Podcasts about MultiCam

It's time for a show that begs the question are we not ALL simply women of a certain age? We're flying into Palm Springs airport today to visit our Gay Golden Girls, and triumphant return of the multicam with Mid Century Modern! It's got all the staples of a true classic Multicam sitcom: A theme song, firm scene breaks, a big dumb dumb and EXPOSITION BABYYYY! Not to mention an absolute rockstar production, writing, and acting team with the return of our champion Jimmy Burrows (Cheers, Mary Tyler Moore, Friends, Will & Grace, Taxi, Frasier and more) but also Max Mutchnik and David Kohan the creators of Will & Grace. The squad behind this is so talented we put Matt Bomer, Nathan Lee Graham and freaking NATHAN LANE after? Beautiful.After a challenge from guest host J. W. Crump to deep dive this show and make sure our straight boy brains didn't explode, how do you think we did?To watch Mid Century Modern along with us, it is available on Hulu.HostsGeoff KerbisMax SingerRich Inman

Watch on YouTube.In this packed episode of UC Today, David Dungay is joined by a powerhouse panel of Microsoft Teams experts:Tom ArbuthnotAmanda SternerSatish UpadhyayaKevin KeelerRyan HerbstJosh BlaylockFresh from ISE 2024, the team dives into the latest Microsoft Teams innovations, including new hardware, Express Install setups, MultiCam capabilities, AI-powered super resolution, and the future of meeting room experiences.If you want insider knowledge on the latest Microsoft Teams updates, this discussion is unmissable!The Microsoft Teams ecosystem is evolving faster than ever, and ISE 2024 was packed with groundbreaking announcements. Our expert panel breaks down everything you need to know about Teams hardware, AI advancements, and smart meeting room solutions.ISE 2024 Highlights – The latest Jabra, Shure, Logitech, and MaxHub Teams-certified hardware for next-gen meeting spaces.BYOD vs. Native Teams Rooms – The ongoing debate: When does a business upgrade to a full Teams Room solution?MultiCam for Teams Rooms – Now generally available, enabling seamless multi-angle viewing in large rooms & classrooms.AI-Driven Super Resolution – How Microsoft is using AI to upscale low-quality video in poor network conditions.Microsoft Teams Panels & Room Occupancy – Real-time sensor data now prevents those “awkward walk-ins” during meetings.Microsoft-Android Partnership (M-DEP) – The latest OEM partnerships and what it means for Teams hardware innovation.Microsoft Teams is redefining the way we work—from AI-powered enhancements to streamlined hybrid collaboration. If you're an IT leader, UC strategist, or Microsoft Teams power user, this episode is a goldmine of insights!Connect with our hosts David Dungay and Tom Arbuthnot on socials here:David DungayLinkedInTwitterTom ArbuthnotLinkedInTwitterThanks for watching, if you'd like more content like this, don't forget to SUBSCRIBE to our YouTube channel.You can also join in the conversation on our Twitter and LinkedIn pages.Join our new LinkedIn Community Group.

In the season 6 premiere of Sista Brunch, hosts Fanshen Cox and Shawn Pipkin-West celebrate the stories of Black women and gender expansive people in entertainment and media. They highlight community partners like the American Cinematheque and Post in Black podcast. The episode spotlights Alyson Fouse and Morenike Joela Evans, creator and director of the Netflix show 'Act Your Age,' and explores their inspiring journeys from early career challenges to notable successes. Topics include their industry experiences, the importance of representation, financial challenges in the industry, and practical advice for aspiring creatives. 00:00 Welcome to Season Six! 00:11 Shoutouts to Community Partners 01:56 Introducing Today's Guests 02:18 Behind the Scenes of 'Act Your Age' 04:40 Alyson Fouse's Journey 08:04 Morenike Joela Evans' Path to Directing 15:59 Multicam vs. Single Cam: A Director's Perspective 18:16 Financial Realities in the Industry 24:01 Navigating the Strike and Career Challenges 25:36 Directing and Producing During the Pandemic 26:48 The Evolution of Television and Technology 28:46 Tools and Techniques for Directors 32:27 Collaborative Work Environment 39:03 Advice to Younger Selves 43:56 Closing Remarks and Future Plans

Henry Levak, Vice President of Product at Logitech for Business, discusses the company's innovations in video conferencing technology and workplace experiences.The Logi Sight was recently recognised among Time's best innovations of 2024Development of multi-camera and multi-stream technologyLogi's new software capabilities, including auto-booking and releasing meeting rooms to combat 'ghost meetings'Future innovations in Logi product offerings, including insights and analyticsThanks to Logitech, this episode's sponsor, for their continued support.

Jem and Justin chat about 3D-printed vacuum workholding, crazy insurance lumps, a $420k robot cell, and fun with QR codes. Plus, a peek into Profit First and hitting Q3 revenue goals like butter!Watch on YoutubeDISCUSSED:✍️ Send Comments on Episodemmmmmmmachining, distracted fun3D printed vacuum workholdingPatreon longer 3D fixture walkthroughFlyback DiodesVeritasium QR CodeBarcode scannerLittle things job swapinsurance lumps (my lovely lady lumps)Airtable, Fusion, Insurance, Multicam support group - Join here$420,000 robot cellTwig and BotProfit FirstQ3 Distribution - 96% of AIM PDXQ3 Rev 16% over target - Like Butter---Profit First PlaylistClassic Episodes Playlist---SUPPORT THE SHOWBecome a Patreon - Get the Secret ShowReview on Apple Podcast Share with a FriendDiscuss on Show SubredditShow InfoShow WebsiteContact Jem & JustinInstagram | Tiktok | Facebook | YoutubePlease note: Show notes contains affiliate links.HOSTSJem FreemanCastlemaine, Victoria, AustraliaLike Butter | Instagram | More LinksJustin BrouillettePortland, Oregon, USA

In this episode, Nino and Johnnie discuss the evolution of camera technology and how various innovations have replaced older systems over time. They also share their thoughts on what manufacturers could do to break away from this cycle and adapt to ongoing developments. Additionally, they cover some exciting news about the new Blackmagic Camera app 2.0 and provide an intriguing preview from Sigma regarding a new AF Cine Zoom. Sponsor: This episode is sponsored by FilmConvert. Check it out at [19:02].   (00:01:24) - Have Smartphones Replaced Cameras https://www.cined.com/have-smartphones-replaced-cameras-an-animated-infographic/   (00:20:09) - DJI Osmo Pocket 3 Review – Is It the Best Camera for Vlogging and Traveling? https://www.cined.com/dji-osmo-pocket-3-review-is-it-the-best-camera-for-vlogging-and-traveling/   (00:35:23) - Blackmagic Camera for iOS 2.0 Adds Remote Control, Multicam, and More https://www.cined.com/blackmagic-camera-for-ios-2-0-adds-remote-control-multicam-and-more/   (00:42:51) Video Cutouts and Effects in a Few Clicks with SAM 2 by Meta https://www.cined.com/video-cutouts-and-effects-with-a-few-clicks-with-sam-2-by-meta/   (00:50:13) - Poll: What screen are you mainly using to watch videos? https://www.cined.com/poll-which-device-do-you-mainly-watch-videos-on/   (00:56:10) - SIGMA Auto Focus Cine Lens Prototype to be Shown at IBC https://www.cined.com/sigma-auto-focus-cine-lens-prototype-to-be-shown-at-ibc/   (01:02:36) - Atomos Shinobi II Released – Slim 5.2” 1,500-nit HDMI Monitor with Camera Control https://www.cined.com/atomos-shinobi-ii-released-slim-5-2-1500-nit-hdmi-monitor-with-camera-control/   We hope you enjoyed this episode! Do you have feedback, comments, or suggestions? Write us at podcast@cined.com.

 In this episode of the CinePacks Podcast, we sit down with Evan Blum, aka Dr. Clips, to explore the power of short-form content. Evan shares his tips for filming, creating viral videos, and the impact of concise content in today's digital world. With experience working with artists like Flyana Boss, Bebe Rexha, Glorilla, and Demi Lovato, Evan brings a wealth of knowledge and practical advice for aspiring creators. Follow Dr.Clips 0:00:00 Intro0:00:20 Shooting at CinePacks0:00:50 No Pre Production0:03:22 Music Drives Production0:08:13 Getting Started in Short Form0:11:58 Running Trend0:15:56 Running Camera Setup0:17:28 Fame as a DP0:19:45 Branding Dr. Clips0:22:34 Production Length0:27:32 Unique Videography0:29:59 Run and Gun Tips0:32:12 Working with Bigger Artists0:36:08 Controlling Music Playback on Shoot0:37:14 Camera Setup0:40:08 Editing Assets0:42:51 Captions0:44:21 MultiCam and AI0:48:29 Future of Dr. Clips0:50:48 Cult Stuff0:52:35 Future of CinePacks0:54:46 Underwater Filming0:57:39 OutroSupport the Show.

Apple is developing personal robots for your home … Microsoft may have finally made quantum computing useful … Who exactly is YouTube's multicam Coachella stream for?. It's Friday, April 5th and this is Engadget News. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Streamcam One from EMeet is a compact device that can stream up to 4 social networks. I set up a 3 Camera Multicam with this. The post Create a MultiCam Studio with EMeet StreamCam One appeared first on Geekazine.

This time around we chat about the pros and cons of Final Cut Pro versus Premiere Pro and just how good is the the new M3 15-inch MacBook Air?   Still no iPads and possibly now not until May or even WWDC - and what can we expect from WWDC this year?   Lastly the dark side of YouTube and what it feels like to buy subs.   Don't forget, if you enjoy our weekly podcast to subscribe, like, and share - and if you listen on Apple Podcasts - to leave us a rating (hopefully a 5-star one!) as well!

On December 8th, I hosted a webinar called “What “Do Showrunners Look For In A Script,” where I talked about how to come up with interesting and unique characters, as well as how tapping into your everyday life interactions with people can help with this. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesA Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Well, no one cares that you took my course, so zero. No one's going to be. That's why we don't give a diploma out because the diploma is worthless. No one really cares if you went where you studied, who taught you all they care about? Is the script good or not? Does it make them want to turn the page or not? Do they want to find out what happens next or not?Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Michael Jamin:Hey everyone, welcome to a very special episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about. I'm here with my guest host Kevin Lewandowski, and he helps out a lot with the podcast, with all my social stuff, and he's actually by trade. He's a writer's assistant script coordinator, which is actually one step higher than writer's assistant, so he's worked on a bunch of shows. Kevin, welcome to the show.Kevin Lewandowski:Thank you for having me. Michael, for those of you, sorry I'm not Phil, I'm just kind of filling in for Phil for a couple days, but I'm excited to be here. And yeah, I hope to tell you all a little bit about script coordinating as well and what that all entails,Michael Jamin:Fill in and fulfill, fillKevin Lewandowski:In and fulfill.Michael Jamin:What shows were you script coordinator on?Kevin Lewandowski:So the big one was Why Women Kill.Michael Jamin:Did we ever figure out why?Kevin Lewandowski:I mean, depending on who you ask, a lot of women will say because of men,Michael Jamin:They kill for ratings.Kevin Lewandowski:Right? Okay, that's better. But yeah, that was, I forgot how long ago that was, but that was, unfortunately we got canceled four or five days before we were supposed to start filming. Our actors had just landed in Canada and then the next day they announced they were pulling the plug on the show.Michael Jamin:Why?Kevin Lewandowski:It could be many reasons. I think a lot of it had to do with we were a little bit behind on scripts and then budgeting and we were still kind of in the midst of covid precautions and things like that.Michael Jamin:Covid, people don't realize, especially new showrunners, you don't mess with the budget. You get things done on time, Ross, you're screwed. What other shows did you work on then?Kevin Lewandowski:So the first show I ever worked on was in 2015. It was the Muppets, and it was funny. I thought if anyone ever caught a break, this is my break. I was like, it's the Muppets, it's going to go on for five or six years and I'm just going to notch up every year. And after 16 episodes, that one got canceled.Michael Jamin:What's Ms. Piggy really like?Kevin Lewandowski:I mean, she is who she is. Difficult. Yeah, she's difficult. She's a bit of a diva. We have to had to cater to all of her needs.Michael Jamin:What about, I'm sorry, and what were the other shows? Screw Miss Piggy. Yeah,Kevin Lewandowski:Screw Miss Piggy. So after that, a bunch of pilots that never got picked up, and then I worked for a show on Netflix called The Ranch with AshleyMichael Jamin:ElementKevin Lewandowski:That was a live audience show and I was there for two seasons. I'm trying to think after that. It's all becoming a blur. I did two seasons of Why Women Kill. Actually the first year I was a line producer's assistant, and so that was interesting to kind of see the financial side of things and see where they decide to put the money in. And then for season three, they moved me to Script coordinator,Michael Jamin:But the Branch was a legit show. That was a big show.Kevin Lewandowski:That was a lot of fun because I'd always wanted to work in the Multicam world. There's just something about show night and it's just kind of a big party for everyone and you get to see the audience's instant gratification. It's just a lot of fun. A lot of fun to work on those shows.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well now the next thing for us to do is try to get you into one of these jobs so you don't have to co-host with me all the time on thisKevin Lewandowski:Podcast. I don't mind co-hosting with you.Michael Jamin:Oh, all right. Well, we'll see if you feel that way at the end. Okay, that's fair. So we are doing, this is a special q and a. We do these monthly webinars or whatever, every three weeks actually, and we have a lot of questions we can't answer. And so we save 'em for the podcast. And now Kevin's going to feed them to me. He's going to regurgitate them to me. He's going to baby bird them into my mouth, and then I'm going to try to answer them as best I can.Kevin Lewandowski:Early Bird gets the worm or something like that.Michael Jamin:Gross. Kevin Gross.Kevin Lewandowski:And I apologize in advance for anyone's name I might butcher.Michael Jamin:It's okay. They don't need to. I mean whatever if you get 'em wrong. Okay,Kevin Lewandowski:So these first few questions are going to be kind of course related questions. The first one is from Dat Boy, D-A-T-B-O-I. And that person's asking, what are the best tips for making my script shine more than the rest?Michael Jamin:Oh boy. Well, I wish he would. Well, he was already at my free webinar. I wish he would sign up for my course. I mean, that's what the course is. The best tips for making it shine is making sure your act breaks pop, making sure the dialogue feels fresh, your characters are original. I mean, there's no tips. It's not a tips thing. It's 14 hours of, let me tell you how to do it. That boy, I wish. What do you think, Kevin? What's your answer for him?Kevin Lewandowski:I think it's one of the things you always say on your webinars is after taking my course, you'll just hear me yelling in your head all the time about this is your end of act two moment, this is this, this is that. And I can vouch for that and say, anytime I'm looking through a script or even watching a TV show, because of your course and just understanding the story structure, you get those spider senses like, oh, the raising the stake should be coming very soon. Now we're about halfway through the episode, so something better be changing here. And I think it's just, again, everything you say in your course of just knowing those beats when they need to hit how they need to pop will help set your script ahead of amateur writers.Michael Jamin:You're a good student, Kevin.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Thanks.Michael Jamin:Alright, what's next?Kevin Lewandowski:So km phs, when I say I don't have experience, but I have a killer pilot and I took Michael Jamin's course. How much of a difference is the course going to make in terms of being a desirable hire?Michael Jamin:No one cares that you took my course. So zero no one's. That's why we don't give a diploma out because the diploma is worthless. No one really cares if you went where you studied, who taught you all they care about, is the script good or not? Does it make them want to turn the page or not? Do they want to find out what happens next or not? So I wish I could give you a better answer than that, but it's not the degree. The degree isn't worth anything. Hopefully the knowledge is worth something.Kevin Lewandowski:I think the analogy I have in my head of your courses, I look at scripts I wrote before taking your course, and it's like when you look back at high school photos and I had the Frosted tips, the pca, shell, necklace, hoop earring, and at the time it was cool. And now you look back and it's like it's pretty cringe-worthy. It's pretty cringe-worthy to see those photos. And now after taking your course, I feel like it's like now I'm wearing a suit and I don't have the poop hearing and I don't have the frosted tips, and I'm not as cringe-worthy when I look back at some of the scripts I wrote a year or so ago.Michael Jamin:Good, good. All right, good. Very good. Impressing me more and more, Kevin.Kevin Lewandowski:Right? Next question. Ous. I'm butchering that one. Nope,Michael Jamin:Perfectly. That's how he says his name.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. What are the most important things an inspiring writer should be aware of while reviewing one script before sending it to an established executive or writer?Michael Jamin:God, it's pretty much the same answer as all the other ones. It's like, do your act breaks, pop? Is it fresh? The dialogue, I'm sorry, but it's the same answer, so I don't really have anything to say. Yeah, yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question, mal. Yay.Michael Jamin:Exactly.Kevin Lewandowski:In a 26 page pilot is page 11 two, late for the first act break, second act break or second act being on page 20.Michael Jamin:On the 26 page script, the first back page is on 11, is that what they said?Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah.Michael Jamin:It's not terrible. I've seen worse things. I'm assuming it's a single space. It's not terrible. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Colin Miller, what is a good system to practice writing every day? I like this question.Michael Jamin:A good system, a good system. I don't know why you like it, because I'm stumped. I mean, I would just say write a good system is to, I'm most creative in the morning, so that's when I want to write and I try to do my busy work in the evening stuff that's easier, but you might be a night owl, but I would just carve out time every day and just sit down at the computer and write. And don't be so precious that no one's going to look at your first draft. That first draft can be terrible, so don't just get it on paper. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I think a lot of maybe misconceptions people have is writing every day isn't necessarily open up final draft and typing something. Sometimes it's going on a walk for an hour and a half and thinking about the story you're trying to tell and laying out the beats in, I live in Glendale and there's a outdoor mall. It's fun to kind of just walk around there and people watch a little bit. And sometimesMichael Jamin:The Americana, that's where you go.Kevin Lewandowski:Yep. Right By the Americana.Michael Jamin:Are you in walking distance to thatKevin Lewandowski:Few blocks?Michael Jamin:Interesting. Okay. Alright. You'd like to go on the trolley.Kevin Lewandowski:I've never been on that trolley. I'm always afraidMichael Jamin:You like to ring the bell on trolley, Kevin. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:I'm always afraid it's going to hit someone.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know. I know.Kevin Lewandowski:I think takes up a lot of the bottom of the path.Michael Jamin:Yeah. AllKevin Lewandowski:Right. Next question. So NRS creates, I guess this is a question, it's more of a comment. It said, agreed. The course is changing the way I see all of my stories. Good, great.Michael Jamin:Great.Kevin Lewandowski:Christina Sini, who's a current student, and Michael Jamin's course, we learned to break and structure story well before writing those bits and pieces of a script glued together that we won't have to cling to anyone to make them fit. We basically learned how to build in order. I think that goes back to your analogy of laying the foundation first and doing, starting with the characters in beat sheets and then outlining and eventually getting to the physical writing of the script.Michael Jamin:Yeah, she's doing great, Christina. She's having a good amount of success early on, so I'm impressed.Kevin Lewandowski:Another very active person in the course, Laurie. John Michael's course is amazing. When you take the class, you also become of the Jam and Facebook community. We do table reads and give each other notes twice a month. Writer sprints, Wednesday nights and mock writer's room. So anyone that's thinking about getting the course, we have this private Facebook group and it's a bunch of great people in there and we are all just trying to build each other up.Michael Jamin:It really is. It's impressive because when you look at some of the other Facebook groups, the screenwriting groups or on Reddit or groups, it's mostly people trying to tear each other down. But because this is private, I think they're not like that at all. It's a community, I think.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I think that was a big thing for you because you said you were in some of those groups, and I think you even said you sometimes as a professional working writer, you would say something that people would attackMichael Jamin:You. Yeah. You don't, what are you talking about? Oh, alright. I happened once or twice. I was say, I'm done. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:All right. Next question. VV oral, is it worth it? And parentheses story structure is very detailed in your course, so I think maybe it's worth it, not is it worth it? Yeah. I think it's just more people praising about your course.Michael Jamin:Okay.Kevin Lewandowski:Let's see. Okay, now we have some craft questions. Good. From Mal mavey, they, again, is it okay to end a pilot on a cliffhanger?Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's okay, but better not. You're really counting on the fact that anyone's going to care, so you're better. I think what the danger is, you may be writing towards this cliffhanger thinking that everyone's going to be so, oh my God, what's going to happen if you don't write? If all those pages beforehand aren't so great, no one's going to care what happens. And so a lot of people write towards this cliffhanger thinking, oh, aren't you going to be enthralled? And the answer is no, we don't care.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Yeah. I think trying to work backwards from that I think can be a disservice. And I think it's just you definitely don't want that cliffhanger to be more exciting necessarily than your act one break, because that's what we know what we're following. Lex Macaluso, once I have a great script, what are the practical steps to do?Michael Jamin:Well, once you have a great script, write another one for sure. And then you want to make sure you actually do have a great script. And you do that by showing it to people. And it doesn't have to be somebody in the industry. It could be a friend or a mother or someone whose opinion you trust. What do you think? And if they love it and they say, this is amazing, show me something else. You're onto something. But if they say, well, I like this part, or I like when this happened, or This is a good storyline, then that's not a great script. So you have to be honest with yourself. It's really, look, it's really hard to write a great script. Everyone assumes they have it and I don't assume I have it. So when I do my job really well, I might have a good script. A great script is really, you got to really hit it out of the park.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think just that idea of what is a great script, so arbitrary, and I think it's sticking to the story structure of what you teach in your course can help set your script apart from others.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And honestly, it is those things that I'm looking for. All the things that I say that when I'm reading a script, what I'm looking for and what I'm really looking for is I want a really good script. It doesn't even have to be great because a really good script stands out great or amazing is very rare. I mean, how often do you see a movie that's been made or a TV show and you go, this is a great script. Most of the time you're like, oh, this is really good.Kevin Lewandowski:So if you were reading a script, and let's say maybe the structure wasn't where you think it should be, but the characters were very compelling and the characters were witty with what they were saying. Would you still be okay with that? Or vice versa if maybe the characters was a little bit too much speaking on the nose, but the structure and everything was spot on with that.Michael Jamin:Years ago we hired on a show, we were running a show and we were reading a ton of scripts, and we got to one where Act one was really good. Act two was really good, and Act three was not very good. And we hired him anyway because we were thought at that point, I was like, he did the first two parts really well, I could fix, or we could fix Act three, not a problem. And so I think that says a lot. You do act one, walk two. That's a big deal. He's a young writer.Kevin Lewandowski:Do you see a pattern with a lot of writers starting out is Act two where they struggle the most? Or is it act three or is it,Michael Jamin:Listen, I don't make it to act two. If Act one isn't good, I don't read further. I get another script. If I get a stack of scripts, who cares about Act two? Fact One sucks.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Ben Miller, what screenplays are the best to read, to learn from perhaps the West Wing pilot, which I read in a screenwriting class?Michael Jamin:Well, it depends what you want to write. If you want to write drama, then maybe West Wing pilot, I haven't read it, but you can also learn from reading band scripts. You can say to yourself, if long as you're honest, why am I not interested in this? And if you know what to look for, why is the script not compelling? Is the dialogue, is it the act breaks? Do they now you'll know what to look for? And then the trick is to be honest with yourself. There's been times even in my early career where I might pitch something to my partner and he'll say, if you read that in a script and someone else's script, you'd say, that sucks. And I go, really? I thought it was good. He goes, no, no, you would say it sucks. So then at that point, you got to go, okay, you got to back off. And you don't fight for it. You got to be honest with yourself.Kevin Lewandowski:I think another amazing thing in today's world that didn't really exist when you start out is pretty much any show that's out there right now, you can get access to some version of the script, whether it was a writer's draft or a production draft. IsMichael Jamin:That true? How do you find them?Kevin Lewandowski:I mean, if you just go to Google and you type in Breaking Bad Pilot script, there's going to be versions that you can download. It's always interesting to read those scripts and then watch the first episode and see how much did they change? Because I doubt you'll be able to find necessarily the final shooting draft online, but those first couple writer's drafts are available. And it's always interesting just to see you're reading it and you really, really like this part, but then you watch the episode and they took it out. You're like, oh, okay. That's interesting thatMichael Jamin:If you really wanted up your game, you could also watch the pilot of Breaking Bag and type out the script while you're watching it and then read it later and look for what are the act breaks, literally, what are the act breaks? How do they work? What's the dialogue on that? What's the last line of every scene? What's the dialogue? At the last line,Kevin Lewandowski:When I was doing writer's assistant script coordinate stuff, that's what I used to do to type faster just sit and watch TV and just type out the script as it was happening.Michael Jamin:Wow, good forKevin Lewandowski:You. Because in the room, they don't like it when you say, Hey, can you slow down a little bit? Can I hear that again? No, you got to go.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay. Part, what advice would you offer writers to adapt to the inevitable changes in developments expected in the screenwriting field and then years to come? I'm assuming that's in the context of chat, GPT, ai, that kind of stuff.Michael Jamin:Right now, that stuff is being regulated. I don't know of anybody who's using it in a writer's room. That's not to say I could easily be out of the loop, so I don't know. But right now, as far as I know, chat, GPT wasn't a tool. Any writer that I knew was clamoring for, because we all knew if it works, it's going to put us out of a job. So any changes? I don't know. I really don't know. I would just say maybe I'm naive, but stay the course. Figure out how to write without using a computer program or else, because if you're using the computer program, what do we need you for?Kevin Lewandowski:Right. Have you ever just to see what it would look like, just prompt, Chappie, just to write you a random scene just to see what it would look like, and then compare it to your knowledge you have of being a professional writer forMichael Jamin:Many years. Well, a couple of months ago, my partner decided to put some prompts into chat, GPT to come up with story ideas for Come FD for the show we were on. He just read 'em to me. We were both laughing at how terrible they were. It was like a paragraph of what's going to happen in this episode. And it was interesting how it was able to glean what the show was and what it was like, but it was just such an oversimplification of what the show, it lacked any nuance. It was kind of stupid. It was like, nah, that's not, I know. That's what it was almost like asking a 4-year-old what you think the show is and the four year olds. Yeah. Okay. You're right. It's about firemen. Okay, sure. But other than that, the ideas were terrible.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Another question from NRS creates, what are your thoughts on screenwriting competition websites like Cover Fly and the Blacklist? Is that a good way to get a script into people's hands? Thoughts on one act, scripts, one act plays? Do they have three acts?Michael Jamin:A lot of questions. I think you're the better person to answer the first part.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. So I've definitely submitted to some of those contests just to see A, if I would get any more B, what kind of feedback they would give. And a lot of times it's not very helpful feedback. And you've talked about, you have to question who these people are that are giving feedback, because chances are, they're not professional working writers right now. They would not have the time to go through 20, 30 scripts to give feedback. So chances are these could potentially be recent college graduates that are just doing what they think, what they learned in film school. And interestingly enough, I think Phil, he went through one competition. He sent me what the feedback was, and just reading it, I was like, this sounds very Chat, GPT ai. It was just very, because he sent me other ones he got, and I was like, okay, this feels like a person actually read this. This feels like it could have been put in chat, GPT, write a response based on what you think. And then when I said that to him, he was like, you might be right. He's like, you might be right. Interesting.Michael Jamin:Back when I was writing my book and I submitted to some publishers, whatever, a couple wrote back why they didn't like it, why they didn't want to option the book or whatever, and whatever. A couple of them, their feedback was like, no, it's clear to me you barely read it. Which I understand because these were low level publishing types editors. And on their weekend read, they probably had to read a couple dozen books, manuscripts, they're not going to give it full attention. And I was like, so some of the criticism, I was like, okay, that's a fair criticism. But no, but that is not, there's literally no truth in what you're saying there. You just phoned it in because you have to read so much over the weekend. So I don't know. Got to take, no one's going. I mean, it's the same thing for these websites. Are they really going to put their heart and soul into it? No. Why would TheyKevin Lewandowski:Don't care. They just want theMichael Jamin:Money. Yeah. Why would they? Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:You think about someone in your position giving feedback to a fellow writer that might take you two and a half hours, read the script, think about your notes, and then put 'em in a format to be able to explain them to the writer. And I don't think these people in those competitions are doing that. They probably just read it once and write down what they think. And it's funny how some of them, it's what would you rank the character dialogue on a one to 10, and they write six and a half. It's like,Michael Jamin:Where are you gettingKevin Lewandowski:That from? One is six and half. So then what would've gotten me an eight or an half or a nine?Michael Jamin:One of the things we just started doing on their website, if you have the course, our screenwriting course, I have a couple of friends who are high level writers who are willing to give notes. But here's the thing, you're going to pay. It's not cheap. You're going to pay these people to sit down and read your damn script for two or three hours and they're not getting $10 an hour. That's not what they're going to get. I don't know what you get paid for,Kevin Lewandowski:I guess. So is this a good way to get your script into people's hands? So I think, yeah, mean it's technically people's hands, but I don't know ifMichael Jamin:I don't think they're the right hands.Kevin Lewandowski:Feedback is going to be any valuable. And then thoughts on one X Scripts. One X plays, do they have three x inherently?Michael Jamin:That's an interesting question. Do they have three acts? I would say yes, in terms of the structure, in terms of what makes something compelling, but not necessarily, I guess I've written some stories in my book that don't fall into the traditional three Acts structure, but they come close. They definitely come close to it. And that's just because, well, it doesn't really matter why, but you can't go wrong. You really can't go wrong if you structure something like the way we teach.Kevin Lewandowski:So in your opinion, because heard, sometimes people use a five act structure, and I think for me, I think it's basically the same three act structure, but so act one will be act one, and then Act two isMichael Jamin:ActKevin Lewandowski:Two A and then Act two B. And so it's kind of broken up like that. So for me,Michael Jamin:Well, Shakespeare wrote that way. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:And he's all right. He did.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, I just think it's easier not to write. I just think three is easier to get your head around. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I think just the thought of hearing the words, so writing five acts, that just sounds like it can be a lot, but if you could be like, oh, three acts, okay, I can do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Anyone could do that. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next topic, breaking in. DJ asked when starting out to obtain that experience, what sort of job should one be searching for, staff, writer, assistant, et cetera?Michael Jamin:You should be searching for the production assistant job anywhere, and eventually, after a season or two, see if you can move to a job that's closer to the writer's room. Physically, let's do what Kevin did. That's what he did.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think there's a staff writer that's obviously not entry level assistant. There's various assistant positions you could do production assistant, you can do showrunners, assistant executive assistant. I think one of the, or the terminologies people may get confused is writer's production assistant and then writer's assistant. And the writer's production assistant is the one that's responsible for getting the lunches, stocking the kitchen, making copies, things like that. And the writer's assistant is the one that sits in the room, types up the notes and the jokes that are being pitched. And they work closely with the script coordinator. And as you've said, many times, the writer's assistant is not an entry level job. It can be very intensive times.Michael Jamin:And for what's worth, I've worked with several assistants, either writer's, assistant production assistants, who've since gone on to become staff writers have had successful careers. So it's not like many. So Kevin, hopefully you'll be next.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I'm hoping so too. Next question, Sammy. ak. So the best way to get a foot in the door to support and learn the biz write in assistant or pa, we kind of just answer that. Yeah. Production assistant is that entry level. You're kind of just the gopher and you're the whatever they kind of need you go do, and you prove yourself to those people above you. And they notice. Notice people notice when you're either calling it in or you're really going above and beyond to make whoever's ahead of you life a little bit easier. Yeah. All right. Now we got some miscellaneous. Oh, here's a fun question. Tulio, how close are you to officially publishing your book, Michael,Michael Jamin:It's already out tulio. You can go get it. You can find it. Sign copies are available@michaeljamin.com slash book. Or you could search for a paper orchestra on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, or the audio book on Audible or Spotify or Apple. How about that?Kevin Lewandowski:Get the book. Everyone get the book. The comment to address from Jonathan Loudon, real world dilemma. I like this. Can't get experience without getting hired. Can't get hired without experience. That's why, who is such a reality?Michael Jamin:Well, but if you're starting off in an entry level position, you don't need to know anybody. You just have to put yourself out there. And then in terms of knowing someone later in your job, well, now you already know people. Now you broke because entry levels, literally, you have a pulse in a car. So I find that it's a convenient excuse. Put yourself out there, and Kevin, you didn't have any contacts when you broke into Hollywood. None. So there you go.Kevin Lewandowski:You just got to knock on some doors. I think people that work in the industry, they know kind of how it works. Once you break in, you become a pa, and you make those network connections with production coordinators that you've worked with and people on the show, and you build those genuine relationships and you do good. Then when they go to the next show and they're like, Hey, we need someone, then they'll reach out to you andMichael Jamin:They're not reaching out for you because they're as a favor to you. They're reaching out to you because we need to hire someone. And I don't really want to spend days interviewing.Kevin Lewandowski:I already know you can do the job. It's so much easier just to bring you aboard.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. It's not like a favor to you. It's a favor to them.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah.Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time, his knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker View says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question, all nighters cinema, what makes your script stand out? If it's a book adaptation and the story isn't your original story,Michael Jamin:Well, do you have the rights to adapt? A book is one question. So if you don't, I probably wouldn't adapt it. And that's not to say that when people think you adapt a book, you still have to have these act break pops. These scenes have to unfold. It's not like books are a slam dunk to adapt. I mean, there's definitely some art and craft that has to be applied to turning into a script. So that's how you make it stand out.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think one of the other things you like to say is if you have a book, there might be a few different stories happening throughout that book. And in your paper orchestra, one of the examples you get, oh, I forget what it was called about the swing dance, and I forgot that chapterMichael Jamin:Was called Yes, swing and a Miss.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. As you said, there was other stuff happening at that point in your life, but it was just this story was the one you wanted to tell. Of course you were going to work and doing stuff like that, but this was the story you wanted to tell.Michael Jamin:Right. And also, how many times have you seen they've adapted a book, I don't know, a popular book into a TV show movie? And sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad. It's because it's not as simple as simply typing the book.Kevin Lewandowski:And a lot of times people say the book was even better or the book was better anyways. And I mean, it's hard to take 300 pages of a book and consented toMichael Jamin:An hour and a half movie. Right.Kevin Lewandowski:David Sallow, what if you a show idea that you have done the work on and think it uniquely speaks to the present moment? Are there any shortcuts possible there or noMichael Jamin:Shortcuts to what? You got to write a script. Yeah. There's no shortcuts to write in a good script, and there's no shortcuts to selling it. There's no shortcuts anywhere. Shortcuts. When does shortcuts ever work? I don't know. Where are the shortcuts? Yeah, little Ed riding Hood. Other than that, in real life, you got to put the work in. Right.Kevin Lewandowski:Do you ever watch the, there's a documentary about the South Park creators and how from they, from blank page to delivering the episode, how many days do you think,Michael Jamin:Well, I know they're super fast, so I would say five,Kevin Lewandowski:Six.Michael Jamin:Six.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay. Six days. That's very fast. They are delivering it like a half hour before it's supposed to. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And that's because the animation process is so crude that they can do it so quickly, but that's fast,Kevin Lewandowski:And we've just gotten used to it that way. So I think with them in an interesting way, that's why their shows seem like their current and present, because something could have happened in the news last week, and then that episode could air next week. Whereas other animation shows, and I know you've worked in animation, sometimes it's seven, eight months before that episode,Michael Jamin:Or it could be nine months, nine months animated show. So yeah, you don't do anything top of one within in an animated show, not the ones I've done.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Next question. What if I wrote lyrics to the theme song? Is that okay to include? I think this might be in the context of one of the things you say in your scripts, don't write music cues. Don't write, don't put song lyrics in there, or something like that.Michael Jamin:I mean, if you think you got fantastic lyrics and you're going to really impress the hell out of someone, but you still have to, when I'm reading the script, I have to imagine what the music is, and I'm not going to imagine the music. And I suppose you can write the lyrics and maybe some people will read it and some won't. So it's up to you. Do you really think it's fantastic or not?Kevin Lewandowski:I had a couple scripts that I put part of a song in there and then listening to, I'm like, no, it's coming out, taking it out.Michael Jamin:In my opinion, there's really no, I'm not crazy about reading that.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah,Michael Jamin:I mean, maybe others are, I don't know.Kevin Lewandowski:Well, I think, I think back to my script, it was I just kind of being lazy. Could I take that three eighths of a page and add something in there that's going to help move the storyline further, or was I just looking for a, what's a funny moment I could have right now?Michael Jamin:Right. Okay.Kevin Lewandowski:Let's see. From Aaron, in terms of recognizing good writing, writing, what is considered too much in terms of providing direction to actors, description of character, thoughts and emotions, et cetera?Michael Jamin:The less the better, in my opinion. You don't want let the actors do their job, and if you feel you can't convey the anger in a scene or the love in a scene with dialogue and you're yelling at the actors, do it this way, then you haven't done your job as the writer do your job. Not everyone else's. As far as action lines go, I am of the camp that the shorter the better because most writers or most people reading do not want to read your action line. I suppose one day, if get, I think when you get more successful, if you're Aaron Sorkin, you can write whatever the hell you want. You're, because he writes his actions line. I imagine poetry, it's probably his action lines are probably just as interesting as his dialogue because he's such a great writer, but don't count on it when you're starting off.Kevin Lewandowski:I was reading something, I forgot who the actor was, but they said, the actor always requested that their script have commas and apostrophes taken out of dialogue because they felt like they didn't want someone telling them how to say things. And I was like, I can respect as an actor, but I was like, that poor script coordinator, they have to go through that whole script again and take everything out.Michael Jamin:That's a little bit much to me. It seems like putting a comma there is like that's just grammar. And if they wanted to take it out, I think they should do it themselves, but whatever,Kevin Lewandowski:From Jonathan Loudon, again, how many feature films have you written, pitched, but never sold?Michael Jamin:Well, we wrote one completely as a spec, and that did not sell, but that got us a producer interested in our writing, and then we wrote two more that did sell as pitches. We pitched them first, then we got paid to write the script. And as far as I can remember, I don't think we wrote any other feature scripts. I think we maybe had some ideas that were batting around, but we never actually pitched or wrote, but we work mostly in tv.Kevin Lewandowski:So do you know, because from what I can recall, you've never sold a feature that actually went into production, correct. Right,Michael Jamin:Right. They they never do.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. And how do you think you would feel, because as you say, tv, the showrunner head writer has the final say, and on a feature, it's the director that has the final say. I worked with someone, his name's Steve Rudnick, and he wrote Space Jam and the Santa Clause movies with Tim Allen, and he told me this story how he was at a baseball game and he saw someone walking down the aisle and it had a Space jam cast and crew jacket. And he asked the guy and he was like, can I ask you where you got that jacket? That's a really cool jacket. And he's like, oh, I worked on production. This was all our rap gifts, and Steve never got one because writers usually aren't part of the production aspect onMichael Jamin:Feature, and he was accredited writer on it. Right. That's what an actor thought he was. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's probably common. I don't know why people want to become writers on movies. I mean, it would be cool, but maybe he was heavily rewritten. Maybe he was, I don't know.Kevin Lewandowski:He was so bummed. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. He wasn't invited to anything.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Right. Geo, could you elaborate on the things not to say to executives or some examples of what the producer said?Michael Jamin:What the producer said? I'm not sure I answered the question.Kevin Lewandowski:So can you elaborate on the things, so I guess as a writer, and maybe you gave your script to an executive and they were giving you feedback or said, Hey, maybe do this, do this. How would you respond to those notes?Michael Jamin:Yeah, you want to be positive. Great. We'll work on that. Thank you. Good idea. Interesting thought. We'll definitely do our best with that, and then later, hopefully you can take 90% of the notes and the ones you can't take, you say, I think we address the spirit of your note. Even if we couldn't address your notes or this one, we couldn't make it work occasionally, but you're doing 90% of the notes. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:I think the phrase I would always hear on notes calls is, okay, well, yeah, we'll take a look at it. We'll take a look at that. Yeah,Michael Jamin:We'll take a look at it. Yeah. We,Kevin Lewandowski:Next question from Cody, with short seasons, freelance opportunities have mostly gone away, but are there still opportunities for freelance, and if so, how are writers polled in for those?Michael Jamin:I don't know. That's a good question because that's a question. You'd have to look that up with the Writer's Guild. I don't remember on our last show there, I don't recall ever having those guys doing freelance, giving off freelance episodes to anyone. So it used to be a Writer's Guild mandate if the show was a certain length that they had to give out a certain number of freelancers. And now maybe they don't have to, but I wouldn't either way get it out of your head that you're ever going to sell a freelance episode because it's just so over my 28 years, I think I've sold maybe three freelance episodes and I would do more. It's not a problem. It's just that they're really hard to get.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think a lot of times what happens in writer's rooms is those writer's assistants and script coordinators that have proved their worth for a couple of seasons. If that opportunity comes for them to get a freelance episode, the showrunner helps 'em out with that, and that helps them get into the Writer's Guild and things likeMichael Jamin:That. That's usually a bone you throw those support staff after they've been there a couple of years.Kevin Lewandowski:That's a nice bonus. It's a nice check to get. Next question, David Campbell. Does the creator continue to have involvement or do you teach them on the job?Michael Jamin:If someone creates the show and they are not the showrunner, which just happened on a couple shows we've done. We were not the showrunner and the creator had involved. They were on the writing staff, but they didn't have any say. They didn't have the final say or anything. If we are the showrunner, whoever's the runner has final say. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question, nerds and friends, how many writers' rooms are virtual remote nowadays? What is the path to becoming a showrunner? Is it a writer pivoting into that role? I can imagine producing experience helps.Michael Jamin:No, so a showrunner is the head writer. The way you become a showrunner is by being a writer on many shows and being good at writing, and then the producing aspect of the job. You kind of learn on the job as you rise up the ranks. You don't have to take a course or there's no certification, and it's something you can fake.Kevin Lewandowski:For me, I never really understood what the word producer meant. No one in the context of television, because it's working in the industry, you learn, okay, writers can be producers, but then sometimes accountants, if they're high enough, they can also be producers. And not every producer is necessarily like the creative vision. Some of them deal with the money aspect of it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. They're non-writing producers or non-writing executive producers, they'reKevin Lewandowski:Called. Yeah. Next question, K with an asterisk next to it. Are series filmed for streaming services similar to TV regarding creative control for the show runner?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yes.Kevin Lewandowski:Easy question. Yeah, all-nighter cinema. How different is trying to greenlight a serial TV show versus a mini series?Michael Jamin:It just depends on what the network, usually they're buying series. They're not buying mini series there. Sometimes they're buying limited series. It just depends on the network. And I wouldn't even approach, again, your goal is to write one great script as a writing sample, and it's not to time the market and figure out who's buying what. Can you write a script? Answer that question first,Kevin Lewandowski:Right? If a studio buys your pilot but ends up passing and an exec at another studio is interested, how realistic is it that they'll buy it againMichael Jamin:If the first one will buy it?Kevin Lewandowski:I don't know. I'm wondering if they're asking just because one studio passes on your script, does that mean every studio is going to pass on it?Michael Jamin:No. No. Usually if you're lucky, you pitch to five studios and one buys it. That's how they don't all want to buy it. You're lucky if one wants to buy it. But again, what's frustrating about all these questions that we're hearing is everyone's saying, how do I make money selling a script? And no one's saying, how do I write a good script? Everyone is already assuming that. It's just so damn frustrating. It's like, guys, what do you think? How do you think this is going to work? It's not about the meeting. It's about writing a damn good script. First thing's first. So I don't know, what are you going to do? I yell into the wind. People don't listen to me on this.Kevin Lewandowski:I listen. They'll listen. They'll listen. Yeah. I mean, I think there's almost this weird delusion that people think they're going to move out here within a year. They're going to have their own show. And I was just talking to someone the other day that they're going to USC, and she was talking about kind of her timeline with things, and she said, I want to give myself five years from when I graduate in 2025 to try to get into a writer's room. And when she said that to me, I said, very realistic. That's not too quick that, because there's a lot of luck of, IMichael Jamin:Thought you were going to say have her own show on the air.Kevin Lewandowski:No, no. She was very much, if I can be in a writer's room in five years. So I thought, yeah, because tough, because if you can get on that show that season one, it's not a hit yet, then it becomes a hit that can definitely fast track you a little bit. And my struggle has been, none of the pilots I've worked on have gotten picked up and shows have gotten canceled. And I'd like to believe that's not my fault, but it's hard to look at the No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.Michael Jamin:But yeah. But it's a little frustrating when people ask these questions sound to me like when I hit a grand Slam, who do I high five first? They're like, dude, can you get on base? Do you know how to get a base hit? What are you talking about? Just get a base hit first. So that's what it sounds like to me. And I wish people would just have more realistic expectations and would take a little more, everyone's assuming they already knew how to do the hard part.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Next question, given that streaming has changed the face of sitcom series writing, how do you feel about the future of the industry? Are there days of having full writer's room and staff over?Michael Jamin:It certainly seems that way, but who knows right now, if you follow what's going on, it seems like, it seems like everything's becoming, we're slowly moving back to the old days. There's going to be fewer streamers. They're going to be consolidation. They're already talking about these big streamers merging. And when that happens, things will change, but we don't really know. Right now, the industry's at a crossroads. They're not picking up a lot of shows. Now. They will pick up start. That will happen. And imagine a couple of, it can't go on much longer. They got to have to start pulling the trigger and start making TV shows again. So we don't know. We're at the crossroads,Kevin Lewandowski:Because I think you said back when you were working on, just Shoot Me In, I think you said King of the Hill, there was more than 15 writers on King. KingMichael Jamin:Of the Hill. We had 20 writers in King of the Hill, and we were do 22 episodes in a season.Kevin Lewandowski:And how many were on Just Shoot Me?Michael Jamin:Well, let's see. In the beginning, I would say it's closer to maybe 10 or so, maybe 12 at some point.Kevin Lewandowski:And in your experience, do you think comedy rooms always have more writersMichael Jamin:Than drama? I don't know. I mean, it just really depends on the budget of the show and how many episodes you're going to be doing.Kevin Lewandowski:I think I was watching something about Breaking Bad, and I think they had six writers.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? That's it.Kevin Lewandowski:Wow. On why Women Kill. We had five.Michael Jamin:The thing about drama is that you don't have to, it is easier in the sense that when you're writing a comedy, you still need to have that structure. You still need to come up with a story that is engaging, but it also has to be funny. But when you're doing the drama, you just need to come up with an engaging story, and it doesn't have to be funny, and you don't have to punch up the lines. And in that sense, I do think it's a little easier, but that's not to say writing Breaking Bad is easy. I mean, what a great show that works.Kevin Lewandowski:Right, right. Next question from maybe, are there tutorials and Final Draft, a proper guide for making your script presentation acceptable?Michael Jamin:What do you think? I don't know. I haven't looked at the tutorials.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I mean, I think the nice thing about Final Draft is they have pre-built templates that you can use. So if you're writing a Multicam, it'll prebuilt that template and everything will automatically be capitalized for you. And same thing with Single Cam. And I think one of the things you always say is when you hand your script to someone, they're not going to know you use Final Draft or one of these other programs to write the script. They're just going to get a printed out version. And I think there's minimal things you need to do, make sure the dialogue is in the middle of the page and certain things are capitalized, and there's a certain format formatting of that. But Final Draft can take care of all that too. So when you're done writing, you just hit file, export as PDF, and that's it. You're done. All the four is done.Michael Jamin:I mean, final Draft, like you said, has those templates, and it'll make your script look like a script, which is great. You got a script, you got something that looks like a script, but does it read like a script?Kevin Lewandowski:Right. Har Draft does not do that for you. Yeah, it won'tMichael Jamin:Do that.Kevin Lewandowski:Michael's course does.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I hope,Kevin Lewandowski:Lorenzo, given your friendship with the late David Bellini, have you got any insights on Italian films, TV industry, in your opinion? Is there any difference? Thank you.Michael Jamin:From what I knew from David. David when he was a lot, the difference is enormous. It's a whole different film structure over there. It's not so much of an industry as it is. I don't know. It sounded like really hard. And he was pretty successful. He worked on a bunch of shows, and he moved to LA to Hollywood because he was like, this is too crazy here. This is just not enough work. So I think it was a miracle that he was as successful as he was there, but it's a whole different ballgameKevin Lewandowski:If the script doesn't have scenes in it. How should it be written? Is it just dialogue and descriptions? Do you have any advice for someone who wants to be a script doctor?Michael Jamin:Okay. The script does have to have scenes in it. It can't be all one scene. That's not going to be acceptable. A script doctor is not really, that's some bullshit that people say on the internet. No one I've ever met ever called themselves a script doctor. We're all screenwriters. And sometimes you sell your own work, and sometimes you're brought in to rewrite somebody else's, and there's no script doctor. You don't get a degree and you don't wear a stethoscope. And that's not a job. It's just sometimes will get paid to rewrite someone else's script, but you'll only get that job if you're a really good writer and you've written some really good scripts on your own. And then when you do, usually you're like, hell, I'll just write. I want to write my own stuff. And you're brought in to change someone else's script because it's like, all right, someone's giving me money and here's a job, and I'm in between jobs, so I'll do it.Kevin Lewandowski:There's no shortcuts. A couple more questions, Aaron. How many followers, subscribers would someone need to have on social media for that to be interesting and asset to a studio or showrunner?Michael Jamin:Literally have no idea. And I'm not sure it would be interesting to a showrunner at all as far as the studio, in terms of being a writer. You're not expected to have a social media following at all. I just happen to have one, but it's not right. No one's, no one ever asked me, no one really cares. The benefit is I can promote my own stuff. I have a following, but for a writer, you don't need that.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. And then our last question, is it okay to make the size of the words on the title page a little bit bigger?Michael Jamin:I suppose it is. I don't try to do anything fancy, but I don't know why you want to. It's okay if you want to. It's not desperate, but I don't know. I try to make it, I want my script to look like just an ordinary script. I want the pages themselves, the dialogue to stand out. I'm not really trying to make the cover page stand out.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I think it's like when writing any paper you did in college or whatever the title is, 18 font, and then the stuffy writing is 12 font or whatever.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you can do that.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I think one of the things you said is the title page. No one necessarily cares about that. If you put a fancy image on there, that's not going to, people aren't going to be like, oh, we got to hire this person. We got to hire this person right now.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Don't even give any thought to the title. I mean, really. You're not going to fool anybody. So yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Well, that is all the questions we have from that webinar.Michael Jamin:Wow. Excellent. Kevin, you did really well. You're a natural here. Thanks. Yeah. Alright, everyone. Thank you. Please continue coming to our webinars. We do 'em every few weeks. To sign up, go to michael jamin.com/webinar. I got a book out. I hope you all get it. Sign copies are available @michaeljamin.com slash book. And if you want to come see me on tour, go to michael jamin.com/upcoming. Kevin, where can people find you?Kevin Lewandowski:I'm on social media, Kevin Lewandowski. Sorry it's a very long last name. It gets butchered a lot, but I'm there. And yeah, I occasionally make appearances with Michael on these webinars and things like that. So yeah. Thank you all for who's been coming to the webinars and checking out Michael's stuff. Just go to michael jamen.com and just start clicking around. There's a bunch of stuff you can get his free scripts, stuff he's written. There's free lessons up there. Every podcast we do gets uploaded there. You can spend hours on that websites. Just go there, click around, buy the book byMichael Jamin:The book. Thank you so much buddy. Alright. You're just going to stick around. Kevin's going to be back next week for another episode. I believe it's next week. We will see when it drops, but he's going to be back around for another one. Alright, everyone, until then, keep writing, keep being creative and all that stuff. Thanks so much.Michael Jamin:Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most. Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More great stuff coming next week.

On this week's episode, I have actress Paula Marshall (Euphoria, Walker, Gary Unmarried, and many many more) and we dive into the origins of his career. We also talk about how she dealt with being a new mom and working on a sitcom at the same time. There is so much more so make sure you tune in.Show NotesPaula Marshall on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thepaulamarshall/?hl=enPaula Marshall IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005191/Paula Marshall on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_MarshallA Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptPaula Marshall:But a lot of parents, they go to jobs and then they come home or they don't work at all, and then it's just mom 100% and they're probably exhausted and happy. Some of my friends, I feel like they're like, I'm so glad. Finally I get to whatever. And either they're retiring and they get to go travel and like, no, I'm an actor. I'm looking for a gig, whatever. I don't think actors ever truly retire. I think we don't. I don't.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations and writing, art and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Welcome everyone. My next guest is actress Paula Marshall. She has been, I worked with her years ago on a show called Out of Practice, I think it was like 2005. But Paul, before I let you get a word in edgewise, I got to tell everyone, your credits are crazy long, so your intro may take a long time. So I'm going to just give you some of the highlights to remind you of your incredible body of work here. Really these are just the highlights. She works a ton. So well, let's see. I guess we could start with One Life To Live. That might've been your first one. Grapevine Life goes on. Wonder Years Seinfeld. I heard of that one. Perry Mason diagnosis. Murder Wild Oats. I'm skipping here. Nash Bridges. You did a couple Chicago Suns Spin. City Cupid Snoops Sports Night, the Weber Show. It doesn't end.Just shoot Me, which I worked on. I didn't even know you were on that. Maybe I wasn't there. Hitting Hills and Out of Practice, which we did together. Veronica Mars, nip Tuck, shark ca Fornication. You did a bunch of Gary Unmarried House friends with Benefits, the exes CSI, the Mentalist, two and a Half Men Murder in the First Major Crimes. What else have we got here? Goer Gibbons, I dunno what that is. You have to tell me what that is. And then Modern Family Euphoria. You did a bunch of them. Walker. Paula, I'm exhausted and I'm going to steal your joke here. You can because I'm going to say you're Paula Marshall, but you may know me as Carla Gina. That's what used to tell me CarlaPaula Marshall:And I know Carla,Michael Jamin:But knowPaula Marshall:She's like the younger version of me. Slightly shorter,Michael Jamin:Bigger, bigger. Boop. But you have done so much. I'm going to jump, I'm going to jump into the hardest part. I'm wondering if this is the hardest part for you is being a guest star on a show because you have to jump in with the cast, you have to know the rules and everything. Is that harder?Paula Marshall:Yes, a hundred percent. It's harder when I guest star on any shows, if I haven't seen the show, I watch three or four on YouTube just so I know who's who and the vibe and the energy. When I guest star on Modern Family I their last season and some could say I canceled the show by being there. I've been called a show killerMichael Jamin:Before. I remember You don't let Right.Paula Marshall:I still have not let that go. I like to say I've just worked on so many different shows at its peak and then it died anyway. It's hard because they're all in a flow and depending on the other actors, how cool they are to kind of throw the ball at you.Michael Jamin:But do you have to identify who's the alpha dog on set? Is that what your plan is? It'sPaula Marshall:Pretty clear right away. Really? Yeah. I mean besides whoever's first on the call sheet, I remember one of the producers of Snoop's, David Kelly's first big bomb. That was me.Michael Jamin:It was a sure thing what happened?Paula Marshall:You know what? I'm not sure. Well, when it was supposed to be a comedy quickly turned into a drama, it was not great. But as one of the producers of Snoop said, you don't fuck with the first person on the call sheet. You don't fuck with him. And so you identify that person and depending, it's funny because I've worked with so many great people and so many assholes too. Like David Deney. Damn, is he cool? He's so nice. When I worked on fornication with him, he set a tone for just the set, the crew, the actors, this freedom just to try things. And I remember during my, it was like the first day naked throwing up,Michael Jamin:Wait, were you nervous? Why were you throwing up?Paula Marshall:Hello? Of course. But IMichael Jamin:Remember you're never nervous, Paul, let me tell you who you were. I'm totally nervous. No, you're the most self-assured person probably I've ever worked with. You're very confident.Paula Marshall:Thank you. I'm actingMichael Jamin:Acting.Paula Marshall:But California occasion, it was my first day onset naked, fake fucking. And I remember standing there, it was yesterday, and either tweaking you and touching you up. And I say to everyone, what's amazing, what I'll do for $2,900 when a strike is pending? It was the writer's strike way back in the day. And I remember getting this part on fornication and I'm like to all the girls in the audition room, when we used to have auditions in rooms with other people, I looked around, I'm like, we're not going to really have to be naked. We're not those type of actresses. And they're like, no, no, no. And I'm like standing there. Yeah, yeah. I was naked.Michael Jamin:Was that your first time in a show being naked? I meanPaula Marshall:ToplessMichael Jamin:ShowPaula Marshall:On a show?Michael Jamin:Yes. Because you were in a model, I'm sure as a model, you're doing wardrobe changes all the time.Paula Marshall:I used to model. I was naked a few things back in the day.Michael Jamin:So were you really nervous about it? I mean, I imagine you would be, butPaula Marshall:Standing there naked is one thing. You just kind of have to dive in the pool, in the cold, cold pool and let it go because you got to put on the confident jacket, I guess I obviously wore a lot around you, but I mean it's more uncomfortable, the fake sex scenes, it's more technical and awkward. It's just but nervous. I dunno. Yeah, you're excited. But I'm also excited when I walk on stage on a sitcom before, if I'm not already in the set, when they start rolling, I'm backstage. How's my hair? Shit, how am I doing? Okay? I get hyped up until you do it once and people laugh and you're like, oh,Michael Jamin:Okay. Are you worried about going up on your lines at all? Is that at all you're thinking about?Paula Marshall:Yes, especially now. Oh shit, my memory. It's just that prevagen, I'm going to look it up later, but yeah, you do. But if you in a sitcom situation, we run it, we rehearse it all week. StillMichael Jamin:The lines are changing all week. That's all IPaula Marshall:Know. But they're changing all week. But then you run it and you drill it on TV shows like euphoria or whatever. Yeah, you run it. But then again, they don't really change the lines at all. But yeah, you were a little bit, but then you got a great script supervisor that you're like, I'm up. And then they say it and then you go back and you do it. But yeah, always, I'm always really nervous until maybe the second takeMichael Jamin:Of any, the hardest thing it seems to me is just like, okay, you're naked and you have to forget that there's all these people there. You havePaula Marshall:ToMichael Jamin:Completely, it's almost like you're crazy to have to be able to forget that,Paula Marshall:Michael, when you paid $2,900.That's right. I was shocked. That's all you get for being naked. Yeah, you do. You are nervous. But I don't know. I was 40 then, so I looked pretty good naked, although I only had four days notice. Back then we didn't have ozempic, so I was like, okay, I can't, no salt, no bread. And I remember in that shot that the camera guy, they decided in the moment, Hey, can you walk over to David? And then bent over, he's on the bed and then kiss him. I'm like, well, that depends. What's your lens there? You got there? And I'm like, how wide is your lens? And he looked at me and I'm like, I'm a photographer. I like taking pictures. So I know. And I'm like, so I'm going to bend over with my white ass and I had four days notice on this and my ass is just going to be in the pretty much. And you're like, okay, I could do it. But you hope for body makeup. I don't know. Don't you think I had any, I should have demanded bodyMichael Jamin:Makeup. And this was probably even before there were, what do they call them now? IntimacyPaula Marshall:Coordinators?Michael Jamin:Yes. Right.Paula Marshall:I mean, here's the thing. I guess it helps when you're not a loud mouth person like me. And even then it's hard to go, Hey dude, keep your tongue in your mouth. You don't want it in your mouth. Sometimes you're like, damn. He's a great kisser. Jason Bateman, I enjoyed the tongue in my mouth. SoMichael Jamin:It kind of dependsPaula Marshall:On who's sticking in the tongue. But the intimacy coordinator, I think it's just so people know what's going to kind of happen and get it. But California case, no, we didn't have that. This movie I was naked on with Peter Weller called The New Age. No, I remember in the middle of the scene, I'm on the bed and he's looking down at me and during one take he decides to suck on my nipple. Shocking. I turned bright red, which is what I do when I get nervous. And I'm like, dude, what are you doing? He goes, I dunno, I just thought it'd be fun. I'm like, okay. And I don't think they used it, but if there was an intimacy coordinator back then, I probably would've known.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So it'sPaula Marshall:Good I guess. But it's corny and you feel silly.Michael Jamin:Oh my God, I'm glad you mentioned the photography thing. That was one of my memories from working together and out of practice. This was before people had camera phones and cell phones and you carried a camera everywhere. And I remember thinking, you're the star of a sitcom. You're the star. I mean, you're an artist doing her craft, and yet it's still not enough that you wanted to work on something. You wanted to do something else as well.Paula Marshall:Maybe it's my parents growing up, they always had these really cool black and white pictures of them. And I used to look at them and go, wow, that was your life then. And it was hard to even imagine when they were so young. And so it's like photos are life to me. And I guess I don't want to forget the moments of my life that are important. And so I always would bring a camera with me on set, on location more than sitcom stages aren't as conducive to really cool shots. But yeah, I like capturing life.Michael Jamin:And you're still doing it on 35Paula Marshall:Millimeter? I still do it, although I did give in and I have a digital now because it's easier. It's easier. Develop film.Michael Jamin:Many. You took my headshot from me and for many years I way too long. I used that as my headshot.Paula Marshall:Yeah, it was good. I rememberMichael Jamin:It was great. And I wore Danny's shirt, you go, yeah, put this on. You look terrible. Whatever I was wearing, stillPaula Marshall:Do that. People still come over my friends and I'm like, you need a headshot. Put Danny's shirt on. He has some nice shirts.Michael Jamin:It's so funny.Paula Marshall:Yeah, I do. I still like taking pictures.Michael Jamin:I got to share another memory I had from out of practice, which I cherish this one. So it was right before it was show night for some reason. I don't know why. I had to run up pages to the cast. And maybe you were in the green room or you were somewhere upstairs. I don't know what the hell dressing. I don't know what was going on. I knock on the door and all of you we're standing in a circle holding hands. And Henry goes, Michael, you're just in inside. Come on in. And then I go in time for what? And then he tapped. This blew my, I love this memory. And you guys were just like, I don't know what you would call it, but you were invoking a good show to be supportive of each other and to be brave and true. And I was like, I can't believe I felt so honored that I was included in, I was like, are you serious,Paula Marshall:Henry? I actually forgot that memory and thank you for reminding me of it. Henry's just, he's something special.Michael Jamin:He is.Paula Marshall:I know there's rumors. Oh, who's the nicest guy in Hollywood? Henry Winkler. It's because it is, is I could text him right now and he would literally text me. Within eight minutes he will text me back. Oh, Paula, it's been so, he's just a dear. And so he is, again, back to the, when you go on set and who creates that energy? Although Chris Gorham, I think was the first on the call sheet, not Henry Winkler, but Henry was our dad. I mean, he was such a pro and yeah, he just created this lovely energy there.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Oh wow. So that's not common then for other shows that you've worked on. People don't do that. That's not a theater thing. It seems like a theater thingPaula Marshall:You would think. I think, I don't know, maybe it was a happy days thing.Michael Jamin:Why don't you start it on your next show? Why don't you start doingPaula Marshall:It? I think I might. I'm going to make it now.Michael Jamin:I thought it was so interesting. I was like, wow. But it's getting back to that first point, even the first, the first person on the call sheet technically is the head cheese. But they might not be the most difficult by far at all. I mean, you don't know who's the boss. That's true, right?Paula Marshall:I mean sometimes the and character is an asshole. I mean, I think mostly people when they don't really want to be there, they kind of rebel. I've always wanted to be on a sitcom. IMichael Jamin:Remember. Did that change? Oh, go ahead, please.Paula Marshall:I just remember, I believe my first sitcom was Seinfeld. I may have done a guest spot on some other one that maybe never aired or I can't remember. Or maybe I just think it's cooler to say my first sitcom was Seinfeld. I'm not sure. But that show, I don't know. There's a magic. But they didn't do any of that either. But they kind of really invited me in and I dunno, I'm just thinking,Michael Jamin:Do you prefer to do sitcoms, multi-camera sitcoms? Yes. Yes. Because the audience.Paula Marshall:Because the audience, because it's a high, I've never gotten anywhere else in my life. Not that I need to be high, but damn. When you go out and you make people laugh with a look or a line or a physical movement, I mean it's magic. And working with the actor, knowing more like theater, which by the way, I've never doneMichael Jamin:Well, why don't you do theater then?Paula Marshall:I don't know. I don't know. I'll call my agent another thing I'll write down.Michael Jamin:Yeah, do that.Paula Marshall:But probably only if it's a comedy. But it's that magic that you don't have to go and do another take and then they turn around and then you got a close up again. I mean, it's boring. Like our television, there's no magic in itMichael Jamin:Ever.Paula Marshall:Except on euphoria. I have to say there's magic there.Michael Jamin:Why do you say that?Paula Marshall:Because the writing directing the story level of, I mean, when Marsha is my character, when Marsha actually had a couple things to say. I remember I called or I spoke with Sam Levinson and I was like, dude, it's me, right? You wrote an eight page monologue almost for Marsha to say. And he goes, yeah, I can't wait to see it. And I'm like, oh my God. I was so nervous. I studied for three weeks. There was no rewrites. And then it's me and Jacob all Lorde on set. And we get there and there's no rush, there's no limitation. There's just like, what do you want to do? And he's like, I kind of feel like you're doing this and then you're doing the cookies and a lot of movement. But we did it until it felt good, and then we knew it, and there was a magic there. No one's laughing at me. But there's something special about that show. I mean, I've heard rumors like, oh, and on set. And I'm like, ah, not for me. Not for me at all. Not for you. No, it's amazing.Michael Jamin:What do you do though? When you're on set and you have an idea how you want to play or speech, how you want to deliver speech, and your scene partner is just on doing something completely fucking different. How do you handle that?Paula Marshall:If you know, don't have a say, meaning you're a guest, darn. You do what they tell you to. How high do you want me to jump? That's what you do. But if you're working together and you're equal parties, you probably have run it before. But I would say if they're not doing something that I want, then I use it and I am frustrated in the scene, or I just use whatever they're giving me because that's all I got. And I try to put that into my character.Michael Jamin:How much training have you had though? That's very actor speak.Paula Marshall:It really did sound a little actory, and IMichael Jamin:Apologize for that. No, it's good. I like it.Paula Marshall:I mean, I don't know. I lived in New York City and I took acting class with this guy named Tony Aon and Jennifer Aniston was in my class and Oh wow.Just a bunch of young people, but not all that much. Not all that much. I think the comedy thing, I didn't even know I was funny with Seinfeld, the guest stars aren't usually funny in sitcoms. The lead, the main characters, the stars of the show are funny guest stars just kind of throw the ball and you know what I mean? But something happened after I was on Seinfeld and then I read for, I guess it was Wild Oats, which was with Paul Rudd and Jan Marie hpp. And Tim Conlin. It was a sitcom on Fox. It was the same year that another show called Friends was coming out. And I remember them. Someone was interviewing us saying, oh, there's another show that NBC is doing with a group of friends. It's kind of like yours. And we're all friends. What's that cut to?And ours was canceled after one season, but I think the first time I was like, oh shit, I can do this. I know how to deliver a joke. But I never learned that again. It just happened one year in pilot season just kind of happened. And my agents were like, oh, Paul is funny. Okay. And then one time I remember I read for a pilot, after you do so many comedies, then people go, well, she's a comedic actress, she can't do drama. And then you're like, the fuck. Of course I could do drama. I remember one time during this callback, no original, just the first audition. And I had heard the casting director doesn't think or only thinks you're funny, doesn't think you're as good. Dramatic. Wow.Michael Jamin:Obviously if you could do comedy, you could do drama.Paula Marshall:No, you would think it's the other way around. It never works. It is really hard to doMichael Jamin:Comedy.Paula Marshall:But literally, I was like, well, I'm so angry that she thinks I can't. Finally, they couldn't find this girl, the character for the pilot. And then they finally, okay, Paula, we'll see her. So I get in there, and it was Davis Guggenheim was the director. I love Davis. After I read, I think it was three scenes. And during the last scene, I broke down and I was in tears over something and I look up with, you couldn't have placed the tear better. And I look up and I ended the scene and Davis goes, my god, Paula Marshall, you are one fine actress. And I do this. I look at the casting drifter and I go, you see, I'm not just funny. And I grabbed my bag and I walked out and I go, well, I just fucked myself for any future director again. There was something that came over me and I was like, I need you to know that I am not just one thing or the other. And then Davis probably three weeks later, texts me, I've been fighting every day for you. And I'm like, what are you talking about when you get these weird texts from people? I'm like, did I get the part? I got the part and they didn't want to see me.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. I mean, obviously you're a working actor, you work a lot. You're successful, and yet you still feel like you're placed in this box and you have to prove yourself and get out of it.Paula Marshall:But there's something I really love about, there's part of me that I want to read, and I want everyone to look at that tape and go, fuck, I wish we could hire her. I wish there weren't the limitations and we didn't have to pick Carla at you now or whatever. I wish we could pick Paula. I want them to go, fuck man. She was really good. I want to stick in their brain. I always would cancel auditions if I wasn't ready for it. If I really knew I wasn't going to kill it, I wouldn't go, or I won't put myself on tape. I don't have enough time to prepare for it because that's the last thing they see of you.Michael Jamin:IPaula Marshall:Want it to be the best thing they see of me. So I only want to leave them with that because they're not going to remember that other stuff.Michael Jamin:That's a good point though. Are you doing a lot of self tape now? Is there anything in person?Paula Marshall:I have not had any auditions in person yet. Wow. Her actress ever Carradine. I think she's had her third one, and she always posts about it. She's so cute. And I think she booked one. No, I have a room now in my house. It's the tape room. And I've got a nice beauty light and I've got the tripod again. It's kind of easy for me because I have photography stuff.Michael Jamin:But who are you acting again or does Danny help you out?Paula Marshall:Well, Danny will sometimes read with me. My daughter would read with me. And sometimes when I'm all by myself, I read with myself. I will have a tape of the other voice, which is, or sometimes I leave space and then I put the audio in later. I mean, it's crazy the stuff that happens during Covid. We've got very creative over here.Michael Jamin:But in some ways though, because this sometimes a casting director is like, yeah, yeah, there couldn't be more wooden. And so in some ways it's got to be easier for you, right?Paula Marshall:Yes and no. Yes, because I get to pick the take I want,Michael Jamin:Right?Paula Marshall:Two, because two, I didn't even say one a b, I don't get nervous, so there's no nerves to hold me back or Oh man, I should have done it. Or I mess up. I just do another take. But then there's also, there's something about going in and being vulnerable in front of all those people and showing them what you can do. And especially in a comedy, I, it was like a zoom callback for a comedy. And I live in the hills and maybe it was the wifi or that slight timing was off just enough or the reader wasn't funny and I'm trying to connect with this dot. It was hard. There was no magic in it and you couldn't feel the other person. And so I think in a way, it's good in a way. It's really not good. So I'm willing to do whatever to get anything because I pay for college.Michael Jamin:But also, there's also the fact the to drive across town, I mean, that's got to get old, right? Driving everywhere.Paula Marshall:But when you're an actor, everything stops. You get a script, everything stops. You're not making dinner, you're not going out, you're not watching that movie or the show. You drop everything and then you focus on it. And hopefully, thankfully, because of the strike and the new negotiations that they got for us, I think we don't have to do a self tape over the weekend. We need to have enough time to actually prepare for it, which is amazing. Most of the time. Gary unmarried, I think I got the audition at eight o'clock in the morning. It was to meet producers at 11 o'clock the next day. And you're like, ah, okay, here I go. It's really hard to put all that energy and to them something great. And I never understand why you're casting people or producers. Don't give us more time because we want to give you something great. We don't want to go in there and read. I don't. I want to perform for you. And it's hard to do when I don't have enough time to do it. I also have a life, so I have other things, but you kind of do. You really drop it. You drop everything for an audition.Michael Jamin:It's interesting though. I want to get touched on something you said. You said it's hard to be vulnerable on camera, but then you said comedy, and do you feel like it's harder to be vulnerable? Because when I think of vulnerable, I think drama, not comedy.Paula Marshall:Yes. But there's nothing funnier. I remember my husband in many situations will say, I'll be upset or crying and I'll say something really funny, but humor comes out of the reality, like your honest to goodness, open soul, like your heart. The funniest stuff I think comes out of me when I'm in a vulnerable position, if I'm angry, if I'm sad when I'm just feeling whatever. So I don't know. I think in many sitcoms I've cried. And how do youMichael Jamin:Get past that though? How do you get past that vulnerability thing? I mean, are you a hundred percent past it or is there any reservations?Paula Marshall:Ask that again. Sorry.Michael Jamin:Very clear saying, well, when you're vulnerable on camera or trying to be, can you go, I don't know. Is there a limit to your vulnerability, do you think on camera or are you willing to go there all the time? As much, as far as you want?Paula Marshall:I guess so most of the time it depends on how much tears you have. And I usually, if the writing is good, and that's the big if this thing that I ended up booking with Davis Guggenheim, it was with John Corbett, and I had to cry and it was maybe like a steady cam up the stairs and going, and I break down and I crumbled to my knees, and I swear to God, I did it. Maybe 17 takes. And then we come around and turn around on him and I end up crying again. And John, after we, they yelled cut, he goes, Paula, what are you doing? Why are you crying again? I go, I don't know. The words are making me cry. I'm just tapped in doing it. They wipe it away. But you got to be careful because I'm vain and you got to look like you're not crying, and I'm really crying.So I get red and my eyes get bloodshot. You look different and the snot and you got to fix the whatever, makeup. But no, but when it's great, when the writing is great, of course, usually you don't have to do it. 17 takes, it was just had a lot to do with the steady cam and whatever. But usually you do it in three takes and you nail it and it's good, and they're like, wow, that was great. Let's move on. So you don't really have to in a movie, if you nail it, you nail it and they move on.Michael Jamin:What do you do though when you're in it and you feel like you're slipping out of it?Paula Marshall:Okay, so that when I drink this, soI have at least one of those before every tape night, I've always drink a Coke. If I can't, the writing isn't talking to me. If I can't relate to it, I do that substitute thing. If I have to cry, and this is really not making me cry, the subject and the words I substitute for something else that makes me cry. I'm a freakishly emotional person. I cry a lot. I'm very sensitive. You wouldn't really think that because kind of like Danny calls me bottom line, Marshall, and I'm very tough and whatever and no nonsense. And I say it like it is, and I will always tell you if you look fat in that dress, I like to be honest, but I don't know.Michael Jamin:But is there a moment where you feel like you're okay? You're on, you're giving a speech, you're in a scene, and then you're like, oh, I'm acting now.Paula Marshall:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, every once in a while, I mean, I'll finish the scene. I don't want to stop myself. They might like it and for whatever reason, but I'll always say, can I have another one? Can I please have another one? Or Oh my gosh, I really like the second take. Just can you make a note of that, that the second take was much better. They know it's obvious when you see someone telling the truth, it's obvious which one is better, but you can't just tell the truth once and then move on because you don't know. Maybe there was a sound issue on that take. No. So it's tricky. Every once in a while you think you have it. The crappy thing is when they come around to you or they start on you and then you finally figure something out. I remember Bette Midler, we were doing the scene and they were on us first.It was a movie, I guess Danny and I did the scene together and it was bet opposite on a table. And they go to her, they turn the camera on her, and then she goes, oh, I just figured it out. We're like, no, the opposite. We did her first. Forgive me. We did her first and then they came on us. And then she goes, oh, I just figured out the scene. Can I do it again? And Carl Reiner's like, no, we got to move. No, we're out of here. So sometimes it takes a while to figure it all out, and she just thought she didn't nail it. It's Bette Midler. She nails every take all the timeMichael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.Do you have these conversations with them? Do you have conversations with actors with more experience and I don't know, are you still trying to learn from them?Paula Marshall:I just pay attention to what they're doing. I don't think I pick their brains like that, but I just watch them and I watch and I seeMichael Jamin:What are you looking for?Paula Marshall:Well, sometimes technically how they do it. I remember my first movie, Hellraiser three, I learned a lot about continuity,Which is something they don't really teach in acting class. If I'm going to play my drink up and sip it, I have to do that every single time. If I'm going to eat in the scene, I got to do it every single time, and I have to figure that out. And you have to really, if you're really going to eat, you got to really eat. Not teeny little bites, make your choice. But I learned things from different people. I remember Robert Duvall, I played his daughter in a movie and he would act and he kept going until his body knew it was over. And I remember the director had yelled cut at one point and he got really mad. He goes, I wasn't done, but he had finished talking. And he goes, I'm still acting here. It's like, I'm still walking here. But it was like, I'm still acting.I'm still doing, there's still so much more there. I observe and I see how they deal with issues and problems in their focus. ISHKA Harte guest star on that show of hers, and we auditioned a lot in the beginning. We came up at the same time and just everything was so serious to her. She really so passionate about her show and she threw away nothing. It was really kind of impressive after a hundred seasons now that she cared so much because some people after four Seasons, they're like ready to go. They're like, I got a movie down, I'm ready to go. But there's certain people like Maka who from day one till again, I think it's 25 seasons or 24 or something crazy. I remember when I worked with her and I hadn't seen her in 15 years or something, I just am like, God, how rich is she? And so instead I was like, tacky. I'm not going to say that. So again, I walk up to her and it was emotional that we hadn't seen each other in so long. I hugged her and I said, how big is your house? She goes, I can't complain.Michael Jamin:I'm like,Paula Marshall:But she's very passionate and so many actors are, and then there's some who are not and who are ready to goMichael Jamin:And who are they? Not names, but why are they there? Are they just rock stars who became actors? You don't know. It just falls into a job like that.Paula Marshall:There was one person and he just seemed really angry all the time. I don't think he was just a happy person. If you don't like doing this, I'm not sure why you're doing it. I don't know. There's just something inside you. I mean, this is the greatest thing ever to be paid to do what you love. And again, when my daughter said she wanted to be an actress, an actor, sorry, I was so happy. I was like, that's where I found joy in my life. I grew up in Rockville, Maryland, and I didn't know anybody, and I just watched the Mary Tyler Moore show, and I went, yep, that's what I want.How do I do that? I had no idea, none. And to find joy there. So when a person is coming to set and they're angry, it could be, they don't like the words actors are very particular about. If your dialogue is not great, it's really hard. It's so much easier when you have great dialogue and the scene makes sense and the relationships you buy them. It's so easy to do it. It's effortless and it's so real and it's so honest. And then when you've got this other stuff and you have to say the name of the person to remember that it's very cookie cutter network television, which you would think at this point would look at streaming and go, yeah, there's always something right over there because the quality is just beyond Well,Michael Jamin:How did you figure it out then? Okay, you're in Maryland. How did you figure out you stopped in New York first. What was that about?Paula Marshall:Did I moved to New York? I modeled in Georgetown as a local model there, doing little ads for Montgomery reward. And I didn't really want to go to college. My parents didn't make me go to college. I think I had two grand in my pocket from doing things here and there. I started doing commercials locally. And this woman by the name of Jay Sumner, who was the booker at this modeling agency called Panache, she said, we were at Champions. It was a bar called Champions. And though how I was there drinking at the bar, I don't know, I think I was 18. She said, Paula, you're so much more interesting in person than you are in a piece of paper, meaning I'm pretty, I'm good enough on paper, but you're so much more interesting in real life. And she goes, I think you should be an actress.And I'm like, okay, really? And I'm like, well, I always used to watch Mary Taylor Moore and all of that, but I'm from Maryland, how am I going to do? And she goes, I know somebody. I know someone in New York named Dian Littlefield, who's a manager, and I can set you up with a meeting. I'm like, what? So I ended up moving to New York City. Modeling was my waitressing job. I got a lot of money. It didn't take a lot of time. It was really easy. I love photography. So there was that connection that I wasn't just sitting there like an idiot with bathing suits or lingerie or junior wardrobe or whatever. So that was kind of my waitressing job to allow me to pay for rent and acting classes. And then I was like, you know what? I think I really like it. It's true. Just a piece of paper. And it's funny, I love taking pictures. I love stopping life, but there was just, I guess more to me than just the piece of paper. So I guess that's kind of how it happened.Michael Jamin:How did LA happen then?Paula Marshall:So I would audition test for a lot of things. I would fly to LA for different pilot projects. I would read in New York, and then most of the things were shooting in la, not New York at all back then. So I would fly to LA and I think it was just one of my agents said, look, Paul, if you really want to do this, you got to live in la,Michael Jamin:Right?Paula Marshall:I was like, ah, okay. So I moved to LA and yeah, and I was young and 20, I think I was 25 when I moved here, kind of old to kind of start, but I looked really young. And when you read for enough things and enough people are interested, the head of my agency said to me after a pilot, I, or I tested for something and I didn't get it. And he told me back when we didn't have computers, we had to go pick up our scripts and there would be a box outside the script, their office, after hours, he would look through and go, these are my scripts. In the middle envelopes, it says Paula Marshall on it. Anyway, I was kind of sad and I'm like, I don't know. I'm not booking anything. And he goes, but you're testing a lot. You're very close. And I'm like, what does it take? What am I lacking? What am I missing that I'm not booking the thing? He goes, I believe in you and you need to keep doing this. And then I did. I slowly would start booking things.Michael Jamin:What were you lacking? Do you know?Paula Marshall:Maybe it was the confidence, maybe I was really nervous. I remember one time, I think it was during the Flash, it was a pilot called The Flash with John Wesley ship, and Amanda pays Amanda Paynes. Anyway, ended up booking it. But I remember in the audition room, I think it was at NBC or I don't know, one of the big three, the scene, I put my hand on my knee and I was shaking so much from being nervous that I was like, oh, stop doing that. I don't want them to know. I'm nervous because they want everyone to be fearless and confident.And I get that because it takes a lot to go stand in front of a bunch of people and say stuff over and over, or stand there and be naked and do it over and over. There's got to be part of you that's kind of cocky and confident, and not that you think that you could do that over and over with someone else's words. I mean, it's kind of crazy that I do this, but I don't know what tipped me over the scale. I never gave up. And I kept doing it and trying to figure it out and asking and asking the casting directors, and they always say nice things. They never say, well, you messed this thing. No, it's just there's a magic. If I don't book something now, I don't take it personally. Someone else just had a little bit more magic that day, and they tapped into the character and the writer saw that person that they wrote down and spent so many hours writing that Blonde Girl or Carla Gino just got it better than I did. Okay. IMichael Jamin:Know. To me, one of the hardest parts of acting, aside from the acting part is the fact that you really don't, don't have agency over your, you have to wait often. You have to wait. So what do you do in that time?Paula Marshall:Well, you find hobbies. I learned very early on to save money. You live under your means. So even if you get a gig and you're the lead in a show, you're making a lot of money per week. And like me, most of the shows, they did not go more than a season. So you have to take that and live under your means, and you can't spend money and buy fancy things. I invested my money in my house, I think maybe three or four houses now. I try to invest my money and I fill my days with other things.Michael Jamin:Do you stress about it at all or no?Paula Marshall:Yeah. Yeah. I think in the beginning, early on I was very busy all the time. There wasn't a lull. And when you do have a job on, if you're a series regular on a show, you love your weekends, you love your time off. If you're working crazy hours sitcom's, not crazy hours, you know that those areMichael Jamin:Great for writers.Paula Marshall:I mean, yes, that's true, but if you're a director, Jimmy Burroughs would be like, I got a tea time at three 30. We got to get out of here. It's a dream. And maybe that's why I love the sitcom so much, because you got to to act and have a real life. When I had my daughter, I remember going, how would I be a mom and work on a single camera show? I would never see the kid. So when I was pregnant or when I read for Out of practice, I had just had my daughter a week before I went in to test for the show over at CBS. There was a script on my doorstep when I brought her up on the baby thing. And I'm like, I'm a mom and oh, right, I'm an actress and I'm 20 pounds overweight. And oh, I thought I was going to push the, I'm not going to work for a year button.That was the plan. Then I saw the script and I read it and I'm like, oh man, it's a sitcom. I'm not going to work very many hours. I'm going to work three weeks on one week off. I'm like, maybe I'll just do it. Maybe I'll just read for it and we'll see. And I really liked it. I really liked the character. And then when I got it, I was like, oh shit, I don't even have a nanny. How do I do this? So Danny went with me tape night. He was my nanny. I remember them going home because the baby, they were cool. Once we got picked up, they allowed me to have a little trailer outside for my nanny, Mariella and Maya, and I was breastfeeding at the time. She was just born. And it allowed me to do that. And I remember Henry, Henry Winkler still was like, how's Maya? And it was just a great thing. I had my baby. You couldn't ask for a better job for a mom. I was living my dream and I was having a baby when I was 40 years old.Sitcom is the greatest thing in the world, and I'm still trying to get back on one. There's just not that many of them now. It's really sad. Multicam, I've written like three of them. Speaking of writing. Yeah, go on. The writer. So I remember, I think it was when the pilot that I did with John Corbett, when I cried 17 takes in a row, when that didn't get picked up, I remember I was dropping off my daughter at elementary school and Dave Grohl, yes, that Dave Grohl sees me. And I had just found out that the pilot wasn't picked up. It's called Murder in the First, no, sorry, different thing called something different. That was another show that I did. But anyway, so Dave Girl's like Paula Marshall, what's up? You look sad. And I'm like, oh, another pilot wasn't picked up. It just sucks.And he goes, Paula, when either his studio or something, they didn't like the music or whatever, and he goes, you know what? I did put his arm around me. We're walking down that hallway. And he goes, I just did it myself. I got this set up and I just did it myself. And he goes, you should do it yourself. Why don't you write something? And I'm like, yeah, why don't I? And I'm like, well, because one, I'm not a writer, but he goes, who cares? So because of Dave Grohl, that opened the door to getting ideas out, writing something for me. One thing actually, I mean it went kind of far an idea went very far that I ended up producing with Paul Riser and Betsy Thomas wrote it. This was a little bit before, but it's an outlet for me. I'm still not great at Final Draft. I'm still like, oh, how do I get the thing and the thing and the page? I can't even figure it out half the time. So I've written a few sitcoms, mostly from my point of view, because I want the job, because I wantMichael Jamin:To. So you wrote a single camera sitcom and then you showed it to Paul, and thenPaula Marshall:What happened? The Paul and Betsy one, I met Paul's, I believe his name was Alex, but I can't really remember. I met this guy at a wedding and he was like, oh, you're really funny and blah, blah, blah. I'm a big fan. I'm like, oh, that's nice. Thank you very much. And he goes, do you have any ideas? Do you write? And I go, no, I don't write. I go, I have this idea for a show. And he goes, really? Why don't you come pitch it to me? And my partner? I'm like, great. Okay. He goes, Hollywood. I'm like, who's your partner? He goes, who's your partner? And he goes, Paul Riser. I'm like, what? Okay. So I literally got his number and I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to go meet with Paul Riser. I go meet with Paul Riser. I give him my pitch.He really liked it. And he goes, I like it. I think let's do it. Let's work together. I was like, you couldn't have given me anything that would've made me happier than the fact that Paul Riser liked an idea of mine. It's almost like when I made Diane Keaton laugh in an audition. I literally called my agents and I was like, I'm good. I could die now. So the Paul Riser thing, it was just my idea. I had a lot of say. So I got to produce, I got to make a lot of decisions. It was probably one of theMichael Jamin:Greatest. So you shot it then.Paula Marshall:So we shot it and it wasn't picked up, butMichael Jamin:You sold it to a studio.Paula Marshall:All of them wanted it. This is great. Everyone but Fox, wow.Michael Jamin:Wanted it. That's amazing.Paula Marshall:It was crazy. But you have Paul Riser, I matter your stuff, but when you have someone like a Paul Riser or someone who is respected in Hollywood and has produced before, of course people are going to give them a shot,Michael Jamin:But not necessarily. I mean, they must've really liked it. So you wrote it and you started it?Paula Marshall:I started in it. It was my idea, but I did not write it. Later on, I ended up writing things and pitching, and a lot of people like my stuff, but I really mean should go out a little more aggressively than I do. But I have one right now that we're kind of sending around me and my buddy Jeff Melnick, that he really likes this story. And it was, I won't tell you what it is,Michael Jamin:But that's not nothing. I mean, that's a big achievement, honestly,Paula Marshall:For me. Yeah, I don't write. I still am a terrible speller. I have a reading disorder. I've got this thing where reading is hard for me because the font and the text is very contrasty, so I'm a terrible speller. Thank God for spell check, because otherwise,Michael Jamin:Well, so you're working on another piece for yourself as well then? Yes. I'm impressed.Paula Marshall:I have about three scripts that I've worked on here and there, and I remember I thought, oh, well, this is when I'm going to kill it. I'm going to knock these things out. I'm What happened with Covid? We were so scared. And my daughter was home going to now, whatever, ninth grade or 10th grade. And so it became, that whole time became about helping her find joy. I always said, every day, I'm going to help her get through this. And I really pushed all my stuff back. Any good mom does let everyone eat before you eat. Maybe the way I grew up. So I took care of her and all of that stuff before I focused on me. And then she went to college this year, and you would still think I'm like, Paula, I got to finish these things, which I did. I'm back. I'm back doing it, and I like it. I really like it. There's something about the story, but no one ever taught me to write. So I'm writing from my experience, the years of reading sitcom scripts, IMichael Jamin:HavePaula Marshall:'em in my closet. I have almost every single script, especially the ones that I loved, and I go back to it and I refer back. I'm like, how did they do this? Even setting it up, I'll go back and sneak a peek.Michael Jamin:That's really smart. Was it hard for you when she left the house?Paula Marshall:Jesus. Oh, here's the thing.Michael Jamin:Yeah, make up touching upPaula Marshall:Makeup breakMichael Jamin:Last looks.Paula Marshall:I mean, because she's not in Boston,She's down the road. It feels like if something bad happened, I could be there. I don't have to get on a plane and only one direct flight. There's one school in Connecticut that she got into, and it was a great school, and there's one direct flight at 6:00 AM I'm like, this is never going to happen. And she chose, I was like, whatever you want, wherever you want to go to college, it's your decision. I mean, I'll tell you what I, but it's all up to you. And she chose and it was something that's not too far away. And it's great. I get to see her and it's worked out. It's a win.Michael Jamin:What about the emptiness of the house? I'm going to make you cry now. That's what I feel like. The house is so empty. YouPaula Marshall:Know what? And I think though, Michael, I think if she was in anywhere else, I think if I couldn't get to her, and that's a weird thing as a mom, it's about protecting your child. But yeah, I could cry when I think about certain things. Thanks, Michael. It's about protecting them. And I think that the distance, because we are close, she's still in. She's still here. I don't like cooking dinner as much. I'm sorry, Danny, because I don't really have to. The big change is just her presence, her energy, the thought about, well, what's Maya doing? Or what does she got to do? Now it's not, and one of my scripts is, well, I'll tell you one of my scripts is about what happens when your kid goes away to college? What happens to a woman?Michael Jamin:And go ahead. Can you tell me a little bit?Paula Marshall:So it started a while ago, just like my fear of who am I? What do I do? I mean, yes, I'm an actress, but then I pulled from that and I'm like, well, if I'm not an actress and I don't have a job and everything has been bombed, there's so many places to go. Okay, you've just got to, it's like reinventing yourself, which almost every mom that I know who doesn't have a job, it's very true. I was so fortunate that I could have my cake, my baby, and also work. But a lot of parents, they go to jobs and then they come home and or they don't work at all. And then it's just mom, 100%. And they're probably exhausted and happy. Some of my friends, I feel like they're like, oh, I'm so glad. Finally I get to whatever. And either they're retiring and they get to go travel, and I'm like, no, I'm an actor. I'm looking for a gig, whatever. I don't think actors ever truly retire. I think we don't do.Michael Jamin:I guess it depends on how much you love it and how much it must come on. It's got a wear on you. The downs have to be, I don't know.Paula Marshall:Well, I think probably just like a writer,You have to be able to fill your day when you're not going to be working and making money again. It's why it's smart to save your money and invest it and not buy that fricking mansion. If you got that check. Remember one time I went to the bank and I was depositing, it was before they had the picture phone deposits, a really big check. And it was the biggest check I think I've ever gotten. The first time I got that kind of money on a show and the teller, and again, I looked very young, the teller who didn't look much older than me and took the check,And he looked at the check and he looked at me and he goes, what do you do? What do you do? And I laughed. I go, I'm an actor. I go, but trust me, this thing, this isn't forever. I know it's not forever. So I have to live my life. It's not forever. Because my goal is I never want to lose my house. I always want to be able to afford things. You hear these horror stories about these, you think you got it, and then it shows canceled, and then you can't do that. I've always been kind of smart when it comes to money, but it's hard. It's really hard. WeMichael Jamin:Spoke a little about this because your daughter's interested in acting and you were, this is before we started taping, and what's your advice for her?Paula Marshall:My advice is find a way to tap in and find the truth in anything. And if you can't, then again, you substitute. If it's not connecting, you got to figure out a way to connect to it. It's about being truthful In imaginary circumstances, it's really hard to walk into a room and pretend the thing and crying. You just really have to practice going there. I remember one time, and even in my life, life situations, I will take note of them. One time I was in San Francisco drunker than I've ever been before for whatever reason. And I remember the hotel I was, I think it was during Nash Bridges, and I was like, oh, I'm so wasted. I want to remember what I look like when I'm this wasted. So I, my, I guess I did have a cell phone then. So I took my cell phone or my camera, no cell phone, and I recorded myself being drunk.And it's like that one actor, he would always, Michael, he's an English guy, Michael, I forget his name. He would be like, you can't overdo the acting, but you're trying not to be drunk. Yes. To try to make sure that the words are coming out. And so that's what I did. I literally was like, this is me talking at my, it was the craziest thing. So in life, take advantage again, back to the advice to my daughter. Live these experiences and remember them. And if you cry, if you're sensitive and emotional, fucking use it. There's plenty of people who can't cry at the drop of a hat. I can cry. You give me something to people always know Paula can cry in a scene and even if I don't connect to it again, I substitute and I find a way. I'm an emotional person and the thing I think I have trouble doing is the angry part.I'm not great at being super angry. I don't think I play a lot of those roles like I was doing, I've worked with Steven Weber on his new Chicago Med. I was going to say new show, it is like year nine, but I play his ex-wife. I think it's airing tomorrow as a matter of fact. And there was a scene where I had to come in and I'm yelling at him and I'm like, God, this is so not me. I'm not a yeller. I don't yell even in the middle of a fight. If I'm fighting, I try to get it out and then I cry because I get frustrated because I can't say, I'm not one of those bitchy women wives who are like, I'm just not. Anyway, back to the advice from my daughter, you take life's experiences and you put a little marker on them and you remember them.So when you need them, and I didn't even think I was going to have any children because I started so late and as the actress in me, I just never thought, I dunno, mom and my mom material. I don't know. I was like, you know what? I could really learn a lot as an actress by tapping into that love. I remember you'd see my friends who had kids way, way early and I'm like, God, they love these things. What did that feel like? I never knew what that was and so I took that experience and without it, I don't think I would truly ever be able to play a mom as genuinely as I am. Love because man, I love my kid and I didn't think I'd be like a great mom. I am the best mom I am and I love her and I love being a mom and all of it. So I tell my daughter to practice. Practice, learn your lines very easy and don't go in if you're not prepared. That's kind of a big one. You're not really,Michael Jamin:Just because you said mom was there, that fear the first time you decided to play mom, they say once you play mom like, oh, now she's a mom.Paula Marshall:Well, it's just an age thing, so that was never a thing for me. I'm going to play whatever I look like for sure. So I don't care. I don't care about that at all.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Paula, this has been such a great conversation, so thank you so much. You'rePaula Marshall:Welcome. I had so much fun talking with you.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, I just love talking the craft with people like you. You're a pro and you're just, I don't know, so much wisdom to share, so thank you so much. You'rePaula Marshall:Welcome.Michael Jamin:Thank you.Paula Marshall:I'm enjoying your Instagram posts.Michael Jamin:Oh, we'll talk about that, but alright, well thank you. That's it. That's you're released, but don't go anywhere now we are going to talk some more here. Alright everyone, thank you so much. What a great conversation. Paul. Should they follow you somewhere? Did they do anything or just watch you on something? What do they want 'em to do?Paula Marshall:Depends on when you get this.Michael Jamin:Venmo you the most. What do you want? Venmo? MePaula Marshall:Cash is great. I mean, my Instagram is the Paula Marshall. I guess I'm not really great at all that stuff.Michael Jamin:Are you supposed to be though? Do your agents tell you?Paula Marshall:No, agents don't. But if you have so many followers, then it used to be this thing called a TV Q, which is your TV quotes, how many people know who you are? And that's just, social media has kind of taken that over, really. So people, I think people care how many followers you have. I do notMichael Jamin:Again, but Tbq is not a thing anymore, you're saying?Paula Marshall:I don't think it is. Wow. No. I mean maybe they call it something else, but I know an actress friend of mine was early on in the Instagram thing. She's like, yeah, I got to join Instagram. Yuck. I'm like, yeah, the thing. She's like, I was told I have to have it and you got to pitch. I'm not that self-promoting and I'll say things that are inappropriate and crude and get kicked off of Twitter for it, but whatever. That's who I'm,Michael Jamin:Thank you again. Really, it was such an honor to have you on. Alright everyone, more conversations coming. Thank you so much for tuning in. Until next week, keep creating. You're an actor. Tell your friends about this. You're other actor friends. Alright, everyone, thanks so much.Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamon talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most. Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

On this week's episode, I have Writer/Showrunner Max Mutchnick from Will & Grace, The Wonder Years, and many many more. Tune in as we talk about his journey as a writer and what some of his creative goals and hopes are for the future.Show NotesMax Mutchnick on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0616083/Max Mutchnick on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maxmutchnick/?hl=enMax Mutchnick on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MaxMutchnickMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMax Mutchnick:By the way, I think Miley Cyrus is the only sitcom actor who is able to move the needle. They push you during sweeps. Can you get a Shatner? If we could get Shatner on Big Bang. I know we'll write, that's probably not a good example because it probably worked. But for the most part, shows just get what they get. They always get what they get. It doesn't matter. These co-stars and these, none of that mattered,Michael Jamin:Right?Max Mutchnick:Is it funny? And do you like the people? Do you like the people? Do you like what? They like the world of it?Michael Jamin:You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today, I have a wonderful guest that no one deserves to hear. And yet, as a gift, if you're driving your car, pull over, you're going to want to hear this guy, this man and his writing partner, they are responsible for literally one of the biggest hits in the modern era. I'm talking about Will and Grace. This is the co-creator of Will and Grace Max. Much Nick, but lemme tell you what else he's done. All right. It's not just that. I'm going to run through his profile for a second and then I promise I'll let him get a word in edgewise. One word's Dennis Miller show. He was right around the Dennis Miller Show, the Wonder Years Good advice, the single Guy Dream on co-creator of Boston Common Co-creator of Good Morning, Miami Co-creator of Twins, co-creator of Four Kings. This guy's got a lot of work done. Shit, my dad says. Co-creator, partners co-Creator clipped, co-creator, and of course Will and Grace Max, welcome to the show. And let me tell you why this is so meaningful to me to have you hereMax Mutchnick:And me too, just to get an award in.Michael Jamin:Okay? I wonder if,Max Mutchnick:And by the way, those credits were in no particular order.Michael Jamin:Well, it is the IMDB order.Max Mutchnick:It's a weird order, but I'm still thrilled to be here. So I'm going to let you keep going because I like all this.Michael Jamin:Everyone loves having smoked Blunt.Max Mutchnick:It's fantastic.Michael Jamin:Let me tell you why it's so meaningful, because one of the very first jobs I had in Hollywood, I was a PA on a show called Hearts of Fire a max, and his partner writing partner David, were, I don't know if you guys were staff writers or story editors,Max Mutchnick:I think on Hearts of Fire, we were staff writers. I think we were staff writers. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So I'd get you lunch. That's basically it. But you guys were, you guys were so kind. You always let me in. I come into your office, you'd invite me into your office, which to me felt like a big deal. And you guys were both, to me, you were the epitome of what a comedy writer is supposed to be like larger than life, charismatic, funny, ball busting, but also just, I don't know, just energetic and enthusiastic and bursting with creativity and to be around you guys threeMax Mutchnick:Seconds away from tears at all times.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Oh yeah, thatMax Mutchnick:Too. But I mean, we maybe didn't show that to you, but again, I hate to interrupt you when you're saying all this nice stuff.Michael Jamin:Well, I do remember one time, David, I was sitting with you and he's like, what have you heard? I'm like, what have I heard? What do you hear? I'm like, dude, you guys are the only people who talk to me. What have I heard? Nothing.Max Mutchnick:That's so good. What have I heard? And I was listening to you, and by the way, it gives me nothing but joy to be here, and I have to do full disclosure. So I start watching you and listening to you, and this is what happens when you get to be 40 57. I said, I'm like, I know him. I have a feeling of love for him. I do not know how we know each other. It's so funny. I couldn't remember the show that we worked on. I couldn't remember the show we worked on. And then I heard you talking about Mike and Maddie. Yes. The other day. And it was, which isn't on my IMDB page.Michael Jamin:It is. I skipped over it. I didn't want to embarrassMax Mutchnick:You. Yeah, no, I'm glad that we can talk about that too. But it all started at Hearts of Fire.I mean, it's just unbelievable. And that was such an incredibly formative time, and it's so interesting to me that you had this experience of us is mean, and by and large, that's what we are. I mean, I always look back on life and I reflect on it, and I'm always happy when I look back on the things that I've done and where I've been and where I'm going and all that stuff. But today, not so much. What do you mean? Well, it's like I'm saying, when I'm in the moment of today, a lot of times I really can get wrapped up in being depressed about the business and where things are. And I am starting to say things that like old people say, and I don't want to, because I always thought I would never do that. I would never say the business isn't like it used to be. But I'mMichael Jamin:Surprised you even feel that way. You've already accomplished so much. I don't think I would ever get to your level of success. I would've stopped long before.Max Mutchnick:I mean, that's nice. And I know that there are people who are in my position who feel like they've done it. And definitely the collision of a career and social justice, which kind of took place with Will and Grace, the idea that we did this thing and that it had a reverberation on another level should be enough. But I am still a guy with ambition and drive, and I still feel like I have more to say, and I'm not spoiled in that sense. I really don't want to be done at this age. And if anything, my ego is in a better place because I can even fantasize about the idea of being in a room that I wasn't running, which is crazy because that's in the middle of my career when it's at that really hot space. It's like, oh no, I could never be in a room that I wasn't in charge of. But that's not how I feel so much. But theMichael Jamin:Hours are so long and exhausting and you're like, sure, I'll work till two in the morning every night. Well,Max Mutchnick:I couldn't. That's the one thing I would don't feel like that is something that ever needs to be the case. I'm way into having dinner with my family, and I feel like it's after 10:00 PM it's diminishing returns. I actually think after 8:00 PM it's diminishing returns because emotionally you get so your skin starts to break out. You're eating out of styrofoam, and it's just not, it's so bad for where you are. You have to just love the fucking show you're on. Can I say bad word? YouMichael Jamin:Can say, sure. You can say show.Max Mutchnick:You have to love where you are so much to be working late or own. ButMichael Jamin:How did you keep, were the hours good on Will and Grace?Max Mutchnick:Yes. Because we've run a meritocracy and we always have, and that is the best idea will out. So I don't care if it comes from a LB like Michael Jamin or if it comes from John Acquaintance, wherever the best idea and wherever the most honest idea that's organic to the characters comes, and that's the one we're going with. And I'm very, I think one of the things you master or you have to master to be a showrunner that works well and runs a tight ship is the ability to say no quickly and without a lot of ting. So I'm going to say no, and I'm going to say it quickly, and it's going to feel like it hits you hard, and maybe it does. But in order for us to run a tight ship, that's just the way that it has to go. Famously, one of the best showrunners of all time, David Crane, I guess really, it was very democratic and everybody got to talk and pitch, and he didn't cut things off fast. I mean, sometimes there's a German there and you've got to find it and tease it out and stuff like that. But for the most part, immediately, no, that's not the way that we're going. And no, that's not the way the character.Michael Jamin:And they had long hours in that show,Max Mutchnick:Very, very long hours. They famously worked really late. And I was also listening to you the other day talk about those schools of,Michael Jamin:And that's what I was going to get to.Max Mutchnick:Yeah. And you could say that you talked about, there's the Friends school. I think there's also the Diane English strain. Did you mention that one?Michael Jamin:No, I did. I only really mentioned the one that I thought I came from, I think I came from, which was Frazier. Cheers Taxi. Right.Max Mutchnick:And I call that that's the David Lloyd's, I mean,Michael Jamin:And Chris Lloyd, yeah. Okay. What would you say your lineage would be then? And do you agree with that?Max Mutchnick:Yes, I did. I agreed with everything you said. I mean, my lineage is actually, it's a must see TV sound. It's an NBC, it comes down, but that's really the friend sound. And I come from that because my first real job was on Dream on which Martin David created. And then I came in late. David and I came in late on that show, but I also come from the Diane English School because Michael Patrick King was such a giant influence in my sound,Michael Jamin:And that was good advice or whatMax Mutchnick:Good advice. But he had come from Murphy Brown. Right, of course. So if you worked at Murphy Brown, you prayed at the altar and English. I mean, but those friends people, they just spawned so much, soMichael Jamin:Much. But you don't run the show the way they did, though.Max Mutchnick:Not at all. No, not at all. Yeah. We learned as much on shows from what not to do than from what to do. The benefit of being on shows where there, it's just, and I'm not using David Crane as an example because I've never been in a room with him, but we have been in rooms where either we weren't used or there was just endless talk that went absolutely nowhere and the decisions weren't made to just, that's good. That's it. Put it up on the board. You can get there very fast and not like there is a famous school that I don't want to talk about that it's good enough. It's good enough. It's good. Enough's not what I'm talking about. I don't do, it's good enough. But there is a world of shows that's run with that ethos.Michael Jamin:See, I thought one of the first, the advice that we got when we started running shows was I think it was Steve Levitan who said, just pick away, even if it's wrong, pick away. Yes. Or you lose the room.Max Mutchnick:Yes. I mean, it's like you can fu around forever about, oh, what you want to do with your life. I don't necessarily know that this was what I was going to do, but it happened and I went for it, and I got rewarded at a certain point. I feel like if you get rewarded in something that you're doing within six months to 12 months, stay there.Michael Jamin:Were you running a show that wasn't your own, it was your first job at, or No,Max Mutchnick:I'm I'm rare. I'm rare in that regard that I was at Emerson in college, and my dear friend was a comic named Anthony Clark. And Anthony called me and said, they're making shows now in la and there's a company that's very focused on writers who have strong relationships with standup comics. And the company was Castle Rock. And Larry David was just making Seinfeld at that time. And the guy that ran the company with Rob Reiner was a wonderful man named Glenn Paddick. And he gave us our first break, but we had to go into Warren Littlefields office as these young guys and argue for why would I ever give a show on this golden network to two guys that have never done the job before? You've never run a show.Excuse me. I was on single guy. So I mean, I had worked, but I had never run a show. The first time I ran a show and I wasn't even close to running a show. I was a co-producer. And I went in there and I said to him after I got David Cohan a white shirt with a collar like, you have no idea. The Prince of a collar and a what? The difference that it makes put on a goddamn buttoned up shirt. And we go and we sit in there and I say to Mr. Littlefield, who I owe a great deal to, if you give me the keys to the car, I promise not to scratch the car. And if I scratch the car, you can take the keys away. You can bring in whoever you want. They can oversee me, but just give me, literally give me a week, give me a show, and I already know what to do and not to do, and I'll run this thing the right way.Michael Jamin:Wait, this was before you wrote the pilot? This was just to get the chance to,Max Mutchnick:We had written the pilot and they wanted to make it. Oh, okay. And then they said to our agents, or they said to Glenn Pad, Nick, these guys have no experience. You've got to go get showrunners. And I was just so anti the idea that someone was going to creatively be open, and I asked for the meeting and I begged him, and I kind of tell that story. And the whole truth of that story is a day or two before he went to our agent and said, I want someone at that table read who runs a show. I want an experienced showrunner in case at the pilot table read, they fall apart. And God bless the writing team of Roberto, Roberto Bebe and Carl Fink, even Fink, I think. And I could be getting that wrong, and I hope someone calls us out on it. But anyway, those guys were so cool. And they sat at the table read, and we got our notes, and then they walked up to us on the stage where we were shooting the show on Radford, and they were like, you got this boys, we'll see you later. And we never saw again. Really. And then we were show running.Michael Jamin:Did you bring top heavy writers to the firstMax Mutchnick:David's sister who wasn't the superstar,Michael Jamin:Right. That she's nowMax Mutchnick:WasMichael Jamin:I'm talking about your first staff I'm talking about.Max Mutchnick:Yes, I know. Yes. Really. And I don't know who the third one was. I remember there being, it was a mini room before. It was self-imposed before it was imposed on us. And it was just this very tiny group because David and I didn't know how to ate and do all that. And we figured we would do all of the heavy lifting, which was not possible. And we eventually brought in Carrie Lizer, but we started with a very, very tiny group of writers and just crawled our way through.Michael Jamin:Wow. Yes. It's cool. Should we spend the next 59 minutes talking about the single guy, or should we continue talking aboutMax Mutchnick:Your No, no. Can't talk about that show. But it was really cool to work with Ernest Borgne, and I'll just put it to you. Yes. What is the, I'm going to ask you a trivia question.Michael Jamin:JohnnyMax Mutchnick:What?Michael Jamin:Johnny was his name?Max Mutchnick:Yes. Wasn't it? Yes. I went to high school with him, so that's not, and his dad was Johnny Silverman's father was David Cohen's rabbi in real life. Oh, wow. But I mean, we lived in an industry town. That's what it was. But no, Ernest Borg nine, in addition to having a wife that was a cosmetics had of cosmetics Dynasty, Tova nine was the name of all the lotions and potions. Earnest Hemmingway, little known Borg. What?Michael Jamin:Borgnine, not Hemmingway. Not Hemmingway.Max Mutchnick:Shit, that would be so bad. Ernest Borgne had the best collection of what? Does anybody knowMichael Jamin:Doug?Max Mutchnick:No, no, no. He had a good one though.But moving on, he had the best collection of Abraham Lincoln memorabilia because on the weekends, he used to go to Beacons moving and he would sell off the dregs of whatever was left in a truck that people didn't pick up. And one time he went and he bought a painting, and it was of Abraham Lincoln, and he takes it to wherever, Sotheby's or Heritage, whatever he did. And it turns out to be one of only two portraits ever painted of Abraham Lincoln while he was in office. Wow. That started this epic collection. We've digressed into such boring stuff. And I blame you. IMichael Jamin:Blame you. I brought up,Max Mutchnick:You're running this room. You could cut me off at any point.Michael Jamin:No, I could not. But let me ask you this, though. You've created so many shows, and obviously the writers are the same. So what is it, why was Will Grace, why that one not the other ones? Why was that one that blew up?Max Mutchnick:Well, I think I have a glitch in my casting programming. I didn't know to second guess myself in the way that I did after Will and Grace. I mean, it's a great question because it is the thing that, if anything, it could be a regret in my life. It's that I haven't made great decisions at crunch time andMichael Jamin:Wait, so you think it was casting decisions, you think, but you don't get to catch.Max Mutchnick:You put it on the page, and then it's these brilliant actors that have to operate in a medium that's not respected, but possibly the hardest form of acting. And there are very, very few people that can do it as well as the ones that we know. And Jim Burrows always says it's lightning in a bottle.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is.Max Mutchnick:So it's that, and it's less Moonves also being not great to me.Michael Jamin:Well, I mean, I was going to say, every casting decision has been approved by a million other people. It's not like you could, right?Max Mutchnick:I know. And you want to believe it at the time, and you get in there and you sell, and you do your thing. And then sometimes you don't believe in a person that's going into a cast, but Les has got a thing for that person, so they go in there. But by the way, that man gave me a lot of breaks, and he was good to me for a period in my life, but I also think he did some super fucked up things to our shows too. Partners should have stayed on the air, and he took partners off the air too quickly, and no one had done anything like that. And they should have explored a gay guy and a straight guy being best friends. That's an interesting area.Michael Jamin:What is it? But you guys mostly work in sitcom. I know you did some movie work, but is that just the form you wanted to be in? Is there any other itch you have?Max Mutchnick:No, not really. It just kept, I mean, we kept every few years when they say it's back, we want them, let's go to people that know how to make on that list. And I mean, I'm doing it again, by the way, since this strike is over, and I hope that they work.Michael Jamin:What you're taking outMax Mutchnick:Multicam Ideas couple. Yeah. Yeah. We're working on a couple of Multicam right now that I'm really excited about, but I would love to not do it anymore. I would love to not do it anymore.Michael Jamin:What do you mean you'd love to not do it? I don't understand. IMax Mutchnick:Would love to write what I think single camera comedies are, which is a beautiful, when it's done exquisitely. I think it's, if you write Fleabag, that's like the masterpiece.Michael Jamin:It was a masterpiece, but it was a play. I remember watching you go, this is a play.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, but you can't, I don't know. You can't knock it like that. It doesn't, oh,Michael Jamin:It's not a knock. I mean, it's a compliment. I mean, these long monologues, and it's just not done. ButMax Mutchnick:She still was so brilliant that she figured out, she figured something out about how to make great fuckingMichael Jamin:Episodes. Oh, listen, we're on the same page. I was a masterpiece fricking masterpiece. And what I like about it is that it does feel like a play to me. It's really, it's conversational and it's intimate and brave. It's courageous, man. Man.Max Mutchnick:I think it's the final 20 minutes of the second season. I think that it, it'd be hard pressed to find a better single camera comedy ever written. Yeah, I agree. From the moment the priest shows up at her apartment to sleep with her. And I think that goes straight to the end. I don't know. Beat for beat where I've ever seen it, where I've ever watched a better script.Michael Jamin:How do you feel when you watch something like that? What does that do to you? Because you're a professional writer with a huge, great track record. How does that make you feel?Max Mutchnick:I only have that attitude of the more, the merrier. It's only good to me if you're asking me in a coded way, am I ever jealous of somethingMichael Jamin:A little? Yeah.Max Mutchnick:I mean, yeah. Would I like to have created the bear? Sure. Yes. But I'm more proud of Chris store and impressed that I know him, and I love, and I love that that happens. I mean, I get more offended by the bad stuff. I just can't stand the bad stuff, the good stuff. I'm like, God damn, that's exciting. That got made, and somebody left that writer alone and their vision was carried through to the end.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my content, and I know you do because listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michael jamin.com and now back to What the hell is Michael Jamin talking aboutWill and Grace, you could tune in an episode, and you knew you were in for some big, big laughs every episode. And I don't know, you were inviting these friends into your home every week. That's what it felt like. You were inviting your friends over. And there's an art to that.Max Mutchnick:Yes. And there's an art to picking the best writers that money can buy, which is what Will and Grace always had. I mean, the star power in the writing room at Will and Grace was spectacular. And I mean, to a person, it had the best run of writers, but the only time it went off the rails is if the heart got taken out of a story. And if the heart wasn't there, then the thing didn't hold up. That's right. And so you have to lay a foundation in the first act and make sure that all that stuff is true and real at the beginning. And then you can go kind of wherever you want in the second act. Then you can get nuts and then resolve in a very real way. But if you don't actually start from a true place of, oh my God, I cannot believe you are sleeping with my brother, that hurts me so much. Why? Because you're mine. Whatever that story is, you want to just hit those notes that everybody understands.Michael Jamin:Now, when you rebooted Will and Grace, did you bring back the entire writing stuff?Max Mutchnick:We didn't bring back everybody, but brought back most everybody.Michael Jamin:And what's shocking about that you had this amazing writing staff and that they were available.Max Mutchnick:We had to be patient. We had to work a little bit of magic. And I also think, I mean, it's embarrassing for NBC, but David and I had out of pocket some fees.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? You wanted them that bad?Max Mutchnick:But it's worth it. It's worth it. It's like, oh, you, you're going to stop at 25 k an episode for this wildly talented person and for their integrity, and they need it to be 27 5. It's like, take it out of mine.Michael Jamin:Right.Max Mutchnick:And we had to give you the full truth on that. It was more with crew. With Crew that we did that.Michael Jamin:Did you want your old crew?Max Mutchnick:Yeah. I mean, there are people that you want, you want the show to sound the same and you want,Michael Jamin:What was it like bringing it back though, for you as a creator? ItMax Mutchnick:Was incredible, honestly. It was such an incredible thing. I mean, we brought it back thinking that Hillary Clinton was going to be president. And the twisted irony is that the game show host won the office, but it ended up really giving us stuff to write to, because if you're just preaching to the third that you have, it's like, what's fun about that? ButMichael Jamin:To me, I guess I'm interested in your characters are now much older. And now I wouldn't have thought when Will Grace ended? I'm not really thinking about where they're going to be years from now. I'm just done thinking about them.Max Mutchnick:I know, and it kind of did have a finality to it, but I mean, I've told the story, but the set was at Emerson. How was it? And it was done, and they were done with the installation, and it was getting moved back on a flatbed to la. And my husband and I were in London, and I was bereft about the way the election was going and sitting in the back of a cab, I said to him, if I had the show, I would have Karen training Rosario on a rock climbing wall. I would do a story about, you're going to go back to Mexico, but then you're going to climb back in after you go back. Right. And I just wanted that to see that visual of Shelly Morrison on a rock climbing wall and caring training her, and in response to him, those horrible policies. And Eric said to me, well, honey, why don't you just go do something about it and make it the set's where it is? All the actors are where they are, and they were amenable. Thank God, God bless them for doing that, because it didn't have to go that way. It wasMichael Jamin:Easy.Max Mutchnick:It was much easier than you would think to bring it all back together.Michael Jamin:Right. That's with the rebuilding. That's so interesting. When you guys are coming up with show ideas, I mean, are they just coming to you? Are you always coming up with ideas or is it like, okay, we got to come up with an idea?Max Mutchnick:No, I mean, I'm coming up with ideas all the time until someone pays me and then all of a suddenMichael Jamin:Nothing. Can't thinkMax Mutchnick:Of anything. Yeah. It's like, I don't know. I can't sleep. I mean, do you sleep? I don't turn. My brain doesn't shut off. And so I'm always kind of thinking about stuff. And by the way, we've written some of the things that I love the most that we've ever done. They've never seen the light of day. And I think that one of the little twisted crimes of our industry is the fact that agents and studios, if they have any sense that you've written something ago, that you wrote it back when they don't want to, it's like a loaf of bread or something like that, as opposed to a piece of art that it is still relevant. It still makes sense. These characters are vibrant and exist, but it feels like used goods even if it's never anywhere.Michael Jamin:And so you guys, your partner, you meet every day and you're coming up with ideas, or even when you're not,Max Mutchnick:I'm very good that way. I don't feel like I can stop and I don't want to stop. Dave is arguably a happier person, and he doesn't feel the same desire to beat himself to death. That's what it's, yeah. But we've had a dynamic for mean our daughters are very, very close, which Oh, really? A gift of life for both of us. But always, I mean, I say this in front of him and behind his back, our relationship has that lovely Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin, sort of one of us is in love with the other one, and one of us doesn't care. And Dave's just like, but he's my brother. So he's not like he's going anywhere. But it's just like, stop trying so fucking hard. I get a little sweaty when I don't need to.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, you've had so much success. It occurred to me. I just remember one time I was over at your place once, I don't remember where you were living, but I remember you had Enya on.Max Mutchnick:It's so crazy. So wait, I'm going to make my relationship to Enya. I'm going to bring it back to writing sitcoms because Okay. My anxiety has always been a present part of who I am and what you referred to as the fun of coming into my office. Yeah, you're right. But it's driven by a kind of anxiety and on, I guess it would've been good advice for Michael Patrick King. I was having such heavy, crazy anxiety. Anxiety to the point of passing out anxiety that I had to go every time we had a break down to my car and listen to Anya on AC cd.Michael Jamin:Is it because you're worried you're going to be fired? Is that whyMax Mutchnick:I just didn't have that? There's a, that very scary moment of existing in a writing room of what your output is. Like Jeff Astrof, by the way, such an incredible writer in a room, such a good room person. But he lives by the thing. If I don't put a joke into that script today, I can't go to bed tonight. And that drives a person. And I just was in these, so you have to get, but Michael Petra king got me a little bit more comfortable with, I listen to you sometimes and I watch you construct comedy on the fly, and I am impressed with it. And I think, what the fuck? Can't I still do that? But I tap into something different. I tap into a different thing because I think life just across the board, other than rape and cancer and Israel is pretty much, everything is funny. And I feel really good about exploring the most uncomfortable truths of my life, and that's where I get the stuff from. But I wasn't there. I wasn't there, and certainly not at the beginning. And Dave Cohan comes from such a pedigree family that it was second nature to him to just construct really clever wordplay and stuff like that. And I was really panicked about that at the beginning.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Because you know that in the room of writers, if I'm going to choose a team of writers and I have eight picks, the first eight are story people, not joke people.Max Mutchnick:And that's that generic question you ask a writer when you interview them. So what do you think you're best at story or, well, really good at story, right? They're really good at story.Michael Jamin:You're good at stories.Max Mutchnick:You can tell a fucking story.Michael Jamin:None of you'reMax Mutchnick:Good. It's crazy. It's crazy how many people can't tell a story or the joke thing of you want to say to people and you don't. It's like, okay, close your eyes. Go to the table, put that joke in the actor's mouth and tell me the response that you hear. Do you actually hear people laughing at those words? Because that's how I always do it. I'm like, and then it becomes second nature. Yeah, that sounds right. They will make ew. She'll make ew funny. That will get a laugh. That will get a laugh. But it's always shocking to me like the clunkiness sometimes that's pitched and it's like, that's not going toMichael Jamin:Work. Yeah. Yeah. How funny. How funny.Max Mutchnick:And if I'm calm and you got time, it's like you can try to get it, but you want a Michael Jamin in your room to just give it to you. Done.Michael Jamin:Oh, give it to me. Done. It's so interesting. Go starting out. I was just a joke guy. And then you won't keep your job long if that's all you understand, right?Max Mutchnick:No, you have to be able to, because you go to that run through and the entire back half of that story falls apart. So you have to be a technician to say, if you do this and you do that, the back half will, as we say, it's an F 12, it will write itself. It never does that, unfortunately. But I will tell you this, speaking of that, during all of this AI and the strike, and my writer's assistant that's been with me for a very long time, and I won't say his name because he hates that he's a writer's assistant, but he's incredible. A friend gave him a Will and Grace, an AI written Will and Grace.Michael Jamin:Oh, andMax Mutchnick:I mean, this is the upsetting part.Michael Jamin:No, don't go there. Don't say any of this. What isMax Mutchnick:It? I know. I mean, but the truth is, it's like, well, if this is what came to me, if I sent a team off, if I sent a group off and I said, Karen and Jack are going to have a garage sale, bring me back that story. I want two, I mean, I'd break the scenes with them, but two scenes of the first act, two scenes in the second act, it's AB story. Bring that back to me. It wasn't like it was so far off.Michael Jamin:Wasn't so far off. So better than staff writer.Max Mutchnick:This isMichael Jamin:Scary.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, no, I know. I mean, I don't know. It's like if it was in front of me, we could even read it, but I don't have it. I don't want to give any credit to that, but I'm going to name drop. But I told that story to Norman Lear at dinner not too long ago, and he told me that someone had done it for him too on, I think it was on all of the Family. And I believe that we agreed that it wasn't an abomination.Michael Jamin:This makes me sick a little bit.Max Mutchnick:Oh, it's sickening. Yeah, completely sickening. Because it calls 246 episodes of Will and Grace. It figures out what those people sound like. I mean, look, if I delivered, I wouldn't deliver it at a table read. It would still, it would be that thing that I was talking about. There wouldn't be laughs. It didn't have, it didn't have heart construction. Yeah, but good enough. Yeah, but it could go right. That's a callback number 56 onMichael Jamin:Callback. Good enough. I posted about James Burrows yesterday about what he said. I dunno if you saw,Max Mutchnick:Oh, I did. And we should talk about that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What's, because he basically said, and I think it was misinterpreted a little, that there are, there's only about 30 great writers to do sitcoms. And what I think he meant was 30 great showrunners or potential showrunners, not writers. ButMax Mutchnick:Yeah, I absolutely didn't agree with him. And you started to talk about it, and then always, I kind of turn you off about five minutes, but I will say this, it's like you hit on exactly what it is. The reason why we like it is because Multicam are the comfort Food of America. I mean, that is the show. You want your kid, when they come home from school, turn on an episode of friends and watch that thing, and then dinner will be ready and it goes down easy and you love it. You even can know where it's going, and it's still satisfying. But I didn't agree with Jim, and I hope that he was misquoted because I am not sure that it's over because of how much it's actually liked by Go ahead and create. Everybody loves Raymond and I dare America to not want to watch it.Michael Jamin:Well, okay, growing up, there was a show called Small Wonder. It was one of these syndicated whatever. And I would watch that. And I said to my partner recently, I was like, how come we can't get on small wonder? Where are those shows put on Small wonder? I'd rather be happy working on Small Wonder. But they don't exist.Max Mutchnick:Well, no one programs that way anymore. I still believe if someone made the commitment, I mean, they must have papered this out somewhere, but I always think, shit, if I ran a network, I would ask the higher ups. Can I please develop sitcoms from eight to 10, put them on the air, and will you give me a guarantee that I get to put them on the air for two years straight, all four of them? Because it doesn't happen like a movie. It doesn't happen. I mean, you try really hard, but it's a fluke to get anybody to get a pilot off the ground in that a scene. They don't know anybody. Right. It's the hardest thing in the world. But I believe that if Multicam, I believe that they weren't driven by star casting because star casting always fucks up a multicam. Of course, there are examples of big stars that have made shows work like Charlie and Julia even. But I mean, there's that list of names that if we weren't being recorded, I would just say it's all these fucking famous people that aren't funny. AndMichael Jamin:Wait, is it because you think they get executive producer and they give notes and they change it? They make the show what they want it to be, you mean?Max Mutchnick:Yeah. I mean, I don't give a shit about that, but that's all bad. Jim Burrows, though, won't allow that, which is a gift, though. The world is so changed that if Miley Cyrus wants to do a sitcom, by the way, I think Miley Cyrus is the only sitcom actor who is able to move the needle. They push you during sweeps. Can you get a Shatner? If we could get Shatner on Big Bang, I know we'll write, that's probably not a good example because it probably worked. But for the most part, shows just get what they get. They always get what they get. It doesn't matter. These co-stars and these, none of that matters,Michael Jamin:Right? No.Max Mutchnick:Is it funny? And do you like the people? Do you like the people? And do you like the world that they're in?Michael Jamin:That's what actually, and that is a good segue to what I wanted to talk about as well. Shit, my dad says, you guys were on the forefront. That was a Twitter popular What? ItMax Mutchnick:Was the first one.Michael Jamin:Right? The first ones. So I'm saying you were on the forefront. You were the first ones who did that. And I remembering because it was based on the Twitter feed, I remember thinking, is this what's going on now? And yes. Yes, it is.Max Mutchnick:I know. I mean, it's funny. I remember when I was a kid and all of a sudden in the music scene, there was punk rock. And I remember being a worried Jewish boy saying to my mother, ma, I think punk rock's going to ruin the world. I think punk rock's going to ruin the world. And it was like all of a sudden, Twitter, a Twitter account, a tweet for Justin Alper. Brilliant. I mean, creator Elementary with Pat Schumacher, and this was Justin's, it was his account, but at a beginning, middle to an end, when you heard it, it was just like, shit, my dad says, it's just like, well, inside that line, speaking of Hemmingway, the best story, the shortest story ever written.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What is it?Max Mutchnick:Baby Shoes for Sale, never Worn.Michael Jamin:Right? Right.Max Mutchnick:They might be out of order, but those are the words I think, and shit my dad says was like, oh my God. You know exactly what that is. That's a son with being embarrassed by a father that he loves. So it was all there. It was there. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But if, I don't know, was there ever a moment like now, sure. Oh, this guy, this person has a big Twitter feed. Yes, bring him in. Let's talk with them. Right. But was there a moment when you were doing this? Are we really basing a show on a Twitter feed? I mean, I know you saw more, but I would've been worried.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, yeah. But it was literary. I mean, I don't know. Justin was just so sharp and smart, and there were ideas immediately, so it didn't feel hacky at all. But by the way, I will say this, it was one of the handful of terrible, deadly fatal casting mistakes that I made in giving the job of the Sun to the actor that we did when the actor of the hundreds of people that we read for that part, there was only one guy who came in and he was a slam dunk, and he was the one, and he was the only one of all the 500 men that read for the part that Bill Shatner said, that's the guy. And that guy was David Rum, HoltzMichael Jamin:Rum,Max Mutchnick:David m, it was so there in the room. Yeah. I forgot it was him. He understood everything. And I brought some of my own bullshit to it, and so did everybody else. David didn't, he didn't look like we wanted it. Look, we wanted a cuter person and all kind of stuff.Michael Jamin:Pretty, it's so funny. We did a show with him years later. Crummy Sweet kid, sweet guy. Interesting.Max Mutchnick:Wow. Forgot about that. Yeah. Such a talented guy. Such talentedMichael Jamin:Guy. Yeah. Interesting.Max Mutchnick:And a brother in neurosis.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me talk about that, because you tend to put yourself into the characters you write. And how hard is that is difficult for you? Does everyone know that it's you, IMax Mutchnick:Guess? I think so. I mean, well, I only tell the stories in first person. I mean, I don't say, I have a friend who had sex with a Chauffeur for Music Express. I tell the story about what I did and how embarrassing it was and what I did and what I did to recover from it. And I got very comfortable with that. And it's made it possible to tell a lot of stories because that's what I have.Michael Jamin:But on the flip side, are you sometimes protective of the character when someone else pitches an idea and Well, I wouldn't do that. Well, it's not you. It's,Max Mutchnick:Oh my God. No. If it feels true, and it sounds true, I completely, I mean, I'm not going to go back on what I said. If your story is fantastic and it's not nuts, I mean, I want to tell that I want tell that story. Right? I mean, those are the ones that I, the ones that really like are like, oh, Jesus Christ, that's so uncomfortable. That's so uncomfortable and so awkward. And we have to do that. We have to tell that story.Michael Jamin:Did you start on your shows that you run, do you start every morning with like, Hey, what's everybody up to? Are you trying to pull stories out of people, personal storiesMax Mutchnick:We call a host chat?Michael Jamin:Is that what you called it? Yeah,Max Mutchnick:We call a host chat, because when I first started out, I knew I had a rundown of, I think Regis. Regis and who is Frank ER's wife?Michael Jamin:Kathy Lee.Max Mutchnick:Kathy Lee. Kathy Lee. And it's called Host Chat, by the way. It might've been on,Michael Jamin:Mike Madia was called that as well. Yeah. Yeah.Max Mutchnick:I mean, that's where it comes from. It doesn't come from Regis, it comes from that. And David, and I mean, it's arguably sometimes the best part of the day.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, it's funny. You guys set up Mike and Maddie, and then you bounced off that show probably in a matter of months. And then I took, I took the job that you vacated and I was thrilled. And with you was, I dunno. For me, it was like, oh my God, this is this giant opportunity. And you guys, this is your temporary gig.Max Mutchnick:Oh, well, it wasn't a temporary gig. It was a fall from Grace. I mean, I think we had already been working, something was going on in our career, either we were in between agents or something, but that was an absolute blight. I mean, it was terrible. That experience.Michael Jamin:And why, what was it For me,Max Mutchnick:We were WGA primetime,Michael Jamin:And that was not all ofMax Mutchnick:Sudden we're writing a strip bullshit show with two hosts that hate each other. And I mean, a great thing came out of it though, the first week of the run of those shows, David Cohan is in all of the sketches.Michael Jamin:Oh, I didn't know that.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, David, we wrote him into the sketches. He played kind of this dumb PA character, and we would do these cold opens that they could never make them work. They could never make work because Maddie couldn't act. And Mike was always frustrated. But Dave's in them, they're online, I believe, and they're pretty funny.Michael Jamin:Oh my God. HowMax Mutchnick:Funny. Yeah, it's incredible.Michael Jamin:And so I guess going forward, as I take up a lot of your time here, what do you see going forward with the industry? I don't know. What does it lookMax Mutchnick:Like to you? That's one thing I won't do. It's the more I realize how little I know kind of thing. I believe this. I believe that good shows always will out. They will always happen. And even in spite of the system. So I think that that can happen. But I don't know. I'll tell you, in six months, I can come back and we'll talk about whether the multicam that I have in the hopper right now, if they work and if they get on the schedule, because things just, it just doesn't happen anymore.Michael Jamin:People think, yeah, people, when you're in it, you're made well, your next job is never guaranteed.Max Mutchnick:I don't like that 50 something year old guy that doesn't work anymore. I don't want to be that. I don't that person and I can be okay. I guess reflecting, looking back on, I tried really hard and I kind of want to, this might be embarrassing, but I really would like to show myself that I have not disconnected from the popular culture that I can tap into the way people feel still. And I'm not just a guy making dad jokes. I mean, I'm not that guy anyway. My daughters, that's not their experience. So it is just a matter of can I get the system to work on my behalf?Michael Jamin:What do you tell young writers trying to break in then giveMax Mutchnick:Advice that there's always room for one more. I mean, I still feel that way, but I feel like you've got to be, if you get on a show, I think the goal is to parrot the showrunner.Yes. Make the sound that he's making. Don't make some other weird Crispin Glover sound. Make the sound that he's making, and then improve upon that act. It's like actors that you hire to do a guest spot on a show, and they kill it, and you hire them, and then they get on the floor and they give you something else. It's like, no, no, no. Do exactly the thing that we hired you for. So a writer, it's like, I read your spec script. I love it. I love your tone. I loved talking to you. And by the way, in that meeting, I'm thinking as much about what's it going to be like to do post chat with this person and do anything else? Because I don't know that I should say this, but I will because I don't stop myself. A lot of times when we meet writers, we read them after we met them,Michael Jamin:You read 'em afterMax Mutchnick:They have a thing. If they're in the system to the point that the studio and the network are saying, oh yeah, we love this person. We think this person is great. This person's just come out of NYU. We think you'll help this person. Right? You've got to meet this guy, or you've got to meet this woman, this human. I sit down with them and then it's like, okay, you are,Michael Jamin:I wouldn't trust anything they say, though. That's the thing. Why? What do you mean? Well, because you got to meet this writer, and they're like, but I don't think they know what I'm looking for in a writer. That's the thing.Max Mutchnick:But it's like both have equal power in the hiring. So it's like you meet them, do I like them? You can read a script and then all of a sudden you imbue all the stuff that, and they're just like, Ugh. They're a drip. And they're not cool. And they're not easy to talk to. I mean, by the way, mean if the script's brilliant, you're going to hire them. But well,Michael Jamin:Also, I imagine we're also intimidated by your success too. It's not easy to sit opposite you guys,Max Mutchnick:But we try really hard to pull that out of the room as fast as we can because it gets in the way. And like I said, it's like I won't really comment on our position in the world and that kind of stuff. I just can't even think about that. If someone's coming in to talk to us, I feel as much want them to. I'm still the same as my husband says, everybody has diarrhea. It's like, I want them to like me.Michael Jamin:You still sob to Enya?Max Mutchnick:Yes. That I don't do anymore. I do. I'm a little bit my spine's illustrator. I don't have one way of doing anything is really the moral of the whole.Michael Jamin:Wow, max, I'm so appreciative that you took the time. I don't know, just to talk because oh my God, you have so much wisdom to share. It's just so interesting to hear your journey, and I don't know.Max Mutchnick:It is a joy to talk to you, and I don't usually enjoy these things as much as I have that says everything about you, andMichael Jamin:It's atMax Mutchnick:Ease. Yeah. I mean, you're just easy and good and smart and everything. A lot. I mean, your commentary throughout the strike was just fantastic and on point. And you were putting yourself out there in a way. AndMichael Jamin:Ballsy is what IMax Mutchnick:Ballsy. Ballsy. Yes, that's right. I mean, one gets scared making things when you have, I guess you don't have that much to lose.Michael Jamin:That's pretty much it. That's pretty much it. Yeah.Max Mutchnick:So can you just tell me before we say goodbye? Yeah. What are you working on?Michael Jamin:Well, we're going to talk more. We're done talking. Okay.Max Mutchnick:Okay. So do you want to wrap it up? Do we sing or what do we do?Michael Jamin:Yeah. We hug virtually and we tell everyone to be their best creative versions of themselves.Max Mutchnick:That's exactly right.Michael Jamin:Encourage people. There's roomMax Mutchnick:For one more.Michael Jamin:I love that. There's room for one more. So if you're listening always. Yeah.Max Mutchnick:No matter what it is. And God damn, I wish I could sing the theme for, I mean, if you have your sound engineer, why don't you just have your sound engineer fade in the theme from the Mike and Maddie show written by Charles Luman.Michael Jamin:MicMax Mutchnick:Shine. It's a beautiful day in America.Michael Jamin:I'm not paying for that needle drop. I got my own music. HeMax Mutchnick:Doesn't need the money.Michael Jamin:I'll talk to him. Okay. All right. Thank you again, max. I really appreciate it, Janet. Yeah. Okay. And don't go anywhere. Alright everyone, we got another more great episodes. Wasn't that interesting talk? He's a great guy. Go watch him. Go watch Will and Grace again. It's ageless. Alright, thanks so much everyone, until next week.So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com /webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

got a package from Rabbit. Also, we discuss whether this livestream needs to go Multicam. (It doesn't.)

Tout l'été, je vous fais découvrir ou redécouvrir des extraits de la première saison. Le montage multi caméra est un exercice particulier que nous détaille ici Richard Poisson. Pour lui, il est important de maîtriser son outil de travail sur le bout des doigts.Retrouvez l'épisode complet par ici: #3 : Macumba, musique classique, solitude du monteur et CDI avec Richard PoissonL'intégralité de la saison 1 à retrouver sur vos plateformes préférées: https://linktr.ee/playpausecutEt pour d'autres contenus autour du montage, ma page Patreon, accessible sur abonnement: https://www.patreon.com/YasminaJaafri Bonne écoute !_______________________________insta: @playpausecut_podcast Montage et Mixage : Yasmina Jaafri @sminaeditGraphisme et Musique : Malika Jaafri @mlka_court_______________________________ Retrouvez d'autres contenus sur Patreon Hébergé par Acast. Visitez acast.com/privacy pour plus d'informations.

Writer and comedian Lorraine Degraffenreidt returns, this time to shower praise on MULTICAM, a TV genre that has been considered cringy by some. Plus, we delve into the age-old debate: FRIENDS or LIVING SINGLE? Episode Links: Lorraine's IG Joe's Patreon Mr. Owl's Website

On this week's episode, Writer/Showrunner Bill Martin (The Unicorn, The Neighborhood, 3rd Rock From The Sun, and many many more) talks about his showbiz career and starting out writing in sketch comedy then eventually transitioning over to scripted. Tune in as he also talks about his experiences working with a writing partner.SHOW NOTESBill Martin's IMDB Page - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0551979/Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPTBill Martin:When we got on board, we just got an overall deal with A, B, C. So we were assignable to this and we thought, this is insane. We'd love the commercials about anybody, but there's no way they're going to put on. So we thought it was just like, we'll help out a pilot, meet some new people, and then we'll do something else. It was shocking to us that they put it on tv.Michael Jamin:Oh, howBill Martin:Interesting. Because it just seems so unlikely, but with anything you do, you know how it is. Once you're given your assignment, you've got to find a way to take pride in it.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I got another great guest today Actually. Ordinarily I would never have a sitcom writer who's more successful than me on my show. I out of Insecurity, but I'm doing it today to prove that I'm more magnanimous than he is. And so welcome to the show, bill Martin, whose credits are fricking crazy good and he had so many great credits. I'm going to list some of the great credits and I'm also, maybe I'll throw in some not so great credits to humble you, to keep you humble.Bill Martin:There are plenty of,Michael Jamin:But you started in Living Color and I wanted to talk about that. I love that show. But then she tv, third Rock from the Sun, grounded for Life, and I'm skipping many. Okay, cavemen, the singles table. Hank How to Rock Malibu Country Soul Man, which I believe, I think we met on that and I think you guys beat us out with good reason.Bill Martin:That's what I'm really here for. Revenge.Michael Jamin:Yes. Right, right, right. Living Biblically. We'll talk about that. And the, the unicorn, the neighborhood, the unicorn, which you and your partner created and the neighborhood. Are you guys running that as well, neighborhood or no? We are. You are. Damn. What's it like to be welcome to the show and what's it like to be a working sitcom writer? What's it like working on a network TV show nowadays?Bill Martin:Yeah. Well, I mean, I will point out that it's fantastic and I know that because I've also been a non-working sitcom writer. Plenty. I mean, that's the awful thing about this life we've chosen is that every spring is the panic of, oh my God, am I retired? I just don't know it yet.Michael Jamin:What do you know? Brian Bihar? Do you know who he is?Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:He said me and he said to me that people in the business are retired seven years before they know it.Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:I hadn't heard that. I was like, oh God, is the clockBill Martin:Running? I knew that makes perfect sense though. Yeah, yeah.Michael Jamin:But the thing is not even about staffing season anymore now you don't even know when you're not working. You justBill Martin:True. True.Michael Jamin:So what is it like, how is it, honestly, haven't written on a network television show in many years we've been on cable or whatever, streaming. And how has it changed? How has Network changed? More notes, last notes.Bill Martin:That's the weird thing is it has not changed. I mean, we are preserved in Amber. The neighborhood is just the good old days. It's a big writer's room. It's run throughs, it's show nights. It's really almost unreal. When we took the job, we expected it to, COVID obviously jumbled everything up, but once the covid restricted to Lifted, it was like, oh, this is exactly the classic sitcom situation.Michael Jamin:See, one of my fears is that multi cameras will go away because there's so few people still doing it. I mean, do you feel that way?Bill Martin:Yeah, we keep thinking that they're done, but at the same time, people are still watching friends in Seinfeld and there still aren't that many single camera comedies that are that sticky with people. So I'm not sure that they're being given up on yet. I mean, there's pros and cons to them, but I think that kind of warmth that you only have when you're watching an audience show is something that people still crave.Michael Jamin:But I mean in terms of there's so few multi-camera shows being made now, then let's say in 10 or 15 years if they want to make more, who's going to know how to do it?Bill Martin:The breeding pool is, yeah, the breeding pool has shrunk to the point where we'll all be just inbred ligers. Yeah, you're right. Frankly, that's why I'm working because there's not a minor league for it anymore. Yeah, I know N B C and a BBC are trying them. They are developing them, but really right now it's Monday night on c b s and that's about it. So we are fully prepared to just turn off the lights when we leave and that'll be the end. ButMichael Jamin:Now tell me how you broke in, because I think your first creative was living single, I mean not living single, but living color.Bill Martin:Living color andMichael Jamin:Living, which, so there was a sketch show, which huge for the young people. I mean it, Jim Carrey and all these huge stars came out of that, which you couldn't have been imagined back then. It's one of the first shows on Fox. But how did that come to be? How did you get on that?Bill Martin:That was purely a situation where Keenan burned through writers so fast that they were always hiringMichael Jamin:Really.Bill Martin:And we got our first agent and this says 92, and she said, there's openings that in living color. There's always opening today in living color because Kena was demanding and he was hard to work for, but it was a great job. And so we went in and pitched, and I think it was kind of a conveyor belt of new writers coming in there all the time. And we actually managed to stick for the final two years of the show and not get fired, which is a very small club for people who've worked for Keenan, I think.Michael Jamin:And so you put together a sketch packet. How did you even know what to do? I wouldn't know what to do to get hired in a sketch show.Bill Martin:It was write a couple of sketches for existing characters and write a couple of sketches that are new ideas or commercial parodies or something likeMichael Jamin:That. And did any of those ever make it to air?Bill Martin:No, but I think because of how anal my partner Mike Schiff is what we came in with were very thoroughly thought out ideas. I think that's what must have impressed Keenan, was that we didn't come in pulling stuff out of our ass. We were prepared.Michael Jamin:It was such an amazing show. And then you went to she tv, which is interesting. That show was produced. I don't know if it's any interesting for anyone other than me and you, but it was produced by Tamara Rawitz who gave me my first Yes, sheBill Martin:And Tamara was also the producer of In Living Color, where she wentMichael Jamin:There. Oh, I guess I did know that. And she, TV was another sketch show, but it didn't last very long.Bill Martin:Yep. No, I don't even know if they aired all the episodes. It was a summer replacement show when that was still a thing, and it was produced by George Slaughter of Laughin Fame and it felt Laughin vintage even in the mid nineties. It felt a little like a good old fashioned throwback variety show.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Because she went on to produce the Mike and Maddie show, and so she hired me on that and then she jumped ship. I thought she was going to be a big break in, but alright. And then Third Rock on the Sun. I should make it clear we've never even worked together, but you're one of these people. I always felt like one of these days we're going to work together and just never happened. ButBill Martin:Yes. And we also have the Alschuler Krinsky Bridge between us. That's right. Weirdly, they're some of my oldest friends and I've never worked with them either.Michael Jamin:Oh, I didn't know thatBill Martin:Either it's inevitable or we're like the opposite ends of a magnet that can never work together.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right, right.Bill Martin:We'll find out.Michael Jamin:But also, yeah, Abramson Thompson, we worked with him for many years and we great guy. But alright, so then Third Rock from the Sun, another great show. Tell me a little about your experience on that.Bill Martin:Well, those days there were sketch writers and there were sitcom writers and we were sketch guys and we'd written lots of spec sitcoms. We couldn't get a job. We kept working on sketch shows and we had, after she tv, we actually did a House of Buggin in New York, the John Zamo.Michael Jamin:Right. He's great.Bill Martin:That was a blast. It was fun to work in New York, although our producer had to take a brown bag full of cash to some guy in Brooklyn so that we were allowed to film there. So we're kind of in Sketch jail. But Bonnie and Terry Turner, who created she TV then created Third Rock in the Sun. And because they'd come from Saturday Night Live and they'd written movies, they'd kind of done a lot of different things. They didn't have those expectations that you hire, sketch people for sketches and sitcom people for sitcom. So we had a great experience with them on ctv. So we were some of the first people they thought of for Third Rock. So they helped us break out of the sketch jail.Michael Jamin:And did it feel like that? Why does it feel like a sketch jail? It seems fun to me. IBill Martin:Don't know. I think it's just that it took such a specific skillset to just crank out, joke, joke, joke, parody, parody, parody. I think it was just, it may not have been a bad thing. I think it was just because there weren't a lot of people who'd had a track record with it that they were desperate to find you. Yeah, I don't really know. It wasn't fair though.Michael Jamin:I'mBill Martin:Never going back to sketch jail.Michael Jamin:Right. So you don't want to do that ever again. You don't want to write sketches again.Bill Martin:Well, I guess there aren't really any sketch shows left. The sketch shows now I think you should leave is the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life, but it doesn't need me.Michael Jamin:But you don't have, in other words, that craving, we've never done it. I was like, well, I wonder what that been like. ButBill Martin:Yeah, sometimes the idea for a fun parody, it's still hits you every so often and there's just no place for parity other than that. So yeah, I do find myself saying, oh, that's a good idea. I hope Saturday Night Live does thatMichael Jamin:BecauseBill Martin:That's kind of the last game in town,Michael Jamin:But it's a whole new skillset that you had to learn. I mean, what was that jump like to go into scripted narrative to television?Bill Martin:Actually, it was pretty easy just because that's what we set out to do when I met Mike in film school in New York, and we were just cheers fanatics. And so we had written seven or eight sitcom specs before we got that job at a leaving color. So it was all we wanted to do it just that Keller was a job we could get.Michael Jamin:Right.Bill Martin:Interesting.Michael Jamin:We worked with the Stein Kelner who ran Cheers a couple of years. Oh yeah. To me that was so exciting to be, I don't know, because I love Cheers. Cheers was everything. That's why I wanted to be a sit car writer. It was so exciting to be able work. By the way,Bill Martin:Our cheer spec, the plot of it was was a John Henry man versus Machine Cliff Klavin racing a fax machine. That's how long ago it was. SoMichael Jamin:One of the wordsBill Martin:That was a legit idea.Michael Jamin:So he would deliver a letter faster than a fax machine could.Bill Martin:He claimed he could beat a faxMichael Jamin:Machine. That's funny.Bill Martin:The fax machine still took 18 seconds, but it was faster than Cliff.Michael Jamin:That's pretty funny. I like that idea. Oh, well. So then tell me your career. Honestly, you've so many shows way more than we have, so, so then you just jump after Third Rock. How many seasons were you there? You were four Seasons?Bill Martin:Five.Michael Jamin:Five until the end.Bill Martin:Yeah, halfway through our fifth season we left to create Grounded for Life, but it was all at the Car Seat Warner Company, so we didn't really say goodbye. We just moved one building over.Michael Jamin:Now it's so interesting because what was creating that life? Because back then, back then you might leave a hit show to create your own show. I'm not sure you'dBill Martin:Do that to Yeah, no, I think And we didn't know better. And because it was all part of Cari Warner, the risks were low. If it had failed, we could've gone back to Third Rock. I assumeMaybe It felt like we had a net, at least we weren't jumping ship completely. But because at that point, Cy Werner had five or six shows on networks. They owned network comedy, and we thought, and we pitched the show and it sold that, oh, this is easy. You just have an idea. And then Ly Warner puts it on tv. It's great. We were batting a thousand and in very short order, we were batting a hundred and then batting 50. And we realized we had a very skewed idea about how easy the business was at that point.Michael Jamin:And how did you come up with that idea? Walk me through the whole process of,Bill Martin:Well, Mike Schiff, my partner is a bit of a jerk. He's a curmudgeon, he's a grumpy guy, and he was itching to do something different. He didn't want to just do a multicam that hit all the same notes we'd already been hitting for a while. And we went out for lunch one day with our friend Chris Kelly, who ended up writing on the show, and Chris told us a story about taking his daughter to the CAMA dome and having to wait outside the ladies room down those stairs. And it turned into a really horrible, awkward situation. And the story was just hilarious. And we came back from lunch and Mike said, why can't we make a show? That's as much fun as hearing someone tell a great story. And that's kind of the genesis of Third Rock, which was, it was a hybrid back before, the word hybrid was kind of thrown around, but it was a show where you started in the middle, something had happened and someone would say, what's going on here? How did this happen? And you'd go back and tell the story in single Cam. And so it's just a way to make stories more fun to tell, and much, much harder to produce. It was a nightmare because we'd shoot three days of single cam and then two days for the audience. So everybody you worked on, it was gratified by it, but it was hell.Michael Jamin:But did you think about that when you came up with it? Because that would've been on my mind, do I really want to produce this show?Bill Martin:At the time, we thought it was going to be a breeze.Michael Jamin:WeBill Martin:Just didn't know any better. We were young and we'd never run a single cam show before. And the problem also was directors. It was interesting. A lot of Multicam directors had no problem doing the single cam stuff, but then we had single cam directors who were absolutely gobsmacked by the Multicam, the demands, the Multicam.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's veryBill Martin:Different. It almost killed some of them. DidMichael Jamin:You spend a lot of, how did you divide up time on set? Was it one of you guys on set at all times or what?Bill Martin:Yeah, we'd always thank God we were a partnership because someone would always be on the, we had 12 hour shooting days for the single cam, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And one of us would always be down there, and usually whatever writer had gotten their name on that episode. And then upstairs we were keeping the sausage factory.Michael Jamin:And while the other person's writing the scripts or rewriting whatever, let's say, let's say you're on the set and you come back, what's your involvement with those scripts? If you are not a hundred percent on board at that point, are you, how do you handle that?Bill Martin:Yeah, you're in a partnership that's kind of, if you don't have a lot of trust in the other person, I mean, it could be a disaster. I've heard stories about shows, I don't name them, where the creator would spend the whole day on the set and then come into the writer's room at nine o'clock at night and throw everything out, and you just can't do that. And we would have lots of disagreements, but we also, we still had table reads, so we still had a chance to try things out and fix them. At that point, a lot of single cams weren't even doing table reads. The production demands were so intense that you just had to kind of go with it. But we loved having table reads, nothing like hearing it once and getting that one day to take a whack at it. And we also had hiatus weeks, unlike a lot of single cans. So we do three, but then we'd have a week to decompress and reload, and that made it a lot more doable.Michael Jamin:And how many episodes were you doing in a season? Most of the timeBill Martin:It was crazy. We got a 13 order, but then they asked for six more and then we got a full order. But then Fox canceled us in the middle of the third season. But WB picked us up and added more episodes. So we kind of had this weird staggered thing where it could be as few as 18 as many as 21. And it was crazy.Michael Jamin:I remember back, I haven't done multi-camera in a while, but we were on these multi-camera shows. That's not really true. I did one kind of recently, but towards the end of that long season, if it was like you're up to 20 episodes, you're just exhausted, man, and you're like, oh, how am I going to do another one? But we never ran one. And I think the amount of stress on a showrunner for that, that must've been something else for you guys.Bill Martin:Yeah, it was a lot. But you know what I got to say? The stress of working on a show where the cast is difficult, even if the writing is easy, is much, much more stressful than a show where the cast is great, but the writing is hard. And that's the thing is that for me, I get stressed out, but if I go to stage and the people there are good and they appreciate what you're doing, the stress is always, you can always maintain. Right. It's when you get called to the stage and it's going to be a nightmare and someone's mad, then that's when the stress boils over.Michael Jamin:Right. Because then you've got to do a giant rewrite and there's no time for it. Yeah. Yeah.Bill Martin:We've been pretty lucky on that front. And this was Donor Logan, Kevin Corrigan and Megan Price. They were just great actors and pros and we're thrilled to be there. And if something was wrong, they trusted us. And if something wasn't working, we trusted them. So despite the fact that the workload was grim, it never destroyed us.Michael Jamin:Some people don't realize that. Sometimes you'll get an actor on a show who, who's not that happy to be there, even though you're paying them and they auditioned or whatever, got an offer, they're not happy to be there. So it's odd, but okay. And then Caveman, which is based, that was based on a giant hit commercial, right?Bill Martin:It was a hit commercial and it was a hit show. It was just one of those shows that just America embraced. They loved it. And I think it went five seasons.Michael Jamin:I got to check the numbers there.Bill Martin:I can see your face going, wait, does he?Michael Jamin:I got the wrong show. I'm turning Red.Bill Martin:Oh, yeah.Michael Jamin:But that must've been hard because you guys developed that as well, right?Bill Martin:We did not, actually, that was one where the original directors and the writer of the original commercials developed it, and the studio felt they needed some experienced hands to come in and help. So we were actually brought in during the pilot after it was already mostly cast and on the way to production. So it was kind of a runaway train at that point.Michael Jamin:See, I love hearing stories when other writers were being tortured.Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:That's what I'm getting at. Yes. So is that what Yeah,Bill Martin:It was torture. And the weird thing was it wasn't, first of all, it wasn't a bad idea, it just that because it was perceived as such a cynical idea, the knives were sharpened for it. So I don't think any of us realized how ready critics would be to hate something that was based on a commercial, because that said, the creative people behind it were all fun and interesting and good. We ended up being friends with all the guys. It wasn't a bad creative situation other than it was a fool's errand. We were being sent into the Lion Stand, and once it got into production, a single cam show with a certain, the visual stylists of the show, the guys who did the commercials really wanted to be sleek and clean and neat looking and modern, like the commercials. And that was a high bar to reach. But add to that, that every single cast member had to be in makeup for four hours before they could shoot. I mean, literally by the end of the second episode, their faces were chafed and red and they were in agony, and they were upset and met. And these were good professional actors. Like Nick Kroll, wonderful, but you can only torture a man's face so many days in a row before they go, oh my God, what's happening? So it was almost reproducible.Michael Jamin:But that's interesting. You said, I think you're exactly right. There's something, it was already labeled with a cynicism of like, oh, okay, it's based on a commercial and therefore it can't be any good. But did you know that when you signed up, could you even possibly have thought about that when you got on board?Bill Martin:Well, when we got on board, we just got an overall deal with A, B, C. So we were assignable to this, and we thought, this is insane. We love the commercials budget, anybody, but there's no way they're going to put this on. Okay. So we thought it was just like, we'll help out a pilot, meet some new people, and then we'll do something else. It was shocking to us that they put it on tv.Michael Jamin:Oh, how interesting.Bill Martin:Because it just seems so unlikely, but with anything you do, you know how it is. Once you're given your assignment, you've got to find a way to take pride in it. You can't blow it off. So we dug in and the pilot had some issues, and the first episode that we ran, we kind of got into shape. It wasn't quite there. And then suddenly the third episode, I said, okay, that's funny. We figured out, and in no small part, Nick Kroll was a secret weapon, but by the time we figured out on episode three how we could make a show that we could be somewhat proud of, after the first episode aired, we were already dead. We were summarily executed, but go to YouTube and watch some of the later episodes of Caveman, which are still illegally out there. And it's actually a pretty funny show, and it's got a great cast. I'm not sure Steve McPherson was in his right mind when he picked it up.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. I mean, you're absolutely right. No matter what show you're working on, you're going to find something that you love about it. You'll take pride and you'll lean into that. But yeah, you're right, because we did an animated show and for some reason they decided to put a laugh track on the first episode. And I remember yelling, why wouldn't there be a laugh track on an animated who exactly is laughing? Are we going to see the other animated characters in the audience who's laughing and lost that fight? For sure. And we got raked over the coals justifiably. So once you had that stink on you,Bill Martin:Yeah, yeah.Michael Jamin:We fought it. You can't fight. You can't win every fight. What are you going to do?Bill Martin:I don't think you can win any fight, can you?Michael Jamin:I wouldn't know what that's like.We did a show, oh my God. We did a show that was very low budget, and we had a slow mall budget for food. And so I sent the PA to go to the Whole Foods and get me these yogurts that I like that has the fruit on the side. It was a hundred dollars, whatever, just get some yogurt. And we submitted it in, and then we got yelled at by the studio saying, why is this bill from Whole Foods? And I remember saying, well, whatever, it's a hundred dollars. Does it matter where we spend it? And they go, yeah.Bill Martin:Oh no,Michael Jamin:You're not. A Whole Foods kind of show.Bill Martin:This is a Ralph's show.Michael Jamin:This is the Vaughn's Show. Yeah, that was So, yeah, you don't even win that fight, but maybe you wouldn't morph. I don't know. You must be able to win some fights.Bill Martin:Well, it's also one of the things, I think because I'm not an aggressive person, I always start every show with, I'm so lucky to have this. How lucky I got a parking space and a computer. I get to make a TV show. And sometimes I don't realize until I'm doing something I hate, I'll go like, oh, shit, I should have this. Didn't have to be this way.Michael Jamin:SoBill Martin:I think as we've gotten older, we've gotten crunchier, and we'll be a little more blunt about things, but certainly early on it was just like, pinch me. I can't believe you guys are letting me drive the car here. It'sMichael Jamin:Great. Yeah. But that's a big jump because was the first show you ran, was it grounded for Life?Bill Martin:No, the first show we ran was actually House of Bugging because of some weird politics. The showrunners got fired and we got bumped upstairs out of nowhere, and we were in our twenties and didn't know what we were doing, but we were already in Queens and they needed someone to,Michael Jamin:You were in Queens?Bill Martin:Yeah, we were the only ones in QueensMichael Jamin:WhoBill Martin:Could possibly do this job. So when we came back to do Third Rock, we had artificially inflated titles because we'd run House of Buggin. But then during the second season of Third Rock, the Turners tapped us to take over for them. Oh,Michael Jamin:I didn't even know that. I'm sorry. I didn't know that. Was that scary for you running?Bill Martin:You know what? It wasn't because it was the happiest place on earth and curtained. I mean, I hate to be Mr. Aw Shucks show business so fun. But that cast made work such a joy that there was no way it go wrong. Had an amazing writing staff, and the actors were delightful. It felt weirdly easy to do. I mean, we were stressed because we knew that we were being handed a baby and the baby was successful and 20 million people watching the baby every week. So there was certainly some pressure on us, but at the same time, we knew we could do it. And we knew that everybody had our backs with a very nice familial situation.Michael Jamin:It really was. I mean, that show really was, it was a big show. It was one of the shows everyone talked about if you were trying to break into show business, you had a spec for that show. It was a big responsibility. It was an honor to get tapped.Bill Martin:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Everyone loved that. Yep. Then, okay, what shows should we talk about more? I don't know. What shows do you want to talk? They're all great. I dunno. Tell me some experiences that you've had. I don't want to go one by one, there's too many.Bill Martin:Yeah. Well, so far the ones you've skipped are good ones to skip. You steer running into caveman, but that's fine.Michael Jamin:I did.Bill Martin:I guess really for me, shows are divided up into the shows we ran and the shows you worked on. And typically, if you're not running a show, there are creative frustrations that you feel because you wish things were different. That said one of the most fantastic experiences of our career was working on trial and error because Jeff Astro of the showrunner and he'd worked for us. So we kind of had that, you got to listen to us a little bit, Jeff, and we helped get John Liko to agree to do it. And at that point, we'd been on a few Multicam that weren't great, and this was a real interesting single cam, fake doc with John, and he was super serialized, like a true crime series. And that was just a blast. And I'm still very proud of that season. We did not work on the second season. They sent it to Canada and shaved off half the staff and it killed Jeff Astro.Michael Jamin:Really? When you say,Bill Martin:Well, was Christian Chen, it was still a great season, but it was not as easy. It was kind of Warner Brothers was trying to cut every corner they could on it. SoMichael Jamin:When you say killed them, they overworked him and cut the staff. Yeah, yeah. People don't realize that I think be brutal. And then of course, the Unicorn, which went two seasons, and that's a big deal. That's really, when I think about it now, it's actually quite a big deal that you got your own show on a network these days when they pick up two shows a year, maybe it's nothing.Bill Martin:No, that was really threading a needle there because we had pitched it all over the place, and it's based on a true story, based on a friend of ours who went through this awful situation where he lost his wife when his kids were young. And we finally sold it c v s on the last day of selling anything. It was like October and Julie Per Worth calls the last second and said, we want to do it. We went, oh, no fucking way. So I mean, it was something that was both a passion project and just endless sadness for us. And so we started doing it and it went back and forth single multi, single, multi. We're trying to find the right guy to play the guy. And we knew, we'd always said, this is a single cam and it's going to be serialized and it should probably be on a streamer because that was when streamers seemed like the promised land, but c b s one, even though their forte was malteses. But then we met Walton Goggins who only came in because one of our producers is Peyton Reed, who's an old college friend of ours, and the guy who inspired the show and he'd worked with Walton on Antman. And so Walton trusted him and he came in for a meeting and Walton is just the greatest guy.Michael Jamin:SoBill Martin:He saw this, he found he had a personal identification with the guy, and once he jumped in, he said, I'll do it. I mean, it's going to be single, obviously, but I'm in. And David Nevins and everybody at CCBs were so thrilled that Walton Goggins wanted to do a sitcom that's like suddenly we were fast tracked and it was all the way onto television.Michael Jamin:Wow. Did you pitch it cool with the title The Unicorn? Because I was like, that's a smart title. I would think that, yeah,Bill Martin:It's funny. It did. And Mike Schiff never liked it.Michael Jamin:Oh really?Bill Martin:By the way, Mike's usually right, and I'm wrong about stuff, but I do like to Lord it over him. I assume he's going to listen to this. He didn't care for it. But it's one of those things, once it leaked out, people said, oh my God, oh my God, that's perfect. And the fact was it had to happened to coincide with a time when unicorns were everywhere. Unicorn kitty pools. And it was the unicorn moment anyway. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah. I remember hearing about it. It was like, ah, damn, I'm surprised you said it took so long to sell. Like damn it, that one sells right away. That's an idea that sells. SoBill Martin:It's interesting.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Bill Martin:We didn't make up the title. It's whatMichael Jamin:I know.Bill Martin:Guys like Grady are known as on Tinder. They check all these magical boxes for what a perfect guy should be.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. That's such a great, and then after that, the neighborhood which you jumped in, it had already been running for, no, tell me if I'm wrong.Bill Martin:Yes, it had, here's my vindictive tale of revenge. It's not vindictive at all by the way, but we had a pilot with Cedric. We had run his show, the Soul Man on TV Land for a couple of years.Great guy. We had a great time there. And when that ended, he said, let's do another show together. So we pitched out a show that it was his idea and his manager, Eric's idea, to do a show where he's a fire chief. So we pitched it and c b s bought it. We wrote it, it was a single cam, was kind of gritty because we wanted to do something that was hard to produce as usual. And at the end of the day, they didn't want to pick it up. But we were producing with Eric Kaplan, I should me, Aaron Kaplan. And Aaron quickly plucked Cedric out of our pilot and put him in the neighborhood, which was his other pilot. So we were basically just for him, a Cedric delivery system.So we weren't bitter because we knew Jim Reynolds. He's a great guy. And we were happy for everybody except that shit. And there goes our pilot. But it's funny, when we were producing the Unicorn, we were in the neighborhood's offices. It just happened to be that we were having the same line producer, pat Kinlin, who had done Third Rock with us. And Jim was in the midst of the first season of the neighborhood. And it was hard because first seasons are hard. And he was like, oh my God, this is killing me. And I jokingly said, don't worry when you get fired season three, we'll come in and take over. And it seemed hilarious at the time. And what do you know? It happens. And to Jim's credit, he did think it was funny that my smart ass remark had come full circle.Michael Jamin:And what was it like stepping into the show that wasn't yours? I mean, you've, not that you've done it before, but stillBill Martin:It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. And we came in with a whole new people. The feeling was clean slate, let's reboot this. And we had heard from Pat Kinlin the producer, you're going to love it here. It's the happiest set since Third Rock. And I was like going, yeah, yeah, yeah, nice try. But it kind of was, the cast had jelled and the crew was cool, and it was a very happy place. I mean, there had been issues, but we pretty quickly felt at home there. It was nice. And that's why we would love to stay there as long as possible.Michael Jamin:Maybe you will. I mean, well, we'll see what happens to the strike, but maybe you will. I mean, it seems like now they're giving shows a longer, tell me if I'm wrong, networks are giving shows a longer chance because it's too risky almost to not.Bill Martin:Yeah. Yeah. And I think for c b s shows built around someone that people love, said it's hard to recreate that when you have someone who's that warm and magnetic at the center of a show. You're halfway there already and the show is steadily. I mean, obviously all audiences are declining and atomizing all over the place, but it feels like the numbers have defied gravity a little.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.What's it like now? Because one of the biggest things, you've obviously staffed a million shows and you got to read specs from, you must stick through a pile of specs every season when you're doing this. What are you looking for in new writers?Bill Martin:Yeah, it's funny. For the last 10 years or so, you only read pilots because there aren't any spec shows to write anymore because there aren't any water cooler shows that everybody knows.So I mean, it used to be, and I kind of like it because someone could write a good per enthusiasm that sounded right and had the rhythms, but it might not mean they were capable of a lot of things. It just meant they had created a good version of this very specific thing. Pilots, the writer's whole personality comes out. And I think it's nice to you get a peek into how weird someone is, and we just want people who are different and weird, and you want that array of points of view to be very, you don't want eight Mike Schiffs lock, Lord, help us. And I think it's really just if someone catches you off guard with something you didn't expect to be funny. And people who just write characters, the one thing I hate more than anything, and if your spec starts with single people in an apartment talking about sex, I'm not going to read page two. It's like there's thousands of them, and it's very hard to get anything out of that.Michael Jamin:That's interesting. I've said the opposite. I've said to me, it's easier to read a speck of an existing show. I know the characters, I might know the characters, and it's easier for me to see do they get the voice. But if it's a pilot, it'sBill Martin:Easier. That's the key, Michael. It's too easy.Michael Jamin:But if it's a pilot,Bill Martin:Someone's,Michael Jamin:It's hard for me. Don't make me do more work. If I'm reading, that's the problem. If I'm reading an original pilot sometimes, okay, first I have to remember with the characters, okay, who's this character? What's their relationship? And then I'm like, okay, what's the tone here? It's hard for me to, are they trying to be big or is this just bad writing? You have to figure that out too. No, you're more of thatBill Martin:Mind. It's more work to read a pilot. It is, but I think when someone pops out of a pile, it's a bigger pop when they've created something entertaining whole cloth.Michael Jamin:Right. Well, that's true. That's true. AndBill Martin:Also for Multicam, s, jokes matter, but for single cams, you need a couple of people who write jokes. But also then it's a lot about story and character. And I think it's harder to get that from sitcom specs. It's easier to get that from something that's personal to somebody.Michael Jamin:Do you have a preference as to what you want a single or multi?Bill Martin:The artist in me wants to do single. The person who has to wake up and go to work and then get home and be happy, likes multi,Michael Jamin:But the Multicam, the hours are worse,Bill Martin:Is so great.Michael Jamin:Wait, multi. If you're doing a rewrite on a multi-camera after a network run through, you might be there at all midnight or whatever.Bill Martin:Never.Michael Jamin:Never. You always have good,Bill Martin:Well, no, by the way, yes, you're right. But on the neighborhood, I don't think we had dinner three or four times. There is, and that's not because we're so fantastic. It's because the show works. If a Multicam works, the hours are great. If a Multicam doesn't work, then you're right. If the run through is so bad that you're reworking the story. And we've been there too, and we had even Third Rock early on, we had some late nights. But in the ideal world, when a Multicam is working, it's the best job in the world, and Sedric knows what he wants. He's also approving the stories. He's approving the pitches early on. So we're not taking something to the table that he's not invested in. So I think, and if he were an ogre or had bad taste, it would be terrible. But the combination of him trusting us and us trusting him has made it a really sweet gig.Michael Jamin:So you'll pitch him, okay, I'm curious how it works. You'll start breaking a story. You won't get too far. Maybe you'll have some act breaks and then you'll bring it to Cedric. But you won't do more than that. You won't do more work than that. Right.Bill Martin:You never know when he'll say, and sometimes he does that thing too, where he'll go like, no, I don't know about that. How about that? Instead like, oh, okay, that fine. That's easy to do. He's great at having that natural story sense of what his character would do.Michael Jamin:Now, did you ever pitch him or anybody else? This is my fear. You pitch them, here's a great story idea for you. And they go, oh yeah, they love it. And then you go take it to the room and you go, I don't know how to break this.Bill Martin:Yes,Michael Jamin:I thought I know how to break it, but I don't how to break it.Bill Martin:That is what I would do if I didn't have a super anal partner. But Mike, and we know we still have those times, but once I have an idea, I'm good to go, Hey, look at this great idea. Let's go. But Mike's only like, I need to stare this for a day. So we say we give Cedric ideas early in the process, but the fact is we send them through the ship Aron 8,000 beforeMichael Jamin:TheBill Martin:Upgrade, they get out of the room.Michael Jamin:And so I'm just curious. So it's a couple of you may spend, let's say two or three days on a story idea and then bring it to him.Bill Martin:Yeah. I mean, some are easy, some are one day, some we will break five different times and still get it wrong. And the six time will do it. I mean, we work hard and Lord knows when we go back into production and we're going to have a three minute pre-production period, we're going to be fucked. But last season we had eight weeks. It was plenty of time to find our rhythm there,Michael Jamin:Right then. Okay. Then after that, you still got a picture to the studio and then the network, and they can still say no or to you saying, well, Cedric really likes this.Bill Martin:Yes, we do. And the thing is, it's not just Cedric, it's also Wendy Trilling who used to be the head of CCB ss. And she is cool, and she's smart, and she's not afraid to hurt our feelings, which I love about her Eted, her trust her. So in a weird way, by the time the network sees it, they know Wendy likes it. And if Wendy and Cedric like it, they tend to say, in fact, at a certain point, we said, can we stop doing outlines and go, we have a very detailed story document. Can we just go to script? And they'll say, okay. So that also helped us that they would trust that process.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's actually, it's a big advantage that Wendy's producer in the show because yeah, she knows what the network wants. They trust her. And so it's almost like it almost removes an obstacle in the future. You get it out of the way. Now that's interesting.Bill Martin:And also, it's something that we want to do, and Wendy has signed off on it. It's like, we don't have to be dick's. We can say, I know, but let's see it on its feet because everybody over here likes it. It usually works for us.Michael Jamin:And are they bringing audiences back now? How does it work?Bill Martin:They started to, the problem we had last year was they did the whole season before we got there, block and shoot, because they had no choice. And it frankly made everybody a little relaxed because it was very easy lifestyle. And the fact is, when you have an audience that's basically crew and extras, it's easy to not go hard for the laughs on the other side when you have Tashina Arnold and Cedric, the Entertainer, and Max and Beth, these are people who swing for the fence every time. So I honestly don't think you can tell they weren't doing it for audience because they're selling it so hard in a great way. So last season we still did block blockage shoot, and we kept saying, the audience is going to be back any second. We're about to go back to audiences. But it was working. WhatMichael Jamin:Do you do? So now that you're on strike, what is it like for you now on strike when you don't have these creative muscles to flex? What, are you craving anything? Or are you doing anything on the side, a novel or something?Bill Martin:No, I mean, I think me and Mike are revisiting things that we had to put aside and doing brain work on them, because we don't want to waste this time completely. But early on, early on, it had been a long time since we had an off season where we knew we had a job to go back to. Third Rock was like that, and Grounded was like that. But it's been years since we had a non panicky off season. And this finally, we had a pickup. This was like, ah, I'm going to go on vacation, A real vacation. And that vacation turned into the strike, but I was like going, it's a strike, but still, we're going back. It's September. And it just gradually dawned on me like, oh, this is really hurting the show. So I've kind of been in denial that I needed to worry.I mean, all signs are that when the strike is over at whatever, we are going to go back to work. And people still want the show, and Cedric's still ready to go, but it takes some of the fun out of it, obviously. And I shouldn't be complaining because we're still in such an ideal position. The last strike, we had to walk off the set on cavemen and let other people edit the show and completely divorce ourselves from that. We've been killing ourselves on and getting force majeure out of a deal. I mean, it just destroyed our career completely. This is a much less terrifying strike, even though it's plenty terrifying.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting because howBill Martin:About you? I mean, are you able to function creatively? Are youMichael Jamin:Retaining yourBill Martin:Wife?Michael Jamin:No. Well, I have definitely both, but I have a book that I'm writing on the side, so that's my little passion project that keeps me entertained writing and performing it. But in terms of, it's interesting that you still panic about that next job. And for me, it feels like, wow, I guess I stopped panicking a long time ago. I don't know why, but you're so successful and you always get that next job and don't know.Bill Martin:That's how it looks. I'm looks,Michael Jamin:I'm looking at your I M D V page. It definitely looks that way,Bill Martin:Yes. But it's a lot of times where we were falling off the building and grabbed onto the ledge with our fingernails, and we took a lot of jobs that were under our quote just to keep working. We've had our feast and famine. Certainly I M D B looks chock full of stuff, butMichael Jamin:We've taken jobs who always, I mean, plenty of jobs under our quote. I mean, it's just like, while it's that unemployment, so you take the job, yeah.Bill Martin:After you take three jobs in a row under your quote, it's no longer a quote.Michael Jamin:Well, I remember on that first one, I was like, we have a quote. We have no anonymous quotes anymore, so why is it a quote? What's going on here? But yeah, it's so interesting that you still have that feeling looking at, for me, from where I stand, wow, the grass is really green where UI guys are. So it's interesting. Well,Bill Martin:I hope I'm relaxing now. I finally got my kids out of college, so this was my first year without tuition payments.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Bill Martin:In 25.Michael Jamin:What are they going to do now? Are they going to get in Hollywood in theBill Martin:Business? Nope. Nope. None of them are interested. I mean, one of them in particular certainly should be, he's hilarious. But the thought of putting himself out there creatively in a business that has no easy way in anymore, I think he just is very happy to be a barista, not put himself out there because it's nerve wracking. And I get it.Michael Jamin:How do you see most people, the new people that you're working with, the young kids, how are they breaking in then?Bill Martin:Yeah, I don't know. That's the scary thing about this tipping point we're at right now is when I hear stories about young writers who make a year out of four mini rooms on shows that they've even heard of. I mean, the fact is that the business has become so diffuse that those clear paths, pa, writer, assistant writer's room, job, those are so few and far between now. I can't figure it out. People aren't going through these main arteries. They're going through these weird tiny capillaries to weird things.Michael Jamin:Right?Bill Martin:Pretty good analogy.Michael Jamin:I love it. You should be a doctor. But don't ask, would they show up? I mean, you have a staff and you don't ask 'em where the script has somehow got on your desk to an agent or a manager, and you're like, okay, you're hired, basically.Bill Martin:But the thing is, on the neighborhood, it's quite a few standups,And it's a few people that we know and trust from years of working with them and a couple of young people who were writer assistants who are knocking on doors. But it's funny because we had so many people in place, it wasn't like we were out beating the bushes for new voices that were coming out of nowhere. But I'm sure that's true in a lot of places. It's just that when you're at a C B S studio show that's already running, it's kind of like that old fashioned machinery that's feeding you. These writers is already there.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting because I don't know, I'm not sure how people are doing it. We gave a talk at, I think at L M U, and there's a young woman, and she just made a hit podcast, and then that got her discovered. It was like a scripted podcast. I was like, oh, tell me about that. Interesting. So do you have advice then for people listening, words,Bill Martin:Encouragement? Last night, I was giving advice to this year's crop of interns from the U N C Chapel Hill, which is where I went to college. In fact, look, there it is. And I had to apologize because I said, look, here's the traditional way in. If you want to get in the writer's room, become a pa. And I also admit that that way of getting into the business may disappear. And if you have other creative outlet, if you can do a great podcast, if you put stuff up on YouTube or you have TikTok, there's a lot of ways to express your comic voice that aren't writing sitcom specs and waiting for your turn in the writer's room as a dinosaur. I'm not really the perfect person to ask,Michael Jamin:But I think you're right. It's about put the creative energy out there, stop begging for work, start making your own opportunities, and probably good things. Good things may come your way, I guess. Right?Bill Martin:Hopefully. And I also would like to think as the strike goes on, people will periodically say, why doesn't someone do what Charlie Chaplin did? Do United Artists start a creator, talent driven production? And I do feel like when I listen to a great podcast like Valley Heat, which we were talking about before we went on, you realize there are ways to create an entire world for a show for no money. And in my mind, valley Heat, everyone should listen to this thing.Michael Jamin:Yeah, listen to it. TheyBill Martin:Should just take that, put it on camera, it's ready to go. I mean, it's a show that is fully developed that no one owns a piece of. And I guess that would be what my hope is, that if we don't like working within the system with these jerks, if you're young and have that energy, make something. Yeah. And who knows? I mean,Michael Jamin:See, we agree on that. We didn't agree on spec versus original pilots, but we agree on this.Bill Martin:That turned into a pretty ugly fight.Michael Jamin:It was contentious.Bill Martin:But that's the kind of heat that I think gets these podcasts to catch on.Michael Jamin:I think so. But also as you're learning your craft, you're getting better at it. And I don't know. I see it happening. I see people making a name for themselves. I was on the picket line, I think it was at Disney, and I ran into this guy. He was on my podcast, and he recognized me, and he was a joke writer on Kimmo. I go, how did you get that job? He goes, well, I was just tweeting Day and Jokes. I like doing it. And after about a year or two, they found me and they hired me. Good for you. But he was putting the work out. He was doing the work and getting better, and that's how he got hired. SoBill Martin:GoodMichael Jamin:For him.Bill Martin:And it's been, I guess, shit, my dad says was the original tweet becomes a show, andMichael Jamin:We all rolled eyesBill Martin:That from the caveman syndrome of cynicism about how are you tuning it Twitter into a show? But if you're funny, people will find you.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But like I said, I remember that happening, really? Is this how it works now? But they were just at the forefront and yeah, that's how it works now.Bill Martin:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Damn right. I'm always late to the trend. So Interesting. And I guess before I wrap up, what is it like for you working? People want to know, working with a writing partner, how does that dynamic work with you guys?Bill Martin:Well, there aren't a lot of writing partnerships that last this long. I mean, you guys and Al and Krinsky, there's a few. And I think for me, it's having that yin yang thing. I'm not a worrier, I'm not detail oriented. I don't tend to stress out, and Mike does, and I only really want to do half the job of running a show. Luckily, he can do the other half. So I mean, I think a lot of partnerships are based on people having the same sense of humor and just getting along, and that's great. But for me and Mike, we don't actually get along all that great, but we do agree on what's funny and we respect each other and it makes the job doable.Michael Jamin:Wait, you said you don't get along that great?Bill Martin:Well, we get along great, but I mean, one of us is a drunk pot smoking redneck from Florida who doesn't give a shit. And the other's an incredibly neurotic, buttoned up Jewish guy from the priest side. The only thing we have in common is Cheers and Albert Brooks.Michael Jamin:But you met in school, right? In film school,Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:Right.Bill Martin:Yeah. We just met because he was the only person in our writing class first year who I thought was funny. And so we just kind of found each other because we're the two guys writing comedy in that big screenwriting workshop.Michael Jamin:And you leapt into each other's arms. Yeah.Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. But it is so funny when you said about it, you only want to do half the job of a showrunner. Yeah, it's a lot of work. It's a big job. That's something my partner and I say all the time, I don't really want to make this decision. Can you make it? It's a lot of work.Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:And a lot of times we'll punt it to even a hair and makeup. Well, what do you guys think? All right. You guys seem to got a good handle on what the wardrobe should be that you do it. Yeah. SoBill Martin:Interesting. I'm always very happy to let someone else do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Bill Martin:We do take turns firing people. That's the one awful, horrible thing. We haven't done it a lot. But the last guyMichael Jamin:Are talking about writers or other people.Bill Martin:Anything. Anybody. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Because when we were on set on a single camera show, if one of us has to run onto the stage to give the actor a note or the director a note, it's always like, you do it. You do it. I don't want to, how many times am I going to go on set and tell them they're doing it wrong? Can't you tell them they're doing it wrong? I don't want to be that guy all the time. Yeah.Bill Martin:We had a great run for several years where whenever we would get a pickup, I'd be on stage and get to announce it, and every timeMichael Jamin:We Good news gotBill Martin:Our order cut, Mike would be on stage and it was hilarious. I was the hero with the, and it was killing him. It was happening over and over again, just by God smiling onMichael Jamin:Me. Oh, that's so funny. That's freaking great. We did an episode, I think it was Andrew shoot me, we're writing a script and I was adamant that this joke was going to work, and Seever it was like, I don't even get it right. And I'm like, no, this joke is great. You have no idea what you're talking about. And so we take the descrip, I guess it got to the table somehow, and at the table we hit this joke, nothing, and the room's just silent. And I just start busting out laughing. I was like, oh my God, I can't believe how wrong I was. And I'm laughing at her wrong. And then afterwards, everyone's looking at Seabert. They're like, assuming it's his joke because I'm laughing at him and now I'm laughing even more pushing him under the bus. But yeah, there's that. But yeah, there's always, I guess I feel like maybe you feel the same way. If he comes up with a line, great. That's one last line I got to come up with. You know what I'm saying? It's mine now. Anyway, so yeah,Bill Martin:For me, the great thing about writing teams is, well, you're a single writer. You turn on a draft. When a team turns in a draft, it's a third draft because you've already fought it and it just makes things better. I mean, everybody has their partners. It just may not be there, someone they write with, but when you take it to the table or you take it to the writer's room, everyone's going to get a whack at it anyway. But for me, I think it just makes that initial idea, everything has to kind of, you beat things back and forth and you find 'em out and you end up with better drafts.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I totally agree. I always see that with writing teams. Their scripts just tend to be a little tighter. Just somehow they're a little tighter. They've already fought it, fought over it. So yeah. That's interesting. Well, bill Martin, thank you so much for doing this. This is a real pleasure. Honestly, it is an honor to have you on this and talk about your experience as a showrunner and a creator of really great television and yeah, it really is an honor. Thank you.Bill Martin:This has been great for my self-esteem. I don't normally talk about myself a lot, but man, I come off great.Michael Jamin:You certainly do. I'll fix that in editing. I'll ask these questions then put a long dead pause before you answer. People are like, what's wrong with this guy? Why is he taking so long to answer? But thank you again so much. Anything you want to promote or plug other than your shows orBill Martin:Watch Season six of the Neighborhood when it comes on sometime in 2024? Yes.Michael Jamin:Hopefully that's sad. Yeah, that is sad. Well, thank you again so much. Alright, everyone, another great episode. I have to say of my podcast screenwriters, need to hear this. Keep following me and keep writing more. Good stuff coming. Thank you. Again,Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five-star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music, by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing. I.

On iOS Today, Rosemary Orchard chats with Christopher Lawley about Final Cut Pro for iPad. Christopher shows off some iPad-specific features of FCP that can be highly useful for all types of video editors. Full episode at http://twit.tv/ios667 Lawley's Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ChrisLawley Host: Rosemary Orchard Guest: Christopher Lawley You can find more about TWiT and subscribe to our podcasts at https://podcasts.twit.tv/ Sponsor: GO.ACILEARNING.COM/TWIT

On iOS Today, Rosemary Orchard chats with Christopher Lawley about Final Cut Pro for iPad. Christopher shows off some iPad-specific features of FCP that can be highly useful for all types of video editors. Full episode at http://twit.tv/ios667 Lawley's Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ChrisLawley Host: Rosemary Orchard Guest: Christopher Lawley You can find more about TWiT and subscribe to our podcasts at https://podcasts.twit.tv/ Sponsor: GO.ACILEARNING.COM/TWIT

RPKFs, Las Cultch favorite Greta Titelman returns to the pod and joins us from Scotland with Matt, who has gone through one of the most harrowing travel experiences in recent personal memory. All this as Bowen has a terrible fever? It's giving I DON'T Think So, Honey. Find out what on earth the Witches Well is and whether or not Edinburgh has amazing food options (it doesn't). Noomi Rapace, early memories of curse words and the plausibility of “And Just Like That” pave the way for emphatic discussions on Vitamin Water stepping onto the world stage, the glory of multicam, and bands you would have wanted to “be” in the aughts. It's JUST close, proud Americans this week, and you can check out Greta's critically acclaimed Edinburgh Fringe Festival show “Exquisite Lies,” playing until August 27. @gertiebird @Gertie_Bird  Tix here: https://tickets.edfringe.com/whats-on/greta-titelman-s-exquisite-lies Bonus episodes are available early for subscribers to Big Money Players Diamond on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/lasculturistasSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In May I hosted a webinar titled "How To Get People To Attend Your Industry Event" where I discussed the idea of scabbing during a writers' strike, how having people striking is shutting down productions, and how to get someone to read your script. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:That's how you do it is you really create relationships where people want to help you, but don't send anything unsolicited ever. And I was going to do a post about that as well ever, because you expose people to liability. So this is one of those things where no good deed goes undone. If you send a script out to someone unsolicited like it, it's just going to get that person in trouble. So that's why we won't do it. That's why we won't read unsolicited scripts. You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael. Hey everyone, welcome back. It's Michael Jamin. I'm here with Phil Hudson. Hey Phil.Phil Hudson:Hey, every, everybodyMichael Jamin:What up? He says, what up. Keeps it low key. So we are doing another Q and a episode. So every month Phil and I host a live webinar where we talk, we pick a topic, we dive into it real deep. The last one, this one is from May. The one we did in May had a bunch of questions and if anybody wants to go get that one, they're all the webinars. By the way, Phil, you know this, but I'm telling everyone who's listening, they're all free. They're all free. If you 10 live and we give you stuff like free stuff, download stuff that you can get if you 10 live and if you miss it, you can get a free replay 24 for 24 hours. But then if you miss that and you want to buy it, you can buy it for a slow low price on my website, michaeljamin.com. And this website, this sorry webinar was called How to Get People to Attend Your Industry Event Or Watch Your Stuff, right? Because everyone wants to entice industry types. So we give a whole hour long talk on that. And then we got a lot of Q and as, a lot of questions. And so here are the ones that I wasn't able to answer and for your enjoyment and listening pleasure. Alright, Phil, hit me.Phil Hudson:So for formatting, again, I've kind of grouped them into topics. So we'll go topic by topic. And again, if your question was asked and you don't get an answer, we probably already answered that. Yeah, there are a couple questions at times that we re-answer or readdress because everyone asked that question and people don't seem to get the answer when you tell them because you say it all the time. So yeah, that's okay. That being said, a couple things about the rider strike, just because it's topical right now, MB Stevens, w g a strike question. If the assistant loves our work and recommends it to an executive who wants to sign us, do we sign or wait until the strike is over?Michael Jamin:Oh, no one's going to, one's going to sign with you now. I really don't think anyone's going to sign. So you can sign, if they decide to sign you, you can go ahead and sign, but they're not going to solicit work for you right now.Phil Hudson:Oh, you think you're referring to agents and managers? And this question is about studio executives.Michael Jamin:Oh, studio.Phil Hudson:No. Yeah, they're saying if recommends you to an executive, so the answer is no. Right? Because that would be considered scabbing and the WGA has documentation about that. There's a whole site about it. You could go look up. But anyway, from an agent manager question, I think that's a good question. Lots of people have.Michael Jamin:Yeah, sorry, I was mis misinformed. Yeah, no, if it's a studio, you can't solicit any work for even try you.Phil Hudson:I think they said that even having a meeting with a studio executive about writing is considered an act of aggression against the WGA A and you're hurting your future industry anyway, so you wouldn't want to do that.Michael Jamin:You don't want to do that.Phil Hudson:I want to point out too, Michael, I get it. For a lot of people this feels a little unfair because they don't get any of the benefits of the W G A right now. However, the whole point of this is that they are fighting for your future rights. The way that other people fought for Michael Jamon rights and Steve Glam and Kevin ever, all the other people that we know who are writers, otherMichael Jamin:Writers that just in the 2008 strike cost me a lot of money. A lot of money and didn't, I'm not even upset about it. I don't losing obviously that money, but I always felt like it. I wouldn't have gotten any of this if it weren't for the people before me. So it's not really my money to have because it would've been zero without those people. So it's just like this, it's this honor thing that you have to do if you want to have any honor in your life. So yeah, don't shoot yourself in the foot. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Ryan McCurdy, are there riders who are striking trying to shut down current productions in protests separate from picketing outside of the major studiosMichael Jamin:And they're being very successful, they're shutting down shows everywhere. I also know, I was talking to somebody about this just yesterday on the picket line, there's like, I dunno what they call it, it's like a guild strike force or whatever. And so they work the night shift from 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM and so it's only a couple of hardcore picketers. They go up like it's three in the morning and they start picketing studios if they know if that they're going to be doing a production there. And as long as there's more two or more people carrying a picket sign, people won't break the line you, but there has to be two or more. And so the transpo drivers, they're not going to break the line. No one, anyone who works in any union or guild, they're not going to break the lump, but there has to be two or more. And so these guys I was talking to actually this friend of mines, Mike Paler who's on Taco fd, he did it one night, he was there, it was 3:00 AM he's like it was bleary. So yeah, they'll shut down. And I did it as well back in 2008. I was running around as well to different sets. As long as there's locations, as long as there's two more writers, people honor that. The picket line.Phil Hudson:Yeah. One thing that's really important to note is that it's a very unified front from basically everyone in the industry where they understand that this is a reflection of a trend in the industry for everyone. And so the transportation department is who I was thinking of in their contract. They're allowed, they're no, they cannot force their drivers to cross a picket line. And so literally transpo won't show up to your set. And if you don't have transpo, you don't have a show.Michael Jamin:These are union guys and Teamsters. Yeah, teamsters. Teamsters. Don't mess with the teamsters. That'sPhil Hudson:Right. They got good sandwiches. There's your 30 rock reference.Michael Jamin:Oh that,Phil Hudson:Yeah. Liz Lemon. She like the teamsters show up and make sandwiches and she's trying to figure out where they get their steak sandwich. It's like a whole episode. It's like a thing. Anyway, engagement. This is our next section, which I think speaks a little bit more to the topic of the webinar. And these are just the whole topic. The whole thing was about this, how to get industry people to watch your stuff, attend your event. So the meat of this is in the replay, which is available right now @michaeljamin.com slash shop. It's just a nominal fee and it's lifetime access. You on demand, you can watch as many times as you want. Yeah, Fran, yeah. Shop,Michael Jamin:It's just kind of hard to hear. Yeah. Michael jamin.com.Phil Hudson:ShopMichael Jamin:With a P.Phil Hudson:Okay. S h o P. Yep. Fran, what if you don't have an event or something to watch? What about reading your script? Meaning how would you get people to read your script?Michael Jamin:Oh, how would get someone to read your script that that's a big ask of, I was going to do a post about this. Actually, that's a huge ask and you only get to ask that once. And if it's garbage or not up to snuff or mediocre, you forget it. You just shot yourself in the foot because you only get one chance for a great first impression. And it's big. You're asking someone in the industry to spend, let's say two hours on your script, maybe spend an hour on notes, maybe another hour on a phone call, giving you those notes during which you are going to be very defensive because no one likes getting notes and it's an unpleasant experience. I was the same way. I didn't like getting notes. I want to be told my script was perfect. And I, I've done this enough where you start giving notes and people are like, they get defensive. It's like, all right, look, I'm doing you a favor. It's a huge ask. So the best way to do it is, is the best way obviously. And Phil, this the best way is to have someone owe you a favor and I've owed you, that's how we met. You were very good to me and my wife and I felt like I owed you a favor. And that's how I read yourPhil Hudson:Script. And for everyone listening, I didn't know that you were who you were. I didn't, right, because it was the right thing to do and I would've done it for anybody in that situation. And I never looked at it as, I'm going to get something from this guy. It was literally like I just had to do my job and this was the ethical thing to do. And that paid off as, call it karma. It paid off the way it should have, which is you offered to read something, I sent you something and your response was, eh, it's a bit of a Frankenstein here. And that hurt. And I didn't ask you to read anything again for three yearsMichael Jamin:Until you, until were ready. But also, as far as I was going to do a whole, I could do a whole, I dunno, maybe a webinar in the future. So I don't want to rob from that. But basically if it's talking about agents, and I've spoken about this, you got to bring more to the table than just a script. But there are some agents that will read the unsolicited scripts, they will read from new writers, the big ones, you're not going to have anyone at U T A or I C M or ca read your script, but that's okay. There are much smaller ones, but you don't pay them, don't pay them upfront. That's not what agents don't do that. They work on commission. So that's how you do it is you really create relationships where people want to help you, but don't send anything unsolicited ever. And I was going to do a post about that as well ever, because you expose people to liability. So this is one of those things where no good deeded goes undone. If you send a script out to someone unsolicited it, it's just going to get that. It's just get that person in trouble. So that's why we won't do it. That's why we won't read unsolicited scripts.Phil Hudson:But to that note, Chandra Thomas, who's in the writer's room this season, she's a strike captain, super go-getter. She was kind enough after the season to reach out to myself and Hannah, our writer's assistant, and offer to read anything we had. I've never asked anyone else on, I've never asked our showrunners, I've never asked anybody to read anything except for Mike Rap who was a peer, who became a snap writer and we trade things. But beyond that, she offered. And that's incredibly kind gesture of hers. I still haven't sent her anything though. I don't want to waste her. AndMichael Jamin:That's because you forged a relationshipPhil Hudson:With her and I don't want to waste your time, so I still haven't followed up with her, but I haven't sent her anything. I don't want to waste her time,Michael Jamin:So,Phil Hudson:Alright, awesome. Josh Hunt does the book you suggest we publish, and I think this was you saying you need to put yourself out there and you need to do more. Don't wait for people. Does the book you suggest we publish? Should it be the same story as an existing pilot, we want to sell itMichael Jamin:Could do anything you want. I mean, make a name for yourself. Make a name, you know, putting out a book and whether you indie, publish it or get it by, pick it up by a publisher. If it only sells 500 copies or whatever, that's not going to move the needle. You have to make a hit, whatever. If it becomes a bestseller, people are going to reach out to you because they want to exploit you. When you want to be exploited, and I use the word exploit, it gets your attention. Obviously I'm being a little flip, but you want to create something that people want. And so if you create whatever your script is, whatever your book is, I don't know, whatever you want it to be, as long when it becomes a bestseller because and because people want to read it, by the way, your poorly written book will probably not be a bestseller. Your well-written book might be. And so then people will come after you because you got something they want, which is basically a platform, something that's comes with a built in audience. It's all about marketing so much about Hollywood. Is it? It's a business. I didn't read Fresh 50 Shades of Gray.It became a bestseller and they made a movie out of it. And that's just how it's done. And when you go back in time, this is how it's always been done for 40, 50 years, you go, oh, I didn't realize that was that movie that I loved was based on a book. Based on a book.Phil Hudson:Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Graham Garside. If established writers such as yourself cannot read established writer scripts for legal reasons or fear of co conflict of interest sake, who do you suggest we reach out to that can read them?Michael Jamin:Well, I kind of the same thing. You forge forge relationships. That's why people, I say, do I have to move to Hollywood? Well, you don't have to do a damn thing, but this is where you're going to make relationships. I met a kid today just on the picket line and I was talking to, he was a nice kid and he was actually friend. Oh no, a student of one of my friends who teaches at local university and he goes, this student is really good. He introduced me to him because I don't know, I can't really help him at, it's, we're all on strike. But he wanted to help this kid out, make a relationship. And so that only happens by being out here and by being good. It wasn't like the kid was bad, was a bad writer, he thought this kid had potential. So that's why that came.Phil Hudson:Well, it's right, there's capital and we talk about this principle in business leadership capital. There's capital being exchanged. It's goodwill in that that's that favor you're talking about being owed, feeling like you owe someone. So your friend is not going to put you in a position to be around someone who they don't think can, will make it or can cut it. Right.Michael Jamin:ThatPhil Hudson:Makes him, because it burns your bridge, his bridge with you. And that's what people are asking people to do that. That's literally one of the other questions here, deeper down, will I have to move back to Los Angeles to be successful at screenwriting? Don't put it on here. You don't because you,Michael Jamin:Right. What's that, Phil? You don't have to do anything you want. And I was going to do a whole webinar coming up. You know what to do if you absolutely refuse to move back to Los Angeles or move to Los Angeles. Is there, what can you do? I promise, well, not promise, but I'm going to look into trying to do a webinar based on that topic. But you are tying one hand behind your back for sure. It's not saying it's impossible, but you are making it, making, this is a hard industry to break into. You're making it even harder because there are people here who are willing to sacrifice, give up, move away from their friends and families to start a new life in Los Angeles, maybe at the bottom. And they, they're hungrier. They want it long, a harder, more, and they're going to skip to the head of the line, deservedly so, because they've already sacrificed more than you have. So you don't have to do anything. And like I said, I'll, I'll try to do a webinar on that topic, what I would do if I refuse to move to la, but you're making it harder.Phil Hudson:Yeah, absolutely. Zachary Dolan, and this is shifting into craft by the way, which is alright, the art of telling story, the Art of screenwriting, Zachary Dolan, how much value do you give personal experience for inspiring great writing as a young person? Do I have to gain more of life experience to be a better or more authentic writer?Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's a really good question. That's the advantage of being older. You have more life experiences and you can kind of see things a little more clearly that you probably can't see when you're 20. I know when I was young, when I was in my twenties, early twenties, and I wanted to be a writer. Well, here, here's a really good example. I loved the Well movie Biloxi Blues by Neil Simon. And then when I was in college, they were staging it. So I auditioned for it and I got one of the leads, one of the small leads. And because I loved that play and that movie, and I remember thinking at the time, man, because it was loosely based on Neil Simon's life, and I remember thinking, ah man, Neil Simon's so lucky that he was in the army and that he had an insane drill sergeant.Then he got a movie and a play out of it how he's so lucky. And I was like, if only I had been in the army and been abused like that as I got older and I wrote this collection, my collection of personal essays, I have stories just like that. I didn't in the army, but I have interesting stories that I've just because I've lived life and I know fortunately I have the talent and the craft now to be able to turn that into an interesting story because it's not just typing things up. So it's definitely, that's an advantage to being older. When you're young, it's easier to you, it might be easier to break in hungrier. You can live off less money, you don't have a family, maybe you might be willing to sleep on the floor more. So it's struggling is easier I think when you're younger. So there's that middle age, what is it, between 20 and 50? What is it? Is it 30? We don't know. There comes a point where hopefully you'll have enough experience to put into your work and until you do, it's really important to learn the craft. Might as well, might as well use that time to write how to write.Phil Hudson:I'll add that to as well and say it's a level of life experience, but then there's also a level of emotional vulnerability. I had a lot of life experience that most people don't want to have. Very early on in life, I could not emotionally process that information until I was in my thirties. I know a lot of people who have a lot of life experience young and a lot of emotional vulnerability young, and they are the people who are doing amazing things at a young age. I mean, not that your daughter has gone through a ton of stuff, but you speak often about one of your daughters having something to say. Yeah, I had something to say, I just didn't know how to say it. Despite having a phone to talk through, which is the form of screenwriting,Michael Jamin:Right? Yeah. See, that's the thing, you're right, Phil, you need two things. You have to have something to say and you have to know how to say it to be a good writer. And you had plenty to say you didn't know how to say it, you know, had a difficult child, tough childhood, and now you can tap into it. I didn't have anything to say and I didn't know how to say it when I was 20. I have neither myPhil Hudson:Daughter who's 20. That should make you all very happy by the way, everyone listening, saying you can make a career even if you can learn those things,Michael Jamin:You can learn those things. Yeah. My daughter who's in college I think is amazing because she has a very high emotional IQ and she has something to say and I'm teaching her how to say it and she's learning really fast. She's really good. So everyone's got their own path.Phil Hudson:But Michael isn't that nepotism,Michael Jamin:Isn't that right? But if your father was a mechanic or worked on cars, then you probably would learn how to work on cars just by being around them all the time.Phil Hudson:I was rarely have an opportunity to sit down on TikTok and scroll through things, but my wife lives on there and so she'll send me things and I randomly one day stumbled upon this kid. He's 20 years old and he's a stone mason in Britain and he restores cathedrals. And I'm watching this 20 year old with a chisel do things that blows my freaking mind. And I'm like, it is so fascinating to watch this kid do this thing that's basically a dead craft because machines should be able to do all these things and he does it as an artisan and he's 20 years old andMichael Jamin:There's probably four people in the world who can do it.Phil Hudson:Oh, that's beautiful about it. Like how did you learn this? And then he shows a photo of his dad and he's sitting beside his dad as a kid and his dad's doing that job and he's chiseling away practicing at eight years old. He learned from his parents the same way we all did for thousands of years.Michael Jamin:Right. Learned from your parents. SoPhil Hudson:I asked that question facetiously. I know the answer is not nepotism. It is taking advantage of the opportunities in front of everyone, and there has never been a better time to get an advantage in anything you want to do than right now because of how accessible the internet has made people like you. Yeah. You are teaching people how to do that. You taught your daughter.Michael Jamin:Yeah, exactly. I don't know, she, it's thePhil Hudson:Same stuff. It's not special. Right?Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. Same stuff.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. Similar to that Adam Biard talking about worldviews, is there a line where writers should shy away from content because they didn't live it?Michael Jamin:Is there a line if they shy? I mean obviously you're not, it's hard for you to write a story, an authentic story about some in experience. I can't write a story about growing up in the inner city. So if I were to write a story like that, I would certainly want a co-writer or someone who lived that experience so that it could be authentic. But that doesn't mean they say write what, so if, whatever it helps, it helps to be able to write what it feels more authentic.Phil Hudson:Yeah. There's a writer, a New York Times bestselling writer that I was listening to and in an introduction in his book, he said, I'm not the guy who interviewed this guy who did this thing. I'm the guy who remembers what it was like to do it and that's why my books are more authentic. I was like, oh, that's deep. And that's not to say, going back to what we were talking about, emotional intelligence and emotional iq, a lot of people with a lot of empathy who can channel a lot of those things, but never going to be authentic as someone who has the capability to say something and experience.Michael Jamin:It's like when we audition for actors who come in for parts, a lot of actors have a wide range. Let's say they have a wide range. Let's say you're auditioning for school bully or whatever, and a bunch of actors come in and they, they're convincing, but then one kid comes in who's a dick? You could just tell this kid's a dick. Could they just exude it? And you go, you got the part because they don't have to pretend you. They got that vibe. And I, we've cast people like that all the time who are so close to the part who basically are the part, they don't need to act. They are the part. And soPhil Hudson:You told me about one of those people, you told me about one of those people and I laughed because like I imagine that person being that exactly that because they just live. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So it's the same thing for writing. It just, it's easier if you are that part.Phil Hudson:I was listening to an interview with Chris Pratt and he said that his big hit was on Everwood and he read the role and he didn't want to go do it. And so he is like, you know what? There's this thing I've always wanted to do, which is just go in and pretend I was the person and not put on the scene, but just be the person. And it's like the school bully. And so he's like, I walked into the audition, I was like, alright, so here's the thing. Obviously I am the star of this show and this kid is a punk and he wants to be with my sister, and that's messed up and my job is to make sure he knows he can't come into my world and mess this up. And they're like, and then he walked out all egotistical, and then he said when he left, he turned to the door and listened. And they're like, that's our guy, right? Because obviously he's not the main character, he's the dick in the show messing with the main character, but that, and you say this all the time, the bad guy is the hero of the story in his mind. He's the hero and he did it, and that's how he got his break doing exactly what you said.Michael Jamin:Right, right. Interesting.Phil Hudson:Cool. Awesome. So next up we've got Linda Gakko. Is there a specific format for scripts? And I thought that would be something you haven't talked about in a while.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, there's a format. Depends on what you're writing. So the format is going to be different for a half hour multi-camera sitcom for a half hour live action single camera sitcom or an animated, they all have slightly different formats. There's a different format for slightly different format from a movie. But to be honest, if you mess up, you're not going to get hired. If the margins are perfect, the story has to be good or great. So you can Google all those formats and you can go on my website and even download some sample formats@michaeljamin.com. You could download some sample scripts and a couple different formats just so you get the margins just so it looks better. But to be, but honestly, if you get the margins slightly wrong, it's not a big deal. I, I've written professional scripts, turned them in, and to have someone at the studio say, we don't like your margins, I, I'll change the margins. Why do I care? I'll change the margins. But the story works. The story is the most important part. You can't fake that part.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And software does that for you now. Yeah. You don't have to have a word to template that you handcrafted with the margins like you did in 92.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. APhil Hudson:Awesome Joshua Drew, Joshua DeBerry, excuse me, Joshua. When developing characters for shows or movies, are certain actors kept in mind during the writing process or are they picked after the characters are developed?Michael Jamin:It, it depends what you want. I mean, my partner and I generally, no, pretty much always write with an actor in mind for each part. And it could be an A-list star, it could be someone we're never going to get for the role, but we write with them in mind just to get their voice. It helps just to imagine, oh no, that's not how that actor wouldn't play that well or, oh, that they do snarky. So I can hear the voice. So it definitely helps, but I don't need to, sometimes you'll read a script and they'll say, think Arnold Schwarzenegger for the whatever role. Okay, okay, sure. I tend not to do that, but some people do.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. I tend to do that occasionally. David Booker, how soon in the script or novel do you need to identify the obstacle and goal or do obstacle in goal to find the protagonist? It need to be defined upfront.Michael Jamin:The sooner you, the sooner the better. The sooner the or the, and I have a free lesson. If anybody wants to download this, go to michael jamin.com/free where I explain this a little better in more detail. But the sooner you set that up, establish the sooner the audience is able to identify the hero and the obstacle and the goal, the better before any time until then, the you're, you're literally boring people. You're waiting for them to do something else. So the sooner, the better that a common note we'll get from any studio executive is can you start the story, the story sooner, and then you'll get that on page three is pretty fast. Yeah, but can you do it on page two? Sure. And I've written stories in my book and Oh, I was going to talk about that. I'm glad we're doing that. I'm making note where the story starts fast, really fast. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that question. Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you wantMe to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jammin.com/watchlist.Phil Hudson:Maria Perez, how do you trace a map? This is, I think is a translation. So how do you trace a map to a great story that has multiple layers? How do you outline a story that has multiple layers? Is I think theMichael Jamin:Most important thing you need to do is get the story, tell your compelling story that's figure that out. Figure out how to break the story. Once that's done and your story is rock solid and you can, you know how to hang that thread all the way through, then you can go back and add in the layers, the little themes that maybe people may pick up may not pick up. Then you can go back and say, oh, you know what? He should be watching the clipper game because it feels like a game. And so that's later. If you do it first, you probably will fall in love with it and then you'll bend the story to make that work. And it shouldn't be. The story always comes first. Always talk to anybody. The story comes first.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's a solid note. When I was in film school in Santa Fe, I was, one night I was driving on a coyote, walked through the middle of the street at night and I was like, oh, that's a cool moment. Let me put that in a script. And then later when I redid another draft on that script, it became a vulture because it was more on theme to what I was writing about with predatory people. So to your note, it's just rewriting andMichael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Cool. Next section is being a pro. Yeah, Yankee. Okay. What in your mind is a good balance of honing your craft at a higher level? Would you focus more on working with others voices, more solo work or like 40, 60 split between the two?Michael Jamin:Well, when, if you're going to work in television, and most screenwriters, I think start should start in television, you'll learn more about story structure on a TV show than you will trying to sell a movie on your own. So I always recommend starting TV first. And when you start in tv, you don't need to have a voice. You need to capture the voice of whatever show you're on. So it's a little harder now because it's a little harder. Now, new writers are also expected to have their own voice, which I feel is very unfair. So I do, I guess I would, maybe I'd make a case for doing both. I would say work on stuff, original stuff of your own that has a voice, and then also try to write sample material for shows that already exist. Or even if you want to do a movie, a movie that feels the tone of some other movie, so that you can develop two skill sets. One is being this mimic and one is having an original voice. Because when I'm, I'm working on a TV show, I don't have to have an original voice ever. I'm capturing someone else's voice.Phil Hudson:The terminology gets a little confusing here for people. So in features, a spec script is a script that you're writing on speculation that you can sell it. And that typically means you get paid more to do it. You assume the risk, whereas an assignment is something a studio gives you, and you write that. But in the TV world, a spec script is writing a sample of an existing show,Michael Jamin:But you're not going to try to sell. It's just a writing sample.Phil Hudson:And going back to the second thing I ever had you read, it was a spec script of Mr. Robot that I wrote for a TV writing class I had, and your note feedback was different. I can tell you're a competent writer, you captured their voices, these things, but it's good, not great, and you have to be great. And then I was like, ah, crap. And then I took three more years to send you something else, right? But it was a good exercise for me to say, can I do the job of writingMichael Jamin:A show? But along the way, you're al you were always writing, always working, and get working to get better. And you saw improvement in yourself, like others you didn't even have to ask to see. You saw it in yourself, right? The more you wrote, the more better you gotPhil Hudson:For sure. Yeah. And I think there are a couple things I've picked up from you that we've talked about on the podcast and we definitely talk about on the webinar. I wish I would've caught earlier. The big one for me was when I was going to send you something and you're like, do me a favor and print it out and then send it to me so I don't have to print it out. And I was like, huh, okay. And so then my rewrites, the process that really changed this for me was this. I print out my script, I take a red pen, I just sit down in a chair and I read it, and I do no editing on the computer because for years I would just beat up the same script and polish the same first act and never really get anywhere. And now I take the lessons from your course and I'll whiteboard, what are my three acts, what are the structure points that need to be there? And then I write the page count there just to give me an idea of how balanced the script is. And that all comes from the course, but the printing things out thing really did it for me. Yeah. I stopped polishing the turds, andMichael Jamin:That really helps to look at a hard copy. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. So yeah, to answer your question, yes, I was learning. But those things, for anyone listening, that's just learn that now and save yourself a couple years of pain sitting in front of a computer. Great. Rich Scott, any thoughts on a daily goal for your writing? What is a successful day of writing for you?Michael Jamin:Well, for anybody, it depends what your schedule is. If you can write 10 or 15 minutes a day, if you're super busy and you can do 15 minutes, great. That's a successful day. It just depends what your schedule looks like. If you're a weekend and you only have nothing to do and you only write 15 minutes, that's not successful. If you could have put in more hours. But again, to me, I don't measure success by page count because I'll often put out pages which are unusable, but what it does to me is hopefully gets me closer to what is usable. And so to me, a successful day is, it can even be when I'm driving in a car and I'm working on a story problem, just one problem, not working on the whole story. I'm just thinking, well, how do I make this entrance work for this character? How do I give them a good ENT entrance? Or what is the story really about? Well, I'll focus on one problem, I'll turn the radio off, and if I can find the answer to one problem during a half hour commute or whatever it is that's successful, I make a note. And now I go home and I can write it later. You can get a lot done. You can get a lot done in a half hour car ride if you just focus on one problem.Phil Hudson:That was the other big piece of advice you gave me. So funny how that's lined up. So as a pa, I would spend so much time driving around LA and sitting in traffic, and I'd listen to podcasts and stuff, and you were like, you asked me, do you listen to podcasts in the car? I was like, yeah. And you're like, stop.Michael Jamin:JustPhil Hudson:Start working on yourself. So I would turn on voice memos and I would just talk out loud to myself to solve my problems and I'd get home and oftentimes I didn't even need to reference it, but I had it so I didn't lose anything, and it was really, really helpful. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Turn off the radio.Phil Hudson:A lot of people in the webinar also commented that they loved that piece of advice you gave. You had given it earlier, and a lot of people said it's really turned things around for them, which is turning the turning stuff off in your car and focusing on even just 15 minutes a day of just working on a store problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just nuggets of gold being dropped by Michael Jamin here.Michael Jamin:Oh,Phil Hudson:Don't pick your mic up and drop it. We still got a podcast.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we got more to talk about.Phil Hudson:All right. David Kepner, excuse me. Super speed. 2, 3, 7, 8. Do you as a working writer still find time to make what you consider art? Or do you get enough joy and fulfillment out of the business side, the stuff that makes money?Michael Jamin:No. I get more joy and pleasure from my side project. I'll plug it now. A paper orchestra, which is just my passion project, which is a collection of personal essays, which hopefully will be available soon for purchase for all of you. But to me, I get more pleasure out of that when I write for a studio, I'm getting paid and I have to give them what they want, and that's fair. It's a fair trade. And sometimes I'm writing stuff I'm not crazy about. That's okay, I got to pay the bills totally fine with me. But when I'm writing this on the side, this is, and I'm not sure if I struggle with what art is. We've had this conversation, what is art? But to me, this is closer to art than what I did when I do as a sitcom writer, just because I think it's coming from a more truthful, emotional place, and I struggle with what art is. So I think maybe this is closer to, I think this is maybe art. I know it's difficult to do for me to do, but I get a lot of, and I don't get paid for, or I haven't gotten paid for this yet, at least. So it's not about the money.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. David Kepner, what's the difference between writers and script doctors?Michael Jamin:Well, there's really not such thing as a script doctor. So every writer, I mean, anyone who's ever doctored a script, which is this crazy term, I guess Carrie Fisher wants, everyone's referred to Carrie Fisher as a script doctor. The script is dying, bringing in the script doctor. It is not really a thing. You're just a screenwriter. Every screenwriter will work on trying to sell a movie or a TV show, trying to write something original, working on someone else's project. Sometimes you get called in to do a rewrite on someone else's project. And I guess you could say that person is a script doctor. Some people say, I want to be a script doctor. And there's no such thing. You want to be a screenwriter who maybe gets side work doctoring someone else's script, fixing someone else's script. But by the way, no one's going to hire you to fix someone's script if you can't do it yourself.If you don't write a good script on your own, no one's going to pay you to fix someone else's. Like we're, it's just such a amazing, there's so much bad knowledge on the internet that people are just fishing out and they're thinking, well, I don't really want to write a screenplay. It's a lot of work. I don't really want to learn how to write, but I don't mind fixing someone else's piece of crap. Who do you think is going to hire you if you can't do it yourself? So you need to learn the art of, in the craft of screenwriting, you need to learn it. So this thing about script doctoring, it's just a fancy word that, what are you talking about?Phil Hudson:Yeah. There's another avenue to this, and without naming names, there are people who call themselves script doctors who will read your script, Michael, for $500, and give you notes and tell you all of the problems and help you fix. Yeah,Michael Jamin:I'd like to read their script and find out if they can write and, well, I'd like to read, I'd like to see their credits. I'd like to look 'em up on I md. But what have they done that so good at telling you how to do that job? Really,Phil Hudson:It's a lot of money being spent by naive people who want to be rider and people selling the dream. And you don't do that. You sell the reality, the harsh reality.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And I know say that even at the end when I'm talking about my course, I'm, listen, I have a course, you can get it or not. Okay. If you don't want to get it, just keep following me. I offer a lot of free advice. I'm not trying to trick anybody into buying anything.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And you also tell 'em like you're not going to make their careerMichael Jamin:Like you. No, I'm not. Yeah. All I can do is help you. I can teach you what I know. It's up to you to who knows what kind of talent you have and who knows what kind of work ethic you have that's on you. So yeah,Phil Hudson:Ariel Medley, I'm an aspiring screenwriter with a two-year-old child. Should I ever get into his writer's room? Any advice on balancing the long hours with parenting? And I thought this was a good one because you had kids when you were writing, right? You were in your career.Michael Jamin:Sure, I have. And I was just talking to my friend Cliffy, Carrie Cliffy yesterday, and she has a kid, and so it is hard for her to have long hours. It's hard, especially, I think this is a woman who asked this question.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I heard Ariel, so I'm assuming the mother. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So yeah, it's definitely hard. I mean, the hours in TV can be really brutal, and you will probably be away from your child for long hours. So how do you balance? So that's just the job is the hours are terrible. It might not be for something that you want to consider until your child is a little older. So in the meantime, work on your craft, become really, really good so that when your kid is in high school and wants nothing to do with you, you don't feel so bad when you're working till midnight every night. And at that point, if you're worked on your craft so long, you're going to be really good. Perfect timing is perfect. You'll spend next. Why not spend the next 13 years getting really good at writing so that when you get that job, woo, you can start flying.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. It's tell you, it's tough. I was working 14 hour days as a producer's assistant on a feature film when my kid was born. And that was just, I would go days without seeing my kid leave before she got up. And that sucked really hard. I miss those days, but I cherished and treasured those midnight cry sessions and the weekends. So yeah,Michael Jamin:JustPhil Hudson:Make the most of the time and be as present as you can be. Paul Cromwell. Do aspiring writers ever make it after turning in a bad draft and burning their one shot?Michael Jamin:Well, I, if you're on, I, do they ever make it? I can't say ever. I can't speak for all of HollywoodWhen I'm on staff of a TV show. If a writer turns in a draft that's unusable, then you got to measure it. Well, how good are they in the writer's room? How much do they contribute that's usable? They may be terrible in the room and their scripts are terrible. Well, that they're not going to, they're gone. But they may actually have really good ideas, but still need a little more handholding, a little more mentorship. And maybe it's a diamond in the rough. But the problem is that these days have changed. When I broke in the writer's staff, the writer's rooms were much larger. And so you could hide if you're a young writer and you didn't really know how to do it yet. Most don't. You could hide a little bit. Today, the writer's rooms are smaller, the budgets are smaller, so there's, there's fewer places to hide. And so you really want to be prepared. You really want to understand story structures so well that you can turn on a draft so that you don't have to worry about being fired because a shame, it's hard enough to break in and then now you've fired. Great.Phil Hudson:And tying it back to what we talked about at the beginning, specifically for aspiring writers, I effectively burned my one shot with you when sent you my first script. It was not a good script. I understood nothing about story structure. I just knew how to put some things together and some formatting, but I didn't burn my bridge with you because of the goodwill I had earned and the understanding of where I was at and your mentorship. But I understood also sending more bad stuff real quick was a quick way to burn that bridge, which is why I didn't. So you just got to be conscientious and you got to have social skills. The social awareness is a really key thing. And I apologize, I didn't write this person's name down, but I'm a student and I don't have the money for the course. This is speaking about your screenwriting course. If I could do a monthly payment that is not one quarter of my entire paycheck for my minimum wage job, is there any way I could get it cheaper? And I thought this was an interesting one because there are a lot of people who want to know, can I take your course? I can't afford the course right now. Any thoughts on that?Michael Jamin:Well, I mean, yeah, we have a monthly payment plan. So where it's a hundred something a month for six months, which is not terrible, but if you're making minimum wage, everything's going to seem expensive to you. I mean, a bar of soap is going to seem expensive. So right now, you have to prioritize, you need to pay, eat, you need to pay your rent and have food. That's the most important thing until you start having more money, then you have a little more spending cash. But I never try to convince somebody to pay me over putting food in their mouth, in their mouth, eat first. Yeah. That's more important than taking a class for me.Phil Hudson:And that's why you do so much in terms of podcasting and the webinars and all these things, just so that you can give that stuff. And it's really a quality check on the people entering the private Facebook group and those things, it's important, valuable information, that's why.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But I give up plenty, like Phil saying, I give up plenty of free knowledge all the time, so that go enjoy that. So that's okay. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Awesome. And then the last three questions here. I know we're getting close on time, the Jovin Sure has two questions. Alright. What's the difference between a studio wanting to cast someone and to develop them?Michael Jamin:Oh, well, often when you're developing a TV show, I'm sure probably the same for movies, but you'll have talent attached or you'll think of attaching talent. Hey, if I go in with this actor, well, can I sell it? And sometimes you'll be told that actor is casting, or sometimes you can say no, they're development and it, it's up to the studio to decide whether the character, whether that actor is casting or not. Which in other words, do they have enough, does the studio want, is willing to pay to put them in the middle of a show? I mean, Tim Allen is not casting Tim Allen you developed for, because he's done so many hits. And so anytime he's attached to a project, the studio's going to probably green light it. And if you go in with Tim Allen or your pitch, it's sold and it's probably on the airs.But if you went in with someone who was like Tim Allen, funny, like Tim Allen, and only using Tim Allen's name because someone mentioned him on the picket line today. If you went into someone like him who had done a couple of guest spots where maybe he's a standup, but no one's heard of he, that's casting. So those questions, and I'm not the one, like I said, I'll often ask my agent or managers, this is this actor, this famous actor who we've heard of. Are they casting or are they development? Can you? And sometimes my managers say, no, no. As famous as they are, they're casting.Phil Hudson:That's wild. I just learned something. I had no idea the difference in this terms. And that's backwards of what I expected that to be.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? Yeah.Phil Hudson:No, that's awesome. Thanks for the question. Follow up. Another question from the Jovin Insure. What's your take on modern Multicam shows? It's clear, clearly not as popular as it used to be. That's a bit of an opinion. And the writing quality seems to be less than most other single cam comedies.Michael Jamin:Well, the studios are always, or networks are always saying, we want more multi cameras because they're less expensive to make, but they seem to always buy single camera shows. I think single camera shows lend themselves to a higher level. They just have a patina about them. And by the way, I've written both and I don't really have a preference as to which one I want to write. They just seem to have a patina. But that's not to say friends. Friends just say, great. And that was a multi-camera show as Seinfeld as well. So yeah. Why do they do less? I don't know. It can be eggy. Sometimes they have cornier jokes. That's not really a good thing. It's just the writing isn't as good. Whereas on a single camera show, often you can go straight. You don't have to have corny jokes. Why is this? I don't know. This is just doesn't, it's such a weird thing to say because back in the seventies there were many multi-camera shows that were not corny and they didn't have a lot of jokes. It's just that styles have changed. And often these networks, they want to have more jokes per page. That's just kind of what they want.Yeah. I didn't answer the question. I'm sorry.Phil Hudson:I tried. No, I think you did. I addressed the core of the question. Okay. Writing quality seems to be less than, and it'sMichael Jamin:Just part of it. Yeah, sometimes it is and sometimes it's not. It just depends on the show. Friends is really good.Phil Hudson:And you've had a ton of really strong multi-cam showrunners on the podcast interviewing, talking about things. So if you haven't gone and listened to those episodes, go do that. And you can see these are people who are pros at the highest level doing their job as best as they can. But oftentimes you're working for someone else, you're giving them the show, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Yeah. So,Phil Hudson:All right, last question from Angelina. What opportunities are best to learn from and take advantage of while being a current college student?Michael Jamin:Oh, any opportunity you go make a friend, make a movie with your friends, with the other film students or whatever co college students your opportunities are to write, act, perform, make whatever opportunity is in front of you. Take it. If it's helping somebody out on a student film, do it. This is your start at the bottom. Any opportunity if you have on the week during summer break, if you're able to get any kind of job as a receptionist in a production house or a studio or anything to get, but take it. Whatever you can do to get closer to your goal, whatever your job is, physically closer, take it. There's no opportunity that's wrong. Yeah. You even if you want to work at a med, you get a job as at a working for a talent agent. Alright, that's better. That's closer than you were before. Don't stick it out longer than you have to. But you'll learn just even if you want to be a screenwriter, you'll learn a little bit about the business by working for an agent or a manager.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I wish in film school I would've spent more time taking advantage of production opportunities, but I was so focused on being a writer. I didn't do that. And then when I got to Los Angeles, I would've had far more opportunities if I'd done that. Yeah. Yeah. I had to do things. I knew how walkie works. I knew kind of the basic job of being a pa. I knew what CS stands were. I knew all that stuff, but just didn't quite get the scope of work entailed to do something. So make sure you get those opportunities. That's it. Michael, that's, those are your questions from our May webinar.Michael Jamin:We did it, Phil. Thank you everyone. That's it. We are continue to, I got a newsletter. Everyone should be on that. You should be watching as much as you can. It's free. You can go to michael jamon.com, you can find all this free stuff. I got a free screenwriting list. I got a free webinar that I do once a month. I got a newsletter. We have downloads, we have all this stuff to make your life easier to get along your, to get your dream of whatever it is to become working in Hollywood. So there's plenty of resources. Go get it. Go get it. You know? That's right. Phil, anything else?Phil Hudson:Yeah, the only thing I wanted to point out, I don't think you said it for information about your book, Michaeljamin.com/upcoming, which is also on the site, but particular because you brought it up. I want to make sure knew about that link.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That's a collection of personal essays and some of the stories are for me working in Hollywood and some are just are not. But you'll see when you read it, I hope you all read it. These are little stories and each one could easily be a movie or an episode of a television show. And these are true stories for my life, and you all have the same thing. And in my course, I teach you how to write stories like this and it's lovely. So if you want to go be notified when I start touring to come to your city, go to michael jamon.com/upcoming and I hope to see you there.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's a really great example for anybody interested in being a writer or an actor or anybody, either. There's a lot of nebulous terms that have been in the industry for a hundred years and write what is one that may not make sense to a lot of people, but yeah, that is a really strong example of doing that. It's mining your life for stories and those kinds of things. Other thing I wanted to point out, we do a webinar every month. Like you said, there's one coming up. Make sure you go to michael jamon.com/webinar. Get on the list and register. It's completely free. You can catch the replay if you can't make it to the official thing, but that's incredibly valuable information that you provide to anybody.Michael Jamin:Yeah, so we'll see you there. Alright, awesome, Phil, thank you so much everyone. Until next week, keep writingPhil Hudson:Cha ChowMichael Jamin:Cha Chow.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamon and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar@michaeljamon.com slash webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamon on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @ PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

This week, Emmy nominated Writer/Producer Jonathan Fener, (American Dad!, iCarly, The Mindy Project, and many more) is on the podcast discussing the importance of having access to industry professionals, getting his footing in the industry, and working in the multi-cam world.Show NotesJonathan Fener on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0271779/Jonathan Fener on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jfenskiMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:I always say, you're kissing the wrong asses. Kiss the asses of assistants because they're not go, you know, they don't get their asses kissed. They, they love it. I mean, who wouldn't get, give 'em some attention. They get abused all the time, then they rise up eventually. So, yeah, those are the ones. You gotta be nice to the assistants always, you know.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I have a wonderful guest today. This is a, this is a, I'm gonna tell you the story, how, how we met. So, as you know, the Writers Guild of America's on Strike, and my next guest is a well-known Setcom writer, although we've never worked together over the years. So our paths, you know, we haven't really crossed, but we know all the same people. And then we started, we were on the picket line outside of CBS Radford, and we started chatting and we had a really nice talk. And I was like, well, this, I gotta bring this guy in the podcast. So everyone, if you're driving your car, please pull over, put your hands together. A warm round of applause for Mr. Jonathan Fener. He is, let me just give you some of his credits before I let him talk.You'll notice it's a 45 minute podcast, and I, I do talking for about 44 minutes of it, but I'm gonna talk about your credits. He, he wrote on Bette, the Bette Midler show, Veronica's Closet, do-Over Kid, notorious. It's all relative Method. And Red Father of the Pride, you remember that one with Siegfried and Wright the 78th Annual Academy Awards. I wanna talk about that. American Dad. We know that happy endings, old Soul telenovela, the Mindy Project. How come that wasn't a show? Why was that? Just a project. Trolls Holiday, Elliot to Vegas, American Housewife, trolls, holiday in Harmony. We'll talk about that. And most recently, the iCarly reboot as well as well Mullaney. But guys, this guy's been around the block. John, thank you so much for being on the show.Jonathan Fener:My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thank.Michael Jamin:So, I wanna find out, I wanna know all about your, your history. Let's take it back from the beginning when your great grandparents met. Let's really do a deep dive into your life. ,Jonathan Fener:Eastern Europe.Michael Jamin:Eastern Europe. Let's justJonathan Fener:Do, yeah, let's go back to Eastern Europe.Michael Jamin:But tell me were you, were okay, so how did you first break into the business and did you always know you wanted to be a, a, a setcom writer?Jonathan Fener:Yeah. I, I, even when I didn't know that's what I wanted to do, I, I look back and I'm like, oh, that's what I wanted to do. You know, I, I feel like I'm part of a, a generation that you know, back to watching television shows, videotaping, you know, Saturday Night Live and Uhhuh and sitcoms and, and like I used to audiotape them toMichael Jamin:StudyJonathan Fener:Them and watch. Yeah. And, and, and like, I would, I would watch Saturday Night Live, even when I was old. It wasn't old enough to like watch it. I would tape it on the VCR that we had, the, the one that popped up Yeah. At the top. And then and then I would have an, and then in the morning I'd watch it all day. And I would, and, and I used to make mixtapes, I guess video mixtapes where I would like, like mix and match different sketches that I liked. And then I and I used to listen to those all the time. And then I would also, I'd watch television shows. I did do that thing where I, I would tape television shows and then I would try and like write out the script. I didn't, I didn't know what the formatting was, so I always was interested in Yes, you'dMichael Jamin:Write it, what kind of word for word? Or you'd write your own,Jonathan Fener:I'd write it word for word. I would transcribe.Michael Jamin:Because that made you a writer then. Did you think that was, what was the point of that?Jonathan Fener:Well,Michael Jamin:,Jonathan Fener:It's like this this, this is gonna sound douchey maybe, but I remember reading this quote, I, I, I think Hunters Thompson once said that he used to just type pages of the Great Gatsby, just to feel oh, what it was like to really, to write those words. Yeah. and so you can draw a direct line between me and Hunter s Thompson and The Great Gatsby. Yeah. And, you know, the Bette Midler show. Like, they're basically one to one.Michael Jamin:But then, and Okay, go on. So then, then as a kid, you,Jonathan Fener:Well, I always was a, I was a huge comedy fan. I was a huge movie, television, e everything fan, standup comedy. I loved standup comedy. Right. So was always too afraid to do it. But yeah, I mean, I always knew I wanted to be part of making that comedy, you know, television, movies, all that stuff. So I went to Fast Forward, I went to usc. I, I I didn't go to the film school, but I, I just was, just wanted to be in la Oh. And I guess sort of the way sort of goes, you, you get outta school and, and I, I knew a guy that I went to school with who worked at a talent agency, and he got me a job as a messenger when they were still inMichael Jamin:Existence as a messenger. And so you were driving around town delivering envelopes.Jonathan Fener:That sounds terrible. Thomas Guide. WithMichael Jamin:Your ThomasJonathan Fener:Guide, right? No yeah. In the heat and the traffic. And howMichael Jamin:Long did you do that for?Jonathan Fener:I was probably a messenger for about, I don't know, matter of months, maybe like 3, 4, 5 months. And then a desk opens up and then you're, you're answering phones, so, oh, soMichael Jamin:You didn't have to go to the mail room, you went from Messenger toJonathan Fener:It really wasn't a mail room. I, it was a very small town agency. Okay. It, it was called the Herb Schechter Company. Sure. I dunno if you ever No, I've heard. And it was like back in the day where, you know, he mostly represented like TV writers. They had a whole below the line department. It was a small agency and they didn't really have a male. One boutique. Yeah. Boutique. Boutique. They had a lot of like, guys that were like supervising producers on Magnum, stuff likeMichael Jamin:That. But that's a good, but then, so how long, cuz you know, I was a, I was an assistant at William Morris for three days. I got fired on my second day and I go, but I stuck out the week. I finished the week . So I, I applaud you for being like, it's just a hard job being an assistant for an agent, because I found it was,Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was an assistant for a lot of different people. I was, I, and it, I think it helped that it was kind of, I, I don't know if low, I guess low stakes, cuz it wasn't like, I wasn't at caa. I wasn't at, you know, William Morris. I was at this tiny little agency and this woman I worked for was, you know, she represented like stunt coordinators and, and oh, like that. So not that, look, I still had to do the like, rolling calls thing and all thatMichael Jamin:Stuff. But did you, but did that, did that give you context? Like what did that, what what, what was your takeaway from doing that job for howeverJonathan Fener:Long? Honestly, a lot of the jobs I had until I was a writer were, it taught me what I didn't want to do. Yes. I'm like, oh, I work for an agent. I don't wanna be an agent. Right. And then there's like a network of assistances mm-hmm. where, you know, there was another agent there, this really nice woman named Deborah Lee. I still remember her. She she called me in one day. She's like, what do you want to do? What are you doing? I'm like, I don't know. You know, I mean, I, I think I wanna write, but, you know, may maybe I wanna be a creative exec. I just, I wasn't sure. Okay. So she was like, well, I have a friend who works at Fox and they need an assistant. So, you know, if you wanna get outta here and go work there.And I was like, great. So I went to go work for this other woman and then I just met, I would just meet assistants and they would offer me other jobs. I worked for this guy. My biggest assistant job was I worked for this guy John Matian, who was the president of Fox Network. Mm-Hmm. . So that was the first time where I saw an entire television season from pitches, development scripts and shooting all the way through. Right. Cause I was on his desk and I read every script that came across his desk that was like, I don't know if you remember that guy, or even like, that was the year, that was like in the early mid nineties when they were like, maybe gonna try and do like friends. Like they had this show called Partners and Ned and Stacy andMichael Jamin:Ned and Stacy. Yep.Jonathan Fener:It was becoming a little bit more of like, let's try and make a, a friends clone. So like the XFiles was happening then, right? It was just like, it was, I had one year where I had an entire overview of television and I'm like, and then I would read the scripts and I'm like, I think I can, I I can do this. I can. SoMichael Jamin:Did who, where did you learn to write then? What do you, what was the next step?Jonathan Fener:I just figured it out. I mean, I think that what happened was I met my partner who was my friend Josh by Cell. And we were buddies. And he was at UCLA in screenwriting school actually. Okay. And he was actually writing with his dad. He, him and his dad were writing a script together. It was, it was very, and I was, we would just talk about stuff. And, and then, so the story is that we had another friend who was a PA on this show called The Single Guy. Yep. Remember that show with Jonathan Silverman? Yes.Michael Jamin:Jonathan Silverman. Yep.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. The Brad Hall show. And we, he used to bring home scripts every week and we would read them and we were like, I can't remember, one of us pitched an idea, but funny if they did an episode, whatever, like in real time of whatever. And then we're like, we should write it. Let's just write it. We know how to do it. We should just write it. So we sat down and wrote this script and it was, I thought it was pretty good. And , we, we, and, and again, the assistant network was we knew somebody who was an assistant to Richard Whites at the time. Yeah. Who was a young guy. AndMichael Jamin:And young agent. He was I c m probably, right?Jonathan Fener:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and it was just one of these things where like, after a while I was assistant for three, four years and I had access cuz all the young people that I was working with were now becoming executives or agents. Yeah. So there were people you could actually hand your script to. They would read it as opposed to just throwing it in a pile. Right. And the, the, the long and the short of it was Richard read the script because Brad was a client of his, and I remember he called me at my house and he was like, your friend Mallory gave me your script. I think it's funny and I think that you need to write something else because no one will read a single guy. He's like, I only read it because I represent Brad, but no one will read. He's like, you have to write friends, you have to write Seinfeld, you have to write news, radio, whatever. So Right. That, that was kind of the first thing where we were like, Hey, we can maybe do this. Let's doMichael Jamin:This. That's interesting because this is what I say. Cuz people always sit and they're like, well, do I have to move to Hollywood to break into Hollywood? It's like, well, this is how you do it. You get these jobs, you know, you become an assistant and you network or you get on the network and then that's how you make connections. So that's what you did. I do. I wonder, do you think the assistant network is still strong now? I mean, so everything's changing so much.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. You know, it's a good question. You know, it's like, that's the age old question. Like, how do you break in? And, you know, I feel for years now that like, maybe that's not the way it's done anymore. May maybe I'm just looking at like, stuff as like an older guy where like I look at people and I go, I don't know. Can't you make your own television show on your phone? Or something like, I, but you know, you, you still need some kind of access, I think. And maybe I don't even, maybe I don't, I can't wrap my mind around it a little bit. But like, it just seems like if you do, if you write something, if you make something, someone's gotta watch it. Someone's gotta see it. Mm-Hmm. that can make a decision for you or, or help you. Right. And that's about, that's about that relationships.Michael Jamin:But then how did, so what was your next step? How did you get on staff?Jonathan Fener:We wrote a bunch of specs and we had some friends that were becoming agents. A guy that I, I, I was, I was an assistant with a guy who became an agent and he was a paradigm. We, we kind of, we worked with him for a little bit, but it was, we, cuz like we were friends and like, when things don't go so well sometimes mm-hmm. , it's like it's messing up the relationship. So I think we just were able to get, look, we, we, we, anybody that would read our script, that was a, that was a young agent, we would somehow try and get to them. And everybody passed. One guy at I C m mm-hmm. was signed us. I mean, I, I remember very clearly getting a phone call. I, I, you know, my partner and I, Josh, our birthdays are a week apart. We really were like, you know, we were friends, we were, you know, we, it was like intertwined lives. But we were having like a joint birthday party mm-hmm. . And we got a phone call that, you know, they wanted to sign us. And that was a big, big fuckingMichael Jamin:Deal. And, and what, and they submitted you to which show? What was the first show then?Jonathan Fener:Well, this is funny how things work too. So his one big connection was this woman shit. Her name was Debbie. This is Embarra. I, that's okay. She, she ran Bry, Kaufman Crane. She was like their development person.Michael Jamin:Right.Jonathan Fener:And I feel bad that I don't remember her name cuz she was sweet. And, but that was a good relationship that he had. Mm-Hmm. . So they submitted us for Veronica's Closet. Right. The, it, it was, it had done a year. It did. Well, you know, Christie alley's back to TV and it was, I mean, it was Thursday night. Yeah. Nbc I mean, it was a huge, huge show. AndMichael Jamin:Let's take it back for a second. That used to be a big time slot. Thursday night, n b slate, nbc. Now I don't even know what now. I don't know what they, what they're doing there, but maybe some, it's reality. It's soJonathan Fener:Fire, something fire.Michael Jamin:Is it some dump Dumpster fire? But that's the one. So, but it's, so, but this is something else that you bring up which I think is really interesting. Like, people always say you're kissing, I always say you're kissing the wrong asses. Kiss the asses of assistant because they're not go, you know, they don't get their asses kissed. They didn't, they love it. I mean, who wouldn't get, give 'em some attention. They get abused all the time, then they rise up eventually. Yeah. So those are the ones you gotta be nice to the assistants always, you know,Jonathan Fener:Oh, yeah. Christmas, you know, send them, get the, get the gift card, do the thing. Yeah. I mean, you know, they'll put your call through. I mean, look, I mean, they can do only so much, but yeah, it was, it's just, again, everybody, even if it's the same trajectory, everybody's story is a little bit different, you know? Yeah. And you know, it, it was, I think we were, I think we were lucky, but it was also, it was a, it was, you know, I, I hate to sound like I'm a thousand years old, but it was a very different time. Yeah. And, you know, staffing was like, almost were all seemed like so many opportunities. And it was just like, it almost seemed like, it wasn't like, you know, if I'm gonna get staffed, it was sort of like, where am I gonna get staffed? And, and but, but you know, you sweated out and I never felt like that. I mean, and for every, we, we, I don't think, you know, look, I, I think we were good and, and, but and still are. But you know, I never felt like we were juggling offers . Yeah. You know, it was definitely like, you know, okay, we got this gig and, and you know,Michael Jamin:Yeah. People don't, people don't realize that as well. Like, once you're in, it's great. It, that first job is hard, but you're, then you always gotta worry. You gotta worry about your next job. None of it's, you know, if people think well, you know, it is like you must have it made, but you don't, you never have it made. You're always hustling.Jonathan Fener:Never.Michael Jamin:What did you feel your first season as a staff writer? Did you feel comfortable? Did you feel like, oh, and over your head?Jonathan Fener:Honestly, no. I, I, I can say that with confidence. I felt like I got there and I was like, yeah, this is what I should be doing. Oh, you said I'm not just Yeah. You know, look, we were the youngest guys that, you know, we were the staff writers. Right. The baby writers. It was a very challenging place to work. I mean, you know, Bry, Kaufman Crane, you know, look, we, I could, we could do an entire podcast on just working on b Brianca's Closet and just literally being down the hall from season five of friends. It's like the Beatles. Yes. They, they, their, their dressing room is down the hall. And I'm, you know, with Jerry the Pacemakers or something. Not that, not that. That's, that's a great reference, by the way, for all your younger,Michael Jamin:I don't, I don't know. Listener. Yeah.Jonathan Fener:Just some, but it was like, and the show was, you know, it, it was what it was. It was funny. There were tons of funny people on that show, people I still talk to, to this day. Honestly, but it was like the, the culture of that. And I think it, it's a, it's, it's not a news story in sitcoms. But, you know, we worked, we watched the Sun come up all the time, and it was really, that was my first step. It was like, I had never done it before, but I was like, I knew immediately. I'm like, this is not the way it, this is not the way it should be. Right.Michael Jamin:Was it cause stories were being tossed out? Or notes from the network or what?Jonathan Fener:Yeah, it, it was poor, poor management.Michael Jamin:Oh, time management. It wasJonathan Fener:Poor time management. You know, I would say like, you know, you're, when you work on a, on a show with terrible hours, you're just like, you're a victim of somebody else's badMichael Jamin:Work. Well, there's, there's that. Yeah. Yeah. I always felt very when we were running a show, I was like, I always felt I would crack the whip just because I felt like I want people to go home. I want stop messing around. And, and I was a hard ass in that way. Cause I wanna go home and I think you wanna go home too, don't you? You know, like, let's just work and go home.Jonathan Fener:Those are the ones, the ones that don't want to go home. Those are theMichael Jamin:Worst. Yeah. Those are the worst. Right. Did you, were you on many shows like that, where you felt like a hostage ?Jonathan Fener:No. well, let me think. Not really. That was the worst. And then there were a couple other shows that were rough, but I think that, like, as time went on, I definitely got lucky as time went on that I, I worked for de Decent people.Michael Jamin:Well, you also had another show that was basically the stepchild, which was American Dad compared to Family Guy. I mean, family Guy. Was this behemoth, not that American Dead was any slouch, but you were still in the shadow of a, a family guy, right?Jonathan Fener:That's right. The other one. Yeah. Yeah. The other show. Which, but that Yeah. And that, that was good point. No, but it was, it was and animation was something that I, you know, we got into pretty early on too. And I really, really liked that. And you know, there, there's animation usually is not terrible because the deadlines are, are way far apart. Yeah. Like, as far as like, you know, like Multicam is probably the worst because it literally, you gotta rewrite itMichael Jamin:Tonight at four, at four o'clock you start your day basically. Yeah. AfterJonathan Fener:The run Yeah. Run through is it ruins your whole night. And then it's like someone has, like, if you're doing single camera, you know it, you're usually reading a script for the next week. So, you know, you want to get it done by tonight, but, you know, maybe you can leave a couple of jokes and then the next day you can like, sort of clean it up. Right. But like Multicam, they're, they're at rehearsal at 9:00 AM so they need a script.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. And that was your joint. You were on the Warner Brothers slot. All right. So then, so then what happened? You, I'm gonna, I'm going with your credits over here. So Veronica's closet. And then what about, what was, you were there for, well, how many, well, how many seasons was that? The show was what? Two seasons?Jonathan Fener:They did? Th they three. I was on the last two.Michael Jamin:The last two. And then when it was done, what happened?Jonathan Fener:When it was done, I was like, I, I did it. I, you know, no, I, I was like we, we just got back out in the staffing pool, you know?Michael Jamin:Right. And then you just jumped.Jonathan Fener:We, we, yeah, that was the next, the next season we went to, we got on the Bette Midler show, which at the time was like massive. It was massive. ThatMichael Jamin:Was massive. And then,Jonathan Fener:And that's another, I'm sorry to interrupt. I was gonna say, like, that's an interesting story where, you know, I don't know if you think of 2 26 year old guys as like, yeah, we gotta get those guys on the Bette Midler show. Mm-Hmm. . But our agent submitted us, and at the time we were even thinking to ourselves like, what, what samples can we write that are a little different? So we wrote a Buffy, the Empire Slayer Script, just cuz like, we liked the show and Right. The tone. And so we wrote that and then, and I think we were like, maybe we can look and see about, you know, maybe getting on like an hour or something like that. And then the, it just so happens that Jos Whedon, I think worked for the guy that created that show, Fette.Michael Jamin:So I was gonna say, I wanted to say Cohan and Nik, but no, that, I don't think that's right. Who created it?Jonathan Fener:Jeffrey Lane.Michael Jamin:Jeffrey Lane, of course. Right,Jonathan Fener:Right. Who was a big mad about you, dude.Michael Jamin:Yes. And then, then working for Bette. I mean, that's, that's a whole other thing. You have this oversized star, really a giant star. And she must have had a lot of creative input.Jonathan Fener:Yeah, yeah. You know, she had opinions, but no, she was it was, it was nuts. I mean, you know, they picked that show up for a full season, which even, even then wasn't a thing. And she, she just was like, like such a massive force, you know? Yeah. Almost too big for television. I would even say, like, I remember thinking, she's on the stage and I'm like, and I mean the sound stage. Like I can see her playing Caesars just live or in the movies where she's gigantic. But there's also, there's, there's, I don't know if muting is the right word, but you know what I mean, like, like, there's just something about those mediums that like, sort of, and, and I just think on tv she just was like, massive. Just like, but, but, you know, really funny. And, you know, she did everything. You know, she sang the Rose and she, it was like, pulled out all the stops. It was just, it was almost like, and I don't think she knew what being on a television show entailed. I think when you take people that have never worked on TV and put them on tv, they're like, I have to come back again tomorrow. And Yeah. Tomorrow. And it's a new script today. And like, they're used to shooting films, but even like, it, it's, it's a grind for everybody. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Fener:SoMichael Jamin:She, she became a little cantankerous. You think ?Jonathan Fener:She, I think, yeah. No, she, she, she, you know, she liked me. she liked me and my partner. We, we wrote this episode actually with Kobe Bryant in it.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay.Jonathan Fener:And I think they were like, get the young guys to write this. And Kobe was, and he agreed to do the show. I think his wife was a huge Bette Midler fan. He, I think he said, I mean, he was nice guy. I remember meeting him and the show, I mean, think about this. We shot the sh we shot our episode in the forum. Like, and, and the, the, the plot of the show is that, that becomes like, she basically accidentally gets onto the court and she starts dancing with the Laker girls. IMichael Jamin:Don't know, but it was a multi happened. It was a Multicam, right?Jonathan Fener:Yeah. But they just, they shot it on the forum, I mean, on form. They, and it was, it was the kind of thing where it was like, whatever it cost, it cost,Michael Jamin:Right.Jonathan Fener:They booked the forum and, and that episode sort of turned out okay. And then I think she felt like, oh, these guys get the show. So they took us out, she took us out to lunch, and she's like, what should, what should the show be? You guys see that? OhMichael Jamin:No. Oh no. And you guys are, you guys are story editors at this point. Right. See, that would be panicked about that. That's not good.Jonathan Fener:Co Cohen was at that lunch too.Michael Jamin:Oh, she took Rob. See, that's the thing. She lovedJonathan Fener:Rob, loved Rob.Michael Jamin:My, my rule of thumb early in my career is don't let the actors know your name cuz only bad things can come of it. . And then, and then, right. So she takes you and now you're, maybe you don't wanna talk about this, but I, that puts you in a difficult position because she should be taking the showrunner and the showrunner should be bouncing you. She should be bouncing the ideas and not, you know,Jonathan Fener:You know. Yeah. It was a Yeah, it was. I mean, I didn't know. We were just like, well, you know, just more do more of this stuff. Right, right. You know, we'll, you know, go to a baseball game. Or, I, I just think she, I, I, look, I think that she was searching for what the show was. I think the showrunner was, I think they just were, and it was a, it was a weird, not a weird premise, but it was like, she, she played a character named Bette, and she played Aer that was a famous Hollywood actress and had been in a movie called The Rose and all these things that were true. Right. But she kept saying, I'm, but I'm not Bette Midler.Michael Jamin:She would say that in the show, but I'm not Bette Midler. She would say, she would say that toJonathan Fener:Us. Oh, okay. Cause we would write jokes and she's like, but I'm not Bette Midler. And we're like, but you were in The Rose. And we're like, okay. Bette Schidler. You're bet. Schidler. Yeah. And, and, and a lot of stuff that happened to her in real life we would try and put into the show. But it was like, it was just one of those things where we were just trying to find our footing and, and, and never really found it.Michael Jamin:Wow. But that's pretty cool though. I mean, hanging out with Bette Midler's pretty cool. SheJonathan Fener:Was something else, man. She was like a, like I said, like a force, like just funny and, and just larger than life. AndMichael Jamin:You know, but we were, we didn't just shoot me. And and George Siegel, of course, in the seventies, there was no bigger actor than George Siegel. And he wasJonathan Fener:Huge. Yeah. Funny.Michael Jamin:And then c just shoot me. And we wrote an episode and he, George could not have been a sweeter guy, such a nice guy and great sense of humor. But there was one episode he, I guess he wasn't happy with what he was playing. Maybe he didn't have enough lines, or maybe he thought his storyline was dumb or whatever. . But I remember he, we were all the writer's rehearsal. And George goes, you know, I was nominated for an Emmy. I'm sorry. He was, you don't have nominated for an Oscar. You know that. Right. And one of the writers goes, yeah, that was a long time ago. George. Get in the dunk tank. . And George thought that was so funny. I mean, he like, to his credit, he just laughed. He thought it was great. .Jonathan Fener:That's so funny.Michael Jamin:That's what's fun about working with some of these, you know, some, some of these old timers are great, some of them are, you know, a little di difficult. Who knows. All right. So then what, at what point did you guys start developing your own shows? Cause that's always a big leap.Jonathan Fener:You know, we, we were kind of like wanting to do that early. And I remember that was another thing that was not encouraged. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Not then itJonathan Fener:Wasn't at all. It was just sort of like, it was the tail end of it, but it was kind of just like, here's the model. Get on staff. Mm-Hmm. work your way up to producer, supervising producer, get a deal. Mm-Hmm. and then you develop. Right. So that was the, that was the the road. But we were like, no, we have some ideas. And you know, if they don't wanna listen to us at, at nbc, then maybe they'll listen to us at mtv. So we had heard that MTV was looking to develop shows. Cheap show. I mean, it's like that thing every, like couple of years. MTV's like, we wanna do scripted. And then they would hardly ever do it, but Right. We had this idea that we would do cuz they wanted to repurpose videos, but somehow do it in a scripted way.So we had this idea that we would do like Dream on, but with music videos. So it was about a kid whose interior monologue was music videos instead of old movies. Right, right. And like, just seemed it was like risky business, but the kid is 16 and he's just that. So we sold that. We actually sold that and wrote it and it never got shot. But that was like, pretty early. That was like a couple years in. And we sold a movie. Like, we were kind of like trying a bunch of stuff. But I think that we early on were like, I feel like we should do our own stuff too. Uhhuh . So I always have said like, like, like I don't, I don't know what it's like to have just like one job. I always feel like I was doing two things at once. So like, eventually if people are always like, they're on staff, like I was always on staff. And then on the weekends I was working on the other thing.Michael Jamin:You see, people don't understand how exhausting that is cuz you're on staff, you're working very long days and then on the weekends you're working more. You know, it's, it's, it's good for you when you're, you know, it's hard. It's hard to do that. Yeah.Jonathan Fener:It was hard. And I think it was the right look. I wasn't, I was, I was, I was married, but I didn't have any kids and mm-hmm. , you know, but it's, it was tough, man. I mean, you know, and, and that was back before you, we were zooming. So like, we would go, I'd go to Josh's house, he'd come to my house, Uhhuh, . I mean, we used to literally meet in the middle and trade.Michael Jamin:Oh. Cause you guys, you guys let, did you live far apart from each other?Jonathan Fener:Yeah, yeah. We, we, we, yeah. UsuallyMichael Jamin:Trade far discs. So I'm, I'm skipping ahead a little bit, but, but I'm curious to know, well first of all, I wanna know how, what was the academy, how did you work on the Academy Awards? How did that come about? That's such an odd term for you thatJonathan Fener:Yeah, that was, that was the connection. There was, that was the year John Stewart hosted, I don't know if that was his first time. I know he did a bunch of times. It was the year of crash crash one. Okay. The best picture. And like Philip er Hoffman one for Capote, but John was Right. Was hosting and he brought out like a bunch of daily show people. And my partner went to college with a guy, Ben Carlin. Yes. Who I kind of became friends with too, because of those guys. So, so Ben was running the Daily Show. He was one of the eps. And so when he came out, he called me and Josh and a couple of other guys and asked if we wanted to be part of the staff of people. Basically they, the, the Daily Show guys wrote the monologue. They asked us the la guys to write like short film parodies of the nominees.Right. So, and then, you know, maybe help out with the, and and, and on on show night we would be part of the joke room cuz they're writing jokes throughout the night. With like, I mean, Bruce Lance was there mm-hmm. and some local school guys were, were there. But so yeah. So we basically pitched like 20 little short filmed things and they picked five or six of 'em and then we got to produce them and, and, and all that. But we were part of that whole thing. That sounds fun. Yeah, it was really fun. It was really, really fun. And like on show night, we literally, they put us down in this basement and we are like watching the show live and it was like instant messaging. If whatever, who, if somebody won something, we would like shoot a bunch of jokes up to them and the wings. ButMichael Jamin:Did you have to wear a tuxedo to do that? Yes. In my mind. You, I knew it in my mind, you have to wear a tuxedo even though you're not gonna be on camera, but you're at the Oscars. Wow. They tell you thatJonathan Fener:Because Yeah. Be because we were, I mean, it was really cool. I mean, we got, went, went to, you know, my, my wife and, and Josh's wife and, and all the wives got to go to the show. Right. They got tickets to the show. We were downstairs and then afterwards we went to the governor's ball. Right. I mean, it was really, I mean, we had access.Michael Jamin:That's a trip.Jonathan Fener:That's, it was, that didn't get a gift back. I was really hoping I'd get like a, because I always, I'm like, there's like a trip to Australia in there or something, but I,Michael Jamin:But you got a nice, you got a nice paycheck that's got that kind of counts for something.Jonathan Fener:I don't remember how much we got paid. I don't know if it was, I, I feel like, I don't knowMichael Jamin:Now what about it was great. What about the Mindy Project? Cuz that was like a big, that must have been a big experience for you.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was fun. And, and that when we were, we had a deal at Universal mm-hmm. . And we had, we, we were kind of lucky. Like we, that was when I worked on the Malaney show and Right. We did a lot of development when we were there and we supervised and ran a couple of shows there. But that was sort of towards the end where they just asked us to come and help out.Michael Jamin:Okay.Jonathan Fener:Oh, for a season. Yeah. And it was it was like, it it is one of those things though, where it was a very tight, well-oiled machine and we, and it was, it was fine. It, it was, it was kind of funny though cuz it was like, you, this sort of happens where, you know, you, you write pilots, you shoot pilots, you run shows, but then sometimes you're a staff guy again. Yeah. And that was a gig where we were sort of like, alright, we're part of this staff. And, and everybody there was like, really funny, really smart. Like, I think, I think that writer's room literally had like three former Lampoon editors, Uhhuh and just like really, really funny smart guys. Right. And women. And we just were like, okay, we're just pitching jokes.Michael Jamin:You're, oh, okay. And then so that, that's, that's the whole experience. But did Mindy run the show? Was she the showrunner at,Jonathan Fener:I mean, she, I she, she had, there was a guy named Matt War Burton, who was sort of running the room mm-hmm. When she was gone. Because the most impressive thing was that she, she shot all day. Yes. Because it was seeing the camera show. She was the star of the show. But she came in at lunch, Uhhuh . And Matt would pitch her and she very efficiently was like, I love this. I love this. What if this happens? What if this happens? Gotta go. And so she, she had the final say. Right. But she was busy, you know. Yeah. And, and that, I I'm trying to think Melany was that way too, but Melany was really part of the writing and that was also a Multicam. So,Michael Jamin:And that was probably, it's, that Melany show was probably three years too soon. Like, you know, like before he really became huge.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. That was, you know, I, I think that, that, this was my opinion and I'm not like making this up. And I remember we used to talk, like John was trying, I feel like John was trying to do something where, you know, everyone just looked at it and at face value and said, oh, it's Seinfeld. He's just doing Seinfeld. But Uhhuh, I think he really, really liked the, the medium. He liked multi-cam, but there was a part of it that I think was a little bit satirical. Mm-Hmm. . But it really, I, I think that if you didn't know that you're just like, oh, he's just, is just a, you know, like I feel like some of the stories that he pitched he felt were funny because it's like, oh, this is kind of a clammy story. But I, but I think it's funny in like, I'm doing it with a wink. Right. But I think people maybe saw it and said, there'sMichael Jamin:No wink. I don'tJonathan Fener:See the wink. Yeah. There's no, yeah. And, and, you know, but it, it was, it's not that it was the wrong vehicle because it was his show. And, and, and he is the funniest guy in the room always, you know? Right. I mean, and NA, see Petra was on the, was in the cast too. She was really funny. There was a great cast. Elliot Gould was on that show. Martin Short was on that show. Yeah. It was like, it was, it was, it was really, really fun. But yeah, maybe it was, I, I think maybe he was trying to like rein, not reinvent the multi-cam, but just like, turn it on 10 a little bit. Right. And it maybe wasn't, no one was like, ready for that.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamen. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.Did you, cause whenever we developed for comics, we, you know, we wound up studying, then we read, we watched the act, we read, listened to their, whatever the audio books or, you know, read their, did you do the same as well forJonathan Fener:I just knew you mean for that show or for,Michael Jamin:Well, for Malaney or, or for any, any comic that you're writing for. Really. Or even like Bette, you know, for example,Jonathan Fener:Well, Bette, I mean, we definitely like combed through her career and her life and mm-hmm. tried to get stories from it. Mm-Hmm. yeah. Whenever, and, and, and, and, you know, the, the Mullany thing, we, we kind of like, we were also, that was a period of time where like, we were on that staff for a period of time, and then we had a pilot picked up and went to go shoot it. Oh. So we were sort of there for a, a specific period of time. But like, that show was all him to me. I mean, he ran that with a guy John Pollock, a good friend who who's also like, he, he's, he's such a good, he's a pro guy. He's a pro and, and can guide things. He's so funny and smart. But so I think that, that they really clicked well. And there were a lot of really funny people on that staff too. But yeah. Yeah. I, I think that to answer your question, it's always good, especially if you're dealing with somebody who's gonna put a little bit of their lives into it, to just mm-hmm. because I mean, frankly, you, you kind of want to like, connect with them too. Like, it's something that they can connect with. Right. Unless they don't wanna do it. Unless they wanna be completely a different person if they're being some version of themselves. Yeah.Michael Jamin:What's so odd is that you and I have never worked together, even though we've worked with so many of the same people, you know? Yeah. It seems, it seems like very odd that, you know, how how did that never happen? But how do you see, like, so okay, we are on strike. How do you see the business now? Like, what do you, like, what's your take on the past, I don't know, three to five years? You knowJonathan Fener:Everything's going great. It's great.Michael Jamin:Everything's perfect.Jonathan Fener: and just getting betterMichael Jamin:.Jonathan Fener:I, everybody knows what's going on. Yeah. no, I I think it, to me it feels like it's a massive sea change. Yeah. It really feels like even having lived through the first strike, like that was streaming was just kind of coming around and, you know, Netflix was a thing and, but now everything has completely been disrupted and mm-hmm. , I just think that I mean look, this is nothing new, but like, you know, to, to me, cable seemed to be working okay. And then streaming came in and it just seemed like there were no parameters. It's like all the streaming services come, came around. And I understood economically that like all the studios are gonna want to have their own thing mm-hmm. and not have to license it to anybody anymore. But without the structure of a, of a schedule, like a nightly schedule, it's just like, it just became a bottomless pit.Yeah. And so there was this five, you know, it, it was the, it was the old, it was the, the Wild West again. And there's a billion shows. And I, I, you know, some of these studios I guess were just like, wait, this is so expensive. Like a full staff for every show and we're making so many shows. We need to, now, now it's like we overspent now we need to back up a little bit. And then, but in the meantime, to me, I just felt like it was, like the rules got changed where there was a somewhat of a model in network television and even cable where it's like, we're gonna pick this show up for X number of episodes. We're gonna have this many people on staff. That's the way it's done. Mm-Hmm. . And then now the, it's like, oh, we have this new area of streaming. We're just gonna do things differently. Now we're gonna hire three people. Mm-Hmm. , or the guy that created the show is just gonna write 'em all and then shoot 'em all. And it, it just, I don't, it's, it's, you know, I mean, all I can know, all I can do is keep doing what I do, but it's, you know, it seems more, it, it really seems, it feels like the ground underneath us is that much more Yeah. Shaky. Really shaky.Michael Jamin:How do you, and what's your take? I don't know if you work a lot with, well you know, young, well, let's see. I actually, I have two questions I wanna ask you cuz your last, your last network show was probably was what The Mindy Project? Cause I haven't worked, I haven't worked in the network for a while. It's all been cable. Right.Jonathan Fener:The last network show I worked on was American HousewifeMichael Jamin:Oh. American House. So it's so interesting. Which wasn't even that long ago. And so you're working with young, there's bigger staffs on network. You're, they're bringing in younger writers. What's it like? What, what are the kids like? Do you think they're different these days on network shows?Michael Jamin:Because we had a hierarchy. We had, there was a pattern. There was a, you know, all broken.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I think it's probably better. I mean, I worked, I worked in some rough rooms and then I worked in some more, you know, I certainly, I don't feel like I ran a rough room. What do you mean?Michael Jamin:What do you mean by rough room? What were they like?Jonathan Fener:Just a, that the, the real hierarchy. Like when I was a staff writer, you were not really expected to talk very much. Right. It was kind of like sit and listen. Right. But and then I'd say I'd, I'd pitch something and they'd be like, not now. And I'd say, I'm sorry. And they'd say, don't be sorry. Just be quiet.Michael Jamin:. Don't be sorry. Don't let happenJonathan Fener:Again. Don't be sorry. Just be quiet. I, I, and like, look, that's the, that's the, it was always done with a joke. You know what I mean? Right. And, and like, I don't ever feel like I was treated cruelly. Mm. I mean, I mean, I guess I, I guess it was cruel that, you know, I did feel like I was held hostage and, you know, yeah. Going home at 6 30, 7 o'clock in the morning in, in rush hour traffic the wrong way. Like yeah. My nights and days were mixed up. But like, eventually what I was gonna say was I just feel like there was something to earning it a little bit. You know, I, I just feel like, you know, even even those first jobs, like, especially like Bright Coffman Crane, I remember there were certain things that you, like, they were big on floor pitching Right.On, on, on, on show night. And that's great experience. I mean, look, multi cams aren't around as much as they used to be, but like, I remember learning a ton. Like, I, I can still shoot back to the time we were on show night and a joke bombed, and then you just huddle up mm-hmm. and you're just staring at each other and everyone's thinking, and you gotta come up with an alt. And people are pitching stuff and it's like, and you pitch a joke and everybody laughs and you're like, oh my God, you're theMichael Jamin:Hero.Jonathan Fener:Amazing. And then, yeah. And then, and then they put it in and itMichael Jamin:Dies and it, and it dies. Yeah. That's what a flip joke. People listen. That's what a floor pitch is. I'm showing that on a multicam, you at the last minute throw a joke in after one bombs. SoJonathan Fener:Yeah. Right. And then you finally, you, you give up and you just pitch a joke with the word nipple in it. . And people laugh at that and you're like, ah, I hate myself. Yeah. But no, but, but I, I think that now, you know, ha like being the older guy and, and even, you know, running a show, like, there, there is a, there is a certain level of like, everybody has an equal voice mm-hmm. . And, which I think is good, you know, but I also think that there's, it's not that you are less than at all. To me it was always about like experience. Mm-Hmm. . Like, you, you just gotta, you know what it is, it's about, it's, there's, there's no substitute for being able to read the room. Yeah. And there are people sometimes that are younger and less experienced and they, they pitch an idea and no one says anything, which is like the night, it's, it's, you know, the worst is if someone says, that sucks. Right. But if you pitch a joke or a story and no one really like, jumps on it, no one Yes. Ands it, you know what, let it float away because Yeah. You know, and then if you re-pitch it and then you re-pitch it,Michael Jamin:You're gonna get yelled at, you'reJonathan Fener:Gonna get yelled at. Like, that's just not cool. And I feel like sometimes maybe people don't like that anymore. You know? Yeah. Like, you're not supposed to do.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I hear you. What, what? Surprised It's so hard. There's a huge learning curve on their job. And when someone pitches an idea, if it's a good idea, it really doesn't matter who it comes from, but it's pretty obvious when it's a good idea. The right. Like the, the senior writers are, oh, that's good. Right. And if you're new inexperienced, you just don't know what's, what's a good idea from a bad idea. And I think they sometimes get a little offended or hurt. It's no, it's, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's just the idea. It's not you, you know? Right. The idea didn't land.Jonathan Fener:Sometimes it's them. No. Sometimes it'sMichael Jamin:ThemJonathan Fener:. But yeah, it's, it best idea wins always, always, always. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Best idea. Gets you homework faster and so and so. Yeah. I know. Well, I was gonna ask you something else. Oh. Oh, that's, that's how I was gonna say we met, we met years ago. Cause you were running a show, which is an interesting thing that you did was said you were running a show called Awesome Town, but you were running it. Someone else with less experienced writer wrote it and you guys were brought on to supervisor it. Right,Jonathan Fener:Right, right.Michael Jamin:It was like, so talk about your experience doing that kind of stuff.Jonathan Fener:That was the first time we'd ever done that. We've, and we've done that a bunch just because I feel like my partner and I, that's not really something that a lot of people love to do, like run other people's shows. Everybody wants to, you know, get your own thing. And we were writing our own pilots at the time too. But if you get enough experience, honestly, you know, my feeling is you want to have as many skills as possible in this business because mm-hmm. , you know, you want to just have another arrow in your quiver.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Fener:That's the right term. But like, so i, if you can successfully help someone just guide the ship and it's their show and they've never done it before, cuz that's a really hard job.Michael Jamin:Were there creative struggles though, between you and them at all when you do this?Jonathan Fener:No, honestly, no. I really feel like it was this guy, Adam Ste. Hillel, who's like super nice guy. He he's like big feature guy now. I think he wrote Black Adam. Mm-Hmm. , he like, works with the Rock a lot and, and he created Undateable with Bill Lawrence too. Mm-Hmm. . So he's, he's had a bunch of stuff. No, he's very nice guy. Very funny. And it was actually kind of cool that he got this job on, it was basically just about the, these four like early twenties friends and negotiating life afterwards and they threw a lot of stuff. It's funny, I remember they, they picked the show up because I feel like a, b C was looking to do something in the younger space. Right. But it did, it was one of those shows. It wasn't, it was very low concept. And there was a whole opening teaser that we, I I always suspected, this is why it got picked up cuz it was very, it was very American pie.It was like kind of dirty and there was like a couple and somebody had peanut butter on them and a dog was looking and Right. You can imagine. So but I remember thinking like, this is why they picked it up because this is outrageous. There's no way they ever shoot this though. Right. Which is like, that's like an age old story in tv. It's like the thing they love about it. Mm-Hmm. is the thing they cut first. It's exactly right. You know, it's like you, you, you pick up a show called like Immortal because the, the lead character ha has been alive for a thousand years. Uhhuh. And then the first note is, can we make him immortal please? Yes,Michael Jamin:That's exactly right.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. but, and you do it cuz you're like, oh, they just they just picked up the show. They just gave me a budget and Right. But so they, they made a bunch of changes to this show and including changing that entire teaser. But it was, it was just an opportunity that came because again, like I think we had written a pilot for the studio that made it and they needed somebody we, like, we had just gone through, you had a deal,Michael Jamin:You probably had a deal at the time, an overall deal. Right.Jonathan Fener:I don't know if we had it like, you know what we did, I think we had just sold a pilot to like 20th Uhhuh . And it was like a very good experience, but we just, it just was one of those shows that like almost got there but didn't Yeah. But then, then they picked up all their other shows and they're like, oh, we're gonna pick up this show with these guys. And we had a good relationship with the development people that like, you know, maybe John and Josh can help with that. So that was awesome. That was, that was like, and I remember like, we cast whoever we want. Like we changed roles because we found, like I'd never seen Brett Gelman before and he came in and was so funny. We're like, we're putting him in this show somehow. He was easily 10 years older than everybody. Well, was supposed to be a coworker, Uhhuh, , ally Wong came in, we're like, Uhhuh, let's create a intern. But it was like, it, it, it was like, it was the first it was a good gig to get. And then from there we, we got a bunch more of those gigs to sort ofMichael Jamin:Like, see, that's, that's a talent, because a lot of, I think sometimes when you have a no, a young creator will create a show. Then they assign a showrunner, and sometimes the showrunner's like, well, listen, my name's on this too, and I don't want this to have, I don't have a stink on me if this is terrible. So they kind of turn into what they want it to be. It doesn't sound like you did that. It sounds like you were very much trying to realize the vision of the person who created these shows, which is nice of you.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. I mean, I don't, maybe that's just the way that we are. I mean, I just feel like that's the fir like, and I'm, look, by the way, that's probably a good way to get the gig, is to go have lunch with them and go, listen your show, man. We're just here to help you carry the water from here to there. Right. And we know how to do it. And but that it's the truth. I mean, honestly, I like, I don't want it to be bad, but like, you know, and like, I'll tell you what, I think I'll give you my opinion, but also like, again, I don't know anybody that could ever do that, show that job alone. Like, it's, it's miserable and not mis, you know what I mean? And we we owe, and plus, you know, you could relate to this too, just being, I mean, being on a writing staff is collaborative anyway, but being in a writing partnership, you just really learn how to negotiateMichael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. Jonathan Fener:Compromise. Mm-Hmm. and talking it out. And, you know, single writers tend to be really, you knowMichael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Fener:Hold onto their stuff cuz there's mm-hmm. Never any other counterpoints. So I feel like we have the right skillset forMichael Jamin:That. Yeah. There's also a sense of, there's so many decisions to be made. If I don't make this one decision, that's okay. I gotta make a million other decisions. So it's okay if I didn't, if I don't make this one decision, you know, there's a lot to do.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. I don't need to be in wardrobe. I always say that. I don't need to be, I don't need, I I you can do rack check. I don't need to do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. There's exactly, there's exactly, there's a ton. I, when we ran Marin, we, the the wardrobe people loved us cuz they chose us choices. And I go, what do you think, you know, well this one. And I said, well, why do you think that one, they gimme reason. I go, all right, sounds like you know what you're doing, . Sounds like you got a good idea there, so let's do what you say.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. I mean how, how many episodes did you do of Maryland?Michael Jamin:We did four seasons. I, I want, it was probably around 50. Cuz each show, each season was, I don't know, whatever, 12, 13 or something like that. Uhhuh . So, yeah. But that was I c and that was a pleasure because it was low budget. They just leave you alone. It was wonderful. So, yeah.Jonathan Fener:And I mean, did you finally that it was, was it hard to produce? Because I mean, how big was your staffMichael Jamin:The first season? So that was a show that was created by this guy Duncan Birmingham. We didn't create it, but he wrote the pilot. He was a young writer. He wrote the presentation and then with Mark, so that season, the first season when they picked it up, it was Mark Marin, who's very good writer, but had no writing experience for sitcoms. He's a, you know, standup, this guy Duncan Birmingham, who was a, a young guy who they just, they they could exploit. So he had no experience and it was me and my partner, and that was it. So we, the ones with any real sitcom experience. And then, but then as each season one, we picked up a couple more writers and then we rounded it out. But but it was a great, it was a wonderful experience, but the budget was tiny. The budget was, it was like nothing. It was nothing. Yeah. And we shot each episode in two and a half days, soJonathan Fener:Really?Michael Jamin:Yeah, it was, yeah. As long as someone's finger wasn't in front of the lens, we got it. , let's move it on. So yeah, that was, that was such a great experience. And, and, and no one remembers that. No one remembers, you know, like, hey, the show, it wasn't that perfectly lit. Yeah, that's okay. But people liked the writing. They like the acting. That's the important thing, you know. So what if the camera went like this a little bit ?Jonathan Fener:Right. my, yeah, my partner always was like, when you're like, he's like, they're doing laundry. They're paying their, they're paying their bills while they watch this. Like, they like the people. Oh,Michael Jamin:Oh, yeah.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. They're like, they're, they're, they're like, they're listening. They're half, you know, they're, they're not,Michael Jamin:Not even anymore. Now they're on their phones and watch. I mean, now they're really not watching the show. . He's Right. Cause like everyone, you know, Siebert, you say the same thing you'd say. Like Yeah, they're, they're reading People magazine, not any anymore. They're not, now they're on, they're watching the show and on TikTok and getting text messages, , they're not paying attention.Jonathan Fener:They're reading the live tweeting. Yeah. Of other people read, likeMichael Jamin:Watching the show for them, so. Right. It's an odd time, but yeah. So what do you s so what do, what excites you then going forward? What, as we, as we wrap it up, what is your, like what excites you now?Jonathan Fener:In entertainment?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Or just, yeah. As a, as a writer. Yeah.Jonathan Fener:I still, I mean, I like what I always liked, honestly. Like, I feel like right now I want to, the thing that I want to do is I, I want to try new things, but I also, I know this is like, but but, but, but also I feel like as I get older, like you have to, you have to always write what's sort of like, I don't know, is like personal to you. Like, I don't know, this is, because then it sort of seems inauthentic. Right? but having said that, like I think that I, I would really like to get back into animation mm-hmm. , I feel, I feel like I, I know it's like, I feel like features, like, like I feel like weirdly streaming has opened that up. Mm-Hmm. a little bit too, cuz like, you know, it's hard to get a movie out in the theaters. I mean, especially now. Yeah. it's not a Marvel thing or something like that. So like, there might be like avenues to go with with streaming movies and stuff like that. But like, I don't know. That's, I mean, it's, it's, it's, I I feel like I don't have any, a good answer to that question because I still really, like, I, I still feel like I always have ideas, Uhhuh, but and, and honestly like more often than not, like I'm looking to collaborate with more people. Yeah. Different people, you know, becauseMichael Jamin:Not necessarily on air talent, but writers as well.Jonathan Fener:Other writers. Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like, you know, if you're lucky you have a long career and mm-hmm. a lot of different types of careers and, you know, my partner and I always said like we we've sort of had an open marriage a little because mm-hmm. , we started out together, we, and, you know, you work very closely with a writing partner and, and we worked together for many, many years and then we sort of split on staff for a while, and then we came back together mm-hmm. for a while, and then now we're separate again. ButMichael Jamin:Was that hard for you when you're writing after you split to start writing alone? Let's say even on staff, cuz this is the first Okay. You usually, you have somebody to bounce an idea off of. Now you're, you're on, you know, you're looking at that blank page by yourself.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. Mm-Hmm. , it's hard to be in that. It's, it's, it's definitely hard. And I feel like I'm getting better at like, sort of reaching out to mm-hmm. other writers and just sort of like, can you look at, because it's like my wife can't hear it anymore, you know? Yeah. Like, go walk into the kitchen. It's like, would this character say that? She's like, I don't know, like, what are you talking about? So I have to, I I I just feel like you have to, I guess you, you learn to sort of like mute your ego a little bit mm-hmm. and just sort of like, let o let other, like, sometimes you just have to talk it out and, and that's what a partner was for, you know. Yeah. but I don't even know if I answered your question. That'sMichael Jamin:Okay. We're just, we're we're chatting. What about, what about advice for aspiring writers? What do you, what do you tell them? Either about the craft or about the business?Jonathan Fener:I mean, to get in nowMichael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Fener:I think that starting out the, the best thing about now to me mm-hmm. , is that it seemed like in the beginning when we started, it was really all about like, what's the speck of the big show.Michael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. ,Jonathan Fener:Which there's a, there's an art to that, you know, beca

Emily Cutler is a writer/producer known for Community, A.P. Bio, Fresh off the Boat, and The Michael J. Fox Show. Join Michael Jamin and Emily Cutler as they dive into her history as a stand-up comedian, improv actor, writer, and Co-Executive Producer.Show NotesEmily Cutler on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0193915/Emily Cutler on Twitter - https://twitter.com/cutleremilyFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated TranscriptsEmily Cutler (00:00:00):You have to start from a place of, I'm really passionate about this. You know, a lot of times before a season when you go to sell something, you'll say, what are they looking for? Well, this network is looking for family, and this one wants workplace, and this one wants, you know, and so you try to go, okay, well, what do I ha? But you still have to come from some seed of something that makes you giggle or something that inspires you, or it's just gonna be flat, it's not gonna be good or original.Michael Jamin (00:00:25):You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Michael Jamin (00:00:33):Hello everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I got another fantastic guest today. I'm starting to think that my listeners don't deserve me because I have so many great people on this podcast. And my next guest is no exception. Emily Cutler, all Bribery. Welcome. So let me go through your,Emily Cutler (00:00:52):Hello,Michael Jamin (00:00:53):Let me go through you from your credit so people know who you are. Just to refresh their me my memory. Okay. As well as you know, the people listening. So Emily has written for, I'm gonna just blow through some of your credits. They're really pretty impressive. Zoe. we we're gonna start with the start with the beginning. Zoe Duncan, Jack and Jane. Rude Awakening. Good Girls. Don't, I don't know how you got that one. Less than Perfect. That's a pretty good, pretty good show. Love Inc. Blue Collar tv, far Poolers, community Free Agents, atory, how to Live with Your Parents. The Michael J. Fox Show growing up, Fisher The Odd Couple. This is the one with Jack Klugman. No, not that one.Emily Cutler (00:01:35):? No. Tony Randall. It was, yeah. Yes, it wasMichael Jamin (00:01:39):AP Bio Bio and Fresh Off the Boat. You have a lot of, do you take your jobs based on the location of, you have a lot of jobs at with locations in them?Emily Cutler (00:01:49):No. And Oh, I thought you meant the location of where you're actually doing the writing in thatMichael Jamin (00:01:54):Case. Oh, no, we all do that. Emily Cutler (00:01:56):Closer to my house. Yeah.Michael Jamin (00:01:58):Yeah. Close to your house. So, man, thank you so much, Emily. Let's just start at the beginning, because you started as actually as an actor and you were, you were a local celebrity in la That's when I first found out about you. You were the host of Nine LineEmily Cutler (00:02:12):.Michael Jamin (00:02:13):You were started as aEmily Cutler (00:02:14):Comic Nine Line, which was a, a tiny ridiculous little show, interstitial show that came on between the Mory PO Show and the Jerry Springer show. I popped in and did a little terrible comedy,Michael Jamin (00:02:25):But we all knew about you. And you, so you started as a standup, right?Emily Cutler (00:02:29):A little bit. I was a very, I dated a lot of standups, so I did a tiny bit of standup, but I spent a lot of time in the clubs watching standups. Yes.Michael Jamin (00:02:38):But then how would you,Emily Cutler (00:02:39):About myself,Michael Jamin (00:02:40):So that, what was your goal then? Like when you moved out to la what was your goal? Did be a writer, an actor, or what? Standup No,Emily Cutler (00:02:46):Acting. Acting. I was an actor. I was on a, you may have seen me as the driving instructor on Beverly Hills. 9 0 2 10, the firstMichael Jamin (00:02:54):One. Now I, now I know the first one of those. The first one, . And then what made you decide to transition to, to writing?Emily Cutler (00:03:02):Well, it was really one of those things where I've, I've written all my life, I've written little books and songs and movies, just constantly writing. And so I decided I'll just write in my downtime from acting mm-hmm. . And as you know, you have an enormous amount of downtime from acting. So it, it, the writing just sort of took off and the acting was kind of, you know, it was not as fun. So I kept with the writing. Oh,Michael Jamin (00:03:26):Because the, the acting wasn't as fun in terms of waiting to get a job, you mean, or no. Did you Yes. What was notEmily Cutler (00:03:32):Fun? Going years without a job? Yes.Michael Jamin (00:03:34):Or, or was it just like being, like, is, was the acting not fun or like, the process of getting jobs not fun?Emily Cutler (00:03:41):The process of getting jobs. Right. The acting is great. I mean, it's just the, the business of acting is, you know, not for the faint of heart. And I was writing and it seemed to be taking off, and I enjoyed it so much. I figured why not do that? And then I don't have to lose, you know, 30 pounds and go to auditions in horrible heat andMichael Jamin (00:04:03):All that kinda stuff. Yeah. Came the ass. And then how did you, so how did you transition to getting your first gig? Like how did that work?Emily Cutler (00:04:09):I was doing a show, an improv show called The Dysfunctional Show at a little theater in Hollywood. AndMichael Jamin (00:04:17):Producers with aEmily Cutler (00:04:17):Comedy show and asked me and one other person Yeah. Okay. In, in in Hollywood and, and produced a lot of people came to see it. It was a very funny show. And they, they said, would you and one other guy who was the friend of mine in the show, like to write a pilot Oh, wow. For Brandon Tartikoff. Years and years ago, it was a, a funny pilot spoofing spoofing. It, it's about a, a network news host that, like a, a Ted Bull who falls on hard times and winds up getting a job in a small town. It's the only job he can get. And so and, and the lead in that actually was Matthew Perry's father, John Bennett Perry.Michael Jamin (00:04:59):Wait, so a little bit, I'm sorry. So they actually produced thisEmily Cutler (00:05:01):Pilot? Yeah, they made the pilot. It was a lot of comedians. It was very it wasn't like a, like a, it was more, it was a comedy sketch sort of show. It wasn't a sitcom or anything like that. And then from there, I wrote a movie for Jason Alexander, who I had met in the Dysfunctional show, which didn't end up getting made, but I got an agent from that. So it was a lot of sort of acting moments. This is pretty impressive. That led me into,Michael Jamin (00:05:34):So even, how did you get these industry types to sh I think so to show up to your, to your, you know, show your little, what was like a, it was like a 99 se seaEmily Cutler (00:05:41):Theater. It was a, it was a really tiny show, but all the people in it, it was Improvd, it was basically on a huge show. But Improvd and we were making fun of talk shows. And so a lot of comedians who were in the clubs would just stop by because it's, you know, for an hour and play a character on a panel. And you know, let's see. It was Bob Odenkirk, David Cross, Warren Hutcherson, Brian Regan. I mean, there was a, just a ton of comics who showed up to do this. Wow. And I think Jason Alexander knew someone in the show, and he was, he was a guest in the show. It was different every week cuz it was like a talk show. So different subject every week. And then you'd kind of get a character and then it was just improvd from there.Michael Jamin (00:06:22):See, you just made a really good case.Emily Cutler (00:06:24):It was just good exposure.Michael Jamin (00:06:26):It's because people ask me all the time, all, and I mean this, I know it sounds like I'm saying this, but like, like, do I have to move to Hollywood to make it in Hollywood? And like, you just made a really good case for like Yeah. Because this is where it is. You know, you have to put yourself out there. Or do you disagree now?Emily Cutler (00:06:42):And I think that as a, as a writer, no, I completely agree. I think you have to be, it doesn't mean if you're a film writer and you wanna write a film in some other part of the country, eventually you will have to come here to have meetings or, I mean, now with Zoom, maybe it's not as difficult, but you just wanna be around people. You wanna meet people that can either help you or advise you or influence you in some positive way. And so I would say if you're really serious about writing for TV and film, you should think about coming to LA for a while. Maybe not forever, but for a while.Michael Jamin (00:07:15):Right. For sure. And yeah. And you, now you, so you've been here, you've been here, what, when you right after college, you moved, you moved here, right? Or did you do something before?Emily Cutler (00:07:22):Oh my God, I, no, I went to New York first. I went to New York cuz I was gonna be a serious theater actress. Really? And then I quickly gave that up and, and came toMichael Jamin (00:07:30):LA Yeah. But why, what was that like?Emily Cutler (00:07:32):Well, I came to act, I was kind of like theaters, tons of people in LA and I wound up getting an agent, a musical agent. I had to sting for them. And they said, come out to la we need funny women. Yeah. And so I came out and then just never left.Michael Jamin (00:07:50):And funny women are in demand. I'mEmily Cutler (00:07:51):Contemplating leaving there, there are funny women. I heard there weren't any Yes.Michael Jamin (00:07:57):No, but I'm saying they're, they're in demand. Sar I mean, like, if you're a funny woman, you'll work, you'll, you know, show yourself.Emily Cutler (00:08:03):There are a lot of fu funny women. There are a lot of funny women who don't work. They're funny women who do work, but they're an enormous amount of funny women. Yes.Michael Jamin (00:08:11):Yeah. And so, wait, did you, at some point, were you joking? Did you want to turn around and and leave LAEmily Cutler (00:08:16):No, I'm, I'm thinking about that now because A, we have a strike coming and b I wanna live in an enormous house with just a staff of people to wait on me hand in foot. So I figure I'll go to a small town and just buy a small town. AndMichael Jamin (00:08:31):Where would you go, how that goes? I know you're, I know you're, I know you're being facetious, but where, I don'tEmily Cutler (00:08:36):Know. That's why I never go anywhere. I, you don't, I do, I think, you know, after my kids to college, where could I settle down that wouldn't be as, you know, wouldn't be a big city. And I'd have my neighbors and I would be close friends and we'd all get together at barbecue and walk down to a beach and there'd be no crime and all of this. And then I realized there isn't that place. Or if there is, I don't know what it is.Michael Jamin (00:09:03):So that's lazy. You're not going any further than that. You're not really isEmily Cutler (00:09:06):Too lazy. Cause then I'd have to move. I'd have to call people.Michael Jamin (00:09:09):I'm, I'm trying to figure out. No,Emily Cutler (00:09:11):I, I I, I, I, I don't need, I don't think I'm leaving my house. Oh, okay. No, I'm not serious. I, I, I could leave Uhhuh , but it would require paperwork and phone calls and faxing and, you know, does your husband,Michael Jamin (00:09:25):Does your husband feel the sameEmily Cutler (00:09:26):Way talking to others? And I just can't do any of that.Michael Jamin (00:09:29):Does your husband feel the same way? MyEmily Cutler (00:09:30):Husband was born and Ray will never, never leave.Michael Jamin (00:09:35):He'll never leave forever. Right. So he loves it here. Okay. Okay. Now, but you're in Angelo now you're saying I,Emily Cutler (00:09:40):I'm seriously doubting itMichael Jamin (00:09:42):Now. I wanna know I guess of all your credits, maybe the, maybe the highest, you've had some high profile shows, but maybe the most beloved one is community. What do you think is that the one people wanna know about?Emily Cutler (00:09:52):Probably tell us. People are obsessed with that show and they're still obsessed much. I mean, I know it's airing now. It was on Netflix for a while. I wonder if it's still on Netflix. I and it's on the planes. It's on people are, are very we have great fans for community. Yeah. AndMichael Jamin (00:10:09):What was it like working on that show? Because it seems really hard. So it's a hard show to write for. It seems.Emily Cutler (00:10:14):It was a wonderful and nightmarish pool of madness and joy. It was Why the best of times and the worst of times. Well, the show creatively was absolutely wonderful. There was a lot of freedom. The characters were great, the actors were great. The writers were great. Dan Harmon, who was running the show was incredibly brilliant and interesting and strange. The hours were insane. And I had two young, young children at the time, and I was often there overnight. You know, I had my toothbrush and blankets in an office. So that wasn't ideal. if you're a parent or if you have a, a life outside of the show.Michael Jamin (00:10:58):But why was it, what, what was, was he taught? Who was someone tossing on scripts? Were they, what was, why was it so late?Emily Cutler (00:11:05):Have you been on, have you not been on a show where you've had hours like that?Michael Jamin (00:11:09):It's notEmily Cutler (00:11:10):YourMichael Jamin (00:11:11):Not real, like just shoot me. We would work. We had a couple nights where we worked till four in the morning. But that's only cuz like, there was something blew up. There was a script was, you know, thrown out. Right? OfEmily Cutler (00:11:19):Course. OfMichael Jamin (00:11:20):Course. But it wasn't a regular day and it'sEmily Cutler (00:11:21):Normal to stay late sometimes. This was, I think that not all artists are good at running a show are good at time management and managing. I think that's a different skillset. And Dan Harmon was really brilliant at writing and creating and everything except time management and not overthinking things and really understanding to respect other people's time. I think you would say that as well. Yes. SeeMichael Jamin (00:11:55):That's the thing.Emily Cutler (00:11:56):You're kinda in his mind. You're in the showrunner's mind when you're on a show. And if it's really messy in there and disorganized Yeah. The show will be too.Michael Jamin (00:12:05):People don't realize that is that no one becomes a, a commentator cuz they want go into management. They become comment commenters so they don't have to go into management. Yes. Then they get a job where they're running, they're managing people and it's a different skillset. AndEmily Cutler (00:12:18):Yes. And a lot of people, I have talked to writers when I say, do you want your own show? They say, I wanna write my own show and I wanna see it happen. But the thought of having to do that massive amount of work mm-hmm. in meetings and executives and storyboards. It's just, it's can be really overwhelming. It's not the writing part that you signed up for. It's a whole different thing.Michael Jamin (00:12:39):Even the writing part is a i people say I wanna be a show winner. You're saying that only cuz you don't know what a show winner does. Right. You know? Yeah. It's it's funny, I had Steven Kel on a while ago. He kind of said the same thing. He was like, you know, it's, you're, it's tankless comes the show. It's, and yeah. Yeah. I we were, same thing when we were running shows before we started running shows. It's like, I could do this and then you do it like, oh my god, what did I sign up for?Emily Cutler (00:13:04):And why do I want to do this? The fun part is being in the writer's room and creating things. And I don't wanna be, you knowMichael Jamin (00:13:10):Yeah. FiguringEmily Cutler (00:13:10):Out what type of ice cube you're gonna use in this scene. I mean, there's, you know, some people love that, but it is a different, I wouldn't say that writers necessarily naturally have that skillset.Michael Jamin (00:13:22):Yeah. And, and so, okay. So that's a good enough reason to be, that's bad for morale too. Yes. Especially when you got two kids. You wanna be home, you don't wanna live there.Emily Cutler (00:13:32):But also, if it's a show I created, I'm much more likely to wanna get into the minutiae of things and do that job. I, I never understand what a showrunner takes over a show that they didn't create. Mm-Hmm. , maybe they don't even love the show, but they take the job and just do such a massive amount of work for something that's not reallyMichael Jamin (00:13:50):Yeah.Emily Cutler (00:13:51):Giving them the joy or satisfaction of their own creation.Michael Jamin (00:13:55):And then what then was like maybe your favorite show that you just loved every second of being on and often it's not the most often, it's not the show, the people we even heard of.Emily Cutler (00:14:05):No, I I had a phenomenal time writing for Blue Collar tv, which was a sketch comedy show for Jeff Foxworthy and Bill Engal and Larry the cable guy. Right. all whose politics I do not agree with. However writing for it, it was just hilarious. I mean, it's wonderful if you, if you enjoy writing sketches, greatest group of people. We were all starting out and never done anything before. And we, we got to go down to Atlanta and produce it and see what people responded to and what they didn't. Different kinds of comedy. And it was just fun and silly. It was silly. We got to be silly, you know, all day.Michael Jamin (00:14:44):But then tell me about writing than sketches because you need a whole separate packet you didn't make. Yes. It's a whole different skillset. Like,Emily Cutler (00:14:51):It's completely different. But I came up doing that as an actor with friends. We did a lot of sketch comedy and we wrote for sketch comedy groups. So that was in my wheelhouse. And also, it's not as, it's not as daunting. It's not 30 pages, it's not 50 pages. It's like, Hey, I just have to write three funny pages that have a beginning, middle, and an end. I can do that. You know, but it's,Michael Jamin (00:15:13):When you're, it's all premise. You have to come up with a premise that's funny on its own. The, the one liner has to be, and, and then you have to establish these characters in 30, not even, whatever, 15 seconds and then go, you know. And alsoEmily Cutler (00:15:26):I'm kind of picky. Like, I don't like sketches that just ramble. Like when you have a funny character that has some kind of catchphrase mm-hmm. , it's not enough of a sketch for me to just have that funny character say that catchphrase over and over and everyone like, like I really do believe in building a little story and having it end in a satisfying way. So that, that is challenging. DoMichael Jamin (00:15:45):You do any sketch writing still?Emily Cutler (00:15:48):Oh God, I haven't done it in years.Michael Jamin (00:15:50):No, I haven't done it in years. So what is, is it your main Yeah. Narrative sitcoms. Are you, are you doing dramas as well? What are you doing?Emily Cutler (00:15:57):No, mostly sitcoms. A lot of single camera half hours. Mm-Hmm. .Michael Jamin (00:16:03):Do you prefer that for any reason?Emily Cutler (00:16:06):I always multi camera. I, I always prefer the one. I'm not doing . Yes. Whichever one I'm doing. I say, well, it's just cuz I'm doing this kind. I should go back to multi cams cuz I love them. And then I work on Multicam and go, why am I doing this? I should be writing a single cam.Michael Jamin (00:16:18):Yeah. Yeah. I think it's so funny. I mean, I feel the same exact way and I think we all do. I think it's like, eh, you know, when I, same thing with animation, I'd rather do live action. Whatever you're not doing is what you .Emily Cutler (00:16:29):I've never done animation though. I'm almost scared of it because it's so you can do so much. There's no, not as much structure. You can kind of just think outside the box, which I think is wonderful. But I'm also terrified.Michael Jamin (00:16:41):Take comfort knowing that it's not Writer's Guild. So , it's never covered by the Writer's Guild. So you'll make less money.Emily Cutler (00:16:48):So, so Simpsons and Family Guy, those shows must be, wellMichael Jamin (00:16:52):Simpsons and King of the Hill are, but the King of Hill didn't start as an writer's guild. But now whenever you sign, we've sold a bunch of animated shows and it's never writer. They, it's like it's a deal breaker. Nope. It's Aii. And so that'sEmily Cutler (00:17:07):So crazy because it's so much writing and so much work mm-hmm. Michael Jamin (00:17:10):Because,Emily Cutler (00:17:11):And so much thought goes into itMichael Jamin (00:17:12):Seems illegal to me because they can, the studios get to choose which guild, which you can be covered by Aii or Writers Guild. And you always choose writers guild, but they say II cuz you, they can pay you left. It's like, well how is that legal? I don't understand what,Emily Cutler (00:17:24):That doesn't seem fair. Yeah. You know what we should do Michael? We should go on strike.Michael Jamin (00:17:28):When, how about May 1st? What when you are you, I guess you're doing a lot of development now. Is that what you're, is that what your focus is on? What are you Yes. What are you up to? Yeah,Emily Cutler (00:17:37):I'm doing a some pilots. I have a pilot that I wrote with another person that's floating around. I have a pilot I just finished that's floating around. I have a pilot I'm supposed to do for that I haven't even pitched yet. And we're supposed to go on strike soon, soMichael Jamin (00:17:53):Sit backwards. Really. But when you say floating around, you mean you've written the script first and you're trying to sell it or what?Emily Cutler (00:17:58):Yes.Michael Jamin (00:17:59):Yes. And you like, you like doing that because usually we don'tEmily Cutler (00:18:01):Do that. Oh, the two that are floating around, then I have some that I'm supervising. No, I don't like doing that. It depends on if I have a, an idea that I feel I need to execute for someone to really get what it is, then I'll write it myself. But I'd much rather gee, I don't know, be paid to write it.Michael Jamin (00:18:20):So write to pitch it. Yes. And then you're supervis cuz even supervising. I'm not crazy about doing, but you're doing. ItEmily Cutler (00:18:25):Depends. I only supervise if it's a project that comes to me that I really, really love and can't say no to. Other than that I don't, I get offered a lot of jobs of, well you supervise this show about a young, you know, Chinese woman who has a dumpling factory and whatever crazy thing I get. Unless it's something that I go, that's hilarious, I wanna be a part of it. I just don't do it.Michael Jamin (00:18:51):And who, how are these coming to you through your agent?Emily Cutler (00:18:54):Random ways. Yeah. They kind of float to me through my agent or, or a writer will call me and say, I'm working on something. Would you be willing to supervise? You know, stuff like that.Michael Jamin (00:19:02):Oh, like a writer that you've, a young writer you've worked with in the past, you mean? Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Interesting, interesting. Yeah, because yeah, that's the thing. Go taking an idea out rather take the idea out than than, yeah. It's hard. It's hard out there.Emily Cutler (00:19:17):It is hard. And the thing is, and I it's, it's hard for writers who are, you know, a a lot are very introverted, is you have to sell something in a room to people mm-hmm. , which means you have to kind of come out of your shell a little bit and do a performance, a stale. And again, that's another skillset that I imagine as a lot of writers have to learn, you know. ButMichael Jamin (00:19:43):I imagine as an actor, that part probably comes easy to you.Emily Cutler (00:19:45):That is easy to me. And it's fun. I I like doing it. I don't mind doing it. Even when you get a very bad audience of people just not laughing and staring at you as if you've offended them and they hate you. Uhhuh I don't mind doing that. But there are a lot of writers who just, it's terrifying and they don't like it. And it's a whole new skill they have to learn, you know? Yeah. And be be warned before you move out to LA that if you wanna sell ideas to people, you will become a, a bit of a salesman and have to do a sales pitch. Mm-Hmm. .Michael Jamin (00:20:16):Now I'm skipping around here a little bit cause I have a lot of questions when I ask you, but when you, when you did the odd couple, you were briefing, is that the right word? A a show that's been on, there's been multiple variations of that show. Yes. And so what was that like? You know, actually he worked with yeah. What was that? Gary Marshall with Gary Marshall. He was in the room a lot, a little,Emily Cutler (00:20:36):He came to every taping. He came to the room for a while and then, I mean, he would just show up whenever he felt like it. But I think he came to every taping. He was wonderful. It was fascinating to sit with him and, and hear about his experiences because he's, well, so he would sit Hollywood, he would sitMichael Jamin (00:20:53):In the writer'sEmily Cutler (00:20:53):Room. Yeah. Yeah. And every time I saw him I would give him a kiss on the cheek. But I gave him a kiss every time I felt it was something I had to do.Michael Jamin (00:21:01):I mean, we grew up with all those shows. I mean, yes. I mean, was that, I mean, that's just such an honor, but did he give notes or was he just like, ah, holding courtEmily Cutler (00:21:10):A little bit of giving? No, he took it seriously. He wasn't there just for the hell of it. He, he took it seriously and he listened to all the jokes and he commented on things. But he didn't he didn't get in the way of anything. He wasn't in the writer's room that much. But he would send in jokes sometimes for scripts that he'd read, he'd sendMichael Jamin (00:21:29):In his pictures. Oh, really? Yeah. What's, what kind of story do you remember? Like what kind of stories? What was it like when he was in the room?Emily Cutler (00:21:36):His stories were a little more broad. They were of a different time. Sometimes it would be like a monkey gets loose in the apartment and both guys have to go and find who's gonna take the monkey. And you're like, well, maybe not that.Michael Jamin (00:21:49):But how do you say no to him? How do you say no to Gary Marshall? When did he,Emily Cutler (00:21:52):I don't think you do. I think you just say That's interesting. Yeah. We were thinking about this and he was very collaborative. Uhhuh . I mean, he didn't, there was no ego there that I saw. He was just happy to be there and be around writers and have the odd couple coming alive yet again.Michael Jamin (00:22:07):But, but I actually, what I really meant was like, did he, he must have told stories from his past, like, you know, working with I dunno, the Fonz or whatever.Emily Cutler (00:22:15):. Yes. And he also gave, this was a lesson I took from him that I will never forget. He said, don't make your work your life. Have a life uhhuh and work. And don't just work. Don't just, did you read,Michael Jamin (00:22:29):Did you read his book? Wake Me When It's funny.Emily Cutler (00:22:32):I remember. No, I never did. I never did. Oh,Michael Jamin (00:22:34):I remember reading that just before I was breaking into the business and it was just so, it was like, ah, I wanna work in that business. Like, it makes you wanna work in Hollywood. So, so it's like lovely. Yeah. But he tells a story, I think it was on the, the odd couple. They couldn't make a scene funny. Like he was like, it is missing something. So like, they give, like, I think the solution I'm getting, I'm sure I'm getting this, the character wrong, but it was like they, they gave Felix a big spoon or something, . He was like, give him a big spoon. And then it was funny.Emily Cutler (00:23:01):And, and also well yes, I think he told that story in the room too. give someone a prop. And often I think we did maybe give Matthew Perry a prop here and there to Uhhuh give him something to do. , didMichael Jamin (00:23:13):You guys watch, I mean we all saw the odd couple, but did you go back through old episodes and go, you know what, we can,Emily Cutler (00:23:19):We can do this again. I'd seen a lot of them. I'd seen a lot of them. I mean the premise is really about the two guys. About two mis mismatched roommates and how they get along in the world. So yeah, you can do that a variety of different ways. I was surprised, you know, when Matthew Perry wanted to play Oscar because I had sort of seen him in ay way. Yeah. But he wanted to playMichael Jamin (00:23:40):Oscar. Maybe that's why. And so what was it like working with him off of friends when he was at this biggest star in the, in the world?Emily Cutler (00:23:46):No, he wasn't right off of friends. Many, many years had gone by.Michael Jamin (00:23:50):Oh, was it?Emily Cutler (00:23:51):It was a learning experience. Oh. you know I've also worked with Chevy Chase. Yes. And these wereMichael Jamin (00:24:03):Difficult to have actors, , what were the subjects?Emily Cutler (00:24:07):These are guys who have super, super talented, amazing comic timing. Mm-Hmm. But maybe have not taken the best care of themselves so they're not able to do what they once were able to do. So that is always sad when you see that happen. And it was just challenging to work with Matthew cuz he was not in the best at his best. He, I mean at hisMichael Jamin (00:24:30):Best he would probably, he's probably come out and said that a million times over since then. He saidEmily Cutler (00:24:34):That in his book. He apologized to the odd couple writers in his book.Michael Jamin (00:24:37):Oh, did he? HeEmily Cutler (00:24:38):Did interest. Wow. Because it was kind of, it was a little bit weekend at Bernie's.Michael Jamin (00:24:42):Yeah.Emily Cutler (00:24:43):So .Michael Jamin (00:24:44):Oh wow. JustEmily Cutler (00:24:45):Keeping him, him going.Michael Jamin (00:24:47):And he was an executive producer on the show.Emily Cutler (00:24:49):He was.Michael Jamin (00:24:50):Yes. A lot of people don't understand and that, and I, and I think you can count me as one of them. Like what more control, when an actor is an executive producer, they have more control, but to be honest, they have the same amount of control. Even when they're not, you can't force them to say something.Emily Cutler (00:25:05):Right.Michael Jamin (00:25:07):So you, you explain it to me.Emily Cutler (00:25:09):I also don't, when a, when an actor is an executive producer, it means they can see the cuts. Right. And they can say, cut, cut this joke or put this in and Right. Again, I don't know. That's that their strongest skillset. Right. Their, so I never think it's super helpful. There are some that are very smart and that mm-hmm. But I generally would leave that to the people who know more about that and leave the acting to the actors. Yeah. Generally would be my preference.Michael Jamin (00:25:35):Have you done, have you directed or have you, do you aspire to direct at all?Emily Cutler (00:25:39):Not at all. It's the strangest thing. Cuz I think I'm a bossy person. Uhhuh. . And I do, when I'm on set, know exactly what I want, but I'm not I don't think I'm visual enough to know exactly what a shot should look like. And then this, I just like the acting. I like working with the actors. That's what I like to do. So camera stuff is not myMichael Jamin (00:26:01):So you do that a lot. Are you often the writer on set?Emily Cutler (00:26:04):Yes. I enjoy being the writer on set. I feel like I can speak the language of an actor. So it's yes, and it's fun. And there's just a great sense of camaraderie and it's nice to get out of the writer's room and be on a set.Michael Jamin (00:26:18):But are you doing that for shows that that, are you doing that for shows that even that you don't write, you know, you're not the, the writer of that show? Or are you usually assigned? No,Emily Cutler (00:26:26):No, no. I have been assigned to set and I have mentored younger writers who've never been on a set before mm-hmm. . which is a really good thing to do because you don't wanna throw a younger writer on a set when they have no idea what they're doing. But you also wanna make sure that that younger writer is on a set so that they are learning and can move up the ladder really knowing what they'reMichael Jamin (00:26:44):Doing. And that brings us to the writer's strike, because that's not really happening. It's from where I'm sitting, it's not really happening anymore because these ri young writers for the mo well, I don't know, I haven't done a network show in so long, but on, on these cable, these low budget shows that I'm on, often you're just working on pre-production and then you, you're done. And so the writers aren't coming to set at all. There's, you know, no one's.Emily Cutler (00:27:06):And what's happening is writers are moving up. In my day you had to be a staff writer for a very long time. Mm-Hmm. before you got bumped up. I don't know if people know, but on a staff there are different levels. And each level has different job requirements. And what's happening is a staff writer will come in and write for a season and then move up so quickly. Mm-Hmm. maybe bump up a few levels to a producer, and then they're put on a set without having any idea what to do or what each person on the set does or what their role is. Yeah. and it's really important to teach people at the early stages every aspect of a television show. And no, that is not happening very often.Michael Jamin (00:27:50):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Michael Jamin (00:28:14):I see that as being really bad. Maybe you'll feel, I wonder how you feel for, for like, I don't know if there'll be multi-camera shows in the future because you, there's so much learning that you have to do and like, who, who's gonna be, there's no, you know, who, how are they learning this? There are no multi-camera shows anymore. Where, where's the, the pool of talent, you know? Yeah.Emily Cutler (00:28:35):I, I don't, I mean, I do a lot of mentoring through the Guild. You might do that too, where you work with writers. It's a good thing to do. You should do it. Yeah. you mentor younger writers who are new in the Guild, maybe they've had their first job, but that's about it. And you, they can ask you questions. Like, when I started, I didn't have anybody really to ask, what does this mean? Should, what, what does this person do on set? Where am I supposed to be? What, you know, what is the blow to a scene? I didn't know any of that stuff. Yeah. So I, I I kind of help them and give them a safe place to ask these questions, which is a, a it's great. It reminds me of all this stuff. Yeah. And and I get to be around fresh young hopefuls. So it's, it's a great thing to do. You know,Michael Jamin (00:29:21):You know, I remember one of the first times on set, you know, they give you the big director chair to sit and your name's in it. And then I remember like dragging it to the next shot and I got such dirty looks. Yes. Like, you don't touch that chair. That's a union job. . Yes. Like, that's a, all you do isEmily Cutler (00:29:36):To think, you feel like I don't belong here. What am I doing? I don't understand anything. You just nod lot and hope that no one will ask anything of you. But yeah, it's much kinder to send people to set feeling prepared and feeling like they have something to contribute instead of them just being terrified the entire time.Michael Jamin (00:29:52):So you may have already answered this question then. Like, how do you see the, how has the industry changed from your point of view since you've been in it?Emily Cutler (00:30:02):Well, it's changed a lot in, I mean, we're striking for certain reasons. Rooms are getting much smaller mm-hmm. it seems like there's more product out there, but for some reason jobs are hard to get mm-hmm. and there are sort of mandates on shows and mm-hmm. and there are fewer writers and there's shorter production time. Writers move up faster. That is something that happens. You don't have to be a staff writer for a long time before you move up the ladder. And I think that's, butMichael Jamin (00:30:33):I don't think that's a good thing, to be honest.Emily Cutler (00:30:34):I don't think that's a good thing. Okay. I, I don't, I don't know that you ha I don't believe in staff writers not getting paid for a script. Right. I think that's silly because they are writing and creating a product. They should be paid for it. Mm-Hmm. . But I do think that before you're bumped up another level, you should really have a lot of experience and know what's gonna be required at that second level and be able to deliver that.Michael Jamin (00:30:56):I actually think that that writers, I believe that was the guild's idea to protect young writers. And I think it failed actually. Like, I think the intention was if you don't have to pay 'em that way, that way they get to write a script and they learn. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And soEmily Cutler (00:31:11):That was, but they are still writing and some staff writers are just fantastic and write a perfectly terrific script and don't get paid for it. And I always found that. Yeah.Michael Jamin (00:31:19):Odd. Yeah. I I think that was like one of those things that backfired well meaning I could be wrong about that, but anyway, but, so yeah. That's how it's, that's how it's changed. What about selling shows, do you think? How's that changed for you?Emily Cutler (00:31:31):Well now they have, and I've never used one pitch decks where you're doing a whole visual presentation with your pitch. And I don't, I, I don't feel that's necessary. But a lot of studios like that mm-hmm. , it gives them an image in, in their mind of what you're going for. That's not,Michael Jamin (00:31:51):I always felt that was more for drama than spend comedy.Emily Cutler (00:31:56):I I think nowadays people will do it. They'll do it for comedy, they'll do it for drama. They'll, you know, show pictures of actors that they think would be good in the roles. And I don't find it necessary. But,Michael Jamin (00:32:10):And certainly whatever works, working with pods is probably a bigger thing now. Do you than it was like, there was a time you as a writer, you could just sell a TV show. You didn't have to have all these people attached to it to sell a show.Emily Cutler (00:32:22):Yes. And a lot of times when you do that, you, you get a lot of cooks in the kitchen. Mm-Hmm. . So the work that you start out with just starts to morph into something completely different than when you started. And I like, you know, for better or worse, I like a clear vision to a show. Mm-Hmm. where, you know, and I'm sure you've been working a lot in streaming and stuff like that, where it's someone's voice like a Mark Marinn or something, and it actually comes through onto the screen. You don't have to like it. Maybe it's terrible, but it's a clear perspective. And what happens when you have so many cooks in the kitchen is the perspective starts to get watered down. That's one thing that Dan Harmon simply didn't allow on community. He was very ballsy and was just like, this is what we're going to do. And the studio would say, no, no, you can't do that. And he would be like, yeah, okay. This is what we're going to do. So like it or hate it, it made it onto the screen as a singular vision of what that show shouldMichael Jamin (00:33:13):Be. And it shows. But that's so ballsy because there's two things. I think you kind of have to be kind of like a genius level to pull that off,Emily Cutler (00:33:22):Which I think Yes. Which he, which he is,Michael Jamin (00:33:23):He was, but also you have to have this no fucks given. Like, I I, I don't know many writers who would do that. YouEmily Cutler (00:33:29):Have to be a little crazy. Yeah. And he's a lot crazy. So it worked out well for him. He must also kind of, you know, felt like he was smarter than everyone in the room and probably was. Right. Which there are, there are many who think that, who aren't. And he just would talk them in circles and finally they just couldn't take talking anymore. So they let him do his thing. Then they fired him . Right. And they brought him back, which was absolutely insane. I've rarely heard of that happening. Yeah. And, and he just really held firm because he knew what the show was and said, this is what we wanna do, and if you don't wanna do it, let's just not do it. But this is how it's gonna go. And he just doubled down and did it.Michael Jamin (00:34:12):Where did he, what would you, you must know, what was his first job in the business that he, where did he learn from?Emily Cutler (00:34:18):He did a streaming, I think he had a channel, I can't remember what it, what it's called. Oh, people will know. Like Channel 24 or channel something that did a lot of a lot of internet stuff. And then I think his first job was on the Sarah Silverman show back when she, I think it was Comedy Central. I could be more about allMichael Jamin (00:34:37):Of this. Yeah. Sam Sterling did that.Emily Cutler (00:34:39):And they had, they did not get along. I don't think they were the right fit.Michael Jamin (00:34:43):Oh my God.Emily Cutler (00:34:44):And then I, he, I don't know, I think he went, actually went to community college and that community was based on his experienceMichael Jamin (00:34:52):Because I, I think that showrunners kind of, they, they learn how they're gonna do this kind of, they, from the first job they take, their first showrunner is the kind of the person they emulate, you know, and mm-hmm. , that's kinda the school you come out of. And if your first boss was organized, you'll be organized. And, you know,Emily Cutler (00:35:09):Not for me, my first real boss on a sitcom was absolutely out of his mind. And an just, just a, a, a monster human who did everything. I, I just sat there going, this can't be right. This can't be Hollywood. All writers cannot be doing what we were doing, which is sitting on the floor and being screamed out about paint colors for his bathroom. And he was just insane. So I was like, this can't, if this is how everything is run Hollywood, it was on a show called Movie Stars, which was Harry Hamlin's comedic opus and,Michael Jamin (00:35:47):And Wait, do you wanna say who the, who the writer is?Emily Cutler (00:35:49):Yes, I do. His name was We, Wayne Lemon, which already sounds kind of like a serial killer name. It's like a great character name Wayne Lemon. And he, I think he was the son of a Baptist preacher and had no sense of humor and told us that on the first day. He's like, I'm not funny. That's not what I do. I'm not funny. I was like, well, it's great that you're running a comedy then. Oh my God. And we, there were only two writers. He, he didn't want a staff, he wanted two baby writers. We and another writer named Bick Scahill, we had never done it before. And so we sat on the floor and we listened to him fight with his wife. He was really abusive. It was, it was a hilariously weird experience. But I remember thinking, this can't be how every show in Hollywood is run. So I did not learn how to run a show from him. I learned very much what I don't wanna do, which you can also learn from your showrunner.Michael Jamin (00:36:38):But I would've, I'm not joking, I probably would've thought this must be Hollywood. Like, I, I, I, I probably would've felt differently from you. Like, that might've scared me from ever working in Hollywood continuing. Well,Emily Cutler (00:36:49):I was terrified to say anything or ask anyone because you're always afraid when you start out that you're gonna be either discovered as a phony and fired. Yeah. Or you're, you just don't make waves. You don't stand up for yourself at all. Cuz you're like, if I say anything, I'll never work again. So we just sucked it up. But it wasn't until later when I got on a normal staff where people were saying that, I went, oh, okay. . That was not a normal experience.Michael Jamin (00:37:18):At what point, and I really mean this, like at what point in your career did you finally feel like, all right, I know how to do this job because it's not on day one. It's not.Emily Cutler (00:37:28):I'm not, I'm not sure. I I'm not sure I feel that way now. It it, it depends. There are shows that I go in and I feel like I got this. I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm fantastic. And then on the very next show, I feel the complete opposite. Why am I doing this? There's no point. I have no talent I should give up. I think all creative people maybe ride that rollercoaster a little bit of feeling like I've got something to offer. I have nothing to offer really. I mean, I, I bounce back. It depends on the show and it depends on if I really think I can capture the voice of something and do it justice. Like if I went to write on succession tomorrow, I'd probably be a little nervous. I'd be excited to do it. But I might go, God, I hope I live up to this thing. Or I hope I can get into the voices of these characters. And then there are some that it's just natural toMichael Jamin (00:38:18):You, but even in terms of like knowing how to break a story or when you go off on script and you look at that blank page, like, or you're turning in your writing your outline. Like there, there must have been a moment where you're like, okay, I think I know how to do this. Right. I mean, cuz like in the, honestly, it took me, it took years and years for me to have, okay, I think I know how to do that.Emily Cutler (00:38:37): Yes. I, I think it took years and years and I think I knew certain things. Well, I can craft a joke, but I don't know, can I, am I really good at story? You know, in meetings people always ask and people ask your agents, are you good at story? Right. Or are you good at jokes and you seem to have to be in one camp or the other. Right. I think is absolutely stupid. But I go back and forth. I mean, I still look at a blank page and, and feel a sense of, you know, excitement and fear at the same time. And am I gonna do this? Am I gonna blow this? And I do a little of both. Right. I've written some scripts and I'm like, wow, this really, I crapped the bed on this one. And Right. Some that I'm like, all right, this is pretty good.Michael Jamin (00:39:21):Do you do any writing that is not for for sale? Like just for yourself or a book or something on the side or anything?Emily Cutler (00:39:28):I draw a lot. So I do that on the side. I used to write songs. I've written some poems. Uhhuh . I'm trying to think of what else I've written. You know, I have a friend who does game shows and I, I help him with game shows a lot cuz that's super fun. And I have no, it's not my job so I don't have to panic and interesting worry about it. Right. Because that's a whole other that's a whole other, you know, crazy world. But that's really fun to doMichael Jamin (00:39:58):Because the minute you put, the minute you're doing it, it's your profession. Things change, you know, likeEmily Cutler (00:40:04):Absolutely.Michael Jamin (00:40:05):Right. Well what's your take on that?Emily Cutler (00:40:06):Well, I mean that's why I write some pilots myself that I'm not gonna sell is cuz I come up with an idea that brings me some level of joy or that I feel I have a handle on. Mm-Hmm. and have that feeling like you're talking about I can do this. Well if I can really do this, I should sit down and do it. And you know, it, it turns out well or it doesn't. But I do that for myself. Yes. Do I hope I'll sell it. Sure. Why, why wouldn't I? But I just get it out of myself. Right. Because it's a, an idea in my head. Just get it on paper if youMichael Jamin (00:40:36):Can, just to remind yourself why you like writing.Emily Cutler (00:40:40):Yes.Michael Jamin (00:40:40):Right. Have you saw Adam? Don't, I'm trying to remember. We've, we've written a, a handful of pilots on spec. I don't think we've sold any. I think the ones we've sold are always saw on pitches. Are you able to sell specs or are they just writing samples?Emily Cutler (00:40:55):No, it's always, it's always been really pitches. I can't think of a script I've sold, I sold a movie but never never on spec. On spec. Yeah.Michael Jamin (00:41:06):Sold them. How'd that go? What was that?Emily Cutler (00:41:09):, it was called Suddenly Yours. It was a test to see if I could write a romantic, a cheesy romantic comedy back when they made them like those great kind of formulaic mm-hmm romantic comedies that you see, you know, two of a year. And it got bought and then just nothing happened to it. It died because then Jennifer Lopez had a movie called Maiden Manhattan that was basically the same thing. And so, so funny that got made.Michael Jamin (00:41:32):That's so, cuz we did, we sold a movie on spec though. It was called Only Child. And then that got killed because they had a movie in development called Middle Child . And I dunnoEmily Cutler (00:41:43):If they had anything, that's all it changed. OfMichael Jamin (00:41:44):Course not. Other than the word child.Emily Cutler (00:41:46):Yes. My god. It's a, another movie with child in the title. We must only have one.Michael Jamin (00:41:51):But you must have had to do some rewrites on, but after you sold it, they probably wanted rewrites from you now.Emily Cutler (00:41:56):Yes. And I got rewritten by another writer too, Uhhuh, who changed it into something totally different. It was, it was like a fascinating thing to see. It became this different creature, this completely different entity with like little bits of my script in it.Michael Jamin (00:42:10):But because sometimes I hear more often than that people are like, I wanna, I wanna write movies. I'm like, what you YouTube superhero movies? Yeah. What what? Yeah. TvEmily Cutler (00:42:19):TV is movies now. There are no more movies for the most part. It's, you know, big blockbuster superhero movies. There are few little ones and a few ones like, you know, maybe a Matt Damon movie that will squeeze in, but really television's where it, where it's at. Right. With streaming and everything.Michael Jamin (00:42:36):Did you, but did you even, did you even enjoy the process of writing movies?Emily Cutler (00:42:41):I did.Michael Jamin (00:42:42):You did? I did. I did.Emily Cutler (00:42:43):But I was, I was younger and didn't know anything. It's great when you don't know anything and when you don't know what, how the business is structured and you just come from a creative place and put something on paper that brings you joy. Right. That's great. And as soon as you start getting paid for it and other people get involved, you can still have joy but it's a different kind. It's, it's not pure, you know, it's,Michael Jamin (00:43:08):Well the reason why I see it, cuz like when you, when you get a note on a TV script, all right. Even if it's a giant rewrite, it's still, it's, it's 30 minutes of television or whatever. 22 minutes of television. Yeah. If you could do a note on a, on a movie and maybe it's a free rewrite that you have to do, talk about 90 minute movie. That's a, like that that's a lot ofEmily Cutler (00:43:25):Work. Yes. That's a lot. And a string will, a string will get pulled. That seems like nothing to the person giving the note. But that to you completely unravels theMichael Jamin (00:43:33):Entire thing. Everything right? Yes. I was like, I don't know why, I don't know. I dunno why people wanna write movies so badly. I think it like be just an ego thing.Emily Cutler (00:43:41):Yes. There are a lot of pages to a movie so it is daunting. But again, if you have an idea inside of you and you can see where it's going and it just sort of comes out of you, it doesn't feel like work. It just feels great.Michael Jamin (00:43:54):No, obviously you mentor people, writers and the writers, young writers in the guild. So that means they've already sold something. They've already steered a a hurdle. Yeah.Emily Cutler (00:44:02):Some of them are doing much better than I am. .Michael Jamin (00:44:04):Oh really? They'reEmily Cutler (00:44:06):Skyrocketing. I'm like, I hope you gimme a job.Michael Jamin (00:44:08):Wow. but so what advice do you have for people who haven't even done gotten into the guild yet?Emily Cutler (00:44:15):Just keep, keep writing and keep, have an original voice and put stuff on paper.Michael Jamin (00:44:20):And where are you getting, where are you looking for your ideas? Where are you getting your ideas from?Emily Cutler (00:44:24):I try and get my ideas from my life or you know, a great way to get ideas. If you have a funny group of friends or a group of friends you hang out with and you're just sitting and shooting the shit with them and making each other laugh. A lot of ideas, great ideas come out of that. A lot of ideas come outta my marriage. I get a lot of ideas from my marriage, from my kids. I never wrote family shows. I was never interested in that kind of stuff. And now that I have a family that sort of inspires me. So look to your life. Look to your extended family. Look to your friends. I have a friend, my current pilot is about an open marriage cuz I have friends who are having an open marriage and I think it's just so hilarious and, and mortifying and ridiculous. And so I'm, I wrote a pilot about it,Michael Jamin (00:45:08):But no, but selling it, they always want to hear like, how are you the only writer who can write this? And so I see that's why I understand you're stealing from your family, but from your friends with the open marriage, even though it'd be fi are you at the mean, are you, are you prepared to answer that question? How are youEmily Cutler (00:45:23):Gonna answer? Yes, I am. How? Well I think you do have to personalize it because I think them having the open marriage caused my husband and I to have a discussion about could we ever, what would it look like? Were this just, you know, middle-aged suburban couple, like what is that gonna look like? So that pilot became about this really unlikely like coupled to do this kind of thing and what transpires because they choose to do it. So it would kind of be like, my husband and I made this decision to do this thing. Here's what happened and how it went wrong.Michael Jamin (00:45:56):Where, so that's interesting because you're prepared. So that's, you're smart. Cuz you knew going into a meeting, that's the question they're gonna ans ask you. And so Yeah. Yes.Emily Cutler (00:46:04):They want something from your personal experience. And the truth is, you can make it from your personal experience however you like. You can, it doesn't have to be, this is exactly my experience. I lived it, it can be, this is how watching somebody else experience else's experience affected me and made me think of this. And I, you can kind of weave your own tail.Michael Jamin (00:46:30):But are you, are you going into, when you come up with your ideas to pitch, are you, is your target to sell it? Are you always thinking like, well what are they buying? What's, what's my version? Or are you just like, this is what I got in the tank.Emily Cutler (00:46:41):I used to be, that's why I wrote that romantic comedy. I wanted to see if I can just, you know, churn out a pile of crap for someone who says we want a pile of crap. Right. And I could, but nothing great comes out of that. And I, I do do that because I panic about money and go, I have to sell this. And they wanna show about a, a flying dog, so I'll stick a flying dog in there. You do sometimes compromise, but nothing great is ever gonna come out of that. You have to start from a place of, I'm really passionate about this. You know, a lot of times before a season when you go to sell something, you'll say, what are they looking for? Mm-Hmm. , well, this network is looking for family and this one wants workplace, and this one wants, you know, and so you try to go, okay, well, what do I ha? But you still have to come from some seed of something that makes you giggle or something that inspires you, or it's just gonna be flat. It's gonna be good or original, IMichael Jamin (00:47:31):Think. And, and how much, when you're not on staff of a show, how, what is your, what does your writing schedule look like?Emily Cutler (00:47:37):Oh, you said writing schedule? Yeah. that, that implies that I'm an organizedMichael Jamin (00:47:43):Or So you don't have one healthyEmily Cutler (00:47:44):Human? No, I'm the worst I'm supposed to be writing. You'll always know when I'm supposed to be writing. My house will be clean. Yeah. I'll be cook cooking something. Maybe I learned to bake bread, you know, I buy a new mascara and I put it like, I just procrastinate. Yeah. Forever. I'm the least organized writer. Again. That is another skillset. Like my friends who went to really tough colleges who are writers, learned how to study, and in learning how to study, they also know how to write and budget their time. I think you're one of them. Didn't you go to some didn't. I went to some fancy some. You went to a fancy school. Okay. Well, I assume if you go to a fancy school like that, or, or grow up learning those skills from your parents or something, you know, how to manage time. I'm the worst at it, so don't be me. Right. Learn how to give yourself a schedule. Be the kind of person who does that. You know, I guess it's like going to the gym. I'm also the person who's like, what's your schedule for working out? Well, sometimes I go for a walk. Sometimes I sit on my ass. I just don't, I'm not as disciplined as I should be.Michael Jamin (00:48:50):Well, it's, I mean, it's easier for me. I have a writing partner, so it's like, we agree, you know? All right. We're, we're agreeing to meet today at 10 o'clock, but, so, andEmily Cutler (00:48:57):You and one pushes the other and goes, come on, we gotta, yeah. No, that would be great. I need to get, I need to get me one of those.Michael Jamin (00:49:04):Well have you written, but you've written projects with people. You have one right now? IEmily Cutler (00:49:06):Have. I've written, yes. And the one that I wrote the right now, one, she was great. She was super disciplined and would let me kind of, you know, I could just be funny and amusing and she'd be the workhorse. Mm-Hmm. . But then I had a partner we wrote some movies together where he was more dysfunctional than I was. Uhhuh . So we just, I'd say, let's not work. Let's go to Starbucks and get lattes instead. And he'd go, great. , . Instead of saying, no, we need to work. We need to, yeah. We were, we were not a good influence.Michael Jamin (00:49:36):And do you have a, what, what's your spot? Do you have a spot that you like to work in? Or are you wherever you take your laptop, wherever.Emily Cutler (00:49:43):It's much better. It's great. When I'm staffed on a show, when I'm staffed on a show, when I'm in the mindset, I like to work in my office there. Even if it's on something else. Cuz it just gets me in the mindset. My house where I have two children who are now teenagers, is like a war zone. It's really hard. I have an open house. There's, it's almost lofty in a way. So there's nowhere to go to hide. Oh. Or, or to work. So I really try and go out or I wait till they're at school and, you know, sneak in a room somewhere. But it's, it's, again, it's not, it's not orderly. I'm not in one place. I'm moving around andMichael Jamin (00:50:20):Interesting.Emily Cutler (00:50:21):Yes. Discipline. Discipline. Disciplined. Get some discipline.Michael Jamin (00:50:26):Then let me ask you one final question. I don't know if, I don't know if you can have an answer to this, but like, what gets you outta bed then? What, what is makes you excited to, for your, I don't know, toEmily Cutler (00:50:35):Run career or in life? Well,Michael Jamin (00:50:37):Let's, let's do both. Let's do both.Emily Cutler (00:50:41):What gets me outta my bed is my children. Mm-Hmm. , because they need to be taken places andMichael Jamin (00:50:48):You're the Uber driver.Emily Cutler (00:50:50):What makes me excited to write again is, and I mean this might just be me because I know a lot of writers like to sit alone in a cabin and write a book. To me that's deathly. For comedy, it's to be around people. Like even just talking to you now, it will spark something and, or make me feel like, you know, it's why people go to the gym because you're surrounded by other people doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing. Mm-Hmm. . And it helps you. So when I'm not on a staff, which is a very collaborative thing where you're in a room with a lot of funny people and I'm on my own, it's not as much fun. It's much harder to get out of bed and motivate. So talking to you is helpful. My husband's really funny, so I'll run ideas around with him. I'll call friends. For me, it helps me to be around other people who are doing what I'm doing, who are funny people. That's what helps me.Michael Jamin (00:51:44):DidEmily Cutler (00:51:44):That get inspired?Michael Jamin (00:51:45):So now that you mentioned it, did, did you find that intimidating in the, in your beginning of your c

Stephen Engel is an Emmy Nominated Showrunner of Dream On. He's known for The Big Bang Theory, A.N.T. Farm, Mad About You, and Just Shoot Me! Join Michael and Stephen as they discuss how Stephen broke in, what it takes to make it in Hollywood, and how he approaches story.Show NotesStephen Engel on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0257145/Stephen Engel on Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_EngelFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMichael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, this is Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. My next guest is a great dude and one of the first dudes I've ever worked with in Hollywood as a TV writer, Mr. Stephen Engel. And his credits are, well, geez man. These guys come fantastic credits. Dream on which you ran. He was the showrunner of Dream on. I did. We're going to talk about that because that was one of my favorite shows. Mad about You. All right. Already. Which you created. You co right? You co-created it orStephen Engel:You created I didn't create it. I ran it though. You ran it? Executive. I supervised an executive who the pilot and then ran the series. Co-ran the series.Michael Jamin:All right. Okay. Just shoot me, which we worked on together. Work With Me. Which that were you cr Wait,Stephen Engel:Did you create That? I created, that I createdMichael Jamin:Now was it work with Me or Work With Me? ItStephen Engel:Was work with me. It was work with me. It was Work with meMichael Jamin:Inside Schwartz, which I know you created and I, yes. Remember I helped out for a day or a day and a half. Yeah. I think I gave you a three hours worth of work in a day and a half.Stephen Engel:It was very appreciated.Michael Jamin:The big house. Yeah. Quintuplets, the war at Home, big Bang Theory. Ant Farm, mighty Med Sigman and the Sea Monsters. Yeah. Yeah. You got a lot of credits, dude. Now I,Stephen Engel:I've been around. I've been around. You'veMichael Jamin:Been around. Tell me, well, let's first begin with the beginning. Okay. Because I know you started as a lawyer.Stephen Engel:That is correct.Michael Jamin:And how long were you lawyering?Stephen Engel:It felt like forever, but it was really only three years maybe. AndMichael Jamin:This is in New York, right out of law school.Stephen Engel:I went to law school, which was a very big mistake. I knew within a month that I'd made a terrible mistake, maybe sooner.Michael Jamin:But why?Stephen Engel:I just got there. I went straight from college. Really? Cause I didn't know what else to do. And back then I didn't know I lived in New York. I grew up in a town away from you. And I didn't know what the TV was. I didn't know anything about. And so I was good at going to school. So I went to law school, I applied, I got into a good law school. I went and I just got there and it was like just stultifying, if that's the word it was. ButMichael Jamin:I thought, what I've heard is that law school is interesting. It's being a lawyer. That's not fun.Stephen Engel:No, I had all through college, I wasn't really do a lot of creative writing. I didn't take creative writing courses. But I was actually looking back at some, I found some of my old economics papers and I reread them and I wrote them as if they were Woody Allen vignettes for the new they, they had these big tee ups that were comedic. And then I would get into the substance, but it was with examples that were funny. And then I would sort of sum them up at the end and my professor would always be like, thank you. After reading 25 papers, there's a pleasure to read something that was entertaining. Oh,Michael Jamin:That's nice. SoStephen Engel:When you get to law school, there was no leeway for that. It was, everything was just completely dry. So intellectually it was kind of interesting, but it was very creatively stifling.Michael Jamin:But as a kid you didn't do any creative. No. You were in the theater, you weren't doing anything like that?Stephen Engel:No, not really. I mean, I was interested in comedy. If I look backwards, I could see all of these things that I did. I did a TV show in college, a game show that I wrote and hosted. I taught a class on 20th century humor and satire. So all of the things were there. In retrospect, you could see a path that was leading to writing comedy. But I didn't know that it was a job. And it wasn't really until law school that I started exploring doing comedy. I started doing standup a little bit. Really?Michael Jamin:I didn't know that.Stephen Engel:Yeah.Michael Jamin:But then how did you realize it was a job? At what point?Stephen Engel:At the time, I had a friend who was doing from college who was doing standup also. We, our girlfriends were best friends and he was a year behind me. He was applied to law school, didn't go and decided he wanted to try to break into writing. And we were both doing standup. And then we said, we just started talking and said we should write a movie. We're like, okay. So we kind of got together one weekend. He was living in la I was in NYU law school. I interviewed for law at law firms in California. So they would fly me out so that we could get together and talk about movie ideas.Michael Jamin:OhStephen Engel:Wow. Yeah. So we came up with an idea. We started writing separately and we knew nothing. We literally knew nothing about writing screenplays. We just had seen movies and you knows. And so we were like started writing this idea that we thought it was really great. We had about 50 pages that we thought were fantastic. So we ended up through, a friend of a friend had lunch with a guy who was a professional screenwriter and he told us, you know, should read this book screenplay by Sid Field, which everyone should read. They're trying to write. So we read this book and we're like, oh no, you're doing it wrong. We dunno anything. And we realized that the 50 pages that we wrote that we thought were gold should have been five pages. Nothing was happening. It was just character development, character development, joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, funny scenes. So we took those 50 pages, compressed them down to five pages and came up with a proper structure. And then we were writing this whole movie. Well, he was pursuing his career and I was a lawyer guy guy's name by the way is Rob Burnett, who we were writing partners. And he went on to great success at David Letterman. And he was executiveMichael Jamin:Producer of le. But was he the head writer or executiveStephen Engel:Producer? Head writer, executive producer. And basically president of Worldwide Pants. And we wrote five movies together for studios, various studios. And ultimately I got a job on Dream On and moved out to LA to write by myself because he was writing a Letterman by himself. And at that point we didn't need to collaborate because we both had individual careers.Michael Jamin:You skipped a step. How did you get hired on Dream On?Stephen Engel:Okay. He and I were writing this movie. I got a law job when I graduated. They, I'd worked there for the summer. They offered me a job when I graduated. And I did the first risky thing I'd ever done in my life. I had never done anything remotely rebellious. And I decided that I was going to take probably the first gap year that anyone ever took. Oh wow. I asked the firm if I could defer my job for a year because I was trying to write. They're like, okay, yeah, no problem. You'll have a job waiting for you in a year. So during that year we kept working on this screenplay and trying to finish it and hone it. And he was still working at Letterman and he at that point had had risen from an intern to work in the talent department to being a writer.So he worked with a woman, we finished a screenplay and he worked with a woman. He shared an office in the talent department with a woman who had been there a long time and decided to leave to become a manager. And her only client at that point was I think Chris Elliot who had been on Letterman. So he knew, she knew that we had this movie because Rob had mentioned, she's like, let me see it when you're done. I'll see if I could do anything with it. So she read it and she sent it out and got us hired to write a movie for 20th Century Fox. Oh wow. A week before I started my law job. And I didn't want to not start the law job because we were a writing team. It was like guild minimum. I thought this may be the only writing job I ever have and I have a pretty high paying law job. Let me try to do both and keep both paths open as long as I can. So I did that essentially for three years. I practiced law while I was writing the entire time writing movies for studios.Michael Jamin:And Wait, and you were practicing law out here in la?Stephen Engel:I was in New York. YouMichael Jamin:Were still in New York?Stephen Engel:I was still in New York. And essentially the law didn't know what I was doing. So I had this double life where I was treating my law job, this very prestigious law job. I was a bartender gig writing movies at the same time. And eventually I couldn't keep all the balls up in the air. The law firm said, you know what? We want you to go, we got a great treat for you. We're going to send you back to law school at night to get your master's in tax law. I'm like, that's fantastic. And I didn't tell them was, now I had two jobs and I was going to school at nightMichael Jamin:And you couldn't turn down. You couldn't turn on their offer.Stephen Engel:I couldn't tell them. And eventually I couldn't do it anymore. I was getting too much work at the law firm. I had school screenplays, deadlines. I just finally kind of went into work one day and just kind of said, I no moss.Michael Jamin:How'd that go over?Stephen Engel:They were like, you know what, this makes so much sense because we were all, you seem really smart and you're really good at what you do, but it just didn't feel like your heart was in it. Yeah, right. So they could tell and it answered a lot of questions for them. So then I quit and decided to write full time panicked that I had just thrown my entire life away. So we ended up getting, because by the way, that manager was Lori David. She went out to marry Lori Leonard who went out to marry Larry David and divorce Larry. David and then produce an Inconvenient Truth as she won an Oscar for that.Michael Jamin:But then she submit you to get, how did you your Hands fund forStephen Engel:Dream On? For Dream on. So I had, eventually what happened was we got a second screenplay deal to write another movie and she said, by the way, I am not allowed to negotiate your deal cause I'm a manager, so I'm going to bring an agent in to negotiate your deal. And we kind of said, well then I guess maybe we should look for an agent rather than just have this guy come in and do the deal and I'm not sure we really need a manager and an agent. Back then you didn't. We ended up getting an agent at icm. Right. A feature agent. And we then did a couple of other projects and eventually I started between drafts of a movie I was writing. Rob by the way, was at this point a writer at Letterman and I quit my law job. So I was like, well if he has a day job while we're writing movies at night, I need my own career as an individual.So I wrote a movie by myself, gave it to my agent, he shopped it around. I got a lot of meetings and stuff. And then I wrote a just a TV spec on the whim between drafts of this movie because I felt like taking a break from it. And I gave that to my feature agent. He gave it to a TV agent at ICM who loved it and started submitting me around. And I ended up meeting with Kaufman and Crane for a show, not Dream On, they had Dream on. And they had another pilot that was going to series on nbc.Michael Jamin:What show was that? AndStephen Engel:It was a show called The Powers that nobody saw. It was with John Forsyth and Right. David Hyde had an amazing cast. So I go to meet with them and my agent had sent me episodes of Dream On and had sent me the pilot of the show. So they come in and they go, what'd you think of the pilot? I go, yeah, it was pretty good, but I really like Dream on. I'd never seen it before. And I kept talking about Dream On and how much I loved it. And we had a really good meeting. And then when I get back, my agent calls me and says, just so you know, when you go up for a show and someone says, how'd you like the pilot? And that's the show you're up for. Yeah. You loved the pilot and it gets the show you want to work on. Right. They're not hiring for Dream on right now and they don't want to hire you on this pilot cause you didn't seem interested, interested. I'm like, okay. Yeah. And then a month later they were hiring for Dream On and they remembered me and they hired me for that instead. So I did. And in fact, I ended up back backing into this job that I much preferred.Michael Jamin:How, but how many years were you dream on before they bumped you to showrunner? Okay,Stephen Engel:So I was a stor. I went as staff writer, not had not worked a day in television. Really? Andy Gordon was Andy and Eileen. It was their first day right writer named Howard Morris. It was his first day. We were all three staff writers, but I had written five movies. So I had a pretty good understanding of story structure and if you can write a movie, you can write a tv. So I did the first season Astor as staff writer. The next season I was a story editor and then the showrunners left and they needed to find a new showrunner and they couldn't find anyone they liked. And eventually they just said, I think Stephen can do it. So I literally went from being my second year, I was a story editor or executive story editor, maybe I got a bump at the end to showrunner.Michael Jamin:That's crazy.Stephen Engel:So I was, I didn't know if I was ready at all. I was just, the only reason to say no would've been out of fear. And I realized worst case scenario, if I completely flame out then so they bring someone in over me and I'm still in the same position.Michael Jamin:And then what were they? Or they fire you, but they getStephen Engel:Rid of you. Well, I don't think they probably would've just kept me around because I was the only one who knew the show.Michael Jamin:And how many years did you run it for?Stephen Engel:I ran for the next two seasons, the last and then the show ended.Michael Jamin:And why do you think they left? Why did they leave the show? Their own show. They had a deal somewhere.Stephen Engel:Har and Crane created the show, ran it for three seasons. They were getting paid like a dollar to do this. They had never done anything. It was insane how little money they were making. And they got a deal at Warner Brothers. So between season two and three, they had created a show before Friends called Family Album. And I went and worked on that between Seasons of Friends, between Seasons of Dream On. And then I went back to Dream on as the showrunner. So the season, the second season, two other writers who had been on, who had been producers, Jeff Greens son and Jeff Straus rose to showrunner, then they left and took a deal at Universal. So there was nobody, because they weren't paying a lot, so people were going to more lucrative jobs. So they needed a showrunner and nobody had else had worked on the show. And they were like, we could bring in someone else who doesn't know the show or we could let Steven try.Michael Jamin:And I mean, you were not intimidated by, I mean, IStephen Engel:Was scared shitless.Michael Jamin:Right. I mean,Stephen Engel:I didn't know what I was doing. I had no idea. I learned, fortunately I learned from really good people,Michael Jamin:But I remember when we worked together and just shoot me the first six episodes. First season, yeah. I was, was useless. And I didn't know what to say. And I would look at you guys, the more senior writers. I'm like, how did they know what to say? How did they know? I mean it was real. I was so lost. Yeah.Stephen Engel:I think part of it had been that I was a little older than you were. I had already been a lawyer for, so I was like 30 when I had my staff writer job. So maybe I was a little bit more confident just in Gen general. You were like 25, 23.Michael Jamin:I was 26. I was 26. Ok. But ok.Stephen Engel:So I had gotten my first writing job when I was 26 writing a movie. And I, so I done a bunch of movies, I understood structure, I had a confidence in that I knew how to tell a story. So I guess I kind of, the first day of Dream On, I remember pitching something where they were telling a story that had a fairly conventional ending where everything worked out really well. And I pitched this subversive twist on it where the character looks like the character was going to win. And then at the end it all got pulled out from under him. And they were all, I think that's better because I had just not really been around network television or even any kind of television. So I was pitching kind of a lot of, I don't know, movie, more movie-like ideas I guess.Michael Jamin:That's so interesting because I really remember, I remember on jhu Me, you would stand at the board a lot. I remember, to be honest, we often disagree with Levitan. And you made such a compelling case and you're always at the board. You had immaculate handwriting and you're always standing at the board breaking the story and you'd make an argument. And it was so compelling. I'm like, maybe we should be listening to this guy. It was dooms. If we don't what's going to happen, of course there's many ways you could do it, but of course I was like, of course. I was like, wow, what's going to happen if we don't do it that way?Stephen Engel:It's very funny. I remember the first season of Dream on Howard Morris who I love. He's a great guy, very emotional guy. And I was very logical in a lot of ways. And he had written a script and he had this whole run that he really was in love with. And the script was long. We needed cuts. And I was like, I think we can cut from here to two pages later. And you really, the story actually, not only would you not miss it, but the story would actually be working better and be more tight. And he was like, you can't do that. You can't possibly do that. This is the greatest thing that's ever been written. It is really good. But I think we need cuts. And I don't think it's actually, and one by one, everybody in the room was like, I think he's right. And he was losing his mind. He was like, right, don't listen to him using his logic on you. He's a magician. And we ended up cutting it and it ended up working better. So it's funny that I guess the legal training came in, I guess to some useMichael Jamin:Well, yeah, I, but I also remember you saying, I quote you as this saying this, that I have to get this right. Your worst day as a writer was still better than your best day as a lawyer.Stephen Engel:It was probably, I'm not sure that's true anymore.Michael Jamin:I believe thatStephen Engel:For a long time that was true. I would say there have been some dark days. But whatMichael Jamin:Do dark days look like then for you? Yeah. What isStephen Engel:It? Well, the day your show gets canceled, right? There were days, there was a, one show got canceled where I was like, oh, thank God. Right? Because I had a deal behind it and it was like a nightmare. And I hated going there every minute. And I was like, I had to go into the room and pretend like I got really bad news. Everyone, the show's been canceled. I was like, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. There are sometimes when it's so bad you're like, just end it. Just fucking euthanize me. So that there are days where it show you isn't going badly, gets canceled and then it's kind of heartbreaking.Michael Jamin:Now do you have a preference? Cause you've done a lot. Do you have a preference between working single camera R? Right. Writing.Stephen Engel:I prefer single camera. Why? I think it comes from my feature writing career. It was funny, I made such a conversion when I worked on that show family album with Kauffman and Crane. We went in and there was some joke in my script and it was a good joke I thought. And we go to the table read and it doesn't do great at the table. This is my first time I've ever had been to a multi cam table read ever my first multi cam script. And everyone in the room is kind of like, yeah, I think we maybe want to punch this joke. And David Crane to his credit was like, no, I believe in this joke. And there's a really good smart joke. So we go to the run through first run through, it dies. And again, everyone's like, maybe we want to pitch on this. And David's like, no, no, I really, let's give it one more day. I don't think, I feel like they didn't do a great job on it. Let's give it one more day. By the third day it dies again. And same thing. And David's like, let's give it another day. He goes, I think it's rye. I'm at this point I'm completely converted. I'm like, fuck rye. Rye is fucking crickets.We could pitch 20 more jokes. It took me three days to realize that, you know, can't get away with clever. You need to get real laughs.Michael Jamin:Right.Stephen Engel:And I'd like, I like it. I just like the storytelling in Multicam a little bit better. OrMichael Jamin:Just you, the storytelling multicam better.Stephen Engel:No, no. In single Camm a bit better. Yeah. Frankly, I used to think a perfect job for me would be you write the scripts and then you send them out magazines. You don't actually have to produce them. Oh yeah. That was always where the hard,Michael Jamin:It's never as funny as it is. It's never asStephen Engel:Funny. Sometimes it is. It depends on your cast. But other times it's the rewriting and the endless rewriting. It's just have them read it and let them imagine what it might look like.Michael Jamin:It's called a book.Stephen Engel:It's called a book. Yeah.Michael Jamin:There was a episode, I think it was, not sure if you were there then, but I, I was fighting, I fought with Sievert, my partner about a joke that I wanted in the script. I go, this joke is going to kill. And he's like, this joke is terrible. I'm like, it's going in, it's going. And we got blows over it. We put it in the script, we go to the table and the joke just dies. It gets nothing. And then I start laughing hysterically. He goes like, cause how could I have been so wrong and so arrogant? And I'm laughing hysterically Now everyone's looking at seabird because they're like, it's his joke. You're laughing atStephen Engel:Him. And now I'mMichael Jamin:Laughing even more. I'm like, yeah, it's his fucking trouble.Stephen Engel:There's nothing more humbling than watching your jokes die on a stage. Like after a while you get used to it. But the great thing about single cam on, dream on, we'd write it, we'd go out and film it. And if no one's laughing, you never know.Michael Jamin:You never know. Right. But did you can't believe in it. But you did table reads for Dream on, I'm sure, right? DidStephen Engel:Not do table reads.Michael Jamin:That's so interesting. How did you get away away with that?Stephen Engel:They had no, they didn't. They gave no notes. H B O gave no notes. I remember getting one note one time and being like, I can't work like this. This joke is, I'm not changing this joke. And I was like, indignant a playwright. Eugene O'Neal had beenMichael Jamin:MarriedStephen Engel:To change a stage direction. And then I got to network and it was like, oh, okay.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Now these are notes. This is how it works. When you were, now you've done also a lot of kit shows. I mean, you get a lot of notes on Kit shows more or less. Oh myStephen Engel:God. Yeah. You'd get tons of notesMichael Jamin:More than networks.Stephen Engel:I did. Oftentimes you get a note, it's like, I please take some of these jokes out. I we doesn't need to be this funny,Michael Jamin:Real, what's the problem with, all right,Stephen Engel:I can get you the best punch down. Writers in. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Bring them in. But really they don't want fun. Is that what kind of notes they give you in these show? I did aStephen Engel:Show, did a show this, show this Sigma and the Sea Monsters reboot, which wasMichael Jamin:Very scaryStephen Engel:For Amazon. And the first thing we turned in there, it was very funny. And they were like, we don't really do this. It's like, we don't want this to be funny. As nearly as funny as this script is, it's just don't feel compelled to put a joke on every page. I'm like a joke. You don't want one joke on it on every page. And they're like, no, if it's warm and fuzzy and they just were afraid that it was going to feel too Disney or tooMichael Jamin:NoStephen Engel:Jokey networky or jokey or whatever.Michael Jamin:Because when you look back at sitcoms from the sixties and seventies family affair, there weren't a lot of jokes in Family Affair. I mean,Stephen Engel:No, I think that's what they were going for. They were going for just kind of poignant and sort of warm. They, I feel they felt like jokes would alienate people and be too controversial. Or they kept referring to their viewers as customers,Michael Jamin:Buyers. TheyStephen Engel:Want buyers.Michael Jamin:Buyers,Stephen Engel:Our buyers, our customers don't really want that. I'm like, okay, all right.Michael Jamin:That's so good. I wonder if that's, that's really how they saw them is like, yeah, what else were they going to about?Stephen Engel:Yeah, yeah. It was,Michael Jamin:Oh my God. Did that make the hours easier since you didn't have to punch upStephen Engel:Or doing a sort of family shows?Michael Jamin:Are you getting out earlier?Stephen Engel:Yeah. Yeah. I think so. For the most part. We never phoned it in. We were always trying to do, and we never wrote down the shows that I worked on. We made them as funny as we could and as bendy and weird as we could, oftentimes we would get notes saying, this is too, I think you're, you kids aren't going to get this. But what they don't get, they'll ask their parents or their older siblings and let's not underestimate the audience watching Bugs Bunny cartoons. You're going to still laugh and you may not get every level. So we were kind of writing it for the adults.Michael Jamin:You were able to push back on that.Stephen Engel:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess their recourse was ultimately to cancel you if you weren't doing what they wanted you to do.Michael Jamin:Well, do they have different ways of I they must, different ways of measuring. We haven't done too many streaming shows, but measuring when people are dropping off, what kind of stuff they like more statistics. Do they share that with you?Stephen Engel:No,Michael Jamin:No, never.Stephen Engel:I only did mean the Amazon was the only streaming show and they never really wanted this show. I don't think to begin with. I think it was inherited from the previous regime or something. It was like the whole thing was driven by puppets and they were, if we had our druthers, we wouldn't even have the puppets in it. Well, well the main character is a puppet, so you're kind of stuck.Michael Jamin:So, oh man, that's Hollywood man. Yeah. Now do you, but you must get more obviously opportunities in the children's businesses.Stephen Engel:I don't. I don't. Don't. And I don't pursue them. I didn't really want to do it. Right. I basically did it. I only did it because it was a show writing opportunity and I didn't want work on someone else's show at that point. And I also leveraged it into, I wanted, I said, I'll do it if I can direct.Michael Jamin:Okay.Stephen Engel:So I ended up getting in the DGA and directing a handful of episodes.Michael Jamin:And they were single camera?Stephen Engel:No, they were multiMichael Jamin:Camera, multi and so interesting.Stephen Engel:And it was kind of fun. I mean, I had just sort of aged out of coaching my kids little league and basketball teams and stuff. So they were now just had just more or less finished that. So working on a show, that was almost like being a coach or a camp counselor in a weird way. You'd go to the stage, the kids would be thrilled to see you, you'd get down on one knee and get eye level with them and give them a compliment sandwich. Do you know that from coaching?Michael Jamin:No. What is that?Stephen Engel:A compliment sandwich is basically in baseball you would literally get down on a knee and you'd say you're doing tee-ball. And in tee-ball what happens invariably is a kid hits the ball to left field and every kid on the field runs to get the ball from every position, or at least a handful of them do. So you get down on the knee and you go, I love your hustle and great enthusiasm. Then you put the criticism in the middle and you're like, but you know, need to stay where your position is so that everybody has their own spot. And if the balls it to you, the ball, you know, field it. If the balls it to left field, they field it. But again, great energy and keep up that enthusiasm. So you put the constructive criticism in between two compliments. IMichael Jamin:Would think that they would remember the first thing and the last thing they heard.Stephen Engel:Well, that's great job. We did a joke like that. We did a joke like that where a character on an forum was giving a note to somebody. They were doing a musical performance or something, and the main character said to this other character, I really like your enthusiasm. Try to hit at least any of the notes if possible because your singing's not good at all. But again, great energy. And the character goes, thanks. Hey, thanks.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's what I would, so that's so interesting. And were you dealing with a lot of parents on adult momager orStephen Engel:Whatever? Yeah, there was a lot of that. It was fun, but creatively it was like, I'm done. This I just want to do, I'd rather not work and just write stuff I want to write than write on a kid show at this point. Because I also felt like they weren't really looking for you to do anything smart and that smart or that funny. It's changed. I think they're trying to be more creative and more inventive now, but at the time it just felt like, I don't really feel like doing this anymore. It's just not like someone would say, what are you working on? I'm like, it's not important. Don't worry about it. You're not going to watch it. It's fine.Michael Jamin:WellStephen Engel:Fine for what? But I don't watch it. You're not going to watch it.Michael Jamin:But when you say working on your own stuff now, so whatever, you'll just write stuff on spec and hope toStephen Engel:Sell. Yeah, I'll pitch stuff. I'll write stuff on spec. I've written a bunch of specs recently where I've tried every possible way to skin a cat in this business. I'm like, it's all I'm going to write spec scripts. That way they'll totally see what the show is. And then I would have a bible behind it to pitch all of these things. And I've had a couple of things where I had studios say, let's go out with this, but let's pitch it. You didn't write itMichael Jamin:Right yet.Stephen Engel:I'm like, well, why would you do that? Because I've got it right here. AndMichael Jamin:Because they want to put their thumbprints on, theyStephen Engel:Want to put their imprimatur on it. So the way I put it is, if you give, give someone a baked fully baked cake, they'll be like, this is a, it's a good cake, but I've got this recipe for a cake. Yeah, that's going to be the best cake that's ever been made and we're going to put in all these different ingredients and make it even better. And then that gets turned in and they're like, it's a cake. There's always that unknown potential of what a pitch is going to be. Whereas a spec, they'll go, well, there's this one thing I'm not sure about or this other thing and they want to get involved.Michael Jamin:But have you ever sold anything on spec? BecauseStephen Engel:When you, honestly, I don't think I have. IMichael Jamin:Know haven't written a few.Stephen Engel:I have a project, I have a project right now that it, we're going back and forth on negotiations, negotiating an option for them to, to option the script. And they're trying to decide whether we should go out with the script or go out or whether I should reverse engineer the pitch.Michael Jamin:ButStephen Engel:We have an option. They have an option for a year within a purchase with a purchase price to buy the script. What would happen is if we pitch it, they would basically go, okay, just wait three months and then turn in the script that you've already written because we left the script. But again, it's unclear as to what my feeling is. We should send out the script because the idea and it's in and of itself is not necessarily that unique. It's the execution of the idea. That's unique. Of course. And I think that's what got you interested. If I had just pitched you this idea, you probably would've said, well, I don't know. It seems like there's stuff out there like that. But it was my script that got you excited.Michael Jamin:Right, right. I remember early on, I wonder if you still feel this way. I remember I just shoot me, you telling me, yeah, because you were ready to leave, move on. And you're like, yeah, I want to go back to running a show. And then you did couple many shows. Yeah. But do you still feel that way? Do you care so much whether you're running it or,Stephen Engel:No, I've had good experiences and bad experiences doing both for a while after the big house, which was a good experience. My kids were at that point, maybe, how old were they? Eight and six. And I was running a show was very all consuming. And you, yeah, you never go home. I mean, yeah, even when you're home, you're like, you've got outlines to read, you've got cuts to watch, you've got the weight of the show on your shoulders at all times. You can't get away from it. And I was like, I really want to be more present. I want to be able to go to my kids' games. I want to be come home and be able to relax. So I'm like, I want to go on be someone else's, like consigliere, I'll be the number two. Yeah. I'll go, here's what I would do. Do it. Don't do it whatever you want. And then go home and be like, I'm done for the day. And I did that for a while. And I think in retrospect it sort of took me off of the showrunner showrunner's list for doing that for three or four years. I think people were necessarily remembering or thinking me necessarily when they were looking for showrunners because I was all of a sudden now someone's number two. But I don't regret it because I got to spend the time with my family.Michael Jamin:But now I now want to go back to running. I mean, it is a lot of work,Stephen Engel:My kid, well, right now, honestly, nobody, you know me, but anyone under the age of 40 doesn't, has never worked with me and doesn't know who I am. So for me to get a job on another show, because I, it's been a while since I've worked on a show where with people who would be young enough to go, oh, we need to work with this guy. He's really smart and good and funny. If I'm going to get a job, it's because I'm going to create a show myself and run it. And that's the job I'll have. I don't even know if my agent even submits me. I have no idea. So I'm back to just pitching and writing my own stuff and if it sells, of course I'll run it. So look, they both have their perils. I missed my kind of adolescence as a TV writer. I went from being right a second grader to a college student. I never had that. So I got to go and be on someone else's show. And sometimes it was good and sometimes it was bad. I worked in the Big Bang theory and it was not funMichael Jamin:From a lot of people. TheStephen Engel:Most fun place to work, it was delightful show. But I used to not going to work every day. Right. Cause I didn't take the tone of the show, the work environment, I mean the tone of the show, I was fine not dictating the tone of the show, but I was not enjoying the tone of the work environment.Michael Jamin:I got you. I know what you'reStephen Engel:Saying. So it was not a good experience. I dreaded going every day. It was a job. It, I might as well have been a lawyer again.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Yeah. You've had many experiences like that though. Were you like you pitting your stomach every morning?Stephen Engel:Not that many once on my own show, just because I had a difficult situation with one of the stars who it's not worth going into, butMichael Jamin:At least on the air.Stephen Engel:What'sMichael Jamin:That? At least? At least not on the air. NotStephen Engel:On the air. But most shows have been, some are better than others. I worked on a show that it was very dysfunctional and I've gone into work on shows where, where I had a deal where they were like, we need you to go help on this show. And it's kind of in shambles. I'm like, I'll go in and help, but I'm going in between the hours of 10 and seven. And if they start at five, I'll be there from five to seven.Michael Jamin:But okay, you can make that deal with the studio. But then the minute the showrunner finds out about that, during I made itStephen Engel:With the show, I made the deal with the showrunner.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay.Stephen Engel:Because they needed the help. And I was like, I'm not going down this sinkhole. I've already, I'm in a deal. I don't, I'm doing this. I'm helping out because I want to be a team player, but I'm going to help out within the hours that are reasonable hours. And it was so dysfunctional, people would show up and play guitars for four hours and play ping pong. And I'm like, are we going to work or not work? So I'm like, let me know when we're starting and I'll be there.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know. I wonder, I don't know if that happens so much anymore. I think that's something that's been cleaned up a little bit.Stephen Engel:I don't know. I don't know mean, look, some shows, some showrunners are not, some creators become writers, become creators are not prepared to be a showrunner. They don't know how to manage a business. That'sMichael Jamin:Exactly right.Stephen Engel:And it's a different skillset being a talented writer and being a manager or a C E o or different skillsets. And some people are lucky enough to have both skills. Some people are good CEOs but not great writers and they need a better team. And some people are great writers and need someone to help them literally get through the day. AndMichael Jamin:People don't realize that because no one goes into comedy writing to become a manager of people. No.Stephen Engel:And if you have the talent, you eventually rise to a level where you're expected to all of a sudden be in charge of 150 people and to show up every day on time and to try to be responsible and actually conduct yourself in a way that's professional. And not everyone can do that.Michael Jamin:And always the trickiest thing. I think as a show runners, no one went to push knowing how far you can push back against a network note or even a difficult actor. Yeah. And what's your thought on that?Stephen Engel:Well, what I used to do is they never would give me a note. The trick to getting and addressing notes is to get them to realize that they're being heard. And you'll say, we're not going to figure this out right now together. I hear you. I know what, I know exactly what to do. And then go off and change it enough that they feel like you've taken their, at least into consideration their thought, their thoughts into consideration. But oftentimes what I would sometimes do is they'd give a note. I'm like, we can do that. But just so you know, here's the ripple effect. If we do that, then this scene here no longer makes sense because this scene that you really love won't make sense because we've already revealed this information. So this scene doesn't play and then this scene doesn't work because whatever this and this and this, we can do it. And I'm have to change those scenes and I'm willing to, but just realize that it's not as simple as making this one change here. There are ripple effects throughout the rest of the script. And they're like, you know what? You're right. Stuff's working great. Don't worry about it.So they don't know. They don't necessarily always see the big picture and understand how pulling one thread could unravel the entire sweater. So I just present it to them and go, would you like me to do that? We can do that. And then they go, no, no. Like I, I hear what you want and I'll massage it without having to do those things. But I hear what you're saying and I'll try to adjust it as best I can without unraveling the whole scriptMichael Jamin:And then working. What about working with difficult actors?Stephen Engel:That's harder. That's harder because you can'tMichael Jamin:Put the words in their mouth. You can't make mistake, you can'tStephen Engel:Make them do it. I mean, had an actor who literally was so he just wanted to take over the show and was, he never should have done it. They backed up a money truck to get him to do it and he didn't want to do it. And he did it reluctantly and didn't wanted it to be his show and not my show. So I think wanted tried to get rid of me and came to table reads with sunglasses on and just looked down the whole time. And which was the best thing that ever happened because the network saw that he was not doing his job. He was doing my job, but he wasn't doing his. But they'reMichael Jamin:Still going to take his side. TheStephen Engel:Show went down, but I didn't get, they were like, you handed yourself really professionally. And that person,Michael Jamin:Were you worried so much about that? Are you worried so much about protecting your reputa reputation like that within the industry? I mean,Stephen Engel:You always have to be a little bit worried. I, I would probably think that just given my, I don't know, I guess I have a, it's maybe it's coming from being a lawyer. I can see, if you tell me, like I mentioned, if we should change this joke or this line or this, do we need this? I can see all of the ramifications all at once. So sometimes I will, by pointing out the flaws in the note, some executives don't want to hear that. They don't want to know. They just want to think that they're right. Or they also want you to basically, I remember in one situation on a show where they were like, we've got great news. The network wants to do a mini room. I'm like, great.Michael Jamin:How's that? Great news? The news?Stephen Engel:I thought the deal was they're either going to pick up the show or not. That's why we went there. It'sMichael Jamin:Great news for us.Stephen Engel:They're like, well, why wouldn't you want to delve into the characters more? And I do, but that's not the deal we negotiated and now you're basically, I have to do all the same work for one 10th of the money. And they didn't want to hear that. So I think sometimes it's just best to be like, and I would also maybe sometimes have a tendency if somebody is lying blatantly to me and I say, wait, I don't understand last, yesterday you said X, Y, and Z, but now you're saying A, B, and C. So I'm confused. And they just want to go. They don't want to be called out on that.Michael Jamin:Right?Stephen Engel:So they're like, look, why are you being difficult? I'm like, I'm not, I'm just asking for clarification. Cause it seems like you're telling me two different things and I don't understand as opposed to just going, okay, I hear you. We'll do it without any. So I think sometimes you just have to swallow your pride and just eat shit and not speak up about it.Michael Jamin:The problem is you're saying, I feel like most of those fights are not winnable.Stephen Engel:They're not winnable. So there's no point in pointing it out. But sometimes I'm just, I don't, don't understand. Just tell me what, what's going on and then we can move forward. But they sometimes they don't even remember what's what they're spinning.Michael Jamin:I don't think I've ever convinced an studio or network executive that I was and they were wrong. I don't think I'veStephen Engel:Ever, it may have been a per victory, but I have.Michael Jamin:You were fired shortly afterwards.Stephen Engel:No, I mean it just may be whatever. Yeah, you're right if you're doing it this way. But in the long run, they just maybe weren't that happy with the direction, generalMichael Jamin:Direction. Right.Stephen Engel:I did the show where this kid show, and it was about a superhero hospital and there were villains and there were heroes and superheroes and super villains. And we wanted the villains and the heroes to have distinct personalities and flaws and be funny. They could be a villain and be funny at the same time. They're like, look, just have them villains. Just be scary and don't give them, they don't have to be funny. But we're writing a comedy and eventually we took a lot of the jokes out, but we didn't want to deliver a show that we didn't believe in. And then ultimately they were like, we did two seasons. And they were like, this is not really what we want to do. So they didn't do a third season. So you either go down with your ship and what you do, the show you want to do and have it not get picked up for another season or do a show for four seasons that you don't believe in.Michael Jamin:Though a lot of people on social media, they say, well, they don't understand. I think all the writers in Hollywood terrible, because if all the shows I'm like, you don't understand how shows are made. It's like, no, no. Sometimes the system is designed to make a show bad and there's really nothing you can do about it other than either,Stephen Engel:I mean, no one's looking to make a show bad. It's just what the creator thinks is good and what the network thinks is good may not be the same thing. There's that famous story about what those guys who did that Stephen Weber show called Cursed,Michael Jamin:I dunno if I know this story. Okay.Stephen Engel:Steven Webber did a show, there was a show starring Stephen Webber, it was called Cursed. It was for n b NBC back in the nineties. And the premise was, Stephen Webber is like this kind of womanizing dating machine who goes on this date and with a I, you shouldn't even say Gypsy, I guess, I dunno if it's derogatory, but a woman who puts a spell on it, he basically ghosts her or doesn't call her or is not nice to her on a date. And turns out she puts a curse on him that he's never going to find love and oh, his romantic life is going to be a disaster. Okay. So the cast, Steven Weber, he's super charming and funny. They decide to pick up the show and they go, we're picking up the show, but we have one elemental change if we'd like to pick. It's a small note. They're like, okay, what is it? He goes, we don't want him to be cursed. They're like all cursed. They're like, well, we can change it. We'll like so. Well, well, the Steven Weber show.Michael Jamin:Okay,Stephen Engel:So now what's the premise about Steven Weber dating?Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. But he is not having a hard time dating. He'sStephen Engel:Just, he either is but there's no curse.Michael Jamin:There's no curse.Stephen Engel:Yeah. Okay. Nig did a show called Inside Schwartz, and the whole idea of it was that you're inside the main character's head. Right. So the idea is that, you know, get to see his internal and hear his internal dialogue with characters he's talking to that only he can see. All right. And at one point about halfway through the series, the president of the network came to run, came to talk to me after a run through and said, look, we really like the main character. He's a great actor, but he's like, we want it to be more of a Michael J. Fox character dives into things without thinking. I'm like, well, the character is written is an overthinker and he's thinking about everything. And we dramatize those in the forms of him talking to these people who only he sees. He goes, well we, no, we don't. We want him to not be an overthinker. We want him to be just to jump into stuff. I'm like, so I'm writing inside Schwartz and you want outside Schwartz, right? And they went exactly perfect. I said, all right, I guess. But at that point it's like, how do you turn a aircraft carrier aroundThrough, and you've got four or five scripts that are ready to go that are all, hold on, I'mMichael Jamin:HollywoodStephen Engel:That are written inside Schwartz, and you want outside Schwartz. And they're like, well come up with new scripts, you know, can take an extra week, a hiatus and change. So we had to basically change course and make an adjustment. So just because they think, what if they changed their minds? They love something when they saw it and then they start to panic that they think it should be this, and they the next day have a completely different idea. But it, it's just, that's the idea they woke up with.Michael Jamin:Or often it's whatever was a hit over the weekend, that's what they want and make it more like that.Stephen Engel:Exactly. Exactly. So that has ramifications and real life ramifications that you've then got to make work. And it's your job, unfortunately sometimes is to try to turn a cat into a monkey. It's just like, all right, that's what I'm going to have to try to do.Michael Jamin:And are you able to do this with a good attitude?Stephen Engel:I to, I think I have probably, I have a better attitude about it now. I'm just more mature and it's like, all right, it is what it is. I understand it. Back then, I think I took everything much more personally and I was agonized more about it. Now I'm just like, I come, it's coming and you just have to deal with it or not deal with it or whatever. I, I've walked away from it. I've walked away from a deal on a show where I was like, I didn't feel right about it.Michael Jamin:What do you mean you didn't feel right about it?Stephen Engel:I just didn't, I don't know, I just wasn't comfortable ultimately with the people I was going to be working with. As I got to know them better, the deal wasn't the greatest deal and I was like, I don't think this is worth it. I think this is going to be a nightmare. And I just said, I turned wouldn't, they didn't come up. I just said, you know what, no mean, at the time I was running a different show, so this was development behind it, so I didn't need the job, but I was like, I see the writing on the wall here and if I can't, you can't meet my numbers and this is going to be unpleasant. And I can already tell. AndMichael Jamin:How do you think they took it when you did that? No one likes to hear thatStephen Engel:They were really not happy. I mean, yeah, really. I said, look, I'm just not comfortable with it. And I just, things had changed. It was an idea that it's not worth going into. It was easier to just say, forget, don't rather not do it than go into what I know is going to be a shit stormMichael Jamin:Right now. Not enough money. The industry has changed so much even in the past maybe 10 years or so. But I dunno, what are your thoughts on it? What are your thoughts on where it's going? Look,Stephen Engel:I'm one of those people who, whatever, everyone who's not in the industry says, oh, must be so great now, all these different streaming networks and some to sell shows. I'm like, it's not great. First of all, these places are, you know, do all the same work and you're doing six episodes or eight episodes or 10 episodes, and that's exactly when the curve starts to get, there's a very steep curve getting a show off the ground. And then it's like, now I get the show and now it's sort of the, it's heavy lifting at the beginning and then it sort of tapers off and it's always heavy lifting, but you start to figure it out. And then for the back nine it's like, it's not as hard if you stay on top of it and you get stories broken on time. So you're doing all of the heavy lifting without any of the economies of scale and you're only getting paid by the episode and you're working 40 weeks to do seven episodes or eight episodes instead of 40 weeks to do 22 episodes.Michael Jamin:Okay. So in, cause they make, that's not the case on many of the shows we're doing. Maybe they're lower budget, they just usually bring you on thete, the writing staff in pre-production. And so then you're the showStephen Engel:Runners. But as a showrunner, you've got to do, you're there for whatever the eight saying you're doing eight episodes, you're going to do eight weeks of pre-production and writing. You're going to do eight weeks or more of production, then you're going to do eight to 10 weeks of post. And yeah, you're working 35 weeks to do those eight episodes. Whereas if you're working on a network show for 22 episodes, you work 40 weeks and you do, you get 22 fees. So the writers who come in and do their six or 12 weeks get paid for their eight episodes and not, that said they work there eight weeks and they do their 12, their eight episodes. Do youMichael Jamin:Feel this affects the quality of writers that you're able to hire now because they have less training?Stephen Engel:I think so. They're not around production. They don't understand or understand production as well. It, it's tricky. I also think that to some extent, I may be alone in this. I think that some of the storytelling and streaming, it feels like a lot of shows feel like they, someone took a movie and they probably didn't sell this movie, and they said, I got an idea for a series and it would be a great movie. But what they end up doing is they, it's those chest spreaders if you were to have a heart bypass or something, it's like they put a chest spreader into the screenplay and they open it up and they jam six episodes of filler in the middle. And the beginning is the first half of a good movie. And the last two episodes, this is the second half of a pretty good movie, and the middle is just treading water. And you're just like, yeah, each episode becomes a chapter in a book. So a lot of writers are not learning how to tell an episode that has a beginning, middle, and end because it's all middle.Michael Jamin:Right?Stephen Engel:Episode one is a beginning, episode eight is the ending, and everything in the middle is middle. No. Those episodes don't have a beginning, middle, and end. They're picking up from the middle and ending somewhere else in the middle. They're moving the ball down the field. But you don't have a kickoff and you don't, I think a lot of writers maybe don't know how to tell a complete story anymore because there aren't any freestanding episodes.Michael Jamin:How do you think these new writers are breaking in today? It's very different than when we were breaking in. How are they getting in?Stephen Engel:I teach a course at UCLA and I always, they always ask the same question. How do you get an agent? How do you break in? I guess it's not that different other than the fact that there are maybe fewer barriers to entry. You want to write a web series and shoot it on your phone and send it out to a million people on. Now the trick is it's getting people to see it, but no one was going to read your screenplay. If you're a new writer and you say, Hey, will you read my script and you're in my class? They're like, Hey, can I send you a new script I just wrote? I'm like, no. Yeah, I'm not going to read that. But if they send me, Hey, I wrote a one minute episode, you want to, would you watch it? I'm like, okay. I mean, I could watch a one minute episode of something.Right? And if it's interesting, then you could go, that's really kind of interesting. Let's talk about it. So there are ways to get in. I hired a writer on an farm I was writing with a guy named Dan Sinner. Sinner, great guy, funny writer. And we were looking for an assistant. So we met this woman and she came in and she had no experience as an assistant, but she had just graduated from Harvard six months earlier. But she mentioned she had a Twitter feed and that she had written a couple of jokes that somehow Maude Aow had found. And she was like 12. And she tweeted it, retweeted it, and then because Judd Aow followed her and saw the jokes, he started following her and retweeted it. And then a lot of his followers were started following her. So all of a sudden I had 10,000 followers.So anyway, we finished interviewing her. I really liked her. And I'm like, what's the feed? What's the Twitter feed? She told me And I went and I read it and there were, I read the first 10 jokes. Eight of them were a plus jokes. And I said to Dan, I'm like, let's hire her as our assistant. If we need jokes, we, she's really good at joke writing and we're still looking for a last staff writer. And she was our assistant for a day. I'm like, do you have a spec? You've written? Like, I wrote a 30 Rock. So I read it and it was green, but first five pages, five great jokes. So finally Dan and I were like, let's hire her today because in three years we're going to be looking for her to hire us because she was that talented.Michael Jamin:Have had three years passed.Stephen Engel:She very quickly became very successful and has over a million Twitter, Twitter dollars.Michael Jamin:But is she working as a writer?Stephen Engel:She ended up working on Silicon Valley and Oh wow. Parks and Rec and she ended up working on The Simpsons. And soMichael Jamin:You were right. The good place.Stephen Engel:Yeah. I mean she was really talent. It was undeniable. So I always tell writers, write Jo, if you could write jokes, you'll work to, you're 90. To the extent shows like to have jokes anymore, which a lot of them don't. Right. I always think about that joke. I dunno if you remember this from the Emmys, maybe like four or five, six years ago, Michael Chay and Colin Jost hosted the Emmys. And I always tell this to my class, Colin, Joe says that the opening monologue, he says, tonight we give awards for the best comedies and dramas in television. And for those of you who don't know, a drama, a comedy is a drama that's 30 minutes long.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Stephen Engel:There's just so many shows now that are not really that funnyMichael Jamin:That I ain't going for it. What is this club, what's the class called that you're teaching at U ucla?Stephen Engel:It's in the professional program through the school of the Film School write writing a half hour pilot.Michael Jamin:So a graduate. So they have a grad, graduateStephen Engel:Program. It's not a M ffa and it's not undergrad. It's like a professional program where you can apply, it's a one year program. You take three quarters, 10 weeks each, and you go from basically Idea to finish script in 10 weeks.Michael Jamin:And it's at, you say, so it's not used to extension, it's something else.Stephen Engel:No, it's not Extension. It's a, it's through the School of Television, film and theater. Wow. That's theater, film and television, I guess it's called. Yeah. So eight to 10 people. And you're kind of, wow. I kind of act as the showrunner, but I want to hear, get everybody's input. Everyone gets input from each other about their ideas. So it's like a writing class group.Michael Jamin:They'd be lucky to get in your class. For sure.Stephen Engel:Yeah. I tend to give them a lot of, I think, very thorough notes and hopefully it's helpful. And I don't mince words. I mean, I'm gentle with it. I'll always, I'll do my notes and then I'll go back and soften them. I'll be like, instead of this, I don't think this is working. I would say, I wonder if some readers might think this is a bit confusing as opposed to, this is confusing. Or I remember confusing.Michael Jamin:I remember. And just shouldn't be turning to you. I can't remember. It was a script. Levi 10 was running the show, and I think we had a problem with the scene. And I seem to remember you helping us. You pulled you aside, Hey, how do you think this scene should work? Because we were lost and you were very helpful.Stephen Engel:Well, I had at that point already run Dreman for several years and and had some showing experience. And look, Ste, Steve was a great showrunner and one of his, he's smart enough and secure enough to know that I will benefit by having other experienced showrunners on working with me and other very experienced writers. Cause I may not have the answer all the time.Michael Jamin:Oh, I also remember thinking that I don't want to bother the boss. I'll bother someone who's not the boss.Stephen Engel:Yeah. But again, was you were your first job and you're want to make sure you don't do any. I've worked on shows where staff writers are told, don't even say a word.Michael Jamin:Oh, really?Stephen Engel:More or less. It's just you're there to generate jokes on your own and just keep quiet. Which is to me is if I can get a joke from a pa, I'll take it. I don't care where the joke comes from. If it helps make the script better. If a PA comes in and delivers a pizza and goes, what'd be funny? I'm like, that is funny. Right. I'll put that in.Michael Jamin:Right. Yeah. You whatever gets you home earlier. Yeah. Yeah.Stephen Engel:And makes the script better. And hopefully makes the script better. It's all going to make you look better as a showrunner.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it was. And you're right, dude. I mean that show that it was really top heavy, just shoot me. It's top heavy. And it was, that's probably what was so intimidating to me was everyone was so funny. And I remember even turning to Marsh after several weeks. It was like, Marsha, I, I'm laughing too much. I'm not pitching enough. I'm enjoying myself too much. Right. What do I do? Because I'm not here to observe.Stephen Engel:I can see how it would be intimidating. I was lucky enough that on my first job it was Kauffman and Crane were the showrunners. Greenstone and Strass were like the producer, co-producer, exec producer, kind of supervising producer level. And then we had three staff writers who were all pretty new. So it felt democratic. But you come into a Topheavy show and you're, you were the only staff writers. Yeah. There.Michael Jamin:And there's Tom Martin. There's Tom Martin. Oh,Stephen Engel:Tom. Right

Apple recently announced the huge news that both Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro are coming to the iPad on May 23rd, 2023. Ashley Xu was one of the few people that got to use Final Cut Pro on the iPad before it was officially announced by Apple, and she was featured in the official introduction video of Final Cut Pro for iPad that you'll find on Apple's website and YouTube channel. You can find her work on TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram under the handle "AshHasACamera". In this episode, we dive into how she got her start and her work in general, and then we do a deep dive on all things Final Cut Pro for iPad.Bonus content and early episodes with chapter markers are available by supporting the podcast at www.patreon.com/ipadpros. Bonus content and early episodes are also now available in Apple Podcasts! Subscribe today to get instant access to iPad Possibilities, iPad Ponderings, and iPad Historia!Show notes are available at www.iPadPros.net. Feedback is welcomed at iPadProsPodcast@gmail.com.Linkshttps://ashhasacamera.mehttps://www.tiktok.com/@ashhasacamerahttps://www.instagram.com/ashhasacamera/https://www.youtube.com/@ashhasacamerahttps://youtu.be/0mqWw5UH1qg?t=66https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro-for-ipad/Chapter Markers00:00:00: Opening00:01:38: Support the Podcast00:02:01: Ash Xu (@AshHasACamera)00:02:21: How you got your start?00:03:50: Commercials00:04:17: Painting00:05:05: The community00:05:42: Baking and cooking?00:06:59: Developing the technique00:07:51: Audio?00:09:29: Music00:10:22: Other platforms00:10:46: Your style of video00:12:06: MacBook Pro as a backdrop00:13:10: Stop Motion Animation?00:14:07: 10 Years from now?00:15:08: What are you most proud of?00:16:37: Final Cut from Day 1?00:16:55: Gear?00:18:16: Multicam setups?00:18:34: MacBook Pro00:18:52: iPad?00:19:32: Final Cut Pro for iPad00:21:40: Magic Keyboard?00:21:52: Jog Wheel?00:23:37: Does your workflow translate over to iPad?00:26:47: Apple Pencil00:29:30: Multicam00:30:53: Fast Cut Automations00:31:09: Scene Removal Mask00:33:32: Auto Crop00:34:25: Voice Isolation00:35:43: Titles, Backgrounds, Music00:36:49: Music?00:37:13: Color Grading00:38:02: Motion Templates00:38:50: Camera inside Final Cut and importing media00:40:39: Keyframing00:42:10: File Formats00:43:58: Exporting00:44:44: Is an iPad in your future?00:45:55: Where can people find your videos?00:46:26: Closing Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, the PIC are trying something new...VIDEO! So we don't have a guest, but we do have two triumphs to celebrate! First, Steve talks about the great time he had at John Faye's amazing book release party for "The Yin and the Yang of it All" at the Ardmore Music Hall. Then, Chrissie celebrates 10 years of Jenkintown Dance Arts! It's a short and sweet episode that Steve spent way too long editing in Final Cut Pro, so enjoy the Multicam because that may not happen much in the future! LOL. ━ Video Chapters ━━━━━━━━━━━ 00:00 Intro Music - We're Gonna Be OK, Basil Khan 00:55 We're Trying Something New 02:45 John Faye's Book Release Show! 17:02 Chrissie Celebrates 10 Years of JDA! 24:26 The Wrap Up! 25:43 Outro Music - Rescue Party, E.Joseph ━ Topics Discussed ━━━━━━━━━━ - The Yin and the Yang of It All (now in audiobook form!) - https://www.amazon.com/Yin-Yang-All-RocknRoll-Mixed-Race/dp/1642257435/ - Jenkintown Dance Arts is 10 Years Old! - https://www.jenkintowndancearts.com - Party at JDA Day on May 13th! ✅ Subscribe to the Pod http://partnersincrime.show ☕️ Support the Pod http://jenkintownartsgarage.com/coffee

Missy Ozeas is a camera operator and energy healer who helps creatives work through their blocks and find their inner peace. If you're a creative struggling to sit down and do the work required to be a pro, you won't want to miss this podcast.Show NotesMissy's Website: https://www.missyenergyhealing.com/Missy's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/missyenergyhealing/Missy's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZpw2lIbdJzRlnhcsdWSK4wMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMissy Ozeas:I had never seen an a fiat ever in my entire life. And I was going to buy an electric car. And so I'd never seen a fiat. Then I went to go drive this fiat and it was like orange, right? And, and the next day I drove to work, I saw five orange fiats. Right?Michael Jamin:But that'sMissy Ozeas:Because it, my reticulate, ac reticular activating system said, oh, orange fiats are important. So my mind saw them where they didn't see them before. It's not that there were more, it's just that I saw them. Same them,Michael Jamin:Right? That's a really good example.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. So same with any of us. What do we wanna focus on? That's our choice that we can control.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. We got a special podcast today. They're all these special, but this is my friend Missy. And Missy. I'm gonna make you famous today.Missy Ozeas:Alright?Michael Jamin:That easy you do. All you do is come on the podcast. I'm make you famous. Hello and Missy, let me just tell you what I tell everyone what she's done. So she, I met her years ago. She's a camera operator. Well focus puller technically on just Shoot Me. But she was also working at the same time. Cause that was only like a two day week job. Same time working on friends where my wife was working as an actor. So you knew both of us separately at the same time, I believe, right? Missy?Missy Ozeas:Well, actually I did not work on friends or just shoot me .Michael Jamin:What are you talking about? Oh, different show we worked on. I thought it was on Just Shoot Me. We met. I,Missy Ozeas:No, I mean I was working during that time. I forget what I was on then, but I think I met you. I don't know how I met you. Michael Jamin:Go together. I thought it was just shoot me. Was it? Oh,Missy Ozeas:You know what I think it was was. Oh, Jenny Garth.Michael Jamin:You think it was what?Missy Ozeas:Jenny Garth?Michael Jamin:No, I wasn't working on. Oh wait. But that wasMissy Ozeas:Way later. Yeah. But that,Michael Jamin:But we were working on something before that together.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Boy, this is called No Memory, but I think I met Cynthia first from preschool.Michael Jamin:No, no, no. You worked with her. No. Yes. What kind of introduction were you doing today? .Missy Ozeas:Oh my God.Michael Jamin:I dunno how we know each other.Missy Ozeas:We know each other a long time. Let's put it that way.Michael Jamin:And a lot of TV shows. Well, all right, let's just talk about your beginning. I know you went to USC film school, right? Yes. And then you, what, what was your intention when you went there?Missy Ozeas:Yeah, so I actually, I wanted to be you Michael. I wanted to be a writer. When I first, well, first I wanted to be a director, and then I wanted be a writer director. Then I just wanted to be a writer. And then I said, forget it. I, you know why? Because it's too solitary for me because I, I love for me Michael Jamin:Because TV writing is not solitary. But you didn't know anything at theMissy Ozeas:Time. I didn't know. Right. I only knew about feature writing. That's true. Right? I didn't know about a writer's room, cuz that looks fun. But yeah, so feature writing, that's what I wanted to do. And then I realized I couldn't, it wasn't my personality to sit at my computer and write by myself.Michael Jamin:You wrote a, I'm sure you wrote a lot of scripts in college, I mean, in film school, right?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. And one of my scripts was made into a senior project. So I think five get picked and then, yeah. One of my scripts got picked. So that was fun.Michael Jamin:And then you, I mean, in film school, like I always describe film school as basically a trade school. You learn all the trades, right? Yes. And so you learned, obviously all this about camera. You learned everything about cameras. But then, okay, so at what point did you decide I want to go into, you know, be behind the camera that way?Missy Ozeas:Well, okay, this funny thing is, I don't consider myself even to this day having been in camera forever. I'm not very technical, Kate. So don't tell anybody that , because I used to be in charge of like fixing the, like, camera goes down. I had to fix it. Right? I am not that. Okay. So in college I realized that was my thing I was most scared about. So I have a tendency to jump into the thing that I'm scared about, which actually it can help. So I was most scared about tech. So I decided to work in the camera stockroom where I would have to learn everything about a camera and lights and everything because I was afraid of it. So I did that. And then I got my hands into that. And then one day somebody had me work on their skin film and they said, Hey Missy, when that guy walks from here to here, move this camera lens from here to here. And I'm like, okay. So I did that. And weirdly, from that point on, people in school thought I was a camera assistant and they would call me to do all their assisting. And then once I graduated, I actually worked in development at Disney and Oh,Michael Jamin:That as Yeah, like an executive?Missy Ozeas:No, I was like just in the like entry level assisting Okay. A development head at Disney.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Missy Ozeas:And actually I hated it cuz I didn't like to pick up phones and wear a dress and I just did not like it. Yeah. And on the weekends, people who had graduated ahead of me started calling me like, oh, I have this music video, do you wanna come be my camera assistant? I was like, sure. And then they're like, we'll pay you a hundred bucks. And I was like, Ooh, a hundred bucks. Okay. So yeah. So I just remember one night I was like in a truck and we were pulling focus and we were crashing the truck into a fruit stand in the middle of the night. I was like, man, this is so fun. Wow. I wonder if I could do this for a living. And that's when I quit Disney and I decided to be a camera assistant.Michael Jamin:. What people don't realize and they shouldn't realize, it's like, so you have a, there's, there's various people who work literally behind the camera. And the the, what you did was pull focus, meaning you were li you had, I guess it's usually at a cable or now it's probably remote, but you are literally deciding what the, you know, the focus is, but somebody else is actually moving the camera. And sometimes you have a third person actually pushing. Yeah,Missy Ozeas:Yeah. For sure. Yes. If that's how we do it, . Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And so it's like, it's a, it is real, it's real teamwork. But, and so what were some of the jobs and I, okay, I know you started in features. What are some, what are the, some of the features and, and TV shows that everyone would've known that you worked on?Missy Ozeas:Okay. So you won't know any of the features I worked on cuz they're all really low budget. Okay. But the, so I worked on last man standing with Tama. I worked on the ranch with Ashton Kucher. Mm-Hmm. , I worked on baby daddy. Right On that one I worked on let's see, my wife and kids. Mm-Hmm. I worked on there's so many I can't even rememberMichael Jamin:So many. Cause we have a couple together. We don't apparently remember what they were, but but yeah, but then, and working on a multi-camera show, which is like shot on a sound stage, which we like friends, which I, or just shoot me, which . Apparently one of us worked on one of this. But, but yeah. And that's a, that's actually a much easier life as opposed to being on a single camera show. Don't you think? At least for you guys it wasMissy Ozeas:Oh yeah. And in fact that I just got lucky that I ended up meeting somebody who hired me to work in sitcoms Right. When I was wanting to get pregnant. So I actually by accident got into sitcoms and then I was like, whoa, wait, I don't have to build my camera every day. I don't have to travel all around the world. Which was great, but not if you're gonna have kids. Yeah. And you know, I build my camera one time and then it's like a family. You stay there for months and months mm-hmm. and butMichael Jamin:Even still, it's only a part-time job because when you're on a multi-camera show, you're working, let's say Thursday, Friday, right?Missy Ozeas:It is. But so I would always have two shows. So I would work four days a week and that was perfect. Like, I worked pregnant, both pregnancies, I have two kids. I work pregnant , I nursed on set. I did like everything. I don't know, I dunno how I did it. Michael Jamin:How did you get into the union? Because that's not an easy task. And what is, it's II right?Missy Ozeas:Yeah, it's local 600. And I got in, in those days you just have to have a hundred paid days. So I would collect call sheets and I, that's where I did a whole bunch of low budget.Michael Jamin:That's what you, that's all it is. A hundred paid days on any kind of shootMissy Ozeas:At. I don't know if it's that true anymore. This is a while ago . But that's all I hadMichael Jamin:To do. I think you just have, you would just show your call. It seems like call sheets could be easily forged, right?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Well they somehow believed it. It, I I'm sure it's different now. I don't know. But that's all I had to do then.Michael Jamin:And then you did. And then what, okay, so one thing, you were around, you were around stars during rehearsals, you're around, I mean, what, you know, what did you see? How did you see your, from your end? I mean, I always thought when we were put on a show on for example, just shoot me or any, my multi-camera shows, we'd stage a show and then how the crew would react during the first day of rehearsal was everything. You know? And because you guys were seeing it for the first time in rehearsal and if you guys are laughing, it's good. And if you're not laughing, we have a problem.Missy Ozeas:Well, okay, so that's funny. So we had a show concept that that like, okay, so I've been on work so much in comedy, that takes me a lot to laugh.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Missy Ozeas:So, you know, you're pulling focus and you're right there, like you're eight feet away, 10 feet away from the actors. Like you're really close to them and you're watching them rehearse and you're doing everything. And then, you know, they'll do a joke and you're like, mm. You know, I didn't really laugh, but then the joke was like, oh, Missy laughed.Michael Jamin:Right?Missy Ozeas:Okay, that's, that must be funny. So . So that, that was good. But we would watch, you know, some of it, like Tim Allen, he's great. He will improv, he will try things. Right? Like that was kinda interesting to watch the actors and the writers together. Like to me, like how they navigate that, I guess how they navigate. I guess Tim could probably do it cuz he's a big star. But he will definitely say, oh that worked, that doesn't work. And then he'd make it funnier or they do something together, they collaborate. So that was always fun to watch how that happens behind the scenes.Michael Jamin:And then how, when, how would you get work? Like how does that work for a camera operator?Missy Ozeas:Well I got lucky because I worked with the very first DP basically that I worked on in sitcoms. Don Morgan. I worked with him my entire career.Michael Jamin:Wait, you didn't have any other dps youMissy Ozeas:Worked with? I did have other dps when there were off times or maybe my second show, but literally my entire career is thanks to Don Morgan.Michael Jamin:Right. And that's kind of how it goes, right? Us usually DP is director of photography and then they're, they're hired and then they, they basically pick their crew, right? Is that how it usually goes?Missy Ozeas:Yes. Yeah. And I just feel super thankful cuz he's like a, the nicest guy. He's very talented and he just kept working. I got lucky every time he worked I get to go with him. So,Michael Jamin:And then how would you get other jobs? They, you know, that, that weren't through him.Missy Ozeas:Because the sitcom world is so small and so if you think about camera, it's the same group like you probably saw in all your shows. It's kind of the same people. Yeah. So,Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. But it's, you know, it's funny cuz you know, working on a multi-camera show is very different from a single camera show. Now, often people float in and out. I mean, at least I'm, I was on low bitch budget shows a lot, so, you know, people would just jump a minute. They get a better offer. .Missy Ozeas:Yeah.Michael Jamin:But then, and then was it hard for you because le well maybe you didn't do this, but I always felt for people, especially crew members who sub in for a day or two, they don't know anybody, they just jump right in. You know,Missy Ozeas:Okay, this is gonna sound funny, but I rarely, I hate day playing. Okay. So this is just me. And I mostly didn't day play mo mostly cuz I didn't really like it. And I, I was always busy. I I really worked a lot, but like, regularly with the same crew. Right. So I guess maybe I was lucky I didn't do it very much. I didn't have to, but I know a lot of people do and it's great because that's, that's great. They're professional. Like anyone could jump in. Like if I got sick, I knew I could call these, these people. They could jump in and do it. It's the same job. It's just that as a focus puller, you have to get used to, okay, what does your camera operator like? Because you're not just point focused and sitcoms, you're also zooming. So you, you're in charge as the actor moves, you've gotta zoom out, you know, so you stay in the frame or what is a, a single look like for this DP or this operator versus that one you different or what is we know, oh, this director's coming in. This director likes, you know, really tight singles. So you just have to know, oh, that guy likes that, or this person likes this.Michael Jamin:And do you, and you take notes though, during the run through, right? So, you know,Missy Ozeas:Yeah. We, we take notes and, and then I, what I love is I was mostly on the center camera. So the center cameras are the ones that have more movement and they're the, you know, the wider shots. Right. And to me, that's what I love because you pretty much don't even look at your notes. You just looking at that mon and you're just doing it all intuitively. Like that's what I loved. That's what I thrived at. I was bad at technical, but I could in use my intuition to just keep everything in frame. Like, that was so fun. That to me was fun.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I, that's so interesting. I remember when I was working on Maron it's a single camera show. And, and it was working on, on loca, on set where, you know, on location it was like some cramped like living room or something. Yeah. . And I was running the show and I was my partner and I remember like, I was hunched over the camera cause I couldn't see, I like video village was somewhere far away. I wouldn't be on set. And, and I was hunched over the guy pulling focus. He got so mad at me. He was like, get off the to go.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sometimes we have to share like that. Occasionally we have to do that with the director. And you're kind of like, well, okay, wait, I need to see too. Yeah,Michael Jamin:You need to see too. Right. I knows upset. I was like, I don't wanna fight. File a grievance against me. It's like I, no,Missy Ozeas:It's, it's because you know what, it's like you're in his office. If you think about it, this is my, my Apple box and my monitor, my focus point. This is my Apple. I knowMichael Jamin:This is his an office. And, and the way I felt was like, well this is my set. .Missy Ozeas:Yeah, yeah. Right, right. That's true. .Michael Jamin:No, but we were, yeah, we were at odds. But I made sure I stayed away from him after that. But after I was like, I don't have the guy, you know, getting calling, calling the union on me or something. But but okay. And so you did, and so mostly you did sitcoms. You didn't even do a lot of dramas,Missy Ozeas:Right? Nope. I want, see, once you get in sitcoms, especially if you're a parent, I think mm-hmm. , it's like, it's so I don't wanna say easy, well, kind of easy in that like physically it's easier on your body cuz everything's built and you just come in and it's like a family. I loved it.Michael Jamin:We're talking about multi-camera cuz single camera's a whole different thing, right. For you.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. That that's not that fun to me.Michael Jamin:And, and now there's very few single camera shows. Especially coms rather.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, that's true. I mean, so yeah, that's true. ItMichael Jamin:Really isn't. I mean, so we, cuz I wanna talk about, so I understand why you got into the business and I know you started transitioning outta the business. And so what, what motivated you? Like how did, what was that like? What did you, when did you know it was time ?Missy Ozeas:This is how I knew it. Well, I've been kind of bored, I think. But I didn't admit it to myself. And I think we can get complacent. Like we can just say, well this is a good life. And I did, I still loved it, but part of me was bored and then I realized like, you can ask people who work with me. I'm spending a lot of time talking to people about their problems. like, and then it's like, oh, okay, wait, I better get back to my camera and find out what's going on. So I would talk to a lot of people about their problems. I was like, Hey, this is kind of interesting, like what, why is that? And then one day on the ranch, the director came up to me and he said, oh, I mean he is really nice. He's like, okay missy, you know it's time to move up. What do you wanna do next? And like he, he was really kind, that was really nice of him to say. Right. and then literally I think my mouth was like no. And then I was like, whoa, that's super rude. But that's actually what I felt is like what I actually was, I think what was going through my mind was no way in hell do I wanna like learn another trade, uhhuh or even stay in this and really any longer.Michael Jamin:But that hadn't occurred to you cuz you at that point, well you've been working as a, in, in camera for, I don't know, 20 something years or more, right?Missy Ozeas:Yep.Michael Jamin:Yep. It, it hadn't occurred to you that you wanted to do something different before that or you know, you, eh,Missy Ozeas:Kinda, but you always get wheeled back in, reeled back in because it's like your whole crew is like, oh, we've got another season on this, or this got a pickup. And it's like, you're kind of going with that tide. And I felt lucky that I was able to do that. Right. And then it's like, why would I, there's not that many spots as a focus puller in Multicam. Why would you give it up? So those sort of beliefs of really it's scarcity or, and also just being scared to even find what the other thing is that you want. Because I didn't know what I wanted. That's the other thing. I didn't even know what I wanted to do. So it was hard to say, I'm gonna leave to do what I don't know. ButMichael Jamin:If you had, like, let's say a camera up was, was sick, you could have stepped in that day, right?Missy Ozeas:Yes. And okay, that was the other thing that was happening is people were saying, okay Missy, it's time to move up, be a cam operator. But I had zero interest in that and that, that I did know. I was like, Ugh, okay then that means I'm gonna have to go back to square one and start working you know, on maybe lower budget things as a cam operator. Well, maybe, maybe not, but I just, it just didn't, it wasn't a hell yes. It was more like a, ugh, that's all I can say.Michael Jamin:, you're, you're in this creative business creative field and you were just stagnating and, but you were okay with that. I mean, you, it was, you didn't wanna do anything different.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, I didn't know what that would look like. What would that be? I didn't know, but I just knew it wasn't that. So, so actually that's a really good point. I didn't, I had clarity about what I didn't want. I think like, okay, I know I'm getting to the end of this, but I had no clarity on what I wanted. Right. But I actually wantedMichael Jamin:And then, and then how did you find that clarity?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. So after I said no to the director, I was like, Ooh, that was weird. Okay, I better examine that. So I went back to my meditation. WasMichael Jamin:He insulted by the way? Was he like,Missy Ozeas:I dunno, he's like a nice guy. I don't know. I, me, I don't know. I never went back and asked him that , right. But yeah, so I went recommitted to my meditation practice, which I had before. And then I just ask every day my meditation, like, give me an answer like what am I supposed to do? ButMichael Jamin:Lemme ask you this though before you go on, because I meditate as well and I, you're not sup I always feel like you're not supposed to think when you're meditating. Like, I don't understand people who say I ask myself when you're meditating.Missy Ozeas:Okay, so this is, that's a great question. So, so I had heard, and I now I really believe this, that if you ask the universe a question by law, it has to answer mm-hmm. . So it will give you an answer whether that's a voice. I mean, you wouldn't think it's a voice in your head, it could be somebody else talking to you and giving you an answer. You read something, you get some kind of answer. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna try that. So I would set the intention at the beginning of the meditation, Hey, during this meditation, by the way, can somebody tell me what I'm supposed to do next?Michael Jamin:But at that point, when your mind wanders, you're supposed to get back to focus on whatever your, the breath or whatever it is you're focusing on. So,Missy Ozeas:Well I have sort of a thing about that. I don't think there's one right way to do meditation and that might just be me, but I think it's going inward is the point going inward and whatever. So, so some of the, like they say the monkey mind, the thinking that's actually just needs to get out. Like the more we try to like control it, the more it's gonna try to get in there. So part of it is just letting those thoughts come and then letting 'em go.Michael Jamin:And then what, because I, because when I'm, if I'm meditate, I'm thinking about, oh, I gotta balance my checkbook or whatever it is, you know, then I think my, nope. Get focus back on, don't, we're not, don't be distracted. Get back on the path of whatever that is. And so I don't understand how we, if you are waiting to hear an answer during your meditation, I don't understand how that's supposed to work.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, well I didn't quite understand either until it happened, but what I will say is it's a process and it's different for every person. So when they say you have to meditate this way and you have to do this, this, I don't think so. I think you could be walking and that could be a meditation, like for like some people walk better. It's really just getting into a deeper part of your mind. So you could say it that way or you could say connecting to your higher self. Like there's just different ways to say it, but you're really getting deeper than that surface stuff. Like, I have to do my checkbook or I have toMichael Jamin:Do that. Are you, are you thinking or are you trying not to think?Missy Ozeas:For, for me,Michael Jamin:Yeah.Missy Ozeas:For me, when I go to a chase station, actually I'm not trying to do anything. And I think that's might be the key is I'm just, whatever's coming up, I'm kind of sitting there open to whatever's coming up.Michael Jamin:So you ask yourself, so you set an intention and are you are, what are you, are you walking? Are you breathing? Are you sitting? What are you doing? ForMissy Ozeas:Me, I do, I'm better sitting. So I meditate right? When I wake up in the morning, I meditate at the end of the day and Okay,Michael Jamin:For how long?Missy Ozeas:It's different every time. I have like 30 minutes. It's 30 minutes or less at the beginning. And then at the end of the night it's much less Uhhuh . But youMichael Jamin:Close your eyes.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, I close my eyes and you'reMichael Jamin:Sitting in a chair.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, I'm sitting up. Oh, in my bed or somewhere. But I, you sit up usually. Right? And then I have my own process of getting in. And that's the thing is also you could use a guided meditation.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What is your pro, I'm cur Can you share what your process is?Missy Ozeas:Yeah, so I actually call, okay, so now it's gonna get kind of woowoo here, but I call in, so I put my hand here cuz like the high heart. So it's like a touch point. And I call in basically my spirit guides because I believe that we all are guided, however you wanna call it. We have beans that help us gotta get out there. But so I call them in and then I just sit in my meditation and I also do a lot of work for the future . Okay, that sounds weird, but I do a lot of like if my daughter is having something going on, like, or okay, just say my daughter has a job interview, then I will do some energy work around my daughter making sure she's sc grounded, she's safe and she has really good job interviews. So it's a lot about outcomes. Like, or also I do a lot of envisioning of like, what would be the highest outcome, you know, this or something better. So I do a lot of work where I envision what I want and then it going well. Things I should, that's so manyMichael Jamin:Things like that. I'm gonna interrupt you for just one second. Get back on it. So I should mention, you got out of working on set and now you are a healer and this is how you help people. So yeah. , this is why, why you know so much about this, but okay, so let's say you're, let's say your daughter's going on an interview and you're trying to help her Bryce setting an intention. And by the way, you helped me about with something. So I'm gonna talk about that in a second. But, so she goes out on interview and you're trying to, you're setting, setting out this energy, hoping that it goes well, but let's say it doesn't.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. So, okay. So that's a really good point. So to me, so I'm an energy healer. So what I do is I work with the energy in a person. So every person has an energetic field and inside that field it are beliefs, like limiting beliefs, right? Trapped emotion. There are all these things in here. So I'll get back to how this works. So basically as a healer, a heal to heal really just means to balance. So you're re helping somebody rebalance, but it's also like a handshake. So I can offer a healing to you, but it's up to you if you want to take that handshake mm-hmm. . And that's the first thing. So you have to want to accept it. And you might say, well, okay wait, are you talking to your daughter? Are you talking to this person? This is on a different, it's like everybody. So I believe we are a spirit with a body. So this is spirit to spirit work. So if my daughter's spirit doesn't want to accept that, that's fine, right? I can't force anything on anyone. And that is exactly how it should be. So there'sMichael Jamin:But is she aware that you're doing this for her or no?Missy Ozeas:No. Oh, it depends. Like sometimes people ask me, so the work I do, people are actually asking me, oh, can you work on this? Can you work on that? And if I send a healing quote, send a healing to somebody, it's just me extending it out and then it's up to their spirit if they wanna take it. Because we never wanna take somebody off. What is, so you asked what if it didn't go well, that's, that's because it wasn't meant to be right? It wasn't, that's her, that's for her. Cuz we always say this or something better and something better to us, we might say, oh, she didn't get that job. That must be terrible that that's a bad thing. But what we don't really realize is that was probably the best thing she wasn't supposed to get. That there's something better or it saved her from something. Rejection is protection. Mm-Hmm. you know, or, or redirection.Michael Jamin:But does she, I guess I'm asking does she have to buy in for it to work?Missy Ozeas:No. So that's a really good question. So a lot of times also I work on people who are babies. So they didn't buy in, right? They, or they're not physically understanding. Or if somebody is sick, like say you have a parent and they're like, you know they're unconscious or something, you can still work on an offer of that person and it's up to that person's spirit, whether they not wanna take it or not. So no, you don't have to consci because it's not same as therapy. Like when we're in therapy, we're talking about it and it's about our mind. This is deeper than the mind. So you don't, you could be, you and I could work together and you could be sleeping and I could still work with you because I'm working with your spirit, not with Michael. Y your personality.Michael Jamin:And then how do I know? How do I know if it worked then if I'm, if I'm asleep?Missy Ozeas:Oh, we, yeah, well cuz you'd kind of watched the outcomes. You, so you'd watch for outcomes and you, so, so example is like if we looked at you, Michael, and we said, oh, okay Michael, like if you said, you know, or we say we have a screenwriter, a young screenwriter who's coming up really wants to sell this screenplay. But if I looked in his field, it, I saw something that said, you know, I'm not good enough. Like maybe there were three and something happened and they have that belief I'm not good enough. Well, it's gonna be really hard for that person to sell that screenplay because they're going to feel, well I'm gonna turn it in, but it's probably not good enough and they're gonna approach with that energy. Right? So wait, I don't know if that answered your question, WellMichael Jamin:No, it's interest. Cause I wanna, it's funny, I, I worked, well you worked with me. So I think it was a couple years. I know it might have been two, twoMissy Ozeas:At least, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. And so I was just, I was in this space where I'm writing this book and it was just at the beginning of this book. And then you helped me and I wrote down, I have and I have them my notes what you wrote down. Oh actually it was, it says September. Well, I'm not sure if that's right, but you spoke to me about a couple of things and the ones that I wrote down were my voice is a gift to this world.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, wellMichael Jamin:That was a big one and that really meant a lot to me. And I really went off thinking about that a lot afterwards. And then the other one was, what lies am I telling myself? I think you said that as well. And then, but is that something you was that specific to me that, I mean that's good advice for everyone, but is that specific to me?Missy Ozeas:Okay, so the voice is, your voice gift is very specific to you. And would you say that with everything that's happened? So I've watched you and it's like so awesome. I just love it that, so I've seen you twice in your play or your readings, right? And I think that like I can, I'm sitting in the audience so I can feel what the audience, how they're reacting to you. And also I've seen you on social media like since the time that we worked together. You've really used your voice. It's super amazing. I'm not saying cause of the work we did, but I'm saying because you chose to do that. And even if it was scary, I don't know to you, you walk through that fear and that's when our manifestations come in, when we do the clearing and we walk through, you take action and walk through fear, which you clearly did. And you're clearly in alignment because a lot of amazing things are happening for you and you're using, you are using your voice.Michael Jamin:But I still feel, you know, it's funny to say, I still feel stuck sometimes. I still, you know, it is, it feels like it doesn't go away really, you know?Missy Ozeas:Well, and that's also, it's like I always say our energy's like an onion. So we did the work on what? So I ask your body what we, we ask specifically for whatever you were working on. Your body will show me those pieces that need to be released that are blocking you. But then the next thing will come up, right? And, and that's what we wanna do is then watch what's the next things that's triggering us and we're gonna know that's the next thing I need to work on. So we're always to work in progress.Michael Jamin:But then how do you, how do you know what these layers, the onion are for me? Is it in, are you intuiting it, are you like what you know?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Okay, so that's that weird thing. So I have this weird gift and, and where I can see energy and like when I was little I saw ghosts and stuff and I was scared of looking in the mirror because I would see things uhhuh, . But then I cut it off cuz I could tell that that was not appropriate. So I hid that part of myself, right? But after I started doing training, I, I started getting certifications and training in it. Then it, it grows right? Just like a muscle, right? You get stronger, you're a better runner the more that you train for it. So in training I was able to bring it out. So yeah, I can look at somebody and see where we a just ask your body a question cuz your body holds the key. It holds all these nonphysical elements of, of Michael in there.Michael Jamin:And, and so do you work a lot with, is it crea, is it everybody or is it mostly creative people or is it creative people? Like, you know,Missy Ozeas:I, I can I work with, I could work with anybody. I would say that mostly they're creatives, mainly because I came from that field. Like if I came from maybe corporate, I might work with corporate, but I don't work with corporate because that'sMichael Jamin:How they find you.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. some odd people in Hollywood. Yeah. AndMichael Jamin:Do you, so, okay, so you work mainly with creative people. Do you feel like they tend to have a certain, is there a similarity that you see with creative people? Like a pattern maybe? Yeah,Missy Ozeas:It's that their voice or what they have to say isn't good enough. It's, I guess most people have this, but really with creatives, it's this fear that what they have inside isn't enough. And that's what I love. That's why I love working with creatives because it is, we are all you being authentic. So you actually being totally Michael is the thing that draws people to you. And, and even when we, and then the thing is we start judging ourselves. That's the part about the lies that we were talking about with you. Yeah. Is is that actually true? Because you might perceive something through your own sort of wounds or things that happen when you were little. But the rest of us isn't, we don't see that we Right. We just want you to be authentically you. Cuz then that's interesting. We don't want like another copy of someone else.Michael Jamin:So you're basically saying it's imposter syndrome.Missy Ozeas:Yes. Everybody has.Michael Jamin:Yes. Pretty much has.Missy Ozeas:Yes. So it's uncovering what keeps you hiding, what is it?Michael Jamin:But is there anybody, this is gonna sound mean , but is there anybody who, like when you say like, your voice is a gift, is there anybody whose voice isn't a gift? You know what I'm saying? Is there, is there anybody whose talent doesn't measure up?Missy Ozeas:Well it depends. I would not say everybody's voice is a gift because they have a different gift. You have the gift of a voice that's very specific to you. But somebody else might have the gift of painting that's not a voice. That's their painters or their I don't know, you know, they can create a great house. They're they interior designer, right? Everyone has different gifts. And that is the thing about purpose. It's like if anybody here is looking for their purpose, it's what comes easy and natural to you. That's one piece. And that doesn't come easy and natural to other people and what brings you joy. And if you can put those things together, that is the, the, the sweet spot. And so for you, you, your voice, the what you have to say actually with the voice, what you're writing, all of that is what you're naturally good at. And then, well, I guess I would ask you, is it, do you like it?Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Well yeah, I mean, yeah, when you select my, my show, like that's, we're doing, putting more energy into that. It feels kind of important. But it does feel, it does feel like like it's, it's al it's almost crazy how much, like, what I want is, it is like the road is so long, there's so much building that has to go into going down this road. It almost feels crazy. Hey, that's,Missy Ozeas:That's different though. What about when you are doing it, when you're either riding it or when you're performing it, what is that? You knowMichael Jamin:What, right before I go on, you know, in that stage, every single time I go on, I can hear the audience chattering. The music comes on and I'm my heart, you know, I'm getting a little nervous and almost every single time before I go on, I go, why am I doing this ? But, and then, and I've asked myself that question a lot to a lot of different people. And I think the best answer I can come up with is because I can.Missy Ozeas:Because you can. Okay. What are you feeling like while you're doing it?Michael Jamin:You know, this is, you know, Cynthia directs it, so she's trained me a lot. I'm, yeah, I'm really supposed to be lost in it. I'm supposed to be in that moment. And sometimes if I slip out and I go, wait a minute, I'm not performing, I'm not in the moment, I'm not performing it now I gotta get back. I gotta be in that moment. And so I'm almost not really conscious of what's going on. I'm in it. And sometimes I think, I don't know, you've seen a couple of shows, but afterwards a couple pieces are very emotional and I could tell the people in the audience are almost thinking like, is he gonna be okay? , you know, I'm in it, it it,Missy Ozeas:But that's, but that's flow. Like, you know, we're in flow when we're so in it. I don't know, maybe when you write are you also in flow? You know, when it just starts, comes not that every moment is like that, but flow is also when we know that we're kind of doing the thing that we're supposed to be doing. Not everybody is in flow when they're writing. Not everyone can get up there and, and be in a character and, or I guess you're not a character, you're you. But yeah, be up there and be okay and be in flow. Not everybody can do that. That's the thing is you, so you're married to Cynthia who's an actress, so you might have this view and you work in Hollywood, so you might think, you know what, everyone can do this. No, that's a skewed view.Michael Jamin:. Yes. That's what I do think I do. I do feel like, well I work with a lot of writers who could do what I'm doing, but they just choose not to. And so, but you're right, it does, it does in many ways it kind of discounts it because it, it seems normal. I'm around people who do this kind of thing, you know? And so I don't really think, well, I it's not that special. We all can do it, you know,Missy Ozeas:And that's part of the lies, right? We wanna see like, is it a lie? Can everyone do this? No. Also we often discount what we're good at because it is so natural. Like I would guess that it's really easy for you to write, say you've been a writer for a long time, that not that every moment is easy, but you can write. So you kind of like, well that's not so special. I don't know, I've always done it or Right, I've done all, but no, it's not true. And that's true for a, you know, a tennis player or anybody. A lot of us discount what we're actually naturally good at because it comes so easy. And that's a great question to ask your friends or your spouse, like, well, what do you guys think I'm good at? If you can't figure out what you're good at yourself, ask somebody who knows you and they'll tell you.Michael Jamin:Yeah, see it. Yeah, I remember what, what's kind of struck me after doing a bunch of these shows and we're gonna do more again, I guess in the summer or the fall, something like that. But after I do these shows, people would come up to me and then they'd start telling me their secrets. You know,Missy Ozeas:. Okay. Okay. And how do you feel about that?Michael Jamin:It, it, it was shocking. It felt like an honor. It, it sometimes feel like, at first it was like, why are you telling me this? You know? . But, but I think it's because I just did the same, I had just done the same to them that they wanted to rec, they felt it was safe to, to reciprocate. You know? DoMissy Ozeas:You see that? No. It's so exciting. Okay. Do you see that's what I mean about your voice's gift because you are gifting that, that sense of vulnerability and safety that we see when you go on stage, then we feel that. And I've been in your things where I was crying actually. So I felt that. But then people telling you that means that you have created this space for somebody else to feel safe. To tell you that is a gift to, it's like a key to unlock. It's so another way we could say you have the key, you have a key to unlock that not everybody can do that.Michael Jamin:Right? That's another thing you taught me. And I, that's another thing which I really, for years you told me. I mean, yeah, your voice is your gift. And when I, when I heard gift for years, I'll think, you know, people say, oh, you're gifted, you're a gifted writer. I interpret that it as mean as like the universe had given me this gift and now I have it and now it's mine. And then you said that it doesn't have to mean that your voice is your gift could mean your gift for everyone else. Yeah. And that changed a lot to me. That changed everything. Cuz then it felt like it's selfish. If I don't give the gift, it's theirs. It's not for me, it's for them. Yeah. And then it takes, it, it really changed a lot because part of it, yeah, it felt like, well this is my obligation is to give this gift. It No, it's not. It's at first it felt like, well, okay, I have this thing and I'm, I'm almost like, is it showing off? Or is it, is it about me if I'm doing, if I have this gift and, and you're like, no, it's about, it's about them. It's for them.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. And, and, and the other thing I would say is, so when you were born, this is you, but this is everybody listening. You were actually, were given gifts, the gift of writing, the gift of insight, the gift of whatever all your gifts are specific to Michael. And then you are also given desires. So the desire for you to get your work out there or be on tour or any of that. Mm-Hmm. is actually the gift because that's how we know where to go is the desires and, and the the gifts that you were given. And then you give that. So it's a double gift. You were gifted and then you're gifting back out. And that's how all of us who have imposter syndrome should view it that way. It's not about us, it's not about the comparison. It's just about, oh my gosh, what gifts do I have? What feels good for me to give out? And then that's all. We don't even have to think about how it's re received. We just give it.Michael Jamin:That's, that's right. And it's cuz when we were, when Cynthia and I were, you know, working on the play my show and she's directing me at every step, we're always thinking, well I always, I always thinking, what else can I give the audience? What else, how else can I give them more? You know, that's another thing. People are paying whatever is 35 bucks for a ticket. I'm like, you, you gotta give them more like whatever. It's not enough because it's a lot of money, you know?Missy Ozeas:Oh. But then that's a belief in there though that, so that's interesting because that's almost like you're saying what I actually have my show isn't maybe enough.Michael Jamin:Right. Right. Yeah, I know.Missy Ozeas:And yeah, so, so that would be like kind of coming through like what's underneath that, like what emotions are underneath that? And then what age were you when you first believed that to be true? Because it's almost like, well I'm not sure if this is what it is, but equating $35 equals this, so it should be looked like this when actually you are priceless. You there isn't another person that's like my fault. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But, but you know how it is. Like, first of all, I'm asking people, okay, to buy a ticket. I'm asking 'em to take whatever, an hour and a half out of their day, their evening to get dress, go to the theater. It's a big ask. You know, park the car, get a babysitter. Maybe it's a big ask. And then nothing is worse than bad theater.Missy Ozeas:Okay. But that, so that's interesting you say it that way because I, as I, okay, so I have gone to the shows. I didn't think of it that way that you're saying. I was like, oh cool, I get to have an hour and a half or whatever time to not think about anything else. To just sit, immerse in a dark room listening to stories, feeling emotions without having to do anything else. So at that's very interesting that you feel it that way. And I don't, I didn't see it that way at all. You could haveMichael Jamin:Gone, there was a million shows you could have gone to that night, you know, if you wanted to sit in the dark and and experience a show.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. But I was excited to go to yours. I mean, and I think that that's the other thing to remember, free will and choice people, anyone who is in your theater, they chose to be there, right? So second guessing, oh no, did they choose to be there? Did someone make them be there? Do they not wanna be here? That doesn't actually help them because that's then you're maybe not giving your best performance. I guess what they came to see you, it should just be okay. I, they came to see me or they wouldn't be here. Cause yeah, they choose free will.Michael Jamin:That's something else Cynthia helped me with was like, I don't, I don't know which, which shows you came to, but at one point, maybe halfway through the run, Cynthia's like, you're not taking the stage the right way. I'm like, well how am I supposed to take the stage? She goes, you walk on the stage and you're a rockstar. That's what she wanted me to feel like. You've gotta feel like you're a rockstar. I'm like, but I'm not a rockstar. She, you are when you take the stage . And that was difficult, you know, to get that, to accept that it didn't feel humble, you know?Missy Ozeas:Ah, so also I've heard you say a couple things about that. So humble or is that selfish? So that's actually programming, right? So somewhere, and I'm not picking on you, this is like all no, I,Michael Jamin:This is helpful for me.Missy Ozeas:Things is that when we feel like, like that's bragging or I shouldn't market my show or I shouldn't, you know, I must be humble. That's actually somewhere, somewhere down the line we learned that our well basically that being who we are is too much kind of, or, or we learn like damp it down, tamp it down. And what good does that do? Like that doesn't that a lot of us were trained to dim our light. I mean, that's how we say it, right? Yeah. To be smaller bec in the name of being humble, but being humble really means throwing a lot of dirt on you so no one can see you. I mean like, that's how I see it. It's just like,Michael Jamin:But no one likes people who are, who are, who brag or who you know. Right. There'sMissy Ozeas:A difference though, between bragging and then inviting. Okay. So that's another way to think about. So if we think about selling, selling is like, please buy my thing. Maybe we might think like, oh look how great I am. See, but there's another version of that which is inviting, inviting you into your world. So you are, so that's another way you are inviting us to sit in your world with you for this amount of time. And I think it's fascinating. Like, it's fascinating to listen to your stories or learn a little bit more about your life or the way that you were thinking at that time in your life. Like, I wasn't like in your show, it's not like I'm sitting there like, oh my god, I'm like in it. I'm in it. Right? And that's what people want. Just like why do we go to the movies? We wanna escape, we wanna go into someone else's story. And that's a value, right? Well you right. That you gave us and if I didn't wanna go, I would just not buy a ticket. So if it helps you just know everybody wanted to be there.Michael Jamin:Right? But how do you clear that block? If that's something I deal withMissy Ozeas:The, oh well we'd have to ask your body questions. I mean, if you want me to, I could askMichael Jamin:Right now. I dunno, we're we're, this is, we're just talk. I don't make you gimme a free reading. I'm just No, no,Missy Ozeas:No, let's just do it for fun. I'm gonna ask your body right now. Okay. What is your question? Would you say it's about,Michael Jamin:Well what, yeah, what's my question?Missy Ozeas:Okay, so what do, so the block is I feel like I'm bragging or is it? Yeah.Michael Jamin:Okay. Right. Yeah. Am I not being humble? Yeah. Well people like me if I'm not humble maybe. Is that it?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Okay. Okay, so p people, so what is the root cause? So we can, so we do this way. What's the root cause of, of your belief that people won't like me?Michael Jamin:Well maybe it's cuz I don't like people who are not humble.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. But it kind of goes both ways though. It's a belief, right? You wouldn't see it. It be yourself and to other people. It that makes sense to me. So let, let's just see. Okay, so now this is where I get an idea of where it is. So this in your solar plexus. So solar plexus is right, be right here, right? You can see, say right below your breast bone. Okay. So what comes to me is feeling overwhelmed with all the shoulds and half dues in your life. So that's the piece and that, that came maybe like eight or nine years old. So one, do you recognize that feeling?Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. Everyone's gonna be lining up to, to, they're gonna wanna go to your website right after this and lineup to get, you know, reading from you. So we'll, I'll be sure to mention that. But well, you know, as a kid, sure I was an obedient kid. Whatever my parents told me to do, I, that was, that was what I did.Missy Ozeas:Okay. Do you remember anything specific around that age?Michael Jamin:Specific to exactly what?Missy Ozeas:So, so how so? Oh yeah. Okay. I guess this is say, so this belief or this energy of feeling overwhelmed with all the shoulds and the have tos, which is kinda like being in a box. Like we could say like, have I have to stay in here otherwise I won't be loved probably, or safe or loved. That feeling you trapped it right here in your body and your solo plexus at, around the age of eight or nine from a specific event. So how I could look is maybe something happened at school or with your parents, but a specific event if you can't recall it. Okay. So sometimes we're like, I can't remember anything. Well, it's okay, your body is telling me Right. That that is what it is. But I always ask, I mean, do you actually recall anything?Michael Jamin:I, I mean I, I do recall being in school and being very nervous about getting, doing my homework Right. Doing my, you know, get, you know, doing everything right. And it's funny, you know, it's funny. Oh,Missy Ozeas:Okay.Michael Jamin:I, I, my mother saves all like my, all my report cards when I was like six years old or first grade, I guess that's six years old. And on in en it said Michael's, the teacher wrote, he's very concerned about getting everything right. And he comes to me when he has an assignment, he keeps coming back to me to make sure he's doing it right. God forbid he does it wrong. , like, I was always checking with her to make sure I'm doing it right.Missy Ozeas:Okay. So do you still feel that todayMichael Jamin:To some degree Yeah.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Okay. So this is the, I know it's like, wait, what does this have to do with being humble? But it actually, your body's telling me it does. So it's actually the, the way I see it is that I have to act a certain way or I won't be loved. Right? I mean, so, so if I'm not, if I'm something that feels like bragging or I'm something else, I won't be loved. But it's based on being overwhelmed by half tos and shoulds at that young age. Mm-Hmm.Michael Jamin:. Right?Missy Ozeas:I mean, again, this is only part of it. I mean, likely there's a lot more, but I'm just asking for one pieceMichael Jamin:And what do I do? Do I meditate on that and try to release that?Missy Ozeas:No, you just get rid of it. Look, . Well that's, that's the work. Okay. So the work that I do then is I find what those specific pieces are right for you. And then I hold the intention to release it and then we, okay, so now it sounds kind of weird. Okay, so this is how I explain it. Your we're made of energy. So our physical bodies also have an energy field around it. And in that field, in the energy field are, are like these beliefs that stop us from doing what we want, really want with our lives. It's conditioning, it's family programming, all those things. And so we energy will move according to intention and observation. That's like something you can look up with. It's quantum physics, like Google, quantum physics. Mm-Hmm. , you'll see there's experiments and things that show if you look at something that it will change the outcome.Right? So by finding, so together we observe, like we find exact piece of energy where it is in your body, the ag, where when you trapped it and then it hold the intention to release it. And then we put new, like another belief in that's more empowering. Like for you it's like, it's almost like the opposite. It's you know, like I'm safe. I don't know, we'd have to find one for you that feels right for you, but it's like I'm safe to be me. I mean it's really kind of something like that. Just like feeling safe.Michael Jamin:But then how long, once you release it, how long could you expect it to stay released? Like doesn't it come back?Missy Ozeas:It depends. I mean, sometimes I have to work with people longer, you know, more than, that's why I mostly work with people for two months so that we can release and then we integrate and then we kind of do some work in between the sessions and then we do another session and then we really can clear something out. And also likely that's only one piece we found. I am feeling like there's more other ones besides that and they're all kind of together. Right. You know, tabled together. The other thing though, it informs you, it helps you. So we know overwhelmed with all the have tos and shoulds also can help you think about your life now, not just with writing, but do you actually feel overwhelmed? Are there a lot of things that you feel like should be a certainMichael Jamin:Yeah.Missy Ozeas:Or you should do things So it's,Michael Jamin:Yeah, I struggle with that a lot. What should I, am I supposed to be doing this? Am I supposed to be, I, you know, I was supposed to be doing something else when I was younger, when I was in my twenties, you know, I think people called it existential angst. Am I supposed to be doing this? Am I supposed to be doing something out? And that's how I called. That's how what I thought about it myself.Missy Ozeas:So it's actually trust actually, now that we really talk about it, it's really self-trust. So think about you when you were talking about when you were little and you would say, oh, is this right? Did I do it right? Yeah. That's outsourcing Right. Your own that it really, it should be like, oh I know I did this. Right? Right. But it's okay. You were little but you were outsourcing that to somebody else to show you. Is that right or wrong? Right. And so we could say today your the greatest thing you could do for yourself would be really to trust yourself. Right.Michael Jamin:Right. And that's hard for a lot of people I think.Missy Ozeas:Yes, absolutely. Yeah. This is not just for you. We're not picking on you today. No. This is a good message for everybody is that we trust the gifts we were given. We trust the moment in time and we take those actions that might be scary, but sometimes it's just discomfort cuz we've never been there before.Michael Jamin:So why do you think people give away that kind of agency? Is it becauseMissy Ozeas:A lot of it is programming. I mean Right. Like we are taught teachers know best. Yeah. Or maybe when you're even younger than the age that we found that maybe you were no, let's not pick on your mom and dad cuz they were trying their best, but maybe they real had the kind of authority parents where they're like, no Michael, just follow the, this is the right, this is wrong. Right. This is the way to do it. And you weren't given agency, you weren't given, you weren't asked maybe a choice. Oh Michael, do you like, do you wanna wear the red shoe today? Or the blue shoe. Right? So things like that take away our agency.Michael Jamin:But even now as an adult, why do you feel adult? Just cuz they're conditioned. I mean it seems like, it seems like it might be, well, if I don't let somebody else decide if I'm doing it right, I can't if I'm not doing it right. You know, why do people not, don't trust themselves, I guess is the right question.Missy Ozeas:I still think it's goes back to programming because we weren't taught to care or we weren't taught to trust ourselves. And that is actually the magic is when we just trust our gut. Yeah. Even when nobody, like I went from being camera assistant to be an energy healer. That is a very weird thing. I had to do a lot of clearing on myself cuz that's weird like that. Yeah. That's weird. So, but I had to trust myself enough to say, okay, everybody, nobody understands this, but I'm gonna do this because I know it's the right thing. AndMichael Jamin:That's a, that's very hard cuz then you're opening yourself up to judgment and and you're changing your identity.Missy Ozeas:Yes. But what if we didn't allow ourselves to be open to judgment? Because does it really matter? Because here's the thing is some people, okay, if I look at myself, some people are gonna say, oh my God, Missy, you're so crazy. Or That is weird. I don't get what you do, I don't like it. But then there were all these other people who I helped and who loved it. So you are never gonna please everybody. There's gonna be people who love your show, people who hate your show. Right. That's just fact. Right. Nobody's gonna always love us. So we have to trust. We might as well, okay, we're gonna go through this life. We're never gonna get everyone to agree on everything, so why not do what we love and just put that out there.Michael Jamin:But do you, it sounds like, I mean, it sounds like you do you, do you ever have any doubts about, I mean, , even though you convinced yourself what you just said, don't be, don't worry about being judged. Do you still doubt?Missy Ozeas:Absolutely. Like I, like, you know, like going on Instagram or doing like you do, that was inspiring that, I mean, since it was telling me a y a year before like Missy get on Instagram, I'm like, oh, you can't do it. Like, my stuff didn't even have my face on it. Yeah. I wasn't doing podcasts, I wasn't doing anything. So that was, I had to walk through fear. But, you know, what helped me was I knew I was helping people. So same thing for you, you know, you're connecting to audiences. You can see our fate. I think you can, right. You can see we're reacting.Michael Jamin:Oh, in the now I can't see a thing. Oh, you can'tMissy Ozeas:See anything .Michael Jamin:Also people were wearing masks, you know? Oh,Missy Ozeas:That'sMichael Jamin:True. But, but even still the lights were right in my eye. I couldn't see anything.Missy Ozeas:But do you know that, do you know that people, you must have got feedback. Do you IMichael Jamin:Could sense it. You could feel it. Like you could feel when people are in it, you know, you could, you could hear a pin drop, you know, or you could hear a laughter or you could hear the, you know, siren. AndMissy Ozeas:People tell you probably give you feedback after so that you know that you are making some kind mm-hmm. of difference or you're affecting people and that's amazing. It's your gift. That's your gift. And you're giving your gift and then, you know, it's okay. Another way to think of it, it's like say I, I came to your house and I gifted you this pen. Mm-Hmm. , I gifted to you. And I don't think about it anymore. It's not like I'm, oh, I wonder if Michael'

Terri Morgan is the Co-Founder and Lead Designer at Luma Touch, the creators of LumaFusion. She was last on episode 3 of this podcast. Since then, a ton of updates have been released for the app, including a huge one just this past week that added the Multicam Studio. In this episode, we dive deep into the Multicam Studio and touch on some of the other updates since we last spoke. Learn more about LumaFusion at LumaTouch.com.Bonus content and early episodes with chapter markers are available by supporting the podcast at www.patreon.com/ipadpros. Bonus content and early episodes are also now available in Apple Podcasts! Subscribe today to get instant access to iPad Possibilities, iPad Ponderings, and iPad Historia!Show notes are available at www.iPadPros.net. Feedback is welcomed at iPadProsPodcast@gmail.com.Chapter Markers00:00:00: Opening00:01:35: Support the Podcast00:02:02: Terri Morgan00:06:50: M1 iPad required?00:09:27: ProRes00:10:23: How do you use iPad?00:12:08: Mindly00:15:48: Your role at LumaFusion?00:20:12: What else has been added to LumaFusion over the years?00:26:34: Proxy video?00:29:05: External Monitors00:30:54: 200MB00:33:10: Trackpad00:34:32: Version 400:34:46: Multicam Basics00:38:25: Sync00:41:11: Editing Process00:44:40: The resulting MC clip00:46:59: The experience of multicam in LF00:48:04: Live Switching00:49:48: Anyone can use multicam00:52:32: M200:53:39: Other features in the works?00:56:56: 3D Audio00:59:17: Anything else?01:00:49: LumaTouch.com01:01:08: Closing Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Proton Pass: Neuer Passwortmanager angekündigt „Durchschlagender Erfolg“: Apple gewinnt erneut vor Gericht gegen Epic Ein WhatsApp-Konto jetzt auf mehreren Smartphones nutzbar IKEA präsentiert neuen 3D-Raumplaner mit künstlicher Intelligenz zur Gestaltung des eigenen Wohnraums Netatmo Rauchmelder und Kohlenmonoxidmelder jetzt mit Google Assistant kompatibel Apple Headset augenscheinlich bereit für die WWDC 2023 Twitter markiert ab sofort Tweets mit beschränkter Reichweite Netflix verliert in Spanien schätzungsweise 1 Mio. Nutzer durchs Vorgehen gegen Sharing Oppo Find N2 Flip: Software-Update bringt Spotify-Widget und mehr LumaFusion mit Multicam ist endlich da!

At NAB Show in Las Vegas,  Chris Demiris, Co-Founder and Principal Engineer and Terri Morgan, Co-Founder and Principle Designer from Luma Touch talk about the latest and just-released feature of LumaFusion, multi-camera editing on your iPad.  This edition of MacVoices is brought to you by the MacVoices Dispatch, our weekly newsletter that keeps you up-to-date on any and all MacVoices-related information. Subscribe today and don't miss a thing. Show Notes: Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon     http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:     http://macvoices.com      Twitter:     http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner     http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:     https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:     https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:     https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes     Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

At NAB Show in Las Vegas,  Chris Demiris, Co-Founder and Principal Engineer and Terri Morgan, Co-Founder and Principle Designer from Luma Touch talk about the latest and just-released feature of LumaFusion, multi-camera editing on your iPad. This edition of MacVoices is brought to you by the MacVoices Dispatch, our weekly newsletter that keeps you up-to-date on any and all MacVoices-related information. Subscribe today and don't miss a thing. Show Notes: Support:     Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon     http://patreon.com/macvoices     Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:     Web:     http://macvoices.com     Twitter:     http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner     http://www.twitter.com/macvoices     Mastodon:     https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner     Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner     MacVoices Page on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/     MacVoices Group on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice     LinkedIn:     https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/     Instagram:     https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:     Audio in iTunes     Video in iTunes     Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:     Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss     Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

Today is the first ever episode of Terpene Therapy that will be recorded on my new camera setup! I now have 3 cameras for capturing the people and products that come through to the satellite studio! One of my goals is to continue to improve the quality of this podcast! I mainly just wanted to check in and say hi this week! Also, I have some really cool episodes coming up soon! Make sure you stay tuned!I also have to talk about this clip I saw on Instagram the other day. There was a guy talking about developing a Terpene solution to be sprayed onto 25k lbs. of flower. To me, this is unacceptable and shouldn't be sold on the market! As a consumer, I wouldn't want to smoke anything that has been sprayed on with an solvent that is left to evaporate off the flower. It's an unnecessary waste of material that could have been turned into edibles! If the weed is bad/old/otherwise terp-less, reintroducing terps is just covering up what should be considered non-smokable. As time goes on and we have more freedom of choice as consumers, I really urge all of y'all out there to take a second to think about where your weed comes from. And if your plug can't tell you who grew it, consider a different route!   Today's Session Was Brought To You By: @wooksaucewinery x @abr_farms - Humboldt Honey Platinum Hash Rosin @wooksaucewinery x @abr_farms - Berry Crunch Platinum Hash Rosin @bearmountainstudios - Baby Geraldine - 10mm Micro RBR @highlyeducatedti - 10mm Control Tower Terp Sous Vide @ 920ºF Thank you for listening and please make sure you check out all of our social medias and subscribe to our YouTube and Patreon! https://www.instagram.com/terpenetherapypodcast/ https://www.patreon.com/terpenetherapypodcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIuE6pg63WB2dwZ--1SgTig/featured  DISCLAIMER: All cannabis on this podcast was purchased legally and all individuals pictured consuming cannabis are over the age of 21. Terpene Therapy does not condone any use of illicit cannabis, especially by any persons under the age of 21.Support the show

Michael Jamin sits down with good friend Chandra Thomas who was also one of the writers for the TV show series Mom. Learn about her experience working in Hollywood and on the show.Show Notes:Chandra Thomas IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1817889/Chandra Thomas Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chandrathomas/?hl=enMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated TranscriptMichael Jamin (00:00):Is the hustle never ends. ItChandra Thomas (00:02):Never, it never ends. Right. That's why I'm so not into the, the phrase break in, because I think sometimes people think like, once you break in, right? It's like glass. You break in the glass, no long, the glass no longer exists. You're in the space, it's over. But like, it's not . You have to carve is how I say. You have to carve in. Like there's constantly more material in front of you that you have to sort of, you know, make your way through.Michael Jamin (00:30):You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear this with Michael Jamin.(00:38):Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear the, I don't even know the name of the podcast. I screwed it up. Screenwriters need to hear this. It's, I'm gonna roll with it. And I got a great guest today. This is, this is Chandra Thomas and she's the, she was a writer for two Seasons on Mom before the show, before the show got canceled. It's not her fault though. Don't blame her. And then, and then I met her last year on, on Tacoma FD and she's amazingly talented. She's wonderful. And and she was also an actress. And you, if you, you should be wa everyone should watch this cuz you look at, oh yeah, she's beautiful. She's an actress. You could, you could see why she'd be an actress and, and, but she's gonna talk about her journey. Chandra, thank you so much for joining me on the showChandra Thomas (01:21):Chairman, on the ones, thank you for having me,Michael Jamin (01:26):Chandra. You don't know this, but if we were, because last year we were on Zoom, so all the writers were on Zoom, but if we were in person, I would've probably made you sit next to me. Every, every Chandra Thomas (01:37):.Michael Jamin (01:38):I'd be like, Chandra, what's going on over that guy? Or that, you know, we would be whisper like passing notes to each other.Chandra Thomas (01:43):I love that. It would've been like high school all over again. . It would've been great Michael Jamin (01:49):Ass. It couldn't do it. And I,Chandra Thomas (01:50):So one thing I just do wanna clarify, I was on the final season of Mom, so just one season, unfortunately on that show. But I absolutely loveMichael Jamin (01:57):Two season, so you definitely, yeah. So you was def definitely your fault then in this show? Oh,Chandra Thomas (02:01):So not my fault. I would've had that show run for another 300 seasons.Michael Jamin (02:05):You wanna keep that gravy train rolling. But I wanna talk about, I got so many questions for you.Chandra Thomas (02:10):Okay.Michael Jamin (02:10):And I know some of the answers, but most of 'em, I don't know. Cause I know, okay, I remember, I know you went, you graduated Vanderberg College. Was there always your ambition to be a writer or actor even in college?Chandra Thomas (02:20):So when I started at Vanderbilt university in Nashville, Tennessee I was like, not sure what I wanted to do, but probably law because I am a first gen, my parents are immigrants and like, if there's anything in immigrant parents gonna tell you is you gotta do law medicine, own a business or being engineer. And I didn't, I did not like the idea of like, somebody could die on my watch. So I was like, not a doctor , like, definitely not that. Engineer physics was a little rough for me, so I was like, no, thank you. And maybe would own a business at some point, but it sort of ended up being law was where I was sort of drawn to. AndMichael Jamin (03:03):Then what did you, who did you major in?Chandra Thomas (03:05):So then in my first year, in my first semester at Vanderbilt, I I was into theater just like mm-hmm. . I had done theater in high school and in middle school, and my parents had taken me see a ton of plays. I'm from New York, so we, you know, go to Broadway and see plays. And I just had this like, sort of like Thanksgiving revelatory moment where I was like, oh no, I, I wanna like be in theater. I wanna just be on stage and write stage and make plays happen. And so I came home and had to tell my immigrant parents that like, I was gonna do this theater thing, which they were like, what what does that even mean? That's not why we came to this country. You know, at first, now they're like literally the co-chairs of my fan club. They are incredible.(03:49):But so then I decided to double major in theater and sociology. So I got two bachelor degrees from Vanderbilt. And then when it was time to graduate, everybody was like, cool, let's go get jobs and do stuff like that. And I was like I know how to go to school, I'm gonna keep doing that. So I went to Columbia university in New York and got my M F A in acting. And so started working as an actor pretty immediately and very consistently. But at the same time was always writing, was always producing, especially in theater. Transitioned pretty quickly to sketch and improv was at the U C B A ton and then transitioned into indie film, indie short form content, digital shorts, and just really was like about storytelling. Most people sort of in immediately sort of knew me in front of the camera, but I was sort of always working on the other side as well. And soMichael Jamin (04:41):Were you writing for yourself inChandra Thomas (04:43):The long,Michael Jamin (04:43):Were you writing, say again? Were you writing for yourself when you were acting or were you just doing other people's work?Chandra Thomas (04:48):At first I was writing for myself, and then I think as like most theater practitioners do, I was like, I need to start writing for other people too. . Yeah. So I wrote a whole bunch of solo shows. I have a, like, ton of solo shows that I was doing all over theMichael Jamin (05:02):Place. And who were you staging theseChandra Thomas (05:05):Different places? Sometimes in somebody's living room, sometimes in the theater, you know, a lot of New York off Broadway, off off Broadway spaces,Michael Jamin (05:13):But So were they, were they one man show or like one woman show? Or is it, or youChandra Thomas (05:18):Know Yeah, solo a ton of, I did several solo shows. Yeah. I have one that's called A Rhyme for the Underground, which is, I play 17 and a quarter characters and it's set in the subway, the New York City subway system. So yeah, I was doing solo shows. Yeah, yeah,Michael Jamin (05:31):It's interesting. But then, okay, so then when you're even theater, were you booking because people miss this part? Like were you booking the, the theaters yourselves or were you pitching it to theaters? Like how, how did you put 'em up?Chandra Thomas (05:44):I, a mix of things like, so once I got sort of plugged into the sort of indie theater producer circle, we were putting up each other's work. I was putting up the work, I was submitting it to theater companies that were putting it up in some who'sMichael Jamin (05:57):Putting up the money forChandra Thomas (05:59):Ways,Michael Jamin (05:59):Who's putting up the money?Chandra Thomas (06:01):We, you figure you figure it out. , you're not, you figure it out. I mean, and who's putting, you know, sometimes for some of the who's, who'sMichael Jamin (06:11):Putting, who's putting all the butts and seats, who's selling, who's getting people to show up,Chandra Thomas (06:17):That becomes the artist's job. That's the big thing. Right? So in some theaters we'd be able to do like port, like proceeds from the ticket sales, right. You know, sort of split the box office is essentially sort of like the way people sort of shorthand it. And so that would be one way in terms of getting bus in the seats though, that would always fall on the artist. So you know, this is before sort of social media was as like readily hot as it is now to like, sort of share those kinds of things. So it became postcards and flyers and putting up posters in storefronts and Absolutely. Emailing friends and texting people to come. And so yeah, it was like a lot of literally gorilla marketing in the most purest form.Michael Jamin (06:58):How many seats are you talking about in these theaters? How big are they?Chandra Thomas (07:01):So most of these theaters are 99 and under, which is part of theMichael Jamin (07:06):Right equity waiver.Chandra Thomas (07:07):Mm-Hmm. , well, different in LA they call 'em waivers in New York, they're just theaters. Okay. so you can work under an equity contract. I know in LA these sort of like wave, like working under the union. That's not how we do things in New York. So it would be a special showcase contract is what it's called. And so you'd be able to sort of like, you know, like folks most, again, it was, most of us were like in each other's shows, so we would just sort of do the showcase code and, and and do the show. Yeah. And we'd do it under union rules, you know, as a showcase codeMichael Jamin (07:41):Production. What do mean, what, what does that mean under union rules?Chandra Thomas (07:44):Under equity actors equityMichael Jamin (07:46):Rules? Yeah. Well, what kinda rules are we talking about?Chandra Thomas (07:48):Oh, like, just making sure that like, there's a place for you to change your clothes , like, you know, put on makeup, essentially a green room or, and like , I'll come back in a second. And, you know like if you're being asked to do something that's way above sort of like the standard expectations of an actor that you would be under that's either under a different agreement or you'd be compensated appropriately for those things that we don't, you don't get paid necessarily at the minimum rate. Like, you may get paid in hugs or you may get paid in like, you know, a few dollars. So, you know, it's a, it's just sort of like very basic, just treat, you know, treat them like human beings, you know, treat us like human beings. Something. And the thing I was gonna say to come back to is like, for example, the like having a space to change our clothes. Like sometimes those were basements, like literally basements, just dank places. There are people now who are in, who are literally a lists on a lists for production, for studio features and like, people names that people would know that like me and them were doing basement theater. Like we're in between. During the intermission we had to go plunge the toilet cuz it was flooding in the middle of our shows.Michael Jamin (09:04):This is so important that people hear this because like, this is what, this is what breaking in looks like, you know, doing, starting from the bottom. People wanna start at the top. People was like, how do IChandra Thomas (09:13):Literally, the bottom art atMichael Jamin (09:15):The bottom,Chandra Thomas (09:16): literal bottom.Michael Jamin (09:17):So like, so for one show, let's say you put up a show, how many nights would you, would you have put it up for? Or just once?Chandra Thomas (09:24):If I were putting it up, it depends on what the show was. And depends on under what umbrella, because I was producing independently, but I was also producing because I had co-founded a nonprofit with teen girls who wrote and created their own productions, ro own shows speak from their authentic voices. And so if I was producing their work, we would usually have maybe or two to four night performance. Right. If I was producing sort of other work, the showcase code allows for 16 up to 16 performances. Okay. and so sometimes they'd be one-offs and other times, you know, they would have like a little bit of longer run. And if they were outside of the showcase code, if they were like the next tier up then, you know, you, we'd run for maybe four weeks,Michael Jamin (10:13):Four weeks. And then how many, there must have been times where you put up a show where, okay, you got a full house and then you only have a couple people sitting in the theater. Is that that, did that happen?Chandra Thomas (10:23):Absolutely. Very often as an actor, you know, whether it was something I was producing or somebody else was producing and I was an actor in one of those little tiny, tiny theaters. And often Friday nights were often rough nights to get people in. Because I guess like, sort of the, the, the thought is people are like not ready. Like, you know, they're, they like wanna unwind. They're not ready to be like outta play necessarily, or small theater play. Saturday nights were often our strongest nights. And there were definitely times where there were more people on the stage than there were in the audience. There's no that's like question.Michael Jamin (11:07):But that's great that you're saying all this. So how does this, this very humbling beginning, like how did, how did it help you? Because a lot of people would think, I'm not doing this. So how did it actually help you?Chandra Thomas (11:17):I am incredibly grateful for that time and mm-hmm. used so many of those skills now that I didn't even realize I was developing at that point. First of all, being able to work outside of, of a, a corporate structure to let people know what the ideas, what the message is, what the story is, is something that I like, I use all the time. Having to engage people, just even as simple as like getting a shop owner to hang a poster in their, in their storefront Right. Requires a, a sales pitch, a way to engage them that is a skill that I use now multihyphenate, which, you know, I sort of, I really proudly embraced is something that I learned and built then. And like, you know, still capitalize on those things now as an actor, being able to pivot in the moment and then taking that kind of skill into a writer's room. Like hearing things, being able to see what's the direction that everybody's got, you know, mo helping to move that train forward. Those were all things that like the, the, at least the groundwork for that was so laid during that time period.Michael Jamin (12:23):Right. So none of this is wasted experience. All of it was good. No,Chandra Thomas (12:26):None of it. One of one of my favorite mentors, she says none of it is wasted. It's all story. And so yes, it is like, like if nothing else, it's story for sure. Right,Michael Jamin (12:36):Right. And then, and then you said you had people you work with o other people in your circle and you're at bottom of this, the people, the bottom of the basement in your circle who went on to much better things, right? Oh,Chandra Thomas (12:47):Absolutely. Yeah. People who are serious regulars now, folks who are in, you know, movies that we're going to see in the movie theaters, in the Marvels, in the dcs and the all. Yeah, absolutely. No question.Michael Jamin (12:59):See, it's so interesting cuz people say to me, you know, on social media, they reach out and they, they think the goal, they think maybe you know, it, who's asked, can I kiss who, how do I get my hands, my script and Steven Spielberg's, you know, you know, a mailbox or whatever. And I'm like, the, that's not, that's not how you, that's not how you do it. You, you make a circle of friends, you make a community at the, at your level A and then you gr and then you work your way up. Everyone climbs up together. It's like a, you know. Absolutely. So interesting. It's, especially for theater now. How did, okay, so at this point you're writing, you're acting and then, and this is all in the New York. And then what, what brought you to la What, like, what was that like that jump and why did I kept sayingChandra Thomas (13:41):AndMichael Jamin (13:42):How many, how many years were you doing this, by the way? In New York?Chandra Thomas (13:46):. I don't, I will not give years cuz that will reveal age Michael Jamin (13:50):Or how many months?Chandra Thomas (13:52):Many more years than frankly anyone wants to admit.Michael Jamin (13:55):Okay. But it was,Chandra Thomas (13:56):It was a lot also, you know, was working in obviously bigger productions in New York. Right. you know, sort of major off Broadway houses was working regionally a ton working internationally as well. And then, you know, also was working in, in, in television, I, my first job on tv, I got a co-star on a law and order criminal intent. Right. I was a reporter, yes. Was so it was freezing cold, couldn't have been happier. And so, you know, I was working in studio features and daytime soap and primetime episodic, like the whole gambit. In terms of la I kept saying, something's gonna have to bring me to la Like, I, I just, I, it's no secret. I'm not the biggest fan of Los Angeles. And so I just kept sort of pushing it off saying that something was going to have to bring me to LA and then I sort of had one of these moments where like li it was Caic everything.(14:56):Everybody was like, you need to go to la like just randomly on the street I would see like things that, and people just telling me it, you have to go to la And I like, I had been fighting it for so long, but finally was like, this is a little too much to not pay attention to. And so I started by doing the bicultural in New York, but like being in LA a good amount. And then sort of realized I needed to be in LA more because I realized I wanted to be creating for television. And especially in comedy, which there's not that many opportunities to do that in New York. So I moved my base to LA in June of 2018. So I've been here what's that going on five years? Yeah. Now,Michael Jamin (15:46):But you didn't, did okay, but you were starting over when you moved to LA you had no network, right?Chandra Thomas (15:51):Not the total opposite . I came to like a huge net. Because I'd been working in theater and television and film for so long. I knew a ton of people here. I'd come to LA a good amount. So I'd built, you know, a, you know, a community here. And especially coming from the theater. So many playwrights that I know are in TV rooms, like so many. Yeah. So I came here like literally walked into a community in a way that I think most people sort of say, oh my gosh, that's not how you know LA works. But I was very fortunate to walk right into a very supportive society, if you will.Michael Jamin (16:32):But then what was that like then? Because I mean, you, you didn't walk into the LA theater scene. Like what, what, like what, what were you trying to do? What, what, you know, what was the fir what were those first months like then?Chandra Thomas (16:44):So, oh my goodness. What were those first months? First of all, I landed in my buddy's couch. Well, not couch. She had a whole second bedroom for me. So I had a very lush room situation. I found a place of my own within two weeks. Right. I started to when I look back on it, I realize this is what I was doing. I was sort of rebranding myself as a writer first.Michael Jamin (17:10):Right.Chandra Thomas (17:11):So I showed up in every single solitary writer's space that I could find everything if, like, I would be at every writer's groups. At one point I was in like seven writers groups, like e every day of the week I was essentially in someone in the writer'sMichael Jamin (17:25):Group. Who are these? Like where are these writers groups? Like who, who are these people and how do you, like, where are they?Chandra Thomas (17:30):So I found most of them through like socials, like either through, like there's a group called L A T V Writers I'm sure folks are familiar with. So find some there. There would be others that someone who recommended to me mm-hmm. you know, sort of like if you fall in, you sort of keep falling into the more was sort of my experience.Michael Jamin (17:54):People are probably some are. Yeah. Cuz you're, you're meeting other people now. You're building. Exactly. And, and how often do they meet? And like what, what were they like these groups?Chandra Thomas (18:01):It depends. It was a range. I'm still in a couple now. It, it ranged some were weekly Uhhuh, for sure. Those were usually the most frequent ones were the weekly. Some were biweekly, others were monthly. There was one group that I was in for a little bit that was quarterly and I was like, this makes no sense. . Yeah. At all. Like, you know, for three months those, oh that's just, that's crazy. Some were bimonthly for sure. It just really ranged, it depended on the writers, the people who were running it. These were mostly like Zoom even then, you know, like they were not No, that's not true. They're, most of them were on were in person. And then all of them sort of quickly transitioned to Zoom once theMichael Jamin (18:44):World went. You pay for to be in these groups. I who, someone's gotta,Chandra Thomas (18:47):It depends on the group. So in the groups where they rent theaters, we, you know, you chip in right. To help cover the, the cost of the theater or the space, you know, whatever the, the, the space was. If it was like a rental situation, some space, some of them would meet in people's homes. You know, like everybody gather around the di the dining room table or the living room or what have you. Others, there was one guy who had like a creative space that was part of his business. So you know, he would just sort open the doors that way. And then obviously like online it would be just a, whether somebody has like a Zoom account or what have you is there would either be free or you know, justMichael Jamin (19:23):A couple. Is there a leader or a teacher or someone? Or is everybody equalChandra Thomas (19:28):Usually a leader? Just who coordinates it? Not necessarily somebody who's the ones that work best in my opinion, are where somebody's just sort of helping to handle the admin. Yeah. But everyone has sort of an equal voice in terms of notes and bringing in content.Michael Jamin (19:43):See, this is, so see this is, you're saying everything perfectly because you really are, cuz this is kind, I yell at people often. If people are like, do I have to move to Alec? You don't have to do a damn thing. You don't have to do a damn thing. But this is where the people are who want what you want and you should round yourself with other people who want. And then you all help each other and you know, this is where the people come. And so you got, IChandra Thomas (20:05):Got that question all the time, Michael, like, of people saying like, do I have to move to LA as somebody who literally fought moving to la, if I say it's helpful and very, very helpful, then I really mean that. Like it's just as you pointed out, like this is where the, the, the mecca is in a certain way. And so it you, even if somebody gets into a room and they're outside of, of LA maybe New York okay, that's one thing. But how do you stay in the room? How do you stay in conversation? How do you have those chance meetings with people? How do you get information on a ground level that's not gonna be in a, you know, televised panel conversation? How do you have that one-on-one connection with the person next to you to be able to get that referral, to be able to make that referral. And I think, I think that's impossible to do on any kind of substantive level outside of New York if somebody's interested in working in television.Michael Jamin (21:03):Right, right. Well, not even in New View. Cuz you couldn't even do it in New York. Right. I mean,Chandra Thomas (21:08):Especially as a comedy writer, I think some drama writers are able to sort of make it kind of happen in New York, but you know, the opportunities are are are more limited. There's no question about it. Right. Even shows that, shoot New York, a lot of them still write in laMichael Jamin (21:23):They write here. Right. And then, because you, it's so funny you say cuz you were so reluctant, but it sounds like the minute you got here, like you were shot out of a cannon, like you just did what ev you pulled yourself out there. E every no opportunity was too small. I mean, reallyChandra Thomas (21:37):Correct or too big. I would show up at things and like, I might not get in, but I'm going to go showing up anyway. Yeah.Michael Jamin (21:44):Like what do you mean by like, what kind of opportunities were thoseChandra Thomas (21:47):Just like events or, or conversations or panels are, you know, whatever the thing is. Like, just as long as I figured out that there were gonna be people there who were writers who were gonna talk about writing in some way, I was gonna show up. SoMichael Jamin (22:00):You went to a be I'm guessing a bunch of writers Guilded events too, right? Panels?Chandra Thomas (22:03):Yes, I did. Mm-Hmm. Writers Found Writers Guild Foundation especially. Yeah.Michael Jamin (22:07):And they're, those are open to the public and mm-hmm. , you know, I, what are, I don't what they cost 10, 15 bucks. They're not terribly expensive. Right.Chandra Thomas (22:14):Sometimes free.Michael Jamin (22:15):Sometimes free. Yeah. Yeah. And, and why are we not, why are we not you taking advantage of this? Right. . And so then how did you, what was the, okay, so you're doing all this. You're now, you're writing, you got a writing group, you're you're not putting on any shows for yourself here, right?Chandra Thomas (22:30):No. Mm-hmm.Michael Jamin (22:32):. Alright. You're kind of done with the theater, but then how didChandra Thomas (22:34):You am I retired as a theater actor? Let's say it that way. Well, I still write for theater.Michael Jamin (22:40):And do you put up, but do you put up your shows?Chandra Thomas (22:43):No, I, no, I send them, I put them to other people for them to produce. I have retired from the self-producing theater.Michael Jamin (22:51):But are they going, are they, are they being produced in LA or, or back in New York?Chandra Thomas (22:55):We haven't gotten anybody on board yet, but when we do it'll be on the east coast. .Michael Jamin (23:01):Interesting. But then, okay, so then how did you, at this point, I should point out, you don't have an agent. You don't have a manager, right?Chandra Thomas (23:07):Not in writing mm-hmm. Not literaryMichael Jamin (23:09):For acting. You had, you had,Chandra Thomas (23:10):Correct.Michael Jamin (23:11):Right. Mm-hmm. , you're not helping with writing. So then how did you, how did you, what was your first break then for writing?Chandra Thomas (23:17):So I deci I had kind of quasi applied to the fellowships. I, I thought I was going to get into my first room because one of my playwright buddies was gonna like, give my script to their showrunner. And their showrunner was gonna fall in love with me through the page and hire me. That's how I thought that I was gonna end up in a room. And the, a couple of opportunities like that presented themselves. I didn't didn't, you know, meet on any of those shows. But like that, that's how I thought. Like that's where the momentum was. So I thought that's where it was gonna happen. Right. In 2019. So remember I got here June, 2018 and 2019. I was like, I am going to apply to all of the fellowships. Prior to that I had applied to some in stops and starts. I hadn't really been strategic about it. I hadn't really prepared. Like, I just sort of was like, oh, this seems interesting. But 2019 I should've was like, I'm gonna, it's by a little Spike Lee by any means necessary. So I was doing everything like, you know, obviously.Michael Jamin (24:20):What, what are the fellowships? I don't mean interrupt, but what, what fellowships are you talking? Like, which ones? I don't even know the names of.Chandra Thomas (24:24):Yeah, let me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna circle into that. So I was trying, I was going to, I was blanketing everything. Like, I was just like, I'm gonna try everything I can to try to just get something moving now that I'm here and I've got myself acclimated and I've been in these spaces and what have you. So one of those strategies was to apply to all of the fellowships. And so the fellowships are essentially run by studios, networks and sometimes organizations that are creating opportunities for writers to help them sort of just, you know, get sort of carved in into the, into the, the world into this industry. And so I applied to everyone that I could find even some that, again, some that were like, you're not exactly the right person for this . But I still applied just like I showed up to every writer's event. If nothing else, they provi they forced me to write on deadline. So even if I wasn't gonna get in and knew that I wasn't gonna get in, like at least I had a hard deadline to get my writing done. And so what were you hitting theMichael Jamin (25:32):Spec scripts or original movie? Like what were your, what were your submissions?Chandra Thomas (25:37):Depends on the fellowship. Most of them now require at least one original pilot. Some also look for specs. So I had a spec. I had two specs. One that I had written previous, like in an earlier year. And so I like retooled it and to use it. So I had two specs that I was using. And then I had two original pilots. So something I should mention that I didn't mention. So when I realized I was gonna move to from New York to la I had, when I like was like, I'm gonna go write for tv, I'm gonna leave, I'm going to la, all these things. I had never written a pilot before. Right? When I said , I was going to now pick up my like, very comfortable existence in New York and moved to like, had to write for television, had never written a pilot, had written everything else, never a pilot.(26:34):And so I was like, I do not wanna be one of those jerks who's in LA talking about like, I wanna be a writer, I'm gonna be a TV writer. I had never written a pilot. Mm-Hmm. . So I wrote two pilots in two weeks. And like obviously first drafts that got revised, but like that was cuz I was like, I do not wanna be that person. And I those two pilots, well one of those pilots has served me extraordinarily well and one of my still go-to pilots to this day. Wow. so it's a comedy. I had, say again,Michael Jamin (27:10):It was a comedy.Chandra Thomas (27:12):Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Only, only comedies. Yeah, only comedies. So one of those pilots is what I was using as my original. And then I had the two specs.Michael Jamin (27:25):Hey, it's Michael Jamin, if you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Michael Jamin (27:49):You are such a go-getter cuz there's so many. First of all, there's so many people. I wanna be a writer. I want to, okay, well have you written anything? Have you finished anything? Like you gotta finish something, you gotta you gotta finish it and you gotta put it out there. Yeah. And then, okay, so then that'sChandra Thomas (28:04):So true.Michael Jamin (28:05):Do so what you accepted to one or many of these fellowships or what?Chandra Thomas (28:11):I don't ever win things Jamin. I like, I'm the person who like works hard and gets the thing. And so I didn't really think the fellowship, like I said, I didn't really think the fellowships were gonna work out. And I, you know, in my sparse applying before, I had never gotten into any of them. And so I didn't think that that was gonna be different. I thought I was gonna have to apply. I don't know. You know, you hear stories, peoples applying for six, seven years and like not getting it, what have you. I got into, I got into one single solitary Okay. Fellowship one.Michael Jamin (28:41):Right.Chandra Thomas (28:42):And I, that was c b s.Michael Jamin (28:43):Right. AndChandra Thomas (28:44):Now called Paramount Global.Michael Jamin (28:47):Oh, they changed the name of the fellowship. Is that right or no?Chandra Thomas (28:50):Mm-Hmm. Michael Jamin (28:50):Really? How many people were in it in your, was there, is there likeChandra Thomas (28:54):A class? There were, so there's a cohort. Yeah, a class essentially. There were, by their reporting 1600 applications, they accepted six of us. Wow. And I was the only comedy writer in my cohort.Michael Jamin (29:08):And this, do you, how often did you meet?Chandra Thomas (29:12):So the way the c b s program works is it starts sort of roughly September, October. And you're assigned a mentor who's somebody sort of in the studio or network and the, the mentor or two mentors sort of help you guide you, give you notes to writing a, a new pilot. You know, so you have a fresh script coming outta the program and then starting in that goes till Mm, probably like mid ish to late April. Uhhuh . You have weekly, at least weekly meetings that have different focus that have a different focus each time. So one night might be like alumni night where other alums come and in writers' rooms and answer questions from a very, like, hands-on practical perspective. Another session will be to meet with managers another with agents. There are times with execs at the studio there's you know, like different, you know, sort of like each day, each day is like at their front adventure kind of thing. Thing. And so so I,Michael Jamin (30:22):This is with your cohort. So you, you got at this point you got to know your cohort, the, you know, the other five or six people in theChandra Thomas (30:28):Absolutely. So my, me and the other five people Yes. The other five drama writers. We, yeah, absolutely. And I sort of was like, we're gonna meet outside of here too cuz you know, you wanna get to, I really wanted us to like, you know, have our own thing even going into the sessions for sure.Michael Jamin (30:46):See, this is interesting cuz that's another misconception that people think, I think they think, well it's very competitive. How do I compete against these people? But that wasn't your attitude. You're, their attitude is, no, this is my community. I'm not competing against you. The these are my, we're all in this together. Even if someone succeeds faster than you do, it's still your people.Chandra Thomas (31:05):Absolutely. And you know, I look at the time especially as you know, an actor in the sort of, especially in the theater space mm-hmm. and there's like a sort of an expectation of somebody calls me and is like, Hey, I have this job for you, for you. Can you do it? And it's like, I can't do it for whatever reason. It's not schedule or pay or whatever. Like, you know, you're not able to do it. My first response is, can I make recommendations to you? Like, that was, that was sort of what we did. And so there was not ever an idea of like the other actors who are like me ish, cuz nobody's exactly like me, obviously, but like who we may be in the same sort of category on a call sheet,Michael Jamin (31:46):Honestly. You're like, you're like a, you're like an inspirational speaker because you really are because there's like, there's not an excuse. You don't have any excuses. You're, you're just a go-getter. You're just like, you make opportunities for yourself.Chandra Thomas (31:58):That's really kind of you to say. I feel like I am like a, like overwork your B is what I feel like most of the time. But I, I like get super excited when I like look back and say like, you know what? Look at what has what I've been able to do just even in the last few years. You know? So I do get excited about that, but it's, I'm always thinking about like, what's the next thing I need to accomplish? What do I need to do next? That's that immigrant parent thing.Michael Jamin (32:24):I was gonna say. I was gonna say, because you know, immigrants, like, they're not comfortable. That's why they leave because they want more. And it's like, they're not like lazy. They're leaving their home. Like, what are you talking about? They're leaving their home before. Like that's the opposite. Lazy.Chandra Thomas (32:39):Exactly.Michael Jamin (32:40):Exactly. Okay. So then how do you get, how did Mom come about?Chandra Thomas (32:44):So coming out of the program it, it can be sometimes a little complicated to, to staff comedy out of the program sometimes. Not all the time. And so I had said coming into the program that I mom was like one of my favorite shows. And so, you know, that's where I was hoping I would, you know, if there was an opportunity staff there and it wasn't entirely clear if that was gonna be a possibility. One of the execs who I had met during the time, I had told her about how much I love Mom , like literally had watched every episode up to that point, had gone to a taping even before I was in the program. Cause I just love the show. Like genuinely loved the show had, at that point, I think there were 132 episodes, had seen all of them at least once.(33:34):Like, just was super a fan of the show. And so that exec remembered that. And so when they were looking for a staff writer she mentioned like, Hey, would you be interested in taking a look at, you know, Chandra's scripts? And they did and really responded to it and brought me in and it was the shortest meeting in history. And I was like, okay, well I blew that, but I'm so proud that I like showed up and did my thing. And then, you know, found out a few days later that they were offering me a a spot in, in the room.Michael Jamin (34:05):And was that with Chuck Laurie that meeting?Chandra Thomas (34:08):No, that room, that meeting was with the eps who are like the hands on EPS on the show. So the two showrunners and then a third ep. Wait,Michael Jamin (34:16):Was Chuck not, did he not run mom or was it just under his umbrella?Chandra Thomas (34:20):It's under his umbrella at this point. He was more hands on earlier.Michael Jamin (34:23):So who was the showrunner then of, of mom?Chandra Thomas (34:27):So the, there were two showrunners at that point. So Gemma Baker, who is one of the creators of the show and then Nick mackay was the otherMichael Jamin (34:36):You know, what was that like for you? Because you're jumping in not, not only like the new, not only the new girl, but like brand new to the, like, anytime you have a new writer, it's difficult because you, you know, everyone else is establishing you're the new face, but also this is your first staff job. So what was that like for you?Chandra Thomas (34:55):It was incredible and intense at the same, same, same time. You know, it's like I said was one thing. One of the things that was most helpful is that I genuinely love the show. And so I came in with like that passion, knew the characters, knew what characters had, you know, character types. We that had been on the show before. Like, I came in with like an institutional knowledge, obviously didn't know the behind the scenes right. But, but interest, institutional knowledge about the show itself and the stories that it told. So that was really, really helpful throughout. And I sort of became you know, at that point I joined in season eight. And so by that point folks, you know, had forgotten what they did in season two because it was six years ago. Right. And I was able to, I actually had created a spreadsheet of all the episodes with all of the guest actors who are the series regulars who were in it.(35:50):What's the story synopsis for the episode? Title up the episode. You know, so like I sort of not only was keeping a lot of that knowledge in my head, but also had like a searchable document that I could go back to and say like, you know, if somebody pitched a story like, oh, that kind of sounds like something that happened maybe in season three or, you know, that kind of thing. I was able to sort of like help, you know, support that that piece. So so, you know, found my, found ways to be helpful in that respect. But to your point, like it's, it's a very intense experience when, like you pointed out not only the new girl in this room, a new girl to TV writing and everyone in that room, just a, with the exception of the other staff writer and a mid-level writer who also joined around the time that I was joining the room, everyone else were upper level writers. Yeah. most of them had been with the show since, if not season three. Season one. Right. and even the staff writer who was joining who was staffed when I was staffed had been with the show in a support staff capacity for two or three cuns. So I was like the new new new new girl in like a lot, a lot of ways.Michael Jamin (37:03):Did you have an, at this point, did you have an agentChandra Thomas (37:05):At this point? I did. So I did have an agent by this point. Mm-Hmm. I did. And not an agent. I had a manager. I had a manager at this point in Lit.Michael Jamin (37:15):And then how did you get, and then after that I was, was it, did you have any time off between that and to Tacoma FD was there, like, how much time lapsed between that?Chandra Thomas (37:25):So we're missing a little, we had a little gap in there. So when I wrapped on Mom, I actually jumped on the show that Christie and you talked about the Amazon animated show. ,Michael Jamin (37:34):What, what show was that? Right? What wasChandra Thomas (37:36):That? So it was called The Flats. It was adult animated comedy at Amazon. So that's what I jumped onto shortly after I wrapped on Mom.Michael Jamin (37:46):And how many episodes was that? I forgot. I totally forgot. Put that, that correct.Chandra Thomas (37:49):We did, we wrote eight episodes,Michael Jamin (37:52):Right? Mm-Hmm. , right? Mm-Hmm. and, and did it and did, did it even air? Sometimes they do, right? Some didn't even air. Sometimes that happens, man, you write, youChandra Thomas (37:59):Didn't even air. But we wrote a great show.Michael Jamin (38:02):Yeah. And then okay, so then came to com fd.Chandra Thomas (38:05):Yes. Then shortly after I wrap on that, then I was on Tacoma.Michael Jamin (38:09):Mm-Hmm. . Interesting. Cause you went from multi-camera to animation to single camera.Chandra Thomas (38:12):That's correct.Michael Jamin (38:13):Right. And what was that transition like for you? You can't even get your feet you wet yet. I mean, you know, you're ready getting your feet wet and already you're learning a different format.Chandra Thomas (38:21):I loved it. I mean, I love, I love Multicam. I love animation and I love single cam, like love. I've loved what you can do in each of those formats. Is, you know, a little bit different in each Right. Obviously at the, at the end of the day there needs to be story, character and jokes. But you can sort of, you know, there's just different things you can do in the animated show. You know, in three lines I wrote about a bear doing like a dance through the back of a car window like that would, that would require, you know, $2 million on on a live action show. But like, you can do that in animation. So it has its own, you know, sort of perks there and multi obviously like, you know, having the close, having the, the, the limited number of sets and setups. Like just, there's just a specialness that can happen there. And obviously the the the kinetic energy of a live audience. Yeah. And then a single cam, like, you know, there's just certain storytelling you can do there. Yeah. And certain things you can do there. So I love all of it, to be quite honest. I thought came in thinking I was gonna be just like super, almost exclusively into single cam. But I've loved all of the, I really have loved all ofMichael Jamin (39:28):'Em. And then I know af I know after that, I know you started getting getting more into development. So what has that ride been like?Chandra Thomas (39:37):So actually I got my first development deal when I was on the, the Amazon show. So that's when I got my first deal. I was actually on deal when I was on Tacoma. So that is super, it's such an interesting development. Is is is extremely interesting and extremely frustrating. at the same time.Michael Jamin (40:00):We, we used to call it development hell, I don't, people don't, I'm not sure if people call it anymore cause they're just grateful for the, for the money. Chandra Thomas (40:06):, it's, there's, there's so many moving parts and I think the part that's most frustrating about development is you can create an amazing show. Incredible show. Everybody loves it and it can still not get sold or, you know, get sold to network or get, you know, or air or get a pilot put, you know, like, it, there's, there's so many steps before a show will even vaguely make it to a television screen and it, the show could be incredible and still incredible , everybody loves it and still not make it. Yeah,Michael Jamin (40:40):That's exactly right. What we, my, my partner Steve and I siever, we like, well the victory for us is the minute the check hits our hands. Oh good. Okay. We got, we got the check. But after that, yeah. There's so many other things. And even before then, there's so many things about why sh pitch won't even sell. It could be a great pitch. People could love it. Absolutely. And the exec, we're outta money where we don't want it. There's some, somebody else is doing something vaguely similar or, you know, or something failed that was vaguely similar, we won't do it. It's like,Chandra Thomas (41:09):Or your studio execs get laid off Michael Jamin (41:12):That that happens easily. Yeah, yeah. Right. So the minute, if you have an exec that shepherding the project and then they get fired or for whatever reason leaveChandra Thomas (41:19):Or they leave or Yep.Michael Jamin (41:20):Yeah. They can leave for promotion mm-hmm. , they're go your project's dead, because no one else is gonna wanna take it up and no one else that's like picking up someone's scraps off the floor. Even if it's a great idea, it's someone else's scraps. Mm-Hmm. And it doesn't count. A victory doesn't count towards you. You don't get the, don't get the victory.Chandra Thomas (41:36):There's, there's so there are so many places it doesn't, it, even if it's incredible, there's so many places where it falls apart. So that's definitely the frustrating part. But there's something invigorating about like, imagining what a show could be like. I think there's something really exciting about that. Especially, you know, I'm really interested in stories that we haven't seen or heard a ton, you know, so like getting to, even if it's, we're just gonna get to pitch it, but at least like being able to craft and and shape stories that I think are interesting and, and funny obviously have heart. You know, it's like at least I got the opportunity like put some, put some shape around something that could be incredible. Are you, andMichael Jamin (42:17):Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. I didn't mean to cut you off.Chandra Thomas (42:19):No, you're good. And what I was further gonna say is what I've seen now from other creatives is a show like I look at, for example, Lena, wait, she has a show called Twenties that has been, I think it's run for maybe three seasons, two or three seasons at this point. She originally wrote that, that was like one of the first pilots she wrote. She wrote it a, a long time ago. Let's, you know, the earlier days of her career and the show, she couldn't get anybody to buy it. And then she was able to sell it once sort of, people were excited to just, you know, work with her. And so I think there's something also to be said about, okay, cool, something doesn't sell now I'll put it in the file drawer as I'll, as my mom likes, say, put it in your purse and then, you know, it might be something you can pull out at some other point. So I always keep that in mind too of that, you know, a project may not be, some projects are dead for sure, but a project may just be in taking a nap. We'llMichael Jamin (43:17):Say, see, but see, the thing is the hustle never ends. ItChandra Thomas (43:20):Never ends. It never ends. Right. That's why I'm so not into the, the phrase break in because I think sometimes people think like once you break in, right, it's like glass, you break in. The glass is no long, the glass no longer exists, you're in the space, it's over. But like, it's you have to carve is how I say you have to carve in. Like, there's constantly more material in front of you that you have to sort of, you know, make your way through.Michael Jamin (43:48):Right. Right. That's, it's, it's, you're exactly right. Now are, is your entire focus now on like commercial projects? Are you doing anything on the side that's just interesting for you? You know,Chandra Thomas (44:00):I mean, I'm still writing for theater as I mentioned, and so that does not feel commercial at all. that feels in several of my plays have won awards recently. And so there definitely is you know, there's that sort of creative space. Most of what I write now, particularly for TV and for film, is not necessarily that I'm gonna sell it tomorrow, but I'm like banking it so that I have something, you know, I have it for when I may be looking to sell something like this or so now, unless it's theater I'm thinking in some way commercially, but let me explain what I mean by commercially. It's not to say that I'm going to write something that I think people want me to write or I think is gonna sell. I'm writing what I think is interesting and funny and compelling and then see if there's a market for that thing that I think is interesting, funny and compelling. Right.Michael Jamin (44:57):See, that's another thing people often say to me, like on social media, they'll say, you know, does art is dark comedy selling now? What's selling now? It's like, don't ask me what do you wanna write? What do you wanna write? ?Chandra Thomas (45:08):It's always gonna be hard to sell stuff.Michael Jamin (45:10):Yeah, right.Chandra Thomas (45:11):Period. . So, you know, even if the folks aren't ready for it now, they may be ready for it in six months, eight months, a year, two years. But, you know, I like to have the thing in my purse, butMichael Jamin (45:21):I'm surprised you're not doing more for yourself to star an acton, you know?Chandra Thomas (45:26):Oh yeah, no, I'm definitely, I've definitely keep that in mind, Jamin don't worry. Don'tMichael Jamin (45:31):I am worried about that. I wanna make sure you're on camera because Yeah. Because who else can play you better than you and who else can write you better than you? You know,Chandra Thomas (45:39):There's no question about that. That is always on my mind. Let me s lemme put it that way. I don't ever want to put myself in a situation where people think I'm gonna hold up a project Right. Because of my actor side. So that's that. I don't, you know, I'm, no, I don't lead from that place. But I, it's always, it's always somewhere in my, in the folds of my mind.Michael Jamin (46:06):And do you feel then I'll, I'll wrap it up with this, but do you feel you're writing your, you know, your writing has now informed your acting. Do you feel like, or, or vice versa, you've become a better actor because of your writing and, and better writer because you've been a, you know, you're actingChandra Thomas (46:22):I think interestingly enough. So I've been doing more, a little bit more performance well acting in here recently because I have a little bit more flexibility in my schedule including guest art on the season premiere of Tacoma. Which I had a blast doing. Yeah. and it's interesting because there, like I know that me as an actor, like I'm, it comes from a very physical space and being a writer, at least for me is not a physical experience. Mm-Hmm. . And so I find I have to sort of get myself back on the actor horse in a way that is, that I did not necessarily anticipate or expect. So it feels like I have to warm up a little bit more to feel like I'm performing at the level that I am cus I'm accustomed to be performing at. But the other way around, the actor informing the writer always, and I'm so grateful.(47:17):A buddy of mine who was just a showrun on a show, she started as an actor as well and now is primarily a writer. And she often says one of the best things she ever did for her writing career was start as an actor, was start as a performer. And that always informs my writing. Like, you know, hearing voice is, is something that is so clear to me coming from an acting background understanding sort of like character moves, character motivations being able to encapsulate new action in, in addition to dial Like there, all of that is an actor informing writer for sure.Michael Jamin (47:56):Wow. This is the, I honestly, you, I think you're like, I don't know, am I gonna be any, you've been a fascinating interview. You've been a fascinating, because I feel like you're incredibly inspiring. You're so driven, like no one's gonna stop you. No. Who's gonna stop you from doing whatever , whatever the hell you want. N I don't think anybody's gonna be able to stop you. Yeah, IChandra Thomas (48:18):Appreciate that. I appreciate that. You know, the ultimate goal is to you know, do be a writer, actor, creator in a series like Quinta Brunson, like Mindy Kaling, like a Tina Fey. And so that's our North Star. And so we're just gonna keep marching in that direction. .Michael Jamin (48:33):Yeah, I would, yeah. I wouldn't bet against you. That's what I'll say.Chandra Thomas (48:36):.Michael Jamin (48:37):I think you're wonderful, Chandra. Thank you. So thanks, Cameron. Should Sure. How can people fo follow you? Do you wanna promote anything, any social media or anything you wanna, you tell people about?Chandra Thomas (48:46):Sure. So I am on Twitter and TikTok at @chandra7thomas, and I'm on Instagram at @chandrathomas. Chandra, c h a n d r a, Thomas with an H.Michael Jamin (49:01):Thank you so much. Thank you again. Thank you.Chandra Thomas (49:04):Thanks for having me. What a fun time.Michael Jamin (49:06):No, you're, you're a wonderful guest. You're wonderful. All right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna sign off. I'll say goodbye to my, to my podcast. Thank you all so much for listening. Until next time, we got more great guests coming your way. And keep following the @MichaelJaminWriter.Phil Hudson (49:20):This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at @ PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Michael Jamin sits down with one of his good friends (and former bosses) Jonathan Aibel who was a movie writer for Kung Fu Panda 1-3 and has worked on other greats like Trolls, Monster Trucks, The SpongeBob Movie: Sponge Out of Water, and Monsters vs Aliens. If you dream of being a movie or TV writer, you won't want to miss this podcast episode!Show Notes:Jonathan Aibel IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0008743/Jonathan Aibel EMMYS: https://www.emmys.com/bios/jonathan-aibelJonathan Aibel Rotten Tomatoes: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/celebrity/jonathan_aibelMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated Transcript:Jonathan Aibel (00:00:00):We knew storyboards, we knew how to read storyboards. We knew what happens in an editing room and how actors perform, right? So we came to it with production skills or an, an understanding of the process that that helped us come in and say, oh, I think you can, you can cut a few frames there and actually know what we were talking about.Michael Jamin (00:00:23):You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone. Welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin, and I got a great guest for you today. This is my, this is one of my, this is one of my first bosses, actually. And yeah, yeah, John, it's true. I am here with John Abel one of the partner, he, his partners Glen Berger. I'll have him on in a future episode. So tell him to just relax. I know he wants toJonathan Aibel (00:00:51):Be, let's see how this goesMichael Jamin (00:00:52):First. Yeah, he'll, exactly. So yeah, and this guy's got a ton of credit. We, he's a real life movie writer. So let me give, I'm gonna sell you a, I'm gonna sell you, John, and then I'll let you talk for a second. But first let me talk, let me sell you up.Jonathan Aibel (00:01:04):That's fine.Michael Jamin (00:01:04):Proof everyone knows, like, I'm a, people say I'm a good creative writer. Wrong. I'm gonna prove it by selling you here, by building you up. So he's written on a u s a, he wrote run on King of the Hill for many years, including he was the showrunner, season five, cos Showrunner Mar. He also worked on Married to the Kelly's. That was his tv. That was his run in TV, I think. And then he went on to write Kung fu Panda, Kung fu Panda two, Kung fu Panda three proving like, you know, milking that thing, just milking that Kung fu panda thing. And then trolls, monster Trucks. And you've had a couple, couple upcoming stuff I want to talk about. Jonathan Abel, welcome to the show.Jonathan Aibel (00:01:46):Thank you. That was okay.Michael Jamin (00:01:48):What wasn't good? What should I have said?Jonathan Aibel (00:01:49):Well, you, king of the Hill is six years and like, that was six six. That was great TV. And then, and then you kinda mentioned some things. I was on six weeks with the same,Michael Jamin (00:01:59):Yeah,Jonathan Aibel (00:02:00):The same emphasis.Michael Jamin (00:02:01):I'm pretty sure, but I'm pretty sure. So they're not equal, you're saying, you're saying, well,Jonathan Aibel (00:02:07):You know, some, some are hits and some are are learning experiences. I'mMichael Jamin (00:02:12):Wearing my shirt for you by the, my King of the Hilter. But let, lemme tell you something. Let me tell you let me tell you something else. So will you, you guys, you and your partner Glenn hired basically, hi. You and Richard Pell hired us to be on King of the Hill. I think there was an opening because of Paul Lieberstein who left. And we literally took his office. So I credit I thank you for that. Oh, you'reJonathan Aibel (00:02:30):Welcome.Michael Jamin (00:02:31):When we got, when we joined the show, it was like, you know, it's your responsibility to get up to speed. So I asked for every script that was written or every, you know, anything on DVD that was already shot. And I distinctly remember reading all your guys' scripts, you and you and Glen Scripps, and just thinking, man, every script you wrote was just tight. It was so tight. And you'd come outta the box with a big joke. And it was just so well written. And like, you know, I didn't, there was 20 writers in the show, but I remember that your, your scripts always stood out like, man, these are always,Jonathan Aibel (00:03:02):You know, IMichael Jamin (00:03:03):Appreciate that. Always good. Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:03:04):I also appreciate your your diligence.Michael Jamin (00:03:07):My diligenceJonathan Aibel (00:03:08):Well, to come into a job and say, let me read everything. Lemme seeMichael Jamin (00:03:12):Everything. Oh, is, I didn'tJonathan Aibel (00:03:13):Think that was, it was a bit of a challenge with a hundred episodes.Michael Jamin (00:03:16):Always dreadful. The whole thing was a horrible experience. It's a lot to, but I remember. But you have to do it. You have to. That's how you get the voice of the characters and but the, to like, what kind of show episodes are being told. I remember, I dunno if I ever told you this, but I remember we had just, we were on just Shoot Me, you know, for the first four years. And I remember after the first season, king of the Hill was up against to shoot me. And I remember I was actually house-sitting for Steve Levitan for some reason. And and we were watching, I, we threw a big party. He, he wasn't in the house. And, and we were watching King of the Hill. It just came on. It was the, it was, you know, the Bobby's falls in love with the, with the dummy. And I, and I remember watching thinking, oh no, this is the competition. , this is really good Jonathan Aibel (00:04:01):That we used to watch. Just shoot me all the time in the writer's room feel that same way.Michael Jamin (00:04:06):Is that right? I didn't know that. I don't, I don't think so,Jonathan Aibel (00:04:08):But I, I just feels like it would, it should be.Michael Jamin (00:04:11):Yeah. You, you actually used to reciprocate.Jonathan Aibel (00:04:13):That'd be a nice thing to say.Michael Jamin (00:04:14):It would've been. But yeah, so Damn, Michelle was, and I still get, I, even today I get a ton of compliments on, on King of Hill. But tell me more. Tell me how you broken. How did you guys even get on King of Hill Hill?Jonathan Aibel (00:04:28):We were very lucky in that before we even moved to California, we, Glen and I met, we were management consultants and we met someone at this consulting firm who was college roommate with Greg Daniel's wife. And when we first started thinking maybe we don't wanna be consultants and would prefer to be comedy writers, she said, you should talk to Suzanne. Give her a call. So we called Suzanne to say, could we, we know you're Frank, could we talk to you about writing? And she said, you really wanna talk to my husband? So she put Greg on the phone. He didn't know who we were. We, he then I, whatMichael Jamin (00:05:11):Was Greg doing at that time?Jonathan Aibel (00:05:13):He had moved to la I think he was doing Seinfeld at the time or had done the freelance, the parking spot on Seinfeld. Oh, I didn't, yeah, he'd come off of snl.Michael Jamin (00:05:24):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:05:25):And he gave the most basic advice that now you would probably give people, or you'd Google this. And it was, and Glen wrote it down, it was moved to Los Angeles. Mm-Hmm. . Okay, okay. What else do we need to do? Like the how do you become a writer? And just super helpful in that regard. And then we moved to LA and never ran into him until King of the Hill. We had our first meeting and Glenn, I think he may have brought the pad and said, it's your fault. We're here.Michael Jamin (00:06:00):But how did you get the meetingJonathan Aibel (00:06:02):That, that it was just through our agent. There's this new show starting up, it's animated. I don't wanna do animation. I know, I know. And it's non gild. Yeah,Michael Jamin (00:06:12):I know aboutJonathan Aibel (00:06:13):That. And you're gonna work in a full year for 12 episodes. Mm-Hmm. . Well, this sounds terrible, but it's Greg, it's Mike Judge who's coming off of Beavis and Butthead. Mm-Hmm. . And you will learn a lot whether it's a hit or not. And we thought, well, that's probably the best reason to, to take a job. There's nothing to see. There was no pilot even, there's just a script. Right. There are no voices to listen to. It had been cast. So it was really just going under the assumption that, well, anytime you think something's gonna be a hit, it never is. So let's take a job just based on the people. And I don't think at that moment we had there, it wasn't like, do we take this or do we take this? It was, well, do we take this or do we just hang on? And, but you had no, I think maybe we hadn't,Michael Jamin (00:07:04):You didn't have any other credits before that, did you?Jonathan Aibel (00:07:06):No, we had done, we started off, oh, we did an episode of the George Carlin show. We had done, youMichael Jamin (00:07:13):Were right down the hall from me. I didn't know that. Cause I was a pa.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:15):Right. Well, we had done a freelance. A freelance,Michael Jamin (00:07:17):Doesn't matter. You were in the Warner Brothers building, building 1 22 or something. Cuz that's where it was.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:21):Well, here. No, cuz here's our great George Carlin story is that we wrote this script for Sam Simon. Right. We turned it in. We get a call a few weeks later from someone at the studio who said, great episode. And we said, oh, you read the script. Well read the script. Did tape last night.Michael Jamin (00:07:42): just slapping the face. Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:47):We were not invited to our own tape. So we watched, we had a party, we watched it at home. Look, our first, our first big creditMichael Jamin (00:07:54):That, but that's amazing too. How did you get, how did you pitch that? You're skipping all this good stuff.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:59):Ah, our agent just back then we were, we were new. I think we had a couple, we've done a, a sketch show on Nickelodeon that got us in the guild that got us an agent. And interesting. He just put us up for stuff. So one of them was this freelance of of Carlin. And one of the other things is we went to pitch Sam mm-hmm. , who it was, it was a hazard. Like he had a deadly sharp throwing stars on his table. So you'd go to like, oh, what's the paperwork? Don't touch those. They were razor sharp. And he also had a couple vicious dobermansMichael Jamin (00:08:42):In the office. Yeah, I remember that. I remember that.Jonathan Aibel (00:08:44):Then he also had, what we assumed was his story editor sitting at the table as we pitched him some story ideas. And then we left and realized, no, that was his next meeting. The next writer who's gonna pitch story idea sat at the table while we pitched ours. And then we left. And he stayed and pitched his,Michael Jamin (00:09:02):That's a littleJonathan Aibel (00:09:03):Unusual. It was a very, it was, it was a very odd thing. But that worked out in the sense that we got the freelanceMichael Jamin (00:09:10):Your scripts must have been very good then. I mean, cuzJonathan Aibel (00:09:13):I don't think they, I don't think so.Michael Jamin (00:09:15):It must have been if you would've got an agent that easily and got to be able to pitch these shows.Jonathan Aibel (00:09:19):Well, the, the agent, I don't know if it was easy. We, well, what happened was what Mo what happens to most people is you come out and you think, we need to find an agent. We need to get an agent. We're not gonna get a job without an agent. Right. And then you meet all these agents, they love you, they love your stuff, and they say, get a job. I'm happy to sign you.Michael Jamin (00:09:37):Yes.Jonathan Aibel (00:09:38):And we realized we're not going to get work, but just an agent. We need to get work somehow. And just by knowing people, talking to people, we wound up at M T V. Mm-Hmm. doing a game show.Michael Jamin (00:09:54):Which show was that?Jonathan Aibel (00:09:55):It was called Trashed. Think It finally Made it there. We just worked on the pilot and then got to know people on the, on the hallway. We share, we were in damn TV buildings. And next door were some writers on this Nickelodeon show. And a couple of the writers had just left. And someone said, oh, I hear they're, they're looking to hire. Wow. So we said, Hey, we, we've got sketches. Can we, can we meet? We the executive producer read our stuff, met with us, and said, yeah, I'll hire these guys. We went to our agent, the, the potential agent, and said, we just got offered a guild job. Do you wanna represent us? You, there's no negotiation other than you say, yeah, I think I can get my boss to sign you. Sure. And that was it. And then we were in the Guild. We were having fun writing, and I had had credits, but I, I wouldn't say we necessarily knew how to write. We knew how to be funny and come up with gags mm-hmm. . But the idea of how do you write a scene, how to you write a script was right. Was a little bit mysterious.Michael Jamin (00:11:01):But, and so you, I so you met Glen, you were just, you were, he was a coworker at when you were in your consulting firm. And then how did you both, like, did you, so you never even dreamed as a kid of being a writer. It was ne like, how did this come out of, where did this come from? This writing thing?Jonathan Aibel (00:11:14):I don't think I had any idea that people wrote for a living.Michael Jamin (00:11:20):Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Aibel (00:11:22):Like, you didn't, you'd watch shows and you wouldn't think, I don't, I don't really know what I was thinking. Like, if I went to see a play on Broadway, I knew a human had written it, but there's something about TV where you would think like, I don't know, those are characters who would say these words and you don't think of 10 people in a room writing those words. So it wasn't until Stimson's and Seinfeld started breaking through that, I started feeling like, whoa, there's TV here that I'd wanna write. And later I found out it was because people just a few years ahead of me at Harvard,Michael Jamin (00:12:01):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:01):Were writing those shows. So I was sort of thinking like, why does this feel like it's my sensibility without realizing I was kind of swimming in the same waterMichael Jamin (00:12:09):They had? You weren't on the Lampoon then. No.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:11):You didn't have a no idea that this is something,Michael Jamin (00:12:14):How did you know you were funny then? Like, you know, IJonathan Aibel (00:12:18):Mean, I, I think I always had a sense of humor and was known for being funny slash maybe sometimes disruptive, but cleverly disruptive in school. Right. Like, I was, I'd done musical theater, so I was okay fam like, I, I wasn't like unfamiliar with entertainment.Michael Jamin (00:12:40):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:42):But that was different from thinking, you know, that's something you can make a living at. And then it was right around that time where these articles started coming out about the number of people who had gone from the East coast to LA and how many Letterman writers.Michael Jamin (00:12:56):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:56):And SNL writers and Simpson's writer and Seinfeld and Frazier and Cheers and all these. That opened up my eyes to wait a minute, this is, you could make a living,Michael Jamin (00:13:07):But when you,Jonathan Aibel (00:13:07):I went to, I had no idea.Michael Jamin (00:13:09):When you quit your job, then you came to LA you'd had no job. Right. You were what? You were just like, I'm gonna live off my savings. Or what would you do?Jonathan Aibel (00:13:16):Right. We, we, we saved up from, I I, I think Glen says he sent away for grad school applications. His second day of work is how, how quickly he knew that place wasn't for him.Michael Jamin (00:13:30):He did it just .Jonathan Aibel (00:13:32):It was a little, a little later in the process, but we started writing at night. Like we found out you gotta write a specMichael Jamin (00:13:40):Script. Right. And you guys are roommates too?Jonathan Aibel (00:13:43):No. No. We, we weren't, but we wouldn't sometimes call in sick and then work on ourMichael Jamin (00:13:48):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:13:49):Ourselves or Glen would stay home and, and turn the light onto my cubicle and put a Right. Put my suit jacket over my chair. , you know, it wasMichael Jamin (00:13:58):All these, oh my God. Jonathan Aibel (00:14:00):Our heart wasn't really in it, but we stayed and did the job and, and saved up.Michael Jamin (00:14:05):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:14:06):So that we could move to LA And we didn't move out to LA like I think we were, we approached it, the way we approached consulting, which was this, this was my job as a consultant, was I was given a list of doctors and it, we had sent them a survey and it was go down this list, call each doctor's office and ask them if they filled out the survey. So it's like, hello, Dr. Levine, my name is John Avon. I'm calling on behalf of this. And we've sent a survey. I was just wondering if you had a chance to, to, and I would just have to do that for hours. And the skill it taught me was just pick up the phone and call people.Michael Jamin (00:14:47):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:14:47):So when we were thinking of moving to LA, it was, oh, you should like calling Suzanne.Michael Jamin (00:14:53):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:14:54):Instead of saying, ah, she doesn't know me. It was just, okay, she's just like a doctor. I'm calling you. She doesn't want to talk to me. She'll just, you weren'tMichael Jamin (00:15:01):To call, were intimidated at all. You, you had, you weren't intimidated at all.Jonathan Aibel (00:15:04):I don't think I knew to be intimidated. We were in Boston at the time,Michael Jamin (00:15:08):UhhuhJonathan Aibel (00:15:09):. We didn't, you weren't surrounded by people who had this dream of going to Hollywood and then came home with their tail between their legs and said, now it's awful out there. Right. It was, that place seems fun and sunshine and I knew people, people from school, people, friends of my brothers had lived were, were out there. So when we showed up, it felt like there was a, a group, there was a, you weren't alone. It was there other people here pursuing the dream, but not so many that you felt like there's no chance this is gonna happen. Like we were, I don't know if cocky is the word, but because we didn't know any better. We were just know it's gonna work outMichael Jamin (00:15:48):And itJonathan Aibel (00:15:49):We're gonna, we didn'tMichael Jamin (00:15:49):How long did it take for you to get work, but when you moved out here, it sounds like a fa it was fast.Jonathan Aibel (00:15:53):Well, we moved out in September and we got the game show started in December. And then I think amazing by the following summer we were on the Nickelodeon show.Michael Jamin (00:16:07):What show was that? What was thatJonathan Aibel (00:16:08):Called? It was called Roundhouse.Michael Jamin (00:16:10):I don't know that one.Jonathan Aibel (00:16:11):Right. Bruce Bruce Gowers who just passed away two days ago. Who did The Queen, the Bohemian Rapley video. He was the director of it.Michael Jamin (00:16:19):Oh wow.Jonathan Aibel (00:16:20):But there's a little little roundhouse trivia. It was really fun. It was a lot of in living color writers.Michael Jamin (00:16:25):Wow.Jonathan Aibel (00:16:26):Between gigs were there. So it had dancing and original music and it was a sketch show for tweens on on sncc.Michael Jamin (00:16:36):Sncc. Is that what it was? Really? Yeah. It's so funny cuz this show here was on Nick at night, which was supposed to be not Nickelodeon and Nick at night. No, it'sJonathan Aibel (00:16:43):Different.Michael Jamin (00:16:44):But it's not because it, Nick, I don't remember if Nick at night started at 8:00 PM or 9:00 PM or whatever. But see, my, my partner I siever it used to say, but it's the, it's the babysitting channel up until, you know, 8 0 1 and then it becomes racy. But the parents don't know thatJonathan Aibel (00:17:00):. Right. no one's turning you.Michael Jamin (00:17:02):Yeah. So the, we got a lot of peopleJonathan Aibel (00:17:04):From was Saturday night. Saturday night. Nick is a whole otherMichael Jamin (00:17:07):Ball game. Oh, is that what that is? Sncc? Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:17:10):I guess they could have also done it Sunday without changing the name. Yeah. But it was SaturdayMichael Jamin (00:17:15):Or Wednesdays. Wednesdays or Thursdays. Anything, any day that ends with an sJonathan Aibel (00:17:23):That's true. Wednesday, Wednesdays Nick.Michael Jamin (00:17:25):Yeah. Anyway, that's why we're not in the marketing department.Jonathan Aibel (00:17:29):My point though is by the time we got to King of the HillMichael Jamin (00:17:32):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:17:34):We had had, we had worked on a, a show that was real old school in its joke telling, like real strong set up three a page, boom, boom, boom, boom. Then we worked on another show that was very emotional where it was single woman in the city kind of show. And that was, it wasn't, not funny, but it was as a writer there it was, wait a minute, I'm supposed to tell a story that isn't just the situation of situation comedy. It wasn't just the character loses her driver's license and has to go to the D M V and this crazy stuff happens. Mm-Hmm. , it was thinking about the, the internal life and they're Okay. That's an interesting then,Michael Jamin (00:18:23):But then when did you learn actually how to write like story, a story structure? When did, is that King of the Hill?Jonathan Aibel (00:18:29):I think so. The other, the, the show that was very joke heavy. The other thing you learn on a joke heavy show is, is the, the tricks. The okay, someone comes in and says something and then at the end of the scene someone repeats it in a callback andMichael Jamin (00:18:44):Right, right.Jonathan Aibel (00:18:45):Then people laugh and the music plays and you dissolve slowly to the next scene. And they're, they're like they're like weapons. They could be in that they could be used for good or evil.Michael Jamin (00:18:55):Right. Right. SoJonathan Aibel (00:18:57):By the time though, we got to King of the Hill, I remember pitching the very first week to Greg and you just have no idea what this show you're thinking the Simpson. So, okay. I remember we pitched something like Dale's an exterminator. So he tens a big house and then people think it's a circus and starts showing up at it.Michael Jamin (00:19:19):Oh, I like thatJonathan Aibel (00:19:20):. And Greg's like, oh, that's the little, probably by season eight that would've been a season eight idea. That's good. But in the beginning I think that's a little not observational enough. And, and, and it's sort of like, well what do you mean to define observational was the, the question like how do you find comedy out of human, actual human behavior?Michael Jamin (00:19:48):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:19:48):In the way, how do you observe what a person would do in a, in a real life situation? And no one had really done that in animation, which was Yeah. The, I think the brilliance of Mike and Greg was to say, well, what if you take this style that's associated with unreality Right. And give it more reality than anything else you've seen in animation.Michael Jamin (00:20:09):And that's what was unusual because we used to say in many ways just king of the Hill was less of a cartoon than, than just shooting me. I mean, just shoot me was more of a cartoon. You know, it was, but, and it's unusual cause you'd say, I I even back then I was like, well why is this show animated? Like, cuz you no one's eyes popping out, no one's running on air. You know, no one's doing any Daffy Duck stuff. But I guess it was just because you could shoot it like a movie and it could be real. But you didn't have the, you didn't have the budget. WellJonathan Aibel (00:20:39):You're probably overthinking it cuz it was just the real reason is they had to deal with Mike and Mike's an animator and this is what he wanted to do.Michael Jamin (00:20:46):. I guess so. But usually why is it animated? Like, you know, otherJonathan Aibel (00:20:50):Than because Yeah. That's, that's why are, why are, why is this? It's cuz cuz Mike wanted, he saw it. No, that was his thing. And, and he didn't. And, and that's great. That's as, that's as good a reason. And how,Michael Jamin (00:21:04):How much was, and I've heard stories, but I think people wanna hear this. How involved was Mike like literally on a day-to-day basis in those early years with the show?Jonathan Aibel (00:21:13):Huh. I can't say I know the full scope of it because I'm sure he was more involved in the production,Michael Jamin (00:21:22):But he wasn't in the writer's room. I mean, I know like,Jonathan Aibel (00:21:24):No, cuz he was living in Texas.Michael Jamin (00:21:26):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:21:27):So he would come in and then we would do the story retreats, maybe you remember. Yeah. Or we'd go to Texas and and meet with him, or he would come in or we'd go to his house. It re it was Greg on the day today. And then I don't really know what the, the communication between the two of them was. Right. I, I'm pretty sure Mike's deal was, I have a life in Texas and I don't wanna move to LA and do this grind cuz he had done that grind for Beefs and, but, and the Beavers and Butthead movie.Michael Jamin (00:22:01):Right, right.Jonathan Aibel (00:22:03):So I think that's what Greg took on.Michael Jamin (00:22:06):But yeah, he,Jonathan Aibel (00:22:06):It was a great combination.Michael Jamin (00:22:08):He have notes though. He I remember, you know, even on on the, on the audio track, you could sometimes hear him say, I'm, that that line's not right. He'd tweak a line or whatever, you know? Yeah, yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:22:19):Yeah, you get his little I'm not gonna say that. How aboutMichael Jamin (00:22:23): not gonna do that. But, but then, okay, so then you guys rose up to the ranks cuz only in five or six years you were running the show, which is a pretty fast climb to be able to run a TV show after only that short amount of time is kind of crazy almost. You know, IJonathan Aibel (00:22:38):Think we were a and meanwhile feels like, oh, we're not getting anywhere in this town. And some of that is because you do a show. We were, we'd probably done a year of it worked under the year before it even premiered. Right. So you're putting all this into it and you don't know if it's gonna be a hit. And then the surprise was, it, it was doing really well. And then you have no time to enjoy it because you're halfway through starting season two. It was, it was both really exciting and just crazy exhausting. And itMichael Jamin (00:23:12):Was,Jonathan Aibel (00:23:13):Yeah. Like 3:00 AM And that's sort of fun sometimesMichael Jamin (00:23:19):When you're young, it's inJonathan Aibel (00:23:21):The beginning where it's, hey, it's like college, right? We're all hanging out. We're just being funny. And then you start dating and your partners saying, what time are you gonna be home? I don't know. Yeah. Or what time do you think I really, I don't know. Someone could come into this room in two minutes and say, we're good. Go home. Or someone could come in in two minutes and say, I just got Mike's notes. We need to start over. Yeah. You don't know. And that's a, when you're a staff writer, not so hard because you just do what you're told when as you move up and take on more responsibility. It, it definitely became less fun. Aspects of it were fun. Mm-Hmm. directing actors was really fun. Mm-Hmm. working with editing and storyboard artists and the animation directors fun. But the more stuff like, can I go to a dentist appointment on Wednesday? Let me see what's the staff, what, what room am I in today? Like, I, I left consulting because I didn't wanna be a, a manager. And that's wh part of show running is that, and for us, that was the, that wasn't the fun part. The fun part, as we say, Glenn and I would note you rise up and become a showrunner based on the strength of your writing. And then you get to a position where you don't have time to write anymore.Michael Jamin (00:24:41):Oh. It's not only that people, cause I people, they reach out to me all the time, you know, that I wanna be a showrunner. It's like, I just wanted to be a writer. Like, cuz be a show. It's like you just said, you, none of us become comedy writers because we wanna be managers. Like that's not, and when you're a show owner, that's what you're doing. You are managing other people. Yeah. And and, and we're not equipped, we're not prepared for it. And we don't necessarily even want to do that. And, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a hardJonathan Aibel (00:25:06):Leap. Right. And it was, it was definitely challenging also, cuz you're putting all this work in, then you realize, this isn't even my show. This is Greg and Mike's vision, and you're just trying to fulfill their vision. Right.(00:25:21):Like, I can see running my, if Im running my own show saying I love this idea and this is my baby and I'm gonna protect. And I just, I want to be the ur here. I want to see my vision through. But so much of show running isn't that at all? It's, it's, Greg would describe it as it's sort of like pottery where you would make a pot, put it on the shelf and all right, what's the next one? Sometimes they break, sometimes they're not quite formed. But you don't have time. You gotta get to the next Right. Get to make another pot.Michael Jamin (00:25:53):But do you have, and I wanna get to your film career, which is very impressive, but do you have, did you have any like, eyes to go back and do any kind of television, even creating your own show?Jonathan Aibel (00:26:03):We, after King of the Hill, we, we wrote a few pilots. We were at Fox and writing pilots. And it was a weird time in TV where every year Fox would say, we don't want single camera shows. We need, we need Multicam, we need to pair them with whateverMichael Jamin (00:26:20):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:26:21):Hit they had there. We need another, we need to pair this. So we'd write a multi cam and then they would only pick up single camera shows. But I think that happened two or three years or whatMichael Jamin (00:26:29):Yeah. What's,Jonathan Aibel (00:26:30):What's going on? So we started realizing, I, I think we were kind of spoiled by King of the Hill. It was, it was just creatively, it was just an amazing show. And so fun to write those characters and work with those actors and work with that staff that after that it was, I don't, it's hard to just go and do sitcoms. I mean, like, I enjoyed the form, but I couldn't see myself spending 10 more years doing that. And it felt like the the air was coming out of that format.Michael Jamin (00:27:07):Then how did you, how did you jump into features?Jonathan Aibel (00:27:10):Well, it started because King, as I mentioned, king of the Hill was not a guild go in the first years mm-hmm. . So we're doing it, we're in our second or third year, and we realized we're gonna lose our health insurance. What, what? I mean like, it was a very adult sounding realization of, oh, health insurance. What I, I hadn't even been thinking. Because when you're in the Writer's Guild, it's amazing. On a time I was 23, I had health insurance.Michael Jamin (00:27:40):But you had health through the Animators Guild though, through tag.Jonathan Aibel (00:27:43):We weren't animated animation. We were No, it was not unfamiliarMichael Jamin (00:27:47):Anybody. Oh no. Wow. I didn't know that.Jonathan Aibel (00:27:51):So we said to our agent, we need, we need either freelance episodesMichael Jamin (00:28:00):Mm-Hmm. Jonathan Aibel (00:28:01):Or we need to write a feature. And she said, well, do you have a feature spec? And we said, no. And then, and to her credit, she said, there's this director, he's been hired to direct a reboot of Freddy, or of Friday, it was Freddy versus Jason.Michael Jamin (00:28:20):Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Aibel (00:28:21):And he loves King of the Hill. And basically it was, can you give him a fun, fun, he's got an idea for story fun characters that he can then kill. Like it was right around Scream had come out. So there was this, the, the Birth of Hard comedy.Michael Jamin (00:28:38):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:28:39):So he said, yeah, we can do that. And we, we met him, we got along, he loved the show. We, we love working with him. So we wrote this script, which then, which then didn't get produced. But it was, oh, this features is kind of like writing King of the Hill, but longer.Michael Jamin (00:28:59):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:28:59):You just kind of write King of the Hill and then you keep writing and keep writing and then you have a hundred pages of King of the Hill instead of 22. Right. But the three act structures similar. And the idea of thinking about a character and how do you write a character, we realized it's kind of more cinematic than episodic television. Like the things we were learning were more applicable to writing features than writing sitcoms at that point.Michael Jamin (00:29:28):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:29:29):So when our television deal was nearing its clothes, and we were thinking, do we renew it? Do we throw our hats out there as, as showrunners for hire? And we thought, you know, let's, let's write, maybe we can write some more features. And we just started getting some rewrites, doing some originals.Michael Jamin (00:29:50):Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Aibel (00:29:52):And you can start making a, a decent living writing movies and never get made.Michael Jamin (00:29:57):Oh, for sure. At least you could then. I don't know if it's nowJonathan Aibel (00:29:59):Yes. Yes. Then you then you could. But it was super frustrating. Yeah. Because everything would be about to go and then there would be a reason mm-hmm. it wouldn't go. And there were none of those reasons were under your control. And you, you could, you would do a great job and everyone would love it. And then, oh, this movie just came out. Yeah. Basically the same premise. So, sorry.Michael Jamin (00:30:20):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:30:21):And that's when we had been meeting this, this fantastic exec name Christine Belsen, who was then at Henson.Michael Jamin (00:30:30):Mm-Hmm.Jonathan Aibel (00:30:30):. And we were huge Muppet fans. Right. And she brought us in and we totally hit it off. And she said, I wanna do a Muppet kung fu movie.Michael Jamin (00:30:39):UhhuhJonathan Aibel (00:30:40):. And we thought, oh my God, yeah, that would be so great. Yes. Sign us up for that. And we said, but you know, we read that that Dreamers is doing this Jack Black, kung fu kung fu Panda movie. And she said, oh, those movies take forever. I don't think it's, I I wouldn't worry about that. So then we don't hear from her for a while. We're worried what's going on. Then we get a call from her. Okay. So I moved over to Dreamworks and we're looking for writers who come from Panda.Michael Jamin (00:31:08):Wow.Jonathan Aibel (00:31:08):And we said, oh, okay. So it was just a case where it started off simple enough, they asked us to come in for just two weeks of consulting to see what they had underway and talk about the story. Cuz it was in a roughMichael Jamin (00:31:25):But had be different. Dreamworks has a whole different system over there. So what do you mean consultant? Cause I know they worked very differently from other studios.Jonathan Aibel (00:31:33):Well, so there had been writers who, well kind of what happens is, you know, king, king of the hill, the Simpsons though, shows very writer driven. Right. It doesn't have time. You don't have time to be anything other than ri writer driven. So the animators are given the script and the audio. Right. And they're So draw this,Michael Jamin (00:31:54):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Jonathan Aibel (00:32:18):And in feature animation, Dreamworks especially, they may take that script and they'll take tens, the first 10 scenes of act, the first half the movie and give it to 10 different storyboard artists who will take that and read it and say, I see what this scene is doing, but maybe I can do it this way. And they will draw something and write it and animate and, and storyboard it and often record the dialogue themselves. And it's sort of like almost like what is it? 32 short films about Glen Gould where you end up with these almost mini movies in the beginning of a movie anyway. Like at the start of a development process where you would watch this movie and say, okay, that PO is different from this PO who's different from that po. And you watch it and you think, this doesn't make any sense, but I can start to see a story in there.(00:33:13):And then they'll do it iteratively. So then you're on that scene there, that moment I really understood who the character was. So more of that moment. So by way of saying, you may have someone who came in and wrote a script, but they might be long gone at this point cuz now it's been torn up it's storyboard and now you're walk working off transcripts where they've written down what's on screen. And that's what you're rewriting off of. So by the team time we came in, there was like a movie ish. Like you could, there was something in black and white you could watch mm-hmm. that everyone knew wasn't necessarily coherent. But the point isn't coherence. The point is what, what jumps out at you? Like we watched and said, oh, I think what you're doing is, it's kind of like a Cinderella story, right?(00:34:06):He's the guy in the beginning who wants to go to the kung fu ball mm-hmm. and can't go. And then the Prince points at him, and then he goes on this thing, and now the bad guy's coming for him and he doesn't know. And is he the chosen one? Or isn't he the chosen one? It's like those are like, now it's, it feels a little glib for me to say that as if it were obvious. It, it was, it's it was not it obvious. It's, it's, you're sitting there thinking, is it this story? No. Maybe it's the story. Some of it is, there are, there are two, Jack, Jack has, Jack Black has two kind of two great. Our type of our typical characters. One is the high fidelity like the jerk Yeah. Who deep down is suffering from low self-esteem. Right. And then he has the friendly guy who deep down is suffering from low self-esteem.(00:35:00):Right. So some of the, the production of the, the development of Kung Fu Panda was, which, which Jack is in our movie. Is he the guy who's chosen to be this kung fu guy and then realizes, oh my God, this is great. Now I don't have to work anymore. Now I can just go to the palace and hang out and relax and, and live it up until he finds out there's a responsibility. So there was some of that version of the movie. Then there's the guy who's wishes more than anything. He can be the kung fu master, but knows because of he's a big panda. That's impossible. Cuz Panas don't do kung fu and then his dream comes true. And then he has to, you know, that's what the movie ended up being. But when you started seeing that character in the opening reel, you'd say, whoa, I, I wanna, I, I wanna know more Right about that. And that's the magic of these time. You hadMichael Jamin (00:35:51):To sense of it. But see that's what I'm, I'm curious though, cuz for me it seems counterintuitive. It feel, it feels like you're putting the cart ahead of the horse. It's like, you know, I wonder if, was that, did you feel the same way? Because usually, you know, okay, we have an idea. We come, we have Ari, the writers come up with a th a thread, you know, through line and there's a story and Well,Jonathan Aibel (00:36:09):It's, it's inefficient for sure. But I think you can look at animated movies for the most part as a genre and say for the most part they're really well constructed.Michael Jamin (00:36:22):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:36:23):And I think this is, this is why, because if a writer's gonna, it's very hard to create a great movie off of six drafts, even eight drafts, 10 drafts. Mm-Hmm. and, and just see it on paper and say, yeah, that's gonna work. Because no one knows how to read a script.Michael Jamin (00:36:43):I see.Jonathan Aibel (00:36:44):Like, even as a professional writer, I don't think I could read a script and say, this is gonna be an amazing movie. You can say this is a great script. Right. But is it gonna be an amazing movie? I don't know, an animation, you're making the movie as you're writing the movie, so it's not you, it makes sense. Theoretical. Is this gonna be good? It's ah, I, I see that moment. I see Poe and his father. Right. Having that moment where Poe is afraid to tell his dad what he wants to do with his life. I see. That's one thing. Makes sense. How do we build on that?Michael Jamin (00:37:17):Right. That makes sense to So it's very collaborative with you and the animators then.Jonathan Aibel (00:37:21):Oh yeah. The storyboard team, the directors, the producer, the actors, Uhhuh . It was it very different from TV animation. Right.Michael Jamin (00:37:32):SoundsJonathan Aibel (00:37:32):Very different. And I, our, our, one of our first the first moment we realized that was the producer said, I I want you to sit in a room with this guy, a storyboard artist and talk about the scene and what it could be. So we sat with him and we worked line by line. We hopped it and said, it could be this could be this. Yeah. I could draw this, do this. Said great, we're gonna write it up. We wrote it up, gave it into him. Three weeks later we go to watch the scene. It's nothing at all we discussed and went to the producer, but a, a thing. She said, yeah, I know, but I know he's kind of out there. And I wanted to see what he would take your stuff and give you, you know, if you, if all you want, if all you're expecting is the best version of what you've already done, you're closing off the chance that you'll be surprised by something.Michael Jamin (00:38:24):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:38:25):So that's cool. On the other hand, sometimes in their scenes where you just say, can you just please do the, the pages? Right. Like, we've thought a lot about this. We understand. And there's some scenes in that first movie, which went pretty much from our pages to the final version. Cuz they were just compact. They made sense. Right. There wasn't a lot of room, but there wasn't a need for a lot of exploration. It was okay, that works. So let's just get that right going and move on to the theMichael Jamin (00:38:52):Others. So they brought you in under contract for a couple of weeks just to see how you would respond to the animators?Jonathan Aibel (00:38:59):Yeah, we had a after, well, no, to see what we would, it wasn't a trial. It was, they thought in 10 days we would give them an outline that they could work off of.Michael Jamin (00:39:12):But even still, you, they, they knew that they would probably go off via the reservation and you'd be required to Yeah. But that'sJonathan Aibel (00:39:19):Collaborate more. That's, but I think that happened a lot. It wasn't, it was more of then when we pitched our take on it to Jeffrey Katzenberg and he said, great, when you, when can you guys start writing Uhhuh. ? Okay. And then the other people lo looked at each other like, oh, I guess we, I guess we should probably get that, put that deal in place. So then we wrote a draftMichael Jamin (00:39:38):Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Aibel (00:39:40):And then they took the draft and then started going through that process of tearing it apart. And at, at which point they realized it would probably be helpful to have us around. And I think it, what helped is that coming from tv, we, we knew storyboards, we knew how to read storyboards. We knew what happens in an editing room and how actors perform. Right. So we came to it with production skills or an, an understanding of the process that that helped us come in and say, oh, I think you could, you can cut a few frames there and actually know what we were talking about. At, at the same time, the, the big difference was television is it's a, it's a sprint as you know. Yeah. It's, you need to get this done because the actors are gonna be here at 10:00 AM to read this and record this.(00:40:35):So you need something for them. So we were approached feature animation, we gotta get this done, we gotta get this done. And then what you realize is that you, that's the exact wrong way to do because you, you get it all done now then when stuff starts changing, you've already written stuff that's, it's obsolete before anyone has seen it. Right. It's like animation is best. I think it's like, it's a marathon of sprints where we need, this scene has to go into production and Jack is coming in Thursday to record this. We need these three pages done. All right, we'll get it done, we'll get it done. Great. Now in six weeks, we're gonna need sequence 1500 going into rough layout though. That's the next one. I know it's,Michael Jamin (00:41:21):But you're working off an an outline. You know what the story is, right?Jonathan Aibel (00:41:24):You do and you don't. Isn't that, I know that's a weird thing to say, but you, Lenny, I can't tell you the number of boards there that would say big battle, like act three, big battle you know, wrap up epilogue.Michael Jamin (00:41:39):Is this the way animation movies were done like at Disney back in the day? Is this where they're getting this from?Jonathan Aibel (00:41:45):It's possible. I I think what where it comes from is that what's your expense, your greatest expense of time. And therefore money is the animator, the person at Disney drawing the cell mm-hmm. at Dreamworks. That final, the final editor moving frame by frame. That takes a lot of time. And it is such a skill and the people who do it are so brilliant that it's not like you can say we need six more animators who can capture Poe. It's, there's this guy Dan, Dan Wagner, just a brilliant animator and he was the one who could give Poe his soul.(00:42:29):Right. So you only get so much Dan. So you don't want to give Dan 10 scenes to do and say, we're not sure if these are all gonna work. But, so you are not giving the animators the scenes until they're ready at the same time. The animators can only do so much at the same time. So so while they're working on one scene, there's no reason to have the other scenes done. So it's sort of like you back, you back up into the process and you'd say, well if they can only animate these this much now mm-hmm. , well let's keep working on those other scenes and make them better and keep playing with them until it's too late. And then we'll, we'll turn 'em around. Right. So you really, you have the time to get it right. And if you said no, let's rush that. We, we gotta get All right. Now there's no reason to.Michael Jamin (00:43:16):It sounds like this cuz knowing how you guys ran King of the Hill, it sounds like this is like the perfect fit for you because you guys would often rewrite the hell out of a scene trying different ways and just experimenting.Jonathan Aibel (00:43:26):That was, I I think Thank you. I think it was, it, it it is a good fit for us to, to have said, okay, we've written that scene. There, there are a lot of exercises that are, are kind of cool that you can use, which is stuff like, well let's write the opposite. Right? You have someone come into a scene who's really excited, like, well, what if they came into the scene feeling the other way and that you flipped. You kind of have that, the opportunity to exploreMichael Jamin (00:43:58):More. Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:43:59):And then, and know that there's no punishment for it because the whole point is to experiment.Michael Jamin (00:44:05):Right. That's the point. So did they keep you under, how does it work? Do they keep you under contract at that point, Dreamworks, to do other movies? Or are you constantly pitching them to get assigned other projects orJonathan Aibel (00:44:17):That No, we had, we had a, it was great in that it started off, I think it was, we were there four days a weekMichael Jamin (00:44:25):Mm-Hmm. Jonathan Aibel (00:44:26):And I think at the time we were in person then it would be three, then after six months, three days a week, as there's less to change, they need less abuse. So then it was two days a week, then one day a week. And then at the same time we were doing other rewrites in other studios. And I think it was when we got down to one day a week, they said, you know, we have this smoothie monsters versus aliens when you wanna work on that. Right.Michael Jamin (00:44:49):So you were never squeeze.Jonathan Aibel (00:44:51):We were one day monsters. Four days.Michael Jamin (00:44:53):All right. So you were alwaysJonathan Aibel (00:44:54):Kind. Yeah, always. Show by show.Michael Jamin (00:44:56):I see. You're always jumping. Right. So it wasJonathan Aibel (00:44:58):Never, and then, and it, it was nice cuz you know, you don't wanna, we liked it because it led us take the projects that spoke to us that Right. Looked like they were gonna be fun. While also, like, the great thing about Panda was it was a hit came out. It was a hit. And when you've written a movie, it's a hit. People want you to write their movies. Right. So it, and and also people want you to write movies similar to the movie that was just a hit.Michael Jamin (00:45:28):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:45:29):So it didn't matter that we had done King The Hill or other stuff. It was, oh, they, they wrote Fu Pan, they should write the Chipmunks movies. We'll offer that to them.Michael Jamin (00:45:38):Right. Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:45:39):So talking Animal, oh, here's another talking animal.Michael Jamin (00:45:42):So did you have toJonathan Aibel (00:45:43):Ever Thenn Bozer,Michael Jamin (00:45:46):Did you have to pitch, when you go on further assignments, are they pretty much yours because of, or do you have to pitch? Do you have to win that assignment?Jonathan Aibel (00:45:54):It's always a little of both. I mean, look, we were very, we were very lucky in that they weren't bake offs where Yeah. Six people are coming in to pitch this. It was, I think that the Chipmunks people really like Kung Fu Panda. It was just a rewrite. Can you come? It was over Christmas.Michael Jamin (00:46:16):UhhuhJonathan Aibel (00:46:17):. So I think that that definitely helped that they found us saying, yeah, we'll give up your, our holiday to, to write these pages for you.Michael Jamin (00:46:24):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:46:25):But then the, the luck was these were, these became franchises. So then they come you for Comfort Panda Two and Comfort Panda Three and Chipmunks three. Right. And, and then we through people knew what Dreamwork got to SpongeBob. So then you'd do SpongeBob to second SpongeBob movie that led to the third SpongeBob movie.Michael Jamin (00:46:44):I didn't even mention those. Cause that's not even on your I M D B. We'll have to update that when we get off the, the Zoom. Yeah. What update your page? I didn't know any of this. I didn't know you did the I didn't know you did that. And so, okay. Because that's a big deal. Cause I, I remember, you know, when Si and I, we did, we did a couple of movies. We sold a couples, they didn't get made. We sold a couple movies and then we were all we're brought into you know, we didn't realize they were bake offs. We didn't, so we, we pitched for, you know, a couple big companies, I don't have to mention what they are. And, and we're told Yeah, you got the, you got it. You got it. And then only to discover that someone else got it. We didn't even know o other people were trying to get, like, we had no idea. And that's a lot. You're talking about months and months of heartbreaking wasted work and then the project never even made. So, but you don't really have it's true to deal with that True. Because of your level, you know. Yes,Jonathan Aibel (00:47:34):Yes and no. The the no is if they're, if you've worked with them on Kung fu Panda one, two, and three, there's a good chance they'll come to you for Kung fu Panda four.Michael Jamin (00:47:46):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:47:47):So, and if you hit it off, feel like they may say, come in with some ideas and they like an idea. So they're not just saying, here's the deal before you've pitched anything. So there were meetings, but you know, they know you can deliver. That's kind of the main thing. Right. If it's people who you don't really know, then yeah. It's, they're rebooting this franchise and their hearing takes. And what we've learned, actually the hard way is if you're going to put yourself in that situation, you want to put as, I don't wanna say as little work as possible. You want to, you wanna do the right amount of work. That's the the best way where, but it's, we've, we've gone in and we've pitched I know, but we've gone in where we've pitched, you pitched for 20 minutes and then you realize by the second sentence you said the words they don't want to hear like, oh, that's not the kind of movie they want to do at all.(00:48:47):Right. And we've learned a better strategies to go and say, here, I I understand you wanna do a silly putty movie. I'm, I'm totally making this up, but here's, you could go this way where Silly Putty, it's a revenge story where it's a John Wick me silly putty. Right. Or it's the origin story of how a serious putty became silly putty because of a, of a family tragedy. And he's the clown who lasts through to you . Like, you know, each of these is an archetype movie. Right. And then it's, I don't know if any of those strike, well we kind of do like that. It's like, okay, okay, well we'll come back to you with that. It'sMichael Jamin (00:49:23):Interesting cuz you set the terms then over the pitch chart. Cuz that's not usually how we go in. We, here's the, here's the take, here's our take. And then, you know, you could be your, you could be completely off. I didn't know you had a choice.Jonathan Aibel (00:49:33):Well, this is a new, this is a new, this is a new realization. Uhhuh having, because you know, kind of what's happened is after doing a lot of these movies, you start to think, okay, I like this. I I know what I'm doing. What's something I don't really know how to do that I haven't done before mm-hmm. . And that's the type of movie where a person isn't necessarily gonna say, Hmm, get me the guys who did Kung Panda. Right. So you gotta hustle for those little more. And those were the ones where I think we were over preparing for many of them by saying we're gonna blow 'em away with the le attention to detail. Yeah. And especially in a Zoom era where you blow 'em away with the tension detail, they're thinking is I just need three sentences to bring the boss. Really? And it's hard because as storytellers you sometimes feel like, I can't, I don't, I'm sorry, I cannot pitch this idea unless I understand the character arts and Yeah. Right. The three acts and you're think, you know, maybe sometimes you can go in and say, and then in the third act there's a huge battle in which the forces of evil have to go against the forces ofMichael Jamin (00:50:39):I see. I would be worried about pitching something that I didn't know how to actually break. You know what I'm saying? Like, youJonathan Aibel (00:50:43):Know. Yes, I know. I, I you eventually, you just kind of have to have confidence and say, you know what, we'll figure something out. We'll figure, it's hard. It's really hard to, even at this point we'll go into a rewrite and say, what is that third act set piece? I don't know, but we'll, we'll, we'll figure it out. And it's in the back of your head thing if I don't get that.Michael Jamin (00:51:06):Yeah. Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:51:08):And then one day it'll be like, oh, wait a minute. Well, what if this happened? Because we just like, it will, it will come to you. And I think it's, it's a little, maybe this is the animation experience. It's a little foolish to even think I know what the perfect act three is before I've actually written Acts one and two.Michael Jamin (00:51:28):Yeah. But you andJonathan Aibel (00:51:29):Instead rely on your instincts and your experienceMichael Jamin (00:51:32):Wanna build to something you wanna, I I it's so, I'm, I'm telling you how to do it. I have no idea how to do it.Jonathan Aibel (00:51:37):No, but, but, but of course you will build to it, you know, you need to build to something, but you may not know the ingredients yet. Like, you'll be writing something and say, well, I'll give you a good example. In, in Conco Panda, we wound up having this, this pose, big realization. Mm-Hmm. that, can I give spoilers after 15 years after movies opened?Michael Jamin (00:51:59):I believe. I believe so. Okay.Jonathan Aibel (00:52:01):So Pose opened the scroll in it's blank, and he realizes he's failed. And his father says to him, it's okay, you can be a noodle old man just like me. And by the way, it's time. I told you the secret ingredient in my suit. And the secret ingredient is nothing. There is no secret ingredient. It was just to make something special, you just have to believe it's special. And really, that was just a joke about his father, who in the first scene we wrote that, oh, that'd be funny if he has a secret ingredient soup. And later we find out there is no secret ingredient. It's just a marketing gimmick. And it wasn't until he got to the later scene where someone, I think this bill Damascus, his name, he is, he was then the executive of dreamworks. And he said, I, I, I like what you're doing there.(00:52:49):You're kind of making comparison between the scroll being blank and the soup, not really having the spec, the specialness, it's that's it into here. And we said, that's not at all what we're, is that what we're doing? That is what we're doing. You know, like, I don't know if we consciously did that or everyone working on the movie was putting that stuff in there. But once, so if we had started with, what is it? We never would've gotten there. But like, it's funny you were talking about ingredients, but we had these ingredients of the father, the soup. We had this scroll that was blank, and it took a whole bunch of time. And thinking for a, a person to look at that with fresh eyes and say, I think you've given yourself the moment you need to do the rest of the movie.Michael Jamin (00:53:37):Do you think this is how they tell their movies at at Pixar? They have a different process. Do you thinkJonathan Aibel (00:53:43):That I I don't, I don't know all I've, all I know of the process there is, they seem to draw on tablecloths.Michael Jamin (00:53:51):Is that Oh, really?Jonathan Aibel (00:53:51):That I don't know. That was at, there's some documentary where they have this, this famous tablecloth that's amazing. Where it was, they weren't, the Brain Trust was meeting. And I said, well, here's some movies I think we could do. There's what if tos come to life? What, what if bugs come to life? What if Bumper Beyond that, I don't really know their process. It's probably somewhat similar.Michael Jamin (00:54:13):So. Interesting. And when you work, you know, you're, and I'm jumping around, but your partner, Glen, he doesn't, he lives not in la So how do you guys do, what do you work in on Zoom? Is that how you guysJonathan Aibel (00:54:24):Yeah, we, oh, we've been Skyped for, for years and years. Just, just audio. Just, I'm a, I'm Aist and I'll tell you why. JustMichael Jamin (00:54:32):Yeah, go on. And why just audio?Jonathan Aibel (00:54:34):I'm a Skype because Skype lets you Skype out. So you can call people's cell phones. So if our agent or lawyer or an executive or I know we need them to take a meeting, he's just stays in my ear and All right, let me patch him in and then you can Okay. Call. also we started before Zoom,Michael Jamin (00:54:49):Right?Jonathan Aibel (00:54:50):So we're And why no video?Michael Jamin (00:54:52):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:54:54):Is, initially it was for bandwidth reasons. It was laggy at Skype at one point, and Glen was out in the sticks and didn't haveMichael Jamin (00:55:03):Because you could have used a cell, a phone. You know that Skype without video. It was a phone.Jonathan Aibel (00:55:08):Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of other things we could do, but we realized I don't need to see him staring at me. I, I don't, I, and I, I'm not like the old married couple. We're okay with the silence.Michael Jamin (00:55:21):And do you,Jonathan Aibel (00:55:22):When you're going like this and you're not hearing anything,Michael Jamin (00:55:24):Are you on final draft collaborator? Is that what you're doing? Or what? No. Well, how'sJonathan Aibel (00:55:29):That? I know there's a lot of, there's a lot of that You could, we could do. And if it's real, really important, we might say, oh, let's, like now we outline on, on Google Docs.Michael Jamin (00:55:41):Okay.Jonathan Aibel (00:55:41):Instead of sending Word documents back and forth, is this, are you working on Tuesday's version? No, this is Thursday's. Wait. Now you, now you can see it. And that's useful. But I, I feel like daring, there are two ways to write. One is staring at the words and the other is staring at the sky. Right. And one day, some days I feel like doing one Glen feels like one sometimes the other like, I don't want to even know what's there. I just want to, but who's coming up with stuff? In, well, hopefully Glen, there have been times where we'll come up with a whole thing and then say, you got that. I thought you were typingMichael Jamin (00:56:20):.Jonathan Aibel (00:56:21):So we, we usually sa

Bryan Behar is a writer/producer known for Wilfred, Glenn Martin D.D.S., and Las Man Standing. Join Michael Jamin and Bryan Behar in this deep conversation, perfect for emerging writers or aspiring TV Writers.Show NotesBryan Behar on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0066864/Bryan Behar on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bryanbeharBryan Behar on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bryan_behar/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMichael Jamin:Someone said, well, you know, when are they gonna, are they gonna bring back multi-camera sick? They should bring 'em back.Bryan Behar:They exist Uhhuh. But they exist either for the very old or the very young. But there's been an entire generation that has been raised without them.Michael Jamin:Right? AndBryan Behar:Which infuriates me because as a historian of the, of the genre, I look back as recently as a couple years ago, and in the previous, I think 60 years of sitcoms, the number one sitcom on the air, uh, in terms of total viewers had been a multicam in 59 of the six first 60 years.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jam.Hey everybody, welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jam. I got a special guest today. But you know, the way, um, the Letterman show always opens with, you know, my next guest needs no introduction. Well, my next guest needs an introduction, but he's like, . But, but you know what? All writers need introductions. No one's ever heard of any of us. But I'm here with Brian Behar and he is, dude, this guy's got a, he's a sitcom writer with a list of a laundry list of shows that he's worked on. I'm Brian. I'm gonna run through those cuz I'm sure you've forgotten half the credits. That's how many credits you have. AllBryan Behar:Right. I, I could name three, so please.Michael Jamin:, we started his, his career with the illustrious teen Angel, and then we slowly move up to working. I remember that show. I'd forgotten you were on work. You had some,Bryan Behar:I started with Ned and Stacy, but that may not have appeared on the, on your laundry list.Michael Jamin:Uh, my researchers who basically just download imdb did not tell me that. But we're gonna go on the IMDB order. , okay. That's accurate. Uh, then dag, remember that show with Andy and Eileen Baby Bob, you remember that show Baby Bob?Bryan Behar:The biggest hit I've ever been on ,Michael Jamin:Then a usaBryan Behar:And I still quit because I, as I told the Showrun my self-esteem can't handle running into anyone I went to high school with telling them I'm on Baby Bob. Sorry, Saltzman.Michael Jamin:Sorry. The, then a usa and then Andy Richter controls the universe. Guys, hang on. This guy's got so many credits then I'm with her. Although we're not sure if it's I'm with her or I'm with her.Bryan Behar:Brent Must Berger said I'm with her. So it was, I'm with herMichael Jamin:, I'm with her. I'm coughing. Then eight simple rules. How many of the rules did you ever get to before they canceled the show, by the way?Bryan Behar:Uh, we were on the fourth rule.Michael Jamin:Fourth rule. I was on, by the way, rules of engagement. So, oh.Bryan Behar:And I've done three shows with the working of the titleMichael Jamin:. Then, then the New Adventures of Old Christine. The, the old conventions of new Christine would've been better, but apparently that's okay. Then The Jake Effect.Bryan Behar:Yes.Michael Jamin:Weak shots. I don't even know what that is, to be honest.Bryan Behar:Oh, that was an, that was a highly touted one hour.Michael Jamin:Oh, so you can talk about some drama experience.Bryan Behar:I can talk about anything.Michael Jamin:It doesn't mean, doesn't mean what you're talking about, but you can talk aboutBryan Behar:Any Yeah, no, you're not gonna be able to stop meMichael Jamin: then. Big. Okay. Big shots then. True. Jackson vp, which was on NickelodeonBryan Behar:One episode. I, I wrote a, I wrote a story. Let's not get carried away.Michael Jamin:All right. Let's not give you too much credit then. Wil, which we worked on together.Bryan Behar:Yes.Michael Jamin:Talking Dog Show.Bryan Behar:Oh, that's where's our other Talking dog show? That that should have been a, uh, oh,Michael Jamin:Getting there. Glen Martin dds. No one knows what that is, but that's when we first worked together.Bryan Behar:But if you love, uh, Canadian cable Claymation shows you might like GlenMichael Jamin:. You might like it. Uh, last Man StandingBryan Behar:Like animation with a laugh track that isn't jaber. You're gonna love Glen. You're,Michael Jamin:That's how they promoted it. Then, uh, last Man Standing, which you were not one of the last men standing on that show.Bryan Behar:No, I was the first to go. ButMichael Jamin:. Well, Jack, no, Jack was the first to go.Bryan Behar:That's true. GreaterMichael Jamin:Was the first to go.Bryan Behar:Then he came back and then he went again, and then he came back. So, yes,Michael Jamin:I didn't realize he came back. Sorry. Then saved me. I don't know what that is. Do you know what that is?Bryan Behar:Give me a moment.Michael Jamin:Was that just a letter that you wrote to your agentBryan Behar:? Um, I did, I did write that letter from the writer's room of Save Me . Um, that was a show about Ann Hay, uh, think she Can Speak to God. And that was the least crazy part of the show.Michael Jamin:Oh, I did not know that. We'll talk about that.Bryan Behar:Yes, please.Michael Jamin:Uh, then we'll talk about Kirsty, which we worked again on You guys brought, I mean, me and my partner in on to do a freelance of that. And I had the great Cogan on the show a couple weeks ago.Bryan Behar:Oh my goodness. Well, you, you've got to everyone before me. Oh,Michael Jamin:I I, yeah. This is the bottom of the barrel week. IBryan Behar:Know, I saw on the list. I was like,Michael Jamin:. Really?Bryan Behar:So go ahead.Michael Jamin:Uh, I also have here Jennifer FallsBryan Behar:And does not get back up. Yes. All yes, I've heard them all. Uh,Michael Jamin:Ratings falls then Ned and Stacy we have on here. I don't know why it's, it's out of order here, but yes, that was 1997 N and Stacy there. And then finally, uh, you were the, you were the showrunner of Fuller House, the, the full House Free make.Bryan Behar:That is correct. I was,Michael Jamin:Now you,Bryan Behar:Is the first time you're hearingMichael Jamin:This. I had no idea. , you've, now you're fond to say that I think you've, like, you've worked on 20, it's 26 shows. Is that what it is?Bryan Behar:21 shows in 26 seasons,Michael Jamin:21 shows. And think about, so this is a career, guys. YouBryan Behar:Are, this is a hard way to do it.Michael Jamin:It is the hard way.Bryan Behar:Apply for a new job twice a year.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And it's act I mean, to be honest, it was, um, it was more doable then than it is now. I mean, now it's really hard to do that.Bryan Behar:I have no idea what people do now. Yeah. Which is, which makes me a sort of, sort of a sham as a, a teacher of, of sitcoms as I'm trying to, um, encourage and promote people to take a, take the, the risk and, uh, and jump in. But, uh, I have no idea what a career trajectory, uh, looks like today. It was, it, it, it it was very, uh, understandable when we broke in. Yeah. Like, it, like there was a clearer path and you're like, oh, I can go from show to show and there's enough sitcoms and there's, you know, I can just, if I lose one job, I'll just walk to the next bungalow on CBS Bradford and knock on the door and hope somebody else lets us in. ButMichael Jamin:That's, that's what I say. I say maybe I wonder if you agree. I say that, um, I think it's easier to break in now, but it's harder to make a sustain a career. What do you think?Bryan Behar:Um, well, I'm, I'm certainly not gonna disagree with you on your own show. I mean, you, you ,Michael Jamin:Please, if you do, I just edit it out.Bryan Behar:You have your burgeoning media empire here and I looking to be part of it. Um, God, how many does it? Okay. Um, I think you're right. Um, and by that, i I, I don't know if it's harder to sustain a career. I see a lot more people not entirely willing to commit to putting a career together.Michael Jamin:What does thatBryan Behar:Mean? Which, I mean, there's been such, um, on social media and in the press, there's such a sort of hype surrounding the concept of like the celebrity showrun that, and, and sort of with the advent of streaming services, that there's this idea that anyone can get a show on the air at any time and immediately jump from like an unemployed, unemployable, aspiring writer to a show runner. Mm-hmm. without doing any of the work in between. Like, you know, I know I hate to sound old fashioned, but you and I, we definitely put in the time working up the rung, working up the ladder. So when we finally got that call to run a show, I, you know, we, we had the skill set presumably, you know, we had been learning, we'd been acquiring a certain set of skills. Um, and I don't know that that is really like, promoted as much,Michael Jamin:But are you seeing people with not, with not a lot of experience becoming share owners?Bryan Behar:No. Um, but I'm seeing, but I'm hearing a lot of that's the aspiration.Michael Jamin:Oh, oh, yes. That's for sure. I hear that a lot.Bryan Behar:You know, like, you know, because I know you talk to a lot of people, you know, who were, you know, aspiring TV writers. And I, you know, I was doing a lot of talks on, on Clubhouse, and a lot of ask me anything kind of talks on, on Twitter and, and the, the question always sort of circles back to how do I sell a pilot to Netflix? How do I get a show on the streamer? How do I become a show runner? And it's not like, oh, what samples do I need Yeah. To break in? What skills do I need to move up the ladder? You know, it's just a different mindset. Like, it never would've occurred to me. I didn't, I didn't even sell a pilot or even attempt a pilot until I had been on 12 networks at college.Michael Jamin:It's so fun, Brian. It's like, maybe we're just the old guys, but this is exactly what I say all the time. I mean, so I'm glad that I'm not the only one saying it, or thinking atBryan Behar:Least. No, there are, there are two old guys in the Yeah, we have become the guys from the puppets, butMichael Jamin:The cranky old guys Yeah. InBryan Behar:Waldorf and Staler.Michael Jamin:But, but you, so I wanna actually wanna mention this. I wanna jump around for a second. So yes, you are also teaching at Chapman University. You're teaching, uh, is it television writing? What are you, what's their course?Bryan Behar:Um, yeah. Um, I'm teaching, I, I just, I started last semester from, this was my first time. Um, and, and currently in this fall semester, I'm teaching two classes. One is a sitcom writing class, uh, for graduate students, uhhuh. And one is a pilot writing class for undergrads. And then I'm gonna do two, they've already asked me back, uh, for two sitcom classes, uh, in the spring semester.Michael Jamin:Wow, that'sBryan Behar:Great. Yeah. It seems to be what I do. Uh,Michael Jamin:So you're enjoying it then? I loveBryan Behar:It. I love it. And I, uh,Michael Jamin:You weren't sure if you were gonna enjoy it?Bryan Behar:No, I, it, it actually took a little bit of Mm, a little coaxing internally in the family. You know, my wife had a bit of a come to Jesus moment with me. You know how, I don't know if you've heard the old joke, but they say that in Hollywood, you're retired for seven years before you realize it. Well, I had been retired for three years, and my wife was certainly well aware, and I was, I was starting to get it. Um, and she really was, you know, she really sat me down and said, like, you know, is this what you wanna do the rest of your life? Just keep banging your head against the same wall? Or is there, is there a wall you can go around and find something that gives you joy? And this has been great. WhatMichael Jamin:Exactly do you like about it?Bryan Behar:Well, I like not being on a TV show, which apparently Hollywood, Hollywood and myself have the same, likeMichael Jamin:You do have the same goal for you.Bryan Behar:They both, my, my, uh, agent manager, Hollywood producers and teaching, I'll see it the same way. .Michael Jamin:Um,Bryan Behar:No, I, I, I love, I mean, it, it, it's something so special to be around people who just are filled with nothing but hope and nothing but confidence. And, you know, it's really, I mean, if I have to spend my days around people who are positive and, and still love, have a love for the art and a love for the craft, and would give anything to be in television or be, you know, be by myself or be around a lot of bitter people complaining about why they're not in, you know, I'll take the four hours of driving down to Orange County anytime. Uh, it, it's, it's been great. And I didn't, I had no idea if I would like it.Michael Jamin:Well, first of all, it's not really a four hour drive.Bryan Behar:It's, it's two hours each way.Michael Jamin:Right. Okay. Um,Bryan Behar:So yes, for clarity's sake. Okay. It's not a four hour drive each way, but it is.Michael Jamin:But, and I'm sure what surprises you, cause it does surprise me, is just, is how much you actually know about how to do this. Right.Bryan Behar:That's the other fun part. I mean, that's is, I mean, and I don't mean it in like a smug, self satisfactory kind of way that like, wow, I'm, I'm smart, I've learned things, but when you're, when you're actually seeing it through the perspective of, of new writers and, you know, and new students and, and you're imparting knowledge on them, and, and it's, and like you said, it's not even knowledge that you're aware you have. Right. It's, we've almost picked it up by osmosis. But I mean, you know, me and I think you're a lot, you're really kind of the same way where, you know, we were both students of, of television, students of the TV history, students of the craft, you know, more than a lot of people who we did it alongside. I mean, so I think it makes sense. The, the two of us have found virgins of, of offering guidance and coaching and Yeah. And, you know, and trying to impart expertise. But it, it is, it is really satisfying and gratifying to, to realize like, wow, I, I actually did learn something. I actually have a certain level of skill. And, you know, all those years were not for, not, yeah. I'm spelling not differently in those two cases, butMichael Jamin:K nBryan Behar:O t not for nothing. Yes. , I mean, I know you're from the tri-state area. I should, I should have said it more colloquial,Michael Jamin:But, um, and so, yeah. Good. So, and you're enjoying that and you, the class sizes are kind of small or what?Bryan Behar:Yeah, I had, uh, seven last semester. My grad student was, is nine, and then 15, uh, I got 15 in my, uh, pilot class, you know, but it's, it's way tougher than I expected. You know, like, I, like they turn in, you know, like pages of a script or an outline, uh, the day before we go into class. And I, and I'm so like, you know, of, of the neurotic sense of I need to give them their money's worth, you know, they're paying a lot for the, so I write up about three pages of notes per student, per class. Wow. So, pilot class, that's, I'm writing up 45 pages of notes between the hours of two and eight on a Thursday night just to make sure I have something to give themMichael Jamin:A lot of work, dude,Bryan Behar:You know, you know, on Friday. And it's like, wow, you know, I, I used to do half the amount of work for a lot more money, but it, you know, I don't know that I would do that again. AndMichael Jamin:Let me be clear.Bryan Behar:And that's okay. I've made, I really have made my peace, which, which is threatening to people. You know, I had, I had lunch with a writer we both know the, uh, last week. And he is like, you, you want back in? I was like, no, I really don't. He's like, you can't be at peace. I'm like, no, I'm at peace. He goes, what if I offered youMichael Jamin:Go?Bryan Behar:Yeah. And I was like, he goes, what if I offered you a job on a, on a, on a pilot? I was like, okay, well first you'd have to get it on the air and you're not going to offer it. I said, but yeah, sure. Let's say you offered me a job. I'm not gonna like turn it down out of hand. Um, but I don't think it's gonna happen. He goes, yeah, probably not. He goes, your old partner's, uh, wife works at the network. She never let me hire you anyway. I'm like, then why are we having this discussion? You, you better pay for lunch.Michael Jamin:Could you wait, can you say who it was?Bryan Behar:This was Marco from, uh,Michael Jamin:Oh, Marco, really? MarcoBryan Behar:From, uh, yeah, from our Kirsty,Michael Jamin:Yes. Marco from Hello Marco from Kirsty.Bryan Behar:Hello Marco from KirstyMichael Jamin:.Bryan Behar:One of, one of my dear friends. But, you know, but I think, you know, for a lot of people that you know this, and I'm not singling him out, you know, that being a writer on television becomes one's identity. And, and it was for me for a long, long time, you know, you know, 25, 26 years, uh, of doing it. But it, you know, at some point you just have to read the writing on the wall, if that's, if that's where your career is at. And, and that's where IMichael Jamin:Are you still doing any other writing outside? Just for your, for personal reasons?Bryan Behar:Yeah, I'm doing all kinds of writing, but none of which is with the intent ofMichael Jamin:Making aBryan Behar:TV show, selling a pilot or, or getting back in, you know, on staff. Yeah. And, and that's, you know, you know, we've talked about this off camera a lot over the last, you know, five, six years just finding our own voices and, and finding other avenues to, to write on, you know, on my own. And so I'm like, I'm still writing a, you know, you know, a lot of essays. Um, I, you know, I, I had written I think 40 essays for the Huffington Post, um, over the past five years, another 20, 25 for Medium. And, and then I've moved my stuff over, uh, to sub stack. Um, so I recently wrote a, an article about growing up in Encino that was shared 10,000 times. Um, and I performed it at a, um, wow. I performed it at a spoken word, and I,Michael Jamin:And that was all from Sub, it got shared 10,000 times.Bryan Behar:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Wait, what? We'll plug it.Bryan Behar:Apparently. I know a lot about the Valley,Michael Jamin:But, and you have a lot of thought. We'll plug it again at the end, but I wanna make sure, might as well mention it now as well. What's your sub name?Bryan Behar:Oh, find You. I assume it's, it, it has to be Brian Behar. That's with Brian with a Y. But I can, I can check. I'm sorry. This is, this is not gonna make great television watching an old Jew look, look up his SubT. But, uh, I just, um, I just got O brian behar.com, but I just got two Twitter notifications saying that even though this, uh, episode hasn't aired, it's already been referred to as two JulieMichael Jamin:, Elon Musk's ahead of time.Bryan Behar:. He's,Michael Jamin:He's, he's, he's making it better. Um,Bryan Behar:Yeah, I've lost 10,000 followers in the last week, and I don't think I've gotten that much less funny. I, but uh, I mean, there's, there's just a Twitter at Trisha. Yeah. So, as you, but in, in reference to your other question, yeah. I'm still still posting a ton on Twitter and on, on Facebook. I, I wrote a novella, um, which is just a novel that I didn't have enough words to legally call a novel. Uh, I've been writing my articles, doing spoken words, so really doing everything but the stuff that used to pay me. And, uh, but, and loving itMichael Jamin:And loving itBryan Behar:And loving it.Michael Jamin:And that's great. I wanna, so I wanna circle back to stuff that I wanna ask you, how you broke into the business. Although it's odd because I'm not sure how helpful it is for people since so much has changed, but we might as well talkBryan Behar:About it. Yeah. I mean, sitcoms used to be on Kiddo Scopes when we were breaking in , you know, was it the Dumont network that gave me myMichael Jamin:First job? , yes.Bryan Behar:I mean, my story is sort of, sort of interesting for people who like ancient history, , um, you know, cuz in many ways I was an overnight success. I wrote one spec script and was on the staff of n and Stacy two months later. Um, but this was an overnight success that, that was seven years in the making, right? Um, between the time I graduated from college, brown University. Um,Michael Jamin:Oh, for applause. Nothing.Bryan Behar:Oh, for applause. Hold for salute. Thank you. Thank you. Everyone still holding, still holding. No one seems to, no one seems to care as much as, as I do, um, between graduation and, and, and even knowing at the time of graduation that I desperately wanted to be a sitcom writer, it was seven years between then and actually getting my first job Right. Um, for the first few years. It, it just felt as though it was not like a conceivable path in my mind. It's, it felt like that was for like the funny people. That's what other people did. Um, but I knew I wanted to write mm-hmm. , and that was something I discovered at Brown. Like, I, I went to Brown thinking I was gonna be a lawyer, like all dutiful Jewish boys trying to buy their mother's affection through grades, . Um, that didn't work. So I decided I might as well do something I actually am good at and something that I like. Uh, and I started to realize that like, wow, people seem to be laughing when I'm writing stuff for the school paper. So I knew I wanted to write comedy, but, uh, a job in advertising actually felt more, uh, conceivable to me. And, and as such, I went on that path and I, and I worked as a copywriter for seven years. AndMichael Jamin:That was in New York, or out hereBryan Behar:On the west coast. Started in San Diego, then Los Angeles, and finished up in San Francisco.Michael Jamin:Okay.Bryan Behar:Um, and I was pretty good at it, and I was starting to actually get like a, a decent amount of success and traction, but all the while I could not shake the feeling that I really wanna write tv. I really wanna be a comedy writer. And if I don't try it soon, I'm gonna reach that point where I am too successful or too well paid at, at something I don't wanna do to ever take the chance. So, um, my old partner, uh, was a college friend Steve, and he said, Hey, I'm writing a specs script. And I was like, wait, you don't wanna be a TV writer? That's my dream. He's like, well, I'm doing it with another friend of ours. I said, well, tell her we're not doing it. And he and I wrote it over a facsimile machine while he was in LA and I was living in San Francisco. We were never even in the same room. Wow. AndMichael Jamin:And he was an executive at the time?Bryan Behar:He was an executive. He frequently wore suspenders by choice.Michael Jamin:I'm sorry. He was a TV executive, right? He was at, was he at a, where was he? Wonder Brother abc. WhereBryan Behar:Was he? He was at Universal. He was at Columbia. He was at spelling and he was at nbc. Yeah. So he was well into that career, but he also, he was, you know, he wa he'd been to enough tapings and be like, wow, these people aren't that smart. Like, right. Like, I can write, I can write mediocre multi-campus, it comes as well as the next guy . SoMichael Jamin:You guys teamed up, you wrote a spec and then what?Bryan Behar:And then we, we were on staff two months later. HowMichael Jamin:Did you get into, how did you get into someone's hands? What,Bryan Behar:Uh, well, he was dating the woman who became our agent. ThatMichael Jamin:Helps.Bryan Behar:And so, so there is thatMichael Jamin:,Bryan Behar:I mean, he had dated her earlier. They had met in the, uh, UTA mail room. Hi. SoMichael Jamin:That's right. She, she was my, our agent at one point too.Bryan Behar:Yeah. Um, but like I will say to our credit, like, she was like, you have to send it to me. But we were, we thought that it was almost not kosher and it sent it to some other people who were gonna sign us Uhhuh. Um, so it was a good, but here's the thing, it was a good spec. Um, and I see why we got hired, but we took a year to write it. Yeah.Because like, you know, we had unlimited time. There was no constraints of being on a show. And then we get to our first job and they say, oh, well we need our, your first script in a week. Right? Well, we had no, we had no system in place. We had never even been in the same city. Right. So we totally panicked, wrote it as quickly as possible, turned it in, and we're like, I think we did it. And we got called in by our boss, Michael Whitehorn is like, guys, you know, I have to say about this script. Like, it reads like a Marks Brothers movie. And I was like, well, thank you very much. I I appreciate. He's like, no, this is terrible. He goes, I love the March Brothers, but that's not how you write tv. He goes, there's no story, there's no setups.It's just bouncing from joke to joke. Mm-hmm. . And it literally read like it felt writing it like it was done out of panic. Yeah. And he, and he told us he was gonna have to fire us. And this was like, you know, I finally was living my dream after years and years. He did. You already. And, and within like a month it was, it was all gonna go away. And I had quit my career in San, in San Francisco in advertising. Moved down here. I had just gotten married, you know, I always like to say, other than death, divorce, and space travel, I took on all of life's great stressors in one month. But did And did you get fired from it? We did not. What happened? Here's some advice for you young folk. Yeah. Cause I know young folks like this podcast. Um, they might, they might to laugh .Um, he said, well, legally, I have to give you a second script. So you know how long ago it was when you had a two script guarantee? Yeah. He goes, so I might as well let you write it anyway cause I don't have to pay you. Right. So at that point, we, we had nothing to lose because we'd already suffered like all the indignity of being fired and everyone in the room knew it. So we kind of just slowed down and like pieced it together a lot more carefully and a lot more artfully. You know, we still, you know, we still had a ton of jokes, but it wasn't in this like, frantic style. And he, and he, to his credit, he said, this is so much better. I'm gonna, I'm taking it back. I'm gonna let you keep your job. And we ended up staying there for 24 episodes and we wrote four of them.Mm-hmm. , and we were, you know, sort of off to the races. But it, you know, so much attention is given to getting that first job. And so little attention is given to how do you keep it? Yep. How do you get the second one? How do you go from jobs two to jobs three and four? And that's like, that's the stuff that I'm trying to help people with both online and in my class, which is anyone can kind of break in with like, you know, and I've heard you talk on your, your ticks about one hit wonders. Like, that's not what people should be aspiring to. They shouldn't be aspiring to, well I, I, you know, I sold this one movie, or I sold this one pilot. But how do you get on a show? How do you, how do you keep, how do you stay in the boss's good graces mm-hmm. , how do you make friends on a staff as a staff writer, um, without being the annoying staff writer who feels compelled to fill the air with your voice mm-hmm. because you think that everyone's judging you and keeping score. And these are, you know, again, these are all super valuable, but, you know, lessons that are kind of lost arts in my mind. Um,Michael Jamin:I totally agree. It's also, you know, when I, the first script that I wrote, this is even Withouts before I met my partner, it was a good script. It got me signed by Bro Cro and Webner. But I thought I would never write. It wasn't my first script. It was the first script. I guess it was good, but I, I thought I would never do it. How could I do it again? I don't, I I got lucky. I didn't know how, I didn't know what a story was. I just got lucky, you know?Bryan Behar:Yeah. I hundred percent felt that and felt that for a long time. I mean, when I was writing like samples, and again, I, I, I sort of jumped ahead and didn't mention that I was trying to write samples for all seven of those years.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Bryan Behar:And I tried it with three or four different partners. I tried it on my own. Interesting. Um, and my real issue was I couldn't finish. You know, like people always say like, what, you know, what's the, what's your biggest advice? I'm like, finish a script. Yeah. Because I would belly ache at coffee shop houses all over Le Brea. Like, why am I not on staff? Oh, do you have a sample? Well, I've never finished oneMichael Jamin:,Bryan Behar:You know, but like, how did people not know about me? I, I won't stop talking about it, but like, I think I, I, deep down I felt that if I were to finish a script and I don't get hired then like I no longer have a sustainable dream. Like as long as it was still out there, it was something that I could always like shoot for as a safety valve if I didn't like what I was doing in advertising or in life. But once you finish something, then it becomes tangible and people would read it. But if you don't do that, it it, there's no way for them to advance you. So, uh,Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's so interesting you say about keeping the job I did. I definitely talk about that as well. It's like, how do you keep your job? And so I've seen, I've seen so many, and you must see more than me, but young staff, writers just flame out flame. They get, it's a shame cuz you get this job, but you're not ready for it. And then you're done.Bryan Behar:You, I've seen so many people get the first job and never get the second job.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Bryan Behar:If you get the second job, there's a pretty good chance that you're inMichael Jamin:Uhhuh.Bryan Behar:Um, now again, that was in the mid nineties when NBC alone had 18 sitcoms on its fall schedule. Yeah. I don't mean 18 sitcoms on all the network, I mean, just on one of the networks. And it's not like the others, you know, were only doing, you know, biopics you, you know, this was an, an era where there was a clear path forward where you could, you could rise through the ranks. You could go from show to show you could take, you know, good credits and get a better job on another show. Mm-hmm. . Um, I mean we used to always, always, before we knew you guys, we used to resent the hell out of you. We're like, you know, cause we, you know, we'd been on like 10 shows while you guys were on Just Shoot Me in King of the Hill. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Bryan Behar:And it's like, wow, that is a, that is an entirely other way of doing it. Which is we, we would look at you and like, so you're telling me you can get on a really good show, stay there, do a good job, stay there for a long time, then get on a better show. Yeah. And do that for a long time. And that was, you know, andMichael Jamin:A lot of that is luck. Like, you know, we got on a good show and it went four seasons and you got on a show that didn't get, you know, four seasons and then you have to, and so yeah. A lot of that is, you know, that's just luck really. You know,Bryan Behar:A lot of it is. Yes. I mean, and yet, you know, like now I've had some opportunities to sort of reflect back on my career and there are situations like old Christine for example, which ran for six years, but we just ran for the first 13 episodes. Right. Um, you know, if I knew better how to play the game, um, or you know, not to take defeat so much to heart. Um, you know, and a lot of that had to do with like, sort of grappling with depression and a lot of things mm-hmm. . Um, but like I, you know, if I knew now, if I knew then what I know now, I think there might have been a few opportunities along the way where I could have kept a job for longer. But, um, nothing I can do about that now.Michael Jamin:Not that it, not that really makes a difference, but Do you, do you see any change between the way young staff writers are today? Like when you were doing one of your last few shows and the work when you were first starting off, do you see a change in their attitudes or their readiness or anything?Bryan Behar:No. Um, I'm, I'm trying to think. You know, because I, I was very fortunate on Fuller House that I was able to promote a ton of younger writers from within the system, uh, and, and was able to give them their first staff writing jobs. Right. Um, and like that was a little different than how I had done it, which was, you know, in my case. And I think maybe, maybe in your case, but I, I don't wanna speak for you. Like, certainly in our case it was you write samples and you break in as a staff writer. And I see more and more that the only way in for a lot of people is to take other jobs on a show in the production working as a PA and then working up to a writing's assistant or start as a writing assistant then becoming the, you know, the, you know, the writing supervisor or, or you know, like that that sort of path, uh, of promotion from within seems to be a lot more common. I know that didn't answer your, that didn't answer your question specifically about the writers themselves. No. They, they seem just like young writers mm-hmm. who were, you know, who were appreciative of the shot. It seems like they've all been maybe out in the cold a lot longer than we were Yeah. Uh, before they get their first break. And I think there's less certainty about what comes after because there just aren't as many sitcoms in general and multi cams in specific.Michael Jamin:I did a post about this just a couple days ago about, cuz someone said, well, you know, when are they gonna, are they gonna bring back multi-camera sick? They should bring them back. And I was like, you know, at some point, maybe in 10 or 15 years, it might almost be impossible because whoBryan Behar:It might be Im now.Michael Jamin:Well, why do you thinkBryan Behar:So they, they exist Uhhuh, but they exist either for the very old or the very young mm-hmm. and there's been an entire, and I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you, but there's been an entire generation that has been raised without them.Michael Jamin:Right.Bryan Behar:And which infuriates me because as a historian of the, of the genre, I look back as recently as a couple years ago, and in the previous, I think 60 years of sitcoms, the number one sitcom on the air, uh, in terms of total viewers had been a multicam in 59 of the six first 60 years.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Bryan Behar:Um, and this even includes like, you know, what you might call like the heyday of the single camera era. And yes, there have been a few hits that have become sizable monsters like Modern Family and The Office, but the Office even more so, you know, once it became syndicated or once it went to Netflix. Um, but even during that, those shows having their heydays, the top rated sitcoms were still two and a Half Men and Big Bang Theory. You know, I mean, I am someone who strongly believes that, that the multi cam has always been more popular than the single cam. But, and maybe we've spoken about this before, but executives didn't think it was as cool to talk about it at their, you know, west side cocktail parties. And nobody wanted to be the one who developed, you know, a big embarrassing show with a laugh track. So they would just keep plowing ahead.Michael Jamin:But they always say they're looking for it because it costs less money.Bryan Behar:They always say it, but they never buy them. Yeah. And in fact, many times we would, Steve and I would sell a pilot to someone, um, as a single cam knowing that that's the only thing that those networks were putting on that year. And they say, no, no, no, we're really looking for multi cams. They would change our pilot to a Multicam and then pick it up and say, well, nobody's, there's nowhere, nowhere on the schedule where we can place us a multicam. Yeah. There's, wait a second. You made me do it. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Um, why do youBryan Behar:Think, I'm not gonna say it would've gotten on anyway, so, butMichael Jamin:Why do you think they couldn't make it today? Do you think it's just a scheduling thing? Cause I had a different feeling about it.Bryan Behar:I think it's a scheduling thing on the one hand. Um, and I've read some articles recently about the difficulty in scheduling multi cams alongside single cams. There was an article just like this week in fact. But beyond that, I think it's, it is almost just like, why isn't there rock and roll on Top 40 radio because there hasn't been in 15 years, so there's nobody alive in that age demo who would listen to it.Michael Jamin:You think so? You think it's a viewership thing? Cause I don't, that's not what I do. I think the problem is, is I think it, when we jumped on a set, you know, when we first were on sitcoms, like, especially in Multicam, there's so much to learn about how to produce a multi-camera show that we weren't, we weren't even thinking of like running one in 10 15. Like, it was like, I don't know how to do this. Even when I'm working on it, I'm like, I wouldn't be, you couldn't put me in charge of this. And then, but now, but you, but you come out of a school. So like we were on Just Shoot Me and that came out of was on Frazier. So we kind of grew outta the Frazier School, which grew outta the cheer school. So there's like this column of like writers before you that you learn from.Bryan Behar:Yeah. It's like coming out of like the Bill Belichick coaches tree. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Right. VeryBryan Behar:Similar. You if you're, if you're a, you know, a co-executive producer on, on one on Levian show, then you can be the executive producer on when you get a deal on your next show. Like, very common to putThem,Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.Now, like if you wanted to put a single, a multi-camera show on the air, where's the talent pool other than a bunch of old guys or people who've never done it before?Bryan Behar:Yeah. And, and, and like, you know, I sounded a little facetious earlier when I said it was the purview of the very old or the very young. But like, I mean that both in terms of the people who create it and the people who watch it, you know, it, it's either like pretty old fashioned, the last remnants of like CBS multi cams mm-hmm. or it's a Disney channel, Nickelodeon show. Right. Um, and what used to be like the mainstream of comedy doesn't exist that that really vast middle Yeah. Isn't there anymore in terms of, of multi cams, either in terms of like the space that's given on the schedule or in, in the age of the people who consume it. Yeah. Um, so I just think that people now think of it as old fashioned and kind of, there's a superficial, there's a fakeness to it.Yeah. An artificiality, not superficial, an artificiality to it. Cuz now that they've seen enough comedies that are written, you know, written and produced like little movies mm-hmm. , you know, I think it's part of this, it's part of the movie of TV that's happening in the more general sense mm-hmm. that, you know, when you look at the streaming services and, and I, and I think me teaching a class on pilot writing and like of the, of the 15 kids that are writing pilots, 14 are writing one hours mm-hmm. one is writing a single camp, but of the one hours most are done in like, in genres of, you know, it's superheroes, it's science fiction, it's it's space and it's zombies. Yeah. You know, like all of which wouldn't have been on television when we were breaking in. Yeah. It was multi cam comedies and procedural dramas and that was it. It was, and it was like you could wrap your hands around it. It doesn't mean that it was like a glorious time in terms of, you know, this great diversity of product, but like from the perspective of people trying to, you know, like rise up through the hierarchy, it was a lot more tangible and easier to comprehend. Yeah.Michael Jamin:I was even thinking of shows, like even the shows were like, gimme a break or, or small Wonder. Like, those shows were also very comfortable, you know, or Punky Brewster, like they were comfortable shows they don't exist anymore.Bryan Behar:It feels like you're setting me up. But I am, I have long been of as much as I try to write edgy stuff and like you and I were on Will, I mean, you know. Yeah. Like we both have, you know, the bonafides of, you know, to write cool single camera stuff. But I've also been of the belief that the calm and sitcom often stands just as much for comfort as it does for comedy. Yeah. And all those shows you described, um, there was a comforting, soothing value. Now some of it has to do with, we were young at the time, some of it has to do with our own nostalgia for an easier time. But I mean, that's why I got into sitcoms in the first place because, you know, my family life was pretty rough. I didn't have a ton of friends, but I loved the Brady Bunch. Yeah. Um, and I found that even like, at a very, very young age, like I found that world incredibly soothing.Michael Jamin:But that's not a good example. Cause that was a single camera show.Bryan Behar:I know. But it, it doesn't feel like a single camera show. Um, and you're right. But, uh, I mean, but whether, but it was still, it was still a family sitcom. Yeah. Um, and like for instance, like when I, like when we were first offered the chance to write on Fuller House, not to run it, but just, you know, to be a co-executive producer in the first season, I had no interest mm-hmm. and I was like, I never saw Full House. Um, but two, but two things sort of changed my mind. One was my daughter, who was like maybe like 13, 14 at the time, and she's like, you're gonna take this meeting and you're not gonna fuck it up. She's like, this is gonna be huge. Because she, you know, she knew the power of the original Full house as a kid who sort of grew up on the reruns and like whatever, she was homesick from school, we would tape her five episodes of the Brady Bunch and five episodes of, um, full House.It seemed easier than actually parenting or offering her medicine. Um, but that's neither hit nor the other. But the other thing was realizing like, okay, I don't know Full House, but I sure know the Brady Bunch. And that full house served the exact same function for kids who were 10 years younger than me as the Brady Bunch did in my life. And I'm like, oh, I know what that felt like to Yeah. I know what it felt like to be that age and, and want to be soothed by a TV show and wanna feel like you're part of a, you know, a surrogate family on the air. And, and that that really helped, helped me as a way inMichael Jamin:Yeah.Bryan Behar:So realize is that kind of showMichael Jamin:Yeah. It's an interesting, it really is an interesting time for writers. What are you, what are you, how are you advising your students to break in then? What are you telling them?Bryan Behar:Well, I try not to spend as much time on the how to break in mm-hmm. as to give them the tools that might open the door and might help them. And, and, and I, you know what, what I do, again, I'm, I'm, I'm sort of evading the question by design. Um, like for instance, I, I run my classes as if they were a writer's room. I push all the tables together. We sit around one big table with me at the front, like a big mock, just like the old days. Yeah. At one 20th. At one 20th. The salary. Right. Of, of, but like, I want them to get used to what it, you know, what it feels like to, you know, pitch amongst their peers what it feels like to, you know, offer an idea or a joke to somebody at the head of the table.So like, as far as teaching them the craft, I think I'm doing a pretty good job. I don't know that I have as much wisdom when it comes to how does one break in these days. Right. Um, I alluded to in a teeny bit earlier, which is one of the things I will say is do not turn down any job on a television show mm-hmm. , because that has become more and more the only way in is to rise through the ranks. It, it is entirely a function of who, you know, so many of the jobs come from the people doing, you know, the non-writing jobs that, you know, that lead into it.Michael Jamin:But you also have to be ready. It's not, it's not enough to know somebody. Your script has to, you have to know how to writeBryan Behar:Well. Yeah. I don't know that you're gonna get those writing assistant jobs or those pa jobs even without a script. So, I mean, you have to have a great script now just to get those jobs.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. I wasn't aware ofBryan Behar:That. I think you do. I'veMichael Jamin:Never, I've never read any, I've never asked a pa or write assistant to read their, I'd rather not read their script.Bryan Behar:Yeah, no, I, I, I mean, I'm of the, I'm of the, I'm the same way. I just would rather assume that they, that they're funny. Right. Uh, you know, after the interview, but like you, I, again, since I wasn't running the show, um, when we started out, I don't know if they had spec scripts originally. Right. I inherited so many of them, you know, so, but you know, but what I tell them is like, you know, you're sitting there behind the keyboards. Like, nobody wants you to be the one pitching jokes all day long, but like, pick your battles. Like, you know, I've seen, I've seen writing assistants like win a job from pitching a, you know, lobbying a giant joke out of the corner of the room when no one's expecting it. Right. You know, and in some ways, like the pressure's off. No one is expecting you to save the day.Mm-hmm. . Um, and I always say like, if you really need to be funny, be funny at lunch, you know, like when you're just like, cuz then you were, if you're sitting around one table at lunch, you're all just people. There's not that same hierarchy. Right. People. And then a year from now when we say, oh, we need a staff writer, we were far more likely to say like, oh, so and so made me laugh, you know, you know, while I was eating my gato grill. Then, uh, you know, then have to read a stack of scripts. You know, you know, so like I say, like you can break it as a staff writer, the traditional way you can get hired, um, at, in another type of job. Like we've just been talking about within the production. And then there's all these writing programs that mm-hmm. Things still exist, even though Warner Brothers a few weeks ago said they were canceling the Warner program. They brought it back. They brought it back. Okay. Yeah. That's like, that is like the third way. And that, that's still a valid and beyond that, I don't really know how, I know people all wanna be discovered. Everyone, everyone wants to like write a pilot that gets bought by a streamer mm-hmm. and they wanna be a celebrity showrun. Right. And I don't know, I don't know that that exists, but it probably exists just enough that everyone thinks they can do it. Yeah. Like for instance, like I'm teaching at Chapman, which is a fabulous program. It like barely existed 20 years ago, and now it's like the fourth film school in the country according to the, you know, the most recent rankings. And like, their big claim to fame is the two brothers who created Stranger Things like in their twenties. Right. Like out of nowhere, I think they had one credit. And the next thing you know, they have a show that's the biggest show on all television in all mediums. Right. Streamer, cable pay, cable, anything. And I forgot broadcast that used to be a thing that we cared about. Um, but like, everyone's like, well, the Duffer Brothers did it. Why can't I create some, some genre of sci-fi? And it's like, you can possibly, but that's again, that's the exception. Yeah. What's gonna happen if you don't,Michael Jamin:I think that's exactly right. I think that's, that's the exception. It's, and it's such a remarkable exception that the media picks up on it and talks about it because it's what an unusual story. And then therefore people think, oh, that's how you do it. You know,Bryan Behar:And I guess that's, I mean, if we really were being fair, there's always been that media story of the V kid, you know mm-hmm. 20 years ago it was Josh Schwartz, he's, he's 11 years old and he created the oc Yeah. You know, there's always, you know, there's always someone who got, you know, I think James L. Brooks was one of them, you know? Right. Like, there's always somebody who in their twenties gets a show on the air and ruin it for everybody else. Mm-hmm. . But, but, but I mean, by ruin it by everybody else is it creates this illusion that all you need to do is sell a pilot, not learn how to write tv.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I, you know, I remember when we were first signed, or when I, yeah, I guess it was with Sheer signed and, um, our agent said, oh, oh, no, no. She said it to me before, before I was with Sheer. She said, you know, I signed one new baby writer a year. You're the baby writer. In three years you're gonna be running your own show. And, and I, and I, I, I smiled very play. Oh, that's great. And then after I hung up, I was seriously panicked. I was like, run my own show. I, I, I don't even know if I can write another script. Like that's the last thing I wanna do is run our own show.Bryan Behar:Of course. Now here's something I'm gonna admit to you that you're, you're gonna laugh at me. And, and, and That's okay. It would not be the first time. Like Steve, and, and, and I can't talk too much about it because it's part of ongoing litigation, some of the specifics of this. But Steve and I were offered the opportunity to run Fuller House, uh, beginning season four.Michael Jamin:Mm-hmm. .Bryan Behar:Um, so we had been doing this for I think 22 years. I was like 53 years old, 52 years old. And I said no, because of the thought of running a show, even with 22 years experience, even at 52 years old, seemed inconceivable to me. Yeah. Now, you know, I have a history of severe panic disorder and a lot of other things that, that contribute to that. And then they came back and offered it to us again. They're like, no, no, we, we thought about someone else, it's you. And we said no again, um, because no, now we're, we're in a kind of an extreme case, but part of it was a function of that ship had sailed in my mind mm-hmm. as far as like being a possibility. Like when you, when you're hitting your, your, you know, your your early to mid fifties and you've not run a show, I think in it's a, it's a, it is a fair assumption to say that the business doesn't see you that way.Mm-hmm. , like you're, you know, Steve and I were very competent number twos and very competent number threes mm-hmm. . Um, but the thought of actually like taking on the big chair still seemed like something that like engendered panic. Yeah. And, and then, you know what? We did it and I loved it and I, I loved doing it. I was eager to do it again. Um, you know, we did 30, 31 episodes, uh, under our helm and like started to take on responsibilities and facets that I'd never, ever even thought about. Right. It was great. So, and I, so even though I never got to do it another time or another time yet, I'm thrilled that I was able to get past that fear because it really was like the sort of the last fear that was out there for me.Michael Jamin:But the thing is, when people say that, when people say, I wanna run my own show, and I said, do you, you don't even know what a Showrun does. Like why would you, like, why, why are you signing up for a job? You don't even know what the job entails.Bryan Behar:Well, because they've seen Matt Wener give an interview at the end of Madman or Vince Gilligan, the end of Breaking Bad. And they know that like, you know, they know what their salaries are and they know their celebrities. Yeah. You know, and they get good, you know, they get good tables at Mr. Chap. I mean, I don't know, but like, I didn't know what his, there was no such thing as a celebrity Showrun when we were breaking in. Like there were, yes, there were successful people. You know, like I was very aware who created Seinfeld and friends and who created Cheers and what the back ends were. Right. But that thing where, and it really is kind of a function of premium tv, like sort of the Post Sopranos one hour world, you know, the Mad Men, Sopranos, breaking beds, the Shield, the Wire Deadwood, like those have really kind of deified the one hour show runner as like pop culture celebrities.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Bryan Behar:And they've, they've sort of become the new film directors. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Right.Bryan Behar:So everybody wants that.Michael Jamin:Right.Bryan Behar:And again, like if you see the Duffer Brothers do it, you know, at, at 28 years old or however, however young they were, um, people are, people rightly do ask Why not us? Mm-hmm. . But again, like I had been doing TV for 22 or 23 years before I took over that show and still had no conception of what running a show entailed. Yeah. In terms of just the sheer enormity of the pressure of the responsibility. And that was with two of us, and that was with two of us dividing the task. I had no idea how someone does that on their own. Yeah. Cause even with two people that felt like, like, like a, her her lay super human effort. Yep. You know, and I'm sure you found the same thing, like, um, there's so many different, you're making a decision all day long, every day at a furious pace. Yep. And yet there's nothing like it. Like it was such, it was, you know, and I don't mean like just from like a, the standpoint of like, I felt powerful, but like, there were like, having such a sense of purpose every day was fantastic. Uhhuh,You know, overcoming fears and like developing like a skill like that I didn't even know I needed to possess. Like, that was interesting. Yeah. You know, so I feel, I mean, it certainly helps me as a teacher because if I had never run a show, I'd feel like a little bit like a fraud offering notes and like fixing scripts and mm-hmm. having now having done it, like at, I'm not gonna say the highest levels, but a high level. Right. Um, you know, I feel like far more qualified to be the one teaching people. Cause I feel like I've done at least the equivalent of that in, in tv.Michael Jamin:Yeah. It, it's, it's interesting because even as I, before I started doing, like talking on social media, I was like, well, you know who, I'm not Vince Gilligan, I'm not Chuck Lori, I'm not Steve Levitan. I'm not, I'm not the highest there is, you know, um, what,Bryan Behar:Well, two things come to mind. Number one, don't sell yourself short because you're still super high within, you're still super high within the, you know, the pecking order. Like, once you take out those, those few brand names, right. You've done it. You've, you've run multiple shows. You've run multiple good shows and people liked working for you. And, uh, you know, like the, the job we did together on, on Glen Martin was a pleasure. And, uh, you know, that's probably the closest I ever felt to like really writing in my own voice Yeah. And kind of just letting go and not being self-conscious and just writing whatever felt silly or funny. Right. So that's one thing you've done. But the other thing where I think you have a leg up in fact, is what was the last time Chuck Laurie or Steve Leviton had to really think about what they were gonna do next and plot accordingly. You know, like both of them just go to CS and say, get me a get me, you know, get me a show on Hulu. And they do. Like, but that's not like how people in real, in real life behave.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I, that's one I talked about with my wife. She goes, well, yeah, but that, those are the superstars you can talk to. You can speak to what does it mean to be a working writer who's not a superstar? Who'sBryan Behar:That's, that's a hundred percent right. It's a little insulting that our wives know about people who are superstars and they, they tend to usually be taller, um, Who had a here, but like, um, I don't, I don't know that Steve Levitator or Chuck Laurie or you know, or Larry David is gonna speak as, you know, as succinctly or as I impactfully as you do about, you know, the like day to day mechanics of breaking in, building a career, keeping a job. And those are, you know, those are the things that I talk about day to day. And, and now I've moved on to the third, you know, the third thing, which is how do I build like a sort of a purposeful life outside of the writer's room, right. And, and try to use the skills that I developed or the knowledge that I accrued and either help others or, you know, game satisfaction for myself. And I'm, you know, trying really hard to still do both without, you know, the, you know, the old crutches that I used to have, which is, you know, getting laughs from a, from a gaggle of Jews,Michael Jamin:It's so,Bryan Behar:And JBMichael Jamin:N JB, we, um, you know, I, when people, they'll comment on social media, sometimes I'll, I'll make a post and then I guess people are, I dunno if they're being argumentative or just trying to impress me or whatever, but they'll say, yeah, but Quentin Tarantino says, and I'm like, Quentin Tarantino is anybody just, is anyone mistaking you for Quentin Tarantino ? Yeah. No, I mean, have his career,Bryan Behar:But I mean, but they're, they're, I mean, it's beyond annoying, but that's always been the case. I remember like my, one of my first or second jobs running into like, the wife of someone I went to college with, and she's like, why aren't you on Seinfeld or South Park? That's what we watch. Yeah. You don't watch the shows you're on. It's like, okay, first of all, like, you're a viewer. You didn't create either of those shows unless you're, unless you change your name to Matt Stone. Like you're not those people. So like, pipe down a little. I said, secondly, you have to think about this. Like, it's the nba, like, hey, like I'm coming out of college, I wanna be on the Lakers. Who gives a fuck what you want? You were drafted by the Pelicans. Like, like, we don't get to choose where we write.Yeah. Like, oh, Tarantino said like, okay, you're not Tarantino. Like, trust me, I'm doing better than you are. So like , you know, I mean, yes. But that, I mean, that's gone on forever and ever. I'll tell you a story. My grandmother re she rested me. She just, she passed away a year ago and she ended up being, she lived in 99 years and eight months and ended up dying as a very kind person for like the first 95 years. She wasn't Right. And like, she would admit that, and like, we had no relationship and like on, I, I had been on four jobs at the time. Um, and on all four she told me how much she didn't like the show. I was on . So she invited Beth and I out for dinner. I hope it wasn't Glen Martin . No, no, no, no, no. That would've been later that she didn't like, okay, what's, she's like, who watches Claymation ?Why is there a laugh track? Scooby . But she, so she invites Beth and I have to dinner with her and her, her boyfriend. Um, and she's like, oh, that show that Then Stacy, I hated that show. And I'm like, oh, well I'm on a different show now. Oh, I don't like that show either. Okay. And I literally said, grandma, like I, I'm happy to tell you that before I, right before I came to dinner today, I came, I'm coming directly from a meeting. I had just had a meeting on Frazier. Uhhuh. Now Frazier at the time had just won the me for Best comedy five years in a row. Right. Anything's gonna oppress her. And she goes, Ugh. She goes, I hate that show. That's a dumb show, . So I say to myself, okay, and I turn to Beth, like, she can see that I'm soothing, and Beth and I are Huling and I'm like, the woman doesn't know anything about television.She's an older, she's an older Jewish woman from a different era. She's not gonna like anything you do. She, she knows nothing about television. I was like, you're right. That's why would I get myself upset? She knows nothing. And then she says, why don't you write something like David Kelly mm-hmm. . And then the boyfriend says, it's David E. Kelly. And then I realized, no, she knew a tremendous amount about television shouldn't . Like she knew chapter in verse, everything that he had written from Allie McBeal to picket fences. She just didn't like what I was doing. Right. , I don't remember, I don't remember how we got to this, but Oh, annoying people telling us our credits aren't good enough. Right. It's like, yeah. Like, I remember, I remember when people were on Raymond for the, you know, all nine years, and I'd be like, these lucky SAPs, like had, they haven't had to go through anything that we've gone through.They got one job. They had a, they had to go to a few movie nights on a Sunday with Phil Rosenthal never eat dinner there. Yeah. And to get nine years of fat paychecks. And that's just not, that wasn't our experience, but our experience certainly prepared us for more kinds of experiences. And I, and it certainly behooved me, I believe when it, when it was time to run a show, you know, I definitely had far more of an awareness of what I wanted a room to feel like mm-hmm. , uh, what I wanted it not to feel like specifically. Yeah. Uh, you know, based on having had so many different kinds of experiences. And that's, that's like 0.2 that I alw

Jay is an Emmy-winning writer and producer known for shows like The Simpsons, Frasier, George Lopez, Malcolm In The Middle, and School of Rock.Show NotesJay Kogen's IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0463124/Jay Kogen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jaykogenJay Kogen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jaykogen//Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsJay Kogen:Improv helps this to be able to risk. You don't know what's coming. You don't know what you're gonna do. And you commit to a character and you commit to an idea and you take it and see where it goes. It's no different than when you sit down to write a scene and you're about to commit to writing a scene. You might know where it's supposed to go, kind of. But this is what really, when it's time to commit to writing it,Michael Jamin:You're listening to screenwriters Need to Hear this with Michael Jam.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jam. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this today. I got a very special guest that none of you deserve to hear. You're just not good enough. But if you , But if you do wanna listen, pull over. If you're listening to your car, pull over. You gotta, because this is a big shot in the TV world. So with my guest, I have Jay Cogan and I have to, You gotta know who this guy, this guy's been around the block. Okay. He started at, I believe he started on the Tracy Allman show. He wrote on The Simpsons, the single guy, The Wrong Guy. This was back when he told his agent he would only do guy shows and everyone's like, This guy's out of his mind. But then he did Frazier. George Lopez. You did the first. I was in the other George Lopez.You're the one people think I run a Lopez. Nah, not that Lopez or Malcolm in the Middle. And I'm leaving off half your credits. I'm just skimming through this. That class Happi divorced to Troop Wendell and Vinny Kirsty, which is where we worked together for 10 minutes. Cuz I was for the freelance episode that we did. But that was only 10, honestly. That was a real fast interaction. Then Ned and Stacy School of Rock. And then now you're doing, I guess oversharing and Renaissance. I wanna talk more about that and the new Punky Brewster. I don't know how that happened, I wanna know more about that. But, okay, so my guest is Jay Hogan and I gotta say, I never told you this, Chad, but my first job was on Just Shoe Me. And so I was a young baby writer and everyone that, on that staff, it was like Laan and Andy Gordon Con and Stephen Engel and you were one of these names that always came up. It was j Hogan said the funniest thing on Frazier. J Hogan did this. He came into the room, he did that and you were on, Honestly, in my mind, you were like this mythical character. And even at the time I was like, I don't know if it's j Hogan or Jake Hogan. And I don't want to ask because I don't.Jay Kogen:No one does. No one knows. It's true. No one knows. It's tooMichael Jamin:Bad. Just ask. TrueJay Kogen:. I'm still mythical. By the way, just so you know, you're still, I may or may not be realMichael Jamin:Mythical. Right? Mythical, Okay.Jay Kogen:Yeah. Now you said I'm mythical. I don't know. So you don't know whether I'm real or not. SoMichael Jamin:I don't know. I don't wanna find out.Jay Kogen:I dunno.Michael Jamin:But we'll get to the bottom of this. PeopleJay Kogen:Who are driving, who pulled over, thank you for pulling over , I appreciate it. I hope you're safe. Put your hazards on.Michael Jamin:I So Jay, I got a million questions for you, but I guess let's start with the beginning. Everyone wants to know, how did you break in to Hollywood?Jay Kogen:Oh, it was a really rough ride, man. My dad was a writer producer, and I asked him to introduce me to some of his friends,Michael Jamin:. And let's talk about your dad. AndJay Kogen:I took it from there.Michael Jamin:But he wrote, and he wrote on a bunch of shows like Mary Tyler Moore show. What else did youJay Kogen:Write on? He did, he read, he wrote a Mary Tyler Moore, I believe. He wrote a Mash, he wrote A New Heart and The New Heart Show, Bob Newhart Show and Newhart, he wrote on The Covert Show and the Dean Martin Show and the Jim Davis show and the Donny Marie Show. And he worked on Empty Nest and he worked on a million shows and wrote one shitty movie,Michael Jamin:DidJay Kogen:Do it. It's called a soupy sales movie called Birds Do It. And my father was telling me that he can't bear to watch it . He hasn't seen it since 19 causeMichael Jamin:Rewritten. Cause Soki re rewroteJay Kogen:It. No, he wrote it completely. No, it's his fault. He's saying he's, it's horrible and it's his fault.Michael Jamin:But you grew up around it. So I thought you were from Brooklyn, but you grew,Jay Kogen:I was born in Brooklyn and my dad moved from Brooklyn. He was working on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. And he moved out from Brooklyn to come work on the Dean Martin Show in 1968. Jesus. And that was my first experience on a sound stage, was on the Dean Martin Show on a Christmas episode. And it said, Ah, this looks like a fun job. Little did I know that writing is not a fun job. Writing is a really unfun job.Michael Jamin:People don't realize that. But what was it? So what was it growing around it? Did you talk shop with you? I don't know. TalkJay Kogen:About I, my talking shop was gonna be limited . But even whenMichael Jamin:You got older, did he tell you how to write a script?Jay Kogen:No. I mean, here's the thing. You grew up in a family that I'm sure was a funny family. No question if you're funny. You grew up in a funny family. My father,Michael Jamin:My dad invented comedy , he told me he made it up.Jay Kogen:So my father and mother are funny and if I try to make a joke at the table and get them to laugh, it was a great victory. So you'd hone your skills to make people laugh at the dinner table or on the living room couch. And that's kind of your writer's room training. And that's how you sort become the jokey guy in high school or junior high and become the jokey guy. So jokes, jokes were stock and trade in my house and my way to win my father's affection. So I tried to get good at it,Michael Jamin:But you still had to learn story structure, you had to write a script.Jay Kogen:Well that sucked. It took me years to do that because I was done. I had money. Most writers, we had jokes, but we didn't really understand story structure at all. We thought we knew it was funny and we thought, oh, just put funny stuff down and that'll be enough and that is way wrong. But that's what I thought. And I wrote some spec scripts and handed them to my dad and he said, This is terrible. Become a lawyer. He would say, Do not try to become a writer. This is awful. I wrote with some successful writers today who I work with in school. The Billy Ray who was at Academy Award and nominated writer and Robbie Fox and mm-hmm , Wally Wolodarsky became my partner at The Simpsons and Tracy Ownership. And we wrote all the time. And my father would read these scripts and go, These are terrible.Do not get into the business. And so eventually I started working on PAing, on TV shows, getting people delivering scripts at three in the morning and getting people lunches, . And if I got it wrong, they'd scream at me and mm-hmm , all that kind of stuff. But I would learn, sit in the writer's room and watch them work out stories and figure out how they did stories. So that process was really enlightening. And so my partner and I, I tried to write a script and we wrote a script with a, it's for it's Gary Channeling show. Mm-hmm worked out one of their stories, which were always strange. And we did that. They kinda liked the script but they didn't buy it. And then we wrote another one and they didn't buy that. But then that became a sample that we got a job at the Tracy Allman Show from. And that's how it worked. And at the Tracy Allman show, under Heidi Pearlman and Jim Brooks and Sam Simon and Jerry Bellson, I started to learn that drama had a big part in comedy. And so there wasn't just jokes, it was jokes and story and characters that you cared about and situations that had impact and stakes and all those kind of things that you know about when you're a kid. But you ignore it and go like that. What's funny?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. It's so funny cuz I talk about this all the time. I wanna say you're gonna confirm, I guess hopefully. Or maybe I'm just an old blowhard and I just sound like an old frank. But I have a feeling you're gonna confirm a lot of stuff that I say. Cause I'm always like, no, the story's the most important thing. Jokes cut. You can always interchange the jokes. And people don't quite understand that whenJay Kogen:You can be a blow heart and also be right. So , those two things are not incongruous. But yes I will. When I talk to writers, I say that the story is first, character is second and jokes are third that you need the story is the hardest thing. Breaking a story is in writing is the hardest thing. Breaking a story, breaking it, making it sure that it pops, making sure that we're not going down stupid roads. That's the hardest thing. Everything else, the jokes are the easiest thing honestly. And the most replaceable thing, you don't like a joke, we'll cut it out and put a new joke in a character as they're very important. But sometimes you write something you realize, oh I have two characters that are the exact same person, and I, I'm gonna condense them into one person. Or I have characters doing the same, serving the same purpose in the story. And that's not a good idea. And so the story has to come first and that's always the most difficult thing. I always recommend to all writers, , outline your shit. Outline what you're gonna do before you're write. Show the outline to somebody, , get feedback on it before you waste your time writing a script on a story that's not gonna work.Michael Jamin:So that that's exactly right. I have to wanna bring this up cause I don't wanna forget this, but cuz my partner and I came in, we wrote, we did a freelance on the Kew Show, which we were on . And I have to say it was one of the most enjoyable experiences cuz it was like the last time, I mean I want to hear your thoughts on this. It was the last time I really was in a writer's room full of writers who had more experience than me because now it seems like I'm the old guy in the room now I'm the veteran guy and I really enjoyed working. YouJay Kogen:Made that in your brand, you were now that's your brand, you the experience guy . Yeah.Michael Jamin:But it was so much fun cuz you get to hear other people's stories, you get to hear their wisdom. There was so many heavy hitters in that room.Jay Kogen:Yeah, that was a fun room. I mean I've had a lot of fun rooms. The rooms are still fun when I go and do them. So like and am the oldest guy in the room now maybe, but I'm not sure sometimes. Depends on the show. But I've certainly been around a long, long time. So I'm going on, it'll be 40 years soon. That's a long time.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is a long time. Yeah. So what do you accredit your longevity to? Is it you're getting your last three jobs basically?Jay Kogen:Well, the same way I got my first three jobs. It's sort of praying, meeting the right people, saying the right thing, wandering into a stupid situation that you didn't know about. And suddenly they have job so not organized. And so this, they're these jobs and you should, you're going to audition for these jobs and this is how it's a much more hazardous, haphazard. There's a show here and they may need somebody and you should be developing something here and you have a million irons in the fire and we'll see what happens.Michael Jamin:So you're constantly hustling. So it's not like your agents just setting this up, Oh hey, they wanna hire someone that you fit the bill. Right? I mean it's not as easyJay Kogen:As that. No, rarely that rarely happens. And sometimes it does. But I mean honestly demographically, I'm not the key kind of person that they're looking for right now. . And there's a million reasons for that. I mean we should talk about that. There's a need, There has been a desperate need to make the playing field equal to all people from all different backgrounds and for many, many years, sort of Jewish white guys, Had a preference. So we're now the guy like me, Brooklyn Jewish, Brooklyn Encino Jewish guy is, there's a dime a dozen, there's a lot of us . And then there's a brand new writers coming from different areas of experience and worlds and different backgrounds and more women and more people of, of uh, LGBTQ and more bipo people. And they all need a chance. They're sort starting to get a chance. And that means there's less room for people like you and me. And there's shorter pickups and there's smaller rooms. And so it, it's become a lot harder.Michael Jamin:It's a lot more hustle. And so you're also developing, how are you going about developing? Is it your own ideas or what are you doing?Jay Kogen:Some are my own ideas, some are ideas that I have with other people that I meet and I think, oh that's a good idea. Let's see if I can fix that. There's a pilot we're working on called Oversharing that's based on a play that I saw at UCB about a year and a half ago. And so we took the characters and the lifestyle of the characters in the play. The actors were also the writers. So I went, worked with these two women in their late twenties about what it means you toMichael Jamin:Be. So you approach them, you approach them, you say, Hey, I wanna develop your show.Jay Kogen:Yeah. Yes. With the help of Naomi Odenkirk, who is a manager, not my manager, but had called me in to, had seen this and I wanted to work with her and she said this is a good thing. So she matched me with these people and we've been working on this together for a while. And now we wrote a pilot and we're sort of seeing where it goes.Michael Jamin:So, Okay. That's interesting cuz sometimes people, you write the pilot first you go out with a pitch but you decided to write it first.Jay Kogen:Well here's the thing, we had a couple different things going on. The writers who were the actresses who did this didn't have writing samples, but they wanted to be part of the show. So to prove that they are able to write, they wrote, so this is their first episode and they'd like to be in it too, but maybe we'll sell it without them in it. But this is to prove proof of concept. Here's this thing, we may not use it to sell the show, we may,Michael Jamin:And you kind of just oversaw it. You didn't help with the writing, you just directed them a little bit or noJay Kogen:. Well we pitched out the story together. I taught them kind of how the story structure's gonna work and and bring their play into a series. That whole transfer from interesting series, I guess I would get it developed by credit, something like that. But I didn't write the script. I helped rewrite the script, but I was involved heavily in the creation of it. So mean, my goal in this kind of thing is not to put my stamp on it. My goal is to take their world, their idea and bring it to life. And so the second I'm of putting my 50 year old guy brand on her, their 20 something life, it's gonna get ruined. So I just have to sit back and appreciate the world they're creating and then give my input here or there about maybe steering in certain directions and maybe this is what makes it fun of your story and reminding them what their goal was and who their characters were. Sometimes you'd lose that track of that.Michael Jamin:So how do you feel young writers have changed now? How are they different now than in attitude and preparedness andJay Kogen:Everything? So much dumber.Michael Jamin:So much dumber. ,Jay Kogen:They're the same. I honestly feel like they're exactly the same. Different, The writer's rooms are different. What we're allowed to say and how we're allowed to behave is different. Yeah, I'm not going to say it's better or worse. It's just different. In the old days, we could make fun of each other. . And I was famous for doing room jokes. I did jokes, a lot of jokes in a writer's room. Sometimes people would say things and I would die. Sometimes people would say things and I would run out of the room so that you could see me in the window and just keep on running. And if my car was in the visual aspect of when I would get in my car and drive away, I would do a lot of jokes. I would get physically ill at something that if I heard two people were kissing or something, like I would do jokes, , all of which was based on the idea that they know I'm joking.So I could make a joke about somebody who knew I was joking. I could make a joke about them or what they were wearing that day and they knew that I love them and I'm joking, right? That's not okay anymore. You cannot depend on people to understand your intention or even give a shit about your intention. If there's a joke at their expense, you're in trouble. So you don't joke about stuff anymore at anyone else's expense. We don't joke about their background, we don't joke about where they're from or who they anything about their lives. We keep it nice and businesslike and then we just try to do the work. So writer's rooms have become, ultimately for me, a lot less fun and a lot more, I wanna make a joke and I'm like, I can't do it cause I don't want to offend people, but I also don't want to get in trouble.And I think younger people can be offended. I'm, I'm working with some college kids now. I was teaching a class at USC and as a college professor, you have to really be on your, you're, this is not a writer's room, this is a school. But those writing students I'm working with all seem like they're making jokes all the time about all things. So they're more like I was when I was a young person, but I'm not making those jokes because I'm a professor. So I, I'm kind stay out of the realm of anything close to offensive or dirty or strange or anything.Michael Jamin:That's interesting. I didn't, didn't know, butJay Kogen:There's insane, I just wanna make jokes.Michael Jamin:I didn't know you were teaching at usc. How long have you been doing that?Jay Kogen:Half a minute. Oh, I had John Bowman, the writer, John Bowman was a friend of mine and he was teaching a sketch writing class and he unexpectedly died, which is good cuz when you expect to die, allMichael Jamin:Doesn't worse worth.Jay Kogen:So then they asked me to step in to fill, fulfill, fill it, the class that he was teaching. So I started doing that.Michael Jamin:Right. Wow. And I also know you, I didn't, But you're also doing, you do improv.Jay Kogen:Oh yeah, no, I've been doing it for my whole life. I started at the ground when I started in show business, my goal was to not be a writer. My goal was cause writing seemed, I watched my dad writing is lonely, it's quiet, it's intensive. , it seemed hard. I like working with people, I like having jokes, having good times. So I started being an actor and a standup comedian. And then when I was 16 I was, when I was a kid, I was an actor. When I was 16, I was still trying to be an actor and doing standup. And then I transitioned over to the Groundlings, which was a much better atmosphere to be part of than the improv or the comedy store. And I sort of figured out what character and story was based on that. That helped a lot. By the way, I do recommend that if you, you're a writer to take acting courses and take improv courses because you'll learn a shit ton of what you need to know. about being a writer. The other thing you need to do is take editing courses. If you can take a course in editing movies or editing TV shows, you'll learn what's important to keep in your script and what's not important to keep in your script. I didn't know a thing until I started editing.Michael Jamin:Do you have, But anyway, is there any goal, Is there a goal for you for, Are you just getting up there and performing is,Jay Kogen:What do you mean?Michael Jamin:Is there an end to it?Jay Kogen:You want, I'm hoping people throw roses at me. That'sMichael Jamin:My goal. But I don't know. Do you want to turn it into something or do you just enjoy the process of getting up there and performing?Jay Kogen:It's improv is cult a cultish comedy religion. So you do it because you learn the skill. It's like if I was a Glassblower and suddenly I learned how to make little glass animals when I was 16 and I still know how to do it and I like it. So I'm doing improv then the goal is to stay loose, keep your mind fresh. It helps improv helps this to be able to risk. You don't know what's coming. You don't know what you're gonna do. And you commit to a character and you commit to an idea and you take it and see where it goes. It's no different than when you sit down to write a scene and you're about to commit to writing a scene. You might know where it's supposed to go, kind of. But this is what really, when it's time to commit to writing it and there's a blank piece of paper and you have to be the character who says this other thing, then turn your mind to the other character that says this thing and what are they thinking and how are they acting and how are you being, and what does the scene look like and how do you fill the space with physicality and all the things.These are the things that you learn from improv and these are the things I still love doing it because it keeps me fresh and reminds me of that. It's fun to create.Michael Jamin:And how often do you go up?Jay Kogen:The group that I'm working with now go the Transformers. We go up about once a month and then I'm also an improv whore. And I will appear with any other improv group that asks me. Usually the Groundlings has a show called Crazy Uncle Joe and I do that sometimes. Or cooking with gas or sometimes I guess with another group. So it's just fun to work with different people inMichael Jamin:When you do that though, I mean, I know it's improv, but is there any kind of rehearsal with these people? Or are you up there for the first time with these people you don't even know.Jay Kogen:Again, it's something you've learned. You started by taking courses and saying, okay, this is how you do it. You agree , You know, pretend that you're stand up there and pretend that you're a bumblebee. Right. Okay. What would a bumblebee do? Bumblebee might go from flower to flower. A bumblebee might pollinate a, you just put your mind into the thing. So you slowly work up from the beginnings of improv, which is just agreeing. Then you're in a scene with another bumblebee and now you have to figure out what does one bumblebee want and what does the other bumblebee want in the scene. And you're a skill you develop to listen to what other people are saying, agree with it, add information, have an attitude, have a goal, and don't talk over each other and be physicalize the scene. These are things that you learn how to do over time and if you get good at it, you can do it forever.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you andMichael Jamin:It's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist. All right. So yeah, you were working, you knew , Tom Maxwell, and you're gonna tell that story.Jay Kogen:All right. So yeah, Tom was the runner of director of the Groundlings when I was there, and he had a very distinctive laugh and very distinctive kind of from one of the Carolinas, I forget which one.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I think it was North. Yeah,Jay Kogen:North, I think so Carolina. And he was great audience, a great audience. He loved the laugh, was wonderful to have. And he's the guy I interviewed with to get into the Groundlings to start working at the school. And then I worked starting at 16, I started doing the school and didn't get into the Groundlings until I was 18.Michael Jamin:Oh, interesting. Wow. So you really did the whole training there and that, Wow. Yeah,Jay Kogen:And there was the training we,Michael Jamin:I'm sure it was, I actually took a, So Tom was a writer, I think season three of just shooting me. And then he went up co-running it in the later years. And I remember he came in the first day, This is how important improv is. It's like the first day we're breaking a story and I guess he was just showing off and he just starts acting out the scene and doing all the characters. And I was like, look at this guy. Go. And we were all just staring and the writers says, We're all just staring. And I shoot the writers, I was like, Dude, what are you doing? Type start typing because everything he's saying is going into the script.Jay Kogen:Well, I've seen a lot of writers do that. James Brooks, James L. Brooks is able to do that. Just pitch out a scene from top to bottom. I mean, it's amazing. It's not, it's downgrading it. It's amazing when people can do that. But yeah, when we were at The Simpsons, we would pitch in character, People would pitch as Homer, pitch as Marge. We were , we used the voice and we were that. So it trains you to sort of pitch a joke and risk having everyone hate itMichael Jamin:,Jay Kogen:And by being improv,Michael Jamin:But it's also when you pitch a joke and it bombs, at least then you improv a funny back, a backup to it.Jay Kogen:I guess you can save yourself by acknowledging the bomb or not acknowledging it. It depends on how late its sometimes. Yeah, sometimes there's just silence. . Right, Let's move on, let's go pastMichael Jamin:It. Tom used to get very cranky around 8:00 PM I think is my bed. , you gotta work till midnight or whatever.Jay Kogen:Some people can't do the late nights.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well so how do you go about, even other than working with these other actors, how do you go about developing shows? Do you have a process? What do you think?Jay Kogen:Well, anything that inspires you, and then you check it out with your people and say, Is there a show like this already in development? Or do we think that we can attach good people to this thing? So have to figure out how to position it. You have an idea then how do you position it? Who's it for? Can you create auspices to join forces with you to make it a more powerful sale? When's the right time to sell it? All those kind of things go into the mix of that kind of stuff.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And so what do you usually try to team up with a producer? Is that what you, I mean?Jay Kogen:Right. This Oversharing project is now with Sharon Hogan's company called Merman Mer. So, so they, especially women's stories. And this is a women's story and it's like it's a good company when you're dealing with the story of women in their late twenties in the sort of dismal landscape of what life is like for them.Michael Jamin:. Right. That's so interesting. Yeah. And so, what was I gonna say about that?Jay Kogen:I have a show that I'm writing with that I'm helping some newer African American writers with, and we're trying to get Kenya Barris to sign on to be part of this thing. So he's a good auspices for that. And then I have a show about Jewish boys from Encino and Mel Brooks would No jokingMichael Jamin:About it. Nope, that'd be great. Yeah, I worked with them. I worked with them on Glen Martin. You brought 'em in. I damn, I'm directing Mel Brooks. It was very intimidating.Jay Kogen:Now Mel Mels not intimidating, he just won't shut up. But ,Michael Jamin:It was still like, I'm telling him directions. Who might be telling Mel Brooks how to play the line? Well,Jay Kogen:If he didn't like, like your directions, he'd tell youMichael Jamin:,Jay Kogen:Yeah, I don't wanna do it. I'm gonna walk over here. Gonna,Michael Jamin:Yeah, there was definitely the case. I remember I like telling him, ask him to get him again. And he goes, No, no, you got it the first time. I'm like, Sounds good to me. .Jay Kogen:We worked with him on the Tracy Oman show and he had a million ideas about what he wanted his character to do and we was just like, Okay, go for it.Michael Jamin: Mel Brooks. Wow. Well, so wait, I had a thought, butJay Kogen:To go back to your original question, how do you develop something? Call Reiner the great Carl Reiner speaking. Bob Brooks gave me advice and he said, Figure out the hill. You're standing on that only the vantage point that only you have and make a show about that. So interesting. Make it about your world or your point of view or your, something that's really on your mind that only you can see. And that was his advice. And I thought that was good advice.Michael Jamin:And we hear that a lot. It's like, why are you the only people to write this show? And then you gotta think of a reason.Jay Kogen:You have to lie and say, Well , this happened to me or this is my thing. But obviously when you're a writer, you're bringing something that's personal to you. It doesn't have to experienced the thing to have experienced the emotion that the thing is connected to. Sometimes the show is about love or sometimes the show is about abandonment or sometimes the show is about lack of credibility or the show is about ego and the specifics of the show are not necessarily the specifics of your life, but that's something that you're very aware of and something that's meaningful to you. And if it's meaningful to you, then it's gonna have a resonance that's gonna count. And that's what I try to do when I write something. It's because I relate to it and I feel it and I feel like there's a truth in it. Right.Michael Jamin:These are all good words. And how did you, let's say a show, the remake for Punky Brewster, how did you get involved in that? I'm always wondering how thatJay Kogen:Happens. My friends, Steve and Jim Armita had created it and produced it and I'd worked with them on a show called School of Rock and they hired me to help them. I mean that was it a friend a I not, I didn't know anything about punk. Brewster hadn't watched it. Oh, I didn't, no know much about it, but I got to know about it. And so then we tried to make, it had been the development for many, many years. Universal was trying to use their own properties and make something of it. And so that's what happened. It sort of came together over the course of five years.Michael Jamin:Wow. See it takes how long it takes.Jay Kogen:Yeah.Michael Jamin:And now people, I get this question a lot. I don't know if you have a good answer for it, but do you have a preference to do single camera, multi camera animation?Jay Kogen:Well, I think it's harder to sell a single camera show. Everybody wants to buy. Every network says they wanna buy a single camera show, but then they don't always buy mean, excuse me, Every network wants to buy, say they wanna buy a multi camera show because it's cheaper, but they always wind up buying single camera shows because they're cooler. And so I'd rather sell the show that gets made. And so right now I'm interested in selling single camera shows. However, I love Multicam. I do like the process, I know it. But I watch many Multicam shows going like, Oh that's great. Tv I think the single camera shows are better cuz they're more like movies. You don't have to lean on jokes quite so much. It's more about the story. If you tell the filmically there's no laugh track. So it's just funny is, and it's different experience. I don't know you when the Multicam, if it will ever pop back as a main force. But it's, seeMichael Jamin:It'd be nice. Now you, I didn't look, Have you done any direction directing?Jay Kogen:Oh yeah, I love directing.Michael Jamin:Oh you do?Jay Kogen:Okay. It, I would give it up to just directMichael Jamin:Really What You like it that much. A lot of guys, guys haven't given up to. Why do you like that more than writing?Jay Kogen:It's collaborative. I'm not alone in a room, I'm given, I have material sometimes I've written the material so I know the intention. But I like working with cameras. I like working with the actors. I'm an actor, I'm an old actor. So I like acting and I like actors and I like working with them and figuring out the big picture and figuring out, making sure that all the pieces in the editing room are there. Having edited many shows now, knowing, okay, we need this reaction and that reaction and we get, this is the joke, this joke needs to be close or this joke needs to be wide or let's have a choice. Those kind of things are great. And when I've directed film, single camera, film action things, they've been great. I love using the camera, I love using stunts, I love using and anything that I can envision. I love storyboarding stuff and making them happen.Michael Jamin:Who do you feel you've learned the most from? What directors have taught you the most?Jay Kogen:Hitchcock, I mean,Michael Jamin:. Sit. Come guys. I hate say,Jay Kogen:I mean they're all great. I've learned from every single director we've worked from, I've been lucky enough to work with Jim Burrows and I've been lucky enough to work with,I mean there's Victor Gonzalez and I've been working just all these directors who know what they're doing. A guy named Jonathan Judge who I work with , who'd really just knows what he's doing. He knows the feeling, he knows how to keep the set alive and people happy. And there's a lot to do when you're director and what and when you're TV director, you're really trying to fulfill the vision of the producers , which is great. And when I direct even on shows that I've executive producing, I'm asking my other writers, Do I have it? Are you good? Are we satisfied? I'm not just saying I got it and I want everybody's opinion. I want to change things if people don't have it. Cause we are only here on the set this moment. I wanna get everything we need to get. And I like being collaborative and I like hearing notes. Unlike when I'm a writer, when I don't want to hear notes. As a director, I love hearing notes. Interesting. I love adjusting. Can we get that? Yes, absolutely. Let's go for it.Michael Jamin:That's so funny you say that. Yeah. Writers writers don't like hearing that. Don't the same way. I don't want to hear your notes hard.Jay Kogen:I thought about it maybe the thing that I liked and now you don't know whether it's gonna work and neither do why, but let's go with my way. Yeah, that's the general feeling.Michael Jamin:And how do you mostly handle Jesus studio notes or network note. And when you turn in a draft from a pilot or whatever, what's your first instinct?Jay Kogen:My first instinct is to tell them to fuck off. I hope that instinct . And instead I say, Well that's a good note. Or I put them into three piles, Notes that are good notes and sometimes I get really good notes. Notes that are neutral notes that are just like, you want to go that way versus this way. And they're kind of the same but alright. And notes that are show ruining. So the only notes I will fight about are the show ruining notes,Michael Jamin:,Jay Kogen:Everything else. I will say thank you and what a great idea and I really appreciate it and I will, cause I wanna be collaborative and I wanna take it, if they think a green couch is better than a blue couch, then if we can get a green couch, let's get a green couch. Yeah, that's fine. WeMichael Jamin:Call those lateral notes. This note will move the script three feet to the right. It's gonna take, I'm be up all night doing it and alright, I'll do it.Jay Kogen:Just do it because they need it and they want it. And it doesn't hurt the show. The ones that hurt the show. You gotta say, now I don't tell me about that. Because I think that thread that you're pulling ruins the show. And so let's talk about the thing about it. If it's a story about somebody adopting a dog and then the dog ruins their life and they say something along the lines of, But maybe the dog is nice. And you go like, Well if the dog is nice, then there's no show because then we don't have the conflict that's at the core of this particular thing. So we're just throwing out the whole show based than that and this, Well, why do you want the dog nicer? Well it's too mean in this thing. So we can then distill moments where they think, okay, it's not having fun watching the dog X, Y, and Z. Let's change those things to be things that are more fun for the executives or other people to watch. Then we can save the show but not do the show ruining note.Michael Jamin:Right? Because often you'll get notes from people who don't have much experience in the business and they just have this job, they're giving you notes and you don't want to hurt their feelings, but they don't know how to do it yet. So it's a delicate dance.Jay Kogen:And also they're not idiots people, the network executives, every writer likes to think a network executive, they're all idiots have decided to do this other thing. But they could have been writers and they might have been writers in another life and have, the reason they went into it is because they like TV and they like stories and they have an opinion. So embrace them as your partnersMichael Jamin:That'sJay Kogen:Try to make them your partner so that you have a happier existence with everyone.Michael Jamin:We both work with Steve Bald Ows and I was surprised to learn that he was an executive for many years. I was like, What? I felt like you've been a SP these years.Jay Kogen:I didn't know that, but I'm not shocked he has. You didn't know that leader of an executive? No, didn't he? I would a hundred percent believe him in a nice sweater coming in work as an executive. Great.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I get that. I was shocked. But he told me he thought it was his opinion that all executives really just wanted to be writers.Jay Kogen:I think he's right that all they do. And when they give notes, they're saying, What if this is a great idea? They're hoping that you receive their note. It's like, oh that's what a great idea. Thank you for helping me write the show. And so I actually try to receive those notes that way as much as I can.Michael Jamin:It's kind of like you also building an ally. It's like the more people you can have think it's their show, then they're gonna help put it on the air and stuffJay Kogen:But not think it's their show. It is their show. They're the people who are shepherding it through the network. They're the people every, it is their show. It's not like it's not us and them, we are them, they're the same people. We have to be a team in order to survive how it's such a weird ass landscape of getting a show on the air and having anybody know it exists and having people see it. So you have to get them their publicity people involved and the network has to like it and put it in a good time slot and care about it. And it's so easy to get lost. You have to take care of your show. You have to really do a good job of bringing it through and get as many allies as you can.Michael Jamin:And how do you recommend young writers basically break in now? I mean, cuz the landscape is so different now. What do you tell people?Jay Kogen:It's the same. Write something great, keep writing something until it's great, then show that thing to everybody you can. It hasn't changed. Nobody wants to be a salesman when they become a writer, but unfortunately part of being a writer is being a salesman. And so you have to then suck it up and make call people and in a friendly way and get them to read your script. Obviously you call and say, I love your work and will you do me this favor of reading my script? And I would love your notes. Nobody wants your notes. They only want you to say it's the greatest thing in the world and I love you and I wanna hire you. But show your script. Sometimes you'll get notes and sometimes you'll get compliments and sometimes you'll say, this is terrible. And then start again and you know, have to really work hard to get through it. Plus meeting people and expanding your social circle is really important. So fighting a way to join groups and be part of schools or be part, not schools exactly, but be part of communities, professional groups and communities and find your way to expand that way.Michael Jamin:So you told people basically to come out to Hollywood too?Jay Kogen:Yeah, I mean I don't know how you're gonna do that from Des Moines. I meanMichael Jamin:H is not coming to you.Jay Kogen:Although if you live in Atlanta, if you live in places where they're making TV shows, it's possible.Michael Jamin:But they're still mostly doing the writing out here, aren't they? AndJay Kogen:Yeah, but there are lots of production, lots of people. And you can meet people and I don't know, it depends on where you're at. It's, there's a few places where production, you know, can live in New York City. You can live in Atlanta, you might be able to, Toronto and Vancouver. There are places where a lot of shows are being made, so maybe there, but LA is still the place to come, even though it's not, it's hard place to move to. It's expensive and weird and isolating and there's a lot of big parts about it.Michael Jamin:Yeah, so interesting. So great to get your take cuz I don't know, you're kind of saying so many things that I've said, but it's good to hear different.Jay Kogen:Isn't it great to hear somebody confirm all your ideas?Michael Jamin:I'm not crazy.Jay Kogen:Everything you've ever believed.Michael Jamin:Well, I have such strong opinions on when I talking to people and I'm like, wow, I could just be stubborn, but this is how I see it. But yeah, it's interesting to hearJay Kogen:You. But I mean it is new and you know, gotta write something new. And if you can get attention to something, if you can put up a show or make a , find a way to get attention to your project, to YouTube, short films, Make something on the TikTok and find out a way to be available and get your stuff out there, then you have a shot. But it's hard. It's hard. I mean it's hard once you have a show on the air, you're your old boss. Levitan has a show called Reboot that's on Hulu, I think. Yeah, I don't know who watches it because who knows It exists. It's probably, you have great cast and an esteemed writing team making it and it will come and it, unless people hear about it, nobody will know.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And one thing I also wanna stress for new writers is like, we're struggling too. We're hustling too. None of it's easy. None of it's guaranteed. It's working it to, I always say you gotta work to break in. Well, but it's too hard. Yeah, don't tell me it's too hard. I know I do it everything.Jay Kogen:It is a struggle. And you sort of want gigs coming, possible gigs come and then they go and then they don't happen. And it's hard to get in the rooms and it's all that kinda stuff. And when you're running a show, which I recently, I had a show that I was getting a writing staff for. I had a million phone calls from a million people saying, Hey, you got room. And I had to tell a million of them no. Right. Great people, really great people that I had to say no to because, And so when they say no to me, I understand why it's not the makeup of the room that that's going to make the studio happy. They have to make up a room that's going to make the studio happy. And there's only a limited amount of spaces for people like me. And that's a lot of us who need jobs. So it's an interesting time for that.Michael Jamin:So is there anything else? Is there, we can plug you. How can people follow you? I'm so grateful that you did this talk. I'm so interesting.Jay Kogen:My plug Jake Hogan at Twitter and Jake Hogan at Facebook and Jake Hogan at Instagram. And I have a TikTok account, but I don't post anything there.Michael Jamin:You don't know how to use it.Jay Kogen:I don't know how to use it and I'm not interested in making Little, Little,Michael Jamin:I think you should doJay Kogen:It. I did a dance.Michael Jamin:I think you should do it. Yeah. Get on a trending soundingJay Kogen:Right. But I do, every Friday we do something on my Twitter feed called Philosophy Friday. So on Fridays around four 30, I have a bunch of people we use. IMichael Jamin:Gotta follow you on that. I didn't know that. What's about,Jay Kogen:Well, we just talk about the life and love and fear and how to overcome the difficulties of the world. Usually I post a question for the week and we can talk about that, but people can also come and just talk about their problems. Now Twitter is famously the most vicious and horrible of all the social media. So my idea was why can't we have a little window of people who are actually nice to each other and care about each other and try to help each other on this platform of shit. And so that's what I've done and I've almost three years into this and know that it's been fun.Michael Jamin:Wow. Alright, so some people can get in touch with you. That's that's really cool. I got, now I'm gonna be following you on that.Jay Kogen:Interesting. And then if you follow me on my social medias, you can see my improv shows when I do them. And yep. You can also follow all your followers. Should listen to Charlie Cogan, who's my son, who's a musician and he just released a new record and I want everybody to hear it on for sure. Or Apple Music or Amazon or wherever it is. Charlie Cogan, K O G E N.Michael Jamin:Excellent.Jay Kogen:Jake, Not Jake Ogan. It's Jake Cogan and it's Charlie Cogan. SoMichael Jamin:Yeah. I'm glad you cleared that up by cause I was too embarrassed to ask. And what kind of music does he do?Jay Kogen:It's mostly Zither music. And what is that? It's just pop, Pop Zither is a terrible, strange instrument. No, it's just pop music. It's really great pop music. I don't know if you like, Do you like Ed Sherin? Interesting. Something like that, butMichael Jamin:Not, And so he doesn't wanna go into comedy Ready?Jay Kogen:He might, He's really fun. He might and worked on stuff together. But he's really talented musician and he's sort of honed his skills as a music songwriter, singer, music producer. And those are, he's ready to go on that level. He's not good for him ready to go as a comedy writer yet, but he could. Right. Wow. He's college right now. He's studying, so we don't really his sing, his singles come out intermittently, but he's while he is at college.Michael Jamin:Oh good. Well let's make him happen. Go listen to him on Spotify.Jay Kogen:Charlie Cogan. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Jay, thank you again so much. This is good for me to hear. I dunno if anybody else heard it, butJay Kogen:It was great to hang with you. I'd heard a lot about you and I've seen your videos on the Thes and the weird Instagrams, and that's been amazing. How do you, did you decide to do that stuffMichael Jamin:After we get off the air, but basically I was telling my manager, I had a call him the other day and I was telling him what I was doing. He goes on TikTok, he goes, Oh, I know people forward me your videos, . They go, Have you heard of this guy? I was like, Yeah, my client . But yeah,Jay Kogen:It's interesting and I think it provides a valuable service, but it seems like it would be a little bit of a time suck, but also just there's value on the other side of it.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll talk more about it. But thank you so much. Everyone. Go follow Jake Hogan and his sonJay Kogen:And ask me questions. You can reach me at any of these places and I'll answer your questions for free, just like Michael does. How do you like that? What Michael does that I'm gonna start and I'll agree with him on everything he says.Michael Jamin:, please. I need it. All right. Done Next time. Thank you so much. And oh yeah, Thank you so much.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Tonight,We've got 10% of the US Porsche Classic Technicians with us.  John forgets to look up because he's busy running our new video system.  Check us out on YouTube live.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqMS94X5Vnc RS3, RS6, Heritage Targa.  

The crew is trying out a new camera system, Matt tore his hamstrings, Serina's having a last minute bridal shower, and Nicasio's airpods were stolen!Subscribe for more #TinoCochinoRadioInstagram: @TinoCochinoRadiowww.TinoCochinoRadio.com

Dr. Bill tests the Logitech Mevo Start camera and Multicam system. He demonstrates how to use a video editor to figure out the timing for OBS audio sync. He also compares video from the Sony a6400, the Elgato Facecam, and the Mevo start, in studio. (Mar 03, 2022) Links that pertain to this Netcast: TechPodcasts Network International Association of Internet [...] The post DrBill.TV #505 – Audio – The Test the Mevo Edition! appeared first on Dr. Bill | The Computer Curmudgeon.

Dr. Bill tests the Logitech Mevo Start camera and Multicam system. He demonstrates how to use a video editor to figure out the timing for OBS audio sync. He also compares video from the Sony a6400, the Elgato Facecam, and the Mevo start, in studio. (Mar 03, 2022) Links that pertain to this Netcast: TechPodcasts Network International Association of Internet [...] The post DrBill.TV #505 – Video – The Test the Mevo Edition! appeared first on Dr. Bill | The Computer Curmudgeon.

Go behind the scenes of Joel Osteen's broadcast television ministry as I interview Jon Swearingen, the senior director of Broadcast Media at Lakewood Church. https://philcooke.com Jon shares creative tips on fulfilling the pastor's vision, directing multi-camera events, leading volunteers, and the various camera shots and multi-cam setups that will capture the best moments for your audience.   Please like, rate and share this episode!   Get my new book: Maximize Your Influence – How to Make Digital Media Work for Your Church, Your Ministry, and You https://influencematters.com   Subscribe to My Podcast for more good advice for leaders and creatives: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/phil-cooke-podcast/id1439369056 Prefer video? Subscribe to My YouTube Channel and Get More Great Advice https://www.youtube.com/c/philcookeofficial?sub_confirmation=1 New episodes are uploaded every other Wednesday. Make sure to Subscribe and hit the Notification bell to be notified when they go live.   *Helping leaders navigate their calling and career in today's distracted media-driven culture* Do you have a message or story the world needs to hear? As a Hollywood producer and media consultant, I offer advice for leaders and creatives each week on creative leadership, digital media, branding and marketing strategies, film and TV production – and the faith to take you from where you are to where you want to be in your career. Sign up for my blog and get a free eBook https://www.philcooke.com   Follow me: Twitter https://twitter.com/philcooke Facebook https://www.facebook.com/philcookepage/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/philcooke/ Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/philcookes-podcast/id1439369056  Find out about Cooke Media Group here: https://www.cookemediagroup.com   *More About This Episode* Interview with Jon Swearingen, Sr. Director of Broadcast Media, Lakewood Church Jon Swearingen is Sr. Director of Broadcast Media for Joel Osteen Ministries/Lakewood Church. Since 1999, he has been responsible for all aspects of live and broadcast video production. Jon manages a team of full-time and freelance workers and volunteers that create video content for broadcast, web/on-demand, church services, and social media for the ministry. This content includes long and short-form videos of church services, Bible teachings, stories and much more. Jon worked alongside then media director Joel Osteen for nine years until 1999 when Joel took over as pastor of Lakewood Church.   Follow Jon Swearingen LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-swearingen-b013785/ Watch a service from Lakewood Church here: https://www.lakewoodchurch.com/

Du 26 au 28 octobre 2021 se tenait le Cabsat de Dubaï au DWTC. Salon incontournable du broadcast dans la zone Moyen-Orient, le Cabsat accueillait après 2 ans d'absence le pavillon France. 12 entreprises ont exposé sur le pavillon France dont : Ateme, Broadpeak, Vectracom, Multicam, Winmedia, Fighting Spirit, Vidmizer, France 24, INA, Dalet, Easybroadcast et Sparkup. Au travers de cet épisode, nous vous emmenons en direct de Dubaï avec les témoignages et retours d'expérience de : Stéphane Tésorière, CEO de WinMedia (00:01:08 - 00:04:49) Laurent Breboin, CEO de Vidmizer (00:04:54 - 00:08:10) Célia Letienne, CEO de Vectracom (00:08:07 - 00:10:54) Michael Meiseil, Regional Sales Manager de Dalet (00:11:60 - 00:14:14) Retrouvez ici le catalogue de l'édition 2021. Vous souhaitez rejoindre le pavillon France pour l'édition 2022, contactez Etienne Savin : etienne.savin@businessfrance.fr

Its episode 102 We decided to take the episode this week on the road! Bill and i took our mobile studio AKA the van and decided to go to the Seqouias! accept that didnt work out so instead we drove up to big bear not realizing that most of the national forests in southern California are now closed. Considering almost all the campgrounds in that area are all national forest we had nowhere to stay we decided to go into the middle of the mojave desert where there is no national forest in site. We ended up in a big rock field known to climbers as New Jack City! Why is it called that? we dont know!   We talk about the shroom trip we just came down from, Climbing, star wars, and Bill working on a Multicam show and what the big differences are. We are also visited by a fox halfway through the podcast that for some reason has no fear of us and keeps poping up.   As always we get into the topic of recent releases and rumored movies and tv shows. We tell a few new fail stories.     We are proud members of the Inner Circle Podcast Network. If you like our podcast you will love any podcast in our inner circle family. To check out us or any of the other shows visit innercirclepn.com and subscribe on social media @innercirclepn Check out all of our Inner Families best shows   The Plunge Shit Happens When You Party Naked Simmons and Moore Podcast The Hood Diner The Untrained Eye     Follow us on Instagram: @failinghollywood     Facebook: @failinghollywoodpodcast     Twitter: @failinghollywoo     Email us: failinghollywoodpodcast@gmail.com     And call us with and fail stories or questions or thoughts : (818) 928-5379     If you are listening to us please rate us and review us, any feed back really helps.

Are you a directing a multi-camera television or video event? Steven Lester directed Elevation Church's national television program and livestream services for years, and then launched out on his own. In this interview with Phil Cooke, https://philcooke.com Steven shares his experience as a freelance television and video director and how the important role of a creative director can help churches elevate their media including television broadcasts, in-person services and church online.   Please like, rate and share this video!   Follow Steve Lester on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sjlsynergy/ Visit his website: http://www.sjlester.tv/   Get my new book: Maximize Your Influence – How to Make Digital Media Work for Your Church, Your Ministry, and You https://influencematters.com   Subscribe to My Podcast for more good advice for leaders and creatives: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/phil-cooke-podcast/id1439369056 Prefer video? Subscribe to My YouTube Channel and Get More Great Advice https://www.youtube.com/c/philcookeofficial?sub_confirmation=1 New episodes are uploaded every other Wednesday. Make sure to Subscribe and hit the Notification bell to be notified when they go live.   *Helping leaders navigate their calling and career in today's distracted media-driven culture* Do you have a message or story the world needs to hear? As a Hollywood producer and media consultant, I offer advice for leaders and creatives each week on creative leadership, digital media, branding and marketing strategies, film and TV production – and the faith to take you from where you are to where you want to be in your career.   Follow me: Twitter https://twitter.com/philcooke Facebook https://www.facebook.com/philcookepage/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/philcooke/ Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/philcookes-podcast/id1439369056  Find out about Cooke Media Group here: https://www.cookemediagroup.com   Other Great Resources: Sign up for my blog and get a free eBook at https://www.philcooke.com   *More About This Episode* Interview: Creative Director Steven Lester Talks About Multi Camera Directing Steve Lester is a creative director based in Nashville, Tennessee producing multi-cam events for churches including Elevation Worship, Hillsong Worship, Jesus Culture, and for musical artists including Kari Jobe, Chris Tomlin, Tasha Cobbs and more. Here are some quick takeaways from today's interview:   The biggest problem Steve sees with multi cam directors with a church is that they don't value volunteers enough. He encourages directors to value volunteers and invest in the gift. Steward the people to build a solid team. Create spaces for people to grow and do what they're really good at. He sees the role of a director similar to “customer service” in the way of determining the pastor and ministry's vision and then determining “How can I bring my expertise and my art in to serve you well?” Concerning using dollies and steadicams, etc., Steven says, “Don't let the ‘toys' influence the way your creativity thinks. If it doesn't serve the vision, it's useless… I want the end user to experience God through what I'm showing them.” For pastors who don't have people to run cameras, Steve encourages them to find a 16-year old, find the volunteers who are eager to learn. They may not be good at first, but it's better than just capturing a service with a wide shot. They will get better. He encourages his camera operators to be very aware of what God's doing in the room. Don't just live in your viewfinder; look to your left, look to your right. Have a situational awareness to capture what's happening around you. Steven's prayer as a multi cam director leading a church media team: “Open our eyes to what you're seeing, God, and help us capture it.”

[PLATEAU D'EXPERTS] Le sport et les événements de divertissement ont de plus en plus souvent recours à l'enrichissement graphique pour informer ou divertir.La réalité augmentée dans les stades, sur les plateaux TV ou les studios virtuels apportent une grande valeur ajoutée aux programmes. Il est possible de mêler, mixer, hybrider des contenus réels (décor, présentateur, public) avec des éléments 2D ou 3D, mais aussi de réunir sur un même lieu des personnes distantes… Ces opportunités sont incroyables surtout en ces temps de remise en question des déplacements et des process de production traditionnels.Modératrice : Aurélie Gonin, Réalisatrice – Alpine Medias HouseIntervenants : Arnaud Anchelergue – Directeur Général de multiCAM systems, Eric Cluzeau – Directeur du développement stratégique chez Orange Events, Benoit Dentan – CEO chez XD Motion, Jean-Pierre Fournier – Operations Manager chez Post Logic et Vincent Horlait – Virtual Production Product Prime chez Ross Video Voir Acast.com/privacy pour les informations sur la vie privée et l'opt-out.

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I am joined by someone I've admired for quite some time, Aganz. Aganz (Alex) joins the podcast as we discuss marketing, strategy, branding, photography, firearms, hog hunting, night vision, & more. We also discuss one of his other businesses he is involved with, Multicam Black Gang. Check him out on Instagram: Aganz Grab some of the slaps we discussed at his store! His Website & check out Multicam Black Gang discussed in the podcast! MCBG

Tolis Dokianos is a brand ambassador with Cinamaker. On this episode Tolis gives us tips and recommendations about using multi-camera software on YouTube and other platforms.GUEST: Tolis Dokianos Cinamaker | Apex Video Marketing | YouTube | LinkedInHOSTS: The Video Marketing Value Podcast is hosted by:- Dane Golden of VidiUp.tv and VidTarget.io | LinkedIn | Twitter | YouTube- Gwen Miller of Kin | LinkedIn | Twitter |SPONSORS: This episode is brought to you by our affiliate partners, including: TubeBuddy, VidIQ, MorningFame, Rev.com, and other products and services we recommend.PRODUCER: Jason Perrier of Phizzy StudiosREAD THE TRANSCRIPT