Podcasts about Longer

Can you help me make more podcasts? Consider supporting me on Patreon as the service is 100% funded by you: https://EVne.ws/patreon You can read all the latest news on the blog here: https://EVne.ws/blog Subscribe for free and listen to the podcast on audio platforms:➤ Apple: https://EVne.ws/apple➤ YouTube Music: https://EVne.ws/youtubemusic➤ Spotify: https://EVne.ws/spotify➤ TuneIn: https://EVne.ws/tunein➤ iHeart: https://EVne.ws/iheart VOLKSWAGEN OPENS ORDERS FOR LONGER ID. BUZZ CARGO https://evne.ws/nznke ALPINE ADDS COLLECTION PACKAGE TO ELECTRIC A290 https://evne.ws/068mk AUDI A6 E-TRON CLAIMS 831-MILE SINGLE-CHARGE RECORD https://evne.ws/hi5hx DACIA HIPSTER PRODUCTION PLANNED FOR 2027 AT EXPECTED £9,500 https://evne.ws/evqt4 EU WILL NOT VOTE ON TESLA FSD ON 6 OCTOBER https://evne.ws/eug53 INDEPENDENT USED-CAR DEALERS GET FREE EV TRAINING https://evne.ws/xsu0g RENAULT PLANS €600 MILLION SPANISH FACTORY INVESTMENT https://evne.ws/k503v US SENATORS DELAY BID FOR PERMANENT CHINESE VEHICLE BAN https://evne.ws/rwvd5 SLOVENIA WILL END ELECTRIC-CAR PURCHASE SUBSIDIES https://evne.ws/fijld ROLLS-ROYCE ELECTRIC SUV PROTOTYPE SHOWS SPLIT BONNET SEAM https://evne.ws/c8br8

Keke shares a list of things that she is no longer tolerating! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Keke shares a list of things that she is no longer tolerating! Plus, Kyle is confused why his date Abby won't call him back after hitting it off... Find out why he got ghosted!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Orezone Gold CEO Patrick Downey joins Mining Stock Daily to discuss the company's transformation from a single-asset Burkina Faso producer into a diversified multi-mine gold company following its expansion into Canada. Downey outlines the growth plan for the newly acquired Casa Berardi operation, the unexpected development opportunity at Heva-Hosco in Quebec, and continued expansion at Bomboré, with Orezone targeting 230,000–240,000 ounces of production this year and a pathway toward 350,000 ounces annually. The conversation also covers exploration upside, growing cash flow, debt reduction and how Orezone plans to use its operating assets to fund its next stage of growth.

Longevity doesn't have to mean expensive testing, complicated protocols, or the latest biohacking trend. Some of the most powerful strategies for extending healthspan may be remarkably simple—and available to us every day.Ron Russell is the co-founder of SunCafe Organic in Los Angeles and author of Longevity Visa. He spent five years working with Dr. Dean Ornish's heart-disease reversal program at UCLA Medical Center, helping patients implement plant-based lifestyle changes through food and habit transformation. He has also taught more than 400 longevity-focused wellness and cooking classes.In this conversation, we explore the everyday habits that can either accelerate biological aging or support vitality and quality of life. We'll discuss nutrition, movement, inflammation, supplementation, mind-body practices, and the challenge of turning good health advice into sustainable daily routines.The goal isn't to chase longevity at all costs. It's to identify the simple practices that can help us live better today while increasing our chances of remaining capable, engaged, and healthy tomorrow.Learn more at https://www.longevityvisa.com/Please, support The Aging Well Podcast by hitting the ‘like' button, subscribing/following the podcast, sharing with a friend, and….Tip Jar! All donations support this podcast to keep it going. https://paypal.me/theagingwellpodcastBUY the products you need to… age well from our trusted affiliates and support the mission of The Aging Well Podcast. (We receive commission on these purchases. Thank you.)The Aging Well Podcast merchandise | Show how you are aging well | Use the promo code AGING WELL for free shipping on orders over $75 | https://theagingwellpodcast-shop.fourthwall.com/promo/AGINGWELLAuro Wellness | Glutaryl—Antioxidant spray that delivers high doses of glutathione (“Master Antioxidant”) and the new Copper Tripeptide (GHK-Cu) | 10% off Code: AGINGWELL at https://aurowellness.com/agingwellpodcastNutritional Biochemical Inc. (NBI) | Trusted supplement. NBI stands 100% behind the quality of their formulations and the science on which they're based. | Click the following link and use the discount code AGINGWELL for 10% off: https://shop.nbihealth.com/agingwellJigsaw Health | Trusted supplements. “It's fun to feel good.” | Click the following link and use the discount code AGINGWELL for 10% off: https://bit.ly/4ks3Y0OBerkeley Life | Optimize nitric oxide levels | Purchase your starter kit at a 15% discount | Use the promo code: AGINGWELL15 | https://berkeleylife.pxf.io/c/6475525/3226696/31118Oxford Healthspan | Primeadine®, a plant-derived spermidine supplement | 10% off code: AGINGWELL | https://www.oxfordhealthspan.com/AGINGWELLKneeMo® | A smart device programmed to reduce your knee pain and keep you moving. | Click the following link and use the discount code AGINGWELL15 for 15% off: https://thekneemo.com/ref/agingwellProlon | The Fasting Mimicking Diet (FMD) is a revolutionary five-day nutrition program scientifically formulated to mimic the effects of a prolonged water fast while still allowing nourishment - supporting the benefits of fasting without the challenges and risks that come from water-only fasts. | For the best available discount always use this link: https://prolonlife.com/theagingwellpodcastThrive25 | Your personal longevity advisor | https://www.thrive25.com/early-access?via=william-jeffreyFusionary Formulas | Combining Ayurvedic wisdom with Western science for optimal health support. | 15% off Code: AGINGWELL | https://fusionaryformulas.com?sca_ref=9678325.IHg5xYhdOzzke8ZrDr Lewis Nutrition | Fight neurodegeneration and cognitive decline with Daily Brain Care by Dr Lewis Nutrition—a proven daily formula designed to protect and restore brain function. | 10% off code: AGINGWELL or use the link: https://drlewisnutrition.com/AGINGWELL

Home Affairs Minister Dr Leon Schreiber says production of the green ID book will end on 31 March 2027, with a 12-month transition period for South Africans to migrate to Smart IDs. After 31 March 2028, green ID books will no longer be recognised.

TSA workers are no longer allowed to sit down while checking IDs.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Three months ago Dwarkesh, who has been posting incredible blogs and episodes about RL, posted a framing question for his video essay on RLVR which upset a lot of Computer Use folks:We are no strangers to learning in public and are no strangers to the stress of getting things wrong when you have a big platform. However, we were at Anthropic for the Computer Use launch, there for Claude Cowork with the first big podcast on it, organized the first Computer Use track at AIE presenting the state of the art, and were close to the OpenAI-Sky Software acquisition that now powers the complete domination of computer use that Codex enjoys today. This is why we're excited to bring you today's first guest, Ari Weinstein, cofounder of Sky and now leading all the amazing CUA progress that casuals might miss:Ari explains why Computer Use is now “180 degrees different” from where it was months ago, how agents are learning to debug and recover from failures, why combining screenshots with accessibility data, the DOM, Playwright, and generated code changes the speed equation, and why the next frontier is making agents literally superhuman at using software.OpenAI clones JevIn the second half, Nikunj Handa from OpenAI's API team breaks down the new developer stack: async tool calling, mid-turn steering, WebSockets, UltraFast inference, the Decisions API, prompt caching, pre-warming, compaction, and the Agents API. Given that we were the first Jev podcast, we particularly focus on the unusually fast sprint on the Decisions API:And why it is just a Luna wrapper for now but the team is motivated and egoless enough to clone what they consider to be good patterns.We discuss:* Why OpenAI thinks Computer Use has changed dramatically in just the last few months* Dots and what changes when every agent gets its own Linux computer* Why Computer Use can now complete some tasks faster than the average human* The path from human-level to “literally superhuman” computer use* Why modern agents are much better at debugging and recovering from failure* How screenshots, accessibility trees, the DOM, Playwright, and generated JavaScript work together* App Shots and why they give models much richer context than ordinary screenshots* Why Computer Use can close the loop between writing software and testing it* Trust, permissions, and safety when agents can make payments and operate websites* Async function calling and why models no longer need to stop reasoning while tools run* Mid-turn steering, WebSockets, and the architecture behind more responsive agents* UltraFast inference and how OpenAI is pushing frontier models toward much lower latency* The rapid internal story behind the Decisions API* Why Decisions API is more than structured outputs at low latency* GPT Live, fast tool calling, and real-time computer control* How OpenAI is already using Decisions API for support classification and internal workflows* Longer prompt caching, cache pre-warming, and cache-aware applications* Server-side compaction vs manual compaction for long-running agent threads* What should live inside an Agents API versus a developer's own harness* OpenAI as an “AI cloud” and the search for higher-level primitives beyond raw model APIsAri Weinstein* Product & Engineering, Computer Use at OpenAI* X: https://x.com/AriX* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/weinsteinari/Nikunj Handa* Product, API at OpenAI* X: https://x.com/nikunjhanda* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikunjhanda/Timestamps00:00:00 OpenAI DevDay: Dots, GPT-6.1, Agents API, and Decisions API00:02:52 Dots and Personal Cloud Computers00:04:59 Why Computer Use Is “180 Degrees Different”00:06:04 From Sky to Self-Debugging Computer Use Agents00:09:24 How Computer Use Sees and Operates Software00:12:09 From Faster Than Humans to Superhuman Computer Use00:16:03 Agents API: Trust, Permissions, and Safety00:17:31 Computer Use for Coding, Testing, and QA00:19:14 GPT-6 APIs, Async Tool Calling, and UltraFast Inference00:23:21 The Rapid Story Behind Decisions API00:25:32 What Decisions API Is and How It Works00:30:24 What OpenAI Is Building With the New APIs00:32:23 Prompt Caching, Pre-Warming, and API Performance00:35:20 Context Compaction for Long-Running Agents00:37:13 Memory, Higher-Level APIs, and the AI CloudTranscriptIntroduction: OpenAI DevDay and the New Agent StackVibhu [00:00:00]: Okay. We're very excited to be here. Today is OpenAI DevDay. Special podcastSwyx [00:00:08]: We're the first podcast after your livestream.Vibhu [00:00:10]: First podcast. We have Ari here, who leads the product and engineering team for Computer Use agents. Before we kick in and dive deep on Computer Use, you wanna give a quick recap? What was announced? What's the quick slew of announcements you guys had today?Ari Weinstein [00:00:24]: Yeah. yeah, it was a super exciting day. we just got out of the keynote. It was really sick. there were a bunch of Computer Use announcements that I think are worth thinking about. We have, Dots, which is the new, sort of personal assistant product, and, that has some really exciting Computer Use features. There's GPT-6.1 Sol, which is this amazing new model, that I think is particularly great for Computer Use ‘cause of, sort of the cost and speed, advantages. I think, I think we shared that it's, a fifth of the cost of Astra and a seventh of the cost if you're looking at Computer Use specifically, which is really amazing. sorry, there were so many things. I'm trying to sort through it.Swyx [00:01:02]: And the API.Ari Weinstein [00:01:03]: Agents API, which now has Computer Use in it, which is really cool, ‘cause now developers can build on the same Computer Use, that is part of Codex, and ChatGPT. and then there were some demos of our existing Computer Use features, like app shots, where you can take the context of something you're doing on your computer and bring it into Codex and ChatGPT really fast. And then, like, native Computer Use on your Mac, where Roman had it taking screenshots of his app, automatically, and he could do other things on his computer while Computer Use was using his applications. so yeah, really exciting keynote.Swyx [00:01:35]: And not to mention the Decisions API.Ari Weinstein [00:01:37]: Decisions API.Swyx [00:01:38]: Off the bat, are they all the same model? Like, this is. Or the same dataset distilled to different models?Swyx [00:01:44]: Like, basically, like, is Computer Use using Decisions API, or are they, like, kinda separate?Ari Weinstein [00:01:49]: So what's really cool about the Decisions API is it, you know, it has all these new capabilities. It does inference in parallel. it doesn't have reasoning. It's a smaller model, than the ones we use for Computer Use. and so those capabilities make it really fast.Dots and Delegating Work to a Cloud ComputerSwyx [00:02:07]: Yeah.Ari Weinstein [00:02:07]: They also make it a little bit less good at doing, like, long horizon, sort of sophisticated tasks. And so I think I would say it's still an open area of research for how we, like, bring those approaches together. But, yeah, I'm really excited to see what people build with the Decisions API.Vibhu [00:02:24]: One of the interesting things is Dots now have attached personal computers.Ari Weinstein [00:02:28]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:02:28]: So it seems like they're very much more persistent. You've been using them for a while. How should people push the bounds? Like, what should people aim for? What should they try? Personally, right now I use it for a lot of customer service. LikeAri Weinstein [00:02:41]: CoolVibhu [00:02:41]: “Oh, this was wrong. I don't wanna sign in. I don't wanna authenticate.” Find whatever and just get it fixed.Ari Weinstein [00:02:45]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:02:46]: How should we push further? What should people try?Ari Weinstein [00:02:50]: Dots Are a really cool product because each Dot has access to its own Linux virtual computer in the cloud, which is different from our other products. you know, traditionally, we've have access to a browser in the cloud, or it has access to your own computer, but now you get your own entire Linux computer in the cloud. And so it can run full desktop applications, and it can also use a web browser. And so, yeah, you know, I think the powerful thing about Computer Use and the reason why I think it's so, exciting is because it makes it so that the agent can do anything you as a, as a person can do, because all the software in the world was designed for humans, and now agents can use that same software, and you can delegate to the agent. So, yeah, like, anything that you would do on a computer, you can ask a Dot to do. Yeah, I think what particularly is useful is gonna really depend on who the end user is and what- what's valuable in their life. but yeah, I would just start by thinking about, like, one of the things that you spend time on and how could you delegate those to an agent.Swyx [00:03:47]: Yeah, a lot of flight booking and shopping and honestly even, like, playing a game or whatever, right?Ari Weinstein [00:03:52]: Totally.Swyx [00:03:52]: Yeah.Ari Weinstein [00:03:53]: Yeah, I don't know. For me, something I did recently, I've been working on. I've, subscribed to a meal prep service ‘cause I was trying to, like, eat healthy, you know? And I really like this meal prep service I found because it lets me customize the meals I order to, like, a high degree of granularity. So I can say, like, “I want this many grams of chicken and this many grams of rice.” but it was so complicated. It took me two hours to do an order, and I found that I could ask Computer Use to do it for me, and it did it in 15 minutes. so I actually saved two hours. it both did it eight times faster than I could, and it saved me two hours on GPT-6.1 Sol.Swyx [00:04:32]: Yeah.Ari Weinstein [00:04:32]: So those are the kinds of tasks that I feel like, are really powerful.Swyx [00:04:36]: As a creator, I can tell you automatically, immediately, my number one use case is automating YouTube.Ari Weinstein [00:04:40]: Nice.Swyx [00:04:40]: Because, YouTube doesn't expose a lot of things via API.Ari Weinstein [00:04:43]: Yeah.Swyx [00:04:43]: And you have to just put it in a VM and just, like, run it, for, like, let's say, let's say their AB testing feature or making community posts. None of this is available by API ‘cause they hate developers.Swyx [00:04:53]: Anyway, so,Ari Weinstein [00:04:55]: I've heard that from our developer experience team too. They use it with YouTube a lot. Yeah. It's really awesome.Swyx [00:04:59]: So I wanna draw for, you know. let's say, I wanna get a little bit spicy. One of our, the leading AI podcasts, our friends, is famous for saying that Computer Use hasn't advanced in the last two years.How Computer Use Has Changed in the Last YearAri Weinstein [00:05:12]: Yeah.Swyx [00:05:13]: Which is a very interesting statement, and I think you're one of the best people in the world to talk about this, like, how have things have progressed, right?Ari Weinstein [00:05:20]: Yeah. You know, they said that a few months ago, I think, and I hope they have a different perspective now because Computer Use is, like, 180 degrees different than it was.Swyx [00:05:26]: He's a, he's a tough guy to impress.Ari Weinstein [00:05:27]: Yeah, okay. well, we're working on it.Swyx [00:05:30]: But, you know, you worked on. You've, like, basically spent your whole career working on, like, some kind of computer automation, right?Ari Weinstein [00:05:34]: Yeah.Swyx [00:05:34]: Like shortcutsAri Weinstein [00:05:35]: YeahSwyx [00:05:35]: At Apple, and then Sky, and then, and then joining OpenAI. Can you draw, like, what your through line is for, like, what is driving you and what- you, what wasn't possible back then maybeAri Weinstein [00:05:47]: Yeah.Swyx [00:05:48]: And, like, what your sort of milestones were.Vibhu [00:05:49]: I guess to add on to that as a follow-up question, what's the major change from using Codex Computer Use from, like, last weekAri Weinstein [00:05:57]: YeahVibhu [00:05:57]: Through to today? Is it model? Is it dots? Is it harness? So all the history plus what really just changed in today's announcements?Ari Weinstein [00:06:04]: Yeah. On the through line, I guess I've always been excited about automation and helping people automate tasks because then you can, like, save time in your life and focus on things that are more important to you than, like, operating a computer very intricately. And so, yeah, that was why we worked on some of those products. I was at Apple before. we made a company called Sky. we ended up joining OpenAI, which is really exciting. and I think something that wasSwyx [00:06:27]: And almost like you have to hack around Apple until Apple was like, “Fine, like, we'll just hire you and you can just work on the inside,” right? Like.Ari Weinstein [00:06:35]: It was, it was a cool place to get to work. what was really interesting looking back at Sky is we were, we were working on Computer Use there as well, and the models were so much less capable. And now the models, just in the last one year, have become extraordinarily capable at Computer Use. I think the biggest delta that I see is before they could, like, reliably start tasks, but then they would run into problems, and now they're really good at debugging. They're really good at trying again, introspecting what is and isn't working. and I think we've also brought the Computer Use the Computer Use field itself has moved forward. I think we're using more techniques. now Computer Use, often writes code. So if you actually look at it in Codex and you expand the tool calls manually, you can see that it's not just doing one action at a time. It's actually writing JavaScript code that it executes, that the computer executes to perform sometimes many actions at once, which is a great, you know, speed up and great capability. We use more accessibility, sort of multimodal interfaces. So, the model may use screenshots, it may use accessibility, it may use Playwright. it can use a lot of different mechanisms, based on the task at hand. and then, yeah, the model acceleration has been, has been just amazing. So, yeah, what's different today? I think we're making computers better all the time, so I think just, like, one day's difference, is probably a little bit less consequential than, like, even the past month or the past two months. but, yeah, I think the Computer Use in Dot is really exciting as well as, the new model that we came out with.Measuring Computer Use and Improving the HarnessVibhu [00:08:03]: On the keynote, Tejal was mentioning 7x improvements in Computer Use speed, a lot better on a few benchmarks. How do you guys think about measuring it? Computer Use is one of those things where, as you say, you know, it's improvements over time.Ari Weinstein [00:08:20]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:08:20]: Is it harness? Is it model? Is it post-training?Ari Weinstein [00:08:22]: Right.Vibhu [00:08:22]: How do you guys look at it internally about measuring how good it is, and what were the changes with the new model?Ari Weinstein [00:08:29]: We actually have a bunch of different ways of measuring it, some of which are on different permutations and configurations of the harness. It's a bit of a complicated story because, you know, our production products have, you know, some more safety checks, and, you know, those are configured differently based on the needs of the, of the task at hand. So there's a lot of ways to measure it, but I think regardless of how we measure it, we find pretty consistent gains. and those gains are, sometimes in the harness and sometimes in the model. and yeah, I was really excited by this result that GPT-6.1 is even more cost-effective for Computer Use than its baseline cost improvement as compared to Astra. It's, like, really cool to see.Swyx [00:09:10]: Yeah. I mean, one of the visuals I really liked from the livestream was that, you're sort of improving the Pareto frontier of, your, curve, and there was a lot of talking about how you're improving it together with the harness.Ari Weinstein [00:09:24]: Yeah.Swyx [00:09:24]: Can you give some examples of aha moments that you had, whether it's on, like, model driving the harness driving the model, whatever?Ari Weinstein [00:09:32]: I don't mean to repeat myself, but I think, like, introducing more modalities has been really powerful.Swyx [00:09:36]: Okay.Ari Weinstein [00:09:36]: One more specific example of that is, in the past, I think we saw a lot of Computer Use, products had to spend a lot of time, like, scrolling, you know? So it would, like, take a screenshot. It would try to do something. It would be like, “Oh, I gotta, like, scroll down to the next page of results,” and then it would take a screenshot, and then it would try to do something. It would scroll down again. And so I think, with accessibility and other. and, direct access to the DOM and other things like that, now the language model can actually see, like, an entire page or an entire application. It can write code that can do multiple steps at once. And so I think those have been probably the biggest single aha moments. There's, like, a lot of tiny ones that are less exciting in comparison, but actually we do find also that a lot of speed improvements are driven by, like, a lot of little paper cuts that we gotta go in and introspect.App Shots, Accessibility, and Better Computer ContextSwyx [00:10:21]: Yeah. A lot of really hard engineering.Ari Weinstein [00:10:23]: Yeah.Swyx [00:10:23]: I mean, app shots in general, right? Like, I think people don't quite get the difference if. because there's, like, a nice visual in Codex when itAri Weinstein [00:10:30]: YeahSwyx [00:10:30]: When you take an app shot, but they don't maybe they get the difference that, you are able to actually drive each button and you have the, you have each text, in a very optimal representation.Ari Weinstein [00:10:40]: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's kind of fun actually. If you wanna be, like, really nerdy about it, you can go into Codex, take an app shot by hitting the two command keys. So you grab the content from whatever app you're working with, bring it into the, Codex or ChatGPT chat. And then the. if you click on the attachment and you click on this, like, little tiny button in the top right, you can see the raw text and you see the raw accessibility representation. And yeah, we've put a lot of work into, puttingSwyx [00:11:04]: Just dumping everything out. Yeah.Ari Weinstein [00:11:05]: Dumping it out, but also making it token-efficient, doing it efficiently. There's, like, a bit of an art to it. And, you know, it turns out that the same technology that was invented for humans, you know, who maybe have accessibility needs, who wanna use a screen reader technology, that technology is really helpful for them to be able to use computers. It's also really helpful for LLMs to be able to use computers. So that's been, like, really fun to get to work on.Vibhu [00:11:27]: For context, I feel like a lot of people don't understand app shots. They don't even know it's a feature.Ari Weinstein [00:11:30]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:11:31]: It's when you double hit command, it pulls in what looks like a screenshotAri Weinstein [00:11:34]: RightVibhu [00:11:34]: And you're like, “Oh, why have I opened up just a screenshot and thrown it in?” No, it's actually pulling all the metadata, all the code, everything.Ari Weinstein [00:11:40]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it's like, you know, if you take a screenshot of a webpage that has a link- The screenshot doesn't include where the link goes. It doesn't include, you know, maybe you take a screenshot of your calendar, the ca- event ti- titles are truncated, you know? But when you take an app shot, it gives, like, the language model, like, full context about everything and, that lets it, just sort of, like, do much more.Swyx [00:12:02]: Yeah. For those who wanna see more, Jason Liu, I invited him to do a full workshop on this, at AI Engineer.Ari Weinstein [00:12:07]: Amazing.Swyx [00:12:08]: Did a great job.Vibhu [00:12:09]: I have a broader vision questionToward Superhuman Computer UseAri Weinstein [00:12:11]: YeahVibhu [00:12:11]: On Computer Use agents. So your example of take a screenshot, scroll page, take a screenshot is where we were.Ari Weinstein [00:12:17]: Right.Vibhu [00:12:17]: Today, they can automate a lot. what are the bottlenecks? Is it models? Is it harnesses? What. Where do you see it going in, like, two years? Do you see it just running for hours? How do we get there? Any predictions on where Computer Use goes?Ari Weinstein [00:12:32]: Yeah. I mean, I think what's really crazy that I think, You know, the team's accomplished over the past couple of months is that now Computer Use is, like, faster at accomplishing tasks than, like, the average human probably in most cases. and I think that the next frontier is to have Computer Use be, like, literally superhuman in its performance where it actually is as fast or faster at using software than, like, expert Computer Users like us. and I think that'll be really consequential and exciting when that happens because I think we'll be able to all of a sudden build products, that, provide just much more real-time experiences. And I think it'll also. lowering the barrier to entry of, or the activation energy, I suppose, of using Computer Use I think will make us start to default to doing certain things in agents that we've become accustomed to doing manually. And I think that's exciting also ‘cause it'll save us a ton of time. and I think there's a, you know, there are a lot of different little paper cuts and bottlenecks that are sort of standing in the way of that. I think that there's, yeah, there's things on the model side, there's things on the inference side, there's things on the harness side, there's things in the, in the representation. You know, we find that as Computer Use gets faster, we're increasingly bottlenecked by just, like, the speed of doing an operation. Like, for example, you know, a non-trivial amount of time in our benchmarks of Computer Use tasks is actually, like, let's say you're automating a task on doordash.com. Like, a lot of the time is actually waiting for doordash.com itself to load, you know?Swyx [00:14:04]: Yeah, then you just write a wait and then you execute the wait.Ari Weinstein [00:14:07]: Yeah, totally. And you wanna get. Yeah, actually, it's actually really important that you get that de- like, you want as little delay as possible between when it finally finishes loading and when you go andSwyx [00:14:16]: YeahAri Weinstein [00:14:16]: Trigger the LLM to do the next action, which is actually- itself a statistical science.Swyx [00:14:20]: Like an event-driven way maybe to do that.Ari Weinstein [00:14:22]: When possible, you want it to be event-driven.Swyx [00:14:24]: JavaScript has some load events.Ari Weinstein [00:14:25]: And JavaScript has load events for. or the web browser has load events for web navigation, but there's other types of events that actually really can't be event-driven. So there's a lot of complexityVibhu [00:14:34]: The one that comes to mind is, like, chatting with customer service.Ari Weinstein [00:14:37]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:14:37]: Replies could take 30 seconds, could take three minutes.Ari Weinstein [00:14:39]: Oh, right.Swyx [00:14:41]: I have dealt with so many bots with Codex. it's great, but I also wonder if the other side knows that they're talking to a bot ‘cause I'm, like, answering in complete sentences. Like, I'm capitalized correctly.Ari Weinstein [00:14:50]: That's hilarious.Swyx [00:14:51]: Like, I'm giving full num- full reference numbers and everything. Like, it's too. it's clearly too good. I don't care. Like Like, I'm just, like, trying to get my support case.Vibhu [00:14:58]: I've prompted it to, like, you know, “Don't pretend you're a bot. Be very annoyed human.”Vibhu [00:15:02]: Short one-liners, likeSwyx [00:15:04]: YeahVibhu [00:15:04]: Push it, do all this. I also tell it, “While you're waiting for responses, like, use subagents to research better ways to figure out what we need.”Ari Weinstein [00:15:12]: Nice.Vibhu [00:15:12]: It's just, like, human little intervention.Ari Weinstein [00:15:14]: That's awesome. I also feel like half the time it's a bot on the other end, so now youVibhu [00:15:17]: YeahAri Weinstein [00:15:17]: Got the bots talking to each other.Swyx [00:15:18]: Yeah. I will also say, you know, like, you know, one milestone of Computer Use that we are, we're at now is, you know, three, four years ago, we were scared of hooking up LLMs to the, to the web and toAri Weinstein [00:15:31]: YeahSwyx [00:15:31]: To our, to our devices. And now I'm having it configure DNS for me.Ari Weinstein [00:15:35]: Wow.Swyx [00:15:36]: I'm having it pay my bills, and, like, really, like, tens of thousands of dollars of, like, stuff I'm just sending it over and yoloing with Computer Use and, like, you know, what's the, what's the worst thing that can happen?Swyx [00:15:48]: So that- that's all, that's all really good.Building Safely With Computer Use in the Agents APIAri Weinstein [00:15:50]: Yeah.Swyx [00:15:50]: I think now that you've. you know, obviously, you also have to dogfood your own products and all these things. Now that you've sort of released this in API, what are some pitfalls or tips that you wanna tell developers, because they're about to, I guess, encounter all this, firsthand?Ari Weinstein [00:16:03]: First of all, I'm just really excited that we brought Computer Use into the Agents API. I think this is, really great because obviously a lot of developers are building applications that wanna be able to work with third-party websites and services. And so Computer Use has this universality to it. It can work with anything. So now all of a sudden, developers can build using the same Computer Use implementation that we're building on. I think there's great work to be done if you wanna build your own Computer Use harness, but it's hard. And also, we train our models on our Computer Use harness, so there is, an advantage to using the one that's in distribution for the model. There actually might be a speed and cost and accuracy advantage. So I think it's really great for people to get to build on top of that. And, yeah, you know, I think kind of to the point that you were making, like, I think we're all sort of still in the process and maybe, like, some of us are ahead of many people in the world of, like, getting comfortable with this technology and trusting it. And so I think it's incumbent on us to, sort of build that trust over time by making sure we're building things that are reliable, by building, the right kinds of safety checks, by asking for the user's consent before doing something consequential like making a payment, by, asking, you know, maybe depending on the application, making sure you're only letting it access the websites or applications that it actually needs for the task. So that's, I think, something important to think about. but yeah, I'd really encourage people to try the new Agents API, build all kinds of cool stuff on it. We'd love to hear your feed- feedback if, you know, depending on how it goes.Vibhu [00:17:31]: Have you seen any changes in the way it affects dev workflows? So one of the things with dots is, you know, you're seeing it in Slack.Ari Weinstein [00:17:38]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:17:38]: You're seeing people use voice and build. the example Roman showed of change this app and send me screenshots along the way and all this.Computer Use for Testing and Closing the Software LoopAri Weinstein [00:17:46]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:17:46]: Is anything that you're seeing there in adoption about how people are using Computer Use for coding workflows? Any tips people should take from that?Ari Weinstein [00:17:55]: One of my favorite use cases for Computer Use actually, and one that we see a lot in the wild, is Computer Use letting the agent- actually test the software that the agent has built, which is far more consequential than it sounds. Because traditionally, you know, you'd build something in Codex and then the-- and the Codex builds it for you, and then you have to test it, and you are now like QA for the agent, right? So with Computer Use, you can complete the develop-- the software development life cycle, where, the agent can build software, it can test it. So I have a lot of fun, you know, building stuff, having the agent test it. By the time it comes to me, it's already working. I have, extra fun because sometimes I'm, like, developing Computer Use itself, and so now I have a Computer Use agent that's using my Computer Use agent that's using something else. so yeah, I really, I really think this is a super powerful class of use case.Swyx [00:18:44]: I have a visual play test skill that I've developed that, really catches a lot of design issues,Ari Weinstein [00:18:49]: NiceSwyx [00:18:50]: That, you know, normally when you just look at code, you wouldn't really pick it up. it's also really good for cloning apps, though. If you're using a shitty SaaS and you wanna kill the SaaS You just clone it screen by screen by screen. and Obviously, Computer Use can completely drive everything, take screenshots, note it down, and then clone everything with Codex.Ari Weinstein [00:19:06]: That's really cool.Swyx [00:19:06]: But yeah, thanks for all your progress. I think, that isAri Weinstein [00:19:08]: AbsolutelySwyx [00:19:09]: Our time.Nikunj Handa: What's New in the OpenAI APIAri Weinstein [00:19:10]: Yeah.Swyx [00:19:10]: This is not the last that we're gonna talk.Ari Weinstein [00:19:12]: Yeah, cool. This has been really fun. Thank you guys for having me.Swyx [00:19:14]: All right.Vibhu [00:19:14]: All right. Okay, we're a strict cutoff. We're just gonna dive right in.Nikunj Handa [00:19:17]: Let's do it, yeah.Vibhu [00:19:19]: Okay, so, Nikunj, we're very excited to have you. You shipped a lot on the API side, like we justNikunj Handa [00:19:25]: YeahVibhu [00:19:25]: Talked about with Ari. You can now build with Computer Use agents. Anything you wanna highlight, the API side of changes, and introduce yourself a little and what you do?Nikunj Handa [00:19:34]: Yeah, for sure. My name is Nikunj. I lead product for the API team. Been here for roughly three years. been working on launching models. I feel like that's just been, like, a thing, constant thing throughout my time, here at OpenAI. And, with every new model, we try to, like, basically work super closely with the post-training team, the research team, to figure out what's new in it. and then we, like, expose those capabilities in the API. so that's, like, the basic way of putting it. and if you just look at, everything that's new with GPT-6, the cool new capabilities that we launched were, firstly, async function calling. so what you see with, like a lot of the things that you're seeing in, like, Codex and Dots and everything is that tool calls take so long that you don't have to, like, pause the model's execution while, the tool is running. So you could just, like, kick off a tool call, keep running, keep reasoning, and then check back in. so we launched async tool calling. We launched, like, mid-turn steering, so now you can, like, inject messages while the model is reasoning, in the middle. so as your tool call finishes, you can put in that instructions.Async Tool Calls, Mid-Turn Steering, and WebSocketsSwyx [00:20:43]: And that's also partially a model alignment capability, right?Nikunj Handa [00:20:46]: Yeah.Swyx [00:20:46]: Like, they have to train in the ability to train.Nikunj Handa [00:20:48]: Exactly, yeah. AndVibhu [00:20:49]: I feel like we've had it in the app. You could always, as it's reasoning, you could steer.Nikunj Handa [00:20:54]: Yes.Vibhu [00:20:54]: It wasn't the best. It's gotten much better.Nikunj Handa [00:20:57]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:20:57]: Excited to see how it does this in versionNikunj Handa [00:20:58]: Yeah, and I like our mainVibhu [00:20:59]: And nowNikunj Handa [00:21:00]: Goal in, our main goal in the API is to, like, put things in the API once it's trained into the harness. And so we kinda wait for that moment until it's good enough. And a lot of that is, like, actually being powered by WebSockets, which we launched, a few, I wanna say months ago. And so WebSockets just opens this, like, whole bidirectional, like, communication thing with the model. This is not, the GPT Life thing. I'm just talking about GPT-6. and you can do all these, like, async tool calling, async reasoning, injecting messages. It's a really fun API to work on. I think, like, really enjoying.Swyx [00:21:33]: Yeah. This is why we are the engineering podcast, because we get to talk about WebSockets.UltraFast and the Inference StackNikunj Handa [00:21:36]: Yeah.Swyx [00:21:37]: This also pairs very well with UltraFast, right?Nikunj Handa [00:21:39]: Oh, yeah.Swyx [00:21:39]: Like, that is now, like, I think for the first time ever available in the API.Nikunj Handa [00:21:43]: Yes.Swyx [00:21:43]: Which is, which is basically the theoretical fastest speed you can ever get, Frontier of Intelligence.Nikunj Handa [00:21:49]: Yeah. It's been so exciting to work on that project. I think, before I go into the API, the most fun part of, UltraFast has been just watching the inference team cook with Astra. Like, they're just, like, constantly having these, like, Codex agents running, trying to, like, squeeze out more performance. And, I would say, like, at least for a couple of months, a lot of it was focused on efficiency and driving the cost down, which is how we, like, were able to cut the Luna price by, like, 80%. It was, like, a lot of that was driven by, like, all the inference improvements they landed. And then now they've, like, shifted gears towards, like, how can we make this run as fast as possible? And so UltraFast has just been, like, amazing to see on a mo- on a model like Astra. Like, to go that fast has been really cool. And yeah, WebSockets is like. actually it was like the first time we launched WebSockets, it was for GPT, 5.3 Codex Spark, which was. Can't believe we named a model that, but, you know, that's what we launched it for. And obviously, it helps so much because, like, you gotta have the tool calls. you had, like, really reduced the overhead, of going back and forth with tools. And so, WebSockets is awesome for that.Swyx [00:22:57]: Yeah. it's always cute to see, like, I have my reset usage limit, and then I have my Spark usage limit that I never use.Nikunj Handa [00:23:03]: Yeah.Swyx [00:23:04]: Like, it's there if I want it.Nikunj Handa [00:23:05]: I think it's gone finally.Swyx [00:23:06]: It's gone. It's gone, yeah.Nikunj Handa [00:23:07]: I know it's gone, so.Swyx [00:23:08]: Yeah. you're slowly killing off all the, you know, theNikunj Handa [00:23:11]: The old ones, yeah.Swyx [00:23:11]: Oldies.Vibhu [00:23:11]: This is a great week. I mean, it was the first time we had Frontier Intelligence at extreme speeds.Nikunj Handa [00:23:17]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:23:18]: People really liked it.Nikunj Handa [00:23:19]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:23:19]: SoSwyx [00:23:20]: YeahVibhu [00:23:20]: First time it comes back.Swyx [00:23:21]: Yeah. for, 5.3 Spark is explicitly attributed to Cerebras. You guys are not confirming or denying that, UltraFast is related to Ce- Cerebras, but people are. I'll just say that people do care and, are wondering about it. And you have your own silicon as well. elephant in the room, decision models.Decisions API: OpenAI's Fast Decision ModelNikunj Handa [00:23:38]: Oh, yeah.Swyx [00:23:38]: Decisions API. We were the first podcast to do a big Jev, deep dive with, Diogo, and I also, you know, featured him at AI Engineer. How quickly did you see Jev and go likeNikunj Handa [00:23:49]: Oh my gosh. Yeah.Nikunj Handa [00:23:50]: Yeah. Firstly, like, huge props to Diogo and, like, the Jev team for, like, really inspiring theSwyx [00:23:55]: YesNikunj Handa [00:23:55]: Like, whole segment in the market. Like, obviously Jev comes out, everyone's, like, losing their minds over it. Our users are, like, hitting us up. But also, like, our internal teams are like, “We need, like, a much faster classification system.” We can. I don't wanna, like, get ahead of some of the dots features that are gonna comeSwyx [00:24:16]: WhooNikunj Handa [00:24:16]: But you're gonna see, like, some cool, like, really snappy, fast things built on top of the decisions API. but, you know, like, yeah. Props to Jev for, like, inspiring this whole thing. obviously a bunch of people at OpenAI get nerd sniped by that, and they're like, “How can we, like, make this work? We're not gonna, like-”Swyx [00:24:33]: Okay.Nikunj Handa [00:24:33]: “. train a new model.” ButSwyx [00:24:34]: Like, four weeks ago, this was not on the dev radar, right?Nikunj Handa [00:24:37]: No, not at all. No.Swyx [00:24:37]: Okay.Nikunj Handa [00:24:37]: This is likeSwyx [00:24:38]: WowNikunj Handa [00:24:38]: Jev-inspired and, likeSwyx [00:24:40]: I think you are officially the first one to your lab to, like, clone and, adopt this.Nikunj Handa [00:24:44]: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, OpenAI has such a strong, like, hacker culture and, like, people are just, like, they get excited about things. And so, guy from inference, this one awesome guy from, the infra team are like, “ this is amazing. We're gonna, like, hack on it.” They build a prototype, it, like, works, and now we- we are just, like, hill climbing on latency and trying to make this as fast as possible, and we wanna, like, launch it in the coming days. so as soon as we hit our, like, latency target, we'll try to get this out.Vibhu [00:25:13]: It's interesting. At the same time of hacker culture, you also, as Sam said, like 99%, one of the most reliable APIs withNikunj Handa [00:25:20]: Mm-hmmVibhu [00:25:20]: I think probably the most usage, which is your team directly. how should people see decisions API? I feel like a lot of people saw Jev, heard the buzz, haven't built with it. You're making it very mainstream.What Decision Models Are Good ForNikunj Handa [00:25:32]: Mm-hmm.Vibhu [00:25:33]: What should people see it as? How should they use it?Nikunj Handa [00:25:36]: Yeah. I think the main use cases we've seen is, like, really fast classification. all the Computer Use demos have been amazing and really cool. I think there will be limitations, of course, in terms of, you know, having Astra, like, write, like, a JavaScript-like script to control your computer, versus having Luna pick, like, one action at a time. I think, it's not gonna be at the same intelligence level, but, like, maybe there's some Computer Use tasks that this is good enough for. So excited to see that come through. the other cool prototype I've seen internally is people hooking it up with GPT Live. So GPT Live is like, you know, our bidirectional, like, real-time,Swyx [00:26:14]: VoicingNikunj Handa [00:26:14]: A- API. And, it's built on this, like, model of front-end models and back-end models. So GPT Live is this, likeSwyx [00:26:20]: Think or talkerNikunj Handa [00:26:21]: Super fast. Yeah, think or, talker thing. So GPT Live is the talker, super fast, really good at delegation, and you have something like Astra sitting at the ba- at the back. But tool calling has always felt, like, really slow in GPT Live. and so people have been, like, putting together these, like, tool calling demos of GPT Live controlling a computer, and it just feels like so much more snappy and natural. So I'm, like, kinda excited to see, like, what people do with Live and with Luna on decisions API. so that'll be pretty exciting. Yeah.Swyx [00:26:55]: So I wanna iron this out for people, especially from the product side, because a lot of people have been putting out Jev clones. There's been about 100 in the last two weeks.What Makes a Decision Model DifferentNikunj Handa [00:27:01]: Oh, really? That's amazing.Vibhu [00:27:03]: The first couple days.Swyx [00:27:04]: But like, it. Like, they can clone a Jev API, which is honestly structured outputsNikunj Handa [00:27:09]: YeahSwyx [00:27:09]: Which OpenAI was first to.Nikunj Handa [00:27:10]: Yeah.Swyx [00:27:11]: Right? So, like, I think let's iron out for people what is a decision model, as far asNikunj Handa [00:27:16]: YeahSwyx [00:27:17]: As far as, like, what is important? It is not just latency. It's not just structured output, right? Because I could just have Luna as it'- The decision model is priced the same as Luna, right?Nikunj Handa [00:27:26]: Mm-hmm.Swyx [00:27:27]: Have turned off reasoning and then have structured output. Do I have a Jev? you know, no, right? And that's theNikunj Handa [00:27:33]: YeahSwyx [00:27:33]: That's the realVibhu [00:27:34]: There's a confidence there.Swyx [00:27:35]: Yeah.Nikunj Handa [00:27:36]: Yeah, totally. I think, the way that. So we haven't trained, like, a new model for this.Swyx [00:27:40]: Yeah.Nikunj Handa [00:27:40]: We're, like, building this purely on top of the same Luna weights that we have.Swyx [00:27:44]: Oh.Nikunj Handa [00:27:44]: So yeah. This is, like, really just Luna. And, on top of that, what you're doing is you're constraining. So, like, structured output's a big part of it. you're really optimizing the inference stack to, like, get very fast on TTFD. And because you can have multiple questions, what you do is, like, you basically run those in parallel,Swyx [00:28:05]: As a batch.Nikunj Handa [00:28:06]: Yeah. You run those in the-- as a batch. you-- All sorts of, like, inference techniques people are working on to try to make it as fast as possible. But I'd say, like, at least our implementation of it at the start and this first version is, like, zero-shotting this on top of Luna, to see how it goes. And obviously, you wanna, like, put it out there. Like, this is OpenAI's, like, classic iterative deployment thing. Put it out there, see what people think, and then, like, we'll make more model improvements, as needed. so yeah. That's, the decisions API.Swyx [00:28:38]: Yeah. And, obviously as a benefit, you have vision. They don't have vision, right?Nikunj Handa [00:28:42]: That's true.Swyx [00:28:42]: Obviously, Jev's comes withNikunj Handa [00:28:43]: Yeah. Like, we get it for free with Luna. Yeah.Swyx [00:28:45]: Yeah. I do think that, like, you know, some of the innovations, it sounds like, it's still to come if it's still the same Luna weights, which is, like, the confidence stuff, like, the in calibration is something that we've talked about on the podcast with, benchmarking calibration. ‘Cause basically, the whole point is that RLHF kind of collapses you towards what you want to hear.Calibration, Architecture, and the Open Research QuestionsNikunj Handa [00:29:03]: Yeah.Swyx [00:29:03]: But, like, not actually, like, what the amount of confidence is.Nikunj Handa [00:29:06]: Yeah. Yeah, totally. I'm eager to see how it pans out. Maybe there's, like, gonna be. These are gonna be, like, the key areas where we may have to, like, hill climbSwyx [00:29:15]: YeahNikunj Handa [00:29:15]: With the, with the future model release. But, yeah.Swyx [00:29:18]: And then architecture-wise, the other thing that's in the debate, obviously, you-- Nobody knows because Jev doesn't talk about it, but the two speculations are, one, maybe diffusion model instead of autoregressive.Nikunj Handa [00:29:28]: Mm-hmm.Swyx [00:29:29]: But you are able to achieve the parallel, generation in your way. And then the other one is some mech interp type thingNikunj Handa [00:29:37]: Mm-hmmSwyx [00:29:37]: That you're, like, analyzing the activations and then just outputtingNikunj Handa [00:29:40]: That would be coolSwyx [00:29:41]: The weights.Nikunj Handa [00:29:42]: Yeah.Swyx [00:29:42]: Which, like, you guys have all done the research on this. People have speculated.Vibhu [00:29:45]: There have been demos onSwyx [00:29:46]: YeahVibhu [00:29:46]: Both of these as well. I think Gemini shared a Gemini diffusion, Gemma diffusion on a Jev-style output.Nikunj Handa [00:29:53]: Oh, sick.Vibhu [00:29:53]: And, interp people have also, you know, pulled out interp from a middle layer, but this is all speculation.Swyx [00:29:59]: It's just like, what are you trying to aim for, right? Because you can achieve the API. Everyone can achieve the API. It's actually pretty trivial. But, like, then there's the speed, then there's the accuracy, then there's the other calibration features.Nikunj Handa [00:30:11]: Mm-hmm.Swyx [00:30:11]: I don't know what else.Nikunj Handa [00:30:13]: Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. It's so cool that this, like, whole space has been kicked off now and people are gonna do so much cool stuff and everyone's gonna learn from each other. And, yeah, I'm excited about it.What Developers Should Build NextVibhu [00:30:24]: I feel like being on the platform team, a lot of your job is to empower builders.Nikunj Handa [00:30:27]: Mm-hmm.Vibhu [00:30:28]: What do you think people should build with decisions API and also Computer Use agents? Any stuff that you've- been building with internally that you think really opens up after the new change?Nikunj Handa [00:30:39]: Yeah. okay, let's think. decisions API, use cases internally have been pretty obvious. Like, the user ops team was, like, jumping on it. We were like, “We gotta classify all of our support tickets.” what else came up? obviously, there were, like, the really cool GPT Live demos. I'm sure, like, the Codex app team might, like, pick this up and try to do something cool with it. So, you know, like, this whole thing started, like, a week ago, so it's, like, very early andSwyx [00:31:06]: Oh, one week.Nikunj Handa [00:31:07]: We're excited. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much.Vibhu [00:31:08]: There was a big push in, evals, LLM as a judge having really low latency there.Nikunj Handa [00:31:13]: Right. Yeah. That'll be interesting to see. and then, with the Agents API, we have-- we're basically, like, having a bunch of first-party products, like, at OpenAI built fully on top of it. we've had the Codex security stuff that just went out that's fully built on top of, the Agents API. We have, sort of the-- we- we are having, like, a meetings type of thing launching today.Agents API and OpenAI's First-Party ProductsSwyx [00:31:40]: Mm-hmm.Nikunj Handa [00:31:40]: I think there was, like, a demo. do you remember, like, the plugin extensions when Sam was showing it? There was, like, a demo for, like, you're in a calendar, you can sort of, like, have your meeting notesSwyx [00:31:51]: Like, drop into a singleNikunj Handa [00:31:52]: Flow into like your spaceSwyx [00:31:52]: Like, Google Docs type thing.Nikunj Handa [00:31:53]: Yeah.Swyx [00:31:54]: Right?Nikunj Handa [00:31:54]: And so the-- all of that stuff is, like, fully built on top of, the Agents API. and yeah, I'm, like, just excited to see. Like, we're just getting this out, and let's see what people build on top of it.Vibhu [00:32:04]: I think you showed it off very well. The whole edit spaces, pages, collaborate, add in your dot. Like, that's a lot, soNikunj Handa [00:32:12]: YeahVibhu [00:32:12]: There's a lot of inspiration people can go to.Nikunj Handa [00:32:14]: Yeah. All possible with Astra, you know. Like, thing- things just move so fast now. LikeSwyx [00:32:19]: YeahNikunj Handa [00:32:19]: People go from idea to execution so quickly, it's amazing.Swyx [00:32:23]: Is there something that you want, people to focus on to give you feedback? Like, what-- like, you know, maybe you're just putting this out there and you want-- and there's, like, a fork in the road and you want developers to help you decide.Responses API Performance and Long-Lived CachingNikunj Handa [00:32:35]: So I think Agents API and decisions API, they are like, these are our newest products. Would love, like, any and all feedback on that to figure out where to take them. I think, over here, we're, like, very open on Responses API, which is sort of like our workhorse over here. like, really focused on performance right now, and the performance comes in, like, two main ways. first is just, like, latency. We've been, like, rewriting the whole Responses API stack to, like, make it as fast as possible from a TTFT perspective, DVD perspective. So there's like-- that, like, continues to be, like, a main area of focus for us. The second thing we've been trying to do is, like, really go deep on caching, particularly with these, like, personal agents that are, you know, like, basically, like, a single thread that just goes on and on forever. We've been, trying to, like, really up our game on caching. We provide now guarantees of, like, cache hits within, like, 30 minutes. We're actually, like, we-- for one of our users, we just launched, like, a much longer cache window. So we have, like, a 12-hour caching guarantee, that we offer so that you have, like, guaranteed cache hits forSwyx [00:33:40]: Is that a public API?Nikunj Handa [00:33:42]: Not yet. That's in preview.Nikunj Handa [00:33:43]: We're gonna, like, try to get that out to everyone as soon as possible. But, like, just pay a little bit more for the cache write, and we, like, guarantee, like, cache reads for, like, a much longer period. So even if, like, your instinct thread, for example, like, you just, like, do something on it and then come back to it, like, three to four hours later, you- you're still getting the caching performance out of it. And launchedVibhu [00:34:04]: And you cut the cost there quite a bit too, right, with the new model?Nikunj Handa [00:34:07]: Oh, yeah. That's right.Vibhu [00:34:08]: Like, 25% cheaper, soNikunj Handa [00:34:08]: Yeah, with, like, driving down cache reads, yeah.Cache Pre-Warming and Cost-Efficient Agent ThreadsVibhu [00:34:10]: For builders, they should implementNikunj Handa [00:34:13]: YeahVibhu [00:34:13]: Because it's significantly cheaper.Nikunj Handa [00:34:14]: Yeah. Yeah. Just, like, building your apps with, like, to be very cache aware and sort of, like, use our prompt diagnostics or cache diagnostics tool to figure out, like, where things are dropping off. And, so the caching part is, like, really important. yeah, I also wanted to talk about pre-warming. We have that in the API now. So, like, if you know that, “Hey, I'm gonna get a cache,” like-- sorry, “I'm gonna get this prompt. I just wanna, like, pre-warm the cache, pay, like, the cache write fee right now, and then, like, have it sort of ready to go for the next 30 minutes for whenever.”Swyx [00:34:49]: And it can spawn many instances of that thread.Nikunj Handa [00:34:51]: Exactly, yeah.Swyx [00:34:52]: Yeah.Nikunj Handa [00:34:52]: You can just keep going and haveSwyx [00:34:54]: Yeah, just keep messing with the prompt thereNikunj Handa [00:34:55]: Tons and tons of that. and so, yeah, like, I'm very excited about getting feedback on, like, the low-level performance things that we can keep making Responses API the most performant and reliable way to, like, build on top of an LLM. And then you basically have our, like, new products where I'm just looking for, like, any and all feedback.Swyx [00:35:15]: Yeah, just use it, right?Nikunj Handa [00:35:16]: So yeah, just useSwyx [00:35:16]: Tell us what toNikunj Handa [00:35:17]: Yeah. Define our roadmap for us, please. So yeah.Swyx [00:35:20]: I think for me, the caching thing, great, right? Like, obviously very needed. But at the end of the day, you're still bumping up against a million-token contextCompaction and Managing Million-Token ContextsNikunj Handa [00:35:28]: Mm-hmmSwyx [00:35:28]: And that's probably not gonna change for the foreseeable future.Nikunj Handa [00:35:31]: Mm-hmm.Swyx [00:35:31]: Like, you still need good compression.Nikunj Handa [00:35:33]: Yeah.Swyx [00:35:33]: What is the best practice there?Nikunj Handa [00:35:34]: Yeah. Yeah, totally. so firstly, OpenAI has its own, like, proprietary compression, compSwyx [00:35:40]: Which is inNikunj Handa [00:35:41]: Compaction.Vibhu [00:35:42]: Compaction.Swyx [00:35:42]: It's in the agents.Vibhu [00:35:43]: It's in the API.Nikunj Handa [00:35:43]: Yes.Vibhu [00:35:43]: Agents API.Nikunj Handa [00:35:44]: Yeah.Swyx [00:35:44]: You decide for us, right?Nikunj Handa [00:35:45]: Yeah, exactly. So in the Agents API, it comes built into the harness. and if you're in Responses API, there's, like, two ways of doing it. One is what we call server-side compaction, which is you basically tell Responses API that if you ever hit this threshold of tokens, just auto-compact it and, like, go back, or sorry, like, reduce the context, being used. And the second way is, like, /compact, which is, like, if you want full control. So you can, like, /compact at any timeSwyx [00:36:15]: I hear youNikunj Handa [00:36:15]: Have your own logic on when to, likeSwyx [00:36:17]: It's not AGI.Nikunj Handa [00:36:18]: It.Swyx [00:36:18]: It's not AGI.Nikunj Handa [00:36:19]: Yeah. Yeah.Swyx [00:36:20]: Yeah. But it, I meanNikunj Handa [00:36:20]: YeahSwyx [00:36:20]: It is the manual override.Nikunj Handa [00:36:21]: Yeah, it is the manual way. And like, I don't know, but a lot of the big coding agents like to do it manually. I mean, like, if you look at the Codex implementation of it in the Code- open source Codex harness, you can see that they use /compact and do it. and, there's also, like, new, by the way, new compaction techniques that we are working on. Some of them you will be able to see in the Codex harness. Like, it's already implemented in the Codex harness. And so, they're like some file-based, systems that we are, like, experimenting with. So yeah, lots of cool stuff going on around in compaction as well.Swyx [00:36:57]: Cool. we are running out of time.Nikunj Handa [00:36:59]: Okay.Swyx [00:36:59]: I think you've talked about, a lot about performance and talked a lot about, the new APIs that you're launching. Can you give us any other hints as to things that you're interested in as far as the future of the platform is concerned?Higher-Level Platform Primitives and the AI CloudNikunj Handa [00:37:13]: We're obviously like very low level. Like, I used to work at Stripe before this, and, at Stripe a lot of the game was like building these higher level primitives and products on top of like the core payments primitives. and, I'm always like curious about what the best way of doing that is in AI. And I think we've had a couple of attempts at that. We like had launched assistance API like way back in the day, and like wasn't really the right fit. We were sort of like going off with this like Agents API, and, it gives you the codex harness, but like where's like the, what's the right amount of flexibility to give in that? That's like an open question. Like how should we like have memory walls and like all of these like higher level like API objects to take away, also like to abstract away more, like storage concepts. Like this is like a whole, like, there's a whole space that I'm like very curious about figuring out how we design. I think a lot of things in AI are just have a low-level API primitive and see an example harness and go and have your coding agent implement that. But how much of that do we build into the API is like a constant question that I'm thinking about.Swyx [00:38:24]: Yeah.Nikunj Handa [00:38:24]: So I don't know if folks have thoughts on that. If anyone has ideas, it would be super interesting to hear.Swyx [00:38:30]: Yeah. The analogy I always bring back to, and we'll end there, is, you're building an AI cloud, right?Nikunj Handa [00:38:35]: Mm-hmm.Swyx [00:38:35]: Like, which is, something that, Sam said a year agoNikunj Handa [00:38:38]: Mm-hmmSwyx [00:38:38]: Where, and you're, it's almost like you're kind of doing the AWS invention and you have to do, okay, this is EC2Nikunj Handa [00:38:45]: YeahSwyx [00:38:45]: And this is S3, and this is like. But you're doing the AI-native versions of each of these.Vibhu [00:38:48]: There are a lot of analogies, so you're pre-warming caches for stuff that you know will beNikunj Handa [00:38:53]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:38:53]: And it's nice that it's all exposed to buildersClosingNikunj Handa [00:38:56]: Mm-hmmVibhu [00:38:56]: ‘cause it just opens up ways that you can build new things.Nikunj Handa [00:38:59]: Yeah, absolutely.Swyx [00:39:00]: Okay.Vibhu [00:39:00]: Awesome. WellSwyx [00:39:01]: That's everything.Nikunj Handa [00:39:01]: Thank you, guys.Vibhu [00:39:02]: Thank you.Nikunj Handa [00:39:02]: Yeah. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.latent.space/subscribe

Kristian Kerr, head of macro strategy at LPL Financial, says that the market has shaken off the impact of higher oil prices, leading investors to a sense of complacency, where they think only a much higher spike in crude prices will upset the economy. He feels, however, that "the longer we are at these levels the harder it becomes to ignore," noting that the same kind of thinking can also be applied to rising bond yields, where the market is deciding just how real the fears are, but where they can't ignore the issue indefinitely. Kerr isn't calling for a major market reversal, but more for caution and diversification, because he believes that at some point many of the fears over headline risks will be realized. Author Daniel Goldie discusses his new book, out today, "The Retirement Answer: The 6 Key Decisions Every Retiree Needs to Make," which covers timing, Social Security , Medicare, distribution strategies, investments and legacy choices In the Market Call, Aniket Ullal, head of ETF data and analytics at CFRA, discusses exchange-traded funds, which sectors appear to be in favor now, the difficulties in evaluating newfangled funds with options overlays or leveraged, single-stock strategies and more.

Allynn and Phil react to Week 3 of the NFL, debating whether the Chargers can find a win soon and how the AFC playoff picture is taking shape. They also discuss quarterback development, including how coaching, injuries, and a team's system can shape a young passer's future. A debate over Trevor Lawrence's goal-line slide brings fantasy football, clock management, and game-changing decisions into the conversation. Expect unfiltered takes, playoff predictions, and plenty of spirited football debate

Send us Fan MailThis episode was a casual conversation between Josh and Lara covering recent powerlifting competitions and personal updates. Josh reported on multiple lifters' performances at recent USPA and USAPL meets, including state and regional competitions where several athletes achieved personal records and placed in their respective weight classes. They discussed the USAPL's decision to withdraw from the Arnold Sports Festival, with Josh expressing concerns about the future implications and the move to a hotel ballroom venue. The conversation included updates on their fantasy football league standings, with Laura Styrlund and Chris Dresher remaining undefeated at 3-0, and discussion of Lara's recent free diving achievement reaching 30 meters (98 feet). The episode concluded with casual discussion about pickleball and a sport called Padel, with Josh joking about ending the podcast abruptly due to their conversation becoming too casual.Team Rohr Powerlifting100% Individualized Programming, Meet Day Preparation and Live Virtual CoachingJoin the Team Rohr Training App!Proven Powerlifting Programming Use code PLBALLADSPODCAST for 25% OFF of your 1st month!Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the showSubmit your Top 5 Wedding Reception Songs!Join our GroupMe!Follow/Direct Message us @PLBalladsPodcast on Instagram & FacebookEmail us at PLBalladsPodcast@gmail.comMore Information about the Podcast: https://solo.to/plballadspodcastThe Powerlifting & Power Ballads Podcast is co-hosted by Josh Rohr and Lara Sturm and sponsored by Team Rohr Powerlifting - for all of your powerlifting coaching and meet day handling needs. The podcast covers Georgia Powerlifting information as well as National Powerlifting news. One of our more popular segments is music, specifically 80's music and Power Ballads.

Blue Valley Schools will no longer offer benefits to employees who work less than 30 hours per week HR 1 full 2574 Wed, 30 Sep 2026 15:00:47 +0000 nf14ORwGCzVAB8Mjtd4tRtUXwA32xz9G news MIDDAY with JAYME & WIER news Blue Valley Schools will no longer offer benefits to employees who work less than 30 hours per week HR 1 From local news & politics, to what's trending, sports & personal stories...MIDDAY with JAYME & WIER will get you through the middle of your day! © 2025 Audacy, Inc. News

Explore what happens when you recognize that something has served its purpose and give yourself permission to move forward. Discover the freedom of honoring your story while choosing what aligns with who you are now. Choose Your Frequency: myfrequencyportal.com   Credits: Music by kulturekat, Dexter Yu  

OPINION: The day America could no longer police the world | Sept. 30, 2026Subscribe to The Manila Times Channel - https://tmt.ph/YTSubscribeVisit our website at https://www.manilatimes.netFollow us:Facebook - https://tmt.ph/facebookInstagram - https://tmt.ph/instagramTwitter - https://tmt.ph/twitterDailyMotion - https://tmt.ph/dailymotionSubscribe to our Digital Edition - https://tmt.ph/digitalCheck out our Podcasts:Spotify - https://tmt.ph/spotifyApple Podcasts - https://tmt.ph/applepodcastsAmazon Music - https://tmt.ph/amazonmusicDeezer: https://tmt.ph/deezerStitcher: https://tmt.ph/stitcherTune In: https://tmt.ph/tunein#TheManilaTimes#KeepUpWithTheTimes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Michael McLaren has outlined how America and its allies have turned to economic means to bring Iran down.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Managing seller expectations is essential when shifting from an overheated housing cycle into a steady, balanced real estate market. In this video, we break down why homes are sitting on the market longer and why extended days on market reflect normal market health rather than listing failure. You will learn actionable strategies for navigating longer marketing timelines, educating homeowners on realistic sales patterns, and proactively managing seller expectations so everyone remains confident throughout the listing period.Whether you are an agent guiding homeowners through pricing strategies or a property owner preparing to list, understanding current inventory dynamics is crucial to selling a home without unnecessary stress. Longer listing periods require clear communication, regular buyer feedback updates, and steady reassurance that a balanced market creates sustainable opportunities for serious buyers. To set your next listing up for success, subscribe to the channel for weekly real estate strategies, or reach out today to schedule a personalized listing consultation.Want to be a guest on our podcast? Email marketing@cookandassociatesaz.com OR kelly@cookandassociatesaz.comSelling your home? Get a free Home Price Evaluation http://www.myhomevaluecalculator.comKelly Cook, MBACook & Associates, PCREAL Broker14201 N Hayden Rd, Ste C-4 Scottsdale, AZ 85260480-442-9868kelly@cookandassociatesaz.comCookandAssociatesAZ.com

The bond market is repricing rapidly, with the 30-year Treasury yield topping 5.5% as investors abandon hopes of near-term rate cuts. This shift to a 'higher for longer' regime has massive implications for stocks, real estate, and retirement portfolios.Today's Stocks & Topics: Comcast Corporation (CMCSA), Market Wrap, Franklin FTSE Brazil ETF (FLBR), Wall Street Analysts, Fidelity Real Estate Income Fund (FRIFX), Bond Market Flips to 'Higher for Longer' — What That Means for Every Asset Class, iShares 0-3 Month Treasury Bond ETF (SGOV), iShares Ultra Short Duration Bond Active ETF (ICSH), Stock Market vs. Owning Rental Properties, Planet Fitness, Inc. (PLNT), Honeywell International Inc. (HON).Our Sponsors:* Check out Anthropic and use my code claud.ai/invest for a great deal: https://www.anthropic.com* Check out Quince and use my code quince.com/INVEST for a great deal: https://www.quince.com* Check out Scribe and use my code scribe.how/invest for a great deal: https://scribe.comAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

UFO disclosure is no longer confined to conspiracy theories. Government officials, military witnesses and scientists are now openly discussing unexplained craft, alleged crash-retrieval programs and “non-human biologics.” L.A. Marzulli joins Mondo Gonzales to examine the accelerating rungs of disclosure and the carefully constructed narrative being presented to the world. Are these visitors really friendly extraterrestrials—or could the phenomenon be connected to the fallen entities and supernatural deception described in Scripture?

What if you have to go deeper into the day to day before you can ever get out of it?Brianna Keefe spent her entire first year inside one store, open to close, writing the systems by hand and training every person who walked through the door. That year is the reason she can now be nowhere near the sixty five stores operating under her name.In this conversation, we get into why delegation collapses when the founder steps back too early, why she hires her support team a full year before the business needs them, and why her best performing store sits in a market she would never have chosen herself.If you are the bottleneck in your own business, this one explains how you got there.To learn more about Toastique and the franchise opportunities she's building across the country, visit toastique.com._________________________________________________________Free 5-Day Restaurant Marketing Masterclass – This is a live training where you'll learn the exact campaigns Josh has built and tested in real restaurants to attract new guests, increase visit frequency, and generate sales on demand. Save your spot at restaurantbusinessschool.com

When was the last time you went on a date, kissed someone for more than a second, or put your phone down and connected? Dr. Sex Fairy Kanwal Bawa, joins Brian to ask whether dating apps, AI companions, and endless entertainment at home are making real intimacy easier to avoid.They get candid about sex and confidence as we age, the physical challenges that can affect desire, and why a relationship needs more than a swipe to thrive. From arranged marriages to the simple power of a longer hug, it's a frank, funny conversation about what happens when we stop connecting - and how to start again.

What happens when you finally build the successful firm you have been working toward, but the role you once had inside it starts to change? In this episode, Melissa explores the identity shift that can happen when a law firm owner successfully gets themselves out of the middle of everything and suddenly has more space than they know what to do with.       In the second episode of this three-part series, Melissa dives deeper into one of the examples she introduced around how difficult it can be to see the truth from inside your own situation. She shares what it looks like when an owner's firm no longer requires the same level of day-to-day involvement, why that transition can feel disorienting, and what is important to consider as your role evolves.       In this episode, you'll learn why success can create unexpected challenges, how to recognize when your identity is still tied to an old version of your role, and why creating a new relationship with your time and contribution is an important part of growing as an owner.                           Let's talk! If you are a law firm owner looking to talk with us about partnering on your personal and professional growth, book a short, free, no-pressure call with Melissa here: https://velocitywork.com/calendar           ‍Check out Ben Gideon and Jeff Wright's podcast Elawvate: Build and Grow Your Law Firm on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts: https://vwrk.cc/gideonasen        Calculate your producer multiple with our free Producer Calculator here: https://vwrk.cc/pm           Get full show notes, transcript, and more information here: https://www.velocitywork.com/381

What happens when the political identity you inherited begins to collide with the faith that helped shape it?Melvin E. Edwards talks with educator and fellow John Brown University alum Lisa Heisner about faith, politics, race, and the difficult process of reconsidering long-held beliefs. Drawing on their shared evangelical backgrounds and years of Republican alignment, they discuss the experiences that caused each of them to question assumptions about political identity and Christian witness.Lisa reflects on voting for Donald Trump in 2016, what subsequently changed her thinking, and why she believes loving someone is fundamentally different from trusting that person with leadership. The conversation also examines racial justice, the meaning of “pro-life,” social media, ministry, and what happens when political loyalty and religious conviction become difficult to separate.In this episode:* Lisa and Melvin revisit their John Brown University years and the Christian environments that helped shape them.* Lisa describes growing up in a culture where evangelical Christianity and Republican politics became closely intertwined.* They discuss Donald Trump as a turning point in how they thought about character, leadership, politics, and Christian witness.* Melvin reflects on his experiences as a Black Christian and how events in 2020 and 2024 affected his relationship with predominantly white evangelical spaces.* Lisa explains how learning more about racial history—and her experience working in real estate—challenged assumptions she had carried for years.* They examine the difference between political slogans and personal action, including what it means to describe oneself as “pro-life.”* Both discuss how direct relationships with people in crisis can complicate beliefs that seem simple when considered only in the abstract.* Lisa encourages listeners to examine inherited political identities, investigate claims for themselves, and consider what their convictions require in everyday life.It is a candid conversation between two old college acquaintances about something that can be extraordinarily difficult to do: question what you have always believed and decide for yourself what should remain.Notable Quotes* “There is a vast difference between loving someone and trusting someone.”* “If God has blessed you with this wealth, how are you blessing other people?”* “My job is to love, to befriend, to minister to.”Stories from Real LifeMedia Well Done, LLC Get full access to Melvin E. Edwards at storiesfromreallife.substack.com/subscribe

William Blair macro analyst Richard de Chazal explains why investors may need to adjust to a world of structurally higher inflation, interest rates, and bond yields rather than expect a return to the economic conditions that defined the 2000-2020 period. He also examines how AI-driven productivity gains, capital investment trends, and Federal Reserve policy could shape markets and economic growth in the years ahead.

What if the biggest workforce challenge isn't compensation, benefits, or flexibility—but the story employees are being asked to believe about work?Toby sits down with Jonathan Lewis, President of McKee Wallwork, to discuss what their national workforce research reveals about the changing relationship between employees and their organizations.After studying 3,000 participants across the country, Jonathan describes a workforce increasingly defined by TFS: Transactional, Futureless, and Suffering. The traditional promises surrounding work, career, loyalty, and retirement no longer resonate with everyone the way they once did.So how can leaders respond?Jonathan introduces RQM: Relational, Quest, and Meaning—a framework for rebuilding the story of work around human connection, a shared future, and a sense of meaning in the challenges people face.Toby and Jonathan also explore the growing “Who” problem inside organizations, why culture and brand are increasingly connected, and why leaders at every level need to become better storytellers.In this episode:• How the workforce changed after COVID-19• What TFS reveals about today's employees• Moving from transactional relationships to relational ones• Why employees need a future worth working toward• Creating meaning instead of simply trying to eliminate struggle• The organizational shift from How → Why → Who• Why a clear internal story can strengthen workplace culture• How leaders can connect everyday work to a larger purpose

Mike Sanders sees attractive entry points with ten-year Treasury yields at 5% and high quality bank bonds over 6%. He urges investors to lock in yields for five to ten years despite a higher for longer environment driven by energy inflation, fiscal deficits, and AI CapEx. Sanders stresses being a bond picker rather than buying everything, since tight spreads mean solid yields can be found without reaching into lower quality.======== Schwab Network ========Empowering every investor and trader, every market day. Subscribe to the Market Minute newsletter - https://schwabnetwork.com/subscribeDownload the iOS app - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/schwab-network/id1460719185Download the Amazon Fire Tv App - https://www.amazon.com/TD-Ameritrade-Network/dp/B07KRD76C7Watch on Sling - https://watch.sling.com/1/asset/191928615bd8d47686f94682aefaa007/watchWatch on Vizio - https://www.vizio.com/en/watchfreeplus-exploreWatch on DistroTV - https://www.distro.tv/live/schwab-network/Follow us on X – https://twitter.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/schwab-network/ About Schwab Network - https://schwabnetwork.com/about

What if every verdict on Tottenham is being passed on a team that no longer exists? Aaron of The Professor says the squad has turned over so completely, ten in and ten out, that judging this side on last season's evidence is analysing a section of the ground after everyone in it has changed seats. Jim and Aaron work through the reset: why the new signings didn't inherit two years of trauma, the Man United comparison that shows how few survivors remain, why five games is no sample at all, and the case that Tottenham's goals are far closer than the mood suggests. Then the big one — the "just buy a goalscorer" myth, and the research showing how rarely anyone repeats a top-ten scoring season (Spurs have already run that experiment once). Aaron also puts a prediction on the record about where Tottenham's goals come from by the end of the season — and once you hear the reasoning, the January striker debate sounds very different. Read Aaron's Substack, linked in the show notes. https://profspur.substack.com/ #KeepItLilyWhite #OhSo33 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Garrett Chaffin-Quiray and Ed Rosa talk through divergent feelings about a master's lasterpiece.This is part of a series that overlaps with, and extends, Brian Raftery's 2020 book “Best. Movie. Year. Ever.: How 1999 Blew Up the Big Screen”. Primary screenings include: “Following” (Christopher Nolan, 1998), “Varsity Blues” (Brian Robbins, 1999), “The Blair Witch Project” (Daniel Myrick and Eduardo Sánchez, 1999), “The Matrix” (The Wachowskis, 1999), “Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace” (George Lucas, 1999), “South Park - Bigger, Longer and Uncut” (Trey Parker, 1999), “Free Enterprise” (Robert Meyer Burnett, 1999), “Eyes Wide Shut” (Stanely Kubrick, 1999), “Twin Falls Idaho” (Michael Polish, 1999), “American Beauty” (Sam Mendes, 1999), “Three Kings” (David O. Russell, 1999), “Boys Don't Cry” (Kimberly Peirce, 1999), “Topsy-Turvy” (Mike Leigh, 1999), “Magnolia” (Paul Thomas Anderson, 1999), and “Wadd: The Life & Times of John C. Holmes” (Cass Paley, 1998). An ADDENDA with documentarian Chris Metzler includes: “Arlington Road” (Mark Pellington, 1999), “The Limey” (Steven Soderbergh, 1999), and “American Movie” (Chris Smith, 1999).*** Referenced media:“Best. Movie. Year. Ever.: How 1999 Blew Up the Big Screen” (2020) by Brian Raftery“2001: A Space Odyssey” (Stanley Kubrick, 1968)“Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb” (Stanley Kubrick, 1964)“A Clockwork Orange” (Stanley Kubrick, 1971)“The Shining” (Stanley Kubrick, 1980)“Full Metal Jacket” (Stanely Kubrick, 1987)“Basic Instinct” (Paul Verhoeven, 1992)“Barry Lyndon” (Stanely Kubrick, 1975)“Top Gun” (Tony Scott, 1986)“Blade Runner” (Ridley Scott, 1982)“Showgirls” (Paul Verhoeven, 1995)“Spartacus” (Stanley Kubrick, 1960)“Lolita” (Stanley Kubrick, 1962)Audio quotation:“Eyes Wide Shut” (Stanley Kubrick, 1999), including “Musica Ricercata” (1953) by György Ligeti, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV_qPnsYIaA&list=PLRU2kFDUg_RLmd-GsT1v4zzYpW1TlRw5g&index=6“1999” (1982) written and performed by Prince, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rblt2EtFfC4&list=RDrblt2EtFfC4&start_radio=1“Millenium” (1998) written by Robbie Williams, Guy Chambers, Leslie Bricusse, and John Barry, and performed by Robbie Williams, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcWOviMI6Lk&list=RDxcWOviMI6Lk&start_radio=1

Garrett Chaffin-Quiray and Chris Metzler think fondly about late 1990s movie experimentation that formed the basis for streaming procedurals.This is part of a series that overlaps with, and extends, Brian Raftery's 2020 book “Best. Movie. Year. Ever.: How 1999 Blew Up the Big Screen”. Screenings include: “Following” (Christopher Nolan, 1998), “Varsity Blues” (Brian Robbins, 1999), “The Blair Witch Project” (Daniel Myrick and Eduardo Sánchez, 1999), “The Matrix” (The Wachowskis, 1999), “Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace” (George Lucas, 1999), “South Park - Bigger, Longer and Uncut” (Trey Parker, 1999), “Free Enterprise” (Robert Meyer Burnett, 1999), “Eyes Wide Shut” (Stanely Kubrick, 1999), “Twin Falls Idaho” (Michael Polish, 1999), “American Beauty” (Sam Mendes, 1999), “Three Kings” (David O. Russell, 1999), “Boys Don't Cry” (Kimberly Peirce, 1999), “Topsy-Turvy” (Mike Leigh, 1999), “Magnolia” (Paul Thomas Anderson, 1999), and “Wadd: The Life & Times of John C. Holmes” (Cass Paley, 1998). An ADDENDA with documentarian Chris Metzler includes: “Arlington Road” (Mark Pellington, 1999), “The Limey” (Steven Soderbergh, 1999), and “American Movie” (Chris Smith, 1999).***Referenced media:“Best. Movie. Year. Ever.: How 1999 Blew Up the Big Screen” (2020) by Brian Raftery“Plagues & Pleasures of the Salton Sea” (Jeff Springer and Chris Metzler, 2004)“Starman” (John Carpenter, 1984)“Fearless” (Peter Weir, 1993)“Law & Order: Special Victims Unit” (Dick Wolf, 1999-now)“Law & Order” (Dick Wolf, 1990-2010, 2022-now)“The Odyssey” (Christopher Nolan, 2026)“The Sixth Sense” (M. Night Shyamalan, 1999)“Memento” (Christopher Nolan, 2000)“The Sopranos” (David Chase, 1999-2007)“The Player” (Robert Altman, 1992)“The Postman” (Kevin Costner, 1997)“The Postman” (1985) by David Brin“The Transparent Society: Will Technology Force Us to Choose Between Privacy and Freedom?” (1998) by David Brin“Summer of Sam” (Spike Lee, 1999)“Malcolm X” (Spike Lee, 1992)“Eyes Wide Shut” (Stanley Kubrick, 1999)“Being John Malkovich” (Spike Jonze, 1999)“Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen” (Michael Bay, 2009)“Transformers: Dark of the Moon” (Michael Bay, 2011)“Transformers: Age of Extinction” (Michael Bay, 2014)“Top Gun: Maverick” (Joseph Kosinski, 2022)“F1” (Joseph Kosinski, 2025)“The Ring” (Gore Verbinski, 2002)Audio quotation:“Arlington Road” (Mark Pellington, 1999), including “The Bomb”, “Bloody Boy & Neon Reprise”, “Escape”, and “Leah's Theme” by Angelo Badalamenti, https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLohYzz4btpaSQLL-JlIHAsR4dbp-f2p7J“Plagues & Pleasures of the Salton Sea” (Jeff Springer and Chris Metzler, 2004), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhB2ZvHVFls“The Sopranos” (David Chase, 1999-2007), including “Woke Up This Morning” (1997) by Alabama 3,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJpNmYeooQE“Eyes Wide Shut” (Stanley Kubrick, 1999), including “Musica Ricercata” (1953) by György Ligeti, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV_qPnsYIaA&list=PLRU2kFDUg_RLmd-GsT1v4zzYpW1TlRw5g&index=6“Blender Sound Effect” (2023), posted by Infinity Sounds, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV_qPnsYIaA&list=PLRU2kFDUg_RLmd-GsT1v4zzYpW1TlRw5g&index=6“EATING SOUND EFFECT” (2023), posted by Short Sound Library, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVN3HLx5IiI“1999” (1982) written and performed by Prince, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rblt2EtFfC4&list=RDrblt2EtFfC4&start_radio=1“Millenium” (1998) written by Robbie Williams, Guy Chambers, Leslie Bricusse, and John Barry, and performed by Robbie Williams, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcWOviMI6Lk&list=RDxcWOviMI6Lk&start_radio=1 

The Sin We No Longer Call Sin Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"We are living in a time when what God calls holy is often mocked… And what God calls sinful is often applauded. Right is called wrong. Wrong is called right. Truth is dismissed as intolerance. Holiness is labeled outdated. Conviction is mistaken for judgment.Join Life's Word Academy: https://tinyurl.com/lifeswordacademyAccept Jesus today. https://youtube.com/shorts/bIwAUlz7Kg4?si=BNOhv44iLWIR4eVJIf you would like to accept Jesus into your heart today, pray this simple prayer:****God, I have sinned against You. I believe that Jesus is Your Son, who died and rose for my sake. I ask you to forgive me for my sin. I place my trust in You for salvation. I receive you as my Lord and Savior. In Jesus' name, I am forgiven! Amen!****Congratulations! You are now a child of the Most High. John 1:12 says, "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."****If you just prayed this prayer to receive Jesus Christ as your Savior, I welcome you to the family of God. Subscribe to my channel and type in the comments right now, “I just prayed that prayer.”****Click here for FREE eBook download: https://tinyurl.com/ISAIDTHEPRAYERShow your love and support the channel:*PayPal: PayPal.me/malachimitchellministry*Cash App: https://cash.app/$MalachiMitchNote Journals and Puzzles:https://tinyurl.com/WalkinFaithPublishingAuthored Books: https://tinyurl.com/PastorMalachiBooksHNO Crypto Coin Investing Opportunity: https://tinyurl.com/HNOCoin-ReferralFREE Ways to Support Me:

Is this the perfect novella??

Could too much sugar make it harder for your body to fight off a cold or infection? Registered dietitians Leah Kleinschrodt and Teresa Wagner explain the connection between added sugar, elevated blood sugar, and immune function. Learn why whole fruit is different from sugary drinks, which nutrient-dense foods support your immune system, and practical ways to cut back on added sugar and nourish your body during cold and flu season.

Just in time for Oktoberfest, Walter Kamphoefner joins host Sean Rost to discuss German history, culture, and life in Missouri, particularly his upbringing in the state's German Heritage Corridor and his book, Germans in America: A Concise History. Episode Image: German Singing Society, St. Louis, 1936 [Arthur Witman Photograph Collection (S0733), SHSMO] About the Guest: Walter Kamphoefner holds a Ph.D. in History from the University of Missouri. He is a Professor in History at Texas A&M University. He is the author of The Westfalians: From Germany to Missouri and Germans in America: A Concise History. He is also the co-editor of News from the Land of Freedom: German Immigrants Write Home, Germans in the Civil War: The Letters They Wrote Home; Longer than a Man's Lifetime in Missouri; and Preserving German Texan Identity: Reminiscences of William A. Trenckmann, 1859-1935.

Jordan Maxwell was talking about UFOs, extraterrestrial intelligence, ancient civilizations, and the hidden history of humanity long before these subjects entered mainstream conversation.In this fascinating talk, Jordan explores UFOs past, present, and future and asks a much bigger question: What if humanity's encounters with strange beings in the sky didn't begin in the modern era?Jordan connects modern UFO phenomena with ancient religious traditions, biblical accounts, mysterious beings, and descriptions of objects moving through the heavens. From the strange cloud and fire that guided the Israelites to stories of angels, heavenly beings, and divine encounters, he challenges us to reconsider how ancient people may have interpreted extraordinary phenomena.Jordan also discusses his own experiences and encounters, government secrecy surrounding the UFO subject, and the possibility that humanity has been interacting with non-human intelligence for far longer than we realize.Were ancient people describing the same phenomenon we now call UFOs or UAPs?Were some encounters interpreted through the religious language of their time?And if these intelligences have been interacting with humanity throughout history… what are they, where do they come from, and what do they want?This is classic Jordan Maxwell—questioning accepted history and exploring the strange intersection of UFOs, aliens, ancient civilizations, spirituality, the Bible, and the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven.Whether you agree with his conclusions or not, the questions he raised decades ago have become increasingly difficult to ignore.Topics: Jordan Maxwell, UFOs, UAPs, extraterrestrials, aliens, ancient aliens, UFO disclosure, biblical UFOs, angels, Kingdom of Heaven, ancient civilizations, government secrecy, spirituality, and unexplained phenomena.Jordan Maxwell has spent his life exploring the unseen architecture of reality, the symbols, stories, and cosmic forces that shape humanity from the shadows. His work bridges astrotheology, ancient religions, secret societies, extraterrestrial encounters, aliens, UFOs and the esoteric foundations of Christianity, revealing a universe far stranger and more interconnected than most ever imagine.For decades, Jordan illuminated how the heavens guided ancient mythmakers, how sacred texts concealed astronomical and spiritual codes, and how non-human intelligences have accompanied humanity since the dawn of time. His work shows that behind every religious ritual, political symbol, and celestial myth lies a deeper truth waiting to be uncovered. Jordan Maxwell is not just a researcher, he is a keeper of forgotten knowledge.His teachings, interviews and lectures continue to inspire seekers who feel the pull toward hidden wisdom, cosmic spirituality, and the mysteries that bind heaven, earth, and the worlds beyond.Spirit Realm: Angels Demons, Spirits and the Sovereignty of God (Foreword by Jordan Maxwell) https://amzn.to/31g9ydR

I want to change the way you think about retirement today.In fact, for the next hour, I don't even want to use the word retirement.Because I think there's a better goal:FINANCIAL INDEPENDENCE.What's the difference?Retirement usually means:When can I stop working?Financial independence asks:When can I stop HAVING to work?Those are two completely different questions.Because what if you LOVE working?Keep working.What if you want to start a business?Start it.Want to work three days a week?Work three.Want to teach?Teach.Want to volunteer?Volunteer.Want to spend three months traveling?Go.Want to buy a ranch and spend Tuesday morning on a tractor?Knock yourself out.Financial independence doesn't tell you what to do.It gives you the freedom to decide.And THAT'S what I want to talk about today.Not dying with the biggest investment account.Not retiring at some arbitrary age because society says 65.But reaching the point where your money can support your life...and your life no longer has to revolve around making money.

No one tells you to stop believing. They just hope you'll stop mentioning it. For Christian leaders in the workplace, the pressure to remain silent about faith doesn't always arrive as open hostility. Sometimes it sounds reasonable: Don't complicate things. Stay neutral. Keep personal beliefs separate from leadership. In this episode, Ron Kelleher continues the story of Bradley & Co. Solutions as Rachel, Sam, and Tom discover what happens when privately held faith becomes publicly visible. Rachel includes a simple reference to the faith that sustained her during a leadership forum. Sam mentions how his beliefs shape his understanding of integrity. Tom quietly reminds a board member that leadership always rests on something. None of them are confrontational. No policies are violated. Yet something changes. Their faith is noticed, documented, and remembered. Drawing from Matthew 10:32–34 and Daniel 6, this episode explores the tension Christian leaders may experience when honest conviction becomes part of how others perceive them. Faith doesn't have to be loud to leave a mark. You'll consider five important leadership lessons: Public faithfulness creates visibility. Silence may avoid exposure while compromising integrity. Accountability can precede more direct opposition. Faith does not need to be loud to be noticed. Once convictions become visible, they influence how others understand our leadership. This isn't a call for performative faith or unnecessary confrontation. It's an invitation to consider whether our leadership reflects what we genuinely believe—and whether we're prepared for the consequences when it does. The question is not simply whether your faith is personal. It's whether you're willing to remain faithful when it becomes visible. #FaithAtWork #ChristianLeadership #FaithAndLeadership #WorkplaceFaith #Leadership #Courage

In this episode, we talk with Geoff Curtis, author of Embracing Your Own Purgatory, about what happens when the identity you built around your work disappears. Geoff describes the armor he built around his career, and how he used work to avoid dealing with harder things in his own life. We talk about destination addiction (always chasing the next achievement without stopping to ask why) and what he thinks the antidote is. Geoff also shares why he believes productivity and progress aren’t the same thing, and how he’d approach a career transition today, in a job market where trust between companies and employees feels harder to build. We close on authenticity at work, and whether most workplace cultures are actually ready for it. Our Guest: Geoff Curtis Geoff Curtis is former executive vice president, corporate affairs and chief communications officer at Horizon Therapeutics, a biotechnology company focused on researching and developing treatments for rare diseases. During his nearly 30-year health care communications career, he has worked in various roles on both the client and agency side. Geoff is a committed mentor and coach to young professionals and undergraduate college students, and an avid philanthropist committed to education equity and access. He and his wife recently launched Future Voices Collective, a nonprofit organization dedicated to supporting first-generation college students pursuing careers in public relations and communications. Additionally, Geoff recently published his first book, Embracing Your Own Purgatory.  He received a Bachelor of Arts in English from Lake Forest College, a Master of Arts from DePaul University in public relations and advertising and completed the Leadership and Society Initiative fellowship at the University of Chicago. Geoff currently serves on the board of trustees for Lake Forest College, is a member of the board of directors for Hope Chicago and the Illinois Biotechnology Innovation Organization; is a member of the board of advisors for The Plank Center for Leadership in Public Relations; serves as Vice Chair for the Commission on Public Relations Education; is a member of the Dean's Advisory Council for the DePaul University School of Communications; serves on the advisory committee for the University of Chicago Leadership and Society Initiative and on the Graham Council for the University of Chicago Graham School. References: Geoff Curtis LinkedIn profile Embracing Your Own Purgatory (Amazon Link)

Could too much sugar make it harder for your body to fight off a cold or infection? Registered dietitians Leah Kleinschrodt and Teresa Wagner explain the connection between added sugar, elevated blood sugar, and immune function. Learn why whole fruit is different from sugary drinks, which nutrient-dense foods support your immune system, and practical ways to cut back on added sugar and nourish your body during cold and flu season.

Watch the new J-TV+ Documentary ‘IT IS RELIGIOUS: Why The War Is Islamic – And Why The Solution Is Jewish' - https://j-tv.plus/it-is-religious-why-the-war-is-islamic-and-why-the-solution-is-jewish/Donate to J-TV - https://j-tv.plus/donate/

The stories we tell about ourselves, and our experiences can quietly shape the way we move through life. In this episode, we explore the importance of noticing when a story may no longer reflect who we are or where we are going. We also talk about cultivating transparency with discernment, remembering that being authentic does not require us to share every detail of what we are experiencing. We get to choose what we share, when we share it, and with whom.We also reflect upon the power of trusting ourselves and remembering that whatever life places before us, we have the inner resources to navigate it. Through gratitude, compassion, patience, and choosing to come from love, we can meet our experiences without allowing them to define us. This conversation is a gentle invitation to release the stories that no longer belong to you, trust where you are, and remember that you are ultimately the boss of your own beautiful life.Have you joined our Facebook Group yet? Come on over and continue the conversation - we would LOVE to see you there!!https://www.facebook.com/groups/deliciouslymotivatedmindset************************************************************************Contact Deliciously Motivated Mindset (Debz and Moira):Follow us on x.com at @DeborahCooper1 and @WellnessMoiraJoin the conversation in our group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/deliciouslymotivatedmindsetEmail us at deliciouslymotivatedmindset@gmail.comThanks for listening and sharing!!

Like many writers, I've known what I wanted to do since childhood, and I've always known I'd need a dayjob. But, I didn't recognize how hard it would be to break into publishing in the first place. To be honest? This is taking longer than I wanted. So, let's talk about one writer's path -- or at least, one writer's roadblocks. If you find my content of value, please share it with your friends! Join me Sunday afternoons for "Morgan's Lazy Sunday Afternoon 'Productivity' Sprints" on YT/Twitch, where sometimes we're productive, and sometimes we're not, but we always bring snacks. If you're looking for an agent, check out My Agent Database on Patreon, where for $1/month you can have access to a spreadsheet of over 2,000 vetted agents, sorted by sub-genre, categories, and tons of other data. Also available are worksheets to fix your writing issues, submission package edits, and more. You can find me all over the internet If it fits your budget, show your support at Ko-fi Thanks for listening! I'll be back next Monday with more rambling ideas about writing.

The Christian imitates God by living a life of self-sacrificial love

What if the way your brain ages isn't as predetermined as you think, and your everyday choices could help you live a longer, healthier, more vibrant life? Tune in for an inspiring discussion with Dr. Ryan Williamson, MD, on his book The Incredible Brain: Proven Science Behind Living a Longer, Healthier, More Impactful Life.Moments with Marianne Radio Show airs in the Southern California area on KMET1490AM & 98.1 FM, an ABC Talk News Radio Affiliate!  https://www.kmet1490am.com Dr. Ryan Williamson, M.D., is a board-certified neurologist, U.S. Navy veteran, bestselling author, and founder of Transcend Health. Specializing in preventive medicine and personalized longevity care, he integrates neuroscience, physiology, advanced diagnostics, and lifestyle design to identify health risks early and create individualized strategies that protect brain health, enhance physical vitality, and support long-term performance and functional longevity. Dr. Williamson is also the author of The Incredible Brain, which translates complex neuroscience into practical insights that empower people to better understand and care for their most valuable asset—their brain. https://ryanwilliamsonmd.com  Order on Amazon: https://a.co/d/0h1yPcnf Discover inspiring conversations with today's leading authors, celebrities, thought leaders, and change makers. To learn more about the Moments with Marianne Radio Show, explore guest interview opportunities, connect with Marianne, and follow her on social media, visit https://www.mariannepestana.comExplore the Moments with Marianne Book Club and find your next great read: https://www.mariannepestana.com/book-club/ Listen to the Moments with Marianne Radio Show on KMET 1490AM & 98.1FM, an ABC News Radio Affiliate, weekdays at 8:06 AM PT / 11:06 AM ET and Sundays at 10:06 AM PT / 1:06 PM ET. Learn more at: https://www.kmet1490am.com/moments-with-marianne

Interview with enCore Energy Executive Chair William Sheriff Our previous interview: https://www.cruxinvestor.com/posts/encore-energy-nasdaqeu-founder-transition-isr-growth-verdera-upside-9413Recording date: 25th September 2026enCore Energy Corp. (NASDAQ:EU, TSXV:EU) is a US in-situ recovery (ISR) uranium producer with two operating central processing plants in South Texas: Alta Mesa, a 70/30 joint venture with Boss Energy, and Rosita. It also has development projects in South Dakota and Wyoming. In an interview with Crux Investor, founder and Executive Chair William Sheriff set out where the company stands after a difficult 2026 and what investors should watch next.The central issue is permitting. Two new sources of feed are built and ready: Wellfield 3 Extension at Alta Mesa, and the Upper Spring Creek satellite ion exchange plant and wellfield that feed Rosita. A third, Wellfield 8 at Alta Mesa, was days from completion. Final permits from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TCEQ) are guided for Q4 2026 for the first two and by the end of Q1 2027 for Wellfield 8. Sheriff blames the delay on an impasse between previous management and the regulator, which he describes as self-induced. New Chief Executive Richard Little has since rebuilt the relationship, and Sheriff says any surprise on timing is more likely to be positive. The company intends to announce when the first permit clears public comment without opposition.Until then, extraction will be minimal. Wellfield 7 reached the end of its economic life in Q3, leaving a gap of three to four months. First-half 2026 figures already showed the slowdown, with 131,274 pounds of U3O8 extracted against 317,613 pounds a year earlier. The company met contract deliveries of 485,000 pounds partly with 360,000 purchased pounds. That lifted the weighted average cost of delivered uranium to $75.54 per pound, against an average sales price of $70.10.Management has responded with cost discipline. Little has more than 30 years in production-focused roles, and Sheriff says he agreed to join only if Sheriff returned. Staff numbers were cut by around 24% after an early-year hiring surge. Because drilling had run well ahead of permitting, Sheriff says the rig count was cut from 32 to 10. Total liquidity was $88.4 million at June 30, or $73.5 million excluding Verdera shares. The company has not drawn on its US$250 million ATM facility, and Sheriff says he has no interest in doing so.The share price was hit in September by heavy ETF-related selling, which briefly pushed the stock below US$0.70 on record volume. Sheriff and his wife bought about $250,000 of shares. The price recovered to the $1.20 to $1.25 range within two trading sessions of the September 18 low.Longer-term growth centres on Dewey Burdock in South Dakota. The project obtained all federal permits in under a year through the FAST-41 programme and entered state permitting in June 2026. Its preliminary economic assessment outlines 750,000 pounds a year, total life-of-mine capital of $264.2 million and a 39% pre-tax IRR at $86.34 per pound.Shareholders are also due to receive about 0.18 of a Verdera Energy share per enCore share on September 30. enCore received the Verdera shares when it sold its New Mexico assets to the company in 2025. The distribution gives holders exposure to about 88 million pounds across six New Mexico properties, a mix of current NI 43-101 resources and historical estimates. enCore keeps about 13.5% of Verdera.Sheriff continues to argue for consolidation among US ISR producers, now through agreed deals rather than tender offers. For investors, the near-term test is simple: whether permits arrive on schedule and turn built infrastructure into steady production.

This is the sleep optimization master class! Learn how to sleep better, support deep sleep, improve sleep quality, and optimize your sleep routine so you can wake up refreshed with a better mood and energy that lasts all day. 0:00 Sleep hacks for better sleep0:18 Diet and healthy sleep0:45 Vitamin B1 and sleep1:25 Sleep hygiene tips 2:54 Sleep tips for better sleep5:44 Magnesium for sleep6:38 Sleep and liver health10:03 Fixing circadian rhythm11:06 increasing sleep pressure13:06 What causes liver problems?18:40 How to sleep better and improve sleep quality23:20 Vitamin D for sleep27:05 27 expert sleep tips 50:12 Sleep optimization and melatonin 

God Loves You—But Do You Believe It? Is Your "Truster" Broken? What if one of the biggest problems in your relationship with God isn't that God doesn't love you—but that you have trouble believing that he does? Years ago, two young children in Rob Skinner's extended family were adopted from Korea. Their new parents gave them a loving home, security, opportunities and a family that poured love into them. But the children struggled. There was anger. Mistrust. Rejection. As a young man watching from the outside, Rob couldn't understand it. Why couldn't they see how much they were loved? Then he learned what had happened before their adoption. Their father had left. Their mother remarried, but her new husband wouldn't accept the children from her previous marriage. One day, their mother brought the six- and eight-year-old children to an orphanage. She told them to wait while she went to the restroom. She never came back. Suddenly, their difficulty receiving love made sense. The problem wasn't that their new family didn't love them. They had been hurt so deeply that love had become difficult to trust. And that raises an important question: Is Your "Truster" Broken? Rob first heard the phrase "broken truster" from Gary Meyer, author of Imitating Paul. And he realized: "I think I've got one." Maybe you do too. Paul prayed in Ephesians 3:17–19 that Christians would have the power to grasp how wide, long, high and deep the love of Christ is. Why would believing God's love require power? Maybe because we bring our entire history into our relationship with God. Rejection. Disappointment. People who left. Unanswered prayers. Failure. Sin. Shame. Experiences with parents, authority figures, churches, friendships and relationships. And without realizing it, we can project those experiences onto God. We know the Bible says God loves us. We sing about God's love. We tell other people that God loves them. But somewhere deep inside, a question remains: "Yes...but does he really love me?" Put Your Full Weight on God Rob admits that even after decades of seeing God's goodness in his life, he can still struggle to trust. He feels the need to perform. Produce. Accomplish. Fix. Control. Prove himself. He compares it to sitting on an airplane during takeoff or turbulence and gripping the armrests as if somehow keeping his body tense will help keep the plane in the air. Of course, the airplane doesn't need his help. He can sit back. Relax. Put his full weight in the seat. And maybe God is trying to teach us the same lesson: "Put your full weight on me. I can take it." Stop trying to hold everything together. Stop trying to earn what God has already given you. Stop trying to prove that you deserve to be loved. Jesus said: "Whoever comes to me I will never drive away." — John 6:37 God isn't looking for an excuse to get rid of you. What Happens When We Don't Trust God's Love? When we don't believe we're already loved, we start searching elsewhere for what we think is missing. Maybe another relationship will make me feel loved. Maybe more money. Another promotion. A better body. More attention. A growing ministry. A bigger audience. Another achievement. Another person's approval. But there's always another goal. Another number. Another accomplishment. Another person whose approval we want. We keep reaching because we don't understand what we already have. You are already loved. Rooted and Established in Love Rob returns to Paul's words in Ephesians: "Rooted and established in love." Roots aren't flashy. Nobody walks through a forest admiring the roots. We notice the tree. The leaves. The fruit. But when the storm comes, those invisible roots suddenly matter. Rob doesn't want his roots to be in his performance, ministry success, money, approval or whether life follows his plans. He wants to be rooted in one simple conviction: God loves me. When you truly believe that, you don't have to prove yourself constantly. You can admit when you're wrong. You can apologize. You can take risks. You can fail and get back up. You can stop comparing yourself to everybody else. You can love people without demanding that they love you perfectly in return. You can rest. You can breathe. You can put your full weight on God. Three Questions to Ask Yourself 1. Where is your "truster" broken? Where were you disappointed? Who rejected you? Who walked away? What prayer wasn't answered the way you hoped? What experience made you question whether God really cares? 2. Where are you looking for something God has already given you? Approval? Security? Significance? Love? Peace? What are you chasing because you secretly believe that once you get it, you'll finally be okay? 3. What would change if you really believed God loved you? What would you stop worrying about? How would you pray? How would you handle failure? How would you respond to criticism? How would you respond when somebody else succeeds? What risks would you finally take? People may disappoint you. People may reject you. People may leave. People may fail you. But don't confuse people with God. God's love is wider than your failures. Longer than your past. Higher than your hopes. Deeper than your wounds. Maybe your "truster" is a little broken. Rob's is too. But God's love isn't broken. Loosen your grip on the armrest. Sit back. Put your full weight on God. And get rooted in his love.

Romans 6:14 says believers are “not under law, but under grace.” Does that mean God's Law no longer applies?This Sheep vs. Wolf Debate follows Paul's argument into Romans 6:15-16 and compares it with 1 John 3:4, James 1:25, and Psalm 119:45 to examine what Scripture identifies as bondage and what it calls freedom.TakeawayRomans 6 contrasts slavery to sin with obedience to righteousness. The question is not simply whether believers are “under law,” but what Paul says grace has actually freed believers from.

See if you could pay as little as $0 for therapy using my link: https://growtherapy.yt.link/kYStfSz!What happens when you don't want to die anymore—but you still don't really want to live? After one of the worst periods of my life, I got myself out of crisis by slowing everything down. But that left me with a different problem: I had no idea what I actually cared about or what would make life feel worth participating in.In this video, I share three places I eventually found things that mattered to me: in the interests I abandoned before depression, in experiences I had dismissed while severely struggling, and through other people who introduced me to things I never would have discovered alone.If the crisis has passed but you've been left feeling empty, directionless, or unsure what you're supposed to live for now, you aren't necessarily starting from nothing. Some of what you're looking for may already be scattered throughout your life.If my podcast has helped, my new book, The Light Between the Leaves, goes even deeperNext Steps:

From the earliest days of open-weight models to becoming the neutral routing layer for more than 10 million developers, OpenRouter is one of the clearest bets that the future of AI will be multi-model. In this episode, OpenRouter co-founder & CEO Alex Atallah, with AMP's Anjney Midha returning with swyx to unpack how OpenRouter emerged from the first wave of Llama, Alpaca, Mistral, and Midjourney, why model diversity mattered before it was consensus, and how a company dismissed as “just a wrapper” became critical infrastructure for the AI ecosystem.We go deep on the product and distribution lessons behind OpenRouter: why model labs can spend billions training a checkpoint and still struggle to get it into developers' hands, how Mistral helped prove the value of a competitive inference marketplace, why OpenRouter chose focus over expanding into fine-tuning, memory, and other adjacent products, and how its rankings became a real-time map of how AI usage was changing. Alex also explains OpenRouter's early experiments with model fusion, why they deleted the first version and brought it back years later, and how the platform grew to more than 10 trillion tokens per day.Finally, Anjney explains why Stripe and OpenRouter fit together, why token fraud may become one of the defining security problems of the AI economy, and why the next wave of fraud won't just come from humans but from autonomous agents attacking increasingly valuable token flows.We discuss:* Why OpenRouter bet early that no single AI model would win everything* Alpaca, Llama, and open models becoming impossible to ignore* Why Discord's early AI deployments exposed the limitations of closed models* Why model labs can spend billions on training and still fail at distribution* How OpenRouter became a neutral distribution layer for model developers* Why VCs dismissed OpenRouter as “just a marketplace” or “just a wrapper”* The Mistral price war and the first real proof of an inference marketplace* How Midjourney scaled through Discord and what it taught the AI ecosystem* Why crypto infrastructure became a dress rehearsal for generative AI* OpenRouter vs. LM Arena and why their missions are fundamentally different* Why focus became one of OpenRouter's biggest strategic advantages* Anthropic's early focus on AI pair programming and coding* The OpenRouter products that were prototyped but never launched* MOM, OpenRouter's early Mixture of Models experiment* Why model fusion failed in 2024 — and why it works much better now* How OpenRouter's leaderboard became a live map of the AI industry* OpenClaw, auto-routing, and agents reshaping AI usage* How OpenRouter reached 10+ trillion tokens per day* Why inference gateways are increasingly becoming targets for fraud* Why Stripe's fraud infrastructure is strategically important to OpenRouter* The coming rise of agentic fraud and attacks on the token economy* What changes and what stays the same as OpenRouter joins StripeAlex Atallah* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexatallah/* X: https://x.com/alexatallah* Website: https://alexatallah.comAnjney Midha* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anjney/* X: https://x.com/AnjneyMidha* AMP: https://www.amppublic.com/Timestamps00:00:00 Introduction00:02:12 Alpaca, Llama, and the Multi-Model Bet00:06:04 Discord, Open Models, and OpenRouter's Origins00:14:28 Why “One Model Wins” Was the Wrong Bet00:17:27 Why Model Labs Struggle With Distribution00:23:04 “Just a Wrapper”: Why VCs Misunderstood OpenRouter00:27:58 Bootstrapping OpenRouter Through Community00:36:16 Crypto, Midjourney, and the Early Generative AI Ecosystem00:43:38 Mistral and the Birth of the Inference Marketplace00:47:10 OpenRouter vs. LM Arena00:52:08 Focus, Anthropic, and Roads Not Taken00:59:34 Mixture of Models and Model Fusion01:02:44 Sonnet, OpenClaw, and OpenRouter's Explosive Growth01:09:03 Why Stripe Acquired OpenRouter01:12:45 Fraud and the Emerging Token Economy01:17:47 The Coming Wave of Agentic Fraud01:19:07 What's Next for OpenRouter at StripeTranscriptIntroduction: OpenRouter, Marketplaces, and Pub-Sub as a Product PrincipleSwyx [00:00:00]: Okay, we are here in Anja's house, which is where all big startups in San Francisco start.Anjney Midha [00:00:08]: Howdy.Swyx [00:00:08]: And, congrats on Cursor, Mistral. I don'- God knows what else. You got so much stuff going on.Anjney Midha [00:00:17]: There's, there's a lot going on. Well, OpenRouter is probably the - has been the most, I would say, like, one I'm excited about recently.Swyx [00:00:24]: Yeah. And we have Alex, first time on the pod, but,Anjney Midha [00:00:27]: Thanks for having me.Swyx [00:00:27]: You've been in the IE a few times. I appreciate every time you've shown up, for the community. Congrats. I just, like, what a journey. When I was looking back at your past posts, one of the earliest principles that I saw you write as a product person is sub as a product principle. And I wanted - you to maybe explain how you think about what should exist in the world.Anjney Midha [00:00:49]: Yeah. The sub piece, which was early 2023, I didn't think about it until we talked like 10 minutes ago, is about how there is like a way of thinking about products as an intersection between subscribing to data and publishing data. And marketplaces are an easy example of this. You have suppliers that are publishing some product to a SKU. And the SKU is like a sub topic that a consumer is subscribing to and just going to, like, consume whenever they want. And humans consume in a very, like, discreet, ad hoc way. It's not very scalable. all their attention is on the topic when they're buying the thing, and their attention is nowhere else when that happens. agents and consumers of inference don't act like that. They're consuming continuously, and they're changing the SKUs that they consume from all the time. So OpenRouter is like a blend between a normal API experience and a marketplace where we create model slug. We have the auto router. We have all kinds of, like, product SKUs that you can subscribe to. And then you can, like, continuously add, like, derive value and make decisions based on those consumers.Alpaca, Llama, and the Multi-Model BetSwyx [00:02:11]: Yeah. This is something that was more consensus now, but not consensus when you guys started, which was that there is such a demand for swapping models and changing things out and, that people would not use the native SDKs. I guess, for each of you, what was your realization moment that this would be it? I, - You've, you've given a talk at EIE about Alpaca as,Anjney Midha [00:02:33]: Yeah.Swyx [00:02:33]: One of your inspiring moments.Anjney Midha [00:02:35]: Alpaca, I can, like, rehash the Alpaca moment for a sec. Like, the very beginning, at the end of 2022, OpenAI was the only game in town. There was, like, OpenAI, Cohere,Swyx [00:02:47]: Yes.Anjney Midha [00:02:48]: And then a smattering of, like, early attempts at open weight models.Swyx [00:02:54]: Yeah.Anjney Midha [00:02:54]: When Llama came out in January of 2023, it was like, “Wow, really exciting. This is really big.” It outperforms 3 on, one or two benchmarks. but you can't chat with it. It wasn't like - It wasn't an engaging model, but it seemed like someone just needed to fix a couple things and do some RLHF on it to get it all the way there. And Alpaca was the first model that I saw that did that. It only took $600 to do. A team at Stanford generated a bunch of synthetic data, tuned Llama, and made Alpaca, billion parameter model. Or was - Maybe it was thirteen billion parameters. And it was so good. Like, I was just, like, on an airplane using it. I, - in many cases, I, like, you could not discern a ChatGPT versus an Alpaca result. And I figured if it was this easy to make a model, one, we have a whole new way of monetizing data for the first time. you can just, like, take really valuable data and turn it into a service in $600. and that cost will probably go down over time.Swyx [00:04:03]: When you - So sorry. when you say monetizing your data as, what eventually will become an MCP endpoint or as a training data for a model?Anjney Midha [00:04:12]: Yeah, training data for a model.Swyx [00:04:13]: Awesome.Anjney Midha [00:04:13]: Like, an abstract way of saying like, “Hey, I have this data.”Swyx [00:04:15]: Compress it into a model.Anjney Midha [00:04:16]: Like, it makes sense for me in my product, but, like, I could repackage it in the form of a model and sell it. And so it's just a whole new business model for the economy. It also, of course, provides, like, a way of following what Frontier Labs are doing, but in a way that, like, a single developer or a small team of developers can roll on their own. And so - Whenever you have an example of that, like a breakout app that's doing really well, and then some framework for imitating it with - in your own flavor, you have an immediate ecosystem of, like an immediate ecosystem, like, should arise because there's just a huge gap between the, like, decisions that the single company is making and all of the variations in those decisions that, like, a wider ecosystem can create themselves. And so then, you need a marketplace to, like, discover all of those, services and all of those products. There wasn't any place on the internet that, like, was like a home base for LLMs in terms of seeing how much they were being used and seeing who was using them and why.Swyx [00:05:29]: The closest would be Hugging Face.Anjney Midha [00:05:30]: Hugging Face was the closest at the time, yeah.Swyx [00:05:31]: They just started Hugging, like, a few years ago before that.Anjney Midha [00:05:34]: Yeah, and Hugging Face also didn't have the closed-source models.Swyx [00:05:37]: Yeah.Anjney Midha [00:05:38]: And they didn'- you couldn't use the models at the time. and there wasn't data about who was using them. There were, like, a bunch of differences between OpenRouter and Hugging Face, and those differences felt really critical to me, especially when I was just trying to learn about LLMs and, like, why people are choosing, like, Different little ones that are emerging over time.Discord, Open Models, and the Origins of OpenRouterSwyx [00:06:03]: Got it. And then, Ansh, no stranger to wanting more model diversity, at the time, you're a couple of years into your Anthropic journey, which we covered in the previous podcast as well. What was your introduction to Alex?Alex Atallah [00:06:16]: Well, the introduction was, I think, thirteen years before that.Swyx [00:06:20]: Oh.Alex Atallah [00:06:20]: But the OpenRouter handshake happened right over there, if you remember.Anjney Midha [00:06:23]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:06:24]: Which - So Alex and I, met, I believe as sophomores now, if I remember at the Stanford Review,Anjney Midha [00:06:32]: That's rightAlex Atallah [00:06:32]: Meeting for the first time.Anjney Midha [00:06:33]: I think so, yeah.Alex Atallah [00:06:35]: Yeah.Anjney Midha [00:06:35]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:06:35]: So Stanford Review was the libertarian newspaper on campus at Stanford that Peter Thiel started back in the day. And, whatever-- for whatever reason, I, Alex and I both showed up to one of the meetings, and I remember, the editor-chief was a mutual friend of ours. Lisa was really a really great editor-chief, where, part of an editor-chief's job is to assign responsibilities to people and make sure the work gets done. and I, I may be misremembering the details, but I remember wanting to. It was surprising to me that at the time there was no dedicated technology section in the newspaper.Alex Atallah [00:07:11]: YouSwyx [00:07:13]: Because it's political, right?Alex Atallah [00:07:14]: It is primarilySwyx [00:07:14]: Like, it's talkingAlex Atallah [00:07:15]: It originally started as like aAnjney Midha [00:07:16]: Yes.Swyx [00:07:17]: Yeah, states and all those things.Alex Atallah [00:07:17]: Correct.Swyx [00:07:18]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:07:18]: But it, - To take us back in time, you may remember this, but, there was this technology, legislation that was being debated called, the Net Neutrality Act. And net neutrality is, like, inherently this political concept, right? It's, it's about the regulation of - internet broadband access. And so there was a community of us who were technologists, but also debating the politics of the technology. And I thought the Review would be a great place - to, like, write about that. And I was working on, I think, a net neutrality article, and I remember proposing, “Well, maybe we should start a technology section.” And Alex was one of the only people who said, “Yes, that would be cool.” And said. I forget whether we ended up writing stuff together, but - that's when we first met,Alex Atallah [00:08:03]: Was 2011 or twelve. I forget which year it was. It was one of those.Anjney Midha [00:08:09]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:08:09]: It was at Old Union, if I remember correctly.Alex Atallah [00:08:11]: That's where we used to meet. But, along the way, Alex and I have had a chance to, To hang out often. And probably the time when we had the most professional overlap was when I was running the platform at Discord, and it had become this explosive platform for cryptoSwyx [00:08:32]: YeahAlex Atallah [00:08:32]: And NFTs in the middle of the pandemic.Swyx [00:08:35]: Which also, by the way, you were in charge of safety and security as well, right?Alex Atallah [00:08:38]: I was the head of platform, which meant all of the crypto - the DAO and NFT launch security debugging fell onSwyx [00:08:45]: And their phishing and.Alex Atallah [00:08:47]: The phishing, the social engineering attacks, the katana DDoS that we were getting hit by. but it's around the time I first started teaching security at scale at Stanford, CS 153. And Alex was on the, - at OpenSea at the time, and I was trying to figure out how we could defend against all these attacks that we were. Like, and at peak, I forget, if you remember how much NFT volume was running throughSwyx [00:09:10]: DiscordAlex Atallah [00:09:10]: Discord, but it was, like, a meaningful amount of, like, it was, like, several billion dollars in NFT volume of GMV, so to speak, were running through the platform, and it was all coming from OpenSea. It was these, like, buy, sell,Swyx [00:09:20]: TheAlex Atallah [00:09:21]: ServersSwyx [00:09:21]: The D in DAO is Discord.Alex Atallah [00:09:25]: Yes. And so that's when I think we had hung out professionally. But a year after that, OpenAI gave Discord early access to GPT. Sorry, three. No, it was five. Yeah, five, which is the RL version of three. And that's around the time we made a Discord bot with, OpenAI for internal deployment, and that's when I realized we would need. Like, since I was part of the deployment team.Anjney Midha [00:09:50]: What was the use case?Alex Atallah [00:09:51]: There were two that were. And there's, there's a post now called “Discord is Your Place for AI with Friends” that somebody sent me recently that I wrote, and published in twenty-three. But There were two use cases. One was Clyde, which was the - like, a party friend inside of Discord that could help you set up your Discord server and talk to you about onboarding and get your friends to hang out more. and then there was content moderation. And one of the realizations we had with content moderation was - it would refuse to moderate. Like, it would just refuse our prompts because the The training was. We were very early in the training era, and it would just. Our prompts would trigger it, its, like, guardrails. And we told OpenAI, “Hey, guys, we need access to the weights because if we're gonna be doing content moderation at scale, we had 250 million monthly active users, we need more reliability that the model will do what we need it to.” And they said, “Well, sorry, guys, that's not how this works. We're a closed-source company.” And so that was my first realization that we needed open models, and the enterprises would need more control over capabilities, and then ultimately would need some control plane or management system to orchestrate these open models. But there weren't no good - there were no good open alternatives until maybeAlex Atallah [00:11:10]: Six months later when Llama came out. And six months after that, I led the series A into Mistral, which was started by Guillaume and the Llama team. And - That, - Around that time is when I remember hearing about Alex launching OpenRouter and going, “These worlds are gonna collide, and I don't know when it'll make sense to team up.” But Alex was so early and could see. I think he was totally right about this ecosystem starting with Llama that then needed, like, a, an easy layer to manage for, especially for. I was approaching it from the enterprise perspective because I had been that, like, the. As the VP of platform at Discord, it was my job to ensure that when we deployed models to, like, 250 million users, they did what we wanted them to. And that was very hard, because if you outsourced it to the labs and they controlled the guardrails and their guardrails are their safety policies. Forbid the model from responding to your prompts. That was quite catastrophic.Swyx [00:12:05]: Yeah. But what, a moderation is the thing that they want to support. And obviously, beyond that, they would - OpenAI would work with you, presumably to give you a moderation endpoint, which they offer for free.Alex Atallah [00:12:16]: It was an interesting use case, that - So they did give us a moderation endpoint. However, as you guys know, every Discord server is like a mini deployment of itself. And so the use case was instead of having human moderators that have to interpret the norms of the community, you just give the, - Often, like every, subreddit, Discord servers, public ones have their own rules that the user, the users create.Swyx [00:12:41]: Oh, yeah. We run the LinkedIn Discord in. Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:12:43]: And then humans used to read those norms and then enforce it every day manually, like observing each message in these communities. And these communities have like millions of users. So we had a 5,000+ person team globally in the, on the Discord content moderation team. These are outsourced contractors who had a really tough job. And so the idea was instead, if you could give the norms of that server To the LLM, then the LLM would do custom moderation for that server. It's almost like a, like context moderation for that server. And many of those servers' norms just violated OpenAI's rules. And so - It was like we had our own custom eval. So each server had its own custom eval. But Discord-- at the time, OpenAI's evals, we were all soAlex Atallah [00:13:28]: Primitive in our thinking about how to deploy these LLMs that often the training prompts were super handed. It said, “Oh, anything about Harry Potter, anything that has trademarked content, don'- refuse.” And if it was a fan - Harry Potter fan community, this is a real use case, that had content moderation, the LLM would just refuse.Swyx [00:13:48]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:13:49]: And that was just not precise enough.Anjney Midha [00:13:52]: Another one that we heard was like if someone was trying to write like a detective story, and there's one chapter with a lot of violence, like maybe someoneAlex Atallah [00:14:01]: RightAnjney Midha [00:14:01]: Like kills someone, the LLMs would just refuse to, like, help with that part of the story.Alex Atallah [00:14:07]: Yeah.Anjney Midha [00:14:07]: And then - like, we used to be like, okay, this is not like structurally inherent to LLMs. There must be, like, some choice out there so that I can, like, switch to another model, when I'm getting, like, a refusal or a bad result from the main one that I have. And that, like, tension also drove me for a marketplace.Why “One Model Wins” Was the Wrong BetSwyx [00:14:28]: Yeah. I think that is well accepted now. What was it like back then when you were raising or, starting this? did people get it? what was the, some of the struggles? I like getting stories out of him about how other VCs don't get it. So like anything you wanna, talk about, now - Let's, let's call it, that the early journey of OpenRouter is done, right? You can obviously talk about some of the early days stuff.Anjney Midha [00:14:54]: Well, I was gonna say that, like, the biggest objection we got is big model win, which is - all of theSwyx [00:15:03]: Scaling laws.Anjney Midha [00:15:04]: Huh?Swyx [00:15:04]: Scaling laws.Anjney Midha [00:15:05]: Yeah, scaling laws, and natural network effects are just gonna accrue to one company, which will be - It'll be a Google-style monopoly, just like how Google won the search market, by a large margin, and you'll just be fighting for scraps at the end. That was probably the biggest objection we got. it is interesting that Google won the search engine race with such a huge margin. I think, like, had there been more interesting benchmarks or had, like, search engines been, - had people, like, seen them a little bit more like LLMs where they're services that you can build companies on top of, that might not have been the case. but LLMs don't merely have a user interface. They're also, like, ways of building entirely new businesses. And, a Google-level monopoly would be like the Dutch East India Company times, quadrillion in magnitude because the whole economy ends up, like, depending on the one monopoly as well. So it didn't seem like would be a really crazy outcome if that happened. And it's also less likely because the economics of, like, creating good competitors are much, like, much more decentralizable.Alex Atallah [00:16:25]: Everything Alex said is true, And I came at it from a completely different perspective, whichSwyx [00:16:31]: Yes, this is why we're here.Alex Atallah [00:16:32]: The scaling laws were never - In my mind, were always a feature, not a bug for why OpenRouter would be very valuable. Because, I was one of the first investors in Anthropic, and it was obvious to me that other researchers in our friends - I went to grad school for machine learning, and I just had a lot of friends in the ML community who it was very obvious to us that the bitter lesson holds. And so I was like, “Oh, fantastic. Now we have at least two proof points that compute scaling works.” It was OpenAI and Anthropic. and by the time I think we decided to team up on OpenRouter, I had already invested in Mistral and Black Forest Labs and Luma. So there was multiple model companies and teams that I was, working with.Why Model Labs Struggle With DistributionSwyx [00:17:14]: But you did other modalities, whereas this is literallyAlex Atallah [00:17:16]: Across different modalities, yesSwyx [00:17:17]: Text.Alex Atallah [00:17:18]: Exactly. And it was so obvious to me that an ecosystem of different kinds of models were being created, and that this whole narrative of, like, Only one company will dominate like Google was, well, like maybe true, but one, I don't believe that. But two, there was so much extraordinary innovation happening across several different research teams. But the shared problem I was noticing across all of them was often, the research teams were fantastic at figuring out how to reason about new capabilities. They think in terms of capabilities, but never - like, are not developer mindset-oriented. Like, what happens after the training is done and the checkpoint comes out? Like, you'd be shocked how, like, similar the early training teams at OpenAI, sorry, Anthropic, BFL, Mistral, were in their, like, default approach to. Taking their research out of the, lab and scaling their impact, which is often, oh, the checkpoint is done, put it out as an API, done, and then there'd be crickets. in the case of Claude, the first Claude checkpoint was done a year before they released it internally. And then ChatGPT came out, and we decided, okay, yes, it's a good idea to release a Claude version externally.Alex Atallah [00:18:34]: And they had no plan, like no plan for how to get developers to try it out. And so if you go to the Claude one blog post, you'll notice there are, like, three developer examples for users of the API, and one is a Discord bot, and the second is Vivian, my wife's startup called Juny Learning, ‘- And then there was, like, Notion, because these were all friends of, like, the Anthropic Because that's how - like, last minute the planning was around, hey, once the model's done training, how do you get it out to the world? There was no distribution platform that understood what developers needed, all the key management, provisioning, like, simple, like, endpoint management, versioning control. Like, all these things that the scientists and researchers go, “ that's plumbing. I don't really think about it.”Swyx [00:19:15]: Implementation detail.Alex Atallah [00:19:16]: Right. And instead, Alex came at it from that perspective. And so, it was so obvious to me that, like, every single lab I was funding would spend - like, literally sometimes billions of dollars into training, and then a checkpoint would be done, and there'd be crickets, like, during early access because they're like, “Oh, that's right.”Alex Atallah [00:19:35]: It's hard to use a checkpoint to make anything. You need a whole bunch of plumbing around it to make it usable by a developer. And so by the - I think - it was so obvious to me that a distribution platform like OpenRouter was critical to have in the ecosystem if we wanted there to be competition to Google. Like, unless-- ‘cause with Google, DeepMind is done training a new checkpoint, and then they push a button, and it gets blasted out across all their surfaces from Google Docs to,Swyx [00:20:01]: Everywhere, even if I don't want it.Alex Atallah [00:20:02]: Everywhere. You wanna know about, like, on Android, like, overnight, they can deploy a new checkpoint to, like, a billion devices, right? And that invisible infra advantage, distribution advantage, most people don't realize, but until OpenRouter showed up, - you had to think about all of that yourself as a model lab. And it was very daunting. at Anthropic, I think it took, well, more than twelve months to get to our first 10 million in revenue. And in contrast with Black Forest Labs, I remember the early days, you guys had a conversation with the BFL team, and, it was so simple for OpenRouter to say, “Oh, no problem. Like, the day you launch, we can send 1 million developers to you.” that was crazy. That was like a step function change in, like, an hour.Swyx [00:20:46]: Is that a real number, a million?Alex Atallah [00:20:47]: I,Swyx [00:20:48]: Okay. All right.Alex Atallah [00:20:48]: I think today it's, like, 4 million. How many developers are on OpenRouter today?Anjney Midha [00:20:52]: Over ten,Alex Atallah [00:20:54]: Yeah.Anjney Midha [00:20:54]: Over 10 million, but, like, it's, it's hard to, youAlex Atallah [00:20:59]: I, yeah, I don't know how to. Yeah.Anjney Midha [00:21:00]: We do a lot of, like, account duping work, but, noAlex Atallah [00:21:04]: If you could get 1,000 developers, just to put in context If you get 1,000 developers who try the model on day one after you release it and just, like, do inference and give you feedback, that's a thousandAnjney Midha [00:21:15]: That's hugeAlex Atallah [00:21:16]: More developers than they knew how to get to on their own.Swyx [00:21:19]: Well, BFL had a reputation, but yes.Alex Atallah [00:21:21]: They had one in Stable Diffusion.Swyx [00:21:22]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:21:23]: And with Mistral, I don't know if you guys remember, but the first checkpoint they released was, like, torrents. It was, like, torrent weights.Swyx [00:21:31]: Yeah, they just put up a magnet link.Alex Atallah [00:21:33]: Yeah, there was no API.Anjney Midha [00:21:34]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:21:34]: Because they didn'- they weren't infra people.Alex Atallah [00:21:37]: ? Like, it's like, okay, download these weights, and you guys go figure out how to host it.Swyx [00:21:39]: Well, he has a story on his side, yeah.Anjney Midha [00:21:41]: Yeah, in addition to the, like, building a really good developer experience around it, the marketing that we do on, like, for different models is totally different and perceived totally differentlyAlex Atallah [00:21:54]: RightAnjney Midha [00:21:54]: From the marketing that a model lab does for itself.Alex Atallah [00:21:56]: Yes, 1,000%.Anjney Midha [00:21:57]: Right? We are like a, neutral layer looking at this market like it's a big dark room with all the corners completely obscure to users, and users are walking into the room and, like, feeling aroundAlex Atallah [00:22:09]: YeahAnjney Midha [00:22:09]: And trying to figure out what objects to grab off the tables and, like, build into, their companies. And it's just an insane way of working. Like, models are not products where you can just enumerate all their features onto a web page. They're all black boxes, including the open weight ones. So you need to, like, shine lights on all corners of this room, so that people can see what makes this model good, and you need the company shining that light to be a neutral third party, which is what we specialize in. So the, like. It'- In addition to developer experience, there's also, like, a very important, like, marketing and product packaging componentAlex Atallah [00:22:50]: YeahAnjney Midha [00:22:50]: And a way of, like, routing and discovering models becomes, like, critical to your market as a provider or a model lab or a server tool and more in the future.“Just a Wrapper”: Why VCs Misunderstood OpenRouterAlex Atallah [00:23:03]: And this value, to your earlier point about how many VCs, like, just don't. One of my biggest frustrations is that venture capitalists, many of them, like, just don't have any operating experience in the field. so unlike a traditional investor who's just maybe come up through the ranks as, like, a associate working on financial modeling or maybe hasn't been a real operator in the field for, like, more than ten years, which is a big part of the industry now, I had just arrived at a16z, like, a year after running the platform. And so I knew what the challenges were of, like, building a real - great developer experience and like, being able to create a working piece of software with a model. And there were a few, I won't name names, but there were investors who were looking at OpenRouter, and, felt at the time, like, when I would compare notes with people, that it was just, I quote unquote, “just a marketplace.”Swyx [00:23:59]: Yeah, just a thin layer, just aAlex Atallah [00:24:00]: CorrectSwyx [00:24:00]: JustAlex Atallah [00:24:01]: A wrapper or whatever on other people's APIs. And I was like, “You have no idea how strategic the value that OpenRouter has created by being able to orchestrate even three.” APIs in production. The amount of both engineering work and community design that goes into getting that live and running in production at the scale the OpenRouter team had started just doesn't happen by default. And that was one of the things that stood out to me about Alex from the earliest days. Like, he just understood, like, - from a systems perspective, like, how do you get these flywheels going? Like, that stood out to me with OpenSea when we were working together on the NFT integration at Discord. Like, Alex had a level of community-- like, systems thinking on how you get these flywheels going that most scientists and machine learning people just don'tAlex Atallah [00:24:48]: Think of. Like, we often think in terms of training.Swyx [00:24:52]: It's a linear stage.Alex Atallah [00:24:53]: It's this linear pipeline.Swyx [00:24:53]: There's no loop yet.Alex Atallah [00:24:54]: Yeah. It wasn't until much later that the modern context feedback loop cycle really got standardized in the industry. But at the time, if you remember, machine learning was like. Like, mostly we did a lot of ML, like, when I was in grad school on a laptop. So you just, like, download a dataset, ran some ablations, and you looked at the loss curves, and you're like, “Great, I made AI.” And the idea that you have to, like, deploy those capabilities, collect feedback trajectories, then, like, put those into a continuous loop, like, came much later. And it was very counterintuitive to the - like, the traditional AI mindset. I do remember doing the investment phase for, OpenRouter, I just didn't try and educate a bunch of other VCs on why it was not just a marketplace. I was like, “ what? I'm just gonna invest.”Anjney Midha [00:25:41]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:25:41]: And I'm going to, like, take the opportunity to partner with Alex, and if - no other VCs get it, that's totally fine. ‘Cause at the time, - it was not obvious, I think, to several of the investors that, like, OpenRouter was not more than just a wrapper around APIs. And - that infuriated me. And I was like, “ what? I don't have time to debate you. I'm - we're gonna, we're gonna invest.” And then I think, like, a month later, Matt Murphy marked it up by 10x. Like, - I think. I forget what the exact money was and so on, but, to his credit, Menlo Ventures realized, “Okay, there's much more strategic value here as well.” Maybe you didn't hear all these conversations behind the scenes But that frustrated me a lot. there's a lot of this, like, opining about wrappers. and if you're like, “Oh, an app is just a wrapper on a model,” then, like. And, OpenRouter is, like, this wrapper on top of other APIs, and this is the most stupid, reductive framework.Alex Atallah [00:26:31]: And so it's clearly somebody who has no experience deploying product at scale.Swyx [00:26:34]: It's the thing you dismiss other things with. Like, you're a - everyone's a wrapper on everything, right? Like, and there's, there's some Some wrappers have value.Alex Atallah [00:26:40]: Investors are wrappers and LPs, right?Alex Atallah [00:26:42]: Like venture capitalists. So, yeah, it's all wrappers down, all down to bare metal, I guess, and like energy.Swyx [00:26:46]: Yeah, there - When I started the whole AI engineer, I guess, the coining, in 2023, like, that was, like, the number one pushback is that this is no value. You should just train models.Anjney Midha [00:26:56]: Right.Swyx [00:26:57]: And, yeah, obviously this is, like. you guys are one of the testaments to the fact that you can build very valuable wrappers, but also very valuable model companies.Alex Atallah [00:27:06]: It's so, hard to be. Like, the day a model launches, the fact that you have an OpenRouter, endpoint for that model frequently at the top of Hacker News on day one, people don't realize the amount of work that goes into accomplishing that. And OpenRouter used. Like, that would happen over and over again, and I remember going, “People have no idea how hard that is.”Alex Atallah [00:27:30]: That's not.Swyx [00:27:31]: Yeah, we've covered some of the inference engineering that goes behind,Alex Atallah [00:27:34]: YesSwyx [00:27:34]: Some of - with Base Ten and all those. Well, today you have, all those, like, cool code name things that people guess what Oxy Alpha is and all those things. But, like, I guess one of the things that you're teasing is, how do you get that initial flywheel going, right? Because today you have your scale and your reputation, all these things, so obviously you - you're driving immense distribution. But when you were early on, when it's mostlyBootstrapping OpenRouter Through CommunityAlex Atallah [00:27:55]: The bootstrap, yeah.Swyx [00:27:56]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:27:56]: What was the bootstrap like?Anjney Midha [00:27:58]: To bring it back to early Discord days, I think we, like, initially connected with. This is an OpenSea story, technically. But, and we initially connected when you were at Discord, and we talked about, like, - the Axie Infinity server.Alex Atallah [00:28:13]: Oh, yes. Yes.Anjney Midha [00:28:14]: This server was, like, the biggest server at theAlex Atallah [00:28:17]: YeahAnjney Midha [00:28:17]: At Discord.Alex Atallah [00:28:18]: That's right.Anjney Midha [00:28:19]: And you were like, constantly bumping up theAlex Atallah [00:28:22]: The limits on the server. Oh, my GodAnjney Midha [00:28:24]: Of how many people could be in the server.Swyx [00:28:24]: For those who don't know, like, 10% of Philippines was Axie.Alex Atallah [00:28:29]: Was on that server. That's a big hit.Swyx [00:28:31]: It was, like, a meaningful contributor to the GDP of the country.Alex Atallah [00:28:33]: It was an NFT, like, crypto game, but itSwyx [00:28:35]: It was like a Pokémon breeding thing.Anjney Midha [00:28:36]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:28:36]: Yeah. Similar. Yeah. There was battling, there was breeding, and then there was, like, a marketplace for trading.Swyx [00:28:43]: Earn as well.Alex Atallah [00:28:45]: Yeah, earn. And, like, the graphics were really cute and fun, and you like, you get emotional about your Axie that you make. So to, like, start a community like that, which we had to do many times at OpenSea with every early project, for us to create a marketplace for it, we need to make sure that the, like, the community wants it.Anjney Midha [00:29:09]: Right.Alex Atallah [00:29:09]: And it's like building something that people want and going and telling them about it. Like, you can do that on a one basis, but there's way higher leverage to do that in a community where everyone can talk to you at the same time. So we spent a lot of time, like, building things that the community really wanted. We did the same thing for OpenRouter. And, like, the Axie community was one of, like, a zillion communities we did that with. And Anj, like, saw us doing it and. ‘Cause you could just see people sharing OpenSea links constantly in that Discord. Like, users sharing links is a really clear indicator that, like, something important is going on. So we spent, a lot of time, like, first figuring out what the gap is in the technology that people care about. Like, what was the actual problem that needs to be solved? in early LLM days, it was, OpenAI refusing to finish the prompt or,Anjney Midha [00:30:09]: YeahAlex Atallah [00:30:10]: To, like, complete the task. It was also.Anjney Midha [00:30:13]: Inability to customize models. and so there are communities that, like are just completely blocked on that issue, and those are the communities that are most useful to learn about and dive into and explore.Alex Atallah [00:30:28]: Something that really struck me at that time, - as I was just hearing your talk, I remember noting - you may not remember this, but we - we had these, like working, Zoom calls that we were doing a sprint around for, like this OpenSea integration with Discord. and, we'd, we'd - it was myself, my engineering team. I think you were there. And I remember, Alex, in the middle of one of those calls, just like there was like silence. we were all like, “Oh, yeah, this totally makes sense. Let's do this.” And then there's - every, like everybody aligned. And Alex was like, “No, this makes no sense to me.” And everyone's - I remember going, “What? Like, it works. Like, you click on a link and this, then it bounces you out to, like, OpenSea.” And he was like, “It's not a good user experience. Yeah, we should not do this.” And I remember going, he was the only one person out of all of us to raise his hand and go, yes, it made sense from a technical implementation perspective. Like, we were bouncing the user out into the, into OpenSea. And so it kinda checked the box of the product manager's requirements on both sides. But Alex went one step further and was like, “ what would be better, guys? If we just embedded the experience right here inside of Discord so the link opened up as an embedded iframe, and you can just check out right there.”Alex Atallah [00:31:47]: And not one person on the call, and there's like seven of us who had met, like, week after week.Swyx [00:31:52]: And it's the guy who doesn't work for Discord.Alex Atallah [00:31:53]: And it's the guy who doesn't work for Discord.Swyx [00:31:55]: Like, technically, you benefit if they bounce.Alex Atallah [00:31:57]: Exactly. And that was, like, adversarial. To keep the user inside of Discord would be adversarial to OpenSea. And yet Alex put that user experience first. And I was like, “That's special.”Swyx [00:32:08]: Wow.Alex Atallah [00:32:08]: Because it's very hard to have somebody who's technical like Alex and understands the developer flow, but also understands the best user experience and wants to prioritize that. And that's two sides of the flywheel that if you can get spinning, like is often hard to stop. And you just reminded me, like that one was one of those moments where I go, I - I realized I gotta be better at user experience because I should have been the one who came up with that, and I didn't. And I learned from you. And, I think that went into one of our case studies for the PM training program at Discord.Swyx [00:32:34]: Whoa.Alex Atallah [00:32:36]: I don't know if it there is Because ofSwyx [00:32:38]: You need an Alex is the conclusion.Alex Atallah [00:32:40]: Yeah. You need an Alex. And this is why I'm not, nobody should be surprised why Stripe decided like they had to buy OpenRouter because it's a really rare combination of people who understand the machine learning community, the developer experience, and the user experience. And putting all that together has resulted in this extraordinary scale that very few other marketplaces have been able to achieveWindow AI, BYOM, and Finding the Right Form FactorSwyx [00:33:02]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:33:02]: Over the last, five years.Swyx [00:33:04]: Yeah. Well, we should talk about the other reasons for acquisitions, whichAlex Atallah [00:33:07]: Yes, we should.Swyx [00:33:07]: You've written about. I wanna proceed somewhat chronologically as well. So - there is a point that, one of the questions that, Dave from H of Zero sent in was, when did it - really started to work? And you brought up Mixtral. I don't know if you wanna bring up that story.Alex Atallah [00:33:22]: Oh, yeah.Swyx [00:33:23]: Which obviously you overlap with, so.Anjney Midha [00:33:26]: Yeah, the MoE was. I don't know when. there's no like one moment where I was like, “Oh, this is, officially starting to work.” It wasSwyx [00:33:36]: The moment where you had a Chrome extension, like, really super early on.Anjney Midha [00:33:39]: Oh, yeah. But, well, - yeah. So before OpenRouter, I wanted to, like, explore a bring-your-own-model experiment. And,Swyx [00:33:47]: Which anyone familiar with crypto is like, yeah, Phantom and all these things.Anjney Midha [00:33:50]: Yeah. So it felt like doing a MetaMask analogy for AI would be a fun way of exploring that. And at the time, there were no AI apps. There were probably as many AI apps that were, like, hitting AI - like, hitting an LLM via an API call as there were, like, games just doing it in JavaScript. like there was a, there was a moment in time where it could have been the case that web apps call LLMs through the browser, like through some desktopAlex Atallah [00:34:27]: Yes.Anjney Midha [00:34:27]: Managed app that is controlled by the user. and of course, there are like, I think, many reasons that did not happen. But back when the days were that primordial, I built a Chrome extension called Window AISwyx [00:34:43]: With Plasmo.Anjney Midha [00:34:44]: With Plasmo.Swyx [00:34:45]: I had come across early on, and I was like, “Who's gonna use this?” You did.Anjney Midha [00:34:49]: Plasmo had a couple, like, I think Phantom was using it. there were some other, like real companies using it.Alex Atallah [00:34:56]: It was like a shim.Swyx [00:34:57]: React for Chrome extension. It compiles to allAnjney Midha [00:35:00]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:35:00]: I see.Anjney Midha [00:35:00]: Like Next.js for Chrome extensions.Swyx [00:35:01]: Next.js, Next.js.Alex Atallah [00:35:02]: Okay.Anjney Midha [00:35:03]: And yeah, built Window AI on top of it. The creator of Plasmo, like started contributing code to Window AI, in GitHub, and that turned out to be Louis VicchiAlex Atallah [00:35:15]: Oh, you'Anjney Midha [00:35:15]: Who is the founder of OpenRouter.Alex Atallah [00:35:17]: That's right. You have told me this is how you met Louis. Yes.Anjney Midha [00:35:19]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:35:19]: Okay.Anjney Midha [00:35:20]: So, that allowed users to like configure which model they wanted to use for a web page in their browser, and then, like the app would just call out to that model when it needed to do things. not the right form factor for LLMs, but, it's like fun experiment. You learn a lot, and like I open sourced it. And the main learning is like, okay, this has to be an API, and it has to look a little bit - like, there has to be more of a developer experience here and more of a discovery experience as well. Like, I don't know where to use these models, and a little Chrome extension is not gonna help me discover. It's not enough real estate. I need more space. I need visuals. I need graphs. I need, examples. I need images. I need to, like, I need to be able to, like explore both as a human and as an agent.Crypto, Midjourney, and the Early Generative AI EcosystemAlex Atallah [00:36:10]: Yeah.Anjney Midha [00:36:10]: So that's how OpenRouter came to be.Alex Atallah [00:36:13]: A meta point that.Alex Atallah [00:36:16]: I think is underappreciated, but Alex is reminding me, is that we were quite lucky that we were so. we were, like, adjacent to the crypto community in those days. Because in hindsight, crypto ended up being like a dress rehearsal for generative models, right? If you think about the Axie experience, Alex is totally right, there were not that many AI apps at the time. And while I was dealing-- my job was to be the head of platform at Discord, which meant to be a general purpose place for communities and friends to create-- for developers to create apps and bots and, other services that could be deployed across Discord. And while 80% of the attention at the time was being spent on crypto, because that's where all the NFT volume was, there was, like, twenty percent of my time I was spending with a friend, who would get hotbot with me and ask me for. We would play Magic: The Gathering on weekends, and he was working on a little Discord bot that could take a text input and turn it into an image, and it was called Midjourney. YouSwyx [00:37:15]: Is that David?Alex Atallah [00:37:15]: It was David Holz.Alex Atallah [00:37:16]: He was a good friend. And David and I have both been failed ARVR founders, in the before that. And, I remember this. Midjourney was one of the fastest-growing communities we had after Axie Infinity started to peter off. And many of the, like, the abstractions and the infrastructure decisions we made to scale Axie happened just in time because they. Axie did this and then fell off a cliff. And then as Midjourney was taking off, we, like, explicitly decided to help David make the server, the Midjourney server, as the primary place for interaction with the model, because it was very hard for people to understand how to use the model if they couldn't see other people using it and copy them. And so the single-player Midjourney web app on its own, like midjourney.com, had, like, terrible retention because people would show up, they'd see this empty field. It's like E 2, and they would type in, like, cat or dog. And it was, like, paralyzing for them to have this blank canvas that they had to fill because they'd never used an AI model before. But instead, in a Discord server, you could see other people using it and riff off of their prompt, and the engagement was off the charts. And so scaling, Midjourney from zero to, like, 10 million monthly actives was a much smoother approach Axie Infinity. And so,Swyx [00:38:29]: Don't forget the best of four pictures, and you choose one.Alex Atallah [00:38:31]: The best, yeah, and then the other, weSwyx [00:38:32]: Which is the feedback loop.Alex Atallah [00:38:33]: The RLHF feedback loop, which, by the way, separately, like, Tom Brown, David and I used to play Magic: The Gathering on weekends. And so, like, it was one group of friends would hang out, and we'd. Like, these concepts were all being discussed all the time. But, there was.Alex Atallah [00:38:47]: I think there were few of us who bridged both the crypto worlds and the AI worlds. And compared to crypto, where it was - the question was always, what's the use case, for this technology? There was never any need to ask that for AI because it's, like, the use case was so visceral. It was like, I can create now anything at - I can imagine. I can write novels, I can code. And the infrastructure that those of us who believed in the distributed systems, like, value of crypto, like the censorship resistance part, found this use case that was explosive. And I think between Midjourney, the, Claude was a Discord bot launch, that we were using internally as an LLM. ElevenLabs had a TTS model that we had on Discord as well. Like, Discord became this petri dish for, like, early apps to innovate. And I don't think it's a coincidence that they found a home there before OpenRouter gave the world, like, a public home store or, like, a, storefront. Discord was this, like, almost petri dish storefront that - had, like, piggybacked on the infra we'd built for crypto communities. And then I think Alex was one of the first people to realize, wait a minute, like, these apps need their own home, on the internet. And then OpenRouter, to me, was a continuation of that community's needs. And of course, there was the crazy distribution that you enabled for a lot of these developers.Why OpenRouter Couldn't Just Live Inside DiscordSwyx [00:40:07]: So then my question is, how come you were. My perception is OpenRouter is not that Discord-centric, right? You have a Discord.Anjney Midha [00:40:14]: Yeah.Swyx [00:40:14]: And you use it to engage your community, but it's not like Midjourney where, like, no, that is like the primary way people experience OpenRouter.Anjney Midha [00:40:21]: Yeah, Midjourney, like, it really helps to see visually really quickly how people are using the model and how to prompt it.Swyx [00:40:29]: Yeah.Anjney Midha [00:40:29]: And I think that is partly why the server was so critical. It's like it is the user experience. It adds a ton.Swyx [00:40:36]: Yes.Anjney Midha [00:40:37]: And you can go the whole mile with just, like, prompting via Midjourney, like, the, via the Midjourney Discord server, getting your images and then sharing them and having fun. For OpenRouter, for LLMs, like, you need a lot of user experience around LLMs to make them, like, really usable.Swyx [00:40:54]: Charge point.Anjney Midha [00:40:55]: And yeah.Anjney Midha [00:40:57]: The, like, seeing the examples of other people is also not as useful because it's a lot of stuff to read. It takes a long time.Swyx [00:41:03]: Yeah.Anjney Midha [00:41:04]: You need, like, based integration. Not possible to do in a Discord server. You need, Or technic- it's possible. I shouldn't say that. It's just not a great developer experience. you need, like, - you need governance for. At the point where you got based integration, now you need governance for managing the LLMs that have access to it, the data policies, which teams. All that stuff needs a lot more than a Discord server can provide. So it's justSwyx [00:41:30]: YeahAnjney Midha [00:41:30]: It's not the right.Alex Atallah [00:41:32]: Well, in addition, you're not wrong, but also there's the very important distinction that, Midjourney was an end user application.Swyx [00:41:40]: Right.Alex Atallah [00:41:40]: And, that's why Discord, which has 250 million monthly end consumers, made, it made sense for Discord to be a host for that application experience. What I knew was gonna happen soon after Midjourney found explosive product-market fit, because we. I think when Midjourney launched, from launch to $100 million revenue run rate, it was less than eight months. And shortly thereafter, Stable Diffusion launched. And, all of us used to hang out in the Discord server. There, I think it was the,Swyx [00:42:13]: The Stability Discord?Alex Atallah [00:42:14]: It was theSwyx [00:42:16]: Yeah, LAION.Alex Atallah [00:42:16]: Yeah, the LAION Discord server.Swyx [00:42:17]: The image community that spawned Stable Diffusion.Alex Atallah [00:42:19]: The image community. Yeah. And so when Stable Diffusion came out, I realized- Oh, now other people can build their own Midjourney.Alex Atallah [00:42:27]: Because until then, Midjourney did not have an API, so they were a stack company, right? They were training their own models, and they were deploying them as an application. But if you wanted to build your own Midjourney, there was no API of that quality. and I think E two was still quite primitive. Like, Midjourney had great quality. And then when Stable Diffusion came out, suddenly there was this new person who - there was - this new capability in the world, which is a developer could create their own Midjourney. And that, I think, created the need for something like OpenRouter, because then you need an API to. If you - if you had the creativity of David Holz and you had Stable Diffusion as the model and you wanted to put these things together, how could you do that without having to figure out how to host the weights? And what OpenRouter, - the shape of OpenRouter enabled is that. Right? When you have open model alternatives to closed applications, OpenRouter's value in the world becomes extraordinary because now any developer can just show up and use theStable Diffusion and the Need for a Model API LayerSwyx [00:43:20]: You just love model diversity.Anjney Midha [00:43:21]: Did you just say the shape of OpenRouter?Alex Atallah [00:43:23]: Oh, no.Anjney Midha [00:43:25]: Were you in cloud? What is this the real Han?Alex Atallah [00:43:26]: I've been, I've been - I'm, I'm misaligned now. I've been overtrained. I've been using Cloud way too much, haven't I?Swyx [00:43:34]: Claude-ish is what people would say.Alex Atallah [00:43:35]: Claude-ish. Oh, God, I gotta untrain myself.Swyx [00:43:38]: Okay. - And I just wanna cap off the Mistral side. my TLDR is there was a Mistral price war, is what they called it, right? Like, round about NeurIPS is twenty-three or twenty-four.Mistral and the Birth of the Inference MarketplaceAnjney Midha [00:43:47]: Yes. DecemberSwyx [00:43:48]: They launched, the Mistral 8x7B, and like the price went down like 80%.Anjney Midha [00:43:54]: Yeah.Swyx [00:43:54]: To me, that's very positive because it's like the first, like, real competition to host Mistral. Is there more?Anjney Midha [00:44:01]: Yeah, that was. I'm, like, trying to remember it, all the things that happened. It. Like, we saw that model come out and immediately saw people say that it was the best model in the world.Alex Atallah [00:44:15]: Yes.Anjney Midha [00:44:15]: Like, this was, to my knowledge, the first time an open weights model was called that in real seriousness.Swyx [00:44:22]: It's hype, right? Is it?Anjney Midha [00:44:25]: It was hype. It was hype. It was also, like, hype from AI influencers at the time. And there were many examples where it was, like, outperforming four. So people really wanted to try it out and see, is this gonna be true for me too? And if so, at what price? And, the, like, inference landscape was really messy.Alex Atallah [00:44:49]: Yes.Anjney Midha [00:44:50]: We cleaned it up. - it allowed, like, providers to compete on price, so we could give you just the best price in one spot. And so it was, I think, the first clear example of, like, a provider marketplace working in a way that adds value to end developers.Alex Atallah [00:45:08]: Sean, you may not remember this, but I think we met for the first time a few days after Mistral came out at NeurIPSAnjney Midha [00:45:15]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:45:15]: At a luncheon.Swyx [00:45:16]: Yeah. That's where I also met BFL as well. Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:45:18]: And Guillaume was there.Swyx [00:45:19]: Yeah.Anjney Midha [00:45:19]: I was at NeurIPS at that time.Alex Atallah [00:45:20]: You were there too. And, we had just announced the Mistral investment, and I remember Guillaume was over there, and I remember turning to Guillaume and asking him, Like, “Is it is all the. Like, how are you feeling after the launch of Mistral and seven B?” And, him in his typical French fashion was like, “ it's a, it's an okay model. It's not that good.” And I was like. It was so, in contrast. But I remember him also saying that part of the reason he felt a lot of people Thought that it was better than four was because of the speed. - it was an MoE model that they had, like, absolutely figured out how to make super efficient. It was on the Pareto frontier. And this is an important thing about LLMs, right? Sometimes when they're faster, you think they're smarter, even though, like, if you did, N of, these common, like, evals that are - you do seven tries, and I don't remember. I think we should go back and figure out what the data says, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out, oh, on an N of seven attempts, four was smarter on evals, but the perception of on, like, or correctness would be smarter or more accurate. But, people, like, from a human preference perspective felt that it was faster because it - or smarter because it's so fast.Swyx [00:46:36]: Yeah. And most queries do not take that levelAlex Atallah [00:46:39]: Don't take that. That's true.Swyx [00:46:40]: Right? So this is the start of humans as routerAlex Atallah [00:46:42]: Yes.Swyx [00:46:42]: Which then eventually becomes OpenRouter as router of like theAlex Atallah [00:46:45]: Oh, that's interesting way to think about it. Yeah.Swyx [00:46:47]: Like, because humans are the routing mechanism. Like, I will ask the fast model first, and then if, like, oh, not good enough, I'm gonna upgrade manually.Alex Atallah [00:46:52]: Yes.Swyx [00:46:53]: But then he's gonna auto it.Alex Atallah [00:46:54]: I didn't, I hadn't thought of it that way, but that makes sense.Swyx [00:46:57]: Which then there's, there's a lot more techniques, like fusion. Fusion is the thing that we should talk about. Before I move on to those things, I just want to close off the early years. one thing that I observe, which you are also an investor in Arena.OpenRouter vs. LM ArenaAlex Atallah [00:47:10]: Right.Swyx [00:47:10]: And we talked about Midjourney having that feedback loop of, A, B, C, D, and choosing that very. being very important. And you understand the flywheel. So how come you didn't build Arena, and how come Arena didn't build OpenRouter?Anjney Midha [00:47:23]: Well, Arena started before OpenRouter, right?Swyx [00:47:27]: They had the school projectAnjney Midha [00:47:29]: Yeah, LMSwyx [00:47:29]: And then it became a company.Anjney Midha [00:47:31]: LM Arena, yeah.Swyx [00:47:32]: So, but, and I know you had some Arena experiences, like the up comparison type things.Anjney Midha [00:47:37]: Yeah.Swyx [00:47:37]: But you never really went as hard as Arena did.Swyx [00:47:40]: And,Anjney Midha [00:47:40]: In doing up experiences?Swyx [00:47:42]: Yes. And LM Arena did have a router project based on LM Arena ELOs, which they never commercialized.Anjney Midha [00:47:48]: It's hard to do a company that does both because one company is taking data and selling it, and the other company really can't by default. So, I think there is, like, a branding reason that there are two companies here. like, when you set up OpenRouter, there's no training, there are no prompts, right, aside from what your provider policy set. Like, OpenRou- like, OpenRouter can't see your prompts or completions. If you want to see that as an org, you have to opt into it and enable it. And so we're, like, pretty conservative and careful about data policy and security. And privacy. And LM Arena is like, their business model is like oriented around the labs and,Swyx [00:48:34]: Because they give it for free, right? You don't give it for free to give it for free.Anjney Midha [00:48:37]: Yeah.Anjney Midha [00:48:38]: But we do give some. We like have free endpoints too, but like those free endpoints, we, I think we're not collecting any prompts. We're not like monetizing the data unless you, opt into it for some reason.Alex Atallah [00:48:48]: This comparison. you're not the first person to ask me this, and Alex knows this, but I was the interim, like the founder, like first CEO of Arena for the first five months when, and we were helping Anastasios and Waylin spin out of Berkeley. And, I did invest in that before, OpenRouter, but it was very strange to me the comparisons that outside, folks would make between the two projects because the missions were completely different. The founding entity for Arena, we called it the AI Reliability Institute because it was there as an eval service. Like the data, so to speak, that they were originally, offering the labs was how do you make the evaluation of models more reliable than like the state of the art at the time, which was like really just finger in the wind.Alex Atallah [00:49:38]: That's what Anastasios and Waylin's PhD work was as scientists at Berkeley, was on statistical methodologies for correcting, eval estimates, based on like intrinsic biases and how you collected the data.Swyx [00:49:54]: Yes.Alex Atallah [00:49:54]: AndSwyx [00:49:54]: Style control.Alex Atallah [00:49:55]: Style control and stuff like that. And which is very much like a, hey, how. If you're a scientist and you're trying to. the highest expectation customer for Arena was always like a training and, like a researcher at a lab. Whereas the highest expectation customer from my perspective that Alex like really understood and was the mission was to serve was like a developer, right? Who then takes the result of the research and then produces an application that's deployed to the world. It was a completely different problem and person that these two teams were focused on. And so from the outside in. I don't know if you remember this, but I have a distinct memory of a few weeks before we did the term sheet, together for OpenRouter, I'd given you a call because we were trying to get a pooled data set together from OpenRouter and from Arena to, create like an open source repository of prompts. these projects were so different in their goals that it was totally normal to me to be like, “Oh, yeah, let's call Alex and see if he'd want to team up on pooling data,” because they're so different. We need. We don't have that data at all. We. Like, we didn't have API prompts. We didn't, we didn't have like what developers want to do with the models, which is very different from what researchers inside a model lab want to do before releasing the model.Swyx [00:51:15]: Yeah.Alex Atallah [00:51:15]: Does that make sense? And so to this day, I think you see that this difference, even though at a 30,000-foot level you could. I guess you could conclude that Arena and OpenRouter are adjacent, but, the roadmaps, the missions and so on at the time at least were like in very different directions.Swyx [00:51:36]: That ideal customer, I get. I totally get that.Alex Atallah [00:51:39]: Yes.Swyx [00:51:39]: As a founder, I want to own everything, right?Alex Atallah [00:51:41]: That's possible.Swyx [00:51:42]: Like this is clearly an adjacency that I'm like gonna explore that.Anjney Midha [00:51:45]: Own everything meaning like you don't know what to do yet, so you wanna like make sure you catch PMFocus, Anthropic, and Roads Not TakenAlex Atallah [00:51:51]: No, I think what heAnjney Midha [00:51:52]: As quickly as possible.Alex Atallah [00:51:53]: You want to own the entire infrastructure space, and so you expand to whatever demand you can capture.Swyx [00:51:58]: You want to have a play in each end.Alex Atallah [00:51:59]: Yeah, I think that's, that's hard, in reality, because serving multiple customers is difficult.Swyx [00:52:05]: Clearly, this is the one focus, right?Alex Atallah [00:52:08]: Yeah.Anjney Midha [00:52:08]: Yeah. I still think even in the age of AI, like focus is,Alex Atallah [00:52:12]: Is criticalAnjney Midha [00:52:13]: Underrated and critical, not just because you end up with a better product by focusing your humans on it, but also because the world knows what your focus is.Alex Atallah [00:52:22]: One thousand percent.Anjney Midha [00:52:23]: The world can map like, “Oh, I have this issue. Which brand out there is going to help me with that issue? This is the brand that's known for that focus.”Alex Atallah [00:52:31]: Yes.Anjney Midha [00:52:32]: So like if I want real attention on this issue, like this really matters to me, I should go with the brand that cares the most about it.Alex Atallah [00:52:39]: To underscore Alex's point about how important focus is, in the early days of Anthropic, it was not easy to. Like people think that the early days of Anthropic were like super easy because they were on their 3 guys who left, but it was very

This is a side of Tom Doyle that very few people know. A fan-favorite Blurry Creatures guest, Tom is known for his accounts of Muslim dreams about Jesus and more than thirty years on the mission field in the Middle East. What people do not know is how he grew up. His father was an FBI agent and organized-crime specialist in Rat Pack Las Vegas, and one morning he stands at the Marilyn Monroe crime scene as the world wakes up to the headline. He sees who shows up, and it is someone far above a governor. J. Edgar Hoover calls the house personally. Frank Sinatra sends the family a gold watch. This is not the usual Blurry Creatures episode, and that is exactly the point. For one night Tom sets the supernatural aside and cracks open his own family's government files. What spills out is a front-row seat to the biggest conspiracies in American history. Marilyn Monroe and the phone calls to the White House. The Kennedys in Las Vegas the weekend before Dallas. Frankie Sinatra's kidnapping and the watch Tom still owns. Roswell, from a man who knew the people who were there. Josh and Tommy Doyle (Tom's sons) from No Longer Nomads pull up to the table as the Doyle family tells stories they almost never tell in public. And it all bends toward one unlikely ending, how a kid raised around guns and secrets grows up to smuggle Bibles into Iran. This one is for members, and members are what make episodes like this possible. Join us at blurrycreatures.com/members to unlock the full conversation, early and ad-free releases, the community, and ticket discounts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices