Jessup Think

Historian Abigail Feely joins the show to discuss the importance of studying history, especially giving voice to marginalized histories.

Founder and President of Fidelis International Seminary, Frank Schattner, joins the show to talk about the his project of making a low cost seminary-style education accessible to people all over the globe. Check out fidelisproject.com for more information.

Mark and Rex examine the complexities of the process of deconstruction while offering some helpful guides on one's journey of faith.

Long-time Intervarsity staff member Susie Veon joins the show to talk about her experience of the Jesus movement in the late 1960s and early 70s.

Authors Matt Tebbe and Ben Sternke join the show to talk about their book Having the Mind of Christ. Matt and Ben explore what they have had to unlearn and relearn from Jesus about what it means to be a Christian.

Liturgist Karl Gurney joins the show to talk about worship and faith within the Catholic church in a post Pope Benedict XVI world.

Licensed professional counselor Krispin Mayfield joins the show to discuss his book on attachment styles and the spiritual life.

Dr. Amy Peeler from Wheaton College joins the show to discuss her new book Women and the Gender of God. Dr. Peeler explores how our understanding of gender affects how we relate to God and how we relate to others.

Founder and Executive Director of The Alliance: Defending the Cause of Kids & Families, Tiffany Loeffler, joins the show to talk about her work with foster youth as well as her work at Jessup with the OnRamp scholarship fund.

Dr. Damon Horton from California Baptist University joins the show to talk about his approach to conversations on race as a preview to his lecture on campus at Jessup on February 9.

Renown author Richard Foster joins the show along with Brenda Quinn to talk about Richard's new book: Learning Humility: A Year of Searching for a Vanishing Virtue. This is a great way to start 2023!

Mark and Rex wish everyone a Merry Christmas and happy New Year by sharing stories from their past which include a Christmas Eve in a Columbian jail and a nefarious BB gun.

Dr. Winfield Bevins joins the show to talk about the connection of liturgy and mission. Points he highlights in his new book, Liturgical Mission: The Work of the People for the Life of the World.

Mark and Rex discuss the interplay between faith and economics, tackling questions like, How should a Christian view wealth? Poverty? What does the Bible hae to teach us about money? Just in time for holiday shopping.

In honor of Native American Heritage Month we are bringing back our interview with the lead editor of the First Nations Version, Terry Wildman, we recorded last year. For more information on the translation, go to firstnationsversion.com.

Jessup's lead faculty in mathematics, Michelle Clark, joins the show to discuss how math helps us understand the wonder and beauty of God.

Jessup's newest professor of biblical studies, Dr. Max Botner, joins the show to talk about his journey to Jessup and his heart for studying and teaching the Bible.

Dr. M. Daniel Carroll from Wheaton College joins the show to discuss his new book The Lord Roars: Recovering the Prophetic Voice for Today.

Scholar and Jazz enthusiast William Edgar joins the show to discuss his new book, A Supreme Love: The Music of Jazz and the Hope of the Gospel.

Mark and Rex kick off Season 4 by looking back at their summer travels and summer reading list, proving once again Julius Rex Gurney is the most interesting man in the world!

Sociologist Felicia Song from Westmont College joins the show to discuss her new book Restless Devices: Recovering Personhood, Presence, and Place in the Digital Age.

Theologian Kelly Kapic joins us again to talk about our new book You're Only Human: How Your Limits Reflect God's Design and Why That's Good News.

Dr. Loren Haarsma, professor of physics and astronomy at Calvin University, joins the show to talk about his recent book, When Did Sin Begin? Human Evolution and the Doctrine of Original Sin.

Author Kaitlyn Schiess joins the show to discuss her recent book, The Liturgy of Politics: Spiritual Formation for the Sake of Our Neighbor.

Mark and Rex are joined by their award winning student associate producer, Matthew Todd, to recap the highlights of season 3. TRANSCRIPT 0:01 Everyone welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore 0:04 and your co-host Rex Gurney and resident minion, Matthew, Todd, 0:07 and Rex and Matthew, we are excited today. This is Season Three finales. And this is our final one before we go into summer reruns. And we're just going to look back at the show, and we're going to introduce you maybe more to the minion in the room. Mr. Matthew, just show you the reach 0:25 of Jessup Think. Actually, I connected with one of my former seminary friends is living outside of DC and they've been there forever. And I mentioned that you have podcasts and so he listened to all season three backwards, he said, 0:39 Oh, there we go. Well, we hope you enjoy the season three finale. 0:43 Yeah. Well, if you're listening then and I can, I can spread it to my new place, too. 0:48 So where's your new place? So here 0:50 what we have, we have to have a break for them to and then we'll start the episode. You know what I'm saying? Like that was the intro. So we can tailor if you're listening after the enjoy season three finale, you can you can go into the music and then 1:08 oh, yeah, okay. 1:10 I forgot we're pros here. 1:11 Yeah, we just 1:13 so Pro that we gave him extra content to work with 1:15 just more content. So now we'll start the podcast portion of the show. 1:29 Rex and Matt, so glad to have you. That might be the first time I've ever called you, man in my life. 1:35 I feel like one of those things that you wipe your feet on when you come into someone's house. 1:39 That's true. Do you prefer Matthew? I do. 1:42 However, I think you know, being Matt is sort of biblical, because you're supposed to be humble and let everybody walk. 1:51 In a sense, doormats, right, they wash your feet, and when one manner of speaking if you kind of wipe your shoes on it, you know, and that's that's what Jesus would do. 1:59 And you know, that is why Matthew Todd our associate, slash minion, hear the podcast was one of the most distinguished Jessup graduates when one of our highest award he was you can just see there's just Biblical stuff dripping all over him. Right, 2:16 right. Yeah, that's right. He's an award winning graduate of Jessup for this last year. And the reason he's on the show for the last year, he's been our kind of associate producer, helping helping the show helping us with social media. Amen. 2:31 Amen. And finally, being the spur that we needed to actually get T shirts and we made the two years after he made the T shirts happen, 2:39 you can probably hear it, but I'm wearing it right now. Let me just give you a little sound a little sneak preview. 2:43 We heard that T shirt in the wind. Well, yeah, so you graduated. And where? Where are you going? What's life after Jessup? 2:53 So I got my degree in biology, and I am going to start pharmacy school in the fall and the University of Florida at their Orlando campus. So very excited about that. I'll be leaving in less than two months. 3:07 There you go. See, look at look what can happen with a Jessup grand now here on the West Coast, get a biology degree 3:15 and then go directly to what second string Promised Land Texas is first string but but Florida is pretty close. 3:24 Now I had to go I had to rank the promised lands, you know? 3:27 Yeah. Great. University of Florida pharmacy school. 3:32 That sounds good. Yeah. 30 minutes from Disney World, basically. Hey, there you go. Yeah, dealing drugs, 3:37 you're gonna have to be an official drug dealer. 3:41 But for my street cred for the for the podcast. I have to mention, I also graduated with a Bible minor. Very much like every single other exact transfer of Jessup, who graduates but so 3:53 I mean, you did win the award a graduation, you won our highest male Graduate Award, I 3:59 believe, right. Yeah. That's called the founder award, the founder or which means I'm, I guess that means I'm like William Jessup, but I've never met him. So hopefully, that's like a good thing. 4:09 You do get your name on a plaque somewhere. I think 4:13 it has John Jackson's thumbprint on it. Okay. I think I can maybe save that and sell it or something. Yeah, get 4:18 a piece of tape. You know, St. Peter's asking for that. I've heard at the pearly gates. 4:22 So I know he's like, Well, 4:25 like here, I'm a Founders Award. Because you embody the spirit of Bill Jessen. 4:30 Oh, wow. Yeah. I never even knew him. Did you guys ever meet the founder? No, no, I didn't assume 4:36 more. Yeah, it was son, his grandson, actually. Yeah. Yeah. So when you were hired here, Mark was was Bryce still president? Yeah. 4:45 It was it was his last year 2010 Wow. 4:49 I remember when I was first hired. I was walking across the old campus with Bryce Jessup and he said he was really I don't know if I should be saying this on the podcast, but he cuz I was really glad I was at Jessup because he wanted me to try to set some people theologically straight on campus. 5:06 Oh, there we go. He's talking about but coming in as the Enforcer, I 5:11 guess. 5:12 Yeah. And we'll assume that you did that, you know, I don't know. I believe it set him right. Or maybe they're gone now. And they've never been heard from again. Exactly. That is kind of enforcement. That's how it works. And I Bryce gave them kind of a wink. And then Rex is like, Alright, I'm gonna figure out what that means. Well, we 5:29 actually have some brutal faculty meetings back in the day, as far as professors yelling at each other about whether we were an Arminian or a Calvinist school. Oh, I remember of theology professor almost jumping up on a table and just screaming and everybody, because there was a little bit of Calvinists talk that he was very uncomfortable with. Oh, that was years ago, though. Yeah, the good thing is we don't do that. And I've 5:52 repented of that. 5:55 An earlier version. The bad thing is that, you know, maybe we don't take theology seriously enough to jump on tables and screaming at each other anymore. I've lost something. 6:05 Yeah, we've lost a little bit of the passion. Yeah, a little bit of the passion 6:08 and even read those stories, because supposedly, that's a pretty common thing with theology like meetings, they can get really heated about their, what they're talking about, there was someone talking about how the serpent would have moved before it slid on its belly, and somebody got mad, and at the accusation that supposedly it could bounce like a pogo stick, and they were getting really, really angry, and irate. And it's like, recorded somebody, like, typed down all the things they said, quote, 6:34 I got transcripts. 6:35 I did not know that. I didn't know the full knowledge that I had never happened. Yeah, definitely. Good. We 6:41 have. So as a snake could pogo stick before? Before the temptation? Yeah, 6:48 because the curse was that he now had this. 6:50 Yeah, maybe that's maybe that's what made him so intriguing to Adam and Eve that he just didn't. Yeah, you're like, Wait, what is this snake doing? Amazing. See theology? Well, I'm one of the purposes of the podcast is to help make theology a little bit, you know, more accessible, more accessible part of the conversation. So you're learning stuff. And just, you know, we did have a pretty amazing season, you know, looking back on the guests we were able to, to get, and it was our first season having an associate producer, student producer. So thank you, Maddie Todd, for all of your work. But even starting out at the gates, cause our seasons go from September to the end of June. And then July and August are always reruns. So we'll pull some of our best shows from season three. And we'll play him as reruns this summer sort of greatest? Yeah, exactly. And we were able to, we kind of started off season three with Caitlin shez, who's author of the liturgy of politics. And I think on that one I was, you were out of town. So I was able to actually, it was excellent. I think it's gonna be one of our one of our reruns, because she just had an amazing way of talking about that. For one, everything in our lives is political. So when you try to say like, No, I'm not trying, I'm not political. Almost every decision we make has, has some type of political ramification or, you know, and so it's like, hey, instead of distancing ourselves saying, okay, life is political. What does that mean? What does that mean to be a faithful Christian in in politics? And not not just in she kind of strays away from like, partisan politics, but just in politics? What does it mean to be a Christian and to be faithful in that, so really helpful. Went from Caitlin chest to Priscilla Pope Leveson, who we had her husband, Jack Lovcen on in her book, models of Revelation, our models, how we say that models revelation, because that's the Avery Dulles that she based it on models of evangelism. And I thought that was it was really helpful book because I had not thought of the different ways of evangelism in that way. And the categorization was good, and it also made me I am pretty skeptical of kind of the cold calling evangelism. Oh, yes. 9:31 I remember in seminary, we actually, we actually had to go to the beach and annoy people. I remember doing that. I think, yeah, I did it. I did it. And I did it. I did it. Yeah. We used to walk around basically, you know, with a question if I mean, you know, you know, the question, this is a nice goal, right? Yes. Like if, if you were to be run over by a bus Do you know? Like, that's the best question we can come up with 10:00 You have the best starter, 10:01 and I did in like summer camp, we would ask what what do you think happens when you die? And I remember specifically, someone just was like, my ashes are gonna be spread across the world. And that's the end of it and they just like walked away. I was like, well, at least he saw of it. Yeah. 10:15 He's confident. 10:18 However, we can demystify evangelism, because that's just one. 10:22 I think that's important. Yeah, she had a chapter on that. And, and it was kind of like, yeah, the, you know, I think because of my fear of kind of the cold calling, it also plays itself out in me maybe not bringing up Yeah, yeah, God enough when I could, you know, obviously, you know, with our professions, Rex, it kind of comes up. I mean, I guess you can be like, I teach history. Rama was like, Hey, I teach and they're like, Oh, what do you teach theology? You know, and they're like, Oh, okay. 10:53 Well, you know, depending on whether I want to have a conversation or not, with a seat meet on a plane, I can actually when the dreaded question comes up, what do you do? I can say two different things and be truthful, saying both things. I can say I'm a college professor, and that has implications but I can also say, I'm an ordained Southern Baptist pastor. Oh, yeah, that's usually that if you want to start a conversation stopper right there almost every time 11:18 you're like, I'm gonna put my headphones back in. 11:20 Oh, you got like the select for you that that's like a conversation starter that they like, suddenly just get into it, you know? 11:26 Yeah. Yeah. But it was, for me. Yeah. The chapter was was helpful. Like, hey, there's there is a place right. And there are I mean, here's the reason why. Why not only a Christian do many Mormons do it. I mean, I agree. You're, you're out there. So I thought that was yeah, I'd never really thought of evangelism. And it was always kind of nervous about this over evangelism, I guess. Yeah. And the way she broke it down and the models I thought, were really helpful to bring them back in. Then we had Terry Wildman on the show with the First Nations version translation of the New Testament that was so cool, which I've been doing my kind of devotion, sorry, devotion, flex, they're out of it. And it's just 12:13 they've been doing the same amazing, in fact, this morning, and I hadn't thought about that, that connection, but it's providential. Apparently, I actually finished the last chapter of John. And so the copy that I have of the First Nations version that he's that he's responsible for, is just the Gospels and acts and Ephesians. And so I just finished it up today. It's been really helpful for me, in fact, I actually have the Lord's Prayer in the First Nations version on my wall in my office here. That's great love how I love how he have this translated. 12:52 Yeah, it is because it talks about the corn and in the Buffalo maybe. Yeah, brings in like it brings in Yeah, marry 13:03 the good row cultural. Yeah. 13:04 Good road. wanna 13:05 walk the good. 13:07 Fun fact about Terry Wildman? He has a he has a connection with Sacramento. He was actually just in Sacramento a couple of weeks ago, staying at one of the board members at our churches. Oh, wow. She's She's worked for university for 30 Some years and he was doing a retreat. And he said he's going to be back in the Sacramento region doing maybe we can get him on the show again. Yeah, we could have him live on the live on the show. That would be that'd be great. We went from Terry Wildman. I mean, this is we went Kailyn shez Priscilla Pope Levison tear Wildman with the First Nations version to Dr. Lauren haarsma from Calvin College, Calvin University, in his book, which was very theological winded sin begin. It's interesting that you brought up the snake. Yeah, and the pogo stick the snake and the pogo stick. But it was really helpful to, you know, because in this conversation of theology and, or faith and science, you know, especially in terms of a doctrine of creation, is it's hard to understand and theologically, right, like some of the things that we're seeing in the fossil record and in, you know, in actual scientific data, like, I think he was helpful to say, we can't be afraid of that. And it's not that that shapes our, you know, or molds, our theology, but our theology should understand that and it's kind of like they can dialogue together 14:48 right now, one thing I really appreciate about this book and I actually went out and bought it after the after the pot because I really wanted to not just skim it, but you know, take a deep dive into it is I Think you probably remember me saying because actually, Matthew was in my Christian perspective classes last semester. So I might have said, I'm a broken record, I say the same thing over and over again, but haven't got same stick, same stick every time. Try to modify it if it doesn't work. But anyway, my ears. I probably said something like, there's some class. But, you know, with the science and faith thing, there's very few kind of bullet proof positions that you can have if you want to take both the biblical witness and the scientific consensus seriously, right. Yeah. And so you know, with them with age of the earth and that kind of thing. You do have certain questions that have to be answered about the first chapter of Genesis. But the second and third, is something that theistic evolutionists have to deal with too, because how do you actually get the fall into this? And how does that make sense from an older standpoint? Right. Right. There's no easy solutions to those things. Yeah. 15:58 Yeah. And that's what he's really kind of tackling that. Yeah. In the book tackling Okay, where does the fall right in right? Did it have to? Like, did Adam and Eve have to be the very first actually humans or hominids? Or were they in alignment, he gave a couple of different options that I think fit with the biblical text and also fit with current scientific research, which I thought was really helpful. Because it's, it's, it's unfortunate, and especially in terms of theology, where we could take a position as a church that then forces people when they go to a biology class, especially at just a state school or anywhere else, right. That means 16:46 we're gonna see at the University of Florida, yeah. 16:47 And we received Florida this no Christ in anywhere in that time, 16:50 right? Not at all. That we put them in a position to where they have to be either reject what they're hearing in class or reject the Bible. And it's like, and I think Dr. Aardsma did a good job of being like, hey, there's we don't have to reject these two. Can Yeah, yes. And we can learn what's the what is the theological principle that's being taught in Scripture? And, and how does that then help us approach things we see in the scientific data? Also noting that not just our scientific data isn't concrete, right. And there's still mystery and question and theory involved? Yeah. 17:34 And the landscape changes so rapidly. I mean, like things that we believe now we probably didn't believe 100 years ago, right. And we're not gonna maybe believe 100 years from now. Right? Should the Lord always growing upon what we 17:45 have to say that for the Lord, millennials, 17:49 for in terms of science and mean, as well, I love that actually, in that Christian perspective, class, there were so many questions. You had discussion questions about the intersection of faith and science, because I was like, This is my thing. And most people are like, Oh, I don't really know anything about science. Like I know all. 18:06 I know, we just defer to our resident expert, Matthew Todd. 18:08 Yeah. So Matthew, in your biology class, 18:12 you think about this. And so I got up my pulpit was like, Well, guys, I'm just kidding. Yeah. 18:17 Well, in that yeah, so that one might, that one might make a comeback on the on the summer reruns. We got four episodes that we do summer reruns, and we have 18:26 so many wonderful podcasts to choose from. 18:28 I know we really do. Think we are. We are getting close to 100 episodes. Wow. It's season four. We'll get we'll reach 100 episodes. So any plans for when that happens? I know we're sound effects. Fireworks. Yeah. 18:45 Well let the Patreon people decide. And if you haven't heard of Patreon, just you'll hear about at some point. Okay, 18:54 ah, oh, yeah, you will hear about Patreon at some point. 18:57 I mean, yeah, maybe they'll do something wild. Who knows? Yeah, it will be well, I'm expecting some jumping on tables and shouting, just like we kind of previewed at the beginning of the episode. 19:07 Okay. Yeah, shouting each other with your Patreon. Yeah, it's happening. Moved from that we did kind of a pretty good stretch of of having outside guests on. We had Hillary McBride on after that, and a psychologist and talking about the wisdom of your body, listen to your body. And I think it's so important, so important to to understand the embodied nature of human beings and that our actual physical bodies while it's not the totality of who we are, it is a part of who we are. 19:49 And it's really necessary to reclaim that phrase. Yeah, popular music, because right is listening to their bodies in ways that perhaps are not helpful. 19:57 Right. And that's very true and hips dome All right, so yeah, 20:01 it's like we have this fun, we have an interesting designation between, like, you know, we consider to be like the flesh that you can listen to, but it's also the body that we were given, you know, God came, or Jesus came to earth and a body. Yeah. And so for a reason, right? We're not meant to just hate it and just wish that we were just little souls like, in our movie soul that just float around. 20:21 Right, yeah, we are embodied. And, and we have to listen to what our body is saying in terms of health. And in terms of mental health, all that. I mean, like body doesn't just mean Yeah, I think sometimes in the church we talked about body has just like flesh, flesh versus spirit, right? Yeah. Flesh is bad. And we kind of, even if we don't explicitly say that, I think people catch that in church, right? And so they they end up, I was just listening to the songs sung from back in the 90s. That was kind of like an under underground song. But one of the lines said, I grew up. I was told when I was young, not to trust in my body. Oh, 21:07 that's from Bruce Cockburn. Yeah. And I actually love that song. Sort of last night, an amazing song. It is, hey, yeah, I knew Rex and 21:20 interesting thing about Bruce Kapur and you know, so he had moved to San Francisco. And started for the first time in a long time, he's always self identified as a Christian, but kind of doesn't want to have anything to do with the institutional church. Yeah. But um, started going to church with his wife in San Francisco. And they had some issues with getting musicians for their praise band. And yeah, nobody knew who he was. You know? Because if you don't know, you don't know. And the guy's kind of older now. So yeah, he's like, Well, you know, I'll play guitar with you. Yeah. And they didn't realize that a guy that's playing guitar in their praise band is like this famous singer songwriter. Right. So, you know, 21:59 that's amazing. Yeah, that's just, that's really cool. Well, I knew I could tell from the song that it was. And even that mine, that he had had some type of relationship with a church trying, you know, grew up learning not to trust my body. And then the next line is I've carried that burden all my life. And I thought, wow, that's really interesting. And we have to be careful about that in the church. Now, like what you were saying, Rex, like, there are, like listening to your body doesn't mean and I think Hillary did a good job of this doesn't mean you listen to whatever it says, right? You know, I mean, especially when we're talking about kind of what we would I'm doing air quotes here. Like, fleshly, you know, desires. But that's not necessarily like, body related. I mean, I think we have to make that distinction of our actual physical body versus what Paul would be talking about as flesh. 22:51 Right? Exactly. Yeah. Cuz your body is made of flesh. And so it's confusing in our English language. 22:57 Right? Right. Yeah, it is. And it's, and it is confusing, because the Greek that Paul's using literally just means flesh. So and we have to kind of, you know, we go back and forth. Okay, do we, you know, the NIV I think calls it sinful nature. But then we're like, Hey, that's not what the Greek word so then it's like, well, flesh, but flesh doesn't really help us. Because it's not literally the pink stuff, you know, underneath your skin that Paul's talking about. So I thought that was that was really helpful. And I think particularly, her book was helpful. I feel like there is a big focus on the body in culture. And some good some bad, right? But I think it's, it's a focus of, hey, we have to, we have to learn how to live in our bodies in your bodies. And I think it's also helpful. As you get older, I'm getting older and you have to listen to your body right body can't do the same things you could do when you were 20. So what 23:54 is the gray your beard sustained? Yeah, 23:56 exactly. The beard. You know, the gray. What's that? Like, guys? I don't even now it's just more wisdom. 24:04 Just more of any, 24:05 I'm one step closer to playing Santa Claus. That is my life goal, My life goal. We move from there and did a little bit of the advent calendar. I think we're always you know, one of the things Rex and I love to do is bring in kind of church calendar and liturgical practices. I'm really, really drawn to that. We were also able to have one of our we actually over the course of this season, we had two of our psychology profs on and on, but we started with Melanie Trowbridge. And we just talked about kind of mental health in the church and how the church doesn't always approach mental health in a gentle way, in an empathetic way. And just really important, especially I mean, more and more news reports coming out me know of a Just the amount of kind of a mental health crisis among college students among younger but also among adults, I mean, adults are not immune in any way. And what's it like 25:13 over half of folks are going to have at some point in life, a verifiable mental, right health episode of some sort, right? Nice is ubiquitous. 25:24 And it seems like maybe on the church side, it goes back to the body thing, sometimes we, we deny the physical or neurological part of that. And if we focus only on the spiritual, I think, obviously, I'm a pastor as well, focusing on the spiritual is important. But we also have to focus on the physical and the neurological, I was just reading an article that said, you know, it was talking about the, the hidden cause you're not cause but like, a hidden problem with mental health, especially among high school students. And it was sleep. 26:02 Oh, totally. It was totally my wife's a nurse practitioner. And that's her mom's mantra right now. It's just like, you know, it's how many hours of sleep do you get? Especially when she's dealing with high school students? Because, you know, apparently, until you're 21, you still like go to pediatrics. But anyway, yeah. Um, it's like, you know, so how many hours you know, right, when you get right, it's just an issue. Yeah, it's an issue. 26:26 It's crazy how like, so whenever someone especially like Trowbridge, I've been in summer classes, she's amazing. And that one of the biggest things you can do to kind of help your general health is just sleep, diet and exercise, and how people will buckle those and sleep honestly, it seems like it's almost like, you don't get the choice as much, because you're just forced to work late, you're forced to wake up early to go do other things. And so that one, it seems hard. And diet sometimes can be like, you know, money restrictive, and things like that. But it's, it's funny, because relatively speaking, those are somewhat simple. So the thing is just, you know, closing your eyes and going, right, right and exercises, it can be something like going on a walk and but it can be so difficult sometimes. Yeah, to get all three of 27:08 those. Yeah, it's interesting. I think that's a good picture of life, often the best thing for you is the simple thing. And the simple thing is often the hardest thing to do exactly. I think it's, it's we would rather like no, I'm gonna go to the gym for four hours. And it's like, why don't you just take a 15 minute walk? Just start there. Start there. And you know, take your phone out of your bedroom, turn your computer off and be able to go sleep I mean, 27:38 park in the last space in the parking lot, right yourself have to actually walk a few extra steps. Yeah, here's the things Yeah. 27:45 And diet. Yeah, I don't know. Just saying like something like diet can be financially restrictive. But also when you look at it there are from pretty affordable fruits and vegetables. 27:57 Vegetables live in a food desert, though, and there's all sorts of issues with that. Yeah, nope, an error. Yes, 28:02 very true. 28:04 Very true. In the same way what you were talking about, there's like a difference between going all the way paleo or something like that only go into like extremes Yeah, and just cutting out some sugar like maybe you eat like seven candy bars a day eat like five or four or one or none? That's a good that's a really good good there's smaller things you can do you know, each seven candy bar confession time. The truth is out there not really bars, but Reese's are, are my weakness. 28:34 And when they're only little cups, thing, for those no problem, they're fine. We also had sociologists malicious song on the show from West marsh and Professor Westmark talking about the role of technology and the role of devices. And, and part of that was, you know, the devices that keep us from sleep that can actually keep us from health, you know, now, and I thought it was yeah, really helpful book I keep going back to it when I find myself staring at a screen too long or being caught in this kind of triple screen prison of TV, your phone and, and, and not and what I liked about her approach was it wasn't a hey, you need to throw all these things. Go it's kind of that extreme mood that I had she had it is a like, have habit play a proper role in your life. But also be aware of maybe how you're using it to distract yourself, how you're using it, where it actually is impeding you from maybe being healthy and things like that, you know, so I thought it's we're only going to have to talk about that more and more as as all of our lives are more automated. Now that's not to say that there weren't problems in the 1800s. Right? I mean, I think that's the kopien. Future. Yeah. Like that's the that's my always beef with kind of a technology thing is that yeah, if you just go Luddite doesn't solve all your problems. And, and technology can be used really helpful. I mean, I listened to a ton of audiobooks every year. 30:20 Yeah, it's podcast. There's a Jessup thing. I love listening to it. It's yeah, 30:24 see, you could listen to this podcast. couldn't do that. 30:27 While you take exercise and become healthier. Yeah, actually, yeah. Which will help you sleep better actually, 30:33 literally listen to while you're exercising, wasn't to read for you go to bed. We are the solution. We are the solution, 30:43 we'll have a line of pajamas in a while. 30:47 Oh, hey, all right, we've got a few more few more to go through, we're gonna have another one of our own professors on he's in our leadership and division part of my school, Derek Zond, with his book, looking at how to be Christian and not be a jerk, which is sad that we would have to have a book on that, but it is so true. And it was a helpful, like, Hey, you can be faithful to Scripture, you can be faithful Christian. And, and in fact, I would maybe even go as far to say, if you are a faithful Christian, you shouldn't be a jerk like that would exclude being a jerk. Right? Like, like if you were taking on the characteristics of Christ. And gentleness, humbleness, love, joy, peace, all of those. You wouldn't, but yet we struggle with that. 31:43 Yeah, I find it encouraging because sometimes, I don't know why. Maybe it's just something about some people have hung around who aren't Christians, you get this feeling sometimes that inherently by being Christian, maybe you're being a jerk. There's something about Christianity. And that's not the case. Nothing about like sharing, just saying that you're a Christian is like, in any way rude to people. There's nothing about our faith that is like jerky. It's just the way that you can kind of act and you can be vindictive in certain ways. It's a more behavior. So something like inherently about Christ, that then means that well, if I'm going to serve you this, I gotta be a little bit of a jerk to people. Like, that's not required. 32:16 I think some people will think that though. Okay, everything's in as a guy, 32:23 which is why it's good to have like that book as a reminder, I thought, 32:26 yeah. Yeah. So good. So helpful. After that we were able to have I'm gonna call them a good friend, since you've been on the show a couple times. But Kelly Capek theologian from Georgia, and his book was also on body, right? You're only human how your limits reflect God's design and why that's good news. And I've probably used more from that book in my classes right away than maybe some of all of the books from from this season, I thought it was just, again, really helpful for helping us understand what it means to be human. I've told the maybe partly because it's a little awkward. And so sometimes it's good in class to throw an awkward story in there to wake people up, right, because they're like, Wait, what is happening? But the whole, like, I think I leave out what Kelly Capek, how he starts it, but the whole stare at your belly button. And what does that teach you? Right? Like, like, what does that teach you about you? That means you you were connected to someone else at some point? Like you did not create yourself? You did not, you know, the thought, Wow, that's so. So, so good. And so simple is right there on your own body be like, Wow, I was connected. Meaning we're connected as humans, and he goes into kind of body and the role of the body and listening to the body as well, which, which I really appreciate. I really appreciate it. A lot of what Colin Kaepernick has written and good that we can call him a friend of the show. 34:06 Yeah, I was kind of like all sad that he ended up ditching the former name, which was the theology of navel gazing. For that, yeah, 34:14 he Well, I think, editors sometimes the title committee got rid of that. They were like, No, we're not doing a theology of navel gazing. Yeah, but that will be my upcoming book. Oh, great. Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, might as well take that multiple you can get Yeah, exactly. Now that we now that we have it, then we had our scholar who did our, the annual theology spring lecture, Dr. Thomas Reynolds. Up from Canada, he actually wasn't able to then come on campus. But he was able to do that remotely and then obviously join us remotely looking at disability theology of disability and and the church and how the church and when at gained from that one from working in a church. I've thought so much about that, and how, how it's not just we are being accommodating to those with disabilities, but rather how we are including them as as a vital and just normal part of our community is not like, oh, we'll put up or we'll make no, you are a part of our community. And, and that's so important that involves architecture that involves setting things up, but also just involves like, hey, like we are a family together and and we want to embrace that. And I feel like that conversation is, is rising more and more of hey, the church and disability what does that look like? And and how can the church be better at at reaching out? Then we were we had Dr. Aaron Ambrose on to kind of highlight and we did this kind of a two parter. We had Matt on later, Matthew Gatchell to look at, we did we started with toxic masculinity. And, and in some ways, that wasn't necessarily the, what we went into maybe the podcasts that I bought, but that kind of was what emerged because it is looking at, hey, how is the church? And how is culture highlighted masculinity? And how has that? How's that influenced the church and how we talk about what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman? And what are some things we need to change and when were in the church has been rocking, you know, over this last year, we just had more and more stories and more and more continue to come out of where a an incorrect view of, of masculinity has gotten church leaders in trouble and we look at the Maurice Hill and all of that, and a lot of it is built on this. This incorrect idea of what it means to be a man and and so we were able to follow that one up. I thought Dr. Ambrose did an amazing job. 37:20 One more thing that Dr. Ambrose, we actually went to that conversation, as Mark just mentioned, wants to talk a little bit about something else. But as soon as she spent a couple of minutes with two men here suddenly the whole conversation ended up with toxic man basket. Yeah, 37:35 yeah. Do satisfy other who were probably. Well, I do What are you gonna say? You gotta say, we're probably. I'm just saying we're not. 37:48 You guys are men. We are man. 37:51 We have the beer session. Yeah, we have beards. I don't even feel like that's true. Sorry. Sorry, guys. Sorry, man. No, we had Dr. Brad Harper from Multnomah University, which I thought was one Yeah, one of our more powerful podcasts of the season, looking at his book space at the table. Conversation between an evangelical theologian and his gay son in sight, it was just so helpful way to frame this conversation. I mean, the conversation on human sexuality within the church can be so heated, and so divisive. That I thought it was helpful to say, hey, let's let's talk about the other elements of this story, not just well, how does God define human sexuality? And Brad holds a traditional view of human sexuality, and a traditional view of marriage. He also wrestled with, okay with those views, how do I love my son? How am I in my son's life? And I thought the book just sort of did a good job of balancing that, that there's more, there's more questions involved. And and you can answer the question of maybe what does the Bible say about human sexuality? But you also have to answer the question, what does the Bible say about loving others, as you love yourself, loving your neighbor reaching out? Right? Like, it's not one or the other? It has to be both. And I think Ben Harper did a great job of really helping us helping us there. Then we had a local local pastor Kevin Adams, talking about baptism. And, and again, like, in some ways, this book on baptism was similar to the book on evangelism when I went into it being like, okay, yeah, baptism, part, it's part within these get in the book, and I think as Kevin described it, I was like, Oh, wow, like, I just saw the greater importance not that it wasn't. I mean, it's an important sacrament in our church and it's, but just seeing kind of kind of just a greater focus and what role it can play in someone's spiritual Life I think is really a great book and a really important realization. And that one was able to that one came right on the heels of me having a couple of like interesting baptism stories in my own life that I had to do. And baptizing neighbor and she ended up passing away two weeks after baptizer baptized her with a red solo cup on her couch because she couldn't get underwater. She was stage four, cancer and was passing away. But she'd never been baptized and wanted to be baptized. And then on Easter Sunday, so this would have happened after the episode. On Easter Sunday, actually Easter Saturday. Guy from who was kind of connected to our church, he's struggled with addiction and been in and out. He called me up and wanted to meet at the church. So I was like, alright, you know, and Friday are good Friday service. We filled the baptismal because we were gonna do baptisms on Sunday, even though no one had signed up. But after our good Friday service, we were just like, You know what, take them off. That's yeah, let's fill this, I think, you know, our Lead Pastor Richard was like, I feel like God's name was filler. And so it filled it. And then I met him, and I met this guy and our sanctuary on Saturday. And he was just talking about wanting to change, you know, wanting and wanting to be baptized. And, but he was, he was a little bit skeptical and nervous about coming on Sunday in front of, you know, big Easter crowd. And I was like, hey, it's full right now. And so him and I just him and I in our sanctuary, in our ice cold. We didn't turn the heater on yet. So it was ice cold baptismal. Just did a baptism right there. Yeah, it was just Yeah, it was just really cool. Really cool experience. And I think, probably having read Kevin's book leading up to that made me think about that differently than I would have in the past, 42:04 when I was pastoring. I just grew up in a church where, you know, baptism was obviously important, but we wanted to stray so far away from any sort of sacramental theology surrounding that in our sort of free church tradition Baptist Church, that it was literally just something you tack on to the end of the service, and there was just, you know, not much going on there. Right. And I really felt when I was pastoring, that this is such an important thing without embracing necessarily full full on sacramental ism. It's still just really, really important. And so we would always have the whole service basically. It'll be based on what was happening in baptism, the whole thing? 42:49 Yeah, that's, that's so good. I mean, it's helpful and I think particularly helpful for evangelical communities. Who kind of post reformation and most that have been Yeah, so nervous of anything that strikes of sacramental ism, that it's a this is an important part of of the journey. And the symbolism is so important to symbolism. So important. We were then able to have in this book has still been coming back to my mind. Sociologist George Yancey from Baylor 43:23 and interesting thing about Georgia MC, it's not often that Jessup thinks actually gets a leg up on Christianity today, but we scooped them. Oh, we am on our podcast talking about his book about a couple of months before Christine today actually reviewed it 43:37 every go take that. JT and CT. Yeah, maybe maybe they listened to the episode. And we're like, we need to get that book could be almost. But it was, I feel like it's been a helpful addition to this conversation on race in the church. And, and I think Georgia does a good job of, and I'm a sucker for the Middle Way, right? Or the third way. This this idea of, hey, conversations to the extremes of race on both sides have not been helpful and have not produced reconciliation. So why how do we all come to the table? We all have a voice. And we can know what is good. And we can also say like, Hey, that maybe takes it too far, one way or the other. And I just, it was a helpful, I think a book that and that I think the church could really use because I think sometimes particularly in the evangelical church, a lot of times in the white Evangelical Church, anything that talks about race is being you know, labeled as something that it's not and it's been rejected. And it's like why we have to have a conversation and we have to be in this conversation. And I think Nancy's book is a is a good way to move beyond. That's kind of his title beyond racial division. And to in that moving beyond, right, it's not a moving beyond that, that denies racism or denies that this is happening. What is the book that that understands that it's happening, but it's like how do we move to conversation? How do we move to reconciliation part of moving to it is recognizing that it is happening, right? And, and kind of the repent and lament elements. We were able rounding this off. As we finish up our season finale, we had Cameron Wilson, our English professor on the show, talking about the importance of literature, check that one out, then we were able to have as Guinness right show as well, during the great quest, which that was, I was amazing. I've been reading knives for a lot, large part of my life. And so it was amazing to have a conversation with him. Particularly to hear his life he had such an amazing life story. That that I think was helpful, especially as he frames this book on the meaning of life. What does that look like? And I think we're all there in our lives. Sometimes we go back to it several times, especially when you get to midlife. Or a second stage of life. You're like what is the meaning? You know, I thought I knew it when I was 20. 46:24 I obviously have it down. I'm never gonna change my mind. Clearly. You pretty much know everything. I'm gonna know. Right? Yeah, I just finished. So yeah. 46:31 Yeah, right. Nothing else learn till you hit 40. Then it all changes. Now we had Cynthia shape rally it on the show for a final time as a William Jessup University professor, but possibly not the final, but not the final never, never the never final time we'll be able to, we'll be able to get a hold of her at Baylor. But we're really proud of her and happy for her. She goes to Baylor goes to the big leagues of biblical research. Yeah. And we can we'll be able to tell people we knew her one day. Yeah, we had her in the studio. And 47:07 her best work, of course, was done when she was at Jessup. And so yes, it's gonna be anti climactic. 47:13 Exactly. Just kidding. 47:16 And, and then we had Maddie Gotcha. I've kind of references to Amanda Gatchell on to kind of do a follow up of the toxic masculinity be like, Okay, what is biblical masculinity? You know, and especially, and I think what I have wrestled with and wrestle on the show is like, what are elements in Scripture that are gender specific? And what are not because I think there's so much that is not gender specific, just all of us as Christians need to. And actually, I think if we focus there, that helps us become better men and women. Rather than just trying to be a better man versus a woman. What about being being more Christ like, and as a man, that makes me a better man? 48:04 I think that was one of our longest podcasts too, because we just couldn't stop talking. I mean, right three of the say that all thought this is such an important topic and right in what to do, right and better with that. 48:14 Yeah, it's it's important. And now we're at our season three finale. Three seasons. Moving up. Closing in on 100 episodes. Looking forward to season four as well. Any plans so you're moving to Florida over the summer? Any? Any summer plans while people are? 48:36 Lots of weddings? I got two more. I think that's pretty common for once you graduate. Yeah. 48:41 Once you get everybody's like we're graduated wedding here. Yeah. Yeah. colleges 48:45 that are similar to ours. Yeah. 48:47 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Christian school. You finish it up. And then yeah, so I had to throw a Christian bachelor party too. And that's that was pretty nice story that you can tell because it was we had a devotional, you know, and I was like, there we go. Is Christian There 49:00 you go. That is maybe some coffee involved. Was there some coffee? It was no, I don't like is 49:05 that before after you guys hit the bars? Well, yeah. It was make us feel bad. 49:12 coffee bars. 49:15 The candy bars, right. Like I said, it's definitely day to day until we let loose 49:21 from that very, very nimbly there. 49:24 I brought it up. So I had to expect to be able to dodge Yeah, that's 49:27 true. My Buffy Rex. 49:30 Actually, interestingly enough, we my wife and I are probably going well, planning on spending a week in Orlando. Not to see me you know, not necessarily just to visit our esteemed minion but to go to a conference there and hopefully spent some time with a cousin that lives in Hilton Head and Oh, for years and I've never been there so beautiful to Charleston Savannah, and Some places like that, that as a history person, yeah, you know, wanted to see and never have seen. So we're planning on doing a little bit of 50:07 the South side that might see a little bit of the south of California. So doing some beach camping and a conference in San Diego, which there are worse places. 50:20 So yeah. So dogs the mouse like he is, 50:23 yeah. Is that Yeah, yeah, I will continue to dodge the mouse until the mouse cost less. Then probably getting back to Indiana season family. So yeah. And then also both you and Rex and I are teaching summer classes. So we'll be Well, we hope you enjoyed season three. I hope you enjoyed this kind of little recap, if you hadn't kind of seen those episodes, maybe go back and check them out. We will be pulling for those to do some a rerun. So we hope you enjoy kind of these reruns of highlighting some of these really important episodes and really important issues. And we're looking forward to season four and kind of continuing the conversation and continuing to make you think more deeply about theology and your life. 51:13 Congratulations on making it to the end of the podcast. Be sure to follow us on Instagram @jessupthink where we'll be posting updates and some behind the scenes content. We would love to hear your thoughts on the episode and engage with any questions you might have to leave us a comment or email us at think@jessup.edu. Our aim is to provide a framework for further reflection and deeper exploration of these important topics. And you want to support the show. Leave us a review on iTunes. We can reach more people. Until then, I'm Matthew Todd outro reader extraordinaire, and this has been Jessup Think. 51:45 If you're interested in learning more about Jessup, please visit us at jessup.edu. William Jessup is the premier fully accredited four year Christian University in the Sacramento area offering over 60 academic programs in undergraduate and graduate studies. Designed to see each student whipped and transformed into leader they're called to be as go don't forget to hit subscribe and share so you never miss an episode. Thanks for joining us for Jessup Think.

Professor Matt Godshall joins the show to explore what true masculinity looks like. This episode expands on our previous session toxic masculinity.

Esteemed Hebrew Scriptures professor Cynthia Schafer-Elliott joins the show before she heads out to join the biblical studies department at Baylor University.

Author Os Guinness joins the show to talk about his new book, The Great Quest: Invitation to an Examined Life and a Sure Path to Meaning.

English professor Cameron Wilson joins the show to discuss the importance of good literature in pursuit of a deeper faith.

Sociologist George Yancey joins the show to discuss his new book Beyond Racial Division: A Unifying Alternative to Colorblindness and Antiracism.

Pastor Kevin J. Adams joins the show to chat about his new book, Living Under Water: Baptism as a Way of Life.

Dr. Brad Harper, theology professor from Multnomah University, joins Mark and Rex to talk about his book which he co-wrote with his son, Drew, entitled Space at the Table: Conversations Between an Evangelical Theologian and His Gay Son.

Dr. Erin Ambrose joins the show again to chat with Mark and Rex about gender stereotypes in the church and the harm they cause.

Mark and Rex follow up on their conversation with theologian Kelly Kapic by discussing the shocking truth that God not only loves us but God really likes us as well.

Scholar Thomas E. Reynolds joins the show to talk about how disability is handled in the church and how the church can foster a more open and hospitable community.

Theologian Kelly Kapic joins us again to talk about our new book You're Only Human: How Your Limits Reflect God's Design and Why That's Good News.

Jessup professor Derek Zahnd joins the show to talk about his recent book Hope for Unity and Diversity: How To Be A Christian Without Being A Jerk.

Sociologist Felicia Song from Westmont College joins the show to discuss her new book Restless Devices: Recovering Personhood, Presence, and Place in the Digital Age.

One of Jessup's beloved Psychology professors, Melanie Trowbridge, joins Mark and Rex to examine the growing mental health crisis among young adults and how the Church needs to respond.

Mark and Rex discuss the importance and beauty of the Advent season as well as the significance of the structure of the Church year. This episode is a wonderful way to thoughtfully begin the Holiday season and and excellent frame for the coming year.

Psychologist and award winning researcher Hillary McBride explores the broken and unhealthy ideas we have inherited about our bodies in her new book The Wisdom of Your Body: Finding Healing, Wholeness, and Connection through Embodied Living. TRANSCRIPT 0:01 Everyone welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore, and your co host Rex. Rex on the show today, we have Hilary McBride. She's a psychologist and an award winning researcher. And she's going to explore the broken and unhealthy ideas we've inherited about our bodies in her new book, The wisdom of your body, finding healing, wholeness, and connection through embodied living. And even though in our podcast, I guess we are disembodied voices, I think we're going to learn that embodiment is a very, very important part of our spirituality, so important in so important to our life in the world, and our life with God, I really hope you enjoy the show, I 0:49 want to start by saying thank you so much for joining us on the show, and really excited to talk about your book. And a main thread that that kind of connects your book is this idea of embodiment. And so I'd love to just start there, and have you kind of tell our listeners what, what is embodiment? And how does that kind of connect the themes of your book. Yeah, that's a great place to start, because the word embodiment is thrown out so much these days. And yet having it clearly defined as something that I find doesn't happen as often as it's used. So I think a great as it again, as an academic, I love starting with defining the terms. 1:29 We most of us hear the word embodiment when we think about someone living up their values. So somehow the things that matter up here are kind of up in their head or in flashed and the way that they move through space and time how they are with people how they occupy space. But the the way that I'm using embodiment, and the principle that moves through, like you said, that weaves together, the book is just a little different than that. It's, it's about the felt experience of being a body. So not just being a mind that is carried around by a body, which is how most of us think about ourselves in a western context, particularly those of us who have advanced education and whatnot, there is this kind of over identification, over identification with the mind or our cerebra reality. So embodiment is our way of, of acknowledging that we are also a body, in fact, maybe we're even more a body, but that way of being in space is not something that we think of as ourself. So embodiment, is both the felt and lived experience of being a body engaging with the world, right? We our bodies, in social contexts, but also the the redistribution of identity to be able to say my body is, is not something just that I have a thing. But there is something in my body that actually is me that makes up who I am. And we can start to get into the weeds a little bit with that if, if you'd like naturally there, is there some pushback that people give, when we say like, well, I am my body, because we've spent most of our lives in a western context, trying to subdue the body, to conquer the body to have mind over matter. So people don't like that so much. 3:16 Right, right. Yeah, this is this is where we're all about getting in the weeds. 3:22 Because that's when that is important. I mean, I think is an interesting place to understand the the idea of getting away from a kind of mind body dualism, to an understanding of I am my body. And I work with students. And sometimes when I say that to students, I can see them kind of squirming like, wait, I'm not. What does it mean to identify with my body or to to say the phrase, I am my body. And there's this, this push back. And I think, maybe a pushback of, of connecting identity with embodiment. We could say we identify, maybe when the church do we identify with our soul, you know, we get preached, this is who you are. And so it's hard for us to connect those two. But it but it seems so vitally important, because we are our bodies more than have a body and I like how you make that distinction in the book. Yeah, one of the first things I actually thought when I was just skimming, the first couple of chapters of the book was, 4:34 you know, the fact that at least the theological tradition that I come from the church denominational tradition that I come from, has never really sort of chucked off the specter of Gnosticism and there's this, this mind body thing and so you know, mind or spirit or flesh or it's all super platonic, is somehow more real and and there's just something about our bodies that is, is less than 5:00 And so we get uncomfortable when we start talking about things like embodiment or or actually that being, you know, a constituent part of our identity, foreign part of our identity. Yeah. I think we've been told explicitly, you're not your body and you shouldn't be your body because your body is bad. I mean, how many different ways can we have it said, I have an infinite number. Apparently, because I have so many different seasons of my life, I've been told your body is sinful, your flesh is bad, you need to conquer the flesh in order to achieve said directly like this or not, like achieve some sort of superior spirituality, or you're not tied down by the limits of the constraints of being a body. So there's that side of it, where we're actually explicitly told specifically in faith contexts, this is this is a barrier to your holiness. This is a barrier to your evolution as a spiritual being. And then there's the other branch of it, which is for people whose bodies have been 6:03 the place of profound suffering for people whose bodies have 6:10 been marginalized, oppressed, objectified, made to be unsafe, saying I am not my body has been a survival strategy, it has been the most powerful way to say I can escape into the furthest reaches of my mind where nobody can have. 6:29 Exactly yeah, so we see both sides of it right to say I am my body makes us squirm, because it in some ways, it goes against so much of what our faith tradition has taught us, but also, it might actually feel threatening to some people because it causes them to then again, identify with the place where their pain has been. So I see the complexity of saying this, and I want to nod to all of the bodies that have been feeling the lived realities of the traumas of what we do to bodies, and have tried to escape that as a way to survive. 7:07 Yeah, it's important, it seems like many theologians, particularly black theologians, have been recognizing that in several decades leading up of understanding the role of the body and faith in the role of the body in our experience. And And interestingly, in maybe Oh, kind of white Eurocentric theology, there's this there's this underlying thing of, hey, our maybe our bodies are supreme, and so we we have to then disregard disregard the flesh, disregard the body, but it's, it's completely approached in a different way, culturally. And, and we learn that in the church. And I think that's yeah, it makes us struggle with recognizing our body and identifying with our body, right? 8:03 And maybe help us walk through that, to in what ways are maybe how are we our body? How can we how can we understand identity and body better? Well, I like to go back to when we think about nature and nurture, and how, of course, we now know that it is always both, that we show up in this world as a body that is the first place that we experience the world through, we think about I've got a three month old daughter, and I'm watching her, put everything in her mouth starting to do that, right so that the body being the locus of the self experience, it is the place in the playground of existence. And we know that from the beginning, everything that we encounter through the world we encounter through our body. And it is over time that we slowly start to lose that or for some people, if there's a really significant trauma, maybe leaving the body happens sooner. But we know we're all born knowing from from the if that's really it. This is our birthright, our mother tongue to speak language of our body. That is how we interact with the world. And we get feedback from social contexts about what that's like the color of our body, the way we move our body, the size of our body, the level of ability of our body. And that shapes the narratives that we have about ourself. We call this Interpersonal Neurobiology in the field that I'm in but the idea that our interactions with other people shape our felt experience of ourselves inside. And so the construct of individualism starts to really, really dissolve when we look at what's going on in our brain body systems in social contexts. But we have this narrative that we carry around inside of ourselves that is really the the conglomerate of all of the stories that have been projected back to us about how we show up in space. And as much as I might at this point, be able to identify myself by my name or by 10:00 My written work or by the sound of my voice, there is no question that people who know me will see me walking in the door, my friends, my family, my colleagues, whatnot, will see my face will see the way that I walk as they walk in the door and know that it's me. So we in our kind of modern world can have these forays into this embodiment in a way that seems to be well supported on social media. And like I was saying in the written word, but the truth is, you are known by how your body moves through space. And assumptions are made about you based on how you move again, your size, your shape, your level of ability, the color of your skin, and your gender identity and how you share and express your affection with other bodies. assumptions are made about you, and and those shape, what it feels like to be you in the world. So we have kind of the projection on our body that shapes identity, and how much we identify or not with those projections. And then we also have the felt and lived experience from the inside out of being being in flashed. So I know it sounds simple, but all of our senses are the way that we interact with the world and our senses are bodily, they're not intellectual, they're felt from the ground up the bottom up, and they move up to shape our cognition. So and this will be kind of the last point I say, On this note, we in psychology have a long tradition of over identifying with cognition as the seat of the self. But we know based on how the structure of the brain is created, that actually, emotion and interoceptive cues, these things that come again, from the ground up, are what shapes so much of our cognition. So although we think of ourselves as thinkers, the thinking is really the dumping ground of the felt and lived experience on a sensory and affective level. 11:57 And there's this sort of symbiotic relationship, I've always felt between, you know, the mind and the body anyway, when whenever I'm feeling anxious, and this has happened almost all my life, in fact, I was going to try to get some free therapy here on the podcast, but yeah, it literally has happened all my life, and I get anxious, even if even if I can't identify the source of the anxiety. It could be just global, it could be whatever, right? I'll, I'll feel it in part of my body. And in, I almost can't help that. And it's, 12:31 and it's interesting. So when I go through a day where I'm not anxious, or I'm distracted in another way, so I'm not, you know, thinking about whatever the source of my anxiety is, and suddenly the pain, the aches, the whatever, that's localized in a part of my body, I call it picking on myself, I've done that sort of forever, just sort of goes away. And then I'm kind of shocked. It's like, well, that's not hurting, right? 12:54 Because there's actually not anything, I don't know physically wrong there. But there's this connection. Yeah. And I, it's, it's wild, isn't it like this is the one that will blow my mind, probably till the day that I die. We experience proprioceptive memory. So based on the position of our spine, and our the movements of our limbs and how we are relative to the ground into gravity, we can store and remember memories without ever moving up into our cognitive awareness. So we can encounter things posture, really, that remind us of traumatic, scary enjoy, or enjoyable events. And then we can have the emotional response that correlates to those experiences without us ever actually knowing what's going on up here. So our bodies can be sensitized to not just posture, but environments, sensory cues, like smell smell, goes, instead of it being processed through a few different loops before it goes to the motion center of the brain and actually goes directly there. There's a direct connection between olfactory bulb and the amygdala response response. So what that means is, without us ever thinking about it, we can be noticing and remembering things and our body can be reacting to protect us to keep us safe. And we have no idea what the cue is. So this is the this is something that happens often for people when they come into therapy. 14:18 I'm having a reaction I don't know why, without us ever realizing their body on some levels connecting to what's going on around us is picking things up and is telling the truth about probably something that was dangerous for us in the past. But because we over identify as cognitive beings, if we don't have a narrative that we like to understand about it, we feel disoriented by our body's reactions and blame our body instead of going oh, my body is so wise and so smart. She he they are picking up something in the past that was dangerous for me and trying to protect me. 14:53 Do you think it works the other way too? Like like like, you know, like peak experiences are important things that are 15:00 You know, beneficial, I mean, I know sometimes I'll just, you know, get a whiff of something and I'm just slammed back 30 years, could it? I can't help it. It just happens. And you're just right there again, maybe thinking about something that I haven't thought about consciously or deliberately for ever. But it's just, it's almost, it's almost immediate, and is through my sense, yes, his bodily senses. It's just this immediate thing. You're so right. And that I'm so glad you mentioned that. Because I think it's really easy when we start talking about embodiment, and being in the body in the way that the body reacts. To talk about the things that are hard, the trauma, the anxiety, the panic, the pain, the illness, I mean, all of the things that go on, that make it hard to be in our bodies. But I think what you're saying is really important here, which is that our bodies are not just places that store trauma, our bodies are also places, or vibrancy and passion and sensuality, and connection and empathy and deep joy and vibrancy. And I mean, think about a laugh, like what is a laugh except your body having so much joy inside of it, that it has to expel waves of sound outwards, reverberate around to signal to your community, something awesome is going on over here. Like, it's incredible that our bodies can do this. And I mean, as you're saying that I met, I'm at my parents house right now, as I was telling you, when we started the interview, and the smell of walking into my parents house and the smell of the baking around Thanksgiving, and like all of the memories that come back with that, or you can hear a song and all of a sudden feel like you're on that first date that you were on again 20 years ago or whatever it is like our we're storing joy and pleasure just as much as we're storing pain and trauma. Yeah, yeah, definitely. For me, it is downy fabrics. Okay, when I smell there, at my grandparents house in Indiana, the door, you would go in walked right by the washing machine, the washer and dryer. So when you walk into the house, it always smelled like fabric softener. So that smell just literally takes me right back to my grandma's house, which was a place of warmth, love and safety. There's definitely a commercial for Downey sponsored this this season. Yeah, you're gonna get loads of Danny in the mail. No, I think what, what can be really cool about that, too, is when we start to think about embodiment, in in a very intentional way. When we are paying attention to the cues that our body is giving us that are associated with comfort and warmth and pleasure and ease. We can intentionally access those, by stimulating ourselves are stimulating our senses in ways that bring us back. They're so Rexy we're saying, right, okay, we've got these sensations in the body that feel overwhelming. And if we're distracted, maybe we don't notice the sensations. But we can intentionally go smell something or go listen to a song or go do something that's associated with ease as a way of telling your body Hey, actually, you're safe right now. Right? It's okay, so in my keepsake boxes, I actually have some old old bottles of cologne that I actually wore, like 40 years ago, and every once in a while, if I want to take myself back, and you got to be careful with this stuff. Right? I can just unscrew that thing. And just it's like, oh my gosh, you know, and, you know, obviously, if it's a good memory, it's a deliberate thing to try. Yes. You know, access that memory and and then of course, you know, though, the song stuff actually will tell the students sometimes it's like, you know, I understand that it's this music you would think it's just ridiculous. And actually right now, it probably is right. But you know, I will roll up my windows and put on you know, these things from from 3040 years ago, because it's a time of my life that and this of course is a you know, a sensory thing to this. Oh, yeah. And, and the hearing like the smelling just, it provides immediate access to some to some good memories and you feel yourself groove in the windows are down. Yeah. Well, my music the windows are down too much, right. 19:14 So that's what's going on when I pull up next to you leaving. 19:18 Like feeling it? Yeah. 19:21 In regards this is kind of making connection for me in regards to body image, you you made the point that oftentimes we approach negative body image with I need to change my thoughts about my body. But you, you go beyond that saying it's more it's more than just changing our thoughts and love to hear more about that. Well, if if we follow the line of thinking that I'm already presenting here, which is that thoughts are just kind of the end result of some, some interoceptive some sensory some affective experiences, then maybe what we need to do is create 20:00 ate more enjoyable, pleasurable experiences of being a body to drown out some of the thoughts. And they actually got some overwhelming evidence that my body is not just a thing that has a look. But is my being. And my being is good. And here's all the proof that I have for it. So there's two things that are happening there, structurally, one is that we are creating a whole new category of evidence for our goodness, and our goodness being not just about image, but about this felt and experiential sense of self. And two, we're kind of redirecting our attention away from those thoughts. And the interesting thing about thoughts is, the more we rehearse them, the better our brain gets it, finding evidence for them. And so instead of actually staying in thinking and staying in that kind of thinking, we're giving ourselves just something else as a way of like pinching, pinching off the life support for some of those cognitive maps that we have. And it is, it's a different way of thinking about our bodies to say that our bodies are more than just an image because actually, when I start talking about bodies, and I say you are your body, people who have struggled with their looks, really do not want to hear that. Because culturally, the way that we identify with our bodies the most is through appearance, we actually think, right, our bodies are how they appear, instead of our bodies being the field of sensation, this kind of Fiesta of their tapestry of exquisite experiential data on the inside. So, yesterday. 21:37 So I think it, it is a little disruptive for our disembodied, highly objectified and self objectifying paradigm to say we are our body, but that have actually nothing to do with image. And it just, 21:52 it is extraordinarily liberating to someone who's lived with and recovered from an eating disorder. very liberating to change the perception of 22:05 image from the outside to being a body on the inside. It means when I'm eating, for example, here's a direct application. I'm not thinking about what my eat food is doing to the outside of me. I'm thinking about how enjoyable it is. I'm thinking about the pleasure of eating and feeling the experience of noticing fullness and hunger inside. So there is indirectly in there to agency, 22:32 self compassion, attunement to self all of the things that get impaired when we are so focused on our image being the most important thing about her body. We'll be right back. 22:45 Rex, did you know that there are somewhere between 303,000 different versions of Cinderella I can honestly say I did not know that. And our theater department this fall is going to be doing Rodgers and Hammerstein classic version of Cinderella starting on Thursday, November 12, running through November 24. And tickets can be found at just.edu/shows. And the price ranges from 10 to $22. And doors are gonna open an hour before so you can get in reserve your seats and enjoy the living Christmas Village is the best show in Placer County. Welcome back to the show. What's your book you highlight and I love the title I'm I'm a sucker for good. Okay, and the wisdom of your body? I just love the the phrasing of that, that the body has wisdom to teach us 23:39 and, and love to explore what what is the wisdom that our body has to teach us? Oh, yeah. Well, I'm not gonna hide my agenda here or my kind of my assumptions are play neutral. I believe our bodies are good. And I believe our bodies are for us. And our bodies are holy and sacred. And are a, an invitation to be deeply connected to all life around us. So when we if I step back a little bit here, when we in our disembodied culture, a core of our culture that is so 24:19 you'd have wound into this narrative of the bifurcate itself, the mind body dualism, it is our bodies become the source of the problem if something is not working for us. So we scapegoat our bodies we say I can't do the thing I wanted to do. Therefore my body couldn't perform or my body got in the way or my body is attacking me or why does my body hate me or whatever the languages that we use to imply that the body is is not only separate from the staff, but it's against us. And the irony is that when we go in, and I think about this from like, a pseudo spiritual perspective, but I would say 25:00 largely a neuroscientific perspective, when we go into what's going on in the messages that our body is sending, that we often blame our bodies for. That is a result of our body, having tried to keep us safe in dangerous situations, trying to tell the truth about who we are in a context that is trying to silence us. Trying to ask to be fed, ask for movement, ask for rest, in social systems that don't want us to feed ourselves don't want us to stop buying don't want us to enjoy being at ease don't want us to connect in a slow thoughtful way with the earth and with people around us. So we're blaming our bodies, and yet our bodies are actually telling the truth, and they're calling us home, if only we knew how to interpret that and knew how to listen to it. And when we can flip our narrative and say, My body's not against me, my body is asking for a disruption in a system that doesn't work, then we can start to see the way that our body is actually directing us towards individual and collective healing. For example, emotion is part of empathy. If I cannot feel my feelings, I cannot feel with your feelings. And I do not care about your suffering, and then sustainable, interconnectedness way, if I'm not connected to my body, then I'm not going to notice that going at a pace that's unsustainable is hurting me. And I'm not going to 26:25 I'm not going to be able to disrupt kind of the wheel of capitalism, so to speak, or the wheel of hyper productivity that is threatening our well being. So our bodies are not only good, but they are actually or maybe this is an expression of the goodness directing us into more wholeness, If only we knew how to understand and listen to that. 26:48 So are there some I know, this is like the practical question, which, you know, you might already be tired of hearing, but I'm sure that I'm not the first person that's asking, Are there you know, a couple of I guess, practices that can help me, just place myself in a position that I'm more open to the wisdom that my body is? Hmm. So a simple switch is when we notice sensations that are otherwise irritating, threatening, or confusing. Instead of saying, that's a problem, or I need to ignore that, or I'm going to brush past that. Simply asking our bodies, what are you trying to tell me? What is it that you want me to know? Or maybe we have a feeling? Or that could be an emotion feeling or another kind of sensation, a tightening? Okay, tight shoulders? What are you trying to say? So adjusting our direction from avoidance or even shame, or frustration to curiosity, in a way that opens us up to hearing more. So I think that that's a really simple cognitive one. But I think another another more practical sensory one would be slowing down just to check in with what our body is feeling. So I can get very, 28:03 very focused on whatever's going on in front of me, including if I am stimulated intellectually, it can go into these, like we call it a hyper focus like rabbit holes of focus that are take hours for me to come out of and it has been a discipline, I would say, spiritual discipline for me to learn how to slow down. Oh, and pause, go, Whoa, I haven't checked my posture. I'm like a, you know, a gremlin over the laptop here. Like, 28:32 like, I'm thirsty. And I didn't know I was thirsty. Like, what is with the hunched over? Like, is really no funny postures we take when we're going in hard on something on the laptop. Yeah. So the the ability to stop and slow down and go, Whoa, my shoulders? Are they so tight? Like, oh, I am thirsty. Just checking in on a few things, is a way to interrupt how long we can go with being disconnected. So the point this is kind of like with mindfulness meditation, the point is not that you are perfectly attuned all the time, that that doesn't really exist. But the point is that you come back to yourself sooner, and you don't wait. So you come home. 29:14 I'm glad you mentioned the mindfulness meditation because I was I was thinking as I was, perusing your book, that there actually are some resources from our spiritual tradition, that that are more linked in between with the body and our spirituality than we even think, like, for example, why would one want when one wants to, you know, in turn to contemplation or meditation or whatever, why is it important to like, you know, 29:41 I don't know restaurant wise posture important. I mean, why why does that even matter? Right? But of course it does. And this is wisdom from you know, as 1000s of years old, even in the Christian tradition that you, you do that. So there's this link, even if one wanted to, like, somehow have an out of body experience. 30:00 Got it, it's probably impossible. But there's you can't even do that until you have a bodily experience. It's just ingrained in the process. Absolutely. Yeah. And we can, we can shift our mental states by shifting our physical states by adjusting our posture by adjusting how we are 30:21 existing in space together. It's amazing how that is such an under you underutilized resource for our spirituality in, at least in the faith tradition that I grew up in, where there was so much kind of sedentary, isolating, restore body restriction that was seen as being like a really good performing good church attendance, like sit quietly in the pew keep your feet on the ground. Although 30:48 there is something actually about changing what's happening with our body changing posture, changing movement, assuming different positions, with our body that actually I think is can signal so much about what's happening in a spiritually or be a way to access things spiritually, more ease, or more experience, perhaps, right. One thing I often do before my classes is all, you know, just read a prayer from I teach history. And so I always have a little didactic reason for doing this. But the general read a prayer from Christian history, I'll read it from different prayer books from different parts of the world. And sometimes I will read something from this African prayer book that's edited by Desmond Tutu. And right away, when you're just reading those prayers, they are almost like embodied prayers is almost a complete, it's just that the body is important, and how the how the connection between your body and your spirituality is just there in a way that in my culture, my tradition just was almost never right. It's it's startling, it's just startling the difference? Well, we maybe when we start to get into it, we can see the paradoxes or the the discrepancies and what we were told and what we were shown because most of us, I would say, if we grew up in, in the Christian tradition, particularly if some 32:08 sphere of evangelicalism or right that maybe the white evangelical movement, or kind of white Christianity, which is its own subset subset of 32:19 the faith tradition, that there was this narrative that the body was bad, the body was sinful, at least with what I grew up with. But then also really, 32:32 really heavy emphasis on hospitality and caring for other people in in a bodily way, take them food, 32:41 nourish them ready think about being told about Parker Palmer said having someone sit with Parker Palmer, while he was depressed, and someone just rubbing his feet for hours, right? Touching, touching the body caring for the poor, caring for the sick, caring for the elderly. And so we're told your body is sinful. But we're showing the body is actually such a loving way to express the love of Christ into the world. So there's often these tensions or discrepancies that we see if we look hard enough, where I think on some level, we know the body is important, even if we get tied up in 33:13 what to do about the parts of the body that are complicated and painful, and maybe hurt us and hurt other people too. 33:22 And many of the students we have here, chemists come from evangelical backgrounds, and, and so a lot of times they come in with, with that view that the body is bad, and I need to subdue the body. And in introducing kind of the ancient spiritual tradition, or spiritual practices, I think many of them are shocked at how embodied those practices are that they deal with your body to deal with posture we deal with. And then students have often associated their spiritual life as a fight against their body. 34:02 Instead of seeing the body as an indispensable ally, actually, yeah, and the place. I mean, maybe even the place where God exists, if we were to say that, like, 34:16 perhaps I don't know how that resonates with you, or how that would feel for some of your students, but instead of our body being the obstacle X actually being the doorway. 34:25 The entry point Yeah. 34:28 Well, we often you know, we haven't talked about Jesus, we're living in our heart, but we we don't really identify with God living with us like being with us, and and us experiencing God in an embodied way. 34:44 It's, it's more of just an image we have. 34:49 Yeah, I think you're right about that. I remember the first time I made that shift from feeling like I knew, I would say that the Spirit was working through me if I was using my body to care for somebody else. 35:00 But I realized the schism inside myself where I didn't also believe the same thing, if I was carrying bodily for myself if I was brushing my teeth, if I was beating myself, like, why is it that the spirit is only working when we are moving outwards, and not in this circle to also care for our own bodily selves. So that has been a huge shift for me in terms of my understanding of spirituality, that, that feeds really well into self care. And then I would say, like a kind of sustainability for all of the other kinds of loving acts that we distribute outwards. We need both 35:36 and letting other bodies care for you. I'm thinking about that with you know, Parker, Palmer sphere, you know, this, it's, it's an embodied 35:45 way to care for someone actually. Yeah, you know, that, well, I don't have to convince the two of you here. 35:52 Right, preaching to the choir. 35:57 But it's, it's an important message for, for, for our culture, and, and for our students, because I feel like they hear they hear negative voices from culture and from the church, about their body. Yeah. And so for them to, to understand the vital role that their body plays in their identity and who they are. And, 36:26 and in their spirituality, I think is really important. Because there's there's two extremes of listening to the maybe cultures lie that we are our appearance. And, and you have Kim Kardashian, West's hosts Saturday Night Live, and basically say, you know, I'm a reference sheet for the plastic surgeon. I mean, that was one of her jokes and her monologue, and it was just like, wow, this has a lot about what our culture thinks about body. And then maybe you go to church and hear someone talk negatively about that, and you can get a feeling of I need to subdue my body. 37:06 And the body loses in both of those scenarios. Yeah, I think that's something that really gets into the way that women are socialized, in particular around bodies, which is, your body is a liability. It's a problem. In the church, we hear, you know, messages around that with purity culture, women are responsible for men sexual transgressions. So right, your body is a problem in all of these ways. It could be the thing that makes you makes you I'm using air quotes here, makes you experience sexualized violence, right, it's because of your body, that that's the reality that you encounter. Or the other side of it, which is and your bodies. And also the only good thing about you, it is your social currency, it is the way you accrue social value. And you have two options, right, your body is dangerous, or this thing that you can refine to hopefully be valuable in a society that devalues you for so many other reasons and skills. So there are lots of these tensions that we can get into when we start looking at gender role socialization, and the sexual sexual objectification of women's bodies and how, how we are given these limited options, and none of them really allow for the full person to exist as a body, who is not just an appearance, who was not just an object. So we're trying to slice some of these things really thinly here and differently than maybe the the broad strokes around bodies that were given culturally. 38:39 Well, thank you so much for joining us on the show. I mean, I think our conversation has highlighted the the need for your book and the need to, to understand how we relate as a body. And, and, and how that that influenced by culture and also influence in the church and, and how we can become I loved your phrasing of using these practices to come back to ourselves. And I think I think the book is really going to help people understand their body and understand themselves better. Thank you so much for joining us. Pleasure. 39:19 Thank you so much for having me. Congratulations on making it to the end of the podcast. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Jessup think where we'll be posting updates and some behind the scenes content. We would love to hear your thoughts on the episode and engage with any questions you might have to leave us a comment or email us at think@jessup.edu. Our aim is to provide a framework for further reflection and deeper exploration of these important topics. If you want to support the show, leave us a review on iTunes we can reach more people. Until then, I'm Matthew Todd outro reader extraordinare and this has been Jessup thing. If you're interested in learning more about Jessup, please visit us at jessup.edu. William Jessup is the premier fully accredited 40:00 a four year Christian University in the Sacramento area offering over 60 academic programs in undergraduate and graduate studies designed to see each student whipped and transformed into the leader. They're called to be as go don't forget to hit subscribe and shares never miss an episode. Thanks for joining us for Jessup think.

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