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Now we start getting into the cool stuff!  Emily works at the Chester Cathedral - built in 1093 but at that time was a benedict abbey. It is this big beautiful building that is a tourist magnet.  When I saw Gaia there it was breathtaking. Gaia was this massive rotating earth that was internally lit. I've also done the Tower Tour there and it is SO INTERESTING. She works there! It's like working at Hogwarts - except more progressive.  YES. I'm not a religous person, but I love the stuff the cathedral is doing. We get into in the podcast ... so listen ... 

On this week's episode, Writer/Showrunner Bill Martin (The Unicorn, The Neighborhood, 3rd Rock From The Sun, and many many more) talks about his showbiz career and starting out writing in sketch comedy then eventually transitioning over to scripted. Tune in as he also talks about his experiences working with a writing partner.SHOW NOTESBill Martin's IMDB Page - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0551979/Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPTBill Martin:When we got on board, we just got an overall deal with A, B, C. So we were assignable to this and we thought, this is insane. We'd love the commercials about anybody, but there's no way they're going to put on. So we thought it was just like, we'll help out a pilot, meet some new people, and then we'll do something else. It was shocking to us that they put it on tv.Michael Jamin:Oh, howBill Martin:Interesting. Because it just seems so unlikely, but with anything you do, you know how it is. Once you're given your assignment, you've got to find a way to take pride in it.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I got another great guest today Actually. Ordinarily I would never have a sitcom writer who's more successful than me on my show. I out of Insecurity, but I'm doing it today to prove that I'm more magnanimous than he is. And so welcome to the show, bill Martin, whose credits are fricking crazy good and he had so many great credits. I'm going to list some of the great credits and I'm also, maybe I'll throw in some not so great credits to humble you, to keep you humble.Bill Martin:There are plenty of,Michael Jamin:But you started in Living Color and I wanted to talk about that. I love that show. But then she tv, third Rock from the Sun, grounded for Life, and I'm skipping many. Okay, cavemen, the singles table. Hank How to Rock Malibu Country Soul Man, which I believe, I think we met on that and I think you guys beat us out with good reason.Bill Martin:That's what I'm really here for. Revenge.Michael Jamin:Yes. Right, right, right. Living Biblically. We'll talk about that. And the, the unicorn, the neighborhood, the unicorn, which you and your partner created and the neighborhood. Are you guys running that as well, neighborhood or no? We are. You are. Damn. What's it like to be welcome to the show and what's it like to be a working sitcom writer? What's it like working on a network TV show nowadays?Bill Martin:Yeah. Well, I mean, I will point out that it's fantastic and I know that because I've also been a non-working sitcom writer. Plenty. I mean, that's the awful thing about this life we've chosen is that every spring is the panic of, oh my God, am I retired? I just don't know it yet.Michael Jamin:What do you know? Brian Bihar? Do you know who he is?Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:He said me and he said to me that people in the business are retired seven years before they know it.Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:I hadn't heard that. I was like, oh God, is the clockBill Martin:Running? I knew that makes perfect sense though. Yeah, yeah.Michael Jamin:But the thing is not even about staffing season anymore now you don't even know when you're not working. You justBill Martin:True. True.Michael Jamin:So what is it like, how is it, honestly, haven't written on a network television show in many years we've been on cable or whatever, streaming. And how has it changed? How has Network changed? More notes, last notes.Bill Martin:That's the weird thing is it has not changed. I mean, we are preserved in Amber. The neighborhood is just the good old days. It's a big writer's room. It's run throughs, it's show nights. It's really almost unreal. When we took the job, we expected it to, COVID obviously jumbled everything up, but once the covid restricted to Lifted, it was like, oh, this is exactly the classic sitcom situation.Michael Jamin:See, one of my fears is that multi cameras will go away because there's so few people still doing it. I mean, do you feel that way?Bill Martin:Yeah, we keep thinking that they're done, but at the same time, people are still watching friends in Seinfeld and there still aren't that many single camera comedies that are that sticky with people. So I'm not sure that they're being given up on yet. I mean, there's pros and cons to them, but I think that kind of warmth that you only have when you're watching an audience show is something that people still crave.Michael Jamin:But I mean in terms of there's so few multi-camera shows being made now, then let's say in 10 or 15 years if they want to make more, who's going to know how to do it?Bill Martin:The breeding pool is, yeah, the breeding pool has shrunk to the point where we'll all be just inbred ligers. Yeah, you're right. Frankly, that's why I'm working because there's not a minor league for it anymore. Yeah, I know N B C and a BBC are trying them. They are developing them, but really right now it's Monday night on c b s and that's about it. So we are fully prepared to just turn off the lights when we leave and that'll be the end. ButMichael Jamin:Now tell me how you broke in, because I think your first creative was living single, I mean not living single, but living color.Bill Martin:Living color andMichael Jamin:Living, which, so there was a sketch show, which huge for the young people. I mean it, Jim Carrey and all these huge stars came out of that, which you couldn't have been imagined back then. It's one of the first shows on Fox. But how did that come to be? How did you get on that?Bill Martin:That was purely a situation where Keenan burned through writers so fast that they were always hiringMichael Jamin:Really.Bill Martin:And we got our first agent and this says 92, and she said, there's openings that in living color. There's always opening today in living color because Kena was demanding and he was hard to work for, but it was a great job. And so we went in and pitched, and I think it was kind of a conveyor belt of new writers coming in there all the time. And we actually managed to stick for the final two years of the show and not get fired, which is a very small club for people who've worked for Keenan, I think.Michael Jamin:And so you put together a sketch packet. How did you even know what to do? I wouldn't know what to do to get hired in a sketch show.Bill Martin:It was write a couple of sketches for existing characters and write a couple of sketches that are new ideas or commercial parodies or something likeMichael Jamin:That. And did any of those ever make it to air?Bill Martin:No, but I think because of how anal my partner Mike Schiff is what we came in with were very thoroughly thought out ideas. I think that's what must have impressed Keenan, was that we didn't come in pulling stuff out of our ass. We were prepared.Michael Jamin:It was such an amazing show. And then you went to she tv, which is interesting. That show was produced. I don't know if it's any interesting for anyone other than me and you, but it was produced by Tamara Rawitz who gave me my first Yes, sheBill Martin:And Tamara was also the producer of In Living Color, where she wentMichael Jamin:There. Oh, I guess I did know that. And she, TV was another sketch show, but it didn't last very long.Bill Martin:Yep. No, I don't even know if they aired all the episodes. It was a summer replacement show when that was still a thing, and it was produced by George Slaughter of Laughin Fame and it felt Laughin vintage even in the mid nineties. It felt a little like a good old fashioned throwback variety show.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Because she went on to produce the Mike and Maddie show, and so she hired me on that and then she jumped ship. I thought she was going to be a big break in, but alright. And then Third Rock on the Sun. I should make it clear we've never even worked together, but you're one of these people. I always felt like one of these days we're going to work together and just never happened. ButBill Martin:Yes. And we also have the Alschuler Krinsky Bridge between us. That's right. Weirdly, they're some of my oldest friends and I've never worked with them either.Michael Jamin:Oh, I didn't know thatBill Martin:Either it's inevitable or we're like the opposite ends of a magnet that can never work together.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right, right.Bill Martin:We'll find out.Michael Jamin:But also, yeah, Abramson Thompson, we worked with him for many years and we great guy. But alright, so then Third Rock from the Sun, another great show. Tell me a little about your experience on that.Bill Martin:Well, those days there were sketch writers and there were sitcom writers and we were sketch guys and we'd written lots of spec sitcoms. We couldn't get a job. We kept working on sketch shows and we had, after she tv, we actually did a House of Buggin in New York, the John Zamo.Michael Jamin:Right. He's great.Bill Martin:That was a blast. It was fun to work in New York, although our producer had to take a brown bag full of cash to some guy in Brooklyn so that we were allowed to film there. So we're kind of in Sketch jail. But Bonnie and Terry Turner, who created she TV then created Third Rock in the Sun. And because they'd come from Saturday Night Live and they'd written movies, they'd kind of done a lot of different things. They didn't have those expectations that you hire, sketch people for sketches and sitcom people for sitcom. So we had a great experience with them on ctv. So we were some of the first people they thought of for Third Rock. So they helped us break out of the sketch jail.Michael Jamin:And did it feel like that? Why does it feel like a sketch jail? It seems fun to me. IBill Martin:Don't know. I think it's just that it took such a specific skillset to just crank out, joke, joke, joke, parody, parody, parody. I think it was just, it may not have been a bad thing. I think it was just because there weren't a lot of people who'd had a track record with it that they were desperate to find you. Yeah, I don't really know. It wasn't fair though.Michael Jamin:I'mBill Martin:Never going back to sketch jail.Michael Jamin:Right. So you don't want to do that ever again. You don't want to write sketches again.Bill Martin:Well, I guess there aren't really any sketch shows left. The sketch shows now I think you should leave is the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life, but it doesn't need me.Michael Jamin:But you don't have, in other words, that craving, we've never done it. I was like, well, I wonder what that been like. ButBill Martin:Yeah, sometimes the idea for a fun parody, it's still hits you every so often and there's just no place for parity other than that. So yeah, I do find myself saying, oh, that's a good idea. I hope Saturday Night Live does thatMichael Jamin:BecauseBill Martin:That's kind of the last game in town,Michael Jamin:But it's a whole new skillset that you had to learn. I mean, what was that jump like to go into scripted narrative to television?Bill Martin:Actually, it was pretty easy just because that's what we set out to do when I met Mike in film school in New York, and we were just cheers fanatics. And so we had written seven or eight sitcom specs before we got that job at a leaving color. So it was all we wanted to do it just that Keller was a job we could get.Michael Jamin:Right.Bill Martin:Interesting.Michael Jamin:We worked with the Stein Kelner who ran Cheers a couple of years. Oh yeah. To me that was so exciting to be, I don't know, because I love Cheers. Cheers was everything. That's why I wanted to be a sit car writer. It was so exciting to be able work. By the way,Bill Martin:Our cheer spec, the plot of it was was a John Henry man versus Machine Cliff Klavin racing a fax machine. That's how long ago it was. SoMichael Jamin:One of the wordsBill Martin:That was a legit idea.Michael Jamin:So he would deliver a letter faster than a fax machine could.Bill Martin:He claimed he could beat a faxMichael Jamin:Machine. That's funny.Bill Martin:The fax machine still took 18 seconds, but it was faster than Cliff.Michael Jamin:That's pretty funny. I like that idea. Oh, well. So then tell me your career. Honestly, you've so many shows way more than we have, so, so then you just jump after Third Rock. How many seasons were you there? You were four Seasons?Bill Martin:Five.Michael Jamin:Five until the end.Bill Martin:Yeah, halfway through our fifth season we left to create Grounded for Life, but it was all at the Car Seat Warner Company, so we didn't really say goodbye. We just moved one building over.Michael Jamin:Now it's so interesting because what was creating that life? Because back then, back then you might leave a hit show to create your own show. I'm not sure you'dBill Martin:Do that to Yeah, no, I think And we didn't know better. And because it was all part of Cari Warner, the risks were low. If it had failed, we could've gone back to Third Rock. I assumeMaybe It felt like we had a net, at least we weren't jumping ship completely. But because at that point, Cy Werner had five or six shows on networks. They owned network comedy, and we thought, and we pitched the show and it sold that, oh, this is easy. You just have an idea. And then Ly Warner puts it on tv. It's great. We were batting a thousand and in very short order, we were batting a hundred and then batting 50. And we realized we had a very skewed idea about how easy the business was at that point.Michael Jamin:And how did you come up with that idea? Walk me through the whole process of,Bill Martin:Well, Mike Schiff, my partner is a bit of a jerk. He's a curmudgeon, he's a grumpy guy, and he was itching to do something different. He didn't want to just do a multicam that hit all the same notes we'd already been hitting for a while. And we went out for lunch one day with our friend Chris Kelly, who ended up writing on the show, and Chris told us a story about taking his daughter to the CAMA dome and having to wait outside the ladies room down those stairs. And it turned into a really horrible, awkward situation. And the story was just hilarious. And we came back from lunch and Mike said, why can't we make a show? That's as much fun as hearing someone tell a great story. And that's kind of the genesis of Third Rock, which was, it was a hybrid back before, the word hybrid was kind of thrown around, but it was a show where you started in the middle, something had happened and someone would say, what's going on here? How did this happen? And you'd go back and tell the story in single Cam. And so it's just a way to make stories more fun to tell, and much, much harder to produce. It was a nightmare because we'd shoot three days of single cam and then two days for the audience. So everybody you worked on, it was gratified by it, but it was hell.Michael Jamin:But did you think about that when you came up with it? Because that would've been on my mind, do I really want to produce this show?Bill Martin:At the time, we thought it was going to be a breeze.Michael Jamin:WeBill Martin:Just didn't know any better. We were young and we'd never run a single cam show before. And the problem also was directors. It was interesting. A lot of Multicam directors had no problem doing the single cam stuff, but then we had single cam directors who were absolutely gobsmacked by the Multicam, the demands, the Multicam.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's veryBill Martin:Different. It almost killed some of them. DidMichael Jamin:You spend a lot of, how did you divide up time on set? Was it one of you guys on set at all times or what?Bill Martin:Yeah, we'd always thank God we were a partnership because someone would always be on the, we had 12 hour shooting days for the single cam, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And one of us would always be down there, and usually whatever writer had gotten their name on that episode. And then upstairs we were keeping the sausage factory.Michael Jamin:And while the other person's writing the scripts or rewriting whatever, let's say, let's say you're on the set and you come back, what's your involvement with those scripts? If you are not a hundred percent on board at that point, are you, how do you handle that?Bill Martin:Yeah, you're in a partnership that's kind of, if you don't have a lot of trust in the other person, I mean, it could be a disaster. I've heard stories about shows, I don't name them, where the creator would spend the whole day on the set and then come into the writer's room at nine o'clock at night and throw everything out, and you just can't do that. And we would have lots of disagreements, but we also, we still had table reads, so we still had a chance to try things out and fix them. At that point, a lot of single cams weren't even doing table reads. The production demands were so intense that you just had to kind of go with it. But we loved having table reads, nothing like hearing it once and getting that one day to take a whack at it. And we also had hiatus weeks, unlike a lot of single cans. So we do three, but then we'd have a week to decompress and reload, and that made it a lot more doable.Michael Jamin:And how many episodes were you doing in a season? Most of the timeBill Martin:It was crazy. We got a 13 order, but then they asked for six more and then we got a full order. But then Fox canceled us in the middle of the third season. But WB picked us up and added more episodes. So we kind of had this weird staggered thing where it could be as few as 18 as many as 21. And it was crazy.Michael Jamin:I remember back, I haven't done multi-camera in a while, but we were on these multi-camera shows. That's not really true. I did one kind of recently, but towards the end of that long season, if it was like you're up to 20 episodes, you're just exhausted, man, and you're like, oh, how am I going to do another one? But we never ran one. And I think the amount of stress on a showrunner for that, that must've been something else for you guys.Bill Martin:Yeah, it was a lot. But you know what I got to say? The stress of working on a show where the cast is difficult, even if the writing is easy, is much, much more stressful than a show where the cast is great, but the writing is hard. And that's the thing is that for me, I get stressed out, but if I go to stage and the people there are good and they appreciate what you're doing, the stress is always, you can always maintain. Right. It's when you get called to the stage and it's going to be a nightmare and someone's mad, then that's when the stress boils over.Michael Jamin:Right. Because then you've got to do a giant rewrite and there's no time for it. Yeah. Yeah.Bill Martin:We've been pretty lucky on that front. And this was Donor Logan, Kevin Corrigan and Megan Price. They were just great actors and pros and we're thrilled to be there. And if something was wrong, they trusted us. And if something wasn't working, we trusted them. So despite the fact that the workload was grim, it never destroyed us.Michael Jamin:Some people don't realize that. Sometimes you'll get an actor on a show who, who's not that happy to be there, even though you're paying them and they auditioned or whatever, got an offer, they're not happy to be there. So it's odd, but okay. And then Caveman, which is based, that was based on a giant hit commercial, right?Bill Martin:It was a hit commercial and it was a hit show. It was just one of those shows that just America embraced. They loved it. And I think it went five seasons.Michael Jamin:I got to check the numbers there.Bill Martin:I can see your face going, wait, does he?Michael Jamin:I got the wrong show. I'm turning Red.Bill Martin:Oh, yeah.Michael Jamin:But that must've been hard because you guys developed that as well, right?Bill Martin:We did not, actually, that was one where the original directors and the writer of the original commercials developed it, and the studio felt they needed some experienced hands to come in and help. So we were actually brought in during the pilot after it was already mostly cast and on the way to production. So it was kind of a runaway train at that point.Michael Jamin:See, I love hearing stories when other writers were being tortured.Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:That's what I'm getting at. Yes. So is that what Yeah,Bill Martin:It was torture. And the weird thing was it wasn't, first of all, it wasn't a bad idea, it just that because it was perceived as such a cynical idea, the knives were sharpened for it. So I don't think any of us realized how ready critics would be to hate something that was based on a commercial, because that said, the creative people behind it were all fun and interesting and good. We ended up being friends with all the guys. It wasn't a bad creative situation other than it was a fool's errand. We were being sent into the Lion Stand, and once it got into production, a single cam show with a certain, the visual stylists of the show, the guys who did the commercials really wanted to be sleek and clean and neat looking and modern, like the commercials. And that was a high bar to reach. But add to that, that every single cast member had to be in makeup for four hours before they could shoot. I mean, literally by the end of the second episode, their faces were chafed and red and they were in agony, and they were upset and met. And these were good professional actors. Like Nick Kroll, wonderful, but you can only torture a man's face so many days in a row before they go, oh my God, what's happening? So it was almost reproducible.Michael Jamin:But that's interesting. You said, I think you're exactly right. There's something, it was already labeled with a cynicism of like, oh, okay, it's based on a commercial and therefore it can't be any good. But did you know that when you signed up, could you even possibly have thought about that when you got on board?Bill Martin:Well, when we got on board, we just got an overall deal with A, B, C. So we were assignable to this, and we thought, this is insane. We love the commercials budget, anybody, but there's no way they're going to put this on. Okay. So we thought it was just like, we'll help out a pilot, meet some new people, and then we'll do something else. It was shocking to us that they put it on tv.Michael Jamin:Oh, how interesting.Bill Martin:Because it just seems so unlikely, but with anything you do, you know how it is. Once you're given your assignment, you've got to find a way to take pride in it. You can't blow it off. So we dug in and the pilot had some issues, and the first episode that we ran, we kind of got into shape. It wasn't quite there. And then suddenly the third episode, I said, okay, that's funny. We figured out, and in no small part, Nick Kroll was a secret weapon, but by the time we figured out on episode three how we could make a show that we could be somewhat proud of, after the first episode aired, we were already dead. We were summarily executed, but go to YouTube and watch some of the later episodes of Caveman, which are still illegally out there. And it's actually a pretty funny show, and it's got a great cast. I'm not sure Steve McPherson was in his right mind when he picked it up.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. I mean, you're absolutely right. No matter what show you're working on, you're going to find something that you love about it. You'll take pride and you'll lean into that. But yeah, you're right, because we did an animated show and for some reason they decided to put a laugh track on the first episode. And I remember yelling, why wouldn't there be a laugh track on an animated who exactly is laughing? Are we going to see the other animated characters in the audience who's laughing and lost that fight? For sure. And we got raked over the coals justifiably. So once you had that stink on you,Bill Martin:Yeah, yeah.Michael Jamin:We fought it. You can't fight. You can't win every fight. What are you going to do?Bill Martin:I don't think you can win any fight, can you?Michael Jamin:I wouldn't know what that's like.We did a show, oh my God. We did a show that was very low budget, and we had a slow mall budget for food. And so I sent the PA to go to the Whole Foods and get me these yogurts that I like that has the fruit on the side. It was a hundred dollars, whatever, just get some yogurt. And we submitted it in, and then we got yelled at by the studio saying, why is this bill from Whole Foods? And I remember saying, well, whatever, it's a hundred dollars. Does it matter where we spend it? And they go, yeah.Bill Martin:Oh no,Michael Jamin:You're not. A Whole Foods kind of show.Bill Martin:This is a Ralph's show.Michael Jamin:This is the Vaughn's Show. Yeah, that was So, yeah, you don't even win that fight, but maybe you wouldn't morph. I don't know. You must be able to win some fights.Bill Martin:Well, it's also one of the things, I think because I'm not an aggressive person, I always start every show with, I'm so lucky to have this. How lucky I got a parking space and a computer. I get to make a TV show. And sometimes I don't realize until I'm doing something I hate, I'll go like, oh, shit, I should have this. Didn't have to be this way.Michael Jamin:SoBill Martin:I think as we've gotten older, we've gotten crunchier, and we'll be a little more blunt about things, but certainly early on it was just like, pinch me. I can't believe you guys are letting me drive the car here. It'sMichael Jamin:Great. Yeah. But that's a big jump because was the first show you ran, was it grounded for Life?Bill Martin:No, the first show we ran was actually House of Bugging because of some weird politics. The showrunners got fired and we got bumped upstairs out of nowhere, and we were in our twenties and didn't know what we were doing, but we were already in Queens and they needed someone to,Michael Jamin:You were in Queens?Bill Martin:Yeah, we were the only ones in QueensMichael Jamin:WhoBill Martin:Could possibly do this job. So when we came back to do Third Rock, we had artificially inflated titles because we'd run House of Buggin. But then during the second season of Third Rock, the Turners tapped us to take over for them. Oh,Michael Jamin:I didn't even know that. I'm sorry. I didn't know that. Was that scary for you running?Bill Martin:You know what? It wasn't because it was the happiest place on earth and curtained. I mean, I hate to be Mr. Aw Shucks show business so fun. But that cast made work such a joy that there was no way it go wrong. Had an amazing writing staff, and the actors were delightful. It felt weirdly easy to do. I mean, we were stressed because we knew that we were being handed a baby and the baby was successful and 20 million people watching the baby every week. So there was certainly some pressure on us, but at the same time, we knew we could do it. And we knew that everybody had our backs with a very nice familial situation.Michael Jamin:It really was. I mean, that show really was, it was a big show. It was one of the shows everyone talked about if you were trying to break into show business, you had a spec for that show. It was a big responsibility. It was an honor to get tapped.Bill Martin:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Everyone loved that. Yep. Then, okay, what shows should we talk about more? I don't know. What shows do you want to talk? They're all great. I dunno. Tell me some experiences that you've had. I don't want to go one by one, there's too many.Bill Martin:Yeah. Well, so far the ones you've skipped are good ones to skip. You steer running into caveman, but that's fine.Michael Jamin:I did.Bill Martin:I guess really for me, shows are divided up into the shows we ran and the shows you worked on. And typically, if you're not running a show, there are creative frustrations that you feel because you wish things were different. That said one of the most fantastic experiences of our career was working on trial and error because Jeff Astro of the showrunner and he'd worked for us. So we kind of had that, you got to listen to us a little bit, Jeff, and we helped get John Liko to agree to do it. And at that point, we'd been on a few Multicam that weren't great, and this was a real interesting single cam, fake doc with John, and he was super serialized, like a true crime series. And that was just a blast. And I'm still very proud of that season. We did not work on the second season. They sent it to Canada and shaved off half the staff and it killed Jeff Astro.Michael Jamin:Really? When you say,Bill Martin:Well, was Christian Chen, it was still a great season, but it was not as easy. It was kind of Warner Brothers was trying to cut every corner they could on it. SoMichael Jamin:When you say killed them, they overworked him and cut the staff. Yeah, yeah. People don't realize that I think be brutal. And then of course, the Unicorn, which went two seasons, and that's a big deal. That's really, when I think about it now, it's actually quite a big deal that you got your own show on a network these days when they pick up two shows a year, maybe it's nothing.Bill Martin:No, that was really threading a needle there because we had pitched it all over the place, and it's based on a true story, based on a friend of ours who went through this awful situation where he lost his wife when his kids were young. And we finally sold it c v s on the last day of selling anything. It was like October and Julie Per Worth calls the last second and said, we want to do it. We went, oh, no fucking way. So I mean, it was something that was both a passion project and just endless sadness for us. And so we started doing it and it went back and forth single multi, single, multi. We're trying to find the right guy to play the guy. And we knew, we'd always said, this is a single cam and it's going to be serialized and it should probably be on a streamer because that was when streamers seemed like the promised land, but c b s one, even though their forte was malteses. But then we met Walton Goggins who only came in because one of our producers is Peyton Reed, who's an old college friend of ours, and the guy who inspired the show and he'd worked with Walton on Antman. And so Walton trusted him and he came in for a meeting and Walton is just the greatest guy.Michael Jamin:SoBill Martin:He saw this, he found he had a personal identification with the guy, and once he jumped in, he said, I'll do it. I mean, it's going to be single, obviously, but I'm in. And David Nevins and everybody at CCBs were so thrilled that Walton Goggins wanted to do a sitcom that's like suddenly we were fast tracked and it was all the way onto television.Michael Jamin:Wow. Did you pitch it cool with the title The Unicorn? Because I was like, that's a smart title. I would think that, yeah,Bill Martin:It's funny. It did. And Mike Schiff never liked it.Michael Jamin:Oh really?Bill Martin:By the way, Mike's usually right, and I'm wrong about stuff, but I do like to Lord it over him. I assume he's going to listen to this. He didn't care for it. But it's one of those things, once it leaked out, people said, oh my God, oh my God, that's perfect. And the fact was it had to happened to coincide with a time when unicorns were everywhere. Unicorn kitty pools. And it was the unicorn moment anyway. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah. I remember hearing about it. It was like, ah, damn, I'm surprised you said it took so long to sell. Like damn it, that one sells right away. That's an idea that sells. SoBill Martin:It's interesting.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Bill Martin:We didn't make up the title. It's whatMichael Jamin:I know.Bill Martin:Guys like Grady are known as on Tinder. They check all these magical boxes for what a perfect guy should be.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. That's such a great, and then after that, the neighborhood which you jumped in, it had already been running for, no, tell me if I'm wrong.Bill Martin:Yes, it had, here's my vindictive tale of revenge. It's not vindictive at all by the way, but we had a pilot with Cedric. We had run his show, the Soul Man on TV Land for a couple of years.Great guy. We had a great time there. And when that ended, he said, let's do another show together. So we pitched out a show that it was his idea and his manager, Eric's idea, to do a show where he's a fire chief. So we pitched it and c b s bought it. We wrote it, it was a single cam, was kind of gritty because we wanted to do something that was hard to produce as usual. And at the end of the day, they didn't want to pick it up. But we were producing with Eric Kaplan, I should me, Aaron Kaplan. And Aaron quickly plucked Cedric out of our pilot and put him in the neighborhood, which was his other pilot. So we were basically just for him, a Cedric delivery system.So we weren't bitter because we knew Jim Reynolds. He's a great guy. And we were happy for everybody except that shit. And there goes our pilot. But it's funny, when we were producing the Unicorn, we were in the neighborhood's offices. It just happened to be that we were having the same line producer, pat Kinlin, who had done Third Rock with us. And Jim was in the midst of the first season of the neighborhood. And it was hard because first seasons are hard. And he was like, oh my God, this is killing me. And I jokingly said, don't worry when you get fired season three, we'll come in and take over. And it seemed hilarious at the time. And what do you know? It happens. And to Jim's credit, he did think it was funny that my smart ass remark had come full circle.Michael Jamin:And what was it like stepping into the show that wasn't yours? I mean, you've, not that you've done it before, but stillBill Martin:It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. And we came in with a whole new people. The feeling was clean slate, let's reboot this. And we had heard from Pat Kinlin the producer, you're going to love it here. It's the happiest set since Third Rock. And I was like going, yeah, yeah, yeah, nice try. But it kind of was, the cast had jelled and the crew was cool, and it was a very happy place. I mean, there had been issues, but we pretty quickly felt at home there. It was nice. And that's why we would love to stay there as long as possible.Michael Jamin:Maybe you will. I mean, well, we'll see what happens to the strike, but maybe you will. I mean, it seems like now they're giving shows a longer, tell me if I'm wrong, networks are giving shows a longer chance because it's too risky almost to not.Bill Martin:Yeah. Yeah. And I think for c b s shows built around someone that people love, said it's hard to recreate that when you have someone who's that warm and magnetic at the center of a show. You're halfway there already and the show is steadily. I mean, obviously all audiences are declining and atomizing all over the place, but it feels like the numbers have defied gravity a little.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.What's it like now? Because one of the biggest things, you've obviously staffed a million shows and you got to read specs from, you must stick through a pile of specs every season when you're doing this. What are you looking for in new writers?Bill Martin:Yeah, it's funny. For the last 10 years or so, you only read pilots because there aren't any spec shows to write anymore because there aren't any water cooler shows that everybody knows.So I mean, it used to be, and I kind of like it because someone could write a good per enthusiasm that sounded right and had the rhythms, but it might not mean they were capable of a lot of things. It just meant they had created a good version of this very specific thing. Pilots, the writer's whole personality comes out. And I think it's nice to you get a peek into how weird someone is, and we just want people who are different and weird, and you want that array of points of view to be very, you don't want eight Mike Schiffs lock, Lord, help us. And I think it's really just if someone catches you off guard with something you didn't expect to be funny. And people who just write characters, the one thing I hate more than anything, and if your spec starts with single people in an apartment talking about sex, I'm not going to read page two. It's like there's thousands of them, and it's very hard to get anything out of that.Michael Jamin:That's interesting. I've said the opposite. I've said to me, it's easier to read a speck of an existing show. I know the characters, I might know the characters, and it's easier for me to see do they get the voice. But if it's a pilot, it'sBill Martin:Easier. That's the key, Michael. It's too easy.Michael Jamin:But if it's a pilot,Bill Martin:Someone's,Michael Jamin:It's hard for me. Don't make me do more work. If I'm reading, that's the problem. If I'm reading an original pilot sometimes, okay, first I have to remember with the characters, okay, who's this character? What's their relationship? And then I'm like, okay, what's the tone here? It's hard for me to, are they trying to be big or is this just bad writing? You have to figure that out too. No, you're more of thatBill Martin:Mind. It's more work to read a pilot. It is, but I think when someone pops out of a pile, it's a bigger pop when they've created something entertaining whole cloth.Michael Jamin:Right. Well, that's true. That's true. AndBill Martin:Also for Multicam, s, jokes matter, but for single cams, you need a couple of people who write jokes. But also then it's a lot about story and character. And I think it's harder to get that from sitcom specs. It's easier to get that from something that's personal to somebody.Michael Jamin:Do you have a preference as to what you want a single or multi?Bill Martin:The artist in me wants to do single. The person who has to wake up and go to work and then get home and be happy, likes multi,Michael Jamin:But the Multicam, the hours are worse,Bill Martin:Is so great.Michael Jamin:Wait, multi. If you're doing a rewrite on a multi-camera after a network run through, you might be there at all midnight or whatever.Bill Martin:Never.Michael Jamin:Never. You always have good,Bill Martin:Well, no, by the way, yes, you're right. But on the neighborhood, I don't think we had dinner three or four times. There is, and that's not because we're so fantastic. It's because the show works. If a Multicam works, the hours are great. If a Multicam doesn't work, then you're right. If the run through is so bad that you're reworking the story. And we've been there too, and we had even Third Rock early on, we had some late nights. But in the ideal world, when a Multicam is working, it's the best job in the world, and Sedric knows what he wants. He's also approving the stories. He's approving the pitches early on. So we're not taking something to the table that he's not invested in. So I think, and if he were an ogre or had bad taste, it would be terrible. But the combination of him trusting us and us trusting him has made it a really sweet gig.Michael Jamin:So you'll pitch him, okay, I'm curious how it works. You'll start breaking a story. You won't get too far. Maybe you'll have some act breaks and then you'll bring it to Cedric. But you won't do more than that. You won't do more work than that. Right.Bill Martin:You never know when he'll say, and sometimes he does that thing too, where he'll go like, no, I don't know about that. How about that? Instead like, oh, okay, that fine. That's easy to do. He's great at having that natural story sense of what his character would do.Michael Jamin:Now, did you ever pitch him or anybody else? This is my fear. You pitch them, here's a great story idea for you. And they go, oh yeah, they love it. And then you go take it to the room and you go, I don't know how to break this.Bill Martin:Yes,Michael Jamin:I thought I know how to break it, but I don't how to break it.Bill Martin:That is what I would do if I didn't have a super anal partner. But Mike, and we know we still have those times, but once I have an idea, I'm good to go, Hey, look at this great idea. Let's go. But Mike's only like, I need to stare this for a day. So we say we give Cedric ideas early in the process, but the fact is we send them through the ship Aron 8,000 beforeMichael Jamin:TheBill Martin:Upgrade, they get out of the room.Michael Jamin:And so I'm just curious. So it's a couple of you may spend, let's say two or three days on a story idea and then bring it to him.Bill Martin:Yeah. I mean, some are easy, some are one day, some we will break five different times and still get it wrong. And the six time will do it. I mean, we work hard and Lord knows when we go back into production and we're going to have a three minute pre-production period, we're going to be fucked. But last season we had eight weeks. It was plenty of time to find our rhythm there,Michael Jamin:Right then. Okay. Then after that, you still got a picture to the studio and then the network, and they can still say no or to you saying, well, Cedric really likes this.Bill Martin:Yes, we do. And the thing is, it's not just Cedric, it's also Wendy Trilling who used to be the head of CCB ss. And she is cool, and she's smart, and she's not afraid to hurt our feelings, which I love about her Eted, her trust her. So in a weird way, by the time the network sees it, they know Wendy likes it. And if Wendy and Cedric like it, they tend to say, in fact, at a certain point, we said, can we stop doing outlines and go, we have a very detailed story document. Can we just go to script? And they'll say, okay. So that also helped us that they would trust that process.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's actually, it's a big advantage that Wendy's producer in the show because yeah, she knows what the network wants. They trust her. And so it's almost like it almost removes an obstacle in the future. You get it out of the way. Now that's interesting.Bill Martin:And also, it's something that we want to do, and Wendy has signed off on it. It's like, we don't have to be dick's. We can say, I know, but let's see it on its feet because everybody over here likes it. It usually works for us.Michael Jamin:And are they bringing audiences back now? How does it work?Bill Martin:They started to, the problem we had last year was they did the whole season before we got there, block and shoot, because they had no choice. And it frankly made everybody a little relaxed because it was very easy lifestyle. And the fact is, when you have an audience that's basically crew and extras, it's easy to not go hard for the laughs on the other side when you have Tashina Arnold and Cedric, the Entertainer, and Max and Beth, these are people who swing for the fence every time. So I honestly don't think you can tell they weren't doing it for audience because they're selling it so hard in a great way. So last season we still did block blockage shoot, and we kept saying, the audience is going to be back any second. We're about to go back to audiences. But it was working. WhatMichael Jamin:Do you do? So now that you're on strike, what is it like for you now on strike when you don't have these creative muscles to flex? What, are you craving anything? Or are you doing anything on the side, a novel or something?Bill Martin:No, I mean, I think me and Mike are revisiting things that we had to put aside and doing brain work on them, because we don't want to waste this time completely. But early on, early on, it had been a long time since we had an off season where we knew we had a job to go back to. Third Rock was like that, and Grounded was like that. But it's been years since we had a non panicky off season. And this finally, we had a pickup. This was like, ah, I'm going to go on vacation, A real vacation. And that vacation turned into the strike, but I was like going, it's a strike, but still, we're going back. It's September. And it just gradually dawned on me like, oh, this is really hurting the show. So I've kind of been in denial that I needed to worry.I mean, all signs are that when the strike is over at whatever, we are going to go back to work. And people still want the show, and Cedric's still ready to go, but it takes some of the fun out of it, obviously. And I shouldn't be complaining because we're still in such an ideal position. The last strike, we had to walk off the set on cavemen and let other people edit the show and completely divorce ourselves from that. We've been killing ourselves on and getting force majeure out of a deal. I mean, it just destroyed our career completely. This is a much less terrifying strike, even though it's plenty terrifying.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting because howBill Martin:About you? I mean, are you able to function creatively? Are youMichael Jamin:Retaining yourBill Martin:Wife?Michael Jamin:No. Well, I have definitely both, but I have a book that I'm writing on the side, so that's my little passion project that keeps me entertained writing and performing it. But in terms of, it's interesting that you still panic about that next job. And for me, it feels like, wow, I guess I stopped panicking a long time ago. I don't know why, but you're so successful and you always get that next job and don't know.Bill Martin:That's how it looks. I'm looks,Michael Jamin:I'm looking at your I M D V page. It definitely looks that way,Bill Martin:Yes. But it's a lot of times where we were falling off the building and grabbed onto the ledge with our fingernails, and we took a lot of jobs that were under our quote just to keep working. We've had our feast and famine. Certainly I M D B looks chock full of stuff, butMichael Jamin:We've taken jobs who always, I mean, plenty of jobs under our quote. I mean, it's just like, while it's that unemployment, so you take the job, yeah.Bill Martin:After you take three jobs in a row under your quote, it's no longer a quote.Michael Jamin:Well, I remember on that first one, I was like, we have a quote. We have no anonymous quotes anymore, so why is it a quote? What's going on here? But yeah, it's so interesting that you still have that feeling looking at, for me, from where I stand, wow, the grass is really green where UI guys are. So it's interesting. Well,Bill Martin:I hope I'm relaxing now. I finally got my kids out of college, so this was my first year without tuition payments.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Bill Martin:In 25.Michael Jamin:What are they going to do now? Are they going to get in Hollywood in theBill Martin:Business? Nope. Nope. None of them are interested. I mean, one of them in particular certainly should be, he's hilarious. But the thought of putting himself out there creatively in a business that has no easy way in anymore, I think he just is very happy to be a barista, not put himself out there because it's nerve wracking. And I get it.Michael Jamin:How do you see most people, the new people that you're working with, the young kids, how are they breaking in then?Bill Martin:Yeah, I don't know. That's the scary thing about this tipping point we're at right now is when I hear stories about young writers who make a year out of four mini rooms on shows that they've even heard of. I mean, the fact is that the business has become so diffuse that those clear paths, pa, writer, assistant writer's room, job, those are so few and far between now. I can't figure it out. People aren't going through these main arteries. They're going through these weird tiny capillaries to weird things.Michael Jamin:Right?Bill Martin:Pretty good analogy.Michael Jamin:I love it. You should be a doctor. But don't ask, would they show up? I mean, you have a staff and you don't ask 'em where the script has somehow got on your desk to an agent or a manager, and you're like, okay, you're hired, basically.Bill Martin:But the thing is, on the neighborhood, it's quite a few standups,And it's a few people that we know and trust from years of working with them and a couple of young people who were writer assistants who are knocking on doors. But it's funny because we had so many people in place, it wasn't like we were out beating the bushes for new voices that were coming out of nowhere. But I'm sure that's true in a lot of places. It's just that when you're at a C B S studio show that's already running, it's kind of like that old fashioned machinery that's feeding you. These writers is already there.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting because I don't know, I'm not sure how people are doing it. We gave a talk at, I think at L M U, and there's a young woman, and she just made a hit podcast, and then that got her discovered. It was like a scripted podcast. I was like, oh, tell me about that. Interesting. So do you have advice then for people listening, words,Bill Martin:Encouragement? Last night, I was giving advice to this year's crop of interns from the U N C Chapel Hill, which is where I went to college. In fact, look, there it is. And I had to apologize because I said, look, here's the traditional way in. If you want to get in the writer's room, become a pa. And I also admit that that way of getting into the business may disappear. And if you have other creative outlet, if you can do a great podcast, if you put stuff up on YouTube or you have TikTok, there's a lot of ways to express your comic voice that aren't writing sitcom specs and waiting for your turn in the writer's room as a dinosaur. I'm not really the perfect person to ask,Michael Jamin:But I think you're right. It's about put the creative energy out there, stop begging for work, start making your own opportunities, and probably good things. Good things may come your way, I guess. Right?Bill Martin:Hopefully. And I also would like to think as the strike goes on, people will periodically say, why doesn't someone do what Charlie Chaplin did? Do United Artists start a creator, talent driven production? And I do feel like when I listen to a great podcast like Valley Heat, which we were talking about before we went on, you realize there are ways to create an entire world for a show for no money. And in my mind, valley Heat, everyone should listen to this thing.Michael Jamin:Yeah, listen to it. TheyBill Martin:Should just take that, put it on camera, it's ready to go. I mean, it's a show that is fully developed that no one owns a piece of. And I guess that would be what my hope is, that if we don't like working within the system with these jerks, if you're young and have that energy, make something. Yeah. And who knows? I mean,Michael Jamin:See, we agree on that. We didn't agree on spec versus original pilots, but we agree on this.Bill Martin:That turned into a pretty ugly fight.Michael Jamin:It was contentious.Bill Martin:But that's the kind of heat that I think gets these podcasts to catch on.Michael Jamin:I think so. But also as you're learning your craft, you're getting better at it. And I don't know. I see it happening. I see people making a name for themselves. I was on the picket line, I think it was at Disney, and I ran into this guy. He was on my podcast, and he recognized me, and he was a joke writer on Kimmo. I go, how did you get that job? He goes, well, I was just tweeting Day and Jokes. I like doing it. And after about a year or two, they found me and they hired me. Good for you. But he was putting the work out. He was doing the work and getting better, and that's how he got hired. SoBill Martin:GoodMichael Jamin:For him.Bill Martin:And it's been, I guess, shit, my dad says was the original tweet becomes a show, andMichael Jamin:We all rolled eyesBill Martin:That from the caveman syndrome of cynicism about how are you tuning it Twitter into a show? But if you're funny, people will find you.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But like I said, I remember that happening, really? Is this how it works now? But they were just at the forefront and yeah, that's how it works now.Bill Martin:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Damn right. I'm always late to the trend. So Interesting. And I guess before I wrap up, what is it like for you working? People want to know, working with a writing partner, how does that dynamic work with you guys?Bill Martin:Well, there aren't a lot of writing partnerships that last this long. I mean, you guys and Al and Krinsky, there's a few. And I think for me, it's having that yin yang thing. I'm not a worrier, I'm not detail oriented. I don't tend to stress out, and Mike does, and I only really want to do half the job of running a show. Luckily, he can do the other half. So I mean, I think a lot of partnerships are based on people having the same sense of humor and just getting along, and that's great. But for me and Mike, we don't actually get along all that great, but we do agree on what's funny and we respect each other and it makes the job doable.Michael Jamin:Wait, you said you don't get along that great?Bill Martin:Well, we get along great, but I mean, one of us is a drunk pot smoking redneck from Florida who doesn't give a shit. And the other's an incredibly neurotic, buttoned up Jewish guy from the priest side. The only thing we have in common is Cheers and Albert Brooks.Michael Jamin:But you met in school, right? In film school,Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:Right.Bill Martin:Yeah. We just met because he was the only person in our writing class first year who I thought was funny. And so we just kind of found each other because we're the two guys writing comedy in that big screenwriting workshop.Michael Jamin:And you leapt into each other's arms. Yeah.Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. But it is so funny when you said about it, you only want to do half the job of a showrunner. Yeah, it's a lot of work. It's a big job. That's something my partner and I say all the time, I don't really want to make this decision. Can you make it? It's a lot of work.Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:And a lot of times we'll punt it to even a hair and makeup. Well, what do you guys think? All right. You guys seem to got a good handle on what the wardrobe should be that you do it. Yeah. SoBill Martin:Interesting. I'm always very happy to let someone else do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Bill Martin:We do take turns firing people. That's the one awful, horrible thing. We haven't done it a lot. But the last guyMichael Jamin:Are talking about writers or other people.Bill Martin:Anything. Anybody. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Because when we were on set on a single camera show, if one of us has to run onto the stage to give the actor a note or the director a note, it's always like, you do it. You do it. I don't want to, how many times am I going to go on set and tell them they're doing it wrong? Can't you tell them they're doing it wrong? I don't want to be that guy all the time. Yeah.Bill Martin:We had a great run for several years where whenever we would get a pickup, I'd be on stage and get to announce it, and every timeMichael Jamin:We Good news gotBill Martin:Our order cut, Mike would be on stage and it was hilarious. I was the hero with the, and it was killing him. It was happening over and over again, just by God smiling onMichael Jamin:Me. Oh, that's so funny. That's freaking great. We did an episode, I think it was Andrew shoot me, we're writing a script and I was adamant that this joke was going to work, and Seever it was like, I don't even get it right. And I'm like, no, this joke is great. You have no idea what you're talking about. And so we take the descrip, I guess it got to the table somehow, and at the table we hit this joke, nothing, and the room's just silent. And I just start busting out laughing. I was like, oh my God, I can't believe how wrong I was. And I'm laughing at her wrong. And then afterwards, everyone's looking at Seabert. They're like, assuming it's his joke because I'm laughing at him and now I'm laughing even more pushing him under the bus. But yeah, there's that. But yeah, there's always, I guess I feel like maybe you feel the same way. If he comes up with a line, great. That's one last line I got to come up with. You know what I'm saying? It's mine now. Anyway, so yeah,Bill Martin:For me, the great thing about writing teams is, well, you're a single writer. You turn on a draft. When a team turns in a draft, it's a third draft because you've already fought it and it just makes things better. I mean, everybody has their partners. It just may not be there, someone they write with, but when you take it to the table or you take it to the writer's room, everyone's going to get a whack at it anyway. But for me, I think it just makes that initial idea, everything has to kind of, you beat things back and forth and you find 'em out and you end up with better drafts.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I totally agree. I always see that with writing teams. Their scripts just tend to be a little tighter. Just somehow they're a little tighter. They've already fought it, fought over it. So yeah. That's interesting. Well, bill Martin, thank you so much for doing this. This is a real pleasure. Honestly, it is an honor to have you on this and talk about your experience as a showrunner and a creator of really great television and yeah, it really is an honor. Thank you.Bill Martin:This has been great for my self-esteem. I don't normally talk about myself a lot, but man, I come off great.Michael Jamin:You certainly do. I'll fix that in editing. I'll ask these questions then put a long dead pause before you answer. People are like, what's wrong with this guy? Why is he taking so long to answer? But thank you again so much. Anything you want to promote or plug other than your shows orBill Martin:Watch Season six of the Neighborhood when it comes on sometime in 2024? Yes.Michael Jamin:Hopefully that's sad. Yeah, that is sad. Well, thank you again so much. Alright, everyone, another great episode. I have to say of my podcast screenwriters, need to hear this. Keep following me and keep writing more. Good stuff coming. Thank you. Again,Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five-star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music, by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing. I.

This episode is all about gut health and healing!! Meet Bridgitte, the founder and CEO of Gut Personal.  MS, RDN, all the things, and has been studying functional medicine and nutrition for over a decade.  She had been struggling with her own gut issues and decided to take matters into her own hands and now helps women like me in the process through these amazing supplements that I use every day.This company is female founded and funded and OPERATED!! She's such an amazing person, listening to her story is amazing, seeing her in person is always uplifting.  She is just SUCH a light - CANNOT WAIT for you all to hear this episode.Self Love Tip:

Welcome to part 2 of Josephine Baker! Because her life is SO INTERESTING, we decided to extend it into three parts. In this episode, we will talk about her movie career; her opera performances; her time with the Ziegfeld Follies; her career as a French Resistance fighter; and how she travelled around town in a carriage drawn by an ostrich. Fake Counts with fake monocles; undercover spies in Portugal; Cheetahs named Chiquita: this episode has it all. Grab your Bouillon cubes and a stiff Martini, and settle in for what may be our most interesting Harlot yet!

Melissa Smith on The Kate Dalley Show What is ScoPex and How Eugenics Fits In! So Interesting!

  Check out Jette's new non-profit ilo on the website - and sign up to receive her wonderful newsletter. And sign up for your new period subscription here, from just €5.70 a month. You can follow Jette on Instagram here and check out her website while you're at it. From Buzzfeed: how millennials became the burnout generation. SO INTERESTING. ***   If you're buying from Amazon, I would really appreciate it if you'd use my affiliate link. It helps support what I do and costs you nothing extra! Same goes for Asos...    AND if you're super generous, support me on Patreon! It's basically a type of crowd-funding site that allows you to put your money where your "likes" are; if you like the content I'm making, please consider giving a small amount ($1) every month to help fund it. (If you donate at the $6.66 per month level, you'll get an extra How to be Sound minisode over on Patreon for your listening pleasure.) This month, half of all Patreon earnings will go to ilo. (The other half will go to pay my producer!)   I've also started a How to be Sound book club; we meet every few months, there's tea and coffee, we chat about books and Blindboy and other things that come up and it's fun! It's open to all patrons, at whatever level ($1 and up).   You can follow me on all of my social media handles @rosemarymaccabe and you can even subscribe to my newsletter (my ideas are new and intriguing).   Thank you so much for listening to How to be Sound. Please take some time to rate and/or review on iTunes; it helps other people who might like it to find How to be Sound!   Producer extraordinaire Liam Geraghty's Meet Your Maker is also well worth a listen. His latest project is Petrified, a podcast drama with some very spooky undertones.   *These are affiliate links. If you click through and buy, I'll make a tiny percentage and love you forever xoxo See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

There are many different faces to minimalism.  There’s no benchmark to measure yourself against that would somehow “qualify” you as a minimalist.  It’s much more general than that and each person might apply the concept differently in your own life.   This episode is going to shed some light on why all that clutter, both mental and physical, might be holding you back, the benefits of minimalism, how to make it work for you (since it’s different for everyone) and auditing your life to see what can change. Minimalism can be GRADUAL- it doesn’t have to happen all at once!  Otherwise feels way too daunting and overwhelming, not to mention unattainable.   The biggest reason why I'm such a fan of minimalism is that to me, it equates to freedom.  Physical, financial, mental, emotional, it all plays a role and de-cluttering your life is various ways opens up space to so many other things.   DOES IT BRING YOU JOY? “The space in which we live should be for the person we are becoming now, not for the person we were in the past.” - Marie Kondo This is SO INTERESTING!  I loved this quote from Marie Kondo, because it can really help you hone in on why you're holding onto things that might no longer be serving you.   What are you holding onto that is to try and preserve a little piece of your former self?   What is it about that former version of yourself that you miss? Is that “stuff” really going to help you get back to that place? Do you even truly want to get back to that place? How is holding onto that former version of you holding you back from who you are becoming? This episode is going to give you the motivation you've been looking for to de-clutter your life in more ways than one. Plus, I'm running a mini 3-day challenge all about minimalism and de-cluttering your life over in the Room to Grow Podcast Facebook group! There are guest speakers coming in, a handy worksheet that is being released on Wednesday January 30th, and all kinds of tips and tricks to get started with introducing minimalism into your life.  And, invite a friend into the group to join you and keep you extra motivated to make some of the changes we're discussing!   REFERENCES The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up, by Marie Kondo Becoming Minimalist Room to Grow Podcast episode #07, Finding Your Why & Showing Up Authentically with Amie Tollefsrud of Rebelle Nutrition Room to Grow Podcast episode #17, Rest for Success and How to Manage Metabolism with Dr. Jade Teta Room to Grow Podcast episode #52, Money is a Tool, Time is the Prize   FIND EMILY Emily Gough Coaching Room to Grow Podcast info@emilygoughcoaching.com Instagram @emilygoughcoach Private Facebook Group: Room to Grow Podcast Facebook: @ Emily Gough Coaching   DON’T MISS… Want to chat more and do a deeper dive into this topic and get access to live videos, exclusive guest appearances and discussions?  The Room to Grow Podcast Facebook group is a judgement-free safe space to open up, and I’d love to welcome you in with the other amazing women in the group.  It’s the best place to go for a little extra support.  See you over there! You can also email me at info@emilygoughcoaching.com, or DM me over on Instagram @emilygoughcoach with any questions, comments, or takeaways!  Plus, I would absolutely love to connect with you and thank you for listening in real life.  It makes me day to see you listening to the podcast and fills me up with pure joy. Seriously.  See you on the ‘gram! Questions?  Comments?  If Instagram and Facebook aren’t your jam, send me a good old fashioned email!  info@emilygoughcoaching.com   Find full show notes including all resources mentioned in the episode at emilygoughcoaching.com/063 roomtogrowpodcast.com   New episodes every Tuesday and Thursday! 

Download this Episode Welcome back for another episode of re:Think Real Estate. On today's episode, we reach back to our second episode to review our predictions for the real estate market in 2018. We discuss where we were really right and where we were less right! We also talk about our predictions for the 2019 real estate market and what we believe will happen this year. This real estate podcast is about helping brokers and agents think about how their business is run. We discuss what is working for us in our business and how our businesses are growing. If you have any questions or topics that you would like answered on the show, please email chris@sellectrealty.com. re:Think Real Estate is the best real estate podcast to follow for real estate brokers and agents looking to build their business. Tune in weekly here or wherever your podcasts are found. We are on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, and more. Please leave us a review and let us know what you think. Episode Transcript: RTRE_Ep_45 Audio length 34:58 RTRE 45-2019 Predictions for the Real Estate Market [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. We're here early in 2019. I am here with Christian and Nate. Guys how are we doing? [Christian]: Hi, how is it going? [Chris]: Nate is silent. [Christian]: No Nate.  [Nathan]: Good good. [Chris]: Oh he's with us. He joins us today. Last time…so last week we talked a little bit about…shoot what did we talk about last week? [laughter] Did we like…So last week we talked about… [Nathan]: Do you remember? [Christian]: We just recorded it. [Chris]: Was it in the notes? [laughter]. Smart. Thinking smart. So last week we talked about what is it gonna take to sell a home in 2019. We used the “Think Smart” acronym and we mentioned that we were gonna talk about our second episode from when we launched the podcast which was our predictions for 2018. So we wanted to talk and see what came true and what didn't. So Nate we're gonna start with you. First off let's hear what you had to say in episode 2 of last year.  [Nathan]: I am scared.  “That's the market is gonna continue to grow. Unemployment is at an all-time low. Job creation is growing gradually. Braeden wrote about that. And so I don't think we're gonna see the housing market slide. I think we're gonna see it grow very fast.  In our market here in Columbus we had an all-time low in inventory. The new builts are…you can't build them fast enough so it's…it's gonna continue to grow. The challenge I think for real estate agents is how do you get your slice of the pie and how do you do that?  The other thing I think we're gonna see is more influences upon technology or AI, but we have do we have a balance of what we do as individuals and a balance of what that AI does for us as well.” [Chris]: Alright so Nate a lot of it was…for you was that it was gonna be continued market growth, that it was gonna be pretty…Value was gonna be of great importance. Providing that value for our clients and really working on improving the communication. Tech and AI, you…having that balance to assist. What do you think? [Nathan]: I think we're still there some. I think it's gonna evolve even more in the sense of I think there was a lot of playing if you would with tech and we saw like you said when we were talking. Kelly came up with KW and several other things. I think that what we're gonna see though is from all this tech people are gonna realize again we actually provide the most value.  Again I go back to how do we blend the 2. We saw a lot of companies come in a fury all trying to get their slice of the pie and 6 months later they were an afterthought, right. So I think that we realize there's a space for it right and that's good and I am OK with that but there's still a very large space for us and what we do which is awesome.  I don't think we're gonna have that…What's that Will Smith movie. IRobot or whatever you know where everything is that way. Right so…[laughter] but there should be a large…I don't want to say “curtailing” maybe is the word. But we're gonna see some of that dial back I think a bit. And you know you are already hearing depending of what circle you run in, about you know agent value and what agents provide. I find it comical. I am not picking on Kelly, but you all are late to the party. Now it's all about “OK great we had that”. Now it's going back to being agent centric almost right. So…Interesting that you know if you're talking about tech now than you're a little late. So… [Christian]: Sure. [Nathan]: So I think you need to be focused on what you do and what you provide to your clients.  [Chris]: So I think you are right. You know last year you said that there was gonna be a balance between using technology and the agent providing value.  [Nathan]: And we're finding that out. [Chris]: And I think that…I think that that's how the year worked out. There was…I think you had all these big announcements about tech but then kind of half way through the year I think it got fueled by that whole Facebook thing…is that when the huge data breach happened. I think that a lot of people started putting more focus on the relationship, on how they're interacting with the people. [Christian]: And I would say I think on the stuff that plays for tech…but I think kind of the sexiness of it is wearing off a little bit in the sense of I think it's a little bit of a tech and automation fatigue, you know, that the trends is going back to the basics of relationships and serving your clients. Whether that's tech of whether that's man also. [Chris]: Yeah I think people are finally realizing that they're not gonna push a button and that everything is gonna be done for them. Like you could push a button and they can send an email campaign and that helps but you gotta pick up the phone. You gotta talk to people and you gotta have that one to one connection so…Christian…Nate well done I think you were spot on. I think that your predictions for 2018 came true. What do you think Christian, you think he was right? [Christian]: Unfortunately, I think he was. No I think it's good. Yeah I think it was pretty spot on. [Chris]: Yeah you're guru level there Nate. Watch out don't let it happen again, you might think you're smart. [laughter] [Nathan]: You know I am gonna keep fooling people and sooner or later they're gonna be like “You're not fooling me anymore”. [laughter] [Chris]: Well done. Alright Christian let's hear what you had to say last year. [Christian]: “I think there's gonna continue to be that tension between what you'd call the discount model tech enabled and the traditional model. So as Nate said I think there's gonna be increased need for individual agents and brokerages to define themselves and provide value outside of just…just do real estate and “I am gonna give you a good experience””. [Chris]: Alright so you were talking a lot about the push back against the traditional real estate model. What do you think? You think that came through? [Christian]: I'd say for the most part. You know I mean the…the…what we're seen with the EXP you know virtual brokerage I mean they're…I think you're saying they like acquired or gathered 16.000 new agents last year. [Chris]: Yeah they're 16k. [Christian]: You know Compass, you know, they're kind of a hybrid as far as, you know, they're not franchised but they're definitely pushing the tech in the marketing and doing things differently. They're, you know, growing like…like wild fire, wild flowers. I don't know. They're growing, they're doing good. [Chris]: You're out in the west coast you should know what a wild fire is.  [Christian]: Yeah that's true [laughter]. And you know I think we've seen, you know, big…the big growth in the indie brokerage you know scene. The rise of indie brokerages as far as people wanting to get a better consumer experience and a company and agents that are invested in the community and you know just totally gets a…you know what's kind of in the local marketing and stuff. And you know to see Zillow you know we're getting into their iByer thing and you know doubling down in the consumer. Advocating for consumers and that's their main focus and you know there's been a lot of hub hub, you know, a bunch of murmuring in the real estate space with you know “Is Zillow alienating their premiere agents or is what they're doing working of bettering stuff?”.  I mean they're willing to and have enough of market share. You know they're a brokerage, you know. they make clients as agents but they're willing to mix it up in order to continue pushing the bounds of what the consumer wants. What's best for them as opposed to the traditional franchise which isn't interested in that at all. They're interested in maintaining a status quo. And I think you're seeing they are losing market share because of it. [Chris]: Yeah. Yeah I agree with you there. We saw pretty much a lot of franchise agents move to the EXP model because you know they're gonna play this…spend that whole split. You know they don't want to play for the overhead. They like that whole MLM aspect of it where they can get a percentage of it back.  Now another thing that you mentioned…So I think you were right on point there. Another thing that you mentioned at the start of last year were that efficiencies with technology were gonna increase the tension on commission rates. Things that we can charge as a broker. Do you think that played out? What do you think? [Christian]: You know I don't have any numbers so you know I am not really sure but I mean I am increase hearing more about you know 100%, you know, commission models and that sort of thing. Which I mean those have been around for a while but they seem to be getting more and more popular as agents are looking to cut their costs and not have a big split.  Yeah I don't what the trend of that is gonna be because, you know, even in my book there is a give and take. If you're getting 100% commission split you're probably not getting a lot of support. And if you have a high split theoretically you'd be getting more support and have a physical brokerage. [Chris]: Theoretically. [Christian]: And access to your designated broker and all that kind of stuff but like…So I don't know it's hard to just get a blank statement saying “100% models provide you nothing” because there are some that provide just as much as a full service. I am not really sure how they do that other than maybe just being massive or having you know no broken order or no staff or something.  [Chris]: Nate what do you think? Do you think that played a part last year? [Nathan]: Yeah I mean again I am you know the indie small guy too that was with the big name. Still got a lot of strong opinions on it if you would. [Chris] : You? Nah. [Nathan]: It…It's…I go back to the word we talk about all the time. It's about value. But you know what we do now in 2018-19 is way different than what people did in 98-99. Like it's just…it's different so again you have to adapt you have to change.  You know somebody the other day was asking me you know questions about flat free models, this and the other. You know he was thinking about going to Cornecall [phonetics]. I hate the word. Everybody says it. But discount in commissions and again I can argue that all day. But I asked him… [Chris]: It's a different model. [Nathan]: Yeah right that's what I said. I said…I asked the guy and said “You pissed off at Amazon?”. And he said “Why?”. I said “You mad at Amazon?”. He said “Well no I get a great deal through them”. I said “OK don't be mad at me”.  Right it's just a different thing right. Nobody…You know everybody says that's not a fair comparison. It's just somebody did something different, right. And so I hate the word discount. Right it is what it is.  So…I think we will still see more people going to the independent side if the large big bucks brokerages can't figure out this value component. I think too many people see through what they quote on quote “offer” right now. The smart ones that is.  Now you know a new agent, there's different ways to go about it and what they offer them but I mean you call me. I just got a phone call. I know what it is about. But he's gonna try to sell me on what they can provide me. Man you better come on with a strong pitch. Like best I know. Like…Because I am not going anywhere. So I don't know… [Christian]: What…And I mean that's the…that's the tricky thing about the franchises and the value proposition is that they really are stuck in the where everyone is an independent contractor therefore we can't tell them how to do their business therefore they don't control any of the client experience for their agents. And all the tools they provide are totally optional you know and if they kind of suck because you know “Hey we have our own proprietary internal CRM or home search site or app” Or whatever. They're probably gonna be terrible and part of the reason you're paying so much is because you spend all these money to cut some bill some part stuff that can't compete with Zillow or a dedicated third party CRM, you know.  [Nathan]: It keep swinging at home runs. [laughter] [Christian]: I suppose indie brokerages which their focus is gonna be agent support, standardized culture and processes and training… [Chris]: We might have a bias [laughter]. [Christian]: Yeah I mean we don't…that is…that's what I have seen but universally that's what I see. I look at any of the franchise around here and the client experience and value proposition is all over the place as opposed to indie brokerages where that is their bread and butter of the “This is the value we provide. People want to be here because of blah blah blah blah blah”. You know and somebody goes to franchise the only value proposition I hear is “Well you get the name”. And I am like “That's not value proposition.”. Like… [Nathan]: If somebody comes to me again with “Hey once you've reached the third level…”I…If I wanted to be a recruiter guess what I would have been? I would have been a recorder. Like that's just not what…That's an MLN to me and you know and sorry if that bothers you. Actually no I am not sorry if that offends you. I am who I am. But…[laughter] getting to the third level whatever it is it has 0 concern for me. [Chris]: Every day I have somebody from EXP either friend me, send me a Facebook message, a LinkedIn request. “Hey what do you think is gonna happen with the market next year?” It's like they're pitching this. They study it. They train on it. [Christian]: I love it when they don't do their research and they're just pitching the brokerage owner. ”Hey you wanna come over”. Like “Yeah you don't know who you're talking to do you?”. [Chris]: There's a lot of averages. Anyway. Back to your predictions Christian I think that you know when you talked about the efficiencies with tech putting tension on the percentage I don't think you were off. But I think that what ended up putting more tension on it was how much value somebody can bring to the table.  I don't think it was tech. I don't think it was really tech putting the pressure on it. I think it ended up for 2018 really being how much value was brought in by the individual agent. Were they doing the things they were doing like the give back programs? And the high quality photos and met report? I think that ended up playing a huge role also. Tech to the stand point that you know like you mentioned if they're heavily leveraged, if they have lots of debt, they have to charge much more. I think you were right there but not necessarily on the bottom line percentage. [Christian]: The reason percentage. [Chris]: Yeah. Yeah I think in a…I think the broader reason ended up being value. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: And Nate after what you said I gotta presume that you agree with that? [Nathan]: Yes. [laughter] [Chris]: Alright so last but not least let's hear what I had to say last year. Take it with a grain of salt.  “We've had a lot of tech. Like the last 3 years in real estate it's been like nothing but tech. It's “Oh what's your website, what's your SEO what's your…you know how are you getting your leads? Are you doing you know the big 4 or you doing like predictive analytics now?” I think we're gonna see a lot of step back in those services from a lot of agents. And I think there's gonna be a big push as a lot of these suburbs bring in an urban feel as they're being redeveloped. I know we're experiencing a lot of that in Georgie.  I think we're gonna see a lot of agents really refocus on being hyper local. I think it's gonna be a lot of tech in the support and the systems and how they're able to make the transaction smooth but I don't see these big companies that are coming in trying to do disruption. I don't think we're gonna have a lot of focus on that”.  Alright so I also thought that there was gonna be a lot of tech. That there was gonna be a lot in the leads SEO, Zillow and predictive analytics which I think we saw a lot in that field. Right guys? [Christian]: Yeah. Yeah I mean there's certain things that you know…I think that you…I don't think…[background noise]. [Chris]: Stop doing that. It kills your mic [laughter]. [Christian]: I don't think…Oh does it. OK sorry… [Chris]: Yeah [laughter]. [Christian]: Yeah so I can assure things that aren't really ready for prime time. Like I can't speak push on like AI or…you know Alexa Skills and that sort of thing you know they're very rudimentary but there's been a lot of focus on them you know. So we'll see that grows in importance in 2019. [Nathan]: I don't think it's gonna grow really honestly. I think we're kind of out of…hat do you call it. Out of very flat. I think people are still like...There's a lot of discovery there has to be done with that stuff and I think we are a long way out before it really needs to concern any of us. But I could be wrong. [Chris]: Well tech played a big part. Now we have the whole conversation about the wrestle or the…the standardized data feeds that the MLS has put out. Here is a lot of pressure on the MLS to move to an API format which would pretty much make the IDX obsolete.  So there was a ton of work in the tech sector for 2018 but also probably my biggest prediction for last year is that we are gonna start seeing a lot of redeveloped neighborhoods. Lot of small town down town communities start urbanizing. Start feeling that…that kind of multiuse feel and that along with that we're gonna start seeing an increase hyper locality with how the agents operate. I think that is where a lot of independent broker rise is coming from. Small brokerages operating on a very hyper local kind of manner. Really owing the neighborhood, owning the town, owning the down town. Are you guys seeing that? [Christian]: Yeah I mean definitively in kind of the urban area Seattle even you know even the cities do some pretty big zoning changes to increase density in the loafer or in the ADUs and putting in a new light rail and all sorts of changes for you know a denser urban core. So yeah. [Chris]: Nate what are you seeing in Ohio? You're muted. [Nathan]: I just lost my whole train of thought when it got muted. [Chris]: Nate what are you seeing in Ohio? [Nathan]: You know what I see in Ohio and I will probably get slammed for this. We're a busy market but what I see in Ohio is we're always a day late and a dollar short or whatever it is. But we're late to the party. I don't know where I am going with this right now so just edit this out. My whole train it's… [Christian]: But there's been… [Nathan]: My whole train of thought just went sideways because I had a kid walk in the room. [Chris]: So we're talking about the urbanization of downtown areas in the suburbs. So the hyper locality of agents about really owning that. What do you think are you seeing that in Ohio? [Nathan]: Here we go. Yeah you are seeing some hyper locality. There's, you know, I could sit here and name quite a few agents off here real quick that specialize in certain areas. Again I still argue you don't have to. Does it help? Yeah I mean why…why go and have this wide area that you're gonna cover such as myself. I go everywhere. It can be a pain. When you can do just as well on a small hyper local area that has value.  I think you're getting push back thought now form consumers a little bit because it…you have the hyper locality but you also have the gentrification of neighborhood that is pushing on a whole other segment that is causing a whole other problem that I could talk about for days. So there's good and bad in it with both I guess. So…But you are definitely seeing it here. [Chris]: Yeah now you're starting to see like brokerages really taking advantage of that becoming that hyper local brokerage, that downtown brokerage?  [Nathan]: From the perspective of teams yes but not a brokerage like…You know downtown say you want to be in a certain area of the short north or what not here. VNR, View Tech and Rough you know like boom. But automatically they come to mind. Right? If I go down to an area called Old Oaks than I think like Jim Ross. He was…left Key Realty to just go to Remax I think. So again it's not necessarily the brokerage, it's the individuals or the team that is down in that area. [Chris]: Excellent. Alright so I don't know. What do you guys think? Do you think we were on point? Do you think we got 2018 right?  [Christian]: I think we're about 85% accurate. [Chris]: 85% accurate. [Christian]: Or maybe that's me. Nate was pretty spot on. [Chris]: Nate…Nate I think was dead on. [Nathan]: I feel that I mean yeah I feel good about what I said then. I feel good about what I say now. But I don't know looking at 2019 I think we're gonna see…what's the proper word. Regression? Is that right? [Chris]: Well let's talk about that. Let's talk about what we're gonna see for 2019. Where do you think we're gonna see regression in?  [Nathan]: I think people have over complicated what we do. And I think we're gonna see a “back to basics” kind of mentality. Which is upfront, relationship driven, client focused mentality for the successful real estate agent.  Now I want to be very specific. I want to say the ones that are successful I think really…You know when I say successful I mean long term but I think we're gonna see a heavier focus on this relationship building, you know not kind of hit it and quit it mentality. Or letting AI do the work for them. Because they realize they have automated everything they do. They have lost touch with those people. I mean your word for 2019 is relationships. Right? [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: So again I don't…You know some of us can see the wiring on the wall so I think we're gonna see that we're gonna go back to basics. That's what I'll call it. Back to basics in what we do. AI is a good thing. The technology is a good thing but let's get back to the core of who we are.  Joe Rand has got that new book coming out. I am telling you he even speaks about it. I guess I can say that. He talks about it. We're gonna go back to basics so… [Christian]: Thank you Nate you stole my thunder. I was gonna say focus on relationships and client experience. So yeah there you go there's my 2 sense. [laughter] [Chris]: Alright well Christian what else do you think is gonna happen in 2019? Let's take your predictions now outside of you agree with Nate. Great. What's gonna happen either market or interests, broker level? What do you think? [Christian]: Sure. I mean I think the markets, the writings on the wall I don't think it's gonna…I don't think it's gonna fully flip to a balance to a buyers' market. But I do think the silage market is gonna severely cool.  You know like here in Seattle people are freaking out because, you know, the last half of year it you know home values have dropped 11%. But a year of a year it's still up 2 %. So I think we're start seeing the normal umbers of a healthy market which are gonna be 2-4% increase over a year and not 40% for the last 5 years which is what Seattle has seen. So… [Chris]: Yeah no biggie. [Christian]: So I think it's gonna…I don't think it's gonna entirely shift. I think…you know or level out. I think it's gonna continue going up in a much more moderate. [Chris]: I think that…I think that you're probably on point there and that can probably speak in the nation as a whole. I think that for Atlanta we're probably gonna see something similar. Continued growth, but growth at a much slower rate. I think that our growth rate is probably gonna be cut in half at best and probably by 90% at worst. But we're still gonna grow. We've got too much infrastructure that is booming. We've got extreme demands for jobs here. So as long as that stays steady I think we're looking at something similar.  So Nate you kind of covered what your predictions are for interacting with clients.  Christian you kind of covered what we can expect for 2019 for the market.  So I guess that leaves the broker level. What we can expect for brokerages. So for 2019 I think we're gonna see a divergence in how…what kind of brokerages take off. And I think it's gonna go really 1 of 3 ways and we're gonna see a lot of movement in 3 different directions.  1 is you're gonna see the Redfin partner agents and Redfin agents growing exponentially. I think there's gonna be a lot of growth on that bottom sector of low commission, kind of higher quality service but low commission. So there's gonna be that movement.  Than I think on the other side you're gonna see agents moving towards very high tech companies. That's gonna be your Compass. And your EXP. You're gonna have that “We want high tech and we want low interaction”. They're gonna be flocking from the traditional franchise model.  And I think the third direction that they're gonna be moving into is the independent boutique. We're gonna see a rise of boutiques that are very…cultured centric. You're gonna see people who get together and the culture is the most important part. We're gonna see a lot of rise from that. I think that you can expect a lot of brokerages across the nation that are maybe 10, 20, 30 agents right now to probably double or triple their numbers so long as they can keep the management and the culture intact as they grow. And that's gonna be one of the hardest things to do that that segment is gonna have to kind of deal with and overcome.  But I think that we're gonna have those 3 movements. Away from franchise into high tech, low touch into the low discount model high volume and then the independent movement. [Christian]: Interesting. Can I give a little push back into one of those? [Chris]: Please do. [Christian]: I think, I could be totally wrong. I usually am wrong. That the… [Chris]: No you're 85%. [laughter] [Christian]: I am 85%. I think…I think that the discount brokerage model I think it's…we're not gonna see as much growth in that. I think that the word is starting to get out that you know Redfin is not so great. That the experience isn't so great. The outcome isn't so great.  At least that is what I have seen here. You know I have had a couple of…a couple of you know listing appointment that were like “I never list with Redfin”. You know. And because of that I think if you understand value and you maybe talk with people that use them you know word gets out that you know yeah you save a percentage or 2 but at what cost? [Chris]: Yeah and here's the reason… [Nathan]: For clarity let me ask you a question. List with Redfin or list with a Redfin partner agent? Because they're different things. [Chris]: Well hang on. [Christian]: I am saying the model.  [Chris]: Oh boy. [Nathan]: Oh no you can't do that, you gotta break it down. [Christian]: Well I am saying the model in the sense that like if your primary value proposition as a brokerage is more cheap that comes at a cost. And I think the word is starting to get out that discount brokerages by in large provide an inferior experience, results, whatever.  Now I mean obviously that depends a great deal on the agents but if your model is you know you've got one listing agent for an entire zip code of you know a million people there's not gonna be a high touch good quality experience there you know.  [Chris]: Wow and here's the… [Christian]: You know and even Redfin is shifting greatly away from the original model to not being that much different than the conventional brokerage.  [Chris]: Yeah here's the reason why I think that that is gonna be one of the moves.  [Christian]: OK. [Chris]: We have 1.4 something million realtors. We're almost back to 2008 levels of the number of realtors. We're gonna be switching to a market where agents don't understand how to deal with properties that have been marketed long. So they…the time on market is gonna increase. It's gonna be a lot of realtors that have not had to really work like hard to buy or sell a house. You know for the buyers agent their skill set is turn a nob and open a door. For the seller skill set the selling agent you know their job is to put the property on an MLS and let it sell. They haven't had to challenge their skills.  So I think that when this market shifts we're gonna loose agents. They're gonna leave the industry. But I think that a lot of those agents may move to a higher volume lower skill set style. Not to say that Nathan is lower skill set but to a discount model of where they're able to do a lot more business at a lot lower rate. Just because they don't have that background to be able to go out and compete in the market with agents that are on a higher skill set.  Now Nate that's nothing against you because you operate at a very high skill set. And your marketing is at a very high quality. But there are agents out there that do not. So… [Christian]: Yeah but there's only so much room for them. You know Redfin is only gonna hire so many people. You know. It can't be like “I can't make it as an independent contract” or something.  [Chris]: Yeah not just Redfin. [Christian]: Yeah that's a big one yeah. [Chris]: But there are plenty of regional brokers. There are plenty of regional low cap brokerages that are not gonna force an agent into charging whatever the broker's set rate is and they can go and charge whatever they want to charge. They're gonna move in that direction. They're gonna move to where they're competing on price not on skillset. So…so… [Christian]: Oh sure I can see that. Yeah. [Chris]: So I am mending my predictions for 2019. It is not specifically to Redfin or Redfin-like companies but to companies where the broker is more lenient on what they can charge. Where they can set their own rate and they're gonna compete on value. OK. [Christian]: OK I can see that. My hang up was kind of the Redfin model you know. [Chris]: Got it. Got it. So nothing against Redfin. Great company. Very high productive employee model company. [Christian]: There's gonna be a reputation where individual agents in standard franchise aren't per se. So... [Chris]: Well they're also extremely productive because their salary. Unless they're partner agents but the Redfin agents that are with Redfin corporate, their salary. So they are… So recapping again for 2019 Nate what is happening? [Nathan]: We'll see back to basics from a realtor perspective, agent perspective. We're gonna see an interest rate bump. And we'll see some market correction. We're not gonna have crazy like last year which was great but I think we're gonna see some stabilization which is…which is fine by me. [Chris]: Back to basics, relationships, more of a balanced market. Christian what's your recap? What's happening this year? [Christian]: Yeah I think the market is gonna be slowing down but not necessarily becoming byers market. It's just gonna be a slow down on the increase in values. We're seeing the economy like it used to be good and inventory is still rather limited but we're plenty folding, it has been this whole last year. [Chris]: 2019 you've got our predictions. The word…my word is relationship for the year. I think that Nate is right on point with that. If you haven't go to the website rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe. Get our updates every time a new episode is launched. This has been re:Think Real Estate. We're now well into 2019. Let's kick some butt. Take care.  [music] Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H whose music can be explored and licenced for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Littlest PetCast. I'm glad you're listening, even if I can't do this episode justice. "What episode?" you ask. The episode "So Interesting", written by Evan Gore and Heather Lombard, and directed by Dallas Parker. In this episode, Penny Ling doesn't think she's interesting, but Blythe thinks otherwise. Penny Ling then get the idea to tell everyone the story of her life and meeting the Green Bean Fairy Queen, and suddenly she's the most interesting pet in the shop.Who roots for Pepe le Pew? Why are there so many problematic males even as animals? Do the scores given have any actual meaning? Will I even let go of things? Why aren't you watching the episode?

Tourism marketing China is an extremely hot topic around the globe. China is the world’s biggest outbound tourism market and the number of Chinese outbound tourists account for about 10% of international tourists. In todays milestone episode we are speaking with George Cao, Co Founder and CEO of Dragon Trail Interactive a travel focused digital marketing agency based in China. We spoke to George about 6 months ago in episode 23 and that was our most popular episode so thought fitting to ask George to join us again so we could discuss and wrap up 2015 from a China Tourism Marketing perspective and look towards 2016.   Trend 1: Long Haul Travel from China is growing at a much faster pace than short haul travel. To destinations like United States and Canada as well as Japan and Europe. Trend 2: Independent travel is growing at a much faster rate than group travel - and this has been the case for a while.     Did we see increased competition from long haul destinations this year and people taking this market more seriously? At the 6 minute mark George says the opportunities are there for long haul and even lesser known destinations like Israel are getting involved and becoming popular.  Very interesting to listen to this part of our chat. "The market is looking for alternative destinations....they are now looking for more interesting places to go, for different experiences - so destinations like Israel are popping up on the radar screen." And this is leading to air capacity increase to these destinations. Listen in from the 7.30 minute mark. What were some of the significant activities that happened across social and digital that has an impact on tourism marketing into China? Mobile has truly become first and this is having a huge impact. SO INTERESTING listen in from the 10 minute mark for details on how including QR Codes, iBeacon and WeChat. The travel companies are realising the importance of offline traffic in marketing. Very strong growth in O to O. This means online to offline.  "...and the enabling technology for this is mobile...". Listen in from the 10.30 mark to go into detail about this. Great stuff.   Discuss some of the newer features of WeChat including their e-commerce capabilities. There was a good study that was released in August this year that surveyed 18,000 Chinese Outbound tourists. Nearly 75% of Chinese tourists are influenced in the choice of destination by social media. Is an official Chinese website still as important if destinations or businesses want to get serious about marketing in China or is social media making it less relevant? Tune in for the answer. The focus of Dragon Trail is to allow destinations and suppliers to reach Chinese consumers but now they are also enabling the travel industry to train travel agents through the China Travel Academy program. Also brand new to launch for Dragon Trail is Dingla (Booked) a B2B marketing platform to enable brands to market to the travel trade.  It has the ability to reach out via online webinars delivered through WeChat, can also manage roadshow activities, people can register and you can manage your trade relationships on this platform. There are lots of more elements to grow the B2B relationship and trade activities. FINAL ADVICE: "Really look closer to home. Do not put 100% of your focus on the internet in China. Do really look at what you have like the offline guests who are visiting you and think about ways to engage these people - because now you can - because every one of them has a smart phone and has WeChat and other mobile apps. Really engage them and turn them into your brand advocates. Spend a significant amount of time thinking about how to engage these people. " George Cao - Dragon Trail   The post