China Voices: The AmCham Shanghai Podcast

Newly appointed AmCham Shanghai President Eric Zheng sat down with us to talk about the growth of international business in Shanghai over the last 50 years. As we approach the 50th commemoration of the signing of the Shanghai Communiqué, Eric reflects on what it was like to be a student in Shanghai that day, and how the city has evolved since.  Eric delves into the greatest market opportunities for foreign firms in not only Shanghai but the greater Yangtze River Delta region, and what firms need to know about expanding outside the city. Finally, Eric offers his thoughts on how the U.S. and China can foster collaborative exchanges moving forward.  A note from China Voices host Kate Magill: This is my final episode as host of China Voices. Thanks to everyone who came on the show to share their expertise, and everyone who has listened to the show and helped it grow!

This week we talked with former US Consul General in Shanghai Sean Stein. After stepping down from his post last year, Sean now serves as a senior advisor at international law firm Covington & Burling. Sean joined us on the show to discuss some of the biggest risks US businesses in China face right now and what strategies and scenario planning executive teams can use to mitigate that risk, including on issues such as the threat of consumer boycotts and disruptive export controls. Sean also offers his perspective on how companies, as well as the US and Chinese governments, can build and maintain public trust in both countries, and why the way firms characterize their China operations to US audiences matters.  Finally, Sean talks about why cooperation between the US and China should be aggressively pursued when possible, and why he thinks people need to pay more attention to what Chinese officials are reading if they want to know where policy is headed.

This week, we discussed Chinese clothing brand NEIWAI's recent expansion from China to the US with brand director Hailey Xue. NEIWAI made waves in 2020 for its viral "No Body is Nobody" campaign, and has recently launched an online presence in the US, taking on established competitors like Victoria's Secret. Hailey discusses how she led her team to create the popular 2020 marketing campaign, and what lessons NEIWAI has learned through its expansion from the East to the West.  We also discuss the evolution of China's clothing retail market and how it compares to the US. Finally, Hailey talks about how NEIWAI is carving a niche for itself in the US and what advice she has for other brands looking to make the leap from the China market to the US. 

On this episode we sat down with AmCham Shanghai President Ker Gibbs during his final weeks in China. Ker is ending his time in China after 19 years here, including the past three as AmCham Shanghai president. Ker shares his thoughts on the state of US business in China and how companies can navigate current challenges, including changing data regulations and tense bilateral relations. He also offers his views on why an open market is important for China, and what he hopes the next year brings for US businesses here. 

This episode we talked with Hang Seng Bank (China)'s Chief Economist, Dan Wang, about China's economic outlook at the end of 2021. Dan begins by offering her assessment of China's 2021 economic performance, particularly in consumption, as well as her China GDP forecast for 2022.  Dan then digs into China's shift from a development-driven economy to a consumption-backed one, and how long she thinks China can keep up its strong export demand. Finally, we discuss the longer-term outlook for China's economic growth, and what economic policy developments Dan expects to see in the coming year. 

This episode we're discussing the state of US-China trade relations with David Dollar. David is a senior fellow in the John L. Thornton China Center at the Brookings Institution and host of the Brookings trade podcast, Dollar&Sense.  We discuss David's reaction to USTR Katherine Tai's recent strategy outline of the US trade strategy towards China. David offers his thoughts on Tai's stance on a structured "recoupling" between the US and China, and why he believes the US should rethink its tariffs on China. We also discuss the use of reciprocity between the US and China on trade and market access issues, and on what to expect for 2022 trade talks.  

This episode, we spoke with Popeye's China CEO Raphael Coelho about the restaurant chain's expansion into China. Popeye's launched its first China location in May 2020 in Shanghai, the first of what the company hopes will be 1,500 stores in the next decade. We chat about how Popeye's has planned where to build restaurants and what its social media strategy has been to build hype around new location openings.  Raphael also offers his thoughts on the outlook for China's fast-food restaurant, and if there are any domestic brands that he says are serious competitors in the market. Finally, he offers a hint at what's next for Popeye's China and what fans can look forward to in the near future. 

This episode we're talking with fintech expert Michael Sung about China's upcoming national launch of its central bank digital currency (CBDC). Michael is the founding co-director of the Fudan Fanhai Fintech Research Center at Fudan University and the chairman of the cross-border technology-transfer company CarbonBlue Innovations.  Michael and I discuss China's motivation to launch one of the world's first CBDCs, and how it will work alongside WeChat Pay and Alipay. We also chat about what the transition to digital currency will be like for businesses, and finally, how China's use of digital currency could be the beginning of a global trend in favor of the "digitization of value."

This episode we discussed China's efforts to grow its green financing sector with Dafei Huang, executive director and carbon assets specialist at the China International Capital Corporation. Dafei is an expert in green financing and renewable energy project development, and offered her insights into how China is incentivizing both the public and private sector to invest in green projects.  We also discussed the launch of China's carbon emissions market this past July, and how the market will help China to reach its ambitious carbon neutrality goals. Finally, Dafei talks about what she believes are the next steps China should take to build a cross-industry green economy. 

This episode, we talked with Jim McGregor, long-time China expert and Chairman, Greater China of APCO Worldwide, about the state of US-China commercial ties. Jim offers his take on why companies need to be "clear-eyed" about their longevity in the China market and China's ambitions to strengthen its own technological abilities. We also dig into what Jim says is motivating the regulatory crackdowns in China right now, and how investors should respond. He discusses how US-China discourse has changed in recent years and the ongoing "global competition of systems" between the two countries.  Finally, we talk about the "people-to-people" decoupling spurred by the pandemic, and why it's a loss for the US-China relationship. 

This week we have a review of the US-China relationship following Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman's meeting in Tianjin. We talk with former long-time diplomat and China expert Susan Thornton about how the US and China should each adjust their policy approach in order to get out of the current standstill in bilateral dialogue. Susan currently serves as a senior fellow and research scholar at the Paul Tsai China Center and as a nonresident senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.  Susan offers her analysis of the major themes guiding President Biden's China strategy and what a possible meeting between the two country's leaders could look like. She also gives her take on whether the US is likely to join a trans-Pacific trade agreement and finally, how the US needs to ready itself for the current shift in the international system as China rises as a leading power. 

This episode we chatted with Echo Gong, head of Greater China Advisory at Coresight Research, to discuss China's consumer retail trends. We talk about the latest in both online and offline retail trends, including how brands are now trying to bridge the gap between the two platforms to create more personalized experiences for customers.  Echo also offers her take on emerging trends in the China market, including the growth of the "self-care" sector, and which Chinese trends are now making their way into Western markets, such as livestreaming. Finally, Echo gives some practical advice about how companies should prepare for the Double 11 shopping festival and what companies need to do to educate consumers about newer sectors like sustainability and cruelty-free products. 

This episode we're exploring China's electric vehicle sector and the many manufacturers vying for a piece of the increasingly crowded market. We're joined by Nick Lai, head of Asia Auto Research at JP Morgan, to discuss the opportunities and challenges facing foreign EV producers in China, as well as the intersection between electric vehicles and smart cars in the future of auto manufacturing. We also chat about China's charging infrastructure and EV battery market, including why foreign battery manufacturers are unlikely to compete in the China market. Finally, Nick offers his take on whether the majority of China's new car sales will be EVs by 2030. 

This week we're focusing on a challenge foreign companies in China have long faced: how to deal with the often complex relationship between the China team and global headquarters. We explore this issue with Pierre Cohade, a long-time China executive with experience as president of Goodyear in China and who now serves on the boards of multiple MNCs.  Pierre walks us through some of the classic challenges teams in China face, including getting headquarters executives to understand the speed and ingenuity of the China market, and how teams can work through these issues in constructive ways. He also offers his take on how the pandemic has exacerbated some challenges in this relationship, and how China teams have been called on to support global performance in the past several months. 

This week, we explored the latest trends in Shanghai's retail and commercial real estate market with Hoichi Yeung and Kelly Cheng from property advising firm Savills. Hoichi works on Savills' commercial team, while Kelly focuses on cross-border retail. We discussed changing demand in Shanghai's typical commercial districts like Lujiazui as more development is built in areas such as the North Bund, and the enduring popularity of the Former French Concession. We also chat about what's driving a change in the city's master planning for new developments to allow for more green space and how national policies like the dual circulation policy could have effects on China's property market. 

This week, we looked at how to forge brand partnerships and licensing deals in the China market with Gary Chan and Elaine Chiu from brand management agency CAA-GBG, a joint venture between Creative Artists Agency and Global Brands Group. Gary is the vice president of brand management at CAA-GBG China, and Elaine is the senior vice president and head of CAA-GBG China.  Gary and Elaine offer practical guidance for brands looking to enter into licensing deals and partnerships in China and dispel common misconceptions about the risks and costs involved. They also offer detailed examples of successful brand partnerships in China as well as advice on how brands can protect their intellectual property. 

This episode, I partnered with the Carnegie-Tsinghua Center's "China in the World" podcast for a joint episode focused on President Biden's China strategy after his first 100 days in office. The "China in the World" podcast is hosted by Paul Haenle and examines China's foreign policy and shifting engagement with the world. Paul holds the Maurice R. Greenberg Director's Chair at Tsinghua University's Carnegie-Tsinghua Center, and previously served as director for China, Taiwan and Mongolia Affairs on the National Security Council staffs in the Bush and Obama administrations.  Paul and I talked on April 21, and he offered his analysis of Biden's China strategy thus far, including what the makeup of the president's China team signals about his strategy and how he's pursuing a multilateral, strategically competitive approach to dealing with China. Paul also offered his take on how he believes Biden will use strategic tools like tariffs and the entity list, and how he thinks Biden's China strategy could unfold in the months and years to come. 

This episode, I discussed recent changes in China's digital healthcare industry and policies with Carrie Xiao, a Life Sciences and Healthcare Partner at Deloitte China. Carrie advises clients on digitization trends in the healthcare industry, and how companies can take advantage of new market opportunities.  Carrie gives a detailed overview of the latest digital healthcare trends, many of which have been accelerated due to the pandemic, including the rise of online consultations and increases in internet hospital licensing. We also discuss updates in industry policies, particularly around patient data privacy, and key market opportunities for foreign healthcare firms in China, such as in senior care digital healthcare and AI-powered healthcare. 

This week AmCham Shanghai's Director of Communications Ian Driscoll served as guest host to interview Peter Alexander, founder of asset management consulting firm Z-Ben Advisors. Peter is one of Shanghai's leading voices on investment management, offering strategic advice to many of the world's largest financial services companies. Peter brought his more than 25 years of experience to the podcast to discuss some of the latest innovations and issues in the asset management industry. He and Ian discuss topics including the use of mobile as a platform for new products, how foreign companies have navigated an increasingly competitive market, and why global firms need to have a more nuanced "on the ground" view of the China market.  

This episode, I spoke with Tom Miller, senior Asia analyst and senior editor at global investment research firm Gavekal. Tom is one of the foremost experts on China's Belt and Road Initiative, and we chatted about the recent evolution of the foreign policy strategy, and what he views as the misguided critique that the BRI is a form of debt trap diplomacy. Tom has also written two books on China: China’s Urban Billion: The Story Behind the Biggest Migration in Human History and China’s Asian Dream: Empire Building Along the New Silk Road.  Amid the economic downturn caused by the pandemic, Tom shares his insights into some of the recent dips in BRI funding, and the shift in some funding towards more renewable power projects. Finally, he weighs in on whether the BRI can yet be called a success or a failure. 

This episode I spoke with Dan Wang, chief economist at Hang Seng Bank (China). Dan was previously an analyst at the Economist Intelligence Unit, and holds a Ph.D. in economics from the University of Washington. She is regularly quoted in publications including the Wall Street Journal, the China Economic Review, and the Financial Times.  Dan and I discuss China's economic forecast for the year ahead, and Dan offers her perspective on why she is not as optimistic as many about China's growth forecast. Dan digs into her concerns surrounding China's housing and job markets, and why a lack of consumer demand is a key factor in the country's slowing growth. Finally, Dan and I talk about what should be done to mitigate these concerns and ensure China's continued economic growth. 

This episode I spoke with Dr. Jing Wang, an Assistant Professor of Interactive Media Business at NYU Shanghai, where her recent research has focused on the policy environment surrounding China's fintech platforms, and how these platforms impact corporate-government relations.  We discuss China's evolving fintech policies, and how the sector has become more heavily regulated in recent years. Jing also talks about the ways in which the state is treating the financial arms of tech giants like Alibaba and Tencent more like traditional banks, and what the wider implications of these policy shifts could be. Finally, we discuss the future of fintech policy, and how some of China's fintech innovations could be brought to the US. 

This week I spoke with David Yeung, co-founder and CEO of sustainability group Green Monday, maker of popular plant-based protein product OmniPork. David launched Green Monday in Hong Kong in 2012, and since then it's grown to include OmniFood products as well as the plant-based concept store Green Common, which launched its first location in Shanghai last month.  David and I chat about the process of expanding the plant-based brand into mainland China, and what it's been like to introduce alternative proteins to a heavily meat-eating country. We also talk about how the market has changed recently as more Western brands move in, and where he believes the market is headed.   

This episode we have a review of China's 2020 economic performance and a forecast for 2021 with Dr. Penelope Prime, founding director of the China Research Center at the Georgia Institute of Technology. Dr. Prime has 30 years of experience studying China's economy, with a focus on topics including foreign investment and trade, industrial progress and provincial development.  We discuss China's economic recovery from the pandemic and return to economic growth this year, and how the state government may handle a slowing economy next year. Dr. Prime also offers her analysis of the state of China's economic reform and what's to come from policies like the deleveraging campaign and dual circulation strategy. 

This episode I talked with Li Zhang, president of independent media site RADII. Li is also the 2020 AmCham Shanghai Future Leader Award winner, recognized for her work to grow RADII's reach and promote authentic storytelling in China. RADII works to share stories that often go overlooked in China, including on topics such as music, fashion, mental health or LGBT issues.  Li and I discuss the evolving nature of storytelling in China, and how she's working to forge a stronger bridge of communication between the US and China. Now headed into its fourth year, we talk about how RADII has grown and worked to foster important conversations among its audiences, and where she wants to see RADII go next. 

This week, I spoke with Kacie Miura, Assistant Professor in Political Science and International Relations at the University of San Diego, where her research focuses on the link between international and domestic politics, with a focus on China. We discuss how China and the Biden administration are preparing to work with one another, how Biden may publicly frame the US-China relationship, where trade issues such as tariffs and the trade deal are headed, and how Biden's incoming China team could steer the bilateral relationship.

I spoke with conservation photographer and writer Kyle Obermann about the evolution of China's corporate environmental CSR, as well as the recent establishment of China's national park system. Kyle has photographed and reported from some of China's most fragile nature preserves, some of which are now part of the 10 pilot parks in the national park system. We discuss the park system and how it compares to Western national parks; we also chat about how more companies are getting involved in environmental CSR work in China.  To view Kyle's photos and latest work, you can find him on Instagram at @kyleobermann.

I spoke with Agatha Kratz, Associate Director at research firm Rhodium Group, where she leads research on EU-China relations. We discuss the state of EU-US relations when it comes to China, and how the two countries can more closely come together on a China strategy. While the US and EU have diverged in their approaches in recent years, Agatha outlines several potential areas for greater collaboration, including on climate change, public health, and trade. 

I talked with Yide Qiao, Vice Chairman & Secretary General at the  Shanghai Development Research Foundation, about how the US election could impact US-China relations. We chatted late last month about the ways that a Biden administration versus the Trump administration could affect the bilateral relationship, particularly on issues such as the use of tariffs and the Entity List. Yide also offered his thoughts on recent domestic economy issues in China, including the introduction of the dual circulation system and the upcoming Five Year Plan. 

We talked with AmCham Shanghai Director of Communications Ian Driscoll and China Management Consulting Leader Mark Gilbraith about AmCham Shanghai’s 2020 China Business Report. The report is based on the results of the Chamber’s 2020 China Business Survey, one of the longest-running surveys of US business in China. Mark, Ian and I discuss the results of the survey, including how companies are recovering from the economic blow of COVID-19 and their revenue projections for the rest of the year. We also dig into companies' investment plans in China and how they view the state of US-China tensions. 

This week we're discussing the recovery of China's travel industry with Albert Ng, co-founder and executive director of the travel company WildChina. We dig into how tourism companies are adapting to the currently solely domestic travel market in China, and what forms of travel consumers are looking for these days. We also discuss the new health and safety standards being used in the industry. Finally, Albert offers his take on what the future of China's tourism industry could look like, including when he thinks inbound foreign tourism will rebound. 

This week I talked with Marshall Strabala, chief architect of the Shanghai Tower and one of the world's leading designers of supertall skyscrapers. We discussed Marshall's experience designing the Shanghai Tower and which aspects of the building he was most proud to bring to life, as well as his thoughts on Shanghai's fast-changing architectural landscape and his approach to sustainable design. 

This week I’m chatting with longtime China trade expert Lee Sands. Lee served as the US chief trade negotiator with China and Japan from 1991 to 1997 and was one of the lead negotiators on China’s entry into the World Trade Organization. Lee is also spearheading AmCham Shanghai's Hangzhou Center, where he’s working to help the center reach more businesses. Lee and I chat about his time working in trade negotiations, what his experience taught him about the unique aspects of Chinese negotiators, and his outlook on future trade talks. We also talk about the Hangzhou Center and why more US companies should be looking at opportunities in Hangzhou. 

This week we're talking with Jennifer Turner, director of the Wilson Center’s China Environment Forum, where she publishes research and creates exchanges focused on a variety of China’s energy and environmental challenges. She also serves as editor of the center's journal, the China Environment Series. Talking with us from Washington D.C., Jennifer spoke about the evolution of China’s climate change and environmental policies and how its “war on pollution” and climate change initiatives could be impacted by the economic downturn of the COVID-19 pandemic. We also discuss other environmental issues facing China, including deforestation and the environmental impacts of the Belt and Road Initiative.  

This week we're talking with Dr. Yu Jie, senior research fellow on China in the Asia-Pacific Programme at the London-based think tank Chatham House, where her work focuses on China’s foreign policy and economic diplomacy. Yu Jie and I discuss China's economic recovery since its worst days of the COVID-19 pandemic and how the government is strategizing for continued economic growth. We also discuss what economic policies may now change as the country's economic priorities shift, including the Belt and Road Initiative and the next Five Year Plan. 

We’re talking with Denis Simon, Executive Vice Chancellor at US-Sino joint university Duke Kunshan University. We discuss how DKU handled China's sudden lockdown in February and the school's switch to remote learning. We also chat about how DKU is preparing for the fall semester while China's borders remain closed, stopping many students and faculty from returning to campus, and what the outlook for US-Sino joint universities looks like during an uncertain time. 

This week we answered commonly asked questions about China's employment regulations with JunHe counsel Jeffrey Wilson. Jeffrey has a decade of experience at JunHe LLP, and specializes in China's employment and sports law. In our first episode co-hosted with the China Business Law Podcast, we spoke with Jeffrey about some of the key employment law issues that have arisen for foreigners in China during the COVID-19 pandemic, including if a company can force you to be tested or quarantined and if a company can fire you if you're stuck outside the country.  Thanks to the China Business Law Podcast for co-hosting this episode with us. The China Business Law Podcast is hosted by Shanghai-based lawyer Art Dicker, and discusses how business law is applied on the ground in China. Art brings 13 years of experience working in China to the show, and interviews some of the country's top experts on how to navigate the often complicated world of business law in China. 

This week I spoke with Elizabeth Economy, director for Asia studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. Elizabeth is one of the leading experts on China's foreign and domestic policy, and offered her take on Xi Jinping and Donald Trump's response strategies to the coronavirus pandemic. She discussed why she's been disappointed by their roles as global leaders and how both leaders can realistically improve their international reputations. 

This week we're talking with Carly Ramsey, director at global risk consulting firm Control Risks. Carly leads the Shanghai office's political and regulatory risk consulting for Greater China and North Asia. Carly and I discuss the current landscape for data privacy regulations in China, and how multinationals can ensure they're compliant with local regulations. We also talk about how data is being utilized amid the Covid-19 pandemic, focusing on the use of patient data and data used to track individuals. 

This week we're talking with Michelle Garnaut, owner of longtime Shanghai staple, M on the Bund. One of the city's most well-known restauranteurs, Michelle spoke with us from Hong Kong about how she's adapted M on the Bund for business amid the COVID-19 pandemic, including everything from cutting the restaurant's capacity in half to dropping her prices. We touch on how the pandemic has impacted the restaurant industry as a whole, and how long she thinks it will take for restaurants to fully recover from both the health and economic crises. 

This episode we spoke with Han Lin, Senior Vice President and Deputy Manager of Wells Fargo Shanghai, about how multinational corporations in China are weathering the financial storm of the coronavirus. We discussed the strategies MNCs and their clients are using to mitigate their financial damage during the pandemic, the forms of support offered by the Chinese government and banks, and what the financial landscape for both foreign and domestic MNCs in China may look like in the months and years ahead.  

This episode we're speaking with Ken Jarrett, senior advisor at the Albright Stonebridge Group and a former AmCham Shanghai president. We discuss the impact of the coronavirus on U.S.-China relations, including how it's affected each country's global reputation, and what the lasting damage from the pandemic could be on the bilateral relationship. 

This episode, I spoke with Mark Harrison, Deals Advisory Partner at KPMG China. Mark specializes in advising on investments in China, including due diligence and joint ventures. Mark and I recorded our conversation before the coronavirus pandemic, and while it’s clear that much in China and the world has changed in the weeks since Mark and I first spoke, his perspective still rings true on how multinationals in China can handle financial upheaval in a fast-changing environment. 

This week I'm talking with two leaders from international learning group Education First about the effect of the coronavirus on China's education industry. Jean Liu, chief corporate affairs officer at EF, joined by phone from Shanghai, and president of adult English training Sam Cheung joined by phone from Hong Kong. The two discussed how EF made the sudden pivot to entirely online learning as China entered a lockdown, their perspective on how the industry as a whole is coping and what the lasting changes on teaching could be once schools are back in session. 

In our first episode recorded since the outbreak of the coronavirus pandemic, I speak with AmCham Shanghai president Ker Gibbs about how the Chamber has handled the rapidly changing situation over the past several weeks. We also discuss how our many member companies have been faring during the pandemic, and how both the Chamber and its members are strategizing for success in the weeks and months to come. 

In our first episode since the extended Chinese New Year, I'm talking with Jeff Lehman, Vice Chancellor of NYU Shanghai. Jeff has served as Vice Chancellor since the school's founding in 2012, and has previously served as founding dean of the Peking University School of Transnational Law, dean of the University of Michigan Law School and the eleventh president of Cornell University. Jeff and I discuss NYU Shanghai's expansion and evolution over the past eight years, the unique nature of Sino-foreign universities, and the state of China's higher education and its relations with the U.S. and others. 

This week we have our second Washington, D.C. episode, this time at the Center for Strategic and International Studies with Bonnie Glaser. Bonnie is a senior adviser for Asia at CSIS and the director of the China Power Project, where her work focuses on issues related to Chinese foreign and security policy. I sat down with Bonnie at the end of 2019 to discuss the current state of U.S.-China military relations, including rising tensions in the South China Sea, the U.S.’ "strategic ambiguity" approach to Taiwan, and what the U.S. finds most concerning about the crossover between China's growing technological and militaristic capabilities. 

This week I'm talking with Andrew Polk, an economist and co-founder of Trivium China, a Beijing-based economic research and business advisory firm. We chatted during the final days of 2019, and Andrew offered his take on why China's economy slowed this past year. We also dug into how successful he believes the state's financial policies, including the financial de-risking campaign, have been and why he's concerned about the country's economic outlook in 2020.  

This week I am in Washington, D.C. at the American Enterprise Institute, talking with Derek Scissors. Derek is a resident scholar at AEI, as well as the chief economist of the China Beige Book. We discuss the recently announced U.S.-China trade deal and what he believes is next for the two countries' relationship. We also talk about the upcoming U.S. presidential election and how a change in administration could affect the U.S.-China relationship as well. 

We're joined today by two guests: AmCham Shanghai's Education Committee Chair John Van Fleet is on as our guest host, talking with retired Boston Consulting Group management consultant Bob Ching. A Shanghai native, Bob worked as a consultant in Asia for nearly 30 years, including establishing the China office for Boston Consulting Group in 1985. John and Bob chat about the many changes Bob has seen in China's business environment in the last several decades, and what he envisions for China's business future. 

Martin Papp is the founder and CEO of Papp’s Tea, making it his mission to bring a new twist to China’s tea market. The Colorado native, who happily calls himself the “tea guy,” founded his Beijing-based contemporary tea brand in 2014 and now supplies tea to more than 350 locations in China, including at Shanghai spots like Wagas, Blue Frog and Element Fresh. In this episode, Martin and I discuss how he’s succeeded in China’s rapidly growing contemporary tea market and the new ideas he’s brought to the industry. We also chat about Martin’s view on establishing a food and beverage company outside the startup world, and what he’s planning next for Papp’s Tea.