The Leech Podcast

After reviewing their favorite elements of the humble leech (1:59), the guys select the season's leechiest scene (6:13), hand out some special awards (14:11), and choose the season's leechiest character (20:40). They conclude by considering sources of hirudotherapy in Season 1 (30:57) before selecting the official leechiest film of Season 1 (41:19).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:Rainier Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet [link]Robert Macfarlane, Mountains of the Mind [link]Credits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher Thomas

After a very personal Leech Anatomy 101 segment (2:01), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into There Will Be Blood's leechiest themes (6:42), scenes (14:59), and characters (27:00). To get some relief, the guys head to the shore for Leech on a Beach (34:52). They conclude by considering the film's medicinal qualities (39:48) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film's leechiness (43:55).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:Maltbie Babcock, Thoughts for Everyday Living [link]Credits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher Thomas 

After hearing about Zeek's journey into filmmaking (1:29), the guys learn more about the world of Prospect (7:51), Zeek's influences (9:52), and Prospect's production design (16:26). They dig into shooting one of Prospect's most memorable scenes (23:01) before Zeek shares the backstory of the enigmatic ‘man in pink' (a Leech-exclusive reveal!). Finally, they close the episode hearing about Zeek's leechiest movies (40:06).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on IGZeek's Leechiest Films:Aguirre, Wrath of God, directed by Werner HerzogSomewhere, directed by Sofia CoppolaParis, Texas, directed by Wim WendersBlue, directed by Krzysztof KieslowskiCredits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher Thomas

After considering the fate of leeches in outer space in Leech Anatomy 101 (1:57), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Propsect's leechiest themes (8:35), scenes (15:12), and characters (25:57). Following a brief Leech on a Beech respite (35:34), they conclude by considering the film's medicinal qualities (40:13) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film's leechiness (48:27).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:Victor Block, “Wallops Island Is Where the Monkeys and Leeches are Launched” [link]Marek Szcipanek, “Polish leeches could conquer space” [link]Willie James Jennings, After Whiteness [link]Credits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher Thomas

Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Zero Dark Thirty's leechiest themes (5:12), scenes (14:30), and characters (24:55). They conclude by considering the film's medicinal qualities (35:33) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film's leechiness (43:23).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:N. Annandale and Amin-ud-Din, “Note on the Occurrence of the Leech Limnatis nilotica in Seistan and the Afghan-Baluch Desert” [link]Mahmoud Bahmani, Zohre Eftekhari, Ava Mohsezadeghan, Freidon Ghotbian & Nafise Alighazi, “Leech (Limnatis nilotica) causing respiratory distress in a pregnant cow in Ilam province in Iran” [link]John Gast, “American progress” [link]Relief Organizations Working in Afghanistan:For listeners who would like to contribute to ongoing humanitarian efforts in Afghanistan, please consider supporting one of the organizations:International Assistance MissionInternational Rescue CommitteeMercy CorpsSave the ChildrenUNICEFCredits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher Thomas

After a mind-expanding Leech Anatomy 101 (2:30), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Midsommar's leechiest themes (8:51), scenes (16:44), and characters (27:30). To get some relief, the guys head to the film's sandy ancestral tree for their usual Leech on a Beach segment (37:08). They conclude by considering the film's medicinal qualities (40:03) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film's leechiness (47:58).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:Rose George, Nine Pints: A Journey Through the Money, Medicine, and Mysteries of Blood [link]Credits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher Thomas

After hearing about Cousin Max's journey into Film Studies, the guys dive into Children of Men's leechiest themes (10:01), characters (25:55), and scenes (31:01). After a brief Leech on a Beach respite (43:04), they consider the film's medicinal qualities (44:58) and give an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film's leechiness (52:02).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:Isaiah Berlin, “Message to the 21st Century” [link - subscription needed]David Foster Wallace, “This Is Water” [link]Max's Social Media: @max_inreallife on Twitter, max.inreallife on IGMax's Blee Blump and Fletcher series: [YouTube link], @BBAFMD on Twitter, moondetectives on IGCredits:Hosted by Evan CateEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher Thomas

After a cold, geographic Leech Anatomy 101 segment (2:29), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Fargo's leechiest themes (13:46), scenes (21:24), and characters (32:19). To get some relief, the guys head into another frosty Leech on a Beach segment (38:10). They conclude by considering the film's medicinal qualities (41:27) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film's leechiness (47:33).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:Leif Enger, “The Leech Trapper” [link]Thurston County, WA article on leeches [link]Dai Suzuki, et. al., “A Leech Capable of Surviving Exposure to Extremely Low Temperatures” [link]Credits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher Thomas

After learning more about Dr. Kvist's background (01:54), the guys dive into the leeching process (12:06), Dr. Kvist's current research (21:01), and the affects of climate change on leeches (29:33). Then they reflect on life lessons derived from leeches (33:23) and the ethics of leech farming (40:51) before hearing about Dr. Kvist's favorite leechy films (45:57). We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:Dr. Kvist's website [HERE]; Social Media: @sebastian_kvist on Twitter, @sebastian.kvist on IGRoyal Ontario Museum website [HERE]Credits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher Thomas

After another eye-opening Leech Anatomy 101 segment (2:39), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind's leechiest themes (11:29), scenes (16:37), and characters (23:04). To get some relief, the guys head into their second Leech on a Beach segment (33:32). They conclude by considering the film's medicinal qualities (36:15) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film's leechiness (43:26).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:“Leeches,” Australian Museum [link]Transcript:Evan  00:11Hey everyone. Welcome back to the leech podcast, the most visceral podcast. As always, the leech podcast is a show about movies that suck the life out of you, but also stick with you, and may even be good for you. I'm joined as always by my two favorite leechy gentlemen, Aaron Jones, and Banks Clark. Hey guys.Banks  00:32Hey HeyAaron  00:34Hey Hey HeyEvan  00:34It is great to be with you again. Listeners might remember the three of us used to teach together that we discovered our shared love of difficult movies that make your heart bleed. And of course, we used to teach together now we leech together. So it is great. Great to be together as always. We have a packed show for you all again today. This is I think we're halfway through our first season of the leech podcast, which is very exciting. Today we'll be talking about Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, a 2004 film starring Jim Carrey and Kate Winslet. We will dive into that as we go. We always also are looking to expand our pond. So to that end, if you like, communicate with us @leechpodcast on Twitter, and theleechpodcast on Instagram. Please send us your ideas, your thoughts, your feelings. We like all those things. And this week in particular, if there is a leechy novel, a book, a story…Aaron  01:43[Gasps]Evan  01:43… that is leechy for you, we would love to know what that novel is, because if there's enough “suction” on this idea, oh, we might need to have any tea book club. So @leechpodcast on Twitter, theleechpodcast on Instagram. Please send us your leechy novels, Jen. So other other other things that the listeners should chime in on,Aaron  02:06But don't send us leechy navels! Like if there's a leech on your belly, but...Evan  02:11… A leech in your navel actually should probably you should probably go talk to your doctor.Aaron  02:15…. Talk to your primary care physician.Banks  02:18That just makes me think of that one scene in The Matrix. The part where that thing goes right in...Aaron  02:23Oh, oh, that is the truly leechy naval scene of all, yes.Evan  02:28That scene has stuck with us. Okay, before we dive into this episode, Aaron, please teach us about leeches.Aaron  02:36“Teach us about leeches”. Yes. Well, this week's movie where we watched was a little more romantic. So I was wondering about that, you know, with your romantic partner, I was kind of looking each other in the eye. And I was wondering, could I look a leech in the eye. And I became curious about the eyes of leeches. I found this bit of information from the Australian museums kind of natural history museum in Sydney. And it is sort of deliciously vague in a way that I want to share with you. And these are about the sensory organs of leeches and I quote, sensory organs on the head and body surface enable it to detect changes in light intensity, temperature, and vibration. chemical receptors on the head provide a sense of smell and there may be, this is what gets me, there may be one or more pairs of eyes.Evan  03:36One or more?Aaron  03:39One or more pairs of eyes. The number of eyes and their arrangement can be of some use in identification. However to properly identify a leech, dissection is required. I was struck by that this time whether that some different kinds of leeches have one set of eyes. Some have none, apparently, and some have many. And I'd like to know more. Anyway, looking a leech in the eye may be difficult because probably all they can see of you is a shadow in the way of the sun.Evan  04:09Wow, that that feels apt for this...SunshineAaron  04:13Sunshine!Evan  04:14Wow, look, well, points. Anyone who makes a metaphor out of that bit of leech anatomy. Thank you, Aaron. So let's dive into this episode. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.  Banks, will you tell us what happened in this film?Banks  04:30Well, I will try. As always, quick spoiler warning. If you have not seen this movie, pause this episode and go watch it. There are some movies that you can hear about and then watch. And guess what you could do it here and you would be doing yourself a terrible disservice. The first time watching this film you will be transported in 1000 different directions and it is a delightful transportatio--and it's just worth have been carried along in that journey. So watch the movie if you haven't, then unpause this leech podcast and purse and then we can leech with you. So quick spoiler warning. And this is a movie that has multiple timelines, you know, these timelines converge, they diverge, and it's definitely it's …. you know, we just recently watched it, I'm still, like, late, which timeline was happening when, but it's, it's really remarkable how it all comes together. The movie starts we meet Joel Joel Barish. He's played by Jim Carrey, you know, sort of quiet character. And there's this really interesting use of voiceover, where we learned that this very sort of quiet, normal, somewhat boring gentleman all of a sudden is doing a very impulsive action, on been sort of surprised, and even to himself, and he ends up on a beach in Montauk, where he meets a woman and they all of a sudden have this unexpected chemistry and the woman is, in a clementine paid brilliantly by Kate Winslet. And through the sort of the course of their conversations, and everything, you realize there's some sort of interesting history, there's some things that make sense. And then all of a sudden viewers are transported to a different moment. Right, to a different time at which, actually, this relationship has been ongoing for some reason. And also that there's been a fight, and that the relationship ended. And so all of a sudden, the viewers made very terribly aware that there are multiple things going on at once. The histories don't align properly. And what we learn is that after this fight, Clementine, who is this, you know, opposed to you know, Joel, who's this, you know, very sort of boring, keeps himself more of a quiet gentleman, Clementine is, you know, she changes her hair color all the time, she's impulsive, she's vivacious, she's all over the place. And what she has done after the fight is actually go to this, it looks like a dentist's office, it's like the world's most mundane-looking thing for a sci-fi film. But it's like this futuristic technology that wipes up like a very specific traumatic memory from your brain, in a very specific way, and that she has had this done. And Joel learns this through some friends who shouldn't have been able to like to pass it along, but Joel learns. And then he is then realizing that he's in this different, like an area that he himself needs to have this done. And so then he goes and demands that this same office, you know, do this procedure on him because it is too painful for him to know that she has wiped him from her memory. And so, all of a sudden, we're caught in these timelines, that's also you know, where we started. There's the timeline of the history of him learning about it, but also we learn we're actually in the timeline of him actually undergoing the procedure as he sleeps.Aaron  08:23Mm-hmm.Banks  08:24And what we then learned is that through the course of him actually going to the procedure, he decides he does not want it. He decides that, actually, their relationship was so powerful was so meaningful, that in spite of all the bad things, he wants them to stop....but he's already asleep. They're already wiping his brain and it's hilarious. The technicians doing it are played by Mark Ruffalo and Kirsten Dunst. Mark Ruffalo plays Stan and Kirsten Dunst plays Mary, who are themselves are in a relationship, and themselves are like throwing like a party while they're doing it. We also recently then we also learned that Elijah Wood is playing this character named Patrick, who is stealing Jim Carrey's identity in order to be able to date Clementine. So Jim carries obviously, Joel's identity to steel to be able to date Clementine. Right. So we have all these crazy timelines happening at once you learned that the doctor in charge of this entire facility actually had a relationship with one of the technicians. So you have these love triangles. All of this is happening while Jim Carrey is asleep, trying to evade the very process. And the thing that is giving, you know, Joel and Clementine the ability to evade, right, this process of wiping the memory of the relationship, the very life of the relationship, what's keeping them and sort of the very vital breath of that alive is the fact that there is something about the relationship that allows them to want to do something different, do something impulsive, and that breaks the cycle and they're able to evade through memories and all these, you know, interesting psychological pathways, they're able to sort of thwart parts of the procedure. And in the end, interestingly, they fail...and the procedure succeeds. So it would seem. Because Jim Carrey wakes up the procedure, seemingly a success, and we are brought back to the very opening scene of the movie, where he is then, for some reason, this boring man impulsively does something almost like Clementine would, and they end up in Montauk. And these, you know, two individuals who had erased one another from one another's memory, insist upon meeting one another, again, in spite of themselves. And it ends on this hopeful but restrained hope or they found each other again. But will this repeat again? That's the movie.Evan  11:12Yes. Yes. Really? Well, put Thank you Banks. So we're going to move into the leechy. See, or sorry, leechy themes from this movie? And I think I'll just build off something you left us with there, Banks, which is this interplay… so my theme would be the interplay between their individual choices, and I don't know, fate, I guess. The theme is, can maybe another way to put is, can people change? Or are they always going to repeat patterns of behavior, patterns of relationship? If they can change? What is going to be the engine of that change? What actually drives it? And I do think this film has something to say about that. I'm going to put a pin on it, because I think we'll come back to it. But my theme is this interplay between fate and choice, especially through the prism of a relationship. Hmm.Banks  12:09Wow. And that's a really powerful theme to the film plays, right, you know, one of the plays right into what I'm thinking of, for a lot of the film. For me, one of the most powerful themes, is just an explanation of coping. How do people cope with difficulty, and this film is just just takes your right into people's coping mechanisms, at least for me in a way that like, is a little too relatable to be comfortable. Oh, gosh, I've done these. Evan  12:42Ooh, Ooh… That's real.Banks  12:43That's really, like, you know, for Jim Carrey, I relate to his character, so much I relate to Joel, because he's just this, you know, resorts to, to the same patterns to cope with the things that are just difficult in life. And he himself is at odds with his own state of being boring and doesn't know what to do with it. And is oddly attracted to this woman who is the opposite of that. And so it's about you know, well, some people cope by creating patterns, some people cope by being wildly different. And, you know, trying to do things in different ways. And, you know, there's this theory out there that, you know, Clementine, Caitlin's his character is like, has like Borderline Personality Disorder, I don't really think that's a really you don't need to psychologize it like that. She's just a really awesome, I think strong character, but definitely is coping with life in a different way. And then you also meet through all these other characters in the side, just different ways of dealing with difficulty. I think coping is just a huge part of this movie.Aaron  13:47Mm hmm. I mean, hmm, I have a lot of things in my mind. Some themes that stick out to me is one that I'll talk about for now has to do with memory. I'm thinking about the power of memory, and even even the sort of mirrors residue of memory. Now, after these two people have found the procedure done, there's a way in which memory sort of like persists beyond all active attempts to erase it. There's something like core and deep, and that in sort of goes beyond the mechanical, neurological parts of memory, down into the level of identity. And I'm just I'm thinking about all the ways it's like we are the finger. We like the fingerprints of our experiences and memories are so deep in us. The idea of erasing them becomes ridiculous, even at the level of the science fiction we're given at the lacuna, doctor's office.Evan  14:53Right. And I think what's I think what's so interesting there is that they do succeed in erasing her From his mind, but it's but they don't. They can't tracer from his body. His body remembers. And there's something like deeper than his mind that remembers her.Aaron  15:09Yeah,Banks  15:10Truly. If I'm not mistaken “The Residue of Memory,” to quote you know, maestro Aaron Jones over here. Isn't “The Residue of Memory,” the title of your very first jazz fusion album?Evan  15:28I know it was his second one. Oh, that's right. I believe compromised second draft.Banks  15:38Oh, that's right. You might remember from an earlier episode, he quoted it. It was the subterranean network that fuses the different buns of the sandwich. Oh, that was the parasite episode. That was his first episode.Evan  15:54Yes, yes.Aaron  15:55Spicey call back, sir. Spicy indeed.Evan  15:59Banks is there a scene that leeches on to you?Banks  16:05 It speaks to the to0 close for comfort. For me, it's it had there's this scene it's fairly early in the film and epitomizes almost the thorn in the side of Joel and clementines relationship. And it's it they're sitting down. And they're eating Chinese food.Aaron  16:32Oh, no  Banks  16:34It is the most painful scene. It's and this is leechy to me in the sense that like, I kind of want to forget it. Because I really can't forget it.Evan  16:45And because I've lived it, right.Banks  16:48Yeah. Like, I've been like “Daaang, I've been there, man.” But like, but like, I think we've all been in relationships where we felt this sense of being suffocated by monotony, the sense of something that was at one time supposed to be celebratory, has instead become like a performance of, you know, all the reasons why the relationship is not working and it's just boring. And they're just sitting there eating Chinese food, commenting on how the food that they've been ordering every week, the same day, is the exact same, and having nothing to talk about. And the silence is just so palpable that it will it just makes you kind of want to, I don't know, attach some leeches to you to suck it out of you. Because …. somebody say something interesting. Aaron  17:43Kind of want to run away screaming.  Banks  17:44For me it's the Chinese food eating scene. It's just, it's for me that's like, almost unwatchable. But like, in a powerful way, not like, bad but like, I have lived thatEvan  17:55We cannot speak into something very real, right?Aaron  17:58Yeah. I'm really gonna jump in here. I'm, I'm thinking of like, what are the different kinds of things that relationships can survive, and one is the site horrific level of monotony that we're describing. But the other thing that for me, the can relationships survive the full voicing of the truth, the full voicing of the truth and the leakiest scene for me, that just, I just brings me into agony, I feel awful, as I'm watching it, and listening to it, is the scene at the end where they have both received the recorded tapes of them sort of naming the things they despise most about the other person. And then, Clementine walks into Jim Carrey's apartment as he's listening to the tape where he told the doctor everything he despises about her now. All these like nasty, ugly things he thinks about her. And she makes him keep the tape running while she is there. And the discomfort is just like rising and rising and rising until I feel it in my body as I'm sitting there watching the film. He's talking about how she just uses sex to like, make people like her. And she's this like, shallow, foolish person. And she's listening to it. And he's listening to himself say it and horrified. And for me, there's the kind of weird hopefulness at the end of the movie is where they decide they're going to try and be close again, not only with this kind of remembered level of monotony, but with the full, like, difficult truth spoken. Oh, that's leechy for me. Oh, took something out of me!Evan  19:37That is an amazing, amazing sequence. I think I'm torn--I have two scenes. I think they… I think they actually sandwich the one you're talking about. The first one and I want to highlight just the visual storytelling that's going on in both of these scenes. This film was written by Charlie Kaufman Who is an amazing screenwriter, but this is the place where I think the director and the director of photography directors, Michel Gondry, I think they really shine. Because the first thing I'm thinking about is the final memory he has with Clem before, his mind is completely wiped of her. And it's actually the first night that they ever spent together, or that they met. And they were on Montauk. It's they met on the beach at a party, and they connect. And basically, she convinces him to go into this house that's owned by someone else, but no one's currently living there. It's dark. He feels really uncomfortable because you could tell he's a rule follower. He's, he doesn't like to, you know, transgress rules. She's going upstairs with alcohol, saying, hey, come upstairs, spend the night with me. And he remembers that he did not actually spend the night with her that night. He actually left he got scared, and he left. But the way the film tells this is that you actually see them talking to each other. And he says to her or his memory of her, I wish I had stayed. I wish that night that I had stayed. And it's so powerful to look back on the very first interaction with this person. And you see the regret. But you also see this, sort of, change in perspective that's happened to him. But then, and this is the part that is leechy for me. He leaves in the memory. And as he's leaving, Gondry has the house literally collapsed, just as his memory of her is collapsing. And so it's this good. It's multi-layered, right that their relationship seemed to be almost doomed from the start. The house is crumbling in their first interaction. And, and yet, he's also where he is now in the storyline. He knows, oh, actually, I still love her. And she whispers in his ear and meet me in Montauk. And that's what sets the chain in motion to get to come back to the beginning of the film. So it's just such a multi Vaillant image. I think that's my leechy scene.Aaron  22:05Almost leechy for the artistry, as much as anything in the story.Evan  22:09It's unforgettable, for me.Banks  22:13The artist is not lacking--that's for sure.Evan  22:16It's stunning.Aaron  22:17Oh, yeah, consistent throughout the film. I mean, the film is a complete package where every knot has been tied. It feels like you modify it. Can I jump into leechy characters? Leechiest character, I have to talk about another kind of leechy scene that kind of fits into this. The groove I'm describing about the film containing all these kind of like perfect moments of symmetry. And I … so leechy character for me, who I hate, just deeply despise and hate is Patrick, Elijah Woods character. I freaking hate that guy. For like, part of me, like I'm addicted, addicted to these ideas of like, of authenticity and originality, and to see someone sort of like, he takes Jim Carrey's journal, Joel Barish. His journal and is sort of like trying to recreate with Clementine, all these moments that Joel Barish already had with her and I'm just feeling sick watching this happen. But then the ultimate moment is when they go to the the frozen lake, the frozen lake, where Joe Parrish and says and recalls and writes down in his journal, he says they're lying down next to each other on the ice. I could die right now. I'm just happy. I've never felt that before. I'm just exactly where I want to be. And then to watch the scene where freaking Patrick, just like stumbles and fumbles his way through that line, and it means nothing and Clementine doesn't care at all. Like, oh, I Oh, this is so gross. And I hate Patrick. Like he's he like he sucks so much life out of me. He's least number one for me in this movie, that's me.Evan  24:05He is definitely high up there. I also would on that kind of leechiness, Dr. Mierzwiak. Oh, Tom Wilkinson's, character also is leechy for me, but I'm actually not going to talk about them for a while much like, in Pan's Labyrinth when Vidal was so obviously, the villain so, so terrible. Yeah, I think I mean, Mierzwiak, and Patrick are obviously leechy. And they suck life out. Yes. But for me, the painful one who is instructive and who sticks with me is kind of like what banks was saying earlier. It's Joel. I think Jim Carrey's character is really on this viewing? He sticks with me and I think so many of his insecurities and his questions and his doubts of himself and his doubts of the relationship. Man those structures towards, you know, early on. It becomes ironic later, but early on when he's looking at Kate Winslet on the train and he says, “Why do I fall in love with every woman who gives me the time of day?” I mean, that's an extreme statement. And also like, I have been in places where that is a real thought. And that movie named it. And so, I think there's that and then just his, you could tell he's smart. He's really sharp. He has some creative elements like he, I think he draws and he writes, and yet he's so unable to vocalize what he feels. He's so inside. And, yeah, there's just resonances for me that his character sticks with me and embodies those hard parts of myself but also embodies, it's just kind of he goes through a hero's journey through his mind, through his memory, I think. And we'll talk, I think we'll talk more about this. But where he ends up makes me oddly hopeful, while also recognizing the pain and struggle it took to get there is leechy for me,Aaron  26:11Can we say Have we talked about this idea that? I mean, there's something leechy about Joe, but there's also something leechy about the process of like, delving into the underworld like this is Pan's Labyrinth? We've talked about this before. But yeah, like going into the depths like this, the descent into his memory is also a descent into opening up all these different kind of Pandora's boxes of repression inside him. Yes, like the moment of shame where he longs he like longs to be hugged by his mother, but she like, won't pay attention to him or he's caught masturbating. And he's like, so uncomfortable in his own skin. Like having those boxes opened. Oh, oh, this is leechy. Indeed,Banks  26:54You cannot watch this movie, and not imagine your own embarrassing moments being so exposed. Everyone watches this movie, and everyone just like, peeks into their own little box isn't the same or like, ooh, that's like, oh, “That's what it would be for me!” There's something about that movie that,  does it like it is a journey into one's own embarrassments at times. Aaron  27:22Makes me want to tell all my dirty secrets. But I'm not going to….Banks  27:33Haha, please don't… please….I mean, you know, if, if I'm honest, I will say, I think that Joel's character is also for me right there. But if, if no one's else gonna is going to talk about you know, Dr. Howard, is it “mirrors-wack?” Miers-wack?”Evan  27:48MierzwiakBanks  27:48“Mierzwiak!” He, you know, there is one thing I would like to highlight about his leechiness, and yes, there's a huge li uncomfortable, hugely inappropriate, hugely leechy component with regard to him. You know, having an affair with a young woman and then allowing his own lab to then wipe her memory of that affair only to then rekindle it. That's just that's just absurdly, it's so bad. But like, also very believable. But like in a terrible way. For me, one of the other things, it's very easy to miss, I think, but really, just for some reason sticks with me is this is his lab. This is his company, this is his lab, this is his company, and his company, has these policies that you actually get to hear about and the background of some of the scenes. Like you get to wait in the room with Joel Well, we learned that, Oh, no, you know, “I'm sorry, Miss so and so but we can't wipe your memory three times this month. That's just against policy.” Like they're going like, it's they make they have turned this method of memory wiping, into a deeply unhealthy pattern of coping, that is, and just are profiting off of it. There's something that like you are seeing these people in waiting rooms dealing with the death of a cat, dealing with all these things, just wiping them from memory, as well. That's just what you do. So you can move on. And now obviously, like “Welcome to the modern world,” we all have our own ways of doing it. But I think that's a part of the modern world but saps us as we are just only using avoidance as our coping. Like what happens if that's what it is, what if memory wiping becomes the only way that we cope with difficulty? Like that's one of the major questions that this film asks and the answer is not a pleasant one or one that is hopeful. In fact, it's is the reconnecting of memory with difficulties, and the radical acceptance of it that I think does it there. And I'm going to stop there because I'm getting into the positives and the “hirudo therapy” aspects. For me, I'm just gonna say the doctor there has some high leech levels that need to be, uh, need to be expressed.Evan  30:18I think that's really well put and I think just to build off it real quickly, I do think that it is the contrast between characters who basically just have their mind-wiped, and where they end up by the end of the film, they're all pretty much alone. Whereas the character that did go down the road of having his mind wiped, but then chose actually to  embrace memory, Joel and then also Clem, they end up in some kind of connection. And I do think the film is we should play around with this some more but I do think that something about facing memory going into it is actually the way to connection and the avoidance leaves you alone, perhaps.Aaron  31:03Yeah, anyway, can I, I would love to jump in here because I think there was something that this movie taught me something new about leakiness Oh, oh yeah. Next to the the act of remembering and Dr. Mierzwiak and all this, that the moment so what I'm what I learned about leechiness has to do with my physical experience in my body as I'm watching a film. And there was a moment where like, from the center of my body, kind of radiating toward my hands, I started to feel physically numb, like something weird was happening to me. And the moment that that happened was when Mary, Kirsten Dunst's character, learns that her laundry was wiped at the moment where Dr. Mierzwiak's wife arrives on the scene and sees them kissing inside and, and says, “You can have him, you've had him before.” And at that moment, like my whole body just goes, [Makes out-of-body-expierence sound]....This is really like taking something it's doing something to me.Banks  32:13Isn't it true that when a leech bites you, there is a numbing agent.Evan  32:19There is a numbing protein? Yes, that's right.Aaron  32:22Oh, guys, I tell you what, I think I like me to take a quick vacation though. This is getting like, a little intense. For me.Evan  32:29It's getting a little intense. Aaron, do you want to take this top beach? Do you want to beach? Are there any leeches on that beach?Aaron  32:35I wanna do the leech on the beach segment? Come on, let's do leave on the beach. On the beach. When I try and want to go on vacation on this film, where do I go? Actually go to one of the moments of like greatest dysfunction, which is this ridiculous relationship? In the movie between Joel's two friends, Carrie and Rob. Remember what I'm talking about? Yeah, like Carrie and Rob, who are like, there's something about the way that their relationship is just so obviously bad. Like they're throwing laundry at each other and like always sniping at each other. She tries to pick up a cooler and it just like falls over on her comedy montage. Evan  33:20At the beach, at MontaukBanks  33:21At the beach!Aaron  33:21But a moment that gets me the most I just can't help but laugh is where Joe's over at their house and you just hear this relentless hammering. And Rob is just sitting at the table like making a birdhouse. Like, why? Why is this even here? Why is this happening? But uh, that's it this moment of the just deep absurdity. And we're where we're seeing actually like, what love looks at, like, in a way that's not all that inspiring or interesting. But for some reason that like it's uplifting and light-hearted to me, and I go on vacation in those moments.Evan  33:59I love that. My vacation is also related to Bob, who of course is played by David Cross, the immortal Tobias Fuque from Arrested Development, and perhaps a satire, perhaps unrelated, but in that show Arrested Development. There's a pill called a “Forgive me now.” Which I think perhaps is based on this movie. And that is a funny version of something very serious. That has happened in this movie. And I laugh at that…;Aaron  34:27that's beachy, that's beachyBanks  34:31Arrested Developemnt is talways a good beach to go to. It'll ride on Montauk anytime. Just not the Netflix seasons, don't do those.Evan  34:40Yeah, yeah. Wasted time. Well, that is our leech on a beach segment for this week. Here. Thank you for taking us to the beach.Aaron  34:50And to be clear leeches also their bodies are like segmented they are segmented worms. So the idea of segments is really nice for the pod. Thank you.Banks  35:00And we are now transported from the beach. So thank you for that.Evan  35:05We have built leach anatomy into the structure of our podcast. Speaking of which, I think it's time for some “hirudo therapy,” the medicinal purposes of leeches. Who would like to begin?Banks  35:24I'll begin with one here. So for me, I think that there is a hirudo therapy in this, you know, this, this one goes out to all the Dialectical Behavioral Therapy fans out there. But in DBT, there's this important idea called “radical acceptance.” Okay, which is the, you know, it's simply looking at difficult situations, and, and simply trying to see them as they are and accept reality for what it is. And so we can move forward. And there's this great moment, I think of radical acceptance throughout this movie, but one in particular. And that's when, after the fights after everything at the very end of the movie, you know, you know, Joel has just heard Clem's, worst comments to him, and Clem has just heard Joel lay into her and these recorded videos, and then they stand in a hallway about, they could, you know, both ready just to end it with one another. And they just say, you know, we could try again. And guess what, this is probably gonna happen again. And that's when Joel, that's when Jim Carrey's character, says, “Okay,” It's this moment of incredible radical acceptance that I've never seen a better portrait of it. It's an acceptance of who they are, and acceptance of what their relationship could be the good and the bad together. And the acceptance of, “We could see where this goes”Aaron  36:58In most moments of acceptance, with that level of like, crystalline, very fresh sense of everything that's wrong, and tragic, and toxic and weird. Yeah, that's very radical.Evan  37:11I think that connects in a lot of ways to the therapy that I was thinking about. And it connects back to my theme of fate and choice. And there's so many patterns that repeat in this movie, and you see the dynamics of their relationship, keep repeating in the memories, and they keep repeating, because in some ways, Joel is fundamentally who he is. And Clem is fundamentally who she is. And you can't change those things. And yet, Joel has been on a journey in this film, he has gone into his memory, he's gone into happy memories, but really, it's the traumatic ones that he has to go to, to come out the other side as a different person. And the time works so funny in this movie, I think Banks you put it well, it's only one night, and yet he is a different person. That morning when he wakes up, although he doesn't know it totally, than he was when he went to sleep. And I think for me, what's therapeutic about that is this acknowledgment that the way forward, perhaps in a relationship, but perhaps just for self-acceptance, is actually through memory. It's through facing past things, especially past trauma. If the way forward for Ophelia was through fantasy in Pan's Labyrinth, I think this film offers us a painful, but ultimately, a restorative way forward through memory.Aaron  38:45Yeah, this is what yeah, this is this movie is hard for me. Yeah, I think that anyone who anyone who's had a lot of heartbreak, and I've been divorced, you know, watch you watch this film and watch the kinds of dysfunction and kinds of pain that people experience here like I can, I can dredge up a lot of hard material. But I think that one of the things that I find medicinal about the film is that it's I think that after you've, after you've been really hurt by love. There's this question of like, am I gonna open myself up to that again? Is it worth opening myself up to love again? And the message of this film is it like it's a high risk proposition to love. Because the things that you will learn the things that you will come to know involve pain. And I and I find myself both really chastened by this film like, “Hello, sir. Be cautious about love but But sir, you should, you should open your heart because there's something deep and real really meaningful about coming to know that the difficult risky thing called love.”Evan  40:07I think that raises a question for me. I want to know what you think. The film seems to say. “Yes, it's hard. Yes. All this pain has happened. Yes, there's risk. But yes, but okay. But try again” or “Say yes to love again.” And just speaking for myself it. It rang true. I felt like the film earned that optimism. But I don't know what do you guys think? Did it? Did it earn it? Is it too? I mean, because there's also a way you could argue like, this relationship was toxic, and probably bad for both of them. And is it good for them to keep trying on something that?Aaron  40:57The film seems like make a virtue out of continuing to try things that are destructive?Evan  41:05Yeah, I think you could read it that way.Aaron  41:07Yeah. Make a virtue out of dysfunction. Oooh, yeah. I don't know about that.Banks  41:12You could read it just as a cycle of codependency.Evan  41:16Oh!Aaron  41:18I don't know what I think about that. That's not what I want to believe about the movie. But I think that the movie entirely leaves that door open, actually.Evan  41:26Yeah. Same.Banks  41:29I agree. Both with the sentiment of not wanting it to be that way. And also having a very hard time arguing against it. But I'm gonna fall and say it's not that's not. I'm just gonna go with my gut and say, I don't think that's what the movie is about. I think the movie is asking, in the end, it does earn, you know, as you're saying, a bit more optimism a bit more of the sense that the worst of us doesn't define the all of our future.Aaron  42:03What does that mean? I think that that immediately leads me to the burning question of if this movie is a movie that is that has this like this optimistic note to it. Like how many leeches am I supposed to give this movie? Oh?Banks  42:21Oh,Aaron  42:24OOh Ah! I see how many leeches now? Does anybody have a sense at this point?Banks  42:29I did remind our viewers we do this on a scale of four. Right? One out of four leeches: four leeches being the, you know, the the “gold standard” of a leech movie. And “one” being not so leechy, but maybe a wee-bit? “Zero” being not leechy at all. What are you doing on the show? So.Evan  42:49So I'm at I'm at three leaning for but I'm going to go three? Oh, I want to save four for a couple that, well, we will get to that. I think I just want to hold it like I think parasites are solid for oh, there's a couple of others. In my book. Here's why I'm at three. Okay. I couldn't get this film out of my mind. We watched it a while back. I've been thinking about it. I've been wanting to write about it. I've been busy and haven't been able to write about and I've been frustrated that I haven't been able to write and think about it. And so it's just like, wormed its way into my brain. And so it is stuck with me. And I think it's stuck with me on this viewing. And I'll maybe I'll highlight the other leechy scene that I didn't talk about, which is after they agree at the very end, to try again, the film actually closes with this image of the two of them on the beach in Montauk with snow on the beach. And they're running and they're like playfully, hitting each other with snow. I believe it's from maybe the first time they hung out or some other memory. But it's this playful image in this very cold beach. And it's it's a haunting image on its own. But then Gondry repeats it two more times. This repetition, this repetition, almost like the cycle of this relationship will continue and continue? Oh, and I think in a way, the coldness of the image, the repetition of it. I think it tempers a little bit of the optimism that I feel in my bones. When they reconnect. I'm like, Oh, this is the best. This is it. I think that they end the director ends with that note of No, this is a cycle of cold playfulness, not a cycle of Cold Play, but in a cycle of cola. Playfulness, that maybe that's just what love is. Or maybe it's a more ambiguous thing that he wanted leave us with I don't know, but I can't stop thinking about it. I found this film so instructive about so many things. It's such a “three-leecher” for me. I yeah, I just love this film.Aaron  45:11Mm-hmm.Banks  45:12Three leeches.Aaron  45:14Yeah, honestly, Banks. I think I need to hear from you. I'm not even like, I'm not even sure. You got to help me out, convinced me.Banks  45:21It's I think it's three. For me, I'm going to agree with Evan. And I think that its three for me, like, if I were to say, like, find to give it like, in terms of just how much I like it. I probably give this a “four out of four” stars. But we're talking leeches here.Evan  45:39Leeches not stars.Banks  45:41Just the, you know, for me, the film has so many incredible qualities, like three leeches is a high bar and it does, it sticks. It's difficult. It's it takes something out of you. I do not want to watch this movie sometime again in the near future. But I desperately.... there's a part of me that never wants it to let go either. Like, yes, it's for me like that need like, okay, that we're in leech territory here. But in the end, you know, for me, when I think of a truly [leech movie], there's almost a fear that needs to be there. There needs to be that. Like, there's a space that enters. That is deeper, that's darker, that is more powerful, maybe even brighter, I don't know, but it's just more visceral.Evan  46:35I mean, this is the most visceral podcast, it is. You tremble, you tremble before and I feel like….Banks  46:44...and I might be shaking a little bit, but ain't trembling yet. So, three leeches for me.Aaron  46:49Hmm. This movie came out in 2004. I was in high school. I think definitely at the time, I would have seen it as a one or two. I thought it was like, artsy and cool. Kind of great. But it wasn't something that likes stuck close to me. You know, at that time, I think this movie is like a heat-seeking missile, except that it is like the heat that it seeks is heartbreak. And like it sniffs out the heartbreak and attaches there. Wow. And I think that would pull me up to a three now. Definitely not for me. But that sense of it, like just finding my heartbreak and leeching on right there. Ooh, for me three. Yeah, I'll give it three for that.Banks  47:43Is this the first time we've all agreed?Evan  47:45I think so. Which is great. I think. I think aside from ratings, I think something I just feel like we have to talk about this movie or I want to name is this would be a somehow a romantic comedy, drama, a sci-fi, a horror movie, like there are horror elements in the some of those memories. It's almost like a Freudian meditation on childhood, like, and it's visually stunning. I mean, I think this is where thanks to your point, like it is a four-star in terms of the quality of filmmaking and writing and performances. I mean, we have really talked about the performances, we talked about Kate Winslet who is like,Banks  48:23She's the star. And this is yeah, she puts everyone else to shame in this movie, and everyone else is brilliant.Evan  48:33She's like, literally the figment of Jim Carey's imagination in the movie, and yet unforgettable she's unforgettable.Aaron  48:40The moment immediately comes to mind is where we're, uh, Jim Carrey is like being a baby toddler version of himself like under a table. And she is being his like mom's friend who, who's like also herself and is like, what is this dress I'm wearing? And then in order to like bring him back from his babyish waist tries to like show him her underwear. This is so strange.Banks  49:10It's so funny because like in the scene before it's like this very like sensual like thing and like, they're they like, that's where like, you like see like the underwear in there. It's like, very sexualized and very, like, you know, intimate and then it's here. It's like the least sexual scene ever, and it's such hilarious change. It's like, Oh, we're gonna flash a three-year-old. Let's just do that. It's brilliant. So weird.Evan  49:37So weird. Well, on that note, it's been another episode of the leech podcast. Thanks, everyone for tuning in. This was about the Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. There are many more episodes to come in this season. And we hope you will join us for all of them. Again, if you would like to contact us You can find us on At leech podcast on Twitter and the leech podcast on Instagram. We would love to hear from you, including leechy novels that you have in mind for a book club.Credits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher Thomas

After rollicking through another round of Leech Anatomy 101 (2:36), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Apocalypse Now's leechiest themes (8:13), scenes (14:12), and characters (21:51). To get some relief, the guys head into their second Leech on a Beach segment (31:08). They conclude by considering the film's medicinal qualities (33:04) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film's leechiness (39:57).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:Hazel Galloway, “Freshwater Leech,” Mountain Lake Biological Station (University of Virginia) [link]Jonathan Shays, Achilles in Vietnam [link]Credits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher Thomas

After a brief introduction, Dr. Dicks shares some of her encounters with medicinal leeches (2:29) before diving into the history of leech therapy (5:26). They then discuss contemporary hiroudotherapy practices (9:19) and some of the ethical implications of leech harvesting (14:45), closing with Dr. Dicks's leechiest film (23:40).

After discussing leech-themed cocktails (1:30) and another round of Leech Anatomy 101 (4:07), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Pan's Labyrinth's leechiest themes (11:28), scenes (22:00), and characters (28:10). To get some relief, the guys head into their first Leech on a Beach segment (35:17). They conclude by considering the film's medicinal qualities (38:49) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film's leechiness (44:10).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:"Leeches" Cocktail: https://www.ayearofcocktails.com/2012/05/leeches.htmlCredits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher ThomasTranscript:Evan 00:05Hello everyone, welcome back to the Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. I'm your host, Evan Cate. And I'm joined by two leechy gentlemen, Aaron Jones and BanksClark.00:16Hey guys. 00:18How's it going?Evan 00:21The Leech Podcast has a show about movies that suck the life out of you. They also stick with you. They may even be good for you. Like a leech. If you're wondering what this means, think of a movie that you saw that you knew was amazing. And it also took so much out of you that you thought I don't think I can watch this movie ever again. And somehow, some way. Later on, you watch the movie again. And it is the best thing you've ever seen. That is a leech movie. Some of our listeners are wondering, how did y'all discover leech movies? Well, the three of us discovered our shared love of leech films. When we used to teach together at a school. We found quickly that the three of us are bleeding hearts, who love films. And we all know that blood attracts leeches. So we used to teach together, but now we leech together.Banks 01:27That's a good one.Evan 01:29Thank you. Thank you, I wrote that myself. We would love for others to join us in this leechy endeavor. So if you're interested in talking to us sharing ideas, please hit us up @LeechPodcast on Twitter, and theLeechPodcast on Instagram. We've already heard from some listeners who got some great ideas. Last week we asked about leech cocktails, what would be great drinks that have a leech theme and very grateful for the listeners who shared a cocktail called leeches. Here's the recipe guys. I'd love to get your feedback on what you think about this cocktail. So the recipe for leeches: -three shots lemonade-half shot vodka-half shot peach schnapps-a quarter shot of Canadian whiskey. Preferably black velvetOkay, guys, what do you think?Banks 02:20A bit sweet for my taste. I don't know. Do I do leeches like high blood sugar? That's my question.Aaron 02:28Hey, I was thinking the appropriate lee ch cocktail might be a little stankier--like a little bit like a bleeding armpit.Banks 02:44How does one make a bleeding armpit, Aaron?Aaron 02:42I'm waiting for the listeners to figure it out.Evan 02:45It's quite the challenge that Aaron has posed to our listeners. And I do think that that was a worthy effort, but we will take more suggestions on the leech cocktail. I believe Banks has a concoction in mind. They don't want to Oh, sorry. Was that too soon to spoil that?Banks 03:00Hey, this is what I'll say..beet juice is included. So that's all I'm gonna say at this point.Aaron 03:07 Mmmmm, snaps and clapsBanks 03:09I heard the pandemic ends. You know, we will get together and we will fine tune what this is we want to hear from you guys about what your ideas are. We'll try them all.Evan 03:21Okay, nothing beats a leech cocktail. Probably a great segue into something new this week, we're gonna have a new segment called “leech on a beach.” This is a segment dedicated to fun or humorous parts of the movies because we realize many of these movies are very serious and very grueling. And sometimes some levity is needed. Beyond our puns, we thought we wanted to really highlight leechy fun parts of movies. So stay tuned.Aaron 03:50Yeah, a little vacation, little vacation.Evan 03:52You can sip on your leech cocktailAaron 04:00for the leech on the beach segment. Evan 4:01 All right, so without further ado, Aaron, please teach us about some leeches with “leech anatomy 101”Aaron 04:08Leech Anatomy 101. This week and I'd like to talk to us about leeches teeth. leeches teeth. Couple years ago, 2019 they discovered a new leech. I'm looking at the News & Observer, Smithsonian researchers who discovered a new leech that had a three jaws each containing 56 to 59 teet--56 to 59--this is a leech that bites and bleeds humans. And so intriguing to me. You look imagine this you're looking like at a straw--this is like the leeches mouth--like three rows of teeth going down into like a little cave. Oh my goodness! This is the thing that's sucking on you! And as I was reading this article, the researcher said the way they discovered this leech was simply by walking into a swamp, just south of DC and Maryland. Walking into the swamp in shorts and flip flops, and seeing what would come up when they walked out? By golly, this little critter with 56 to 59 teeth per each three rows came up attached, greenish brown with some little orange speckles. And that's a leech with some teeth.Evan 05:26Wow. Thank you for that.Banks 05:28Thank you, question mark?05:48Those were some leech teeth. Wow. Okay.05:33teach us about leech-us.05:36So let's, let's all keep this in mind as we dive into this episode of the Leech Podcast. Our movie today, of course, is Pan's Labyrinth, a wonderful film directed by Guillermo Del Toro. And to give us a synopsis of this film, Banks, take it away.05:55Happy to! Obviously about to give a synopsis. So spoiler alert! If you haven't seen the movie, this would be a good time to pause it, go watch it, come back, the recording will still be here. It'll be well worth your time. But find the right time for this movie, that's for sure. It's not, not the one that you want to have to lighten the mood. But it's a wonderful film. Another quick thing is just a quick trigger warning. This is a film that has some pretty serious, just very heavy themes, especially around childbirth, but also it has some really nasty gore scene. Nothing absurd. This isn't a slasher film by any means. But you know, there are some things involving a razor blade that is, that'll stick with you a little bit like a leech. So just wanted to cover that, my guess is we might be talking about it. So just wanted to make sure those are out of the way. And make sure that y'all know about that before we listen to that. So this is a film that bridges between just some really brutal realities of the Spanish Civil War that really holds no punches at all. And then is also paired with some just wonderful wimzie of fantasy throughout. And so it's a film that goes back and forth. And the movie just sort of layers these in, almost like a very strange leechy layered cake of realism and fantasy. One after the other. The lead character is a little girl named Ophelia. And Ophelia is the daughter of Carmen, who is sort of pregnant with her younger brother. And the younger brother's father is named Vidal who is a captain of sort of the like, what is the faction called? I think that they're called the...Aaron 07:58Falangism? Yeah.Banks 08:00Is it the Falangist movement?Evan 08:01Yeah. So it's like fascist Spain. Right. Banks 08:02Yeah, you know, a very authoritarian regime. And so we're sort of thrown into the film and when they're sort of driving out to go meet the captain. And as they arrive Ophelia finds a labyrinth. And after doing that we're sort of then introduced from into this sort of fantasy realm where she meets a fawn, who then gives her a series of trials where she has to, you know, get a key from a toad and then she has to go and you know, get a dagger from a pale man at a feast, and then finally has to then take her younger brother into the labyrinth. And while all this is happening, at the same time, we have, you know, the mother struggling with sickness and childbirth and having traveled too soon. We're seeing the rebels battle in the Spanish Civil War into this gruesome detail, as hostages are detained and tortured. And it sort of escalates further and further as Ophelia progresses more and more in these different trials. And it's both happening as if these two stories are intertwined, but also, the contrast between the fantasy and the reality is incredibly stark, and the movie does a masterful job of balancing these two motifs, and playing them off of one another. And then finally at the end, the last trial Ophelia must take her younger brother into the labyrinth, where she then refuses to spill his her brother's blood. But then she is followed by Vidal, by her at this point stepfather, who then shoots her. And Ophelia dies in the final scene, because she refused to spill the blood of her innocent brother. And as she dies, we also get this sort of fantastic…. We're sort of swept up and taken to her then becoming a princess, the princess Moana of the underworld in a very positive sense. And then she is shown to be like, these have been what all the trials have been building towards, both in reality and out of reality, both at the same time. And so that's how this movie ends. It is an incredibly difficult movie, but also an incredibly powerful one. That I don't know about you guys, but I was left exhausted at the end of it.Evan 10:25Indeed, thank you. Thanks. So we're gonna move into our categories. Our first one is leechy themes. So Aaron, what was the theme? That was Leechy for you in this movie?Aaron 10:37I want him to talk about the theme of fatherhood in the film. I think I told you both that I watched this film for the first time many years ago. And actually before I was myself a father, and I had one reaction to it, then I think, I thought, you know, I, first of all, I never want to watch this movie again. And here I am having watched it a second time with you all. So it's stuck with me though it's stuck with me. But I have to say that being a father now my daughter is seven years old, beloved to me, and watching this movie about a young girl just a couple years older than my daughter go through a lot of suffering I... and without a father in her life to protect her ….or without it just she's an incredible danger so many times, and I think I had this experience of helplessness. As a father watching the film, like there's nothing I can do to help her protect this girl. And I mean, she's perfectly capable a lot of times of protecting herself. But I was intrigued by the ways in which like her in the absence of her father, becomes crucial to the film. And also the way in which fatherhood becomes one of the fantasy elements of the film. What do I mean? What do I mean? I was intrigued by the moment early in the film before Ophelia has met Vidal, who will become her who's her stepfather figure. Her mother says, “I want you to call him your father.” And Ophelia resists this notion so many times throughout the movie when Mercedes says, Oh, you know, your father wants you to call him. “He's not my father. He's not, he's not my father,” she resisted so heavily. And her mother says to her, “it's just a word. Say it. It's just a word.” “Pretend” is what her mother is saying. And that's one fantasy. She won't pretend like there's this deep allegiance to this missing father. And the last thing I'll say, is that Vidal also seems to have this obsession with fatherhood, he desperately wants to be a father--but only to a son. To the point that he...he almost seems cold and lifeless, totally uncaring, unfeeling when his wife dies, so long as the sun is preserved. And we know that's part of his character the whole time that he he only cares about the coming of the Son and his own becoming a father. And I'm intrigued both by, I'll be brief here the, the fixation on his watch. The broken watch, which his father without his father broke at the time of his own death, so his son would know when he died. And then, with Vidal, he sees the rebels with their guns, pointing at him he wants to break his watch. He wants to be remembered to have that same masculinist legacy. And Mercedes says, Your son will never know who you are, you will be erased. And there's something so painful about that, but it feels entirely deserved, like this kind of fatherhood is a reality that should be embraced.Evan 13:40Yeah, thanks. And I think to pick up on that. He's such an extreme version er has such an extreme understanding of fatherhood. And it fits a lot of other parts of his personality, right? He's the most brutal of anybody in the film. He shows no mercy to people who disagree. with him. And he is part of an ideology that is itself. So extreme. It's extreme nationalism. And, and he's not the only extreme character in the film. And I think that's why it's extremity or going to extremes is is my theme for the movie. There's revolutionaries, who will go to extreme measures to overthrow the fascists. Fantasy is woven throughout this film, which shows these extreme versions of reality, these extreme creatures, these extreme trials and quests, all that Ophelia has to undertake with these bloated toads, or this very, extremely pale man. And the film itself even kills a young girl, it's willing to take that step, this extreme step. And so I'm just struck by the extremes of this film, on a thematic level, on a personal level. But also the extremes of beauty in this film. It's funny, you guys had to convince me to watch it, because I thought it looked really scary. And I was so struck by how many scenes took my breath away, because they were so beautiful. And I left the film with a lot more questions. Just wondering, how do you hold together these extremes? And it seems like, somehow for Ophelia these extremes that she she is thrust into, due to choices made by her mom and her stepdad. Her answer is to go to her own kind of extreme, this extreme fantasy world, which is itself painful and scary at times. And yet, it's also beautiful. And it's this way in which she deals with the extreme situation she's in with an even deeper commitment to extreme beauty.Banks 15:30Yeah, it's, I think that Guillermo Del Toro's ability to create a beauty that is odd in some senses. But even when I watch it, you know, I also like Aaron said, I watched this back in high school, and I thought that, “This is such a cool movie. It's great.” And then I watched it again now and I'm like, Hey, this is an amazing movie and be Oof. Like, I was, I remember, you know, we all watched this together, and we were all speechless. For a minute. We were on a zoom call silent, together, just not knowing what to do with it. Partially because of the difficulty, but also because of the beauty of it, how it's masterful and putting that in terms of extremes just make so much sense. I don't know if Aaron, you had anything to say before I jump into mine?Aaron 16:29 No, please go aheadBanks 16:32I think that I just sent around the question of, it's about imagination and the question is this about imagination? Ophelia is fantasy world, something that is simply an escape from the traumatic reality that she's in. This interplay between trauma and imagination, for me, is incredibly powerful. You know, I was an art teacher for eight years. And as a result of that, just ended up being utterly inspired by students facing down incredible difficulty through art and imagination, to the point where I left and now I work in mental health. And so when I watch this movie, all I can, I'm asking, “Well, is this just about imagination as an escape? Or is this about something more than that?” I love that the film just creates this dynamic interplay between those two and we are just left to wonder left to be thoughtful with a bit of a mess at the end. You know, so much of the film is, you know, I think about the opening scene where she, Ophelia walks into the woods because her mother is experiencing morning sickness. And she finds this odd winged bug. And this, and she immediately knows that this is a fairy. And then in sort of in the seclusion and darkness as her mother sleeps back in the house, this transforms into an actual fairy that anybody could recognize, you know, with human form, and dragonfly wings. And it's that slippage. Is this happening? Is it not? Does she actually go into the door that she carves into a wall and face down the world's most frightening monster with eyes in his hands? Or is this simply a flight of fancy? And if it is, why does she fly to such frightening spaces? Why does she go to spaces that are not an escape that you'd want to go to? And I just think that that interplay is so powerful. And the power because it speaks to the power of stories and the power of imagination and the power of why we want to watch movies even to begin with. It's not because just escapism, it's because they speak to us for some reason in the midst of all of it. And that theme I have no resolution for. But man, it is stuck to me like a leech. I'll tell you what.Aaron 19:14Yea, Banks you just put a thought in my head that it's like. It's like in the world of reality she faces trauma and horror, and she has no no power, no quests, no influence. But she translates her trauma and horror into the language and symbology of myth. And then there she has agency in the myths, she has agency and influence and empowerment. And even though it's terrifying. And I just there's something about the creative space that is an empowering space, the fantasy space.Evan 19:47It's like the issue isn't the danger. The issue is agency. Yes. She's not afraid of danger. She's a brave girl. The issue is that with the doll, she's, she has no agency.Banks 20:03And with her mother's failing health. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what can you do? Right.Aaron 20:07Rather than put a Mandrake root in a bowl of milk. Banks 20:11Don't forget the blood. Aaron 20:13Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. More on that. Yes.Evan 20:19So indeed, more to come. So with those themes, the fatherhood extremes and imagination and trauma, let's think about some really specific things about this film. There are a number of leechy scenes that suck something out of you, but stick with you. I thought I would start. Mine in nothing very profound, I don't think but it is the scene where her first trial, where she goes down to find that key. And she meets this gigantic Toad, and she's in the muck underground. And it's just this large, bloated Toad, with bumps and weird colors and sounds. And it basically just, like explodes and belches out this key. And I don't think I'll ever forget it. And it's, it's stuck with me. So that's my scene.Banks 21:15Man. And I believe that there are things sticking on her and that seem to mean she's covered in. I remember, you're like texting to each other like, Oh, my gosh, she's covered in leeches! Evan 21:30It was very on brand for the Leech Podcast.Banks 21:35But like, she emerges from that, like from the stump covered in muck, right. And even then, right, she has been returned to the dinner party. Right, it's a moment of sort of the world, the extremes colliding, right. A powerful moment. You know, so for me, it's another one of the trial scenes, and oh my gosh, you know, I was alluding to it before but the scene with “the pale man” as it's called, right, with the feast of all the red foods, the murals of this devourer of infants sort of reminds me of Saturn Devouring his Children, this old like painting. Good heavens. It's frightening as anything. And here's this personification of all of that. with Hannah, the scene is literally it not only is very much just about the devouring of, you know, blood, and even the food is all red. All the foods are red. And blood is itself I think, a theme and a visual motif throughout the movie. But when I think of Pan's Labyrinth, unfortunately--I wish it wasn'--the image that comes to my mind is, you know, that pale man walking with his eyes in his hands next to his forehead. You know, full credit. I believe Doug Jones, the person who did sort of the body acting for that, and it's masterful work out amazing work and sort of practical special effects throughout this. That moment sticks with me and I think about it. And I don't want to be necessarily and I in the same way, I don't want that leech on me. Like when I think of the leeches scene, that's it. And it's an overflowing of imaginative imagery. It's full of these ripe themes. That also, it makes my skin crawl. So for me, that wins out. Aaron 24:03Yeah, it doesn't get much leecheir. I have to say, for me, I've scene that sticks with me and take something out of me is this scene of conflict, where I think it's one of the first times that I really remember in the film of Ophelia, and Vidal, her stepfather colliding. And it's the scene at her mother's bedside where Ophelia has been under the bed, tending to the Mandrake with the milk and the blood that she thinks is this healing agent that the Father has given her to help her mother's health and pregnancy. And Vidal finds the bowl and hurls the Mandrake root into the fire, and Ophelia turns and watches the child burn. And good lord, it's this moment of just incredible violence like talk about he who devours infants, he who destroys and is enemy to children, it has to be down. And then that moment, right, he again takes away all her agency, destroys that thing, where she's tried to take control of her mother's health. And you can just see all the foreshadowing in that moment that whatever fatherhood means to him, it's just gonna burn, it's gonna burn it's that moment is terrible.Banks 25:26Good heavens. Think about how that pulls together. I mean, talk about a moment where the extremes collide, the moment where it goes into the fire and you're wondering, is it just a weird root? They are, and then… it starts I can hear right now…Aaron 25:25[Shudders]Banks 25:26...the scream of that root. Oh, are those screams just in her head? Where are they? Are they real? It pulls together all the themes into this just melting pot of just discomfort. Oh, that scene, Aaron...I might have to change my vote.Evan 26:11I mean, these are very Leechy scenes and I guess I mean, Vidal is central in that last one. I mean, next you have a leechy, leechiest character because I feel like he would be in the running, perhaps. Banks 26:30Oh good heavens, I think he's a front runner. I mean, here's, here's the only thing. The reason why I actually don't have the doll as the front runner. Or as the leeches character in this case, is a leech is not the host. If nothing else Vidal is a person of conviction. He is a host... of evil in my opinion. I mean, he is the worst, but he is authentic. He believes and he has drunk the Kool Aid and he is all behind everything making no qualms about it.Aaron 27:12I mean, I think he has three rows of 56 or 59 teeth each Good lord.Banks 27:17I mean, but here's the thing I wonder if the leeches are the ones who are not even taking aside at all. And so I think of, if you look at the banquet, not the banquet that happens with the pale man, but of you know, you see a priest, you see all these people who are there, they're not the rebels. They're there just let me hold on to my wealth and I'm gonna say “Okay” to whatever. And to me that speaks a lot to politics right now. I I think that it's a that that might get a little too real but...Evan 27:49The priest, man….Banks 27:56So if I had to put my finger on an actual character though there, though it's Garces. He's the lieutenant under the Vidal. He's the one who's always uncertain. He [Vidal] always speaks to him. Like, “you know, do you know how a man dies? You know, go into battle. Don't be fair. Don't be afraid, you know, does that and then he just sort of learns that he dies and he just sort of has been. He's a character who was just leeching onto the host who is Vidal? Evil host that he is. He is he had he was spineless. And I'm gonna have to ask our anatomy expert. I'm gonna say Vidall has spine. But do leeches have spines?28:40I'm gonna hold that off until next episode, so those who want to get listening, we're gonna learn about leech spines on the next episode. Do they have spines? Stay tuned.28:51Good plug. Good plug. Aaron, do you have a leaky character?Aaron 28:57All right, let me think. I think I'm reading leechiness in a little bit of a different way. I'm, you know, Ophelia is always gonna be the character in this film, who sticks with me and take something out of me. And watching this watching her struggle, watching her overcome, and even like, stare down, stare down an armed man who wants to kill her? That's always gonna stick with me. Watching her refuse on the very cusp of achieving this mythic salvation that she's been hoping for watching her refuse to hurt the child in her arms. I'm not going to forget that. And that's, that's leads for me. So he does it hurts. take something out of me. But it's medicine. It's it's medicine too. That's what I have.Evan 29:50I think I'm interpreting my character similarly to you, Aaron. I first toyed with the idea of Vidal, which maybe we all did. Because he definitely sucks the life out of me. And kind of out of the film. I mean, every scene he's in, you're just like,”Ehhh” it's like fascism is exhausting. But like to quote Lebowski, thanks to your point Banks, “Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism? You know, it's an ethos.” He's terrible. Yeah, he has a spine, but it's in the worst ways, right? So I don't see some great lesson or there's no therapy for me in his life. And, and so the character that will stick with me, who I found myself drawn to again and again was Mercedes. I think she holds together these extremes of realism and fantasy in her own way. It is really beautiful. She is the most practical, the most inside the fascist place, knows everything, knows what's going on, has so much trust. And yet she's directing all of that towards this very idealistic thing, revolution, which is, and the bravery, the brilliance, the courage. It's so powerful, and I won't forget her character. And I mean, she has so many unforgettable, unforgettable scenes. And I think, to me... it I think it's fitting that she's the one who cuts Vidal. And she's the one who physically defeats him. She is, I think, the strongest character in the film. Yeah. I mean, many characters are strong, but to me, she, she seems to match Vidal in a certain kind of strength, a kind of political strength. And yet, even there, she does him because she cuts him but she doesn't kill him. She defeats him, but doesn't take his humanity from him. And so I just, I was so taken with her and she will stick with me. And I was so terrified the whole movie that she was going to die. And so in that sense, watching her journey and struggle, sucked the life out of me. Even though she ended up living at the end of the film. So Mercedes for me, is the Leechy character.Aaron 32:07There's something really fitting about her being, in a way she is, she is a mother figure to Ophelia. And many times she provides in ways that Ophelia's mother just can't. Because her life is being sucked out of her at least away from her by the child inside of her So Mercedes, also in a way becomes the recipient, I would say, of afilias sacrifice. Uh huh. She becomes the beneficiary. She won't ever forget a philia and therefore is a different person, I think, at the end of the film.Evan 32:44Okay, so listeners, we're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna pause now for our newest segment, “Leech on a Beach.”Evan 35:32I'll start us off. This is a scene that is, I wouldn't say necessarily light. It is very violent. But after Captain Vidal, gets his mouth sliced by Mercedes, he sews it back up himself with a mirror. Very painful, it looks terrible. And then, too, I guess, disinfected, he takes a sip of whiskey. And it comes out of the wound that he's just sewn up, and he spits it out because it's so painful. And maybe it says a lot about the state of my soul, but I laughed out loud at that moment. And that was my leechy scene, or not my Leechy scene my leech on a beach, in part because it also then made me think of Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight, and the Joker. And all I could think was “Why so serious?”Aaron 33:54Oh, I was gonna say, Evan, this is not what my experience of vacation looks like. Normally when I'm going to the beach, I'm hoping for a better vacation than you just gave me. But I'll uh, I'll answer that I'm gonna try and be a little more lighthearted. And that for me, like when How do I go on vacation in this movie, and this hard movie? I'm still getting the live site data man. I'm at the beach is still leech at the beach. For me, it's for me the character in the film. Who does that, for me is the character of the light. The sunlight in the film for me is its own character. Just like when I'm at the beach, you know? And if you watch scene by scene, the way that the light presents itself in the film, as as a golden light, or is this light clear as water at different moments in the forest? For me, that's when I find myself receiving ease and going on vacation in the middle of a hard film.Banks 34:56I think that Ophelia the actress is Ivana Bachero. She has one of the world's most authentic smiles. And you see it every time something fantastic occurs, she gives this smile. It's the smile that says there is good still, and there is joy still. And yet something can be well. And in spite of all the heaviness that happens, man, that's like a summer breeze on a sunny day. I will enjoy that every time. And it like there's this weird thing right? When she meets a fairy, she finds a rock and like, shoves it into like a statue as its eye and then like a little bug shoots out of his mouth. Everyone else in their sasne mind would freak out, she smiles.Evan 36:05So I think that's a good segue to our next category which is “Hirudo Therapy.” The fancy way of saying the medicinal value of leeches. And I think maybe I'll start us off. I think for me, the idea in this film, or the thing that sticks with me, that makes the film, not just painful, but also instructive, is kind of this idea that when you're in pain, you should dive deeper into what is beautiful. And yet also, as you do so, you become aware that beauty itself brings its own kind of pain. I'm just struck by the ways Ophelia in the midst of all the suffering that she's in, she she dies, she moves toward beauty, but even that beauty is scary and hard, but it's also what she needs, it seems. And so, I guess my lesson is that the opposite of pain isn't happiness or the absence of pain. It's beauty. Only beauty can re-narrate, or redirect, or bring a new kind of order to pain and loss.Banks 37:21And it's not because it's the opposite of it, right? It's just the next step. Right? It's the answer as you put it.Evan 37:30And I thought about, there's a quote attributed to Dostoevsky, which is “Only beauty can save the world.” And I think it's a great quote, I think it's true in many ways. And I looked into it a little bit. It comes from a passage in the novel The idiot. And it's in a scene where this Prince is looking at a painting of a woman. And he says, “So you appreciate that kind of beauty.” This woman asked the prince, he says, “Yes, that kind.” The prince replies with an effort. “Why?” She asks. “In that face, there is much suffering,” he says, as though involuntarily, as though he is talking to himself. “Beauty like that is strength.” One of the other women in the room declares, “One could turn the world upside down with beauty like that.”Aaron 38:20I think for me, I'd say elaborate on that. what I wanted to talk about, you said strength, but for me, it was courage, watching the different kinds of courage that made themselves felt and the film. I'm thinking of Dr. Ferrero, the physician who helps the ailing mother, he helps wounded soldiers on both sides. He doesn't have a side other than the side of life; life prevailing, life being protected. And watching him watching Mercedes, watching Ophelia, this watching these people in the most, these awful circumstances, have courage. Its both inexplicable it's deeply moral, it's, but it's one of the most real things in the film, and it's moving to me, and it's inspiring to me, and its Hirudotherapy.Banks 39:26At least in movie form. When I think of the medicinal quality of this movie it is the love of story of narrative. It's the fact that if you want to tell a story, you can put any two things your imagination wants together, and there's a way to tell that story in a way that will captivate and move. All you have to do is see a path between the two. And somehow in Guillermo Del Toro's mind--which I have want to be able to think like in half don't want, I don't know--he saw a way to narrate the sort of fantasy world, right? That would make JK Rowling envious, and combine that with the brutality of the Spanish Civil War, and he charted a path right through the both of them. And it worked.Aaron 40:27I'm coming back to that. Coming back to the idea of courage. I think that one of the things that Ophelia embodies in the heart of this film is that she decides to value and treasure stories. Against all odds and against constant contradiction from the adults around her are saying, “Get out of your fairytale books stop fleeing into fantasy, stop imagining.” And you're right, like, her resistance is an act of courage and it's, it's enshrining the value of story at the heart of the film.Evan 41:02How many leeches do we give this film?Aaron 41:06How many leeches?Banks 41:09One is the lowest four is the highest, if I'm not mistaken?Aaron 41:12Specifically because four leeches would take your life. Just kidding. That's not actually true. I'll tell you how many leeches it would take to take a life on a future segment. Keep listening.Evan 41:26It's a four point scale still, I know Aaron wanted to cut a leech in half and call that five leeches. Yeah, four leeches. I think is still the criteriaBanks 41:39I'm going to give it fourAaron 41:11Say more, say more.Banks 41:42When I think of movies that, you know, is that, as Evan said in the intro, the movies that you watch that stick with you, then you watch them again and they floor ya. That's what happened when I watched this movie again with you guys. And it's not because I didn't know this movie. Well, I think I'd seen it multiple times, it just had been five or 10 years. And it did for me. And it stuck with me ever since it stuck with me before then. It ain't pleasant. I think it's utterly medicinal. And here's the thing the medicinal part about it has changed for me. As I've grown, as I've moved into mental health, this movie has opened up new layers. And maybe I'm biased because I got this mental health side that I'm really focused in on and this movie clearly has a huge psychological element. But it speaks to me, I'm going to give it four leeches, and I don't care who knows it,Aaron 42:42Damn? Evan 42:43Bolt, I love it.Aaron 42:44I was gonna say I mean, come back to the idea of fatherhood. Let me also come back to the idea of people walking into swamps in shorts and flip flops. Oftentimes, when leech hunters would go into the swamps, and actually oftentimes collecting leeches on their own body for medicinal purposes that they could then take off put into a basket, give to a medical practitioner, they would have to wait at least, oftentimes 20 minutes, like leave a leech on for that long because it's so much easier to take a leech off. Once it's already full it lets go easier. And for me, this movie just kept taking it, I'm giving it three leeches because it for me, as a father watching the end in this film, it took too much. It took too much. And that's why I'm gonna give it three.Evan 43:48So I think I was in a slightly different position, because it's just the first time I saw it. And I'll admit it, I was speechless at the end of it. And yet, I had, I felt it was hard connect for me in certain ways. And yet, as time has gone on, since we've watched it, and I think especially through this conversation, I'm at three leeches as well. I was, I was at two for a little while, just because I felt like I didn't connect to it for some reason. But the more I sat with it, and kind of like what you were saying thanks about story and about the power of narrative and art to work through or work into trauma and pain. I do think this film is profound for that. So I'm a three leecher for this one.Banks 44:39These are high marks. I think that is a, we are holding out at a 3.25/4.Evan 44:49All right. Well that. That brings us to the end of another episode of The leech. Thanks to all our listeners, for tuning in. We would love to hear what you thought about this episode. Again. You can find us on Twitter @LeechPodcast and on Instagram at theLeechPodcast, please. Yes, suggestions, ideas. If there are leechy scenes that we missed, please send us clips, send us summaries, send us videos of you reenacting them! We want to see it all.Aaron 45:23Not all of us are going to watch that.45:29Please keep them appropriate. Please, yeah, talk to us. Tell us what you think about the pod. And we would love to hear from you. Thanks for tuning in. On behalf of Banks and Aaron, I'm Evan Cate. This is the Leech Podcast.

After introducing a new segment, Leech Anatomy 101 (2:06), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Parasite's leechiest themes (8:06), scenes (20:24), and characters (30:37). They conclude by considering the film's medicinal qualities (41:29) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film's leechiness (52:08).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:Credits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher Thomas

After describing the pod's origin, Aaron, Banks, and Evan dive into the leechiest themes (7:01), scenes (18:07), and characters (28:05) from the film. They conclude by considering the film's medicinal qualities (34:09) and giving an overall rating – from 1 to 4 – of the film's leechiness (39:52).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media: @leechpodcast on Twitter, theleechpodcast on InstagramCredits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help from Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher Thomas