Podcasts about TDD

In this two-part episode, Abby shares a harrowing story that begins as a sweet college romance but quickly twists into a nightmare of manipulation, stalking, medical and mental health gaslighting, and a violent sexual assault—one her abuser later weaponized to force his way back into her life. Part one exposes the classic Dogfish playbook: love bombing, isolation, lies, and control. Next week in part two, we enter a whole new level of exploitation, one that may feel disturbingly familiar if you remember our OnlyFans Pimp cases. Trigger warnings: sexual assault/rape, coercive control, mental-health gaslighting, and online sexual exploitation. Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkTake control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/tdd today to get 10% off your first monthThis episode is sponsored by Suvie. Get the smart countertop kitchen robot that refrigerates, cooks, and meal-preps dinner while you're away. Go to Suvie.com/DatingDetectives to start your 100-day risk-free trial and get 16 FREE meals with your order.This episode is sponsored by Wayfair. Refresh your home for less. Shop back-to-routine deals by visiting Wayfair.com.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

BIO:The Reverend Dr. Starlette Thomas is a poet, practical theologian, and itinerant prophet for a coming undivided “kin-dom.” She is the director of The Raceless Gospel Initiative, named for her work and witness and an associate editor at Good Faith Media. Starlette regularly writes on the sociopolitical construct of race and its longstanding membership in the North American church. Her writings have been featured in Sojourners, Red Letter Christians, Free Black Thought, Word & Way, Plough, Baptist News Global and Nurturing Faith Journal among others. She is a frequent guest on podcasts and has her own. The Raceless Gospel podcast takes her listeners to a virtual church service where she and her guests tackle that taboo trinity— race, religion, and politics. Starlette is also an activist who bears witness against police brutality and most recently the cultural erasure of the Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington, D.C. It was erected in memory of the 2020 protests that brought the world together through this shared declaration of somebodiness after the gruesome murder of George Perry Floyd, Jr. Her act of resistance caught the attention of the Associated Press. An image of her reclaiming the rubble went viral and in May, she was featured in a CNN article.Starlette has spoken before the World Council of Churches North America and the United Methodist Church's Council of Bishops on the color- coded caste system of race and its abolition. She has also authored and presented papers to the members of the Baptist World Alliance in Zurich, Switzerland and Nassau, Bahamas to this end. She has cast a vision for the future of religion at the National Museum of African American History and Culture's “Forward Conference: Religions Envisioning Change.” Her paper was titled “Press Forward: A Raceless Gospel for Ex- Colored People Who Have Lost Faith in White Supremacy.” She has lectured at The Queen's Foundation in Birmingham, U.K. on a baptismal pedagogy for antiracist theological education, leadership and ministries. Starlette's research interests have been supported by the Louisville Institute and the Lilly Foundation. Examining the work of the Reverend Dr. Clarence Jordan, whose farm turned “demonstration plot” in Americus, Georgia refused to agree to the social arrangements of segregation because of his Christian convictions, Starlette now takes this dirt to the church. Her thesis is titled, “Afraid of Koinonia: How life on this farm reveals the fear of Christian community.” A full circle moment, she was recently invited to write the introduction to Jordan's newest collection of writings, The Inconvenient Gospel: A Southern Prophet Tackles War, Wealth, Race and Religion.Starlette is a member of the Christian Community Development Association, the Peace & Justice Studies Association, and the Koinonia Advisory Council. A womanist in ministry, she has served as a pastor as well as a denominational leader. An unrepentant academician and bibliophile, Starlette holds degrees from Buffalo State College, Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School and Wesley Theological Seminary. Last year, she was awarded an honorary doctorate in Sacred Theology for her work and witness as a public theologian from Wayland Baptist Theological Seminary. She is the author of "Take Me to the Water": The Raceless Gospel as Baptismal Pedagogy for a Desegregated Church and a contributing author of the book Faith Forward: A Dialogue on Children, Youth & a New Kind of Christianity.  JennyI was just saying that I've been thinking a lot about the distinction between Christianity and Christian supremacy and Christian nationalism, and I have been researching Christian nationalism for probably about five or six years now. And one of my introductions to the concept of it was a book that's based on a documentary that's based on a book called Constantine Sword. And it talked about how prior to Constantine, Christians had the image of fish and life and fertility, and that is what they lived by. And then Constantine supposedly had this vision of a cross and it said, with this sign, you shall reign. And he married the church and the state. And ever since then, there's been this snowball effect of Christian empire through the Crusades, through manifest destiny, through all of these things that we're seeing play out in the United States now that aren't new. But I think there's something new about how it's playing out right now.Danielle (02:15):I was thinking about the doctrine of discovery and how that was the creation of that legal framework and ideology to justify the seizure of indigenous lands and the subjugation of indigenous peoples. And just how part of that doctrine you have to necessarily make the quote, humans that exist there, you have to make them vacant. Or even though they're a body, you have to see them as internally maybe empty or lacking or less. And that really becomes this frame. Well, a repeated frame.Jenny (03:08):Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And it feels like that's so much source to that when that dehumanization is ordained by God. If God is saying these people who we're not even going to look at as people, we're going to look at as objects, how do we get out of that?Danielle (03:39):I don't know. Well, definitely still in it. You can hear folks like Charlie Kirk talk about it and unabashedly, unashamedly turning point USA talk about doctrine of discovery brings me currently to these fishing boats that have been jetting around Venezuela. And regardless of what they're doing, the idea that you could just kill them regardless of international law, regardless of the United States law, which supposedly we have the right to a process, the right to due process, the right to show up in a court and we're presumed innocent. But this doctrine applies to people manifest destiny, this doctrine of discovery. It applies to others that we don't see as human and therefore can snuff out life. And I think now they're saying on that first boat, I think they've blown up four boats total. And on the first boat, one of the ladies is speaking out, saying they were out fishing and the size of the boat. I think that's where you get into reality. The size of the boat doesn't indicate a large drug seizure anyway. It's outside reality. And again, what do you do if they're smuggling humans? Did you just destroy all that human life? Or maybe they're just fishing. So I guess that doctrine and that destiny, it covers all of these immoral acts, it kind of washes them clean. And I guess that talking about Constantine, it feels like the empire needed a way to do that, to absolve themselves.Danielle (05:40):I know it gives me both comfort and makes me feel depressed when I think about people in 300 ad being, they're freaking throwing people into the lion's den again and people are cheering. And I have to believe that there were humans at that time that saw the barbarism for what it was. And that gives me hope that there have always been a few people in a system of tyranny and oppression that are like, what the heck is going on? And it makes me feel like, ugh. When does that get to be more than just the few people in a society kind of society? Or what does a society need to not need such violence? Because I think it's so baked in now to these white and Christian supremacy, and I don't know, in my mind, I don't think I can separate white supremacy from Christian supremacy because even before White was used as a legal term to own people and be able to vote, the legal term was Christian. And then when enslaved folks started converting to Christianity, they pivoted and said, well, no, not all Christians. It has to be white Christians. And so I think white supremacy was birthed out of a long history of Christian supremacy.Danielle (07:21):Yeah, it's weird. I remember growing up, and maybe you had this experience too, I remember when Schindler's List hit the theaters and you were probably too young, but Schindler's listed the theaters, and I remember sitting in a living room and having to convince my parents of why I wanted to see it. And I think I was 16, I don't remember. I was young and it was rated R and of course that was against our values to see rated R movies. But I really wanted to see this movie. And I talked and talked and talked and got to see this movie if anybody's watched Schindler's List, it's a story of a man who is out to make money, sees this opportunity to get free labor basically as part of the Nazi regime. And so he starts making trades to access free labor, meanwhile, still has women, enjoys a fine life, goes to church, has a pseudo faith, and as time goes along, I'm shortening the story, but he gets this accountant who he discovers he loves because his accountant makes him rich. He makes him rich off the labor. But the accountant is thinking, how do I save more lives and get them into this business with Schindler? Well, eventually they get captured, they get found out. All these things happen, right, that we know. And it becomes clear to Schindler that they're exterminating, they're wiping out an entire population.(09:01):I guess I come to that and just think about, as a young child, I remember watching that thinking, there's no way this would ever happen again because there's film, there's documentation. At the time, there were people alive from the Great war, the greatest generation like my grandfather who fought in World War ii. There were other people, we had the live stories. But now just a decade, 12, 13 years removed, it hasn't actually been that long. And the memory of watching a movie like Schindler's List, the impact of seeing what it costs a soul to take the life of other souls like that, that feels so far removed now. And that's what the malaise of the doctrine of Discovery and manifest destiny, I think have been doing since Constantine and Christianity. They've been able to wipe the memory, the historical memory of the evil done with their blessing.(10:06):And I feel like even this huge thing like the Holocaust, the memories being wiped, you can almost feel it. And in fact, people are saying, I don't know if they actually did that. I don't know if they killed all these Jewish peoples. Now you hear more denial even of the Holocaust now that those storytellers aren't passed on to the next life. So I think we are watching in real time how Christianity and Constantine were able to just wipe use empire to wipe the memory of the people so they can continue to gain riches or continue to commit atrocities without impunity just at any level. I guess that's what comes to mind.Jenny (10:55):Yeah, it makes me think of, I saw this video yesterday and I can't remember what representative it was in a hearing and she had written down a long speech or something that she was going to give, and then she heard during the trial the case what was happening was someone shared that there have been children whose parents have been abducted and disappeared because the children were asked at school, are your parents undocumented? And she said, I can't share what I had prepared because I'm caught with that because my grandfather was killed in the Holocaust because his children were asked at school, are your parents Jewish?(11:53):And my aunt took that guilt with her to her grave. And the amount of intergenerational transgenerational trauma that is happening right now, that never again is now what we are doing to families, what we are doing to people, what we are doing to children, the atrocities that are taking place in our country. Yeah, it's here. And I think it's that malaise has come over not only the past, but even current. I think people don't even know how to sit with the reality of the horror of what's happening. And so they just dissociate and they just check out and they don't engage the substance of what's happening.Danielle (13:08):Yeah. I tell a friend sometimes when I talk to her, I just say, I need you to tap in. Can you just tap in? Can you just carry the conversation or can you just understand? And I don't mean understand, believe a story. I mean feel the story. It's one thing to say the words, but it's another thing to feel them. And I think Constantine is a brilliant guy. He took a peaceful religion. He took a peaceful faith practice, people that literally the prior guy was throwing to the lions for sport. He took a people that had been mocked, a religious group that had been mocked, and he elevated them and then reunified them with that sword that you're talking about. And so what did those Christians have to give up then to marry themselves to empire? I don't know, but it seems like they kind of effed us over for eternity, right?Jenny (14:12):Yeah. Well, and I think that that's part of it. I think part of the malaise is the infatuation with eternity and with heaven. And I know for myself, when I was a missionary for many years, I didn't care about my body because this body, this light and momentary suffering paled in comparison to what was awaiting me. And so no matter what happened, it was a means to an end to spend eternity with Jesus. And so I think of empathy as us being able to feel something of ourselves in someone else. If I don't have grief and joy and sorrow and value for this body, I'm certainly not going to have it for other bodies. And I think the disembodiment of white Christian supremacy is what enables bodies to just tolerate and not consider the brutality of what we're seeing in the United States. What we're seeing in Congo, what we're seeing in Palestine, what we're seeing everywhere is still this sense of, oh, the ends are going to justify the means we're all going to, at least I'll be in heaven and everyone else can kind of figure out what they're going to do.I don't know, man. Yeah, maybe. I guess when you think about Christian nationalism versus maybe a more authentic faith, what separates them for youAbiding by the example that Jesus gave or not. I mean, Jesus was killed by the state because he had some very unpopular things to say about the state and the way in which he lived was very much like, how do I see those who are most oppressed and align myself with them? Whereas Christian nationalism is how do I see those who have the most power and align myselves with them?(16:48):And I think it is a question of alignment and orientation. And at the end of the day, who am I going to stand with even knowing and probably knowing that that may be to the detriment of my own body, but I do that not out of a sense of martyrdom, but out of a sense of integrity. I refuse. I think I really believe Jesus' words when he said, what good is it for a man to gain the world and lose his soul? And at the end of the day, what I'm fighting for is my own soul, and I don't want to give that up.Danielle (17:31):Hey, starlet, we're on to not giving up our souls to power.The Reverend Dr.Rev. Dr. Starlette (17:47):I'm sorry I'm jumping from one call to the next. I do apologize for my tardiness now, where were we?Danielle (17:53):We got on the subject of Constantine and how he married the sword with Christianity when it had been fish and fertile ground and et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, that's where we started. Yeah, that's where we started.Starlette (18:12):I'm going to get in where I fit in. Y'all keep going.Danielle (18:14):You get in. Yeah, you get in. I guess Jenny, for me and for you, starlet, the deep erasure of any sort of resemblance of I have to look back and I have to be willing to interrogate, I think, which is what a lot of people don't want to do. I grew up in a really conservative evangelical family and a household, and I have to interrogate, well, one, why did my mom get into that? Because Mexican, and number two, I watched so slowly as there was a celebration. I think it was after Bill Clinton had this Monica Lewinsky thing and all of this stuff happened. My Latino relatives were like, wait a minute, we don't like that. We don't like that. That doesn't match our values. And I remember this celebration of maybe now they're going to become Christians. I remember thinking that as a child, because for them to be a Democrat in my household and for them to hold different values around social issues meant that they weren't necessarily saved in my house and my way because they hadn't fully bought into empire in the way I know Jenny muted herself.(19:31):They hadn't fully bought into empire. And I slowly watched those family members in California kind of give way to conservatism the things that beckoned it. And honestly, a lot of it was married to religion and to what is going on today and not standing up for justice, not standing up for civil rights. I watched the movement go over, and it feels like at the expense of the memory of my grandfather and my great-grandfather who despised religion in some ways, my grandfather did not like going to church because he thought people were fake. He didn't believe them, and he didn't see what church had to do with being saved anyway. And so I think about him a lot and I think, oh, I got to hold onto that a little bit in the face of empire. But yeah, my mind just went off on that rabbit trail.Starlette (20:38):Oh, it's quite all right. My grandfather had similar convictions. My grandmother took the children to church with her and he stayed back. And after a while, the children were to decide that they didn't want to go anymore. And I remember him saying, that's enough. That's enough. You've done enough. They've heard enough. Don't make them go. But I think he drew some of the same conclusions, and I hold those as well, but I didn't grow up in a household where politics was even discussed. Folks were rapture ready, as they say, because they were kingdom minded is what they say now. And so there was no discussion of what was going on on the ground. They were really out of touch with, I'm sending right now. They were out of touch with reality. I have on pants, I have on full makeup, I have on earrings. I'm not dressed modestly in any way, shape, fashion or form.(21:23):It was a very externalized, visible, able to be observed kind of spirituality. And so I enter the spaces back at home and it's like going into a different world. I had to step back a bit and oftentimes I just don't say anything. I just let the room have it because you can't, in my experience, you can't talk 'em out of it. They have this future orientation where they live with their feet off the ground because Jesus is just around the corner. He's right in that next cloud. He's coming, and so none of this matters. And so that affected their political participation and discussion. There was certainly very minor activism, so I wasn't prepared by family members to show up in the streets like I do now. I feel sincerely called. I feel like it's a work of the spirit that I know where to put my feet at all, but I certainly resonate with what you would call a rant that led you down to a rabbit hole because it led me to a story about my grandfather, so I thank you for that. They were both right by the way,Danielle (22:23):I think so he had it right. He would sit in the very back of church sometimes to please my grandmother and to please my family, and he didn't have a cell phone, but he would sit there and go to sleep. He would take a nap. And I have to think of that now as resistance. And as a kid I was like, why does he do that? But his body didn't want to take it in.Starlette (22:47):That's rest as resistance from the Nat Bishop, Trisha Hersey, rest as act of defiance, rest as reparations and taking back my time that you're stealing from me by having me sit in the service. I see that.Danielle (23:02):I mean, Jenny, it seems like Constantine, he knew what to do. He gets Christians on his side, they knew how to gather organically. He then gets this mass megaphone for whatever he wants, right?Jenny (23:21):Yeah. I think about Adrian Marie Brown talks a lot about fractals and how what happens on a smaller scale is going to be replicated on larger scales. And so even though there's some sense of disjoint with denominations, I think generally in the United States, there is some common threads of that manifest destiny that have still found its way into these places of congregating. And so you're having these training wheels really even within to break it down into the nuclear family that James Dobson wanted everyone to focus on was a very, very narrow white, patriarchal Christian family. And so if you rehearse this on these smaller scales, then you can rehearse it in your community, then you can rehearse it, and it just bubbles and bubbles and balloons out into what we're seeing happen, I think.Yeah, the nuclear family and then the youth movements, let us, give us your youth, give us your kids. Send us your kids and your youth to our camps.Jenny (24:46):Great. I grew up in Colorado and I was probably 10 or 11 when the Columbine shooting happened, and I remember that very viscerally. And the immediate conversation was not how do we protect kids in school? It was glorifying this one girl that maybe or maybe did not say yes when the shooters asked, do you still believe in God? And within a year her mom published a book about it. And that was the thing was let's use this to glorify martyrdom. And I think it is different. These were victims in school and I think any victim of the shooting is horrifying. And I think we're seeing a similar level of that martyrdom frenzy with Charlie Kirk right now. And what we're not talking about is how do we create a safer society? What we're talking about, I'm saying, but I dunno. What I'm hearing of the white Christian communities is how are we glorifying Charlie Kirk as a martyr and what power that wields when we have someone that we can call a martyr?Starlette (26:27):No, I just got triggered as soon as you said his name.(26:31):Just now. I think grieving a white supremacist is terrifying. Normalizing racist rhetoric is horrifying. And so I look online in disbelief. I unfollowed and blocked hundreds of people on social media based on their comments about what I didn't agree with. Everything he said, got a lot of that. I'm just not interested. I think they needed a martyr for the race war that they're amping for, and I would like to be delivered from the delusion that is white body supremacy. It is all exhausting. I don't want to be a part of the racial imagination that he represents. It is not a new narrative. We are not better for it. And he's not a better person because he's died. The great Biggie Smalls has a song that says you're nobody until somebody kills you. And I think it's appropriate. Most people did not know who he was. He was a podcaster. I'm also looking kind of cross-eyed at his wife because that's not, I served as a pastor for more than a decade. This is not an expression of grief. There's nothing like anything I've seen for someone who was assassinated, which I disagree with.(28:00):I've just not seen widows take the helm of organizations and given passion speeches and make veil threats to audiences days before the, as we would say in my community, before the body has cooled before there is a funeral that you'll go down and take pictures. That could be arguably photo ops. It's all very disturbing to me. This is a different measure of grief. I wrote about it. I don't know what, I've never heard of a sixth stage of grief that includes fighting. We're not fighting over anybody's dead body. We're not even supposed to do it with Jesus. And so I just find it all strange that before the man is buried, you've already concocted a story wherein opposing forces are at each other's throats. And it's all this intergalactic battle between good and bad and wrong, up and down, white and black. It's too much.(28:51):I think white body supremacy has gotten out of hand and it's incredibly theatrical. And for persons who have pulled back from who've decent whiteness, who've de racialize themselves, it's foolishness. Just nobody wants to be involved in this. It's a waste of time. White body supremacy and racism are wastes of time. Trying to prove that I'm a human being or you're looking right at is a waste of time. And people just want to do other things, which is why African-Americans have decided to go to sleep, to take a break. We're not getting ready to spin our wheels again, to defend our humanity, to march for rights that are innate, to demand a dignity that comes with being human. It's just asinine.(29:40):I think you would be giving more credence to the statements themselves by responding. And so I'd rather save my breath and do my makeup instead because trying to defend the fact that I'm a glorious human being made in the image of God is a waste of time. Look at me. My face is beat. It testifies for me. Who are you? Just tell me that I don't look good and that God didn't touch me. I'm with the finger of love as the people say, do you see this beat? Let me fall back. So you done got me started and I blame you. It's your fault for the question. So no, that's my response to things like that. African-American people have to insulate themselves with their senses of ness because he didn't have a kind word to say about African-American people, whether a African-American pilot who is racialized as black or an African-American woman calling us ignorance saying, we're incompetence. If there's no way we could have had these positions, when African-American women are the most agreed, we're the most educated, how dare you? And you think, I'm going to prove that I'm going to point to degrees. No, I'll just keep talking. It will make itself obvious and evident.(30:45):Is there a question in that? Just let's get out of that. It triggers me so bad. Like, oh, that he gets a holiday and it took, how many years did it take for Martin Luther King Junior to get a holiday? Oh, okay. So that's what I mean. The absurdity of it all. You're naming streets after him hasn't been dead a year. You have children coloring in sheets, doing reports on him. Hasn't been a few months yet. We couldn't do that for Martin Luther King. We couldn't do that for Rosa Parks. We couldn't do that for any other leader, this one in particular, and right now, find that to beI just think it just takes a whole lot of delusion and pride to keep puffing yourself up and saying, you're better than other people. Shut up, pipe down. Or to assume that everybody wants to look like you or wants to be racialized as white. No, I'm very cool in who I'm, I don't want to change as the people say in every lifetime, and they use these racialized terms, and so I'll use them and every lifetime I want to come back as black. I don't apologize for my existence. I love it here. I don't want to be racialized as white. I'm cool. That's the delusion for me that you think everyone wants to look like. You think I would trade.(32:13):You think I would trade for that, and it looks great on you. I love what it's doing for you. But as for me in my house, we believe in melanin and we keep it real cute over here. I just don't have time. I think African-Americans minoritized and otherwise, communities should invest their time in each other and in ourselves as opposed to wasting our breath, debating people. We can't debate white supremacists. Anyway, I think I've talked about that the arguments are not rooted in reason. It's rooted in your dehumanization and equating you with three fifths of a human being who's in charge of measurements, the demonizing of whiteness. It's deeply problematic for me because it puts them in a space of creator. How can you say how much of a human being that's someone? This stuff is absurd. And so I've refuse to waste my breath, waste my life arguing with somebody who doesn't have the power, the authority.(33:05):You don't have the eyesight to tell me if I'm human or not. This is stupid. We're going to do our work and part of our work is going to sleep. We're taking naps, we're taking breaks, we're putting our feet up. I'm going to take a nap after this conversation. We're giving ourselves a break. We're hitting the snooze button while staying woke. There's a play there. But I think it's important that people who are attacked by white body supremacy, not give it their energy. Don't feed into the madness. Don't feed into the machine because it'll eat you alive. And I didn't get dressed for that. I didn't get on this call. Look at how I look for that. So that's what that brings up. Okay. It brings up the violence of white body supremacy, the absurdity of supremacy at all. The delusion of the racial imagination, reading a 17th century creation onto a 21st century. It's just all absurd to me that anyone would continue to walk around and say, I'm better than you. I'm better than you. And I'll prove it by killing you, lynching you, raping your people, stealing your people, enslaving your people. Oh, aren't you great? That's pretty great,Jenny (34:30):I think. Yeah, I think it is. I had a therapist once tell me, it's like you've had the opposite of a psychotic break because when that is your world and that's all, it's so easy to justify and it makes sense. And then as soon as you step out of it, you're like, what the what? And then it makes it that much harder to understand. And this is my own, we talked about this last week, but processing what is my own path in this of liberation and how do I engage people who are still in that world, who are still related to me, who are, and in a way that isn't exhausting for I'm okay being exhausted if it's going to actually bear something, if it's just me spinning my wheels, I don't actually see value in that. And for me, what began to put cracks in that was people challenging my sense of superiority and my sense of knowing what they should do with their bodies. Because essentially, I think a lot of how I grew up was similar maybe and different from how you were sharing Danielle, where it was like always vote Republican because they're going to be against abortion and they're going to be against gay marriage. And those were the two in my world that were the things that I was supposed to vote for no matter what. And now just seeing how far that no matter what is willing to go is really terrifying.Danielle (36:25):Yeah, I agree. Jenny. I mean, again, I keep talking about him, but he's so important to me. The idea that my great grandfather to escape religious oppression would literally walk 1,950 miles and would leave an oppressive system just in an attempt to get away. That walk has to mean something to me today. You can't forget. All of my family has to remember that he did a walk like that. How many of us have walked that far? I mean, I haven't ever walked that far in just one instance to escape something. And he was poor because he couldn't even pay for his mom's burial at the Catholic church. So he said, let me get out of this. And then of course he landed with the Methodist and he was back in the fire again. But I come back to him, and that's what people will do to get out of religious oppression. They will give it an effort and when they can. And so I think it's important to remember those stories. I'm off on my tangent again now because it feels so important. It's a good one.Starlette (37:42):I think it's important to highlight the walking away from, to putting one foot in front of the other, praying with your feet(37:51):That it's its own. You answer your own prayer by getting away from it. It is to say that he was done with it, and if no one else was going to move, he was going to move himself that he didn't wait for the change in the institution. Let's just change directions and get away from it. And I hate to even imagine what he was faced with and that he had to make that decision. And what propelled him to walk that long with that kind of energy to keep momentum and to create that amount of distance. So for me, it's very telling. I ran away at 12. I had had it, so I get it. This is the last time you're going to hit me.Not going to beat me out of my sleep. I knew that at 12. This is no place for me. So I admire people who get up in the dead of night, get up without a warning, make it up in their mind and said, that's the last time, or This is not what I'm going to do. This is not the way that I want to be, and I'm leaving. I admire him. Sounds like a hero. I think we should have a holiday.Danielle (38:44):And then imagine telling that. Then you're going to tell me that people like my grandfather are just in it. This is where it leaves reality for me and leaves Christianity that he's just in it to steal someone's job. This man worked the lemon fields and then as a side job in his retired years, moved up to Sacramento, took in people off death row at Folsom Prison, took 'em to his home and nursed them until they passed. So this is the kind a person that will walk 1,950 miles. They'll do a lot of good in the world, and we're telling people that they can't come here. That's the kind of people that are walking here. That's the kind of people that are coming here. They're coming here to do whatever they can. And then they're nurturing families. They're actually living out in their families what supposed Christians are saying they want to be. Because people in these two parent households and these white families, they're actually raising the kind of people that will shoot Charlie Kirk. It's not people like my grandfather that walked almost 2000 miles to form a better life and take care of people out of prisons. Those aren't the people forming children that are, you'reStarlette (40:02):Going to email for that. The deacons will you in the parking lot for that one. You you're going to get a nasty tweet for that one. Somebody's going to jump off in the comments and straighten you out at,Danielle (40:17):I can't help it. It's true. That's the reality. Someone that will put their feet and their faith to that kind of practice is not traveling just so they can assault someone or rob someone. I mean, yes, there are people that have done that, but there's so much intentionality about moving so far. It does not carry the weight of, can you imagine? Let me walk 2000 miles to Rob my neighbor. That doesn't make any sense.Starlette (40:46):Sounds like it's own kind of pilgrimage.Jenny (40:59):I have so many thoughts, but I think whiteness has just done such a number on people. And I'm hearing each of you and I'm thinking, I don't know that I could tell one story from any of my grandparents. I think that that is part of whiteness. And it's not that I didn't know them, but it's that the ways in which Transgenerational family lines are passed down are executed for people in considered white bodies where it's like my grandmother, I guess I can't tell some stories, but she went to Polish school and in the States and was part of a Polish community. And then very quickly on polls were grafted into whiteness so that they could partake in the GI Bill. And so that Polish heritage was then lost. And that was not that long ago, but it was a severing that happened. And some of my ancestors from England, that severing happened a long time ago where it's like, we are not going to tell the stories of our ancestors because that would actually reveal that this whole white thing is made up. And we actually have so much more to us than that. And so I feel like the social privilege that has come from that, but also the visceral grief of how I would want to know those stories of my ancestors that aren't there. Because in part of the way that whiteness operates,Starlette (42:59):I'm glad you told that story. Diane de Prima, she tells about that, about her parents giving up their Italian ness, giving up their heritage and being Italian at home and being white in public. So not changing their name, shortening their name, losing their accent, or dropping the accent. I'm glad that you said that. I think that's important. But like you said though, if you tell those stories and it shakes up the power dynamic for whiteness, it's like, oh, but there are books how the Irish became White, the Making of Whiteness working for Whiteness, read all the books by David Broer on Whiteness Studies. But I'm glad that you told us. I think it's important, and I love that you named it as a severing. Why did you choose that word in particular?Jenny (43:55):I had the privilege a few years ago of going to Poland and doing an ancestry trip. And weeks before I went, an extended cousin in the States had gotten connected with our fifth cousin in Poland. We share the fifth grandparents. And this cousin of mine took us around to the church where my fifth great grandparents got married and these just very visceral places. And I had never felt the land that my ancestors know in my body. And there was something really, really powerful of that. And so I think of severing as I have been cut off from that lineage and that heritage because of whiteness. And I feel very, very grateful for the ways in which that is beginning to heal and beginning to mend. And we can tell truer stories of our ancestry and where we come from and the practices of our people. And I think it is important to acknowledge the cost and the privilege that has come from that severing in order to get a job that was not reserved for people that weren't white. My family decided, okay, well we'll just play the part. We will take on that role of whiteness because that will then give us that class privilege and that socioeconomic privilege that reveals how much of a construct whitenessStarlette (45:50):A racial contract is what Charles W. Mills calls it, that there's a deal made in a back room somewhere that you'll trade your sense of self for another. And so that it doesn't, it just unravels all the ways in which white supremacy, white body supremacy, pos itself, oh, that we're better. I think people don't say anything because it unravels those lies, those tongue twisters that persons have spun over the centuries, that it's really just an agreement that we've decided that we'll make ourselves the majority so that we can bully everybody else. And nobody wants to be called that. Nobody wants to be labeled greedy. I'm just trying to provide for my family, but at what expense? At who else's expense. But I like to live in this neighborhood and I don't want to be stopped by police. But you're willing to sacrifice other people. And I think that's why it becomes problematic and troublesome because persons have to look at themselves.(46:41):White body supremacy doesn't offer that reflection. If it did, persons would see how monstrous it is that under the belly of the beast, seeing the underside of that would be my community. We know what it costs for other people to feel really, really important because that's what whiteness demands. In order to look down your nose on somebody, you got to stand on somebody's back. Meanwhile, our communities are teaching each other to stand. We stand on the shoulders of giants. It's very communal. It's a shared identity and way of being. Whereas whiteness demands allegiance by way of violence, violent taking and grabbing it is quite the undoing. We have a lot of work to do. But I am proud of you for telling that story.Danielle (47:30):I wanted to read this quote by Gloria, I don't know if you know her. Do you know her? She writes, the struggle is inner Chicano, Indio, American Indian, Molo, Mexicano, immigrant, Latino, Anglo and power working class Anglo black, Asian. Our psyches resemble the border towns and are populated by the same people. The struggle has always been inner and has played out in outer terrains. Awareness of our situation must come before interchanges and which in turn come before changes in society. Nothing happens in the real world unless it first happens in the images in our heads.(48:16):So Jenny, when you're talking, you had some image in your head before you went to Poland, before it became reality. You had some, it didn't start with just knowing your cousin or whatever it happened before that. Or for me being confronted and having to confront things with my husband about ways we've been complicit or engaged in almost like the word comes gerrymandering our own future. That's kind of how it felt sometimes Luis and I and how to become aware of that and take away those scales off our own eyes and then just sit in the reality, oh no, we're really here and this is where we're really at. And so where are we going to go from here? And starlet, you've talked from your own position. That's just what comes to mind. It's something that happens inside. I mean, she talks about head, I think more in feelings in my chest. That's where it happens for me. But yeah, that's what comes to mind.Starlette (49:48):With. I feel like crying because of what we've done to our bodies and the bodies of other people. And we still can't see ourselves not as fully belonging to each other, not as beloved, not as holy.It's deeply saddening that for all the time that we have here together for all the time that we'll share with each other, we'll spend much of it not seeing each other at all.Danielle (50:57):My mind's going back to, I think I might've shared this right before you joined Starla, where it was like, I really believe the words of Jesus that says, what good is it for someone to gain the world and lose their soul? And that's what I hear. And what I feel is this soul loss. And I don't know how to convince other people. And I don't know if that's the point that their soul is worth it, but I think I've, not that I do it perfectly, but I think I've gotten to the place where I'm like, I believe my interiority is worth more than what it would be traded in for.(51:45):And I think that will be a lifelong journey of trying to figure out how to wrestle with a system. I will always be implicated in because I am talking to you on a device that was made from cobalt, from Congo and wearing clothes that were made in other countries. And there's no way I can make any decision other than to just off myself immediately. And I'm not saying I'm doing that, but I'm saying the part of the wrestle is that this is, everything is unresolved. And how do I, like what you said, Danielle, what did you say? Can you tune into this conversation?Jenny (52:45):Yeah. And how do I keep tapping in even when it means engaging my own implication in this violence? It's easier to be like, oh, those people over there that are doing those things. And it's like, wait, now how do I stay situated and how I'm continually perpetuating it as well, and how do I try to figure out how to untangle myself in that? And I think that will be always I,Danielle (53:29):He says, the US Mexican border as like an open wound where the third world grates against the first and bleeds. And before a scab forms it hemorrhages again, the lifeblood of two worlds. Two worlds merging to form a third country, a border culture. Borders are set up to define the places that are safe and unsafe to distinguish us from them. A border is a dividing line, a narrow strip along a steep edge. A borderland is a vague and undetermined place created by the emotional residue of an unnatural boundary is it is in a constant state of transition. They're prohibited and forbidden arts inhabitants. And I think that as a Latina that really describes and mixed with who my father is and that side that I feel like I live like the border in me, it feels like it grates against me. So I hear you, Jenny, and I feel very like all the resonance, and I hear you star led, and I feel a lot of resonance there too. But to deny either thing would make me less human because I am human with both of those parts of me.(54:45):But also to engage them brings a lot of grief for both parts of me. And how does that mix together? It does feel like it's in a constant state of transition. And that's partly why Latinos, I think particularly Latino men bought into this lie of power and played along. And now they're getting shown that no, that part of you that's European, that part never counted at all. And so there is no way to buy into that racialized system. There's no way to put a down payment in and come out on the other side as human. As soon as we buy into it, we're less human. Yeah. Oh, Jenny has to go in a minute. Me too. But starlet, you're welcome to join us any Thursday. Okay.Speaker 1 (55:51):Afternoon. Bye. Thank you. Bye bye.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Part Two of Claudia's saga is a tangle of exes, receipts, and survival. As she builds a new life with Amber, a DM from Melissa's ex, Taylor, detonates everything—revealing a secret alliance with Amber's ex Kayla, alleged surveillance, financial doxxing, and the chilling photo of Claudia's child sleeping on a mattress in a closet. We follow Claudia into court, through “defensive parenting,” and onto TikTok where a web of past partners surfaces a pattern of control; veganism-as-control, forced tattoos, baby pressure, and love-bombing wrapped in “toxic positivity.” Trigger warning: child endangerment and abuse are discussed.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode is sponsored by Miracle Made. Get silver-infused, bacteria-fighting, temperature-regulating sheets and towels at TryMiracle.com/TDD and use code TDD to save over 40% and claim a FREE 3-piece towel set.Make this spring your most delicious yet with Green Chef. Head to greenchef.com/50datingdetectives and use code 50datingdetectives to get 50% off your first month, then 20% off for two months with free shipping.Get control of your finances with Monarch Money. Use code DATING at MonarchMoney.com in your browser (not app) for half off your first year!This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Paired. Head to PAIRED.COM/DATINGDETECTIVES to get a 7-day free trial and 25% off if you sign up for a subscription.This episode is sponsored by SKIMS. Shop the SKIMS Fits Everybody Collection at SKIMS.com. After you place your order be sure to let them know we sent you by filling out the survey!This episode is sponsored by Baked By Melissa. Get 20% off your order by going to bakedbymelissa.com/datingdetectives. ***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Bio: Jenny - Co-Host Podcast (er):I am Jenny! (She/Her) MACP, LMHCI am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Somatic Experiencing® Practitioner, Certified Yoga Teacher, and an Approved Supervisor in the state of Washington.I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need. By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens!I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as consistently engaging my entanglement with white saviorism). I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias' and privilege in the work that I do. I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality.I am immensely grateful for the teachers, healers, therapists, and friends (and of course my husband and dog!) for the healing I have been offered. I strive to pay it forward with my clients and students. Few things make me happier than seeing people live freely in their bodies from the inside out!Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in CounselingEmail: asolidfoundationcoaching@gmail.comPhone:  +1.5104686137Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.comI have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me…     Danielle (00:17):Welcome to the Arise podcast, and as you know, we're continuing on the intersection of where our reality meets and today it's where our reality meets our resilience. And how do we define that? A lovely conversation. It's actually just part one. I'm thinking it's going to be multiple conversations. Jenny McGrath, LMHC, and Rebecca Wheeler, Walston. Join me again, look for their bios in the notes and tag along with us. I thought we could start by talking about what do we see as resilience in this moment and what do we see, maybe like I'm saying a lot now, what do we see as the ideal of that resilience and what is actually accessible to us? Because I think there's these great quotes from philosophers and our ancestors, but we don't know all their day-to-day life. What did it look like day to day? So I'm wondering, just kind of posing that for you all, what do you think about resilience? How does it intersect with this moment and how do we kind of ground ourselves in reality?Rebecca (01:33):Rebecca? Coffee helps. Coffee definitely helps. It does. I have coffee here.(01:42):Me too. I would probably try to start with something of a working definition of the word. One of the things that I think makes this moment difficult in terms of a sense of what's real and what's not is the way that our vocabulary is being co-opted or redefined without our permission. And things are being defined in ways that are not accurate or not grounded in reality. And I think that that's part of what feels disorienting in this moment. So I would love for us to just start with a definition of the word, and I'm guessing the three of us will have different versions of that.(02:25):So if I had to start, I would say that I used to think about resilience as sort of springing back to a starting point. You started in this place and then something knocked you off of where you started. And resilience is about making it back to the place that you were before you got knocked off of your path. And my definition of that word has shifted in recent years to a sense of resilience that is more about having come through some difficulty. I don't actually bounce back to where I started. I actually adopt a new normal new starting place that has integrated the lessons learned or the strengths or the skills developed for having gone through the process of facing something difficult.Jenny, I love that. I feel like it reminds me of a conversation you and I had many moons ago, Rebecca, around what is flourishing and kind of these maybe idealistic ideas around something that isn't actually rooted in reality. And I love that that definition of resistance feels so committed to being in reality. And I am not going to erase everything I went through to try to get back to something, but I'm actually going to, my word is compost or use what I've gone through to bring me to where I am. Now, this will not surprise either of you. I think when I think of resilience, I think somatically and how we talk about a nervous system or a body and what allows resilience. And so one of the ways that that is talked about is through heart rate variability and our ability for our heart to speed up and slow down is one of the defining factors of our body's ability to stay resilient.(04:42):Can I come to a state of rest and I think about how rest is a privilege that not all bodies have. And so when I think about resilience in that way, it makes me think about how do I actually zoom out of resilience being about an individual body and how do we form kind of more of a collective sense of resilience where we are coworking to create a world where all bodies get to return to that level of safety and rest and comfort and aren't having to stay in a mode of vigilance. And so I see resilience almost as one of the directions that I'm wanting to move and not a place that we're at yet collectively. Collectively meaning whoJenny (05:41):I say collectively, I'm hoping for a world that does not exist yet where it gets to be all bodies, human and non-human, and the ways in which we allow ecosystems to rest, we allow a night sky to rest. We allow ourselves to become more in rhythm with the activation and deactivation that I think nature teaches us of more summer and winter and day and night and these rhythms that I think we're meant to flow in. But in a productive capitalistic society where lights are never turned off and energy is only ever thought about and how do we produce more or different energy, I'm like, how do we just stop producing energy and just take a nap? I'm really inspired by the nat ministry of just like rest actually is a really important part of resistance. And so I have these lofty ideals of what collective means while being aware that we are coming to that collective from very different places in our unresolved historical relational field that we're in.I would say there's a lot I'd love about that, all of that. And I, dear use of the word lofty, I feel that word in this moment that causes me to consider the things that feel like they're out of reach. I think the one thing that I would probably add to what you said is I think you used the phrase like returning to a state of rest when you were talking about heart rate and body. And if we're talking about an individual ability to catch my breath and slow it down, I can track with you through the returning to something. But when we go from that individual to this collective space where I live in the hyphenated existence of the African American story, I don't have the sense of returning to something because African hyphen American people were born as a people group out of this horrific traumatic space called the transatlantic slave trade.(08:15):And so I don't know that our bodies have ever known a sense of rest on us soil. And I don't know that I would feel that that sense of rest on the continent either having been there several times, that sense of something happened in the transition from Africa to America, that I lost my africanness in such a way that doesn't feel like a place of rest. And sometimes we talk about it in terms of for certain people groups, land is connected to that sense of rest for Native Americans, for indigenous people, for certain Latin cultures. But for the African American person, there's not a connection to land. There's only maybe a connection to the water of the transatlantic slave trade. And then water is never at rest. It's always moving, right? So I stay with you and then I lose you and then I come back to you.Danielle (09:25):That feels like a normal part of healing. I stay with you, I lose you and then I come back to you. I think resilience for me has meant living in this family with my partner who's a first generation immigrant and then having kids and having to remind myself that my kids were raised by both of us with two wildly different perspectives even though we share culture. And so there's things that are taught, there's things that are learned that are very different lessons that I cannot be surprised about what might be a form of resilience for my child and what might be a struggle where there isn't groundwork there.(10:22):I remember when Luis came to the United States, his parents said to him, we'll see you in a couple weeks. And I used to think my young self, I was like, what does that mean? They don't think we're going to stay married or whatever. But his dad also told him, be careful up there, be careful. And if Luis were here to tell this story, he said it many times. He's like, I didn't come to the United States because I thought it was the best thing that could happen to me. I came to marry you, I came to be with you, but I didn't come here because it was the best thing to happen to me. When his family came up for the wedding, they were very explicit. We didn't come here, we're not in awe. They wanted to make sure people knew we're okay. And I know there's wildly different experiences on the spectrum of this, but I think about that a lot. And so resilience has looked really different for us.(11:23):I think it is forming that bond with people that came here because they needed work or a different kind of setting or change to people that are already here. And I think as you witness our culture now, handle what's happening with kidnappings, what's happening with moms, what's happening with people on the street, snatching people off the street. You see that in the last election there was a wide range of voters on our side on the Latinx Latina side, and there was a spectrum of thoughts on what would actually help our community. But now you're seeing that quickly contract and basically like, oh shit, that wasn't helpful. So I think my challenge to myself has been how do I stay? Part of resilience for me is how do I stay in contact with people that I love that don't share in the same view as humanity as me? And I think that's an exercise that our people have done for a long time.Rebecca (12:38):Say that last sentence one more time, Danielle.Danielle (12:42):Just like, how do I stay in contact with people that I love that don't share my view of humanity, that don't share the valuation of humanity? How do I stay in contact with them because I actually see them as human too. And I think that's been a part of our resiliency over many years in Latin America just due to constant interference from European governmental powers.Rebecca (13:16):That partly why I think I asked you to repeat that last sentence is because I think I disconnected for a minute and I want to be mindful of disconnecting over a sentence that is about staying connected to people who don't value the same things that I value or don't value or see humanity in the way that I see in humanity. And I'm super aware, part of the conversation that's happening in the black community in this moment, particularly with black women, is the idea that we're not going to step to the forefront in this one. We are culturally, collectively, consciously making a decision to check out. And so if you see any of this on social media, there's a sense of like we're standing around learning line dances from Beyonce about boots on the ground instead of actively engaging in this moment. And so I have some ambivalence about whether or not does that count as resilience, right?(14:28):And is it resilient in a way that's actually kind to us as a people? And I'm not sure if I have an answer to that yet. In my mind the jury is still out, right? There are things about black women stepping to the side that make me really nervous because that's not who we are. It's not historically who we have been. And I am concerned that what we're doing is cutting off parts of ourself. And at the same time, I can tell you that I have not watched a news program. I have not watched a single news recording of anything since November 2nd, 2024.Danielle (15:13):I can just feel the tension of all of our different viewpoints, not that we're in conflict with one another, but we're not exactly on the same page either. And not that we're not on the same team, but I can feel that pull. Anybody else feel that?Rebecca (15:35):Does it feel like, I would agree we're not on the same page and in some ways I don't expect that we would be because we're so different. But does that pull feel like an invitation to clash or does it feel like it is actually okay to not necessarily be on the same page?Danielle (16:06):Well, I think it feels both things. I think I feel okay with it because I know you all and I'm trying to practice that. And I also think I feel annoyed that we can't all be on the same page some sense of annoyance. But I don't know if that annoyance is from you all. I feel the annoyance. It feels like noise from the outside to me a bit. It is not you or Jenny, it's just a general annoyance with how hard this shit is.Rebecca (16:45):And I definitely feel like one of the things I think that happens around supremacy and whiteness on us soil is the larger narrative that we have to be at odds with one another that there isn't a capacity or a way that would allow us to differentiate and not villainize or demonize the person that you are or the community that you are differentiated from. And I think we haven't always had the space collectively to think about what does it mean to walk alongside, what does it mean to lock arms? What does it mean to pull resources even with someone that we're on the same team, but maybe not at the same vantage point.Jenny (17:47):I have two thoughts. Three, I guess I'm aware even my continual work around internalized white saviorism, that part of my ambivalence is like where do you each need me? Are we aligning with people or are we saying f you to people? And I can feel that within me and it takes so much work to come back to, I might actually have a third way that's different than both of you, and that gets to be okay too. But I'm aware that there is that tendency to step into over alignment out of this savior movement and mentality. So just wanted to name that that is there.(18:41):And as you were sharing Rebecca, the word that came to mind for me was orthodoxy. And I don't often think of white supremacy without thinking of Christian supremacy because they've been so interlocked for so long. And the idea that there are many faith traditions including the Jewish tradition that has a mid rash. And it's like we actually come to scripture and we argue about it because we have different viewpoints and that's beautiful and lovely because the word of God is living in all of us. And when orthodoxy came around, it's like, no, we have to be in 100% agreement of these theologies or these doctrines and that's what it means to be Christian. And then eventually I think that's what it means to be a white Christian. So yeah, I think for folks like myself who were immersed in that world growing up, it feels existentially terrifying because it's like if I don't align with the orthodoxy of whiteness or Christianity or capitalism, it viscerally feels like I am risking eternity in hell. And so I better just play it safe and agree with whatever my pastor tells me or whatever the next white Republican male tells me. And so I feel that the weight of what this mindset of orthodoxy has done,Rebecca (20:21):I'm like, I got to take a breath on that one because I got a lot of stuff going on internally. And I think, so my faith tradition has these sort of two parallels. There's this space that I grew up in was rooted in the black church experience and then also in college that introduction into that white evangelical parachurch space where all of that orthodoxy was very, very loud and a version of Christianity that was there is but one way to do all of these things and that one way looks like this. And if you're doing anything other than that, there's something wrong with what you're doing. And so for me, there are parts of me that can walk with you right through that orthodoxy door. And there's also this part of me where the black church experience was actually birthed in opposition to that orthodoxy, that same orthodoxy that said I was three fifths of a person, that same orthodoxy that said that my conversion to Christianity on earth did not change my status as an enslaved person.(21:39):And so I have this other faith tradition that is built around the notion that that orthodoxy is actually a perversion of authentic Christian expression. And so I have both of those things in my body right now going, and so that's just my reaction I think to what you said. I feel both of those things and there are times when I will say to my husband, Ooh, my evangelical illness is showing because I can feel it, like want to push back on this flexibility and this oxygen that is in the room through the black church experience that says I get to come as I am with no apology and no explanation, and Jesus will meet me wherever that is end of conversation, end debate.Danielle (22:46):I don't know. I had a lot of thoughts. They're all kind of mumbled together. I think we have a lot of privilege to have a conversation like this because when you leave a space like this that's curated with people, you've had relationships over a long time maybe had disagreements with or rubbed scratchy edges with. When you get out into the world, you encounter a lot of big feelings that are unprocessed and they don't have words and they have a lot of room for interpretation. So you're just getting hit, hit, hit, hit and the choices to engage, how do you honor that person and engage? You don't want to name their feelings, you don't want to take over interpreting them, but it feels in this moment that we're being invited to interpret one another's feelings a lot. But here we're putting language to that. I mean Jenny and I talked about it recently, but it turns into a lot of relational cutoffs.(23:55):I can't talk to you because X, I can't talk to you because X, I don't want to read your news article. And a lot of times they're like, Danielle, why did you read Charlie Kirk? And I was like, because I have family that was interested in it. I've been watching his videos for years because I wanted to understand what are they hearing, what's going on. Yeah, did it make me mad sometimes? Absolutely. Did I turn it off? Yeah, I still engage and then I swing and listen to the Midas touch or whatever just like these opposite ends and it gives me great joy to listen to something like that. But when we're out and about, if we're saying resiliency comes through connection to our culture and to one another, but then with all the big feelings you can feel just the formidable splits anywhere you go, the danger of speaking of what's unspeakable and you get in a room with people you agree with and then suddenly you can talk. And I don't know how many of us are in rooms where resilience is actually even required in a conversation.Rebecca (25:15):It makes me think about the idea that we don't have good sort of rules of engagement around how to engage someone that thinks differently than we do and we have to kind of create them on the fly. When you were talking Danielle about the things you choosing to read Charlie Kirk, or not choosing to listen to something that reflects your values or not, and the invitation in this moment or the demand that if someone thinks differently than me, it is just a straight cutoff. I'm not even willing to consider that there's any kind of veracity in your viewpoint whatsoever. And I think we don't have good theology, we don't have good vocabulary, we don't have good rules of engagement about when is it okay to say, actually, I'm going to choose not to engage you. And what are the reasons why we would do that that are good reasons, that are wise reasons that are kind reasons? And I think the country is in a debate about that and we don't always get the answer to those questions and because we don't get it right then there's just relational debris all over the floor.Jenny (26:47):I'm just thinking about, I am far from skilled or perfect at this by any means, but I feel like these last couple years I live in a van and one of the reasons that we decided to do that was that we would say, I think I know two things about every state, and they're probably both wrong. And I think for our own reasons, my husband and I don't like other people telling us what is true. We like to learn and discover and feel it in our own bodies. And so it's been really important for us to literally physically go to places and talk to people. And I think it has been a giant lesson for me on nuance and that nobody is all one thing. And often there's people that are on the completely opposite side of the aisle, but we actually look at the same issues and we have a problem with the issues. We just have heard very, very different ways of fixing or tending to those issues. And so I think often if we can come down to what are we fearing, what is happening, what is going on, we can kind of wrestle there a little bit more than jumping to, so what's the solution? And staying more in that dirt level.(28:22):And not always perfectly of course, but I think that's been one of the things in an age of the algorithm and social media, it is easy for me to have very broad views of what certain states or certain people groups or certain voting demographics are like. And then when you are face to face, you have to wrestle. And I love that when you said, Daniel, I see them as human. And it's like, oh yeah, it's so much easier to see someone as not human when I'm learning about them from a TikTok reel or from a news segment than when I'm sharing a meal with them and hearing about their story and how they've come to believe the things they've believed or wrestle with the things they're wrestling with.Rebecca (29:14):Two things. One, I think what you're talking about Jenny, is the value of proximity. The idea that I've stepped close to someone into their space, into their world with a posture of I'm going to just listen. I'm going to learn, I'm going to be curious. And in that curiosity, open handed and open-minded about all kinds of assumptions and presuppositions. And you're right, we don't do that a lot. The second thing that I was thinking when you mentioned getting into the dirt, I think you used the phrase like staying in the darker sort of edges of some of those hard conversations. That feels like a choice towards resiliency. To me, the idea that I will choose of my will to stay in the room, in the relationship, in the conversation long enough to wrestle long enough to learn something long enough to have my perspective challenged in a real way that makes me rethink the way I see something or the lens that I have on that particular subject.(30:33):And I don't think we could use more of that in this moment. I think probably our friendship, what started as a professional connection that has over the years developed into this friendship is about the choice to stay connected and the choice to stay in the conversation. I know when I first met you, we were going to do a seminar together and someone said, oh yeah, Jenny's getting ready to talk on something about white people. And I had 8,000 assumptions about what you were going to say and all kinds of opinions about my assumptions about what you're going to say. And I was like, well, I want to talk to her. I want to know what is she going to say? And really it was because if she says anything crazy, we right, we all have problems, me and you, right? And the graciousness with which you actually entered that conversation to go like, okay, I'm listening. What is it that you want to ask me? I think as part of why we're still friends, why we're still colleagues, why we still work together, is that invitation from you, that acceptance of that invitation from me. Can we wrestle? Can we box over this and come out the other side having learned something about ourselves and each other?Jenny (32:10):And I think part of that for me, what I have to do is reach for my lineage pre whiteness. And I have this podcast series that I love called Search for the Slavic Soul that has made me make more sense to myself. And there's this entire episode on why do Slavic people love to argue? And I'm like, oh, yes. And I think part of that has been me working out that place of white woman fragility that says, if someone questions my ideas or my values or my views, I need to disintegrate and I need to crumple. And so I'm actually so grateful for that time and for how we've continued to be able to say, I don't agree with that, and we can still be okay and we can still kind of navigate because of course we're probably going to see things differently based on our experiences.Danielle (33:16):That is exactly the problem though is because there's a lot of, not everybody, but there's a lot of folks that don't really have a sense of self or have a sense of their own body. So there's so much enmeshment with whoever they're with. So when then confronted and mesh, I mean merging, we're the same self. It adds protection. Think about it. We all do it. Sometimes I need to be people just like me. It's not bad. But if that sense of merging will cost you the ability to connect to someone different than you or that sees very different than you, and when they confront that, if they're quote alone physically or alone emotionally in that moment, they'll disappear or they'll cut you off or they'll go away or it comes out as violence. I believe it comes out as shootings as we could go on with the list of violent outcomes that kind of cut, that kind of separation happens. So I mean, I'm not like Jenny, that's awesome. And it doesn't feel that typical to me.Rebecca (34:36):What you just described to me, Daniel, I have been going like, isn't that whiteness though, the whole point, and I'm talking about whiteness, not the people who believe themselves to be white, to quote taishi quotes. The whole point of whiteness is this enmeshment of all these individual European countries and cultures and people into this one big blob that has no real face on it. And maybe that's where the fragility comes from. So I love when Jenny said, it makes me reach back into my ancestry pre whiteness, and I'm going, that needs to be on a t-shirt. Please put it on a t-shirt, a coffee mug, a hat, something. And so that's sort of Taishi Coates concept of the people who believe themselves to be white is a way to put into words this idea that that's not actually your story. It's not actually your ancestry.(35:43):It's not actually your lineage. It's the disruption and the eraser and the stealing of your lineage in exchange for access to power and privilege. And I do think it is this enmeshment, this collective enmeshment of an entire European continent. And perhaps you're right that that's where the fragility comes from. So when you try to extract a person or a people group out of that, I don't know who I am, if absent this label of whiteness, I don't know what that means by who I am now I'm talking like I know what I'm talking about. I'm not white, so let me shut up. Maybe that means Jenny, you could say if I misunderstood you misquoted, you misrepresented allJenny (36:31):The No, no, I think yeah, I'm like, yes, yes, yes. And it also makes me go back to what you said about proximity. And I think that that is part of the design of whiteness, and even what you were saying about faith, and you can correct me, but my understanding is that those who could vote and those who could own property were Christian. And then when enslaved black people started converting to Christianity and saying, I can actually take pieces of this and I can own this and I can have this white enslavers had a conundrum because then they couldn't use the word Christian in the way that they used to justify chattel slavery and wealth disparity. So they created the word white, and so then it was then white people that could own property and could vote. And so what that did was also disable a class solidarity between lower socioeconomic white bodies and newly emancipated black bodies to say, no, we're not in this together struggling against those that own the highest wealth. I have this pseudo connection with bodies that hold wealth because of the color of my skin. And so then it removes both my proximity to my own body and my proximity to bodies that are probably in a similar struggle, very disproportionate and different than my own because I have white privilege. But it also then makes white bodies align with the system instead of co-conspirator with bodies working towards liberation.Rebecca (38:32):I do think that that's true. I think there's a lot of data historically about the intentional division that was driven between poor people in the colonies and wealthy people in the colonies. And I say people because I think the class stratification included enslaved Africans, free Africans, poor whites, native American people that were there as well. And so I think that there was a kind of diversity there in terms of race and ethnicity and nationality that was intentionally split and then reorganize along racial lines. The only thing that I would add on the Christian or the faith spectrum is that there's a book by Jamar TBE called The Color of Compromise. And one of the things that he talks about in that book is the religious debate that was happening when the colonies were being organized around if you proselytize your slave and they convert, then do you have to emancipate them?(39:43):Because in England, the religious law was that you could not enslave or in put a believer into servitude in any form, whether that's indentured servitude or slavery. Well, I got a problem with the premise, the idea that if you were not a Christian in medieval England, I could do whatever I wanted to. The premise is wrong in the first place. The thought that you could own or indenture a human to another human is problematic on its face. So I just want to name that the theological frame that they brought from England was already jacked, and then they superimposed it in the colonies and made a conscious decision at the House of Burgess, which is about a mile from where I'm sitting, made a conscious decision to decide that your conversion to Christianity does not impact any part of your life on earth. It only impacts your eternity. So all you did was by fire insurance, meaning that your eternity is now in heaven and not in hell, but on earth I can do whatever I want. And that split that perversion of the gospel at that moment to decide that the kingdom of God has nothing to do with what is happening on earth is something we're still living with today. Right? It's the reason why you have 90 some odd percent of evangelicals voting for all kinds of policies that absolutely violate every tenant of scripture in the Bible and probably every other holy book on the planet, and then still standing in their pulpit on Sunday morning and preaching that they represent God. It's ridiculous. It's offensive.Danielle (41:38):I just feel like this is proving my point. So I feel like other people may have said this, but who's kept talking about this exchange for whiteness? Bro, we're in the timeline where Jesus, their Jesus said yes to the devil. He's like, give me the power, give me the money, give me the bread. And if you want to come into their religion, you have to trade in how God actually made you for to say yes to that same temptation for power and money and whatever, and erase your face's. One comment. Second comment is this whole thing about not giving healthcare to poor families.(42:20):I hesitate to say this word, but I'm reminded of the story of the people that first came here from England, and I'm aware that they were starving at one point, and I'm aware that they actually ate off their own people, and that's partly how they survived. And it feels the same way to me, here, give us the power, give us the control, give us the money. And we're like, the fact is, is that cutting off healthcare for millions of Americans doesn't affect immigrants at all. They're not on those plans. It affects most poor whites and they have no problem doing it and then saying, come, give me your bread. Come give me your cheese. Come give me your vote. It's like a self flesh eating virus, and(43:20):I am almost speechless from it. There's this rumor that migrants have all the health insurance, and I know that's not true because Luis legally came here. He had paperwork, he was documented, got his green card, then got his citizenship, and even after citizenship to prove we could get health insurance, when he got off his job, we had to not only submit his passport, but his certificate that was proof of citizenship through the state of Washington, a very liberal state to get him on health insurance. So I know there's not 25 million immigrants in the country falsifying those records. That's just not happening. So I know that that's a lie from personal experience, but I also know that the point is, the point is the lie. The point is to tell you the lie and actually stab the person in the back that you're lying to. That just feels dark to me. I went off, sorry, that's kind of off the subject of resilience.Rebecca (44:36):No, I have two reactions to that. The first one is when we were talking just a few minutes ago about the exchange for power and privilege, it's actually a false invitation to a table that doesn't actually exist. That's what, to me is darkest about it. It's the promise of this carrot that you have no intention of ever delivering. And people have so bought into the lie so completely that it's like you didn't even stop to consider that, let alone the ability to actually see this is not actually an invitation to anything. So that is partly what I think about. And if you read the book, the Sum of Us, it actually talks about Sum, SUM, the sum of us. It actually talks about the cost, the economic cost of racism, and each chapter is about a different industry and how there were racist policies set up in that industry.(45:49):And basically the point the author makes is that at every turn, in order to subjugate and oppress a community of color, white people had to sacrifice something for themselves and oppress themselves and disenfranchise themselves in order to pull it off. And they did it anyway because essentially it is wealthy white, it's affluent white male that ends up with the power and the privilege, and everybody else is subjugated and oppressed. And that's a conversation. I don't understand it. The gaslighting is got to be astronomical and brilliant to convince an entire community of people to vote against themselves. So I'm over there with you on the limb, Danielle,Jenny (47:16):Yeah, I am thinking about Fox News and how most impoverished white communities, that is the only source of information that they have because there isn't proximity and there isn't a lot of other conversations. It is exactly what Tucker Carlson or all of these people are spewing. And I think fear is such a powerful tool, and honestly, I don't see it as that different than early indoctrination around hell and using that to capitulate people into the roles that the church wanted them. And so it's like things might be bad now, but there are going to be so much worse quote because of the racial fear mongering of immigrants, of folks of color, of these people coming to take your jobs that if you can work, people who are already struggling into such a frenzy of fear, I think they're going to do things drastically vote for Trump because they think he's going to save the economy because that's what they're hearing, regardless of if that is even remotely true, and regardless of the fact that most white bodies are more likely to be climate refugees than they are to be billionaire friends withRebecca (48:59):So then what does resilience look like in the face of that kind of fearmongering?Jenny (49:24):This is maybe my nihilistic side. I don't know that things are going to get better before they get far worse. And I think that's where the resilience piece comes in. I was like, how do we hold on to our own humanity? How do we hold onto our communities? How do we hold onto hope in the reality that things will likely get worse and worse and worse before some type of reckoning or shift happens,Rebecca(50:23):Yeah. There's actually, I saw an Instagram post a couple months ago, and I want to say it was Bruce Springsteen and he was just lamenting the erosion of art and culture and music in this moment that there's not art in the Oval Office, that there's not, and just his sense that art and music and those kinds of expressions, actually, I don't think he used the word defiance, but that's the sentiment that I walked away with. That is a way to amplify our humanity in a way that invites proximity to cultures and people that are different than you. This whole argument that we're having right now about whether this election of Bad Bunny makes any sense and the different sort of arguments about what the different sides that people have taken on that, it's hilarious. And then there's something about it that feels very real.Danielle (51:31):Yeah, I had someone told me, I'm not watching it because he's a demonic Marxist. I was like, can you be a Marxist and be in the entertainment industry anyway? Clearly, we're going to have to talk about this again. I wrote an essay for good faith media and I was just, I couldn't wrap it up. And they're like, that's okay. Don't wrap it up. It's not meant to be wrapped up. So maybe that's how our conversation is too. I dunno. Jenny, what are you thinking?Jenny (52:13):I have many thoughts, mostly because I just watched one battle after another last night, and I don't want to give any spoilers away, but I feel like it was a really, it's a very million trigger warnings piece of art that I think encapsulates so much of what we're talking about and sort of this transgenerational story of resilience and what does it mean whether that is my own children or other children in this world to lean into, this probably isn't going to end with me. I'm probably not going to fix this. So how do we continue to maybe push the ball forward in the midst of the struggle for future generations? And I think I'm grateful for this space. I think this is one of the ways that we maybe begin to practice and model what proximity and difference and resilience can look like. And it's probably not always going to be easy or there's going to be struggles that probably come even as we work on engaging this together. And I'm grateful that we get to engage this together.Danielle (53:35):Well, we can always continue our thoughts next week. That's right. Yeah, Rebecca. Okay, I'll be locked in, especially because I said it in the podcast.Rebecca (53:48):I know. I do agree with that. Jenny, I particularly agree having this conversation, the three of us intentionally staying in each other's lives, checking on each other, checking in with each other, all that feels like this sort of defiant intentional resilience, particularly in a moment in history where things that have been our traditional expression of resilience have been cut off like it In recent US history, any major change happened, usually started on the college campus with public protests and public outcry, and those avenues have been cut off. It is no longer safe to speak out on a college campus. People are losing their degrees, they're getting kicked out of colleges, they're getting expelled from colleges for teachers are getting fired for expressing viewpoints that are not in line with the majority culture at this moment. And so those traditional avenues of resilience, I think it was an intentional move to go after those spaces first to shut down what we would normally do to rally collectively to survive a moment. And so I think part of what feels hard in this moment is we're having to reinvent them. And I think it's happening on a micro level because those are the avenues that we've been left with, is this sort of micro way to be resistant and to be resilient.Danielle (55:31):As you can see, we didn't finish our conversation this round, so check out the next episode. After this, we'll be wrapping up this conversation or at least continuing it. And at the end in the notes, their resources, I encourage you to connect with community, have conversations, give someone a hug that you trust and love and care for, and looking forward to having you join us.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

AI Assisted Coding: Pachinko Coding—What They Don't Tell You About Building Apps with Large Language Models, With Alan Cyment In this BONUS episode, we dive deep into the real-world experience of coding with AI. Our guest, Alan Cyment, brings honest perspectives from the trenches—sharing both the frustrations and breakthroughs of using AI tools for software development. From "Pachinko coding" addiction loops to "Mecha coding" breakthroughs, Alan explores what actually works when building software with large language models. From Thermomix Dreams to Pachinko Reality "I bought into the Thermomix coding promise—describe the whole website and it would spit out the finished product. It was a complete disaster." Alan started his AI coding journey with high expectations, believing he could simply describe a complete application and receive production-ready code. The reality was far different. What he discovered instead was an addictive cycle he calls "Pachinko coding" (Pachinko, aka Slot Machines in Japan)—repeatedly feeding error messages back to the AI, hoping each iteration would finally work, while burning through tokens and time. The AI's constant reassurances that "this time I fixed it" created a gambling-like feedback loop that left him frustrated and out of pocket, sometimes spending over $20 in API credits in a single day. The Drunken PhD with Amnesia "It felt like working with a drunken PhD with amnesia—so wise and so stupid at the same time." Alan describes the maddening experience of anthropomorphizing AI tools that seem brilliant one moment and completely lost the next. The key breakthrough came when he stopped treating the AI as a person and started seeing it as a function that performs extrapolations—sometimes accurate, sometimes wildly wrong. This mental shift helped him manage expectations and avoid the "rage coding" that came from believing the AI should understand context and maintain consistency like a human collaborator. Making AI Coding Actually Work "I learned to ask for options explicitly before any coding happens. Give me at least three options and tell me the pros and cons." Through trial and error, Alan developed practical strategies that transformed AI from a frustrating Pachinko machine into a useful tool: Ask for options first: Always request multiple approaches with pros and cons before any code is generated Use clover emoji convention: Implement a consistent marker at the start of all AI responses to track context Small steps and YAGNI principles: Request tiny, incremental changes rather than large refactoring Continuous integration: Demand the AI run tests and checks after every single change Explicit refactoring requests: Regularly ask for simplification and readability improvements Take two steps back: When stuck in a loop, explicitly tell the AI to simplify and start fresh Choose the right tech stack: Use technologies with abundant training data (like Svelte over React Native in Alan's experience) The Mecha Coding Breakthrough "When it worked, I felt like I was inside a Lego Mecha robot—the machine gave me superpowers, but I was still the one in control." Alan successfully developed a birthday reminder app in Swift in just one day, despite never having learned Swift. He made architectural decisions and guided the development without understanding the syntax details. This experience convinced him that AI represents a genuine new level of abstraction in programming—similar to the jump from assembly language to high-level languages, or from procedural to object-oriented programming. You can now think in English about what you want, while the AI handles the accidental complexity of syntax and boilerplate. The Cost Reality Check "People writing about vibe coding act like it's free. But many people are going to pay way more than they would have paid a developer and end up with empty hands." Alan provides a sobering cost analysis based on his experience. Using DeepSeek through Aider, he typically spends under $1 per day. But when experimenting with premium models like Claude Sonnet 3.5, he burned through $5 in just minutes. The benchmark comparisons are revealing: DeepSeek costs $4 for a test suite, DeepSeek R1 plus Sonnet costs $16, while Open AI's O1 costs $190. For non-developers trying to build complete applications through pure "vibe coding," the costs can quickly exceed what hiring a developer would cost—with far worse results. When Thermomix Actually Works "For small, single-purpose scripts that I'm not interested in learning about and won't expand later, the Thermomix experience was real." Despite the challenges, Alan found specific use cases where AI truly delivers on the "just describe it and it works" promise. Processing Zoom attendance logs, creating lookup tables for video effects, and other single-file scripts worked remarkably well. The pattern: clearly defined context, no need for ongoing maintenance, and simple enough to verify the output without deep code inspection. For these thermomix moments, AI proved genuinely transformative. The Pachinko Trap and Tech Stack Matters "It became way more stable when I switched to Svelte from React Native and Flutter, even following the same prompting practices. The AI is just more proficient in certain tech stacks." Alan discovered that some frameworks and languages work dramatically better with AI than others, likely due to the amount of training data available. His e-learning platform attempts with React Native and Flutter kept breaking, but switching to Svelte with web-based deployment became far more stable. This suggests a crucial strategy: choose mainstream, well-documented technologies when planning AI-assisted projects. From Coding to Living with AI Alan has completely stopped using traditional search engines, relying instead on LLMs for everything from finding technical documentation to getting recommendations for books based on his interests. While he acknowledges the risk of hallucinations, he finds the semantic understanding capabilities too valuable to ignore. He's even used image analysis to troubleshoot his father's cable TV problems and figure out hotel air conditioning controls. The Agile Validation "My only fear is confirmation bias—but the conclusion I see other experienced developers reaching is that the only way to make LLMs work is by making them use agility. So look at who's dead now." Alan notes the irony that the AI coding tools that actually work all require traditional software engineering best practices: small iterations, test-driven development, continuous integration, and explicit refactoring. The promise of "just describe what you want" falls apart without these disciplines. Rather than replacing software engineering principles, AI tools seem to validate their importance. About Alan Cyment Alan Cyment is a consultant, trainer, and facilitator based in Buenos Aires, specializing in organizational fluency, agile leadership, and software development culture change. A Certified Scrum Trainer with deep experience across Latin America and Europe, he blends agile coaching with theatre-based learning to help leaders and teams transform. You can link with Alan Cyment on LinkedIn.

AI Assisted Coding: Agile Meets AI—How to Code Fast Without Breaking Things, With Llewellyn Falco In this BONUS episode we explore the practice of coding with AI—not just the buzzwords, but the real-world experience. Our guest, Llewellyn Falco, has been learning by doing, exploring the space of AI-assisted coding from the experimental and intuitive—what some call vibecoding—to the more structured world of professional, world-class software engineering. This is a conversation for practitioners who want to understand what's actually happening on the ground when we code with AI. Understanding Vibecoding "You can now program without looking at code. When you're in that space, vibecoding is the word we're using to say, we are programming in a way that does not relate to programming last year." The software development landscape shifted dramatically in early 2025. Vibecoding represents a fundamental change in how we create software—programming without constantly looking at the code itself. This approach removes many traditional limitations around technology, language, and device constraints, allowing developers to move seamlessly between different contexts. However, this power comes with responsibility, as developers can now move so fast that traditional safety practices become even more critical. From Concept to Working App in 15 Minutes "We wrote just a markdown page of ‘here's what we want this to look like'. And then we fed that to Claude Code. And 15 minutes later we had a working app on the phone." At the Agile 2025 conference in Denver, Llewellyn participated in a hackathon focused on helping psychologists prevent child abuse. Working with customer Amanda, a psychologist, and data scientist Rachel, the team identified a critical problem: clinicians weren't using the most effective parenting intervention technique because recording 60 micro-interactions in 5 minutes was too difficult and time-consuming. The team's approach embodied lean startup principles turned up to eleven. After understanding the customer's needs through exposition and conversation, they created a simple markdown specification and used Claude Code to generate a working mobile app in just 15 minutes. When Amanda tested it, she was moved to tears—after 20 years of trying to make progress on this problem, she finally had hope. Over three days, the team released 61 iterations, constantly getting feedback and refining the solution. Iterative Development Still Matters When Coding With AI "We need to see things working to know what to deliver next. That's never going to change. Unless you're building something that's already there." The team's success wasn't about writing a complete requirements document upfront. Instead, they delivered a minimal viable product quickly, tested it with real users, and iterated based on feedback. This agile approach proved essential even—or especially—when working with AI. One breakthrough came when Amanda used the number keypad instead of looking at her phone screen. With her full attention on the training video she'd watched hundreds of times, she noticed an interaction she had missed before. At that moment, the team knew they had created real value, regardless of what additional features they might build. Good Engineering Practices Without Looking at Code "We asked it to do good engineering practices, even though we didn't really understand what it was doing. We just sort of say, okay, yeah, that seems sensible." A critical moment came when the code had grown large and complex. Rather than diving into the code themselves, Llewellyn and his partner Lotta asked the AI to refactor the code to make a panel easy to switch before actually making the change. They verified functionality worked through manual testing but never looked at how the refactoring was implemented. This demonstrates that developers can maintain good practices like refactoring and clean architecture even when working at a higher level of abstraction. Key practices for AI-assisted development include: Don't accept AI's default settings—they're based on popularity, not best practices Prime the AI with the practices you want it to use through configuration files Tell AI to be honest and help you avoid mistakes, not just be agreeable Ask for explanations of architecture and evaluate whether approaches make sense Keep important decisions documented in markdown files that can be referenced later “The documentation is now executable. I can turn it into code” "The documentation is now executable. I can turn it into code. If I had to choose between losing my documentation or losing my code, I would keep the docs. I think I could regenerate the code pretty easily." In this new paradigm, documentation takes on new importance—it becomes the specification from which code can be regenerated. The team created and continuously updated markdown files for project context, architecture, and individual features. This practice allowed them to reset AI context when needed while maintaining continuity of their work. The workflow was bidirectional: sometimes they'd write documentation first and have AI generate code; other times they'd build features iteratively and have AI update the documentation. This approach using tools like Super Whisper for voice-to-text made creating and maintaining documentation effortless. Remove Deterministic Tasks from AI "AI is sloppy. It's inconsistent. Everything that can be deterministic—take it out. AI can write that code. But don't make AI do repetitive tasks." A crucial principle emerged: anything that needs to be consistently and repeatedly correct should be automated with traditional code, not left to AI. The team wrote shell scripts for tasks like auto-incrementing version numbers and created git hooks to ensure these scripts ran automatically. They also automated file creation with dates at the top, removing the need for AI to track temporal information. This principle works both ways—deterministic logic should be removed from underneath AI (via scripts and hooks) and from above AI (via orchestration scripts that call AI in loops with verification steps in between). Anti-Patterns to Avoid "The biggest anti-pattern is you're not committing frequently. I really want the ability to drop my context and revert my changes at a moment's notice." The primary anti-pattern when coding with AI is failing to commit frequently to version control. The ability to quickly drop context, revert changes, and start fresh becomes essential when working at this pace. Getting important decisions into documentation files and code into version control enables rapid experimentation without fear of losing work. Other challenges include knowing when to focus on the right risks. The team had to navigate competing priorities—customers wanted certain UX features, but the team identified data collection and storage as the critical unknown risk that needed solving first. This required diplomatic firmness in prioritizing work based on technical risk assessment rather than just user requests. Essential Tools for AI-Assisted Development "If you are using AI by going to a website, that is not what we are talking about here." To work effectively with AI, developers need agentic tools that can interact with files and run programs, not just chat interfaces. Recommended tools include: Claude Code (CLI for file interaction) Windsurf (VS Code-like interface) Cursor (code editor with AI integration) RooCode (alternative option) Super Whisper (voice-to-text transcription for Mac) Most developers working at this level have disabled safety guards, allowing AI to run programs without asking permission each time. While this carries risks, committing frequently to version control provides the safety net needed for rapid experimentation. The Power of Voice Interaction "Most of the time coding now looks like I'm talking. It's almost like Star Trek—you're talking to the computer and then code shows up." Using voice transcription tools like Super Whisper transformed the development experience. Speaking instead of typing not only increased speed but also changed the nature of communication with AI. When speaking, developers naturally provide more context and explanation than when typing, leading to better results from AI systems. This proved especially valuable in a crowded conference room where Super Whisper could filter out background noise and accurately transcribe the speakers' voices. The tool enabled natural, conversational interaction with development tools. Balancing Speed with Safety Over three days, the team released 61 times without comprehensive automated testing, focusing instead on validating user value through manual testing with the actual customer. However, after the hackathon, Llewellyn added automated testing by creating a test plan document through voice dictation, having AI clean it up and expand it, then generating Puppeteer tests and shell scripts to run them—all in about 40 minutes. This demonstrates a pragmatic approach: when exploring and validating with users, manual testing may suffice; but for ongoing maintenance and confidence, automated tests remain valuable and can be generated efficiently with AI assistance. The Future of Software Development "If you want to make something, there could not be a better time than now." The skills required for effective software development are shifting. Understanding how to assess risk, knowing when to commit code, maintaining good engineering practices, and finding creative solutions within system constraints remain critical. What's changing is that these skills are now applied at a higher level of abstraction, with AI handling much of the detailed implementation. The space is evolving rapidly—practices that work today may need adjustment in months. Developers need to continuously experiment, stay current with new tools and models, and develop instincts for working effectively with AI systems. The fundamentals of agile development—rapid iteration, customer feedback, risk assessment, and incremental delivery—matter more than ever. About Llewellyn Falco Llewellyn is an Agile and XP (Extreme Programming) expert with over two decades of experience in Java, OO design, and technical practices like TDD, refactoring, and continuous delivery. He specializes in coaching, teaching, and transforming legacy code through clean code, pair programming, and mob programming. You can link with Llewellyn Falco on LinkedIn.

Happy Dating Detectives Monday! On this weeks episode we dive into Part 1 of Claudia's wild Dogfish saga—a whirlwind Twitter romance with a charismatic “positive vegan stud” that fast-tracks to moving states, a proposal while she's still secretly married, love-bombing, isolation, money grabs, rushed fertility plans, a pandemic pregnancy, and a frightening domestic dispute… all before a shocking twist: two exes allegedly teaming up behind the scenes. Trigger warning for child-related and physical abuse. This is a two-parter with a big debrief next week—send thoughts and theories, and as always, trust your femme-tuition.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkTake control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/tdd today to get 10% off your first month.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Ava. Rebuild your credit fast with no interest, no credit check, with AVA. Download the AVA app and use promo code DATING.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

AI Assisted Coding: Beyond AI Code Assistants: How Moldable Development Answers Questions AI Can't With Tudor Girba In this BONUS episode, we explore Moldable Development with Tudor Girba, CEO of feenk.com and creator of the Glamorous Toolkit. We dive into why developers spend over 50% of their time reading code—not because they want to, but because they lack the answers they need. Tudor shares how building contextual tools can transform software development, making systems truly understandable and enabling decisions at the speed of thought. The Hidden System: A Telco's Three-Year Quest "They had a system consisting of five boxes, but they could only enumerate four. If this is your level of awareness about what is reality around you, you have almost no chance of systematically affecting that reality." Tudor opens with a striking case study from a telecommunications company that spent three years and hundreds of person-years trying to optimize a data pipeline. Despite massive effort and executive mandate, the pipeline still took exactly one day to process data—no improvement whatsoever. When Tudor's team investigated, they asked for an architecture diagram. The team drew four boxes representing their system. But when Tudor's team started building tools to mirror this architecture back from the actual code, they discovered something shocking: there was an entire fifth system between the first and second boxes that nobody knew existed. This missing system was likely the bottleneck they'd been trying to optimize for three years. Why Reading Code Doesn't Scale "Developers spend more than 50% of their time reading code. The problem is that our systems are typically larger than anyone can read, and by the time you finish reading, the system has already changed many times." The real issue isn't the time spent reading—it's that reading is the most manual, least scalable way to extract information from systems. When developers read code, they're actually trying to answer questions so they can make decisions. But a 250,000-line system would take one person-month to read at high speed, and the system changes constantly during that time. This means everything you learned yesterday becomes merely a hypothesis, not a reliable answer. The fundamental problem is that we cannot perceive anything in a software system except through tools, yet we've never made how we read code an explicit, optimizable activity. The Context Problem: Why Generic Tools Fail "Software is highly contextual, which means we can predict classes of problems people will have, but we cannot predict specific problems people will have." Tudor draws a powerful parallel with testing. Nobody downloads unit tests from the web and applies them to their system—that would be absurd. Instead, we download test frameworks and build tests contextually for our specific system, encoding what's valuable about our particular business logic. Yet for almost everything else in software development, we download generic tools and expect them to work. This is why teams have tens of thousands of static analysis warnings they ignore, while a single failing test stops deployment. The test encodes contextual value; the generic warning doesn't. Moldable Development extends this principle: every question about your system should be answered by a contextual tool you build for that specific question. Tools That Mirror Your Mental Model "Whatever you draw on the whiteboard—that's your mental model. But as soon as the system exists, we want the system to mirror you back that thing. We make it the job of the system to show our mental model back to us." When someone draws an architecture diagram on a whiteboard, they're not documenting the system—they're documenting their beliefs about the system. The diagram represents wishes when drawn before the system exists, but beliefs when drawn after. Moldable Development flips this: instead of humans reading code and creating approximations, the system itself generates the visualization directly from the actual code. This eliminates the layers of belief and inference. Whether you're looking at high-level architecture, data lineage across multiple technologies, performance bottlenecks, or business domain structure, you build small tools that extract and present exactly the information you need from the system as it actually is. The Test-Driven Development Parallel "Testing was a way to find some kind of class of answers. But there are many other questions we have, and the question is: is there a systematic way to approach arbitrary questions?" Tudor explains that Moldable Development applies test-driven development principles to all forms of system understanding. Just as we write tests after we understand the functionality we need, we build visualization and analysis tools after we understand the questions we need answered. Both approaches share key characteristics: they're built contextually for the specific system, created by developers during development, and composed of many small tools that collectively model the system. The difference is that TDD focuses on functional decomposition and known expectations, while Moldable Development addresses architecture, security, domain structure, performance, and any other perspective where functional tests aren't the most useful decomposition. From Thousands of Features to Thousands of Tools "In my development environment, I don't have features. I have thousands of tools that coexist. Development environments should be focused not on what exists out of the box, but on how quickly you can create a contextual tool." Traditional development environments offer dozens of features—buttons, plugins, generic views. But Moldable Development environments contain thousands of micro-tools, each answering a specific question about a specific system. The key is making these tools composable and fast to create. Rather than building monolithic tools that try to handle every scenario, you build small inspectors that show one perspective on one object or concept. These inspectors chain together naturally as you drill down from high-level questions to detailed investigations. You might have one inspector showing test failures grouped by exception type, another showing PDF document comparisons, another showing cluster performance, and another showing memory usage—all coexisting and available when needed. The Real Bottleneck To Learning A System: Time to the Next Question "Once you do this, you will see that the interesting bottleneck is in the time to the next interesting question. This is by far the most interesting place to be spending energy." When you commoditize access to answers through contextual tools, something remarkable happens: the bottleneck shifts from getting answers to asking better questions. Right now, because answers come so slowly through manual reading and analysis, we rarely exercise the skill of formulating good questions. We make decisions based on gut feelings and incomplete data because we can't afford to dig deeper. But when answers arrive at the speed of thought, you can explore, follow hunches, test hypotheses, and develop genuine insight. The conversation between person and system becomes fluid, enabling decision-making based on actual evidence rather than belief. Moldable Development in Practice: The Lifeware Case "They are investing in software engineering as their competitive advantage. They have 150,000 tests that would take 10 days to run on a single machine, but they run them in 16 minutes distributed across AWS." Tudor shares a powerful case study of Lifeware, a life insurance software company that was featured in Kent Beck's "Test-Driven Development by Example" in 2002 with 4,000 tests. Today they have 150,000 tests and have fully adopted Moldable Development as their core practice. Their business model is remarkable: they take data from insurance companies, throw away the old systems, and reverse-engineer new systems by TDD-ing the business—replaying history to produce pixel-identical documents. They've deployed Glamorous Toolkit as their sole development environment across 100+ developers. Their approach demonstrates that Moldable Development isn't just a research concept but a practical competitive advantage that scales to large teams and complex systems. Why AI Doesn't Solve This Problem "When you ask AI, you will get exactly the same kind of answers. The answer comes quickly, but you will not know whether this is accurate, whether this represents the whole thing, and you definitely do not have an explanation as to why the answer is the way it is." In the age of AI code assistants, it might seem like language models could solve the problem of understanding systems. But Tudor explains why they can't. When you ask an AI about your architecture, you get an opinion—fast but unverifiable. Just like asking a developer to draw the architecture on a whiteboard, you receive filtered information without knowing if it's complete or accurate. Moldable Development, by contrast, extracts answers deterministically from the actual system. Software systems have almost no ambiguity in meaning—they're mathematical, not linguistic. We don't need probabilistic interpretation of source code; we need precise extraction and presentation. The tools you build give you not just answers but explanations of how those answers were derived from the actual system state. Scaling Through Language, Not Features "You need a new kind of development environment where the goal is to create tools much quicker. You need some sort of language in which to express development environments." The technical challenge of Moldable Development is enabling thousands of tools to coexist productively. This requires a fundamentally different approach to development environments. Instead of adding features—buttons and menu items that quickly become overwhelming—you need a language for expressing tools and a system for composing them. Glamorous Toolkit demonstrates this through its inspector architecture, where any object can define custom views that appear contextually. These views compose naturally as you navigate through your investigation, reusing earlier perspectives while adding new ones. The environment becomes a medium for tool creation, not just a collection of pre-built features. Making the Invisible Visible "We cannot perceive anything in a software system except through a tool. If that's so important, then the ability to control that shape is probably kind of important too." Software has no inherent shape—it's just data. Every perception we have of it comes through some tool that renders it into a form we can reason about. This means tools aren't nice-to-have accessories; they're fundamental to our ability to work with software at all. The text editor showing code is a tool. The debugger showing variables is a tool. But these are generic tools built once and reused everywhere, which means they show generic perspectives. What if we could control the shape of our software as easily as we write it? What if the system could show us exactly the view we need for exactly the question we have? That's the promise of Moldable Development. About Tudor Girba Tudor Girba is CEO of feenk.com and creator of Moldable Development. He leads the team behind Glamorous Toolkit, a novel IDE that helps developers make sense of complex systems. His work focuses on transforming how teams understand, navigate, and modernize legacy software through custom, insightful tools. Tudor and Simon Wardley are writing a book about Moldable Development which you can get at: https://moldabledevelopment.com/, and read more about in this Medium article. You can link with Tudor Girba on LinkedIn.

Danielle (00:20):Welcome to the Arise podcast, conversations about reality and talking a lot about what that means in the context of church, faith, race, justice, religion, all the things. Today, I'm so honored to have Sarah Van Gelder, a community leader, an example of working and continuing to work on building solidarity and networks and communication skills and settling into her lane. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Hey, Sarah, it's so good to be with you. And these are just casual conversations, and I do actual minimal editing, but they do get a pretty good reach, so that's exciting. I would love to hear you introduce yourself. How do you introduce yourself these days? Tell me a little bit about who you are. Okay.Sarah (01:14):My name is Sarah Van Gelder and I live in Bremer and Washington. I just retired after working for the Suquamish Tribe for six years, so I'm still in the process of figuring out what it means to be retired, doing a lot of writing, a certain amount of activism, and of course, just trying to figure out day to day, how to deal with the latest, outrageous coming from the administration. But that's the most recent thing. I think what I'm most known for is the founding yes magazine and being the editor for many years. So I still think a lot about how do we understand that we're in an era that's essentially collapsing and something new may be emerging to take its place? How do we understand what this moment is and really give energy to the emergence of something new? So those are sort of the foundational questions that I think about.Danielle (02:20):Okay. Those are big questions. I hadn't actually imagined that something new is going to emerge, but I do agree there is something that's collapsing, that's disintegrating. As you know, I reached out about how are we thinking about what is reality and what is not? And you can kind of see throughout the political spectrum or community, depending on who you're with and at what time people are viewing the world through a specific lens. And of course, we always are. We have our own lens, and some people allow other inputs into that lens. Some people are very specific, what they allow, what they don't allow. And so what do we call as reality when it comes to reality and politics or reality and faith or gender, sexuality? It's feeling more and more separate. And so that's kind of why I reached out to you. I know you're a thinker. I know you're a writer, and so I was wondering, as you think about those topics, what do you think even just about what I've said or where does your mind go?Sarah (03:32):Yeah. Well, at first when you said that was the topic, I was a little intimidated by it because it sounded a little abstract. But then I started thinking about how it is so hard right now to know what's real, partly because there's this very conscious effort to distort reality and get people to accept lies. And I think actually part of totalitarian work is to get people to just in the Orwellian book 1984, the character had to agree that two plus two equals five. And only when he had fully embraced that idea could he be considered really part of society.(04:14):So there's this effort to get us to accept things that we actually know aren't true. And there's a deep betrayal that takes place when we do that, when we essentially gaslight ourselves to say something is true when we know it's not. And I think for a lot of people who have, I think that's one of the reasons the Republican party is in such trouble right now, is because so many people who in previous years might've had some integrity with their own belief system, have had to toss that aside to adopt the lies of the Trump administration, for example, that the 2020 election was stolen. And if they don't accept those lies, they get rejected from the party. And once you accept those lies, then from then on you have betrayed yourself. And in many ways, you've betrayed the people who trust you. So it's a really tough dilemma sort of at that political level, even for people who have not bought into the MAGA mindset, or I do think of it as many people have described as a cult.(05:31):Now, even for people who have not bought into that, I think it's just really hard to be in a world where so many fundamental aspects of reality are not shared with people in your own family, in your own workplace, in your own community. I think it's incredibly challenging and we don't really know, and I certainly don't know how to have conversations. In fact, this is a question I wanted to ask you to have conversations across that line of reality because there's so much places where feelings get hurt, but there's also hard to reference back to any shared understanding in order to start with some kind of common ground. It feels like the ground is just completely unreliable. But I'd love to hear your thoughts about how you think about that.Danielle (06:33):It's interesting. I have some family members that are on the far, far, including my parent, well, not my parents exactly, but my father, and I've known this for a while. So prior to what happened in a couple weeks ago with the murder of an activist, I had spent a lot of time actually listening to that activist and trying to understand what he stood for, what he said, why my family was so interested in it. I spent time reading. And then I also was listening to, I don't know if you're familiar with the Midas Touch podcast? Yeah. So I listened to the Midas Brothers, and they're exact opposites. They're like, one is saying, you idiot, and the other one is like, oh, you're an idiot. And so when I could do it, when I had space to do it, it was actually kind of funny to me.(07:34):Sometimes I'm like, oh, that's what they think of someone that thinks like me. And that's when that guy says, calls them an idiot. I feel some resonance with that. So I did that a lot. However, practically speaking, just recently in the last couple months, someone reached out to me from across the political ideology line and said, Hey, wouldn't it be fun if we got together and talked? We think really differently. We've known each other for 20 years. Could you do that? So I said, I thought about it and I was like, yeah, I say this, I should act on it. I should follow through. So I said, okay, yeah, let's meet. We set up a time. And when you get that feeling like that person's not going to show up, but you're also feeling like, I don't know if I want them to show up.(08:24):Am I really going to show up? But it's kind of like a game of chicken. Well, I hung in there longer, maybe not because I wanted to show up, but just because I got distracted by my four kids and whatnot, and it was summer, and the other person did say, oh, I sprained my ankle. I can't have a conversation with you. I was like, oh, okay. And they were like, well, let me reschedule. So I waited. I didn't hear back from them, and then they hopped onto one of my Facebook pages and said some stuff, and I responded and I said, Hey, wait a minute. I thought we were going to have a conversation in person. And it was crickets, it was silence, it was nothing. And then I was tagged in some other comments of people that I would consider even more extreme. And just like, this is an example of intolerance.(09:13):And I was like, whoa, how did I get here? How did I get here? And like I said, I'm not innocent. I associate some of the name calling and I have those explicit feelings. And I was struck by that. And then in my own personal family, we started a group chat and it did not go well. As soon as we jumped into talking about immigration and ice enforcement and stuff after there were two sides stated, and then the side that was on the far right side said, well, there's no point in talking anymore. We're not going to convince each other. And my brother and I were like, wait a minute, can we keep talking? We're not going to convince each other, but how can we just stop talking? And it's just been crickets. It's been silence. There's been nothing. So I think as you ask me that, I just feel like deep pain, how can we not have the things I think, or my perception of what the other side believes is extremely harmful to me and my family. But what feels even more harmful is the fact that we can't even talk about it. There's no tolerance to hear how hurtful that is to us or the real impact on our day-to-day life. And I think this, it's not just the ideology, but it's the inability to even just have some empathy there. And then again, if you heard a guy like Charlie Kirk, he didn't believe in empathy. So I have to remember, okay, maybe they don't even believe in empathy. Okay, so I don't have an answer. What about you?Sarah (11:03):No, I don't either. Except to say that I think efforts that are based on trying to convince someone of a rational argument don't work because this is not about analysis or about rationality, it's about identity, and it's about deep feelings of fear and questions of worthiness. And I think part of this moment we're in with the empire collapsing, the empire that has shorn up so much of our way of life, even people who've been at the margins of it, obviously not as much, but particularly people who are middle class or aspiring to be middle class or upper, that has been where we get our sense of security, where we get our sense of meaning. For a lot of white people, it's their sense of entitlement that they get to have. They're entitled to certain kinds of privileges and ways of life. So if that's collapsing and I believe it is, then that's a very scary time and it's not well understood. So then somebody comes along who's a strong man like Trump and says, not only can I explain it to you, but I can keep you safe. I can be your vengeance against all the insults that you've had to live with. And it's hard to give that up because of somebody coming at you with a rational discussion.(12:36):I think the only way to give that up is to have something better or more secure or more true to lean into. Now that's really hard to do because part of the safety on the right is by totally rejecting the other. And so my sense is, and I don't know if this can possibly work, but my sense is that the only thing that might work is creating nonpolitical spaces where people can just get to know each other as human beings and start feeling that yes, that person is there for me when things are hard and that community is there for me, and they also see me and appreciate who I am. And based on that kind of foundation, I think there's some hope. And so when I think about the kind of organizing to be doing right now, a lot of it really is about just saying, we really all care about our kids and how do we make sure they have good schools and we all need some good healthcare, and let's make sure that that's available to everybody. And just as much as possible keeps it within that other realm. And even maybe not even about issues, maybe it's just about having a potluck and enjoying food together.Danielle (14:10):What structures or how do you know then that you're in reality? And do you have an experience of actually being in a mixed group like that with people that think wildly different than you? And how did that experience inform you? And maybe it's recently, maybe it's in the past. Yeah,Sarah (14:32):So in some respects, I feel like I've lived that way all my life,(14:44):Partly because I spent enough time outside the United States that when I came home as a child, our family lived in India for a year. And so when I came home, I just had this sense that my life, my life and my perceptions of the world were really different than almost everybody else around me, but the exception of other people who'd also spent a lot of time outside the us. And somehow we understood each other pretty well. But most of my life, I felt like I was seeing things differently. And I don't feel like I've ever really particularly gained a lot of skill in crossing that I've tended to just for a lot of what I'm thinking about. I just don't really talk about it except with a few people who are really interested. I don't actually know a lot about how to bridge that gap, except again, to tell stories, to use language that is non-academic, to use language that is part of ordinary people's lives.(16:01):So yes, magazine, that was one of the things that I focused a lot on is we might do some pretty deep analysis, and some of it might include really drawing on some of the best academic work that we could find. But when it came to what we were going to actually produce in the magazine, we really focused in on how do we make this language such that anybody who picks this up who at least feels comfortable reading? And that is a barrier for some people, but anybody who feels comfortable reading can say, yeah, this is written with me in mind. This is not for another group of people. This is written for me. And then part of that strategy was to say, okay, if you can feel that way about it, can you also then feel comfortable sharing it with other people where you feel like they're going to feel invited in and they won't feel like, okay, I'm not your audience.(16:57):I'm not somebody you're trying to speak to. So that's pretty much, I mean, just that whole notion of language and telling stories and using the age old communication as human beings, we evolved to learn by stories. And you can tell now just because you try to tell a kid some lesson and their eyes will roll, but if you tell them a story, they will listen. They won't necessarily agree, but they will listen and it will at least be something they'll think about. So stories is just so essential. And I think that authentic storytelling from our own experience that feels like, okay, I'm not just trying to tell you how you should believe, but I'm trying to say something about my own experience and what's happened to me and where my strength comes from and where my weaknesses and my challenges come from as well.Yeah, you mentioned that, and I was thinking about good stories. And so one of the stories I like to tell is that I moved to Suquamish, which is as an Indian reservation, without knowing really anything about the people I was going to be neighbors with. And there's many stories I could tell you about that. But one of them was that I heard that they were working to restore the ability to dig clams and dies inlet, which is right where silver Dial is located. And I remember thinking that place is a mess. You're never going to be able to have clean enough water because clams require really clean water. They're down filtering all the crap that comes into the water, into their bodies. And so you don't want to eat clams unless the water's very clean. But I remember just having this thought from my perspective, which is find a different place to dig clamps because that place is a mess.(19:11):And then years later, I found out it was now clean enough that they were digging clamps. And I realized that for them, spending years and years, getting the water cleaned up was the obvious thing to do because they think in terms of multiple generations, and they don't give up on parts of their water or their land. So it took years to do it, but they stayed with it. And so that was really a lesson for me in that kind of sense of reality, because my sense of reality is, no, you move on. You do what the pioneers did. One place gets the dust bowl and you move to a different place to farm. And learning to see from the perspective of not only other individuals, but other cultures that have that long millennia of experience in place and how that shifts things. It's almost like to me, it's like if you're looking at the world through one cultural lens, it's like being a one eyed person. You certainly see things, but when you open up your other eye and you can start seeing things in three dimensions, it becomes so much more alive and so much more rich with information and with possibilities.Danielle (20:35):Well, when you think about, and there's a lot probably, how do you apply that to today or even our political landscape? We're finding reality today.Sarah (20:48):Well, I think that the MAGA cult is very, very one eyed. And again, because that sense of safety and identity is so tied up in maintaining that they're not necessarily going to voluntarily open a second eye. But if they do, it would probably be because of stories. There's a story, and I think things like the Jimmy Kimmel thing is an example of that.(21:21):There's a story of someone who said what he believed and was almost completely shut down. And the reason that didn't happen is because people rose up and said, no, that's unacceptable. So I think there's a fundamental belief that's widespread enough that we don't shut down people for speech unless it's so violent that it's really dangerous. We don't shut people down for that. So I think when there's that kind of dissonance, I think there's sometimes an opening, and then it's really important to use that opening, not as a time to celebrate that other people were wrong and we were right, but to celebrate these values that free speech is really important and we're going to stand up for it, and that's who we are. So we get back to that identity. You can feel proud that you were part of this movement that helped make sure that free speech is maintained in the United States. Oh, that'sDanielle (22:26):Very powerful. Yeah, because one side of my family is German, and they're the German Mennonites. They settled around the Black Sea region, and then the other side is Mexican. But these settlers were invited by Catherine the Great, and she was like, Hey, come over here. And Mennonites had a history of non-violence pacifist movement. They didn't want to be conscripted into the German army. And so this was also attractive for them because they were skilled farmers and they had a place to go and Russia and farm. And so that's why they left Germany, to go to Russia to want to seek freedom of their religion and use their farming skills till the soil as well as not be conscripted into violent political movements. That's the ancestry of the side of my family that is now far.(23:29):And I find, and of course, they came here and when they were eventually kicked out, and part of that them being kicked out was then them moving to the Dakotas and then kicking out the native tribes men that were there on offer from the US government. So you see the perpetuation of harm, and I guess I just wonder what all of that cost my ancestors, what it cost them to enact harm that they had received themselves. And then there was a shift. Some of them went to World War II as conscientious objectors, a couple went as fighters.(24:18):So then you start seeing that shift. I'm no longer, I'm not like a pacifist. You start seeing the shift and then we're to today, I don't know if those black sea farmers that moved to Russia would be looking down and being good job. Those weren't the values it seems like they were pursuing. So I even, I've been thinking a lot about that and just what does that reality mean here? What separations, what splitting has my family had to do to, they changed from these deeply. To move an entire country means you're very committed to your values, uproot your life, even if you're farming and you're going to be good at it somewhere else, it's a big deal.Sarah (25:10):Oh, yeah. So it also could be based on fear, right? Because I think so many of the people who immigrated here were certainly my Jewish heritage. There is this long history of pilgrims and people would get killed. And so it wasn't necessarily that for a lot of people that they really had an option to live where they were. And of course, today's refugees, a lot of 'em are here for the same reason. But I think one of the things that happened in the United States is the assimilation into whiteness.(25:49):So as white people, it's obviously different for different communities, but if you came in here and you Irish people and Italians and so forth were despised at certain times and Jews and Quakers even. But over time, if you were white, you could and many did assimilate. And what did assimilate into whiteness? First of all, whiteness is not a culture, and it's kind of bereft of real meaning because the real cultures were the original Irish and Italian. But the other thing is that how you make whiteness a community, if you will, is by excluding other people, is by saying, well, we're different than these other folks. So I don't know if this applies to your ancestors or not, but it is possible that part of what their assimilation to the United States was is to say, okay, we are white people and we are entitled to this land in North Dakota because we're not native. And so now our identity is people who are secure on the land, who have title to it and can have a livelihood and can raise our children in security. That is all wrapped up in us not being native and in our government, keeping native people from reclaiming that land.(27:19):So that starts shifting over generations. Certainly, it can certainly shift the politics. And I think that plus obviously the sense of entitlement that so many people felt to and feel to their slave holding ancestors, that was a defensible thing to do. And saying it's not is a real challenge to somebody's identity.(27:51):So in that respect, that whole business that Trump is doing or trying to restore the Confederate statues, those were not from the time of slavery. Those were from after reconstruction. Those were part of the south claiming that it had the moral authority and the moral right to do these centuries long atrocities against enslaved people. And so to me, that's still part of the fundamental identity struggle we're in right now, is people saying, if I identify as white, yes, I get all this safety and all these privileges, but I also have this burden of this history and history that's continuing today, and how do I reconcile those two? And Trump says, you don't have to. You can just be proud of what you have perpetrated or what your ancestors perpetrated on other people.And I think there was some real too. I think there were people who honestly felt that they wanted to reconcile the, and people I think who are more willing to have complex thoughts about this country because there are things to be proud of, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and the long history of protecting free speech and journalism and education for everyone and so forth. So there are definitely things to be proud of. And then there are things to recognize. We're incredibly violent and have had multiple generations of trauma resulting from it. And to live in this country in authenticity is to recognize that both are true and we're stuck with the history, but we're not stuck without being able to deal with that. We can do restitution and reparations and we can heal from that.Danielle (30:15):How do you stay connected even just to your own self in that dissonance that you just described?Sarah (30:30):Well, I think part of having compassion is to recognize that we're imperfect beings as individuals, but we're also imperfect as cultures. And so for me, I can live with, I mean, this is something I've lived with ever since I was in India, really. And I looked around and noticed that there were all these kids my own age who were impoverished and I was not. And that I knew I have enough to eat at the end of the day, and I knew that many of them would not have enough to eat. So it's always been a challenge for me. And so my response to that has been when I was a kid was, well, I don't understand how that happened. It's certainly not right. I don't understand how it could be, and I'm going to do my best to understand it, and then I'll do my part to try to change it. And I basically had the same view ever since then, which is there's only so much I can do, but I'll do everything I can, including examining my own complicity and working through issues that I might be carrying as somebody who grew up in a white supremacist culture, working on that internally, and then also working in community and working as an activist in a writer in any way I can think of that I can make a contribution.(31:56):But I really do believe that healing is possible. And so when I think about the people that are causing that I feel like are not dealing with the harm that they're creating, I still feel just somebody who goes to prison for doing a crime that's not the whole of who they are. And so they're going to have to ultimately make the choice about whether they're going to heal and reconcile and repair the damage they will have to make that choice. But for my part, I always want to keep that door open in my relationship with them and in my writing and in any other way, I want to keep the door open.Danielle (32:43):And I hear that, and I'm like, that's noble. And it's so hard to do to keep that door open. So what are some of the tools you use, even just on your own that help you keep that door open to conversation, even to feeling compassion for people maybe you don't agree with? What are some of the things, maybe their internal resources, external resources could be like, I don't know, somebody you read, go back to and read. Yeah. What helps you?Sarah (33:16):Well, the most important thing for me to keep my sanity is a combination of getting exercise and getting outside(33:27):And hanging out with my granddaughter and other people I love outside of political spaces because the political spaces get back into the stress. So yeah, I mean the exercise, I just feel like being grounded in our bodies is so important. And partly that the experience of fear and anxiety show up in our bodies, and we can also process them through being really active. So I'm kind of worried that if I get to the point where I'm too old to be able to really move, whether I'll be able to process as well. So there's that in terms of the natural world, this aliveness that I feel like transcends me and certainly humanity and just an aliveness that I just kind of open my senses to. And then it's sort, they call it forest bathing or don't have to be in a forest to do it, but just sort of allowing that aliveness to wash over me and to sort of celebrate it and to remember that we're all part of that aliveness. And then spending time with a 2-year-old is like, okay, anything that I may be hung up on, it becomes completely irrelevant to her experience.Danielle (35:12):I love that. Sarah, for you, even though I know you heard, you're still asking these questions yourself, what would you tell people to do if they're listening and they're like, and they're like, man, I don't know how to even start a conversation with someone that thinks different than me. I don't know how to even be in the same room them, and I'm not saying that your answers can apply to everybody. Mine certainly don't either, like you and me are just having a conversation. We're just talking it out. But what are some of the things you go to if you know you're going to be with people Yeah. That think differently than you, and how do you think about it?Sarah (35:54):Yeah, I mean, I don't feel particularly proud of this because I don't feel very capable of having a direct conversation with somebody who's, because I don't know how to get to a foundational level that we have in common, except sometimes we do. Sometimes it's like family, and sometimes it's like, what did you do for the weekend? And so it can feel like small talk, but it can also have an element of just recognizing that we're each in a body, in perhaps in a family living our lives struggling with how to live well. And so I usually don't try to get very far beyond that, honestly. And again, I'm not proud of that because I would love to have conversations that are enlightening for me and the other person. And my go-to is really much more basic than that.Maybe it is. And maybe it creates enough sense of safety that someday that other level of conversation can happen, even if it can't happen right away.Danielle (37:14):Well, Sarah, tell me if people are looking for your writing and know you write a blog, tell me a little bit about that and where to find you. Okay.Sarah (37:26):Yeah, my blog is called How We Rise, and it's on Substack. And so I'm writing now and then, and I'm also writing somewhat for Truth Out Truth out.org has adopted the Yes Archive, which I'm very grateful to them for because they're going to keep it available so people can continue to research and find articles there that are still relevant. And they're going to be continuing to do a monthly newsletter where they're going to draw on Yes, archives to tell stories about what's going on now. Yes, archives that are specifically relevant. So I recommend that. And otherwise, I'm just right now working on a draft of an op-ed about Palestine, which I hope I can get published. So I'm sort of doing a little of this and a little of that, but I don't feel like I have a clear focus. The chaos of what's going on nationally is so overwhelming, and I keep wanting to come back to my own and my own focus of writing, but I can't say that I've gotten there yet.Danielle (38:41):I hear you. Well, I hope you'll be back, and hopefully we can have more conversations. And just thanks a lot for being willing to just talk about stuff we don't know everything about.As always, thank you for joining us, and at the end of the podcast are notes and resources, and I encourage you to stay connected to those who are loving in your path and in your community. Stay tuned.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Bio: Jenny - Co-Host Podcast (er):I am Jenny! (She/Her) MACP, LMHCI am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Somatic Experiencing® Practitioner, Certified Yoga Teacher, and an Approved Supervisor in the state of Washington.I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need. By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens!I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as consistently engaging my entanglement with white saviorism). I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias' and privilege in the work that I do. I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality.I am immensely grateful for the teachers, healers, therapists, and friends (and of course my husband and dog!) for the healing I have been offered. I strive to pay it forward with my clients and students. Few things make me happier than seeing people live freely in their bodies from the inside out!Danielle (00:28):Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations based in what our reality is, faith, race, justice, gender in the church, therapy, all matter of things considered just exploring this topic of reality. Hey, I'm having this regular podcast co-host. Her name is Jenny McGrath. She's an M-A-C-P-L-M-H-C. She's dope. She's a licensed mental health counselor, a somatic experiencing practitioner, certified yoga teacher, and an approved supervisor in the state of Washington. She spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. And she's come to see that bodies are so important and she believes that by approaching the body with curiosity, we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens. So I hope you're as thrilled as me to have such an amazing co-host join me. Yeah, we're going to talk about reality and therapy. We're just jumping in. Jenny and I are both writing books.Jenny, I think it's funny that we are good friends and we see each other when we're around each other, but then if not, we're always trading reels and often they're like parodies on real life. Funny things about real life that are happening, which I've been, the theme of my book is called Splitting, and I know you write about purity culture, and a part of that I think really has to do with what is our reality and how is it formed? And then that shapes what we do, how we act, how we behave in the world, how we relate to each other. So any thoughts on that? On Thursday, September 25th,Jenny (02:17):I mean, as you named that, I think 10 minutes before this started, I sent you a reel. There was a comedian singing Why She Doesn't Go to Therapy, and it says, all my friends that go to therapy are mean to me, and you don't have boundaries. You're just being an asshole. And it was good, but it was also existential. This was what seems to me a white woman. And I do think as a white woman who's a therapist, I feel existential a lot about the work I do in therapy and in healing spaces, and how we do this in a way that doesn't promote this hyper individualistic reality. And this idea that everything I see and everything I think is the way that it is, how do I stay open to more of a communal or collective way of knowing? And I think that that's a challenging thing. So that's something that comes to mind for me as you bring up Instagram reels.Danielle (03:26):Oh man, I have so many thoughts on that that I wasn't thinking before you said it, but I think they were all locked in a vault, been unleashed. No, seriously. You come from your own position in the world. Talk about your position and how did you come to that point of seeing more of a collective mindset or reality point of view?Jenny (03:47):I mean, honestly, I think a big part has been knowing you and working with you and knowing that I think we've had conversations over the years of both the privilege and the detriment that happens in a lot of white therapeutic spaces that say you just need detach from your family, from your community, from those who have harmed you. And I want to be very, very clear and very careful that obviously I do think that there are situations we need to extract ourselves from and remove ourselves from. And I think that can become disabling for bodies to, I've been having this thing play in my head lately where I'm like, are you healed? Or have you just cut off everyone that triggers you?Yeah, and I saw another, speaking of meme, it was like, I treat my trauma like Trump treats tariffs. I just implement boundaries arbitrarily, and they harm everyone.And so I think it's, there is a certain privilege that comes with being able to say, I'm just going to step away. I'm going to do my own thing. I'm going to do my healing journey. And I think there is a detriment to that and there's a loss. And I think we have co-evolved to be in community and to tell stories and to share reality and to hold reality in the tension of our space. I think about it as we each have a different lens. There's no objective reality, but if I can be open to your lens and you can be open to my lens, then we actually have two lenses, and then if we have five lenses or 10 lenses, we can have a much fuller picture of where we are rather than seeing the world through the really monochromatic white, patriarchal, Christian nationalist lens that we've been maybe conditioned, or at least I was conditioned to see the world through.Danielle (06:10):Yeah. Whoa. Yeah, I know we've talked about this so many times, and I think it just feels so present right now, especially as every moment it feels like every day. If you watch the news, if you don't take a break, I think you can be jarred at any moment or dissociated at any moment, or traumatized at any moment, or maybe feel a bit of joy too when someone says a smack down on your side of the issue. And I think that when we get in that mode of constantly being jarred and then we try to come into a healing space, it's like how do we determine then what is actually healing for us? What is actually good? What is actually wise? And I agree, I think if we're in a rhythm of being on our own, and I'm not criticizing, I mean, I get lonely and I'm part of a group, so I'm not speaking to loneliness particularly, but I'm speaking to the idea that no one else has input in your life, even the kind of input you may not agree with, but no one else is allowed to speak to you.(07:15):When I get in those spaces, it's not that I just feel lonely, I don't feel any hope. I don't feel any movement or any possibility because let's say that this ends tomorrow, that authoritarian regime magically ends. It's healed tomorrow. We're going to have to look at all of our people in our lives and face them and decide what we're going to do. I mean, that's what I think about a lot. At the end of the day, I might sit next to someone that hates me or that I perhaps might have rage and anger towards them. What are we going to do? So I don't know, when you talk about the different lenses, I'm not sure how that all mixes together. I don't have an answer, basically. Shoot.Jenny (08:05):But I also think that that's part of maybe how we hold reality is maybe it is more about presence and being with what is, rather than having an answer, I think I become more and more skeptical of anyone who says they have an answer for anything.Danielle (08:31):So I mean, there was this guy that recently passed away, and there was, on one hand I wanted to really talk about it, and on the other hand, I didn't want to talk about it because it took up so much space. And I feel that even as we start to talk about how do we form healing spaces in therapy with that, I think, what did you call it that, what kind of lens did you say? It was like a monochromatic lens. How do we talk about that without centering it?Jenny (09:08):I think one thing that comes to mind is holding it in context of all of the other deaths that have not taken up that space. And the social studies phrase, what are the conditions of possibility that have enabled this death to create church services happening that have taken over people's social media, people who have been silent about lots of different deaths in the last year or five years, all of a sudden can't help but become really vigilant about talking about this. I think for me, it helps to zoom back and go, how come? Why is this so prevalent? Why is this so loud? What is this illuminating or what is this unearthing about? What's already been here?So I grew up in very fundamentalist, white evangelical Christianity. And from the time I was eight, nine years old, I had in me messages instilled of martyrdom, whether that was a message that I should be a martyr, or whether that was a message that Christians were already being martyred, whether that was the war against Christmas with Starbucks cups or not having prayers happen at school. And these things where I grew up in this world where we were supposed to be prominent, we were supposed to be prevalent, we were supposed to be protected. And whenever there was any challenge to that from bodies that weren't white or straight or Christian or American, there became this very real frenzy around martyrdom. And I think on an interpersonal level and on a collective level, someone who plays the victim will always hold the most power in the relational dynamic. And so I think that this moment was a very useful moment to that psyche and that reality of seeing the world as a victim, as a martyr, as being persecuted, regardless of the fact that evangelical Christians are the strongest floating block in our nation. They have incredible privilege when it comes to a lot of education, marriage inequality, things like that, that are from the long lineage of Christian nationalism in our country.Danielle (12:15):So then how do you work with folks that are coming in with that lens, and what's the responsibility of our field? I know you and I can't answer that question necessarily, but we can just say from our own experience what that's like. Are you willing to share a little bit of that?What would I say? My client load is mixed and so do a lot of work, but just because it's mixed doesn't mean that I'm not currently undoing that process in myself as well. So I think just as much as therapy is about whoever comes into my office or shows up in the zoom room or even a group or a teaching we've been a part of, I think it's, well, I mean we say this co-created, but I actually mean it means I have to keep learning. I have to keep trying to be in my body. And what I mean by that is I was talking to my friend Phil yesterday, and he was like, Danielle, are you tracking your body sensations? And he's like, I just challenge you to do that today. And I was like, man, that that's a good reminder. So I think one way I try to come with clients is from the perspective of I don't know it all.(13:38):I only know what I'm feeling and sensing in this moment, and I have that to offer along with other things I've studied, of course. But just because the person sitting with me doesn't have a degree or the group and the people, doesn't mean they don't know just as much as me. It's just another form of maybe learning or knowing or presence and healing. And then we're figuring that out together. I see that as one way of undoing, undoing this. I know everything point of view, which I kind of felt like I had to have when I came out of grad school. Yeah,Jenny (14:14):Yeah, totally. Yeah, I feel similar and I think often think in quotes. And so one of my favorite quotes is by Simone Devo, and she says, without a doubt, it is always more comfortable to endure blind bondage than to work for one's liberation. And so I am consistently asking, where is my blind bondage? Who are the people in my life that will show me where my blind bondage is? Who are the people that will hold me accountable to my own liberation? And for me as a therapist, I work primarily with white folks who grew up in fundamental Christianity. And over 10 years of doing that work, I think that a primary part of my work is radical agency(15:13):Because I think that particularly white bodies maintain privilege by abdicating our agency and by being compliant with the systems that give us power and give us privilege. And so I think for me, my ethic is how do I help clients come into contact with their radical agency? And so a big part of that that I think is important is consent. And so if someone is coming to work with me, it's part of my disclosure form, it's part of my intake to say, I don't think our mental health concerns or our somatic concerns exist in a bubble. They are deeply impacted by the systems we move through. And so while we'll be engaging your individual body, we're also going to be engaging the collective structures. And I've had people say, no, I don't want to do that work. And I say, great, there are other lovely therapists that will work with you and be a better fit. That's just not the type of therapy I do. That's not within my scope of practice to only focus on the individual, because for me, that's unethical.Danielle (16:23):Oh, that's cool. I like that, Jenny. I think that a lot. I was consulting recently, and we're just talking about this current moment, and I'll just say from my point of view that even in my family, I noticed when something had gone on locally, we have some organizing that we do and we had some warnings go out. And I noticed even in my own family, the heightened anxiety, the alert, and one of the things we had to do was we took turns driving around just making sure everybody's safe and everybody was safe. And I came down and at the point where people began to lower anxiety, and we're talking about just regular business owners, regular people out there, we're not even talking about immigrants, quote migrants. We're just talking about people out there that don't want to encounter force. You could feel the anxiety just lower now that we went the parking lot's clear, no one's here, we're safe. This isn't happening, not today. I'm not saying it won't happen here in our area of the country, but it's not happening today. And I realized in consultation later about clients and stuff that things are going to, but the clinician I was consulting with just said to me, she said to me, just for your family, she's like, that anxiety is warranted. That's real. You're supposed to feel anxious. There's no way you can take that away for those people and you shouldn't.(18:02):And so just kind of learning, reminding myself, when you go to grad school, when you study therapy and psychology, there's pathological, there's diagnoses, all these things, but then there's some things like we just can't take away. They're part of the experience. They need to be there. They're part of the warning. And there's a reason why when you get out and do something practical for a community, the anxiety lowers. And I think that just gave me a lot of insight, not just for my client, but for my family and for myself. And there's some calm, not because I'm anxious, but because, oh, I'm not crazy. I'm not just making this up. And so I do think that speaks to how the system is creating trauma and it is powerless. What can we do against the big bad authorities? And we can do things, we can connect, we can be with people, but at some level, that baseline of anxiety is going to be there because it's warranted. That's how I think of it.What do we do? Well, we sat at home, we watched sports. We went to Best Buy, and this is not every, we had some privilege. We bought an extra controller to play Mario World or whatever it was. I don't remember, but I was like, I'm not playing on that little controller. They wanted me to hold. I was like, I need a real controller. I'm old. I need to be able to feel it in my hands. Just silly stuff. Just didn't put pressure on the kids to do homework. Not a pressure to clean the house, just to just exist. Just be, yeah. What about you? What do you do when you encounter either anxiety from trauma like that or the systemic pressure maybe to even conform to whiteness or privilege in that moment?Jenny (20:12):I typically need to move my body in some way, whether that's to take my dog on a very long walk or whether that's just to roll around on a dance floor or maybe do a yoga practice. I become aware of how my body is holding that, and I think about how emotions are just energy in motion. And so if we don't give them motion and expression, it becomes like a battery pack in our nervous system. And so I can feel that if I haven't been able to move and to express whatever my body needs to express, and often I don't even know cognitively what my body needs to express, but I've grown in trust that my body knows, and I say, I think the sillier we look the better it usually feels. I just saw this lovely post the other day, a movement person did where they, we talk a lot about brainwashing, but we don't talk a lot about body washing, and we are so conditioned to only move our body in certain ways. And because our body is not different than our brain, I think that the more free we feel in our actual physical body to our own ability, the more that can actually create a little bit more mobility in how we see reality and how we engage with it.Danielle (21:44):So take that back to the beginning where you started talking about how when you have clients come in, you're like, yo, we're going to address this systemically and collectively. What do you do with folks when they have that kind of energy and you guys are working through it and it's like, oh, it's like maybe that's collective energy. What do you do? Yeah,Jenny (22:02):Yeah. I ask my clients probably annoying amount of times each session, what do you notice right now? And then I follow their body. So if their body says like, oh, I feel a lot of tension in my gut instead of alleviating that, I go, okay, great. Can you actually exaggerate that tension a little bit and see what happens? See if that tension wants to come out in a snarl or a growl, or maybe you want to curl up in a ball and I just follow whatever the impulses of their body are. Or if they say like, oh, I feel a lot in my shoulders. I'm like, great. Do you want to go push against a wall or push against the floor or punch a pillow and let your body actually get some movement into those spaces that you're sensing?Well, as I said, I'm very skeptical about individual work, even though I do it, I don't think is all that. I think it is both necessary and not that helpful for the collective(23:21):Because it is individual. And so I actually do think we need collective spaces of moving and expressing and being in our bodies. I think our ancestors knew this for before Christian supremacy and then white supremacy and then capitalistic supremacy eradicated how we've evolved to move in our and collectively. That being said, I do think that the more we become aware of how our body is constrained and how we've been socialized, especially I think for anybody, but for me, I'll speak to white bodies, we aren't always conscious. We take for granted whiteness and how it affects our bodies. So the first time I'm asking a white person, especially maybe a white woman to look pissed, that's going to be probably really scary because socially we are not actually allowed to be pissed. We're allowed to be dams, souls, and we're allowed to freak out, but we're not actually allowed to be strong and be powerful and be angry. And so I do believe that in that work of individual liberation and freedom, it actually helps us resist those roles and those performances of white womanhood that then perpetuate collective harm.Danielle (24:49):I can see how that shift would really impact the way one person both connects with their neighbor or a different person, even same race or same culture, and would impact not only how they relate and connect to that person, but also just how they might love.Jenny (25:10):Yeah, because I think it is dangerous. It is disproportionately dangerous to oppressed bodies when white women aren't holding our own anger because I think that there is a deferral to the police, to governing bodies to different authorities when a white woman is actually pissed, rather than saying like, Hey, you did this and it pissed me off, let's work it out here. Oftentimes that ends up actually getting policed to authorities that then disproportionately harm oppressed bodies. And so I think it is essential for white women to grow our capacity to bear. No, I actually am pissed and I can acknowledge that and engage that and be with it in myself.I do. I do actually. So I have been working on a book for the last six years in which I'm looking at the socialization of young white women in purity culture and this political moment of Invisible children, which was this documentary style film that manipulated an entire generation of young white women to get involved in missions or development. And so as part of my research, I interviewed many white women who grew up in purity culture and became missionaries. And there were some that maybe still had good relations with organizations such as invisible children and felt threatened or maybe pissed that I was inquiring into this. And so instead of engaging and talking about the emotions that were coming up, they went straight to interrogating my IRB and then went straight to is this research ethical? Even though I could tell they were really just angry and upset about what I was interrogating, and I would've much rather we could have that conversation than this quick sense of I'm going to go to the structures while I can maintain feeling like this demure pleasantness of white womanhood, even though I could feel the energy. And that's an example for me, and I have white privilege, and so there was still threat there, but it was not probably to the same degree that it could be if I didn't hold that same power and privilege that I do.Scared. I felt really scared and I had done everything ethically. I had hired my own IRB to oversee my research. I did their protocol and still I felt the wielding of power and the sense of I can move the system to act against you if I don't like what you're doing. And so it was really, really scary. And then I had to move my anxiety and my body and I had to shake because what I do often when I get scared and I had to let my body discharge that adrenaline and that cortisol, and then I was able to back to myself and respond and say, it sounds like you have some concerns, and being interviewed is totally optional so you don't have to do it. And then I never heard back from 'em, and so it was just helpful for me to get to move that through. Even in part of that process,Danielle (29:27):Jenny, is that energy still in you now or is it gong?Jenny (29:30):Oh yeah, totally. I can feel my body vibrating and even there's that fear of like, oh shit, what's going to happen if I talk about this? I can feel the silencingThe demand to be small and not to expose it because then I'm open to fill in the blank. And so I can feel the sense of how power wants to keep us from speaking truth to power and to those that wield it.Danielle (30:02):Man, I want to swear so bad, motherfucker. I'm not surprised. But I do think I continue to allow myself to be shocked. And I think the thing is, I know this can happen. I know it will happen. I think both you and I are writing on topics that are very interrogate this moment in a very particular way that's threatening. And so although I'm not surprised, I am allowing myself to continually be shocked, not I want to re-traumatize myself, but I don't want to lose the feeling of there might be somebody good out there, this might be well received. And also I want to maintain that feeling of like, man, I really love my friend. I believe in her. And I think allowing myself to kind of hold all those things kind of just allows me to wake up for the moment versus just numbing out to it. Man,So vicious. It's so vicious because you aren't taking their money, you aren't literally hurting them physically. You're not taking their power, and yet there's this full force. You've dedicated your life to this thing and they could take you out.Jenny (31:19):Yeah, and I think it's primarily because I am questioning white women's innocence and I think based on how race and gender work, a white woman's privilege and power comes from this presumed purity and innocence. And so if we start to disrupt that and go, actually, I'm human and I've done some shit and I've, I've caused harm and I will cause harm, and that's actually a really important part of me working out my humanity. Then I'm stepping out of the bounds of being protected under white patriarchy.Danielle (32:06):I feel like I learned, I feel like so much resonance with that. I've had many similar experiences, but one stands out where right after the election I talked with a friend of mine on the phone, and I don't remember if she is a white colleague from same grad school and said something like, oh, it's just a bummer. And we didn't really talk about it. And I was like, that's all you could say. I thought about that. And later I sent a really kind text saying, Hey, that really hurt my feelings. I don't know. It doesn't make sense why we haven't talked about it more. And then I didn't hear back. It just went silent. This is someone I'd known for seven years.(32:45):Then later I called and I was like, Hey, what's up? And they're like, I can't believe you would write that to me If I ever engage you again, I want to start here. Some other random place. I was just sat back and I was like, I'm not giving this any more energy at that time. I said that to myself and it was just like the complete collapse when I said, you hurt my feelings, the complete collapse. When I said, I don't understand this, can we talk about it? And then I went through this period this summer of just having this feeling. I don't want to be at odds with people. So I left this person a voicemail saying, Hey man, can we talk? I haven't heard back from them, but I feel like I did my part. But I'm just struck it even in down from the big view, like the 30,000 foot view or how that person wants to reign the system on you to even interpersonally, if I don't like what you said, I'm just going to remove my presence,Jenny (33:51):Which I think again, is so much of the epidemic of whiteness. And I think it then produces such a fragility that's like I don't actually know how to bear open conflict and disruption because I'm not practiced at it, and I just will escape every time someone calls me to accountability or says something I don't like. And we can't stay in that place of tension.Yeah. Well, I think one is that I feel those tendencies so much in my own body, and I do think that we have capacity to metabolize them. And so I literally might say something like, great, could you let your body get up and run around the room or run in place? Or maybe you stay seated but you let your legs and your arms kick. And they think that if we even just let ourselves express I want to fight, or if I want to flee or I want to get away from this and we let our body do what we need to do, we can then come back to ourselves and have fuller access to our capacity. And again, sometimes I do think there are relationships or communities or things that we do need to step away from. And sometimes if we've only ever learned to say yes, we might go through a process where we swing to the other side and we just cut everyone out and then we get to learn how to have discernment and how to enter into relationships thoughtfully and how to know who are those people we will be investing in probably for a long time.(35:43):And so it's not denying that those impulses are there, but it's letting our bodies metabolize them and work through them. And it makes me think of res, menkin talks about dirty pain versus clean pain, and I think dirty pain is just like, this hurts. I'm going to avoid it. And just disconnect and dissociate clean pain is like this hurts and I'm going to press into it and I'm going to see what it can teach me and how I can grow into a stronger, more mature person through this process.Danielle (36:16):Man, that sounds like some good work you could do with somebody. I think the thing about therapy, coming back to what you said at the beginning is I think we want a quick answer. We want, we want to go to a retreat, we want to show up at the gym. In my case, I go to the gym often. We want to go somewhere, we want to feel like we did it, we accomplished it. And often at the gym, I can hear my coaches are saying just little steps. Every week and above doing lots of weight, it's showing up as much as you can, being consistent. And I kind of hear that in a little bit of what you're saying. It's not like getting to the end right away. It's tracking your body and the sensations and showing up for yourself even in that way.Jenny (37:08):And I think even like that, I love that analogy. I often say relationships are like muscles. They're only as strong as the ruptures that they can handle. And stronger muscles have had more and more and more and more ruptures. We build muscle through tearing and rebuilding. And I think that that's the same with relationship too. But if we've never torn, then we're so afraid of what's going to happen. If there is a rupture,Danielle:I don't know that we're going to heal that, but someone recently said the system is collapsing. It really is. It's coming down on itself. And I think really it's going to come down to the work that you talked about at the beginning, however people are choosing to see it. But one way you talked about it was that monochromatic lens and adding a lens, adding a lens. And I do think the challenge for all of us, even to form something new, whether that means new government, I don't know what it means, but just even a new way of being together set the government aside. It means really forming, adding lenses to ourselves. Jenny, I hope you're coming back to talk to me again.It's okay. Where can they find your stuff? Tell me.Jenny (38:42):Yeah, so I'm on Instagram at indwell movement, and then my website is indwell movement.com. So find me at either of those places, email me, reach out, send a message, would love to connect.Danielle (38:59):Okay, cool. Well, that's a wrap on this episode. If you can share, download, subscribe, tune into what we're talking about. But more important, have a conversation with a friend, a colleague, a neighbor, challenge your therapist, challenge your family. Don't forget to keep talking. And at the end of the show notes are resources, just some resources. They aren't the end all, be all of resources, but I'm putting 'em in there because I want you to know it's important to do resourcing for ourselves. As always, thank you for joining us, and at the end of the podcast are notes and resources, and I encourage you to stay connected to those who are loving in your path and in your community. Stay tuned.  Crisis Resources:Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResource Contact Info What They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call Line Phone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/ 24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach Team Emergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/ Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS) Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/ Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now” Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx 24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the Peninsulas Phone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-Resources Local crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap County Website: https://namikitsap.org/ Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResource Contact Info What They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988) Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/ Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line 1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resources Help for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line 877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/ Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis Lifeline Dial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resources Culturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

BioPhil Allen, Jr., PhD is a theologian and ethicist whose research and writings include the intersections of social structure, race, culture, and theology and ethics of justice. He has authored two books: Open Wounds: A Story of Racial Tragedy, Trauma, and Redemption and The Prophetic Lens: The Camera and Black Moral Agency From MLK to Darnella Frazier. He is an affiliate assistant professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, a poet, and documentary filmmaker. Dr. Allen is also founder of the nonprofit Racial Solidarity Project based in Pasadena, CA. As a former Division 1 college basketball player, he has enjoyed opportunities as a guest chaplain for college and professional sports teams.Phil Allen Jr., PhDAffiliate Assistant Professor | Fuller Theological SeminaryPresident: Racial Solidarity Project (RSP)Philallenjr.com | openwoundsdoc.comInstagram: @philallenjrig | @the_rspThreads: @philallenjrigFacebook: Phil Allen, Jr.Substack: @philallenjrLinkedIn: @philallenjrWelcome to the Arise podcast, conversations in Reality centered on our same themes, faith, race, justice, gender in the church. So happy to welcome my buddy and a colleague, just a phenomenal human being. Dr. Phil Allen, Jr. He has a PhD. He's a theologian and an ethicist whose research and writings include intersections of social structure, race, culture, and theology, and the ethics of justice. He has also authored two books, open Wounds, A Story of Racial Tragedy, trauma and Redemption, and the Prophetic Lens, the Camera and the Black Moral Agency from MLK to Dan Darnell Frazier. He's an affiliate assistant professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, a poet and a documentary filmmaker. Dr. Allen is also founder of the nonprofit Racial Solidarity Project based in Pasadena, California as a former division one college basketball player. Yes, he has enjoyed opportunities as a guest chaplain for college and professional sports. Hey, you're not going to be disappointed. You're going to find questions, curiosity ways to interact with the material here. Please just open up your mindset and your heart to what is shared today, and I encourage you to share and spread the word. Hey, Phil. Here we find ourselves back again talking about similar subjects.Danielle (00:18):Welcome to the Arise podcast, conversations in Reality centered on our same themes, faith, race, justice, gender in the church. So happy to welcome my buddy and a colleague, just a phenomenal human being. Dr. Phil Allen, Jr. He has a PhD. He's a theologian and an ethicist whose research and writings include intersections of social structure, race, culture, and theology, and the ethics of justice. He has also authored two books, open Wounds, A Story of Racial Tragedy, trauma and Redemption, and the Prophetic Lens, the Camera and the Black Moral Agency from MLK to Dan Darnell Frazier. He's an affiliate assistant professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, a poet and a documentary filmmaker. Dr. Allen is also founder of the nonprofit Racial Solidarity Project based in Pasadena, California as a former division one college basketball player. Yes, he has enjoyed opportunities as a guest chaplain for college and professional sports. Hey, you're not going to be disappointed. You're going to find questions, curiosity ways to interact with the material here. Please just open up your mindset and your heart to what is shared today, and I encourage you to share and spread the word. Hey, Phil. Here we find ourselves back again talking about similar subjects.Unfortunately. Well, how are you coming in today? How is your body? How's your mind? How are you coming in? Just first of all,Phil Allen Jr. (01:51):I am coming in probably in one of the best places, spaces in a long time. The last two days have been very, very encouraging and uplifting, having nothing to do with what's happening in the world. I turned 52, I told you I turned 52 yesterday. So whenever I see the happy birthdays and the messages, text messages, social media messages, literally it just lifts me up. But in that, I also had two people share something that I preached. Oh, 10 years ago, what? And one other person, it was 17 years ago, something I taught that came full circle. One person used it in a message for a group of people, and the other person was just saying, 10 years ago, about 10 years ago, you preached a message that was, it impacted me seriously. He didn't know who I was, and he the dots, and he realized, oh, that's the guy that preached when we went to that. And so that, to me, it was so encouraging to hear thoseBecause you never know where your messages land, how impactful they are, and for people to bring that up. That just had me light. Then I did 20 miles, so physically 20I feel great after that. I'm not sore. I'm not tired. I could go run right now, another 10, but I'm not. Okay. Okay, good. Today is rest day good? Yes, I did a crim community resiliency model present workshop.I dunno if you're familiar with, are you familiar with crim?Crim was developed by Trauma Resource Institute here in Claremont, California by Elaine Miller Carra, and they go around the world. They have trainees and people around the world that go into places that just experienced traumatic eventsThe tsunami in Indonesia to school shootings around the country. So here, obviously we had the fires from January, and so we did a workshop to help. What it is is helping people develop the skills, practical skills. There are six skills to regulate the nervous systems, even in the moments. I was certified in 2020 to do that, and so I did a co-led presentation. It was great, very well received. I had fun doing it. So empowering to give people these skills. I use them every day, resourcing, just like when you asked me, how are you in your body? So for a moment, I have to track, I have to notice what's going on with my body. That's the firstSo we teach people those skills and it is just the last few days, Monday, Tuesday, and today already. I just feel light and it's no coincidence I didn't watch the news at all yesterday.Okay. Even on social media, there's no coincidence. I feel light not having engaged those things. So I feel good coming in this morning.Danielle (05:32):Okay, I like that. Well, I know I texted you, I texted you a couple months ago. I was like, let's record a podcast. And then as you alluded to, the world's kept moving at a rapid pace and we connected. And I've been doing a lot of thinking for a long time, and I know you and I have had conversations about what does it look like to stay in our bodies, be in our bodies in this time, and I've been thinking about it, how does that form our reality? And as you and I have talked about faith, I guess I'm coming back to that for you, for how you think about faith and how it informs your reality, how you're in reality, how you're grounding yourself, especially as you alluded to. We do know we can't be involved every second with what's happening, but we do know that things are happening. So yeah, just curious, just open up the conversation like that.Phil Allen Jr. (06:28):Yeah, I think I'm going to go back to your first question. I think your first question you asked me sets the tone for everything. And I actually answered this similarly to someone yesterday when you said, how are you in your body? And for me, that's the first I've learned, and a lot of it has to do with community resiliency model that I just talked about, to pay attention to what's going on in my body. That tells me a lot. That tells me if I'm good, I can't fake it. You can fake how you feel. You can fake and perform what you think, but you can't with the sensations and the response of your body to different circumstances, that's going to be as real, as tangible. So I pay attention first to that. That tells me how much I'm going to engage a subject matter. It tells me how much I want to stay in that space, whether it's the news, whether it's conversation with someone. My body tells me a lot now, and I don't separate that from my faith. We can go through biblical narrative and we can see where things that are going on physically with someone is addressed or is at least acknowledged. It is just not in the forefront emphasized. So we don't think that paying attention to what's going on in your body matters,When you have that dualistic approach to faith where the soul is all that matters. Your body is just this flesh thing. No, God created all of it. Therefore, all of it's valuable and we need to pay attention to all of it. So that's the first place I start. And then in terms of faith, I'm a realist. I'm a Christian realist, so I put things in perspective. The love ethic of Jesus is an ideal. Scripture is an ideal. It's telling us when you look at Christ, Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is also called the son of man. And from my understanding and my learnings, son of man refers to the human one, the ideal human one, right? He is divinity, but he's deity, but he's also a human, and he's the human that we look to for the ideal way to live. And so this perfect ideal of love, the love ethic of Jesus, I believe it's unattainable on this side of heaven. I think we should always strive to love our enemies. But how many people actually love their enemies? Bless them. I saw what Eric, I think his name, first name is Erica Kirk forgave theOkay? I'm not here to judge whether that's real or if she felt obligated because I know some Christians, they wrestle because they feel obligated to forgive almost immediately. I don't feel that obligation if my body is not in a place where I can just say, I forgive you. I need to get to a place where I can forgive. But let's just say it's very real. She is. I forgive this young man. How many people can do that? We admire it. How many Christians will just say, I forgive, genuinely say, I forgive the person who killed my children's father. So it's not that it can't be done, but sustained. There are few people who could do what in terms of relative to how many people in the world, what Mother Teresa did. There are few people who can do that. There are few people who could do what Martin Luther King did who could practice non-violence, risk, jail and life and limb for an extended period of time. So I'm not saying it can't be done, but sustained by many or the most of us. I just don't believe that's realistic. I believe it's always something we aspire to. And we're always challenged throughout life to live up to that ideal. But we're going to fall short probably more often than we want to admit.(11:12):So I don't try to put the pressure on myself to be this perfect Christian. I try to understand where I am in my maturity in this particular area. There's some things I can do better than others, and then I go from there. So I look at what's happening in the world through that lens. How would I really respond? There are people I don't want to deal with. They are toxic and harmful to me because here's the other part, there's also wisdom. That's faith too.Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit comes, the Holy Spirit shall come upon you, shall lead you in. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but the Holy Spirit shall lead you. No, the spirit of wisdom is what I'm trying to get to in John. This Holy Spirit is called the spirit of wisdom. Holy Spirit is going to lead you into all truth, but it's also called the spirit of wisdom.Is faith too. And it is there no one way of doing things.It's where I feel the most settled, even if I don't want to do something.I went through a divorce separated 10 years ago, divorce finalized a couple of years later. And I wanted so badly to share my story through people at my former church, family, friends. I wanted to tell, let me tell what happened. I never had peace about that in my body. My body never felt settled.Settled, okay.Because I knew I was doing it from a place of wanting to get vindication, maybe revenge. It wasn't just as innocent as, let me tell my side of the story, if I'm honest.It was, I'm going to throw you under the bus.But in that moment, I didn't because I didn't feel settled in my spirit. People say settled in my spirit. Really, it is also my body that I should do that wisdom says, let God handle it. Let God bring it to the surface. In due time, people will know who need to know. You don't have to take revenge. When they go low, you go high. In that moment, that's what I felt at peace to do. And I don't regret it to this day. I don't regret it. I'm glad I didn't because it would just been even more messy.I have conversations with my grandmother who's no longer with us, or I recall conversations we had. So when I was young, and I tell people unapologetically, I'm a mama's boy and a grandmama's boy. Women played a significant role raising me. So I'm close to mom, grandma, grandmothers, aunts, cousins, my sisters, and I'm the oldest of all my siblings, but women. So my grandmother, rather than going out to parties a lot, I would prefer to go to her house. I lived in high school with one grandmother, but sometimes I would go to my other grandmother's house and just sit and she would have a glass of wine, and we would just talk for hours. And she would tell me stories When she was young,Would ask her questions. I miss, and I loved those times. An external resource, if this can be an external no longer here, but she's a person. She was a real person. I think about what if I'm having a conversation with her, and she would never really be impulsive with me. She would just pause and just think, well, and I know she's going to drop some wisdom, right?So that's one of my sources. My grandmother, both of them to a degree, but my mom's mom for sure is I would say her feet. So I'd have these conversations. I still don't want to embarrass them. I don't want to make them look bad. I want them to be proud of me toDay. So that helps me make decisions. It helps me a lot of times on how I respond in the same way we believe that God is ever present and omniscient and knowing what we're doing and what we're thinking and feeling and watching, not watching in a surveillance type of way, but watching over us like a parent. If we believe that in those moments, I pretend because I don't know, but I pretend that my grandmother is, she's in heaven and she's watching over all right now, and I'm not offering a theological position that when they die and go to heaven, they're still present with us omnipresent. Now, I'm not saying any of that, just in my mind. I tell myself, grandma could be watching me. What will grandma do? Type of thing. So that becomes an external resource for me as well as mentors that I've had in my life. Even if I can't get in touch with them, I would recall conversations we've had, and they're still alive. I recall conversations we've had and how would they guide me in this? And so I remember their words. I remember more than I even realized.Danielle (17:59):And that feels so lovely and so profound that those roots, those, I want to say ancestors, but family, family connections, that they're resourcing us before they even know they're resourcing us.So they're not unfamiliar with suffering and pain and love and joy. So they may not know exactly what we're going through in this moment, 2025, but they do know what it is to suffer. They do know what it is to walk through life. It's heavy sometimes.Phil Allen Jr. (18:43):Yes, yes, yes. They prepared me and my siblings well, and my mom is the encourager. My mom is the person that just says it's going to be okay. It's going to work out. And sometimes I don't want to hear that, but my grandparents would say a little bit more, they were more sagacious in their words, and they would share that wisdom from their life, 80 plus years. And even with my mom, sometimes I'll look back and be like, she was right. I knew she was right. I knew she was right because she'd been through so much and it is going to be okay. It's going to be okay. It always is. And so I don't take that lightly either.Danielle (19:40):When you come to this current moment with your ancestors, your faith, those kinds of things with you, how then do you form a picture of where we are at, maybe as a faith, and I'm speaking specifically to the United States, and you might speak more specifically to your own cultural context. I know for Latino, for Latinx folks, there was some belief that was fairly strong, especially among immigrant men. I would say that to vote for particular party could mean hope and access to power. And so now there's a backtrack of grappling with this has actually meant pain and hate and dissolve of my family. And so what did that mean for my faith? So I think we're having a different experience, but I'm wondering from your experience, how then are you forming a picture of today?Phil Allen Jr. (20:47):I knew where we were headed. Nothing surprises me because my faith teaches me to look at core underlying causes, root causes in an individual. When we talk about character, what are the patterns of this person that's going to tell us a lot about who this person is, they're in leadership, where they're going to lead us, what are the patterns of a particular group, the patterns that a lot of people don't pay attention to or are unaware of? What are those patterns? And even then, you may have to take a genealogical approach, historical approach, and track those patterns going back generations and coming to the current time to tell us where we'reAnd then do the same thing broadly with the United States. And if you pay attention to patterns, I'm a patterns person. If you pay attention to patterns, it'll tell you where you're going. It'll tell you where you're headed. So my faith has taught me to pay attention to even the scripture that says from the heart, the mouth speaks. So if I want to know a person, I just pay attention to what they're saying. I'm just going to listen. And if I listen intently, carefully, what they've said over time tells me how they will lead us, tells me how they will respond. It tells me everything about their ethics, their morality. It tells me what I need to know. If I pay attention, nothing surprises me where we are, the term MAGA is not just a campaign slogan, it's a vision statement. Make America great again. Each of these words, carry weight again, tells me, and it's not even a vision statement, it's nostalgic. It's not creative. It's not taking us into a new future with a new, something new and fresh. It is looking backwards. Again, let's take what we did. It might look a little differently. Let's take what we did and we're going to bring that to 2025. Great. What is great? That's a relative statement. That's a relative word.(23:36):I always ask people, give me one decade. In the last 400 plus years since Europeans encountered, 500 years since Europeans encountered indigenous people, give me one decade of greatness, moral greatness. Not just economic or militarily, but moral greatness where the society was just equitable, fair and loving. I can't find one.Because the first 127 years with interaction with indigenous people was massacre violence, conquest of land, beginning with a narrative that said that they were savages. Then you got 246 years of slavery,Years of reconstruction. And from 1877 to 19 68, 91 years of Jim Crow. So you can't start until you get to 1970.And then you got mass incarceration, the prison industrial complex and racial profiling. So for black folks, especially seventies, and you had the crack of it, the war on drugs was really a war on the communities because it wasn't the same response of the opioid addiction just a few years ago in the suburbs, in the white suburbs, it was a war, whereas this was called a health crisis. So people were in prison, it was violence industry. So now we're in 1990s, and we still can start talking about police brutality, excessive force. And since 1989, you, it's been revealed 50 plus percent of exonerations are African-Americans. So that means throughout the seventies, eighties, and nineties, people who have been put in prison, who unjustly. And that affects an entire community that affects families. And you got school shootings starting with Columbine and mass shootings. So tell me one decade of America greatness.So if I pay attention to the patterns, I should not be surprised with where we are. Make America great. Again, that's a vision statement, but it's nostalgic. It's not innovative. It's taking us back to a time when it was great for people, certain people, and also it was telegraphed. These ice raids were telegraphed.2015, the campaign started with they're sending their rapists and their murder. So the narrative began to create a threat out of brown bodies. From the beginning, he told us,Yeah, right. So project 2025, if you actually paid attention to it, said exactly what they were wanting to do. Nothing surprises me. Go back to the response to Obama as president first, black president, white supremacist group, hate groups rose and still cause more violence than any other group in the country. But they have an ally in the office. So nothing surprises me. My faith tells me, pay attention to the underlying, pay attention to the root causes. Pay attention to the patterns of what people ignore and what they don't pay attention to. And it'll tell you where you're headed. So nothing surprises me,Danielle (27:39):Phil, you'll know this better than me, but Matthew five, that's the beatitudes, right? And I think that's where Jesus hits on this, right? He's like, you said this and I'm saying this. He's saying, pay attention to what's underneath the surface. Don't just say you love someone. What will you do for them? What will you do for your enemy? What will you do for your neighbor? And the reward is opposite. So a lot of times I've been talking with friends and I'm like, it's almost, I love Marvel movies. And you know how they time travel to try to get all the reality stones back and endgame? IA lot of movies. Okay, well, they time travel.Following you. Yeah. They time travel. And I feel like we're in an alternate time, like an alternate, alternate time zone where Jesus is back, he's facing temptations with Satan. And instead of saying no, he's like, bring it on. Give me the world. And we're living in an alternate space where faith, where we're seeing a faith played out with the name of Jesus, but the Jesus being worshiped is this person that would've said yes to the devil that would've said, yes, give me all the kingdoms of the world. Let rule everything. Yes, I'm going to jump. I know you're going to catch me. I can be reckless with my power and my resources. That's what I feel like all the bread I want. Of course I'm hungry. I'm going to take it all for myself. I feel like we're living in that era. It just feels like there's this timeline where this is the Jesus that's being worshiped. Jesus.That's how I feel. And so it's hard for me, and it's good for me to hear you talk about body. It's hard for me to then mix that reality. Because when I talk to someone, I'm like, man, I love Jesus. I love the faith you're talking about. And when I'm out there, I feel such bristle, such bristle and such angst in my body, anxiety like fear when I hear the name of Jesus, that Jesus, does that make sense?Phil Allen Jr. (30:05):Yes. Yeah. And that's so good. And I would you make me think about white Jesus?Like the aesthetics of Jesus. And that was intentional. And so my question for you real quick, how do you feel? What do you sense happening in your body when you see a brown Jesus, when you see an unattractive Palestinian, maybe even Moroccan Ethiopian looking, Jesus, brown skin, darker skin, any shade of brown to depict what Jesus, let's say, someone trying to depict what Jesus might've looked like. I've seen some images that said Jesus would've looked like this. And I don't know if that's true or not, but he was brown. Very different than the European. Jesus with blue eyes, brought blonde hair. What do you sense in, have you ever seen a picture, an image like that? And what do you remember about your response, your bodily response to that?Danielle (31:14):Well, it makes me feel like crying, just to hear you talk about it. I feel relief. I think I feel like I could settle. I would be calm. Some sort of deep resonance. It's interesting you say, I lived in Morocco for two years with my husband, and he's Mexican. Mexican, born there Mexican. And everybody thought he was Moroccan or Egyptian or they were like, who are you? And then they would find out he was Mexican. And they're like, oh man, we're brothers. That's literally an Arabic. They was like, we're brothers. We're brothers. Like, oh yeah, that's the feeling I have. We would be welcomed in.Phil Allen Jr. (32:00):Wow. I asked that question because whenever I've taught, I used teach in my discipleship group a class before they were put into small mentoring groups. I'd have a six, seven week class that I taught on just foundational doctrine and stuff like that. And when I talked about the doctrine of get into Christology, I would present a black Jesus or a brown Jesus, Palestinian Jesus. And you could feel the tension in the room. And usually somebody would push back speaking on behalf of most of the people in the room would push back. And I would just engage in conversation.(32:52):And usually after I would speak to them about and get them to understand some things, then they would start to settle. When I would get them to think about when was the white Jesus, when was Jesus presented as white and by whom and why? And why would Jesus look this way? Everybody else in that era, that time and that spade, that region would've looked very differently. Why do you think this is okay? And then someone would inevitably say, well, his race doesn't matter. And I heard a professor of mine say it mattered enough to change it. Absolutely. Why not be historically accurate? And that was when the light switch came on for many of them. But initially they were disoriented. They were not settled in their bodies. And that to me tells a lot about that's that alternative. Jesus, the one who would've jumped, the one who would've saved himself, the one who would've fallen into the temptation. I would say that that's the white Jesus, that what we call Christian, lowercase c Christian nationalism or even American conservative evangelicalism, which has also been rooted in white supremacy historically. That's the Jesus that's being worshiped. I've said all along, we worship different gods.(34:30):We perceive Jesus very differently. That's why the debates with people who are far left, right or conservative, the debates are pointless because we worship different gods. We're not talking about the same Jesus. So I think your illustration is dead on. I'm seeing a movie already in my head.Danielle (34:58):I have tried to think, how can I have a picture of our world having been raised by one part of my family that's extremely conservative. And then the other part not how do I find a picture of what's happening, maybe even inside of me, like the invitation to the alternate reality, which we're talking about to what's comfortable, to what's the common narrative and also the reality of like, oh, wait, that's not how it worked for all of my family. It was struggle. It was like, what? So I think, but I do think that our faith, like you said, invites us to wrestle with that. Jesus asks questions all the time.Phil Allen Jr. (35:46):Yes, I am learning more and more to be comfortable setting a table rather than trying to figure out whose table I go to, whether it's in the family, friends, whomever. I'm comfortable setting a table that I believe is invitational, a table of grace as well as standards. I mean, I don't believe in just anything goes either. I'm not swinging a pendulum all the way to the other side, but I do believe it's a table of grace and truly, truly, rather than trying to make people believe and live out that faith the way I think they should, inviting them to a space where hopefully they can meet with God and let God do that work, whatever it is that they need to do. But I'm comfortable creating a table and saying, Hey, I'm going to be at this table that's toxic. That table over there is toxic. That table over there is unhealthy. I'm going to be at this table.Danielle (37:05):How practically do you see that working out? What does that look like in your everyday life or maybe in the discipleship settings you're in? How does that look?Phil Allen Jr. (37:16):I'm very careful in the company I keep. I'm very careful in who I give my time to. You might get me one time, you're not going to get me twice if there's toxicity and ignorance. And so for example, I'm in the coffee shop all the time. I rotate, but I have my favorites and I meet people all the time who want to have coffee. And I'm able to just yesterday three hours with someone and I'm able to put my pastoral hat on and just sit and be present with people. That's me creating a table. Had that conversation gone differently, I would say it certainly would not have lasted three hours. And I'm not making space and giving energy to them anymore because I know what they're bringing to do is toxic for me. It's unhealthy for me. Now, if we turned around and we had some conversations and can get on the same page, again, I'm not saying you have to agree with me on everything, but I'm also talking about tone. I'm talking about the energy, the spirit that person carries. I'm talking about their end goal. That's me giving an example. That's an example of me setting a table. The sacred spaces that I create, I'm willing to invite you in. And if we can maintain that peace and that joy, and it can be life-giving, and again, we don't even have to agree and we don't have to be in the same faith.(39:03):I have conversations all the time, people of other faiths or non-faith, and it's been life-giving for me, incredibly life-giving for me, for both of us I think. But I won't do that for, I've also had a couple of times when the person was far right, or in my dms on social media, someone appears to want to have a civil conversation, but really it was a bait. It was debate me into debate. And then next thing you know, insults and I block. And so I block because I'm not giving you space my space anymore. I'm not giving you access to do that to me anymore. So for me, it's creating a table is all the spaces I occupy that are mine, social media spaces, platform, a coffee shop. Where am I attend church,Right now I don't. And my church is in that coffee shop When I have those, when Jesus says with two or more gathered, there I am in the midst. I take that very seriously.When we gather, when me and someone or three of us are sitting and talking, and I'm trusting that God is present, God is in the space between us and it is been life-giving for us. So all that to say, wherever my body is, wherever I'm present, the table is present, the metaphorical table is there, and I'm careful about who I invite into that space because it's sacred for me. My health is at stake,Time and energy is at stake. And so that's how I've been living my life in the last five years or so is again, I don't even accept every invitation to preach anymore because I have to ask myself, I have have to check in my body.Right? No, I don't think this is what I'm supposed to do. And then there's sometimes I'm like, yeah, I want to preach there. I like that space. I trust them. And so that's me sharing a table. I'm going to their location, but I also bring in my table and I'm asking them to join me at the table.Danielle (41:46):I love that you check in with your body. I was even just about to ask you that. What do you notice in your body when you're setting up that table? Phil? What would you recommend? Someone's listening, they're like, these guys are crazy. I've never checked in my body once in my life. Can you share how you started doing that or what it was just at the beginning?Phil Allen Jr. (42:13):So community resiliency model, the first thing we teach is tracking,Noticing and paying attention to the sensations that's going on in your body,They're pleasant or unpleasant or neutral. And for me, one of the things I noticed long before I ever got connected to this was when something didn't feel right for me, I could sometimes feel a knot in my stomach. My heart rate would start increasing, and that's not always bad. So I had to wait. I had to learn to wait and see what that meant. Sometimes it just means nervousness, excitement, but I know God is calling me to it. So I had to wait to make sure it was that. Or was it like, I'm not supposed to do this thing.So we use this term called body literacy, learning to read, paying attention to what's happening in the body. And that could mean sometimes palms get sweaty, your body temperature rises and muscles get tight. Maybe there's some twitching, right? All these little things that we just ignore, our bodies are telling us something. And I don't disconnect that from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit knowing how to reach us, how to speak, not just a word of revelation, but in our bodies. And once I learned that, I trusted that God was in that. So I learned years ago when I was supposed to say something publicly, if I'm in a public space, I knew when I was supposed to say something. It took me a couple of years and I figured it out. And this is before ever learning, tracking and all this stuff.My heart would start racing and it would not stop. And it'd be the sense of urgency, that thing that thought you have, you have to say it now.I'm an introvert. I speak for a living. I present, but I don't like to say anything unless I have to. And I learned I could sit through something and be calm and comfortable and not have to say a word. But then I also learned that there were times when I'm supposed to say something here and I started listening to that. So paying attention to those sensations, those things that we ignore, that's happening in our bodies because our nervous system is activated for some reason.Danielle (44:57):I love to hear you say it. And also it's one of the things I think we naturally want to turn off when we're in a high trauma environment or come from a high trauma background. Or maybe you don't know what to do with the sensations, right?Can you just say a couple things about what moved you over that hump? How did you step into that despite maybe even any kind of, I don't know, reservations or just difficultiesTracking your body?Phil Allen Jr. (45:33):Getting language for what I was already doing, because with crim, one of the things that was revelatory for me was I was like, wait a minute. I already do a lot of these things. So for instance, touch and feel can settle out. Nervous systems, surfaces, you can put your hand, I have my hand on my armrest. It's smooth. If I'm nervous about something, I can literally just rub this smooth surface. It feels really good, and it can settle my nervous system, right? A sip of water, a drink of water can settle your nervous system. These are not just imaginations. This is literally how the body responds. You know this. So when they gave me language for things I had already been doing, so for instance, resourcing. And you had asked me earlier, and I mentioned my grandmother, if you paid attention to my face, I probably had a smile on my face talking about her.Because that resource, it brings up sensations in my body that are pleasant.My heart rate slows down. I could feel the warmth in my cheeks from smiling. So that's something that I tap into. And that's one of the ways that you can understand tracking when you think about a person, place, or thing that is pleasant, and then pay attention to what's going on in your body. And it might be neutral because it takes a while to be able to learn how to identify these things. And when I started doing that and I realized, wait a minute, my body, I feel settled. I feel at peace when I do this or do that. And that's when I said, okay, there's science behind this. And so that's when five years ago is when I started really like, I'm going to continue to do this and share this and practice this. I use it in my nonprofit racial solidarity project because this is how we stay engaged in the conversation about race. We get triggered, we get activated. A nervous system says threat. This person is threat, or this idea is a threat, especially when it disorients what we've been taught all our lives. And we get defensive, we get impulsive, and we argue and then we out.(48:18):So I use this as part of mentoring people to stay engaged by giving them the skills to regulate their nervous system when they're in those conversations, or if they're watching the news and they don't like what they see, they want to turn the news or they want to just shut it off. Some people hear the word critical race theory and it's already triggering for them,Absolutely. And what do you do? You check out, you disengage. You get defensive. Well, that's not necessarily how they feel. It's what they're sensing in their body. Their nervous system is triggered. So if they had the skills to settle that regulate their nervous system, they could probably stay engaged enough to listen to what's actually being said. It might actually come to, oh, I didn't realize that.Danielle (49:18):It's so good to hear you talk about it though. It's so encouraging. It's like, oh man. Being in our bodies, I think is one way. We know our faith more, and I actually think it's one way we can start to step in and cross and understand one another. But I think if we're not in our bodies, I think if we maintain some sort of rigidity or separation that it's going to be even harder for us to come together.Phil Allen Jr. (49:51):I'm crazy a little bit, but I ran running, taught me how to breathe. No other practice in my faith taught me how to breathe. And I don't mean in a meditative kind of way, religious kind of way. I mean just literally breathing properly.That's healthy.Danielle (50:13):It is healthy. Breathing is great. Yeah.Phil Allen Jr. (50:16):I want to be actually alive. But running forces you to have to pay attention to your body breathing. What type of pain is this in my knee? Is this the type of pain that says stop running? Or is this the type of pain that says this is minor and it's probably going to go away within the next half a mile?Right. Which then teaches us lessons in life. This pain, this emotional pain that I'm feeling, does it say, stop doing the thing that I'm doing, or is this something I have to go through because God is trying to reveal something to me?Running has taught me that. That's why running is a spiritual discipline for me. The spiritual discipline I didn't know I needed.Danielle (51:07):Yep. You're going to have to, yeah, keep going. Keep going.Phil Allen Jr. (51:10):Sorry. I was going to say, it taught me how to pay attention to my body, from my feet to my breathing. It taught me to pay attention to my body. When I dealt with AFib last year is because I pay attention to my body. When my heart wasn't beating the right way, it was like something ain't right. So I didn't try to push through it like I would have 10, 15, 20 years ago, paying attention to my body, said, stop. Go to urgent care. Next thing you know, I'm in an emergency room. I didn't know that with all this stuff attached to me. Next thing you know, I got these diagnoses. Next thing you know, I'm on medication. And fortunately the medication has everything stabilized. I still have some episodes of arrhythmia. I don't know if it's ever going to go away. Hopefully I can get off of these medications. I feel great. Matter of fact, I didn't take my medication this morning. I got to take 'em when we get done, brother. So all that to say, man, paying attention to what's happening in my body has helped me to deal with this current reality. It's helped me to stay grounded, helped me to make wise decisions. I trust that God, that though what I'm reading in my body, that the spirit of God is in that,(52:46):Is knowing how to speak to me, knowing what I'm going to pay attention to, what I'm going to respond to. Oh, that's how you read that. You're going to respond to that. Okay. That I'm going to urge you and prompt you through these bodily sensations, if you will.Danielle (53:10):Yeah. I don't really have a lot to say to answer that. It's just really beautiful and gorgeous. And also, please take your medicine. How can people reach you? How can they find out more about your work? How can they read what you're writing and what you're thinking? Where can they find you?Phil Allen Jr. (53:33):So on social media, everything is Phil Allen Jr. So whether that's Instagram. Instagram is actually Phil Allen Jr. PhD.It. LinkedIn and Facebook. Phil Allen Jr. On Facebook, there's a regular page and there's an author page. I don't really use the author page. I'm trying to figure out how to delete that. But the regular page, Phil Allen, Jr. Threads, Phil Allen Jr. I don't do X, but LinkedIn, Phil Allen Jr. My book Open Wounds. You can either go to your local bookstore, I want to support local bookstores. You can ask them if they have it, open Wounds, the Story of Racial Trauma, racial Tragedy, trauma and Redemption. And my other book, the Prophetic Lens, the Camera and Black Moral Agency from MLK to Darnella Frazier. You can find those books on Amazon, or you can go to your local bookstore and ask them to order it for you because it supports your local bookstore. Or you can go directly to fortress press.com and order it. It goes directly. You're supporting the publisher that publish my books, which helps, which actually helps me most. But those are three ways you can get those books. And then hopefully in the next year or so, I have three book projects. I'm kind of in different stages of right now that I'm working on, and hopefully one comes out in the next year.Yeah. Year and a half. We'll see.Danielle (55:21):That's exciting. Well, Phil, thank you so much. I'm going to stop recording. As always, thank you for joining us and at the end of the podcast, our notes and resources, and I encourage you to stay connected to those who are loving in your path and in your community. Stay tuned.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in CounselingEmail: asolidfoundationcoaching@gmail.comPhone:  +1.5104686137Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.comI have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me… Rebecca (01:12):Say, oh, this is for black women, and then what? Because I quoted a couple of black people that count. I don't want to do that. And also I'm still trying to process. When you run a group like that for, and it's not embedded in something like a story workshop or a larger kind of thing, the balance of how do you give people the information and still leave room to process all of that. I'm still trying to figure out what does it look like? What does it feel like? What does it sound like? And I won't be able to figure, it's not like I can figure it out before the group and you know what I mean? You just have to roll with it. So yeah,Danielle (02:01):All those things. That's so hard, man. Man, dude, that's so hard. It's so hard to categorize it. Even What's the right time of day to hold this? What are the right words to say to tell people, this is how you can show up. And even when you say all those things and you think you've created some clarity or safety or space, they still show up in their own way, of course. And they may not have read your email. They may have signed all this stuff and it may not be what they want. Or maybe it changes and it becomes something even more beautiful. I don't know. That's how I've experienced it.Rebecca (02:39):It's all those things, and I think, and this is what I want to do, this is taking this work into a community and a space that is never going to show up in Seattle for all a thousand reasons. And soDanielle (02:56):Thousands of dollar reasons,Rebecca (02:58):Right? Thousands of dollar reasons. And so this is what I want to do. And so the million dollar question, how do you actually do that with some integrity? How do you do it in a way that actually, I don't even know if I could say I know that I want it to produce a particular result is just when I started doing this on my own, I had a lot of people reach out to me and go like, this is amazing. This is a brilliant, this is something I've been looking for without knowing that's what I've been looking for. Do you know what I mean? I think that that's true, sort of that evangelical refugee space. That's true right now. I think it's appealing on those levels. I think for people who would not necessarily go to therapy for the hundred of reasons why that's an uncomfortable thing. Culturally, this feels like it has a little more oxygen in the room,Danielle  (04:20):And I'll turn my screen off. I'll make the call and then yeah, then I want to hear a little bit about your business, more about your group, and I, I'd love to just, I want to focus this whole season on what is reality in the realm of faith, culture, life therapy, religion, if you're in a religion versus a faith. Yeah. Just those what is our reality? Because I think even as you talk about group, it's like what is the reality for that group of people for accessing care? So that's the overall season theme.Speaker 2 (05:00):Okay.Speaker 1 (05:02):How does that sound for you?Speaker 2 (05:03):That sounds great.Speaker 1 (05:04):Yeah. I know you have a lot of thoughts,Speaker 2 (05:07):But we do good bouncing off each other's thoughts. Me and you were good.Speaker 1 (05:13):So tell me how you started your own business.Speaker 2 (05:16):That's a good question. There's probably a long answer and a short answer. The long one is that I went and got a master's in marriage and family from a seminary 20 plus years ago, and by the time I finished my degree, I chose to go back to being a full-time attorney. And there's a story there, as there always is, that has to do with me almost being kicked out of theSpeaker 3 (05:55):ProgramSpeaker 2 (05:56):Because someone lodged a complaint against me as a person. The stated reason behind the claim was that my disability was a distraction to clients,(06:09):And I was absolutely undone and totally shredded, all just completely undone by the entire ordeal experience, all of it. It just really undid me in a way that I don't know if I could have put the pieces together then, but I think that played a huge part in me going, I'm going to go back to my original career, which was being an attorney, and I will put this down and I don't know. And so it's 20 plus years later, I still have that whatever was the inclination inside of me that made me say, this work is the kind of work I want to do is still there. And so I think this time around I felt empowered, I felt supported. I felt like I had people and community around me, people like you and lots of people that was like, I can actually do this, and I don't necessarily need the permission of an institution or the rubber stamp of another person to actually take what I have learned about living life and offer it to someone else. So I find myself now the owner and practitioner of solid foundation story Coaching, and we're going to see where the Lord leads and we're going to see where we end up.Speaker 1 (07:38):Okay. When in any moment, I might have to hop off here, you said nine 10 to nine 15, but what do you imagine then for your first offerings? I know you jumped in a little bit at the beginning and we kind of touched on it, but what are your first, what's your desire? What are you trying to offer?Speaker 2 (08:00):That's a good confusion too. I think a couple of things. I come from a very conservative evangelical Christian background that is also, there's these parallel roots in my background that are rooted in the black church. And every once in a while I can feel my evangelical why and what and why, and what I think the short answer is just care. You asked me what do you want to offer? And that I think my answer is care for a lot of reasons. When I look at my own story and my own life and my own path, there are lots of ways and places where I can identify. I didn't have the care that I needed. I didn't have the support that I needed to get where I wanted to go, sort of maybe unscathed, maybe in the shortest path possible with the least amount of obstacles as a woman, as a person of color, as a black American woman in the church, in as a person with a disability, all kinds of ways in which there were places in ways that I needed care that I didn't get. And even with all that being said, once, twice, maybe three times the exact right care at the exact right moment from the person who was capable and willing to give it, and it only takes one person at just the right time to offer just a few minutes of care and what is impossible becomes possible,(10:01):And what is too painful to breathe through becomes something that you can now face head on. So I think in some way, maybe it's paying forward what those people who offered me care gave to me, and now it's my chance to give it back.Rebecca (10:37):Right? Yeah. I mean, if I were going to go for the obvious, the things that we are most comfortable talking about at this moment in our country's history, to women who have faced misogyny in its most simplistic and its most complex and twisted ways to black folks and all that we have faced and struggled through to people of color. There are all kinds of ways in which out of my own story, there are corners that I recognize. And what do I mean by that, right? I have lived my life as an African-American woman, and so there are corners in life that I have come to recognize. That moment when you recognize that somehow this moment, which should be simple and just human has become racialized, and you catch it by a glance, a look, a silence that lasts too long, and you go like, oh, I know exactly where I am.(11:53):I may not know the person in front of me, but I know people like them, and this experience begins to feel familiar, and I know what this corner looks like, and I know what it sounds like, and I know where the dip in the sidewalk is, and I know where there's this pothole that if you step in it the wrong way, you're going to twist your ankle. I know exactly how long you have to cross the street before that flashing red hand comes up. The ways in which, because you've been here before because you've struggled in a familiar moment, you know what it looks like and sounds like and feels like,(12:33):And because it is familiar, then perhaps you can offer something of wisdom or kindness to someone who's new to that corner who doesn't quite know how to navigate it. So I can say that about being black, about being a woman. There are all kinds of things in my own story that have made these corners familiar to me. So yes to all of those things, all of those kinds of people, that there's something I have in common with the parallels of their story that I can say, Hey, I know this corner and I have a flashlight and I can shine my light in front of your path so you can take another step.Danielle (13:17):How do you feel in your body as you say that?Rebecca (13:22):I feel good. It feels like me. You say, how do you feel in your body? Why would you ask that question? What do we mean by that? Which is part of this work, which is being able to recognize when I'm comfortable in my own skin and when I'm not, and being able to recognize why that might be true in any given moment. And so this part feels good to me. It feels like steps I was trying to take 20 years ago that got hijacked and sidetracked by what happened to me in grad school. And it feels like work that I was meant to do because of the corners that I know. So I feel good. I can breathe deep.Danielle (14:12):How do you know when you feel good? What tells you you're feeling goodRebecca (14:16):For me? That I can take a full deep breath. I have come to recognize that shallow breathing means I am not comfortable, so I can take a deep breath and it doesn't feel restricted to me that that's probably, for me, the most notable thing is to say that. And because I am not doing a lot of self editing, I feel okay saying what I have say. I don't have a lot of self-talk of like, Ooh, don't say that or don't say that. Yeah,Danielle (14:57):Which feels like something you can give your participants. I think I mentioned to you, I really wanted to hear about what you're up to business, but it really feels to me like a special kind of work in this season. And I know I mentioned, I was like, well, what's the reality of this season? Could you speak about the intersection of your work and what you see as the reality of our current climate?Rebecca (15:29):So when you first said that to me, my first reaction is go like, oh, I know what my reality is as a black woman, as a mother of two kids, as somebody that lives a mile from where the first enslaved Africans set foot on us soil. I have a very clear sense of my reality, but I'm also going like, and I'm sitting across from you, Danielle, who I know in this moment is living a very different reality as a Latino woman. And so the one thing, or sort of the second thought that comes to my mind after my first reaction, I know what my reality is, is something that I learned recently. I did a webinar and I moderated a panel, and one of the individuals on the panel is a Latino pastor. I'll call him Pastor Carlos. And one of the things that he said to me is that if my truth in any given moment is crafted at the expense of another human, my truth cannot be the absolute truth.Yeah. Now I'm paraphrasing a little bit. So Pastor Carlos, if you hear this, and please forgive me for the paraphrase, but what settled in me from his remarks is that if my truth in any given moment comes at the expense of another person, my truth cannot stand as the absolute truth. And he went on to say something of truth must always be defined in the context of community that we cannot discern what is reality, if you will, in a given moment without having that discussion and framing those contours in the context of community and connectedness to other people. So I could tell you my truth as a black American woman in 2025, and I already know, I know my sense of what is true in my world is going to look and sound and feel different than what is true for you in this moment. Right?Danielle (18:03):Talking about reality, I feel that even despite our different truths, you and I find ourselves touching ground like physical ground, touching energy, spirituality in the same way, not thinking the same. I don't mean that, but living in a space where you and I can connect and affirm one another's actual experiences in the world, actual day to day. I can tell you about a neighbor, you could tell me about work or one of your kids, and there's a sense that you haven't lived that exact, you're not with me in my house, I'm not with your kid in their school, but there's a sense that we can touch into a reality. We're in the ground somewhere together. So I'm wondering, what do you think makes that possible for us to share that space?Rebecca (18:57):I mean, it might be I part the willingness to share, and I don't mean, well, maybe I mean that in both senses of the word, the willingness to be shared in terms of vulnerable, I'm willing to tell you. And so when you ask me, Hey, how are you? When I say, Hey, Danielle, what's up with you? It's more than just the flippant, oh, I'm good. I'm cool. Right? It is this intentional move to slow down for 60 seconds or 60 minutes and go like, here's really happening with me.(19:38):And the other sort of piece of that, when I say the word share, I mean the willingness for there to be a little wiggle room in what I understand to be true. And that's not to say that I will take your truth and replace it with mine and obliterate my experience, not suggesting that I'm saying that my truth and your truth are going to butt up against each other and in the place where they touch, what do we do with that friction? Does that friction become a point of contention, a point of disagreement, a point of anger, of judgment where I villainize you and demonize you and other you? Or does that place where my truth and your truth rub up against each other? Does that become a place of learning? Does that become a place of flexibility of saying like, huh, I never thought about it the way you thought about it. Say more. And my experience between you and I is that there has been a willingness for years to go. What do you know about the world that I don't know? What do you see that I don't see? And how does your perspective actually alter if even just a little bit what I believe or know to be true of the world?Danielle (21:04):Yes, I agree with you. I think we find ourselves in a time though where the sharing of our reality feels unique, where groups, even groups, we would call them bipoc or black, indigenous people of color. You even see skirmishes between groups. And so I think it's laid in one with so much fear. Number two, with so much hypervigilance. And again, I'm not saying none of those things aren't warranted, but I think a group like yours or therapy or somatic work hopefully opens us up to be able to see the humanity of another person.That make sense or what do you thinking when I sayRebecca (21:49):No, it does. When you were talking about in this moment, it feels unique for groups to kind of share their experience. It caused me to kind of think about why is that right? And I don't think that's an accident. I don't think it is a coincidence. I think that there are powers that are crafting these sort of larger narratives that suggest that we have to be at odds with each other, that there isn't a way for us to see each other and recognize one another's humanity without there being this catastrophic threat to my own humanity. And I think part of why it feels so unique in this moment is because I think we're having to do some pretty significant work to fight against that larger narrative that would suggest that we can't be friends, that we must be enemies.Danielle(22:49):Yeah. What do you feel as you say that? I mean, when you say that I feel like I want to cry, I want to be angry, I want to be choked up, and those are all familiar for me. They're familiar for me.Rebecca (23:08):Well, mostly I feel a kind of loss. And what do I mean by that? I saw this clip on Instagram recently where it's a family. They're probably white, Caucasian American family sitting down to dinner at a table, the table's full of food,(23:33):And there's a bowl of strawberries on the table, which in my house during this time of year, there's forever. There's always strawberries in my house anyway. And so somebody says the blessing over the food, dear God, thank you for the food and the hands that prepared it, this sort of common blessing that is also an everyday occurrence at my house. Literally the words, God bless the food and the hands that prepared it. And then it cuts, the video cuts from the scene of this family, it tucked away safely in their kitchen to a migrant worker in a strawberry field who is being pursued by ice agents. And he says, you're welcome very much for the strawberries. And then the video ends that makes me want to cry, and it makes me think of you. And because that's not a thought I ever thought about when my kids pray, thank you for the hands that prepared it. The thought that went through my mind is like they're praying for me as the mom who cooked the food, who washed the strawberries and sliced them and put them in a bowl and set them on the table, never occurred to me until I saw that video I about the person who picked the strawberries and placed them in the container that found its way to my grocery store that found its way to my kitchen table.(25:08):And so now I wonder, what else do I not know? What else have I missed my entire life? What else did I not catch? And what does that mean for this moment in history when there are literally ice checkpoints in the city where I live?Danielle (25:39):I think to survive this moment and what I hear from my people, we have to take ourselves out of the reality of the moment somehow. You still had to get up and you had to make yourself some scrambled eggs. You have to eat your strawberry, you get to eat your strawberry. We're both at work today, et cetera. And whenever we touch into that other space, we have to let the energy process through us or we won't make it. And I think that process allows us to share a reality, the movement of energy allowing it. It's not like we can live in that state all the time, but I think there's certain segments of the population that don't allow anything in. They can't because otherwise it would contradict their view of faith or what's happened.Rebecca (26:31):Yes. Which I think is why I would do something like offer a group a story group, because it is the opportunity to intentionally take a few minutes to create the space to allow that to process through us.Danielle (26:49):So how do people then, Rebecca, find you? They're enjoying this conversation. I want to hear more from her. I,Rebecca (27:01):So I have a website. It's called Rebuilding my foundation.com. I have Instagram solid foundation Coach is my Instagram site. So two me an email, check out the website, join a group,Danielle (27:26):Join a group. What about people like, Hey, I want to hang out with Danielle and Rebecca. What does that look like? Oh,Rebecca (27:35):Yeah. I mean, we're good for at least once a year doing something together. So it sounds like maybe we need to pull a conversation together, maybe a group together, maybe like a two hour seminar workshop space, which we did last year. We did one with a few other of our friends and colleagues called Defiant Resilience. Again, to create this space where people could process what was happening in this moment in history with people who are safe ish, right? We can't ever really promise safety, but we create some sense of parameters that allow you to take a step or two.Danielle (28:25):Rebecca, what do you say to that person? I get these calls all the time. Well, I can't go to therapy. It's too much money. Or I don't know about group. I don't trust people. If people get stuck, what is one way you even got yourself unstuck to even start?Rebecca  (28:40):Oh, yeah, true. First thing I'd say is if group sounds too risky and not going to lie, you and I both know it's risky.(28:55):You're taking some risk. So if that feels too big of a step, guess what? You get to be where you are. And then I'd say try it one-on-one session. Try it once, see how it feels. It is definitely something that I do. I know it's something you do too, where before you would recommend even that somebody step into a group that you might meet with them 2, 3, 4 times one-on-one once or twice to kind of see, this is what it would feel like to talk to another person about things that we have been taught you're not supposed to talk about. And slowly give a person the opportunity to decide for themselves what good care.You're allowed to say, this doesn't feel like good care to me, so I'm not going to do it today or tomorrow. And how amazing it can be to have somebody go, I love that you advocated for yourself, and I absolutely intend to respect that boundary because for so many of us, we either were taught not to set boundaries or when they were set, we have the common experience of them just being obliterated on a regular basis. So even that opportunity to reach out once, try and decide it's not for you, can actually be a moment of empowerment.Danielle (30:25):Yeah, I guess I think when I'm stuck, it's usually like we call some of those sticky points, like trauma points even. So I wouldn't say it doesn't always have to be major, some huge event, but I think there's often been, for me, there's a fear of getting help, whether it's a medical doctor or a therapist or a group or whatever it may be. Or if I have to call the county for something, I'm like, are they going to listen me? Are they going to believe me in all these kinds of situations and will they care what I have to say?Rebecca (30:58):Yeah. I think too, when you say fear of getting help, I go like, oh yeah, ding, ding. Right? I mean, some of that, at least for me, the narrative that can be around black women is that we have it all together at all times. We got it under control. And so the notion that I wouldn't have it under control all by myself, like 24 hours a day, seven days a week, the notion that I would have to request that someone else step in and assist means admitting something about myself that I don't feel comfortable admitting that I've been taught is not where I'm allowed to live. And so that also I think can be part of this fear. I don't know if that's true for you. Tell me how does that land?Danielle (31:49):Yeah, absolutely true. But it goes across so many realms where sometimes advocating for yourself, whether it's getting a question answered at a shoe store, to buying paint, to getting, I don't know, going to the er, the common themes I had my gallbladder recently removed, and two nurses told me that if I had been a man, I would've been seen faster. Because men, they believe men more about abdominal pain, and I think it's because there's maybe more expression by men of what pain is. And I don't know this for sure. I don't have a scientific research behind it, but part of me wondered, is it because my pain was indicated by my blood pressure, not by me telling them that's how they knew it. So I think that's one reason we have to really pay attention to our bodies, and I think wherever we are, we're not used to being believed, or even if someone knows, if they care, again, whether it's from going to pay a parking ticket, so going to the doctor, I just think across the board, people that are female are generally not as welcome to express how they're feeling and what's going on. Just some thoughts.Rebecca (33:11):Yeah. Again, right. It is that part where there's this larger story at play that impacts how we move individually and what we feel like we're permitted to do or not do, say or not say. You and I have talked about this before, that question of will they believe me is a kind of anticipatory intelligenceYou're trying to anticipate how you will be received, how your words will be believed, how your story will be read in any given context, and who has time, your gallbladder. And so I would imagine you're in this excruciating pain and you're having to not only tend to that, but are you going to believe me? Right? And what if the blood pressure indicator had not been there, right?Danielle (34:07):Yeah. Yeah. All of us are different. Okay. Rebecca, I'm going to put all your info in the notes. People are going to light up your phone. They're going to light up your email, and I do believe we'll be doing something collaborative in the future. Absolutely. Yeah. With other co-conspirators.Thank you for joining us today. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for listening to the raw conversations we're having, and I just encourage you to get in conversations with your friends, your family, people around you, people you really disagree with, maybe even people you don't like. Try to hold yourself there. Try to have those conversations. Try to be able to receive the difficult comments. Try to be able to say the difficult things. Let's keep working on moving towards one another.   Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

This week the Dating Detectives welcome Dominique, whose “movie-perfect” meet-cute with a quiet coworker spirals into a chilling case study in coercive control. After love-bombing, and a whirlwind Halloween wedding, a dream Smoky Mountains honeymoon gives way to explosive rage, religiously justified domination, isolation from friends, terrifying reckless driving, stalking, and paranoid delusions. Dominique walks us through the pink flags she ignored, the gaslighting that made her second-guess reality, and the careful plan she used to reclaim her home after his arrest. Content warnings: domestic abuse, religious trauma, stalking, mental health crisis. If you're in an unsafe situation, you'll find support resources below.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode is sponsored by Wayfair. Refresh your home for less. Shop back-to-routine deals by visiting Wayfair.com.This episode is sponsored by Miracle Made. Get silver-infused, bacteria-fighting, temperature-regulating sheets and towels at TryMiracle.com/TDD and use code TDD to save over 40% and claim a FREE 3-piece towel set.This episode is sponsored by Suvie. Get the smart countertop kitchen robot that refrigerates, cooks, and meal-preps dinner while you're away. Go to Suvie.com/DatingDetectives to start your 100-day risk-free trial and get 16 FREE meals with your order.Take control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/tdd today to get 10% off your first month.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Reality and Faith Prompts1. What are the formations or structures for how you know you are in reality in regards to your faith? Do you have indicators? Internal senses? External resources? 2. Who are you in active dialogue with in regards to your faith? Who that is living and who that is passed on? 3. When you encounter dissonance with your reality of faith, how do you stay grounded in your experience?TranscriptsDanielle (00:00):To my computer. So thank you Starlet. Thank you Tamis for being with me. I've given already full introductions. I've recorded those separately. So the theme of the conversation and kind of what we're getting into on this podcast this season is I had this vision for talking about the themes have been race, faith, culture, church in the past on my podcast. But what I really think the question is, where is our reality and where are our touchpoints in those different realms? And so today there's going to be more info on this in the future, but where do we find reality and how do we form our reality when we integrate faith? So one of the questions I was asking Tamis and Starlet was what are the formations or structures for how you know are in reality in regards to your faith? Do you have indicators? Do you have internal senses? Do you have external resources? And so that's where I want to jump off from and it's free flow. I don't do a whole lot of editing, but yeah, just curious where your mind goes when you hear that, what comes to mind and we'll jump from there.Starlette (01:12):I immediately thought of baptism, baptismal waters. My baptismal identity forms and shapes me. It keeps me in touch with my body. It keeps me from being disembodied. Also, it keeps me from being swindled out of authority over my body due to the dangerous irrationalism of white body supremacy. So that's one thing. Protest also keeps me grounded. I have found that acts of defiance, minor personal rebellions, they do well for me. They keep me spiritually that I feel like it keeps me in step with Jesus. And I always feel like I'm catching up that I'm almost stepping on his feet. So for me, baptismal identity and protesting, those are the two things come to me immediately.Tamice (02:04):Whoa, that's so deep. Wow, I never thought about that. But I never thought about protests being a thing that groundsBecause I mean I've just been, for me I would say I've been working on the right so, and y'all know me, so I got acronyms for days. But I mean I think that the radical ethical spirituality that's tethered to my tradition, that's a rule of life, but it's also a litmus test. So for me, if you can't tell the truth, we don't have conversations about non-violence and loving enemies. I don't get to ethical spirituality unless you come through the front door of truth telling and truth telling in that sense of the r. And the rest arrest mix tape is radical. Angela Davis says radical and that's grasping stuff at the root. So before we have conversations about forgiveness for instance, or Jesus or scripture or what is right and what is moral, it's very important that we first tell the truth about the foundations of those realities and what we even mean by those terms and whose those terms serve and where they come from. I talk about it asking to see the manager. We need see the manager(03:24):Me that grounds me is now if something comes in and it calls me to move in a different way or corrects me or checks me in a certain way, I say yes to it if it comes through the door of truth telling because it means I also got to be true and tell the truth to myself. So that keeps me grounded. That kind of acronym is kind of how I move, but it's also how I keep toxic ways of doing religion out. And I also have come back into relationship with trees and grass and the waters and that's been really powerful for moving down into different types of intelligence. For me, the earth has been pulling me into a different way of knowing and being in that part brings me to ancestors. Just like you starlet my ancestors, I keep finding them in the trees and in the water and in the wind. So it's like, well I need them real bad right now. So that's where I'm kind of grounding myself these days.But to your point about grounding and protest, I feel most compelled to show up in spaces where the ground is crying out screaming. I feel like it beckons me there. And we talked about the most recent news of Trey being found and you talked about truth telling and what resonated immediately. And it didn't sit right with me that African-American people, people of African descent know not to take their lives in that way because of the traumatic history that when you say things like you don't suspect any foul play, it sounds like what has historically been named as at the hands of persons unknown where that no one is held responsible for the death of African-American people. That's what ties it in for me. And I feel like it's an ancestral pool that they didn't leave this way, they didn't leave in the way that they were supposed to, that something stinks and that they're crying out to say, can you hear me? Come over here Terry a while here. Don't leave him here. Don't let up on it because we didn't call him here somebody. So I love that you said that you are, feel yourself being grounded in and call back to the earth because I do feel like it speaks to us,But there are telltale signs in it and that the trees will tell us too. And so I didn't have a hand in this. It was forced on me and I saw it all come and talk to me. Put your hand here, put your head here and you can hear me scream and then you can hear me scream, you can hear him scream. He was calling out the whole time. That's what I believe in. That's how I test reality. I tested against what the earth is saying like you said, but I think we have to walk the ground a bit. We have to pace the ground a bit. We can't just go off of what people are saying. Back to your point about truth telling, don't trust nobody I don't trust. I don't trust anybody that's going to stop because you can't fix a lie. So if you're going to come in with deception, there's not much else I can do with you. There's not much I can say to you. And I find that white body supremacy is a supreme deception. So if we can't start there in a conversation, there's nothing that I can say to youTamice (06:46):That's facts. It's interesting that you talked about baptism, you talked about grounding and I had this story pop up and while you were talking again it popped up again. So I'm going to tell it. So we are not going to talk about who and all the things that happened recently, but I had made some comments online around that and around just the choice to be blind. So I've been talking a lot about John nine and this passage where it is very clear to everyone else what's happening, but the people who refuse to see, refuse to see.So in that, I was kind of pulled into that. I was in Mississippi, I was doing some stuff for the book and this lady, a chaplain, her name is Sally Bevin, actually Sally Bevel, she walked up to me, she kept calling me, she was like, Tam me, she want to come. I have my whole family there. We were at the Mississippi Book Fair and she kept saying, Tam me, she want to come join, dah, dah, dah. Then my family walked off and they started to peruse and then she asked me again and I was like, no, I'm good. And I was screaming. I mean I'm looking in the screen and the third time she did it, it pulled me out and I was like, this woman is trying to pull me into being present. And she said to me, this is funny, starlet. I said, I feel like I need to be washed and I need a baptism because this phone feels like so on right now and the wickedness is pulling me. So she poured, she got some ice, cold water, it was 95 degrees, poured cold water on my hands, had me wash my hands and she took the cold water. She put a cross on my forehead. And you know what she said to me? She said, remember your baptism?She said, remember your baptism? And when I was baptized, even though it was by a man who will not also be named, when I was baptized the wind, there was a whirlwind at my baptism. It was in 2004, that same wind hit in Mississippi and then I felt like I was supposed to take my shoes off. So I walked around the Mississippi Festival with no shoes on, not knowing that the earth was about to receive two people who did not deserve to be hung from trees. And there's something very, I feel real talk, I feel afraid for white supremacy right now in the name of my ancestors and I feel like I'm calling on everything right now. And that's also grounding me.Starlette (09:36):I was with Mother Moses last week. I went to Dorchester County just to be with her because the people were here. Take me. I said, I'll leave them all here. I know you said there are a few here, but give me the names, give me the last names of the people because I don't have time for this. I see why she left people. I see why she was packing. So to your point, I think it's important that we talk to the ancestors faithfully, religiously. We sit down at their feet and listen for a bit about how they got over and how they got through it and let them bear witness to us. And she does it for me every time, every single time she grounds, she grounds meDanielle (10:23):Listening to you all. I was like, oh wait. It is like Luke 19 where Jesus is coming in on the show and he didn't ride in on the fanciest plane on a donkey. And if you're familiar with that culture that is not the most elevated animal, not the elevated animal to ride, it's not the elevated animal. You don't eat it. Not saying that it isn't eaten at times, but it's not right. So he rides in on that and then people are saying glory to God in the highest and they're praising him and the Pharisees are like, don't do that because it's shameful and I don't remember the exact words, but he's basically be quiet. The rocks are going to tell the story of what happened here. He's walking his way. It kind of reminds me to me. So what you're saying, he's walking away, he's going to walk and he's going to walk that way and he's going to walk to his death. He's walking it in two scenarios that Jesus goes in to talk about. Your eyes are going to be blind to peace, to the real way to peace. It's going to be a wall put around you and you're going to miss out. People are going to destroy you because you missed your chance.Starlette (11:50):Point again creation. And if you're going to be a rock headed people, then I'll recruit this rock choir. They get ready to rock out on you. If there's nothing you're going to say. So even then he says that creation will bear witness against you. You ain't got to do it. You ain't got to do it. I can call these rock. You can be rock headed if you want to. You can be stony hearted if you want to. I can recruit choir members from the ground,Tamice (12:16):But not even that because y'all know I'm into the quantum and metaphysics. Not even that they actually do speak of course, like words are frequencies. So when you hold a certain type of element in your hand, that thing has a frequency to it. That's alright that they said whatever, I don't need it from you. Everything else is tapped into this.Starlette (12:39):Right. In fact, it's the rocks are tapped into a reality. The same reality that me and this donkey and these people throwing stuff at my feet are tapped into.You are not tapped into reality. And so that's why he makes the left and not the right because typically when a person is coming to Saka city, they head towards the temple. He went the other direction because he is like it was a big fuck. I don't use power like this. And actually what I'm about to do is raise you on power. This is a whole different type of power. And that's what I feel like our ancestors, the realities that the alternative intelligence in the world you're talking about ai, the alternative intelligence in the world is what gives me every bit of confidence to look this beast in the face and call it what it is. This isTamice (13:52):And not going to bow to it. And I will go down proclaiming it what it is. I will not call wickedness good.And Jesus said, Jesus was so when he talks about the kingdom of heaven suffering violence and the violence taken it by force, it's that it's like there's something so much more violent about being right and righteous. Y'all have to use violence because you can't tell the truth.Danielle (14:29):Do you see the split two? There's two entirely different realities happening. Two different kingdoms, two entirely different ways of living in this era and they're using quote J, but it's not the same person. It can't be, you cannot mix white Jesus and brown Jesus. They don't go together. TheyStarlette (15:00):Don't, what is it? Michael O. Emerson and Glenn e Bracy. The second they have this new book called The Religion of Whiteness, and they talk about the fact that European Americans who are racialized as white Tahi says those who believe they are white. He says that there's a group of people, the European Americans who are racialized as white, who turn to scripture to enforce their supremacy. And then there's another group of people who turn to scripture to support and affirm our sibling.It is two different kingdoms. It's funny, it came to me the other day because we talk about, I've talked about how for whiteness, the perception of goodness is more important than the possession of it.You know what I mean? So mostly what they do is seek to be absolved. Right? So it's just, and usually with the being absolved means I'm less bad than that, so make that thing more bad than me and it's a really terrible way to live a life, but it is how whiteness functions, and I'm thinking about this in the context of all that is happening in the world because it's like you cannot be good and racist period. And that's as clear as you cannot love God and mammon you will end up hating one and loving the other. You cannot love God. You cannotStarlette (16:29):Love God and hate your next of kin your sibling. Dr. Angela Parker says something really important During the Wild Goose Festival, she asked the participants there predominantly European American people, those racialized as white. She said, do you all Terry, do you Terry, do you wait for the Holy Spirit? Do you sit with yourself and wait for God to move? And it talked, it spoke to me about power dynamic. Do you feel like God is doing the moving and you wait for the spirit to anoint you, to fill you, to inspire you, to baptize you with fire? You Terry, do you wait a while or do you just the other end of that that she doesn't say, do you just get up? I gave my life to Jesus and it's done right handed fellowship, give me my certificate and walk out the door. You have to sit with yourself and I don't know what your tradition is.I was raised Pentecostal holiness and I had to tear all night long. I was on my knees calling on the name of Jesus and I swear that Baba couldn't hear me. Which octave do you want me to go in? I lost my voice. You know them people, them mothers circled me with a sheet and told me I didn't get it that night that I had to come back the next day after I sweat out my down, I sweat out my press. Okay. I pressed my way trying to get to that man and they told me he didn't hear me. He not coming to get you today. I don't hear a change. They were looking for an evidence of tongues. They didn't hear an evidence, a change speech. You still sound the way that you did when you came in here. And I think that white body supremacy, that's where the problem lies with me. There's no difference. I don't hear a change in speech. You're still talking to people as if you can look down your nose with them. You have not been submerged in the water. You did not go down in the water. White supremacy, white body supremacy has not been drowned out.Terry, you need to Terry A. Little while longer. I'll let you know when you've gotten free. When you've been lifted, there's a cloud of witnesses. Those mothers rubbing your back, snapping your back and saying, call on him. Call him like you want him. Call him like you need him and they'll tell you when they see evidence, they'll let you, you know when you've been tied up, tangled up. That's what we would say. Wrapped up in Jesus and I had to come back a second night and call on the Lord and then they waited a while. They looked, they said, don't touch her, leave her alone. He got her now, leave her alone. But there was an affirmation, there was a process. You couldn't just get up there and confess these ABCs and salvation, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. Why do you think they'll let you know when you got it?Danielle (18:56):Why do you think that happened? Why? I have a question for You'all. Why do you think that became the reality of the prayer in that moment? And we're talking about Africans that have been brought here and enslaved. Why do you think that happened on our soil that way? Why question?Tamice (19:12):I mean I'm wondering about it because when stylists talk and I keep thinking the Terry in and of itself is a refusal. It says what I see is not real. What's in front of me is not right. I'm going to wait for something else.I'm saying, the slave Bible, them taking stuff out of the Bible and it's like, but I feel like the ground, there was something about the ground that indigenous people, that indigenous people were able to help them tap into over here. It was waiting on that.Starlette (19:49):We didn't have punishment. We had a percussion session. So they ring shouted me. I didn't know what it was at the time. We didn't have all the fancy stuff. Everybody had put me in key. We didn't have, we had this and feet them people circled around me. We don't do that no more.Danielle (20:06):We don't do that no more. But don't you think if you're a person that is, and I believe Africans came here with faith already. Oh yes, there's evidence of that. So put that aside, but don't you think then even if you have that faith and it's not so different than our time and you're confronted with slave owners and plantation owners also preaching quote the same faith that you're going to have to test it out on your neighbor when they're getting saved. You're going to have to make sure they didn't catch that bug.Don't you think there's something in there? Block it. Don't you think if you know faith internally already like we do and run into someone that's white that's preaching the same thing, we have to wait it out with them. Don't you think our ancestors knew that when they were here they were waiting it out. I just noticed my spirit match that spirit. We have to wait it out. Yes, because and let's say they didn't know Jesus. Some people didn't know Jesus and they met Jesus here for whatever reason, and your example is still the white man. You have to wait it out to make sure you're not reflecting that evilness. I mean that's what I'm thinking. That's it's the absolutelyStarlette (21:20):Truth. There's a book titled Slave Testimony, and I know this because I just read about it. There's a testimony of an enslaved African-American, he's unnamed. It was written on June 26th, 1821. He's talking to Master John. He said, I want permission to speak to you if you please. He talked about, he said, where is it? Where is it? A few words. I hope that you will not think Me too bull. Sir, I make my wants known to you because you are, I believe the oldest and most experienced that I know of. He says in the first place, I want you to tell me the reason why you always preach to the white folks and keep your back to us is because they sit up on the hill. We have no chance among them there. We must be forgotten because we are near enough. We are not near enough without getting in the edge of the swamp behind you. He was calling him to account. He said, when you sell me, do you make sure that I'm sold to a Christian or heathen?He said, we are charged with inattention because of where their position. He said it's impossible for us to pay good attention with this chance. In fact, some of us scarce think that we are preached to it all. He says, money appears to be the object. We are carried to market and sold to the highest bidder. Never once inquired whether you sold to a heathen or a Christian. If the question was put, did you sell to a Christian, what would the answer be? I can tell you, I can tell what he was, gave me my price. That's all I was interested in. So I don't want people to believe that Africans who were enslaved did not talk back, did not speak back. They took him to task. He said, everybody's not literate. There's about one in 50 people who are, and I'm one of them and I may not be able to speak very well, but this is what I want to tell you. I can tell the difference. I know that you're not preaching to me the same. I know that when you talk about salvation, you're not extending it to me.Yikes. You need to know that our people, these ancestors, not only were they having come to Jesus meetings, but they were having come to your senses, meeting with their oppressor and they wrote it down. They wrote it down. I get sick of the narratives that we are not our answer. Yes we are. Yes I am. I'm here because of them. I think they called me. I think they call me here. I think the fussing that I make, the anger that I possess this need to resist every damn thing. I think they make me do thatTamice (23:35):Indeed, I think. But I didn't get my voice until they took the MLE off, had an honor with my ancestors and they came and they told me it's time. Take that mle off, MLE off. Shoot. Why Jesus ain't tell me to take no muzzle off. I'm going to tell you that now.Danielle (23:52):That's why I mean many indigenous people said, Jesus didn't come back for me because if that guy's bringing me Jesus, then now Jesus didn't come back for me.Starlette (24:07):Come on.Make it plain. Danielle, go ahead. Go ahead. Walk heavy today. Yeah, I meanDanielle (24:17):I like this conversation. Why Jesus, why Jesus didn't come back for us, the three of us. He didn't come back for us. It didn't come back from kids. He didn't come back for my husband. Nope. And so then therefore that we're not going to find a freedom through that. No, that's no desire to be in that.Tamice (24:33):None. And that's what I mean and making it very, very plain to people like, listen, I actually don't want to be in heaven with your Jesus heaven. With your Jesus would be hell. I actually have one,Starlette (24:47):The one that they had for us, they had an N word heaven for us where they would continue to be served and they wrote it down. It's bad for people who are blio foes who like to read those testimonies. It is bad for people who like to read white body supremacy For Phil. Yeah, they had one for us. They had separate creation narratives known as polygenetic, but they also had separate alon whereby they thought that there was a white heaven and an inward heaven.I didn't even know that. Starla, I didn't even know that because they said they want to make sure their favorite slave was there to serve them. Oh yes, the delusion. People tell me that they're white. I really do push back for a reason. What do you mean by that? I disagree with all of it. What part of it do you find agreeable? The relationship of ruling that you maintain over me? The privilege. White power. Which part of it? Which part of it is good for you and for me? How does it help us maintain relationship as Christians?Danielle (25:47):I think that's the reality and the dissonance we live in. Right?Starlette (25:51):That's it. But I think there needs to be a separation.Are you a white supremacist or not?Tamice (26:03):That's what I'm saying. That's why I keep saying, listen, at this point, you can't be good and racist. Let me just say that. Oh no, you got to pickStarlette (26:12):And I need to hear itTamice (26:13):Both. Yeah. I need you to public confession of it.Starlette (26:19):Someone sent me a dm. I just want to thank you for your work and I completely agree. I quickly turned back around. I said, say it publicly. Get out of my dms. Say it publicly. Put it on your page. Don't congratulate me. Within two minutes or so. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to disturb you. You are right. Okay. Okay. Okay. Did he post anything? No. Say it publicly. Denounce them. Come out from among them.Very, very plain. As a white supremacist or na, as a kid, as children. HowDanielle (26:56):Hard is it? I think that's what made this moment so real and it's a kind of a reality. Fresher actually for everybody to be honest, because it's a reality. All certain things have been said. All manner of things have been said by people. This is just one example of many people that have said these things. Not the only person that's lived and died and said these things. And then when you say, Hey, this was said, someone's like, they didn't say that. You're like, no, some people put all their content on the internet receipts. They did it themselves. That's not true. And I went to a prayer vigil. I didn't go. I sat outside a prayer vigil this weekend and I listened in and they were praying for the resurrection like Jesus of certain people that have passed on. I kid you, I sat there in the car with a friend of mine and then my youngest daughter had come with me just to hang out. She's like, what are they praying for? I was like, they're like, they were praying for a certain person to be resurrected from the dead just like Jesus. And I was so confused. I'm so confused how we got that far, honestly. But I told my kid, I said, this is a moment of reality for you. This is a moment to know. People think like this.Starlette (28:13):Also, white bodyDanielle (28:14):Supremacy is heresy. Yes. It's not even related to the Bible. Not at all.Why I steal away. This is why even the mistranslated Bible, even the Bible that you could take,Starlette (28:33):ThisThe version Danielle started. If you wouldn't have said that, I wouldn't have said that. This is exactly why I steal away. This is exactly why I leave. Because you can't argue with people like that. Now we're resurrected. IAll I need, it's like away. This is exactly why, because I can't hear what Howard Thurman calls the sound of the genuine in that. It's just not going to happen.Danielle (29:01):Can you imagine what would've happened if we would've prayed for George Floyd to be resurrected? Listen, what would've happenedStarlette (29:08):That he called the scumbag.Danielle (29:10):Yeah, but what would've happened if we would've played for their resurrection? Adam, Adam Polito. ThatStarlette (29:19):Was foundTamice (29:19):Psychosis.Starlette (29:21):Yeah. What would've happened? See, don't push me now. I feel like I need to pack. As soon as I said fill away, it's like people keep saying, what are you going to do if gets worse? I'm going to leave my, I'll sell all this crapAbout this stuff. This booby trap of capitalism. I'll it all don't about none of it. What matters most to me is my sense of ness. And when you get to talking, I almost said talking out the side of your neck. Jesus God, today, lemme God Jesus of your neck. You just need to know that's a cultural thing. That's going to have to be reevaluated. God. It just came right on out. Oh Lord. When you start saying things that go against my sense of ness that you think that I have to defend my personhood, that you want to tell me that I don't exist as a person. I don't exist as a human. Back to your reality testament. It's time for me to leave. I'm not staying here and fighting a race war or a civil war. You mamas are just violent. It's what you've always been.Tamice (30:28):Why would I stand in the middle? Why would I stand in the middle of what I know is a confrontation with yourself?Starlette (30:36):Oh, okay. Alright. I'm going to justTamice (30:38):You all. What happened last week is it, it is a confrontation with a really disturbed self and they're trying to flip it. Oh yes. They're trying to make it. Yes. But this is like, I'm trying to tell people out here, this is beyond you, Jack, that was a prophetic witness against you because now you see that what you're fighting is the mirror. Keep me out of it. I won't fight your wars. Keep me out of it. Look, James Baldwin said, y'all have to decide and figure out why you needed a nigger in the first place.I'm not a nigger. I'm a man. But you, the white people need to figure out why you created the nigger in the first place. Fuck, this is not my problem. This is a y'all and I don't have anything invested in this. All I'm trying to do is raise my kids, man. Come on. Get out of here with that. I'm sorry.Danielle (31:48):No, you keep going and then go back to starlet. Why do you think then they made her Terry? They had to make sure she doesn't buy into that. That's my opinion.Tamice (32:00):It's funny too because I see, I mean, I wasn't Pentecostal. I feel like who's coming to mind as soon as you said that de y'all know I'm hip hop. Right? So KRS one.Starlette (32:12):Yes. Consciousness.Tamice (32:14):The mind. Oh yes, the mind, the imagination. He was, I mean from day one, trying to embed that in the youth. Like, Hey, the battlefield is the mind. Are you going to internalize this bullshit?Are you going to let them name you?Starlette (32:34):This is the word.Tamice (32:34):Are you going to let them tell you what is real for the people of God? That's That's what I'm saying, man. Hip hop, hip hop's, refusal has been refusal from day one. That's why I trust it.Because in seen it, it came from the bottom of this place. It's from the bottom of your shoe. It tells the truth about all of this. So when I listen to hip hop, I know I'm getting the truth.Starlette (32:57):Yeah. EnemyObjection. What did public enemy say? Can't trust it. Can't trust it. No, no, no, no. You got to play it back. We got to run all that back.Danielle (33:11):I just think how it's so weaponized, the dirt, the bottom of the shoe, all of that stuff. But that's where we actually, that's what got it. Our bodies hitting the road, hitting the pavement, hitting the grass, hitting the dirt. That's how we know we're in reality because we've been forced to in many ways and have a mindset that we are familiar with despite socioeconomic changes. We're familiar with that bottom place.Tamice (33:38):Yeah. I mean, bottom place is where God is at. That's what y'all don't understand. God comes from black, dark dirt, like God is coming from darkness and hiddenness and mystery. You don't love darkness. You don't love GodStarlette (33:56):Talk. Now this bottom place is not to be confused with the sunken place that some of y'all are in. I just want to be clear. I just want to be clear and I'm not coming to get you. Fall was the wrong day. TodayI think it's good though because there's so much intimidation in other communities at times. I'm not saying there's not through the lynchings, ongoing lynchings and violence too and the threats against colleges. But it's good for us to be reminded of our different cultural perspectives and hear people talk with power. Why do you think Martin Luther King and Cesar Chavez wrote letters to each other? They knew something about that and knew something about it. They knew something about it. They knew something about why it's important to maintain the bonds. Why we're different, why we're similar. They knew something about it. So I see it as a benefit and a growth in our reality. That is actually what threatens that, that relationship, that bond, that connection, that speaking life into one another. That's what threatens that kingdom that you're talking about. Yeah.You just can't fake an encounter either.When I was tear, no matter what I've decolonized and divested from and decentered, I cannot deny that experience. I know that God was present. I know that God touched me. So when mother even made sister, even made, my grandmother would call me when I was in college, first person to go to college. In our family, she would say before she asked about classes or anything else, and she really didn't know what to ask. She only had a sixth grade education. But her first question was always you yet holding on?Right. She holding on. And I said, yes ma'am. Yes ma'am. Then she would, because it didn't matter if you couldn't keep the faith. There really wasn't nothing else for her to talk to you about. She was going to get ready to evangelize and get you back because you backslid. But that was her first thing. But what I've learned since then is that I can let go.The amazing thing is that the spirit is guiding me. I didn't let go all together. You got it. You got it. If it's real, if you're real, prove it. Demonstrate it. I'm getting chills now talk to me without me saying anything, touch me. I shouldn't have to do anything. Eugene Peterson says that prayer is answering speech. In fact, the only reason why I'm praying is because you said something to me first. It's not really on me to do anything. Even with the tear. I was already touched. I was already called. The reason why I was on my knees and pleading is because I'd already been compelled. Something had had already touched me. FirstThey called Holy Spirit. The hound of heaven. Damn right was already on my heels. I was already filled before I could even refuse. I was like, I don't want this. I'm going to always be star Jonah, get your people. I prefer fish guts. Throw me overboard. I don't like these people. Certified prophet because I don't want to do it. I never want to do it. I'm not interested at all. I have no too much history. I've had to deal with too much white body supremacy and prejudice and racism to want anything to do with the church. I see it for what? It's I'll never join one. By the way, are we recording? Is it on? I'm never joining a church ever. Until you all desegregate.You desegregate. Then we can talk about your ministry of reconciliation. Until then, you don't have one. Don't talk to me about a community day or a pulpit swap. I don't want to hear it. All Your praise. What did he say? A clinging, stumble, put away from me. Your conferences, all your multiracial. I don't want to hear none of it. Desegregate that part desegregate you, hypocrites, woe unto all of you white supremacists. If nobody ever told you that's not God. It's not of God. So I don't, for me, my reality is so above me, I know that Paul, because when I don't want to say anything, somebody is in my ear. Somebody was talking to me this morning. Somebody was writing a note in my ear. I had to get up. I said, please. I'm like, now I'm not even awake all the way. Stop talking to me. You can't fake that as much as I push against the Holy Spirit. You can't fake that. I don't want to do it. I don't want to say it. I'm of saying it. And yet I get up in the morning and it's like, say this, that post that. Write that. Somebody else is doing that. That's not me.As the mothers say, my flesh is weak. My flesh is not willing at all. I want to, all of y'all can go on. I'll pack this up and move somewhere else. Let them fight it to the death. I'm not going to, this is just my flesh speaking. Forgive me. Okay. This Raceless gospel is a calling friends. It's a calling. It's a calling, which means you coming into it. I'm an itinerant prophet. I'm heavy into the Hebrew scriptures. I come up with every excuse. My throat hurts. I got a speech impediment. The people don't like me. I'm not educated. It don't work. You need to know when people come to you and say, y'all need to get together, God speaking to you, the Pendo is coming. That's not like an invitation. That's kind of like a threat whether you want it or not. You're getting together.Everybody up. There's a meal ready, there's a banquet that is set and the food is getting cold and you are the reason why the drinks are watered down. That's go. You don't hear me calling you. ComeWhat I keep hearing. You have to know that God is speaking to people and saying that there's an invitation coming and you better get right. You better get washed up. Tam me said, you better let somebody pour that water over your hands. You better get washed up and get ready for dinner. I'm calling you. Come on in this house. Come on in this house. And this house is for everybody. Martin Luther King called it the world house. Everybody's coming in and you ain't got to like it doesn't matter. Get somewhere and sit down. That's that old church mother coming out of me and lemme just confess. I didn't even want to be on here this morning. I told God I didn't feel like talking. I told the Lord and you see what happened.Promise you. I'm a child. I'm full of disobedience.I was not in the mood. I said, I don't want to talk to nobody. I'm an introvert. I don't want to deal with none of this. Get somebody else to do it and look at it.Tamice (40:39):Yeah. It's funny because I woke up this morning, I was like, I'm not, I forgot. And then after all of the news today, I was like, I just don't have it in you, but this is, wait a minute. And it was three minutes past the time. Come on. And I was like, oh, well shoot. The house is empty. Nobody's here right now. I was like, well, lemme just log on. So this is definitely, it feels like definitely our calling do feel. I feel that way. I don't have time to bullshitSo I can't get out of it. I can't go to bed. I might as well say something. It won't let me go. I cannot do deceit. I can't do it. I can't sit idly by while people lie on God. I can't do that. I can't do it. It won't let up. And I'm trying to get in my body, get in this grass and get a little space. But I'm telling you, it won't let me go. And I feel it's important, Dee, you can't stop doing what you're doing. That's right. I mean is this thing of it is beyond me. It is living out of me. It's coming through me. And there has to be a reason for this. There's got to be a reason for this. And I don't know what it is because I know my eschatology is different, but I feel like, buddy, we got to manifest this kingdom. We have to manifest it until it pushes all that shit back. Come on. I'm telling you. Till it scurries it away or renders it and null and void, I'm talking. I mean, I want the type of light and glory on my being. That wicked logic disintegrate, wicked people drop dead. I mean that just in the Bible. In the Bible where Hert falls, headlong and worms eat em. Y'all celebrate that. Why can't I think about that? It's in your scriptures or daykin and the thing breaks and the legs of this false God break. I want that. I'm here for that. I'm going after that.Danielle (43:14):You think that this is what the definition of Terry is? That we're all Terry serious. I'm rocking the whole time. I'm serious. Right. That's what I told my kids. I said, in one sense, this is a one person of many that thinks this way. So we can't devote all our conversation in our house to this man. And I said in the other sense, because Starlet was asking me before he got here, how you doing? I said, we got up and I took calls from this person and that person and I told my kids, we're still advocating and doing what we can for the neighbors that need papers. And so we're going to continue doing that. That is the right thing to do. No matter what anybody else is doing in the world, we can do this.Tamice (43:56):Yeah, that's a good call. I mean, I'm headed to, I ain't going to say where I'm going no more, but I'm headed somewhere and going to be with people who are doing some innovation, right. Thinking how do we build a different world? How do our skillsets and passions coalesce and become something other than this? So I'm excited about that. And it's like that fire, it doesn't just drive me to want to rebuke. It does drive me to want to rebuild and rethink how we do everything. And I'm willing, I mean, I know that I don't know about y'all, but I feel like this, I'm getting out of dodge, but also I'm seeking the piece of the city. I feel both. I feel like I'm not holding hands with ridiculousness and I'm not moving in foolishness. But also I'm finna seek the piece of the city. My G I'm not running from delusion. Why would I? I'm in the truth. So I don't know how that maps onto a practical life, but we're finna figure it out. Out in it. I mean, the response of leadership to what has happened is a very clear sign where we are in terms of fascism. That's a very clear sign.What else y'all are looking for To tell you what it is.Danielle (45:36):But also we're the leaders. We are, we're the leaders. They're a leader of something, but they're not the leader of us. We're the leaders. We're the leaders. So no matter what they say, no matter what hate they spew, I really love Cesar Chavez. He's like, I still go out and feed the farm worker and I don't make them get on the boycott line because if they're pushed under the dirt, then they can't see hope. So people that have more economic power, a little more privilege than the other guy, we're the leaders. We're the ones that keep showing up in love. And love is a dangerous thing for these folks. They can't understand it. They can't grasp it. It is violent for them to feel love. Bodies actually reject it. And the more we show up, you're innovating. You're speaking Starla, you're preaching. We're the leaders. They're leaders of something. They're not leaders of us. We're leaders of freedom.Tamice (46:31):Come on now. D, we're leaders of give us thisStarlette (46:34):Bomb. We're leaders of compassion. You coming in here with the Holy Ghosts, acting like one of them church mothers. We were in the room together. She put our hand on us. YouDanielle (46:43):We're the ones that can remember Trey. We're the ones that can call for justice. We don't need them to do it. They've never done it. Right. Anyway. They have never showed up for a Mexican kid. They've never showed up for a black kid. They've never done it. Right. Anyway, we're the ones that can do it now. We have access to technology. We have access to our neighbors. We can bring a meal to a friend. We can give dollars to someone that needs gas. We're the the one doing it. We're the one that doing itTamice (47:11):Fill usDanielle (47:12):Up. They cannot take away our love.Starlette (47:15):Receive the benediction.Danielle: Yeah. They can't take it away. I'm telling you, if I saw someone shooting someone I hate, I would try to save that person. I don't own guns. I don't believe in guns, period. My family, that's my personal family's belief.And I would do that. I've thought about it many times. I thought would I do it? And I think I would because I actually believe that. I believe that people should not be shot dead. I believe that for the white kid. I believe that for the Mexican kid. I believe that for the black kid, we're the people that can show up. They're not going to come out here. They're inviting us to different kind of war. We're not in that war. That's right. We have love on our side and you cannot defeat love, kill love. You can'tTamice (48:04):Kill love and you can't kill life. That's the only reason somebody would ask you to be nonviolent. That's the only way somebody would've the audacity to ask that of you. Especially if you're oppressed. If the true is truth is that you can't kill love or life, damn man. It's hard out here for a pimp.Starlette (48:38):Really. Really? Yeah. Because what I really want to say isTamice (49:27):I can't. Your testimony a lie. No. Your testimony. That would be a lie. And like I said, truth telling is important. But there are days where I could be that I could go there, but I witnessed what happened that day. I watched the video. It's just not normal to watch that happen to anybody. And I don't care who you are. And the fact that we're there is just objectively just wow. And the fact that all of the spin and do y'all not realize what just happened? Just as a actual event. Right. What? You know, I'm saying how has this turned into diatribes? Right? We need reform. I, whichDanielle (50:29):Which, okay, so I have to cut us off. I have a client coming, but I want to hear from you, given all the nuance and complexity, how are you going to take care of your body this week or even just today? It doesn't have to be genius. Just one or two things you're going to do. Oh, I'm going toTamice (50:51):Take a nap. Yeah, you taking a nap? Y'all be so proud of me. I literally just said no to five things. I was like, I'm not coming to this. I'm not doing that. I won't be at this. I'm grieving. I'm go sit in the grass. Yeah, that's what I'm doing today. And I have stuff coming up. I'm like, Nope, I'm not available.Starlette (51:14):What about you Danielle? What are you going to do?Danielle (51:16):I'm going to eat scrambled eggs with no salt. I love that. I've grown my liver back so I have to have no salt. But I do love scrambled eggs. Scrambled eggs. That's the truth. Four. Four scrambled eggs.Starlette (51:31):And we thank you for your truth. BIO:The Reverend Dr. Starlette Thomas is a poet, practical theologian, and itinerant prophet for a coming undivided “kin-dom.” She is the director of The Raceless Gospel Initiative, named for her work and witness and an associate editor at Good Faith Media. Starlette regularly writes on the sociopolitical construct of race and its longstanding membership in the North American church. Her writings have been featured in Sojourners, Red Letter Christians, Free Black Thought, Word & Way, Plough, Baptist News Global and Nurturing Faith Journal among others. She is a frequent guest on podcasts and has her own. The Raceless Gospel podcast takes her listeners to a virtual church service where she and her guests tackle that taboo trinity— race, religion, and politics. Starlette is also an activist who bears witness against police brutality and most recently the cultural erasure of the Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington, D.C. It was erected in memory of the 2020 protests that brought the world together through this shared declaration of somebodiness after the gruesome murder of George Perry Floyd, Jr. Her act of resistance caught the attention of the Associated Press. An image of her reclaiming the rubble went viral and in May, she was featured in a CNN article.Starlette has spoken before the World Council of Churches North America and the United Methodist Church's Council of Bishops on the color- coded caste system of race and its abolition. She has also authored and presented papers to the members of the Baptist World Alliance in Zurich, Switzerland and Nassau, Bahamas to this end. She has cast a vision for the future of religion at the National Museum of African American History and Culture's “Forward Conference: Religions Envisioning Change.” Her paper was titled “Press Forward: A Raceless Gospel for Ex- Colored People Who Have Lost Faith in White Supremacy.” She has lectured at The Queen's Foundation in Birmingham, U.K. on a baptismal pedagogy for antiracist theological education, leadership and ministries. Starlette's research interests have been supported by the Louisville Institute and the Lilly Foundation. Examining the work of the Reverend Dr. Clarence Jordan, whose farm turned “demonstration plot” in Americus, Georgia refused to agree to the social arrangements of segregation because of his Christian convictions, Starlette now takes this dirt to the church. Her thesis is titled, “Afraid of Koinonia: How life on this farm reveals the fear of Christian community.” A full circle moment, she was recently invited to write the introduction to Jordan's newest collection of writings, The Inconvenient Gospel: A Southern Prophet Tackles War, Wealth, Race and Religion.Starlette is a member of the Christian Community Development Association, the Peace & Justice Studies Association, and the Koinonia Advisory Council. A womanist in ministry, she has served as a pastor as well as a denominational leader. An unrepentant academician and bibliophile, Starlette holds degrees from Buffalo State College, Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School and Wesley Theological Seminary. Last year, she was awarded an honorary doctorate in Sacred Theology for her work and witness as a public theologian from Wayland Baptist Theological Seminary. She is the author of "Take Me to the Water": The Raceless Gospel as Baptismal Pedagogy for a Desegregated Church and a contributing author of the book Faith Forward: A Dialogue on Children, Youth & a New Kind of Christianity. Dr. Tamice Spencer - HelmsGod is not a weapon.  Authenticity is not a phase.Meet  Tamice Spencer-Helms (they/she). Tamice is a nonprofit leader, scholar-practitioner, pastor, and theoactivist based in Richmond, Virginia. For decades, Tamice has been guided by a singular purpose: to confront and heal what they call “diseased imagination”—the spiritual and social dis-ease that stifles agency, creativity, and collective flourishing. As a pastor for spiritual fugitives,  Tamice grounds their work at the intersection of social transformation, soulful leadership, womanist and queer liberation theologies, and cultural critique.A recognized voice in theoactivism, Tamice's work bridges the intellectual and the embodied, infusing rigorous scholarship with lived experience and spiritual practice. They hold two master's degrees (theology and leadership) and a doctorate in Social Transformation. Their frameworks, such as R.E.S.T. Mixtape and Soulful Leadership, which are research and evidence-based interventions that invite others into courageous truth-telling, radical belonging, and the kind of liberating leadership our times demand.​Whether facilitating retreats, speaking from the stage, consulting for organizations, or curating digital sanctuaries, Tamice's presence is both refuge and revolution. Their commitment is to help individuals and communities heal, reimagine, and build spaces where every person is seen, known, and liberated—where diseased imagination gives way to new possibilities. Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

The Arise Podcast – Edited TranscriptSpeaker 1 (00:29):Welcome to the Rise Podcast. As part of this process, we're going to talk about what reality is—how to find it, and how to ground yourself in it. I'll have some regular co-hosts with me, as I mentioned earlier, and we'll continue to explore faith, gender, race, sex, the church—all in the context of discovering reality.Today is September 10, 2025. As I pushed to get this episode out, plans shifted and things got canceled. I was busy with the kids, checking the news, scrolling Instagram, running errands, picking up sandwiches—just an ordinary day. Then I saw the headline: Charlie Kirk had been shot.Interestingly, Charlie Kirk and I disagree on almost everything, but I've occasionally listened to his podcast. I also listen to the Midas Touch podcast and others across the spectrum to understand what people are thinking and believing.(01:47)I ask myself: what reality am I living in, and whose voices am I letting in? When I have the capacity, I listen to people like Charlie Kirk, sometimes tune in to Fox News, check X/Twitter, or look at Truth Social—just to gauge different perspectives.I live on Squamish land—land of cedar and clear salt water—here in Poulsbo, Washington. Kitsap County is an interesting rural mix. We're near Seattle, often labeled “ultra-liberal,” but that doesn't exempt us from racism, elitism, or entrenched power structures. And our rural neighbors may identify as fiscally or socially conservative. You might meet someone who voted very differently from you—someone who will happily bring you cookies, or someone who might actually despise you.(02:48)This mix, I think, is closer to reality than living in silos. We may choose echo chambers for news, but we still rub shoulders at coffee shops, restaurants, gyms, and schools with people who think differently.I keep asking: how do we find a shared space to even talk? How do we locate common reality?Back in 2020, when George Floyd was murdered, I saw deep fractures emerge. I was just starting therapy groups on race and whiteness. Our diverse group gathered to talk about racism at a time when the country seemed ready for those conversations.(04:54)But quickly I noticed what I call splitting—fracturing when someone said something others couldn't accept or even register in their bodies. It sometimes caused silence or confusion, and often led to sharp, even violent words meant to wound. And often the person speaking didn't realize the harm.This fascinated me as a therapist. From a psychological perspective, I began to wonder: which part of ourselves shows up in everyday interactions? At a store, maybe just a polite hello. With a friend, maybe a brief check-in that still doesn't touch the day's deeper feelings.(07:07)Sometimes those layers of relationship reveal unspoken emotions—feelings inside that remain hidden. Healthy boundaries are normal, but there's no guarantee that with those we love we suddenly share every vulnerable part of ourselves.Now add politics, faith, love, gender, culture: more layers. Many of these parts trace back to childhood—traumas, arguments, experiences at school or with caregivers.(08:15)So when I see splitting—what some call polarization, black-and-white or binary thinking, or even “boundaries as weapons”—I see people wrestling with what it means to be a neighbor and to engage someone who thinks radically differently.I feel the temptation myself to label everything all good or all bad. Children need that kind of distinction to learn what's safe and unsafe, but adults must grow beyond it. Two things can be true at the same time: you hurt me, and I still love you and will show up. Yet our world increasingly tells us that can't be true.(11:05)This pressure to split is intense—internally, from media, from social circles, from family. Sometimes I want to run away into the woods, start a farm, keep my kids home, just stay safe. Today, after news of a school shooting and Charlie Kirk's murder, that desire feels even stronger.There are days I simply cannot engage with people who think differently. Other days, I have more capacity.So where is reality? For me, it's grounding in faith—literally planting my feet on the earth, hugging a tree, touching grass.(13:30)I ask: who is God? Who is Jesus? And who have I been told God and Jesus are? I grew up in a rigid evangelical structure—shaped by purity culture and fear of punishment. I remember hearing, “If God calls you and you don't act, He'll move on and you'll be left behind.” Even now, at 47, that idea haunts me.When I meet people from that tradition, I feel the urge to split—making my perspective all right and theirs all wrong. I have to remind myself of their humanity and of God's love for them.Earlier this year, I chose to resist those splits. I called people where relationships felt scratchy or unresolved, inviting conversation. Not everyone responded, but the practice helped loosen old binds.(16:55)I also keep listening to multiple viewpoints. I never “followed” Charlie Kirk, but I'd check his posts and sometimes feel genuine tenderness when he shared about his family. That's part of loving your enemies—remembering their humanity, even when you feel anger or rage.I grew up surrounded by conservative media. I even remember the early days of Fox News. As a teen reading Time magazine, I once told my parents that Michael Dukakis's policies aligned more with my faith than his opponent's. Over time I drifted toward trickle-down economics, but that early instinct still stands out.(21:22)All of us are socialized into certain beliefs. I went from conservative evangelical spaces to a conservative liberal-arts college. People warned I might “lose my faith,” yet those history classes deepened it. Today many claim that consuming certain media will “distort your reality.” Political violence is rising. I listen to both progressive and conservative podcasts to understand different lives. Yet when I cite something I've heard, I'm often told it's “AI-generated” or “fake,” even when it's a direct quote. Liberals do this too, around issues like Palestine, policing, or healthcare.(24:47)It's painful to be around people who think differently. The question is: how do we converse without devolving into hate or shouting?Today is September 11. Between Charlie Kirk's assassination, yesterday's school shooting, and attempted political killings, it's clear our nation is split into competing realities that shape everything—from how we see safety to how we practice faith and empathy.This podcast is about examining those realities and how we process them.(26:44)Sometimes we retreat inward to cope with trauma—what psychology might call dissociation or a psychic retreat. I understand the instinct to step back for safety.Maybe these divisions always existed, and I just see them more clearly now while raising my children. That responsibility feels heavy.(29:12)I often turn to elders and their words—Cesar Chavez, Dolores Huerta, Martin Luther King Jr.'s “Letter from Birmingham Jail.” They remind me others have endured violence and hatred and still held onto hope and faith.I fight for that same hope now.(30:04)To ground ourselves we can:- Connect with the earth: literally touch the ground, trees, water.- Stay in community: share meals, exchange help, build fences together.- Nourish faith: draw on spiritual wisdom.- Cherish family: use loved ones as emotional barometers.- Engage work and service: notice how they shape and sustain us.- Face issues of race and justice: ask if we contribute to harm or to healing.Your grounding pillars may differ, but these guide me.(32:40)I invite you to this journey. You may agree or disagree—that's okay. We need space to coexist when it feels like only one side can survive.Violence won't change hearts. Bullets cannot replace ballots. Money cannot buy joy or transformation. Only sustained dialogue and care can.(34:05)I'll share some quotes from Dolores Huerta and Cesar Chavez in the show notes. Please stay curious and seek the mental-health support you need. Don't be alone in your grief or fear. If you feel triggered or overwhelmed, reach out—to a therapist, pastor, trusted friend, or crisis helpline.A special guest and new co-host will join me next week. I look forward to continuing the conversation.   Crisis Resources:Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResource Contact Info What They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call Line Phone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/ 24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach Team Emergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/ Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS) Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/ Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now” Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx 24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the Peninsulas Phone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-Resources Local crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap County Website: https://namikitsap.org/ Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResource Contact Info What They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988) Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/ Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line 1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resources Help for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line 877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/ Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis Lifeline Dial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resources Culturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.  Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Veteran LA private investigator Ken Childs joins us for a jaw-dropping, celeb-adjacent case file. A manager quietly hires Ken to verify whether a very famous man's girlfriend is stepping out, and we ride along as he threads canyon roads, outsmarts “Private Drive” signs, and navigates a neighborhood of $90M estates and movie-set security to capture the evidence. Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode is sponsored by Wayfair. Refresh your home for less. Shop back-to-routine deals by visiting Wayfair.com.This episode is sponsored by Miracle Made. Get silver-infused, bacteria-fighting, temperature-regulating sheets and towels at TryMiracle.com/TDD and use code TDD to save over 40% and claim a FREE 3-piece towel set.This episode is sponsored by Suvie. Get the smart countertop kitchen robot that refrigerates, cooks, and meal-preps dinner while you're away. Go to Suvie.com/DatingDetectives to start your 100-day risk-free trial and get 16 FREE meals with your order.Take control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. ***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode, I chat with Paul Hammond about effective testing strategies, the joy of working with well-designed TDD systems, and how synchronous collaboration improves code quality. We examine what true agility means and how technical excellence enables fearless releases and sustainable development.Feedback-Driven DevelopmentPaul Hammond on LinkedInNonsense Monthly

Christophe a vécu l'enfer du développeur dans un legacy de 30 ans en C. Puis il a découvert le TDD... et sa vie a basculé.Ce que vous allez découvrir dans cet épisode :✅ Comment Christophe a divisé par 3 ses délais de développement (6 mois → 2 mois)✅ Pourquoi ses utilisateurs lui disent maintenant : "On n'a jamais vu une vélocité pareille"✅ Les vraies raisons pour lesquelles les équipes résistent au changement✅ Sa stratégie pour convaincre (ou pas) ses collègues récalcitrantsHébergé par Ausha. Visitez ausha.co/politique-de-confidentialite pour plus d'informations.

Whitney didn't go looking for love. All she wanted was peace, but what she found was a slow-burn masterclass in love-bombing, disappearing acts, and financial manipulation that preyed on old wounds and present-day loneliness. As the red flags pile up (and the cash and car keys vanish), Whitney's femmetuition starts connecting dots that lead to a jaw-dropping, headline-level reveal about who he really is. Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Ava. Rebuild your credit fast with no interest, no credit check, with AVA. Download the AVA app and use promo code DATING.This episode is sponsored by Miracle Made. Get silver-infused, bacteria-fighting, temperature-regulating sheets and towels at TryMiracle.com/TDD and use code TDD to save over 40% and claim a FREE 3-piece towel set.This episode is sponsored by ZocDoc. Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to Zocdoc.com/tdd find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today.This episode is sponsored by Wayfair. Refresh your home for less. Shop back-to-routine deals by visiting Wayfair.com.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Layla returns, and she's not alone. As our Porsche & Penthouse Scam saga, Layla connects with Allison, another target of the same smooth-talking Brit. Together they compare receipts, unravel overlapping lies and money games, and take the fight from group chats to law enforcement. Equal parts scam autopsy and friendship origin story, this episode proves that when women compare notes, Dogfish don't swim for long. (Content Warning: financial abuse/manipulation.)Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode is sponsored by Suvie. Get the smart countertop kitchen robot that refrigerates, cooks, and meal-preps dinner while you're away. Go to Suvie.com/DatingDetectives to start your 100-day risk-free trial and get 16 FREE meals with your order.Take control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. Get control of your finances with Monarch Money. Use code DATING at MonarchMoney.com in your browser (not app) for half off your first year!***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this sequel/prequel to April's episode titled Dressed to Deceive: The Push and Penthouse Scam, Mackenzie and Hanna pick up Allison's saga where it left off, and introduce Layla, another woman targeted by the same charming British real-estate developer. Her story, and how she found her way to Allison and our show, is a wild ride unlike anything we've heard on The Dating Detectives before! Tune in next week for the final chapter of this epic Dogfish saga. Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode is sponsored by Miracle Made. Get silver-infused, bacteria-fighting, temperature-regulating sheets and towels at TryMiracle.com/TDD and use code TDD to save over 40% and claim a FREE 3-piece towel set.Make this spring your most delicious yet with Green Chef. Head to greenchef.com/50datingdetectives and use code 50datingdetectives to get 50% off your first month, then 20% off for two months with free shipping.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Paired. Head to PAIRED.COM/DATINGDETECTIVES to get a 7-day free trial and 25% off if you sign up for a subscription.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this high-energy episode, returning guests Gilbert Sanchez and Jake Hildreth join Andrew for a deep dive into: Module templating with PSStucco Building for accessibility in PowerShell Creating open source GitHub orgs like PSInclusive How PowerShell can lead to learning modern dev workflows like GitHub Actions and CI/CD What begins with a conversation about a live demo gone hilariously sideways turns into an insightful exploration of how PowerShell acts as a launchpad into bigger ecosystems like GitHub, YAML, JSON, and continuous integration pipelines.Bios &   Bios: Gilbert Sanchez is a Staff Software Development Engineer at Tesla, specifically working on PowerShell. Formerly known as "Señor Systems Engineer" at Meta. A loud advocate for DEI, DevEx, DevOps, and TDD.   Jake Hildreth is a Principal Security Consultant at Semperis, Microsoft MVP, and longtime builder of tools that make identity security suck a little less. With nearly 25 years in IT (and the battle scars to prove it), he specializes in helping orgs secure Active Directory and survive the baroque disaster that is Active Directory Certificate Services. He's the creator of Locksmith, BlueTuxedo, and PowerPUG!, open-source tools built to make life easier for overworked identity admins. When he's not untangling Kerberos or wrangling DNS, he's usually hanging out with his favorite people and most grounding reality check: his wife and daughter.   Links https://gilbertsanchez.com/posts/stucco-create-powershell-module/ https://jakehildreth.github.io/blog/2025/07/02/PowerShell-Module-Scaffolding-with-PSStucco.html https://github.com/PSInclusive https://jakehildreth.com/ https://andrewpla.tech/links https://discord.gg/pdq https://pdq.com/podcast https://youtu.be/w-z2-0ii96Y  

Asgaut Mjølne Söderbom and Ola Hast, two developers with Sparebank1 speak about their journey towards continuous deployment and pair programming. During the conversation, they share how they use the "waste clock" to identify areas of improvement or how TDD helps them deliver high-quality code. Read a transcript of this interview: https://bit.ly/4lNvYgI Subscribe to the Software Architects' Newsletter for your monthly guide to the essential news and experience from industry peers on emerging patterns and technologies: https://www.infoq.com/software-architects-newsletter Upcoming Events: InfoQ Dev Summit Munich (October 15-16, 2025) Essential insights on critical software development priorities. https://devsummit.infoq.com/conference/munich2025 QCon San Francisco 2025 (November 17-21, 2025) Get practical inspiration and best practices on emerging software trends directly from senior software developers at early adopter companies. https://qconsf.com/ QCon AI New York 2025 (December 16-17, 2025) https://ai.qconferences.com/ QCon London 2026 (March 16-19, 2026) https://qconlondon.com/ The InfoQ Podcasts: Weekly inspiration to drive innovation and build great teams from senior software leaders. Listen to all our podcasts and read interview transcripts: - The InfoQ Podcast https://www.infoq.com/podcasts/ - Engineering Culture Podcast by InfoQ https://www.infoq.com/podcasts/#engineering_culture - Generally AI: https://www.infoq.com/generally-ai-podcast/ Follow InfoQ: - Mastodon: https://techhub.social/@infoq - X: https://x.com/InfoQ?from=@ - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/infoq/ - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/InfoQdotcom# - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/infoqdotcom/?hl=en - Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/infoq - Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/infoq.com Write for InfoQ: Learn and share the changes and innovations in professional software development. - Join a community of experts. - Increase your visibility. - Grow your career. https://www.infoq.com/write-for-infoq

How do you build a high-performing engineering team in the AI era? And will AI make fundamental engineering skills obsolete?In this episode, Mohan Krishnan, Head of Engineering at Grab, shares lessons from leading multiple transformational engineering teams. Drawing from his experience at Grab, Bukalapak, BBM Emtek, and Pivotal Labs, Mohan explains why core engineering fundamentals still matter, even in the age of AI, and will become even more valuable than ever. He discusses building disciplined, high-performing engineering teams and the importance of hands-on leadership. We also explore the unique challenges and vast potential of the tech landscape in Southeast Asia.Key topics discussed:Why foundational skills like TDD and system design are becoming more critical in the age of generative AIHow to effectively use AI as a pair programmer for upskilling and idea generation, while avoiding the pitfalls of “vibe coding”Mohan's “sports team” analogy for building successful engineering teams with discipline, a mix of seniority, and a culture of deep learningThe importance of hands-on technical leadership, and why even CTOs should “dive deep” to set the right engineering barThe state of engineering talent in Southeast Asia and what's needed to bridge the gap in deep tech and AI developmentActionable career advice for junior and mid-career professionals navigating the AI-infused software industryTimestamps:(00:00:00) Trailer & Intro(00:02:08) Career Turning Points(00:06:03) Things We Should Learn in the AI Era(00:09:53) AI as a Pair Programmer(00:13:58) The Danger of Outsourcing Our Thinking to AI(00:17:29) The Dopamine Hit of Using AI(00:20:36) Building a Successful Transformational Engineering Team(00:25:33) The Discipline Rigor in An Engineering Team(00:29:14) Understanding & Delivering Outcomes for the Business(00:32:21) Having a Tough Approach as an Engineering Leader(00:39:07) Going Back as an IC at Google(00:45:40) The Importance of Being Hands-On with Recent Technologies for Leaders(00:52:40) Hands-on vs Micromanagement(00:55:11) Engineering Talents in Southeast Asia(00:58:06) Building Tech Talents in Southeast Asia(01:01:17) Bridging the AI Gap in Southeast Asia(01:04:03) Should We Still Pursue a Tech Career in the AI Era?(01:07:24) 2 Tech Lead Wisdom_____Mohan Krishnan's BioMohan Krishnan, based in Singapore, is currently a Head of Engineering at Grab. Mohan Krishnan brings experience from previous roles at Google, Bukalapak, BBM and Pt. Kreatif Media Karya. Mohan Krishnan holds a 1998 - 2002 Bachelor of Engineering in Multimedia, Electronics at Multimedia University. With a robust skill set that includes Ruby on Rails, Multithreading, Web Services, HTML, Services and more.Follow Mohan:LinkedIn – linkedin.com/in/mohangkLike this episode?Show notes & transcript: techleadjournal.dev/episodes/228.Follow @techleadjournal on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.Buy me a coffee or become a patron.

In this jaw-dropping episode of The Dating Detectives, we meet Jade, a 30-year-old single mom whose world was upended when her wife began an affair with someone no one ever expects. What starts as a postpartum support system turns into a shocking betrayal involving romantic manipulation, medical ethics violations, and a devastating unraveling of Jade's family. As Jade bravely shares her story, we explore the power dynamics between patients and doctors, the red flags of love bombing, and how postpartum vulnerability can be exploited. This episode is a raw, emotional, and ultimately empowering look at what happens when the people you rely on most turn out to be the ones you need to heal from.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode is sponsored by Suvie. Get the smart countertop kitchen robot that refrigerates, cooks, and meal-preps dinner while you're away. Go to Suvie.com/DatingDetectives to start your 100-day risk-free trial and get 16 FREE meals with your order.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Ava. Rebuild your credit fast with no interest, no credit check, with AVA. Download the AVA app and use promo code DATING.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/tdd today to get 10% off your first month.Take control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. ***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode of Building Better Developers, Rob Broadhead and Michael Meloche revisit their earlier topic from “User Stories Unveiled – A Developer's Guide to Capturing the Full Narrative.” They add structure and talking points—some suggested by ChatGPT—but the real focus remains on how to effectively use user stories in software development. At their core, user stories help teams communicate purpose and intent. They turn generic requirements into actionable, testable narratives that align with real-world needs. The Power of Story: A Proven Format for Software Success User stories follow a simple but powerful structure: As a [user], I want [feature], so that [benefit]. This format helps everyone—from developers to stakeholders—understand what's needed and why. For instance: As a customer, I want to check my account balance so I can make smart spending decisions. Even that brief statement can imply multiple technical requirements. Rob explains how this format helps uncover both functional and non-functional needs—making user stories in software development a critical tool for better results. Turning User Stories Into Requirements That Work Michael takes the discussion deeper by showing how user stories translate into system requirements. Each story triggers important “what if” scenarios: What if there's no balance data? How should errors be handled? What's the next logical user action? These questions drive refinement. The more complete the story, the fewer assumptions developers have to make. When applied well, user stories in software development help identify edge cases and clarify expectations early. Using User Stories in Software Development to Drive Testing Another benefit of user stories? They support test-driven development (TDD). Michael points out that frameworks like Cucumber allow you to write test cases in plain, user-focused language. These tests validate features against the original intent of the story. User stories help developers think from the user's perspective. Instead of focusing on implementation first, they focus on proof. What needs to work—and how do we confirm that it does? What Makes a Great User Story in Software Development? Rob introduces the INVEST model, a proven framework for evaluating user stories: Independent Negotiable Valuable Estimable Small Testable These qualities ensure that stories are manageable, relevant, and easy to test. The team emphasizes avoiding overly technical stories that don't reflect user value. The goal is always to create stories that can guide discussion, development, and testing without confusion. Pitfalls to Avoid When Writing User Stories One major mistake? Saying “Just tell me what to build.” Rob warns this is a dangerous mindset that reduces developers to order-takers. Instead, good developers ask why, challenge assumptions, and uncover the real goals behind each feature. Michael notes that in smaller teams, developers often take on the role of product owner or analyst. That means refining and sometimes even writing the user stories themselves. In those cases, clarity and curiosity become essential to avoid rework or misalignment. Prioritizing and Revisiting User Stories in Software Development Not every story belongs in version 1.0. The hosts advise teams to revisit their backlog and separate must-haves from nice-to-haves. Many projects waste time building features that never get used—often because they weren't properly vetted. Use user stories to define your MVP (Minimum Viable Product). Anything outside of that can go into a backlog for future releases. This helps teams stay focused and deliver real value quickly. Final Thoughts: Better Stories, Better Software This episode reinforces a simple truth: user stories in software development are a gateway to better communication, clearer requirements, and stronger software outcomes. When teams understand the who, what, and why of every feature, they build smarter solutions faster. Callout: Don't Code Without a Story Before you build anything, ask: Who is this for? What do they want? Why does it matter? Let purpose drive your process—and let the user lead the story. Stay Connected: Join the Developreneur Community We invite you to join our community and share your coding journey with us. Whether you're a seasoned developer or just starting, there's always room to learn and grow together. Contact us at info@develpreneur.com with your questions, feedback, or suggestions for future episodes. Together, let's continue exploring the exciting world of software development. Additional Resources How to write effective user stories in agile development? The Importance of Properly Defining Requirements Changing Requirements – Welcome Them For Competitive Advantage Creating Your Product Requirements Creating Use Cases and Gathering Requirements The Developer Journey Videos – With Bonus Content Building Better Developers With AI Podcast Videos – With Bonus Content

In this episode of Dating Detectives, Mackenzie and Hanna are joined by Mackenzie's long-time friend and fellow private investigator, Brandy, for a jaw-dropping undercover story. What begins as a routine insurance surveillance case quickly unravels into something far messier, as Brandy tails a seemingly average family man who, while his wife is out of town, juggles not one, not two, but three different women, sometimes even on the same day.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Simply Pop. Find your favorite new prebiotic soda at CokeURL.com/SimplyPop.This episode is sponsored by Miracle Made. Get silver-infused, bacteria-fighting, temperature-regulating sheets and towels at TryMiracle.com/TDD and use code TDD to save over 40% and claim a FREE 3-piece towel set.This episode is sponsored by Suvie. Get the smart countertop kitchen robot that refrigerates, cooks, and meal-preps dinner while you're away. Go to Suvie.com/DatingDetectives to start your 100-day risk-free trial and get 16 FREE meals with your order.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

If you've ever wondered how to make test-driven development more than a coding technique, this episode is for you. Ashok Sivanand and producer Doug Branson answer listener and Reddit-sourced questions about building better product teams—covering everything from mindset shifts to hard truths about performance reviews and strategic alignment. Ashok connects TDD to the principles of Essentialism by Greg McKeown, revealing how teams can define success before they begin and cut through the noise of Slack and OKRs. Hear practical advice for first-time founders struggling to articulate value without a 20-minute demo, plus techniques to scale beyond early adopter customers using real-world interviews and Jobs to Be Done. Later, they explore how to recover from a tough performance review, especially in remote roles, and why communication—not effort—is often the missing ingredient. The episode wraps with a conversation about the dangers of leadership ambiguity when a company isn't sure whether it's selling a service or a product. ASK YOUR QUESTION: convergence.fm/contact Unlock the full potential of your product team with Integral's player coaches, experts in lean, human-centered design. Visit integral.io/convergence for a free Product Success Lab workshop to gain clarity and confidence in tackling any product design or engineering challenge. Episodes referenced in this episode... From Code to Culture: How Shopify Thrives Under Farhan Thawar's Thought Leadership - https://youtu.be/tKEKfjACv3k The POWER of Small Data With High Signal - A Jobs To Be Done masterclass with Andrew Glaser - https://youtu.be/0X1RKZWJgOU Building Customer-Centric Teams: Josh Seiden on OKRs and Agile - https://youtu.be/0dPoDNCQmyc Best of 2024 - Derisking and Evolving on your OKR (Objectives and Key Results) Implementation - https://youtu.be/6HcRd6qUq1A Inside the episode... TDD as a mindset beyond code, inspired by Essentialism How to recover from a tough performance review in a remote org Tips for first-time founders explaining product value without demos Jobs to Be Done and using customer language in sales Diagnosing product vs service strategy confusion in your org Mentioned in this episode... Essentialism by Greg McKeown The Mom Test by Rob Fitzpatrick Jobs to Be Done framework Calendly Integral Unlock the full potential of your product team with Integral's player coaches, experts in lean, human-centered design. Visit integral.io/convergence for a free Product Success Lab workshop to gain clarity and confidence in tackling any product design or engineering challenge. Subscribe to the Convergence podcast wherever you get podcasts including video episodes to get updated on the other crucial conversations that we'll post on YouTube at youtube.com/@convergencefmpodcast Learn something? Give us a 5 star review and like the podcast on YouTube. It's how we grow.   Follow the Pod Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/convergence-podcast/ X: https://twitter.com/podconvergence Instagram: @podconvergence

This interview was recorded for GOTO Unscripted.https://gotopia.techRead the full transcription of this interview hereNat Pryce - Co-Author of "Growing Object­-Oriented Software Guided by Tests" & "Java to Kotlin"Duncan McGregor - Co-Author of "Java to Kotlin" & Independent ConsultantRESOURCESNathttps://mastodon.social/@natprycehttps://github.com/nprycehttps://x.com/natprycehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/natprycehttp://www.natpryce.comDuncanhttps://twitter.com/duncanmcghttps://www.linkedin.com/in/duncan-mcgregor-a3038b6https://github.com/dmcghttp://www.oneeyedmen.comhttps://java-to-kotlin.devLinkshttps://www.meetup.com/extreme-tuesday-club-xtchttps://guava.dev/releases/21.0/api/docs/com/google/common/base/Function.htmlDESCRIPTIONThis conversation between Duncan McGregor and Nat Pryce explores the legacy of Nat's co-authored book "Growing Object-Oriented Software, Guided by Tests" (GOOS) and how software development practices have evolved in the past 15 years.They discuss the origins of test-driven development (TDD) within London's Extreme Tuesday Club, the shift from object-oriented to functional programming paradigms, and how changing technology has influenced development approaches.Key topics include outside-in vs bottom-up testing strategies, mock objects, the rise of microservices, and whether modern development practices have actually improved productivity.The conversation provides valuable historicaDigital Disruption with Geoff Nielson Discover how technology is reshaping our lives and livelihoods.Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify Inspiring Tech Leaders - The Technology PodcastInterviews with Tech Leaders and insights on the latest emerging technology trends.Listen on: Apple Podcasts SpotifyBlueskyTwitterInstagramLinkedInFacebookCHANNEL MEMBERSHIP BONUSJoin this channel to get early access to videos & other perks:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_tLP3AiwYKwdUHpltJPuA/joinLooking for a unique learning experience?Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket: gotopia.techSUBSCRIBE TO OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL - new videos posted daily!

In this gripping two-part episode, Mackenzie and Hanna welcome siblings Rob and Laura, who reveal how their kind-hearted father was quietly robbed blind by their stepmother for nearly three decades. From phony bank statements and forged checks to embezzled retirement payouts and a sham foreclosure's, you'll hear the shocking twists and red flags that went unnoticed for 27 years. As Rob and Laura piece together rumors of embezzlement, payday-loan scams, and daily ATM withdrawals you'll be left wondering how something so outrageous could stay hidden in plain sight. If you or someone you love has ever weathered financial betrayal, this story will resonate on a deeply personal level. Buckle up for part one of this jaw-dropping family saga.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkStop putting off those doctors appointments and go to Zocdoc.com/tdd find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today.Make this spring your most delicious yet with Green Chef. Head to greenchef.com/50datingdetectives and use code 50datingdetectives to get 50% off your first month, then 20% off for two months with free shipping.Take control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. Get control of your finances with Monarch Money. Use code DATING at MonarchMoney.com in your browser (not app) for half off your first year! ***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this eye-opening episode of the Mob Mentality Show, we sit down with software engineer and consultant William Bernting to explore a radical approach to hiring, teamwork, and technical leadership. William walks us through his real-world experience with mob programming interviews—a collaborative hiring process where candidates join the team in an ensemble coding session, not a contrived solo coder test. He shares the surprising benefits of evaluating candidates through communication, alignment, and problem-solving over individual technical trivia. We dive into: Why mob programming is a great way to assess team fit and long-term success How to structure collaborative interviews that reduce anxiety and reveal true strengths What happens when you ditch traditional project-led methods and focus on predictability through steady flow How the Cynefin framework helps make sense of complex team dynamics and guides leadership decisions What freelance engineering looks like when trust, autonomy, and collaboration lead the way William also discusses how he's made his work more stable and sustainable—for both clients and team members—without relying on estimates or rigid plans. Instead, he uses continuous delivery, test-driven development (TDD), and mobbing to achieve results that are both reliable and adaptable. Whether you're a hiring manager rethinking your interview process, an engineer looking to join better teams, or a leader trying to move beyond chaotic delivery cycles, this conversation offers practical takeaways and fresh perspective.

In this gripping two-part episode, Mackenzie and Hanna welcome siblings Rob and Laura, who reveal how their kind-hearted father was quietly robbed blind by their stepmother for nearly three decades. From phony bank statements and forged checks to embezzled retirement payouts and a sham foreclosure's, you'll hear the shocking twists and red flags that went unnoticed for 27 years. As Rob and Laura piece together rumors of embezzlement, payday-loan scams, and daily ATM withdrawals you'll be left wondering how something so outrageous could stay hidden in plain sight. If you or someone you love has ever weathered financial betrayal, this story will resonate on a deeply personal level. Buckle up for part one of this jaw-dropping family saga.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode is sponsored by Miracle Made. Get silver-infused, bacteria-fighting, temperature-regulating sheets and towels at TryMiracle.com/TDD and use code TDD to save over 40% and claim a FREE 3-piece towel set.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Ava. Rebuild your credit fast with no interest, no credit check, with AVA. Download the AVA app and use promo code DATING. This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Simply Pop. Find your favorite new prebiotic soda at CokeURL.com/SimplyPop.This episode is sponsored by SKIMS. Shop the SKIMS Fits Everybody Collection at SKIMS.com. After you place your order be sure to let them know we sent you by filling out the survey! ***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Trigger Warning: This episode contains discussions of physical violence and assault, stalking and harassment, arson, threatening letters, abortion, drug use, and a graphic murder. We will give a warning before the murder details so you can skip through that section if you would prefer!Gear up for a harrowing ride with this week's Dating Detectives as we sit down with Megan to unravel an almost unbelievable tale of deceit, danger, and survival. Megan thought she'd found the perfect guy, only to discover Randy lied about everything from his name and age to his criminal past. Megan's life unravels: she ends the relationship while pregnant, survives a brutal push that leaves her injured, watches her home and cars set aflame, and endures relentless stalking and threatening letters. Years later, she learns that her experience with Randy could have ended far far worse. Throughout, we explore the ethical responsibilities of true-crime storytelling, the perfect-victim myth, the chilling power of “dogfish” deception, and why trusting your “femmetuition” can be the difference between life and death.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkTake control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Simply Pop. Find your favorite new prebiotic soda at CokeURL.com/SimplyPop.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/tdd today to get 10% off your first month.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Trigger Warnings: miscarriage, suicidal ideation, eating disorders (OCD, anorexia), animal cruelty, religious trauma, infidelity, emotional abuseJoin us on this week's episode of The Dating Detectives as we sit down with Cassie, whose “perfect” Utah marriage unravels into a year-long nightmare of betrayal, manipulation, and mental‐health crises. You'll hear how a childhood shaped by poverty and strict religious culture set the stage for a whirlwind teenage engagement, a devastating miscarriage, and months of emotional abandonment. When her husband leans on Cassie's best friend, Cassie uncovers a web of online deception, secret affairs, and shocking cruelty that forces her to choose between self-preservation and the life she thought she wanted. Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode is sponsored by Miracle Made. Get silver-infused, bacteria-fighting, temperature-regulating sheets and towels at TryMiracle.com/TDD and use code TDD to save over 40% and claim a FREE 3-piece towel set.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Ava. Rebuild your credit fast with no interest, no credit check, with AVA. Download the AVA app and use promo code.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Luca and Jeff dive into how AI tools can supercharge embedded development workflows. Luca shares his extensive hands-on experience, while Jeff brings a fresh perspective as someone just starting to incorporate these tools. They explore how AI can help with coding, testing, and debugging - while emphasizing that good software engineering judgment remains crucial. The conversation is particularly timely since AI tools are evolving rapidly, unlike their usually more "evergreen" podcast topics.A key insight they discuss is that while AI tools offer amazing productivity boosts (much like IDEs did), they're not replacing experienced developers anytime soon. However, they raise interesting questions about the future job market for junior developers. Their take? Modern developers should absolutely embrace AI tools, but use them thoughtfully - especially when learning.Key Timestamps and Topics:00:00:00 - Welcome and episode overview00:00:43 - Why this topic won't age well (but that's okay!)00:02:20 - Breaking down different AI coding tools00:08:00 - Deep dive into aider and workflow integration00:20:02 - Using AI for testing and test-driven development00:27:00 - AI-assisted architecture work and its limitations00:30:40 - How AI helps explore unfamiliar codebases00:33:30 - Debugging with AI - pros and cons00:38:50 - What this means for development jobs00:43:59 - Using AI to learn new frameworks/languages00:46:15 - Embedded Online Conference preview You can find Jeff at https://jeffgable.com.You can find Luca at https://luca.engineer.Want to join the agile Embedded Slack? Click here

In this special two-part episode of The Dating Detectives, producer Mollie steps into the hosting chair alongside Hannah while Mackenzie is away, and they're diving into a jaw-dropping story you won't forget. Our guest, Andrea, shares the first chapter of her surreal journey: a whirlwind college romance and marriage, and a seemingly perfect life built on success, trust, and family... until one day, her husband drops a bombshell that shatters it all.Follow Andrea on Tik Tok @andrea.merrimanClick here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkTake control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Simply Pop. Find your favorite new prebiotic soda at CokeURL.com/SimplyPop.Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to Zocdoc.com/tdd find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today.Make this spring your most delicious yet with Green Chef. Head to greenchef.com/50datingdetectives and use code 50datingdetectives to get 50% off your first month, then 20% off for two months with free shipping.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this special two-part episode of The Dating Detectives, producer Mollie steps into the hosting chair alongside Hannah while Mackenzie is away, and they're diving into a jaw-dropping story you won't forget. Our guest, Andrea, shares the first chapter of her surreal journey: a whirlwind college romance and marriage, and a seemingly perfect life built on success, trust, and family... until one day, her husband drops a bombshell that shatters it all. Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode is sponsored by Miracle Made. Get silver-infused, bacteria-fighting, temperature-regulating sheets and towels at TryMiracle.com/TDD and use code TDD to save over 40% and claim a FREE 3-piece towel set.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Dipsea. Enjoy 30 days free of spicy, female-focused audio stories at DipseaStories.com/TDD.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Paired. Head to PAIRED.COM/DATINGDETECTIVES to get a 7-day free trial and 25% off if you sign up for a subscription.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week Mackenzie and Hanna invite the first PI guest on the show to share one of their own stories! The first PI guest is Austin, a nine-year veteran whose toolkit spans family-law digs, criminal-defense surveillance, insurance-fraud exposés and cutting-edge open-source sleuthing. He pulls back the curtain on what it really takes to trail a suspect—long hours in a lobby, split-second decisions on whether to dash inside or stay hidden, and even the pros and cons of facial-recognition software like PIMeyes. You'll get Austin's top safety hacks for vetting dates (free and low-cost background-check resources you can use tonight) and discover why a seemingly innocent Memorial Day beach trip ended with an all-too-public, trunk-wide rendezvous in a cherry-red Porsche.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkTake control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Simpli Pop. Find your favorite new prebiotic soda at CokeURL.com/SimplyPop.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week on The Dating Detectives, we meet Sandra, an accomplished counselor whose relationship began with friendship, trust, and late-night heart-to-hearts during the pandemic. But what started as a slow-burn romance with a charming EMT quickly spiraled into a web of lies, emotional manipulation, financial devastation, and ultimately, physical violence. In Part 2 of this two-part series, Sandra bravely walks us through the gradual erosion of reality that left her questioning everything, including her own sanity. It's a textbook case of how abusers groom, isolate, and control, layer by layer, and a powerful reminder that trusting your instincts isn't just important, it can be life-saving.⚠️ Content Warning: This episode includes descriptions of emotional, financial, and physical abuseClick here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Simply Pop. Find your favorite new prebiotic soda at CokeURL.com/SimplyPop.This episode is sponsored by Miracle Made. Get silver-infused, bacteria-fighting, temperature-regulating sheets and towels at TryMiracle.com/TDD and use code TDD to save over 40% and claim a FREE 3-piece towel set.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Dipsea. Enjoy 30 days free of spicy, female-focused audio stories at DipseaStories.com/TDD.Looking for a new mattress? We cannot recommend Helix enough! Get 25% off sitewide during Sleep Awareness Month at helixsleep.com/datingdetectivesStop putting off those doctors appointments and go to Zocdoc.com/tdd find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today.Make this spring your most delicious yet with Green Chef. Head to greenchef.com/50datingdetectives and use code 50datingdetectives to get 50% off your first month, then 20% off for two months with free shipping.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week on The Dating Detectives, we meet Sandra, an accomplished counselor whose relationship began with friendship, trust, and late-night heart-to-hearts during the pandemic. But what started as a slow-burn romance with a charming EMT quickly spiraled into a web of lies, emotional manipulation, financial devastation, and ultimately, physical violence. In Part 1 of this two-part series, Sandra bravely walks us through the gradual erosion of reality that left her questioning everything, including her own sanity. It's a textbook case of how abusers groom, isolate, and control, layer by layer, and a powerful reminder that trusting your instincts isn't just important, it can be life-saving.⚠️ Content Warning: This episode includes descriptions of emotional, financial, and physical abuseClick here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Ava. Rebuild your credit fast with no interest, no credit check, with AVA. Download the AVA app and use promo code.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Simpli Pop. Find your favorite new prebiotic soda at CokeURL.com/SimplyPop.Take control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. ***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week on Dating Detectives, we dive into a jaw-dropping Dogfish case: Kayla met “Captain Charming” on Bumble, fell head over heels for his adventurous pilot lifestyle…only to discover his shocking secret. Four years of stolen birthdays, radio-silence excuses, and covert layovers lead to one of our sleuthiest investigations yet, complete with Facebook tip-offs, frantic hospital calls, and a blow-by-blow digital dossier that finally blows this Mile-High Liar's cover. Tune in for the ultimate lesson in trust, intuition, and protecting your heart.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/tdd today to get 10% off your first month.This episode is sponsored by Miracle Made. Get silver-infused, bacteria-fighting, temperature-regulating sheets and towels at TryMiracle.com/TDD and use code TDD to save over 40% and claim a FREE 3-piece towel set.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Paired. Head to PAIRED.COM/DATINGDETECTIVES to get a 7-day free trial and 25% off if you sign up for a subscription.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Mackenzie takes us back nearly twenty years to one of her very first PI cases: a bitter ex‑wife who escalates tire‑slashing and car‐keying into a downright surreal bologna‑vandalism spree—plastering her rival's vehicle with Oscar Mayer slices in full daylight—and, most shockingly, snorting cocaine off her child's Lisa Frank lunchbox in an elementary school parking lot. Through careful, real‑time surveillance and crystal‑clear video evidence, Mackenzie helps secure drug charges and an emergency custody injunction, protecting the kids and teaching her the hard‑won balance between caution and guts in the field. It's a jaw‑dropping, true‑crime palette‑cleanser that proves: when it comes to family drama, you never know just how wild things can get.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page. And now for $9 a month you can get all of that, plus ad free episodes!It's our two-year anniversary, and we're celebrating by reopening the merch store! We've got sweat suits, key chain alarms, hats, mugs and more. Click here to shop now!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkTake control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/tdd today to get 10% off your first month.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Dipsea. Enjoy 30 days free of spicy, female-focused audio stories at DipseaStories.com/TDD.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Ava. Rebuild your credit fast with no interest, no credit check, with AVA. Download the AVA app and use promo code.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Simpli Pop. Find your favorite new prebiotic soda at CokeURL.com/SimplyPop.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's our two-year anniversary, and we're celebrating by reopening the merch store! We've got sweat suits, key chain alarms, hats, mugs and more. Click here to shop now!In this weeks episode you will meet Gabby, who believed she'd found stability with a respected therapist and community leader, until hidden debts, late-night projects, and odd excuses began to erode her trust. When one explosive event turns her world upside-down, she must protect her two young children, lean on unexpected allies, and learn to trust herself again.Content Warning: This episode touches on addiction, mental health struggles, financial secrets, and a life-shattering betrayal. If you or someone you know is in crisis, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 or dial 988 for the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkSPONSORED BY:Miracle Made: Get silver-infused, bacteria-fighting, temperature-regulating sheets and towels at TryMiracle.com/TDD and use code TDD to save over 40% and claim a FREE 3-piece towel set.Simply Pop by Coca-Cola: Find your favorite new prebiotic soda at CokeURL.com/SimplyPop.Helix: Looking for a new mattress? We cannot recommend Helix enough! Get 25% off sitewide during Sleep Awareness Month at helixsleep.com/datingdetectivesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

On this week's Dating Detectives Monday, we welcome back matrimonial attorney Leslie Barbara, and her client Allison, who share one of the most jaw‑dropping “Dogfish” scams we've ever seen. Allison thought she'd met a charming Scottish real‑estate developer on Hinge, only to be drawn into a web of hotel double‑charges, “escrowed” millions, vanished luggage (and credit cards), even a suspicious bout of illness, all while he convinced everyone from gym staff to Porsche dealers that he was the real deal. Together, Leslie and Allison dissect the red flags, legal pitfalls (power of attorney, anyone?), and the surprising AI sleuthing that finally unmasked him. Tune in for hard‑won lessons on spotting, stopping, and surviving romance scams—and why locking your credit (and trusting your fem‑tuition) could make all the difference.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkTake control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/tdd today to get 10% off your first month.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Paired. Head to PAIRED.COM/DATINGDETECTIVES to get a 7-day free trial and 25% off if you sign up for a subscription.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When Maya stumbled across a sweaty cowboy thirst trap on TikTok during lockdown, she had no idea it would spiral into a years-long relationship built on lies, manipulation, and financial abuse. From dry begging to full-blown gaslighting, Maya shares how a charming "rancher" turned out to be a serial scammer juggling multiple partners, draining their finances, and faking entire life stories. But this isn't just a cautionary tale—it's a story of survival, sisterhood, and fighting back.Maya not only survived cancer during this emotional warzone, but found unexpected healing and lifelong friendships in the other women he conned. Together, they formed their own investigative coven to expose the truth and protect future victims.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkSPONSORED BY: Miracle Made: Get silver-infused, bacteria-fighting, temperature-regulating sheets and towels at TryMiracle.com/TDD and use code TDD to save over 40% and claim a FREE 3-piece towel set. – Simply Pop by Coca-Cola: Find your favorite new prebiotic soda at CokeURL.com/SimplyPop. – Dipsea: Enjoy 30 days free of spicy, female-focused audio stories at DipseaStories.com/TDD. – AVA: Rebuild your credit fast with no interest, no credit check. Download the AVA app and use promo code DATING for your first month free.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week on The Dating Detectives, we're joined by Nick, a rare male guest with a story that starts like a romance novel and ends in shocking betrayal. What began as a fun, flirty college friendship slowly evolved into a deep, long-distance love that spanned 15 years. From inside jokes and late-night calls to emotional support and shared dreams, Nick and Jen's friends-to-lovers arc felt like fate, until one innocent scroll on Facebook revealed the devastating truth. Merch is on sale until this Wednesday 4/9! Make sure to order before then to secure your goodie. Click here to shop now!Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkThank you to Netflix and their new show, Pulse, for sponsoring this episode! Premiering April 3 – A new hospital drama with mystery, romance, and high-stakes chaos. If you love Dating Detectives and Medical Detectives, you will love Pulse!Take control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/tdd today to get 10% off your first month.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this gripping two-part episode, our hosts dive into Laura's shocking and emotional journey of love, deception, and heartbreak. Laura shares her whirlwind romance with a charming resort worker that spiraled into a tangled web of manipulation, financial exploitation, and emotional abuse.Trigger Warnings: This episode includes discussions about financial abuse, emotional abuse, suicidal ideation, and revenge porn. Listener discretion is advised.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkInterested in checking out Laura's podcast? Listen hereTake control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. Upgrade your sleep today. Go to trymiracle.com/tdd to try Miracle Made Sheets and get over 40% off. Plus, use our promo code TDD at checkout to get a free 3-piece towel set and save an extra 20%. With their 30-day money-back guarantee, there's zero risk to try.This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Dipsea. For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30 day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/ TDDThis episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Paired. Head to PAIRED.COM/DATINGDETECTIVES to get a 7-day free trial and 25% off if you sign up for a subscription.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this wild episode of The Dating Detectives, Mackenzie goes full undercover PI to investigate a mysterious series of toll violations that lead to an unexpected discovery—a Dogfish caught in the act! When a devoted wife suspects her husband's car is being used fraudulently, Mackenzie uncovers a shocking story of deception and betrayal.Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email investigate@thedatingdetectivespodcast.com or contact us through our website using this linkTake control of your data today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by visiting joindeleteme.com/datingdetectives and using the promo code TDD at checkout. Upgrade your sleep today. Go to trymiracle.com/tdd to try Miracle Made Sheets and get over 40% off. Plus, use our promo code TDD at checkout to get a free 3-piece towel set and save an extra 20%. With their 30-day money-back guarantee, there's zero risk to try.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.