Podcasts about Bash

While Cav is off on his honeymoon, Faust and Greg fill you in with everything that went down at the Bash of the Century!  To hear the entire show, including the Faust's Best Man Speech, sign up to patreon.com/LingusMafia. Plus you can get WWE and AEW review shows, show archive, bonus shows and video versions of the show. Stay connected: All our social media (@LingusMafia) links can be found here: https://linktr.ee/lingusmafia Buy our new shirt! belowthecollar.com/LingusMafia   Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code LINGUS at Manscaped.com. 

Rebel Force Radio kicked off Star Wars Celebration Anaheim 2022 on the Rooftop of the Grand Legacy at the Fifth. Special guests: Steve Sansweet, Daniel Logan, Dan Madsen, Stephen Costantino, Kyle Newman, and the RFR Puppet Theater!

It's Radio Ronin time!!!! Gregg is back, LIVE and direct from the island of Naxsos in Greece! His vacation is going great and he's got a ton of amazing stories to tell!A few weeks ago, Cindy "Queen of Bash" told Chunga, Chandler and Gregg to check out a new show on Paramount + called "The Offer". Little did they know that she was recommending something that Chunga says is "one of the best things he's ever seen--ever". Have you started watching it yet?! Obi Wan Kenobi comes out tomorrow!!! Are you going to stay up late and watch the first two episodes, in the middle of the night?!? Heck yes you are!!! Plus, Gregg has another Halfway to Halloween movie shout out! This one's about an amusement park!! YES!!! Listen now!!!

Hold on to your hats folks, we finally made it to the big one. The identity of the third man is revealed in this game changing episode.of the Year of Duke and Rogue Podcast. We go back in time and take your guesses or picks regarding the identity of the third man in a segment that helps make this episode the longest one that we've done so far. WCW is loaded with talent from all over the world but a New World Order of wrestling is getting ready to take over. Grab your favorite inflatable and join us for Bash at the Beach. Jaded Wrasslin' Merch: prowrestlingtees.com/jadedwrasslin Follow the family on Twitter: @Jadedwrasslin @yearofpod @totspod Jaded Wrasslin' Social Media! https://linktr.ee/Jadedwrasslin --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/jadedwrasslin/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/jadedwrasslin/support

It's Baptism Bash Sunday—what a moving time of celebrating God's transforming grace in the lives of so many of our family members! The parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15 portrays an apt description of each of our lives. When we sin and go our own way, our Father is beckoning us back with open arms. He is unimaginably better than we could ever guess. Thank You, Jesus, that You are always thrilled to welcome us into Your embrace!

After a week off, we welcome you back to another episode of Black Seinfeld. Bash, and Gio explain their absence, plus catch up on what eachother is doing in their lives. They discuss the massacre in Buffalo. Finally, after a 5 year hiatus Kendrick Lamar returns with a double LP. What are Bash. and Gio's thoughts? Tune in to find out!

On this week's Musky 360 podcast,  Steve Paul and Jay Esse have on special guest Duff Thury from Supernatural big baits,  owner of the unbelievably productive mattlock and headlock musky fishing trolling crankbaits. These lures have virtually revolutionized musky trolling in a short period of time and the process of the manufacturing and design is amazing. More q and a is covered along with cameos from Pete Maina, musky fishing legend detailing this summers Musky Shop Bash!

We talk it all in this one! Sonic V Mario. Our Signing with ROB LIEFELD on JUNE 11th! Bash in the Boro with DANIEL WARREN JOHNSON and FIRE STAR PRO WRESTLING on JUNE 18th! Listener questions!

Do I need to learn how to write code? What are the types of program languages required in DevOps? What are the pros and cons of each? Will, Jonathan, and Jillian discuss the progressions through programming languages and their insights and opinions with each. Learn about Bash, Go, Perl, Python, Python 2, Python 3, JavaScript, Node.js, Rust, Ruby, and Java. At the end, they provide their final concluding thoughts and share their top picks. Sponsors Top End Devs (https://topenddevs.com/) Raygun | Click here to get started on your free 14-day trial (https://raygun.com/?utm_medium=podcast&utm_source=adventuresdevops&utm_campaign=devchat&utm_content=homepage) Coaching | Top End Devs (https://topenddevs.com/coaching) Links How to program with Bash: Syntax and tools (https://opensource.com/article/19/10/programming-bash-syntax-tools) The Go Programming Language (https://go.dev/) The Perl Programming Language - www.perl.org (https://www.perl.org/) Welcome to Python.org (https://www.python.org/) JavaScript.com (https://www.javascript.com/) Node.js (https://nodejs.org/en/) Rust (https://www.rust-lang.org/) Ruby (https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/) Java | Oracle (https://www.java.com/en/) Picks Jillian- The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories (https://amzn.to/3lrUtCt) Jonathan- Obviously Awesome (https://amzn.to/3Lx7aGS) Jonathan- neverworkintheory.org (https://neverworkintheory.org/) Jonathan- The Tiny DevOps Guy (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5UfX0EgUWlcdQ2RDsq_fcA) Will- Learning Go (https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/learning-go/9781492077206/) Will- DevOps for Developers (https://devopsfordevelopers.io/)

It's July 2009; Adam Sandler stars in ‘Funny People', the last episode of Reno 911! would air on Comedy Central and in the WWE, Punk and Hardy are arguing over eyeballs! This is Just Say No: CM Punk vs Jeff Hardy Part Two   In this episode we pick up from the controversy that took place at The Bash up until their match-up at Night of Champions.   Edit: It works this time!

The Ottawa Senators dealt with off-ice drama and on-ice growing pains. Stephen Ellsworth of the Lace 'Em Up podcast joins Victor and Jesse to break down the pros. We talk Brady Tkachuk, Drake Batherson, Josh Norris, Tim Stuetzle, Connor Brown, Mathieu Joseph, Alex Formenton, Colin White, Parker Kelly, Thomas Chabot, Lassi Thomson, Artem Zub, Erik Brannstrom, Anton Forsberg, Matt Murray, Filip Gustavsson, Mads Sogaard, and Leevi Merilainen. Dan Tiffany comes on with "Tiff's takes" on the goalie corps. In the Dynasty Dig, Victor and the FHL Scouts Cam, Caleb, and Liam cover Jake Sanderson, Ridly Greig, and Shane Pinto (with more bonus coverage of Mads Sogaard). Our show is presented by Fantrax.com and proud to be a part of the Dobber Podcast Network. Email fantasyhockeylife@gmail.com and ask to join our free discord. Join our Patreon at Patreon.com/fantasyhockeylife for rankings, bonus podcasts, in-depth prospect reports with video, show notes and more. Listen and subscribe wherever podcasts are posted - and give us 5 stars! We want to be your best place to talk about the game of dynasty fantasy hockey. Explanation of "Tiers:" FORWARDS 1 - ppg+ scorer or 60-80 point scorer with ELITE BASH 2 - 70-80 point scorer with below average BASH or 60-70 point scorer with above average/elite BASH 3 - 60-70 point scorer with below average BASH or 50-60 point scorer with above average/elite BASH DEFENSE 1 - 50+ scorer or 40+ point scorer with ELITE BASH 2 - 40+ point scorer with below average BASH or 30+ point scorer with above average/elite BASH 3 - 30+ point scorer with below average BASH or sub 30 point scorer with above average/elite BASH

Celebration Anaheim looms, Obi-Wan Kenobi approaches, and news is busier than the snack bar at Chalmuns on Meileron Fruit Fridays as Making Tracks Episode 137 delves deep into the latest galactic happenings. We look at interviews with Ewan McGregor and Hayden Christensen talking Obi-Wan Kenobi, welcome back the Star Wars Livestream at Celebration and find out more about The BASH 2022, chat Bryce Dallas Howard and her potential future Star Wars gigs, catch up with Dee Tails at Star Wars Fan Fun Day 2022 and spice it up with random chat and thoughts on the penultimate pre-Celebration Anaheim episode of Making Tracks. Remember to tune in to Good Morning Tatooine, LIVE Sunday evenings at 9.00pm UK, 4.00pm Eastern and 1.00pm Pacific on Facebook and YouTube and check out Fantha Tracks Radio on Fridays at 7.00pm UK for new episodes of The Fantha From Down Under, Planet Leia, Desert Planet Discs, Start Your Engines and Canon Fodder. You can contact any of our shows and send in your listeners questions by emailing radio@fanthatracks.com or comment on our social media feeds: www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ7LZotr3rQhVJwpO3b2ELw www.instagram.com/fanthatracks www.facebook.com/FanthaTracks www.twitter.com/FanthaTracks www.pinterest.co.uk/fanthatracks/ www.fanthatracks.tumblr.com/ www.tiktok.com/@fanthatracks

Joining the podcast this week is Bash Kazi, CEO of Cyber Range Solutions. He shares perspective on the importance of experiential and continuous training across red team, blue team and threat hunting and creating real world environments to learn based on existing and emerging threats. He also shares some stories from the field such as a voter hacking simulation won by a 15-year-old student as well as available resources and organizations that provide veterans a place to learn cyber skills for low or no cost. CEO, Cyber Range Solutions Mubashir G. Kazi is the CEO of Cyber Range Solutions. He has over 25 years of global experience with governments and Fortune 500 companies (3M, Exxon & Xerox) in the areas of engineering, security, Information Technology and program management. Mr. Kazi holds graduate and post-graduate degrees in Engineering from McGill University in Montreal, Canada and has extensive post-graduate research and training in Advanced Project, Risk Management and Program Management skills specific to the fields of engineering and technology management from Stanford University. Mubashir has also served as a management consultant on several security programs around the world (Qatar, Israel, UAE, Pakistan, Afghanistan and USA). His expertise includes national border security, counter narcotics technology development & deployment, engineering management, cyber security training and international program management. Mubashir was the Architect and Program Manager supervising the design, management and execution for a program involving the deployment of several thousand personnel for the development of a National Data Repository, Border Security, Machine Readable Passport and Electronic Voter Registration system for the Ministry of Interior, Government of Pakistan. Mubashir has architected the creation of one of the largest citizen data repositories and overseen the national census data gathering initiative to document over 100 million individuals. For links and resources discussed in this episode, please visit our show notes at https://www.forcepoint.com/govpodcast/e181

On this addition of CanardCast, we depart from our usual format of interviewing someone for you and instead, just present you with a conversation that took place the large comfortable guest area at the Fernandez Bay Resort on Cat Island with a cool breeze flowing thru and the white sand and surf just steps away. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/rutancoba/support

Who said #wrestling isn't real. 73 year old #ricflair getting back in the ring in July.  @mets lose first series of season.  23-13 great start.  @yankees 25-9. Bash their schedule if you want but you can only beat who you play.  @reds don't allow a hit and still lose to the @pittsburghpirates 1-0. And only pitched 8 innings so it's not an official #nohitter@nyrangers #artemipanarin GW in OT over @penguins and they advance to 2nd round of #stanleycupplayoffs for first time since 2017. @nhlflames beat @lakings in OT and next up is #battleofalberta vs @edmontonoilers for 1st time since 2015.  #game7 yesterday in #nbaplayoffs were both duds.  @celtics blew out @bucks behind 27 by #robertwilliams and #giannisantetokounmpo really missed #khrismiddleton yesterday.  I picked #devinbooker to outplay #lukadoncic yesterday and at the half Luka had 27 of the @dallasmavs 57 points while Booker had 2 of the @suns 27. It got real ugly.  How do you not show up for a game 7?  #patrickbeverley no love lost for #cp3 either. #nbalottery tomorrow.  

The Israel haters are out in full force, blaming the Jewish State for the death of Al-Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu-Akleh, despite the fact that she was most likely killed by PA gunmen in Jenin. Even if Israel accidentally killed the journalist, her death is being exploited as a propaganda tool like no other similar case before it. On this week's Israel Uncensored with Josh Hasten, Josh discusses how Hollywood celebrities, and radical politicians from both the EU and US, are on board the Israel-bashing train. At the same time the IDF and other security forces are working around the clock to thwart Hamas and PA incited terrorism.

Allyssa is out this week but Hannah and Cullen are joined by Bry (Snapchat: Bryytime) for this pretty decent episode featuring another one of Glee's half-baked takes on racism, Kurt experiencing every aspect of the cis male gay experience, and two Tina mentions. Also Rachel has a decent conflict for once. Bry has watched Glee like 8 times putting us to shame as fake Gleeks. Follow Gleeboot on social media! IG: @gleebootpod TW: @gleebootpod Tumblr: gleebootpod.tumblr.com ________________________________________ Gleeboot is hosted and produced by: Cullen Callaghan (IG: @culleneverafter) Allyssa Swearingen (IG: @a.m.swearingen) Hannah Sylvester This episode was edited by Allyssa Swearingen. “Gleeboot Harmony Theme” performed by Cullen, Allyssa and Hannah

Dilz runs it solo and chats about the long awaited Poll 76 blog, GIM changes and events, and the opening the PVP Discord Call us on Speakpipe Join the community discord: www.Discord.gg/TheWilderness  You can support the show at: www.Buymeacoffee.com/dilz  www.Patreon.com/TheWildernessPodcast  Come hangout in-game in our clan Wild Get in touch with us at TheWildernessPodcast@gmail.com

The Philadelphia Flyers faltered, fortunately friend of the program TJ Branson of the Five Hole Fantasy Hockey Podcast does not. We go through the pro roster, including Cam Atkinson, Travis Konecny, Kevin Hayes, Sean Couturier, Joel Farabee, James van Riemsdyk, Scott Laughton, Oskar Lindblom, Morgan Frost, Owen Tippett, Ryan Ellis, Ivan Provarov, Rasmus Ristolainen, Can York, Travis Sanheim, Ronnie Attard, Carter Hart, Martin Jones, and Ivan Fedotov. Dan Tiffany brings "Tiff's Takes" on all these goalies and Felix Sandstrom. In the Dynasty Dig, we take on Bobby Brink, Connor McClennon, and Emil Andrae. Mason Black (@NHLRankKing) brings twitter poll results comparing these prospects to others that may be on your waiver wire.FHL Scout Jarno brings some great insights on the prospects and bonus material and, just for fun, on Juuso Parssinen too! Our show is presented by Fantrax.com and proud to be a part of the Dobber Podcast Network. Email fantasyhockeylife@gmail.com and ask to join our free discord. Join our Patreon at Patreon.com/fantasyhockeylife for rankings, bonus podcasts, in-depth prospect reports with video, show notes and more. Listen and subscribe wherever podcasts are posted - and give us 5 stars! We want to be your best place to talk about the game of dynasty fantasy hockey. Explanation of "Tiers:" FORWARDS 1 - ppg+ scorer or 60-80 point scorer with ELITE BASH 2 - 70-80 point scorer with below average BASH or 60-70 point scorer with above average/elite BASH 3 - 60-70 point scorer with below average BASH or 50-60 point scorer with above average/elite BASH DEFENSE 1 - 50+ scorer or 40+ point scorer with ELITE BASH 2 - 40+ point scorer with below average BASH or 30+ point scorer with above average/elite BASH 3 - 30+ point scorer with below average BASH or sub 30 point scorer with above average/elite BASH.

Live Recorded Set from VirtualDJ Radio ClubZone

Let's talk about areas in your business where you may be spending money on things that aren't benefiting you. You may not have considered that various stages of business require different investments. When you understand what will best serve you at each stage of your growth, you achieve a couple of things: First, you don't use up available dollars in a scattered way – wasting money if you will. Instead, you spend money in areas that will truly help you grow your handmade business based on where you are in the development and growth cycle. What's In This Bash Party? Free Training on money mistakes commonly made at the different stages of a handmade business. This training builds directly on the training in Bash #1 the https://giftbizunwrapped.com/episodes/5-gift-biz-growth-stages (5 Gift Biz Growth Stages).  Q&A with Bash attendees Showcases - attendees share their upcoming events, unique collaborations, and discount promo codes!

Steve Paul and Jay Esse dive deep into early season musky fishing questions on this week's Musky360 podcast.  With updates on recent Canadian flooding, clear water deep musky fishing tactics, and even early season musky trolling. Does size matter on open water fish and why?

Hey Panelers! The next episode we will have a finale coverage of Moon Knight. But this episode is going to be centered around Marks experience as well as other people's experience at Jay and Silent Bob's Secret Stash 25th Anniversary Bash in Red Bank New Jersey. Listen to Mark, Ben Elmore, Daniel Elmore, and Carey Sanders as they discuss their experience with meeting the one and only Kevin Smith himself as well as everyone that was in the original Clerks Movie and especially the new Clerks 3 movie that will be out sometime in 2022. We discuss our favorite moments of the weekend, Our experience with the cast of Clerks and Clerks 3, Our love of the Secret Stash, places we visited in Red Bank and so much more. Check it out!Check out their Links here:Their Podcast can be found anywhere! Just search: The two 2 key Geeks PodcastInstagram: @2keygeeksFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/2keygeeksInstagram: @signs_VitalCheck us out on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Deezer, Tune In, Stitcher, Spotify, or whatever podcast player of choice you use.We Can be found on YouTube: Just Search Panels to Pixels Podcast! Subscribe! And just Check the Thumbs up if you like it! We would appreciate it!You can find Kirk Manley's Artwork at:@Batmankm on Twitter!@Batmankm on Instagramwww.studiokm.comhttps://www.deviantart.com/batmankmhttps://www.facebook.com/kirk.manley.5Or you can just go to: www.PirateCorpsEntertainment.com and find all his links and check out his work! You can also consign him to do work for you with anything you want personalized! Check it out!You can send Feedback at:Facebook.com/PanelsToPixelsEmail us: Panelstopixels1@gmail.comTwitter: @Panels2PixelsInstagram: @PanelsToPixelsPodcast

Live Recorded Set from VirtualDJ Radio ClubZone

Live Recorded Set from VirtualDJ Radio ClubZone

Live Recorded Set from VirtualDJ Radio ClubZone

In this Dailycast episode, Chris Maitland and Justin McClelland present a very good episode of Wrestling Coast to Coast as they travel to Eaton, Pa. for LVAC's Bash at the Brewery and the Avery Good retirement show, with two Avery Good matches. Plus, podcast favorite Willow Nightengale faces Tracy Williams and the World Famous CB takes on Myung Jae Lee. Also, Justin traveled to his own local indy - Xtreme Valley Wrestling - and is ready to tell you all about his adventures there. For VIP listeners, Coast to Coast heads south to Action Wrestling to check out Alex Shelley vs. Anthony Henry and AC Mack vs. Anthony Greene for the IWTV World Title.

What a good time! I was joined by past guests, including Aaron Larget-Caplan, Andrew Mah, Brian Kozak, Chris Mallett, Fred Hand, Gerard Cousins, Jeff LaQuatra, Jim McCutcheon, Laura Mazon-Franqui, Peter Danner, Sharon Wayne, and Thomas Flippin.

“Transplant” follows the story of Dr. Bashir “Bash” Hamed (Hamza Haq), a talented doctor and Syrian refugee, who fled his war-torn country with his younger sister Amira (Sirena Gulamgaus) for a fresh start in Canada. After a truck crashes into the restaurant where he's been working, Bash earns the chance to practice medicine again by using his field-honed skills to save multiple lives in brilliant fashion, including that of Dr. Jed Bishop (John Hannah), the Chief of Emergency Medicine at York Memorial Hospital in Toronto. But Bash is told he'll need to redo his residency in Emergency Medicine from the bottom, and despite his obvious talents, intuition, and training, starting over is not an easy road and his life experience is not a perfect match for the strict protocols at York Memorial. Through perseverance he makes inroads, developing camaraderie with his new colleagues, including the driven Dr. Magalie “Mags” LeBlanc (Laurence Leboeuf).

Introduction Hosts: MrX Dave Morriss We recorded this on Sunday April 24th 2022. This is effectively a continuation of the last show, since we found we had lots more to talk about! Note on the title: again we spoke about the Scots language on the show, so it seemed like a good idea to include more of it in the notes and so on. Topics discussed Dampers (in relation to coal fires), a topic we discussed last time: MrX found a version of the Damper song on YouTube PC issues: Dave's home-built desktop PC had another disk problem Running a SMART daemon (under SystemD) gives warnings of imminent disk problems HP Proliant MicroServer - an AMD-based machine sold in the 2010's (?) by HP with a substantial discount. (Prices cited in the audio are probably not reliable!) Regarding the failed PSU mentioned last time, there was speculation about whether turning off at the mains every day is a good idea. MrX is inclined to think that it is not. Remote-controlled plugs: Dave used a set of Brennenstuhl plugs for a while until several of them were destroyed! Now has two Sonoff plugs which can be flashed with firmware and controlled with MQTT as part of a Smart Home Programming: MrX has recently been writing a Bash script, and found it difficult to get back into it. Dave had written in DEC Pascal on a VAXCluster for many years, but can't remember any of it any more. Discussion of Delphi, Borland C++ Neither MrX nor Dave has used C very much Difficulty of producing HPR shows: Pandemic effects on motivation Complications of working from home Happily the rate of contributions to HPR has been increasing in the past few months Adding pictures to shows still needs documentation Smart speakers: MrX already had two Google Home devices and got a free Amazon Echo (with Alexa software) from his ISP. The Echo didn't prove to be very useful as a means of listening to BBC radio, and the sign-up was intrusive. The Google Home devices are preferable; they give easier access to BBC Radio as well as services like Spotify. Dave is avoiding all such devices! Old computing equipment: Dave has an old 132-column Anadex matrix printer with a Centronics interface in his attic - found recently when clearing it out. MrX remembered removable Diablo disks. Dave reminisced about writing software in Coral66 on a CTL Modular 1 computer in the 1970s, which also had removable disks. Being back at work again: MrX is now in the office twice a week The Scotland mask mandate has ended but many people are still wearing them People are catching SARS-CoV-2 at work, and particularly from children who are back at school, but vaccination means the effects tend to be milder. Hayfever (seasonal allergies): MrX is taking a 30C remedy (a remedy labeled 30C has been serially diluted 1:100 thirty times, so is extremely dilute) Dave still suffers from hayfever and takes Cetirizine through spring and summer Dave thinks he developed hayfever in the hot summer and drought of 1976 on a field course in Gloucestershire. (BBC News story: Could the ladybird plague of 1976 happen again?) Medical issues: Rheumatoid arthritis - auto-immune origins Trigger finger (also known as stenosing tenosynovitis) Scots vocabulary swither noun: A state of indecision or doubt, a pondering, hesitation, uncertainty. verb: To be in a state of uncertainty of purpose, to be perplexed about what to do or choose, be in two minds, to doubt, hesitate, dither. peely-wally (or peelie-wallie or peelie-wally) adjective: pale, wan and off-colour; insipid and colourless. Links Scots words: Scots Language The online Scots dictionary (English to Scots) Smart Speakers: Wikipedia article on Smart Speakers Old computing equipment: Wikipedia article on Centronics printers Wikipedia article on Diabolo disks Wikipedia article on Computer Technology Limited (CTL) Homeopathic dilutions: Wikipedia article on Homeopathic dilutions Medical matters Wikipedia article on Rheumatoid arthritis Wikipedia article on Trigger finger

The Geeks come to you from A Shared Universe Podcastudio in Red Bank NJ with host Ming Chen to talk about Jay and Silent Bob's Secret Stash 25th Anniversary!

“Transplant” follows the story of Dr. Bashir “Bash” Hamed (Hamza Haq), a talented doctor and Syrian refugee, who fled his war-torn country with his younger sister Amira (Sirena Gulamgaus) for a fresh start in Canada. After a truck crashes into the restaurant where he's been working, Bash earns the chance to practice medicine again by using his field-honed skills to save multiple lives in brilliant fashion, including that of Dr. Jed Bishop (John Hannah), the Chief of Emergency Medicine at York Memorial Hospital in Toronto. But Bash is told he'll need to redo his residency in Emergency Medicine from the bottom, and despite his obvious talents, intuition, and training, starting over is not an easy road and his life experience is not a perfect match for the strict protocols at York Memorial. Through perseverance he makes inroads, developing camaraderie with his new colleagues, including the driven Dr. Magalie “Mags” LeBlanc (Laurence Leboeuf).

Someone borrowed a dress then died and the dress was found... At the funeral.

Over the moon for this weeks episode of Napalm and Friends with an incredible human being that restores my faith in humanity and the internet, the insanely talents guitarist from Sigmund Fraud, Michael Pearce. Tune in and learn a little about the punk scene in Australia, how Michael came to pick up the guitar, and so much more! Like always, guest picks the playlist Michael Pearce Instagram Sigmund Fraud Instagram Find Sigmund Fraud albums on Apple and Spotify   1. Human Error. Clowns   2. Fugazi. Waiting Room   3. Parquet Courts. What Colour is Blood   4. Frenzal Rhomb. Mum changed the Locks   5. Aesop Rock. Labor    6. Fu Manchu. The Action is Go   7. Decrepit Birth. Sea of Memories   8. Ne Obliviscaris. Forget Not   Background: String Kings. The Bash  

About AmyAmy Tobey has worked in tech for more than 20 years at companies of every size, working with everything from kernel code to user interfaces. These days she spends her time building an innovative Site Reliability Engineering program at Equinix, where she is a principal engineer. When she's not working, she can be found with her nose in a book, watching anime with her son, making noise with electronics, or doing yoga poses in the sun.Links Referenced: Equinix Metal: https://metal.equinix.com Personal Twitter: https://twitter.com/MissAmyTobey Personal Blog: https://tobert.github.io/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Vultr. Optimized cloud compute plans have landed at Vultr to deliver lightning-fast processing power, courtesy of third-gen AMD EPYC processors without the IO or hardware limitations of a traditional multi-tenant cloud server. Starting at just 28 bucks a month, users can deploy general-purpose, CPU, memory, or storage optimized cloud instances in more than 20 locations across five continents. Without looking, I know that once again, Antarctica has gotten the short end of the stick. Launch your Vultr optimized compute instance in 60 seconds or less on your choice of included operating systems, or bring your own. It's time to ditch convoluted and unpredictable giant tech company billing practices and say goodbye to noisy neighbors and egregious egress forever. Vultr delivers the power of the cloud with none of the bloat. “Screaming in the Cloud” listeners can try Vultr for free today with a $150 in credit when they visit getvultr.com/screaming. That's G-E-T-V-U-L-T-R dot com slash screaming. My thanks to them for sponsoring this ridiculous podcast.Corey: Finding skilled DevOps engineers is a pain in the neck! And if you need to deploy a secure and compliant application to AWS, forgettaboutit! But that's where DuploCloud can help. Their comprehensive no-code/low-code software platform guarantees a secure and compliant infrastructure in as little as two weeks, while automating the full DevSecOps lifestyle. Get started with DevOps-as-a-Service from DuploCloud so that your cloud configurations are done right the first time. Tell them I sent you and your first two months are free. To learn more visit: snark.cloud/duplo. Thats's snark.cloud/D-U-P-L-O-C-L-O-U-D.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Every once in a while I catch up with someone that it feels like I've known for ages, and I realize somehow I have never been able to line up getting them on this show as a guest. Today is just one of those days. And my guest is Amy Tobey who has been someone I've been talking to for ages, even in the before-times, if you can remember such a thing. Today, she's a Senior Principal Engineer at Equinix. Amy, thank you for finally giving in to my endless wheedling.Amy: Thanks for having me. You mentioned the before-times. Like, I remember it was, like, right before the pandemic we had beers in San Francisco wasn't it? There was Ian there—Corey: Yeah, I—Amy: —and a couple other people. It was a really great time. And then—Corey: I vaguely remember beer. Yeah. And then—Amy: And then the world ended.Corey: Oh, my God. Yes. It's still March of 2020, right?Amy: As far as I know. Like, I haven't checked in a couple years.Corey: So, you do an awful lot. And it's always a difficult question to ask someone, so can you encapsulate your entire existence in a paragraph? It's—Amy: [sigh].Corey: —awful, so I'd like to give a bit more structure to it. Let's start with the introduction: You are a Senior Principal Engineer. We know it's high level because of all the adjectives that get put in there, and none of those adjectives are ‘associate' or ‘beginner' or ‘junior,' or all the other diminutives that companies like to play games with to justify paying people less. And you're at Equinix, which is a company that is a bit unlike most of the, shall we say, traditional cloud providers. What do you do over there and both as a company, as a person?Amy: So, as a company Equinix, what most people know about is that we have a whole bunch of data centers all over the world. I think we have the most of any company. And what we do is we lease out space in that data center, and then we have a number of other products that people don't know as well, which one is Equinix Metal, which is what I specifically work on, where we rent you bare-metal servers. None of that fancy stuff that you get any other clouds on top of it, there's things you can get that are… partner things that you can add-on, like, you know, storage and other things like that, but we just deliver you bare-metal servers with really great networking. So, what I work on is the reliability of that whole system. All of the things that go into provisioning the servers, making them come up, making sure that they get delivered to the server, make sure the API works right, all of that stuff.Corey: So, you're on the Equinix cloud side of the world more so than you are on the building data centers by the sweat of your brow, as they say?Amy: Correct. Yeah, yeah. Software side.Corey: Excellent. I spent some time in data centers in the early part of my career before cloud ate that. That was sort of cotemporaneous with the discovery that I'm the hardware destruction bunny, and I should go to great pains to keep my aura from anything expensive and important, like, you know, the SAN. So—Amy: Right, yeah.Corey: Companies moving out of data centers, and me getting out was a great thing.Amy: But the thing about SANs though, is, like, it might not be you. They're just kind of cursed from the start, right? They just always were kind of fussy and easy to break.Corey: Oh, yeah. I used to think—and I kid you not—that I had a limited upside to my career in tech because I sometimes got sloppy and I was fairly slow at crimping ethernet cables.Amy: [laugh].Corey: That is very similar to growing up in third grade when it became apparent that I was going to have problems in my career because my handwriting was sloppy. Yeah, it turns out the future doesn't look like we predicted it would.Amy: Oh, gosh. Are we going to talk about, like, neurological development now or… [laugh] okay, that's a thing I struggle with, too right, is I started typing as soon as they would let—in fact, before they would let me. I remember in high school, I had teachers who would grade me down for typing a paper out. They want me to handwrite it and I would go, “Cool. Go ahead and take a grade off because if I handwrite it, you're going to take two grades off my handwriting, so I'm cool with this deal.”Corey: Yeah, it was pretty easy early on. I don't know when the actual shift was, but it became more and more apparent that more and more things are moving towards a world where you could type. And I was almost five when I started working on that stuff, and that really wound up changing a lot of aspects of how I started seeing things. One thing I think you're probably fairly well known for is incidents. I want to be clear when I say that you are not the root cause as—“So, why are things broken?” “It's Amy again. What's she gotten into this time?” Great.Amy: [laugh]. But it does happen, but not all the time.Corey: Exa—it's a learning experience.Amy: Right.Corey: You've also been deeply involved with SREcon and a number of—a lot of aspects of what I will term—and please don't yell at me for this—SRE culture—Amy: Yeah.Corey: Which is sometimes a challenging thing to wind up describing or putting a definition around. The one that I've always been somewhat partial to is, “SRE is DevOps, except you worked at Google for a while.” I don't know how necessarily accurate that is, but it does rile people up.Amy: Yeah, it does. Dave Stanke actually did a really great talk at SREcon San Francisco just a couple weeks ago, about the DORA report. And the new DORA report, they split SRE out into its own function and kind of is pushing against that old model, which actually comes from Liz Fong-Jones—I think it's from her, or older—about, like, class SRE implements DevOps, which is kind of this idea that, like, SREs make DevOps happen. Things have evolved, right, since then. Things have evolved since Google released those books, and we're all just figured out what works and what doesn't a little bit.And so, it's not that we're implementing DevOps so much. In fact, it's that ops stuff that kind of holds us back from the really high impact work that SREs, I think, should be doing, that aren't just, like, fixing the problems, the symptoms down at the bottom layer, right? Like what we did as sysadmins 20 years ago. You know, we'd go and a lot of people are SREs that came out of the sysadmin world and still think in that mode, where it's like, “Well, I set up the systems, and when things break, I go and I fix them.” And, “Why did the developers keep writing crappy code? Why do I have to always getting up in the middle of the night because this thing crashed?”And it turns out that the work we need to do to make things more reliable, there's a ceiling to how far away the platform can take us, right? Like, we can have the best platform in the world with redundancy, and, you know, nine-way replicated data storage and all this crazy stuff, and still if we put crappy software on top, it's going to be unreliable. So, how do we make less crappy software? And for most of my career, people would be, like, “Well, you should test it.” And so, we started doing that, and we still have crappy software, so what's going on here? We still have incidents.So, we write more tests, and we still have incidents. We had a QA group, we still have incidents. We send the developers to training, and we still have incidents. So like, what is the thing we need to do to make things more reliable? And it turns out, most of it is culture work.Corey: My perspective on this stems from being a grumpy old sysadmin. And at some point, I started calling myself a systems engineer or DevOps or production engineer, or SRE. It was all from my point of view, the same job, but you know, if you call yourself a sysadmin, you're just asking for a 40% pay cut off the top.Amy: [laugh].Corey: But I still tended to view the world through that lens. I tended to be very good at Linux systems internals, for example, understanding system calls and the rest, but increasingly, as the DevOps wave or SRE wave, or Google-isation of the internet wound up being more and more of a thing, I found myself increasingly in job interviews, where, “Great, now, can you go wind up implementing a sorting algorithm on the whiteboard?” “What on earth? No.” Like, my lingua franca is shitty Bash, and no one tends to write that without a bunch of tab completions and quick checking with manpages—die.net or whatnot—on the fly as you go down that path.And it was awful, and I felt… like my skill set was increasingly eroding. And it wasn't honestly until I started this place where I really got into writing a fair bit of code to do different things because it felt like an orthogonal skill set, but the fullness of time, it seems like it's not. And it's a reskilling. And it made me wonder, does this mean that the areas of technology that I focused on early in my career, was that all a waste? And the answer is not really. Sometimes, sure, in that I don't spend nearly as much time worrying about inodes—for example—as I once did. But every once in a while, I'll run into something and I looked like a wizard from the future, but instead, I'm a wizard from the past.Amy: Yeah, I find that a lot in my work, now. Sometimes things I did 20 years ago, come back, and it's like, oh, yeah, I remember I did all that threading work in 2002 in Perl, and I learned everything the very, very, very hard way. And then, you know, this January, did some threading work to fix some stability issues, and all of it came flooding back, right? Just that the experiences really, more than the code or the learning or the text and stuff; more just the, like, this feels like threads [BLEEP]-ery. Is a diagnostic thing that sometimes we have to say.And then people are like, “Can you prove it?” And I'm like, “Not really,” because it's literally thread [BLEEP]-ery. Like, the definition of it is that there's weird stuff happening that we can't figure out why it's happening. There's something acting in the system that isn't synchronized, that isn't connected to other things, that's happening out of order from what we expect, and if we had a clear signal, we would just fix it, but we don't. We just have, like, weird stuff happening over here and then over there and over there and over there.And, like, that tells me there's just something happening at that layer and then have to go and dig into that right, and like, just basically charge through. My colleagues are like, “Well, maybe you should look at this, and go look at the database,” the things that they're used to looking at and that their experiences inform, whereas then I bring that ancient toiling through the threading mines experiences back and go, “Oh, yeah. So, let's go find where this is happening, where people are doing dangerous things with threads, and see if we can spot something.” But that came from that experience.Corey: And there's so much that just repeats itself. And history rhymes. The challenge is that, do you have 20 years of experience, or do you have one year of experience repeated 20 times? And as the tide rises, doing the same task by hand, it really is just a matter of time before your full-time job winds up being something a piece of software does. An easy example is, “Oh, what's your job?” “I manually place containers onto specific hosts.” “Well, I've got news for you, and you're not going to like it at all.”Amy: Yeah, yeah. I think that we share a little bit. I'm allergic to repeated work. I don't know if allergic is the right word, but you know, if I sit and I do something once, fine. Like, I'll just crank it out, you know, it's this form, or it's a datafile I got to write and I'll—fine I'll type it in and do the manual labor.The second time, the difficulty goes up by ten, right? Like, just mentally, just to do it, be like, I've already done this once. Doing it again is anathema to everything that I am. And then sometimes I'll get through it, but after that, like, writing a program is so much easier because it's like exponential, almost, growth in difficulty. You know, the third time I have to do the same thing that's like just typing the same stuff—like, look over here, read this thing and type it over here—I'm out; I can't do it. You know, I got to find a way to automate. And I don't know, maybe normal people aren't driven to live this way, but it's kept me from getting stuck in those spots, too.Corey: It was weird because I spent a lot of time as a consultant going from place to place and it led to some weird changes. For example, “Oh, thank God, I don't have to think about that whole messaging queue thing.” Sure enough, next engagement, it's message queue time. Fantastic. I found that repeating myself drove me nuts, but you also have to be very sensitive not to wind up, you know, stealing IP from the people that you're working with.Amy: Right.Corey: But what I loved about the sysadmin side of the world is that the vast majority of stuff that I've taken with me, lives in my shell config. And what I mean by that is I'm not—there's nothing in there is proprietary, but when you have a weird problem with trying to figure out the best way to figure out which Ruby process is stealing all the CPU, great, turns out that you can chain seven or eight different shell commands together through a bunch of pipes. I don't want to remember that forever. So, that's the sort of thing I would wind up committing as I learned it. I don't remember what company I picked that up at, but it was one of those things that was super helpful.I have a sarcastic—it's a one-liner, except no sane editor setting is going to show it in any less than three—of a whole bunch of Perl, piped into du, piped into the rest, that tells you one of the largest consumers of files in a given part of the system. And it rates them with stars and it winds up doing some neat stuff. I would never sit down and reinvent something like that today, but the fact that it's there means that I can do all kinds of neat tricks when I need to. It's making sure that as you move through your career, on some level, you're picking up skills that are repeatable and applicable beyond one company.Amy: Skills and tooling—Corey: Yeah.Amy: —right? Like, you just described the tool. Another SREcon talk was John Allspaw and Dr. Richard Cook talking about above the line; below the line. And they started with these metaphors about tools, right, showing all the different kinds of hammers.And if you're a blacksmith, a lot of times you craft specialized hammers for very specific jobs. And that's one of the properties of a tool that they were trying to get people to think about, right, is that tools get crafted to the job. And what you just described as a bespoke tool that you had created on the fly, that kind of floated under the radar of intellectual property. [laugh].So, let's not tell the security or IP people right? Like, because there's probably billions and billions of dollars of technically, like, made-up IP value—I'm doing air quotes with my fingers—you know, that's just basically people's shell profiles. And my God, the Emacs automation that people have done. If you've ever really seen somebody who's amazing at Emacs and is 10, 20, 30, maybe 40 years of experience encoded in their emacs settings, it's a wonder to behold. Like, I look at it and I go, “Man, I wish I could do that.”It's like listening to a really great guitar player and be like, “Wow, I wish I could play like them.” You see them just flying through stuff. But all that IP in there is both that person's collection of wisdom and experience and working with that code, but also encodes that stuff like you described, right? It's just all these little systems tricks and little fiddly commands and things we don't want to remember and so we encode them into our toolset.Corey: Oh, yeah. Anything I wound up taking, I always would share it with people internally, too. I'd mention, “Yeah, I'm keeping this in my shell files.” Because I disclosed it, which solves a lot of the problem. And also, none of it was even close to proprietary or anything like that. I'm sorry, but the way that you wind up figuring out how much of a disk is being eaten up and where in a more pleasing way, is not a competitive advantage. It just isn't.Amy: It isn't to you or me, but, you know, back in the beginning of our careers, people thought it was worth money and should be proprietary. You know, like, oh, that disk-checking script as a competitive advantage for our company because there are only a few of us doing this work. Like, it was actually being able to, like, manage your—[laugh] actually manage your servers was a competitive advantage. Now, it's kind of commodity.Corey: Let's also be clear that the world has moved on. I wound up buying a DaisyDisk a while back for Mac, which I love. It is a fantastic, pretty effective, “Where's all the stuff on your disk going?” And it does a scan and you can drive and collect things and delete them when trying to clean things out. I was using it the other day, so it's top of mind at the moment.But it's way more polished than that crappy Perl three-liner. And I see both sides, truly I do. The trick also, for those wondering [unintelligible 00:15:45], like, “Where is the line?” It's super easy. Disclose it, what you're doing, in those scenarios in the event someone is no because they believe that finding the right man page section for something is somehow proprietary.Great. When you go home that evening in a completely separate environment, build it yourself from scratch to solve the problem, reimplement it and save that. And you're done. There are lots of ways to do this. Don't steal from your employer, but your employer employs you; they don't own you and the way that you think about these problems.Every person I've met who has had a career that's longer than 20 minutes has a giant doc somewhere on some system of all of the scripts that they wound up putting together, all of the one-liners, the notes on, “Next time you see this, this is the thing to check.”Amy: Yeah, the cheat sheet or the notebook with all the little commands, or again the Emacs config, sometimes for some people, or shell profiles. Yeah.Corey: Here's the awk one-liner that I put that automatically spits out from an Apache log file what—the httpd log file that just tells me what are the most frequent talkers, and what are the—Amy: You should probably let go of that one. You know, like, I think that one's lifetime is kind of past, Corey. Maybe you—Corey: I just have to get it working with Nginx, and we're good to go.Amy: Oh, yeah, there you go. [laugh].Corey: Or S3 access logs. Perish the thought. But yeah, like, what are the five most high-volume talkers, and what are those relative to each other? Huh, that one thing seems super crappy and it's coming from Russia. But that's—hmm, one starts to wonder; maybe it's time to dig back in.So, one of the things that I have found is that a lot of the people talking about SRE seem to have descended from an ivory tower somewhere. And they're talking about how some of the best-in-class companies out there, renowned for their technical cultures—at least externally—are doing these things. But there's a lot more folks who are not there. And honestly, I consider myself one of those people who is not there. I was a competent engineer, but never a terrific one.And looking at the way this was described, I often came away thinking, “Okay, it was the purpose of this conference talk just to reinforce how smart people are, and how I'm not,” and/or, “There are the 18 cultural changes you need to make to your company, and then you can do something kind of like we were just talking about on stage.” It feels like there's a combination of problems here. One is making this stuff more accessible to folks who are not themselves in those environments, and two, how to drive cultural change as an individual contributor if that's even possible. And I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you have thoughts on both aspects of that, and probably some more hit me, please.Amy: So, the ivory tower, right. Let's just be straight up, like, the ivory tower is Google. I mean, that's where it started. And we get it from the other large companies that, you know, want to do conference talks about what this stuff means and what it does. What I've kind of come around to in the last couple of years is that those talks don't really reach the vast majority of engineers, they don't really apply to a large swath of the enterprise especially, which is, like, where a lot of the—the bulk of our industry sits, right? We spend a lot of time talking about the darlings out here on the West Coast in high tech culture and startups and so on.But, like, we were talking about before we started the show, right, like, the interior of even just America, is filled with all these, like, insurance and banks and all of these companies that are cranking out tons of code and servers and stuff, and they're trying to figure out the same problems. But they're structured in companies where their tech arm is still, in most cases, considered a cost center, often is bundled under finance, for—that's a whole show of itself about that historical blunder. And so, the tech culture is tend to be very, very different from what we experience in—what do we call it anymore? Like, I don't even want to say West Coast anymore because we've gone remote, but, like, high tech culture we'll say. And so, like, thinking about how to make SRE and all this stuff more accessible comes down to, like, thinking about who those engineers are that are sitting at the computers, writing all the code that runs our banks, all the code that makes sure that—I'm trying to think of examples that are more enterprise-y right?Or shoot buying clothes online. You go to Macy's for example. They have a whole bunch of servers that run their online store and stuff. They have internal IT-ish people who keep all this stuff running and write that code and probably integrating open-source stuff much like we all do. But when you go to try to put in a reliability program that's based on the current SRE models, like SLOs; you put in SLOs and you start doing, like, this incident management program that's, like, you know, you have a form you fill out after every incident, and then you [unintelligible 00:20:25] retros.And it turns out that those things are very high-level skills, skills and capabilities in an organization. And so, when you have this kind of IT mindset or the enterprise mindset, bringing the culture together to make those things work often doesn't happen. Because, you know, they'll go with the prescriptive model and say, like, okay, we're going to implement SLOs, we're going to start measuring SLIs on all of the services, and we're going to hold you accountable for meeting those targets. If you just do that, right, you're just doing more gatekeeping and policing of your tech environment. My bet is, reliability almost never improves in those cases.And that's been my experience, too, and why I get charged up about this is, if you just go slam in these practices, people end up miserable, the practices then become tarnished because people experienced the worst version of them. And then—Corey: And with the remote explosion as well, it turns out that changing jobs basically means their company sends you a different Mac, and the next Monday, you wind up signing into a different Slack team.Amy: Yeah, so the culture really matters, right? You can't cover it over with foosball tables and great lunch. You actually have to deliver tools that developers want to use and you have to deliver a software engineering culture that brings out the best in developers instead of demanding the best from developers. I think that's a fundamental business shift that's kind of happening. If I'm putting on my wizard hat and looking into the future and dreaming about what might change in the world, right, is that there's kind of a change in how we do leadership and how we do business that's shifting more towards that model where we look at what people are capable of and we trust in our people, and we get more out of them, the knowledge work model.If we want more knowledge work, we need people to be happy and to feel engaged in their community. And suddenly we start to see these kind of generational, bigger-pie kind of things start to happen. But how do we get there? It's not SLOs. It maybe it's a little bit starting with incidents. That's where I've had the most success, and you asked me about that. So, getting practical, incident management is probably—Corey: Right. Well, as I see it, the problem with SLOs across the board is it feels like it's a very insular community so far, and communicating it to engineers seems to be the focus of where the community has been, but from my understanding of it, you absolutely need buy-in at significantly high executive levels, to at the very least by you air cover while you're doing these things and making these changes, but also to help drive that cultural shift. None of this is something I have the slightest clue how to do, let's be very clear. If I knew how to change a company's culture, I'd have a different job.Amy: Yeah. [laugh]. The biggest omission in the Google SRE books was [Ers 00:22:58]. There was a guy at Google named Ers who owns availability for Google, and when anything is, like, in dispute and bubbles up the management team, it goes to Ers, and he says, “Thou shalt…” right? Makes the call. And that's why it works, right?Like, it's not just that one person, but that system of management where the whole leadership team—there's a large, very well-funded team with a lot of power in the organization that can drive availability, and they can say, this is how you're going to do metrics for your service, and this is the system that you're in. And it's kind of, yeah, sure it works for them because they have all the organizational support in place. What I was saying to my team just the other day—because we're in the middle of our SLO rollout—is that really, I think an SLO program isn't [clear throat] about the engineers at all until late in the game. At the beginning of the game, it's really about getting the leadership team on board to say, “Hey, we want to put in SLIs and SLOs to start to understand the functioning of our software system.” But if they don't have that curiosity in the first place, that desire to understand how well their teams are doing, how healthy their teams are, don't do it. It's not going to work. It's just going to make everyone miserable.Corey: It feels like it's one of those difficult to sell problems as well, in that it requires some tooling changes, absolutely. It requires cultural change and buy-in and whatnot, but in order for that to happen, there has to be a painful problem that a company recognizes and is willing to pay to make go away. The problem with stuff like this is that once you pay, there's a lot of extra work that goes on top of it as well, that does not have a perception—rightly or wrongly—of contributing to feature velocity, of hitting the next milestone. It's, “Really? So, we're going to be spending how much money to make engineers happier? They should get paid an awful lot and they're still complaining and never seem happy. Why do I care if they're happy other than the pure mercenary perspective of otherwise they'll quit?” I'm not saying that it's not worth pursuing; it's not a worthy goal. I am saying that it becomes a very difficult thing to wind up selling as a product.Amy: Well, as a product for sure, right? Because—[sigh] gosh, I have friends in the space who work on these tools. And I want to be careful.Corey: Of course. Nothing but love for all of those people, let's be very clear.Amy: But a lot of them, you know, they're pulling metrics from existing monitoring systems, they are doing some interesting math on them, but what you get at the end is a nice service catalog and dashboard, which are things we've been trying to land as products in this industry for as long as I can remember, and—Corey: “We've got it this time, though. This time we'll crack the nut.” Yeah. Get off the island, Gilligan.Amy: And then the other, like, risky thing, right, is the other part that makes me uncomfortable about SLOs, and why I will often tell folks that I talk to out in the industry that are asking me about this, like, one-on-one, “Should I do it here?” And it's like, you can bring the tool in, and if you have a management team that's just looking to have metrics to drive productivity, instead of you know, trying to drive better knowledge work, what you get is just a fancier version of more Taylorism, right, which is basically scientific management, this idea that we can, like, drive workers to maximum efficiency by measuring random things about them and driving those numbers. It turns out, that doesn't really work very well, even in industrial scale, it just happened to work because, you know, we have a bloody enough society that we pushed people into it. But the reality is, if you implement SLOs badly, you get more really bad Taylorism that's bad for you developers. And my suspicion is that you will get worse availability out of it than you would if you just didn't do it at all.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Revelo. Revelo is the Spanish word of the day, and its spelled R-E-V-E-L-O. It means “I reveal.” Now, have you tried to hire an engineer lately? I assure you it is significantly harder than it sounds. One of the things that Revelo has recognized is something I've been talking about for a while, specifically that while talent is evenly distributed, opportunity is absolutely not. They're exposing a new talent pool to, basically, those of us without a presence in Latin America via their platform. It's the largest tech talent marketplace in Latin America with over a million engineers in their network, which includes—but isn't limited to—talent in Mexico, Costa Rica, Brazil, and Argentina. Now, not only do they wind up spreading all of their talent on English ability, as well as you know, their engineering skills, but they go significantly beyond that. Some of the folks on their platform are hands down the most talented engineers that I've ever spoken to. Let's also not forget that Latin America has high time zone overlap with what we have here in the United States, so you can hire full-time remote engineers who share most of the workday as your team. It's an end-to-end talent service, so you can find and hire engineers in Central and South America without having to worry about, frankly, the colossal pain of cross-border payroll and benefits and compliance because Revelo handles all of it. If you're hiring engineers, check out revelo.io/screaming to get 20% off your first three months. That's R-E-V-E-L-O dot I-O slash screaming.Corey: That is part of the problem is, in some cases, to drive some of these improvements, you have to go backwards to move forwards. And it's one of those, “Great, so we spent all this effort and money in the rest of now things are worse?” No, not necessarily, but suddenly are aware of things that were slipping through the cracks previously.Amy: Yeah. Yeah.Corey: Like, the most realistic thing about first The Phoenix Project and then The Unicorn Project, both by Gene Kim, has been the fact that companies have these problems and actively cared enough to change it. In my experience, that feels a little on the rare side.Amy: Yeah, and I think that's actually the key, right? It's for the culture change, and for, like, if you really looking to be, like, do I want to work at this company? Am I investing my myself in here? Is look at the leadership team and be, like, do these people actually give a crap? Are they looking just to punt another number down the road?That's the real question, right? Like, the technology and stuff, at the point where I'm at in my career, I just don't care that much anymore. [laugh]. Just… fine, use Kubernetes, use Postgres, [unintelligible 00:27:30], I don't care. I just don't. Like, Oracle, I might have to ask, you know, go to finance and be like, “Hey, can we spend 20 million for a database?” But like, nobody really asks for that anymore, so. [laugh].Corey: As one does. I will say that I mostly agree with you, but a technology that I found myself getting excited about, given the time of the recording on this is… fun, I spent a bit of time yesterday—from when we're recording this—teaching myself just enough Go to wind up being together a binary that I needed to do something actively ridiculous for my camera here. And I found myself coming away deeply impressed by a lot of things about it, how prescriptive it was for one, how self-contained for another. And after spending far too many years of my life writing shitty Perl, and shitty Bash, and worse Python, et cetera, et cetera, the prescriptiveness was great. The fact that it wound up giving me something I could just run, I could cross-compile for anything I need to run it on, and it just worked. It's been a while since I found a technology that got me this interested in exploring further.Amy: Go is great for that. You mentioned one of my two favorite features of Go. One is usually when a program compiles—at least the way I code in Go—it usually works. I've been working with Go since about 0.9, like, just a little bit before it was released as 1.0, and that's what I've noticed over the years of working with it is that most of the time, if you have a pretty good data structure design and you get the code to compile, usually it's going to work, unless you're doing weird stuff.The other thing I really love about Go and that maybe you'll discover over time is the malleability of it. And the reason why I think about that more than probably most folks is that I work on other people's code most of the time. And maybe this is something that you probably run into with your business, too, right, where you're working on other people's infrastructure. And the way that we encode business rules and things in the languages, in our programming language or our config syntax and stuff has a huge impact on folks like us and how quickly we can come into a situation, assess, figure out what's going on, figure out where things are laid out, and start making changes with confidence.Corey: Forget other people for a minute they're looking at what I built out three or four years ago here, myself, like, I look at past me, it's like, “What was that rat bastard thinking? This is awful.” And it's—forget other people's code; hell is your own code, on some level, too, once it's slipped out of the mental stack and you have to re-explore it and, “Oh, well thank God I defensively wound up not including any comments whatsoever explaining what the living hell this thing was.” It's terrible. But you're right, the other people's shell scripts are finicky and odd.I started poking around for help when I got stuck on something, by looking at GitHub, and a few bit of searching here and there. Even these large, complex, well-used projects started making sense to me in a way that I very rarely find. It's, “What the hell is that thing?” is my most common refrain when I'm looking at other people's code, and Go for whatever reason avoids that, I think because it is so prescriptive about formatting, about how things should be done, about the vision that it has. Maybe I'm romanticizing it and I'll hate it and a week from now, and I want to go back and remove this recording, but.Amy: The size of the language helps a lot.Corey: Yeah.Amy: But probably my favorite. It's more of a convention, which actually funny the way I'm going to talk about this because the two languages I work on the most right now are Ruby and Go. And I don't feel like two languages could really be more different.Syntax-wise, they share some things, but really, like, the mental models are so very, very different. Ruby is all the way in on object-oriented programming, and, like, the actual real kind of object-oriented with messaging and stuff, and, like, the whole language kind of springs from that. And it kind of requires you to understand all of these concepts very deeply to be effective in large programs. So, what I find is, when I approach Ruby codebase, I have to load all this crap into my head and remember, “Okay, so yeah, there's this convention, when you do this kind of thing in Ruby”—or especially Ruby on Rails is even worse because they go deep into convention over configuration. But what that's code for is, this code is accessible to people who have a lot of free cognitive capacity to load all this convention into their heads and keep it in their heads so that the code looks pretty, right?And so, that's the trade-off as you said, okay, my developers have to be these people with all these spare brain cycles to understand, like, why I would put the code here in this place versus this place? And all these, like, things that are in the code, like, very compact, dense concepts. And then you go to something like Go, which is, like, “Nah, we're not going to do Lambdas. Nah”—[laugh]—“We're not doing all this fancy stuff.” So, everything is there on the page.This drives some people crazy, right, is that there's all this boilerplate, boilerplate, boilerplate. But the reality is, I can read most Go files from top to the bottom and understand what the hell it's doing, whereas I can go sometimes look at, like, a Ruby thing, or sometimes Python and e—Perl is just [unintelligible 00:32:19] all the time, right, it's there's so much indirection. And it just be, like, “What the [BLEEP] is going on? This is so dense. I'm going to have to sit down and write it out in longhand so I can understand what the developer was even doing here.” And—Corey: Well, that's why I got the Mac Studio; for when I'm not doing A/V stuff with it, that means that I'll have one core that I can use for, you know, front-end processing and the rest, and the other 19 cores can be put to work failing to build Nokogiri in Ruby yet again.Amy: [laugh].Corey: I remember the travails of working with Ruby, and the problem—I have similar problems with Python, specifically in that—I don't know if I'm special like this—it feels like it's a SRE DevOps style of working, but I am grabbing random crap off a GitHub constantly and running it, like, small scripts other people have built. And let's be clear, I run them on my test AWS account that has nothing important because I'm not a fool that I read most of it before I run it, but I also—it wants a different version of Python every single time. It wants a whole bunch of other things, too. And okay, so I use ASDF as my version manager for these things, which for whatever reason, does not work for the way that I think about this ergonomically. Okay, great.And I wind up with detritus scattered throughout my system. It's, “Hey, can you make this reproducible on my machine?” “Almost certainly not, but thank you for asking.” It's like ‘Step 17: Master the Wolf' level of instructions.Amy: And I think Docker generally… papers over the worst of it, right, is when we built all this stuff in the aughts, you know, [CPAN 00:33:45]—Corey: Dev containers and VS Code are very nice.Amy: Yeah, yeah. You know, like, we had CPAN back in the day, I was doing chroots, I think in, like, '04 or '05, you know, to solve this problem, right, which is basically I just—screw it; I will compile an entire distro into a directory with a Perl and all of its dependencies so that I can isolate it from the other things I want to run on this machine and not screw up and not have these interactions. And I think that's kind of what you're talking about is, like, the old model, when we deployed servers, there was one of us sitting there and then we'd log into the server and be like, I'm going to install the Perl. You know, I'll compile it into, like, [/app/perl 558 00:34:21] whatever, and then I'll CPAN all this stuff in, and I'll give it over to the developer, tell them to set their shebang to that and everything just works. And now we're in a mode where it's like, okay, you got to set up a thousand of those. “Okay, well, I'll make a tarball.” [laugh]. But it's still like we had to just—Corey: DevOps, but [unintelligible 00:34:37] dev closer to ops. You're interrelating all the time. Yeah, then Docker comes along, and add dev is, like, “Well, here's the container. Good luck, asshole.” And it feels like it's been cast into your yard to worry about.Amy: Yeah, well, I mean, that's just kind of business, or just—Corey: Yeah. Yeah.Amy: I'm not sure if it's business or capitalism or something like that, but just the idea that, you know, if I can hand off the shitty work to some other poor schlub, why wouldn't I? I mean, that's most folks, right? Like, just be like, “Well”—Corey: Which is fair.Amy: —“I got it working. Like, my part is done, I did what I was supposed to do.” And now there's a lot of folks out there, that's how they work, right? “I hit done. I'm done. I shipped it. Sure. It's an old [unintelligible 00:35:16] Ubuntu. Sure, there's a bunch of shell scripts that rip through things. Sure”—you know, like, I've worked on repos where there's hundreds of things that need to be addressed.Corey: And passing to someone else is fine. I'm thrilled to do it. Where I run into problems with it is where people assume that well, my part was the hard part and anything you schlubs do is easy. I don't—Amy: Well, that's the underclass. Yeah. That's—Corey: Forget engineering for a second; I throw things to the people over in the finance group here at The Duckbill Group because those people are wizards at solving for this thing. And it's—Amy: Well, that's how we want to do things.Corey: Yeah, specialization works.Amy: But we have this—it's probably more cultural. I don't want to pick, like, capitalism to beat on because this is really, like, human cultural thing, and it's not even really particularly Western. Is the idea that, like, “If I have an underclass, why would I give a shit what their experience is?” And this is why I say, like, ops teams, like, get out of here because most ops teams, the extant ops teams are still called ops, and a lot of them have been renamed SRE—but they still do the same job—are an underclass. And I don't mean that those people are below us. People are treated as an underclass, and they shouldn't be. Absolutely not.Corey: Yes.Amy: Because the idea is that, like, well, I'm a fancy person who writes code at my ivory tower, and then it all flows down, and those people, just faceless people, do the deployment stuff that's beneath me. That attitude is the most toxic thing, I think, in tech orgs to address. Like, if you're trying to be like, “Well, our liability is bad, we have security problems, people won't fix their code.” And go look around and you will find people that are treated as an underclass that are given codes thrown over the wall at them and then they just have to toil through and make it work. I've worked on that a number of times in my career.And I think just like saying, underclass, right, or caste system, is what I found is the most effective way to get people actually thinking about what the hell is going on here. Because most people are just, like, “Well, that's just the way things are. It's just how we've always done it. The developers write to code, then give it to the sysadmins. The sysadmins deploy the code. Isn't that how it always works?”Corey: You'd really like to hope, wouldn't you?Amy: [laugh]. Not me. [laugh].Corey: Again, the way I see it is, in theory—in theory—sysadmins, ops, or that should not exist. People should theoretically be able to write code as developers that just works, the end. And write it correct the first time and never have to change it again. Yeah. There's a reason that I always like to call staging environments in places I work ‘theory' because it works in theory, but not in production, and that is fundamentally the—like, that entire job role is the difference between theory and practice.Amy: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's the problem with it. We're already so disconnected from the physical world, right? Like, you and I right now are talking over multiple strands of glass and digital transcodings and things right now, right? Like, we are detached from the physical reality.You mentioned earlier working in data centers, right? The thing I miss about it is, like, the physicality of it. Like, actually, like, I held a server in my arms and put it in the rack and slid it into the rails. I plugged into power myself; I pushed the power button myself. There's a server there. I physically touched it.Developers who don't work in production, we talked about empathy and stuff, but really, I think the big problem is when they work out in their idea space and just writing code, they write the unit tests, if we're very lucky, they'll write a functional test, and then they hand that wad off to some poor ops group. They're detached from the reality of operations. It's not even about accountability; it's about experience. The ability to see all of the weird crap we deal with, right? You know, like, “Well, we pushed the code to that server, but there were three bit flips, so we had to do it again. And then the other server, the disk failed. And on the other server…” You know? [laugh].It's just, there's all this weird crap that happens, these systems are so complex that they're always doing something weird. And if you're a developer that just spends all day in your IDE, you don't get to see that. And I can't really be mad at those folks, as individuals, for not understanding our world. I figure out how to help them, and the best thing we've come up with so far is, like, well, we start giving this—some responsibility in a production environment so that they can learn that. People do that, again, is another one that can be done wrong, where it turns into kind of a forced empathy.I actually really hate that mode, where it's like, “We're forcing all the developers online whether they like it or not. On-call whether they like it or not because they have to learn this.” And it's like, you know, maybe slow your roll a little buddy because the stuff is actually hard to learn. Again, minimizing how hard ops work is. “Oh, we'll just put the developers on it. They'll figure it out, right? They're software engineers. They're probably smarter than you sysadmins.” Is the unstated thing when we do that, right? When we throw them in the pit and be like, “Yeah, they'll get it.” [laugh].Corey: And that was my problem [unintelligible 00:39:49] the interview stuff. It was in the write code on a whiteboard. It's, “Look, I understood how the system fundamentally worked under the hood.” Being able to power my way through to get to an outcome even in language I don't know, was sort of part and parcel of the job. But this idea of doing it in artificially constrained environment, in a language I'm not super familiar with, off the top of my head, it took me years to get to a point of being able to do it with a Bash script because who ever starts with an empty editor and starts getting to work in a lot of these scenarios? Especially in an ops role where we're not building something from scratch.Amy: That's the interesting thing, right? In the majority of tech work today—maybe 20 years ago, we did it more because we were literally building the internet we have today. But today, most of the engineers out there working—most of us working stiffs—are working on stuff that already exists. We're making small incremental changes, which is great that's what we're doing. And we're dealing with old code.Corey: We're gluing APIs together, and that's fine. Ugh. I really want to thank you for taking so much time to talk to me about how you see all these things. If people want to learn more about what you're up to, where's the best place to find you?Amy: I'm on Twitter every once in a while as @MissAmyTobey, M-I-S-S-A-M-Y-T-O-B-E-Y. I have a blog I don't write on enough. And there's a couple things on the Equinix Metal blog that I've written, so if you're looking for that. Otherwise, mainly Twitter.Corey: And those links will of course be in the [show notes 00:41:08]. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.Amy: I had fun. Thank you.Corey: As did I. Amy Tobey, Senior Principal Engineer at Equinix. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, or on the YouTubes, smash the like and subscribe buttons, as the kids say. Whereas if you've hated this episode, same thing, five-star review all the platforms, smash the buttons, but also include an angry comment telling me that you're about to wind up subpoenaing a copy of my shell script because you're convinced that your intellectual property and secrets are buried within.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

It's the summer of 2009; audiences are roaring at Zach Galifianakis in The Hangover, gamers finally get a proper Batman game they can sink their teeth into with Arkham Asylum and in the WWE, CM Punk and Jeff Hardy are blurring the lines between wrestling and real life. This is episode 257 Just Say No - CM Punk vs Jeff Hardy Part One. In this episode we quickly run through the career parallels between the two and the build up to WWE's The Bash 2009 PPV.

It was a rough first year for the NHL's 32nd team. Now that the dust is settled, Victor and Jesse bring in Adam Kierszenblat of The Hockey Writers to figure out what is right and wrong in the US Pacific Northwest. It involves talking Jared McCann, Yanni Gourde, Jordan Eberle, Brandon Tanev, Jaden Schwartz, Alex Wennberg, Ryan Donato, Morgan Geekie, Daniel Sprong, Kole Lind, Karson Kuhlman, Vince Dunn, Adam Larsson, Jamie Oleksiak, Will Borgen, Dennis Cholowski, Haydn Fleury, Cale Fleury, Philipp Grubauer, Chris Driedger, Joey Daccord, and Samyon Vyazovoy. For the goalies, we also get the thoughts of Dobber Prospects goalie expert Dan Tiffany for "Tiff's Takes." In the Dynasty Dig, Victor gives his takes and shares scouting reports from FHL scouts Jeremy V and Jarno on Matthew Beniers, Ryker Evans, and Ryan Winterton. We also get the results of polls from friend of the show Mason Black (@NHLRankKing) comparing these prospects to other similarly rostered prospects. Follow Victor on twitter @victornuno12 and Jesse @fanhockeylife. Our show is presented by Fantrax.com and proud to be a part of the Dobber Podcast Network. Email fantasyhockeylife@gmail.com and ask to join our free discord. Join our Patreon at Patreon.com/fantasyhockeylife for rankings, bonus podcasts, in-depth prospect reports with video, show notes and more. Listen and subscribe wherever podcasts are posted - and give us 5 stars! We want to be your best place to talk about the game of dynasty fantasy hockey. Explanation of "Tiers:" FORWARDS 1 - ppg+ scorer or 60-80 point scorer with ELITE BASH 2 - 70-80 point scorer with below average BASH or 60-70 point scorer with above average/elite BASH 3 - 60-70 point scorer with below average BASH or 50-60 point scorer with above average/elite BASH DEFENSE 1 - 50+ scorer or 40+ point scorer with ELITE BASH 2 - 40+ point scorer with below average BASH or 30+ point scorer with above average/elite BASH 3 - 30+ point scorer with below average BASH or sub 30 point scorer with above average/elite BASH

BOYS NIGHT!! And the boys are feeling allllright. For episode 66 we're throwing at you a not-quite-a-Interlude, not-quite-a-Regular-show....episode, because we felt it would be a disservice to not take the time to tell the tale of Adam's Magical Bachelor Bash. This week, the boys and some other boys discuss the events and shenanigans of a magical testosterone-fueled weekend at Disney World, and we throw some new games your way as well! If you like this episode, well I'm sorry to tell you that it's a bit different than our regular progamming...but still check out all of season 3 and earlier and let us know what you think! Don't forget to rate and review, let us know how much we suck! Please...it's a kink of Adam's. As always, follow us on instagram @pitchthispod and Twitter @pitch_this_pod for more content and goofs.

A Denny Park building owned by the Seattle Parks and Recreation Department was vandalized last weekend, prompting angry condemnations from the city and others as a result.According to authorities, Seattle police responded around 10:30 p.m. last Saturday to the scene, which is located off of Dexter Avenue N., for reports of graffiti along with damage to the building's windows and city vehicles at the site.Three men wearing black clothing may have been involved in the incident, according to the police report.LIKE & SUBSCRIBE for new videos everyday. https://bit.ly/3KBUDSK

As we continue through the happenings in the land where the big boys play in 1996, the Outsiders have made their presence known and are looking to secure a match with the best that Billionaire Ted has to offer. Elsewhere we have a couple of football players taking on Flair and the Enforcer, the biggest man in the world defending his world title against the Total Package, and the debut of Rey Mysterio Jr. This is the last stop on the way to the Bash at the Beach and business is picking up. Jaded Wrasslin' Merch: prowrestlingtees.com/jadedwrasslin Follow the big three on Twitter: @Jadedwrasslin @yearofpod @totspod Jaded Wrasslin' Social Media: https://linktr.ee/Jadedwrasslin --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/jadedwrasslin/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/jadedwrasslin/support

PHWA-credentialed New Jersey Devils reporter Kristy Flannery joins Victor and Jesse to talk all things Devils. We go over pro players Jack Hughes, Jesper Bratt, Nico Hischier, Yegor Sharangovich, Dawson Mercer, Nathan Bastian, Andreas Johnsson, Pavel Zacha, Miles Wood, Jesper Boqvist, Tomas Tatar, Dougie Hamilton, Damon Severson, Jonas Siegenthaler, Ty Smith, Ryan Graves, MacKenzie Blackwood, Jonathan Bernier, and Nico Daws. Dan Tiffany joins with "Tiff's Takes" on the New Jersey goalies. In the Dynasty Dig, we talk Luke Hughes, Reilly Walsh, and Alexander Holtz. Shouts to FHL scouts Danick and Matt G. Follow Victor on twitter @victornuno12 and Jesse @fanhockeylife. Our show is presented by Fantrax.com and proud to be a part of the Dobber Podcast Network. Email fantasyhockeylife@gmail.com and ask to join our free discord. Join our Patreon at Patreon.com/fantasyhockeylife for rankings, bonus podcasts, in-depth prospect reports with video, show notes and more. Listen and subscribe wherever podcasts are posted - and give us 5 stars! We want to be your best place to talk about the game of dynasty fantasy hockey. Explanation of "Tiers:" FORWARDS 1 - ppg+ scorer or 60-80 point scorer with ELITE BASH 2 - 70-80 point scorer with below average BASH or 60-70 point scorer with above average/elite BASH 3 - 60-70 point scorer with below average BASH or 50-60 point scorer with above average/elite BASH DEFENSE 1 - 50+ scorer or 40+ point scorer with ELITE BASH 2 - 40+ point scorer with below average BASH or 30+ point scorer with above average/elite BASH 3 - 30+ point scorer with below average BASH or sub 30 point scorer with above average/elite BASH

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“Republicans are calling it ‘Orwellian' and comparing it to the Ministry of Truth in the novel 1984,” Bash said. “Can you clarify what exactly is this? What exactly will this disinformation governance board do? Will it monitor American citizens?” Mayorkas conceded “we probably could have done a better job of communicating” the board's purpose, even as he defended it by citing foreign disinformation as a threat to homeland security. Bash continued to press Mayorkas on how the board will work, asking again “Will American citizens be monitored?”

Episode 252 of Boss Hog of Liberty is out!  Jeremiah Morrell, Dakota Davis, Zach Burcham, and returning guest Bash Crider are in the building. We recap this week's primary results, following our candidate series as sponsored by Weiland's Flowers, Big Bounce, and The Slick Pickle. Bash shares with us the need for estate planning for millennials (and everyone else), and finally we talk about crypto-currency, we try to understand what an NFT is, and Jeremiah sends Dakota down a conspiracy rabbit hole. A great, fun episode! Our program is community supported on Patreon. Do your part by chipping into the cause by donating monthly at any level at www.patreon.com/bosshogofliberty and receive even more BONUS coverage and content. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

About MichaelMichael is the creator of IT automation platforms Cobbler and Ansible, the latter allegedly used by ~60% of the Fortune 500, and at one time one of the top 10 contributed to projects on GitHub.Links Referenced: Speaking Tech: https://michaeldehaan.substack.com/ michaeldehaan.net: https://michaeldehaan.net Twitter: https://twitter.com/laserllama TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Revelo. Revelo is the Spanish word of the day, and its spelled R-E-V-E-L-O. It means “I reveal.” Now, have you tried to hire an engineer lately? I assure you it is significantly harder than it sounds. One of the things that Revelo has recognized is something I've been talking about for a while, specifically that while talent is evenly distributed, opportunity is absolutely not. They're exposing a new talent pool to, basically, those of us without a presence in Latin America via their platform. It's the largest tech talent marketplace in Latin America with over a million engineers in their network, which includes—but isn't limited to—talent in Mexico, Costa Rica, Brazil, and Argentina. Now, not only do they wind up spreading all of their talent on English ability, as well as you know, their engineering skills, but they go significantly beyond that. Some of the folks on their platform are hands down the most talented engineers that I've ever spoken to. Let's also not forget that Latin America has high time zone overlap with what we have here in the United States, so you can hire full-time remote engineers who share most of the workday as your team. It's an end-to-end talent service, so you can find and hire engineers in Central and South America without having to worry about, frankly, the colossal pain of cross-border payroll and benefits and compliance because Revelo handles all of it. If you're hiring engineers, check out revelo.io/screaming to get 20% off your first three months. That's R-E-V-E-L-O dot I-O slash screaming.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by LaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visit launchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Corey: Once upon a time, Docker came out and change an entire industry forever. But believe it or not, for many of you, this predates your involvement in the space. There was a time where we had to manage computer systems ourselves with our hands—kind of—like in the prehistoric days, chiseling bits onto disk and whatnot. It was an area crying out for automation, as we started using more and more computers to run various websites. “Oh, that's a big website. It needs three servers now.” Et cetera.The times have changed rather significantly. One of the formative voices in that era was Michael DeHaan, who's joining me today, originally one of the—or if not the creator of Cobbler, and later—for which you became better known—Ansible. First, thanks for joining me.Michael: Thank you for having me. You're also making me feel very, very old there. So, uh, yes.Corey: I hear you. I keep telling people, I'm in my mid-30s, and my wife gets incensed because I'm turning 40 in July. But still. I go for the idea of yeah, the middle is expanding all the time, but it's always disturbing talking to people who are in our sector, who are younger than some of the code that we're using, which is just bizarre to me. We're all standing on the backs of giants. Like it or not, one of them's you.Michael: Oh, well, thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, I was, like, talking to some undergrads, I was doing a little bit of stuff helping out my alma mater for a little bit, and teaching somebody the REST lecture. I was like, “In another year, REST is going to be older than everybody in the room.” And then I was just kind of… scared.Corey: Yeah. It's been a wild ride for basically everyone who's been around long enough if you don't fall off the teeter-totter and wind up breaking a limb somewhere. So, back in the bad old days, before cloud, when everything was no longer things back then were constrained by how much room you had on your credit card like they are today with cloud, but instead by things like how much space you had in the data center, what kind of purchase order you could ram through your various accounting departments. And one of the big problems you have is, great. So, finally—never on time—Dell has shipped out a whole bunch of servers—or HP or Supermicro or whoever—and the remote hands—which is always distinct from smart hands, which says something very insulting, but they seem to be good about it—would put them into racks for you.And great, so you'd walk in and see all of these brand new servers with nothing on them. How do we go ahead and configure these things? And by hand was how most of us started, and that means, oh, great, we're going to screw things up and not do them all quite the same, and it's just a treasure and a joy. Cobbler was something that you came up with that revolutionized how provisioning of bare-metal systems worked. Tell me about it.Michael: Yeah, um, so it's basically just glue. So, the story of how I came up with that is I was working for the Emerging Technologies Group at Red Hat, and I just joined. And they were like, “We have to have a solution to install Xen and KVM virtual machines.” So obviously, everybody's familiar with, like, EC2 and things now, but this was about people running non-VMware virtualization themselves. So, that was part of the problem, but in order to make that interesting, we really needed to have some automation around bare-metal installs.And that's PXE boot. So, it's TFTP and DHCP protocol and all that kind of boring stuff. And there was glue that existed, but it was usually humans would have to click on buttons to—like Red Hat had system-config-netboot, but what really happened was sysadmins all wrote their own automation at, like, every single company. And the idea that I had, and it was sort of cemented by the fact that, like, my boss, a really good guy left for another company and I didn't have a boss for, like, a couple years, was like, I'm just going to make IRC my boss, and let's get all these admins together and build a tool we can share, right?So, that was a really good experience, and it's just basically gluing all that stuff together to fully automate an install over a network so that when a system comes on, you can either pick it out from a menu; or maybe you've already got the MAC address and you can just say, “When you see this MAC address, go install this operating system.” And there's a kickstart file, or a preseed in the case of Debian, that says, “When you're booting up through the installer, basically, here's just the answers and go do these things.” And that install processes a lot slower than what we're used to, but for a bare-metal machine, that's a pretty good way to do it.Corey: Yeah, it got to a point where you could walk through and just turn on all the servers in a rack and go out to lunch, come back, they would all be configured and ready to go. And it sounds relatively basic the way we're talking about it now, but there were some gnarly cases. Like, “When I've rebooted the database server, why did it wipe itself and reprovision?” And it's, “Oh, dear.” And you have to make sure that things are—that there's a safety built into these things.And you also don't want to have to wind up plugging in a keyboard and monitor to all of these individual machines one-by-one to hit yes and acknowledge the thing. And it was a colossal pain in the ass. That's one of the things that cloud has freed us from.Michael: Yeah, definitely. And one of the nice things about the whole cloud environment is like, if you want to experiment with those ideas, like, I want to set up some DHCP or DNS, I don't have to have this massive lab and all the electricity and costs. But like, if I want to play with a load balancer, I can just get one. That kind of gives the experience of playing with all these data center technologies to everybody, which is pretty cool.Corey: On some level, you can almost view the history of all these things as speeding things up. With a well-tuned Cobbler install, it still took multiple minutes, in some cases, tens of minutes to go from machine you're powering on to getting it provisioned and ready to go. Virtual machines dropped that down to minutes. And cloud, of course, accelerated that a bit. But then you wind up with things like Docker and it gets down to less than a second. It's the meantime to dopamine.But in between the world of containers and bare-metal, there was another project—again, the one you're best known for—Ansible. Tell me about that because I have opinions on this whole space.Michael: [laugh]. Yeah. So, how Ansible got started—well, I guess configuration management is pretty old, so the people writing their own scripts, CFEngine came out, Puppet was a much better CFEngine. I was working at a company and I kind of wanted another open-source project because I enjoyed the Cobbler experience. So, I started Ansible on the side, kind of based on some frustrations around Puppet but also the desire to unify Capistrano kind of logic, which was like, “How do I push out my apps onto these servers that are already running,” with Puppet-style logic was like, “Is this computer's firewall configured directly? And is the time set correctly?”And you can obviously use that to install apps, but there's some places where that blurred together where a lot of people are using two different tools. And there's some prior art that I worked on called Funk, which I wrote with Seth Vidal and Adrian Likins at Red Hat, which was, like, 50% of the Ansible idea, and we just never built the config management layer on top. So, the idea was make something really, really simple that just uses SSH, which was controversial at the time because people thought it, like, wouldn't scale, because I was having trouble with setting up Puppet security because, like, it had DNS or timing issues or whatever.Corey: Yeah. Let's dive in a bit to what config management is first because it turns out that not everyone was living in the trenches in quite the same way that we were. I was a traveling trainer for Puppet for a summer once, and the best descriptor I found to explain it to people who are not in this space was, “All right, let's say that you go and you buy a new computer. What do you do? Well, you're going to install the applications you'd like to use, you're going to set up your own user account, you're going to set your password correctly, you're going to set up preferences, copy some files over so you have the stuff you care about. Great. Now, imagine you need to do that to a thousand computers and they all need to be the same. How do you do that?” Well, that is the world of configuration management.And there was sort of a bifurcation there, where there was the idea of, first, we're going to have configuration management that just describes what the system should look like, and that's going to run on a schedule or whatnot, and then you're going to have the other side of it, which is the idea of remote execution, of I want to run an arbitrary command on this server, or this set of servers, or all the servers, depending upon what it is. And depending on where you started on the side of that world, you wound up wanting things from the other side of that space. With Puppet, for example, is very oriented configuration management and the question became, well, can you use this for remote execution with arbitrary commands? And they wound up doing some work with Mcollective, which was a very complicated and expensive way to say, “No, not really.” There was a need for things that needed to hang out in that space.The two that really stuck out from that era were Ansible, which had its wild runaway success, and the one that I was smacking around for a bit, SaltStack, which never saw anywhere approaching that level of popularity.Michael: Yeah, sure. I mean, I think that you hit it pretty much exactly right. And it's hard to say what makes certain things take off, but I think, like, the just SSH approach was interesting because, well for one, everybody's running it. But there was this belief that this would not scale. And I tried to optimize the heck out of that because I liked performance, but it turns out that wasn't really a business problem because if you can imagine you just wrote this little bit of automation, and you're going to run it against your entire infrastructure and you've got 30,000 machines, do you want that to—if you were to, like, run an update command on 30,000 machines at once, you're going to DDoS something. Definitely, right?Corey: Yeah. Suddenly you have 30,000 machines all talk to the same things at the same times. And you want to do them in batches or smear it across.Michael: Right, so because that was there, like, you just add batch support in Ansible and things are fine, right? People want to target little small groups of things. So, like, that whole story wasn't true, and I think it was just a matter of testing this belief that everybody thought that we needed to have this whole network of things. And honestly, Salt's idea of using a message bus is great, but we took a little bit different approach with YAML because we have YAML variables in it, but they had something that compiled down to YAML. And I think those are some differences in the dialect and some things other people preferred, but—Corey: And they use Jinja, at one point to wind up making it effectively Turing complete; you could wind up having this ridicu—like, loop flow control and loops and the rest. And it was an interesting exposure to things, but yikes, at some l—at the same time.Michael: If you use all the language features in anything you can make something complicated, and too complicated. And I was like, I wanted automation to look like grocery lists. And when I started out, I said, “Hey, if anybody is doing this all day, for a day job, I will have failed.” And it clearly shows you that I have because there are people that are doing that all day. And the goal was, let me concentrate on dev and ops and my other things and keep this really, really simple.And some people just, like, get really, really into that automation technology, which is—in my opinion—why some of the earlier stuff was really popular because sysadmin were bored, so they see something new and it's kind of like a Java developer finding Perl for the first time. They're like, “I'm going to use all these things.” And they have all their little widgets, and it gets, like, really complicated.Corey: The thing that I always found interesting and terrifying at the same time about Ansible was the fact that you did ride on top of SSH, which is great because every company already had a way of controlling access by SSH to IT systems; everyone uses it, so it has an awful lot of eyes on the security protocol on the rest. The thing that I found terrifying in the early days was that more or less every ops person would wind up checking this out onto their laptop or whatnot, so whenever they wanted to run something, they would just run it from their laptop over a VPN or whatnot from wherever they happen to be, and you wind up with a dueling banjos type of circumstance where people were often not doing it from a centralized place. And in time, best practices emerged where, okay, that is going to be the command and control server where that runs at, and you log into it. And then you start guarding that with CI/CD flows and the rest. And like anything else, it wound up building some operational approaches to it.Michael: Yeah. Like, I kind of think that created a problem that allowed us to sell a product, right, which was good. If you knew what you were doing, you could use Jenkins completely and you'd be fine, right, if you had some level of discipline and access control, and you wanted to wire that up. And if you think about cloud, this whole, like, shadow IT idea of, “I just want to do this thing, therefore I'm going to get an Amazon account,” it's kind of the same thing. It's like, “I want to use this config management, but it's not approved. Who can stop me?” Right?And that kind of probably got us in the door in few accounts that way. But yeah, it did definitely create the problem where multiple people could be running things at the same time. So yeah, I mean, that's true.Corey: And the idea of, “Hey, maybe I should be controlling these things in Git,” or some other form of version control was sort of one of those evolutionary ideas that, oh, we could treat this like code. And the early days of DevOps, that was a controversial thing. These days, you say you're not doing it and people look at you very strangely. And things were going reasonably well in that direction for a while. Then this whole Docker thing showed up, where, well, what if instead of having these long-lived servers where you have to install updates and run patches and maintain a whole user list on them, instead you had this immutable infrastructure that every time there was a change, you would just go ahead and deploy a brand new set of servers?And you could do this in the olden days with virtual machines and whatnot; it just took a long time to push things out, so do I really want to roll the entire fleet for a two-line config change? Probably not, so we're going to batch it up, or maybe do this hybrid model. With Docker, it takes less than a second to wind up provisioning the—switching over to the new container series and you're done; you can keep going with that. That really solved a lot of these problems.But there were companies that, like, the entire configuration management space, who suddenly found themselves in a really weird position. Some of them tried to fight the tide forever and say, “Oh, this is terrible because it means we don't have a business model anymore.” But you can only fight the future for so long. And I think today, we'd be hard-pressed to say that Docker hasn't won, on some level.Michael: I mean, I think it has, like, the technology has won. But I guess the interesting thing is, config management now seems to be trying to pivot towards networking where I think the tool hasn't ever been designed for networking, so it's kind of a round peg, square hole. But it's all people have that unless they're buying something. Or, like, deploying the undercloud because, like, people are still running essentially clouds on top of clouds to get their Kubernetes deployments going and those are monstrous. Or maybe to deploy a data layer; like, I know Kafka has gotten off of ZooKeeper, but the Kafka-ZooKeeper thing—and I don't remember ZooKeeper [unintelligible 00:14:37] require [unintelligible 00:14:38] or not, but managing those sort of long, persistent implications, it still has a little bit of a place where it exists.But I mean, I think the whole immutable systems idea is theoretically completely great. I never was really happy with the whole Docker development workflow, and I think it does create a problem where people don't know what they're deploying and you kind of encourage that to where they could be deploying different versions of libraries, or—and that's kind of just a problem of the whole microservices thing in general where, “Did somebody change this?” And then I was working very briefly at one company where we essentially built a whole dashboard to detect service versions and what version of the base image everybody was on, and all these other things, and it can get out of hand, too. So, it's kind of like trading some problems for other problems, I think to me. But in general, containerization is good. I just wished the management glue around it was easy, right?Corey: I wound up giving a talk at a conference a while back, 2015 or so, called, “Heresy in the Church of Docker,” and it was a throwaway five-minute lightning talk, and someone approached me afterwards with, “Hey, can you give the full version of that at ContainerCon?” “There's a full version? Yes. Yes, I can.” And it talked about a number of problems with the management layer and the rest.Now, Kubernetes absolutely solves virtually every problem that I identified with it, but when you look at the other side of it, getting Kubernetes rolled out is effectively you get to cosplay being a cloud provider yourself. It is incredibly complicated, and of course, we're right back to managing it all with YAML.Michael: Right. And I think that's an interesting point, too, is I don't know who's exactly responsible for, like, the YAML explosion. And I like it as a data format; it's really good for humans. Cobbler originally used it more of an internal storage, which I think was a mistake because, like, even—I was trying to avoid setting up a database at the time, so—because I knew if I had to require setting up a database in 2007 or 2008, I'd get way less users, so it used flat files.A lot of the YAML dialects people are developing now are very, very nested and they requires, like, loading a webpage, for the Docks, like, all the time and reading what's valid here, what's valid there. I think people learn the wrong lesson from Ansible's YAML usage, right? It was supposed to be, like, YAML's good for things that are grocery lists. And there's a lot of places where I didn't do a good job. But when you see methods taking 15 parameters and you have to constantly have the reference up, maybe that's a sign that you should do something else.Corey: At least you saved us, on some level, from having to do this all in XML. But still, there are wrong ways and more wrong ways to do it. I don't think anyone could ever agree on the right way to approach these things.Michael: Yeah. I mean, and YAML, at the time was a good answer because I knew I didn't want to write and maintain a parser as, like, a guy that was running a project. We had a lot of awesome contributors, but if I had to also maintain a DSL, not only does that mean that I have to write the code for this thing—which I, you know, observed slowing down some other projects—but also that I'd have to explain it to people. Looking kind of like Bash was not a bad thing. Not having to know and learn something, so you can kind of feel really effective in about 15 minutes or something like that.Corey: One of the things that I find really interesting about you personally is that you were starting off in a bare-metal world; Ansible was sort of wherever you wanted to run it. Great, as long as there are systems that can receive these things, we're great. And now the world has changed, and for better or worse, configuration management slash remote execution is not the problem it once was and it is not a best practice way of solving a lot of those problems either. But you aren't spending your time basically remembering the glory years. You're actively moving forward doing some fairly interesting stuff. How would you describe what you're into these days?Michael: I tried to create a few projects to, like, kind of build other systems management things for the same audience for a while. I was building a build server and a new—trying to do some next-gen config stuff. And I saw people weren't interested. But I like having conversations with people, right, and I think one of the lessons from Ansible was how to explain highly technical things to technical audiences and cut out a lot of the marketing goo and all that; how to get people excited about an idea and make a community be really authentic. So, I've been writing about that for really, it's—rebooted blog is only a couple of weeks old. But also kind of trying to do some—helping out companies with some, like, basic marketing kind of stuff, right?There's just this pattern that everybody has where every website starts with this little basic slogan and two buttons and then there's a bunch of adjectives, but it doesn't say anything. So, how can you have really good documentation, and how can you explain an idea? Because, like, really, the reason you're in it is not just to sell stuff, but it's to help people and to see them get excited about your ideas. And there's just, like, we're not doing a good job in this, like, world where there's thousands upon thousands of applications, all competing at once to, like—how do you rise above that?Corey: And that's always the hard part is at some point, this does become your identity and you become known for a thing. And when you start branching out from that thing, you bring the expertise from that area that you were in, but you start applying it to new things. I feel like so many companies get focused—and people get focused—on assuming that their audience is just like them, where they're coming in with the exact same biases, the exact same experiences. And given that basically no one was as deep in the weeds as you were when it came to configuration management, that meant that you were spending time in that side of the world, not in other pursuits which aligned in some ways more directly with people developing other things. So, I suspect this might be one of the weird things we have in common when we show up and see something new.And a company is really excited. It's like, it's basically a few people talking [unintelligible 00:20:12] that both founders are technical. And they're super excited about something they can't quite articulate. And it's this, “Slow down. Tell me exactly what it is your product does.” And that's a hard thing to do because my default response was always the if I don't understand that is clearly the way in which I am deficient somehow. But marketing is really about clear communication and there's not that much of it in our space, at least not for early-stage companies.Michael: Yeah, I don't know why that is. I mean, I think there's this belief in that there's, like, this buyer audience where there's some vice president that's going to buy your stuff if you drop the right buzzwords. And 15 years ago, like, you had to say ‘synergy,' and now you say ‘time to value' or ‘total cost of ownership' or something. And I don't think that's true. I mean, I think people use products that they like and that they need to be shown them to try them out.So like, why can't your webpage have a diagram and a screenshot instead of this, like, picture of a couple of people drinking coffee around a computer, right? It's basic stuff. But I agree with you, I kind of feel dumb when I'm looking at all these tech products that I should be excited about, and, like, the way that we get there, as we ask questions. And the way that I've actually figured out what some of these things do is usually having to ask questions from someone who uses them that I randomly find on my diminishing circle of friends, right? And that's kind of busted.So, Ansible definitely had a lot of privilege in the way that it was launched in the sense that I launched it off Cobbler list and Cobbler list started off of [ET Management Tools 00:21:34] which was a company list. But people can do things like meetup groups really easily, they can give talks, they can get their blogs reblogged, and, you know, hope for some Hacker News or Reddit juice or whatever. But in order to get that to happen, you have to be able to talk to engineers that really want to know what you're doing, and they should be excited about it. So, learn to talk to them.Corey: You have to speak their language but without going so deep in the weeds that the only people that understand it are the folks who are never going to use your product because they want to build it themselves. It's a delicate balance to strike.Michael: And it's a difficult thing to do, too, when you know about it. So, when I was, like, developing all the Ansible docs, I've told people many times—and I hope it's true—that I, like, spent, like, 40% of my time just on the website and the docs, and whenever I heard somebody complain, I tried to fix it. But the idea was like, you can lose somebody really fast, but you kind of have to forget what you know about the product. So, the worst person to sometimes look at that as the person that built it. So, you have to forget what you know, and try to see, like, what questions they're asking, what do they need to find out? How do they want to learn something?And for me, I want to see a lot of pictures. A lot of people write a bunch of giant walls of text, or worse for me is when there's just these little pithy expressions and I don't know what they mean, right? And everybody's, like, kind of doing that these days.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at ChaosSearch. You could run Elasticsearch or Elastic Cloud—or OpenSearch as they're calling it now—or a self-hosted ELK stack. But why? ChaosSearch gives you the same API you've come to know and tolerate, along with unlimited data retention and no data movement. Just throw your data into S3 and proceed from there as you would expect. This is great for IT operations folks, for app performance monitoring, cybersecurity. If you're using Elasticsearch, consider not running Elasticsearch. They're also available now in the AWS marketplace if you'd prefer not to go direct and have half of whatever you pay them count towards your EDB commitment. Discover what companies like Equifax, Armor Security, and Blackboard already have. To learn more, visit chaossearch.io and tell them I sent you just so you can see them facepalm, yet again.48]Corey: One thing that I've really found myself enjoying recently has been your substack-based newsletter, Speaking Techis what you call it. And I didn't quite know what to expect when I signed up for it, but it's been a few weeks now, and you are more or less hitting across the board on a bunch of different things, ranging from engineering design patterns, to a teardown of random company's entire website from a marketing and messaging perspective—which I just adore personally; like that is very aligned with how I see the world—Michael: There's more of that coming.Corey: Yeah, [unintelligible 00:23:17] a bunch of other stuff. Let's talk about, for example, the idea of those teardowns. I always found that I have to be somewhat careful in how I talk about it when I'm doing a tweet thread or something like that because you are talking about people's work, let's be clear here, and I tend to be a lot kinder to small, early-stage companies than I am to, you know, $1.6 trillion companies who really should have solved for this by now, on some level. But so much of it misses the mark of great, here's the way that I think about these things. Here's the way that I don't understand what the hell you're telling me.An easy example of this for me, at least I'm curious to get your thoughts on it, I tend to almost always just skim what they're saying, great. Let's look at the pricing page because I find that speaks to people in a way that very often companies forget that they're speaking to customers.Michael: Yeah, for sure. I always tried to find the product page lately, and then, like, the product page now is, like, a regurgitation of the homepage. But it's what you said earlier. I think I try to stay nice to everybody, but it's good to show people how to understand things by counterexample, to some extent, right? Like, oh, I've got some stuff coming out—I don't know when this is actually going to get published—but next week, where I was like just taking random snippets of home pages, and like, “What's everybody doing with the header these days?”And there's just, like, ridiculous amounts of copying going on. But it's not just for, like, people's companies because everybody listening here isn't going to have a company. If you have a project and you wanted to get it noticed, right, I think, like, in the early days, the projects that I paid attention to and got excited about were often the ones that spend time on their website and their messaging and their experience. So, everybody kind of understands you have to write a good readme now but some of, like, the early Ruby crowd, for instance, did awesome, awesome web pages. They know how to pick out fonts, and I still don't know how to pick out fonts. But—Corey: I ask someone good at those things. That's how I pick ‘em.Michael: Yeah, yeah. That's not my job; get somebody that's good at that. But all that matters, right? So, if you do invest a little bit in not promoting yourself, not promoting your company, but trying to help people and communicate to them, you can build that audience around your thing and it makes it a lot more interesting.Corey: There's so many great tools out there that I find on GitHub that other people have to either point me to or I find it when I'm looking at it from a code-first perspective, just trying to find a particular example of the library being used, where they do such a terrible job of describing the problem that they solve, and it doesn't take much; it takes a paragraph or two at most. Or the idea that, “Oh, yeah, here's a way to do this thing. Just go ahead and get your credential file somewhere else.” Great. Could you maybe link to an example of how to do that?It's the basic stuff; assume that someone who isn't you might possibly want to use this. And I'm not even slightly suggesting that you wind up talking your way through how to do all of that. Just link to somewhere that has a good write-up of it and call it good. Just don't get in the way of people's first-time user experiences.Michael: Yeah, for sure. And—Corey: For some reason, that's a radical thought.Michael: Yeah, I think one of the things the industry has—well, not the industry; it's not their problem to solve, but, like, we don't really have a way for people to find what's cool and interesting anymore. So, various people have their own little lists on GitHub or whatever, but there's just so many people posting on the one or two forums people read and it goes by in a day. So, it's really, really hard to get attention. Even your own circle of followers isn't really logging into Twitter or anything, or LinkedIn. Or there's all the congratulations for your five years of Acme Corp kind of posts, and it's really, really hard to get attention.And I feel for everybody, so like, if somebody like GitHub or Microsoft is listening, and you wanted to build, like, a dashboard of here's the cool 15 projects for the week, kind of thing where everybody would see it, and start spotlight some of these really cool new things, that would be awesome, right?Corey: Whenever you see those roundups, that was things like Kubernetes and Docker. And great, I don't think those projects need the help in the same way.Michael: No, no, they don't. It's like maybe somebody's cool data thing, or a cool visualization, or the other thing that's—it's completely random, but I used to write fun graphics programs for fun or games and libraries. And I don't see that anymore, right? Maybe if you find it, you can look for it, but the things that get people excited about programming. Maybe they have no commercial value at all, but the way that people discover stuff is getting so consolidated is about Docker and Kubernetes. And everyone's talking about these three things, and if you're not Google or you're not Facebook, it's really—or Amazon, obviously—it's hard to get attention.Corey: Open-source on some level has changed from a community perspective. And part of it is because once upon a time, you could start with the very low-level stuff and build something, get it up and working. And that's where things like [Cobbler 00:27:44] and Ansible came out of. Now it's, “Click the button and use the thing everyone else is using. And if you're not doing that, what are you doing over there?”So, the idea of getting started tinkering with computers are built on top of so many frameworks and other things. And that's always been the case, but now it's much more apparent in some ways. “Okay, I'm going to go ahead and build out my first HTML file and serve it out using something in Node.” “Great, what is those NPM stuff that's scrolling past?” It's like, “The devil. That is the devil's own language you are seeing scroll past. And you don't need to worry about that; just pretend it's not there.”But back when I was learning all this stuff, we're paying attention to things scrolling past, like, you know, compilation messages and the Linux boot story as it wound up scrolling past. Terrible story; the protagonist was unreliable, but all right. And you start learning how these things work when you start scratching at the things that you're just sort of hand-waving and glossing over. These days, it feels like every time I use a modern project, that's everything.Michael: I mean, it is. And like what, React has, like, 2000 dependencies, right? So, how do you ever feel like you understand it? Or when recruiters are asking for ten years at Amazon. And then—or we find a library that it can only explain itself by being like this other library and requiring these other five.And you read one of those, and it becomes, like, this… tree of knowledge that you have no way of possibly understanding. So, we've just built these stacks upon stacks upon stacks of things. And I tend to think I kind of believe in minimalism. And like, wouldn't it be cool if we just burned this all and start—you know, we burn the forest and let something new regrow. But we tend to not do that. We just—now running a cloud on top of a cloud, and our JavaScript is thousands of miles high.Corey: I really wish that there were better paths for getting started. Like, I used to think that the right way to wind up learning how all this stuff work is to do what I did: Start off as, you know, the grumpy sysadmin type, and then—or help desk—and then work your way up and the rest. Those jobs aren't there anymore, and it doesn't leave people in a productive environment. “Oh, you want to build a computer game. Great. For an iPhone? Terrific.” Where do you go to get started on that? It's a hard thing to do.And people don't care at that scale, nor should they necessarily, on how to run your own servers. Back in the day when you wanted to have a blog on the internet, you were either reduced to using LiveJournal or MySpace, or you were running your own web server and had to learn how to make sure that it didn't become an attack platform. There was a learning curve that was fairly steep. Now, there are so many different paths to go down, you don't really need to know how any of these things even work.Michael: Yeah, I think, like, one of the—I don't know whether DevOps means anything as a topic or not, but one of the original pieces around that movement was systems administrators learning to code things and really starting to enjoy it, whether that was Python or Ruby, and so on. And now it feels like we're gluing all the things together, but that's happening in App Dev as well, right? The number of people that can build a really, really good library from the ground up, like, something that has C bindings, that's a really, really small crowd. And most of it, what we're doing is gluing together other people's libraries and compensating for the flaws and bugs in them, and duct tape and error handling or whatever. And it feels like programming has changed a lot because of this—and it's good if you want to get an idea up quickly, no doubt. But it's a different experience.Corey: The problem I always ran into was the similar problems I had with doing Debian packaging. It was always the, oh, great, there's going to be four or five different guides on how to do it—same story with RPM—and they're all going to be assuming different things, and you can crossover between them without realizing it. And then you just do something monstrous that kind of works until an actual Debian developer shoves you aside like you were a hazard to everyone around you. Let me do it for you. And there we go.It's basically, get people to do work for you by being really bad at it. And I don't love that pattern, but I'm still reminded of that because there are so many different ways to achieve any outcome that, okay, I want to run a ridiculous Hotdog or Not Hotdog style website out there. Great. I can upload things. Well, Docker or serverless? What provider do I want to put it on? And oh, by the way, a lot of those decisions very early on are one-way doors that you don't realize you're crossing through, as well as not knowing what the nuances of all of those things are. And that's dangerous.Michael: I think people are also learning the vendor as well, right? Some people get really engrossed in whether it's Amazon, or Google, or HashiCorp, or somebody's API, and you spend so much of your brain cells just learning how these people's systems work versus, like, general programming practices or whatever.Corey: I make it a point to build something on other cloud providers that aren't Amazon every now and then, just because I don't want to wind up effectively embracing a monoculture.Michael: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that's kind of the trend I see with people looking just at the Kubernetes stuff, or whatever, it's that I don't think it necessarily existed in web dev; there seems to be a lot of—still a lot of creativity and different frameworks there, but people are kind of… what's popular? What gets me my next job, and that kind of thing. Whereas before it was… I wasn't necessarily a sysadmin; I kind of stumbled into building admin tools. I kind of made hammers not houses or whatever, but basically, everybody was kind of building their own tools and deciding what they wanted. Now, like, people that are wanting to make money or deciding what people want for them. And it's kind of not always the simplest, easiest thing.Corey: So, many open-source projects now are—for example, one that I was dealing with recently was the AWS CLI. Great, like, I'm thrilled to throw in issues and challenges here, but I'm not going to spend significant time writing code against it because, one, it's basically impossible to get these things accepted when all the maintainers work at Amazon, and two, is it really an open-source project in the way that you and I think about community and the rest, but it's basically sole purpose is to funnel money to Amazon faster. Like, that isn't really a community ethos I feel comfortable getting behind to be perfectly honest. They're a big company; they can afford to pay people to build these things out, full time.Michael: Yeah. And GitHub, I mean, we all mostly, I think, appreciate the fact that we can host the Git repo and it's performant and everything, and we don't have blazing unicorns quite as often or whatever they used to have, but it kind of changed the whole open-source culture because we used to talk about things on mailing lists, like, what should this be, and there was like an upfront conversation, or it might happen on IRC. And now people are used to just saying, “I've got a problem. Fix it for me.” Or they're throwing code over the wall and it might not be the code or feature that you wanted because they're not really part of your thing.So before, people would get really engrossed with, like, just a couple of projects, and if they were working on them as kind of like a collective of people working against different organizations, we'd talk about things, and they kind of know what was going on. And now it's very easy to get a patch that you don't want and you're, like, “Oh, can you change all of these things?” And then somebody's, like, now they're offended because now they have to do all this extra work, whereas that conversation didn't happen. And GitHub could absolutely remodel themselves to encourage those kinds of conversations and communities, but part of the death of open-source and the fact that now it's, “Give me free code,” is because of that kind of absence of the—because we're looking at that is, like, the front of a community versus, like, a conversation.Corey: I really want to appreciate your taking so much time out of your day to basically reminisce about some of these things. But on a forward-looking basis, if people want to learn more about how you see things, where's the best place to find you?Michael: Yeah. So, if you're interested in my blog, it's pretty random, but it's michaeldehaan.substack.com. I run a small emerging consultancy thing off of michaeldehaan.net. And that's basically it. My Twitter is laserllama if you want to follow that. Yeah, thank you very much for having me. Great conversation. Definitely making all this technology feel old and busted, but maybe there's still some merit in going back—Corey: Old and busted because it wasn't built this year? Great—Michael: Yes.Corey: —yes, its legacy, which is a condescending engineering term for ‘it makes money.' Yeah, there's an entire universe of stuff out there. There are companies that are still toying with virtualization: “Is this something we get on board with?” There's nothing inherently wrong with that. I find that judging what a bunch of startups are doing or ‘company started today' is a poor frame of reference to look at what you should do with your 200-year-old insurance company.Michael: Yeah, like, [unintelligible 00:35:53] software engineering is just ridiculously new. Like, if you compare it to, like, bridge-building, or even electrical engineering, right? The industry doesn't know what it's doing and it's kind of stumbling around trying to escape local maxima and things like that.Corey: I will, of course, put links to where to find you into the [show notes 00:36:09]. Thanks again for being so generous with your time. It's appreciated.Michael: Yeah, thank you very much.Corey: Michael DeHaan, founder of Cobbler, Ansible, and oh, so much more than that. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice—and/or smash the like and subscribe buttons on the YouTubes—whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, smash the buttons as mentioned, and leave a loud, angry comment explaining what you hated about it that I will then summarily reject because it wasn't properly formatted YAML.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

alifornia Adventure for 2023. Disney Vacation Club also revealed Top of the World will be reopening, the 2023 DVC Member Cruise, and the name for the new DVC Disneyland Tower.

Shannon and Pete discuss the announcement of the return of Mickey's Not So Scary Halloween Party at Magic Kingdom and Oogie Boogie Bash at Disney California Adventure for 2023. Disney Vacation Club also revealed Top of the World will be reopening, the 2023 DVC Member Cruise, and the name for the new DVC Disneyland Tower. N077 Season 7 of the My DVC Points Podcast was brought to you by: DVC Resale Market - Industry Leader in DVC Resales DVC Rental Store - DVC Point Rentals Monera Financial - Exclusively Financing DVC Contracts Patreon supporters in the My DVC Points VIP Producer Club. DVC announces Top of the World Lounge at Bay Lake Tower to re-open Disney Vacation Club announced in an e-mail to members that the Top of the World Lounge will be reopening soon. The Top of the World Lounge is located on the 16th floor of Bay Lake Tower at Disney's Contemporary Resort and offers spectacular views of Magic Kingdom Park for Members and their Guests. The opening date has not yet been announced. Source: DVC Member E-mail Disney announces return of MNSSHP and Oogie Boogie Bash This fall, ghosts and ghouls of all ages are invited to don their favorite costumes and celebrate all things haunted during Mickey's Not-So-Scary Halloween Party. Taking place on 37 select nights Aug. 12 through Oct. 31, 2022, this special event haunts Magic Kingdom Park after normal park operating hours from 7 p.m. to midnight. Tickets for Mickey's Not-So-Scary Halloween Party may be purchased online beginning May 18. Guests of select Walt Disney World Resort hotels can begin purchasing tickets as early as May 12. Ticket prices will range from $109 – $199. Also, Oogie Boogie Bash – A Disney Halloween Party, will officially return this upcoming Halloween season! This separately ticketed, limited-capacity, after-hours event at Disney California Adventure park is a seasonal guest favorite, and we're delighted to share that it will be returning on select nights in fall 2022.  No dates have been announced yet. Source: Disney Parks Blog, Disney Parks Blog 2023 DVC Member Cruise announced Hoist the anchor and sail away on a dream cruise to The Bahamas! Disney Vacation Club is excited to announce the 2023 DVC Member cruise. This 4-night, round-trip Disney Cruise Line sailing from Port Canaveral aboard the Disney Wish, the newest ship in the fleet, takes you to Disney Castaway Cay, a private island oasis, and Nassau in The Bahamas. The Member cruise includes daily themed gifts delivered to Members' staterooms and entertainment created just for the Member Cruise! Dates are September 4 - 8, 2023. No information on booking date or pricing has been announced.  Source: Disney Vacation Club Website Disney Hotel DVC has official name! Construction on the new Disney Vacation Club tower has gone vertical, and it finally has a name, “The Villas at Disneyland Hotel.” Disney has also confirmed that a walkway is being built for Paradise Pier Hotel guests to access Disney California Adventure directly. The walkway will be located across the crosswalk from the hotel near the entry into the parking lot for the Grand Californian Hotel. Disney is currently updating the Paradise Pier Hotel with Pixar theming, Source: Mice Chat My DVC Points is an awesome community of DVC members. Our positive, respectful, and authentic conversations about Disney Vacation Club are designed to help people make informed and educated decisions about what's best for their families. Please join us to continue the conversations on our Facebook Group, Discord Server, and YouTube channel. It takes an awesome community of DVC members to produce our content. We're always recruiting people to help research, produce, edit, or join our shows to share their stories. Thus far, we've had over 225 DVC members on our shows. If our content has been a blessing to your family, please consider supporting our show through our VIP Producer's Club at Patreon.com and join us for the Patreon After-Party from our live shows. Facebook admins and moderators of the My DVC Points Community Group: Sandy Symianick, Gina Grotsky, Shannon Ford, Caleb Allison, and Mary Anne Tracy. "Take Flight" music by Martinrowberry1 on Pond5.