Podcast appearances and mentions of Gary Kinder

We're back and it's a big one! This week Professor Chris (a real professor y'all) is stepping in for Shannon to tell us about the SS Central America and her untimely end. She's full of gold when she goes down, but 130 years later Tommy Thompson finds her and brings up some of her treasure. When asked to pay his backers, Tommy disappears with the gold. So what happened to the gold? How long is too long to be held in contempt of court? And what did Emma believe was a Spanish doubloon for way too long? Come find out and make sure to bring your lawyer! Come follow us on TikTok, Instagram, and Twitter!  Visit our website! Send us a heart fart! Gary Kinder, Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea (2009) PGCS, The Coins of the S.S. Central America Another Delay for Ex-Deep-Sea Treasure Hunter Stuck in Jail Fugitive Treasure Hunter Arrested in Florida Treasure Hunter Still in Jail After 6 Years for Refusing to Disclose Whereabouts of 500 Gold Coins Found in Historic Shipwreck Tarnished Treasure: Will Shipwreck Hunter Tommy Thompson's Legal Limbo Finally End? Court Cases (Various Docket Filings) Columbus-America Discovery Group v. Atlantic Mutual Insurance Company, 56 F.3d 556 (4th Cir. 1995) United States v. Thompson, Case No. 2:15-cr-81 (S.D. Ohio) Williamson v. Recovery Limited Partnership, Case No. 2:06-cv-292 (S.D. Ohio)

Recorded on 1/13/2021 Book Talk starts at 34:34   The 2020 2 Knit Lit Chicks Fall Sweater KAL runs until January 15!  This episode was recorded on January 13th, so please plan on listening to Episode 219 to find out if you won a prize!   The Chicks are mulling over ideas for our next knit-along...stay tuned!   Virtual get-together via  Zoom on Saturdays, 12 noon  PST - Details here   KNITTING       Barb has finished: 1.  Dalki hat by Gillian Harkness, using leftover yarn from a Caron Cake 2.  Mother Bear #232       Tracie has finished: 1.  Moon of My Life pullover by Nadia Cretin-Lechenne in Invictus Yarns Reward in the Christmas Chaos colorway, and Serendipidye Silken Sock in the Papaya colorway       Barb has frogged: Moondrip Swoncho by Dragon Hoard Designs, using Brown Sheep Wildfoote Lusury Sock in the Vanilla colorway, Cloudborn Fibers Highland Superwash Sock Twist in the Magenta and the Ocean colorways     Barb continues to work on: 1.  Multidirectional Scarf #9 by Karen Baumer, using a Caron Cake 2.  Create Your Own Adventure shawl, using a kit made up of Invictus Yarns Beyond yarn {--     And has cast on: 1.  Sunset Highway pullover by Caitlin Hunter, using Brown Sheep Wildfoote Lusury Sock in the Vanilla colorway, Cloudborn Fibers Highland Superwash Sock Twist in the Magenta and the Ocean colorways 2.  Hearten Cowl by Helen Stewart, using scraps and mini-skeins from her stash 3.  Vindaloo shawl by Melissa Shaschwary, using Cloudborn Fibers Highland Worsted in the Winter Sky colorway   Tracie has cast on: 1.  Table runner in Tracie's handspun (Chameleon Fiber Co. Merino/Silk 2.  Girl Cat by Julie Williams in Alexandra The Art of Yarn Pendleton and Paintbox Yarns Simply DK -}                                  And continues to work on:   1.  Vanilla socks in Western Sky Knits Smooth Sock in Concrete Sunset 2.  Snake River Poncho by Katy H. Carroll in Western Sky Knits Aspen Silk 600 in Downtown Colorway   BOOKS     Barb read: 1.  Yard Work by David Koepp - 5 stars 2.  Love Lies: A True Story of Marriage and Murder in the Suburbs by Amanda Lamb - 3.5 stars 3.  Love and Terror on the Howling Plains of Nowhere by Poe Ballantine - 5 stars 4.  Disloyal: The True Story of the Former Personal Attorney to President Donald J. Trump by Michael Cohen - 4 stars 5.  The Dinner by Herman Koch - 4 stars     Tracie read:    1. My Dark Vanessa by Kate Elizabeth Russell - 5 stars   2.  One True Thing by Anna Quindlen - 4 stars   3.  Victim: The Other Side of Murder by Gary Kinder - 4 stars    

Understanding Disease, How Your Heart, Lungs, Blood, and Blood Vessels Function and Respond to Treatment In this two-part series with Dr. Glenn Langer, former Professor of Medicine, specializing in Cardiology, at UCLA we discuss the Partnership Scholars Program and heart disease. In the first interview Dr. Langer describes the Partnership Scholars Program and how attention and exposure to new ideas can create a whole new world for children, whose life experiences might otherwise be forever limited. In the second program, we discuss folklore, literature, psychology as they relate to cardiology and the heart. Dr. Langer is the author of “Understanding Disease, How Your Heart, Lungs, Blood, and Blood Vessels Function and Respond to Treatment,” a book attempting to demystify medicine. Both parts of this program were originally broadcast in October of 2000. Glenn Langer recommends “Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea,” by Gary Kinder and “Eleanor of Aquitaine: A Biography,” by Marion Meade. Originally Broadcast: October 24, 2000 and October 31, 2000

What you’ll learn in this episode: The 21-minute method for conquering writer’s block. How Gary’s WordRake software edits and enhances writing. Top writing techniques for lawyers and legal marketers. About Gary Kinder: Gary Kinder is a highly acclaimed, best-selling author of narrative nonfiction, an investigative journalist, a lawyer, an inspiring speaker and a teacher who understands what you face every time you sit down to write. In 2012, he created and founded WordRake, the first and only in-line editing software for professionals. Adopted in thousands of law firms, corporations, government agencies and universities, WordRake has been hailed as a “Disruptive Innovation” by Harvard Law School, and has been awarded 10 patents by the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office. Gary also created the online, interactive CLE series “Advanced Writing for Lawyers” for the American Bar Association. He has taught over 1,000 writing programs for law firms, power companies, corporations, courts, universities and writing conferences. Additional resources: Gary’s Website WordRake for Lawyers Website eBook: How to Write the Perfect Brief Twitter Facebook LinkedIn Transcript

Gary Kinder knows how few writers and artists succeed. Some say it’s as low as 1%. But he’s up at 5 a.m. every day writing his screenplay, before plunging into the editing software he’s creating. Asked why he does it, he says, “I’m doing what I love!” He has taught over 1,000 writing programs and has appeared on the Today Show and Good Morning America. He is also creator and founder of WordRake, editing software, which is used widely in law firms, government agencies, corporations and universities.

In this, our 5th and final episode in the Hi-Fi Shop Murders series, we discuss what happened to the affected families in the years to come as well as the appeals processes and executions of Pierre and Andrews.  Main Source for all of the Hi-Fi Shop Murders Episodes: "Victim: The Other Side of Murder" by Gary Kinder. 

Episode 63! Like always, Jason and James are back from traveling with reports from diving the great lakes and touring the west coast (SF and LA). From film cameras, to shipwrecks, to the Black Bay GMT and Jason's refurbished T-Graph, there's lots to cover. For the main event, the guys are prompted by a listener question to chat about fitness trackers, smartwatches, and everything in between. Stay in the mix for final notes with space-age Field Notes, Reid Straps, ships full of gold, and a wild look at Zagato. Jason Diving in the Great Lakes http://bit.ly/2zqZNAQ Becky Kagen Schott http://bit.ly/2iwETs9 SS Daniel J. Morrell http://bit.ly/2HE8EOw Shipwreck Explorers http://bit.ly/2zoFOCU Robert McGreevy http://bit.ly/2udON55 Tudor Black Bay GMT http://bit.ly/2KTYSgP Away Carry On http://bit.ly/2K5XsjZ Fjallraven Totepack No.1 http://bit.ly/2JxTjoI Canon AE-1 Program http://bit.ly/2zn0JGp Aquadive Bathysphere 100 GMT http://bit.ly/2uivfvm Doxa T-Graph back from repair http://bit.ly/2u6DtYl Fitbit http://bit.ly/2N1Ssd2 Garmin Descent http://bit.ly/2FW6RoZ Garmin Fenix http://bit.ly/23teTdX Mi Band 2 http://bit.ly/2KU2wr1 Strava http://bit.ly/2NGemDA Aerospace http://bit.ly/2sMoUZm The Chronos http://bit.ly/2J8unPj Field Notes Three Missions Pack http://bit.ly/2m4Bgbm The Reid Strap from the Hodinkee Shop http://bit.ly/2KJWhXI “Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea” (by Gary Kinder) https://amzn.to/2zpou0G “An Inside Look At Zagato, One of the World's Wildest Coachbuilders” (By Ken Saito) http://bit.ly/2zp2piL

EPISODE 26 THE HI-FI SHOP MURDERS OF  STANLEY WALKER SHERRY MICHELLE ANSLEY AND CAROL NAISBITT AND THE ATTEMPTED MURDER OF ORREN WALKER AND CORTNEY NAISBITT The entire state of Utah was rocked in early 1974 when a horrendous series of events occurred. The violence and sadistic nature of the abuse and torture subjected to the innocent victims had a shattering effect on those remaining, and all of the victims' families. Hear how the unique reactions to the life-changing crimes reveal that as victims and co-victims, people find ways to cope that work for them. For production of this episode, we relied on information gleaned from archived newspaper articles from The Ogden Standard Examiner and the Salt Lake Tribune. We also relied on the years of exhaustive research performed by author Gary Kinder, who wrote one of the realest true crime books out there, entitled Victim: The Other Side of Murder. If you are interested in this genre and have not read it, it's simply a must. If you are not interested in this genre, but appreciate the beauty of individualized perseverence, it's simply a must. The strength of character exhibited by the victims and co-victims cannot but inspire. This is not just about some sadistic killers. It's about the stubborn determination to proceed with life after that life has been impacted by psychopaths. This case has been resolved, so there is no call to action. Find everything you need at caseacquaint.com or Apple Podcasts in the itunes store: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/case-acquaint-podcast/id1331093749?mt=2 YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjWIf9lVJiCp8OSlpPel5Dg/videos Radio Public:   https://play.radiopublic.com/case-acquaint-podcast-WDprK7 Follow us on IG: https://www.instagram.com/caseacquaint/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/CaseAcquaint FB: https://www.facebook.com/caseacquaintpodcast/ Support the podcast Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/caseacquaint?alert=2   Music: Modum    by: Kai Engel    Album: Caeli Link to more music by Kai Engel Check out Kai's website  

Life Insurance expert Billy McDougall, takes us on a journey that can completely evolve your life insurance business. Learn why questions are the key to success. View more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT   Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet, Episode Four. Billy McDougall: He said, "Your credibility, your professionalism, all of that is going to be defined not by the things that you say, not by the things that you prove in terms of your product knowledge, but by the quality of your question." Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet is a Podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together. Managers, coaches, and producers. The very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business to have your most successful year ever. Now, here's Mark Miletello, a top 1% producer, manager, and your host of Where the Insurance Pros Meet. Mark Miletello: Welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us. Today is an exciting day. I think most of you are going to gravitate toward our guest that we have because he is an agent. He's an agent who started from scratch. One of my first hires as I went into management 10 years ago. He started really from the medical sales industry and transitioned into the insurance industry. To be able to watch him from day one of his career has been a real treat. He's led my agency. He's been a leader in the company. I believe you're going to love to hear from our guest, Billy McDougall. Billy McDougall: Hey, Mark. Thanks for having me. Mark Miletello: Well, I'm excited to be with you and a couple reasons why. One is you are an agent that I've watched come into this business from an outside industry. You've started from scratch. I've watched the progression of going and you learning different styles. You've learned from several people in the industry, and you've continued to evolve until now. You have one of the most dynamic and powerful life insurance discussions I believe I've ever seen. I'd like to think I played a part in helping you get there, but I'm excited to see the success you're having. You've won back to back Agent of the Years, as well as you are a fireman and you risk your life right now in the California wildfires to protect us, to thank you for your service and welcome to the show. Billy McDougall: Thanks, Mark. Appreciate it. Yeah, I do want to extend a thank you to you. You laid the groundwork for me in this industry. You helped me get my peanut or meet me and just figure out what it meant to have discussions, meaningful discussions with clients. You've also helped me to reach out within the industry and find the very best and brightest and to try and [inaudible 00:02:46] my discussion even more, so thank you for everything you've provided for myself and for my family. Mark Miletello: Well, thank you. Of course, you're my client, so thank you. Having you part of the test pilot group with this entirely new life discussion ... Tell us first before we get into what you're doing now, and using you as the Guinea pig and the test pilot of really transforming and evolving our life discussion. Now, what we're basically launched on VanMark.life. Tell us a little bit about when you got started. Some of the struggles you've had, some of the successes you've had in discussing life insurance. Billy McDougall: Honestly, when I started, I didn't really know much of anything about life insurance. I was joining what I thought was just a PNC company and then it was made very apparent that we were primarily a life insurance company, and that honestly kind of scared me a little bit because you must own car insurance by law. You must have home insurance to carry a mortgage, but you don't have to have life insurance, and I was fearful of how it would be received by clients. I did, I guess I grew in my knowledge of it. Really embraced and just fall in love with the product, and the need that we instill in families. I'd say that I started by just trying to establish a level of professional knowledge with my clients. I think if you go back and listen to the types of discussions that I had with clients when I first started, they were effective relative to product knowledge. Mark Miletello: Right. Billy McDougall: They weren't super effective relative to generating a discussion. They were still very much one-sided. I believe I probably did 90% of the talking and the client only did 10%, and hopefully, I was able to stay in their good graces long enough to let me finish through that discussion. Mark Miletello: Oh no, I agree. As a matter of fact, I think I still have that recording where you came into my office eight or nine years ago and delivered a mock, not presentation, of course. But at the time, I was your only liaison to the industry, so you were basically duplicating my process and maybe a couple others that I introduced you to. I think that's kind of the way we've all been taught, or maybe we feel like even, regardless of the way we've been taught or not, it's so much information we feel like we must get through within an hour, which ends up sometimes becoming two hours that we feel like we have to talk 90% of the time. Right? Billy McDougall: Correct. Yes. Honestly, part of that for me was when I first started, I thought that I had to legitimize myself in being a professional in the eyes of the client. I believe that that was done by showing them how extensive my product knowledge was. Mark Miletello: Right. Billy McDougall: That lends itself to a presentation-style discussion. Mark Miletello: Well, when you say "presentation-style discussion", expand on that and tell us what that means to you. Billy McDougall: Well, I think I was very effective in getting across points. Whether or not those were received is a completely different aspect, in whether they're received in the way that they want to be received. It's kind of like, what do they say? You throw a spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. That's how those presentations were. Though they were effective, and I was able to sell life insurance with those, they were a lot of work. It was trying for myself to keep the clients engaged. I had to constantly battle and do work against their attention spans, relative to what I thought was hopefully important in their lives, instead of me really having a good discussion where they're doing 90% of the talking. They're engaging me, and we're addressing things that are relevant to the first and foremost, relative to these products. Mark Miletello: When you say "presenting", I think what I heard you say is you feel like when you call it a "presentation" or you're presenting to the client, you feel like 90% of the time you're talking because you're trying to express a level of professionalism through your product knowledge, through the extensive details of the bells and whistles of the product, right? Billy McDougall: Yeah. Mark Miletello: Great analogy. You're throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. What that means is you're spewing this product knowledge so much that every now and then, something sticks. But you know what? You did a pretty darn good job of it. You came right in, won trips, won Agent of the Year, led my agency for three or four years in a row. What was so bad about it if it works? Billy McDougall: It wasn't so bad. In fact, it was tremendously effective. But it made it very hard for me to consider a change. In fact, there are national speakers that I had heard multiple times, multiple years in a row before I made a commitment to do something different. I can't even honestly tell you what triggered that desire to make a change, but I finally did. I took a leap of faith and I completely rearranged my ... The presentation is gone. It's not a presentation at all. Everything now is a discussion with the client, where I'd say they're doing at least 50% of the talking. On a good day, much, much more. It's much more engaging for them. It's much more specific for what they care about, and it's much more effective in terms of making sure you have a good product then because ethically then for me, ultimately, I only want what's best for the client, and their opinion is the one that matters. If I'm giving them a presentation, how am I meeting their needs? I'll tell you, I've had just so much fun in changing this into a true discussion, helping them organize their thoughts around important concepts like life insurance, financial planning, based on helping them by leading them through a sequence of questions that are relevant to those things to understand what matters to them. Mark Miletello: Well, I heard you say something in there. A strange word to our industry in the form of meeting with a client, but you said you have fun with clients. I remember when you and I were on the cuff, and it's okay to say it. You and I were together, following Van Miller, and Van Miller and I, of course, have developed VanMark.life, which you were instrumental in helping us. At this point, I don't know who comes up with what. I'm sure it all stems back from Van, and Van says it stems even further back to the mentors in his. Yes, whether it's Gary Kinder, or Tom Hegna, or Brian McKnight, or Van Miller, or all those things, I do recall, and it's been about two years for myself, so I'm trying to put the timeline together. But you and I decided at some point that we had to start with the first step of calling our new, evolved presentation, if you will, a life insurance discussion. I think that was the first step of reminding us of, number one, not to talk so much. Right? Not to just continually beat them up with bells and whistles and product knowledge. At some point, we ... I still let it slip every now and then, but I've conditioned myself to even call the training platform and its own lifeinsurancediscussion.com, that that's the first step I think, Billy, that you and I walked through was to start reshaping how we talk to clients by even what we call what we're doing. Then you said, "having fun in a meeting". How do you have fun at a meeting? I mean, I think we all think it's a little bit fun what we do, especially when we win and we make sales and have success. But I think you're talking about a different kind of fun. Right? Billy McDougall: Always at some level in the meeting, you have the sensation that you're helping lead them down a road, and I think that the client has that same sensation. Van Miller is just fantastic and been listening to him speak over multiple years now, multiple occasions. One of the things that he said, and this goes back to where I was trying to establish, initially when I was new in the industry, my credibility, he said, "Your credibility, your professionalism, all of that is going to be defined not by the things that you say, not by the things that you prove in terms of your product knowledge, but by the quality of your questions." I just thought that was just the oddest thing to hear, and I wrote it down multiple times from multiple speeches that he's given on national podiums or regional podiums. Finally, I internalized that. It's been incredible, the things that he said. I literally just last week had someone who said, "You're the most knowledgeable insurance and financial advisor I have ever met with, and I'm 51 years old and I've been dealing with people my whole life. For the first time, I really have a sense of understanding and comfort in what I'm trying to accomplish." That's because I had him do all the talking. Everything was questioned. The thought process is we all want to be good at insurance and financial planning, as clients. As clients, we want to be good at that. We want to do it well. There's nothing in there that is exceptionally difficult. Everything is very much common sense, but people don't have organized thoughts around those considerations, so they can conclude, so the types of questions we ask help them organize their thoughts around insurance and financial planning. When you do that, it becomes a lot of fun because it's truly a fun, interesting conversation, give and take, instead of, "Let me control this time so I can have you here, understand, and value what I'm trying to share." It truly has just been interesting conversations, and you have to be willing to put yourself out for that. Once I finally did, I was just like kicking myself, going, "Oh my gosh. I should have done this years ago. I should have trusted Van in the very beginning because it has absolutely changed the way my clients view me. It has changed my level of enjoyment and excitement in terms of what I'm doing, and it absolutely changed consistency, and satisfaction, referrals." Across the board, it's just opened the floodgates in terms of changing my business. Mark Miletello: I talked to Van, and as of the recording of this show, as of today, I just launched the lifeinsurancediscussion.com training platform that allows the agent to walk through that same process that you and I have walked through in an organized fashion. It's just funny that you haven't even seen the finished product, but you know that what it took you and me... You're right. You and I heard Van say it. We went to four different speeches where we've heard him talk. We had the same set of notes. I even told Van this last week. I said, "Van, it's hard when something works for someone, and whether you're selling five life apps a year or a hundred, whether you're selling $5,000 in premium or $50,000 as a multiple-line agent, or $250,000 or more, you feel like you have a process that somehow works, that gets the job done." I remember you saying earlier, you had to decide to throw all that out of the window. It's not that we forget because we still have those things, those stories and those discussions that we can pull out, such as stories of the farmer and the seed and things like that. But I think what took you and me two years to get to was letting go of the way we do things and say, "Okay ... " The funny thing, Billy, you and I have challenged each other to have a complete interview discussion with a client, and try to ask questions the entire time. Now, I think it's virtually impossible if you were to record yourself to not have a statement in that entire 45-minute or hour-long meeting. You're going to have statements. Billy McDougall: Of course. Mark Miletello: But I think it's a fun challenge for each other to say, "Hey Billy, let's try to go through an entire life insurance discussion with just asking questions." I've tried to do that. It's impossible, but it's fun to try. Billy McDougall: Yeah, and Van has some interesting nuances that he uses in his discussion. When he needs to address a point to drive home a concept for them to consider and decide how they value that concept, he'll ask them. He'll say, "Do you mind if I share a story with you?" Now, you're engaging them instead of just launching into, "Well, I've got a story for you about this." Or, "Do you mind if I share with you this aspect or another?" Those little nuances help to keep that sensation, that feeling of it being very conversational, even in points where you need to get them a little bit of detail so that they can make a better determination of their opinion. Mark Miletello: Billy, you and I have kind of started this path together a few years ago, like I mentioned. At times, we've talked about it, we've shared notes. I put together a PowerPoint of my thoughts and even recorded voice-over over each slide. At the same time, I give you credit for doing the final piece of the puzzle that needed to be done for me as an agent. Not talking about management. I'm just saying as an agent in the business, as peers I guess I should say, what I credit you is getting it on one page. That's what I've always told every educational department I've worked with, and process that I've been. You must get it on one page for agents to wrap their brain. I'm giving you the credit on the show for being the guy who put the final pieces of the puzzle and got this life insurance discussion on one page. Can you tell us the importance of that, how you did it, and tell us about that one page? Billy McDougall: Absolutely. Well, first, none of that is original content. None of that is an original thought. All of that is stuff that I've garnered basically standing on the shoulders of giants. People like Van Miller, people like yourself, other people in the industry, Tom Hegna, using their concepts and their ideas. I said, "Okay, there's such a great amount of knowledge there, and I'm just not that smart of a guy. What I really need to do is I need to have a way, on a consistent basis, whether I'm on and having good discussions with clients, or whether I'm a little flat and I'm not good. On a consistent basis, something that can ground me and help me stay on track in terms of not a presentation, but in terms of appropriate ideas to bring up questions about, to discuss." What I did is I took basically some of the main components that I feel like I identify the most, taxes, volatility, fees, inflation, leverage, and I kind of built out, I don't know if you want to call it an outline or an agenda. It's just something that's good for me so that I can track along with the client and I know where I'm going next, and we address those things in that way. I'm able to be consistent in my discussions. The discussions go whichever way the client wants them to go. But I'm sure we've all been in meetings where a client brings up something, you're off on a tangent, and you never end up back to addressing some of these issues and concerns that really the client needs to consider for them to have organized thoughts and move forward in the insurance or the financial world. Mark Miletello: Yes, and having an agenda ... Really, I've gotten away later in my career from using or having an agenda. You've been one of the few agents that I've worked with that has always used an agenda, and you make no excuse. In fact, you make it a great thing. You tell the client, "I have an agenda, so we don't get off track. We're going to go through this, and I'm going to actually take notes and give you a copy of this." That's one thing that I've just been amazed at the way that you do is that the notes that you have from your meetings are by far the best that I've ever seen. It's better than my own. What I like about it, and back in the early days when you needed my help, and you would send me that, it would just blow me away. But what it does is it helps you keep a record of the client's goals, dreams, wishes, needs, and deliver that back to the client and present that back to the client by saying, "This is what you told me, and this is how we're going to fix it," which I think is a great idea that I've seen very few people, if any, do in a life insurance discussion or sale. But putting it on one page, then an agent can take all this world of information that we've been gathering for two years, and thinking that it's just so much. It's drinking from a fire hose, using a fireman aspect there. That's what I felt, and I've led this industry as a life insurance agent, and to me, it was like drinking from a fire hose. To me, having it on one page helps you wrap your brain around, "Hey, I can do this. I can learn this. Not only that, I can deliver this." You've told us a little bit about where you've come from. You've discussed what a presentation means to you, and you've really defined it since you've been talking. But point blank, Billy, now I'll ask you the question. What is a life insurance discussion, and how can an agent stop everything that they're doing? What were some of the recommendations you would make about having a discussion? Tell us what a discussion means to you. Billy McDougall: That's a tough question to answer, but I'll tell you how I formulated my process for asking good, relevant questions. First, I had to identify the areas that made sense to discuss, and we already kind of went into some of those things. There can be many more areas, and you can add that to your agenda. "What other items do you have on the table, Mr. Client or Mrs. Client, that you would like addressed here?" Mark Miletello: Right. Billy McDougall: Once I identified those, it was really a test. I sat down with multiple people, and I went through the process and they'd stop me. They say, "No, you're telling. You're not asking." I'd have to step back and think, "Okay, I don't want to lead a client in a direction. That's unethical. What I want to do is discuss a topic." You can drown them in some stuff briefly about it, but get their opinions on it. What that discussion looked like for me? Don't get me wrong, I think that Van does have the finest questions in the industry. His CDs are on repeat in my car. I've listened to them for hundreds of hours. I happen to have long commutes, so it allows me that time. That stuff just comes out in the discussion. But it was coming out just kind of randomly. I wasn't using it very effectively. The reason that I went to that one-page outline or agenda was to help make sure that I captured those specific things. Van impressed upon us a handful of things. He said, "You should be silent in the discussion. It really should be the client who does almost all the talking. Your discussions should be short. They should be 45 minutes or less." That is just scary and painful to hear. That includes taking applications. That's Van's recommendation. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Billy McDougall: That's hard for me. I'm a pretty analytical person, and that's been a real big thing for me to do. Van says, "If there's an analytical bone in your body, you need to get rid of it right now because you can't be that way." He speaks well. He has this concept of, "You know, it's your responsibility. You are the financial professional. It's your responsibility to know every little minute detail of how your product works, the implications to your clients. All that stuff is you. Now, your responsibility in helping a client understand what they need is not necessarily explaining to them every specific detail about how that product works, but instead, what that product does for them. That's dictated by the things they deem to be important." That was a shift for me, being an analytical person. Instead of digging so deeply into individual things, talking more about broader concepts. I find that 95% of my discussion with clients is broad, on large topics, broad in scope, and maybe 5% of the time we may look at an illustration. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Billy McDougall: It has probably flipped from what it was when I started in the industry. You're so focused on solutions, and you hear that in the industry. Right? "Don't be solution-focused. Work on the problem. What does the client want?" But I just didn't know how to bridge that gap, and Van's information, the way that he has interviews with clients has been super effective in helping me do that. I just had to organize a way for me to be able to have that discussion consistently with each client. Mark Miletello: Yeah, and that's why Van and I came together is that, again, two years of following him and listening to the CDs, hundreds of hours, trying to figure out a way to have a discussion and ask questions, versus ... That's a tough thing to do, and it's a hard process. It's tough to swallow, but it can be done. I think it's hard to continue on and giving the listener out there exactly how to do it, and that's why I told Van, I said, "We need to come together, form VanMark.life, and we need to show people a process where they can learn what took us two years to learn, they can learn in two weeks. They can learn in two months." Having it on a training platform so that they can walk through what you and I walked through every step of the way, but much faster, and get to that realization that how do you not talk about the product when that's what you're there to offer? The bottom line is, you're talking more, like you said, of big picture items. You're talking strategies and you're talking philosophies. Yeah, it's very effective. It's a dynamic. It is fun. You walk out of there feeling like you really are on the side of the client, instead of presenting a product. Billy, I appreciate your time. Looking back over your career and the successes you've had, can you pinpoint one area where you would tell a new agent, "Don't make this mistake." Did you have a fumble at some point along the way that you would guide a new agent or maybe a veteran agent not to make the same mistake? Billy McDougall: I think that we've all fumbled in our careers. I certainly have. I like to try and be very honest about those so that I have them as an opportunity to learn. Have a level of humility that allows you to be open to input from everyone. Someone who's a lesser agent with less experience can give you valuable input that you can implement to be successful. I'd say the biggest thing, the biggest mistake I have made is the unwillingness to change when I feel like, "Hey something's working. I've got a process. It's going to be hard for me to consider doing something else." But I certainly wasn't going to do any better, and I wasn't going to help my clients any better by continuing to do what I was doing. There is only so much time in a day. The top producers have better products, business. More commissions on the book, more premiums on the book, more people helped. They have the same amount of time in the day that we do, so listening to Van a hundred times say, "You need to stop doing what you're doing and try something different to make yourself better, and to be a better resource for your client." Stepping away and doing that is a big leap of faith, and I wish I had done it sooner because you're fearful of change. But that change makes my career so much more fun, so much more rewarding. Mark Miletello: Well, I love those late-night calls where you say, "Mark, I wrote a 2,000-a-month permanent life insurance plan." "I wrote a 300-a-month term life app, and the client begged me for it." You're having much more fun, and I think I get it, and I try to be that way. I try to take your advice. I want to always continue learning, but sometimes you think you know enough and you stop learning. I think that's your fumble is you need to be coachable, right? Even at our stage, whether you're a new agent or a veteran agent or in between, you need to be able to look around, evolve what you do. You must constantly evolve, for sure. Billy McDougall: Absolutely. Mark Miletello: Yeah, so let me ask you this. You've been in the industry for 10 years. You've seen a lot of change, and I'll put you on the spot. In this show, we like to get a professional prediction. What do you see 10 years down the road, and let's kind of keep the topic in life insurance? I know you're a multiple-line agent, and that makes you even more phenomenal for life premium that you collect. But looking down the road, what is your professional opinion and advice to the agent? What does the industry look like, and how do we fit in? Billy McDougall: I don't know the answer to that, of course. Nobody does, but my best guess would be, at a certain point, the government's going to take some of these tools away from us. These are tools that we want people to get an opportunity to have organized thought around those things, consider them, determine if they want them, and have access to them. There is some level of urgency, and it's not on the client. It's on us. It's on us as agents. We need to be as effective as we can in having quality discussions. Not pushing products, not selling products, but reaching out to as many people and giving them information so that they can make good decisions for their families. It's okay if they thoughtfully reject ideas, but it's not okay if they're never given the opportunity to do that. There are only a few times in a person's life where they're going to talk to a professional like you. Scarcity, there's going to be some of that moving forward in the next 10 years. Mark Miletello: Well said. Well said. You're right. It's a fun question. I like to hear what professionals in the industry think about our future. It's always optimistic that we're going to be needed. I love what you say, that we're going to be even more needed to have a better discussion and ... You're right. Giving the client just the opportunity to have the discussion is what most agents aren't giving their clients.I want to tell you to thank you for joining us on Where the Insurance Pros meet. You are a consummate pro. I like to think of you like my big brother, and of course, I'm older than you so I can't say that. But I like to think of you in the way that I think of him that every time I get around him, I learn something. Billy, if I can say one thing about you, that's what I would say is I learned something. Thanks for now becoming a mentor of mine. Billy McDougall: Hey, same with you, Mark. I appreciate you very much. Thank you, sir. Mark Miletello: Thank you.

Today’s episode is on retirement income solutions. Tom Henga is a retirement income specialist. Learn more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT Announcer 1 Where the Insurance Pros Meet, Episode 2. Announcer 2 If you really want to get good, I mean, you want to be the best in the business, you've got to train a little bit every single day just like the pro football players do. Announcer 1 Where the Insurance Pros Meet is a podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together: managers, coaches, and producers. The very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business to have your most successful year ever. Now, here's Mark Miletello, a top one percent producer, manager, and your host of "Where the Insurance Pros Meet". Mark Miletello Today we're going to discuss retirement income solutions. We have on the show with us the retirement income specialist himself. He's the author of four best sellers, "Paychecks and PlayChecks", "Retirement Income Masters", "Paycheck and Playchecks for Canadians", and most recently, "Don't Worry Be Happy: Seven Steps to Retirement Security, which has played on public television to over 72 million homes in the US and Canada. Our guest specializes in creating, what I love, is simple and powerful retirement solutions based on math and science and not opinions. I've seen him speak myself. He's exciting. You should look him up. He speaks to businesses, government organizations, professional associations, financial professionals, and more importantly, clients across the globe. The road warrior himself, Tom Hegna. Welcome to the show, Tom. Tom Hegna Thank you, Mark. Thanks for having me. Mark Miletello Well, Tom, NFL season is here. I'm excited. The pros are practiced, rehearsed, the butterflies are gone. It's game time. Tom, congratulations, and thanks for being a leader, a voice, and a consummate professional in the insurance industry; and is, really, the leading speaker and coach in the financial services industry. So, thanks for coming to the show. Can you give us a kickoff of this show with a professional tip or advice just to start us off and get this game going? Tom Hegna Sure. I mean, since you're talking about pro football, let me ask you a question. How often do they train do you think? Do they train once a quarter? Once every six months? A couple of times a year? They train every single day. Sometimes they do doubles. Sometimes they do triples. What people don't understand is that the top producers in any business, but let's just say pro football, they're constantly training. You know what else, they've got a coach. Why would they need a coach? They're the best players in the world. Because the coach sees things they don't. The coach can come up with a game plan. And I think what both you and I do is we focus on training and coaching. Why do people in our industry think that they don't need to train every single day? And, you know, if you or I were training or coaching them, even for 10 or 15 minutes every day, imagine how much better they would be in three months, six months, nine months. And so, I guess that would be my opening pitch, is that if you really want to get good, I mean, you want to be the best in the business, you've got to train a little bit every single day just like the pro football players do. Mark Miletello You know, I'm even more excited now because you're spot on. As a producer, as an agent, sometimes we're out there by ourselves; and here I am, 27 years into my career, and I still have a coach. I still have a mentor. I still look for more knowledge. So, you're exactly right, and that's the type of stuff I knew we were going to get right off the bat from you. Right now, let's break for industry news. There's no secret, the Department of Labor rulings are dominating the news in the insurance and financial services stadium. Tom, help us out. How do you think the industry will or will not change with these Department of Labor rulings? Tom Hegna Well, you know, it's kind of interesting, I was just on a nationwide debate last week with Knute Rothstead. He's the co-founder of the fiduciary standard, and he debated for the ruling. I debated against it. And I'd encourage your listeners to listen to it. It's free. They can go to apviewpoint.com and register for free and it's in there, or just look up any of my social media. I've got the recordings posted, but I encourage them to listen to it. But to your question, I would say this. I think some good things will come out of it. We all know there were some bad products out there. We all know there were some bad people out there. But what I tried to say in the debate is, you know, Bernie Madoff was a fiduciary, but I don't go around saying all the fiduciaries are Bernie Madoff, and I don't have anything wrong with fiduciaries. But my point in the debate is, right now, it's legal in all 50 states to do business with a fiduciary. So, if you really want a fiduciary, guess what? You can do business with one, but not everybody's choosing that. I said this, "If fiduciaries were so good at what they did, if they were so good, guess what, they'd put everybody else out of business." How could State Farm do what they do? How could New York Life do what they do? How could American National do what they do? If fiduciaries are so good, everybody would have to become a fiduciary, or they'd go out of business. But here's the truth, the truth is they aren't always that great. There are fiduciaries who are not taking longevity risk off the table. There are fiduciaries who are not taking long-term care risk off the table. There are fiduciaries who aren't using life insurance to leverage wealth transfer to children and grandchildren. So, my question to them is how can you be doing what's in the best interest of your clients if you're not using annuities, life insurance, and long-term care? So, that is on their side. But on our side, I would say this, I think we are going to see products, maybe a little more leveling of the commission, which I don't think is bad. I don't think there should be necessarily you make more commission on that versus this, and then you're tilted to recommend that over that. I think that's one of the good things that will come out of this rule is that companies are going to really must look at what is in the best interests of their clients? Now I don't agree that just a fiduciary puts their best interests. I see insurance professionals or financial professionals all over the country, every day, who are putting their client's best interests first; but I think there will be some good things that will come out of it as well. Mark Miletello Well, the Department of Labor ruling, I mean, I agree. I think that protecting clients ultimately is the goal, and that's more important than anything, but there is a balance, and I think that's the issue that you're talking about. We must find the balance, right? Tom Hegna Right. And what I proposed, at the end, instead of just beating up on my opponent or just trying to trash the DOL rule, what I tried to propose was a fiduciary process. You see I think the argument about fees versus commission, that's ridiculous. I can show you plenty of places where a commission is better for a client, and they can show you plenty of places where a fee is better. So, let's just agree that the fee commission argument just depends on the client. That's a ridiculous rule. But, let's also agree that nobody knows what's going to be the best. Here's the problem with the fiduciaries. It's the best interest. Did you know that if you go to five different fiduciaries, give them your exact same set of circumstances, you will get five different courses of actions proposed? Speaker 5 Exactly. Tom Hegna All in your best interests? I mean, that doesn't even make sense. How could five different people give five different solutions if this is in my best interest? So, what I say is let's agree that nobody knows what's going to be the best, all right? And what math and science do is when you get into a situation where you don't know what's going to be the best, there are so many variables, what math and science look for is the optimal way to do it. And all optimal means is this will be the best more often than anything else will be the best and it'll never be the worst. So, what I propose and what I talk about all the time, I don't talk about the best way to retire, because nobody knows what's the best way to retire. I talk about the optimal way. And so what I proposed at the end of the debate is something that I think both sides could agree on. What if we had a fiduciary process that said step number one you got to have a plan, and it's got to be in writing, and you need to work with a financial professional, and it needs to be reviewed regularly. That'd be step one. Step two, why don't we insist that they cover their basic living expenses with guaranteed lifetime income. That's what all the PhDs who study retirement say you should do. And then what if we said for the rest of the portfolio you optimize that to protect yourself against inflation. Or, if you weren't in the securities business, you could ladder their income products, so they could have one that starts at age 60, one that starts at age 65, one that starts at age 70; but the key is to give them increasing income for the rest of their life. What if we taught our clients how to maximize their social security benefits? See social security's the largest retirement asset most people have. What if we said that no retirement plan is complete without a plan for long-term care and that we were required to discuss a long-term care plan with the people. And then what if we used life insurance as the most efficient way to pass wealth. That if they have a life insurance policy for the kids, they could spend more of their money in retirement. I said now that is a process that would be based in math and science that, whether you are a fiduciary or non-fiduciary, whether you sell annuities or manage money, or you pay fees or commissions couldn't we agree that that would be a powerful process that would be in the client's best interest, and then we can just disagree. To me, that's the solution. Mark Miletello Wow. And thanks for being a voice for our industry. We need a voice right now more than ever, and really, you're a voice for the client as well. As I've read and studied and followed you, the sound advice you give is on behalf of the client and, like you said, the little things, how commissions are paid, that's the little things. Now giving more than 5,000 speeches and seminars and really influencing hundreds of thousands of advisors out there, let's talk about you. Let's talk about Tom Hegna himself. Can you tell us in your own words how you arrived at the point where you are today? Tom Hegna Well, look, I'm driven right now by one thing. There are 78 million baby boomers out there who are retiring. They're either in retirement or close to retirement. And tens of millions of them are going to run out of money if we don't get to them first. And so, I'm really driven by the fact that I can't get in front of 78 million people, but you know what? You can get in front of a 1,000. They can get in front of a 1,000. They can get in front of a 1,000. They can get in front of a 1,000. So, if I can get in front of 300, 500 thousand advisors, a million advisors, through the leverage of their work, we can get in front of most of these 78 million. Look, most people won't do everything they're supposed to, but we can fix a lot of them. I've been in the business for over 30 years. I've learned a lot in that time. When I was at New York Life, I was kind of in charge of their retirement income push, and so I found out things I never knew. Mortality credits. Longevity credits. I learned things about longevity risk. I learned things about why guaranteed income is so important. And happiness in retirement. See, I talk to people all the time. You know, it's one thing to retire optimal or not optimal, but don't you want to be happy in retirement; because I can show people how they can be happy in retirement. And happiness in retirement is tied almost 100% to guaranteed lifetime income, and so I can demonstrate that to them. I can show them all the research and all the articles that have studied it. And so that's kind of what gets me up in the morning is I'm trying to help 78 million baby boomers. I can't get to all of them, but I can get a bunch of advisors and try to help them help their clients. Mark Miletello Well, perfectly said. I'm looking at the parallels in our history. First, thank you for your service in the army, six years’ service. I had six years’ service in the army, as well, before I started my career, during my career. But I was an agent, I was a producer, and nine years ago I went into management. I had won a lot of the awards that I set out to and had the success that I wanted to have as a producer. I think at a point I wanted to touch more people, as well. I found that my passion and heart is helping clients with what you call miracles, selling life insurance, which I totally agree with that in your book. But what I wanted to do was touch more lives, just like you said. And going into management, I felt like building 20, 30, 40 agents, we could touch more lives and get the message out there. I love the fact that you've taken it even additional, and that's, of course, the reason for this podcast, having a place where we can touch more people, help more people through the things that you talk about and teach in securing and doing the right things. I told you right before we started to show that I read your book a third time Monday on a plane. I couldn't put it down until I got to St. Louis and I must tell you, it just meant something totally different to me at this point in my career. So, we talked about the industry, the news, we talked a little bit about you, and congratulations on all the accomplishments you've had, and the best sellers that you've had. Let's talk a little bit about clients. What is the number one piece of advice, Tom, that you would give to retirees today? Tom Hegna Well, that they've got to have a plan to retire. See, most people don't have a plan. And again, that plan should include some very simple things. They should make sure that their basic living expenses are covered with guaranteed lifetime income so that no matter what happens to the market or no matter what happens to interest rates, they will at least have their basic living expenses covered. Then they got to have a plan for inflation because guaranteed lifetime income, if you just buy one, unless you buy inflation protection on it, it's going to stay the same, and over time prices go up. So, you've got to have a plan for inflation and I leave that up to the advisor. They can recommend a market-based solution of stocks or mutual funds, commodities, real estate, that's fine, or you can ladder your guaranteed products. That's what I've done. I've got eleven of them and I've got them starting at different ages, and so I will have increasing income for the rest of my life. You've got to have a plan to protect yourself against inflation, and then you've got to have a plan to protect yourself against the risk of long-term care. That's probably, after longevity risk, that's the other biggest risk. Seventy-two percent of all people will need to have a plan for long-term care. They should maximize their social security benefits. That's the largest retirement asset that most of them have and, in general, just very simple, the breadwinner should delay. So, if you've got a husband or wife, and the husband made more money than the wife, the wife can take her benefits early if she wants to, but the husband should wait until 70 because his check covers both lives. That's why the breadwinner should delay. And then use your home equity wisely. There are all kinds of new things like reverse mortgage market. You can sell your home and capture capital gains tax breaks, and so use your home equity wisely. Then I always say leave life insurance to your kids for pennies on the dollar, and then just go out and spend your money and have fun in retirement. So, I talk a lot about how to have fun in retirement, how to never run out of money in retirement, and how to not have to go to a nursing home so you get to stay in your house for the rest of your life because you have a plan. And so, those are the concepts that I talk with retirees. Mark Miletello Well, I've been training based on a lot of what you've said, and I've also been following and mentoring with Van Mueller who, by the way, speaks very highly of you. Tom Hegna Dan's a great guy. We go way back. Mark Miletello Absolutely. And so, I've been rolling out to the agents that I'm mentoring and acronym, TVFIL, taxes, volatility, fees, inflation, and longevity. In your book, Paychecks, and Playchecks, you say the greatest threat to retirees is longevity. It's a multiplier of the rest. Can you expound on that? Tom Hegna Yeah, because the longer you live, the more likely the market will crash. The longer you live, the more likely you'll take out too much money. The longer you'll live the more likely inflation will decimate your purchasing power. The longer you live the more likely you're going to need long-term care. What I tell the people is this. Look, if you retire when you're 65, and you drop dead when your 68, it doesn't matter if the market crashes 10,000 points. It doesn't matter if inflation was 15%. It doesn't matter if you were drawing 12% a year. It doesn't matter if you forgot to buy long-term care insurance. You didn't a life long enough. But if you live to be 75, 80, 85, 90, it's all those other risks that will wipe you out. So, of all the research, I can find from the smartest PhDs in the world who study retirement said this: "To retire successfully you must take longevity risk off the table." Well, guess what, stocks can't do that. Bonds can't do that. Mutual funds can't do that. Real estate can't do that. Only some form of an annuity can do it. A lifetime income annuity, you might call it an SPIA, a deferred income annuity, you might call it a DIA, or an income or withdrawal benefit rider from a fixed index variable annuity, that is it. Those are the only things that can take longevity risk off the table. So, you've got to put an annuity in that portfolio. And then people don't understand that the reason is that you put it in the portfolio is to take longevity risk off the table. Why? Because only a life insurance company can issue an annuity. Why? Because only a life insurance company sells life insurance to be on the other side of that risk. See because an insurance company is on both the life insurance and annuity side, that if people die too soon or live too long, they can neutralize themselves. Because if this person lives to be 115, that's okay, that person over there died when they were 60, so they're protected against both longevity and mortality risk because they're on both sides of the risk. Your banker can't do it. Your broker can't do it. Only the life insurance industry can protect people from dying too soon or living too long. That is a mathematical, scientific, and economic fact. Mark Miletello I'm so pumped up right now. I read your book on a plane. I got off to give a speech. I believe it was the most powerful speech of my career. And in the speech, I held up your book and ... it was a study group of the top leaders in my company. I held up your book, and I said, "You have to find your voice right now." One of the things that you said in your book, Paychecks, and Playchecks, you said, "We are at different times." And I think one big message that you give is to wake up. Wake up and look around. And I think that's the hardest thing for me, was for me, is to find that voice like you have found, like Van's found, like others succeeding and ... Let me go back to one little point. You had mentioned annuities that pay for life, and you know what, I get caught up or have been caught up, with clients talking about rates of return. You get completely away from that, and you focus on the longevity. The income stream for life and the value and importance of that, and I really had some of my first discussions where I said that the interest rate doesn't matter. Can you dive a little deeper into how reps should consider ...? Because I've got to be honest, I've sold tons of annuities, tons of life insurance, I've helped protect families and clients; but I've never really until, I think this week, saw the value and importance of what you say and how you use these products to protect people in these uncertain times. Tom Hegna I often talk about the payout rates of annuities. And if you look at SPIA OR a DIA, the guaranteed payout rates for those things are very high. They're 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 percent guaranteed for the rest of the client's life. And I always tell advisors, I say someday if you talk about payout rates the client's going to ask you, "Okay, but what is my interest rate?"  I got two ways to answer that. Number one, "What would you like it to be?" Because the insurance company does not set the interest rate on an income annuity. They set the payout rate. It never sets the interest rate the client by how long they live. So, I say, "If you want a higher interest rate, just live longer. If you want a higher interest rate than that, live longer than that." That's what I love about these products. You get to set your own interest rate. I hope you set it very high. But the second way I handle it is this. It doesn't matter. Just like you said, it doesn't matter what the interest rate is. When somebody asks you "what is the interest rate", in their mind they think this is an investment that they want to compare to their Merrill Lynch or their Schwab or their Edward Jones investment. And what I would say that an income annuity is not an investment. It is a guaranteed paycheck for the rest of your life. So, if I went on an appointment with that advisor, these are the exact words that would come out of my mouth. "I'd say Mr. and Mrs. Client, congratulations, you're now retired. In retirement, you're going to need a paycheck. Now at our company, you can have your paycheck guaranteed or non-guaranteed, which do you prefer?" Most people say guaranteed. "We can guarantee it for your life or for both of your lives, which would you prefer?" Most of them say for both of our lives. So, I repeat it back. "What I just heard you say is you would like a guaranteed paycheck for the rest of both of your lives." Yes. That's what this does. And there's no other product in the world you can buy that will give you a higher guaranteed paycheck for the rest of both of your lives. So, it doesn't matter what the interest rate is. You want a paycheck. You want it guaranteed. You want it guaranteed for the rest of both of your lives. That's what this does. Merrill Lynch, Schwab, E-trade, they can't do that. Mark Miletello So, I've got my checkbook out. I feel like I need to pay you for that. Tom Hegna I mean, let's keep it simple, and let's have fun in the appointments too. I have fun when I'm in front of people. I get in front of more people probably than almost all your listeners combined. So, I'm in front of people every day and I have fun with it. [crosstalk 00:21:36 Mark Miletello Absolutely, and I'm glad I asked that question because I needed the answer to that, and I would imagine a lot of my agents and my listeners as well needed the answer to that. And so, that'll help us find our voice in competing again what interest rate is at, and just spot on. I obviously brought up "Paychecks and Playchecks" several times. That book is just filled with so many nuggets. I've highlighted the entire book, and it's going to be part of my process going forward and training, and teaching, and reading, and learning myself. I'm excited to hear a little bit more about, "Don't Worry Retire", but before that, what inspired you to write "Paychecks and Playchecks"? Tom Hegna Here's kind of what happened. I was still at New York Life at the time when I was asked to speak at the top of the table for MDRT, which is a huge honor. This is a top of the table event of MDRTs, the top of the top of the top, but I didn't know that MDRTs, that to test their speakers because it's a smaller group. It's the highest group, but there are only about 500 people. If you do good there, then they'll ask you to domain platform at MDRT, the general session, where there's six, seven thousand. But anyway, I had a presentation and they said you got have a name for this thing, you got to have a name for this. And we talked about it and said what about Paychecks and Playchecks. I said, "Oh, that's a great name." So, we titled my talk "Paychecks and Playchecks". Well, it was a huge hit, and then I did MBRT the next year in Vancouver. It was a huge hit. I didn't have a book. And that's killer. You're on the main platform at this big thing. I didn't have a book. Everybody said, "You've got to have a book." So, I sat down and I wrote the book and then what we did is we took my "Paychecks and Playchecks" talk from MDRT and we broke it out into chapters, and then we built up the chapters. I put in all the knowledge that I'd learned over the years and that was "Paychecks and Playchecks". And it was a foundational book. It sold over two million dollars. I mean less than one percent of books ever sell a million dollars. That sold over two million and "Don't Worry, Retire Happy" has now sold over a million. So, it's kind of cool. I got two books in the top one percent of all books ever written, but it was I wrote it out of my heart, you know. It was really all the knowledge and all the words and language. Because I tell people this, people think this is a knowledge business. I've got news for them. This is not a knowledge business anymore. You give me an iPad and the internet for 15 minutes, I can figure out anything I need to figure out. This is not a words business. This is a language business. This is a questions business, and this is a stories business. And my books are full of words, language, questions, and stories that are powerful. I always tell people if you don't have your ... People say all the time you got the words, you got the questions, you got the stories. You can borrow the stories, borrow the words, borrow the ... that's what I did when I was brand new. I listened to audiobooks every single day. I watched tapes of the Kinder Brothers so I could close business the way the Kinder Brothers taught me how to close business. I can handle objections the way they taught me to handle rejections. And what I did was learn the words, language, questions, and stories of the top producers in this industry 30 years ago and those words, language, questions, and stories made me millions of dollars. And now I've got the words, language, questions, and stories for this retirement income market and people can make millions of dollars off of that, but they're worried about spending 35 bucks on an audiobook or something. It's crazy. You've got to invest ... and I'll tell you this. The best investment you'll ever make is not in stocks or bonds or bitcoin, the best investment you'll ever make is an investment in yourself. That will make you the most millions. Mark Miletello It's perfectly said. I believe that what you've said it's not that ... you look at my upbringing and my challenges and I had Richard Weylman on the show last week and the struggles that he came through. It's about finding your voice and telling a story. And like I said in a speech, I used several things that you've said from "If a dollar was a second, what would a trillion dollars mean?" And things like that. It's just stories and I held up the book and I said, "You have to learn these stories because you don't have to make them up." They've already ... someone's already paved that way and you learn from the Kinder Brothers. We all have learned and quoted from someone that has inspired us, so thank you for putting that together. You know, I've got some self-published books and maybe that's what I need to do, record myself speaking and quit trying to sit down and write everything out. That's some good advice. But you know what? I work with a young team, but even us veterans we've, keeping with the theme of football, we've all had fumbles; and so, looking back, do you ever think about some mistakes that you could avoid, or you would have avoided for these new agents that are. Tom Hegna Well, kind of my best advice for new people is activity. I say an app a day keeps depression away. Look, this is a business is where you go way up, and you go way down emotionally. You go out and you close a million-dollar sale and you're on top of the world, "Oh, man I just sold the biggest case I ever did." And then two days later you get a call, and he says "Well, I talked to my brother-in-law. He says it's stupid. Please cancel that." Or, the guy got declined, or he changed his mind, or whatever. And now you're down and the depths of depression, and then you write another case and you go up here and then something bad happens, and you go down here. So, what got me through the storms, because I went up and down terribly. My first, in my first year, was very hard, but what I found is the more activity I had, then I could weather it. See if I got 12 applications in, and I lose one no big deal. If I got one application in, and I lose one, that's a life-threatening event. So, I started trying to see three people a day and then once I started doing that I saw five people a day. And then I would see seven people every day, and if you're seeing five to seven people every day, I promise you, you'll get through it. An app away keeps depression away. I tried to write at least one app a day, and my record I think was 13 apps in one day and I routinely get five or six in a day, that was not uncommon at all. I never had a blank week my entire time as a producer. I'm kind of proud about that because it was drilled into me activity, activity, activity. And so, there are only three ways to increase your production. See the people. See the people. See the people. So, I would encourage new advisors, see people face to face every single day. Mark Miletello Well, we can dive more into that. That could be its own separate show, but the good news on this show is you get the repeat of a first down. You get a do-over, so you're starting over, Tom, you know how tough today is, you're starting over right now, how do you grow a successful practice? I think you've given us a lot of these nuggets already, but I'm just going to point blank ask you because this is what a new agent wants to hear. What do you hear today? Tom Hegna I think you've got to build your frontal as full as you can, and what I mean is that you've got to be on social media. You've got to be on Facebook. You've got to be on Twitter. You've got to be on LinkedIn. I guess Instagram for millennials and all these guys. But you've got to be on social media. You've got to network and get as many people into your funnel. I don't care how well you know them. Go to Chamber of Commerce, get everybody's business card, put them in your funnel, connect with everybody you can. Because what you want to do it early in your business now you want to get thousands of people in your funnel of social media and then you want to watch your social media because you can learn a lot about people. Oh, we got engaged. That'd be a perfect person to call. Oh, we just got married. Oh, my dad died. My mom died. We had a baby. All that's on social media. Well, those are all life events that people need to buy more life insurance and they need to roll their 401K or they need to do something, right? So now today we can know when all these things are happening. When I was an agent, we didn't know. We had to buy a baby list from the paper or something and we'd get it like six weeks later or something, or the obituary list and you got go through there and figure whose parents they are. I mean, really, seriously? Now you've got all these tools and then there are marketing people that I'm not the marketing guy, but there are marketing people that can help you do campaigns and do things to get more leads. And then I would encourage people to do seminar selling. It does work. It's not dead. People think it's dead. It's not dead. I do seminars every single day almost. And they fill the place with three, four, five hundred people. If you're giving great content, great content, people will come. The number one producer I work with is a guy down and Florida. He does about a million a month in commission, a million a month, okay? And he runs educational seminars, no food; he brings them in two or three a day, does two or three days a month, he brings in top speakers, he said all the money I used to spend on restaurants now I put into my speakers. And he just is known as the educational place for all these retirees and they bring their friends, their neighbors, their brothers, their sisters. There's no selling done at these seminars. They are just educational workshops. He brings me in. He brings in Mary Beth Franklin, and he brings Moshe Maleski in, and he just educates people in the community. And guess what, they do a lot of business on him. Mark Miletello I bet. Well, activity is the key, we all know that, and you're right. There are almost so many places to go to create an activity that one doesn't know where to go. I think sometimes they're just looking around at all the different places and they don't know which one to choose. But you said get out there, get involved, and everyone watches it, make contacts because one thing you and I know that it's about timing more important than anything. You can call me today and discuss an annuity and a year and a half from now might be the right time to discuss that annuity. So, in this industry what I've found is when I was born there wasn't a big sign at the hospital that said Welcome into the world, Mark Miletello, natural born insurance salesman or financial services agent. No one's born, you know, you practice, rehearse, study, and so whether you find yourself successful or not, I believe activity is the key and timing, as well, is the key and with social media, we can hit that timing a lot better than we did just culling obituaries. Tom Hegna It's a numbers game, right? So, you want to have lots of numbers in your circle. As many as you can, even if you don't know them well. Then it's a timing thing, and then you've got to have the skills. So, it's really three things. It's numbers, it's timing, and it's skilled. And so, if you have the skills if you have the words, the language, the questions, and the stories and you know somebody who's right for talking to and you have enough of those people every day you've got people to go see every day. Just stop by. Hey, I saw you had a baby. We have a bib in our office, and it's just, you know, give them something. We used to hand out road atlases. I don't know what you hand out anymore, but just something you could give them, or bring them a little present, bring them some chocolates. I don't know what but get in front of people who it's the right time to talk about things and build a relationship with them and then help them. Do what's in their best interest, and they'll refer people to you. Mark Miletello Wonderful. Well, Tom, it's the future. It's the year 2027. This is maybe one of the toughest questions I'm going to ask you because this is on the minds of all of us with everything going on around, but also technology the future. What will the industry look like in ten years and how do we fit in, how do we stay relevant? Tom Hegna Well, there's all kinds of people worried about that, and I know on the P&C side they're worried that amazon.com is going to have a little thing you just plug into the USB port and you drive from here to the store and it just charges 12 cents to your prime account for insurance. And then you drive across to California and it's $2.42 for insurance. That your insurance will charge you by the number of miles that you drive, and it will be automatic, and you won't have to worry about it. That's was the P&C people are worried about. I think for life insurance, annuities, and long-term care investments you know these robot advisors, yeah, that's fine, let's see how that all works when that market crashes 50 percent. At the end of the day, people need help from people. People trust people. And I think they're going to need a financial person to walk them through this. The average person doesn't spend enough time learning about this stuff and what they hear, they hear from Ken Fisher or Susie Orman or Dave Ramsey. People are giving them opinions, not facts. And that's why I say stick with Tommy. Tommy's got the facts, and the facts beat opinions 100 percent of the time. And so, if we can just present them mathematical, scientific, and economic facts these are irrefutable. These are not opinions. I can win every argument with Ken Fisher because he's dead wrong. You know when he says, "Oh, anything you can do with an annuity, you can do better elsewhere." That's a lie. You know what I'm going to do? This week, I'm going to write an open letter to the SEC, because what I think he is doing is almost criminal and he's leading people astray and for the SEC and [Senator 00:34:37 to allow that kind of stuff to happen ... I'm just going to write an open letter and I'm going to clearly expose him for what he's doing. He's not doing good things. So, I got math and science behind me. He's got his opinion. Let's see how that works for him when that market crashes 50 percent. Mark Miletello Well, what you're saying is, we can't predict what the next 10 years are going to be, but we can sure be prepared. We can be an advocate for our clients. So, thank you for protecting us, and doing those things. You're right. Some of it is ... I don't even know what to say about some of the things that I hear, but one thing that I keep going back to that's one of the most powerful things that I've read in your book, and that's, "I talk about facts." I'm going to use that if you don't mind. I'm going to steal that when I'm talking to clients is that you know let's not look at all the opinions out there, let's talk facts. Tom Hegna Facts win, every time. Mark Miletello That's right. So, look, I would like to keep you for hours on end. I know your time's valuable, and thank you for sharing with us. We've gotten so much already. I'd like to ask you a hundred more questions, but give us your professional recommendations. How do we get started following you? What steps do we take to find, maybe this is a two-pronged question, but how do we get started to find a voice like you have found? Is part of that following you? What can we do? Tom Hegna Well, look, I know you got some great training, and you said Van was one of your mentors. Van and I are good friends. We've done a lot of work together. Joe Jordan was one of my mentors, as were the Kinder Brothers, as were some of the top producers back in the day, the Ben. And now Mark Feldman has a great book, "Man on a Mission", all about life insurance. Great life insurance questions. But if people want to follow me, I'm at tomhegna.com. I'm easy to find. If you google my name a million things will pop up. I got free videos on YouTube they can sure watch. I've got a subscription service called Tom Hegna on Demand where I literally put my entire brain online, sorted by video clips, three to eight minutes. over ten hours sorted by life insurance, annuities, long-term care, questions, sales ideas, handling objections, social security, all that stuff. So, my entire brain is there available 24 hours day, seven days a week. And I say what if you spent 10 minutes a day there, 15 minutes a day, or what. How good would you be in three months or six months or nine months? There's also a coaching site where, let's say, they get to the appointment at ten minutes early. They get on the iPhone. They go to the coaching site, and a video of me pops up. I say, tell me about this appointment. Is your client single or married? They put single. How old is this person? She's 70. Once you hit those two buttons, a video of me pops up. Okay, so you're going to an appointment with a 70-year-old widow. Here's going to be her key questions. Here's how I would answer those. Here's going to be her objections. Here's how I would answer those. Here's the product you're going to want to use. Here are the questions you want to ask her. And I coach you for 5, 10 minutes before you go on your appointment. The next day you're going on an appointment with a 45-year-old couple. You hit married, 45, and I coach you totally different than I did for the 70-year-old widow. Now that's all available online. We've got package deals on our podcast. So just go to tomhegna.com. I'm easy to find. Mark Miletello Well, the financial investment is ridiculous. That's a no-brainer. What we must do, and what I've tried to teach and install in the ones that I mentor is the time investment. And it's not that much. It could be 5, 10 minutes. It could be a ride on an airplane. But we must take what you're handing us, and we got to pass it down to the next generation. We got to build upon that, so that's what this podcast is for, is to reach out. With all the noise out there, it's getting hard to find who's the real deal. And you are the real deal, and I'm going to continue to follow you. I appreciate the advice on man on a mission. I didn't know that one. I'll look that one up. I hope that everyone out there listening to this will immediately go to your website. You are one of the top one or two that I recommend following, as well as you mentioned, Gary Kinder, the Kinder Brothers, and Van Mueller as well. So, thank you for being a guest on the show, and thank you for all you do. Tom Hegna Thank you, Mark. Great being with you. Mark Miletello Absolutely, and you can follow me on markmiletello.com. If you like what you hear on the show, go to iTunes and rate and review, and you'll help others find us.    

Gary Kinder, noted legal writing instructor, founder of the editing software WordRake, and New York Times bestselling author of the true crime classic Victim: The Other Side of Murder, visits to share his thoughts on how attorneys can make their writing more compelling, concise, and effective

Gary Kinder knows only a tiny percentage of writers and artists succeed. Some say it’s as low as 1%. But he’s up at 5 a.m. every day writing his screenplay, before plunging into the editing software he’s upgrading. Asked why he does it, he replies, “I’m doing what I love!” Gary writes narrative nonfiction, and is the author of three books. He has taught over 1,000 writing programs to law firms, corporations, universities, and writers conferences. He is also creator and founder of WordRake, editing software, which is used widely in law firms, government agencies, corporations and universities.

Summary: Host Jules Miller talks with Gary Kinder, Founder and Creator of WordRake, about his revolutionary software for the legal industry. For the latest topics, trends and tech in the legal industry, subscribe to Evolve Law Podcast: A Catalyst for Legal Innovation. Listen as legal experts and leaders share insights about the legal industry. For more information, questions, or suggestions about our podcast feel free to email us at info@evolvelawnow.com   Links: Listener Gift: 15% discount on WorkRake Software   Show Notes: 00:00 Intro 00:25 Founder and creator of Wordrake 00:48 Gary’s experience in the industry 02:05 Wordrake editing software, on the market for 5 years 02:28 Why Gary is a legal tech expert 03:28 Why he cares about the legal-tech industry 06:10 What software you should be using today 07:19 Game-changing technology in the next 3-5 years. 09:03 Advice to lawyers who want to use technology 09:50 Start with legal-tech consultants 10:23 How to overcome slow moving legal industry- Talk to the IT people 11:55 ILTA: International Legal Technology Association 13:21 Advice to entrepreneurs right now 14:40 Final thoughts on future of legal industry 17:45 Listener gift

Vacillating in Vancouver has a dream to become a criminal defense attorney; he also has a dream of not regretting the pursuit of said dream. With an aptitude for reading, […]

Does quality writing really make you a better lawyer? On this episode of The Digital Edge, hosts Sharon Nelson and Jim Calloway discuss legal writing with Gary Kinder, founder of the editing program WordRake. Together, they explore lawyers' biggest writing errors, why this is important in the courtroom, and how writing well can help build a positive reputation for a firm. In their conclusion of the episode, they shift the focus to WordRake itself, expanding on what it is, the cost, and why it's effective. They even include a treat especially for Digital Edge listeners. Gary Kinder founded the software company WordRake in 2012. The company's eponymous software is an automated editing program that suggests changes to improve brevity and clarity. Special thanks to our sponsors, ServeNow, Scorpion, and Answer1.

Gary Kinder, New York Times Bestselling author, and creator and founder of WordRake, the only software in the world that edits text for clarity and brevity, shares insights on how to improve writing skills throughout your organization. Find out how you and your team can communicate more effectively, enhance your reputation, and increase the value of your brand.

I spoke with Gary Kinder, a lawyer and the New York Times bestselling author of Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea: The History and Discovery of the World’s Richest Shipwreck. Kinder is the founder and creator of WordRake, an editing software program that he reports is being used by thousands of law firms, universities, and organizations to help individuals write clearly and concisely. We discussed the genesis of WordRake, which he highlighted is “designed to get rid of words that convey no meaning.” He suggests that writers delete phrases like “in this case” and “the terms of the contract.” In addition, look for the words in or of and reduce words around them that force readers to slow down. In a legal market that values efficiency, writers need to make their points faster. Since everyone needs an editor, Kinder created WordRake to fill that void. He offers a variety of writing tips on his blog – WritetothePoint.com – and WordRake offers a 3-day free trial.

I spoke with Gary Kinder, a lawyer and the New York Times bestselling author of Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea: The History and Discovery of the World’s Richest Shipwreck. Kinder is the founder and creator of WordRake, an editing software program that he reports is being used by thousands of law firms, universities, and organizations to help individuals write clearly and concisely. We discussed the genesis of WordRake, which he highlighted is “designed to get rid of words that convey no meaning.” He suggests that writers delete phrases like “in this case” and “the terms of the contract.” In addition, look for the words in or of and reduce words around them that force readers to slow down. In a legal market that values efficiency, writers need to make their points faster. Since everyone needs an editor, Kinder created WordRake to fill that void. He offers a variety of writing tips on his blog – WritetothePoint.com – and WordRake offers a 3-day free trial.

I spoke with Gary Kinder, a lawyer and the New York Times bestselling author of Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea: The History and Discovery of the World’s Richest Shipwreck. Kinder is the founder and creator of WordRake, an editing software program that he reports is being used by thousands of law firms, universities, and organizations to help individuals write clearly and concisely. We discussed the genesis of WordRake, which he highlighted is “designed to get rid of words that convey no meaning.” He suggests that writers delete phrases like “in this case” and “the terms of the contract.” In addition, look for the words in or of and reduce words around them that force readers to slow down. In a legal market that values efficiency, writers need to make their points faster. Since everyone needs an editor, Kinder created WordRake to fill that void. He offers a variety of writing tips on his blog – WritetothePoint.com – and WordRake offers a 3-day free trial.

I spoke with Gary Kinder, a lawyer and the New York Times bestselling author of Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea: The History and Discovery of the World's Richest Shipwreck. Kinder is the founder and creator of WordRake, an editing software program that he reports is being used by thousands of law firms, universities, and organizations to help individuals write clearly and concisely. We discussed the genesis of WordRake, which he highlighted is “designed to get rid of words that convey no meaning.” He suggests that writers delete phrases like “in this case” and “the terms of the contract.” In addition, look for the words in or of and reduce words around them that force readers to slow down. In a legal market that values efficiency, writers need to make their points faster. Since everyone needs an editor, Kinder created WordRake to fill that void. He offers a variety of writing tips on his blog – WritetothePoint.com – and WordRake offers a 3-day free trial.

Fine tuned writing skills are pivotal to a firm's success. They affect first impressions through websites, newsletters, client leads, emails or network listings, client representation, legal write ups, and the list goes on. On this edition of The Paralegal Voice, host and paralegal mentor, Vicki Voisin will speak with noted legal writing educator Gary Kinder to discuss how paralegals can improve their writing skills. Kinder is a lawyer and New York Times bestselling author. He has taught over 1,000 writing programs to prestigious law firms nationwide. His career is dedicated to teaching legal professionals how to write precisely, vividly, concisely and memorably. Kinder channeled years of experience studying superior legal writing and editing into the creation of WordRake, a software designed to help law firms and organizations tighten their prose and become better writers. He also authors a weekly writing tips blog called WriteToThePoint.com. Tune in to learn more about the importance of Paralegals' writing skills, the basics of the Plain Writing Act of 2010 and how it affects paralegals, how to avoid common mistakes, and more. Special thanks to our sponsor, National Association of Legal Assistants (NALA).