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A thriving business is built on people, not just product. This week on Building Texas Business, I spoke with Lynne Doherty and Clarissa O'Connell of Sonar, a developer-first software company founded in Geneva and growing fast in Austin, Texas. Lynne leads their go-to-market team, and Clarissa heads up people and culture: together, they're shaping Sonar's growth story in the U.S. We discuss Sonar's journey from its open-source roots to serving over 28,000 organizations. Lynne shares how Austin's tech ecosystem and talent pool have been key to expanding their operations, including the rollout of their latest product, SonarQube Advanced Security, an integrated solution that combines code quality with security. Clarissa highlights the cultural strategies that keep Sonar's fast-scaling team engaged and committed, including an acronym-based value system (CODE) and a balanced hybrid work model. Over the conversation, we see how Sonar's approach to innovation and people has evolved. From whiteboarding solutions on-site to building confidence in AI-generated code, their focus is on helping developers build better, faster, while maintaining a human connection. What stood out to me most was how Clarissa and Lynne use leadership not just to grow a company, but to create a space where culture and innovation reinforce each other. It's a reminder that whether you're writing code or growing a team, trust and clarity go a long way. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I explore the transformative journey of Sonar, from its developer-focused beginnings in Geneva to its dynamic growth in Austin, Texas, a key hub in the U.S. tech scene. Lynne Doherty and Clarissa O'Connell share insights into how Austin's vibrant tech ecosystem and business-friendly environment have accelerated Sonar's expansion and shaped its innovative culture. We delve into SonarQube Advanced Security, a new integrated solution enhancing application security by addressing threats during development, demonstrating Sonar's commitment to code quality and security. The conversation highlights Sonar's strategic partnerships with Austin universities and robust internship programs aimed at nurturing the next generation of tech innovators. Lynne and Clarissa discuss the significance of creating a positive company culture, underscored by their CODE acronym, and how it fosters a collaborative and inclusive environment at Sonar. We address the challenges of rapid technological change and the importance of continuous team enablement and customer education to adapt and thrive in a fast-evolving industry. Through personal insights, Lynne and Clarissa emphasize the importance of work-life integration, adaptability, and maintaining well-being amidst the demands of leadership and a growing company. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Sonar GUESTS Clarissa O'ConnellAbout Clarissa Lynne DohertyAbout Lynne TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) INTRO Welcome to the Building Texas Business Podcast. Interviews with thought leaders and organizational visionaries from across industry. Join us as we talk about the latest trends, challenges and growth opportunities to take your business to the next level. The Building Texas Business Podcast is brought to you by Boyer Miller, providing counsel beyond expectations. Find out how we can make a meaningful difference to your business at BoyerMillercom and by your podcast team, where having your own podcast is as easy as being a guest on ours. Discover more at yourpodcastteam Now. Here's your host, chris Hanslick. Chris: In this episode, you will meet Lynne Daugherty and Clarissa O'Connell of Sonar. Both Lynne and Clarissa share how being based in Austin, texas, has helped accelerate their company's growth and influenced its culture. I'm going to say hello to Lynne and Clarissa from Sonar. Thanks for joining me on Building Texas Business. Lynne: Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. Chris: So I'm going to just have a fun free-flowing conversation, but I do want to start with each of you telling us about yourself, but also about Sonar. What does the company do? What is it known for? Clarissa: Great. Lynne: Yeah, I'll start. My name is Lynne Doherty and I lead our go-to-market team here at Sonar, which, if you think about that, is almost everything that directly touches a customer it's sales, it's support, it's engineering, it's our customer success organizations, our demand marketing organizations, and so I've been here at Sonar a little over a year now and it's been a great and wild ride. To give you a little background on who Sonar is, so we're a company founded in Geneva in 2008. And since the beginning, we have been an organization focused on developers, a developer-first company. We came to Austin in 2018. It was our first US office is in Austin and since then we've continued to build out the team in Austin, including our CEO Clarissa, our head of HR, our new general counsel, our new CFO all sit out of Austin. So Austin is is our second biggest office outside of Geneva, where we were founded. What we do is we focus on developers and it's around reaching the market of developers. We have 7 million developers that use our products. We have 28,000 organizations that use us today, and it's all around. How do we make developers more effective, more productive? We call it building better, faster, and that's what we're focused on is how do we do that Giving developers actionable intelligence so that they can build better faster. That that's what we're focused on is how do we do that giving developers actionable intelligence so that they can build better faster. Chris: That's right. So is it kind of an open source type concept then? Lynne: We start in open source. That was our roots is we have an open source product and then we have what we do at Sonar is sell the enterprise version of that product, the product that's the commercial version, when you need more features and grow and scale. We developed a product that people can use when they sort of graduate from open source. Chris: Great Well Lynne I appreciate that so. Clarissa, let's hear a little more about you, and then your background and a little bit in the role you play at Sonar. Clarissa: Yeah, absolutely so. My name is Clarissa O'Connell and I am the chief people officer here and, as you heard from Lynne, she manages the business and I'm in the lucky position that I get to manage the people that help drive all of those activities. So I'm really excited that we're in Austin, texas. As you know, it's a really thriving city, specifically for tech and for things like AI, so it's a perfect place for us to be located. We have almost 200 people here in this Austin office. We are growing this office every single day, with offers coming out on a regular basis, and I am in the really lucky position that I get to help drive the initiatives that help Lynne establish the protocols and sell the business for our customers. So I get to focus on things like making sure that we're one of the top employers in Austin, the rewarding packages for our employees, so that we can take the time to find really qualified individuals and then keep them here, and then all of the things that surround that, like culture, learning, development, career advancement and training. We also partner with all of the major research universities in the region to be able to develop things like internship programs and make sure that we're really socializing what it is that we do within the developer community and kind of embracing this really fast moving startup culture that Austin is really known for, and all of those things put together are making us who we are and the employees here are fantastic. Austin is amazing and some of our smartest talent is coming from the Texas region, so really happy to be here to talk to you about businesses in Texas. Chris: Yeah, Well, I'm not biased but I'm not surprised you're finding Texas and the workforce. I think it's important. It's one thing to have business friendly policies in place, which Texas certainly does, but you've got to match that with talent or the companies aren't going to come and some of it may be a chicken or egg kind of thing, right, because we do see, and I'm sure y'all are experiencing migration of people to Texas because that's where the companies are establishing themselves, like you have, and then trying to build from there. So you know, kind of to that lens, what are some of the emerging technologies or the trends that you see shaping kind of Texas business and, specifically in the Austin area, what are some of the trends that you're seeing emerging that are helping you with this growth? Lynne: Why don't I start? And, Clarissa, you can add in if you have anything. But I'd say the biggest trend that we're facing as a technology company and a software company for developers is, every day the news around AI is coming out and changing and evolving incredibly quickly, and you know, for us, we really believe that the core of software development whether that's designing program, validating the code that's developed, it's going to be enhanced by AI, and what that means is people, our customers, their roles as developers is going to evolve. We don't believe any of those roles disappear, but we believe they change, and so it's a big trend that's out there, that we see and our customers are faced with every day. It is something that we take into consideration as we evolve our business strategy, as we think about how we talk to our customers and how we help them solve the problems that they are facing today, and it's one of the benefits of being in Austin is that it enables us to attract talent to help solve these problems as we develop our products. Chris: Yeah, I think, just to step in. I think what's important in there is the idea that AI doesn't replace jobs. It may change and enhance, because isn't that what technology has always done right? As things have evolved, people have always adapted to. The computer hasn't replaced them, even though, with AI, I think there was that big fear, that myth that you need to debunk, right. Lynne: Yeah, no, you're exactly right. I mean, think of all of the different innovations across time that are going to displace people and people aren't going to have jobs, and it ultimately means new jobs and growth, and it's just different kinds of jobs with different skills. Chris: Yeah, so of course, how has being in Austin helped position the company for the success that you're seeing? Clarissa: Yeah, and that's exactly why we're in Austin right. We're in this fortunate position where, as a global company, the Central Time Zone location is really perfect for us and we've got a really amazing strong pool of skilled workers that are coming to Austin, Texas, from all over the world because it is this emerging tech-friendly environment that people are embracing and Austin is a pretty attractive city to live in. You know, we've got really great weather, we've got really fantastic resources, we've got an infrastructure that supports all of these global individuals from across the world, and we're finding new ways to give back to the community, which is also helping us draw really solid candidates, whether that's through you know, sonar Serves is what we call it, but it's when we take our amazing environment of individuals and we give back to our local communities, and so that helps us really retain and attract really strong talent, and all of those things equal us now out of office space, and so we're actually today moving to more space in the building that we're in so that we can continue to be an emerging talent where we can focus on hiring, bringing in those key people, expanding into those new technologies and bringing in those skill sets and diversifying the Austin region and the company itself. Chris: Well, that's really good to hear because in this environment you hear more about companies shrinking office space, not growing. So I'm sure the office market there in Austin appreciates that. So just while we're on that topic, how are you managing with like kind of work remote policies while you expand and take on more office space? Do you see your people coming in more over the last, say, year or so than before? Clarissa: Yeah, we're really lucky that our work environment here is extremely collaborative and, because of the work that we do, oftentimes we do our best work all sitting in one room and whiteboarding things out and solving the problems as they come up. That's really. Our workforce has embraced that opportunity to be able to interact with each other face-to-face. You know, as an HR person, I think it's a combination of people love working remote, but they also kind of miss that interaction, and so currently our workforce comes in every Monday, tuesday and Thursday and then on Wednesdays and Fridays. We make those days optionals for our employee. They can come in if they want to interact. They also choose not to come in. They have the ability to work from home. But, believe it or not, we have about 60% of our workforce that still comes in on Wednesdays and Fridays because that interaction has now become a thing. We're in this fortunate position, being a global company, that we work really hard, but we also have this European culture where it's common for us to embrace that work-life balance, and so it's common for us to do coffee chat meetings. We have the luxurious European coffee machine in the kitchen, so it's dragging people into the office where they're able to talk about those emerging technologies, how to continually improve and increase the company and really embrace our culture. So the one thing I think I'm really proud of is that people work really hard, they're incredibly talented, so they're driving the product to the next level and they're embracing this interaction of culture, and so all of those things together are making it a pretty incredible place to work. Chris: That's great. So, Lynne, let's talk a little bit about innovation. What are some of the things that you feel like Sonar's done in the last several years to really you know? I know your technology company so you probably said, look, that's in our DNA. But what are you doing to really be, or do you think is innovative, for maybe your industry that has, you know, kind of helped position the company to where it is today? Lynne: Yeah, you're absolutely right, chris. I mean, I think it is in our DNA, it's part of what we do, and developers are always at the forefront of technology, and so our customers challenge us to be better every day, because they want to be better. They need to be better and because we're in this changing landscape. So a few things we've innovated on, and we're fortunate because our solution is a fit for really all industries, all types of organizations, all sizes, and so we're focused on a few things that we've done recently, which is really interesting. We have just put out something called SonarQube Advanced Security, and so, if you think about what that is, it's helping developers make their applications more secure, and security is a threat. Everybody in all walks of life, all organizations, faces this threat of cybersecurity issues that can get embedded in code, and so we support developers in not just helping them build faster, better quality applications, but now we've just put out something that enables them to do both code quality and security. It's the first integrated solution to do that, so there are a lot of people that do either one or the other. We're the first bringing that together into one integrated solution for a developer to use, that together into one integrated solution for a developer to use. So security is something that is a big innovation for us that we've just come out with. I'd also add the AI features that we have. How do you get assurance on your AI code? So a developer's creating AI code, it's automated, but you still want to make sure that code has good quality, good security, good maintainability, and so with our product that's a new innovation that we have is to how to make sure that all of that AI generated code you have the same kind of confidence in that you do human written code. Chris: Good stuff. I mean security. You're right. It becomes increasingly more of an issue because more and more things in the cloud all of our information and of course we know there's a whole world of professional hackers out there just trying to get in. So I think it has a lot of people concerned and trusting, whether that trust is well-placed or not. But I think to your point of focus on security, you can't emphasize that enough. Lynne: Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, it's a huge issue and huge concern and we really believe if you start with the developers as the application gets developed and build security in, you get a better outcome than you build an application and try to layer all of the protection on top of it. So it's really about building security and at the development stage from the ground up, and we believe that's a really important trend that we should be a part of. Chris: So, Clarissa, what are some of the kind of investments, if you will, that Sonar is making in Austin to kind of help support your growth strategy? And how do you see, how has that been playing out for you? Clarissa: Yeah, that's a great question. So Austin, as a thriving tech city, has this really entrepreneurial spirit where we've got these incredible talents from all over the globe that have come here. They really want to stay close to innovation and attract kind of that top talent for us, and our product allows us to do that, not only because of its name recognition but because of the impact that it has for developers worldwide, I think being able to grow our businesses in Austin is key for us. We've already mentioned that we're out of office space and so we're having to grow into that region, but we've expanded our footprint within the market way more than just increasing our office space. We've got internship programs where we're partnering with some of our incredible universities to bring in those individuals who want to get into the footprint of technology and because oftentimes they're already aware of our product, it's a really good opportunity for them to partner with some of the best minds in the business that are working on our product, both driving the product and driving the technology, and so we have really robust internship programs where we give them exposure into what we do and then those eventually lead to full-time jobs and we have the opportunity to put those interns into multiple markets because we are spread across the globe and so we're really proud of exposing those individuals and it helps us to hire those right people. From the very beginning, we are working really hard to be a standout or a world-class choice for employees and so because of that, we leverage a lot of our hires based on referrals, whether those are from customers or from internal employees, and we really focus on providing that experience for individuals that they're proud to work here, and doing that in a way that gives them a work-life balance but also a rewarding package so that their impact that they have in driving our product forward is rewarded for them on the back end through multiple things, whether it's activities giving back to our community, really amazing benefits packages to be able to support them when they're not at work, to learning and development opportunities so they can continue to grow in their career, so that we're bringing them in as a world-class employee, and then we're giving them the tools and resources to even be better than what they ever could have been, and all of those things coupled together are helping us get that top talent in that Texas market to be able to work for our company. Chris: So of course, you've talked a lot about it, but I want to dig a little deeper about culture. Clarissa: One of my favorite topics. Chris: So how would you describe the culture at Sonar? Clarissa: Yeah, that's a great question and one of the favorite things. We could talk about this for the entire time. But we use an acronym to divide, to talk about our culture, and it's actually CODE and it stands for committed, obsessed, deliberate, and then, based on what team you're on, it could mean efficient or it could mean effective. The committed is being committed to what it is that we do as a company for our customers and our clients, but it's also that we're really committed to each other. Everyone at Sonar has a voice and all those voices are heard and we're really good at a collaborative work environment where we talk about things in joint sessions and we have nuances to that that I'm really happy for. We do this thing called called chickening, and what it basically means is anybody in the company at any time can sit it on generally any meeting so that they really understand that collaboration between teams and departments. So if you're on the product team, you can sit in on marketing so that you understand what that's about. If you are on a, an IT team, you can sit in with products, you can understand the roadmap, and so it's really helping our employees understand what we do as a company so that everybody is moving in the same direction. Our obsessed really is closely tied to committed obsessed about what we do, obsessed about who we are and obsessed about the impact that we make, both internally and externally to our clients. Chris: I love that word, by the way. Clarissa: Me too. Chris: I mean it's impactful right. Clarissa: It's really great. We have pictures throughout the office that are code and it's this big, bright acronym that's posted everywhere, so it's really in front of everybody and we talk about it all the time. For deliberate we really do make deliberate choices. We listen to our customers, we listen to our employees and we navigate throughout our company decisions based on a lot of that feedback. We've got incredible moderators that are out there listening to the voice of what our customers are, and they're sharing that information on a regular basis. We're constantly iterating on how we do things so that we can do it better every time that we tackle the project again. And then the, of course, efficient, effective, right Based on the team that you're on. We try and do things in the best interest of the company and we also really embrace this culture that it's okay to ask questions and it's okay to make mistakes, as long as we recognize what those are and we get back up and we try again, and all of those things combined really drive a culture here that is extremely positive. As a global workforce, it helps establish the criteria and expectations that we have across the company, but it also drives those relationships so that everybody understands where we're going and what we're trying to do, and everybody is all in and doing it together. We do regular all hands where we talk about everything transparently, including. What most companies don't do is we take live Q&A at the end and we answer them in real time. So transparency is really important for us. We want our employees to understand that they're here and that their voice matters and to reward that. Every year we also have this really amazing incentive that we have called the Company Growth Incentive, and so we establish milestones in the beginning of the year and every employee at Sonar is rewarded for their actions and activities by a growth incentive or an award bonus at the end of the year, and it's the same amount regardless of what role that you're in, because everybody here matters for what we're doing every day and everybody gets to kind of celebrate in the rewards of those achievements through the company. So we do our best to make sure that our people know that we wouldn't be here without the people that are driving the business and we hope that reflects when we talk to our customers and it clearly is reflected in the business. I mean we hired 231 people last year and that's amazing considering all the trends across the globe, where the companies were downsizing and collapsing, and Sonar was really great at making sure that we did exactly opposite. And it's only May 28th. We've already sent out 158 offers just this year, so we're on track to double that number, which just shows that we're doing something right here and that we're really happy with what we're doing. Chris: It's amazing, it really is. Kudos to you and yeah, I love it. I mean culture. You can have stuff on the wall and you can have your sayings, but unless it's really ingrained into the organization, it doesn't matter how colorful the signs are or whatnot, but I do like the connection to code and what you do. So let me ask you Lynne Clarissa shared that one of those values about deliberate is listening to customers, and that's where you sit right. ADVERT Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom and thanks for listening to the show. Chris: You're on the front edge of that. What are you and your team doing? I guess in two ways one, to listen to the customers, but also to stand out and be able to communicate. You know the why sonar over your competition. Lynne: Yeah, it's a really good question because software development is changing, with AI as a tool, as a practice, as it's pervasive in everything, and we really fundamentally believe that this is a partnership between AI and humans. This is not an either or this is not a one wins and the other loses. It's how do we have that partnership? And I think our customers are in a sort of trial and error phase right now that we are trying to listen to and be there as a partner for them, and how do we help facilitate this for them instead of, you know, be silent in this? How do we facilitate them using AI and using AI effectively, and that's really important for us. So we do spend a lot of time listening to customers. I would say, you know, there's a lot of noise, and I think that's something that we try to be a voice to our customers on is what's the signal, what's the noise, so to speak, on AI, because it's hard to open anything in tech today and not see a dozen or more articles about AI and what's new, and it is rapidly changing, and so I think for us to be a voice, to have a perspective on that and to help them with a solution, a here and now solution that they can use today, as opposed to things that are maybe today. You know ideas and concepts, but they're more vaporware. We're giving real solutions in the world today to help them solve and do AI, but do it better. Chris: Good. So you know, Lynne, what you know there's always good times and bad times in business. What are some of the headwinds that you kind of see that you're dealing with as you're trying to? You know, deal with customers, grow the business, whether that's unique to Texas or just general in your industry. Lynne: Yeah, I think that one of the things that is a challenge today is this need to do constant enablement of our team and education and conversations with customers about changes that we're seeing. I remember and I've been doing technology with customers for a long time and there were times where you'd sort of have a product or a trend or some innovation and it would be months and years that you talk about the same thing, and now I feel like it's weeks or days, or sometimes even minutes, that things change, and so I think that's a real challenge for our customers to stay up on, to stay educated on, but also for our teams that need to be experts on this, and so it's a real challenge, as Clarissa talked about, how many people we've hired is how do we bring them in and educate them on what we do today? But also, what we do today changes tomorrow and changes the next day and changes the next day, and so I think that's a challenge for all of us in technology today is that the sort of lifespan of technology has gotten so much shorter, and so our focus on educating our own employees but doing that in partnership with customers is a constant uphill battle. Chris: Makes sense. Clarissa, what about you from the kind of the HR perspective? What are some of the headwinds and challenges that you're facing as you're trying to help? You know you're really trying to feed the machine with people and talent so that they can continue to drive the business, but what are some of the challenges with finding those people and integrating those people? Clarissa: Yeah, that's a great question and a real problem sometimes, right, because we're not the only company in Texas that realizes how great it is to be in Texas, and because of that, oftentimes we're up against really large organizations that have now made Texas their home and they have compelling stories. And we have compelling stories, and some of those are larger, really well-known companies, and so it's a constant battle to find really great talent. I feel like we have a really good position in the market to be able to find those individuals and we have a great reputation, which is very helpful. But when you're talking to a candidate who has other really amazing Texas companies that they're also speaking to, it is kind of a little bit like a talent war, and because we're growing so quickly, we are trying to constantly hire these individuals, and so the pipeline really never ends for us, meaning we close one requisition and right behind it we're opening it up, so we think we found the best person, and then all of a sudden we're restarting the cycle and every employee that we're hiring here is fantastic, right? We say that we're constantly raising the bar, and so the expectations are changing, which that we're hiring here is fantastic, right, we say that we're constantly raising the bar, and so the expectations are changing, which means we're constantly evaluating that we are a world-class employer with the best offerings, and so the cycle never ends. But we've been really fortunate to be able to have people want to work with us because they understand what we're doing, and you know we celebrate every time somebody says yes, regardless of their role, because every person that's here is important to us and helping to drive what it is that we're doing. Chris: So I'm going to give you a tough question because one of the things I talked to a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of business owners hiring is such an important decision and such a challenging thing to do. No one's perfect right. We don't always get it right. So I'm going to ask you, when you realize that it's not working out, maybe just advice, one or two things that you would recommend to people when you're facing that decision of you realize this hire is not working out, it's time to move on. Any tips that you've learned over the years you know doing HR that you know, even though it's hard, it's hard to do when you're affecting people's life any tips on? Clarissa: Yeah, that's the worst part of my career, to be honest with you is you know you want everybody to be successful, just like you want your company to be successful. I really my piece of advice would be to really try and do everything you can on the front end to make sure that the person that you're bringing in understands not only the expectations but what the environment is going to be. And, like Lynne said, enablement is really important, and that goes for customers, but it also goes for your employees, and so, kind of trying to be ahead of that conversation before it ever starts it's not always possible but give them the resources that they need. At Sonar, we assign individuals both a point of contact and a mentor and we also put them through an extremely robust training program. We try and check all of those boxes when they're hired to make sure that it doesn't get to that point. But if in fact, the job isn't right for somebody and jobs aren't always right for people and it's a really hard decision we do try and give individuals that attention that they need to be able to help them be on track, whether that's additional one-on-one training or pulling them aside to re-establish kind of the connection between what they're doing and what we need them to do, but sometimes it doesn't, unfortunately, work out for people. The one thing that Sonar does really well is we do everything in our power to treat people with the outmost kindness. We have really built-in contractual exit periods because we firmly believe that individuals in Texas need that off-ramp period in order to secure their next dream job, even if, unfortunately, it's not with Sonar, and we do everything we can to set them up for success. When people need to depart the company, we give them reference letters so that they have the opportunity to leverage that and we make ourselves widely available to help them secure their next job. And then we do exit interviews so that we can collect that feedback so we can hopefully stop that cycle. Our attrition rates here are really low, so we are very fortunate. But in the unlikely event that they need to leave, we leave on really good terms. I mean, we hire people because they're brilliant but we keep them because they become part of who we are in the fabric of Sonar and every exit that we have is painful for us. But we really do everything we can to make sure that person's set up for success, and sometimes that's leveraging our extensive networks and sometimes it's putting people into partnerships with other companies where they may be a better fit, because it is a small technology state, right Like a lot of us communicate on a regular basis through agencies and entities, and so the referral network is really strong and we do everything we can to make sure that those people are set up for success, even if it's not with Sonar. Chris: Well, thank you, thanks for sharing Great advice. It looks like it's very well thought out on the front and back end, which I think is what's most important right being thoughtful and, to your core value, deliberate about it. So, Lynne, I want to ask you a little bit about leadership. I'd like for you to share kind of how you see your leadership style and how do you think that's kind of evolved or adapted as this role in Sonar has grown and your team has grown. Lynne: I think my leadership style has changed a lot over the years. I mean, I think earlier in my career it was more about how do I get the next step, how do I do something. And I think, as I've gotten bigger roles, I realized it's not about me. It's about what I can do for other people, and so I very much think my leadership style is how do I make people better, how do I leave the company, the organization, the individuals in a better place? Because I was a part of it and play a role in people's careers. That goes long beyond any given quarter or year in a go-to-market leadership position. I always think about the fact that nobody remembers in 2018, I did the best quarter ever but people remember the person who gave them a chance, the person who supported them when they didn't have confidence, and I think through my career, I've seen that even more and gotten more realization. That's really what leadership is about. It's it, you know, fundamentally I need to deliver the business for this company, so we're successful and everybody can have jobs. But you know, for me as a leader, it's more about the individuals that I get to impact through the job. Chris: Very nice, clarissa, how about you? And you've been in this role for some time, but how do you see your leadership style, how do you think it's evolved and changed and you know, kind of share that journey with us. Clarissa: Yeah, absolutely. I mean HR in general has completely changed since I've been doing this in my career. You know it started where we would almost be considered policemen and enforcing the rules and it's really morphed into more of a consultant type of environment, right? So I've found that establishing familiarity with the employees and a really strong partnership with our managers and leaders within the company. I mean, our executive team really thinks exactly like Lynne said, right, we are here to make sure that the individuals who work for us and under us are better than us and I firmly believe that making sure that the people who are driving the business feel heard and that we offer them the transparency that they need and we openly talk about how to be successful here, because, I mean, to be honest, I'm not going to be in this role forever. You know, eventually I want to go. You know, live in the Texas Hill country and my best life. I need to make sure that the individuals who report to me and work under me are able to step in to not only the expectations for how to be a good HR representative for a company, but also to understand what that means and what attributes you need. I think that for me, I have a strong moral compass and leveraging that moral compass through transparency and collaboration and guidance, I try and impart that into every employee. I really think it's important and I've learned through my leadership growth period is to really taking the time to listen and hear what the employees are saying and responding back to them in a way that I would expect, when I was at their career stage, to be responded to, and that's one thing that Sonar's really good at is making sure that everybody understands that their voice is important and taking the time to be able to not only answer things like live questions on an all hands, but to openly and transparently talk about the good and the bad, the growth and the learning, and the successes and the failures. Chris: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about how you integrate and, Lynne, I'll start with you how do you integrate this professional life that is demanding, with your personal interests and making sure there's some time for you and family and friends and whatnot? I use the word integration, not balance, because I don't think there's. I think it's a better use of what you do from my perspective, what you do to make it work. Lynne: I totally agree with integration. I totally agree with integration. I think I have never found balance, but I have found integration and so I think a lot of it is having for me. So I'll first start by saying I'm not maybe the best at any concept of balance, but I do think it's important to have priorities, like for me, exercise is a priority. I think I can't be good at what I do here every day if I'm not fit and healthy and strong and here for the marathon, not just the sprint, and so I try to think of that integration as it's a marathon, not a sprint, and so I have some things that are sort of non-negotiable priorities and that doesn't mean every day, every week, every quarter is equal, but I think it is really important to have the things that are very important to you. The other thing that maybe it's less advice about the integration or balance. It's more about recognizing that working is about having different chapters of the book, and there's probably chapters where I'm way more balanced, so to speak, in work and way more balanced in life and viewing things as it's not forever, it's one chapter, and that I think when you're feeling guilty about the things that you miss or the things that you didn't get to, having this view that I'm just in this chapter and that chapter isn't the whole book. So maybe that's my advice, for how do I not feel guilty when I'm not doing something or doing something as well as I think I ought to be? Chris: Great perspective. Thank you, clarissa. Clarissa: Lynne is also leaving off that. She takes fitness to a new level when she comes to Austin. She rallies the troops here and they all go to a cycling class to not only get out their spent up energy but to also like reward and push through and hit other milestones. So she successfully convinced me to go, but that's something she does every time she's in Austin with the team. I also agree I do not have balance myself. I have more than I did earlier in my career where I was trying to figure out what it means to be a leader for an organization. My role is a little bit different than everyone else's because people have needs and you never know when those needs are going to occur. I deal with the employee and not necessarily the product, and so you know. Sometimes there may be an emergency that occurs on a weekend, or somebody may need a clarification on something, or people just might need help, and I need to be there when those individuals need to be there. I've established a really good cadence and balance for offsetting. You know, if I need to be there for an employee on a Saturday at 11 pm, to being able to balance that with something during the week I'm a big fan of even though our employees work really hard grabbing people and dragging them out for coffee just to not only reset my own self but to be able to help them reset, and pulling people into different environments and cultures, and acknowledging to people that I know that I don't have really solid balance and that don't do what I do, what you need to do, and giving them the tools to be able to do that. It does help. Lynne and I both are lucky to be able to travel to multiple offices, so we have forced downtime sometimes when we're on airplanes and so we do have those reset periods, but we're able to hit the ground running when we start again and each market's different, so we try and do the best that we can. I try and do the best that I can. Sometimes I'm great at it and sometimes I'm not great at it. Chris: Well, I think that's all you can do and I think the biggest thing is knowing that you're not always going to get it right. Yeah, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, and maybe you know, so does the rest of the world and just knowing that it's going to be okay, your intentions matter a lot, and so you know that. So, look, I really appreciate the two of you sharing not just a sonar story but a little bit of your own. You are on a Texas podcast, so I do like to end this way. I'm gonna start with Clarissa. I give Lynne a little bit of time. I know Lynne just travels to and from Texas. But, Clarissa, do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Clarissa: Definitely barbecue. Chris: Okay, no hesitation I love it. Lynne: Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent barbecue. Chris: Love it. Y'all agree on that. Clarissa: I'm going to book us a lunch, Lynne. Chris: Favorite barbecue place in Austin. Lynne: Franklin's. Chris: There you go, there you go. She reads the press clippings, all right. Well, ladies, look. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the podcast. Congratulations for all the success you're having with Sonar Love, that the company chose Austin and Texas to put their stake in the ground and just pleased to see it going so well. Clarissa: Yeah, us too. Thank you for having us. Yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you so much. Chris: Okay, McKenzie, cut it there. Great job, ladies. Come on, Katie Great conversation. Lynnee: Love to listen in you made it nice and easy, chris. Thank you, yeah, no, you're welcome. Clarissa: If you decide to leave Houston and head up to Austin, please call us Lynne, and I'll take you to barbecue. Chris: Deal and spinning class. Lynne: And spinning class. What are you? Chris: like what's that? Lynne: Tex-Mex or barbecue. Chris: Oh see, it's hard because I'm born and raised here. So I usually say I mean if it's like when I'm gone, the way I have to gauge, that is, if I'm out of town in a different state for a period of time. When I come back, what's the first thing I really want? And the truth is it'd be Tex-Mex. Yeah, blending it right, so you have brisket tacos and things. So there's right down the street from our office we have a barbecue place called the pit room and they own a tex-mex next door and they use the barbecue so you can get like brisket nachos and brisket tacos yeah, it is delicious well maybe we'll come visit you, because that sounds lovely. If you're ever in houston holler at me. But yes, I was like with Lynne. I'm a I'm kind of a fitness freak, so spinning and pilates and okay, okay, but I'm like you, I have to and I have to do in the morning where it doesn't happen. But if I'm not taking care of myself, I don't have. It takes a lot of energy to do what we do. Clarissa: Yeah, I feel like you're not I'm the local pilates girl, so she can take you to spin and I'll do pilates with you, and then we'll all go former I do, reformer I do reformer. Yep, yep, it's a lot harder than it looks, but it's 55 minutes in and out and then you're done harder than yeah, you're right, those machines make it look easy. Chris: It is nothing. It is not anything close to easy not at all, but yeah, so we're good, but seriously love to stay in touch. So yeah, if I'm in Austin I'll give you a ring, and please do if you're headed this way. Clarissa: Yeah, we'd love that. We're right downtown so we'd love to host you. So you let us know when you're in this area and we'll let you know when we're in yours. Chris: Thank, you All right, sounds good. OUTRO And there we have it. Don't forget to check out the show notes at boyermillercom forward slash podcast and you can find out more about all the ways our firm can help you at boyermiller.com. That's it for this episode. Have a great week and we'll talk to you next time. Special Guests: Clarissa O'Connell and Lynne Doherty.

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I speak with Brian Birdy, the CEO of PMI Birdy Properties and a regional developer for Dill Dinkers. Brian shares insights about managing his family business, which his father started in 1979. He discusses the complexities of succession planning and how involving family members can strengthen the business for future generations. Brian's latest venture, an indoor pickleball facility, highlights his ability to identify emerging trends and foster a unique business culture. We explore effective strategies for business growth as Brian emphasizes the importance of a solid foundation. He talks about the need for a strong team, comprehensive training, and well-documented processes to navigate unexpected challenges. Additionally, we discuss the hiring landscape post-COVID, where Brian advocates for a proactive approach to recruitment and the importance of adapting to new employment trends. As we move into the topic of franchising, Brian shares his experiences with Dill Dinkers and the potential of using repurposed industrial spaces for pickleball courts. He reflects on the benefits and challenges of setting up a franchise in this fast-growing market. His connection to San Antonio adds a personal touch, as he expresses his passion for the local community and its cultural vibrancy. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I discussed with Brian Birdy, CEO of PMI Birdy Properties, about managing a family business founded by his father in 1979 and his strategies for succession planning and family involvement. Brian shared insights on the importance of building a resilient business foundation through strategic planning, comprehensive training, and process documentation, emphasizing adaptability to technological advancements. We explored the post-COVID hiring landscape, where Brian highlighted the significance of a proactive hiring approach, prioritizing candidates with a positive attitude and aligning with changing employment trends. The conversation delved into the burgeoning pickleball market, with Brian expressing enthusiasm for his new venture in opening an indoor pickleball facility and the potential of franchising with Dill Dinkers. Brian revealed the challenges and opportunities in the residential property management industry, particularly in differentiating oneself in a competitive market and adapting to shifts in housing demand. We examined the process of opening a pickleball franchise, discussing the benefits of franchising for newcomers, the importance of choosing the right franchise, and the potential for repurposing industrial spaces for pickleball courts. Brian emphasized the value of surrounding oneself with capable people, investing in staff, and being open to new ideas and changes to drive business success, while reflecting on his connection to San Antonio and the local community. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About PMI Birdy Properties GUESTS Brian BirdyAbout Brian TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: Brian, welcome to Building Texas Business. Thanks for taking the time to come on the podcast hey thanks for having me. So you know, let's dive right in and talk about some of the things that you're doing as an entrepreneur and business owner and just introduce your companies to the audience. Brian: Sure. So I'm the broker and owner of Birdie Properties, which is a real estate company that specializes in residential property management. It has been in business for over 46 years. My dad actually started that business back in 1979. I've been running it and working at it and eventually running it since about 97 and have grown it to one of the largest residential property managers in South Texas, learned a lot of lessons in growing that business and the newest adventure is Dilldinker's Indoor Pickleball, which I'm sitting in, and I'm very excited that we will be opening our first location here in about a week and a half. Chris: Well, that's great. So two full-time jobs, it sounds like. Brian: Yeah, Well, the other one's a family-owned legacy business. It's three generations deep. Like I said, my dad started it. My brother and I both worked in it. I've owned it and run it for 20, 28 years and currently all of my three adult children and my daughter-in-law all work there and do the heavy lifting. With a little bit of guidance from me, that gave me the ability that could run effectively without my daily requirement, gave me the ability to actually continue that entrepreneurial spirit and try something completely different, which is indoor pickleball. I saw a true need in my city for this. There wasn't anybody delivering it. I saw it as an up and growing and when I actually started on it, less people knew what pickleball was. In the last 18 months it has really come to the forefront and so I got on. I started riding the wave at the right time and I hope it just keeps rolling, yeah well, it's certainly taken the last couple of years. Chris: It's taken on like a life of its own, it seems like. So let's go back to, I guess, Birdy Properties and maybe the unique part of what it's like in a family business to do the succession from your dad, who was the founder, to you and your brother then taking over that business. What were some of the maybe the pain points and lessons learned about doing that and what maybe advice you might give to someone that's in the process or thinking about it, of what to do or not do? Brian: Yeah, running a family business it's wonderful and it's tough, both hand in hand. The wonderful part about it is their name is on that business. Their future is tied into that business. Their commitment generally if they really care about it is they're a lot more committed than just an individual employee. But at the same time it's problematic in that you can't separate yourself from business. Family meals are filled with business. Taking an entire family vacation becomes almost an impossibility. And then succession is an issue. I bought the business from my father and it was clearly me. I own it. So my brother continued to work there but was not in ownership of it. That has its own problems. We found a way for him to actually build a business out of this and he's actually gone out on his own, is specializing in short-term management and is running his own business now, and so that was a way to kind of figure out how that could work. So he is the owner, sole owner, of Birdy Vacation Rentals. But I've got three kids that work for me. Each of them have unique qualities. They own all own a very important part of the business and they really can't survive without them working together, which works great now, but it's going to be. I'm going to wonder, I keep wondering and trying to figure out how, what is the best way to pass this on? And I don't have the right answer for it, but continuing to work at it, you know, giving them all individual pieces that they could own and be the masters of, and then by doing that, everyone needs each other kind of helps with that whole process. You can't no one of them can survive without the others. Chris: Well, it seems, if that's the case, right then you've set it up well for success because that fosters that team environment and team mentality. And you know we love talking about culture. So obviously you have the unique relationship with your children. How have you tried to take that beyond the family relationship with the other employees so that they feel the same engagement with the organization and tied to the organization's success? Brian: So we've gone through lots of that and growing and basically anybody who works for us can see that. I mean their last name isn't Birdy, they're not in the succession plan but we treat everyone within our business as if it was a big family. We believe in family. We believe in quality time. Individuals who work for us recognize we want them to do a great job for us but when they need time, when they need something they know they can ask for it, they can get it and just building that kind of culture has allowed us to have. Number of people who have worked for us for 15, 13, 12, I think is my current people that are out there have been here for a very long time. They're part of the family even though they're not. You know, their last name doesn't say birdie on it, but we work really hard in building a core that can. You know, property management is a tough business. I've said all along one of our core values is that we're going to have fun, and so one of the things we've always built is if we can have fun doing the worst part of that business, then we got it made. So we have a lot of fun when we're doing the fun parts of the business and when we go out of our way to make sure people are going to have fun. But we also find ways just to have fun and to really own that. There are tough parts of that business also. Chris: Sure, well, true for any business, right. There's always, yeah, the piece that you don't enjoy doing. But you know you have to right, it's a necessary piece but it may not be the most fun. I think you're right. If you can bring joy and fun into that, then the rest should be easy. Brian: right, because it's the stuff you like to do and want to do and, as I think about, I've been doing that for 28 years and I love going to work there. I love people that I work with and even though it's in a very tough and stressful because I mean, at times I have to evict people from their homes, I mean that isn't something that's fun, you know. But it has encouraged me that I'm waiting to see how much fun is running a pickleball facility going to be, where we have a core value of bringing joy to everyone through the sport of pickleball. And I'm like, if I can have fun doing property management, I think I should find it a little easier to have fun running a pickleball facility. But I don't know yet. We haven't opened our doors yet, we're going to find out, but it's. I mean, I'm just it feels like it's going to be fun, but you know, I don't know what, I don't know yet. Chris: So going back to Birdy and property management is anything innovative? Or you know how? Has technology or innovation kind of helped you be more efficient in what you do and maybe more profitable? Brian: Yeah, so we've. We have challenged ourselves to chase technology. You know, if you go all the way back to probably, I mean, and we've done this for a long time and we've had a website since 1998 when it didn't do anything and most people didn't have it, I mean we have a five letter URL. I mean we are www.birdy.com, you know, and people have wanted to pay a lot of money to buy that name, but it's just something. Fortunately, my dad said I think this might be something someday, let me just get our name now. He was lucky, he did that. But from that we've continued to chase the changes. Every business has had major changes. I will tell you that, coming out of the 07, 08 mortgage industry collapse and all the problems that happened, property management got brought way up into the forefront and technology, of course, coming on strong at that time saw this as an open lane that nobody was in and they have been chasing after us like crazy. And we have said all along if we want to continue to be relevant, if we want to be a hundred-year-old business, the only way we're ever going to get there is we have to embrace technology, embrace change, figure out the ways to do that, race to it, understand it and apply it. You know however that is, and so we've dramatically changed our business from where we first I mean when we first started, you know everything was on paper. It was all in a folder. The folder was in a cabinet. You know, you met people face to face. I mean, everything has changed and you know, at our last national event, the big thing that was there was all AI driven. Not only have we used technology and we use computers and we've automated some things, but now we're having the computer starting to figure out what can they really do for us in the industry, and I see that being big changes coming forward as to what can it really do for us. Coming out of COVID, we learned we can do a lot and we don't really need an office to do it anymore. We can have remote team members. We can do a lot on Zoom. We can do everything with computers. I think AI is just going to push that, and that even runs into this business. Bill Dinkers has changed a lot and it's only a couple of years old, but it's incorporated on court cameras that film the sessions for the players, and now that company is building AI, so it's going to be able to tell them automatically. You know some statistics from their match, you know counting things for them and I'm like, and so again, very early stages open landscape that technology and AI development is just stepping into, and I'm just curious and excited to see what can that take us to. I mean, because that's the future of our business, all of our businesses. Chris: Oh for sure, I mean, technology is not going anywhere. I think I had someone tell me one time never bet against technology. Technology always wins right Eventually it continues to evolve and you may not be an early adopter, but you better pay attention and learn how to integrate it sooner rather than later, or you're going to get left behind. Brian: Well, right, and it'll show you ways that you can like. We can manage more properties with less people. Because of technology, we can have individuals working for us now all over the world and we have been embraced that for a long time and we're about a 50-50 business. Half of our employees are here in town. The other half are all remote team members and primarily in Mexico, because I'm in South Texas, so I need people that can speak Spanish, and what greater way to have somebody work for me whose primary language is Spanish? So that part has been a significant change in the property management side of it. And that comes with technology. Right, because they have a computer. They can do everything. They have a phone line, so you call my office and you hit the phone. It's calling them Because phone is now what? A computer? Everything is a computer. If you can learn how to adapt the changes in your business to automation, you find ways to grow and to make money when you're doing it right. Chris: So you mentioned the 08 kind of market crash. What were some of the lessons you learned? I think that's a pretty important or severe impact on your business business and we always learn, kind of through some of those crises. So what were some of the things that you learned, maybe about your company or, more importantly, about yourself that kind of helped pull the company through to continue on a path of success? Brian: Well, if you think about it, most people saw that as a crash, as a problem. In my world it was actually a good thing. Besides the fact that people were losing their houses to foreclosure, that was certainly a negative. That didn't help me at all. But what came behind that was investors, and investors were buying those properties and turning them in to single family rentals and they needed management behind it. People who wanted to hold onto their house but had to leave them could not sell them Again. Another thing we were ready for growth. We were prepared for growth and we were not scared to grow as fast as we possibly could In those years. We doubled in size in both 07 and 08. And I think a lot of that was we were preparing for growth and then something happened that we didn't expect. But we were ready and I don't think anybody else was, so we benefited from that. We exploded over about a two or three year visit and really skyrocketed us up that. We've never lost that position since. Chris: That's amazing. So you talked about you were preparing for growth before those events happened. What was it you were doing to be preparing yourself for that growth? Brian: Making sure I have the right staff, all my training, all my processes, systems, policies and procedures. You know, you, when you first start and you're an entrepreneur, you have this great idea. You know how to do it all in your head, you make sure it can work right. What a lot of entrepreneurs aren't great at is writing it all down, systematizing it all and teaching people how to do it. And so, as you're growing, you're just throwing things trying to fill in these holes and you have to learn there's got to be a better process to your business and growing your business, and an individual who is forward thinking and really crazy ideas and just really interested to go do all these wonderful things can come up with some great stuff, but they're not the person that's going to carry it the long-term, step-by-step and so, understanding what you're good at, learning who you need around you to fill in those pieces where you're not and luckily for me, you know I have children who are from me but not really like me and so and they're not really like each other and so, collectively, the four of us and others that we've built into that start to create more of a complete package, and we learned and we're continuing to learn. We are forever changing and we are forever growing. It never stops, and that's, I think, it. I think at that time, what we wanted was I wanted to grow. We were talking about growing and I was trying everything to be visible because, remember, technology hadn't taken over. You know, people weren't finding you online. You had to. You know, I was still paying for ads and newspapers and the yellow pages because I wanted people to find me. But I found technology earlier than anybody else. I found a program called allpropertymanagementcom when it first opened and it was the first marketplace for property managers on the internet and I raced to it. I was the only one there in 2007. And that's when everyone started freaking out what am I going to do with my property? They looked and they found me, and that was a big part of so just the little steps like that was like not, I mean, that was an investment, I was paying money to do that, but I thought there would be a payoff. I didn't expect the tremendous payoff I got, but it really was a lot about just making sure you know what you have around you and a lot of times, what happens is we don't hire for growth, right, we want growth, then growth happens and then we get squished by the work. Everyone gets overworked, everyone gets stressed, nobody's happy, culture starts to get hurt and you can't sometimes, can never hire fast enough to catch up to train them all. So, knowing your business, watching closely, investing in growth by investing in your people, those are some of the lessons I learned because I did all that wrong at first and I suffered because of it and I've learned to do it differently because of that. Chris: Yeah, that's a beautiful point. I mean to your point about if you start to grow you haven't, excuse me, hired for it then you start making hiring decisions out of desperation and that's a recipe for disaster, as opposed to being able to follow that process. As you mentioned, that process is in place, that you stick to that. You follow that. You're always looking to evolve and change and tweak as times change. But if you're behind the curve, if you will, then it's hard to catch up. Brian: You also have to change with times. I mean when you can be hiring, when you don't need to hire someone, you're not in a hurry. During your interview process you don't settle for okay, this person's good enough, right? You're like, if none of them are good enough, well then they're none. Keep looking right. But if you're in a hurry, if you're in a need, then anyone close you're going to take and it may not be a good fit for you. And I would tell you, before COVID you had people in large numbers applying for jobs, but after COVID that changed dramatically and it became a point. I mean I used to say if I could get 10 people to interview, five of them would show up, or maybe six, and one or two or three potentially could be good opportunities there and you'd be able to windle it down to possibly one good quality candidate. After COVID you were lucky if one person showed up, and I don't think that's really changed dramatically even yet today. Chris: That was my question. It feels, like in the last, say, 12 months or so, there's starting to be a little bit of a maybe it's slow, but a swing back towards people realizing. You know you hear the bigger companies saying five days back in the office and you know that you know where we had the quiet quitting going on in 21, 22. It seems to me there's a little less of that and it's coming back. There are maybe more people out there and you hear that you know new college graduates are having, you know, really difficult times finding jobs because it seems like it's tightening a little bit Well. Brian: Luckily I'm in a season in which I've not needed to hire and I've got everything placed out right, and so I hope when I start hiring again in that space I do see that change, because I've noticed a big difference there and even had to change my whole process of what's really important when I interview people I mean I have put you know the number there are two things that are at the top of the list, and that is an overwhelmingly positive attitude and an undeniable desire to work. And if people come in with those two things, I can take them from there with anything else, because I can't give them either one of those. I can't culture that to anyone, I can't teach that to anybody. They have to have those two things If they have those, if they have those two things clearly, and you can find figure that out pretty quick. Chris: So I have a chance to identify with that, because the words I use are we look for effort and attitude Right. And I like your desire to work. You would think that would come natural, but you and I both know it doesn't. You're interviewing people. They just want a job sometimes or a paycheck, and they don't really have a desire to work or work hard. So I agree, you have to have an interview process that can kind of figure that out. Brian: That's true and we've, and that's something you have to learn and experience and get through and continue to tweak because, as you think you have the best experience, your market of applicants change and then you have to change and adapt with them. BTXBAdvert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom. And thanks for listening to the show. Chris:So we kind of look at the landscape out there. What are some of the headwinds that you either are dealing with now or that you think may be coming around the corner, that you're trying to prepare for to kind of not let them slow you down? Brian: I think that in the residential property management space, when times are good we do well, when times are bad, we do even better. So generally making sure that we're running the best business that we can, that we're providing what people need, figuring out a way to be being better Everyone wants to say they're better, but being better doesn't really necessarily draw anyone's attention anymore because it's like are you really better? You're just saying you're better. But when you're different and you can show someone why you are different, that's what really changes it, and I and so we focus on how are we different, why are we different, how can we be different and what differences are going to be important in the next five years that may not have been important in the last five years. Chris: That's really good. Yeah, I could see where and I would think even the lots have been written about it how difficult it is for people to purchase a home. Now, right, the interest rates, one thing, maybe the lack of accumulated wealth or down payments because of the lending markets. I can see where that would boost your business. Brian: I would tell you that in 2024, nationwide the market said that rental markets should have been skyrocketing and doing well, but for a variety of reasons it was not the best year. 2025 has started out as a much better year. Last year was a rough year on most residential property managers and when we look at that it came back to a tremendous amount of apartment complexes that were built coming out of COVID that opened and it drew a lot of the market space away People not buying, not moving, families coming together in one location, which reduces right. But we've seen a big change this year at probably one of our busiest first quarters in a while, so we're hoping that just continues. Chris: Very good. So, shifting gears a little bit Sounds like a company that you love. You said you love to have fun doing it. I guess we're in it for most of your life, bought it from your dad. All things going well, Kids are in it, Kids are thriving and against that backdrop you decide to step out and take on the pickleball business, which there's certainly some competition there. Maybe San Antonio's market was a little lacking. There's certainly some competition there. Maybe San Antonio's market was a little lacking, but there's all kinds of people doing pickleball courts now. So what was it that inspired you or drove you to make that decision and take on that risk? Brian: Well, so I started playing pickleball for the first time coming out of COVID in 2020, when our mayor said, okay, you can go and gather, but it has to be outside. And so there was a tennis place that had converted on a tennis court. Still, they converted and made these makeshift pickleball and I went out and said, hey, this is a lot of fun. Eventually, chicken and Pickle opened in San Antonio. I went inside to that and I thought, hey, I really like this, and started playing there. Quite regularly. My wife and a non pickleball related injury broke her ankle and we were out for about a year. When I came back one year later, everything had changed. It was almost impossible to book a court. The age of the players had dropped 20 years in a year. It used to be forties and fifties and I walk in and now it's twenties and thirties and I was like, okay, something has really happened here. So I did a lot of research, looked at all the numbers and then I started saying, okay, we don't have enough courts and we don't have any indoor courts, and I was like I think we could do a good job at this. I was first trying to find a place to go play, and what it led me to is there's a need. Maybe I can solve that need. And then, in researching it in the state of Texas, san Antonio was lacking in indoor courts In the country. We're doing awful. Houston was the only city in Texas even on the radar for the number of pickleball courts, and the number of indoor pickleball courts they have more than anyone in Texas. They have more than almost any other city in the country. So that city had figured it out and I'm like we hadn't yet. And I'm like we hadn't yet and I'm like, hey, if you're going to do something and you're going to be different, one of the greatest ways of being different is be first, because if you're first, you're different. There's nobody else, right? And so so I dove in, found a great Dill. Dinkins is a national franchise and I believed in what they put together and and so I'm one of their first franchisees. I'm going to be opening up my first club here in about 10 days here in San Antonio, and I'm a regional developer, so I have the right to develop up to 20 clubs. Whether I open them or help somebody else who wants to run their own pickleball location here, I will be supporting them and getting them open, and I can open all of my clubs. Other entities can open all theirs. There will not be enough pickleball, because if I fill all my clubs up all 20 clubs open and they're all completely full that would only represent a fraction of 1% of the Bexar County population, and so there's room for everybody and there's room for growth. And that's kind of one of the reasons why I got into this is that I'm like hey plus, I love it. I have so much fun, and I'm going to tell you what running a property management business has been a lot of fun, but I really hope that running a pickleball business is going to be even a lot easier to have fun. We'll see. I don't know yet. Chris: Yeah Well, in 10 days you'll start to figure it out. Brian: Well, that's free, that's free week, everyone's coming for free, so they're going to love me for at least a week, for sure. We'll see what happens after that. Chris: Good strategy there. Yeah, I know. Look, we've worked with some entrepreneurs and developers here in the Houston area doing this right, developing pickleball venues with the bars and the food service, and that's where they did the market research. And even in Houston it's interesting to hear your numbers on the covered courts in Houston, kind of leading all cities but there is a lack of courts in light of the demand especially, you're certainly private clubs have taken converted tennis courts or extra space where they put in pickleball courts, but if you're not a member of that club you don't have access. And so for the general public to have access, things like what you're doing and chicken, chicken pickle, et cetera, and some of the maybe non-national brands just worn off local things there's still a ton of demand for that. Brian: Yeah, if you look at it, lifetime Gyms and LA Fitness have both decided they're going away from basketball and they're going all in on pickleball. And I talked to their national developer and I said why are you making this change? And they said well, basketball has led to altercations and fights and problems and pickleball equals new membership and so they're all in and you can see, most of them are converting them. I have a couple of Gold's Gyms in San Antonio that have converted into pickleball in their courts. It's just there's such a need, there's such a desire. A lot of people say they find a way to play, they'll play anywhere. A lot of people haven't played because they say it's too hard to find a place to play. So we're hoping we can be part of the solution to that and start giving lots and lots of options for people to come out and play and see how easy it is, how fun it is. The community that's built around this is unlike other sports is the community that's built around this is unlike other sports? It is. It is a unique game in which it is the most gender equal and age equal. I can go out on any given day and lose to an eight-year-old or an 80-year-old, and both of them could be a male or a female. It doesn't matter, because this is. It is the equal sport amongst all sports. Chris: Yeah, well, I'll say you know, given the timing when you're opening and the fact that you know we're in Texas, being covered courts is going to be a nice added bonus, because I don't think you want to be in the middle of summer outside on a pickleball court for too long. Brian: Well, they've been doing it for years. What I have to do is get them in here so they can see, and that's the thing about being different. So some things that are different with us is we have pro cushion courts. They're all individually fenced. We have special LAD court lighting that's designed specifically for pickleball. Of course, it's not windy in here. There's no rain, there's no heat, there's no humidity and, as you can see behind me, all the walls are black in the playing surface, and that's so. When you're standing on your court and your opponent hits the ball pops, you know it's coming outside. You don't see that. You got wind, you got heat, you got sweat, you got movement, you got craziness, and so that's where we've dove into being different and we're hoping it'll pay off. Chris: No, all true. I mean having played myself. You're right, if you're outside and depending on where the sun is, you may, it's sometimes hard to see the ball. Brian: Yeah, true, not in here. Perfect lighting, perfect temperature, perfect courts. And the one thing I get annoyed I'm a spoiled. I'm a pickleball snob. Now. I cannot stand playing on a court where the court right next door is not separated and their ball keeps coming into mine. I'm like I can't even play that way anymore. I'm, I've become a. I've become a pickleball snob. I expect to be able to get on my court and play my game and not be disrupted by anybody else. Chris: There you go, as every man and woman should have a right to right. That's right. So so you kind of bit this off as a franchisee. Let's talk a little bit about that. What are some of the things that you learned about that process that maybe you weren't expecting that you could share with some listeners, and maybe a lot of people look at franchise opportunities. Brian: So I tell people all the time. So I've been involved in franchising in a couple of other ways. I went for about a four-year period and worked for a nationwide property management franchising company called Property Management Incorporated and I was up at the corporate level seeing. So I learned about franchising itself and people go why are you doing this, why should I do this? And I would give them reasons why. If you're already running your business, you already know what you're doing. You don't need a franchise when you're starting out from brand new and you have no idea what you're doing and you're not really sure how you're going to do it. You have to consider that Anyone can do the business on their own right. Even me, I could have opened this on my own. But do you know how much stuff I didn't know about pickleball that I learned from my franchise organization and the attention that it has drawn me? You have to figure out when that might be right for you. I think that there's been a lot of benefit of doing that. But you got to examine them all. I went and looked at every existing franchise when I started to do this Now. Since then, there are five new Pickleball franchises available and I'm sure there'll be five more in the next six months. So there are a lot of choices. I looked at them all, I checked into their history, I interviewed, expect what they need to do, and then I went and did a discovery day in Columbia, maryland, to find out what was Dill Dinkers all about, and a big part of it is who is the leadership? Who's going to be guiding you? Who are you going to be working with? And I absolutely loved the people that were involved, and that's a big part of this. You're going to be in business with them at the same time, and so this made a lot of sense for me. They were structuring in a very smart way of doing it, and they're the fastest growing Pickleball franchise that's out there, and they've sold 27 regions across the country. They've made great strides at improving everything that we do the play site cameras that we talked about earlier, with the AI involved that's something that's new. The pro cushion courts that's new from when we first started, and now all of our pro shops are powered by Pickleball Central, which, again, is also something new. So when you look at a franchise, it's like, yeah, they exist, but what are they doing to evolve? What are they doing to be different, because you're going to rely on that and work with them to show them how else they can be different. I decided this was the way for me to go and by being a regional developer here in town, I have my first one opening, I have my second one already under construction and I've got 18 more to go, but I'm probably not going to open all 18 of those. So there are opportunities right now and the way Jill Dinkers is, they have your corporate staff, but I'm the local representative. I'm here to help develop anyone locally. So anyone who wants to open one here has me helping them, and I've already gone through all the pain and suffering of what does it take to open a place. I know all. I know what you need to do to have it happen. They taught me what they knew. Now I've experienced here locally in San Antonio. I know what's going to happen here. Those are some of the advantages when you start looking at franchising and say, hey, I want to do a business, I don't want to do it alone, I don't want to start and it's tough. There's things you've got to know to be successful right out of the gun and you may not know everything on your own, it makes sense. Chris: And I said there's the franchisors got to show that value right. The why you're going to be making payments and getting the benefit of some of their things. It occurs to me too, one of the advantages, at least to what you're doing with these indoor courts and just kind of looking behind you is that you could take advantage of some of the big box locations that have been abandoned right that there's every city has those where there was some store that has either now gone to a bigger complex but left that space behind it looks like that's what you can kind of take advantage of from a real estate perspective. Brian: Right and I figured, with my real estate background, that this was going to be a piece of cake. But let me just tell you, san Antonio is a healthy city. We don't have big boxes just sitting around empty. Finding the location was the biggest challenge for me, and that isn't true everywhere else. That's why I'm franchise number one, but I'm not the first franchisee to open, because there are people who found it much quicker. The gentleman up in Pennsylvania went on his very first visit and found two locations and has opened both of them. One of them has 17 courts inside with 75 foot ceilings and no columns. Wow, I think it was like an aircraft hangar at some point. It was an indoor soccer facility for a while and it is like the perfect layout for indoor pickleball. But he found it in one visit, found one landlord, signed two leases and opened them both up. I have been to hundreds of places because I have to have the right hype, I have to have space between columns. I got to have air conditioning, I got to have bathrooms and I got to figure out, you know what's it going to cost to convert the place? And in San Antonio we don't have a lot of space just sitting around empty. Well, that's a good problem, it's good, it's good for the city. I mean, I found this one and I found my second one and I'm continually looking and there will be more opportunities and there will be more opportunities and there will be. Yeah, I think the strange thing in my city is we have probably the most vacant space in our city is industrial space. There's industrial warehousing all over and it's all empty and they don't want to talk to me yet. But they're going to one day they're going to say you know what I'm tired of being empty. Maybe we should talk to these pickleball guys, because it's the perfect layout giant empty buildings just sitting around empty. One day, when I can start turning them into pickleball, then the life's going to be real good. Chris: For sure. So just real quick, though, I want to ask about you kind of just as a leader right, your leadership style and how you think that's evolved over time, and kind of what you've learned maybe about yourself and about leadership in the process, in that journey. Brian: You know I learned leadership pretty young. I mean I go back and think about it and say you know, my dad was in the military. I was a military brat. We were all part of scouting. That was you start learning leadership and scouts right. I joined the Air Force myself, I served time in that and that the leadership is pretty well defined there. I mean, you know you can grow into being a good leader through that process. But in the military leaders comes with rank. Sometimes you don't really you haven't earned it, but you get it because you wear the rank and there's a difference in just knowing and understanding. And in that I learned I'm like if I want to be a leader, I've got to earn the right to be the leader of other people. As I started growing my own business, the challenge was I know how I want everything done. I like it done. A certain way. Most entrepreneurs are type A personalities we got an idea, we're going to run with it, we want to do it and no one could do it as good as we can. Well, you're going to be awful lonely and awful small if you think you can grow business all by yourself. So lesson you have to learn is how do I surround myself with people who make me better, who fill in the gaps of the things I'm not, and how do I let go and let them lead? So I've learned to invest in my staff and invest in them being leaders and letting it go. And remember, if you get from point A to point B and it doesn't cost any more money and it isn't illegal, does it really? And it doesn't use up any more time, does it really matter if they got there different than I would have? And honestly, it doesn't. But that's a lesson I had to learn. I was not very good at it, so my wife and my kids pulled things out of my gripped hands because they were like you got to let this go or we're never going to grow. And then you look back later and go wow, I'm so glad I did that. I mean, they're doing a better job at it than I ever did. And then you just have to make sure you're continually watching over what you're doing right, building good systems, checking on what you're doing, investing in your people, which means spending money on them, spending money to educate them, spending money for them to go out and try things, and also, don't be scared to try something. It's probably one of the biggest lessons I've learned Don't be scared to try something new that no one else has tried, because they're not all going to work, and I can tell you some of mine that were absolute failures. You figure it out, you go eh, switch back, we're done. But the ones that didn't work grew the business, made me money right, made us more efficient, and not being fearful to just change, adapt and be different is a big part, and when your staff sees that you're willing to do that and you're encouraging them and you're investing in them and you're giving them the ability to lead, you'll be surprised what they can do for you. Chris: Right. Well, so first, thank you for your service and second, yes, I think part of that for me is you can't be scared to fail, nervous. And second, yes, I think you know part of that for me is you can't be scared to fail. Uh. So if you don't take any chances, you won't learn, you won't grow. So you've got to be willing to do that and be observant of is it going well, is it not? Do I need to pivot, do I not? For your business and for yourself? Right? Brian: and you have to listen to your staff around you, because at certain point when you grow a business effectively, you start to get out of the day to day, and so you've got to check on it, you've got to hear from them, you've got to build on it and you've got to give them the ability to tell you maybe it is time to pivot, maybe we need to do something different, maybe there is a need out there, even though you didn't recognize it. They need to know. They can bring it to you and you'll listen Doesn't mean everything is going to change, but you give them a chance to speak it up and then it's out there and then you talk about it, and we do that regularly and it really changes the business when people have the freedom to bring up ideas and not be afraid of it. Chris: So let's move from the business side of things to just personal. Tell me what's your favorite part about San Antonio and why you decided to call it home. Brian: I moved here with my dad. He got stationed here when I was 13 years old and this has been my hometown almost ever since I joined the Air Force and I did leave here and I missed it all while I was gone. There's something about the community here in San Antonio the people, the events, the city that I missed. I've lived in other places. I don't think I ever missed not being there as much as I missed being here, and so this is truly my hometown. I love the city, all that we have going on, the fact we continue to grow and get big but we still feel like a small town Never and there's something for everyone. There's everything you possibly can want to do. You can do it here. I mean, we're in the middle of Fiesta. It's been going on forever, but there's still something in Fiesta that I still probably haven't even done. As many times I've gone out and done things and it's exciting just to be involved in that. I've been a Spurs fan since I moved here. I actually saw the Spurs as soon as I came back. We were coming back from Italy, moving to San Antonio, and the Spurs. I was 13 years old. The Spurs were in the Eastern Conference Finals against the Washington Bullets and they were up three games to one and I watched them lose the next three games and then not, and then I followed them and we didn't make it back to a conference championship for 20 years in 99. And then the next 20 years was a good payoff. We had a lot of fun and won a lot of games. Chris: So this is my town. Brian: I love my city. I love all that we do here. Chris: Yeah well, it's definitely spent enough time there to get a feel a very unique and welcoming culture and vibe. You mentioned Fiesta, but I don't see any badges on you. Brian: They're on sale at the front counter. Gotcha yeah, I actually was we made one, we've made one, we've traded some. A few people have bought them and it's a fun part to be part of that when you run a business in San Antonio. Chris: For sure. I've had the benefit of being there for a week on business during Fiesta and learned the whole thing about the badges and the trading and still have them with me. That's a lot of fun. Brian: Yeah, last weekend one of my managers took them all, went down and was down there handing out badges and also handing out flyers about our business Just getting the word out and getting connections to both people and other businesses. It's a unique time when everyone's just willing to talk to you and get face-to-face and everyone wants everyone else's medals. The Fiesta medals are kind of a cool thing, yeah for sure. Chris: Okay, last question Do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Brian: Tex-Mex for sure. I'll tell you this in traveling the country. There are other places where you can get barbecue. Maybe not quite the same, but there's some good barbecue out there. There is no good Tex-Mex anywhere except here. Chris: Yeah, yeah, I think it's a pretty accurate statement. Well, brian, I really appreciate you taking the time to kind of share your story, both on the property management side and Pickleball. Good luck with the grand opening coming up and look forward to seeing you guys succeed in that industry as well. Brian: All right, well, hey, great Thanks for having me on Great conversation. All right, take care. All right, bye, and there we have it. Special Guest: Brian Birdy.

This is by far one of the most important podcasts that we have ever done. It addresses the absolute most important subject that there is to discuss. Without this, the world has no hope. Daniel O'Connor is our guest on this episode. This is an episode that will have an impact on everyone that sees it! ------------------------------- More on the writings and meditations of the passion of Christ HERE: https://www.sunofmywill.com/ -------------------------------- Get Daniel's new book HERE: https://www.amazon.com/First-Last-Deception-Aliens-Return-ebook/dp/B0DJFWQ421 -------------------------------- PATREON - Help support this podcast by becoming a US Grace Force PATRON here: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=25398590 -------------------------------- Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKZ9OefEJLEx1qYcBxgAFww/join --------------------------------- Subscribe to our NEW US Grace Force YouTube channel! US GRACE FORCE 2.0. Don't miss any new, great content!! https://youtube.com/@USGraceForce2.0?si=zq47qEqPITXnIDkg -------------------------------- Join the US Grace Force Team HERE: https://visitor.r20.constantcontact.com/manage/optin?v=001ESuSGaJpYPCG2iUdd4j4bkKwd4gkh2ZUVbam_Ty9rCn6blH6_U3cI2D8UvSLEcSzHnC4eq2UWmK1I0SbEw0SPKqnkZ2j0Z4J4D-_m4dD6CKJU9day-bBa8Qnx4dv7RLDIVlYAjL1JWsjfUTNPH2jQIVY9gbdbz4O4oMIzv5V1dT_upQsD8cX86iq_5Y-x4eLrTVtdOmA24s%3D&fbclid=IwY2xjawFRvvdleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHdo526R1rgNAIW76yyQnVbo957e1TgOoQ4RH3Tr84D8376Y7jng09gtlOw_aem_H7Y7Ej6cF6-nPyfOZ4qMTQ -------------------------------- PRAY THE ROSARY: The Joyful Mysteries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMAR9MEN1pE&t=656s --------------------------------- The Sorrowful Mysteries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHUkx66oAxE&t=311s --------------------------------- The Glorious Mysteries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg_JWsxS6EA&t=207s --------------------------------- The Luminous Mysteries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVL5CqBr3CA&t=198s --------------------------------- The Full Rosary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44zL1kFIvP8&t=1765s --------------------------------- Be Ready Emergency Preparedness Course: Be prepared to Care for and Protect your Family in times of Natural Disasters, Emergencies, Civil Unrest, Economic Collapse, and more. Sign up for the course HERE: https://brcoalition.com/ --------------------------------- Go HERE to check out the BR Coalition and get great training Body, Mind & Soul! https://brcoalition.com/ Become part of one of the fastest growing online Catholic Membership sites. --------------------------------- Get your hands on some great US Grace Force T-shirts! https://us-grace-force.creator-spring.com/ --------------------------------- The seven promises given to St Bridget of Sweden for those who devote themselves to her Seven Sorrows. 1. I will grant peace to their families. 2. They will be enlightened about the Divine Mysteries. 3. I will console them in their pains, and I will accompany them in their work. 4. I will give them as much as they ask for as long as it does not oppose the adorable will of my Divine Son or the sanctification of their souls. 5. I will defend them in their spiritual battles with the infernal enemy and I will protect them at every instant of their lives. 6. I will visibly help them at the moment of their death—they will see the face of their mother. 7. I have obtained this grace from my divine Son, that those who propagate this devotion to my tears and dolors will be taken directly from this earthly life to eternal happiness, since all their sins will be forgiven and my Son and I will be their eternal consolation and joy.

We brought our pal Felix back to talk about MMA Guys. We met the Socrates of MMA Guys, Could an MMA guy beat up a Chimp? Is Krav Maga a good fighting style? We also showed Felix the new Opie prank channel. The audio was a bit 'fucky' so I reuploaded a fixed version. If it's still bad then I'm doing a bit -Chris There is more Chris at https://www.patreon.com/notevenashow And for more Guys content, streams and SHOCKTOBER: a deep dive into shock jocks you can click patreon.com/guyspodcast, Join us on the Sunday Night Stream every Sunday night at 8:00 EST and I am on https://bsky.app/profile/murderxbryan.bsky.social  Guys is on Instagram! https://www.instagram.com/guys.pod Guys has a Post Office Box now! PO Box 10769 Columbus Ohio 43201

How do toys shape who we become? Today, I sit down with a fascinating toy historian Chris Byrne who reveals the hidden power of play - from how different toys develop everything from relationship skills to problem - solving abilities.    We explore why true play isn't about reaching an end goal, but about embracing the pure joy of the journey. Whether you're looking to understand the art of playing alongside your kids or giving them space to explore independently, this episode will transform how you think about playtime. Join us for a rich conversation about rediscovering the magic that happens when we give ourselves permission to simply play.   After exploring the art of play with our toy historian today, I want to share something powerful with you. My book Fertile Imagination tackles a crucial truth: we can't guide our children toward imagination if we've lost touch with our own. I'll show you the exact framework I used to reawaken and strengthen this superpower – the same one that transformed both my life and my three sons'. If you're ready to rediscover your creativity and childlike zest for life, grab your copy now: https://bit.ly/fertilebook     In this episode, you will hear:    Play is a process, not a means to an end, and embracing it can reduce stress. Imagination influences every decision we make. Playing with toys helps kids develop problem-solving and relationship skills. Adults benefit from play too—it fosters creativity, joy, and innovation. Letting children lead playtime strengthens their confidence and creativity. Kids learn by doing, and unstructured play is vital for their development. In corporate settings, a playful mindset can unlock new ideas and innovation. Fear of failure limits creativity—kids don't judge play, and neither should we.   This episode is brought to you by:    Fertile Imagination: A Guide For Stretching Every Mom's Superpower For Maximum Impact – My book is available as a hard cover, paperback, and also as an audiobook. If you are on the go and wish to quickly jot down where you can purchase the book then head to: https://bit.ly/fertilebook.    If however you want to grab the audio version then head to the show notes to click the direct Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Fertile-Imagination-Stretching-Superpower-Maximum/dp/B0CK2ZSMLB   About Chris Bryne   Chris Byrne has spent over 35 years in the toy industry, holding major marketing and creative roles before launching Byrne Communications, a consultancy specializing in product development, strategic planning, and marketing. A passionate advocate for the power of play, he has studied its impact on child development and creativity across industries. He has appeared on major media outlets worldwide, sharing insights on toys, play, and innovation. He also co-hosts The Playground Podcast, diving deep into the toy industry's past, present, and future.   SHARE this episode with fellow moms and entrepreneurs who want to bring more creativity into their lives! Chris's insights on play, imagination, and innovation are a must-listen for anyone balancing motherhood and career growth. Let's embrace play, rediscover joy, and inspire the next generation! Supporting Resources:   Website: https://www.thetoyguy.com/  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thetoyguy/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thetoyguyofficial/ The Playground Podcast: Spotify & Apple Podcasts Subscribe and Review   Have you subscribed to my podcast for new moms who are entrepreneurs, founders, and creators?  I'd love for you to subscribe if you haven't yet.    I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast for writer moms. About Fertile Imagination   You can be a great mom without giving up, shrinking, or hiding your dreams. There's flexibility in how you pursue anything – your role, your lifestyle, and your personal and professional goals. The limitations on your dreams are waiting to be shattered. It's time to see and seize what's beyond your gaze. Let's bridge your childhood daydreams with your grown-up realities. Imagine skipping with your kids along any path – you, surpassing your milestones while your kids are reaching theirs. There's only one superpower versatile enough to stretch your thinking beyond what's been done before: a Fertile Imagination. It's like kryptonite for impostor syndrome and feeling stuck when it's alert!    In Fertile Imagination, you will awaken your sleeping source of creative solutions. If you can wake up a toddler or a groggy middle schooler, then together with the stories in this book – featuring 25 guests from my podcast Unimaginable Wellness, proven tools, and personal anecdotes – we will wake up your former playmate: your imagination!  Advance Praise    “You'll find reality-based strategies for imagining your own imperfect, fulfilling life in this book!” —MARTHA HENNESSEY, former NH State Senator    “Melissa invites the reader into a personal and deep journey about topics that are crucially important to uncover what would make a mom (and dad too) truly happy to work on…even after the kids are in bed.” —KEN HONDA, best-selling author of Happy Money    “This book is a great purchase for moms in every stage of life. Melissa is like a great friend, honest and wise and funny, telling you about her life and asking you to reflect on yours.” —MAUREEN TURNER CAREY, librarian in Austin, TX           TRANSCRIPT 00:00:00 Chris: I really believe is what we play with as kids really becomes, we become a lot of that. And we had a basement in our house that had a room in it, that had a window in it. And my brothers and I would create puppet shows. And we would do that. And we would just go round up all the kids in the neighborhood and say, you have to watch this puppet show. And they did. I mean, they were good. But it was really about storytelling. It was about connection. It was about making things up and just feeling very alive in that moment, feeling very connected to who I was at that time and being able to share that with other people. 00:00:43 Melissa: Welcome to the Mom Founder Imagination Hub, your weekly podcast to inspire you to dream bigger. Plan out how you're going to get to that next level in business, find the energy to keep going, and make sure your creative juices are flowing so that this way you get what you really want rather than having to settle. Get ready to discover how mom founders have reimagined entrepreneurship and motherhood. Ever wonder how they do it? Tune in to find out. 00:01:09 Melissa: And stretch yourself by also learning from diverse entrepreneurs who might not be moms, but who have lessons you can tailor about how you can disrupt industries and step way outside of your comfort zone. I believe every mom's superpower is her imagination. In this podcast, I'm gonna give you the mindset, methods, and tools to unleash yours. Sounds good? Then keep listening. 00:01:36 Melissa: So how do toys shape who we become? Have you ever asked yourself that question as you are giving your child a toy? If that toy is going to influence their career choices ahead or the way that they are, their character. Today, I sat down with a fascinating toy historian, Chris Byrne. 00:02:04 Melissa: Now he is a 35 year plus veteran of the toy industry. He's held major marketing and creative positions earlier in his life. And he's appeared on TV talking about toys and play in the US and around the world. He's even been on the Live with Kelly and Mark show as a regular guest. And he has his own podcast, by the way, the Playground Podcast. 00:02:29 Melissa: So, Chris reveals today the hidden power of play, from how different toys develop everything from relationship skills to problem-solving abilities. We also explore why true play isn't about reaching an end goal, it's about embracing the pure joy of the journey. So, whether you're looking to understand the art of playing alongside your kids or giving them some space to explore independently, this episode is going to change how you think about playtime. So I encourage you to join us for this rich conversation about rediscovering the magic that happens when we give ourselves permission to just play. 00:03:10 Melissa: Okay, so before we jump into the conversation, I wanna just let you know that after the conversation, I would invite you to explore the art of play with my book, Fertile Imagination. Why is that relevant to you as a mom? Here's what I want you to know. It's really hard to guide our kids toward imagination if we've secretly lost touch with our own. So in my book, Fertile Imagination, I share with you the exact framework that I used in order to reawaken my imagination, play with my imagination, stretch my imagination, and strengthen what I believe to be our greatest superpower. 00:03:56 Melissa: So this framework is super simple to follow. It is guided and it is also provided in lots of really cool journaling question prompts in the book. And it's gonna be the same exact process that I used in order to really get back in touch with that little childlike spirit that all of us has, but maybe we forgot we have held quite tightly close to our hearts. 00:04:22 Melissa: So, I invite you to go ahead, rediscover your creativity, and see if you can find your childlike zest for life. Because I really believe that it's hard to teach our kids things that we may have forgotten are natural to us, and maybe came naturally to us when we were younger. So enjoy the conversation. The link to the book is available in the show notes where you're listening to this. Let me read the actual link so that you can learn more about my book, Fertile Imagination. 00:04:53 Melissa: It is a bit.ly link. So it is bit.ly/fertilebook. You can absolutely grab a copy right there of Fertile Imagination. If you wanted the audio version that is available exclusively via Amazon. So go ahead and check out the show notes for that link. Thank you again. And I hope you enjoy the conversation and let me know what you think at the end, I will share with you my top three takeaways that you can apply to your immediate mom life. Thank you so much. 00:05:28 Melissa: Chris Byrne. I am so excited to have you here on the Mom Founder Imagination Hub. How are you? 00:05:35 Chris: I am very well. I'm so excited to be with you. Thank you so much for the invitation. 00:05:40 Melissa: I couldn't get enough of your TED Talk. I was like, oh my gosh, he's not just a toy historian. He's like a toy psychologist. I loved it. I loved it. So welcome to the show. Chris, I want to just start with the big, big question on my mind. Help me understand from your perspective, decades in the industry, learning about the art of play, like what is an imagination to you and do you consider it a superpower? 00:06:12 Chris: Well, I absolutely consider our imagination our superpower. It is the one thing that, really one of the many things that really define us as human beings. Nothing happens in our world that doesn't start in the imagination. It can be, what do I want for lunch? Or what do I want to be when I grow up? Or should I marry this person? Or should I have children? 00:06:34 Chris: Or whatever it is because we begin in the imagination and other kinds of animals, you just put food in front of them and they eat, it's instinctual. But for us, it's not- as humans, it's not just instinctual. We literally create our worlds on a daily basis and that starts in the imagination. 00:06:54 Melissa: I agree. And it's interesting because as a fully grown adult, I would say that when I was writing my book, Fertile Imagination, and I see it as like a superpower for moms who are technically adults. I feel like it's a topic that is seldom discussed amongst adults. Like, is this something that you are noticing? Or maybe, you know, people that have that childlike quality because of your industry? What's your take on imagination, the art of play, and being an adult? 00:07:30 Chris: Well, I think all of those are really critical to who we are, because play is really the act of asking a question, what if? What if I do this? What if I, you know, as an adult in can be, what if do whatever? For me, as a kid is like, what if I jump off this wall? What's gonna happen? You know, but we grow up and we have a little bit more, more adult kind of perceptions, if you will, for that. And it really is like trying to spin out a scenario. 00:08:06 Chris: So if I am going to take a new job, for example, what is that gonna be like? Who am I gonna be working with? And we begin to develop stories around things in our imagination. And those stories are very important because we really can't take action to make things real until we've imagined them as a concept. 00:08:28 Melissa: Yeah. And so, okay. So this is something that I'm struggling with right now. This is like real time, I need some help, get me unclogged sort of stuff. So this idea of having a story in my mind and having a vision I want to make real, the vision side of it is so hard right now for me to see, mainly because it's like, there's things that I've envisioned in the past, but I haven't made happen. So I don't know kind of like how to play myself to a solution or a vision or just kind of like, think with a little less of like the past, you know, like hindering this vision. 00:09:15 Chris: Right. It's a great, it's a great thing. I mean, I'm sorry you're going through that, but I think that if you look at how a child plays, right, when they get an idea and they don't sit there and think, well, if I just do this or I do this or I do that, it's going to be fun, right? They come, that's not fun. I'm done. I'm on to the next thing. And I think as adults, we should do that too. If something is becoming too much effort, if it's not working, then we just drop it and go on to the next thing. 00:09:47 Chris: And I don't think there's any harm or foul in that. And I think that when you look at a kid who is imagining and playing, they're not judging the play as they're doing it. They're looking at well, where did this take me and where should I go next from it? And it's a much freer, kind of more peaceful way to go through the world. 00:10:08 Chris: I mean, I talk about things that I've done that turned out to be mistakes. And I call them I said, well, that was a once in a lifetime experience. As in I don't have to do that again. I learned the lesson. 00:10:20 Melissa: Yeah. And I think, you know, approaching any problem from that perspective releases that pressure to get it right the first time. And it gives you like the levity to get back up and just be like, okay, let's go at it again. And I imagine like, cause I noticed also, and I know that this side of it might be a little bit more conventional thinking, but like, you actually bring these ideas into corporate settings, you know, the art of play. 00:10:51 Melissa: And I'm like, if I think about the different environments where it's not okay to play. It's not okay to make mistakes. Like how do you sell that idea of we're just playing right now and don't get frustrated if it works or not in like a corporate setting, you know? 00:11:11 Chris: Well, one of the things that's so interesting in a corporate setting is people come into a meeting or a brainstorming and they're focused on one specific outcome, right? So if you're focused on an outcome, you kind of end-run the process of play because play is a process. Play is asking, what if, you know, let's go down this road and let's go down this road and see what it is. So I always encourage people to be as off the wall as possible. I will give you an example that almost got me fired. 00:11:43 Melissa: This is a good one, okay. 00:11:44 Chris: And nobody will like it, but I was working with Ideal, with Ideal Toy Company and we had the Shirley Temple doll. And nobody, we had these porcelain $400 Shirley Temple dolls and Shirley Temple dolls were huge in the '30s and still with doll collectors, but nobody was buying them. And we thought, how do we get rid of them? And I said, well, why don't we put them on the QE2 and use them as skeet? Like people can launch the doll. 00:12:11 Chris: So the brand manager got really mad at me. And told me I was inappropriate. But as we talked more, we ended up doing a doll collecting event with Cunard that actually turned out to be good. So the idea is, go out there and play off the wall in a safe environment, obviously. So the idea of creating an environment where it's safe to play, where it's safe to have that sort of impulsive childish response to a situation is okay. 00:12:45 Chris: We would never have promoted that in a corporate sense. But the idea that we were just playing with ideas and being silly. That opens the pathway to being really creative and to seeing what could actually work. And then once you get that, you put the action steps in place to get to the next step. 00:13:05 Melissa: Yeah, I think just, you know, going crazy and just really trying to break out of conventional thinking and our very logical pathways in our mind, it's like first we do this, that, the other. It's almost like some sentences, right? And the way we like greet each other, it's so like rehearsed that to come up with something like, oh my gosh, I love your outfit. You know, it reminds me of like a toy soldier or something. It would be like way off, but it would start rapport, I think. Rapport or like, you know, people would be like, kind of weirded out. But I've always tried that. How can I not weird people out? 00:13:44 Chris: Well, it's, right, well, that's always a question, but I don't really worry about that too much. But I think that one of the things, again, as I was saying about process, but also getting over fear, right? As adults, we think, well, what if I get it wrong? Children, when they play, if you watch them play, they don't worry about getting it wrong. They just think, well, that didn't work. That didn't do what I wanted it to do. Let me do something else. They haven't built a hierarchy of judgment and really being unkind to themselves about doing something wrong. 00:14:19 Chris: And if you embrace play, there's really no kind of, you can't be wrong when you're playing, right? Some things may be practical, but there's imagination and there's spinning things out, things that might never become real, but then things that actually could practically become real. And the process of getting to that point is actually pretty joyful. 00:14:42 Melissa: And I think we could all use some more joy these days, that's for sure. Adults and children alike. So let's see, let's go back in time. So let's go back to the time where you recall maybe playing with a toy and feeling like an insane amount of joy. If you can think about, you know, your one moment or one of the moments, I'm curious to hear your perspective. 00:15:06 Chris: Well, it's really interesting because one of the things that I really believe is what we play with as kids really becomes, we become a lot of that. And we had a basement in our house that had a room in it. They had a window in it. And my brothers and I would create puppet shows. And we would do that. And we would just go round up all the kids in the neighborhood and say, you have to watch this puppet show. And they did. They were good. But it was really about storytelling. It was about connection. It was about making things up and just feeling very alive in that moment, feeling very connected to who I was at that time and being able to share that with other people. 00:15:52 Melissa: Wow, so that's interesting. So it's funny because I feel like maybe I was, because I was an only child for most of my upbringing, like a lot of the things I did were just on my own and I had to really figure out how to make something out of what was around me. So let me share like this one thing that I would do to just pass the time. And of course, like in the background, like there was like maybe Magnum P.I. playing or, you know, name- Hawaii Five-0, whatever my mom was into. 00:16:25 Melissa: So I would go to the closet and I would take out a shoebox. And I would proceed to create like a scene. So they're called dioramas. I looked it up because I was like, this is a weird thing that I just kept doing all the time. And then I would create little figurines and put like little slots, you know, on the sides and move the little carboards in and out, you know. And I was like, okay, I have to ask Chris, like, what does that say about me? I have no idea. 00:16:56 Chris: Well, I mean, I would say it sort of starts you as a storyteller, which is what you're doing today. You're telling stories and you're facilitating other people telling stories. But it's also, I mean, especially for children at that age, it's about trying to make sense of the world and the stories they tell us, like trying to make sense of relationships. I'll tell you another story. 00:17:18 Chris: Years ago, we were playing with some kids with Barbie dolls. And they had all these different Barbie dolls. And one kid took all the blonde Barbie dolls and they were making fun of the brunette Barbie doll. And we were just watching this and going, yeah, this is somebody who is working out a reality in their life. 00:17:38 Chris: And that is really what play is, because even as she, in this case it was a girl, became powerful in that situation, was able to stand up for herself, you're giving your brain the sense that you can actually do this. If you do it vicariously, you've already had that experience on some level. So that when you confront that in real life, it might be easier, or you might have a solution. 00:18:03 Chris: I mean, how many times do you go into a situation, an interview or whatever, and you've rehearsed what you're gonna say? And your brain already knows that. It's like visual, what they talk about in sports about visualizing, you know, the outcome. You know, you're already having that experience, which is so cool. Cause our brain doesn't know the difference sometimes between reality and what we imagine. 00:18:24 Melissa: I love that. I love that. And so, yeah, who knows what I was trying to work out? There are a lot of things going on in my home. I'll tell you that much. But yeah, I think, you know, that idea though, just like trying to work things out that, you know, maybe you don't have that first person experience with, but like doing it through the use of a toy. Have you noticed at a curiosity any sort of changes with the dynamics between toys and kids now that there's like AI sort of toys out there? 00:19:01 Chris: There are so many different types of play experiences. What we were just talking about is more traditional doll or action figure or stuffed animal kind of play where a child is really doing that. Some of the other stuff with AI or licensed space like Star Wars, Marvel, all of that is beginning to understand yourself as a capable human being. 00:19:23 Chris: So for example, if I'm a superhero, I can feel. I can have the feeling of what it's like to be a superhero. And I always say, if your life is all about mom is in control, eat your peas, get in the minivan, do your homework, suddenly if you're a superhero, that's very empowering. And then empowering as an individual to be able to confront the world in a different way because you're empowered. So it's very classical, the kind of totemistic idea that we take on the powers of the superheroes. 00:19:59 Chris: And even though we're not gonna fly, we're not gonna lift, we're not gonna pick up a truck, we're not gonna do that, you have the emotional sense of capability, which is really what it's all about. 00:20:10 Melissa: That's interesting. I think, I mean, I don't know. Now that I think about my kids, for example, their toy experiences these days is really YouTube videos and playing video games and things like that. And I wonder if that's also along the same thread of what you just said, feeling the different capabilities like running fast or jumping high, things like that. 00:20:37 Chris: I think definitely. I mean, it's, you know, YouTube videos are like today's cartoons, right, on some level. You know, I grew up watching cartoons and, and it was- so they're looking at who are my role models and who are, you know, somebody's doing something. Oh, I'd like to try that. And, you know, or oh, wow, they tried that, I'm not gonna do that, but what would it be like if I did this kind of thing? 00:21:03 Chris: So I think that it's a window on the world and people are always concerned about screen time and I'm never concerned about screen time so much as I'm concerned about what's on the screen. So that is what's being modeled through the YouTube things, things that you as a mom or a parent want your child to be consuming because it can be very supportive or it can be kind of dangerous depending on what kids have access to. 00:21:30 Melissa: Yeah. And it's so interesting what you're sharing right now, because I mean, I had Saturday morning cartoons, for example, and I ate a lot of cereals with all the dyes and all these other things. And my kids literally tell me, they're like, oh, we want to have Saturday morning cartoons just like you. But of course, it is that YouTube thing. And I limit it to SpongeBob. Like, that's appropriate for their ages right now. 00:21:54 Melissa: But I think that's so interesting, this whole idea of rehearsal and visualization and imagination. I wonder because when it comes to toys and just the way that they've changed through the years, how did, for example, Tickle Me Elmo, how did that support people in terms of capabilities or anything? I'm curious. 00:22:22 Chris: Well, Tickle Me Elmo was kind of an outlier in that, you know, in terms of classical play. Tickle Me Elmo became a fad, right? And fads take on a life of their own. They kind of jump the shark or jump from the toy industry because Tickle Me Elmo started as an entertaining little preschool doll for preschoolers, infants and preschoolers. Suddenly it becomes this whole cultural phenomenon that everybody has to have. 00:22:50 Chris: It becomes, so it's a fad, so it becomes kind of a marker in time. So if you were around for Tickle Me Elmo, and you remember that, it's sort of a springboard to your memories of what the latter part of 1996 was about, because that's when Tickle Me Elmo was really huge. So that's not really kind of play in the way that I talk about it a lot. That becomes a cultural event. And my other joke about Tickle Me Elmo, Tickle Me Elmo was $40 really, basically, or more. You know, you can have a Tickle Me Elmo and be really cool for a lot less than you can have a Birkin bag. 00:23:26 Melissa: Wow, yeah, that's true. That is true. It's so funny, this conversation just takes me down the whole nostalgic route. Like I'm thinking about my Steve Urkel joke pull doll. Do you remember that one? 00:23:39 Chris: Yeah, yeah, of course. 00:23:41 Melissa: Yeah, so anyways, I'm totally like aging myself right now. I'm like, oh, I had Steve Urkel and I had Popples and all the like. What do you think, you know, nostalgia? Let's talk about that. Because I feel like a lot of marketers use that, you know, in order to kind of like pull forth a certain generation, let's say. And I even feel like at a supermarket, like I'm like, I think they know who their shoppers are with the music. But let's talk about nostalgia. 00:24:09 Melissa: Like, and again, thinking about more quote unquote modern toys, you know, like. And back to like these like electronics, like do you think that it'll be the same sort of calling card, I think is the right phrase? Like when someone starts saying, oh, like, let's say 10 years from now, you know, what's the name of the- Stumble Guys? Like, do you think that people will say like a certain like thing on video games and it'll have the same emotional pull as like Tickle Me Elmo, Popples, or Cabbage Patch? 00:24:41 Chris: It's hard to know. The thing about nostalgia is it's really for adults, right? Nostalgia is for people looking back. When you're three and four, you're not nostalgic for much. You're not remembering much. Maybe you remember your pull ups, right? When you had your pull ups. But you don't, you're not really nostalgic for something because you haven't been around that much. 00:25:03 Chris: The challenge from a toy marketing standpoint is relying on nostalgia to sell toys. Because I mean, yes, there's a certain level of you as a mom had My Little Pony or Littlest Pet Shop or any of those huge hits, Masters of the Universe. And you want to share those with your child. But for it to engage your child's imagination, there has to be something authentic to them. It's not just, mom liked this, so I'm going to like it too. That doesn't really work. 00:25:31 Chris: Look at Barbie and how Barbie's been redefined over the years, because Barbie always reflects the culture at any given time. So in 1959, she could be a fashion model or a bride, right? Pretty much, those are the Barbie options. Today, there are hundreds of careers and there's hundreds of abilities. And Barbie, the Barbie line looks like the world kids are growing up in, just as it did in 1959. It's just a more diverse and broader world with more possibility for girls and women today than it was in 1959. 00:26:08 Melissa: So when it comes to the toy industry, who's actually using their imagination to come up with like what to make for the future? Like, is it a combination of kids and adults? Is it like who's actually imagining like right now, like in the Mattels, et cetera, you know, what's coming down the line like 10 years from now? It's going to be hot and cool. And like, how do you how do you imagine something like that? 00:26:36 Chris: Well, it's hard. I mean, I think I think it's like, you know, my crystal ball usually needs a shot of Windex so I could get a clearer sense. But it's more an art than a science, that's for sure. And it's looking at trends. It's looking at how are kids playing, how are they interacting, how are they socializing, what is fun to them, and what's going on in the culture at large. Because the toy industry always reflects the culture. 00:27:03 Chris: We're always reflecting, because kids, you know, most healthy kids, they aspire to being big. They wanna grow up and they want the things like their parents have. So back in the, you know, in the early 2000s when cell phones came out, you saw tons of preschool cell phones, right? You don't see that so much anymore because the preschoolers have a real cellphone. 00:27:25 Chris: But you see things that will allow them to feel like they are part of the culture and they are growing up into it and that they are older and perhaps more capable than they really are because that's an important imaginative tool to help in the maturation process. 00:27:41 Melissa: That's fascinating. So that's true. It was definitely a lot of like, I don't know, mommy and me things. Like you see them with like a cash register or like a Target cart, right? The plastic little one, right? Cause their parent is shopping at Target. And so I wonder because it's like, there's some habits that as a parent, like maybe we wanna shake off ourselves, but we're inadvertently doing a lot. 00:28:06 Melissa: So like the cellphone one, I'm like, oh God, yeah, mommy has a cellphone and now her child does too. And it's like, how can I stop? And it's a reinforcement, but I'm wondering, okay, so in terms of the future and in terms of toys, have you ever done or seen any sort of things where the mom was playing with the child versus the child was playing by themselves? Like any differences there? 00:28:31 Melissa: Because I would love to just kind of inspire a listener right now to consider the fact that actually getting lost in play with their child can be even more beneficial than just having your child play with a toy to the side and you're doing something completely different. 00:28:52 Chris: I think that is critically important. One of the things that we're talking to parents of Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids. And Gen Alpha was born 2010 to this year. And one of the things that parents talk about is some of the best part of their day is when they're playing with kids. And what I always suggest is that if you're playing with your kid, especially if they're a preschooler, let the child run the play and you respond. Don't tell them, oh, look at this, oh, do that. 00:29:24 Chris: And you don't have to teach, it doesn't have to teach them anything, right? It doesn't have to teach. Kids are going to learn. So really letting that child's imagination drive the experience because, you know, I think every parent has had the experience where your child comes up with something and you go where did that come from? 00:29:45 Melissa: 100%. All the time. 00:29:47 Chris: And it's because they're sponges and they're listening to their absorbing everything and then they're processing it to their childlike brains or their childish brains. So I think that letting the child do that, but being there and being in communication is really important. 00:30:02 Chris: When I was growing up and maybe when you were too, we had three different worlds. We had kid world where no adults came in and the kids were doing that. We had adult world where we weren't allowed, where the parents would do that. And then there was family world, which is dinner and vacations and being yelled at about your grades or whatever that was. 00:30:21 Chris: But those three worlds don't really seem to exist anymore. And parents and kids are much more integrated in one another's lives. I think that's an outcome of COVID. It's actually a very positive outcome from COVID. Because you as mom and dad, have fun with your kids. Come on. It's, again, back to the idea of process rather than outcome. They don't have to become an expert ball player. They don't have to become an expert thing at times. They can actually just learn and play and discover the world and share those discoveries with you. 00:30:51 Melissa: Yeah, I love that. And I think it's an opportunity for someone that has to think a lot in life and feels the stresses of life to kind of let go and just stop thinking and just going with what is. Be present. You know, be totally present. 00:31:12 Chris: Be totally present and just be open to what it is. It's trying not to, as I was saying, it doesn't have to have a definitive outcome. And the one thing I think we've lost track of, often in our culture right now, is the idea of embracing process. It's really okay to make mistakes. It's really okay to try something, as long as you get up and start again. 00:31:36 Chris: I mean, how many times have you, I was talking about, for me, I learned to ski late. And I'm a really mediocre skier. I'm enthusiastic, but I'm not good. And I had somebody who was teaching me and he said, Chris, eventually I was scared. Eventually you're gonna have to point your skis down the hill. So I did it, I fell a lot, I did that, but I was so eager to learn that I'd fall and get up again. 00:32:04 Chris: I had to learn how to get up, but that's the thing that I think is, you know, if you have an idea of where you'd like to go but embrace the process on the way there because who knows what you're going to learn and what you're going to discover. 00:32:16 Melissa: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think that's the key to any goal. It's just you have to really fall in love with the process as you head towards the vision the goal, you know, whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish. And I also love the fact that, you know, as with play it's like there's something that's so pure about it, you know, when left on unmanipulated. 00:32:40 Melissa: It's like as a parent, we might have this desire to like educate our kids up to wazoo with regards to like every educational toy out there and every moment with we're with them, we're teaching them another language or coding or something. But I think, you know, just being open to a little bit, you know, unstructured play and that time with your child has so many benefits. And I think, you know, Chris, the work that you're doing just stay connected to like play as just being fun and okay and positive is is really helpful. Thank you so much for the work that you've done. 00:33:18 Chris: Thanks. I mean, I really do think that it as I mentioned, joy before it really does open the door to being joyful and going, oh, wow, that's fun, you know? I mean, when was the last time you said, oh, wow, that's really fun. 00:33:31 Melissa: 100%. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much, Chris. So where can listeners continue to learn about their favorite toys, about you, about what's up ahead in the toy industry? 00:33:42 Chris: You can come see the toyguy.com. That's probably the best way. And then on Instagram, I'm thetoyguy. So, yeah. And I post a lot of pictures from things like toy fairs and different things and things that are fun for me and that make me giggle. 00:33:58 Melissa: Thank you so much, Chris. Have an awesome one. 00:34:01 Chris: Thank you. 00:34:03 Melissa: My three takeaways for this conversation that you can absolutely take to the bank and apply in your home are, first, this idea that playing with our kids has benefits for our kids, but also for us, especially if you're a super busy mom. It helps put you in the immediate present moment. So that's a big, big perk right there. 00:34:25 Melissa: Second is this idea that it's all about the process as opposed to the final answer. And that's something that I know is hard to think about when you're constantly thinking about what's next in your life. So thinking about play as something that you're doing and it's a process instead of to put together that Lego piece might be a great shift in your thinking and could relieve you of the stress and pressure of getting things right. 00:34:54 Melissa: Second, no, actually my third point here, my third point would be that in terms of the benefits of playing, I hadn't realized how psychologically deep some of these toys touch the minds of our kids. So the simple fact that we are thinking about, you know, working out relationships when you're doing a diorama, which may have been the case for me personally or maybe you're thinking about whether or not you have skills like a superhero, which was something that Chris shared, I just never thought about how psychologically interesting playing with a toy could be. 00:35:32 Melissa: So you might want to reconsider this idea that playing with a toy is just a way to distract your child or keep them focused on something other than breaking things. There could be real psychological value and also something for you to just consider psychological opportunity when it comes to the choices behind the toys we put in front of our kids. 00:36:00 Melissa: So I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Again, this episode was brought to you by my book, Fertile Imagination. I am excited about it. It's a guide for stretching every mom's superpower for maximum impact. Your imagination is your superpower. That is why I had Chris on the show today. I encourage you to check out the show notes where you could actually purchase the book and let me know that you did. I am always available for conversation and any questions. Thank you so much and I appreciate you. And until next Tuesday.

2-10 minute high-performance clips delivered to you Monday & Friday from our top interviews Contact Info: Website: thebusinessmethod.com/ Apple Podcasts: bit.ly/TheBusinessMethod Google Podcasts: bit.ly/TheBusinessMethodGooglePodcasts Spotify: bit.ly/SpotifyTheBusinessMethod Amazon Music: bit.ly/AmazonTheBusinessMethod Transcript:  [00:00:00] Chris: She was born in the segregated south in extreme poverty, one of 11 kids, and she built a billion dollar company. You guys welcome to the high-performance tip number 189. Of our podcast. And today I want to feature Janice Bryant. Howroyd Janice is one of the most inspirational people that I've interviewed out of 500 people.  And what's really amazing about her is that, like I mentioned, she started in a segregated south born in 1952, where there was white people on one side of the neighborhood and black people on the other side of the neighborhood and she was born one of 11 kids in extreme poverty.  Nevertheless, she still made her way to found and build a billion dollar company. And not only that, she was the first black woman to build a billion dollar company.  She stands at the top of the list as the 38th richest woman in the world, and, she talks specifically in this episode, how she gained an abundance mindset and how her family, her parents taught her to have an abundance mindset and to dream. Even though she's in an extremely racist and suppressive environment during her youth for the first 24 years of her life. Let's hop into it with Janice Bryant.  Howroyd.  Janice: I was born in 1952 One of 11 kids, the fourth of 11 kids, same mom, same dad in Tarboro, North Carolina. , , so that can tell you a lot about just what was happening in my community at that time  we were a segregated community, Um, , we were segregated in many ways, not just racially, but racial segregation. offered the segregation of economics and I'm glad you said we were economically poor because we were spiritually rich, quite wealthy if you think of it, and aspirationally we were full. Mom and dad wanted for us the world that they dreamed was possible, but they didn't put boundaries on us about how that could be achieved, meaning they didn't want us to only do the things they thought we should do. Nobody had to be a doctor or lawyer, you know, a candlestick butcher, a baker, a candlestick maker. But they did insist that education would be a platform for that. That was the hard hitting thing in my home growing up. And I never saw anybody outside of a teacher or a preacher who held a professional job who was African American unless I got pictures and stories of them from old print magazines. , there was Essence. Ebony. Essence came later. There was Ebony. There was Sepia. And are you, are you familiar with the Georges? , the family? No, no, no. The Georges were, were the, , porters along trains. Along the rail tracks that ran from south to north on the east coast. And rather than bother to learn John or Fred or Joseph's name, everyone was called George or boy. Okay. Okay. Wow. The George is my, my grandfather was a George. Okay. He hated it. His name was Daniel. He worked that line for many years. And nobody knew his name. , and so, they would bring products and, and, and, , items to us that we couldn't get locally. So nobody was selling black magazines in Tarboro, North Carolina. Black focused magazines. So we'd get Ebony, Jet. Sepia delivered by the George's and everybody waited for the train to come in on the day that the magazines would come and that's where I started to get ideas about the possibility of what a black person could do And a black woman could do . We weren't seeing black people on TV. And that was so big for us. We'd all rush home. What does that got to do with the way I grew up? Everything I grew up with a full faith in what America is and what the world is like, and, um, and could be for me and that I had a place to shape it despite what was going on day to day. And that was the power. And I think the faith that our mom and dad put in front of us,    [00:04:54] Chris : There you haven't you guys, what do you think? Hearing stories like that make our difficulties in 2024 seem incredibly small. And irrelevant. And I would imagine very few listening to the podcast grew up in an environment that has equal or worse than Janice's, but nonetheless hearing a story like that really makes us think that anything is possible. Not only any, not only is anything possible, but, what is important. Is that we focus on the positive side of life. And we surrender to our dreams . And go after them with everything that we have. So, leaving you with that. I want to ask you.  What did you take away from Janice's story? It's a powerful one. If you haven't heard Janice's full episode, I recommend you checking it out. I believe it's episode number 544. , interviewing the 38th richest woman in the world. Janice Bryant. Howroyd. And if you want to make sure you don't miss any of these tips, please subscribe, leave us or view. And share with your friends, see you on the next episode.   

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I sit down with Chantell Preston, CEO of Facilities Management Group. She takes us through her journey of transforming the healthcare industry - from an unexpected start managing facilities to founding Mentis Neuro Rehabilitation. Chantell's strategic moves in positioning her company through the pandemic era offer key leadership lessons. We discuss her transition in fostering trust and respect amongst staff, vital for a positive culture, especially in difficult times. Her reflections on setbacks emphasize emotional readiness for both failures and leadership burdens. Wrapping up on a lighter note of future dreams, from travel adventures to family time, Chantell offers a well-rounded portrait of an impactful leader. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Chantell Preston shares her unexpected entry into the healthcare industry and how it led to her role in developing numerous healthcare facilities across Texas. We discuss Chantell's experience founding and successfully exiting Mentis Neuro Rehabilitation, a company focused on traumatic brain injury patients. Chantell explains her strategic decisions and leadership style transformation during the COVID-19 pandemic, emphasizing the shift from an authoritarian to a collaborative approach. We explore the importance of trust, respect, and open communication in maintaining a positive team culture, especially during challenging times. Chantell recounts the lessons learned from entrepreneurial setbacks, including the emotional toll of difficult business decisions and the significance of building strong relationships. We discuss the tactical choices made to support frontline workers and expand service lines during the COVID-19 pandemic. Chantell reflects on her evolution from a closed-off, authoritative leader to a compassionate and empathetic one, inspired by her business partner's example. We talk about the challenges and liberation of breaking societal norms as a female leader and the importance of achieving work-life integration. Chantell shares her personal dreams of travel and family time, highlighting the difficulty of balancing a busy work schedule with personal aspirations. We discuss the advice Chantell gives to young entrepreneurs, emphasizing the importance of focus, having a supportive team, and being ready to pivot when necessary. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Facilities Management Group GUESTS Chantell PrestonAbout Chantell TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Chantell Preston, CEO of Facilities Management Group. Chantell is a self-described risk taker who emphasizes the importance of establishing trust and respect in building a strong company culture. Chantell, I want to thank you for coming on Building Texas Business. I appreciate you taking the time. Chantell: Thanks, Chris. I appreciate you inviting me to come on. Chris: So let's just kick this off by telling us a little bit about Facilities Management Group, the company you're currently CEO of. Chantell: Sure, so Facilities Management Group. We're really a platform company. We own and operate healthcare facilities throughout Texas. Initially, when I took it on, we had a hospital in Las Vegas, but we divested that and sold that to a local system there, and so now our main facilities are here in the Texas market. Chris: Okay, and I know this isn't your first venture in the healthcare space Tell us a little bit about how you got involved or found yourself being an executive in the healthcare industry. Chantell: Sure, it's kind of an interesting story, chris. I don't think any of us know when we graduate from college where we're going to end up in life, and I can truly tell you I never thought it would be health care. So you know, straight out of school I got a great opportunity to go to work for a small company that was developing ambulatory surgery centers. Didn't know anything about ambulatory surgery centers but I knew the folks that were in the organization. So took the leap of faith and I just wanted to learn every aspect. I felt like if? How could I go out and sell things if I didn't realize or understand how they were operated? So took the opportunity to really dive into the health care and learn both the development aspect as well as the operational aspect. Best thing I ever did. From there just kind of soared, I became very niched in regards to building healthcare facilities. I've built over 65 hospitals in my career, whether they're LTACs, rehabs, full acute care hospitals, linear accelerators. So I just kind of found a niche. I really enjoyed watching something from concept to operations. However, I got to a certain point in my life I decided I didn't want to be a consultant forever. So my previous partner and I started a company called Atlantic Health Group. We were going to be a surgery center company. We realized the market was saturated at that point, so we started a company called Mentis Neuro Rehabilitation. Mentis was assisted living rehabilitation for traumatic brain injury patients. To be honest, we really didn't know much about it when we started. We built an amazing team to operate the company for us and then we realized how much need there was for traumatic brain injury patients, so we continued down that path. I continued to build facilities to generate revenue, to build Mentus, so we didn't have to raise huge capital. So we bootstrapped everything together and we took Mentus from concept to exit in 2015. Chris: Wow. Chantell: So we exited the mid-market. And then comes back to what are you going to do with your life from there? So I really stayed for about a year and realized that just my heart wasn't in it anymore. Things changed. We built such an amazing culture, so really focused on what was the next phase of my life. That's when I ended up taking over facilities management group. One of my partners that was operating the entity got ill and so I stepped up and said I'll take over, and that's when we really developed Facilities Management Group. At that point, we had a lot of individual facilities running independently of each other and we wanted to build a platform company that we could have some synergistic services across all facilities. So that was 2018. And so that was a great ride. I learned a lot. Six months after I took over, covid hit so you can only imagine what happens with the hospital industry when that happens? Chris: Yeah, I'm sure there's. We'll get into that because there has to be a lot of good stories there, but I can't help but notice that, as you told, that is, you talked about being thrown in cold, knowing nothing about the industry healthcare that is but then you found yourself evaluating opportunities for surgical centers and then the mental health, brain injury type of facilities that you mentioned. I want to talk about what type of processes did you go through, and or with your partners, to evaluate the opportunities when you're like, okay, what's next or what else can we do? What are some of the things that you found to be valuable and useful in going through that process, as well as maybe some of the things you wish you hadn't done? Chantell: Sure, Great question, chris. You know, as we all go through our career, we, you know, we try to evaluate things. Everybody looks at things very differently and you know you probably say I'm a calculated risk taker. So, again, I wanted to be able to find a path where, you know, my number one was I wanted to help people. You know, I think most of us get into health care because we have this naivety that we really, you know we can make a change in the world, and I think we do, just maybe different than what we anticipate when we go in. So I think it's really about when I would look at each of the opportunities that came up. You know, again started at a small company and I wanted to learn as much as I could, and then I got recruited from there. Once I found a niche for myself, I didn't really have to go looking for jobs. People would come to me, but then it was like, okay, I learned some hard knocks at the same time as to going to work for folks, because they throw a lot of money at you or they say, oh, we're going to create this amazing environment, and then you get in and you realize this is not really a productive place for me to be and in those situations you just try to take, learn everything you can, you know, gain as much experience and knowledge, because I look at everything as a stepping stone to the next place. So when we, you know, when we started Atlantic, it was kind of an interesting scenario because I had a ton of development partners that I had already established that I was working for as an independent consultant. I didn't really want to be a consultant forever. I wanted to build something, I wanted to have some security. So I actually talked my partner, my business partner, into leaving his organization because he had a skill set that I didn't have. So he was really more around the finance side of things, operationally, and I was really more the development aspect. And so you know, and I was really more the development aspect, and so you know, I think it's really important when people look at their careers, a everything in life is a stepping stone to the next thing. I mean, you have to look at it that way. What can I get out of this particular situation to advance my overall objectives later? Chris: Sure. Chantell: But also who you're getting in bed with and I speak a lot to entrepreneurs. It's really important to pick your partners wisely. And when you say your partners, you know I tell people it's like a marriage. Oh well, we're best friends. We're never going to, you know, get sideways with each other. Well, it is important that when you're going into a partnership, you know even a company is what's it going to look like if we got divorced? I look at everything as it's kind of like a marriage. Chris: No, no, Look, I advise clients all the time into the same thing. You know, be careful, Don't do 50-50 unless you have a good deadline provision. But it is they are. I can attest from being on the litigation side of these things. They are truly business divorces when they go south, and we always tell people it's better to invest up front to getting your documents right. You don't want to think you and your best friends could ever go south, but there's a reason. There's a bunch of law firms and lawyers that stay busy because that's what happens. Chantell: Right, and I was fortunate not to go through that. To be honest, it was just, I was very cognizant and I think when I was younger I didn't realize the value I brought. So I felt like safety was in numbers, right, and sometimes we create an environment around us because it makes us feel protected and then at the end of the day you go, wait a minute, what about me? And so you know again, lessons learned. You know, we also have a tendency, you know, adhd. We're all entrepreneurs. We like to do lots of different things. You know a few mistakes that we made along the way was we started getting into things that we didn't know too much about, because it was the shiny penny oh this is great, let's go do this and then, oh my God, we would either lose a ton of money. You know a lot of headaches. We didn't stay focused on our core business and it kind of school of hard knocks a little bit. It took us a little bit of time to realize that, hey, we need to solely focus on, you know, our core business, mentis, and let's stop messing around with all this other stuff that seems like it's fun and exciting. Let's stay focused on our core business until we reach. You know what we were hoping to accomplish. Chris: That's great advice. The discipline of staying focused on your core and what you do best can't be overstated. So many people lose their way because of the distractions, and you're right. They end up costing more money than you expected and taking more of your time away, and it takes it away from your core, so then it suffers. Chantell: That's right, and people don't realize. You know, time is the one thing we'll never get back in life, and so if you're looking and focusing your attention on something else, what are you losing at your core business? And I see a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of people oh, I want to go do this and this. Again, we did it Not successful, but we did it. And so now, when I'm looking at things and where do I want to go next, it's where do I want to spend my time, knowing that if I spread myself too thin or too many things, I won't be as successful as I want to be. Chris: Yeah, that's great advice. I hope people are taking notes on that. So let's go back. You kind of left us a minute ago taking over the reins at FMG, right before COVID hits. Obviously, you have to manage through that in the healthcare space. Take us back to that time. What were some of the things that you learned, having to manage through such an uncertain period of time? Chantell: When I took over FMG there was a couple things that identified very quickly. Again, they were all running as independent facilities and there was no collaboration and really the culture there was no culture. You know, in my previous organization with Mentis and a lot of the companies I've been involved with, culture was huge. You know, you wanted people to want to be there and fortunately we were able to quickly build a culture that we felt and it was actually proven true through COVID that people wanted to be there. You know I was very visible in our facilities. I wanted people to know me, I wanted to hear what they had to say. As a new CEO coming in, you know, tell me how can we help you do your job more effectively? How can we help you be happier? You know, looking at things in a different perspective, other than you need to be here nine to five every day, do exactly what we want, right? You know, when COVID hit, the uncertainty of everything I mean we were. Some of my facilities were emergency rooms at the time, some of them were hospitals. You know we had limited staff, we had limited services. You know, when COVID hit it was really interesting because with the unknown of nobody really understanding the magnitude of what was happening. It was decisions on a day to day basis. Right, you know, everything was a crisis every single day. It was a very time for me, as a leader, to figure out how could I continue to hold on to this culture that we had built so we didn't lose staff, right? So, but also giving our staff the ability to take a break every once in a while, even though we didn't really have folks to fill in for them, in for them. So it was a time that we really had to bond together. And again, me being in our facilities during that time, even though I really couldn't do much to help, but at least showing my face, saying hey, I'm here with you and I'm standing beside you, especially on some of those hard decisions, I think made a big difference for our success. Chris: Yeah, you raised an interesting point there because first of all, I mean I it's been four years and maybe the memories start to fade but health care frontline workers, right, that was ground zero for the response. So I can only imagine the taxing environment for your employees. Most CEOs can be there shoulder to shoulder with their employees and maybe actually get in, you know, step in on the manufacturing line or pick up something and help out in the shop, and if you're not a licensed physician or a PA or a nurse, you can't right, you couldn't do the work, you could just be there to encourage them. Chantell: That had to be a challenge. You know you're right, because we just want to jump in and help and but there was a lot of things that what I could do and again you know, spirits high, helping clean, I mean there was, you know, again it wasn't above anybody. We had to kind of all throw hands in, all hands on deck, to help out in any aspect. And so we did what we could to try to motivate and try to help give people some breaks and give them the resources that they needed, and that was a big thing. That we did was just trying to get the resources that they needed, and so it was a trying time, but again we came across. You know, as a CEO, I wanted to be able to expand our service lines because we knew what was coming. And you know, after we got kind of settled in and we realized this was going to be a longer, a longer path than we thought, we converted all of our ERs into hospitals so we could provide additional service lines. So there was things that we could do on the strategic and on the management side where we weren't necessarily in the trenches, but yet it provided our staff some amazing resources that they needed. Chris: So you talked about culture and how important it is. It doesn't have to necessarily be at FMG, but just in your role as a leader. What are some of the things that you have done to try to build that positive, sounds like collegial team environment type of culture at the various organizations you've been? I mean, is it kind of the same playbook every time, or you know? If so, what is it? And if it's changed, how do you adapt? Funny question I'm just going to. I'll give you a quick story. You know? If so, what is it? And if it's changed? Chantell: how do you adapt? Funny question. I'm just going to give you a quick story. You know there's a lot of people that have been with me for the last 10, over 10 years, so they've seen me kind of develop as a better leader as I've gotten a little bit older. So in my old days, I have to tell you I was probably very authoritarian, very dictatorship it's my way, no way. And leadership, it's my way, no way. And then, as I've gotten a little bit older and through you know my role at FMG I realized I can't continue to lead like this. This is not how to get the most productivity out of my staff, and so I changed a lot in regards to how to build a culture. And so now you know people will tell you these are the four principles I use authenticity, I want to build trust and respect. You know again, you know I'm going to be very direct with individuals. I don't beat around the bush and I think anybody that knows me knows that. Collaboration I want people to have the ability to have a say. I want them to take ownership. You know used to as my way. You know we're going to do things my way. Now it's let talk about it Because, in today's world, I want my staff members they're there for a reason and that's to come together in a path or a process that everyone feels like is going to be beneficial to the organization. Now, it doesn't mean I won't give them my thoughts, but again, that collaboration and that belonging, I want them to feel like they're part of the team. Whether you and I both know, in an organization everyone's valuable and I want everyone to realize how valuable each member is and where they fit within that organization. Authenticity, trust, collaboration yeah, those are communication too, you know. Chris: Oh, for sure. Chantell: We used to be like we wouldn't tell anybody anything, you know, just say here's our goals, to go do them. Now we really talk about why you know and really have those hard conversations about this is you know the company. And when we went through COVID I know everybody's tired of hearing the COVID stories, but when we went through COVID, you know we would tell them hey, this is why we're doing this. And it wasn't just oh, they're causing us all these headaches. You know they're pushing stuff down. No, it was. We're doing it because of X, y and Z, and that made people appreciate it a little bit more, versus us just shoving things down. Chris: Yeah. Chantell: And so I think communication is a big one as well. Chris: Couldn't agree more. I mean, I think you know, at the end of the day, all those things sound really good and are important, but if you're not communicating effectively, it won't matter. That's right. So, something that occurred to me, I want you to talk a little bit about being innovative, because I know for sure at FMG, because I just know enough about the story that in the middle of all that y'all did some pretty innovative things that other competitors of yours weren't doing. That required some really quick on the fly decisions to get some innovative things going. So tell us about that. It helped the patients and it helped your facility. Chantell: Sure, you know, one of the perks of dealing with a smaller organization is we can make quick decisions. So when all of this was happening, you know we did have to get innovative in regards to how we were running tests, how we were treating the patients, what we were doing when we couldn't find patients higher level of care. So there was a lot of innovation that we did, you know, whether it was streamlining our processes, whether it was, you know, the equipment that we were bringing in to try to mitigate certain things. I mean, there was a lot of stuff that we did that if we weren't going through that time, we probably wouldn't have been forced to do so quickly, if that makes sense. And so there was some stuff that we tried to do in regards to you know, I'm trying to think of some specifics. A lot of it's around the labs and the testing side of making sure that our patients are being treated in-house versus having to send things out. I mean, we just tried to do everything we could to control our own destiny. Advert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslik, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermiller.com, and thanks for listening to the show. Chris: Well, for example, I know one of the things you did was very quickly developed an app so patients could schedule an appointment that you didn't have before. Chantell: Yeah, that's correct. We tried to do some things so people would mitigate being around other, you know, possibly infected COVID people. So, yes, we did do some things to try to limit exposure during that time, just because, again, we didn't know what was going to happen long-term. Chris: So I guess one thing that people may not know about you that we want to talk about is, in addition to this professional you know journey you've described, you do a lot and have done and continue to do a lot where you advise other entrepreneurs. I want to ask you a little bit what are some of the kind of the key nuggets of advice that you tend to provide, and maybe what are some of the mistakes you see young entrepreneurs making that you try to correct before what still can be corrected, I guess Sure, it's kind of interesting. Chantell: The world has changed a lot in regards to entrepreneurship. You know, in our day it was just work your ass off. You know 24-7 and just try to climb the ladder. You know now, with some things that have happened, you know, with technology, sometimes they have this misperception that it's just going to be easy, it's going to be rainbows and unicorns all the time. It's not. There was many nights we'd sit at the bar going, holy shit, how are we going to make payroll? So I mean again, I think it's bringing that true realism back into their world of hey, you're not going to go get a CPT code for a device that doesn't exist in six months. It just doesn't work like that. And I think sometimes these young entrepreneurs are given almost bad counsel because they think that things are just so easy. Well, so-and-so did it, so I can do it. I see that a lot. I do get the opportunity to speak to some of the entrepreneurship classes up at UT and I do probably focus more on the negatives versus the positives, because I've always learned more from my failures and my successes. Some of the things of hey look, be focused. You know you don't have to have everything figured out, but have a pretty good path of where you're headed. You know, and surround yourself with the folks that are going to build you up, not break you down. You know, as an investor as well. I look at who's the team. If you've got a good jockey, I'm going to go ahead and support you. Having that right team in place is so critical and you want it to be more than just one individual. You know you want to make sure if they get hit by a bus, somebody else is right there ready to take the company. So I think that there's just little things that you know. I would probably give some insight to the entrepreneurs of you know, again, you're going to have good times and bad times. The bad times will come and go. But again, being willing to pivot If something's not working, don't wait too long to pivot or to reevaluate maybe certain aspects of the organization. Chris: Okay, so you brought it up, but I was going to. You said you learn more from your failures than successes, so tell us a story it's story time now, chantel a failure or setback that you've encountered, experience that you survived because you're sitting here today, and what that learning was and how it made you better. Chantell: So we talked a little bit earlier about how we got a little bit outside of our wheelhouse of oh, let's go do some different things, because we, you know, have been very successful at what we were doing. We were trying to purchase a hospital group out of bankruptcy. We thought, oh, how hard can this be? We can run organizations, we can run ASCs. Why can't we do this? It was a very eye-opening experience because when we got in there, we hadn't really had a path forward as to what we were going to do or how we were going to do it. It was just like, oh, we'll figure it out as we go. We also didn't think about other things that could come in and really impact us that we couldn't control. So we had purchased, we were in the process of purchasing this group, they were in bankruptcy, and then we had a flood. Well, we had just finished remodeling a hospital here in town. The flood came in. It flooded the hospital. At that point we were kind of at a place where there was not much more we could do. It was a horrible time to have to tell all those individuals that worked so hard with us that we were going to have to let them all go and you know lessons learned. You know there was positives in there because I remember the day we were getting ready to tell these poor individuals we were going to fire them the night before. You know we probably drank too much and you know it was a very emotional situation because I'd worked hand in hand with these individuals for so long. Chris: Sure. Chantell: And I remember having to tell them in tears I mean, you know, I know we're not supposed to be emotional, but these are these people's livelihoods. I was emotional, I you know I was not in a great place and I remember, after that happened, one of the the janitors came up to me and she said don't worry, chantel, we're going to be okay. But are you going to be okay? Chris: Oh, wow. Chantell: And I realized, you know, even through this failure, we had built such great relationships with these individuals and made them feel valued in so many ways that you know again, that's probably a really good example of learning myself of how important it is for relationships you know and building that trust as a leader. Chris: Well, to what to point you made just a minute ago. There is emotion in business. For sure, people try to carve it out and maybe for decades that's been the mentality, but it's ignored the reality that there's emotion in business and you're affecting people's lives when you are hiring them and when you're firing them. So you know people that lose sight of that are missing the boat, and I think how you manage the emotion in the business is one thing, but don't make the mistake of thinking it's not there. Chantell: No for sure, and you know, again, my old days I would have never showed, you know, a whole lot of emotion. I will tell you, though, being authentic with people just builds more trust. And look, some people say I'm very challenging to work with. You know, because I'm very specific, I'm very direct, but you know where you stand with me at all times, you know, and I had a situation last year where I had to let someone go, and it was. I mean, I really love this person as an individual, but this just wasn't the right place for them, and I tried very hard to mentor, to get him to that place, and I just couldn't, and it was very emotional to have to say, hey look, this is not, you know, the best place for you. The greatest return was six months later. They contacted me and said thank you so much. The best thing you ever did was have that conversation, and now I found a place where I love I'm being respected, and so, again, I think we all have emotion. It's as you mentioned, it's how you use it. It's okay for people to realize that you're human. I mean you know I'm human, I mean, and so I have emotions, and there's people I like and, again, you are impacting their lives and they're impacting yours. Chris: For sure, and I mean I have a number of stories similar to the one you just shared, where you run into an employment situation that's not working. You, knowing that it's not working, have to make a decision, expend a ton of emotional energy over it, worried about it. My experience has been, I think I can say, almost every time, despite that hard conversation, that person ends up in a better place because it's where they were meant to be. And we say this all the time. We're not trying to be the largest organization. We just want to be the best for those that fit with our mission and what we're passionate about and our values. And doesn't mean we're right for everybody and that doesn't make people a bad person. Chantell: That's right. Chris: There there's another organization where they're going to fit. Chantell: And and, and she did say to me she goes thank you, because I always knew where I stood with you and thank you for always being very direct. You know and that's the other thing people hide from those conversations. I'd rather have those conversations, you know, leading up to it. Look, here's the expectations. Let's talk about how you can get there, and I'm always happy to mentor and advise, but at some point you have to say, hey, look, this just isn't the right place. Chris: Right. Chantell: And so, and that's OK too. Chris: So let's talk a little bit about as you built these companies. You've had to have key stakeholders and relationships with them that are part of the success, that's vendors, customers. Let's talk about what are some of the things that you've learned that have helped to kind of build, nurture and grow those types of strategic relationships, if you will. Chantell: Sure, most of the people that I still work with, I've worked with for many years and I think you know I tell people all the time my integrity is the only thing that I really is mine in this world. My kids have everything else, but my integrity is mine. I think it's really being fair with people. You know I'm loyal to a fault, but I'm also again, I don't want to say high maintenance, but I have great expectations of people as well. And so if you look at a lot of the vendors, you know, again, they've been with me forever because I'm very loyal to them, I'm very fair, I'm very direct and they're good to me. Chris: Right. Chantell: You know, and I think as I've gotten older I had never realized the importance of relationships and how you have to be very intentional with giving and taking Right Right. But I also know with my vendors, they do a great job for me. I'm going to, I want to give them out to everybody else. I mean, I'm going to drive business their direction. And so I think that you know, with the stakeholders, a lot of people make a mistake of. You know everyone's got to win. You know that's just the reality. There's an abundance for everyone in life. You know, one of my best friends is a direct competitor of us. We laugh all the time. We can't be friends in public, but we can be friends behind closed door. But there's an abundance for everyone in life and so if you treat people like that and you're fair, I think you know you win, everyone wins. Chris: Everyone wins, and that's the thing I think finding the way where everyone can win, sure, and there's the value in kind of reciprocity, right, when someone does treat you well, that you obviously should treat them well in return. But have that be a lesson how you should be treating others that you're coming into contact with, right, absolutely, absolutely. So you mentioned this earlier because I like to talk about leadership style and you've kind of alluded to some of your evolution. Any more you can share kind of on how you view your style, how you feel like it's evolved and maybe some of the things that have helped you make those steps to kind of grow from the command and control to the more collaborative leader. Chantell: I think self-awareness, I think when we're younger, we think we're invincible and we do no wrong. I think self-awareness, I think when we're younger, we think we're invincible and we do no wrong. I think self-awareness has been critical for me, just for personal growth, right. So I also realized, you know, I wasn't getting the most out of the people and I realized that how I came in impacted everybody around me, if that makes sense. Chris: Sure. Chantell: So when I walk in and I'm closed off, everyone's going to scatter. If I walk in and I'm in a great mood and I say hello to everybody, your energy that you put out, you get back. And so I think, as I've gone through my career path, I've realized that, getting more and really I had a great partner, business partner, that he would talk to everyone. I wondered how he got anything done some days because he was just the most jovial guy that loved everyone and he would sit and listen to people for hours and I used to say I don't know how you do this. Isn't this driving you crazy? You know, I just I want, I don't want to know what time it is, I want to know, yeah, I want to know what time it is. I don't want to know how to build the clock. And I realized how much everyone respected him because he not only cared about them on the job, he cared about the whole person. Right, and people felt that. And I finally asked him one day. I said can you teach me how to be like that? Because I want people to realize I do care. I may not come across and show it, and so I that's how I kind of evolved, of taking that time and realizing ten minutes out of my day of sitting down and really focusing and being present with people, how much more they wanted to be there, how much more productive they were, and so it's really again being the leader that you have to establish boundaries. I'm not saying you, you know, let everybody circumvent their ladder, but having the ability to really show how much you care for those individuals and also what's going to put them in a position to be a better employee, right, right. And look, I went through a big thing with my team about working from home. Okay, I hate working from home, ok. Chris: I hate working from home. I'm just going to tell you that I like the collaboration. I like everyone in the office. You know that you're in good company. There was literally an article in the online Houston Business Journal this morning about that topic and how everything is swinging back to five days a week in the office. Chantell: That's right, and it was a big fight in my office about that and I finally said, okay, let's compromise, because I realized that some of them were driving an hour both ways, okay. So Mondays and Fridays we have home days. Tuesday, wednesday, thursday, we're all in the office. So again, I met them where they wanted to be and how could they be most effective. And I realized, having that time at home, where they didn't have 5,000 people walking in their offices every day, they were more productive. And so again it's you know. You know you asked me a specific question about how I've changed. I mean, I've really come, you know, 180 in regards to who I was many years ago versus how I am now. Chris: Well, and what I hear you saying is there was an evolution and development in your leadership style that started to focus on and demonstrate humility and empathy, absolutely, you know, going back to kind of the work remote thing. I think those things, what you've got going on, can be successful because you have to start with why are we here? It's the why around the company, and we have to all agree that the company has to survive in order for any of us to have any benefits. That's right, right and so what's that going to take? And then where can there be some compromise around? You can't sacrifice productivity and you can't sacrifice delivery of services or you won't have the business. Right and right. It's really to me, getting clear around that, communicating, that we talk about communication with clarity and really everyone understanding the why absolutely, and I'll just we'll talk about the elephant in the room also being female, I mean. Chantell: So in my younger days I thought in order for me to gain respect, I had to be that authoritative bitch. You know. Basically Because that's what society told me, you know in order for me to be able to play in a man's world, I had to really be that person. You know, as my career, and I got to a point where I didn't need anybody's approval or permission. You know, I realized, got to a point where I didn't need anybody's approval or permission I realized, wait a minute, I can be my authentic self. I can be compassionate, I can be empathetic and I can still be a damn good leader at the same time. Chris: That had to be liberating. Chantell: It was very liberating, and I try to instill this with a lot of the women that I talk to now. It's okay to be who we are. Let's use our innate qualities that make us such great individuals in our professional lives. You know, and I mean again, people say I'm aggressive. That's okay, I'll take it and I can be, but it enables me to also utilize what I need to build the culture and the team that I want, and so I think that's also been, you know, the last 30 years. It's also changed a lot, you know, as a society, but that's also breaking the societal norms of, oh, I have to be a certain way in order to be a good leader. I don't think that's true anymore. Chris: I agree with you Again. I think there's been an evolution in how we think about business, corporate America, whatever. And again I go back to as long as we realize that there are certain fundamentals that, no matter what is going on, we have to do for the business to survive. Then we can look on the fringes and go okay, where can we make maybe some things a little more accommodating. Chantell: Exactly so. Chris: I like to talk about those a little bit. So what are some of the strategies that you've employed to kind of and you mentioned being a mom, being a leader, being an entrepreneur to help, not necessarily balance, but be successful in both your business and personal life? Chantell: Great question. Here's my theory behind that. There's no such thing as balance. Chris: That's why I didn't use the word. Chantell: I call it work-life integration. I can't say I've figured it all out, chris. I'll just be honest and I think it's being very intentional with your time. I used to let a lot of people control my time, meaning, you know, I was always willing to meet whenever they were available. I was willing to move around things because it was important to them. I've now really been intentional about taking control back of my own time, and that's time for myself in the mornings, that's time for my kids, but that's time for work too, and so I think we all have to establish boundaries. Because I used to work 24 seven. I'd be at dinner. I mean, my five-year-old used to say mom, please put the phone down, and I would thought I was that important that I had to respond to that email, right. That second, because that's how important I was. It's not true, and I think that really establishing you know we also try to get through our entire things to do list every day what are the top three priorities I really need to get done today? Okay, let's focus on those. First, because we all know once everybody starts coming to the office, you're going to get blindsided 5,000 different ways. So really prioritizing maybe three items that I need to get done that day and then all the rest of it's great if I do, but if I don't, it's okay to walk out of there at 4.30 to go to my kids' game, right. And so I'm really trying to be intentional with my time. I'm not going to say I'm successful all the time. Chris: You know, but I've really tried with that. You have to keep in mind no one's perfect right, but I think, if you have, those intentions, that thoughtfulness about how you're going to approach your day, and I totally agree with the work-life integration. I think that's a much better way to think about it than balance, I mean. Chantell: I've learned you can have it all. You just can't have it all at the same time. So, everything in life is about a give and take. It's about you know you're sacrificing something for something else. And so it's again where are you in your life, what's important to you? I mean, I waited late in life to have children, you know, and now I'm going to enjoy my kids. So again, doesn't mean I'm sacrificing my professional, but I do amazing conversation. Chris: I really appreciate it. I want to kind of turn to some less business topics that I like to cover with all my guests. So what was your first job? Chantell: My first job. I worked at Mount Asia when I was in high school. I loved scooping ice cream and I loved hosting birthday parties for small kids. Chris: Okay, so that was it. I was going to ask what Mount Asia was. It's that golf off I-10. Chantell: So yes, that was it. I was going to ask what Mountasia was. It's that golf off I-10. Chris: So, yes, that was my first job. I love it. Do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Chantell: Tex-Mex, of course. Chris: All right. And if you could take a sabbatical for 30 days, where would you go? What would you do? Chantell: Oh gosh, A sabbatical for 30 days. Chris: Does that exist I? Chantell: don't know. I think I would really just like to travel the world. You know, I spent so much time working I would never take more than two days off at a time. I never got to see a lot of the world, and so I think it would probably just grab my kids and just embrace a great trip with my family. Chris: That sounds great. Yeah, pick a spot and go enjoy it Absolutely. Very good. Well, again, this has been great. Thank you for taking the time to share your story Lots. Special Guest: Chantell Preston.

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I chat with Mike Snavely, CEO of Phunware. Mike details Phunware's evolution from a mobile development agency into a thriving SaaS company delivering high-ROI apps to hotels and healthcare providers. Hear how shifting culture from rigid control to empowering autonomous teams with accountability revived success. Key strategic maneuvers included trimming the workforce judiciously and securing capital patiently. Timely decisions breathe new life into businesses' surfaces repeatedly. We delve into crafting a trusting, candid culture. Difficult conversations are promptly addressed and failures learned foster innovation and resilience. I share that I founded such an environment at a former startup. Mike's unique hobby of creatively mapping dream destinations blends work wisdom with life's pleasures, crafting an episode uplifting attendees' strategies and spirits. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Mike Snavely explains the evolution of Phunware from a mobile solution development agency to a SaaS company that specializes in customized mobile apps for hotels and healthcare institutions. We discuss the strategic decisions and cultural shifts necessary during the transition to new leadership at Phunware, including capital injection and reshaping the balance sheet for growth. Mike highlights the move from a command-and-control culture to one that champions autonomy and accountability, emphasizing the importance of empowering team leaders. We explore the significance of building a leadership team grounded in trust, accountability, autonomy, and candor, and how these principles contribute to a positive organizational culture. Mike shares his personal career journey, detailing his long-standing experience in mobile technology and his eventual rise to the CEO position at Phunware. We examine how Phunware fosters a culture of appreciation and collaboration through a Slack channel called Momentum, which recognizes and celebrates employee contributions. Mike talks about balancing professional obligations with personal passions, including the importance of prioritizing family and maintaining a positive trajectory in both areas. We discuss the importance of in-person engagement for building and maintaining key relationships with stakeholders, despite the trend toward virtual interactions. Mike reflects on past experiences and learnings, including the value of having prompt and honest conversations to avoid delays in decision-making and mitigate potential failures. We delve into Mike's hobby of pinning dream travel destinations on Google Maps and how this practice turns travel planning into an immersive and memorable adventure. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Phunware GUESTS Mike SnavelyAbout Mike TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In today's episode, you will meet Mike Snavely, ceo of Funware. In building and maintaining key relationships with your stakeholders, mike shares his opinions on why there is no substitute for being in person to engage on a human level. Mike, I want to welcome you to Building Texas Business and thank you for taking time to come on the show with me. Glad to be here. Thanks for the invitation. So, as the CEO of Funware, let's start by just orienting the listeners to what is Funware and tell us what the company's known for. Mike: Sure so. Funware is a 15-year-old publicly traded company based in Austin, Texas. We build mobile experiences that help hotels and healthcare institutions engage their guests and patients while they're on premises in ways that drive satisfaction and monetization. Chris: Very interesting. So you said the company started I guess in the early 2000s. Mike: Then it would have been in 2009. The company started. It was private for the first 11 or so years of its existence and then we went public via SPAC transaction in 2000. I believe it was 20. Chris: Okay, and it sounds like a fairly niched focus for the company. How did it come to be that the company, I guess, was so focused on kind of those two industries and providing that type of, I guess, service to those customers? Mike: Well, originally it wasn't. So over 15 years, you might imagine, there's been an evolution in the focus of the company, and so the company in 2009 was really more of a mobile solution development agency. So some of the biggest brands you know in the world really selected Funware back in the timeframe to build some of their first mobile apps in the app store. So companies like Fox, the NFL, the Sochi Olympics, wwe, a number of airports and so on were spending a lot of money to build their first mobile application and then to develop their first mobile audience. For lots of reasons and that was two years after the iPhone was introduced. It was actually before the iPad was introduced and so obviously there's a lot of evolution of consumer expectations when it comes to engaging on mobile, and those brands were spending a lot of money in the early comes to engaging on mobile, and those brands were spending a lot of money in the early days to build their first mobile presences. That's evolved over time, and so agencies are really not, they really don't drive the valuation that a SaaS company does, and so we've, over time, evolved into becoming a SaaS company. So we license our technologies. We'll essentially build an app, configuring it for the customer, launch it into the app store and then generate license fees off that app for as long as it exists and is available for download. That's a much better valuation model because typically when our customers get involved with us they stick around. Our retention rate is very high because we drive a positive ROI. So we've kind of followed the evolution of mobile from really high investment work for hire, boutique agency-like development all the way through today where we charge between 50 and $150,000 a year for a given property, whether it's a hotel or a hospital, to have their own mobile app in the app store, to have their own brand in front of their users or guests and then ultimately to develop that one-on-one relationship with that guest or patient in a way that drives repeat business and satisfaction and additional monetization. Chris: That's fascinating. Now you mentioned retention rate. What do you which obviously is very important for success of a company, especially like yours what do you attribute that successful retention rate to? Mike: Well, we do good work and I can make available to you a list and you could even put it in the podcast if you'd like of the apps that we build, or some of the apps that we build. They're beautiful apps. So, number one, we do really high-quality work that all of our customers are proud to have their name on. And then, number two, we drive ROI, plain and simple. For a dollar they put into our solutions, they get between $5 and $50 back, depending on who they are and the specifics of their business. And you know, if I could give you a machine that would, you put a dollar bill in, you get a five or a 50 back out. You would say how many dollar bills can I put in there? Chris: Yeah, no, no, kidding, right Well. I mean, but fundamentally, you mentioned at least you know two fundamental things that is key to customer retention. That's one provide good service. If you're in the service industry, it starts with providing good service and I think an outcome of that is your customer sees a valuable return on the investment for your service. Those are not unique to software but for any kind of service type business right, exactly, that's right. Let's talk a little bit about your. So you're the CEO. The company was founded by others than yourself. How did you come, I guess, to work at Funware and I know just a little bit that you've had this is like your second stint there but give us a little background on your connection to the company and how it was you became the CEO. Mike: Yeah, sure enough. So I've really made a career of pursuing technology trends. So I'm kind of an old guy so I've been in business for a long time. But I started off in offline marketing technologies, sending out snail mail and running telephone centers. Then I evolved into social marketing with a startup in Austin, texas. I then got into mobile and I've been in mobile really kind of on and off ever since. Mobile's a big deal because you've got a device that knows who you are and knows where you are, you tell it all your secrets. It really is an indispensable. It's become an indispensable tool. And so I've really made kind of a career over the last shoot 15 years at this point in mobile. And so I was originally with my first stint in mobile was with a little mobile application development boutique in Austin called Mutual Mobile. That was 2008, 9, 10, 11 timeframe Did something else and then I was recruited to come to Funware by somebody who had worked for me at Mutual Mobile and I said look, we're building out this platform company. We're very interested in having somebody who can really help to drive revenues. Would you be interested in joining? So that in 14, I joined Funware for the first time and I came to run the software business. So I was responsible for all revenues for the software business of Funware from 14 through 16 or so, got to know the company, got to really understand the technologies Actually, a number of the people who were there then are still with the company. Then I went off, worked at a Silicon Valley startup and did a couple of other things, couple of other things. And then, when the founding CEO left in 23, they hired a guy that I had worked with at Mutual Mobile back in the day as the new CEO and he said look, mike, I know that you're great at building businesses on the revenue side. Would you like to come and be my CRO, as I'm CEO of Funware? And he said I'll make it worth your while. So I said no a couple of times and then eventually I said yes. Well, this was September of last year that I rejoined the company and 30 days in the board said look, you know, what we really need is somebody with sales DNA at CEO. Let's try that again. Easy for me to say CEO role. So, mike, would you like to step in as CEO? So I actually I had a buddy who brought me back to be a CRO and then wound up taking this job. We're still friends, we still talk all the time and he was very supportive of that move. But a long story short, I think that the company for a time kind of lost its way in the simple fact of selling, servicing accounts and driving revenues, and that's something I've had the good fortune to develop pretty good skill at, and so now I'm the CEO and I'm going to tell you I think the E in CEO stands for extra. Everything about it is extra, but it really is the best job I've ever had and I'm really enjoying it. I still spend a lot of time working with customers, selling, identifying strategic partnerships and that kind of thing, because I enjoy it, I feel like I'm good at it and it's absolutely critical to positioning the company for growth and valuation, which is exactly my job. Chris: There you go, so let's talk a little bit about that. What are some of the things that you do to build and maintain relationships with those partners, customers, strategic relationships that you think someone listening might learn? Mike: from. Well, it's funny, there's been a real trend away from in-person, and so you and I are meeting today on Zoom. Our business, funware, is essentially 100% virtual at this point, and what I find is there's no substitute for hopping on a plane and going to see somebody, breaking bread with them, getting to know them as a person, understanding what it is they're trying to accomplish, what their hopes and dreams are, what their fears are. Once you get to that point and really just kind of understanding them as a person, and then exposing yourself as a person and say, look, you know, this is what I'm trying to accomplish, mr and Ms, partner or prospect, and really kind of, you know, engaging on a human level, which you know is a whole lot easier for sitting across the desk from somebody, and that's that to me, is is where I spend a lot of my time. I do invest a lot of time in in person, you know, spending time with customers, prospects, partners and the rest of it, and I really just don't think there's much of a substitute for that. Chris: Couldn't agree more. I think that's how, really, until the pandemic, it's how business got done in person. I don't think anything's changed here. I think, especially these days, I think it says so much more that you take the time to do that when you could otherwise, yeah, do a Teams or Zoom call or whatever, and just the human interaction I mean. As humans, I think we're meant to be together, right and interact, and I think that just fosters the relationship. So great advice there. Keeping on that kind of theme you've come back in not in an easy economic time, so let's talk a little bit about managing through kind of some economic uncertain, rising interest rates and all the stuff that's out there in the news. Let's talk about kind of what are some of the things you've done to stay focused and keep your people focused on driving the business forward? Mike: Sure enough. Well, there are some benefits and some drawbacks to being a public and trading company. Of course One is access to the capital markets. That's a benefit, and we certainly have the ability to draw capital out of the markets in ways that don't require us to be as susceptible to excuse me, the interest rate environment, but that doesn't mean that our customers aren't susceptible to that environment. And so we've had to do some things. Selling into hospitality and healthcare, I mean, we're typically selling into pretty big organizations and they have a little bit of a buffer, I suppose, from the ebbs and flows of the economy, particularly when you look at luxury hospitality. I mean, COVID aside, luxury hospitality has really been on a growth tear because of the generation of a lot of wealth on the part of a lot of people and they're wanting to spend it on high-quality experiences. But that doesn't mean that we don't have to be creative from time to time when it comes to pricing a deal or generating terms that are acceptable to the customer. They can digest, they can maybe capitalize the expense as opposed to turning into an OPEX expense and that kind of thing, and certainly we've had to be creative there. When I first took on the CEO role. The company was having a little bit of financial trouble and you could read in our public filings all about it. But, long story short, we were having problems with access to capital and I had to work with my CFO and others you know capital partners to really inject some capital into the company from the market in ways that allowed us, you know, the ability to move forward without paying a lot of interest, frankly. So we were able to kind of reshape the balance sheet in a way that puts us in a great spot for growth today Smaller companies I can only imagine what it must be like if you're dealing with debt financing, distinct from capital financing, and what some of the challenges there must be. We had to make some hard decisions in connection with the recapitalization of the company that had to do with people, in large part because that's our number one expense and those are hard things to do, and I spent many a sleepless night, you know, because I had to do some of those things. But the fact of the matter is that most companies don't cut fast enough and they don't cut deep enough because of those reasons, and it feels terrible, but preserving the company and giving ourselves the ability to go forward and thrive is really kind of the job for the shareholders. Chris: Yeah, and yeah, I agree. I think, regardless of the size of the company, making those people decisions are extremely difficult because, again, we went back to in person and it's human and these people have been with you typically and but it's what they say, right, it is when you have to make the hard cuts, you have to cut muscle and those can be challenging decisions. On the flip side of that, sure, as you come into the CEO role, you are either have or still in the process of building your team. What are some of the things that you do? Processes maybe you've created to help you identify the right people to surround yourself with to further the mission and strategies of the company. Mike: Well, there are two non-delegable duties that the CEO has, in my belief. Number one it's setting the strategy of the company. So we're going to be a SaaS company serving these markets, we're going to drive toward these margins, we're going to deliver in this way, and these are the things that are important for the strategy of the business. Number two is the culture of the business, and so I can't hire somebody to give me a culture. I've got to work with the company to create the culture that we want, and so I'll give you a little bit of a story there. So I have a lot of respect for the fellows who founded the company, a lot of respect for them, because they built something that I now have the good fortune to run and take to the next level. But there was a lot of. They were literally army guys, and there was a lot of army DNA in the company. Now that there's nothing wrong with that, there's nothing at all wrong with that, and the company was successful for a number of years, but and the culture that was built was one of command and control, because that's what the army is Right. Chris: Well, it's not. I'll just interrupt it. That's also not atypical of kind of startup mentality. Right, it's dominant kind of leadership. Got to get it done, got to get this off the ground. Mike: Yep, dominant leadership plus the military background equaled very much a command and control structure, a bit of a cult of personality around the founding CEO, and all of that, you know, paid great dividends. For a long time, I could not be any more different from the founding CEO. I'm not an army guy, you know. And so one of the first things I did when I took on the job is I said look, you know, you know if you're the vice president of sales or you're the vice president of, you know of product or delivery or deployments or whatever it is. You're the CEO of your own business and I'm not going to tell you what to do. I'm going to give you an objective and I'm going to give you the flexibility and the support to go and achieve that objective. You need people. You get people. You need investment. You get investment. But your accountability is to go and run your portion of the business as if you were the CEO. I'm not going to micromanage the decisions at all. I'm going to empower you to do the right thing number one for the customer, because then that ultimately becomes the right thing for the company over many observations and so that was a transition that some people are still working through. Frankly, in leadership roles within the company. It's sometimes people get comfortable being told what to do and we just we don't do that anymore. And you know a couple of people have left as a result of that. They did not have that comfort and that's okay because it's not the right job for them anymore. But most people have really embraced the opportunity of agency and empowerment and the ability to kind of run their own part of the business. ADVERT Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom. And thanks for listening to the show. Chris: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to unpack there, but clearly what you're talking about in my terms are giving people autonomy, but with accountability, which I think is the right way to go. However, organizations evolve over time, just like people. So I think we talk about command and control in the early days. That, for most companies, may make sense, but where this company is now and size and scale, you couldn't do that because there's too much going on and you have to then hire the right people, and the people that work for the company in the first few years may not work, you know, 10 years, 15 years later, because different skill sets needed, right, so it sounds like you've got your hands around that pretty well. Mike: Well, you know, it's always a work in progress, and so one of the one of the accelerants to adopting a new cultural tone is bringing in people, you know right. So I brought in a couple of guys and they are both guys, I'm afraid, who I had worked with a number of times in the past, who I knew kind of got the way that we wanted to run the railroad and who are are the kind of guys who just roll up their sleeves every day and make the most of the day. And, you know, those guys are not only in leadership roles within the company but they're also, you know, setting a tone for the others they work with most closely day to day, and I absolutely think it's working. Chris: That's great. So kind of sum that conversation up for us how would you define the culture of Funware today? Mike: I'd say that we're kind of a restart up, but with all the good elements of a startup, and what I mean by that is that we had a revenue profile that grew, grew and then it kind of dropped off. For some reason I wasn't here, and we're in the process of growing back up and we're getting in the right people who are interested in not only doing great work and serving the customers really well and building a terrific product, but also ones who are embracing the autonomy and the accountability that we're providing to them, and I couldn't be any more pleased with the reception that I'm getting. Chris: Anything special that you've kind of put in place to kind of help foster that type of culture so that you can perpetuate it and see it grow. Mike: Well, we tend to recognize the behaviors that we're looking for, and here's what I mean by that. So you know, somebody will just do a thing right and they'll do it. They'll achieve an accomplishment, whatever that accomplishment may be, and we'll talk. We've got a Slack channel. Slack is a tool we use all day long, every day, and we have a Slack channel called Momentum, and the Momentum channel is really about recognizing the contributions that a person makes, and the deal is that if you put something in Momentum, you've got to recognize somebody else. So you say, hey, a great thing happened, you got to recognize somebody else. So you say, hey, a great thing happened. And I want to thank Bob over here for his contribution to the thing, because Bob, you know, contributed in a way that if he hadn't done that, you know we might not have gotten the outcome that we're looking for. You know that that's something that you see traffic in every single day, that's great. Chris: We obviously I can relate to that we do something similar here at the firm Every single day. That's great, I can relate to that. We do something similar here at the firm, not necessarily on a specific channel, but it's kind of become part of our culture to. We call them core value kudos and it's about recognizing other people not yourself, obviously in efforts that they made and tying them to our mission and values, so that the behaviors and the values marry up right. And then people. It makes it tangible that I want to thank or, you know, congratulate someone for doing X, Y and Z which demonstrated this value in action. Mike: That's terrific. Yeah, I've been in companies that have done that. I think that's something that I may need to reincorporate into my bag of tricks there, for sure that have done that. I think that's something that I may need to reincorporate into my bag of tricks there for sure. Chris: So you know along those lines your software company. I always am interested to know what are you doing to kind of promote or foster creativity and innovation within the company? Mike: Well, some of the things that you know it's interesting, I'm going to I'll give you maybe a little bit longer answer you might be looking for, but there is, and it's really important to kind of separate the day-to-day from the long-term vision. And what I mean by that is that I'm, let's say, a developer and today I have to fix a bug, and I just have to fix the bug because the bug exists and it's in the way of something happening and it's not my favorite part of the job, I'm quite confident of that. Not my favorite part of the job, I'm quite confident of that. Not my favorite part of the job to fix a bug. But there is some long range stuff that I'm really excited about. A big part of what we do is indoor wayfinding and hyperlocal marketing offers, and there are lots and lots of innovations that we're looking at right now, and so we identify people who are interested in innovation. We put together both formal processes for them to say, okay, you're on the R&D team and you're going to be doing this work, but we also give them informal opportunities. Hey, look, I want you to go to Denver to our customer with Gaylord Rockies and I want you to actually go into the physical space that we're trying to map, and I want you to help me figure out a better way to do it. And so that's two things. It's number one, solving a strategic problem for the business, but it's also kind of getting them out of their, since we're all virtual, it's getting them out of their own office, sending them to Denver, take an extra day, engage the customer, do great work, but also enjoy yourself a little bit. So we try to give people an opportunity to get out of the context within which they're working sitting in my home office squashing bugs and get out into the real world where our solutions are deployed in ways that are not only sort of fun but also problem solving. Chris: So you've been in some leadership roles throughout your career, obviously CEO now. How would you describe your leadership style and how do you think it's evolved over the last few years? Mike: Well, I try to work with people. I try to work as best I can. You can't always do that right, but you can absolutely make the investment of time to get to know them, and so I walk into this job. I've got a CFO that I just met very recently, and I had a chief legal officer that I met just recently, and I had a chief operating officer that I had known actually for some time and one of those guys wound up leaving that I had known actually for some time and you know, one of those guys wound up leaving. But you know the other two guys that I had just met. I made it a real point of going to where they were, sitting down with them breaking bread, understanding who they are, what they were trying to accomplish, why they were at the company in the first place and all the rest of it, because it was important for me to understand whether I could trust and whether it was appropriate to invest in these guys. Right and absolutely it was. By the way, I had a couple of gaps in my leadership team and what I did was find people that I'd worked with in the past and I said, look, are you willing to come and work for me again, and the answer in every case was absolutely so, and that's not because I'm the greatest guy in the world or because I gave him a zillion dollars or anything like that. It's because we have, over the years, established a working cadence that's founded on this idea of trust and accountability, autonomy of action and really candor of discussion. There's nothing that the leadership team and I don't discuss in detail and with candor. We're not afraid to tell our truths to each other. We've created what I think is a safe space for us to really talk about what's on our mind and what concerns or challenges we have, or if somebody is all wet, you know, and and that kind of. That kind of culture. The executive table, I think, filters down to the rest of the business in ways that help support the culture we're trying to build. Chris: Yeah, and I was gonna say it sounds like it's a culture of safety to have the hard conversations, but that those conversations are done in a respectful way. Mike: Yeah. Chris: I don't know if there's no better way to do it Right, and it's okay to fail. Mike: And I got to tell you, I used to race, I used to race cars a long time ago and you know, if you don't crash, you're not driving fast enough and so it's okay. It's okay to crash every once in a while because that means you're pushing the envelope, You're trying to get, you know, you're trying to get to the edge of the performance envelope and that's positive. Chris: Yeah, no, let's talk about that, cause I I there. There's always learning, and so I think there's. You know, when you have setbacks or failures, you can learn from them and it can make you better. Don't let it define you. So can you give us an example of more than not the car racing, because crashing is easy to understand as a failure, but in the business world, as a leader something that you felt a failure of yours, a bad decision, a setback that you absolutely grew from, and it's made you better today. Mike: Yeah, sure enough, I think that my greatest learnings are not being decisive enough and not acting quickly enough. And so you know, let's say, for example, I'll give you the example of last company I worked for before. Well, yes, I'll give you that example. So I was working at an AI video startup in Madison, Wisconsin. It was essentially a unit of a publicly traded company that I won't name, but your viewers can certainly look it up. And, long story short, that company is now bankrupt and I don't fault any of the. I don't fault the CEO of that company, which was not me, by the way, in that, but I fault myself. Yeah, exactly, it wasn't me. I didn't bankrupt the company. This was a guy I had worked with before were pretty small, and so what I said was I need this much to make this happen. I was given about half that much and I didn't adequately reset the expectations on how long it was going to take to get that thing done, slash. I should have had probably more pointed discussion about is this worth doing at all, and I didn't do that. And the long story short is that company is now bankrupt for lots of reasons, but the thing that I that my not being as aggressive as I felt like I should have been was a contributor to that. I think it was a small contributor, but you know all that to say that it didn't help. Chris: And so I kind of trace it. I would say the learning for you is kind of having the hard conversations faster right and that's the kind of culture that's terrifically important for me. Mike: So that informs the culture I'm building at Funware, which is like, if this ain't going to work, I just need you to tell me, and I might disagree and I might argue with you, but I will absolutely hear you. I might argue with you, but I will absolutely hear you. It's going to be super important for us to just trust each other enough to be able to have the discussion about you know, without fear. I guess is where I'm coming from. Chris: I understand that, so let's talk a little bit about you know these are important jobs that you've held over the last few years, and as is the current one. I don't like using the term work-life balance, but how do you? Manage work and personal life to try to keep them both going in a positive direction. Mike: Well, I spend a lot of time with my kids. I really, yeah, my daughter. So I'm here in Ohio, I'm spending time with my father and mother, but my daughter came along, my older daughter came along, she's out of school already. I'm going to go next week pick up my younger daughter in boarding school in Colorado, drive her down to Big Bend, where she has never been, and then, you know, spend time with her over the summer. So I mean, it's really about being deliberate about that and working from anywhere, candidly, in my opinion, helps. There's no expectation. I'm going to the office, I'm going to be there during the business day on Monday through Friday, and what I kind of joke is that I mean, I work a lot, no question about it, but I work around my life as opposed to work, as opposed to planning my life around my work, to planning my life around my work. So I might work, you know, 60 hours a week, but that's not going to be five times 12. That's going to be, you know, kind of eight-ish times seven. I'll work every day a little bit, but I'm certainly going to put my kids first and that's just the way it is. Chris: Well, I can identify with that. I think everyone has to find their own way and each job and role requires different things. In different stages of life require different things. So I think that's what people you know should stay focused on, individually as well as the companies to try to make sure you have good people. You don't want to lose them for those types of reasons. People you don't want to lose them for those types of reasons. Yeah, so, mike, this has been a great conversation. Before we wrap up, I just want to kind of get a little bit more less or a little less serious about things. Tell us what was your first job as a kid? Mike: It'd be funny, you should ask. So I'm back in rural Ohio where I grew up. Right now, at my parents' house, as I mentioned earlier, my first job was was am I allowed to say shit on your podcast? Of course, the texas my first, my first job was shoveling hog shit. Chris: Shoveling hog shit for minimum wage and I was nothing that wants to make you go to college and get a degree than that right. Mike: well, the funny thing is that I wound up raising hogs to pay for college. So it was fine to shovel the hog shit, but I was like, if I was fine to shovel the hog shit, but I was like, if I'm going to shovel the hog shit, I'm going to do it for more than $3.35 an hour. I'm going to do it in exchange for a college education. So that's not exactly that way, but that's a big part of how I kind of got off the farm and moving ahead. Chris: I love that, okay, well, yeah, obviously, as we now know, you're from Ohio, but you spent enough time in Texas for me to ask you this question Do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Mike: I love Tex-Mex. I would eat Tex-Mex every day of the week All right. And sometimes I do. I do love barbecue, but the thing is that the best barbecue is something I don't want to wait in line for and I don't want to drive a long ways. If I happen to be by La Barbecue or Franklin's a little bit over their great barbecue a little bit overhyped, or if I want a great barbecue, I'll just treat it as a destination thing. I'll go down to Lockhart or something like that, but I can get absolutely terrific Tex-Mex around the corner from my house every day of the week. Chris: Yes, it was one good thing. You know, I think we living in Texas both are abundant right. Mike: But you're right. Chris: The marquee barbecue, you know, is tucked away in some places. All right, so my last thing is if you could do a 30 day sabbatical, where would you go? What would you do? Mike: Well, I got a bunch of customers who have really beautiful beach resorts so I might go to one of those. Chris: You might go break bread with them there. Mike: Break bread with the customers at the most beautiful resorts in the world. That would be one thing I might do. There are a lot of places around the world that I'd love to see, so I've got a Google Maps layer that has little flags. There are probably 800 flags on that map and I add some every week. Places that I like to go around the world. Sometimes they're restaurants that I read about. Sometimes they're beautiful. You know natural features, like you know mountain ranges, the Painted Mountains in the Andes, or you know beautiful lake I've never been to Crater Lake, things like that so what I'd probably do is find 30 days worth of those pins in an area that I can consume within that 30-day period and I'd just go knock it out. Chris: I love that. I like the concept of keeping track of the pins. Yep. Mike: And there's too many on the map that you know I'll be dead and gone before I get to see all of them. But you know, it is kind of a it's a memory bank for things that have caught my interest and that I do want to experience at some point, if I can pull it off. Chris: Love it. Love it Well, mike, thanks so much for taking the time to be a guest on the show. Really enjoyed hearing your story, and the things y'all are doing at Funware sound really fun, exciting and innovative. Mike: Thanks a lot. Special Guest: Mike Snavely.

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I welcomed Jen Sudduth, CEO of Sudduth Search, for an insightful discussion on her journey in the executive search industry. Jen shared her story of transitioning from Taylor Winfield to launching her boutique firm focused on transformative growth companies. I learned how Sudduth Search crafts a supportive work culture that prioritizes both productivity and well-being. Our dialogue also uncovered nuances around balancing work responsibilities with life's pleasures. As we wrapped up, Jen reflected on life lessons from mentorship to her commitment to the Special Olympics community SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Jen Sudduth shares her transition from Taylor Winfield to founding Sudduth Search, focusing on middle market private equity and emphasizing the need for leaders who can drive change. We explore the importance of having a business and marketing strategy before starting a venture, as well as considering when to hire based on company growth and values alignment. Strategies for maintaining work-life balance in recruitment are discussed, including setting boundaries and fostering a culture that supports employee well-being alongside business success. The episode delves into the comprehensive selection process for executive search, particularly for pivotal roles such as CFOs, and the role of retained search firms in this process. Jen reflects on the role of empathy in leadership and the importance of mentorship, drawing from her own experiences and her involvement with the Special Olympics. Personal joys, such as a preference for Tex-Mex cuisine and planning for sabbatical destinations like Maine and Santa Fe, are shared as part of achieving a joyful living. The conversation covers the initial opportunistic hiring during COVID and the shift towards a more strategic hiring approach to raise the team's overall expertise. Chris and Jen discuss the benefits of leaving a company the right way, honoring agreements, and how transparency can lead to unexpected opportunities. Jen advises on the importance of planning for success, not just the startup phase, by having operational projections and growth strategies in place. The episode also touches on Jen's past experience as Director of Talent at a consultancy, highlighting how internal hiring insights can improve external recruitment advice. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Sudduth search GUESTS Jen SudduthAbout Jen TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In today's episode, you will meet Jen Sudduth, co-founder and CEO of Sudduth Search, a boutique executive search firm. Jen's advice to aspiring entrepreneurs is to be intentional and purposeful in your business planning, and don't forget to plan for success. Okay, jen, first off, welcome to Building Texas Business. Thanks for being here. Jen: Thank you. Chris: So I'm excited to have this conversation with you today. I want to start by just allowing you to introduce yourself and tell us what your company, Sudduth Search, is known for. Jen: Sure. So we are a seven-person boutique executive search firm, but I think what we do is a little bit unique. We work with the middle market private equity. Probably 75% of our clients are private equity backed. The other are public, private you name it individually owned, it doesn't matter. I think the common denominator with all of them is that all of the companies are going through some sort of transformation, and most of the time that's growth. It could have been that they raised capital. That's a trigger to bring us in and go and replace some of your leadership team. Could be some of our bigger companies going through some sort of culture change. We did 10 positions for a Blackstone-backed company and basically they wanted to pull from outside of their industry and they didn't know how to do that, and so we helped them come up with a concept of how to do that completely, you know, changed their recruiting processes from how they were doing them before, and then they brought in a whole new culture and that's what they wanted. They wanted a different culture than they had before. So it's just, it doesn't matter what the trigger is, but it's usually some sort of change, transformation. You need a leader that can drive that change right. You need someone that is fearless. A lot of times that can come in, and they're you. You know they can make things happen. Right and that's where we play most of the time. Chris: Well, what I find interesting about that is how laser focused it is what inspired you to kind of start a search firm that was so focused on that kind of niche industry. Jen: So I've actually done it for over 20 years and the firm I was with before was called Taylor Winfield. I only bring that up because a lot of people know Taylor Winfield. I started with Taylor Winfield and kind of worked my way up and that's what they focused on. They were more. You know that was 2000, so there was a lot of venture money out there, there was Silicon Valley and they worked a lot in California we did. I was just a lowly junior recruiter back then and that's where I learned the business and that's where I kind of learned that world. And it's not for everyone, both as a candidate and as a recruiter, because sometimes candidates will go well, what are they going to sell? Am I going to still have a job? I'm like, well, you're really not, you're not right for this, because that's not the mentality that we look for in a candidate. But so that's how I got my start and that's how I learned it. And then when I started this up my practice five years ago, I kind of I don't do a whole lot of venture. I have a few here and there. Usually they're a little bit more mature as a company. I think. As I've aged I'm not as patient with the venture. I think they've got a great thing going. But it's just a different world and I think sometimes those, the people that are willing to go and do something really earlier stage, are not the same people that I'm looking for the middle market series, b series, c type folks. So so that's how I had got into. It was really that's kind of what I've done my whole career. Chris: Gotcha. Well, I know that you started this company Suddeth Search around five years ago. Jen: Exactly. Chris: So you had to make some decision to leave and just start fresh on your own. Let's talk about that a little bit. What drove that decision? Jen: So the company that I worked for was actually owned by and I don't usually say this, so you're getting new information here by my stepmother, connie Adair, and I bring that up because she's fully retired now. She's been retired for about two years. But she brought me into the business, not as a multi-generational business. I had to earn my keep, earn my way Right, just like everyone else. She was very big on treating me like everyone else. Chris: The benefit for you that she did that. Jen: Absolutely and I learned from the best. She was really known as one of the best in the industry so I kind of got to see that world and that process. But she sold to private equity and it was a private equity roll up. Like some of them, it didn't go really well. The integration piece was a little rough. Chris: Not unique in that regard, right and I got no benefit from it. Jen: To be quite honest. I stuck around to try to support her and she did well. And then she got another bite of the apple and I tried for two years. I wasn't a big company person and I realized if I can make this kind of money for someone else, I should be doing it for myself. And so I kind of did it because I could, and she fully supported me. She knew that retirement was on the horizon and so when I told her she said you know, I think you should go for it. So that's what I did. Chris: That's great. Well, I mean good to have that encouragement for someone that you were close with but considered to be a trusted mentor Absolutely. So got to be a little bit trepidatious to just start out on your own, even though you know what you're doing and you, I think you can't do that unless you have confidence that it's going to work and confidence that it will work isn't a guarantee that it will Absolutely. But you know what were some of the things you did to kind of set yourself up in those early days of starting your own company, to try to pave the path towards success. Jen: So I will start with the fact that I had a very strict non-compete. I did not get any clients from the company or from her, and I am a devout follower of non-competes. Chris: Well, it's funny, you say that you bring that, yeah, you know, now we devise people, I mean literally every day, on both sides of those, and right because because they exist and obviously you know there's a lot of buzz recently because the ftc came out with the rule to ban them, uh, which is, you know, probably not going to take effect because lawsuits have already been filed to challenge it. Jen: But it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out yeah in the next, over the next few years, I think yeah, and not to say I don't think some non-competes go overboard. I have heard some ludicrous non-competes as I'm interviewing, so sure, I do think a lot of them go overboard. I think the fdc is in the is moving in the right direction with some of them, because I think they're a little too restrictive. Chris: But that's not your question yeah, and even as the rule's written, it doesn't apply to executives, so it wouldn't change your world. Jen: It wouldn't, and I'd been there a long time. Everything I got was under their umbrella. So what I did do was I planned for a long time. I've owned businesses before and so I had a business plan, I had a marketing plan, I had a strategy. The other advantage I had was that I had been I've been asked to be on the board of ACG and so that was a. I knew that was going to be great PR. It's gonna be great relationships there. That's how I met Steve Kasten here at the Boyer Miller and a few others, and so I knew that was coming. But it was pretty far out. You know my tenure had just started. Didn't know I was gonna be president, but I knew that was gonna be on the. I'd have a lot of visibility. So that helped quite a bit. I think that was one factor. Fun story unrelated to your question the day before I quit, the day before my last day, I gave like four months notice and they knew I was leaving. I was unwinding. I had some really big searches, so I was unwinding those and finishing those up for clients, kind of on the bench, but just doing that. So the day of the last day of employment I get a call from that client that I just mentioned wanted to change their culture Blackstone Back Company. He said I got 10 searches for you, jim. I said, well, I can't do them, I'm leaving, today is my last day. And he's well, I'm not doing it without you. And so I called the company and I said here's what's happening. Would you, would we, can we do a fee split? Didn't know that was coming, but that was really great cash flow. And they said yes, and so we worked out a fee split. I continued I worked with that client and then they brought in their team, but it was great cash flow right out of the gates. And and then they brought in their team, but it was great cash flow right out of the gates. And then I developed brand new clients from that point on. But I knew the industry. I think the industry knew me. Chris: So even if it wasn't somebody, I'd worked before, I had a plan and I went after those people. That's a really cool story to hear and there's a lesson. There's probably many lessons, but one that just struck me right between the eyes is the lesson in leaving the right way, when you leave a company versus leaving the wrong way and you just laid out a roadmap for the listeners. If you're thinking about leaving, you left the right way, honoring your agreements, and then, with the transparency to get the slug of business for your new business, for your new company, because you went to them and said here's the deal, because you've done everything else right. It's good to hear that. I guess they could have not honored that, but they did the right thing in my mind too, yeah, by saying yeah, it'd be fair to share this and, by the way, we should. Customer comes first. That's what they want. Let's make them happy. Jen: So customer comes first. That's what they want. Let's make them happy. So, yeah, and I completely agree and I try to tell people and I know there's exceptions, I know there's bosses that are just difficult and if they know you're even looking there, you're gone. I know that happens, but I think majority of the time people are reasonable and if you come to them and sometimes I'll have friends come to me and say I'm thinking about making a change- Grass is greener Right and I'm like I know they're in a great situation. I'm like have you had a really difficult conversation with your boss before you leave, before you start thinking about? Have you told them that you're unhappy You've been there? Chris: 14 years or you've been there seven years. Jen: Have you talked about it? And usually the answer is no, and so I try to encourage them to say go talk to them first and then if it's still you know, in a month you still feel like it's just not fulfilling then talk about leaving. Yeah, but you need to give them a chance. Chris: It's great advice. People unfortunately right. It's kind of human nature to avoid the difficult, uncomfortable conversation, or at least I'll say this, the ones we perceive have it that they're going to be difficult or uncomfortable. And to your point, I think, a lot of times if you actually have the courage to go have it, they usually aren't as difficult or uncomfortable as you work them up in your mind to be. Jen: Absolutely. Chris: And you know I can speak. You know as well as you can. If you give your employer, where you've been otherwise happy for a while, the chance to have that conversation most people if there's a tweak or two that would keep you there, it's probably going to save the company a ton of money. To consider that. Jen: And it might benefit the company. Talk to them about. You know I'd really like to do more sales. You know I'd really like to take on bigger projects. You know what We've been looking for someone that wants to take on bigger projects. You just never know what the company needs. Chris: So we can go back. You mentioned, and just for the listeners ACG Association of Corporate Growth. Jen: Yes. Chris: Indice Group industry in the kind of M&A, a lot of private equity. So sounds like part of that marketing plan was to plug yourself in to the right kind of networking system where you would meet people and build relationships. Jen: That's correct. Yeah, yeah, and I eventually was asked to be president I don't know if you know that and so it was a lot of it was a lot of visibility as well. That's half the battle. Chris: Yes. Jen: Because there's a lot of top of mind search firms out there. Yeah, getting top of mind and helping them see that. I understand private equity, I understand what their challenges are. I understand what they're trying to achieve. I understand how capital's raised. You know I've got the knowledge base to be able to convey that to candidates and to help find the right one that's going to fit that. So I think that helped a lot and it's it was educational for me. You know, going to conferences, hearing panels speak. I know a lot about a lot or a little about a lot. Chris: Let me rephrase that I shouldn't admit that, but it's true, but it does. Jen: It's real educational to hear those conversations and to hear what's happening in the market. You know from your peers that are in the organization. Chris: A couple other takeaways from what you said. That I hope people listening caught is that you had a plan before you did this right, absolutely. You sat down and put it to paper a business plan, a marketing plan, a strategy. Look, I think those are so important and can be overlooked. When people say, look, I'm just going to go chase this dream, that's great because you need the inspiration, but you also need some substance behind it, because if you eventually do go to and most will go to a bank or an investor or something, they're going to be asking about that. So you better be prepared. Jen: Absolutely. Chris: So one of the things and you and I were talking about this, I guess before we got the recording going, and that is you know about this, I guess before we got the recording going, and that is you know, you now have seven employees. Let's talk a little bit about you know. I think there's a few conversations. One is what was it that triggered you each time to make the decision Now it's time to take on an employee or another employee, because those are big investments and then how did you go about making sure they were the right fit? Jen: Yeah. So it was growth that predicated the need. That was the part I didn't plan was when am I going to hire what? You know what? At what point do we need to bring on another person? At what point do we need to bring on a junior person, et cetera, et cetera. I didn't plan that piece of it and I probably should have, but it was really just my bandwidth and being able to do what I needed to do. You know, we were super busy during COVID, which sounds really strange, but I had some. I had that one big client that was still going. I had just so, if you think about I had been in business for about a year and so that year I had been really busy doing marketing and business development and getting out there and making relationships, and so it just it paid off and I think a lot of those people one of my biggest clients I don't know if you know Dave Marchese, he'd be a good guest. Let's do it. He called me out of the blue in the middle of COVID and we had met like five years prior, but he had seen my posts and my marketing and my emails and so he said I can't go out. I'm not going to go out and interview five interview candidates, but we're in the or excuse me search firms because we're in the middle of COVID. So what you got Jen, and so I took it on, and we've probably done 15 different positions over three or four years. Wow, so he's one of our biggest clients. So there that, I think the prior relationships definitely helped us make it. You asked about employees, though. Chris: Yes, well, before we go there. Yeah, one of the things you so interesting. You said I didn't plan for growth. Yeah, probably should have. Jen: Yeah. Chris: So, looking back, what do you think you could have done in that regard that you might offer as advice to someone that you know is maybe about to do something similar that you did five years ago? You know, what have you learned? Looking back, to say I would have, if I was going to do it again, I would plan for growth in this way. Jen: Plan for success. I think I was so focused on how am I going to get there that I didn't say if, when I get there, if when I get there, how am I going to get to the next level? I never did that. I never said, okay, I can handle 12 searches, or whatever it is, at different in different phases. So if I get 14, what do I do? At what point do I, you know? Do I need to start hiring when I get to 9 searches, whatever it? So maybe it was a revenue. I think I should have projected and said, because I've been in the business a while, I know how many searches I can do by myself or with a team, and so I think that would have been very helpful to do kind of like an FB&A analysis, but on the operational side. Chris: Right, Very helpful, that's very helpful. Okay, so now let's go back to kind of set a search. You starting to decide I've hit the point, I can't do this all, I've got to bring someone on. Yeah, you know how did you go about sourcing. I know obviously you've probably had a lot of contacts, but you know just the whole process of how you interviewed to make sure they were going to be a good fit for your company. Jen: So my first hire, I got really lucky because she was a neighbor, a friend who got laid off during COVID and so we brought her on just to do some of this data pushing type stuff. She made phone calls, cold calls, she's fearless, and then she grew into being a really good recruiter. After that first hire it was, oh my God, I can't handle this. I just need a body that can help do, a professional person that can do all this. After that hire I was much more purposeful. After that it was we want experience. We want, you know, degree Now she was degreed. But we want degreed individuals that understand the business world, that understand you know degree Now she was degreed. But we want degreed individuals that understand the business world, that understand, you know. I think every time I made another hire I kind of elevated my expectations. Chris: Right. Jen: And not to say the first hire was. She was a phenomenal employee, but I think every time after that I was much more purposeful about how I, who I wanted to hire and what my expectations of them were. Chris: Yeah, that makes sense to me and you're right, it's not a condemnation of the earlier hires. It's if you're doing things right, I believe you're always learning and your processes can always get better, and it doesn't mean you didn't make bad hires before, but you can get more intentionality around the decisions you're making and I think that's part of growth and when you're a one person show or two because my husband did join me about six months in it's harder to attract talent you know, Now we're about to make an offer to a pretty senior person and we had a really good slate of people that were interested, that were like, yeah, I want to join a boutique firm, I want to do what you're doing. Jen: So it changes too. Advert: Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom. And thanks for listening to the show. Well, that's validating. So you've gone through this process of sourcing people for your company, right, and what have you? What has that process and the learning? Jen: through that done to help you better advise your clients or vet candidates for them. What else about that I'm actually gonna go back to. So I took about five years. I left the executive search world and went to a consultancy and they I was director of talent. We tripled in size in about five years time and then they sold to Accenture about two years after I left. When I left, I think oil and gas was zero. The barrel, the barrel. Chris: I remember that yeah. Jen: So they made a strong comeback and then eventually sold. But being on the inside like that was the best education I could get, because it was. This is what happens when you make a really bad hire. This is what happens to the entire company when you make a really good hire. And we weren't huge I think we ended up being about a hundred but but it was really helpful to me to see. I also learned you know really short tenures on people's resume. There's a reason you know, I know there's reasons that people have to leave jobs absolutely there's good reasons, but when it's over and over and over, and then you hire that person because you're desperate for a data manager or whatever it is. You're desperate for that skill. You're going to find out why they can't stay in a job longer. I learned a lot being on the inside, you know, and I think that job is really what taught me kind of the hard knocks of making a mishire. Chris: Right. Well, I think you're to your point, right, it's if you look there are red flags, pay attention to them, and I know from our we're not perfect either in this business that I have, and you know sometimes you can convince yourself to overlook a red flag here or there, and more times than not you shouldn't. Right, there's exceptions to every rule, but we don't want to run a business based on exceptions necessarily You've got to be purposeful about those hires is really what it taught me. Jen: You know very purposeful. Chris: So just to kind of come back to Sutter's search a little bit so you have seven, about to have eight, and you talked about doing a search for a client where it was a culture change. Let's talk about culture at Sutter Search. What are you, as the kind of co-founder and CEO, doing to try to cultivate a culture? How would you describe it? And what are you doing to kind of, you know, foster it and breathe life into it? Jen: Yeah, it's hard with seven people, eight people, you know, to kind of create that, because you're like oh, we're just eight people, but they need it. Employees need training, they need to be developed, they need to evolve, they need to expand and grow, and so we actually started EOS at the beginning of this year. Are you familiar with entrepreneurial operating system? Chris: Yes. Jen: I think I don't know if Allie was the one that told me about it, but you know I've heard a lot of business owners that have done it, and so we actually started it and I think it's been evolutionary and I'm not selling it, I don't sell anything they do but it has really helped us be very purposeful about what we're doing for our employees, and so my one of our other managing directors is. She's in charge of kind of the HR and training, and so we have a weekly training every single week and it's sometimes it's heavier than others, but we have a weekly training every week and one of the employees actually gives it, so they have to go out and learn themselves and then they come and teach the rest of us. I try to. I'm a big advocate in the old school headhunting world is just dog eat, dog work, and so when I started my firm I was like I don't want to be that way. We're not working 12-hour days, we're not working both coasts, we're going to have a great and I hate to use the words work-life balance because I know it's overused. Chris: That's right. Jen: But we are, we're going to edit that part out. I'm kidding it is overused, but I think in some aspects it's important because you're a better employee if you take your vacation, if you didn't have to work until 9 pm the night before, if your managing director isn't calling you at 6 in the morning because she happens to be on the East Coast that is not the culture that we have. I'm always telling them you're going on vacation. Who's taking your emails? You're going on vacation. Who's taking your emails? You're going on vacation. Who's taking your calls? Did you put your out of? We require out of office messages to be turned on and I'm just, I'm always preaching that. I really think it's important to separate yourself and give your brain a break, because what we do is very, it's very repetitive, it's very. You know you may, if you have ten searches, that you have four candidates at least on what we usually have a hundred, but you have four finalists going through to offer yeah you think about the ups and downs every single day. Chris: It's a lot well, I mean, to your point, what you're doing, I mean, has to be stressful because you're affecting people's lives. Absolutely right, you got four candidates and or maybe see this as a great opportunity and are very hopeful, and you got a, a client, that needs to fill a hole and every day they don't have that whole field, they're losing money. So I can get that yeah to your point, the work-life balance and we could do a whole podcast on that. But I think what my experience has shown, or at least what I feel like I've learned through that, is our work-life balance is different at different times of our career. So it's hard to institutionalize that when everyone's at different stages. We try to use the term more like professional development. Developing our people to be great professionals means you tend to your business, but you tend to you have a life as well and you got to figure out how to manage both in a healthy way, knowing that the way it works for me now is totally different than it was 15 years ago right and that's okay because everything changes and we have new employees here that are going through totally different life stuff than I go through now. but how do we help give them the tools, the training to manage that and still be successful both in the office and in their personal life? Jen: Yeah, and we do we have different? Everybody kind of has a different work methodology. I shouldn't say hours, it's more like hours, you know a 20-something. They like to kind of work late in the day and have their workouts in the morning or whatever. Like everybody's kind of different. And then Hazel and I are about the same age and we like to not be disturbed until 8.30 or something. You know, like we like to go do our thing in the morning and work out and whatever. Read the paper and everybody's a little different, but we are very understanding of each other's different lifestyles. Right To your point. Chris: The key there comes to communication right. Yeah absolutely Absolutely, and so do you have. What is it that you're using as such to make sure those conversations are happening? Yeah, so that people understand how each other works differently, but together you can work for success. Jen: Yeah, we talk about it when they're hired. I say I'm not going to track your hours unless your productivity is not working Right, and then we're going to talk about it. Do you have too of a workload? Or, let's be honest, are you not working enough? You know, because last week you didn't have very many searches. This week you've got a lot. So if I need you to work till six, you gotta admit that last week you didn't have to. And they're very honest with me. A lot of times they'll say, hey, not going to be online until 10 or so, but I'm going to be working late or whatever. Or I stayed up for four hours last night sourcing. So you know I'll be available on phone but I'm not online. Perfectly okay, and we're very flexible that way. It's a little hard sometimes. You know, I'm always like are you working? I'm on the back of my brain and then I have to call myself and go. Of course they are, it's not producing. Chris: So that comes down to two fundamentals no matter what industry, communication, yeah, and what you're willing to do is have what some people might feel like is the harder conversation or uncomfortable conversation, but you approach it with kind of support and transparency. Jen: Yeah. Chris: The other thing. It comes down to productivity. Jen: Yeah, right. Chris: Absolutely. If we're running a business, we're running a for-profit business. We have to be productive to make the business go. So you can't lose sight of that. Some people, I fear at times the extracurriculars overweigh what we do to make our money and what is our. You go into the. This is what fuels our economic engine. We can't lose sight of that. It won't matter how many out-of policies or things we do, we won't have a business to support it. Jen: So it's finding a balance there, right? Yeah, I'd say the common denominator with all my employees is they thrive on success. They thrive on accomplishing things. They're not going to just shut things off if they're not done and they haven't accomplished what they set out to accomplish. They're very driven that way. That's a common denominator. Chris: Very good. So a little bit about your business. So you were saying you know, middle market focused, we're kind of approaching mid-year 2024, which is like just blows my mind that we're, you know, that far into the year already. But you know there are businesses out there that either use services like yourself or maybe contemplating that, and I know, at least in your world there's at least two different ways to go about it Retain, searches or kind of the contingency model. Can you just share maybe a little bit about what each is, the differences, pros and cons, and maybe flow into what a company should consider going one versus the other? Jen: Yeah. So I want to make it clear that I am not pro or con. Either way, I think there's a contingency, there's absolutely a place for it. I have several friends that are in the contingency recruiting world and they say I will never be in the retained world. So there is a place for it and I think if you have a large number of hires, you have a position or a company that is attractive to candidates and you want to get all the resumes you can get and then choose because they want to come to you, that's great. You can use contingency. What we do is a consultancy. So if you're a middle market working with a middle market firm right now, it's a downhole tool. Cfo position this position is critical that they get it right because they have big plans. I'm not going to tell you what those big plans are. They're private equity backed and they have big plans and it's going to happen, but if they don't have a financial expert that can devote time and devote, then it's not going to happen. And so it's critical, and in that situation you absolutely need to find the best person that you can find, and you need to interview a lot of people to make sure that you are choosing the right person, and so that's what we're doing. That's where we come in, and it doesn't have to be a CFO role. We can do. We do VPs and we do directors sure directors but we're going to look at 150 people that we know could do this job, and then we're going to reach out to every one of them and then we're going to interview 20 or 30. I'm going to interview half of those and then I'm going to present and rank the top. So it's not like we're going out and finding five people that are qualified and handing them to you. We're going out and finding 10 times that many maybe not 10 times, but a lot more than that and then finding you the best and ranking those for you to interview. So if it's a critical hire for your company to succeed, I would absolutely recommend retained, because they should be a retained firm, should be a consultancy, they should help you find that person. Chris: So that's really helpful, and hearing you describe it makes the difference very clear for me. I hope for the listeners and what I hear is you're doing a lot more upfront work on the retained side and I guess, as a consumer of these services, you should expect that your retained firm will do a lot more upfront work and vetting the best clients to bring to you. Jen: Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing I think that's important for my clients to know is our database is completely open. Our kimono is open. Is that a bad thing to say? Chris: No, we don't have video, so we're good. Jen: They can see everything we're doing, when we're doing, how we're doing. It's not a we'll talk to you in a month or two and we'll give you three great people. There's no magic thing that happens like that. It's a database they can go in. They can be like ooh, I know that guy and not going to work. Chris: Right, whatever reason, work right, whatever reason. So through, I guess, an online portal that you give them access to. Jen: okay and so it's a process to get to the fine. We meet once a week and I say here's why we chose, here's why we interview these people. What do you think? And a lot of times I'll say you know what? That company doesn't hire well, or they might be an acquisition on the horizon with that company. We can't talk to their people, so we have weekly conversations that get us closer and closer to the best person. And so it's a process, it's a very thorough process that gets us there. But that's 15, 30 minutes a week from our client, that's it. Chris: Okay, Well, they have to be invested, especially in these that are so critical. The positions to fill the client has to be invested. That's right and I like the somewhat. Maybe it's not. It sounds innovative to me that you are creating that opportunity for them to vet and see what's going on whenever they want. Right, but have those weekly check-ins. You know, it sounds like a kind of a white glove service, if you will. Jen: Yeah, and I think a lot of times people are scared, overtained. They're like what if it doesn't? What if you don't find someone? I'm like never happened in the history of 23 years, because we're talking to you and if we're not finding the right people, we're going to pivot, we're going to merge, we're going to figure out why is that happening. Is it the company reputation? Is it our pitch? Is it the way we're describing it? I mean, we're going after the wrong people. We will figure it out. We always fill the positions. Chris: Right Always, because you're invested in it. Right, right, it's not which. Jen: Because it's and it's not a. Here's three resumes, let me know. Chris: Right. Jen: That's not how it works. I got it. Chris: That makes sense. So a little bit, I just want to ask you're obviously, you know, leading this company. What, what would you or how would you describe your leadership style and how would you say that maybe has evolved over time based on your experience? Jen: So I would describe my leadership style as real. It's too real. I like to be pretty open with my employees and I have weekly calls with almost all of them I shouldn't say almost all of them. My fellow managing director we talk almost every day, so I don't have a weekly calls with almost all of them, I shouldn't say almost all of them. My fellow managing director we talk almost every day, so I don't have a weekly call with her. But the others, who I may not speak with, I have weekly calls. We talk about what's happening, what's going well, what is their workload like? I ask them what was the most challenging? Because we all work remote, so that's the other thing. We don't see each other every day right and I'll say what was the most challenging thing and what are you most proud of. And sometimes I had no idea. They're like oh well, I met that candidate at that event. I went to one of my. One of my employees told me that I'm like, I had no idea. Like you went to this networking event and happened to meet the right guy. So you know, just things like that. I try to have the communication very open yeah and they can tell me listen, I'm just not feeling well today or I'm mentally having some issues with home. I'm not going to tell you what it is, but I just need to sit back and I'm like, take the time, whatever you need to do. So I like to think I'm a pretty real manager. Chris: Yeah Well, it sounds like there's a lot of empathy that comes across in those calls, so they feel safe. Yeah, empathy, that comes across in those calls so they feel safe, and I think that's an important thing for a leader to be able to show empathy so that people will be more open and responsive, at whatever level your leadership is in the organization, is an important quality. It's interesting too, I think, that you asked about challenges, because I find it to be helpful to if you're kind of forced to reflect on what was really good about the last week and maybe what was a challenge, because we learn from both. Right, well, that's really good. Anything that you mentioned your stepmother earlier as a mentor, any learning from her that you kind of feel like you're implementing today and kind of carrying on some of the things you learned along the way from her Well, she is my free consultant, so you know, so I call her all the time. Jen: I'm like, okay, more free. Chris: Don't let her listen, she might start charging. Jen: She's fully retired, so she's like no problem. No, I think, being a peer to your clients and telling them no, sometimes you know she's not a yes man and I think I learned that, that you know you've got to push back. When you know, because of your 20 years experience, that something's wrong, you have to call the elephant in the room yeah and you have to say you, you may not skip this recruiting. You know, a lot of times my clients will get very excited about a candidate and they're like, well, can you just come see me tomorrow? And I'm like, no, he cannot because that's too fast for the candidate. They need time to process. You look too eager. I had one client that said it. He said I'm not coming to the first date with a diamond ring. You cannot come to the first date with a diamond ring, you have to let the process happen. But she was always very good about not being a yes man and I've learned that works and it pays off to help your clients be successful. Chris: It's funny that works and it pays off for to help your clients be successful. It's funny that reminds me there's an analogy that applies in all kinds of situations. But it's the cake right. So, just like you were saying, don't be too fast. Yeah, you can have all the right ingredients, mix it up, put it in the oven. If you pull it out too quick, it's going to flop yeah right. So you got to let the process, trust the process, let the process play out, and that applies in so many different aspects of business yeah, and these are humans that we're dealing with. Jen: These are people and they weren't thinking about a job change most likely. Chris: So you've got to let that change management process happen in their head, you know, let them go through that as well so good point to make and we'll repeat it that for what you're doing with these targeted executive searches, most likely the right person was not looking. The ones that are looking there could be one of those red flags there, Not always right, not always, but yeah. So, jen, this has been a fun conversation. Congratulations on your success, thank you. I want to ask you just a few things to wrap up. Yep, so obviously you've been in the search world, or executive search world, for you said 20 plus years. What was your first job? Jen: I remember you asked somebody else this, so I actually worked at a daycare for intellectually disabled kids and adults. Not that fun story that you wanted to hear, but it was fun. I absolutely loved it. I worked every summer. 0:36:20 - Chris: There had to be a lot of life lessons learned in that. Jen: Very challenging. These were kids that were not accepted at other daycares, even for special needs kids. And so I made $4.25 an hour. I was just telling this story because now I'm the chairman of the board for Special Olympics. Chris: Are you really? Jen: I am, and so they asked me my why, and I was like well, I did this for about five years, six years, all through college. I did summer camps and stuff, and so that population has a very soft spot in my heart. Chris: I love how that's come full circle in your life to be able to be doing what you're doing with Special Olympics. As an aside and maybe a plug, isn't Houston hosting the Special Olympics? Jen: next year, next year, I did not tell you that you didn't, but I just know we are right at rice, and is it 2025? Yeah, so that's a big deal, so huge those. Chris: Any listeners in houston, be on the lookout to go support that, what a great cause thank you, appreciate that all right. So my favorite question tex-mex or barbecue? Jen: tex-mex. I'm not a barbecue fan. My husband loves it, but I don't. Chris: Well, you know, you had no problem answering that question. Jen: Some people struggle so I love that In Texas only probably Right. Chris: So another question I get travel ideas from. So if you could do a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Jen: Maine. Chris: Maine. Jen: We. If you could do a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Maine, maine. We went to Maine last year. Oh my God, it's beautiful. We're empty nesters and so we're doing two-week working vacations. We just got back from Santa Fe and then we're hoping the next spring we're going to do Maine. Chris: Good for you. Yeah, I like that, kenny. Jen: Bunk or somewhere around there. Chris: Okay Well, you didn't let me finish a sentence, oh sorry, no, so I know you meant it right. Some people have to think about it. Jen: Oh, I knew. Yeah. Well, we're thinking about where we want to go now, so we've got a whole list. Chris: That's a fun process to go through. Yeah, it is so well, jen. Thanks again for coming. Special Guest: Jen Sudduth.

In this episode, host Victoria Guido interviews Chris Pallatroni, creator of The Standard, a platform dedicated to sharing self-care stories. Chris shares how his interests in gardening and mental wellness fueled the inception of The Standard, which was initially intended to be a landscaping venture. He delves into the hurdles faced while developing the platform, highlighting the struggle for product-market fit and the critical role of integrating technology with human connection to enable meaningful support and interactions. Chris underscores storytelling's pivotal role in enhancing mental health, advocating for the sharing of personal triumphs over adversity to motivate and assist others facing similar challenges. He envisions The Standard as a vast collection of genuine, relatable self-care narratives aimed at reducing the feeling of isolation among individuals. Through inviting users to share their experiences, Chris seeks to leverage human connections to cultivate a community supportive of mental health and personal development. The Standard (https://thestandardapp.com/) Follow The Standard on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/thestandardapp/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@__thestandard__), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/__thestandard__/). Follow Chris Pallatroni on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-pallatroni-9bba3b22/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript:  VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Chris Pallatroni, Founder of The Standard, a storytelling platform where people share stories about self-care. Chris, thank you for joining me. CHRIS: Yeah. Thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure. VICTORIA: Wonderful. So, before we dive into all about The Standard, why don't you just tell me a little bit about what's going on in your world outside of work? Anything fun? Anything exciting? CHRIS: Yeah. Well, first of all, I've got two boys, so for anybody that's listening that has kids, I mean, let's be honest, your life is completely chaotic. So, I've got two boys, one's almost 12, one's almost 10, so all boy, all the time. That's just another way of saying our house is really loud, and there's just tons of stuff happening, sports, whatnot. I also have a wife, a beautiful wife. She's my better half. I've been with her for 24 years. So, between that, I got three cats, not that they take a lot of energy, but there's just a lot of love in our household. So, that's sort of, like, the family side of things. And then I'm an avid gardener. I'm really big into mental health and wellness, which, as we start to talk about The Standard, will become really evident. So, I'm all about just doing the things that you need to do to take care of yourself, so lots of running, lots of working out, lots of just being in nature. I know you're a surfer, so, I mean, let's be honest, water is amazing. So yeah, anything I can do to, like, duck out into nature and spend time with my family. Honestly, there's just not enough time in the day. VICTORIA: What is growing in your garden that you're the most proud of? CHRIS: You don't want to get me started on gardening. So, before I started The Standard, honestly, I thought I was going to be a landscaper, and the name of The Standard actually was going to be applied to a landscaping company. So, I am a professional landscaper. I took all the classes: soil, science, irrigation. I got the degree in design and maintenance. I have a tiny, little property, but I have about 700 plants on my property. So, I know everything on the roses, and grass, and camellias. I mean, I'm that guy that, like, likes to see...nature is just amazing, first of all. And it also has very therapeutic qualities when we start to talk about mental health and well-being, birdsong, water, greenery, sunsets, sunrises. I'm also developing a piece of land. We have a house we're building, and it's three acres. So, I'm in the process of building out, like, what I'm going to just describe as the most amazing garden anybody's ever seen. I really take a lot of pride in gardening. I'm very disciplined and very specific on how things grow. And so, I've got a property that's about an acre and a half I'm planting, which will probably have, like, 20,000 plants on it when it's all said and done. VICTORIA: So, you have 700 plants now, and you plan to have 20,000, so you don't want to choose favorites. There's nothing...you got to, like, spread the love around. CHRIS: God, it's like saying, which child do you love more? I mean, right now on my property the ones that currently stand out is I've got a couple of these Eden Rose bushes that I've trained to climb up. I've got three of them. The one in the front of my house is about 20 feet tall at this point. So, I've trained it to grow up the entire side of my house. In full bloom, it will have about 300 roses on it in full bloom. And so, an Eden Rose has about a 220 petal count. So, it's a very dense rose. They are a pain in the butt to prune, but they're pretty spectacular in full bloom. VICTORIA: That sounds really beautiful. And I hope you send me some pictures [laughs] after the show. Send them to me in an email because I want to see...I love growing, but I do not have a green thumb. I usually try to pick what is most likely to survive [laughs]. CHRIS: That's my wife's strategy. She's like, what can I not kill? And, surprisingly, even with, like, cactuses, she still finds a way to kill some of them, so...[laughs] VICTORIA: Some people have it, some people don't. I do agree on the therapeutic side. And I'm curious, too, having this background, how did you go from landscape and this interest in growing things to starting businesses? CHRIS: Yeah, you know, the landscaping actually picked up at a much later stage. So, if I rewind my entrepreneurial journey, it started in 2004. I got mixed up with some guys as I was finishing up my degree in economics and finance. I was like, look, I don't have, like, a 4.9 GPA, so I'll probably need some sort of internship that starts to separate me. Anyways, got mixed up with some guys that were running a franchise painting company, took part in that, really loved the idea of seeing something grow. Did really well on that internship. You really ran, like, a mini-painting division of this larger company, so knocking on doors, producing painting jobs, so forth, and so on. At the end of that, which was a really intense about a year internship, they said, "Hey, we're going to build this marketing company. Do you want in?" And I was like, "Let's do it." And so, what I really wanted...and that was, like, my first major let's start a business. And I loved the idea of taking something from an idea to...the idea was, could we sell it for a hundred million dollars? So, the money was attributed to it, but I wanted to see something grow. And so, we went at it for, like, 15 years. We did end up selling, not at a hundred. We sold it for, like, 70 million. But we did really well. It was a bootstrapped company. We built this massive national marketing company. It's sort of like match.com for contracting. You can take a consumer that's interested in remodeling their house and connect them to a local contractor. And we built that all from, like, a bedroom with plyboard and literally rotary phones all the way to a national brand that's...I think we became the second largest in the space. It's still the company I still work for. As I build this other business, I'm still working at that. We're pushing 250 million now. But the concept of building something and selling it I thought was really intriguing. Landscaping was just a hobby that came in much later in my life. Thought that was going to be my next venture. I decided to pivot after getting all of the education, mainly because I wanted to build something that had application for everybody. And what I started to realize in landscaping is the average consumer doesn't have $50,000 to dump on their backyard. And what I didn't want to do is work for rich people and wineries. I really wanted to build a magical, little space for the average person. But I also started to realize most people don't have that type of income, which then pivoted me to The Standard, which I thought had more universal application. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. So, I love that because there's, like, a common phrase you hear about tech where every company is also a tech company now. So, it's really interesting to hear and, like, to hear about you think about growth and how it applies to businesses and that care that you put into it as well. CHRIS: Yeah. I mean, I think everything is tech-related in a lot of different ways. I don't know, I think at least with The Standard, like, there's such a human element, and I still need to figure out so much about it. But as tech-driven as we get, we're still a social species. We still want human connection. And maybe at one point far off in the future, like, a robot can replace some of that, but the human connection, the human story, the ability to feel connected and not isolated or alone has very profound impacts on people's mental health and well-being. And so, as much as I still have to figure out, I try not to over-index on too much tech and try to keep things very authentic and organic. Because I think when you do that right and you can do the matching of a consumer that's interested in a specific story with someone that has gone through that experience who can share that story, that connection is very profound. So, I do think it is a blend of tech, but I try not to dive too deep into the tech side of things. VICTORIA: Right. It's more that you need technology as a tool to solve the problems of the people that you're trying to work for or trying to, like, provide services for. So, it sounds like, to recap a little bit, you were part of growing this company. You were able to build it and sell it for 70 million. And then, you decided to, like, keep doing it. You're like, that was fun. Let's do another one [laughs]. CHRIS: Well, I mean, in all honesty, I think some of the challenges become when you're starting a company, which is incredibly invigorating. But if you're starting a company in an area that you don't have expertise...so, although I know a lot about mental health and wellness, I've read hundreds of books. I interviewed lots of people. I hired you guys to do some market research for me. So, I'm not naive, but I've never built a platform that does what I'm trying to do. And in all my research, I haven't exactly even seen a platform that does exactly what I do. So, it's hard to have that perfect measuring stick. And so, you know, what I've realized along the journey is it's really easy to spend money, and it's really hard to find product-market fit. And so, what I've chosen to do, and maybe it takes a little bit longer to get there, is rather than, like, go all in, quit my day job, and really just financially stress the crap out of myself and my wife, I still have a day job. I get paid exceptionally well. I'm very senior in my company. It's not overly stressful, but it also pays the bills. And so, I think one of the things I've learned about being an entrepreneur is you've got to enjoy the journey. And so, I do enjoy what I still do, and it serves a very valuable purpose. And it gives me still the freedom to play around with The Standard, to still do the things that I want to do. Sure, I can't burn as many hours on it, but at the same time, if I quit this job, my runway would highly compress, and maybe that's good for some people, but there's still just so much I have to figure out. So, I need the runway. VICTORIA: I can relate to that, and I think that's a really common story for people who have a great idea, and they need the time and space to find the right product-market fit to move forward and then make the big investment with your time and all the, like, other financial investments you would need. So, maybe to go back to the beginning a little bit, what led you to think of starting The Standard in the first place? CHRIS: So, I'll try to say this as succinctly as possible. Life is really hard for a lot of people, you know, and you can dice it up in a lot of different ways, whether we're talking about, like, you know, global events that happen, be it war, be it COVID, you know, anything on a very large level. But even on an individual level, like, we lose people. People are dealing with weight issues, how to eat healthy, stress. There's a lot. When we start to think about the concept of mental health and well-being, it is overwhelming. And I'm built for discipline. I've always been that way. I'm incredibly disciplined as a person. Some things may feel like they come a little easier to me, but I also look at like, oh my God, I got to worry about like, how do I sleep right? And how do I eat right? And then, how do I exercise? And then you got to be grateful for stuff, and then have social friends, and then be with your family. Like, I mean, adulting is tough; let's just be honest. And so, a lot of the concept behind The Standard was I have the freedom to explore a lot of this stuff. I've had the luxury to read hundreds of books and, meet so many people, and really invest a lot as to educating myself about these various topics that I think are important. I also have the luxury to deploy a lot of these strategies in my personal life, and it's a privilege to be able to do that. And a lot of people don't have that. They're struggling. They're working multiple jobs. They don't have a lot of time in the day. Maybe they're commuting. They don't have the luxury to take care of themselves. And that's just the Western world. Do you want to, like, dive into the Global South or start to look at, like, Ukraine or stuff like that? Like, there's just people, like, literally just trying to make it through the day, let alone be grateful about something or eat healthy. And so, I started to realize, like, God, if I think this is even remotely challenging, what does somebody else feel about their mental health and well-being? And so, that was sort of the jump off of, like, it is tough to maintain your sanity. It is tough to do all of those things. Is there a way that I can make that process easier for people? And so, that just led to a rabbit hole that started about six months before COVID hit, so late 2019. I spent a lot of time researching. I read several hundred books on habit formation and neuroscience and all these different topics. And, I mean, to the point where I was reading every morning, typing notes of these books, mind mapping this out, looking for the connection of all these topics. And what I was trying to figure out is what is the least amount of information somebody needs to know to have the most profound effect on their life? And what I came to as a conclusion was most people will not read a book or listen to a podcast. Some will, but the average person won't. They don't have the time, the desire. But everybody's got a problem they're trying to solve, whatever that problem may be, and if you could take somebody that has a problem and you could find a way to connect them to somebody who had that problem but is a little farther down the road. So, let's pick something pretty simple, like weight loss. I've interviewed a lot of people on my podcast this year that have lost 100 pounds, which is a really big number. And even if it's not a hundred pounds, you want to lose 20 pounds. The point being is that weight is a big issue for a lot of people. It affects their self-esteem, their body image. There's a number of things that, like, impact that. But if you could connect somebody who's really struggling to lose weight with somebody who has lost that weight and could share their story, how they felt, the habits they've deployed, and most importantly, they could talk about that experience, what would happen is the person that's been through that issue, if you will, would use a set of language that would be very specific and would resonate with the person that hasn't overcome the challenge yet. And this is what's so unique about it is: I don't know what that particular challenge is like. I've never had that particular issue. I won't know the language to use. But if you've ever talked to somebody who has lost a significant amount of weight, they will use words, and they will give examples that only somebody who's struggling with it would resonate with. I remember doing an interview, and a lady was like, "God, you know," she's like, "I was so overweight. I would be very thoughtful of getting on the ground because I wasn't sure if I could get back up. Or I'd be very thoughtful of the chair I sat on in case it broke." I mean, these are the things I'm like, unless you're overweight, you don't think about that. And so, my idea was like, could I take somebody who's overcome some of these problems, get them to share some of those self-care stories that they used to solve whatever that problem was, and then create a mechanism in which somebody who was struggling with, in this case, weight loss, that they could type in, "How do you deal with weight loss?" and they could connect to other people that have developed the habits and the mindsets that helped them through that? And weight loss is just an example, but you could pick anything from racism to depression to domestic violence and so forth and so on. The caveat there is you need a mechanism to connect the person that's overcome the challenge with the person that's still going through it. So, you got to get a lot of people on the other side of the tunnel to share their story and to know that they're doing it maybe not to monetize it but to do it for the benefit of other people who were like them at one point. VICTORIA: Yeah, if I can try to summarize what you meant when you said, like, what's the least amount of information to have the most profound realization on how to impact your life? It sounds like what you discovered was that it's human connection to other humans who have had the same experience and survived it and overcome those challenges. CHRIS: Yeah, without a doubt, because I think when you're struggling with an issue, you tend to think you're alone. You tend to think the way you're thinking about your addiction to something, or your weight loss, or your body image; you tend to think, oh, this is just me. And what motivates somebody who's in that mindset is to hear somebody else who can use a certain set of language that helps them realize, wow, I'm not alone. There is other people that have gone through this particular issue. And what that does is it starts to open up the door, open up their mind in a way of, wow, change can happen. Now, you can't copy other people's habits. It doesn't exactly work that way. But what it can do is at least give you a starting place to say, "Here's somebody who I feel is like me in some ways, and they've made it to the other side. Here's some of the habits, and the mindsets, routines that they specifically have that have helped them get through this. Maybe I can try some of those on, at least as a starting place, and then I can modify them as time..." So, it really starts with the mindset and the clarity of I'm not alone and maybe there is some hope. And I think that's a really big thing when you're talking about some of these very large issues that people run into on a day-to-day basis. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. VICTORIA: So, what lessons did you learn from your previous experience in starting a business are you taking into what you're doing now with The Standard? CHRIS: Oh my God, so many lessons. Well, I mean, here's the brutal reality is: I've chosen to go in an industry that doesn't exactly have carryover effects. I was in marketing, dealing with homeowners and contractors, and now I'm diving into mental health. So, I, unfortunately, don't get to, like, flex my black book and, you know, voilà myself into, like, success here. I've also chosen to go from marketing and generating leads to now I'm trying to build a platform, which apparently is one of the hardest things you could possibly do. But here's one that I really do take away, and it's probably not in the way that you actually intended that I would answer, but here's the biggest lesson I've taken away. When I built the first company, Jason Polka was our CEO, and Gabe Luna...it was three of us that really started it. So much of that entire journey...especially after the first five years of building the infrastructure, and you started to move out of the basement, and you had a corporate office, and, you know, you felt a little bit more legit. You started generating 10, 20 million dollars a year in revenue. I'd say from year, like, five through the time we sold it, I just wanted to sell the company. So much of the conversation became around, when is this going to happen? And it was always a grind. I mean, building a company is just tough. I mean, maybe some people, it works out, and everything's great, but it's really tough. A lot of businesses don't succeed, and we were very lucky that we did. But so much of it was me just trying to check off that final box of, like, I just want them to say, "We did it." It wasn't even really the payout. It was, just, I want to know that we were capable of doing it. And what happened is there was so much of that ten years where I wasn't enjoying the journey. I mean, don't get me wrong, like, I love the people I worked with, some great friendships. But it was so much of like, how do we fast forward this a little bit? And so, once the day happened that it was sold, and especially as I started to embark on this other side, I said, look, I'm now in my, like, early 40s. Like, that can't happen again. I mean, maybe I never sell the next company. Maybe I'm working on this for a decade or two decades. I need to enjoy the journey. Like, my kids are young once. Like, I've got this wife. I've got this life. Like, selling a company is great, but it is not the defining thing of your life. Like, you still need to live your life. And so, the big lesson I took away from it is how do I enjoy the journey as I go through this process? And I'll be honest, that is a big mind f, if you will, like, it's not an easy thing to do because as entrepreneurs, you're very much like, well, what metrics, and what's the next milestone? And dah, dah, dah, dah. And, like, dude, it's brutal. So, I'm really trying to, like, enjoy the process, even if the process is a struggle. VICTORIA: What are your top strategies for enjoying the process or making it fun? CHRIS: Well, one, take care of your mental health and your well-being [laughs], whatever that is for you. I do a lot of weekly planning. And so, when I do my weekly planning, it literally will come down to I look at my schedule, and I make sure I get my runs in there. I get my gardening in there. I get my time at my kids' events, my time with my wife. I get my workouts. I make sure I eat healthy. I do everything that I can to take as good of care of Chris as I possibly can. You know, a cliché is to say, but you can't pour from an empty cup. So, if you want to give your best to your company, your family, your friends, your community, whatever, like, you really do need to prioritize yourself. Self-care is not selfish. So, that's the number one thing I do. I'd say the other thing, too, is how do you deal with anxiety? How do you deal with this constant...and anxiety is one of the most pronounced mental health issues on our planet. 350 million people deal with this annually. It's easy to start to think about the future and to fill in the gap with the worst-case scenario, to get anxiety of, like, oh my God, I didn't do this, or I shouldn't be doing that. And so, learning to just take a deep breath, do the best job you can. Let your intuition carry you, and not be so judgmental when it doesn't turn out the way you want it. Like, I wish I had much more success at this stage of the business than I do. But I'm still making forward progress, and I'm enjoying the process, and I'm learning stuff. And could I be faster? Yeah, probably. So, I try not to over-index on what I'm not doing, and I try to just take the best next step possible and just trust it will all work out but be okay if it didn't. That's easier said than done sometimes, especially if you've never had success. I think part of it is the fact that I've been successful in selling a company. I mean, in a lot of ways, like, hey, I know I could. Maybe I can do it again. Maybe I can't. And I'm okay either way that that pans out. VICTORIA: I think that part about being okay if it doesn't is so important. And tying that together to what you mentioned earlier about being financially stable enough to invest in what you want to invest in, like, it's a really big, important thing for founders. And I think if you're constantly worried about how am I going to pay myself? How am I going to pay my bills? You're not really going to be focused on building the best product, or actually solving the problem, or being willing to pivot in a way you need to to create something that is going to last and be really impactful for people. I think that's really interesting. In climbing, there's some...it teaches me that because I have some projects that probably I might never complete them [laughs]. They're really hard. The people who actually create videos of themselves climbing it are, like, six feet tall, and I'm never going to be six feet tall, but I just try to enjoy the hike up to the climb. I enjoy going up to this little boulder and just, like, touching it and feeling it. So, I'm curious if you could say more about how are you thinking The Standard will solve that problem and, like, create that connection for you and, like, solve your anxieties as, like, a founder about, is this company working well enough? Do you connect people in that same way as well? CHRIS: There's a famous quote that says, "It takes seven years to become an overnight success." I mean, maybe in some ways, it even takes longer, depending on what you're trying to build here. And, I don't know, success is somewhat arbitrary. You know, like, I remember when I got the call that we sold our first company, which was the moment I was waiting for, I remember getting the call. I was driving home. "Hey, we did this. Here's your payout." I did not feel any more successful in that moment. Like, it wasn't like that checked off the box. I'm like, well, there I go. I'm super successful now. It was like, now what? You know, my kids didn't, like, hug me and be like, "Oh, successful dad sold companies," you know, it wasn't. It was like, you know, life continued. And it was just such a powerful reminder of so much of the significance that we put on things is like, it's us. Like, I don't want to say nobody else cares because, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs are trying to build products that, you know, change the world, make a meaningful difference to people's lives. And we do put a disproportionate burden on ourselves of, like, God, if I don't do this, maybe it just doesn't get done. I think, for me, when I'm building The Standard, I try to, one, I always try to think of like, enjoy the journey. Am I doing things that I enjoy doing? So, we started a podcast last year. I mean, The Standard, like, so just a quick on timeframe, I mean, I spent a year building it. So, I did all this research for about two years, including hiring you guys. I got to the place where I'm like, okay, I think I got a concept, not product-market fit. I just got a concept, and I want to start to build that out into reality. Hired a designer, really great designer. Found him, you know, cold-called him, got him involved. Took us six months to build literally, like, a wireframe of like, it could look like this. And then I was like, okay, great. Now I'm going to go sell that to a VC and, like, convince him to give me millions of dollars. And I was like, and then I quickly realized, like, you absolutely have nothing at the moment, Chris. Like, there's nothing here. There's, like, you think you got something, like, you've got nothing. Like, there's no users. I mean, you got literally nothing here. And I was like, okay, great, so nobody's going to give me any money for this. Where do I go from here? And then I was like, well, I need to build something to see how people interact with it. So, then I decided to go through a no-code platform when I spent ten months teaching myself how to build something using no-code. So, I used bubble.io, which was a really great product. Now, that was a big mind cluster right there because I'm not a coder. I'm sort of the visionary of a product. That's, like, I'm not the technical expertise. But I didn't have a CTO. So, I was like, I need to solve for this problem. So, I taught myself how to use this. That was incredibly painful but incredibly rewarding because I know how to build something. So, then I built this, and then we beta test the launch, but now I'm like, okay, [inaudible 24:46] I built this, but I don't even know if it's a product-market fit. I don't even know if I built the right thing yet. Now, I got to see people who will interact with it. And then I was like, well, then how do you even get this thing to be exposed to the world? Like, it is just every step along the way; there's some mountain that seems insurmountable. You find a way to get to the peak, and then you realize there's a larger mountain that's [laughs] right behind it. And so, then it led down to, like, how do I get people to be aware of what I built? Played around with that for six months. And then, I was like, I got to start a podcast, like, now I'll interview people. And so, it's just a constant iteration of, like, toying around with some stuff. And look, there's plenty of things I do that I'm like, that clearly fails. And I think the question I ask myself a lot with the things that don't work is, did you give them enough time to be successful? Did you go about them in the right way and then decide to pivot? And, like, you won't always know all the answers to that. So, I think the point in giving sort of that timeline right there is it's a constant evolution, and you just do the best job you can and be okay with how the sort of the cards fall. VICTORIA: Yeah. And if you fail or it doesn't work how you expect it, it's like, well, did I learn something? And did I have fun doing it? [laughs] CHRIS: And if you take care of yourself along the way and you haven't sacrificed your own mental health and your well-being, your relationships with your kids, your partner, whoever it is, then at least you, like, if you fail, you're not like, and now I'm 30 pounds overweight. I'm miserable. My mental health is suffering. Like, you've got to balance that out. And so, I think that's going back to enjoying the journey as like, don't lose sight of the things that are really important. Building a company, yes, important, and for some people, it is really important. But at the end of the day, your health, your sanity are the most important things that you have. And so, I see all too often that a lot of entrepreneurs and just people in general are willing to literally kick that to the curb to chase some prestige, some recognition, some financial gain. And look, man, like, you know, there's plenty of rich people out there that are completely miserable, that are unhappy. I always think of Steve Jobs a lot. He had really lot of good...he did a commencement speech at Stanford when he was diagnosed with cancer. And, I mean, this is one of the most successful business people on our planet. Apple is the most successful company today at three trillion dollars or so market cap. And here's the visionary of the company. And when he was diagnosed with cancer, all he wanted was more time. It wasn't like, oh, I need more time to build another product. It's like the dude just wanted to be around longer. It didn't matter how many billions of dollars he had or products. Those were things that sort of fell to the wayside. It was all about his health. So, point being is like, just over-indexing on success and not really looking at what is success; success is your mental health, your well-being. That is real success. VICTORIA: Yeah. Wow. I can relate to that, too. I had, like, at a very young age, decided, oh, I'm going to be, like, an IT project manager. And then I got my PMP certification and I was like, oh, well, what do I do now? [laughs] What's the next thing? And it's just like, keep going and going and going. So, enjoy the moment, you know, love the journey, and prioritize that above those things. And that includes, like, learning, learning all these different parts of, like, how to build a business and how to build product. It reminds me of a journey that we hear where you could have a great idea and you're like, oh, I need to design it, and then I need to build it. And then, like, a year later, you're like, wow, I haven't talked to any users yet [laughs]. It's like, I don't actually know anything about what people want. And that's a really difficult thing to do. And it's a very emotional journey as well to go out and talk to people and try to ask questions in a way that doesn't give you false positives or false negatives and being able to leave your ego to the side and actually connect with people and hear about their problems. So, how has that been for you? Has there been anything in your discovery process that has surprised you and caused you to pivot in direction? CHRIS: And although you didn't ask the question in this way, a recommendation I would have for a lot of people and, you know, if you read The Lean Startup, it's a good book. It's one worth reading. I read a lot of product books and stuff. I would say, like, imagine you have no money. How will you test your concept? Like, so, like, I came into building this with some capital behind me, my own capital. And it's just easy to spend money, and not that I was naive to think spending money you do need to invest in some things, but I wish I had a lot less money than I did coming into it because I would have spent a lot less money. And I think you don't need a tremendous amount of money to start to get that user feedback that you're suggesting. I think there's some very organic ways that you could do it. And you really got to imagine, like, you have nothing. Like, how will you test this with $100? I was listening to a podcast episode the other day on the founder of Boston Dynamics. He was being interviewed, and it was a really cool one. Boston Dynamics is one of the leading robotic companies out there. And this guy had, you know, started the company 30 years ago, and he was walking through some of his early days. And he's like, he was talking about building the pogo stick robot and how he only had, like, I think it was, like, it was either a hundred or a thousand dollars to, like, build this robot, or maybe it was 3,000. It was a really, really low amount. And he basically was trying to build a robot that, like, jumped up and down on, like, a benign budget himself. It was a complete failure, but he learned some things through it. But he had enough success in that that when he then pitched that concept to the next person, I think it was, like, some congressional person, they gave him, like, a $250,000 budget, which was, like, back in 1980. But the point being is like, he had so little to start with, but he was still able to get some success. Versus if he had had 250,000, I don't know that he would have figured it out at that moment. He would have spent a lot more money. And so, I think for entrepreneurs that are starting something out, you're so right: the product-market fit is huge. It's hard not to get false positives. It's hard not to just hear what you want to hear. And so, what I've learned is that, like, there's a difference between what people say and what people do. And what you need to be doing is paying attention to what people actually do, not what people say. I interviewed lots of coaches across the planet. I'd share this idea. And, I mean, I had a phenomenal, like, 90% of them were like, "Chris, this is amazing." They would share some of their personal videos with me. And I'm like, wow, God, like, everybody thinks this is a great idea. And then, I started to realize like, it's probably because I'm decently looking. I can talk to people well. Like, there's a little bit of a me factor. I was like, well, what happens when I take me out of the equation? Will still 90% of people still think it's a good idea? And the answer was like, no. It completely changes. If I'm not there to navigate or provide the narrative, which, as entrepreneurs and founders, we're typically the storyteller, but if you remove me and I just show you it, you'll be like, "Ah, it's cool." But, I don't have enough of the expertise in product design and the sticky factor. I haven't found the right combination for somebody just to interact with and be like, "This is pretty sweet. I want to use it." So, going back to your original question, is like, you need to do more of that, and you need to learn how to do that stuff. I am still like you at surfing. I'm a novice at this. Like, I'm out there trying, but I am crashing all the time. And I am constantly trying to get back up and figure out how can I do this better and not provide an illusion that I'm getting it right, really paying attention to what do users actually like and not like? I am far from figuring that out. I'm still dedicated to doing it, but by no means have I hit a home run here. VICTORIA: What keeps you motivated? What keeps you going and trying to solve that question? CHRIS: You know, it goes back to an original statement I made with you is like, life is so hard for so many people. I jokingly will tell people, I said this a lot when I was interviewing coaches, is like, look, I'm very aware of my privilege. I'm a white, male who lives in Northern California in the U.S. I was born in the '80s. Like, I did not grow up with, like, this insurmountable, you know, adversity that I had to overcome. Like, there's a lot that was easier for me to obtain in my life. And look, I work really hard. I am incredibly focused. I put in a lot of work. I'm very focused in that way. But I also just recognize, like, it might have been different if I was born somewhere else, if I looked a different way, if I didn't have access to the resources that I did. And so, my point with that statement is that I am a massive believer that whatever excess currencies you have, time, capital, energy, whatever it is, it is our obligation to help as many people on this planet in whatever way we think we can help them. There are 800 million people on our planet that don't have clean drinking water, which is mind-boggling to me, considering the age we live in. I mean, we take it for granted you turn on the faucet and water comes out. That is a luxury that we have in living in the United States and in the Western Hemisphere. I mean, when you think about 800 million, that's almost 1 out of 8 people that don't have clean drinking water. And that's just drinking water, let alone access to vaccines or whatever you may choose. And so, the point that I'm making is that for those of us that have excess of anything, and maybe it's just time, or maybe it is you have a lot of money, we should be doing the best job we can to help other people in the ways that we think would help them. For me, I'm focused on mental health and well-being. For somebody else, that might be providing good food, or medicine, or whatever it may be, and that's okay. We just need more people contributing to, hopefully, you know, lift as many people up to the point that we all have good lives. That's what keeps me going is the fact that, like, I don't take for granted for one second how easy my life is. VICTORIA: I love that. And I like that you're trying to build technology that helps people and isn't just trying to, like, make the most money you can, or try to, like [laughs], flip it around or just share something that, you know, is really personal to you and, like, really is meaningful to you. So, I really appreciate you sharing that with me. What does success look like six months from now or even five years from now? CHRIS: Look, success for me is pretty much what I've stated this whole episode is, like, I'm taking good care of myself. I'm very present in my life with my wife, my kids, my friends doing things that make Chris happy. That's what success looks like. Now, clearly, we're here talking about The Standard and growing, and so I'd love to see more progress being made. I'd love to see more users on the platform. I'd like to be learning and figuring out, how do I help people share their story in a way that empowers them to share that story? How do I get people to want to share their story that don't feel like they have to be paid to do so? You know, what I find so interesting when I talk to so many people and, you know, I ran 45 episodes of our podcast this year. So, I talked to a lot of people that have gone through some adversity, and they'll all say the same thing, "Dude, I will help anybody that is going through what I've..." Like, nobody wants to see somebody struggle, especially when you know how hard adversity is, whatever that may be for you. You don't want to see other people struggle because you know how painful that is. I want to see people who are willing to quote, unquote, "give back" and say, "Look, if I can share a few things about how I've navigated my adversity, whatever that adversity is, because it will benefit other people going through this, I don't need to be paid for that. I just want to share it because it's sort of the right thing to do. It's sort of a pay it forward." I think in today's age, like, in the creator economy, like, everybody's like, "Well, I'm not going to help out unless I get paid." And, like, look, that might be a very privileged statement that I'm making, that I have the luxury. But when I build The Standard, right or wrong, and some people would argue, "This is, like, the dumbest business model ever, Chris," is like, I don't think about monetization. Like, I'm not like, how do I get paid on this? Is it ads? Do I charge people? Like, I'm just trying to build something that I think actually will help people, and I'm trying to do it for the right reason. So, it's people before profit. But, at one point, there has to be money involved to some extent. But I don't put the money part first. I put the people. How do I get that right? So, my hope would be, in 5, 3 years, whatever the time would be, is that more people buy into the message and they're like, look, if all it takes is me to spend 20, 30 minutes to create a couple of videos on my habits and share a little bit of my story, and there's a way to memorialize some of the things that I've learned for the benefit of other people going through it, that's great. That's a drop in the bucket of my time. That if enough people started to do that, it would send a signal to a wider swatch of our community, or people, or species that it's okay to share some of the things that make you who you are. And if you did that, it lets somebody else do that. And if you get enough people doing that, you build a phenomenal habit bank, if you will, of just stories that other people can leverage for their own benefit. That would be success from my perspective. I try not to attach a certain amount of users. It's really just like, can I start to convince more and more people that you probably already have some information that would be really valuable to other people? I'm just trying to organize it in a way that someone can find it, but I need people to share their story because the platform is not about me. Although I'm on it, it's not about Chris Pallatroni. It's about you. I mean, I'm sure you've gone through things in your life that you've learned, and you've navigated that. If you could share that in a way that was authentic and easily organized, other people would hear your story and be like, God damn, that's me too. I'm just trying to get more people to do that. That would be success in my mind. VICTORIA: Well, it reminds me of a program I'm involved with. You might have heard of Big Sister, Little Sister, or Big Brother, Little Brother. It's a mentorship program. So, you have a one-on-one relationship with someone who's...like, the little sister I have really reminds me of myself when I was that age, like, you know, early high school awkwardness, trying to figure out how to navigate friendships and family life and getting a lot of pressure on, like, what are you going to do with your career? Even though you're still, like, really young. So, it's interesting to think about how could you scale that and, like, have more content, like, take some of the little bits of conversations we have and, like, share that with other people who are going through the same thing. CHRIS: Yeah, it's exactly that. And there's lots of stuff out there. I mean, you think of, like, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous like, in a lot of ways, that is it. Or people that have gone through school shootings, like, they find a lot of comfort in talking to other people that have navigated that. Like, there is no topic that does not touch mental health and well-being. Like, there's none. Like, I mean, I've read them all. And so, it's just about taking people...and this is the beauty of it, like, sure, there are experts out there, Mel Robbins, Tony Robbins, you know, they've read. Their whole life is about self-development and empowerment. But if you take an average person somewhere in the world and maybe they have read notebooks on self-development or any of that, and you just start to dissect their experience as a human, what I know to be true is that they'll say, "I went through this," whatever this may be. And if you start to unravel the, how'd you cope with it? What did you learn? What habits did you develop? What mindsets did you develop? There is profound wisdom. It may not be textbook. They may not understand the science behind it, but what they will share is something that is very real and that it's said in a very authentic way. And the words they use are incredibly powerful that if you could just capture that in a very authentic way and store it, and most importantly, find a way to organize it so it's easy for somebody to find, that's what this is about. And so, there's lots of this that exist out there. There's just no central mechanism that tries to tie this all together. And so, that's sort of what I'm attempting to do. VICTORIA: That's really cool. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story and talking about what you've been building. Is there anything else that you would like to promote? CHRIS: No, not at all. I mean, I would just say, like, if anybody's interested, like, the platform that we have is thestandardapp.com. It's not an app; that's just the URL for it. Or you can find us on pretty much any social channel. It's just The Standard. We do run a podcast, which is The Standard Podcast, where we interview a lot of the coaches. But any one of those things will give you a really good idea of what we're trying to do. And if you feel like you've got something of value, we'd always love for more people to come on and just share their story in a way that's authentic to them. And that's really what we're about. VICTORIA: Awesome. Thank you so much. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on X @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, we have a discussion with Devlin Lyles, President of Improving, about AI's evolving role in business. With his extensive tech leadership background, Devlin offers insightful perspectives on strategically integrating AI and shifting workforce mindsets. He explains how AI enhances personal productivity and compels a transition from manual tasks to advanced system management. Other notable topics include vendor resiliency, learning cultures, and personal growth's influence on business innovation. Wrapping up, Devlin shares his views on AI's future impact through emerging tools and personal assistants that boost productivity. Join us for this enriching exchange at the intersection of technology, leadership experience, and work-life harmony. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Devlin discusses his transition from a young programmer to a leader in technology, emphasizing the role of AI in changing business strategies and operations. We explore the psychological aspect of AI adoption in businesses, addressing how the workforce adapts to the enhanced productivity and evolving roles that AI tools bring. Devlin makes an analogy between the historical rise of ATMs and their impact on bank tellers, to the current transition from manual task execution to strategic AI system management. We dissect common misconceptions in AI implementation, such as the belief that data must be perfectly curated and the pitfalls of building bespoke AI solutions from scratch. Devlin highlights the importance of focusing on problem-solving over the technology itself, encouraging companies to differentiate between truly valuable AI applications and those simply following trends. The conversation delves into vendor resiliency, with a focus on the legal protection offered by large companies like Microsoft for their AI services. We discuss the cultivation of a learning culture within Improving and the impact personal development has on managing technology and fostering business innovation. Devlin shares insights on the future of AI, such as the potential of a "cloud of things" and personal AI tools that can enhance daily productivity and support memory. We examine the transformative effect of AI on mundane tasks and its potential for significant impact on industries like logistics, supply chain, and manufacturing. Devlin and I reflect on the importance of hobbies and personal interests, such as golf and video games, for maintaining a balanced life while engaging with technological advancements. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Improving GUESTS Devlin LilesAbout Devlin TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Devlin Liles, President of Improving. Devlin is a leading expert in the application and use of AI for businesses. Devlin shares several helpful ideas relating to AI for businesses and believes that a business's readiness for AI is mostly psychological. Devlin, I want to thank you for taking time to join us today. Why don't we start by just telling us a little bit about yourself and your background and your role with improving Sure. Devlin: So Devlin Lyles. That seems like an odd thing to say. So I'm a technologist by kind of trade and training, so I started writing software when I was very young. I was 8 when I started programming. Chris: My dad got me into it. Devlin: I started my first software company when I was 16 in high school, building used car websites and that kind of thing Right at the kind of dot-com bubble expansion, and so decided I was going to not do that as a career. I was going to become a professional soccer player. That didn't work, so I kind of fell back into it as a hobby and kind of continued on that. Chris: Most programmers think of a professional soccer player as a dream, right yeah absolutely. Devlin: And so I ended up kind of falling back into my hobby as a career and then came up through kind of corporate IT at Tys Foods and then got into IT consulting and been doing that for the last 15 years. So that's a bit about me. Chris: Okay, and let's talk a little bit about improving where you serve as president. Tell us a little bit about what improving does in your role there, and then you know one of the things I really want to focus on, as you know, is things on most people's minds over the last 12-18 months is AI, so it's kind of couched in that context. Devlin: Sure. So my role with improving has kind of evolved over the years. So I actually started as a consultant delivering to our clients and I came in kind of two and a half three years in and so we have an equity share model. So I grew an equity share at improving and then took over as president here in Houston in 2017. My global role for improving is chief consulting officer, so I own client delivery, thought leadership, go-to-market and employee growth kind of that space, and so AI has been a big part of that conversation. Now the interesting thing is I get to live in a time machine somewhat in this space of AI has been a big part of that story for us for five to seven years. The world with chatGPT, kind of making it a part of the zeitgeist, is really catching up, and so it's cool to have these conversations and really talk about it, because a lot of our excitement and like oh, it's going to be utopia from 2017-2018, when there were some big strides being made forward and we get to kind of relive with everybody else. Chris: Interesting. Yeah, so you're living it for the second time. Devlin: Yeah, and it's. The thing is that, going through at the second time, you get somewhat of the hindsight in real time, which is interesting. Yeah, because we ended up helping a lot of customers apply some of these technologies, and technology always has this kind of pull to off the shelf right Systems. We used to pay tens of millions of dollars to build custom right. Think about CRM, a client contact management system, right Almost everybody has today. Chris: Yeah. Devlin: In the 1990s that was a multi tens of millions of dollar project for only the biggest companies to really have a unified customer relationship management system. And today I can go, put in a credit card and sign up for HubSpot or Salesforce or Dynamics right off the shelf. There's this pull to off the shelf that happens in technology, which leads to the middle market and small businesses being able to take advantage of what used to be incredibly expensive technology and that's actually what we're seeing in the AI space is it's driving from. I no longer need 100 million to approach this problem. I can actually apply this for 20 bucks a month, yeah. Chris: It's a great observation and yeah it's so true that it becomes, I guess better, efficient and more economical right Each time, I guess, as technology is with us and develops longer. That's a great kind of segue. I want to just kind of start with what are some of the key factors a business should consider when evaluating their readiness for adopting AI into the business. Devlin: Interesting For adopting AI into the business. Readiness is mostly psychological, because there are pieces in the business today that you can do better. We break this into kind of three parts when we talk to business leaders about this. One is how do you do your job much more effectively, right? What's the superhuman version of Chris? Right, there's AI tools to make that happen. Like, I'm a very well augmented human, I have tools that analyze my notes and make sure that I don't forget things. I've got tools that keep reminders and stuff on my personal network. Now, they're not spamming my friends with, like text messages to buy things, but it's going. Hey, you haven't talked to Bob In two months. Here's what you talked about the last time, so I can reach out to Bob. Hey, man, we haven't caught up. How's your wife doing? How's your son doing? Like those kind of things. That's the superhuman version of me, because I want to stay connected with my friends Just bad at it and so it covers that gap for me. So that's the first part is like that personal productivity side, which is mainly just a resistance to change. That you'd see in any technology adoption. It's psychological, organizational. People have tied their identity to the work they do and so changing that means like an existential crisis sometimes, right? Sure, think about a bank teller when the ATM came out. Right Now, we still employ a lot of bank tellers, but their jobs drastically changed. It's that moment where we're not going to get rid of a bunch of humans and have robots doing those jobs. What we're going to do is change the job of the human to guiding them, controlling and managing the robots. Chris: I think that's an important point to kind of reemphasize for the listeners, because I think so much that's out there. You see these news headlines and articles. I think people think robots are going to take over the world and I think the point you just made that that's not the case. But the role the human will play will adapt and change and while that sounds scary in a vacuum, if you actually take a moment and look back, that's what's happened throughout our evolution, especially in the industrial world and the business world in the United States. Right, jobs have evolved and changed over time, and I've heard you say this before, so this is nothing different. I want you to dig in a little deeper on that to help the listeners understand and maybe some historical points to compare to. So it makes it a little more tangible. Devlin: Absolutely so. Think about the way we did accounting before the PC was invented, right? So before the Apple II, we're talking in the 1970s, right Before computing devices were in everybody's office on everybody's desk, right? The way we did accounting was we managed the book and you wrote entries in and you had somebody checking the math and you had the you know 10 keys sitting there with the stream of numbers coming out of it. Right, and your accounting department was massively larger than it is today. To be able to accomplish that, it had to be right, which was a big overhead for a business to bear. Right, and you had these big accounting firms who would help with economies of scale or whatever. But like, that was really the ballgame, right, and it took a long time to like, close out the books and do tax audits and those kind of things. Now fast forward to the introduction of broad computing power. That sped up that process. We still have accountants, we still have bookkeepers. In most businesses you can close the books on a month in 10 days, 30 days if you've got a lot of moving parts. It's not. Hey, we just closed January. In June, a crude accounting became far more prevalent. We had less financial fraud overall, the stories about it happen more often, but we have less by volume and we're actually getting more insights out of that, because it's no longer just tracking all the pieces but going hey, did you notice last month you had increased expenditures in this area without the increased revenue tied to them? And so we get business insights on top of what we used to get was just transactions. We not only have lower accounting costs, but we then have better outcomes from it. Ai is going to do something similar From a business perspective. It's going to allow us to get. It's going to allow us to get better outcomes or lower our costs, to give us pricing power in the market. Because all technology is labor compression right, what a welder by hand used to take hours to do on the original factory floors and structural integrity of the original cars that we were rolling across an assembly line right. Think 1930s, 1940s. We now have robotic welders who can do in 15 or 30 seconds with far more precision, with less human injury. Right Now, the quality checking, the x-ray and all that is still reviewed by a human to make sure that weld is solid, and even that we're automating some of. But like that, evolution allowed us to produce stronger, faster, cheaper, safer cars. I think we're in that space where AI is largely going to be applied to the problems that are on the edges of humans do a lot of it, but we're not very good at it because, like our bookkeepers, there's that whole notion of human error. Chris: Yeah, not that there won't be computer error as well. Oh, yeah, and so you kind of that's where the check and balance comes in. Devlin: And the idea of technology is just going to solve everything. Hopefully, as a civilization we've moved past right the 1970s to today. I used the 1970s because that was kind of the broad evolution of available computing right To today. Every new technology has created new problems. A joke with our team that yesterday's solutions caused today's problems. And that's a good thing, because, one, we always have problem to solve and, two, we don't have yesterday's problems. So AI being introduced is going to create things like we now need to manage bias, the computer error, right. That's not something we do today very well. When we talk about humans, right, like how do you manage bias at scale? In a thousand person company is like all right, hr and an army of training, but with a computer you can actually try to start tilting at some of these things. Now, does that mean we're going to do it Well, we're going to do it better than we do today. Probably we're going to do it wrong and have to create tomorrow's problems. Chris: Yeah, I love that perspective. So what are some of the obstacles or pitfalls that you've seen that businesses encounter when they're trying to implement technology, and maybe even specifically, obviously specific to AI technology? Devlin: So there are two. One of them is perfectly valid and it's going to be some learning that we have to overcome, and I'm going to start with that one the belief that I have to spend a ton of time and money to correct my data right. Because, traditionally over the last 20 years you've had data engineering and data warehousing and data lakes and, like you, had to clean it and curate it and do all this work. That belief is a little antiquated, right. You can bring in raw data and then actually use a lot of these automated systems AI systems to clean it up with you so that the labor of that is way less scary. Now that's the pitfall most people fall into is all I got to get my data cleaned up before I get any value. And so that ends up raising the price tag of going after these technologies and ultimately keeps companies from getting some of that benefit because they don't want to pay that cost. And then the second pitfall is building your own. And what I mean by building your own is every business has unique challenges and they have their particular flavors, right? It's why, where SAP works for one, but you know, acumatica would be better for somebody else as an ERP system. But you don't have to reinvent the wheel and we keep doing that, right? I was just talking to a friend of mine, houston based company yesterday. 500 million in revenue and we're like talking about one of their AI initiatives. It wasted $6 million, didn't get anything out of it Wow. And we're talking about them like. You can do that with almost off the shelf tools everything you guys were trying to accomplish in about four months for about half a million and the difference is that they try to reinvent all the wheels. We don't need to do that, just like you're not going to build your own email system, right? You don't need to build your own baseline architecture for a large language model. Use one of the foundational ones that's off the shelf and you don't waste a lot of that time and effort. Chris: And that gets you that good way to get started. Devlin: Yeah, it may evolve from there, may evolve from there you may hit a problem where you do need to build your own. Chris: I kind of the rule of thumb I use is if your IT budget doesn't start with a, b, you're probably not building your own machine learning models, so that raises a good question, and that would be how can companies distinguish between an AI solution that actually is going to offer value real value versus just a company following the hype right and being misguided by the solution. Maybe they choose. Devlin: Fall in love with solving the problem, not the tools. So if let's take my company right, we spend a lot of time trying to solve one big problem. That big problem was knowledge. We grow the acquisition We've done 14 acquisitions in 14 years and we always create knowledge silos. And so when we bring in somebody, our current team doesn't know their stories for, like, selling their skill sets, what they're good at, those kind of things, and they don't know all of our stories. And so we had this big knowledge silo gap problem right Right Now. Ultimately, what that means is when a customer goes, hey, do you do X, regardless of what X is, they're going to say no because they don't know the stories. Now, how do I overcome this? I could do training, all right, but then I got to do that training every time we acquire a company and we're doing like we're aiming for two to four acquisitions a year, which means that's not a sustainable thing because of the labor cost. Right, it's like, okay, well, maybe I allow the silos to continue and just accept that's part and parcel of the business. It's possible. Chris: Possible, but you're a miss out on a ton of opportunity. Exactly. Devlin: Or we take all their stories, their case studies, their customer testimonials. We loaded them into what we call echo, which is a AI enabled chatbot, and it literally reads SharePoint. Right, it's not like it's not parsing data. There's no big data engineering effort. It's loading Word documents, PDFs, all this off SharePoint and they just chat with it and they go hey, have we done a deal with a major energy company? And it goes yes, here are the three, they're most relevant to you. And then it embeds the PDF and goes and here's where you find more details, so that the sales team on a sales call can have echo up on another window. Like, hey, have we ever done that? And it goes yes, in this office, here's the people to reach out to that level of knowledge. Access would have cost us thousands of hours of training, Right, and so it's that type of thing. Focus on the problem. Where do you have pain and where are you wasting hours? You don't actually care as a business owner unless you're selling AI as a product, Right. You don't actually care if it's an AI solution, an automation solution or just really clever software. You just want the problem solved, and by not falling in love with the tool, but falling in love with solving the problem. You focus on the right thing Because the value add, the ROI, is all about the problem, not about the tool. Chris: Look, that makes sense. It's easy to remember, for sure, and I mean I think you're right. Devlin: I think most business owners agree. Chris: I just need this problem solved effectively and efficiently. Devlin: By the way, you find these problems by going. What would it take for me to 5x my business today? The things that immediately popped to mind? You're like, oh well, this would break and this would break, and this would break and this would break. That's your list. For me, it's like well, I need five times as many account managers and my accounting staff's got to grow and I'd need better hiring. That's my list. Do I need five times as many account managers or do I need to help automate a lot of the account management and administrator to make them more effective? How do I upskill and get my recruiters leveraging AI, sorting and those kind of things to pull more people into the pipeline? That's my list. By simply going. What would it take to get bigger? Buy a big number. If 5x isn't scary enough, tack a zero on there. Chris: That definitely would be scary. Devlin: So let's, talk about. Chris: There's a lot that's been written and it's something we're doing here ourselves and that's with AI out there. What are best practices that businesses should be considering around policies for using, evaluating, adapting AI technology in the business, ai technology in the business. There's a lot that I think it's probably best practice. There should one. Yes, you should have a policy, but anything you can kind of guide the listeners on on those issues around a competent and well thought out AI policy. Devlin: So it's got a few pieces. Number one data privacy needs to be forefront in that conversation, primarily to protect your business and to protect your competitive advantage. So if your AI usage or acceptable usage policy doesn't include something about how data privacy should be evaluated, that's a big gap. Now your opinions about data privacy are gonna be your company's opinions, but those tools that are cheap and freely available today are largely cheap and freely available so that they can use your data to train a better tool. Is that okay with you? Some people will like yeah, it doesn't matter, and some people are like no, I absolutely can never allow this data out of my control, at which point you gotta choose different tools. So data privacy is number one. Chris: To that point. You may be aware of this and I recently wrote a little, brought it on it, but you had the New. York Times lawsuit saying that all trained on copyrighted material. Trained on copyrighted material, so that's kind of to me somewhat akin to data security and privacy, and that's a whole other issue about copywriting and licensing around information. So we haven't talked with that in a minute. Let's keep on the data or AI kind of policies. And so you said, most important thing, data privacy. What's next? Devlin: Second is vendor resiliency. Now, this is gonna sound a little tough to like the indie developers who are trying to launch their product, but last year in the US there were 6,000 plus tools launched on the AI Hype Wave. Now the punchline to that story is over 4,000 have already failed Already, had to either pivot or gone out of business. Vendor resiliency if you're gonna start pulling these into your business, evaluate the vendor. Are they gonna survive long enough to be valuable to you, or do you now have a broken tool that's no longer being accessible that you've woven into your business? That is gonna drive you towards some of the bigger vendors, the ones that have been around for a while, and, as it kind of should. If you're weaving it into your ops Now for experimentation, use the little players, Like that makes sense to me, but when you're talking about a broad policy, vendor resiliency is gonna be a big thing. The other side of vendor resiliency is how are they going to indemnify you from the inevitable lawsuits in this space? Right? Microsoft, Google, Amazon have all said if you're using our tools inside the license agreement, there's indemnity. Right, that's a pretty big shield, right? Microsoft actually said that they would. If you're using their AI services. They would protect you and defend and pay a settlement if one ends up happening for copyright infringement. So, like the Times article thing won't hit the consumers of those AI tools. Microsoft has stood in front of it and said we're good, that's a big shield. Now if you're a small to mid-market software player, can you put up a shield right Right To your customers? As a customer, I need to start caring about this. And then, lastly, in that policy, some centralized knowledge repository, some centralized store, Because what we found is everybody's play. Everybody's trying, experimenting using these tools. They're wiring in their favorite one. I do this almost on a daily basis. I kick out unapproved tools from meetings that somebody like wired up like a meeting transcriber, listener, bot, and I kick them out of meetings and send a note to whoever did it. I'm like just to be clear not approved. Chris: Right. Devlin: Here's the approved one. Don't use that one and everybody's just so. Expense control and some kind of central review. It doesn't have to be heavy handed. Ours is literally just a let us know when you're experimenting so we can check in on the experiment because it might be something we want to share. Yeah, right, but some kind of central right. Yeah, because a lot of these are SaaS based. A lot of them are out, kind of in the ethos of like knowledge tools, like note taking tools that I use. There would be no way for improving to know that its IP is in that tool if I didn't tell them. And so you've got to. You've got to have kind of a reporting and honor system for the employees to tell you where your data and vendors live. Chris: So one of the things that I know that improving and the leadership and improving which includes you. You've done a great job of building a culture and a company that embraces technology, embraces innovation. What can you share about that experience and that journey at improving to maybe help others understand, you know how they may be able to do the same thing. Devlin: Absolutely so. I have the oddity of looking at this kind of if I look back down the mountain, it seems like it's a long way, but all I can see is looking up the mountain and it still seems insurmountable. So I guess first would be the journey doesn't end. Don't let the size of the mountain scare you, Just take a step Right. For us we have a lot of like growth and planning kind of baked into our employee management model. We call it PATH, that's our employee growth systems, and part of that is maintaining your marketable job skills, literally what we call hard skills right, the marketability of a person to maintain. Because there's this kind of natural degradation If I stop learning, I become less and less valuable because the market moves ahead of me. Right, and so, recognizing that truth and going okay, what are you doing this quarter to grow with technologies? Then we go okay, what new tech are you learning or playing with or experimenting with this quarter? What we have found is, as long as there's a vehicle for them to share that back to the company and make an impact, people are highly engaged If it is just playing over here and then they have to come back over here and do the same thing that they've been doing for 15 years less engagement, and so creating the vehicle in which their experiments can have a long lasting impact on the business created a lot of engagement. And then the other side of it is we recognized a while ago that if you're not growing, you're dying as a business, and that's true for all of our people. It's what we call the plateau of slow death. Like you've just decided to coast that will have an accelerating decline in your value to the business. How do we help people stay on a plateau of slow growth where they're still incrementally investing? Sure, Now for us that's five hours a week because we're a technology company, it moves quick. Right, that might not need to be five hours a week for somebody in manufacturing, distribution etc. But probably an hour a week just reading. Like there's the Wall Street Journal podcast, there's this podcast that's phenomenal for staying abreast of what's happening. Like consume an hour a week of new information for you and your team, and you'd be amazed at what doing that week after week will do to the business. Like it just accelerates. And it sounds very simple. It was one of the first steps we took. Chris: You know that the dedication to being intentional about the learning and self improvement on a weekly basis, I think is amazing that any business right I believe so I am amazed how many business owners and friends I have that work in businesses and they're so busy that they're too busy to survive. I've said here in this firm before and you have to repeat it, and we're all can be victim of it and guilty of it, but busy can't be an excuse. I'm too busy to do X when X is strategic work on how to improve the company or yourself. Busy can't be an excuse, Because if it is, then nothing will ever get done because you always feel too busy right, and so I pay for a lot of tools. Devlin: I'm a well augmented human right. One of those tools is summaries of like business articles and books and all that. And so while I was sitting here waiting for this conversation, I was reading one of those. And it's that overarching approach of like how am I getting value out of those moments, like when a meeting wraps up early, do you sigh in relief and like, walk out and waste 10 minutes? Maybe that's good recovery and you need that for emotional balance. Okay, but is it intentional? Did you go hey, you know what I need emotional balance and chose that. Or did you go? I got 10 minutes. I'm going to read that book summary, or I'm going to read an article, or I'm going to check out what's on HPJ innovation stuff, like those questions. Right, just making the consumption of data an option mentally for all this. This is why I say like, a lot of our barriers are psychological, because the technology is actually not scary Once you start exploring it. It's only scary when it's like Skynet and Terminator from the movies, and so then it's scary and that makes sense. Chris: But let's get this right, let's bring this full circle from the beginning of the conversation. Right what you're talking about and recommending people. Be intentional about that. Self learning, that discipline around self learning and improvement, is really going to be essential as new technologies come online, because we you said earlier right Technology is going to force the worker to adapt and the only way you can adapt is by continuing to learn. So, to be successful alongside technology like AI, it's going to be essential. Devlin: This is actually. I'm a future optimist, and what I mean by that is I think that technology elevates humanity right, Very similar to capitalism. Elevating humanity it has made life better. It's increased longevity, it's done a lot of things. Now, that's not to say technology is perfect and we live in utopia Like, but it is. Technology elevates us, but it makes us do the harder version of life right. Technology allows us to play life on hard mode. So, like social media, I can doom scroll forever, which means I have to own the choice. Right Before that, technology enabled me to stay connected with all my friends. I didn't have to make that choice Right. Right, ai, by taking a lot of the complexity, a lot of the time consuming tasks off my plate, means that all that's left are the difficult tasks, it's the hard mode tasks, and getting really good at the hard mode tasks is the value creation in the future. It's hey, I got to go write this software. The writing of the software, the actual typing, is going to get much easier, just like accounting, just like bookkeeping, just like going through and like automatic scanning of discovery documents in the legal space. Sure, used to be very time consuming Now is being accelerated by AI and automation. So now then, the hard part is understanding what software I need to write and why, understanding what those transactions mean to the business and why, understanding what, in that discovery, is pertinent, important and relevant to the story I'm telling. Right, like all the hard tasks, get left the difficult task, because those are the ones AI is really bad at Right. Chris: Basically for now. So before we wrap this up, I definitely want to ask you your thoughts on regulation and what you think Congress should or shouldn't do around putting some regulations in the AI space. Devlin: So AI regulation is coming, like that's going to be the case. Any sufficiently developed technology ends up getting regulated at some point. Should do. Transparency to empower a educated consumer is phenomenal Like stating if you've baked an ethical bias or a political or religious bias into a model so that the people who are using it can choose, right, that makes sense. Chris: Realize that the output is tilted in some way. Devlin: Right, that's great to know as a consumer. Right, and luckily that's where a lot of the early regulations in this space are tilting. The shouldn't do side of it is dangerously close to that, which is then publish how you built the model to prove that statement, which is a lot like saying give everybody your proprietary trade secrets. Right, there's a reason that open AI stopped publishing a lot of their and here's exactly how we built it, and that's because a whole bunch of other companies took that research that they poured tens of billions of dollars into and created additional models that were almost identical in performance. Right Now they're different and they were developed by different teams and all that. But, like, there's a reason it went from we have one major version of this to we now have 15 publicly available commercial models. Right, that gets dangerous when you start regulating people to destroying their business, and so that's the line I'm hoping we walk the stifled innovation that happens on that second one we're seeing in the EU when they passed the and here's all the restrictions of AI you have to publish your training set and your methodology and all this stuff. It's like awesome, and there was a mass exodus of AI companies from that area. Like yeah, they're like nope, we are not going to, not going to participate if you require us to kill ourselves. Chris: Right. And so we're going to invest time and money in something that they can't then have a return on. Devlin: I mean, if you look at the open AI side of it, this is tens of billions of dollars in decades of research and development and work to make this happen. Imagine if you then had a law that said and you have to enable your competitor, who doesn't have that cost, to then rapidly get to the same point for a 10th Right, and so there's a balance between you want to democratize some of it, you've got to balance the investment side of it, and if you go too far which I believe personal belief that the EU did it just causes a significant drop in investment. Chris: So you know, kind of with that in mind, where do you kind of foresee the evolution of AI over the next five to 10 years? Devlin: We have largely looked at AI as the Jetsons robot or terminator, where it's this one thing that is omnipowerful, omnikable, right, omnipresent. I don't believe that's where we're going. The best minds in this space, of which I get to talk to I am not one of, I beg the difference. Go ahead. They would tell you that it will be a cloud of things like imagine that you're surrounded by Chris's swarm of empowering bots. You've got a bot that helps you manage your schedule. You've got a bot that helps you take notes from a meeting without having to like jot them down, and all of these save you 10, 15, 20 minutes an hour and a half a day. That means somehow Chris is doing 50 hours of work in a eight hour day because you've got this super human capability that's empowered by all of these things. That's where we're headed. I just saw I was playing around with a toolkit that there's been a lot of hype over the last few weeks is the video generator, pica. It's like mid journey or Dolly or stable diffusion for images, but does videos. Chris: Okay. Devlin: Like cinematographic grade quality. The problem is you have to also get really good at understanding camera movements and placement and blocking and all these things that directors have known for decades, and so it's not built for this average consumer. It's built for making folks with that knowledge massively more successful. Right, being able to go and here's a rough of my movie idea. Right. Here's a short of my movie idea for $1,000, not 70. Chris: Right. Devlin: Right, that will accelerate the creative space in movie making, but it's not going to get rid of a need for that knowledge base. Same thing's true with geophysics and well-planning and the energy space. How do we conceptualize all of this and make a human significantly more powerful? So this team that includes a drilling engineer, a geophysicist and all this can plan wells and make financial analysis, and all that in days, not years. Right, that acceleration is where we're going to see it. We're going to see it through these kind of micro enhancements. I carry several of them with me. I've got a note-taking system that maps all of the connected topics that I've been researching and digging into and it's wicked, fun and crazy. But I built a chat system on it that runs on my laptop and so I can ask questions on my notes. I'm like, hey, in my last Vistage meeting there was a speaker who talked about this what were the key takeaways? And it goes. Here's the notes. Here are the key takeaways. It's that kind of empowerment, because human memory is fallible, and so how many of us have wished like I wish I had a better memory. Chris: It doesn't have to live in my head. Yeah, Kind of like what it. There was something five minutes ago I said I needed to do and now I can't remember what it is. How often does that happen? Devlin: I carry around to do this and to do this integrates with it, and so at the end of the day, right before I typically leave the office, I get a reminder set from the automation I hooked up to it. Now it looks at my calendar and goes where's the right point to remind a Devlin to do those things before the end of the day. So like folks literally like I don't know how you do this, I'm like I don't, I'm very well augmented that yeah, you said that more than once. Chris: I know you mean it very well augmented. So I was going to ask you what some of your favorite AI tools are. I think you've shared them just now, but maybe just a quick summary of maybe three or four of your favorite tools for the listeners who were trying to frantically take notes. Devlin: So I for network management. So my personal network management I use clayearth. You literally go to. Clayearth is the URL. I think it's phenomenal and I use that to manage my network. It does not spam or reach out to, it just helps me reach out and stay connected the kind of in my business version of that one is dynamics. We use sales copilot for dynamics. Einstein in Salesforce does the same thing. Chris: So in the business. Devlin: We use a different one because different needs, right? Sure For note taking, I use obsidian. You can use ever note or one note in this same thing and it'll do a lot of the same AI enablement through plug ins and those kinds of things. Chris: And then you mentioned one about just the main of the reminder. Devlin: So I use to do is and power automate. I've combined those two tools. So if you're in the Microsoft stack right, you use office 365 or Microsoft 365, you have access to this one already I didn't know it and so you can go to makepowercom. It's a Microsoft tool. You'll log in with your Microsoft thing and you can describe what you want it to do. I did this yesterday. I was presenting to a group of CEOs on this topic and I was like take the notes, my handwritten notes that I emailed a picture of myself. Take the notes I emailed a picture of to myself, parse them, put the text in my notebook, scan it for action items and put those action items into do list. Literally, that's all I described. And it goes okay, and it's got this massive library of these tiny little tasks and it pulls them all together and goes. Here's the automation that will do that and it writes the rough draft, the prototype of the automation for you and you just click all right, create. And it goes. This is the permissions I'm going to need. Are you good with that? Yep, go. And it's there and it's running. I had to write no code, I had to wire nothing together, it just did it and so we're using this for, like, back office automation all the time. Like, hey, take this output of our financial system, slice it, dice it in this way and it writes the pivot table creation and all that in Excel. Like that's might be half an hour or 45 minutes that I just saved our business partner in accounting, and so it's a lot of these tiny little bots. Chris: Wow. So when you think about AI and how it could be disruptive to industry, what are maybe one of the top two industries you think it's going to be the most disruptive to? Devlin: So oddly, I think logistics, supply chain and manufacturing are probably those two. One, they've typically been under invested in technology and so there's a lot of low hanging fruit. But two, it gives pricing power. Like, imagine that I can compress the labor to accomplish a task. I can now out price my competitors who aren't doing that, and in those two spaces where they're very commoditized prices can't. If you can be 3% cheaper while maintaining your margins, that's the ballgame and you can just put people out of business. So I think those two are going to have massive kind of immediate six to 18 month impact. If you look slightly beyond that, the construction space is huge in this AP great Houston story here has a robot called Dusty that they helped to develop. It takes the construction documents for a high rise and it prints the lay down onto the concrete. It uses basically a Roomba guided by AI. It parses the construction documents and, in color coded paint, prints the lay down. And it reduces the labor of manual labor, construction labor, of building out that building, because they don't have to snap chalk lines and measure everything and everything else, they just follow the color coded thing, which also means I need lower scale labor, which is the labor savings. And so these things are changing the game and changing the pricing power on a lot of these fixed bid contracts. And so you see some interesting spaces where traditionally non technology based business has a lot of low hanging fruit, like fintech and financial services has been heavily invested in technology. Less low hanging fruit there, sure. So the disruptive stuff I think is going to be in those three over the next few years. Chris: Okay, Devlin, this has been such an interesting and fun conversations. Thank you for doing that. I want to just turn just to a little bit of the fun side of things when I have a guest in, and what was your first job, I guess you told us today you were programming, but was that where you get paid to do it? Devlin: No. So my first job there was a pool near our house and I love like there was a cherry seven up, like you got the bottle cap thing and you could earn points and order stuff. Like that moment in time and I my parents like I didn't have enough allowance to like as much cherry seven up as I wanted, right, and so I talked to the owner of the pool that we were a member of near our house into letting me like, do the chlorine and the cleanup and scrub the pool for cash when I was 12. Like this was definitely not legal. And then so like I'm moving buckets of chlorine and doing all this stuff while my friends are playing at the pool, because I was earning $5 a day that I could spend on cherry seven up. Chris: I grew up from an early age right. I love it. Devlin: So hopefully I don't get anybody in trouble. I'm not giving you names of pools, okay. Chris: So what do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Devlin: Oh, barbecue Hands down. Yeah, I have a massive pit smoker in my backyard Like oh, for real Okay. So we throw a barbecue in Dallas every year for fourth of July, feed like 400 people. We throw one here at our office for Labor Day, memorial Day, which one's at the end of the summer. Chris: Labor Day, labor Day. Devlin: For Labor Day feed like 250 folks. Chris: Like I'm bigger than barbecue. You're serious? All right, I love it. And what do you like to do for fun when you're not out speaking? Devlin: on AI. So I play a lot of golf with my wife and she kicks my butt, or I like video games and stuff like that, and so my brother and I play a lot of video games Very good. Chris: Well, like I said, Dylan, I love the conversations we've had in the past. What you shared today was so enlightening and I know we'll be valuable to those listening, and I said that they probably, like me, took a lot of notes that they'll try to implement into their daily life. So thanks again for being here. Thank you, thank you.

If you missed the other episodes with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipants and founders Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito of Goodz, you can listen to the first episode (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/s3e2incubatorgoodz) and the second episode (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/s3e4incubatorgoodz), and the third episode (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/s3e6incubatorgoodz) to catch up! Lindsey Christensen and Jordyn Bonds catch up with the co-founders of Goodz, Chris Cerrito and Mike Rosenthal, where they share insights from their journey during the Incubator program, including the usefulness of the application process in aligning their vision and the challenges and benefits of user interviews and the importance of not overreacting to single user feedback and finding a balance in responding to diverse opinions. They reveal the varied reactions of users to Goodz's product, highlighting the different market segments interested in it. As the Incubator program nears its end for Goodz, Chris and Mike reflect on their achievements and future plans. They've made significant progress, such as setting up an e-commerce site and conducting successful user interviews. The co-founders discuss their excitement about the potential of their product and the validation they received from users. Mike mentions the importance of focusing on B2B sales and the possibility of upcoming events like South by Southwest and Record Store Day. Transcript: LINDSEY: Thanks for being here. My name's Lindsey. I head up marketing at thoughtbot. If you haven't joined one of these before, we are checking in with two of the founders who are going through the thoughtbot Startup Incubator to learn how it's going, what's new, what challenges they're hitting, and what they're learning along the way. If you're not familiar with thoughtbot, we're a product design and development consultancy, and we hope your team and your product become a success. And one way we do that is through our startup incubator. So, today, we are joined by our co-founders, Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito, Co-Founders of the startup Goodz. And we also have another special guest today, Danny Kim, from the thoughtbot side, Senior Product Manager at thoughtbot. So, I think, to start off, we'll head over to the new face, the new voice that we've got with us today. Danny, tell us a little bit about your role at thoughtbot and, specifically, the incubator. DANNY: Yeah, sure. First of all, thanks for having me on, and thanks for letting me join in on all the fun. I'm one of the product managers at thoughtbot. I typically work for the Lift-Off team. We usually work with companies that are looking to, like, go into market with their first version MVP. They might have a product that exists and that they're already kind of doing well with, and they kind of want to jump into a new segment. We'll typically work with companies like that to kind of get them kicked off the ground. But it's been really awesome being part of the incubator program. It's my first time in helping with the market validation side. Definitely also, like, learning a lot from this experience [laughs] for myself. Coming at it specifically from a PM perspective, there's, like, so much variation usually in product management across the industry, depending on, like, what stage of the product that you're working in. And so, I'm definitely feeling my fair share of impostor syndrome here. But it's been really fun to stretch my brand and, like, approach problems from, like, a completely different perspective and also using different tools. But, you know, working with Mike and Chris makes it so much easier because they really make it feel like you're part of their team, and so that definitely goes a long way. LINDSEY: It just goes to show everyone gets impostor syndrome sometimes [laughter], even senior product managers at thoughtbot [laughter]. Thanks for that intro. It's, you know, the thoughtbot team learns along the way, too, you know, especially if usually you're focused on a different stage of product development. Mike, it's been only three weeks or a very long three weeks since last we checked in with you, kind of forever in startup time. So, I think the last time, we were just getting to know you two. And you were walking us through the concept, this merging of the digital and physical world of music, and how we interact with music keepsakes or merchandise. How's my pitch? MIKE: Good. Great. You're killing it. [laughter] LINDSEY: And has anything major changed to that concept in the last three weeks? MIKE: No. I mean, I can't believe it's only been three weeks. It feels like it's been a long time since we last talked. It's been an intense three weeks, for sure. No, it's been going really well. I mean, we launched all sorts of stuff. I'm trying to think of anything that's sort of fundamentally changed in terms of the plan itself or kind of our, yeah, what we've been working on. And I think we've pretty much stayed the course to sort of get to where we are now. But it's been really intensive. I think also having sort of Thanksgiving in there, and we were kind of pushing to get something live right before the Thanksgiving break. And so, that week just felt, I mean, I was just dead by, you know, like, Thursday of Thanksgiving. I think we all were. So, it's been intense, I would say, is the short answer. And I'm happy, yeah, to get into kind of where things are at. But big picture, it's been an intense three weeks. LINDSEY: That's cool. And when we talked, you were, you know, definitely getting into research and user interviews. Have those influenced any, you know, changes along the way in the plan? MIKE: Yeah. They've been really helpful. You know, we'd never really done that before in any of the sort of past projects that we've worked on together. And so, I think just being able to, you know, read through some of those scripts and then sit through some of the interviews and just kind of hearing people's honest assessment of some things has been really interesting. I'm trying to think if it's materially affected anything. I guess, you know, at first, we were, like, we kind of had some assumptions around, okay, let's try to find, like...adult gift-givers sounds like the wrong thing, adults who give gifts as, like, a persona. The idea that, like, you know, maybe you gift your siblings gifts, and then maybe this could be a good gift idea. And I think, you know, we had a hard time kind of finding people to talk in an interesting way about that. And I think we've kind of realized it's kind of a hard persona to kind of chop up and talk about, right, Chris? I don't know [crosstalk 04:55] CHRIS: Well, it also seemed to, from my understanding of it, it seemed to, like, genuinely stress out the people who were being interviewed... MIKE: [laughs] CHRIS: Because it's kind of about a stressful topic [inaudible 05:03], you know, and, like, especially -- LINDSEY: Why? [laughs] CHRIS: Well, I think, I don't know, now I'm making assumptions. Maybe because we're close to the holiday season, and that's a topic in the back of everybody's mind. But yeah, Danny, would you disagree with that? Those folks, from what we heard, seemed like they were the most difficult to kind of extract answers from. But then, if the subject changed and we treated them as a different persona, several of those interviews proved to be quite fruitful. So, it's just really interesting. DANNY: Yeah. It really started, like, you kind of try to get some answers out of people, and there's, like, some level of people trying to please you to some extent. That's just, like, naturally, how it starts. And you just, like, keep trying to drill into the answers. And you just keep asking people like, "So, what kind of gifts do you give?" And they're just like, "Oh my goodness, like, I haven't thought about buying gifts for my sister in [laughs], like, you know, in forever. And now, like [laughs], I don't know where to go." And they get, like, pretty stressed out about it. But then we just kind of started shifting into like, "All right, cool, never mind about that. Like, do you like listening to music?" And they're like, "Yes." And then it just kind of explodes from there. And they're like, "This last concert that I went to..." and all of this stuff. And it was much more fruitful kind of leaning more towards that, actually, yeah. LINDSEY: That's fascinating. I guess that speaks to, especially at this stage and the speed and the amount of interviews you're doing, the need for being, like, really agile in those interviews, and then, like, really quickly applying what you're learning to making the next one even more valuable. MIKE: Yeah. And I think, you know, like, we launched just a little sort of website experiment or, like, an e-commerce experiment right before Thanksgiving. And I think now, you know, we're able to sort of take some of those learnings from those interviews and apply them to both sort of our ad copy itself but also just different landing pages in different language on the different kind of versions of the site and see if we can find some resonance with some of these audience groups. So, it's been interesting. LINDSEY: Are you still trying to figure out who that early adopter audience is, who that niche persona is? MIKE: I think we -- CHRIS: Yes, we are. I think we have a good idea of who it is. And I think right now we're just trying to figure out really how to reach those people. That, I think, is the biggest challenge right now for us. MIKE: Yeah. With the e-commerce experiment it was sort of a very specific niche thing that is a little bit adjacent to what I think we want to be doing longer term with Goodz. And so, it's weird. It's like, we're in a place we're like, oh, we really want to find the people that want this thing. But also, this thing isn't necessarily the thing that we think we're going to make longer term, so let's not worry too hard about finding them. You know what I mean? It's been an interesting sort of back and forth with that. CHRIS: From the interviews that we conducted, you know, we identified three key personas. Most of them have come up, but I'll just relist them. There's the sibling gift giver. There was the merch buyers; these are people who go to concerts and buy merchandise, you know, T-shirts, albums, records, things along those lines to support the artists that they love. And then the final one that was identified we gave the title of the 'Proud Playlister'. And these are people who are really into their digital media platforms, love making playlists, and love sharing those playlists with their friends. And that, I would say, the proud playlister is really the one that we have focused on in terms of the storefront that we launched, like, the product is pretty much specifically for them. But the lessons that we're learning while making this product and trying to get this into the hands of the proud playlisters will feed into kind of the merch buyers. MIKE: Yeah. And I think that, you know, it's funny, like, this week is kind of a poignant week for this, right? Because it's the week that Spotify Wrapped launched, right? So, it's like, in the course of any given year, it's probably, like, the one week of the year that lots and lots and lots of people are thinking about playlists all of a sudden, so trying a little bit to see if we can ride that wave or just kind of dovetail with that a bit, too. LINDSEY: Absolutely. And do you want to give just, like, the really quick reminder of what the product experience is like? MIKE: Oh yeah [laughs], good call. CHRIS: This is a prototype of it. It's called the Goodz Mixtape. Basically, the idea is that you purchase one of these from us. You give us a playlist URL. We program that URL onto the NFC chip that's embedded in the Good itself. And then when you scan this Good, that playlist will come up. So, it's a really great way of you make a playlist for somebody, and you want to gift it to them; this is a great way to do that. You have a special playlist, maybe between you and a friend or you and a partner. This is a good way to commemorate that playlist, turn it into a physical thing, give that digital file value and presence in the physical world. LINDSEY: Great. Okay, so you casually mentioned this launch of an e-commerce store that happened last week. MIKE: It didn't feel casual. LINDSEY: Yeah. Why [laughter]...[inaudible 09:45] real casual. Why did you launch it? How's it going? MIKE: I don't know. Why did we launch it? I mean, well, we wanted to be able to test some assumptions. I think, you know, we wanted to get the brand out there a little bit, get our website out there, kind of introduce the concept. You know, this is a very...not that we've invented this product category, but it is a pretty obscure product category, right? And so, there's a lot of sort of consumer education that I think that has to go on for people to wrap their heads around this and why they'd want this. So, I think we wanted to start that process a little bit correctly, sort of in advance of a larger launch next year, and see if we could find some early community around this. You know, if we can find those core people who just absolutely love this, and connect with it, and go wild around it, then those are the people that we're going to be able to get a ton of information from and build for that persona, right? It's like, cool, these are the people who love this. Let's build more for them and go find other people like this. So, I think, for us, it was that. And then, honestly, it was also just, you know, let's test our manufacturing and fulfillment and logistics capabilities, right? I mean, this is...as much as we are a B2B, you know, SaaS platform or that's what we envision the future of Goodz being, there is a physical component of this. And, you know, we do have that part basically done at this point. But we just, you know, what is it like to order 1,000 of these? What is it like to put these in the mail to people and, you know, actually take orders? And just some of that processing because we do envision a more wholesale future where we're doing, you know, thousands or tens of thousands of this at a time. And so, I think we just want to button up and do some dry runs before we get to those kinds of numbers. CHRIS: I think it also it's important to remember that we are talking in startup time. And while this last week seems like an eternity, it's been a week [laughs] that we've had this in place. So, we're just starting to learn these things, and we plan on continuing to do so. MIKE: Yeah. But I think we thought that getting a website up would be a good way to just start kind of testing everything more. LINDSEY: Great. Danny, what went into deciding what would be in this first version of the site and the e-commerce offering? DANNY: I mean, a lot of it was kind of mostly driven by Chris and Mike. They kind of had a vision and an idea of what they wanted to sell. Obviously, from the user interviews, we were starting to hone in a little bit more and, like, we had some assumptions going into it. I think we ultimately did kind of feel like, yeah, I think, like, the playlisters seem to be, like, the target market. But just hearing it more and hearing more excitement from them was definitely just kind of like, yeah, I think we can double down on this piece. But, ultimately, like, in terms of launching the e-commerce platform, and the storefront, and the website, like, just literally looking at the user journey and being like, how does a user get from getting onto a site, like, as soon as they land there to, like, finishing a purchase? And what points do they need? What are the key things that they need to think through and typically will run into? And a lot of it is just kind of reflecting on our own personal buyer behavior. And, also, as we were getting closer to the launch, starting to work through some of those assumptions about buyer behavior. As we got there, we obviously had some prototypes. We had some screenshots that we were already working with. Like, the design team was already starting to build out some of the site. And so, we would just kind of show it to them, show it to our users, and just be like, hey, like, how do you expect to purchase this? Like, what's the next step that you expect to take? And we'd just kind of, like, continue to iterate on that piece. And so... LINDSEY: Okay. So you were, before launching, even showing some of those mockups and starting to incorporate them in the user interviews. DANNY: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we tried to get it in there in front of them as early as possible, partially because, like, at some point in the user interviews, like, you're mostly just trying to first understand, like, who are our target customers? Who are these people? And we have an assumption of or an idea of who we think they are. But really, like, once you start talking to people, you kind of are, like, okay, like, this thing that I thought maybe it wasn't so accurate, or, like, the way that they're kind of talking about these products doesn't 100% match what I originally walked into this, you know, experiment with. And so, we, like, start to hone in on that. But after a certain point, you kind of get that idea and now you're just like, okay, you seem to be, like, the right person to talk to. And so, if I were to show you this thing, do you get it, right? Like, do you understand what's happening? Like, how to use this thing, what this product even does. And then also, like, does the checkout experience feel intuitive for you? Is it as simple as, like, I just want to buy a T-shirt? So, like, I'm just going to go by the T-shirt, pick a size, and, you know, move on with my life. Can we make it as seamless as that? LINDSEY: And so, you mentioned it's only been a week since it's been live. Have you been able to learn anything from it yet? And how are you trying to drive people to it today? MIKE: Yeah, I think we learned that sales is hard [laughs] and slow, and it takes some time. But it's good, and we're learning a lot. I mean, it's been a while since I've really dug deep in, like, the analytics and marketing kind of metrics. And so, we've got all the Google Tag Manager stuff, you know, hooked up and just, you know, connecting with just exploring, honestly, like the TikTok advertising platform, and the YouTube Pre-Rolls, and Shorts. And, like, a lot of stuff that I actually, since the last time I was heavily involved in this stuff, is just totally new and different. And so, it's been super interesting to see the funnel and sort of see where people are getting in the site, where people are dropping off. You know, we had an interesting conversation in our thoughtbot sync yesterday or the day before, where we were seeing how, you know, we're getting lots of people to the front page and, actually, a good number of people to the product page, and, actually, like, you know, not the worst number of people to the cart. But then you were seeing really high cart abandonment rates. And then, you know, when you start Googling, and you're like, oh, actually, everybody sees very high cart abandonment rates; that's just a thing. But we were seeing, like, the people were viewing their cart seven or eight times, and they were on there sort of five times as long as they were on any other page. And it's this problem that I think Danny is talking about where, you know, we need to actually get a playlist URL. This gets into the minutiae of what we're building, but basically like, we need to get them to give us a playlist URL in order to check out, right? And so, you sort of have to, like, put yourself back in the mind of someone who's scrolling on Instagram, and they see this as an ad, and they click it, and they're like, oh, that thing was cool. Sure, I will buy one of those. And then it's like, no, actually, you need to, you know, leave this, go into a different app, find a play...like, it suddenly just puts a lot of the mental strain. But it's a lot. It's a cognitive load, greater than, as you said, just buying a T-shirt and telling what size you want. So, thinking through ways to really trim that down, shore up the amount of time people are spending on a cart. All that stuff has been fascinating. And then just, like, the different demographic kind of work that we're using, all the social ads platforms to kind of identify has been really interesting. It's still early. But, actually, like, Chris and I were just noticing...we were just talking right before this call. Like, we're actually starting to get, just in the last 12 hours, a bunch more, a bunch, but more people signing up to our email newsletter, probably in the last 12 hours that we have in the whole of last week. Yeah, I don't know, just even that sort of learning, it's like, oh, do people just need time with a thing, or they come back and they think about it? CHRIS: Yeah. Could these people be working on their playlists? That's a question that I have. MIKE: [chuckles] Yeah, me too. CHRIS: It's like, you know, I'm making a playlist to drop into this product. It's really interesting. And I think it gives insight to kind of, you know, how personal this product could be, that this is something that takes effort on the part of the consumer because they're making something to give or to keep for themselves, which is, I think, really interesting but definitely hard, too. DANNY: Yeah. And I also want to also clarify, like, Chris just kind of said it, like, especially for viewers and listeners, like, that's something that we've been hearing a lot from user interviews, too, right? Like, the language that they're using is, like, this is a thing that I care about. Like it's a representation of who I am. It's a representation of, like, the relationship that I have with this person that I'm going to be giving, you know, this gift to or this playlist to, specifically, like, people who feel, like, really passionate about these things. And, I mean, like, I did, too. Like, when I was first trying to, like, date, my wife, like, I spent, like, hours, hours trying to pick the coolest songs that I thought, you know, were like, oh, like, she's going to think I'm so cool because, like, I listen to these, like, super low-key indie rock bands, and, like, you know, so many more hours than she probably spent listening to it. But that's [laughs] kind of, like, honestly, what we heard a lot in a lot of these interviews, so... LINDSEY: Yeah, same. No, totally resonates. And I also went to the site this week, and I was like, oh damn, this is cool. Like, and immediately it was like, oh, you know, I've got these three, you know, music friends that we go to shows together. I'm like, oh, this would be so cool to get them, you know, playlists of, like, music we've seen together. So, you might see me in the cart. I won't abandon it. MIKE: Please. I would love that. CHRIS: Don't think about it too long if you could -- [laughter]. LINDSEY: I won't. I won't. CHRIS: I mean, I would say I'm really excited about having the site not only as a vehicle for selling some of these things but also as a vehicle for just honing our message. It's like another tool that we have in our arsenal. During the user interviews themselves, we were talking in abstract terms, and now we have something concrete that we can bounce off people, which is, I think, going to be a huge boon to our toolset as we continue to refine and define this product. MIKE: Yeah, that's a good point. LINDSEY: Yeah. You mentioned that they're signing up for, like, email updates. Do you have something you're sending out? Or are you kind of just creating a list? Totally fine, just building a list. MIKE: [laughs] No. CHRIS: It's a picture of Mike and I giving a big thumbs up. That's, yeah. [laughter] MIKE: No. But maybe...that was the thing; I was like, oh great, they're signing up. And I was like, gosh, they're signing up. Okay [laughter], now we got to write something. But we will. LINDSEY: Tips to making your playlist [crosstalk 19:11] playing your playlist -- MIKE: Yeah [crosstalk 19:13]. CHRIS: Right. And then also...tips to making your playlists. Also, we're advancing on the collectible side of things, too. We are, hopefully, going to have two pilot programs in place, one with a major label and one with a major artist. And we're really excited about that. LINDSEY: Okay. That's cool. I assume you can't tell us very much. What can you tell us? MIKE: Yeah. We won't mention names [chuckles] in case it just goes away, as these things sometimes do. But yeah, there's a great band who's super excited about these, been around for a long time, some good name recognition, and a very loyal fan base. They want to do sort of a collection of these. I think maybe we showed the little...I can't remember if we showed the little crates that we make or not, but basically, [inaudible 19:52] LINDSEY: The last time, yeah. MIKE: So, they want to sell online a package that's, you know, five or six Goodz in a crate, which I think will be cool and a great sort of sales experiment. And then there's a couple of artists that we're going to do an experiment with that's through their label that's more about tour...basically, giving things away on tour. So, they're going to do some giveaway fan club street team-style experiments with some of these on the road. So, first, it's ideal, provided both those things happen, because we definitely want to be exploring on the road and online stuff. And so, this kind of lets us do both at once and get some real learnings as to kind of how people...because we still don't know. We haven't really put these in people's hands yet. And it's just, like, are people scanning these a lot? Are they not? Is this sort of an object that's sitting on their shelf? Is it...yeah, it's just, like, there's so much we're going to learn once we get these into people's hands. LINDSEY: Do you have the infrastructure to sort of see how many times the cards are scanned? CHRIS: Mm-hmm. Yep, we do. MIKE: Yeah. So, we can see how many times each one is scanned, where they're scanned, that sort of thing. CHRIS: Kind of our next step, and something we were just talking about today with the thoughtbot team, is building out kind of what the backend will be for this, both for users and also for labels and artists. That it will allow them to go in and post updates to the Goodz, to allow them to use these for promotion as people, you know, scan into them to give them links to other sites related to the artists that they might be interested in before they move on to the actual musical playlist. So, that's kind of the next step for us. And knowing how users use these collectibles, both the kind of consumer Good and the artist collectibles that we were just talking about, will help inform how we build that platform. LINDSEY: Very cool. And right now, the online store itself that's built in Shopify? MIKE: Yeah. The homepage is Webflow that Kevin from the thoughtbot team really spearheaded in building for us. And then, yeah, the e-commerce is Shopify. LINDSEY: Y'all have been busy. MIKE: [laughs] LINDSEY: Is there anything else maybe that I haven't asked about yet that we should touch on in terms of updates or things going on with the product? MIKE: I don't know. I don't think so. I think, like Chris said, I mean, we're just...like, now that the site has kind of stood up and we're really switched over to kind of marketing and advertising on that, definitely digging into the backend of this kind of SaaS platform that's going to probably be a big focus for the rest of the, you know, the program, to be honest. Yeah, just some other things we can do on the next front that could eventually build into the backend that I think can be interesting. No, I guess [laughs] the short answer is no, nothing, like, substantial. Those are the big [crosstalk 22:26] LINDSEY: Yeah. Well, that was my next question, too, which is kind of like, what's next, or what's the next chunk of work? So, it's obviously lots more optimization and learning on the e-commerce platform, and then this other mega area, which is, you know, what does this look like as a SaaS solution? What's the vision? But also, where do we start? Which I'm sure, Danny, is a lot of work that you specialize in as far as, like, scoping how to approach these kinds of projects. DANNY: Yeah. And it's interesting because, I mean, we were just talking about this today. Like, part of it is, like, we can, like, really dig into, like, the e-commerce site and, like, really nailing it down to get it to the place where it's like, we're driving tons more traffic and also getting as low of a, like, cart abandonment rate as possible, right? But also, considering the fact that this is in the future, like, large-scale vision. And there's, like, also, like, we're starting to, I think, now iron out a lot of those, like, milestones where we're kind of like, okay, like, we got, like, a short-term vision, which is, like, the e-commerce site. We got a mid-term vision and a potential long-term vision. How do we validate this long-term vision while also still like, keeping this short-term vision moving forward? And, like, this mid-term vision is also going to, like, help potentially, either, like, steer us towards that long-term or maybe even, like, pivot us, like, into a completely different direction. So, like, where do you put your card, right? Like, how much energy and time do we put into, like, each of these areas? And that's kind of, like, the interesting part of this is starting to talk through that, starting to kind of prioritize, like, how we can maximize on our effort, like, our development and design effort so that things just kind of line up more naturally and organically for our future visioning, so... MIKE: Yeah. A lot of different things to juggle. I saw there was a question. Somebody asked what the URL is, but I don't seem to be able to [crosstalk 24:10]. LINDSEY: The same question as me. We got to drop the link for this thing. MIKE: Yeah, getthegoodz.com. CHRIS: That's G-O-O-D-Z. LINDSEY: Get in there, folks MIKE: Yeah, get [crosstalk 24:23]. LINDSEY: And let us know how it goes. MIKE: Yeah, please [laughs]. Any bugs? Let us know. Yeah. I think that those...yeah, I mean, it's a good point, Danny, in terms of juggling kind of the near-term and longer-term stuff. You know, it's a good kind of reminder our big focus, you know, in the new year is going to be fundraising, right? We're already talking to some investors and things like that. So, it's like, okay, yes, as you said, we could tweak the cart. We could tweak the e-commerce. Or, like, can we paint the big picture of what the longer-term version of this company is going to be in a way that makes it compelling for investment to come in so that there can be a long-term version of this company? And then we can build those things. So yeah, it's definitely a balance between the two. LINDSEY: Oh, also, just casual fundraising as well. [crosstalk 25:06] MIKE: Yeah, yeah. LINDSEY: [laughs] MIKE: But it's hard. It's like, you wake up in the morning. It's like, do I want to, like, write cold emails to investors? Or do I want to, like, look at Google Analytics and, like, tweak ad copy? That's actually more fun. So, yes. LINDSEY: Yeah, life of the founder, for sure. All right. So, that's getthegoodz (Goodz with a z) .com. Check it out. We'll tune in and see what happens with the e-commerce site, what happens with the SaaS planning the next time that we check in. But Chris, Mike, Danny, thank you so much for joining today and sharing what's been going on over the last few weeks: the good, the bad, the challenge, the cart abandonment. And, you know, best of luck to you over the next few weeks, and we'll be sure to check in and see how it's going. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Transcript:  LINDSEY: Thank you to our viewers and listeners. We are catching up once again with one of the startups going through the thoughtbot Incubator. My name is Lindsey Christensen. I'm joined today by Jordyn Bonds, who heads up the thoughtbot incubator, as well as our Co-Founders of Goodz, Chris Cerrito and Mike Rosenthal. Welcome, everybody. MIKE: Thanks, Lindsey. LINDSEY: Before we get started, before we put Chris and Mike back in the hot seat, at the top here, Jordyn, we have a special announcement for our viewers and listeners. JORDYN: Application window is open for session 1 of 2024, folks. You can go to thoughtbot.com/incubator and apply. And Chris and Mike can tell you how easy or hard applying was. MIKE: It was easy. It was totally easy. It's a very straightforward process. CHRIS: Yeah, it was way more straightforward than a lot of applications that we've dealt with in the past, for sure. JORDYN: Ha-ha. And if you've got a business idea that involves software but you haven't gotten anything out there yet, come talk to us. We will help you make sure that it's a good idea and that there are people who might buy it, and maybe get you even a little further than that. MIKE: We actually have a friend who's considering applying. I'll tell him applications are open. He's worried his idea is not big enough to actually be a business idea, so we'll see. CHRIS: Even the process of doing the application was really helpful for us because it helped us get aligned on exactly what we were doing, yeah. JORDYN: I love that. And I found that to be true when I was a founder applying to some of these things, in particular, applying for an SBIR grant was one of the most challenging things that we did, but it was so productive. I was so annoyed by it at the time, and then I cribbed from that thing. It actually sort of forced us to make a business plan [laughs], and then, basically, we ran it, and it was great [laughs]. CHRIS: Yeah. I think that was, for us, that was our point where we were like, "Is this idea fleshed out enough to move forward?" And we were like, "Yes, it is. Let's go. Let's do this." JORDYN: So, use the application as a forcing function, everybody. It will help you clarify your thinking. LINDSEY: Yeah. Jordyn, what would you say to Mike's friend who's questioning if their idea is big enough? How do you respond to that sentiment? JORDYN: That is a fascinating sentiment because I feel like so much more often, I am trying to help founders with the opposite problem where they think this thing is so big that they are not thinking about what step 1 is going to look like. They're just, like, in 10 years, we're going to be the next Amazon, and I'm like, "Maybe [laughter]. Let me help you figure out how to get to that giant vision." So, I don't come across the "Is this big enough to be a business?" question as often. And, I don't know, what would I say? I guess I need the details. LINDSEY: It could be a perfect fit MIKE: It could be. JORDYN: It could be a perfect fit. LINDSEY: In a way, that's what you're answering, right? MIKE: Right. LINDSEY: In some of this work. MIKE: That is true. So, yeah, you guys would certainly...just thinking through the process we've gone through the last two months, it would definitely help them flesh that out. LINDSEY: Which is a great segue. MIKE: Great segue. LINDSEY: Chris and Mike, we're actually coming up to the end of your incubator time. CHRIS: It's so sad. LINDSEY: Can you believe it? MIKE: It's gone by really fast. I mean, eight weeks is not a long time, but it has gone by very, very fast. CHRIS: It felt like a very long time in the middle of it. MIKE: [laughs] CHRIS: But now that it's over, it feels like a blink that it's coming to a close. MIKE: I don't know. It's funny. I think we had some note in our retro today that was like, maybe the very end of the year is not the best time to do an accelerator just because you have, like, the holidays kind of jumping in here in the end. So, that might have helped make it feel like a... I feel like the end of the year always feels like a rush anyway. So, I think just life gets a little bit busier this time of year, too, but yeah. CHRIS: Yeah, my gingerbread man decorating game is, like, really down this season because we've been so busy. Tragic. LINDSEY: Chris, can you remind our viewers and listeners who might not be familiar what was the idea that you and Mike have been exploring with the incubator or, like, what did you come in with? CHRIS: So, with Goodz, what we're trying to do is make little, physical collectibles objects that connect back to the digital content that a user loves. The idea being that today, we are awash in these digital files, links, so many things on our desktops, on our phones, on our devices, and it's really hard to tell which part of those are really, really important to us. So, by giving them a presence in the physical world, that denotes that's something that's really important, worth keeping, worth sharing, and showing off to your friends and family. And to start this off, mostly because Mike and I are both kind of music nerds, we're starting off with a music focus, but at some point, we're hoping to move into other realms, too. LINDSEY: And a lot of the incubator, as repeat listeners will know, is focused on really kind of evolving user interviews all the way through and narrowing in on, you know, a core audience, a core market. Mike, how has that evolution been? I think the last time we chatted was around three weeks ago. What has the latest iteration of user interviews looked like in terms of the people you're talking to and even what you're asking them? MIKE: It's been a really fascinating process. I mean, I'm trying to think of where we were exactly the last time we talked to you, but I think we'd probably just launched the e-commerce site that we had been experimenting with putting up. LINDSEY: Yeah, exactly. MIKE: And so, and we really then started cranking on user interviews kind of once that was live. And so, moving away from the conceptual and more into like, "Okay, share your screen. Here's the link. Like, tell me what you think is going on here," and really sort of getting users who had never, you know, never heard our pitch, never been involved with us to sort of try to wrap their heads around what we are and what we're doing just based on that website and trying to sort of make iterative changes based on that. You know, for me, because I had not done user interviews very much in the past, like, it's very tempting, like, you get sort of 1 note from 1 person in 1 interview, and you're like, oh, we need to change this word. That word didn't make any sense to them, or this thing needs to be blue instead of pink. I think, for me, it was like, all right, how do we kind of synthesize this data in a responsible way? And it emerged naturally, which, I mean, Jordyn and all thoughtbot folks said that it would, but you sort of started hearing the same things again and again. And we never really got to a place where, like, you heard the exact same things from everyone. But there were enough buckets, I feel like, where we're like, okay, like, this part really isn't making that much sense to people, or, like, we do really need to, you know, structure this differently to convey. So, it was a bunch of that kind of work over the last three weeks or so and sort of just getting a sense of like, are we conveying our message? It's hard. I mean, it's a new, like, we're not the only people making physical products with NFC chips in them, but it is not the most common, like, product. Like, it is kind of a new category out there. And so, really trying to understand just right off the bat, do people get it? And you get wildly different answers [laughs] as to whether they get it or they don't, which has been fascinating, too. JORDYN: Yeah. [crosstalk 7:12] LINDSEY: Chris or Jordyn, anything to add there? JORDYN: Yeah. You get the best, like, bootcamp in the don't overreact to a single user interview experience in some ways because we [laughs]...it would literally be like, interview in the morning someone says this thing. Interview in the afternoon, someone says the exact opposite thing [laughter]. And you're like, okay [laughs], like, which one of these things are we going to respond to, if either of them? CHRIS: Yeah. It's hard. As somebody with, like, a strong desire to please, it's hard to reign yourself in and want to change things immediately, but it definitely makes sense to do so in the long run. MIKE: But yeah, but, I mean, like I said, I do feel like it kind of came down to buckets. It's like, okay, you're that. I can, like, categorize you with all those other people and you with all those other people. And yeah, I hear you. I'm like, yeah, it's tempting to want to please them all. But I think with this one, we're fighting hard to be like...or we sort of have a philosophy that this product is emphatically not for everyone because, at the end of the day, you get a lot of people who are like, "Wait, you're just putting a link to a streaming playlist on a physical object? Why don't I just text someone the link?" And sometimes that breaks down by age group, like, 18-year-olds being like, "What are you talking about, old man? LINDSEY: [laughs] MIKE: Like, why the hell would I do that? It makes no sense." But it sort of skews all over the age ranges. But then there'll be other people who are 18 or 20 years old who are like, "Wow, I never had cassettes when I was growing up," or "I never got to make, you know, mixtapes or CD-Rs for people." And like, you know, so it's, yeah, it's about finding the people who are the early adopters. As Jordyn has said a lot, it's like, we need to find those early adopters and, like, make them love us, and then other people will come later. CHRIS: I mean, some of the most gratifying moments, I think, are there's been some interviews where people have been so excited that after the interview, they've gone and purchased our products, which is just, like, the coolest feeling ever. LINDSEY: Wow. MIKE: Yeah, it's pretty cool. LINDSEY: Are you open to sharing a little bit more about what those buckets or what those segments look like? CHRIS: I mean, I think there's folks who outright just get it almost immediately, and I think those people tend to be hardcore music collectors, hardcore music fans, Jordyn and Mike, please feel free to jump in if you disagree with any of this. They just get it right off the bat. Then I think there's, in my experience, there's another bucket of people who are a little more hesitant, and maybe they wouldn't buy it, but they seemed really excited about the idea of getting one as a gift, which is really interesting. They're like, "I don't know if I'd buy this, but I'd really like to have one." And then there is another segment, like, which Mike just mentioned, of folks who just don't see the value in this whatsoever, which is totally fair. MIKE: Yeah, totally. I think it's also...I see it almost as, like, a matrix. There's, like, desirability, and, like, technical understanding because people were like, "I technically understand what this is, and I do not want it in my life." Or like, "I get what this is and, oh my God, I have to have that," or like, "I don't really understand what you're talking about, but, man, I love physical stuff. Like, sure I want..." you know, it's like, it goes across those two planes, I think. JORDYN: I will say that it, I think you alluded to this before, Mike, but, like, we're going to run a whole analysis of...because we did a ton of interviews, and we haven't actually done that, like, sort of data-driven thing of like, are there trends in the demographics somewhere that we're not getting? Because the pattern has not been there. Like, someone will talk to an 18-year-old, you know, at 1:00 p.m. who is just, like, "Why on earth would I ever want this?" And then I, like, you know, will talk to a 21-year-old who is like, "I love this." And it's like, why? Like, this is the answer. The thing we're trying to get out now is, like, what is the difference between those two people? It's not a demographic thing that we can see from the outside, so what is it instead? But with consumer stuff like this, often, you don't necessarily...you don't need that in such great detail when you're starting. You just kind of, like, throw it out there and see who grabs it, and then you start to build sort of cohorts around that. And that is kind of what these interviews have shown us is that there are people who will grab it, and that was part of what we were trying to validate. Are there people who Mike and Chris do not know personally who will, like, get this and be psyched about it immediately? And that is, you know, check unequivocally true. Like Chris said, there are people that we were, you know, that we had recruited on this user interviews platform [chuckles] who then just turned around and bought the product because they were so psyched about it. One of the guys I interviewed was like, "Can I invest in your company right now?" Like, during the interview, and I was like, "Maybe?" [laughs] CHRIS: There was, like, another person who wanted to work for us immediately... JORDYN: Yes, great. CHRIS: Which was really interesting and kind of awesome. JORDYN: Yeah, they're like, "Are you hiring?" You're just like, okay. So, it's validating that there are people all over that spectrum. Like, where those trends lie, though, which is, I think, what you were asking, Lindsey, not as straightforward and in a fascinating way. So, we still have a little more, like, number crunching to do on that, and we may have an answer for you later. LINDSEY: That's exciting. Exactly. I'm curious: what are the connecting dots between the folks who are really into it, and how might that impact how you approach the business? MIKE: Yeah, it's hard. It's definitely going to be a niche to start. And so, we got to figure out kind of got to crack the code on how we find those people. LINDSEY: And, Mike, I think you had also mentioned last time that, you know, you or both of you have a network kind of in the music industry, and you've been floating the idea past some people there. Have you been having more of those conversations over the last few weeks, too? MIKE: We have, yeah. Well, so yeah, we've had a couple more just kind of straight-up pitch calls versus like, "Hey, there's this cool thing we're doing," and having those people be like, "Cool. Let's do a pilot." And so, they're ordering, you know, 500 or 1,000 units at a time, which is rad. LINDSEY: Whoa. MIKE: For the first...yeah. LINDSEY: Okay, very cool. MIKE: Yeah. The first two or three of those should happen in January or maybe early February, but yeah, those are done and in production and arriving soon. So, that's really exciting with some cool bands. We won't say the names in case it doesn't [laughs] work out, but it does look like it's going to work out. LINDSEY: And so, it's specific bands that are creating merch for their fans. MIKE: Yeah, yeah. So, we're working with one artist manager on a band that he manages, and then we're working with a record label. And they're going to try with a couple of smaller artists. And so, yeah, it's actually really good for us. One is going to be straight-up sales, most likely, and it's, like, selling these things. And the other ones will be given away as kind of promo items on tour artists, which is also a really interesting use case for us, too, that we're excited about and using them as a way to sort of get email addresses and, like, fans engaged and stuff, so... And then yeah, then I had another conversation, and they want to talk about doing some pilots. So far, like, that side of things is going great. We're sort of 3 for 4 in terms of initial calls leading to pilots right off the bat, which is kind of unheard of from [laughs] my experience. LINDSEY: Yeah, I'd say so. No, a lot of very good signals. MIKE: Really good signals. But then we were able to turn some of those into user interview conversations, actually, as well over the course of the last couple of weeks, which has been really helpful, like, talking to manager and label-type people about what they might want out of a software product that is associated with this because we're not just thinking about making physical products but sort of coupling that with an online toolset. And that part, we haven't gotten as far along as we did with the direct-to-consumer e-commerce, but it's been fascinating. LINDSEY: So, what has been happening with the online shop? As you noted the last time we talked, it was just a baby less than a week-old Shopify site getting, you know, some first hits of people going around maybe putting things in their basket. I'm sure a lot has happened over the last few weeks. What kind of work, what kind of insights have you seen around the site? CHRIS: We've been, I mean, we've been selling stuff at a slow but steady pace. It's been great because it's enough to, you know, because our product really straddles the line between physical and digital; there's a lot of physical aspects to this that we need to figure out and kind of the level of orders that we've been getting have been really...it's, like, the perfect number to think about fulfillment issues, things like what kind of package does this go in? How do we mail this out? Things along those lines, just very basic, practical questions that needed to be answered. But yeah, it's been great. We actually, I mean, we hit our goal for the amount of these that we wanted to get in people's hands before Christmas, which is pretty awesome. And we continue now with the lessons learned. I think our plan is to try and make a push for Valentine's Day because these seem like they would be a great Valentine's Day present: make a playlist; share it with your loved one; share it with a friend; share it with somebody you don't like at all. Who knows? LINDSEY: [laughs] CHRIS: But yeah, that's kind of our next sales push, we think. LINDSEY: The hate playlist. CHRIS: [inaudible 15:40] hate playlist. MIKE: Yeah, perfect. Real passive-aggressive. CHRIS: Just Blue Monday, like, by New Order, like, 14 times. LINDSEY: [laughs] Yeah, every song is just like a sub-tweet... MIKE: [laughs] LINDSEY: About something they've done and [inaudible 15:53] Have you updated the site? Like, how do you decide what gets updated on the site? [laughter] Everyone laughed. MIKE: It was a little haphazard, I would say, there for a minute. But -- CHRIS: We got the site up very, very quickly. And from my perspective, I've been dealing a lot with the physical side of things, just getting great product photos up there, which is, like, something that thoughtbot has actually been super helpful with. You know, everybody on the team is starting to submit photos of their Goodz in the real world and using their Goodz, which is great. And we continued to update the site with that but also making sure our text made sense, refining copy in response to things that people said during user interviews. The checkout process, the process of adding the URL that we point the Good to that, we did a bunch of experimentation there based on what people were saying during user interviews. So, it has been a little haphazard, but we have made a bunch of changes. LINDSEY: Jordyn, has there been any experiment, like, structured experimentation around the site or how you're getting people to the site? JORDYN: Mike actually did a little bit of ad funnel work that I don't think we've, like, even remotely scratched the surface of. So, I wish I could say that was conclusive, but I think we've found a little bit more...here are plenty of sales that are from people that nobody here knows. MIKE: True. JORDYN: So, people are finding out about this somehow [laughs]. But I think it's a little bit, like, word-of-mouth sort of chain of events is our sense so far. I wanted to say, though, about the site, we did get what Chris was saying about, like, this experiment was, in part, about fulfillment and figuring out how fulfillment would work and packaging, and not just messaging and not just closing the sale with consumers, but also, just, like, how do you fulfill these? But one of the really fun things we've managed to do in the last, since we talked last time, which I can't even believe...I feel like this wasn't even a gleam in our eyes for this project, but we managed to get out, like, stood up and out the door, and working in production in the last few weeks is a way for folks to actually assign the URL to their mixtape themselves. Previously, the plan had just been for Chris and Mike to do that, which is fine but a little bit unscalable, right? CHRIS: That was a huge dream or, like, that was high on our wish list. And we didn't think we'd get to it. And it's been pretty amazing that we have, yeah. JORDYN: Yeah, so that was one thing that is an update to the site. So, then we had to do a little bit of, like, micro iterating, on, like, the messaging around that. Like, how do you communicate to people? This is, like, a little bit of an abstract challenge, right? Like, here's this object. It's going to point to a digital thing. How do you tell the physical object which digital thing it's pointing to [laughs]? So, a lot of our recent interviewing has been to sort of get inside the mind of the consumer about how they're thinking about that and how we can best communicate that to them. So that's been a lot of the, like, recent iteration is getting that mechanism stood up and then the messaging around it. CHRIS: It's also really cool because it adds to the utility of the object itself in the sense that now our Goodz, when a user gets one, they can add a URL to their Good themselves, but they can also change that URL. So, it's much more malleable. JORDYN: Which is something that in one of our early user interviews was, like, a hot request [laughs], and we were like, "Someday, someday." And it's, you know, I should actually go back to her and be like, "Someday is today." [laughter] MIKE: Well, yeah, and just as Chris was saying, it just makes it so much easier to ship these out without having to manually load them, and you could sell them, and yeah, retail outlets, like, it just opens up a lot of opportunities for us for them. LINDSEY: And Mike mentioned that some of the, like, kind of future looking aspirations for the solution are, you know, how might you figure out the B2B, like, SaaS aspect of it? Jordyn, is that something that's been explored at all at this point, or is it early? JORDYN: That experiment I just described is actually sort of the link between the two projects. It sort of proves the concept and proves the value in some ways, and it has given us a little bit more visibility into sort of how we're going to execute some of this technical stuff. Like, how easy, how difficult is it going to be? These little experiments all build your confidence around your ability to do those things and what it's going to look like. And so, this experiment absolutely feeds into that question. But I would say it was really this week where we got to have a really fun brainstorming sort of blue sky conversation about that that I don't think would have been nearly as both creative and blue sky or rooted in reality as it was if we hadn't done these experiments and hadn't talked to so many...we had so much work...we could participate in a conversation like that so much more confidently and creatively because all of us had a lot more shared context. So, we really got to dream big, like, what is a SaaS platform built around these physical objects? And I don't want to, you know, I'm not going to give it away at this moment because we had a lot of, like, really cool ideas. It's one part talking to the B2B customer, which, you know, you mentioned earlier, getting what their pain points are, and what they're looking for, what they need, but then also dreaming big about now we understand the technology a little bit more and how it feels to use it. What does that unlock in our brains? The analogy I used in that conversation and that I use all the time is like, the users of Twitter invented hashtags, right? Twitter did not invent hashtags. And so, hey, everybody out there, newsflash: users invented hashtags, not Twitter or something else, if you didn't realize that Twitter was where those things kind of emerged. But there was just a user behavior that was happening in the wild, and Twitter was just very good at making that easier for them, looking at that and being like, "Oh, hey, is this a thing you all want to do? Here, we'll make that even more useful for you." And it was part of Twitter's early success that they were able to do that. And so, that was the kind of thinking we were trying to employ here is, like, now that we have these objects and we understand a little bit more how it feels to use them, you get these second order effects. What does that then make us think of? What is then possible to us that we wouldn't have been able to dream of previously because we didn't quite get it? So, that was really happening this week. LINDSEY: So, as the incubator time wraps up, what are the kind of final activities or deliverables, one, that Goodz wants and you know that they're going to get? What are the parting gifts as we send you out into the next phase? MIKE: Yeah, well, loads of stuff. I mean, we're getting all that code that [SP] Guillermo and the guys worked on to let people set their own playlist settings. And we've got that up in a GitHub repository now. And we've got a bunch of great design work that's all being handed over, like Chris was saying, product shots that a bunch of the team members were taking, synthesizing all the user interviews. We're actually sort of making some kind of final reports on those, so it's kind of more usable, actionable data for us. The whole website, you know, that didn't exist before. And that will sort of continue to grow as the entire website for Goodz moving forward. I don't know. That's a lot. What else was there, Chris? CHRIS: As a result of all that, I mean, one of the things I'm most excited about is now we have a small user base who actually has the physical products that, hopefully, we can get them to answer questions. That's huge for what's coming next. Starting the path towards the SaaS platform, too, it's really helped narrow our scope and think about, you know, how to make that successful or if it will be successful. LINDSEY: Yeah, that sounded like a big discussion this week that I know has been on your minds from the beginning. Wait, the last time, also, you said you were starting to get emails, too. Have you emailed anyone yet, or are you still holding on to them? MIKE: Oh. No, I still haven't sent a newsletter out [laughs], actually, but we have Mailchimp set up. Yeah, no, we've got a good kind of core of our, yeah, early folks on there. We'll start getting a newsletter out with some sort of regularity. We're building up the socials very slowly just focusing on Instagram mostly right now and trying to get back into that game. It's been a long time since I've had to do kind of social marketing stuff. And so, it's a lot of work, as it turns out, but we'll get all that cooking. I think this was just such a sprint, working with the thoughtbot folks and trying to get all this stuff done. Before the end of the year, now we can sort of take a breath and start engaging folks in the new year. LINDSEY: Yeah. Well, so, do you know what you want to do next or what the next phase looks like? Are you going to do fundraising? MIKE: We're certainly going to continue to have some fundraising conversations. We've had some conversations emerge over the last, you know, since we've been in thoughtbot, again, not the greatest time of year to try to be raising a round. But we're also not, like, desperately, urgently needing to do that right this second. I think, you know, part of it is the fundraising landscape, you know, doesn't look amazing. And we're still sort of building out a lot of traction, and sort of every week, there's some new, exciting thing, or we've got some new, big artists who wants to do something. So, I think, in some ways, to the extent that we can bootstrap for a little while, I think we will, yeah. So, we will focus on...I'd like to get back to focusing on, like, B2B sales. I'd like to hit the ground in January and just start talking to a bunch of music industry folks. And thinking ahead a little bit, sort of Q1 and Q2, like, what are the big tentpole events? You know, you got South by Southwest coming up in March. You got Record Store Day in April, or whenever it is. But, you know, there's, like, a bunch of those sorts of things that it's like, oh, let's not let those things suddenly be tomorrow. Like, right now, they're all still two or three/four months out. Like, let's make sure we're queued up for those things and see what happens. And Jordyn has been giving really good advice on the fundraising side where it's just like, just keep getting cool stuff like that and just do almost like little drip campaigns with funders who aren't maybe giving you the time of day or think it's too early, and just kind of keep going back to them. Like, the best excuse to go back to funders is like, "Hey, we just closed this new thing. We just launched this new thing. We just got this thing working. Hey, we're launching with this major band," Like, enough of those happen, and I think the fundraising will happen more organically. It's a strategy. CHRIS: I think we're really lucky in the fact that, you know, now, at this point, we're not talking about vapourware, you know, like, these are actual things that actually exist that, like, anybody could go onto our site right now and buy, which is awesome. And because of that, the product's going to continue to evolve, and, hopefully, our sales record will continue to evolve, too. LINDSEY: Amazing. Well, that feels like a good place to wrap up, maybe. Are you going to hang around in our incubator Slack, the thoughtbot incubator Slack for all our past founders? MIKE: Yes. Emphatically, yes. LINDSEY: Okay. We're holding you to it then [laughs]. CHRIS: I'm excited about that. We met with the other founders yesterday for the first time, and it was a really great and interesting conversation. It was cool seeing how diverse all these projects are and how folks are working on things that we had no idea about and how we're working on stuff that they have no idea about, and it was really great. It felt like a good cross-pollination. MIKE: Agreed. LINDSEY: That's awesome to hear. Jordyn, any final thoughts? JORDYN: [inaudible 26:58] out there listening and watching and want to join this community of founders [laughs], don't you want to have office hours with Chris and Mike? LINDSEY: All right, thoughtbot.com/incubator. You can apply for session 1 of the 2024 incubator program. And yeah, you two, if you have more recommendations, referrals, definitely send them our way. Chris, Mike, Jordyn, thank you so much once again for joining and catching us up on all the exciting developments for Goodz. MIKE: Thank you. LINDSEY: A lot of really cool milestones. JORDYN: I got to say, so much good stuff. And like, you know, just wrapping it all up almost diminishes the impact of any single one of those things that we just talked about, but it's, like, pretty amazing. People out there, apply to the incubator but also go buy yourself a Goodz mixtape. It's cool with playlists on it. MIKE: It's a good point. JORDYN: Give it to your BFF. Come on. LINDSEY: Getthegoodz.com. MIKE: Getthegoodz.com. Awesome. LINDSEY: All right. Thanks, Chris and Mike. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guests: Chris Cerrito, Jordyn Bonds, and Mike Rosenthal.

If you want to know the 5 Most Common Recovery Roadblocks with Chris Tronsdon (an incredible anxiety and OCD therapist), you are in the right place. Today Chris and I will go over the 5 Most common anxiety, depression, & OCD roadblocks and give you 6 highly effective treatment strategies you can use today.  Kimberley: Welcome everybody. We have the amazing Chris Trondsen here with us today. Thank you for coming, Chris. Chris: Yes, Kim, thanks for having me. I'm super excited about being here today and just about this topic. Kimberley: Yes. So, for those of you who haven't attended one of the IOCDF Southern California conferences, we had them in Southern California. We have presented on this exact topic, and it was so well received that we wanted to make sure that we were spreading it out to all the folks that couldn't come.  You and I spoke about the five most common anxiety & OCD treatment roadblocks, and then we gave six strategic solutions. But today, we're actually broadening it because it applies to so many people. We're talking about the five most common anxiety treatment roadblocks, with still six solutions and six strategies they can use. Thank you for coming on because it was such a powerful presentation. Chris: No, I agree. I mean, we had standing room only, and people really came up to us afterwards and just said how impactful it was. And then we actually redid it at the International OCD Foundation, and it was one of the best-attended talks at the event. And then we got a lot of good feedback, and people kept messaging me like, “I want to hear it. I couldn't go to the conference.” I'd play clips for my group, and they're like, “When is it going to be a podcast?” I was like, “I'll ask Kim.” I'm glad you said yes because I do believe for anybody going through any mental health condition, this list is bound, and I think the solutions will really be something that can be a game changer in their recovery. Kimberley: Absolutely, absolutely. I love it mostly because, and we're going to get straight into these five roadblocks, they're really about mindset and going into recovery. I think it's something we're not talking about a lot. We're talking about a lot of treatment, a lot of skills, and tools, but the strategies and understanding those roadblocks can be so important. Chris: Yeah. I did a talk for a support group. They had asked me to come and speak, and I just got this idea to talk about mindset. I did this presentation on mindset, and people were like, “Nobody's talking about it.” In the back of my head, I'm like, “Kim and I did.” But we're the only ones. Because I do think so many people get the tools, right? The CBT tools, they get the ERP tools, the mindfulness edition, and people really find the tools that work for them. But when I really think of my own personal recovery with multiple mental health diagnoses, it was always about mindset. And that's what I like about our talk today. It's universal for anyone going through any mental health condition, anxiety base, and it's that mindset that I think leads to recovery. It shouldn't be the other way around. The tools are great, but the mindset needs to be there. Kimberley: Yeah. We are specifically speaking to the folks who are burnt out, feeling overwhelmed, feeling a lack of hope of recovery. They really need a kickstart, because that was actually the big title of the presentation. It was really addressing those who are just exhausted with the process and need a little bit of a strategy and mindset shift. Chris: Yeah. I don't want to compare, but I broke my ankle when I was hiking in Hawaii, and I have two autoimmune diseases. Although those ailments have caused problems, especially the autoimmune, when I think back to my mental health journey, that always wore me out more because it's with you all the time, 24/7. It's your mental health. When my autoimmune diseases act up, I'm exhausted, I'm burnt out, but it's temporary. Or my ankle, when it acts up, I have heating pads, I have things I can do, but your brain is with you 24/7. I do believe that's why a lot of people resonate with this messaging—they are exhausted. They're busting their butt in treatment, but they're tired and hitting roadblocks. And that's why this talk really came about. Kimberley: Yeah, exactly. All right, let's get into it here in a second. I just want to give one metaphor with that. I once had a client many years ago give the metaphor. She said, “I feel like I'm running a marathon and my whole family are standing on the out, like on the sidelines, and they're all clapping, but I'm just like faceplant down in the middle of the road.” She's like, “I'm trying to get up, I'm trying to get up, and everyone's telling me, ‘Come on, you can do it.' It's so hard because you're so exhausted and you've already run a whole bunch of miles.” And so I really think about that kind of metaphor for today. If people are feeling that way, hopefully they can take away some amazing nuggets of information.  Chris: Absolutely. That's a good visual. Faceplant. Kimberley: It was such a great and powerful visual because then I understood this client's experience. Like, “Oh, okay. You're really tired. You're really exhausted.” ROADBLOCK #1: YOU BEAT YOURSELF UP! Okay, let's get into it. So, I'm going to go first because the number one roadblock we talked about, not that these are in any particular order, but the one we came up first was that you beat yourself up. This is a major roadblock to recovery for so many disorders. You beat yourself up for having the disorder. You beat yourself up for not coping with it as well as you could. You beat yourself up if you have OCD for having these intrusive thoughts that you would never want to have. Or you're beating yourself up because you don't have motivation because you have, let's say, some coexisting depression.  The important thing to know there is, while beating yourself up feels productive, it might feel like you're motivating yourself, or you may feel like you deserve it. It actually only makes it harder. It only makes it feel like you've got this additional thing. Again, a lot of my patients—let's use the marathon example—might yell at themselves the whole way through the marathon, but it's not a really great experience if you're doing that, and it takes a lot of energy.  SOLUTION #1: SELF-COMPASSION So what we offered here as a strategic solution is self-compassion—trying to motivate and encourage yourself using kindness. If you're going through a hard day, maybe, just if you've never tried this before, trial what it would be like to encourage yourself with kind words or asking for support, asking for help so that you're not burning all that extra energy, making it so much harder on yourself, increasing your suffering. Because I often say to patients, the more you suffer, the more you actually deserve self-compassion. It's not the other way around. It's not that the more you suffer, the less you deserve it. Do you have any thoughts on that, Chris? Chris: Oh yeah. I would say I see that across the board with my clients, this harshness, and there's this good intention behind it, this idea that if I can just bully myself into recovery. I always try to remind clients that anxiety-based disorders, it's a part of our bodies as well. Our brain is a part of our body, just like our arm, our tibia, our leg, all these other bones, but there's a lack of self-empathy that we have for ourselves, as if it's something that we're choosing to do. Someone with a broken leg doesn't wake up in the morning and get mad at themselves that their leg is still broken. They have understanding, and they're working on their exercises to heal. It's the same with these disorders.  So, the reason I love self-compassion is when we go and step in to help one of our friends, we use a certain tone, we use certain words, we tap into their strengths, we use encouragement because we know that method is going to be what boosts them up and helps them get through that rough patch. But for some reason, when it's ourselves, we completely abandon everything we know that's supportive, and we talk to ourselves in a way that I almost picture like a really negative boot camp instructor, like in the military, just yelling and screaming into submission. The other thing is when we're beating ourselves up like that, we're more likely to tap into our unhelpful habits. We're more likely to shut down and isolate, which we see a lot in BDD, social anxiety, et cetera. But that self-compassion isn't like a fake pop culture support. It's really tapping into meeting yourself where you're at, giving yourself some understanding, and tapping into the strategies that have worked in the past when you're in a low moment.  I know sometimes people are like, “I don't know how to do that,” but you're doing it to everybody else in your life. Now it's time to give yourself that same self-compassion that you've been giving to everybody important to you. Kimberley: Yeah, and we actually have a few episodes on Your Anxiety Toolkit on exactly how to embrace self-compassion, like how that might actually look. So, if people are really needing more information there, I can add in the show notes some links to some resources there as well.  ROADBLOCK #2: THERE WILL BE HARD DAYS  Okay. Now, Chris, can you tell us about the second most common or another common anxiety roadblock around this idea that there will be hard days? Chris: There's always these great images if you Google about what people think recovery will look like versus what recovery looks like. I love those images because there is this idea. We see a lot of perfectionism in anxiety disorders. In OCD, we see perfectionism. So, this idea of, like, I should be here and I should easily scoot to the end. It's not going to be like that; it's bumpy, it's ups and downs. We know so much factors into or impact how our mental health disorder shows up. We can't always control our triggers. Sometimes if we haven't slept well or there's a lot of change in our life, we could have more anxiety. So, it's going to ebb and flow.  So, when we have this fixed mindset of like, it has to be perfect, there has to be absolutely no bumps on the road, no turbulence, we're going to set ourselves up for failure because the day we have a hard day, we want to completely shut down. So I really believe, in this case, the solution is thinking bigger. If you're thinking day to day, sometimes if you're too in it, you're dealing with depression, you're really feeling bad, you skipped school because you have a presentation, social anxiety is acting up. You think bigger picture. Why am I here? Why am I doing this? Why have I sought out treatment? Listen to this podcast. What am I trying to accomplish?  SOLUTION #2: KNOW YOUR WHY I know for me in my own recovery, knowing my why was so important. There were certain things in my life that I found important to achieve, and I kept that as the figurative carrot in front of the mule to get me to go. So, that way, if I had a rough day, I thought bigger picture. What do I need to do today to make sure that I meet my goals? And so, I believe everybody needs to know their why.  Now, it doesn't have to be grandiose. Some people want to build a school and teach kids in underprivileged countries. Amazing why. But other people are sometimes like, “I just want to be able to make my own choices today and not feel like I base them out of anxiety.” There's no right or wrong why, but if you can know what beacon you're going to, it really helps you get through those hard days.  What about for you? When we talk about this, what comes up for you? Kimberley: Well, I think that for me personally, the why is a really important mindset shift because often I can get to this sort of, like you said, perfectionistic why. Like, the goal is to have no anxiety, or the goal is to have no bad days. We see on social media these very relaxed people who just seem to go with the flow, and that's your goal. But I have to often with myself do a little reality check and go, “Okay, are you doing recovery to get there? Because that goal might be setting you up for constant disappointment and failure. That mightn't be your genetic makeup.”  I'm never going to be like the go-with-the-flow Kimberley. That's just not who I am. But if I can instead shift it to the why of like, what do I value? What are the things I want to be able to do despite having anxiety in my life? Or, despite having a hard day, like you said, how do I want that to look? And once I can get to that imagery, then I have a really clear picture. So, when I do have a bad day, it doesn't feel so defeating, like what's the point I give up, because the goal was realistic. Chris: For me, a big part of my why in recovery, once I started getting into a place where I was managing the disorders I was dealing with—OCD, body dysmorphic disorder, I had a lot of generalized anxiety, and major depressive disorder—I was like, “I need to give back. There's not people my age talking about this. There's not enough treatment providers.” There was somewhere, like in the middle of my treatment, that I was like, “I don't know how I'm going to advocate. I don't know what that's going to look like, but I have to give back.” And so, on those hard days when I would normally want to just like, “Well, I don't care that it's noon, I'm shutting it down, I'm going into my bed, I'm just going to sleep the rest of the day,” reminding myself like there's people out there suffering that can't find providers, that can't find treatment, may not even know they have these disorders. I have to be one of the voices in the community that really advocates and gets people education and resources. And so, I didn't let myself get in bed. I looked at the day as quarters. Okay, the morning and the afternoon's a little rough, but I still have evening and night. Let me turn it around. I have to go because I have this big goal, this ambitious dream. I really want to do it. So that bigger why kept me just on track to push through hard days. ROADBLOCK #3: YOU RUN OUT OF STAMINA Kimberley: Amazing. I love that so much. All right. The third roadblock that we see is that people run out of stamina. I actually think this is one that really ties into what we were just talking about. Imagine we're running a marathon. If you're sprinting for the first 20 miles, you probably won't finish the race. Or even if you sprint the first two miles, you probably won't finish the marathon.  One of the things is—and actually, I'll go straight to the strategy and the thing we want you to practice—we have to learn to pace ourselves throughout recovery. As I said, if you sprint the first few miles, you will fall flat on your face. You're already dealing with so much. As you said, having a mental health struggle is the most exhausting thing that I've ever been through. It requires such of your attention. It requires such restraint from not engaging in it and doing the treatment and using the tools. It's a lot of work, and I encourage and congratulate anyone who's trying. The fact that you're trying and you're experimenting with what works and what doesn't, and you're following your homework of your clinician or the workbook that you've used—that's huge. But pacing yourself is so important. So, what might that look like? Often, people, students of mine from CBT School, will say, “I go all out. I do a whole day of exposures and I practice response prevention, and I just go so hard that the next day I am wiped. I can't get out of bed. I don't want to do it anymore. It was way too much. I flooded myself with anxiety.” So, that's one way I think that it shows up. I'll often say, “Okay, let's not beat yourself up for that.” We'll just use that as data that that pace didn't work. We want to find a rhythm and a pace that allow you to recover. It's sort of like this teeter-totter. We call it in Australia a seesaw. You want to do the work, but not to the degree where you faceplant down on the concrete. We want to find that balance.  I know for me, when I was recovering from postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome, which is a chronic illness that I had, it was so hard because the steps to recovery was exercise, but it was like literally walking to the corner and back first, and then walking half a block, and then walking three-quarters of a block, and then having my husband pick me up, then walking one block. And that's all I was able to do without completely faceplanting the next day, literally and figuratively.  My mind kept saying to me, “You should be able to go faster. Everybody else is going faster. Everyone else can walk a mile or a block. So you should be able to.” And so, I would push myself too hard, and then I'd have to start all over again because I was comparing myself to someone who was not in my position.  SOLUTION #3: PACE YOURSELF So, try to find a pace that works for you, and do not compare your pace with me or Chris or someone in your support group, or someone you see on social media. You have to find and test a pace that works for you. Do you have any thoughts, Chris? Chris: Yeah. I would say in this one, and you alluded to it, that comparison, that is going to get you in this roadblock because you're going to be looking to your left and your right. Why is that person my age working and I'm not? It's not always comparing yourself. Sometimes, like you said, it is people in your support group. It's people that you see advocating for the disorder you may have. But sometimes people even look at celebrities or they'll look at friends from college, and can I do that? The comparison never motivates you, it never boosts you; it just makes you feel less than. That's why one of my favorite quotes is, “Chase the dream, not the competition.” It's really finding a timeline that works best for you.  I get why people have this roadblock. As somebody who's lived through multiple mental health disorder diagnoses, it's like, once we find the treatment, we want to escalate to the finish line, and we'll push ourselves in treatment sometimes too much. And then we have one of those days where we can't even get out of bed because we're just beat up, we're exhausted, and it's counterproductive.  I wanted to add one thing too. The recovery part may not even be what you're doing with your clinician in a session that you are not pacing yourself with. My biggest pacing problem was after recovery, not that the disorders magically went away, they were in remission, I was working on doing great, but it was like, I went to martial arts, tennis, learned Spanish, started volunteering at an animal shelter, went back to school, got a job, started dating. It was so much. Because I felt like I was behind, I needed to push myself.  The problem that started to happen was I was focusing less on the enjoyable process of dating or getting a job, or going back to school. I was so fixated on the finish line. “I need to be there, I need to be there. What's next? What's next?” I got burnt out from that, and I was not enjoying anything I was doing.  So, I would say even after you're managing your disorder, be careful about not pacing yourself, even in that recovery process of getting back into the lifestyle that you want. Kimberley: Yeah, absolutely. I would add too, just as a side point, anyone who is managing a mental health issue or an anxiety disorder, we do also have to fill our cup with the things that fill our hearts. I know that sounds very cliche and silly, but in order to pace ourselves and to have the motivation and to use the skills, we do have to find a balance of not just doing all the hard things, but making sure you schedule time to rest and eat and drink and see friends if that fills your cup, or read if that fills your cup. So, I think it's also finding a rhythm and a balance of the things that fill your cup and identifying that, yes, recovery is hard. It will deplete your stores of energy. So, finding things that fill that cup for you is important.   Chris: Well, you just made a good point too. In my recovery, all those things you mentioned, I thought of those as like weakness, like I just wasted an hour reading. Sometimes even with friends. That one, not as much, because I saw value in friendship. But if I just watched a movie or relaxed, or even just hung out with friends, it felt like a waste. I'm like, “How dare I am behind everybody else? I should be working. I should be this. I should move up.” A lot of should statements, a lot of perfectionist expectations of myself.  So, the goal for me or the treatment for me wasn't to then go to the other extreme and just give up everything; it was really to ask myself, like you said, how can I fill my cup in ways that are important and see value and getting a breakfast burrito with a friend and talking for three hours and not thinking like, “Oh, I should have been this because I got to get my degree.” I'm glad that you brought that up. I always think of like we're overflowing our cup with mental health conditions. We have to be able to have those offsets that drain the cup so we have a healthy balance. So, a great point. ROADBLOCK #4: NOT OWNING YOUR RECOVERY Kimberley: I agree. So important. Would you tell us about owning your recovery? Because you have a really great story with this. Chris: Yeah. People ask me all the time how I got better. A lot of people with body dysmorphic disorder struggle to get better. Obviously, we know that with obsessive-compulsive disorder, major depressive disorder, et cetera. So, a lot of people will ask sometimes, and I always say to them, if I had to come up with one thing, it was because I made my mental health recovery number one. I felt that it was like the platform that I was building my whole life on. I'm so bad with the-- what is it? The house, the-- I'm not a builder.  Kimberley: Like the foundation. Chris: Thank you. Clearly, I'm not going to be making tools tomorrow or making things with tools. But yeah, like a house has to have a nice foundation. You would never build a house on a rocky side of the mountain. And so, I had to give up a lot, like most of us do, as we start to get worse. I became housebound and I dropped out of college, and I gave up a job. I was working in the entertainment industry, and I really enjoyed it. I was going to film school, and I was happy. I had to give all that up because I couldn't even leave my house because of the disorder.  SOLUTION #5: MAKE YOUR RECOVERY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING So, when I was going to treatment and I was really starting to see it work, I was clear to that finish line of what I needed to do. So I made it the most important thing. It wasn't just me; it was my support system. My treatment was about a four-hour round trip from my house, so my mom and I would meet up every day. We drive up to LA. I go to my OCD therapist, and I'd go to my psychiatrist and then my BDD therapist and support group, and then come home. There's times I was exhausted, I wanted to give up, I was over it, but I never ever, ever put it to number two or three. I almost had this top three list in my head, and number one was always my recovery. My mom too, I mean, when she talks, she'll always say it's the most important thing. If my job was going to fire me because I couldn't come in because I had to take my kid on Wednesdays to treatment, I was going to get fired and find a new job. We just had to make this important.   As I was getting better, there were certain opportunities that came back to me from my jobs or from school. My therapist and I and my mom just decided, “Let's hold off on this. Let's really, really put effort into the treatment. You're doing so well.” One of the things that I see all the time, my mom and I run a very successful family and loved ones group. A lot of times, the parents aren't really making it the priority for their kids or the kids, or the people with the disorders aren't really making it a priority. It's totally understandable if there's things like finances and things, barriers. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when people have access to those things, they're just not owning it. Sometimes they're not owning it because they're not taking it seriously or not making it important. Or other times, people are expecting someone else to get them better.  I loved having a team. I didn't have a big team. I came from nothing. It was a very small team. I probably needed residential or something bigger. I only really had my mom's support, but we all leaned on each other. But I always knew it was me in the driver's seat. At the end of the day, my therapist couldn't save me, my mom couldn't save me, they couldn't come to my house and pull me out of bed or do an exposure for me, or have me go out in public during the daytime because of BDD. I had to be the one to do it. I could lean on them as support systems and therapists are there for, but at the end of the day, it was my choice. I had to do it. When my head hit the pillow, I had to make sure that I did everything I possibly could that day to recover.  When I took ownership, it actually gave me freedom. I wasn't waiting for someone to come along. I wasn't focusing on other things. I made it priority number one. I truly believe that that was the thing that got me better. Once again, didn't have a lot of resources, leaned a lot on self-help books and stuff because I needed a higher level of care, but there was none and we couldn't afford it. I don't want anyone to hear this podcast and think, “Well, I can't find treatment in my area.” That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying, whatever you have access to, own it, make it a priority, and definitely be in that leader's seat because that's going to be what's going to get you better. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. I think too when I used to work as a personal trainer, I would say to them, “You can come to training once a week, but that once a week isn't going to be what crosses you across that finish line.” You know what I mean? It is the work you do in the other 23 hours of that day and the other seven days of the week. I think that is true. If you're doing and you're dabbling in treatment, but it's not the main priority, that is a big reason that can hold you back. I think it's hard because it's not fair that you have to make it priority number one, but it's so necessary that you do.  I really want to be compassionate and empathize with how unfair it is that you have to make this thing a priority when you see other people, again, making their social life their priority or their hobby their priority. It sucks. But this mindset shift, this recalibration of this has to be at the top. When it gets to being at the top, I do notice, as a clinician, that's when people really soar in their recovery. Chris: Yeah. We had a very honest conversation with my BDD therapist, my OCD therapist, and my psychiatrist, and they're like, “You need a higher level of care. We understand you can't afford it. There's also a lot of waiting lists.” They're like, “You're really going to have to put in the work in between sessions. You're supposed to be in therapy every day.” We just couldn't. All we can afford is once a week. They said, “Look, when you're not in our session, you need to be the one.”  So, for instance, with depression, my psychiatrist is like, “Okay, you're obviously taking the medication, but you need to get up at the same time every day. Open up all your blinds, go upstairs, eat breakfast on the balcony, get ready, leave the house from nine to five.” I didn't have a job. “But you need to be out of the house. You need to be in nature. You need to do all these things.” I never wanted to, but I did it. Or with my OCD and BDD recovery, I didn't want to go out in public. I felt like it looked horrendous. I felt like people were judging me, but I did. Instead of going to the grocery store at 2:00 in the morning, I was going at noon. When everyone's there for OCD, it was like, I didn't want to sit in public places. I didn't want to be around people that I felt I could potentially harm.  My point is like every single day, I was doing work, I was tracking it, I was keeping track, and I had to do that because I needed to do that in order to get better based on the setup that I had.  I do want to also say a caveat. I always have the biggest empathy for people or sympathy for people that are a CEO of a company or like a parent and have a lot of children, or it's like you're busy working all day and you're trying to balance stuff. I mean, the only good thing that came from being housebound is I didn't have a lot of responsibilities. I didn't have a family. I wasn't running a company. I wasn't working. So, I did have the free time to do the treatment. So, I have such sympathy for people that are parents or working at a company, or trying to start their own small business and trying to do treatment too. But I promise you, you don't have to put your recovery first forever. Really dive into it, get to that place where you're really, really stable. It'll still be a priority, but then you will be a better parent, a better employee, a better friend once you've really got your mental health to a level that you can start to support others. You may need to support yourself first, like the analogy with a mask on the plane. ROADBLOCK #5: YOU HAVE A FIXED MINDSET Kimberley: Agreed. That's such an important point. All right, we're moving on to roadblock number five. This is yours again, Chris. Tell us about the importance of specific mindsets, particularly a fixed mindset being the biggest roadblock. Chris: One of the things that makes me the most sad about people having a mental health condition because of how insidious they are is it starts to have people lose their sense of identity. It has them start to almost re-identify who they are, and it becomes a very fixed mindset. So, if you have social anxiety or social phobia, it's like, “Oh, I'm somebody that's not good around people. I say embarrassing things. I never know what kind of conversation to lead with. I should probably just not be around people.” Or, let's say generalized anxiety. “Deadlines really caused me too much strain. I can't really go back to school.” BDD. “I'm an unattractive person. Nobody wants to date me. I'm unlovable.”   We get into these fixed mindsets and we start to identify with them, and inevitably, that person's life becomes smaller and smaller and smaller. So, the more they identify with it, the more that they become isolated from others, and they have this very fixed mindset. I think of like OCD, for instance, isn't really about guidelines; it's all about rules. This is how things are supposed to be. What happens is when I work with a client specifically, somebody that's pretty severe, it's trying to get them to see the value in treatment and to even tap into their own personal values is really difficult. It's like, “Treatment doesn't work. I've tried all the medications. I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm just not somebody that can get better.” SOLUTION #5: GROWTH MINDSET What I tell clients instead is, “Let's be open. Let's be curious. Let's move into a growth mindset. Let's focus on learning, obtaining education, being open to new concepts. Look, when you were younger and the OCD didn't really attack you, or when you were younger and you didn't deal with social anxiety, you were having friends, you had birthday parties, you were going to school, and everything. Maybe that's the real you, and it's not that you lost it. You just have this disorder that's blocked you from it.” And so, when clients become open and curious and willing to learn, willing to try new things, and to get out of their comfort zone, that's where the growth really happens.  If you're listening to this podcast or watching it right now and you're determined like, “This isn't working; nothing can help me,” that fixed mindset is never something that's going to get you from where you are to where you want to be. You have to have that growth, that learning, that trying new things, expanding.  I always tell clients, “If you try something with your therapist and it doesn't work, awesome. That's one other thing that doesn't work. Move on to something else.” That openness. What I always love after treatment is people are like, “I am social. I do love to be around people. I am somebody who likes animals. I just was avoiding animals because of harm thoughts.” People start to get back into who they really are as soon as they start to be more open to recovery. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. The biggest fixed mindset thought that I hear is, “I can't handle it.” That thought alone gets in the way of recovery so many times. We go to do an exposure, “I can't handle this.” Or, “What if I have a panic attack? I cannot handle panic attacks.” It's so fixed. So I often agree with you. I will often say, this work, this mental health work, or this human work that we do is shifting the way we see ourselves and life as an experiment. We always have these black-and-white beliefs like “I can't handle this” or “I can't do this. I can't get in an elevator. I can't speak public speaking,” or whatever it might be. But let's be curious. Like you said, let's use it as an experiment. Let's try, and we'll see. Maybe it doesn't go great. That's okay, like you said, but then we know we have data, and then we have information on what got in the way, and we have some information.  I think that even just being able to identify when you're in a fixed mindset can be all you need just to be like, “Oh, okay, I'm having a very black-and-white fixed mindset.” Learning how to laugh and giggle at the way our brain just gets so determined and black-and-white, like you can't do this, as you said, I think is so important because, like you said, once you get to recovery, then you go on to live your life and actually do the things that you dream, the dream that you're talking about. It might be you want to get a master's degree or you might want to go for a job, or you want to go on a date. You're going to be able to use that strong mindset for any situation in life. It applies to anything that you're going to conquer.  I always say to clients, if you've done treatment for mental health, you are so much more prepared than every student in college because they haven't gone through, they haven't had to learn those skills. Chris: Yeah, no, exactly. I remember like my open mindset was one of the assets I had in recovery. I remember going to therapy and being like, “I'm just going to listen. These people clearly know what they're doing. They've helped people like me. Why would it be any different?” And I was open. I can see the difference with clients that have a more growth mindset. They come in, they're scared. They're worried. They've been doing something for 10, 15, 16 years, and they're like, “Why is this guy going to tell me to try to do different things or to think different or have different thinking patterns?” But they're open. I always see those people hit that finish line first. It's the clients that come and shut down. The family system has been supporting this like learned helplessness. Nobody really wants to rock the boat. Everything shut down and closed. It's like prying it open, as most of the work. And then we finally get to the work, but we could have gotten there quicker. Everybody's at their own pace, but I really hope that people hear this, though, are focused on that openness. You were talking about like people thinking they can't handle it. The other thing I hear sometimes is people just don't think they deserve it. “I just don't even deserve to get better.” You do. You do. That's what I love about my job the most. Everybody that comes into my office, and I'm like, “You deserve a better life than you're living. Whatever it is you want to do. You want to be a vet. How many animals are you going to save just by getting into being a vet? You got to do it.” My heart breaks a little bit when people have been dealing with mental health for long enough that they start to believe they don't even deserve to get better.  SOLUTION #6: IT'S A BEAUTIFUL DAY TO DO HARD THINGS Kimberley: I love that. So, we had five roadblocks, and we've covered it, but we promised six strategies. I want to be the one to deliver the last one, which everyone who listens already knows what I'm going to say, but I'm going to say it for the sake that it's so important for your recovery, which is, it's a beautiful day to do hard things. It is so important that you shift, as we talked about in the roadblock number one, you shift your mindset away from “I can't do hard things” to “It's okay to do hard things.” It doesn't mean you've failed. Life can be hard.  I say to all my patients, life is 50/50 for everybody. It's 50% easy and 50% hard. I think some people have it harder than others. But the ones who seem to do really well and have that grit and that survivor's mindset are the ones who aren't destroyed by the day when it is hard. They're willing to do the hard thing. They're okay to march into uncertainty. They're willing to do the hard thing for the payoff. They're willing to take a short-term discomfort for the long-term relief or the long-term payout. I think that mindset can change the game for people, particularly if you think of it like a marathon. Like, I just have to be able to finish this marathon, I'm going to do the hard thing, and think of it that way. There'll be hills, there'll be valleys, there'll be times where you want to give up, but can I just do one hard thing and then the next hard thing, and then the next hard thing? Do you have any thoughts on that? Chris: I'm glad that this is the message that you put out there. I'd say, obviously, when I think of Kim Quinlan as a friend, I think of other things and all the fun we've had together. But as a colleague, I always think of both. Obviously, self-compassion. But this idea of it's a beautiful day to do hard things, I like it because we've always talked about doing hard things as this negative thing before you came along, and by adding this idea of it's a beautiful day. When I look at all the hard things I did in my own recovery, or I see clients do hard things, there's this feeling of accomplishment, there's this feeling of growth, there's this feeling of greatness that we get. Just like you were saying, beyond the mental health conditions that I dealt with, when I start getting into real life after the mental health conditions now are more in recovery, every time I choose to do hard things, there's always such a good payoff. I was convinced I would never be able to get through school and get a degree and become a licensed therapist because I struggled with school with my perfectionism. It was difficult for me to get back in there and to humble myself and say, “Hey, you may flop and fail.” But now I'm a licensed therapist because of that willingness to do hard things.  I could give a plethora of examples, but I want people to hear that doing hard things is your way of saying, “I believe in myself. I trust myself that I can accomplish things, and I'm going to tap into my support system if I need to, but I am determined, determined, determined to push myself to a level that I may not think I can.” I love when clients do that, and they always come in, they're like, “I'm so proud of myself, I can't wait to tell you what I did this weekend.” I love that. So, always remember hard things come with beautiful, beautiful, beautiful outcomes and accomplishments. Kimberley: Yeah. I think the empowerment piece, when clients do scary, hard things, or they feel their hard feelings, or they do an exposure, they'll often come in and be like, “I felt like I could do anything. I had no idea about the empowerment that comes from doing hard things.” I think we've been trained to think that if we just avoid it, we then will feel confident and strong, but it's actually the opposite. The most empowered you'll ever feel is right after you've done a really, really hard thing, even if it doesn't go perfectly. Chris: Yeah, and so much learning comes out of it. That's why I always tell clients too, going back to one of our first roadblocks, beating yourself up prevents the learning. Let's say you try something and it doesn't go well. I was talking to a colleague of ours who I really, really like. She was telling me how her first treatment center failed. Now she's doing really well for herself down in San Diego. She's like, “I just didn't know things, and I just did things wrong, and I learned from it, and now I'm doing well.”  It's like, whenever we look at something not going the way we'd like as an opportunity to learn and collect data, it just makes us that much better when we try it the other time. A lot of times these anxiety disorders were originally before treatment, hopefully trying to find ways to avoid our way through life—tough words—and trying to figure out, like, how can I always be small and avoid and still get to where I want to be? When people hear this from your podcast—it's a beautiful day to do hard things—I hope that they recognize that you don't have to live an avoidant lifestyle, an isolated lifestyle anymore. Really challenging yourself and doing hard things is actually going to be so rewarding. It's incredible what outcomes come with it. Kimberley: Amazing. Well, Chris, thank you so much for doing this with me again. We finally stamped it into the podcast, which makes me so happy. Tell us where people can hear about you, get in contact with you, and learn more about what you do. Chris: I am really active in the International OCD Foundation. I'm one of their board members. I also am one of their lead advocates, just meeting as somebody with the disorder. I speak on it. Then I lead some of their special interest groups. The Body Dysmorphic Disorder Special Interest Group is one of them, but I lead about four of them. One of their affiliates, OCD Southern California, I am Vice President of OCD SoCal and a board member. We do a lot of events here locally that Kim is part of, but also some virtual events that you could be a part of. And then, as a clinician, I'm a licensed clinician in Costa Mesa, California. I currently work at The Gateway Institute. You can find me either by email at my name, which is never easy to spell. So, ChrisTrondsen@GatewayOCD.com, or the best thing is on social media, whether it's Instagram, Facebook, or X, I guess we're calling it now. Just @christrondsen. You could DM me. I always like to hear from people and get people's support, and anything I can do to support people. I always love it. Kimberley: Oh my gosh, you're such a light in the community, truly. A light of hope and a light of wisdom and knowledge. I want to say, because I don't tell you this enough as your friend and as your colleague, thank you, thank you for the hope that you put out there and the information you put out there. It is so incredibly helpful for people. So, thank you. Chris: I appreciate that. I forgot to say one thing real quick. Every first, third, and fourth Wednesday of the month at 9 a.m. Pacific Standard Time on the IOCDF, all of their platforms, including iocdf.org/live, I do a free live stream with Dr. Liz McIngvale from Texas, and we have great guests like Kim Quinlan on, so please listen. But thank you for saying that. I always try to put as much of myself in the community, and you never know if people are receiving it well. I want to throw the same thing to you. I mean, this podcast has been incredible for so many. I always play some of this stuff for my clients. A lot of clients are looking for podcasts. So, thanks for all that you do. I'm really excited about this episode because I think it's something that we touch so many people. So, now to share it on a bigger scale, I'm excited about it. But thank you for your kind words. You're amazing. It's all mutual. Kimberley: Thank you. You're welcome back anytime. Chris: And we're going to get Greek food soon. It's funny [inaudible] I'm telling you. It's life-changing. Thanks, Kim. Listen to other episodes. Kimberley: Thank you.

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, join me as I welcome Corey Harlock of Key Hire Solutions to discuss his transformational journey transitioning from hospitality management to revolutionizing small business recruitment strategies. We explore Corey's grassroots experience and how reflecting on skills and networking empowered changes benefiting businesses, employees, and communities. From precision management to respectful rejection, Corey shares recruitment nuances and emphasizes reputation's role in success over time. As remote options demand adaptation, Corey relates relatable career anecdotes and perspective-shaping reads. His insights illuminate relationship-building, timing, and vision for seizing opportunities in fluctuating job markets. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Corey discusses his transition from the hospitality industry to recruitment, highlighting the impact of hiring on small business owners' lives and the broader community. We explore the importance of reflecting on skills and the value of networking in Corey's journey to founding Key Hire Solutions. I emphasize the significance of managing the entire recruitment process to improve hiring success rates for small businesses. Corey explains the importance of treating candidates with respect throughout the recruitment process, including providing clear communication in cases of rejection. We examine the current job market trends, including the scarcity of candidates and the rise of remote and hybrid work arrangements. Corey advises on the critical nature of timely decision-making in the hiring process to secure top talent. We discuss how to hire for future growth, highlighting the need to find candidates who can scale with the company and align with its values and culture. Corey shares personal anecdotes about his early career, his move to Texas, and his reading preferences, such as "The Energy Bus." I recount the importance of meaningful connections in business and how books like "Barbarians at the Gate" await on Corey's reading list for inspiration. Corey offers advice to business owners on upgrading their hiring standards to attract professionals with the capacity to significantly grow their business. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Keyhire.solutions GUESTS Corey HarlockAbout Corey TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In today's episode you will meet Corey Harlock, founder of Key Hire Solutions. Corey's goal at Key Hire is to improve the lives of business owners by improving the talent they hire, so they can focus on what is important to them. Corey, I want to thank you for taking time to join me here on Building Texas Business. Corey: Oh, great to be here. Yeah, good, good. Chris: So you're the founder of Key Hire Solutions. Tell us a little bit about what Key Hire is and what it's known for. Corey: Key Hire is. It's a business solution for small business owners. So we really target those small business owners five to twenty five million dollars and the reason we kind of the goal and mission of Key Hire is to make the lives of the business owners better by improving the talent and the capacity and the experience inside their business so they have time to focus on the things they want to focus on Whether that's getting a better night's sleep, spending more time with their family, going out and getting more sales, improving their business. And we can improve the lives of the business owners. They can be more focused and more happy at their business. It in turn improves the lives of their people in their business who then can go out and be more successful in their personal and professional lives and in turn that reflects on the community. So we really do see a holistic hesitate to use the word global because it's really community focus. But if we can do right by the business owner, they can do right by their people who can then go out and do right by their community and their families and their surroundings. Chris: It kind of builds each segment, kind of builds on the other right, correct. And when you tell a story that way, it emphasizes how connected it all is. Corey: Has to be yeah. Chris: So how did you get started with this, or what was a little bit about your background led you through your journey to get to Key High? Corey: Sure, yeah, I'm a recovering hospitality guy. I worked in restaurants for years and years. I did high-end, fine dining in boutique hotels out in Banff, alberta, canada, in the Rocky Mountains for years and years. That's where I met my wife and one day I came to the conclusion I was. I didn't want to be in that game anymore, and so I went through this kind of reflection process and said what skills do I have? And I kind of came out with three areas, three things I thought I could, that would could transition from the hospitality world into other worlds, and one of them was marketing, one of them was sales and one of them was recruiting. And at that time I was working six days a week and I had one day off a week and I made a promise to myself I would have coffee with anyone on that one day off a week and for about three, three months I just had coffee with. You know, you send out a help notice to your network, right? I'm looking at making a change. Here's what I think I can do. Does anyone know anyone I should talk to? And people get back to you. So I started having coffee and I ended up with this guy named Bob Scott who was a partner in a company called Questus recruitment in Calgary, alberta, and told him about my hospitality experience and in hospitality, a large part of what you do because of high turnover you do a lot of hiring. So I thought I was pretty good I thought I was good at it and he told me about how they had this great hospitality program at recruitment. He then also went on to tell me that none of us know anything about hospitality. So they hired me to build at this hospitality program and so that was my foray into recruiting and that was agency recruiting and I was with them for a number of years and it progressed that the main owner was a guy named Morgan Art and so eventually I created a company within a company called Questus hospitality recruitment and then Morgan and I partnered in that and then I bought him out, went out on my own and changed the name of the company of the hospitality recruitment network and did that for a couple years and then we got transferred to Houston. So I closed the doors and came down here. But I never liked the agency model. I mean it works for some people, but for me it just didn't, because it was so transactional and oftentimes you would work with business owners or corporations and you could see the problem they had or the disconnects or how they could be better. But as a transactional agency recruiter they just find you people right and don't bore me with that, just give me some. Chris: Yeah, I don't want to be better. Corey: I just need people. So you know, oftentimes you're putting people into a situation where you kind of didn't know how it was gonna work out and there's a lot of big failure rate in that type of recruiting and key hire. I wanted to create it to work with those little guys on a long way around. But I wanted to create it to work with the small business owners to really help them and impact them and work side by side with them and allow them to leverage that experience and improve their experience and their business and then their lives of their people and their lives of the community people in the community yeah. Chris: So I mean, I think one of the things that employers maybe don't realize on the front end, but certainly at some point come to realize how expensive recruiting can be for your business, from not just dollars out the pocket for a recruiting fee but you spend time away from your business doing the recruiting, sure, you have the onboarding, you have all these things until someone can be highly productive and, quite frankly, from the the hiring side, you know the transactional agency model. Sometimes you don't think they really care, like said, they just want to place them once they get a fee. Corey: So there's this bad taste about even having to engage in the process and I think where I never aligned with that is when my motivation is to get paid and your motivation as a business owner is to make your business better. Those don't line up in the big picture right. There's a big disconnect in there and what do you do then, I guess? Chris: or what have you done? Key hire to you know. Bring that right in the line yeah, that and that's the question. Corey: So when I built the business, the three kind of core values I wanted to that I thought were important were the value of the time of the small business owner, because, exactly what you said, I don't think anyone starts a small business or starts a business because they love to hire people. They have a passion and something they love to do and part of growing a business is hiring right. Chris:Well, I can promise you everyone that's come on this podcast, as a business owner has said, how important it is to have good people, and right means hiring good people, not missing. So, to your point, though, they think about the passion, the idea that's the core to the business, but they all acknowledge down the road that hiring good people is the key to success yeah, and so I agree with that. Corey: And you golf, I do so. I haven't golfed in a while, but I used to golf quite a bit. I was never very good and I've probably hit tens of thousands of golf balls. Could I be an instructor, golf instructor? no, because I probably hit 10,000 golf balls wrong yeah right, and just because we hire every day doesn't mean we are experts at hiring. It means we've hired because we've had to and so we wanted to honor people's time. We wanted to impact their business through kind of experience and talent. But we also wanted to create a pricing model that was fair and equitable for both sides. And that was the biggest key for me was, you know, not having huge fees, not have a business owner feel like man, I paid up a lot or I've invested a lot in trying to get someone and the results were me yeah so we, the model of key hire is, you know, we get paid for the work we do, but we guarantee the hire and the work we do is a lot more exhaustive than what a traditional agency might do. And so, if I break down those three criteria, on average our clients pay less than 15% per hire, if you wanted to compare it to the agency model. Right, sometimes they're less than 10% and I think that's great because I want them to get value and we show up as a fixed cost on the P&L. There's no surprises, there's no gotchas, it is what it is. You can budget for what we do and we have monthly fees that are very affordable for the business. But the second piece of that is, you know, making sure that we're valuing their time. We dive into the business and we spend, you know, 8, 10, 12 hours inside a business before we do anything. We want to create an action plan for that business owner. You know we're an in-sourced solution, so we become their fractional department of talent. So we want to make sure we understand the business almost as well as they do before we go to work for them, so we can tell their story in the marketplace, right? Chris: Correct and be looking for the right fit from a cultural standpoint, mindset standpoint for that company right. Corey: Exactly. And then the you just touched on something really important, right? There's the kind of three things we want to break down. We want to break down the experience they need in their business. We want to break down the culture fit, because that is super important. If you have a small business, if you have 20 employees and we're bringing someone in, that's 5% of your culture. And if that's not aligned or we always like to say, if we're going to put someone on your bus, we want to put them at the front so all the people behind you are saying, wow, that's a really great, they're really good at what they do and they're a really good fit. I need to raise my game right. Rising tide raises all boats, so we want to make sure we're doing that. The third and most important and overlooked element is capacity. So many people hire for their current needs because they're in this kind of fire drill. I just need someone and they look good enough, right, reactionary, correct. So we want to get in there and build capacity in the business. One of our favorite phrases is we're not hiring someone to run your $10 million business. We're hiring someone to run your $50 million business, currently doing 10. So we want someone who can bring the experience and the capacity to build process and procedure and has leadership capabilities to scale. Chris: Well, I, you know, full disclosure for everyone out there. I can speak from experience. Have them work with you now for the better part of 2023. It's a totally different experience, in a good way and dealing with the hiring and recruiting and acquisition of talent, Love the investments you made in learning our firm and our business, and how can't imagine how much time I didn't see you put in behind the scenes to make sure you were bringing us the right candidates and cutting out the first two rounds of interviews, just to you know. It is a huge time savings, you know, for us. Corey: Yeah, well, I think we put two people in here, and, if my memory serves me, you guys have conducted a total of four interviews to hire those two people. Chris: Yeah. Corey: And I bet you the total man hours on that would be two, four, probably in the neighborhood of 12 total man hours to make those two hires from Boyer Miller. Yeah, I would say max. Chris: Yeah, so it does seem like. Well, obviously there's a model that I think has value you know talk about. Maybe. I guess you know what led you to that. Because in my mind, what you're doing in the hiring process is innovative. I don't know anyone else that really does this. What? Corey: was it. Chris: I guess, based on your experience, that kind of led you to this. What feedback did you get? You know, would you draw upon? Corey: The agency model is kind of go out, hunt, kill, throw it over the fence and then turn it over to a company who may or may not have a really effective interview hiring process. So, selfishly, I thought if I can control everything from beginning to end and understand the needs of the business and the needs of the candidate and manage those expectations, you would have a bit of better success rate and you can learn from what's happening. You know, a lot of times we'll go through the process with someone, like we did with you for the first role, and we didn't get it right the first time. But because I was there and managing the process and a part of it, I could hear the feedback, I could learn about your company more so that I could be better at going into the market, telling your story and identifying who's right for your business. So I think what's different is if we're going to work with you, it's required that we manage the whole process. We will never when people say well, look, you just bring us the people and we'll take it from there. That's a hard no for me, because for me to do all that work you know you talked about stuff behind the scenes For us to do the 10, 12, 15 hours of work behind the scenes before you give us an hour of your time. It doesn't make sense, right To just say here, I've done all this work, here's what it is Now, give it to you and then be blind about why didn't it work? Why was it a fit? Why was it a fit? Chris: Right. I guess it prevents you from learning and adapting and getting to that success point, because you said you earlier, you guaranteed the hire. Corey: Yeah, and I can't guarantee someone I was an involved with from the beginning to the end. And the other thing is we keep people on time. Yeah, because timing is a big issue in terms of getting people on board in this marketplace. So if we're driving that process and kind of, you know, tapping our clients saying, hey, I need to hear from you, we need to get this done, and they expect that right, if that wasn't part of the agreement and I'm just this pushy guy who don't worry about it, you've done your part, we'll let us handle the rest, it doesn't make sense. So we just want to control the process, because this is all key hire dots. We just do talent strategy acquisition and develop processes for hiring. This is what we're expert in. So in our process, the data says the process works pretty good. Right, we have a 90% success rate in terms of putting people into companies and getting them to their six months and beyond. We have some people that have been working. I have a client the second client I ever signed seven years ago, the person I put in one of the first people I ever put in a business as operations manager, is now the VP of operations seven years later and the owner is still aesthetic with that person. Chris: That's awesome, so it brings up a good point. You clearly have built your business off of key relationships, partnerships with companies and others. What's some advice you can give to other business hours out there about how to go about building those relationships so that they're sustainable and help kind of grow your business from them? Corey: And when you say relationships, you're meaning just within their own markets. Chris: We're both, I think, within your own market and maybe beyond. You've done that to kind of grow your business off of relationships, so what? Are some of the things that you would say you found to be successful in helping you do that. Corey: Well doing. Whatever your product or service is, you have to deliver it well. Right, and I think that's the goal of every business that gets set up. But I think one of the more overlooked things is reputation is one of your biggest recruiting tools. Your reputation in the market, your reputation amongst your peers, reputation cross market who other people might interact with you but the big one is the reputation you have with people who have applied to your company and whether they were hired, interviewed or not. And let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. We don't post jobs, but I know a lot of business owners do, and that's kind of what you have to do as a business owner to try to attract people. So you post a job and 50 people apply to that job and 49 of them don't hear anything ever from you in return for that application. Those 49 people are three or four times more likely to never reapply to your company, even if you get successful and become a big company, they have a bad taste in their mouth and they will not apply to your company and they will tell people I mean, I applied to those guys and they never even come back to me. That's reputation in a really important market, the candidate market. Now, if you were to create a template that just said hey, thank you for your application, your experience looks really good. Unfortunately, I don't think it aligns with the job we have right now and I wouldn't want to put you in a situation where you weren't going to be successful. But I would love to keep your information here on file and reach out. If something more suitable does come open in our company, all the best. What's that person going to say now? Chris: You're definitely going to feel like you cared enough to reach back out. Corey: And you'll be one of the one in a hundred that took the time to reach back out. I can tell you this I've interviewed people and I believe in the good, the bad and the ugly. So throughout the interview process I might come to the conclusion they're not the right fit, and I'll have a conversation with them at the conclusion of our conversation and say here's where I land on this. I don't think this one's a fit, and here's why. You're obviously very good at what you do and I get that, but what we're looking for is really specific and I don't doubt you could figure it out. My challenge is we don't have time for you to figure it out and I would not want you to start a new role where the expectations are super high and you're disappointed and we're disappointed. I don't want to do that too. And man, I bet you 99% of people say you know, corey, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for being honest with me. Then some of them and I might say 10% or less will follow up with this. I get it. I'm not right for me, but I have someone you should talk to. I've just told them they're not getting the job, but because I took the time to be honest and respectful and clear about why they say you sound like a good guy. Let me help you. Chris: That's amazing yeah. I can see how that would be right. So let's, talk a little bit about just what you're seeing out there in the job market. I mean, you know. Corey: I was talking a minute ago, you know, here we are, and you know, kind of starting a new year. Chris: What are some of the things you think employers should be looking for? And then maybe the other as a candidate, you know what kind of things. What should the expectations be Right, because I think a lot has changed even in the last 12 months about you know those two topics. Corey: Sure, a couple of things. The unemployment claims are going up slowly and they've been talking. I think we're supposed to be going into recession what for about 18, 24 months now. So if it's going to happen or not, it's still unknown. It feels like we're dipping a bit, but what's important to remember is, even in our current market, which feels a little softer than it was, there are still fewer people available than there are jobs open. And I think that number sits around like 0.7, 0.8 people per open job, really Okay. So we're going to be the thick of it and now that the people coming up in the system, there are fewer of them, right, Like we're past the baby boomers and there are just fewer people and there are more open jobs. So even if we get into a bit of a recession, there's never going to be that well, there's going to be so many people apply for this role that we'll just pick right. We are, for now, an imperfectity in a situation where it's a candidate driven market and they can be choosy. So that's something worth knowing. Chris: And just to kind of tag on that, I would have to believe that some of the flexibility and work remote has contributed to that as well. Correct? Corey: Yeah, so I'll touch on that in just a second. So we understand we have fewer people that are going to apply or we're going to be competing for people. If you're excited, I always tell my clients if we're excited about someone, I can promise you someone else's too, because they didn't just apply here. But that's one of the advantages using like a key hire, because we kind of go out and get people, even if they're not looking, and we can kind of get in the rear and have a conversation and engage with them. Chris: That makes sense. I mean it's a competitive. Corey: But if someone has decided to make a move, they're not just talking to you, and if they're good, more companies than yours will be excited about them. So speed matters right. It's the, I think, the stat is. Most candidates, when they start looking for or interviewing for jobs, are off the market in two weeks. So you have 10 business days to get it done. Chris: That's not a lot of time. Corey: But it can be done, right, when we do. That's part of the process that we have, because that's one of those key elements and landing that, those people you want. So then you touched on so we have fewer people and now we have these classifications of schedule that didn't exist what three years ago? Right, we have remote, we have hybrid and we have in-office schedules. Now, they always existed, but they were never prominent and they're the remote. People were told they weren't able. We can't afford to have you working at home, we're not set up for that. Then overnight was like hey, go work at home, we were set up for that. So, people, you we hear this right like, well, I've always wanted to do this and I was told I couldn't. And now the big companies are calling people back, they're starting to. So there's a movement back to the office. But there's also a movement amongst individuals and people out there saying, well, I don't need to go back to the office because I know there are other jobs out there that will let me work in the office, and so this is a conversation we have with our clients a lot. I think I had this with you guys. Chris: Thanks. Corey: It was about the. So if we have an in-office role, we need to target people that are, if argument's safe, in a 10 10 mile diameter from our office for make the commute, have the commute make sense. Now, if there are a hundred people in that diameter or radius or a diameter, right, that's the whole. So there are 100 people that can do our job in that diameter 10 10 mile diameter. There's only about 20 of them, 20% that are willing to come to the office. So we've taken our candidate pool and chiseled it at down to 20 out of 100. Now we have to have those 20 people. We have to a find them, be, make sure they have the skills we need and See, make sure they're even open to a new role. Right, 10 of those people are probably gonna say, no, I'm not even interested. Right now we're down to 10 people. If we move to a hybrid and I think I need to practice by saying there are two types of roles there's flexible and inflexible roles. So if I'm at a machine Turning a metal part, I can't do that remotely. That's not a flexible role, sure. But if I am in in accounting or an administrative function or sales, those are flexible and we can allow people to have that flexibility. So if we move to a hybrid role, we can expand that diameter a little bit, say to 20 miles, because if people only have to come to the office Two or three times a week, they might drive a little longer. But we also might increase our talent pool by 3x. Now we maybe have 300 people and we have 80% of 300 to draw from, because there's 20% of those are like I only want remote. But the people that are in office and the people that want hybrid will look at increases. Yeah, right, the interest correct. So now we're at 80% of 300. We're at 240 people versus the 20. Now if we go remote within the city say look at, I want someone remote, but I need them here in Houston because I want to bring him into the office once a month or twice a month to do whatever. Now we have, you know, 10x. Now we have a thousand people and the people that like being in the office won't be interested. So we have 80% of a thousand people. Yeah, so it's just a. For me it's working, the probabilities of it and whatever you choose to do is fine, man, I think what I'm hearing a lot about hybrid is. People are saying things to me like this a lot more. I'm happy to go in the office, but I want the flexibility if I have a doctor's appointment, just to work from home that day, so I can go to the doctor and come back and I don't have to drive all the way in the office and all the way back. So people are looking for Hybrid is starting to take on a bit of a different. If I could get a like one day or two days from home, or have the option like, if I have stuff going on, if my son has an early game on Thursday, if I could just work from home that day so I can just like get my work done, not be stuck in traffic, and then go see my child's game or performance or whatever. Chris: Up to 30 minutes for game time instead of hour and a half. Corey: Right, because they can you. So I think Hybrid, the definition of hybrid, is shifting and changing a bit. I am hearing more people saying yeah, man, I just want to. I'd really like to be back in an office. I like being around people. This remote thing just doesn't work for me. It's not going to go back to the way it was, but I think it's going to normalize here a bit. Chris: So let me ask you this from a company standpoint. I think from what I've experienced talking to friends, you know, read it in Wall Street Journal or whatever the companies are saying. Look at this, the fully remote Maybe or hybrid, that bias towards remote is a roadie. Our company culture because our people aren't too bad, there is much. What are you hearing from employees and the candidates about their view of Building culture or fostering culture and the need to either be any office some versus Really think it can be done fully remote. What's the kind of the censure getting in the candidate pool on that topic? Corey: I think it's easier to do in a smaller company. You know, I have a client now. They're 20 people, but every morning they have. They're all remote, but every morning they have a video call and they talk about who's working on one and what, who needs to interact with who and so. So they do it that way. In a larger company, I see it being harder. Chris: Yeah, it's just yeah, and there's just. Corey: There's more moving pieces and more departments and more people that have to get connected. And trying to get 500 people on a video call every morning would be hard, sure, but I do think and it might boil down to the person, chris, you know, some people are at home and they just do what they do and those I always say these employees, the people that just want to go work in a in their office and close their door and say, yeah, please don't bother me, I don't want to talk to anyone. They're super valuable people. If you have them in the right role and if they're working remotely, that might be just fine. But then there are some more Dynamic roles in the company where you do need that interaction and I think that's where that hybrid piece is Important to say, hey, we do need you in the office and I know your company culture here is really built around human interaction and keeping people close together. And, yeah, it's important to be able to walk down the hall and knock on someone's door. So I think that's where the hybrid model if you can pull someone in instead of a fully remote to a hybrid and kind of transition them there, you're gonna get that kind of dynamic Interaction and you're gonna foster culture more and people get to know each other and kind of on a personal level as well as a professional level. But it's, I don't know that there's a One answer, because every company needs to figure out Every company's per. I always say every role is perfect for someone. We just need to be honest and really define what that role is and what the company is and what the culture is, and then find the Person who's looking and craving that Right, and so I think a lot of what a lot of people will do is Find people and tell them what they want to hear and then when they get in the door they kind of think well, maybe I don't know if they told me the truth here. Yeah and then they start that relationship off a little bumpy. But if you're clear, like you guys are, about what you are and who you are and how you, you see the people interacting. People are either gonna love that or they're not. But that's all you want, right? The bet getting a hell yeah or a hell no, that's, that's a gift. There's value in both, right. I mean hell knows as valuable as a hell yeah, because you're not gonna waste any more time if you put it up front, say this is who we are and what we do, and if that excites you, let's talk more. If that doesn't sound exciting to you, probably not, for you. Chris: There's another place. It's right for you. Corey: Yeah, for sure there is. That's what I told you all the time. That make you bad person. Chris: There's just no different places they're gonna fit yeah that's exactly it. Corey: I think we do get a little people get a little hurt or whatever when they get rejected by someone, but sometimes that's Best thing that could to get happen. Chris: Yeah, any. You just thinking about the business owner out there, make you know, with the pressure of making some hires or filling some roles, trends, that you're seeing any pointers you might add you know, provide, say you know if you're gonna, if you find yourself in the need, you know hiring. Here's some things to focus on to make sure you get it right. Corey: Yeah, so what? The business owners I deal with? And I love working with business owners as they're always passionate, smart, driven people and they're all different personalities and I love speaking with them and learning from them. That's kind of that the secret behind why I started key hire to? Because Hang out with business owners is a really Awesome experience, just to hear how they think and what they do and why they do it. I love hearing the stories and I love be able to take those stories out and tell people about them, the if I could give them a piece of advice and I'm speaking to small business owners here right. But so we're always looking to bring people in with capacity. So don't hire for current needs. Hire for what you need five years from now. That's number one, right? Remember the phrase we're not hiring you to run our business currently. We're looking for you to run our business 5x Currently doing with our current revenues. So if you do that, you'll redefine what good looks like. And I have a client in Birmingham. His name is Edgar and he runs one of the coolest food manufacturing businesses in Birmingham. I worked with him four years ago and he wanted he had a role within his business that he thought he needed and after we did our diligence and spending time, I flew it to Birmingham, spent two days with them. I said I think you're too small on this. You know, we got a dream bigger and so we redefined the role. We found an amazing guy and put him in there and Edgar loves him and he's now his director of operations. Right, he wanted him to do this kind of smaller role, but I said no, we need to hire someone with the capacity to take over your whole operation. So I'm working with Edgar again, but I asked them this question. I said when we talked four years ago, you thought you had a really great team and then we put this new person in there, a professional, someone who had more experience than you needed today and was a true professional at what they do. Did that change your definition of what a good employee looks like? And he didn't even hesitate. He said absolutely, and I could see it in them. The way he viewed his hiring was different. The people he had hired since we worked together were Different. They were. They were just bigger, better, more capacity. They had that level of professionalism. And I guess what I want to stress is you have to grow your business a certain way, right. You hire your friends, your relatives, your neighbors your relatives are your neighbors and you hire a team that you hope can get it done. And if you're successful here's the paradox if you're successful, your business will outgrow the ability of all the people how who helped you get where you want to go. That sucks, because now you want to grow and all the people that helped you get to this level of success Don't have the jam, they don't have the capacity, they don't have the experience, the draw upon To help you get to the next level. And it's a horrible position for a business owner to be in it. And I've said to them all. I said the hardest. I don't care how long you've had your business and what you've gone through. The hardest decision you will ever have to make is looking across the table from someone who helped you get where you are today and telling them Thank you for everything you've done, but I don't think you can get me where I want to go from here. Chris: Yeah, it's. I've seen it happen time and time again Company out grows their capacity. Corey: Yeah, they just, and they're not. They're great people doing the best job they can. They just don't have. You know, the busiest business They've ever worked in is your business today. The business business they will ever work in is your business tomorrow, and they don't have anything beyond that to say, oh, this process is broken, or here's where our constraints are, or here's what we need to change. When your only input becomes ours, you've run into that wall where you think, okay, we need to upgrade process procedure, we need to include automation if people don't understand how to do. That's kind of your real limiting factor, that's your biggest constraint. So if I were to give business owners advice, it's that right, understand what 2.0 looks like in terms of your talent and capacity and experience. And I never advocate for like abandoning those people who got you where you are. You have to treat them well, but there will become a point where they could turn into a constraint to your growth and I've had lots and lots. I mean that's the other part of what we do, right, we sit with business owners and we walk them through these, like how to have these conversations with someone, and we can help them leave the company gracefully. We can reposition them within the company. There's lots of things we can do, but we always want to make sure we're treating them with respect, because they've probably given you blood, sweat and tears to get where you are and you just don't want to. I don't think I've ever come across a business owner who's like yeah, I just need to get them out of here. They're like it tears them up. It's a hard decision to make. Chris: Yeah, no, I can see that. That is great advice, though, for anyone that's out there running a business about to start one that you got to you know. There's another analogy and you're a hockey guy, I'm not, but I've told us before it's kind of the same to business. Is you look to where the keep your eyes on, where the pucks going not? Corey: where it is right. Chris: That's it, yeah, so they're always looking forward and what do you need to be doing to drive forward? And talent, your talent's the key to that. Corey: Well, I don't know how much time we have, but I can give you a kind of a quick walk through in terms of the kind of growth through a business that we've identified. Let's do that and then we'll wrap it up. Okay, so we've identified kind of five stages of growth through a business owner, and so the first one we've identified is what we call the paralyzed business owner. Right, it's a fire drill. They need instant relief. If you use a car analogy, the wheels have fallen off the machine. Right they're. If you look at their org chart, they're sitting in five, six, seven different seats because everyone's trying to do everything and they're at this. My only input is time, right. And so their mindset is I just need help. And they often think if I can just hire the right person, my life will be better. But obviously that's not how it works. But if you can hire the right person, you can take a little pressure out of the tire. Right, give them back a little time. You know, maybe they can have one dinner at home with the family versus zero, and then from there, from this kind of paralyzed state, they move. Then they move into the unsure state. So you put a really good professional person in the business, whether it's operations or in the administration or in the sales department, and they go oh, that's what good looks like, this person's really helping me. So they transition into this unsure and they start thinking, well, what else could I do? I know I have other problems in the business, but I don't know what they are right. So we call this the wobbly wheel. Now the car is kind of it's. They're on the road but they're wobbling down the road right. And so they know they have some constraints in their business, but they're not at the point yet where they can put their finger on and say that's a problem. So then you put kind of another professional in there to kind of take a little more pressure out of their tire, and they go oh, now they have a little more time to focus on important things. They have some professionals, some transformational talent in key places. So now they transition and this is a big transition where they go into the curious owner where else can I make upgrades in my business? And this is where they start looking. Now they can say I think this leader is a problem. You know, I've expected. I've asked them to, told them here are some deliverables. I need them done by this timeline. They're missing them. I think that is a problem there. So they're starting to now understand where the problems are. And this is where we say you know, you have a flat tire right. You just need to put some air in that tire and you can get back up on the road. And then they transition into a growing company. So now we're kind of putting professional, transformational talent in key roles and now they're at the point where they move to a growing company where you know, before they were paralyzed, then they were kind of walking, and now they're kind of in a growing like. They're moving forward, they're confident in their team. And growing company is now we're adding new talent. I need new layers, new levels, new roles we never thought about. So we're creating a lot of new roles and we're really kind of bolstering the company with the talent and the capacity and experience they need to continue growth. And then the final transition is they become strategic. That's just like we know exactly what we need, just start filling in the spots and let's roll right. So that's kind of the progression we take our people through and that how we identify where people are and that kind of okay. Chris: Yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's a great, almost visual, as you, you know, describe it and walk through it right. Corey: And so if you do the wheels right, so the curious person has the flat tire, so you go from wheels off the machine to a wobbly wheel to a maybe a flat tire. And then the growing guys like we just upgraded the wheels, gave them low profile, new rims, the whole deal right. And then it's strategic, is like we're adding wheels on the car, on the machine, because it's just flying down the road. Chris: Awesome, yeah well, court, thank you for coming on and sharing this. Let's let's talk a little bit on the personal side, sure? What was your first job? My? Corey: first job was a dishwasher at a restaurant called Casey's Roadhouse in Oshawa, ontario all right. Yeah, I started literally in hospitality that was probably why I stayed with it, because when I was 14 I was washing dishes. The unintended consequences of that job is I met two guys that I went to school with. That I didn't really know very well actually, I didn't go to school with them at that time. I was, I think I was, maybe I did. I didn't know them very well, but you know, fast forward 40 years later and one of them still a good friend of mine and I was able to hang it with them last summer and so made some lasting friendships out of that very. I mean, it was a horrible job, right the right of all the service coming in, all the cool people like you're 14 and there's all these 18, 19, 20, 21 year old cool kids coming in, throwing slop at you and yelling at you and making your life miserable. But yeah, built character. Chris: I guess yeah, okay, so you know from Canada, newer to Texas, but do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Oh man, that's tough okay, tex-mex yeah any books you read you or read recently you recommend. Corey: I just listened to the energy bus that was recommended by Bart Pitcock in my Vistage group. Okay, it's kind of a fable that's along the lines of the home man who sold his Ferrari oh, mongu sold his Ferrari by Robin Sharma. It's just kind of this fable about kind of changing your mindset, which is cool, and I have barbarians at the gate sitting on my desk right now, which I'm about to get into. Chris: Okay, a little holiday reading well again, corey, I really appreciate your time. I think what you're doing at Keiher is great. I certainly appreciate the relationship and the friendship yeah, I mean thanks for having me on. Corey: I think you guys are doing a great job too. I love this company and can't say enough nice things about the way you run your business. You guys are clear on what you do, you're in a great organization and I'm super happy to be helping you. Oh, thank you. We appreciate it. Take care, thank you.

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, I speak with Curtis Hite, founder and CEO of Improving. Curtis shares his entrepreneurial journey, from starting at Raytheon to selling his first business and experiencing betrayal, fueling his passion for conscious capitalism. We talk about how Improving has consistently grown during economic downturns by prioritizing employees and culture. Curtis provides valuable insights into his leadership strategies, innovative programs for maintaining connections, and stakeholder models for partnerships. Whether you're an entrepreneur, business leader or interested in leadership, you'll gain inspiring insights on building a resilient company through conscious capitalism. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Curtis Hite, founder and CEO of Improving, shares his entrepreneurial journey from feeling betrayed and undervalued at his previous jobs to founding a successful business that values its employees. We discuss the importance of maintaining a people-centric focus and sharing strategies for leading a successful company. The concept of conscious capitalism, which is a philosophy that Curtis and his team at Improving have strived to embed in their work culture, is explained. He shares his unique leadership style, emphasizing positivity, high energy, and inspiration. We discuss the importance of listening to the ideas of employees and how he prioritizes them in order to benefit both the business and the employees. Curtis introduces a program called Come Together, which helps build and maintain connections among employees. He describes a homegrown product called Engage, used to measure employee involvement and assign values to their contributions, a major part of their profit share is based on this. We emphasize the application of a stakeholder model in business, which is about identifying key partners and building relationships with them. The discussion touches on the importance of leading by example and inspiring with vision, reflecting on how Hype shifted to utilizing personal life books and creating a vision for his organization. The episode ends with a light-hearted conversation about Curtis' first job, barbecue preferences, and cherished family memories. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller GUESTS Curtis HiteAbout Curtis TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Curtis Hite, ceo of Improving. Curtis shares several important lessons he has learned along his entrepreneurial journey, maybe the most important being believe in yourself, but not too much, because you're part of a team. Curtis, I want to thank you for taking the time to join me on Building Texas Business. Curtis: Alright, thank you for having me here. I appreciate you including me. Chris: So let's get started by just you introducing kind of yourself, but more importantly, your company and what it's known for. Curtis: Alright, so Improving is a modern digital services company. I think what we're probably known for most, though, is our participation in leadership in the conscious business movement in the United States. Chris: That's great. What inspired you to start Improving? Curtis: There's actually a story I consider Origin story here, that's good, we're here for stories, okay. And I was working two companies ago at Raytheon. It's a very large company, over 100,000 employees. I was very ambitious as a young man and I had this idea of creating an internal consultancy at Raytheon. Had some skill sets that were fairly unique at the time with the technology transition similar to where we are with AI today but that was object programming, and so I came up with a business plan with my partner there and we presented it to the leadership. It went all the way up to Boston and when a letter came back it included. The words were the sentence tell the software we need to get back to work. Chris: Oh, okay, and so. Curtis: I kind of reflected on that. Being part of 100,000 person organization, those words were never intended. I get that for my eyes right. Right it was intended for more of the senior executives at the organization. But it kind of inspired me to say, well, wait a minute, maybe I can do something different. This is a good business plan and developed it on my own. And instead I took that out and found three partners that were already in the industry and started my first business. But that was the first business, but that's how I got started there. Okay, I kind of pushed there, and this was after four and a half years of being at this larger company. And then the second story, the origins to this one, is rooted in that company, the three partners, that there were, three partners from Raytheon, three partners from this new business, xp, and in the end, without going into a lot of the details, I felt very, maybe betrayed by one of the partners and maybe misled was the a better word Very misled and taken advantage of, and I always remembered that feeling. So take those two stories, plus one more, which was we sold that business to a French organization and we went public during the dot com days and after several years of running that business the French business, let me go and we were experiencing literally record revenues at the time and record profits. Even a majority of the profits of the group are coming out of North America, which I was responsible for. And I remember the shame that I felt in that moment and embarrassment and all the raw feelings that go with that. And there's a little bit of irony there because I might have been thinking about leaving or trying something new, but that kind of jolted me and I had something to prove. I had no intention of going back into the services business again. Yeah, I found myself with something to prove, creating a new services company. That was fueled out of shame, and some people may like that. Chris: Well, essentially you say it that way because my sense is that people were really honest about it. They probably come to the same conclusion you just did and did years ago. Is it maybe some shame or embarrassment that fueled them to prove something wrong and got them going? I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Curtis: Yeah, I'm not going to say there's anything wrong, because shame, if channeled properly, can be a great motivator. Chris: It's not the healthiest of feelings, I get that Right, but it does create a high degree of motivation or denotation, depending on how you are built, how you let it handle or affect you right. Curtis: Right. And so my partner, rick, in this business he actually three or four years in and we very quickly we went from 600,000 to 2 million to roughly 6.8 to 10 million in our first four years and he was worried that I would lose the motivation right, and that really didn't happen. It shifted and motivation came from a different place. But in those early years. Chris: I remember the earlier events and what can I learn when shake this company and I didn't want to mislead anybody, Right. Curtis: From lesson from. Lesson two yeah, I didn't want to feel like a number, anybody that would feel like a number. I was 139662. Chris: That was my number at the large company and that's what you would give that number instead of your name. Curtis: Right, and I felt a little treated that way when it's tell that software, we need to get back to work Right. And so when we formed the company, culture was a very important and perhaps one of, I think, our greatest accomplishments is that we've been named to over 100 best places to work. We've been number one here in Houston, led by Devlin Wells. We've been number one in Dallas, we've been number one in Texas, we've number one in Ohio, and it's not about being number one because in almost all of our offices were recognized, but it's just really about the executives at the company caring about the employees. Chris: Right the way they feel valued. Curtis: Right and that's what I'm genuinely carrying and valuing the employees, although it's not all about the employees all the time either. It's this careful balance. Chris: Sure, Well, if they don't feel valued, you're not going to win awards like that, right? Because they pull into your organization to really try to get a feel for the pulse and what's really going on. Well, thank you for sharing the origins because to me there's so much learning in that and in each entrepreneur's story there's different things that cause inspiration, from ideas and knowledge to emotions and feelings. What I gather from yours is there's kind of a series of three different setbacks, if you will, that you learn from in different ways An idea being disregarded by a large corporation hear those stories all the time. Partner issues in a business and learning from that. Hear that, represent and guide people through those issues all the time, and then this kind of the shock of being let go when you thought you were doing everything right. So I think it's a really cool, well-rounded story. So when did you talk about starting improving with your partner? What year was that? Give us a reference in time. Curtis: The very end of two things. Chris: Okay, so, wow. So you were a few years into that company. You were talking about the success over four years. You had economic crash in 08, but you were thriving through that. Curtis: Right, we actually built the company in the Great Recession and we grew every year through that environment. In fact, we've grown every year in our history, so we've never had a year. Some years it's small, a few percentage points. Other years it's big growth, but that really it's core of one of our values, which I call involvement, or which we call involvement, and that our success is a consequence of our collective involvement and leaning on each other, no matter what the conditions are good times, bad times. So, yeah, really have a big team and I really believe that. Chris: Yeah, so you've then managed at least through a couple of big downtimes. You talked about the Great Recession. Obviously, we had a global pandemic. What are some of the maybe lessons learned that you could share about how you kept focused to allow the business to continue to grow even though the world around you is, like you know, in chaos? Curtis: The first thing is remembering your team. Sometimes, as entrepreneurs, it's easy to become self-reliant, sizing your own role in this and maybe even disregarding the roles of others. So I highly encourage people and I had that lesson early on that I don't have tendencies to do that. In fact, I know deep down the exact opposite is true and pull the team together and what are we going to do in these crises or these downtimes? What are some of the ideas? So that also lets you know you're not alone. It's a good point. A lot of business owners, including myself, I often feel alone. Chris: Sure. Curtis: But I'm reminded that when I ask for help or I'm a little bit vulnerable, then I'm not alone. I'd simply feel alone, often because of the own barriers that I put up for myself, and that would be the number one thing I would remember in any of these downtimes. The second is to remain focused on what is most important, and that's unfortunately sometimes that's keeping a business alive and being not only an active member but considered a leader in conscious capitalism movement. People sometimes misinterpret that means we can't do layoffs. We can't because we're conscious business. How those are contradictory. They're not contradictory. Sometimes we have to make the decisions to keep a business healthy and unfortunately, when you care about the employees, yet at the same time we have to make decisions because you care about the business and the longevity of the employees. It requires difficult decisions. Don't be afraid to make them, but make them with a caring heart. Chris: Right, but I wanna talk more about the conscious capitalism movement. But I think you hit on something that's very important Not losing sight. At the end of the day, you're kind of responsible for a healthy, thriving business. Does it mean you're not gonna face hard decisions that affect people's lives? But the other thing I think I've learned and I'm curious if it's been your experience is, when you're faced with those hard decisions, the sooner that you can make them and not rashly but with good information the better off everyone involved is the employees affected, the company, yourself as a leader and moving through that process. Curtis: That's true. In my career I've had to do layoffs three times. Okay, one was during the dot-com bust and Enron was our largest client. We built their software. Let's not, we don't need to visit that story anymore. It wasn't us but we built the software. And then the second was during COVID was such a rapid decrease, people pulling back in business and services, just a lot of fear in the industry. And then the most recent one was some restructuring that we had to do this year. Chris: Okay. Curtis: In a weaker and very what I call volatile economy, and they're never easy and I know they're imagined by people that are affected, as this is easy but they're not. But we can't be afraid and I learned from I was forced into it with Enron All night. 40% of our business went away in a single day. Covid was the same thing. Chris: Sure. Curtis: Right, we had business units that lost 65% of their business in three weeks and when you look at that, you're forced into very expedient decisions, but it slowed down enough to make the good decisions. Right, and don't be afraid because you're gonna get negative pushback, but treat people with respect and treat people with care, because these are real people that have real lives and it's a very sad thing. Chris: It is. It is, and in other words I'd add there, treat people with dignity. So it is Absolutely. It is not an easy thing to have to go through as the leader making those decisions. So let's talk a little bit about the conscious capitalism movement, because you talked about it and referred to it twice. I was fortunate enough I shared with you, before we started recording, to speak at one of their events. I think what that is all about is just so wonderful for the business world. Share a little bit about how you and improving have been involved in that. Curtis: I got invited in 2009 and I mentioned earlier my motivation was kind of shame when we're trying to survive and build the business. But about three and a half years in, I got invited by a good friend that I still do business with and friends today, to this CEO summit in Austin and it was a phenomenal event and it was really shifting in my motivation. The keynote speaker there really had a statement at the beginning of his presentation that landed with me and it was that, outside of sales professionals, it professionals have the worst perception among CEOs and I got really defensive because we're an IT company and I'm thinking in my head and I'm journaling instead of listening to the presentation and I kind of realized our own business. Wait a second. Our industry has earned some of that, not all of it, and whether it's perception or reality, we have to own it. And that is when I actually shifted the. My own motivation was to change and shift that perception and not feel victimized by it, but to really turn that into energy on how we change that as an organization. So I was inspired by that event, by the people at the event John Mackie of Whole Foods, who originated the Tip Kindle container store, doug Rao of Trader Joe's these are really great leaders inside these businesses and I got inspired by them, plus that message and I wanted to help the organization. So, through helping the organization, the local chapters speaking on it quite frequently, not being ashamed to be a capitalist but knowing that capitalism can be used for something even greater than the good it already does, is becoming the foundation of our business. I call it the philosophy of our guiding principles. Chris: Yeah, I love that. So, taking that, how does that, or how has it and how does it continue to shape and influence the culture at improving? Curtis: Well, the first, a year later, when I was with my partner at a conference or seminar that was being taught by Stephen coming on trust, I kind of had the epiphany that the reason why we had the perception was because the CEOs didn't trust their IT organizations or partners a lot of the time. So we refold our value to include this concept of trust, and I consider three of our values are identity, but one of our values, building trust, is our ambition, and so this combination of changing this perception by focusing on trust has reshaped our business for the next decade. 70 percent of our employees participate in trust pods every week, voluntarily. They don't have to trust pod is a group of five to 15 individuals talking about these 13 trust behaviors, how they're going to use them in their daily lives with their clients, our stakeholders right, but the biggest effect is how it affects you outside of business, how it affects your relationships at home and with your friends. But this is a relentless pursuit when you think that 70 percent of our employees voluntarily join these groups and talk about building trust every week. Chris: That's. That's amazing what I guess I'm, what I'm assuming occurs in the through the participation of these trust pods, is almost a blending of work and work life and family or personal life, and there is allowing for a bridge, which to me is so important, because I think it's a mistake when people think I'm going to drop who I am as a person or what goes on in a personal life when I step in the office and vice versa, because there's a, to me, a natural blend. It's like let's just acknowledge that it's there, but how can we help them coexist? Curtis: I completely agree. Different conversation, different presentation. But I really don't believe in the concept of work life balance because it really suggests there's one or the other right. They're not connected in any way. I love many of the premises behind it, but I'm a proponent of an integral life. Yes, work is part of your life and family's part of your life, and health, and maybe faith and or learning right, everybody has the areas of their life that they prioritize, but this is a and work is almost in everybody's life. So how do we integrate these and these trust pods become a significant way of integrating and we help right. At least I like to think, and I often get this feedback that the people who participate in these trust pods with the intent of applying it at work benefit even more at home yeah, I can see that. Chris: So You're a software company let's talk about. I mean just saying that, as it is to me, infers innovation. So what are some of the things that you do as the CEO to help encourage and instill the employees at improving, to be innovative, to act innovative, because with some of that, you know you have to create a safe environment and allow for failure. So what are some of the things that you have done or are doing there to improving, to help foster that? Curtis: I referred to one of our values before, that our success is the consequence of our collective involvement, and I've referred to trust. One of the trust behaviors is to listen first and really combining those two things to try to be innovative, to gather ideas right. As a CEO, you also have to be mindful that you're going to get a lot of good ideas from your employees when you ask, but you can rarely execute on them all right. So at any given time there's probably 100 things on the money put in quotes. The world's be doing right Well, but we can only do three or four of them. So I really try to make an effort to listen, have our other executives at the company listen, try to bubble up some of the most important ideas, but also represent what's important to the business and where the important ideas to our employees overlap with the important ideas to the business are those that we take, because sometimes they don't always overlap right. Employees may want something or the business may want something. That doesn't overlap. So that's a way that we prioritize, but I would say, of the ideas, of the programs we have in place, of the initiatives, we have something called come together. That is a phenomenal gathering and creating connection. The vast majority, 90% don't come from me, they come from the company. Yeah, and it's just listening and finding the good and finding the value is often probably and letting your own ego. You don't have to be. This is for the entrepreneurs up there. You don't have to be the source of all the good ideas. In fact, I would encourage you to be take more pride on identifying the good ideas than being the source of the good ideas. Chris: There's a lot of satisfaction, I think, when you can get to that point of being proud of someone you hired, that maybe you helped train or develop or created an environment where they could be trained, developed, create their own opportunities and reward them for the ideas that they come up with right Absolutely the whole new level of satisfaction. Curtis: It is. Chris: Freeze you up as the leader to do so many more things if the pressure of all the good ideas is off your shoulders. Curtis: That's right, or all the accolades is off of mine or other executives. We actually have a homegrown product. That's, I believe it's part of our competitive advantage. It's called engage, but it's about measuring this involvement that I've talked about. Employees get to enter in things that they are doing to benefit the company, often while benefiting themselves, and it tracks these things and even assigns values to them so that when they do this, they kind of know how they're participating and how they are adding value. A major part of our profit share is based on that. Chris: Oh wow, that's right. Yeah, well, as you know, too right, if you incentivize the behavior, you're likely to get people to behave in that way. So if you incentivize something like that, yeah they're. I imagine the engagement is really strong. Curtis: It is for two reasons. The engage creates visibility. So, as the CEO of a 1600 person organization, how do I get visibility to what people are doing? I have detailed visibility into what people I look at this so they often get accolades. So people that are seeking kind of affirmation and things like that's their reward for something like this. Those that might be more utilitarian and might be more motivated by money there's a money component to it for those people, but not everybody's motivated in one way, so we try to create a mixture. Chris: I like that. So changing the subject a little bit, but still to building a company, driving it to success. You have to work outside your organization with other stakeholders or surrounding yourself with a strong team. You know external professionals. What are some of the things that you have done to identify key partners, build and maintain those relationships that have benefited, I guess, are allowed for improving, to grow, to the company it is today? Curtis: You use a very important word for me, which is a stakeholder. Here we're big proponents of a stakeholder model, not just a shareholder model, and it's very important, I believe, to make sure, like you would your own employees that all of the stakeholders have a certain alignment with your values and your ethos. You're never going to get perfect alignment because these organizations have their differences, which are wonderful, but you should kind of tell those that align similarly and those that don't. So, when we look at suppliers, what are the suppliers that have a similar set of core values? How do they treat right their own suppliers? Because we treat our suppliers better than our own customers treat us right. Chris: Very important. Sure. Curtis: How are they treating their own suppliers? When we look at partners, right, a lot of partners out there are looking at it. What's in it for me? And despite the rhetoric of us, you can sift through that, because as a partnership, are they sometimes willing to go first? Do we go first? Right, have you conscious capitalism? The movement this way? It's a partnership, but we were going first all of the time, without resentment, right, right. Yet in the long game, that ends up paying, even though that was not our purpose. So looking for this alignment becomes key, just like you would with an employee. Chris: Makes sense. It makes us. I like the treat the suppliers better than the customers, because without those suppliers you can't serve your customers. Curtis: No, right? Well, I'm not saying we treat our customers worse than our suppliers. I said that we treat our suppliers better than our customers treat us. Chris: Oh, that's right yeah. Curtis: Because we give the, we try to treat our suppliers as if they were a customer. Chris: Yeah, Makes sense. We like said they're integral to you delivering on your promise. Curtis: Very. Chris: Let's talk a little bit about leadership style. How would you describe your leadership style and maybe I'm probably pretty certain based on this conversation how you would describe it today versus maybe 15 years ago, and maybe some of the things that occurred to cause or help you evolve to where you are today? Curtis: I would describe myself as very positive, high energy. I genuinely care about people and I believe and this isn't hubris, I think many people would agree that I'll rely on inspiration too and I think I'm fairly inspiring in the right circles, both one-on-one and at least at a larger level. But when I look at some of the lessons, how that inspiration has evolved over time is very important and it's kind of very different. When I was younger I tended to rely on kind of leading by example, and if I did everything, then people would be inspired and follow. And that works to some degree and that's a common source of inspiration for people Like oh my gosh, look how hard Curtis is working. And right, he really cares about the business. I might do the same thing, but I do believe that only goes so far. Chris: It's kind of like the command model, and I think even Jim Collins talks about it. You can only get a company so far if it's the charge up the hill type of leader. Right, you can be successful, but to a point. Curtis: And to a point and I switched to trying to inspire with vision, the vision of what we could be, the vision maybe of what I personally can be. And I started with my own personal life books and creating vision for myself, but switched that to the organization inspired by a leadership group, training, staying out of Dallas and to even put together a 10-year vision for the business. And so today we have a 10-year vision, we have three-year visions, we have one-year vision. These are all written, but I tend to be able to see things and see the good in things, and that's one thing. That's why I sit on positive. So that's I see the good and can inspire around the good versus the negative or polarizing concepts in our world today. Chris: What I like about that because I can identify with that is that positive attitude is kind of how to interpret what you're saying. Is that you're in control of that. Right, you can control whether you're really going to bring up positive mindset to whatever the circumstance is or not, and you choose to say I'm going to look for the positive and then try to be inspirational about what we can do in this circumstance, and I think that's effective leadership right. Curtis: Positivity is a choice. Chris: Yes, right. Curtis: And whether it's in our personal life or our professional life, we can, in almost any circumstance, choose to find something of gratitude in the circumstance. There are things I get it that we it's too hard to find and I'm not diminishing those, but for most things in people's lives and that becomes a choice. I've also found, and for anybody listening to this, think of your three favorite managers, leaders you ever worked for. Would any of your favorites ever be described as negative? I've asked this more than 1000 times and outside somebody hearing this and trying to prove me wrong, nobody, ever, not a single person, has ever said yes, their favorite was negative. It is something of the most effective leaders. Positivity is one of what we have found to be the six most common traits. Chris: It didn't surprise me at all. It didn't surprise me at all. So let's kind of just to wrap up this conversation. What I always like to ask guests to do is we've got an audience of aspiring entrepreneurs, or maybe just started our own business. What are one or two nuggets of you know? My guess, takeaways that you would say, hey, if you're out there doing this or thinking about it, if you don't do anything else, do at least this. One or two, two things, or maybe avoid X and learn from my mistake. Anything that you can draw upon in your experience of you know. Two, I guess, two companies, three companies now that you could share. Curtis: First I would say believe in yourself, but not too much, and remember, remember deeply in your heart that you're part of a team and while the pack maybe nothing without the wolf, you have to remember that the wolf is also nothing without the pack and these things come aligned. So it's a team effort and very early on to and this is a radical idea I shared 87% of the company, and this was not just me, this was my partner coming alongside saying let's do so. My partner and I combined had about 23% of the company voting units, so we could be voted off the island at any time. Interesting that is sharing in the success of the company and that's one of our tenants today of creating a good work environment that we really did share. From an equity perspective, you may not have to share that much, okay, but it worked for us and I'm not and I'm not going to complain. But what I found most commonly, the most owners that we've found true owners in any business has been six and we've talked to hundreds of businesses. Yet we have hundreds of them and we're a privately held company. Chris: Yeah, no, that's impressive and definitely putting your money where your mouth is right about trusting the collective group to be successful, because they'll benefit from it as much as you will. Curtis: And then they. We found people have stayed, they've benefited and they're inspired often, yeah, harder towards a collective goal. Chris: That's great. That's great advice. Yes, thank you for that. Thank you. So on the personal side, we'll lighten up the mood a little bit. So what was your first job? Curtis: Oh, first job was mowing lawns because I got in trouble as a kid. Don't want to share that full story, except me and my brother putting some napalm burn some people's tires, goodness only, and I ended up mowing lawns for a long time to prefer to buy the tires back and all of that. Chris: Oh, that sounds like that. Yeah, there's a deeper story there, for sure. Okay, Tex-Max or barbecue. What do you prefer? Curtis: Barbecue. Chris: Okay, no hesitation there. I like it. Curtis: Love barbecue. Chris: And then last question if you could take a 30 day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Curtis: Wow, I don't know where I'd go, but I know who I'd go with and I would take my two kids, Colin and. Chris: Autumn Awesome, that's great. No, no better people spend time with right that's right, all right. Curtis, thank you for sharing your story and being so open about what you've done through your career, the setbacks, the successes, and what you're doing now to build, improving, to the amazing company it is. Curtis: Thank you so much for having me today.

Upcoming Event!How Can Mindfulness Help You Reach Financial Independence?Do you want to reduce money anxiety, but don't know who to trust?Would you like to learn how to set up and manage your own retirement plan?Do you want to know how we create a passive income stream you can't outlive?If yes, join us and learn how to answer the 4 critical financial independence questions:Am I on track for financial independence?What do I need to do to get on track?How do I design a mindful investing portfolio?How do I manage that portfolio and my income over time through changing markets?Learn more: https://courses.mindful.money/financial-independence-bootcampChris Mamula documented his personal path to financial independence at Eat the Financial Elephant for several years before leaving his career as a physical therapist in 2017 at age 41. Shortly after, he joined Darrow Kirkpatrick at Can I Retire Yet?, where he continues to follow his calling of helping people live their best lives. He's the co-author of the book, Choose FI, and his mission is to spread the life-changing message of financial independence to a broader audience. Today, Chris joins the show to talk about common misconceptions around the FIRE Movement, what it means to have a valuist mindset, and why it's imperative to prioritize saving money.

Today's Building Texas Business Podcast episode finds us chatting with Robert Grosz, President and COO of the tech company WorldVue. Robert shares insights into how WorldVue has sustained success for decades through strong customer relationships and a responsibility-centered culture. He details their customer-centric approach and innovation fostering, revealing lessons learned navigating the pandemic with a dedication to service and constructive dialogue. Robert also opens up about transitions into leadership, emphasizing quick decisions, balancing loyalty with progress, and his thoughtful vision for a blended family-exploration sabbatical. From navigating disagreements to keeping pace with industry shifts, Robert offers a compelling view of resilient leadership. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Robert Grosz, the President and COO of WorldVue, discusses how the company drives growth through strong customer relationships and a company culture rooted in responsibility. He highlights the importance of fostering innovation, creativity, and relevance in the ever-changing tech landscape to stay competitive. We discuss WorldVue's response to the pandemic, emphasizing the importance of their company culture, which includes responsibility, dedication to customer service, and the importance of constructive dialogue. He talks about his transition into a leadership role at WorldVue, emphasizing the importance of quick decision-making and his philosophy on loyalty. Robert shares his proposition for a 30-day sabbatical, and his appreciation for the dynamic beauty of Texas. The episode touches on building relationships and driving growth,We discuss how WorldVue has been successful for 50 years by solving problems, befriending customers, and adding value to their lives. Building a strong company culture is discussed, with Robert explaining how WorldVue managed to successfully navigate the pandemic thanks to its dedication to customer service and focus on responsibility. Building trust and success in leadership is also covered, with Robert emphasizing the importance of making decisions fast and how loyalty can be an adversary to that philosophy. Robert shares his vision for a 30-day sabbatical, which includes spending the first two weeks at home with family and the last two weeks exploring the dynamic beauty of Texas. Finally, We discuss Roberts approach to navigating leadership disagreements, sharing a key lesson learned from past experiences that resulted in lost opportunities. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller GUESTS Robert GroszAbout Robert TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you'll meet Robert Grosz, president and Chief Operating Officer of WorldVue. Robert shares how WorldVue focuses on building a culture of responsibility by being a service-oriented company to its customers in order to drive growth. Robert:, I want to thank you for agreeing to come on Building Texas Business. It's a pleasure to meet you. Robert: Chris, it's great to meet you as well. Chris: Let's get started by just telling the audience about WorldVue and what it's known for. Robert: Chris, have you ever had a friend that is really good at something, whether it's fixing cars or technology, programming your TV, things like that? Chris: It's a friend that you can count on. Robert: It's their best friend. Sure, they go above and beyond. If you've got a problem, you know you can come to them. They respond quickly and they give it their all. Even if they don't know about the solution, they give it their all and they help you and they add value to your life and you build that friendship. That's what we strive for at WorldVue. WorldVue is a company that's been in business for almost 50 years now, houston-based. Our customers are hotels and our expertise is technology. So if a hotel brand, a hotel owner, an individual hotel has a problem with technology, we want them to come to us because we want to be their best friend forever and add value to their lives. So what we're known for is solving problems for hotels, befriending them, building relationships with them and just being part of that industry, being part of the hospitality business. Chris:And that's what's made us successful for 50 years. That's great. I love how it's so ingrained that it's about relationships and even using the analogy of best friend, what inspired you to get involved with WorldVue? What inspired this company to get to where it is today? Robert: Yeah, so they've been along a lot longer than I've been with them. Chris: Sure, I don't look that. You started a company. I started when I was one. Robert:No, no, that's started long before. It's a family business. It's still a family business. The founder still comes to work. He's usually the first one there and the last one to leave. I'm very, very engaged but of course the business has changed a lot over the years. I've known the company for the last 17 years. I actually was with Dish Network. Dish Network is where WorldVue gets their programming, their content, the TV content and some of their technology and I got to know them as a supplier, vendor, got to know the people. I fell in love with the people, fell in love with the company, the culture. The time came where they were kind of pivoting and it's kind of the next generation of WorldVue and we're building this company as a legacy business to last for the next 10 generations and they needed someone with my skillset, my expertise, to help lead them into that. And that's kind of how I got to know WorldVue and got to be involved with WorldVue. Now I'm the president and chief operating officer of the company and I've got a great team around us and teamwork I'm sure we're going to talk about teamwork and people are very, very important and kind of fulfilling our mission. So yeah, that's the origin story of how I got involved with WorldVue. Chris: Okay, that's great. So technology company means evolution and innovation have to be in the fabric of the company. So talk to us a little bit about what you do in your role to foster creativity, innovation, to keep WorldVue relevant in its industry. Robert: Yeah, sure, and relevance. I'm glad you said that word. Relevance is our key growth driver. So you know we've got two growth drivers One's relevance, which is all about product, it's all about the technology that we're out there evangelizing, designing and supporting and really becoming experts at, and with that relevance drives market share growth and getting into more and more and more hotel properties. We currently serve 7000 properties in the US, and now we're expanding internationally. But we're a product driven company because that's our expertise. You know, we want to be the best friend to our clients. That's kind of why we exist. But the what we do is the technology, and we will use technology from leading providers that are off the shelf, you know some big brands that everyone's heard of before, like LG and Cisco. You know brands like that, but what we'll do is we'll take those and we'll integrate them. So integration is kind of what we do best and it's kind of our secret sauce is how do you integrate big, big brands like an Oracle with a LG which does interim entertainment and TV technology? That's our secret sauce. Chris: So the integration. Robert: We're the glue between big technologies and we do it very well. And again, if you lean back on the why you actually want to develop this relationship to add value to your customers and we want your customer to be your best friend. That's kind of what we're doing. So it is related to the technology. We like to say we're a service company that just happens to do technology. We're not a technology company that tries to do service. That's one of our big differentiators. Chris: I would imagine that's a meaningful difference in mindset when you go to the hiring process and building your team to have that servant service oriented mindset be the lead, primary thing you're looking for. What are some of the things you're you do to make sure you're hiring the right people that fit that mindset? Robert: Yeah, yeah, yeah surrounding yourself with people better than you is one of our mantras at any level of the company, and I think if you, just if you, champion that mantra, you know constantly looking for people that do things a little bit better than you, whether it's a specific skill or an attitude, and I think attitude is something you can't really teach. Attitude is something that you carry with you as a human being in your existence, is your WorldVue, which is one of the reasons for the name world. Chris: Gotcha, that makes sense is. Robert: You've got to have that. You've got to have your head on straight as it relates to how do you interact with others, how you act with it, with a team, how you help build the team, how you pull in the same direction to achieve a goal, and those things are very important. We can hire people that are incredibly intelligent, incredibly book smart, have done amazing things and we do but but if, if you don't hire for the attitude and you don't hire for the teamwork, you're going to end up failing, and that's really what we look for there's some tools you have in place so that in that process, the people doing the interviews, whatever it is, and however you go about that, that help you identify or get a bead on the attitude that the candidate has. Yeah, so so we developed our own tools and we, of course, use off the shelf tools, personality assessments and things like that. But, we developed a tool that we called chirp. It's an acronym C, h, I, r, p coachable, humble, intelligent, responsive and persistent. So what we do is, when we're talking to someone, we try to bounce those, those, those challenges, those dynamics off of the candidate to see if they're open to actually learning and becoming a better person. Chris: And if you don't have the C, the coachable. Robert: It's going to be hard for you to be part of the team. Sure Because regardless of what you know, even the smartest person on earth, there's still something for them to learn and they have to be open minded about absorbing that and taking some direction and realizing the experience of others. So coachable humble humility is important. It's related to coachable Intelligence. Isn't book smart, it's more emotional intelligence. It's no one what to say when to say it. Being quick on your feet, having that mindset about who you actually are as a person and how you interrelate to each other, and then how you actually consult problems related to a specific tactical technology, that's intelligence. Chris: Responsive you know. Robert: When the phone rings, you answer it. When an email comes in, you respond to it, you don't let it dwindle. Right and persistence. Persistence is that hunger and that energy, right. Persistence is, you know, knowing that there's a goal, knowing that it's going to be tough to get to that goal, if it's worth pursuing and fighting for it. You know so. Together is the chirp. If you look at our logo, there's a wonderful sparrow icon, which is the chirp, which is a bird, so it all ties together. Chris: Okay. So how do you then take this service oriented mindset you hired using chirp, which I love the acronym. How do you then take that into action and actually go about building these relationships to where your customers become your best friends? How do you connect those dots? Robert: Yeah, so I mean it's about engagement with the customer on their turf right. The world revolves around the customer, doesn't revolve around us as individuals or as a company. So you go to where they are. You go to where the relevance factor is high to them, whether it's a trade show event or it's their office, whether it's charities that they might sponsor and support that are worthwhile getting involved with you. Try to make it about a personal relationship, and that's where our best customers and our best employees thrive is when you can truly make it about the individual. That's very, very important to us. We get on their turf and we try to understand who they are as a person. We're not just checking a box. If we check a box, we become a commodity. When we become a commodity, then the margins are rode, financial performance isn't there and we don't exist Right. So we've got to make it about that personalization. We've got to make it about the customer. Chris: Very good. So let's talk a little bit about how the company has maybe managed over these last few years. I would think, given what we experienced in 2020 and coming in a few years out of that there was, your customers, at least, had probably suffered some downturns in their business, which probably translated to you. What are some of the things you did to help manage the company through those tough times? Robert: Sure, yeah Well, the hospitality industry in general and a lot of industries, but especially the hospitality industry. When people stopped traveling for business, they stopped traveling for personal. They didn't go on vacation. We had a lot of our hotels closed down. Some of our hotels stayed open for first response medical personnel, things like that and they did okay. Some very limited service hotels that don't really exist for that business traveler but they exist just because they need a bed to rent Actually did okay. They thrived, they had good occupancy. We as a company were fortunate. We managed, not by laying people off and cutting back, but we managed by committing and recommitting to our employees. So we had no layoffs because of COVID. We took a kind of unique philosophy to the pandemic and that period of time two, three year period of time where we got back in the office as soon as we could and we did that in a safe way. So there was social distancing and making sure that everything was clean and being aware to the health of all of our employees and respecting individual wishes, but we encourage people to get back in the office in October of 2020. And we've been back since, and we do that because we think that people communicate best in person. It's probably one of the reasons you have us all here to have a podcast, as opposed to doing it virtually. Absolutely Is that personal connection. You can't put your finger on it, but it's important. So I think that that action was a cultural move and I think it's had it's paid dividends for us. I hope it's paid dividends for our employees and I think we'll continue with that mindset. We were there to help our customers, so we were making sure, from a commercial perspective, that we could give them as much relief as possible. We were there to help them turn up their properties, turn down their properties using all kinds of technologies. So there's a lot of different technology out there that a hotel uses. And we were there for them, in all fronts. Chris: That's great. I can totally identify with that thought process, that mindset. We took the same approach in 2020, got people back in in May of 2020, doing the same thing making sure the workplace was safe, but with the view that we work better together. It does foster a healthy culture. I think it makes us better in who we are and in our work and how we can serve our clients and customers. And, to your point, I'm pretty adamant that these podcasts although we've done a few via Zoom because we had to 90, I mean there's I don't need all fingers on one hand, they've almost all been in person, because you just can't replace the dynamic when you're together. So you touched on it. I want to go down this trail with you. And that's culture. How would you make, describe the culture at WorldVue and what are some of the things that you have done to build and foster that culture? Robert: Sure, so we have a culture of responsibility. We're responsible to each other as much as we're responsible to our customers and we have a promise that we make, which is we deliver every time, no exception. And that is as relevant for the guy in the office next to you as it is to your customer, which could be a couple thousand miles away. Right, you know, we deliver every time, no exception. So if someone needs something, we strive to deliver that right. We strive to deliver on the promise. Sometimes it's not easy, oftentimes it's not easy, but it takes a lot of energy and a lot of focus, and I think everyone knows that. But that promise in the company from, you know, from the, the, the, the newest call center rep, all the way to the top they all try to kind of pull that direction. That creates that culture of rowing in the same direction. And that is very, very important. Because if you've got a company that's rowing in multiple directions, it's going to be, it's going to be problematic, it's going to be expensive, the trust is going to be violated, you're not going to be able to move quickly and address customer needs, you're not going to look at the dynamic of what customers can offer in the marketplace and turn quickly to address that it's. It's really core to to who we are as a company, as as individuals. Chris: So what do you do as the president, chief operating officer, low leader, to show up so that people understand that you live the culture, you can enforce that culture. What are some of the things you do to reinforce that every day? Robert: Yeah, so you've got to lead from the front. It's all about attitude. You can't come in all slouched over. You've got to be on point and you've got to do it authentically. It can't be fake, right? And that's a challenge sometimes. Chris: For sure. Robert: And you've got to have your focus. You've got to have your eye on the prize, if you will. Communication is critical, so routine, touch-based meetings. I don't like to have long meetings that consume people's time or people attend the meeting to be attending the meeting. I want there to be a purpose and a reason. I want there to be lots of dialogue. Constructive criticism. Constructive differences make everything special and you can't just kind of dominate. You've got to listen to the different opinions. Chris: Ask more questions. Robert: Ask more questions. We like to say listen 10 times more than people are talking, and you've got to lead by example. If you don't do that yourself as an individual, again something's wrong and everyone sees it and everyone knows it. Chris: So I asked most guests about setbacks or failures and we learned sometimes much more by those. Is there a situation or experience you can think about as a leader where it didn't go as you hoped or it was a failure or setback in a decision or strategy, but you learned from it and the learning from that has made you better today than you were before. Yeah, absolutely. Robert: I mean I've got lots of setbacks and failures, but I think one big example would be if there is a disagreement between leaders and they're not seeing eye to eye and they don't address it quickly, it can create division and that division creates distraction and the distraction creates lost opportunities. And we've dealt with that over the last few years. We've had some disagreements on the direction we needed to go and the solution was coming in the room together, fixing it, getting it on the same page, having the confidence and the buy-in at the most inner level as a person, as an individual, and making the team more cohesive. So you can go from cohesive to a failure very quickly if you don't pay attention to that dynamic. So that was one of big lessons learned. There are others where you bring individuals into the company based upon their experience and their pedigree and you throw them into our mix and they just don't dance our dance and they create a bunch of disruption and you've got to move fast there. It's tough letting people go. It always is tough letting people go, but oftentimes it's good for them as much as it's good for the company, because they're not comfortable in their shoes. That's tough to be a person. When you're not comfortable in your shoes, it's tough to live a life. Chris: Yeah, you touched on something there that I think everyone that I've interviewed in these podcast agree. The biggest lesson learned maybe in that difficult time when someone's not fitting is making that decision faster than you feel like you probably want to, because the person that's not fitting in your organization will be better off because it's just not a good fit and they'll find the place they fit better and your organization will be better because that person that's not fitting is going to be a distraction. It potentially could erode culture and you're just always better off moving faster, even though it'd feel right in your gut sometimes. That's right. You're affecting human lives. Robert: Yeah, and loyalty, by the way is the adversary to that philosophy. Chris: Right, so we all want to be loyal to people. Robert: I think good people are loyal, but you have to have the vision, the foresight, the clarity to understand where there's loyalty and then there's a bad fit, a poor fit. And if there's a poor fit then the best move is always make it a better fit. So that's very important. Chris: As WorldVue has grown, what have you done to build a team around you and let go of some of the things that maybe you used to do more on a day-to-day basis and learn to make us trust and let go yeah, trust is a key word. Robert: So finding people better than you at things, making sure that they're the right fit and then trusting that they're going to get the job done, and sitting back and delegating some responsibilities that you may have you may think that you need to do to them or to their teams, and then watching it grow. And it's very easy to delegate to somebody, but it's difficult to give them enough rope where they're going to actually lead or fail. If they fail, then you can step back in and you can fix it and you can delegate to someone else. You could coach them, but if you've got good people around you I mean if you've got good people that are pulling in the same direction they will self-adjust, they will succeed because they want to reach the same goal that you want to reach. So in some ways it can be very, very simple and easy. Oftentimes it doesn't feel that way when you're doing it, so that's an interesting dynamic. Chris: It really is. The other thing I was going to ask you about, excuse me, is you kind of had an interesting experience in that. I guess I'm talking about transition, succession from founder of company that's still around, as you mentioned in the beginning, but you stepping in to the leadership role as president, chief operating officer maybe talk to us, because there's some listeners out there maybe doing that or or that's in their near future. Let's talk a little bit about what were some of the challenges of bridging that transition gap as you took over as the president of the company. Robert: Yeah, I think, from my personal story, it's about building trust and having integrity as well as having a deep level of respect. If someone founds a company that's been around for almost 50 years, I look up to them. I don't care what that company is. I mean, they've done something that a lot of people have never experienced or will never experience, and I've got to give them tons of credit for that and have utmost respect for that effort. But making that person or that group of people trust you and inspiring them to let you lead is a significant, significant initiative that you've got to have a lot of purpose, a lot of focus on, and that's kind of the most important part, I think, is to to build a relationship. Build that relationship, build the trust, be authentic, have integrity. They will then see that you can lead and take what they've done to the next level and hopefully that will benefit their family and families for generations to come, because that's the ultimate outcome. It's not building to flip it, it's not make a fast buck. In fact, the bucks have nothing to do with it. It's about the purpose. It's about what you deliver value to society, to your customers. It's about what you want to do. That's why that analogy to a friend a best friend is really good at something. I think that's a very good focus for us to have, and I think that if you can generate thousands and thousands of friends throughout the world that all have that need, you've got a successful business that's providing college educations, food on the table, happiness, travel, fun for families, countless families. That's really exciting. That's kind of the passion. Chris: Did you have any challenges as that transition, where the people that used to report directly to the founder maybe weren't coming to you at first, and how did you manage that? Robert: I would be lying to say that that doesn't still exist. It does. It's just a challenge that you have to acknowledge and you have to kind of embrace. I get it. Like I said, the respect level that I have for the founder, the founding family, is so high that I would expect that legacy employees that have been around for a long time. Look at that with the same level of respect. Chris: So you don't take offense to it, oh you can't take offense to it. Robert: It's an eagle driven thing. Chris: Yeah, well, it sounds like that attitude that you bring to it is consistent with the culture, that you're the mindset of the right attitude and that the company's got everyone going in the same direction. Yeah, that's right. So it's not easy running a company the scale and size that you do. What are some of the things that you've done personally to try to have a very successful business life, but also very successful and fulfilling personal life? Robert: Sure, yeah, I mean, I've got four children, twin three-year-olds, a seven-year-old and a 22-year-old and a wonderful wife at home and you know you can't lose focus on what they need and what they want. You can't lose focus on being at home. Right, home is where the heart is. Home provides all kinds of emotional support and you know that's kind of been my exercise routine is making sure that I can maintain a healthy home, which you know. There's this concept of balance that I haven't figured out yet Sure like everyone has their own definition right. Yeah, but because of technology you can be in one location and have a FaceTime call with someone else and you at least can, you know, make sure you're there from a voice and a conversation standpoint. But it's not easy. For sure, but it is definitely worth living for, it's worth striving towards, and you know I value the family component of my life tremendously and I'm hoping that that lends itself to the mission of where we are, the direction we're headed as a company. Out that comes off, and you know I try to treat the folks around me that are closest to me in the office like family as well, and I get a lot of practice. Chris: That's good, that's great, great attitude about it. So what do you see on the horizon? What's next for WorldVue? Where do you see the near future taking you? Robert: Well, our friends are getting larger and larger. We're getting more of them. We are expanding internationally. So we just formed entities in the UK and the EU and Dubai, as well as, I believe, in Singapore and Mexico City. So, we've got a strategy to expand what we do globally, which is going to be very, very exciting. It's going to be very, very difficult. The challenge is exciting, though, and the great people around me and our teams are all excited and enthusiastic about that. But, from just growing business and sticking to our knitting in terms of domestic growth. We've got great relationships with hotel brands. There are multiple. The environment of hospitality is multidimensional and very fascinating to me at least. Where you've got a brand presence, you've got real estate owners, you've got operators and then you've got, of course, guests and the occupants of the property and you've got to serve all four of those groups in a special way and make sure that you're coming through for them. And so we've done a pretty good job at all of those levels. We're excited about some of our brand relationships that are growing and we're becoming more of their best friend. They have other friends. Sure You're their best friend. So the growth plan with product competencies as one lever and market share expansion as the other lever, is what's going to take us forward, and we'd like to be five times larger than what we are in the next five years. Chris: Oh, it's aggressive, it's aggressive. I was going to ask you what's driving that growth? Robert: It's demand. The demand that there's so much technology out there. Technology has become this kind of ambiguous word, right. Sure when it could be hard technology, like a wireless access point or a TV or an ethernet switch or a door lock, or it could be a software right. The software is kind of the glue that makes that hardware valuable, and the software on each of those individual devices is unique. And the key is how do you integrate those softwares together to create an amazing experience, whether it's for a guest, for a hotel associate, the housekeeper or for the owner of the property? In terms of value creation through stronger profitability, there's opportunities to leverage technology to not only solve problems but create opportunities. We think that's where the real demand is going to come from. We just have to be there to be their best friend make it all work and when they have a problem, come to us. Chris: Be that trusted friend. Robert: Be the trusted friend, trusted advisor. Chris: So what advice would you give to someone who aspires to be a business leader or entrepreneur, based on your experience, Create a focus, like create something you really want to achieve. Robert: Start at the end, like what do you want your life to look like and what do you see doing that really is a passion for you. Leave all the other stuff out of that equation, leave the money out of that equation, leave the location out of that equation. But focus with the end in mind, in terms of how you'd like to live to, and then build backwards from there, like what does it take to get there? Create a roadmap for yourself. I know, very early on in life I saw the movie Wall Street and this is on silly, but I loved business after that. I don't know why I don't know what it was, maybe it was the acting, I don't know but I wanted to be a businessman, I wanted to be in business and then I lived my life. I got to college. I was lucky enough to run into some very influential professors. One of them happened to be a real estate guy. He was doing commercial real estate development and exposed me to a company called Equity Group Investments which is based in Chicago. I grew up in Wisconsin, based in Chicago. A guy named Sam Zell who just passed away this last year. And Sam was an iconic entrepreneur, a builder of businesses all along the real estate kind of foundational area, and I decided I wanted to work for Sam Zell. So I graduated college, moved to Chicago, no job, started originating mortgages 100% commission straight out of school and just pursued Sam's company, got involved with Equity Residential, which was his apartment rate, got in the flow of that company, developed this love of technology. I've always had a love of technology, applied technology to real estate early on in the early 90s, kind of made a name for myself, and then that took me to where I am today, which is real estate technology, the scene between the two, solving problems and then being someone's best friend. Chris: There's value there. Robert: And that's kind of how what. I would advise so, start with the end of mind. Chris: Okay, I love that Great story, so let's turn to a little lighter subjects. What was your first job? Robert: First job was? That's a great question. First job I worked in a warehouse and I was moving things around a warehouse after school and I was 14, 15 years old. Like no technology involved in that there was like a tow motor, a tow motor and a truck and a dock. But you know, and really exposed myself to an interesting lifestyle, you know, the people who work in warehouses are pretty salt of the earth and you know, boy, you sweat it in that job right, and then you know. But probably my most interesting job and the one that I was at the least or the shortest amount of time was. I joined a roofing crew in a summer in college and I was on that job for a total of four hours. Chris: And. Robert: I had blisters and bloody hands in that first morning. It was a commercial three-story roof, pitched roof, asphalt, you know, shingles and those guys. I've never seen someone work as hard as them and I couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. So I went to work as a teller after that. Chris: Okay. Robert: Two weeks later, a bank teller. Chris: Okay, okay, well, so you mentioned you grew up in Wisconsin. Yeah, Been in Houston a while now, so, being newer to Houston and Texas, what do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Robert: Oh, barbecue. I love the quality of the food meats you know the taste. I think it's good that there's a competition between barbecue to see who's best. I love like playing that game. Chris: It's a good experience as well, there's so many good options. Last week, in fact, someone was visiting Houston, so we've heard all about Texas barbecue. Where do you recommend we go? And I was stumped. Tell me kind of what you like or what you want, because it depends. That's great. So if you could take a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Robert: Yeah, so that's easy. I spend the first two weeks at home just being at home. You know being a dad being, you know being a husband. I think that's very, very important, boy, that would be a good vacation. Chris: Yeah. Robert: And then maybe the last two weeks I'd stay here in Texas. I go to Hill Country. Yeah, there's so many great places in Texas. It's like a whole different country really. Chris: Sure. Robert: You could go to Dallas and spend some time downtown Dallas doing some fun stuff. You could stay here in Houston and experience all kinds of interesting stuff. Or you could go to Austin, go to Hill Country. It's just the dynamic is incredible. Chris: Couldn't agree more, so I'd stay here close to home. I travel enough. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Well, Robert:, thank you again for agreeing to be a guest. I loved hearing your story and what you're doing at World View and the team that you all have there. So thanks again. Robert: Absolutely, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, Chris. Special Guest: Robert Grosz.

Want to help define the AI Engineer stack? Have opinions on the top tools, communities and builders? We're collaborating with friends at Amplify to launch the first State of AI Engineering survey! Please fill it out (and tell your friends)!If AI is so important, why is its software so bad?This was the motivating question for Chris Lattner as he reconnected with his product counterpart on Tensorflow, Tim Davis, and started working on a modular solution to the problem of sprawling, monolithic, fragmented platforms in AI development. They announced a $30m seed in 2022 and, following their successful double launch of Modular/Mojo

Today's guest is Chris Rawley.   Chris is the CEO of Harvest Returns, an agriculture investment platform. He has invested in real estate and income-producing agriculture for over two decades.   Show summary:   In this podcast episode, Chris discusses the opportunities in agricultural investing, emphasizing the importance of agriculture in providing food for the growing population. He suggests investing in specialty types of agriculture products that are more immune to commodity fluctuations. Chris also explains how Harvest Returns attracts farmers and ranchers looking for financing options, offering creative financing solutions tailored to their specific needs. The conversation covers the benefits of grass-fed beef, regenerative soil practices, and the platform's ability to diversify investors' portfolios. Chris also shares insights on managing deals and investor communications.   -------------------------------------------------------------- Intro [00:00:00] Chris Raleigh's background  [00:00:48] Opportunities in agricultural investing [00:03:34] Ranchers seeking financing [00:10:17] Challenges in funding grass-fed livestock [00:11:11] Expansion and financing options [00:12:02] Working Harder and Time Allocation [00:20:15]  Investor Communications and Management [00:20:49]  Deliberate Growth and Learning from Experience [00:22:11]  -------------------------------------------------------------- Connect with Chris:  @harvestreturns Web: https://www.harvestreturns.com/   Connect with Sam: I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/ Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com   SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f -------------------------------------------------------------- Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below: Chris Rawley (00:00:00) - Agriculture. And I'd say real estate, too, is the are the two industries that touch every single person on the planet. Everybody's going to have a place to stay and everybody's got to have something to eat. So it's not a it's a growing industry, just like real estate. As the population grows, people are going to consume more food, more calories. And so there has to be more farmers and farms to produce it. And as that happens, we have to do it more sustainably.   Sam Wilson (00:00:23) - Welcome to the How to scale commercial real estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big. Chris Raleigh is the CEO of Harvest Returns, an agricultural investment platform. He has invested in real estate and income producing agriculture for over two decades. Chris, welcome to the show.   Chris Rawley (00:00:47) - Thanks a lot for having me here.   Sam Wilson (00:00:48) - Sam Absolutely. The pleasure's mine. Chris There are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90s or less.   Sam Wilson (00:00:54) - Can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there?   Chris Rawley (00:00:58) - Well, like a lot of people in my real estate investing career, I started with single family homes, um, just rental property. And that quickly evolved into multiple single family homes and duplexes and that evolved into land. And then that evolved into I wanted to invest in a farm and there wasn't a good way to do it. So I decided to go the hard way and built a platform for not only myself to be able to invest in farms and ranches, but other people as well. So we've put together over $30 million syndicated farm and ranch and agribusiness deals and been going strong since 2016.   Sam Wilson (00:01:36) - Okay, fantastic. Tell us about the opportunity in agricultural investing.   Chris Rawley (00:01:43) - Yeah. So, you know, the first thing that it's important to know about agriculture is the basis of it is food or the basis of food is agriculture. And we take that for granted. You know, we all go out to eat.   Chris Rawley (00:01:57) - We go to the grocery store, we pretty much got whatever we want 24 over seven, 365 Food is in. Produce is always in season because it's shipped in here from Mexico and South America and beef and lamb shipped from Australia. So so we have we're very blessed in the United States to have access to food and other countries are not they don't have that same benefit. So if you're an investor and you're interested in where your food comes from and how it's produced, investing in a farm or a ranch or an agriculture business is a great way to kind of make that connection and get a little bit more in tune with the food system. On top of that, you know, agriculture and I'd say real estate, too, is the are the two industries that touch every single person on the planet. Everybody's going to have a place to stay and everybody's got to have something to eat. So it's not a it's a growing industry, just like real estate. As the population grows, people are going to consume more food, more calories.   Chris Rawley (00:02:55) - And so there has to be more farmers and farms to produce it. And as that happens, we have to do it more sustainably. So that's kind of the other dynamic that's going on within agriculture right now as technology is being applied to produce food more sustainably and more efficiently.   Sam Wilson (00:03:13) - Right? No, undoubtedly the need is obvious. You know, the need for food won't go away. Tell us about if there is an opportunity from an investment standpoint, like where are you? Where are we in the investing in agriculture kind of cycle if there is even such a thing?   Chris Rawley (00:03:34) - Yeah, you know, there are cycles in agriculture. They revolve around commodities for the most part. So prior to Covid, you know, there's base commodities, things like soybeans and corn. We're kind of in a in a downslope and beef. And now they're there on the especially with food inflation that we've all experienced. Every single one of us has seen that whether you're going to Chick fil A or a five star restaurant, you know that food costs more these days.   Chris Rawley (00:04:04) - And it's it's part of that cycle now. We try to avoid that cycle by investing in kind of specialty types of agriculture products like grass fed livestock that tend to be a little bit more immune to some of the commodity fluctuations. And and indoor agriculture is one of our little specialty niches and and some more other niche things like, like wineries, vineyards. Um, so those are things that, that we hope are inflation proof but also not so impacted by fluctuations in commodities. So if you're looking at farmland itself, there's a lot of people that want to invest in farmland. I would say they're at the top of the cycle right now. Farmland appreciated quite a bit over the past 3 or 4 years, especially what we call row crop farmland, which is things like wheat and soybeans that everybody's familiar with. But for the smaller specialty niche sort of ag spaces that we like to invest in, I think we're not really in a market cycle necessarily.   Sam Wilson (00:05:07) - Got it. Yeah. I want to I want to touch on on that for just a second and then hear kind of what you guys are seeing, where you guys are seeing the opportunity because yeah, I mean, we've seen everybody from Bill Gates to I mean, just everybody and their mother, it seems as investing in farmland.   Sam Wilson (00:05:22) - I actually had lunch with a I'm based here in the Mississippi Delta, of course. So we've got row crops galore across the arc. I mean, we're ten minutes from Arkansas and I got a buddy over there that buys just, you know, he's a broker, but also just buys tons and tons of farmland. And he had never done syndications. He said, hey, you know, we're trying to pull some investors together. I want to do an investigator, you know, and we started talking return profiles. And it was in like 1% annually and returns on cash on cash basis. And I'm like, who's investing? Like who's like, who are you getting that cares about a 1% return? Right. And farmland and obviously it was row crop. You know it's again it's it's the it's the commodities it's the like you mentioned soybeans, corn, wheat, the stuff that everybody grows. But I just wondered from an investment cycle how you guys were different. It sounds like you are like you're not just Yeah.   Chris Rawley (00:06:14) - That yeah. And you know for your buddies that there is that 1% which is probably the annual rents from the cash crops. That's yeah.   Sam Wilson (00:06:22) - That's it.   Chris Rawley (00:06:23) - Land appreciation you know land is they're not making any more of it as all saying goes and especially farmland becomes more and more scarce. But you know, it's, it's an overbought market. That's my personal standpoint right now kind of kind of farmland. That doesn't mean you can't make money over the long term. And it is a long term sort of thing. You're dealing with a speed of biology. You know, people like tree crops. We've done some things like hazelnuts and things like that where you might plant a tree, but it's going to take you seven years or so to start getting some sort of cash flow. So people have to be patient. You have to be creative in the way you structure these deals. You have to be creative in the way that the companies are able to achieve cash flows. So it's it's a lot different than just going out and buying land.   Chris Rawley (00:07:09) - If people want to do that, that's great. And there are ways to do that. There's farmland, REITs and publicly traded stocks and things like that. You can do that. But for our particular investments, something like grass fed livestock, we're actually investing in a ranch operation. There may be a land component, might be a high yield debt that's secured with land or the cattle themselves. We've done both or combinations. So there we tend to pride ourselves in our creativity and these structures, these investment structures, whether it's high yield debt or equity or even convertible debt, we've done all three of those and seen some nice returns.   Sam Wilson (00:07:47) - Can you walk us through I mean, this is really fascinating. I think for me and probably also for our listeners because I think all of us are familiar with the multifamily syndication at this point. We understand the waterfall return, know the splits, all that. I mean, it's just it's we've been down that road more than once on this show. But things like what you're talking about, we've covered almost not at all.   Sam Wilson (00:08:08) - And I forgot to even mention this here at the beginning of the episode. For those of you who don't don't know, Chris actually came back on the show or came on the show. He took a gamble on this show back on December 4th of 2020. So if you want to go back, I think we're at episode we're north of 820 at this point. It was episode five. So you can find Chris back on December 4th, 2020 and kind of get a preview as to what he was working on then and what Chris is working on now. So just wanted to put that plug in there. If you want to get kind of both sides of the coin of what what he's done in the last almost three years now. But let's get back to this creative structures side of things. I mean, I think I think this is fascinating. Can you give us some case studies on how you guys structured it, how you found the deal and kind of what what was the win win between you and the operator?   Chris Rawley (00:08:55) - Yeah.   Chris Rawley (00:08:55) - So one of the niches that we like is livestock. There's very few places for a investor to get into purely investing in a ranch where you are helping a cattle producer or a sheep and lamb producer, that sort of thing grow their business. And we kind of stumbled upon the the method of collateralize the livestock themselves. Since then, we've combine that with collateralized land and collateralized equipment. But these are high yield notes. We've done, gosh, probably 12, 15 million of them, I think, and never had any default. You know, of course, past performance is no indication of future results. But, you know, knock on wood, we've done pretty well. Our investors have done well with them and they're seeing double digit returns. And, you know, which is nice. It's not as nice as it was when CDs were paying 1%. Now CDs are paying 5% or Treasuries, you know, 4 or 5%. You can get those those safe returns. But if you're looking to build beat inflation, getting something north of 10% is always is always good.   Sam Wilson (00:10:05) - Oh, yeah, absolutely. So how do you how do you find a rancher that is in need of capital without finding a rancher that is a bad rancher?   Chris Rawley (00:10:17) - That's a great, great question. You know, the first part of that is they find us. We had a little success, kind of by luck. Um, our deal flow really started to accelerate as we started doing more successful raises that the ranchers that come to us, in some cases they already have conventional land loans, maybe they have equipment loans on expensive piece of. And for anybody that knows ranch equipment is is very, very you know, six figure high six figures to get a tractor or something like that sometimes. Um and they need to expand their herd. So they've got all the pieces in place. Maybe they have a piece of family land that they inherited from their grandfather. So that's generally the biggest expense in these operations is land. So they have that, but they're just starting out. Maybe they grew up, you know, feeding cattle, raising cattle.   Chris Rawley (00:11:11) - They know all about it. They're ready to start on their own. We have a lot of husband and wife's teams and they come to us and say, hey, starting out, we know what we're doing, but we can't get a loan because we don't have a track record. You know, USDA, the AG finance system, the AG credit union system is pretty much optimized for those row crop farmers, right. Like we talked about. And if you're doing something out of the ordinary, if you're doing like grass fed, regenerative livestock, that sort of thing, it's much harder to get funding. So we'll, you know, we'll look at all the pieces of their operation, look what their cash flows can sustain, and then we'll put together some kind of instrument that will work for them, whether that's debt or equity.   Sam Wilson (00:11:55) - Got it. So you guys will come in and structure this debt or equity or both potentially.   Chris Rawley (00:12:02) - Generally we won't do both. I mean, we have done convertible debt, which is, you know, debt that turns into equity.   Chris Rawley (00:12:07) - But we have worked with other pieces of a capital stack where they've got a bank loan and then we'll bring in equity to kind of make them a down payment or help them be able to get a bigger operation. Because like anything else, there's economies of scale and we're trying to help smaller farmers get bigger and make more money and get higher margins. And of course, that's a good thing from the investor standpoint.   Sam Wilson (00:12:28) - Oh, for sure. For sure. And doing things like grass fed beef again, I think that that you're I don't know what the yield is or even the right way to put that because I'm not a rancher clearly. But it you know the dude do those cattle then of course fetch a higher price per pound when they go to they.   Chris Rawley (00:12:48) - Do generally the other piece of that grass fed is that you know grain fed. So all cattle has the same cycle. Life cycle, you know, starts out on milk, mother's milk, then it eats grass and then either becomes grass, finish where it spends its whole life on grass or grain finish where generally it goes to a feedlot and they'll feed grain.   Chris Rawley (00:13:08) - And we have nothing against feedlots. We've supported those. We will continue to support those. But a lot of consumers are really looking for this grass fed grass finished. It takes a little longer to get a product because the cattle doesn't grow as fast as when you're shoving, you know, soy or corn down its throat. It takes a little while. So it's a premium product. Some people say it tastes better. Some people say it's better for you. I'm I'm agnostic. Don't make those judgments. But it's a good market. So we like it. And those those ranchers, the other piece of that is regenerating the soil. We're working with a lot of ranchers that are doing that by, you know, animal agriculture gets a bad rap for a lot of reasons, and most of them are unfounded and produced by misinformation and bad information. But it's really a healthy product and it's a sustainable product when it's done right. We're not talking about clearcutting Brazilian forest, you know, hardwood floors, which a lot of people think about.   Chris Rawley (00:14:06) - That's not the kind of ranches we work with. We work with American ranchers and the Great Plains and Texas and Georgia that are doing their best to to maintain healthy animals and healthy soil and healthy watersheds.   Sam Wilson (00:14:19) - Right. Right. No, there's a lot to be said for that, man. I I'm a big I'm a big fan of grass fed beef. I've got about a cow and a half in my freezer sitting here on the other side of my office wall. So it's. Yeah, I know. I know where it came from. I know it's actually grown by my family in Alabama, but same idea where it's like, Oh, hey, I know the farm this came off of. I don't know exactly. It's, you know, start to finish grass fed. No, it's great, great beef. Anyway, so I'm a believer in the in the great beef strategy that you're employing there. I think I think it's absolutely awesome. So you guys have found a niche it sounds like inside of.   Sam Wilson (00:14:53) - Being basically banking the kind of unbanked sectors of agriculture, if you will call it. That's true.   Chris Rawley (00:15:01) - I mean, part of it is I don't necessarily like the term unbreakable, but it's sure, we're creative in financing in banks for various reasons or not. And we are. So that's that's always a good thing. And that's why these producers keep coming back to us.   Sam Wilson (00:15:17) - Yeah, I'm sorry. I shouldn't use the word un bankable unbreakable. Sounds like they are, you know, some reprobate that can't can't get a credit card. That's not not what they're saying at all. But there are creative structures that you're setting up.   Chris Rawley (00:15:29) - But you know, it's that's just as the banking system becomes more and more regulated and that's what happens. Anybody who's tried to, like, go out and purchase like more than one rental property or more than five rental properties, you know, the drill is, is there's just it doesn't matter how much money you have, how much equity you have, the banks are kind of hamstrung with their with their metrics and their limits.   Chris Rawley (00:15:53) - And it becomes you're essentially unbreakable, even though you're a great credit. You know, you might be a very experienced investor.   Sam Wilson (00:16:00) - Oh, gosh, yes, absolutely. And and I seem to consistently find myself investing in things that are outside of what the norms are because of the opportunities like you're describing, where it's like, oh, hey, you know, we can hit double digit returns, we can do this and this and this, and it's just, it's, it's, um, you know, it's blue ocean for you as an investor, but yet finding the creative way to get that financing across the finish line can be at times a bit challenging. So you've invested in ranches. You talked a little bit about tree crops. I mean, is that something you guys are still active in or is there.   Chris Rawley (00:16:34) - Yeah, I mean, we get probably about 30 deals a month across our desk and maybe four, 4 or 5% of them actually end up on a platform in front of investors. And that's as part of our due diligence process.   Chris Rawley (00:16:46) - But yeah, we do livestock. We're looking at vineyards right now, we're looking at tree crops right now. We're looking at, um, agriculture, technology companies is something we kind of came in, stumbled upon a couple of years ago. These are companies that provide technology to help farmers grow more sustainably and efficiency efficiently and all that. And it's it's obviously a higher risk. It's more like an angel startup investor. Right? But it makes it kind of put some juice in somebody's portfolio. And the beauty of our platform, I think, is, you know, our minimums are fairly affordable. If you've got enough money to kind of self direct your money into a. You know, whether it's real estate or whatever, outside the just dumping money in your 401. Every month and the stock market index, it's supportable because you can spread your 1015 K across multiple deals, spread your risk, but also spread your exposure into different parts of livestock or agriculture.   Sam Wilson (00:17:45) - Right. You mentioned the term platform a couple of times and then you said spread your risk out.   Sam Wilson (00:17:50) - Describe that for us because it sounds like there's something you guys have built maybe that the average syndicator doesn't have.   Chris Rawley (00:17:57) - Yeah. So it took us a while to get here, but we've got the deal flow and we've got all the technology in the back end that we launch a new offering about every 2 to 3 weeks. Wow. Um, so we're, we're constantly, you know, we're serial issuers. I guess you would, you would classify us where we've got offerings going. And these are farms and ranches raising anywhere between and businesses, you know, $200,000 to several million dollars and and sometimes that's part of a much, much bigger project like we've done where we were just a piece of a capital stack of a $50 million project, but we may have only invested 500, 600,000. And then we've done some where we were a big chunk of of a, you know, new farmer, that new rancher that described kind of getting off their feet. But maybe they maybe they're sitting on $1 million piece of land and they just need a few hundred thousand dollars to go out and buy some fences and chutes and cattle and things like that.   Sam Wilson (00:18:51) - How do you manage all of I mean, a new issue every 2 to 3 weeks is that's a lot of parties. That's a lot of ranchers, you know, don't even know what you call them. Guess you farmers, I guess, is what you call people growing, you know. Yeah. Tree crops and all those sorts of things. I mean, how do you manage all of those various entities and people? That's a lot of communication, I would think it is.   Chris Rawley (00:19:16) - And you know, started out just me and my partner Austin Manus back in 2016. And we would launch, you know, we launched our first deal on 17 and we launched, I think, maybe two deals that year. Um, maybe, you know, it's just grown. We've grown the team, we've, we've improved our processes. We've got a lot of automation in our due diligence process and our asset management process. So it is a lot to juggle. You know, we send out like 1600 K ones. I think this year it's quite a, it's a, it's a lot, but I've got a super accountant, super, you know, resources that we tap into.   Chris Rawley (00:19:50) - We've got some third party providers that do all the sort of background compliance stuff. So we just kind of put all the pieces together and that was the hardest part of starting or getting to where we are is organizing the pieces. We didn't know what we didn't know. And now we have learned lessons the hard way in some cases, and we've got built a system kind of systematize our building our business, and we're able to iterate it over and over again.   Sam Wilson (00:20:15) - Do you feel like you work harder now or did you work harder in the earlier stages of your business?   Chris Rawley (00:20:21) - That's a great question. I'd say the amount of work is about the same. It's what we spend our time on is different. So there was a lot of head scratching early on and trying to figure out what we didn't know. We've learned those lessons. We built a network of contacts and providers that now we spend more of our time, like you said, just dealing out lots of communications. We're constantly on calls. I'm still the chief sales officer.   Chris Rawley (00:20:49) - I get on almost every single sales call when a deal gets to the stage where we think it's viable, you know, I'll get on that call after it's kind of going through the initial processes. And so it's and then once we get the deals up and running, of course there's that the management piece, which is investor communications and tax documents and distributions and all those sorts of things. And we get fortunately we've got all the pieces in place to do that.   Sam Wilson (00:21:17) - That's cool. I'm sorry. Go ahead.   Chris Rawley (00:21:20) - Yeah. And that wasn't easy to get all in place. And it's not necessarily always easy to execute and you're always kind of dealing with the, you know, the one investor that needs a little bit of extra attention. And that's just the reality of of being in the world that we're in.   Sam Wilson (00:21:37) - It really is. Yeah. There's there is, there is that there's always the one investor that needs a little bit more, which is, okay, it's all right. There's also there's also lots of investors that you know that I'm sure you have these too, where it's, you know, they require almost no attention.   Sam Wilson (00:21:53) - And so it probably all washes there in the end. When you review the last, say, 5 or 6 years, if you could do one thing to have either made the process easier or maybe made a mistake that you could have otherwise avoided, anything come to mind on those fronts?   Chris Rawley (00:22:11) - Yeah, that's really hard because I we people take pain to learn, right? Austin always says this is like the best way to learn is through pain. And so think a lot of the things. That we have in place now. And, you know, a couple of deals that have gone bad and things like that we wouldn't have learned unless we experienced them. So although I have no regrets. Yeah, sure, there's deals we wouldn't have done or, you know, we would have changed something or automated processes sooner or later. But we didn't know what we didn't know. And, you know, we built very deliberately our processes and our team and our systems and grown very deliberately. We tried not intentionally not to grow too fast by raising a lot of money as a company or some of our competitors did that and, you know, haven't ever had to lay anybody off having ever, um, you know, been involved in lawsuits and, you know, any kind of issues, negative issues like that.   Chris Rawley (00:23:08) - So we're, you know, we're happy and we're going to continue to move very deliberately and fund as many farms and ranches as we can.   Sam Wilson (00:23:14) - Right? I love it. I love that word. Deliberate. That is, um, that's something we think about a lot here on our side of things where it's like, hey, you know, we have unlimited opportunity, but do we want or are we prepared to take that on right now? Like I think I think you should be as much afraid of too much growth, too fast as you should be a failure, because I think they can both lead to the same place, which is.   Chris Rawley (00:23:42) - That's very, very true. You can you can fail. You can grow hard and fast and you can fail hard and fast. And it's it's you don't want to be there.   Sam Wilson (00:23:50) - You don't want to be there. Yep. Deliberate. That's a great word here for today. Chris, thank you again for coming back on the show. It's been a pleasure to hear just where you guys have gone and almost, again, almost three years since the last time you and I got to chat.   Sam Wilson (00:24:04) - If our listeners want to get in touch with you or learn more about you guys, what is the best way to do that?   Chris Rawley (00:24:10) - Yeah, the best way is just harvest returns. Of course, we got social media and all the different platforms, but harvest returns, dot com.   Sam Wilson (00:24:17) - Harvest returns.com will make sure we include that there in the show notes. Chris thank you again for coming on. I certainly appreciate it.   Chris Rawley (00:24:23) - My pleasure Sam. Thanks. Hey, thanks.   Sam Wilson (00:24:25) - For listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.  

Today's guest is Chris Prefontaine.    Chris is the four-time best-selling author of Real Estate on Your Terms, The New Rules of Real Estate Investing, and Sell With Authority for Real Estate Investors. He's also founder of the Wicked Smart companies and host of the Smart Real Estate Coach Podcast. Chris has been in real estate for over 31 years. His experience ranges from constructing new homes in the 1990s and owning a Realty Executive Franchise to running his own investments (commercial & residential) and coaching clients throughout North America.   Show summary:    In this podcast episode, Chris Prefontaine shares his experience and insights in the real estate industry. He discusses the importance of being able to pivot creatively to find deals, reflects on his early days building homes on spot lots, and how he shifted his strategy after the 2008 crisis. Chris emphasizes the significance of surrounding oneself with experienced individuals and shares his approach to deal structuring, owner financing, and master lease purchase. He also talks about the potential of owner financing across various asset classes and introduces his book, "Real Estate on Your Terms." -------------------------------------------------------------- Intro [00:00:00] 2008 crash [00:01:01] Deal flow [00:08:56] Structuring deals [00:10:39] Seller motivation [00:12:10] The history of owner financing [00:16:58] The versatility of owner financing [00:17:27] The appeal of owner financing for higher-end assets [00:19:04] -------------------------------------------------------------- Connect with Chris:  Book request: https://wickedsmartbooks.com/sam1/ Email: chris@smartrealestatecoach.com    Connect with Sam: I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/ Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com   SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f -------------------------------------------------------------- Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below: Chris Prefontaine (00:00:00) - So there are always going to be people out there. There's a third of the properties in the United States, roughly, that are free and clear. That is a great pond to fish in. Always don't care what the market is. And I know this, the market can go up, down, sideways. Doesn't matter. You will always, always have enough deal to come across during any market as long as you know how to pivot creatively. And that's what we do.   Sam Wilson (00:00:20) - Welcome to the How to scale commercial real estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big. Chris Prefontaine is a four time best selling author. He's also founder of the Wicked Smart Companies and host of the Smart Real Estate Coach Podcast. He's been in real estate for over 31 years. Chris, welcome to the show.   Chris Prefontaine (00:00:47) - Thanks, Sam. Glad to be here. Hope we can impart some some nuggets here while we chat.   Sam Wilson (00:00:51) - Absolutely. I'm looking forward to it.   Sam Wilson (00:00:52) - Chris There are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90s or less. Can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there?   Chris Prefontaine (00:01:01) - Um, started in 1991 by building homes on spot lots where the owner would wait for the money, the vendors would wait for the money. So we were doing creative way back then in my 20s. Um, we, um, we pivoted big time after the 2008 crash and started saying, okay, no more signing on bank loans, no more pledging cash. We buy everything today. Owner financing subject to existing financing. All these projects, you can do any asset class with any one of those. And we teach that not only we do it ourselves, we teach that all around North America.   Sam Wilson (00:01:33) - That is wild. So I've never heard the term spot lot, forgive me, 800 and some odd episodes and ten years in the business. I don't even know what that is. Can you define that?   Chris Prefontaine (00:01:41) - Spot lots.   Chris Prefontaine (00:01:42) - Yeah. Meaning sort of infill lots. Where you come in a situation, there might be one lot left or, you know, someone has a lot next to their house they can subdivide. We did that and I was naive enough in my early 20s to go to the owners and say, Look, we're going to build a house and go to the vendors and say we're going to build a house. But you guys all get paid when it closes in like four months. And they all said, yes, the market was tough then, but I look back and say, Wow, I don't know if I'd ask that now, but we did it. We did like 100 homes.   Sam Wilson (00:02:05) - That's crazy. Yeah, I'm not even sure I would have the courage to to look at a contractor in the eye and say, Hey, buddy, listen, four months from now, you'll get paid.   Chris Prefontaine (00:02:14) - But I guess it's so different. I think back. I remember. I remember I had a eyeball with the lumber supplier and he chuckled.   Chris Prefontaine (00:02:20) - But then he did it. So, you know, it's funny.   Sam Wilson (00:02:22) - That's wild. Okay, so you work that strategy. I'm sure there's a lot of other things from 1991 through 2008. And it sounds like in your story there, there was potentially some pain throughout the zero eight crisis such that it made you really pivot into your strategy that you're employing now.   Chris Prefontaine (00:02:40) - Yeah, pain would be an understatement. Mentally, physically, you know, financially, big time. I had about 20 some odd properties at that time. I, I bought conventionally or with a loan and or with investor money. So I was on every single property personally guaranteed and so realized the hard way what that means. Yes, I had good credit so I did that but learned the hard way what that means when the market takes a dip one third to two thirds and some of my projects. And so that was a miserable four years from zero eight Feb till 12 Feb It was a miserable four years and we worked it out. We pivoted in 12 and said, okay, got my legs again, get out of my head and said, I can do this still after 18 years I can do this.   Chris Prefontaine (00:03:21) - And we pivoted and created the smart real estate coach and our own deals and we just do not do not sign personal loans anymore. And it's a little bit different going to sleep at night knowing that.   Sam Wilson (00:03:32) - I can only imagine four years is a long workout. I mean, that's a long time to be under that amount of stress. What were some of the things? You know, looking back on it, you'd say, hey, you know, this is how how would your approach change? Were you to be in that position again?   Chris Prefontaine (00:03:52) - I'd say exactly, because it was all mental. It was me beating on myself saying, what the heck? And despite it being a national crisis, I blamed it on me. Right? My stuff. So I will tell you, in hindsight, I would have done what I did about at the three and a half year point, which was go find 2 or 3 people that have been through it and then some over the years and have more experience in the market than I do.   Chris Prefontaine (00:04:14) - So people 15, 20 years older than me, that was super successful. I did that. But it took me too long to do that and got in my own head. And when I did that, one of them literally chuckled at me. Sam. He chuckled at me and said, Okay, here's all things I've been through, and he's listed a litany of things. And then it made me seem like, okay, it's no big deal, but wish I did it earlier. Like I'm talking like six months in. Go. Okay, help me tell me how to get through this. But but so it's really key because success leaves clues, right? You and I know that. So there is someone out there that went through what you went through. I don't care what it is. Personal business, financial, this summit. So you got to seek them out earlier.   Sam Wilson (00:04:48) - I like that a lot. That's that's really, really smart. It sounds like, um, you know, finding those people that were ahead of you are the ones that kind of, like you said, help you get out of your own own head on that.   Sam Wilson (00:04:59) - Like, that's, that's fantastic. I mean, that's so true. I think for any of us, though, I mean, it's the same reason we're in mastermind, the same surround ourselves hopefully with people smarter than us.   Chris Prefontaine (00:05:09) - Right on.   Sam Wilson (00:05:09) - Yeah, but I like that. So you think you could have shortened that four year period to 6 to 12 months maybe?   Chris Prefontaine (00:05:16) - Yeah. In hindsight, the mental game is so crazy, right? I just. I just was in the cycle and then you. And then you start attracting more of it. And that sounds kind of fufu, I know, for some people, but I'm telling you it's real. And so, yeah, I could have done a lot more quickly.   Sam Wilson (00:05:29) - Yeah, man. No, it absolutely is. Yeah. I always say that being inside my head by myself is like a bad neighborhood. It's not somewhere you want to be alone. It.   Chris Prefontaine (00:05:38) - That's a good one. I like that.   Sam Wilson (00:05:39) - Absolutely. So, no, I like that.   Sam Wilson (00:05:41) - That's fantastic. So you pivot in 2012, you say, all right, look, you know, we've got to do things differently. You've no longer guaranteeing loans. You're no longer signing on stuff. How have you been able to employ this strategy over the last now, I guess, 11 years? Yeah, that's that's basic math. The last 11 years, I mean, we've had a bull run in the market. We've had incredible growth across all sectors. My. Argument, which you're going to prove me wrong. But would it be that man? You know. As things get better, people aren't looking to exit properties commercially, residentially, whatever it is on terms. Tell me why I'm wrong.   Chris Prefontaine (00:06:18) - Yeah, I always like using specific examples, so it's not theory. I am standing in my building, my commercial building right now. It's a mixed use building and I bought this in 18 and I bought it on owner financing. It was free and clear. That's who we that's who we target.   Chris Prefontaine (00:06:32) - That's our avatar free and clear properties. So that on 99% of the deals, I can structure principle only payments as long as I get them to their number and as long as I get the right term. Now, why did he do it? To answer your question, he did it for personal tax planning and personal estate planning reasons only. He had a four by eight sign saying My firm is building me and realtors coming in saying I got an offer for I got a buyer for. And he kept saying, No, no, no, I want in need owner financing. So there are always going to be people out there. There's a third of the properties in the United States roughly, that are free and clear. That is a great pond to fish in. Always don't care what the market is. And I know this, the market can go up, down, sideways. Doesn't matter. You will always, always have enough deal to come across during any market as long as you know how to pivot creatively.   Chris Prefontaine (00:07:17) - And that's what we do. And I just give you one example, but that's a great example.   Sam Wilson (00:07:20) - It's a great example. I mean, but in this particular case, you had a seller that was already looking for what it is that you do. How does this conversation shift when you have a seller that is on the, you know, the other side of the equation where they're like, hey, look, I only want. A sale. Cash out. I'm going. I'm done. How do you. How do you warm up that conversation with the seller such that it becomes an option they'll consider?   Chris Prefontaine (00:07:48) - Yeah. So my conversation sounds like this. If you said that to me as a seller, I just have one question that'll tell me if need to go further or not, and I'm just open with them and I might not be there by the question is great. 99% of the sellers I buy from want what you just described. Full price, close now conventional. Everything's simple. However, fracture closings are at like 20% right now.   Chris Prefontaine (00:08:08) - Things have fallen apart. So if it doesn't sell and if you don't get your price at the time you want, what's your backup? And that usually provokes a further conversation down the road. So I give them their space, let them go try it if they need their cash up front. And they absolutely know that and they need the equity out to go buy a house for the family or a building for whatever, they absolutely can't pivot. I'm not the buyer. They need the cash now. People need to be able to wait. That's why I like free and clear, because the financially typically well off.   Sam Wilson (00:08:35) - Right, right. Right.   Chris Prefontaine (00:08:36) - Yeah, that's.   Sam Wilson (00:08:37) - True. Yeah. If you're if you're if you're owning commercial properties, residential properties, whatever it is and it's free and clear, then you've made some good decisions along the way and you're not you're, they're not actively looking to cash out and harvest that equity. Maybe, you know, like somebody that's levered to the hilt. So that's, that's really, really cool.   Sam Wilson (00:08:56) - Have you seen have you seen any deal flow increase, decrease? Has it been steady? What's what's that been like and what's kind of the sentiment towards. Yeah.   Chris Prefontaine (00:09:07) - Super applicable question. So here's what happened. I'll go back to like pre Covid and give you the gist. Yeah. So because all this means is what pond do you fish in? I don't care if you look whatever asset you're looking for. Are you fishing in the for sale by owner fishing expired. You're fishing in a niche list like free and clear. Just you just have to pivot where you're fishing. Here's why I say that. Beginning of 20 people panicked. I scream to my community, the wicked smart community. No, no, no. This is when you doubled down. They need a guide. Sure enough, our properties tripled what we were taking in, but that only lasted three months. Then the market got hot, right? A four months. Whatever it was. So then everything was selling like hotcakes. So was it a good pond to fish in for sale by owner in any asset class? No.   Chris Prefontaine (00:09:44) - That was you had to do a lot of calls to get the same lead. And so you just have to bop. And we've with where you're fishing our properties steadied out then meaning instead of getting 25 a month in the community, you probably got 10 or 12. And then it's now the market slowly but surely has been going right back up with some strong demand from the expired market. Right. Because things aren't selling like they used to. The media is screaming. I think they're incorrect, but they're screaming, panicked, everybody. And that's causing sellers to come looking for us. So it's going to do the ebb and flow. To your point, it's just a matter of you knowing where to fish, knowing your metrics, because that's what we teach, but also knowing like the skills to structure deals and creative real estate will put you through any market. That's it. You can pivot and pivot and deal after a deal. After a deal.   Sam Wilson (00:10:24) - What what, what are what are some things that you're really with? People that work with you? What are some ways you're structuring deals and or, you know, insisting, hey, this is the right way to structure a deal? And then maybe what are some pitfalls as well?   Chris Prefontaine (00:10:39) - Yeah.   Chris Prefontaine (00:10:39) - So the free and clear on the financing I love I also love the sub two meaning if you knew listening to this just subject to the existing loan balance. I just one of my students just told me about a large commercial building where the gentleman actually couldn't wait to sell it, subject to his existing loan, meaning that loan stays in their name right until such time it's cashed out. And then there was a owner financing component for his equity. So that's kind of a quasi owner financing sub two combo. I love those because let's think about it. What were the interest rates for the last year or so? Super low, right? And now we're grabbing buildings in residential that have these low interest rates. You can't get better than that. Even if you went and did it for yourself, right? You have one property or you have one house or whatever, and you're getting it for two and a 3:45 and three quarter rate. Not bad. That's what we're seeing. It's crazy.   Sam Wilson (00:11:29) - That's free money. I mean, it's it's free money.   Sam Wilson (00:11:32) - And that's a that's a I know there's gonna be a left turn here, but that's something I've been trying to convince my own mother of, who is now in her late 70s. And it's like, don't pay off your home. You have a fixed mortgage at like 2.5%.   Chris Prefontaine (00:11:45) - It's crazy, isn't it?   Sam Wilson (00:11:46) - 30 years?   Chris Prefontaine (00:11:47) - I don't think we'll see it. I really don't.   Sam Wilson (00:11:48) - Know. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And yeah, those are those are those are amazing deals to find. Okay. So we've talked a little bit about the way you like to structure them and that was a unique structure, a sub two plus owner financing on the on the equity side of it. Like how what's a seller's motivation even in a situation like that? Why? Yeah.   Chris Prefontaine (00:12:10) - This is also a great timing question that you hit. You're hitting some high points. Here's why because I wasn't seeing those before. I was seeing people that want to sell. They're free and clear pretty much while often have time. People that are selling us sub to and willing to keep their name on the loan are usually hurting financially now in the community.   Chris Prefontaine (00:12:26) - Rick in New Hampshire comes to mind. His last two deals, six figure deals for him. They were both sub two with a component of owner financing. And what I'm seeing is to answer your question. People. They either have two properties they're getting up in age or they have two properties or more, and they are a little afraid with the media screaming. The media is helping us because again, think they're incorrect. But that's what's going on now. And you know what he prospects he specifically is prospecting now this particular student owners of two or more properties. And so it's not surprising me now in hindsight that he's finding that because they just want to unload some they want top dollar, but they can give us a term. And if on the equity piece we're making no payments or interest till the end or we're making principal only payments, that's a Great recession. Hedge It's a great play. It's a great leverage play. I love it.   Sam Wilson (00:13:13) - Absolutely. Any I mean, a savvy seller, again, I'm giving a counterargument, but a good savvy seller would say, hey, look, Chris, you know, I love the deal.   Sam Wilson (00:13:23) - Maybe I do owner financing on the equity portion. Let's even structure, you know, you can take it sub two, but I'm going to need personal guarantees. I'm going to need something that says you got skin in this game and you're going to perform. How do you handle that conversation?   Chris Prefontaine (00:13:38) - I've gotten it literally more so when I first got back in, but literally maybe 3 or 4 times where the attorney hits me or hits my attorney. Right. And I just tell him it's not for me, quite frankly. And and I think it's usually a confidence issue. I don't think I know as I listen to some of my students calls, if they're getting it, they're usually coming across pretty weak on the phone. It's not a negative. It's just not his experience. So I don't get any more just from a conference standpoint. And if I do those first few times I bought it was a multi coincidentally, and I ended up buying that property because my attorney said they don't do it. You have the security.   Chris Prefontaine (00:14:09) - You're telling me it's low loan to value. They don't do it. And so they came back. Now that one took a year and there was a big residential properties like 14 acres, almost a million bucks. And that one took a year. He kept wanting to do it with me, and he went through two attorneys who said, No, no, no, you can't do that. They got a sign. Okay, let me know. So if they end up selling, good for them. But if they don't, they're going to come back. So we just don't sign personally.   Sam Wilson (00:14:29) - What what would you say is the average cycle or average? You mentioned a year there. So what is the average time it takes to get deals like this the way you're structuring them closed?   Chris Prefontaine (00:14:41) - Good question. I would go anywhere from 60 days to a year, Sam, because like this building when I talked to him. Now, granted, to your point, he was looking for it right and in cold calm.   Chris Prefontaine (00:14:52) - But this took probably we we actually we live on an island so we happen to use the same law firm. So this was like a ten minute conversation. He loved my book. He read it. He's like a math guy. He's like, this is great. And they structure a deal. Like this whole thing took maybe a week. So usually it's a couple months to a year. Now, what dictates that? In my opinion, if they're an expired property, they're on with a commercial or residential agent, they're usually more quickly converting. If they're a for sale by owner, they it takes follow up. Why are they a for sale by owner they think they can sell, right? So when they realize they can't like 98% of them don't, then then they come to reality. They either go to an agent or call us. Right? So that does take longer. Those are follow up calls always. Yeah.   Sam Wilson (00:15:33) - So let's talk about that on on the finding deals side of things. What's what's kind of the strategy behind this? Is there a particular program you use Is there I know you mentioned expired, you mentioned free and clear.   Sam Wilson (00:15:46) - I mean, obviously you can there's data sets where you can pull down that data. But what's the what's the process we have?   Chris Prefontaine (00:15:53) - We do have a lead source that that feeds us. Those categories I'm mentioning to you. And then a database. You know, you and I know you could pull a list of literally anything, but I love like the multiple properties or Love Free and clear out of state, you know, combos like that, That's where we get them. Then what happens though, we have a virtual assistant call first. So our students, unless they want to do more on their own to increase their lead flow, if that's if that's their business plan, most of them are starting with a virtual assistant calling so that the cream rises. Hey. Yeah. Have him give me a call. Yeah, I'm open to that. Then we'll call those leads. They're a lot stronger. I keep those in my desk at any one time. Like the virtual assistant emails them to me, and I call those only unless I'm in a mode where I want to open up a new list and experiment myself.   Sam Wilson (00:16:36) - Right, Right. No, that that makes a heck of a lot of sense. We've covered subject two, We've covered owner finance. We've covered the ways that you guys are finding leads. I want to know, and you mentioned commercial, which obviously this show is 100% about commercial real estate. Are there asset classes? Is there are there any asset classes where you're not seeing transactions like this occur?   Chris Prefontaine (00:16:58) - Uh, not me personally. No. I think here's something interesting. I do have some people say either on a show or even sellers say, Oh, I've never heard of that. Okay, really? Okay. So if you read the new book by Anderson Cooper, I read it because his family had a mansion on Bellevue Ave here in Newport, Rhode Island. So I said that would be interesting. In the book, he talks about his family buying owner financing and he called it master lease purchase on these large buildings in New York City in the 1600s before banking like so it's been around forever. Sure.   Chris Prefontaine (00:17:27) - All we did is wrap a bow around it and assistant around it and support around it so that students don't go. They go in the real world. We help them get deals done. We revenue share and we're in the trenches. But other than that, it's been around forever. You can do any asset class, planes, boats, cars, any asset class can be done the way we just talked about, right?   Sam Wilson (00:17:43) - Yeah, I've actually thought about that quite a bit. Is is that there. And I've done a not a ton but a fair share of owner finance and subject to deals probably obviously nowhere near the scale that you have but I've often thought about that. I'm like, my gosh, like the potential to do this across anything like you said, planes, boats, cars, homes, any of those things exist because there's always a motivated seller somewhere that needs to get out. I think the trick the trick is finding and tell me if I'm wrong here, but the trick is finding the right data set or the right pond in which to fish.   Chris Prefontaine (00:18:19) - Is that sound about Once you're in any pond, what do we really doing? Because people say to me, Oh, how do you convince them? Never What? Never convince? What I do is listen for the motivation. What would you do if it didn't sell right? Bingo. You get you get the answer. Then if you can solve for that, good. You're gonna have a deal. If you can't tell them I'm not your buyer. So it's that simple. And just to get people's mindset, the asset class in the price doesn't matter. Sam Right. Sure was a house. I bought a house here in Newport a little while ago. This was back before the crash, and the guy in front of me didn't know it right away, bought that house owner financing. He needed to do that because he's going through a divorce. You're talking about several million dollar property. He needed to do it because going through divorce and then eventually he put financing on it. But my point is, there's no class or price range that's off limits.   Chris Prefontaine (00:19:04) - In fact, I would argue that the higher end buildings in residential are more apt to do it. They understand it, the more savvy. It's a very easy conversation.   Sam Wilson (00:19:13) - That's interesting. That's that's that's a I think that's that's a brilliant point. The higher end assets, the more expensive they are. Probably more likely, which is probably true. I mean, we see that in multifamily, you know, loan assumptions. Yeah, same kind of basic idea. Obviously, a loan assumption in a multifamily property is maybe very or is structured very differently than a subject to would be. But you know, in the end, same basic idea somebody else has.   Chris Prefontaine (00:19:38) - And I'd be shocked, to your point, if you could run across an investor, say like you or I, that has bought and sold and gone through challenges that loves a bank, that prefers to use a bank before. So that's why they're open. A lot of people aren't bankable or don't want to deal with banks, right?   Sam Wilson (00:19:54) - Right. Oh, absolutely.   Sam Wilson (00:19:56) - Absolutely. No, I'm in the I'm in the it's it's funny, you mentioned that. Thanks for bringing up the pain here this week. It's I'm waiting like like nail biting on in a pre a delayed appraisal for a closing that's supposed to happen Friday on a commercial building and it's like. Oh, this process sucks. Okay. So, yeah, I love I love what you're doing. Let's talk a little bit about your book here. I know you have an offer here for our listeners. I think it's very, very generous of you. Tell us about the title of your book, what it's About, and how they might get a copy of that.   Chris Prefontaine (00:20:28) - Sure. It's real estate on your terms. It was written in 17 best seller. Then we were revising it right at the end of 19, beginning of 20, and Covid hit us. So we said, okay, let's take advantage of this, this opportunity here and update it appropriately. So we did. So it's very, very up to date right through like 2021, I think it came out.   Chris Prefontaine (00:20:47) - And that's going to show a through kind of what you and I talked about, but a little bit more granular on how you can buy any asset class without using a cash credit or gobs of cash or or your credit or investors if you don't choose to do that. Because I do have people that read a book go, You know what resonated, Chris don't want to go raise money like some people just don't want to do that, right? So it's going to teach you how to do that. We do have a free copy and it's not one of those offers, as I told you off air that says, you know, free copy and then you got to put it into credit card free shipping. Right. We are going to ship it from this building and you'll get that and you might get another book in there as well. Just go to wicked smart books with wicked smart books, dot com, forward slash Sam and then the number one numeric number one.   Sam Wilson (00:21:26) - Awesome wicked smart books.com/sam number one and you can get a copy of real estate on your terms.   Sam Wilson (00:21:33) - That's really generous of you guys to share that with us and I think it's extra cool. And I mentioned this off air, but extra cool that you guys ship a hard copy book still out to people. It's not just the oh, what's the what was the term used. Yeah it's not just a PDF download they called that there was a name, somebody who's a term for their day that's like, oh they call it a snooze fest. They're like, Oh, thanks for the PDF download. There's a total snooze fest. So actually getting a real book in the mail I think is is really, really cool. Chris I've enjoyed having you here on the show today. We've covered all sorts of really fun things. I loved hearing your story of just how you've transitioned from 1991 all the way here to 2023 and the wealth of experience that you have. I love what you're doing in the marketplace. Yeah, it's talked about a lot, but I think you guys bring a new and exciting kind of angle to the way that these assets are taken down and just, you know, learning how to do open finance subject to even on larger commercial projects is a very exciting and enticing discussion.   Sam Wilson (00:22:31) - So thank you for that. If our listeners want to get in touch with you outside of getting a copy of the book and or your company, what is the best way to do that?   Chris Prefontaine (00:22:37) - You can just email me Chris Chris at smart real estate coach. Com. Just make sure they mention your show because I don't always give that out.   Sam Wilson (00:22:44) - Got it. Chris at smart real estate coach.com mentioned the Hello skill commercial real estate podcast. Chris thank you again for coming today I do appreciate it. Hey thanks for listening to the How to scale Commercial real Estate podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.  

Chris Farris, Cloud Security Nerd at PrimeHarbor Technologies, LLC, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss his new project, breaches.cloud, and why he feels having a centralized location for cloud security breach information is so important. Corey and Chris also discuss what it means to dive into entrepreneurship, including both the benefits of not having to work within a corporate structure and the challenges that come with running your own business. Chris also reveals what led him to start breaches.cloud, and what he's learned about some of the biggest cloud security breaches so far. About ChrisChris Farris is a highly experienced IT professional with a career spanning over 25 years. During this time, he has focused on various areas, including Linux, networking, and security. For the past eight years, he has been deeply involved in public-cloud and public-cloud security in media and entertainment, leveraging his expertise to build and evolve multiple cloud security programs.Chris is passionate about enabling the broader security team's objectives of secure design, incident response, and vulnerability management. He has developed cloud security standards and baselines to provide risk-based guidance to development and operations teams. As a practitioner, he has architected and implemented numerous serverless and traditional cloud applications, focusing on deployment, security, operations, and financial modeling.He is one of the organizers of the fwd:cloudsec conference and presented at various AWS conferences and BSides events. Chris shares his insights on security and technology on social media platforms like Twitter, Mastodon and his website https://www.chrisfarris.com.Links Referenced: fwd:cloudsec: https://fwdcloudsec.org/ breaches.cloud: https://breaches.cloud Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcfarris Company Site: https://www.primeharbor.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. My returning guest today is Chris Farris, now at PrimeHarbor, which is his own consultancy. Chris, welcome back. Last time we spoke, you were a Turbot, and now you've decided to go independent because you don't like sleep anymore.Chris: Yeah, I don't like sleep.Corey: [laugh]. It's one of those things where when I went independent, at least in my case, everyone thought that it was, oh, I have this grand vision of what the world could be and how I could look at these things, and that's going to just be great and awesome and everyone's going to just be a better world for it. In my case, it was, no, just there was quite literally nothing else for me to do that didn't feel like an exact reframing of what I'd already been doing for years. I'm a terrible employee and setting out on my own was important. It was the only way I found that I could wind up getting to a place of not worrying about getting fired all the time because that was my particular skill set. And I look back at it now, almost seven years in, and it's one of those things where if I had known then what I know now, I never would have started.Chris: Well, that was encouraging. Thank you [laugh].Corey: Oh, of course. And in sincerity, it's not one of those things where there's any one thing that stops you, but it's the, a lot of people get into the independent consulting dance because they want to do a thing and they're very good at that thing and they love that thing. The problem is, when you're independent, and at least starting out, I was spending over 70% of my time on things that were not billable, which included things like go and find new clients, go and talk to existing clients, the freaking accounting. One of the first hires I made was a fractional CFO, which changed my life. Up until that, my business partner and I were more or less dead reckoning of looking at the bank account and how much money is in there to determine if we could afford things. That's a very unsophisticated way of navigating. It's like driving by braille.Chris: Yeah, I think I went into it mostly as a way to define my professional identity outside of my W-2 employer. I had built cloud security programs for two major media companies and felt like that was my identity: I was the cloud security person for these companies. And so, I was like, ehh, why don't I just define myself as myself, rather than define myself as being part of a company that, in the media space, they are getting overwhelmed by change, and job security, job satisfaction, wasn't really something that I could count on.Corey: One of the weird things that I found—it's counterintuitive—is that when you're independent, you have gotten to a point where you have hit a point of sustainability, where you're not doing the oh, I'm just going to go work for 40 billable hours a week for a client. It's just like being an employee without a bunch of protections and extra steps. That doesn't work super well. But now, at the point where I'm at where the largest client we have is a single-digit percentage of revenue, I can't get fired anymore, without having a whole bunch of people suddenly turn on me because I've done something monstrous, in which case, I probably deserve not to have business anymore, or there's something systemic in the macro environment, which given that I do the media side and I do the cost-cutting side, I work on the way up, I work on the way down, I'm questioning what that looks like in a scenario that doesn't involve me hunting for food. But it's counterintuitive to people who have been employees their whole life, like I was, where, oh, it's risky and dangerous to go out on your own.Chris: It's risky and dangerous to be, you know, tied to a single, yeah, W-2 paycheck. So.Corey: Yeah. The question I'd like to ask is, how many people need to be really pissed off before you have one of those conversations with HR that doesn't involve giving you a cup of coffee? That's the tell: when you don't get coffee, it's a bad conversation.Chris: Actually, that you haven't seen [unintelligible 00:04:25] coffee these days. You don't want the cup of coffee, you know. That's—Corey: Even when they don't give you the crappy percolator navy coffee, like, midnight hobo diner style, it's still going to be a bad meeting because [unintelligible 00:04:37] pretend the coffee's palatable.Chris: Perhaps, yes. I like not having to deal with my own HR department. And I do agree that yeah, getting out of the W-2 space allows me to work on side projects that interests me or, you know, volunteer to do things like continuing the fwd:cloudsec, developing breaches.cloud, et cetera.Corey: I'll never forget, one of my last jobs I had a boss who walked past and saw me looking at Reddit and asked me if that was really the best use of my time. At first—it was in, I think, the sysadmin forum at the time, so yes, it was very much the best use of my time for the problem I was focusing on, but also, even if it wasn't, I spent an inordinate amount of time on social media, just telling stories and building audiences, on some level. That's the weird thing is that what counts as work versus what doesn't count as work gets very squishy when you're doing your own marketing.Chris: True. And even when I was a W-2 employee, I spent a lot of time on Twitter because Twitter was an intel source for us. It was like, “Hey, who's talking about the latest cloud security misconfigurations? Who's talking about the latest data breach? What is Mandiant tweeting about?” It was, you know—I consider it part of my job to be on Twitter and watching things.Corey: Oh, people ask me that. “So, you're on Twitter an awful lot. Don't you have a newsletter to write?” Like, yeah, where do you think that content comes from, buddy?Chris: Exactly. Twitter and Mastodon. And Reddit now.Corey: There's a whole argument to be had about where to find various things. For me at least, because I'm only security adjacent, I was always trying to report the news that other people had, not make the news myself.Chris: You don't want to be the one making the news in security.Corey: Speaking of, I'd like to talk a bit about what you just alluded to breaches.cloud. I don't think I've seen that come across my desk yet, which tells me that it has not been making a big splash just yet.Chris: I haven't been really announcing it; it got published the other night and so basically, yeah, is this is sort of a inaugural marketing push for breaches.cloud. So, what we're looking to do is document all the public cloud security breaches, what happened, why, and more importantly, what the companies did or didn't do that led to the security incident or the security breach.Corey: How are you slicing the difference between broad versus deep? And what I mean by that is, there are some companies where there are indictments and massive deep dives into everything that happens with timelines and blows-by-blows, and other times you wind up with the email that shows up one day of, “Security is very important to us. Now, listen to how we completely dropped the ball on it.” And it just makes the biggest description that they can get away with of what happened. Occasionally, you find out oh, it was an open S3 buckets, or they'll allude to something that sounds like it. Does that count for inclusion? Does it not? How do you make those editorial decisions?Chris: So, we haven't yet built a page around just all of the recipients of the Bucket Negligence Award. We're looking at the specific ones where there's been something that's happened that's usually involving IAM credentials—oftentimes involving IAM credentials found in GitHub—and what led to that. So, in a lot of cases, if there's a detailed company postmortem that they send their customers that said, “Hey, we goofed up, but complete transparency—” and then they hit all the bullet points of how they goofed up. Or in the case of certain others, like Uber, “Hey, we have court transcripts that we can go to,” or, “We have federal indictments,” or, “We have court transcripts, and federal indictments and FTC civil actions.” And so, we go through those trying to suss out what the company did or did not do that led to the breach. And really, the goal here is to be able to articulate as security practitioners, hey, don't attach S3 full access to this role on EC2. That's what got Capital One in trouble.Corey: I have a lot of sympathy for the Capital One breach and I wish they would talk about it more than they do, for obvious reasons, just because it was not, someone showed up and made a very obvious dumb decision, like, “Oh, that was what that giant red screaming thing in the S3 console means.” It was a series of small misconfigurations that led to another one, to another one, to another one, and eventually gets to a point where a sophisticated attacker was able to chain them all together. And yes, it's bad, yes, they're a bank and the rest, but I look at that and it's—that's the sort of exploit that you look at and it's okay, I see it. I absolutely see it. Someone was very clever, and a bunch of small things that didn't rise to the obvious. But they got dragged and castigated as if they basically had a four-character password that they'd left on the back of the laptop on a Post-It note in an airport lounge when their CEO was traveling. Which is not the case.Chris: Or all of the highlighting the fact that Paige Thompson was a former Amazon employee, making it seem like it was her insider abilities that lead to the incident, rather than she just knew that, hey, there's a metadata service and it gives me creds if I ask it.Corey: Right. That drove me nuts. There was no maleficence as an employee. And to be very direct, from what I understand of internal AWS controls, had there been, it would have been audited, flagged, caught, interdicted. I have talked to enough Amazonians that either a lot of them are lying to me very consistently despite not knowing each other, or they're being honest when they say that you can't get access to customer data using secret inside hacks.Chris: Yeah. I have reasonably good faith in AWS and their ability to not touch customer data in most scenarios. And I've had cases that I'm not allowed to talk about where Amazon has gone and accessed customer data, and the amount of rigmarole and questions and drilling that I got as a customer to have them do that was pretty intense and somewhat, actually, annoying.Corey: Oh, absolutely. And, on some level, it gets frustrating when it's a, look, this is a test account. I have nothing of sensitive value in here. I want the thing that isn't working to start working. Can I just give you a whole, like, admin-powered user account and we can move on past all of this? And their answer is always absolutely not.Chris: Yes. Or, “Hey, can you put this in our bucket?” “No, we can't even write to a public bucket or a bucket that, you know, they can share too.” So.Corey: An Amazonian had to mail me a hard drive because they could not send anything out of S3 to me.Chris: There you go.Corey: So, then I wound up uploading it back to S3 with, you know, a Snowball Edge because there's no overkill like massive overkill.Chris: No, the [snowmobile 00:11:29] would have been the massive overkill. But depending on where you live, you know, you might not have been able to get a permit to park the snowmobile there.Corey: They apparently require a loading dock. Same as with the outposts. I can't fake having one of those on my front porch yet.Chris: Ah. Well, there you go. I mean, you know it's the right height though, and you don't mind them ruining your lawn.Corey: So, help me understand. It makes sense to me at least, on some level, why having a central repository of all the various cloud security breaches in one place that's easy to reference is valuable. But what caused you to decide, you know, rather than saying it'd be nice to have, I'm going to go build that thing?Chris: Yeah, so it was actually right before the last time we spoke, Nicholas Sharp was indicted. And there was like, hey, this person was indicted for, you know, this cloud security case. And I'm like, that name rings a bell, but I don't remember who this person was. And so, I kind of realized that there's so many of these things happening now that I forget who is who. And so, when a new piece of news comes along, I'm like, where did this come from and how does this fit into what my knowledge of cloud security is and cloud security cases?So, I kind of realized that these are all running together in my mind. The Department of Justice only referenced ‘Company One,' so it wasn't clear to me if this even was a new cloud incident or one I already knew about. And so basically, I decided, okay, let's build this. Breaches.cloud was available; I think I kind of got the idea from hackingthe.cloud.And I had been working with some college students through the Collegiate Cyber Defense Competition, and I was like, “Hey, anybody want a spring research project that I will pay you for?” And so yeah, PrimeHarbor funded two college students to do quite a bit of the background research for me, I mentored them through, “Hey, so here's what this means,” and, “Hey, have we noticed that all of these seem to relate to credentials found in GitHub? You know, maybe there's a pattern here.” So, if you're not yet scanning for secrets in GitHub, I recommend you start scanning for secrets in your GitHub, private and public repos.Corey: Also, it makes sense to look at the history. Because, oh, I committed a secret. I'm going to go ahead and revert that commit and push that. That solves the problem, right?Chris: No, no, it doesn't. Yes, apparently, you can force push and delete an entire commit, but you really want to use a tool that's going to go back through the commit history and dig through it because as we saw in the Uber incident, when—the second Uber incident, the one that led to the CSOs conviction—yeah, the two attackers, [unintelligible 00:14:09] stuffed a Uber employee's personal GitHub account that they were also using for Uber work, and yeah, then they dug through all the source code and dug through the commit histories until they found a set of keys, and that's what they used for the second Uber breach.Corey: Awful when that hits. It's one of those things where it's just… [sigh], one thing leads to another leads to another. And on some level, I'm kind of amazed by the forensics that happen around all of these things. With the counterpoint, it is so… freakishly difficult, I think, for lack of a better term, just to be able to say what happened with any degree of certainty, so I can't help but wonder in those dark nights when the creeping dread starts sinking in, how many things like this happen that we just never hear about because they don't know?Chris: Because they don't turn on CloudTrail. Probably a number of them. Once the data gets out and shows up on the dark web, then people start knocking on doors. You know, Troy Hunt's got a large collection of data breach stuff, and you know, when there's a data breach, people will send him, “Hey, I found these passwords on the dark web,” and he loads them into Have I Been Pwned, and you know, [laugh] then the CSO finds out. So yeah, there's probably a lot of this that happens in the quiet of night, but once it hits the dark web, I think that data starts becoming available and the victimized company finds out.Corey: I am profoundly cynical, in case that was unclear. So, I'm wondering, on some level, what is the likelihood or commonality, I suppose, of people who are fundamentally just viewing security breach response from a perspective of step one, make sure my resume is always up to date. Because we talk about these business continuity plans and these DR approaches, but very often it feels like step one, secure your own mask before assisting others, as they always say on the flight. Where does personal preservation come in? And how does that compare with company preservation?Chris: I think down at the [IaC 00:16:17] level, I don't know of anybody who has not gotten a job because they had Equifax on their resume back in, what, 2017, 2018, right? Yes, the CSO, the CEO, the CIO probably all lost their jobs. And you know, now they're scraping by book deals and speaking engagements.Corey: And these things are always, to be clear, nuanced. It's rare that this is always one person's fault. If you're a one-person company, okay, yeah, it's kind of your fault, let's be clear here, but there are controls and cost controls and audit trails—presumably—for all of these things, so it feels like that's a relatively easy thing to talk around, that it was a process failure, not that one person sucked. “Well, didn't you design and implement the process?” “Yes. But it turned out there were some holes in it and my team reported that those weren't there and it turned out that they were and, well, live and learn.” It feels like that's something that could be talked around.Chris: It's an investment failure. And again, you know, if we go back to Harry Truman, “The buck stops here,” you know, it's the CEO who decides that, hey, we're going to buy a corporate jet rather than buy a [SIIM 00:17:22]. And those are the choices that happen at the top level that define, do you have a capable security team, and more importantly, do you have a capable security culture such that your security team isn't the only ones who are actually thinking about security?Corey: That's, I guess, a fair question. I saw a take on Twitter—which is always a weird thing—or maybe was Blue-ski or somewhere else recently, that if you don't have a C-level executive responsible for security with security in their title, your company does not take security seriously. And I can see that past a certain point of scale, but as a one-person company, do you have a designated CSO?Chris: As a one-person company and as a security company, I sort of do have a designated CSO. I also have, you know, the person who's like, oh, I'm going to not put MFA on the root of this one thing because, while it's an experiment and it's a sandbox and whatever else, but I also know that that's not where I'm going to be putting any customer data, so I can measure and evaluate the risk from both a security perspective and a business existential investment perspective. When you get to the larger the organization, the more detached the CEO gets from the risk and what the company is building and what the company is doing, is where you get into trouble. And lots of companies have C-level somebody who's responsible for security. It's called the CSO, but oftentimes, they report four levels down, or even more, from the chief executive who is actually the one making the investment decisions.Corey: On some level, the oh yeah, that's my responsibility, too, but it feels like it's a trap that falls into. Like, well, the CTO is responsible for security at a publicly traded company. Like, well… that tends to not work anymore, past certain points of scale. Like when I started out independently, yes, I was the CSO. I was also the accountant. I was also the head of marketing. I was also the janitor. There's a bunch of different roles; we all wear different hats at different times.I'm also not a big fan of shaming that oh, yeah. This is a universal truth that applies to every company in existence. That's also where I think Twitter started to go wrong where you would get called out whenever making an observation or witticism or whatnot because there was some vertex case to which it did not necessarily apply and then people would ‘well, actually,' you to death.Chris: Yeah. Well, and I think there's a lot of us in the security community who are in the security one-percenters. We're, “Hey, yes, I'm a cloud security person on a 15-person cloud security team, and here's this awesome thing we're doing.” And then you've got most of the other companies in this country that are probably below the security poverty line. They may or may not have a dedicated security person, they certainly don't have a SIIM, they certainly don't have anybody who's monitoring their endpoints for malware attacks or anything else, and those are the companies that are getting hit all the time with, you know, a lot of this ransomware stuff. Healthcare is particularly vulnerable to that.Corey: When you take a look across the industry, what is it that you're doing now at PrimeHarbor that you feel has been an unmet need in the space? And let me be clear, as of this recording earlier today, we signed a contract with you for a project. There's more to come on that in the future. So, this is me asking you to tell a story, not challenging, like, what do you actually do? This is not a refund request, let's be very clear here. But what's the unmet need that you saw?Chris: I think the unmet need that I see is we don't talk to our builder community. And when I say builder, I mean, developers, DevOps, sysadmins, whatever. AWS likes the term builder and I think it works. We don't talk to our builder community about risk in a way that makes sense to them. So, we can say, “Hey, well, you know, we have this security policy and section 24601 says that all data's classifications must be signed off by the data custodian,” and a developer is going to look at you with their head tilted, and be like, “Huh? What? I just need to get the sprint done.”Whereas if we can articulate the risk—and one of the reasons I wanted to do breaches.cloud was to have that corpus of articulated risk around specific things—I can articulate the risk and say, “Hey, look, you know how easy it is for somebody to go in and enumerate an S3 bucket? And then once they've enumerated and guessed that S3 bucket exists, they list it, and oh, hey, look, now that they've listed it, they know all of the objects and all of the juicy PII that you just made public.” If you demonstrate that to them, then they're going to be like, “Oh, I'm going to add the extra story point to this story to go figure out how to do CloudFront origin access identity.” And now you've solved, you know, one more security thing. And you've done in a way that not just giving a man a fish or closing the bucket for them, but now they know, hey, I should always use origin access identity. This is why I need to do this particular thing.Corey: One of the challenges that I've seen in a variety of different sites that have tried to start cataloging different breaches and other collections of things happening in public is the discoverability or the library management problem. The most obvious example of this is, of course, the AWS console itself, where when it paginates things like, oh, there are 3000 things here, ten at a time, through various pages for it. Like, the marketplace is just a joke of discoverability. How do you wind up separating the stuff that is interesting and notable, rather than, well, this has about three sentences to it because that's all the company would say?Chris: So, I think even the ones where there's three sentences, we may actually go ahead and add it to the repo, or we may just hold it as a draft, so that we know later on when, “Hey, look, here's a federal indictment for Company Three. Oh, hey, look. Company Three was actually this breach announcement that we heard about three months ago,” or even three years ago. So like, you know, Chegg is a great example of, you know, one of those where, hey, you know, there was an incident, and they disclosed something, and then, years later, FTC comes along and starts banging them over the head. And in the FTC documentation, or in the FTC civil complaint, we got all sorts of useful data.Like, not only were they using root API keys, every contractor and employee there was sharing the root API keys, so when they had a contractor who left, it was too hard to change the keys and share it with everybody, so they just didn't do that. The contractor still had the keys, and that was one of the findings from the FTC against Chegg. Similar to that, Cisco didn't turn off contractors' access, and I think—this is pure speculation—I think the poor contractor one day logged into his Google Cloud Shell, cd'ed into a Terraform directory, ran ‘terraform destroy', and rather than destroying what he thought he was destroying, it had the access keys back to Cisco WebEx and took down 400 EC2 instances that made up all of WebEx. These are the kinds of things that I think it's worth capturing because the stories are going to come out over time.Corey: What have you seen in your, I guess, so far, a limited history of curating this that—I guess, first what is it you've learned that you've started seeing as far as patterns go, as far as what warrants inclusion, what doesn't, and of course, once you started launching and going a bit more public with it, I'm curious to hear what the response from companies is going to be.Chris: So, I want to be very careful and clear that if I'm going to name somebody, that we're sourcing something from the criminal justice system, that we're not going to say, “Hey, everybody knows that it was Paige Thompson who was behind it.” No, no, here's the indictment that said it was Paige Thompson that was, you know, indicted for this Capital One sort of thing. All the data that I'm using, it all comes from public sources, it's all sited, so it's not like, hey, some insider said, “Hey, this is what actually happened.” You know? I very much learned from the Ubiquiti case that I don't want to be in the position of Brian Krebs, where it's the attacker themselves who's updating the site and telling us everything that went wrong, when in fact, it's not because they're in fact the perpetrator.Corey: Yeah, there's a lot of lessons to be learned. And fortunately, for what it's s—at least it seems… mostly, that we've moved past the battle days of security researchers getting sued on a whim from large companies for saying embarrassing things about them. Of course, watch me be tempting fate and by the time this publishes, I'll get sued by some company, probably Azure or whatnot, telling me that, “Okay, we've had enough of you saying bad things about our security.” It's like, well, cool, but I also read the complaint before you file because your security is bad. Buh-dum-tss. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Please don't sue me.Chris: So, you know, whether it's slander or libel, depending on whether you're reading this or hearing it, you know, truth is an actual defense, so I think Microsoft doesn't have a case against you. I think for what we're doing in breaches, you know—and one of the reasons that I'm going to be very clear on anybody who contributes—and just for the record, anybody is welcome to contribute. The GitHub repo that runs breaches.cloud is public and anybody can submit me a pull request and I will take their write-ups of incidents. But whatever it is, it has to be sourced.One of the things that I'm looking to do shortly, is start soliciting sponsorships for breaches so that we can afford to go pull down the PACER documents. Because apparently in this country, while we have a right to a speedy trial, we don't have a right to actually get the court transcripts for less than ten cents a page. And so, part of what we need to do next is download those—and once we've purchased them, we can make them public—download those, make them public, and let everybody see exactly what the transcript was from the Capital One incident, or the Joey Sullivan trial.Corey: You're absolutely right. It drives me nuts that I have to wind up budgeting money for PACER to pull up court records. And at ten cents a page, it hasn't changed in decades, where it's oh, this is the cost of providing that data. It's, I'm not asking someone to walk to the back room and fax it to me. I want to be very clear here. It just feels like it's one of those areas where the technology and government is not caught up and it's—part of the problem is, of course, having no competition.Chris: There is that. And I think I read somewhere that the ent—if you wanted to download the entire PACER, it would be, like, $100 million. Not that you would do that, but you know, it is the moneymaker for the judicial system, and you know, they do need to keep the lights on. Although I guess that's what my taxes are for. But again, yes, they're a monopoly; they can do that.Corey: Wildly frustrating, isn't it?Chris: Yeah [sigh]… yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think there's a lot of value in the court transcripts. I've held off on publishing the Capital One case because one, well, already there's been a lot of ink spilled on it, and two, I think all the good detail is going to be in the trial transcripts from Paige Thompson's trial.Corey: So, I am curious what your take is on… well, let's called the ‘FTX thing.' I don't even know how to describe it at this point. Is it a breach? Is it just maleficence? Is it 15,000 other things? But I noticed that it's something that breaches.cloud does talk about a bit.Chris: Yeah. So, that one was a fascinating one that came out because as I was starting this project, I heard you know, somebody who was tweeting was like, “Hey, they were storing all of the crypto private keys in AWS Secrets Manager.” And I was like, “Errr?” And so, I went back and I read John J. Ray III's interim report to the creditors.Now, John Ray is the man who was behind the cleaning up of Enron, and his comment was “FTX is the”—“Never in my career have I seen such a complete failure of corporate controls and such a complete absence of trustworthy information as occurred here.” And as part of his general, broad write-up, they went into, in-depth, a lot of the FTX AWS practices. Like, we talk about, hey, you know, your company should be multi-account. FTX was worse. They had three or four different companies all operating in the same AWS account.They had their main company, FTX US, Alameda, all of them had crypto keys in Secrets Manager and there was no access control between any of those. And what ended up happening on the day that SBF left and Ray came in as CEO, the $400 million worth of crypto somehow disappeared out of FTX's wallets.Corey: I want to call this out because otherwise, I will get letters from the AWS PR spin doctors. Because on the surface of it, I don't know that there's necessarily a lot wrong with using Secrets Manager as the backing store for private keys. I do that with other things myself. The question is, what other controls are there? You can't just slap it into Secrets Manager and, “Well, my job is done. Let's go to lunch early today.”There are challenges [laugh] around the access levels, there are—around who has access, who can audit these things, and what happens. Because most of the secrets I have in Secrets Manager are not the sort of thing that is, it is now a viable strategy to take that thing and abscond to a country with a non-extradition treaty for the rest of my life, but with private keys and crypto, there kind of is.Chris: That's it. It's like, you know, hey, okay, the RDS database password is one thing, but $400 million in crypto is potentially another thing. Putting it in and Secrets Manager might have been the right answer, too. You get KMS customer-managed keys, you get full auditability with CloudTrail, everything else, but we didn't hear any of that coming out of Ray's report to the creditors. So again, the question is, did they even have CloudTrail turned on? He did explicitly say that FTX had not enabled GuardDuty.Corey: On some level, even if GuardDuty doesn't do anything for you, which in my case, it doesn't, but I want to be clear, you should still enable it anyway because you're going to get dragged when there's inevitable breach because there's always a breach somewhere, and then you get yelled at for not having turned on something that was called GuardDuty. You already sound negligent, just with that sentence alone. Same with Security Hub. Good name on AWS's part if you're trying to drive service adoption. Just by calling it the thing that responsible people would use, you will see adoption, even if people never configure or understand it.Chris: Yeah, and then of course, hey, you had Security Hub turned on, but you ignore the 80,000 findings in it. Why did you ignore those 80,000 findings? I find Security Hub to probably be a little bit too much noise. And it's not Security Hub, it's ‘Compliance Hub.' Everything—and I'm going to have a blog post coming out shortly—on this, everything that Security Hub looks at, it looks at it from a compliance perspective.If you look at all of its scoring, it's not how many things are wrong; it's how many rules you are a hundred percent compliant to. It is not useful for anybody below that AWS security poverty line to really master or to really operationalize.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to catch up with me once again. Although now that I'm the client, I expect I can do this on demand, which is just going to be delightful. If people want to learn more, where can they find you?Chris: So, they can find breaches.cloud at, well https://breaches.cloud. If you're looking for me, I am either on Twitter, still, at @jcfarris, or you can find me and my consulting company, which is www.primeharbor.com.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to all of that in the [show notes 00:33:57]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. As always, I appreciate it.Chris: Oh, thank you for having me again.Corey: Chris Farris, cloud security nerd at PrimeHarbor. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry, insulting comment that you're also going to use as the storage back-end for your private keys.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

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Get ready for fascinating and relevant insights on this episode of Gratitude Through Hard Times, featuring Jim Harter, PhD, Gallup's Chief Scientist of Workplace Management and Wellbeing. He's sharing with Host Chris Schembra all the eye-opening research and analysis behind his latest book (co-authored with Jim Clifton of the Clifton Strengths Assessment),"Culture Shock: An unstoppable force has changed how we work and live. Gallup's solution to the biggest leadership issue of our time." The key takeaway? Nothing cements employee performance, satisfaction and retention more effectively than regular, meaningful conversations – especially when they include recognition for work well done. It costs leaders very little and, data indicate, pays off over and over again in bottom-line results. Dr. Jim explains the research and analysis that the Gallup organization has undertaken to address the biggest leadership challenges of our time, including the stresses of remote work, the limited wellbeing associated with four-day work weeks and the critical role that empathy plays in engaging with and bringing out the best in our workplace cultures. Dr. Jim's new book is jam-packed with stats and evidence-backed solutions to align your company's purpose with employee satisfaction – which ultimately translates into that all-important customer success!Want to hear much more from Dr. Jim Harter? Pick up a copy of his latest collaboration, "Culture Shock," check out his bestselling book, "12:The Elements of Great Managing" or click here to check out "Wellbeing: The Five Essential Elements."If you'd like to learn more about Chris and his 7:47 Virtual Gratitude Experience or subscribe to our newsletter, please visit this link.Click here to hear more fascinating conversations with Fortune 500 CEOs, professional athletes and entertainers who have shared their human stories on Gratitude Through Hard Times. KEY TOPICS:If you could give credit or thanks to one person in your life that you don't give enough credit or thanks to – that you've never thought to thank – who would that be and why? Frank Schmidt, PhD, a research scientist and mentor who reshaped Dr. Jim's approach to people, research and the role of gratitude in the context of employee engagement.Culture Shock: Co-authored with Jim Clifton, this latest collaboration uses Gallup data and qualitative snapshots to unpack the post-Covid workforce and workplace future.Important Findings:For workers, overall stress has continued on an upward trajectory but remote work has offered welcome freedom (from things like commuting).For leaders, there's uncertainty about how to monitor remote worker productivity.Data suggest that there's plenty of room for businesses to thrive.A Great Reset: Why leaders who clearly define (and communicate) workplace culture, customer experience and organizational values are most likely to ride out recession. Customer Success: About the importance of employee satisfaction and loyalty when it comes to quality service delivery and long-term, bottom-line corporate results.Managing Strengths: Understanding employee styles, aspirations and experiences is a key component for engagement, retention, job and customer satisfaction.Manager to Employee to Customer: How the interplay among all three elements determines corporate success. Changing the Dialogue: How empathy can open up the conversations that managers need to be having with employees to overcome workplace disconnects.Meaningful Conversations: Gallup research indicates that recognition and gratitude are among the most powerful tools we have to cultivate workplace community and loyalty.Components of Meaningful Conversations:Recognize specific, recent work efforts.Understand what motivates good work.Know the context of the employee's particular work.Meet on an ongoing basis.Collaborate and coordinate remote compared with in-person hours.Wellbeing v. Engagement: Why stats indicate that the benefits of four-day work weeks are offset in many cases by the stress of compressed schedules and loss of autonomy.Blenders and Splitters: About the difference between people who prefer to compartmentalize work and family life and those who take a multi-task approach.Step. No. 1: Dr. Jim recommends managers adopt the coaching habit of one meaningful conversation every week grounded in empathy, understanding and accountability. QUOTABLE“A lot of people don't know their impact on you until you tell them.” (Dr. Jim) “Gratitude is an inherently pro-social trait that feels good to give, to receive and to observe. But we have to take the first step.” (Chris) “Gratitude is contagious and creates a positive upward smile. It's one of the most positive forces in the universe because it keeps on giving.” (Chris) “There's plenty of data to show that great managing can make workplaces more productive than they've ever been before. If we combine autonomy with great performance management, we can reach all-time highs.” (Dr. Jim) “To get the right customer experience, you've got to have the right employee experience.” (Dr. Jim) “Sometimes all you need to do to shorten the distance between employer and employee is just ask your team, ‘How do you like to be recognized? How do you like to receive gratitude?' How do you like your wins celebrated?' ” (Chris) “The reason managers are so important is that they're the only ones inside organizations who know the idiosyncrasies of each person and have the opportunity to get to know their situations – and that's never been more important than it is right now.” (Dr. Jim)  LINKS/FURTHER RESOURCES:Learn more about the Clifton Strengths Assessment.Jim's Harvard Business Review article, "What Great Managers Do to Engage Employees." ABOUT OUR GUEST:Jim Harter, Ph.D., is Chief Scientist for Gallup's workplace management and wellbeing practices. He is the coauthor of the No. 1 Wall Street Journal and Washington Post bestseller, "It's the Manager", released in 2019. His work has appeared in the Harvard Business Review, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Fast Company and Time magazine in addition to many academic publications. FOLLOW OUR GUEST:WEBSITE | LINKEDIN ABOUT OUR HOST:Chris Schembra is a philosopher, question asker and facilitator. He's a columnist at Rolling Stone magazine, USA Today calls him their "Gratitude Guru" and he's spent the last six years traveling around the world helping people connect in meaningful ways. As the offshoot of his #1 Wall Street Journal bestselling book, "Gratitude Through Hard Times: Finding Positive Benefits Through Our Darkest Hours,"he uses this podcast to blend ancient stoic philosophy and modern-day science to teach how the principles of gratitude can be used to help people get through their hard times. FOLLOW CHRIS:WEBSITE | INSTAGRAM | LINKEDIN| BOOKS

Chris: First off, tell us a bit about NetRise, what you all do, and what your focus is on?Chris: There's been a tremendous focus as of late on software supply chain security, as you know, but much of it focuses on things such as Cloud, SaaS, Containers etc. at NetRise you all take a focus on Firmware, IoT and Cyber Physical Systems (CPS). Why is that and what are some concerns folks overlook with these vectors?Nikki: You just announced the launch of ETHOS - a cooperation between several organizations to investigate threat indicators and looking into emerging trends in attacks. Can you talk a little bit about how this idea came together and what ETHOS will be doing? Nikki:You have a lot of expertise around IoT and IIoT, can you talk about some emerging trends in cyber threats and concerns around the connectivity of devices? Chris: I know you guys focus a fair bit on SBOM. For those not required to have one due to policy or regulations, what are the benefits of doing so?Chris: I know you all have experience and expertise with vulnerabilities in products. Does SBOM help address scenarios where the product itself may have no identified vulnerabilities or CVE's but components identified in its SBOM do?Chris: I noticed you're also a USMC veteran, so first, thanks for your service. As a fellow veteran, as I recently walked the RSAC floor this past week I noticed how many leaders in the industry had former military experience. Have you noticed anything similar in Cyber and has your military experience served you in any ways as you have went on to go into industry cyber roles and now as a CEO?Nikki: You have such great experience between threat hunting, incident response, to now being a CEO / Co-founder and Advisor to multiple other companies. What has that transition been like and do you have any advice for any other practitioners out there that may be interested in starting their own organization? Nikki: What's your favorite book, podcast, or other media right now? Anything we should be checking out? Nikki: What are some of the big things going on at NetRise right now? Any other projects you and the team are working on that you would like to share?

Chris: Can you tell us a bit about your background and what the role of the Deputy Principal Cyber Advisor does?Nikki: When we talk about workforce challenges, I think about the types of skills that someone is looking for in a cyber program. What types of skills do you look for in hiring and what kinds of skills do we still need in the cyber profession? Chris: We know you've been focused heavily on the Cybersecurity workforce for DoN.  In our discussions of digital modernization, the focus is often on tech, such as cloud, zero trust, etc. Why do you think the people or workforce aspect is so often overlooked? Nikki: What do you think about the value of education and certifications when it comes to hiring and retaining cybersecurity professionals? Whether it's an analyst or an engineer, there is a lot of back and forth in the industry on whether certifications should be required or if it may be limiting the talent pool  Nikki: I saw you posted recently about North Dakota requiring cybersecurity education in schools - how critical do you think this is for K-12? As a mom this is something I think about all the time Chris: Can you tell us a bit about the DoN's approach to modernizing the workforce around cybersecurity?Chris: There's been some buzz around the DoN's Cyberspace Superiority Vision, what exactly does that entail?Nikki: I have the opportunity to teach my kids but what about all the other children without parents in cybersecurity?  Nikki: One of the other interesting articles that came out recently was around the potential change in cybersecurity leadership we'll be seeing in the next few years. Do you foresee some of these leaders leaving the industry and what kind of effect do you think it will have on the industry? Chris: We know there's rumbles of an upcoming DoN Cyber Strategy. We recently saw the release of the National Cyber Strategy. How will the DoN strategy build on that and what are the synergies between the two? Nikki: What does cyber resiliency mean to you?

You've got the business, the car, the boat, the house. You're blessed with a great family, friends, access to more than your wildest dreams. But something is missing. Something is gnawing at you. If this sounds familiar, you may be in need of “soul fulfillment,” which is what Host Chris Schembra's guest on this episode of Gratitude Through Hard Times has provided thousands of people. At his Rythmia Life Advancement Center in Costa Rica, Founder & CEO Gerry Powell offers comprehensive plant-based medicine retreats. The modalities work at a deep level to help remove shame, fear, trauma and the anger that fuels – and is a downfall for – so many hyper-successful people. You'll learn about Gerry's transformational journey and how he stepped away from the multimillion-dollar serial IPO lifestyle he thought would bring him happiness – but that instead left him profoundly empty and suicidal. Working with plant-based shamanic techniques opens up new pathways to self-acceptance and compassion. It's a journey that 97% of Rythmia participants describe as nothing short of a “miracle,” a source of relief and revelation that transcends our ingratitude, confusion and old, unhealed wounding. Most of all, says Gerry, people leave his one-week retreats with an entirely new regard for life: “I made it out of sheer perseverance and brutality, but there are so many other ways to do it and feel different.” You're invited to explore and see your soul's fulfillment in a completely new way!More information about the medically licensed plant medicine and transformational retreat experience offered at Rythmia is available at this link, along with a video about Gerry's very personal journey to wellness (here).If you'd like to learn more about Chris and his 7:47 Virtual Gratitude Experience or subscribe to our newsletter, please visit this link.Click hereto hear more fascinating conversations with Fortune 500 CEOs, professional athletes and entertainerswho have shared their human stories on Gratitude Through Hard Times. KEY TOPICS:When the Bucket Doesn't Feel Full: Why Gerry wants to reach out to successful entrepreneurs who very often feel something missing and don't understand what or why.If you could give credit or thanks to one person in your life that you don't give enough credit or thanks to – or that you've never thought to thank – who would that be? So many people, but Shaman Gina was pivotal.The Gift of Perspective: How plant medicine can help reveal to us the ways in which even those who hurt us are of help in our lives – even when we don't see it.Sections in Chris's book that are relevant to plant medicine:Connect the Dots Backwards: About gratitude as a link to our past.Struggles into Benefits: About the science behind “grateful processing.”Feeling the Feelings: How a lifetime of numbing and other corrosive emotional coping mechanisms turned around only after Gerry was able to embrace a shamanic experience with plant-based medicine.Repairing the Fraction: Gerry turned his life over to healing, creating a unique retreat space at @Rythmia in Costa Rica, changing the lives of more than 14,000 seekers.Coming from Ingratitude: How a hypervigilant “brute” approach to the pursuit of goals yields only more anger, shame, guilt, regret.Plant Medicine: It's a conduit to compassion, self-love, wisdom and generosity that enables us to be collaborative, empathetic, curious leaders.Knowing When You're Ready: Plant medicine comes into focus when we are ready to put the pieces together and open ourselves to transformation.The Comeback Story: Rythmia is about taking people out of their hole, to the brink and back from despair to a “miracle.”Joining the Tribe: Why plant medicine work of the type Gerry practices offers hyper-achievers a place to reconnect, work through shame and guilt and find wholeness in a safe community environment. QUOTABLE“It's the perfect time to be in this work as the world is waking up that there is a greater human potential out there.” (Chris) “There are people who help pull you towards your higher self and people who hurt you who keep pushing you towards your higher self.” (Gerry) “Gratitude is about looking into the past and being grateful for all the steps that took you to where you are today – the good and the bad.” (Chris) “Once you die you can actually live life without the fear of death, which makes you really want to be more than anything a beneficial presence here on earth.” (Gerry) “The secret to success and happiness is not necessarily a new go-to-market strategy, not a higher intellect or new network … It's actually to look inside yourself and be at peace with who you are.” (Chris) “Very few of us who are hyper-successful were raised in the right way. There's a reason those folks are in the one-tenth of one percent. And it's not because everything was nice and tidy.” (Gerry) “Guilt and shame and regret are extremely lonely emotions and the thing you think you should do is not talk about it. But it's actually the opposite: Confront it, talk about it and forgive yourself. Plant medicine really helps you do that.” (Chris) “The obstacles you've overcome – the shame, guilt and trauma you feel right now – are the best parts about you because true human connection and belonging do not occur when our lives appear to be perfect.” (Chris) LINKS/FURTHER RESOURCES:More about the global leadership community YPO at this link.About "Grateful Processing," a concept developed by Prof. Phillip Watkins of Eastern Washington University."The Magic of Thinking Big," by David J. Schwartz, PhD.About Michael Beckwith's Agape Spiritual Center.More about author Kurt Vonnegut's "Six Emotional Arcs of Storytelling." ABOUT OUR GUEST:Gerry is Founder and CEO of Rythmia, an all-inclusive, luxury, medically licensed plant medicine center in Guanacaste, Costa Rica. His singular goal is to serve guests and help each individual get their Miracle. FOLLOW GERRY:WEBSITE | LINKEDIN | TWITTER|INSTAGRAM ABOUT OUR HOST:Chris Schembra is a philosopher, question asker and facilitator. He's a columnist at Rolling Stone magazine, USA Today calls him their "Gratitude Guru" and he's spent the last six years traveling around the world helping people connect in meaningful ways. As the offshoot of his #1 Wall Street Journal bestselling book, "Gratitude Through Hard Times: Finding Positive Benefits Through Our Darkest Hours,"he uses this podcast to blend ancient stoic philosophy and modern-day science to teach how the principles of gratitude can be used to help people get through their hard times. FOLLOW CHRIS:WEBSITE | INSTAGRAM | LINKEDIN | BOOKS

Episode SummaryChris Farris, Cloud Security Nerd at Turbot, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss the latest events in cloud security, which leads to an interesting analysis from Chris on how legal departments obscure valuable information that could lead to fewer security failures in the name of protecting company liability, and what the future of accountability for security failures looks like. Chris and Corey also discuss the newest dangers in cloud security and billing practices, and Chris describes his upcoming cloud security conference, fwd:cloudsec. About ChrisChris Farris has been in the IT field since 1994 primarily focused on Linux, networking, and security. For the last 8 years, he has focused on public-cloud and public-cloud security. He has built and evolved multiple cloud security programs for major media companies, focusing on enabling the broader security team's objectives of secure design, incident response and vulnerability management. He has developed cloud security standards and baselines to provide risk-based guidance to development and operations teams. As a practitioner, he's architected and implemented multiple serverless and traditional cloud applications focused on deployment, security, operations, and financial modeling.Chris now does cloud security research for Turbot and evangelizes for the open source tool Steampipe. He is one of the organizers of the fwd:cloudsec conference (https://fwdcloudsec.org) and has given multiple presentations at AWS conferences and BSides events.When not building things with AWS's building blocks, he enjoys building Legos with his kid and figuring out what interesting part of the globe to travel to next. He opines on security and technology on Mastodon, Twitter and his website https://www.chrisfarris.comLinks Referenced: Turbot: https://turbot.com/ fwd:cloudsec: https://fwdcloudsec.org/ Mastodon: https://infosec.exchange/@jcfarris Personal website: https://chrisfarris.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn and we are here today to learn exciting things, steal exciting secrets, and make big trouble for Moose and Squirrel. Maybe that's the podcast; maybe that's the KGB, we're not entirely sure. But I am joined once again by Chris Farris, cloud security nerd at Turbot, which I will insist on pronouncing as ‘Turbo.' Chris, thanks for coming back.Chris: Thanks for having me.Corey: So, it's been a little while and it's been an uneventful time in cloud security with nothing particularly noteworthy happening, not a whole lot of things to point out, and honestly, we're just sort of scraping the bottom of the barrel for news… is what I wish I could say, but it isn't true. Instead, it's, “Oh, let's see what disastrous tire fire we have encountered this week.” What's top of mind for you as we record this?Chris: I think the most interesting one I thought was, you know, going back and seeing the guilty plea from Nickolas Sharp, who formerly was an employee at Ubiquiti and apparently had, like, complete access to everything there and then ran amok with it.Corey: Mm-hm.Chris: The details that were buried at the time in the indictment, but came out in the press releases were he was leveraging root keys, he was leveraging lifecycle policies to suppress the CloudTrail logs. And then of course, you know, just doing dumb things like exfiltrating all of this data from his home IP address, or exfiltrating it from his home through a VPN, which have accidentally dropped and then exposed his home IP address. Oops.Corey: There's so much to dive into there because I am not in any way shape or form, saying that what he did was good, or I endorse any of those things. And yeah, I think he belongs in prison for what he did; let's be very clear on this. But I personally did not have a business relationship with him. I am, however, Ubiquiti's customer. And after—whether it was an insider threat or whether it was someone external breaching them, Krebs On Security wound up doing a whole write-up on this and was single-sourcing some stuff from the person who it turned out, did this.And they made a lot of hay about this. They sued him at one point via some terrible law firm that's entire brand is suing media companies. And yeah, just wonderful, wonderful optics there and brilliant plan. But I don't care about the sourcing. I don't care about the exact accuracy of the reporting because what I'm seeing here is that what is not disputed is this person, who whether they were an employee or not was beside the point, deleted all of the audit logs and then as a customer of Ubiquiti, I received an email saying, “We have no indication or evidence that any customer data was misappropriated.” Yeah, you just turn off your logs and yeah, you could say that always and forever and save money on logging costs. [unintelligible 00:03:28] best practice just dropped, I guess. Clowns.Chris: So, yeah. And there's definitely, like, compliance and standards and everything else that say you turn on your logs and you protect your logs, and service control policies should have been able to detect that. If they had a security operations center, you know, the fact that somebody was using root keys should have been setting off red flags and causing escalations to occur. And that wasn't happening.Corey: My business partner and I have access to our AWS org, and when I was setting this stuff up for what we do here, at a very small company, neither of us can log in with root credentials without alarms going off that alert the other. Not that I don't trust the man; let's be very clear here. We both own the company.Chris: In business together. Yes.Corey: Ri—exactly. It is, in many ways, like a marriage in that one of us can absolutely ruin the other without a whole lot of effort. But there's still the idea of separation of duties, visibility into what's going on, and we don't use root API keys. Let me further point out that we are not pushing anything that requires you to send data to us. We're not providing a service that is software powered to people, much less one that is built around security. So, how is it that I have a better security posture than Ubiquiti?Chris: You understand AWS and in-depth cloud better. You know, it really comes down to how do you, as an AWS customer, understand all of the moving parts, all of the security tooling, all of the different ways that something can happen. And Amazon will say, “Well, it's in the documentation,” but you know, they have, what, 357 services? Are you reading the security pages of all of those? So, user education, I agree, you should have, and I have on all of my accounts, if anything pops up, if any IAM change happens, I'm getting text messages. Which is great if my account got compromised, but is really annoying when I'm actually making a change and my phone is blowing up.Corey: Yeah. It's worth pointing out as well that yes, Ubiquiti is publicly traded—that is understood and accepted—however, 93% of it is owned by their CEO-founder god-king. So, it is effectively one person's personal fiefdom. And I tend to take a very dim view as a direct result. When you're in cloud and you have suffered a breach, you have severely screwed something up somewhere. These breaches are never, “Someone stole a whole bunch of drives out of an AWS data center.” You have misconfigured something somewhere. And lashing out at people who reported on it is just a bad look.Chris: Definitely. Only error—now, of course, part of the problem here is that our legal system encourages people to not come forward and say, “I screwed up. Here's how I screwed up. Everybody come learn from my mistakes.” The legal professions are also there to manage risk for the company and they're like, “Don't say anything. Don't say anything. Don't even tell the government. Don't say anything.”Whereas we all need to learn from these errors. Which is why I think every time I do see a breach or I do see an indictment, I start diving into it to learn more. I did a blog post on some of the things that happened with Drizly and GitHub, and you know, I think the most interesting thing that came out of Drizly case was the ex-CEO of Drizly, who was CEO at the time of the breach, now has following him, for the rest of his life, an FTC order that says he must implement a security program wherever he goes and works. You know, I don't know what happens when he becomes a Starbucks barista or whatever, but that is on him. That is not on the company; that is on him.And I do think that, you know, we will start seeing more and more chief executive officers, chief security or information security officers becoming accountable to—or for the breaches and being personally accountable or professionally accountable for it. I think we kind of need it, even though, you know, there's only so much a CISO can do.Corey: One of the things that I did when I started consulting independently on AWS bills back in 2016 was, while I was looking at customer environments, I also would do a quick check for a few security baseline things. And I stopped doing it because I kept encountering a bunch of things that needed attention and it completely derailed the entire stated purpose of the engagement. And, frankly, I don't want to be running a security consultancy. There's a reason I focus on AWS bills. And people think I'm kidding, but I swear to you I'm not, when I say that the reason is in part because no one has a middle-of-the-night billing emergency. It is strictly a business-hours problem. Whereas with security, wake up.In fact, the one time I have been woken up in the middle of the night by a customer phone call, they were freaking out because it was a security incident and their bill had just pegged through the stratosphere. It's, “Cool. Fix the security problem first, then we'll worry about the bill during business hours. Bye.” And then I stopped leaving my phone off of Do Not Disturb at night.Chris: Your AWS bill is one of your indicators of compromise. Keep an eye on it.Corey: Oh, absolutely. We've had multiple engagements discover security issues on that. “So, what are these instances in Australia doing?” “We don't have anything there.” “I believe you're being sincere when you say this.”Chris: Yes.Corey: However.Chris: “Last month, you're at $1,000 and this month, you're at $50,000. And oh, by the way, it's the ninth, so you might want to go look at that.”Corey: Here's the problem that you start seeing in large-scale companies though. You or I wind up posting our IAM credentials on GitHub somewhere in public—and I do this from time to time, intentionally with absolutely no permissions attached to a thing—and I started look at the timeline of, “Okay 3, 2, 1, go,” with the push and now I start counting. What happens? At what time does the quarantine policy apply? When do I get an email alert? When do people start trying to exploit it? From where are they trying to exploit it?It's a really interesting thing to look into, just from the position of how this stuff all fits together and works. And that's great, but there's a whole ‘nother piece to it where if you or I were to do such a thing and actually give it admin credentials, okay, my, I don't know, what, $50, $100 a month account that I use for a lot of my test stuff now starts getting charged enormous piles of money that winds up looking like a mortgage in San Francisco, I'm going to notice that. But if you have a company that spending, I don't know, between ten and $20 million a month, do you have any idea how much Bitcoin you've got to be mining in that account to even make a slight dent in the overall trajectory of those accounts?Chris: In the overall bill, a lot. And in a particularly mismanaged account, my experience is you will notice it if you're monitoring billing anomalies on a per-account basis. I think it's important to note, you talked about that quarantine policy. If you look at what actually Amazon drops a deny on, it's effectively start EC2 instances and change IAM policies. It doesn't prevent anybody from listing all your buckets and exfiltrating all your data. It doesn't prevent anybody from firing up Lambdas and other less commonly used resources. Don't assume oh, Amazon dropped the quarantine policy. I'm safe.Corey: I was talking to somebody who spends $4 a month on S3 and they wound up suddenly getting $60 grand a day and Lambda charges, because max out the Lambda concurrency in every region and set it to mine crypto for 15 minutes apiece, yeah, you'll spend $60,000 a day to get, what $500 in crypto. But it's super economical as long as it's in someone else's account. And then Amazon hits them with a straight face on these things, where, “Please pay the bill.” Which is horrifying when there's several orders of magnitude difference between your normal bill and what happens post-breach. But what I did my whole post on “17 Ways to Run Containers on AWS,” followed by “17 More Ways to Run Containers on AWS,” and [unintelligible 00:12:00] about three services away from having a third one ready to go on that, the point is not, “Too many ways to run containers,” because yes, that is true and it's also amusing to me—less so to the containers team at AWS which does not have a sense of humor or sense of self-awareness of which they have been alerted—and fine, but every time you're running a container, it is a way to turn it into a crypto mining operation, in some way shape or form, which means there are almost 40-some-odd services now that can reasonably be used to spin up cryptocurrency mining. And that is the best-case breach scenario in a bunch of ways. It costs a bunch of money and things to clean up, but ‘we lost customer data.' That can destroy companies.Chris: Here's the worst part. Crypto mining is no longer profitable even when I've got stolen API keys because bitcoin's in the toilet. So, now they are going after different things. Actually, the most recent one is they look to see if your account is out of the SCS sandbox and if so, they go back to the tried-and-true way of doing internet scams, which is email spam.Corey: For me, having worked in operations for a very long time, I've been in situations where I worked at Expensify and had access to customer data there. I have worked in other finance companies—I worked at Blackrock. Where I work now, I have access to customer billing data. And let me be serious here for a second, I take all of these things seriously, but I also in all of those roles slept pretty well at night. The one that kept me up was a brief stint I did as the Director of Tech Ops at Grindr over ten years ago because unlike the stuff where I'm spending the rest of my career and my time now, it's not just money anymore.Whereas today, if I get popped, someone can get access to what a bunch of companies are paying AWS. It's scandalous, and I will be sued into oblivion and my company will not exist anymore and I will have a cloud hanging over my head forever. So, I have to be serious about it—Chris: But nobody will die.Corey: Nobody dies. Whereas, “Oh, this person is on Grindr and they're not out publicly,” or they live in a jurisdiction where that is punishable by imprisonment or death, you have blood on your hands, on some level, and I have never wanted that kind of responsibility.Chris: Yeah. It's reasonably scary. I've always been happy to say that, you know, the worst thing that I had to do was keep the Russians off CNN and my friends from downloading Rick and Morty.Corey: Exactly. It's, “Oh, heavens, you're winding up costing some giant conglomerate somewhere theoretical money on streaming subscriptions.” It's not material to the state of the world. And part of it, too, is—what's always informed my approach to things is, I'm not a data hoarder in the way that it seems our entire industry is. For the Last Week in AWS newsletter, the data that I collect and track is pretty freaking small.It's, “You want to sign up for the lastweekinaws.com newsletter. Great, I need your email address.” I don't need your name, I don't need the company you work at. You want to give me a tagged email address? Fine. You want to give me some special address that goes through some anonymizing thing? Terrific. I need to know where I'm sending the newsletter. And then I run a query on that for metrics sometimes, which is this really sophisticated database query called a count. How many subscribers do I have at any given point because that matters to our sponsors. But can we get—you give us any demographic? No, I cannot. I can't. I have people who [unintelligible 00:15:43] follow up surveys sometimes and that's it.Chris: And you're able to make money doing that. You don't have to collect, okay, you know, Chris's zip code is this and Bob's zip code is that and Frank's zip code is the other thing.Corey: Exactly.Chris: Or job titles, or you know, our mother's maiden name or anything else like that.Corey: I talk about what's going on in the world of AWS, so it sort of seems to me that if you're reading this stuff every week, either because of the humor or in spite of the humor, you probably are in a position where services and goods tied to that ecosystem would be well-received by you or one of the other 32,000 people who happen to be reading the newsletter or listening to the podcast or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's an old-timey business model. It's okay, I want to wind up selling, I don't know, expensive wristwatches. Well, maybe I'll advertise in a magazine that caters to people who have an interest in wristwatches, or caters to a demographic that traditionally buys those wristwatches. And okay, we'll run an ad campaign and see if it works.Chris: It's been traditional advertising, not the micro-targeting stuff. And you know, television was the same way back in the broadcast era, you know? You watched a particular show, people of that demographic who watched that particular show had certain advertisers they wanted.Corey: That part of the challenge I've seen too, from sponsors of this show, for example, is they know it works, but they're trying to figure out how to do any form of attribution on this. And my answer—which sounds self-serving, but it's true—is, there's no effective way to do it because every time you try, like, “Enter this coupon code,” yeah, I assure you, some of these things wind up costing millions of dollars to deploy at large companies at scale and they provide value for doing it. No one's going to punch in a coupon code to get 10% off or something like that. Procurement is going to negotiate custom contracts and it's going to be brought up maybe by someone who heard the podcast ad. Maybe it just sits in the back of their mind until they hear something and it just winds of contributing to a growing awareness of these things.You're never going to do attribution that works on things like that. People try sometimes to, “Oh, you'll get $25 in credit,” or, “We'll give you a free t-shirt if you fill out the form.” Yeah, but now you're biasing for people who find that a material motivator. When I'm debating what security suite I'm going to roll out at my enterprise I don't want a free t-shirt for that. In fact, if I get a free t-shirt and I wear that shirt from the vendor around the office while I'm trying to champion bringing that thing in, I look a little compromised.Chris: Yeah. Yeah, I am—[laugh] I got no response to that [laugh].Corey: No, no. I hear you. One thing I do want to talk about is the last time we spoke, you mentioned you were involved in getting fwd:cloudsec—a conference—off the ground. Like all good cloud security conferences, it's named after an email subject line.It is co-located with re:Inforce this year in Anaheim, California. Somewhat ominously enough, I used to live a block-and-a-half away from the venue. But I don't anymore and in fact, because nobody checks the global event list when they schedule these things, I will be on the other side of the world officiating a wedding the same day. So, yet again, I will not be at re:Inforce.Chris: That is a shame because I think you would have made an excellent person to contribute to our call for papers and attend. So yes, fwd:cloudsec is deliberately actually named after a subject line because all of the other Amazon conferences seem to be that way. And we didn't want to be going backwards and thinking, you know, past tense. We were looking forward to our conference. Yeah, so we're effectively a vendor-neutral cloud security conference. We liked the idea of being able to take the talks that Amazon PR would never allow on stage at re:Inforce and run with it.Corey: I would question that. I do want to call that out because I gave a talk at re:Invent one year about a vulnerability I found and reported, with the help of two other people, Scott Piper and Brandon Sherman, to the AWS security team. And we were able to talk about that on stage with Zack Glick, who at the time, was one of basically God's own prototypes, working over in the AWS environment next to Dan [Erson 00:19:56]. Now, Dan remains the salt of the earth, and if he ever leaves basically just short the entire US economy. It's easier. He is amazing. I digress. The point being is that they were very open about talking about an awful lot of stuff that I would never have expected that they would be okay with.Chris: And last year at re:Inforce, they had an excellent, excellent chalk talk—but it was a chalk talk, not recorded—on how ransomware attacks operate. And they actually, like, revealed some internal, very anonymized patterns of how attacks are working. So, they're starting to realize what we've been saying in the cloud security community for a while, which is, we need more legitimate threat intelligence. On the other hand, they don't want to call it threat intelligence because the word threat is threatening, and therefore, you know, we're going to just call it, you know, patterns or whatever. And our conference is, again, also multi-cloud, a concept that until recently, AWS, you know, didn't really want to acknowledge that there were other clouds and that people would use both of them [crosstalk 00:21:01]—Corey: Multi-cloud security is a nightmare. It's just awful.Chris: Yeah, I don't like multi-cloud, but I've come to realize that it is a thing. That you will either start at a company that says, “We're AWS and we're uni-cloud,” and then next thing, you know, either some rogue developer out there has gone and spun up an Azure subscription or your acquire somebody who's in GCP, or heaven forbid, you have to go into some, you know, tinhorn dictator's jurisdiction and they require you to be on-prem or leverage Oracle Cloud or something. And suddenly, congratulations, you're now multi-cloud. So yes, our goal is really to be the things that aren't necessarily onstage or aren't all just, “It's great.” Even your talk was how great the incident response and vulnerability remediation process was.Corey: How great my experience with it was at the time, to be clear. Because I also have gotten to a point where I am very aware that, in many cases when dealing with AWS, my reputation precedes me. So, when I wind up tweeting about a problem or opening a support case, I do not accept as a given that my experience is what everyone is going to experience. But a lot of the things they did made a lot of sense and I was frankly, impressed that they were willing to just talk about anything that they did internally. Because previously that had not been a thing that they did in open forums like that.Chris: But you go back to the Glue incident where somebody found a bug and they literally went and went to every single CloudTrail event going back to the dawn of the service to validate that, okay, the, only two times we ever saw this happen were between the two researcher's accounts who disclosed it. And so, kudos to them for that level of forward communication to their customers because yeah, I think we still haven't heard anything out of Azure for last year's—or a year-and-a-half ago's Wiz findings.Corey: Well, they did do a broad blog post about this that they put out, which I thought, “Okay, that was great. More of this please.” Because until they start talking about security issues and culture and the remediation thereof, I don't give a shit what they have to say about almost anything else because it all comes back to security. The only things I use Azure for, which admittedly has some great stuff; their computer vision API? Brilliant—but the things I use them for are things that I start from a premise of security is not important to that service.The thing I use it for on the soon-to-be-pivoted to Mastodon Twitter thread client that I built, it writes alt-text for images that are about to be put out publicly. Yeah, there's no security issue from that perspective. I am very hard-pressed to imagine a scenario in which that were not true.Chris: I can come up with a couple, but you know—Corey: It feels really contrived. And honestly, that's the thing that concerns me, too: the fact that I finally read, somewhat recently, an AWS white paper talking about—was it a white paper or was it blog post? I forget the exact media that it took. But it was about how they are seeing ransomware attacks on S3, which was huge because before that, I assumed it was something that was being made up by vendors to sell me something.Chris: So, that was the chalk talk.Corey: Yes.Chris: They finally got the chalk talk from re:Inforce, they gave it again at re:Invent because it was so well received and now they have it as a blog post out there, so that, you know, it's not just for people who show up in the room, they can hear it; it's actually now documented out there. And so, kudos to the Amazon security team for really getting that sort of threat intelligence out there to the community.Corey: Now, it's in writing, and that's something that I can cite as opposed to, “Well, I was at re:Invent and I heard—” Yeah, we saw the drink tab. We know what you might have thought you heard or saw at re:Invent. Give us something we can take to the board.Chris: There were a lot of us on that bar tab, so it's not all you.Corey: Exactly. And it was my pleasure to do it, to be clear. But getting back to fwd:cloudsec, I'm going to do you a favor. Whether it's an actual favor or the word favor belongs in quotes, the way that I submit CFPs, or conference talks, is optimized because I don't want to build a talk that is never going to get picked up. Why bother to go through all the work until I have to give it somewhere?So, I start with a catchy title and then three to five sentences. And if people accept it, great, then I get to build the talk. This is a forcing function in some ways because if you get a little delayed, they will not move the conference for you. I've checked. But the title of a talk that I think someone should submit for fwd:cloudsec is, “I Am Smarter Than You, so Cloud Security is Easy.”And the format and the conceit of the talk is present it with sort of a stand-it-up-to-take-it-down level of approach where you are over-confident in the fact that you are smarter than everyone else and best practices don't apply to you and so much of this stuff is just security theater designed as a revenue extraction mechanism as opposed to something you should actually be doing. And talk about why none of these things matter because you use good security and you know, it's good because you came up with it and there's no way that you could come up with something that you couldn't break because you're smart. It says so right in the title and you're on stage and you have a microphone. They don't. Turn that into something. I feel like there's a great way to turn that in a bunch of different directions. I'd love to see someone give that talk.Chris: I think Nickolas Sharp thought that too.Corey: [laugh]. Exactly. In fact, that will be a great way to bring it back around at the end. And it's like, “And that's why I'm better at security than you are. If you have any questions beyond this, you can reach me at whatever correctional institute I go in on Thursday.” Exactly. There's ways to make it fun and engaging. Because from my perspective, talks have to be entertaining or people don't pay attention.Chris: They're either entertaining, or they're so new and advanced. We're definitely an advanced cloud security practice thing. They were 500 levels. Not to brag or anything, but you know, you want the two to 300-level stuff, you can go CCJ up the street. We're hitting and going above and beyond what a lot of the [unintelligible 00:27:18]—Corey: I am not as advanced on that path as you are; I want to be very clear on this. You speak, I listen. You're one of those people when it comes to security. Because again, no one's life is hanging in the balance with respect to what I do. I am confident in our security posture here, but nothing's perfect. Everything is exploitable, on some level.It's also not my core area of focus. It is yours. And if you are not better than I am at this, then I have done something sort of strange, or so of you, in the same way that it is a near certainty—but not absolute—that I am better at optimizing AWS bills than you are. Specialists exist for a reason and to discount that expertise is the peak of hubris. Put that in your talk.Chris: Yeah. So, one talk I really want to see, and I've been threatening to give it for a while, is okay, if there's seventeen ways—or sorry, seventeen times two, soon to be seventeen times three ways to run containers in AWS, there's that many ways to exfiltrate credentials from those containers. What are all of those things? Do we have a holistic way of understanding, this is how credentials can be exfiltrated so that we then as defenders can go figure out, okay, how do we build detections and mitigations for this?Corey: Yeah. I'm a huge fan of Canarytokens myself, for that exact purpose. There are many devices I have where the only credentials in plain text on disk are things that as soon as they get used, I wind up with a bunch of things screaming at me that there's been a problem and telling me where it is. I'm not saying that my posture is impenetrable. Far from it. But you're going to have to work for it a little bit harder than running some random off-the-shelf security scanner against my AWS account and finding, oops, I forgot to turn on a bucket protection.Chris: And the other area that I think is getting really interesting is, all of the things that have credentials into your Cloud account, whether it's something like CircleCI or GitHub. I was having a conversation with somebody just this morning and we were talking about Roles Anywhere, and I was like, “Roles Anywhere is great if you've got a good strong PKI solution and can keep that private certificate or that certificate you need safe.” If you just put it on a disk, like, you would have put your AKIA and secret on a desk, congratulations, you haven't really improved security. You've just gotten rid of the IAM users that are being flagged in your CSPM tool, and congratulations, you have, in fact, achieved security theater.Corey: It's obnoxious, on some level. And part of the problem is cost and security are aligned and that people care about them right after they really should have cared about them. The difference is you can beg, cry, whine, et cetera to AWS for concessions, you can raise another round of funding; there have solutions with money. But security? That ship has already sailed.Chris: Yeah. Once the data is out, the data is out. Now, I will say on the bill, you get reminded of it every month, about three or four days after. It's like, “Oh. Crap, yeah, I should have turned off that EC2 instance. I just burned $100.” Or, “Oh hey, we didn't turn off that application. I just burned $100,000.” That doesn't happen on security. Security events tend to be few and far between; they're just much bigger when they happen.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to chat with me. I'm sure I'll have you back on between now and re:Inforce slash fwd:cloudsec or anything else we come up with that resembles an email subject line. If people want to learn more and follow along with your adventures—as they should—where's the best place for him to find you these days?Chris: So, I am now pretty much living on Mastodon on the InfoSec Exchange. And my website, chrisfarris.com is where you can find the link to that because it's not just at, you know, whatever. You have to give the whole big long URL in Mastodon. It's no longer—Corey: Yeah. It's like a full-on email address with weird domains.Chris: Exactly, yeah. So, find me at http colon slash slash infosec dot exchange slash at jcfarris. Or just hit Chris Farris and follow the links. For fwd:cloudsec, we are conveniently located at fwdcloudsec.org, which is F-W-D cloud sec dot org. No colons because I don't think those are valid in whois.Corey: Excellent choice. And of course, links to that go in the [show notes 00:31:32], so click the button. It's easier. Thanks again for your time. I really appreciate it.Chris: Thank you.Corey: Chris Farris, Cloud Security Nerd at Turbot slash Turbo. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment that resembles a lawsuit being filed, and then have it processed-served to me because presumably, you work at Ubiquiti.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

As Chris Schembra's guest on this episode of Gratitude Through Hard Times demonstrates every day, bringing an attitude of gratitude to the sales process fosters the kinds of quality relationships that are foundational to long-term success. Alex Ridder, VP for Global Accounts at The Adecco Group in Switzerland, has helped make the $20 billion-a-year global recruitment company the powerhouse that it is by emphasizing connection. And there's nothing squishy about it! As you'll hear highlighted throughout the show, studies and research clearly demonstrate that emotion and promotion go hand-in-hand. Chris and Alex talk about the importance of bringing empathy into the workplace, whether through expressing appreciation for team members' efforts or building trust relationships with clients. Alex explains why transactional sales are self-limiting and while holding space for people to explore pain points and reach out for support opens up infinite consultative possibility. Human interaction, these two gratitude gurus agree, is a key differentiator in the marketplace. In a world of automation and depersonalization, it's our ability to offer openness and trust that sets us apart – professionally as well as personally. Tune in to learn about the hard science that backs up the power of gratitude to build community, secure relationships and cement positive outcomes all the way around. “I don't believe gratitude has a finite limit,” says Alex, who is also an Ambassador to Adecco's Win4Youth initiative. “Interpersonal conversation creates a much more transparent and joyous conversation … which then leads to greater business outcomes.”If you enjoyed this episode and would like to learn more about Chris and his 7:47 Virtual Gratitude Experience, please visit this link. And click here to listen to previous episodes of Gratitude Through Hard Times. KEY TOPICS:If you could give credit or thanks to one person in your life that you don't give enough credit or thanks to – that you've never thought to thank – who would that be? While there are numerous people to thank on a regular basis, it's his dad Rick that Alex can never thank enough. Although “all about the numbers” as a sales guy, gratitude plays a prominent role in Alex's life that can't be quantified. It's infinite!No Destination: There is no perfect thank-you note or endpoint for expressing gratitude. It's an ongoing journey without specific metrics or obligatory reciprocity.Authentic emotion is a key ingredient when communicating gratitude. The practice isn't meant to be a check-the-box, but an expression of something heartfelt and genuine.It's a Fact: It feels good to give and to receive gratitude. Most people overestimate potential awkwardness and underestimate the good feelings they'll experience.Gratitude in Groups: In addition to the pleasures of giving and receiving, an added element of gratification and teambuilding comes from witnessing such exchanges.Peer-to-Peer Gratitude: Make it a public event to encourage the free flow of generosity, trust and affirmation.About the Difference Between Being Grateful to Some Thing and Some One: It's less about the transaction and more about the emotional journey.Here's an exercise to try: When you think about the things for which you're grateful, look for measurable, specifics to identify and articulate the why.About the Relationship Between Luck and Gratitude:Alex explains what he believes is the “soft correlation” between having a positive mentality, gratitude towards the people around you and positive outcomes.Chris explains that luck is what happens to you while gratitude is a perspective you embrace irrespective of what happens to you.How do you wake up and set intention for the day? Do you put gratitude front and center? The choice is yours – and the results undeniable!Emotion to Promotion: A Google study has demonstrated that long-term sales relationships thrive when they are based on mutual, reciprocal generosity and trust.Why human interaction is a key differentiator within hyper-competitive marketplaces:Personal touch helps uncover specific pain points.Personalized solutions distinguish themselves by not being homogenized.The stronger the relationship, the more likely a solution and sale emerge.How empathy and holistic relationships – which springs from gratitude – are game-changing superpowers when injected into the buying/selling process.About sharing market insights that Adecco clients can use to build community and connect in meaningful ways.Why eliciting gratitude also often creates serendipitous interpersonal connections that knit teams together through psychological safety and trust.Melding Atelic with Telic: The importance of immersing in activities as both journey and destination, integrating gratitude along the path to achievement and connection. QUOTABLE“There's an infinity of gratefulness that you have and as you continue to appreciate what people have done for you … I don't believe gratitude has a finite limit.” (Alex)“When your gratitude practice is mainly formulaic or commoditized, it's doing good but not using gratitude to its fullest.” (Chris)“We advocate giving gratitude when you genuinely want to give gratitude, when you genuinely feel the emotion.” (Chris)“There is a mutual gratification in giving and receiving gratitude in an altruistic way.” (Alex)“To be grateful is to be grateful to someone. Be grateful for the person behind the thing you are grateful for in a measurable and specific way.” (Chris)“A positive attitude that includes a grateful disposition towards others is going to lead to more positive interactions with others, which others might skew as lucky.” (Alex)Gratitude is a choice and perspective. You can either wake up in the morning and dwell on the negative or wake up in the morning and appreciate the good.” (Chris)“It's hard to architect luck but it's very easy to architect gratitude. The choice is yours.” (Chris)“Showing gratitude can be a strong way of starting the empathy conversation and also to really allow for a trusting environment.” (Alex)“Interpersonal conversation creates a much more transparent and joyous conversation for everyone in general, which then leads to greater business outcomes – if I'm putting my sales hat back on.” (Alex) LINKS/FURTHER RESOURCES:More about Sara Algoe's research on the power of witnessing gratitude."I Want to Thank You: How a Year of Gratitude Can Bring Joy and Meaning in a Disconnected World,"by Gina Hamadey Bergman.Think With Google: "Promotion to Emotion: Connecting B2B Customers to Brands."About the community engagement and advocacy work of Jeni Asaba at Jamf, who creates affinity groups for Apple-focused IT admins. ABOUT OUR GUEST:Alex is the Vice President for Global Accounts at The Adecco Group in Switzerland, where he takes a people-first approach to enhance client experiences through strategic and consultative engagements. As the world's leading workforce solutions company, Adecco offers flexible and permanent candidate placement, outsourcing and managed services across all sectors. Alex is deeply involved with Win4Youth the global charitable initiative of the Adecco Group. This programme encourages people throughout the world to be healthy, and through their healthy activity, the company responds with millions in donations supporting youth.  FOLLOW ALEX:WEBSITE | LINKEDIN | TWITTER|INSTAGRAM ABOUT OUR HOST:Chris Schembra is a philosopher, question asker and facilitator. He's a columnist at Rolling Stone magazine, USA Today calls him their "Gratitude Guru" and he's spent the last six years traveling around the world helping people connect in meaningful ways. As the offshoot of his #1 Wall Street Journal bestselling book, "Gratitude Through Hard Times: Finding Positive Benefits Through Our Darkest Hours,"he uses this podcast to blend ancient stoic philosophy and modern-day science to teach how the principles of gratitude can be used to help people get through their hard times. FOLLOW CHRIS:WEBSITE | INSTAGRAM | LINKEDIN | BOOKS

Today, on the Path to Well-Being in Law podcast, co-hosts Bree and Chris hear from Helen Wan, a lawyer and the author of the 2013 novel, The Partner Track, which just launched as a new TV series on Netflix. On this episode, Helen discusses her journey towards writing her novel, how to get other stories told, and how getting senior leadership to show up for important discussions on inclusiveness and equity can shift a firm's culture from one of competition to one of community. Transcript:  CHRIS NEWBOLD: Hello, well-being friends. Welcome to the Path To Well-Being In Law Podcast, an initiative of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. I am joined again by my great co-host, Bree Buchanan. My name is Chris Newbold, Executive Vice President of ALPS. Bree, I'm pretty excited about our guest today. How about you? BREE BUCHANAN: I know. We've got somebody who's really famous. CHRIS: That's right. That's right. It's always great to bring... I think it's fair to say that the legal profession in general, perceptions of it can be driven by media, television, movies, books. And I think that we are super excited to have a guest today that is really kind of sharing her novel was the basis for a Netflix series that is pretty popular right now. And so our guest today is Helen Wan. And Bree, if you could quickly talk a little bit about Helen and who she is. BREE: Absolutely. I would love to. And Chris, when you were talking about the history of portrayal of law in the media, I first thought of Legally Blonde. CHRIS: Yeah, Yeah. I always think of L.A. Law, right? Again, these are not oftentimes real perceptions of the legal profession, but the reality is people, particularly folks considering law school and other things, I think it does have, even going back to the old Perry Mason days. I think it does actually have folks look at the law through the lens, and I think the media creates some of that lens. So that's why I think this will be a really fun conversation, particularly given Helen's, the subject matter that she tackled based upon her own personal experience. BREE: I know, and I think of Helen creating this lens through which so many up-and-coming law students may see the profession. So enough about you, me, Chris. Let me talk about Helen. Helen Wan is an author and a lawyer and a graduate of Amherst College and the University of Virginia School of Law. She's the author of the 2013 novel, the Partner Track, which just launched as a new TV series on Netflix. Incredibly exciting. It's the story of an Asian American woman and her law colleagues as they compete in the culture of a prestigious global law firm. The book is taught in colleges and law schools and first-year seminars and ethics courses, and is used by law firms and companies in dialogues about DEI. And the book is being translated into several languages, including Turkish. I just think that's so interesting that partner track began as subway scribblings on a legal pad when Helen was a first-year associate at a large New York law firm. She writes primarily about how race, gender, socioeconomic, class, and culture impact am ambition in our pursuit of happiness, and I will add wellbeing. And Helen has written for the Washington Post. In fact, she has appeared on the cover of the Washington Post magazine, CNN.com, The Daily Beast and The Huffington Post among others. Before becoming a writer, Helen practiced media and intellectual property law in New York, both at law firms and as an in-house council. At the time, Inc. Division of Time Warner, Inc., A&E television networks and the Hachette Book Group USA. You could follow her on Twitter, @HelenWan1, the number one, and visit her website, at HelenWan.com. Helen, we will now let you speak. How are you? Welcome to the podcast. HELEN WAN: Hello. Thank you both for having me. It's really a pleasure to be here. BREE: Yeah, it's so great. And so Helen, I'm going to jump in and ask you just the question that we really like to start off our podcast, to take us into a place that is personal and just in our background and where we come from and how we see the world. So tell us about what are the experiences in your life that made you care about and be, I would say, even passionate about the wellbeing of those and the legal profession, particularly those from a diverse background? HELEN WAN: Sure. Well, just by way of a little background about how I even came to law school, I was born in California, but raised on the East Coast. And I went, went to undergrad in Massachusetts and then I went directly to law school. And it wasn't based on any sort of burning desire to be Perry Mason that I went directly to law school. It really was that when I was a senior trying to decide on a career path. I grew up the eldest child of first-generation Chinese American immigrants. And so there were certain kind of family-approved or culturally or society-approved careers such as law, medicine, engineering, finance, accounting. I was trying to decide on a career path and I thought, well, what is it that I'm passionate about? And it was words, working with words. And so truly, the calculus was not much more complicated than that. It was really kind of like, okay, well out of this group of careers, well, lawyers work with words. BREE: Yeah. Right. HELEN WAN: I guess, great. So I suppose, let me try the law school, the legal profession path. And I went and took the LSAT and I did well enough, I got into law schools and I picked the one where I knew I was going to get a good legal education, plus in-state tuition, because I had grown up in the northern Virginia suburbs. So there I was in law school. And then my first job out of law school was literally like Ingrid, the protagonist of the Partner Track, my first job was in the corporate mergers and acquisitions department at a large law firm in New York City. CHRIS: And Helen, obviously, I think a lot of law students, when you make that jump into that first career position, what'd you think? Did you like it? Did you detest it? Talk about your emotional mindset as you went and took that leap. HELEN WAN: Sure. So when I first landed at that firm, I truly didn't know what to expect. To be perfectly honest, I didn't have any specific expectations for that first job. But when I got there, I realized, "Oh wow." I might as well have landed on the moon because it was such a, to me at least as a young freshly minted lawyer to have landed there, it just felt like such an alien culture to me. And at that point in time, now, obviously, just to date myself, it's been decades and decades obviously since I have been in law school. But I felt like law school did not really prepare people for the cultural entry into your first law job. BREE: Right, right. HELEN WAN: Everyone there obviously had the academic goods, otherwise you're just not going to be at a place like that. But on top of that, there needed to be this extra kind of familiarity or knowledge of how the game was played, what rules really applied, and what rules nobody followed. And I just kind of felt like I didn't have the decoder ring. I felt like everyone else did. Somehow I was absent the day they passed them out. BREE: Helen, can you give some examples of that? Anything? HELEN WAN: Just the very, very first weeks we were there, they had us attend a very thorough, well-executed and beautiful orientation for the new recruits, for the new associates. And it was in a hotel ballroom. And the person sitting next to me, also, obviously another entering junior lawyer, turned to me and said, he introduced himself with his law school name and that he was on law review and that he hoped to, in three years, have done X and, in six years time have done Y. And then had everything all mapped out, his whole career plan. And I just thought to myself, oh wow, I just kind of want to get through this orientation week. He turned to me and he said, "Well, what about you? Where to you see yourself in five, 10 years from now?" And I said, "I just want to have found meaningful work and be pretty satisfied with where I am with my career and family, or what other things that I've chosen to do in life." And he said, "Oh, okay. Well, I'm in it to win it." He said to me, "Well, I'm in it to win it." BREE: I know that guy. I think we all know that guy. HELEN WAN: Oh, Bree, you know him as well? Oh, okay. It's a small world. And he said it totally unironically, totally unironically. I actually am still in touch with him, and he is a partner now. He's a senior partner. BREE: Of course. CHRIS: There you go. HELEN WAN: So it worked. BREE: Oh my gosh. Well, tell us about your book, Partner Track. HELEN WAN: So my novel, the Partner Track, which I think as you mentioned, was originally published back in 2013. It's been very interesting and I feel very fortunate that it's kind of gotten, I guess, fresh life breathed into it now, almost a decade later. I think, because there's more of a cultural lens focused on these topics, on these DEI topics now. It's timely. But I started writing the book because while I was working these 80-hour work weeks and I just needed sort of a creative outlet. And I literally started putting literal pen to paper, on paper, and I would journal about these observations and patterns that I was seeing, like who was sitting with whom in the corporate cafeteria, in the law firm lunchroom, who was being invited along on certain client pitch meetings and who was not, who was finding themselves spending good quality bonding time with certain mentors or sponsors, and who was not getting that kind of face time. So all of those kinds of things I began writing down as little sketches. And then when I found that I had a critical mass of sketches and pages, and I started showing them to a group of trusted friends, like confidants, who by the way, were not all lawyers, they were working all different kinds of industries and roles. But they had faced similar experiences in their jobs. I shared some of those pages. And then people, my friends responded like, "Nobody's telling these stories. No one's talking about these issues. Why don't you try to get some of them published?" And I had no idea how to go about getting something published. So I literally went to the bookstore and got one of those, how do you get a first book published for Dummies type books? And literally, I followed those rules and it kind of worked. BREE: That's great. I love it. CHRIS: And Helen, can you, just for our listeners who have not read the book or seen the series yet, can you just set the storyline of at what point is the book focused on? And just kind of set the table a little bit for the setup of the book. HELEN WAN: Sure. Yeah, happy to. In a nutshell, the novel follows a young Chinese American junior associate who is trying to make partner at a very, very large and prestigious and rather traditional global law firm in the New York office. And it follows not only her, although it focuses primarily on her POV, but it also focuses on the experiences of her cohort, that she's up against, competing against for partner. And what I was trying to accomplish with my novel was... Well, just personally as a reader, I love really tight ensemble cast-type novels and movies myself that talk about group dynamics in a tense kind of pressure cooker-type environment. And so that was what I was trying to bring across with my book. And I just wanted to show an underrepresented perspective on navigating that kind of corporate culture. BREE: Yeah. So this podcast, we really have spent our, I guess, 25 episodes plus, Chris, and counting on amplifying the voices of those in the wellbeing and law space. And your book, which is now a TV show, really has added to that conversation. So I'm wondering if Helen, you could have 30 minutes in a room with law firm leadership, maybe you could throw in some of the leadership from the firm you worked for, I don't know, and could talk to them about what you think they should do differently, what would you say? HELEN WAN: Well, I actually have been pretty encouraged by the evolution in the, I guess decade, since initial publication of the book until now, with the launch of the TV series, because in that intervening time, I've been lucky enough to have spoken with and seen the behind the scenes DEI strategies at a lot of different legal employers, primarily law firms. But a lot of other places too, like in-house legal departments or even the academic world. And there definitely is a lot of progress left to be made, but at least progress is being made, I think. Because when the book was first published in 2013, and I was speaking to audiences of lawyers and law students, a lot of times at a firm, it would be a beautiful, gorgeous, gorgeous cocktail party and no senior management in attendance. And hey, we're talking about diversity in the legal profession here. It would be a whole bunch of summer associates, which is great, but not a lot of visibility with the firm senior leadership. Nowadays, I think that I truly have seen a change in that way. So I see more firms really kind of putting their money where their mouth is. I have seen firms do things such as, well make it basically mandatory for all senior managers, all partners, to show up for one of these dialogues and discussions about increasing inclusiveness at the firm, the feeling of inclusiveness and equity at the firm. They do use often my book as a teaching text. And I've seen some particularly just, well, really carefully planned events where the firm even has prepared a list of discussion questions and breakout sessions and breakout groups, et cetera, that are pretty thoughtful. And the discussion turns into a really fairly meaningful one. I am encouraged by the changes that I have seen. BREE: And it seems like that kind of tracks I'm thinking in just to the general wellbeing space in that what we're seeing now is that it's become a part of the conversation. HELEN WAN: Yes. BREE: It's a start. You got to start there. You got to get people talking about it and thinking about it. But there's still a long way to go to bring about real change. Absolutely. HELEN WAN: Right. Yes, I totally agree. CHRIS: And Helen, one of the things that I think is really powerful about what you've written about, and now what the big screen is, is the perspective of associates. Because we all can envision a scenario in which, let's just call it the power structure is not tilting in your favor, which necessarily has folks competing against others in ways that sometimes are, let's just be honest, unhealthy, and then a lack of a willingness or a wherewithal to speak loudly when there are things that are unhealthy going on within the firm for stigma reasons and otherwise. And so I just think one of the things that's really interesting, and I think one of the areas of wellbeing that I think there's an associate community out there that probably really empathizes with the plight that both, you write about you went through, and just that it certainly feels like there's more on-ramps to be able to vocalize challenges that you're facing. But let's face it, 20 years ago that might not have actually been the case and actually might have been more summarily frowned upon. HELEN WAN: Yeah, absolutely. That is, I think, one of the reasons why I started my little journal scribblings to and from work, is that I was observing the same patterns happen in terms of really talented people, really talented lawyers taking themselves off the vine very early on. And then I'd ask them or have some private candid conversations with them, everyone essentially said more or less the same thing, which was, "Oh, well I could look around." And I could see that my career was not going to go smoothly here in the same way that X, Y, Z perhaps. CHRIS: And then obviously, you add gender issues and diversity issues into the mix. And boy, I just think that the story and the nature of it with kind of historical cultures in the legal profession... What you're bringing and what you're raising in terms of the consciousness and the awareness of some of these real issues that continue today, I think is a really powerful element of what will come out of your work. Hey, let's take a quick break here, hear from one of our sponsors and come back and talk a little bit more about the show and the book. Sponsor Announcer: Meet Vera, your firm's virtual ethics risk assessment guide. Developed by ALPS, Vera's purpose is to help you uncover risk management blind spots from client intake, to calendaring, to cybersecurity and more. Vera: I require only your honest input to my short series of questions. I will offer you a summary of recommendations to provide course corrections if needed, and to keep your firm on the right path. Sponsor Announcer: Generous and discrete, Vera is a free and anonymous risk management guide from ALPS, to help firms like yours be their best. Visit Vera at alpsinsurance.com/Vera. BREE: Welcome back everybody to the Well-Being In Law Podcast. And today we have author Helen Wan, who wrote the book Partner Track in 2013, and has now been turned into a television show that was just recently released, because I started to watch it and I love it, Helen, it was the beginning I think, of August 2022. But what was it like to work on turning that book and to a TV show? HELEN WAN: Truly, it's been a very thrilling ride. Because I just never, never, never, over two decades ago when I began writing the book, I never would've expected that the stars would align in this way and that one day I would be walking, literally would be able to be walking through Times Square in Manhattan and look up and see the Partner Track featured on the big old gigantic Netflix digital billboard. BREE: Helen, that gave me chills. HELEN WAN: Yeah, it really did. It really did, Bree. I stood there and I just stood there for a couple minutes. It just was amazing because I just stood there and watched the loop several times. So there's Ozark, Stranger Things, Squid Game and Partner Track. I was like, "Wow. Okay." BREE: Oh my gosh, I wish I could have seen a film of that, of you seeing that. CHRIS: What's been the biggest surprise to you since the launch? And obviously, Netflix has a worldwide audience. And so I got to imagine that quite a few folks have come out of your history and your background to reach back out to you. And I'm just kind of curious on what the biggest surprise was? HELEN WAN: Yeah, you kind of hit the nail on the head. I have been lucky enough to be hearing from so many old dear friends and colleagues and I heard from my high school prom date. I heard from my prom date, I heard from my a middle school English teacher. And it's just been pretty amazing. Who knew so many people read Variety or Hollywood Reporter. BREE: Yeah. HELEN WAN: It's been amazing. And the other, probably the best and happiest surprise for me has been just the tremendously positive and enthusiastic support that the show has gotten. But not just from lawyers or groups of law students or even groups of women lawyers or Asian American lawyers or what have you, no particular this community or that community or that community. Just people in general just from all quarters. And that has been just really positive and encouraging for me to see. BREE: No kidding. So Helen, looking back, now that you have the benefit of being able to deploy hindsight, a 20/20 vision, what would you have done differently? What do you wish that you had known when you started? What was the decoder? [inaudible 00:26:54]. HELEN WAN: Now that I'm a lot older and a little bit wiser, I would like to think... I think I just would've walked in there with more self-confidence, to be honest. I think that I would've walked into not just that particular law firm role, but every job that I have helped since with, just with more confidence that I could try to bring my, I know this is kind of a cliche way to say it, but bring my authentic self to work. And if it didn't work, then I would know that, hey, perhaps it's time to seek out someplace that perhaps is more where I would feel more included or would feel more valued, or perhaps the values of that particular workplace would be more aligned with my own. So I think that I would've just walked in with more confidence and not hold the belief that, hey, okay, what a legal employer wants is someone who just lives, breathes the law 24/7. Because that's not true. What they want is, I think, happy people who are pleasant to be around. I wish I had come to that conclusion sooner because I think that I would've wasted less time kind of spinning my wheels. BREE: Yeah. And being able to have the belief that when you walk into that space, you deserve to be there. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. CHRIS: I'm curious, as you reflect on the book, the storyline, and so forth, do you see it as a cautionary tale, an expose, a tutorial? I think you shared in the storylines just a number of, I think, very interesting elements to a journey. Again, with gender, with race, with first-generation elements and even remarking upon the person who's like, "I'm in it to win it." But I'm just curious on how you look at the storyline today versus obviously when you wrote the book almost a decade ago. HELEN WAN: It's funny, I did not think of it as an expose when I was writing. Truly, what I was trying to do when I first began this project, it was just kind of like my creative outlet, my written therapy from a stressful week at work. But then it eventually evolved into a proper story arc and it populated with different, more perspectives and more characters. Truly, I wrote it just as of my creative outlet. It was sort of my way to have well-being in the law. I needed to have a creative outlet, and so that was mine. BREE: Absolutely. And do you have advice for law students or those contemplating a legal career? What could you say to them? HELEN WAN: I think the best advice someone could have given me back when I was trying to embark on my first steps in my legal career would be just to take more time to really ask the savvy questions about the workplace's environment and culture before making any decisions. Because I realized fairly early on when I got to my first law job that, oh, okay, I don't think that this culturally is the right fit for me. Now, that's not to say anything about anybody else's decision because personally, I have very good friends who are senior law partners now and are really good at their jobs and just amazing lawyers. So it's each person. It's person by person, obviously. For me, that was not the right fit culturally. And I think that I would've taken the time to do a little more research, to ask smarter questions, to understand before making any decisions. And also to realize that hey, just because just you can continue grabbing more gold stars, you don't have to. CHRIS: Yeah, I think it's very interesting that one of the things that I makes me optimistic that well-being will continue to become a more prominent conversation topic, particularly in the big law community, is the fact that I think the most talented law students coming out are asking more of the tougher questions on the front end. There used to be, I think again, oh, I really want to get in at that particular firm because that will cement a pathway for me to success. Where generationally now, there's a little bit more of a, I know that I have a lot to offer, but I also am coming at this with more appropriate expectations as to what my work-life balance might look like and are asking those questions as part of the interview process. So it's a two-way hiring street versus kind of a one-way. And if we've gotten there, that I think can be a catalyst to the culture shift that firms, what they value in terms of talent acquisition and talent retention, changes the game quite a bit. And I think that your story and the Partner Track sheds some interesting new light on some of those kind of realistic elements of culture in firms that I think will play out, I think, in very interesting ways in the years to come. HELEN WAN: Yeah, Well thank you for that compliment because yeah, I've been fortunate enough to be speaking with lots of groups of law students and their law profs. And these students are really just asking very wise questions, questions about their future employers. And not just about future employers, but just about the state of the profession generally, or really asking things like, okay, well at this place, what is the partner group makeup? How long did that person take to make a partner? How many partners? And what is the path to partner? Is it clearly laid out? What happens... These are all very savvy questions that I, to be honest, I personally did not even know to ask when I was a 2L or 3L. BREE: Yeah. I think Chris and I both are first generation to go into law. And absolutely, you don't have somebody laying that down for you. You don't know what you're supposed to ask and those questions and things. CHRIS: Yeah. And the waters can obviously be pretty choppy when you don't have perspective and then you come into environments in which, let's just say that the environment can be some welcoming, some not so welcoming and then with undertones that you would've never known before. HELEN WAN: Right, yes. And I will add too though, that sometimes some of these instances where I did not necessarily feel very included in conversations or whatever the circumstance was, I don't feel that it was intentional or necessarily intentional or blatantly racist or sexist or anything. It's what you know, who you know, what is comfortable and familiar to you. And one thing that happened to me, which really made me want to start writing this, was that I was invited, see, I was invited along to a lunch along with some other, my cohort, who had also just entered the firm recently. And it was at a fancy steakhouse-type restaurant. And the conversation turned to sailing and sailing camp. Now, I had never been to sailing camp in my entire life, but apparently everybody else had, or I don't know, but apparently, to me, they all had. So he was talking about, "Oh my gosh. Well okay, I went to this sailing camp. Oh my goodness, do you know," blah, blah, blah. "Yes, we went to summer camp all of the time together and then we went to this academy together before college and law school." So I was like politely trying to listen and trying to get a word in edgewise. And sometimes I would succeed, but then no one was intentionally trying to exclude me from being a part of the conversation, obviously, it's just that I had no way to join that conversation and no one was allowing that foothold into the conversation. And so when I would try to get a word in edgewise, inevitably, the conversation would soon quickly turn back to sailing. And that's when I was like, hey, I'm going to take the legal pad and start writing this stuff down. And decades later, now it's on Netflix though. BREE: There you go. CHRIS: Yeah. Well, so much of what... I know that we did a kind of mini-series on the podcast on the nexus between and the inherent nexus between diversity, equity, inclusion, and this sense of what I think you're getting at, which is also the sense of belonging, right? And sometimes not having the context to feel like you can be part of conversations because you don't have the shared experience. And I just think that's a real element that sometimes has people feeling like they're just, maybe this isn't my place. And that maybe not be intentional, but the reality is that there are elements to that and they're real. HELEN WAN: Right. Yes, absolutely. CHRIS: Well, Helen, this was a great podcast and I appreciate, we had a chance to meet back in August in Chicago. Helen was the keynote speaker in front of the National Conference of Women's Bar Associations, where I had a chance to meet her before the series dropped. And I could immediately tell that Helen has a passion for seeing people want to ultimately find professional satisfaction in the practice of law. And again, her willingness to be able to, I think, identify some of the real issues that associates face in their journey in the legal profession, I think will kind of continue to serve as an important part of the well-being conversation moving forward. So Helen, thank you so much for joining us and we continue to want to incorporate you into well-being activities with the Institute for Well-Being in Law, and thanks for sharing your experience. BREE: Absolutely. Thank you. HELEN WAN: Thank you both so much for inviting me today. It was a pleasure. CHRIS: All right, we will be back in a couple weeks with the next podcast. And until then, be well out there friends.  

Chris: Before we dive into too many specific topics, one thing I wanted to ask is, you've been working in/around the topic of SBOM and Software Supply Chain for sometime via NTIA, CycloneDX, SCVS etc. How did you have the foresight or what drove you to focus on this topic well before many others in the industry?Nikki: You mentioned recently about the SBOM Forum and their recommendation of the NVD adopt Package URL. I think the recommendations are great for NVD, because the NVD, CVE ID mechanisms, and CWE's weren't technically built for al ot of the updated vulnerabilities and concerns we see today, especially in the software supply chain. Can you talk a little bit about the challenges around vulnerability management when it comes to software supply chain?Chris: I wanted to ask you about SaaSBOM which has been a topic of discussion in the CISA SBOM WG that I know you and I participate in. What is a SaaSBOM in your mind and where does it begin and end, given most of the Cloud, including Infrastructure is software-defined.  Nikki: I liked your article titled "SBOM should not exist! Long live the SBOM" - what really caught me was the idea that BOM's or Bill of Materials have been around for a while, and in other industries as well. I'm curious because there are a lot of potential implications for using BOM's outside of software. What are you thoughts on how we could potentially use the idea of BOMs in other cybersecurity or software development areas? Chris: I want to discuss some critiques of SBOM. VEX Is promising but of course requires information from software producers, and then of course trusting their assertions. VEX: Do you see a future where both SBOM and VEX and automated in terms of generation and ingestion to inform organizational vulnerability management and potentially procurement activities? Nikki: I would be re-missed if I didn't ask you about the human element in all of this. I fee like the complexity of the software supply chain, on top of infrastructure, operations, cloud deployments, etc, can get somewhat complex. How do you think the increased complexity around software supply chain is affecting the management and operations groups?Chris: You have long been the lead on the wildly popular Dependency Track project. Can you tell us a bit about its origins, where it stands today and where it is headed?Chris: There has been a lot of guidance lately on Software Supply Chain, such as NIST EO outputs from Section 4, NIST SSDF, guidance from CSA, CNCF et. al - how does SCVS fit into the mix and do you see organizations using all, or rallying around some of the guidance? Chris Follow Up: Some have claimed that these requirements are simply impractical for anyone except large enterprise organizations and software producers. Any thoughts on the practicality of the guidance for smaller organizations who still play a major role in the software ecosystem?

SUMMARYIs your wounded inner child still in charge of your emotional playlist? Maybe it's time to update the soundtrack of your life! Host Chris Schembra's amazing guest on this episode of Gratitude Through Hard Times has developed a powerful program based on an interesting trifecta of tools for growth. As Susan Drumm explains in her new book, "The Leader's Playlist: Unleash the Power of Music and Neuroscience to Transform Your Leadership Style and Your Life," when paired with our most authentic selves, neuroscience and music can shift ingrained habits of thought with transformational results. Her concrete case studies illustrate how our brains can be highjacked – or healed – by the “anchor songs” we play in our heads. As CEO of Meritage Leadership Development, Susan's mission is nothing less than ushering in a new era of enlightened leadership. How? By shifting often outdated ideas and associations embedded within our deeply grooved neural pathways, we can reimagine the background music that sets the tone for everyday life choices. Offering a detailed step-by-step methodology for forging new patterns of thought, Susan is inviting all of us to release negative narratives as old as those hit summer songs we loved back in high school.You'll learn in this lively conversation about how we function at our highest level – and, quite literally, at our most potent energetic vibrations – when we bring awareness, acknowledgement and a new frame of reference. The Leader's Playlist is an innovative program that unlocks empowerment through one of neuroscience's well-documented treatments for childhood trauma and other psychic injuries: Music. Susan is urging: “We all need to collectively look in the mirror and say: ‘Where are we leading from old wounds and what needs to shift and heal so collectively we can all get to a higher level of enlightened leadership?' ” Ready to unlock the secrets of your own  "Leader's Playlist"? The time to start is now!Click here to find out all about Susan's debut book, "The Leader's Playlist: Unleash the Power of Music and Neuroscience to Transform Your Leadership Style and Your Life." And if you want to turbocharge, consider her upcoming master class, which you can register for here.If you'd like to learn more about Chris and his 7:47 Virtual Gratitude Experience, please visit this link. And click here to listen to previous episodes of Gratitude Through Hard Times. KEY TOPICS:If you could give credit or give thanks to one person in your life that you don't give enough credit or thanks to, who would that be?About Susan's framework, which is uniquely applicable to everyone because it uses music as a vehicle. Want to motivate growth in others? It starts with authentically believing in them, which undergirds development through the toughest of times and steepest of learning curves.Turning Early Childhood Trauma into a Superpower: Susan shares what she's observed and personally experienced when formative wounding triggers reactivity.About the metaphorical playlist that is the soundtrack to each of our lives and – whether you're aware of it or not – may be impacting your efficacy as a leader.Adaptive Upside: When he was raging, Susan's father could cast a long and frightening shadow. As a result? She developed a keen ability to read the room, intuit potential derailment and diffuse tension -- survival skills that are a great asset in coaching.When Stress Yields Gems: Trauma response can induce PTSD, but it can also spark skills that can be leveraged to create post-traumatic growth Music As a Healing Tool: Susan shares how she unlocked her neural pathways – and deeply embedded, reflexively negative feelings – in order to move from seething resentment  to a positive orientation.Create Your Own Empowerment Playlist! It's possible to choose songs that resonate in ways that bring optimism, healing and connection. Redirecting old neural pathways that do not serve, and carving out new ones that are more life-giving, can make permanent mindset change. That doesn't mean, however, that you'll never again find yourself defaulting to those old “neural highways to hell.”About Micro Interventions: One strategy for creating a desired shift is intervention in thoughts through the introduction of music.The Music of Healing: Susan helps her clients recover and shift by working with them to identify where they're stuck internally, usually rooted in patterns of thought that do not serve but can be re channeled in empowering ways.Music Lights Up All Regions of the Brain: Sense memory is stimulated by sound vibration and can be harnessed to shift energy.Higher versus Lower Emotions – Gratitude and peace vibrate at high levels while grief and sadness reside in lower levels. What do we do with that information?We can't dismiss or ignore difficult feelings, which carry messages.Rather than dwell in negativity, we can opt to acknowledge pain and move on.Well-practiced patterns of thoughts can be redirected through intentionality.Do you have ingrained neural pathways you'd like to change? There are multiple methods:Hypnotherapy.Psychedelic-assisted therapy.Meditation.Music intervention.A Case Study: From Lynyrd Skynyrd's Freebird to George Michael's Freedom.Susan deconstructs how she successfully coached an executive whose maverick leadership was alienating his team and stymying his business's growth.1) First she helped him excavate and learn how to interrupt his “I am Trapped” playlist – a medley of songs based on outdated beliefs that were not serving him.2) She helped him put in place a new “I Won't Let You Down” playlist to replace self-limiting, self-defeating beliefs with messages of stewardship balanced with freedom.Chris reflects on his longtime favorite “hype-up” song, Non-Stop from the musical “Hamilton” and how he applied Susan's framework to understand that his associations to the song were inauthentic and unsustainable.Susan and Chris review steps towards revising our playlists, including recognizing “bellyful” moments and getting curious (rather than judgmental). You are not alone if your playlist needs a refresh! Most of us are overdue to up-level our lives by re-envisioning the songs that provide the background music for our lives! QUOTABLE“Just because the world's going through a pretty tough time doesn't mean we can't find meaningful moments of connection, of hope, of optimism and positivity!” (Chris)“There are only so many ways that you can help a leader be a better leader. We all have to have our unique element and original framework.” (Chris)“Those of you who know this podcast, you know that my whole schtick in life is gratitude – how do we help people become more grateful for themselves, for others, for their situations, to build better business and live longer, happier, more successful lives?” (Chris)“I had a neural pathway grooved to my brain that was like an eight-lane highway and it wasn't just about this instant. I could trace it to the low points of my life and feeling frustrated, left out and treated unfairly.” (Susan)“I'd put a song on and it would shift my state. (My empowerment playlist) really gave me a choice not to go down the eight-lane highway to hell but to start to groove a new pathway.” (Susan)“The more I listened to (healing) music and the more I practiced that emotional resonance, the more it went from a country road to a two-lane highway to a four-lane highway and finally my own eight-lane highway that I can choose to go down.” (Susan)“We're not just talking about using music only to shift state – which it can do and that's the power – but it's also to uncover some of this deeper wounding, deeper patterning.” (Susan)“Is non-stop what I aspire for my life to be? … Hustling that hard develops emotional impotence. It took Susan's book for me to wake up to that.” (Chris)“Usually suffering is the impetus to make change. I wish it wasn't the case, but the reality is that it's not until … we get these wakeup calls and they are gifts from the universe to help us know it's time to make a shift, it's time to grow.” (Susan) LINKS/FURTHER RESOURCES:Summit Series – Global networking for change makers.Click here to learn more about micro interventions and how they work!Here's an infectious song that Chris has used to motivate himself at times: Non-Stop from the musical “Hamilton.” ABOUT OUR GUEST:Susan is a CEO Advisor and Leadership Coach as well as founder of Meritage Leadership, with over 20 years of experience leading teams and senior executives to achieve their potential. She has graduate degrees from Harvard Law School, Carnegie Mellon, and an M.A. in Drama from London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art. Combining her strategy and business background with experience as an actress in theater and film, Susan helps clients become extraordinary leaders and influencers. Her consulting firm, Meritage Leadership, focuses on leader and team effectiveness by helping leaders develop the capacity and mindsets to lead in today's disruptive environment — while inspiring their teams to do the same. FOLLOW Susan:WEBSITE | LINKEDIN | PODCAST ABOUT OUR HOST:Chris Schembra is a philosopher, question asker and facilitator. He's a columnist at Rolling Stone magazine, USA Today calls him their "Gratitude Guru" and he's spent the last six years traveling around the world helping people connect in meaningful ways. As the offshoot of his #1 Wall Street Journal bestselling book, "Gratitude Through Hard Times: Finding Positive Benefits Through Our Darkest Hours,"he uses this podcast to blend ancient stoic philosophy and modern-day science to teach how the principles of gratitude can be used to help people get through their hard times. FOLLOW CHRIS:WEBSITE | INSTAGRAM | LINKEDIN | BOOKS

What you'll learn in this episode: How your location affects SEO, and why firms in major metros need to market differently than rural or suburban firms How traditional advertising and brand building can complement SEO What end-to-end SEO is, and why Chris' company does nothing but SEO How long you can expect to work with an SEO firm before seeing results Why it's better to not do SEO at all than do it halfheartedly About Chris Dreyer Chris Dreyer is the CEO and Founder of Rankings.io, an SEO agency that helps elite personal injury law firms land serious injury and auto accident cases through Google's organic search results. His company has the distinction of making the Inc. 5000 list four years in a row. Chris's journey in legal marketing has been a saga, to say the least. A world-ranked collectible card game player in his youth, Chris began his “grown up” career with a History Education degree and landed a job out of college as a detention room supervisor. The surplus of free time in that job allowed him to develop a side hustle in affiliate marketing, where (at his apex) he managed over 100 affiliate sites simultaneously, allowing him to turn his side gig into a full-time one. When his time in affiliate marketing came to an end, he segued into SEO for attorneys, while also having time to become a top-ranked online poker player. Today, Chris is the CEO and founder of Rankings.io, an SEO agency specializing in elite personal injury law firms and 4x consecutive member of the Inc. 5000. In addition to owning and operating Rankings, Chris is a real estate investor and podcast host, as well as a member of the Forbes Agency Council, the Rolling Stone Culture Council, Business Journals Leadership Trust, Fast Company Executive Board, and Newsweek Expert Forum. Chris's first book, Niching Up: The Narrower the Market, the Bigger the Prize, is slated for release in late 2022. Additional Resources Chris Dreyer LinkedIn Rankings.io Twitter Rankings.io Facebook Rankings.io Instagram Transcript: SEO is a complicated beast. If you want to conquer it, you have to go in ready to swing, according to Chris Dreyer. As CEO of Rankings.io, Chris specializes in working with personal injury lawyers and law firms to get them on the first page of Google in competitive markets. He joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about how the “proximity factor” affects Google rankings; why your content is the first area to target if you want to improve your rankings; and how SEO, digital marketing and traditional advertising all work together to build your brand. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Welcome to The Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Chris Dreyer, CEO of Rankings.io. His firm specializes in working with elite personal injury firms, helping them to generate auto accident and other cases involving serious personal injury. He does this through Google's organic keyword search rankings which, to me, is quite a challenge. This is a very competitive market, and it's one that requires a very healthy budget if you're going to be successful. Today, Chris is going to tell us about his journey and some of what he's learned along the way. Chris, welcome to the program. Chris: Sharon, thanks so much for having me. Sharon: Great to have you. Tell us about your career path. You weren't five years old saying this is what you wanted to do. Chris: I've always been an entrepreneur. I saw my uncle. My uncle's a very successful business CEO for many organizations. He's had a really interesting career path. I told my parents before I went to college that no matter what I got a degree in, I was going to start and own my business at one point, and they were on the same page. I ended up getting a history education degree. I was a teacher, and I was working in a detention room when I typed in “how to make money online,” probably the worst query you could possibly type in. But I found a basic course that taught me the fundamentals of digital marketing and I pursued that. By the end of my second year teaching, I was making about four times the amount from that than I got from teaching. So, I went all in and did some affiliate marketing. I had some ups and downs with that. Then I went and worked for another agency and rose to their lead consultant. Then I had an epiphany and thought, “I think I can do this myself. I think I can do it better,” and that's what I did. That's when I started. At the time, it was attorney rankings. Sharon: Wow! Had you played around with attorney rankings before, when you were a teacher and just typing away? Chris: When I worked for this digital agency that's no longer in business, they were a generalist agency, but they worked with many law firms and attorneys. I was their lead account manager. I just enjoyed working with them. I enjoyed the competition and the satisfaction I would get from ranking a site in a more competitive vertical. That's how I chose legal. I wanted to look for something that had a longstanding business. I didn't want to jump into something fast or tech-related that could be changing all the time; I wanted something with a little bit more longevity. Sharon: Did you ever want to be a lawyer yourself? Chris: I ask that to myself all the time. I think about it now, mainly because of all the relationships I have, how easy it could be for a referral practice. We have our own agency and I know how to generate leads now. So, I ask myself that a lot. That's a 2½ to 3-year commitment. You never know; I may end up getting my degree. Sharon: There are a lot of history majors who went into law and then probably decided they wanted to do something else, so that's a great combination you have. It's Rankings.io. What's the .io? Chris: There are these new top-level domain extensions. There are .org, .net, .com. Now you see stuff like .lawyer or .red. There are all kinds of different categories of those domains. Tech companies frequently use .io, standing for “input” and “output.”  How I look at it, or how I make the justification for it, is that if you invest in us, you get cases—input/output. Sharon: Can you make up your own top level or is there a list somewhere? Chris: There's a big list. GoDaddy and NameSheet.com have many of them. In legal specifically, there's .law, there's . attorney, there's .lawyer, I believe even .legal. Most industries have their own top-level domain extension now. Sharon: I've seen .io, but I never knew what it stood for. You don't see it that often. I happened to be Googling somebody in Ireland the other day. Most of the places were using .com, but this was using .ie, and I thought, “What is .ie?” but it turns out it was Ireland. Tell us a little about your business. What kinds of clients do you have? Is there seasonality? Chris: We help personal injury attorneys. We primarily work with personal injury law firms that are midsize to large. Typically not solo practitioners and new firms, but more established firms trying to break into major markets in metropolitan areas, your Chicagos, your Philadelphias, your bigger cities that have a lot of competition. We've been around since 2013. We don't work with a high volume of clients because our investments are higher, because to rank in these big cities takes a lot of quantitative actions, a lot of production. We currently work with around 45 to 50 firms, and that's what we do. We do search engine optimization for personal injury law firms. Sharon: Search engine optimization for personal injury law firms. To me, that seems like a lot. It's great. Are these typically smaller firms that are in—I don't know—Podunk, Iowa, and they say, “I want to go to the big city”? Is that what happens? Chris: Typically, it's one of two things. It's either a TV, radio, traditional advertiser that wants to focus more on digital that has a larger investment. They have more capital to invest. Or, it's someone that wants to get creative and focus on digital to try to take market share away from the big TV advertisers. Most of the time it's individuals in big cities because there are tons of personal injury attorneys. Right now, I'm in Marion, Illinois. There's a handful of attorneys. Most of them aren't focused on marketing. Just by the nature of having a practice, they typically show up in the Map Pack. That's not the case in Chicago. You actually have to aggressively market to show up on the first page of Google. Sharon: If somebody's already spending a lot of money on TV or radio or billboards in Chicago, are your clients people who have turned around and said, “I can do better if I put this money all into digital and rankings.” Does that happen? Chris: I personally am not an “or.” I'm an “and.” You did TV? Well, let's also do SEO. Let's also do pay-per-click. I like the omnichannel approach. I think there are two types of marketing. There is lead generation and direct response. That's your pay-per-click, your SEO, things like that. Then there's demand generation and brand building. The thing about demand generation and brand building is they actually complement direct response, and you can get lower cost per acquisition. To give you an example, if you're a big TV advertiser and have an established brand, and someone types something into Google, you may capture that click because they recognize your company as opposed to someone that isn't as known. I think they all work together. Of course, we're always playing the attention arbitrage game. We want to go to the locations where our money can carry the most weight to get us the most attention. For example, right now, individuals are going to TikTok and Instagram Reels and YouTube Shorts because there isn't the same amount of competition there. That's where a lot of tension and competition are occurring. It's a constant game, and it's something to be apprised of and aware of what's going on. Sharon: Is that something you also do in terms of rankings? Do you do TikTok or Instagram or anything like that, or Google My Business? Is it all of those? Chris: We use that ourselves to market our business because we're omnichannel, but for our clients, we focus solely on design and SEO. That's simply because we have intense focus and expertise in those areas. We want to be the best in the world and really dialed in to all the fundamental changes that occur. But knowing that limitation, knowing that there is more effort and sacrifice if someone wants to come to us because we don't do everything, we like to be aware of who is providing services in those other areas. Who's the best at pay-per-click, who's the best at social media. We try to make it as easy as possible to get our clients help in those areas too. Sharon: How do you keep up with everything? There are so many different things. Chris: Obsession. I think of it as a game. I always tell people that running a digital agency is like a game that pays me. I truly believe that, because I enjoy what I do. I don't love the quote that if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life. I don't believe that's completely true, but I don't have the same stressors and I enjoy what I do. So, that's an obsession. Sharon: So that's dinner-table talk. Chris: Oh, yeah. Sharon: What keeps you attracted to attorneys? A lot of people say, “O.K., I've had it.” What keeps you attracted? Chris: I think they're providing a good service to the common individual and fighting against big insurance companies. Generally, they get a bad rap, particularly personal injury attorneys. They're referred to as ambulance chasers. Sometimes individuals get creative, and they refer to me and our agency as an ambulance-chaser chaser. But in general, they're the plaintiffs; they're trying to help individuals that have been injured. I think where they get a bad rap is sometimes people are banging down their doors and soliciting them right after they're injured or in the hospital bed. Other times, you'll see these big billboards where it's like, “How could you possibly put that up on a billboard?” There's a complete lack of EQ or empathy. It's like, “Congratulations. You just lost a leg. Contact us,” or “Congratulations. Someone's seriously hurt.” It's just the wrong messaging. That's where they get a bad rap, but the overwhelming majority are truly trying to provide value and help these injured victims. Sharon: Do you ever work with defense firms or law firms that aren't personal injury? Chris: That's a good question. Our focus and expertise is personal injury, and what I tell other businesses and my peers is that it gives us optionality. If I think we can help a law firm and we can serve them and continue to provide extreme value, we will selectively take those opportunities. Right now we have about 45 clients, and I think three of them aren't personal injury law firms. It just happened to be the perfect prospect for us. They were in competitive markets. They had these clearly defined goals and brands, and we wanted to help them. Sharon: How about other legal services, like—I forget; I think it's Legal Voice or something like that. If it's a graphics firm that does graphics for trials, do you work with that kind of firm? Chris: We've worked with some. I can't think of any specifically. I would say our business is more focused on the front end, the marketing and awareness side, and less on the sales intake or operations side. Operations would be your trials and customer service and things like that. At this point in time, we're focused solely on lead generation, and that's an issue upon itself. Our job is to overwhelm the sales department. Intake is a whole different ballgame. Sometimes intake has to be addressed, but it's not us. We have referrals that we give for that. Sharon: Do you work with only lawyers, or do you work with marketing directors at these firms? Who are you typically working with? Chris: Most of the time it's the lead attorney. There are some firms that have a CMO or a marketing manager, but I would say that's the minority. When they get a CMO, typically it's at your higher eight-figure or nine-figure firms, and they will start to bring these services in-house. So, most of the time it's still the lead attorney. Sharon: You used a term I hadn't heard before, end-to-end SEO. What does that mean? Chris: It's a great question. A lot of digital agencies that are full-service, they'll offer design and social and PPC. They have a very narrow span of control, meaning you get assigned a SEO specialist, and that SEO specialist is supposed to be able to write content, optimize your site, do your local SEO, do your link building. Look, I don't believe in unicorns. I don't think people have the skillset to do all of those. So, when I say end-to-end, we have a dedicated content department with writers; we have a dedicated, on-site SEO and technical department to optimize your site; we have a dedicated local department that only works with local maps and helps you on the Map Pack; we have a dedicated link-building department. It's the full spectrum of SEO as opposed to getting these generalists, where maybe they're good at one thing and not good at the other things. Sharon: Do you think your market understands the term end-to-end SEO? Chris: Probably not. I probably should work on the copyrighting a little bit, but I do like to make that distinction. Even though we're specialists and do only SEO, you can take it a step farther. If you look at how we staff, everybody's a SEO specialist, as opposed to it being an add-on or backend service. Sharon: The Map Pack, is that where you have the top three local firms on a map near you, when you search “Starbucks near me” or “Personal injury firm near me”? I say Starbucks because we did that last weekend. I know things are always changing, but if it's a one- or two-person personal injury firm and they don't have the budget you're talking about, can they do anything themselves? What do you recommend? Chris: That's a good question. If you don't have a budget, try to scrape your budget together and get a website made the easiest way you can, whether it's a WordPress site or a template. That's your main conversion point. Try to get your practice area pages and your sales pages created as an outlet for conversions. If you don't have a big budget and you're in a metropolitan area, I would encourage you to look at other opportunities to generate business, potentially on-the-ground, grassroots business development practices where you're making relationships with other attorneys. That can carry a lot of weight and get you started. SEO is a zero-sum game. Either you rank in the top positions or you don't, and if you don't, you're not going to get the clicks. If you're on the second page of Google, you might as well be on the 90th page. No one goes to page two. So, if you're going to do SEO, you can't just dip your toe into it. You've got to go in ready to swing and ready to do the quantitative actions to get results. Otherwise, you might as well not do it at all. You might as well choose a different channel. Sharon: That's interesting. So, if you Google your firm and find you're on the second page, should you just give it up and say, “O.K., I'm not going to do anything in this area”? Chris: If you're working with an SEO agency and you're on the second page of Google, I would tell you to—well, first of all, depending upon the length of time you've been with them, if you've given them sufficient time, then I would say you probably need a different SEO agency. If you are on the second page of Google and you're not doing SEO, that's O.K. You could still rank for your brand, your firm name, particularly some of the attorney names, the name of their company. There are probably not going to be many of those. You're probably going to rank for that. I would find a different way to generate leads. It may even mean working for someone else to generate revenue before you go in and start your own practice. Sharon: So, being a lawyer in a law firm first and getting your feet wet that way. You mentioned something about the length of time. How long should you give a firm before you say, “O.K., thanks”? Chris: I'm going to give the lawyer answer here. It depends. If you've been doing SEO for a long time and you have a tremendous amount of links and content, it could be a technical SEO coding issue, maybe a site architecture issue. Maybe you need as little as 90 days to truly make a huge impact. We just took on a client in Florida that had a tremendous amount of links, a tremendous amount of content. We literally just unclogged the sink, so to speak, and they're skyrocketing in a short amount of time. If you're in a major market and you just got your website built and you don't have links, it's going to take some time. All of these SEO specialists will say it takes six months. That's completely untrue. It's based upon the gap. What are you benchmarking against? What does the data show? It could be nine months; it could be 14 months based upon the quantitative actions you're taking. If you don't take the correct quantitative actions, you could be treading water, too. So, it really depends. You can see results quickly. It just depends on where you're at in your state for your firm. Sharon: Since you work with attorneys, I'm sure more than once you've heard, “Chris, I've waited three months. What's going on? How long do I have to wait? We're pouring money into this.” What's your response? Chris: That's a great question. We try to set those expectations on the front end before we even sign them as a client, but occasionally those situations will slip through. Maybe we didn't have those conversations enough or they weren't clear enough. We have a series in our onboarding called “Teach Our Clients Not to Be Crazy.” I'm being really transparent here. Clients become crazy when expectations were not set. If they're set in the front end when we sign them and it's part of our onboarding processes, we say, “This is how long it's going to take to get results.” We're not three months down the road getting that, because we already told them on the front end this is how long it will take. The same for your operation processes like content or reporting. You report our meeting cadences, your communication preferences, all these things. We do that in our “Teach Our Clients Not to Be Crazy.” That's the biggest issue. Most individuals don't have those expectations set well enough on the front end. Sharon: So, you basically say, “It depends. I don't know. We'll have to see. We have to look at your website.” Do you start usually by looking at the site architecture? Do you change—I forget what you call it—the headings at the top of the page, things that are searchable? Chris: We have a very thorough diagnostic that uses a lot of data from different APIs, Ahrefs, and other tools that help us with benchmarking and setting these goals and KPIs. We look at three primary pillars. We'll look at their content to see if it's targeting keywords properly, if it's well-written, if they're missing content. We'll look at their architecture, like you said, to see if the information is easily accessible, if they can Google the website and the consumer can find the information they're looking for, if it loads quickly. Then we will look at their backlink profile to see if they have enough endorsements. If you're trying to win an election, you want to get as many votes as possible. If you're trying to win the first page of Google, you want to get as many high-quality links as possible. So, we'll take a look at that too. There are a lot of subcategories to those, but those are the big, top-level things we look at. Sharon: Of course, we're a PR firm and we do a lot of PR, a lot of article writing for the media. We've had SEO companies say, “I want to see the article before you post it. I want to pump it up, add words, delete words.” Do you do things like that, or is that more on the PR side? Chris: I'll be transparent. I don't love it because it hurts things from a throughput perspective and getting it to the end. It's a bottleneck. It delays things. We do heavy, up-front analysis of the content to try to identify voice and their style. We go through a style guide and try to identify their taglines. It's very cumbersome up front. Then we try to get their permission to not do the approval process. Not everyone will allow us to do that, but we like to say it delays us. If we're an SEO agency and we write 40 articles a month, and if the client takes a month to approve them, we don't have any content to market. So, we try to avoid that when we can. Sharon: Yeah, lawyers didn't go to law school for SEO; they went to be lawyers. Chris: And I think there's this perception where they think everybody in the world is going to see the content. We can publish the content then make edits post-production. I know that's a bit different from what you do, Sharon, with PR, but for us, we can control and make changes. You see something you don't like, we'll just change it. Sharon: How important is money? You emphasize that in your own marketing. There's always a debate with personal injury firms. Do people care about warm fuzzies, or do they care about your wins? What do you look at? Chris:   That's a deep question. I'm a big fan of Naval Ravikant, and he talks about— Sharon: I'm sorry, who? Chris: Naval Ravikant. He talks about people's motivations based upon status or wealth. Status is a zero-sum game; there's a winner and a loser. A lot of attorneys love trial because there's a winner and a loser. Sports is a zero-sum game. So, there's status orientation. Then there's wealth. Wealth is not a zero-sum game. Many individuals can be wealthy. So, it depends on their demeanor. I think some of them are more status-oriented and want to be the heavy-hitting trial attorneys and peacock and be the man, but then there are others that don't care. They'll let the other individuals shine and they're more wealth oriented. You see this a lot in society. Individuals will choose to go against common things, but they're doing it because it's a status play. It brings them status to be against the big billionaires or whoever. That's a whole different conversation we'll probably want to avoid, but that's the way I see it. Sharon: Do you basically stick with the marketing they have? If they call you in to do SEO and you look at their website and messaging, do you stick with that or do you recommend a change? Chris: We absolutely will make recommendations if we see an opportunity to help them. Ultimately, if they're signing more cases, it helps us; we have more opportunities to do different SEO for different locations, for retention, for security. Individuals that are living and dying by each lead are the ones that are emailing you every single day, “Where are my leads? Where are my leads?” We just try to do the best. If we think we have excellent rankings, and maybe they don't have the correct copywriting or positioning conversion points, we'll absolutely make recommendations for branding or anything that can help them. Sharon: Have you ever let a client go because they were too anxious or they wouldn't listen to you, or you thought, “This is not going to work”? Chris: Yeah, I wouldn't say very frequently, but absolutely. We've done it a couple of times this year under different circumstances. At the end of the day, your team has to feel welcome and hungry and motivated to work on your client. I want to have a culture where people enjoy their work. Sometimes we've had individuals that weren't respectful or the best from the culture perspective. Look, at the end of the day, it's not worth it. I know our employees really appreciate that we have their back when those situations occur. When you take care of your employees, they're going to take care of your clients. Sharon: Another question, one that's important to me. I'm not sure I understand it, but how can you work with a client in more than one market? Can you only work with one law firm that wants auto cases in Philadelphia? If client B comes and says, “I want auto cases in Philadelphia,” can you do that? What do you do? Chris: That's a great question that has been debated on and on in the SEO community. What I'll tell you is that radio and TV own the distribution rights. They already own the distribution. For SEO, it's determined based upon proximity. I'll give you an example, and then I'm going to circle this around. If you go on vacation to St. Louis and you type “best restaurants near me” in your phone, you're going to see restaurants nearest your proximity. You're not going to see them 10 miles away or 20 miles away. In some situations, if you have a big market, let's say Houston, you could, in theory, have multiple clients in Houston. You could have one downtown, one in the northeast, and there will not be a true conflict because of the proximity factor. Having said that, I personally have given up on trying to educate our clients on this because, at the end of the day, it's what they feel. So, we only take one per market now. In the past, I was very resistant to it because of the proximity. We've done our own data studies, but the SEO industry itself, it's perceived as a snake oil salesman. Any time I would try to educate about proximity, it's like they have earmuffs, and they're like, “Oh, another snake oil salesman.” So, I've basically given up. It's what they want; it's their perception, so we just take one per market. Sharon: Let me make sure I understand. Are you saying you think it could be done, but your client doesn't want that? Chris: Yes, that was what I was circling around to. Because the Map Pack, which is the best virtual real estate we talk about, after about one mile, your rankings start to deplete based upon your physical location. One of the biggest things I see attorneys do wrong is they'll have an office in Orlando or Houston, and they'll think about going to an entirely different city. They don't understand there's a big portion of their market that's not covered just because of the location where their office is. It may be better to actually open a second office in the same city than to go to an entirely new city based upon proximity. Sharon: Physical offices may not be the same today as it was a few years ago, but the law firms that advertise will advertise 20 different locations. What location do you use? The main location? Chris: First, I'll say all attorney listings are supposed to follow Google's guidelines. Google's guidelines state that the office has to have staff during your regularly stated hours. That's the big one that most don't do. It has to have signage. It has to be an actual brick-and-mortar with an office space. It can't be a shared office. You'll see a lot of fake satellite offices. Technically, they're violating Google's guidelines. So, when we say they should expand, we tell them to follow the book. Get a lease. Make sure it's staffed. Have proof of that. Have signage. Have business cards so if there's any question, here's the proof. That's the way to do it by the book. There are many firms that do not do it by the book, but again, we can educate them as to the best ways to do things. Then it's their choice on how they proceed. Sharon: I can see them saying, “That's nice, Chris. O.K., thanks.” There are people listening today who are going to get off the phone and go look at their website and say, “What am I doing right? What am I doing wrong?” What are the things they should look at right away, the top three things to evaluate whether this is going to work for SEO? Chris: I would say read your content first. Does the content answer consumer intent? Do you think it would answer your customer's pains? Is it well-written? Is it formatted well? Can they find the information they're looking for? That's where I would start. Looking at things like links, you need to use diagnostic tools. You need third-party assistance or someone that really understands that. So, I would pay close attention to your website, to your content. Read it and make sure everything's covered thoroughly. That's where I would start. Sharon: Can you set SEO and then leave it for a few months? If you get things up and running, can you just— Chris: In major metros, typically, you cannot. In most of the major metros, all SEO agencies are an in-house team that is constantly foot on the pedal, doing more content, more links, more Google reviews, or eventually you'll lose market share. In smaller markets, you may be able to create a big enough gap where you don't have to touch it as frequently. Maybe there are only a few firms. You can get a big runway ahead of them. But in most markets, it's a constant game. It's not set and forget it. Sharon: Do people ask you, “Should I add YouTube?” or “Should I link my YouTube? Should I link my podcast or blog?” I know you have a blog. Should those all be linked, and does that help? Chris: Yes and no. I'm trying not to get too confusing for the audience. In general, I would tell the audience to create a link if it can serve the consumer, if you're trying to transition or build brand awareness. I know you're aware of this, Sharon, because of what you do for PR. A lot of times, the links are not followed, and they won't contribute or pass equity. A lot of press release sites, a lot of media news sites, don't pass authority back to your site. Is it still a good reason to include a link? Yes, because you could transition a consumer to your website. It could still convert. Is it going to help SEO? Maybe. The traffic might help, but will the link pass authority? Maybe not. Should you link your social assets and directories and things like this? Absolutely. Are they going help improve your rankings? Maybe. Maybe they will; maybe they won't. Sharon: Is your team constantly Googling your clients? Is it constantly evaluating them? When you say diagnostics, what are you looking for? Are they doing Google Analytics? I don't know exactly what it is. Chris: Yeah, we do. We have several tools that track rankings. Rankings are one of those leading indicators. Just because you have great rankings doesn't mean it's going to generate cases. It's more predictive. So, we look at leading indicators. There's one we look at as an agency. I'm not aware of another agency that does. It's referred to as Ahrefs traffic value, and basically this number shows the amount of money you'd have to spend on pay-per-click to get the same amount for organic. We measure that on a weekly basis. If we see it increase, great. Our rankings and visibility are improving. If we see a decrease, them something happened. It allows us to take action more quickly on a weekly basis than by looking at your Google Analytics traffic or goals and conversions on a monthly basis, which is more a lagging indicator. We look at a lot of KPIs. We look at leading end lagging. Sharon: You mentioned pay-per-click and social before. You don't do social. Do you do pay-per-click? Do you incorporate that, or is that totally separate? Chris: That would be a situation where we have a few strategic partners we can highly recommend. We work very well with them from a communications standpoint. We feel we're the best in the world of SEO. We try to find the best in the world of pay-per-click and these other services and let our clients work with those individuals. Sharon: That's interesting to me, because I always think of pay-per-click as part of SEO in a sense. There are so many perspectives on SEO. Should you focus on this? Should you focus on linking everything? Should you focus on YouTube? That's why it's always changing. What are your thoughts about something like that? Chris: Again, I'm a big omnichannel person, so I think there are a lot of different places where individuals congregate and hang out. They could hang out on Facebook; now that audience is depleted, so let's go to Instagram. Now that audience is depleted and it's going to TikTok or YouTube. I think you need to do it all. The difference between pay-per-click and SEO in my eyes is with pay-per-click, you're leasing visibility. The moment you quit bidding, you're gone. It's great. You can get that visibility immediately. With SEO, you're creating a library so people can pull these books from the shelves when they have a certain query. The more content and queries and keywords you target, the bigger your library is, the more opportunities there are for consumers to find you. I look at it more as an asset as opposed to a leasing situation or a liability perspective. That's the way I look at it for SEO. It just gets better with time. Still today, even though there are all these different mediums, it's still one of the best costs per conversion, costs per acquisition. With pay-per-click, the amount per click has exponentially increased. Now, we're looking at $300, $600 per click. Facebook ads have gotten more expensive, and you're not seeing yourself on the organic feed as much as you used to. It's more pay to play, but we still see a lot of value in SEO. Sharon: I would think it would be foundational in the long term. No matter what else is coming, you are still going to need that. Do you work with your clients on the intake process? What if you're generating these leads and they're blowing it when somebody calls? Chris: We secret shop them. We secret shop our clients. We listen to calls. There's nothing worse than when we generate leads and the phone's not answered or calls aren't returned. It's our job to overwhelm the sales department. The moment we get any insights to where sales could be improved, we make those recommendations because it impacts us. We can generate a thousand leads, but if they're not getting assigned, we're going to get fired because they're not making money. Sharon: How are you tracking that? Do you work with people inside for that to work? Chris: Yes. There are certain CRMs we recommend. There are a few consultants we recommend. There are even outsourced intake services we recommend for all those scenarios. It depends based upon the type of firm. There are some firms that are settlement firms, so they don't do a lot of litigation. They're really high-volume. Then there are litigating firms, where maybe their case criteria are super high and they don't do volume. The way you staff those sales teams is different, so it depends based upon our recommendations. Sharon: Going to back to what you were saying before about working only with personal injury firms, I would think they're not scared off by big marketing budgets or the big numbers you might be throwing around. When you read the Wall Street Journal, they're spending millions of dollars on stuff like this. I don't know if you find that. Chris: They're not afraid to spend money; I'll say that. It is definitely increasing in most major markets. You're not going to do TV in most markets for less than $50,000 a month. Pay-per-click, you're not doing that for less than $10,000 typically. There's big money in personal injury because there's a lot of opportunity. There are a lot of different insurances and big insurance companies. It's a behemoth that takes advantage of a lot of consumers, so they definitely invest a lot. Sharon: Chris, I really appreciate your being here today because this is, to me, foundational. It's not going away no matter what comes. Thank you so much for sharing all your expertise with us. If things ever change with SEO, we'll have you back. Thank you so much. Chris: Awesome. Sharon, thanks so much for having me.

 Nikki: In some ways I think "software supply chain security" has become almost a buzz word, or buzz phrase? But to me it's more of a concern for security programs at large, since so many products and services are being developed in-house at organizations. What are the top three concerns that CISO's or security leaders should know? Chris: We're obviously seeing a lot of buzz around SBOM, and now VEX. What are your thoughts on where things are headed with software component inventory and SBOM as part of cyber vulnerability management?Chris: You were involved in the CNCF Secure Software Factory Reference Architecture. How was that experience and do you think organizations will be able to adopt the practices and guidance laid out there? There are a lot of moving parts. Nikki: How do you feel about how pentests should be involved in a software supply chain security program? I personally am curious about possible implications and benefits of actively (and consistently) testing dependencies and potentially finding unknown vulnerabilities.Chris: So we've talked about frameworks and guidance. Another big one is SLSA, Supply Chain Levels for Software Artifacts. What are your thoughts on SLSA and it's utility in the broader software supply chain security conversation.Chris: SCRM can be like eating an elephant when you look at CSP's, MSP's, Software, and so on - what are your thoughts for organizations that don't have the resources of say a CitiBank, such as an SMB. Where do they start?Nikki: I think we're still missing the human element of what a software supply chain security program looks like - how do you feel about that? Do you think we need to take more into account how people are using software, from a developer and a user perspective?Chris: There has been a lot of focus on Containers of course in the conversation around Cloud-native ecosystems, coupled with Kubernetes, IaC and so on. Do you think these innovations make the challenge of software supply chain easier, or more difficult to manage?

Chris talks about a small toy app he maintains on the side and working with a project called capybara_table. Steph is getting ready for maternity leave and wonders how you track velocity and know if you're working quickly enough? They answer a listener's question about where to get started testing a legacy app. This episode is brought to you by Airbrake (https://airbrake.io/?utm_campaign=Q3_2022%3A%20Bike%20Shed%20Podcast%20Ad&utm_source=Bike%20Shed&utm_medium=website). Visit Frictionless error monitoring and performance insight for your app stack. jnicklas/capybara_table: (https://github.com/jnicklas/capybara_table) Capybara selectors and matchers for working with HTML tables Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: CHRIS: Just gotta hold on. Fly this thing straight to the crash site. STEPH: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. CHRIS: And I'm Steph Viccari. STEPH: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. I love that you rolled with that. [laughs] CHRIS: No, actually, it was the only thing I could do. I [laughs] was frozen into action is a weird way to describe it, but there we are. STEPH: I mentioned to you a while back that I've always wanted to do that. Today was the day. It happened. CHRIS: Today was the day. It wasn't even that long ago that you told me. I feel like you could have waited another week or two. I feel like maybe I was too prepared. But yeah, for anyone listening, you may be surprised to find out that I am not, in fact, Steph Viccari. STEPH: And they'll be surprised to find out that I actually am Chris Toomey. This is just a solo monologue. And you've done a great job of two voices [laughs] this whole time and been tricking everybody. CHRIS: It has been a struggle. But I'm glad to now get the proper recognition for the fact that I have actually [laughs] been both sides of this thing the whole time. STEPH: It's been a very impressive talent in how you've run both sides of the conversation. Well, on that note, [laughs] switching gears just a bit, what's new in your world? CHRIS: What's new in my world? Answering now as Chris Toomey. Let's see; I got two small updates, one a very positive update, one a less positive update. As is the correct order, I'm going to lead with the less positive thing. So I have a small toy app that I maintain on the side. I used to have a bunch of these little purpose-built singular apps, typically Rails app sort of things where I would play with a new technology, but it was some sort of like, oh, it's a tracker. It's a counter. We talked about breakable toys in the past. These were those, for me, serve different purposes, productivity things, or whatever. But at some point, I was like, this is too much work, so I consolidated them all. And I kept like, there was a handful of features that I liked, smashed them all together into one Rails app that I maintain. And that's just like my Rails app. It turns out it's useful to be able to program the internet. So I was like, cool, I'll do that for myself. I have this little app that I maintain. It's got like a journal in it and other things. I think I've talked about the journal in the past. But I don't actually take that good care of it. I haven't added any features in a while. It mostly just does what it's supposed to, but it had...entropy had gotten the better of it. And so, I had a very small feature that I wanted to add. It was actually just a Rake task that should run in the background on a schedule. And if something is out of order, then it should send me an email. Basically, just an update of like, you need to do something. It seemed like such a simple task. And then, oh goodness, the failure modes that I fell into. First, I was on Heroku-18. Heroku is currently on their Heroku-22 stack. 18 being the year, so it was like 2018, and then there's a 2020 stack, and then the 2022. That's the current one. So I was two stacks behind, and they were yelling at me about that. So I was like, okay, but whatever. Can I ignore that for a little while? Turns out no, because I couldn't even get the app to boot locally, something about some gems or some I think Webpacker was broken locally. So I was trying to fix things, finally got that to work. But then I couldn't get it to build on CircleCI because Node needed Python, Python 2 specifically, not Python 3, in order to build Node dependencies, particularly LibSass, I want to say, or node-sass. So node-sass needed Python 2, which I believe is end of life-d, to build a CSS authoring tool. And I kind of took a step back at that moment, and I was like, what did we do, everybody? What is going on here? And thankfully, I feel like there was more sort of unification of tools and simplification of the build tool space and whatnot. But I patched it, and I fixed some things, then finally I got it working. But then Memcache wasn't working, and I had to de-provision that and reprovision something. The amount of little...like, each thing that I fixed broke something else. I was like, the only thing I can do at this point is just burn the entire app down and rebuild it. Thankfully, I found a working version of things. But I think at some point, I've got to roll up my sleeves some weekend and do the full Rails, Ruby, everything upgrade, just get back to fresh. But my goodness, it was rough. STEPH: I feel like this is one of those reasons where we've talked in the past about you want to do something, and you keep putting it off. And it's like, if I had just sat down and done it, I could have knocked it out. Like, oh, it only took me like 5-10 minutes. But then there's this where you get excited, and then you want to dive in. And then suddenly, you do spend an hour or however long, and you're just focused on trying to get to the point where you can break ground and start building. I think that's the resistance that we're often fighting when we think about, oh, I'm going to keep delaying this because I don't know how long it's going to take. CHRIS: There's something that I see in certain programming communities, which is sort of a beginner-friendliness or a beginner's mindset or a welcomingness to beginners. I see it, particularly in the Svelte world, where they have a strong focus on being able to pick something up and run with it immediately. The entire tutorial is built as there's the tutorial on the one side, like the text, and then on the right side is an interactive REPL. And you're just playing with the Svelte REPL and poking around. And it's so tangible and immediate. And they're working on a similar thing now for SvelteKit, which is the meta-framework that does server-side rendering and all the fancy stuff. But I love the idea that that is so core to how the Svelte community works. And I'll be honest that other times, I've looked at it, and I've been like, I don't care as much about the first run experience; I care much more about the long-term maintainability of something. But it turns out that I think those two are more coupled than I had initially...like, how easy is it for a beginner to get started is closely related to or is, you know, the flip side of how easy is it for me to maintain that over time, to find the documentation, to not have a weird builder that no one else has ever seen. There's that wonderful XKCD where it's like, what's the saddest thing on the internet? Seeing the question that you have asked by one other person on Stack Overflow and no answers four years ago. It's like, yeah, that's painful. You actually want to be part of the boring, mundane, everybody's getting the same errors, and we have solutions to them. So I really appreciate when frameworks and communities care a lot about both that first run experience but also the maintainability, the error messages, the how okay is it for this system to segfault? Because it turns out segfaults prints some funny characters to your terminal. And so, like the range from human-friendly error message all the way through to binary character dump, I'm interested in folks that care about that space. But yeah, so that's just a bit of griping. I got through it. I made things work. I appreciate, again, the efforts that people are putting in to make that sad situation that I experienced not as common. But to highlight something that's really great and wonderful that I've been working with, there is a project called capybaratable. capybaratable is the gem name. And it is just this delightful little set of matchers that you can use within a Capybara, particularly within feature spec. So if you have a table, you can now make an assertion that's like, expect the table to have table row. And then you can basically pass it a hash of the column name and the value, but you can pass it any of the columns that you want. And you can pass it...basically, it reads exactly like the user would read it. And then, if there's an error, if it actually doesn't find it, if it misses the assertion, it will actually print out a little ASCII table for you, which is so nice. It's like, here's the table row that I saw. It didn't have what you were looking for, friend, sorry about that. And it's just so expressive. It forces accessibility because it basically looks at the semantic structure of a table. And if your table is not properly semantically structured, if you're not using TDs and TRs, and all that kind of stuff, then it will not find it. And so it's another one of those cases where testing can be a really useful constraint from the usability and accessibility of your application. And so, just in every way, I found this project works so well. Error messages are great. It forces you into a better way of building applications. It is just a wonderful little tool that I found. STEPH: That's awesome. I've definitely seen other thoughtboters when working in codebases that then they'll add really nice helper methods around that for like checking does this data exist in the table? And so I'm used to seeing that type of approach or taking that type of approach myself. But the ASCII table printout is lovely. That's so...yeah, that's just a nice cherry on top. I will have to lock that one away and use that in the future. CHRIS: Yeah, really, just such a delightful thing. And again, in contrast to the troubles of my weekend, it was very nice to have this one tool that was just like, oh, here's an error, and it's so easy to follow, and yeah. So it's good that there are good things in the world. But speaking of good things, what's new in your world? I hope good things. And I hope you're not about to be like, everything's terrible. But what's up with you? [laughter] STEPH: Everything's on fire. No, I do have some good things. So the good thing is that I'm preparing for...I have maternity leave that's coming up. So I am going to take maternity leave in about four-ish weeks. I know the date, but I'm saying the ish because I don't know when people are listening. [laughs] So I'm taking maternity leave coming up soon. I'm very excited, a little panicked mostly about baby preparedness, because, oh my goodness, it is such an overwhelming world, and what everyone thinks you should or shouldn't have and things that you need to do. So I've been ramping up heavily in that area. And then also planning for when I'm gone and then what that's going to look like for the team, and for clients, and for making sure I've got work wrapped up nicely. So that's a big project. It's just something that's on my mind, something that I am working through and making plans for. On the weird side, I ran into something because I'm still in test migration world. That is one of like, this is my mountain. This is my Everest. I am determined to get all of these tests. Thank you to everyone who has listened to me, especially you, listen to me talk about this test migration path I've been on and the journey that it's been. This is the goal that I have in mind that I really want to get done. CHRIS: I know that when you said, "Especially you," you were talking to me, Chris Toomey. But I want to imagine that every listener out there is just like, aww, you're welcome, Steph. So I'm going to pretend for my own sake that that's what you meant by, especially you. It's especially every one of you out there in the audience. STEPH: Yes, I love either version. And good point, because you're right, I'm looking at you. So I can say especially you since you've been on this journey with me, but everybody listening has been on this journey with me. So I've got a number of files left that I'm working through. And one of the funky things that I ran into, well, it's really not funky; it was a little bit more of an educational rabbit hole for me because it's something that I hadn't considered. So migrating over a controller test over from Test::Unit to then RSpec, there are a number of controller tests that issue requests or they call the same controller method multiple times. And at first, I didn't think too much about it. I was like, okay, well, I'm just going to move this over to RSpec, and everything is going to be fine. But based on the way a lot of the information is getting set around logging in a user and then performing an action, and then trying to log in a different user, and then perform another action that was causing mayhem. Because then the second user was never getting logged in because the first user wasn't getting logged out. And it was causing enough problems that Joël and I both sat back, and we're like, this should really be a request back because that way, we're going through the full Rails routing. We're going through more of the sessions that get set, and then we can emulate that full request and response cycle. And that was something that I just hadn't, I guess, I hadn't done before. I've never written a controller spec where then I was making multiple calls. And so it took a little while for me to realize, like, oh, yeah, controller specs are really just unit test. And they're not going to emulate, give us the full lifecycle that a request spec does. And it's something that I've always known, but I've never actually felt that pain point to then push me over to like, hey, move this to a request spec. So that was kind of a nice reminder to go through to be like, this is why we have controller specs. You can unit test a specific action; it is just hitting that controller method. And then, if you want to do something that simulates more of a user flow, then go ahead and move over to the request spec land. CHRIS: I don't know what the current status is, but am I remembering correctly that the controller specs aren't really a thing anymore and that you're supposed to just use request specs? And then there's features specs. I feel like I'm conflating...there's like controller requests and feature, but feature maybe doesn't...no, system, that's what I'm thinking of. So request specs, I think, are supposed to be the way that you do controller-like things anymore. And the true controller spec unit level thing doesn't exist anymore. It can still be done but isn't recommended or common. Does that sound true to you, or am I making stuff up? STEPH: No, that sounds true to me. So I think controller specs are something that you can still do and still access. But they are very much at that unit layer focus of a test versus request specs are now more encouraged. Request specs have also been around for a while, but they used to be incredibly slow. I think it was more around Rails 5 that then they received a big increase in performance. And so that's when RSpec and Rails were like, hey, we've improved request specs. They test more of the framework. So if you're going to test these actions, we recommend going for request specs, but controller specs are still there. I think for smaller things that you may want to test, like perhaps you want to test that an endpoint returns a particular status that shows that you're not authorized or forbidden, something that's very specific, I think I would still reach for a controller spec in that case. CHRIS: I feel like I have that slight inclination to the unit spec level thing. But I've been caught enough by different things. Like, there was a case where CSRF wasn't working. Like, we made some switch in the application, and suddenly CSRF was broken, and I was like, well, that's bad. And the request spec would have caught it, but the controller spec wouldn't. And there's lots of the middleware stack and all of the before actions. There is so much hidden complexity in there that I think I'm increasingly of the opinion, although I was definitely resistant to it at first, but like, yeah, maybe just go the request spec route and just like, sure. And they'll be a little more costly, but I think it's worth that trade-off because it's the stuff that you're not thinking about that is probably the stuff that you're going to break. It's not the stuff that you're like, definitely, if true, then do that. Like, that's the easier stuff to get right. But it's the sneaky stuff that you want your tests to tell you when you did something wrong. And that's where they're going to sneak in. STEPH: I agree. And yeah, by going with the request specs, then you're really leaning into more of an integration test since you are testing more of that request/response lifecycle, and you're not as likely to get caught up on the sneaky stuff that you mentioned. So yeah, overall, it was just one of those nice reminders of I know I use request specs. I know there's a reason that I favor them. But it was one of those like; this is why we lean into request specs. 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STEPH: Changing gears just a bit, I have something that I'd love to chat with you about. It came up while I was having a conversation with another thoughtboter as we were discussing how do you track velocity and know if you're working quickly enough? So since we often change projects about every six months, there's the question of how do I adapt to this team? Or maybe I'm still newish to thoughtbot or to a team; how do I know that I am producing the amount of work that the client or the team expects of me and then also still balancing that and making sure that I'm working at a sustainable pace? And I think that's such a wonderful, thoughtful question. And I have some initial thoughts around it as to how someone could track velocity. I also think there are two layers to this; there could be are we looking to track an individual's velocity, or are we looking to track team velocity? I think there are a couple of different ways to look at this question. But I'm curious, what are your thoughts around tracking velocity? CHRIS: Ooh, interesting. I have never found a formal method that worked in this space, no metric, no analysis, no tool, no technique that really could boil this down and tell a truth, a useful truth about, quote, unquote, "Velocity." I think the question of individual velocity is really interesting. There's the case of an individual who joins a team who's mostly working to try and support others on the team, so doing a lot of pairing, doing a lot of other things. And their individual velocity, the actual output of lines of code, let's say, is very low, but they are helping the overall team move faster. And so I think you'll see some of that. There was an episode a while back where we talked about heuristics of a team that's moving reasonably well. And I threw out the like; I don't know, like a pull request a day sort of thing feels like the only arbitrary number that I feel comfortable throwing out there in the world. And ideally, these pull requests are relatively small, individual deployable things. But any other version of it, like, are we thinking lines of code? That doesn't make sense. Is it tickets? Well, it depends on how you size your tickets. And I think it's really hard. And I think it does boil down to it's sort of a feeling. Do we feel like we're moving at a comfortable clip? Do I feel like I'm roughly keeping pace with the rest of the team, especially given seniority and who's been on the team longer? And all of those sorts of things. So I think it's incredibly difficult to ask about an individual. I have, I think, some more pointed thoughts around as a team how we would think about it and communicate about velocity. But I'm interested what came to mind for you when you thought about it, particularly for the individual side or for the team if you want to go in that direction. STEPH: Yeah, most of my initial thoughts were more around the individual because I think that's where this person was coming from because they were more interested in, like, how do I know that I'm producing as much as the team would expect of me? But I think there's also the really interesting element of tracking a team's velocity as well. For the individual, I think it depends a lot on that particular team and their goals and what pace they're moving at. So when I do join a new team, I will look around to see, okay, well, what's the cadence? What's the standard bar for when someone picks up a ticket and then is able to push it through? How much cruft are we working with in the codebase? Because then that will change the team's expectations of yes, we know that we have a lot of legacy code that we're working with, and so it does take us longer to get through things. And that is totally fine because we are looking more to optimize our sustainability and improving the code as we go versus just trying to get new features in. I think there's also an important cultural aspect. So some teams may, unfortunately, work a lot of extra hours. And that's something that I won't bend for. I'm still going to stick to my sustainable hours. But that's something that I keep in mind that just if some other people are working a lot of evenings or just working extra hours to keep that in mind that if they do have a higher velocity to not include that in my calculation as heavily. I also really liked how you highlighted that certain individuals often their velocity is unblocking others. So it's less about the specific code or features or tickets that they're producing, but it's how many people can they help? And then they're increasing the velocity of those individuals. And then the other metrics that unfortunately can be gamified, but it's still something to look at is like, how many hours are you spending on a particular feature, the tickets? But I like that phrasing that you used earlier of what's your progress? So if someone comes to daily sync and they mention that they're working on the same thing and we're on like day three, or four, but they haven't given an update around, like, oh, I have this new thing that I'm focused on, or this new area that I'm exploring, that's when I'll start to have alarm bells go off. And I'm like, okay, you've been working on the same thing. I can't quite tell if you've made progress. It sounds like you're still in the depths of the original thing that you were on a couple of days ago. So at that point, I'm going to want to check in to see how you're doing. But yeah, I think that's why this question fascinates me so much is because I don't think there's one answer that fits for everybody. There's not a way to tell one person to say, "Hey, this is your output that you should be producing, and this applies to all teams." It's really going to vary from team to team as to what that looks like. I remember there was one team that I joined that initially; I panicked because I noticed that their team was moving at a slower rate in terms of the number of tickets and PRs and stuff that were getting pushed up, reviewed, and then merged. That was moving at a slower pace than I was used to with previous clients. And I just thought, oh, what's going on? What's slowing us down? Like, why aren't we moving faster? And I actually realized it's just because they were working at a really sustainable pace. They showed up to the office. This was back in the day when I used to go to an office, and people showed up at like 9:00 a.m. and then 5:00 o'clock; it was a ghost town, and people were gone. So they were doing really solid, great work, but they were sticking to very sustainable hours. Versus, a previous team that I had been on had more of like a rushed feeling, and so there was more output for it. And that was a really nice reset for me to watch this team and see them do such great work in a sustainable fashion and be like, oh, yeah, not everything has to be a fire, not everything has to be rushed. I think the biggest thing that I'd look at is if velocity is being called into question, so if someone is concerned that someone's not producing enough or if the team is not producing enough, the first place I'm going to look is what's our priorities and see are we prioritizing correctly? Or are people getting pulled into a lot of work that's not supporting the priorities, and then that's why suddenly it feels like we're not producing at the level that we need to? I feel like that's the common disconnect between how much work we're getting done versus then what's actually causing people or product managers, or management stress. And so reevaluating to make sure that they're on the same page is where I would look first before then thinking, oh, someone's not working hard enough. CHRIS: Yeah, I definitely resonate with all of that. That was a mini masterclass that you just gave right there in all of those different facets. The one other thing that comes to mind for me is the question is often about velocity or speed or how fast can we go. But I increasingly am of the opinion that it's less about the actual speed. So it's less about like, if you think about it in terms of the average pace, the average number of features that we're going through, I'm more interested in the standard deviation. So some days you pick up a ticket, and it takes you a day; some days you pick up a ticket, and suddenly, seven days later, you're still working on it. And both at the individual level and at the team level, I'm really interested in decreasing that standard deviation and making it so that we are more consistently delivering whatever amount of output it is but very consistently doing that. And that really helps with our ability to estimate overall bodies of work with our ability for others to know and for us to be able to sort of uphold expectations. Versus if randomly someone might pick up a piece of code or might pick up a ticket that happens to hit a landmine in the code, it's like, yeah, we've been meaning to refactor that for a while. And it turns out that thing that you thought would be super easy is really hard because we've been kicking the can on this refactoring of the fundamental data model. Sorry about that. But today's your day; you lose. Those are the sort of things that I see can be really problematic. And then similarly, on an individual side, maybe there's some stuff that you can work on that is super easy for you. But then there's other stuff that you kind of hit a wall. And I think the dangerous mode to get into is just going internal and not really communicating about that, and struggling and trying to get there on your own rather than asking for help. And it can be very difficult to ask for help in those sorts of situations. But ideally, if you're focusing on I want to be delivering in that same pace, you probably might need some help in that situation. And I think having a team that really...what you're talking about of like, if I notice someone saying the same thing at daily sync for a couple of days in a row, I will typically reach out in a very friendly, collegial way, hey, do you want someone else to take a look at that with you? Because ideally, we want to unblock those situations. And then if we do have a team that is pretty consistently delivering whatever overall velocity but it's very consistent at that velocity, it's not like 3 one day and then 0, and then 12, and then 2; it's more of like, 6,5,6,5 sort of thing, to pick random numbers out of the air, then I feel so much more able to grow that, to increase that. If the question comes to me of like, hey, we're looking at the budget for the next quarter; do we think we want to hire another developer? I think I can answer that much more accurately at that point and say what do I think that additional individual would be able to do on the team. Versus if development is kind of this sporadic thing all over the place, then it's so much harder to understand what someone new joining that team would be able to do. So it's really the slow is smooth, smooth is fast adage that I've talked about in the past that really captured my mind a while back that just continues to feel true to me. And then yeah, I can work with that so much better than occasional days of wild productivity and then weeks of sadness in the swamp of refactoring. So it's a different way to think about the question, but it is where my mind initially went when I read this question. STEPH: I'm going to start using that description for when I'm refactoring. I'm in the refactoring swamp. That's where I'm spending my time. [laughs] Talking about this particular question is helping me realize that I do think less in terms of like what is my output in the strict terms of tickets, and PRs, and things like that. But I do think more about my progress and how can I constantly show progress, not just to the world but show it to myself. So if there are tickets that then maybe the ticket was scoped too big at first and I've definitely made some really solid progress, maybe I'm able to ship something or at least identified some other work that could be broken out, then I'm going to do that. Because then I want everybody to know, like, hey, this is the progress that was made here. And I may even be able to make myself feel good and move something over to the done column. So there's that aspect of the work that I focus on more heavily. And I feel like that also gives us more opportunities to then iterate on what's the goal? Like, we're not looking to just churn out work. That's not the point. But we really want to focus on meaningful work to get done. So if we're constantly giving an update on this as the progress that I've made in this direction, that gives people more opportunities to then respond to that progress and say, "Oh, actually, I think the work was supposed to do this," or "I have questions about some of the things that you've uncovered." So it's less about just getting something done. But it's still about making sure that we're working on the right thing. CHRIS: Yeah, it doesn't matter how fast we're going if we're going in the wrong direction, so another critical aspect. You can be that person on the team who actually doesn't ship much code at all. Just make sure that we don't ship the wrong code, and you will be a critical member of that team. But shifting gears just a little bit, we have another listener question here that I'd love to get into. This one is about testing a legacy app. So reading this question, it starts off with a very nice note to us, Steph. "I want to start by saying thanks for putting out great content week after week." We are very happy to do so." So a question for you two. I just took over a legacy Rails app. It's about 12 years old, and it's a bit of a mess. There was some testing in place, but it was completely broken and hadn't been touched in over seven years. So I decided to just delete it all. My question is, where do I even start with testing? There are so many callbacks on the models and so many controller hooks that I feel like I somehow need to have a factory for every model in our repo. I need to get testing in place ASAP because that is how I develop. But we are also still on Ruby 2 and Rails 4.0. So we desperately have to upgrade. Thanks in advance for any advice." So Steph, I actually replied in an email to this kind listener who sent this. And so, I definitely have some thoughts, but I'm interested in where would you start with this. STEPH: Legacy code, I wouldn't know anything about working in legacy code. [laughs] This is a fabulous question. And yeah, the response that you provided is incredible. So I'm very excited for you to share the message that you replied with. So I'm going to try not to steal any of those because they're wonderful. But to add to that list that is soon to come, often where I start with applications like these where I need some testing in place because, as this person mentioned, that's how they work. And then also, at that point, you're just scared to ship anything because you just don't know what's going to break. So one area that you could start with is what's your rollback strategy? So if you don't have any tests in place and you send something out into the world, then what's your plan to then be able to either roll back to a safe point or perhaps it's using feature flags for anything new that you're adding so that way you can quickly turn something on and off. But having a strategy there, I think, will help alleviate some of that stress of I need to immediately add tests. It's like, yes, that's wonderful, but that's going to take time. So until you can actually write those tests, then let's figure out a plan to mitigate some of that pain. So that's where I would initially start. And then, as for adding the test, typically, you start with testing as you go. So I would add tests for the code that I'm adding that I'm working on because that's where I'm going to have the most context. And I'm going to start very high. So I might have really slow tests that test everything that is going to be feature level, integration level specs because I'm at the point that I'm just trying to document the most crucial user flows. And then once I have some of those in place, then even if they are slow, at least I'm like, okay, I know that the most crucial user flows are protected and are still working with this change that I'm making. And in a recent episode, we were talking about how to get to know a Rails app. You highlighted a really good way to get to know those crucial user flows or the most common user flows by using something like New Relic and then seeing what are the paths that people are using. Maybe there's a product manager or just someone that you're taking the app over that could also give you some help in letting you know what's the most crucial features that users are relying on day to day and then prioritizing writing tests for those particular flows. So then, at this point, you've got a rollback strategy. And then you've also highlighted what are your most crucial user flows, and then you've added some really high level probably slow tests. Something that I've also done in the past and seen others do at thoughtbot when working on a legacy project or just working on a project, it wasn't even legacy, but it just didn't have any test coverage because the team that had built it before hadn't added test coverage. We would often duplicate a lot of the tests as well. So you would have some integration tests that, yes, frankly, were very similar to others, which felt like a bad choice. But there was just some slight variation where a user-provided some different input or clicked on some small different field or something else happened. But we found that it was better to have that duplication in the test coverage with those small variations versus spending too much time in finessing those tests. Because then we could always go back and start to improve those tests as we went. So it really depends. Are you in fire mode, and maybe you need to duplicate some stuff? Or are you in a state where you can be more considerate with your tests, and you don't need to just get something in place right away? Those are some of the initial thoughts I have. I'm very excited for the thoughts that you're about to share. So I'm going to turn it over to you. CHRIS: It's sneaky in this case. You have advanced notice of what I'm about to say. But yeah, this is a super interesting topic and one of those scary places to find yourself in. Very similar to you, the first thing that I recommended was feature specs, starting at that very high level, particularly as the listener wrote in and saying there are a lot of model callbacks and controller callbacks. And before filters and all of this, it's very indirect how this application works. And so, really, it's only when the whole thing is integrated together that you're going to have a reasonable sense of what's going on. And so trying to write those high-level feature specs, having a handful of them that give you some confidence when you're deploying that those core workflows are still working as expected. Beyond that, the other things that I talked about one was observability. As an aside, I didn't mention feature flags or anything like that. And I really loved that that was something you highlighted as a different way to get to confidence, so both feature flags and rollbacks. Testing at the end of the day, the goal is to have confidence that we're deploying software that works, and a different way to get that is feature flags and rollbacks. So I really love that you highlighted that. Something that goes really well hand in hand with those is observability. This has been a thing that I've been exploring more and more and just having some tooling that at runtime will tell you if your application is behaving as expected or is not. So these can be APM-type tools, but it can also be things like Sentry or Honeybadger error monitoring, those sorts of things. And in a system like this, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe there was an existing error monitoring tool, but it had just kind of decayed over time and now just has perhaps thousands of different entries in it that have been ignored and whatnot. On more than one occasion, I've declared Sentry bankruptcy working with clients and just saying like, listen; this thing can't tell us any truths anymore. So let's burn it down and restart it. So I would recommend that and having that as a tool such that much as tests are really wonderful before the code gets out there into the wild; it turns out it's only when users start using it that the real stuff happens. And so, having observability, having tooling in place that will tell you when something breaks is equally critical in my mind. One of the other things I said, and this is probably the spiciest take on my list, is questioning the trade-off space that you're in. Is this an application that actually has a relatively low defect rate that users use and are quite happy with, and expect that level of performance and correctness, and all of those sorts of things, and so you, frankly, need to be careful with it? Or, is it potentially something that has a handful of bugs and that users are used to a certain lower fidelity experience, let's call it? And can you take advantage of that if that happens to be true? Like, I would be very careful to break something that has never been broken before that there's no expectation of that. But if we can get away with moving fast and breaking things for a little while just to try and get ourselves out of the spot that we're in, I would at least want to consider that trade-off space. Because caution slows you down, it means that your progress is going to be limited. And so, if we're able to reduce the caution filter just a little bit and move a little bit more rapidly, then ideally, we can get out of this place that we're in a little more quickly. Again, I think that's a really subtle one and one that you'd have to get buy-in from product managers and probably be very explicit in the conversations and sort of that trade-off space. But it is something that I would want to explore if I found myself in this sort of situation. The last thing that I highlighted was the fact that the versions of Ruby and Rails that were listed in the question are, I think, both end of life at this point. And so from a security perspective, that is just a giant glaring warning sign in the corner because the day that your app gets hacked, well, that's a bad day. So testing, unfortunately, I think that's the main way that you're going to get by on that as you're going through upgrades. You can deploy a new version of the application and see what happens and see if your observability can get you there. But really, testing is what you want to do. So that's where building out that testing is all the more critical so that you can perform those security upgrades because they are now truly critical to get done. And so it gives sort of more than a nice to have, more than this makes me feel comfortable. It is pretty much a necessity if you want to go through that, and you absolutely need to go through the security upgrades because otherwise, you're going to get hacked. There are just automated scanners out there. They're going to find you. You don't need to be a high vulnerability target to get taken down on the internet these days. So if it hasn't happened yet, it's going to. And I think that's an easy business case to sell is, I guess, the way that I would frame it. So those were some of my thoughts. STEPH: You bring up a really good point about needing to focus on the security upgrades. And I'm thinking that through a little bit further in regards to what trade-offs would I make? Would I wait till I have tests in place to then start the upgrades, or would I start the upgrades now but just know I'm going to spend more time manual testing on staging? Or maybe I'm solo on the project. If I have a product manager or someone else that can also help the testing with me, I think I would go for that latter approach where I would start the upgrades today and then just do more manual testing of those crucial flows and then have that rollback strategy. And as you mentioned, it's a trade-off in terms of, like, how important is it that we don't break anything? CHRIS: I think similar to the thing that both of us hit on early on is like, have some feature specs that just kick the whole application as one connected piece of code. Have that in place for the security upgrade, testing. But I agree, I wouldn't want to hold off on that because I think that's probably the scariest part of all of this. But yeah, it is, again, trade-offs. As always, it depends. But I think those are my thoughts. Anything else you want to add, Steph? STEPH: I think those are fabulous thoughts. I think you covered it all. CHRIS: Sounds good. Well, in that case, should we wrap up? STEPH: Let's wrap up. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

This episode of the In The Club Podcast by Club Colors features Chris Bogue, a writer, and video consultant who creates short and personalized video content that drives revenue for business owners. Video can be your differentiator and Chris shares how he uses "mercifully short" videos to create relatability while injecting the principles of improv comedy into his brand of selling. Chris also discusses how to get started on video, playing on your inherent strengths to let them shine, and being authentic. HIGHLIGHTSImprov, like sales, is about listening to the audienceWhich version of me do you need me to open up?Batching: Record videos and talk about your prospectDisplay your strengths in video to be authentic QUOTESChris: "You're doing the same thing in sales, you're not there to show them that you're the best and the smartest and that your product is the best. You want to get them talking. You want to get questions that are going to excite their imagination, and then you discover the thing together."John: "The main job is not to be the answer or to be the solution, but the person that is going to run through walls to get you the solution, to get you the answer."Chris: "There are two videos that any company can make on Tiktok. This is who we are, and this is how we solve problems. Either of those. For this is who we are, you can show who works at the company, who designed the product. You could share testimonials, who are the people we help. Yeah, who are our best clients."Chris: "When you're in a one-on-one situation like that, you get all these extra storytelling tools. You get your eyes, you get your tone of voice, you get pauses. You get all these different things where your humanity comes through. And that's really what you're getting on video." Connect with Chris by clicking the links below:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-bogue/Website: https://christopherbogue.com/ In the Club by Club Colors is sponsored by our proud partner:Maple Ridge Farms | mapleridge.com

Steph has an update and a question wrapped into one about the work that is being done to migrate the Test::Unit test over to RSpec. Chris got to do something exciting this week using dry-monads. Success or failure? This episode is brought to you by BuildPulse (https://buildpulse.io/bikeshed). Start your 14-day free trial of BuildPulse today. Bartender (https://www.macbartender.com/) dry-rb - dry-monads v1.0 - Pattern matching (https://dry-rb.org/gems/dry-monads/1.0/pattern-matching/) alfred-workflows (https://github.com/tupleapp/alfred-workflows/blob/master/scripts/online_users.rb) Raycast (https://www.raycast.com/) ruby-science (https://github.com/thoughtbot/ruby-science) Inertia.js (https://inertiajs.com/) Remix (https://remix.run/) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: AD: Flaky tests take the joy out of programming. You push up some code, wait for the tests to run, and the build fails because of a test that has nothing to do with your change. So you click rebuild, and you wait. Again. And you hope you're lucky enough to get a passing build this time. Flaky tests slow everyone down, break your flow, and make things downright miserable. In a perfect world, tests would only break if there's a legitimate problem that would impact production. They'd fail immediately and consistently, not intermittently. But the world's not perfect, and flaky tests will happen, and you don't have time to fix all of them today. So how do you know where to start? BuildPulse automatically detects and tracks your team's flaky tests. Better still, it pinpoints the ones that are disrupting your team the most. With this list of top offenders, you'll know exactly where to focus your effort for maximum impact on making your builds more stable. In fact, the team at Codecademy was able to identify their flakiest tests with BuildPulse in just a few days. By focusing on those tests first, they reduced their flaky builds by more than 68% in less than a month! And you can do the same because BuildPulse integrates with the tools you're already using. It supports all of the major CI systems, including CircleCI, GitHub Actions, Jenkins, and others. And it analyzes test results for all popular test frameworks and programming languages, like RSpec, Jest, Go, pytest, PHPUnit, and more. So stop letting flaky tests slow you down. Start your 14-day free trial of BuildPulse today. To learn more, visit buildpulse.io/bikeshed. That's buildpulse.io/bikeshed. STEPH: What type of bird is the strongest bird? CHRIS: I don't know. STEPH: A crane. [laughter] STEPH: You're welcome. And on that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. [laughter] Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, what's new in your world? STEPH: Hey, Chris, I saw a good movie I'd like to tell you about. It was just over the weekend. It's called The Duke, and it's based on a real story. I should ask, have you seen it? Have you heard of this movie called The Duke? CHRIS: I don't think so. STEPH: Okay, cool. It's a true story, and it's based on an individual named Kempton Bunton who then stole a particular portrait, a Goya portrait; if you know your artist, I do not. But he stole a Goya portrait and then essentially held at ransom because he was a big advocate that the BBC News channel should be free for people that are living on a pension or that are war veterans because then they're not able to afford that fee. But then, if you take the BBC channel away from them, it disconnects them from society. And it's a very good movie. I highly recommend it. So I really enjoyed watching that over the weekend. CHRIS: All right. Excellent recommendation. We will, of course, add that to the show notes mostly so that I can find it again later. STEPH: On a more technical note, I have a small update, or it's more of a question. It's an update and a question wrapped into one about the work that is being done to migrate the Test::Unit test over to RSpec. This has been quite a journey that Joël and I have been on for a while now. And we're making progress, but we're realizing that we're spending like 95% of our time in the test setup and porting that over, specifically because we're mapping fixture data over to FactoryBot, and we're just realizing that's really painful. It's taking up a lot of time to do that. And initially, when I realized we were just doing that, we hadn't even really talked about it, but we were moving it over to FactoryBot. I was like, oh, cool. We'll get to delete all these fixtures because there are around 208 files of them. And so that felt like a really good additional accomplishment to migrating the test over. But now that we realize how much time we're spending migrating the data over for that test setup, we've reevaluated, and I shared with Joël in the Slack channel. I was like, crap. I was like, I have a bad idea, and I can't not say it now because it's crossed my mind. And my bad idea was what if we stopped porting over fixtures to FactoryBot and then we just added the fixtures to a directory that RSpec would look so then we can rely on those fixtures? And then that way, we're literally then ideally just copying over from Test::Unit over to RSpec. But it does mean a couple of things. Well, one, it means that we're now running those fixtures at the beginning of RSpec test. We're introducing another pattern of where these tests are already using FactoryBot, but now they have fixtures at the top, and then we won't get to delete the fixtures. So we had a conversation around how to manage and mitigate some of those concerns. And we're still in that exploratory. We're going to test it out and see if this really speeds us up referencing the fixtures. The question that's wrapped up in this is there's something different between how fixtures generate data and how factories generate data. So I've run into this a couple of times now where I moved data over to just call a factory. But then I was hitting these callbacks or after-save-hooks or weird things that were then preventing me from creating the record, even though fixtures was creating them just fine. And then Joël pointed out today that he was running into something similar where there were private methods that were getting called. And there were all sorts of additional code that was getting run with factories versus fixtures. And I don't have an answer. Like, I haven't looked into this. And it's frankly intentional because I was trying hard to not dive into understanding the mechanics. We really want to get through this. But now I'm starting to ponder a little more as to what is different with fixtures and factories? And I liked that factories is running these callbacks; that feels correct. But I'm surprised that fixtures doesn't, or at least that's the experience that I'm having. So there's some funkiness there that I'd like to explore. I'll be honest; I don't know if I'm going to. But if anybody happens to know what that funkiness is or why fixtures and factories are different in that regard, I would be very intrigued because, at some point, I might look into it just because I would like to know. CHRIS: Oh, that is interesting. I have not really worked with fixtures much at all. I've lived a factory life myself, and thus that's where almost all of my experience is. I'm not super surprised if this ends up being the case, like, the idea that fixtures are just some data that gets shoveled into the database directly as opposed to FactoryBot going through the model layer. And so it's sort of like that difference. But I don't know that for certain. That sounds like what this is and makes sense conceptually. But I think this is what you were saying like, that also kind of pushes me more in the direction of factories because it's like, oh, they're now representative. They're using our model layer, where we're defining certain truths. And I don't love callbacks as a mechanism. But if your app has them, then getting data that is representative is useful in tests. Like one of the things I add whenever I'm working with FactoryBot is the FactoryBot lint rake task RSpec thing that basically just says, "Are your factories valid?" which I think is a great baseline to have. Because you may add a migration that adds a default constraint or something like that to the database that suddenly all your factories are invalid, and it's breaking tests, but you don't know it. Like subtly, you change it, and it doesn't actually break a test, but then it's harder later. So that idea of just having more correctness baked in is always nice, especially when it can be automated like that, so definitely a fan of that. But yeah, interested if you do figure out the distinction. I do like your take, though, of like, but also, maybe I just won't figure this out. Maybe this isn't worth figuring it out. Although you were in the interesting spot of, you could just port the fixtures over and then be done and call the larger body of work done. But it's done in sort of a half-complete way, so it's an interesting trade-off space. I'm also interested to hear where you end up on that. STEPH: Yeah, it's a tough trade-off. It's one that we don't feel great about. But then it's also recognizing what's the true value of what we're trying to deliver? And it also comes down to the idea of churn versus complexity. And I feel like we are porting over existing complexity and even adding a smidge, not actual complexity but adding a smidge of indirection in terms that when someone sees this file, they're going to see a mixed-use of fixtures and factories, and that doesn't feel good. And so we've already talked about adding a giant comment above fixtures that just is very honest and says, "Hey, these were ported over. Please don't mimic this. But this is some legacy tests that we have brought over. And we haven't migrated the fixtures over to use factories." And then, in regards to the churn versus complexity, this code isn't likely to get touched like these tests. We really just need them to keep running and keep validating scenarios. But it's not likely that someone's going to come in here and really need to manage these anytime soon. At least, this is what I'm telling myself to make me feel better about it. So there's also that idea of yes, we are porting this over. This is also how they already exist. So if someone did need to manage these tests, then going to Test::Unit, they would have the same experience that they're going to have in RSpec. So that's really the crux of it is that we're not improving that experience. We're just moving it over and then trying to communicate that; yes, we have muddied the waters a little bit by introducing this other pattern. So we're going to find a way to communicate why we've introduced this other pattern, but that way, we can stay focused on actually porting things over to RSpec. As for the factories versus fixtures, I feel like you're onto something in terms of it's just skipping that model layer. And that's why a lot of that functionality isn't getting run. And I do appreciate the accuracy of factories. I'd much rather know is my data representative of real data that can get created in the world? And right now, it feels like some of the fixtures aren't. Like, how they're getting created seemed to bypass really important checks and validations, and that is wrong. That's not what we want to have in our test is, where we're creating data that then the rest of the application can't truly create. But that's another problem for another day. So that's an update on a trade-off that we have made in regards to the testing journey that we are on. What's going on in your world? CHRIS: Well, we got to do something exciting this week. I was working on some code. This is using dry-monads, the dry-rb space. So we have these result objects that we use pretty pervasively throughout the app, and often, we're in a controller. We run one of these command objects. So it's create user, and create user actually encompasses a ton of logic in our app, and that object returns a result. So it's either a success or a failure. And if it's a success, it'll be a success with that new user wrapped up inside of it, or if it's a failure, it's a specific error message. Actually, different structured error messages in different ways, some that would be pushed to the form, some that would be a flash message. There are actually fun, different things that we do there. But in the controller, when we interact with those result objects, typically what we'll do is we'll say result equals create user dot run, (result=createuser.run) and then pass it whatever data it needs. And then on the next line, we'll say results dot either, (results.either), which is a method on these result objects. It's on both the success and failure so you can treat them the same. And then you pass what ends up being a lambda or a stabby proc, or I forget what they are. But one of those sort of inline function type things in Ruby that always feel kind of weird. But you pass one of those, and you actually pass two of them, one for the success case and one for the failure case. And so in the success case, we redirect back with a notice of congratulations, your user was created. Or, in the failure case, we potentially do a flash message of an alert, or we send the errors down, or whatever it ends up being. But it allows us to handle both of those cases. But it's always been syntactically terrible, is how I would describe it. It's, yeah, I'm just going to leave it at that. We are now living in a wonderful, new world. This has been something that I've wanted to try for a while. But I finally realized we're actually on Ruby 2.7, and so thus, we have access to pattern matching in Ruby. So I get to take it for a spin for the first time, realizing that we were already on the correct version. And in particular, dry-monads has a page in their docs specific to how we can take advantage of pattern matching with the result objects that they provide us. There's nothing specific in the library as far as I understand it. This is just them showing a bunch of examples of how one might want to do it if they're working with these result objects. But it's really great because it gives the ability to interact with, you know, success is typically going to be a singular case. There's one success branch to this whole logic, but there are like seven different ways it can fail. And that's the whole idea as to why we use these command objects and the whole Railway Oriented Programming and that whole thing which I have...what is this word? [laughs] I feel like I should know it. It's a positive rant. I have raved; that is how our users kindly pointed that out to us. I have raved about the Railway Oriented Programming that allows us to do. But it's that idea that they're actually, you know, there's one happy path, and there are seven distinct failure modes, seven unhappy paths. And now, using pattern matching, we actually get a really expressive, readable, useful way to destructure each of those distinct failures to work with the particular bits of data that we need. So it was a very happy day, and I got to explore it. This is, again, a feature of Ruby, not a feature of dry-monads. But dry-monads just happens to embrace it and work really well with it. So that was awesome. STEPH: That is awesome. I've seen one or two; I don't know, I've seen a couple of tweets where people are like, yeah, Ruby pattern matching. I haven't found a way to use it. So I'm excited that you just shared a way that you found to use it. I'm also worried what it says about our developer culture that we know the word rant so well, but rave, we always have to reach back into our memory to be like, what's that positive word or something that we like? [laughs] CHRIS: And especially here on The Bike Shed, where we try to gravitate towards the positive. But yeah, it's an interesting point that you make. STEPH: We're a bunch of ranters. It's what we do, pranting ranters. I don't know why we're pranting. [laughs] CHRIS: Because it's that exciting. That's what it is. Actually, there was an interesting thing as we were playing around with the pattern matching code, just poking around in the console session with it, and it prints out a deprecation warning. It's like, warning: this is an experimental feature. Do not use it, be careful. But in the back of my head, I was like, I actually know how this whole thing plays out, Ruby 2.7, and I assure you, it's going to be fine. I have been to the future, at least I'm pretty sure. I think the version that is in Ruby 2.7 did end up getting adopted basically as it stands. And so, I think there is also a setting to turn off that deprecation warning. I haven't done it yet, but I mostly just enjoyed the conversation that I had with this deprecation message of like, listen, I've been to the future, and it's great. Well, it's complicated, but specific to this pattern matching [laughs] in Ruby 3+ versions, it went awesome. And I'm really excited about that future that we now live in. STEPH: I wish we had that for so many more things in our life [laughs] of like, here's a warning, and it's like, no, no, I've seen the future. It's all right. Or you're totally right; I should avoid and back out of this now. CHRIS: If only we could know how the things would play out, you know. But yeah, so pattern matching, very cool. I'll include a link in the show notes to the particular page in the dry-monads docs. But there are also other cool things on the internet. In an unrelated but also cool thing that I found this week, we use Tuple a lot within our organization for pair programming. For anyone who's not familiar with it, it's a really wonderful piece of technology that allows you to pair program pretty seamlessly, better video quality, all of those nice things that we want. But I found there was just the tiniest bit of friction in starting a Tuple call. I know I want to pair with this person. And I have to go up and click on the little menu bar, and then I have to find their name, then I have to click a button. That's just too much. That's not how...I want to live my life at the keyboard. I have a thing called Bartender, which is a little menu bar manager utility app that will collapse down and hide the icons. But it's also got a nice, little hotkey accessible pop-up window that allows me to filter down and open one of the menu bar pop-out menus. But unfortunately, when that happens, the Tuple window isn't interactive at that point. I can't use the arrow keys to go up and down. And so I was like, oh, man, I wonder if there's like an Alfred workflow for this. And it turns out indeed there is actually managed by the kind folks at Tuple themselves. So I was able to find that, install it; it's great. I have it now. I can use that. So that was a nice little upgrade to my workflow. I can just type like TC space and then start typing out the person's name, and then hit enter, and it will start a call immediately. And it doesn't actually make me more productive, but it makes me happier. And some days, that's what matters. STEPH: That's always so impressive to me when that happens where you're like, oh, I need a thing. And then you went through the saga that you just went through. And then the people who manage the application have already gotten there ahead of you, and they're like, don't worry, we've created this for you. That's one of those just beautiful moments of like, wow, y'all have really thought this through on a bunch of different levels and got there before me. CHRIS: It's somewhat unsurprising in this case because it's a very developer-centric organization, and Ben's background being a thoughtbot developer and Alfred user, I'm almost certain. Although I've seen folks talking about Raycast, which is the new hotness on the quick launcher world. I started eons ago in Quicksilver, and then I moved to Alfred, I don't know, ten years ago. I don't know what time it is anymore. But I've been in Alfred land for a while, but Raycast seems very cool. Just as an aside, I have not allowed myself... [laughs] this is another one of those like; I do not have permission to go explore this new tool yet because I don't think it will actually make me more productive, although it could make me happier. So... STEPH: I haven't heard of that one, Raycast. I'm literally adding it to the show notes right now as a way so you can find The Duke later, and I can find Raycast later [chuckles] and take a look at it and check it out. Although I really haven't embraced the whole Alfred workflow. I've seen people really enjoy it and just rave about it and how wonderful it is. But I haven't really leaned into that part of the world; I don't know why. I haven't set any hard and fast rules for myself where I can't play around with these technologies, but I haven't taken the time to do it either. CHRIS: You've also not found yourself writing thousands of lines of Vimscript because you thought that was a good idea. So you don't need as many guardrails it would seem. That's my guess. STEPH: This is true. CHRIS: Whereas I need to be intentional [laughs] with how I structure my interaction with my dev tools. STEPH: Instead, I'm just porting over fixtures from one place to another. [laughs] That's the weird space that I'm living in instead. [laughs] CHRIS: But you're getting paid for that. No one paid me for the Vimscript I wrote. [laughter] STEPH: That's fair. Speaking around process-y things, there's something that's been on my mind that Valeria, another thoughtboter, suggested around how we structure our meetings and the default timing that we have for meetings. So Thursdays are my team-focused day. And it's the day where I have a lot of one on ones. And I realized that I've scheduled them back to back, which is problematic because then I have zero break in between them, which I'm less concerned about that because then I can go for an hour or something and not have a break. And I'm not worried about that part. But it does mean that if one of those discussions happens to go over just even for like two or three minutes, then it means that someone else is waiting for me in those two to three minutes. And that feels unacceptable to me. So Valeria brought up a really good idea where I think it's only with the Google Meet paid version. I could be wrong there. But I think with the paid version of it that then you can set the new default for how long a meeting is going to last. So instead of having it default to 30 minutes, have it default to 25 minutes. So then, that way, you do have that five-minute buffer. So if you do go over just like two or three minutes with someone, you've still got like two minutes to then hop to the next call, and nobody's waiting for you. Or if you want those five minutes to then grab some water or something like that. So we haven't implemented it just yet because then there's discussion around is this a new practice that we want everybody to move to? Because I mean, if just one person does it, it doesn't work. You really need everybody to buy into the concept of we're now defaulting to 25 versus 30-minute meetings. So I'll have to let you know how that goes. But I'm intrigued to try it out because I think that would be very helpful for me. Although there's a part of me that then feels bad because it's like, well, if I have 30 minutes to chat with somebody, but now I'm reducing it to 25 minutes each time, I didn't love that I'm taking time away from our discussion. But that still feels like a better outcome than making somebody wait for three to five minutes if something else goes over. So have you ever run into something like that? How do you manage back-to-back meetings? Do you intentionally schedule a break in between or? CHRIS: I do try to give myself some buffer time. I stack meetings but not so much so that they're just back to back. So I'll stack them like Wednesdays are a meeting-heavy day for me. That's intentional just to be like, all right, I know that my day is going to get chopped up. So let's just really lean into that, chop the heck out of Wednesday afternoons, and then the rest of the week can hopefully have slightly longer deep work-type sessions. And, yeah, in general, I try and have like a little gap in between them. But often what I'll do for that is I'll stagger the start of the next meeting to be rather than on the hour or the half-hour, I start it on the 15th minute. And so then it's sort of I now have these little 15-minute gaps in my workflow, which is enough time to do one or two small things or to go get a drink or whatever it is or if things do run over. Like, again, I feel what you're saying of like, I don't necessarily want to constrain a meeting. Or I also don't necessarily want to go into the habit of often over-running. I think it's good to be intentional. Start meetings on time, end meetings on time. If there's a great conversation that's happening, maybe there's another follow-up meeting that should happen or something like that. But for as nonsensical of a human as I believe myself to be, I am rather rigid about meetings. I try very hard to be on time. I try very hard to wrap them up on time to make sure I go to the next one. And so with that, the 15-minute staggering is what I've found works for me. STEPH: Yeah, that makes sense. One-on-ones feels special to me because I wholeheartedly agree with being very diligent about like, hey, this is our meeting time. Let's do a time check. Someone says that at the end, and then that way, everybody can move on. But one on ones are, there's more open discussion space, and I hate cutting people off, especially because it might not be until the last 15 minutes that you really got into the meat of the conversation. Or you really got somewhere that's a little bit more personal or things that you want to talk about. So if someone's like, "Yeah, let me tell you about my life goals," and you're like, "Oh, no, wait, sorry. We're out of time." That feels terrible and tragic to do. So I struggle with that part of it. CHRIS: I will say actually, on that note, I'm now thinking through, but I believe this to be true. Everyone that reports to me I have a 45-minute one-on-one with, and then my CEO I set up the one-on-one. So I also made that one a 45-minute one-on-one. And that has worked out really well. Typically, I try and structure it and reiterate this from time to time of, like, hey, this is your space, not mine. So let's have whatever conversation fits in here. And it's fine if we don't need to use the whole time, but I want to make sure that we have it and that we protect it. Because I often find much like retro, I don't know; I think everything's fine. And then suddenly the conversation starts, and you're like, you know what? Actually, I'm really concerned now that you mentioned it. And you need that sort of empty space that then the reality sort of pop up into. And so with one on one, I try and make sure that there is that space, but I'm fine with being like, we can cut this short. We can move on from one-on-one topics to more of status updates; let's talk about the work. But I want to make sure that we lead with is there anything deeper, any concerns, anything you want to talk through? And sort of having the space and time for that. STEPH: I like that. And I also think it speaks more directly to the problem I'm having because I'm saying that we keep running over a couple of minutes, and so someone else is waiting. So rather than shorten it, which is where I'm already feeling some pain...although I still think that's a good idea to have a default of 25-minute meetings so then that way, there is a break versus the full 30. So if people want to have back-to-back meetings, they still have a little bit of time in between. But for one on ones specifically, upping it to 45 minutes feels nice because then you've got that 15-minute buffer likely. I mean, maybe you schedule a meeting, but, I don't know, that's funky. But likely, you've got a 15-minute buffer until your next one. And then that's also an area that I feel comfortable in sharing with folks and saying, "Hey, I've booked this whole 45 minutes. But if we don't need the whole time, that's fine." I'm comfortable saying, "Hey, we can end early, and you can get more of your time back to focus on some other areas." It's more the cutting someone off when they're talking because I have to hop to the next thing. I absolutely hate that feeling. So thanks, I think I'll give that a go. I think I'll try actually bumping it up to 45 minutes, presuming that other people like that strategy too, since they're opting in [laughs] to the 45 minutes structure. But that sounds like a nice solution. CHRIS: Well yeah, happy to share it. Actually, one interesting thing that I'm realizing, having been a manager at thoughtbot and then now being a manager within Sagewell, the nature of the interactions are very different. With thoughtbot, I was often on other projects. I was not working with my team day to day in any real capacity. So it was once every two weeks, I would have this moment to reconnect with them. And there was some amount of just catching up. Ideally, not like status update, low-level sort of thing, but sort of just like hey, what have you been working on? What have you been struggling with? What have you been enjoying? There was more like I needed bigger space, I would say for that, or it's not surprising to me that you're bumping into 30 minutes not being quite long enough. Whereas regularly, in the one on ones that I have now, we end up cutting them short or shifting out of true one-on-one mode into more general conversation and chatting about Raycast or other tools or whatever it is because we are working together daily. And we're pairing very regularly, and we're all on the same project and all sorts of in sync and know what's going on. And we're having retro together. We have plenty of places to have the conversation. So the one-on-one again, still, I keep the same cadence and the same time structure just because I want to make sure we have the space for any day that we really need that. But in general, we don't. Whereas when I was at thoughtbot, it was all the more necessary. And I think for folks listening; I could imagine if you're in a team lead position and if you're working very closely with folks, then you may be on the one side of things versus if you're a little bit more at a distance from the work that they're doing day to day. That's probably an interesting question to ask, and think about how you want to structure it. STEPH: Yeah, I think that's an excellent point. Because you're right; I don't see these individuals. We may not have really gotten to interact, except for our daily syncs outside of that. So then yeah, there's always like a good first 10 minutes of where we're just chatting about life and catching up on how things are going before then we dive into some other things. So I think that's a really good point. Cool, solving management problems on the mic. I dig it. In slightly different news, I've joined a book club, which I'm excited about. This book club is about Ruby. It's specifically reading the book Ruby Science, which is a book that was written and published by thoughtbot. And it requires zero homework, which is my favorite type of book club. Because I have found I always want to be part of book clubs. I'm always interested in them, but then I'm not great at budgeting the time to make sure I read everything I'm supposed to read. And so then it comes time for folks to get together. And I'm like, well, I didn't do my homework, so I can't join it. But for this one, it's being led by Joël, and the goal is that you don't have to do the homework. And they're just really short sections. So whoever's in charge of leading that particular session of the book club they're going to provide an overview of what's covered in whatever the reading material that we're supposed to read, whatever topic we're covering that day. They're going to provide an overview of it, an example of it, so then we can all talk about it together. So if you read it, that's wonderful. You're a bit ahead and could even join the meeting like five minutes late. Or, if you haven't read it, then you could join and then get that update. So I'm very excited about it. And this was one of those books that I'd forgotten that thoughtbot had written, and it's one that I've never read. And it's public for anybody that's interested in it. So to cover a little bit of details about it, so it talks about code smells, ways to refactor code, and then also common patterns that you can use to solve some issues. So there's a lot of really just great content that's in it. And I'll be sure to include a link in the show notes for anyone else that's interested. CHRIS: And again, to reiterate, this book is free at this point. Previously, in the past, it was available for purchase. But at one point a number of years ago, thoughtbot set all of the books free. And so now that along with a handful of other books like...what's Edward's DNS book? Domain Name Sanity, I believe, is Edward's book name that Edward Loveall wrote when he was not a thoughtboter, [laughs] and then later joined as a thoughtboter, and then we made the book free. But on the specific topic of Ruby Science, that is a book that I will never forget. And the reason I will never forget it is that book was written by the one and only CTO Joe Ferris, who is an incredibly talented developer. And when I was interviewing with thoughtbot, I got down to the final day, which is a pairing session. You do a morning pairing session with one thoughtbot developer, and you do an afternoon pairing session with another thoughtbot developer. So in the morning, I was working with someone on actually a patch to Rails which was pretty cool. I'd never really done that, so that was exciting. And that went fine with the exception that I kept turning on Caps Lock on their keyboard because I was used to Caps Lock being CTRL, and then Vim was going real weird for me. But otherwise, that went really well. But then, in the afternoon, I was paired with the one and only CTO Joe Ferris, who was writing the book Ruby Science at that time. And the nature of the book is like, here's a code sample, and then here's that code sample improved, just a lot of sort of side-by-side comparisons of code. And I forget the exact way that this went, but I just remember being terrified because Joe would put some code up on the screen and be like, "What do you think?" And I was like, oh, is this the good code or the bad code? I feel like I should know. I do not know. I'm not sure. It worked out fine, I guess. I made it through. But I just remember being so terrified at that point. I was just like, oh no, this is how it ends for me. It's been a good run. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: I made it this far. I would have loved to work for this nice thoughtbot company, but here we are. But yeah, I made it through. [laughs] STEPH: There are so many layers to that too where it's like, well if I say it's terrible, are you going to be offended? Like, how's this going to go for me if I speak my truths? Or what am I going to miss? Yeah, that seems very interesting (I kind of like it.) but also a terrifying pairing session. CHRIS: I think it went well because I think the code...I'd been following thoughtbot's work, and I knew who Joe was and had heard him on podcasts and things. And I kind of knew roughly where things were, and I was like, that code looks messy. And so I think I mostly got it right, but just the openness of the question of like, what do you think? I was like, oh God. [laughs] So yeah, that book will always be in my memories, is how I would describe it. STEPH: Well, I'm glad it worked out so we could be here today recording a podcast together. [laughs] CHRIS: Recording a podcast together. Now that I say all that, though, it's been a long time since I've read the book. So maybe I'll take a revisit. And definitely interested to hear more about your book club and how that goes. But shifting ever so slightly (I don't have a lot to say on this topic.) but there's a new framework technology thing out there that has caught my attention. And this hasn't happened for a while, so it's kind of novel for me. So I tend to try and keep my eye on where is the sort of trend of web development going? And I found Inertia a while ago, and I've been very, very happy with that as sort of this is the default answer as to how I build websites. To be clear, Inertia is still the answer as to how I build websites. I love Inertia. I love what it represents. But I'm seeing some stuff that's really interesting that is different. Specifically, Remix.run is the thing that I'm seeing. I mentioned it, I think, in the last episode talking about there was some stuff that they were doing with data loading and async versus synchronous, and do you wait on it or? They had built some really nice levers and trade-offs into the framework. And there's a really great talk that Ryan Florence, one of the creators of Remix.run, gave about that and showed what they were building. I've been exploring it a little bit more in-depth now. And there is some really, really interesting stuff in Remix. In particular, it's a meta-framework, I think, is the nonsense phrase that we use to describe it. But it's built on top of React. That won't be true for forever. I think it's actually they would say it's more built on top of React Router. But it is very similar to Next.js for folks that have seen that. But it's got a little bit more thought around data loading. How do we change data? How do we revalidate data after? There's a ton of stuff that, having worked in many React client-side API-heavy apps that there's so much pain, cache invalidation. How do you think about the cache? When do you fetch from the network? How do you avoid showing 19 different loading spinners on the page? And Remix as a framework has some really, I think, robust and well-thought-out answers to a lot of that. So I am super-duper intrigued by what they're doing over there. There's a particular video that I think shows off what Remix represents really well. It's Ryan Florence, that same individual, the creator of Remix, building just a newsletter signup page. But he goes through like, let's start from the bare bones, simplest thing. It's just an input, and a form submits to the server. That's it. And so we're starting from web 2.0, long, long ago, sort of ideas, and then he gradually enhances it with animations and transitions and error states. And even at the end, goes through an accessibility audit using the screen reader to say, "Look, Remix helps you get really close because you're just using web fundamentals." But then goes a couple of steps further and actually makes it work really, really well for a screen reader. And, yeah, overall, I'm just super impressed by the project, really, really intrigued by the work that they're doing. And frankly, I see a couple of different projects that are sort of in this space. So yeah, again, very early but excited. STEPH: On their website...I'm checking it out as you're walking me through it, and on their website, they have "Say goodbye to Spinnageddon." And that's very cute. [laughs] CHRIS: There's some fundamental stuff that I think we've just kind of as a web community, we made some trade-offs that I personally really don't like. And that idea of just spinners everywhere just sending down a ball of application logic and a giant JavaScript file turning it on on someone's computer. And then immediately, it has to fetch back to the server. There are just trade-offs there that are not great. I love that Remix is sort of flipping that around. I will say, just to sort of couch the excitement that I'm expressing right now, that Remix exists in a certain place. It helps with building complex UIs. But it doesn't have anything in the data layer. So you have to bring your own data layer and figure out what that means. We have ActiveRecord within Rails, and it's deeply integrated. And so you would need to bring a Prisma or some other database connection or whatever it is. And it also doesn't have more sort of full-featured framework things. Like with Rails, it's very easy to get started with a background job system. Remix has no answer to that because they're like, no, no, this is what we're doing over here. But similarly, security is probably the one that concerns me the most. There's an open conversation in their discussion portal about CSRF protection and a back and forth of whether or not Remix should have that out of the box or not. And there are trade-offs because there are different adapters that you can use for auth. And each would require their own CSRF mitigation. But to me, that is the sort of thing that I would want a framework to have. Or I'd be interested in a framework that continues to build on top of Remix that adds in background jobs and databases and all that kind of stuff as a complete solution, something more akin to a Rails or a Laravel where it's like, here we go. This is everything. But again, having some of these more advanced concepts and patterns to build really, really delightful UIs without having to change out the fundamental way that you're building things. STEPH: Interesting. Yeah, I think you've answered a couple of questions that I had about it. I am curious as to how it fits into your current tech stack. So you've mentioned that you're excited and that it's helpful. But given that you already have Rails, and Inertia, and Svelte, does it plug and play with the other libraries or the other frameworks that you have? Are you going to have to replace something to then take advantage of Remix? What does that roadmap look like? CHRIS: Oh yeah, I don't expect to be using Remix anytime soon. I'm just keeping an eye on it. I think it would be a pretty fundamental shift because it ends up being the server layer. So it would replace Rails. It would replace the Inertia within the stack that I'm using. This is why as I started, I was like, Inertia is still my answer. Because Inertia integrates really well with Rails and allows me to do the sort of it's not progressive enhancement, but it's like, I want fancy UI, and I don't want to give up on Rails. And so, Inertia is a great answer for that. Remix does not quite fit in the same way. Remix will own all of the request-response lifecycle. And so, if I were to use it, I would need to build out the rest of that myself. So I would need to figure out the data layer. I would need to figure out other things. I wouldn't be using Rails. I'm sure there's a way to shoehorn the technologies together, but I think it sort of architecturally would be misaligned. And so my sense is that folks out there are building...they're sort of piecing together parts of the stack to fill out the rest. And Remix is a really fantastic controller and view from their down experience and routing layer. So it's routing, controller, view I would say Remix has a really great answer to, but it doesn't have as much of the other stuff. Whereas in my case, Inertia and Rails come together and give me a great answer to the whole story. STEPH: Got it. Okay, that's super helpful. CHRIS: But yeah, again, I'm in very much the exploratory phase. I'm super intrigued by a lot of what I've seen of it and also just sort of the mindset, the ethos of the project as it were. That sounds fancy as I say it, but it's what I mean. I think they want to build from web fundamentals and then enhance the experience on top of that, and I think that's a really great way to go. It means that links will work. It means that routing and URLs will work by default. It means that you won't have loading spinner Armageddon, and these are core fundamentals that I believe make for good websites and web applications. So super interested to see where they go with it. But again, for me, I'm still very much in the Rails Inertia camp. Certainly, I mean, I've built Sagewell on top of it, so I'm going to be hanging out with it for a while, but also, it would still be my answer if I were starting something new right now. I'm just really intrigued by there's a new example out there in the world, this Remix thing that's pushing the envelope in a way that I think is really great. But with that, my now…what was that? My second or my third rave? Also called the positive rant, as we call it. But yeah, I think on that note, what do you think? Should we wrap up? STEPH: Let's wrap up. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Like most people, shows like CSI, Law and Order, or even Dexter, may have you convinced that the science used to convict people is airtight. Everything from bite marks, blood spatter, and even finger prints, must be scientifically valid...right?    What if I told you, almost all of it is predicated on junk science and the failings of the legal system to catch it? Today's guest is on the show to highlight this and the infrastructure that has been created to support wrongful convictions.    Chris Fabricant is the Director of Strategic Litigation at the Innocence Project and the author of Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System.   In this episode, we will go over some of the findings in Chris' book that help us to understand how the legal system allowed bad science to become such a powerful tool to wrongfully convict thousands of Americans.   Giving his solutions to the junk science problem, Chris will leave you with the hope that it will one day be no more.    Key Topics and Takeaways:   Hunter's definition of a wrongful conviction. [6:25] How junk science got into the criminal system. [13:37] The issue with pattern matching. [23:09] Society's strong desire to punish. [31:12] How the Supreme Court has played a role in wrongful convictions and mass incarceration. [37:06] The principle of finality. [38:03] Denialism around actual innocence. [47:17] Promoting scientific literacy among lawyers. [1:06:25]   Guest:   Chris Fabricant, Director of Strategic Litigation, Innocence Project   Resources:   2009 National Academy of Sciences Report  2016 PCAST Forensic Science Report  Buy Chris's Book Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System    Memorable Quotes:   “I don't think people actually want to live in the type of society that our legal principles say we should be living in.” (4:50, Hunter)   “What we know about the law as compared to science is that the law is stable.” (22:17, Chris)   “In reality, crime usually happens. Police get together, form their suspect. And then, a lot of the analysis of the evidence is then with that suspect in mind.” (27:39, Hunter)   “Science should always be objective, it should be separated from the adversarial process.” (29:40, Chris)   “There's widespread scientific illiteracy in the bar.” [50:59, Chris)   “Once you're accused unless you can afford really, really good counsel, you're kind of fucked.” (59:56, Hunter)   Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram Twitter www.publicdefenseless.com

Another toaster strudel debate?! Plus, the results are in for the most listened-to podcast in the RoR community! :: drum roll :: Steph has a "Dear Gerrit" message to share. Chris has a follow-up on mobile app strategy. The Bike Shed: 328: Terrible Simplicity (https://www.bikeshed.fm/328) When To Fetch: Remixing React Router - Ryan Florence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95B8mnhzoCM) Virtual Event - Save Time & Money with Discovery Sprints (https://thoughtbot.com/events/save-time-money-with-discovery) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: STEPH: thoughtbot's next virtual event "Save Time & Money with Discovery Sprints" is coming up on June 17th, from 2 - 3 PM Eastern. It's a discussion with team members from product management, design and development. From a developer perspective, topics will include how to plan a product's architecture, both the MVP and future version, how to lead a tech spikes into integrations and conduct a build vs buy reviews of third party providers. Head to thoughtbot.com/events to register, the event is June 17th 2 - 3 PM ET. Even if you can't make it, registering will get you on the list for the recording. CHRIS: We're the second-best. We're the second-best. Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, what's new in your world? STEPH: I'm very happy to report that I picked up a treat from the store recently. So while I was in Boston and we were hanging out in person, we talked about Pop-Tarts because that always comes up as a debate, as it should. And then also Toaster Strudels came up, so I now have a package of Toaster Strudels, and those are legit. Pop-Tart or Toaster Strudel, I am team Toaster Strudel, which I know you're going to ask me about icing and if I put it on there, so go ahead. I'm going to pause. [laughs] CHRIS: It sounds like I don't even need to say anything. But yes, inquiring minds want to know. STEPH: I think that's also my very defensive response because yes, I put icing on my Toaster Strudel. CHRIS: How interesting. [laughs] STEPH: But it feels like a whole different class of pastry. So I'm very defensive about my stance on Pop-Tarts with no icing put Strudel with icing. CHRIS: A whole different class of pastry. Got it. Noted. Understood. So did you travel? Like, were these in your luggage that you flew back with? STEPH: [laughs] Oh no. They would be all gooey and melty. No, we bought them when we got back to North Carolina. Oh, that'd be a pro move; just pack little individual Strudels as your airplane snack. Ooh, I might start doing that now. That sounds like a great airplane snack. CHRIS: You got to be careful though if the icing, you know, if it's pressurized from ground level and then you get up there, and it explodes. And you gotta be careful. Or is it the reverse? It's lower pressure up in the plane. So it might explode. STEPH: [laughs] Either way, it might explode. CHRIS: Well, yeah. If you somehow buy a packet of icing that is sky icing that is at that pressure, and you bring it down, then...but if you take it up and down, I think it's fine. If you open it at the top, you might be in danger. If you open icing under the ocean, I think nothing's going to happen. So these are the ranges that we're playing with. STEPH: I will be very careful sky icing and probably pack two so that way I have a backup just in case. So if one explodes, we'll be like, all right, now I know what I'm working with and be more prepared for the next one. CHRIS: That's just smart. STEPH: I try to make smart travel decisions, Toaster Strudels on the go. Aside from travel treats and sky icing, I have some news regarding Planet Argon, who is a Ruby on Rails consultancy regarding their latest published this year's Ruby on Rails community survey results. And so they list a lot of fabulous different topics in there. And one of them includes a learning section that highlights most listened to podcasts in the Ruby on Rails community as well as blogs and some other resources. And Bike Shed is listed as the second most listened to podcast in the Ruby on Rails community, so whoo, golf clap. CHRIS: Fantastic. STEPH: And in addition to that, the thoughtbot blog got a really nice shout-out. So the thoughtbot blog is in the number two spot for the most visited blogs in the community. In the first spot is Ruby Weekly, which is like, you know, okay, that feels fair, that feels good. So it's really exciting for the thoughtbot blog because a lot of people work really hard on curating and creating that content. So that's wonderful that so many people are enjoying it. And then I should also highlight that for the podcast in first place is Remote Ruby, so congrats to Chris, Jason, and Andrew for grabbing that number one spot. And Brittany Martin, host of the Ruby on Rails Podcast, along with Brian Mariani, Jemma Issroff, and Nick Schwaderer, are in the number three spot. And some people say that Ruby is losing steam but look at all that content and all those highly ranked podcasts. I mean, we like Ruby so much we're spending time recording ourselves talking about it. So I say long live Ruby, long live Rails. CHRIS: Yes. Long live Ruby indeed. And yeah, it's definitely an honor to be on the list and to be amongst such other wonderful shows. Certainly big fans of the work of those other podcasts. We even did a joint adventure with them at one point, and that was a really wonderful experience, so yeah, honored to be on the list alongside them. And to have folks out there in the world listening to our tech talk and nonsense always nice to hear. STEPH: Yeah. You and I show up and say lots of silly things and technical things into the podcast. The true heroes are the ones that went and voted. So thank you to everybody who voted. That's greatly appreciated. It's really nice feedback. Because we get listener responses and questions, and those are wonderful because it lets us know that people are listening. But I have to say that having the survey results is also really nice. It lets us know people like the show. Oh, but I did go back and look at some of the previous stats because then I was like, huh, so I'm paying attention. I looked at this year's, and I was like, I wonder what last year's was or the year before that. And I think this survey comes out every two years because I didn't see one for 2021. But I did find the survey results for 2020, which we were in the number one spot for 2020, and Remote Ruby was in the second spot. So I feel like now we've got a really nice, healthy podcasting war situation going on to see who can grab the first spot. We've got two years, everybody, to see who [laughs] grabs the number one spot. That's a lot of prep time for a competition. CHRIS: Yeah, I feel like we should be like, I don't know, planning elaborate pranks on them or something like that now. Is that where this is at? It's something like that, I think. STEPH: I think so. I think this is where you put like sky frosting inside someone's suitcase, and that's the type of prank that you play. [laughs] CHRIS: The best of pranks. STEPH: We'll definitely put together a little task force. And we'll start thinking of pranks that we all need to start playing on each other for the podcasting wars that we're entering for the next few years. But anywho, what's going on in your world? CHRIS: Let's see, what's going on in my world? A fun thing happened recently. I had a chance to reflect back on some architectural choices that we've made in the Sagewell platform. And one of those specific choices is how we've approached building our native mobile apps. We made what some listeners may remember is an interesting set of choices. In particular, in Episode 328, which we'll include a link to in the show notes, I shared with you the approach that we're doing, which is basically like, Inertia is great, web user great. We like the web as a platform. What if we were to wrap it in a native shell and find this interesting and somewhat unique hybrid trade-off point? And so, at that point, we were building it. We had most of it built out, and things were going quite well. I think we maybe had the iOS app in the store and the Android app approaching the store or something like that. At this point, both apps have been released to the store, so they are live. Production users are signing in. It's wonderful. But I had a moment in the past couple of weeks to reassess or look at that set of choices and evaluate it. And thankfully, I'm happy with the choices that we've made. So that's good. But to get into the specifics, there were two things that happened that really, really framed the choice that we made, so one was we introduced a major new feature. We basically overhauled the first-run experience, the onboarding that users experience, and added a new, pretty fundamental facet to the platform. It's a bunch of new screens, and flows, and error states, and all of this complexity. And in the process, we iterated on it a bunch. Like, first, it looked like this, and then we changed the order of the screens and switched out the error messages, and et cetera, et cetera. And I'll be honest, we never even thought about the mobile apps. It just wasn't even a consideration. And interestingly, we did as a final check before going fully live and releasing this out to the full production audience; we did spot check it in the mobile apps, and it didn't work. But it didn't work for a very specific, boring, technical reason that we were able to resolve. It has to do with iframes and WebViews and embedded something, something. And we had to set a flag. Thankfully, it was solvable without a deploy of the native mobile apps. And otherwise, we never thought about the native apps. Specifically, we were able to add this fundamental set of features to our platform. And they just worked in native mobile. And they were the same as they roughly are if you're on a mobile WebView or if you're on a desktop web, you know, slightly different in terms of form factor. But the functionality was all the same. And critically, the error states and the edge cases and the flow, there's so much to think about when you're adding a nontrivial feature to an app. And the fact that we didn't have to consider it really spoke to the choice that we made here. And again, to name it, the choice that we made is we're basically just reusing the same WebViews, the same Rails controllers, and the same what are Svelte components under the hood but the same essentially view layer as well. And we are wrapping that in a native iOS. It's a Swift application shell, and on Android, it's a Kotlin application shell. But under the hood, it's the same web stuff. And that was really great. We just got these new features. And you know what? If we have to rip that whole set of functionality out, again, we won't need to deploy. We won't need to rethink it. Or, if we want to subtly tweak it, we can do that. If we want to think about feature flags or analytics, or error states or error reporting, all of this just naturally falls out of the approach that we took. And that was really wonderful. STEPH: That's super nice. I also love this saga of like, you made a choice, and then you're coming back to revisit and share how it's going. So as someone who's never done this before, in regards of wrapping an application in the manner that you have and then publishing it and distributing it that way, what does that process look like? Is this one of those like you run a command, and literally, it's going to wrap the application and then make it hostable on the different mobile app stores? Or what's that? Am I oversimplifying the process? What does that look like? CHRIS: I think there are a lot of platforms or frameworks I think would probably be the better word like Capacitor is something that comes to mind or Ionic or Expo. There are a handful of them that are a little more fully featured in what they provide. So you just point us at your React Views and whatnot, and we'll wrap that up, and it'll be great. But those are for, I may be overgeneralizing here, but my understanding is those are for more heavy client-side bundles that are talking to a common API. And so you're basically taking your same rich client-side application and bundling that up for reuse on the native app, the native app platforms. And so I think those do have some release to the store sort of thing. In our case, we went a little bit further with that integration wrapper thing that we built. So that is a thing that we maintain. We have a Sagewell iOS repo and a Sagewell Android repo. There's a bunch of Swift and Kotlin code, respectively, in each of them, and we deploy to the stores manually. We're doing that whole process. But critically, the code that is in each of those repositories is just the bridge glue code that says, oh, when this Inertia navigation event happens, I'm going to push a WebView to the navigation stack. And that's what that is. I'm going to render the tab bar of buttons at the bottom with the navigation elements that I get from the server. But it's very much server-driven UI, is the way that I would describe it. And it's wrapping WebViews versus actually having the whole client bundle wrapped up in the thing. It's unfortunately subtle to try and talk through on the radio, but yeah. [laughs] STEPH: You're doing great; this is helping. So if there's a change that you want to make, you go to the Rails application, and you make that change. And then do you need to update anything on that iOS repo? It sounds like you don't, which then you don't have to push a new update to the store. CHRIS: Correct. For the vast majority of things, we do not need to make any changes. It's very rare for us to deploy the iOS or the Android app is a different way to put it or to push new releases to the store. It happens we may want to add a new feature to the sort of bridge layer that we built, but increasingly, those are rare. And now it's basically like, yeah, we're just wrapping those WebViews, and it's going great. And again, to name it, it's a trade-off. It's an intentional trade-off that we've made. We're never going to have the richest, most deep platform integration, smooth experience. We are making a small trade-off on that front. But given where we're at as an organization, given how early we are, how much iteration and change, we chose an architecture that optimizes for that change. And so again, like what you just said, yeah, I can...you know how it's really nice to be able to deploy six times a day on a web app, and that's a very straightforward thing to do? It is not so straightforward in the native mobile world. And so, we now have afforded ourselves the ability to do that. But critically, and this is the fun part in my mind, have the trade-offs in the controls. So if we were just like, it's just a WebView, and that's it, and we put it in the stores, and we're done, that is too far of an extreme in my mind. I think the performance trade-offs, the experience trade-offs, it wouldn't feel like a native app like in a deep way, in a problematic way. And so as an example, we have a navigation bar at the top of our app, particularly on iOS, that is native iOS navigation. And we have a tab bar at the bottom, which is native tab UI element. I forget actually what it's called, but it's those elements. And we hide the web application navigation when we're in the mobile context. So we actually swap those out and say, like, let's actually promote these to formal native functionality. We also, within our UI on the web, have a persistent button in the top right corner of your screen that says, "Need help? Reach out to your retirement advocate." who is the person that you get to work with. You can send questions, et cetera, et cetera. It's this little help sidebar drawer thing that pops out. And we have that as a persistent HTML button in the top corner of the web frame. But when we're on native, we push that up as a distinct element in the native UI section. And then again, the bridge that I'm talking about allows for bi-directional communication between the JavaScript side and the native side or the native side and the JavaScript side. And so it's those sorts of pieces that have now afforded us all of the freedom to tinker, and we don't need to re-release where we're like, oh, we want to add a new weird button that does a thing in the WebView when you click on a button outside the WebView. We now just have that built-in. STEPH: Yeah, I really like the flexibility that you're describing. When you promoted those elements to be more native-friendly so, like the navigation or the footer or the little get help chat, is that something that then your team implemented in like the iOS or the Kotlin repo? Okay, I see you nodding, but other people can't see that, so...[laughs] CHRIS: Yeah. I was going to also say the words, but yes, those are now implemented as native parts. So the thing that we built isn't purely agnostic decoupled. It is Sagewell-specific; a lot of it is low-level. Like, let's say we want to wrap an Inertia app in a native mobile wrapper. Like, 90% of the code in it is that, but then there are little bits that are like, and put a button up there. And that button is the Sagewell button. And so it's not entirely decoupled from us. But it mostly is this agnostic bridge to connect things together. STEPH: Yeah, the way you're describing it sounds really nice in terms of you're able to get out the app quickly and have a mobile app quickly that works on both platforms, and then you're still able to deploy changes without having to push that. That was always my biggest mental, or emotional hurdle with the idea of mobile development was the concept of that you really had to batch everything together and then submit it for review and approval and then get it released. And then you got to hope people then upgrade and get the newest version. And it just felt like such a process, not that I ever did much of it. This was all just even watching like the mobile team and all the work that they had to do. And I had sympathy pains for them. But the fact that this approach allows you to avoid a lot of that but still have some nice, customized, more native elements. Yeah, I'm basically just recapping everything you said because I like all of it. CHRIS: Well, thank you, friend. Like I said, I've really enjoyed it, and similar to you, I'm addicted to the feedback loop of the web. It's beautiful. I can deploy ten times or however many I want. Anytime I want, I can push out a new version. And that ability to iterate, to test, to explore, to tweak, to not have to do as much formal testing upfront because I'm terrified that if a bug sneaks out, then, it'll take me two weeks to address it; it just is so, so freeing. And so to give that up moving into a native context. Perhaps I'm fighting too hard to hold on to my dream of the ability to rapidly iterate. But I really do believe in that and especially for where we're at as an organization right now. But, and a critical but here, again, it's a trade-off like anything else. And recently, I happened to be out about in the town, and I decided, oh, you know what? Let me open up the app. Let me see what it's like. And I wasn't on great internet. And so I open the app, and it loads because, you know, it's a native app, so it pops up. But then the thing that actually happened is a loading spinner in the middle of the screen and sort of a gray nothing for a little while until the server request to fetch the necessary UI elements to render the login screen appeared. And that experience was not great. In particular, that experience is core to the experience of using the app every single time. Every time you use it, you're going to have a bad time because we're re-downloading that UI element. And there's caching, and there's things that could happen there to help with that. But fundamentally, that experience is going to be a pretty common one. It's the first thing that you experience when you're opening the app. And so I noticed that and I chatted with the team, and I was like, hey, I feel like this is actually something that fixing this I think would really fundamentally move us along that spectrum of like, we've definitely made some trade-offs here. But overall, it feels snappy and like a native app. And so, we opted to prioritize work on a native login screen for both platforms. This also allows us to more deeply integrate. So particularly, we're going to get biometric logins like fingerprints or face scans, or whatever it is. But critically, it's that experience of like, I open the Sagewell native app on my iOS phone, and then it loads immediately. And then I show it my face like we do these days, and then it opens up and shows me everything that I want to see inside of it. And it's that first-run experience that feels worth the extra effort and the constraints. Because now that it's native mobile, that means in order to change it, we have to do a deploy, not a deploy, release; that's what they call it in the native world. [laughs] You can tell I'm well-versed in this ecosystem. But yeah, we're now choosing that trade-off. And what I really liked about this sort of set of things like the feature that we were able to just accidentally get for free on native because that's how this thing is built. And then likewise, the choice to opt into a fully native login screen like having that lever, having that control over I'm going to optimize for iteration generally, but where it's important, we want to optimize for performance and experience. And now we have this little slider that we can go back and forth. And frankly, we could choose to screen by screen just slowly replace everything in the app with true native WebViews backed by APIs. And we could Ship of Theseus style replace every element of the app with true native mobile things until none of the old bridge code exists. And our users, in theory, would never know. Having that flexibility is really nice given the trade-off and the choice that we've made. STEPH: You said a word there that I missed. You said ship something style. CHRIS: Ship of Theseus. STEPH: What is that? CHRIS: It's like an old biblical story, I want to say, but it's basically the idea of, like, you have the ship. And then some boards start to rot out, so replace those boards. And then the mast breaks, you replace the mast. And slowly, you've replaced every element on the ship. Is it still the same ship at that point? And so it's sort of a philosophical question. So if we replace every single view in this app with a native view, is it still the same map? Philosophers will philosophize about it forever, but whatever. As long as we get to keep iterating and shipping software, then I'm happy. STEPH: [laughs] Y'all philosophize. That's that word, right? CHRIS: Yeah. STEPH: And do your philosopher thing. We'll just keep building and shipping. CHRIS: I don't know if I pronounced it right. It's like either Theseus or Theseus, and I'm sure I said the wrong one. And now that I've said the other, I'm sure both of them are wrong somehow. It's like a USB where there's up and down, and yet somehow it takes three tries. So anyway, I may have mispronounced it, and I may be misattributing it, but that's the idea I was going for. STEPH: Well, given I wasn't even familiar with the word until just now, I'm going to give both pronunciations a thumbs up. I also really like how you decided that for the login screen, that's the area that you don't want people to wait because I agree if you're opening an application or opening...maybe it's the first time, maybe it's the 100th time. Who knows? But that feels important. Like, that needs to be snappy. I need to know it's responsive. And it builds trust from the minute that I clicked on that application. And if it takes a long time, I just immediately I'm like, what are y'all doing? Are y'all real? Do you know what you're doing over there? So I like how you focused on that experience. But then once I log in, like if something is slow to log me in, I will make up excuses for the application all day where I'm like, well, you know, maybe it's my connection. It's fine. I can wait for the next screen to load. That feels more reasonable. And it doesn't undermine my trust nearly as much as when I first click on the app. So that feels like a really nice trade-off as well, or at least a nice area that you've improved while still having those other trade-offs and benefits that you mentioned. CHRIS: To highlight it, you used a phrase there which I really liked. Like, it's building trust. If something's a little bit off in that first run experience every single time, then it kind of puts a question in the back of your head, maybe not even consciously. But you're just kind of looking at it, and you're like, what are you doing there? What are you up to, friend? Humans say to the apps they use on their phone. That's normal, right? When you talk... But to name it, we've also done a round of performance work throughout the app. And so there are a couple of layers to it. But it was work that we had planned for a while, but we kept deferring. But now that we're seeing more usage of the native apps, the native apps experience the same surface area of performance stuff but all the more so because they may be on degraded network connections, et cetera. And so this is another example where this whole thing kind of pays off. The performance work that we did affects everything. It affects the web. It's the same under the hood. It's let's reduce the network requests that we're making in the payloads that we're sending, particularly the network requests to upstream things, so like the banking partner that we're using and those APIs, like, collating all the data to then render the screen. Because of Inertia, we only have a single sort of back and forth conversation via the API as opposed to I think it's pretty common to have like seven different APIs and four different spinners on the screen. We're not doing that, none of that on my watch. [chuckles] But we minimize the background calls to the other parties that we're integrating with. And then, we reduce the payload of data that we're sending on each request. And each of those were like, we had to think about things and tweak and poke, but again it's uniform. So mobile web has that now, desktop web has that now. Android, iOS, they all just inherited it sort of that just happened one day without a deploy or release, without a release of either of the native mobile apps. We did deploy to the web to make that happen, but that's easy. I can do that a bunch of times a day. One last thing I want to share as we're on this topic of trade-offs and levers, there was a really great conference talk that I watched recently, which was Ryan Florence of remix.run also React Router fame if you're familiar with him from that. But he was talking about the most recent version of Remix, which is their meta framework on top of React. But they've done some really interesting stuff around processing data, fetching data, when and how to sequence that. And again, that thing that I talked about of nine different loading spinners on the screen, Remix is taking a very different approach but is targeting that same thing of like, that's not great for user experience. Cumulative layout shift being the actual number that you can monitor for this. But in that talk, there are features that they've added to Remix as a framework where you can just decide, like, do we wait for this or do we not? Do we make sure we have all of the data, or do we say, you know what? Actually, this is going to be below the fold. So it's okay to defer loading this until after we send down the first payload. And then we'll kick in, and we'll do it from the client-side. But it's this wonderful feature of the framework that they're adding in where there's basically just a keyword that you can add to sort of toggle that behavior. And again, it's this idea of like trade-offs. Are we okay with more layout shift, or are we okay with more waiting? Which is it that we're going to optimize for? And I really love that idea of putting that power very simply in the hands of the developers to make those trade-off decisions and optimize over time for what's important. So we'll share a link to that talk in the show notes as well. But it was very much in the same space of like, how do I have the power to decide and to change my mind over time? That's what I want. But yeah, with that, I think that's enough of me updating on the mobile app. I'll continue to share as new things happen. But again, I'm at this point very happy with where we're at. So yeah, it's been fun. But yeah, what else is up in your world? STEPH: I have a dear Gerrit message that I wrote earlier, so I want to share that with you. Gerrit is the system that we're using for when we push up code changes that then manages very similar in the competitive space of like GitHub and GitLab, and Bitbucket. And so the team that I'm working with we are using Gerrit. And Gerrit and I, you know, we get along for the most part. We've managed to have a working relationship. [chuckles] But this week, I wrote my dear Gerrit letter is that I really miss being able to tell a story with my commit messages. That is the biggest pain that I'm feeling right now. So for anyone that's less familiar or if you already are familiar with Gerrit, each change that Gerrit shows represents a single commit that's under review. And each change is identified by a Change-Id. So the basic concept of Gerrit is that you only have one commit per review. So if you were to translate that to GitHub terminology, every pull request is only going to have one commit, and so you really can't push up multiple. And so, where that has been causing me the most pain is I miss being able to tell a story. So like even simple stories that are like, hey, I removed something that's not used. I love separating that type of stuff into its own commit just so then people can see that as they're going through review. Now, before I merge, I'm likely to squash, and that doesn't feel important that it needs to be its own commit. That's really just for the reviewer so they can follow along for the changes. But the other one, I can slowly get over that one. Because essentially, the way I get around that is then when I do push up my code for review, is I then go through my change request, and then I just add comments. So I will highlight that line and say, "Hey, I'm removing this because it's not in use." And so, I found a workaround for that one. But the one I haven't found a workaround for is that I don't push up my local work very often because I love having lots of local, tiny, green commits so that way I can know the progress that I'm at. I know where I'm headed. Also, I have a safe space to roll back to, but then that means that I may have five or six commits that I have locally, but I haven't pushed up somewhere. And that is bothering me more and more hour by hour the more I think about it that I can't push stuff up because it makes me nervous. Because, I mean, usually, at least by the end of the day, I push everything up, so it's stored somewhere. And I don't have to worry about that work disappearing. Now I am working on a dev machine. So there is that aspect of it's technically...it's not even on my local machine. It is stored somewhere that I should still be able to access. CHRIS: What's a dev machine? The way you're saying it, it sounds like it's a virtual machine, not like a laptop. But what's a dev machine? STEPH: Good question. So the dev machine is a remote server or remote machine that then I am accessing, and then that's where I'm performing. That's where I'm writing all of my work. And then that's also kind of the benefit is everything is not local; it's controlled by the team. So then that also means that other teams, other individuals can help set up these environments for future developers. So then you have that consistency across everyone's working with the same Rails version, or gems, or has access to the same tools. So in that sense, my work isn't just on my laptop because then that would really worry me because then I've got nowhere...it's not backed up anywhere. So at least it is somewhere it's being stored that then could be accessed by someone. So actually, now, as I'm talking this through, that does help alleviate my concern about this a bit. [laughs] But I still miss it; I still miss being able to just push up my work and then have multiple commits. And I looked into it because I was like, well, maybe I'm misunderstanding something about Gerrit, and there's a way around this. And that's still always a chance. But from the research that I've done, it doesn't seem to be. And there are actually two very fiery takes that I saw that I have to share because they made me laugh. When I was Googling, the question of like, "Can I push up multiple commits to one single Gerrit CR? Or is there just a way to, like, can I have this concept of like a branch and then I have many commits, but then I turn it into one CR? Whatever the world would give me. What do they have? [laughs] I'm laughing just looking at this now. One of the responses was, have you tried squashing your commits into one commit? And I was like, [laughs] "Yeah, that's not what I had in mind, but sure." And then the other one, this is the more fiery take. They were very defensive about Gerrit, and they wrote that "People who don't like Gerrit usually just hack shit together. They cut corners and love squashing commits or throwing away history. And those people hate Gerrit. Developers who care love it. It's definitely possible and easy to produce agile software." And I just...that made me laugh. I was like, cool, I'm a developer that cuts corners and loves squashing commits. [laughs] CHRIS: So you don't care is what that take says. STEPH: I'm a developer who does not care. CHRIS: You know, Steph, I've worked with you for a while. And I've been looking for the opportunity to have this hard conversation with you. But I just wish you cared a little more about the software that you're writing, about the people that you're working with, about the commits that you're authoring. I just see it in every facet of your work. You just don't care. To be very clear for anyone listening at home, that is the deepest of sarcasm that I can make. Steph cares so very much. It's one of the things that I really enjoy about you. STEPH: I mean, we had the episode about toxic traits. This would have been the perfect time to confront me about my lack of caring about software and the processes that we have. So winding down on that saga, it seems to be the answer is no, friend; I cannot push up multiple commits. Oh, I tried to hack it. I am someone that tries to hack shit together because I tried to get around it just to see what would happen. [laughs] Because the docs had suggested that each change is identified by a Change-Id. And I was like, hmm, so what if there were two commits that had the same Change-Id, would Gerrit treat those as patch sets? Because right now, when you push up a change, you can see all the different patch sets, so that's nice. So that's a nice feature of Gerrit as you can see the history of, like, someone pushed up this change. They took in some feedback. They pushed up a new change. And so that history is there for each push that someone has provided. And I wondered maybe if they had the same Change-Id that then the patch sets would show the first commit and then the second commit. And so I manually altered the commits two of them to reference the same Change-Id. And I have to say, Gerrit was on to me because they gave me a very nice error message that said, "Same Change-Id and multiple changes. Squash the commits with the same Change-Ids or ensure Change-Ids are unique for each commit. And I thought, dang, Gerrit, you saw me coming. [laughs] So that didn't work either. I'm still in a world of where I now wait. I wait until I'm ready for someone to review stuff, and I have to squash everything, and then I go comment on my CRs to help out reviewers. CHRIS: I really like the emotional backdrop that you provided here where you're spending a minute; you're like, you know what? Maybe it's me. And there's the classic Seymour Skinner principle from The Simpsons. Am I out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong. [laughs] And I liked that you took us on a whole tour of that. You're like, maybe it's me. I'll maybe read up. Nope, nope. So yeah, that's rough. There's a really interesting thing of tools constraining you. And then sometimes being like, I'm just going to yield control and back away and accept this thing that doesn't feel right to me. Like, Prettier does a bunch of stuff that I really don't like. It shapes code in a way, and I'm just like, no, that's not...nope, you know what? I've chosen to never care about this again. And there's so much utility in that choice. And so I've had that work out really well. Like with Prettier, that's a great example whereby yielding control over to this tool and just saying, you know what? Whatever you produce, that is our format; I don't care. And we're not going to talk about it, and that's that. That's been really useful for myself and for the teams that I'm on to just all kind of adopt that mindset and be like, yeah, no, it may not be what I would choose but whatever. And then we have nice formatted code; it's great. It happens automatically, love it. But then there are those times where I'm like; I tried to do that because I've had success with that mindset of being like, I know my natural thing is to try and micromanage and control every little bit of this code. But remember that time where it worked out really well for me to be like, I don't care, I'm just going to not care about this thing? And I try to not care about some stuff, which it sounds like that's what you're doing right here. [laughs] And you're like, I tried to not care, but I care. I care so much. And now you're in that [chuckles] complicated space. So I feel for you, Steph. I'm sorry you're in that complicated space of caring so much and not being able to turn that off [laughs] nor configure the software to do the thing you want. STEPH: I appreciate it. I should also share that the team that I'm working with they also don't love this. Like, they don't love Gerrit. So when I shared in the Slack channel my dear Gerrit message, they're both like, "Yeah, we feel you. [laughs] Like, we're in the same spot," which was also helpful because I just wanted to validate like, this is the pain I'm feeling. Is someone else doing something clever or different that I just don't know about? And so that was very helpful for them to say, "Nope, we feel you. We're in the same spot. And this is just the state that we're in." I think they have started transitioning some other repos over to GitLab and have several repos in Gitlab, but this one is still currently using Gerrit. So they very much commiserate with some of the things that I'm feeling and understand. And this does feel like one of those areas where I do care deeply. And frankly, this is one of those spaces that I do care about, but it's also like, I can work around it. There are some reasonable things that I can do, and it's fine as we just talked through. Like, the fact that my commits are not just locally on my machine already makes me feel better now that I've really processed that. So there are lower risks. It is more of just like a workflow. It's just, you know, it's crushing my work vibe. CHRIS: Harshing your buzz. STEPH: In the great words of Queen Elsa, I gotta let it go. This is the thing I'm letting go. So that's kind of what's going on in my world. What else is going on in your world? CHRIS: Well, first and foremost, fantastic reference and segue. I really liked that. But yeah, let's see, [laughs] what else is going on in my world? We had an interesting thing happen last week. So we had an outage on the platform last week. And then we had an incident review today, so a formal sort of post-mortem incident review. There are a couple of different names that folks have given to these. But this is a practice that we want to build within our engineering culture is when stuff goes wrong, we want to make sure that we have meaningful conversations around to try to address the root causes. Ideally, blameless is a word that gets used often in this context. And I've heard folks sort of take either side of that. Like, it's critical that it's blameless so that it doesn't feel like it's an attack. But also, like, I don't know, if one person did something, we should say that. So finding that gentle middle ground of having honest, real conversations but in a context of safety. Like, we're all going to make mistakes. We're all going to ship bugs; let's be clear about that. And so it's okay to sort of...anyway, that's about the process. We had an outage. The specific outage was that we have introduced a new process. This is a Sidekiq process to work off a specific queue. So we wanted that to have discrete treatment. That had been running, and then it stopped running; we still don't know why. So we never got to the root-root cause. Well, we know what the mechanism was, which was the dyno count for that process was at zero. And so, eventually, we found a bunch of jobs backed up in the Sidekiq admin. We're like, that's weird. And then, we went over to Heroku's configuration dashboard. And we saw, huh, that's weird. There are zero dynos processing this. That wasn't true yesterday. But unfortunately, Heroku doesn't log or have an audit trail around changes to those process counts. It's just not available. So that's unfortunate. And then the actual question of like, how did this happen? It probably had to be someone on the team. So there is like, someone did a thing. But that is almost immaterial because, again, people are going to do things, bugs will get shipped, et cetera. So the conversation very quickly turned to observability and understanding. I think we've done a pretty good job of instrumenting error reporting and being quite responsive to that, making sure the signal-to-noise ratio is very actionable. So if we see a bug or a Sentry alert come through, we're able to triage that pretty quickly, act on it where it is a real bug, understand where it's a bit of noise in the system, that sort of thing. But in this case, there were no errors. There was no Sentry. There was nothing; there was the absence of something. And so it was this really interesting case of that's where observability, I think, can really come in and help. So the idea of what can we do here? Well, we can monitor the count of jobs backed up in Sidekiq queue. That's one option. We could do some threshold alerting around the throughput of processed events coming from this other backend. There are a bunch of different ways, but it basically pushed us in the direction of doubling down and reinforcing the foundation of our observability within the platform. So we're just kicking that mini-project off now, but it is something we're like, yeah, we feel like we could add some here. In particular, we recently added Datadog to the stack. So we now have Datadog to aggregate our logs and ideally do some metric analysis, those sort of things, build some dashboards, et cetera. I haven't explored Datadog much thus far. But my sense is they've got the whiz-bang things that we need here. But yeah, it was an interesting outage. That wasn't fun. The incident conversation was actually a good conversation as a team. And then the outcome of like, how do we double down on observability? I'm actually quite excited for. STEPH: This is a fun moment for me because I have either joined teams that didn't have Datadog or have any of that sort of observability built into their system or that sort of dashboard that people go to. Or I've joined teams, and they already have it, and then nobody or people rarely look at it. And so I'm always intrigued between like what's that catalyst that then sparked a team to then go ahead and add this? And so I'm excited to hear you're in that moment of like, we need more observability. How do we go about this? And as soon as you said Datadog, I was like, yeah, that sounds nice because then it sounds like a place that you can check on to make sure that everything is still running. But then there's still also that manual process where I'm presuming unless there's something else you have in mind. There's still that manual process of someone has to check the dashboard; someone then has to understand if there's no count, no squiggly lines, that's a bad thing and to raise a concern. So I'm intrigued with my own initial reaction of, like, yeah, that sounds great. But now I'm also thinking about it still adds a lot of...the responsibility is still on a human to think of this thing and to go check it. Versus if there's something that gets sent to someone to alert you and say like, "Hey, this queue hasn't been processed in 48 hours. There may be a concern that actually feels nicer." It feels safer. CHRIS: Oh yeah, definitely. I think observability is this category of tools and workflows and whatnot. But I think what you're describing of proactive alerting that's the ideal. And so it would be wonderful if I never had to look at any of these tools ever. And I just knew if I got, let's say, it's PagerDuty connected up whatever, and I got a push notification from PagerDuty saying, "Hey, go look at this thing." That's all I ever need to think about. It's like, well, I haven't gotten a PagerDuty in a while, so everything must be fine, and having a deep trust in that. Similar to like, if we have a great test suite and it's green, I feel confident deploying the sort of absence of an alert being the thing that I can trust. But right now, we're early enough in this journey that I think what we need to do is stand up a bunch of these different graphs and charts and metric analysis and aggregations and whatnot, and then start to squint at it for a while and be like, which of these would I be really concerned if it started to wibble? And then you can figure the alerting around said wibble rate. And that's the dream. That's where we want to get to, but I think we've got to crawl, walk, run on this. So it'll be an adventure. This is very much the like; we're starting a thing. I'll tell you about it more when we've done it. But what you're describing is exactly what we want to get to. STEPH: I love wibble rate. That's my new measurement I'm going to start using for everything. It's funny, as you're bringing this up, it's making me think about the past week that Joël Quenneville and I have had with our client work. Because a somewhat similar situation came up in regards where something happened, and something was broken. And it seemed it was hard to define exactly what moment caused that to break and what was going on. But it had a big impact on the team because it essentially meant none of the bills were going through. And so that's a big situation when you got 100-plus people that are pushing up code and expecting some of the build processes to run. But it was one of those that the more we dug into it, the more it seemed very rare that it would happen. So, in this case, as a sort of a juxtaposition to your scenario, we actually took the opposite approach of where we're like; this is rare. But we did load up a lot of contexts. Actually, I was thinking back to the advice that you gave me in a previous episode where I was talking about at what point do you dig in versus try to stay at surface level? And this was one of those, like, we've spent a couple of days on getting context for this and understanding. So it felt really important and worthwhile to then invest a little bit more time to then document it. But then we still went with the simplest approach of like, this is weird. It shouldn't happen again. We think we understand it but then let's add a little bit of documentation or wiki page around like, hey, if you do run into this, here are some steps that will fix everything. And then, if you need to use this, let somebody know because this is so odd it shouldn't happen. So we took that approach in this case where we didn't increase the observability. It was more like we provided a fire extinguisher very close to the location in case it happens. And so that way, it's there should the need arise, but we're hoping it just never gets used. We're also in the process of changing how a lot of that logic works. So we didn't really want to optimize for observability into a system that is actively being changed because it should look very different in upcoming months. But overall, I love the conversations that you bring about observability, and I'm excited to hear about what wibble rates you decide to add to your Datadog dashboard. CHRIS: There's a delicate art and science to the selection of the wibble rates. So I will certainly report back as we get into that work. But with that, shall we wrap up? STEPH: Let's wrap up. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Steph has a baby update and thoughts on movies, plus a question for Chris related to migrating Test Unit tests to RSpec. Chris watched a video from Google I/O where Chrome devs talked about a new feature called Page Transitions. He's also been working with a tool called Customer.io, an omnichannel communication whiz-bang adventure! Page transitions Overview (https://youtu.be/JCJUPJ_zDQ4) Using yield_self for composable ActiveRecord relations (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/using-yieldself-for-composable-activerecord-relations) A Case for Query Objects in Rails (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/a-case-for-query-objects-in-rails) Customer.io (https://customer.io/) Turning the database inside-out with Apache Samza | Confluent (https://www.confluent.io/blog/turning-the-database-inside-out-with-apache-samza/) Datomic (https://www.datomic.com/) About CRDTs • Conflict-free Replicated Data Types (https://crdt.tech/) Apache Kafka (https://kafka.apache.org/) Resilient Management | A book for new managers in tech (https://resilient-management.com/) Mixpanel: Product Analytics for Mobile, Web, & More (https://mixpanel.com/) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: CHRIS: Golden roads are golden. Okay, everybody's got golden roads. You have golden roads, yes? That is what we're -- STEPH: Oh, I have golden roads, yes. [laughter] CHRIS: You might should inform that you've got golden roads, yeah. STEPH: Yeah, I don't know if I say might should as much but might could. I have been called out for that one a lot; I might could do that. CHRIS: [laughs] STEPH: That one just feels so natural to me than normal. Anytime someone calls it out, I'm like, yeah, what about it? [laughter] CHRIS: Do you want to fight? STEPH: Yeah, are we going to fight? CHRIS: I might could fight you. STEPH: I might could. I might should. [laughter] CHRIS: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, what's new in your world? STEPH: Hey, Chris. I have a couple of fun updates. I have a baby Viccari update, so little baby weighs about two pounds now, two pounds. I'm 25 weeks along. So not that I actually know the exact weight, I'm using all those apps that estimate based on how far along you are, so around two pounds, which is novel. Oh, and then the other thing I'm excited to tell you about...I'm not sure how I should feel that I just got more excited about this other thing. I'm very excited about baby Viccari. But the other thing is there's a new Jurassic Park movie coming out, and I'm very excited. I think it's June 10th is when it comes out. And given how much we have sung that theme song to each other and make references to what a clever girl, I needed to share that with you. Maybe you already know, maybe you're already in the loop, but if you don't, it's coming. CHRIS: Yeah, the internet likes to yell things like that. Have you watched all of the most recent ones? There are like two, and I think this will be the third in the revisiting or whatever, the Jurassic World version or something like that. But have you watched the others? STEPH: I haven't seen all of them. So I've, of course, seen the first one. I saw the one that Chris Pratt was in, and now he's in the latest one. But I think I've missed...maybe there's like two in the middle there. I have not watched those. CHRIS: There are three in the original trilogy, and then there are three now in the new trilogy, which now it's ending, and they got everybody. STEPH: Oh, I'm behind. CHRIS: They got people from the first one, and they got the people from the second trilogy. They just got everybody, and that's exciting. You know, it's that thing where they tap into nostalgia, and they take advantage of us via it. But I'm fine. I'm here for it. STEPH: I'm here for it, especially for Jurassic Park. But then there's also a new Top Gun movie coming out, which, I'll be honest, I'm totally going to watch. But I really didn't remember the first one. I don't know that I've really ever watched the first Top Gun. So Tim, my partner, and I watched that recently, and it's such a bad movie. I'm going to say it; [laughs] it's a bad movie. CHRIS: I mean, I don't want to disagree, but the volleyball scene, come on, come on, the volleyball scene. [laughter] STEPH: I mean, I totally had a good time watching the movie. But the one part that I finally kept complaining about is because every time they showed the lead female character, I can't think of her character name or the actress's name, but they kept playing that song, Take My Breath Away. And I was like, can we just get past the song? [laughs] Because if you go back and watch that movie, I swear they play it like six different times. It was a lot. It was too much. So I moved it into bad movie category but bad movie totally worth watching, whatever category that is. CHRIS: Now I kind of want to revisit it. I feel like the drinking game writes itself. But at a minimum, anytime Take My Breath Away plays, yeah. Well, all right, good to know. [laughs] STEPH: Well, if you do that, let me know how many shots or beers you drink because I think it will be a fair amount. I think it will be more than five. CHRIS: Yeah, it involves a delicate calibration to get that right. I don't think it's the sort of thing you just freehand. It writes itself but also, you want someone who's tried it before you so that you're not like, oh no, it's every time they show a jet. That was too many. You can't drink that much while watching this movie. STEPH: Yeah, that would be death by Top Gun. CHRIS: But not the normal way, the different, indirect death by Top Gun. STEPH: I don't know what the normal way is. [laughs] CHRIS: Like getting shot down by a Top Gun pilot. [laughter] STEPH: Yeah, that makes sense. [laughs] CHRIS: You know, the dogfighting in the plane. STEPH: The actual, yeah, going to war away. Just sitting on your couch and you drink too much poison away, yeah, that one. All right, that got weird. Moving on, [laughs] there's a new Jurassic Park movie. We're going to land on that note. And in the more technical world, I've got a couple of things on my mind. One of them is I have a question for you. I'm very excited to run this by you because I could use a friend in helping me decide what to do. So I am still on that journey where I am migrating Test::Unit test over to RSpec. And as I'm going through, it's going pretty well, but it's a little complicated because some of the Test::Unit tests have different setup than, say, the RSpec do. They might run different scripts beforehand where they're loading data. That's perhaps a different topic, but that's happening. And so that has changed a few things. But then overall, I've just been really just porting everything over, like, hey, if it exists in the Test::Unit, let's just bring it to RSpec, and then I'm going to change these asserts to expects and really not make any changes from there. But as I'm doing that, I'm seeing areas that I want to improve and things that I want to clear up, even if it's just extracting a variable name. Or, as I'm moving some of these over in Test::Unit, it's not clear to me exactly what the test is about. Like, it looks more like a method name in the way that the test is being described, but the actual behavior isn't clear to me as if I were writing this in RSpec, I think it would have more of a clear description. Maybe that's not specific to the actual testing framework. That might just be how these tests are set up. But I'm at that point where I'm questioning should I keep going in terms of where I am just copying everything over from Test::Unit and then moving it over to RSpec? Because ultimately, that is the goal, to migrate over. Or should I also include some time to then go back and clean up and try to add some clarity, maybe extract some variable names, see if I can reduce some lets, maybe even reduce some of the test helpers that I'm bringing over? How much cleanup should be involved, zero, lots? I don't know. I don't know what that...[laughs] I'm sure there's a middle ground in there somewhere. But I'm having trouble discerning for myself what's the right amount because this feels like one of those areas where if I don't do any cleanup, I'm not coming back to it, like, that's just the truth. So it's either now, or I have no idea when and maybe never. CHRIS: I'll be honest, the first thing that came to mind in this most recent time that you mentioned this is, did we consider just deleting these tests entirely? Is that on...like, there are very few of them, right? Like, are they even providing enough value? So that was question one, which let me pause to see what your thoughts there were. [chuckles] STEPH: I don't know if we specifically talked about that on the mic, but yes, that has been considered. And the team that owns those tests has said, "No, please don't delete them. We do get value from them." So we can port them over to RSpec, but we don't have time to port them over to RSpec. So we just need to keep letting them go on. But yet, not porting them conflicts with my goal of then trying to speed up CI. And so it'd be nice to collapse these Test::Unit tests over to RSpec because then that would bring our CI build down by several meaningful minutes. And also, it would reduce some of the complexity in the CI setup. CHRIS: Gotcha. Okay, so now, having set that aside, I always ask the first question of like, can you just put Derek Prior's phone number on the webpage and call it an app? Is that the MVP of this app? No? Okay, all right, we have to build more. But yeah, I think to answer it and in a general way of trying to answer a broader set of questions here... I think this falls into a category of like if you find yourself having to move around some code, if that code is just comfortably running and the main thing you need to do is just to get it ported over to RSpec, I would probably do as little other work as possible. With the one consideration that if you find yourself needing to deeply load up the context of these tests like actually understand them in order to do the porting, then I would probably take advantage of that context because it's hard to get your head into a given piece of code, test or otherwise. And so if you're in there and you're like, well, now that I'm here, I can definitely see that we could rearrange some stuff and just definitively make it better, if you get to that place, I would consider it. But if this ends up being mostly a pretty rote transformation like you said, asserts become expects, and lets get switched around, you know, that sort of stuff, if it's a very mechanical process of getting done, I would probably say very minimal. But again, if there is that, like, you know what? I had to understand the test in order to port them anyway, so while I'm here, let me take advantage of that, that's probably the thing that I would consider. But if not that, then I would say even though it's messy and whatnot and your inclination would be to clean it, I would say leave it roughly as is. That's my guess or how I would approach it. STEPH: Yeah, I love that. I love how you pointed out, like, did you build up the context? Because you're right, in a lot of these test cases, I'm not, or I'm trying really hard to not build up context. I'm trying very hard to just move them over and, if I have to, mainly to find test descriptions. That's the main area I'm struggling to...how can I more explicitly state what this test does so the next person reading this will have more comprehension than I do? But otherwise, I'm trying hard to not have any real context around it. And that's such a good point because that's often...when someone else is in the middle of something, and they're deciding whether to include that cleanup or refactor or improvement, one of my suggestions is like, hey, we've got the context now. Let's go with it. But if you've built up very little context, then that's not a really good catalyst or reason to then dig in deeper and apply that cleanup. That's super helpful. Thank you. That will help reinforce what I'm going to do, which is exactly let's migrate RSpec and not worry about cleanup, which feels terrible; I'm just going to say that into the world. But it also feels like the right thing to do. CHRIS: Well, I'm happy to have helped. And I share the like, and it feels terrible. I want to do the right thing, but sometimes you got to pick a battle sort of thing. STEPH: Cool. Well, that's a huge help to me. What's going on in your world? CHRIS: What's going on in my world? I watched a great video the other day from the Google I/O. I think it's an event; I'm not actually sure, conference or something like that. But it was some Google Chrome developers talking about a new feature that's coming to the platform called Page Transitions. And I've kept an eye on this for a while, but it seems like it's more real. Like, I think they put out an RFC or an initial sort of set of ideas a while back. And the web community was like, "Oh, that's not going to work out so well." So they went back to the drawing board, revisited. I've actually implemented in Chrome Canary a version of the API. And then, in the video that I watched, which we'll include a show notes link to, they demoed the functionality of the Page Transitions API and showed what you can do. And it's super cool. It allows for the sort of animations that you see in a lot of native mobile apps where you're looking at a ListView, you click on one of the items, and it grows to fill the whole screen. And now you're on the detail screen for that item that you were looking at. But there was this very continuous animated transition that allows you to keep context in your head and all of those sorts of nice things. And this just really helps to bridge that gap between, like, the web often lags behind the native mobile platforms in terms of the experiences that we can build. So it was really interesting to see what they've been able to pull off. The demo is a pretty short video, but it shows a couple of different variations of what you can build with it. And I was like, yeah, these look like cool native app transitions, really nifty. One thing that's very interesting is the actual implementation of this. So it's like you have one version of the page, and then you transition to a new version of the page, and in doing so, you want to animate between them. And the way that they do it is they have the first version of the page. They take a screenshot of it like the browser engine takes a screenshot of it. And then they put that picture on top of the actual browser page. Then they do the same thing with the next version of the page that they're going to transition to. And then they crossfade, like, change the opacity and size and whatnot between the two different images, and then you're there. And in the back of my mind, I'm like, I'm sorry, what now? You did which? I'm like, is this the genius solution that actually makes this work and is performant? And I wonder if there are trade-offs. Like, do you lose interactivity between those because you've got some images that are just on the screen? And what is that like? But as they were going through it, I was just like, wait, I'm sorry, you did what? This is either the best idea I've ever heard, or I'm not so sure about this. STEPH: That's fascinating. You had me with the first part in terms of they take a screenshot of the page that you're leaving. I'm like, yeah, that's a great idea. And then talking about taking a picture of the other page because then you have to load it but not show it to the user that it's loaded. And then take a picture of it, and then show them the picture of the loaded page. But then actually, like you said, then crossfade and then bring in the real functionality. I am...what am I? [laughter] CHRIS: What am I actually? STEPH: [laughs] What am I? I'm shocked. I'm surprised that that is so performant. Because yeah, I also wouldn't have thought of that, or I would have immediately have thought like, there's no way that's going to be performant enough. But that's fascinating. CHRIS: For me, performance seems more manageable, but it's the like, what are you trading off for that? Because that sounds like a hack. That sounds like the sort of thing I would recommend if we need to get an MVP out next week. And I'm like, what if we just tried this? Listen, it's got some trade-offs. So I'm really interested to see are those trade-offs present? Because it's the browser engine. It's, you know, the low-level platform that's actually managing this. And there are some nice hooks that allow you to control it. And at a CSS level, you can manage it and use keyframe animations to control the transition more directly. There's a JavaScript API to instrument the sequencing of things. And so it's giving you the right primitives and the right hooks. And the fact that the implementation happens to use pictures or screenshots, to use a slightly different word, it's like, okey dokey, that's what we're doing. Sounds fun. So I'm super interested because the functionality is deeply, deeply interesting to me. Svelte actually has a version of this, the crossfade utility, but you have to still really think about how do you sequence between the two pages and how do you do the connective tissue there? And then Svelte will manage it for you if you do all the right stuff. But the wiring up is somewhat complicated. So having this in the browser engine is really interesting to me. But yeah, pictures. STEPH: This is one of those ideas where I can't decide if this was someone who is very new to the team and new to the idea and was like, "Have we considered screenshots? Have we considered pictures?" Or if this is like the uber senior person on the team that was like, "Yeah, this will totally work with screenshots." I can't decide where in that range this idea falls, which I think makes me love it even more. Because it's very straightforward of like, hey, what if we just tried this? And it's working, so cool, cool, cool. CHRIS: There's a fantastic meme that's been making the rounds where it's a bell curve, and it's like, early in your career, middle of your career, late in your career. And so early in your career, you're like, everything in one file, all lines of code that's just where they go. And then in the middle of your career, you're like, no, no, no, we need different concerns, and files, and organizational structures. And then end of your career...and this was coming up in reference to the TypeScript team seems to have just thrown everything into one file. And it's the thing that they've migrated to over time. And so they have this many, many line file that is basically the TypeScript engine all in one file. And so it was a joke of like, they definitely know what they're doing with programming. They're not just starting last week sort of thing. And so it's this funny arc that certain things can go through. So I think that's an excellent summary there [laughs] of like, I think it was folks who have thought about this really hard. But I kind of hope it was someone who was just like, "I'm new here. But have we thought about pictures? What about pictures?" I also am a little worried that I just deeply misunderstood [laughs] the representation but glossed over it in the video, and I'm like, that sounds interesting. So hopefully, I'm not just wildly off base here. [laughs] But nonetheless, the functionality looks very interesting. STEPH: That would be a hilarious tweet. You know, I've been waiting for that moment where I've said something that I understood into the mic and someone on Twitter just being like, well, good try, but... [laughs] CHRIS: We had a couple of minutes where we tried to figure out what the opposite of ranting was, and we came up with pranting and made up a word instead of going with praising or raving. No, that's what it is, raving. [laughs] STEPH: No, raving. I will never forget now, raving. [laughs] CHRIS: So, I mean, we've done this before. STEPH: That's true. Although they were nice, I don't think they tweeted. I think they sent in an email. They were like, "Hey, friends." [laughter] CHRIS: Actually, we got a handful of emails on that. [laughter] STEPH: Did you know the English language? CHRIS: Thank you, kind Bikeshed audience, for not shaming us in public. I mean, feel free if you feel like it. [laughs] But one other thing that came up in this video, though, is the speaker was describing single-page apps are very common, and you want to have animated transitions and this and that. And I was like, single-page app, okay, fine. I don't like the terminology but whatever. I would like us to call it the client-side app or client-side routing or something else. But the fact that it's a single page is just a technical consideration that no user would call it that. Users are like; I go to the web app. I like that it has URLs. Those seem different to me. Anyway, this is my hill. I'm going to die on it. But then the speaker in the video, in contrast to single-page app referenced multi-page app, and I was like, oh, come on, come on. I get it. Like, yes, there are just balls of JavaScript that you can download on the internet and have a dynamic graphics editor. But I think almost all good things on the web should have URLs, and that's what I would call the multiple pages. But again, that's just me griping about some stuff. And to name it, I don't think I'm just griping for griping sake. Like, again, I like to think about things from the user perspective, and the URL being so important. And having worked with plenty of apps that are implemented in JavaScript and don't take the URL or the idea that we can have different routable resources seriously and everything is just one URL, that's a failure mode in my mind. We missed an opportunity here. So I think I'm saying a useful thing here and not just complaining on the internet. But with that, I will stop complaining on the internet and send it back over to you. What else is new in your world, Steph? STEPH: I do remember the first time that you griped about it, and you were griping about URLs. And there was a part of me that was like, what is he talking about? [laughter] And then over time, I was like, oh, I get it now as I started actually working more in that world. But it took me a little bit to really appreciate that gripe and where you're coming from. And I agree; I think you're coming from a reasonable place, not that I'm biased at all as your co-host, but you know. CHRIS: I really like the honest summary that you're giving of, like, honestly, the first time you said this, I let you go for a while, but I did not know what you were talking about. [laughs] And I was like, okay, good data point. I'm going to store that one away and think about it a bunch. But that's fine. I'm glad you're now hanging out with me still. [laughter] STEPH: Don't do that. Don't think about it a bunch. [laughs] Let's see, oh, something else that's going on in my world. I had a really fun pairing session with another thoughtboter where we were digging into query objects and essentially extracting some logic out of an ActiveRecord model and then giving that behavior its own space and elevated namespace in a query object. And one of the questions or one of the things that came up that we needed to incorporate was optional filters. So say if you are searching for a pizza place that's nearby and you provide a city, but you don't provide what's the optional zip code, then we want to make sure that we don't apply the zip code in the where clause because then you would return all the pizza places that have a nil zip code, and that's just not what you want. So we need to respect the fact that not all the filters need to be applied. And there are a couple of ways to go about it. And it was a fun journey to see the different ways that we could structure it. So one of the really good starting points is captured in a blog post by Derek Prior, which we'll include a link to in the show notes, and it's using yield_self for composable ActiveRecord relations. But essentially, it starts out with an example where it shows that you're assigning a value to then the result of an if statement. So it's like, hey, if the zip code is present, then let's filter by zip code; if not, then just give us back the original relation. And then you can just keep building on it from there. And then there's a really nice implementation that Derek built on that then uses yield_self to pass the relation through, which then provides a really nice readability for as you are then stepping through each filter and which one should and shouldn't be applied. And now there's another blog post, and this one's written by Thiago Silva, A Case for Query Objects in Rails. And this one highlighted an approach that I haven't used before. And I initially had some mixed feelings about it. But this approach uses the extending method, which is a method that's on ActiveRecord query methods. And it's used to extend the scope with additional methods. You can either do this by providing the name of a module or by providing a block. It's only going to apply to that instance or to that specific scope when you're using it. So it's not going to be like you're running an include or something like that where all instances are going to now have access to these methods. So by using that method, extending, then you can create a module that says, "Hey, I want to create this by zip code filter that will then check if we have a zip code, let's apply it, if not, return the relation. And it also creates a really pretty chaining experience of like, here's my original class name. Let's extend with these specific scopes, and then we can say by zip code, by pizza topping, whatever else it is that we're looking to filter by. And I was initially...I saw the extending, and it made me nervous because I was like, oh, what all does this apply to? And is it going to impact anything outside of this class? But the more I've looked at it, the more I really like it. So I think you've seen this blog post too. And I'm curious, what are your thoughts about this? CHRIS: I did see this blog post come through. I follow that thoughtbot blog real close because it turns out some of the best writing on the internet is on there. But I saw this...also, as an aside, I like that we've got two Derek Prior references in one episode. Let's see if we can go for three before the end. But one thing that did stand out to me in it is I have historically avoided scopes using scope like ActiveRecord macro thing. It's a class method, but like, it's magic. It does magic. And a while ago, class methods and scopes became roughly equivalent, not exactly equivalent, but close enough. And for me, I want to use methods because I know stuff about methods. I know about default arguments. And I know about all of these different subtleties because they're just methods at the end of the day, whereas scopes are special; they have certain behavior. And I've never really known of the behavior beyond the fact that they get implemented in a different way. And so I was never really sold on them. And they're different enough from methods, and I know methods well. So I'm like, let's use the normal stuff where we can. The one thing that's really interesting, though, is the returning nil that was mentioned in this blog post. If you return nil in a scope, it will handle that for you. Whereas all of my query objects have a like, well, if this thing applies, then scope dot or relation dot where blah, blah, blah, else return relation unchanged. And the fact that that natively exists within scope is interesting enough to make me reconsider my stance on scopes versus class methods. I think I'm still doing class method. But it is an interesting consideration that I was unaware of before. STEPH: Yeah, it's an interesting point. I hadn't really considered as much whether I'm defining a class-level method versus a scope in this particular case. And I also didn't realize that scopes handle that nil case for you. That was one of the other things that I learned by reading through this blog post. I was like, oh, that is a nicety. Like, that is something that I get for free. So I agree. I think this is one of those things that I like enough that I'd really like to try it out more and then see how it goes and start to incorporate it into my process. Because this feels like one of those common areas of where I get to it, and I'm like, how do I do this again? And yield_self was just complicated enough in terms of then using the fancy method method to then be able to call the method that I want that I was like, I don't remember how to do this. I had to look it up each time. But including this module with extending and then being able to use scopes that way feels like something that would be intuitive for me that then I could just pick up and run with each time. CHRIS: If it helps, you can use then instead of yield_self because we did upgrade our Ruby a while back to have that change. But I don't think that actually solves the thing that you're describing. I'd have liked the ampersand method and then simple method name magic incantation that is part of the thing that Derek wrote up. I do use it when I write query objects, but I have to think about it or look it up each time and be like, how do I do that? All right, that's how I do that. STEPH: Yeah, that's one of the things that I really appreciate is how often folks will go back and update blog posts, or they will add an addition to them to say, "Hey, there's something new that came out that then is still relevant to this topic." So then you can read through it and see the latest and the greatest. It's a really nice touch to a number of our blog posts. But yeah, that's what was on my mind regarding query objects. What else is going on in your world? CHRIS: I have this growing feeling that I don't quite know what to do with. I think I've talked about it across some of our conversations in the world of observability. But broadly, I'm starting to like...I feel like my brain has shifted, and I now see the world slightly differently, and I can't go back. But I also don't know how to stick the landing and complete this transition in my brain. So it's basically everything's an event stream; this feels true. That's life. The arrow of time goes in one direction as far as I understand it. And I'm now starting to see it manifest in the code that we're writing. Like, we have code to log things, and we have places where we want to log more intentionally. Then occasionally, we send stuff off to Sentry. And Sentry tells us when there are errors, that's great. But in a lot of places, we have both. Like, we will warn about something happening, and we'll send that to the logs because we want to have that in the logs, which is basically the whole history of what's happened. But we also have it in Sentry, but Sentry's version is just this expanded version that has a bunch more data about the user, and things, and the browser that they were in. But they're two variations on the same event. And then similarly, analytics is this, like, third leg of well, this thing happened, and we want to know about it in the context. And what's been really interesting is we're working with a tool called Customer.io, which is an omnichannel communication whiz-bang adventure. For us, it does email, SMS, and push notifications. And it's integrated into our segment pipeline, so events flow in, events and users essentially. So we have those two different primitives within it. And then within it, we can say like, when a user does X, then send them an email with this copy. As an aside, Customer.io is a fantastic platform. I'm super-duper impressed. We went through a search for a tool like it, and we ended up on a lot of sales demos with folks that were like, hey, so yeah, starting point is $25,000 per year. And, you know, we can talk about it, but it's only going to go up from there when we talk about it, just to be clear. And it's a year minimum contract, and you're going to love it. And we're like, you do have impressive platforms, but okay, that's a bunch. And then, we found Customer.io, and it's month-by-month pricing. And it had a surprisingly complete feature set. So overall, I've been super impressed with Customer.io and everything that they've afforded. But now that I'm seeing it, I kind of want to move everything into that world where like, Customer.io allows non-engineer team members to interact with that event stream and then make things happen. And that's what we're doing all the time. But I'm at that point where I think I see the thing that I want, but I have no idea how to get there. And it might not even be tractable either. There's the wonderful Turning the Database Inside Out talk, which describes how everything is an event stream. And what if we actually were to structure things that way and do materialized views on top of it? And the actual UI that you're looking at is a materialized view on top of the database, which is a materialized view on top of that event stream. So I'm mostly in this, like, I want to figure this out. I want to start to unify all this stuff. And analytics pipes to one tool that gets a version of this event stream, and our logs are just another, and our error system is another variation on it. But they're all sort of sampling from that one event stream. But I have no idea how to do that. And then when you have a database, then you're like, well, that's also just a static representation of a point in time, which is the opposite of an event stream. So what do you do there? So there are folks out there that are doing good thinking on this. So I'm going to keep my ear to the ground and try and see what's everybody thinking on this front? But I can't shake the feeling that there's something here that I'm missing that I want to stitch together. STEPH: I'm intrigued on how to take this further because everything you're saying resonates in terms of having these event streams that you're working with. But yet, I can't mentally replace that with the existing model that I have in my mind of where there are still certain ideas of records or things that exist in the world. And I want to encapsulate the data and store that in the database. And maybe I look it up based on when it happens; maybe I don't. Maybe I'm looking it up by something completely different. So yeah, I'm also intrigued by your thoughts, but I'm also not sure where to take it. Who are some of the folks that are doing some of the thinking in this area that you're interested in, or where might you look next? CHRIS: There's the Kafka world of we have an event log, and then we're processing on top of that, and we're building stream processing engines as the core. They seem to be closest to the Turning the Database Inside Out talk that I was thinking or that I mentioned earlier. There's also the idea of CRDTs, which are Conflict-free Replicated Data Types, which are really interesting. I see them used particularly in real-time application. So it's this other tool, but they are basically event logs. And then you can communicate them well and have two different people working on something collaboratively. And these event logs then have a natural way to come together and produce a common version of the document on either end. That's at least my loose understanding of it, but it seems like a variation on this theme. So I've been looking at that a little bit. But again, I can't see how to map that to like, but I know how to make a Rails app with a Postgres database. And I think I'm reasonably capable at it, or at least I've been able to produce things that are useful to humans using it. And so it feels like there is this pretty large gap. Because what makes sense in my head is if you follow this all the way, it fundamentally re-architects everything. And so that's A, scary, and B; I have no idea how to get there, but I am intrigued. Like, I feel like there's something there. There's also Datomic is the other thing that comes to mind, which is a database engine in the Clojure world that stores the versions of things over time; that idea of the user is active. It's like, well, yeah, but when were they not? That's an event. That transition is an event that Postgres does not maintain at this point. And so, all I know is that the user is active. Maybe I store a timestamp because I'm thinking proactively about this. But Datomic is like no, no, fundamentally, as a primitive in this database; that's how we organize and think about stuff. And I know I've talked about Datomic on here before. So I've circled around these ideas before. And I'm pretty sure I'm just going to spend a couple of minutes circling and then stop because I have no idea how to connect the dots. [laughs] But I want to figure this out. STEPH: I have not worked with Kafka. But one of the main benefits I understand with Kafka is that by storing everything as a stream, you're never going to lose like a message. So if you are sending a message to another system and then that message gets lost in transit, you don't actually know if it got acknowledged or what happened with it, and replaying is really hard. Where do you pick up again? While using something like Kafka, you know exactly what you sent last, and then you're not going to have that uncertainty as to what messages went through and which ones didn't. And then the ability to replay is so important. I'm curious, as you continue to explore this, do you have a particular pain point in mind that you'd like to see improve? Or is it more just like, this seems like a really cool, novel idea; how can I incorporate more of this into my world? CHRIS: I think it's the latter. But I think the thing that I keep feeling is we keep going back and re-instrumenting versions of this. We're adding more logging or more analytics events over the wire or other things. But then, as I send these analytics events over the wire, we have Mixpanel downstream as an analytics visualization and workflow tool or Customer.io. At this point, those applications, I think, have a richer understanding of our users than our core Rails app. And something about that feels wrong to me. We're also streaming everything that goes through segment to S3 because I had a realization of this a while back. I'm like, that event stream is very interesting. I don't want to lose it. I'm going to put it somewhere that I get to keep it. So even if we move off of either Mixpanel or Customer.io or any of those other platforms, we still have our data. That's our data, and we're going to hold on to it. But interestingly, Customer.io, when it sends a message, will push an event back into segments. So it's like doubly connected to segment, which is managing this sort of event bus of data. And so Mixpanel then gets an even richer set there, and the Rails app is like, I'm cool. I'm still hanging out, and I'm doing stuff; it's fine. But the fact that the Rails app is fundamentally less aware of the things that have happened is really interesting to me. And I am not running into issues with it, but I do feel odd about it. STEPH: That touched on a theme that is interesting to me, the idea that I hadn't really considered it in those terms. But yeah, our application provides the tool in which people can interact with. But then we outsource the behavior analysis of our users and understanding what that flow is and what they're going through. I hadn't really thought about those concrete terms and where someone else owns the behavior of our users, but yet we own all the interaction points. And then we really need both to then make decisions about features and things that we're building next. But that also feels like building a whole new product, that behavior analysis portion of it, so it's interesting. My consulting brain is going wild at the moment between like, yeah, it would be great to own that. But that the other time if there's this other service that has already built that product and they're doing it super well, then let's keep letting them manage that portion of our business until we really need to bring it in-house. Because then we need to incorporate it more into our application itself so then we can surface things to the user. That's the part where then I get really interested, or that's the pain point that I could see is if we wanted more of that behavior analysis, that then we want to surface that in the app, then always having to go to a third-party would start to feel tedious or could feel more brittle. CHRIS: Yeah, I'm definitely 100% on not rebuilding Mixpanel in our app and being okay with the fact that we're sending that. Again, the thing that I did to make myself feel better about this is stream the data to S3 so that I have a version of it. And if we want to rebuild the data warehouse down the road to build some sort of machine learning data pipeline thing, we've got some raw data to work with. But I'm noticing lots of places where we're transforming a side effect, a behavior that we have in the system to dispatching an event. And so right now, we have a bunch of stuff that we pipe over to Slack to inform our admin team, hey, this thing happened. You should probably intervene. But I'm looking at that, and we're doing it directly because we can control the message in Slack a little bit better. But I had this thought in the back of my mind; it's like, could we just send that as an event, and then some downstream tool can configure messages and alerts into Slack? Because then the admin team could actually instrument this themselves. And they could be like; we are no longer interested in this event. Users seem fine on that front. But we do care about this new event. And all we need to do as the engineering team is properly instrument all of that event stream tapping. Every event just needs to get piped over. And then lots of powerful tools downstream from that that can allow different consumers of that data to do things, and broadly, that dispatch events, consume them on the other side, do fun stuff. That's the story. That's the dream. But I don't know; I can't connect all the dots. It's probably going to take me a couple of weeks to connect all these dots, or maybe years, or maybe my entire career, something like that. But, I don't know, I'm going to keep trying. STEPH: This feels like a fun startup narrative, though, where you start by building the thing that people can interact with. As more people start to interact with it, how do we start giving more of our team the ability to then manage the product that then all of these users are interacting with? And then that's the part that you start optimizing for. So there are always different interesting bits when you talk about the different stages of Sagewell, and like, what's the thing you're optimizing for? And I'm sure it's still heavily users. But now there's also this addition of we are also optimizing for our team to now manage the product. CHRIS: Yes, you're 100%. You're spot on there. We have definitely joked internally about spinning out a small company to build this analytics alerting tool [laughs] but obviously not going to do that because that's a distraction. And it is interesting, like, we want to build for the users the best thing that we can and where the admin team fits within that. To me, they're very much customers of engineering. Our job is to build the thing for the users but also, to be honest, we have to build a thing for the admins to support the users and exactly where that falls. Like, you and I have talked a handful of times about maybe the admin isn't as polished in design as other things. But it's definitely tested because that's a critical part of how this application works. Maybe not directly for a user but one step removed for a user, so it matters. Absolutely we're writing tests to cover that behavior. And so yeah, those trade-offs are always interesting to me and exploring that space. But 100%: our admin team are core customers of the work that we're doing in engineering. And we try and stay very close and very friendly with them. STEPH: Yeah, I really appreciate how you're framing that. And I very much agree and believe with you that our admin users are incredibly important. CHRIS: Well, thank you. Yeah, we're trying over here. But yeah, I think I can wrap up that segment of me rambling about ideas that are half-formed in my mind but hopefully are directionally important. Anyway, what else is up with you? STEPH: So, not that long ago, I asked you a question around how the heck to manage themes that I have going on. So we've talked about lots of fun productivity things around managing to-dos, and emails, and all that stuff. And my latest one is thinking about, like, I have a theme that I want to focus on, maybe it's this week, maybe it's for a couple of months. And how do I capture that and surface it to myself and see that I'm making progress on that? And I don't have an answer to that. But I do have a theme that I wanted to share. And the one that I'm currently focused on is building up management skills and team lead skills. That is something that I'm focused on at the moment and partially because I was inspired to read the book Resilient Management written by Lara Hogan. And so I think that is what has really set the idea. But as I picked up the book, I was like, this is a really great book, and I'd really like to share some of this. And then so that grew into like, well, let's just go ahead and make this a theme where I'm learning this, and I'm sharing this with everyone else. So along that note, I figured I would share that here. So we use Basecamp at thoughtbot. And so, I've been sharing some Basecamp posts around what I'm learning in each chapter. But to bring some of that knowledge here as well, some of the cool stuff that I have learned so far...and this is just still very early on in the book. There are a couple of different topics that Laura covers in the first chapter, and one of them is humans' core needs at work. And then there's also the concept of meeting your team, some really good questions that you can ask during your first one-on-one to get to know the person that then you're going to be managing. The part that really resonated with me and something that I would like to then coach myself to try is helping the team get to know you. So as a manager, not only are you going out of your way to really get to know that person, but how are you then helping them get to know you as well? Because then that's really going to help set that relationship in regards of they know what kind of things that you're optimizing for. Maybe you're optimizing for a deadline, or for business goals, or maybe it's for transparency, or maybe it would be helpful to communicate to someone that you're managing to say, "Hey, I'm trying some new management techniques. Let me know how this goes." [chuckles] So there's a healthier relationship of not only are you learning them, but they're also learning you. So some of the questions that Laura includes as examples as something that you can share with your team is what do you optimize for in your role? So is it that you're optimizing for specific financial goals or building up teammates? Or maybe it's collaboration, so you're really looking for opportunities for people to pair together. What do you want your teammates to lean on you for? I really liked that question. Like, what are some of the areas that bring you joy or something that you feel really skilled in that then you want people to come to you for? Because that's something that before I was a manager...but it's just as you are growing as a developer, that's such a great question of like, what do you want to be known for? What do you want to be that thing that when people think of, they're like, oh, you should go see Chris about this, or you should go see Steph about this? And two other good questions include what are your work styles and preferences? And what management skills are you currently working on learning or improving? So I really like this concept of how can I share more of myself? And the great thing about this book that I'm learning too is while it is geared towards people that are managers, I think it's so wonderful for people who are non-managers or aspiring managers to read this as well because then it can help you manage whoever's managing you. So then that way, you can have some upward management. So we had recent conversations around when you are new to a team and getting used to a manager, or maybe if you're a junior, you have to take a lot of self-advocacy into your role to make sure things are going well. And I think this book does a really good job for people that are looking to not only manage others but also manage themselves and manage upward. So that's some of the journeys from the first chapter. I'll keep you posted on the other chapters as I'm learning more. And yeah, if anybody hasn't read this book or if you're interested, I highly recommend it. I'll make sure to include a link in the show notes. CHRIS: That was just the first chapter? STEPH: Yeah, that was just the first chapter. CHRIS: My goodness. STEPH: And I shortened it drastically. [laughs] CHRIS: Okay. All right, off to the races. But I think the summary that you gave there, particularly these are true when you're managing folks but also to manage yourself and to manage up, like, this is relevant to everyone in some capacity in some shape or form. And so that feels very true. STEPH: I will include one more fun aspect from the book, and that's circling back to the humans' core needs at work. And she references Paloma Medina, a coach, and trainer who came up with this acronym. The acronym is BICEPS, and it stands for belonging, improvement, choice, equality, predictability, and significance. And then details how each of those are important to us in our work and how when one of those feels threatened, then that can lead to some problems at work or just even in our personal life. But the fun example that she gave was not when there's a huge restructuring of the organization and things like that are going on as being the most concerning in terms of how many of these needs are going to be threatened or become vulnerable. But changing where someone sits at work can actually hit all of these, and it can threaten each of these needs. And it made me think, oh, cool, plus-one for being remote because we can sit wherever we want. [laughs] But that was a really fun example of how someone's needs at work, I mean, just moving their desk, which resonates, too, because I've heard that from other people. Some of the friends that I have that work in more of a People Ops role talk about when they had to shift people around how that caused so much grief. And they were just shocked that it caused so much grief. And this explains why that can be such a big deal. So that was a fun example to read through. CHRIS: I'm now having flashbacks to times where I was like, oh, I love my spot in the office. I love the people I'm sitting with. And then there was that day, and I had to move. Yeah, no, those were days. This is true. STEPH: It triggered all the core BICEPS, all the things that you need to work. It threatened all of them. Or it could have improved them; who knows? CHRIS: There were definitely those as well, yeah. Although I think it's harder to know that it's going to be great on the way in, so it's mostly negative. I think it has that weird bias because you're like, this was a thing, I knew it. I at least understood it. And then you're in a new space, and you're like, I don't know, is this going to be terrible or great? I mean, hopefully, it's only great because you work with great people, and it's a great office. [laughs] But, like, the unknown, you're moving into the unknown, and so I think it has an inherent at least questioning bias to it. STEPH: Agreed. On that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeee!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Chris - We know there's a massive Cyber workforce challenge, what role do you think academia plays there and how can it improve to close the gap?Nikki - Speaking of the young professionals in cybersecurity, what do you think are some of the in-demand skillsets and career paths available for individuals interested in pursuing a career in cybersecurity?Chris - There's often a debate between academics and practitioners, why do you think that is, and do you think we're seeing that gap dissolve with new degree programs and more practitioner focused curriculum?  Nikki - On the subject of academia - do you feel like there is enough focus on research in cybersecurity fields? Do you think that research is getting to private and public partners or is there something we can be doing to strengthen those relationships?Chris - What do you think the future of Cybersecurity education looks like? What role does non-traditional education such as certifications, bootcamps, online courses and content etc. play in the hiring qualifications of the future?

Chris switched from Trello over to Linear for product management and talks about prioritizing backlogs. Steph shares and discusses a tweet from Curtis Einsmann that super resonated with the work she's doing right now: "In software engineering, rabbit holes are inevitable. You will research libraries and not use them. You'll write code just to delete it. This isn't a waste; sometimes, you need to go down a few wrong paths to get to the right one." This episode is brought to you by BuildPulse (https://buildpulse.io/bikeshed). Start your 14-day free trial of BuildPulse today. Linear (https://linear.app/) Curtis Einsmann Tweet (https://twitter.com/curtiseinsmann/status/1521451508943843329) Louie Bacaj Tweet (https://twitter.com/LBacaj/status/1478241322637033474?s=20) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: AD: Flaky tests take the joy out of programming. You push up some code, wait for the tests to run, and the build fails because of a test that has nothing to do with your change. So you click rebuild and you wait. Again. And you hope you're lucky enough to get a passing build this time. Flaky tests slow everyone down, break your flow and make things downright miserable. In a perfect world, tests would only break if there's a legitimate problem that would impact production. They'd fail immediately and consistently, not intermittently. But the world's not perfect, and flaky tests will happen, and you don't have time to fix them all today. So how do you know where to start? BuildPulse automatically detects and tracks your team's flaky tests. Better still, it pinpoints the ones that are disrupting your team the most. With this list of top offenders, you'll know exactly where to focus your effort for maximum impact on making your builds more stable. In fact, the team at Codecademy was able to identify their flakiest tests with BuildPulse in just a few days. By focusing on those tests first, they reduced their flaky builds by more than 68% in less than a month! And you can do the same because BuildPulse integrates with the tools you're already using. It supports all the major CI systems, including CircleCI, GitHub Actions, Jenkins, and others. And it analyzes test results for all popular test frameworks and programming languages, like RSpec, Jest, Go, pytest, PHPUnit, and more. So stop letting flaky tests slow you down. Start your 14-day free trial of BuildPulse today. To learn more, visit buildpulse.io/bikeshed. That's buildpulse.io/bikeshed. CHRIS: Good morning, and welcome to Tech Talk with Steph and Chris. Today at the top of the hour, it's tech traffic hits. STEPH: Ooh, tech traffic. [laughs] I like that statement. CHRIS: Yeah. The Git lanes are clogged up with...I don't know. I got nothing. STEPH: [laughs] Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, hey, Chris, what's new in your world? CHRIS: What's new in my world? Actually, I have a specific new thing that I can share, which is, as of the past week, I would say, switched from Trello over to Linear for product management. It's been great. It was a super straightforward transfer. They actually had an importer. We lost some of the comment threads on the Trello cards. But that was easy enough to like each Linear ticket has a link back to Trello. So it's easy enough to keep the continuity. But yeah, we're in a whole new world, a system actually built for maintaining a product backlog, and, man, it shows. Trello was a bunch of lists and cards and stuff that you could link between, which was cool. But Linear is just much more purpose-built and already very, very nice. And we're very happy with the switch. STEPH: I feel like you came in real casual with that news, but that is big news, that you did a switch. [laughter] CHRIS: How are you going to bury the lead like that? You switched project management...[laughter] I actually didn't think it was...I'm excited about it but low-key excited, which is weird because I do like productivity and task management software. So you would think I would be really excited about this. But I've also tried enough of them historically to know that that's never going to be the thing that actually makes or breaks your team's productivity. It can make things worse, but it can't make you great. That's the thing that I believe. And so it's a wonderful piece of software. I'm very excited about it but -- STEPH: Ooh, I like that. It can make you worse, but it doesn't make you great. That's so true, yeah, where it causes pain. Well, and it does make sense. You've been complaining a bit about the whole login with Trello and how that's been frustrating. But I haven't even heard of Linear. That's just...that's, I mean, you're just doing what you do where you bring that new-new. I haven't heard of Linear before. CHRIS: I try to live on the cutting edge. Actually, I deeply try to not live on the cutting edge at this point in my life. That early adopter wave, no, no, no, that's not for me anymore. But I've known a few folks who've moved to Linear. And everyone that I've spoken to who has moved to it has been like, "Yeah, it's been great." I've not heard anything negative. And I've heard or experienced negative things about every other product management tool out there. And so, it seemed like an easy thing. And it was a low-cost enough switch in terms of opportunity costs or the like, it took the effort of someone on our team moving those cards over and setting up the new system and training, but it was relatively straightforward. And yeah, we're super happy with it. And it feels different now. I feel like I can see the work in a different way which is interesting. I think we had brought in a Chrome extension for Trello. I think it's like Hello Epics or something like that that allows...it abuses the card linking functionality in Trello and repurchases that feature as an epic management thing. But it's quarter-baked is how I would describe it, or it's clearly built on top of existing things that were not intended to be used exactly in that way. So it does a great job. Hello Epics does a great job of trying to make something like parent-child list management stuff happen in Trello. But it's always going feel like an afterthought, a secondary feature, something that's bolted on. Whereas in Linear, it's like, no, no, we absolutely have the idea of projects, of course, and you can see burndown charts and things. And the thing that I do want to be careful about is not leaning too much into management. Linear has the idea of cycles or sprints, as many other folks think of them, or iterations or whatever you want to call them. But we've largely not been working in that mode. We've just continued to work through the next up list; that's it. The next up list should be prioritized and well defined at the top and roughly in priority order. So just pick up the next card and work on it. And we just do that every single day. And now we're in a piece of software that has the idea of cycles, and I'm like, oh, this is vaguely interesting. Do we want to do that? Oh, but if you're going to do that, you probably do some estimation, right? And I was like, oh no, now we're into a place that's...okay, I have feelings. I got to decide how to approach that. And so, I am intrigued. And I wonder if we could just say like ten carts that's how many come into a cycle, and that's it. And we use the loosest heuristics possible to define how we structure a cycle so that we don't fall into the trap of, oh, what's our roadmap going to look like six months from now? JK, what's anything going to look like six months from now? That's not a knowable fact. STEPH: I was just thinking where you said that you're moving into sprints or cycles, and then there's that push, well, now you got to estimate. And I just thought, do you? Do you have to estimate? [laughs] CHRIS: We need a burndown chart through 2024, and it must be meticulously accurate down to the hour. STEPH: I think meticulously wrong is how that goes. [laughs] CHRIS: Which is the best kind of wrong. If you're going to be wrong, be meticulous about it. STEPH: Be thorough about it. [laughs] Yeah, the team that I'm on right now, we have our bi-weekly planning, and we go through the board, and we pull stuff in. But there's never a discussion about estimation. And I hadn't really appreciated that until just now. How we don't think about how long is this going to take? We just talked about, well, what's in-flight? And how much work do people still have going on? And then here's the list of things we can pull in. But there's always a list that you can go back to. Like, it's very...we pull in the minimum and knowing that if we run out of work, there's another place to go where there's stuff that's organized. And I just love that cadence, that idea of like, let's not try to make guesses about the future; let's just have it lined up and ready for us to go when we're ready to pull it in. Although I know, that's also coming from a very developer's perspective, and there are product managers who are trying to communicate as to when features are going to get out into the world. So I get that there's a balance, but I still have strong feelings and hesitations around estimating work. CHRIS: Well, I feel like there is a balance there. And so many things in history are like, well, this is an overcorrection against that, and that's an overcorrection against this. And the idea that we can estimate our work that far out into the future that's just obviously false to me based on every project I've ever worked on that has tried to do it. And it has always failed without question. But critically, there is the necessity to sync up work and like, oh, marketing needs to plan the launch of this feature, and it's a critical one. What's it going to look like? When's it going to be ready? You know, we're trying to go for an event, it's not just know...we developers never estimate anything past the immediate moment where like, that's not acceptable. We got to find a middle ground here. But where that middle ground is, is interesting. And so, just operating in the sort of we do work as it comes up is the easiest thing because no one's lying about anything at that point. But sometimes you got to make some guesses and make some estimations. And then it gets into the murky area of I believe with 75% confidence that in three weeks, we will have this feature ready. But to be clear, I said with 75% confidence that means one-quarter of the time; we will not be there at that date. What does that mean? What does that failure mode look like? Let's talk about that. And can you have honest, open, transparent, useful conversations there? That's the space that it becomes more subtle if you need to do that. STEPH: You're reminding me of a conversation that I had with someone where they shared with me some very aggressive team goals. And it was a very friendly conversation. And they're like, "How do you feel about aggressive goals?" And I was like, "Well, it depends. How do you feel about aggressive failure?" Because then once I know where you stand there, then we can talk about aggressive goals. Now, if we're being aggressive, but then we fail to achieve that, and it's one of those, okay, we didn't meet the goal that we'd expected, but everything is fine, and it's not a big deal, then I am okay. Sure, let's shoot for the stars. But if it's one of those, we are communicating these goals to the outside world, and it's going to become incredibly important that we meet these goals, and if we don't, then things are going to go on fire, people are going to be in trouble, and it's just going to be awful, then let's not set aggressive goals. Let's not box ourselves into a space where we are setting ourselves up to fail or feel pain in a meaningful way. I agree that estimations are important, especially in terms of you need to collaborate with other departments, and then also just to provide some sense of where the product is headed and when things may be released. I think estimations then just become problematic when they do become definite, and they're based on so many unknowns, and then when I don't know is not an answer. So if someone asked, "What's your estimate for this?" And the very honest real answer is I don't know, like, we haven't done this type of work before, or these are all the unknowns, and then someone's like, "Well, let's just put an estimation of like two weeks on it," and they just sort of try to force-fit it into being what they want, then that's where it starts to just feel incredibly problematic. CHRIS: Yeah, estimation is a very murky area that we could spend entire episodes talking about, and in fact, I think we have a handful of times. So with that, Linear has been great. We're going to see just how much or how little estimation we actually want to do. But it's been a very nice addition to the toolset. And I'll let you know as we deepen our usage of it what the experience is like, but that's the main thing that's new in my world. What's new in your world? STEPH: Well, before we bounce over to my world, you said something that has intrigued me that has also made me start reflecting on some of the ways that I like to work. And you'd mentioned that you have this prioritized backlog that people are pulling tickets from. And I don't know exactly if there's a planning session or how that looks, but I have recognized that when I am working with a team, and we don't have any planning session, if everybody is just pulling from this backlog, that's being prioritized by someone on the team, that I find that a bit overwhelming. Because the types of work being done can vary so drastically that I find I'm less able to help my colleagues or my teammates because I don't have the context for what they're working on. It surprises me. I'm like, oh, I didn't even know we're working on that feature, or I don't have the context for what's the problem that we're trying to solve here. And it makes it just a lot harder to review and then have conversations with them. And I get overwhelmed in that environment. And I've recognized that about myself based on previous projects that were more similar to that versus if I'm on a project where the team does get together every so often, even if it's high level to be like, hey, here's the theme of the tickets that we're working on, or here's just some of the stuff, then I feel much more prepared for the work that is coming in and to be able to context switch and review. And yeah, so I've kind of learned that about myself. I'm curious, are you similar, or how does that work for you? CHRIS: I'm definitely similar. And I think probably the team is closer to what you're describing. So we do have a planning session every week, just a quick 30-minute scan through the backlog, look at the things that are coming up and also the larger themes. Previously, Epics and Trello now projects and Linear. But talking about what are the bigger pieces of work that we're moving on, and then what are the individual tickets associated with that that we'll be expecting to work on in the next week? And just making sure that everyone has broad clarity around what that feature set is. Also, we're a very small team at this point. Still, we're four people total, but one of the developers is on a break for a couple of weeks this summer. And so there are really only three of us that are driving on the code. And so, with three of us working on the projects, we try very intentionally to have significant overlap between the various...like, we don't want any one person to own any portion of things at this point. And so we're doing a good amount of pairing to cross-pollinate and make sure everyone's...not everyone's aware of everything, but at least one other person is sufficiently aware of everything between the three of us. And I think that's been working well. I don't think we have any major gaps, save for the way that we're doing our mobile architecture that's largely managed by one of the developers on the team and a contractor that we're working with to help do a lot of the implementation. That's a known we chose to silo that thing. We've accepted the cost of that for now. And architecturally, the rest of us are aware of it, but we're not like in the Swift code writing anything because I don't know how to write Swift at this point. I'd love to learn it. I hear good things about the language. [12:26] So yeah, I think conceptually very similar to what you're describing of still want to have people be able to review. Like, I don't want to put up a PR and people be like, I don't know, that looks like code, I guess. I'm not sure what it does. Like, I want it to be very...I want us all to be roughly on the same page, and thus far, we are. As the team grows, that will become trickier to maintain because there are just inherently probably more things that are moving, more different feature areas and surface area that we're tackling in any given week, or there are different ways to approach that. I know you've talked about having a limited number of themes for a given cycle, so that's an idea that can pop up. But that's something that we'll figure out as we get further. I think I'm happy with where we're at right now, so yeah, that's the story there. STEPH: Okay, cool. Yeah, all of that resonates with me, and thinking about it a little more deeply in this moment, I'm realizing I think something you said helped me put this together where when I'm reviewing someone's change, I'm not necessarily just looking to see does your code work? I'm going to trust you that your code works. I may have thoughts about design and other things, but I really want to understand more what's the change to the product that we're making? What's the goal that we're looking to achieve? How are we measuring this? And so if I don't have that context, that's what contributes to that feeling of like, hard context switching of not just context switching, but now I have to level myself up to then understand the problem that's being solved by this. Versus had I known some of the themes going into that particular cycle or sprint, I would have felt far more prepared for that review session versus having to then dig through all the data and/or tickets or talk to someone. Well, switching back to what's going on in my world, I have a particular tweet that I want to share, and it's one that Joël Quenneville brought to my attention. And it just resonates so much with all the type of work that I'm doing right now. So I'm going to read the tweet, and then we'll link to it in the show notes as well. But it's from Curtis Einsmann, and Curtis wrote: "In software engineering, rabbit holes are inevitable. You will research libraries and not use them. You'll write code just to delete it. This isn't a waste; sometimes, you need to go down a few wrong paths to get to the right one." And that describes all the work that I'm doing right now. It's a lot of exploratory, a lot of data-driven work, and finding ways that we can reduce the time that it takes to run RSpec on CI. And it also ties in nicely to one of the things that I think we talked about last week, where we discovered that a number of files have a high runtime variance. And I've really dug into the data there to understand, okay, is it always specific files that have these high runtime variants? Are there any obvious contributions to what's causing this? Are we making real network calls that then could sometimes take a long time to return? And the result is there's nothing obvious. They're giant files. The number of SQL commands that are being run for each file varies drastically. They're all high, but it's still very different. There's no single fact about these files that has really been like, yes, this is what's causing these files to have such a runtime variance. And so while I've been in the data, I'm documenting it, and I'm making a list and putting it all together in a ticket so at least it's there to look at later. But I'm going to move on. It's one of those I would love to know what's causing this. I would love to address it because it would put us in an ideal state for how we're distributing tests, which would have a significant impact on our runtime. But it also feels a little bit like chasing my tail because I'm worried, like with some of the other experiments that we've done in the past where we've addressed tentpoles, that as soon as you address the issue for one or two files, then other files start having the same problem. And you're just going to continue to chase and chase, and I don't want to be in that. So upfront, this was one of those; hey, let's look at the data. If there's something obvious, let's address it; if not, move on. So I'm at that point today where I'm wrapping up all of that data, and then I'm going to move on, move on to the next thing. CHRIS: There's deep truth in that tweet that you shared at the start of this segment. The idea like if we knew the work that we had to do at the front, yeah, we would just do that, but often, we don't. And so, being able to not treat it as a failure when something doesn't work out is, I think, so critical. I think to expand on the idea just a tiny bit, the idea of the scientific method, failure is totally an option and is part of science. I remember watching MythBusters, and Adam Savage is just kind of like, "Failure is always an option," and highlighting that as part of it. Like, it's an outcome. You've learned something. You have a new data point. You can take that and then carry it forward with you. But it's rough in the moment. And so, I do think that this is a worthwhile thing to meditate on. And it's something that I've had to revisit a handful of times in my career of just like, man, I feel like I've just been spinning my tires all week. I'm like, we know what we want to get done, but just each approach I take isn't working for one reason or another. And then, finally, you get to the end. And then you've got this paragraph-long summary of all the things that didn't work in your PR and one-line change sort of thing. And those are painful, but they're part of the game. Like, that is unavoidable. I have not found a way to just know how to do the work upfront always. I would love that. I would sign up for whatever seminar was selling that. I wouldn't. I would know that that seminar is a lie, actually. But broadly, I'm intrigued by the idea if someone were selling that, I'd be like, well, I mean, pitch me on it. Tell me why I should believe you; I don't, just to be clear. But yeah. STEPH: This project has really helped me embrace always setting a goal or a question upfront about what I'm wanting to achieve or what I'm looking to answer because a number of times while Joël and I have been spelunking through data...And then so originally, with the saga, we started out with why doesn't our math match reality? We understand that if these tests are distributed perfectly across the CPUs, then that should cut the runtime in half. But yet, we weren't seeing that even though we had addressed the tentpoles. So we dug into understanding why. And the answer is because they're not perfectly distributed, and it's because of the runtime variance. And that was a critical moment to look back and say, "Did we achieve the goal?" Yes, we identified the problem. But once you see a problem, it's just so easy to dig in and keep going. It's like, well, now I want to know what's causing these files to have a runtime variance. But it's one of those we achieved our goal. We acknowledged upfront that we wanted to at least understand why. Let's make a second decision, do we keep going? And I'm at that point where, frankly, I probably dug in a little more than I should because I'm stubborn. But I'm recognizing that now's the time to back away and then go back and move on to the next high-priority item, which is converting for funsies; I'll share. The next thing is converting Test::Unit test over to RSpec because we have, I think, around 25 tests that are written in Test::Unit. And we want to move them over to RSpec because that particular just step in the build process takes a good three to four minutes. And part of that is just booting up Rails and then running the tests very fast. And we're underutilizing the machine that's running them because it's only 25 tests, but there are 86 CPUs to run it. So we'd really like to combine those 25 tests with the rest of the RSpec suite and drop that step. So then that should add minimal time to the overall build but then should take us down at least a couple of minutes. And then also makes it easier to manage and help folks so that way, there's one consistent testing framework that's in use versus having to manage some of these older tests. CHRIS: It's funny; I think it was just two episodes back where we talked about why RSpec, and I think both of us were just like, well yeah. But I mean, if there are tests and another, like, it's fine, you just leave them with the exception that if there's like 2% of our tests are in Test::Unit, and everything else is in RSpec, yeah, maybe that that conversion efforts seem totally worth it. But again, I think as you're describing that, what I'm hearing is just like the scientific method, just being somewhat structured in the approach to what's the hypothesis? And what's the procedure we're going to use to determine if that hypothesis is true or false? And then what do we do? And then what are the results? And then you just do that on loop. But being not just sort of exploring. Sometimes you have to be on exploratory mode. But I definitely find that that tiny bit of rigor of just like, wait, okay, before I actually do anything, what do I think is going on here? What's my guess? And then, okay, if that guess were true, what would I be able to observe in the world? Okay, here we go. And just that tiny bit of structure is so...it sometimes feels highly formal to go into that mode and be like, no, no, no, let me take a step back. Let me write down my thoughts. I'm going to have a little checklist and do the thing. But I've never regretted doing it. I will say that. I have deeply regretted not doing it. I feel like I should make a list of things that fit that structure. I've never regretted committing in Git ever. That's been great. I've always been able to unwind it, but I've never been able to not unwind it or the opposite. I've regretted not committing. I have not regretted committing. I have regretted not writing out my hypothesis or approach. I have not regretted doing it. And so, yeah, this feels like it falls firmly in that category of like, it's worth just a tiny bit of structure. There's a reason it is the scientific method. STEPH: Yeah, I agree. I've not regretted documenting upfront what it is I look to achieve and how I think I'm going to answer the question. That has been immensely helpful. Because then I also forget, like, two weeks ago, I'll be like, wasn't there a question around why this was happening, and I need to understand? And all of that was so context-heavy that as soon as I'm out of the thick of it, I completely forget it. So if I care about it deeply or if I want to be able to revisit it, then I need to document it for myself. It's given me a lot of empathy for people who do more scientific research around, oh my gosh, like, you have to document everything you do and then still be able to prove it five years from now or however long. I'm just throwing out numbers. And it needs to be organized enough that someone, if they do question your research that, then you have it there. My research documents would not withstand scrutiny at this point because they are still just more personal notes. But yes, it's given me a lot of empathy and respect for people who do run very serious research, experiments, and trials, and then have to be able to prove it to the world. Pivoting just a bit, there's a particular topic that resonated with both you and I; in fact, it's a particular tweet. And, Louie, I do apologize if I mispronounce your last name, but Louie Bacaj. And we'll include a link in the show notes to the tweet, but Louis shared, "I managed multiple engineering teams before quitting tech. Now that I quit, I can speak freely. Here are 12 things your manager may not be telling you, but I know for a fact will help you." So there are a number of interesting discussions and comments that are in this thread. The one thing in particular that really caught my attention is number 10, and it's "Advocate for junior developers." So they said that their friend reminded them that just because you don't have 10-plus years of experience does not mean that they won't be good. Without junior engineers on the team, no one will grow. Help others grow; you'll grow too. And that's the part that I love so much is that without junior engineers on the team, no one will grow because that was very thought-provoking for me. It's something that I find that I agree with deeply, but I hadn't really considered why I agree with that so much. So I'm excited to dive into that topic with you. And then, as a second topic to go along with that is, can juniors start with a remote team? I think that's one of the other questions when you and I were chatting about this. And I'm intrigued to hear your thoughts. CHRIS: A bunch of stuff there. Starting with the tweet, I love elements of this. Some of it feels like it's intentionally somewhat provocative. So like, without junior engineers on the team, no one will grow. That feels maybe a little bit past the bar because I think we can technically grow, and we can build things and whatnot. But I think what feels deeply true to me is truly help others grow; you'll grow too. The act of mentoring, of guiding, of training, of helping someone on their journey will inherently help you grow and, I think, change the way that you think about the work. I think the beginner mind, the earlier in the career folks coming into a codebase, they will see things fundamentally differently in a really useful way. It's possible that along your career, you've just internalized things. You've been like, yeah, no, that was weird. But then I smashed my head against it for a while, and now I understand this thing. And it just makes sense to me. But it's like, that thing actually doesn't make sense. You have warped your mind to match the thing, not, quote, unquote, "come to understand it." This is sounding too judgmental to people who've been in the industry for a while, but I found this of myself. Or I can just take for granted things that took a long time to adapt my head to, and if anything, maybe I should have pushed back a little more. And so, I find that junior engineers can be a really fantastic lens for the complexity of a project. Like, the world is truly a complex place, and that's just true. But our job as software engineers is to tame that complexity and manage it. And so, I love the mindset that can come or the conversations that can come out of that. And it's much like test-driven development is a pressure on the complexity of your code, having junior engineers join the team and needing to explain how all of the different features work, and what the overall architecture is, and the message passing under this and that, it's a really useful conversation to have. And so that "Help others grow; you'll grow too" feels deeply, deeply true to me. STEPH: Yeah, I couldn't agree more in regards to how juniors really help our team and especially, as you mentioned, with complexity and ¬having those conversations. Some of the other things that have come to mind for me as well around the importance of having junior developers on your team...and maybe it's not specifically they're junior developers but that you just have a variety of experience on your team. It's going to help you lean into a culture of learning because you have people that are at different stages of their career. And so you want an environment where people can learn together, that they can fail together, and they can be public about it. And having people that are at different stages of their career will lead, well, at least ideally, it'll lead to more pair programming. It's going to lead to more productive code reviews because then people can ask more questions around why did you choose this, or why are you doing that? Versus if everybody is at the same level, then they may just intuitively have reasons that they think someone did something. But it takes someone that's a bit new to say, "Hey, why did you choose this?" or to bring up some other ideas or ways that they could pursue it. They may bring in new ideas for, like, why has the team always done something this way? Let's think about new ways that we could do this. Or maybe this is really unfriendly, the way that we're doing this, not just for junior people but for people that are new to the team. And then there's typically less knowledge siloing because then you're going to want to pair the newer folks with the more experienced folks. So that way, you don't have this more senior developer who's then off in a corner working by themselves. And it's going to improve your communication skills. There's just...I realized I'm just rambling because I feel like there are so many benefits that go along with having a variety of people on your team, especially in terms of experience. And that just leads to such a better learning environment and, ultimately, better software and better products. And yet, I find that so many companies won't embrace people that are newer to software. They always want the senior developers. They want the 10x-er or whatever those are. They want the people that have many, many years of experience. And there's so much value that comes from mentoring the next group of developers. And it's incredibly frustrating to me that one, companies often aren't open to it. But honestly, more than that, as long as you're upfront and honest about like, hey, this is the team that we need right now to build what we're looking to build, I can get past that; I can understand that. But please don't then mislead people and say that you're a junior-friendly team, and then not be prepared. I feel like some teams will go so far as to say, "Yes, we are junior-friendly," and they may even tweak their interview process to where it is a bit more junior-friendly. But then, by the time that person joins the team, they're really not prepared. They don't have an onboarding plan. They don't have a mentorship plan. And then they fail that person because that person has worked hard to get there. And they've worked hard to bring that person onto the team, but then they don't have a plan from there. And I've seen it too many times. And it just frustrates me so much because it puts that junior person in such a vulnerable state where they really have to be an incredible self-advocate to then overcome those hurdles from a lack of preparation on that company's part. Okay, I think that's my event. I'm sure I could vent about this a lot more, but I will cut it off there. That's the heart of it. CHRIS: I do think, like, with anything else, it's something that we have to be intentional about. And so what you're saying of like, yeah, we're a junior-friendly company, but then you're just hiring folks, trying to find folks that may work at a slightly lower pay grade, and that's what that means to you. So like, no, no, that's not what this is. This needs to be something different. We need to have a structure and an organization that can support folks at different points in their career. But it's interesting to me to think about the sort of why of it. And the earlier part of this conversation, we talked about some of the benefits that can come organizationally from it, and I do sincerely believe in that. But I also believe that it is fundamentally one of the best ways to find really talented people early on in their career and be in a position to hire them where maybe later on in their career, that just wouldn't happen naturally. And I've seen this play out in a number of organizations. I went to Northeastern University for my college, and Northeastern is famous for the co-op program. Northeastern sounds really fancy. Now I learned that they have like a 7% acceptance rate for college applications right now, which is wildly low. When I went to Northeastern, it was not so fancy. So just in case anyone's hearing that and they're like, "Oh, Northeastern, wow." I'm not that fancy. [laughs] But they did have the co-op then, and they still have it now. And the co-op really is a differentiating thing. You do three six-month rotations. And it is this fundamental differentiator in terms of when you're graduating. Particularly, I was in mechanical engineering. I came out, and I actually knew what that meant in the world. And I'd used Outlook, and I knew what a water cooler was and how to talk near one because that's a critical thing to learn in the world. And really transformative experience for me. But also, a thing that I observed was many of my friends ended up working at companies that they had co-opted for. I'm one of those people. I would say more than 50% of my friends ended up with a position at a company that they had done a co-op rotation with. And it really worked out fantastically. That organization and the individual got to try things out, experience. And then, I ended up staying at that company for a number of years, and it was a wonderful experience. But I don't know that I would have ended up there otherwise. That's not necessarily the way that would have played out. And similarly like, thoughtbot has the apprenticeship. And I have seen so many wonderful developers start at that very early point in their career. And there was this wonderful structure around them joining the thoughtbot team, intentional, structured, supported. And then those folks went on to be some of the most talented developers that I've ever worked with at a wonderfully talented organization. And so the story of like, you should do this, organizations. This is a thing that you should invest in for yourself, not just for the individual, like, for both. Everybody wins in this case, in my mind. I will say, though, in terms of transparency, I currently manage a team of three developers. And we hired very intentionally for senior folks this early on in where we're at. And that was an intentional choice because I do believe that if you're going to be hiring more junior developers, that needs to be something that you do very intentionally, that you have a support structure in place, that you're able to invest the time in where they're at and make sure we have sort of... I think a larger team makes more sense to bring juniors into broadly. That's the thing that I'm saying out loud that I'm like, I should push on that a little bit. Is that true? Do I really believe that? But I think so, my actions obviously point to it. But it is an interesting trade-off space of how do you think about that? My hope is that as we grow as an organization, that we would then very intentionally start hiring folks in a more junior, mid-level to junior and be very intentional about how we support them, bring them into the organization, et cetera. I do believe it is a win-win situation for everyone when done with intention and with focus. STEPH: That's such an interesting bit that you just said because I very much appreciate when companies recognize do we have the bandwidth to support someone that's more junior? Because at thoughtbot, we go through periods where we don't have our apprenticeship that's open because we recognize we're not in a place that we can support someone. And we don't want to bring someone in unless we can help them be successful. I very much admire that and appreciate that about companies when they can perform that self-assessment. I am so intrigued. You'd mentioned being a smaller team. So you more intentionally hire senior developers. And I think that also makes sense because then you need to build up who's going to be in that mentorship pool? Because then people could leave, people could take vacations, and so then you need to have that support system in place. But yeah, I don't know what that then perfect balance is. It's like, okay, so then as soon as you have like five people available to mentor or interested in mentorship, it's like, then do you start bringing in the conversation of like, let's bring in someone that we can help build up and help them be successful and join our team? And I don't know what that magical number is. I do think it's important for teams to reflect to say, "Can we take on someone that's junior?" All the benefits of having someone that's junior. And then just being very honest and then having a plan for once that junior person does arrive. What does their career path look like while they've joined that team, and who's going to be that person that's going to help them level up? So not only make that choice upfront of yes, we are bringing someone on but let's also think about like the first six months of their work here at the company and what that's going to look like. It feels like an important step that a lot of companies fail to do. And I think that's why there are so many articles that then are like, hey, if you're a junior dev, here's all the things that you should do to be the best junior dev. That's fabulous. And we're constantly shoring up junior devs to be like, hey, here's all the things that you need to be great at. But we don't have as many conversations around; hey, here's all the things that your manager or the rest of your team should be great at to then support you equally as you are also doing your best to meet them. Like, they need to meet you halfway. And I'm not completely unsympathetic to the plight; I understand. It's often where I've seen with teams the more senior developers that have very strong mentorship communication skills are then also the teammates that get pulled into all the meetings and all the different projects, so then they are less available to be that mentor. And then that's how this often fails. So I don't think anybody is going into this intentionally, but yet, it's what happens for when someone is new and joining a team, and it hasn't been determined the next six months what that person's onboarding and career path looks like. Circling back just a bit, there's the question around, can juniors start with a remote team? I can go first. And I'm going to say unequivocally yes. There's no reason a junior can't start with a remote team. Because all the things that I feel strongly about come down to how is your team going to plan for this person? And how are they going to support this person? And all the benefits that you get from being in an office with a team, I think those do exist. And frankly, for someone like myself, it can be easier to establish a bond with someone that you get to see each day, get to see in person. You can walk up to their desk and can say, "Hey, I've got a question for you." But I think all those benefits just need to be transferred into a remote-friendly way. So I think it does ratchet up how intentional you have to be with your team and then onboarding a junior developer. But I absolutely think it's doable, and we should do it. CHRIS: You went with unequivocally yes as your answer. I'm going to go with a qualified maybe as my answer. I want this to be true, and I think it can be true. But I think it takes all the more intentionality than even what we've been describing. To shift the question around a little bit, what does remote work mean? It doesn't just mean we're doing the work, but we're separate. I think remote work inherently is at its best when we also are largely async first. And so that means more structured writing. The nature of the conversation tends to be more well-formed in each interaction. So it's like I read a big document, and then I pass it over to you. And at your leisure, you respond to it with a bunch of notes, and then it comes back to me. And I think that mode of interaction, while absolutely wonderful and something that I love, I think it fits really well when you're a little bit further on in your career when you understand things a little bit better. And I think the dance of conversation is more useful earlier on and so forth. And so, for someone who's newer to a team, I think having the ability to ask a quick question over and over is really useful to someone who's early on in their career. And remote, again, I think it's at its best when it's async. And those two are sort of at odds. And so it's that mild tension that gives me pause of like, something that I think that makes remote work great I do think is at least a hurdle that you would have to get over in supporting someone who's a little bit newer. Because I want to be deeply present for someone who's newer to their journey so that they can ask a lot of questions so that I am available to be interrupted regularly. I loved at thoughtbot sitting next to someone and being their mentor and being like, yeah, anytime you want, just tap on my desk. If I got my headphones on, that doesn't mean I'm ignoring you; it means I just need to make the sounds go away for a minute because that's the only way my brain will work. But feel free to just tap on my desk or whatever and grab my attention for a moment. And I'm available for that. That's an intentional choice. That's breaking up my continuity of the day, but we're choosing that for a reason. I think that's just a little harder to do in a remote context and all the more so if we're saying, hey, we're going to try this async thing where we write structured documents, and we communicate in these larger, more well-formed, communicates back and forth. But I do believe it can be done. I think it should be done. I just think it's all the harder for all of those reasons. STEPH: I agree that definitely makes it harder. But I'm going to push a little bit and say that when you mentioned being deeply present, I think we can be deeply present with someone and be remote. We can reduce the async requirements. So if you are someone that is more senior or more accustomed to the team, you can fall back to more of those async ways to communicate. But if someone is new, and needs more mentorship, then let's just set up time where we're going to literally hang out for a couple of hours each day or whatever pairing environment works best for them because pairing can also be exhausting. But hey, we're going to have a check-in each day; maybe we close out each day and touchpoint. And feel free to still message me and interrupt me. Like, you're going to just heighten your availability, even though it is remote. And be aware, like, hey, this person could message me at more times, and I'm okay with that. I have opted into this form of communication. So I think we just take that mindset of, hey, there's this person next to me, and I'm their mentor to like, hey, they're not next to me, but I'm still their mentor, and I'm still here for them. So I agree that it's harder. I think it falls on us and the team and the mentors to change ourselves versus saying to juniors, "Hey, sorry, it's remote. That's not going to work for you." It totally works for them. It's us, the mentors, that need to figure out how to make it work. I will say being on that mentor side that then not being able to see someone so if they are next to me, I can pick up on body language and facial expressions, and I can tell when somebody's stuck. And I can see that they're frustrated, or I can see that now's a good time for me to just be like, "Hey, how's it going? What are you working on? Or do you need help with something?" And I don't have that insight when I'm away. So there are real challenges like that that I don't know how to address. I have gone the obnoxious route [laughs] where I just message people, and I'm like, "Hey, how's it going? How's it going? How's it going?" And I try not to do that too much. But I haven't found a better way to manage that other than to constantly check in because I do have less feedback from that person that I'm working with unless they are just incredibly open about sharing when they're stuck. But typically, when you're newer to a team or newer to a career, you're going to be less willing to share when you're stuck. But yeah, there are some real challenges, but I still think it's something for us to figure out. Because otherwise, if we cut off access for remote teams to junior folks, I mean, that's where we're headed. There are so many companies and jobs that are headed remote that not being junior friendly and being remote in my mind is just not an option. It's something that we need to figure out. And it's hard, but we need to figure it out. CHRIS: Yeah, 100% on we need to figure that out and that that's on us as the people managing and structuring and bringing folks into teams. I think my stance would be like, let's just be clear that this is hard. It takes effort to make sure that we've provided a structure in which someone newer to a team can be successful. It takes all the more effort to do so in a remote context, I think. And it's that recognition that I think is critical. Because if we go into this with the wrong mindset, it's like, oh yeah, it's great. We got this new person on the team. And yeah, they should be ready to go in like two weeks, right? It's like, no, no, this is a different thing. We need to be very clear about it. This is going to require that we have someone who is able to work with them and support them in this. And that means that that person's output will likely be a little bit reduced for the period of time that we're talking about. But we're playing a long game here. Let's make sure we're clear on that. This is intentional. And let's be clear, the world of hiring and software right now it's not like super easy. There aren't way more software developers than there are jobs; at least, that's been my experience. So this is something absolutely worth investing in for just core business reasons and also good for people. So hey, it's a win-win. Let's do it. Let's figure it out. But also, let's be clear that it's going to be a little tricky along the way. So, you know, let's be intentional about that. But yeah, obviously do it, got to do it. STEPH: Wait, so I feel like we might have circled back to unequivocally yes. [laughs] Have we gotten there, or are you still on the fence? CHRIS: I was unequivocally yes from the beginning, but I couched it in, but...yeah, I said other things. You're right. I have now come around; let's say to unequivocally yes. STEPH: [laughs] Cool. I don't want to feel like I'm forcing you to agree with me. [laughs] But I mean, we just so rarely disagree. So we've either got to identify this as something that we disagree on, which would be one of those rare occasions like beer and Pop-Tarts. CHRIS: A watershed moment. Beer and Pop-Tarts. STEPH: Yeah, those are the only two so far. [laughter] CHRIS: Not together also. I just want to go on record beer and Pop-Tarts; I don't think would be...anyway. STEPH: Ooh, I don't know. It could work. It could work. CHRIS: Well, there's another thing we disagree on. STEPH: I would not turn it down. If I was eating a Pop-Tart, and you're like, "Hey, you want a beer?" I'd be like, "Sure," vice versa. I'm drinking a beer. "Hey, you want a Pop-Tart?" "Totally." CHRIS: Okay. Well yeah, if I'm making bad decisions, I'm obviously going to chain them together, but that doesn't mean that they're a good decision. It's just a chain of bad decisions. STEPH: I feel like one true thing I know about you is that when you make a decision, you're going to lean into it. So like, this is why you are all about if you're going to have a Pop-Tart, you're going to have the highest sugary junk content Pop-Tart possible. So it makes sense to me. CHRIS: It's the Mountain Dew theorem, yeah. STEPH: I didn't know this had a theorem. The Mountain Dew theorem? CHRIS: No, that's just my name. Well, yeah, if I'm going to drink soda, I'm going to drink Mountain Dew, the nonsense nuclear option of soda. So yeah, I guess you're describing me, although as you say it back to me, I suddenly feel very, like, oh God, is this who I am as a person? [laughs] And I'm not going to say you're wrong. I'm just going to spend a little while thinking about some stuff. STEPH: I mean, you embrace it. I think that's lovely. You know what you want. It's like, all right, let's do this. Let's go all in. CHRIS: Thank you for finding a wonderfully positive way to frame it here at the end. But I think on that note, should we wrap up? STEPH: Let's wrap up. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Devin: What do you see as your superpower?Chris: There are a couple of things, and I hesitate to label them superpowers because that doesn't feel right.Chris: What I've recognized, and it's been by happenstance, [is] that for some reason people will listen when I say stuff, and if I say it well, they might think about doing it…One of the things that I have, I think, has been helpful for me in this movement is I've been able to envision what this looks like when we have much more democratic economies and have much more equitable access to capital...A fundamental desire to do things which benefit others, I think that's a piece of it.Christopher D. Miller has spent decades focused on strengthening his community. Along the way, he identified a lack of workable capital structures as a difficult problem. Finding like-minded peers led him to create the nonprofit National Coalition for Community Capital (NC3).A crowdfunding community leader, Chris will be speaking at SuperCrowd22, and NC3 is serving as a co-host for the event.Chris recently took a new position at Plane Wave Instruments; he remains actively involved as a board member at NC3.Founding NC3Chris served as both an appointed and as an elected city official in his Michigan hometown of Adrian before becoming its economic development officer. He took that last position at the beginning of the Great Recession in 2008.Chris shared the challenge involved in his new role—for which he acknowledges he had no formal training:I had heard this steady drumbeat in conferences and workshops. Nobody is coming to rescue you. You're going to have to do this on your own. Even existing businesses in my community that had longstanding relationships with banks were having trouble, trouble accessing capital.When the JOBS Act passed in 2012, he started reading up on it. He read Locavesting by Amy Cortese. Inspired by her book, he convinced her to visit Adrian to speak to a group of local business leaders.Her message resonated and led to significant outcomes. First, a group of local leaders who had been talking about buying a struggling downtown building came together, raised money from two dozen investors and bought it. “It immediately started cash flowing,” Chris says.Having saved the building from foreclosure and the tenants from eviction, they raised more money to improve it further, first upgrading the facade and then adding apartments. Then, they bought a second building, followed by a third, repeating the process in each case. The result was “a huge impact in downtown,” Chris says.The second thing that came from Amy’s presentation was to grow Chris’s network in the investment crowdfunding community. While the JOBS Act was law, The SEC had not implemented it. Georgia began work on a state law to allow a more straightforward process for investment crowdfunding.After connecting with the leaders in Georgia, Chris began advocating for a similar law in Michigan, which he quickly got passed—even before the Georgia bill became law. Dozens of states now have similar laws.As Chris’s network grew, he continued finding people from communities like Adrian around the country with similar challenges around capital formation. In 2016, after connecting with a group of peers at a conference in Oregon, he led the formation of NC3.Chris shared his vision for NC3:We want to be a big tent organization. You know, there's a lot of folks from a lot of different philosophical perspectives that are interested in the movement. It gained a lot of traction in COVID because the long-standing hurts that have been done to a lot of communities became painfully clear to a lot more folks, and the income disparity became painfully clear to a lot more folks. The real inefficiencies in that system became clear to folks. So, we've tried to partner very broadly, both with traditional sources of capital and with friends on the other side that want to get rid of capital altogether. It's a really interesting mix.“We're looking to build individual wealth and community wealth, in particular in those communities and individuals that have not been well served by the existing system,” Chris says of NC3’s mission.To support this vital work, subscribe.The Power and Impact of Investment CrowdfundingNow a decade into the community capital movement, Chris is familiar with countless examples of companies raising money with significant impact on their communities. He shared a few examples with me.Chris connected with some entrepreneurs in the nearby town of Tecumseh who were looking to launch a micro-brewery. He explained the new state law about crowdfunding and suggested they could be the first to raise money under the new rules. That’s what happened.The group raised $175,000 from 23 investors, most from within the small community. That enabled them to purchase a building adjacent to the one they already owned.They used a “revenue share” model for the deal, promising a 10 percent annual return with the money to be repaid over five years. The company repaid the debt in just three and a half years.The success allowed them to go back to their investor group and raise more money for further expansion. When COVID struck, they went back again to raise $90,000 for a food truck. It has become a “significant employer” in downtown Tecumseh, Chris says.Chris also highlighted the story of a semi-pro soccer team called the Detroit City Football Club. They found a field owned by a school district that had been unused. They raised $775,000 from people around the state. “They launched the football club, and it's been gangbusters since then,” he says.A little closer to home, Chris notes that his wife, a lifelong educator, retired from the university to open a downtown cafe and candy shop. They raised $120,000 from 47 investors from seven states. The business is thriving 18 months after its launch in downtown Adrian.Chris, NC3 and SuperCrowd22As the organizer of SuperCrowd22, I am thrilled to have Chris on the program for the event and am extremely grateful to have NC3 as a co-host.Chris says, “It feels a lot to us like you're throwing a really cool party, and you've invited us to it.”A loose network of people from around the country, led by Chris, formed NC3; Chris knows well the power of networking. He says, “We're grateful for the opportunity and the connections” that SuperCrowd22 can provide. “So much of what we're all doing in this space is finding strategically aligned and mission-aligned partners who want to do it.”Because NC3 is a co-host for the event, NC3 members will receive a special low price for admission. Members are encouraged to reach out to NC3 for those details.Chris will be delivering a keynote address during the opening session of SuperCrowd22 on Thursday, September 15 at 11:00 AM Eastern. The title of his speech is “How to Save The World Using Community Capital.”Remember, Superpowers for Good free subscribers get 50 percent off the $199 conference ticket price here. Paid subscribers may attend for free! Subscribe today for just $5.95 per month.Chris has developed two superpowers, communication and vision, that he has used in his work.How to Develop Communication and Vision As SuperpowersAs Chris thinks about his superpower, his mind goes first to its foundation. As a child, when he went out door-to-door on Halloween for treats, his parents taught him to also take a milk carton to collect pennies for UNICEF. Fundamentally, Chris desires to help other people.For him, that desire is a vital part of developing his superpowers of communication and vision. When people hear him speak, they feel his passion for service.Developing the ability to envision something that isn’t there is more challenging, so we dug a bit deeper into that.He credits his reading of fiction, especially science fiction, for helping him acquire the ability to imagine solutions that don’t yet exist. That helped him form a habit of getting into a creative frame of mind.Chris confessed to something of a pet peeve. “Let's not reinvent the wheel.” That phrase is one he frequently rails against. “I have heard that thousands of times, and during the recession, I heard it 1,000 times, and I said, “No, if the people that had sledges said, ‘Let's not reinvent the sledge,’ we wouldn't have the wheel,” he says. “So, we definitely need to say, ‘Let's reinvent the wheel.’”Wisely, Chris adds that one failure doesn’t prove much. “We tried it once when it didn't work. Does that mean it's a bad idea?” No, he says. It could have been poorly executed or might have been bad timing. Creativity needs time, space and patience.As an aside, Chris offered some counsel he often shares with young people. “Find something you love right now. You've got incredible opportunities. You know, 100 years ago, you had six jobs you could have picked from. Now, you can do anything in the world.”By following Chris’s example and his advice, you can make communication and vision superpowers that will enable you to do more good. Get full access to Superpowers for Good at devinthorpe.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome to Season 3!  New episodes will be released througout the spring and summer of 2022. The first episode of season 3 features a conversation with Chris Mann '00.  Chris has built his career around making a difference in the lives of others.  He's joined in conversation with JP Cunningham '23.  They discuss Chris' time at Holy Cross and how he has carried the HC mission to serve others throughout his life and career. Interview originally recorded in November 2021. -- Chris: And so, I think you're seeing companies really say, "This is about our values and being clear on what our values are." Because our most important stakeholders, our people are saying that that's what matters to them and that's what they care about. And so, I think we just think about business differently. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. This episode features Chris Mann from the class of 2000. Maura: Chris's career has spanned roles that have one thing in common, making a positive impact on people and communities. He graduated from Holy Cross with a psychology major and art history minor. With this foundation, he joined the Dana-Farber and Jimmy Fund team, and his career flourished. Skilled at fundraising, event planning, marketing, and communications, Chris flexed his talents and roles at New Balance, Cone Communications, Reebok, and City Year. Maura: At the time this podcast was recorded, Chris worked as the Senior Vice President of Development for City Year. At the time this podcast is aired, Chris will have assumed a new role at Bain Capital as the first Vice President of Community Affairs, leading their philanthropy, employee volunteerism, events, and sponsorship. Chris is joined in conversation by JP Cunningham from the class of 2023. Maura: Their conversation is far-reaching but starts with the transformative years that Chris spent at Holy Cross, his time on the track and field team, and serving as senior class president, as well as his experiences during immersion programs and running summer orientation helped shape who he is today. Better yet, he can count the ways that the Holy Cross Alumni Network has supported him through each step in his career. A proud alumnus, Chris exemplifies the impact that one person can make by committing their talents to mission-driven work. JP: Hello, everyone. Thank you all for listening. I'm JP Cunningham. I'm a junior here at Holy Cross. And I'm joined by Chris Mann. Chris, how are you doing today? Chris: Hey, JP. I'm good. Good to be here with you today. JP: Thank you. So, yeah, I guess with that, we'll get right into it. I wanted to start with a little bit before your time at Holy Cross. So, my first question is, during your college search, what were some of the factors that drew you to the college? And was it your top choice? Yeah, if you can touch on that. Chris: Yeah, absolutely. So, like most high school students, I was looking at a lot of different schools. I didn't quite know what I wanted. I was the first and oldest child in my family, so I hadn't any brothers or sisters go through the college application process before. And at the time, this was in the mid-'90s, there wasn't as much information. It was kind of the glossy books you got in the mail and things like that, and word of mouth. But I knew a couple of things. Chris: I knew living in Andover, Massachusetts and growing up there, I wanted to be close enough to home that I could get back and forth. So, that kind of kept me looking at New England colleges for the most part. And as I started exploring, I knew about Holy Cross's reputation from an academic standpoint, but also had a couple of people at my high school, Andover High School, that I remember really respecting and looking up to in some ways that had gone to Holy Cross a couple of years before me. Chris: So, Chris Sintros, who was a class of '98, and Christine Anderson, class of '99. And I think it just piqued my interest to say, "Hey, those are people that I think I want to be like, and they chose this school." I actually got really fortunate to end up at Holy Cross. It was one of, I think, five schools I applied to, and I was waitlisted. So, I actually didn't know that I was going to get in until right to the end, and was really relieved and excited when I got in off the waitlist. Chris: And it ended up being a great scenario because I came on campus as the only person from my high school going to Holy Cross in that class. And I was matched up with three roommates in a quad in my freshman year. And it really helped me build some relationships and a network right away in a new place, new environment. JP: Awesome. That's really cool. Yeah, I can kind of relate to that, too, because both my dad and my sister went here, and then a lot of just friends and older classmates at my high school went to Holy Cross. And they're all just role models. And I felt the same way like, wow, this seems like a good place to be and that's what drew me there, too. So, it's great. Chris: Yeah. And I would say too, in visiting the school and seeing it, I mean, I certainly fell in love with the classic New England brick college, IV and setting, and it's a beautiful campus, as you know. And so, that, I was really excited about. And I started to get more and more of a field just as I came to visit a couple of different times. Chris: And as you started to read in and hear about the college's mission, and talking about being men and women for and with others, that all started to really resonate for me and felt a little different compared to some of the other schools that I had been visiting, and I loved that. I also really thought that the size was right for me. I was somewhat of a shy kid. I think I was trying to figure out where my place was. Chris: And I liked the idea of being in a school that felt a little smaller and where I wasn't going to get lost in the shuffle. And I think that ended up being a really big thing for me over the course of the four years, too. JP: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I feel like people might say it's cliche, but I feel like at Holy Cross, the sense of community, just being on campus that first time, at least for me too, visiting that first time, there's something about it that really draws you and makes you feel like, "Hey, this is the place for me." Yes. I guess moving into the next question, after you became a student here, what were some of the things you were involved in during your time on the Hill? And was there one that you were most passionate about? Chris: I got to do a lot of different things, which was to our earlier point, the benefit of going to a smaller school with a lot of opportunities. Off the bat, athletics ended up being a big thing for me, which wasn't something I had planned. I had done sports in high school all three seasons. Really, I was passionate about basketball and track and field, but hadn't expected to be able to do that in college. Chris: And I showed up on campus and I remember, I think it was probably the first week of school, I got a phone call from Larry Napolitano who was the captain of the track team just saying, "Hey, we saw you did track and field in high school. Would you be interested in coming out and joining the team?" And I said, "Yes", and it was one of the great experiences of my time on the Hill being able to be part of that team. Chris: I certainly wasn't a phenomenal athlete or setting any records, but being part of that team environment, getting a chance to get into the daily routine that athletes do I think really benefited me. The structure was really helpful. I think it prepared me for life after college and having a busy schedule of going from weightlifting, to workouts, to classes, to other things. Chris: And just the relationships you build with teammates and coaches and the life lessons of athletics were really valuable and it helps cement a lifelong practice of fitness and health that exists to this day. So, that was foundational. That was a big one. And then, later in my time at Holy Cross, my senior year, I ended up getting encouraged to run for student government. And I ended up being elected president of the senior class of 2000. Chris: And that was a really powerful experience for me, too, so having a broader role in leading fellow students and thinking about our voice on campus. And to be honest, putting myself out there more publicly to run and be elected was not something I was very comfortable with or used to. So, building up that courage and having people believe in me to do that was also really important. And I think it started to show me that maybe I could do some things that I hadn't previously been confident enough to do or thought I could do. Chris: So, that was another big experience. And same thing, balancing those commitments with academics, with athletics really prepared me for life after college and the working world. JP: That's great. Yeah. I feel like balancing all those activities, being a full-time student athlete while being the president of your class can only help you in the long run and having that structure to your schedule and balancing different activities. Because I don't play any sports, but just balancing activities week by week with the schoolwork and all that, it definitely... I feel like it can only help you for after you graduate. JP: So, yeah, going off that, I guess a little more shifting towards the academics. One of the great things about Holy Cross in liberal arts education in general is that you really have the opportunity to major in anything that piques your interest, and then go out and succeed in business or whatever field you choose. So, I know you're a psychology and art history major. Were there any specific skills that you developed from your course of study that have helped you in your professional career? Chris: Yeah, it's interesting. It was another case of I didn't know what I wanted to study. When I came to Holy Cross, I started taking a few different classes in different areas to try and understand what resonated with me and that was what attracted... the liberal arts education attracted me to Holy Cross as well because I didn't know what I wanted to do. Chris: And I found myself really intrigued in the early psychology classes that I took, whether it was Intro to Psychology, or we had some ones later, behavioral psychology and other things, that just fascinated me between the... both the science and the depth of that field, but then also the ways in which humans interact and the way in which our environment influences us just fascinated me. And I really found myself loving that. Chris: And then, on the flip side, I ended up getting a minor in art history, similarly, because I just found myself interested and passionate in the subject matter and human experience behind that. I wouldn't have thought at the time that either of those would translate into a career path or job. I wasn't going to be a psychologist. I certainly wasn't an artist, but I have found over time that I think there are some lessons in the specifics of that. Chris: And in my current job in previous iterations where I'm a fundraiser, and in essence, I sell people on City Year's mission and investing in City Year's mission, some of the experiences and the lessons from psychology come out there, and understanding how you engage and connect with and influence people. So, that is certainly there. Chris: But more broadly, I just think the liberal arts' approach and specifically Holy Cross and the rigor of the academics forced me to really get tight and concise with my thinking, with how to make an argument, with how to take in information, synthesize that and consolidate it and communicate in a really effective, clear way, both verbally, written, visually, et cetera. Those are things I lean on on a daily basis. And I don't think I appreciated it at the time. Chris: But in talking with friends and colleagues and others whose college experiences were very different, either giant lecture halls or other things, the time, the attention, the rigor of the academics was really valuable. And I don't think I realized it until much later. JP: Yeah, I agree. I feel like everyone... and that's also one of the things that drew me to the liberal arts education is the fact that people say, obviously, you study what's interesting to you, but then being able to develop those skills like critical thinking, communication, and just being able to use those skills effectively go a long way in the professional world. So, you touched on some of the activities you were involved in when you are here at Holy Cross. JP: And since you graduated, there have been a number of new programs, activities. For example, the Ciocca Center for Business, Ethics, and Society was established in 2006. Are there any programs or activities happening now that you've become aware of at Holy Cross that stand out to you or you wish were around when you were a student? Chris: I think the Ciocca Center would have been something I would have really enjoyed getting a chance to participate in. I think this idea of business and ethics and where those intersect, and how companies can have an impact on society has been the centerpiece of my career and the different jobs that I've had. So, I think I would have really enjoyed going deeper there in a more formal way, for sure. Chris: I also really appreciate what the college has done in the last few years as we think about diversity at Holy Cross and how is the Holy Cross experience accessible to all. That is, I think, one takeaway from my time. Certainly, we had some level of diversity when I was at Holy Cross, but it was not nearly what it needs to be and what it should be going forward. And I think particularly for fellow classmates that were of color or came from different backgrounds and the majority of students, I think it was a really challenging thing for them and continues to be. Chris: And so, I think the idea of having a college community that does have more representation, does have more diversity across all levels and spectrums of how diversity shows up is valuable because I think, to be honest, it creates a better learning environment, it creates better dialogue, it creates better understanding. And I think that was a challenge, to be honest, during my time at Holy Cross. Many of the students were just like me coming from the same families, communities, et cetera. Chris: And so, that's something that I've been very encouraged to see over the last few years. JP: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like as a student for me and talking to alumni like yourself and just other people I've spoken to, people just say it's awesome to see the way the college is changing for the better, both academically and socially, like you just touched on. Moving a little away from strictly Holy Cross, can you maybe run through your career or professional path starting after you graduated from the college? Chris: Yeah. So, I was really lucky, and this is an area where I talk to current students or students that are considering Holy Cross, and the network of alumni really stepped up and helped me start my career and pursue the opportunities I've had. And I've been really fortunate to come across Holy Cross graduates at every role, every organization that I've been in, which speaks to the power of even the network of a small school overall. Chris: So, I was trying to decide what I wanted to do after graduation. As we mentioned, I had done activities in track and field. I was big into sports, so I was thinking sports marketing and those areas. I also got a chance, while I was on campus, to do a couple of spring break trips via Habitat for Humanity and build some houses down in Tallahassee, Florida for two spring breaks in a row. Chris: That and an internship at the Special Olympics while I was a student started to spark my interest in having a job where I can actually give back and support causes I cared about, and earn beyond a paycheck feel like I was having an impact on a daily basis in my work. So, that was interesting to me. And we had also run and started summer orientations program, the Gateway Summer Orientation Program. Chris: I was fortunate to be part of that first summer orientation program as a leader and then later, one of the co-leads of it. And I found myself really liking and being attracted by events and the planning that would go into preparing for an orientation program or some other event, and then seeing that come together and seeing people have a great time interacting and being part of that event. So, I was looking at sports marketing. I was looking at event management. I was thinking about nonprofits and exploring different things. Chris: And I was talking with John Hayes, who's class of '91. And he was the director of Holy Cross Fund at the time. He was our advisor for our Senior Class Gift. And John said, "Hey, you should really go talk to my friend Cynthia Carton O'Brien now, a class of '93, who was working at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and the Jimmy Fund." And so, he connected me to Cindy via informational interview. I went and learn more about Dana-Farber and the Jimmy Fund, and just loved the idea of it. Chris: It was a cancer hospital, obviously in Boston, doing amazing work for patients and their families, but also had this deep connection in history to the Red Sox. So, as a sports fan, I was excited about that. And I ended up applying for a couple of different jobs there coming out of school. And on the fundraising side, one was potentially to work in plan giving, so helping people think about their giving benefiting those beyond their lifetimes and resourcing the organization for the future. Chris: And then, the other one was going to be a rotational role, which was going to work on different areas of fundraising, the Boston Marathon Jimmy Fund Walk, donor advance and stewardship events, and then also cause marketing, which at the time was a fairly new thing that companies were starting to do. And so, I ended up getting that second job on the rotation. And it was just a phenomenal opportunity experience to get to learn different parts of fundraising and to work with some really, really great team. Chris: So, when I think about advice for people coming out of school and what to think about, I think finding a job where you can learn as much as possible and get exposed to as many different things as you can certainly really worked out for me. And it gave me a chance to understand what parts of fundraising and events that I really liked and what worked well for me. And I was also really lucky to work with just some amazing people. Chris: In particular, my first boss and my first teams on the Jimmy Fund Walk, which later included a couple of Holy Cross grads in the years after me that we hired as well, was just a perfect first start into the working world, for sure. JP: Definitely. So, you may have just answered this next question, but I'll still pose it to you. I know you talked about your experience with the Gateway's orientation. So, would you say that was something that from your time at Holy Cross that greatly influenced your post-grad experience and career? Or were there few other things? Chris: Gateways did influence me mostly in that I realized that I really enjoyed working in a team environment and it was with a lot of students from across different grades that I hadn't met or didn't know before. And I think that idea of working in a team that had some diversity in their experiences, et cetera, is definitely something that's resonated longer term and I've realized leads to a great work environment and a great end product in that Gateway's orientation. Chris: I definitely love the event planning piece of it. And so, I think that steered me towards my first job, for sure. As I got older, I realized I didn't love the always on and the stress of the event planning and so I've since moved to other areas. But I think the idea of that camaraderie and coming together to build something bigger than yourselves was really valuable for me. And I also loved being able to share my experiences with others and with other students. Chris: And so, getting a chance to really talk to people and help share my experience was something that I valued. I think it was probably an early stage mentorship. I don't think I realized it at the time, but I think that's what drew me to it was being able to work with students who were coming into a Holy Cross environment, nervous about it, not sure what to do, and really saying, "Hey, this is going to be a great experience for you. And here's all the reasons why or here are some things to look at." Chris: I realized I think later that that idea of being a mentor and having that mentoring relationship is something that I really value and enjoying doing. But again, I don't think I realized it at the time. But I think it was one of those foundational things, for sure, at least in the early jobs. JP: Absolutely. Yeah, that's awesome. I feel like it's cool to think back on the different ways certain events or activities that you took or spend so much time participating in can go such a long way in your life and the decisions you made, and things like that. Chris: I think so. I think other experiences, too, that I had probably more steered in that direction of what I wanted to do for career, I think having the opportunity to do an internship during my junior year with the Special Olympics of Massachusetts and help to do the marketing and recruitment for a Polar Plunge event that they did sparked an interest in, "Oh, you can do marketing, and you can do these types of business things that I want to do that have an impact for our cause." Chris: And Special Olympics was near and dear to my heart because my mom was a special education teacher. And so, I saw firsthand the power that that can have when you have inclusive opportunities for all young people, and give them a chance to participate in athletics and have those same experiences and lessons that I did from it was really valuable. So, I think the idea and the spark of having a job that can have an impact started there. Chris: And then, I had a summer experience in between my junior and senior years at Holy Cross, where I worked in an educational camp for kids called Super Camp and spent a few weeks on a college campus working with students that were struggling academically. And what we learned in the process when you get to meet these kids and work with them is that, in most cases, it wasn't because they didn't have the ability to learn or to do those that work. Chris: It was because there were other things going on in their lives that were either being a distraction or creating additional challenges that made it hard for them to show up in the education environment or in school in the way that they could or they should. And I think that in hindsight really is why I find myself loving the work that we do at City Year right now. And it's come full circle in that way because we see that talent is absolutely equally distributed and it's everywhere, but access and opportunity are not equally distributed. Chris: So, that's part of what we get to do at City Years is to say, "How can we make sure that every student gets the opportunities that they deserve to really tap into their talent and see success in their futures?" And I think that experience at Super Camp really gave me the first understanding of what education can look like when it works for everyone. JP: Yeah, absolutely. So, while we're looking in hindsight and reflecting on your experience post-Holy Cross, I know there's a lot to say about the strength of Holy Cross's Alumni Network. Could you tell a little bit about how that network has influenced your professional career? Chris: Yeah, it's influenced my professional career because I've been lucky to work with Holy Cross grads in every step of the way in every job almost that I can think of. So, at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and the Jimmy Fund, we hired Joe Robertson, who was a track and field classmate of mine, class of '02, Rebecca Manikian in the year before, '01. So, I got to work with both of them on the Boston Marathon Jimmy Fund Walk and had a community and a shared experience with the two of them. Chris: Worked with Kristina Coppola Timmins at Cone Communications. And Rebecca and Joe also were ended up being Cone alumni at different points. And then, now, a huge number of Holy Cross grads, past and present, that I have worked through, including my current boss, AnnMaura Connolly, class of '86. So, I think at every step, I've seen Holy Cross alumni show up both in the work environment and help in the broader network. Chris: There's not a question that I would have or a connection I'd be trying to make that I couldn't reach out to somebody at Holy Cross and just say, "Hey, we share this background. Can you help?" And there's been countless times where I've had Holy Cross grads that I either know or don't know be willing to offer advice or make a connection, no questions asked and right away all the time. And I think that's fairly rare, at least in my experience. Chris: And it always surprises me how we'll be having a conversation and somebody will say, "Oh, they went to Holy Cross." It's amazing I think how people show up, particularly in the space that I'm in where you're working in the nonprofit field or in other jobs that are trying to have an impact on society. I think that's where the Jesuit teachings I think resonate for folks. And they really internalized that learning and those values, and I think it shows up in their career choices, and it certainly did for me. JP: Definitely. Yeah. Even for me as a student, I feel like something everyone can agree on is the strength of the Holy Cross alumni network. And something I always think about, even before I became a student here, just like walking around, wearing either a Holy Cross hat or that purple shirt, I was surprised and people would be surprised based on how many times you would get stopped, like, "Oh, you went to Holy Cross. I was a grad from this class." And I think that's something really special about that network. Chris: Happens all the time. And you see it in families, too. I mean, you're seeing it in your own with your sister being a grad. And I'm hopeful that my kids will end up being graduates as well. But I think you see that legacy in a lot of ways among families, among communities, where that becomes more than just an individual experience. It's a shared family experience, which is a pretty special thing. JP: Yeah, definitely. And even the fact that, like you mentioned, even just being a student, the fact that any alumni you either reach out to or you meet, they're just so willing to sit down and talk for as long as you need and give you advice or whatever the purpose is for that phone call or that meeting. They really just sit down and are willing to help in any way possible. So, I think that's something that's awesome about the college. JP: So, moving along, I think one of the great things about this podcast is that it highlights and showcases the different ways that Holy Cross mission of men and women for others can play into so many different careers and stories of different alumni. So, I guess just to start, what mission or values fuel your professional work today? Chris: Yeah. It's interesting, I think I've been fortunate to work at this intersection of companies and causes coming together to drive better business and greater good. And it's happened throughout my career and gone full circle starting on the nonprofit side at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and the Jimmy Fund and moving over to the corporate side at New Balance Athletic Shoe and later Reebok, and then now in my current role at City Year. Chris: Seeing how companies can work with nonprofits and advising some of them on how to do that, when I was at Cone Communications and advising clients on those pieces, it's just always fascinated me that you can have a social impact. And it doesn't have to just be about charity, it doesn't have to be just about volunteerism or working in a nonprofit that there's all kinds of ways in which everybody can do that individually and collectively. Chris: Companies have a tremendous opportunity and tremendous power to be able to do that. And so, for me, I realized early on through those internships, experiences that I knew I was motivated by doing something kind of more than earning a paycheck, that I wanted to see that impact. Personally, I want to have a job that at the end of the day, I could feel like we were doing something bigger. And I think that was always a core value. Chris: I think, for me, that came from my parents. I think my example was seeing my mom be a special education teacher and work with students to give them that opportunity and to address some of that inequity and make sure that education was tailored to their needs and their situation, paired with my dad who was an executive in an enterprise rent a car for his whole career, high powered, highly growing business, and getting to see that side of it. Chris: And I think those two sensibilities really steered what I was looking for and seeing it as an example. I wanted to dig into business problems. I love the how do you think deeply about that? How do you try and solve those? How do you get somebody to buy your product or support your company or do something? So, the marketing and advertising and those pieces of it were fascinating to me intellectually, but I wanted to see an impact at the same time. Chris: And so, I think I was searching for that through each role of saying, "How do we combine those two things? And how does that show up?" In my time at the Jimmy Fund, it was really good for two things. I think my first job there was working a lot with families that were participating in the Boston Marathon Jimmy Fund Walk. And what I realized really quickly was, it was such a huge crash course in empathy and in building relationships and in listening. Chris: Because in most cases, I was just helping people that were participating in the event get registered, get their team organized and set up, get the T-shirts for the event, help them with their fundraising, things like that. But in most cases, I was talking with people that were either in the midst of the worst experience of their life because they were having somebody in their family facing cancer, or they were remembering the worst experience of their life and having lost somebody to cancer. Chris: And so, I think what I found is, you'd have a lot of conversations where people would get frustrated or they'd be angry or emotional, all rightfully so because they were dealing with really hard things. And I think I learned to be able to pick up on that and to connect with them and to try and find ways to encourage and support. And I think it was just a hugely valuable early experience in saying, "How do you connect with people and how do you build relationships?" Chris: "And how do you not take for granted both your own health and good fortune, but also how you'd be there when somebody else is struggling and understand what they're dealing with? And can you lift that load in some small way?" And I certainly was not doing anything significant in that regard and in that role, but I could make their day a little bit easier or solve a problem for them, et cetera. I started to really get excited about the ability to do that. And I found that was really motivating for me. Chris: So, the idea of having a purpose and being able to help somebody in a process during that day was, I think, started to become foundational. I think it also gave me a lot of perspective. You could be having a rough day in your job or something else going on. You could walk down the hall to the Jimmy Fund clinic and see the kids there that are coming in for treatment. It puts it in perspective pretty quick on your challenges and what's tough in your life when you're seeing that with a kid. Chris: So, for me, I think it helped build an immense sense of both opportunity to have an impact but then also an immense sense of gratitude for how fortunate I was. And I think those were two foundational pieces of that experience. And then, later, the second big lesson that I learned and this sparked the longer term career path was, I started to work more with the companies that were participating in the Jimmy Fund Walk, either that were sponsoring the event in different ways or they were getting their employees actively walking and fundraising. Chris: And that gave me a different side of it. It gave me exposure to stuff that I hadn't thought of, which was why would businesses do these types of things? Why would businesses want to have some sort of impact socially, which at the time was still relatively, I wouldn't say uncommon, but it wasn't as clear and upfront as it is today. Philanthropy was something that companies did on the side. It was nice to do because they wanted to be good citizens. But it wasn't a business strategy. Chris: It wasn't something that people were asking them about on a daily basis. It wasn't something that they thought about as part of their broader work as an organization and in their community. And so, that just fascinated me was like, why would companies want to do this outside of a classic kind of capitalist structure where they just have to add value for shareholders in the old Adam Smith lessons and things like that? Chris: And what I realized was, there was so much potential and so many resources that companies could bring to bear to help solve social issues. They had incredible skill and knowledge and power behind what they were doing in a lot of cases, really sophisticated ways to do things as businesses. Two, they had amazing people that they can deploy to have an impact in different ways, whether that was volunteering their time or giving access to their customers, things like that. Chris: And then, three, they can really tell a powerful story. Many companies can reach huge numbers of people and customers in a way that nonprofits can't and don't have the dollars or the access to be able to do. So, they could raise awareness and shine a light on different issues and get people to engage and support in a way that no nonprofit could ever hope to do. And I just became fascinated by that, on what a company could potentially do to have an impact in their community. Chris: And so, I think that job gave me two foundational experiences that I think have started to show up in each of the subsequent jobs that I started to have and really got me on that path. So, I think that's where the kind of being men and women for others started to show up for me was it was like a light went on, like, "Oh, this is how I can do that. This is where I can kind of have that be part of my daily life." JP: Yeah, that's amazing. I think what stuck out to me there was the perspective that you gained and you're sharing with us today is going back to at work or at school, you could be having a really bad day and that's that. I mean, obviously, no one enjoys having a bad day and it happens. But being able to just realize that oftentimes it could be way worse, and there's people, there are children and other people struggling, and they may be having a way worse day than you, I think that's a really important perspective for people to develop and take with them day by day. Chris: Yeah, I think so. Now, we have to acknowledge that that's easy for me to do as a white male, heterosexual, affluent, man of privilege in every possible dimension you can probably think of. I've had every advantage I could possibly have. And so, I think it's easy to say, "Have gratitude and appreciate those things when your life is what my life has been." And that doesn't mean we haven't had challenges and I haven't face things that have been tough, but I think it does give you a bit of a perspective. Chris: And I think gratitude and appreciation for those advantages and those experiences I've had is something that's driven a lot of the work for me and the why. But I would say within that, it's not uncommon, people come to try to have a social impact in many ways because of either guilt or a feeling of charity, like, "This is something I should pay it back. I should give back," and I certainly did. I think that was my perspective. I've been given a lot of opportunity. Chris: I owe it to others to give back in that way. I think when you start to do the work and you start to get proximate and really work on different issues, whatever it is, whether it's education or hunger or any way in which racism shows up in all of our systems, you start to realize that you move on the scale from charity to social justice, and really saying, "This isn't about me giving back or appreciating the opportunities I've had. This is about changing a system that is not just." Chris: "And it's my responsibility to play a deeper role there and to do what I can with the resources I have to drive some change there." So, I think you move from charity to social justice as you start to get proximate and more exposed to issues. And I think Holy Cross planted the ideas behind it and the early experiences, whether it was Habitat or other areas where I could start to see and get exposed to that. Chris: But I think later in my career and particularly at City Year, I started to see that more clearly and I think that's why my career has moved more in that direction. JP: Definitely. Yeah. So, I think you also, with those remarks you made, answered the next question I had, but I wanted to just emphasize. Is there something specific that drives you to work hard each and every day? And my takeaway from all you've just said is, I feel like the common theme of impact and purpose. That's what I picked up on, just whether it's you impacting someone or something, or the company you're working for, or just being able to realize the impact that someone else is having or that greater company is having on a specific cause. JP: That was my takeaway. And I think that's awesome just from a professional standpoint, being able to live by those themes of purpose and impact. That's really great. Chris: I think that's right. I think purpose and impact is the right way to frame it. I do think about that, hopefully, every day. Am I having a purpose and am I having an impact? In the day to day, I think you don't probably get up and get out of bed and think about that immediately. But I do think, as I thought about how I want to work and what jobs I want to take and what organizations I want to be at, I think in those times of reflection, certainly grounding back into purpose and impact has absolutely been the question I asked myself. Chris: Where can I feel connected and closest to a purpose? And where can I have the greatest impact in either my experience or in an organization that's working on a really hard problem? So, certainly, when I thought about coming to City Year and in my most recent role, that's absolutely what I was thinking about is, I had missed being close to the impact in a way that I had at Dana-Farber. Chris: And even at New Balance where I was on the corporate side but working closely with a lot of our nonprofit partners, I got to see that impact on a daily basis. When I moved into Cone Communications and advising nonprofit clients and business clients on their programs and their impact, I loved it. It was mentally fascinating and rigorous and an amazing training ground on all kinds of things around strategy and marketing and communications. Chris: Really tremendous skills and experience. But I found myself too far away from the people that we were serving, and I missed that. I wanted to get closer and back to that. And I think that's what drew me back to the nonprofit side at City Year was a chance to really work among people that were having that level of idealism and impact on a daily basis. Chris: And I also felt like it was a chance to take experiences and skills that I gained from other jobs and put them to really good use in helping, so you think about how we work with companies. Yeah. And I think the working hard piece to our earlier conversation, I think the rigor of Holy Cross academically and then all the other things that I got to be involved in really built that work habit in to where you show up and you do the work every day. Chris: And I think good things happen if you consistently spend the time and put in the effort. And again, I would say I had great examples, whether it's my parents or whether it's coaches and others, that really ingrain that work ethic and constantly trying to move forward for something bigger, whether it was a team that you were part of or whether it was the organization and the issue you were trying to support. JP: Definitely. Yeah. So, I guess to shift gears a little bit here, I wanted to talk about the Boston Marathon. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you ran the Boston Marathon not once, not twice, but three times. Is that- Chris: Four actually. JP: Four, okay. So, the Boston Marathon, four times. At least in my opinion, being able to run the marathon one time is one heck of an achievement. So, could you tell me a little bit about what drove you to do that again and again and again and again? Chris: Yeah, yeah. It was working at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute really was the big thing in our first event. And that I got to work on the Boston Marathon Jimmy Fund Walk. I got exposed to the course because there was a fundraising walk along the route of the Boston Marathon. And we'd have thousands of people walk and fundraise for Dana-Farber along the route. So, I got to know the marathon course, its history. Chris: I got a really good opportunity to work with people like Dave McGillivray, the director of the Boston Marathon, and get to know him and his amazing team and learn from them. And just started to fall in love with that event. I would volunteer at the marathon and see it. And as a former track and field athlete, I wasn't a distance runner by any means, but I started to get it into my head that it would be a really challenging athletic experience. And so, that was interesting. Chris: To be honest, it was my wife that steered me in that direction. She ran the marathon first a couple of times for Dana-Farber and fundraise for them. And so, I got to see her experience doing that. And I'm kind of a competitive guy, so I decided that I wanted to do it myself. And I couldn't just let her have all the fun. So, I did, I signed up and ran for Dana-Farber. I actually got a chance to run that first marathon with my wife who, God bless her, waited for me and dragged me along those last few miles because I was struggling, and she was kind and carried me along. Chris: And then, I had a chance to do it a couple more times, which was great, including when I didn't finish, which was a huge disappointment and a physical struggle. But I got to come back in another year and completed, and it's some of my greatest memories and experiences of participating in that event and being part of fundraising for Dana-Farber, for City Year as part of that. The marathon is a really special event for Boston. Chris: And I think what you learn in that event is that people are always surprised and super like you were complimentary about being able to run that marathon. I fully believe that most people can run a marathon, and I've seen it firsthand on the course. I think what it gets to is our earlier conversation about how do you go pursue your goals and do those things. And anybody that's run a marathon can tell you that the race day is the reward. Chris: It's the thing at the end, it's the countless hours, the 16 weeks before where you're going and you're running three, four, five, six, depending on what your training schedule is, days a week. And putting in countless miles in good weather, bad weather, darkness, snow, rain, cold, your ability to get up and do that each day and keep consistently growing the mileage and keeping the training, that's what leads to the marathon and the success at the end. Chris: So, it's really about, can you do that work on a daily basis? And can you progress over time by sticking with it through the ups and the downs? And then, I was really lucky to train with great groups of people each time. And I think that's another lesson of it is, it's pretty hard thing to go train by yourself and go run a marathon by yourself. Most people that do it have done their training with a group of friends and other people that are running that helped motivate them, support them, and inspire them. Chris: And then, day off, all the people that are out there are cheering you on, supporting you, helping you get to that day. It's truly a team effort. So, I just got to get the rewards of doing it four times. JP: Yeah, that's an awesome achievement. And I have a ton of respect for you and anyone who does that. In fact, one of my buddies here at Holy Cross, Colman Benson, he's a sophomore, and he ran this past marathon. And just seeing him go through that training earlier in the fall, I'd be like, "Oh, what are you doing tomorrow?" He's like, "Oh, I'm running 12 miles in the morning, then I'm going to class." And I just think that's very impressive and definitely an awesome achievement. Chris: Yeah, it's not too late, JP. You can start training, too. JP: Yeah. So, I read in a previous interview that one of your most memorable achievements is your support of Susan G. Komen for the Cure while you're with New Balance. Can you speak a little to that? Chris: Yeah. So, after my first couple jobs at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and the Jimmy Fund, I mentioned I found myself just becoming so fascinated by what companies could do. And I realized that I really wanted to experience it from a company's perspective. I wanted to get over to that side of the work. Around that time, I also decided that I wanted to go deeper into business. I was working with companies. Chris: I was asking them to support us, but I didn't really understand business in a deep way. And so, I ended up going back to graduate school at night to get my MBA while I was working at Dana-Farber. And I ended up making the switch over to New Balance and taking a job there really that was the opposite or the flip side of what I had been doing at the Jimmy Fund. Chris: So, instead of asking companies to support us and asking them to sponsor and have their employees participate in our events, and have an impact in that way, I was helping to guide New Balance's investment in different nonprofits in the community and thinking about how we showed up with our dollars, with our products, with our people to support those efforts. And so, the job was to manage what New Balance called their cause marketing work at the time. Chris: I sat in the marketing department at New Balance. I was measured in the same ways that other marketers were on driving awareness of New Balance's brand, consideration of our product and trying on footwear and apparel and things like that, and then ultimately sales of that product, which was great. And I loved it because I got a chance to really get into the marketing and science of that, which was fascinating, and do it at a brand and in a field of athletic footwear and apparel that I was personally passionate about as a runner and as an athlete. Chris: So, best of both worlds there. And it was just a great opportunity to take what I knew from the nonprofit side and bring that sensibility into the corporate environment into how we showed up and work with our nonprofit partners, whether it was Susan G. Komen for the Cure or Girls on the Run, which was our other major partner. And I just loved it. And I think that really crystallized, this is the career path for me. Chris: I can work with cool products and in areas that I really liked, but I can have an impact in that way. And it just opened my eyes to what was possible for companies. New Balance was such a special place because it was a privately held, family-owned company, had a tremendous number of people that I worked there for years. It really felt like a community of people in ways that the Jimmy Fund and Holy Cross actually felt very similar to me, and that's what I loved about being there at the time. Chris: And we got to do some really cool things, whether it was working on all the different Komen events. I had a chance to meet Joe Biden, President Biden, when he was vice president at the time at an event for Komen and New Balance, which was amazing. We got to do great things, marketing our products, and attending different events, and meeting celebrities. I went on The Ellen Show to give away million dollars for breast cancer research and got to have the big chat out there and hand that to Ellen. Chris: So, amazing, unique experiences that I wouldn't have other ever anticipated getting a chance to do as a result of that job. It's a really special company. And later, I got a chance to really go deep and work with Girls on the Run after my time at New Balance. After I left New Balance, I had a chance to join the board of Girls on the Run and serve on their board and chair their board for a few years. Chris: And to get to work with that amazing nonprofit that focuses on women's leadership development and girls empowerment through a running curriculum and really social-emotional skill building curriculum was just an amazing experience to, again, work for another world-class nonprofit and get a chance to see it grow. So, another really fortunate opportunity for me. JP: Yeah, that's incredible. That seems like such an overall special, I guess, group of things that you got, meeting the president and going on The Ellen Show. That's awesome. So, I guess, it seems like it's hard to top those experiences. But has anything changed in terms of your most memorable milestone since then in your career? Chris: I think you start to look at what are the skills and experiences and most importantly, the relationships you build over your career. And each of those are really cool memories and experiences. But I think what matters is the relationships that you start to have and build over time. So, when I think about those different jobs, it's more about the people that I got a chance to work with and get to learn from. Chris: And I think City Year as my current job and organization now for the last eight years, that's what I start to think about and focus on is how have I gotten the chance to work with and learn from really great people, and continued. I think, even in this kind of midway through my career and later in my career, I feel like I'm still learning and growing on a daily basis, and getting better both at what I do tangibly functionally in my work. Chris: But also as a manager, as a boss, as a co-worker, as a parent, I think you start to pick up those lessons. And I think for City Year in particular, it's by far the most powerful place that I've ever seen as far as helping people really build connection to one another and to help us really explore who we are and how do we show up as our full selves at work on a daily basis. And how do we do that for other people, whether it's our co-workers or whether it's the students we work with in the schools we serve in. Chris: I think that's the amazing lesson and opportunity of City Year. So, I would say I hope I haven't hit the highlights of the careers. I got a lot of work left to do. And I think we've got a lot more to accomplish and learn. So, I'm excited about that. JP: Definitely. The best is yet to come. All right. So, now, to shift over, I know earlier, you talked about the idea of cause marketing and how that plays into your career. And I know that's been around for quite some time now and is becoming increasingly popular and being leveraged by businesses and nonprofits. So, for those who are listening who might not know a lot about it, could you speak a little about cause marketing and what that means to your career, past, present and future? Chris: Yes. It's interesting, you've seen a real change over the decades in how companies think about their responsibility and impact to society. And early on, it was very much about volunteerism and employees coming out doing different things. Or it might be about the company writing a check and the CEO handing it over to an organization. There wasn't really a business strategy. It was, "Hey, we recognize we're part of this community. We want to support our community and we find ways to do that." Chris: And then, what you started to see late into the '90s, early 2000s is companies started to read realize this could actually have a deeper business impact. People want to support companies that are doing good things in their communities. And we can tell that story via our marketing, our public relations efforts, via sponsorships and other things, kind of classic marketing and sales approaches. And so, they started to integrate cause into that. Chris: And so, you start to see opportunities like buy this product, we'll donate XYZ. And then, you started to see buy one, give one like TOMS and other new models of cause marketing come in. But in the early days, it was still very much kind of a business strategy using cause to drive it. So, it was, "We know people care about this cause. And if we talk about being associated with it, it would get them to buy our product or get them to take this action." Chris: And what we've seen over the last decade plus is that's really evolving and going deeper. I think what we started to see, particularly when I was working at Cone Communications and advising clients, we started to say, "What's unique about your company and the work that you do, the industry that you're in, the expertise that you have? And how could you connect your philanthropy to an issue that is aligned with your business?" Chris: "So, if you're in the pharmaceutical industry or other areas, how do you align with health and determinants of health? If you're working in other areas, like cable and telephone and others, how do you think about connectivity and digital connectivity being something that you can provide and connect to?" And so, how do you align the strategy and the impact you can have with your business so that those two things are working in harmony in reinforcing one another? Chris: And so, I think there was an understanding that it can actually drive business. And it's not just a nice thing to do that's over on the side, it's an important strategy to drive business. And so, during my time at New Balance and Cone and later at Reebok, I think we were more in that era of saying, "How do we integrate it into the business? And how do we really see it as a unique business driving strategy?" Chris: Now, I think you're in an even different environment, both with young people like yourselves coming into work and into the environment and being aware of social issues in a way that is deeper and more common than I think it was maybe of my generation and earlier, really wanting to have a purpose at work, and looking at your companies and saying, "How are you helping me do that?" And I only want to be here if I'm having a chance to put my passion and my values front and center in a way that was different than I think previous generations thought about work. Chris: And then, two, I think we're realizing, particularly over the last two years with the pandemic, with the murder of George Floyd, certainly the cracks in our system and how it is not equitable, how racism really shows up across all kinds of dimensions to prevent others from having opportunity that they should, and saying, "That's not okay." And people are saying, "We expect to both individually have an opportunity to affect that." Chris: "And we expect companies to be vocal and to step up and to show what their values are. And if you're not, then that's not going to be a company that I'm going to invest my time in personally as an employee. Or I'm not going to invest my dollars in as a customer." And I think you're seeing a whole new era of companies leading and being vocal in a lot of ways around social issues and taking a stand. Chris: And if they're not, people kind of questioning what's going on and why not. So, I think it's been really impressive and powerful to see. There's a lot that still needs to be done, right? There's a tremendous amount of inequity even within companies. And we see examples every day of bad behavior or other things that companies need to do better and need to do differently. Chris: But I will say, in working with many different Fortune 100 companies on a daily basis, the understanding of issues, the way they talk about social issues, the way they talk about their own diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging efforts within the company is a huge sea change compared to what I saw even five, 10 years ago, which gives me a lot of hope for where we're going. I think we're realizing that capitalism is an amazing system of value creation. It's done tremendous things to grow and build our company. Chris: And the kind of American dream did a tremendous number of things, certainly for my family and many others, but that that's no longer the case for everyone and it probably never was, to be honest. And so, how do we own that and how do we address that? And I think companies are wrestling with that in a more authentic way. And I hope they continue to do that. It's part of what I think my life's work is, is to try and help companies do that. JP: Yeah, definitely. I feel like that, in my opinion, that idea of cause marketing is something that's... I feel like that's got to be something that's just going to become, I guess, take over in terms of marketing. And just seeing it present today, I guess I've been seeing it firsthand with the new Worcester Red Sox at Polar Park in terms of sports marketing. Their whole thing is... I think the program is like In Debt to a Vet. JP: So, they're marketing that product of going to the game and all. And then, every strike out at home, they donate X amount of money to veterans. And then, they also have just other organizations like fighting food insecurity and things like that. So, I feel like I've just been learning more and more about that. And I feel like that's got to be something like revolutionary in terms of marketing and business today. Chris: Yeah. And do you find yourself deciding who to buy from and who to work with as a result of that? Do you see it show up in the decisions you make? JP: Yeah. Definitely, I feel like these days, I see, even buying clothing and things like that, some... off the top of my head, I can't think of any. And shoes too, especially I've been seeing. They advertise the materials they make their shoes out of and stuff like that. And X percent of the money they take in goes to this cause or that cause. So, yeah, I've definitely been seeing it become more and more present today. Chris: I think it's true. I think as a marketer, and I don't even like the term cause marketing anymore because it feels so transactional, and we're well beyond that. I mean, it is a strategy that is useful and valuable, and company should still do. But I think what you've seen is now that you interact with a company and their products and a brand all the time, whether it's in social media or online or in other places, it used to be such a tightly controlled thing. Chris: You kind of created a marketing message, you put it out there in a campaign. You spent weeks developing it and controlling the advertising message and putting it out there. That's just not how we market and how customers engage anymore. It's year round, minute to minute brand building and engagement. It's a very different thing. And so, what you've seen is companies have to evolve to respond to that and say, "Okay, we need to be talking about not just cause marketing, but it's about what are our values." Chris: "And how do those show up in every action that we do, because it's not just the messaging that we put out from a marketing or an advertising standpoint. It's how somebody experienced us in the store, or an interaction they had with an employee, or something our CEO said, or some way they experienced our product." And it's 24-7-365. And so, I think you're seeing companies really say, "This is about our values, and being clear on what our values are." Chris: Because our most important stakeholders, our people are saying that that's what matters to them and that's what they care about. And so, I think we just think about business differently. JP: Absolutely, yeah. And actually, even aside from just that marketing aspect, the whole idea of impact investing and companies just needing to evolve now based on ESG and sustainability and things like that, it's just becoming more and more just the norm. And I feel like more and more businesses have no choice but to evolve and match what other businesses are doing because that's such a pressing topic in today's time as well. Chris: A hundred percent. And you have to, to compete, to succeed. And all the data tells you that companies that invest and do deep things and are high performing when it comes to the environmental, social, and governance measures outperform other companies and succeed. So, it's not just a nice thing to do, an important thing to do for the planet, a good thing to do. It's an imperative. If you want to continue to build a business and have it thrive, you have to lean in those areas. JP: Definitely. So, could you speak about the back and forth relationship you've seen between business and nonprofits throughout the span of your professional career? Chris: Absolutely. That's a great question. I think to our earlier conversation, early on, I think it was more transactional. It was kind of checkbook philanthropy. And we developed some relationships, and hopefully we get some money. And what we've seen, certainly in my time at City Year and why I was excited to come to City Year and work on it, is that changed. And companies were increasingly looking at a much deeper and holistic way to support issues. Chris: And so, they wanted certainly the branding and the visibility, and being able to talk about themselves as being good citizens, and for nonprofits to help validate and help them have opportunities to do that. They wanted to have employees actively volunteering and spending time, whether that was doing different kind of done-in-a-day volunteer projects or weeks of service, days of service, things like that. Chris: Or deeper ongoing skills-based volunteerism where I can share my expertise in marketing or somebody can share their expertise in web design or other things with the nonprofit and help that nonprofit build its capabilities or its skills. And really being able to set ambitious goals, which is what we're seeing a lot of companies do now, and to say, "This is what we care about from a social impact standpoint. Here's how we're going to try and have some impact. And here's some ways we're going to hold ourselves accountable and measure against it." Chris: And so, now, nonprofits are more partners in that process. And certainly, there's a dynamic of where the dollars come. And we certainly are trying to raise money from companies and have contractual pieces of what we do. But in many ways, we're sitting at the table with our corporate partners, and they view us as experts in the space that help them, at least for City Year, understand education, understand urban education, understand racial issues and how those show up in the education space, and are looking for our help and our guidance on how they can have a deeper impact. Chris: And we often think collaboratively and advise and coach them on some of the things they're thinking about. And in many cases, they can offer tremendous support to help us do different things. We've been fortunate to work with Deloitte Consulting as an example at City Year for decades now, and have benefited from having pro bono case teams and others really come and think about how do we grow City Year as an organization. Chris: So, I would say it's much less of a transactional thing and much more of a collaborative partnership, which has been amazing to see. And I think that's the part that I've been fortunate to have worked on the nonprofit side, the corporate side, the agency side, and seeing that from all angles that I think it hopefully helps me be a better partner to our colleagues. But I think there's such a willingness to say, "These are huge social issues that cannot be solved by any individual nonprofit, any individual organization." Chris: And we have to come together and figure out how we work collectively on them to change them. So, I think the level of expertise sharing, information sharing, and collaboration is greater than it's ever been. So, I'm excited about that. JP: Cool, yeah. Thank yo

In this special episode of the Path to Well-Being in Law podcast to celebrate Well-Being Week in Law, Chris and Bree sit down with Institute for Well-being in Law VP of Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion Lindsay Draper. Transcript: CHRIS NEWBOLD: Hello Well-being friends and welcome to the first podcast of 2022. This is the Path To Well-Being In Law podcast, an initiative of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. I'm your co-host Chris Newbold, executive vice president of ALPS malpractice insurance. And boy, we've had a lot of fun on the podcast over the course of the last year. I think we just hit our 20th episode and, as most of our listeners know, our goal is to introduce you to thought leaders in the well-being movement doing meaningful work within the legal profession and in the process, we're really working hard to build and nurture a national network of well-being advocates intent on creating a culture shift within the profession. And as always, Bree, we have been together from the beginning. We've done all of our podcasts together. We've not had to had a guest co-host yet. So I'm certainly thankful as we begin the new year to embark on what's really the year three because I think we got started late in- BREE BUCHANAN: That's right. CHRIS: ... 2019, right? BREE: Yeah. CHRIS: And Bree, how are you doing? How were your holidays? BREE: Absolutely wonderful. And yeah, it's just amazing that we are starting our third year of the podcast and I've had so many great guests. I hope the listeners can go back and see the different really thought leaders in the well-being and law space. And the idea of trying to sort of capture what they're thinking, capture trends, and be able to share that among what we really see with the institute is a growing body of people throughout the legal profession who are really passionate about addressing these issues and promoting well-being across the board. And so, we see this as an opportunity to cross-pollinate with ideas and share what's going on. So delighted to be here again and happy new year, everybody. CHRIS: Yeah. What I'm excited about... One of the things I'm excited about is just how our movement has grown in terms of the people that have been welcomed into the movement over the course of the last year. I think that's going to really prove to be exciting from a speaker perspective, as we bring on more guests in 2022. And one of the things... Super excited to kick off 2022 with a three part series in an area that frankly is probably overdue, but something that's critically important as we've thought about where well-being ultimately goes. And that's the intersection of diversity, equity and inclusion with well-being. And so, this will mark the first of three episodes that we focus specifically on that issue because, again, I don't know that you can really differentiate one from the other. And as we all know, if you've met one lawyer, you've met one lawyer and we're all on our individual journey as human beings, right? And there are some really, I think, interesting intersections with diversity, equity and inclusion. I know that we're very excited to kick off the new year with our friend Lindsey Draper to the podcast. If you would take a couple minutes and introduce Lindsey, I know that we're just thrilled to have him as our first guest. BREE: Absolutely. And I love working with Lindsey. I think the most important thing on his bio is that he's on our board of directors. And so, Lindsey has been pulling a major laboring oar with us over the past year plus to really get the institute off the ground and running. And so, Lindsey serves on our board of directors. He is the vice president of diversity, equity and inclusion. And so, just a little bit of background for Lindsey. This is where we make him blush a little bit, but as the Milwaukee County Court Circuit Court Commissioner, he oversaw Wisconsin's adherence to the mandates of the Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention Act as a state's disproportionate minority contact coordinator and compliance monitor. And that was just the day job. And then he retires and goes on to serve in a variety of leadership roles. He served as chair of the ABA standing committee on client protection, which is how I originally met Lindsey and his work in that role. He's currently the chair of the board of directors of the St. Charles Youth and Family Services in Milwaukee. He's been in the past a director at large of the National Client Protection Organization, and as a liaison to the Wisconsin Task Force on Lawyer well-being. And not just a liaison, I'm looking at his bio understates his involvement. Lindsey was really key in the efforts to get that work up and moving. So, Lindsey welcome today. And I'm going to start off by asking you a question we all ask all of our guests at the very beginning to talk to us about... To say hi, but then also talk to us, what are the experience in your life that may be a driver behind your passion for the work that we're doing here at the institute? And I just want to hear a little bit about that. So, Lindsey, welcome to the podcast. LINDSEY DRAPER: Well, first off, Bree and Chris, thank you very much for having me. I'm excited to be here and I want to start with... And part of why I'm excited is that I don't want anyone to miss how much the institute has made diversity, equity and inclusion a focus of the work that is done. One of the things that I recall from the first moment that I was asked about possibly serving in the role of vice president for DEI, one of the things I recall was at the point that I indicated that it was going to be a learning curve for me, because most of my work had been local. It had been in the state of Wisconsin. I was a government employee most of that early part of my career. And then the part that was on the national basis was with the National Client Protection Organization. I needed to learn a lot about what the well-being work involved. Obviously, I saw that the report that the task force did, I initially was the liaison from the National Client Protection Organization. And the reason I had to start with all of that talk was in the work with the National Client Protection Organization, I got the chance to see what happens when lawyers are not healthy. We were involved in trying to make good to people who trusted lawyers. And a large part of that involved clients who were people of color, people who were immigrants, people who were frankly underserved by the legal community. And as I got the chance to see who the victims were and the people who lost, I also came to understand that a number of the lawyers, who frankly messed up, weren't ill intentioned. Many of them had struggles. So, it was having had a number of years working with the standing committee on client protection, working with Wisconsin's committee, that I got the chance to see how important it is for clients that lawyers be healthy. And obviously starting with having been in law school, I've been a part of the legal community. So just watching those areas meant a lot to me. And frankly, by virtue of being African-American, I've seen what difference it makes in various places, whether it's having people in law school assume that I got in as part of an affirmative action outreach. Having people in various parts of the legal community make some assumptions over time that there were limited abilities, I guess. I got the chance to see the impact that, excuse me, underrepresented communities have in the profession and how long term micro and macro-aggressions can have impact on well-being. So, those were all of the things that contributed to why I'm so excited about being part of this. CHRIS: Great perspective. And Lindsey, as you know, diversity, equity and inclusion is such a, I think, vital issue now at the forefront of our profession and frankly, the country at the moment. And even when you go back to our originating report that served as a catalyst to the movement, it's interesting in retrospect to go back and see that there really wasn't a lot of discussion in that report about diversity, equity and inclusion. And obviously as events in society in the summer of 2020 brought this to the forefront, we really can't now put well-being and law in a silo without considering how diversity. equity and inclusion intersects that. And I'm just kind of curious in your mind, how do they intersect and how do you look at that? LINDSEY: Well, there's several pieces. And I think you start with... The question you just asked is a huge part of the answer to the question. There are a number of incredibly well-meaning people who when you point out, "By the way, this didn't get addressed or not a lot of attention got paid to this," are surprised because it didn't occur that the issue of diversity, equity, inclusion played nearly the role that it does. That I don't think a lot of times we are aware. And I frankly need to include myself in part of this discussion. Very early in the role that I had as DEI vice president, I talked with other members of the board, and after having explained what it was that I saw as the goals and after having talked about some of the paths that I would like to see the institute take, I got asked, "Lindsey, do you see this as mainly an issue for people of color?" And it was a whole matter of, "You do know that you never talked about gender in what you were saying." As time has passed, and as I have gotten more and more personally aware of how big the conversation needs to be, it's also become much more important that this not just be a matter of bringing people to the table, but also a continuing dynamic discussion of how do we make sure that the people we have brought to the table stay there, but also feel valued and included as part of the discussion? BREE: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that it's incumbent upon all of us to pay attention to that. I think about making it where people can stay there and people feel comfortable, valued, welcome in the profession, and that's for everyone. And I also think about it. The issue in regards to particularly well-being, the issue of sustainability in that, how do you make this a profession that everybody can be a part of for a long time because... And I am presented as a white, cisgendered woman, so I have to listen a lot and try to learn, but what I hear and I can certainly understand is the incessant microaggressions that occur in our society and in our profession wears one down. Of course, it would. And it impacts that ability to stay, to work, to make this a sustainable profession for people. Is that something that you see too, Lindsey? LINDSEY: That's a very large part of the conversation. One of the things that I think gets missed sometimes in looking at how people can rise in the profession or how people can stay, is what happens. And the example that was brought to my attention by an attorney in Madison, Wisconsin, had to do with how often he walked into the courtroom, and the very first thing that got said sometimes by bailiffs, sometimes by clerks was as he approached the bench to register or sign in, was wait till your lawyer gets here. The automatic assumption, "You've got to be the defendant. You have to have a lawyer." No opportunity for anybody to learn who this person was. And that's a common experience. The reason that it came up was this was a person who was leaving the legal profession, just simply feeling, "I can't take this anymore." BREE: Wow. LINDSEY: One of the things that happens and depending... My career for the most part was in the juvenile justice system and sometime part of it in criminal justice system, but one of the things that happens there is over time, people learn who you are. If you are in a different part of the system where people don't know who you are, it becomes that much easier for people to make assumptions simply based on having seen you. That, "Oh, you must be the defendant. You must have a lawyer coming to help you out." The other part that... I know people do and say things meaning to be complimentary, but there's a point that you get tired of hearing how well spoken you are or how well you put together a brief. BREE: Oh my Lord. LINDSEY: Where people are surprised that you're competent. And if you stop to think about how over time that regularly occurring beats you down, then you understand why sometimes when you start the discussions that say, "Let's work on DEI," you have some lawyers who say, "I'm tired of educating people. Why are we not talking about making sure I'm healthy?" BREE: Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the things too, also Lindsey, I was thinking in preparation for this podcast, I'm talking to you today is when I go out and do... Because I have a day job and I do speaking on just lawyer well-being issues. And I've really tried to... Have started in the past year and a half to include some discussion on diversity, equity and inclusion. And the piece that I folded into is around kind of unpacking the eye of DEI, the inclusion piece. And the idea of that there's a tremendous amount of scientific research that for people who are excluded and there's a phrase called thwarted belongingness, that that has documented real negative mental health outcomes. And it's really striking to me to hear that. And I think there's nothing for me, personally, that I think is more painful as the idea of being excluded of being kept out of the circle of where things happen. LINDSEY: Yes. BREE: And what an incredibly painful place that is. And I just remember in an early conversation, Lindsey, you and I had, and you talked a little bit about just putting it in very real basic terms about being able to feel welcome in a space. Are you made to feel welcome? And that's a real basic phrase that any human can understand and to not have that... I mean, that just... When you talked about that, I just remembered it cracked my heart open because... And was a real just light bulb for me because I felt I got it on a feeling level. It was just really powerful. Anyway, just thinking about the idea around inclusion, exclusion, and how painful that can be and the damage it can cause over time. LINDSEY: So one of my favorite slides whenever I get the chance to do a presentation is the inclusion slide that says equity is being invited to a party. Inclusion is being asked to dance. That one of the things that's important is not only to be present because you can be present in a whole bunch of places where you're not particularly welcome, frankly, or where people don't necessarily respect what you've got to say. Being marginalized is, I think, the term that for a long time was used to describe what happens. That is that if the discussions at the meeting rarely include any opportunity for what you have to say or what you may think or how certain policies may impact, not just you, but others who have some of the same views than you over time... Well, first off, you start looking, why am I here? Because there's a point that the good salary or, I don't know, the window in your office doesn't carry nearly the weight as, "Oh good Lord. I don't want to go to work today." And so, that's an important piece. Let me go back to something though, Bree. And I want to be sure we talk about one other issue that was part of the inclusion part. And that's the piece that says we have to recognize that all of the issues, and this is part of what I was starting on when I mentioned having had the gender issue brought to my attention. When we're talking about inclusion, there are some parts that we really do see a lot more now than we always did. And for instance, the LGBTQ+ community is one that we at least recognize a bit more. Disabilities are one of the areas that we have to be careful on because part of what... Disabilities, sometimes, they're not just physical. That in the Wisconsin task force, I was reminded that some mental health issues, people who have certain diagnoses who are able to function quite well as lawyers and to be really good lawyers, but sometimes there are some assumptions that get made if in fact anyone knows that I'm being treated for the following. So, I do want to be sure that when we are having this conversation, and that's why the marginalized part of this discussion is important to me, we also recognize that we as lawyers, and frankly, we as people who are trying to be sensitive to the issue, have to be open to the fact that we still don't see everybody at times and don't see the impact of some decisions we make... The open bar, for instance, at state bar conferences is an example that I think we all think of. We sometimes forget the number of golf outings that accompany our events and the bonding time. Not everybody can go to the golf outing or not everybody has interest in it. Sometimes the lack of wanting to drink isn't just a matter of having concerns about substance abuse. Sometimes it has to do with religious reasons. Sometimes it's just health related. So, there are a lot of things that... And the reason that I say the whole well-being issue and DEI issue has to be dynamic, has to be continuous. CHRIS: Well, Lindsey, I think that's a good transition to kind of this. How do we influence leaders and all of our brethren, I guess, in the profession that if you care about well-being, you have to care about diversity, equity and inclusion? And it is about this dynamic continuousness that kind of goes hand in hand. I'd love to hear your perspective on why these are inextricably linked if we're really searching for progress. LINDSEY: Well, first of all, we have to bear in mind that lawyers have clients. We have people that we serve and many of those are people from underrepresented or diverse communities. And it's important to know the perspectives, to know the lives, to know the interest, to know the... I don't know, the well-being and what is in the best interest of the people we serve. Secondly, there's a huge amount of information and perspective that comes. That sometimes there are ways of approaching problems, ways of approaching issues, ways of looking at how do we grow as a profession, how do we improve as a profession that can be better off if we hear different voices. And I think one of the things that at times we forget is that as much as we and the profession may have succeeded because we have a certain outlook and a certain determination, we might have done better if we had included others and if we had looked to what others had to say. The notion that we are a healthy profession, but we don't take into account the well-being of some of our members is one that pretty much contributes to things like the aging of the profession. CHRIS: Let's do this. Let's take a quick break here from one of our sponsors and we're joined by Lindsey Draper out of Wisconsin. And let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. — Advertisement: Meet VERA, your firm's Virtual Ethics Risk Assessment guide developed by ALPS. VERA's purpose is to help you uncover risk management blind spots from client intake to calendaring, to cybersecurity and more. VERA: I require only your honest input to my short series of questions. I will offer you a summary of recommendations to provide course corrections if needed and to keep your firm on the right path. Generous and discreet, VERA is a free and anonymous risk management guide from ALPS to help firms like yours be their best. Visit vera@alpsinsurance.com/vera. — BREE: Welcome back everybody to our podcast. And today we have Lindsey Draper of Wisconsin who is, among many other things, the vice president of diversity, equity and inclusion on our board of directors for the institute. And so, we've been having some really meaningful conversation here in the first half, and I want to... For me, it's been really sort of an interior reflection type of comments and discussion. And I want to move a little bit externally. And so, Lindsey, have you seen out in a legal profession, diversity initiatives that you think are making an impact and any that, quite frankly, aren't? LINDSEY: Okay. So, it's possible to give you a short answer, and that would be yes, but what I want to talk about... And I've mentioned earlier that a lot of what has happened since I've been a part of, first, the task force, and then the institute has been the learning curve for me. And so, one of the pieces that I want to talk about comes from having worked with the Wisconsin task force. And that is when we started looking at who are the people who contribute to the profession and what roles they play. The reason I wanted to start with that is because wonderful work has been being done at law schools. And considering how very much law schools not only have to work with people who are under stress anyway, trying to get into the profession, worried about the fitness question that's going to get examined when they try and get admitted, worried about the interviews for placement. That if you bring to those communities also issues where they're confronted with the questions, do you really belong here? Do you fit in? That I have been just really incredibly impressed with some of the work that law schools have done to recognize that not only do we have students under stress that just as lawyers under stress sometimes resort to some ways that involve unhealthy habits. Law students do as well. And those law students have a great reluctance to ask for help. We're supposed to be the type A achiever. And to admit the need for help is to admit a weakness that most don't want to admit. So what I've seen in schools, and I got the chance to see both what, for instance, the University of Wisconsin did and what Marquette did. Marquette, actually, had a law student who had some substance abuse problems who made not only public his fight, but also the things that he did. And that same story can be replicated at a number of law schools. Some of the members of our committee are actually from law schools. So, I want to start with, I have been extremely impressed with the work that a number of law schools have, including recognizing that it would be important to bring people from those governmental entities that will decide if you get admitted to the bar to say, "You need to address what will keep you healthy. We will work with you. We want you to be a healthy lawyer." As opposed to, "We're looking for reasons to not let you in." That's such a critical message for law schools to get across early is, do not be afraid to seek help. Get it before you hurt yourself, your client, and the profession. So that would be one of the things that I think is important on a governmental area. We at the institute have the incredible benefit of having service from representative from Massachusetts. Looking at the work that they have. Looking at people who have developed not only an interest and a commitment to diversity, equity, inclusion, and well-being, but also embedded in their work. People who have this focus. So, I look to the state of Massachusetts because, frankly, a lot of what I personally have been able to learn and do came from patterning after a lot of what they did. So, there are a number of places. There are a number of states that were leaders. You can't overlook the work that Virginia did, but in looking at DEI, those would be two things. One is a huge amount of respect for law schools. Secondly, looking at states like Massachusetts. CHRIS: Lindsey, is that because of the advancements made in welcoming conversation around challenges that those individuals in law school or in states ultimately feel? I mean, is it a cultural component because, obviously, there's admission related issues as well and other areas? So, it kind of feels to me that... Again, going back to this feeling welcomed in the space of becoming a lawyer, being licensed as a lawyer, being welcomed into the courtroom, how you're perceived. It seems to go back to that notion of how we start the process is critically important to a cultural evolution that if it continues can only benefit both the profession and the way that the profession is seen. LINDSEY: So, I think my answer to that would be, again, sort of twofold. And just sort of bear in mind that there is... And I touched on it a second ago. There is no single African-American lawyer, African-American female lawyer, gay African-American female lawyer. I mean, that there are so many different parts of who people are. And one of the things that happens over the course of life is you develop sensitivities to things. And there are frankly people who look for aggression, but there are also people who recognize when it's happening. Well, if you just start with that, and then you realize that you've got a culture in the legal profession, and you've got some decisions that people have to make. And where I'm going with this is if, for instance, you have a law firm that welcomes a member of an underrepresented group into the firm and decides we want you here, and here's your case. And that person ends up getting treatment for substance abuse, for instance. Does the firm run the risk in not letting the client know? Have you shared some information you weren't supposed to share? If you don't, have you not done the right thing by your client? And then if the attorney hears or feels that he or she is being undercut, I think the normal first response is going to be because I'm African-American or because... And you think about how many different questions arise under the circumstances. That's why the commitment to the whole "D", the whole "E", and the whole "I" is critical. Because there are a lot of questions that are going to arise and a lot of decisions that are going to have to be made all the way along. You can't be human without having some things happen in your life. You're not going to be perfect your whole life. And you just need to be sure that when we take a look at the decisions that get made, they're made in a comfortable environment. CHRIS: Lindsey, as vice president of diversity, equity and inclusion for the institute, talk a little bit about... Again, it's been a journey thus far, right, in terms of including more perspectives. And I'd love for you to expand on some of the areas that you see the group kind of laying out part of its strategic plan to ensure that there again is a connectedness between these two issues that we know is real and only if we work on them in conjunction, will we see even stronger progress. LINDSEY: Well, you actually raised a significant part there when talking about the strategic plan because among the things that happens, the more people you have on a committee, the more different ideas you have, the more different areas of focus that you're going to have. But one of the things that's been really critical... And I really do have to say how proud I am to be part of the institute, and the institute has made a conscious effort to say, "We may have messed up in not looking at some things from the beginning," but we want to do that. The committee has made a big point of saying, "We can help the other parts of the institute if we know what they're doing before everybody's way down the road, if we can be part of helping frame the questions get asked." And an example of what I am discussing, one of the things the committee has said is, I've looked at the panels presenting at various entities or various programs, I don't see a whole lot of underrepresented people on these panels. Part of what the committee has is the ability to help the institute because the institute has said, "Give us some names. Help identify people who are very capable, who are very knowledgeable, but who haven't had the opportunity to show that." That's why, for instance, where you've had members who've been active in presenting conferences, they know some speakers that maybe others don't know. They know some people who've done research that maybe others haven't seen. So, not only making sure that there are diverse voices in the decisions of the institute and in the work of the institute, but also making sure that we are looking for other capable, accomplished people who can bring not just a different perspective, but also an incredible expertise to the work that we're all doing. CHRIS: Bree, you might be on mute. BREE: Oh. CHRIS: There you go. BREE: So I think we may have just found our first time when we have to edit. [inaudible 00:39:37]. CHRIS: [inaudible 00:39:39]. Let's just keep going. Let's keep going, Bree. We're good. BREE: Sorry. My voice has given out. [inaudible 00:39:47] just take a moment here. I was thinking that we would move towards sort of wrapping up just because of the time. CHRIS: Lindsey, I'd love for our final question to be just, I guess, a reflection point, right, of you've seen a lot of activity in this arena, right. We're clearly not where we need to be. Although I think in some respects we are more readily talking about some of the challenges in a much more robust way than ever before, but I'd love for you to just give your perspective on your outlook for the future. Are you optimistic? Is the tenor of the discussion moving in ways that has you excited, cautiously optimistic, fearful, right? So, I would just love for you to kind of give us as we kind of conclude this podcast, your perspective, as we think about well-being, as we think about challenges of diversity, equity and inclusion, as we see those kind of coming together, what do you think? What's your sense of where we currently stand and where we're going? LINDSEY: We have to start with, I'm incredibly optimistic. There's a part of me that's incredibly grateful that we're having this conversation, that there was a time when we were not. That as more and more people become aware that well-being, which everybody seems to be comfortable with, that's an important piece, affects different people differently, and it's important that well-being go across the board, that all lawyers be able to address well-being and the way that they address it isn't the same. We're talking about that, but more than just talking about it, the fact that there is an effort being made to identify, not just that there's a problem, but to offer steps that people can take to try and address the problem. I carefully avoided the word "solutions" because that's hard to say. Our profession is constantly evolving. There are things from left field, the pandemic, for example, that no one would anticipate that have impact on well-being of lots of people, affect some communities more than others and in different ways. So, I feel really good that we are having the discussion. I am somewhat worried that DEI is a term that sometimes people say, "Okay. We have to do that. Everybody's got to have that discussion. Everybody's got to have that committee." I worry a bit that just like the assumptions got made about affirmative action a half century ago that DEI may become the... Oh, yes. We have to have that conversation. But that's why I've been really thrilled to be part of the institute where, "No, this is not item seven on the agenda," and we'll talk about it after we get all the business of the day taken care of. That it's been something that from the very beginning, the institute has said, this is a priority. And the fact that there's an effort made to keep it there. So, be cautiously optimistic, but also really pleased that we're having the conversation and that we've been able to identify so many, very talented, valuable, committed people who are working on the area. CHRIS: Yeah. And I think that's a great way to end, I think, this podcast is again, how influential you, your committee has been at looking to shape the perspectives that are coming in to ultimately building the movement and setting the tone for the culture shift that I think that we are all yearning for, which is to make well-being a centerpiece of professional success in the profession. From my own perspective, we all have to be more sensitive to some of the challenges. And as we allocate resource bandwidth as an institute, just being mindful that... Again, going back to... If you met one lawyer, you've met one lawyer and we're all on our own individual journeys as human beings. And some of those challenges are markedly, markedly different for some relative to others. Lindsey, a heartfelt thank you for, again, your leadership, your work, your vision, your vulnerability, in terms of being able to say, "I don't know at all, but I'm certainly going to lean in with my perspectives and I'm going to learn along the way," because I know that you're in a learning journey, I'm in a learning journey, Bree's in a learning journey, right, of- BREE: Absolutely. CHRIS: ... betterment, right. Of again, having a passion for making a better profession, and one that's more responsive to not just the needs of the lawyers that compose it, but ultimately the people that we serve who depend on us to be solution makers for the betterment of society. So, Lindsey- BREE: And I just wanted to throw in here too. I really appreciate the conversations that we have. I've had multiple conversations with Lindsey and that this is an ongoing conversation, an ongoing discussion. And one that we continue to pick back up again and again and again throughout our work. And that's been a delightful aspect, Lindsey, working with you is that we can have these conversations and really honest ones. And so, thank you. Thank you for that. CHRIS: For sure. BREE: I thank you and I'm very grateful for the opportunity to be a part of the institute and its work, but also for the incredibly talented people with whom I've had the opportunity to serve. CHRIS: Yeah. And we will be back with more perspectives around this particular issue in our next couple of episodes. And again, for those of you who are new to the podcast, just some really insightful conversations with all different types of leaders of our movement in our first 20 episodes. I would encourage you to go back and look at the synopsis on our website. One of the things I'll also conclude with is, I think we will include our diversity, equity and inclusion policy that was adopted by our board of directors. Actually, our first action as a governing board. We'll post that in conjunction with this podcast as well. So, signing off. Be well out there, friends, and we will be back in a couple weeks. Thanks.  

Chris got a bike. Specifically, he bought a bike to use in a triathlon he signed up to participate in. Now he needs to name the bike, and speaking of naming things, a more technical topic that he talks about is the Crispy Brussels Snack Hour. Steph talks about Rescue Rails projects and increasing developer acceleration. They answer a listener question asking, "Why do so many developers and agencies, thoughtbot included, replace the default test suite in Rails with RSpec?" This episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM (https://scoutapm.com/bikeshed). Give Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy. Translate frustrations into professional corporate (https://twitter.com/MeanestTA/status/1509936432625897474) Learn Hotwire by Building a Forum (https://twitter.com/afomera/status/1512287468078264322) parallel_tests (https://github.com/grosser/parallel_tests) parallelsplittest (https://github.com/grosser/parallel_split_test) This episode is brought to you by Studio 3T (https://studio3t.com/free). Try Studio 3T's full suite of features for 30 days, no payment details needed. Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: STEPH: Oh, but I recently learned that Robert Downey Jr. in the Marvel movies he's snacking a lot, maybe not Iron Man, but something...oh no, he's stacking a lot. And I'd read that he was snacking a lot on set, and so they just built it in to where like, sure, you can snack as your character while you're doing stuff. CHRIS: [laughs] STEPH: And I think that's so cool because I find that I am eating every time I show up to record with you. So I would like the same special star treatment as Robert Downey Jr., [laughs] and I just get to eat during each Bike Shed. [laughs] CHRIS: All right. [chuckles] My understanding is also that he was wildly the highest paid of all the actors, so I think that should also come along with this. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Yeah, there's a lot that we can sort of layer on here, but it makes sense to me, and I'm fully on board. STEPH: You're an excellent agent. Thank you for fighting for my higher pay. [laughter] CHRIS: You are welcome. STEPH: What a good co-host you are. Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. One of these days, I'm going to say, "I'm Chris Toomey," and then I'm just going to see how you roll with it, although now I'm ruining it, I should have just gone for it. [laughs] CHRIS: Nothing can prepare me for this despite the fact that you're telling me in this moment. In that future moment when you do it, I will still be completely knocked out of whack. Just like for anyone out there listening, the thing that Steph would normally have said instead of what [laughs] she just said was, "What's new in your world?" STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: And I contractually require that that is the only way she starts this question to me because I get completely lost. She's like, "How are you doing?" I just overthink it, and I get lost, and then we end up in a place like this where I'm just rambling. STEPH: Every podcast contract you have from here on out must begin with hey, Chris, what's new in your world? [laughs] I will still get to that question. I just also had to tell you my future joke. I'm going to play that. Hopefully, you'll forget, and one day I will resurface. CHRIS: I can pretty much promise you that I'm going to forget it. [laughter] STEPH: Excellent. Well, to make sure I stick within the Chris Toomey contract guidelines, hey, Chris, what's new in your world? CHRIS: What's new in my world? Now I just want to spend a lot of time putting together my rider. There can be no brown M&M's in the bowl. No eye contact, please. And I can only be addressed with this one question which is, to be clear, very not true, Steph. And I always record with a video because we actually like to have human faces attached to things. Anyway, I'm going to tighten this all up. When we get to the technical segment of my world, I'm going to tell you about Crispy Brussels Snack Hour, so just throwing that out there as an idea. But before we do that, I'm going to share a fun little thing which is I bought a bike, which is exciting. It's not that exciting. People have bikes. This is exciting for me. But the associated thing that is more exciting/a little terrifying is I'm going to try and run a triathlon. I'm going to try and run, swim, and bike a triathlon as they go, specifically a sprint triathlon for anyone out there that's listening and thinking, oh wow, that sounds like a thing. The sprint is the shortest of the distances, so that's what I'm going to go for. But yeah, that's a thing that I'm thinking about in my world now. STEPH: I know next to nothing about triathlons. So what is a sprint in terms of like, what is the shortest? What does that mean? CHRIS: I think there actually maybe even shorter distances but of the common, there's sprint, Olympic. I want to say half Ironman, and then Ironman are the sequence. And an Ironman, as far as I understand it, I think it's a full marathon. It's like a century bike ride or something like that. It's an astronomical amount of everything. Whereas the sprint triathlon being the shortest, I think it's a 3.6-mile run, so a little over a 5K run, a 10-mile bike ride, and a quarter-mile swim, I want to say, something like that. But they're each scaled down to the rough equivalent of a 5K but in each of the different events. So you swim, and then you bike, and then you run. And so I'm going to try that, or at least I'm going to try to try. It's in September, and now is not September. So I have a lot of time between now and then to do some swimming, which I haven't done...like, I've swum but not in a serious way, not in an intentional way. So I got to figure out if I still know how to swim, probably get better at biking, and do a little bit of running, and it's going to be great. It's going to be a lot of fun. I'm super excited about it. Only a little terrified. STEPH: I think this is where as your co-host coach, which you have not asked me to be, where I would say something about there is no try, to mimic Yoda. [laughs] CHRIS: Yep, yep. Yep. Do or do not. Sprint or sprint not. There is no trying. Oh, were you making a try pun there? STEPH: I didn't go that far, but you just brought it home. I see where you're going. [laughs] CHRIS: This is pretty much what I do professionally is I just take words, and I roll them around until I find something else to do with them. So glad that we got there together. STEPH: Well, I'm really excited to hear about this. I don't know anyone that's trained for a triathlon. I think that's true. Yeah, I don't think I know anyone that's trained for a triathlon. So I'm curious to hear about how that goes because that sounds intense, friend. CHRIS: I think so. None of the individual segments sound that bad but stitching them all together, and I think the transitions are some of the tricky parts there. So yeah, it'll be fun. It's something I find...I used to never run; that was the thing. Like, deeply true in my head was that I'm not a runner. This is just a true fact about me. And then I ran a 5K one year for...it was like a holiday 5K fun run with friends. And every bit of the training leading up to it was awful. I did Couch to 5K. I hated it. My story in my head of I'm not a runner was proven with every single training run. Man, did I hate it. And then something magical happened on the day that I actually ran the race, and it was fun. And I was out there, and there was the energy of being in this group of people. But it was competitive and not competitive in this really interesting way. And then it ended, and we were just hanging out in a parking lot, and they gave us beer. And I was like, well, this is actually delightful. Maybe I actually like this thing. And so I've run a bunch of different races. And I've found that having a race to train for, and by train, I just mean some structured attempt at running, has been really enjoyable and useful for me. So yeah, this is just ratcheting that up a tiny bit. I've done a couple of half marathons is the high watermark so far. It's a good distance. But I don't know that a full marathon makes sense; that's a real commitment. And I'm looking to move laterally rather than just keep getting more complex in my running. So we're trying the shortest possible triathlon that I know of. STEPH: I am such a believer that exercise should be fun, so I love that. Like, I'm not a runner, but then you get around people, and it's exciting. And then there's that motivation, and then there's a fun ending with beers that totally jives with me. Because sure, I can go to the gym; I can lift weights, I can make myself exercise. There's some fun to it. But I strongly prefer anything that's more of like a sport or group exercise; that's just so much more fun. Well, super cool. Well, I'm excited. I would ask you all the details about your bike, but I know nothing. Do you want to share details about your bike? There may be other people that are interested. CHRIS: Oh yeah, my bike. I went to the bike store, and I said, "Could I have a bike, please?" And then they toured me around and showed me all the fancy...they were like, "This is our most modest entry-level bike." And then they kept walking around and showing me fancier bikes. And I was like, "Can we go back to that first one? That one seemed great." STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Because it got all of the checkboxes I was looking for, which is basically it's a bike. So actually, the specifics on it are it's a hybrid bike, so like a mix between road, and I don't even know the other road bikes I know of, and maybe it's trail. But I don't think it's meant for going on the trail. But for me, it'll be fine for what I'm trying to do as far as I understand it. It's technically a fitness hybrid, which I was like, oh, fancy. It's a fitness bike; look at me go. But it was basically just like, I would like a bike. General-purpose hybrid seems like the thing that makes sense. So I got a hybrid bike. And that's where I'm at. Oh, and I got a helmet because that seems like a smart move. STEPH: Nice. Yeah, the bike I own is also one of those hybrids where it's like…because when I moved to Boston...and lots of people have the road bikes, but their tires are just so skinny; it made me nervous. And so I saw one of the hybrid bikes, and I was like, that one. That looks a little more steady and secure, so I went with that one even though it's heavier. Do you have a name for your bike? Are you going to think of a name for your bike? CHRIS: I didn't, and I wasn't planning on it. But now that you've incepted me with this idea that I have to name my bike, of course, I have to name my bike. I'm going to need a couple of weeks to figure it out, though. We're going to have to get to know each other. And you know, something will become true in the universe for me to answer that question. But as of so far, no, I do not have a name for the bike. STEPH: Cool. I'll check back in. Yeah, it takes time to find that name. I feel you. CHRIS: [laughs] Yeah, don't make up a name. I have to find what's already true and then just say it out loud. Speaking of naming things and perhaps doing so in a frivolous way, as I mentioned earlier, the more technical topic that I want to talk about, oddly, is called Crispy Brussels Snack Hour. [laughs] So, within our dev team, we have started to collect together different things that don't quite belong on the product board, or at least they're a little more confusing. They're much more technical. In a lot of cases, they are...our form handling is a little rough. And it's the sort of thing that comes up a lot in pull requests where we'll say, "I feel like this could be improved." And we're like, "Yeah, but not in this pull request." And so then it's what do you do with that? Do you put a tech debt card in the product board? You and I have talked about tech debt cards plenty of times, and it's a murky topic. But we're trying within the team to make space and a way and a little bit of process around how do we think about these sorts of things? What are the pain points as a developer is working on the system? So to be clear, this isn't there is a bug because bugs we should just fix; that's my strong feeling, or we should prioritize them relative to the rest of the work. But this is a lower level. This is as a developer; I'm specifically feeling this sort of pain. And so we decided we should have a Trello board for it. And they were like, "Oh, what should we name the Trello board?" [laughs] And I decided in this moment I was like, "You know, if we're being honest, I've named everything very boring, very straight up the middle. We don't even have that many things to name. So we have zero frivolous names within our team. I think this is our opportunity. We should go with a frivolous name. Anybody have any ideas?" And someone had worked on a team previously where maybe it was a microservice or something like that was called crispy Brussels, like, crispy Brussels sprouts but just crispy Brussels. And so I was like, "Sure, something like that. That sounds great." And then they ended up naming it that which was funny, and fun, and playful in and of itself. But then we were like, "Oh, we should have a time to get together and discuss this." So we're now exploring how regularly we're going to do it. But we were like, let's have a meeting that is the dev team getting together to review that board. And we were like, "What do we call the meeting?" And so we went around a little bit, but we ended with the Crispy Brussels Snack Hour. STEPH: That's delightful. I love the idea of onboarding new people, and they just see on their calendar it's Crispy Brussels Snack Hour, come on down. [laughs] CHRIS: It's also got an emoji Brussel sprout and an emoji TV on either side of the words Crispy Brussels Snack Hour. So it's really just a fantastic little bit of frivolity in our calendars. STEPH: [laughs] That's delightful. How's that going? I don't think we've tried something like that explicitly in terms of, like you said, there are discussions we want to have, but they're not in the sprint. They're not tech debt cards that we want to create because, like you said, we've had conversations. So yeah, I'm curious how that's working for you. CHRIS: Well, so we've only had the one so far; it went quite well. We had a handful of different discussions. We were able to relatively prioritize this type of work within that. But one of the other things that we did was we had a conversation about this process, about this meeting, and the board. And whatnot. So we identified a couple of rules of the road or how we want to approach this that I think will hopefully be useful in trying to constrain this work because it's very easy to just like; nothing's ever perfect. And so this could very easily be a dumping ground for half-formed ideas that sound good but aren't necessarily worth the continued effort, that sort of thing. So the agenda for the meeting as described right now is async between meetings. Any of us can add new cards, ideally stated as problems and not solutions. So our form handling could use improvement. And then in the card, you can maybe make a suggestion of I think we could use this library or something like that. But rather than saying use this library or move to this library, we frame in terms of the problem, not necessarily the solution. And then, at the start of the meeting, any individual can champion a card so they can say, "Here's the thing that I really want everyone to know about that I've been feeling a lot of pain on." So it's a way for individuals who have added things to this to add a little bit more detail. Then using Trello as voting functionality, we each get a couple of votes, and we get to sprinkle them across different cards, and then using that now allows us collectively to prioritize based on those votes. And so the things that get voted up to the top we talk about; we prioritize some amount of work coming into the sprint. If it's actually going to turn into work, then it'll go onto the product board because ideally, it's moved from problem space to more of solution space even if the solution, the work to be done is do a spike on XYZ library or approach to form handling or whatever it is. But so ideally, it then moves on to the other board. The other thing that I felt was important is it's very easy for this to be a dumping ground for ideas. So my suggestion is at the end of the meeting, we sort by date, and we prune the oldest things. So it's like, if it's still hanging around and we haven't done it yet, and it's not getting voted up, then yes, we might feel some pain but not enough. It's not earning its place on this board. So that's my hope is we're weeding the Brussel sprouts garden that we have at the end of the meeting. That's roughly what we have now. We really only had the one, so that idea of pruning will probably come in later on. And it may be that this doesn't work out at all, and this ends up being tech debt cards that get stale and don't capture the truth. But I'm hopeful because there's definitely...there's a conversation to be had here. It's just whether or not we can make sure that conversation is useful and capturing the right amount of context and at the right points in time and all of that. STEPH: Yeah, I like it. I like the whole process you outlined. You know what it made me think of? It sounds like a technical retro, not that retros can't be technical; we bring up technical stuff all the time. But this one sounds like there was more technical discussion that was still looking for space to bring up. So the way that you mentioned that people add their thoughts, that it can be done async, and then you vote up, and then as things get stale, you remove them and focus on the things that the team voted for, that's really cool. I've never thought of having just a technical-specific retro. CHRIS: Yeah, definitely informed by retro. But again, just that slight honing the specific focus of this is just the dev team chatting about deeply dev-y things and making a little bit of space for that. I think the difficulty will be does this encourage us to work on this stuff too much? And that's the counterbalance that we have to have because this work can be critically important. But it can also be a distraction from features that we got to ship or bugs that are in the platform or other things like that. So that balancing act is something that I'm keeping in mind, but thus far, the way we structured it, I'm hopeful. And I'm interested in exploring it more, so we'll see where we get to. And I'll certainly report back as we refine the Crispy Brussels Snack Hour over time. STEPH: I feel like the opposite is true as well, where you have these types of concerns and things that you want to bring up. And even if they're on the board, once you get to sprint planning, there's a lot of context and conversation there that maybe the whole team doesn't have. It doesn't feel like the right moment to dive into this because you're trying to plan a new sprint. So then that stuff gets bumped down to the bottom or just never really discussed, or it gets archived. So I feel like the opposite is totally true, too, where you have this stuff, but then it never gets talked about because sprint planning is not the right place. So yeah, I'm really intrigued to see how that balance works out for y'all as well. CHRIS: Yeah, I think it's an exciting time, and we'll see where it goes. But like I said, I'm hopeful on it. But yeah, bikes, triathlons, and crispy Brussels, that's my world. Mid-roll Ad: Hi, friends, and now a quick break to hear from today's sponsor, Scout APM. Scout APM is an application performance monitoring tool that's designed to help developers find and fix performance issues quickly. With an intuitive user interface, Scout will tie bottlenecks to source code so you can quickly pinpoint and resolve performance abnormalities like N+1 queries, slow database queries, and memory bloat. Scout also recently implemented external service monitoring, adding even more granularity when it comes to HTTP requests and API calls. So give Scout a try today with a free 14-day trial and experience first-hand why developers worldwide call Scout their best friend. And as an added bonus for Bike Shed listeners, Scout will donate $5 to the open-source project of your choice when you deploy. To learn more, visit scoutapm.com/bikeshed. That's scoutapm.com/bikeshed. STEPH: I have a couple of fun things that I want to share and then something that's a little more in the techie space. The first one is there's a delightful Twitter thread that caught my attention recently that I just want to share; totally not tech-related. But this person shared a thread talking about how they help everyone on their team who's older than they are, making sure that the slang that they're using is correct in its context. And so they provided some funny examples. And then, in return, they also will translate this person's frustrations into professional corporate-speak, and it's such a good thread. So if you need a good laugh, I will make sure to include a link in the show notes. The slang is really funny, but it's actually the translation of frustrations into professional corporate-speak that that's the part that resonated with me. That was really good. [laughs] CHRIS: You shared this with me outside of this conversation, and I've read through them. Listeners out there, do not sleep on this. I highly suggest reading through this thread because it is fantastic. STEPH: The other thing that I saw is Andrea Fomera, who is a Rails developer and creates a fair amount of content...I haven't been through some of that content, but I know there's content around Rails. And specifically, there is a newer course called Learn Hotwire by Building a Forum. And she has made this totally free, and I just think that is so cool. And she shared that on Twitter, so I'll be sure to include a link in that to the show notes because Hotwire is something I haven't used yet. And so I saw this free course, and I think it would be fun to dabble and go through the course. And I know there are some other people at thoughtbot that have used it and seem really happy with it or interested in using it as well. Is that something that you've used? CHRIS: I have not. I skipped over Hotwire in my adventures. I'd found Inertia and was quite happy with that. And then, in that way that, I sometimes limit the amount of things that I'm allowed to explore on the internet in hopes of actually getting some work done; I have not spent much time. But enough folks that I deeply respect are very excited about Hotwire that it remains in the like; I would love to have an afternoon just to poke around with that. So I may take a look at this, although I don't know, I'm probably still in my moratorium. I'm not allowed to look at new frameworks for a little while time period. But I hear great things. STEPH: That's fair. That's also what I've heard. I've heard great things. So yeah, I just figured I would share that in case anybody else is interested in looking for a course that they could take and also dabble at Hotwire. The other thing that's on my mind is more the type of projects that I'm really getting a lot of joy from. Because I've known about myself for a while that greenfield projects are nifty, but they're not my thing. They're not the thing that brings me a lot of joy. It's just kind of nice. You got your own space, and you're building from the ground up, cool, cool, cool. But this one, I found that the projects that I'm really starting to gravitate towards are what I've heard someone else call Rails Rescue projects. So those are the projects where they have been around for a while, or they've just been built in a way that the data modeling structure makes it really hard to implement new features. Maybe there's a lack of test coverage that makes it really risky to ship new work or to make changes. There are lots of bug reports and errors that the team is fighting with. So then that type of work comes down to where you're trying to either increase stability for the application and for users and/or you're looking to increase developer acceleration. And I really, really liked those projects. That's the type of project that I've been a part of for...I think my last couple of clients have been in that way. I don't know that they would describe it that way, that it's a Rails Rescue project. But if I can see that opportunity where I see there's a stability issue or developers are feeling a lot of pain in one area, then that's the portion of the application, the portion of the team that I'm going to gravitate towards. Or like the current work that I'm doing where we're really focused on testing and making some improvements there or reducing that pain that the team is feeling around how long CI takes to run or the flakiness because then you're having to re-verify your CI runs. I like that work. It's a bit slow and frustrating, so it does seem to require a patient person. You also have to have lots of metrics that are guiding you because you can have a lot of assumptions around I'm going to make this improvement, but it's going to take effort to get there. And it'd be great if I can validate that effort upfront. So I feel like a lot of my time is spent more around metrics, and data, and excel sheets than necessarily coding. I don't know if that's great, but it's part of the work. There's a balance there. So I just found that interesting. I don't think I would have thought this is something I was interested in until now that I've been on these projects for a while. And I've started noticing a theme where I really enjoy them. Although I realize looking back at former Stephanie days when I was going through Launch Academy and learning to code, I really thought I wanted to be in DevOps. DevOps seemed like the cool kids' corner. They knew how the internet worked. They knew what was happening. They were making it live. And I just thought it seemed really cool. For the record, it is still a cool kids' corner. But I have also learned that the work-life balance isn't great with DevOps because you just never know when you're going to be on call. And that really stood out to me as something that I didn't want to do. And I do like building some features. But essentially, it's that developer acceleration that I really liked because they were the ones that were coming and often building tools and making it easier for then people to then ship their code and get it out into the world and triage. And so I liked the fact that their users were developers versus the people using the application as much, although, I guess, technically both. But the people they were often striving to help the most was the internal team, and that resonated with me. So I guess I have eventually found my way into that space. It wasn't through DevOps, but it is now through this idea of projects that need some rescuing. CHRIS: I love that you've spent enough time now to figure out what it is that draws you in the work and the shape of projects that is meaningful to you. Interestingly, I find myself not on the opposite side of things...you know, we're always looking for a disagreement, and this isn't a disagreement, but this is a thing on which we differ a surprising amount because I do like the early-stage stuff, the new, the breaking ground, all of that exciting whatnot. But how do I not make this a more complicated statement? I appreciate that you have the point of view that you do. I think the world needs more of what you're doing than the inclination that I have, like; I want to start something bright, and fresh, and new, and I can see so much progress immediately in front of me. And this is amazing. But the hard, meaningful work like maintenance, and support, and legacy, and rescue where necessary is such a critical aspect of the work. I see this in open source so often where there are people who are like; I made an open-source project; this is great. I hacked for a bunch of weekends, and look; I made a thing. And then the support burden builds up. And open source can be this wildly undervalued thing overall. And the maintenance of open source is even more so, and you have this asymmetry between the people that are using it and don't think that their voice is one of the thousands that are out there requesting a new feature or anything like that. The handful of people that I see out there in the world that come along later in the lifespan of an open-source project and just step in to do maintenance, my goodness, is that heroic work, just quiet, necessary heroic work. And what you're describing feels sort of similar but at the project level. And I don't know; I'm sort of like silent. I'm out loud on a podcast, not silently at all judging myself because I'm like, I feel like you're doing the thing over there. That seems like a good thing. But I also like my early projects... [laughs] STEPH: I think they're...I mean, we need each other. I need you to start the code, and the applications for them to then need some help down the road [laughs] to [crosstalk 24:30]. CHRIS: But I need to do a bad enough job that we have to be rescued by you. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Hey, don't you worry, friend, I'm doing a terrible...no, I think I'm doing an okay [laughter] job. Hopefully, I'm avoiding those traps, but it's hard to know when you're writing legacy code, you know. STEPH: It is hard for the reasons we were talking about earlier. Like, those technical discussions build-up, and then if you don't really have a space to then address it, then it just keeps getting sidelined until you suddenly get to this point of it's either we come to a grinding halt because we can't ship work, or we find ways to start bringing this into our process. And so that's the other part of the Rails Rescue projects is often looking at the team's process and figuring out, okay, instead of hiring consultants to come in and then try to help with this, how else can they also integrate this into their own project? So then, once thoughtbot lives, they now have ownership of this, and they can carry it forward as well. There is an aspect of this work that I'm still working on, and it comes around to the definition of work because if you go into a team or a project that's like, hey, we really need help with X. We really need help with addressing all these errors. Or we really need help improving developer happiness or getting test coverage in place. Finding out exactly how you're going to tackle that, are you going to join a team of the other developers? Like, are you looking for more of a mentorship? Like, hey, we're going to work alongside your team to then mentor them to then bring this into their own process and their own habits, so then they feel empowered to address this in the future. Are we doing this more as a triage where then we have a specific goal or two that then we're going to meet? And then once we get stuff out of this on fire state, then maybe we start pairing with other people. Or are we going to work closely with the people who are fighting fires with the bug reports and the errors? There are a bunch of different ways that you can tackle that. And I think it really helps define the success of that engagement and then your outcomes because otherwise, I feel like you can get distracted by so much. Because there's so much that's going to try to get your attention that you want to work on and fix. So you have to be very upfront about there are different areas that we can work on. Let's figure out some metrics together that we're really going after to then help define what does success look like for this first iteration of our work? And then what's the long-term plan for this work? Then how do we keep it going forward? How do we empower the team to keep this work going forward? And that's an area that I've learned just from trial and error from being part of these projects. And I'm very interested in still cultivating that skill and figuring out what's the area that we're focused on? CHRIS: There's something that you said in there that I want to hone in on, which is the idea of you've learned from going on so many of these different projects, and you're carrying forward ideas that you have. But I think more generally, there's something interesting in what you were just saying there around you've worked on a bunch of different projects at different organizations with certain things that they were great at, with certain things that they struggled with at different sizes. And you're able to bring all that experience to bear on each project. But I think also taking a step back, as you were describing, you're like, I think I've figured out what it is that I like and the type of projects that I want to do. I cannot say enough good things about working in a consultancy for a while because, my goodness, you get to try out a bunch of different stuff. And A, you get to learn a ton about how to do the work, and how to communicate, and different technologies and all of that. But you also get to figure out what it is that you might want to double down on and lean into in terms of the work. That's definitely a big part of my story. Seven years at thoughtbot, I tried a lot of different stuff, worked at a lot of different companies. And I would describe it as I found a lot of things that I didn't want. And then there's that handful of things that I really did want, and I was able to then more intentionally pursue that. So for anyone out there that's considering it, working at a consultancy is fantastic, or at least it has fantastic elements to it. It also can be complicated as you talk about finding organizations and having to, you know, if you're brought in for a certain job, but when you get there, you're like, "Ooh, I know you want me to fix bugs, but actually, I think I just need to work with your team because they're the ones writing the bugs. And why are they writing the bugs" "Well, because the salespeople are selling things, and then we have timelines." Like, we got to start at the very top of this whole pyramid and fix it. And so it can be very complicated. But there's so much that you can learn about yourself in the process, in the work, and I adored that portion of my career. STEPH: Yeah, I totally agree. Anytime someone mentions, they're like, "Oh, consultancy work. What's that like?" And I remember it was a couple of years ago I mentioned I was working for a consultancy, and they were like, "Oh, you must travel a lot." I was like, "No, [laughter] I stay put. I just work from an office in Boston." But I remember that caught me off guard because I hadn't considered that I was supposed to travel, but that makes sense that you think of consultants that travel. But when I meet people or talk to people, and they're like, "Oh, you've been at thoughtbot for five-plus years, and how's that going? And what's it like to be at a consultancy?" And exactly what you just said, it's the variety that I really like and getting to try on so many different hats and see how different teams and processes work and then identify like, oh, that worked really well for that team, or this isn't working well for that team. I have really enjoyed that. And it can be a roller coaster because you have to get really good at onboarding. You have to go through that initial phase of like; I swear I'm smart. I will get up to speed quickly, and I will learn things. But it's a period that you just have to go through with each team that you join, but you do it twice a year, maybe three times a year. And so you get comfortable with that over time. So there are definitely some challenges that then have to fit your personality and things that work for you and bring you joy. And I completely understand that it's not for everybody, just kind of I really enjoy product work, but I also really enjoy being able to move around to different teams and help folks. CHRIS: I love the idea that as a consultant, your job is to just walk through airports and high-five every Accenture billboard in it and just go up to the wall and pay your respects. But no, no, that is not our version of consulting. [laughs] STEPH: That's why I have so much time for The Bike Shed. It's because I'm just, you know, I'm in different airports high-fiving signs. And then this is my real job; Bike Shed is my real job. CHRIS: Oh, that would be fun. STEPH: [laughs] You know, I have such a fondness of Bike Shed that now something interesting has happened where someone was like, "Oh, you're bike-shedding." And they're not being mean, but they're just like, "Oh, we're totally bike-shedding," or "This is dissolving into bike-shedding." And I'm like, oh, bike-shedding, hooray. And I'm like, oh, wait, bad. [laughter] And I have to catch myself each time. CHRIS: Yeah, we've taken away a lot of the meaning. Well, I mean, have we or do we live up to it every single week? Who can say? But I, too, have a fondness for this phrase, perhaps not aligned with what it is actually meant to signify. STEPH: On a slightly different tech-related note, there is a gem that I'm really excited to check out. I saw it mentioned on the paralleltests gem, which is what helps you run your tests in parallel, and it's what we're currently using. But you can group your tests in different ways. And right now, we're using the runtime strategy where essentially then we use the output from RSpec where we know how long each file took to run. And then paralleltests will then use that data to then figure out, okay, how should I split up your test file? So then try to balance them as evenly as possible. We're at that point, though, where we've talked about tentpoles, so we have certain files that, say, take 10 minutes; other files will only take two minutes. And that balance is really throwing off our ability to then bring down the CI build time. So on paralleltests, there's reference to another gem called parallelsplit_test, where then you can run multiple test scenarios that are in one file but then split them out across different processes or different machines. And that is exactly what I want in my life right now. I haven't checked it out yet, so I feel like I'm giving a daily sync update of like, I'm going to go off and explore this thing. I will report back and see how it goes. [laughs] In the past, I usually try to say, "I've tried this thing, and this is how it went," nope, opposite today. I am sharing the thing I'm going to try, and then hopefully, it goes well. CHRIS: Well, either way, we should definitely report back. That's the truth. I like that you're leading us into this and giving us a preview. But then yeah, we'll see where we get to. That does sound like the thing you want, though. So I hope it goes well. STEPH: Yeah, we've learned at this point where we are splitting work across different machines that until we address some of those tentpole concerns, adding more machines won't help us because then a machine's going to run as long as the longest file. So we've been doing some manual work to split up those files. That's not the best, but it does help you see some results. So then, at least you know you're making progress. So now we really need to find a way to automate that because we don't want someone to have to manually figure out where are the tentpoles, split those files up, commit that, and then keep track of, like, do we have another tentpole on the horizon? We really need a gem or something to help us automate that process. So yeah, I will be happy to report back. MIDROLL AD: And now a quick break to hear from today's sponsor, Studio 3T. When you're developing applications, it can often be a chore to work with your underlying data. Studio 3T equips you with a complete set of tools to work with MongoDB data. From building queries with drag and drop, to creating complex aggregation pipelines; Studio 3T makes it easy. And now, there's Studio 3T Free, a free edition of Studio 3T, which delivers an essential core of tools. This means you can get started, for free, with Studio 3T Free, and when you're ready, you can upgrade and enjoy even more features through Studio 3T Pro and Studio 3T Ultimate. The different editions unlock more tools and additional integrations with MongoDB, SQL, Oracle, and Sybase. You can start today by downloading Studio 3T Free, which also includes a 30-day free trial of all the features of Studio 3T Ultimate, so you can try out some of the enterprise features as well. No credit card required. To start your trial, head to studio3t.com/free. That's studio3t.com/free. STEPH: Pivoting just a bit, we have a listener question. This question comes from Steve Polito. And Steve wrote in, "Longtime listener, first-time thoughboter." Yay. Yay is my addition. Anything that goes up in voice is probably my addition, [laughs] just so people know. All right, back to what Steve said. "Why do so many developers and agencies, thoughtbot included, replace the default test suite in Rails with RSpec? Not only does Rails provide a fully functional test suite by default," looking at you Minitest, "but it's also well-documented and even provides the ability to run system tests. Rails is built on the principle of convention over configuration. And it seems odd to me that so many developers want to override such a fundamental piece of framework." Thanks in advance, [singing] Steve Polito. Steve, I hope it's okay I sang your name [laughs] because we're here now. That is an awesome question. I'm going to give what may be less of an awesome answer which is, well, one; Steve highlights that people will then replace Minitest with RSpec. I haven't done that. I haven't actually gone into a project and said, "Okay, we need to replace your test suite and bring in RSpec instead." But if I'm starting out a project, I do have a heavy preference for RSpec, and frankly, that's just from experience. Like, that's what I was raised on, to say it in that way. [laughs] RSpec is what I know; it's what I'm used to. It's what, even when I joined thoughtbot, was just the framework that we used for all of our testing and what we focused on so heavily. So frankly, for me, it's just a really strong bias. I know it's something that I'm really good at. I know it's something that works really well. I know it's well-documented. I know it's also very accessible for other people to use. But actually replacing it on a different project, I don't think I would do that. I'd have to have a really strong reason, or maybe if we haven't actually started testing anything yet, to then replace it because that feels a bit aggressive to me. But then it just depends on the situation, I suppose. But yeah, overall, I just default to RSpec because that's what I'm accustomed to, and it's the testing framework that I know. CHRIS: Yeah, I think my answer is largely the same. It's the thing that I've worked with by far the most. Similarly, I've been on projects that were using Minitest, and therefore I used Minitest because it's definitely not worth the effort to switch. But in a lot of...well, I will say this, I've much less experience, and this may be less true over time. But there were many things that drew me to RSpec, and that continues to be interesting to me in the RSpec world. Even things as small as the assertion syntax, assertequal is the method that's, you know, this is how you do an assertion in Minitest, and it's assertequal expected, actual. That's the order of the arguments. It's expected first and then actual. That makes sense, probably with the expected, but I would get that wrong constantly. I do get that sort of thing wrong. They're just positional arguments that there's nothing about this that tells me which way to go. And so it's very easy to get failure messages that are inverted, and so it's just this tiny little thing. But with RSpec, we end up with expect and then in parentheses, the thing that we are expecting to equal the other thing, and it just reads a little more honestly. It fits within the Ruby mindset in my world. I want my code to be as expressive as possible, and Minitest feels much lower level to me. It feels more, you know, assert as a word is just...I'm not asserting. That just feels so formal. And so these are, again, to be clear, very, very small things, but they all add up. And there's a reason that we're using Ruby overall. And there's a reason that we're using Rails is this expressiveness is a big part of it for me, so I'll cling to that. I'll hold on to that as something that's true. Also, Rspec's mocking support, rspec-mocks as the library, I found to be really fantastic, and I've grown very comfortable working with it. And I know how and where to use that. I also have so much built-up knowledge, like the idea of when to use let and not use let in RSpec. It's just this deep thing that I know about. I'm sure there's an equivalent in the Minitest world, but I would have to have a different understanding in argument, and that conversation would just feel different. I think the other thing that's worth saying is this is a default for us at this point that I personally have not felt the need to reconsider. When I've worked on projects that have used Minitest, I certainly wasn't called to it. I wasn't like, oh, this seems really interesting; I'm going to lean into this more. I was like, I miss RSpec. And some of that is, again, just familiarity. But at the end of the day, we only have so much time to do things. And so, I firmly stand by my not reconsidering my testing option at this point. Like, RSpec does the things that I want. It does it really well. Critically, I'm able to build a system and write a test suite and maintain that test suite over time and have it tell me the truth as to whether or not my application should be deployed to production. That is the measure. That's the thing that I care about. I think it's maybe a little bit slower than Minitest, but I'm fine with that. I have solutions to that problem. And the thing that I care about is when the test suite is green, do I feel confident deploying? RSpec has helped me for years on that journey. And I've never questioned whether or not I should go back to the drawing board and revisit that consideration. So initially, it was probably because it was the thing that we were all using, and then that is for me why it has stuck around. And I love RSpec. I think how many episodes have we just said, "Thanks, RSpec," as a little aside? So we do love it in a deep way. STEPH: Probably not enough episodes have we said that. [laughs] Yeah, I like what you said where you haven't felt the need to switch over or to move away from RSpec. And I wonder, looking back at some of the earlier projects that I joined that were using RSpec, I don't know if maybe they chose RSpec at that time because RSpec had more of those features built-in, and Minitest was still working on those. Maybe they were parallel at the time; I'm not sure. But I like what you said about you just haven't had a need to go back and change. At this point, if I switched over to Minitest, it would definitely be a learning curve for me, which is totally fine. But yeah, I'm just happy with it, so I stick with it. And I also appreciate that idea that, yeah, unless you're new in a project, I wouldn't encourage someone to then switch over to something else unless I feel like there's just a lot of pain for some reason with the current testing setup. There has to be a reason. There has to be a drive. It can't be just a personal bias of like, I know this thing, so I want to use it. There's got to be a better reason that benefits the whole team versus just a personal preference. But overall, I think it comes down to for us; it's just a choice because it's the familiar choice. It's the one that we know. But I think Minitest and RSpec are both so widely supported. I was thinking about that convention over configuration. And yes, Rails ships with Minitest, but RSpec is so common that I don't feel like I'm breaking convention at that point. They're both so widely supported and used that I feel very comfortable going with either option. And then it's just my personal preference for RSpec. So thanks, Steve, for sending in that question. And for anyone else that has a question that you would love to share with Chris and I, you can reach us in a couple of different ways. You can reach us on Twitter via @_bikeshed. You can also go to the website, bikeshed.fm/content. We will drop some links in the show notes. But if you go there, then you can send a question or also email us directly at hosts@bikeshed.fm. And we're running a little low on listener questions, so we would love to have a listener question from you. And we would love to talk about anything that y'all want to talk about, okay, within reason, you know, triathlons, Brussel sprouts, things like that. All of that falls within the wheelhouse. CHRIS: Normal stuff. STEPH: Normal stuff, yeah. CHRIS: And to be clear, despite the fact that Steve did recently become a thoughtboter, you don't have to be a thoughtboter to send in a listener question. [laughs] In fact, it's much more common to not be a thoughtboter when sending in a listener question. But we'll take them from anybody. We're happy to chat with you. STEPH: On that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Rob and Vinnie walk through the Gospels and discuss the events of Jesus' last night from the time they head to the garden to the crucifixion of Jesus. (See notes below) NB: our goal is to keep these episodes free of charge. I do not intend to ever hide them behind a paywall. I can only do this if those of you who have been blessed by them and can afford to give ($5, $10, $25, or more/month) do so. You can give a tax-deductible contribution by following this link. Jesus predicts Peter's denial Matt 26:31-35; Mark 14:27-31; Luke 22:31-34; John 13:36-38 Jesus and the disciples leave the upper room and travel to Gethsemane 9:00pm? Arrive at the Garden of Gethsemane Matt 26:36-46; Mark 14:32-42; Luke 22:39-46 Asks the disciples to wait Matt 26:36 Takes Peter, James and John to a separate place Matt 26:37 Prays his High Priestly prayer: John 17 Tells the disciples that He is filled with sorrow Matt 26:38 Jesus goes a little farther Matt 26:39: Prays, “may this cup be taken from me.  Yet, not as I will, but as you will” Returns to find the disciples sleeping Matt 26:40, 41 Again He goes and prays: “If it is not possible . . . may your will be done” Matt 26:42 Returns to find the disciples sleeping again: “Their eyes were heavy” Matt 26:43; “Exhausted from sorrow” Luke 22:45 Again Jesus goes off to pray Matt 26:44: Again He returns and they are sleeping Matt 26:45-46 Jesus is Arrested 12:00am? Judas with Jewish and Roman authorities John 18:2, 3 Jesus asks, “who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth” they reply John 18:4, 5 Judas identifies Jesus with a kiss Matt 26:48 Peter cuts off Malchus' ear (servant of the High Priest) John 18:10 Disciples flee Mark 14:50 Friday Jesus appears before the Jewish leaders 1:00am? Informal hearing before Annas (ex-High Priest and father-in-law of current High Priest Caiaphas) John 18:12-14, 19-23 Jesus is struck in the face John 18:22 More formal trial before Caiaphas Matt 26:57-68; Mark 14:53-65; Luke 22:54; John 18:24, 28 Peter followed at a distance and was able to enter the courtyard because John knew the servant girl at the door John 18:15, 16 Authorities cannot agree on any legitimate charge Mark 14:56; Many false witnesses; but none are in agreement Matt 26:59, 60 Closest they could come was that Jesus had said that he would destroy the Temple Matt 26:61; Jesus remains silent Matt 26:63 Caiaphas questions him directly, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God” Matt 26:63 Jesus replies; “You said it” or “You say that I am” Matt 26:64 Then He adds; “you will see the Son of Man . . . coming on the clouds of Heaven” Matt 26:64 (Dan 7:13; Ps 110:1) High Priest tore his clothes and says, “He has spoken blasphemy” Matt 26:65 Charged with blasphemy, spit on and struck in the face: “Prophesy to us, Christ, who hit you?” Matt 26:66-68  (cf   . Isaiah 11:2) Jesus appears before the Sanhedrin for a more formal trial 6:00am? Matt 27:1-2; Mark 15:1; Luke 22:66-71 They question Jesus again: “are you the Christ?” Luke 22:67 Jesus replies, “If I tell you, you will not believe me” They ask Him again: “Are you then the Son of God” Luke 22:70 Jesus obliges anyway and responds; “You are right in saying that I am” Jesus appears before the Romans 7:00am? Jesus brought into the Palace (Jews could not enter because they would be defiled for the duration of the day; and thus, would be unable to eat the noontime meal “chagigah” John 18:28) and is questioned by Pilate Pilate wants to know what the charges are against Him John 18:29 Jews appear to be alarmed that Pilate would even ask; and they exclaim “if he were not a criminal we would not have handed him over to you” John 18:30 “Take him yourselves” John 18:31 “But we have no right to execute anyone” Pilate enters and begins to question Jesus “Are you the King of the Jews” John 18:33 Jesus replies that His kingdom is not of this world John 18:36 “You are a king then?” queries Pilate John 18:37 “You say that I am” John 18:37; Luke 23:3 Pilate goes out to the Jews and explains that he finds no basis for a charge John 18:38; Luke 23:4 Jews are not content with this and bring up charges against Jesus Luke 23:5 Pilate learns that Jesus is from Galilee and sends Him over to Herod Luke 23:6, 7 Jesus is question by Herod (who wanted to see a miracle) Luke 23:8 Jesus gave no answer Luke 23:9 Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked Him and dressed Him in a white robe Luke 23:11 Jesus sent back to Pilate Jews accuse Jesus of many things; but Jesus refuses to reply Matt 27:12-14 Pilate offers the Jews a release of a prisoner of choice: Matt 27:15-18 Barabbas (Jesus Barabbas? means: ‘a son of a father' ) an insurrectionist and a murderer Mark 15:7 or; Jesus: (The Son of the Father) Pilate's wife warns him not to have anything to do with Him Matt 27:19 Pilate asks what he is to do with Jesus Matt 27:22 “Crucify, Crucify” Luke 23:21 Pilate asks, “why? What crime has He committed?” Luke 23:22 VII .   Pilate goes into the palace Pilate has Jesus flogged; given a crown of thorns; a purple robe; they “hail” Him as “King of the Jews”; they struck Him on the face; spit on Him; hit Him with their staff; and paid homage to Him John 19:1-3; Mark 15:17-20 Pilate comes out to the Jews with a despicable looking Christ “Here is the man” John 19:5 “Crucify, Crucify” John 19:6 Pilate responds, “I find no basis for a charge” John 19:6 Jews insist Jesus must die according to their law John 19:7 Pilate and Jesus go back into the palace Pilate asks Jesus some questions John 19:9 Jesus refuses to answer John 19:10 “Don't you realize that I have power either to free you or to crucify you” John 19:10 Jesus explains, “you would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above” John 19:11 Pilate again goes out to the Jews Pilate tries to get Jesus freed John 19:12 Jews refuse to compromise Luke 23:23; John 19:12  Pilate washes his hands and claims, “I am innocent of this man's blood” Matt 27:24 Jesus brought outside to the Stone Pavement (Gabbatha): almost 12:00p.m. John 19:13,14 Pilate proclaims, “Here is your King” John 19:14 “Crucify Him” John 19:15 “Shall I crucify your King?” John 19:15 Chief Priest responds, “We have no king but Caesar” John 19:15 Jesus handed over to be crucified c.12:00pm Jesus is flogged Matt 27:26; Mark 15:15 Flogging: Roman Flagrum: whip of braided leather tongs with metal balls and bone woven in: Balls: deep bruises and contusions: Bones: severely cut flesh Jesus begins journey to Golgotha Matt 27:32; Mark 15:21; Luke 23:26; John 19:17 Unable to carry cross: Simon of Cyrene Women followed Luke 23:27-31 Hurled insults Matt 27:39-44 (Ps 22:7) Place of Crucifixion is Golgotha (Aramaic for ‘place of the Skull'; Latin: Calvary) Matt 27:32-56; Mark 15:21-41; Luke 23:32-49; John 19:17-37 Sign above Christ's head: “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews” John 19:19 2 Criminals; one on each side Nailed to the crossbar (Ps 22:16) Nails- 5 to 7 in. with a sharp point Through the wrist: inch below the palm Through the feet Arms stretched approximately 6 in.: dislocate the shoulders (Ps 22:14) Jesus is offered a mild sedative (wine and myrrh) which he refuses Mark 15:23 Cast lots for his garments Mark 15:24 (Ps 22:18) 7 Last Words of Christ Luke 23:34: “Father forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing” Luke 23:43: “Today you will be with me in Paradise” Luke 23:39-43 John 19:27: “Woman, behold your son.” “Behold, your mother” Mark 15:34 “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Ps 22:1) John 19:28: “I am Thirsty” (Ps 69:21) John 19:30: “It is finished” Luke 23:46: Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit” (Ps 31:5)

In this episode, we cover: Introduction (00:00) How Chris got into the world of chaos and teaching middle school science (02:11) The Cengage seasonal model and preparing for the (5:56) How Cengage schedules the chaos and the “day of darkness” (11:10) Scaling and migration and “the inches we need” (15:28) Communicating with different teams and the customers (18:18) Chris's biggest lesson from practicing chaos engineering (24:30) Chris and working at Cengage/Outro (27:40) Links Referenced: Cengage: https://www.cengagegroup.com/ Chris Martello on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christophermartello/ TranscriptJulie: Wait, I got it. You probably don't know this one, Chris. It's not from you. How does the Dalai Lama order a hot dog?Chris: He orders one with everything.Julie: [laugh]. So far, I have not been able to stump Chris on—[laugh].Chris: [laugh]. Then the follow-up to that one for a QA is how many engineers does it take to change a light bulb? The answer is, none; that's a hardware problem.Julie: Welcome to Break Things on Purpose, a podcast about reliability, quality, and ways to focus on the user experience. In this episode, we talk with Chris Martello, manager of application performance at Cengage, about the importance of Chaos Engineering in service of quality.Julie: Welcome to Break Things on Purpose. We are joined today by Chris Martello from Cengage. Chris, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?Chris: Hey, thanks for having me today, Julie, Jason. It's nice to be here and chat with you folks about Chaos Engineering, Chaos Testing, Gremlin. As Julie mentioned I'm a performance manager at Cengage Learning Group, and we do a fair amount of performance testing, both individual platforms, and coordinated load testing. I've been a software manager at Cengage for about five years, total of nine altogether there at Cengage, and worn quite a few of the testing hats, as you can imagine, from automation engineer, performance engineer, and now QA manager. So, with that, yeah, my team is about—we have ten people that coordinate and test our [unintelligible 00:01:52] platforms. I'm on the higher-ed side. We have Gale Research Library, as well as soft skills with our WebAssign and ed2go offerings. So, I'm just one of a few, but my claim to fame—or at least one of my passions—is definitely chaos testing and breaking things on purpose.Julie: I love that, Chris. And before we hear why that's your passion, when you and I chatted last week, you mentioned how you got into the world of QA, and I think you started with a little bit of different type of chaos. You want to tell us what you did before?Chris: Sure, even before a 20-year career, now, in software testing, I managed chaos every day. If you know anything about teaching middle school, seventh and eighth-grade science, those folks have lots of energy and combine that with their curiosity for life and, you know, their propensity to expend energy and play basketball and run track and do things, I had a good time for a number of years corralling that energy and focusing that energy into certain directions. And you know back, kind of, with the jokes, it was a way to engage with kids in the classroom was humor. And so there was a lot of science jokes and things like that. But generally speaking, that evolved into I had a passion for computers, being self-taught with programming skills, project management, and things like that. It just evolved into a different career that has been very rewarding.And that's what brings me to Cengage and why I come to work every day with those folks is because instead of now teaching seventh and eighth-grade science to young, impressionable minds, nowadays I teach adults how to test websites and how to test platforms and services. And the coaching is still the same; the mentoring is still the same. The aptitude of my students is a lot different, you know? We have adults, they're people, they require things. And you know, the subject matter is also different. But the skills in the coaching and teaching is still the same.Jason: If you were, like, anything like my seventh-grade science teacher, then another common thing that you would have with Chaos Engineering and teaching science is blowing a lot of things up.Chris: Indeed. Playing with phosphorus and raw metal sodium was always a fun time in the chemistry class. [laugh].Julie: Well, one of the things that I love, there are so many parallels between being a science teacher and Chaos Engineering. I mean, we talk about this all the time with following the scientific process, right? You're creating a hypothesis; you're testing that. And so have you seen those parallels now with what you're doing with Chaos Engineering over there at Cengage?Chris: Oh, absolutely. It is definitely the basis for almost any testing we do. You have to have your controlled variables, your environment, your settings, your test scripts, and things that you're working on, setting up that experiment, the design of course, and then your uncontrolled variables, the manipulated ones that you're looking for to give you information to tell you something new about the system that you didn't know, after you conducted your experiment. So, working with teams, almost half of the learning occurs in just the design phase in terms of, “Hey, I think this system is supposed to do X, it's designed in a certain way.” And if we run a test to demonstrate that, either it's going to work or it's not. Or it's going to give us some new information that we didn't know about it before we ran our experiment.Julie: But you also have a very, like, cyclical reliabilities schedule that's important to you, right? You have your very important peak traffic windows. And what is that? Is that around the summertime? What does that look like for you?Chris: That's right, Julie. So, our business model, or at least our seasonal model, runs off of typical college semesters. So, you can imagine that August and September are really big traffic months for us, as well as January and part of February. It does take a little extra planning in order to mimic that traffic. Traffic and transactions at the beginning of the semester are a lot different than they are at the middle and even at the end of the semester.So, we see our secondary higher education platforms as courseware. We have our instructors doing course building. They're taking a textbook, a digitized textbook, they're building a course on it, they're adding their activities to it, and they're setting it up. At the same time that's going along, the students are registering, they are signing up to use the course, they're signing up to their course key for Cengage products, and they're logging into the course. The middle section looks a lot like taking activities and tests and quizzes, reading the textbook, flipping pages, and maybe even making some notes off to the side.And then at the end of the semester, when the time is up, quite literally on the course—you know, my course semester starts from this day to this day, in 15th of December. Computers being as precise as they are, when 15th of December at 11:59 p.m. rolls off the clock, that triggers a whole bunch of cron jobs that say, “Hey, it's done. Start calculating grades.”And it has to go through thousands of courses and say, “Which courses expired today? How many grades are there submitted? How many grades are unsubmitted and now I have to calculate the zeros?” And there's a lot of math that goes in with that analytics. And some of those jobs, when those midnight triggers kick off those jobs, it will take eight to ten hours in order to process that semester's courses that expire on that day.Julie: Well, and then if you experience an outage, I can only assume that it would be a high-stress situation for both teachers and students, and so we've talked about why you focus so heavily on reliability, I'd love to hear maybe if you can share with us how you prepare for those peak traffic events.Chris: So yeah, it's challenging to design a full load test that encompasses an entire semester's worth of traffic and even the peaks that are there. So, what we do is, we utilize our analytics that give us information on where our peak traffic days lie. And it's typically the second or third Monday in September, and it's at one or two o'clock in the afternoon. And those are when it's just what we've seen over the past couple of years is those days are our typical traffic peaks. And so we take the type of transactions that occur during those days, and we calibrate our load tests to use those as a peak, a one-time, our performance capacity.And then that becomes our x-factor in testing. Our 1x factor is what do we see in a semester at those peaks? And we go gather the rest of them during the course of the semester, and kind of tally those up in a load test. So, if our platforms can sustain a three to six-hour load test using peak estimate values that come from our production analysis, then we think we're pretty stable.And then we will turn the dial up to two times that number. And that number gives us an assessment of our headroom. How much more headroom past our peak usage periods do we have in order to service our customers reliably? And then some days, when you're rolling the dice, for extra bonus points, we go for 3x. And the 3x is not a realistic number.I have this conversation with engineering managers and directors all the time. It's like, “Well, you overblow that load test and it demonstrated five times the load on our systems. That's not realistic.” I says, “Well, today it's not realistic. But next week, it might be depending on what's happening.”You know, there are things that sometimes are not predictable with our semesters and our traffic but generally speaking it is. So, let's say some other system goes down. Single-sign-on. Happens to the best of us. If you integrate with a partner and your partner is uncontrolled in your environment, you're at their mercy.So, when that goes down, people stop entering your application. When the floodgates open, that traffic might peak for a while in terms of, hey, it's back up again; everybody can log in. It's the equivalent of, like, emptying a stadium and then letting everybody in through one set of doors. You can't do it. So, those types of scenarios become experimental design conversations with engineering managers to say, “At what level of performance do you think your platform needs to sustain?”And as long as our platforms can sustain within two to three, you know, we're pretty stable in terms of what we have now. But if we end up testing at three times the expected load and things break catastrophically, that might be an indication to an architect or an engineering director, that, hey, if our capacity outlives us in a year, it might be time to start planning for that re-architecture. Start planning for that capacity because it's not just adding on additional servers; planning for that capacity might include a re-architecture of some kind.Julie: You know, Chris, I just want to say to anybody from Coinbase that's out there that's listening, I think they can find you on [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/christophermartello/) to talk about load testing and preparing for peak traffic events.Chris: Yeah, I think the Superbowl saw one. They had a little QR code di—Julie: Yeah.Chris: —displayed on the screen for about 15 seconds or so, and boy, I sure hope they planned for that load because if you're only giving people 15 seconds and everybody's trying to get their phone up there, man I bet those servers got real hot real fast. [laugh].Julie: Yeah, they did. And there was a blip. There was a blip.Chris: Yeah. [laugh].Julie: But you're on LinkedIn, so that's great, and they can find you there to talk to you. You know, I recently had the opportunity to speak to some of the Cengage folks and it was really amazing. And it was amazing to hear what you were doing and how you have scheduled your Chaos Engineering experiments to be something that's repeatable. Do you want to talk about that a little bit for folks?Chris: Sure. I mean, you titled our podcast today, “A Day of Darkness,” and that's kind of where it all started. So, if I could just back up to where we started there with how did chaos become a regular event? How did chaos become a regular part of our engineering teams' DNA, something that they do regularly every month and it's just no sweat to pull off?Well, that Day of Darkness was 18 hours of our educational platforms being down. Now, arguably, the students and instructors had paid for their subscriptions already, so we weren't losing money. But in the education space and in our course creations, our currency is in grades and activities and submissions. So, we were losing currency that day and losing reputation. And so we did a postmortem that involved engineering managers, quality assurance, performance folks, and we looked at all the different downtimes that we've had, and what are the root causes.And after conferring with our colleagues in the different areas—we've never really been brought together in a setting like that—we designed a testing plan that was going to validate a good amount of load on a regular basis. And the secondary reason for coordinating testing like that was that we were migrating from data center to cloud. So, this is, you know, about five, six years ago. So, in order to validate that all that plumbing and connections and integrations worked, you know, I proposed I says, “Hey, let's load test it all the same time. Let's see what happens. Let's make sure that we can run water through the pipes all day long and that things work.”And we plan this for a week; we planned five days. But I traveled to Boston, gathered my engineers kind of in a war room situation, and we worked on it for a week. And in that week, we came up with a list of 90 issues—nine-zero—that we needed to fix and correct and address for our cloud-based offerings before it could go live. And you know, a number of them were low priority, easy to fix, low-hanging fruit, things like that. But there were nine of them that if we hadn't found, we were sure to go down.And so those nine things got addressed, we went live, and our system survived, you know, and things went up. After that, it became a regular thing before the semesters to make sure, “Hey, Chris, we need to coordinate that again. Can you do it?” Sure enough, let's coordinate some of the same old teams, grab my run sheet. And we learned that we needed to give a day of preparation because sometimes there were folks that their scripts were old, their environment wasn't a current version, and sometimes the integrations weren't working for various reasons of other platform releases and functionality implementation.So, we had a day of preparation and then we would run. We'd check in the morning and say, “Everybody ready to go? Any problems? Any surprises that we don't know about, yet?” So, we'd all confer in the morning and give it a thumbs up.We started our tests, we do a three-hour ramp, and we learned that the three-hour ramp was pretty optimal because sometimes elastic load balancers can't, like, spin up fast enough in order to pick up the load, so there were some that we had to pre-allocate and there were others that we had to give enough time. So, three hours became that magic window, and then three hours of steady-state at our peak generation. And now, after five years, we are doing that every month.Jason: That's amazing. One of the things you mentioned in there was about this migration, and I think that might tie back to something you said earlier about scaling and how when you're thinking of scaling, especially as I'm thinking about your migration to the cloud, you said, “Scaling isn't just adding servers. Sometimes that requires re-architecting an application or the way things work.” I'm curious, are those two connected? Or some of those nine critical fixes a part of that discovery?Chris: I think those nine fixes were part of the discovery. It was, you can't just add servers for a particular platform. It was, how big is the network pipe? Where is the DNS server? Is it on this side or that side? Database connections were a big thing: How many are there? Is there enough?So, there was some scaling things that hadn't been considered at that level. You know, nowadays, fixing performance problems can be as easy as more memory and more CPU. It can be. Some days it's not. Some days, it can be more servers; some days, it can be bigger servers.Other times, it's—just, like, quality is everybody's job, performance fixing is not always a silver bullet. There are things like page optimization by the designers. There's code optimization by your front-end engineers. And your back-end engineers, there are database optimizations that can be made: Indexing, reindexing on a regular basis—whatever that schedule is—for optimizing your database queries. If your front-end goes to an API for five things on the first page, does it make five extra calls, or does it make one call, and all five things come across at the same time?So, those are considerations that load performance testing, can tell you where to begin looking. But as quality assurance and that performance lead engineer, I might find five things, but the fixes weren't just more testing and a little bit of extra functionality. It might have involved DevOps to tweak the server connections, it might have involved network to slim down the hops from four different load balancers to two, or something like that. I mean, it was always just something else that you never considered that you utilized your full team and all of their expertise and skills in order to come up with those inches.And that's one of my favorite quotes from Every Given Sunday. It's an older football movie starring Al Pacino. He gives this really awesome speech in a halftime type of setting, and the punch line for this whole thing is, “The inches we need are everywhere around us.” And I tell people that story in the terms of performance is because performance, at the software level, is a game of inches. And those inches are in all of our systems and it's up to us as engineers to find them and add them up.Julie: I absolutely love everything about that. And that would have made a great title for this episode. “The Inches we Need are Everywhere Around Us.” We've already settled on, “A Day of Darkness with Chris Martello,” though. On that note, Chris, some of the things that you mentioned involve a lot of communication with different teams. How did you navigate some of those struggles? Or even at the beginning of this, was it easy to get everybody on board with this mindset of a new way of doing things? Did you have some challenges?Chris: There were challenges for sure. It's kind of hard to picture, I guess, Cengage's platform architecture and stuff. It's not just one thing. It's kind of like Amazon. Amazon is probably the example is that a lot of their services and things work in little, little areas.So, in planning this, I looked at an architecture diagram, and there's all these things around it, and we have this landscape. And I just looked down here in the corner. I said, “What's this?” They said, “Well, that's single-sign-on.” I says, “Well, everything that touches that needs to be load tested.”And they're like, “Why? We can't do that. We don't have a performance environment for that.” I said, “You can't afford not to.” And the day of darkness was kind of that, you know, example that kind of gave us the [sigh] momentum to get over that obstacle that said, “Yeah, we really do need a dedicated performance environment in order to prove this out.”So, then whittling down that giant list of applications and teams into the ones that were meaningful to our single-sign-on. And when we whittled that down, we now have 16 different teams that regularly participate in chaos. Those are kind of the ones that all play together on the same playing field at the same time and when we find that one system has more throughput than another system or an unexpected transaction load, sometimes that system can carry that or project that load onto another system inadvertently. And if there's timeouts at one that are set higher than another, then those events start queuing up on the second set of servers. It's something that we continually balance on.And we use these bits of information for each test and start, you know, logging and tracking these issues, and deciding whether it's important, how long is it going to take to fix, and is it necessary. And, you know, you're balancing risk and reward with everything you're doing, of course, in the business world, but sometimes the, you know—“Chris, bring us more quality. You can do better this month. Can you give us 20 more units of quality?” It's like, “I can't really package that up and hand it to you. That's not a deliverable.”And in the same way that reputation that we lose when our systems go down isn't as quantifiable, either. Sure, you can watch the tweets come across the interwebs, and see how upset our students are at those kinds of things, but our customer support and our service really takes that to heart, and they listen to those tweets and they fix them, and they coordinate and reach out, you know, directly to these folks. And I think that's why our organization supports this type of performance testing, as well as our coordinated chaos: The service experience that goes out to our customers has to be second to none. And that's second to none is the table stakes is your platform must be on, must be stable, and must be performing. That's just to enter the space, kids. You've got to be there. [laugh].You can't have your platform going down at 9 p.m. on a Sunday night when all these college students are doing their homework because they freak out. And they react to it. It's important. That's the currency. That is the human experience that says this platform, this product is very important to these students' lives and their well-being in their academic career. And so we take that very seriously.Jason: I love that you mentioned that your customer support works with the engineering team. Because makes me think of how many calls have you been on where something went wrong, you contacted customer support, and you end up reaching this thing of, they don't talk to engineering, and they're just like, “I don't know, it's broken. Try again some other time.” Or whatever that is, and you end up lost. And so this idea of we often think of DevOps is developers and operations engineers working together and everybody on the engineering side, but I love that idea of extending that.And so I'm curious, in that vein, does your Chaos Engineering, does your performance testing also interact with some of what customer support is actually doing?Chris: In a support kind of way, absolutely. Our customer call support is very well educated on our products and they have a lot of different tools at their disposal in order to correct problems. And you know, many of those problems are access and permissions and all that kind of stuff that's usual, but what we've seen is even though that our customer base is increasing and our call volume increases accordingly, the percentage decreases over time because our customer support people have gotten so good at answering those questions. And to that extent, when we do log issues that are not as easily fixed with a tweak or knob toggle at the customer support side, those get grouped up into a group of tickets that we call escalation tickets, and those go directly to engineering.And when we see groups of them that look and smell kind of the same or have similar symptoms, so we start looking at how to design that into chaos, and is it a real performance issue? Especially when it's related to slowness or errors that continuously come at a particular point in that workflow. So, I hope I answered that question there for you, Jason.Jason: Yeah, that's perfect.Julie: Now, I'd like to kind of bring it back a little bit to some of the learnings we've had over this time of practicing Chaos Engineering and focusing on that quality testing. Is there something big that stands out in your mind that you learned from an experiment? Some big, unknown-unknown that you don't know that you ever could have caught without practicing?Chris: Julie, that's a really good question, and there isn't, you know, big bang or any epiphanies here. When I talk about what is the purpose of chaos and what do we get out of it, there's the human factor of chaos in terms of what does this do for us. It gets us prepared, it gets us a fire drill without the sense of urgency of production, and it gets people focused on solving a problem together. So, by practicing in a performance, in a chaos sort of way, when performance does affect the production, those communication channels are already greased. When there's a problem with some system, I know exactly who the engineer is to go to and ask him a question.And that has also enabled us to reduce our meantime to resolution. That meantime to resolution factor is predicated on our teams knowing what to do, and how to resolve those. And because we've practiced it, now that goes down. So, I think the synergy of being able to work together and triangulate our teams on existing issues in a faster sort of way, definitely helps our team dynamic in terms of solving those problems faster.Julie: I like that a lot because there is so much more than just the technical systems. And that's something that we like to talk about, too. It is your people's systems. And you're not trying to surprise anybody, you've got these scheduled on a calendar, they run regularly, so it's important to note that when you're looking at making your people's systems more resilient, you're not trying to catch Chris off guard to see if he answered the page—Chris: That's right.Julie: —what we're working on is making sure that we're building that muscle memory with practice, right, and iron out the kinks in those communication channels.Chris: Absolutely. It's definitely been a journey of learning both for, you know, myself and my team, as well as the engineers that work on these things. You know, again, everybody chips in and gets to learn that routine and be comfortable with fighting fires. Another way I've looked at it with Chaos Engineering, and our testing adventures is that when we find something that it looks a little off—it's a burp, or a sneeze, or some hiccup over here in this system—that can turn into a full-blown fever or cold in production. And we've had a couple of examples where we didn't pay attention to that stuff fast enough, and it did occur in production.And kudos to our engineering team who went and picked it up because we had the information. We had the tracking that says we did find this. We have a solution or recommended fix in place, and it's already in process. That speaks volumes to our sense of urgency on the engineering teams.Julie: Chris, thank you for that. And before we end our time with you today, is there anything you'd like to let our listeners know about Cengage or anything you'd like to plug?Chris: Well, Cengage Learning has been a great place for me to work and I know that a lot of people enjoy working there. And anytime I ask my teams, like, “What's the best part of working there?” It's like, “The people. We work with are supportive and helpful.” You know, we have a product that we'd like to help change people's lives with, in terms of furthering their education and their career choices, so if you're interested, we have over 200 open positions at the current moment within our engineering and staffing choices.And if you're somebody interested in helping out folks and making a difference in people's educational and career paths, this is a place for you. Thanks for the offer, Julie. Really appreciate that.Julie: Thank you, Chris.Jason: Thanks, Chris. It's been fantastic to have you on the show.Chris: It's been a pleasure to be here and great to talk to you. I enjoy talking about my passions with testing as well as many of my other ones. [laugh].Jason: For links to all the information mentioned, visit our website at gremlin.com/podcast. If you liked this episode, subscribe to the Break Things on Purpose podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform. Our theme song is called “Battle of Pogs” by Komiku, and it's available on loyaltyfreakmusic.com.

Chris Powers is the Founder and Executive Chairman of Fort Capital (https://fortcapitallp.com/) and the host of The FORT podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-fort-with-chris-powers/id1410549811). Chris is a serial entrepreneur with more than 16 years of real estate development and investment experience. Since founding Fort Capital, the company has invested over $1.4B in Class B industrial, commercial, multifamily, student housing, and residential and land development projects. His drive to always remain curious, desire to connect with and learn from others led Chris to start his podcast, The FORT. In the FORT, Chris talks with leaders of businesses across real estate and a variety of industries and dives deep into ideas and topics that are not regularly discussed. Chris covers each guest's story and explores in detail the critical moments that led to success, failure, growth, and confidence. He has successfully published over 200 podcast episodes. Standout Quotes: * "You only are going to be on this earth one time, you really are not coming back again after the first time; let's make the most of it" - [Chris] * "Everything that you were mad at your parents for when you were a kid, is everything you respect them for when you're an adult" - [Chris] * "Money never mattered to my dad, being content and serving others did" - [Chris] * "I think it's a very special thing in life to really want to be good at something" - [Chris] * "If you're a parent and you actually can't give your kids the things they want, it makes it almost easy; what's tough is when you can give them what they want and you choose not to" - [Chris] * "How can you expect someone that grew up with everything easy and given to them, to ever have that burning desire" - [Chris] * "Kids don't learn by words, they learn by actions, so I can say everything I want to my kids but they're going to be watching what I'm doing" - [Chris] * "You don't keep families together, particularly with the amplification of wealth, if you're not intentionally practicing the values" - [Mike] * "We're living in a really cool generation where I think we're going to be able to tell our stories to our kids like nobody's been ever been able to do it before" - [Chris] * "There's just very few people that matter in this world that you remember because of how much money they had, it's really about what they did… you will be defined by how much people remember you" - [Chris] * "The majority of businesses that do really well hit singles and doubles over and over" * "When's enough enough?... it depends on how big of an impact you want to have" - [Chris] * The first great business decision you're going to make is who you marry" - [Warren Buffet, Chris] * "There's things in life that are either giving us energy or taking away energy" - [Chris] Key Takeaways: * Chris Powers is the Founder and Executive Chairman of Fort Capital. He is also the host of the podcast, "The FORT", as well as a serial entrepreneur with over 16 years of experience in Real Estate Development and Investment Experience. Chris is a first-generation entrepreneur with stories that shaped him down to his relationship with his children. * Chris's dad was a lawyer who valued education, however, after 13 years of being a lawyer, He decided to become a doctor. With two kids and a wife at home, He left law and started medical school at the age of 39 which took place over 8 years with a financial toll on the family. The experience during those years created the foundation for the impression Chris has about money, feeling fortunate to have been more deprived of things than his peers. Chris also learned the importance of doing things in life that give fulfillment. * Because of the experience of not having money over those years, Chris became an entrepreneur at a young age to get the money he needed. However, Chris has a fear that his success allows him to skip the chances to deprive his kids of the things they should be deprived of. * Following the passing of his dad, Chris witnessed a turnout at the funeral and stories that depicted the level of impact people felt while his dad was alive. Although it was a traumatic unexpected event, Chris felt equipped at the time to take the reins in the family because his father had trusted him very early on to do things. This taught Chris that there's a level of transparency that is healthy with children, for them to start learning early on how the family operates. * "If you study people who are extremely successful in life endeavors, there is a common thread among them where they were in a position to really want something while growing up". This has made Chris understand that it is hard but necessary to deprive kids of certain things even when they can be gotten. He is trying to teach his kids not to be overly reliant on his wealth but to forge their path. Additionally, having the nature to treat people very well even from childhood is a good foundation to build on. * Raising great children amidst wealth is a challenge, and the importance of transparency cannot be overemphasised, especially when it comes to treating people well, or other issues affecting family values. This is important to note because kids learn by watching the actions of their parents, hence the teaching values has to be transparently done through actions. This transparency also translates to work, as Chris tries to make his work fun and appealing to his kids rather than intimidating. * Chris has been very intentional about leaving content for his children to learn from, especially in recordings and this is one of the motivations for his podcast, "The FORT". * Currently, Chris is working to create intentional family traditions that build the family experience. The first of these is an annual talk recorded and kept to give the kids later in life. * Starting Fort Capital: While in school, Chris wasn't particularly trying to make a lot of money but came across someone in Real Estate who helped him learn and start Real Estate deals which resulted in his company "Fort Capital". It is a Real Estate private equity company based in Fort Worth Texas. It is focused on buying Class B industrial and multi-tenant properties, functioning as value-add buyers. As time goes by the desire to sell lessens because there have been great liquidity events from sales and holding cash from sales isn't very impactful anymore. This is beneficial especially for newcomers because Real Estate is a great tax tool. * It is easy to get overwhelmed by other companies that seem to be doing immensely well, and be tempted to keep taking high chances. However, the majority of businesses succeed by surviving and growing incrementally. * To be an entrepreneur you need someone supportive even when things aren't so great. Chris recalls how selfless his mum must have been to be supportive of his father's unexpected decision to study medicine. This played a major role in the success of his dad just like his wife plays to get him to where he is today. * Concerning his view on generational wealth, Chris believes the easy route for a lot of folks with money is to let their kids assume that it's all going to be theirs, as soon as they believe it, whether it's true or not it can alter their lives. He is yet to decide on what he will leave for his kids but currently focuses on shaping their mindset on money. "I want my kids to have something but I want them to earn it and I don't want them to live a life dependent on it; not because I think it would be bad for them to have money but I think it would rob them the joy of living a fulfilled life" * From Chris to his kids: The way they will be judged when they leave earth is by the impact they've had on others. For them to live a fulfilled life, they need to think each day, "if it was all over tomorrow, what did I leave the world"? An exercise for listeners concerning this is "If you were at your 80th birthday party, write down what you would expect people you care about to say to you". You've got one shot, make it count. Episode Timeline: * [00:49] Introducing today's guest, Chris Powers. * [02:25] Chris describes inspiring life lessons from his dad. * [12:24] How did you deal with the loss of your father? * [16:30] How do you create balance with depriving your kids of some things for them to learn key values? * [28:45] Are you being intentional about creating lessons for your kids to come across one day? * [33:39] Do you have any intentional family traditions to build rituals around the family experience? * [35:50] Chris shares his journey to success in his business. * [45:33] Was there a breakthrough point where you knew you could breathe? * [48:58] What did you learn from your mother and wife in the role they play to support the family? * [53:04] Have you started to think about Generational wealth? * [55:53] A letter from Chris to his kids For more episodes go to BusinessOfFamily.net (https://www.businessoffamily.net/) Sign up for The Business of Family Newsletter (https://www.businessoffamily.net/newsletter) Follow Mike on Twitter @MikeBoyd (https://twitter.com/MikeBoyd) If you feel it's appropriate, I'd so appreciate you taking 30 seconds to Leave a Review on iTunes (http://getpodcast.reviews/id/1525326745), I receive a notification of each review. Thank you! Special Guest: Chris Powers.

“All these fires that are happening, it's gonna take a while to put them out. And you are going to be heavily involved in that,” says co-host Christina King. Today, Christina creates a spiritual agenda for co-host Chris in hopes of better understanding his mental state. Chris shares the current challenges he is facing and Christina offers helpful insights about the trajectory of Chris's spiritual journey. Chris shares a new motto he has found relatable recently: be the captain of your own ship. Chris explains that if anything goes wrong in his life, it is his responsibility to fix the problem. Christina chimes in and says that he already embraces this motto because of his background in team leading. She encourages him to understand that looks can be deceiving and that he is embracing being the captain of his own ship, just differently than he envisioned. Tune into this week's episode of Soul Dive for a conversation with co-hosts Chris McCann and Christina King about navigating Chris's internal path. Learn more about the reconfiguration of Chris's life, what Christina's visuals tell us about Chris's future, and why horses make amazing therapy animals. Quotes • “I've got to take some mushrooms and figure out what's going on here and give myself some space.” (0:09:17-0:09:22 | Chris) • “All these fires that are happening, it's gonna take a while to put them out. And you are going to be heavily involved in that.” (0:14:45-0:14:56 | Christina) • “If anything goes wrong, it's completely my fault. And something that's been coming through for me is be the captain of your own ship.” (0:27:05-0:27:12 | Chris) • “There are certain people that need to be connected with you. And so they're going to stick around.” (0:53:13-0:53:22 | Christina) • “I mean, sleep is crucial. And there are magical things that happen when you do sleep.” (1:10:18-1:10:23 | Christina) Links Visit And Subscribe To My "Chris McCann" YouTube Channel:

Right now - our government is teaching men NOT to work - and the government and corporations are trying to make men unable to work. These tyrants are so brazen - they are even willing to attack the very created order of God regarding work. And you must stand against them- And you must stand for Christ---Here is the link for the LA Fire Captain's 12-minute declaration of defiance to the mandates- https---rumble.com-vlppv9-la-fire-department-captain-on-covid-vaccine-mandate-this-tyranny-stops-righ.html--Here is the link about the mother denied seeing her child by a judge because she refuses to get the shot- https---www.fox32chicago.com-news-cook-county-judge-strips-mother-of-parental-rights-over-vaccination-status--Here is a link to another sermon on work- https---www.sermonaudio.com-sermoninfo.asp--SID-430162131412