Podcast appearances and mentions of Charles Cooper

This week on the GovNavigators Show, Charles Cooper, Managing Partner and Founder of the Brumidi Group, returns to offer his no-nonsense forecast for what's next on Capitol Hill. From budget reconciliation drama and appropriations gridlock to tariff tensions and the 2026 election, Charles breaks down the policy, politics, and personalities shaping the months ahead—and why even a missed vote could change everything.Show NotesOMB: Technical Supplement to the 2026 Budget GAO: DOT and the Impoundment ActEvents on the GovNavigators' RadarJune 3, 2025: Forum Global's USA AI Summit Carahsoft's Customer Experience and Engagement SummitJune 5, 2025: Committee on oversight AI in Government Hearing  June 6, 2025: ACT-IAC's Health Innovation SummitJune 25, 2025: ACT-IAC's Data & Analytics Forum 

WILD CARDS is a crime-solving procedural with a comedic twist that follows the unlikely duo of a by-the-book, sardonic cop and a spirited, clever con woman. Cole Ellis (Giacomo Gianniotti) is a demoted detective who has begrudgingly spent the last year on the maritime unit, while Max Mitchell (Vanessa Morgan) has been living a transient life, elaborately scamming everyone she meets. But while arrested and being held at the station, Max ends up helping Ellis solve a local crime. The two are offered the opportunity to redeem themselves - Ellis needs to get back to his detective post and Max needs to stay out of jail. The catch? They have to work together, each using their unique skills to solve crimes. For Ellis, that means hard-boiled shoe leather police work; for Max, it means accents, disguises, schemes and generally befriending everyone in sight, while driving Ellis absolutely nuts. The two will have to learn what it means to trust another person and maybe actually become partners. From Blink49 Studios, Front Street Pictures and Piller/Segan in association with The CW for commissioning broadcaster CBC in Canada, WILD CARDS is created by Michael Konyves. Executive producers include Konyves, pilot director James Genn, Shawn Piller, Lloyd Segan, and writers Alexandra Zarowny, James Thorpe, Noelle Carbone and Morwyn Brebner. WILD CARDS is produced by Charles Cooper and Virginia Rankin. International distribution is handled by FIFTH SEASONBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/arroe-collins-unplugged-totally-uncut--994165/support.

WILD CARDS is a crime-solving procedural with a comedic twist that follows the unlikely duo of a by-the-book, sardonic cop and a spirited, clever con woman. Cole Ellis (Giacomo Gianniotti) is a demoted detective who has begrudgingly spent the last year on the maritime unit, while Max Mitchell (Vanessa Morgan) has been living a transient life, elaborately scamming everyone she meets. But while arrested and being held at the station, Max ends up helping Ellis solve a local crime. The two are offered the opportunity to redeem themselves - Ellis needs to get back to his detective post and Max needs to stay out of jail. The catch? They have to work together, each using their unique skills to solve crimes. For Ellis, that means hard-boiled shoe leather police work; for Max, it means accents, disguises, schemes and generally befriending everyone in sight, while driving Ellis absolutely nuts. The two will have to learn what it means to trust another person and maybe actually become partners. From Blink49 Studios, Front Street Pictures and Piller/Segan in association with The CW for commissioning broadcaster CBC in Canada, WILD CARDS is created by Michael Konyves. Executive producers include Konyves, pilot director James Genn, Shawn Piller, Lloyd Segan, and writers Alexandra Zarowny, James Thorpe, Noelle Carbone and Morwyn Brebner. WILD CARDS is produced by Charles Cooper and Virginia Rankin. International distribution is handled by FIFTH SEASONBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/arroe-collins-like-it-s-live--4113802/support.

Charles Cooper, Founder and Managing Partner of the Brumidi Group, celebrated the new year with Robert and Adam by crafting significant predictions for 2025. His expert insights on the infamous Department of Government Efficiency and the future of Congress under the Trump Administration are sure to pique your interest. Happy New Year!Show NotesCongressional Updates: Speaker Johnson Re-electedBiden Message: Message to the Congress on Death of James Earl Carter, Jr.Events on the GovNavigators' RadarJanuary 7-9: Events surrounding the funeral of President Jimmy Carter.January 15: ACT-IAC's Winter Membership Meeting

Charles Cooper continues his discussion on Bible Prophecy Daily of the "Gospel of God", in this multi-part series "Crown Me". Jesus Christ came to set up a kingdom, and the focus of the Gospels is its spiritual leadership. Tremendous disappointment  awaits those who, either for lack of knowledge or improper motivation, fail to produce an acceptable return on the Lord's investment. The meaning of Matthew 25:30 is confirmed by the apostle Paul in I Corinthians 9:27. Do not prove worthless to the Master at his return.  

Charles Cooper concludes his multi-part presentation where he argues for the far more critical focus on “ruling with Christ” following the Bema Seat Judgment, rather than trying to figure out the timing of the Rapture. Previously, Charles discussed the character of one who is to rule with Christ. Such a person is not one who only has faith, but who is actually faithFUL, and they receive from their Master "Commendation", "Exaltation" and "Honoration". In this episode, he picks up at Matthew 25:24-30, where he now discusses the sad peril of the third man in the Parable of the Talents and the implications for the Christian who is faithLESS: "Derision", "Demotion", and "Divarication". Listen closely, as Charles concludes by correlating the "Parable of the Talents" with the preceding parable of "The 10 Virgins" (Matthew 24:1-12), and soberly points out the 1,000 year (Millennial) Kingdom implications for the lazy, worthless Christian. [Producer's Note: For further personal study, consider studying the Letters to the Churches in Revelation 2 & 3, paying particular attention to Laodicea in Revelation 3:14-22, which is clearly described as worthless, and confirms the ultimate discipline of divarication. We often use the words "broad and narrow way" in the context of those who are not saved versus those who are; but within the Church, as Coop points out, many Christians will arrive at the Bema Seat only to be devastated to learn the outcomes of their faithLESSness. The Narrow Gate is the gate to the Kingdom, and even Christians must press through that gate faithFULLY.]  

Charles Cooper continues his multi-part presentation where he argues for the far more critical focus on “ruling with Christ” following the Bema Seat Judgment, rather than trying to figure out the timing of the Rapture. In this episode, using the first two characters in the "Parable of the Talents" (Matthew 25:14-23), Charles discusses Kingship, and the character of one who is to rule with Christ. Such a person is not one who only has faith, but who is actually faithFUL, and they receive from their Master "Commendation", "Exaltation" and "Honoration". The concusion with the third man in the parable will be in the upcoming Part 4 of this series. [Producers Note: Due to the importance & sobriety of Charles' message regarding the Parable of the Talents, we will run his concluding Part 4 in the very next podcast, so that both parts are heard in close proximity to each other.]  

Charles Cooper continues his multi-part presentation where he argues for the far more critical focus on "ruling with Christ" following the Bema Seat Judgment, rather than trying to figure out the timing of the Rapture. In this episode, Charles picks up using Hebrews 12:2 where we are reminded that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Throne of God, and that the saints will ultimately reign with Him. As we understand this supreme position of Jesus Christ, and our relationship with Him in the Kingdom, it is imperative that we understand the requirement of "staying with Christ in His trials" (Luke 22:28-29.) This leads us to consider the difference between faithfulness and faith. Let's make our priority what Jesus commands: “Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness” (Matt 6:33).  

Charles Cooper offers this two-part presetnation where he argues for the far more critical focus on ruling with Christ following the Bema Seat Judgment than trying to figure out the timing of the Rapture. It is essential, and you can be confident, that you will face the Bema Seat. However, your chances of being alive at the appearance of the physical manifestation of God on earth are less and less certain with each day you get older. Let's make our priority what Jesus commands: "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness" (Matt 6:33).  

Charles Cooper continues his series, "'Twas the Night", by taking a look at the birth analogy used by our Lord in Matthew 24 as the framework to explain his glorious return. The birth analogy can only be fully appreciated in the future by seeing the importance of night before day. Weeping may and will endure for the night, but joy will come for those who see the Day of the Lord.  

Charles Cooper in Part 1 of this series, "'Twas the Night", highlights the significance of the night and day analogy used throughout Scripture. Charles begins with a look at “the Last Days,” and “the Last Day” analogy used in the New Testament to mark the passage of time between the birth of the Lord Jesus and his return to rule on the earth for 1,000 years: a fact that makes the night before the Day of the Lord even more significant.

LeRoy Pernell, et al. v. Brian Lamb, et al. (consolidated with Adriana Novoa, et al. v. Commissioner of the Florida State Board of Education, et al.), argued before Judges Charles R. Wilson, Britt C. Grant, and Barbara Lagoa in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit on June 14, 2024. Argued by Charles Cooper (on behalf of Brian Lamb, et al.) and Leah Watson (on behalf of Appellees LeRoy Pernell, et al.) and Greg Greubel (on behalf of Appellees Adriana Novoa, et al.). Issues Presented, from the Brief of Defendants-Appellants: (1) Whether Plaintiffs have Article III standing to bring a pre-enforcement challenge to each provision of Florida's Individual Freedom Act that regulates public universities; (2) Whether the Act's regulation of in-class instruction by public employees triggers First Amendment scrutiny; (3) Whether the Act is sufficiently tailored to advance the State's compelling interest in preventing invidious discrimination by public employees at public universities; (4) Whether the challenged provisions of the Act are unconstitutionally vague; (5) Whether any unconstitutional provisions are severable from the remainder of the Act; and (6) Whether equitable factors favor reversal of the district court's preliminary injunction. Resources: CourtListener case docket for LeRoy Pernell v. Commissioner of the FL State Board of Education (pre-consolidation name of one of the constituent cases) The Institute for Free Speech promotes and defends the political speech rights to freely speak, assemble, publish, and petition the government guaranteed by the First Amendment. If you're enjoying the Free Speech Arguments podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. To support the Institute's mission or inquire about legal assistance, please visit our website: www.ifs.org

Is an Article V convention a threat to the Second Amendment? Charles J. Cooper, who has served as chief litigator for the NRA, shares his view in this audio essay. Cooper is a founding member and chairman of Cooper & Kirk, PLLC. Named by The National Law Journal as one of the 10 best civil litigators in Washington, he has over 35 years of legal experience in government and private practice, with several appearances before the United States Supreme Court and scores of other successful cases on both the trial and appellate levels. Download this Essay

Charles Cooper points out that it has long been argued by pretribulationists that Revelation 3:10 is a prooftext for their position. So certain are many who espouse this position that exegesis must take a backseat to any other claims of Scripture. Charles notes the critical role punctuation makes in the reading and understadning of this verse. If you would like to read a detailed dismantling of this argument with clear biblical exegesis, drop Charles a quick email and he will send you a PDF copy of his book: "Revelation 3:10 – A Bombshell." His email is coop@kingdomalive.us.  

Friend of GovNavigators (#FOGN) Charles Cooper (aka Mr. Sunshine) joins the show again to preview the upcoming legislative agenda in Congress in 2024 and how the presidential election will impact what gets done (and what doesn't). Despite his perfect record predicting tough legislative outcomes, we're sure he'll hit a roadbump sometime in 2024. Robert and Adam also mark Martin Luther King Jr. Day and review the latest happenings in government management.  Show NotesBrumidi GroupWasabi Fenway Bowl ResultsHSGAC AI Hearing: Wonder Women of TechJanuary 17: AGA Webinar: Uniform Guidance and Grant Accounting 

Charles Cooper previously looked at the pre-, mid-, and post-tribulation positions on the timing of the rapture in the book of Revelation. Now, Charles turns his attention to a synthetic view regarding this critical question. There are points of truth in all of the rapture positions, but their error prevents any one position from being universally accepted. A synthetic view that takes the strengths of each position, along with several clarifications, allows the rapture to be identified in Revelation 7:9-ff. Listen as Cooper defends his position.  

Charles Cooper continues his study of the structure of the Book of Revelation in preparation for his presentation regarding the placement of the rapture according to the PreWrath rapture view. This second half of the prophetic sequence is a preview and explanation of why the devastating wrath of God in the form of bowl judgments is necessary. Following God's wrath, the Kingdom of the Lamb and the eternal dwelling of God on earth is presented.  

Charles Cooper continues his study of the timing of the rapture in the Book of Revelation. He argues that the location of the rapture in the Book of Revelation is notoriously difficult due to the absence of an explicit reference. Another complicating factor is the inability of scholars to agree on the structure of the book. One cannot place the rapture in the book if he or she does not understand the structure. Before we look at the PreWrath timing of the ethereal reunion of the saints with her Lord, we will examine the structure of the Revelation. Chapter 1 through chapter 11:15 is the first prophetic half of the book based on our understanding of Revelation 10.  

Charles Cooper now turns our attention to the MidTribulation Rapture position, which teaches that Revelation 14:14-16 depicts the rapture of the Church. Because of the harvest of the earth by the “one like a son of man,” many see this as a clear reference to the rapture. In fact, both pre-tribbers and post-tribbers have also argued for this passage representing the rapture of the Church. Let's see if this is so.  

Charles Cooper examines the Pre-Tribulation Rapture position.  For many decades, Revelation 4:1 was argued to be the clear reference to the rapture in the book of Revelation. This interpreation was held by many because of the absence of the term “church” in chapters 4-19. The argument further asserts that the Apostle John represents the Church caught up to heaven, after the church age represented in Revelation 2-3. Only until recently have many pretribbers abandoned this interpretation. Yet, many continue to maintain the pretribulation position. Many reasons are given to support their conclusion, and in this eposide we will examine a few of them.  

Charles Cooper continues his study of the book of Revelation. To determine where in the book the rapture occurs first requires a clear understanding of the structure of the book. This is not an easy task. In this episode, Cooper relates his study and gives his view concerning this important detail.  

Charles Cooper as he discusses how the interpretation of the book of Revelation influences where one finds evidence of the rapture of the Church. In this episode, Cooper will take a brief look at the four major interpretive systems, and select the one he feels is best for the correct interpretation of the Book of Revelation.  

Resources: ----------------- https://eips.ethereum.org/EIPS/eip-5656https://ethereum-magicians.org/t/eip-... Slides - https://docs.google.com/presentation/... PEEPanEIP -    • PEEPanEIP   Dencun -    • Dencun   Check out upcoming EIPs in Peep an EIP series at https://github.com/ethereum-cat-herde... YT Clip -    • Got #EVM or #EOF related #EIP or ques...   Follow at Twitter -------------------------- axic.eth @alexberegszaszi | Paweł Bylica @chfast | Charles Cooper @big_tech_sux | Pooja Ranjan @poojaranjan19 Topics covered --------------------------- 0:29 - EIP-5656 intro 1:30 - Guests introduction 7:07 - MCOPY 8:02 - MCOPY - Copies EVM Memory 9:30 - MCOPY missing piece 14:48 - How important memory copying is for Vyper? 16:42 - Why? 17:45 - Copying via loop is expensive 20:10 - Identity Precompile cost 22:22 - Anecdotes identity precompile 24:30 - eip2929 made precompile pricing cheaper 26:20 - Technicality about memory copying 29:09 - End of presentation. 29:35 - How do the MCOPY instructions compile into in terms of gas costs to other memories like identity precompile? 32:16 - What benefits do static analyzers and optimizers gain from having a dedicated MCOPY instruction in the EVM? 35:09 - Why 5b instead of 5c as a specific opcode slot? 37:13 - Backward compatibility? 40:02 - EOF will solve some of the problems 41:20 - Security consideration 41:48 - Testing performance of EIP-5656 43:45 - Message for the community from Ipsilon & Vyper

IronMen of God - September 2023 Coffee Speaker: Dr. Charles Cooper Topic: Job: How God Molds Men Through Suffering

In this session, Charles Cooper concludes his defense for rejecting the dominant views on the timing of the rapture. He delineates why he is convinced that the synthetic view of the timing of the rapture best explains the textual details in Scripture. Taking the strengths of the Pre-, Mid-, and Post-trib positions and adding the defining straight of the PreWrath position, Cooper sets forth the four pillars that must undergird the correct rapture position. Cooper insists that if his position is viable, one must see in the Revelation About Christ a significant gathering of God's people to heaven near the beginning of God's eschatological wrath on earth. Seven passages in Revelation may support an indirect reference to the rapture: Revelation 3:10; 4:1-2; 7:9-17; 11:11-19; 12:1-5; 14:14-16; and 19:11-20:4. Each passage has been espoused by at least one of the dominant rapture positions.  

In this session, Charles Cooper begins a study of the Book of Revelation with the intent to determine which passage most likely evidences the timing of the rapture. In this introductory session, Cooper explains that the correct view is a synthetic view that adopts the biblically defensible truths taken from the three dominant views of previously held rapture positions, i.e., Pre-, Mid-, and Posttribulationism. Cooper highlights the pros and cons of each rapture position, which have prevented each position from becoming the single majority view.  

This weeks episode is brought to you by Cody Hill, Charles Cooper and Jack Scanlan. They pitched the idea of taking over for an episode and here's what they produced. Enjoy!

Friend of the show Charles Cooper, Managing Partner and Founder of Brumidi Group is back by popular demand! Charles joins Robert and Adam to discuss the overflowing fall agenda for Congress as the August recess draws to a close. From appropriations and the potential for a government shutdown to the farm bill, NDAA, tax extenders, Chinese tariffs, and the Senate appointment process, they cover a lot of ground.Robert and Adam also lean on the GovNavigators intern (and give a h/t to Wayne's World) to flashback to Charles's previous appearance to determine if his prediction turned out to be true.Show Notes:Eric Katz GovExec article: Slashing the federal workforce and eliminating agencies: Takeaways from the first Republican presidential debate

Charles Cooper continues his look at the nations that are necessary to end human history as we know it. Cooper sees Persia (Iran), Cush (Ethiopia), and Put (Libya) as depicted in Ezekial 38-39 dealing with the end of the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ and not the end of Daniel's final Week.  

Charles Cooper highlights the significant role Egypt has played, and will play, in Bible history. God has a special place in his heart for the Egyptian people, which Isaiah calls "my people." There has been fear among some that the low birthrate in Egypt might see a significant decline in the Egyptian people, but rest assured, God's prophetic depicted role of the Egyptians will not fail. Egypt will be there at the end.  

Charles Cooper continues his discussion concerning the importance of certain countries in connection with the beginning and completion of Daniel's final week. Just as it is necessary for Israel and Assyria to have a physical presence on the world map prior to the beginning of Daniel's final week, so must Ammon, Moab, and Edom. The absence of these three countries on the world map indicates that the imminent beginning of Daniel's final week is impossible.  Listen as Cooper explains why!  

Charles Cooper continues his discussion of Eschatological Geography: The World Map at the Return of Jesus Christ. Today, Cooper describes the spiritual significance of recent historical events concerning the Assyrian people and their traditional homeland. The Islamic State of Iraq and Levant (ISIL) had a far more significant agenda than most Western Christians think. Just as one can see Satanic opposition to God's agenda in many historically significant events in the Bible that at first glance did not have explicit reference to Satan. The book of Esther, Isil's attempt to drive out the Assyrian Christians from their traditional homeland, has more to do with God's eschatological promise than many might know. Listen as Cooper explains.  

Charles Cooper continues his discussion of Eschatological Geography and the world map at the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week.  The importance of the Assyrian people, for both the beginning of the end-time sequence and the millennial reign of Christ on this earth, is critical. The fact that there is no geographically designated land called "Assyria" should warn men and women from making predictions about the imminent return of Jesus Christ. The historically-significant role the Assyrians played in Israel's history, and God's promise to hold Israel, Egypt, and Assyria as the unique peoples among all the tribes of the earth, warrants pause about the beginning of Daniel's final week until Assyria regains its geographical homeland. Where are the Assyrian people now?  

Charles Cooper continues his discussion of Eschatological Geography and The World Map at the Beginning of Daniel's 70th Week. The world map is a far greater indicator of where human history is in connection with eschatological fulfillment than any other predictor. Just as the necessity for National Israel to be back in the land with a national ruling government was absolutely necessary for the end-time sequence to begin, which did not occur until 1947, we see the exact same necessity for Assyria. Yet, the absence of National Israel having a geographical footprint did not prevent William Miller from being one of the great delusions in modern history. The prediction of our Lord's return between March 1843 and October 1844 could have been prevented by recognizing this one fact. Let's learn together!  

Bella and Hal sit down and talk all things Animal Fights, Tatt Talk and more. Guest appearances from Charles Cooper and Jack Scanlan

Charles Cooper talks about the signs of the Lord's return, and how His return was not imminent prior to 1947 because the prophetic geography necessary for the return of Jesus simply did not exist. Eschatological geography demands that when Jesus returns, the Jews must be in their own land with a governing authority in place that allows a representative to enter into a covenent agreement on behalf of the Jewish people. Charles argues if that was true before 1947 it is true now, and Christians should not have anxiety that Jesus is going to suddenly appear before the eschatological, geographical puzzle is set.  

Charles Cooper presents a study on hermeneutics: the rules for understanding a written document. Your hermeneutic is the key to understanding biblical prophecy. Bible study with discernment should be a goal of every Christian, and an accurate understanding of the biblical text is required for a proper interpretation of the author's intended meaning.  

Hal and Bella Hunter sit down with guests Jack Scanlan and Charles Cooper for a weekly recap and to answer your questions.

Friend of the show Charles Cooper from Brumidi Group joins the podcast this week to share some keen observations and his optimistic view from Capitol Hill as Congress returns to Washington. In the news, Robert and Adam have somewhat opposing views on a new OMB memo strongly encouraging federal employees to return to the office and they also contemplate the upcoming release on quite an auspicious day of GAO's High Risk List.

Charles Cooper discusses the lack of an explicit statement by Jesus that he was a prophet. While others saw and made this claim, Jesus did not. Perhaps, because Jesus was the Son of God, he knew that while prophecy receives a message from God, he, Jesus, would be the message of God. The centrality of our Lord's prophetic message was the Kingdom of God – the gospel or good news of God.  

Charles Cooper discusses the significance of Mark 1:14-15, as Jesus explicitly declares the central message of his ministry. Few phrases have been more misunderstood than "The Kingdom of God." It remains greatly misunderstood and misapplied in the lives of saints. Let's get a better understanding as Coop discusses, The Good News of God.  

Charles Cooper discusses the New Testament proclamation that John the Baptist was the greatest prophet of the Old Testament prophetic era. How can this be? No book bears his name. Great prophets: Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Daniel have books. Yes, Jesus and the people identify John the Baptist as a prophet -- Matt 11:7-15; Matt 14:1-5; and Luke 16:16. What are the Prophecies of John the Baptist?  

Charles Cooper discusses one of the oldest prophesies in the Bible: The Gospel of God. It calls upon men to live to avoid God's wrath at the physical manifestation of God upon the earth. Enoch preached it (Jude 1:14-15). Revelation 14:6-7 rehearse the last sermon to mankind days before God's final wrath in the bowl judgments falls upon the earth: The Eternal Gospel!  

Bella and Hal Hunter are joined by the three apprentices Luke Etho, Charles Cooper and Jack Scanlan. They talk learning to tattoo, difficult experiences and more.

As the actual courtroom videotapes are finally unsealed, we rebroadcast excerpts from Oscar-winning gay screenwriter Dustin Lance Black's play based on the transcripts of the 2010 trial that overturned California's Proposition 8, the initiative that banned marriage equality in the state. Featured in the Los Angeles Theater Works production are John C. Reilly as David Blankenhorn of the Institute for American Values, George Takei as Dr. William Tam of the Traditional Family Coalition, George Clooney as co-counsel for the plaintiffs David Boies, Kevin Bacon as ProtectMarriage.com attorney Charles Cooper and Brad Pitt as Judge Vaughn Walker. Plus: White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre shares her rainbow flare on National Coming Out Day! And in NewsWrap: two patrons of a Bratislava, Slovakia gay bar are killed and an employee injured when a terrorist teenager opens fire, Mexico's Senate passes a ban on conversion therapy, Montenegro Pride demands an end to hate speech and harassment, a U.S. gay man married to a Japanese citizen wins the kind of extended visa usually reserved for queer couples who are both foreign born, University of Florida students slam the pending appointment of anti-queer Senator Ben Sasse as their next president, and more international LGBTQ news reported this week by M.R. Raquel and Michael LeBeau (produced by Brian DeShazor). All this on the October 17, 2022 edition of This Way Out! Join our family of listener-donors today at http://thiswayout.org/donate/

CHRIS NEWBOLD: Hello, wellbeing friends. Welcome to the Path To Well-Being In Law Podcast, an initiative of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. As you know, my name is Chris Newbold. I serve as executive vice president of ALPS Malpractice Insurance. You know, our goal here on the podcast is to introduce you to thought leaders doing meaningful work in the wellbeing space within the legal profession, and in the process, build and nurture a national network of wellbeing advocates intent on creating a culture shift within the profession. As always, I am joined by my co-host, Bree Buchanan. Bree, how are you doing today? BREE BUCHANAN: I'm doing great, Chris. Great to be here. CHRIS: Good, good. As you all know, Bree is the president of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. Bree, we have some really exciting news to share about the institute and the journey that we're on to engineer this culture shift. Would you maybe give us a clue as to the breaking news that I think that we were so excited about? BREE: Nobody could be more excited than me because you said, you know, Bree is the board president. Well, up until this news, I had two jobs. I was the acting executive director, so I am just delighted to let people know we have hired our first full-time staff person and that is our inaugural executive director. Her name is Jennifer DiSanza. She comes to us with a whole host of experience in wellbeing issues and particularly with the law students. For many reasons, we wanted to bring Jennifer on board, but also strategically, we really realized that's where she's coming from is the future of our profession. And also, aside of where we know there's a lot of behavioral health distress and stress on the youngest members of our profession and the law students. So we're just thrilled to have Jennifer on board. CHRIS: Yeah. See, I had the privilege of serving with you Bree on the hiring committee. Boy, we have a dynamic leader now that will be working day-to-day to think about advancing wellbeing in our profession. You know, there's so much work to be done as you well know. We're actually planning on having Jennifer as our next podcast guest, which will be awesome to be able to just talk about the vision, why she's passionate about this work. It will also happen to be after the conclusion of some strategic planning that we as a board will be doing. So things are just really aligning well with both what has transpired, where we're going, and then focusing on what lies ahead in terms of some big issues that we have to tackle as we think about the wellbeing of lawyers and legal professionals in the profession. With that, today we're going to circle back to, we've spent considerable time in the area of diversity, equity, and inclusion. You know, we had anticipated a three part series on this, but sometimes you extend an offer and you get somebody who's so awesome that you sit there and go, we have to expand this even further. Right? BREE: Along came Kori. Yeah. CHRIS: That's right. Along came Kori. And when Kori came along, we're like, okay, we're breaking the rules. We're totally bringing Kori into the mix. And so we were really excited to welcome Kori Carew to the podcast. Bree, would you be so kind to introduce Kori? And again, this is I know a podcast that we've been very excited and looking forward to. BREE: Absolutely. So Kori is a people inclusion strategist, an advocate, a speaker, a writer, a status quo disruptor. Got to love that. Child of God, wife and mother of two curly-haired, wise, energetic, fierce, spitfire daughters. Her family is multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religious and spans multiple nationalities. She brings a fierce love of community and belonging that transcends differences to work, ministry and life. She loves to sing, cook, entertain, dance in the hallways at work, we need a video component of that, and read. Equipping leaders to be inclusive, to interrupt bias and disrupt the status quo. At her day job, she focuses on developing and implementing strategies for individual career and diversity and inclusion success, and helps organizations build bridges across differences and improve inclusion. BREE: When she's not working, she focuses her voice and talent on issues of gender equity and rights, inclusion, and human and civil rights, serving in her church and community, and cherishing her phenomenal tribe and community. She's energized by helping people live their very best lives. Kori was the Director of Strategic Diversity Initiatives for seven years at Shook, Hardy. And then she came over to Seyfarth and is now the Chief Inclusion and Diversity Officer there and oversees their really spectacular wellbeing program, Seyfarth Life, and a whole host of other initiatives we're going to hear about. So Kori, welcome to the podcast. CHRIS: Yay. KORI CAREW: Thank you. I appreciate you inviting me to be on this podcast and also very much the work that you are doing. This conversation of wellbeing for attorneys is such an important conversation. It's one that we probably started having too late, and it's one where diversity and inclusion, there's more work to be done than time. I'm super thankful for all that you do and all that you do to help our profession be better, so thank you very much. BREE: You bet. Kori, I'm going to start off. We ask all of our guests a variation of this question. What experiences in your life are drivers behind your passion for work around diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging and wellbeing? KORI: Thank you for that question. And of course, you're causing me to go down a bit of memory lane. You would think this is an easy question, but it actually is not. It's not as easy because it forces you to look in the rear view mirror and try to understand where the dots connected to where you are. Before I do that, I do want to make one small correction. Seyfarth Life is an incredible initiative at Seyfarth that I am super proud of and one of the things that energized me about joining the firm. It has a steering committee that leads it. It's four partners at the firm, all of whom have a connection to wellbeing and mindfulness. My department and my role actually does not oversee Seyfarth Life, but we do work very closely with them. Because as one of the founding members, Laura Maechtlen noted from the very beginning, there's that intersection between inclusion and diversity and belonging and wellbeing, and the two work very closely together. But my department does not oversee Seyfarth Life. So just wanted to make sure I give credit to the right people. BREE: Absolutely, give credit where it's due. KORI: You know, because they're awesome and they do great work. In fact, if I may brag on them, out of the steering committee members, one of them is the chair of the largest department in the firm and an executive committee member and co-chair of the national diversity and inclusion action team. Oh, wait a minute. No, that's not right. Three are office managing partners. They're part of this steering committee, this leadership group, because they actually practice wellbeing and mindfulness and meditation in their own personal lives and allow it to influence how they lead. So I know Seyfarth didn't pay me to do a promotion, but I felt like I needed to shout some guys out. BREE: Absolutely. KORI: Our talent team helps them quite a bit in terms of organizing programs and handling the administrative and logistic things. Okay. So to answer your question, what are the experiences? I often say this and it is true that when I look at my life in the rear view mirror, how I ended up where I am makes a lot more sense as I connect the dots in ways that I probably couldn't have foreseen. For example, I never intended to be a diversity and inclusion professional. I actually never intended to go to law school. I started my university career as an electrical engineering major. When I came to the U.S., I wanted to build planes. That was my thing. I wanted to be an aeronautical engineer. I wanted to build planes. I loved science. I could spend hours in the lab. One of the best gifts I ever got was a lab coat. My dad had a custom drawing board built for me when I was a teenager that I carried with me everywhere because technical drawing, engineering drawing was one of my top subjects. KORI: So a lot of things make sense in hindsight. I look at my family composition and my sisters and I were all born in different countries. We have different passports. We grew up in Nigeria, a country with over 300 different ethnic groups with different languages and traditions and customs, so there's that. My family is multi-religious, multi-ethnic, multi-national, multi-racial and there's just so much diversity there. You know, in the family tree, there's a granduncle that's a Methodist church bishop, and one that's an Imam. And my grandfather's father was a teacher, was a teacher of the Quran. And so all of that diversity is there in the family, but it probably influenced how my parents raised my sisters and I and how even through childhood, I was always the person who was connecting the dots between similarities between people. And today we would call that cultural fluency, this ability to recognize cultural differences and not judge them but just adapt to them and be able to say, okay, you know what? KORI: It looks to me like person A is looking through a lens that's different than person B, but they're looking at the same thing. So how can I get these two people to be on the same page? So there's that family dynamic. But another thing that happened when I was growing up that I do think influenced me quite a bit. I grew up in Nigeria. Most of my childhood, we had one military dictator after another. So I grew up with coos happening more often than I would prefer. There were times that things broke out into religious violence. You're talking about incidents where a few people are killed or a lot of people are killed and everything goes to standstill, everybody's on edge. You don't leave your home. When the students go on riots because they're protesting something and things get out of hand, you're turning off the lights in your home and sort of huddled together, trying to make sure that you stay together as a family until everything passes over. So that was also something that I grew up around and experiencing. KORI: And then my parents are from Sierra Leone. Sierra Leone is actually my home country. If you ask me where I'm from, I will tell you I was born in Canada, grew up in Nigeria, but I'm from Sierra Leone. Because in my culture, you're where your father's from. So my entire identity has always been that I am from Sierra Leone. In the '90s, Sierra Leone began to experience a very brutal civil war, which calling it a civil war is actually inaccurate. You have a bunch of people with weapons who terrorize the population for 11 years. And it's been one of the most brutal wars that the world has seen at least in recent times. And that impacted my family in the sense that we lost people, in the sense that I hadn't been back to Sierra Leone for a long time. And it kind of started with my mom not feeling it was safe enough for us to go and visit, with grandparents living on the run and being sick and dying and me not seeing them in a long time because of just this state of chaos. KORI: And all of this fueled how I ended up going to law school, wanting to do human rights work, wanting to be a human rights lawyer, feeling as if I learned so much about the American system and the role that the legal profession played in terms of maintaining democracy and freedom and wanting to multiply that. Right. But then I go to law school. I graduate. I fall in love with a boy who I actually started dating in college, and I ended up in Kansas City because I followed a boy. You know, career took a different turn, ended up being a defense lawyer. And then you fast forward to doing an evaluation and me going through a process of saying, okay, I've done a lot of the things I wanted to do. I've achieved a lot of the things I wanted to achieve. I wanted to try cases. I wanted to build this reputation. I wanted to be successful in A, B, C, D. KORI: And I started taking inventory of the things I was passionate about, the skills I developed, the experiences I had and where I was losing time. You know, where was I given my time in community? What were the things that I could lose myself doing in such deep flow that I don't even recognize that time has gone by? And that journey ended up leading me to inclusion and diversity work and I haven't turned back since. There's some aspects of the legal profession I miss. I miss trying cases. I miss solving problems for clients. It may sound like the weirdest thing, but boy, playing around with evidence, rules, and figuring out how to get things in or keep things out is a nerdy love of mine. And so those are just some of the experiences that I would say led me to this love for helping people build bridges and I'm empower people to succeed despite the challenges, and being able to create just a level of cultural fluency amongst groups of people so that we understand how much better we are together as opposed to isolated from one another. So that's a long answer. BREE: Well, what an amazing life you've had to date and an incredible background that informs your work at a depth that I know Chris and I can't even begin to imagine. CHRIS: For sure. Kori, how long have you been more squarely centered on the inclusion and diversity side of things? KORI: I have been for 11 years now full-time diversity. What I realized, you know, somebody asked me a question similar to this, how long have you been doing diversity work, which is different from what I usually hear. I actually did the inventory and realized that, you know, 29 years ago, when I first came to the U.S., that was when I actually started doing presentations. At the time, we called them multiculturalism. We started doing presentations on bridging differences, on being able to understand different cultures and how you navigate it. And so I've been actually teaching on diversity, inclusion, cultural fluency leadership topics now for 29, 30 years. But it being my full-time job, that happened when I left litigation and moved over to Shook, Hardy & Bacon. CHRIS: Okay. I think a good point to maybe start the conversation is, you know, again, your perspective is so unique and informed. For diverse members of the profession, can you talk to our listeners about some of the more challenging aspects of the last couple of years? KORI: Yeah. So the last couple of years have been tough for everyone. This pandemic, it's been brutal and it's impacted us in so many different ways. We've lost our sense of certainty to the extent that we didn't had any. We've lost our ability to have some kind of predictability, something that is a core need, a core need for many of us. Well, not for many of us, for everyone. It's actually a core human need. And so we've been sort of thrown into this whirlwind of uncertainty with no deadline, right? We went from thinking, well, I'll speak for myself. You know, since I'm not a scientist, I foolishly thought, well, maybe in two weeks I'll go back to the office. And then it was a month. And then I thought six weeks. And then I thought for sure by summer 2020 we'd be able to go out and about and things would be quasi under control. And here we are, you know, some 28, 29 months later and we still have COVID. I'm sick right now recovering from COVID after avoiding it for almost 30 months, I get it. KORI: So you have that benchmark that is impacting everyone and the uncertainty that we've seen with everything going on around us. But as with everything, I think people from historically underrepresented and marginalized groups, what happens is the things that... There's this saying that the things, and I'm going to probably say it wrong. And it may be an African American saying, but it's this thing that what gives some people a cold will give others the flu. And so what you've seen then is populations that have been historically marginalized and underrepresented and haven't had access to full equity, had been impacted very differently by the same storm that we're all in. So we're all in the same storm, but we're not in the same boat. We're experiencing it differently. So communities of color, we know got hit by COVID much harder. KORI: And you have that intersection between race, between housing inequity, between education inequity, between healthcare inequity and healthcare access, all of those things coming together to adversely impact some groups more. So if you are someone who is Brown or Black, or from one of these historically marginalized communities, and you are going to work during the pandemic, or you're working from home, you are more likely to have family members who have been directly impacted by COVID, right? You are more likely to have lost family members. You also, generally speaking are more likely to be in a position where you are in an extended family situation where you are responsible for more people than just yourself. You know, one of the things that we know, for example, that impacts generational wealth is that those of us from communities of color oftentimes are responsible not just for ourselves, but for extended family members. KORI: So you have that dynamic playing, then you have the racial pandemic, which has been going on, but in the last two years have come to fevered pitch. And so the daily trauma of dealing with racism and microaggressions then gets compounded by all the incidents, George Floyd, Charles Cooper, and all the other incidents that have been bombarding us from our television screens, from the news reports, from articles. And so now all of a sudden everything is right in your face and you're dealing with all of it at the same time. And so those are some of the things that are professionals from "diverse communities," from underrepresented marginalized communities have been dealing with. And our reserves have been tapped into and overstretched to where for some of us, it feels like it's been just too much. BREE: Absolutely. It's unimaginable just how much to carry on in that space. All of the things that you just described, this litany of horrors is on top of just the day-to-day difficulty as been expressed to me, and reading in my friends of people of color, just the microaggressions and just how hard it is. Just take away pandemic and everything else and the racial reckoning, how hard it can be just to get through the day. I can't even imagine. It is absolutely just too, too much. Kori, there's so much to unpack here. I wanted to kind of pushing us along here talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion and talking about belonging and overlaying that. I mean, when I started looking in the legal profession, we talk about DEI, it was diversity then DEI, and now we're getting into some of the really, to me, needy and interesting stuff around belonging. I know that you created a belonging project at Seyfarth. Could you talk to us about the importance of that, and also about this project that you got started at Seyfarth? KORI: Sure. Let me separate them out. Belonging is a conversation that more and more of us are having, and it is fairly new to the conversation when you're talking about diversity and inclusion. It started with we talked about diversity, and then we started talking about diversity and inclusion, and now we've included equity and belonging. Belonging goes to that sense, that feeling that each of us have when we belong and we feel like we are part of a group and that we belong to something that is bigger than us. It is also a core human need. Brené Brown has this phrase that she says that we have three irreducible needs, and they are to be loved, to connect, and to belong. What we know from the research is that when we don't have belonging, it impacts us. It is wired into our DNA to belong to something. KORI: So we will either have healthy belonging, or we will seek a belonging that may not be healthy and may not be good. This is where you can queue in hate groups and cult because they will do anything to belong. We will also conform to fit in so that we have a quasi sense of belonging. The problem though is that when we don't have belonging, we actually see physiological, physical, spiritual, mental, psychological impact on our wellbeing. It impacts our sense of health. Forget our sense of health. It actually impacts our health, right? We know that exclusion and the lack of belonging actually results in increased depression, increased high blood pressure, increased diabetes. Incidentally, a lot of the same things that racial trauma and microaggressions also causes on the human body. And so if we don't have that sense of belonging, then we are not able to actually actualize that sense of inclusion where everyone is able to be leveraged and their differences and their strengths leveraged so that they can succeed as they want to succeed. KORI: And without belonging, you don't get wellbeing. But conversely, without wellbeing, you can't cultivate that sense of belonging. And so those two things are intertwined as well as this concept of engagement, which also is in the mix, right? You can't create engagement unless you have social connection and belonging. And so all of these things come together. Unfortunately, in many of our organizations, they're treated as separate, right? In many organizations, you have the wellbeing function being managed in a way that it doesn't speak to diversity, doesn't speak to belonging at all. So imagine now we just talked about COVID and we talked about how COVID has impacted everyone. Then imagine you're developing a wellness initiative or a wellbeing initiative and you're not stopping to think, oh, wait a minute, because of diversity, this pandemic has impacted people in different ways. KORI: And so I can't just trot out a wellbeing program without factoring in diversity and how diversity has resulted in different people experiencing this pandemic differently. Similarly, we fail when we try to, for example, have a wellbeing initiative that doesn't stop and think, oh, wow, we're not talking about racial trauma. We're not talking about microaggressions. We're not talking about the impact of implicit bias and exclusion on the psychological and physical wellbeing of the people in our organization. And so what's happening is these concepts are tied together, but in our organizations and most of our organizations, we're not doing DEI and incorporating wellbeing and we're not doing wellbeing incorporating DEIB. Instead, we're acting as if they're completely separate and they're not. CHRIS: I mean, I think it goes without saying, we, I think as human beings, sometimes we compartmentalize of there's this and then there's that. I think that from the infancy of the institute, I think we've emphasized the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion as part of, has to flow through everything, every lens that we look at from the wellbeing perspective. But I have to admit, it's been more challenging than I think, than we've appreciated because sometimes we look a little bit myopically at some of these issues without broadening our lens. That's the perspective that I think that you can bring our listeners that, again, this intersection of diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging with wellbeing, I guess I'd be curious on just, how can we merge? Right? Because again, even the fact that there's organizations that work over here and organizations that work over here, and we really should be just the coalition and the umbrella and the totality of how it all works together is something that I don't know that we appreciate the magnitude of. KORI: Well, and the only way we can appreciate the magnitude is if we have these honest conversations. But we also have to have the conversations around the structural and the cultural underpinnings, right? How do we have conversations about wellbeing that take into consideration differences? That take into consideration, okay, we're telling people, hey, we have therapy or we have EAP, or we have whatever the organization offers. But how do you do that and also acknowledge that for some communities that there is a stigma around maybe going to a therapist? How do you have that conversation with those communities? Or that racial bias and racial aggressions are having an impact on people, but you have an entire generation of Black people, for example, who have survived by plowing through all the challenges that the world has put in front of us. And to sit down and talk about the way in which racism has impacted us is asking us to put our shields down, which means opening up ourselves to attack, which means possibly being accused of playing the race card. Right? KORI: All of things that you may have grown up in a time where we just didn't talk about that in mixed company, we only talked about that with each other. And so there are all these layers, all these layers. I recently listened to a friend of mine, Ratu Basin, and she was talking about how it feels for her as someone of Indian heritage to see how much yoga, for example, has been whitewashed. There's so many conversations to be had even in the wellbeing space, even when we're talking to people about things like self-care. Well, what are you recommending? Because some of the things we tell people to do for self-care, go get a massage, who can afford that? What culture support that kind of self-care? And is that really self-care or is that treating a symptom? Should self-care and wellbeing be about a way of life and a way of working such that we don't need these emergency [inaudible 00:32:26] like solutions to fix the symptoms, right? KORI: And that's the big conversation and that's the conversation I'm hearing some lawyers begin to ask where they say, the organization says they care about wellbeing, but we're getting these other messages that say it's productivity and hours and billables that matter, right? How do we shift the culture and how we're embracing these topics in a way that makes it more meaningful? I just realized, I didn't even answer your second question about the belonging project, but yeah, this is the stuff that to me, I see a lot of potential for us to have really good conversations that can lead to solutions that are more inclusive of a diverse profession. BREE: Kori, you're clearly such a thought leader and a visionary in this space. Can you talk a little bit about how do we get change to occur in a profession, the legal profession that is so reluctant to change? Even more so than general society. Where do you see the bright points of really being able to make some change? KORI: Can you repeat that question? BREE: Yeah. Just about how do we get change to occur in the legal profession? You know, this is a profession that is just so stayed and slow and bound up in tradition. This is the way we do it, that sort of thing. And here you are with these fabulous ideas, working with a very large law firm, having come from another very large law firm so you're in this space. What are your ideas for actually getting real change to occur? Where are the pressure points, I guess? KORI: Well, I think some of the pressure points are actually external. You asked me a question earlier about the last two years, something that I didn't mention that has impacted a lot. It's impacting individuals from underrepresented groups, but it's also impacting our organizations. Is this fake cultural war that is also going on, you know, regardless of what political party you're in, I think we can acknowledge that for the last six years, there has been an attack on everything that we are trying to accomplish in diversity and inclusion. White is now Black, Black is now white. And if we are in a state of being, for example, where I'll use Florida as an example where someone can say, we want to ban any training if it makes someone uncomfortable. What you're essentially saying is let's keep the status quo the way it is, even if the status quo supports white supremacy. KORI: Even if the status quo is inequitable. You would rather keep the status quo than have an uncomfortable conversation. When it comes to the legal profession, in particular, law firms, because of how we are constructed. A law firm essentially has multiple owners. It's not like a corporation that has a board of directors and has shareholders. Let's say you have a law firm of a thousand people and 300 of them are partners. You have 300 people running around who think that everybody should have an equal say in every single decision. It's one of the reasons that law firms function so differently from other companies and why decision making is so different. Everything we do is different. You know, we put people in leadership positions not because they're leaders, but because they're great trial attorneys or they're great business generators or whatever, whatever the criteria is, but rarely is it because someone actually is a good leader. KORI: And so we have this culture that we have built that really makes it difficult for us to have real hard conversations on the things that really matter, on the things that really can make change. So imagine that law firm now sitting in the last six years and even more so in the last three years. I can tell you when it comes to diversity, inclusion, many of us are throwing our hands up and saying, so how in the hell are we supposed to have this conversation then? If you're saying, oh, we can't talk about white privilege because someone says, oh, that offends me. Or we can't talk about systemic racism because someone's going to say, oh, wait a minute, if you say systemic racism is real, then that's anti-American. So we are living in a time where the terms racism, the terms CRT have been completely redefined to where they mean nothing that even resembles what they actually mean. KORI: And then we're over here arguing about these fictitious decisions, these fictitious definitions, and we're not actually doing the hard work that needs to be done, right. Because if you won't even acknowledge that systemic racism is real, then how do we evaluate the systems to see where we may be having inequitable results and then changing those systems? Because if you deny a thing exists, then we can't even address it. BREE: Absolutely. KORI: And so that's probably one of the biggest challenges I see, but also the biggest opportunity. And if anything is going to change when it comes to diversity, we have got to get more courageous about having difficult conversations, but conversations that are worthwhile, they are important. Nothing about creating equity is comfortable and cozy and touchy-feely, it's hard work. It requires us to say some things that we maybe may not have faced before, but we don't get to change what we won't face, what we won't acknowledge, and what we won't be honest about. It's like, you can't write a new end into the story if you won't acknowledge the truth of the story. That's the whirlwind that I think we are in now, not just as a profession, but as a country and a society. BREE: Absolutely. What an incredibly difficult place to be? Yeah, go ahead, Chris. CHRIS: Well, I was just going to say, I want to unpack that more. Let's do this. Let's take a quick break and come back because I mean, my burning question and Kori began to sort of thinking about it, which is what's the pathway to better, more productive, honest conversations, right? Because I think that you're right. The question is, how do we create the environments for ultimately that societal discussion to occur in the most productive way? So let's take a quick break and we'll come right back. — ADVERTISEMENT: Meet VERA, your firm's Virtual Ethics Risk Assessment Guide developed by ALPS. VERA's purpose is to help you uncover risk management blind spots from client intake to calendaring, to cybersecurity, and more. VERA: I require only your honest input to my short series of questions. I will offer you a summary of recommendations to provide course corrections if needed, and to keep your firm on the right path. Generous and discreet, VERA is a free and anonymous risk management guide from ALPS to help firms like yours be their best. Visit VERA at alpsinsurance.com/vera.   — CHRIS: Okay. We are back with Kori Carew, our esteemed guests and the chief inclusion and diversity officer at Seyfarth Shaw. Kori, we were just getting into the, I think the discussion. I feel like we're going deeper than even I had thought we would in the conversation, which I love. You know, as we think now about we need to have the honest conversations, right. And so I would just be curious on your opinion as what's the pathway to get there. If we appreciate that there's a lot of noise and the volume levels are high, and there's a lot of yelling, frankly, on both sides of the equation. What's the pathway toward problem solving, thoughtful discussion, intentional discussion that ultimately advances the dialogue? KORI: Thank you very much for that question. Honestly, it's one I've been thinking a lot about. You know, I did do a TEDx in 2017 and the impetus for that TED really was that question that you just asked, which was, there's a lot of yelling and not enough dialogue that allows us to move into action. Since I gave that TED, I've sort of watched what's been going on in organizations and in the country. I don't think I would change anything about that TED, except that there are a few more things that I would emphasize. One of the first things that we have to do if we truly want to make progress, and I'm going to steal a Nigerian thing, tell the truth and shame the devil. We are avoiding being honest with ourself about so many things. Whether it is just being honest about the experiences people have in the organization, or being honest about where the gaps are, or being honest about what the failures are, or even individual honesty. KORI: That self-awareness to say, you know Kori, you talk a lot about wellbeing and you talk a lot about leadership, but the reason you talk about those things is because you were searching for something that you did not have in the leaders that you grew up under, right? So you were trying to create something for others that you didn't have, but you are also trying to create it for yourself. And there are many days that you totally suck. There are many days that you are making very bad wellbeing decisions. There are days that you are not as inclusive as you would want to be, but it's okay. And the only way you're going to get better is by acknowledging where you're not doing it right. Now, think about that when we're talking about gender or race or LGBT inclusion or disability inclusion. If we as individuals and we as organizations are not willing to be honest about our history, what has happened and what is happening, then we don't even have a starting point. KORI: And the way that we do that is very, very cliché. Getting comfortable with what is uncomfortable. I remember when I first started saying that, when I was at Shook, Hardy & Bacon and it wasn't even a thing many people were saying, and now people say it so often that it has lost its meaning. But it truly is the beginning point. And in too many of our organizations, we are shutting down any discussion or any movement in the name of trying to get consensus, or in trying to water things so much that they're meaningless, right? Or being so hyperworried about future possible hypothetical litigation that somebody may have over something that they don't like that they heard as opposed to possible litigation over people who do not feel like they are being treated equitably. You know, it's like we have to choose our heart. And so it's either the heart of sitting in the discomfort and learning things we may not want to learn, challenging ourselves, reaching deep to say, you know what? I don't really like that. KORI: When you talk to me about Christian privilege, this is a true story. Okay. True story. A [inaudible 00:46:22] of mine talked about Christian privilege. We're talking about something. She said, "Yeah, but there's also Christian privilege and people never talk about that." And can I admit to you that I was like, "Oh, is she for real? We're talking about racism and she's talking about Christian privilege." That was my initial reaction. But I sat with it. You know what? She was right. Because she was Pagan and I'm Christian. I've never had to use PTO for Christmas. My holidays are respected, they are recognized, they are centered, they are prioritized. But other people in this country who are not Christian do not have those privileges. Now that's a benign example because it's not one that makes people get as upset as some of the other topics. KORI: But the first step has to be a commitment to sit through the discomfort, sit through what may rub you wrong, and acknowledge that just because something is uncomfortable or just because something offends you does not mean the thing is wrong or it is offensive. And in many of our organizations, we haven't even gotten past that first part. Then the next part has to be a commitment to learn more. We have to operationalize being able to say to each other, tell me more, and not just, oh, I didn't like that training, or I didn't like what I was learning. But to say to yourself internally, okay, I didn't like that. But rather than projecting how I'm feeling it in this moment, I'm going to put myself in the position of saying, tell me more, help me understand why that bothered you, help me understand why you feel that way. Because until we're willing to do that, we're not going to learn. KORI: And without knowledge, we have no opportunity for growth. Growth comes with new knowledge. Growth comes with practicing new skill sets. Growth comes with trying things that you haven't done before. But if you're more invested in protecting the status quo than you are fighting for change, then the status quo will always win. And the status quo right now, it's not working for a lot of people from a lot of underrepresented and marginalized communities. Those are some of the things that have to happen. Oh, Chris, something else I want to add. Both sides. We got to talk about this both sides thing. Not every opinion and argument is equal, and that's something else that we're not willing to address head on. We've allowed inclusion to be so redefined that some people think it means anything and everything is of equal footing, right. KORI: But someone saying in the workplace, we need to be more inclusive of people with disabilities is not the same as someone saying, I don't think disabled people should have to work here. And sometimes what is crouching in is people want to hide behind inclusion to spew hate or bigotry or an excuse not to make the change and growth that is consistent with the so-called values of our organizations. I'll pause there because you're about [inaudible 00:50:05]. BREE: Yeah. I just want to comment to our listeners Kori's TED Talk, just in your browser, put in Kori Carew and TED Talk. I really encourage people to check it out. It is powerful and profound. So Kori, I'm going to ask you a question here that we also tend to ask this sometimes near the end, if you could look for, I don't know, five years or even a decade. If we can do a decent job around changing hearts and minds and attitudes around diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging and wellbeing too, hopefully, how would the profession be different? What do you want to see? KORI: My goodness, my goodness, my goodness. Excuse me. That cough came up. If we could actually accomplish all these things that we've been talking about for 20 years, we would see leadership teams that are more humble in their approach, leadership teams that are people-centric, organizations that are listening to employees and actually care about what employees want. We would no longer be having conversations as if it's either you focus on the bottom line or you focus on employee happiness. Like we will understand that without happy employees who are engaged and doing fulfilling and meaningful work, we actually don't have a great bottom line to talk about. Right? Our organizations would look like inclusion and wellbeing and belonging, it's just part of the business strategy. It's not this separate siloed thing. It's not this thing that we talk about when we are worried about how the woman or the gays may react. Right. KORI: But it's just something that is operationalized into our values, into our competencies, into how we evaluate people, into how we promote people, and that we are constantly in humility, learning from each other. Right. So that even when somebody who's a chief inclusion and diversity officer, here's a phrase and someone says, "Did you realize that that was ableist?" That I would say, "I didn't. Tell me more." And once you tell me more, I changed my language, because we understand that we're always going to be moving. We're always going to be learning something new and there's always an opportunity to be better. And if we do that, we will also see different representation at all levels. We will actually have critical mass of diversity in our organizations. And then I would be unemployed. CHRIS: I was going to wrap up with this though, Kori, like if I was to serve up to you 500 managing partners, that were, again, I think one of the things that you've already mentioned is every individual in an organization is either additive or perhaps distracts from the culture that you're ultimately trying to create. A lot of the wellbeing discussion is about connecting and emphasizing wellbeing with decision makers and those who set the tone of organizations. And so my question to you is this, if I served up 500 managing partners of all sizes of firms around the country and they came and Kori was the keynote, what would be your message to them? KORI: My message to them would be that they are ridiculously in charge, that things happen in their organizations because they allow it, or they create it. And that by choosing to focus a hundred percent on their inclusive leadership skills and up in their ability to interrupt bias, to be culturally fluent, they could transform their organizations because where the leader goes, everyone else follows. BREE: Right. CHRIS: That's great. That's awesome. Well, again, Kori, you have certainly cultivated my curiosity, which I know is one of the things that you strongly advocate for. Couldn't be prouder to have you on the podcast and the sharing of your perspective. We got to get you more platforms for you to be able to shout loudly about these particular issues, because again, we got a lot of work to do, right. We know that there's a lot to be done in terms of realizing the potential of this profession, to realizing the potential of historically underrepresented and marginalized lawyers within our profession. Bree, I think that we all would agree that even as we pursue our wellbeing mission, that so much more has to be done on the diversity, equity, and inclusion perspective that integrates in the intersection there between those two that lanes need to merge in a much more substantive way. KORI: Thank you. CHRIS: Thank you, Kori. KORI: I appreciate it. I appreciate you having me. I appreciate you allowing Justin to come and hold my hand because she's my blinky today. I appreciate you inviting us to talk about what we're doing at Seyfarth and just my perspective as an individual separate from Seyfarth. Again, I've said this before, the work you're doing is so critically important. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for everything that you do to promote wellbeing in the profession. So important. CHRIS: Awesome. Well, again, thanks for joining us. We will be back with the podcast probably in a couple weeks with our executive director, Jennifer DiSanza, which we are so excited to be having her join us as we talk about the future of where this movement is going. Thanks again, Kori. And to all our friends out there, we will be back in a couple weeks.

Cyber threats are evolving almost more rapidly than agencies can keep up. The FedHeads Robert Shea and guest host Charles Cooper welcome Senior Director and FedHeads fan Charlie Baisley and his colleague Chief Public Policy Officer of Trellix Tom Gann to give their perspectives on the policies and practices emerging in cybersecurity.

In Episode 130, I was blessed to interview author Charles Cooper about the wrath of God. Charles does an incredible job describing the many ways we see God's wrath in both the Old and New Testaments, as well as giving us a lot to chew on for the times to come.  Charles' book: The Elect and the Great Tribulation - https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Elect-Great-Tribulation-Interpretation/dp/0981527620/ref=sr_1_1?crid=26LWW3A58SECW&keywords=charles+cooper+god%27s+elect&qid=1654388939&s=books&sprefix=charles+cooper+god%27s+elect%2Cstripbooks%2C86&sr=1-1  Charles' YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/user/PrewrathRapture/featured  Prewrath Radio Online - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/prewrath-radio-online/id260335041  Faithful Witness: The Early Church's Theology of Martyrdom    https://www.amazon.com/Faithful-Witness-Churchs-Theology-Martyrdom/dp/B09K21NSPC/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=          Phil's Website – https://philsbaker.com Patreon Page - patreon.com/philsbaker Apple Podcasts Channel - Reclaiming the Faith Contact me – emailphilsbaker@gmail.com BDK - www.omegafrequency.com The Ante-Nicene Writings - https://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/more-CD-ANF.html

Michelle Sager, GAO Managing Director of Strategic Issues joins Robert Shea and celebrity guest host Charles Cooper of Signal Group to give the FedHeads the secret sauce for agencies' getting off the biennial High-Risk list. You can find the GAO's Key Practices to Successfully Address High-Risk Areas and Remove Them from the List full report here: https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-22-105184.pdf

Robert Shea is joined by a new celebrity guest host Charles Cooper, Managing Director of Signal Group! They chat about the future in Congress and Robert Shea offers his review of the Netflix series The G Word.