Podcasts about belief agency

Bio  Brian McDonald, an award-winning author, filmmaker, graphic novelist, and podcaster, is a sought-after instructor and consultant. He has taught his story seminar and consulted for various companies, including Pixar, Microsoft, and Cirque du Soleil.  Interview Highlights 01:30 The Story Spine 04:00 Proposal, argument, conclusion 07:40 Video games – noodles are not cake 11:30 Armature 16:25 Stories in speeches 21:25 Finding your armature 23:00 Tools and weapons go together 25:30 The first act 27:00 Angels 28:00 Brian's memoir 28:45 Paying attention   Connect  ·       Brian McDonald (writeinvisibleink.com) ·       @BeeMacDee1950 on X ·       @beemacdee on Instagram ·       Brian McDonald on LinkedIn   Books and references  ·       Land of the Dead: Lessons from the Underworld on Storytelling and Living, Brian McDonald ·       Invisible Ink: Building Stories from the Inside Out, Brian McDonald ·       The Golden Theme: How to Make Your Writing Appeal to the Highest Common Denominator, Brian McDonald ·       Old Souls, Brian McDonald ·       Ink Spots: Collected Writings on Story Structure, Filmmaking and Craftmanship, Brian McDonald ·       Brian's podcast 'You are a Storyteller'  Episode Transcript Ula Ojiaku Hello and welcome to the Agile Innovation Leaders podcast. I'm Ula Ojiaku. On this podcast I speak with world-class leaders and doers about themselves and a variety of topics spanning Agile, Lean Innovation, Business, Leadership and much more – with actionable takeaways for you the listener. Welcome back to the Agile Innovation Leaders podcast, this is Part 2 of my conversation with Brian McDonald. In Part 1 we discussed defining a story, why we tell stories, among other things, and in this second part, Brian shares more of his insights around the storytelling formula, Brian's upcoming memoir, and building a story's armature. It's been such an honour to speak with Brian and I hope you find Part 2 of our conversation as insightful as I have. Everyone is a storyteller, everyone has a story to tell, and we knowing how to structure it is key to making it impactful and helping people to get information that heals, that helps them survive, that helps them navigate the conflicts of this world. So, you, in your book, Invisible Ink, you gave us a storytelling formula, do you mind sharing that with us? Brian McDonald So the story spine are seven steps that you need to create a story. So they use it at Pixar, I've worked with them quite a bit so we speak similar language, but they use this too, and I think we basically learned it from the same source. So, they are once upon a time, and every day, until one day, and because of this, and because of this, until finally, and ever since that day. So they are once upon a time, and every day, until one day, and because of this, and because of this, until finally, and ever since that day. And you set up the status quo, this is what happened, this is who this person is, this is what they want, whatever it is, and then something changes. Now you're into the ‘until one day', and the second act, now that would be the first act, the second act would be the body of the story. It's really what people say the story is about, so that's the longest part. That's why it's sort of split in two in a way because of this and because of this. There are some people who will add more because of this, but I don't, and some people don't like that I'm so rigid about it, but what I find is that the hardest thing I teach people is how to simplify. That's the hardest thing. So, adding more details is easy, simplifying is hard, right, and so that's why I stick with the seven and the because of this and because of this. And then, until finally, now you're into the third act, and ever since that day, because the third act is all about the conclusion or the resolution, but the conclusion, but the way I like to think about the three acts is this, and I had been thinking about it this way, and this is something that I don't know where Hitchcock got it, but Alfred Hitchcock talked about it, but I've never heard it anywhere else. So it's proposal, argument, conclusion. That's the way stories work, and those are the three acts. Proposal, argument, conclusion. Now, it's the way people talk. That's why it works. So the proposal is, let's say, I say Saturday I went to the best party I've ever been to in my life. That's my proposal. Everybody knows what comes next. My proof, this happened, that happened, this star was there, this blah blah blah, whatever it is, whatever my argument is, that this is the best party in the world, right? And then the conclusion, often stories are circular, so you'll come back around to the beginning again. So, that's the best party I've ever been to, then I talk about it, and then I say, oh, what a great party, oh, that was the best party I've ever been to, whatever it is, it's the way we speak, that's why it works in stories, because it's natural. It's the way a legal argument is constructed. Your honour, my client is innocent. Then the trial, which is all proof, and then the conclusion as you can see, my client is innocent, that's the conclusion of that argument, but the resolution is, do they go to jail or not? And that may or may not matter to your story, depending on the story you're telling. So therapists say, well, we tell ourselves the story that I'm not good enough, we tell ourselves the story that I'm not attractive enough or whatever it is, and that's not a story, that's a conclusion that you have derived from stories, it's not a story, that's a conclusion. The conclusion is I'm not worthy, I'm not smart, whatever it is, but there are stories that made you think that or feel that, that's where the stories are, and so the problem is if you have different definitions for stories, I found this when I'm collaborating, if I'm working for a studio or a video game company or something, if we have a different definition for story, then we are miscommunicating from the very beginning of the conversation.  So they maybe will say, well, we should do this, and I say, well, that doesn't fit the story, well, I think it does, oh, well, we're not talking about the same thing. So the thing is, people can take my definition or leave it, that doesn't matter to me, but they ought to have a definition, and it ought to get results consistently, and then you can make sure everybody's on the same page. Ula Ojiaku What I'm hearing you say is it's important to take time to define the terms being used because that makes things easier when you're collaborating with people. So how do you then approach it? Brian McDonald It depends. Sometimes I come in and my job is to lecture, and that is to give them that shared definition and understanding of story. So sometimes that's my job. If I come in on a specific project to help on a specific project, that's usually because either they've heard me lecture before, or they've read my books and we already have a shared definition. So that's usually how it works, most of the time. Ula Ojiaku What would you advise when you're getting into a new collaboration with people, would you say, take the time to define the terms and what exactly generally would you say? Brian McDonald Yeah, if we're talking specifically about story, I think I would give them the definition. I would probably let them struggle with the definition of story first, because I think that's an important part of the process, because people have to know they were given something, because it sounds obvious when you say it. So we will fool ourselves and think, oh, I knew that, so the struggle is really important, so I would let them struggle, make sure they understood that they got something, oh, now I have a definition, and sometimes just having a definition elevates what you're able to do. Just having the definition. So, then I would break down story, I would break down armature, which I haven't done yet I don't believe in the concept of interactive stories, I think that's a misnomer, because once you interact with the story, it becomes a game. I don't think they can occupy the same space. Now, the word story comes from the word history, where it comes from, comes from the word history. A story has happened. So for instance, if you and I were somewhere and we had some crazy adventure, as it's happening, it is not a story. It's only a story when we're done and we tell people about it. A video game is happening in the moment, the same way as any other experience. It's an experience, but it's not a story till it's done, and you're telling people that, and so I just don't think they occupy the same space. Now they have a lot of the same ingredients, and that's what fools people. So for instance, it's sort of like, I would say you can use eggs and flour to make noodles or cake, but noodles are not cake, and so because you can have characters and settings and scenes and a lot of the same ingredients as a story, I think people think they're the same thing, but they are not, and that's what's interesting to me is that video game people desperately want their thing to be story, and I don't know why. It's like, no, you have your own thing. They have scenarios. In the old silent movie days, they didn't have screenplays, they didn't write screenplays. So, Buster Keaton would say, get me a fire truck and I'll make a movie, and he would then make it up, Chaplin did the same thing, he would make it up, they didn't write them down. Sometimes Chaplin would shoot and then say, okay, everybody has a week off while I figure out what happens next. He didn't know, so the reason they started writing screenplays, one of them was to budget. Well, what do you want? I'm going to need a truck, I'm going to need this, I'm going to need that. Okay. So they knew how much it was going to cost to make it, that's one of the reasons they started doing it. So you'll see on old silent movies scenario by, so it would be like, what if a guy robs a bank and this happens so that's the scenario. Video games have a scenario, and anything can happen in that scenario because the player has some agency, and that's like being in real life. Being in real life is not a story, it's just not, it's a story later, but I think that when we are experiencing a story, it feels like the present, and so I think it's confusing, and people will argue with me and they'll say, but have you played this video game or that video game or this one? And I'm like, you're not actually arguing. There's a little bit of story, and that stops and then there's gameplay, they don't occupy the same space, they're just close to each other. You have to switch from one to the other, I just don't believe they can occupy the same space, and I think technology has fooled us to thinking that that's the case, because you don't need technology. If there is such a thing as interactive stories, you could do that without technology. Choose your own adventure books were that, so you don't need it. Everybody remembers them, but how many people ever tell the story of a choose your own adventure book? You ever heard anybody say that? No one does, because it wasn't really a story, it was a game. There's nothing wrong with it being a game, I think that's totally fine, but I don't study games, I work with game people. There are people that study games and that's their whole thing. I get that, and there's game theory, and there's a bunch of stuff I don't know, but they seldom study story, and I do know that. So when they say, well, this game has a story, I'm telling you, it doesn't, because that's my field of study. And then an armature. So, I used to work in creature shops in Los Angeles. So I moved to LA in the mid 80s, and my roommate was a special effects makeup artist. And so my first jobs in LA were working in creature shops because he could get me these jobs, and this is before CGI and computers and stuff, so things had to be built. My roommate was working on the movie Predator when I moved there, I remember, it was called Hunter, I still have the script, it was called Hunter at the time, and so they were doing some reshoots. They had gone on location and shot the movie without having a design for the creature. So they came back and they were doing some shoots in studio and stuff with this creature, I remember that vividly. Anyway, but they had to build these things, and so I would work on these movies, I worked on a zombie movie and a movie called Night of the Creeps and all, but you had to make things, and I would watch these sculptors, amazing sculptors, sculpt these little mock cats of whatever the creature was, and they were, I'd never seen in real life, somebody really able to sculpt something that was so amazing, and I was 21 years old, it was amazing to see, and they would make though this wireframe skeleton before they sculpted the clay, and I asked why, I didn't know, and they said, well, we have to make a skeleton, an armature. In fact, the wire is called armature wire. We have to make this armature because clay can't support its own weight, and so after a little while, could be a day or two days or sometimes a few hours, it'll collapse upon itself. So you need to make this skeleton, and I thought, oh, that's really interesting. It's something I'd never thought about, and then when I thought about it in terms of story, I realised that a story has an armature. It holds everything up. Everything is built around this armature. It ends up being one of the most important parts, like with the clay, but it's not anything anybody notices, except when it is in there, it's the thing that makes it work, it's the thing that makes it stable, and the armature for a story is your point. What are you trying to say? What's the survival information you're trying to convey? So, some people would call it a theme, it's a mushy word, people don't quite know what it means. So I usually start with armature, then I use theme interchangeably, but I start with armature because it's a visual idea that people can sort of wrap their brain around, where theme is, I think, almost too intellectual. And the way I like to think of it is this, that a story doesn't have a theme. This is what you always, you hear this, stories have a theme, this story has to have a theme. Stories don't have a theme, stories are a theme, stories are a manifestation of the theme. If you are telling the story of King Midas and you're saying some things are more important than gold, then the story is a manifestation of the illustration of that theme. Ula Ojiaku So if a story is a manifestation of a theme and an armature is your point you're trying to make, so what is a theme then? Brian McDonald Well, theme and armature are the same. It's just that theme takes a long time for people to wrap their brains around, it's too intellectual. I think a lot of terms for storytelling and writing and all of that were made up by people who weren't practitioners, but observers, and so their words are often not very helpful. So it's like, well, theme's not a helpful word. I struggled with the idea of theme for a long time, even though I knew what a theme was, I was lucky because of the things that influenced me would always have a strong theme, and so I knew instinctually how to do it. It was a while before I understood what I was doing, and the word theme completely confused me because it was something I thought I had to put in my story, I had to fit it in there, but it's not that way. Ula Ojiaku So if I said a theme is the point you're trying to make, or a theme is the message you're trying to pass across would that be wrong? Brian McDonald You know, the interesting thing about having a point, is that when we talk, we have no problem with the concept, and in fact, when somebody's talking to you, and it's clear they don't have a point, you lose interest fast, you also don't know what to listen for. So one of the things that often comes up is people will talk about I think mood, for instance, is a trick of literature. So, because you can paint pretty pictures with words and you can do these things, I think that's a trick and has nothing to do with storytelling. It's almost a special thing, and so sometimes people will say, well, what about mood, because you're so into story, what about mood? I go, well, here's the thing, nobody talks in real life about mood. So if I say to you, hey Ula, I have something to tell you, a clear blue sky, seagulls in the distance, the sun beating down on me, salt air coming off the ocean. Okay, I'll see you later. You'd be like, I didn't tell you anything, but if I just add one sentence, if I say my trip to Mexico was amazing, clear blue sky, now you know why you're listening. That changes everything. Armature does the same thing. If you know why you're telling the story, it will all fall together in a different way, and people know they're in good hands, they feel it, they won't know why, but they'll understand why they're listening. Ula Ojiaku People in other disciplines have to give presentations and already is an established case that storytelling helps with engaging people, and when you know the point you're trying to pass across, it's a great starting point to know what message you're trying to pass across to the audience. What advice would you give to leaders? What can they bear in mind to about weaving in stories so that it's engaging without losing the message? Brian McDonald I've helped people write speeches and I've had to give speeches on different things that were not necessarily story related. And in fact, when I was at the creative agency I was at, we would often be asked to help people write speeches, and all the writers would follow basically the rules that I laid down about how that should happen, and we could do it really quickly and the CEOs were always amazed at how quickly we could do it, but they usually have a story, they just don't recognise it. Most people don't recognise the stories that they have to tell because they take them for granted, and so often we would pull that out of them and say, that's your thing, but I once heard an interview, this is pre-pandemic. So pre-pandemic, there were a lot of people, who were against vaccines, even then, and I heard this doctor talking on the radio and the doctor said, because people were afraid, they were like, well, wait, if my kid gets the vaccines, gets immunised, this leads to autism, that's what they thought,  and the doctors were like, all the research from all around the world does not bear that out, that's not true. So, and they kept trying to provide data that showed that this wasn't true, and I remember listening to this going, they're not going to win with data because we're not wired for data. The reason those people believe what they believe is because they have a story. I knew somebody this happened to, I heard of a person this happened to. You can only win with another story, you're not going to win with data. So the thing is, you find a story, a human story about whatever you're talking about, because there is one, and when you find it, that's what people will latch on to. We're not wired for all that other stuff, we're not wired for charts and graphs, and that's not the way it works. We're wired for stories and we want to know, hey, how is what you're telling me going to help me, that's what we want to know, and so there is a story there, there always is, they just have to find it. How does this thing connect with me? Steve Jobs was good at this, and I've worked with tech companies making pieces for them, and if they have a product, they often want to give you the stats, like it does it's this, and it does this and it does this and it has this many whatever, but do you remember there was a commercial, at least here I don't know if it was everywhere, but there was a commercial for facetime, and when it first came out, there was a commercial for it and the commercial was just people on the computers, or on their phones, connecting with other people. So there was a guy who obviously was stationed somewhere, a military guy, and he sees his wife and their new baby over the thing, somebody seeing a graduation, I think is one of them, all these things that connected people. Now you got, I've got to have, that because you're giving me emotional information. I don't know anything about technology, so you're not going to impress me with technology, you're going to impress me with how is this going to impact my life for the better. So they told you those little stories, those little vignettes, and it was a powerful commercial. So an armature should be a sentence, so it should be something you can prove or disprove through the story. It has to be a sentence. So a lot of times people go, well, revenge, that's my theme, that's my armature. It's like, it can't be. Revenge is sweet, can be. Revenge harms the avenger, could be. It can't be friendship, friendships are sometimes complicated, friendships are necessary, something like that. So companies can have armatures, they're often looking for their armature. What's interesting is that Nike's armature is if you have a body, you're an athlete, and when you have a strong armature, it tells you what to do. So, if you have a body, you're an athlete, which they sort of contextualised as ‘just do it', but the armature is, so they did an ad with an overweight kid jogging. It's just one shot of him jogging and having a very hard time doing it, but doing it, and that's better than having a star. A lot of times clients used to come to us with the agency and go, we got this star and this song. It's like, yeah, but what are you saying, because it won't matter. That was a very powerful ad, that kid just jogging and just doing it, and you were like, it was more impressive than the most impressive athlete, you had empathy for him, you had admiration. It was amazing, it's an amazing ad, and it's simple, it doesn't cost a lot of money. It doesn't have any special effects. It doesn't have any big stars. What was interesting is that Nike changed ‘just do it' for a while to ‘be like Mike', to be like Michael Jordan, be like Mike. Well, guess what? You can't be like Mike. If you have a body, you're an athlete. I can do that, but I can't be like Mike, so they went back. They had to go back, that went away. If you have a strong armature, it's amazing, what it does is sticking to your armature has a way of making your stuff resonate and be honest in a very specific way and feel polished, and so if somebody is giving a talk and they know their armature. I gave a talk, at the EG conference. I was flattered to be asked because James Cameron had spoken there, Quincy Jones had spoken there, they asked me to be there and they said, well, what do you want to talk about, and I said, well I'm a story person, I want to talk about story. They seemed bored by the whole idea of me talking about story and they said, well, what are you working on? Well, I had just started working on a memoir that's not out yet, but I had just started working on this memoir, and they go, tell us about that, and it was a memoir about my brother's murder, and they said, well we want you to tell us about that, what you're going to talk about in your memoir. So I thought, okay, I didn't want to talk about it really, but I didn't want to pass up this opportunity. It was a high profile talk, there were going to be high profile people in the audience, it was an honour to be asked to do it, so I did it. So when I prepare for a speech, or a lecture or anything, the first thing I do is I try to get into that venue as early as possible when there's no one there, and I walk on and off the stage, over and over again, because one of the things that throws you as a speaker sometimes is not knowing how to get on and off the stage. You might trip, so I just do it a bunch of times so I know how many steps. Then I sit on the stage, I just sit there, because I want it to become my living room, so I just sit there, it could be 20 minutes, just taking it all in. I ask them to turn the lights on the way the lights are going to be on during the talk, because sometimes it throws you when you're like, oh, I can't see anybody, or I can see the first two rows, I'm getting rid of all of those things. Then I go into the audience and I sit in different sections. What can these people see? What can these people see? What can these people see? I do all. So that's the way I prepare, and then I do all the tech stuff. Well, the EG conference didn't really let me do that. I got to go on stage for a couple of minutes, but I really didn't get to spend much time up there. I had my PowerPoint. So I had some slides and I had notes, and they said, okay, this is what time you're going up. I go, I've got to know if this is working, my slides and my notes and they didn't let me do it on stage, we did it backstage and I go, it's going to look like this. Fine, I get out there, the monitor on the stage is different, and I don't have my notes. I don't have my notes. I had seen people at this conference when something went wrong, they would stop their talk, they would go talk to a tech person. It took the air out of the room, it sucked the air out of them. So I was like, I'm not doing that, I'm up here without a net now, I'm just going to do this. Here's what saved me. I knew my proposal and I knew my conclusion, which were the same. All I had to do was prove that proposal. So as I'm up there, I had prepared some things, but I'm essentially making things up, that I know will do the job because I know the armature. Now this is not to brag, this is about how well the technique works. I got an immediate standing ovation. Some of those people, they know what they're looking at, some of those people are pretty big deal people, and so they came up, I'm friends with some of them now, like we've got to hang out, I've got to pick your brain, and I was sort of the celebrity of that thing, and there were people who went to the EG conference every year, and I heard from people that it was either the best speech they'd heard, or in the top five speeches they'd heard at that conference, and some serious people had spoken at that conference before. So, but that was just the technique, it's nothing special about me, I just knew the technique, and everybody can learn it, and when I've taught it to people like a guy I used to work with, Jesse Bryan at the Belief Agency, we helped the CEO write a speech, and he's a shy guy, but we found his armature and we said, this is your armature, this is what you have to do this about, and he did it, and we heard back from people who worked with him. It's the best speech he's ever given, he was comfortable, he knew what he was saying, he knew what he was doing up there and he believed what he was saying, because that's key. It's key to believe what you're saying. So it doesn't matter whether you're writing a story or whatever, it always helps. For instance, a lot of times people will write an email to somebody and in the email, there's like 10 or 15 things to pay attention to, and then when that happens, a lot of things don't get addressed. So if your armature is your subject, and everything is dealing with that, and then if you have more to say, that's another email. This one's just about this, now, all of a sudden, I've told people that, and I know other people I've worked with who've told people that, and all of a sudden, people are responding to their emails differently, things are getting addressed that weren't getting addressed, because they started with their armature. Because there's too much to pay attention to. Is this for me? Is this for somebody else, especially if it's a group email, who's this for? Am I supposed to do this? But if it's one thing, hey, Brian, take care of this thing. Oh, okay.  One thing about point, which is interesting. So I've been teaching this a long time now and I don't usually get new questions, but one day somebody had a question I'd never heard before. So I'm talking about having point, and somebody says, what's a point? And I thought it was pretty self explanatory, but I try to honour the question, and so I answered and I talked about armature, talked about having a point, knowing what you want to say and all of that, and anyway, he got it, but afterwards, I went, what is a point? I have to actually know that. So I looked it up, a point, the definition of a point, one of the definitions is the tapered sharp end of a tool or a weapon, and I'm like, that's exactly what a point is in a story, because you can weaponise. As a matter of fact, I actually don't believe that you can make a tool without also making a weapon. I think that they always go together. When we harness fire, that's a tool, but it's also a weapon. A hammer is a tool that can also be a weapon. Writing is a tool that can also be a weapon. Storytelling is a tool that can also be a weapon. I don't think you can make one without the other. It's just what you decide to do with it. Ula Ojiaku It's like different sides of the same coin, really. Brian McDonald Yeah, the tapered sharp end of a tool or weapon, and that's what a point is. Ula Ojiaku So what led to your updating of the Invisible Ink? Could you tell us a bit about that, please? Brian McDonald Well, it took me six years to get the book published. I wrote it and it took forever to get published, it took a long time. And so, I learned more, and when the book was finally going to get published, I thought, well, I know more now than I did then, when I wrote this book. Do I amend the book? Or do I put it out the way it is? Well, I had been teaching, and that book was essentially what I had been teaching, and I knew it worked for people, and I knew it resonated with people, so I went, well, you know, this is fine. I'll just put this one out and then later I'll know enough new stuff that I can put that in the book, and so that's what I did. I started teaching things that weren't in the book, and there were enough of them that I thought, okay, this is enough new stuff that I can justify a new book, and also I changed some of the language a little bit, there was some gender stuff in Invisible Ink that, as the years went on, rubbed people the wrong way, and I understand that, and so I'm like, let me adjust that. It took me a while to figure out how to adjust it, but once I figured that out, because I wanted to be honest about the things I was observing, but the world moved on and I didn't want to be stuck. Now in another 10 or 20 years, there might be stuff in the book that people go, I can't believe you wrote that, but there's nothing I can do about that, but as long as I'm around to make changes, I'll make those changes. So that was a less of it than really I had more to say and I found ways of being more clear and over the years I've gotten questions, like people didn't know how to build a story using an armature, so I started teaching that more and so that's in the book, and also I talk about first acts more because I think the first act is so important and it's actually getting lost, particularly in Hollywood. I was told by an agent I had not to write a first act, because they want to get right to the action, but the first act in a story, there's a lot of work it's doing, and one of the things it does is it creates a connection between the audience and the protagonist. So the difference is this. If I say there was a terrible car wreck yesterday. Oh, that sounds terrible. Was anybody hurt? Yeah, your best friend was in a terrible car wreck. Ula Ojiaku That changes everything. Brian McDonald Everything. That's what the first act does. Oh, I know this person this is happening to. You eliminate that, you get all the spectacle and all that other stuff, but you don't care. That first act makes people care. So I focused on that a lot, and I talk about how to build a story from that armature, how that helps your first act, and how to build the rest of the story using that armature. So that's why I've changed the subtitle to Building Stories from the Inside Out, because that's more the focus of this book Land of the Dead is my favourite of my books right now, because most of what I teach, in some way or another, used to be taught, a lot of it was common knowledge up till about the 1920s. So all I've done is do a lot of studying and reading and all of that. The Land of the Dead has things in it that I haven't read other places, and I feel like it's my contribution, in a different way, to storytelling. I think I've added some vocabulary to storytelling, broadly speaking and there's one thing in particular in that book, angel characters, I talk about angels, not in a religious sense, but in a story sense and how they operate in stories, and I don't know if anybody's ever talked about it. They may talk about it somewhere, but they don't talk about anything I've read about story, and there's some other things too in The Land of the Dead I think I've added to the vocabulary, so I feel proud of that. I feel like I put my handprint on the cave wall with that book. We'll see, I don't know, people like what they like, I like that book, and The Golden Theme I liked too, but those two, I think those two for me, they're actually in a way, opposite books in a way, that one is about the underworld and the information and the lessons we get from the underworld, but they're both, I think, positive. Some of the reviews with Land of the Dead talk about how it's strangely positive, given what it's about, and I'm proud of that. There's just a lot of things, I'm very proud of that book, and the memoir, which will be out who knows when, it takes a long time, it's graphic, so it's being drawn and that takes a long time, so hopefully it'll be out in another year or so. Ula Ojiaku Looking forward to that. So where can the audience find you if they want to reach out to you? Brian McDonald Well, they can go to my website, writeinvisibleink.com They can do that. They can follow me on Instagram, which is @beemacdee Those are the places where people usually find me and they can write me from the website, and my classes are offered there. So I teach zoom classes. Ula Ojiaku Do you have any final words for the audience? Brian McDonald I would say, to pay attention to the stories around you, pay attention when people talk, if you learn how to do that, you will learn everything you want to know about storytelling, because it's in the natural world. So you'll learn when you're bored, why you're bored, when you're engaged, why you're engaged, and it's hard for people at first, but if they can learn, I say, observe stories in their natural habitat. So, the problem is when people are in a conversation, they're in a conversation and it's hard to observe and be in a conversation, but if you practice it, you can do it, and it's really interesting to hear somebody talk and they'll talk in three acts, they'll have a proposal, they'll have an argument, they'll have a conclusion and you'll hear it, and the reason I think that's important is because until you teach it to yourself, you will think, oh, what did Brian say, or I think Brian's wrong about this, or this is his take. When you observe it yourself, you're teaching it to yourself. You don't have to listen to me at all, teach it to yourself. It'll prove itself to you, and then that comes from a different place when you start using it. You're not following my rules and quotes, and so I think that's really important that people have ownership over it and that they know that it's theirs, and they're not painting by numbers. Ula Ojiaku Thank you, Brian. Pay attention to the stories around you. This has been an amazing conversation and my heart is full, and I want to say thank you so much for the generosity with which you've shared your wisdom, your experience, your knowledge. Thank you. Brian McDonald Thank you. Thanks for having me. Ula Ojiaku My pleasure. That's all we have for now. Thanks for listening. If you liked this show, do subscribe at www.agileinnovationleaders.com or your favourite podcast provider. Also share with friends and do leave a review on iTunes. This would help others find this show. I'd also love to hear from you, so please drop me an email at ula@agileinnovationleaders.com Take care and God bless!     

On this episode of How You Create, Ben and Joshua are joined by Brian McDonald and Jesse Bryan. In the words of Jesse, Brian is the best storyteller alive today. Aside from being Brian's biggest hype man, Jesse is Founder and CEO of Belief Agency. Brian and Jesse work together at Belief Agency, which is a full-service creative agency and story consultancy that believes the truth is enough. Things don't always have to be so arduous, and oftentimes people use big words and over-complicate things to come off as experts. These two live by Einstein's “If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, then you don't understand it yourself.” And with their deep understanding of storytelling, it all just makes sense. The four discuss armature, a concept that Brian learned from his time working alongside sculptors. They would start with a wire skeleton to support the weight of the clay. It holds everything together, everything is built upon it, and it's one of the most important elements of the sculpture, but it's not what people see or pay attention to. The four discuss how that concept applies to almost everything, including storytelling. They also get into what it means to survive - culturally, spiritually, emotionally, communally and more. This is not an episode you want to miss. Learn more by listening to this episode of How You Create, You Are a Storyteller with Brian McDonald and Jesse Bryan.

Jesse Bryan is the founder and CEO of Belief Agency, which helps brands craft stories based on the conviction that the truth is enough. In this episode, Jesse shares how Belief got started, the use of storytelling in history, the rise and fall of Mark Driscoll, what marketing and advertising get wrong, and how being vulnerable can add value to your brand.This episode of Make Something Cool is brought to you by Riverside, the best online recording solution in the world. Check out Riverside here at https://riverside.fm/lp.Sign up for Find Something Cool, a curated newsletter designed to keep you inspired to create: alexsugg.com/newsletter.If you enjoy the podcast, please Like and Subscribe! You can also leave a short review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It takes less than 60 seconds, and it makes a huge difference for the show!This episode was edited and produced by Josh Perez. If you're looking for help with your podcast, Josh is your guy. Connect with him at www.justjoshperez.com.Follow Alex:Twitter: https://twitter.com/alexsuggInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/alexsugg

Get new episodes sent directly to your inbox → www.alexsugg.com/podcastBrian McDonald is the chief storyteller at Belief Agency, as well as an award-winning screenwriter, author, director, teacher, producer, and consultant who has worked in film, television, and comic books for more than 30 years. He's helped clients like Pixar, Disney, HBO, and many more tell better stories.In this episode Brian talks about the secrets to telling compelling stories in your creative work.If you enjoy the podcast, please leave a short review on Apple Podcasts! It takes less than 60 seconds, and it makes a huge difference for the show! Leave a review here.This episode was edited and produced by Josh Perez. If you're looking for help with your podcast, Josh is your guy. Connect with him at www.justjoshperez.com.Follow Alex:Twitter: https://twitter.com/alexsuggInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/alexsugg/Newsletter: https://alexsugg.com/newsletter

An award-winning screenwriter, director, and author who has worked in film, television, and comic books for over 30 years. His book on story structure Invisible Ink has been translated into several languages and is required reading for interns at Pixar Animation Studios.  He is also the author of The Golden Theme, Ink Spots, and Old Souls. As a story consultant Brian has taught story construction and consulted for Disney Feature Animation, Cirque Du Soleil, Amazon, Ford Motor Company, Sony Interactive, Future of Storytelling, and Microsoft. McDonald is a partner and the Chief Storyteller at Belief Agency in Seattle, Washington where he hosts the podcast You Are a Storyteller.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

---Listen & Subscribe on Apple Podcastshttps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/creative-pep-talk/id929743897Get Episode Transcripts at creativepeptalk.com/episodes - - -SHOW NOTES- - -You Are a Storyteller, podcasthttps://www.imdb.com/title/tt0450163/Ray Harryhausen: Story of King Midas (1953)https://writeinvisibleink.com/episodes/Invisible Ink, Book by Brian McDonaldhttps://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Ink-Practical-Building-Resonate/dp/0998534471- - -SPONSORS- - -SPOONFLOWERShop, design and sell custom fabric, wallpaper and home decor on Spoonflower - if DIYing is your jam, SPOONFLOWER is THE destination for print-on-demand fabric, wallpaper and home decor products. Visit spoonflower.com and DIY all the live long day! Spoonflower.comSKILLSHAREThere's nothing better than getting better. Accomplishing growth is extremely satisfying, and online classes from Skillshare make it possible. Learn about illustration, design, photography, productivity, and marketing. With Skillshare's short classes, you can move your creative journey forward without putting life on hold. So explore your creativity at Skillshare.com/CreativePep where our listeners get a free trial of Premium Membership.STORYBLOCKSVideo is one of my most effective ways to stand out as a creator online these days - and with Storyblocks you can take your videos to the next level - with Affordable Subscriptions, Unlimited Downloads, and 1M+ Royalty Free Assets - you can level up your content at storyblocks.com/CreativePepTalk

On this week's episode of You Are A Storyteller, Brian McDonald and Jesse Bryan talk about what it means to be brave and how bravery can impact your stories. This program is produced in Seattle, WA by Belief Agency.

In this episode of “You Are a Storyteller,” Brian and Jesse discuss Brian’s book, “The Golden Theme,” and how all stories share one big message: that we are all the same. “You Are a Storyteller” is produced in Seattle by Belief Agency. “The Golden Theme,” by Brian McDonald: https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Theme-Writing-Highest-Denominator/dp/0998534412/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1586812033&sr=8-1

Today we are joined on the pod by my long time friend, Jesse Bryan. Jesse is very smart, well and widely read, a deeply thoughtful person, and not surprisingly one of my very favorite people to talk to. Jesse is the founder and executive creative director of Belief Agency, an award-winning advertising company based in Seattle. As you’ll hear, instead of lying to consumers, they do this really weird thing where they focus on helping their clients tell the truth. You’ll get an interesting look into some of the history of advertising and it’s relation to truth and falsehood, and what’s changed in the digital age. I basically just say “uh-huh” and “yeah” a bunch while Jesse drops wisdom, so sit back and enjoy as I did. Like what you hear? Get exclusive episodes and limited perks by supporting the show on Patreon. www.patreon.com/carrythefirepod FEATURED LINKS Belief Agency SHOW LINKS Carry the Fire Podcast Website Instagram Twitter Support on Patreon Produced by Andy Lara at www.andylikeswords.com

On this week's episode, Brian and Jesse discuss focus—specifically how it relates to each character in your story. This program is produced in Seattle, WA by Belief Agency

Jesse Bryan is the founding partner, CEO, and Chief Creative Officer at Belief Agency, a Seattle-based full-service creative agency. There, he has worked with some of the world's largest brands, including Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, and The Seattle Seahawks. Jesse is also the co-host and founder of “You Are a Storyteller,” an award-winning podcast that helps people understand the way stories work and how to tell true stories that resonate. Jesse’s work as a creative director and filmmaker has had one common thread: telling compelling stories that move people to action.   Follow Jesse here: https://beliefagency.com/ https://twitter.com/jessebryan?land=en   Jesse's Recommendations: Invisible Ink by Brian McDonald Making Movies by Sidney Lumet You Are A Storyteller Podcast/Vodcast   Nick's Recommendations: Seeing Christ in the Old Testament by Christopher JH Wright (Unity) Mockingbird (Goodness) In Defense of Sanity: The Best Essays of G.K. Chesterton Christianity and Liberalism by J. Gresham Machen (History)       

On this week's episode, Brian and Jesse discuss charged objects and how you can use them to make a deeper emotional connection with your audience. This program is produced in Seattle, WA by Belief Agency

Welcome to Carry the Fire. Our Guest Brian McDonald is an expert in the art of telling stories. He has taught screenwriting and worked as a consultant for such clients such as Disney and Cirque du Soleil and currently serves as “Chief Storyteller” at the Belief Agency where he also produces the podcast “You Are a Storyteller.” His book Invisible Ink: A Practical Guide to Building Stories That Resonate is required reading at Pixar Animation Studio. In this episode we discuss the necessity of wonder for artists, and the artist’s role in re awakening that wonder in others. We also explore what it means to tell the truth when writing a story, and even speculate a bit about what’s happened to George Lucas. FEATURED LINKS Write Invisible Ink You are a Story Teller Podcast Old Souls Book Invisible Ink Book SHOW LINKS Carry the Fire Podcast Website Instagram Twitter Produced by Andy Lara at www.andylikeswords.com

On this week’s episode, Brian and Jesse discuss feedback and dive into questions like, "How do you give good feedback?" and "How do you sift through feedback you've received?". This program is produced in Seattle, WA by Belief Agency.

As a storyteller, how should you be measuring and defining success? On this week's episode, Brian and Jesse dive into what it truly means to succeed. You Are A Storyteller is produced in Seattle, WA by Belief Agency.

Today we’ll hear from Belief Agency, a Seattle-based creative agency that specializes in full-stack marketing. They do everything, from core messaging to strategy to content creation and SEO. In this podcast, digital director Joel Cummings, creative director Rachelle Cummings, and marketing manager Dave Powell are sharing some best practices for various components of your online presence, from social media to email marketing to branding to website management.

In this week’s episode, we discuss how understanding the power of simplicity allows you to make creative decisions that better serve your story. Belief Agency founder and executive creative director Jesse Bryan and chief storyteller Brian McDonald discuss the importance of simplicity in storytelling. Belief Agency is a full-service marketing and production agency in Seattle, WA. We build brands with conviction. Show notes: Brian’s Invisible Ink blog about simplicity: http://invisibleinkblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/again-with-simplicity.html (3:32, 9:34) Opening scene of Oklahoma: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5APc0z49wg (26:49) Jaws written on piano keys: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/256775616226044463/ (33:54) Tyrus Wong quote about simplicity in painting and examples of his work: https://ohmy.disney.com/movies/2017/05/19/see-disney-legend-tyrus-wong-talk-about-his-work-on-bambi-in-this-exclusive-video-2/ (38:48, 39:50) New Neighbors by Norman Rockwell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA7A7lciQGo (1:02:41) The Jury by Norman Rockwell: http://images.art.com/images/products/regular/13214000/13214017.jpg (1:08:22)

We’ve said it before and we’ll say it again: Humans are natural-born storytellers. We tell stories instinctively; they’re the basis for conversation and communication. Everything we do as humans requires a story, and your core, you are a storyteller. We all are. In this episode of “You Are a Storyteller,” Belief Agency founder and executive creative director Jesse Brian and chief storyteller Brian McDonald share the armature of our series (you've probably already guessed it), and the ways in which storytelling can be a catalyst for change. Belief Agency is a full-service marketing and production agency in Seattle, WA. We build brands with conviction.

In this week’s episode of You Are a Storyteller, we take a break in our regularly scheduled programming to answer questions from our audience! We collected all manner of storytelling questions from our faithful followers on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. (Special thanks to all who participated!) In part one of this two-part series, Belief Agency’s Ian Ebright joins Brian McDonald to respond to your questions about writing. Together they cover how to work through your fear as a writer, how to do more showing than telling, and how to stay true to your armature. Stay tuned. In the coming weeks, Ian and Brian will answer your questions on directing!

In this episode of "You Are a Storyteller," Belief Agency founder and creative director, Jesse Bryan, and chief storyteller, Brian McDonald, cover the most essential component of any story: the armature. The armature is what holds everything up; it's the scaffolding so to speak. Not all stories have an armature, but all the best ones do—and we'll teach you how to spot one.

Creatives are Dangerous I'm a small city dude from Iowa and I need to get out of my bubble to find my people. I find my people by getting out of my comfort zone and heading to conferences across the United States. This past week, I flew solo to Creative Works Conference in Memphis, TN. I heard great things about the conference last year so I kept it on my radar. When they finally dropped the lineup, I literally bought my attendee ticket along with workshops within 10 minutes. In my personal opinion, this lineup was stacked. Josh Horton and Dan Price did an incredible job putting this together. I got to take workshops with lettering legends Ken Barber and Erik Marinovich for only $5o a piece! The speakers were some of the people I looked up to most including Ken, Erik, Andy J. Miller of the Creative Pep Talk Podcast, Ghostly Ferns, Rogie King & Justin Mezzell of Super Team Deluxe to name a few. Not to mention the vendor market flooded with goods from Strawcastle, Josh Emrich, Clark Orr, Mama's Sauce, French Paper, Oxford Pennant, etc. Did I mention outside of pizza that BBQ was my second favorite food because I smashed a ton of that too? As the cool kids of our country would say, this conference was lit. While I'm worn out from travel, I wanted to make sure I documented some of the biggest takeaways I got from the speakers. Here are my top 7 that I think will greatly benefit you as well. Let's get started. Get Off the Floor Leading off to bat was one of my biggest inspirations, Andy J. Miller of the Creative Pep Talk Podcast. Andy's talk was witty, funny and emotional. Basically everything great that you've come to expect from him on his podcast. His talk was powerful, but the biggest call to action that stood out to me was from his "Get Off the Floor" segment. We have to face the truth that we're always going to get knocked down and constantly doubt our creative abilities. You can either lay on the floor and take it, or you can get up, make stuff and keep going. You have to get off the floor not only yourself but for others as well. He followed this up by stating: "You can't help the world thrive if you're not thriving." Safe to say he put a creative pep in all of our steps and set the tone for the conference. Slow & Steady Grind Next up was Odin Clack from Odin Leather Goods. What stuck out to me was his self-awareness, patience, commitment and work ethic of running his own side hustle outside of his day job. Something I struggle with is feeling I have to have it all figured out now, but what am I rushing for? Odin reminds himself daily to focus on the slow and steady grind and enjoy the process along the way. Pioneers Take All the Arrows Austin Dunbar of Durham Brand & Co. filled in due to a last-minute speaker conflict and he absolutely murdered his talk. One of the things that stuck with me was when he said: "Pioneers take all the arrows." As creatives, we are called to take risks and we have to be willing to make sacrifices. When you share your work or take a stand for something you believe in, people will be waiting in line to scrutinize and critique if they don't understand or accept what you're doing. As a pioneer or someone who is trying to build something bigger than themselves, it's important to keep pressing on and pathing the way for others. Relationship > Reward Jesse Bryan of the Belief Agency had one of those talks that spoke to my core. I admit it, his storytelling and well-timed statistics he peppered in choked me up at times. His talk was all about service and that we need to put our focus on the relationship instead of the reward. For example being motivated for the quick sale instead of over-serving and creating a loyal customer relationship. He instilled in us that we all have the ability to be great through the words of Martin Luther King Jr.: "Anyone can be great because anyone can serve." You're Not Done Making Bad Work Not only are Rogie King & Justin Mezzell extremely talented and know how to party, but they are insanely generous and empathetic individuals. Their talk centered around building friendships and not "networks." Cultivating meaningful friendships is a by-product of getting uncomfortable and reaching out to people. They also drove the point home that putting yourself out their takes guts and that you're never done making bad work. I definitely left their talk ready to hug everyone and take a shot of Bourbon. Never Settle & Change Your Style Erik Marinovich is one of the coolest cats and down to earth people I think I've ever encountered. Everyone loves this dude not only because of his work but due to his infectious personality and how he lifts everyone up around him. I'd have to say his talk was my favorite as he combined lettering with the evolution of hip-hop culture. He gave a lot of great takeaways but what hit home the most was his point of, "Never settle and constantly change your style." I struggle with the fact that my work is all over the place and I don't have a set defined style like you see on hyper-curated Instagram accounts. It was encouraging to know it's perfectly okay and that I have to keep pushing my limits with experimentation. If I draw small all the time, I need to push myself to draw bigger. If I use ink pens all the time, I need to push myself to experiment with a paintbrush. Between his workshop and talk, he left me determined to push the boundaries of what I'm able to create and to keep developing my style. Learn to Love the Crust Confession, I've never been to a talk where the speaker didn't use a slide presentation and it raised some concerns. However, Ashley Ford definitely didn't need them as she held the audience captivated with her storytelling and moments of comic relief. The key to her talk was about being vulnerable and sharing your story. Something that really stood out to me was her point about loving the worst thing about yourself and others. She called it "Learn to love the crust of a motherfucker." She closed the conference down encouraging us to tell the story that you're scared to tell. No matter what, you're affecting somebody's day. Find Your People Do you feel alone with your struggle? Do you feel isolated in your own world with no idea how to push your creative career forward? If so, you need to find your people at conferences. See this as an investment in yourself and your creative future. There are people out there dealing with the same demons as you. There are people out there who nerd out obsessively over the same things as you. You can find these people at conferences. You owe it to yourself to get out of your comfort zone and find your people at a place like Creative Works Conference. Want to Support the Show? Become a backer on Patreon Leave an iTunes Rating and Review Share the show on social media or follow the Perspective Podcast Instagram Subscribe on your favorite podcast player: iTunes Stitcher Google Play Radio Overcast

Understanding the thing behind the thing. We can make great graphics, buy Why? Brandon sits down with filmmaker Jesse Bryan to discuss finding the story behind why we do what we do. At a certain point, Jesse becomes the interviewer, as Brandon candidly uncovers some of the core values that drive him. This is a must listen for any designer realizing that simply "making stuff look cool" just isn't enough. Created by: Brandon Rike Produced by: Brandon Rike & Brian Skeel of Chris Graham Mastering.com Theme Music: The Hands of Stone (Remixed by Jesse Cale) Music: “Dry Air” by Podington Bear // “What True Self Feels” by Chris Zabriskie // “Heebie Jeebies” by Graham Bole