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Hosted by craig constantine
Hosted by craig constantine
4 episodes with craig constantine
2 episodes with craig constantine
2 episodes with craig constantine
What happens when you stop trying so hard and learn to find power through subtraction rather than addition? Wing Chun training in a Hong Kong living room involves hours of standing still with no sparring, forcing practitioners to confront inner demons and abandon Western goal-seeking mentality. "I'll tell you, Craig, this was the hardest thing at that time that I had to go through, both physically and mentally, because […] it's just so difficult, you know, standing still there, not moving. It's just so difficult! All these inner demons start to come up. You start thinking, and you know, there's nowhere to hide." ~ Nima King (5:17) Nima King describes his journey from training as a teenaged bouncer in Sydney, to becoming a student of Grandmaster Chu in Hong Kong, where his expectations of intense sparring and rooftop battles were replaced by hours of standing practice in a small living room. The training focused on empty hand forms rather than fighting techniques, creating a physically and mentally challenging experience where inner demons surfaced and there was nowhere to hide. Grandmaster Chu provided hands-on guidance through tactile cues, manipulating posture and stance to help students release tension points gradually rather than through sudden breakthrough moments. The practice required abandoning the Western mindset of conceptualization and goal-seeking in favor of embodied experience, with Nima's teacher eventually banning him from asking questions to force this transition. The conversation explores how martial arts principles apply to modern life, including parenting and professional goals. Nima discusses the challenge of not trying too hard despite his natural inclination toward the mentality of pushing through pain and injury. The practice teaches that letting go of control represents a powerful act rather than laziness or apathy, and that vulnerability challenges conventional masculine ideals of strength through aggression. Grandmaster Chu exemplified this power through humility, always bowing lower and greeting students with warmth rather than displays of dominance. The art becomes about subtraction rather than accumulation, finding ways to achieve goals with less effort by allowing things to happen rather than forcing them. Takeaways Art of subtraction — The practice centers on removing tension and thinking rather than accumulating more techniques and knowledge. Embodied learning versus intellectual understanding — True martial arts mastery requires moving beyond conceptualization and goal-seeking to direct physical experience. Standing practice — Hours of stationary training in Wing Chun forms create confrontation with inner demons and reveal hidden tension points. Power through vulnerability — Real strength comes from humility and openness rather than aggression and displays of dominance. Letting go of control — Releasing the illusion of control represents a powerful and necessary practice in both martial arts and daily life. Western versus Eastern training approaches — The goal-oriented Western mindset conflicts with traditional Chinese martial arts teaching methods that resist curriculum and structure. Tactile teaching methods — Hands-on guidance through physical manipulation of posture and stance provides direct transmission of knowledge beyond verbal instruction. Marathon not sprint mentality — Sustainable practice requires wisdom about energy management and avoiding burnout despite natural inclinations to go all in. Teacher-student dynamics — A master may ban questions entirely to force students beyond intellectual grasping toward direct experience. Applying practice to parenting — Martial arts lessons about letting go transfer to raising children, finding balance between freedom and structure. Humble mastery — Grandmaster Chu demonstrated true power through kindness, bowing lower than students, and warmth rather than displays of superiority. Not trying too hard — Finding ways to achieve goals with less effort by allowing rather than forcing outcomes. Resources Mindful Wing Chun — Nima King's online training platform offering comprehensive instruction in the Wing Chun system as taught by Grandmaster Chu Shong Tin, featuring hundreds of hours of instructional videos focused on internal power development and mindful practice. Grandmaster Chu Shong Tin — Nima's Wing Chun teacher in Hong Kong, trained in traditional methods and taught in his living room. Grandmaster Jim Fung — Grandmaster Chu's student, who taught Wing Chun to thousands of students across Australia, under whom Nima began training at age 14. (written with help from Claude.ai) --- Hello
Hello, Craig here. This isn't a regular Movers Mindset episode — it's just me for a quick check-in, and a few invitations you might find interesting. First up, I'm introducing a way to support Movers Mindset through voluntary patronage. The podcast has always been freely available, and it always will be. But if you'd like to help sustain the work, I'd appreciate if you'd consider becoming a patron. Take a look at https://moversmindset.com/ I've recently started publishing field notes based on the podcast episodes. They continue beyond the podcast conversations into deeper explorations. They're not summaries or show notes. They're standalone pieces that pick up a thread from a conversation and follow it into new territory. Every conversation leaves me with threads I want to explore — ideas that deserve more attention, questions that linger, insights worth developing. The field notes let me follow those threads. Back in 2024 I needed to slow down for health reasons. Getting back to working on Movers Mindset has been energizing — it's a part of my life that brings me joy and connection, and I'm grateful to be able to keep at it. If you're not sure where to start in the nearly 200 episodes, send me an email — craig@constantine.name. Tell me an episode you loved, or a topic you'd like to hear about, and I'll point you to an episode or two you'll enjoy. And if you'd like to stay connected, join our email list at https://moversmindset.com/ for weekly updates — new episodes and archive highlights delivered to your inbox. Thank you for being a part of this community. Whether you've been here for years or you just found the show, I appreciate your time and attention — and I don't take it for granted. Thanks for listening :) ɕ --- Hello
Hello, Craig here. This isn't a regular Movers Mindset episode — it's just me for a quick check-in, and a few invitations you might find interesting. First up, I've launched something new called Pause. It's a weekly publication for movement professionals and anyone passionate about mindful movement. Each issue has a short reflection, a thought-provoking question, and a quote. You can read the whole thing right in your email without clicking anywhere. It's also available on the web and via a private podcast feed. You can learn more at https://moversmindset.com/pause. I've recently recorded several new Movers Mindset episodes, and I'm reaching out to more guests. I can't promise a set schedule yet, but I'm optimistic about sharing more conversations soon. On a more personal note, in 2024 I faced significant health challenges, and that's still an ongoing journey. Getting back to Movers Mindset has been energizing. It's a part of my life that brings me joy and connection, and I'm grateful to be able to keep at it. If you're not sure where to start in the nearly 200 episodes of Movers Mindset, send me an email, craig@constantine.name Tell me an episode you loved, or a topic you'd like to hear about, and I'll point you to an episode or two you'll enjoy. If you'd like to help keep the show going, you can support me through https://ko-fi.com/craigconstantine/. Every contribution helps cover production costs and makes it easier to bring these conversations to you. Thanks for listening, and for being part of this community. Whether you've been here for years or you just found the show, I appreciate your time and attention, and I don't take it for granted. Still reading? Then I'm guessing you're curious about what goes into the show. There's a lot that happens behind the scenes, with plenty of moving parts, and I'm always open to a little help. You're welcome to simply ask me about how I do what I do, or I invite you to pitch in on some part that interests you. Either way, drop me an email and let's see where our conversation takes us. ɕ
What new formats and practices best transmit Art du Déplacement's culture—beyond technique—so practitioners can reflect, connect, and grow together? Art du Déplacement's culture is deepened through «partage», reflective practice formats, and distinctive training like vision work and night missions. "Still, I had the fear, but I knew where I was, where I was going, [and] how— I knew myself better, basically. So this very strong experience with my friends, and this strong experience of failure— That was really an in between moment for me. […]There is before that training session at the «Dame du Lac» experiencing all this. And then there is me discovering more about my inner self and being very different in the way I approach fear." ~ Stany Foucher (1:33:00) The discussion frames Art du Déplacement as a living culture rather than simply a set of techniques. Stany's recently published, French-language book is highlighted as a deliberate choice, made with the awareness that language shapes who can engage with the ideas. (Craig and Stany hope that an English translation can eventually be created which captures the subtlety and depth of the material.) The strengths of books—slower pacing and deeper digestion—are compared to the reach and immediacy of video. This leads to exploring audio as a practice medium, with the idea of podcast-led movement sessions modeled on audio yoga classes. The conversation also touches on the value of building shared reference points across the community, so practitioners in different places can connect through common experiences. Practice design is a recurring theme. The Movers Mindset Pause project is discussed as a way to help practitioners form a cycle from discovery to reflection to change. Coaching is discussed as more than sets and repetitions, incorporating environment, questioning, and reframing experiences. Public-space QM is described as a way to normalize human movement in busy urban settings, reducing self-consciousness and building autonomy. The pair note the importance of training “vision” as a standalone capacity, distinct from fear management or technical skill. "Maybe one thing that I'm trying to focus on sometimes is this vision element of the discipline. Vision is really a topic by itself. If you just try to be in an analyzing mode, you know, trying to analyze the environment and be— not measuring, but just feeling— not for the sake of techniques, but just vision for vision. Maybe new things can arise." ~ Stany Foucher (58:00) They describe silent, “night missions” where participants select a distant, barely visible endpoint and navigate to it without touching the ground, focusing on presence, creative pathfinding, and trajectory rather than named techniques. Other modalities—lifting, carrying, climbing, and playing on varied terrain—are folded into practice to broaden capacity. Social aspects like shared meals, walks, and storytelling are recognized as essential for transmitting culture, complementing formal training. "But something that I really get, also from those years of training, and maybe you don't see it is, all the questioning behind it. I cannot think of a training that would not end with a question— [an] open question from—especially from Jann [Hnautra]—just reflecting on what you did. Why were you in that state of mind when we're doing this movement? Why did you want to stop when you were doing the QM? Lots of questions and reflecting on what you did. I think this is an important piece of the training." ~ Stany Foucher (28:00) Personal philosophy surfaces through parenting analogies—providing environments where children retain innate movement abilities—and a formative story of a major failure that marked a clear “before and after” in approaching fear. The conversation closes with reflections on building community connection despite geographic distance, testing new formats for sharing practice, and maintaining a loop where ideas, movement, and reflection continually reinforce each other. Takeaways Language shapes reach — Choosing French vs. English determines who can read, hear, and benefit. Books slow the pace — A book supports digestion of concepts that video often rushes past. Podcast as training — Audio sessions can guide live movement for listeners who learn by hearing. Build a reflection loop — Journaling and the Pause practice embed discovery to reflection to efficacy. Coaching beyond technique — The value includes questions, environment, and pointing in the right direction. Normalize movement in public — Holding QM sessions in busy spaces reduces self-consciousness and increases autonomy. Train vision explicitly — Treat “vision” as its own topic, not only fear or technique. Use night missions — Silent, goal-directed traversals cultivate presence and creative pathfinding. Mix natural modalities — Lifting, carrying, climbing, and terrain play (rocks, slopes) broaden practice. «Partage» matters — Sharing stories, meals, and walks transmits culture that classes alone can't. Parenting reframes coaching — Provide safe environments so kids don't lose what they already have. Failure as inflection point — A hard setback created a clear “before/after” in approach to fear. Resources https://wiseflow.fr/ — Stany Foucher's website for his book, podcast, and more. Art du Déplacement: Au delà de saut — French-language book discussed as framing the culture beyond movement; available as EPUB globally and in print within Europe. Wise Flow — Stany's French-language podcast. craigconstantine.com — Craig's personal web site with links to everything he does. Movers Mindset's Pause — The new Pause publication is a weekly email publication designed for movement professionals—coaches, teachers, gym owners, and practitioners—who want to slow down and reconnect with their deeper why. Stany Boulifard Mallet: Art du Déplacement, the Yamakasi, and motivation — Stany's first appearance, back in 2018, on the Movers Mindset podcast. Art du Déplacement (ADD) — Information about Art du Déplacement in general. Parkour & Art du déplacement: Lessons in practical wisdom – Leçons de sagesse pratique — Vincent Thibault's 2015 book discussed in this podcast. The book contains both the French and English text. Don't confuse it with the similarly named, but completely different book, “Parkour and the Art du déplacement: Strength, Dignity, Community”, published in 2014. There is also a second edition, which is French-language only. Out on the Wire — Book by Jessica Abel recommended by Craig as a book about podcasting, presented as a graphic-novel-style work interviewing leading creators. Meditations — Book by Marcus Aurelius (translated by Gregory Hayes) mentioned by Craig as his most-read book. Quadrupedal Movement (QM) — A practice and movement pattern emphasized in this episode and in Art du Déplacement generally. Communication with Vincent Thibault — Vincent Thibault's episode on Movers Mindset. Move NYC — Public event in New York City mentioned by Craig in reference to normalizing human movement in busy spaces. Joan of Arc Garden, in Quebec City — Location and statue mentioned by Craig as a setting for personal reflection. (Written with help from Chat-GPT.) ɕ --- Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
https://littleboxofquotes.com/ — Each day's quote is available as a podcast and by email from my Little Box of Quotes. A long time ago I began collecting inspirational quotes and aphorisms. I kept them on the first version of my web site, where they were displayed randomly. But as time went on, I realized I wanted them where I would see them. Eventually I copied the fledgeling collection onto 3×5 cards and put them in a small box. As I find new ones, I add cards. Today, there are more than 1,500 quotes and the collection continues to grow. Hello
How can older adults reclaim movement as a joyful, empowering part of life despite pervasive cultural narratives about aging? Letting go of perfectionism opens the door to playfulness and self-compassion. "If I can be more compassionate toward myself, I can let go of this addiction to competence and just let myself try, and suck. So yeah, I have come to embrace the idea that if a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly and playfully." ~ David Wilson (48:45) This conversation with David Wilson explores how movement intersects with aging, self-perception, and cultural narratives. David begins by addressing how deeply internalized ageist beliefs affect people's willingness to move, take up space, and try new things. The discussion challenges the idea that aging necessitates physical decline, emphasizing instead that variety in movement and awareness of personal stories can lead to growth and transformation at any age. David also critiques societal pressures that promote fear-based motivation, and he encourages a shift toward framing movement as a present-moment gift. The conversation moves through practical barriers and misconceptions that keep people inactive, such as rigid goals, perfectionism, and the belief that certain types of exercise are required. It emphasizes meeting oneself where one is, using personal values rather than fixed goals as guides. The importance of self-compassion, playfulness, and the willingness to "do things badly" is highlighted as a more sustainable path toward movement. There's also a critique of mainstream fitness messaging, which often excludes older populations by failing to address their actual lived experiences. Takeaways Internalized ageism — Movement hesitancy is often rooted in lifelong exposure to ageist narratives absorbed from a very young age. Misconceptions about aging — Many decline-related assumptions are not due to age itself but to reduced movement and lifestyle limitations. Curiosity over goals — Letting go of rigid, timeline-based goals makes space for exploration and deeper engagement with movement. Compassionate self-awareness — Bringing compassion into one's personal practice enables growth without harsh self-judgment. Playfulness as practice — Play offers a route to joy and learning, especially valuable when countering addiction to competence. Movement generalism — A broad, varied movement practice supports better adaptability and long-term capability. Fear-based fitness culture — Much mainstream messaging about aging and exercise motivates through fear instead of empowerment. Efficiency of the body — The body conserves resources by shedding unused capabilities, so maintaining movement variety is crucial. Accessible movement — Movement does not require equipment, special clothing, or gym memberships—it can be integrated into daily life. Time as a barrier — A perceived lack of time is the most common excuse for not moving, yet even minutes of activity show measurable benefits. Specificity of training — Effective physical preparation must match the demands of real environments rather than generic or repetitive exercise. Gratitude for the body — Pausing to appreciate the body's enduring support helps reframe limitations and fosters a more engaged relationship with movement. Imagination of aging — How one envisions growing older strongly influences present decisions about health and movement. Practice as identity — How we treat ourselves in movement mirrors how we show up in the world and in relationships. Resources OldsCoolMoves on Instagram OldsCoolMoves website — David Wilson's web site offering online courses and information. Five Minute Movement — A series of short guided sequences emphasizing movement variety. Ageism Unmasked — Tracy Gendron's book exploring the deep roots and effects of ageism. This Chair Rocks — Ashton Applewhite's book offering another perspective on ageism and cultural narratives about aging. Road Scholar — A nonprofit focused on travel and education for older adults. (Written with help from Chat-GPT.) --- Hello
What makes parkour jam spaces unique, and how do they shape the experience of movement, community, and accessibility? A church, a jam space, and a parkour gym—what do they have in common, and why does it matter? "The empowerment, and the kind of liberation to not care what other people think, does have a limit for some folk, I guess. I love it. I think for me, it's been great and really powerful. I really like not caring anymore about being bad at stuff in particular— that's so freeing." ~ Nina Ballantyne (14:00) The conversation explores the concept of parkour jam spaces, emphasizing how they lack defined boundaries, making them more accessible in theory but sometimes intimidating in practice. The discussion touches on the contrast between structured athletic environments and the open, fluid nature of parkour, where new participants must navigate unspoken social norms rather than physical barriers. The conversation also highlights the paradox of accessibility—while jam spaces remove formal entry requirements, social and cultural factors can still create obstacles, especially for marginalized individuals. The discussion transitions into broader themes of public space, inclusivity, and the intersection of parkour with community projects. A significant portion focuses on an initiative to purchase a historic church in Edinburgh and transform it into a community space. The conversation reflects on how physical spaces carry different meanings based on personal and cultural perspectives. The comparison between parkour jam spaces and community-driven spaces like the church highlights the broader theme of reclaiming and redefining public areas for collective benefit. Takeaways Jam spaces and accessibility — The absence of a physical boundary in a jam space doesn't mean it's truly open to everyone, as social and psychological barriers still exist. The role of unstructured environments — Unlike traditional sports with defined spaces and rules, parkour operates in public spaces, leading to unique challenges in inclusivity and belonging. Marginalized groups in public spaces — Individuals who are already scrutinized in society, whether due to gender, race, or body type, may experience additional barriers when engaging in parkour. The impact of early experiences — Many practitioners come into parkour without formal athletic backgrounds, which shapes their approach to movement and learning. Cultural norms within parkour — Different communities have their own customs, such as specific greetings or approaches to training, which can be both welcoming and exclusionary. Reclaiming public space — Parkour's ability to redefine urban spaces extends beyond movement, influencing broader discussions about who has access to and control over public areas. Indoor vs. outdoor training — While some practitioners prefer the spontaneity of outdoor training, indoor spaces provide a structured environment that can be more accessible to beginners or marginalized groups. The intersection of parkour and community work — The discussion about repurposing a church into a community space parallels parkour's ethos of adapting and reclaiming environments. The perception of churches as public spaces — Depending on cultural background, a church can be seen as either a welcoming community hub or an exclusive, imposing institution. The role of storytelling in community building — Sharing experiences and narratives within parkour fosters a sense of shared culture and belonging. The importance of understanding different motivations — Some practitioners seek challenge, while others prioritize playfulness, relaxation, or self-expression. The limits of parkour's inclusivity — While parkour prides itself on being an open and adaptable discipline, social realities can still make participation difficult for some individuals. Resources Access Parkour — A parkour organization in Scotland that provides training opportunities and works on community-focused projects. Leith St Andrews Trust — The charitable organization working to purchase and repurpose a church in Edinburgh as a community space. Coach Europe — A parkour coaching conference that brings together practitioners to discuss teaching methodologies and movement philosophy. Richard Marshall — A parkour practitioner and speaker who discusses the importance of play in movement training. (Written with help from Chat-GPT.) --- Hello
What makes a great movement coach, and how do they balance structure, intuition, and individual learning styles to help students progress? Teaching movement is as much about reading people as it is about teaching physical skills. "You have to wait— you just have to wait and see. It's not always the right time to give feedback." ~ Cristina Latici (15:22) The conversation explores the nuances of movement coaching, particularly in the context of parkour and dance. The discussion highlights the importance of understanding each student's background and learning style, emphasizing observation over immediate correction. Cristina describes her approach, which involves assessing a student's experience, allowing them space to explore, and offering small, precise adjustments when necessary. She reflects on the parallels between her parkour coaching and her past as a dancer, noting how both disciplines require a deep awareness of movement and the ability to convey complex physical concepts to others. "[Yoda and Luke] are having a conversation and Luke's bitching, as usual. And Yoda says something to the effect of, "we are what they grow beyond." And the point that's being made is, if you're a coach and you don't make students who are better than you, you're not a good coach." ~ Craig Constantine (22:04) Another key theme is the role of community in movement practice. Cristina discusses how the group dynamic influences training, particularly when working with long-term students versus new participants. She also highlights the challenges of coaching adults versus children, explaining how her background in special education informs her patience and adaptability in coaching. The conversation touches on the idea of "touch" as an intuitive sense developed through movement practice, illustrating how familiarity with movement can enhance both safety and creativity. Takeaways Reading the student — A good coach observes and learns about each student's background before offering guidance. Holding back feedback — Immediate corrections aren't always beneficial; sometimes students need space to explore movement on their own. The role of community — A strong training group can create a supportive and engaging environment that extends beyond just learning new skills. Differences in coaching adults vs. children — Adult students can be given more freedom, while children require more structured guidance. Intuition in movement — Over time, practitioners develop an unconscious sense of movement that helps them adapt in unexpected situations. Bringing past experience into coaching — Skills from other disciplines, like dance, can influence and enhance movement coaching. Frameworks for structuring sessions — Having a strong guiding structure helps coaches tailor sessions to different groups and needs. Personal growth through coaching — Teaching movement involves constant learning and adaptation, even for experienced coaches. Adapting to different skill levels — Coaches must balance providing challenges with ensuring students feel comfortable and capable. Flow and connection between movements — The ability to link movements seamlessly is a key part of high-level physical practice. Resources The Movement Creative — The parkour organization where Cristina coaches, offering outdoor movement training in New York City. Gerlev Parkour Gathering — A well-known parkour event at Gerlev Idrætshøjskole Cristina mentions as a valuable training community. Yamakasi — The original founders of parkour, mentioned in relation to training approaches. (Written with help from Chat-GPT.) --- Hello
How are your values guiding your voice, schedule, and future plans for your show? The holiday season is upon us, and that makes this the final 2024 episode of The Podcaster's Guide to the Visible Voice! Throughout the year, Mary fields tons of questions about all things recording, speaking, and producing. So, here's a round-up of some of the impossible-to-Google questions most podcast creators ask at some point. From embracing the volume of your voice to easy-to-implement recording hacks for guest episodes, wrap up your year and feel empowered to launch or continue your show in 2025 with these practical tips from a seasoned podcast strategist and voice coach. Get inspired for your upcoming podcast season: How to reframe the “professional” voice in podcasting Consider capacity: taking breaks as a solo creator The future expectations of adding video Easy tips to take your recording process to the next level Listen to this year's guest episodes: Accessibility in Podcasting for Hard-of-Hearing Listeners with Kellina Powell, Episode 88: https://www.organizedsound.ca/accessibility-in-podcasting-for-hard-of-hearing-listeners-with-kellina-powell-episode-88/ Warm Up to a Healthier, More Confident Voice with Nic Redman, Episode 86: https://www.organizedsound.ca/warm-up-to-a-healthier-more-confident-voice-with-nic-redman-episode-86/ Simplify Your Workflow to Keep Your Podcasting Passion Alive with Craig Constantine, Episode 84: https://www.organizedsound.ca/simplify-your-workflow-to-keep-your-podcasting-passion-alive-with-craig-constantine-episode-84/ Start a Ripple Effect of Continuous Learning with Beth Cougler Blom, Episode 81: https://www.organizedsound.ca/start-a-ripple-effect-of-continuous-learning-with-beth-cougler-blom-episode-81/ Making Accessibility Possible in Podcasting with Joel McKinnon, Episode 79: https://www.organizedsound.ca/making-accessibility-possible-in-podcasting-with-joel-mckinnon-episode-79/ Why We Need To Highlight Our Humanity In Podcasting with Erin Moon, Episode 77: https://www.organizedsound.ca/why-we-need-to-highlight-our-humanity-in-podcasting-with-erin-moon-episode-77/ Writing For Your Podcast with Shannon Kirk, Episode 75: https://www.organizedsound.ca/writing-for-your-podcast-with-shannon-kirk-episode-75/ Crafting a Consistent Brand Story with Brigitte Bojkowszky, Episode 73: https://www.organizedsound.ca/crafting-a-consistent-brand-story-with-brigitte-bojkowszky-episode-73/ Voice Health: Treat Your Podcasting Instrument With Care, Episode 85: https://www.organizedsound.ca/voice-health-treat-your-podcasting-instrument-with-care-episode-85/ Organic Discovery for Podcasts, Episode 67: https://www.organizedsound.ca/organic-discovery-for-podcasts-episode-67/ Learn more about Spotify for Creators: https://creators.spotify.com/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Transcript with Audio Description: [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET'S GO” BEGINS] MARY: Over the course of the year, I get plenty of podcasting and audio or voice related questions, as you could guess from the work that I do. And like we've talked about on the podcast before, no question is a dumb question. Podcasting questions come up all the time. Whether they might be a bit more foundational, like, what mic do you buy? How do you record online, how do you get the best sound? Those are more technical questions, but for this episode I wanted to go beyond that, because if you can google it, does it really make for an interesting or exciting podcast episode? Probably not. So I wanted to get under those almost superficial layers. So as we wrap up the year, I'm going to answer three very common questions that I get a lot. And as always, touch upon your podcasting values as we close out this year. This is episode number 89, the last episode for 2024, on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. > MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.
How can you make your podcast more accessible to people who are deaf and hard of hearing? It goes without saying that we don't know what we don't know. When it comes to how people with auditory differences—such as those who are deaf and hard of hearing—interact with our podcasts, the only way to learn how to do better and make those episodes more accessible is to ask. And that's exactly what this episode does. Kellina Powell is an author and speaker who helps deaf and hard-of-hearing women express themselves with confidence in a hearing world. Tuck in your earbuds and get ready to listen and learn as Mary and Kellina discuss the nuances of engaging with podcasts as a hard-of-hearing listener. How big a role does video play? Is all the effort we put into creating transcripts paying off? Kellina weighs in with helpful transparency from first-hand experience about the accessibility questions you've always wanted to ask. Learn from Kellina's unique perspective of the audible world: How your microphone affects sounds picked up during recording The difference in how hearing and hard-of-hearing people filter ambient noise How we can make our transcripts more accessible to those who need them How to respectfully ask questions about accessibility Links worth mentioning from the episode: Episode 84 “Simplify Your Workflow to Keep Your Podcasting Passion Alive with Craig Constantine” - https://www.organizedsound.ca/simplify-your-workflow-to-keep-your-podcasting-passion-alive-with-craig-constantine-episode-84/ Engage with Kellina: Buy Kellina's book, “Everyday I Am Just Deaf” - https://bookshop.org/p/books/everyday-i-am-just-deaf-life-in-a-hearing-world-with-deaf-queen-boss-kellina-powell/18522433?ean=9781778112102 Connect with Kellina - https://www.kellinaempowerment.com/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Transcript with Audio Description: > MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.
What could doing less look like for your podcast? Life is chaos these days. The hours often seem to fill up instantly with all the things on your plate, so don't feel bad if publishing podcast episodes start to slide to the bottom of your to-do list. Stumbling on the podcasting flow is totally normal—and totally fixable. The good news is that you can cut back on your workload and still release an impactful, exciting show. Curbing the number of hours you spend prepping, recording, editing, publishing, and promoting doesn't have to result in lower-quality episodes. By circling back to your original goals and finding ways to trim, rearrange, and even cut tasks that don't serve you, a process emerges that keeps you excited to create but not bogged down for hours and hours you just don't have. Yes, you have the potential to balance more rest and a meaningful show: How to check in on your definition of success Why you're getting better with every show, even if you didn't notice How to go out with heart if you decide to take a break Links worth mentioning from the episode: Episode 84, “Simplify Your Workflow to Keep Your Podcasting Passion Alive with Craig Constantine” - https://www.organizedsound.ca/simplify-your-workflow-to-keep-your-podcasting-passion-alive-with-craig-constantine-episode-84/ Episode 86, “Warm Up to a Healthier, More Confident Voice with Nic Redman” - https://www.organizedsound.ca/warm-up-to-a-healthier-more-confident-voice-with-nic-redman-episode-86/ Edison Research, Infinite Dial 2024 - https://www.edisonresearch.com/the-infinite-dial-2024/ Edison Research, Infinite Dial 2023 - https://www.edisonresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/The-Infinite-Dial-2023.pdf Connect with Mary! Leave a voicemail with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET'S GO” BEGINS] MARY: What's possible if you can do less on your podcast, but still achieve your goals. This very specific moment in time. We're looking at the very end of 2024. We're in early November. As I record this, I feel like the collective Western world is at a standstill, kind of waiting in the wings, in limbo to see what's going to drop next. Whether that is interest rates for housing, local or federal elections, cost of living, like grocery prices rising. And you know, there's still like the day to day stuff like managing your work and your podcast is part of that. So there's a lot happening in your world, and podcasting might not be at the top of your list of to do's. I know. And you know what? I'm here to say that it's okay if that's what you're thinking. Like, I got other things to do than to work on my podcast right now. And yeah, it's okay. And this is coming from someone who makes a living editing, managing and strategizing other people's podcasts. Podcasts is mainly what I do. So that's a scary thought for me that if I'm telling people to podcast less, is that going to be less for me as well? How do I survive that? But once you take a step back, less is more. As they say, doing less at this time in history can reap many benefits in the future. During your podcasting journey, just like any other parts of your life, it's always good to take a step back. Ask yourself, is there anything I can optimize or do less of, while still enjoying making my show? So let's get into how you can reassess your podcast, so you can still have fun creating a show that you love and have the work of making a podcast that meets your capacity. This is episode 87 on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. > [MUSIC ENDS]
How do conversation skills make your podcast process more enjoyable? Even if we're lucky enough to “do what we love,” work tends to have tedious aspects we don't like. Craig Constantine is a passion podcaster who, through the creation of thousands of episodes and rigorous reflection, has built a workflow that simplifies every step of his method, from prep to publication. A consummate conversationalist, Craig's overarching goal is to use understanding and compassion to have exciting exchanges that inspire listeners to dive directly into meaningful dialogues. In this episode, he gets into the nitty-gritty of the personal process that led him to discover his devotion to podcasting. Let Craig's passion inspire you to: Understand the difference between compassion and empathy in conversation Consider why you might not want to bring your prepared questions into the conversation Approach AI tools to create the perfect research assistant Simplify your process to make it more fun in the long run Links worth mentioning from the episode: Listen to Episode 51, Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning with Stephanie Fuccio - https://www.organizedsound.ca/honing-your-podcast-voice-though-second-language-learning-with-stephanie-fuccio-episode-51/ Engage with Craig: Keep on top of what Craig is up to - https://craigconstantine.com/current-projects/ Learn more about Craig's podcasting mission - https://openandcurious.org/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voicemail with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Transcript with Audio Description: CRAIG: Oh, no pressure. But thank you so much for inviting me. You get the prize for, of all the people who ever asked me to be on their show, you're the one who worked the hardest. So thank you so much for that. > MARY: A lot of logisticals behind the scene, and, you know, personal schedules and stuff. CRAIG: You actually hunted me down. You asked me through a service that we're both on, and I totally ghosted you, like a lot of people. And then you went and found my website and found my contact form and emailed me, and I'm like, wow, all right, this person is motivated. Yes, I want to be on the show. MARY: Well, what you do is intentional practice of conversations, and I think that is so unique because a lot of people find podcasting as like, oh, I can talk, I'll just plug a microphone in and start talking. > But what is intentional conversation? Why is it so important to you? CRAIG: Well, it's important to me because I found myself having more and more really great conversations, and that's like a whole separate story. And the more that I learned how to shut up and listen, which took me longer than it should have, the more I shut up and listened, the more I enjoyed the conversations and the more other people seemed to enjoy them. And then the people lurking around it enjoyed them too. So I started wondering, well, this isn't new. Humans have been doing this for a long time. And the more that I looked into it, now I have a books problem. You know, like, oh, here's a book from 150 years ago where somebody had all these things. And then I started having conversations that I was intentionally picking challenging guests. Not that the people were challenging, but, like, I have no knowledge about the topic we're going to have this conversation about, then, what would the skills be that I would need to have that be a good conversation when I'm totally floundering every second of the way? And I'm like an autodidact nerdy self learner. So it works well for me to be like, whoa, that sucked. That was horrible. And then I, like, write down, why did suck? What was wrong with it? How could I make it better? So I'm always preaching, like, you know, take notes and reflect, um, on your conversations, reflect on your life in general, and figure out, could I try something different next time? Or maybe that just, it happened. The bird flew into my head. That, that went weird. MARY: So then what do you need then to have a conversation? Because, you know, you were saying, I stopped talking, so I listened. But when people think of dialogue, well, you gotta talk. So how do you define that art of conversation? CRAIG: That's a really hard question. That's two different questions. How do I define the art of conversation? I'm gonna ignore how I define it. That's hard. I would say that you actually, you don't really have to talk for it to be a good conversation. And a lot of times when I'm having conversations with people, they are already aware of my, my issues of, like, wanting to dig into the meta. But even when I'm talking to people who don't know anything at all about me, they have an agenda and the real question is, when you're having a conversation with someone, is the other person aware of their own agenda? That's really, like, determines are we going to have a spectacular conversation. So Mary has ideas about where this conversation is supposed to go, ideas about what she wants the two of us to find here for the people who are listening. So that's like the biggest switch or choice. Like, when I'm having a conversation with someone, I'm, as best I can, always intentional about why I'm here, what I'm saying, why I'm saying, and I'm always curious, like, what is the other person thinking when they started talking? Were they just talking at me because they haven't seen me in a week, or are they really interested in something? So that's like, the first thing is like, are both people on the same page about what does it mean to have a good conversation? Some people, they just talk. I'm not saying that's bad. It's just, you know, that's a deli conversation that's going to be a little more shallow maybe, or a little different. MARY: Yeah. What about then in the role of podcasting? That being intentional piece, do you then prep your questions and you have your set questions, or do you allow that conversation to unfold? Because, like you said, everyone's got an agenda. CRAIG: Yes. It depends on what you mean by you. So if you mean, does Craig? I generally don't write down my questions anymore in the very, very beginning, which would be like 2017. So I was kind of late to the party, but when I started, yes, I used to be intentional about, the show was all about movement, I would be intentional about, I'm going to talk to this person because I have this question or this story I want to know. And I would write down my questions, and I would imagine, like if I wasn't thinking story arc, but I was kind of imagining a story arc about, I want to start here and then I want to go here, and I want to end over there if I can. So in the beginning, yes, I totally did that. And I got heavily involved in coaching podcasters. I've literally helped thousands of people as an assistant coach in courses. And that's a very good question for people to ask. So I say yes, in the beginning, write literally, preferably with a pencil, not like typing on your computer, because writing is different than typing. MARY: Yeah, CRAIG: Write your questions out in whatever your chicken scratch looks like. And then when you get to the recording, don't bring your notes. That's what I tell people, because the notes will distract you. I have a blank piece of paper on the table in front of me just in case I need to write something down. But when you go into those recordings as the host, all of that homework that you did, you're not going to forget it. It's going to be in the back of your head. So I would say yes, I used to write things down, and I do recommend that that's a great place to start. And then eventually I can hold the questions in my head for weeks. I think about someone, you know, and I listened to one of your episodes as I was preparing for this, and I had, oh, that's interesting. And I see the kinds of things that Mary is attracted to, and I feel like I have enough things in my head that I could, I don't want to, but we could probably flip this around, and I could probably, you know, be the host if I had to, but I don't want to. > That's, if you ask Craig, how Craig does it, how does everybody else do it? I don't think people write their questions down based on what I hear, When I hear people. MARY: Certain shows, there are some shows where it's like, bam, bam, bam, question, question. There was, like, no follow up. And I feel like, yeah, that's not good either. CRAIG: Right. That's the other problem. That's the opposite of prepared. MARY: Yeah, exactly. So then if you don't write your questions, it feels a lot to me, too, about when I worked in radio, we called this show prep. You know, it's all about being prepared and kind of knowing, like you said, that agenda. But having the follow up questions are the sparks in that conversation. So do you then, have, like, a toolbox of ways to guide a conversation, or like,... CRIAG: Oh yeah. MARY: …those. Oh yeah? Yeah. Okay, What is that? CRAIG: So there's a whole bunch of them, and rather than try to rattle them off, but just kind of, like, paint kind of what they are. MARY: Yeah. CRAIG: I have these ideas in mind about, I have a visual, I live, like, 2 hours from Manhattan, so I've been there a bunch of times. And if you ever walk down Broadway is, like, the biggest street, you can walk the whole length of the place. I imagine that in conversations, I'm walking with someone. So if I'm talking with someone and something strange happens, like, they ask me a question that I wasn't expecting, or they give me a strange answer, or they stopped, like, something weird happens. I'm imagining they, like, turned left into a side street. And my reaction needs to be not, wait, where are you going? Yeah, come back. My reaction needs to be, well, that's interesting. And follow, like, go with them. So I'm always trying to listen, air quoting is useless, you can't even see. I'm trying to listen not only to the words that they're saying, but the emotions that they're conveying. The emotions maybe they're trying to convey, which could be different, and try to imagine what is the experience that that person is having. So I'm always yammering about my mission is about creating better conversation to spread understanding and compassion and empathy is close, but I think empathy is a thing that might come later after understanding and compassion. And I feel like that is what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to deploy understanding and compassion as a tool. So in a conversation, when something weird happens, I'm thinking, do I understand? Like, that's my first thought is, do I really understand what just happened here? Like, maybe I don't understand and I should ask a question about what just happened here. So I have, like, lots of nerdy tools that I can bring up, but they all fit in that toolbox of my first, you know, do I understand? And then, am I being compassionate? Is this person freaking out because Craig's too energetic for them? Like, that happens to people. I understand. MARY: You mentioned empathy, and I feel like empathy is very similar to compassion. CRAIG: Yes. MARY: So how do you differentiate that? CRAIG: The way that I think of it is that empathy is about the feeling and compassion is about, I don't want to say doing something about it, but imagining what could be done, either generally or that I should be doing. So, empathy, if you're empathic and you can't distance yourself from that, that's really hard. That's people who, like, if the elections go bad and then they have, like, a nervous breakdown, I'm like, well, okay, I mean, you're feeling for those other people, but you really need to be able to control that. You have to have boundaries. You have to be able to protect yourself physically and emotionally. So, empathy, I think of as like, a feelers reaching out, sensitivity. And even I would say I'm pretty empathic. But even if you're really empathic, you really never know. You really can't say, I know what you're feeling, but that would be the goal, would be to feel outward. And then the compassion is, all right if I understand what's going on and I have some empathy for the person, the situation, or whatever we're talking about, then I might, if I'm a compassionate person, I might begin to imagine, is there something I could do about that? Could I help that person pick up whatever they dropped? Or could I donate money to this charity? Or could I help push this car out of a snowbank? That's the kind of thing that I do because I'm a large guy, you know. But if you didn't have empathy for the person who was stuck in the snowbank, you'd just be like, sucks to be you. And you'd walk right by, you know? So that's why when I wrote my mission. That's why I wrote compassion rather than empathy, because I feel like empathy, I don't want to say it's easier, but I felt like I already had enough empathy and I wanted to work on the compassion part. So very, the mission is very specific to me, of course. MARY: What about then, if you're in a conversation with someone and you don't agree? CRAIG: That depends on why I'm in the conversation. So I don't do journalistic interviews, just because it's not my cup of tea. But I've listened to a lot of journalists talk about their process. And, yeah, if you're a journalist and you're supposed to be getting facts or truth or you're trying to, you know, uncover a particular story, if people say something you disagree with, you need to push back, and you can push back nicely. You can ask clarifying questions. You can, you know, throw in juxtapose. I thought it was X. You can make jokes. There are ways to reveal questions without actually asking questions, which then lets the two of us stand in one place and point at the question over yonder without it getting very antagonistic. So there are things you can do to sort of direct, or in this case, redirect the conversation where you hope it would go. But that's not normally what I do because I'm not a journalist looking for something I don't have, like a target I'm aiming for, which kind of cuts both ways. Not having a target makes it harder because I think it would be easier if I knew where I was supposed to be going. So I don't often find myself in situations where, no, that's wrong, and I need to get you to tell me the other thing, so. MARY: Yeah, it's just a matter of, okay, yes, you've said what you've said now. Oh, I'm going to ask you this question to, to redirect. CRAIG: Yeah, ask more questions. Ask different questions. You were asking for about tools earlier. I sometimes talk about people's salience, the word salience. Humans are spectacular at noticing salience. I always say I'm afraid of three kinds of snakes, little snakes, big snakes, and any stick that looks anything at all like a snake. So snake fear and, like, falling. These are wired in. So there are other things, in conversations when you're listening to someone and you have an agenda and a story arc and a plan, and your brain suddenly goes, wait, what? And, like, it grabs these two things. The thing that you thought you were going to ask about and the thing that just lit you up, you have these two. Those things are related. I'm telling you, they are. That's what your brain just went, these are related. And you could just say, I wonder if these two things are related. You can just say that I do that and give people two, you know, like cheese and sneakers, and people will go, huh, that's a really good question. And then they'll think about it, and it's. Conversations are just people sharing ideas. There's no rules about my ideas have to follow logically and clearly from the last. It can be whatever two people want to share. So I really feel like people, like I've said, I've seen a lot of people do this. A lot of people take courses and say, how do I do interviews? They really undervalue this magical, I don't want to say device, because your brain's not a computer, but, like, this magical power that you have about identifying the things that light you up. That already works. So that's probably what your podcast is about. If you have a day job as a journalist, then you got to work a little harder, because now you have to. You have to aim those tools at a specific. My producer said, I must do X. MARY: Yes. CRAIG: Just a little harder. MARY: Yeah. Like you were saying we're not computers, right? This. This isn't an AI interview. CRAIG: Whew, good. MARY: You know, we are humans. We have emotion. We have feelings in our bodies that will then guide us to. Okay, what is that curiosity piece? What is that follow up question? CRAIG: Why am I upset all of a sudden? MARY: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, like, go with that feeling in your body and make sure that, you say it out loud. CRAIG: Yeah. A lot of times, just naming the thing goes a long way toward helping both parties understand, because sometimes people say something and, you know, somebody's triggered, and if you're really good at hiding that, well, that's not helping anybody. I mean, maybe if you're really triggered, you're trying to leave the space. Okay. But if it's the kind of thing that can be discussed, people can't read minds. I used to make that error a lot. I'm like, the other person opposite me is fuming. And I don't know. MARY: Yep. You can still hear it in their voice, even though you can't see them fuming. Like in the podcasting world. CRAIG: Yeah. Audio is magical. MARY: Yeah. Is magical that way, for sure. Let's move into a little bit with your podcasting journey. You have two active shows right now. Even one show is a lot, like, how. How do you manage all of this? CRAIG: Oh, I actually have. Well, if you want to count accurately, I have five active shows. MARY: You have five active, oh geeze. > CRAIG: Okay. All right. So how do I manage it? I have a pride problem. I love, you know, shiny things. I love to go after them. So the very first show that I created, I did not set out to make a podcast. I didn't say, I want to become a podcaster. This is the thing I want to do. I was literally having cool conversations in movement spaces. I would be out, like, in London running and jumping and playing with people at an event or doing a thing, and then I'm the kind of person who just walks up to someone and says, whoever they are, oh, hey, and we start talking. And then I turn around, there's people walking behind us because I'm talking to somebody semi-famous. And then they say, you should have recorded that. I would have listened to that. That's literally how I got into podcasting. Then I was like, well, I guess I should get some SM58 mics and a little interface. I just started basically pressing record on conversations that I was having. So I'm super lucky, super privileged that that happened to me. So that's how I started into it in 2017. And I did, like, 40 episodes with no clue what I was doing. Just like, you know, like, I don't know, let's try this. I had a friend who knew how to edit. I'm like, hey Brian, and he's like, use this mic and get this interface. And, you know, like, people just giving me tips. And I went about, like, 35 or 40 episodes along. And then I took a course. And I took the course not, and it's. It was a sofa, I call it sofa to 5K. I had a podcast course, and I already knew all that. I had 40 episodes out. MARY: Yeah. CRAIG: But I wanted to completely tear it apart, and I did. I took it all apart, and I, like, changed the descriptions, and the course made me think about things differently. It was one of the greatest things I ever did. And I met a whole bunch of people who were passionate about podcasting. That was the third time they ran the course. I went back as an assistant coach for 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11, for the runnings of the course, till they stopped the course. And along the way, I kept having more ideas. So the first show was, I was having conversations. People wanted to hear them. But the next show which came out, I was like, I wonder what would happen if you did a daily podcast. That was just me for 30 seconds reading a quote every day and didn't tell anybody. Just, like, stealth launched the thing. So I did 1,400 episodes of that show. And then while that show was going on, I started a podcasting community, and I started interviewing the other podcasters in the community and working my way up with, like, who should I talk to after I did a show? And that show was all about podcasting. So once I fell backwards into it and figured out how to do it, then it became this. Like, I imagine painters might just, oh, I got a paint. They run to the easel and they start painting. And, like, I do that with podcasting. I, like, I run to the microphone and I start making. Or I get people and I make a recording. So that's how I wound up with all these shows. It's really not any harder to have five shows. It's just, how many episodes are you doing? That's all that really matters. MARY: Yes. CRAIG: So, uh, you also, I haven't forgotten, you asked me, how do I do it? But if you want to follow up on that before I tell you how I do it. Or I can just tell you how I do it. MARY: Yeah, how do you do it? CRAIG: How do I do it? I'm a checklist and process nerd. So I have, for every one of the shows, I have a separate document that I maintain that tells me every detail. Like, this is the, you get an e nine minor guitar chord, goes here as the music bumper, and then the intro, and it has every step all the way through to emailing the guests at the end to say, thank you, your show is published. Here's the, you know, please share. And if you do ten of those, then you'll be editing your list. And then the list gets a little more detailed. And eventually, all of the things that used to make me get stuck, I don't want to do the editing. I'm, I don't like editing. Oh, I don't want to do the show notes. All these things that I get stuck on. I just kept making it simpler. What's the simplest thing that could possibly work? And that's what I, and I broke it down to more and more steps until, when I look at the checklist, I have an episode that you go out sometime this week, and the next checkbox is so easy. I'm like, you know, I could totally do that, that I could do that. And that's. That was how I broke it down, was to just make it simple enough that I could find a simple next step for whatever was going on. And then the checklist helped me remember. So if I'm not doing anything for three weeks. When I come back. Oh, right, here's where I was. Here's how I start, here's how I finish. MARY: What's an example of making it simpler? What does that mean? CRAIG: So we were talking about AI before. I use ChatGPT to write the episode notes. Shhh. I say that at the bottom, I wrote, written with, actually, it's written with help from ChatGPT. MARY: Yes. I was just going to say, I like that you have it written down. CRAIG: I'm a computer nerd, but I'm not an AI. Like to me, I was like everybody else, a what? How do you work this? I had no clue. But I have a checklist that helps me prompt the AI to give me what I want. So just like little nuances of sentences, like I'm resisting urge to open it up and read them, but it's like these really detailed, like, I want, say, I want one sentence to be the hook sentence for the thing that might be like 120 word paragraph that I've slowly fiddled with and kept in a document. So now when I learn what the hook sense, that it's like copy, paste, and it actually says, write me five variations of a sentence and then it tells it what to do and then it writes me five sentences and I look at them and none of them are good enough. But somebody, once I forget where this comes from, somebody said, working with AI fixes the blank page problem, so you should totally use it for everything because it will do a terrible job and you will rush to fix it's work. And it gets me going every time. So like, I rush and I'm like, no, no, you cannot use the word delve. No, no, no, edit the sentence, right? And then I edit my instructions and I say, you may not use the word delve. Put that in the instructions. So now when I have to write episode notes for like, say, a 15 minute conversation, I'm like, I can do that in 3 minutes. Watch this. > And I'm all done, you know, copy and paste and, and I have to edit, you know, like everybody has their personal writing style. I don't bother to try and make it do my style. I just edit the thing. I look at the paragraph and I go, hey, I don't like this part. Edit it. And then at the bottom I just write, written with help from ChatGPT. I tell everybody who asks, like podcasters. It's like having the greatest research assistant. This person is tireless. They have infinite patience. No matter how many dumb questions I ask, they're just like, here's your answer. You can, like, just ghost them for two weeks, come back, they pick up right where you left off without a single. As long as you realize it's really more about, I think of it like the first stage on the rocket launch. Get me moving, get me off the ground here so I can get a feel for what this thing is supposed to be. And that's what I use it for. MARY: What about not AI? What can you make simpler? That has nothing to do with AI, because that's what everybody's talking about these days. CRAIG: I stopped editing my shows. How about that one? If you've listened to, so the one show is called Movers Mindset is 170 episodes. I think Podtalk is at 150 or something like that. And basically the last hundred plus maybe 150 episodes on those two shows that I've released. I don't edit the audio. Now, full disclosure, I'm actually hard of hearing. I have hearing aids and crappy hearings. I'm a terrible audio editor to begin with, but I also can't afford to pay ninety cents a minute to edit all this stuff. So I went, well, what if I had a conversation that was so good, there wasn't anything that had to be cut out? How would you do that? Yes, and then work on that for 300 conversations. I've done about 500 recorded conversations for my shows, for other shows, not counting my guesting appearances. And every time I do them, I listen back and I'm like, why did I say that? Why didn't I shut up? > Because a lot of times the guest is about to say the great thing, and I'm still like, wait, you got to hear me. It's like, no, I'm the host. Shut up. So I've looked at, like, exactly what percentage of myself, when I'm the host, do I want in the audio? The answer is 25%. I want one quarter Craig and three quarters of the guest. And I occasionally drop that into Otter, which will give you a percentage speaker rating. And I make sure I'm at the target number that I want. And if I'm over or under, then I think about that for my next conversation. So, if you don't want to edit, could you just make the conversations better? Could you screen out people who are poor speakers unless you really need them? Like, there can be issues sometimes. I won't really want to guess because I want that representation. I really want this voice to be heard of. So I'm willing to live with thumbs and aahs and pauses. Just put it out raw you know, edit the levels, run the anti white noise background thing, 30 seconds. I mean, sometimes I'm, I have a 45 minutes conversation. It takes me five minutes to go from raw audio to mp3, final mix down, including the time it takes my Mac to make the mp3. It's, you know, because otherwise I wouldn't get it done if I didn't cut that corner. And there are other ones, like, I stopped doing introductions in the guest. Like, I never, when I'm recording, I never ask the guest to tell me who they are. Tell us, no, that's a disaster. And I don't. I don't read that in anymore for a while. I would open the show by saying, oh, my guest today is. I skipped all that. I got tired of recording intros and outros because I actually don't think people listen to them. So I skip them. My show opens, and I say, Hello, I'm Craig Constantine. There's like a sentence or two of what the show is. And then I asked the guest the first question, and we just have a conversation. There are other things about, oh, I can only do so much social media. So I have a WordPress plugin. I hit a button, and it just posts the three platforms. And then I'm like, good enough. Yep. I'm not making short form. I figured out how to do YouTube auto load from RSS. Good enough. MARY: Done. Yes. CRAIG: Moving on. I just looked at every single thing on the list that was in my head, and I went, this is stressing me out. Write it down. And then when I looked at the list written down, I identified, I can't do this. This is too much. I want to have hundreds, thousands of great conversations, and I don't want to do all these pieces. So delete pieces until I only want to do the part between record and stop and anything else that I absolutely have to, to make the show go out. MARY: And I think that's the difference, too, between people who are podcasting as a passion, like you do, or those who are like, I need to generate income, so I have to do X, Y, and Z, right? So it's like talking about that agenda piece. You were, you were saying at the very beginning, it's like, what is your goal for your podcast? So what would you define as success, then, for your podcast? CRAIG: Oh. Sometimes people can read each other's minds. I was listening to some of your shows, and that's a question you ask often because it's super important. And I'm like, this would be the spot where we need to talk about what Craig thinks success is. Success, in my opinion, for my shows is so for the two shows that have guests, if somebody listens to an episode and then they manage to email in real life, whatever, talk to the guest and they can skip over the parts that make conversations suck and go right to the good part. That's the definition of success for my show. So one of the shows is all about parkour and has french names and all these things, and there's people who run and jump and play all over the world, and everybody's pretty famous that I'm talking to. If they, somebody runs into that person and says, hey. And just goes right to the part of the conversation where both of them are enjoying it. Not, my guest, who's semi famous is like, oh, another fan. But where the fan comes up and says something and that person goes, oh, yeah, I'd love to talk about that. Like, that's my definition of success. People listen to the episodes that I did, and that enables them to have a better conversation with that person, even if it's just email or, you know, direct messaging or whatever. That may be a weird definition of success, but it turns out to be hard to do that. But it only means I have to have a certain kind of conversation. It doesn't mean that I have to advertise or, you know, kill myself in editing, I hope. > MARY: Yeah. CRAIG: That nobody listens. MARY: That's always the podcaster problem. CRAIG: Yeah. MARY: Nobody's listening. CRAIG: Well, there's only one problem and lots of problems. MARY: So what are some other problems that you have with podcasting? CRAIG: Uh, I spend too much time on it. Spend too much time on it. It's like I have an embarrassment of riches. So I understand. I'm not claiming this is weird, but I understand why people say they're nervous about reaching out to guests. I do not have that problem. I'm a computer nerd. I have something like 600 guests. I'm not exaggerating in queues. And I wrote software that mails me weekday mornings that suggests, you know, you mailed this person three weeks ago and they never got back to you, so you probably should message them again. Like, I wrote software to keep track of all that, so that I can just turn the crank. I do the fun part, which is, new email, Hey, Bob, would you like to be on the show? Or like that kind of thing? People mention a guest to me and I put it in a certain little config file, and I don't forget, two years later, it comes up. And then when I look at the notes, I know who recommended them. And maybe I, maybe they said, I'd really like to hear them talk about X. Like, I figured out a way to capture that stuff. You can do it with pieces of paper or excel spreadsheet, whatever you like. I think a lot of the struggle with guest outreach is in it's just an infinite number of threads. Like, it's complex, and it's always going to be complex. Don't put your friends into customer relationship management software. That doesn't make it better. So I just figured out, well, what would this have to be for me to enjoy doing this? So I have, the other problem is, if I turn that crank, if I start messaging people, I can do like five touches in a day in like ten minutes, because I just send an email, send a thing, go to whatever platform they're on. You do that for a few days, then people start showing up in your calendar. And like, that's the other side is make sure people can schedule themselves in using Calendly or something. If I'm not careful, all of a sudden it takes about two to three weeks. Three weeks out, all of a sudden it's like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I have all these podcast recordings scheduled. And even if I say one show per day, I can still wind up with two or three on one day because I have multiple shows. > That's my problem. I removed all of the sticky points, and I really wasn't paying attention to that means it's all going to go really fast. So I have to like, woah, slow down and try to keep it under control. MARY: Wow, you definitely have a very unique challenge. > CRAIG: Nice choice of words that you're going to say, that's very special. MARY: Earlier you were talking about, you got a lot of advice. You give advice about podcasting. So what was one advice that you got that did, you know, good. You're like, you know what, this is an advice that's out in the podcasting space, don't follow it. CRAIG: Oh, well, it's, uh, a similar version of that. Question is, what's something I disagree with that everybody else would be mad at me, and that's that you have to publish on a schedule. That's the piece of advice that I patently, I started on that at one point, I had a show that was all over the map, and I actually had hired someone to work on my team. I said, job one, get me on a schedule, which meant get the guest work and all that stuff. And I got on a schedule and I published every week for like a year and a half. I have completely given up, I don't care about, I don't care about schedules. So I said, like, mary, when was my last episode put out? MARY: I'd have to look, I don't know. CRAIG: Right? I mean, even if you went and listened, it's okay if you didn't. I don't think Craig is that interesting. But, even if somebody goes and listens to one of my shows, thing they look at is not the publication date. They go to the chronological list. They want to listen to the most recent one. Maybe they scroll back and listen to the trailer, or maybe they search for a word. So I think that the advice to get yourself on a schedule. Okay. If it's your first episode, yes. Get on a schedule for five or ten or something, seven. But have it in your mind that you're planning on getting off the schedule, or you're at least planning on slowing way down. Because weekly, if you're. If you're, like, a one man band, and if you're doing things by all by yourself, weekly is insane. MARY: Oh, yeah. CRAIG: Even if it's hostile, weekly is like the treadmill. So I, I think that's the advice that it's super useful if someone is literally starting out on the sofa to 5K journey of podcasting. Yes. You need to imagine how do I, because it teaches you to close the loop. If I start here and I got to do all these steps, and I got to be done by next week, because I got to do it all over again, and then you start to think, oh, can I do the guest outreach in parallel? So I was working multiple guests, could I work ahead? So I got one or two in the can I. It teaches you those things. But then once you learn those lessons, then let go of having to publish on a schedule is my advice that I think didn't serve me because I took the course and people said that, and I was at 40, and I was like, yeah, I already want to get off this. > MARY: Get off this, because it is a lot of work and a lot of pressure on yourself to make sure it goes out at a certain day and time. CRAIG: Yeah. And, like, your die hard listeners, I've had people talk about. We talk about feedback and hearing from your fans. I've had people come up to me at, like. Like, I bump into them in person, and they talk about the show, and I've had people say to me, I can't keep up. Like, sometimes they drop, like, three or four in one week, and people are like, what are you doing? I can't listen to all this. It's too much content. MARY: That is a lot! CRAIG: Well, it is, but from my side, it's not. And I just had. It was a 30, 40 minutes conversation. I had a blast. It was awesome. And then I blasted through the post production, right? Sometimes I'm done, and if I'm really flying, I can be done in 45 minutes. I hit stop. The guest hasn't even, like, finished with their. You know, and I'm like, I'm done. It's crazy. MARY: So wait, why not then? Wait. Like, okay, if you've got this back, not back log. Like, then why not schedule? CRAIG: Because then the next week, I did three more, and then the next week I did three. Was like, well, there's another scheduled to, you know, never. And I also. I felt bad sometimes. I don't know, there's something about it. Everybody says, you always love all of your children the most. And every one of them, when I'm done with them, I'm like, that's the best thing I've ever created that has to go out right now. It's part of my drive to make and do and create. And I feel like when I hit stop, I'm doing a disservice. I'm sitting on something I shouldn't be sitting on. And I have had some weird situations where I had some that I sat on for, like, ten months because I get nervous about that. Like, why isn't this done, well, because I can't get a transcript from the thing. I got stuck on details. So, I really just love. I don't know, I love the feeling of, wow, I had a great conversation, and now everybody else can hear it with as little time between those two statements as I can get. MARY: Okay then, I'm checking out the time. Like, I had scheduled a certain amount of time with you, but then it got me thinking, then, do you schedule, like, a certain amount of time, or do you just let this conversation go? Because, like, I think I can talk to you for hours, right? And I literally mean that, you know, people say that on shows, but, you know, there has to be an end. CRAIG: Oh, I guess this is like a whole nother show. Okay, so I will say, yeah, you got 60 seconds before the time you allotted. However, I do not have a hard stop. So you could, if you want to record a second shows worth of material, knock yourself out. Here's what I will say. People often ask if they're. If they're good podcasters, it occurs to them to ask, how do I have a good ending to my conversation? How do I have a good ending to my show, if I have a host and guest situation, and I always say, well, the first thing you can do is cross off anything that you know that won't work. So, if you want to have a good ending, do not stop when the show sucks. > Right? So the friction and this is good. You always want to feel this as a host when you're on your show. This is great. This is where we should stop when you feel that tension of, this is awesome because people are going to slap their headphones off and go, that was awesome. And they're going to be like, they're going to go talk to somebody about the show or they're going to share it or whatever. I mean, maybe don't stop right in the middle of an idea. But that part where we all want to go, wow, that was great. Now what do I ask? Oh, wait, there's more, Mary, let's talk about that. Don't do that. Just go, that was awesome. Thanks so much, Mary. It was a pleasure talking to you today. And hit stop. Hit stop when you're going is great, and you'll be good. Then there are a couple other little tips. Conversations go in, I call them saccades, not cicadas, the insect. Saccades, is a reference to how you move your eyes when you're reading. I don't know if people talk about cicadas in conversation, but, um, I'm doing it. There's a saccade to conversation. It's follow the bouncing ball, and it's about 20 minutes per hop on a conversation. MARY: I've heard about that. Yeah, yeah. CRAIG: And you might need to do people going, what? You might need to do a few hundred conversations to get out your metrics and look at the things. And what happens is, if you just let that bouncing ball go, you can't really stop at 30 if you're in the middle of a bounce and you can't really stop at the 20 minutes because that's the sucky part in the middle where you need to have a follow up question to get us back to the >. So that's another thing is to understand, like, as a host on your show, understand some of the dynamics of conversation. Have your, have your conceptual head only if you can manage it. Only half in the show, half out of the show, watching the clock, knowing what you wrote that you wanted to get to, that you haven't got to yet. So, you know, oh, I have to get this one more thing. The next bounce of the saccade is going to be this. If you can manage to stay out. That's hard. Then that lets you have some of that. You know, you can have your head. You like old gopher, you know, like you stand up, you look around a little bit. Okay, let's go back into the next 20 minutes. So that's the, those are the things that I think about when I'm trying to figure out where to stop. Really. Just don't stretch. You get to the end and it's awesome, and somebody says something profound, just say, that was awesome. MARY: That was awesome, Craig. CRAIG: But I did it on purpose. MARY: I know. CRAIG: But, like, it's tough to do that when you're ahead. When you're really as a host, if you're having an awesome conversation, you get completely lost. That's good tape. MARY: So, yeah, that is. But I always end my show with the same question, and I'm going to let you go. So my last question for you is, what are you excited about podcasting right now? CRAIG: I totally should have prepared for that because I heard that what am I excited about podcasting? Well, in case people couldn't tell, I'm not excited about anything. I'm really excited about more people are starting to want to talk to me about conversation, and that's great because that means that I'm either, well I'm going to say I'm not doing something offensive. At least it means that things aren't going badly pessimistic. So I'm really excited about having the chance. It's been happening more often to have conversations like this, where the whole thing is very meta about conversation. So that's really kind of makes me want to start another show. > I'm going to do more of this, but I'm not going there. So that's what I'm going to say. I'm really excited about and getting back, I was mentioning before I was sick, so I'm, like, on a pause at the moment. So I'm excited to get back to having more conversations, but it's really. I feel like I'm getting more interest in talking about talking. MARY: Yeah, I think that's what we need, because it's that human connection that we're all craving, you know? CRAIG: Oh, yeah. MARY: So thank you so much for this human connection with me and for the conversation. > CRAIG: My distinct pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. MARY: Thanks so much, Craig. I love the enthusiasm in his voice and for the work that he does. And, you know, during the conversation, he mentioned saccades and following the bouncing ball. I love that he brought up how conversations cycle through around 20 minutes, and we talked about this before, actually, in a previous episode with Steph Fuccio in number 51, we talked about Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning, and Steph had done similar research as well. She mentioned that same phenomenon around 20 minutes for a conversation. So if you want to revisit that episode number 51, the link is in the show notes. So after listening to this conversation, what advice would you take from Craig's podcasting journey for your own show? Now, like I said on the show in the beginning, his podcast is a passion project and his success is not going to be the same as your success. So we're not saying you need to follow what he is doing. Like the way how he doesn't schedule. Scheduling is important to some people because it provides them structure and to make sure they do things so that they go out. Craig's really great at finding out what works for him, so I hope this episode makes you think about what could potentially really work for you. It's his idea of making things simpler. That's what he found works for him. But what does that mean for you? Send me a voice note with your feedback at VisibleVoicePodcast.com. you'll find the purple button that says send voicemail. From there, click on that, send me your feedback, and let me know what would be simpler for your podcasting workflow. Or as always, you can email me as well VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com. On the next episode we're talking voice tips. How do we embrace our voice as a tool? We think of podcasting as an easy thing to do where you can plug in your microphone and just start talking, but it's not as easy as that. We'll explore more of your voice next time. > > >
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