Podcasts about Intervarsity

Has God left me here alone?When we find ourselves in dark, dangerous places, it's easy to wonder if God has left us. We might wonder... Did I miss his instructions? Is it because of sin? Does he just not care?What if those are the wrong questions? What if we're supposed to ask...Where do I remember seeing God in the past?Is it possible he's still there?Difficulty and hardship do not equal God's absence. In fact, Psalm 23 makes it clear that oftentimes the right paths lead through dark valleys. Which means, even if it's harder to see at times, God's provision and protection is still with us in difficult, dangerous places.This week, Jason Gaboury helps us better understand the confidence and hope that we can have, even when the path we're walking leads through some pretty dark valleys.RESOURCESDM "Examen" to @afterivpod to receive your copy of the daily examens discussed in this episodeRELATED EPISODEE173: Post-Graduation Disorientation and the Power of Perseverance (YouTube, Spotify, Apple)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our Website ★ Support this podcast ★

I feel like I'm not getting anywhere with Jesus lately...That's normal! Sometimes, sticking with your faith isn't about feeling inspired. It's about continuing to show up when it's boring, confusing, and hard. This week, we're talking about spiritual perseverance and our ability to hold tight to Jesus; especially when it feels like our relationship with him just isn't going anywhere.Because sometimes faithfully following Jesus after graduation isn't dramatic or exciting like it was on campus. Sometimes, it's just about that small, faithful decision to keep showing up.RELATED EPISODEE169: Overcoming Doubt: When Feelings and Faith Don't Match (YouTube, Spotify, Apple)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our Website ★ Support this podcast ★

"I walked away for a pretty long time..."No one expects to walk away from their faith after graduation. It was definitely a huge surprise for Rocco. He'd been highly involved in his InterVarsity chapter. He attended Urbana. And he was excited and hopeful about life after graduation. But loneliness, overworking, and extremely intelligent co-workers who didn't believe in Jesus left him experiencing an unexpected crisis of faith. This week, we hear Rocco's story of walking away from Jesus after graduation. But walking away wasn't the end. Through a series of events that sound like the setup to a bad dad joke, one lonely evening in the middle of a work trip the Holy Spirit, Rocco's campus staff, and his grandma intervened. And everything (slowly) started to change for Rocco.RELATED EPISODESE171: Disappointing Faith. Unfailing God. (YouTube, Spotify, Apple)E169: Overcoming Doubt: When Feelings and Faith Don't Match (YouTube, Spotify, Apple)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our Website ★ Support this podcast ★

“I think this would be a perfect time to choose to trust God with your future and with your present and just spend some time with him in nature, with other colleagues in prayer, in the word, etc.“ — Dr. Denise-Margaret Thompson Four esteemed guests join us on the podcast to discuss how we can reflect on this school year and enter into summer from a place of spiritual vitality. What does it look like to enter into summer from the position of this current cultural moment? We've invited four guests to participate in a roundtable discussion for this special episode as we wrap up our podcast season for this academic year. You'll get to hear from four women with expertise in university culture, spiritual formation, and faith-work integration as we talk about the uniqueness of the days we're living through. In this conversation, we'll talk about the challenges we are seeing on campus these days and the opportunities we have to respond faithfully. We also talk about how to wrap up the school year and enter into summer with a posture that is reflective and intentional and life-giving. I think you'll really enjoy this episode, and if you listen to the end of the credits, you'll hear a blessing that we are praying over all of our listeners. ​ So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

What do I do when my faith experience feels... disappointing?In this candid episode of After IV, we welcome InterVarsity alumna Erica Spanjers to talk about the highs and lows of post-college faith. Jon and Erica explore what it means to follow Jesus when church communities let us down, when spiritual growth feels slow, and when God's presence seems quiet. With themes of church hurt, spiritual disappointment, and resilient hope, this episode offers real encouragement for alumni navigating transitions, faith deconstruction, and building (or rebuilding) trust in God after graduation.RELATED EPISODESE169: Overcoming Doubt: When Feelings and Faith Don't Match (YouTube, Spotify, Apple)E166: Where Does God Want Me to Go?: Developing Tools for Discernment (YouTube, Spotify, Apple)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our Website ★ Support this podcast ★

“Doing your PhD is ... there's a lot of pressure for sure, but you never get that kind of space and time [again] to focus on a single project. As soon as you leave ... there are so many other demands in your time. The privilege of getting to sit with a topic for years and have so many people invest in the work that you're doing and speak into it and help you to improve it — it's so wonderful. I would do PhDs for the rest of my life.“ — Jennifer Powell McNutt Professor and author Dr. Jennifer Powell McNutt joins us on the podcast to discuss the place of Mary Magdalene in the biblical story and what she can teach us about walking with Jesus.  Who was Mary Magdalene and what does her story offer to Christians in the 21st century? Dr. Jennifer Powell McNutt joins us on the podcast to discuss her recent book The Mary We Forgot: What the Apostle to the Apostles Teaches the Church Today, which recently received the honor of being a 2025 ECPA Christian Book Award Finalist. Jennifer helps us to understand the unique place Mary Magdalene has in the story of Jesus as a woman, a believer, and a model for Christians across the ages. We talk about the ways Mary's life impacted the church across the world, and we learn about some crucial misunderstandings that have maligned Mary's name over the years. Jennifer also offers encouraging thoughts about her experience as a woman in the academy, and if you listen to the end of the credit, you'll hear an excerpt from our conversation where Jennifer shares her story of advocating for maternity leave on campus. So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

When you look back, do you see Him? In part two of our conversation with Heather Thompson Day, we talk about the power of reflection, the slow work of spiritual growth, and the ways God shows up—often in hindsight. Heather shares how journaling, gratitude, and persistent hope have helped her recognize God's fingerprints even in seasons of silence and waiting. We also explore what it means to prosper in God's kingdom (hint: it's not about success), how to live generously even in lack, and why your faithfulness matters more than your clarity. If you've been wondering where God is in your story, this episode will help you find Him in the details.ResourcesVisit heatherthompsonday.comPurchase What if I'm Wrong: Navigating the Waves of Fear and FailureFollow @heatherthompsondayRELATED EPISODEE169: Overcoming Doubt: When Feelings and Faith Don't Match (YouTube, Spotify, Apple)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our Website ★ Support this podcast ★

What if doubt wasn't something to run from, but a sign you're right where God wants you? In part one of this honest and powerful conversation, Dr. Heather Thompson Day joins us to talk about the unexpected presence of doubt during life's biggest transitions—like stepping away from a career, losing structure, or graduating from a close-knit community. Together, we unpack how faith and doubt often coexist, why resistance can be a sign of God's presence, and how to stay rooted when your future feels uncertain. Whether you're wrestling with calling, finances, or identity, this episode reminds you: God sees you, even when you can't see Him.ResourcesVisit heatherthompsonday.comPurchase What if I'm Wrong: Navigating the Waves of Fear and FailureFollow @heatherthompsondayRELATED EPISODEE166: Where Does God Want Me to Go?: Developing Tools for Discernment (YouTube, Spotify, Apple)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our Website ★ Support this podcast ★

With Adri Fonteijn, Study Abroad Campus Partnership Coordinator at InterVarsity

“Show up as your authentic self. Please don't mold yourself into what you think you ought to be or how you think you ought to be received. Just be who God has called you to be, because when you do that, you give other women permission to be themselves, and I want my daughters to have that.”  — Nicole Massie Martin Executive leader and author Rev. Dr. Nicole Massie Martin joins us on the podcast to discuss principles of sacrificial leadership and how Christians can follow Jesus in their own roles.  How do leadership principles look different for those who wish to integrate their Christian faith into their roles? Rev. Dr. Nicole Massie Martin joins us on the podcast to discuss her recent book Nailing It: Why Successful Leadership Demands Suffering and Surrender. Nicole describes the contrast between common leadership practices and the kind of sacrificial leadership that Jesus modeled for us. We discuss unique challenges for women leaders within this framework, and Nicole talks the ways our current cultural moment is exemplifying these leadership dynamics.  In addition — I'm pleased to tell you that InterVarsity Press is offering a discount on Nailing It for listeners of this podcast. Just use the code IVPWSAP25 for 25% off and free shipping when you purchase the book at ivpress.com. You can find a link to the book and the discount code in the show notes. And if you listen to the end of the credits, you'll hear an excerpt from our podcast where Nicole shares her recommendations for overcoming imposter syndrome. So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

What's the hardest part about making friends after graduation?Believe it or not, it usually isn't meeting new people. New people are everywhere. The hardest part is taking consistent, proactive steps toward GETTING TO KNOW someone once you've met them. So, how do we take that step? If friendship and community are so important for our faith development, mental health, and general well being, how do we overcome that most difficult step?This week, Jon and Nader chat about vulnerability, healthy boundaries, prayer, and a little persistence as a workable formula for developing deeper, meaningful connections after graduation.RELATED EPISODESE167: Too Distracted to Pray: Developing Prayer Rhythms That Work for You (YouTube, Spotify, Apple)E103: Making (and Keeping) Friends After Graduation (Spotify, Apple)RESOURCESNader's WebsiteSTAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our WebsiteLeave us a message on SpeakPipe ★ Support this podcast ★

Guest Bio: Tara Edelschick is a teacher, a writer, mother of three, and grandmother. For three decades, she has worked as an educator, teaching public high school students in New York, graduate students at Harvard's School of Education, homeschoolers in Massachusetts, and incarcerated men taking college courses through the Emerson Prison Initiative. In her church, you can find her speaking at a women's conference or marriage retreat, teaching Sunday school, gathering mothers for prayer and Bible study, or leading retreats for families.    Guest Bio: Kathy Tuan-MacLean is the national faculty ministry director for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, where she invites and resources faculty to follow Jesus together. Since joining InterVarsity in 1990, she has led numerous students and faculty in Bible study, spiritual formation, and leadership development. She is also a spiritual director who has led marriage ministry and women's retreats. Kathy is married to Scott, and they have three young adult children and an overanxious mini labradoodle.    Show Summary: Did you know that 65-70% of moms struggle with feeling alone? Finding community can be hard during any part of life, but especially while you're taking care of a child or children. Stay-at-home moms often live repetitive days at home with only their children, while working moms balance a schedule of feeling like they need to be in two places at once. How can moms find people to do life with? Tara Edelschick and Kathy Tuan-MacLean understand the struggle firsthand. Join them as they share their advice with hosts Elisa Morgan and Eryn Eddy Adkins for this special Mother's Day conversation on God Hears Her.     Notes and Quotes:   “God did not intend us to go through life alone, gutting through it and hiding out in the pantry eating cookies. We might still go hid in the pantry to eat cookies, but God wants to give us a friend to talk to about it.” —Tara Edelschick  “Women want to be seen and heard by God and by each other.” —Tara Edelschick  “But because God loves to answer prayers that are in God's will, and that we be in community is definitely in God's will, it is always a gift. And I believe that it's a gift God wants to give us.” —Kathy Tuan-MacLean  “God invites you to share your story. God asks you to trust and obey. God transforms your pain and then invites you to be an agent of shalom.” —Tara Edelschick  “As long as you don't say no [to God using your story], no matter what you're going through as a mom, there is transformation. God can use you, and all the pain you've been through, to help you be an agent of shalom—in your family and in the world. “—Tara Edelschick    Verses:   Hagar's Story: Genesis 16  Samaritan Women: John 4  Racheal & Leah: Genesis 29:1–30:24    Links:   Buy Moms at the Well: https://www.ivpress.com/moms-at-the-well  Tara's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/taraedelschick/  Kathy's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kathytuanmaclean/  God Hears Her website: https://godhearsher.org/  Watch the Video Podcast here: https://www.youtube.com/@GodHearsHerODBM  God Hears Her email sign-up: https://www.godhearsher.org/sign-upsfmc   Subscribe on iTunes! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/god-hears-her-podcast/id1511046507?utm_source=applemusic&utm_medium=godhearsher&utm_campaign=podcast  Elisa's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elisamorganauthor/  Eryn's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/eryneddy/  Vivian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/vivmabuni/  Our Daily Bread Ministries website: https://www.odbm.org/   

Guest Bio: Tara Edelschick is a teacher, a writer, mother of three, and grandmother. For three decades, she has worked as an educator, teaching public high school students in New York, graduate students at Harvard's School of Education, homeschoolers in Massachusetts, and incarcerated men taking college courses through the Emerson Prison Initiative. In her church, you can find her speaking at a women's conference or marriage retreat, teaching Sunday school, gathering mothers for prayer and Bible study, or leading retreats for families.    Guest Bio: Kathy Tuan-MacLean is the national faculty ministry director for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, where she invites and resources faculty to follow Jesus together. Since joining InterVarsity in 1990, she has led numerous students and faculty in Bible study, spiritual formation, and leadership development. She is also a spiritual director who has led marriage ministry and women's retreats. Kathy is married to Scott, and they have three young adult children and an overanxious mini labradoodle.    Show Summary: Did you know that 65-70% of moms struggle with feeling alone? Finding community can be hard during any part of life, but especially while you're taking care of a child or children. Stay-at-home moms often live repetitive days at home with only their children, while working moms balance a schedule of feeling like they need to be in two places at once. How can moms find people to do life with? Tara Edelschick and Kathy Tuan-MacLean understand the struggle firsthand. Join them as they share their advice with hosts Elisa Morgan and Eryn Eddy Adkins for this special Mother's Day conversation on God Hears Her.     Notes and Quotes:   “God did not intend us to go through life alone, gutting through it and hiding out in the pantry eating cookies. We might still go hid in the pantry to eat cookies, but God wants to give us a friend to talk to about it.” —Tara Edelschick  “Women want to be seen and heard by God and by each other.” —Tara Edelschick  “But because God loves to answer prayers that are in God's will, and that we be in community is definitely in God's will, it is always a gift. And I believe that it's a gift God wants to give us.” —Kathy Tuan-MacLean  “God invites you to share your story. God asks you to trust and obey. God transforms your pain and then invites you to be an agent of shalom.” —Tara Edelschick  “As long as you don't say no [to God using your story], no matter what you're going through as a mom, there is transformation. God can use you, and all the pain you've been through, to help you be an agent of shalom—in your family and in the world. “—Tara Edelschick    Verses:   Hagar's Story: Genesis 16  Samaritan Women: John 4  Racheal & Leah: Genesis 29:1–30:24    Links:   Buy Moms at the Well: https://www.ivpress.com/moms-at-the-well  Tara's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/taraedelschick/  Kathy's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kathytuanmaclean/  God Hears Her website: https://godhearsher.org/  Watch the Video Podcast here: https://www.youtube.com/@GodHearsHerODBM  God Hears Her email sign-up: https://www.godhearsher.org/sign-upsfmc   Subscribe on iTunes! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/god-hears-her-podcast/id1511046507?utm_source=applemusic&utm_medium=godhearsher&utm_campaign=podcast  Elisa's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elisamorganauthor/  Eryn's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/eryneddy/  Vivian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/vivmabuni/  Our Daily Bread Ministries website: https://www.odbm.org/   

Life's too distracting to have a meaningful prayer time...Do you ever feel this way? You're not alone! Spiritual Director and clinical counselor, Nader Sahyouni, says that distraction is one of the most common barriers people experience in prayer. Whether it's the result of big life choices, frustrations at work, or relentless TikTok notifications, life is just distracting. And the remedy isn't simply getting more focused... It's leaning into God's gracious invitation to experience his love and care for us.Join us this week for an invitation to transition from prayer motivated by task and obligation to a sense of relationship and connection with a loving God (plus a few practical tips to help the distracted pray-er...)RELATED EPISODEE166: Where Does God Want Me to Go?: Developing Tools for Discernment (YouTube, Spotify, Apple)RESOURCESNader's WebsiteDistraction ProblemsSTAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our WebsiteLeave us a message on SpeakPipe ★ Support this podcast ★

“The pastor's wife, in many ways, embodies the history of the Protestant church….Refocusing on her and putting her at the center helps us to understand the bigger picture of the role women play in church history and how women are overshadowed by these patriarchal structures.”  — Beth Allison Barr Historian and professor Beth Allison Barr joins us on the podcast to discuss women's leadership in the historical church and the cultural cost of forgetting our roots. What happens when historical evidence for women's leadership in church is buried and even forgotten? Historian and professor Beth Allison Barr joins us on the podcast to discuss her recent book Becoming the Pastor's Wife: How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman's Path to Ministry. Beth traces the way centuries of women's leadership were swept aside as female ordination declined and the role of the pastor's wife was elevated in the white evangelical church. We talk about Beth's scholarship, including some of her practices regarding teaching and collaborative research, and we hear Beth's reflections on our current cultural moment and how we can thrive as women academics. And if you listen to the end of the credits, you'll hear an excerpt from our podcast where Beth shares her thoughts on the benefits of working with a supportive writing group. So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

How do I know where God is leading me?This episode kicks off a new series on After IV. We're exploring a few of the changes we can expect in our faith experience after graduation.On this episode, clinical counselor and spiritual director Nader Sahyouni joins us to unpack the shift from being driven to being called. Nader introduces listeners to the practice of discernment—not just for big decisions, but as a daily rhythm. He explains the role of consolation and desolation, how to build a personal rule of life, and why our desires—when rightly ordered—can lead us closer to God. Whether you're feeling burned out or just unsure about next steps, this episode offers practical tools for tuning into God's daily invitations.RESOURCESNader's WebsiteDeveloping a Rule of LifeRELATED EPISODE(S)E78: Finding Your Footing on Purpose (Apple, Spotify)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our WebsiteLeave us a message on SpeakPipe ★ Support this podcast ★

Join SU-USA President, Gail Martin and guest Dennis Brice, pastor and church planter, as they discuss a new week's readings in Mark. You can subscribe to the daily Bible reading God, Encounter with God, via print, email or online at www.ScriptureUnion.orgFeatured Guest: Dennis Brice, pastor and church planterRev. Dennis Brice is an ordained minister from the Church of Scotland who has spent his life engaged with church planting efforts. He has served as a campus pastor with InterVarsity, a pastor in Taiwan for 10 years and spent several years equipping others for ministry as Candidate Director of Arab World Ministries. Most recently, Dennis has served as a seasonal pastor in Portugal while continuing to support church-planting efforts in the U.S. He is known for his workshops on Luke and Mark, and his seminar "Tomorrow is Another Culture."

What does it really look like to navigate life after college with hope and faith? Erica Young Reitz returns to After IV with wisdom from the newly revised edition of her book After College, now updated for Gen Z. In this encouraging conversation, Erica and Jon explore the challenges of transition, the unique superpowers Gen Z brings to the table, and the role of spiritual formation in all of it. Whether you're anxious about what's next or simply looking for clarity, this episode will help you breathe deep, name what's normal, and take your next step with Jesus.RESOURCESGrab your copy of After College: Navigating Transitions, Relationships, and Faith by Erica Young ReitzVisit the After College Transition website for more resources!RELATED EPISODEE102: Ending Well With My Friends On Campus (Apple, Spotify, YouTube)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our WebsiteLeave us a message on SpeakPipe ★ Support this podcast ★

“One of the practices I use a lot in clinical supervision with burned out and stressed therapist or academics is asking people to remember why we got into this work in the first place, remembering back about the original hope and intention for my life with this work. What was God's call on my life?”  — Terri S. Watson Psychologist and professor Terri S. Watson joins us on the podcast to discuss therapy, human flourishing, and the practicalities of healing your mental health.   When someone decides that they are ready to go to therapy, how do you even begin the process? Psychologist and professor Terri S. Watson joins us on the podcast to discuss her recent book The Client's Guide to Therapy: How to Get the Most out of Your Counseling Experience. Terri talks about the sacredness of therapy as a tool to promote human flourishing, and we hear her practical suggestions for getting started yourself or helping a loved one. We talk about the unique psychological stresses on academics today, and Terri shares a few strategies to ground yourself when you're feeling overwhelmed.  In addition — I'm pleased to tell you that InterVarsity Press is offering a discount on The Client's Guide to Therapy for listeners of this podcast. Just use the code IVPWSAP25 for 25% off and free shipping when you purchase the book at ivpress.com. And if you listen to the end of the credits, you'll hear an excerpt from our podcast where Terri offers some suggestions for getting the most out of a therapy session. So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. Interested in a written version of this interview? We're experimenting with an auto-generated transcript service, unpolished and far from error-free, but we hope it's useful! Click here for the imperfect transcript.   If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

When the final final whistle blows and a college athlete hangs up her jersey for the last time, what happens next?For Julia, an Athletes InterVarsity Alumna from UW-River Falls, it was a challenging transition. Saying goodbye to her team, managing an unfamiliar routine, and embracing her new grad school environment meant following Jesus into uncertainty. But God had been preparing her to take courageous steps of faith like these since joining the UW-River Falls Women's Basketball team during her junior year. It was here, as a brand new member of the team, that Julia planted a team Bible study; a ministry that has continued to grow and flourish since she graduated in 2024. It may not look quite the same, but Julia is still courageously saying "yes" to Jesus in her new context and learning what it means to lean into her identity as a child of God and follower of Jesus.RELATED EPISODEE102: Ending Well With My Friends On Campus (Apple, Spotify)E163: Cookies with Andy (Apple, Spotify, YouTube)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our WebsiteLeave us a message on SpeakPipe ★ Support this podcast ★

In this special bonus episode, Philip Sheegog shares his final words of wisdom for alumni navigating life after graduation. Reflecting on his own journey, he encourages us to trust in God's provision, release fear, and hold onto His faithfulness—even when the future feels uncertain.RELATED EPISODEE162: Holding Your Calling with Open Hands (Apple, Spotify, YouTube)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our WebsiteLeave us a message on SpeakPipe ★ Support this podcast ★

Jon realizes a dream today: Eating a really big cookie with Andy Mineo. (If you aren't watching this on YouTube, you should be. Link HERE.)RELATED EPISODEE20: Andy Mineo: Using Influence, Inspiration, and Imperfection to Make Something New (YouTube, Spotify, Apple)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our WebsiteLeave us a message on SpeakPipe ★ Support this podcast ★

“I managed to divide myself in half. We can let our lives run on parallel tracks, and that is one way people deal with things. But it's not healthy because the trains will collide.”  — Ruth Bancewicz Science and faith professional Ruth Bancewicz joins us on the podcast to discuss the integration of faith and science and the way churches can help. How does a scientist find space to express their faith within their research and teaching? Ruth Bancewicz joins us on the podcast in an interview with guest host and Women Scholars and Professionals Director Karen Guzman. Ruth and Karen sit down together to discuss Ruth's work as a science and faith professional, serving as a thoughtful catalyst for integration at the Faraday Institute for Science and Religion at Cambridge University in England. Ruth describes her journey into this unique position and offers encouragement to women who are working toward more fully integrating their faith with their work life — and encountering struggles along the way. And if you listen to the end of the credits, you'll hear a short passage from one of Ruth's books entitled Wonders of the Living World.  So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

As an artist, what does it mean to pursue your calling while holding it with open hands? In this episode, Philip Sheegog, an Arts InterVarsity alumnus and co-founder of the electroacoustic duo Arkai, shares his journey from Juilliard to life as a touring musician. He opens up about navigating calling, trusting God's plan in a highly competitive industry, and resisting the pressure to define success by the world's standards. Through personal stories and wisdom, Philip challenges alumni to surrender our gifts to God, trust His timing, and embrace a vision bigger than ourselves.RELATED EPISODEE116: Navigating a Career in the Arts (Apple, Spotify, YouTube)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our WebsiteLeave us a message on SpeakPipe ★ Support this podcast ★

Episode 195What do you think about para-church ministries? This is one of those subjects where if you ask a hundred Christians, you may get a hundred different answers. In this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast we talk with recurring guest Shawn Henly about the InterVarsity Christian Fellowship (IVCF), a worldwide college campus organization that claims it seeks to establish and advance witnessing opportunities of students and faculty. If that sounds a bit like Cru (formerly Campus Crusade for Christ), you would be right. But what many of us do not realize is that these organizations, though established with good intentions, are completely infiltrated with unbiblical ideologies like feminism, woke-ism, and racism. We must expose these things to encourage reform and repentance. Shawn Henly of Cross Crusaders has been actively trying to warn and inform Christians of IVCF's departure from the scriptures for a long time now, and he joins us to peel back the rot underneath the veneer of christian evangelism. Don't miss this conversation--it will be a wake-up call for us to be vigilant against the works of darkness and take nothing for granted.Listen to the Removing Barriers Podcast here:Spotify: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://cutt.ly/Ega8YeI⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://cutt.ly/Vga2SVd⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Edifi: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://cutt.ly/Meec7nsv⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://cutt.ly/mga8A77⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Podnews: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://podnews.net/podcast/i4jxo⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠See all our platforms: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://removingbarriers.net⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Contact us:Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://removingbarriers.net/contact⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Financially support the show: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://removingbarriers.net/donate⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Affiliates:Book Shop: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bookshop.org/shop/removingbarriers⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Christian Books . com: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/home?event=AFF&p=1236574⁠See all our affiliates: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://removingbarriers.net/affiliates⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Notes:InterVarsity: https://intervarsity.org/Cross Crusaders: https://www.crosscrusaders.com/

“I like to think of bread-baking more in terms of liturgy than in terms of recipe.” — Kendall Vanderslice Author, baker, and theologian Kendall Vanderslice joins us on the podcast to discuss the way baking bread offers a gateway to prayer, theology, and community. Have you ever tried the spiritual practice of liturgical bread baking? Author, baker, and theologian Kendall Vanderslice joins us on the podcast to discuss her recent book Bake & Pray: Liturgies & Recipes for Baking Bread as a Spiritual Practice. Whether you've never baked before or you've baked dozens of loaves in your lifetime, Kendall offers a framework for baking a simple loaf and a series of thoughtful prayers to go along with the creative process. Kendall shares her thoughts about the way Scripture informs our baking in a unique way, and she talks about the way she views bread-baking as a political act. And if you listen to the end of the credits, you'll hear an excerpt from our podcast where Kendall offers some thoughts on baking for church communion plus how people who are gluten sensitive respond to this kind of bread. So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

We all know work can be difficult, but when does difficult become unhealthy?This week, Chase Read returns to share about her difficult decision to leave a job. The work was something she loved, believed in, and had spent a lot of time studying to do. But when it became clear that the job was a detriment to her mental and emotional wellness, Chase discerned that it was time to step away. And, although it required her to step into unfamiliar territory, Chase was comforted to find a familiar God walking through that transition with her.RELATED EPISODE(S)E153: Taking the Next Step in Your Wellness Journey (Apple, Spotify, YouTube)E87: From Gap Year to Volunteer: Why "Failure" Should Always Be an Option (Apple, Spotify, YouTube)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our WebsiteLeave us a message on SpeakPipe  ★ Support this podcast ★

This week, we're joined by Justin Morrissette, a Purdue University alumnus who's going to share about his wellness journey after graduation. Physical fitness has been a longtime value for Justin, but changes in context and daily rhythms required a renewed commitment to his physical wellness after graduation. However, in addition to getting regular exercise, Justin also found himself continuing to grow in meaningful relationships and with unexpected opportunities to have spiritual conversations at the gym.RELATED EPISODESE153: Taking the Next Step in Your Wellness Journey (Apple, Spotify, YouTube)E67: Do You Even Rook Lift?!: Checkmates, Lifting Weights, and Questions About Identity (Apple, Spotfy, YouTube)FIND JUSTIN ON AMAZONSTAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our WebsiteLeave us a message on SpeakPipe ★ Support this podcast ★

“If we were all created in the image of God, all of us who look so different...there is so much more to learn about God. So, I get one step closer to knowing God from exposing myself to different people...” — Khristi Lauren Adams Author and youth advocate Khristi Lauren Adams joins us on the podcast to discuss the theological insights we can learn from experiences of Black girlhood and how these truths can shape us all. Many of us are familiar with theological concepts that have been passed down through years of tradition in seminaries. But what can we learn about theology from the everyday experience of Black girls? Author, minister, and youth advocate Khristi Lauren Adams joins us on the podcast to discuss her recent book Womanish Theology: Discovering God through the Lens of Black Girlhood. Khristi and I talk about young people today and their unique perspectives on suffering, community, and spiritual practices. Khristi shares her experiences of learning from students with an attitude of humility and respect, and we consider the way kids today are growing up in a different set of cultural circumstances that previous generations. And if you listen to the end of the credits, you'll hear an excerpt from our conversation where Khristi offers her thoughts about the ways Gen Z will bring gifts into the world as they enter adulthood.  So jump right in! We're so glad you're here.   So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

Married couple Kelsey and Dane Schuett are together…a lot. Not only do they serve on the same church staff team, but they also serve alongside one another in mission with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Most importantly, they are co-parenting their young son Leo. In this episode, hosts Rob and Layla are joined by Dane and Kelsey who invite listeners into their theological journeys, the joys and struggles of partnering together, and their vision for an egalitarian community where “people get our best, not our must.”  Guest Bios  Kelsey and Dane Schuett are campus staff ministers with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship at UC Santa Barbara and Santa Barbara City College. They are also pastors at New Life Church Santa Barbara. Kelsey and Dane live here in Santa Barbara, CA, with their one-year-old son, Leo. They both love coffee, the beach, sit-coms, our InterVarsity students, music and worship, and our awesome faith community!  Kelsey Schuett's sermon: https://nlcsb.org/media/r9fsvmv/advent-week-2  Related Resources  Leading Together in Christ: A Biblical View of Authority    Leading Together: Lessons From Sharing Leadership in Ministry and Marriage  Women and Men Leading Together: “Exchanging a Muzzle for a Microphone” with Rici and Phil Skei  Disclaimer  The opinions expressed in CBE's Mutuality Matters' podcast are those of its hosts or guests and do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers. 

Are there good emotions and bad emotions? Should we be investing extra effort into only feeling certain emotions and avoiding others?Our guest this week, Dr. Kevin Chapman, would suggest that our full spectrum of emotions is a gift from God, even the ones we'd often prefer to eliminate. And through a better understanding of common external triggers, along with our thoughts and responses to them, we can master our emotions, better commune with God and others, and lean into emotional wellness.MORE FROM DR. CHAPMANMastering Our Emotions: Biblical Principles for Emotional HealthWebsiteRELATED EPISODE(S)E155: Caring for Our Mental Health in Seasons of Transition (Apple, Spotify, Youtube)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our WebsiteLeave us a message on SpeakPipe ★ Support this podcast ★

“What does success mean to you? What does that look like? What is yours to do? What isn't yours to do?” — Tracey Gee Author and consultant Tracey Gee joins us on the podcast to discuss the value of knowing our own desires and the barriers that get in the way of this knowledge. How do you respond when a friend asks, “What do you want?” Whether it is a simple question of choosing a restaurant for dinner or a deeper inquiry into your professional calling, few of us possess the level of clarity we'd hope to have. But can that kind of clarity be uncovered and cultivated? Author and leadership coach Tracey Gee joins us on the podcast to discuss her recent book The Magic of Knowing What You Want: A Practical Guide to Unearthing the Wisdom of Your Desires. Tracey and I discuss the gifts that come from knowing our desires and the barriers that get in the way, especially for women. Tracey introduces us to some of the questions and processes she has crafted to help in uncovering desire, and we talk about the way spiritual formation plays into it all. And if you listen to the end of the credits, you'll hear an excerpt from our conversation where Tracey shares a little anecdote about how her teenage sons engaged with her book-writing process. So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

About Mike Hipsley: Mike grew up in Catonsville, MD, and came to faith in high school. He graduated from Western Maryland College (now McDaniel College) and then got a M.Ed. from Loyola College of Maryland. Mike began his career as a teacher but felt called into ministry so he went to seminary in Charlotte, NC, where he earned a Master of Arts in Philosophical Apologetics. He then accepted a position as an Associate Pastor at a local in church in Reisterstown, MD, where he served for 9 years. In 2020 Mike left this position to become a Campus Pastor with InterVarsity at McDaniel College. Mike has been happily married to Diana for 23 years and they have three children: Joseph (18), William (15) and Grace (11).

Loss of community. Change in routine. Lack of consistency. All of these things have a significant impact on our mental health in season of transition. So, what can we do to navigate these changes in a way that promotes wellness and healthy practices?Clinical Mental Health Counselor, Chase Read, joins this week to share her expertise (and some personal experience) in caring for our mental health and leaning on the Unchanging One during seasons of transition.RELATED EPISODEE89: Navigating Anxiety with Grace and Grit: 10 Tips for Post-Graduation Anxiety (Apple, Spotify, YouTube)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodVisit our WebsiteLeave us a message on SpeakPipe ★ Support this podcast ★

“Find your Elizabeth. Find the person who sees the gifts in you and names them. That's really significant.”  — Jerusha Matsen Neal Author and professor Jerusha Matsen Neal joins us on the podcast to discuss the importance of place as we consider the spiritual implications of climate change around the world. In our world today, the effects of climate change have become more and more inescapable. But how can our own sense of place enlarge our understanding of the intricate links between us and those across the earth? Author and professor Jerusha Matsen Neal joins us on the podcast to explore a theology of place and the ways we can look at the presence of climate catastrophe with clear eyes and a faithful response. In her book Holy Ground: Climate Change, Preaching, and the Apocalypse of Place, Jerusha helps us learn from the sermons of displaced Indigenous communities in the South Pacific, exploring the effects of colonialism and inviting us into a space of learning and reflection. Jerusha and I also discuss her convictions on the power of preaching and the ways we can move forward to better the world today. In addition, Jerusha wanted listeners of this podcast who are interested in purchasing her book to know that you can get a 20% discount if you buy the book from Baylor University Press and use the promo code: 17PROMO. You can find a link to the book and the discount code in the show notes. And if you listen to the end of the credits, you'll hear an excerpt from our conversation where Jerusha shares her best advice for someone who is considering working or studying overseas. So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

Seasons of transition can be hard on the body. Moving, adjusting to long hours at work, or simply trying to establish a new routine can cause us to narrow our focus to only accomplishing what must be done. But before we know it, we've acclimated to a rhythm that doesn't include the healthy practices we once had.This week, we're continuing our wellness series by zooming in on fitness and nutrition. Special guest, Phil Steele (Jon's dad) joins to share his expertise on the subject. After today, we'll be prepared to develop a simple but effect plan for exercise and nutrition for this unique season of life after graduation. Whether you're starting or re-starting this part of your wellness journey, this conversation is for you!RELATED EPISODE(S)E153: Taking the Next Step in Your Wellness Journey (Apple, Spotify, YouTube)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodLeave us a message on SpeakPipeVisit our Website ★ Support this podcast ★

What part(s) of your life could use a healthy boost right now?It's common for healthy rhythms to take a back seat after graduation. Whether it's adjusting to a new job, finding a suitable place to live, or just navigating the aisles of an unfamiliar grocery store, it's easy to feel like the best we can hope for is to just survive. But we were made for more than that!At the beginning of a new year, we're kicking off a series designed to help you thrive. Paying attention to your health and wellness won't just help you feel better, it will help you perform better at work, in new community, and in this new season of your relationship with Jesus. This week, we're starting our new series with Mykenzie Green, a licensed wellness coach who's going to help us develop a simple, personalized plan for taking next steps in our wellness journey.Enjoy and share with someone who needs to hear this episode!SubscribeSpotifyAppleYouTubeSTAY IN TOUCH@afterivpodLeave us a message on SpeakPipe ★ Support this podcast ★

Chasen Robbins from the University of Utah chapter of InterVarsity walks us through 40 days of Jesus in the wilderness Luke 4:1-13. Chasen recaps the arc of the wilderness throughout scripture and highlights how the wilderness is one of the primary ways followers of Jesus grow near to God.

“Do what you do with love. Whether you're gonna teach physics coming out of Cambridge and Harvard or whether you're gonna go teach first-year English at your local community college — do it your best and do what you do with love..”  — Julie Lane-Gay Author and horticulturist Julie Lane-Gay joins us on the podcast to discuss the ways the Book of Common Prayer has transformed her spiritual life. As we look into a new calendar year, we're exploring the hopes and dreams we have for 2025. Many of us might be hoping to continue or refresh our practices of prayer and worship, so we're delighted to offer a conversation that can help with that aim. Author and horticulturist Julie Lane-Gay joins us on the podcast to discuss her recent book The Riches of Your Grace: Living in the Book of Common Prayer. Julie shares her journey of companionship with the Book of Common Prayer and describes ways that its prayers have infused her life with meaning. We talk about a few practical ways we can get started in utilizing this historic book in our prayer lives, and we also talk about Julie's personal passion for plants and gardens. In addition — I'm pleased to tell you that InterVarsity Press is offering a discount on The Riches of Your Grace and on the 1662 version of the Book of Common Prayer. This discount is available on both of these books for listeners of this podcast. Just use the code IVPWSAP25 for 25% off and free shipping when you purchase the book at ivpress.com. You can find a link to the book and the discount code in the show notes. And if you listen to the end of the credits, you'll hear an excerpt from our conversation where Julie describes a very unique class called “The Boat Class” that she and her husband teach at Regent.  So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

Author Ellie Yang Camp and I first crossed paths 24 years ago at a triennial Christian conference for college students. I was the main speaker that week and she was a student leader of her InterVarsity chapter @ Cal. We never met that week, but when her debut book Louder Than the Lies crossed my desk and I read her bio and then saw what she had to say about the insidious and pervasive problems of white supremacy and whiteness, and how they continue to oppress and brainwash many of us Asian Americans, I immediagtely knew I had to bring her on my show. And with Trump having been re-elected to the White House, Ellie's book should be required reading. You can find her on social media @eeewhysee and you can find her book anywhere great books are sold. #whiteness #whitesupremacy #aanhpi #defeatingracism

Merry Christmas, alumni! Instead of our typical episode, we will be enjoying a special reading of Luke 2 from the First Nations Version. Huge thanks to Terry Wildman for returning to give us this great gift!After today, we will take a few weeks off for rest over the upcoming holidays and to prep for our new season and some exciting new features in 2025!Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and we'll see you in 2025, alumni!RESOURCESPurchase Birth of the Chosen: A First Nations Retelling of the Christmas StoryPurchase First Nations Version: An Indigenous Translation of the New TestamentPre-Order First Nations Version Psalms and Proverbs: An Indigenous Bible TranslationLearn more about the First Nations VersionRELATED EPISODEE148: The Birth of the Chosen One (Apple, Spotify)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodLeave us a message on SpeakPipeVisit our Website ★ Support this podcast ★

Have you ever wondered, "How much is enough?" This week's guest has given that question some serious thought. In 2013, Greg Baumer entered Harvard Business School with the expectation of leveling up his business prowess and cementing his financial future. What he didn't expect, was the transformation he was about to experience around money. However, after cross-registering for a course on God and money in Harvard Divinity School, transformation is exactly what he experienced. And after surveying thousands of passages of scripture about money, Greg was set on a trajectory that would forever change his financial future and lead to his family's implementation of a thoughtful "financial finish line".RESOURCESGod & Money: How We Discovered True Riches at Harvard Business SchoolTrue Riches: What Jesus Really Said About Money And Your HeartMore recommendations from Greg HERERELATED EPISODESE149: Generosity and Breaking the Power of Money (Apple, Spotify)E150: When Alumni Bring the Ice Cream (Apple, Spotify)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodLeave us a message on SpeakPipeVisit our Website ★ Support this podcast ★

Think back to campus in the fall. New Student Outreach. Did you ever have an event that looked like it was going to fall apart before it even got off the ground?Emily McNamara, campus staff in New Jersey and this week's guest, knows exactly what this moment feels like. Just twenty-Four hours before a historic NSO event at New Jersey Institute of Technology, the chapter's funding and reservation were canceled. BUT... because of some top-level staff work and God's provision through alumni, Emily and her team were able to pull off an amazing event that fueled their faithful engagement with new students for the rest of the semester. Enjoy Emily's story!BE A HERO! SUPPORT YOUR CHAPTER!Use this link, search for your chapter, and start supporting today!RELATED EPISODE(S)E87: From Gap Year to Volunteer: Why Failure Should Always Be an Option (Apple, Spotify)STAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodLeave us a message on SpeakPipeVisit our Website ★ Support this podcast ★

Our podcast producer, Roslyn Hernández sits down with Justin Guaman to explore how Gen Z can engage in social justice and civic advocacy. Justin shares his journey from a justice-impacted youth to an advocate for marginalized communities, offering insights on finding courage through community, starting small, and collaborating for change. Tune in to discover how you can make a difference on campus and beyond, one step at a time.   Justin Guaman is a Queens native of Ecuadorian descent. He has been on staff with InterVarsity for five years. And is currently overseeing two student chapters in NYC. Justin has a degree in Criminal Justice from John Jay College. He's been working with justice-impacted youth at Riker's Island, Harlem, and other NYC communities since 2018. Justin's passion for this work is rooted in his journey as a justice-impacted youth. Since then, Justin has been working and wrestling at the intersection of Faith & Justice.   Roslyn M. Hernández creates resources for the spiritual formation and empowerment of emerging generations through her work as Project Manager at the Fuller Youth Institute and Podcast Producer at Chasing Justice. As a Contributor at Think Christian, her thought-provoking articles and conversations bridge the gap between faith and pop culture. Roslyn is also a Spiritual Director, Public Theologian, and Podcaster providing space for Indigenizing, holy listening, discernment, and healing.    We have an active Patreon community where you can access the full video interview and more resources. Support Chasing Justice || Patreon: patreon.com/ChasingJustice  ||  PayPal: paypal.me/ChasingJustice || Donate: chasingjustice.com/donate

“Do what you and your family need. Let go of the cultural and even the church expectations. Just take time to behold — to behold the wondrous mystery of Christ among us and Christ in us and Christ born for us.”  — Leslie Leyland Fields Author and writing teacher Leslie Leyland Fields joins us on the podcast to discuss the beautiful messiness of Advent and the joys of writing one's own story. As we look toward the start of Advent on December 1, some of us might be frantically crafting our to-do lists and dreading a busy month of deadlines. But what if it could be different? Author and writing teacher Leslie Leyland Fields joins us on the podcast to discuss the Advent book she recently edited entitled A Radiant Birth: Advent Readings for a Bright Season. Leslie talks with us about her own complicated history with Advent and Christmas, then offers actionable suggestions for making choices that can shape a more manageable holiday season. We discuss her work as a writing teacher, and Leslie makes a convincing case for the importance of writing one's story. In addition — I'm pleased to tell you that InterVarsity Press is offering a discount on A Radiant Birth for listeners of this podcast. Just use the code IVPWSAP25 for 25% off and free shipping when you purchase the book at ivpress.com. You can find a link to the book and the discount code in the show notes. And if you listen to the end of the credits, you'll hear an excerpt from our conversation where Leslie shares her experience of juggling a teaching career while raising four small children.  So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. Programming Note: We'll be taking Leslie's advice to rest and reconnect in December — which means our airwaves will also be on winter break here at The Women Scholars and Professionals Podcast. We encourage you to catch up on back episodes, get some rest yourself, and watch for our next season to begin in January 2025! — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

Want an early Christmas present? Here's an extra episode!Enjoy Voice of Great Thunder With a Good Medicine Spirit (Terry Wildman) share about his recent IVP release, Birth of the Chosen: A First Nations Retelling of the Christmas Story. Terry also tells about the role this children's book played in the writing of the First Nations Version: An Indigenous Translation of the New Testament.RESOURCESPurchase Birth of the Chosen: A First Nations Retelling of the Christmas StoryPurchase First Nations Version: An Indigenous Translation of the New TestamentPre-Order First Nations Version Psalms and Proverbs: An Indigenous Bible TranslationLearn more about the First Nations VersionSTAY IN TOUCHSocials: @afterivpodLeave us a message on SpeakPipeVisit our Website ★ Support this podcast ★

It's our season finale! We're answering listener questions and talking:-        Staying grounded and emotionally healthy post-election-        Some mistakes people are making in their election analysis-        Why the politics of identity will never go away in America-        How the Church can and can't fight anti-Blackness and other forms of injustice-        Where you can hear us in between seasons-        And a lot more!Mentioned in the Episode:-        Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor by Rev. Caleb Campbell-        Our newsletter from last week with a worship playlist and sermon Jonathan recommended-        The Webinar Intervarsity is doing with Campbell on Tuesday – Register here.-        The article on patriarchy by Frederick Joseph: “For Palestinian Fathers, Sons, and Brothers”-        Our free guide to processing and acting on the injustices you encounterCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Sy Hoekstra: The beauty of the church is not in how good it is. The church is beautiful in the light of Christ, not in the light of its own good work and goodness. The church is beautiful when it is people collectively trying to put their faith in the grace that governs the universe, and not put their faith in their own ability to bring the kingdom of God into this world.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. We have a great show for you today. It's our season four finale. We're answering listener questions and continuing our discussion from our Substack live conversation two weeks ago, about where to go from the Trump election as followers of Jesus.Sy Hoekstra: And because this is the finale, let me just take a quick second to tell you where we are going from here. We are gonna be doing our monthly bonus episodes for our paid subscribers, like we usually do when we are not on a season of this show. We are going to be doing them though slightly differently. You will have the opportunity to hear them at one point if you're not a paid subscriber, because we're gonna record them like we did two weeks ago on Substack Live. So if you want to see those when they are being recorded, download the Substack app. If you get on our free emailing list, you'll be notified when we start. You just need to go ahead and get that app, it's both on iOS and Android.And if you wanna make sure that you're getting our emails in your Gmail inbox, because we've heard some people tell us they're going to the promotions folder or whatever Gmail is trying to do to filter out your spam, but actually filtering out the stuff that you wanna see, you just have to either add us to your contacts, or if it's in the promotions folder, just click the “Not promotion” button that you can see when you open your email. Or you can actually just drag and drop emails that show up in your folders to your inbox, and then it'll ask you, “Hey, do you wanna always put emails from the sender in your inbox?” And you can just click, yes. So do one of those things, add us to your contact, drag and drop, click that “Not promotions” button that'll help you see those notifications from us.Jonathan Walton: If you'd like access to the recordings of those bonus episodes, plus access to our monthly subscriber Zoom chats, become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com. We would so appreciate it and you would be supporting our work that centers personal and informed discussions on faith, politics, and culture to help you seek Jesus and confront injustice. We are two friends resisting the idols of the American church in order to follow Jesus faithfully, and would love for you to join us. So become a paid subscriber at KTFPpress.com.Sy Hoekstra: And we've said this before, but we should probably say it again. If you want a discounted subscription or if money's a barrier to you joining us as a paid subscriber, just email us, info@ktfpress.com. We'll give you a free subscription or a discounted subscription, no questions asked. You will not be the first person to do it if you do. Other people have done it, we've given it to them. We won't make it weird because we want everyone to have access to everything that we're doing. But if you can afford to support us, please as Jonathan said, go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber. Let's jump into it, Jonathan.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, man.Sy Hoekstra: We, a couple weeks ago on our Substack Live, we were talking about processing through grief and like what we have been hearing from people. We've had lots of questions and lots of conversations since then. So we're sort of combining, amalgamating [laughs] lots of subscriber questions into one, or even just questions from friends and family. I just wanna know how you are continuing to process the election and what you're thinking about grief and how we move forward, or how we look back and see what exactly happened.Staying Grounded and Emotionally Healthy Post-ElectionJonathan Walton: Yeah. So I think that one of the things I just have to acknowledge is that I'm tired of talking about it, and not okay talking about it. Like just the level of energy it takes to have regulated, like emotionally regulated healthy conversations is exhausting.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so, just naming that. So last week I think I was in a better place than this week recording. And so I'm recognizing I need to be able to take steps back and set boundaries so that I can be in a healthier place. And I just encourage everybody to do that. We all need rhythms and disciplines that keep us grounded. That is not like, oh, when I'm in this season, I need spiritual discipline. No. We actually are supposed to have them all the time. But I think in moments like these and seasons like this, we actually need them just in a more pointed way. It reminds us that we do. So those are things that I'm doubling down on, like starting to listen to worship music.If you check out last week's newsletter, I actually had a worship set from a worship leader in Columbus, Ohio, who basically said, if you can't sit across someone who has a different political perspective than you, then you probably can't worship with them. So let's start off with worship. And so they made a, I don't know, a six hour playlist of songs from different traditions and said like, play it without skipping it. Without skipping a song. Don't be like, “I don't like this song, I don't like this. I don't like…” This reminds me of them. Like, just listen to the whole album because somebody who is different from you meets Jesus through the words of the song. And he said, “You would never know that I don't like some of the songs that we sing [laughter], but I sing them. And I thought that was just a really honest thing.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. You said it was six hours long?Jonathan Walton: It's a lot. I haven't made it through a third of it.Sy Hoekstra: Okay [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It's long. And the sermon is also linked in the newsletter as well. It's just a great message from Pastor Joshua.Sy Hoekstra: This is a pastor in Ohio that you're familiar with?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: How did you get connected to this?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So someone on the political discipleship team for InterVarsity, shout out to Connie Anderson, who's written…Sy Hoekstra: Oh, great.Jonathan Walton: …a lot of our stuff. Our InterVarsity stuff.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Not KTF stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. She just, she said, “Hey, I really appreciated the sermon and I was able to listen to it, and I'm working my way through the songs. And if I skip a song, I'm gonna go back, because I'm not the only person on my Spotify. Shout out to all the Moana and Frozen tracks that get stuck in there.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: So all that to say, that's like the first big thing, is setting boundaries, trying to have healthier rhythms so that I can be fully present to my family and myself.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Having Difficult Conversations by Meeting People Where They AreJonathan Walton: Also, I think it's really important to remember, particularly when I'm frustrated, I have to remember to meet people where they're at the way that Jesus met me. I have not always known that Christian Nationalism was bad. I didn't always have another term for it that captures the racialized, patriarchal environmental hierarchy of it called White American folk religion. I didn't always know about police brutality and the rural urban divide. I didn't know about those things. And what I desperately needed and unfortunately had, was patient people who were willing to teach me. And so as we're having these conversations, there's a book called Disarming Leviathan, ministering to your Christian Nationalist neighbor. It's really, really good. We're doing an event that you will hear about in our newsletter as well with the author of that booked Caleb Campbell.Sy Hoekstra: And when you say we, in that case again, you mean InterVarsity?Jonathan Walton: Oh, shoot.Sy Hoekstra: It doesn't matter [laughs].Jonathan Walton: I do mean InterVarsity. There's a little bit of overlap here because the season is so fraught.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs]. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Jonathan Walton: Like [laughs], and so you're gonna hear about that in a newsletter as well. InterVarsity Press is promoting it, InterVarsity's promoting it. Pastors and teachers are promoting it because the reality is, we all need to figure out how to tackle difficult conversations.Sy Hoekstra: Yep.Jonathan Walton: And we use that verb specifically, like it's elusive. We have to go after it [laughs] to be able to…Sy Hoekstra: You have to go wrangle it.Jonathan Walton: Yes, because it's hard. It's really, really hard. We would rather run away. We would rather run away from difficult conversations. So meeting people where they're at, we do that because Jesus meets us where we are. Our compassion, our gentleness is in outpouring of the compassion and gentleness that we've meditated on and experienced for ourselves and are willing to embody with other people. So those would be my biggest things from the last week or last two weeks since we last talked about this stuff. What about you?Healthy Reactions to the Election Are Different for Different PeopleSy Hoekstra: Yeah, that's good. We actually had, speaking of people who have a, like a different rhythm or need to adjust something now to be emotionally healthy, we actually had a subscriber, I won't give any details, but write in who's overseas, who basically said, “I've got too much going on in the country that I live in. I can't deal with American stuff right now. I need to unsubscribe from you.” They're on the free list. And I was like, “Man, I understand [laughs].”Jonathan Walton: Yes, right. I would like to unsubscribe from this [laughter]. No, I'm just joking, just joking.Sy Hoekstra: I appreciate that he wrote in to explain why he was unsubscribing. That doesn't necessarily happen a lot…Jonathan Walton: Right. Right, right.Sy Hoekstra: But it's very understandable and it's really sad, but I totally get it. And I want people to take care of themselves in that way. And I think, I mean, the flip side of that is we had a ton of people in the last week or week and a half sign up for the free list because I think a lot of people are just looking for ways to process, right [laughs]?Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: They are looking for people who are having these conversations, which happens. We got started, this company got started during the 2020 election, putting together the anthology that we put together, and we had a lot of response at that point too, and people who are just like, “Yes, I need to hear more of this processing.” And the difference now is there are fortunately, like a lot of people doing this work from all kinds of different angles all around the country, which is a very good thing, I think. We could be tempted to think of it as competition or whatever, but the church [laughs] has to come at this from as many angles as possible. There need to be as many voices doing the work of trying to figure out how to follow Jesus and seek justice as there are people promoting Christian Nationalism, and we're… those numbers are nowhere close to parody [laughs].Jonathan Walton: No.Sy Hoekstra: Not remotely close.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely. No, they are not [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Unfortunately, that's a reality of the American church. So, anyways, I appreciate all those thoughts very much, Jonathan.Mistakes People Are Making in Election AnalysisSy Hoekstra: I think when I'm thinking about the conversations that I've had, I have a couple thoughts that come to mind. I think a lot of the things that I think about in the conversations in the last week and a half are people trying to figure out what happened, like looking back and like playing the blame game [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And the excuses that people are making, or the blame is shifting for why Trump matters now, because you can't say he lost the popular vote anymore. Obviously he won the electoral college the first time, but he lost popular vote, and then he lost the popular vote to Biden plus the electoral college. Now he's won it, and so people are not as able to, to the extent that people were still trying to paint him as an aberration from the norm.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: …that's getting harder. It's getting harder to say, “Oh, this is just a blip on the radar and we'll come back to our normal situation at some point, some undetermined point in the future. But so they're shifting blame to other people. It's like, oh, various non-White groups increased their votes for Trump. Or young people increased their votes for Trump or something.Which Party Wins Tells Us A Lot Less about America Than Who Is an Acceptable Candidate in the First PlaceSy Hoekstra: To me, a lot of that stuff, if you're trying to say that Donald Trump represents a problem with the whole country that you're trying to diagnose how it happened, all those conversations are a little bit silly, because the problem is that he's like a viable candidate who people voted for in the first place. But the people to blame for electing Donald Trump are the people who voted for Donald Trump, which is more than half of the voters in America. Not much more, but more.And the reason it's like a little bit silly to talk about what's different than the prior elections is, the prior elections were like Trump's gonna win this election, the popular vote. Trump's gonna win the popular vote by like two or three percent probably. It could be a little bit different than that, but basically Trump's gonna get slightly more than 50 percent, Kamala Harris is gonna get slightly less than 50 percent. And that's usually how it goes. That is the reality of this, how this country works. We have a winner take all system, and so typically speaking, it's a little over 50 and a little under 50. The swings between who gets elected in any given year, president, we're playing with marginal things. Democratic strategists, Republican strategists are trying to figure out how to fiddle with the margins to get what they want.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: It was only seven states in this country that actually mattered [laughs]. Like 86 percent of the states in this country were decided and then we're just playing with seven states. We're just playing with little numbers. And so all of these, like all Black people went slightly more for Trump. Young people went slightly more for Trump, whatever. It'll go back later. I don't know if you saw this, Jonathan, on Monday this week. So last week, if you're listening to this, John Stewart brought out the map of the 1984 election. Did you see this?Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. It was so interesting [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: It's like it was completely one color.Sy Hoekstra: It's red, yeah.Jonathan Walton: And you're like, “What? Whoa, this looks like a candy cane without the White” [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Right, exactly.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: If you've never seen the Reagan-Mondale electoral map, literally the entire country, except for Minnesota is red. The whole country went for Ronald Reagan. So that's like, it's one of the biggest landslides in history, and the popular vote for Ronald Reagan, I decided to look that up, was less than 59 percent.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Right?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You get the whole country. You have to get 270 electoral votes to win, he got like 520 something.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: He crushed Mondale. But eight years later, bill Clinton is in office and we're kind of back to normal. We're back to America's normal, right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: It's so small, these little things, and we just have to stay focused on, the problem here is that both of our parties in different ways, to different degrees are just infused with White supremacy and White American folk religion and patriarchy and everything else. And Donald Trump can be a viable candidate in the United States.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: That's the problem [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right, that is the problem.Sy Hoekstra: We have to stop talking about, I don't care what Gen Z did. Gen Z will change just like everybody else has changed. Election to election, things will be different. Anybody who thought that, “Oh, just a new generation of people in the United States of America growing up is gonna fundamentally change the United States of America.” How? Why did you think that [laughter]? Why? Why? Why would the children of the people, who were the children of the people, who were the children of the people who have been in the same country for years and years, generation after generation, why would that just be something fundamentally different? It's the same people, they're just a bit younger. I don't know. I never get those kinds of arguments.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Facing the Reality of America's BrokennessSy Hoekstra: What I'm saying is, I think underlying a lot of those arguments though, is a desire to have some control over something. To have something that we can say is certain that we're changing, that we can be the good people that we thought Americans fundamentally were again, or something like that. It's about control and trying to wrap your mind around something. I think instead of just facing the reality that we live in a deeply flawed country.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Which is, should be biblically speaking, unsurprising.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: But it is also difficult. It's unsurprising and it's difficult to deal with. Facing the reality of the brokenness of the world, not a fun thing to do. We've talked about this before.The People to Blame for the Election are the Mostly White and Male People Who Voted for TrumpJonathan Walton: Well, I think it would be helpful for people to remember, in all the things you're talking about, Trump did not win the popular vote last time, he won it this time. Trump won the electoral college, right? Let's actually just for a moment identify the voting population of the United States of America. So there are 336 million people in the United States per the population tracker today, right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: There are 169 million people who voted in the election in 2020. The numbers are not final for 2024.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. It's gonna be less, it'll be less than that though.Jonathan Walton: It's less. So let's say 165 million people voted in the election this time. And that's generous. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So that's less than 50 percent of the country that actually voted. Then we take into the account that 70 percent of this country of the voting population is still White. Okay friends?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Roughly, I would say. Yeah, that's true.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: People give different estimates of that, but it doesn't get much lower than like 65 [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. So let's even go with 65 percent.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Yeah. Right. [laughs].Jonathan Walton: So let's say 65 percent of that voting population is White, and then half of that population is male. And Trump did an exceptional job at mobilizing White slash men in the United States to go and vote. An exceptional job. Looking at that population and saying, “We are gonna make sure that you feel invited, welcomed and empowered.” Joe Rogan's show [laughs], these other influencers, how he advertised. If you look at who was on stage in these different venues when he was campaigning, all men. And the women, I think it's very important to notice this. I think when he gave his acceptance speech, his now chief of staff that they called the Iron Lady or something like that. The Ice Lady, Iron Lady, something like that.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: That's what they called her. And then she declined the invitation to speak. And so I think that when we are sitting here saying, “Oh man, how could people vote this way?” We are not talking about the entire population of the United States.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.Jonathan Walton: We are talking about a little less than half of the voters in the United States, and then we are talking about 50 percent of that group. We're not talking about people under 18, generation alpha. We're not talking about the vast majority of Gen Z. We're talking about the same voters we've been talking about for the last 30 years [laughs]. The voting population of White adults in the United States. That's who we're talking about. We could blame, oh, this group or that group, but I agree with what you're saying. We have to face the reality that at some point we have to talk about race and we have to talk about gender. When we talk about identity politics, we don't name White and male as an identity.Sy Hoekstra: Right. Yeah.Jonathan Walton: We don't. We call it something else. We say, oh, like the working class or all these other things. But we need to just say, if we look at how White people are voting and we look at how men are voting, then we have the answer to I think, how Trump was elected. But those two things are third rails. Or like in New York City, you don't touch the third rail, it's electric because of the subway.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: So we don't talk about that. And I think, I don't say that because I wanna blame people, I'm just naming statistics. These are just numbers. The numbers of people who are voting, the demographics they represent, this is the group. So when Sy says, who is responsible for Trump's election, it is the majority of White Americans who vote, and men in this country of all races who lean towards hey, opting into patriarchy in ways that are unhelpful.Sy Hoekstra: It's not of all races [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Well, I will say that the increases of Black men, the increases of Latino men, Trump did grow his share of the Black male vote by double digits. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, but it's still a minority of the Black male vote.Jonathan Walton: It is. I'm just saying, I do not want to discount the reality that patriarchy is attractive to all races.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah.Jonathan Walton: That's what I wanna name. And so when Fred Joseph, amazing author, talks about the attractiveness of patriarchy, I think that is something that all men need to say no to.Sy Hoekstra: This is an essay that we highlighted in our newsletter like a month or two ago.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I'll put the link in the show notes.Jonathan Walton: We have to say no to patriarchy.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so anyway, that's my rant in response to this [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, no. That's good, and that actually gets into it, the other thing I wanted to talk about was, which even though I think some of these blame game conversations are such like nonsense, we are still able within those nonsense conversations to say a lot of things that are just demonstrably false [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.The Politics of Identity Will Never Die in AmericaSy Hoekstra: And what you just said is one of them. Like I've seen some people talking about, “Oh, the democrats lost because they ran on identity politics,” or, “Identity politics is over.” And I'm like, “What are you talking about [laughter]?” Donald Trump is all identity politics.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: It was all about White men and how they were gonna be comfortable and empowered how Christians are gonna be in powered again.Jonathan Walton: How women are gonna be taken care of, whether they like it or not.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah right. Men are gonna be back in power. How citizens are gonna have what they deserve, and then we're gonna stop giving it to the illegal immigrants, right?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Like everything Donald Trump does is about identity. And the bigger thing to say is identity politics in America is not a current or temporary trend. Identity politics is baked into the foundation of the country, and it was not Black people who did it [laughs]. It was the founding fathers who created a system where only White men could be naturalized and only rich White men could vote, and we enshrined racial slavery, all that stuff. Identity politics has been here from day one. It's not like a liberal thing. It was a thing that we baked in on purpose, and it's a thing that came from European culture and it's still fundamental to European culture to this day.Sy Hoekstra: And I, what I think what people mean when they talk about identity politics is, it's another one of the endless string of words that we use since racial slurs became impolite. We can't say the N word anymore. It's another way of saying it's Black people talking about Black people stuff. Right? When people talk about identity politics, they're saying the wrong identity politics, because everybody is talking about identity politics all the time. They're just, like you said, not calling it identity politics. They're talking about “real America” [laughs], right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: They're talking about, we know what they mean by real America. They're talking about White men and they're just saying this is the default culture. We're all just assuming this is the default culture, everything else is identity politics. Nonsense.Jonathan Walton: Right, right.Sy Hoekstra: So that's one of the nonsense things that shows up in the conversation as a result of a nonsense thing that we say that we think all the time on some subconscious level that we're not always talking about identity politics, even though we absolutely are. And it's because it's been forced upon us. It's not because somebody's trying to create divisions.Jonathan Walton: Right.The Democrats Are the Party the Non-White Working Class Voted ForSy Hoekstra: A similar thing is, I heard people talking about the Democrats are not the party of the working class anymore. The working class is not voting for the Democrats because, and then, obviously the White working class is voting for Trump, and then start to talk about the gains that Trump made among the non-White working class. Again, the majority of everybody in the non-White working class is not voting for Donald Trump. And assuming that voters have some idea of what's good for them and who better represents them, maybe not who best represents them, but who better represents them, the Democrats are still the party of the non-White work—we're talking about the White working class again, you know what I mean? We're trying to make it about economics and it's actually about race. That's a thing that we're doing all the time, constantly [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Well [laughs], the reality is that economics is about race.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: It's like, if we could just like get some daylight between them, then maybe we could make a separation. And so then it just becomes about keeping that separation in place, because if we bring them back together, the system falls apart. It literally crumbles if you call it out. And something that I'll just name, because I think in all these conversations, even as me and Sy are saying, oh, this Democrat about that Democrat, like this is the Republican or that race, when we call out differences, when we name things, our goal is not to dehumanize anybody, dismiss people's needs or grievances, or minimize the reality and perspectives that people have.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely.Jonathan Walton: The goal and hope is that we would actually grasp reality, name the idol and follow Jesus.Sy Hoekstra: Right. Yeah, exactly.Jonathan Walton: That is our goal and our hope and our aim, because if we can't say it as is, we will never be able to address and communicate with the most marginalized people. And we'll never be able to communicate a vision that draws people in power towards something even more loving and beautiful, unless we name the thing as it is. And so hopefully that is breaking through to folks who might come across this conversation.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, I agree. I can get very passionate about these facts and stats and whatever. And I'm not trying to say that anyone who doesn't…Jonathan Walton: No [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: …agree with me is somehow a bad person. I'm just, this is, it's important, like you said. It's an important goal that I'm trying to move us toward.Jonathan, we got a great question from a listener that I wanted to talk about. You cool moving on, or do you have more thoughts?Jonathan Walton: No, no. Let's do it.What Can the Church Do about Continuing Anti-Blackness?Sy Hoekstra: Alright. So what can the church, practically speaking, do about ongoing anti-Blackness in the country? And not just correct disinformation or post on social media, what can the church practically speaking do? That was the question. Jonathan, solve anti-Blackness. Go.Support Black Spaces, No Strings AttachedJonathan Walton: There's a reason that enrollment at HBCUs is surging right now.Sy Hoekstra: Ah, okay.Jonathan Walton: And that is because when the world is unsafe or feels unsafe, or the reality that, “Oh, trying to get to the master's table and eat is actually not that great,” we're gonna recede back into our communities. And so I think one thing that the church can do is support Black spaces. So financially support Black spaces, empower Black spaces. I did not say create Black spaces moderated by you, that you will then curate for, andSy Hoekstra: Control.Jonathan Walton: Yes, control would be the right word, for an experience that other people can observe. Like, “Oh, this is what Black people really think.” Like no, just support Black spaces. Black, sacred, safe spaces that help and care for us in this moment. The number of Black women that are being harassed online, like showing up to their jobs, walking down the streets in different cities, is radically disturbing to me.And if we wanna get into the intersectionality of it, like when we talk about like Black, queer people, the numbers that the Trevor Project is recording, it's like the Trevor Project is a alphabet community support organization, particularly to prevent suicide. And so their phone calls are up in the last two weeks. So I think we as a church, as followers of Jesus need to create and then sustain spaces for Black folks to hang out in and feel a part of that we control. Kathy Khang, the author of Raise Your Voice said in a workshop that I was in one time, “Spaces that marginalized communities are in, we feel like renters, we don't feel like owners.” So we can't move the furniture. We're not really responsible for anything, but we're just, we could exist there and do what we need to do.Sy Hoekstra: But it's not a home.Jonathan Walton: It's not a home. And so I would want to encourage churches, small groups, bible studies, community groups, parachurch organizations to create spaces for Black folks by Black folks to be able to thrive in and feel a sense of community in. The other thing that I would say is that the church could educate itself around the complexities of Blackness. And so there's the Black, racially assigned Black Americans in the United States that are the descendants of enslaved people. Then there's Caribbean folks that are the descendants of enslaved Africans and the colonizers there. And then there's Central and South American and Mexican. There's a lot of beauty and complexity in Blackness.And so obviously, Ta-Nehisi Coates's book The Message, talks about that in ways that are exceptionally helpful and complex. So that would be a great book to dive into. And again, create educational, engaging spaces around. This education, quote- unquote, educating yourself, not asking Black folks to spend their time educating you. Doing that work, creating those spaces, supporting those spaces financially, time, resources, et cetera, and creating spaces for Black folks to feel and be safe, I think would be just exceptionally helpful in this season. Yes, share on social media. Yes, send messages to your friends. Yes, do all those things on your own time and on your own dime. But I think these are two things that could be helpful because it's not gonna go away the next four years. It's probably gonna be more intense. And so I think creating and sustaining of those places would be helpful.Sy Hoekstra: At least sustaining, you don't have to create.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, that's true. There are some that are already there. That's true. Find a place, donate, support, host. Hey, provide the space. Buy food, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And the reason I say that is you could end up with people who just go to Black people and are like, “Hey, we'll give you money and you get to do a bunch of work to create a space or,” you know what I mean? And there's also the instinct to say, if we're gonna support something, we have to create it.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: We don't. We can support things that other people are already doing. There might be people in your congregation who are already doing that as their job. Just give them money. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: The more you're not in charge, the fewer strings are attached. Jonathan already talked about that. Even if those strings are implicit or not even there, but they're just perceived to be there, and that could be a problem too. So it's good to just give money to stuff that already exists or give support. Give volunteer work, whatever. Good, I appreciate that. Thank you for having practical answers.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. No worries. I'm glad you sent it to me earlier so I could think about it.Educating Ourselves on Fighting Racism Works (Sometimes)Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Yeah [laughs]. Continuing to educate ourselves is a good thing too. And I think I've actually seen some of the difference in that. I know this is, there is so far to go and there's so much to do in terms of educating ourselves, but I can personally tell you from having watched a lot of Christians go through the Trayvon Martin case and Ferguson and everything. And I'm saying Christians who want to be supportive of Black people, who want to be helpful, who want to be anti-racist, all that stuff. I saw a lot of people who in 2012, ‘13, ‘14 were just like babies. Just starting out, didn't know what to say. Didn't know whether they could go protest, didn't know why All Lives Matter wasn't appropriate. Like, “Don't all lives matter though?” All that kind of stuff.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Even when you're trying to be helpful, you know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Right, right, right.Sy Hoekstra: And then 2020 comes around and I saw a bunch of those exact same people being like, “I'm gonna go march! Black Lives Matter, let's go.” You know what I mean? So people really can learn and they really can change. And the problem is that you just have to keep doing it to every new generation of people that comes up, and it takes years to do. It's not something that you can do in a couple of sermons or one course that you take or whatever. And again, I know they're so far to go, I'm not trying to say… I understand that you can work for years. A White person can work for years, and the differences can be trivial and frustrating and like enraging. But it's also true that people can learn [laughs]. And talking about meeting people where they are, that's kind of what I'm saying to White people as we're trying to educate ourselves and others.Educating Each Other about Race Is a Long, Continuous ProcessJonathan Walton: Yeah, and to build off of something that you said before too, it's like Donald Trump was elected eight years ago, and some people were not alive eight years ago. And some people were 10 years old, eight years ago. So they didn't even…Sy Hoekstra: And now they're voting.Jonathan Walton: And now they're voting. So like Trayvon Martin was killed 12 years ago. They may not have the same knowledge as you, the same awareness as you. So yes, the education and the engagement is ongoing because there's always people that are coming up that had no idea. And I think just going back to what we said in the first part, like you were just saying again, meeting people where they're at because maybe they were too young and they just don't know. Like I was having a conversation this past week and someone said, “Yeah, my mom and dad have been sick. I've made 10 trips to another city the last two years to try and take care of them.” Maybe their world is just small because they've been engaged in loving the people closest to them through illness.We must meet people as best as we possibly can where they're at. And I confess, I have not always done that. And so being able to not be prideful and not be dismissive, and not look down on someone from being ignorant to simply not knowing. And even loving someone who's exceptionally misinformed. As we're doing this recording, one of my friends is meeting with a Christian nationalist right now. Like they're going there. They said, “Alright, can you pray for me, I'm going to have this conversation.” Because it is one conversation at a time that these things change.Sy Hoekstra: I appreciate that. You just reminded me of another story I had, and I won't give details about the individual, but there's someone in my life who is a White person who's from the south, who lives in New York City, who's just one of those people that makes Black people uncomfortable, Jonathan. Just like the moment you meet him, you're like, “something… hmm, I don't know.” And I've heard other Black people talk about him this way. I've heard stuff that's made me uncomfortable. And he was just an easy person to kind of like shun or avoid.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, for sure.Sy Hoekstra: Until I ran into another extremely kind Black person who told me… we ended up not because of me, because of someone else, in a conversation about this guy, and how he sort of makes people uncomfortable. And he was like, yeah, but he just said in not so many words, I kind of tolerate him because he lost his entire family in Hurricane Katrina, and he lives in New York City and basically has nobody and just works this kind of dead-end job and is not a very happy person. Actually, he is kind of a happy person. He's sort of trying to make the best of it, and he doesn't know what he is doing. You know what I mean? It's just like, you have one of those moments with someone where you're like, “Boy, that changes my view of this person.”Jonathan Walton: Right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: I still don't think any of the things that you're saying to make people uncomfortable are okay, and I'll try and interfere in whatever limited way I can or whatever. But you hear something like that, your heart changes a little bit. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Your attitude changes and like, you just, we gotta get to know each other better. We gotta listen better.We Need Endurance and Truly Practical WisdomSy Hoekstra: I think this question about what can the church do about anti-Blackness, for people who are like kind of our age or older, or people who have been through the 2010s and everything that happened up till now. It's just, it's a question of resilience. And whenever you're engaged in anti-Blackness work or any sort of activist work, you're gonna have these questions of resilience of like, what can we do, because this problem is just still going. And then there's another question of the practicality of it when you're asking that question in the church. I'm gonna define the question a little bit or reframe the question a little bit and then give answers.When you ask the question of something like, what can we practically do about a problem in a Christian context, the question is a little bit strange sometimes, and I think you just gave some good practical answers, but we have both noticed, we talked about this recently. In the Christian world, the word “Practical” often means something different than it does to the rest of the world [laughs].Jonathan Walton: That's true. That's true. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: The phrase practical application just seems to have a different meaning to pastors than it does to everybody else [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And what it tends to mean to professional Christians is, when you're talking about practical application, you're talking about a new way of thinking or a new goal for how you should feel about something.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Or like a new “heart posture” or something like that.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: It's a new attitude, but it's not practical. You actually said recently, you came out of a sermon going, “Okay, I kind of know how to think, I don't know what to do with my body. Now, after listening to this sermon.” You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right, right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: I know what to do with my heart and my head. I don't know what to do with my hands and my feet. And we're supposed to be the hands and feet of Jesus, not the heart and the brain.Jonathan Walton: Right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: And I think, actually, I don't wanna sound like a conspiracy theorist here, but I think that problem, it at least promotes racism [laughter]. It promotes institutions remaining as they are. You know what I mean? It promotes, like when we talk about practicality and we're just talking about how we kind of think about things, like the world of ideas and emotions and not what we do politically or whatever, that is a subtle way to reinforce status quo institutions.Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely, it is.Sy Hoekstra: And it's not anything to do with the person who asked the question. I'm just acknowledging the reality of how that question lands to Christian ears.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes. Especially institutionalized Christians. Yes, absolutely.The Church Isn't Necessarily the Best Place to Go to Fight RacismSy Hoekstra: And another thing is, I will say, we're talking about the church, the whole wide capital C church. The Black church, is gonna keep doing what it's always done. Black church is gonna do anti-racist work. Obviously, there are problems and questions and whatever that Black people have in their conversations among themselves within the Black church about how to do that best, or what things may be getting in the way of that or whatever. But if you're talking about big picture here, Black church is always fighting racism. I think we're kind of asking questions about the rest of the church. The White church in particular, and then some other churches as well. If we're just talking about the American church in general and what it can do to fight anti-Blackness, if you look at the history of just big picture American church, there are Christians in the United States on both sides of this past election.There are Christians in the United States in history on both sides of the Civil War. There are Christians in the United States on both sides of segregation versus civil rights. There are Christians in the abolition movement, there are obviously Christians in the pro-slavery movement. Christians set up the system of racism and slavery. European Christians did.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: The American church, if you just look at history, is a weird place, is a weird institution to look to, to end anti-Blackness. We have been consistently ambivalent about it for centuries. Do you know what I mean? I understand…Jonathan Walton: No, listen. It's true, and that's sad.Sy Hoekstra: Yes, yes.Jonathan Walton: That reality is depressing, right.Good Things Come from God, Not the ChurchSy Hoekstra: Horribly depressing. And so I understand, one, you just don't want that to be real. So you say, “Hey, what can we do?” Or, you want, and when I say you, again, I don't mean the question asker because I haven't had a conversation or back-and-forth. I'm just saying this is what people could be asking when they ask this question. It could also be the instinct of a lot of White evangelicals, which I can tell you this question asker is not, have the instinct when we say, what can the church do, of kind of thinking that if there's anything good is going to happen in the world, it has to come from the church, and that is so wrong. It is not biblically accurate. You can't look at scripture and go, “Yeah, everything good has to come from the church.” Goodness comes from God. God is the source of goodness, and God sends the rain on the righteous and the unrighteous, and we are very much among the unrighteous. God is the source of goodness, and so we need to acknowledge that we can find goodness outside of the church.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, that's a point worth repeating.Sy Hoekstra: Right [laughs]. We can find goodness outside of the church. I will repeat it [laughter]. We can in our congregations have fights that can go on for years and years about how we can just try and move anyone toward anti-Blackness work, and you can work for forever and you can see no fruit. And you could have spent all that time taking the few Christians, because there's always a handful, even in a [laughs], in any church, there's a few people who are sympathetic to whatever you're trying to do.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You can just take them and you are the church, you and your Christians, and go do work with somebody else. You can go to your local mutual aid organization. You can go to your local Black Lives Matter chapter. You can go to whoever. You can go find the people who are doing the work and work with them, and that's fine, because it's still good and it therefore still comes from God. And we don't have to subtly participate or subconsciously participate in the idea that everything good has to come from the church, which is ultimately a colonial and colonizing idea. That is what a church that is going into a country trying to colonize it wants you to think, “Everything good comes from us, so you gotta come here [laughs] for the good stuff. And all those people out there, those are the bad people.”Jonathan Walton: [inhales deeply and sighs] Right. No, I mean, yeah, everything you're saying is true. That was my big sigh there [laughter].All Justice Work Requires Real, Local CommunitySy Hoekstra: So I read a thing this week from Camille Hernandez who wrote a really great book called The Hero and the W***e, which is a look through a womanist theological lens at what we can learn from what the Bible says about basically sexual violence. Fascinating book. Anyways, she was talking about her reading of Mariame Kaba, who I've cited before in this show, who is a famous abolitionist organizer, who basically said a lot of people who have a lot of influence, activists who have a lot of influence, can be sort of confused and unmoored at times like this because they have a lot of influence. They have a lot of people that they can call to go do a march or whatever. But what they don't have is a local community. So like what I was just talking about, taking the few people in your church, if you have a few people in your church and going and doing the work somewhere else, that's your small community.You need people who are on the same page as you, who you love, and they love you and you're there to support each other, and they will ground you in times like this, doing that work together. We'll ground you in times like this and it will give you a way to move forward. It will give you a sense of purpose, it will give you accountability. That's also a fraught word if you grew up in the church [laughter]. But it will give you the good kind of accountability to be able to do the work of anti-Blackness or fight any other kind of injustice, frankly. So that's one important thing.KTF's PACE Guide Will Help You Engage Practically with InjusticeSy Hoekstra: I also think if you want a good framework for how to do things practically when you are fighting anti-Blackness or other forms of injustice, go get our PACE guide [laughs]. We have a guide that we produced a few months ago.If you have signed up recently on our newsletter, or if you want to sign up for our free mailing list, you get it in the welcome email. If you were on our list before a few months ago, you have it in one of your old emails. It's basically a guide for when you encounter issues of injustice in the news or in your everyday life or wherever, how to process it and do something about it in a way that is, actually takes into account your limitations and your strengths, and helps you think through those things and help you kind of grow as you run through this cycle of steps and questions and prayers that we have for you to go through as you are thinking through these things. So PACE is the acronym. You can find out what it stands for and how to go through it if you go get that guide, sign up for our free emailing list if you don't have it. And that will give you a good sense of how to think through you personally in your context, how you can fight anti-Blackness.Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: But yeah, on a bigger scale, the reason I'm talking about small things like community and how you personally can work, is I'm not thinking on as grand a scale as what can the church do to end anti-Blackness. Because we're not God, we are not saviors. We are not here to fix everything. God is here to do all those things. So I'm more asking, how do I join in with stuff that's already happening? And again, that's not like a correction to the question asker. It's just where I'm at [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Well no, it's a reorientation.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: I think something that, and I don't know if this is a generational thing, and I think that me being 38 years old, I have been shaped in a certain way to believe and want institutions to answer big questions as opposed to gathering a group of people and having a community instead of an institution. There's still work that God is doing in me around that, in that communities are vehicles for transformation in the kingdom and institutions it seems are vehicles for power in the world. That's something I'm wrestling with myself because I do think that one of the answers to anti-Blackness is beloved community, not as a concept, but like a practical thing. Like we are checking in on each other, we are going out to dinner, we are sharing recipes.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.Jonathan Walton: We are sending memes and funny videos like that. That is actually some aid that can lift our spirits each day amidst an empire that desires to destroy us.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I think a lot of my journey trying to figure out how to do more justice work and follow Jesus, has been asking those smaller questions about what can I do in my own community? Just because I have, you and I, we have limited influence, and we have a church institution that has supported anti-Blackness in a lot of ways and those are just realities. And they're really sad, and the idea that a lot of the church is kind of useless and sort of opposed to the things of God, a lot of people don't wanna accept that. But I think if you don't accept that, you're gonna be running into these frustrations a lot. Like why is the church not doing this? And then trying to find probably solace in just really small things. Like okay, is my church's theology better than yours, or is my… You know, like in things that are not making a difference in the world [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. Right.The Church Has to Trust in Grace, Not Save the WorldSy Hoekstra: So, I don't know, man. Look, the beauty of the church is not in how good it is. The church is beautiful in the light of Christ, not in the light of its own good work in goodness. The church is beautiful because… the church is beautiful when, not because, when [laughs] it is people collectively trying to put their faith in the grace that governs the universe, and not put their faith in their own ability to bring the kingdom of God into this world. And that's such a hard thing to do. We so wanna make an institution that is good, that is fundamentally good and that we're a part of it [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Well, it's a hard thing to do and accept.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.Jonathan Walton: Because in how we have been cultured downstream of colonization, if there is no effort, then I don't get a gold star, then I'm not included. Like, what do you mean? What do you mean that I'm supposed to play a small part? No, no. I'm supposed to be a star.Sy Hoekstra: I'm supposed to change the world.Jonathan Walton: I'm supposed to change the world, and I'm supposed to build something. I'm supposed to make something. Like we're an entrepreneurial event, we're supposed to do that. And Jesus hung out for 30 years, and then went and got 12 seemingly disqualified people [laughs] to go and do this thing, and then drafted Paul who was woefully unhelpful, the majority of Jesus' journey to then go and take his stuff to the rest of the world. Come on man. This is [laughs]… it's really hard to say yes to that.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: But when you experience it like you were saying, to live in the grace that governs the universe changes your life.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. People who are free of the need to prove themselves by defeating evil, right [laughs]?Jonathan Walton: Lord have mercy [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: That—look, to me that is a beautiful thing. That is one of the things that animates me, that motivates me. That makes me want to get out there and do more. Which is, I don't know, it's counterintuitive. It's counterintuitive to me, but it also works on me. So [laughs] I'm gonna keep focusing on it.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Season Wrap-Up Thoughts, Outro, and OuttakeSy Hoekstra: Do you have more thought—I think that's a good place to end it, Jonathan. I don't know if you have more thoughts.Jonathan Walton: No, I don't have more thoughts.Sy Hoekstra: Okay, great.Jonathan Walton: I appreciate that you as a White person, or racially assigned White person who's aware of their heritage and trying to engage as best you possibly can across this difference, have so many thoughts. I think that is helpful actually.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, good. Thanks. I appreciate that [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I say that because there's a pastor that I follow, Ben Cremer, he's in Idaho, and experiences that I've had with different leaders, it is exceptionally empowering and feels like a burden is lifted off of my shoulders when people who don't have to carry the burden of Blackness are trying to be thoughtful around how to stop anti-Blackness.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, I mean, ditto ableism man.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: If this is your first episode, I'm blind and Jonathan does the same thing to me on those grounds. And I think that's a lot of why our thoughts in relationship works. I'm not good at taking compliments, so I'm just throwing it back on you [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. No worries. It's all good. If you haven't seen it, somebody should google “Christian Affirmation Rap Battle” where they just try to compliment battle each other. It is amazing. [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: I'm absolutely gonna do that because that sounds like brilliant and pointed satire.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Alright. Thank you all so much for listening. This has been an incredible season, man. I've had a lot of fun. Fun is a relative word [laughter] when we're talking about the things that we're doing. I've had, I don't know, a very motivating and helpful and stimulating time talking to a lot of the people that we talked to four years ago when we started this, who wrote for us.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: If you haven't listened to those interviews, go back in the season, they're really, really helpful. I feel like they're probably even more helpful in light of how the election turned out. And I don't know, I just appreciate this. I feel like it's been fun. We didn't do it this time, but when we're doing Which Tab Is Still Open and adding, talking about some of our newsletter highlights, I've really appreciated that. I feel like it makes the episode very meaty when we have an interview and some other conversation in there too, and I've just liked what we've put out this season. So thank you, Jonathan for participating in that. Thank you everybody so much for listening.Jonathan Walton: Yep. Yep. And I'm deeply appreciative. I think a brief Which Tab is Still Open that I thought was gonna close was our anthology.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, alright.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] I will say we started this four years ago with the anthology and as we're ending this season, the anthology is probably one of the most relevant things.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: The leaders that wrote in it, the contributors to it, that work and those essays, I hate and love that they are still relevant.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, right. Same.Jonathan Walton: …and helpful. If you don't have a copy, you should go get one.Sy Hoekstra: Keepingthefaithbook.com, that's where you can find it.Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: Thank you all so much for listening. Remember, get the Substack app to listen to our monthly recordings of the, the live recordings of our bonus episodes. And if you want to get the recordings of those bonus episodes after the fact, or join our monthly subscriber Zoom calls, become a paid subscriber @ktfpress.com. Or get a discounted or free subscription by just writing into us if money is an obstacle. Make sure you add us to your contacts or drag and drop our emails to your inbox if they're in your promotions folder, just so that you can get everything from us that you need. That's how you're gonna get notified if you don't have the app. That's how you'll get notified when our Substack Lives start.Our theme song is Citizens by Jon Guerra. Our podcast Art is by Robin Burgess. Transcripts by Joyce Ambale, and our editing for a lot of this season was done by Multitude Productions. We are so incredibly grateful for them, they have been friendly and fantastic. Thank you, Brandon, our editor.Jonathan Walton: Appreciate you.Sy Hoekstra: I produced this show along with our incredible paid subscribers. Thank you so much. If you are one of those paid subscribers, we will see you next month. Otherwise, we will see you for season five.Jonathan Walton: See y'all.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: A multi disc Encyclopedia Britannica.Jonathan Walton: Basically.Sy Hoekstra: Do you remember those? Did you have that when you were a kid?Jonathan Walton: I, we definitely bought, my mama definitely bought them. You are absolutely right.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: She did. That man showed up with that suitcase and he left empty handed. That was his goal, he made it.Sy Hoekstra: Oh no [laughs]. Oh no.Jonathan Walton: And you best believe we read all them books.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

"We need to be cautious about hyperbole, about dramatizing things before they are reality. One of the major issues we are facing in politics for a decade or more now is the erosion of truth, the erosion of fact based information and that comes in lots of different forms and lots of different directions, but the misrepresentation of one another and the ways that fear is evoked in people is extremely powerful and can be dangerous." — Miranda Zapor Cruz Listen in on our fall book club interview as Women Scholars and Professionals book club host Jasmine Obeyesekere conducts an online discussion with author and professor Miranda Zapor Cruz where they talk about our primary citizenship in the Kingdom of God and how that relates to the important task of political engagement. In this finale of our Fall Book Club, we engage in conversation with Miranda Zapor Cruz about her book Faithful Politics: Ten Approaches to Christian Citizenship and Why It Matters. You'll enjoy this rich conversation even if you weren't able to participate in the book club! Miranda Zapor Cruz helps us to envision what faithful citizenship looks like, from the lens of being citizens of God's kingdom. She talks about the reality of Christians who share a common faith thinking very differently about politics. She discusses the kind of spiritual disposition we need to exhibit in the wake of the elections and offers us practical advice on how we can have constructive conversations in our churches with Christians who think differently from us. She reminds us of the mission of the Church and our witness in how we engage with politics. Miranda Zapor Cruz is professor of historical theology at Indiana Wesleyan University and Chair of the School of Theology and Ministry. She teaches courses in systematic theology, church history, and American and global Christianity. Her research, writing, and speaking focus on faith and politics, religious nationalism, and theological foundations for justice. She directs The Sacred Alliance, a subsidiary of Wesley Seminary which helps denominations, churches, and pastors move from simply affirming women in ministry leadership to implementing their support practically. She is also a preacher with a deep love for the church and sees her teaching and writing as a ministry in service of the Kingdom of God. Miranda holds a PhD in religion, politics, and society from Baylor University, and an MDiv from Princeton Theological Seminary. She lives in Indiana with her husband and daughter. So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

“I love the relational dimension of teaching, where you get to meet someone at the point of their curiosity or openness, right at their learning edge, and help them into a place of seeing something more complexly or shifting a perspective in such a way that it changes something, for them and for me. It feels magical to me. It still does, after so many years. I think teaching is a pastoral ministry.”  — Marilyn McEntyre Spiritual writer and speaker Marilyn McEntyre joins us on the podcast to talk about leaning into the darkness of winter and uncovering our creative gifts in that quiet space.  It's November, and winter is just around the corner. What might you do to embrace the quiet and depth of this season? Spiritual writer and professor Marilyn McEntyre joins us on the podcast to discuss her book Midwinter Light: Meditations for the Long Season. In our conversation, Marilyn shares her thoughts on creativity, slowing down, and hope as we discuss life in academia and the challenges of our world. Marilyn offers her own thoughtful wisdom on engaging with the news of the day, as well as some tips for incorporating play into your life. And if you listen to the end of the credits, you'll hear an excerpt where Marilyn shares her best writing strategies for people in academia. So jump right in! We're so glad you're here. — Ann Boyd For show notes or more information please visit our article at The Well. If you'd like to support the work of InterVarsity's Women Scholars and Professionals, including future podcasts such as this episode, you can do so at givetoiv.org/wsap. Thank you for listening!

Amy Dixon is the author of three picture books—Maurice the Unbeastly, Sophie's Animal Parade, and Marathon Mouse, as well as a middle-grade novel, Annie B., Made for TV. When she's not writing, she is editing and marketing other people's books. She writes from her home in Clovis, CA, where she lives on a steady diet of popcorn and coffee.   Rob Dixon is the author of Together in Ministry: Women and Men in Flourishing Partnerships. In addition to serving on InterVarsity staff for more than twenty-six years, Rob teaches at Fuller Theological Seminary and Fresno Pacific University. In his free time, Rob enjoys pickle ball, long runs, and cheering for the LA Dodgers (boooo).   Along with illustrator Jennifer Davidson, Amy and Rob have written a beautiful picture book entitled, Penny Preaches.   Articles mentioned: Should I Stay or Should I Go? Guidance for Egalitarians in Complementarian Contexts   Raising Up Allies: A Standardized Pathway for Developing Men into Allies to Women