Better Off Dead

Victoria’s Voluntary Assisted Dying law came into effect in June 2019. The first of its kind in Australia and touted as the most conservative in the world, the passing of Victoria’s law was a watershed moment for end-of-life care in this country. More than eighteen months on, in April 2021, what effect is this law having on end-of-life care for terminally ill Victorians? Is the law working as planned? And is there room for improvement? The final episode of Better Off Dead season two centres on a recording of the Wheeler Centre’s Last Words: Voluntary Assisted Dying panel discussion. Previously broadcast on Radio National’s Big Ideas programme, it features a panel discussion on voluntary assisted dying hosted by Paul Barclay. Panelists include Andrew Denton, founder of Go Gentle Australia and host of the Better Off Dead podcast; Justice Betty King QC, Chair of the Voluntary Assisted Dying Review Board; Professor Phillip Parente, oncologist; and Ron Poole, a terminally ill Shepparton man who has chosen to access the voluntary assisted dying life-ending medication. Our special thanks to Ron Poole, who generously took time out of the precious final days of his life to share his perspective on voluntary assisted dying. Ron died on 26 April, less than a week after this panel discussion took place. Our thoughts are with his loved ones.   "People come to this often – late. And they come late because they really haven’t known about it, haven’t been told about it or are in a situation where they don’t want to face mortality." Justice Betty King Know more Visit Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Audio: Legalising Voluntary Assisted Dying -- Radio National’s Big Ideas programme, part of Caxton Legal Centre's 'Justice in Focus' series. Presented in conjunction with QUT. Recorded on 21 February 2019 Visit: Voluntary Assisted Dying -- Victorian Health official website In order of appearance: Paul Barclay, Ron Poole, Andrew Denton, Phillip Parente, Betty King Better Off Dead season two is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia.  Learn more about Go Gentle Australia’s work.  Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre)Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)  Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Page and transcript: Alice Boyle (The Wheeler Centre) Episode Artwork: Megan Herbert                                                                                                               Commissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre) Theme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan Laser Listen to Better Off Dead season one here, and subscribe in iTunes, or follow via your favourite podcast app. #BetterOffDeadpod Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – or if you’ve had an experience with Voluntary Assisted Dying, we would love to hear from you. Tell your story here. Transcript Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format. 

When Victoria’s VAD law was passed in 2017, it was touted by Premier Daniel Andrews as ‘the most conservative in the world’. This was true. Its 68 safeguards made it a far more daunting law for terminally ill people to access than similar laws in other countries.  But was it too daunting?  Much was said in parliament by opponents about the law’s ‘unintended consequences’. What if there are wrongful deaths? What if the doctor-patient relationship is damaged? Palliative care diminished? None of these fears have turned out to be true. But that doesn’t mean there have been no unintended consequences. They’ve just turned out to be not as opponents argued. In this episode, we hear from the families of two eligible Victorians who struggled to access VAD. And we hear something never heard before —-- a father and daughter as they actually go through the process of applying for a VAD permit, a process during which initial gratitude quickly turns to frustration, fear and anger. Allan Cornell and his daughter Kristin: photo Supplied “She wrote numerous letters and made numerous phone calls to, it seemed like, 30 neurologists, but nobody would do it. And Helen's doctor said ,’I think this is gonna be a race between us getting the approval for the VAD and you dying’” Reg Jebb Helen and Reg Jebb. photo: Supplied “He was dying. He was suffering. He was begging, begging me the entire day to finish it. Where are they? Kristin? Where are they? Where are they?” Kristin Cornell Kristin Cornell: “I am so encouraged by the existence of this legislation – but there is more we can do. We can do this better. It shouldn’t be so hard that one is tempted to give up.” Photo: Juliet Lamont Embed player Listen Episode Extra: Doctors Discuss the Unintended Consequences of Victoria's VAD Law Know more Visit Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Article: ‘Assisted dying is not the easy way out’ — The Conversation, 19 Feb 2020 Article: ‘Without more detail, it’s premature to say voluntary assisted dying laws in Victoria are ‘working well’’ — The Conversation, 21 Feb 2020 Article: ‘Heartachingly painful: Allan waited for 100 days before being granted permit to die’ — The Age, 21 June 2020 In this episode In order of appearance: Kristin Cornell, Allan Cornell, Reg Jebb, Betty King, Greg Mewitt, Nola Maxfield, Andrea Bendrups and Nick Carr Better Off Dead season two is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia. Learn more about Go Gentle Australia’s work. Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta, with assistance from Adam RothwellProduction Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre)Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)  Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre) Episode Artwork: Megan HerbertTranscript: Alice BoyleCommissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre) Theme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan LaserMusic: James Domeyko Special thanks to our interviewees Kristin Cornell and Reg Jebb for their time for this episode. Footage supplied courtesy of Seven Network. All rights reserved. © Listen to Better Off Dead season one here, and subscribe in iTunes, or follow via your favourite podcast app. #BetterOffDeadpod Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – or if you’ve had an experience with Voluntary Assisted Dying, we would love to hear from you. Tell your story here. Transcript Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format. 

Whether it is through the words of the pope, his representatives the bishops and archbishops, or its surrogates in the medical profession, the Catholic Church remains the most determined force against voluntary assisted dying in Australia. In 2020, The Vatican released its latest encyclical on assisted dying and euthanasia. They called it Samaritanus Bonus – the Good Samaritan – and this is what it had to say about people who seek assistance to die. “Experience confirms that the pleas of gravely ill people who sometimes ask for death are not to be understood as implying a true desire for euthanasia; in fact, it is almost always a case of an anguished plea for help and love.” Requests for assistance to die are ‘not to be understood as a true desire for euthanasia.’ In other words, the people making them are somehow misguided. According to this narrative, people making such requests are likely to be demoralised; lonely; abandoned, feeling like a burden; or struggling to find meaning in – or even giving up on - their lives. And that, with the right kind of love and care, these things can be addressed. In this episode, we hear from some of the most senior figures in Australian palliative care. We also hear from others who have a different understanding of such requests, and who believe that the people who make them can be both considered and rational. Professor Michael Ashby Photo: Supplied Palliative care clinician Molly Carlile AM: “It has to be about why are we doing this. Who is it for? If it's about us, we have to ask: how does our view on a whole lot of things influence our practice?” photo: Supplied   “It is not the role of any healthcare team to suggest that its ministrations can give meaning, purpose and dignity to a dying person’s remaining life if that person feels that these are irretrievably lost... Palliative care is a model of care, not a moral crusade.” Professor Michael Ashby Know more Visit: Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Video: Assad, Assisted Dying and Satire – ABC TV Q&A, 10 April 2017 Video: Q&A with the Archbishop - How do I explain the Catholic Church's teaching on euthanasia? – The Catholic Leader YouTube, 14 July 2014 Video: Experienced Victorian doctors warn Tasmania on dangerous bill – Australian Care Alliance, 9 September 2020 Video: Prof David Kissane: Euthanasia is terrible for medicine & society  – Life, Marriage and Family Office 23 June, 2017 Article: Defending the indefensible? Psychiatry, assisted suicide and human freedom – Profesor Malcolm Parker, International Journal of Law and Psychiatry, Volume 36, issues 5-6 2013 In this episode (in order of appearance) Ron Fellows, Margaret Somerville, Patricia Fellows, Megan Best, Mark Coleridge, Jean Caliste, Jacqui Hicks, Nicole Robertson, Deb M, Katie Harley, Kristin Cornell, Peter Jones, Ron Poole, Fiona McClure, Phillip Parente, Peter Lange, Betty King, Michael Dooley, Anthony Fisher, Stephen Parnis, Michael Ashby, Natasha Michael, David Kissane, Malcolm Parker, Roger Hunt, Molly Carlile, Greg Mewett, Shayne Higson, Alex Broom, Kit Denton, Peter Abetz,  Credits Better Off Dead season two is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia  Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta, with assistance from Adam Rothwell Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre)Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)  Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre) Episode Artwork: Megan HerbertTranscript: Alice BoyleCommissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre)Theme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan LaserMusic: Simon Kindt, Aaron Gleeson, and Joe Lodge Special thanks to our interviewees Michael Ashby, Roger Hunt, Malcolm Parker and Molly Carlile for their time for this episode.Footage supplied courtesy of Seven Network. All rights reserved. © Listen to Better Off Dead season one here, and subscribe in iTunes, or follow via your favourite podcast app. #BetterOffDeadpod Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – or if you’ve had an experience with voluntary assisted dying, we would love to hear from you. Tell your story here. Transcript Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format. 

The assisted dying debate in Australia has revealed two parallel universes. The conservative Christian universe, which believes our lives belong to God; that whatever happens at the end of life is part of His plan. And the other universe – embracing 75% of Australians (including a majority of Christians) – with a shared belief we should have some control over how we die. Two different, but both entirely sincere, belief systems. What happens when these parallel universes intersect? What can it mean to die in a system where you are disempowered, and whose values you don’t share? Dame Cicely Saunders Photo: Wikimedia Commons Shayne Higson (second left), pictured with her sisters and their mother Jan (farthest right) who died of brain cancer: 'I thought that [with] terminal sedation … there would be no suffering, but that's not right' — Photo: supplied “What people don't realise is that they're entering an environment with particular values, and a history about what is okay, or not okay, and the nature of suffering. And by entering into that the patient and the family is almost embarking on an unwritten contract – that death will be not on my terms, but on the terms of the institution” Professor Alex Broom Know more Visit Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Article: We do not like to talk about death -- but that doesn’t make euthanasia the answer -- Richard Chye, The Sydney Morning Herald, 14 November, 2017 Article: Assisted dying: My mother had the best palliative care -- and even that was not enough -- Shayne Higson, The Sydney Morning Herald, 15 November, 2017 Audio: Fearfully and Wonderfully Made (part 1) -- Megan Best, The Centre for Public Christianity, 24 June, 2013 Film: ‘The Broken Hearted’ Go Gentle Australia, August 2019 Jan K: 'You might think you're going to have great palliative care, but it is an absolute lottery. You can scream the place down if you want but, if they think that you're comfortable, that's it.' Photo: Joshua Raymond In this episode In order of appearance:  Katie Harley, Megan Best, Alex Broom, Richard Chye, Shayne Higson, Roger Hunt, Jan K. Credits Better Off Dead season two is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia  Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre) Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)  Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre) Commissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre) Episode Artwork: Megan HerbertTranscript: Alice BoyleTheme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan LaserMusic: Aaron Gleeson Special thanks to our interviewees Shayne Higson, Alex Broom, Roger Hunt and Jan K for their time for this episode.Footage supplied courtesy of Seven Network. All rights reserved. © Listen to Better Off Dead season one here, and subscribe in iTunes, or follow via your favourite podcast app. #BetterOffDeadpod Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – or if you’ve had an experience with Voluntary Assisted Dying, we would love to hear from you. Tell your story here. Transcript Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format. 

At the heart of the political debate around voluntary assisted dying lies palliative care. On one side sits the argument that it can effectively deal with all pain and suffering, and that it should be made available to everyone before Assisted Dying is made legal. On the other, a recognition that – for all its benefits – palliative care cannot help everyone, and that those beyond its help should not be left to suffer, or – as some do – take their own lives. But beyond the political debate, within palliative care lies a much deeper argument. One about values. Palliative care’s background is as a provider of Christian care; more than half of Australia’s palliative care is supplied by The Catholic Church. According to The Vatican, assisting someone to die is ‘intrinsically evil.’ By papal decree, any request by a person for help to end their life is not to be taken as genuine, but is to be understood instead as ‘an anguished plea for help and love.’ But some palliative care clinicians have a different set of values. They see that their primary purpose is to act in response to what their patient wants and needs.  It’s called person-centred care, a way of practising medicine that has been thrown into the sharpest focus imaginable by a law allowing doctors to help their patients to die. Palliative care clinician, and death and dying expert Molly Carlile AM. Photo: supplied   ‘The bottom line for me is, you can choose whether you want to stop having chemo or anything else that you consider as futile treatment. And we are the defenders of those people. So how can we say, in the same breath, “Yes, you can make your choices, so long as it's not voluntary assisted dying?”’ Palliative care clinician, Molly Carlile AM For more Visit Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Video: Clive Deverall talk Freedom of Choice WA Launch – YouTube, 5 February 2017 Article: Everyone Has the Right to Die Well – Molly Carlile, November 10, 2015 Brochure: To Love to the End – Life, Marriage and Family Office, The Catholic Archdiocese of Melbourne, 2011 Dr Greg Mewett. ‘It's not for me to say how much someone's suffering and whether we can do more. It should be up to the individual.’ Photo: Juliet Lamont In this episode In order of appearance Jaala Pulford, Molly Carlile, Greg Mewett, Michael Ashby, Roger Hunt, Andrew Sloane, Anthony Fisher, Megan Best, John Flader, Tim Harris, Natasha Michael, Stephen Parnis, Jane Morris, Clive Deverall, Lisa Hogg, Alex Broom, Jan Kelly Credits Better Off Dead season two is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta, with assistance from Adam Rothwell Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre)Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)  Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre) Episode Artwork: Megan HerbertTranscript: Alice BoyleCommissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre)Theme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan LaserMusic: Jon Murphy, Brendan John Warner, Simon Kindt, Aaron Gleeson Special thanks to our interviewees Molly Carlile, Greg Mewett, Michael Ashby and Roger Hunt for their time for this episode. Footage supplied courtesy of Seven Network. All rights reserved. © Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – or if you’ve had an experience with Voluntary Assisted Dying, we would love to hear from you. Tell your story here. Subscribe via iTunes or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Transcript  Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format. 

In September 2020, as Tasmania’s Upper House prepared to debate an Assisted Dying bill, an article appeared on the online publication Mercatornet. Above a picture showing a graph of a flatlining heartbeat superimposed over an elderly hand was a headline in big, bold letters: ‘Grandma took her life yesterday. Her doctors helped her.’ The article described a lonely, elderly woman, seemingly abandoned by her family in a Melbourne nursing home during COVID, encouraged by her doctors to end her life using Victoria’s Assisted Dying law. Photo: the image used by Mercatornet Within days, it was being promoted by religious groups and The Australian Family Association as a warning to MPs about why they should vote down the Tasmanian bill.  In this episode, we reveal the truth behind that story. Who was Grandma? Had her family really abandoned her? Was her decision to die her own, or was she encouraged?   And what was it that connected the crusading author and the website that gave her story a global platform? ‘Just to get out of bed, you could tell she was in pain... she was really struggling. My brother said, ‘God, if Mum could have that medicine tomorrow, she would take it.’ Everybody was understanding because we all knew what she'd been through and didn't want her to go through that again. ‘Ruth’s’ daughter ‘Jane’ For more Visit Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Audio: Neil Mitchell clashes with former Catholic priest over protest outside Peter Mac Cancer Centre – 3AW Newstalk, 11 April 2019 Video: Fatal Fraud: A case study of tactics employed against evidence-based public policy initiatives – Go Gentle Australia, August 2019 Article: Code of Ethical Standards for Catholic Health and Aged Care Service in Australia – Catholic Health Australia, June 2001 Medical and Biblical Response to Euthanasia -- Dr Megan Best and Dr Andrew Sloane – Christian Medical and Dental fellowship of Australia, 2019 In this episode  In order of appearance:  Neil Mitchell, Eugene Ahern, ‘Bronwyn’, ‘Jane’, Tom Kenyon, Helen Lord, Leon Compton, Megan Best, Andrew Sloane, Tom Keneally, Stephen Parnis, Roger Hunt, Greg Mewett, Molly Carlile Credits Better Off Dead season two is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia  Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta, with assistance from Adam Rothwell Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre)Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)  Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre) Episode Artwork: Megan HerbertTranscript: Alice BoyleCommissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre)Theme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’ written and performed by Jordan LaserMusic: Brendan John Warner, James Domeyko, Simon Kindt, Michael Cusack Special thanks to interviewees ‘Jane’ and her family and Thomas Keneally for their time for this episode. Footage supplied courtesy of Seven Network. All rights reserved. © Listen to Better Off Dead season one here, subscribe in iTunes, or via your favourite podcast app. #BetterOffDeadpod Your Stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – or if you’ve had an experience with Voluntary Assisted Dying, we would love to hear from you. Tell your story here. Transcript Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format. 

The key word in Victoria’s voluntary assisted dying law is the first one: ‘voluntary’. By law, any doctor, nurse, or other health professional who conscientiously objects can choose not to participate in a person’s request for voluntary assisted dying. But how does an institution balance its employees legal right to conscientiously object with its obligation to care for its patients? Colin M, champion swimmer. “They were just playing in the waves. And he got dumped in one of those freak accidents and he knew straight away that he'd had a catastrophic injury.” -- Photo: Supplied In this episode, we meet Colin, a former champion swimmer and  professor of philosophy who is dying and who has applied for the legal right to end his own life. Colin lives by the ancient Roman philosophy of Stoicism. This is what the Stoic Marcus Aurelius had to say about death: ‘Accept death in a cheerful spirit, as nothing but the dissolution of the elements from which each living thing is composed’. For a Stoic, it is good to “choose to die well while you can”. Colin is living in a Catholic nursing home. They have a very different philosophy about death and dying. To a staunch Catholic, choosing to end your life early is to “to take the place of God in deciding the moment of death”. What happens when these two ancient philosophies meet in one Melbourne nursing home? And when does ‘conscientious objection’ become ‘conscientious obstruction’? Sister Debra, niece Gabrielle, and nephew Elliot with Colin. “One of the most honourable people I think I've ever met.”-- Photo: Supplied “I don't understand how people can think that that's a good or an ethical thing to do to someone, like physically and emotionally to put people through that suffering” Colin’s sister, Debra Stoic Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius: ““Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one” -- Photo: Shutterstock For more Visit Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Letter to Mercy Health, Go Gentle Australia, 15 January 2021 Response from Mercy Health, 7 February 2021 Article: ‘George Pell, Our Man in Rome’, – The Good Weekend Magazine, 26 February 2019 Article: ‘Stoicism in a time of pandemic: how Marcus Aurelius can help’ – The Guardian 25 April 2020 In this episode (in order of appearance):Deb M, Andrea Bendrups, Elliot D, John Stanton, Mark Coleridge, Peter Lange Credits Better Off Dead is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia. Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta, with assistance from Adam Rothwell Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre)Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)  Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre) Episode Artwork: Megan HerbertCommissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre)Theme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan LaserMusic: James Domeyko, Aaron Gleeson  Special thanks to the family and medical carers of Colin M for their time for this episode. Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – or if you’ve had an experience with Voluntary Assisted Dying, we would love to hear from you. Tell your story here. Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Transcript  Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format.

There are many firsts in Betty King’s life. First female prosecutor for the state of Victoria. First female prosecutor for the Commonwealth of Australia. First female silk in Victoria. Now another – first Chair of Victoria’s Voluntary Assisted Dying Review Board. Reporting to parliament, the Board oversees the processes of the law with its 68 safeguards, ensuring that doctors adhere to the rules, and that the people seeking assistance to die are competent and not being coerced. Of all the doubts raised by MPs in the parliamentary debate about assisted dying, none was more frequent than the fear that a vulnerable person may be coerced to their death by heartless relatives through the VAD law.  In this episode, we meet Betty – the “Guardian of the Safeguards’ – as well as doctors, palliative care physicians, pharmacists, VAD Care Navigators, and families of those who have been through the process to find out whether any of those fears have turned out to be true. And we discover there is another, unwritten safeguard:  To take this path, you have to have enormous courage. The Hon. Betty King QC, Chair of the Voluntary Assisted Dying Review Board speaking on the panel at the Wheeler Centre's Last Words: Voluntary Assisted Dying event - Photo: Tiffany Garvie   “It's not an easy process. But neither it should be. This is the ending of a life. And it ought to be treated in a serious manner. Because it's a serious thing to do.” Betty King Know More Visit Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Article: ‘Interview with Justice Betty King’ Young Lawyers Journal, Law Institute of Victoria, 2010 Article: ‘King’s court: A one-off judge calls time’ – The Age, 9 July 2015 Article and interview: ‘Twelve months of voluntary assisted dying in Victoria’ – The Conversation Hour, ABC Radio National, 15 June 2020 Article: 'We're on the right side of history': Victoria’s assisted dying laws come into effect for terminally ill – The Age, 19 June 2019 In this episode (in order of appearance): Betty King, Stephen Parnis, John Daffy, John Stanton, Nola Maxfield, David Speakman, Susan D, Melanie D, Katie Harley, Andrea Bendrups, Greg Mewett, Nick Carr, Phillip Parente, Cameron McLaren, Peter Lange, Kristin Cornell, Lisa Hogg, Reg Jebb, Jean Caliste, Nicole Robertson, Jon Faine, Jacqui Hicks, Michael Dooley, Molly Carlile Credits Better Off Dead is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia. Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta, with assistance from Adam Rothwell Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre)Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)  Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre) Episode Artwork: Megan HerbertCommissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre)Theme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan LaserMusic: Aaron Gleeson, Martin Peralta Special thanks to our interviewee Betty King for her time for this episode. Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – or if you’ve had an experience with Voluntary Assisted Dying, we would love to hear from you. Tell your story here. Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Transcript Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format.

Imagine turning up to work one day to discover flyers outside your office accusing you of being a ‘death peddler’ and an ‘Uber service for poison’. Professor Michael Dooley runs Victoria’s Statewide Pharmacy Service. When voluntary assisted dying became legal it was his job, and that of his team, to come up with medication that would effectively and painlessly end a terminally ill person’s life - and also a way to safely get it to them. Statewide pharmacists Prof Michael Dooley (right) and David Seymour. “We've told them very, very clearly that if they take that medication, it will kill them. Saying that the first time to someone sitting two feet in front of you is probably the hardest part.” - Photo: Juliet Lamont Michael and his team are the last step – and the final safeguard – in the long legal process a dying person has to go through to access the medication. What is it like to walk into someone’s home to give them a draught designed to end their life? Who do they meet and what do they hear? And what happens if, at this very last step, they have to tell someone, ‘I’m sorry, but no.’? “We find leaving very, very difficult. Because you have to say goodbye... and we've all talked about how we do it… And there's no easy way and we all have our own little way. You know, it's not a normal goodbye.” Professor Michael Dooley Nicole Robertson and Jacqui Hicks, with a photo of their mum Kerry Roberston. - Photo: Kristian Silva, ABC Melbourne The Locked Box. - Photo: Supplied Know More Visit Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Article: ‘Lethal medication sourced for Victoria’s voluntary euthanasia scheme’ – The Age, 4 January 2019 Article: ‘Bendigo woman becomes first to use Victoria's Voluntary Assisted Dying law’ -- Go Gentle Australia, 4 August 2019 Audio: ‘Daughters' emotional tribute to Kerry Robertson, Victoria's first person to use voluntary euthanasia laws’ – ABC Melbourne Mornings with Jon Faine, 5 August 2019 Article: ‘Voluntary euthanasia to begin in Victoria as assisted dying laws take effect this week’ – ABC News, 16 June 2019 In this episode (in order of appearance): Kristin Cornell, Michael Dooley, Nicole Robertson, Debra M, Kristin Cornell, Jacqui Hicks, Jon Faine, Jean Caliste, Katie Harley, Liz Le Noble, Jason McKey Credits Better Off Dead is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia.Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta, with assistance from Adam Rothwell Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre) Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media)Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre)Episode Artwork: Megan HerbertCommissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre)Music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan LaserMusic: Jon Murphy, Aaron Gleeson, Brendon John Warner, Simon Kindt Special thanks to our interviewee Michael Dooley for his time for this episode. Footage supplied courtesy of Seven Network. All rights reserved. © Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – or if you’ve had an experience with Voluntary Assisted Dying, we would love to hear from you.  Tell your story here. Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Transcript Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format. 

So much was said during Victoria’s parliamentary debate about the people who would choose voluntary assisted dying, were it to be made legal. That they could not possibly know their own minds. “I do not believe that an individual who is facing such enormous pressure and stress is capable of making a decision to end their own life.” Nat Suleyman, MP That the burden of possessing life-ending medication would be too much for them. “If I was in that situation, I would probably think about it every hour — ‘Will I take it now? Will I take it tomorrow? Will I take it after I’ve watched my favourite TV show?” Luke O’Sullivan, MLC That they would be pushed into ending their lives by hard-hearted relatives. “Sometimes the relatives might … be wanting to encourage the person to take their medicine — take their poison, I should say.” Neil Angus, MP Or that they should never even need to make such a choice, because palliative care could alleviate all their pain and suffering. “Advances in palliative care medicine have been prodigious, to the point where well-managed cases under best practice palliative care can eliminate physical pain and discomfort.” Robert Clark, MP Why don’t we just let these people speak for themselves? Meet Ron Poole, Fiona McClure, and Peter Jones, three Victorians from very different backgrounds in the final stages of a terminal illness and facing potentially brutal deaths. Ron Poole, 77 and his beloved dog Bobby. “ The thing that got me was people saying how brave I am! I’m not being brave. Bravery doesn’t come into it. ” - Photo: Juliet Lamont Peter ‘Frankie’ Jones. “My daughter’s going to lose someone she loves very much, as I am. That’s my biggest fear...” - Photo: Juliet Lamont Each has exhausted treatment options and been offered expert palliative care. Each has chosen to complete the VAD assessment and has in their possession life-ending medication that they can choose to take – or not – when the time is right. Buoyed by the peace of mind of knowing they have an option to end their suffering if it becomes too great, all are determined to live what remains of their life to the full and say their goodbyes in the best way they know how. Fiona McClure, 67 and her partner Wim Wansink: “I've been very impressed with the whole process. Everyone has been kind, knowledgeable, respectful, able to discuss the options. There was no sense of urgency.” - Photo: Juliet Lamont “I'd like to go out in a pretty dress with a pretty pink lipstick, and having just had a latte with a girlfriend. And I’m still looking forward to that glass of champagne after I take the draught. French champagne.” Fiona McClure, metastatic stomach cancer Know More Visit Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Website: Doctors For Assisted Dying Choice, respecting rational patient end-of-life choices Article: ‘Reasons for Requesting Physician-Assisted Suicide’ -- Angela Morrow RN, VeryWellhealth, 23 March 2020 E-book: ‘Beyond Pain: Why more resources for palliative care alone will not address the need for Voluntary Assisted Dying’ - Go Gentle Australia, Nov 2019 In this episode (in order of appearance): Ron Poole,  Fiona McClure, Wim Wansink, Peter Jones   Better Off Dead season two is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia  Learn more about  Go Gentle Australia’s work Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre)Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)  Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre) Episode Transcript: Alice Boyle Commissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre)Theme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan LaserEpisode Artwork: Megan Herbert Music: James Domeyko, Aaron Gleeson, Alex Gow, Martin Peralta Special thanks to our interviewees Ron Poole, Fiona McClure, Wim Wansink and Peter Jones for giving up their precious time for these interviews. Since recording this episode, Peter and Ron have died. Our thoughts are with their loved ones. Listen to Better Off Dead season one here, and subscribe in iTunes, or follow via your favourite podcast app. #BetterOffDeadpod Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Transcript Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format. 

No group has done more to persuade politicians to oppose assisted dying in Australia over the last 20 years than doctors. Citing their Hippocratic Oath to ‘do no harm’, they argue that giving doctors the right to ‘kill’, instead of cure, will forever damage the doctor-patient relationship.  What they fight so fiercely to preserve is a world strongly influenced by Christian concepts of care, one where ‘doctor knows best’, even when it comes to the end of a person’s life. Not all doctors feel this way. In this episode, we meet a number of physicians from very different backgrounds, who think the old paternalism is not always what’s best for their patients. Dr Cameron McLaren - Photo: Juliet Lamont Dr Nick Carr - “I remember how powerful it was ... I just held her hand and I kissed her forehead and said goodbye, because it just felt right.” - Photo: Supplied Each came to voluntary assisted dying through different paths, but from similar clinical experiences: the undeniable reality that there are some people at the end of life for whom medicine, however skilfully applied, can do no more. Far from being damaged by facilitating assistance to die, the relationships they have formed with their patients along the way have been among the most profound of their careers.     “I thought we were all going to do it. I think that was very naive in retrospect. When the legislation came out I thought ... you know, patients wanted this, that’s the reason it’s put in. We look after patients, we practise patient-centred care, which means we should be providing the services that they want. ” Dr Cameron McLaren Further reading Visit Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Website: Doctors For Assisted Dying Choice, respecting rational patient end-of-life choices Article: ‘Is the Hippocratic oath still relevant to practising doctors today?’ — The BMJ, 14 December 2016 Viewpoint: ‘The Revised Declaration of Geneva: A Modern-Day Physician’s Pledge’ — The JAMA Network, 28 November 2017 Article: ‘The inescapable truth: palliative care is not enough—we can and should legislate for assisted dying’ — Dr Arun Bhaskar, The BMJ Opinion, 25 September 2019 Dr Nola Maxfield. “I think it's improved the relationship I've had with my patients.” - Photo: Supplied Dr Phillip Parente. “Views that doctors are overstepping the mark are incorrect. We're allowing patients to take control.” - Photo: Juliet Lamont In this episode In order of appearance: Mark Yates, Nick Carr, Cameron McLaren, Nola Maxfield, Peter Lange, Phillip Parente, Lisa Hogg, Odette Spruijt, Helen Lord, Lisa Hogg, David Speakman, Katie Harley Better Off Dead season two is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia  Learn more about Go Gentle Australia’s work Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre) Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)  Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre)Episode Transcript: Alice Boyle  Commissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre) Theme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan LaserMusic: Anthurium and Brendon John WarnerEpisode artwork: Megan Herbert Special thanks to our interviewees Cameron McLaren, Nick Carr, Greg Mewett, Andrea Bendrups, Peter Lange, David Speakman  and Phillip Parente for their time for this episode. Listen to Better Off Dead season one here, and subscribe in iTunes, or follow via your favourite podcast app. #BetterOffDeadpod Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Transcript Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format. 

“Thou shalt not kill” - The Sixth Commandment Victoria’s Voluntary Assisted Dying law was written to allow an eligible, terminally ill patient to drink a lethal medication to end their suffering; choosing to drink being considered the ultimate voluntary act. But the law allows, in exceptional circumstances, for a doctor to intravenously administer that medication to end their patient’s life. Who would need such a thing? And what impact does it have on a doctor when they are asked to transgress the age-old commandment ‘thou shalt not kill’? Katie Harley and her father ‘Lucky’ Phil Ferrarotto. “It was like Dad designed … those last few moments and it was exactly the way he wanted it.” - Photo: Supplied In this episode, we meet oncologist Cam McLaren, who is faced with the question, “Am I capable of ending my patient’s life?” And we meet Katie Harley. Her father Phil – Cam’s patient – has had so many forms of cancer, he’s like a gothic version of the Cheshire Cat – more and more of him removed till just about all that’s left is his smile.  But smile he still does. Because, despite everything, Katie's dad calls himself ‘Lucky Phil’.    “Till the day I die, it'll be the most courageous thing I've ever seen anyone do. To look a man in the eye and to know that he's about to end your life and then to write him a letter and say thank you, that's courage beyond measure.” Katie Harley, Phil’s daughter Katie and Dr Cameron McLaren. “Something incredible happened between Dad and Cam. They built up a fabulous rapport.” - Photo: Juliet Lamont Further reading Visit Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Article: 'It was kindness and it was a mercy: The doctor helping people to die’– The Age, 26 December 2019 Video and article: ‘Victoria’s euthanasia scheme sees more than 52 people use assisted dying in first six months’ – AAP/7News, 19 February 2020 Report: ‘Voluntary Assisted Dying Review Board: Report of Operations January to June 2020’ – Safer Care Victoria, 31 August 2020 In this episode In order of appearance: Mark Yates, Cameron McLaren, Katie Harley, Ray Godbold, Robyn Godbold, Tara Godbold, Rory Godbold, Ella Godbold, Mariska Koster Better Off Dead season two is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia. Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre)Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)  Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre)Episode Transcript: Alice Boyle  Commissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre) Theme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan LaserEpisode artwork: Megan HerbertSpecial thanks to our interviewees Katie Harley and Cameron McLaren for their time for this episode.Listen to Better Off Dead season one here, and subscribe in iTunes, or follow via your favourite podcast app. #BetterOffDeadpod  Phil’s letter to Cameron. “I am so proud of the job that you have done. And I'm eternally thankful. Best wishes for your future, mate. Phil Ferrorotto” - Photo: Juliet Lamont Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Transcript Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format.

Warning: This episode of Better Off Dead contains references to suicide and self-harm. These include discussions about how some terminally ill people have tried to end their lives in the absence of voluntary assisted dying laws. We are aware of the Mindframe guidelines on appropriate language around the discussion of suicide and self-harm, and we have endeavoured to limit this detail.  If you are likely to be distressed by this material, we recommend that you proceed with caution. Please have a self-care plan in place and let others know that you may be upset. Please see a list of services at the bottom of this episode page. The images from 9/11 of people jumping from the World Trade Centre to escape the searing heat of the buildings melting beneath them haunt us still.  Accepting that the only choice facing these people was a choice of how they would die – death by fire, or falling into oblivion – NYC’s Chief Medical Examiner, Charles Hirsh, chose to classify their deaths, not as suicides, but as homicides.  In the Victorian parliamentary debate, MPs opposed to voluntary assisted dying repeatedly described it as ‘state sanctioned suicide’. But is offering a dying person a choice about how they die the same as suicide? Perhaps the most persuasive voice that convinced MPs to legalise assisted dying was that of coroner John Olle. The lonely and brutal suicides he described to a parliamentary inquiry – of elderly and terminally ill Victorians beyond the help of palliative care,  rational people supported by loving families – sent a shock wave through the parliament.  In this episode we meet Lisa, whose mum Margaret was a fiercely independent 82-year-old woman dying of a rare degenerative neurological disease. The race to meet the strict eligibility requirements of the VAD law, before she lost the ability to communicate her wish to be helped to die, meant that for Margaret each waking day was filled with fear.  Faced with the prospect of her illness moving faster than the law, and that she will not be able to leap free, will Margaret have no choice but to be taken by the fire? Lisa Hogg and her mother Margaret “Mum was always a person who did things on her terms.” - Photos: supplied “For the months preceding Mum initiating the VAD process, Mum would say things like, ‘I’ve worked out how to do it’. My sister would ask, ‘Do what?’ and she would say that she had worked out how she was going to kill herself. The methods included throwing herself out of bed onto the hard floor and cutting herself with scissors or a knife.” Lisa Hogg, Margaret’s daughter   Further reading Visit Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Article: ‘Dying with dignity: Coroner’s Court weighs in to euthanasia debate ahead of historic report’ – The Age 28 May, 2016 Article: ‘She died quietly and peacefully with her family around her’ – Go Gentle Australia, 5 August 2020 Video and article: ‘Lawrie’s Last Letter’ – Go Gentle Australia, 26 October 2016 Video: ‘Homily on Assisted Dying’— Bishop Tim Harris, Archdiocese of Townsville, 11 October 2020 Letter: A Pastoral Letter to the People, Clergy and Religious Catholic Communities of Queensland, Bishops’ Pastoral Letter on No Euthanasia Sunday, 11 October 2020 Report: ‘Voluntary Assisted Dying Review Board: Report of Operations January to June 2020’ – Safer Care Victoria, 31 August 2020 Film: ‘The Broken Hearted’ Go Gentle Australia, August 2019 Statement: ‘Suicide” Is Not the Same as Physician Aid in Dying’ – The American Association of Suicidology, Approved October 30, 2017. A photo that says everything: VAD allowed Lisa’s mum Margaret to say goodbye, bathed in love and surrounded by her full tribe. “We kept saying to mum look at you, you created this. This is your legacy." - Photo: supplied In this episode For legal reasons, the words of Parliamentarians spoken in this episode are performed by actors. In order of appearance: Lisa Hogg, Lawrie Daniel, Rebecca Daniel, Tim Harris, Mark Coleridge, Nick Goiran. Better Off Dead season two is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle. Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre)Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)  Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre)Episode Transcript: Alice Boyle  Commissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre) Theme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan LaserEpisode artwork: Megan Herbert Special thanks to our interviewees Lisa Hogg and the Daniel family for their time for this episode. Footage supplied courtesy of Seven Network. All rights reserved. © Listen to Better Off Dead season one here, and subscribe in iTunes, or follow via your favourite podcast app. #BetterOffDeadpod Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and . Transcript Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format.  If you or someone you know needs support please contact one of the following 24/7 support services:  Lifeline  on 13 11 14, The Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine Australia (1300 789 978), or  Kids Helpline (1800 551 800). If you are at risk of harm to yourself or others, contact emergency services immediately by dialling Triple 0. 

Spurred by watching his own father die painfully, in 2015 Andrew Denton set out to investigate – why are good people being forced to die bad deaths?  Five years later, Victoria is the first state in Australia to have passed a voluntary assisted dying law. In the first year of the law’s operation, over 120 people sought assistance to die. More than a year into its operation, it is possible to look at the hypothetical harms (and genuine fears) raised by those opposed to the law and compare them with the actual experience of assisted dying. Paul, Michelle and Jean Caliste, with a photo of Robbie — Paul, Michelle and Jean Caliste. Photo: Michael Gleeson, ABC News supplied by Go Gentle Australia In the first episode of season two of Better Off Dead, we meet the family of 36-year-old Robbie Caliste. Robbie was diagnosed with motor neurone disease (MND) in the same year the Victorian parliament endorsed medical assistance to die. In November 2019, he became the youngest person to die under the law. Robbie and his parents Jean and Michelle help us understand the word which, more than any other, underpins what this law is all about; a word beyond ‘pain’ – suffering. “He didn't want Motor Neuron Disease to win ... He didn't want to be literally that prisoner in the body and looking at you with his eyes. It had done enough damage to him and he knew what the outcome was going to be.” – Jean and Michelle Caliste Robbie Caliste with his mother and brother — Photo: Supplied Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites. If you or someone you know needs support please contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). If you are at risk of harm to yourself or others, contact emergency services immediately by dialling Triple 0. Know more Visit Go Gentle Australia gogentleaustralia.org.au Article: ‘More than 130 Victorians apply to end their lives in first six months of state's assisted dying laws’ – ABC News, 19 February 2020 Article and audio: ‘Twelve months of voluntary assisted dying in Victoria’ - The Conversation Hour, ABC Radio National, 15 June 2020 Report: ‘Voluntary Assisted Dying Review Board: Report of Operations January to June 2020’ – Safer Care Victoria, 31 August 2020 Article and video: ‘Spotlight on Carers: A Reality and a Labour of Love’ by Jean Caliste – MND Victoria, 19 October 2020 Photo: Supplied In this episode In order of appearance: Jean Caliste, Pip Denton, Jo Denton, Spencer Ratcliffe, Shayne Higson, Ella Godbold, Robyn Godbold, Heather Bell, Rory Godbold, Shayne Higson, Karen Hitchcock, Michelle Caliste, Peter Abetz, Stephen Parnis, Nancy Elliott, Kylie Monaghan, Chris Morgan, John Daffy, Ian Haines, Natasha Michael, Mark Coleridge, Helen Lord. Better Off Dead season two is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia. Learn more about Go Gentle Australia’s work. Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre)Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre)Episode Transcript: Alice Boyle Commissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre)Theme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan LaserEpisode artwork: Megan Herbert Special thanks to our interviewees Jean and Michelle Caliste for their time for this episode.Footage supplied courtesy of Seven Network. All rights reserved. © Listen to Better Off Dead season one here, and subscribe in iTunes, or follow via your favourite podcast app.#BetterOffDeadpod Your stories Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Transcript Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format.

Andrew Denton investigates the stories behind Victoria’s landmark Voluntary Assisted Dying (VAD) law: Who seeks to use it, and why? Who are the doctors stepping forward to help them? And how does the church continue to resist a law it describes as ‘evil’? Co-produced by Go Gentle Australia and the Wheeler Centre, season two of Better Off Dead looks at what happened in Victoria after the legislation came into effect in June 2019. "It’s not an easy process. But neither should it be. This is the ending of a life. And it ought to be treated in a serious manner – because it's a serious thing to do." – Former Supreme Court Justice, Betty King, now Chair of the Voluntary Assisted Dying Review Board. Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit Conversations Matter or BeyondBlue. If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). In this episode In order of appearance: Andrew Denton, Katie Harley, Dr Kristin Cornell, Jean Caliste, Dr Greg Mewett, Dr Cameron McLaren, Professor Michael Dooley, Former Justice Betty King QC, Molly Carlile AM, Archbishop Mark Coleridge, Dr Andrea Bendrups, Lisa Hogg. Better Off Dead  season two is produced by the Wheeler Centre and Go Gentle Australia  Writer, Co-Producer and Host: Andrew Denton (Go Gentle Australia) Series Co-Producer and Script Editor: Bethany Atkinson-Quinton (The Wheeler Centre) Associate Producers: Kiki Paul and Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) Audio Editor and Engineer: Martin Peralta Production Assistant: Alex Gow (The Wheeler Centre)Marketing: Emily Harms (The Wheeler Centre), Steve Offner (Go Gentle Australia) and Frankie Bennett (Go Gentle Australia)  Publicity: Debbie McInnes (DMCPR Media) Episode Pages: Mia McAuslan (The Wheeler Centre) Commissioning Editors: Kiki Paul (Go Gentle Australia) and Caro Llewellyn (The Wheeler Centre) Theme music: ‘Loydie’s Angel’, written and performed by Jordan Laser Listen to Better Off Dead season one here, and subscribe in iTunes, or via your favourite podcast app.  #BetterOffDeadpod Your Stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Transcript Download a transcript of this episode in PDF format. 

20 years ago, four dying people were able to access the Northern Territory’s world-first law to help them die more mercifully, before the law itself was extinguished. By the end of 2016, over 100 million people on three continents will be able to access such laws – the most recent places to adopt them being America’s most populous state, California, and Canada. Since that Northern Territory law was overturned in 1997, nearly 30 attempts to create a new one here in Australia have failed. But as the tide of history turns in favour of assisted dying, how much longer can our politicians continue to ignore the call for change? Bob Hawke, left, and Heather Bell — Photo credits: Bob Hawke by Eva Rinaldi (CC-BY-SA); Heather Bell, supplied The old arguments that have held such sway – about the elderly and the vulnerable being unsafe under these laws – no longer hold. Over a decade of experience in Europe, and nearly two decades in America, have shown us that the safeguards do work: that good laws can be created to help the few, and protect the many. In this final episode, drawing on what has worked best overseas, I’m going to tell you what I think that law for assisted dying in Australia should look like. Plus, we’ll hear from two significant stakeholders who both support a change in our law. One, a former Prime Minister. The other, the one major medical body that does officially support assisted dying. Tellingly, they’re the ones who see the suffering of patients every day and up close – the nurses.   'I think it is absurd that euthanasia is not legal within this country. It doesn't meet any requirements of morality or good sense.' Former Prime Minister of Australia, Bob Hawke Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Hear more Embed player Listen Better Off Dead: Interview with Richard Di Natale In March 2016, Australian Greens leader Richard Di Natale put forward a bill, co-sponsored by representatives from all the major parties, aimed at restoring the right of the Northern Territory, ACT and Norfolk Island to legislate for voluntary euthanasia. Here, he discusses the reasoning behind the bill – and the tactics required to create political change on this issue in Australia. Know more Video: 'Q&A: Facing Death' – Australian Broadcasting Corporation, 9 November 2015 Article: 'Bob Hawke calls for euthanasia to be made legal in Australia', by Calla Wahlquist – Guardian, 12 April 2016 Podcast episode: 'Andrew Denton asks, can Australia legislate for better death?' – Conversations with Richard Fidler, Australian Broadcasting Corporation, 23 February 2016 Research paper: 'How should Australia regulate voluntary euthanasia and assisted suicide?', by Ben White and Lindy Willmott – Australia21, November 2012 Essay: 'The right to die or the right to kill?: The argument against euthanasia', by Karen Hitchcock – The Monthly, December 2015–January 2016 Letter: In response to Karen Hitchcock's article (above), by Ian Maddocks – The Monthly, February 2016 Opinion: 'Assisted dying: the difficult conversation we need to have', by Ian McPhee – Age, 2 February 2016 Video: 'Andrew Denton has a new lease on death' – from Sunrise, Yahoo!7, 22 February 2016 Article: 'Medically assisted death weeks away in Canada', by Susan Delacourt – ABC News, 2 March 2016 Article: 'Push to restore voluntary euthanasia in NT, ACT and Norfolk Island', by Helen Davidson – Guardian, 1 March 2016 Speech: 'Voluntary Euthanasia', by Andrew Leigh MP – as spoken in House of Representatives, Parliament of Australia, 17 August 2015 In this episode Bob Hawke Doctors: Cathy, Vic, Andrew, Sarah and Paul Coral Levett Karen Hitchcock Heather Bell Richard Chye Leigh Dolin Michael Williams Marshall Perron Nancy Elliott Paul Russell Liz Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Hope There's Someone' (Antony and the Johnsons), 'Death Don't Have No Mercy' (Reverend Gary Davis), 'Further On (Up the Road)' (Johnny Cash), 'Into My Arms' (Nick Cave), 'Underneath the Stars' (Kate Rusby), 'The Parting Glass' (The Wailin' Jennys) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Bec Fary and Jon Tjhia. Thank you Thanks to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

Paul Russell — Photo: Supplied My search for the truth about assisted dying began when I was invited to attend the HOPE International Symposium in Adelaide, featuring anti-euthanasia speakers from around the world.* There, I heard dire warnings about what was happening in Belgium, the Netherlands and Oregon – where laws to help people die already exist. At their heart lay two key accusations: that the safeguards don’t work, and that the elderly and disabled were threatened. I took careful note. Many months later – having taken off overseas to see if their warnings held true, and spoken to experts worldwide – I sat down with HOPE’s founder and director, Paul Russell, to talk through what I’d learned. * HOPE director Paul Russell has pointed out that he did not invite Andrew Denton to attend a HOPE symposium in May 2015 but rather that he agreed for Andrew to attend. We are happy to correct the record. 'I think what concerns me most is the stuff that you almost can't prove, you know.' Paul Russell, founder and director, HOPE: preventing euthanasia & assisted suicide Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Know more Editorial: 'Final certainty'  – Economist, 27 June 2015 (source) Opinion: 'The tide is turning in Australia's euthanasia debate', by Peter Singer – Age, 2 March 2016 In this episode Paul Russell Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode is 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Camilla Hannan. Thank you Thanks to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

Of all the arguments against assisted dying, the most heartless I’ve heard is this: Suicide is legal. Why do you need assistance to do something that you can do yourself? Every time I hear that thought expressed (and I’ve heard it more than once while making this podcast), I’m astonished at the ease with which the people saying it manage to completely overlook the suffering of the people they’re talking about. In this episode, we’re going to meet one of those people: father of two, Lawrie Daniel. At 50, and stricken with MS, what does it mean to Lawrie to be told, ‘suicide is legal – what’s stopping you?’ Lawrie and Rebecca Daniel at home — Photo: Andrew Denton 'Through MS, I've pretty much lost my fear of dying, because sometimes I think there are things that are worse than death.' Lawrie Daniel Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Know more Review: 'Book review: Kevin Yuill, "Assisted Suicide: The Liberal, Humanist Case Against Legalization"', by Iain Brassington – Journal of Medical Ethics blog, 3 July 2013 In this episode Kevin Yuill Lawrie Daniel Rebecca Daniel Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Loneliness #3 (Night Talking)' (Arcade Fire), 'Our Own Roof' (Nils Frahm), 'All Farewells Are Sudden' (A Winged Victory for the Sullen), 'They Move on Tracks of Never-ending Light' (This Will Destroy You) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Bec Fary. Thank you Thanks to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

The repeated call by opponents of assisted dying is that the elderly and the vulnerable must be protected from coercion. In this, they are right – and there are many safeguards built into existing laws overseas which do exactly that. But what of the elderly described in this episode by two of Australia’s coroners: rational men and women from loving families – who, faced with an irreversible and painful decline into death, are deciding to kill themselves violently instead? Left: Joan Upton (with cake) pictured with her children Greg, Annette and Robert. Right: Philip Nitschke — Photos: Supplied If the law offers them no other way to end their suffering, who could be more coerced than them? And yet, on these vulnerable Australians – including beloved mothers, fathers, partners and grandparents – the opponents are silent. This silence needs to be challenged. It’s time we talked about Australia’s dark little secret. 'They all know it – including doctors. They know that this person is screaming for help but no one is going to answer this call. Not in this society. So they have got to die alone.' Victorian Coroner John Olle, appearing before the Parliament of Victoria's 2015 Inquiry into End Of Life Choices Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Hear more Embed player Listen Better Off Dead: Interview with Frances Coombe Robert ‘Brownie’ Brown was a much-loved and prominent figure in South Australia’s environmental conservation movement. Faced with a life of physical decline, where he could no longer do the things that were important to him, Brownie made the decision to end his life. Unusually, the 94-year-old left a note for the coroner – emphasising that he didn’t want depression listed as the cause of his suicide. Andrew spoke with South Australian Voluntary Euthanasia Society president Frances Coombe – a woman to whom Brownie was a close friend and mentor for over six decades – about the grim choice being made by many elderly Australians. Know more Transcript: 'Standing committee on legal and social issues: Inquiry into end-of-life choices' (PDF), including statements by coroner John Olle – Parliament of Victoria, 7 October 2015 (source) Interactive: 'The big sleep', by Julia Medew – Sydney Morning Herald, 12 January 2016 Article: 'Shaw family calls for Victorian Government to consider assisted death laws', by Julia Medew – Age, 16 February 2016 Article: 'Brighton couple found dead in 'suicide pact'', by Lucie Morris-Marr  – Herald Sun, 13 November 2015 (paywall) Opinion: 'Somebody kill my grandmother. Please', by Sian Prior – Age, 13 November 2015 Opinion: 'My mother euthanased herself. Was it empowerment, or despair?', by Nikki Gemmell – Australian, 16 January 2016 Opinion: 'Andrew Denton has fallen for the doctors' spin on the euthanasia debate', by Fiona Stewart – Brisbane Times, 8 November 2015 Article: 'Philip Nitschke: I don't judge people at all if they want to die', by Melissa Davey – Guardian, 27 December 2015 Article: 'SA coroner calls for debate about elderly people who end their lives alone', by Simon Royal – ABC News, 7 February 2015 In this episode Joan Upton Annette Upton Marshall Perron Mark Johns John Olle (re-enacted by Andrew Martin) Philip Nitschke Kevin Yuill Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'I Am Piano' (Peter Broderick), 'Quiet' (This Will Destroy You), 'Says' (Nils Frahm), 'She/Swimming' (Moon Ate the Dark), 'Portrait Gallery' (Luke Howard), 'They Move on Tracks of Never-ending Light' (This Will Destroy You) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Bec Fary and Jon Tjhia. Thank you Thanks to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

Assisted dying has no more committed opponent than the Catholic Church. They have thrown resources, and the full weight of their political influence, against it wherever it has been proposed. That’s why the words of Sydney’s Archbishop Anthony Fisher – one of Australia’s most senior Catholic clerics, and a man who commands the ear of many politicians – are worth listening to. Archbishop Anthony Fisher, debating ethicist Peter Singer at Sydney Town Hall, 13 August 2015 — Source: YouTube Listen closely, and what you’ll hear is a masterclass in FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. The same seeds sown by opponents of assisted dying to great effect down the years. What lies inside those little seeds of FUD? In this episode – for the first time – we’re going to find out. 'I think it's almost unheard of that the elderly feel more as a burden and the opposite is true. They feel empowered by this, it strengthens them.' Joeri Veen, spokesperson for ANBO – a peak body representing the Dutch elderly – discussing the impact of euthanasia laws on ANBO’s members Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Hear more Embed player Listen Better Off Dead: interview with Tom Keneally Tom Keneally is one of Australia’s best-loved and most successful authors – and a former Catholic seminarian. Here, he discusses the belief of some Catholics that pain can purify, and that suffering redeems the soul. Know more Video: 'Q&A: Facing Death' – Australian Broadcasting Corporation, 9 November 2015 Article: 'FactCheck Q&A: Were 550 babies killed last year under Dutch euthanasia laws?', by Colleen Cartwright (reviewed by Lorana Bartels and Jan F. Koper) – The Conversation, 16 November 2015 Opinion: 'Assisted dying: Sorting the facts from the half-truths and the misleading statements', by Ross Fitzgerald – Age, 15 December 2015 Video: 'Lord Carey on Assisted Dying – July 2014' – Christina Summers, 19 August 2015 Website: Christians Supporting Choice for Voluntary Euthanasia Video: 'Euthanasia debate: Professor Peter Singer versus Archbishop Anthony Fisher OP' – Sydney University Catholic Society, 13 August 2015 In this episode Anthony Fisher Nancy Elliott Catherine Glenn Foster Nick Cooling Alex Schadenberg John Fleming Henk Reitsema Kevin Yuill Joan Hume Illya Soffer Pierre Gyselinck Bob Joondeph Joeri Veen Mie Moerenhout Cheryll Brounstein Eduard Verhagen Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Untitled #8 (Popplagith)' (Sigur Rós), 'Hold Me Through' (Luke Howard), 'I Might be Wrong' (Radiohead) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Bec Fary and Jon Tjhia. Thank you Thanks to field producer Emily Sexton, and to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

Ray Godbold is a palliative care nurse faced with terminal cancer – but he doesn’t want to die in palliative care. Robyn and Ray Godbold — Photo: Andrew Denton Ray knows what some doctors prefer not to admit. He knows that, even in palliative care, not everything can be taken care of; that a patient’s choices about how they die are very limited; and that, sometimes, their dying involves a wildness nobody can predict. What Ray doesn’t know is that his own death will turn out to be everything he was hoping that he and his family would be spared. 'I've been there when lots of people have had terrible deaths. No matter what palliative care people say, the last 24 to 48 hours of somebody's life can be completely unexpected.' Ray Godbold Ray and Robyn Godbold's children: Tara, Ella and Rory — Photo: Andrew Denton Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Ray at Tullamarine Airport — Photo: Robyn Godbold Know more Article: 'Right to die: Dr Rodney Syme hands patient Ray Godbold life-ending medication', by Konrad Marshall – Age, 11 May 2015 Multimedia feature: 'Into the darkness', by Konrad Marshall – Age, 13 November 2014 Article: 'Dying with Dignity campaigner Ray Godbold farewelled by family', by Konrad Marshall – Age, 19 August 2015 Article: 'The right to die at home', by Chris Fotinopoulos – Saturday Paper, 5 December 2015 Transcript of testimony (PDF): 'Standing committee on legal and social issues: Inquiry into end-of-life choices', by Rory Godbold and Tara Szafraniec – Parliament of Victoria, 29 October 2015 In this episode Ray Godbold Robyn Godbold Ella Godbold Rory Godbold Tara Szafraniec (née Godbold) Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Life Story' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'Longplay' (Luke Howard), 'Familiar' (Nils Frahm), 'We're All Leaving' (Arcade Fire), 'Abandon Window' (Jon Hopkins), 'Ain't No Grave Going to Hold Me Down' (Charlie Parr), 'untitled #1 (vaka)' (Sigur Rós) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Jess Fairfax. Thank you Thanks to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

Associate Professor Richard Chye is the director of the Sacred Heart palliative care unit at St Vincent’s Hospital in Sydney. A gifted physician and teacher, he is also a hugely influential figure in palliative care in Australia. Apart from being a member of various state and national committees, he’s a board member of Palliative Care Australia – the peak national organisation. Responding to my request, Richard invited me to spend a week with his team to see what they do – and to discuss the subject of assisted dying. Two things stood out as I watched the doctors and nurses of palliative care go about their work: the compassion and care from everyone as they helped people to die in often complex circumstances; and just as apparent, a deep resistance to the thought of assisted dying. Exactly how deep I didn’t realise – until I sat down to speak with Richard. Shayne Higson (second left), pictured with her sisters and their mother Jan (farthest right) who died of brain cancer: 'I thought that [with] terminal sedation … there would be no suffering, but that's not right' — Photo: supplied 'Love has got many ways of operating, I think … and I believe that assisting someone to die can be a loving act.' Professor Ian Maddocks, first Chair of Palliative Care at Flinders University, and first President of the Australian and New Zealand Society for Palliative Medicine Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Know more Letter: From Ian Maddocks – The Monthly, February 2016 Article: 'Euthanasia isn’t a substitute for palliative care at the end of life', by Richard Chye – Sydney Morning Herald, 9 November 2015 Article: 'Andrew Denton: Doctors shouldn't look away when dying patients are suffering', by Andrew Denton – Sydney Morning Herald, 10 November 2015 Blog post: 'Denton lacks understanding of dying process – a social worker’s perspective', by Elissa Campbell – Palliverse, 13 November 2015 Video: 'Even the best palliative care can't always help' – Dying For Choice, 19 September 2013 In this episode Richard Chye Ian Maddocks Shayne Higson Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes '21:05' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'You Know Me Well' (Sharon Van Etten), 'The Shooting' (Nils Frahm), 'All of Me Wants All of You' (Sufjan Stevens), 'Videotape' (Radiohead) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Bec Fary. Thank you Thanks to Stanley Street Gallery, and to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

Speaking with doctors in Belgium, the Netherlands and Oregon, I’d learnt that in those places, palliative care and assisted dying are seen as things that go together – and assisting a patient to die may sometimes be the ultimate offer of help for those beyond the skills of even the most dedicated palliative care experts. Spencer Ratcliff had never witnessed such pain as he saw during his partner Deb's final days – pain which palliative care staff were unable to relieve: 'I said, "What are we supposed to do? Just sit and watch her scream herself to death in pain?"' — Photo: Andrew Denton Back home in Australia, the law forbids assisted dying. Without a law to protect or guide doctors and nurses, I wondered: how does palliative care here deal with those same kinds of patients? Richard Chye is the director of palliative care at St Vincent’s Hospital in Sydney. When I asked him if I could spend a week in his unit to learn what it is they do, I was upfront with him. I told him I believed there should be a law for assisted dying in Australia – not a subject often raised within their walls – and that it would be one of many things I’d like to discuss with him and his team. To my surprise, and to his credit, he agreed. By the end of that week, two things struck me about the doctors and nurses of Sacred Heart. First: their deep commitment to, and compassion towards, their patients. And second: the universal acknowledgement of how hard they found it when a patient was beyond their help. 'I think we do provide dignity and good care, and the majority of the time, symptoms are managed well. But there are occasions when a symptom isn’t controlled, or someone has a rough journey – for whatever reason, you know – and you do think about that.' Nursing unit manager Ken Webb Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Hear more Embed player Listen Better Off Dead: Interview with Alex Broom Alex Broom, Professor at Sociology at the University of NSW, spent six months embedded in a Catholic hospice. His was the first study in Australia to explore patients’ views on assisted dying. What he got was a unique insight into the gulf that exists between many patients’ expressed wish for help to die, and the response they receive. Know more Article: 'The speech on dying you were prevented from hearing', by Michael Short – Sydney Morning Herald, 26 May 2015 Article: 'OPINION: Time to act on medically assisted dying', by Brian Winship – Newcastle Herald, 19 June 2015 Blog post: 'Denton lacks understanding of dying process – a social worker’s perspective', by Elissa Campbell – Palliverse, 13 November 2015 Video: 'Even the best palliative care can't always help' – Dying For Choice, 19 September 2013 In this episode Nancy Fran Nam Therese Compton Ken Webb Philip Redelman Spencer Ratcliff Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes '23:17' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'In the Deep Shade' (The Frames), 'We're All Leaving' (Arcade Fire), 'They Move on Tracks of Never-Ending Light' (This Will Destroy You), 'Black Sands' (Bonobo), 'Petra' (Blue Dot Sessions), 'All of Me Wants All of You' (Sufjan Stevens), 'Says' (Nils Frahm) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Jon Tjhia. Thank you Thanks to Stanley Street Gallery, and to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

The success of Oregon’s Death with Dignity Act – at 18 years, the world’s longest-running law of this kind – puts two things into sharp relief. Firstly, the increasingly desperate attempts of opponents to discredit it. Secondly, the truth they don’t want you to see – that this law works, and exactly as intended. How that law came to pass in such a religiously conservative country stands as a masterclass in public policy, and one that set the template other US states have since followed. Brittany Maynard: 'I would like all Americans to have access to the same healthcare rights' — Source: YouTube The most significant of these was California, which in 2015 adopted Oregon’s law – thanks in no small part to a woman named Brittany Maynard. Brittany was just 29, and dying of brain cancer, when she left her home in California to go and live in Oregon, where the law offered her a choice about how she died. Her decision to use her dying days to campaign publicly for a similar law in California made her a household name, with her videos attracting over 16 million views on YouTube. As he signed California’s End of Life Option Act into law, Governor Jerry Brown – a Catholic – said: ‘I do not know what I would do if I were dying in prolonged and excruciating pain. I am certain, however, that it would be a comfort to be able to consider the options afforded by this bill. And I wouldn’t deny that right to others.’ 'I think we do a much better job because of this law. It’s done exactly what it’s supposed to, and more.' Leigh Dolin, former president of the Oregon Medical Association Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Hear more Embed player Listen Better Off Dead: Interview with Peg Sandeen Peg Sandeen is the executive director of the Death With Dignity National Center in Portland, Oregon. Here, she describes how Oregon’s Death with Dignity Act works, and the campaign to take it to other states in America. Know more Article: 'Twenty Years of Living with the Oregon Death with Dignity Act', by Eli Stutsman – GP Solo vol. 30 no. 4, 2013 Report: 'Oregon's Death with Dignity Act – 2014' – Oregon Public Health Division, 2015 Radio: 'California: Euthanasia' – The Law Report, ABC RN, 27 October 2015 Video: 'Brittany Maynard Legislative Testimony' – Brittany Maynard/CompassionChoices (YouTube), 31 March 2015 Article: 'Terminally Ill Woman Brittany Maynard Has Ended Her Own Life', by Nicole Weisensee Egan – People, 2 November 2014 Video: 'Brittany Maynard's mother: Help me carry out her legacy' – The Telegraph (YouTube), 22 January 2015 Article: 'California's governor has signed a bill legalising doctor-assisted dying' – Economist, 6 October 2015 In this episode Eli Stutsman Derek Humphry Leigh Dolin Kevin Yuill Alex Schadenberg Nancy Elliott Catherine Glenn Foster Katrina Hedberg Daniel E. Lee Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Haust' (Ólafur Arnalds), 'Dead Radio' (Rowland S. Howard), 'The Puritan' (This Will Destroy You), 'Petiatil Cx Htdui' (Aphex Twin), 'LSD' (ASAP Rocky), 'I Might be Wrong' (Radiohead), 'Between Stones' (Blue Dot Sessions) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Jon Tjhia. Thank you Thanks to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

Shortly after arriving in Belgium, I learned of ‘Laura’ – a 24-year-old woman who had sought the right to be euthanised after years of unrelieved mental suffering. Immediately, I heard alarm bells. My gut reaction? A 24-year-old who’s not terminally ill? Surely there’s a point at which a society says ‘no: you have too much life ahead of you for us to help you die’. If you’d asked me to tell you the point where it began to feel uncomfortable, this was it. After years of deep isolation, Marjorie Vangansbeke went to ULteam in pursuit of euthanasia. Instead, she came away with a diagnosis that helped her re-embrace her life — Photo: Emily Sexton The days that followed, where I talked with some of Belgium’s leading psychiatrists and physicians, were amongst the most intense I’ve ever experienced. Emotionally, I couldn’t shake the thought that this didn’t seem right. But intellectually, I wondered: is there more here than I know? To be honest, I toyed with not including this story in the podcast: it is so fraught with ambiguity and nuance that I feared it could easily be misunderstood. But two things persuaded me to continue with it. Firstly, that it was the people treating this young woman who had alerted me to her case. They wanted me to look at it – to try and understand. And secondly? A meeting I had, two hours out of Brussels, with a man whose sadness was so intense it was almost visible. The story he told me would change my understanding of the world. It led me to a question I had never considered before: what if the offer of euthanasia could actually save lives? Pierre Pol Vincke and his daughter Edith who, after 18 years of severe mental illness and many denied attempts to seek relief through euthanasia, took her own life while in a psychiatric ward — Photos: supplied 'She realised that she was already dead, and whenever she asked for help for euthanasia, the answer of the doctors was to condemn her to stay alive.' Pierre Pol Vincke Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Hear more Embed player Listen Better Off Dead: interview with Dirk De Wachter Psychiatric euthanasias are the most difficult, and in some quarters, the most disputed of all forms of assisted dying. Here, Dirk De Wachter – one of Belgium’s leading psychiatrists, and author of the best-selling Borderline Times – discusses the complexities of a practice that he nonetheless cautiously supports. Know more Video: '24 & ready to die' – Economist, 10 November 2015 Article: 'Belgian bishops, pros agree: no euthanasia for "psychological suffering"', by Jonathan Luxmoore – CatholicPhilly.com, 11 December 2015 Article: 'A commentary on "Euthanasia for psychiatric patients: ethical and legal concerns about the Belgian practice" from Claes et al.', by Lieve Thienpont and Monica Verhofstadt – BMJ Open, 5 January 2016 In this episode Marjorie Vangansbeke Lieve Thienpont Luc Proot Pierre Pol Vincke Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes '20:17' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'Tunnel' (Luke Howard), 'Familiar' (Nils Frahm), 'Dedication, Loyalty' (Nils Frahm), 'Hand, be Still' (Ólafur Arnalds), 'White Night' (Ludovico Einaudi) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Jess Fairfax. Thank you Thanks to field producer Emily Sexton, and to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

If there is an epicentre for anti-euthanasia sentiment, it’s Belgium – home to what are often described as the most liberal euthanasia laws in the world. Here, people of any age – even, in some circumstances, children – can be euthanised. Allegations are made of a euthanasia culture that has become so uncaring that the elderly are regularly despatched without their consent. The word ‘murder’ is sometimes used. Arsène Mullie speaks to Andrew Denton — Photo: Emily Sexton Tom Mortier — Photo: alexschadenberg.blogspot.com Yet for all these claims, since Belgium’s euthanasia law was introduced in 2002, public support for it remains phenomenally high (over 80%) – and there has been no procession of Belgians coming forward to complain about what the law has done to their families. Which is why Tom Mortier’s story is so powerful. Alleging the wrongful death of his mother under this law, he has put a human face to the slippery slope. Tom’s story is being used around the world as the ultimate cautionary tale about the fluidity of Belgium’s laws. There’s no doubting the pain that he feels. But is it a true reflection of a law – and a society – gone wrong? 'How can you say that you don't want to help if you're in palliative care? What do you do then with patients who want euthanasia? How can you say to a patient who suffers, "keep suffering, tomorrow it will be better"?' Arsène Mullie, retired senior palliative care physician, Flanders   Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Hear more Embed player Listen Better Off Dead: Interview with Marc Desmet No doctor comes to the question of euthanasia lightly. In Belgium – a predominantly Catholic country – questions of faith, morality, and ethics often collide. Here’s palliative care physician, and Jesuit, Marc Desmet discussing his own complex relationship with euthanasia. Know more Article: 'Attitudes towards assisted dying' – Economist, 27 June 2015 Article: 'The death treatment', by Rachel Aviv – The New Yorker, 22 June 2015 In this episode Tom Mortier Yves Desmet Arsène Mullie Alex Schadenberg Jan Bernheim Margaret Otlowski Luc Proot Kevin Yuill Jacqueline Herremans Lieve Thienpont Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'We Disappear' (Jon Hopkins), 'B1' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'A2 (Max Cooper remix)' (Nils Frahm), 'Abandon Window' (Jon Hopkins), 'Hunting Bears' (Radiohead), 'I Might be Wrong' (Radiohead), 'Against the Sky' (Harold Budd and Brian Eno), 'Hammers' (Nils Frahm), 'The Mighty Rio Grande' (This Will Destroy You) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Bec Fary. Thank you Thanks to field producer Emily Sexton, and to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

For those who hold out the Netherlands as a textbook case of a ‘slippery slope’, they see a law originally designed to help the terminally ill – but that has now ‘slipped’ to include those who aren’t. But the Dutch law wasn’t written to deal only with certain diseases; guided by doctors themselves, it was deliberately created for people whose suffering is ‘unbearable and untreatable’. Barbara Heetman: 'My mother had to say totally from her own brain, heart, whatever, ‘I want this."' — Photo: Emily Sexton This might include, for example, people with long-term, corrosive illnesses such as multiple sclerosis or motor neurone disease. In some circumstances, it may even include people with Alzheimer’s. But if the basis of your law is that only a mentally competent adult can request euthanasia, how do you deal with cases where that competence is unclear? Barbara Heetman’s mother, Jeanne, applied to be euthanised before losing herself in the fog of Alzheimer’s. Her request was considered by the End of Life Clinic (Levenseindekliniek) that specialises in complex euthanasia requests. The many steps Jeanne had to go through to prove she was mentally competent provide a powerful demonstration of the care with which Dutch euthanasia law is carried out – and an equally powerful rebuttal of claims of a slippery slope. Gerrit Kimsma: 'We are being transparent and I think we have a good system. We should be proud of it.' — Photo: Emily Sexton 'It is not something doctors like to do; they don’t. If you can get around euthanasia as a doctor, you will do it, because it costs you.' Mariska Koster, a Dutch doctor, describing the impact of being involved in a euthanasia death Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Hear more Embed player Listen Better Off Dead: interview with Willie Swildens Willie Swildens-Rozendaal has chaired the Netherlands’ euthanasia review committees since their inception. Here, she takes you through how they operate, and the safeguards built into the system. Know more Article: 'Attitudes towards assisted dying' – Economist, 27 June 2015 Article: 'The Last Day of Her Life', by Robin Marantz Henig – New York Times Magazine, 14 May 2015 In this episode Mariska Koster Theo Boer Steven Pleiter Gerrit Kimsma Eric van Wijlick Barbara Heetman Alex Schadenberg Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Four' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'In Utero' (subaske), 'B1' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'Me' (Nils Frahm), 'For' (Nils Frahm), 'L$D' (ASAP Rocky), 'Slow Show' (The National), 'Hands, Be Still' (Ólafur Arnalds) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta.  Thank you Thanks to field producer Emily Sexton, and to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

The Netherlands’ euthanasia laws are the longest-running in Europe. Surprisingly, the drive to create them didn’t come from politicians; it came from doctors. Recognising that, like doctors in many countries (including our own), they were already assisting people to die, they pushed for a law that would bring the practice into the light – protecting both them and their patients. The Hoffman sisters, interviewed in this episode — Photo: Emily Sexton In Australia, we hear lots of dark things about the slippery slope the Dutch are sliding down. Critics suggest that their euthanasia laws have spawned a system of legalised killing that is now running out of control. But what we never hear are the voices of the Dutch themselves. So I decided to go there to find out, first hand, how this system works – and if it really is out of control. After all, this is a country where euthanasia not only has support across the political spectrum and from all the major medical bodies – but also has one of the highest levels of public approval in the world. Perhaps there’s more to these laws than we’ve been told? 'It only lasted five minutes, but when I think back about it, it feels like a whole life – because we had this humour and this pure love feeling in the house. And I know for sure, and I can say with a hand on my heart, this is exactly how mother wants this.' Marian Hoffman – describing the euthanasia of her mother, Gret, who was dying of cancer Eric van Wijlick and Andrew Denton — Photo: Emily Sexton Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Hear more Embed player Listen Better Off Dead: interview with Rob Jonquière The Dutch Right To Die Organisation, known locally as the NVVE, is 160,000 members strong – bigger than any political party in the Netherlands. They are essentially the patient’s advocates, advising them about their end of life choices and arguing for their rights under the law. Listen to former NVVE chief executive (and at the time of this interview, their interim director), Rob Jonquière. Know more Article: 'The Right to Die' – The Economist, 27 June 2015 Article: 'Euthanasia on the rise in Netherlands', by Xavier Symons – BioEdge, 10 October 2015 Article: 'The Last Days of Annie Bus: A Chronicle of Dutch Euthanasia', by Laura Höflinger – Der Spiegel, 4 February 2015 In this episode Alex Schadenberg Theo Boer Henk Reitsema Susan Hoffman Marian Hoffman Eric van Wijlick Gerrit Kimsma Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'I Might be Wrong' (Radiohead), 'Life Story' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'Loftið Verður Skyndilega Kalt' (Ólafur Arnalds), 'Says' (Nils Frahm) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Camilla Hannan.  Thank you Thanks to field producer Emily Sexton, and to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

Opponents of assisted dying in Australia want to leave things as they are, because of the worrying things they claim might happen if we did have a law. But what about the worrying things that actually are happening because we don’t have one? 'They find themselves often initially charged with murder and … I don't think that society needs or requires that.' Former Victorian Director of Public Prosecutions, John Coldrey Left to right – Cathy Pryor; her mother Anne; her father Peter — Photos: Supplied It is illegal in Australia to aid or abet a suicide, no matter the circumstances. This is, rightly, so that people aren’t encouraged to take their own lives when they are deeply vulnerable, or for someone else’s personal gain. But it doesn’t take into account people like former Tasmanian nurse Cathy Pryor. In the space of six months, Cathy assisted both her grievously ill parents to die. She was charged with, and found guilty, of attempted murder and assisting a suicide. Cathy went to jail until a judge decided that both were clearly acts of compassion, and allowed her to walk free. The record shows Cathy is a convicted criminal. But should she ever have faced trial? According to former Victorian Director Of Public Prosecutions, John Coldrey, it is inappropriate that someone acting out of love should have to go through what Cathy went through. As a judge, Coldrey has himself been faced with similar crimes. He recounts his emotional decision to let Victorian man Alex Maxwell walk free after assisting his cancer-stricken wife to die. In a society when there is no law for assisted dying – but where people are being assisted to die anyway – Coldrey is just one of many who believe that our law around assisted dying needs to be reconsidered. Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Hear more Embed player Listen Better Off Dead: Interview with Bill and Stuart Godfrey In 2004, Tasmanian man Stuart Godfrey was charged with assisting his mother, Elizabeth, to die. He faced a maximum sentence of 21 years in jail and received a 12 month suspended sentence conditional on good behaviour. Stuart hasn’t spoken publicly since the day he left court. Now, he breaks his silence. Know more Research sources: Do Australian Doctors Assist Patients to Die? Article: 'Nurse set to appeal over conviction', by Maria Rae – The Examiner, 20 December 2005 Article: 'Assisted suicide case prompts calls for euthanasia law review' – ABC News, 20 December 2005 Article: 'Police question Nagambie GP over "lethal dose" to help patient die', by Richard Baker and Nick McKenzie – The Age, 18 December 2015 Article: 'Having a choice about how and when my mum died would have provided her with comfort and peace', by Rachel Friend – Daily Telegraph, 15 November 2015 Article: 'Dear Mum, sorry I didn't kill you', by Tracey Spicer – Sydney Morning Herald, 13 June 2013 Video: 'Dangers of Legalized Euthanasia? - Tony Abbott' – FORA.tv, 6 April 2009 Video: 'IQ2 Debate: Should Euthanasia Be Legalized?' – FORA.tv, 2 March 2009 In this episode Cathy Pryor John Coldrey Coral Levett Rodney Syme Margaret Otlowski Marshall Perron Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Hold Me Through' (Luke Howard), 'The Sinking Belle (Blue Sheep)' (Sunn O))) and Boris), 'Hand, Be Still' (Olafur Arnalds), 'Dysnomia' (Dawn of Midi), 'We (Too) Shall Rest' (Olafur Arnalds), 'Burial on the Presidio Banks' (This Will Destroy You), 'I Might Be Wrong' (Radiohead), 'Weatherman Accountable' (Big Noble), 'Videotape' (Radiohead) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Jon Tjhia. Thank you Thank you to Stanley Street Gallery in Sydney. Thanks also to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

According to Canadian anti-euthanasia campaigner Alex Schadenberg, Melbourne doctor Rodney Syme is a threat to society: a ‘cowboy’ and ‘the worst of the worst’. Why? Because for over a decade now, Syme has been publicly assisting terminally and chronically ill patients to die – despite the threat of jail for doing so. How did a respectable 80-year-old urologist come to be a law-breaking cowboy? Melbourne urologist Rodney Syme — Photo: supplied 'I thought: what is ethical about me being able to end my own suffering but my patients have to go on?' Rodney Syme Sandra Morris and Albert Leonzini, both featured in this episode — Photo: Emily Sexton It began 40 years ago, with a patient of his who was dying of kidney cancer. Her name was Betty. Syme could hear her screams from the foyer of the hospital. He didn’t know how to help her – but his conscience was pricked. Syme knew that, as a doctor, if he were in the same kind of pain, he could find drugs – or help from other doctors – that would mean he didn’t have to suffer like Betty. He began to wonder: why should he have access to this help, but not his patients? Over the last two decades, Rodney Syme estimates that he’s helped more than 100 people to die. Assisting a suicide carries a maximum five-year jail term in Victoria. But, despite publicly challenging the police to charge him, no charges have yet been laid. In late 2015, on national television, Syme admitted that he had helped Point Lonsdale man Steve Guest to die. He continues to provoke the law in the hope that a new and more compassionate one can be written: one that allows people with unbearable and untreatable suffering to request assistance to die. Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Hear more Embed player Listen Better Off Dead: Interview with Sandra Morris Through Rodney Syme, Albert Leonzini – dying of motor neurone disease – has obtained the lethal, illegal drug Nembutal, which offers him the opportunity to be in control of how he dies. But for all the peace of mind it offers, it still takes great courage to decide to use it. Albert’s partner of 40 years, Sandra Morris, tells what happened next. Know more Audio: Steve Guest calls Jon Faine on 774 ABC Melbourne in 2005 Article: 'The speech on dying you were prevented from hearing', by Michael Short (with a transcript of Rodney Syme's speech) – The Age, 26 May 2015 In this episode Alex Schadenberg Rodney Syme Albert Leonzini Sandra Morris Catherine Glenn Foster Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Says' (Nils Frahm), 'Abandon Window' (Jon Hopkins), 'You Know Me Well' (Sharon Van Etten), 'Remedios The Beauty' (Oren Ambarchi), 'Fall Out' (Mount Kimbie), 'Dissolved Girl' (Massive Attack), 'John My Beloved' (Sufjan Stevens) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Thank you Thank you to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

Liz is a dynamic 48 year-old businesswoman who’s dying of cancer. She wants to have a choice about how she dies because she’s been through palliative care. In her words: ‘They can’t control your pain, let me tell you. I’ve been there.’ Liz in her apartment with some of the equipment needed to test the lethal, and illegal, drug Nembutal — Photo: Andrew Denton Illegally importing Nembutal requires a lengthy process of testing to verify its purity. These photos, taken at Liz's house, depict some of that process – which took six hours in total — Photos: Andrew Denton Liz’s first plan was to apply to the Dignitas Clinic in Switzerland, the only country in the world that will legally help terminally ill people from other countries to die. But she’s rebuffed by her specialist – who refuses to support her application on the basis that ‘it will mean that I’ve failed at my job.’ In Australia, there is no law for assisted dying, which means that Liz’s only other option, if she wants to have any say over her fate, is to live – and die – outside the law. Plan B involves illegally importing the lethal drug Nembutal. Beyond the arduous testing process – and the ever-present fear of the police knocking on her door – Liz is now faced with the terrible calculus of dying. Does she try and hang on till her son’s wedding, and run the risk that she will suffer the death she fears? Or does she say goodbye to everything she loves, and take Nembutal? And, if she does, how can she do that without incriminating her family? What is it like to live in fear that your death may incriminate the ones you love? That the only solution is to die alone? Welcome to Liz’s world. 'I am fearful of that end road to death when you are actively dying. I know they can't control my pain.' Liz Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Know more Video: 'More Australians importing illegal euthanasia drug' – Lateline, 13 September 2013 In this episode Liz  Rodney Syme Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Paris, Texas' (Ry Cooder), 'Another Routine Day Breaks' (Brokeback), 'Space Kay' (Daniel Lanois), 'Boga' (Amiina), 'Reach for the Dead' (Boards of Canada), 'Good Times' (Jim O'Rourke), 'Up to Pizmo' (Labradford), 'Plastic Energy Man' (Papa M), 'Ten Day Interval' (Tortoise), 'White Mustang II' (Daniel Lanois), 'Moving Thought' (Lori Scacco feat. Tim Delaney) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Additional original music and sound design by Jon Tjhia. Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. This episode was edited and mixed by Jon Tjhia. Thank you Liz and her family, and Rodney Syme. Thanks also to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod This episode was first published in preview form in November 2015. A number of small edits and changes have occurred in the interim. Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

My name is Andrew Denton. I’m a writer and broadcaster who lives in Sydney, Australia. In October 2015, I delivered a public address arguing for an assisted dying law in my country. This podcast is the end result of that process. In it, you will hear the voices of those who I spoke to for my research and learn the reasons that led me to argue for a new, and merciful, law. Kit and Andrew Denton — Photo: supplied Who am I to be talking to you about a subject as complex as assisted dying? It’s true, I have no expertise … other than the expertise too many of us share: I saw someone I love die badly. My dad, Kit, did not go gentle. Although clearly dying of heart failure, and obviously in great pain, he was assisted to die in the only way that Australia’s law then – and now – would allow: he was given increasing doses of morphine to settle the pain. But morphine never did settle the pain. Not his and not ours. The images of those final three days will never be erased. So, prompted by the death of my father, and based on a year of research, I’ve tried to seek out the truth about assisted dying. How does it work, who is it for … and is it safe? To do that, I’ve travelled to countries where laws to help people die already exist. And I’ve spoken to people on all sides of this debate: doctors, nurses, activists, opponents and, most particularly, the dying and their families. 'In Australia, we have no law to help the terminally or chronically ill die, which means that good people are being forced to die bad deaths. I want to find out why.' Andrew Denton 'It was definitely life-affirming. My father in that sense had a great death, if you can say something is a great death': Margaretta Pos talks about her father, Hugo (pictured, right), who suffered from terminal cancer and chose euthanasia at his home in the Netherlands — Photo: Michiel van Kempen (supplied) You may not know this, but Australia was the first place in the world to pass a law giving terminally ill people the legal right to be helped to die. That was in the Northern Territory in 1995. But, within a year, that law had been overturned by the newly-elected conservative Federal Government. Only four people had been able to use it. Were Australians happy to see the law gone? No. Every opinion poll taken in this country since, shows overwhelming public support – in excess of 70% – for assisted dying. But of the 27 attempts to pass a new law in the last 15 years, not one has come close to succeeding. It doesn’t make sense. Why can’t we help people who are in great pain and beyond medical help to die? Welcome to Better Off Dead. Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890). Hear more Andrew Bunn from Essential Research takes you through the polling on assisted dying in contemporary Australia. Embed player Listen Better Off Dead: Interview with Andrew Bunn (Essential Research) Know more Article and video: 'Andrew Denton on dying' – 6minutes, 14 December 2015 Article: 'Death in Amsterdam', by Margaretta Pos – The Monthly, May 2013 Transcript: 'An Argument for Assisted Dying in Australia: Andrew Denton's Di Gribble Argument in full', by Andrew Denton – wheelercentre.com, 2 November 2015 Article: 'Euthanasia and assisted suicide laws around the world', by Sabine Cessou, Kim Willsher, Lauren Gambino, Philip Oltermann and Leo Cendrowicz – Guardian, 18 July 2014 In this episode Jo and Pip Denton Vic Dawson Margaretta Pos Catherine Glenn Foster Paul Russell Brendan Malone Father John Fleming Kevin Yuill Alex Schadenberg Nancy Elliott Liz Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Paris, Texas' (Ry Cooder), 'Miserere' (Gregorio Allegri; performed by Choir of King's College, Cambridge), 'Gentle Piece' (Craig Armstrong), 'Snippet' (Nils Frahm), 'White Mustang II' (Daniel Lanois), 'Me' (Nils Frahm), 'Firestarter' (The Prodigy), 'White Rabbit' (Jefferson Airplane), 'Glory Box' (Portishead), 'Snow Theatre/Final Steps' (tomandandy), 'Sogg' (Amiina), 'Flite' (The Cinematic Orchestra) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly). Additional original music and sound design by Jon Tjhia. Your stories If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here. Further information Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre. Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. This episode was edited and mixed by Jon Tjhia. Thank you Jo and Pip Denton, Vic Dawson, Margaretta Pos, Paul Russell and HOPE, Stanley Street Gallery in Sydney, and Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’. The series Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod This episode was first published in preview form in November 2015. A number of small edits and changes have occurred in the interim. Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

Introducing Better Off Dead – a new podcast from Andrew Denton and the Wheeler Centre. From early 2016, join us as Andrew investigates the stories, moral arguments and individuals woven into discussions about why good people are dying bad deaths in Australia. Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890).