History Extra podcast

While the crusades raged across the Holy Land in the southern Levant, the kingdoms of central and northern Europe were engaged in their own battle to extend Christendom. Speaking to James Osborne, Aleks Pluskowski details how and when the Baltic crusades – or Northern crusades – began, and examines their links to the broader crusading culture of the Middle Ages. ----- GO BEYOND THE PODCAST To learn more about the medieval history of central and eastern Europe, listen to our episode on the role of the Rus people in the formation of the lands that are now Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia: https://bit.ly/4k7dF68 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Politicians invoke it, activists wield it, and legal thinkers debate what it can offer the modern world. But what does Magna Carta really mean today? In this fourth and final episode of HistoryExtra's Sunday Series on the charter, Emily Briffett and historian Nicholas Vincent consider its long afterlife, tracing how a narrow medieval settlement morphed into a document that still speaks to ongoing struggles about power, justice and freedom. ––––– GO BEYOND THE PODCAST If you're curious to learn more about Magna Carta and the world in which it originated, Emily Briffett has put together some essential reading, listening and viewing from the HistoryExtra archive to help deepen your understanding: https://bit.ly/3ZMTReR Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Slavery in the Islamic world has a diverse and controversial history. Speaking to Emily Briffett, historian and journalist Justin Marozzi explores some of the stories at the heart of his latest book Captives and Companions, tracing networks of enslavement that stretched from sub-Saharan Africa to Central Asia. He reveals how people who were enslaved became soldiers, labourers, concubines and courtiers, and considers what this complex history tells us about power, faith and human experience across the centuries. ----- GO BEYOND THE PODCAST To find out more about the history of slavery, catch up with this episode of the HistoryExtra podcast in which historian Claire Taylor explores the realities of slave trading along the medieval Silk Road: https://bit.ly/40itSfu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

National icons aren't born – they're engineered. But how were historical figures such as Joan of Arc and Isabella of Castile transformed into political symbols, their real lives lost beneath centuries of myth-making? In this episode of the HistoryExtra podcast, Janina Ramirez tells Danny Bird about some of the women – from Byzantine empresses to religious fanatics and revolutionary martyrs – that have been elevated to such pedestals, and how these legends are created, re-created and repurposed for nationalist mythologies. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Widely remembered as the ultimate American inventor, Edison's greatest talent may have been for self-promotion. In this episode, historian Iwan Morus speaks to Elinor Evans about how Edison built a brand around invention, clashed with rivals including Nikola Tesla, and exploited the press to secure his legacy – even when the science involved wasn't all his own. ----- GO BEYOND THE PODCAST To find out more about the ‘current war' between Edison, Tesla and Westinghouse, head to: https://bit.ly/4q3xUTB. And to listen to Iwan's interview about Nikola Tesla, visit: https://bit.ly/45yU7S3 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Captured in Libya, imprisoned in Italy, and twice an escapee: historian Malcolm Gaskill's great-uncle Ralph's experiences of the Second World War were certainly dramatic. Yet he left behind little more than a few photos, a wartime memoir, and a few stories filtered through family legend. But through years of research, travel and a unique partnership with an Italian historian, Gaskill has pieced together a story of quiet courage and unexpected connections. Here, in conversation with Elinor Evans, he discusses the resulting book, The Glass Mountain, and the challenges of telling such histories. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As King John was poised to press his seal into the wax of a document whose impact would reverberate for centuries, did he understand the ramifications it would have? And what were the chances he would keep his word? In this penultimate episode of HistoryExtra's Sunday Series on Magna Carta, Emily Briffett and historian Nicholas Vincent follow the tumultuous events of the years immediately after 1215, from war to negotiation. ––––– GO BEYOND THE PODCAST If you're curious to learn more about Magna Carta and the world in which it originated, Emily Briffett has put together some essential reading, listening and viewing from the HistoryExtra archive to help deepen your understanding: https://bit.ly/3ZMTReR Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Victorian period was a time of great economic, cultural and technological change. But what was it like to actually live through it? Speaking to Isabel King, author Jamie Camplin – whose latest book is Being Victorian – charts the highs and lows of the era, from the lasting legacy of the 1851 Great Exhibition to what today's society can learn from the 19th century. ----- GO BEYOND THE PODCAST To find out more about the significant changes that took place in the Victorian period, don't miss our HistoryExtra Academy course on Victorian Britain, with historian Ruth Goodman: https://bit.ly/3NEj6xi Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In 1838, a 6ft Cornishman going by the name of Sir William Courtenay led an insurrection in rural Kent. Courtenay claimed he was Jesus Christ – and a lot of people believed him. And when those supporters clashed with troops at Bossenden Wood, the result was carnage. Here, in conversation with Spencer Mizen, Ian Breckon describes the last battle fought on English soil and considers what it tells us about Victorian Britain. ----- GO BEYOND THE PODCAST Don't miss the new HistoryExtra podcast series History's Greatest Battles, back for a new run exploring the Wars of the Roses. For more details, click here: https://play.megaphone.fm/nl_id4hhr2s5izmxcjam3g Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Pocahontas's life is shrouded in myth – but how much of that lore is true? Speaking to Emily Briffett, historian Camilla Townsend brings us face to face with the real Pocahontas, revealing how she acted as a diplomatic bridge in a fragile encounter with English colonists – and considering the way in which her legacy still shapes our view of American history. ----- GO BEYOND THE PODCAST The story of Native American societies decimated by European arrival is a familiar one. But, while undoubtedly important, that's only one part of the story. In this podcast episode, Kathleen DuVal looks back at 1,000 years of Native American history to uncover a rich, complex picture of North America's Indigenous people: https://bit.ly/49UZg9M. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The spinning jenny and steam power may be the textbook markers of the Industrial Revolution – but Edmond Smith argues the story starts earlier, and runs much deeper. In this conversation with Elinor Evans, he traces the threads of industrialisation from sheep pastures to global markets, revealing how British economic power was built on innovation – but also empire, slavery, and ruthless ambition. ----- GO BEYOND THE PODCAST Curious to go beyond what you learned in the school classroom? Find out more about the Industrial Revolution at https://bit.ly/49H4YMe2 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Magna Carta may be associated today with power, liberty and freedom – but those weren't quite the concerns back in 1215. So what did the barons really demand of King John? And what can this document tell us about the lives of people in medieval England? In this second episode of HistoryExtra's Sunday Series on Magna Carta, Emily Briffett and historian Nicholas Vincent delve into the archive to uncover the real charter – and reveal why it's not quite the liberty manifesto of legend. ––––– GO BEYOND THE PODCAST If you're curious to learn more about Magna Carta and the world in which it originated, Emily Briffett has put together some essential reading, listening and viewing from the HistoryExtra archive to help deepen your understanding: https://bit.ly/3ZMTReR Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Queen Victoria was – so legend has it – famously 'not amused'. But, as Dr Bob Nicholson reveals in this episode of the HistoryExtra podcast, the long-lived queen did have a sense of humour – as did her subjects. Speaking with David Musgrove, Bob explores what made people laugh in the 19th century.  Please note: this episode contains some very strong language and adult humour. ----- GO BEYOND THE PODCAST Want to delve further into the stranger side of Victorian life? Listen to our series on the life of 19th-century circus showman, animal wrangler, and long-distance wheelbarrow pedestrian Bob Carlisle in our podcast series, The Tiger Tamer who Went to Sea: https://bit.ly/4qBaCFH. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What do your hands reveal about you? Historian Alison Bashford joins Elinor Evans to explore the extraordinary history of how people have interpreted the human hand. From ancient divination to cutting-edge medical diagnostics, her book Decoding the Hand reveals how palm reading once sat at the centre, not the fringes, of science. In this episode, she explains how hands were used to predict character, diagnose disease, and even identify criminals – and why they still hold such symbolic power today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thomas More is best remembered as a martyr and a saint, but the circumstances of his death were just one facet of his controversial life. Historian and biographer Dr Joanne Paul speaks to Kev Lochun about More's many faces: the Lord Chancellor who refused to yield to Henry VIII; the writer who gave us Utopia, and the zealot who believed heretics deserved to be burned. Yet, she argues, he was none of these things of in isolation, but instead a complicated man whose life has lessons for us today. ----- GO BEYOND THE PODCAST Thomas More's Utopia is considered one of the most influential pieces of political philosophy today, but how did his contemporaries see it? Joanne Paul considers that thorny question for HistoryExtra: https://bit.ly/49IOYt6. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Strikes and unions may seem like modern inventions, but they've existed for much longer than many of us realise. Historian Sarah E Bond talks to Jon Bauckham about how people in ancient Rome challenged authority and withheld their labour – from disgruntled mint workers to rebellious charioteers. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the early 13th century, England was a kingdom under pressure, as the challenges posed by King John's reign had left the realm restless. By 1215, tensions had reached boiling point. What began as isolated grumblings among nobles soon evolved into an organised challenge to royal authority – all building up to a showdown at Runnymede in 1215. In this first episode of HistoryExtra's Sunday Series on Magna Carta, Emily Briffett is joined by Nicholas Vincent to explore how John's disastrous reign set the stage for the charter. ––––– GO BEYOND THE PODCAST Want to learn more about Magna Carta and the world in which it originated? Emily Briffett has put together some essential reading, listening and viewing from the HistoryExtra archive to help deepen your understanding: https://bit.ly/3ZMTReR Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In 1895, when the National Trust was founded, homosexual acts of ‘gross indecency' were still illegal in Britain. And yet, as Michael Hall reveals in his new book, A Queer Inheritance: Alternative Histories in the National Trust, the organisation had queer connections from its very earliest days. Charlotte Vosper caught up with Michael to learn more about how those connections developed throughout the 20th century. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why is a small observatory in south east London so important to the story of how we tell the time? Speaking to Elinor Evans, Emily Akkermans, Curator of Time at the Royal Museums Greenwich, shares the history behind Greenwich Mean Time (GMT). From 17th-century efforts to solve the 'longitude problem' at sea, to the red 'time ball' that still drops at 1pm each day, this episode uncovers how Britain's maritime ambitions, royal patronage and scientific ingenuity turned Greenwich into the beating heart of global timekeeping. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

James Gillray was one of Georgian Britain's most ruthless satirists, using his prints to mock kings, politicians and generals, turning politics into popular entertainment. From the print shops of London, he reduced figures such as Napoleon to objects of ridicule while capturing the humour and anxieties of an age shaped by revolution and war. Historian Alice Loxton speaks to Rachel Dinning about Gillray's world, the crucial role of his publisher Hannah Humphrey, and why his imagery still underpins modern political cartoons. ----- GO BEYOND THE PODCASTAlice hosts HistoryExtra Academy's The World of the Georgians, which explores Gillray's art and what it reveals about Georgian society. Find out more here: https://bit.ly/46b8YSTAnd don't miss our live Q&A with Alice Loxton and HistoryExtra's Lauren Good at 7pm on Wednesday 4 February on Instagram. Follow us at @historyextra for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

After France fell in 1940, it was Charles de Gaulle who led the Free French forces against Nazi Germany and Vichy France. From the moment he assumed that position, de Gaulle was locked into a relationship with British prime minister Winston Churchill. The two men are the subject of the latest book by Professor Richard Vinen, The Last Titans, and here, in conversation with James Osborne, he shares his insights into the two men, their relationship, and their lasting impact. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When the cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum were buried by ash spewed out of Vesuvius in AD 79, so too were their inhabitants, frozen in the moment of their deaths. In the final episode of our four-part series, Kev Lochun is joined by historian Dr Jess Venner to discuss the myriad legacies of Pompeii. They explore the dangers of imprinting stories on mortal remains, the Pompeiian propensity for erotic art – and why, centuries on, Pompeii still echoes through the ages. ––––– GO BEYOND THE PODCAST Want to know more about the story of Pompeii? HistoryExtra's Kev Lochun has curated a selection of essential reading from the HistoryExtra and BBC History Magazine archive to help you explore the story of the cataclysm, the Roman way of life and the nature of the Roman empire: https://bit.ly/4bjYKmE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Has the United States always seen Latin America as its ‘backyard'? And when did influence tip into intervention? In this episode, Danny Bird is joined by Yale University's Greg Grandin to explore the long, turbulent history of US–Latin American relations, from westward expansion and early regime change to gunboat diplomacy, corporate empires and the Cold War. ---- GO BEYOND THE PODCAST Don't miss our new podcast series History Behind the Headlines: Briefing, in which we task expert historians with bringing you the history you need to make sense of the headlines – in five minutes or less: https://play.megaphone.fm/p6xgtqh2tfwkyptbmlp4vw Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What do exploding bats and amphibious galleons have in common? They're both fascinating features of some of the world's most mysterious manuscripts, as revealed by journalist and author Garry J Shaw in his book, Cryptic. From Hildegard of Bingen's secret language to the hoaxes of Renaissance Spain, and from John Dee's angelic communications to the peculiar Voynich Manuscript, Shaw unravels the allure and enigma of texts shrouded in secrecy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Emerging in the early 20th century as Europe's youngest general since Napoleon Bonaparte, Francisco Franco was destined to make waves. But how did this uncharismatic reactionary become Spain's dictator, dominating the country for nearly four decades? Danny Bird speaks to journalist Giles Tremlett about the life of the man who continues to haunt Spain more than 50 years after his death in 1975. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

"Statistically, they were on a suicide mission." That's Roger Moorhouse's assessment of the odds facing Hitler's U-boat crews in the final years of the Second World War. Speaking with Spencer Mizen, Roger relates the story of these missions from the German perspective – a tale encompassing scurvy, sleep deprivation, terror and acts of astonishing kindness. (Ad) Roger Moorhouse is the author of Wolfpack: Inside Hitler's U-boat War (William Collins, 2025). Buy it now from Waterstones: https://go.skimresources.com?id=71026X1535947&xcust=historyextra-social-histboty&xs=1&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.waterstones.com%2Fbook%2Fwolfpack%2Froger-moorhouse%2F9780008644895. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The buried Roman city of Pompeii was ‘discovered' in the 16th century, but was it ever lost? In this penultimate episode of our four-part series, Kev Lochun speaks with historian Dr Jess Venner about the years between destruction and excavation. How did the beleaguered Roman emperor Titus react to the disaster and the refugee crisis that followed? Why was no attempt made to resettle and rebuild? And how did the city become the archeological marvel we know it as today? ––––– GO BEYOND THE PODCAST Want to know more about the story of Pompeii? HistoryExtra's Kev Lochun has curated a selection of essential reading from the HistoryExtra and BBC History Magazine archive to help you explore the story of the cataclysm, the Roman way of life and the nature of the Roman empire: https://bit.ly/4bjYKmE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the chaotic opening months of the First World War, Britain's intelligence services were desperate to learn where the Germans would attack next. Enter the White Lady. As historian Helen Fry lays out in her new book, this courageous network of Belgian civilians began spying on German troops from behind enemy lines – and, in the process, changed the course of the war. Here, in conversation with Spencer Mizen, Helen tells an extraordinary story of massacres, drug dealing, double-crossing and secret messages encased in potatoes. ----- GO BEYOND THE PODCAST For more on spycraft in the Second World War, don't miss our interview with Helen Fry on the ingenious British intelligence operation to bug German prisoners during the conflict: https://bit.ly/459WzOG Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From the mud-churned battlefields of the First World War to the high-stakes clashes of the Cold War, the tank has shaped the course of conflict like no other machine. In this episode, Emily Briffett is joined by Mark Urban, as he reveals the dramatic evolution of armoured warfare through its iconic vehicles – and the engineers, commanders and crews who drove them into the history books. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Robert McNamara is best remembered as a key architect of the Vietnam War, a man who pushed for military escalation as thousands died on all sides of the conflict. In this episode of the HistoryExtra podcast, historians William and Philip Taubman speak with Elinor Evans about their landmark biography of one of the most powerful and controversial men in American history. Drawing on newly uncovered material, including Jackie Kennedy's personal letters and a secret Pentagon aide's diary, they reveal the inner world of a man who was often blamed for escalating the Vietnam War – while privately longing to end it. ––––– GO BEYOND THE PODCAST Don't miss our podcast series on the Cuban Missile Crisis, in which Bill Taubman joined a panel of experts to tell Elinor Evans about a pivotal 13 days that saw diplomatic tensions escalate in a world on the brink of nuclear disaster. All four episodes are available now: https://bit.ly/45TLykN. ––––– (Ad) William and Philip Taubman are the authors of McNamara at War: A New History (WW Norton & Co, 2025). Buy it now from Waterstones: http://www.awin1.com/cread.php?awinmid=2400&awinaffid=489797&p=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.waterstones.com%2Fbook%2Fmcnamara-at-war%2Fwilliam-taubman%2Fphilip-taubman%2F9781324007166&clickref=historyextra-social-histboty. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In his latest book, The Hitler Years: Holocaust 1933–1945, Frank McDonough offers a heart-rending year-by-year narrative of the Nazis' escalating persecution of the Jews – from Hitler's rise to power to the death camps. Here, in conversation with Spencer Mizen, Frank describes how a campaign of intimidation on the streets of Germany evolved into genocide. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Roman towns of Pompeii and Herculaneum were wiped off the map within 24 hours of Vesuvius erupting, buried under volcanic debris that would entomb them for centuries. In this second episode of our four-part series, Kev Lochun is joined by historian Dr Jess Venner to explore the cataclysm with the help of the experiences of two men: Roman statesman Pliny the Elder, who sailed into danger never to return, and his nephew Pliny the Younger, whose letters provide the only known eyewitness account of the disaster.   ––––– GO BEYOND THE PODCAST Want to know more about the story of Pompeii? HistoryExtra's Kev Lochun has curated a selection of essential reading from the HistoryExtra and BBC History Magazine archive to help you explore the story of the cataclysm, the Roman way of life and the nature of the Roman empire: https://bit.ly/4bjYKmE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the eyes of a German fighter pilot in the skies over English Channel in 1940, the Battle of Britain was as much a struggle of human endurance as it was of strategy and skill. Speaking to Emily Briffett, aviation historian Dr Victoria Taylor takes us inside the mind of the Luftwaffe, revealing the experiences of pilots, ground crews and support personnel as they faced the perils of aerial combat, the brutal pressure of Nazi ideology, and the relentless intensity demanded of them by those in command. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The roots of immigration detention in the US stretch back over a century. Speaking to Elinor Evans, historian Brianna Nofil explores how the US built a vast migrant detention regime. From jailing Chinese migrants in 1900s upstate New York to the private prison boom of the 1980s and beyond, she explores why detention remains a defining and deeply contested feature of American immigration policy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

While most of the other surviving Axis leaders were put on trial following the end of the Second World War, Japan's Emperor Hirohito never faced justice and, instead, continued to reign until his death in 1989. Debate continues about how far he was personally responsible for Japanese aggression in the 1930s and 40s, and in today's Life of the Week episode, Dr Christopher Harding guides Rob Attar through those arguments – and explores Hirohito's role in Japan's hugely successful postwar transition. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How did a muddy settlement on the banks of the river Tiber grow into the greatest empire the world had ever seen? Who was the more diabolical: Caligula or Nero? And was there really such a thing as Pax Romana? Speaking with Spencer Mizen, Edward Watts answers some of the most intriguing questions about this extraordinary culture – and considers just how Rome rose to dominate the ancient world. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In AD 79, Pompeii and Herculaneum were subsumed by the eruption of Vesuvius, buried and preserved under metres of volcanic ash. Today, they are among the most famous ruins of the ancient world – and in this four-part Sunday Series, we'll be exploring their secrets. In this first episode, historian Dr Jess Venner guides Kev Lochun through daily life in Pompeii and Herculaneum. They explore the myths surrounding the ‘mountain', why pomegranates mean we can't precisely date the disaster and how – implausible as it may seem today – the residents of these Roman cities had no idea they were living in the shadow of death.  ––––– GO BEYOND THE PODCAST Want to know more about the story of Pompeii? HistoryExtra's Kev Lochun has curated a selection of essential reading from the HistoryExtra and BBC History Magazine archive to help you explore the story of the cataclysm, the Roman way of life and the nature of the Roman empire: https://bit.ly/4bjYKmE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars, it fell to Britain to maintain the balance of power in continental Europe – but how could a small island manage such a task? How could it prevent the rise of another tricorned tyrant? That's the subject of Andrew Lambert's sweeping new book No More Napoleons. Speaking to Kev Lochun, he explains how Britain helped maintain peace in Europe without the need for huge armies, why Belgium was so important to maintaining stability on the continent, and why the idea of ‘Britannia Rules the Waves' continues to be relevant today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The past 12 months have seen protests around the world make headlines and dominate social media feeds. But how have such popular demonstrations changed the course of history? In this episode, historians Katrina Navickas and Timothy Garton Ash join Danny Bird to explore centuries of people power – and the protests that had the most impact. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hatshepsut is one of ancient Egypt's most extraordinary figures: a pharaoh who deftly asserted her right to the throne, reigned over an era of prosperity, and commissioned some of the most iconic monuments of the era. But how did she rise from a royal princess and consort to become pharaoh in her own right? Emily Briffett is joined by Egyptologist Dr Campbell Price to explore Hatshepsut's remarkable story – from how she navigated public relations to the complex dynamics between her and Thutmose III. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The chaos of the Spanish conquest, the humiliation of military defeat to the United States, the disruption of the revolution… Mexican history is often viewed through the lens of trauma and violence. Yet, as Paul Gillingham outlines in a new book, Mexico: A History, this was also one of the earliest democracies in the world – one in which Indigenous peoples enjoyed rights unthinkable in the US at the time. Paul guides Spencer Mizen through one nation's extraordinary history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What does Austen's later writing tell us about her changing ideas? And what factors contributed to her death? In this fourth and final episode of our series chronicling the novelist's life and work, Dr Lizzie Rogers charts the last part of Austen's story, and her enormous continuing influence. ––––– GO BEYOND THE PODCAST Want to go further into the world of Jane Austen and her literary creations? HistoryExtra's Lauren Good rounds up some essential reading, listening and viewing from the HistoryExtra and BBC History Magazine archive to deepen your understanding of Austen's life, her work and the Regency era in which she wrote: https://bit.ly/49F9oUk Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices