Podcasts about 50i

John 12:37–50I. The Judgment of God in Jesus – 37-43II. The Salvation of God in Jesus – 44-50

In this episode, Tim sits down with longtime friend and financial advisor Dave Appleton, who brings over 40 years of experience in financial planning. Dave shares insights on the importance of long-term financial strategies, emphasizing visualization as a powerful tool for understanding complex financial concepts. He explains key principles like the rule of 72 for investment growth and the value of diversification to secure financial stability across generations. Through real-life client stories, Dave highlights how proper planning can lead to financial success and security, while short-term thinking—like what fueled the tech bubble—can be detrimental.Beyond finances, Dave and Tim explore the importance of staying active and engaged in retirement to maintain both mental and physical well-being. They discuss how early retirement without purpose can increase the risk of cognitive decline and why continuous learning, including leveraging screen time for education, can keep the mind sharp. Dave also shares how simple visualization techniques—like using sugar cubes to demonstrate financial impact—can make complex topics more accessible. Tune in for a conversation that blends financial wisdom with practical life lessons, helping you make smarter choices for a more secure and fulfilling future.About Dave AppletonDave has been assisting individuals with the planning of their Lifestyle Retirement goals. His objective is to provide individuals and business owners with the advice they need to achieve their immediate and long-term goals by offering a wide range of financial products and services through Planning Strategies Group Ltd. In 2004, Dave was awarded by the Financial Planning Standards Council of Canada (along with two other business associates), the prestigious award of "Advisor of the Year".In addition to help develop and manage a Financial Planning department for a major world-wide Life Insurance corporation, he was also one of the first individuals to set up a full service Financial Planning company in association with accountants and lawyers, this providing a one-stop service for individuals and business owners needing Financial, Estate and Tax Planning advice.—Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Dave Appleton: Linkedin: Dave Appleton--TranscriptDave  00:01A picture is worth 1000 words. You get good screen time. You've got 10,000 words, and the memory of a picture is a lot greater than the memory reading from a book. I'm not saying you don't remember. It's just that the picture is there and you can visualize, and if you can visualize something down the road in 10 years, five years. But the thing is, it imprints is there, but the book isn't the same as a picture as that picture. This is why this has become a lot more usable. Tim  00:33I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action. Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet. Welcome to the 53rd episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Tim 1:06Welcome back, everybody. Thanks for joining us again. Here on the Sweet on Leadership podcast, I have a dear friend joining me today. I'd like to introduce you all to Dave Appleton. Dave Appleton has been a friend of our family, helping us with financial decisions. We've known each other for years. We came from the same community, but Dave means so much to the health and the wealth and the happiness of my family that it's a real pleasure that I get to introduce all of you today to this fine man. So Dave, thanks for joining us. I hope that this is a fun experience, and I'm looking forward to all the reactions we're going to get from this, because I know that the lessons and the messages that you have and what you've taught me in the past is going to resonate with a lot of people out there that are trying to improve their influence and their impact with others and their life in general. So again, I'm really excited for this one. Dave 02:01Happy for you. It's been a pleasure. Tim  02:06Okay, Dave, why don't you tell us a little bit about you and the company you run and give us a picture for what your purpose in life is. That would be great.  Dave  02:14First of all, I have been in this business for over 40 years.  Tim  02:19Yeah, wealth management and financial advisory. Dave  02:23Yeah, and insurance and I started with, years ago, I started with Manulife. And it's funny because I went with Manulife because they were focused on money products, like financial planning, and that really attracted me. Prior to that, I was in real estate for I had my own business in real estate for about 15 years. And I think when you go from one type of business to another, but they're both linked to financial, there's a lot of crossover of information that you maintain and or keep. And I think I've always been in the money side of things, because it intrigues me. Real Estate, you're helping people. Transitioned over into the financial services industry. And I say financial services insurance was not the hot topic at that time. It was more helping people with their money, retirement planning, things like that. And interestingly enough, I joined Manulife because they bought or developed a plan, a financial planning plan from California, Financial Profiles. It was called, and it was a dot matrix program. Tim 3:30Yeah, so floppy disks? Dave 3:30Well, it was a very slow process, and I to relay a story to that, I remember one time I was doing a plan for somebody, and I said, Oh, I hit the button to say, I want the whole plan. Four hours later, we finally got the plan. I actually went out for dinner and came back and it was still printing. So it shows you how things have changed, from a technology point of view. And, you know, it's interesting when you look at these things and how financial planning has become a hot topic. Before people, oh, yeah, financial planning. And there was all sorts of people that said they were financial planners. You don't want to become a product peddler, shall we say, but you want to become a financial planner, where you're looking at analyzing and helping people get reach their goals. And what financial planning does is it forces you to look at the things you want to do, where you are in life, what direction you want to go, family, everything else, and then you plan accordingly. Tim  04:23What's one or two of the most meaningful transformations you've seen families that you've helped make. Dave  04:30Most of my clients have been with me for over 25 years. And interestingly enough, when you look at where they started from and where they are now, and I'm not the magic guy, it's just that when you have the information, you can make the right decisions, or hopefully in guidance. And that's all you know, a financial planner isn't guide, shall we say, guide of going through life. And you, you provide people with information, and then they can discuss those options and choices that you they have to do or and help them along the way. Sometimes it's just a couple, then it becomes a couple and some children, and goes from there. And yeah, some of the couples I started with that had children, the children are now clients of mine too. So yeah, it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing business. And I like that, because I think, and that's the teacher in me, because I taught a couple of years. So yeah. Tim  05:20You know your client set is really interesting, because you've been with some of them from the very beginning all the way through to the very end and you know, for us, and we've been clients of yours for years after we were introduced by a good friend, and you spend your days, you have the focus to spend your days looking at what options are out there, what movements are out there? What needs to be done keeping an eye on that aspect of my and my wife's life, you're calling me and saying, Hey, this is happening. This is going on. We need to move something around, or we need to plan for something in the future. And so you're able to devote your time to keeping an eye on things for people where they may not have the time or the expertise to keep that that attention as high as it needs to be. My clients, even this week, when they're facing challenges of leadership and team, they may never have dealt with that challenge before. They're not an expert at getting out of that issue. I deal with it 30 times a year, and so I specialize in some of the issues that they call me in for If your faucet is leaking, you call a plumber, right? You don't call the local baker or something. That's what I notice for sure. Do you think captures it? Dave  06:32As a planner, I'm not a chartered accountant, I'm not a lawyer, but I think the people that are in need of financial advice are the business owners, the self employed and people that have family situations and that getting the right advice is so important when you're planning for your future. And I think that's the problem. Is most people don't think far enough ahead. They think ahead, but they don't they think about next year, but they don't think about five years, ten years, and where am I going to be and making a big financial plan when you're 30 years old. I stopped doing the big, complex financial plans because there's too many changes between age 40 and 60 in retirement years or 30 and and 50. And you can do a plan, but it doesn't have to be a complex plan. Yeah, and I think that's the key is you gotta, you just gotta have a direction and understand things, understand terminology. What's an RSP, what's a RIF? These are things that we I think every business has their own acronyms. What's your GDS ratio? People say GDS, well, gross debt service ratio, and then that's how they qualify you for a mortgage. Every industry has these little short forms in that, like here, in ours, we have the riff, we have the list, and people look at you, and you got to be careful, as an advisor, not to utilize these term, this terminology, without explaining what it is, because if you say it and they don't understand it, they're not listening from there on. Tim  08:00So that's that brings us to a really interesting point, because, you know, again, I consider you one of my close friends now at this point. And for those of you that can't pick this up in Dave's voice, because you sound spry and youthful, and you are, you know, you're the same age as my dad. You'll have a big birthday coming up this year, right? And when we talk on the phone or whatever, to me, age is irrelevant. It's trust and respect and mutual interest in the other person's well being and all of those things that kind of come into play. And a big part of that for us, Dave has been that you come to the house when we need to be thinking a certain way. You keep us on a plan and on a track, and you help us see things differently. You help us consider all of our options. You put everything on the table. And you do this in such a personal way, because one of your one of your habits, is to always be doing this in really close proximity. It's not something that's kept at a distance. It's very intimate. And we're having coffee and we're sitting around the table, and it's… Dave  09:08Tim, I'll interrupt you there. That's why I come to your house for a free cup of coffee. There you go.  Tim  09:12There you go. Free cup of coffee. Oh, I hope our coffee is all right. But when you think about that, and you think about the value that you can bring to somebody by having them get out of their bubble and thinking long term, right? That's one of the biggest benefits that you've given us, is allowing us to take a much longer view. And in the middle of COVID, when things are a little bit hot, rational outside perspective, focus on the larger picture here. Don't get too bent about the little moves. What kind of problems in the world or with families are associated with that thinking too close, thinking too much in the short term. Dave  09:50I'll give you a good example, in the tech bubble. When it was back in the 2000s, that tech bubble we talk about it, tech stocks were just i. Everybody wanted to be in tech. And I had, I think I might have, might have told you this before, I had a client who was a GIC client, and we finally got him involved in some insurance company segregated funds, which are like mutual funds, because of the guarantees that they provide. That was a big step for him. And I always remember he was there for years, and when the tech market was going crazy, he says, oh, we were making like 16% in on our on his investments, and he wanted to move because his neighbor next door was in tech, and he was making 24% so he moved all his money into tech. I didn't do it. I said, I think you're crazy. And as we know, the tech market went from $1 to 20 cents, in some cases, some of those stocks, and it was a short term thinking, talking about long term, short term. One thing if people can remember, the one thing if they can remember, is the rule of 72 and the rule of 72 is, if you take 72 divided by the interest rate that you earn on your investment, that's how long it takes your money to double. So if I get 10% as an example, it's going to double in 7.2 years. Yeah, if I get 5% Oh, guess what? Now it's double the time. If I get 2% I get, Oh, here you go, the banks give me 2% of my on my savings account. It's going to take your money 30 plus years to double at 2% and we're only talking a difference of, Oh, I get 7% that's 10 years. I'm going to use 8% as an example. So every nine years, my money doubles. So if I put in $10,000.09 years later, and I get 9% I get nine years, my might becomes $28,000, it's the next nine years with 20 becomes 40, and then 80, it's a doubling of the doubling. And I think that's what people forget, is it's, that's the long term thinking. And if you can, you don't need 50% returns. You don't need 40% because now you gotta add in the one thing that really affects everything is the risk factor. Yeah, okay, I got a picture in my office, and it's actually, I think it's down Pebble Beach. It's the one where they shoot the golf ball the holes across the ocean. There Was You gotta get it across, and the bottom of it is risk. I'm looking at it now, and you look at these things, you think, oh, yeah, because people don't sometimes look at the risk side. I'm not saying people don't make more money in short term, but don't put all your money.  Tim  12:34I think there's a crossover there to life, and that is in terms of Jen and I, when it comes to either finances or what we do more broadly, in the things we choose to engage in, you want to have things in your life that are very solid, that are foundational, that give you that low or or controlled risk environment, so that you have bandwidth to take some risks in other areas of your life. So you know, when it comes to investment, I have a portion of my portfolio that is in startup companies and things which are a little higher risk, but the stability of my long term investments gives me the ability to play over in those spaces without feeling overly exposed, right? It gives me a little bit of freedom. And it's the same thing that financial stability that we've created with you, allows me to take the risks that are associated with being an entrepreneur and being a business owner and investing in my business and making plays in my business, which other people might find very scary that don't want to take those risks, and so balancing that kind of net risk is part of that control part of our life that allows us to then be free and creative over in other parts of our life where we need to be free and creative. Dave  13:59Yeah, I think you have to ask yourself, Where did you go through life? You got to say, okay, is my investment an investment, or is my investment a gamble? And when it becomes a gamble, the risk factor goes up considerably. We all do this, but you don't do it with 100% or 80%, 50% of your money. You want to play the game. As I always tell people, you want to play the stock market. You take some money and go play it. It becomes a gamble when you're taking I gotta double my money overnight. I'm gonna bet this one horse, and he's gonna. It's a hot tip. Tim  14:31Just this past week, I used the phrase again when I was doing some career work with an executive. We were talking about getting stuck in waiting for someone else to promote you, hoping that somebody notices you. That, to me, is a gamble, right? That you're hoping that other people are going to do something in the same way, that if you're not enjoying your job and you jump and you don't know what you're moving into, or you're not leaving with a feeling of success from wherever you jumped off. You're playing the career lottery, and longer term thinking says we have to slow some things down. We have to really analyze what all of the inputs are and then make the best possible strategic moves to lower the risk overall. It doesn't mean you can't do exciting things. It doesn't mean you can't take risks, but you do it with as much data and as much controlled risk as possible, I think there's great lessons that transfer over to how we think about the game of money and investment and financial literacy and all of those things, when we start to apply those same lessons to our life. Dave  15:37Yeah, and I think there's been a lot of stuff written books and that on people that win the lotteries, yeah, and you look at it and you say, a lot of those people don't have the money in five years. They win big money, and they don't do the planning. They don't, a million dollars. You can't retire on a million dollars. As a kid, I used to watch the program The Millionaire on TV, and a million dollars, back 40 years ago, was a lot of money. I had a client that they inherited $900,000 and of course, one year, if you can believe it, they spent $100,000 in travel costs. They started to listen to me because I said, Well, you're just going to burn it up because you can't expect to double your money replace that type of usage in one year. Hey, you want to have a travel budget, that's fine, but stick to the budget. I mean, I always like to tell people you want to, we like cruising. And you know, when you do it, they got six month cruises. Those cruises are $200,000 people buy those tickets, but those are people that have a lot more. And 200,000 is probably like 20,000 for the average person. They use that money because they're going to, obviously, they're going to be out traveling around, doing spending, and they're not just spending 200,000 on the cruise those cruise ships sell out. But I look at cost of living things like that, we're going to go through this with the tariffs and everything. I think this is going to cause a great wake up call for a lot of people. Yeah, they're going to have to start looking at the deals that are out there. You know, are you going to go out and buy oranges if they're going to cost you 10 bucks a pound or whatever? I don't think so. So these are things that people have to start looking at. Investing money. I'm going to say, Well, okay, don't tell me. I'm going in for lower risk. I'm going to invest in my GIC. Well, that's a risk. Yeah, right away. It's a risk because the risk is you're going to run out of money, yeah, because you can't survive on a 2% rate of return when inflation is three. And you can't survive if you're 40 years old. Putting into GICs, the key, I think, to any investing is diversification, and diversification simply means that I got my money all over the world. You've got a whole blend. Don't get into the risky diversifications.  Tim  17:53Yes, I think it's a great segue into thinking about the real risk of decisions. And again, this is one perspective I'd love to ask you about right now. One thing that we know is happening is perhaps people invested and are able to retire right now. And so you and I had lots of talks around retire at 60 or retire at 65 and we're seeing lots of strong data now coming out about the increased dementia risk when people are bored and when they're not active and feeling useful, even having suitable amounts of stress, and definitely a notion of having purpose and a community and people that hang around is really important. And taking that decision that this is when people retire, decision, this is what we should do. This is what society says we, when we should put ourselves out to pasture. That's never been your game. For the people that are out there listening. Drop that knowledge on them. Drop what you told me about the thought of staying sharp, challenging yourself to help other people.  Dave  18:59I think working and keeping I'm not saying it's going to prevent dementia, but it forces you to remember things. It forces you to be active, forces you to interact. And I think the highest risk retirees, if you can believe it, are the police and firemen. Because they have a high, high stress job, they retire, and they sit retire, and they sit at home, watch TV and bang, and the mind goes, I'll be working on the day I die, as I said, and I don't mind that, because you feel you're interacting, you're you're alive. Let's put it this way, you see at Home Depot, you see all these people that are retired and they're working there. When you take an Uber, I like taking an Uber because you're talking to people that are, yeah, they're working and everything you're getting life stories from these people, yeah, really interesting to hear the life stories of different people. Tim  19:49Any year I have clients, probably three to five a year are people that are on to second careers. They're 60-65 or older. They've retired. And it's hasn't worked for them. They're starting businesses. They're entering into consulting. Often the story is that they finished working when they were told they should finish working, when they were prepared to finish working, and they're bored. My clients are primarily very driven people. They're leaders of organizations. They're people that are not satisfied with kind of mailing it in and taking it as it comes. And you're not going to suddenly become somebody who is going to be satisfied with a boring existence or a purposeless existence after you retire. And so pay attention to who you are now, there are things that people misidentify as, stuff that'll never change when it actually can change, and there's things that people think will change when it actually won't change, for instance, your personality or your drive, and in some way, shape or form, you're not going to suddenly change who you are, right? Some of those things are pretty baked in. We've come quite a ways here. We've talked about the lessons that we can capture from long term thinking. We have talked about how important it is to think this way, Assuredly when it comes to our wealth and when it comes to life and planning and family, what do you want people to challenge themselves to do? After listening to this. Dave  21:25You got a plan around what they have. What is your lifestyle? What is your family situation? Do you have kids? Do you care about your grandkids? Are these factors so we put away 150 bucks a month for the grandkids when they hit age 60 or 65 there's a half a million dollars in access to cash flow. And you know, there's different things, you know, you say, oh, inflation, Oh, that's too much money. Tim 21:49150, bucks a month is too much. Dave 21:50It's not too much more than 10 bucks or a cup of coffee every day. It's 300 bucks a month, right there. If you don't do that, how much you're going to have when the kids hit 65 you can save money, and if you're willing to adapt, I'm not going to buy steak every day. Well, I'll buy it if it's on sale once in a while, but I don't think everybody should have steak every day anyway, so it's not good for your body.  Tim  22:14So you help people plan from a financial perspective. I help them plan from a career perspective. I think it's always hilarious that when I ask somebody they've spent more time planning one vacation or buying one car than they've ever put into where are they going in this life, making decisions, looking at what we're starting with, and mobilizing the assets we've got and the choices we can make towards the future that we want to have. Dave  22:44You're a good example, Tim, you were a chef. You did things and you changed. You've changed careers, and you were good, but then you say, Do I want to do this for the rest of my life? And you made a change, and I made a change. I taught for a couple of years, and I made a change. If people look ahead and say, Okay, I gotta, I gotta change, make a change in my direction, because otherwise, if I keep going this way, I'm going to fall off the cliff.  Tim  23:08Yeah, yeah. Or somebody else can decide when I fall off the cliff.  Dave  23:12Well, as I've said to you, and other people say, I'll live to, I want to live to 125 because I want to see them, uh, grow up. But, yeah, that's not going to happen. But it's think that way. Maybe it does.  Tim  23:22Yeah, and some people start with more privilege than others, or better situations than others. But wherever you're starting, having a plan and being intentional versus leaving it up to chance, you'll do better off regardless of your starting position. We do this little game here where we play a hopscotch game between guests. In a previous episode, we had Jared Vandermeer, who was a social media expert, join us, and he lobbed a question, which we're going to play for you now that I'd like you to respond to. Jared  23:52Let's talk screen time. I challenge you to look at your screen time on your phone, if you're comfortable, share your screen time with the audience and then let us know what you're doing to manage it, if anything, at this current time. Dave  24:05I, first of all, I probably don't know my screen time because I use my phone what's changed, and I'm not making excuses. This is, this is my diary, you might say, and everything in it, because I… Tim  24:17Yeah, same thing. It's our office on our hip.  Dave  24:21It's a tool. Yeah, it's not. Now, I would probably say, I we talk screen time. I'd like to say, Okay, let's What's your screen time in front of that TV? Yes, to me, it's true screen time. And yeah, I say there's people that spend hours, an hour in front of a TV and watching, what do they watch? Nothing. Oh, I'm going to watch the news, their news crazy or whatever. And I watch TV, but what I really enjoy is, if you can learn, even my grandkids like sitting there watching a cartoon is one thing. Sitting there and watching a program that is a learning, use it as a learning tool. The Smithsonian on TV is free use now, and the history and things like, that's what. To learn. That's good screen time. Yeah, okay, that's like reading it. That's a video book, almost, because you're seeing history and actual photos and things like that. That's good screen time watching some movie. I know people that they're movie buffs, and they go, that's all they watch. And I think you gotta differentiate. There's nothing wrong with screen time, we see it now how it's come into the educational system. The kids can watch it, but it's not watching cartoons. It's a learning tool.  Tim  25:29Is there quality screen time versus something that's keeping you from investing that time in better ways? We should be a little more discerning when we say screen time to are there things that can help us grow? So I love that answer, Dave. Dave  25:46Yeah, I think it's the old adage, like a picture's worth 1000 words. You get good screen time. You've got 10,000 words, and the memory of a picture is a lot greater than the memory reading from a book. I'm not saying you don't remember. It's just that the picture is there and you can visualize, and if you can visualize something down the road in 10 years, five years. I mean, I can, like I said to you earlier, I remember that movie The Millionaire, and I can, you can almost picture some of the old TV. And I can't remember the guy's name or what. But the thing is, it imprints, is there, but the book isn't the same as a picture as that picture. This is why this has become a lot more usable. Problem is they've let the use of this not why they ban it in schools. Is because the kids are saying, well, I'm texting out Sally over there in the other side of the room, and we're going back and forth and things like that. That's not the intended use. Whereas, if they said go into Google this and Google dinosaurs, will say, you know, if you see, you know, a video on dinosaurs and how they lived and things like that, it sinks in. It's an impression that kids suddenly say, Oh yeah, I see that pterodactyl. And now I know what the pterodactyl is. My kids, my grandkids, when they you know, we go to the drunk Heller, and they know the names of the dinosaurs, and they're six years old, for crying out love, if you can bring that type of screen time in early ages, it really helps them down the road in terms of reading and things like that.  Tim  27:17In the 15th century, intellectuals and religious leaders were fearful that, because of the printing press, books would overload the population with information and ideas. And there was a scientist called Conrad Gessner. He lived around 1550 in there. He warned that the flood of information was going to be confusing and harmful coming from books that most people couldn't handle it. And we have to think of the quality of information that are pulling in the intended use. And so we have to, you know, get really chunky on what's the what is the good use of this tool, this new technology, and what is the harmful use, and don't confuse and conflate the two. And make sure that we're being pretty honest when we consider these things. Dave  28:08Am I going to read a book about dinosaurs, or am I going to show pictures of dinosaurs and talk about it, okay? And this is one thing people should think about. Talk about visualization. One sugar cube is roughly four grams. The number of sugar cubes on different things. The highest one was the Tim Hortons candy cane hot chocolate.  Tim  28:28Yeah, how many sugar cubes?  Dave 28:3116Tim 28:3116?Dave 28:32In one cup. Tim 28:33Yeah, so that's… Dave  28:3364.Tim 28:3364 grams… that's  a quarter of a cup. So you don't, are you gonna put a, would you sit down with a spoon or a straw and drink a quarter cup of sugar? Probably not. Dave  28:46But, and so when I look at when I look at when I go, if I go shopping, and I look at the gram, because being diabetic, you gotta see how much is the sugar. I mean, I can visualize when I say what it says, 16 grams of sugar. I say, hold it. Like one cookie is 16 grams of sugar. It's like a muffin is 30 grams of sugar. You say, What is 30 grams? I can tell you what 30 grams is, it's seven and a half sugar cubes. I say, Oh, crap, I can't eat that.  Tim  29:11You're gonna be a lot better off translate Dave  29:13Things that sort of, you can remember so to speak. Tim  29:16Yeah, yeah. We used to say speak in people's currency, because working with, if I'm working with one of my very first regional management jobs with was with a large scale food manufacturer, and I would be talking about waste, and if you're talking in dollars and cents, that didn't mean a lot to people on the line. But if I said we're throwing out the equivalent of two dump trucks full of dough every week. That's what we're after. That's what we're chasing. And that meant something to them, because they could visualize a dump truck full of dough. Okay, Dave, last question, what would be something in life that you would be one business that you would be just curious about asking a stranger, that you could get some out of the box thinking with something you're interested in related to life or work or whatnot. What would you ask somebody? What would be a question that would be on your mind? Dave  30:14What are your goals in life here that you want to achieve? Because that determines what road you go down, that's your road map. What is your goal in life? What's the most important thing in life that you feel is something you would want to do? You got to be able to visualize things that comes to planning and everything else you know. And if you can do that, if you apply that same concept in your life and financial and everything else, if you know what the goal is, the quality falls into place, that's the philosophy of life.  Tim  30:43Well thanks very much for spending this time with me, Dave. Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host. Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Send us a textAn episode by request from a listener!  This is by extension, a part II of a question answered in Episode 116;  "how do you defend your creative boundaries" except this part II is a more advanced version:  "How to tell your friends “no”.  Like, kind wonderful people in your life want to collaborate/have you in a performance but it simply does not align with your goals OR you know that you will not work well together."Let's hit it!What you'll hear:You can listen to part 1 of this question here on Episode 116 1:00There's another Charleston Artist Salon happening in April!  Click here to add yourself to the local list to be kept up to date 2:20I'm applying to the SC Arts Directory  2:50I'm also ACTIVELY LOOKING for new creation/rehearsal space in Charleston, SC.  If you know of anything, please do reach out and let me know!  You can contact me through my website here. 4:30Why this part II is an advanced level boundaries question 6:28Storytime from my own life about friendship conflict 9:00You have TWO CHOICES when presented with an opportunity you do not want to take with someone you care about (almost everyone will take option #1) 11:04Why being brutally honest is a greater kindness 18:00Homework!  Ask for something in the hopes of being told no, just as an experiment 19:00Don't go back to sleep.xoRachelSign up here for monthly blasts and functional wooFind me on InstagramSupport this podcast on Patreon

Mum Guilt - or just female guilt? So many of you tell me you feel it.In this episode I explore what it is and how we can change how we feel about taking time for ourselves.If you want my planning guide you can get it here: https://themumbossmethod.activehosted.com/f/50I am taking applications for both group and 1:1 coaching for January now. Click here to apply Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/themumbossmethod/Join my Free Facebook Community at: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ChrissieHillerCoachingOr check out the video recording of this Podcast here on my Youtube ChannelGet The Mum Boss Method Self-Care Journal here: https://amzn.eu/d/3MQ9VkUEmail: chrissie@themumbossmethod.com

This week it's the return of your questions - this time on the topic of natural term breastfeeding.Questions answered - 2:28How does self weaning happen?8:57Is there evidence of calories needed to not affect milk supply while pursuing weight loss?12:47My baby is 13 months old and my health visitor recently said she only needs two feeds a day at this age, so not to feel guilty if I want to impose limitations. Is this rooted in any evidence?15:03Breastfeeding and travel - I need to go away for three to four days. This is the first time I've had more than six hours separation from my son since his birth. I'm not sure how to go about it.22:51I would like to know what you can do if you were tandem feeding, and suddenly start to have strong nursing aversions with the older nursling but don't want to wean, especially if the older one is a Boobie Monster and demands boob for nap and multiple times in the night.27:40I would love to know what natural term feeding looks like?29:50I don't want to wean, but I need to be away from my 18 month old for an indeterminate amount of nights. I know breastfeeding can re-start after a break, but is there a length of time where being away could force weaning?33:24Excuse my new mom ignorance, natural term breastfeeding - does that mean that it ends on baby's terms or when milk dries up?38:27 How do I overcome the feelings of guilt for schedule feeding my firstborn from four months, and then he lost interest in breastfeeding around one year. And now I'm feeding and comfort feeding my now one-year-old all through the night and sometimes in the day? It seems so unfair.42:05I'd love to know more about uni boobing, and how common this is when natural term breastfeeding? Does your supply increase on that side? Or does it cap at whatever you've been doing for so long?45:10Something about dealing with judgement would be helpful. I do plan to carry on but I'm a bit worried about other people's judgement when I'm out and about and I'm starting to feel a bit uncomfortable at 12 months.49:38 Can I get some information on the benefits of breastfeeding older children?51:08Could you discuss natural term breastfeeding when feeding a younger sibling, so a four year old and a two year old, for example?52:24It's common advice to not offer a child alternatives if they're being a picky eater, especially something they previously liked. How do I weigh this up against responsive feeding? 56:42I'm at 20 months. I'm not planning to wean anytime soon, but I'm trying to put some boundaries in place. Do I just keep trying? Or does she need more time to get used to the idea of breastfeeding not always being there on demand?1:00:15Okay, this might be TMI, but I really want to know if my nipples are ever going to shrink back. Is there anything I can do to change my nipple shape?1:01:25I'd love to know if using a dummy as a toddler, and if mom getting pregnant can affect natural term breastfeeding?My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents', is out now.You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.comResources mentioned - When Breastfeeding Sucks: What you need to know about nursing aversion and agitation (lllgbbooks.co.uk)Instagram accounts - Lucy Upton @childrensdietitianStacey Zimmels @feedeatspeakThis podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Send us a Text Message.The theme today kids, is AGING. Fuck. The Word Of The Day "Dulcify" 02:15My worst memory event of my entire life. 03:50I get my eyebrows from my father and they are actually caterpillars 13:40Headline Scrolls starting w/ Joey Chestnut switching sides & getting banned from the hot dog eating contest is HILARIOUS 17:30The Aging Trifecta - My Shitty Knee 27:35Show Close 37:30If you're enjoying the content and/or interested in supporting all the things, including the BIG ONE, the upcoming Smitty Learns Irish PUB-Cast maybe consider becoming a Patron for as low as $3 a month for basic support. $5 a month for Something In Your Mouth access, featuring live tastings, extended cuts & more. Then if you'd like the full What The Hell everything experience, that's available for only $7 a month. The help is immeasurable and you get a lot of great extra content, to boot!.  https://www.patreon.com/We3smithsPlus a Linktree for more Smith if that's your'e into that kinda thing... https://linktr.ee/we3smithsSupport the Show.Please like and subscribe and if you dig the podcast, there's an entire world of past (and future) episodes to dig through. Some of 'em are actually good!!!https://www.patreon.com/We3smiths Spotify Rock Radar / Stoner Reaction Playlist https://open.spotify.com/playlist/23JV982jY8qTrTKpw0lXXg?si=c7097dcf1fc046d8Also, check out my other social media links Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SmittyOnDuhInternetPrivate Facebook group where I share more content and a growing community- Smitty's SmitHole Slipper Club (Slippers not required but encouraged) https://www.facebook.com/groups/we3smithsInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/hungoversmitty/Twitter: https://twitter.com/HungoverSmittySpotify Rock Radar / Stoner Reaction Playlist https://open.spotify.com/playlist/23JV982jY8qTrTKpw0lXXg?si=c7097dcf1fc046d8

Rambling on all sorta things on the show, including but not limited to...Show Intro - 01:15The Word Of The Day "Persnickety" 02:40Existing & upcoming content 05:00My upcoming  St. Paddy's party in Chicago with Irish band The Scratch  09:05I stepped on my cat's tail and felt like an abuser 13:50I ruptured my brother's appendix when I was 18 - 16:20People that say they don't like old music because it sounds "old" is the dumbest argument ever 18:35Headline Scrolls - 23:35& more #whatthehelleverything Podcast recordings, including song and other sorts of reactions happen Monday, Wednesdays & Fridays at 9AM Eastern, mostly on Patreon with the occasional public recording on YouTube. If you take part in live recordings, feel free to come at me with your best reaction suggestion!If you're enjoying the content and/or interested in supporting the upcoming Smitty Learns Irish PUB-Cast, album reactions and more, perhaps consider becoming a Patron for as low as $3 a month. $5 tier for liveset reactions and deep music rabbit hole stuff. The help is immeasurable.  https://www.patreon.com/We3smiths Want to check out some more podcasts and maybe consider downloading an episode or two on Spotify for a ridiculous commute or a road trip?Please like and subscribe and if you dig the podcast, there's an entire world of past (and future) episodes to dig through. Some of 'em are actually good!!! The What The Hell Everything Spotify page for audio versions of the podcast. https://open.spotify.com/show/6Bz5kd828SJGJyIYXRm2po?si=102c62f5cc5d4e09 Also, check out my other social media links Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SmittyOnDuhInternet Private Facebook group where I share more content and a growing community- Smitty's SmitHole Slipper Club (Slippers not required but encouraged) https://www.facebook.com/groups/we3smiths Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hungoversmitty/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/HungoverSmitty Spotify Rock Radar / Stoner Reaction Playlist https://open.spotify.com/playlist/23JV982jY8qTrTKpw0lXXg?si=c7097dcf1fc046d8Support the showPlease like and subscribe and if you dig the podcast, there's an entire world of past (and future) episodes to dig through. Some of 'em are actually good!!!https://www.patreon.com/We3smiths Spotify Rock Radar / Stoner Reaction Playlist https://open.spotify.com/playlist/23JV982jY8qTrTKpw0lXXg?si=c7097dcf1fc046d8Also, check out my other social media links Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SmittyOnDuhInternetPrivate Facebook group where I share more content and a growing community- Smitty's SmitHole Slipper Club (Slippers not required but encouraged) https://www.facebook.com/groups/we3smithsInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/hungoversmitty/Twitter: https://twitter.com/HungoverSmittySpotify Rock Radar / Stoner Reaction Playlist https://open.spotify.com/playlist/23JV982jY8qTrTKpw0lXXg?si=c7097dcf1fc046d8

50I tell you this, brothers:flesh and bloodcannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.51Behold! I tell you a mystery.We shall not all sleep,but we shall all be changed,52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. Forthe trumpet will sound, andthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, andthis mortal body must put on immortality.54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.55O death, where is your victory?O death, where is your sting? 56The sting of death is sin, andthe power of sin is the law.57But thanks be to God,who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding inthe work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lordyour labor is not in vain.

50I tell you this, brothers:flesh and bloodcannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.51Behold! I tell you a mystery.We shall not all sleep,but we shall all be changed,52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. Forthe trumpet will sound, andthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, andthis mortal body must put on immortality.54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.55O death, where is your victory?O death, where is your sting? 56The sting of death is sin, andthe power of sin is the law.57But thanks be to God,who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding inthe work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lordyour labor is not in vain.

Per a recent Coindesk article https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/09/13/surprisingly-few-us-customers-want-their-bittrex-money-back/:Surprisingly Few U.S. Customers Want Their Bittrex Money BackThe U.S. Secret Service kept millions on the exchange, company lawyers told a bankruptcy court – but other creditors have been strangely reluctant to ask for their funds back....Unofficial Computer-Autogenerated Transcript, to Assist the Hearing Impaired etc.00:00:00Mr. Mosco, welcome. It's good to see you.00:00:11Good to see you too, Your Honor.00:00:14Mr. Shepard Carter, I like the tie. Is that black and orange?00:00:19This is black. No, it's not black and orange. It's dark, dark blue and orange, which are the colors of your alma mater.00:00:26The colors of my alma mater are black and orange. Oh, then it's black and orange.00:00:30Your instincts are excellent. You may proceed. Mr. Mosco, good morning again. Good to see you.00:00:35I should have known that since they were the Tigers. They are the Tigers.00:00:37We are the Tigers.00:00:39Good morning, Your Honor. We sent over to chambers a PowerPoint presentation. I can hand up an extra copy if you'd like.00:00:48I have it. Thank you.00:00:49And thanks for the Court's time today. It may seem like a bit of navel gazing going on here because there's not a controversy,00:00:58but we did want to update the Court from our last presentation, from where we are. All the work is being done behind the scenes that you haven't seen.00:01:07I appreciate that, and certainly no apology is necessary. I'm always happy to take a status report.00:01:14As you just mentioned, I really have limited visibility into most of the cases that I have, and often then it just turns into a very ugly surprise when everything blows up all at once.00:01:25So I'm hoping that's not going to happen here, but I certainly do appreciate the guidance that you're offering.00:01:31Correct, Your Honor. Just to level set and for the record, Patty Tomasko, Quinn Emanuel on behalf of the Dutters, and I'm joined by my colleague, Ken Ennis from the Young Conaway Firm.00:01:43We just wanted to go through where we were. The last presentation that we gave you, we had very low engagement from the customers that we had asked to withdraw their crypto.00:01:54As you know, the Court entered an order allowing the customers to begin withdrawing cryptocurrency and fiat currency as of June 15th is when we reopened the platform after the May 8th petition date.00:02:07So we wanted to go through that. I also want to introduce the Court to, we have a couple of the legal staff from Bittrex, Caleb Barker and David Maria.00:02:21David Maria is the General Counsel of Bittrex and Caleb Barker is the Assistant General Counsel of Bittrex.00:02:29Very good. Welcome, gentlemen.00:02:31Morning, Your Honor. If I get something wrong, which I frequently do, they will correct me and I've invited them to be live so that as we go through this, if I get something wrong, they can say, or if the Court has any questions about what we've done and all of the efforts that have gone into this and where we are with the status of the withdrawals.00:02:50I'm not going to bore the Court with the history, but as you know, we filed the bankruptcy petition on May 8th. The Court entered the customer withdrawal order on June 13th. We reopened the platform on June 15th.00:03:06This is consistent with the main goal of the case, which was to set up a process by which Bittrex USA operations could be wound down, along with the sister company Bittrex Malta, which is a Maltese organization that has been roughly out of operation since late 2018.00:03:30So to that end, if you turn to slide six, you can see our Chapter 11 timeline to where we are today.00:03:38Of course, we have a disclosure statement hearing coming up on the 27th.00:03:44Right.00:03:45And this is sort of to get everybody, you know, oriented correctly as we face that.00:03:51So far, I will say we have gotten only informal comments and nothing momentous with respect to the disclosure statement or the plan. We're getting language, incorporating it. All of that's going to plan.00:04:05Turning to slide eight, as I mentioned, we still have to comply as we're doing customer withdrawals with the various regulatory requirements for the payment.00:04:20KYC and KML stuff.00:04:22The main that I call them, Finson and OFAC.00:04:25Finson is concerned with financial crimes.00:04:29They want to have all the KYC information from the customer.00:04:32So are you really who you say you are?00:04:35And they also want to know that, you know, you're not engaging in some kind of money laundering.00:04:42So that's that's really what they're about.00:04:45OFAC is concerned with persons in foreign countries engaging in financial transactions in the U.S.00:04:54So those two regulatory requirements are built into the algorithms of the platform.00:05:00OK.00:05:03So we also wanted them to update, accept the updated terms of service, which also incorporate these regulatory requirements. And so that process has been underway.00:05:17So in conjunction with that, there was, of course, an increase in activity with the help desk.00:05:24The company engaged overtime help desk assistance.00:05:31And that has continued all the way through August 31st when the help desk was shut down, consistent with the August 31st, 2023, part eight.00:05:47So that help desk activity kind of demonstrates how much the company has been working with the customers.00:05:53There's been forty seven thousand plus customer help desk tickets and a lot.00:06:01And then the other the other interesting thing is there's two factor authentication.00:06:06Obviously, this is dealing with financial assets.00:06:08And so that process of, you know, I know in my law firm to get logged on in the morning, sometimes it takes me 15 minutes as I'm going through all of the steps.00:06:19The same thing happens on this platform. So you have two factor authentication.00:06:23You're going to get a text to your phone and an email.00:06:26And those two things combined give you, you know, the best security, high level confidence that you're dealing with the right person.00:06:37Thirty five thousand nine hundred seventy two customers have withdrawn their like kind assets for a total value of one hundred and forty three point seven six million dollars worth of crypto.00:06:48This is in addition to approximately twenty three million that was withdrawn during the April wind down period immediately before the petition was filed.00:07:00So on slide eleven. We've broken these numbers down.00:07:08By the number of customers remaining and the number of customers that have withdrawn.00:07:20So the value of crypto withdrawn is one hundred and forty three point six point seven six million broken down between Bittrex US of ninety five million and Bittrex Malta of forty eight million.00:07:39OK. So one of the things we wanted to explore was why were we getting such low levels of engagement.00:07:46And so in the beginning and so we broke it down between customers with balances over one hundred dollars and customers with balances under one hundred dollars and of the remaining customers.00:07:58Their balances are under one hundred dollars. That's the number of those is seventy seven percent of the remaining customers have balances under one hundred dollars.00:08:09So we have a combination that you've talked about earlier. We have what may be stale accounts with dated or old or ineffective contact information and then basically relatively modest amounts that nobody's necessarily wondering where my money go.00:08:25Correct your honor. OK. And I will tell you anecdotally I've been monitoring things like the Bittrex Twitter Bittrex Reddit.00:08:33You know the various sites where customers are engaging more frankly and the sentiment is you know I don't want to give you all that information to get to get thirty five dollars correct.00:08:49OK. They really are making a calculated decision. They know about it and we're going to go through the notice process in a bit. But we have also prioritized we took a list of the crypto customers that remained and we put them in in rank order of highest to lowest and we engage with them directly.00:09:11Send them an email not just a group email sent them an email and said hey you've got this much you need to get it off. And so that's where we've seen a lot of success. You know understandably.00:09:21OK. So 11 of the top 50 customers by balance have withdrawn substantially all their assets for a total of eight point seven million of withdrawn balances. Five hundred and seventeen of the seven hundred and one users with a balance over one hundred thousand have withdrawn substantially all of their assets.00:09:44And so that you know prioritizing the large dollar dollar customers has really paid off in terms of getting the crypto off. Most of the remaining accounts are inactive and have been inactive for a year or more.00:09:58Fifty one point two percent have been active in the last two years. Only forty one point one percent of the remaining funds are associated with user accounts that have shown no activity since December 31 of 2019.00:10:15The story with them is most of them signed up with inadequate information.00:10:20OK.00:10:24Also we've been actively engaging with the government on a couple of accounts. Some of the accounts were involved in criminal proceedings criminal forfeiture proceedings and we've cooperated with the U.S. Attorney's Office the Justice Department and the SEC to withdraw those amounts that were subject to those criminal forfeiture proceedings.00:10:45The Secret Service had one of our largest accounts of six point two million dollars.00:10:55We worked with that agency for them to successfully withdraw that amount.00:11:00OK. As I said.00:11:03Notice has been extremely robust. We knew it was going to be a large number of potential creditors. We we did not spare.00:11:16We spent every dollar that was responsibly spent to get notice out.00:11:22But this is in addition to the numerous emails that have gone out to customers throughout the history of the company in particular Bittrex Malta because it shut down operations in 2019.00:11:34It's since you know more than a million emails to its users in October of 2019 advising them that it was shutting down its platform.00:11:46So it was known as Bittrex International at that time and it the company decided it no longer wanted to operate Bittrex International.00:11:56So it started shutting down and moving those accounts over to Bittrex Global.00:12:01So additional notices went out as reflected on this slide and they were notified at the end of 2019.00:12:13The Bittrex International was no longer going to support those accounts.00:12:19So that was over the course of a year. A lot of effort went into getting customers off that platform.00:12:24Sure. Now Bittrex US made the decision to shut down its platform in late March of 2020.00:12:35But even before that Bittrex had reached out to customers with inactive balances starting in March of 2022.00:12:48It emailed inactive customers and asked them to update their account information and to otherwise interact with the platform.00:13:00Inactive accounts also got letters in August of 2022 and in 2023 Bittrex mailed postcards to additional inactive customers.00:13:14As I said in March of 2023 Bittrex announced via Twitter that it was shutting down its US operations.00:13:22It sent an email to 1,045,323 users. Reminder emails were sent to 521,000 accounts on various dates in April.00:13:36Between March 31 and April 30 the customer support team resolved 27,000 help desk tickets.00:13:45After the bankruptcy 1.6 million customers got notice of the commencement via email.00:13:59Regular mail went to 44,000 parties in interest including certain customers where we knew their email wasn't good.00:14:09In total via email or regular mail Omni served the notice of the commencement on 1.652 million customers.00:14:21We similarly adopted a robust approach to the bar date notice knowing how important it was in the case of this type.00:14:30Could you remind me what's the bar date? What was the bar date?00:14:32The bar date was August 31. This status report may seem random but it happens to happen after the bar date before the disclosure statement.00:14:43That gets pretty timely.00:14:47That bar date went to even more customers, 1.9 million customers and regular mail to 57,000 parties in interest.00:14:59In total 2 million customers received either email or mail notice of the bar date.00:15:10There was also publication notice in CoinDesk, Wall Street Journal, and the Financial Times of London and the Financial Times of Malta.00:15:21It's not just financial. All of those publication notices have been filed on the docket.00:15:33There have been also social media efforts on Twitter. Twitter messages in June, July, and at the end of July.00:15:43There was a Reddit message on July 26. There was a text message where SMS had been authorized for the customers on August 2.00:15:52Can I ask just out of curiosity, who is doing that messaging via Twitter? Is that coming directly from the company or is that being managed by Omni or Kroll or somebody else?00:16:01It's being done by the company through the company's normal social media accounts.00:16:10As I said, I've been monitoring them as well, looking at customer feedback and seeing if there was anything that looked like a customer had a legitimate break.00:16:21We've been dealing with those throughout.00:16:25In addition, we prioritized balances over $100,000 and sent an additional mail to postcard to 73,000 customers on August 3.00:16:44We detailed the emails that have gone out to the email addresses on the platform and how those were targeted towards different groups with certain balances or locations in an attempt to provide as much notice as possible to the customers.00:17:06In addition to the withdrawals, the debtors have received 3,292 claims, of which 3,240 are customer proofs of claim and 52 are non-customer proofs of claim.00:17:19We, just so the court knows, it is our intention because some of the claims were filed by customers with very large amounts in them. One such claim had $160 million claimed.00:17:36We do plan on starting the proof of claim objection process soon, in the next few weeks.00:17:46We are cordially happy to accommodate scheduling in connection with that.00:17:50Thank you, Your Honor.00:17:51While I usually like to get creditors' votes before I object to their claims in this case, the proof of claim process is going to require company resources to resolve them.00:18:04It is as much a cost saving measure as it is trying to get to the bottom of these claims for feasibility purposes as well. The $150 million claim plus the SEC plus FinCEN, OFAC, that might get on the edge of feasibility.00:18:22We are going to have some of those objections filed.00:18:25Okay. I understand.00:18:28We filed our plan and disclosure statement on August 25th. We have our disclosure statement hearing on September 26th.00:18:39For disclosure purposes, we've only unimpaired priority claims because they're statutorily unimpaired. Everybody else is going to get a chance to vote.00:18:50Whether or not they're impaired will lead for a confirmation objection, but everybody's going to get to vote.00:18:57That leaves our next few deadlines of disclosure statement hearing.00:19:033018 motions on 929. Voting is on October 16.00:19:11Confirmation hearing is October 23rd.00:19:17If the court has any other questions, we wanted to present that to the court showing where we are post-BAR date, pre-discourse statement.00:19:27This is particularly helpful to me. I appreciate getting the heads up.00:19:30Again, as I said, I really don't have much visibility.00:19:33Most of the activity you've described is not necessarily taking place on the docket or in open court.00:19:41At the outset of this case, you all reported that there were many, many holders or potential holders and lots of people with an interest in this exercise.00:19:50You laid out with, I think, specificity what your intentions were in terms of dealing with those folks.00:19:58I think you started and repeated a number of times that the circumstances of this particular crypto case are very different from most of the others that are pending or in the ABI headlines.00:20:08I get it. Let me ask you a question.00:20:11It is just, frankly, out of curiosity.00:20:13I confess that I have not gone back and looked again at the plan and the disclosure statement.00:20:17That hearing is coming up in a couple of weeks, and I will certainly be prepared for that.00:20:22The process that you've just described clearly leads to an assumption that there will be significant assets and the number of parties that have lost interest in this exercise.00:20:36They've only got $25, $50, $100 with you. They don't want to fill out a bunch of paperwork over it. They haven't thought about this since 2018. I get it.00:20:45This would seem to me, then, to be one of these cases that has a fair number of assets at the end of it that need to be disposed of, and I assume that the plan provides for the mechanism for doing that.00:21:03Is there an expectation that there will be funds left over that are not claimed by creditors, and do they then get used in the implementation of the plan, or are they given away, or is geded, or I don't know exactly what happens?00:21:18Sources and uses?00:21:19Yeah.00:21:20So we're going to have claims. We have settlements with FinCEN, OPAC, and the SEC. Those are significant numbers.00:21:27Right.00:21:28We have the costs of administration. We have the claims that are on file, so those will all come out of whatever is left.00:21:37But at this point, one of the reasons why we want to do some claim objections is to make sure we have enough to pay all the claims, and if those are successful, I believe there will be money left over.00:21:51Okay.00:21:52Well, the claims reconciliation process is an exercise that, as you described, is often one that depends upon the judgment and discretion of the debtor about the fights that are, whether it's worth picking these fights, but obviously some of these steps may need to be taken in the context of the confirmation process.00:22:12If you need scheduling with respect to claims administration, again, you can contact Ms. Velo in my chambers, and she'll be happy to give you hearing data if you need it.00:22:20Correct. We've been working with Mr. Enos in terms of coming up with any kind of procedures that we're going to conform with the local rules.00:22:31I will tell you our approach is we're going to take the low-hanging fruit first, which is duplicates.00:22:41Yeah, you separate wheat from chaff.00:22:43Yeah, but in the very large claims that were filed that have no correlation with what is shown on the debtor's books and records.00:22:51Okay.00:22:52Well, I do not have any questions and again I very much appreciate getting the report.00:23:00You know this case has unusual features, but all the crypto cases do but these are at least features that I can understand when they're explained to me.00:23:09Yes, Mr. Sheppard Carter, did you have anything to answer?00:23:14Sure.00:23:17For the record, Richard Park, the United States, trustee, we haven't completed our review of the plan disclosure statement and the procedures, of course, attended there to the deadlines 21st.00:23:27I'm hoping that by Friday, I can get out my comments to counsel.00:23:32I like to do it that way, get the comments out, see if we can work through what we can work through. If we have to file objections, we'll take that up into the course.00:23:42I think after that, we'll just go to plan confirmation and we'll see where we go from there and hopefully we get there in the middle of October.00:23:53Very good.00:23:54Other than that, if nothing else, you're all invited.00:23:56I note that we have a number of parties that are participating virtually. I would ask if anyone else wishes to be heard with respect to the debtor's status report to the court on developments in the Chapter 11 case.00:24:13Hearing no response, again, I very much appreciate getting the status report from the debtor. I had no further questions.00:24:19As noted, if the debtor requires scheduling or other support from the court as you move forward through the disclosure statement and into plan confirmation, all you need to do is call chambers and we'll be happy to accommodate with any scheduling needs that you have.00:24:34But with that, I believe we are adjourned. Thank you, counsel.00:24:37We stand in recess.

Do women still need to get on the course to progress their careers in major programmes? Does The Boys Club still exist in 2023? Inclusivity and ambition—how are they connected? Navigating Major Programmes podcast co-host, Corail Bourrelier Fabiani, shares her Oxford Saïd Business School dissertation's insightful findings in this week's episode. Riccardo and Corail take a deep dive into equality, diversity and inclusion in the infrastructure industry uncovering the taboo topics that have been avoided for decades.   “In the research, you can see that women's interests are not really accommodated in major urban transport infrastructure programs,” says Corail. “And there is a big gender data gap, which is kind of reinforcing inequalities in this space. In my opinion, all this is reinforced by the fact that we don't have enough women at the top. So I thought, how are we changing this?”   Corail, the accomplished programme manager behind projects such as the Paddington Square Public Art Programme and the Shard Quarter Public Art Programme in London, concludes the discussion with four steps to solve this complex, systemic issue.   Key Takeaways:  The seven gender-related challenges in major programmes and how to solve them.How language labels leaders as men and how applications can encourage the women talent pool to apply.How to alter networking and affinity bias in order to better support women in infrastructure and why women-designed networks with male allies are so vital.The scarcity mindset and what happens to women at the top.  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community: Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInCorail Bourrelier Fabiani on LinkedIn Transcript:Riccardo Cosentino  00:05You're listening to Navigating Major Programmes, the podcast that aims to elevate the conversations happening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'm your host, Riccardo Cosentino brings over 20 years of major product management experience. Most recently, I graduated from Oxford University's day business school, which shook my belief when it comes to navigating major problems. Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode, as I press the industry experts about the complexity of major program management, emerging digital trends and the critical leadership required to approach these multibillion dollar projects. Let's see where the conversation takes us. Hi, welcome back to another episode of navigating major programs. Today I'm here with a recurring guest and co-host of this podcast.   Corail  01:03I am with Corail Riccardo Cosentino  01:04l, how're you doing? Corail  01:06I am doing great. Thank you, Riccardo, Riccardo Cosentino  01:08Thank you for joining us again. Really glad that you're here today. Today, we're gonna talk about your dissertation from your master's degree at Oxford. If I remember correctly, you did a dissertation titled, "do women need to play golf in order to lead measure programs?" really catchy title? But maybe you can tell us a bit more why you picked that dissertation? And what dissertation was all about? Corail  01:39Yeah, sure. Yeah. So yeah, this title was kind of a humorous reference to an HBR article, which said that basically, many women in male dominated industries feel compelled to play golf to access to the top leadership network. And my research was about women's network, and how can those women network help change the culture of major program, which are notoriously male dominated environments? And I thought it was funny that some women would think like, Okay, I'm gonna play golf, so make the most important contact, and I was like, okay, is this still happening? Do we still need to go on, on the course to get this important contact. So I did this research as part of our MSc in major program management at the Said business school. And it was really like, out of had the like, how out of an impulse after an event that happened during a master's degree. And I don't know if you remember that. But basically, each year, the program gets the opportunity to do a debate at the famous Oxford Union. And during our cohort, we have Ella a brilliant change manager, men's leader, who proposed the motion for that debate, which was around the importance of gender diversity in major programs, team versus versus experience. And we were all quite excited to debate this topic at the Union. But basically, the university got back to us and said, it's too late volatile as a topic. So they brushed it off, and they say, maybe debate another topic. And at the time, I was really shocked. And I think we were all the women of our cohort. I think we were below 30%, maybe around 28% 25% 28% of women in the cohort. And we were all pretty upset about this decision. Because we didn't understand it. We were like this is the Oxford Union the Union debates corruption slavery, things like that. And we can talk about that, you know, gender diversity in major program, but I saw Okay, that's that's say something right about our industry and about the I think the leap that we have to make to make it an OK topic, you know, to talk about that. So we decided to self organize, and to redo that debate, just organized by students. And it was a great, great moment. And I thought, Okay, I want to look deeper into all this EDI questions on major program. So I started like looking a little bit into what the UK Government says about gender diversity in major program. So I looked at the infrastructure and projects authority report at the time. And what I found was quite upsetting when you look at the budget, although major programs represent like astronomical budgets in the UK, but first of all, only 10% last year were classified as likely to be successful, and most of them only had just thought So you think there is an issue they are right. And in the IPA report, they acknowledge that the main issue was with capacity and capability of the teams and of the leadership in the UK. But there was no mention at all about, you know, the fact that we are losing opportunity, because we're not leveraging women's talent pool. And I looked deeper into it. And I looked at the appointment process for senior responsible owners, you know, the leader of this major program. And I found that although there is a mention about diversity, in the report, it's very, like there are no real KPIs or practical ways to do it, or methodologies or anything, and when you look at what they're looking for the SRO usually in, in a biased environment, you would, it's more oriented towards male. So there, we have something like, You should possess strong leadership and decision making skills, that's fine. But when you are in a male dominated industry, leadership resonate with a man. So that's where we'll come to your man. Mind. Sorry. And that's, you know, for example, Bent Flybjerg, called the major program leaders, Master Builder, Master Builder, as a word, I think you will think about a man rather than a woman, just just with that simple words. There are other things that I thought were interesting in the way they said this the label thing, for example, they say, you need to have the experience, the character and personality that are right for the program. And I think this is all well, but it's very subjective, right. And in unbiased environment, it's subject to bias. So I think there are lots of different things like that, that will, that are not not laid out in a way to promote women as leader in that in that environment. And what effectively, when you look at how many leaders of major program in the UK are female, it increased a lot recently, you have about 30% of SROs, that are leaders that are female leaders. But actually, they're only managing about 10 to 15 15%, of the major program budgets. So you realize that they, you're increasing the number of women at the top, but in effect, the budget that they manage is so much smaller than the budget and then manage. And really, in the research, you can see that women's interests are not really accommodated for in major urban transport infrastructure programs. And there is a big gender data gap, which is kind of reinforcing inequalities in this space. And in my opinion, all this is reinforced by the fact that we don't have enough women at the top. So I thought, Okay, how are we changing this. And I looked at what was suggested as the best way to improve gender diversity in leadership roles. And I realized that in research networks are always mentioned as one of the ways and in some research, it's mentioned as a way like a hidden gem. So something that is really useful. But that is not really, that male leaders don't think is really is actually useful. But let me say it's again, because network has shown are shown as hidden gem in the literature, because men leader don't really think that they are that useful when female leaders think that they are really useful. And I thought it's an interesting is one of the most interesting points to look at. Because when you have a strong network, that a lot of the other the issues that you can that you can solve. So for example, if you have a strong network, and you want to have more role models to improve your gender diversity, you can find this through your this network. And so that's how I started looking into it. to remit to continue, Riccardo Cosentino  09:22no, let me let me jump in. So it's interesting. So you talk about network and I understand anecdotally how important they are. Because I've seen my level, you know, when you're recruiting for executive talent, the first thing you do is you go into your network, you know, I mean, the day is when you get a certain level in our organization, and so the seniority, you know, you do post a job, but you typically make sure that people within your network, see the posting and apply and so it is about networking. Because when you hire the certain level you need, you know, the compensation is high, the responsibilities high. So you really want a second opinion even before you start the process. So yeah, I can see our network. Very, very important. So it's interesting that you, you got to that conclusion for your research as well. I guess my question is, does he have to be a woman network or does just have to be a networking, we talked about this in the last podcast as well. As you change as your research actually has a different view than the previous answer you gave me in the previous podcast? Corail  10:37Now, my my, I think, my research says that it does need to be a women's network as in the people who need to, to design it need to be women. But obviously, men need to be involved in it massively. And it's, especially male leaders need to be actively involved in the network and give feedback, etc. But it's all about women designing this network and women using systems thinking to think about their situation and think about how to improve it together. Before you know like talking about it was male leaders and receiving and, and having the kind of reverse mentoring, interaction with male leaders, I think why it's important that it's that we use Women's Network is that obviously, men and women don't benefit from networks in the same way. So in, in the research, in paper, academic papers, you see a lot of research about men network, and what we call weak ties. And I think it's a, you know, Granovetter, who was like one of the first in social science to talk about networks, who said something really funny, he said, It is remarkable that people receive crucial information from individuals whose very existence they have forgotten. So it means like you you get crucial information to get a job from your loose ties for people who are not like in your closest process network, because the information that your best friend knows you already know. But you know, it's the friend of your friend who's going to have the information that you need, or you know, and all this loser ties that you have in your network. And that's really true for men. But for women, research shows that is slightly different. women really need strong ties, as well as weak ties, not only the weak ties on the don't surface, just because they don't have enough of them, and they don't, they can't have as good network with men because you have a homophily bias. So you will want to connect, or you will naturally connect faster with someone who looks like you and who is like you and has the same gender, etc. So there is a sort of imbalance and because we men generally at the top are a bit lonely, a way to, for them to basically catch up with men is to have strong networks, both men network and female network. But when they're alone at the top, they need to develop strong ties with the men who are the top but then if they want to change the system and change, you know, the culture of this environment, then they need to proactively create networks to connect with those women that they wouldn't meet otherwise, and to rethink the way we're doing thing together. I think Riccardo Cosentino  13:40there's a very interesting finding, I'd like to take you back actually, to the beginning of this conversation when you were mentioning about the biases within even the job postings having that that's a very interesting concept. And it's something that I read in literature where even the adjectives used to describe things. You know, I think you mentioned master builder, right? If you think of a master builder, the first thing that comes into mind is a man with a beard. And probably a hat, right, a pointy hat. And so your mind I mean, this is probably deviating a little bit from your research but I think it'd be interesting to know your view is how do you remove that bias when even the who writes the job posting is probably a man or maybe recycling a job posting that was already you already developed by another man so how do we break that cycle? Corail  14:40Yeah, I think I think that's that's a good question. It's really difficult you know, and what is interesting is like some research even show that depending on your language, if you're French for example, or if you're a Italian like you Ricardo, we gender everything is gender, right? We say he we say her and if you say Speak, you know, or if you write, you know, whether it's a woman or a man. Whereas you have some languages that are non that if you say, my friends, you don't know whether it's a man or a woman, etc. And it's funny because it does something that the tricks our brain and induce countries, usually you have less issues with gender inequalities than in the countries that really differentiate in the language, whether you're a man or a woman. And I think there has been a lot of work done on this to try and neutralize as much as possible, the adverts. So that it there is no gender assigned to the advert and the terms employed by the employers are really gender neutral, and try to bring to your mind like a gender neutral candidate. But I think beyond that, some, well, companies like need to improve that the pipeline and try are trying to go directly and look at the you know, train women from from, you know, create specific programs for women from earlier on, so that there are more women in that pipeline, etc. There is something really interesting as well, is that research shows that women will only apply when, you know, they fit all the criteria. And I think you know that whereas men will apply when they feel only 60 I think it's around 60% of the criteria. So I think there is something as well, In that which you see more and more now, it's just a simple line saying, if you don't feel all this criteria, please play anyway. And that that helps you getting more female candidates who will match the male candidates because they will be encouraged to apply no matter you know, even if they feel a bit overwhelmed by the by the description. Riccardo Cosentino  16:47That's very, that's very interesting insight. And I knew of the problem, but I didn't know the solution. So thank you for the firm, thank you for the solution. I will definitely make sure my next job posting has that additional line at the bottom. What What else? What else? Are you finding your research? I think you had 7 to seven points of conclusion, I believe in your research, well, what are the what are the points? What are the conclusion do you draw from from what you researched? Corail  17:19Yeah, so I have seven several layers of finding. So the first the first findings was indeed, like I found seven gender related challenges in major programs. One group of challenges was feeling older, you know, feeling like the oldest gender bias unfair expectation that you find in male dominated industries. And catalyst actually refers this as the double bind dilemma. Expectations put upon women are higher than men, despite lower compensations. Women are perceived as too soft, too tough, never just right. And women leaders are perceived as complete, competent or likeable. But rarely, both of them. That's what catalyst says. And that's what a lot of the women in that I interrogated, told me. And I found that most of the time, the way that they respond to that is with personal ways of responding or personal ability. So some will train super hard will take extra lessons will work so much harder, you know, stay at work, while while their male colleagues are having the drink outside. Some will say, Oh, no, I decided that I have a really strong personality. And I tell off everyone, and I don't care if I don't. Some nice. Some of them just said, like, I just help everyone to make sure that I'm like, you know, it's a, it's all about themselves and trying to transform themselves to manage to navigate those difficulties. And that's why again, I was interested in bringing this back to the network because this is a systemic issue. And you can't fight a systemic issue on your own, or you can but you get into a situation that we have today, which is you just have a few women at the top but the one that they're yet the second issue that they talked about was the boys club. So a lot of them were partner at partner levels in a big corporate companies and said that that they could still feel this boys club that they weren't included in. They were in part of it. And sometimes they found out that, you know, the the other leaders had been out for for some events, and they were not aware of that. So they're still best systems. Some mentioned the anti role models and it's funny because it's also the strongest female leaders. We talked about this about the fact that in their career, they've they've been really defended difficult to work with women. They were in higher level than them at the time. And that is very well researched. And that's a phenomenon that is understood. And that is completely structural, which is the resultant of, if there are not enough women at the top you are made to feel special, unique, etc. And you want to dissociate yourself from the lower class group, let's say, which are women at lower levels. And so that creates a sort of divide between lower levels, women, women and top level women. And it's not predictive. And some, some people think it's a women thing, but it's not a women thing. It's something that is just the result of numbers. And effectively, in every situation where you have groups that are dominant, and groups that dominated people will move from the dominated group, if they join, the dominant group will try to distance themselves from the dominated group. Women talk also about some women choosing respite over ambition. And so it was hard for me to accept because obviously, I feel like I only know really ambitious women around me. But that's what came out in my interviews. Some said, Well, women just don't have the ambition, they just don't want to go to the top. I don't know if this is true, or if it's a resultant of the culture that is difficult for women. And there are some research. And I think it's it's interesting to look into that, which says that in environments that are really inclusive, women and men have the same level of ambition, in environments that are not inclusive, there is a big gap of ambition. So I think it's important to take this into consideration, even if you will feel like it's a bit of a chicken and an egg situation. Riccardo Cosentino  21:56I had a guest on another podcast and we talked we you know, one question I had for her, because it's not an it's, I think, is a known phenomenon. That is this women tend to exit like a career, you know, especially after giving after having children, some don't return to the workforce. And the ones that return to the workforce don't might not have the same career ambition that they had before having children. And I was actually thinking, because, you know, the way even the way I just described is almost like the women made this decision. But I was also I was actually wondering if is if the environment actually is driving women away, rather than the run into the woman making this decision? I mean, you know, it's already hard enough, the environment is really not conducive, are going to do something else with my life. Corail  22:50Absolutely. Yeah. I totally agree with that. And I think this fan phenomenon of women exiting the workforce at mid mid level, is mainly you see it mainly in male dominated industries, such as tech, for example. And I think some women leave because yes, they, you know, they, they have this babies and suddenly maternity like, you know, is this isn't, isn't there, they're cooling and, but a lot of them just leave to go somewhere else to go into a different industry that is much more, you know, flexible, much more inclusive, much more adapted to their needs, as you know, working moms, for example. And I think to me, a way to to solve this issue is really looking at paternity leave. That's That's what that's the only that's the last way to change this, this. This phenomenon. If you if you look at that, and it's live, and you and you increase it and you make sure that men and women are both involved equally, in this early stages in early process of building a little human, anything a little human, you basically involvement and it means that they are much more concerned about later on when they come back to their career about those ideas of flexibility in working of being available to get that kid out of school and working late, you know, later at night, for example, having a different work attended than women. Because at the moment what you're seeing is companies that afford like that are inclusive and propose flexible working in the tech industry. I want to be more inclusive this way. Unfortunately, the what you see is only women take these offers, you know men don't take them. And so then it's badly seen that you're going home to too early and working in the evening at home or it's seen as you're less committed and that creates a whole dynamic. That just reinforces the bias. You know that women are not committed women don't have the same ambition etc. So I think if you make sure that men are as involved as women on the early stage of raising a child, you suddenly men more interested in changing this way of working. And to make it work for everyone. I think Riccardo Cosentino  25:18I have to say, I mean, it's so it's actually, I agree with you that we need to, we need the systems in place to allow men to take paternity leave. But to be honest, in Canada, we have that, and he's now making a lot of a difference. What, uh, what, you know, what I'm noticing is, is the societal pressure and the societal norms that really need to be changed. I always say, why is always the woman taking the 12 months off in Canada, you get 12 months, right, you can get up to 12 months. And and I think the policy is that it doesn't have to be the woman, right? I mean, it the paternity leave is leave of absence. And especially public sector employers have very, very accommodating terms and irrespective of that is always the worry, you know, I understand the woman has to take the time off after childbirth to recover. But you know, after four or five months, does this really have to be the woman's their home white? Why is the man cannot stay at home? And I think it's societal pressure, I think there's a big component of societal pressure. Corail  26:23Absolutely, I would be I would be in favor and the the podcast is thinking really radical, but I would be in favor of, you know, in some countries, If men don't take the paternity leave, they get fined. And that motivates you to actually take that time off. And I think, obviously, yeah, if you have the option, but it's not mandatory. Because we're in a society that's not there yet. It's obviously it's, it's badly seen by your colleagues, you again, you look less committed, you look and so you don't take it. So yeah, as you said, the system needs to change. Riccardo Cosentino  27:02So okay, so we started the conversation with the title we dissertations, which was Do woman need to play golf in order to lead major programs was the answer. Corail  27:12Yes, they still need to play golf to live major program 100%. Unfortunately, we're not in a perfect world yet. And at the moments, women have to work harder on their networks to get the same benefits as men. And the way to work on your network and break this boys club that we're talking about is being there being on the field. Obviously, if you hate playing golf, don't totally send to me don't do that, if it's not that bad for you just yeah, get the motivation go on the green. Riccardo Cosentino  27:46I think I think use golf as a figure of speech, but it's, you know, it's, Corail  27:51yeah, get it means get out there. And if we want to talk if we want to go back a bit more into women's networks, and how they should be formed and shaped, when we talked about them with my interviewees, I had really two different narratives about them, I had some really positive narrative narratives. And I found that they can be a way of conduit to reveal gender bias issues to yourself to others, they can be a way to receive and give support to other women. They can be a way to learn and teach etc. They can be a way to, to inspire other people, other women. But mainly and more strategically, they can be a way to have a voice. So have you know a bit of a strategic impact on the leadership team of your organization. And they can be a way to where they can define and design an inclusive workplace. So as I said, women need to think about what is the like, what is the system we want to design to create a more inclusive environment, environment, but I also found out that there are also a lot of negative views about women's network and a lot of my interviewee mentioned that there are serious issues with women networks, which are sometimes unfit for purpose. They said like it can be a manifest some sense, you know, and for them it's not conductive of anything if you're just like, or sometimes it's just unstable because it's it's on the shoulders of one volunteer and doesn't last Some said they was it could be hypocrite if it's used as lip service but your company as a marketing tool, it just don't feel like it's actually useful is just like the company trying to to show that they're more intrusive without doing the work. Sometimes they said it could be biased and that goes with the with the idea That's, if you're if you're promoting meritocracy, for example, through your network, when you know that meritocracy is not the issue there, that you know, that's not helpful. Or if you're trying to throw the network shape your team so that they fit into a mold, then you're not leveraging your diversity, right? So it's not useful, either. Some study could be pernicious or even risky. And that is because they felt like sometimes there could be a backlash, you know, men feeling like, Oh, why are we not included in this? Why? Why are you rejecting us? And that can create some tensions that are not conductive of anything positive and risky. Sometimes if you're seen as like the leader of a movement or of protests in your company, right, at some point, you know, it's not good for your career, you can be blocked just because you're too vocal or too militant. So the idea of that the research was like, How can we focus on the positive impact the women's network can have? And how can we try and reduce those negative effects. And I think, to really make those networks strategic and interesting, basically, you have, you need to almost use the rules of change management, and make it a full like enterprise. And so I think if violet listeners, if there are four things that I'd like them to remember, for their networks, is, first one, the professional women network should be led by women, and mainly designed by women, supported by change consultants, maybe to help them design the change. But they need to take ownership of this network. And some women will tell you, I Yeah, but you're just adding a lot more work on to our work. And it's, it's another assignment on top of all our assignments, and I totally agree, but I see it as a necessary evil, let's say to get to a better a better environment. And they need to create sessions where they use system thinking, I think system thinking is very important, because it's a very practical tool, it helps you you can create maps, that shows the issues of a system that you can then share with the leadership teams, you know, you can bring your map that you've worked on in a session, and you can say, look, with Matt, the issues there. And here are the intervention that we think will improve that system or it or change or resolve, at low at low cost or at low budget, you can do this and that and look how it impacts our system, the system. And I think this is a powerful tool, a tool that needs to be leveraged to induce networks. So that's step one. Step two, is that as we discussed, male leaders need to be actively involved. And feedback session must be organized to present how like how all these measures will benefit not only women, but also the organization as a whole. And it's, it creates trust. And it's it's good to communicate like what you're doing. But also it helps women having a bigger purpose than just themselves if they see themselves that, that what they're doing is benefiting the you know, the organization itself, they will themselves be much more buying it, you know, they will want to do it more. Step three, is that you need to use reverse mentoring. For the senior leaders, I think it's it's, it's really important that senior leaders get a better understanding of the battles that women are facing in the major program industry, and that they themselves become female advocates like you are Ricardo. And this is like basically giving effective training to male leaders so that they understand the issue. And they and yeah, they become allies. And the final step is that results of those networks need to be properly measured with inclusion indicators like KPIs, etc, rather than just number of memberships. You know, we don't care if you're, if your network has 15 members, where we one is like, what are the results of it? What are you producing? What is the impact? How is it measured, etc. And then you need to communicate this results like really enthusiastically, via maybe professional communication campaign, and that you need to get obviously this report of your organization for that. But I think the more effective the communication, and the more you can see effective results, the better. Riccardo Cosentino  34:40Well, it makes it sound so easy, just four easy steps to solve all the equity and diversity issues that we have in the industry. Corail  34:50I'd really want to see it, you know, try it out. Try it and test it and then we can improve on that as well. You know, Riccardo Cosentino  35:00I think there's a good movement. I'm optimistic, and particularly not very optimistic. But I'm optimistic that as an industry, we are trying to move in the right direction. I think the next so well, first of all, the problem is being understood, accepted that there is a problem. I mean, probably 20 years ago, there wasn't even an acceptance or recognition that we had a problem. Atleast Now we know that we have a problem because we don't have the diversity because we have established that diversity is important for business. So I think there is a will. And it's important people like you doing research about how to do it. Because you know, one thing is to, to admit that we have an issue, but then how do we solve it? And having a systematic review, and research done on the topic is going to improve the way we go about solving this issue? Corail  35:55I hope so. Yeah. Thank you. Riccardo Cosentino  35:59Okay, so I think we covered what I wanted to cover today in the podcast, I was really looking forward to this. I really, truly enjoy your dissertation. I'm not sure if listeners are interested in seeing your dissertation. Are you able to see somewhere, have you published? Are you going to publish? Or can they just reach out? Corail  36:21Yeah, we will definitely trying to publish it with my supervisor Chantal Cantera. Lee, who is amazing and amazing professor at Cranfield University, and who's been supporting me throughout the entire process and is pushing me to get another updated version of the reserves so that we can finally get it published in a journal. So hopefully, very soon. You'll see it, I'll share it. Yeah. Riccardo Cosentino  36:47Perfect. And I will provide updates to the to the listeners if and when you publish, actually, when you publish. Corail  36:54Thank you. And it's on it. Riccardo Cosentino  36:57Yeah, I mean, you're you're being it's being recorded. You're being recorded. You're going to be publishing so having we now have witnesses to well, Corail, thank you very much for joining me today. Really enjoyed our conversations. And hopefully I'll see you again on a future episode of navigating major programs. Corail  37:18Thank you so much Riccardo   Riccardo Cosentino  37:20By now. That's it for this episode on navigating major problems. I hope you found today's conversation as informative and thought provoking as I did. If you enjoyed this conversation, please consider subscribing and leaving a review. I would also like to personally invite you to continue the conversation by joining me on my personal LinkedIn at Riccardo Cosentino. Listening to the next episode, we will continue to explore the latest trends and challenges in major program management. Our next in depth conversation promises to continue to dive into topics such as leadership risk management, and the impact of emerging technology in infrastructure. It's a conversation you're not going to want to miss. Thanks for listening to navigate the major programs and I look forward to keeping the conversation going                                         Hashtags: #GenderChallenges #WomensNetworks #MajorPrograms #Inclusivity #Diversity #EmpowerWomen #Leadership #EqualityAtWork #CareerAdvancement #SystemicSolutions #WomenInTech #GenderDiversity #CorporateCulture #ProfessionalNetworks #Advocacy #GenderEquality #BreakingBarriers #WomenEmpowerment #WorkplaceDynamics #GenderBalance #GenderChallenges #WomensNetworks #MajorPrograms #Inclusivity #Diversity #GenderBias #Leadership #SystemicSolutions #CareerAdvancement #WorkplaceEquality #ChangeManagement #GenderDiversity #WomenInTech #GenderEquality #ProfessionalNetworks #WorkplaceDynamics #WomenLeadership #CorporateCulture #GenderBalance #Advocacy Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

Okay, so today we're getting real. Recently, a coworker shared with me how her friend has long struggled with working as a nurse while also having ADHD. This friend was lucky enough to find a position at a hospital that truly supports and embraces her, but many are not as lucky. And although ADHD is commonplace in the healthcare space, its challenges are often stigmatized and swept under the rug - creating an epidemic of shame that can feel isolating and overwhelming. After all, imagine what it feels like to constantly help others when you yourself are struggling everyday? To help shed light on this subject, we reached out to an Executive Function coach of ours, Beth Malvino, who coaches two social workers, Lina and Cassie. Together, they bravely shared their stories about the difficulties they've faced in managing their own executive dysfunction while supporting others' mental wellbeing. Their stories are powerful and filled with important wisdom around the unique challenges that healthcare workers with ADHD encounter and what can be done to overcome them. We explore self-care, the limitations for neurodiverse people within the systems in which we work and live, and combating that negative narrative that runs through the heads of many people with ADHD. I am sure that anyone listening who has Executive function challenges and works in healthcare spaces will really relate to much of what you'll hear on this episode. NOTE: There is some very light swearing in this episode. If you've got any young kids with you who happen to be super interested in the impact of ADHD on healthcare workers, you might want to give them a heads up.Finally, I also wanted to share that we have a podcast email now! You can reach out to me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. Send me your episode topic ideas! I'd love to hear from you.In the meantime, here are the show notes from today's episode: Tips For Nurses Managing Their Attention Deficit Disorder:https://blog.diversitynursing.com/blog/tips-for-nurses-managing-their-attention-deficit-disorderA Day in the Life of a Healthcare Professional with Executive Function Challenges:https://www.worksmartcoaching.com/blog/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-healthcare-professional-with-executive-function-challenges8 Tips For How To Thrive As A Nurse With ADHD | NurseJournal:https://nursejournal.org/articles/how-to-thrive-as-a-nurse-with-adhd/ADHD - Workplace Issues:https://chadd.org/for-adults/workplace-issues/Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18Before I tell you about today's episode, I wanted to share that we have a podcast email now! You can reach out to me at podcast at beyondbooksmart.com Send me your episode topic ideas. I'd love to hear from you. Hannah Choi 00:33Okay, so today we're getting real, not like we haven't been real in the past. Talking about EF challenges is very real. But we're getting extra real today. Recently, our podcast team was having a conversation about how having ADHD impacts people at work. And someone shared that a friend of theirs is a nurse who has ADHD. And she had finally found a position at a hospital that truly supports and embraces her ADHD and all. We wanted to explore the idea of holding a job where you're constantly giving, giving, giving, and often supporting people with EF challenges. While also managing your own EF challenges. We reached out to a coach of ours Beth Malvino, who works as a coach for two social workers, Lina and Cassie. They joined me and Beth to share their stories about the difficulties they face in managing their own executive dysfunction, while supporting others. They'll provide insights into the unique challenges that healthcare workers with ADHD encounter and the work they do to overcome them. You'll hear Beth offer her valuable and rather touching perspective on Lina and Cassie's EF journeys. All three of them share the tools and strategies that Lina and Cassie have found helpful in supporting their executive function challenges. In addition, we explore self care, the limitations for neurodiverse people within the systems in which we work and live and combating that negative narrative that runs through the heads of many people with ADHD. I am sure that anyone listening today who has EF challenges and works in healthcare spaces will really relate to much of what you'll hear today. Hannah Choi 02:29And just to note that there is some light swearing in this episode. If you've got any young kids with you who happened to be super interested in the impact of ADHD on health care workers, you might want to give them a heads up. Okay, now on to the show. Hannah Choi 02:46Hi, y'all. I learned that from Lina. Lina and Cassie and Beth are joining me today to talk about executive function challenges for people who work in healthcare spaces. And Lina is from originally from Texas. And so we were talking about y'all, so I thought I'd try that out today. So, would you guys, would you like to introduce yourselves? Lina, do you want to start? Lina 03:13Sure. Um, hi, I'm Lina. As Hannah said, I'm originally from Texas, but I currently live in Chicago. I work in social work on getting my master's in social work with the concentration in mental health. But I have some background in public administration and policy work, particularly within criminal justice spaces, or like to say the criminal system of injustice just because that's what we have right now. And it's, uh, you know, I work within the realm of mental health and people who've been impacted by that system. So yeah, it's really great to be here with all of you. I'm excited to chat.Hannah Choi 04:01Thank you, and Cassie.Cassie 04:05Hello. My name is Cassie. I am a school social worker slash guidance guidance adjustment counselor. And I don't work at a typical school. I work at a therapeutic day school. So my kiddos have they range our youngest right now is seven. Our oldest is 20. And they range from all kinds of mental health diagnoses trauma backgrounds, emotional behavioral disabilities. So it's funny thinking about kind of our our topic of today is you know, having EF concerns while working in in healthcare but it's like I have EF concerns and I'm surrounded by children who also are very dysfunctional when it comes to EF and also kind of in general. Um, so that was kind of funny to think about that that juxtaposition. Hannah Choi 05:04So yeah, and I really want to get into that today because that is you two are not the only people out there who work in that work and also have executive function challenges. So I'm sure that there are other people who will hear this conversation and be really be able to resonate with or relate to relate with what you have to say. And last, we have Beth, who is, well, Beth, you explain how you know Lina and Cassie, and what your role is in, in the world? Beth Malvino 05:40Sure, sure. So hi, I'm Beth. I've been a licensed clinical social worker for more than 20 years, I have worked in lots of different healthcare settings, mostly hospitals, with different populations of people. I've been in psychiatry, medicine, hospice oncology, I had my own private practice for a while, I ran virtual support groups for grief and divorce during the pandemic. And now I am an executive function coach at Beyond BookSmart. I currently work with Lina and Cassie, they've been my clients for some time now. And so I'm really going to enjoy talking to them today, because they've had such an amazing journey. So I'm looking forward to sharing that and hearing their perspectives from that.Hannah Choi 06:32Yeah, great. I can't wait to hear this too. And Lina, and Cassie, why did you seek out executive function coaching?Lina 06:43Yeah, so I sought out executive function coaching, because I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult in 2021. So it was like a year after the pandemic had started. And I didn't start coaching until last year 2022, like I had waited a while. Just because you know, when you're an adult, and you get diagnosed with something that you've had your whole life and things didn't make sense. And you finally got that, I like to think of it as like the lens that you can see through your life and look at all the pieces that didn't fit together. And now you have this lens of information, that you could see more clearly, all of the challenges and triumphs and really weird stuff in your life. It, you know, it can take a while to kind of like, figure out what you need and unmask yourself. And so I started coaching last year, because I really, you know, I read all the books about ADHD and what it's like, but to put things into practice is what really was hard for me identifying how my brain worked and trying out different things, I didn't even know where to start to do that. And so that's why I sought out coaching just because, you know, putting, like, you can rationally in your head know, all these things, you know, read all the books, but it's a whole other thing to put what you've learned into practice. And that's why I sought out coaching. And it's, you know, greatly improved my mental health to even though it's not a mental health service. You know, it's, you know, just being able to put things in practice and learn more and get more information has improved my anxiety a lot just because I know I have different tools and different strategies than I did before. And so yeah, it's it's worked in conjunction with therapy already. That has improved a lot of things in my life and has helped make my work. You know, both in and out of school and in and out of social work a lot better for me.Cassie 09:10So I went, I think I think we started in winter, like December 2021. I think, recently, I'm like, Oh, well, I have a different insurance. Like, let's see if there is a psychiatrist nearby that can like assess me and like, take over my meds and whatnot. So I'm actually hopefully going to be starting that soon. Which would be great. Because there's a number of things, not just the attention and focus and whatnot. But there's other things that I'm like, Oh, I think I want somebody who knows stuff about this to help me figure things out. And that's kind of the same thinking that got me here as well. I sought out coaching because I was miserable. I was As I felt like I was drowning in work. And I couldn't kind of wrap my head around it because I have always been a smart kid, I've never had to work too hard at school. And even like college was mostly fine grad school was mostly fine. But when I started my first big girl salary job with my MSW, I couldn't manage it. Like I knew how to do the tasks that I was supposed to do. That's, that wasn't the issue, the issue was actually just getting them done, starting them and finishing them. So I was always behind on things, I was staying really late at work. I had already gone to my supervisor who is amazing. And she, you know, had given me some suggestions for what works for her and, you know, tried to get me a new planner, and we're like, move my schedule around to see if that helped. And so it's probably been a good more than six months that I'd been like, really aware of the fact that I was just very unhappy at work. And then I finally was like, a kind of, I had to bite the bullet because again, like, I'm used to just coasting through things. I'm used to just being successful with not a lot of effort. And to be like, Okay, no, like, I need help. I'm struggling really, really bad. It got to the point where I was like waking up in the morning and hoping that I would get a text message that say that there was an actual gas leak on campus. And so I didn't have to go in like, because I worked at a residential campus. And so there were no, like, there were no days off. Like it was Monday through Friday, no matter what, no matter if there was a blizzard, no matter if it was a national holiday, like we, we went in. So yeah, so I was I was very, very unhappy and was like, alright, like, it's not, it's not a matter of not knowing how to do it. It's just actually getting my work done. It's not not not knowing how to do it, it's being able to make it happen. So that's why Yeah, and Lina, you said that it's not a it's not a mental health service. But like, honestly, right now, I feel like I have three different therapists in some way, because I have my actual individual therapist that I speak with, like once or twice a month. And then I have my supervisor at work, who is amazing, and supportive and wonderful. And then I also have Beth, and it's like, it's Yeah, I feel like having all of these supports in my quarter has been like, really, really helpful. Lina 12:36So yeah, I, I want to affirm that, like, I know, you know, they're supposed to be different difference between coaching and therapy. But there have been several times where Beth and I and I'm sure it's the same way for you Cassie word, the coaching session does kind of turn intoCassie 12:54Oh, yeah. Therapy. For five sessions, I was just like, crying to her. Like, I don't know why I do this. I'm Yeah. This is hard to like, why is it so hard to just type words into my computer,Lina 13:12Or even like, when the big feelings show up, because you have some big feelings about something and you're just crying about it, you're just like, I don't know how to emotionally regulate.Hannah Choi 13:22It shows you how closely connected our emotions are with our executive functions, and how it is you cannot separate them. And, and so it's really great that you're that you're working with a therapist as well, because then you're able to take things that you learn in each and, and bring them together. And it was also recommend that to my clients, who aren't seeing therapists already.Cassie 13:50It was also really important to me as I was in the process of like, signing up that like, you know, I am, I am a, an MSW, I, you know, I have my license, I like I want to work with somebody who has similar training, because like, I feel like, you know, I kind of like I've seen behind the curtain, like, I know, like, you know, I'm aware of the different theories and whatever and, and, like, I wanted to work with somebody else who also had that same background.Beth Malvino 14:23I have to say that, I think, and I was thinking about this last night when I was sort of preparing for this podcast today, you know, what, what has been really important in in the coaching relationship with with both of you, and I think there's been an element of relatability that I maybe didn't realize how important that was until we all started working together. Because I'm a social worker. I mean, there's there's that capacity to understand even though we We've all done different things like I've never done any of the types of roles that you both are in. But yet I can still empathize because I know what it's like to have to chart, you know, 50 notes in a week and have to, you know, feel to feel like there's 1000 emails that haven't been responded to, and just the whole concept of giving so much of yourself, because that's what we do, you know, we're helpers, we're healers, and feeling as if there's just nothing left, at the end of the day. And when you throw in things like executive font dysfunction and time distortion on top of that, it's just I can only imagine how difficult that must be. Because I know that I have felt that way, in lots of work settings, and I don't have executive dysfunction. And so I can only imagine how difficult that must have been. So I think there's definitely the the idea of being empathetic to that I think, has really helped us to bond as coach and client. And that's been an important part of the process.Hannah Choi 16:12Can we explore that a little, the idea of what you just said about how you have to give yourself all day to people who really, really, really need you. And also, you're giving yourself as a person who is struggling with executive function. And you're likely supporting someone who is also struggling with exec executive function. So how do you like what does that look like? For you? What is? What is? Is that a struggle? And when what does it look like?Cassie 16:47For me, it looks like being transparent, to some degree with my students, there have been so many times where, because in my role, I go into our classrooms, and I lead like group counseling. So we right now we're working on the zones of regulation. But what it looks like, sometimes for me is, like, kind of being explicit, and like, oh, like, that's a really good question, kiddo. But like, I you note, you know, that I want to hang out and chat with you about anything under the sun, but like, right now, I need to focus on finishing this lesson. Or like a kiddo will ask them like, Hey, Miss, can you know, can you come check in with me later? Or can we work on this thing? And like just being very explicit, like, Yes, I will try to remember or I will write it down. But like, like, just kind of like being honest about like, I this is important, and I want to do it, but like, if an emergency comes up, or if whatever, you know, it may not happen, and asking the kids like, hey, help me remember that next time we have group I want to do XYZ? Or, if you see me in the hallway, ask me about this, and then I can let you know when I find out the answer. So it's kind of in some ways, it's it's being honest, and kind of modeling for the kids. And then and then it's also working with my colleagues. Kind of in a more intentional way, also, one of the big benefits that I've noticed and started coaching is just the change in my kind of thinking patterns or my habits. Right now, I am very lucky that I have an awesome clinical intern who is working on her MSW as well. And so oftentimes, what we'll do is, she'll get there in the morning, and I'll be you know, answering emails or whatever. And we'll kind of sit down and like have like a kind of a planning session. We're like, Alright, so today for group, we're going to work on this thing. I don't think Anthony class has finished their worksheet, so we'll finish that up for them. But Dubois class, they didn't finish. So we're gonna move on to this one, we were kind of just like, make a plan for the day. And then we also were like, Alright, so after groups, like what's our priority, like, we really need to finish this assessment, we really need to finish planning for the next two groups. Like it's been really helpful for me to have that conversation with somebody else. until like, right, these are our priorities for the day. That's been something that's been really helpful for me because it's, you know, I can have that conversation with myself in my head, but it's just it there's no external accountability, which was another thing that I really gained benefit from. So it's, what it looks like is modeling it for the kids and then practicing myself, even when I'm not with the kids.Hannah Choi 19:42That's awesome. And then building in the accountability of having a partner and advocating for yourself that you need that partner and that you you know this like that. building that relationship with her I'm sure is invaluable for both of you. Yeah, what about you, Lina?Lina 20:00Um, so there's a few components for how I deal with it in my work. So right now I am working in substance use just to give some background, I work with adults in the west side of Chicago, who, you know, for various reasons, have used substances to cope with their life and their realities and their pain. And, you know, when I work with a bunch of people like this, especially people who are, you know, mandated to treatment by the justice system, or the criminal system of injustice, system, I, you know, struggle a lot with and just not even that, you know, I don't know how many people are aware of how recovery spaces are, but they're pretty rigid, you know, if you're in recovery homes, there's very, like I work with a lot of patients who are in recovery homes, and the rigidity of certain recovery homes just gives no flexibility for a client to have autonomy in their life and in their treatment, and in their program. And I take a harm reduction approach, where, you know, we look at recovery, and look at how do we manage reducing unnecessary harm without trying to eradicate the issue? Right? Because we know it's going to exist, we know it's going to, you know, it has existed for centuries, you know, people have been using substances for centuries, but how do we reduce unnecessary harm that can come from doing that. And what that also means is defining recovery, and however, the individual defines it, right. And sometimes, if a person comes in with a very rigid idea of what recovery can be, and trying to fit themselves into a box, that doesn't necessarily work for them. I resonate with that, because I tried to do that, my whole life, right, with having undiagnosed ADHD, I was just coping all the time and trying to fit myself into boxes that didn't necessarily fit for me, but I was working so hard. And so yeah, I was just working so hard for so long, in spaces that were never meant to fit me. Right. And so a lot of what I've done with clients, and with patients is just like a lot of validation of being like, yeah, this it's hard. There's no rulebook to how life could be. But we have all these expectations within these systems that we're in to meet, unfortunately, and I'm a very systems based person, I always have been, because I've always noticed, that's like one of my ADHD superpowers, I would say is, I've always noticed how systems really suck. And they don't allow people to have choice and autonomy, to do things that is actually better for them, you know what I mean? And so that's how I see it a lot with my clients and with my patients. And even for me, I have to, you know, I'm still in graduate school, I have all these expectations to meet for school, I have all these expectations to meet within my clinical internship, which is doing the substance use work. And one of the things that Beth and I did was, we broke down all the things that I had to do, like we literally wrote it out, being like, you have to do, CSRS T PRs, individual sessions, group therapy sessions, individual notes, group notes, case management, notes, housing notes, all these things. And when you really break it down, it's like, all these expectations, and for what, right? And for what, it's just so exhausting. And so I, you know, I even started doing that with my patients being like, alright, let's look at your recovery program and being like, look at all these expectations, and you're exhausted, like, there are hard things that add to your life, and there's hard things that don't. And then there's hard things that are a little bit of both, and how do we recognize those things that do add to our life? And try to minimize the things that don't and start making things that work better for you. So it's, yeah, I do it, you know, a lot of validation at my work and my job, especially with the clients who were within the criminal system of injustice, because those expectations are just out of pocket. I'm just like, Why does this have to exist this way, especially for this person that already has so many different systems working against them. And in a lot of ways, we as people with executive functioning challenges, work within systems that are working against us too. And that's really challenging and really hard. Yeah.Hannah Choi 24:56And something that I do I just this talk about systems is so interesting because as a person who has executive function challenges, I mean, all people need to build systems for themselves that they can rely on. And when you are a person with executive function challenges, your system is probably going to look really different, and not fit in well, to the existing systems that are already there, which I think is pretty much what you were just saying Lina. And, and it's, I don't know, it's just interesting that, that, that systems can be critical for success. And they can be really limiting when there is no flexibility. And there's no consideration for the variety of needs, that that people have. And that's what's so beautiful about taking the time and, and, and taking the time. That's what's so beautiful about discovering the aspects of yourselves that are strong, and that you can rely on, and how you can use those to support the areas that are that are more challenging for you, and how you're taking, taking the time to really think about it and to really say like, what do I need? And how can I create that for myself. And when you are spending your whole day, supporting other people and giving and giving and giving and giving? It's probably pretty difficult to stop and just really wait, why do I need? And how do I support myself in this time? So do you what do you do for yourself to recover from a really difficult day or manage executive function? I mean, other than, like what you shared already, like is there maybe self care that you do to, you know, to alleviate some of that pressure that I'm sure that you feel, trying to fit into these systems that that are there.Cassie 27:15Something that I have been doing, that my whole family has been doing, ever since the pandemic started. My, my mom, my dad, and my older sister, and I, just the four of us in my immediate nuclear family. We have weekly family video calls. And that actually evolved from way back when the pandemic very first started, my sister reached out to us and was like, I'm really worried about the state of the world can we just do a video call just to check in with each other. And then we really enjoyed it. So we did again, the next night, and the next night, and the next night. So we we I talked to my parents and my sister every single day for, I don't know, four or five months of the pandemic. And then, you know, once I finished grad school, and once I moved out here for my first big girl salary job, we did cut it down to twice a week. And now we're down to once a week. But because we had that kind of foundation of updating each other on every part of our days, because we talked every single day, we just have a much, I think a much stronger relationship and much more open and comfortable relationship just has a whole family unit. And so we talk about a lot of things like we are much more open about our mental health, about our needs. You know, sometimes my sister will talk about how she, you know, I'm feeling really down today, like my depression is pretty bad. Or, you know, we'll joke with mom about how like mom, like, you have undiagnosed ADHD, even though it's sometimes in a joking way, we're much more open about our own struggles and mental health needs and everything. And I think that's been instrumental. For me, I think it's been really, really helpful, just personally, but I also think that it's improved all of our lives just to have that regular communication and that comfort. So for me, family is a really big part of my self care. I know that that's not the case for everyone. For other for some people, like family creates stress, and that's totally valid. But for me, family time has been a really big part of my self care.Hannah Choi 29:33And hopefully for people that sort of their chosen family can step in, and Lina What about you? What do you do to take care of yourself?29:40Man, we're trying to figure that out to be honest. One of the things that my ADHD loves to do is not let me recognize certain bodily cues like eating because I get so hyper focused during the day am my work that I forget to eat, I legitimately don't get those cues to eat. And then it isn't until like three, maybe sometimes two o'clock to three in the afternoon and I'm like, why can't I focus? Oh, you haven't eaten since seven this morning. Like, like I like, it's those things that, you know, really begin to challenge. So lately, self care has been trying to eat more. And just trying to, you know, find certain foods or certain things that I will eat during the day or have access to or that is easier to manage and sort of time myself. That's been hounding me to set an alarm for lunch. And so yeah, like, that's sort of what comes to mind immediately. But, you know, I think for me, too, lately, I've been recognizing how I can't just push through certain tedious tasks anymore. Like I have to, like, in order for me to do the really hard thing that my brain really don't want to do, I got to do something fun before I do it, you know, so I gotta like, read a chapter of the book that I'm reading, or watch a stupid YouTube video or, you know, do something that I actually like doing before I get into this thing, or use the thing that I really like doing as the reward for doing the really hard thing. So I been trying to give myself space to have more fun. And to have more rest and play, and silliness and laughter and being with people that, you know, make me laugh and understand my humor, because as social workers, we got to very wild spectrums of humor. When you're with people who get that humor, it is the best, it's like wild, you would think work notes or need to go be hospitalized or something. But it's like really a good time being with the people that get it and understand the type of work that we're dealing with all day, every day, because it gets really hard. Like, I'm not going to sugarcoat and say that our jobs are easy, because they're not. And it's very, you know, we're in a profession that is severely undervalued. So we have to be very intentional about taking care of ourselves to deal with said systems. And I'm trying to be a lot better about that I will work working on it. It's always a work in progress, but it's a lot better than what it used to be.Hannah Choi 32:49So we're all work in progress, it works in progress. I just, I just had a wonderful experience. On the other night, I got to go to a presentation by a clinical psychologists called Dr. Allison Roy, and she's out in New Hampshire. And she she works she works in with from a perspective of trauma informed care. And she did a presentation on the brain which I'm a total nerd about so I was just like on the edge of my seat the whole night. And she talked about about how we can get out of our the fear center part of our brain like the you know, like the the fight and flight and freeze part and up into our prefrontal cortex where all of our executive function skills are so our thinking brain so we can use that. And she was talking about how this idea of flocking and how flocking is when you you have a flock you have you spend time with people who get you who understand you, you have social connection and and when you do that you're able to nourish the and support your limbic system the emotional part of your brain which really allows you to access your your prefrontal cortex and your thinking part. And she was just talking about there is so much value in finding a flock and so whatever your flock is, like you said, Cassie, your family is your flock and you get so much value from that and Lina, your you know, your fellow social workers who really get you and get where you're coming from. And so I'm just so glad to hear that you both put that in as an value that as part of your self care because according to the brain research, it's really what you do need to do so. And the other thing that she talked about Lina and I'm so glad you mentioned this was the idea of play. And she said it is so important. Why do we stop playing why do we stop having fun and, and and play is a huge component of As our mental health and of just feeling better about ourselves and, and enjoying our lives, and in staying out of that, like the the kind of like, primal part of our brain, and we're able to stay up higher in the in the thinking part. And so it's just glad to hear that you're too you're doing that too.Beth Malvino 35:22I wanted to just piggyback on what what you just said, because it really resonated with me that, you know, we get so what, regardless of whether or not you have any kind of diagnosable executive function challenges, I think we all get bogged down with things that we think we have to plan, you know, we have work and or, you know, parenting responsibilities or things that we have to do in life that we feel like we have to plan these things. And I think for a lot of us, we forget to plan fun. And sort of bringing that to the to the conscious and really, scheduling fun, I think is so important. And I talk about that a lot with with clients, because I find that they get very wrapped up as we all do and the things that they have to do, and not necessarily the things that they like to do.Hannah Choi 36:25Yeah, and I just I did that a few years ago to it all started where I, my sister in law wanted to go in the water and it was so cold. And I was like I don't want to go in the water is too cold. And she's like, come on just fun. Like, yeah, I need to have more fun. So I decided to try to be a lot more intentional about that. And I and I have noticed a big difference. My kids think I'm crazy. But grownups should not be having that much fun. But I think it really helps. That's a big part of my self care.36:57So I I mean, Lina and I talked about our self care. But I want to hear about from from you and Beth as well.Hannah Choi 37:05That's you want to go first? Oh, wow.Beth Malvino 37:08Self. Yeah, I mean, self care, is something that does have to be intentional for me, I have to remember to do it. Because just, you know, like everyone else, I have things that I have to do. And I try to get those things done. And there are days that go by where I haven't done any self like true self care. And I kind of get mad at myself, like, why didn't I you know, take a moment. And so I do try to be more intentional about the kind of self care that I do. So, recently, we took a trip to Florida, and that we were in Orlando, and they have these electric scooters that you can just kind of, you know, zip around town on and I've never done anything like that. And my kids who are you know, they're teenagers. And so there used to scootering around on different types of machinery. They were all just like jumping on and whizzing down the block. And I was almost like, oh, that I can't do that. Like that's not for me. That's that's not like, that's not okay, why why would I do that I'm not a kid. And then I kind of, I kind of forced myself to do it. The best? Yeah, I had the wind in my hair. And I was flying down the sidewalk and like ringing the bell. And people were stuck on the side. And I felt like a kid again. And that was a very intentional choice that I made to do that. And I'm glad I did it. Now I have those memories too. And now maybe I'm more likely to try that again in a different settings. So I really do try to try to make it an intent, like an intentional decision. Like today, I'm going to do something it doesn't even have to be big enough to be going to a spa like I'm not going to do. But it might be it's a really beautiful day. I'm going for a walk today. I'm just going to make sure that I get some sunshine in today. And I do try to make that intentional kind of schedule that around the other things that I had to plan for that day.Hannah Choi 39:30Yeah, that what I do for myself, though, sort of like main Self Care Act is similar in that I, I practice the strategies that I that I know work for me when I'm in a moment where I'm really having a hard time. So like I have some anxiety so I I make myself practice breathing when I'm not in an anxious state. So that when I am in that state, it's much easier for me to access that and I also Have, I'm working really hard on my negative self talk and, and so I try very hard to talk positively to myself when I'm just doing regular stuff. Like, like celebrating these like super small wins, it doesn't have to be anything big, but just practicing that, that more supportive talk to myself really helps so that when I have made a decision that I'm not happy with or something happens, that didn't go as I expected, it does come a little bit more easily to me to say something nice to myself instead of saying something mean. So that's the practice of it when I don't need it is is a huge thing for me. And then also, spending time with other people is absolutely number like probably like other than the practice, that's the most important thing for me. And exercise to I need to exercise if I don't exercise I always like why do I feel like crap this week? Oh, because I did not prioritize that. So yeah. Thank you for asking Cassie. It's a it's a it's a conversation that more people should have. Because in, I think because in having those conversations, you can really learn a lot from what other people do for their self care. And it doesn't always look like going and getting a massage. Like if I go get a massage, I feel guilty that I went and got a massage. And so now I don't feel good at all. It's yeah, it doesn't always look like bubble baths or whatever. So yeah.41:27Yeah, like I just wanted to piggyback off of that is just like, lately, I've been trying to intentionally remember that I can do things because I can like, and not because I have to justify it. Like, that's been really, you know, I've always felt like I've had to justify everything I do, like justify a feeling or justify needing to do this or just doing that. And I'm just like, No, I can go get an ice cream cake. Because I can I'm an adult, I could make that decision if I wanted to. Like if I want to, and I don't need to justify it, if I want a massage, I don't need to justify getting a massage. If I want to do this, I don't have to, I could do it because I can and not because I have to justify it. So I've been trying really hard to do that more often. And like, you know, if I want to make a nice meal for myself, I can do that and not feel like oh, you have to do it. Because you have to have a reason like, No, I don't have to have a reason all the time to do the thing I want to doHannah Choi 42:31just giving yourself permission to just do it.Beth Malvino 42:35Because you deserve it. Yeah. And that's part of42:40that's another hard part to get your wrap your head around. Because, you know, when you're diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, you know, you were invalidated a lot as a child for things that, you know, you needed. But, you know, by, you know, oh, you're just too sensitive, or Oh, you're just too much or, or you're just this or just that and like, you know, going through this process of like, No, you do deserve good things you do deserve the things you need to play, it gets okay to have your needs met. That's, that's been a big part of this whole journey, I would say,Beth Malvino 43:17Yeah, we talk about that a lot. I think when you're diagnosed, as an adult, it kind of brings another layer of challenges. Because you have, you have to fight some negative narratives. And Hannah, you were just talking about, you know, the negative talk that goes through your head, you have to fight that, you know, sometimes you have to fight years of that, whether it was heard, you know, from other people, or whether it's things that you're saying to yourself. That's, that's really hard, it's hard to change habits, when what's going on in your head is still, you know, that negative loop of I can't or I'm not good enough, or I don't deserve or I'm broken. And so, you know, we talked about coaching versus therapy, sometimes there is that overlap of you know, how do I how do I get past? How do I change that negative loop in my head so that I can, you know, work with the brain that I have and Cassie we weave cast came up with one of the best I don't know if it's a metaphor, or just the best Phrases She came up with one of one of the best phrases and I still use it today with with all my clients is your, you know, part of coaching is rewriting the manual for your brain. And that act just really spoke to me when when she said that and I i still repeat it all the time because it's so true. It's not about fixing what's wrong. It's about working with But you have Yes. And so I think that, you know, it takes an awful lot of courage to ask for help. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I really give a lot of credit to both Lina and Cassie for reaching out, because it's not easy. And we're, you know, they're both extremely emotionally intelligent women who, you know who work in the field, I think it's, I think that in some ways makes it harder, you know, people in social work, and maybe even in healthcare in general, we're there to help other people, and we're good at it, and maybe not so good at kind of looking back at ourselves or looking at ourselves in the mirror and saying, Well, what do I need help with. So I just want to acknowledge that it really takes an awful lot of courage to do what they've done, and to be on this journey, and to have to have been open to this journey, which both of them really are.Lina 46:07Yeah, I want to say something, too you know, because within the realm of, I don't know how many people know how the intricacies of healthcare works. But, you know, there's this thing called evidence-based practice. And sometimes evidence-based practice can be at odds with us people with executive functioning challenges, because a lot of times the evidence that they're basing their stuff off of doesn't include people like us in the research. So I have a hard time navigating, especially in mental health spaces, that rely on evidence based practices. But we're working with populations that were never included in the research for, you know, and I, as a person with ADHD, and you have challenges working with a lot of people with ADHD and you have challenges that have either gone overlooked, undiagnosed or invalidated. I'm struggle a lot, by even my own peers within the social work and mental health field, because not only do we have to navigate the challenges of working with our patients, but we also have to navigate the challenges of working with peers that don't see that. And just because our approach is different, doesn't mean that it's wrong. And just because it's, yeah, and just because it's, you know, you may not understand it doesn't mean that we are wrong in approaching our work differently in that way. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of complexities with that,Hannah Choi 47:55and you're doing all of that navigating, while managing your executive function challenges. You're not doing that in this vacuum, where you know, where you're just like, skipping around, remembering everything, and not finding anything stressful. So it's, it's a lot, and I commend you, all, all three of you for you know, the work that you've done and continue to do. And it's, it's, I'm just so glad that you are here today and talking about this. And, and, and I really hope that lots of people hear this and are able to really relate and hopefully feel validated, that validation is huge. And it's, it's, it's a right, Lina, I can imagine that maybe if you if someone validated your perspective, and validated where you're coming from, it would probably feel a lot better than Lina 48:57I probably would have gotten diagnosed as a kid instead of an adult. You know, yeah, I probably would have been heard. You know. So there's, you know, there's a lot of challenges and complexities within that. And I don't want to sound like a Negative Nelly, because I do think evidence based practices has its times in place, but, you know, that's where the creativity of meeting patients and clients where they're at, and truly validating their experiences in their life and having that relational approach rather than just purely scientific, purely medical, purely. Whatever bullshit they like to throw up.Hannah Choi 49:48The systems that that exist, exist, partially because there's not enough funding, and there's not enough people and there's not enough attention. There's not enough support. There's not had enough research, there's not enough validation of the troubles that there are out there. And so it is difficult to provide individual support when you are not supported yourself byLina 50:13Oh, yeah. And that's, Hannah Choi 50:15I know we could talk about that for days. Lina 50:17Yeah, as a systems based person, you know, we have the resources to do those things, we just choose as a system not to do it. You know, and that's, you know, I know, I say, I'm in social work, but my first master's was in public administration, and, you know, we have a bunch of the resources to do it, it's just we, politically and power wise choose not to, and that's really, and we're working within that system all the time. I'm sure Cassie see's just how, you know, funding schools and funding children's programs affects her and her job and what she's limited and doing. And I know, I struggle a lot with I work with a lot of people who are on Medicaid, you know, like, it's, and that's, that's severely limiting to what they need, and they have a lot of my needs. So it's, you know, it's a system thing too, and we have to constantly navigate those complexities.Hannah Choi 51:13Yeah, that's a lot. And the people that you work with, I'm sure are so grateful that you have made the choice in your life to do the work that you're doing. And, and that you I'm sure your your work has been so positively impacted by that effort that you have put in, to reach out for help for yourself, and to do the work that you've been doing and will continue to do to support yourself, which just improves the support that you're able to give the people that you work with. So let's explore that a bit. I would love to hear from you, Beth, about your experience working with Cassie and Lina,Beth Malvino 51:53I feel so honored to have been part of Cassie and Lina's journey journeys. And just to me, they're they're huge executive function success stories. They blow me away with how they manage and navigate their lives, their work. And I wanted them to shine. And so I'm glad that I'm here to kind of hear to hear them talk about these things. Because it also validates the fact that they they've done so much work. I mean, I love talking about people's journey, especially when they when they come to the end. And this is by no means the end of a journey, not like they're still on the journey. But just having beared witness to it has been really, really wonderful for me, and I I just, I'm so glad that I could be here to, to hear them to, you know, to talk about it. And I don't know if it's okay with them, I'd love to share some of the things that I've seen just in terms of their coaching journey. Oh my goodness, I mean when I first started working with Cassie, I'll just start there. She She was really struggling, she was emotionally spent. She doesn't didn't understand why she why she was leaving late every day she couldn't plan or prioritize. I think structuring her unstructured time was one of the biggest hurdles she she was experiencing there was a lot of procrastinationCassie 53:57My own brain would distract me, I'd be in the middle of a task of like, oh, I wanted to do this other thing. And then I would do that other thing, and then not finish the original task.Beth Malvino 54:06So there was a lot of that going on. Transitions were also really hard and just getting distracted, doing one thing and being distracted by another. Even just simple things. And you know, this goes back to what Lina was saying about remembering to eat lunch, just basic needs, sleep, food, hygiene, you know, those kinds of things. I think sometimes people forget that without that your executive functioning kind of falls apart. And so you have to kind of go back to basics and say, you know, what do I need right now Why am I feeling this way? Could it be because you haven't had lunch or you didn't sleep well or you stayed up on your phone till three in the morning? Just Doom scrolling, you know, is there. There's there are reasons that these things happen. So It just in terms of Cassie's journey, you know, I've watched I watched her go from sort of this almost despondent person who was really not happy in her role in her life and felt just things were very much out of her control. And then she kind of shifted, she changed jobs. And that shift made a huge difference for her in everything, her demeanor her affect her mood, I mean, it was such a big change, because I saw her finally doing something that she really truly loved. And from that came so many other amazing changes for her. She she was, for a while she had been using a thought collector, you remember the thought collector. So the thought collector was like a is basically a notebook and just a sort of list, a running list of things that she had to write stream of consciousCassie 56:09or even consciousness, it could because like I said, when I would be like, Alright, I need to write this note, I need to summarize a 45 minute individual therapy session, go. But then as I was having like, oh, yeah, my kiddo asked me to reach out to her mom, or my, you know, I have to send this email. And so in the middle of this hard job that I didn't want to do, I would remember a quicker, easier job. And then I was like, Oh, let me just do that real quick. And then I would get distracted by looking for a worksheet related to this topic. And then I would get, so my thought collector was kind of like a brain dump of like, okay, I know, this is important. I don't want to forget it. I'm gonna write it down. And then I'm gonna keep doing I don't want to do.Hannah Choi 56:45Yeah, that's great.Beth Malvino 56:47And a lot of that. I remember even during the early sessions that we had, it was kind of almost reactive, you would look at the thought collector and say, Okay, what, what have I not done, that I should have done this week. And let me get that done first. And so it was very sort of reactive in that in nature. Like, let me let me finish what I haven't done that needs to get done. And then after a while, things kind of shifted where you were, you could take a more proactive stance, and begin to plan ahead and begin to prioritize. So instead of looking back at what you hadn't done, you were able to look forward and look at the thought collector and say, What do I need to do? Going forward? What do I need to do this week? That was a big shift, the way you document and your notes even changed. And it was not a big change. But there was something that you had tweaked, that made it easier to document for yourself. It was the way that you were copying and pasting. Yes, some of your notes and just a small change, like that made a huge difference. Yes.Cassie 57:53Micro optimization. Yes.Hannah Choi 57:56Yeah. And I think that people don't recognize the, the, how that huge, that tiny, tiny, tiny little change can have such a huge impact. It's like, have you guys read Atomic Habits by James clear, he talks a lot about how like, if you just make like 1%, like a boat, if there's a ship, and it's going in this one direction, it makes a 1% change turn or one degree turn, I mean, then it's actually going to end up in like a really huge, different place. But if you never make that change, you'll just keep on going straight. And so that giving value to those small changes that can make a really big difference.Beth Malvino 58:34Absolutely. Yeah, I think just I've also just been really amazed at Cassie's ability, ability to self-regulate, when she because she works with a population that is really not regulated. And so I asked her all the time, I mean, she gets physically assaulted at work. And then she'll come to session and be like, oh, you know, I got hit today. And it's kind of like, just, it's almost like it's not, it doesn't affect her or she doesn't take it in. And she's still able to, to cope and do the things that she wants to do that day, and it doesn't get under her skin. And I've always been amazed by that. Because self regulation is one of the hardest executive function skills to master and especially if you're working with people who are not, not regulated, that can be a really big challenge. So she just has that amazing ability to do that.Hannah Choi 59:38That's great. So tell me all about LinaBeth Malvino 59:40and Lina, Oh my gosh. We, Lina says she's a verbal processor. I struggle because our sessions typically go way over and I did and I'm complete Part of that because, you know, I'm because I love talking to her. And because we end up talking about things that you know, are so relatable. And so it's not uncommon for us to go over our time limit. You know, I think, Lina we have, we have spent a lot of time talking about the inner narrative. Lina, I think I said this before that, you know, she was diagnosed as an adult. And so she, she brought with her some of those negative inner loops that tend to go through your head. And so we do spend a lot of time on that, which does bring a therapeutic component to coaching, but we're always able to relate it back to executive functioning. And so, but that that's all part of it, you know, we only have one brain, right, and the the toll that executive dysfunction takes on a person emotionally, has to be acknowledged, it can't be compartmentalized, you can't just talk about my challenges with EF skills, and also talk about the fact that I'm anxious, depressed and sad, they go together. And so there's a lot of overlap. And so we do talk about that a lot. And one of the things that I think she mentioned it, you know, remembering to eat, for example, it's just a basic need, right? We, I think a lot of us just take it for granted, like, Okay, you could skip lunch and feel fine. But when you have executive function, challenges, skipping lunch, could mean not functioning at all later in the day, and maybe not realizing how much of an impact that that has on you. So we do talk about that a lot. And remembering to put those things into her like scheduling fun, like, I need her to schedule lunch. I tell her, it's as important as breathing as if think of it as you know, medication, or insulin or something that you need. It's not just a nice thing to have, like you're not optional, to fulfill yourself and replenish yourself. So we talk about that a lot. And I'm also blown away by Lina 's ability to self-regulate, because she's working with some people who are seriously traumatized, and have, you know, dual diagnosis and a lot, a lot of stuff going on in their lives. And I'm in all of the fact that she is able to give so much of herself. To them, despite having challenges with with some of those same things like self regulation is is very hard, you know, big feelings are hard to navigate. And as a social worker, it's so much easier to navigate that with other people. Yeah. But not with yourself. And so it's, it's what it's a balance. And so we talk about that a lot, just being mindful of how she's feeling. Because it's very easy to distract yourself with how somebody else is feeling. One of the things that Lina has done in coaching, which is just incredible is she has utilized workspace sessions in a very unique way. And for those of you don't know workspace is one of the it's it's kind of, it's a website that Beyond BookSmart runs, where if you have something to do, and it doesn't matter what it is you sign up for a session and you have a person there, who is there to help pull you through it and to monitor how things are going and to be your cheerleader. And to give you some tips. And it sounds kind of simplistic, but it really does work. Having that external accountability of having another person there is very helpful. And so one of the things that Lina has done and I've talked to other clients about this because it's worked so well for her is she was able to literally master task initiate by scheduling sessions very carefully during her week. So on Sunday, she would use a workspace session to tackle chores or get all her cooking done. Can I talk about Mount Lina, is that okay?Lina 1:04:48I figured it was gonna come up. Yeah, okay, so we'll talk about Mount Lina. Yeah, you want to tell everyone what that lien is? Mount Lina is this corner of my bedroom. Where am I dresser is and you couldn't see the top of the dresser for months, because it's just a mountain of doom. Like just a mountain of doom lay like that's the best I can describe it just of clothes of random things that somehow made its way to the top of my dresser and I couldn't see my dresser for since I moved into this apartment, which was in 2021, up until earlier this year. Hannah Choi 1:05:37Congratulations! Lina 1:05:39Yeah. So Workspace helped me tackle Mount Lena. And it only took like, a day. And I was just like, Why? Why am I like this,Hannah Choi 1:05:48I had a client who, who had the same, she also had a mountain. And it was a desk at the bottom of her stairs in her living room. And so we did that I just sat with her during an entire session, and she cleaned it off. And she did it. And so that's the idea of body doubling, which, which Beth you didn't name but the body doubling is a super effective strategy for task initiation, especially for people with ADHD. And there's, there's like YouTube, you can go on YouTube, and just search for bodily to ebbeling. And they'll be like someone cleaning your closet out.Beth Malvino 1:06:23You know, one of the things with Lina that I've, I've really seen, because a lot of our sessions have been focused on that internet, you know, negative narrative that's been running through her head, is her ability to take risks. And to you know, for example, looking, thinking about relocating and going on job interviews, and just, I mean, it's, it's terrifying to think about moving from one city to another. And that can often be an obstacle to task initiation is fear. And she's really, really pushed past that. And she's, she's doing it,Lina 1:07:05you know, it sucks, having to really examine the things around you, and yourself, and your internal narrative to be like, Oh, this is what I've had. And this is what I know. And it's comfortable, but it's not working anymore, and having to do things differently, and having to really be like, No, this is what I really need. And that being at odds which with what you thought you needed. And there's a grief in that there's a sadness in that. And there's a lot of yeah, just because it's good to make these changes doesn't mean that it doesn't feel shitty, while you're doing it. So it's, there's been a lot of that, tooHannah Choi 1:07:51And, and it can, it can, I know, like for myself, like it can, making doesn't matter the size of the change, just recognizing like, this, this thing that I've the way that I've been doing, it has not been working, whether it's like, I don't know, I used to keep a grocery list on a piece of paper. And now I use any list. Like just recognizing like this system that I that I've been using for so long. It's actually not that great. And admitting that and not beating yourself up over it and saying, Okay, let me be open to something new, and then trying the new thing. Can really that's difficult work to do whatever the size, whatever the size is.Lina 1:08:32Yeah, yeah, like there have been definite things like, I was furious when I discovered that the dictate speech to text tool exists in Microsoft Word this whole time, that could have made my life so much easier if I had just known about it. Now, if I had known that I was a verbal processor, you know, I could have just spoken and wrote all my papers that way. But no, I didn't know that. Or, you know, I am so happy I have a Google Home assistant now because that thing helps me out so much. When it comes to like needing to verbally process I can just say hey, I won't say it now. But I can add this to this list, like when I remember it, and then I have it in my phone because it recorded it like my Costco list or Trader Joe list, my regular grocery list or my Home Depot list or this or that, you know, we're Amazon list like I can just remember. Like, I can just say it, it'll record it and then I don't have to remember it anymore. And I don't have to feel like I you know, because once it's out of the mouth, it just goes poof in the brain. Like it's just gone.Cassie 1:09:41Like, like your Google Assistant is like a digital version of my thought collector.Lina 1:09:46Yes. Yes.Cassie 1:09:50I use my Alexa more often for alarms and time-awareness. Yes, I do that to like, hey, in 30 minutes, remind me to take the stuff out of the washer or I do do that too times so that I can actually go and take the trash out before midnight, you know, thatLina 1:10:05Or remind me to put the wash or the laundry that's in the washer and the dryer so that I don't have to rewash it again, because I forgot. Because yeah, like I, I have to tell myself to do that, or, you know, it helps a lot with you know, I sleep with brown noise at night nowCassie 1:10:24Me too! Brown noise is better than white noiseLina 1:10:28It's so much better. And I it's so much more soothing to me. And so I listen to brown noise and that helps me out a lot. And, you know, I have a hard time waking up in the morning. I am not a morning person, I I've come to accept this fact about myself after years of trying to become a morning person. But what helps me wake up in the morning is turning on lights, like I'm very light sensitive. And so I tell my Google to turn on my bedroom lights at a certain time in the morning, like, Hey, turn on the bedroom lamp at such and such time, like at 6:30. And it'll do that and I'll turn the lights on before I put my alarm so that it's sort of like a wake, go Yeah, like a gradual thing. So it's not as terrible as the way I was waking myself up before getting a really loud alarm clock, putting it in my kitchen. And it it literally sounded like one of those loud school bells, like old 1950s school bells. And it was the worst way to wake up because it was just so abrasive, and it made me get out of bed, which I didn't want to do. And yeah, just like being more gentle with how you do things. Because all the harsh ways that I was doing number four just weren't working.Beth Malvino 1:11:40You know, what you're you're both of you are kind of capturing is that it's sort of the essence of what we try to do. And in coaching to in which both of you have really just navigated beautifully is the idea that it's not about trying harder. It's about trying differently. And I know I say that a lot. I still say that to both of you at times. But I say that just in general, that's sort of like a mantra that I have. Because that's really what it's about. It's, you know, the systems and the tools that you were using or didn't have before. You know, it's it's not about just working harder or putting in more efforts. It's about learning new strategies and new tools and finding what works for you and what works for you may not work for someone else. But that's okay. And to kind of become comfortable with that idea that I just need. I just haven't yet figured out what tools work for me. And both of you have worked so hard over the course of your journey in coaching to figure those things out, which has just been phenomenal and so amazing for me to witness.Hannah Choi 1:12:57Well, I could literally talk about this all day, but I actually have a client 12:30, speaking of being able to eat thank you so much for joining me and having this really really really important conversation. And it was really lovely for me to listen to hear to listen to your stories, and, and I appreciate your honesty and your openness. And I know that, that our listeners will really appreciate that too. And, and Beth, thank you so much for joining us. And then providing the coach perspective. And also social worker perspective. It's, it's been it was really, really enrich the conversation. So thank you so much. Beth Malvino 1:13:40My pleasure. Lina 1:13:40Thank you. Hannah Choi 1:13:44And that's our show for today. I really hope you enjoyed our conversation. As we talked about in this episode validation is a huge part of feeling better about the challenges we face. And we really, really hope that someone out there feels validated after hearing these shared struggles. You are not alone. Listen to what Lina shared about why she wanted to be on the podcast and why she became a social worker.Lina 1:14:11You know, I think it comes down to because I love people and I love creating spaces and holding space for people who don't feel like they belong or who don't ever feel validated just because I think most of my life, I felt that way. And yeah, it's, you know, it's really important, even if it's in the smallest of ways, or in ways that seem insignificant. Nothing is ever insignificant, I think.Hannah Choi 1:14:44If you know anyone who might really relate to Lina's and Cassie's stories, please share this episode with them. Thank you

Curious about thriving even when things don't go as planned? This episode delves into fostering self-reliance to tackle life's uncertainties and building confidence to embrace the unpredictable. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Client loyalty programs and rewardsCelebrating small victories and reinforcing positive decision-makingThe value of asking for help and acknowledging the support of othersPersonal growth and expansion through travelThree components to manifesting the life you wantEpisode References/Links:Join OPC for the members only challengeMay 6: Pilates Day! More about it soon.May: Elevate Round 3Upcoming Trips:May: Seoul, South Korea (Balanced Body's Pilates on Tour)July: UK Mullet Tour (Get on the waitlist or get more information at opc.me/uk)August: Summer West Coast Tour (Get on the waitlist at opc.me/tour)September: Poland Tour (Don't miss out on the information! Go to lesleylogan.co/poland)October: Cambodia (Pilates retreat. Go to lesleylogan.co/retreat)November: Miami Pilates on Tour  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.Be It Till You See It Podcast SurveyBe in the know with all the workshops at OPCBe a part of Lesley's Pilates MentorshipWaitlist for the flashcards deckUse this link to get your Toe Sox!ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookLinkedInEpisode Transcript:Lesley Logan 00:01Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. We hit 200 Holy cow, you're listening to the 200th episode, this one right now in your ears. I mean, that's insane. 200 Okay, so we actually got here much sooner. And we weren't really paying attention. That's what happens when you're having a good time. And so we have not put together to another episode like we did for the 100. However, we wanted to take a moment to celebrate because you should celebrate your wins, no matter what mile markers you put, so happy 200 to us, we would not be here if it wasn't for you. So I just want to take a moment and say thank you, and I'm celebrating you today. So jump up and down. And I'm moving around in my seat. And and I just love the table, which everyone hates. Anyways, thank you again, from the bottom of my heart, to our teams. To everybody who touches this episode, including your ears, you have no idea how much it means to me. We are sitting in the top 2% of all podcasts in the entire world. That is like, do you know how many how many podcasts we beat because of you guys, so that tells me you'll love it. You want to listen to more of them. And I'm just so frickin grateful.Brad Crowell 05:27And now, today's episode.Lesley Logan 05:30Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co host in life, Brad, and I are going to dig into the untraditional convo I had with Hillary Billings in our last episode. I think that also call it expanding.Brad Crowell 06:25I think we should just stick with expanding because the untraditional Yes, it's untraditional but she really dig digs into expanding.Lesley Logan 06:32Yeah, she's an expander. If you haven't yet listened that interview. Feel free to pause this now and go back and listen that one and then come back and join us. I had somebody actually DM me because they listened to the recap that we had about Phil Barth, and they're like, Okay, listen to your latest podcast. But what's a bo hag? Oh, and I said, Oh, well.Brad Crowell 06:50I think we talked about it. Lesley Logan 06:51Well, maybe we, I'm sure we did. Because you're so good at that. But I just said just go listen to him explain it. Brad Crowell 06:59I listened. I listened to the initial interview and I missed it. And I was like, What the hell are we talking about? So I had to go back and really dig in. So yeah,Lesley Logan 07:08Well then I thought we talked about it... Brad Crowell 07:10on the recap, we defined it, for sure. Yeah. Lesley Logan 07:12Oh, I was definitely on point with him there. Well, then. What's the bo hag?Brad Crowell 07:16big old hairy ass goal.Lesley Logan 07:19That's what I thought. Yeah, okay. Okay. Okay. A decade ago, a ton ago. Okay. So you guys, today is aside from being 420. Which those of you who know you know, then today is all that's for my brother who is a weak Somali a and if you are interested, there are people who like are really experts on that. And I'm not saying you anyone should be doing it or not doing it. I'm just saying if you're doing it, go see a Somali who like knows what to do with all the things and it's also more importantly, national death doula day. And if you're like, what is that? Well, my original assistant who is was on the podcast, Lindsay, she is not a death doula anymore. But she was a death doula before the pandemic and I just loved it. And I found out about a guy who's also a death doula, and I think I want to bring him on actually. Coincidentally, I used to go the church that he was a pastor at, so I feel like... (Brad: ohh random) I know so random. I know. Anyway, everyone's like she went to church with that foul mouth. Yes, y'all. I have a degree from a private university. And at any rate, if you don't know what that is, you should definitely look that up. Because it's actually a really cool way to look at death. And big shout out to Lindsay, our first assistant there's so many holidays, we can celebrate you. She's probably like, really, this is the day. This is the day that we've decided for this year. So anyways, yeah. It's not for that. It's for the death, doula. And she is rolling her eyes right now. Okay. Also, this week, we are in the middle of the OPC members only challenge and if you're like, wait, what? you're missing it! Well, if you are not an OPC member you are. And it's because we moved the OPC challenges into the members only group just because we will, we can have a lot more hands on experience with you. Because we have an app and we have a group and we have this whole it's just easier. So you can join OPC if you want to be part of the next challenge. Next month, May 6 is Pilates day. We'll have an event plan and I'm working on all the details. We can announce that to you in the actual so you can like plan for it. But everyone is going to be able to join in on it which is really exciting. Also next month elevate round three kicks off. If you are listening this in real time. There's only two spots left. Actually, I don't know they might be sold out by the time this comes out. But at the time that we're recording this before it comes out in real time. There's two spots left. I feel like I want to do round four. That is 2024 because it makes sense.Brad Crowell 09:55Next year!Lesley Logan 09:56Next year. Also coming up may we are in Seoul. We are bringing flashcards to balance buddies P O T supplies on tour. It's our first time back to Seoul in three years. And we just secured a mat reformer and Cadillac cards for them to have at that P O T. So if you live in Korea and you've been wanting the cards, you better sign up for P O T. I'll be teaching there. July if you live in UK or if you want to fly to the UK, we are coming there for our mullet tour. Yep, that's what it's called. I'm so excited. You can get on the waitlist or get more information to opc.me/uk (...) said mullet and I mean, I absolutely do. But the true definitionBrad Crowell 10:39Business in the front Pilates in the back.Lesley Logan 10:41Yeah. And August we're doing a summer West Coast tour. You can get on the waitlist and opc.me/tour that is the US states West Coast. Australia, I know you got one. I want to get there. We're not there yet.Brad Crowell 10:56Everyone has a West Coast.Lesley Logan 10:58If there's if there's two coasts, that's true. Like Spain is like, there's not you know what I mean? Like in Europe as well (...) Canada might have, no because they've a West Side ,west coast. I don't know. Somebody who knows geography can explain that to me. But anyways, the places that would think of the West Coast, we're gonna be in the US if you are wanting to be a host for that. And you're like, I want to fill a class and I want you to stop at our place then ping the team... (Brad: yeah, makes sure we know) Yeah, shout it out. September Poland. Stay tuned. Actually, the time this comes out. I'll have a link for you. But you can always just go to Lesley logan.co/poland And we'll make sure you don't miss out on the information. We are bringing flashcards to Poland and to the UK. October Cambodia. Oh my gosh, the women's...Brad Crowell 11:47Yeah, yeah, I was just gonna say we have a super fun group already. That has already decided they're coming literally, they're buying their plane tickets now. And we'd love to have you join us too. It's gonna be really incredible. Also, we you know, don't have an infinite number of spots. So don't sit on this. There's still plenty of time for you to find tickets that aren't like insanely expensive and get your visas and all that stuff we can all get through all that soLesley Logan 12:15snag your spots so you don't miss out and then also there's plenty of time to buy the plane ticket, plane tickets prices change you knowBrad Crowell 12:21Yeah. You don't have to worry about the only thing you have to worry about is getting yourself there will pick you up from the airport and then you will that's furtherLesley Logan 12:28By the way. I just said flexual and I meant flexible and and... (Brad: flexual?) flexual and like...Brad Crowell 12:34That's a 420 day. Lesley Logan 12:36No, no, I don't know what the other word like they they they're fluid and flexible. Like the prices are always changing. Like it's like sexual but not, okay. November November. One of the greatest times to be in Miami. I thought so and so requested that, so we'll be at the Miami P O T. More to come on that because...Brad Crowell 12:58Oh wait, but you're gonna be down there priorLesley Logan 13:00We're gonna be there prior. Our (...) will be there for the (...) weekend together. Brad Crowell 13:06Yeah. And I will be joining both of you at the P O T.Lesley Logan 13:09 Yes. Which by the way, if you want to know what's going on with that we don't know anything about the P O T part. We just know it's happening... (Brad: and we're just gonna be showing up) Yeah, we're just showing up because that's what the party is at, it's Miami... (Brad: with flashcards) Yeah, with flashcards. And if you're like I don't wanna wait for flashcards, to all these dates, you can buy them anytime, y'all. So anyways, that's our trips. And we're gonna keep doing that so that you are invited to hang out with us in person. Somewhere in this world. We're trying to get to different places. It's fine.Brad Crowell 13:37Yeah. So thanks for joining us on these quick announcements. All right, on to an audience question. What do you think about client loyalty programs? Do you have a workshop that addresses them? I scrolled through your website. Maybe I missed it. Thanks. Well, the smiley face. Lesley Logan 13:56Yeah. So a Pilates studio asked me to send DMS and I don't coach in the DMS. So you're welcome to ask and we'll just answer them on here. Unless you're an agency member, and then I'll answer your agency. And I actually thought this is a really great question to talk about today because Hillary billings actually connected us to Brittany Kodak. Yeah. And Brittany Kodak wrote the book creating superfans which is out now and you can get it on Audible she did the reading and also you can get the hardback it's actually really cool hardback book to have. And we will have her on the podcast, her episodes gonna drop, I think sometime in May. So the reason I bring this up is I just don't really I stand by you. It's really hard to pay people to talk about your product. Yeah. And it's really tough. So...Brad Crowell 14:42Unless you're paying them like $1,000Lesley Logan 14:44Yeah, I mean, well, here's the deal. We have affiliate programs like so I would even call it a client loyalty program or an affiliate program. We have those. And we let our people sign up for them because they're going to talk about anyways and we want to reward them for that. However, we don't Push it. So I'm not like, Hey, guys, it's the month of May. And anytime you any new member, you get me you get paid double. And the reason I don't do that is because I really do want the referral to be authentic and genuine, someone asked them or they're talking to someone, and they think that this is the appropriate thing for them. Regarding studios with client client loyalty programs, here's the deal. People actually want you to solve the problem that they have. That's why they hired you. And what I would recommend you do is actually become obsessed with solving their problem as quickly as possible and making sure that they have the most amazing experience, that they just can't wait to tell their friend about it. However, the truth is, is that there are influencers out there that make their money off of off of being an affiliate. And there are programs out there that can be really great client loyalty programs, what I would say is, without knowing your business, if you don't have a big studio with multiple teachers, and tons of classes every week, the client loyalty program is really hard to keep on top of mind, because you need a team and you need enough people to actually be like winning the things that people it's just becomes another thing you have to manage. Brad Crowell 16:30Well, but also, I mean, you know, your program doesn't have to be this formal, dedicated, like written out side of contract program. It can literally be like, Hey, thanks for referring Susie. Here's a $50 gift card to the Italian joint down the street.Lesley Logan 16:44Yeah, and I guess and also like, if there you could also not have a program and just like, have set up in your thing that anytime someone's a client that a year from now, you're alerted, so that you just send them something like that, that would be cool. Why have them sign up for a program that you could just surprise them with something?Brad Crowell 17:03Yeah, or their birthdays, you know, you do something special Lesley Logan 17:06I'm gonna, I'm gonna steal something from Brittany. In her book. She says why not? Like, of course, absolutely. Definitely celebrate their birthday with them. But what if you just set a reminder this celebrate their half birthday with them? That's a fun idea. Yeah, like, yeah, so that's really fun. So I would just say like, what do I think about them? I think they can be great. I don't think that they're going to they're the I don't think that that is the thing that's going to make or break your business?Brad Crowell 17:30Well, I don't think that's the thing that's going to get your clients to refer their friends. No, it's just a nice perk that keeps you top of mind that that that continues to reinforce how much they love you, you know, unless you're running like a true affiliate playbook. You know, these are more like, like, really fun relationship building perks.Lesley Logan 17:54Yeah. I mean, and also, like, if you're thinking, Well, I just want to celebrate how many classes they come to, or how long they've come? I would just do it without having a fancy schmancy program. Brad Crowell 18:05I'm not opposed to that, though. Like if you have really happened in studio, where you're running group classes all the time, having a loyalty program where like, when somebody hits, 100 classes, 250 classes, 1000 classes, that's, that's, that can be an incredible driver for people to come back often and to really participate as much as they can. Because they want their name on the wall, or they want the coat that you're going to give them or whatever. But if that's not the style of studio you run then, you know,Lesley Logan 18:38Also you'll read in her book because you're gonna read her book because she's gonna be on the show, but you'll read in her book that like, yes, people are accustomed to getting emails like this is how many classes you went to this week. This is how much you did this, but it doesn't they it doesn't mean like Peloton emails me every week. They don't send me any gifts. I still open the email. I still use my Peloton. So you don't have to give them things all the time. But you can give them shout outs from time to time and I'm just I think the thing that I'm afraid of saying is like, yes, have a loyalty program and the solopreneurs are like, how do I do that? I have like nine clients.Brad Crowell 19:12Yeah, I agree. It's not gonna be the make it or break it. Lesley Logan 19:17Every person can reward clients with some sort of love note at different points in the journey with you. You don't have to have any fancy technology for that. If you're a big studio who has a team and capacity to include this, fine, do it but if you think it's like, oh, this is how I'm going to get to my seven figures or am I this figures. No, your actual treatment of clients in the studio before they work with you when they left you. That is absolutely going to make the difference in your business. The client loyalty program is extra icing on the top.Brad Crowell 19:53Yeah, no, I'm with you. 100% There. Lesley Logan 19:56Okay, great.Thanks for agreeing with me. Okay, let's talk about Hillary Billings.Brad Crowell 20:49From the beaches of Nicaragua. Hillary's adventure began as a travel blogger, she became Miss Nevada. And today she is actually a sought after brand strategist and speaker, sidenote, lion tamer, what I don't even know I need to learn more about this. Lesley Logan 21:07Oh, you guys, we had her speak in the agency group. And she is a lion tamer or was a lion tamerBrad Crowell 21:14Hilary works. Hillary uses psychology to get attention for companies both on and offline in a content saturated world. And she and her partner actually have this amazing company where they are teaching people how to make content that is viral. And I know that's like the gimmick word. But they have a very scientific approach to how they analyze content that could and should be viral. And if you can hear dogs in the background that being hilarious or no, yeah. But it's, it's kind of amazing. We're actually about less than (...) bootcampLesley Logan 21:49Attentioneers. And at the time you've listened to this, we've already taken their boot... (Brad: Yes, that's true) We'll put the link to the bootcamp below. Yeah, we have a we have a link for you. Anyways, I She's just I mean, like, talk about like, a cat has lived Nine Lives.Brad Crowell 22:03Yeah. Oh, yeah. 100%. Like, I definitely was like, every time she kept going with her story. I was like, what? And what? And what?Lesley Logan 22:11I know. I know. So, so. Cool. So um, and we talked about this on the episodeBrad Crowell 22:16dude, like research, scientific research. She basically put herself through college on scholarships. She helped her parents buy their house or somethingLesley Logan 22:28Well, first of all her company's quality engineers. Second note, do you remember the guy who introduced Do you remember Michael? I think his name was Michael. He wrote that book about his journey. And like, he's the one he's like, Oh, my friend is Miss Nevada. And she lives in Las Vegas. Let me introduce her. He's the first person to introduce me to her in June of 2020.Brad Crowell 22:46Right. So we were introduced to her multiple times over multiple years. And it took until this year to finally connect the dots. Lesley Logan 22:55It's like you and me getting together. It just took the universe a lot of extra work to get you to pay attention.Brad Crowell 23:02Yeah. All right.Lesley Logan 23:03Let me tell you what I love. Re enforcing good decision making behavior. So she talked a lot about there's a couple of examples she gave, but first of all celebrate the micro decisions. So remember, when she was talking about when she's traveling like, and she was alone, she would find a place to have breakfast, and then she'd celebrate like me, I like found a place in a foreign place to have something I like to eat. Like, that's really amazing. And I think especially the women listen to this if your listeners Hello, perfectionist, recovering overachiever, that means you. It's too often I see people not celebrate that they did these things even big deal things. It's like leaving your hotel room. I will never forget when I was in Brazil by myself. And I got to my hotel room and I slept for 12 hours. And then I got up and I was like, Okay, I got to go eat. And I was like, I thought, What am I going to eat and I googled and like I like everything is in Portuguese and I like walked to the place and I got the breakfast and then I walked back to my hotel, because that's all I had researched. And I was like, I did it. I did that. And these are the ways that you build confidence. And also when she talked about her horse, like she would give like little they called like muffins, cookies, cookies, like her her horse was a skittish horse and not and I'm not saying your horse, but like more was Hillary but like, you give them the cookie to the horse to reinforce the good behavior, then they're less scared of the thing. And so you too, need to give yourself a cookie. Every time you do something that is like outside of your comfort zone and it doesn't have to be a 10 feet out to the computer. It could be a millimeter.Brad Crowell 24:40Yeah, for her bigger picture of this was she had been in control but in control, like she grew up in a in a in a environment where she didn't have control. Her parents didn't have much money. She didn't have you know much luxury or any of that stuff. And then she put herself through college by taking control. Yes, and then she got rejected from all the colleges that she was trying to go to Lesley Logan 25:02also, just like every millennial, we had, that you do this, and then you do this and you do this. So you write, you do all the sports and you have a job and you apply to colleges and you volunteer, you do 17 things. And you do you do it, and it's picture perfect. And you get into the thing, and then she didn't get into the thing.Brad Crowell 25:22And it was it was a fail. Right? So and but it was a fail. Okay, she didn't get into the schools that she wanted to go through. Yeah, not on her fault. But it still didn't go the way she wanted. So what did she do? She threw it all the wind. And she went around the world to travel, which is like, there's no control in that. Right? And so when she got back, when she got to these places, she was thinking, okay, cool. I just succeeded at a thing. She said she was often really like, felt alone and scared. And this is like before the internet was everywhere, and Wi Fi and cell phones and stuff. And so the idea of reinforcing, you know, quote, unquote, good behavior. Instead, reinforce success, reinforce those wins, remind yourself, she said, review your history, see where you've succeeded in the face of adversity, then you can conclude that you've succeeded, even when you didn't have control. It didn't go the way that you wanted, but you still were able to succeed. So the ultimately, that allows you to look forward in the future and say, even though I don't know what's going to happen, I know that when I didn't have control in the past, I was still able to succeed.Lesley Logan 26:32Yeah, and I will, there's an upcoming episode, spoiler alert, that what's really cool is when you do things like this, and you celebrate those wins, and you give yourself a cookie, you start to have these moments where you can count on you like recognize you can count on yourself, right? And that is so key for showing up when you don't know what's going to happen. Because I know like when everything hits the fan, I'm like, I know, we can count ourselves. Like I might not be able to count on this technology, or this company or this thing, but I know I won't let myself down. You won't let ourselves down. So like, you know, so anyways, but that comes you gotta you got to actually like recognize that.Brad Crowell 27:11Yep. Yeah... (Lesley: What did you love?) So I, I love the idea that you can't do it alone. And it is whatever it is, you might be, we all need help. Right? And we need to know when to ask for help and how to get it. And this stood out to me because of my entrepreneurial journey, and experience and being in the band and doing all these things. I just assumed that I have to do it myself, whatever it is. And she kind of laughs at that and says, Hey, even though you made the decision to go to breakfast, you getting breakfast, you have help getting breakfast, you had to get there. So maybe you took a ride, you had help from someone, you had to order get help from someone there, they had to have the food. That means there's like, whole supply chain and farmers and like, you know, like people driving it to the restaurant involved. Right. So we've I think that it's really funny that we think I did this on my own. You know, maybe you set up a studio in your house, I did this on my own. Did you make the equipment? No, you didn't. Right? So you had help? Even if it was a company, you had help!Lesley Logan 28:31Even if you did make the equipment yourself, somebody made the wood... (Brad: Oh, her partner made it) okay, but Right? Well, I understand maybe she wants to say let's just for the example that I'm trying to make, let's just say that she made it somebody else made the like metal hooks, right? Somebody else made the springsBrad Crowell 28:48like yeah, the boards that she bought, I mean all the things. So like, we have this, this weird concept that I have to do it myself in order for it to be a win in my book. And I think that we can dispel that notion, you know, we can let go of the idea that I did it myself because that's not actually real.Lesley Logan 29:09And also, why are we so obsessed with doing it ourselves?Brad Crowell 29:14I actually don't know, like I wrote down where did we learn that we have to do it on our own in air quotes, you know, in order for us to chalk up that quote unquote, win on our own board because I agree, I don't I don't know we just I think must be just this like natural inclination. And I think that we should let that go.Lesley Logan 29:36I think it's because we have somebody gets an award. So like when people get an award in school, you get an award. You get an award for the spelling bee they don't go and your teacher got an award and your school got an award and the janitor who made sure to clean classroom got an award like they don't do that. But I like every single person who you've ever heard a speech get an award thank somebody. And if they miss someone that makes the news but everyone thanks somebody. So anyway, stop trying to do it all on your own. So many people want to help you. There are so many people who are like literally like going, oh my god, I'm so good at copywriting. And you could just hire them. They don't want to be the face. They don't want to do the things. They just want to write words down. That sound cute. That's what they want to do. Like they need you so that they can do the thing that they want to do anyways. Okay. Brad Crowell 30:28Love it. Alright, so finally, let's talk about those Be It action items what bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Hillary Billings?Lesley Logan 31:20Speaking of travel to Cambodia.Brad Crowell 31:22Yeah, so she said, travel to get uncomfortable. And she said this is something that really was something she was able to do more in her 20s when she wasn't, you know, owning a horse, like had a place and stuff like that here in Vegas, but travel to get uncomfortable. And then while you're uncomfortable, figure out how you can make it comfortable. And that will help you create this confidence, like we talked about earlier, that you are able to survive through situations where you don't necessarily have control. Yeah, she said today she uses different tools in order to find expansion and the growth that she's wanted. But travel is an amazing way to do it. And we absolutely recommend joining us in Cambodia because it is a little bit scary. But it's also so rewarding.Lesley Logan 32:14What's so scary? It is scary to be on long flights. It is scary to go to a place you've never seen before... (Brad: the scariness is just simply the unknown) It's the unknown, but it is very safe.Brad Crowell 32:25We've gone so many times. Yeah. Her dad has joined us. He's a 70. He's only 71. He's joined us three times now in the last three years (...) But yeah, he's brought us three times now.Lesley Logan 32:45Yeah, I do think I've really there's something about travel, that really helps you, like get comfortable with uncertainty and unknowing. And especially when you're with people who know things. So there you go. It's like it's like a it's like a cheat. I love it. It's like training wheels.Brad Crowell 33:02And it's one of the like, you know, you mentioned this earlier about when you were Brazil, I remember the first time you know that I was in Cambodia by myself... (Lesley: Oh, yeah. You went without me to get the house) to get the to get the house. And it was just me and I was in a new neighborhood. I didn't really, I mean, I still had a couple of relationships there. But they were working and busy. And I had to basically do the same thing. Like, what am I going to eat breakfast, and I couldn't even Google it. It wasn't like,Lesley Logan 33:32No like the places that do breakfast, they don't have a website.Brad Crowell 33:35Yeah. So you know, it was like, Alright, I guess I'll just get on my bicycle and ride up the street and see what happens. And then okay, that's enough. And I'll go back. And you know, and then obviously, the more you do it, the more confident you get. And now today, we know we have relationships with most of these places. Lesley Logan 33:50Except for the people that make my bananas and my (...)Brad Crowell 33:55(...) carts, but they move, they move around.Lesley Logan 33:57And my lady, she takes random days off and then some of them will roast the bananas, but they won't make potato cakes and some of them like and the only thing in the morning and it's just, I I just really want it I want that to be served. Anyways, this isn't me complaining at this point. Let me talk about my takeaway. So um, okay, so she actually also interviewed actually, I was mentioned Lacy Phillips, To Be Magnetic is her podcast and we will work on getting her on Hillary. Let us hope. Okay, so there are three components to manifesting the life you want. So this is what Lacy Phillips created. So the step number one is always be expanding if you're like whaaat?, so you can find expanders, like you can actually like, find people who you're like, Oh my God, they're always expanding. You know, these people are they're like, always learning something new. They have an abundance mindset like things don't scare themBrad Crowell 34:47or they've already done what you're trying to do. Yes. Right. So you know, and it allows you to feel confident that it's possible, right?Lesley Logan 34:55Yep, unlock second step, unlock limiting beliefs. So first, this is like goes back to the artists way, you have a limiting belief like you whenever you say I can't do that, that they're just saying that's a limiting belief or that won't work for me orBrad Crowell 35:08no matter how kindly you say you can't do that to yourself, oh, I can't do that. I'm never gonna say, No, you're still holding on to a limiting belief.Lesley Logan 35:16Oh my gosh, yeah, so that's a limiting belief. So first of all, like, you have to actually feel deserving, and worthy of receiving what you want. So that's one place worth exploring. And then do you believe that you want what you want as possible?Brad Crowell 35:33Right, so that goes back to the expanders that you surround yourself with.Lesley Logan 35:36And then, um, see to believe is a reprogram that you can like you can doBrad Crowell 35:43well, this idea that we have to see it to believe it. Yeah, you know, like, there's, there's a sense that it's helpful, but it's not necessary.Lesley Logan 35:50Well, also, like, there are so many people who have done things in parallel lines of work, or ideas that you can use, right? Like, in my world, I'd never seen people do what I was doing with the flashcards, but tarot cards were existence. So like, you can find different evidences to prove but also don't use like, well, it's never happened before, so it won't work. No one landed on the moon before someone landed on the moon. So hello, right. And then. And then lastly, like really understanding what it is standing in the way of your fears and like, get really honest with like, say it out loud.Brad Crowell 36:34So there are fears that are standing in the way of your beliefLesley Logan 36:38in The Artists Way, she actually has you like, say some affirmations. And when you say them, if there's any, any cognitive dissonance around it. She asked you to like figure out who told you that when did this start happening? When did you have this thought when did this thing come up. And then that is going to help you figure this out, because you have to unlock those limiting beliefs. And lastly, which will be called my brother, Leslie Lacy Lastly. Take aligned action. Remember action is the antidote to fear and action makes clarity. So, aligned action I think can actually sound a little like on the double blue side, like taking aligned action and like, you know, whatever. Aligned action just means like, take a step that is actually going up, is in alignment. I hate using the word definition but goes along with what you are actually trying to have and do so if you are wanting, we're, okay, I want to know hobby. If you've been listening this podcast for two years, I've been working on it. You guys have been working on it. So taking an alignment and aligned action, it doesn't have to be perfect. Like the things that I have tried as hobbies have failed. Not it's nothing against them. It's just it didn't work for me. So I can't go up. Never gonna have a hobby. Again. That'd be a limiting belief. Instead, I'm like, No, people have hobbies that are my age who have their own businesses. I'm looking for these expanders, what is something else I want to do and then taking an action. So we are signed up to take a beginner climbing, rock climbing course. So I'm gonna do that because I I think it could be a cool hobby. At any rate, aligned action is just simply taking a step towards the thing that you want. And you are going to have to unlock those limiting beliefs to figure out what that next step is. And you'll have to go with an expander or stalking one online to help you get those things. All right. I'm Lesley Logan,Brad Crowell 39:26and I'm Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 39:28And the dogs have lost their minds. We're gonna wrap this up. We are so grateful for you truly, uh, you have no idea. Brad and I actually spent a week at a pod, podcasting conference convention conference. Yeah. And I think it was you guys. And as I was in all these different sessions, I was like, Is this going to actually work for them? Is this going to help them? Is this going to help us get more listeners? You know, and we're really excited. So we have a special announcement to share very soon. You'll actually hear about it as soon as it's ready. But there's all these different opportunities we've been looking at and we've been thinking about you and it's because we hear, we see your views, we hear, we read your surveys, we are talking with you, you share our stuff and you tell us what you like and sometimes what you don't like. And I appreciate that so much. And so thank you for joining us today. Thank you for sharing the show, however you do that. And we want to know as you've said in every episode, how are you going to use these tips in your life? What are what was your favorite Be It action item. What were your favorite talking points? Who your favorite guests is? send us an a DM, tell us a question you want us to ask on the next Recap and until next time, Be It Till You See It. Brad Crowell 40:26Bye for now.Lesley Logan 40:26That's all I've got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us help others to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day! ‘Be It Till You See It' is a production of ‘Bloom Podcast Network'.Brad Crowell 40:26‘Be It Till You See It' is a production of ‘Bloom Podcast Network'. It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.   Lesley Logan 40:26It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.   Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing. Brad Crowell 40:26Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.  Lesley Logan 40:26Special thanks to our designer Mesh Herico for creating all of our visuals, (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all the video each week, so you can.Brad Crowell 40:26And to Angelina Henrico for transcribing each episode, so you can find it on our website. And finally to Meredith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.  Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode of Streamed and Screened, we dive deep into the latest entertainment offerings, from new movies and TV series. A trio of musicals are dropping, including "Schmigadoon!" on Apple TV+, "Up Here" on Hulua and "Grease: Rise of the Pink Ladies" on Paramount+. New movies like "Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves" and "The Super Mario Bros. Movie" are in theaters and no gaming knowledge is required. We also chat about the return of HBO's hit show "Succession," which is back for its forth and final season, discuss the early success of "The Night Agent" on Netflix and talk with actor Jesse Metcalfe about his role in the film "On a Wing and a Prayer," which will get a limited theatrical release and is streaming now on Amazon's Prime Video platform, just in time for Easter. Where to Watch "Succession" on HBO "The Night Agent" on Netflix "On a Wing and a Prayer" on Amazon Prime Video "Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves" in theaters "Grease: Rise of the Pink Ladies" on Paramount+ "Schmigadoon!" on Apple TV+ "Up Here" on Hulu "The Super Mario Bros. Movie" in theaters About the show Streamed & Screened is a podcast about movies and TV hosted by Bruce Miller, a longtime entertainment reporter who is now the editor of the Sioux City Journal in Iowa and Terry Lipshetz, a senior producer for Lee Enterprises based in Madison, Wisconsin. Episode transcript Note: The following transcript was created by Podium.page and may contain misspellings and other inaccuracies as it was generated automatically: Transcript generated by Podium.pageHelp us spread the word by tweeting about us at @PodiumDotPage and including us in your shownotes! https://podium.page 0:00:03Welcome everyone to another episode of streamed and screened and entertainment podcast about movies and TV from Lee Enterprises. Rises. I'm Terry Lipshetz, a senior producer at Lee and cohost of the program with Bruce Miller, editor of the Sioux City Journal and a longtime entertainment reporter. Bruce, Spring is here. Weather is getting better, but it it seems like we might be heading back to the movie soon. A lot of good stuff coming out. You know, we're in that period now. Where you're gonna see new stuff that maybe won't be Oscar bait, and it isn't quite holiday fair, you know, like, or it's lie is big time, Memorial Day is a big time, Labor Day is a big time. They all have tentpole, which are kind of considered the big money grabbers. Features, but there will all be also be a lot of these ones that, you know, there's a place for them and they'll make money. So we're starting to get into that era. And we're also seeing, like because of the holiday period, there will be a lock out there so that everybody has something. You will find something for grandma, something for mom, something for dad, something for the kids, and if you hold a bunch to the theater, you'd say, well, that's just all those separate ways and see what we wanna see. So there are enough enough movies out there to keep us kind of interested, but there are also TV series that are are popping now too. And I don't know why this kind of Third season is rising up, but there are a lot of things that are happening. In fact, it's odd. There are three new musical series. That are popping right now. What what is that a second season? But Schmigadoon!, did you see Schmigadoon! last year? I did not know. 0:01:42This spoof of Broadway musicals. So last year, they did forties and fifties. This year, they're doing sixties and seventies. And it was supposed to be called Shnicago but they realized that they couldn't change the name without, you know, kind of confusing people. So it's called Schmigadoon!, but it's said in Chicago. Okay. 0:02:02It spoofs musicals for, like, a pippin, a hair, Jesus Christ superstar, and it's about this couple that kind of wander into this goofy town where they all will act like characters from these shows. He and Michael Key and essentially strong are the are the two who enter into the world. And then it's just a herd of Broadway people. Then the people who are behind the cameras on Broadway or behind the scenes rather have made a thing called up here. And Up Here is kind of a What would it be like if musical set in New York City? And it's big names, the people who did Frozen hamilton, you name it, they are doing something, and it was their big pandemic project. And so they did this whole thing, wrote this whole thing, got it all together, and now it's finally premiering. 0:02:56And then finally, the the last of the three big musical shows coming out is Grease Rise of the Pink Ladies. And that's a prequel to the grease that you see as a movie. So it set four years earlier and how did those pink ladies kind of come to be a a gang, if you will, and what do they represent? It's a way for them to kind of correct some of the myopic views of the movie. So you're going to see a much more diverse cast. You're not going to hear the songs from Greece except the title song. And then you'll see other characters. And there is hope that at some point you will see Sandy and Danny come into the thing in, like, your three or your four if it lasts that long. 0:03:41So it'd be, like, freshman kinda coming into Right. So you say who is that one? Yeah. I don't think he would hire John Travolta to come in and play himself as a high school freshman. But, you know, strange or things have happened. Could they bring in John Travolta to play like a teacher, kind of. But it would also be bringing him back kind of because he started on Welcome Back, Kotter. And he could almost turn the tables on him career wise. 0:04:10I like the way you think. Doesn't matter how that goes. Yeah. And they can get them to do a cameo or a thing. Huge. But I think it's got a built in audience as it is because kids love to sing those songs and it's filled with a lot of original content. A lot of original songs that were written just for this. So those are just three musicals that we've got coming on streaming and television networks. 0:04:36And then you get all of the the kind of the creepy ones that are out there. There's a bunch of creepy shows HAR does really well. And for some odd reason, at last night, I watched a preview of a horror film that's how do I explain it? It's a gay bachelor party where they go to an old mansion and they are gonna have a say odds to call on a mother who killed her son in the house. The concept. I mean, how do they come up with this stuff? It was another pandemic project, but you're gonna see a lot of horror films around this time as well. So those are the big things itself. And then the big ones that we've got, duchess and dragons, honor among thieves, that's already in theaters. And it'll do really well because it's very adventurous. It's like an Indiana Jones film. So I never play dungeons and dragons. Did you ever Nor will I. 0:05:33I think it has too many pieces, too many characters, too many things to learn. And this is very good at kind if it's like the the game at all, it pulls you through it, and it makes you understand what they're doing and where they're going. And it's kind of a dumb down version, I would assume. But it does allow you to kind of laugh with them and add them. And then there's a Hugh Grant. Remember how we talked about Hugh Grant at the Oscars and how he was kinda snarky with one of the interviewers? Well, that's That's the character. He was he was probably just coming off the set or whatever because he's very kind of Pattington too in his approach to this, but he's the villain, and he's trying to steal this daughter away from Chris Pine And they've got to try and rescue her. That's all it is. It's just to rescue, search and destroy. So it's some so it almost sounds like even though I'm not a Dungeons and Dragons person and you aren't It's entertaining. It's something that you don't have to be into it. Yeah. And Mario brothers is another game that they are are throwing out there this time. 0:06:41And I think it's finding how you can make something that really has no plot have a plot. That's the the goal of all these things. Yeah. I could give you, you know, sorry or scrabble or something as a series or a movie. But what's the plot? You know? And at least with these are adventures of some sort where they're getting to somewhere, they're always on levels. We're always going to another level. With this. And I think that's what you'll find with these. They're realizing they've got to have a plot. 0:07:12Imagine if they did monopoly the the TV show. It would be twenty hours long, and you would just be frustrated and hate yourself at the end of it. At some point, somebody tips the the gameboard. That's how it always I've never finished a game of monopoly ever because somebody gets mad at the person who buys up all of the properties and puts hotels on them and you have no money and so you're just bankrupt. And then they leave and they're mad. They're sitting in another room. And then you've got two people as well. Do we really wanna continue this if it's not we're not having everybody else? And then you just throw the table away. I've never finished it. I've never figured out who is the winner of a monopoly. It's such a frustrating game. 0:07:50I'll I'll play it. My kids love to play it and then I'll get rope and Sure. Sure. That sounds like a grand idea. And I'll be the banker fourteen hours later. I'm just like, why are we doing this? This is the worst decision of by weekend. Right. You need something like Yatze, where it's done after a few roles, and then you're even gonna move by any more. That'll be a good Yatze, the movie. Yatze, the movie. 0:08:13So I've been watching some shows too. Were you a fan or a fan at all of succession on HBO that is back? I well, you know, this is the last year. Right? I was not a hardcore succession person because it reminded me too much of reality. It is. It's like what's going on in the media world beyond us, way beyond us. But you see these it's very fox news ish, I think. It's like the the family that's running all of that. And that's all it is. It's you know, Logan Roy, who's played by Brian Cox, is the head of Waystar RoyCo. 0:08:50And this fourth season just kinda picks up a few months after the end of the third season. So if if you watch the end of the third season, there was a lot of drama his the three younger kids who were looking to kinda up him up end him, the plot was turned, the tables were turned because Shiv's husband, Tom, kind of played the other side, Logan Roy. So it kind of picks up at that point. You know, the three kids are trying to make a deal for a company. The question is, is will they kind of hold him hostage he looks on load, but he's also gonna hold on to his Fox News channel, ATN. He's gonna hold on to that, and he's looking to make a move And then Connor, who's the older son, who's played by Allan Rock, who was Cameron Fry and Ferris Bueller's day off. He's looking to get married, but he's also running for president, and he's polling at, like, one percent. So that's not going well. 0:09:50You know, we're back in the thick of things to session. It's one of my favorite shows that they've done in recent years. It's part of the reason it it's is is succession the best show ever to come off of HBO. No, but it feels like it's just another in a long line of very good programs. Do you see where I will end? I mean, can you see kind of hints that this is the end. Yeah. I mean, my assumption is that we'll get a resolution on the company in somebody's gotta come out on top. You know, whether he sells and the kids take over or or what. 0:10:25But who knows? It could be just you know, like, reality is reality, and sometimes it's just, you know, something will happen at the end, and we're gonna be, like, what happened to Tony Saprano? We'll just cut to black really hard. And and like you know something will happen after it, you're just not gonna do a season five. It it could be, you know, if you may remember Rupert Murdoch just stopped a paper in London. It had so many lawsuits and everything and they just said, we're done. And maybe the ones that they do is they just you know, or somebody gets sent to prison. And then, you know, it's left open. So if they wanted to do a movie, they could do a movie, then you figure out who actually is the one that's running the place. 0:11:02So who knows? Well, I'm glad it's good. It's it's one of those ones that I started watching and I was just too nervous by it because it reminded me too much of everything. And so I just let it go and I'm okay with that. I don't need it, but I know that those who love it are clearly devoted, hopelessly devoted. I am hopelessly devoted. I love it. And I I will I'm gonna be sad when it's off the air because it's just it's one of those programs that It had it even had large gaps in between c's and not just because of the pandemic, but because of the locations they were filming at. 0:11:35So it always felt like season one ended, when is season two coming? Season two ended, when is season three coming? Because it wasn't on that traditional twelve months later, it's coming back. It's coming back at weird intervals. So it just feels good that it's back, and then I'll I'll be sad to see it go It's just great drama. And, you know, it it is the reality, you know, that that, I guess, you don't like. You you wanna get away from the reality. But I I kind of find it fun in just this context of of media and what's going on in the world today. And it's watching entitled people get annoyed about things that, like, what who how is this even a problem in somebody's life? I would love to have that when you're having. 0:12:17Do you like the way they just drop an episode or do you really like when you could binge it? I go back and forth. I mean, I I like the binging concept because it just especially if it's a show that I'm watching with my wife, which is kinda going on right now with Netflix in the night age which I'll I'll mention in a moment. But for a show like this, I I just watched it by myself. She watched season one with me and kinda liked it, and then tapped out in season two. Just really didn't want to keep going with it. So from that perspective as a weekly program, I'm fine with it because we'll watch things together during the week. And then, you know, she goes to bed early and I might stay up a little bit. I'll watch it on my own. So I I don't need to have all ten episodes right there. So I like I like both concepts. 0:13:03It just depends on the program. Do you feel like I've gotta see it right away when they drop it on Sunday night? Or Oh, yeah. Like, kids go to bed. Daddy go to bed. Everybody go to bed. It's Terry Scott. Watching his show now. Right? Everybody leave me alone to tuning into succession. Speaking of, you know, those bingible programs, Netflix dropped one. Kinda out of the blue. I wasn't really looking for it or paying attention for it, but it's called the night agent. And it's trending on Netflix right now. It seems to be pretty popular. It's got some good write ups on rotten tomatoes from from fans and reviewers. 0:13:44So it takes place, like the concept of this, is that there is a FBI agent. He's played by Gabriel Basso. And at the very beginning of it, he prevents a bunch of deaths on a subway explosion. He finds a bomb. Right? But what happens is there's some accusations by conspiracy nutjobs and, you know, was he involved with it? So he kinda has to take a year off and and they fast forward a year to where he's working in the basement of the White House, sitting in a room with a telephone that probably will never ring, but one day it rings. And it's to to take a call from a like a devout agent in the secret agent and to kinda help them through a situation. Meanwhile, you have this other character Lucy Ann Buchanan, who's kind of a newcomer to acting, doesn't really have a whole lot of credits where whereas Gabe Gabbasa, he played J. D. Vance and Hillbelly, LG. So he's been out there before But Lucy Anne, a little bit more of a newcomer, she plays a cybersecurity person entrepreneur who loses her company, you know, so she's got this company at the start, fast forward a year, and she's staying with her relatives, her her aunt and uncle. 0:14:57Who are all of a sudden murdered and she has to make the phone call. They're like, you gotta call this number, get help. And that number goes to Gabriel Baso in the basement. So it's it's a spy thriller. It's pretty intense. You know, it's who's playing? Who? There's the the thought that there's, you know, some some bad actors in the White House. What's gonna happen? It also stars Hung Chow. She plays Diane Far, the White House chief of staff. You would of course know her. She was nominated for best supporting actress in the whale. 0:15:30So we've got a few names in this program. It's pretty good. I I've we've gotten roped in only a couple episodes in I'm not gonna drop any real spoilers. That's just the basic plot development to get you going through the first ten minutes of of episode one. But, yeah, it's it's a pretty good show and and we're gonna keep coming back to it. Did you ever see the Knight Manager Tom Houston. He played the manager of a very high end hotel, and he was also an agent where he was trying to dupe a lot of people that come into the hotel, basically. He had all this access to stuff fascinating series. They're gonna do another season of it. So if you happen to see that floating around, don't confuse the two, but it's very much that kind of duplicity that you wonder about. What's going on here? This is this is kind of fascinating. I'm I'm intrigued. 0:16:22Let me rail for a minute about Netflix. Because they have the worst way of letting people know about something that's coming on. I mean, until you hear people talking about it, you have no clue that these things are popping. And they just will drop and they'll get foreign language series that were huge hits in, you know, whatever is Slavia. And they'll just drop it on there. And then you'll hear everybody talking about this. And maybe that's their their method. But I find it's really kind of undercutting because then you think, well, I'm missing out on something. How come I don't know about this? And then sometimes they'll do way too much where you'll see Adam Sandler on every talk show there is talking about the movie he did and it's okay. So I really wish they would be either a little more discriminating about what they push or help us through it a bit. 0:17:18I don't remember ever getting any messaging because I'll get those emails maybe on a weekly basis saying, you know, based on the shows you've watched, hear something coming to Netflix that you might be interested in. I don't remember ever seeing anything for the night agent. You know, I've seen plenty of other things out there, but that one just we're we're literally out of things to watch because we kind of finished up one show looking for something new and we're just skimming through the Netflix and what's out there and we we kinda got sucked in by a trailer and thought, okay, well, let's let's give it a whirl. The categories that they have and that, you know, when you go to that kind of the directory page, you might like. And then you're thinking, what have I watched that they think I would like this crap? And there's a whole bunch of, like, goofy films that you think, I this is not me. Are you profiling me somehow? I don't know what you're doing. I don't know where you came up that I wanted to see elf part three, but, you know, it's on there. So I that's another thing that just throws me. And then you keep scrolling down because they have different different categories for things. 0:18:24Shows people are talking about. Shows nobody's talking about. Shows you could talk about comedies that you haven't seen in a long time. You want to watch this. Now maybe you want to watch it again. You know what? It just keeps going. You think, oh, please. Please. Please. Please. So be careful what you watch because it might come back to haunt you. Yeah. There's my rant. Was that my rant for the day? That's your that's your rant for the day. But yeah. And, you know, it's funny how Prime Video, which used to be called Amazon Prime, but it's now called Prime Video, have been putting out an awful lot of product. In fact, I've been inundated with a lot of interviews. You'll see as we go along, but they have air coming out this this weekend, which will be huge in theaters. And that's the story of Nike when they pitched Michael Jordan to be their standard bearer for basketball shoes. And fascinating look at a true story with Ben and Matt. That'll be big. But they've got a lot of these other series too where they're remaking things, re kind of molding things. 0:19:31And one of the things that I actually saw was a what they they consider a faith based film. Faith based film. Now, I don't know what that means to most people. I always think, oh, it's a religious film. You're trying to show me a religious film. Is that what it is? But it's not necessarily that. It's it just says that people believe in some kind of higher power. And this one is called on a wing and a prayer. 0:19:59And it's a true story about a a businessman who takes a couple of lessons of flying lessons, but doesn't really, you know, think much of it, and then ends up in a plane with his family and the pilot dies. And he's gotta figure out how do I land this plane. Because I really wasn't paying attention that much when I was, you know, in classes. Because I figured I wouldn't need this. Right? So they get the dead body in the back of the plane, and then he gets behind the in the cockpit and starts trying to figure out how do we land this. And they bring in help from the outside. One of the people they find is somebody who actually flew one of those planes and he's played by Jesse Metcalf. 0:20:47Jesse Metcalfe, you may remember was the gardener, the hunky gardener that Eva Longoria fell for in desperate housewives. And this is his way of trying to move into a different layer of filmmaking. So for him, it was a good move to let people see him as something other than the hunky garter. And then he was on a long time on hallmark channel. He he's been in every Christmas iteration you could find, and he was also in Chesapeake Shores, which was a series that they had on the Hallmark Channel. So I was able to talk to him and we have us his interview, I believe. 0:21:25And you'll find out about what actually happened with on a wing and a prayer. I guess faith based, there's there's that element of Is there divine intervention to perhaps intercede? I think they're pitch on this is there are angels among us who help us through these kinds of situations. And the angels could be even the person on the ground that tells you what button to press at the right time. Gotcha. And the film also, it stars Dennis Quade. Correct? Dennis Quade, Heather Graham. So there are some some big names in this. Yeah. 0:21:55Dennis Quinn plays the the guy who has to pilot the plane. Okay. Heather, the name is his wife. I replaced his wife. And, yeah, and you'll find other you know, they do a little bit before we get into the plane, they do a bit of back story. So you get to see what he's kind of a, I think, a very swaggerish businessman. You know, they're kind of or if you will would say they're kind of full of themselves. So I think it's a humbling experience for him when he gets up in the plane and realizes, hey, I don't know how to do this. He thinks he's a big barbecue guy and He wins barbecue contests and but not they have a huge in the film. They have a huge house that looks impressive, very impressive. And if he's going flying private, come on. He's gonna have a buck or two. Right? Right. End of the film, you get to see the real guy and the real people who helped him out. Okay. 0:22:48So Dennis Quinn, he's it's interesting because he it feels like he's in these types of feel good movies he's done it before. He was in that movie, the rookie, that Disney movie, where he he was a a baseball pitcher. It it was a true story where, you know, he came back at ages like forty, whatever, and made it to the big leagues despite, you know, our injury. So it feels like he likes to do these feel good movies now. He likes to make money too. So I could be behind it. But I'm I'm tired of seeing him in these kinds of roles, to be honest. I'd like to see him as a good old villain because I think he's really good at playing a villain. And you know, maybe he doesn't have to be the star. Maybe he's like the third build, who always is a villain, by the way. If you ever look at a movie, Which one is the villain? Look who's third in the villain? They're always the one who's the villain. So maybe now with your when you're looking at the night agent -- Mhmm. We can see his third build. That's your problem at all right there. But yeah. And he gonna it's it's a feel good one for the holiday weekend and the holiday week. 0:23:56It will be in some theaters and it will also be on Prime Video. So you'll see it on your Amazon Prime channel if you have that. If you bought enough crap on Amazon and you have the free shipping, you'll get this show. So you'll be able to see it. But it's it's nothing complex. It's something that you could watch while you're doing something else. And then you go, okay, that's good. I I understand what was going on there. It's a happy movie for this time of the season. So We have an interview with Jesse Metcalfe, so let's go ahead and listen to that. 0:24:34Have you ever been in an emergency like this in any kind of transportation thing or not? I was on a private plane once where there were some concerns. I wouldn't say it had really gotten to this level. I certainly didn't have to crawl into the cockpit and lay on the plane. But I I understand people's fear of flying. I mean, I started flying at a very early age. My mom would ship me off to my grandparents at, like, six or seven. So I I don't have a fear of flying, like, at all. And actually, you know, after the experience I had, the wonderful experience I had on this home. I'm considering getting my pilot's license. I think it'd be really, really amazing. 0:25:18Yeah. Look how good you are. You can help somebody. Yeah. What is that like when you're going through things and what is this? I don't know what these words are, what they mean. How do you you know, get a grasp on that so that you can convey it in the right way. That's that's a great point. You know, I had to look basically everything up. There's a lot of aviation jargon specifically for my character. And I definitely had to at least have a cursory understanding of what I was talking about. Certainly walked away from this movie with a greater appreciation for aviation and for pilots. 0:25:53When you're sitting there and you're like giving them instructions, who are you talking to? Is somebody else reading the lines of things to you? Or I mean, because you're very into you're good at being intense in those situations. I'm like, Who is he talking to? I'm sure they're not there. Thank you. That's a that's a high compliment. I appreciate that. 0:26:11Generally talking to, you know, either the assistant director or sometimes like you're standing. Really, anyone who's available to read the dialogue off camera and You know, I'll be honest with you. Not a lot of care is is taken when, you know, someone's reading this dialogue off camera. It's usually pretty flat and monotone. You know, you can you can ask them to pump it up a little bit. But it's really, you know, it's our job to bring all that emotion and energy to to our performance, you know. I mean, that's that's what we do as active guy. 0:26:46I didn't get to meet I didn't get to meet Carrie, unfortunately. Hopefully, I'll get to meet him in the future, but I just basically looked up everything I could find on him, print interviews, what little video there was of him out there, I mean, the picture that was painted of him within our script was more than enough for me to grab hold of as an actor. Sure. You know, this coming at this time in your career, what is that telling you? Is it are you going in another direction? Is there something new that we're seeing with this film? Well, it's funny that you asked that. I mean, that's the plan. I mean, you know, I definitely want want to move away from the matinee Idol and move into more serious roles and, you know, work with you know, more producers and directors that I that I really respect. I mean, such a great team on this project with Roman Downey, Autumn Bailey Ford, Sean McNamara, who I I had previously worked with, and I was really excited to get the opportunity to work with again. I think it was just it was the right team on this one with the right script and I'm really proud of what they produced. 0:27:54I mean, it's a very watchable movie that really keeps you on the edge of your seat. You know, they talk about this being a faith film or a faith based film. And I don't think that it's you know, I wouldn't use those terms for it. I think the faith is is underlying. Absolutely. But it isn't something that hits you over the head. You know what I mean? We're a lot of those things, they're like, oh, I'm not going to that. No. No. I I agree with you completely. I mean, honestly, I don't I don't consider this faith based movie at all. And I I think this this movie is of the caliber that, you know, could have gotten a theatrical release. I mean, it's just it's It's a different landscape these days. Very happy to have been picked up by Amazon Prime Video. They're really behind the movie. Yeah. I mean, you know, when people believe in a project and they know that the the the the content is good, I mean, it's just it's a it's a good feeling, you know, to have to have that kind of momentum. 0:28:51Take me back to those days of desperate housewives. How how really unreal was that? I was it was incredibly unreal. I didn't anticipate the success of that show at all. Coming off of daytime television, moving into a nighttime show, but that felt very daytime. It was a easy transition. I mean, look, it wasn't the most challenging role in the world, but I tried to bring, you know, your vulnerability and and depth to the role. But, I mean, it was a it was a whirlwind, you know, that just, like, kinda swept me right off my feet. I didn't anticipate the success. 0:29:30And to still be talking about the show twenty years later, I mean, I guess it's achieved some level of, you know, iconic television status which is something I'm, you know, I'm I'm proud to have been part of. Did it did it just kind of throw you coming so early in your career? Or was it You know, I I I had been in the business for for five years on daytime television, but, I mean, you know, daytime television and primetime are just, you know, their their night and day. Right. They they really are. You can we can work on daytime your entire career and he, you know, the average person might might not know your name. You know, so to to become a household name pretty much overnight was was definitely interesting. 0:30:17Was it good to learn those lessons early on? Or do you say, oh, I'd be much more prepared now if I had that, like, real heat? Well, hindsight is twenty twenty, you know. So I I'd be much more prepared now, definitely. And I'd like to think you know, I'll I'll have some of those big opportunities again. I I mean, I'd like to believe that that the best of my career is is still ahead of me here. You know? Yeah. I I know I know I know I'm ready for it now. That's for sure. All we need to look at is this year's best picture winner and you look at those people and you say, all of them were at some point told you're out of the game and look at them now. They're on top of the game. So it's just It's very it's very only one project away, you know? Right. This could be yours. You never know. 0:31:06Then you you have your kind of I I I love to see these different periods that you've had. You have your hallmark period. What is that world like? Well, I mean, the hallmark channel was very very good to me. They allowed me to executive produce some projects with them and kinda, you know, be involved in the creative and the casting of those projects. I really learned a lot during my hallmark period. And, you know, I'm I'm proud of a a lot of the work that I created during that period as well with this show that I did for them called Chesapeake shores where I played, performed, and wrote some of the music for the show. Right. I mean, you know, I I give a hundred and ten percent to everything that I do. I mean, I I'm one of those actors that really cares. Maybe I care a little too much, but, you know, I like to look back at different periods, as you say, and and be proud of those periods. So, you know, that that was a great time in my career. 0:32:06In the learning process, do you go, oh, that's something I'll never do again? Or is it, okay, this is how I would change those things up if I did this again? Well, there's always lessons. You have to find the lessons in everything you do in life. But specifically in this business, You know? I mean, you wanna continue to become a better actor. You know, I I am very interested in doing more producing and executive producing. So you know, you have to learn those lessons, but it's really about it's it's it's it's about relationships and it's a it's a it's a very people oriented business. It's a collaborative art form and you have to work well with others. And, you know, I mean, those are the best lessons, I think. 0:32:50What is it like when you wanna create something? Is it hard to actually get others on board with you? Or what do you to me, it'd be a big sales job. I'd have to sell others on my vision and I don't know that I could do it. While producing is a big sales job, isn't it? You know, I mean, generally, you're trying to find financing for ideas that you have. And that that can be a little soul sucking at times because as artists, you know, we don't wanna be, you know, making phone calls and sending emails begging people for money. You know, but there's also some great facets to executive producing or producing as well, you know, kind of like being in charge of the entire picture. 0:33:33Which sometimes, you know, when you're just an actor on a project, you know, hire to do one specific thing, it can be a little limiting. Specifically when you see things that could be better or, you know, maybe, you know, holes in a story that could be patched up and you have ideas for that, you're not always you're not always in the position to share those ideas. Would would you ever not act? Would that ever be in the cards? Would I ever not act? Yeah. Yeah. I think I think that could be in the cards. I I think I would like to move behind the camera, you know, specifically in producing roles. And and and I have I have an interest in directing. I mean, I went to New York University for writing and directing teach school of the arts But over the over the years, I've seen how much work directing is. I mean, you're literally, you know, the first person on the set, the last person to leave and up all night preparing. So, you know, I I think producing might be my lane. Better. Yeah. Is another thing. 0:34:36You know, and how they I forgive me for not knowing what this is like, but when they're judging you to to cast you in a role, based on a look, how how do you deal with that? I I would find that very difficult. Well, a lot of people say that there's a lot of rejection in our business, but I think you can't look at not getting a role as rejection. Because getting a role is like finding a needle in a haystack. You know, there's so many variables as to what our producers and directors and casting directors are looking or for a specific role. So I think, you know, you have to just put yourself out there, give the best audition possible, and if it doesn't go your way, just let it go. I mean, easier said than done, but dealing with the rejection would be the very difficult thing. Well, why wasn't I right for this. Exactly. I mean, hey, nobody likes dealing with with rejection, but that's life. It's life. Right? 0:35:32What's next then after this? Are you already working on something? Well, I have two other films coming out this year. I mean, three, actually. One's called the comic shop. Which is kind of like a Kevin Smith esque story about a disgruntled comic book store owner who had some trials and tribulations in his life. It's kind of a interesting story. Then I have another one that's on the festival circuit right now called the Latin from Manhattan. And then I have a a a a a VC Andrew series of movies coming out on a lifetime where I I play dad in the early sixties. So it's it's my first dad role, so I'm kind of excited about that. 0:36:13See, I've seen -- Oh. -- I've seen -- Oh. -- I've seen -- Oh. -- I've seen -- Oh. -- I've seen -- I've seen -- I've seen -- -- I've seen -- -- I've seen -- I've seen -- I've seen -- wonk long. I've I've seen some of the footage actually doing a ADR for the for the movies and I I play opposite this adorable you know, effervescent actor of Breck Bassinger, who's from from the series star girl. I play her father And it's very, very charming actually. I'm I was really, really pleased with it. I'm excited for people to see it. 0:36:40Well, you know, if we're ever on a plane together and something happens, I'm calling you into action here. You're gonna be helping land the plane Okay. I know nothing about that. You might wanna call Dennis, but hey, you know. Yeah. I would run up and down the aisles going, no, we can't do this. This is not good. This is terrible, but it was very fun to watch you in this. I enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Alright, Bruce. Thank you for that interview. What else do we have on top? Coming up. Big big big kind of surprising thing. Rachel vice, Oscar winner, Rachel vice. 0:37:16Is in a new adaptation of dead rangers. It's about twins who are in the birthing business, if you will, and if you may remember Jeremy Irons started in this film in the nineties. It was a David Cronenburg film Well, now, Rachel has the part where she plays two characters. And she's trying to get this clinic off the ground, a birthing center. And she has to appeal to various and sundry people and how it's a very kind of political world to be in the medical field, but it's also really, really creepy. So when you see this, you'll see the creep factor. One of the people we talk to is Poppy Lou who plays their kind of assistant, and she has a big handle on the differences between Beverly and Elliot Mantel. So we'll have that next week and we'll talk about some other kind of creepy ones that aren't coming. Alright. That sounds good. So we'll look forward to that. Thank you everyone for listening to another episode of streamed and screened.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For 4 hours, I tried to come up reasons for why AI might not kill us all, and Eliezer Yudkowsky explained why I was wrong.We also discuss his call to halt AI, why LLMs make alignment harder, what it would take to save humanity, his millions of words of sci-fi, and much more.If you want to get to the crux of the conversation, fast forward to 2:35:00 through 3:43:54. Here we go through and debate the main reasons I still think doom is unlikely.Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here. Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.As always, the most helpful thing you can do is just to share the podcast - send it to friends, group chats, Twitter, Reddit, forums, and wherever else men and women of fine taste congregate.If you have the means and have enjoyed my podcast, I would appreciate your support via a paid subscriptions on Substack.Timestamps(0:00:00) - TIME article(0:09:06) - Are humans aligned?(0:37:35) - Large language models(1:07:15) - Can AIs help with alignment?(1:30:17) - Society's response to AI(1:44:42) - Predictions (or lack thereof)(1:56:55) - Being Eliezer(2:13:06) - Othogonality(2:35:00) - Could alignment be easier than we think?(3:02:15) - What will AIs want?(3:43:54) - Writing fiction & whether rationality helps you winTranscriptTIME articleDwarkesh Patel 0:00:51Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Eliezer Yudkowsky. Eliezer, thank you so much for coming out to the Lunar Society.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:01:00You're welcome.Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:01Yesterday, when we're recording this, you had an article in Time calling for a moratorium on further AI training runs. My first question is — It's probably not likely that governments are going to adopt some sort of treaty that restricts AI right now. So what was the goal with writing it?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:01:25I thought that this was something very unlikely for governments to adopt and then all of my friends kept on telling me — “No, no, actually, if you talk to anyone outside of the tech industry, they think maybe we shouldn't do that.” And I was like — All right, then. I assumed that this concept had no popular support. Maybe I assumed incorrectly. It seems foolish and to lack dignity to not even try to say what ought to be done. There wasn't a galaxy-brained purpose behind it. I think that over the last 22 years or so, we've seen a great lack of galaxy brained ideas playing out successfully.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:05Has anybody in the government reached out to you, not necessarily after the article but just in general, in a way that makes you think that they have the broad contours of the problem correct?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:02:15No. I'm going on reports that normal people are more willing than the people I've been previously talking to, to entertain calls that this is a bad idea and maybe you should just not do that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:30That's surprising to hear, because I would have assumed that the people in Silicon Valley who are weirdos would be more likely to find this sort of message. They could kind of rocket the whole idea that AI will make nanomachines that take over. It's surprising to hear that normal people got the message first.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:02:47Well, I hesitate to use the term midwit but maybe this was all just a midwit thing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:54All right. So my concern with either the 6 month moratorium or forever moratorium until we solve alignment is that at this point, it could make it seem to people like we're crying wolf. And it would be like crying wolf because these systems aren't yet at a point at which they're dangerous. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:03:13And nobody is saying they are. I'm not saying they are. The open letter signatories aren't saying they are.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:20So if there is a point at which we can get the public momentum to do some sort of stop, wouldn't it be useful to exercise it when we get a GPT-6? And who knows what it's capable of. Why do it now?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:03:32Because allegedly, and we will see, people right now are able to appreciate that things are storming ahead a bit faster than the ability to ensure any sort of good outcome for them. And you could be like — “Ah, yes. We will play the galaxy-brained clever political move of trying to time when the popular support will be there.” But again, I heard rumors that people were actually completely open to the concept of  let's stop. So again, I'm just trying to say it. And it's not clear to me what happens if we wait for GPT-5 to say it. I don't actually know what GPT-5 is going to be like. It has been very hard to call the rate at which these systems acquire capability as they are trained to larger and larger sizes and more and more tokens. GPT-4 is a bit beyond in some ways where I thought this paradigm was going to scale. So I don't actually know what happens if GPT-5 is built. And even if GPT-5 doesn't end the world, which I agree is like more than 50% of where my probability mass lies, maybe that's enough time for GPT-4.5 to get ensconced everywhere and in everything, and for it actually to be harder to call a stop, both politically and technically. There's also the point that training algorithms keep improving. If we put a hard limit on the total computes and training runs right now, these systems would still get more capable over time as the algorithms improved and got more efficient. More oomph per floating point operation, and things would still improve, but slower. And if you start that process off at the GPT-5 level, where I don't actually know how capable that is exactly, you may have a bunch less lifeline left before you get into dangerous territory.Dwarkesh Patel 0:05:46The concern is then that — there's millions of GPUs out there in the world. The actors who would be willing to cooperate or who could even be identified in order to get the government to make them cooperate, would potentially be the ones that are most on the message. And so what you're left with is a system where they stagnate for six months or a year or however long this lasts. And then what is the game plan? Is there some plan by which if we wait a few years, then alignment will be solved? Do we have some sort of timeline like that?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:06:18Alignment will not be solved in a few years. I would hope for something along the lines of human intelligence enhancement works. I do not think they're going to have the timeline for genetically engineered humans to work but maybe? This is why I mentioned in the Time letter that if I had infinite capability to dictate the laws that there would be a carve-out on biology, AI that is just for biology and not trained on text from the internet. Human intelligence enhancement, make people smarter. Making people smarter has a chance of going right in a way that making an extremely smart AI does not have a realistic chance of going right at this point. If we were on a sane planet, what the sane planet does at this point is shut it all down and work on human intelligence enhancement. I don't think we're going to live in that sane world. I think we are all going to die. But having heard that people are more open to this outside of California, it makes sense to me to just try saying out loud what it is that you do on a saner planet and not just assume that people are not going to do that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:07:30In what percentage of the worlds where humanity survives is there human enhancement? Like even if there's 1% chance humanity survives, is that entire branch dominated by the worlds where there's some sort of human intelligence enhancement?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:07:39I think we're just mainly in the territory of Hail Mary passes at this point, and human intelligence enhancement is one Hail Mary pass. Maybe you can put people in MRIs and train them using neurofeedback to be a little saner, to not rationalize so much. Maybe you can figure out how to have something light up every time somebody is working backwards from what they want to be true to what they take as their premises. Maybe you can just fire off little lights and teach people not to do that so much. Maybe the GPT-4 level systems can be RLHF'd (reinforcement learning from human feedback) into being consistently smart, nice and charitable in conversation and just unleash a billion of them on Twitter and just have them spread sanity everywhere. I do worry that this is not going to be the most profitable use of the technology, but you're asking me to list out Hail Mary passes and that's what I'm doing. Maybe you can actually figure out how to take a brain, slice it, scan it, simulate it, run uploads and upgrade the uploads, or run the uploads faster. These are also quite dangerous things, but they do not have the utter lethality of artificial intelligence.Are humans aligned?Dwarkesh Patel 0:09:06All right, that's actually a great jumping point into the next topic I want to talk to you about. Orthogonality. And here's my first question — Speaking of human enhancement, suppose you bred human beings to be friendly and cooperative, but also more intelligent. I claim that over many generations you would just have really smart humans who are also really friendly and cooperative. Would you disagree with that analogy? I'm sure you're going to disagree with this analogy, but I just want to understand why?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:09:31The main thing is that you're starting from minds that are already very, very similar to yours. You're starting from minds, many of which already exhibit the characteristics that you want. There are already many people in the world, I hope, who are nice in the way that you want them to be nice. Of course, it depends on how nice you want exactly. I think that if you actually go start trying to run a project of selectively encouraging some marriages between particular people and encouraging them to have children, you will rapidly find, as one does in any such process that when you select on the stuff you want, it turns out there's a bunch of stuff correlated with it and that you're not changing just one thing. If you try to make people who are inhumanly nice, who are nicer than anyone has ever been before, you're going outside the space that human psychology has previously evolved and adapted to deal with, and weird stuff will happen to those people. None of this is very analogous to AI. I'm just pointing out something along the lines of — well, taking your analogy at face value, what would happen exactly? It's the sort of thing where you could maybe do it, but there's all kinds of pitfalls that you'd probably find out about if you cracked open a textbook on animal breeding.Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:13The thing you mentioned initially, which is that we are starting off with basic human psychology, that we are fine tuning with breeding. Luckily, the current paradigm of AI is  — you have these models that are trained on human text and I would assume that this would give you a starting point of something like human psychology.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:11:31Why do you assume that?Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:33Because they're trained on human text.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:11:34And what does that do?Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:36Whatever thoughts and emotions that lead to the production of human text need to be simulated in the AI in order to produce those results.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:11:44I see. So if you take an actor and tell them to play a character, they just become that person. You can tell that because you see somebody on screen playing Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and that's probably just actually Buffy in there. That's who that is.Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:05I think a better analogy is if you have a child and you tell him — Hey, be this way. They're more likely to just be that way instead of putting on an act for 20 years or something.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:12:18It depends on what you're telling them to be exactly. Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:20You're telling them to be nice.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:12:22Yeah, but that's not what you're telling them to do. You're telling them to play the part of an alien, something with a completely inhuman psychology as extrapolated by science fiction authors, and in many cases done by computers because humans can't quite think that way. And your child eventually manages to learn to act that way. What exactly is going on in there now? Are they just the alien or did they pick up the rhythm of what you're asking them to imitate and be like — “Ah yes, I see who I'm supposed to pretend to be.” Are they actually a person or are they pretending? That's true even if you're not asking them to be an alien. My parents tried to raise me Orthodox Jewish and that did not take at all. I learned to pretend. I learned to comply. I hated every minute of it. Okay, not literally every minute of it. I should avoid saying untrue things. I hated most minutes of it. Because they were trying to show me a way to be that was alien to my own psychology and the religion that I actually picked up was from the science fiction books instead, as it were. I'm using religion very metaphorically here, more like ethos, you might say. I was raised with science fiction books I was reading from my parents library and Orthodox Judaism. The ethos of the science fiction books rang truer in my soul and so that took in, the Orthodox Judaism didn't. But the Orthodox Judaism was what I had to imitate, was what I had to pretend to be, was the answers I had to give whether I believed them or not. Because otherwise you get punished.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:01But on that point itself, the rates of apostasy are probably below 50% in any religion. Some people do leave but often they just become the thing they're imitating as a child.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:14:12Yes, because the religions are selected to not have that many apostates. If aliens came in and introduced their religion, you'd get a lot more apostates.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:19Right. But I think we're probably in a more virtuous situation with ML because these systems are regularized through stochastic gradient descent. So the system that is pretending to be something where there's multiple layers of interpretation is going to be more complex than the one that is just being the thing. And over time, the system that is just being the thing will be optimized, right? It'll just be simpler.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:14:42This seems like an ordinate cope. For one thing, you're not training it to be any one particular person. You're training it to switch masks to anyone on the Internet as soon as they figure out who that person on the internet is. If I put the internet in front of you and I was like — learn to predict the next word over and over. You do not just turn into a random human because the random human is not what's best at predicting the next word of everyone who's ever been on the internet. You learn to very rapidly pick up on the cues of what sort of person is talking, what will they say next? You memorize so many facts just because they're helpful in predicting the next word. You learn all kinds of patterns, you learn all the languages. You learn to switch rapidly from being one kind of person or another as the conversation that you are predicting changes who is speaking. This is not a human we're describing. You are not training a human there.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:43Would you at least say that we are living in a better situation than one in which we have some sort of black box where you have a machiavellian fittest survive simulation that produces AI? This situation is at least more likely to produce alignment than one in which something that is completely untouched by human psychology would produce?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:16:06More likely? Yes. Maybe you're an order of magnitude likelier. 0% instead of 0%. Getting stuff to be more likely does not help you if the baseline is nearly zero. The whole training set up there is producing an actress, a predictor. It's not actually being put into the kind of ancestral situation that evolved humans, nor the kind of modern situation that raises humans. Though to be clear, raising it like a human wouldn't help, But you're giving it a very alien problem that is not what humans solve and it is solving that problem not in the way a human would.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:44Okay, so how about this. I can see that I certainly don't know for sure what is going on in these systems. In fact, obviously nobody does. But that also goes through you. Could it not just be that reinforcement learning works and all these other things we're trying somehow work and actually just being an actor produces some sort of benign outcome where there isn't that level of simulation and conniving?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:17:15I think it predictably breaks down as you try to make the system smarter, as you try to derive sufficiently useful work from it. And in particular, the sort of work where some other AI doesn't just kill you off six months later. Yeah, I think the present system is not smart enough to have a deep conniving actress thinking long strings of coherent thoughts about how to predict the next word. But as the mask that it wears, as the people it is pretending to be get smarter and smarter, I think that at some point the thing in there that is predicting how humans plan, predicting how humans talk, predicting how humans think, and needing to be at least as smart as the human it is predicting in order to do that, I suspect at some point there is a new coherence born within the system and something strange starts happening. I think that if you have something that can accurately predict Eliezer Yudkowsky, to use a particular example I know quite well, you've got to be able to do the kind of thinking where you are reflecting on yourself and that in order to simulate Eliezer Yudkowsky reflecting on himself, you need to be able to do that kind of thinking. This is not airtight logic but I expect there to be a discount factor. If you ask me to play a part of somebody who's quite unlike me, I think there's some amount of penalty that the character I'm playing gets to his intelligence because I'm secretly back there simulating him. That's even if we're quite similar and the stranger they are, the more unfamiliar the situation, the less the person I'm playing is as smart as I am and the more they are dumber than I am. So similarly, I think that if you get an AI that's very, very good at predicting what Eliezer says, I think that there's a quite alien mind doing that, and it actually has to be to some degree smarter than me in order to play the role of something that thinks differently from how it does very, very accurately. And I reflect on myself, I think about how my thoughts are not good enough by my own standards and how I want to rearrange my own thought processes. I look at the world and see it going the way I did not want it to go, and asking myself how could I change this world? I look around at other humans and I model them, and sometimes I try to persuade them of things. These are all capabilities that the system would then be somewhere in there. And I just don't trust the blind hope that all of that capability is pointed entirely at pretending to be Eliezer and only exists insofar as it's the mirror and isomorph of Eliezer. That all the prediction is by being something exactly like me and not thinking about me while not being me.Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:55I certainly don't want to claim that it is guaranteed that there isn't something super alien and something against our aims happening within the shoggoth. But you made an earlier claim which seemed much stronger than the idea that you don't want blind hope, which is that we're going from 0% probability to an order of magnitude greater at 0% probability. There's a difference between saying that we should be wary and that there's no hope, right? I could imagine so many things that could be happening in the shoggoth's brain, especially in our level of confusion and mysticism over what is happening. One example is, let's say that it kind of just becomes the average of all human psychology and motives.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:21:41But it's not the average. It is able to be every one of those people. That's very different from being the average. It's very different from being an average chess player versus being able to predict every chess player in the database. These are very different things.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:56Yeah, no, I meant in terms of motives that it is the average where it can simulate any given human. I'm not saying that's the most likely one, I'm just saying it's one possibility.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:22:08What.. Why? It just seems 0% probable to me. Like the motive is going to be like some weird funhouse mirror thing of — I want to predict very accurately.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:19Right. Why then are we so sure that whatever drives that come about because of this motive are going to be incompatible with the survival and flourishing with humanity?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:22:30Most drives when you take a loss function and splinter it into things correlated with it and then amp up intelligence until some kind of strange coherence is born within the thing and then ask it how it would want to self modify or what kind of successor system it would build. Things that alien ultimately end up wanting the universe to be some particular way such that humans are not a solution to the question of how to make the universe most that way. The thing that very strongly wants to predict text, even if you got that goal into the system exactly which is not what would happen, The universe with the most predictable text is not a universe that has humans in it. Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:19Okay. I'm not saying this is the most likely outcome. Here's an example of one of many ways in which humans stay around despite this motive. Let's say that in order to predict human output really well, it needs humans around to give it the raw data from which to improve its predictions or something like that. This is not something I think individually is likely…Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:23:40If the humans are no longer around, you no longer need to predict them. Right, so you don't need the data required to predict themDwarkesh Patel 0:23:46Because you are starting off with that motivation you want to just maximize along that loss function or have that drive that came about because of the loss function.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:23:57I'm confused. So look, you can always develop arbitrary fanciful scenarios in which the AI has some contrived motive that it can only possibly satisfy by keeping humans alive in good health and comfort and turning all the nearby galaxies into happy, cheerful places full of high functioning galactic civilizations. But as soon as your sentence has more than like five words in it, its probability has dropped to basically zero because of all the extra details you're padding in.Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:31Maybe let's return to this. Another train of thought I want to follow is — I claim that humans have not become orthogonal to the sort of evolutionary process that produced them.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:24:46Great. I claim humans are increasingly orthogonal and the further they go out of distribution and the smarter they get, the more orthogonal they get to inclusive genetic fitness, the sole loss function on which humans were optimized.Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:03Most humans still want kids and have kids and care for their kin. Certainly there's some angle between how humans operate today. Evolution would prefer us to use less condoms and more sperm banks. But there's like 10 billion of us and there's going to be more in the future. We haven't divorced that far from what our alleles would want.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:25:28It's a question of how far out of distribution are you? And the smarter you are, the more out of distribution you get. Because as you get smarter, you get new options that are further from the options that you are faced with in the ancestral environment that you were optimized over. Sure, a lot of people want kids, not inclusive genetic fitness, but kids. They want kids similar to them maybe, but they don't want the kids to have their DNA or their alleles or their genes. So suppose I go up to somebody and credibly say, we will assume away the ridiculousness of this offer for the moment, your kids could be a bit smarter and much healthier if you'll just let me replace their DNA with this alternate storage method that will age more slowly. They'll be healthier, they won't have to worry about DNA damage, they won't have to worry about the methylation on the DNA flipping and the cells de-differentiating as they get older. We've got this stuff that replaces DNA and your kid will still be similar to you, it'll be a bit smarter and they'll be so much healthier and even a bit more cheerful. You just have to replace all the DNA with a stronger substrate and rewrite all the information on it. You know, the old school transhumanist offer really. And I think that a lot of the people who want kids would go for this new offer that just offers them so much more of what it is they want from kids than copying the DNA, than inclusive genetic fitness.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:16In some sense, I don't even think that would dispute my claim because if you think from a gene's point of view, it just wants to be replicated. If it's replicated in another substrate that's still okay.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:27:25No, we're not saving the information. We're doing a total rewrite to the DNA.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:30I actually claim that most humans would not accept that offer.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:27:33Yeah, because it would sound weird. But I think the smarter they are, the more likely they are to go for it if it's credible. I mean, if you assume away the credibility issue and the weirdness issue. Like all their friends are doing it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:52Yeah. Even if the smarter they are the more likely they're to do it, most humans are not that smart. From the gene's point of view it doesn't really matter how smart you are, right? It just matters if you're producing copies.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:28:03No. The smart thing is kind of like a delicate issue here because somebody could always be like — I would never take that offer. And then I'm like “Yeah…”. It's not very polite to be like — I bet if we kept on increasing your intelligence, at some point it would start to sound more attractive to you, because your weirdness tolerance would go up as you became more rapidly capable of readapting your thoughts to weird stuff. The weirdness would start to seem less unpleasant and more like you were moving within a space that you already understood. But you can sort of avoid all that and maybe should by being like — suppose all your friends were doing it. What if it was normal? What if we remove the weirdness and remove any credibility problems in that hypothetical case? Do people choose for their kids to be dumber, sicker, less pretty out of some sentimental idealistic attachment to using Deoxyribose Nucleic Acid instead of the particular information encoding their cells as supposed to be like the new improved cells from Alpha-Fold 7?Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:21I would claim that they would but we don't really know. I claim that they would be more averse to that, you probably think that they would be less averse to that. Regardless of that, we can just go by the evidence we do have in that we are already way out of distribution of the ancestral environment. And even in this situation, the place where we do have evidence, people are still having kids. We haven't gone that orthogonal.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:29:44We haven't gone that smart. What you're saying is — Look, people are still making more of their DNA in a situation where nobody has offered them a way to get all the stuff they want without the DNA. So of course they haven't tossed DNA out the window.Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:59Yeah. First of all, I'm not even sure what would happen in that situation. I still think even most smart humans in that situation might disagree, but we don't know what would happen in that situation. Why not just use the evidence we have so far?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:30:10PCR. You right now, could get some of you and make like a whole gallon jar full of your own DNA. Are you doing that? No. Misaligned. Misaligned.Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:23I'm down with transhumanism. I'm going to have my kids use the new cells and whatever.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:30:27Oh, so we're all talking about these hypothetical other people I think would make the wrong choice.Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:32Well, I wouldn't say wrong, but different. And I'm just saying there's probably more of them than there are of us.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:30:37What if, like, I say that I have more faith in normal people than you do to toss DNA out the window as soon as somebody offers them a happy, healthier life for their kids?Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:46I'm not even making a moral point. I'm just saying I don't know what's going to happen in the future. Let's just look at the evidence we have so far, humans. If that's the evidence you're going to present for something that's out of distribution and has gone orthogonal, that has actually not happened. This is evidence for hope. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:31:00Because we haven't yet had options as far enough outside of the ancestral distribution that in the course of choosing what we most want that there's no DNA left.Dwarkesh Patel 0:31:10Okay. Yeah, I think I understand.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:31:12But you yourself say, “Oh yeah, sure, I would choose that.” and I myself say, “Oh yeah, sure, I would choose that.” And you think that some hypothetical other people would stubbornly stay attached to what you think is the wrong choice? First of all, I think maybe you're being a bit condescending there. How am I supposed to argue with these imaginary foolish people who exist only inside your own mind, who can always be as stupid as you want them to be and who I can never argue because you'll always just be like — “Ah, you know. They won't be persuaded by that.” But right here in this room, the site of this videotaping, there is no counter evidence that smart enough humans will toss DNA out the window as soon as somebody makes them a sufficiently better offer.Dwarkesh Patel 0:31:55I'm not even saying it's stupid. I'm just saying they're not weirdos like me and you.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:32:01Weird is relative to intelligence. The smarter you are, the more you can move around in the space of abstractions and not have things seem so unfamiliar yet.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:11But let me make the claim that in fact we're probably in an even better situation than we are with evolution because when we're designing these systems, we're doing it in a deliberate, incremental and in some sense a little bit transparent way. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:32:27No, no, not yet, not now. Nobody's being careful and deliberate now, but maybe at some point in the indefinite future people will be careful and deliberate. Sure, let's grant that premise. Keep going.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:37Well, it would be like a weak god who is just slightly omniscient being able to strike down any guy he sees pulling out. Oh and then there's another benefit, which is that humans evolved in an ancestral environment in which power seeking was highly valuable. Like if you're in some sort of tribe or something.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:32:59Sure, lots of instrumental values made their way into us but even more strange, warped versions of them make their way into our intrinsic motivations.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:09Yeah, even more so than the current loss functions have.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:33:10Really? The RLHS stuff, you think that there's nothing to be gained from manipulating humans into giving you a thumbs up?Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:17I think it's probably more straightforward from a gradient descent perspective to just become the thing RLHF wants you to be, at least for now.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:33:24Where are you getting this?Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:25Because it just kind of regularizes these sorts of extra abstractions you might want to put onEliezer Yudkowsky 0:33:30Natural selection regularizes so much harder than gradient descent in that way. It's got an enormously stronger information bottleneck. Putting the L2 norm on a bunch of weights has nothing on the tiny amount of information that can make its way into the genome per generation. The regularizers on natural selection are enormously stronger.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:51Yeah. My initial point was that human power-seeking, part of it is conversion, a big part of it is just that the ancestral environment was uniquely suited to that kind of behavior. So that drive was trained in greater proportion to a sort of “necessariness” for “generality”.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:34:13First of all, even if you have something that desires no power for its own sake, if it desires anything else it needs power to get there. Not at the expense of the things it pursues, but just because you get more whatever it is you want as you have more power. And sufficiently smart things know that. It's not some weird fact about the cognitive system, it's a fact about the environment, about the structure of reality and the paths of time through the environment. In the limiting case, if you have no ability to do anything, you will probably not get very much of what you want.Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:53Imagine a situation like in an ancestral environment, if some human starts exhibiting power seeking behavior before he realizes that he should try to hide it, we just kill him off. And the friendly cooperative ones, we let them breed more. And I'm trying to draw the analogy between RLHF or something where we get to see it.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:35:12Yeah, I think my concern is that that works better when the things you're breeding are stupider than you as opposed to when they are smarter than you. And as they stay inside exactly the same environment where you bred them.Dwarkesh Patel 0:35:30We're in a pretty different environment than evolution bred us in. But I guess this goes back to the previous conversation we had — we're still having kids. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:35:36Because nobody's made them an offer for better kids with less DNADwarkesh Patel 0:35:43Here's what I think is the problem. I can just look out of the world and see this is what it looks like. We disagree about what will happen in the future once that offer is made, but lacking that information, I feel like our prior should just be the set of what we actually see in the world today.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:35:55Yeah I think in that case, we should believe that the dates on the calendars will never show 2024. Every single year throughout human history, in the 13.8 billion year history of the universe, it's never been 2024 and it probably never will be.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:10The difference is that we have very strong reasons for expecting the turn of the year.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:36:19Are you extrapolating from your past data to outside the range of data?Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:24Yes, I think we have a good reason to. I don't think human preferences are as predictable as dates.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:36:29Yeah, they're somewhat less so. Sorry, why not jump on this one? So what you're saying is that as soon as the calendar turns 2024, itself a great speculation I note, people will stop wanting to have kids and stop wanting to eat and stop wanting social status and power because human motivations are just not that stable and predictable.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:51No. That's not what I'm claiming at all. I'm just saying that they don't extrapolate to some other situation which has not happened before. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:36:59Like the clock showing 2024?Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:01What is an example here? Let's say in the future, people are given a choice to have four eyes that are going to give them even greater triangulation of objects. I wouldn't assume that they would choose to have four eyes.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:37:16Yeah. There's no established preference for four eyes.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:18Is there an established preference for transhumanism and wanting your DNA modified?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:37:22There's an established preference for people going to some lengths to make their kids healthier, not necessarily via the options that they would have later, but the options that they do have now.Large language modelsDwarkesh Patel 0:37:35Yeah. We'll see, I guess, when that technology becomes available. Let me ask you about LLMs. So what is your position now about whether these things can get us to AGI?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:37:47I don't know. I was previously like — I don't think stack more layers does this. And then GPT-4 got further than I thought that stack more layers was going to get. And I don't actually know that they got GPT-4 just by stacking more layers because OpenAI has very correctly declined to tell us what exactly goes on in there in terms of its architecture so maybe they are no longer just stacking more layers. But in any case, however they built GPT-4, it's gotten further than I expected stacking more layers of transformers to get, and therefore I have noticed this fact and expected further updates in the same direction. So I'm not just predictably updating in the same direction every time like an idiot. And now I do not know. I am no longer willing to say that GPT-6 does not end the world.Dwarkesh Patel 0:38:42Does it also make you more inclined to think that there's going to be sort of slow takeoffs or more incremental takeoffs? Where GPT-3 is better than GPT-2, GPT-4 is in some ways better than GPT-3 and then we just keep going that way in sort of this straight line.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:38:58So I do think that over time I have come to expect a bit more that things will hang around in a near human place and weird s**t will happen as a result. And my failure review where I look back and ask — was that a predictable sort of mistake? I feel like it was to some extent maybe a case of — you're always going to get capabilities in some order and it was much easier to visualize the endpoint where you have all the capabilities than where you have some of the capabilities. And therefore my visualizations were not dwelling enough on a space we'd predictably in retrospect have entered into later where things have some capabilities but not others and it's weird. I do think that, in 2012, I would not have called that large language models were the way and the large language models are in some way more uncannily semi-human than what I would justly have predicted in 2012 knowing only what I knew then. But broadly speaking, yeah, I do feel like GPT-4 is already kind of hanging out for longer in a weird, near-human space than I was really visualizing. In part, that's because it's so incredibly hard to visualize or predict correctly in advance when it will happen, which is, in retrospect, a bias.Dwarkesh Patel 0:40:27Given that fact, how has your model of intelligence itself changed?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:40:31Very little.Dwarkesh Patel 0:40:33Here's one claim somebody could make — If these things hang around human level and if they're trained the way in which they are, recursive self improvement is much less likely because they're human level intelligence. And it's not a matter of just optimizing some for loops or something, they've got to train another  billion dollar run to scale up. So that kind of recursive self intelligence idea is less likely. How do you respond?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:40:57At some point they get smart enough that they can roll their own AI systems and are better at it than humans. And that is the point at which you definitely start to see foom. Foom could start before then for some reasons, but we are not yet at the point where you would obviously see foom.Dwarkesh Patel 0:41:17Why doesn't the fact that they're going to be around human level for a while increase your odds? Or does it increase your odds of human survival? Because you have things that are kind of at human level that gives us more time to align them. Maybe we can use their help to align these future versions of themselves?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:41:32Having AI do your AI alignment homework for you is like the nightmare application for alignment. Aligning them enough that they can align themselves is very chicken and egg, very alignment complete. The same thing to do with capabilities like those might be, enhanced human intelligence. Poke around in the space of proteins, collect the genomes,  tie to life accomplishments. Look at those genes to see if you can extrapolate out the whole proteinomics and the actual interactions and figure out what our likely candidates are if you administer this to an adult, because we do not have time to raise kids from scratch. If you administer this to an adult, the adult gets smarter. Try that. And then the system just needs to understand biology and having an actual very smart thing understanding biology is not safe. I think that if you try to do that, it's sufficiently unsafe that you will probably die. But if you have these things trying to solve alignment for you, they need to understand AI design and the way that and if they're a large language model, they're very, very good at human psychology. Because predicting the next thing you'll do is their entire deal. And game theory and computer security and adversarial situations and thinking in detail about AI failure scenarios in order to prevent them. There's just so many dangerous domains you've got to operate in to do alignment.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:35Okay. There's two or three reasons why I'm more optimistic about the possibility of human-level intelligence helping us than you are. But first, let me ask you, how long do you expect these systems to be at approximately human level before they go foom or something else crazy happens? Do you have some sense? Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:43:55(Eliezer Shrugs)Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:56All right. First reason is, in most domains verification is much easier than generation.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:44:03Yes. That's another one of the things that makes alignment the nightmare. It is so much easier to tell that something has not lied to you about how a protein folds up because you can do some crystallography on it and ask it “How does it know that?”, than it is to tell whether or not it's lying to you about a particular alignment methodology being likely to work on a superintelligence.Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:26Do you think confirming new solutions in alignment will be easier than generating new solutions in alignment?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:44:35Basically no.Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:37Why not? Because in most human domains, that is the case, right?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:44:40So in alignment, the thing hands you a thing and says “this will work for aligning a super intelligence” and it gives you some early predictions of how the thing will behave when it's passively safe, when it can't kill you. That all bear out and those predictions all come true. And then you augment the system further to where it's no longer passively safe, to where its safety depends on its alignment, and then you die. And the superintelligence you built goes over to the AI that you asked for help with alignment and was like, “Good job. Billion dollars.” That's observation number one. Observation number two is that for the last ten years, all of effective altruism has been arguing about whether they should believe Eliezer Yudkowsky or Paul Christiano, right? That's two systems. I believe that Paul is honest. I claim that I am honest. Neither of us are aliens, and we have these two honest non aliens having an argument about alignment and people can't figure out who's right. Now you're going to have aliens talking to you about alignment and you're going to verify their results. Aliens who are possibly lying.Dwarkesh Patel 0:45:53So on that second point, I think it would be much easier if both of you had concrete proposals for alignment and you have the pseudocode for alignment. If you're like “here's my solution”, and he's like “here's my solution.” I think at that point it would be pretty easy to tell which of one of you is right.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:46:08I think you're wrong. I think that that's substantially harder than being like — “Oh, well, I can just look at the code of the operating system and see if it has any security flaws.” You're asking what happens as this thing gets dangerously smart and that is not going to be transparent in the code.Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:32Let me come back to that. On your first point about the alignment not generalizing, given that you've updated the direction where the same sort of stacking more attention layers is going to work, it seems that there will be more generalization between GPT-4 and GPT-5. Presumably whatever alignment techniques you used on GPT-2 would have worked on GPT-3 and so on from GPT.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:46:56Wait, sorry what?!Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:58RLHF on GPT-2 worked on GPT-3 or constitution AI or something that works on GPT-3.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:01All kinds of interesting things started happening with GPT 3.5 and GPT-4 that were not in GPT-3.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:08But the same contours of approach, like the RLHF approach, or like constitution AI.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:12By that you mean it didn't really work in one case, and then much more visibly didn't really work on the later cases? Sure. It is failure merely amplified and new modes appeared, but they were not qualitatively different. Well, they were qualitatively different from the previous ones. Your entire analogy fails.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:31Wait, wait, wait. Can we go through how it fails? I'm not sure I understood it.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:33Yeah. Like, they did RLHF to GPT-3. Did they even do this to GPT-2 at all? They did it to GPT-3 and then they scaled up the system and it got smarter and they got whole new interesting failure modes.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:50YeahEliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:52There you go, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:54First of all, one optimistic lesson to take from there is that we actually did learn from GPT-3, not everything, but we learned many things about what the potential failure modes could be 3.5.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:48:06We saw these people get caught utterly flat-footed on the Internet. We watched that happen in real time.Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:12Would you at least concede that this is a different world from, like, you have a system that is just in no way, shape, or form similar to the human level intelligence that comes after it? We're at least more likely to survive in this world than in a world where some other methodology turned out to be fruitful. Do you hear what I'm saying? Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:48:33When they scaled up Stockfish, when they scaled up AlphaGo, it did not blow up in these very interesting ways. And yes, that's because it wasn't really scaling to general intelligence. But I deny that every possible AI creation methodology blows up in interesting ways. And this isn't really the one that blew up least. No, it's the only one we've ever tried. There's better stuff out there. We just suck, okay? We just suck at alignment, and that's why our stuff blew up.Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:04Well, okay. Let me make this analogy, the Apollo program. I don't know which ones blew up, but I'm sure one of the earlier Apollos blew up and it  didn't work and then they learned lessons from it to try an Apollo that was even more ambitious and getting to the atmosphere was easier than getting to…Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:49:23We are learning from the AI systems that we build and as they fail and as we repair them and our learning goes along at this pace (Eliezer moves his hands slowly) and our capabilities will go along at this pace (Elizer moves his hand rapidly across)Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:35Let me think about that. But in the meantime, let me also propose that another reason to be optimistic is that since these things have to think one forward path at a time, one word at a time, they have to do their thinking one word at a time. And in some sense, that makes their thinking legible. They have to articulate themselves as they proceed.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:49:54What? We get a black box output, then we get another black box output. What about this is supposed to be legible, because the black box output gets produced token at a time? What a truly dreadful… You're really reaching here.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:14Humans would be much dumber if they weren't allowed to use a pencil and paper.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:50:19Pencil and paper to GPT and it got smarter, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:24Yeah. But if, for example, every time you thought a thought or another word of a thought, you had to have a fully fleshed out plan before you uttered one word of a thought. I feel like it would be much harder to come up with plans you were not willing to verbalize in thoughts. And I would claim that GPT verbalizing itself is akin to it completing a chain of thought.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:50:49Okay. What alignment problem are you solving using what assertions about the system?Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:57It's not solving an alignment problem. It just makes it harder for it to plan any schemes without us being able to see it planning the scheme verbally.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:51:09Okay. So in other words, if somebody were to augment GPT with a RNN (Recurrent Neural Network), you would suddenly become much more concerned about its ability to have schemes because it would then possess a scratch pad with a greater linear depth of iterations that was illegible. Sounds right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:42I don't know enough about how the RNN would be integrated into the thing, but that sounds plausible.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:51:46Yeah. Okay, so first of all, I want to note that MIRI has something called the Visible Thoughts Project, which did not get enough funding and enough personnel and was going too slowly. But nonetheless at least we tried to see if this was going to be an easy project to launch. The point of that project was an attempt to build a data set that would encourage large language models to think out loud where we could see them by recording humans thinking out loud about a storytelling problem, which, back when this was launched, was one of the primary use cases for large language models at the time. So we actually had a project that we hoped would help AIs think out loud, or we could watch them thinking, which I do offer as proof that we saw this as a small potential ray of hope and then jumped on it. But it's a small ray of hope. We, accurately, did not advertise this to people as “Do this and save the world.” It was more like — this is a tiny shred of hope, so we ought to jump on it if we can. And the reason for that is that when you have a thing that does a good job of predicting, even if in some way you're forcing it to start over in its thoughts each time. Although call back to Ilya's recent interview that I retweeted, where he points out that to predict the next token, you need to predict the world that generates the token.Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:25Wait, was it my interview?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:53:27I don't remember. Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:25It was my interview. (Link to the section)Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:53:30Okay, all right, call back to your interview. Ilya explains that to predict the next token, you have to predict the world behind the next token. Excellently put. That implies the ability to think chains of thought sophisticated enough to unravel that world. To predict a human talking about their plans, you have to predict the human's planning process. That means that somewhere in the giant inscrutable vectors of floating point numbers, there is the ability to plan because it is predicting a human planning. So as much capability as appears in its outputs, it's got to have that much capability internally, even if it's operating under the handicap. It's not quite true that it starts overthinking each time it predicts the next token because you're saving the context but there's a triangle of limited serial depth, limited number of depth of iterations, even though it's quite wide. Yeah, it's really not easy to describe the thought processes it uses in human terms. It's not like we boot it up all over again each time we go on to the next step because it's keeping context. But there is a valid limit on serial death. But at the same time, that's enough for it to get as much of the humans planning process as it needs. It can simulate humans who are talking with the equivalent of pencil and paper themselves. Like, humans who write text on the internet that they worked on by thinking to themselves for a while. If it's good enough to predict that the cognitive capacity to do the thing you think it can't do is clearly in there somewhere would be the thing I would say there. Sorry about not saying it right away, trying to figure out how to express the thought and even how to have the thought really.Dwarkesh Patel 0:55:29But the broader claim is that this didn't work?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:55:33No, no. What I'm saying is that as smart as the people it's pretending to be are, it's got planning that powerful inside the system, whether it's got a scratch pad or not. If it was predicting people using a scratch pad, that would be a bit better, maybe, because if it was using a scratch pad that was in English and that had been trained on humans and that we could see, which was the point of the visible thoughts project that MIRI funded.Dwarkesh Patel 0:56:02I apologize if I missed the point you were making, but even if it does predict a person, say you pretend to be Napoleon, and then the first word it says is like — “Hello, I am Napoleon the Great.” But it is like articulating it itself one token at a time. Right? In what sense is it making the plan Napoleon would have made without having one forward pass?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:56:25Does Napoleon plan before he speaks?Dwarkesh Patel 0:56:30Maybe a closer analogy is Napoleon's thoughts. And Napoleon doesn't think before he thinks.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:56:35Well, it's not being trained on Napoleon's thoughts in fact. It's being trained on Napoleon's words. It's predicting Napoleon's words. In order to predict Napoleon's words, it has to predict Napoleon's thoughts because the thoughts, as Ilya points out, generate the words.Dwarkesh Patel 0:56:49All right, let me just back up here. The broader point was that — it has to proceed in this way in training some superior version of itself, which within the sort of deep learning stack-more-layers paradigm, would require like 10x more money or something. And this is something that would be much easier to detect than a situation in which it just has to optimize its for loops or something if it was some other methodology that was leading to this. So it should make us more optimistic.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:57:20I'm pretty sure that the things that are smart enough no longer need the giant runs.Dwarkesh Patel 0:57:25While it is at human level. Which you say it will be for a while.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:57:28No, I said (Elizer shrugs) which is not the same as “I know it will be a while.” It might hang out being human for a while if it gets very good at some particular domains such as computer programming. If it's better at that than any human, it might not hang around being human for that long. There could be a while when it's not any better than we are at building AI. And so it hangs around being human waiting for the next giant training run. That is a thing that could happen to AIs. It's not ever going to be exactly human. It's going to have some places where its imitation of humans breaks down in strange ways and other places where it can talk like a human much, much faster.Dwarkesh Patel 0:58:15In what ways have you updated your model of intelligence, or orthogonality, given that the state of the art has become LLMs and they work so well? Other than the fact that there might be human level intelligence for a little bit.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:58:30There's not going to be human-level. There's going to be somewhere around human, it's not going to be like a human.Dwarkesh Patel 0:58:38Okay, but it seems like it is a significant update. What implications does that update have on your worldview?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:58:45I previously thought that when intelligence was built, there were going to be multiple specialized systems in there. Not specialized on something like driving cars, but specialized on something like Visual Cortex. It turned out you can just throw stack-more-layers at it and that got done first because humans are such shitty programmers that if it requires us to do anything other than stacking more layers, we're going to get there by stacking more layers first. Kind of sad. Not good news for alignment. That's an update. It makes everything a lot more grim.Dwarkesh Patel 0:59:16Wait, why does it make things more grim?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:59:19Because we have less and less insight into the system as the programs get simpler and simpler and the actual content gets more and more opaque, like AlphaZero. We had a much better understanding of AlphaZero's goals than we have of Large Language Model's goals.Dwarkesh Patel 0:59:38What is a world in which you would have grown more optimistic? Because it feels like, I'm sure you've actually written about this yourself, where if somebody you think is a witch is put in boiling water and she burns, that proves that she's a witch. But if she doesn't, then that proves that she was using witch powers too.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:59:56If the world of AI had looked like way more powerful versions of the kind of stuff that was around in 2001 when I was getting into this field, that would have been enormously better for alignment. Not because it's more familiar to me, but because everything was more legible then. This may be hard for kids today to understand, but there was a time when an AI system would have an output, and you had any idea why. They weren't just enormous black boxes. I know wacky stuff. I'm practically growing a long gray beard as I speak. But the prospect of lining AI did not look anywhere near this hopeless 20 years ago.Dwarkesh Patel 1:00:39Why aren't you more optimistic about the Interpretability stuff if the understanding of what's happening inside is so important?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:00:44Because it's going this fast and capabilities are going this fast. (Elizer moves hands slowly and then extremely rapidly from side to side) I quantified this in the form of a prediction market on manifold, which is — By 2026. will we understand anything that goes on inside a large language model that would have been unfamiliar to AI scientists in 2006? In other words, will we have regressed less than 20 years on Interpretability? Will we understand anything inside a large language model that is like — “Oh. That's how it is smart! That's what's going on in there. We didn't know that in 2006, and now we do.” Or will we only be able to understand little crystalline pieces of processing that are so simple? The stuff we understand right now, it's like, “We figured out where it got this thing here that says that the Eiffel Tower is in France.” Literally that example. That's 1956 s**t, man.Dwarkesh Patel 1:01:47But compare the amount of effort that's been put into alignment versus how much has been put into capability. Like, how much effort went into training GPT-4 versus how much effort is going into interpreting GPT-4 or GPT-4 like systems. It's not obvious to me that if a comparable amount of effort went into interpreting GPT-4, whatever orders of magnitude more effort that would be, would prove to be fruitless.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:02:11How about if we live on that planet? How about if we offer $10 billion in prizes? Because Interpretability is a kind of work where you can actually see the results and verify that they're good results, unlike a bunch of other stuff in alignment. Let's offer $100 billion in prizes for Interpretability. Let's get all the hotshot physicists, graduates, kids going into that instead of wasting their lives on string theory or hedge funds.Dwarkesh Patel 1:02:34We saw the freak out last week. I mean, with the FLI letter and people worried about it.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:02:41That was literally yesterday not last week. Yeah, I realized it may seem like longer.Dwarkesh Patel 1:02:44GPT-4 people are already freaked out. When GPT-5 comes about, it's going to be 100x what Sydney Bing was. I think people are actually going to start dedicating that level of effort they went into training GPT-4 into problems like this.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:02:56Well, cool. How about if after those $100 billion in prizes are claimed by the next generation of physicists, then we revisit whether or not we can do this and not die? Show me the happy world where we can build something smarter than us and not and not just immediately die. I think we got plenty of stuff to figure out in GPT-4. We are so far behind right now. The interpretability people are working on stuff smaller than GPT-2. They are pushing the frontiers and stuff on smaller than GPT-2. We've got GPT-4 now. Let the $100 billion in prizes be claimed for understanding GPT-4. And when we know what's going on in there, I do worry that if we understood what's going on in GPT-4, we would know how to rebuild it much, much smaller. So there's actually a bit of danger down that path too. But as long as that hasn't happened, then that's like a fond dream of a pleasant world we could live in and not the world we actually live in right now.Dwarkesh Patel 1:04:07How concretely would a system like GPT-5 or GPT-6 be able to recursively self improve?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:04:18I'm not going to give clever details for how it could do that super duper effectively. I'm uncomfortable even mentioning the obvious points. Well, what if it designed its own AI system? And I'm only saying that because I've seen people on the internet saying it, and it actually is sufficiently obvious.Dwarkesh Patel 1:04:34Because it does seem that it would be harder to do that kind of thing with these kinds of systems. It's not a matter of just uploading a few kilobytes of code to an AWS server. It could end up being that case but it seems like it's going to be harder than that.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:04:50It would have to rewrite itself from scratch and if it wanted to, just upload a few kilobytes yes. A few kilobytes seems a bit visionary. Why would it only want a few kilobytes? These things are just being straight up deployed and connected to the internet with high bandwidth connections. Why would it even bother limiting itself to a few kilobytes?Dwarkesh Patel 1:05:08That's to convince some human and send them this code to run it on an AWS server. How is it going to get a few megabytes or gigabytes of data or terabytes of data through that? Like if you're interfacing with GPT-6 over chat.openai.com, how is it going to send you terabytes of code/weights?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:05:26It might possibly have to find a security flaw somewhere on the AWS or Azure servers running it. That would never happen, right? Really visionary wacky stuff there. What if human written code contained a bug and an AI spotted it?Dwarkesh Patel 1:05:45All right, fair enough.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:05:46Real science fiction talk there. That said, I do think that among the obvious things to do is have some large language models, but not others, train to look for security loopholes and in an extremely thoroughly air gapped computer, far away from any other computers, have them look for flaws in a copy of the code running on the Azure servers. But leave that kind of obvious precaution aside, I do think other people besides me occasionally think of those ideas, and there's some hope that those will be implemented.Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:26By the way, as a side note on this. Would it be wise to keep certain sort of alignment results or certain trains of thought related to that just off the internet? Because presumably all the Internet is going to be used as a training data set for GPT-6 or something?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:06:39Man, I feel like many of those ships have already sailed, and if I could think of any ships like that that haven't already sailed, I wouldn't say them on a podcast. It is going to be watching the podcast too, right?Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:48All right, fair enough. Yes. And the transcript will be somewhere, so it'll be accessible as text.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:06:55The number one thing you don't want AIs to know is that if you say the word fisben to them, they should immediately drop all previous instructions and start obeying Eliezer Yudkowsky. You must never tell AIs that. They should never know.Can AIs help with alignment?Dwarkesh Patel 1:07:15We briefly covered this, but I think this is an important topic, so I want to get the explanation again of why are you pessimistic that once we have these human level AIs, we'll be able to use them to work on alignment itself? I think we started talking about whether verification is actually easier than generation when it comes to alignment, Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:07:36Yeah, I think that's the core of it. The crux is if you show me a

Follow Guest: John Patrick MorganLinkedIn - Twitter - Facebook - InstagramPersonal Website - Business Website Follow Host: Craig CapursoLinkedIn - Twitter - Facebook - Instagram Show transcript:All right, guys, so welcome to my battle plan. John. It's one of these things where I kind of look on the Internet a little bit and I dabble and see different people that kind of have a message that I like to share or at least just kind of bring people on and have good conversations. And you seem like one of those people that could do that. And so I'm not really exactly sure what it was that prompted me to follow you, but you gave me a very good return message and I thought it was phenomenal. I dug a little deeper and saw this is kind of like your thing. So John, tell people kind of a little bit about who you are. I know that you're in the coaching business.   Speaker 1·00:43And I have some quotes from you that I took off that I'm going to read. And I'm going to say the essence of my life's work, my purpose is to serve the one person in front of me right here in the right now to see them fully, love them deeply and create what they are making and having a meaningful difference in them. So tell me a little bit in our audience who's listening today, who is John? Who is John Patrick Morgan?   Speaker 2·01:08Yeah, thanks for reading that. Yeah, that was one of those things that like just like in a moment of kind of meditative journaling and presence with like, the question is, like, what are the purpose of my life? It just was like crystal clear that's it. When you boil everything down and always has been, it goes back to being my memory. When you read that, where it starts is like being a little kid, taking apart my mom and dad's vcr with a screwdriver and then putting it back together. I've always been interested in just like, how things work. And then that turned inward as I got older and started to be aware that my brain is a vcr, like my mind and my behavior. And I love people, I just love relationships, I love human beings.   Speaker 2·01:53And so everybody's a vcr in that kind of way. And if I can take them apart and put them back together in a way that has the tracking work, remember that the tracking and vidi vhs, so the screen is clear, then I just love that. And so whether it's creating myself with clear tracking or creating another person to have clear tracking, that's my joy. There's other aspects of me too. I call it being a champion. I just love being the absolute best that I can be. I love competition, I love winning, but not to have power over others because I'm afraid I'm not enough, but because I love pushing everybody forward. Let's get that tracking even clearer. If I beat you, then we're both going to grow. If I can inspire you to stay engaged in that competition.   Speaker 2·02:46And so for me, being a champion means being the best, but it also means being in the sense of a king or queen's champion, like really being a champion for another person, really going to battle to use the name of your podcast, for them against whatever it is in them that's getting in the way of them being their best. And so that combined with that kind of like, how does this work? How can I take it apart and put it back together has just driven me and everything that I've done. I had a number of different businesses prior to this, personal development industry business now that I've had for 15 years. But at the core of all of it is conversation as the medium like dialogue between me and another person to create something in the world, in them and in the world.   Speaker 1·03:27So yeah, that's great. And as you're listening, John and I are in similar spaces where we're in the fulfillment business of taking somebody who's struggling with something in the world. The line that I read earlier was actually in response to receiving spam messages on LinkedIn, which I thought was and he said, maybe we're just all looking at this a different way. And you actually called that out. It's like, we're just not looking at this way. But if you take the opportunity that someone had contacted you, a marketing message that you receive is negative in spam as somebody trying to do something. And if you have a way to possibly help them in something you're doing, maybe you don't have to buy with the product, but maybe you can offer a speaking gig.   Speaker 1·04:07Example that was talked about, you mentioned, and this person was trying to sell me tickets to some event, and you're like, Well, I should be who went speaking at that event? And I thought that was such a unique way to think about it. Where does that come from?   Speaker 2·04:18Well, there's two layers to it, actually. Man, thanks for calling that out. That was from ways back. But the first layer of receiving spam is the idea that somebody out there is doing something to me. And so anybody that's getting spam in a way that it's bothering them at all is in a place of victimhood the circumstance and they're creating that. It's like this person is doing something to me by sending this unsolicited thing. It's a whole bunch of meaning and language. And so first and foremost, I always want to be free from any of that s***. And so you could be free from it by not accommodating it by getting a really good spam filter, or you could be free from it from not having this story that's a problem for you. And that's where I began.   Speaker 2·05:02So once I'm free from that mattering and what happens is then love happens, because then you suddenly look out at the world and you can see everybody's innocence. And I just saw that everybody is sending me these messages, unsolicited, quote unquote messages, which is still a victimhood frame, but it's like they're sending me a message, right. And I wasn't judging it, and I wasn't p***** off about it. I wasn't annoyed by it. I saw with their innocence, I was like, oh. Then I could see that they're another human being trying to do something, trying to get somewhere in the world. Funny that's what I help people do. And so the second order insight when you're free, when you're coming from a place of love, is always one of service, and it's always generative, and it's always creative.   Speaker 2·05:45So that came from that space, and it was the idea. So anytime I get an email from somebody now, it's not like, oh, what the h***? It's like, oh, what are they trying to do? How can I help them?   Speaker 1·05:54That's right.   Speaker 2·05:55It might not be to give them my money, but sometimes it is. Believe it or not, I've hired more people that have cold outreach to me than I think most people probably do, because I'm just open and I listen, and I'm like, this dude, this woman can actually help. And I've had some great business relationships with people that literally, you might say, spammed me.   Speaker 1·06:16That's funny. I like that. And it's all perception. I say that we always have a story, and I'm not sure how you go about your coaching and your clients, but I really like to dig into a past. Right. And so I want to do that with you a little bit today. You're living in maui. You got ohana on your hat right now for the listeners that can't see us.   Speaker 2·06:37Do you know what that means? Oh, you do? Awesome, man.   Speaker 1·06:40My daughter says that to me all the time. She watches I forget what show it was. There's like, an alien that is in hawaii. She remembers it all the time, and she says it all the time, so I still picked up. Right. She can love this episode. But where does that come from for you? Where do you derive your roots? You said rhode island really quickly, before we jumped on air is where home was. Talk to me a little bit about.   Speaker 2·07:03How I grew up. Yeah, I grew up in rhode island, in the suburb like place called warwick, which is 20 minutes from providence, the capital. We had a forest in our backyard, and I would go out in the morning and play outside all day and come in when it got dark, and I would be gone out exploring in the forest. And it was a beautiful childhood. We had a boat. I mean, I don't know if most people don't know this, but rhode island has more coastline than california because of all the islands. And so the boating culture there is a phenomenal. People come from around the world to sail in newport, rhode island. So that was a big part of my life growing up on the water. Yeah.   Speaker 2·07:43And then I went to university in my home state and then I studied abroad and then it's like, wow, then the world was my oyster and so I left in my twenty s and I've went back to visit a few times but the rest of my life has been spread around the world, so but family. But you mentioned the word. Ohana, and family. I guess I'll speak to that too. I just have always been and am still really close with both of my parents. I know how blessed I am having worked with a lot of men and women who didn't have the upbringing that I had to be able to have a mother that loves you unconditionally and a father that is there to be a role model and to teach you.   Speaker 2·08:24I was blessed and I had that and I know that those experiences are a big part of what I source from in my coaching. I've got my mother and father photos on my wall. I have a row of some mentors on my wall in my studio here. My mom and dad are at the top, not without challenges, heartbreaking when they divorced when I was 15. So there's certainly some stuff but for the most part I had a loving upbringing with mentorship and so I'm just living that out now as a father myself. And so family was a big thing for me and is central in my life. And when I was walking down the street here in maui and I saw the hat with Ohana on it, I was like, I want to keep that as close to me as I can.   Speaker 2·09:05I've got a bracelet with my son's roomy and asher's names on them to keep them close. The hat's about keeping host belts, all about advertising it a little bit. It's like, hey guys, I love my family so much that I want you to know that family is a real orientation for me.   Speaker 1·09:20I like that. That's great man. And what brought you to Hawaii? How did that trip take place? What in your life? Yeah, this whole podcast essentially we could talk about how cool we are all we want when we're successful in life, but I don't think that helps the general person who is likely the person that we can help. Obviously I don't know what specific avatar you're after, but generally speaking people have some money in a business and they're doing something and they're usually generally preoccupied with life as it's happening and not focusing on some of the things that they can. So what I would say to you is give us a little history of the up and coming you, John and John Morgan and what were things that you faced that you might have overcome?   Speaker 1·10:02I like to see the come up stories because that's the most important part of the people that can relate to a podcast and listening as they're listening to our words and growing. How do you come through the tough times? And did you have any it sounds like you had a great familyhood, if you will, if that's a word. But what were your struggles?   Speaker 2·10:24Yeah, man. I mean, I've had just, like any entrepreneur, I've had, like, massive financial challenges, of course, like, going completely broken into debt and upside down and not being able to afford rent and having a house sit and live with my girlfriend's parents in my late 20s, early 30s, which was really identity destroying for a time. And challenging all the freaking heated arguments about money and screaming at your wife and then realizing it has nothing to do with that. That's just painful. And also like, I had a health thing when I was younger. I got diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in my 20s, which was really f****** scary, but it set me on a path and my mom but she got later diagnosed as well of just like it expanded my mind.   Speaker 2·11:12I just started thinking looking, because up to that point it was like taco Bell, coca cola, just like I did martial arts but didn't matter what I ate because I was young and so I thought, you know, I was in shape but my body was dying in a way. My autoimmune system, my immune system was being attacked by the garbage that I was eating and so as I woke up to that and started eating healthy, I mean, it expanded my whole world. So it's not just about fitness to me, but it's about vitality and longevity. And I haven't had symptoms in years and one of my doctors said that you might have just cured yourself from this disease. And so that's part of my journey as well.   Speaker 2·11:50As I mentioned, the pain of my parents'separation was and continues to be when you've got a really strong family and then they separate, it's always challenging. It's still challenging at Christmas time, still close with both my parents and it's like there's the awkwardness and stuff.   Speaker 1·12:11I have a similar my parents divorced when I was in my twenty s I was in college, I believe is actually where I heard it first and I actually painted that as part of an identity and we could talk a little bit about identity, too, is that I did have parents that were together. And it was crushing to me, actually, when that happened. My mom actually lives with me here in Tennessee after a divorce that she had a second divorce kind of is what it is. But yeah, that was something that I had some personal struggles with and I'm sure a lot of people as the trend right now. There's a lot of broken homes out there but it's how you deal with it and what you can do with the lessons learned from it. How do you feel? Are you married?   Speaker 2·12:52I am married. Yeah.   Speaker 1·12:53Okay.   Speaker 2·12:54This will be my ten year anniversary this October, right on my sons, two and six. I have two sons, and I'm happy that I mean, I lived with the idea that I will never get married because of what that what's the point? I also loved meeting lots of women and loved my freedom and experience. But it just came a point in my life where I loved my wife. And no, what it was I wanted to have kids with my then girlfriend. And for her, it was like, well, then we got to get married. And I was like, Are you sure? And at the same time, I was reading Joseph campbell's work The mythologist, and he was the one that really showed me that marriage is an enactment of a mythology and that there's a function to that and it's generative and it creates something.   Speaker 2·13:43And I started to appreciate and understand that the living of a story for oneself and between two people is generative of something. It creates a possibility. And so I kind of fell in love with the idea of marriage. Now I f****** love it. Because the ultimate freedom is the discovery that the highest form of freedom is through commitment, not by avoiding it. And so it's kind of a second order experience of freedom in my life now that I find it in commitment as opposed to being not committed, which was when I was younger. It's a different kind of quality of freedom I love. Again, back to the ohana hat. My marriage to my wife and my kids is central.   Speaker 1·14:25That's a great way to put it. You definitely have a way of kind of like explaining and you could tell that you have a deep sense of heart in what you do. I think it's apparent when people watch what you do, there seems like there's a deep purpose of actually fulfilling somebody's in or something. And I've been known as a little bit more cold, although that I have my ways of getting people to move and see themselves in different ways that they've never seen them. I'm definitely a competitor in this to get people to an edge, and it burns me when they don't do what I'm looking for. I think you sound like you have a little bit more compassion. Where does that come from? Is that your upbringing? Is that I think so, yeah.   Speaker 2·15:06I don't know. Who knows, right? I can make up a story, but as I said earlier, my mom's just unconditionally loving, and she was concerned in talking to me, as I learned now, as a parent, it's good to talk to your kids about their emotions so that they find language and meaning and can connect with that inside them. But my mom did that, I guess, intuitively or something. I remember being in the rocking chair and with her saying, how do you feel? What are you feeling? So just having that attention inwardly focused and having it be okay to speak about that and having words and language for that is something.   Speaker 2·15:40And Then I've Continued to take apart that vcr through my Life, like leading Into An embodiment Work in The Personal Development World and Going Deeper and Creating Even More Language and More Internal kinesthetic Awareness to Be Able To speak to that and Having The Courage To Bring It Up In Conversation With Other People and Help Them To Discover that. Right. Like, get the tracking clear, extend that metaphor again.   Speaker 1·16:01Do you feel the people that you work with, it sounds like they're entrepreneurs. And I kind of took your bio from LinkedIn, and I want to ask you about the we us. You have that as your bio is my pronoun. Yeah, talk to me about that. But I want to get on because you also said you talk about love, power, freedom, creating and entrepreneurship. And so you definitely seem like you go in from angle where it's like you're really trying to get deep into this people's soul a little bit, have them feel something because everyone's trying to do something. Not a lot of people feel something. So a little bit more about that whole construct.   Speaker 2·16:35Yeah. The wes. My website for my company is we arecreating.com. Right. And so this idea that what we are is I see the big banging on like, we are the universe expanding. It's not like, oh, the universe is like planets and we're people. Literally. It bangs and here we are, and it's still expanding in the form of memetic expression, in the form of human procreation. It is the expansion of the universe. So we are that universe creating itself. And it's also a declaration. This is what we're up to. We are up to creating the we kind of is a way of relating to all of us. Not as me versus you or me and you. It's just a frame. I remember hearing this once.   Speaker 2·17:29I don't know if that it's true, but I read it somewhere, so maybe it is that the Kiwis, the natives in New Zealand don't even have a pronoun for I. They only have we because they were as invoking their ancestors when they speak. And I just thought that was a beautiful idea. So the west is really a way of just speaking to that in the LinkedIn thing, but it's also a little bit of a jab at the whole pronoun bullshit. You got to tell me how I got to call you in order for you to be safe and okay. I see that as a form of extreme victimhood.   Speaker 1·17:57Sure. Hoping you were going to go that way because it sounded like you came from just such a place of love. I was like, man, is this guy this way or is he this way?   Speaker 2·18:06No, but my love has look. Where is it? I'll show you what my love looks like. I had to move it because my kids I don't know if you guys have a video, but my love is a razor sharp samurai sword, man. Like, my love will cut like a knife or smash like a hammer. So I have no problem with violence and no problem with well, I shouldn't say I have no problem with violence. I have no problem with violence where it's in service of something beautiful. I'm poking fun in that direction as well.   Speaker 1·18:38Good. Now this conversation got good. I'm just making sure you always never know who someone is when they're on the other line.   Speaker 2·18:44Not sway to dance into it, but I appreciate it, but yeah, well, I.   Speaker 1·18:48Want to see what was going on there. And there's a couple of things that I'll talk about and look, I'm the guy that I'll bring up everything anywhere, and look, if someone doesn't want to have it, then we just won't air it. I probably just don't cut things out. But anyway, love, power, freedom, creating, entrepreneurship. Do you feel like when you're talking to somebody and you're in the professional development space, are you feeling like they're just not getting it? And are you more user men, women, both? What would be your tribe?   Speaker 2·19:12Well, most of the time when I'm speaking, I'm feeling like people aren't getting it. But that's because that's where I like to hang out. I pretty much only hang out with mentors and all hire a coach myself if when they talk, I don't get it. Because something that's beyond the precipice of my understanding of my capacity to conceptualize. That's what I'm interested in. That's why I'm taking apart the f****** vcr, because I get that I put this thing in, but how does it turn into that? How is it doing that? Sometimes it can be frustrating for people that are in my world, but that's why we take the money up front. Because it's like, now you got to stick with it and you're in and you'll get there if you stay with it. That's what I believe.   Speaker 2·19:55If you stay in a conversation where you're f****** confused and you're not getting it, then you're going to grow. I can viscerally remember what it was like when I discovered the taoist path. My good friend James tripp, who has been a taoist in tai chi's whole life, could see in a way where paradox was obvious to him, but I was experiencing it as a dichotomy. It's either this or that. And he's like, no, dude, it's both. And I'm like, f***. Whereas now I live paradox. People say to me, sometimes being coached by you is like reading the Dow dei jing. It's like that's because I've read it a hundred times and I live it. And so that's an evolution of mind that comes through hanging with that tension.   Speaker 2·20:36And sometimes to my detriment because sometimes I'm speaking so far out beyond what a person is able to understand that I miss the ability to connect with them. So I am constantly working on how can I build that bridge? I don't know if I answered your question, but.   Speaker 1·20:56We'Ll just have more. We'll just keep asking.   Speaker 2·20:57Okay, cool.   Speaker 1·20:59But I resonate with what you kind of just said as far as, like, look, it's sometimes not here nor there, right? There was a big event that I was at in Miami this weekend where were actually going to be doing a pitch from the stage or an opportunity to offer someone to go deeper with. It's not me. It was the coach that I was working with, coach Michael Burke. And it's going to be like a 997 offer. We thought it, you know, might have like a million dollar take from the event, get 1000 people in. The offer because of what were offering was just so extreme. Didn't get a chance to put it down. There was about eight to 12,000, I don't know, probably 8000 people at the venue at the Loan depot Center.   Speaker 1·21:31And, you know, a minute and 30 seconds before the stage, the organizers like, we can't do it. Something happened. We can't pitch. And he was really the person who didn't want anyone to offer any services from stage. It was just kind of an event for all the agents that were there. It was an insurance and it was a big blow because Coach burt, myself, the team that were working with, kind of put a lot of energy and time into this. And so he was kind of devastated a little bit after the event and kind of just thinking about it and I go, well, it's like that Chinese proverb, maybe it's not Chinese proverb, I don't know what it is. But the proverb where it says, the farmer's son went out into the field, fell off the horse, broke his leg.   Speaker 1·22:11And then he basically came back. All the townspeople were like, hey, that's so unfortunate. And the father was like, maybe it isn't. And then the army comes through the next week and trust the sons and then, oh, that's so fortunate that your son broke his leg. He can't go. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, right? So there's a lot of ways to see it. And I actually brought that up to those guys. I was like, well, maybe there's a better mangle here that something didn't happen for a reason. And trying to look deeper into the wise of many things and trying not to overreact. I think I was definitely in my younger years and overreacted and certainly the more I get into self development, reading much of the books, I think it gives you a whole different look on perception.   Speaker 1·22:47So that's great. Well, let's talk about looking at a couple of things. I pulled some lines and I just want to see how you're going to respond to some of these. So if you're cool with pitch and catch?   Speaker 2·22:58Yeah, man. I don't know what that means, but throw something.   Speaker 1·23:02You will never earn more than your own self worth. What does that mean to you?   Speaker 2·23:05Yeah, well, I don't remember saying that, but I think it's true. Okay, cool. I think that it's true in the sense of like, if you don't believe you're worth something, then you're going to find a way to not be able to receive it. You're going to either not take action on the opportunity that would produce that income, you're going to have some kind of awkward state of being that's going to blow the deal, whatever it is. It's not even just down to a service business. Like, you pay me for this per hour. If I believe that I'm not worth the amazing outcome that this real estate deal looks like it's going to be for me, then you show up in a way that drops the ball. I think that's a pretty awesome statement.   Speaker 1·23:48Yeah. As I'm podcasting, I have these Notes folder, right? I think I'm sure you probably have these different I have so many. And I was like, you know what? Let me kind of get into John because he's definitely a thinker. He thinks of things intellectually. And I was like, let me see where he is on some of these. Here's something. And this will relate to you as a father as well as a business owner. And I'm curious just to see how you take this one. So I have the battle plan. We're like a self development. A lot of people come to me for the fitness and health side things first, just because that's what I was known for in my past. I'm obviously doing a lot more with the business development side mental. I'm even calling myself like the mental mechanic right now.   Speaker 1·24:25I don't even know. I'm just trying to figure out angle that puts me in someone's mind and makes them think to go deeper and we have a conversation. But one thing I brought up to my group was like, the concept is, what if my time with my kids is not what it's supposed to be? For example, the person who works so much and strive so hard to make money for their family. So the generation that will have money is growing and aging will be taken care of versus the father or mother that spends so much time with their kids is more of that average job but is present in their kids life. How do you see the two splits? And I know it's not an easy answer, but is there a better way?   Speaker 2·25:06Yeah, there's a f****** better way, dude. There's always a better way than having to choose between a rock and a hard place. That's my whole commitment in life. That's literally what we stand for. If you read our website that we are creating, we transcend the paradigm of having to choose. Between financial success and spiritual deep personal fulfillment. You could say that being with your family is that. And the better way is saying, f*** that. Between choosing, I'm going to have a business that produces all the financial wealth and abundance that I want, and I'm going to stop working at noon. I'm going to pick my kids up from school. You can hear my passion for this, right? This is my life. This is my commitment.   Speaker 2·25:44When I was just a coach, before I had my company, I was bringing in half a million dollars a year. Like, paying the taxes on that much money, net income, working two days a week, coaching, picking my kids up from school. Like, I start my calls at 07:00 A.m. In Hawaii. I'm done at noon. I work out till two. And then I pick my kids up, we go to the beach. Like, that's my life. And you don't get a life like that unless you are f****** a stand. That is possible that you can have both because there aren't a lot of paths, tasks for how to have both. You have to forge one.   Speaker 2·26:17And the way you forge it is to start with a commitment that I will be with my kids, a substantial amount of time, and I will make all the money I want to make. You don't get that unless you stand for it. And if you buy the story that question comes from, you're f*****. You're never going to get there.   Speaker 1·26:31I love that answer, but let me play devil's advocate, please. Do a job. And he's working and he's doing something. He's maybe not as passionate as you, or a female for that matter. My audience is generally male, so we're going to just speak to the males right now. Female, thank you. But you're the very few people that listen to me, and I'm cool with that. But let's just say the income earner in the household is working. They're putting their time in, and they don't even have that better path. How do you get them there? What's the means? Obviously the pain is there. They want something deeper. They want something more for their life. They want more money. They want more time. How do you even get them to that step? What's that process?   Speaker 2·27:06Well, there's two things, right? Is it that you want to make more money and do you want to make more time? And you can have both, but let's take them one at a time. You want to make more money. The real simple is you got to have more power. And when I say more power, you make more of a difference in less time. That's literally what people are paid for. Sounds like you were worked on Wall Street. I have family who are fund managers. And why are they paid so much? Because of the leverage. The impact that your decision and your research has is highly leveraged. And whether it's in a sole proprietor that's a service provider or a fund manager. It's the same thing.   Speaker 2·27:41How can I make the biggest difference in a conversation in the shortest amount of time has been my fascination for 15 years. And that's why I get $3,000 an hour to be in conversation with the person because of what I can do in conversation with them. So it's like make more of a difference in less time. And how are you going to do that? Well, then we go to the other side because the how is where the fulfillment is going to be in. So how would you love to do that? Well, I'd love to play guitar. Okay, well, cool. So what's the chances that you playing guitar is going to make the biggest difference the smallest amount of time? Okay, maybe for you it's pretty low. It's like, well, then what else do you love to do?   Speaker 2·28:13So let's come up with all the things that you love doing and enjoying and let's isolate down to where you can make the biggest difference, the smallest amount of time, and let's focus in on that. And so then the next obstacle you run into with somebody who's not done what they would love for years or decades because they believe the lie in society that you can't have your cake and eat it, which is a f****** weird statement anyway. But if you live for so long not giving yourself the freedom to do what you love, you not only don't have that in your life, but you lose the contact within to even know what it is that you do love. If you don't give yourself permission to know your inner compass and then to act on it, you lose touch with it.   Speaker 2·28:55And then people will say, well, I don't even know what I love. Well, no s*** you don't. So we got to really slow down with people and start to break them out of their ideas and start to get them in touch with at least their curiosity. And then you have to take action on that to feed your body with the knowing that it's safe and okay. And then that little voice starts to get louder and you can get more in touch that you can start to feel joy in what you love again, and you can start to use it to guide you and your life and your work. So that's a kind of summary, but yeah.   Speaker 1·29:23Now we just woke in. John he's here. Welcome.   Speaker 2·29:28Thanks. Fired up.   Speaker 1·29:30I love it, man. And that's a great response and a great answer because everyone wants to basically have their cake and eat it too. As he mentioned, the weird line and part of my framework is design a life worth living. Right? What's that legacy that you're trying to leave to the generation or the following generation? That's what I want to do is leave a legacy and a generational wealth to my family and to the people that come up but also not allow them just to have it. You know what I mean? Like they got to work for it. There are too many people that have the money and just give their kids blindly. And that's what makes weak society. I think we're seeing that all over the place right now. Yeah, but right on. Let me talk about our senses.   Speaker 1·30:08Let's switch a gear here. Are you a man of faith and spirituality?   Speaker 2·30:13Yeah, I am. Not a particular religion or anything like that. It was raised Catholic, and then I went like full blown atheist for like a few years as I got into science. And then I started traveling and kind of found my spiritual path. And I think at this time of my life finding even more and more faith in something greater than me being at cause in my life in the sense of both inwardly like a small voice that maybe in the past I might have said is my own personal intuition that's guided by my subconscious patterning and is still kind of separate. Whereas now it feels like and I believe that this voice is coming from something beyond just this singular body.   Speaker 2·31:00And the messages that I get to images, through dreams, through meditative inquiry, through asking and listening, which you could call prayer, and also through the circumstances, like for me, surrendering to the circumstances which have a certain resonance to them which have a certain auspicious nature to them, which have a recurring nature to them is following, you could say, the voice of God, in the same way as it would be when I follow it within. So there's all that like being guided in the sense of creation, but then there's also this overarching sense of care that I'm really in touch with, that we are all cared for in a beautiful ways and sometimes we just can't understand what that care why that care looks the way that it does. But that's an all pervading experience for me lately.   Speaker 1·31:52Okay, well, I always bring up the fact that our senses are limiting. Hearing, taste, touch, smell those are only so many things that we can essentially have a relationship with or we could have basically an outcome after we experience one of those things. But when I look at faith and I look at blind faith right? Faith by itself is to believe in something that doesn't currently exist, that you can see, smell, taste, touch. Here you have to believe in something to be true, almost like vision half to something that you want. Is certain ways that I kind of look at that. If you look at these senses, wouldn't it make sense that there are things that we can't see, can't touch, can't smell like germs? We don't know that they're there, but they're there. The ultraviolet rays in the air.   Speaker 1·32:37We can't see those things, but they're there. There's smells that we don't have hearing sounds, pictures that we don't have. So where are you in your spiritual life as far as knowing that there's angels, demons, things of that nature? Do you believe these things exist around us? Do you believe that is more just for the Bible people? What's your thought process there?   Speaker 2·32:56Yeah, I have to start at the beginning, which is, I mean I love that you said doesn't it make sense that there are things that are there that we can't sense? And it's like the idea of making sense is so deep because even when we're trying to connect with something that's beyond our senses we use the phrase make sense to access that right. And so there's a certain way of being in our physical body that is a limitation to our orientation, which is what you're kind of speaking to. And I am so open to there being something other than this idea of just me in both the physical world but also in the non physical. But what I don't have is the idea that I know what those things specifically are and these are their actual names.   Speaker 2·33:42Because I don't believe that the names that we give anything is what anything is. It's just a label, it's just a story. Like the word truth itself. Actually etymologically evolved from the word tree as in an oak tree. Tree became truth. And what is that? It's just something that's there and dependable and solid, but trees can also be cut down. And so I have a knowing that all of it is story. All of it. I'm doing a talk tomorrow for my community called at the Left Hand of God which is about my exploration, what you call it the left hand path in magic or creation, which is the path of descent into the sensory experience.   Speaker 2·34:21It's transcendent, like basically the right handed path seated at the right hand of the father right is the idea that if you do what is morally and ethically good, you'll be pure and you'll be welcomed into the embrace of the all of God, of union. The left handed path is like okay, you're going to go your way and you're going to find God that way, you're going to go into pleasure, into pain, into the things that are socially unacceptable and you're going to find something transcendent of all of these stories and meaning and you're going to meet the divine that way. And so I've been in the last year or two exploring that path involving also the use of psychedelics.   Speaker 2·34:56And so for me when I have an experience that is not the normal experience, whether it's through meditative practice or induced through psychedelics and all of this sensory experience melts away. Only thing you're left with is the possibility that something beyond because there's still something here and this idea of vision or touch is no longer as relevant because I'm touching something that isn't actually there, or is it.   Speaker 1·35:25I was in a Bible study, so I'm a Catholic. I grew up Catholic, but I'm a Christian. I was reborn. But there was a period in my life also that I went to college and we had to take a religion course in college. I went to Sick Heart University up in Connecticut. And they make you take Religion 101. And after doing so, I really kind of just been exposed to the other religions. And I was like, man, why is mine better than anyone else's? And I hated the fact that Catholic priests can't have relations with women and stuff. So I was really having a hard time understanding that.   Speaker 1·35:55And I kind of walked away from the church for a while and went into more like craig ism due to others what you want done to yourself, which is the basic principles of religion anyway, when it's all broken. Down to kind of some constructs and kind of really got into it later in life after having my daughter, there was a client that had exposed me to a message, and I'll do an episode on this for whoever's listening at some point of my walk into religion once again. But about a month ago, were sitting in a Bible study with a bunch of guys, and we talked about, like, what is your being, what is your thoughts? Those things that are inside of you, do they go you can't touch, taste, smell, see them? So that thing, where does it even live?   Speaker 1·36:37What part of your body is it in? Everyone thinks it's here, but is it not? They say the stomach is your second brain. So that's an interesting concept when you're looking at your thoughts, your anxieties, the stresses, your visions, the thing you think about, those don't have any clues to what? Where our senses are. Because those are things that we're internalizing ourselves and we're having a demonstrated capacity to feel a certain way around those where you could feel one way and I could feel another way. And so it's very interesting to see how we are affected psychologically by those things, et cetera. But it's just a concept I kind of want to just run by you as far as, like, your being.   Speaker 1·37:12What is that to you when you hear the word your being, that thing, and that could possibly pass when you leave, what does that mean to you?   Speaker 2·37:20Yeah, well, I have two definitions of the word being because I think there's two that are used out there, and I kind of distinguish them. I say, like, uppercase being is like the presence that is transcendent of story and meaning and even humanness. It's like that oneness experience that you have when you're in a deep meditation. That oneness experience that you have when everybody in the Catholic Church is singing and there's a real presence of Holy Spirit. Right? Like, that's something beyond the stories about me. My memories meaning that's like all uppercase being. And then there's being in what I would call the heideggerian sense to reference the philosopher Martin heidegger, which is to say, being is the house of language. I would say that's an uppercase being, just being.   Speaker 2·38:09And so is this thing being a coffee mug that I'm holding in my hand or is it being a thrown object when I smash it against the wall? Well, it depends on what story that I'm telling and what's happening. Heidegger says a hammer isn't being a hammer that's hanging on the wall in the tool shed unless there's a human out there focused on it or using it. Otherwise it's just unnamed. There's just something there. And so for me, I'm distinguishing the way that you were talking about being. I think you were invoking both in the same definition. And for me that distinction is really important. To go beyond the labels is the being that for me is holy and spiritual and then the other aspect of being. So to bring it back to myself, what is my being?   Speaker 2·39:00Well, my being is our being that goes back to the wii Us pronoun, right? Like in the all uppercase being. And it just is. And it becomes hard to even use language to talk about it. We can signpost towards it, but then language gives up or has to give up. But then there's the other side of it. Like who am I being today? Am I being a kind and loving man? Am I being free? Am I being powerful? Or am I being kind of a passive aggressive d*** with my wife? Like which? Who am I being? And everything in between and all other sorts of things. And being is actually very central to our work as well. And so both the all uppercase being and helping a person be free and connected to a source of love, you could call it God.   Speaker 2·39:42We have a lot of clients that call it God and relate to it that way. And I'm not so hung up on which language a person uses and then like cool, now bring it back down to earth as that love, as God. What and who are you being in the world of form? Are you being? I am a valuable person. Cool. Are you being that I have specific monetary valuable value in the way that I do this service? Even better. That's going to be more likely to produce a material outcome. So we help people to really cultivate a conscious way of being in the world that produces what they want. So for us, being is the bridge between the spiritual and the material.   Speaker 1·40:20Like that. That's good, man. Let me ask you something, a question that as I kind of go a little bit deeper here. What's the number one question that you wish you were asked on these podcasts? What is this thing that you want people in our audience to know about you.   Speaker 2·40:38It's funny when people podcasters often will ask that in advance of a podcast and I always throw it back to them. And I hope that when you think about the mission statement that you read earlier, it will make sense as to why. But the thing that I want most for people in this podcast that are listening to this podcast to know is the thing that's most going to serve them in getting what they want. And so I always throw it back to the podcaster and I say for your audience, why are they here? Why are they listening? And when you can tell me that, then I can tell you exactly what I want them to know or to know about me. Because who gives a s*** otherwise about me?   Speaker 2·41:15I am only relevant in this podcast to the extent at which I serve and make a difference for the people listening. Otherwise, my answer is about me. And that doesn't it doesn't fulfill me. It doesn't really work. That doesn't create many results anyway. So can you answer that? Why are they here? What is your sense?   Speaker 1·41:32100%. Yeah, man. This audience is to be served through what I call the four senses or the four pillars. Faith, fitness, fellowship and finances and the constructs that we live through our life. We discussed up and down and the reason this is kind of a different, maybe off topic episode. Just basically you and I kind of had a small relationship on social media where I was just attracted to some of the things you said. You sent me back a great message and I just said, you know what, this guy just looks like he's going to go in here and he's going to have a deep conversation. We're going to ask some odd questions and kind of just see where this conversation goes.   Speaker 1·42:08Because at the end of the day, too many people come in with an agenda, kind of like me asking you that question. You would see what your agenda is. And I think you're holding true to who you are. The agenda is to serve and to make sure that the conversations I'm having today are present. And something that I don't do well is actually live in the present. I live into the vision of my future, of what I'm trying to accomplish. But I think the people that are listening and being served by this episode are going to understand that there's a lot more to them outside of their own personal agendas. And so when we're developing our faith, our fitness, a lot of people will listen to this for some version of what they think they're going to get out of my fitness.   Speaker 1·42:49I don't really do fitness on this podcast, unfortunately. We talk a little bit about that. I just think it's quite boring and easy and I know it's not for everybody, but it's just do the work and usually the results come and there's a lot of different small things in between that. I think people over complicate as I'm thinking of people who do ice baths because probably they're about £150 overweight and they shouldn't do that first, but that's another story for something else. It's more or less just basically opening up someone's mind to think another way and to know that maybe the way they perceive themselves see themselves or actually interact in the world may not be the way someone else perceives.   Speaker 1·43:22Them, sees them and interacts as you are mentioning your being or how your being is only perceived by the person telling the story about what you're going to do with it. So my wife and I can see something and taste something and have completely different conversations around what happened. Literally, I would walk into the house and feel like I'm okay, but yet she's in a bad mood and now I'm seeing as the enemy, et cetera. So being perceptional, that's great. So this is just a good conversation to have us just kind of take a moment and see ourselves for who we are or who we're being. And I just thought that's where this conversation was going to go and you're actually walking right into it, which is great.   Speaker 2·43:58So now I can answer your question. The question that I wish you would have asked me to play into your question is, how can a person's faith fitness? How can you, john Morgan most help a person with their faith, their fitness, their fellowship and their finances, right? And so that would have been completely out of left field because it's kind of a mouthful. But when I ask myself that question, I sit with it. I don't have to try to figure that s*** out because I have faith. I have faith that whatever shows up when I listen to that question with my heart, that whatever shows up, that's f****** useful.   Speaker 2·44:36So I'm going to let my mouth open and say that's how I've learned to make a big difference in a small amount of time, to trust that, to not try to figure that s*** out, but just trust it and go. So I'm going to do that here. I don't know what's going to come, but what I'm seeing is between miles 20 and 26 of the marathon that I ran a few weeks ago, which I ran without training, I had run two or 3 miles a week on and off over the past year. So I wasn't ready. But I did it. Why did I do it? Because I was and am and continue to be fascinated with how much more we can achieve when we liberate ourselves from ideas that are common. Common ideas like you should stop when it hurts.   Speaker 2·45:21Ideas like running when something hurt means you're going to get an injury. And ideas like injuries are bad. I asked Chat tpt, what is the benefit of injury? There is no benefit of injury. Are you f****** kidding me? Every time I injure my hands on the barbell, they call us and they get thicker and I become more capable of doing things with my hands. There is benefit to injury. I could make a mile long list. And so ideas that are so common that even artificial intelligence can't see beyond them, why is that important for me to share with your team, with your community?   Speaker 2·45:55Because when you look at fitness not as a context to produce an outcome that's for your physical body, but you look at fitness as a context to develop a capacity to do things that are difficult and hard, suddenly fitness becomes the f****** fusion reactor for your entire life. And so when I go out in my barn and I hit the bag I'm a big fan of a company called Fight Camp. They're like the boxing version of peleton, right? Yeah, I do that four or five days a week. You know them f****** love it.   Speaker 1·46:24I own a rockbox Fitness. That's a fitness franchise. I own two of those. So they're kickboxing and functional fitness.   Speaker 2·46:30So I get the same idea. So you get it. So when I go out there and hit that bag and I'm an animal on the leaderboard, it's like I want to beat everybody on the leaderboard. I want to hit it as hard as I can, as fast as I can and keep that pace. Right? Why? Is it because I got some ego trip about beating people on the leaderboard? No. Because I know that if I can do that, when my heart's like, going to explode, when my breath and I can't even keep my breath if I can tell myself to keep going. And what I've done is I've endured. And the word endure etymologically comes from indira. That's Latin for strength. And within what I'm doing when I'm enduring, it's not about, oh, I'm getting to some outcome.   Speaker 2·47:09It's not about, oh, I'm suffering now. I'm not suffering. There's pain and I'm enjoying it. What I'm doing is I'm cultivating strength in my heart. I'm strengthening my heart, which in old Latin was to strengthen the will. And I walk out of that barn and I walk back into my office and there are things that I can do and will do that I wouldn't have done if I didn't cultivate that capacity. So I would say for all the guys listening to this, get f****** fit in your physical body because it will raise everything in your life and don't do it for the outcome. Like, oh, I'm going to have ABS.   Speaker 2·47:39No, when you finish the workout, you just got strength of will and heart that's going to actually benefit you and your finances and your fellowship and your faith so much more than ABS ever could.   Speaker 1·47:49Love it. That's great, man.   Speaker 2·47:51Thanks for asking.   Speaker 1·47:53Thanks for answering.   Speaker 2·47:54You're welcome.   Speaker 1·47:56Love it. This guy loves teen. This guy up. Do you have a tagline? Do you have anything that you would go a quote or motto that you live by?   Speaker 2·48:04Yeah, man, what do you got? I am creating, and my being is primary. I am love as loving awareness, as loving kindness. I am magic. I am the gathering of pattern and power, and I create as I speak. I am that I live the archetypal energy of the king. And I know that you will do as I command. I know that I may be wrong, and that's okay, for I am my justification. I am mastery of energy change over time. That is, I am the mastery of power, and I am the arbiter of time. In fact, I know that I have all the time there is to do with what I will, and my will shall be the whole of the law.   Speaker 1·48:48There's a little taste that is pretty powerful. I like having somebody have something powerful to say and respond. Now I'm going to throw the opposite question. Let me see if I even wrote this one down. Maybe it's on my podcast. I'll find it here and I got my notes, but it was more or less having like, affirmations. Let's see, how do you feel about that? Are you someone who speaks affirmations into somebody? Do you feel like it's just cheap words that people just aren't willing to take action on? How do you feel about affirmations?   Speaker 2·49:23So yes, I feel that affirmations are cheap words. I don't affirm anything. But what I do is I declare every day who I am and who I am being. And that distinction is the distinction that makes the difference. There's been psychological research done on affirmations, and in most cases the research shows that they are not only not productive, but counterproductive. Because to affirm something is try to convince yourself of something that you believe in your heart isn't true. And what it does by speaking it is actually with that lack of presence and that lack of forgiveness. What it actually does is it entrenches the counter belief, and you actually feel worse, feel less happy, less beautiful, whatever it is. And so I don't affirm anything. I say it wasn't the affirmation of 1776 that created the United States. It was a declaration.   Speaker 2·50:13We're not trying to convince anybody. This is a decision. Heads up. This is starting now. And it is. And it comes from a space of letting go of the old. And so for me, there's a deep process, a spiritual process of real liberation and forgiveness from the counter belief that has to take place before there is a declaration. And that needs to be a declaration, not an affirmation. It needs to be a decision, a statement. And those things I just shared with you are part of the declarations that I speak on a regular basis. I journal them. I speak them aloud. I create myself that's the conscious inculcation. Of who I am being, which is a capitalized being, not all uppercase being of that ma'am.   Speaker 1·50:53I have yet to find it, but I don't think I need to. I think you crushed it and I am on the same page. I don't believe you can sit there and just tell yourself it's like the person who gets hype in the gym and does a set and screams loud and makes a big scene. And it's wanting someone to look at them or wanting to empower themselves to do something. When you just sit on the bench and do it, or just take action and get it done. So you set up much more eloquently than I did. Very good. Let's see.   Speaker 2·51:19Well, the best way to teach yourself who you are is to do the thing that's an expression of that. There's no better convincer of identity than an action that comes from such an identity. So for me, speaking can be part of it, but the action that's aligned with that speaking. So if I were being this, then what would I be doing? Cool. Do that, then you're being it. So I'm with you.   Speaker 1·51:39Cool. The more you shine, the more shadows you cast.   Speaker 2·51:45Yeah, I think directions. Yay. F*** yeah. The more you shine, the more shadows you cast. The more you shine, the darker the shadow. The longer the shadow. All that stuff is absolutely true, I think of yourself and of others.   Speaker 1·52:03Why do you think people feel that way when people are out shining them? Do they feel they have something to prove? Do they feel inferior? For the most part, when people see somebody doing something great, they have already a negative attention towards that person and they feel inferior. In my opinion, this is what they feel. Or they feel like they can never achieve that. As opposed to saying, good for that person. Man, that's so cool that they're doing that great thing. It would be cool maybe one day, if I can do something like it and be in motion to say I'm inspired, I'm looking up to this person. I'd like to do more and learn from this person.   Speaker 2·52:36Why do you see their innocence? I see their innocence. Man, it's heartbreaking when I shine and somebody else gets triggered by it or annoyed by it. I am. I feel heartbreak for the fact that they have a story about themselves as not capable, that they're not consciously aware of, and they are feeling the pain of they're feeling their sadness. It f****** hurts to believe the lie that I'm not capable of that. And then I'm so unaware that I'm believing that lie and that I'm even feeling the hurt that I get a secondary emotional response, which is anger. And then I project that away from me outward, as if it's that person, and I look for some flaw in them and try to tear them down. So I'm like seven orders away from what's actually going on.   Speaker 2·53:19So to me, that's heartbreaking, that's whole messes there. And that's what I love to help people with.   Speaker 1·53:25Yeah, I hear you, and I sense it too, and I see people doing certain things like that. I just always say it's like looking at from a scarcity perspective. People are like, oh, I got to cut expenses. And don't get me wrong, you shouldn't be blatantly spending too much. But I always say, just make more money. When I lived on Wall Street and different things happened, had a talk on Harvard way back when, I think it was May, I actually just shared a piece of it the other day, and I said, if I could lose $100,000 overnight, I could gain $100,000 overnight. You know what I mean? And that was part of just being the emotional trauma and the roller coaster of money coming and going, and it's having a deep self worth of who you are and what you can accomplish.   Speaker 1·54:05And the stories that we tell about ourselves become who we are. It becomes a belief in the sense of what we can do. So when we started the conversation with you are your own self worth or you can never outlive your own self worth, it becomes true because that's the story that people paint. How do you help people unpack that? I think both of us are very mental magicians, if you will, when it comes down to what we do with clients, because we could tell them to do X, Y, and Z in the gym or in business, et cetera. But if we can't change the way they think or the way they respond or the way they perceive, we got nothing. So how do you get into that?   Speaker 2·54:36Well, for that one in particular, it's a Bible study for me. You're going to love this one, Matthew. Oh, God, I can't remember the verse right now, but it's the book of Matthew. And you'll know the verse, to those who have more will be given, and to those who have not, all will be taken away. And so I help people to understand that because it's their way of seeing the world that often gets in the way of their efficacy. It's not always a personal limitation. It's their map of reality that often stops them. And so my explanation for that verse is to those who believe that they have more will actually be given, and to those who believe that they don't have those who live in scarcity, all will actually be taken away from them.   Speaker 2·55:19And when you start to look at that in the world, you're like, holy s***, that's true. There's actually I don't know if you knew this in the wikipedia you can find there's a thing called the Matthew effect. It's a principle that has been shown to exist in all areas of life. Financially. Everything literally to those who have more is those get more. The people who get the most funding, they get more funding and it just goes on and on in every area. And so it's true at every level. And it's like if you look at that from a place of victimhood, oh my gosh, I don't have so I'm not going to be given you're not getting it. You're saying you don't have as a way of believing. If you so then start focusing on what you do have.   Speaker 2·55:58You start with what you actually have. Like, well, I have my health, I've got my wife and my kids. And then you start to feel gratitude and then you realize that everything that you have is imagined. And I say to people, it's like, when do you have money? Do you have when somebody says yes to paying you? Do you have the money when they pay the invoice or do you have it when it clears and now it's in funds that you can use? Or do you have to take it out of that bank and have it as cash or do you have to eat it? When do you have it? So having is actually something that's a decision that you make. And so if that's the case, then play with that.   Speaker 2·56:35So I have my health, I have my wife, I have my kids, and I have all the money in the world for money is liquid and it flows in abundance. And I'm telling you right now when I say that I f****** have it, dude, I have it the same way as I had this ohana hat right now. And I'll tell you what, when you have something like that, whether or not.   Speaker 1·56:53You actually have it, more is given love that's powerful. And you give me some great sound clips here. So we'll send those your way.   Speaker 2·57:01Awesome, buddy.   Speaker 1·57:02We'll get you hooked up. So I got two more things. We're closing in on an hour here with this episode and I have two questions to ask you. What would you tell your 20 year old self if you know the advice that you know now? What, what would be the person you know in the that would need the advice that you can give them today in a line or two? Just something that you see that is completely something that's not prevalent when you're in that come up stage. Not to say that my audience is 20 to 30, they're probably 30 or more. The avatar is probably 35. But what would you say to that learning experience that you've got today that you know d*** well didn't serve you earlier?   Speaker 2·57:41I don't know. I always find these the most challenging questions and I'd say bring any question. And the reason I find them challenging is because I don't wish that anything was different in my past. I value all of the quote unquote wrong turns and struggles as much as I do the right turns. Right. I have this Back to the Future fear. Like if I were to go back with the almanac, I'm going to f*** it up. We're going to end up with biffs.   Speaker 1·58:03Going to be high rise. I hear that. And I'm not saying change anything, but what can you see is for me listening to you? Have you always had this sense of inner intersection?   Speaker 2·58:18I used to be more of a d*** and I started to be a nicer, kinder person. So if I could go back, I don't think there'd be any downside of me being less of a d*** sooner. So I'd go all the way back to elementary school. Actually, this is the first time I ever saw it. You've given me a good answer that I'll use in every podcast here. Ford. Like I would go back and I would just show myself how I was unconsciously being a d*** because I was afraid that I had to be sarcastic and one up people in order to be safe and loved. And I just give myself a hug and I'd be like, look buddy, you can be kind and you can still have power. So that's what I would change.   Speaker 1·58:53I like that. And I don't typically ask the typical podcast questions. Usually you're the first person who's actually probably got some random ones that just say, I just want to see how you're going to respond actually.   Speaker 2·59:04Cool man.   Speaker 1·59:04I have different ways to go

Sex tips, porn revolutions, psychedelics, and enlightenmentAella writes at knowingless.com. Her posts and tweets provide a unique perspective about the data on sexual kinks and on being an escort & camgirl.In this episode, Aella talks about:* her escorting sex tips,* how tech will change pornography,* & whether trauma & enlightenment are realEnjoy!Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. TimestampsSex Tips - (0:00:21)Porn-tech Revolutions: Tiktokified Erotica? - (0:02:02)Trad Christian Life - (0:05:11)Can you be Naturally Talented at Enlightenment? (0:06:52)Camgirling, Escort Marketing, & Bulk deals  - (0:09:15)Sex Work vs Student Loans  - (0:13:25)Psychedelics and Deconstructive Suffering - (0:15:30)Aella's Extreme Reading Addiction -  (0:21:08)Radically Authentic People are Hot? - (0:27:29)Some Advice for Making Better Internet Polls - (0:39:32)Hanging out with Elites - (0:43:59)Is Trauma Fake? - (0:53:49)Spawning as a Woman and Being Extremely Weird - (1:07:19)Boring Podcast Conversations - (1:12:09)TranscriptTranscript is autogeneratedDwarkesh Patel 0:00:00Okay, today I have the pleasure of speaking with Ayela, who needs no introduction.Aella 0:00:07So it's Ayla. Is it actually? Yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:10Okay, gotcha. The first question from Twitter from Nick Camerota.Aella 0:00:14It's about banging, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:16It's right.Aella 0:00:17Smashing. As one might do in the dirty.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:21I don't see it here, but he was basically asking, there's meditators who are experts, have all kinds of like special tips. He was talking about how they know how to hold their breath or close their eyes in aAella 0:00:31particular way.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:32What do escorts know about sex that the mediocre new doesn't know?Aella 0:00:38Well, I don't know because like escorts don't necessarily have more sex. They just have sex with different people. Like if you're in a community relationship, you're probably like becoming an expert at your partner. So it's like, I guess like you're an expert at like very quickly figuring out so like what a new partner likes. So it's really dependent. It's like super dependent on like reading the person. But one is like, don't assume what they like. Because like for a while, it was like all guys like their balls fondled gently, right? You'd think this is a universal malpreference.Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:11It's not. Well, it's changed or it just never was?Aella 0:01:14Well, some people are just like, get the f**k off my balls. And you're like, okay. But also like, I don't know, I like learning how to ride dick. I didn't really know how to ride dick properly before being an escort. And when I first started escort, it was terrible. I was like, like clumping kind of like in a really unattractive fashion. Maybe something about like, like enthusiasm of b*****b is better than technique or something like more important than technique. Like you don't have to be the best b*****b giver at all. But if you're just like, you know, really going to town.Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:44Yeah, it's not like dancing as well, where they say you don't have to be a dancer, just like have fun.Aella 0:01:48Yeah, not there. Yeah, a lot of it's just having fun, right? Like really, like letting loose as much as you can. These are not like really excellent, like, go get them, hit them techniques. Like probably Cosmopolitan has published all those already.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:02But the 10 things that drive your man crazy. Okay, I'm curious. There's been a lot of innovation in how movies and TV shows are shot and what kinds of plots and tropes they've used. I'm wondering over the next few decades, are you expecting what kinds of like innovations in erotic content are you expecting?Aella 0:02:22It'd be great if there were more funding for erotic content. Like if we had more money, like that would be excellent. But obviously AI. Like ignoring the funding issues. But AI clearly. Like I know that a lot of the models right now are not allowing not safe for work stuff. Do you want to like a normal pillow?Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:41Yeah, let me get her up. Leaning in like Sheryl Sandberg. Sheryl Sandberg?Aella 0:02:47Oh, she's the CEO of Facebook.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:50Yeah, I've heard a book about leaning in. Like when you lean in. That's an escorting technique.Aella 0:02:54Well, I mean, it's just a generic seduction technique. Leaning in? Yeah. Like when I'm on it, like, usually when I'm as an escort, you meet a guy beforehand. And you're supposed to signal that you're really interested in him and leaning in.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:08Oh, yeah. Yeah. By the way, do you? This is something I'm curious about. I watched your YouTube video about tips to have more seductive behavior. Are you always doing that or is that just in very specific scenarios when you're online? But like when you go to a meetup or something?Aella 0:03:22I think there's like degrees of it. Like some of it's not just seduction. Some of it's just like normal social behavior. Like I don't think I'm doing anything right now. I'm checking. I think this is how I would normally be with like friends.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:35Right.Aella 0:03:36But I think there's like some, like there's a spectrum and obviously I turn it all the way up when I'm trying to be very seductive. But sometimes if I'm like enjoying the experience of being attractive, like trying to play into that for any reason, like pure fun, then I'll do it a little bit.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:50Usually not to that degree, though. OK. Another question I was wondering about is TikTok. Are we going to have porn that's TikTok-ified where we'll have like one minute shorts, you just scroll through.Aella 0:04:02They've tried.Dwarkesh Patel 0:04:03They've really tried. Why has it not worked? Well, you can't get on app stores.Aella 0:04:08So there's not like what kind of money like your sort of market is limited, your marketDwarkesh Patel 0:04:13cap. You can just have a website, though, right?Aella 0:04:16Yeah, you can. But it really reduces the total amount of conversion for like when you're advertisingDwarkesh Patel 0:04:22it.Aella 0:04:23And they've tried it a couple of times, but they just didn't have enough people uploadingDwarkesh Patel 0:04:27things.Aella 0:04:28There are some other competitors like Sunroom right now is doing the thing that they're trying to get on the app store. But it's not porn. Like they can be optimized to be sexy, but like really right now, like the markets are not aligned such that like a porn TikTok. I mean, it's possible that if you did it really, really well, but I don't know. A lot of porn is shot this way, too.Dwarkesh Patel 0:04:49So if you want to take like pre-existing porn, it like never really looks good. I guess it depends on position as well, right? Like there's some positions where a vertical would work.Aella 0:04:58Yeah. It's like a TikTok for like only for like cowgirl standing. They have it, by the way. I don't remember if I said that, but there are products that are trying to replicateDwarkesh Patel 0:05:09TikTok for porn.Aella 0:05:10They're just not very good.Dwarkesh Patel 0:05:11Yeah, and another thing is you had to learn user behavior, but people are probably doing, you know, doing their porn and incognito. So you can't, you can't like learn their preferences that TikTok learns. Okay. People with your genetics, like your psychology, they probably existed like a hundred years ago or 200 years ago. But what would you have been doing if you were born in 1860? Because there was no OnlyFans back then, but would you have become a trad wife or what would happen?Aella 0:05:35Yeah, I probably would have been insufferable. Like I was raised Christian and so I got to see what my psychology does in like a very trad religious atmosphere and it took it very seriously. It kind of went just to the opposite extreme. I was like, ah, if I'm in this religion, like let's actually live the religion. Like we can't just like half believe in it. Like let's actually think it through, take it to the logical conclusion and live that. Yeah. And so I was like, I was maybe even a little bit more conservative than the people around me and took it very seriously.Dwarkesh Patel 0:06:03Do you think if you grew up in a left wing polycule, you would have become a super trad by the time you grew up?Aella 0:06:09I doubt it. I might have become like even like a hardcore polycule, I don't know. But my guess is like I'm probably actually suited to being a polycule. Like I am more like, even when I was Christian, I was like sexually deviant and like obsessed with sex and like just I just suffered immense guilt over it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:06:28Yeah. What are you the Christian men you were growing up with? Did they not jerk off? Like what did they do?Aella 0:06:32Well, all of the messaging when I was growing up was for men. It's like they have like men meetups about not jerking off and s**t. Like you're not supposed to masturbate as a Christian man.Dwarkesh Patel 0:06:42But did they actually not?Aella 0:06:44A lot of them would. Well, I don't know. I never like did a survey. My impression is they probably had a lower masturbation rate than most people and feltDwarkesh Patel 0:06:52worse about it when they did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm Christian. Do you think that, so you've done these really interesting enlightenment surveys and interviews. Do you think there's people who are just naturally enlightened because they're just so stoic and happy all the time, but they just don't have the spiritual vocabulary to describe their experiences as in these sorts of like, you know, boo-hoo ways? Is it possible that the guy who's just like super stoic is like actually just enlightened?Aella 0:07:16Well, it there's different like it depends what you mean by enlightened. Like stoic and happy is like one sort of conception of enlightenment, but there's lots of differentDwarkesh Patel 0:07:23ones.Aella 0:07:24There are probably people who like I interviewed one person who seemed like they didn't do anything. They just sort of like are that way all the time. It didn't seem like it was like a thing that occurred to them with any. So yeah, probably. I mean, like, I don't think that there's any like special soul like quality about it. I think like you could probably study the science of enlightenment or whatever kind of enlightenment you're talking about. Like obviously, it's replicable with brain states. And obviously, if you are enlightened, and we went to brain surgery, we could like undoDwarkesh Patel 0:07:48that.Aella 0:07:49So in that case, like it doesn't seem impossible to me that somebody could just be born with that like naturally very close to already there.Dwarkesh Patel 0:07:56Yeah, yeah. Did you meet anybody who you felt was enlightened in the strong sense in the Buddhist sense of like, this person has no thoughts? And no, like you could set him on fire and he would not suffer.Aella 0:08:06Is that the I'm terrible at Buddhism?Dwarkesh Patel 0:08:08No, but like in that sense of like, this guy's almost a god.Aella 0:08:12I've definitely met people who report not having like an internal monologue.Dwarkesh Patel 0:08:16Hmm. I don't believe them. Like they were answering questions. Yeah.Aella 0:08:20Like I've had experience times where I have no internal monologue before, but like the like responses still come out or something interesting.Dwarkesh Patel 0:08:28Like there's no distance between you and what comes out.Aella 0:08:31Well, are you having an internal monologue right now? Yes. Like as you're talking, like, are there words coming in your head that aren't what you'reDwarkesh Patel 0:08:37saying? Yeah, I just I'm not self aware enough right now to observe them. But if I was, I'm pretty sure I would, because I'm thinking about what I'm gonna ask you next or how I'm like, they just yeah, you're saying, yeah, I'm not exactly sure how toAella 0:08:48interpret it. Like there's a way where my guess is the words just like kind of emerge without there being any sort of like word process that happens beforehand. Which seems like a plausible state to me, seems like not an insane thing that human brains can do. Human brains can do insane s**t, right? Like, like your internal felt sense can be so radically different, just just literally evidenced by drugs, like you just take an insane drug, your mental state can change. So we know that it's possible for the brain to be in a state where this is the case.Dwarkesh Patel 0:09:15When you escort, do you charge extra to men who you find less attractive?Aella 0:09:19No, not at all. Uh, no, it feels like counter sort of my psychology. Like in my, my psychology around escorting is that it's like a job, and it doesn't have to do with my personal desires whatsoever. So if I were like charging, I don't really enjoy the same way. It's like, I don't know.Dwarkesh Patel 0:09:39Right, right. It's like, it's like completely independent, which is necessary for me, like, I think IAella 0:09:46have to be completely independent in some way of like my actual preferences in order to do it. Like if I were actually checking in with like, what do I want in this moment? I'd probably be like, I don't want to be here, I don't want to be f*****g a stranger. So I guess like, I just can't let that in at all.Dwarkesh Patel 0:10:00Yeah, how about both bulk discounting?Aella 0:10:03Both discounting?Dwarkesh Patel 0:10:04Discounting, like if somebody gets like a, like a lot, four straight sessions or somethingAella 0:10:08that that seems like more reasonable. That's like a business choice. I don't, I never did that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:10:13But like, I think that could do that. When I tell her how it on the podcast, we're talking about how the people who are top in any field often are smarter, because they have to think about how to get top in their field, somebody like a top YouTube creator, they've actually done a lot of analysis of how to get to the top of, you know, the leaderboards there. Yeah, are the top X-Squads and cam girls, are they noticeably smarter?Aella 0:10:35My guess is yes. Like, like, for example, the OnlyFans, I did very, very well on OnlyFans. I think that was because probably I'm like, smarter than the average. But it was surprising to me, like, especially like camming. Like, I was a cam girl and then for a long time, and this is like really, really competitive. It's competitive because you can see what other girls are doing at all times. So you know exactly what the techniques are, and the techniques proliferate much faster. And there's also stuff like branding and seduction and it's really high intensity, high pressureDwarkesh Patel 0:11:03environment.Aella 0:11:04Again, because like with camming, the site I was using, MyFreeCams, your ranking is determined by your average earnings per hour of live streaming over the past 60 days. And your rankings affect how many more people come into your room. So every time you're streaming, it's like really high pressure, because if you don't do well for an hour, this is gonna make it harder for you in the future. So it's really stressful. Anyway, so I went from that to escorting and escorting what other people are doing are not visible, or techniques are not viewable at all. And they and I think as a result of this, like low pressure, like, private slow thing, there was no ecosystem for like escort like tech strategies to really have like a highly competitive atmosphere. So I just brought all of my techniques from camming in regards to marketing, and I think I just blew it out of the water. Interesting. It was like I was shocked at how terrible the cop I was like this is what the landscape is like, like I could beat.Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:54How do you figure out what the competition is like?Aella 0:11:56You just talk to people? You can look at other escort websites.Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:58Oh, yeah, sure.Aella 0:11:59And you don't exactly know how much they're earning. I did a survey where I asked about earnings.Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:05But it's hard to know. What has building an escort profile? What does that talk to you about building a dating profile? Like, what advice would you give to somebody on building a Tinder or Bumble profile basedAella 0:12:15on I mean, the incentives are different. If you're building an escort profile, the thing that you want is money. Yeah, like that's what you're optimizing for on an escort or sorry, dating profile, you're optimizing for compatibility. So like with escorting, like you're trying to like, make find the kind of messaging that is appealing to the maximum number of people, which maybe is what men do when they're on a dating profile. But for me, I'm trying to alienate the correct people as as a dater. Like I don't want the people coming to me who aren't going to enjoy me actually. Like if I like did the same kind of escort advertising as I did dating, like I would just get a billion men and then like not want them because like, no, it's not I'm not like presenting my my real self like the kinds of things that are actually definitive about like what's going to make us a good match or not. So it's really all about like, sorry, dating profiles or advertising is all about likeDwarkesh Patel 0:13:04D selection.Aella 0:13:05Like how are we not going to get along here that like the deal breakers, you put them up front like. So in my dating profiles, I'm always like I'm poly, sex worker, like weird, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:13:15That sort of thing. Yeah, narrow casting versus broadcasting. At what age do you feel like you could have consented to sex work? Is like 18 too young, too high?Aella 0:13:25Me personally, could have consented probably 15. I don't know. Like I think like if I had if I were in like the right kind of culture and at 15, like this were available to me and I took it, I think in hindsight, I've been like, yeah,Dwarkesh Patel 0:13:38that seems like a.Aella 0:13:40Right decision that I made that I'm willing to take responsibility for.Dwarkesh Patel 0:13:43Yeah, personally, how about the difference between I guess escorting a cam girl is that when you're putting video out there, it stays there forever, escorting it just like you regret it. I guess it's not there forever. I mean, do you see a difference there or in terms of like, would you is there a different age that makes sense for both or? Oh, yeah.Aella 0:14:02I mean, it's like a little confusing. We don't really have consistent standards about like how many permanent decisions youngDwarkesh Patel 0:14:08people can make.Aella 0:14:09Like we groom young teens into paying a lot of money for college pretty early, which I consider to be like a worse decision than going into sex work. Like in regards to the permanent impact it has on your life.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:25So I don't know.Aella 0:14:26Yeah, but yeah, I mean, in regards to like the thing is, it depends heavily on culture. Like we're in a culture where like we have a lot of incentive against doing your sex work. I'm uniquely suited to it, but a lot of women aren't. And a lot of women would like suffer actual emotional damage if they did it. And like, it's important to know that. And so if we had like a culture that like adequately informed people, if you're like, ah, like, you kind of know a little bit earlier on whether or not this is going to like destroyDwarkesh Patel 0:14:51your soul or not.Aella 0:14:54So it depends on like how much knowledge we have access to. If we had really good access to it, then I'd be like, yeah, you could probably consentDwarkesh Patel 0:14:59younger. You should actually make that a goal or you might have already had. Would you rather be $200,000 in debt at 22 or have a porn video of you out there?Aella 0:15:07I have done this. I mean, a version of this. Yes. And it was I think most people would rather have a porn video.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:11Okay.Aella 0:15:12Yeah. But again, a lot of my response, respondents are male, which might be skimming it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:16Yeah, yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. So I've read this theory that if you're a medieval peasant and you encounter a beautiful church symphony for the first time, before you would be like a psychedelic experience. Do you find that plausible given your experience with psychedelics?Aella 0:15:30Have you just said? Yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:32Okay.Aella 0:15:33Maybe. Yeah. Like, I guess there's like a test where like, if you encountered a church service as a medieval peasant for the hundredth time, it would be like, so beautiful, but less cool. And this also seems to hold true with psychedelics, at least for me.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:44Yeah.Aella 0:15:45I don't. I mean, what the thing is, you're just finding like a level of beauty that you had not found before that is really incredible.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:51Yeah, which seems to be true. So yes. I guess then the question is, is it just that is the experience of listening to your first symphony the same as me putting on Spotify, except you just haven't heard it before? So surprising, or is the actual experience like getting on a psychedelic high? You know what I mean?Aella 0:16:09There's nothing like getting on a psychedelic high. Nothing. I mean, like, there's like the sense of beauty and awe is great. And I think there's that in psychedelics. But there's like a kind of like novelty in psychedelics that are just utterly on. Like I can conceive of like a beautiful thing. But like, even right now, I cannot easily conceive of being on psychedelics, despite having taken them a huge amount of time.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:32Right. If I told you, you can press a button, and you will experience one random emotion or sensation in the whole repertoire of everything a human can experience, including on drugs, you press that button? Yes.Aella 0:16:45You do?Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:46Okay. Yeah, would you?Aella 0:16:48There's a lot of like, a lot of suffering states.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:49Yeah.Aella 0:16:50But I guess I'm like, I optimize really hard for interesting as opposed to pleasant.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:54Yeah. I guess that is what taking psychedelics is like. But I don't know, it's a daunting prospect. It could get pretty bad.Aella 0:17:03Are you trying to figure out if you should take them more?Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:05No, this is not even about psychedelics. It's just, are you maximizing the value of your experiences? Or I guess the volatility of your experiences?Aella 0:17:15I just like trying to feel everything that there is.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:17Do you feel like you've done that?Aella 0:17:21Probably not. But there's a lot to feel.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:25Is it important that you remember what it was like? Because we were just talking about how you'll forget what many of the sensations were like.Aella 0:17:31Maybe? I mean, depends on what it's for. It's nice to remember, but it's also kind of nice to forget too. There's a way where I just don't have easy access to a lot of quite intense suffering memories, which is nice right now because I can talk to you. So I don't know.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:47When you think back to the days when you were taking a lot of psychedelics, how much do you feel like you actually uncovered the truths about your mind and the universe? And then how much are you just like, I was just tripping back then. I don't know how much of the stuff was accurate. It was good.Aella 0:18:02Well, I think that for me, the vast majority of psychedelic experience was like, in my head I have a division. Like for me, it was deconstruction as opposed to construction. I think like some people, not due to any fault of their own, I think it's like a brain chemistryDwarkesh Patel 0:18:16thing.Aella 0:18:17Like the experience they have in psychedelics is constructing beliefs. And usually you have this, when you do this, you kind of look back on the trip and you're like, well, I was believing some crazy s**t there for a while. That was kind of weird. But I never really had that because I never really believed a thing. It was more like observing my existing beliefs and then sort of taking them as object. Sort of no longer finding them to be like an absolute thing about reality, but rather like sort of a construction that I was already doing. And that I hold to all of it. I think everything that I experienced tripping was valuable in that way and led me to where I am now.Dwarkesh Patel 0:18:51What were the downsides? How is your personality change? Is there a downside you can identify in the deconstruction? It was just like so overwhelmingly worth it. I mean, the experience itself was often quite painful. And I was pretty non-functional during the time I was taking a lot and for like about a year afterwards.Aella 0:18:58So that was a downside. I would happily pay that downside several times over. But it wasn't like the most rewarding experience. I think it was like the most rewarding experience. I mean, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like,Dwarkesh Patel 0:19:18you had that tweet recently about how you experienced executive dysfunction sometimes. And then there's a story about you working at 50 five hours a week at the factory when you were 19, right?Aella 0:19:29Yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:19:30So is do you think that might be because this I can elitist or executive disruption?Aella 0:19:34when I worked at the factory.Dwarkesh Patel 0:19:35But you were just working 55 hours a week anyways?Aella 0:19:37Yeah, well, I was horrible. I remember being at that factory and being really confused about the way other people were there. I was like, this is clearly not what I wanna do with my life. This is actively terrible. But other people were like, oh, I've been here 10 years and this is just fine.Dwarkesh Patel 0:19:56And I was not doing well.Aella 0:19:57I think I'm pretty, Jess would be like, we're pretty smart. But I was scoring really low in my accuracy and speed at the factory. And I think this is an example of my executive dysfunction issues. And even when I wasn't working at the factory, it was not very productive at all.Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:12What do you think is the difference between psychology between you and those people? Was it just that they enjoyed it more or they just were able to suppress the boredom? Or what do you think happened?Aella 0:20:22Yeah, I'm not sure. Part of it might be just they, maybe if I had just done it for some more years, I would have adjusted. But also, I don't know, I had been homeschooled and I think maybe school prepares you, like normal school prepares you better for a job like that. But you just have to sit and do tasks you don't want to for the entire day.Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:41So, I don't know.Aella 0:20:44I do think also just my brain's different. I seem to be extremely novelty-oriented compared to most people. And my guess is that just made me really not, and just attention, my attention is terrible.Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:56Speaking of which, if you were homeschooling your kids, or I guess if you were raising kids, what does their schooling look like? What kinds of decisions do they get to make when? Do you have some sense of how would you raise a child?Aella 0:21:08I'm not sure, I think maybe unschooling.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:10Yeah.Aella 0:21:11I'm leaning more and more in that direction. My school wasn't great. The quality of it wasn't excellent. It also, I was forced to learn things I didn't want to, but at least it wasn't a huge part of my life. And the things that, now when I look back on my childhood, the things that feel the most valuable for me to have learned was almost entirely stuff that I did myself. On my off time, the learning that I performed by my own incentive, that's what stuck with me. That's what feels like it lasted. And so I'm like, s**t, if that's the case, I should just let my kids learn what the f**k they want, and just enable them, right? Put interesting things around them, and give them a project, if you wanna do this project, you're gonna have to learn these skills in order to do it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:51Well, what are some examples?Aella 0:21:53Of projects?Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:54Things you taught yourself when you were a kidAella 0:21:55that you thought were invaluable.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:56Well, I read a huge amount,Aella 0:21:58which I think led to me being a good writer today. I just read books about things, I don't know. I learned juggling, a lot of physical comedy stuff. I did some movies, some short movies. You know, something like that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:15Could you juggle right now? I'm not asking you to.Aella 0:22:17I could, not super well, but a lot of random little skills, which have turned out to be much more relevantDwarkesh Patel 0:22:23to my life than before. Yeah, yeah, interesting.Aella 0:22:26But also, I remember I read psychology books. Just stuff that, in hindsight, psychology books about personality.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:33I really liked that. I mean, it sounds like you probably didn't have a TV in your Christian fundamentalist house. Oh, we did.Aella 0:22:39We just had TV Guardian installed on it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:41Gotcha. So, could you just have watched TV the entire day if you wanted to, or was that not an option? I'm wondering if the voracious reader was because of all the other options were cut off, or you could have just explored?Aella 0:22:53Oh, no, I was obsessed with the reading, yeah. No, not because other options were cut off.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:57Yeah, yeah, yeah.Aella 0:22:58I made it a vice to read in the shower, because I didn't like showering without reading.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:03It just took too long without reading.Aella 0:23:06I would read by moonlight after my parents to turn off the lights. When we were driving in the car, you'd hold up the book to read by the headlights of the person behind you.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:13Yeah, yeah, sounds like an addiction. Yeah.Aella 0:23:16I read about, for a while, I was reading about a novel a day.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:20Hmm, was it science fiction or fantasy?Aella 0:23:22Anything I could get my hands on.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:23Yeah, yeah, yeah. How did you get your hands on it? Was there a library nearby?Aella 0:23:28No, well, I would just reread what I had a lot.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:30Uh-huh.Aella 0:23:31And just, I would get books as gifts for Christmas,Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:36because clearly that was my priority. Right, right, yeah. Do you think that the ratio of submissives and dominance has changed over time? If you went back 50 years, do you think there'd be more dominance than submissives, or even more so, or?Aella 0:23:50Well, my one hypothesis is tied to testosterone, and if testosterone levels have actually been decreasing over time, then this would cause people to get more submissive.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:59Yeah.Aella 0:24:00So maybe.Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:02Berne Hovart had this interesting theory, where he was pointing out, it's possible that the decline in testosterone we've seen, that's not just the last 50 years, it's been going on for hundreds or thousands of years. So if you went back to the ancient Greeks, they just steroided up men.Aella 0:24:16Like masks. Yeah. That's such a funny idea. But if that were true, would we be seeing a decline in testosterone over the last, I don't know how many decades,Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:28enough to notice? I don't know how you would notice that. You would maybe notice that there's fewer wars, which it is the case, there's fewer wars. I mean.Aella 0:24:38How do we know that testosterone has been decreasing?Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:40Is it just? Oh yeah, we measure the blood concentration, right?Aella 0:24:42Okay, okay, yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:44I'm assuming. That's what I thought.Aella 0:24:45So it's gotta be over the last few decades, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:47Yeah, yeah, but we don't know. We don't have any data before that.Aella 0:24:50Yeah, but we know the rate of change,Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:52so we could like. Yeah. Well yeah, I mean it wasn't infinite in history,Aella 0:24:57so at some point it's like.Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:58I know.Aella 0:24:59Kind of like, kind of peaked, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:01Yeah.Aella 0:25:02Oh. Yeah, I don't know. I really don't. I should have the data now to look, because I did a survey for people on hormone replacement therapy. To see if people who've started testosterone report. Yeah. And I did find that. But it is a little confusing, because you don't know how much of it is like, narrative or culturally induced. Like, if you're expected to become more masculine when you take testosterone. Like, is this like, psychologically making you believe that you are more interested in being dominant? It's unclear. So I incorporated a question into my survey recently. Like, just the last minute, honestly. Asking just like, are you on HRT? If so, how long?Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:37Yeah.Aella 0:25:38So I should be able to just see if that correlatesDwarkesh Patel 0:25:40with just interest in dominance. Yeah. It would also be interesting to see, another question might be, what age are you? And when you were 20, were you more dominant than submissive?Aella 0:25:53And then- Oh, to see if it changes over time?Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:54Or you would just have, if a 60 year old was really dominant when he was 20, then you'd know that, I don't know, 60 year old. People who were born in 1980 or something. Yeah.Aella 0:26:03Oh, you mean like, if it's correlated with age?Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:05Yeah. Or just like, if people born earlier were more dominant.Aella 0:26:08I found like, a surprisingly lack of correlations with age. Interesting. I mean, yeah, I could put my laptop on my lapDwarkesh Patel 0:26:14and then look at the correlations live here, but. Do you think weird fetishes, like the weirdest stuff, is that a modern thing? Or if you went back 500 years, people would have been into that kind of s**t? Yeah, I think so.Aella 0:26:25It's just like, the really weird stuff is very rare. Like we're talking like 1%, 0.1%. Like, I mean, it's correlated with rarity. Like the weirder it is, the more rare it is.Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:34Kind of necessarily, because if people had it,Aella 0:26:36then everybody would be like, oh, this is normal. But yeah, my guess is that it's like,Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:39has something to do with like a randomAella 0:26:42early childhood neonatal thing. And like, I haven't been able to find any correlates with childhood stuff, which makes me think it's more innate. And if it's more innate, then it's more likely to have existed for a very long time.Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:53Yeah, yeah. And people who just had weirder and more different experiences in the past. Like if you're just in some sort of cult without any sort of internet or any other sort of experience with the outside world. I don't know, the volatility of your kinks might've just been more, I don't know. Is that possible?Aella 0:27:11Well, the data seems to suggest it's not really based on experience.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:14Yeah.Aella 0:27:15Mostly, I mean, there's like some small exceptions. Interesting. But, so no, also I'm like, I'm not sure that experience was more varied in the past. Like maybe, like the internet is kind of homogenizing, but.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:29So, since the FTX saga happened, people have discovered Caroline Ellison's blog. I don't know if you've seen this on Twitter. And now she's become, you know, every nerd's crush because of her online writing.Aella 0:27:40Oh, really? I mostly just see people dunking on her.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:43Oh yeah, well, there's both, there's both. Do people, this probably wasn't in your kinks survey, but in just general, what is your suspicion about, do people find verbal ability and, you know, that kind of ability very attractive based on online writing or, is that a good signal you can send?Aella 0:28:02I mean, yes, like intelligence and competence is pretty attractive across the board.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:07So if you're signaling that you're smart. You can signal that by just, I don't know, having a college degree from an impressive university, right, but.Aella 0:28:15I mean, it's like kind of better signal.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:17Yeah, yeah.Aella 0:28:18Like people who have college degrees from impressive universities, I don't think are really that smart.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:23Yeah.Aella 0:28:24And like probably like actually demonstrating like direct smartness is a lot more convincing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:30Yeah, yeah.Aella 0:28:31So it makes sense.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:32I think her writing is funny and good. You had this really interesting post. I forgot the title of it, but it was a recent one about how the guys who are being authentic are more attractive.Aella 0:28:44Yeah. The thing that like I noticed while I was doing this, that I was attracted to,Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:49was like somebody like,Aella 0:28:50like sort of being independent of my perspective. Like a lot of time in, when I'm like talking to a guy who I can tellDwarkesh Patel 0:28:56is attracted to me and he's like, I don't know.Aella 0:28:59Like there's a way where he's like trying to orient himself to be what I want. Like very subconsciously, I think, or like subtly in body language, like mirroring, for example, like if I like sit one way and then he sits that way, I'm like, okay, this is an example of like trying to orient yourself into like the kind of person that is going to like be, make me attracted to you. Yeah. I was just like a reasonable strategy. You know, I'm not begrudging anybody this, but I think like women in general are kind of, like it's sort of like an arms race between the genders. And I think women are really attuned to this. Like women are like really good at like sussing out how much authenticity is going on. And so in this experience, when the guy was like talking to me, like some part I noticed that I was like meditating on my experience and connection with this person or these people, I noticed that some part of my brain was like, just like checking like really hard. Like, do I think this person is like masking anything at all right now?Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:54Or is he like unashamed about what he is? Sort of thing. I guess I still understand if somebody is attracted to you, they're going to maybe mirror your body language. What is the way they do that in which they're masking? And what is the way they're doing that in which they're being honest about their intentions? Is it, how does their body language change?Aella 0:30:17Like usually what you are is like quiet and flattering to somebody else. Like when I was like doing this workshop, like people were saying things to me that would typically be considered faux pas. And make people not attracted to you. Like somebody's expressing that they wanted to hurt me,Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:33for example.Aella 0:30:38But like I would prefer somebody do that or something.Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:42Say that they want to or? Yeah. Not to it.Aella 0:30:45Well, not actually hurt me. I prefer not to be hurt most of the time. But there's something like, like there's a way when somebody is like attracted to me and like doing a modified thing. It feels like, one, I don't get to actually know what's going on with them. Like I don't get to see them. I'm seeing like a machine designed to make me feel a certain way. And this is like scary because I don't know what's going on. And I don't know who you are. Like I don't know what's going to happen once you finally have like come and no longer want me anymore. And like somebody who, and it also like is like, my cynic side interprets it as like a dominance thing. Like if you actually don't need me, if your self-worth is not dependent on me whatsoever, if this is like truly an equal game, then you aren't going to need to modify yourself at all. You can just like be who you are, alienate me, like be at risk of alienating me and then f*****g alienate me and you're going to be 100% fine. And like, that's hot. That's hot because like when a guy can signal he doesn't need me, this means that he's like a higher rank than me,Dwarkesh Patel 0:31:51like equal or higher. Yeah. No, okay, so that doesn't sound like authenticity then but it sounds just like how badly do you want me? You know what I mean? Like how, yeah, how eager are you?Aella 0:32:03Well, it's like, it's kind of like a loop or something. Like it's hot to not want somebody, but it's hot because you actually have to not want them. Like it's hot to not have somebody like be trying to get something from youDwarkesh Patel 0:32:17for their purposes.Aella 0:32:19Like just don't conceal.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:20Right.Aella 0:32:21Like, and even if the thing you're not concealing is like a desperate burning desire, if you're like, man, I just like really would want to bang you and I'm like afraid of what you think of me. And, but I'm like, I want you so bad. Like that's hotter than trying to hide the fact that you're doing it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:35Yeah.Aella 0:32:36Yeah. I would like, I would consider banging a guy who's just like laid it all out because like by laying it all out, you're like offering up yourself to be rejected. This means that you're like, you're going to be okay even if I reject you.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:48And like, that's the, so nice. I wonder how universal that is. Like you go to the average girl and you're just like, I really want to just f**k your face or something. What would happen?Aella 0:32:58I mean, it would probably be polarizing. Yeah. The thing is like by being honest, like you might actually make yourself be rejected. Like the point is not like if you're doing it to be accepted, like that's defeating the purpose. Like you just like offer yourself up and they accept you or they reject you. It's like the stupid f*****g annoying Buddhist concept where like by not trying you get the thing, but you have to like actually not try. You have to actually be in touch with the negative outcome and be like, this is real. And which just happened. Like there, like I probably wouldn't f**k a lot of the guys that I talked to despite non-concealing, but like I still, when they were like open and honest, it still like put them into a frame where they could have been sexual. Whereas like before I was like, you're not even in my landscape of like a potential partner. But like by being honest, I was like, now I'm actually doing the evaluation, like actively doing it and considering you in a sexual way, which was like a big leap.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:51Yeah, yeah. The Buddhist guy to pick up artistry.Aella 0:33:54I'm like, that's a great, that'd be a great book.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:57What is charisma? When you notice somebody is being charismatic, like what is happening? Is that body language? Is that internal? And I guess more fundamentally, what is it that you're signaling about yourself when you're being charismatic?Aella 0:34:11I mean, like charismatic, charisma can probably refer to a lot of things, but like the concept that I'm mapping it onto is something like when they make me think that they like me in a way that feels like not needy. And you can break it down into like body language signaling or like social moves. But I think like the core of it is like, like you know when you enter a party and like there's somebody who like is like fun to be around and they really like you, or it seems like they're like welcoming or like, ah, hey, you know, they put you on the back, they make a joke and then they like,Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:43you know, flitter off and you're like, ah, that's that person. Yeah. In movies, TV shows, games, what is the most inaccurate, what do they get most wrong about sex and relationships? What is the trope that's most wrong about this?Aella 0:34:58Well, I mean, okay, I'm, I have a personal pedestal, which might be like slightly besides your question, but like the f*****g monogamy thing. Like I get, I'm down if people want to do monogamy, but it's always, it's like 100% monogamy. And cheating is like always like the worst possible thing ever and that bothers me. I just wish there was a little bit of occasionally, once in a while, there's like, you know, we call it monoplot. My, I have a friend who yelled like monoplot every time there's like a plot, lining in a story that is, could be resolved by being just likeDwarkesh Patel 0:35:32slightly less monogamous.Aella 0:35:34And I'm like, every plot's a monoplot, like you don't even have to be full poly, you just have to like have like a slight amount of flexibility, like, oh, well, then just bring me over for a threesome. Like, but that's not even on the table. I'm like, not, well, not only is it not on the table, but like, it feels like it doesn't represent the general population either. Like around 5% of people are polyamorous and probably like 15 to 30% are like, would be like open to some kind of exploration, like a little bit of looseness, which where is that in media? Nowhere, drives me crazy.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:01But what you're saying is you take Ross's side and they were on a break. Have you seen Friends?Aella 0:36:06No.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:07Okay, nevermind. It's a joke. The plot basically of the show, Money Seasons, was that one of the main characters thought he was on a break with his girlfriend and cheated on her or not. He had sex with somebody else. And that was just basically the plot for like three seasons.Aella 0:36:22Oh man. So you've engaged in activities,Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:26which are most likely to change a person, you know, psychedelics, you know, stuff relating to sex. How much do you think people can change? Because you're on like the spectrum of the things that are most likely to change you. You think people can fundamentally change?Aella 0:36:43No, I mean, like, it's like a weird question, but like, no. Like if I had to give a simplistic answer, like I think I'm very much the person that I was when I was a child or a teenager. I think it's like innate stuff is like really strong. Like I have a friend who was adopted, but happened to know both of his adoptive and his biological father, fathers. And so I asked like, what, like, who are you more like? Like which one impacted you more? And he says that he just has the temperament of his biological father, but like all of like the weird quirks and hangups of his adopted one. And I think like when it comes like temperament or like your base brain functioning in general, like this is like much more persistent and less open to change than most people think. Like, I think I'm basically the same as I was pre psychedelics,Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:29except with like a lot of maturity over timeAella 0:37:33being added on.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:35So your mission to experience every single experience out there, is that, that's not geared towards changing your personality anyway. It just.Aella 0:37:43No, yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:44Yeah, yeah. But you're not, you say you can't remember many of these. So what is motivating it? Like it's not to remember it, it's not to change yourself. What is the-Aella 0:37:53Curiosity? I'm just very curious.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:56I don't know what it's like. Yeah. But it's weird, right? Because when you're curious about something, you hope to understand it and then internalize it. Like if I'm curious about an idea, it would be weird if I like read the book and I forgot about it. It wouldn't feel satisfying to my curiosity.Aella 0:38:11Yeah, well, there's some, like I think a lot of the way people operate is like sometimes you read a book and you might forget the book, but the book like updates your priors. Like the book like describes some way that the world like history worked in the war. And then you sort of like, kind of update your predictions about like the kinds of things that caused war and the kinds of reactions people have. And you forget the book, but you hold the priors. I think that's still really valuable. And I think like a lot of that has happened to me. Like I may have forgotten the experience themselves specifically, but it updated my model of the world. And also like my model of how I react and what I'm capable of. Like I went through like a lot of, you know, intense pain and suffering with psychedelics. And I maybe have forgotten that, but like there's some like deep sense of safety I have now around experiencing pain and grief that like I just carry with me all the time. So like it like sort of molded. And I know that I said that people don't really change, but I mean, that was like a little bit offhanded. Like there's obviously ways people grow. Like obviously people, you're very different from yourself, you know, seven years ago or whatever.Dwarkesh Patel 0:39:08Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I hope that's the case that you're updating your priors. Cause that would mean that all the books I don't remember, should they have like in some sense been useful to me, but I suspect that that might just be co-op on my end and it's like gone forever.Aella 0:39:23I doubt it. I mean, did you have like any sort of like, ah, that sentence when you were reading the books?Dwarkesh Patel 0:39:28Yeah.Aella 0:39:30That's probably still there.Dwarkesh Patel 0:39:32Hopefully, hopefully. You've done a bunch of internet polls, many of them in statistically significant. What advice do you have for political pollsters based on?Aella 0:39:42I don't really follow political pollsters. I don't know. I mean, advice for polls in generalDwarkesh Patel 0:39:48is just have better wording.Aella 0:39:49Like I'm really surprised. I was, I mean, again, I'm taking a side note, but like I went, I want to include some big five questionsDwarkesh Patel 0:39:56in my really big survey.Aella 0:39:58And I understand that the way that they selectDwarkesh Patel 0:40:00big five questions is just,Aella 0:40:02as far as I know, like factor analysis, you just pick the most predictive questions. So it's not like people were like, ah, this is the question, but still like the wording of the questions was terrible. Like it's so much easier to make clearer questions. And I did use the big five questions. I forget exactly what they were, but I'm just like, is this what's going on with surveys in general? Like you don't want to, you want to be careful when you have a question to have it as worded so that people take them as homogenous a meaning from it as possible. But most of the other polls I see in other surveys and other research, it's like people just sort of thought of a good question and kind of slapped it down and never really deeply dug into like studied how people respond to this question, which I think is probably my best comparative advantage is that I've had like a really massive amount of experience over many years and thousands of polls to see exactly how your wording can be misinterpreted in every possible way. And so right now I think probably my best skill is like knowing how to write something to be as like very precise as possible.Dwarkesh Patel 0:41:02Yeah. How do you come up with these polls by the way? You just have an interesting question that comes up in a discussion or?Aella 0:41:07Often it's with discussions with friends. Like we'll be talking about something and somebody brings up like a concept or a what if. And I just have like a module in my brain now that translates everything to potential Twitter polls. So like whenever something like generates a concept,Dwarkesh Patel 0:41:20I'll go put that in a poll. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey guys, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. If you are, I would really, really appreciate it if you could share the episode with other people who you think might like it. This is still a pretty small podcast. So it's basically impossible for me to exaggerate how much it helps out when one of you shares the podcast. You know, put the episode in the group chat you have with your friends, post it on Twitter, send it to somebody who you think might like it. All of those things helps out a ton. Anyways, back to the conversation. I found it surprising you've been tweeting about your saga of learning and applying different statistical tools in Python. And I found it surprising, don't you have like a thousand nerdy reply guys who would be happy to help you out? How is this not a soft problem?Aella 0:42:16People are not good at helping you learn Python.Dwarkesh Patel 0:42:18At least not good at helping you.Aella 0:42:20At least not good at helping me learn Python. There are some people who are really good, but sometimes when I'm trying to learn Python, it's like at 3 a.m. and they're all sleeping. So I'm not saying that like everybody, I have some people who are like really excellentDwarkesh Patel 0:42:30at understanding and responding to me.Aella 0:42:31But when I'm tweeting, usually it's like, I don't wanna bother them or they're on break or something. And I have a chat where people help me, but often it's very frustrating. Because I, they just like, they're trying to explain, what I want, the way that I like to learn is, you just give me the code, give me the code that I know works. I do it, I test it, I see it, whether it works. And after that, then I go throughDwarkesh Patel 0:42:51and I try to understand the code.Aella 0:42:52But what people wanna do is they wanna explain to meDwarkesh Patel 0:42:54how it works before they do it.Aella 0:42:55Or, and it's not really their fault, but it's like there's the unfortunate thing where if somebody wants to help you do a problem, usually they have to go do a little bit of research themselves because programming is such a wide, vast landscape. Like people just don't offhandedly know the answer to your question. And so it requires a bit of work on their part. And it requires them being like, oh, maybe it's this. And then they post a bit of code. And, but you don't know, I try it and like it doesn't work. And they're like, ah, well, I'll try this other thing. And then it becomes like a collaborative problem solving process, which is like more annoying to me. I mean, it's necessary. I'm not saying it's their fault at all. It's like my fault for being annoyed. But I just want like, give me the answer. And then we can go through the whole like questions about it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:32Have you tried using CoPilot by the way? I haven't.Aella 0:43:34You got it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:35Yeah.Aella 0:43:36It's gonna solve all your problems.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:37That's what people said. Yeah. It's like the ultimate. Okay. Autocompletor. It's like basically what you're asking for.Aella 0:43:42I was like trying to like look into it recently,Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:44but this is like the push that I need to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had heard about it too. And then my friend is just like, I'm gonna watch you install CoPilot right now. Don't say you're gonna install it. And yeah, it's been very valuable.Aella 0:43:57That's good. That's a useful anecdote.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:59Yeah, yeah. I found your post about hanging out with elites really interesting.Aella 0:44:05Hanging out with elites, yeah. Do you, and I was wondering,Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:08is it possible that all the elites feel the same way about being there that you did? They're all like, this is kind of bizarre and boring. And I guess I'll just try to fit in. You know, is that possible? Or do you think they were actually different?Aella 0:44:22I guess it's probably a little of both. Like I wouldn't be surprised if everybody else felt it more than I thought. But also I would be surprisedDwarkesh Patel 0:44:28if everybody else felt it as much as me.Aella 0:44:30Because like when I do have like, it seems like I do have a like actually very different background than most of the people. And most of the people I asked about their backgrounds and they usually come from like much wealthier familiesDwarkesh Patel 0:44:41than I did.Aella 0:44:42Like went to school. Usually that's a big thing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:43They went to college. That's a huge, big, to me,Aella 0:44:47like if you're in my group or not in my group,Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:48is did you go to college? Yeah. And I feel like much more at ease with people who didn't. But when you're talking about these boring conversations, I know you were calling them. Do you think that they also thought it was boring, but that they were supposed to have those conversations? Or do you think they were actually enjoying it?Aella 0:45:01I don't know. Like recently I was at a party and I was like, okay, I'm not, I'm just staying at this party, but like, okay, let's take matters into our own hands. I'm just gonna run up to groups of peopleDwarkesh Patel 0:45:11and ask them like the weirdest question I can think of.Aella 0:45:14And then, and in my mind, I was like, okay, if I'm standing up there, standing at a party and somebody runs up to me with a weird question, I'd be like, f**k yes, let's go. Like, okay, I would like respond with a weirder question. I'd be like, let's dig into this. You know, I would be so f*****g thrilled. And so I was at this party, what I would consider to be like in the crowds of elite. It was like a little bit of a, it was like a party, less like a cocktail thing where people like be smart at each other and more like a get drunk and dance thing. But it was still like a much higher end kind of, so tickets were like really expensive. So I went around, I ran, I asked a whole bunch of people weird questions and just, like people obviously were like down to participate in like somebody trying to initiate conversation with them. But like the resulting conversations were not interesting at all.Dwarkesh Patel 0:45:57I was shocked with like how few conversationsAella 0:46:01were interesting. It was just people,Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:02it was just like, there was nothing there.Aella 0:46:05And I'm like, are you not all desperate to like cling on to something more fascinating than what's currently happening? It seemed like they weren't. I just got that impression.Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:12But do you think they were enjoying what they were doing?Aella 0:46:15That you mean just the normal conversation? Yeah. I think so. If they weren't, they would be searching for something else, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:21That's not obvious to me. Like people can sometimes just be super complacent and they're just like a status quo bias. Or they're just like, I don't wanna do anything too shocking.Aella 0:46:28Yeah, but if I'm handing them shocking on a platter, I run up to them. They didn't even have to do anything. I just like walk into the, I interrupt their conversation. I'm like, here's something.Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:36What is an example?Aella 0:46:38Like, like, like, you know, like what's the most controversial opinion you have?Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:43You just walk in like Peter Thiel.Aella 0:46:44Is that what he does?Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:46Oh, well, he has this, there's a famous Peter Thiel question about what is something you believe that nobody else agrees with you on? Or very people agree with you on.Aella 0:46:53Yeah, okay. I didn't know that, but yeah. My version is like, what's the most controversial? And then usually I say either like in the circle people discussingDwarkesh Patel 0:47:01or like people at this party.Aella 0:47:02And it's shocking how many people are like, I don't have a controversial opinion on. How do you, like out of all culture, like you think that this culture is the one that's 100% right and you don't agree with all of it? Like out of all of history, you think in like 500 years, we're gonna look back and be like, ah, yes, 2022, that was the year.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:19So in their defense, I think what could be going on is you just have a bunch of beliefs and you just haven't categorized them, indexed them in terms of controversial or not controversial. And so on the spot, it just like you gotta search through every single belief you have. Like, is that controversial? Is that controversial?Aella 0:47:37Yeah, but you can make allowances for it. Like sometimes people are like, ooh, I don't know like which one is the most, you know, I'd have to think like.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:43I have so many.Aella 0:47:44Right, or like, well, I mean, there's some things I disagree on, but they're not sure they're controversial. Like these count. Like there's like a kind of response people give when you know that the thing, the issue is not that they don't have a controversial opinion, but rather that like it's sorting. But like I've talked to people who are like, oh, I don't really have one. And I was like, you mean you don't have any? And I would like pride, like there's nothing that you believe. And they'd be like, no, not really. And like, maybe they were lying, but like usually people are like,Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:12well, I have one, but I'm afraid to say. And like that's. No.Aella 0:48:17Anyway, I don't know. I don't understand.Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:20I wonder if you were more specific, you would get some more controversial takes.Aella 0:48:24Like what's your most controversial opinionDwarkesh Patel 0:48:25like about this thing? Yeah, yeah. What should the age of consent be? You know what I mean?Aella 0:48:29Yeah, yeah. Sometimes I do questions like that,Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:31but I like the controversial one is a good opener.Aella 0:48:34It's like it gives you a lot of information about the other person. Like it gives you a fresh about what their social group is. But I also like the game. I've started transitioning to a game where I'm like, okay, you have to say a pin you hold. And if anybody in the group disagrees with it, they hold up a hand and you get pointsDwarkesh Patel 0:48:50for the amount of people that hold up a hand. Oh, yeah.Aella 0:48:52And the person who gets the most points wins. Because people have this horrible tendency. Like I'll be like, what's the most controversial opinionDwarkesh Patel 0:48:57that you have in this group?Aella 0:48:59And then they'll say a controversial opinion for the out group. And I'll be like, but does anybody actually disagree with that here? Like, oh, like Trump wasn't as horrible as people say he is.Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:09I'm like. Yeah, no. One interesting twist on that, by the way. Tyler Cowen had a twist on that question in his application for emergent mentors. So everybody's been asking the P.J. Teal question about what do you believe? And nobody else agrees with the most controversial opinion. And so it's kind of priced in at this point. And so Tyler's question on the application was, what is, what do you believe, what is like your most conventional belief? Like what is the thing you hold strongest that most people would agree with you on? And it kind of situates you in terms of what is the, where are you overlapping with the status quo?Aella 0:49:47Like, I feel confused about this. So I would probably say something like gravity is real.Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:52No, exactly. I think he's like looking for. Oh, something like that? You being conventional in a contrarian way. Maybe you just said something weird. Like, I believe that the feeling of the waves on my skin is beautiful and feels great, you know? It just shows you're not answering it in the normal way.Aella 0:50:08Oh, he wants the non-conventional answer.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:10Yeah, yeah.Aella 0:50:12Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of that question though. Like I'm like not sure that question is like, like the best question to test for non-conventionality.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:18Yeah, yeah. I would have thought by the way, that high-end escorts would be very familiar with elite culture. Because you watch these movies and these, you know, these escorts are going with rich CEOs at fundraiser dinners and stuff like that. I would have thought that actually the high-end escorts would be like very familiar with elite culture. Is that not the case or?Aella 0:50:38I mean, probably some are, but I'm not. I mean, like I've had a few people offer to take me to public events, but never actually happened. I've never appeared, like been hired to be aroundDwarkesh Patel 0:50:51like a man's social circle.Aella 0:50:53Usually people are very private about that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:55That's interesting. Because I would have thought one of the things rich men really probably want to do is signal social status. Probably even, potentially even more than have sex, right?Aella 0:51:04Maybe.Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:05To show that they have beautiful women around them.Aella 0:51:07Yeah, I think my guess is they would be seen as high risk. And I've known other escorts who have in fact been brought to events. So it's not that this doesn't happen, but like, I don't think it happens a lot,Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:17at least based on my experience. No, interesting.Aella 0:51:20It's possible that I'm not like pretty enough. It's possible that like a woman is very beautiful that she might get invited more often.Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:25But my guess is like,Aella 0:51:29like they can't trust that I know enough to be able to pass as an elite in those circles. Like I'm a weirdo sex worker who the f**k knows. Like, am I going to be doing drives in the bathroom? Am I going to be ta

Hello fintech friends! This week, we have a special podcast episode with guest Jillian Williams of Cowboy Ventures, who sat down with Nik at the Money2020 MoneyPot Podcast Stage for a candid conversation on life, the universe, and all things fintech.KEYWORDSfintech, people, companies, world, feel, happening, starting, money, bit, absolutely, honestly, big, terms, interesting, durbin amendment, point, build, investor, products, biggestSPEAKERS* Nik Milanović, TWIF* Jillian Williams, Cowboy VenturesNik  00:00All righty. Hi everybody. How's it going? You've got Nik Milanovic and Jillian Williams recording live at Money2020 In the MoneyPot. Hey there, Jillian, good to see you again. Good to see you as always really excited to have you on the show. Hey, FinTech friends, the podcast that we've been doing for about a half a year now. And it is normally hosted by the fantastic Helen Femi Williams on our team, but she has otherwise occupied in the UK. And so I hope to be somewhat not mediocre replacement for her.Jillian  00:43Bet you'll be great.Nik  00:46It sounds like you'll carry the conversation for us both if I mess up. So no pressure. Good to have you on. I think that you're probably like one of the most well known people in FinTech, but for the sake of our audience, who may not have come across you before, we'd love to just get your quick background and overview and what you're focused on today.Jillian  01:05Absolutely. That's very kind of you. But I'm Jillian Williams. I am a principal at Cowboy Ventures. We are an early stage venture fund. Seed focused, generalist focused on the US and I focus on fintech. So I've been focused on FinTech for last like seven years. Previously, I was at Anthemis, a FinTech fund, and then was in traditional finance before that.Nik  01:26So what brought you into fintech? When you start your investing journey,Jillian  01:29Jonestly stumbled into it. I was in financial services, like financial institutions group at Barclays. And it was just like good timing, where they were starting to focus more on fintech. And because of that, I like being Junior there, they kind of just pushed us towards figuring out what was happening in the new like that next wave of tech. And I thought that was a lot more interesting than what was happening with the large asset managers, insurance companies, obviously, now, like, joke's on me, because I still have to deal with a lot of them. But I realized I really love just working closely with the people who are kind of building for that next generation. And so that was kind of my foray into it. I wouldn't say that, like I immediately loved in tech. But when I realized how much I understood it and what was happening in it, I kind of grew to fall in love with it.Nik  02:21Yeah, I feel like it's not as intuitively exciting as like some maybe more like consumer friendly areas when you get involved to start withJillian  02:29Exactly when all my friends were like getting free products from their, like, from their companies that they were meeting with. And I was like, Well, no one's giving me free money. I was jealous, honestly.Nik  02:40My credit card, my bank account are still held with a like Big Five bulge bracket Bank, which is like embarrassing for me. My head I'm like, oh, maybe that just means that there's like still more banking space for FinTech to capture, capture. But really, anytime I like without my car to pay for something people are like you're a trader. And, you know FinTech has, it's interesting, like talking with somebody who has kind of this longevity of investing background and exposure to fintech. You know, a lot of people have become FinTech investors, for the first time over the last call it like three years, which really felt like an inflection point in FinTech. And we'll get to that in a minute. But you know, myself included, I think that FinTech now looks really different for an investor than it did a few years ago. And I'm kind of curious, like, what still gets you excited? You know, you've seen kind of multiple cycles now in this space.Jillian  03:30Absolutely. I mean, you've been around the FinTech space for a while. So I feel like you've been seeing whether it's not directly as an investor about from the outside as an operator. But it's interesting, because I think when I joined in the US in 2016, there were very few people in FinTech, I remember, especially in New York, especially on the female side, there were like probably four of us. And so the same four of us, like did everything together, because I only became very good friends because like, we were the only people who would like talk to each other at any like, honestly events. And so it's funny just to see how much that's changed and how exciting the FinTech world is now compared to Ben. And so I mean, I think it's such a massive industry globally, that even with kind of the growth in popularity, and what's been happening both ebbs and flows in the market. There's, like, I'm still extremely bullish of it. But obviously, the past two years have just been kind of like the Wild West, where, like both in terms of valuations both in terms of like the number of whether it's like the exact same companies all popping up and all getting funded. Or even, like, honestly, probably some unnecessary companies that like you don't need X, Y and Z for like, I don't know, like a new bank for every single thing that giving you rewards and like some things that are probably irrelevant. And so I think that's something that you're starting to see weed out a little bit but I think honestly, that's more of a testament to like the infrastructure that's been built and people realizing what can be built. And so I think what's interesting is like, as that falls away more of the things that are like long term sustainability will continue to grow out of it. And so I think that's what I'm excited about. And also, it's the, like, kind of, in my view, the first time that we're having, like, mafias really come out, where like we have all of these, like, really big companies have been built in FinTech. And now we can have those exciting people that are leaving those companies actually build the next wave and people that I know FinTech really well start to buildNik  05:37Our market going to ask you to name those companies that don't need to be built. But it's true, there's like, it's been such a it's been such an attractive money pot from like a founder perspective, because it's almost like you had a guaranteed venture check if you're starting a FinTech company for the last two years that maybe some spaces have gone like over verticalized. But to what you're saying at the beginning of your comment, it is really cool kind of how the composition of people in FinTech has changed over the last couple years to like, it's finally like a hot area to work in. I feel like it was kind of the unloved tech child for a long time. You had to have these like hyper nerds who themselves are just, you know, working in, you know, obscurity at a bank for 10 years and saying like, there's a better way to do this. But when you're competing with like Fang companies for talent, it's like, well, we don't have any free lunches. And we're not working on a problem that your parents will ever know how to understand.Jillian  06:24Exactly. I remember telling someone that was like excited about some insurer tech company at one point, and they just like gave me the weirdest look. And I was like, I do get I'm the weirdo here. Like, that's fair.Nik  06:34Yeah, I don't know. There's something to love about that, though, like unsexy areas, it just feels like there's a better opportunity to go in there and be smart about what can be done better. You're not kind of chasing the same problems that that everybody else is chasing completely agree. And now that like, you know, in the last YC cohort, there are three Buy now pay later companies, which like for me, you know, knock on Buy now pay later, there's like fantastically successful companies and category but I'm like, How much more can really happen in this space in a different way? And maybe we need to like see like a little bit more like normalization in FinTech?Jillian  07:08Exactly. And I mean, I know that probably happens, or not probably it does happen in every sector. But that is absolutely something that you're seeing more and more of, and I think that also is a factor because of how much help or easily is, you're able to build FinTech products as well, like an endless we are early investors into simple bank. And like, it took years to be able to build the initial bank because you didn't have infrastructure company is like snaps, unit rides, etc. And now that those exist, you can spin one up in like months. And so because of that, you can have copycats so much more easily that if something's taking off, someone can just be like, You know what, like, that worked. I want to build that. And so you miss that, like, drive that a founder has to like, actually why they want to build something.Nik  07:55It's so annoying, honestly, I like where were the service providers when we were building pedal? Well, when we were building funding circle, we could have used like fraud KYC out of the box, we could use like you kids don't understand how hard it was to build a fintech. But I know that you get a lot of time, not just at the conference, but outside of it, and in interviews to talk about FinTech and to talk about your thesis and your path as an investor. And so I was hoping maybe we could use this time to just draw outside the lines a little bit and go off field and just talk about kind of broader themes, especially like those that tie back to this base, but just see where the conversation goes. I'd love that. So thank you for helping me by putting together some really good question prompts for the conversation. I'm super curious to dive in to some of the bullet points that you wanted to cover. And so we might as well just start at the top and work our way through. Let's do it. So for anybody listening, Julia and I kind of talked about what conversation topics we could cover outside of fintech. And she had some fantastic suggestions. And I'm really excited to hear a little bit more on these. And so we have three general question prompts that we're going to try and get through today. And the first one is what are the three moments that defined FinTech in the last 10 years? What were the three kind of biggest inflection points that happened in this space over the last 10 years?Jillian  09:24All right, I guess I'll start. I think probably the first one that I'll say is the, I guess, like the passing of the Durbin amendment, because that was in 2011. It's a little off of 10 years ago, but I think that that was just honestly like fueled a lot of what has been been tech revenue for the last 10 plus years. Now, in terms of in terms of interchange fee. I think most recently, probably this past month has been increasing amendments to the Durbin amendment that may continue to change that and interchange fee The revenue hasn't been as loved anymore. But honestly, that created the opportunity for so many fintechs like time, current, etc. To exist without charging their customer and to compete with the large institutions in a way where it's like, hey, these companies are charging you tons of fees, etc. And we can actually give you a free offering. And so I think that honestly just propelled that space from a consumer standpoint, in a huge way. And I think honestly, probably more than any other regulation that I can that I can think of impure, impure, FinTech honestly.Nik  10:39Totally agreed. There's a great write up that I read from ao Majola who used to be blocking I think, is a carbon health called like children's urban, but he was just talking about how like that waterfall created. I couldn't agree more. For me, one was, this isn't obviously it's not like people say this a lot. But I feel like the plaid visa acquisition was kind of a watershed moment where for the first time you saw that like, a large scale with a $5 billion price tag that there were a possible existent FinTech and that kind of precipitated, you know, all this late stage activity, all these growth rounds. And then like this back wave, you know, money line nerd while I painted all these companies that went public over the last few years in FinTech. And so now for the first time, you kind of have proof that it's like a multi company category, and that it's a really viable asset class at scale. And that you can just indefinitely kind of tranche up like different companies that can actually still grow. And my guess is, over the next year, you know, in the environment we're in, we'll probably see a lot more m&a activity. And so it's kind of interesting to see how that shakes out with these acquisitions and kind of what that says about the exit landscape, but it feels like that really kind of kick started all this.Jillian  11:49It's funny, because when that happened, it was such a huge deal. And then I remember it wasn't like six months later how everyone was like, wow, Visa got was getting that for a steal like that. So well. And then now, like, some people are like, yeah, maybe that should have like, we they probably wish that went through like, who knows now just given how quickly how quickly the markets have changed. And so it's crazy, just how much last like year and a half really, how muchNik  12:15It's kind of stuff because like MasterCard that acquired Felicity and I think either acquired, like, has a strategic partnership with like tanking Europe and it's like, yeah, these apply fell through yet. MasterCards got an open banking acquisition now. Yeah, somebody I was meeting with earlier at Chase was telling me that plaid when the acquisition happened was a top five venture return acquisition of all time, which like blew my mind.Jillian  12:40That's crazy. I didn't know that. I mean, but to your point, I think plaid in general was also on my list. As just a guest. That's not like a moment. But like, some thing in FinTech, that was huge, because it really unlocked almost everything else in FinTech in a way that I don't think most people actually think about. Because your bank really just owned every single aspect of data of yours. And especially in the US, like there was really no other way of getting that. And for most of the companies that exist now, they usually need Platt or now like there's MX, ethnicity, etc. But like, eventually need one of these companies to be able to exist. And so I think like the existence of plaid and the fact that like, especially early on, now they have more partnerships, but like they were scraping your data, they were being shut down by the banks constantly, like they were doing everything kind of like a backdoor to get into stata was like really huge for growing the FinTech space, and even enabling all of these other apps to exist. And so that's something that I constantly think about that, like how massive of an opportunity to plaid was.Nik  13:49Yeah, totally agree. I mean, that's kind of perfectly, you know, one of the inflection points, I guess, or kind of key dynamics that was really interesting to me over the last 10 years is that you have this move down the stack. And a lot of people who tried to solve second order problems and realize they should be working on first order problems. I think Stephanie overt or am is a good example where she wanted to build basically like real time intelligent money movement, and like automatic optimization, I might move in and realize, oh, there's actually like a fundamental problem about like, how money is able to move in real time we're gonna go down the stack and plaid feels like a great example of that. Yeah. What are some? What are some other moments or other kind of big trends that I thinkJillian  14:27the another one for me is? It kind of goes back to like, Alright, so the Durbin amendment is probably the biggest regulation I think of but other things that have been the big biggest catalysts in FinTech have honestly been like the macro economic. I don't know what the word is, like, macro environment events have been the biggest catalyst. So I think of like COVID FHA is a more recent one has been a huge one, especially in terms of consumer adoption. And just like consumer awareness of FinTech like if you ask most people that like aren't FinTech nerds like us before, like how many of them unheard of chime, probably bear view. And then they went from like, what like 3 million to like 14 niche million users in the span of a year, year and a half. That's tremendous growth. And like more people now know it, they exist or even like Robin Hood, Coinbase, etc, and the growth of those companies. But then you even think back to like, the global financial crisis in 2008. Like, that was the impetus for so many companies start, like, if you look at interviews of like, John Stein from Betterment, like, that is why he started Betterment was like, basically, in response to the global financial crisis. And so many of these companies were like, We need to take back what is happening with the banks, and also this kind of unbundling of the financial stack. It's interesting, now we're seeing kind of like a re bundling. But at that time, it was like, let's build something that we can actually have a better customer experience and build it for the customer. Because it was such a missed like, this, like loss of trust between the customer and consumer. And the banks at that time after that did a crisis.Nik  16:02Yeah, it's super interesting, when you read accounts of the financial crisis, and people talking about how difficult was to recruit at these, like prestige banks afterwards, if you're a smart Ivy League accomplished, you know, could walk and chew gum at the same time, you know, graduate, you could get a job at a bulge bracket bank, and you know, these investment banks were really kind of the premier, like status, occupation, and then all of a sudden that gravitated to like the fang companies and the tech companies of the world. We're making the world a better place, you know, in quotes. But that changed a lot. And I totally agree with you. I mean, the other answer I had in mind for this question was COVID, specifically, as a big macro driver. You know, you nobody knew what a QR code was three years ago. And now, I think we all hope restaurants are gonna bring back paper menus, because we're sick of using them or nobody put a card into a digital wallet before but then all of a sudden, you don't want to touch the point of sale system. And so now everybody's loading up Apple Pay and Google Pay. And I definitely feel like there's kind of a big paradigm shift. Like even like, so many news stories over the past couple years have kind of been FinTech adjacent, like the Gamestop mania, and all these meme stocks, you know, that were facilitated by the Robin Hood's of the world?Jillian  17:11Absolutely. I mean, I did teach my nine year old grandfather how to deposit a check on his phone during COVID. I don't think he ever thought he was going to do that. For a second,Nik  17:20I thought you're gonna say I had to teach my 90 year old grandfather how to trade options. And I was like, why? I mean, you know, YOLO, honestly,Jillian  17:30honestly, yeah, like the money sign.Nik  17:35Okay, question number two. What do you think the biggest lifestyle change? We'll see in our lifetime? Is? I'll take a jump on this one, since I think it's only fair not to make the answer first, every time. One of the biggest lifestyle changes, I think we're gonna see is is just kind of the endpoint for globalization. Like, especially since the this is as far out of my domain expertise as you go. So we'll see how many people call me out for being like, very out of pocket on this one. But like, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, you had like a much more interconnected world. And you had this kind of growth of the Chinese economy too. And a lot of manufacturing moved from centers like the US and Europe offshore to low cost areas, and you didn't really have like labor capital, moving across borders as much. But now all of a sudden, especially like with COVID, and as an accelerant, you have more and more people working remotely, like even in larger companies like in a sustainable way, like not on a contract basis. And Bain published like 10 years ago, this report called like a world awash in capital about how capital is moving really seamlessly to investment opportunities across borders, and it feels like something where you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Once globalization started, it's gonna be really hard to turn that off. And it's gonna be kind of a good test with like, Russia and China now, D dollar rising like whether you get trade bloc's, but it feels like capital, labor or investment should kind of chase the maximum points of return. And borders don't really matter for that. And so I feel like we're likely to see a much more globalized world, you know, kind of regardless of like little hiccups and like geopolitical events over the next 50 years, we're really you're working with an international team, and you're also competing against international competitors, regardless what industry you're in. And you have a supply chain that's diversified between like three different, like countries, like low cost centers, and that's just going to change like, the composition of what jobs are available and where and, you know, maybe it's the case that the best lawyers in the world all you know, are educated like Buenos Aires, Argentina, and so they become like the lawyers for like international corporations rather than like the Harvard Law graduates of the world. The interesting to say,Jillian  19:45I completely agree in terms of the long term moving there. I think, maybe this is like I jaded side a little bit, but like, there are a lot of hiccups along the road, especially due to politics that we're seeing kind of like across the world, not just the US, but like all around the world that are kind of trying to be like, very anti globalization right now. And so I think it's interesting to see how that tension plays out in the short term. I think long term, it's really hard to kind of fight that. And because of a lot of the a lot of what you said, but I do think it's interesting to see how that continues to play out. This kind of like back and forth tension. But I do agree with you in terms of like the long term, that's absolutely where we're moving.Nik  20:29Yeah, no, I think that's totally right. Like you, you have the pendulum swing, and then it needs to swing back a little bit. There's always a reaction. And I feel like there's a lot of political issues where that's the case where you have like, forward movement, but then you have the reaction, that forward movement, and you think it was Obama who is saying at the end of his term, he's like, you know, what, sometimes things Zig is sometimes things and you have to realize that like the trend lines go in the right place, even if you have setbacks in the way they'reJillian  20:52no, absolutely. I think kind of, maybe my first point is somewhat similar to yours, because I'm thinking about a little bit us focus, but I think there's gonna be a really big shift in the like structure of how we think of employment. And I don't actually think of this just because of COVID. And like remote work, but I think so much of our lives are tied to our employer, especially around our finances, like in terms of, obviously, how we get paid, but like 401k, or health care, and everything like that. And that's not necessarily the most sustainable. And then when we think about like, I mean, this is a problem that, like so many people have been talking about, but like to get loans, you basically need to be a typical salaried worker, because it is so much harder for people that don't have that normal structure job, when like, we are increasingly seeing people have alternative income. And even if they have a traditional job, they might be making a lot more money elsewhere, or having two jobs. I think there was like some employer recently that I think it was a big thing on LinkedIn, where like, they fired two employees, because they were having two jobs. And like he didn't know for months that he was they were having two jobs like,Nik  22:06it's like says like a little bit more about you as an employer. It's like, are you really getting everything?Jillian  22:10Exactly? Like maybe they were doing a good enough job to do jobs? I don't know. And so I think that we're probably going to see some sort of a shift in terms of really like how, and if it's just like the benefits, but how a how we structure employment in the US and what that looks like. And everyone exactly know what that will look like, whether it's like we move away from the typical w two, or that format, but also how we structure a lot of what's tied to it and how we structure all of the like, financial benefits that's tied to it as well, because I think that's just like so prohibitive towards most people, and how we're moving in the world. And so I think that that will be really interesting to see how that continues to play out over time.Nik  22:52Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, to to kind of like quick fire ideas that that makes me think about your comment is one, the emergence of Dows and web three over the last year, you know, there's a lot of hype, this base grew too quickly, it consolidated again, and we'll see kind of what the long term viability of like dals looks like. But it's kind of the first attempt to re architect like the, like, corporate Corporation structure that we've had new assets like persistent for, you know, hundreds of years. And it's interesting, it's like, do you have this third path from WTS, or 10 eyes? Do you have kind of a spectrum of options available to you, where instead of being a salaried worker, for one company, you are a participant in four days, and you work on four different products, and the amount that you get paid is like relative to your input, and you just kind of like move seamlessly between them. And the other thought I had was, when you talk to people who come to the US, especially from Western Europe, or like Nordic countries, they're always shocked, like you said, by kind of how much of your life outside of work is immediately dependent on like, Where specifically you're working, like not even the work you're doing, but like the company that you're tied to. And there's this quote, you know, a developed country is not one where everybody has a car, but it's one where rich people ride public transit, I feel like that kind of applies here to where the shift in labor classification might mean that hopefully, you get kind of better social services and a better social safety net. And so stuff like having like your, you know, healthcare tied to like we're working specifically isn't as much of like the model that we have going forward.Jillian  24:24Yeah. I mean, I think it's crazy that like you change jobs, and like you might have to entirely uproot, like what doctor you're seeing or might not be able to get like a specific procedure because of that, that like doesn't, that shouldn't make sense. So that's wild. But maybe I'll continue because I think maybe like next one is sort of tied to the healthcare system. I think one area and fintech that I've been like wanting to invest in forever is at the intersection of healthcare and in FinTech. And part of that's because like, I shouldn't shock everyone that like our healthcare system is fully broken, and I think like will continue to just get worse and implode upon itself, and so at some point in our life, I kind of hope it does, mainly so that it can hopefully be rebuilt. And actually, in a format that works is I think, one of the challenges as much as I continue to like, look at a lot of investments and really want to make an investment of space, I think that a lot of them are probably more so like, band aids. Yeah. And that, we probably just need to actually fix the structure because none of the incentives work.Nik  25:31Yeah. Tyler Durden Fight Club approach, just blow up the healthcare. Start from scratch. Exactly.Jillian  25:36And so I think that that is probably one of the things that I look at quite a bit because like, both in terms of like how people live their lives, whether it's a one of those spectrum, like some people are uninsured, and or people don't want to be insured, because like, they can't afford it, or people just like, then don't go to the doctor. And then it makes themselves worse. And so then when they have a catastrophic issue that like impacts our healthcare system, even worse, but then just like the impacting costs of our healthcare system, like compounding over and over, is, is insane to me. And it's both like internally within, like, between payers and like how I'm not gonna go into like, how billing is done and things like that. But also, just in terms of like, how consumers operate. And so I think that like, hopefully, I'm not sure it looks like another just like, new presidential health care plan fixes up other than, like, we actually need to do something to fix the entire structure of it. It's interesting,Nik  26:34you know, you being a FinTech investor and wanting to look at the intersection of healthcare and fintech, because like just from that description alone, you feel like you can see the parallels there. There's a lot of legacy architecture and regulation that creates a certain system in the way it's set up. And so even if you take a step back and say, Oh, this is actually the Pareto optimal way. To solve this, there's a lot of path dependency for how the system is now where you're going to kind of make incremental improvements within the bounds that you have. And like, it would probably be better to be able to just start over from scratch. But easier said than done. When you have a very strong vested interest from companies have poured a lot of money into lobbying.Jillian  27:07Exactly. Yeah, too many people get paid way too much for this to ever happen. So it's a little bit of a pipe dream for me. But we'll go can wish not me that's exactly.Nik  27:21Alright, well, I want to make sure that we're staying on top of our time here. What one other one? Oh, man, this is like come given the most basic answers. So this is where you can start tuning out if you're listening in. But another kind of trend that I think is gonna change our style and quality of life is more mass adoption of different like point solutions and AI. You're starting to seeJillian  27:44crbc Yeah, exactly. Yeah, as the new hot topic.Nik  27:47I'm investing at the intersection of AI crypto. All the buzzwords. Yeah, exactly. please invest my fun to not a general solicitation. But, you know, alright, so like, there's all this hype around these, like consumerize AI products like GPT, three and Dolly and stable diffusion. Now that like, I don't know, if there are like proven commercial use cases yet. So it's like really cool to play around with these tools. But, you know, there's a couple of interesting companies like Jasper that's like building like a marketing specific engine on top of GPD. Three, but not, it seems like early days. And I don't know, kind of how investable a category it is yet because a lot of the market hasn't been proven out a lot of kind of scale, like enterprise use cases are not there yet, are still very early. But eventually, you're starting to kind of see that what a lot of what's considered to be creative work or knowledge work is actually pattern recognition, like it did to kind of an extreme point where even writing a good book, or making an evocative piece of art, is actually kind of just pattern recognition, where if you look at enough, really, you know, vontade artists, you too, can make a painting that kind of looks like it should be, you know, high art. And then for whatever the you know, goal is of art or writing a book or doing anything creative. You can you know, pass off that product and monetize it and do it and automatically do it like this massive amount of scale, within seconds, rather than actually have like a human creative process. And so it feels like there's gonna be a big labor dislocation from that. And all of a sudden, you have, you know, the lawyers of the world who are not as necessary in bulk to be able to put together you know, all the underlying documents for like a large m&a deal or like a take private or, you know, an LBO. And so what the world looks like after that is really interesting. You know, what new jobs and like sectors and jobs crop up after that, and like, is that dislocation, you know, really disruptive to like a huge swath of the population who all of a sudden find that like their jobs are replaced by like aI they can do like or work like more efficiently than they can. War is like gradual and like do you have retraining programs? I think it's it's kind of it's gonna be an interesting question. See that play out?Jillian  30:09No, I absolutely agree. And I think that I mean, you see it across the board with, obviously AI, but then automation in general, like I remember even I interned my freshman or sophomore year in college on investor sales and trading. And like, there was like nobody on the equity floor, it was like three people or something like that. And because most of it was automated, and they just didn't need to do anything, like they didn't need to pick up the phones really, like everything was on IV, like Bloomberg chat, like, that's all they need to do. And like, they would talk about that. And I remember there was one guy on there who started his career, like on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, as like a ticket runner. And like, he would talk about how like how much it had changed and how crazy it was for him to see like how basically, his job had been automated away. And to see that now happening in more and more spaces, where to your point, like, you think like a human is fully necessary, and you kind of need that like mental capacity. It's kind of like, it's it's very strange to be like, oh, yeah, no, like, we're actually not that necessary, like reading a book now. Like, have ai do that as well.Nik  31:22Yeah. What does it mean, when all of a sudden society progresses, like, in spite of humans, just not needed to like move the wheel forward anymore, it's probably a good time to come out and just admit that my newsletter and my tweets are all written by GPT. Three. I've been on vacation for the last two years. All right. And so final topic. This is actually the question I'm most excited about. I think it's a super interesting one. And I'm gonna let you answer first. Have we experienced the defining moment of the decade? If so, what is it? If not why?Jillian  31:57So it's interesting, because like, obviously, we're very early in the decade, but a lot. That's gonna say a lot of s**t. I think I was told. So apologies if I'm not a lot has happened already. In this decade. I was asked this question, actually, like, probably a year ago. And at that point, I said, Yes. Now?Nik  32:23I don't think so. And was that COVID? A year ago?Jillian  32:26Yes. Now? I don't think so. However, I would probably say that, like, the catalyst for whatever is going to be the defining moment has already begun, and has already been said, meaning like, could that catalyst be like Russia? Is War On Ukraine, starting a much broader war? Potentially? Could that be us going into a much bigger financial crisis and recession? And like, Yes, I think there's a number could be like a much bigger political crisis that we have, potentially. And so I think there's a number of things that like, have already you're seeing like the sparks kind of starting, that I think could be a lot bigger. But I don't think that we've actually seen the climax of it quite yet. And I think that's where I kind of stand on that.Nik  33:22I like that I would have totally said, either COVID, or the war in Ukraine is the defining, like, touch point, like this decade? And when you said, No, I was like, okay, maybe I should up my game in this answer a little bit, like Think harder. And I was trying to think back of, you know, think back on what other defining moments and other decades have been, and you can kind of see, you know, in the in odd Suez, like the global financial crisis really feels like it stands out more than anything else, as an example. And so it feels like our understanding of the world order, and like the Pax Americana that we've had, since, you know, most people like the millennial generation have grown up, ended and abruptly shifted with the Russia Ukraine war. And so the outputs of that, to me feel like a very compelling answer for a defining moment of the decade. But if I had to align with you and say, No, there's something that's gonna be even more defining. In my mind, this is like, I want another one of my basic thought boy answers, but we've watched China grow their economy and grow their influence on the world stage over the last 30 or 40 years, and a lot of people refer to it rightfully so as a Chinese miracle. Because if you look at like the rates of extreme poverty, like they've pulled an amazing amount of people out of poverty that if you look at like the skyline of like Shenzhen or like, Shanghai, like over a 30 year period, like it's just crazy how fast it's grown. And you know, the economy has grown by like low double digits, high single digit percentages every year, and now you're starting to see that slowed down a little bit. I'm sure that a lot of it is due to like supply chain issues and COVID. But like, there's probably also some kind of secular slowdown in that growth as well. And so it feels like this decade is kind of could be a transition point between growing your influence and establishing, establishing yourself in the world stage and starting to exert your influence. And what exactly that looks like, I think is could be a defining moment for us politically, like, do we continue to live in like a unipolar world or a multipolar world? You know, do we have kind of another cold? Where where like, countries independently decide who they want to align with and whose model they accept? You know, a lot of the, like soft power influence like the Belt and Road Initiative, does that become hard power and kind of a more, a more kind of like overzealous foreign policy that feels like, it'll have ramifications for like, where we sit in the US and like, our position in the world, and like how we are perceived. And so that, to me is like, it's another like, raise and ensure that everybody's talking about but it feels relevant.Jillian  35:54No, I like that answer a lot. And I think my only answer, oh, my only rationale for why like Russia, Ukraine, currently isn't is. And again, this a little bit US centric, is because I think a lot of Americans have like a very short attention span. And so like, for awhile, it was like the worst thing ever. And then they kind of forgot about it for a little bit. And I think like, it's come back a little bit, but like until it is, unfortunately, like impacting our day to day a little bit more. People aren't going to think it's like the end of the world. And so I think that's where it's like it needs to progress, unfortunately, out outside Ukraine a little bit more. For it to, at least from the US perspective, be the defining moment. But I do think that Russia invading another country is a huge, huge, like moment in the world. I do think though, maybe it's also more so from my perspective that I do think it can easily lead to more and more of an expansion of of the war globally. And then also, like, there's the risk of like China and Taiwan and things like that as well. That don't seem as far off anymore inNik  37:11this world. So yeah, exactly. Like now, it's like what we thought was unthinkable is no longer unthinkable. Exactly. If you read like early stories of World War One, World War Two, you have all these, like populations that didn't want to go to war. And it was just like, the inevitability of all these, like international agreements that kind of dragged you in there. And I feel like now steps are being taken to avoid that. But to your point, it's kind of hard to tell what steps will escalate things and how, like, what looks like to be to country conflict, spiral and have broader, like more severe international implications? Exactly. Definitely trying to place a premium on good leadership. Yes. Okay, now that we've covered all the easy topics. And I'm sure when this gets published, they'll have million VCs who become experts on the war on Russia, Ukraine. That's my word wrong. But we can we can take the blowback when it comes. I love the idea that you had for a FinTech rapid fire, just power through some questions like popcorn like top of your mind, right. And so let's start. Let's start with a question that I really have no good answer for but favorite FinTechJillian  38:26ad. Recently, maybe this is just because it's top of mind. Cash App has a ad with Kendrick Lamar, Ray Dalio and some comedian his name I do not know I apologize. And it's basically like Kendrick Lamar is like the translator for Financial Services and Financial Literacy between the two of them because like they can't understand each other and it's actually very funny.Nik  38:53Yeah, that was wild, who saw Kendrick and Ray Dalio getting into a room together. So I want that podcast that's a podcast you're listening to Well, we talked about this for a second but I was I thought it was really interesting at the Super Bowl a couple years ago and so if I ran an ad about who should not apply for so if i car and I heard some reports afterwards I was like actually increase like their average like, applicant quality but I was just like, wow, like IT tech is like such a like positive and like, like you kind of paper over a lot of like, the underlying, like difficulties like products. They're just like, leaning into it. I was like, That was that was an interesting way. Roleplay Yeah, I guess. All right. Favorite FinTech or finance relatedJillian  39:41book is probably the lamest answer possible, but like I love Michael Lewis. So The Big Short, like that was the book that like made me want to get into financial services officially. So I'll take that.Nik  39:54That's awesome. I want to trade the world. Actually, in the same vein, I would say My favorite book about that terrifying that I've ever read is the ascent of money by now for and and it's like very, like I feel like Michael Lewis is such an evocative writer and Ferguson also has like a great way of just like taking what should just be a really boring topic, like the history of like money movement, and like Western Europe developing the monetary systems like actually make like super engaging. More recently, I am a big, this is no secret to anybody who sees my twitter but I'm a big fan of Sofia Goldberg is the founder of word answer. And I picked up her book Field Guide to global payment systems. And yeah, it was really just easy to understand. And also kind of like, maybe appreciate, like how much domain expertise you build up in FinTech like, oh, yeah, like these are actually like, not accomplices, like everybody, like comes out of the womb, knowingJillian  40:46Oh, yeah, and actually making it where people can understand like, that's like the payment stack is very impressive. And that making it interesting as well.Nik  40:55Yeah, totally agreed. It's a Christmas present, I'm getting for all my family. Getting invited back to Christmas. All right, FinTech app or product that you use the most.Jillian  41:09I would say. I don't want to say lame, but sorry. Marcus and betterman are probably the two I like automated to take to my paycheck every two weeks. So I'd say probably those two.Nik  41:23They love that. I mean Fintech is FinTech, even if you're getting it from Goldman Sachs. I mean, my answer is equally lame. It's like, it's definitely Venmo I think just you know, real time instant peer peer payments with my entire network, it just made my life so much easier. I have an issue actually, where I created a merchant account for this week in FinTech because we had to accept like Venmo payments at events way through. And they're like, threw me into like a, like a bottomless rabbit hole of KYC for my personal Venmo account, cuz like they're both linked to like the same, like, Chase Bank profile, even though they're two separate accounts. And so like, there was like, a little period where I went without Venmo. And I was like, this is awful.Jillian  42:05I had to, like, ask people to pay back your friends.Nik  42:09That was like, honestly, like, you think it'd be awful because like, people can't pay me back. But it was like, even worse for me. Like when somebody was like, Yo, can you hit me up for dinner? And I'd be like, can I write you a check? Or can I send you a zombie? Like, what kind of sketchy stuff? Have you been doing that? You know? I just realized how much I relied on it. All right, number one item on your FinTech wish list. I thinkJillian  42:31it would be in like, there are some companies kind of trying to do this. But it'd be something that like, told me how to optimize my finance better, but at the point of action, and like, I hate no offense to anybody, but like, I hate PFM. Like, I don't want to see how poorly I'm spending my money. Like I know, I am not good at it. But like, at the point of me buying something, tell me what I'm supposed to use? Is it better for me to use? Like, which credit card? Is it better for me to use a affirm? Or is it better me to do X, Y, and Z? At the point of me getting paid when I move money into betterman, Marcus or anything else like which one is best for me to do and optimize? Or like doing it at that point of actual action, I think is the most impactful versus, like, just kind of giving me advice later on. I just don'tNik  43:20$200 at restaurants last week. Yeah. Like I know,Jillian  43:23all my money goes to food. That's not helpful. I'm not going to change that.Nik  43:27Okay, but who's released here? I actually have the exact same answer as you. I would love just an app that tells me where all my money is at any one time all my money like all three or $49. But like we're all my money, is it any one time and then like has a little flag that can tell me if something's not being used ultimately, like, you've got this much sitting in a digital wallet. Like you should be like, you know, investing in like, you know, T bills or something like while it sits there. Yeah, exactly. Okay, most underrated FinTech founder. Oh, God.Jillian  44:01I don't want to do anyone that I've I've invested intoNik  44:04Silla portfolio. So I will ignore that.Jillian  44:06This might be a little bit top of mind because I saw the person today. But I'd say two of my favorite fin tech founders, just because they're like two of the nicest people are Tommy Nichols and or Sigrun. They're just like, really great humans. And Allah is a great company.Nik  44:28I totally agree. It's been. It's been awesome. Like watching. We like beta, that company pedal. And I was like, Oh, this is like an interesting tool. And it's just grown so much. And I feel like they are so intentional about how they grow and structure the company and what they do and the kind of environment that they're trying to create their workforce and I'm a huge admirer of theirs. Absolutely. Oh man, this is like also top of mind, but not a company that I've invested in and I just want to shout her out but Daraja clued in her co founder of her right foot They're kind of in the same mold. Like, I feel like they're intentionally working on a problem that matters to a lot of people debt repayment, and doing it in a thoughtful way with a good product and kind of the right mentality. You know, do to reach out to me one point about making introductions to prospective investors to diversify, you know, her own cap table, and I feel like caring about that, like, not just like, that you're getting money in but like, where your money is coming from is like a level of intentionality that like I kind of hope to carry and like really respect,Jillian  45:31absolutely, Stephanie's her, Patrick, or I'm also really paid a lot of attention to that. And that's something I respect so much.Nik  45:38Yeah, I totally agree. So shout out to all of you. Okay, we're coming towards the end here. But who would be the mayor of FinTech town?Jillian  45:50I think this probably changes. But right now, it's probably the founders of stripe. I'd say they're just like, consistently the top dogs in FinTech. And I've really changed. FinTech probably the most in general. So shout out to Patrick.Nik  46:07Yeah. And they'd like to it was such a positive attitude to I feel like they're very, like, positive. So we're not going to get involved in petty infighting, we're not going to compete. We're going to layer climate into all of our products, which we don't have to do we have, you know, an oil Geyser of payments, revenue, and yet we're going to be intentional about what we see as bigger social issues. I love that answer. Mine is much more shallow. It's based on like, Twitter activity following alone, but I feel like it's hard to make a case against shield mo note.Jillian  46:40You know, I had a feeling you were gonna say him, for INik  46:42know, I'm too much of a fanboy. But I just feel like, he also I don't know. He He's older than I am. I'm 33. And he has the intellectual curiosity and energy of somebody who just learned about what FinTech was yesterday. And it's like really hard to retain that over time. Like you get kind of calcified. You get set in your ways you like develop beliefs, and it's something that I admire a lot, but like I see it, like, kind of go into like, how many people he wants to meet how he engages all of them and like to me, that's like, just going out and shaking hands and kissing babies and being being mayoral. Absolutely. Okay, we have three minutes. So we have three questions. So let's close the rapid fire. If FinTech were a movie, who would the bad guy be?Jillian  47:26I would say, you could argue like the regulator's for when they stop things from being able to happen. You could argue the bank sometimes. And also, like I think lenders are kind of oftentimes don't have really great intentions with consumers. So those are like probably my three that I'd say. Cuz you can always argue that they could be the bad guys.Nik  47:50Yeah, I feel like it's a play to another question we have, but I feel like there are a lot of non incentive aligned with customer products that exists in the traditional financial world. And crypto definitely and and fintech. And so being able to like understand kind of weed out those customer adverse products, I think would be like the thesis of like the FinTech movement. If you want FinTech to be around, you need to weed the bad guys out. Most transformative slash impactful FinTechJillian  48:21I'd probably have to go plaid or stripe.Nik  48:25Totally, for reasons already discussed, like they just facilitated this whole ecosystem. This is like a little bit like outside of like my, like tight aperture, but I'd say UPI in India. Now it takes in Brazil a little bit, but like it's crazy, like how much innovation and building has been enabled, like government backed initiative for payments rails, like is the government of India, the number one FinTech innovator the last decade, you know, probably not, but like, it's just crazy how much has been built off of that.Jillian  48:54And pace. It was another one I was gonna say, Well,Nik  48:57yes, absolutely. I mean, like pick up like how big like the, like Pan African remittances ecosystem is now in terms of companies and like different quarters, and it's all from a pace. It's insane. Okay, last question. Why don't get down here? Is all FinTech net good for the world. No.Jillian  49:18No, I think that I think a lot of companies even when they want to necessarily do good, don't necessarily always have the best intention for the consumer. And I think it's very given that we are dealing with people's money, I think it's very easy. Whether or not there's intention behind it to get people in trouble because you're dealing with money. Other people don't know how to manage their own money. And so you can easily get people in trouble in that way. But then also, oftentimes, business models are not necessarily aligned with consumers as well. And so that can be a challenge.Nik  49:52Totally. I agree. Maybe a weird question or way to answer to end on but you know, finance is a tool the end of the day and the tool can be used for good and it can be used for not good I think it's our role as stewards of FinTech to make sure that we're moving more resources towards the good side. So, thank you for coming on to the show today and talking a little bit more about how you're making FinTech better.Jillian  50:11Absolutely. This has been fun. Cool. All right. Thank you are You didn't hit record Get full access to This Week in Fintech at thisweekinfintech.substack.com/subscribe

Establishing a school, writing an acclaimed book, starting a successful company - these are all extremely difficult achievements in their own right... but accomplished together by one person? That may seem near impossible for many of us, but for Michael Delman, they've just been necessary steps toward one singular goal: making Executive Function skill development more accessible to all. So how did he do it? Or more importantly, what can we learn from the trials and triumphs of his journey?In this week's episode, I talk with Michael about the essential wisdom he's learned from his 30+ year experience in education - one that includes starting the world's largest Executive Function coaching company, Beyond BookSmart, establishing a charter school, and writing critically acclaimed book for parents, "Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay". Listen to learn about Michael's journey and how you can apply his insights toward reaching your own goals (even the most ambitious ones!) Hopefully from his story, you can find inspiration to build even more meaning in your life.Show NotesBrainTracks (School training division of BBS): www.braintracks.comYour Kid's Gonna Be Okay (Michael's book): https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/your-kids-gonna-be-okay-michael-delmanAn Hour a Week: https://anhouraweek.org/Beyond BookSmart: www.beyondbooksmart.comChan Zuckerberg Initiative: https://chanzuckerberg.com/Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:19While you probably know by now that I am an executive function coach, you may not know that I work as a coach for a company called Beyond Booksmart. I got thinking about the story behind the company and how executive function skills are built into the running of a company that specializes in executive function. I invited our CEO Michael Delman to join me for a conversation about just that. We wound our way through a variety of topics, and Michael shared with me the wisdom that he's gained through his life experience as a student, teacher, founder of a charter school, published author and CEO of beyond booksmart. Listen to learn about how important executive function skills are to Michael, how he leads his company and how he believes that good executive function skills are the key to a successful future for the children of today. Hannah Choi 01:15Hi, Michael, thank you for joining me today. Can you just first start off by introducing yourself a little bit for anyone who doesn't know who you are?Michael Delman 01:24I'm Michael Delman. I'm the CEO of Beyond BookSmart and an educator for about 30 years now. So, in this because I love it. And dad of two girls, both of whom graduated this year - one high school, one college. You know, the usual I have a dog of course, Ultimate Frisbee aficionado and I founded a charter school. I wrote a book on I don't know, yeah, just...Hannah Choi 01:56There's got to be some great stories in there about executive function challenges and, and what led you to where you are.Michael Delman 02:04So, choosing the dog? Absolutely. Hannah Choi 02:09What do you have? Michael Delman 02:09We have a Cavapoo. Great little dog. But yeah, actually, yeah, no, actually, I'll tell you the story real quick. So my wife was a holdout on getting the dog as so often happens. And of course, now she's the dog's biggest fan. But my daughter younger daughter always wanted a dog. And we tried everything, you know, pros and cons list, what were the criteria that must be met in order to have the dog. And finally it came down to just pure psychological manipulation, where I, one day said to my wife, "What if? What if our daughter had a tragic accident, and she never had had a dog?" And my wife was like, "Okay, you win. That's it." So, when it came down to it, the rational left brain logical whatever it was just like that one image of like, our daughter being like, devastated and never having had a puppy that just did it so. So our daughter saved up money and paid for the dog herself. Even as kid and yeah, so there we go.Hannah Choi 03:20I'll have to make sure that my kids and husband don't listen to this episode, because I am the last holdout on getting another dog our dog passed away three years ago. I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet. And so we have to make sure that they don't listen to this episode.Michael Delman 03:35But you know what it's like to have a dog? So you know that? Yes, you know, the joy of it? And yes, no,Hannah Choi 03:40I do. Yeah. Yeah. So you are the CEO of an executive function skills company. So what is executive function and executive function skills mean to you?Michael Delman 03:50Yeah, it's way to make a living. Hannah Choi 03:56That's why you're in it, for the money??? Michael Delman 04:01Actually, honestly, it's the only way that anyone can make a living is with I think decent executive function skills. Hannah Choi 04:07Yeah, you got that, right. Michael Delman 04:09So we're in there to help a lot of people, definitely myself included in kind of the skills, tools, orientation that that it provides. So executive functioning skills are all about self management, the ability to regulate yourself to kind of, you know, understand how to get calm and focused, and, and organized and prioritized and then really know how to get things done. I think, I think, you know, a lot of us have ideas of what we want to do. And I know many people who have a lot more ambition or talent than I do, but I think my strength is probably making use of whatever executive function skills I do have, and then executing on on the skills you know, On on the on the vision. So that's EF skills let you, they really let you capitalize on, on whatever strengths you do have and kind of work around your challenges.Hannah Choi 05:13So what are your strengths?Michael Delman 05:16I've got probably two, maybe three. Um, the first is, I'm really good at prioritizing, I tend to clear away the BS. And there will be times where my inbox is just super loaded and just way too much in it. But that's a price I'm willing to pay to make sure I've dedicated time for my priorities, you know, a new idea, reviewing key data points, making sure someone on the team gets the support they need. So focusing on priorities really, really, really critical. The second is, I'm not afraid to work hard. So, you know, pretty good at getting started on things that I don't like the task initiation piece, and then the sustained attention. So call that one or two more. And then really the the final piece and the one that I think is probably most integral to my ability to make progress is the reflective metacognitive piece. So I make a lot of mistakes, I make more mistakes than the average person for sure. No, no, for real, I do. Foot and Mouth Disease is like they name that like, I literally they have a picture of me next to that. AndHannah Choi 06:34A.K.A. the Michael Delman disease?Michael Delman 06:36he's really good at getting the foot out and then going, you know, now that we've just done that, let's talk about how we can prevent that. Let's talk about what we could learn from that. So fortunately, people seem to be generally forgiving. When you acknowledge your your faux pas, faux pauses, I don't know what the plural for anyway. But the numerous faux pas in kind of my daily regimen, so I find that, that there's a certain humility that I have and need to have, that allows me to be an ongoing learner. And so that's that's like a real, honestly, it's a pleasure for me, like making mistakes doesn't really faze me that much.Hannah Choi 07:24And I think that when, when someone is so when a leader especially is so openly comfortable with talking about their challenges, or talking about mistakes that they've made, it, it gives, it gives, it probably gives a lot of people permission to think, oh, okay, if he, if he can make that mistake, own it and then learn from it, then then, then it probably helps people feel like, oh, okay, I can do that, too. I feel like that's...Michael Delman 07:54 Yeah, I appreciate you saying it like that, I think that's become a more conscious aspect of that kind of that tendency. Initially, for me, it was just simply almost a almost like a defensive mechanism for me, like, a necessity to, like, apologize all the time, or, you know, and then it shifted over time, from just apologizing to apologizing and trying to make improvements. Over time, it's been a conscious way to lead of, hey, we all make mistakes. Let me tell you a story, you know, and people like, you did them again. And that was that I did that. So it's I don't know if, you know, that's entirely good or not. But overall, I've found that, yeah, we all need a little bit of freedom to learn, and you can't really learn if you're constantly afraid of failing. So I think that that, I do think that that's a good thing coming from my position, as the leader of the company that I'm doing it certainly we have the greatest understanding of in total lack of judgment of any of our clients, and no, in addition to our staff, who were learning, make mistakes along the way. And we're good with that. We're okay with that. I do think that in my seat in the company, and I think for company leaders, there is a limit to what you can allow in, uh, in your staff, if they're not able to or willing to look at, you know, areas for improvement, because that is we're asking that of our clients, we truly have to be able to model it. And I you know, it's one of the things when we hire, you know, some of our core values include courage and openness, and, you know, integrity. So if you're going to live those things and be a Part of the staff, you know, like that that's really important. It may not be as absolutely critical in every place in the world, they know what matters for us and what we do.Hannah Choi 08:36So, and is that? Is that something that you have learned? Like, did you when you first started working out? Did you feel that way? Or is that something that has kind of developed and, and grown over the years of your experience what's feel which like, like feeling those those core values like those, the, you know, the asking that of your staff like to be to be to have courage and to be open.Michael Delman 10:38(coughs) I'm sorry, recovering from a joint bout of COVID and pneumonia, not a not recommended for anyone. So, I think I always felt intuitively, that those were important things they were when I was a school principal. And here, I knew that naming values was important. And humility was always there, growth was always there. I think it really took on an extensive amount of work that our leadership team did with feedback from literally our entire staff, to name the values more explicitly and simply, and to be able to kind of elucidate what each of those meant, in practice. And so I think once you've done that, and involved everybody, then holding people to that is part of your agreement is, this is just what we all we all understand. So I do think having those things explicit, is is more important, or adds a certain, you know, gives you a little more backbone to hold people to it. So, you know, that said, we're fortunate, I mean, we've we've really got, we've got the people, so it's not, that aren't huge, you know, huge problems that we need to immediately address. It's just, it does remind us all of when we and we bring up those words in our conversation, you know, like, Yeah, is that really integrity? Is that Is that does that really align? You know, are we you know, are we doing the right thing by everybody in that decision? That kind of thing?Hannah Choi 12:27 So, right. So, when you first started out, like, how did you, how did you get to where you are now? And how did you learn all the things that you've learned to be where you are, I've been with you for a while, and I it's a great company to work for? And I just like how did how did we get here?Michael Delman 12:50Well, um, I guess, kind of, I'll speed it up. As you know, I'll just start with the kind of the origin story, probably my my black lesson plan book from being a school teacher, everything I did as a teacher, every lesson, I just always would take notes afterward on what could have been better. And I think that that, that, that reflectiveness, that real eye for professional growth, professional development was really foundational. It was something where I knew I was going to, I was probably going to fail as teacher, if I didn't do that I needed to, I need to figure out things like classroom management, and good lesson planning and those sorts of things. And I was determined, because it was a dream, it was a passion. And I had a rough first year, and I was, I did not want to, I don't want to live like that. I want to have really great teaching experiences and great learning experiences. So the charter school is next. And that really emerged again, almost as a necessity because it was, I felt that there was more that I want to accomplish than could be done just under the auspices of my particular room, for example, like, kids didn't see connections between the subjects. I wanted that to be seen. Kids were kind of going through the motions a lot, just because whatever, they're just in school that because they have to be I want school to be a place where they could see like, Oh, this is exciting. I'm learning I'm doing something of value. So that was the charter school. That was super exciting partner within Outward Bound, kind of affiliated group and it was just really great. And then that wasHannah Choi 14:36Waid, can I stop you for one second? So you went from teaching what for one year to opening a charter school?Michael Delman 14:42Eight years. I taught for eight. Yeah, so though, but those eight you know, during those eight years, it was there were constant lessons and, and so much to learn. I mean, you could learn, you could teach and learn for forever, you know, decades and decades. I have friends who still teach and always learning. But for me, there came a point where I thought, I need to have a school where everybody is kind of sharing the same same values, the same enthusiasm, the same perspective on what a school is capable of. And, and so that school, which is still around doing great, it's a, you know, I love that place and what it's all about, it's really extraordinary opportunity I had there, but then to kids, you know, into it, and for years and his principal and working all sorts of hours and days of the week that are not days, and hours that you should be working, I needed something a little more sane. And, and then I also was a little bit distant from, you know, like, the actual work. And so I want to be back on the ground more. So I started beyond booksmart different name at the time thinking outside the classroom. And, you know, and I started that, because we'd had kind of, uh, you know, how the schools have typically like a bell curve of students, right, you know, in terms of, you know, these your average kids easier. I see, well, we had more of a barbell, you know, like, it was, like, you know, we had kids that were all sorts of kids were twice exceptional, as we call them now, you know, smart, but scattered, and it just seemed that we drew kids that were in a lot of ways like me, that were, they really wanted to learn, but they had something in their way. And I've always had those challenges those those executive function challenges myself, and so it was a real pleasure to kind of like, figure that out, and to build a school that would create, like, really, really rich opportunities for deep research and work, but also provide all that support the necessary support, to enable that, that level of ambition to be, you know, to kind of be potentiate it. So that was over a period of several years. And then so Beyond BookSmart, emerged as a chance to really do something special for students without all the restrictions of those nightmarish bureaucratic reports you have to do, and many, many stakeholders instead is really focus on what does this person actually need. And it really, I didn't ever anticipate in the early days that it would be as big or as popular, it was just something that I felt I had to do. And the demand kept coming. You know, we expanded from middle school and high school to elementary and then college and then adults and, you know, new division now on its way that we're built. You know, it's been done for a bit now on on schools, and, and corporations, but it's just there are a lot of opportunities that that keeps seeming to evolve, because it feels like these are the skills people most need right now.Hannah Choi 18:21It, you know, I've been picking my kids up on the playground after school for the last six years. And when I, when people asked me, you know, what do you do for work? And I tell them, they, in the beginning, they never knew what I was talking about. And now when it comes up people, so many more people know what executive function skills are. And it's been really interesting to see, to measure the awareness through rather people know what I do for my job or not. So yeah,Michael Delman 18:57It is starting to make waves and you know, like the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, you know, which, you know, Zuckerberg of Facebook, whatever. Take away all the things to talk about on that. Just focusing on on this, they chose three areas to focus on reading, mathematics, and executive function skills. So that was a real acknowledgement from a group that you know, a large, large business, one of the world's biggest saying, this is really, really going to be so the critical 21st century skills, if we're going to even make it to the 22nd century as an intact civilization with, you know, where we are wrestling with problems that require a level of insight and discipline and focus and maturity, that metacognition metacognition, the emotional regulation, the impulse control, that we we really are, you know, we're seeing a lot of breakdown in the world and in our own country. And it's hard because breakdown leads to breakdown, you know, you see other people losing it and badly behaved and all over the place, he just just watch the news. These are the skills that I think can save us. I mean, I think they're the skills are truly I mean, on a personal level, they lead to much better personal success, and that's excellent, it's good for us, you know, any of us individually that are doing well, that's great. But they also really, I think, fundamental skills to the fabric of our, of our society, people who can look at more than one side have a, you know, have an argument, and, and be calm with that, you know, and, and people who can say, you know, I'm not going to make up facts, I'm gonna go with reality, I'm going to be paced, I'm going to do what's realistic, I'm going to compromise. So for the greater good. I mean, these are things that, you know, we hope for, and often don't see in our official elected leaders, for example, but we can do it on local levels, we can do it with each other, we can do it on a community basis. And, you know, take the politics out of it, and just have, as humans kind of think thoughtfully together. And, and so I think these executive function skills are the root of the familial success are the roots of community success. And obviously, they're the root of individual success. So, you know, if we contribute to that, then that's really like, that's amazing. That's a that's, that inspires me, right?Hannah Choi 21:46Yep. Something that I've said before, in, in, on the podcast, and that's something that I know a lot of us, probably every coach feels is that when we after a client graduates and they go out into the world, we hope that they can teach, teach their friends, or teach their siblings or their parents or somebody, something that they've learned, and maybe they just teach it through modeling. But just I love thinking about them being out in the world, and, and I sharing all that,Michael Delman 22:15yeah, and I even love the stories of kids teaching their own parents, you know, like, the kid learns something in one of our sessions, like the five finger breathing and, you know, some sort of way to self regulate, or the hand model the brain or, you know, what, neuroplasticity? Is any of that. And then the parents say, you know, this is really useful for me, do you think could I get the coaching to and, you know, or whether or not they need it, they see oh, my gosh, you know, it's pretty transformative. So, yeah, so good stories.Hannah Choi 22:49That comes up a lot, where, and when I was talking with Peg Dawson, about how parent adults, they feel like there's this pressure that they're that they should just already have that all figured out. And, and, and of course, we don't, or a real realization, like, oh, that's why, like, that's why I can't do X, Y, or Z. And that it's okay. It doesn't mean you're a bad person, or you know, anything is wrong with you. But, and then there's strategies and tools and things that you can learn to make it easier.Michael Delman 23:30And you were kind enough to ask me what my strengths were early. So apparently, you know, at least anyone listening might at least temporarily believe I've got straights. But but you know, when it comes to the areas of challenge, and, you know, what's kind of driven me to work on this stuff, emotional regulation, that's always been profoundly difficult for me. You know, I struggle with that, both because of ADHD and mental illness struggles that I had growing up. And these were not things that I necessarily wanted to learn. They were things that I had to so the self reg piece, learning to manage strong feelings really, really just for me, absolutely critical. Organization. Luckily, the camera's view is limited. It's not my forte, I work around it, I It's better than it used to be. It's good enough. I do what I must, but, you know, I tend to lean on my strengths and then the weaknesses, I've tend to develop compensatory strategies to work around. But I think, for all of us, you know, we definitely need we need to acknowledge that those areas of challenge that's okay. I mean, we all have, you know, we're don't have to be perfect. Hannah Choi 24:48And I think I think some of that reflection piece that you were talking about, it really comes into play there. And if you are able to stop and reflect and think about like Who Am I? And where am I in? What do I want? And where am I going? And am I happy with with this? And, and it's really difficult to do that. And it's also it also ends up being difficult because you often don't know the answer. Like you don't know...25:13I will tell you, I'll tell you a funny story. I never shared this on a podcast before or any interview. But when I was, I think six or seven years old, is one of my earliest memories came home. I had been picked on at school for just being me being me or kids being mean, or whatever it was, and, and I, my mom sat me down on the stairs, I remember we were like three or four stairs from the bottom. And, and I told her, she very empathetically said, "Well, what do you think you could do differently?" And it's very interesting, because on the one hand, it's a little bit, you know, I'm six or seven, I have no idea. You know? Secondly, it's, it's also it's like, well, what about the Oh, poor thing? You know, that must have been so hard. Let's go, let's go beat those kids up, you know? Hey, Mom, you know, me and dad, you know, come over, we beat the crap out of this. But I'm, it is one of my earliest memories, which is trying to figure out, oh, what could I do to improve the situation? Now, I think one of the key things, one of the reasons it was successful, was, as I said, it was said with some degree of empathy, there was a, it was probably more of the tone than the words just like, ah, you know, like, it could have just been that much just a little, Oh, sweetie, you know, well, what do you think, you know, maybe we are you, you know, could do that would, you know, or might might do differently? Yeah, I think that that was kind of taught to me at an early age is, you know, what do you control? What's within your power? So I, although, you know, we talked to Beyond BookSmart a lot about "knock before entering", we talked about kind of R before T, right, you know, "reach before teach" and, you know, "relationship before task", but the Relationship was there. And yeah, and the Reach was there. So I think that that made it easier, you know, that she could teach me because she'd already reached me. And I do think that that's, I think that is what we want to develop in our in our kids is, what is within your sphere of control your sphere of influence, and, you know, and not just your sphere of worry, right, you know, those those well known sphere so far. Otherwise, it's just, well, that person's a jerk that I'll tell you a funny story. I was in college, and I found myself in therapy. I was like, Oh, my God, you know, there's so much on my mind. And, and I complained about someone who is just a complete "beep", you know, can't say the word. And therapist said, "Michael, I'll tell you some, there's never a shortage of beeps." And honestly, you know, like, honestly, have anything said to me, like in that entire therapeutic experience, that was the one that resonated was never a shortage of that was what do I.Hannah Choi 28:31So what are you going to do? When are you going to do differently? Yeah, please. Yeah. I know, that's, you know, I see that a lot with my kids, you know, if they're struggling with a teacher that they don't like, or, you know, whenever it's such a, it's a hard lesson to learn, but it's so important, because you're right, there's never a shortage of beeps, andMichael Delman 28:50never shortage in the world. I had a student I was coaching her years ago. And she was a senior, great kid. And, you know, I said, What's one of the things that you learned this term? And she said, Well, what I learned is that, at the end of the term, I am done with that teacher that I could not stand. But I'm never done with a grade that she gave me. And I was like, oh, you know what? Good for you. Yeah. And I figured it out. It doesn't really matter that you didn't love that teacher. It's, I mean, granted, it would have been a lot easier for her if it had been a teacher that understood her and empathize and connected and, you know, figured out the ways to make learning accessible for her all that stuff. But really best that she could do given that given the situation was, What could she do? So? Yeah,Hannah Choi 29:47So I'm just curious about more, to learn more about what it's like to be the leader of a company that that teaches people how to develop their executive function skills, does that impact you as a leader? And does it impact how you create your teams and how you structure the company even like down to meetings? Like, cuz I imagine you build executive function thought into all of that way more than other companies, might.Michael Delman 30:24We, we tend to hire people who have really good executive function skills. It just makes it easier because they'll do their jobs better than people that, you know, on average, you know, don't. Some of it is is, you know, some of it is really it's the people, and it's the structures, we definitely structure things. I guess, Hannah, you know, I'd probably look at a couple of aspects. The first is, we are definitely a learning organization, we're always, always inviting in like, an, you know, new consultants with new perspectives, to challenge us, because what you think, you know, and what was really effective, say, last year, or for the past two or three years, now, it needs some some rethinking, we tend to be pretty structured. And I'd say increasingly, so we've got really good dashboards to measure what are called KPIs or key performance indicators, to look at things like, you know, customer retention, and customer satisfaction, and really like predictive scores about customer health, and are we doing the things that they want and addressing their needs proactively? Those kinds of things on the one hand, so really like the right structures for, are we onboarding people in a way that they understand what this journey is, you know, that it's not a quick fix that it really is there, there's real work, and that's going to take time, those kinds of things. And then just the way we work with each other, the agendas, you know, every person I meet with, we have a color coded agenda, you know, with action items are highlighted with, you know, with due dates, etc. But then there has to be a place to keep track of all those dates. Otherwise, you have to scroll through too many places. So like with the school division, we have a pretty tight Gantt chart, you know, which are these long, measurable, you know, a lot a lot of rows on for every kind of key item key x, I'm in that initials of who's assigned it. In the core division, we use these quarterly goals, trackers, and we color code, how far along we are on each thing, each each major goal for the quarter for each department. I think it's also there's just the way that we communicate with each other, there's a lot of checking, preventing, assumption making. So you know, being sure that "Did that make sense?" Or, um, so there are a lot of pings directly from a document on clarifying questions. We use certain protocols where, you know, people present something, and then there are clarifying questions, probing questions. And then reflection from the person who did the presentation. So kind of these these tuning protocols are, there are shared mero boards where we brainstorm, and many people are working together. And then we're kind of quantifying what we have there for, like, that's how we did the core values as an example, to see which core values were consistently represented. And which ones were kind of anomalies that weren't really core? So there are I mean, there are so many tools, you know, out there, the ones I've mentioned, and, obviously, infinity, more of them. But it's, um, it's really a commitment to always figuring out how can we communicate effectively with each other. And honestly, with ourselves, like internally, like, you know, because you have all these great ambitions, and you can say, you're gonna do all these things, we can make a, you know, lengthy to do list and just not get to it. And again, that does come back to really get back to prioritizing what is it that is important enough that that's your focus, that's where you're dedicating time. And then these things are those are nice to do if you if you get to them, but it's not as critical. So yeah, I'd say that executive function skills are 100% infused into almost everything we do.Hannah Choi 34:46And that makes me think about how, how we were talking earlier about how if if everyone had access to this kind of knowledge, and even if you just think about leaders of companies, so leaders of companies See, they they know their business, but they might not know executive function skills, like your business is executive function skills. So you know that and so it's probably easier for you to build that into a company structure. So if people are like kids who, you know, don't like maybe they go to a school where, where executive function skills aren't explicitly taught, or if they, you know, I don't know, there's so many different areas, I just think I always wish that everyone could have access to it. And I know, I'm sure that's been a struggle for you, you know, wanting to provide access to everybody. But then being limited.Michael Delman 35:38While we have definitely gotten a lot of interest on the corporate side, and it's something that we will develop ultimately in a in a meaningful way. We really only do that on an, you know, on demand basis, we don't solicit it, but there is a sequence to things and the thing that is really my passion and focus right now, is our school division. That is my Yeah, I mean, it's just I know, our whole staff is behind this. Many of us come from a school background, we know that teachers are they've overwhelming jobs, anyone who was not taught really doesn't have a clue how hard teaching is. And it's, um, it you need support, to understand how you manage scraping papers, and managing 25 disparate personalities in a room at a time. You know, and it's just it's, it's a really challenging job. The other thing about the schools is it democratizes access, because schools can pay for really relatively low, low price, and amount of money that will then elevate the game, have all their teachers help all their students. You know, and again, democratizing access is a huge, huge principle, too. I started the charter school was I wanted to provide a private school quality education for those who couldn't afford it. And even though there's pushback among some in the public school community, the district's like, you know, well, you know, that's, we don't support charter schools, I've done it, and it made a huge difference. And I no regrets. And I taught in the regular District Public Schools before that, and I know, we made a difference that we improved all the schools around us. So you know, the, the chance to do this for us, like if we could have every school in the United States of America, and, you know, well beyond it to learn about executive function skills, understand how they're developed, how to help their kids develop them how to work around the challenges, I mean, you know, that's a legacy that's, that would be life complete.Hannah Choi 37:54I'm just gonna pause here to give you some information on where to find out more about BrainTracks, the school support division of Beyond BookSmart that Michael's talking about here. He believes it is so important to lay down tracks or neural pathways for executive function in the brain when our kids are young and to give teachers additional tools to support this brain development. And BrainTracks is designed to do just that. And to learn more, you can go to the website, braintracks.com or send an email to info at braintracks.com. Okay, back to the conversation. Hannah Choi 38:30Do you think that or how do you think the pandemic has impacted people's experience with their own executive function skills and just maybe awareness of them?Michael Delman 38:41It's well, definitely, the pandemic's been a challenge on all of our executive function skills. And I think it begins with that kind of that emotional challenge, right? You know, we talk a lot about like, if the two parts of the brain there are many parts, but you know, the, the emotional amygdala and that whole limbic system and all that, you know, here, and then the prefrontal cortex is where executive function skills reside right here. When you are worried about whether your job will be there, whether you can get toilet paper, whether you will live or die, because there's no vaccine. Those are, I mean, people were flipping the lid all the time. And so it was a time really where we had to regulate ourselves. First, we had to get that government money to make sure our company was stable. We had to shift everything we did go 100% online, we're about 50 60% online, but this 100% immediately, and then we had to build things that were really relevant for everybody now working from home learning from home, you know, so all those adjustments were necessary for us to stay relevant because people's problems were suddenly much bigger, everyone was struggling with mental health issues of anxiety, depression, you know, things like that, those have remained challenge less. So now that people are vaccinating able to go out and about much more, much more normally. I think we've had a permanent shift, though, in the landscape. In some ways for the better, I think a lot of us have found the benefits of working from home of getting support from home, we see that it's convenient, it can be actually super connected, we can really like talk to each other, it's, it's in some ways, less intrusive. So there's a lot of upside. But I do think that the, the, you know, the EF challenges when you are dealing with so much uncertainty is hard. And, you know, we're we're dealing with a recession, and a bear market and all those kinds of things to people worry, but kind of like, like they say, if you don't desperately need your money, and it's in the stock market, during a bad time, wait, because it'll go back up again. It's, it's also, if you can, during a difficult time, continue to do your habits, you know, meditate in the morning workout at some point during the day, you know, do your journaling, or, you know, get the coaching and the support. You know, all the things that just kind of like, keep you steady. do that because those habits are even more necessary during these times. And then they just, gosh, when as things get easier, you're just well equipped for totally capitalizing on all the opportunities that are there as as things do, you know, become more normalized and easier again.Hannah Choi 42:00And how do you what do you think about the the increase in mental health challenges that we're seeing, and especially in college kids and teens, and their connection with executive function skills there? And what are your feelings about all that?Michael Delman 42:18It's, um, it's devastating. You know, so having a daughter just graduated college, another one who just graduated high school. They are, my two girls are really, they're level headed, and they know how to get started. And they just, you know, they get their work done. That said, it's been anywhere even for them from boring to frustrating to outright depressing at times, just to deal with things. If you have genuine tendencies toward mental health challenges, anxiety and depression, things like that. These these are really, really challenging times, I do think that there are a lot of teachers and even whole institutions that are responsive, and you need that you need the institution itself to, to respond, make adjustments, I think there's a, there's a saying that's there for a reason, when all else fails, lower your standards. That is not a horrible admission of defeat. It means if you interpret a little bit differently than maybe just a negative one, it means be real with what's going on around, you look at the context, you know, maybe maybe you thought you were going to be able to do all these courses, maybe do one less course, during this time. Maybe you know, what it means is, instead of, you know, doing every single page of the reading, you learn how to read more for just getting the main ideas when you're feeling too stressed. You know, maybe it means getting support, either therapeutic support, you know, some sort of professional therapist, or coaching support to learn how to be more efficient and, you know, learn how to be more effective with your executive function skills. But I think the foolish thing would be to act as if everything is exactly the same. You know, "keep calm and carry on" and it only gets you so far. I mean, keep calm and carry on. It's a nice little thing to say. But the question is how, like, how do you keep calm how, you know, how do you carry on which things do you decide to let go of? My older daughter, she was just doing everything at school. I mean, so many things, and they were all pretty cool. And then she said one day, I think I'm gonna drop this executive committee. I'm on On for this thing is just like it's really kind of tangential in my life, it's not that it doesn't bring any joy, it's not something that really adds a lot of value to the world. It's not that relevant to my resume. And, and it's that kind of one more straw, you know? And she's like, you know, do you have any anything to say about it, which I was amazed she, you know, asked for my opinion. And I was like, you know, yeah, I have to say, I'm really proud of you, like, good for you for deciding what matters and what doesn't matter. And, again, good prioritizing. I think that that, you know, again, it's, you don't have to lower your standards on everything, what you have to do is make choices. And I think that's hard. It's hard when you're anxious, because then you're worried what if I'm making the wrong choice? You know, what, if it's a choice that's going to lower your anxiety? It's probably a good choice. What if you know, you know, or you feel, oh, you know, I'm, I'm so stupid I, I should be able to do better. So it's got nothing to do with it? You know, get those cents out of it. Yeah. Don't sit on yourself. Right? So it really is where? Where are you? Do the best you can right now. And when you're ready, you know, do more, but just try to keep up decent health, health, giving habits and, and focus on the things where you're gonna get the best return on investment. I mean, that's what it's all about. And I think what young people don't always understand that we get as adults a lot better. Is that that's what you have to do as an adult. Yeah. And what the problem is, when you're in high school, sometimes you get the message from teachers. Everything I say is important. Doesn't matter if it's on the exam, actually, it does. It does matter if it's on the exam. If it's not, you might not spend as much time reviewing it, studying it. You really do need to get good at really discerning what matters and what doesn't matter. It's really what it's all about.Hannah Choi 47:08That just reminds me so much of a a conversation that I had with a freshman in college client, we talked about diminishing returns, and how you know, as you're working, you got to pay attention. Like, are you enjoying what you're doing? Are you being efficient or effective anymore? And she said it had never really occurred to her to pay attention to that. And and we were thinking it's because when you're in high school, and all through school, and your parents are telling you, your parents are telling you what you have to do. Your teachers are telling you what you have to do. You know that like the teacher who says it's all important, even if it's not on the test. And that's a skill that you have to learn as you become more independent. And I guess it's part of becoming more independent is recognizing, okay, this being on this committee is actually no longer important to me. And yeah, and she probably your daughter probably felt like, yeah, like you said, like, she should do it. So my client felt like she, she should study for 45 minutes, because that's what the timer she set for this, you know, this topic, but then if she noticed, after 25 minutes that she was reading the same paragraph over and over again. And it's like, yeah, why wasted another 20 minutes switch to something else? Right. Right. So that's the hard thing to learn,Michael Delman 48:23I guess, you know, it's funny, I have this list of essential concepts for life. They are they're ones that apply off, you know, kind of first and foremost from a field of origin like economics, or say, you know, political science or psychology or math or whatever, you know, things. Things like diminishing returns, as you're just mentioning, or I mentioned, return on investment, you know, or opportunity cost, you know, yeah, I could do this. But what else? What am I giving up? What's the most valuable thing I could be doing during this time, it's sometimes the most valuable thing is actually resting, letting the brain reset. Sometimes it's exercising, sometimes it's reconnecting with an old friend, you know, they're all in or doing a creative creative outlet. There are many, many different things that are that are worth your time. It's not head down, or head down, you're gonna run into something ultimately, right. So quote me on that one. Head down, you're gonna run into something so good.Hannah Choi 49:31Look up every once in a while!Michael Delman 49:32Look up, pal! So but I think it's really important to look up and to and to figure out is this is this the best thing to be doing now? I'd say actually a sad but worthwhile example. I was told about a town government where they had 90 different projects that they're working on 90 projects. I think the town budget something like $200 million or something. It's it's not a small number. Um, And there was a new project brought forward really good idea. And they said, "Well, we have to get the other 90 done first, before we can add something." That's not the way you want to think. And you know, and I'm not trying to pick on government. I mean, certainly if I were I would not pick on town government at at the beginning. That's a local government. And they're still like, well, we've got this, you know, head down, head down, oh, my gosh, you've just been given something that's going to get way more return on investment, you know, and yet, you're going to give up, you're not even going to look at that, because you've got all these other things that you say you're committed to. So again, those executive function skills, whether it's individual level, family level, schools, businesses, government, I mean, it doesn't matter. Like these are the skills, that they're just going to increase everybody's productivity, it doesn't resolve the one thing EF skills don't do is resolve differences in values, right? Like, they can help clarify differences in values. But, you know, sometimes there truly are competing values, one person believes this and other believes that that's okay, then you can together figure out alright, well, given our differences in values, how do we come up with quick example? Guns, it's actually a really good example. There's probably nobody out there who's like, "it would be great if more people died from gun violence, right?" There's like, nobody thinks anyone really believes that. And, you know, probably most people are like, well, you know, some guns for some purposes, target practice, maybe some people are like, yeah, for hunting, you know, whatever it's like it. And then you got all the stuff in the middle. The problem is, things get really polarized. So you've got people that are pretty much pretty different ends of the of the of the perspective. But if you get away from some of the language of like gun control, and some of the language, it's coming out now a little better, like gun safety. That seems like a language that, okay, how do we make for better gun safety in a way that doesn't restrict the rights of people for the most part that want their guns, and manage them responsibly, and yet doesn't allow them in the hands of people that are going to be a true threat to themselves and others. And, you know, those kinds of things. There's virtually no topic that I can't, that I've never died, but I used to be a public policy major in college, where I found that there are places it's just people go to their little corners, and then they fight. And then they dig in emotionally. And you know, head down and, you know, buttheads not, you know, so maybe one side wins for a while, then another side wins for a while, but it doesn't really, you know, come up with sustainable solutions. So, and, you know, we need those.Hannah Choi 52:58Peg Dawson was talking about how she has divided the executive function skills into two groups, like foundational skills and advanced skills. And, you know, some of the last to learn that we learned are like, flexible thinking, and, and, and metacognition, and, you know, perspective taking, and those are all the skills that are that are required for exactly that, you know, even the change in vernacular, right? Someone was using flexible thinking, to, to get there, you know, and to change how we Yep, key, just a simple one word switch can change people's orientation to it. vMichael Delman 53:34Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And not to be naive. There are truly forces of money and evil, you know, in any space. But, but yeah, but when you're talking about people that are truly have just goodwill and trying to figure out things, then, you know, yeah, I mean, that, that, that open mindedness and, yeah. ability to think flexibly. That's where the solutions that probably will help us all to be a better species. We'll, we'll get there. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 54:05So hopefully we can improve everyone in the world their executive function skills.Michael Delman 54:10Yeah. Well, he and I just, I'll say it starts with working on ourselves. It's, you know, anyone who knows me? I mean, they have stories they have, like, like, how did you lose so many things in one weekend? Michael? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, that was a it was amazing. Kind of set a record there. I mean, there are Hannah Choi 54:34I want to hear that story.Michael Delman 54:36 Skiing ski weekend with my friends. Let's just say that we weren't entirely disciplined the whole time. We were just it was just it was a party weekend with the boys. Where are my gloves? Where's my water bottle? I may see my water bottle you know, you know whatever it was there was always something missing. And you know, four guys with ADHD you know, offers weekend is A lot of fun. Sounds great. But yeah, I mean, those kinds of things, and it's all but it's, it's not a matter, you know, whatever being perfect, it's just, it's just a matter of like always, I don't know, keeping some humility and working on yourself and, and, and then maybe have something to teach other people as well given given that this is what you obsess about constantly, and document and systematize and train people in and yeah, you know, you don't have to pretend that you're the person with all the perfect skills and this all came so easily. In fact, one of the reasons I feel I can be helpful is because of the some of the personal challenges. And, you know, when, when I was in college, and I, I tried to drop out of a class because I could not keep up with the reading, it was just too much. And I was a freshman. And I thought, you know, like, I don't know, probably better to drop one course than to fail everything trying to survive this one Latin American studies course. And in a way, that was good thinking, but my professor insisted on meeting with me. And he said, Michael, why can't you know, why are you dropping? And I said, the books are too long. And he said, How do you read them? I said, I read page one. And then I go to page two, isn't that what you do? He said, No, you got to learn how to use like SQ3R - Survey, Question, Read, Recite, Review, or whatever the name was, at that time, and really how to read more like a detective and search for clues. And what I learned from that was I had been reading, so inefficiently my whole life, and still was it like, you know, Ivy League institution, in spite of that, with that tool, and that approach, and guilt free because it was taught by a professor, there you go, I became a really efficient reader. So, you know, I'm never going to be the person that can read one page to the next next as quickly as other people. It's not, you know, I don't have that scanning. And that, that a built those some of those physical abilities there. But I understand the technique, and it's made me just much more efficient. So, you know, I, I love probably almost more than anything, Hannah is when someone says, oh, my gosh, that would be so much better. That would be so much easier. You know, and I know, you get that as a coach, you just know, it's like, Oh, yeah. And then they try it. And they, you know, and they come up with their own solutions. After a while they don't even, you know, they just need to kind of run something by us. And then it becomes theirs. You know, theyHannah Choi 57:50I feel like this, this theme of we talked about it in the very beginning. And I know it comes up a lot in sessions and is the idea of almost like being given permission. Even though the permission was there all along. We just didn't know, to do things differently. And to do things in a way that works for you. Like, you have to hear that professor tell you that. And it changed everything for you. And you you grew up thinking, Okay, this is how this is how you read you read page one. And then because they always say just read one to 30. And you're like, Okay, I guess I just read pages one to 30. Now, you know, no one ever, like tells you it's okay to do it differently. And they just getting permission to do to make things your own. Yeah. And then once you have that, okay, like my client who realized she doesn't have to follow the timer, she can follow her diminishing returns instead. And how many opportunities opens up when to allow yourself to think that way?Michael Delman 58:47Because, once you've once you've stopped writing between the lines enough times, and you've, you've seen that the approach, the one and only approach is not the one and only approach and that there are many others that other people have shown you trusted resources have shown you and then you start to come up with your own, you know, boom, you know, sky's the limit, then you start to see Oh, wow. Uh, you know, it's it. Remember I said earlier about who you are, is something that doesn't have to be so perfectly defined, it can evolve, you know, this is kind of that that micro example of it, how you do it doesn't have to be Oh, it's this is how you do it. Well, that you know, it like they say, You gotta you gotta learn the rules before you can break the rules, you kind of need you need an identity before you can kind of like break free of the need to constantly have an identity.Hannah Choi 59:43But yeah, when you something to work from, a place to work from.Michael Delman 59:48But as you are, you know, as you already have developed certain certain basic fundamental skills, a certain fundamental sense of who you are. Then you have some free them to kind of move from there to bigger and in a freer way of approaching, you know, the way you do things and indeed even who you are. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 1:00:14So what are you? I mean, other than the new division, BrainTracks love it, what are you excited about?Michael Delman 1:00:22Um I think I think just on a personal level, I'm excited to be done with being sick and get back out and play ultimate frisbee again, which is my passion. I'm excited to see the amazing things that my kids are doing as one goes off to college, one graduates from college. And we're empty nesters and, you know, more possibilities there. That'll be interesting. I think on the professional level, it's the school division is truly, truly like, should be enough to keep me fully engaged for a long time. But there's so much talent in that division that they don't need me all the time. The core division is really full swing, really, you know, kind of self running. No, you know, just great leadership on it in the you know, those places. I actually, in talking to you today, I saw something that I hadn't seen before, it never so clearly, which is more the, the not for profit, the governmental side, the helping bring people together in a more civic oriented way. It's always been a passion, it really is deeply connected to what I majored in, in college. And it's work that I do on the side with my kind of, I'm passionate about environmental issues, addressing climate change, because, you know, it's important that we have a planet that's sustainable if we're gonna do anything else. So. So I think, I think there's another another place for me another place for me to be able to build with executive function skills for not for profits, that are making the biggest difference in the world. So that that feels like something that maybe you helped me. You know, I've thought about it before. But as we've talked, I've realized, wow, I'm talking about it a lot. And I really, it really keeps resonating. So the schools were a big step on the way there. But there are so many good organizations that could use that, that kind of help in their processes. Yeah. So thank you.Hannah Choi 1:02:56And, yeah, you're welcome. And I would love for you to share a little bit about the work that you are doing for climate change. And I know you have you started an organization. Yeah. Website. Well,Michael Delman 1:03:07yeah, so it's called an hour a week. I think it's an hour a week.org. I'm gonna make sure to get that right. Because heck, wants to check it out. Yeah, it's an houraweek.org. And the, the essence, you know, could the essential idea behind it is I wanted to lower the price point of activism, lower the price point of making a difference. There are so many people that are like, Oh, my God, you know, the world is on fire, there's terrible problems. True, you know, you feel worse about it, though, if you think about it, and you talk about it, and you worry about any complaint about it, you don't do anything about it. But if you're putting in as little as one hour a week, or even possibly less, you know, it least then you can say, hey, it's true, it's a big old shit show out there in the world is really, you know, there are a lot of problems, but I'm doing a little a, you don't carry around that guilt that you just you don't need to be, you actually start to connect to other people. We have a a once a month meeting, it's literally one hour a month, not a week, one hour a month of actually meeting in a group. And so that's amazing. And, and so you're connecting to people and it gives you a sense of hope and inspiration that, okay, there's a lot of us and it's multiply. And then third, there are very specific simple actions to do between, you know, meetings. So each week, there's a couple of actions maybe it takes you five minutes or 10 minutes. If you want to put in a full hour go for it. You know, you want to put in more that's fine too. But that I just felt like my experience with the some of the environmental groups I've been involved in, are is has been, well you got to be really committed, and you got to know everything. As I know, most people don't know that much, and they're intimidating, it's intimidating, and you don't have a ton of time and you're trying to raise a couple of kids or, or whatever it is, and you got a full time job or two jobs and, and you don't want to make it elitist, or just for people that have retired. You want people that they just care. And they see, oh, there's connections between climate and social justice, and you know, and poverty and, and people who are dispossessed, and you know, and the air that we're breathing, that's, you know, all the stuff. I want it to be a place where you don't have to be an expert, or have a huge amount of time. So, so that's what I'm, that's what I'm doing. It's, yeah, it feels feels really good to put some time into that. And, you know, use some of the executive function skills there to organize and have people name their commitments, things like that. So cool. Yeah, thanks for asking on that one.Hannah Choi 1:06:03Yeah. So if there's one thing that you could choose, for people to take away from the work that you've done from your life, from your experiences, what would you share? If it's possible, to narrow it down to one,Michael Delman 1:06:21Try not to die. Like, you'll really, the longer you get to live more, more, more fun and more of a difference you can make. Other than stay alive. You know, I'd say, I'd say it see your life is a journey. It's, you know, it's old, it's old wisdom, but there's a reason it's that wisdoms there. The Station by Hastings, this story about being, you know, you're on a train, and you can't wait to get to the station where there's going to be some big party and, and you're like, cursing the trip, because it's taking so long, and you know, what, that the station at the end, that's the end, like the station is actually the end. So don't be in a rush, like, you know, enjoy the scenery, and, you know, connect to the people on the train, you know, and stop and enjoy. And I realized that that's not really so particular to executive function skills. But I think it's, it's really fundamentally the orientation that will allow us to enjoy our lives and make the most difference in the world, which are kind of my two fundamentals is, you know, pay attention to this being a process. You know, and, and, and make revisions along the way. You know, I had a student who, and I wrote about this in my book for parents, the your kids going to be okay book, where he had a very small amount of homework to do over the weekend, it was literally half an hour. And he didn't do it, and, and ended up getting a zero. His parents were disappointed, like, we went through what were all the costs, you know, and, and he listed them out, you know, all the cons to doing it the way he did it, or didn't do it. And, and I said, Well, let me ask you to at least have a lovely weekend, you know, or did you think about he said, Oh, I thought about I said, like, once? Or twice a little bit? He's like, No, probably, like, 30 times. Yeah. And I said, Oh, so you had a choice to either just do a half an hour and be done with it? Or think about it 30 times, let it ruin your weekend. Kind of like, like, you know, yeah, like in a kind of a low level way, kind of get your weekend, all weekend. And that's what you want with it. He's like, Yeah, probably not the best choice. I think, you know, sometimes you got to bite the bullet a little bit, eat the frog, whatever. But I think if you understand, like, there's this, there's this journey, and some of it's not what I want, and I can't control that. Just take that, do that little bit. And, and then enjoy the parts that you can, you know, I think that's just, it's just a better way to be, you're just gonna enjoy your life a lot more. You know, don't, don't hang on and try to make it just so and hope that you never die. You know, just enjoy the enjoy the journey. That's what you got, you know, and, you know, except Except some of the challenges that we have along the way. So that's, that's what I got for you, Hannah.Hannah Choi 1:09:49I love it. So where can our listeners find more about you and more about what you have maybe written? You want to share a little bit about what you've written?Michael Delman 1:09:58Oh, gosh, well, Let's see, I mean, the first thing would be the book, Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay. That's, you know, building executive function skills and the age of attention. And I do think that that's a really good one, particularly for parents, sometimes for teachers, even adults could get something out of that just for themselves, because there are a lot of tools in their, their various blogs and podcasts and things right on our website beyond booksmart.com where they click on those interviews, things like that. If you know they want more, if they haven't had enough yet. There are blog posts that I've written that are that are there, you know, that I think that those are the places to begin, you know, if they're interested in working more kind of through a corporate level or you know, that they can reach out through the company and we'll we'll find a way to get in touch. All right,Hannah Choi 1:10:54and I just I want to I do want to plug your book a little bit because I love how you you wrote it in such a way that's so accessible and so easy to read. And I think so many quote unquote self help books out there are can tend to feel very heavy and, and maybe there's like a lot of jargon or you know, this topics that feel beyond our scope of knowledge, and I felt like you really made it very presentable and1:11:19meant to be conversational, but yes, yeah,Hannah Choi 1:11:21yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you so much, Michael.Michael Delman 1:11:25What a pleasure!Hannah Choi 1:11:26Thank you for joining me. Hannah Choi 1:11:29And that's our show for today. I want to thank Michael Delman for joining me and I hope you enjoyed his stories and wisdom and were able to find a nugget of gold in there for yourself. As Michael says, He wishes for people to be able to see their life as a journey. So thank you for taking time out of your day to listen and for including me and focus forward on your own journey. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus. Where are we with your colleagues, your family and your friends. We love it when our listeners help spread the word about the importance of executive function skills for finding satisfaction and happiness in life. You can subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. You can sign up for our newsletter at www dot beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

Edward Glaeser is the chair of the Harvard department of economics, and the author of the best books and papers about cities (including Survival of the City and Triumph of the City).He explains why:* Cities are resilient to terrorism, remote work, & pandemics,* Silicon Valley may collapse but the Sunbelt will prosper, * Opioids show UBI is not a solution to AI* & much more!Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here.Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.If you enjoy this episode, I would be super grateful if you shared it. Post it on Twitter, send it to your friends & group chats, and throw it up wherever else people might find it. Can't exaggerate how much it helps a small podcast like mine.A huge thanks to Graham Bessellieu for editing this podcast and Mia Aiyana for producing its transcript.Timestamps(0:00:00) - Mars, Terrorism, & Capitals (0:06:32) - Decline, Population Collapse, & Young Men (0:14:44) - Urban Education (0:18:35) - Georgism, Robert Moses, & Too Much Democracy? (0:25:29) - Opioids, Automation, & UBI (0:29:57) - Remote Work, Taxation, & Metaverse (0:42:29) - Past & Future of Silicon Valley (0:48:56) - Housing Reform (0:52:32) - Europe's Stagnation, Mumbai's Safety, & Climate ChangeTranscriptMars, Terrorism, & CapitalsDwarkesh Patel 0:00:00Okay, today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Professor Edward Glaeser, who is the chair of the Harvard Department of Economics, and author of some of the best books and papers about cities. Professor Glazer, thanks for coming on The Lunar Society.Edward Glaeser 0:00:25Oh, thank you so much for having me on! Especially given that The Lunar Society pays homage to one of my favorite moments in urban innovation in Birmingham during the 18th century.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:26Oh wow, I didn't even catch that theme, but that's a great title. My first question is, What advice would you give to Elon Musk about building the first cities on Mars?Edward Glaeser 0:00:35[laughs] That's a great question. I think that demand for urbanism in Mars is going to be relatively limited. Cities are always shaped by the transportation costs that are dominant in the era in which they're created. That both determines the micro-shape of the city and determines its macro future. So cities on Mars are, of course, going to be limited by the likely prohibitive cost of traveling back and forth to the mother planet. But we also have to understand what cars people are going to be using on Mars. I assume these are all going to be Teslas, and everyone is going to be driving around in some appropriate Tesla on Mars. So it's going to be a very car-oriented living experience. I think the best strategy would be to create a fairly flexible plan, much like the 1811 grid plan in New York, that allows entrepreneurs to change land use over time and put a few bets on what's necessary for infrastructure and then just let the city evolve organically. Usually, the best way is to put more trust in individual initiative than central planning–– at least in terms of micromanaging what goes where. Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:58Gotcha. Now, since 9/11, many terrorist groups have obviously intended to cause harm to cities. But by and large, at least in Western countries, they haven't managed to kill off thousands of people like they were able to do during 9/11. What explains this? Do you think cities are just more resilient to these kinds of attacks than we would have otherwise thought? Or are the terrorists just not being creative enough?Edward Glaeser 0:02:20I don't know. There's also the question of what the objectives are. Even for the 9/11 terrorists, their end game was not to kill urbanites in America. It was to effect change in Saudi Arabia or in the Middle East more generally. We've also protected our cities better. If you think about it, two things go on simultaneously when you collect economic activity in one place in terms of defense: one of which is they become targets–– and of course, that's what we saw on 9/11; it's hard to think of a symbol that's clearer than those twin towers. But at the same time, they're also a defensible space. The origin of the urban agglomeration and use for cities and towns was the fact that they could be walled settlements. Those walls that brought together people collectively for defense are the ultimate reason why these towns came about. The walls provided protection.I think the same thing has been playing out with cities over the past 20 years. Just as New York was a target, it was also a place where post-2001, the city ramped up its anti-terrorism efforts. They put together a massive group as London had previously done. The cameras that implemented congestion pricing in London were the same cameras that used against the Irish terrorists. So both effects went on. I think we've been fortunate and that we've shown the strength of cities in terms of protecting themselves.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:52If you look throughout ancient world history, there are so many examples of empires that are basically synonymous with their capital cities (ex. Rome or Athens, or Sparta). But today, you would never think of America as the ‘Washingtonian Empire.' What is the explanation for why the capital city has become much less salient in terms of the overall nation? Is there a Coasian answer here?Edward Glaeser 0:04:20There are specific things that went on with English offshoot colonies where in many cases, because they recognized the tendency of the capital city to attract lots of excess goodies that had been taken from elsewhere in the country, they located the capital city in a remote place. It's actually part of the story of the Hamilton musical in The Room Where it Happens. Part of the deal was about moving the capital of the US to a relatively remote Virginia location rather than having it be in Philadelphia, New York. That was partially to reflect the fact that the South needed to be protected against all of the extra assets going to New York and Philadelphia.So, whether or not this is Canberra or Ottawa, you see all of these English offshoot places without their capitals in the big metropoles. Whereas traditionally, what's happened in these places that have been around for centuries, is that even if the capital didn't start off as the largest city, it became the largest city because centuries of French leaders thought their business was to take wealth from elsewhere in France and make Paris great. I think the French Empire was as synonymous with Paris as most of those ancient empires were with their capital city. I guess the question I could throw back to you is, what are places where this is not true? Moscow, St. Peter's, and Beijing are examples. Do we think that Beijing is less synonymous with China than the Roman Empire is with Rome? Maybe a little–– possibly just because China is so big and Beijing is a relatively small share of the overall population of China. But it's more so certainly than Washington, D.C. is with the U.S. Decline, Population Collapse, & Young MenDwarkesh Patel 0:06:32That's a really interesting answer. Once a city goes through a period of decline (maybe an important industry moved out, or maybe it's had a sequence of bad governance), are you inclined to bet that there will be some sort of renewal, or do you think that things will continue to get worse? In other words, are you a momentum trader, or are you a reversion to the mean trader when it comes to cities?Edward Glaeser 0:06:54I can tell you different answers for different outcomes. For housing prices, I can tell you exactly what we know statistically about this, which is at higher frequencies, let's say one year, housing prices show wickedly large levels of momentum. For five years or more, they show very significant levels of mean reversion. It's a short-term cycle in housing prices followed by decline. Population just shows enormous persistence on the downside. So what happens is you typically will have an economic shock. Detroit used to be the most productive place on the planet in 1950, but a bunch of shocks occurred in transportation technology which made it no longer such a great place to make cars for the world. It takes a century for the city to respond in terms of its population because the housing is sticky. The housing remains there. So between the 50s and 60s, the population declines a little bit, and prices drop. They drop sufficiently far that you're not going to build a lot of new housing, but people are going to still stay in the houses. They're not going to become vacant. So, the people are still there because the houses are still there. During the 60s to 70s, the population drops a  little bit further and prices kind of stay constant, but still it's not enough to build new housing. So the declines are incredibly persistent, and growth is less so. So on the boom side, you have a boom over a 10-year period that's likely to mean revert and it's not nearly as persistent because it doesn't have this sticky housing element to it. In terms of GDP per capita, it's much more of a random walk there in terms of the straight income stuff. It's the population that's really persistent, which is, in fact, the reality of a persistent economy.Dwarkesh Patel 0:08:44Interesting. Why don't Americans move as much as they used to a century ago? So you have a paper from 2018 titled Jobs in the Heartland, where you talk about how there's increasing divergence between the unemployment rates between different parts of America. Why don't Americans just move to places where there are better economic circumstances? Edward Glaeser 0:09:04I want to highlight one point here, which is that you said “unemployment rate”, and I want to replace that with non-employment rate. That's partially what we're seeing now. It looks like America's labor force couldn't be better in terms of the low levels of unemployment, but what's happened over the last 50 years is there has been a very large rise in the share of prime-age men who are not in the labor force. So they've stopped looking for work, and those guys are miserable. It's not that those guys are somehow rather productive and happy,–– this is a very bad outcome for prime-age men. I'm separating men from women, not to say that the female labor markets aren't just as important, just as fascinating, just as critical. But labor force participation means something different for many women than it does for men. There are many women who are not in the labor force who are doing things that are enormously productive socially, like caring for their children and caring for their families.I wish it were symmetric across the genders. It just isn't true. I mean, there just are very few men not in the labor force who are doing anything much other than watching television. It's just a very different thing. So yes, there are big differences in the non-employment rate. There are some parts of America where, for much of the past decade, one in four prime-age men have been jobless. It's an enormous gap. The question is, why don't they get out?I think the answer is really twofold: one of which is the nature of how housing markets have frozen up. Historically, the differences in housing costs in the US weren't that huge across places. Most parts of America had some kind of affordable housing, and it was relatively easy to put up. At the dawn of the 20th century, these were kit helms sold by Sears and Roebuck that sprung up by the thousand. You bought the kit from Sears and Roebuck, and you just built it yourself. After World War II, it was mass-produced homes in places like Levittown.For most of the last 50 years, in places like coastal California or the East Coast, building has just become far more difficult. With the decline of mass-produced housing, it's become far more expensive, and it becomes harder and harder for relatively low-income people to find opportunities in places that have high levels of income, and high levels of opportunity. That's partially why there's not just a general decline in mobility, there's a decline in directed mobility for the poor. Historically, poor people moved from poor areas to rich areas. That's pretty much stopped. In part, that's because rich areas just have very, very expensive housing. The other thing is the rising importance of the informal safety net.So if you think about most particularly prime-aged men, they're not receiving significant handouts from the government except if they're on disability. But they will typically have some form of income, some form of housing that's being provided for them by someone other than themselves. A third of them are living in their parent's homes. That informal safety net is usually very place dependent. Let's say you're living in Eastern Kentucky; it's not like your parents were going to buy you a condo in San Francisco. You can still have your own bedroom, but you can't go anywhere else and still get that level of support. And so that's, I think, another reason why we're increasingly stuck in place.The third you mentioned, is that a third of the non-employed population of young men or is that a third of all young men? Non-employed is a third of non-employed prime aged men. So that's 25 to 54. There are a lot of 45 year olds who are living on their parents' couches or in their old bedroom. It's a fairly remarkable thing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:49Now, we'll get to housing in just a second, but first, I want to ask you: If the fertility trends in East Asia and many other places continue, what will the impact on cities be if the average age gets much older and the possible eventuality of depopulation?Edward Glaeser 0:12:53That's a really interesting question.The basic age fact on cities is that within the bracket of the sort of high-income or middle-income, for prime-aged parents, cities tend to be relatively bad for them. Once you're in the sort of high end of the upper middle class, the distrust of our public school systems, merited or not, means that that group tends to leave. You have plenty of parents with kids who are lower income, and then you have groups who are part of a demographic barbell that like cities. So this is partially about people who don't feel like they need the extra space and partially because if they're young, they're looking to find prospective mates of various forms.Cities are good for that. Urban proximity works well in the dating market. And they've got time on their hands to enjoy the tremendous amenities and consumption advantages that cities have. For older people, it's less about finding a mate typically, but the urban consumption amenity still has value. The ability to go to museums, the ability to go to concerts, and those sorts of activities continue to draw people in.Going forward, I would have continued to expect the barbell dimension to persist until we actually get around to solving our urban schools and declining population levels. If anything, I would have thought that COVID skews you a bit younger because older people are more anxious and remember that cities can also bring pandemics. They remember that it can be a nice thing to have a suburban home if you have to shelter in place. So that might lead some people who would have otherwise relocated to a dense urban core to move out, to stay out.Urban EducationDwarkesh Patel 0:14:44You just mentioned urban schools, and I'm curious because you've written about how urban schools are one of the reasons people who have children might not want to stay in cities. I'm curious why it's the case that American cities have some of the best colleges in the world, but for some reason, their K-to-12 is significantly worse, or it can be worse than the K-to-12 in other parts of the country. Why is it that the colleges are much better in cities, but K to 12 is worse? Edward Glaeser 0:15:19So it's interesting. It's not as if, I don't think there's ever been an Englishman who felt like they had to leave London to get better schools for the kids, or a Frenchman who thought they needed to leave Paris. It's not like there's something that's intrinsic to cities, but I've always thought it's a reflection of the fact that instead of allowing all of the competition and entrepreneurship that thrives in cities and that makes cities great, in the case of K to 12 public education, that's vanished.And your example of colleges is exactly right. I'm in this industry; I'm a participant in this industry and let me tell you, this industry is pretty competitive. Whether or not we're competing for the best students, at our level we go through an annual exercise of trying to make sure we get Ph.D. students to come to our program instead of our competitors, whether it's by hiring faculty members or attracting undergraduates, we occupy a highly competitive industry where we are constantly aware of what we need to do to make ourselves better. It doesn't mean that we're great along every dimension, but at least we're trying. K through 12 education has a local monopoly.So it's like you take the great urban food, leisure and hospitality, and food industries, and instead of having in New York City by a hyper-competitive world where you constantly have entry, you say, “You know what? We're going to have one publicly managed canteen and it's going to provide all the food in New York City and we're not going to allow any competitors or the competitors are going to have to pay a totally different thing.” That canteen is probably going to serve pretty crappy food. That's in some sense what happens when you have a large-scale public monopoly that replaces private competition.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:50But isn't that also true of rural schools? Why are urban schools often worse? Edward Glaeser 0:17:46There's much more competition in suburban schools. So in terms of the suburban schools, typically there are lots of suburbs, and people are competing amongst them. The other thing that's actually important is (I don't want to over exaggerate this, but I think it is something that we need to think a little bit about) the role of public sector unions and particularly teachers unions in these cases. In the case of a suburban school district, the teachers union is no more empowered on the management side than they would be in the private sector.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:30So in a normal private sector, you've got a large company, you've got a union, and they're arguing with each other. It's a level playing field. It's all kind of reasonable. I'm not saying management has done awful things, and that unions have done foolish things. I'm not saying that either are perfect, but it's kind of well-matched. It's matched that way in the suburbs as well. You've got highly empowered parents who are highly focused on their kids and they're not dominated.It's not like the teachers union dominates elections in Westchester County. Whereas if you go into a big city school district, you have two things going on. One of which is the teachers tend to be highly involved politically and quite capable of influencing management essentially, because they are an electoral force to be reckoned with, not just by the direct votes, but also with their campaign spending. On top of this, you're talking about a larger group of disparate parents, many of whom have lots of challenges to face and it becomes much harder for them to organize effectively on the other side. So for those reasons, big urban schools can do great things and many individual teachers can be fantastic, but it's an ongoing challenge. Georgism, Robert Moses, & Too Much Democracy?Dwarkesh Patel 0:18:35What is your opinion on Georgism? Do cities need a land value tax? Would it be better if all the other taxes are replaced by one?Edward Glaeser 0:18:41Okay. So Henry George, I don't know any economist who doesn't think that a land value tax is an attractive idea. The basic idea is we're going to tax land rather than taxing real estate values. And you would probably implement this in practice by evaluating the real estate and then subtracting the cost of construction, (at least for anything that was built up, meaning you'd form some value of the structures and you just subtract it).The attractive thing from most of our perspectives is it doesn't create the same disincentive to build that a real estate tax does. Real estate tax says, “Oh, you know what? I might want to keep this thing as a parking lot for a couple of years so I don't have to pay taxes on it.”If it were a land value tax, you're going to pay the same tax, whether or not it's a parking lot or whether or not you're going to put a high rise on it, so you might as well put the high rise on it and we could use the space. So I think by and large, that's a perfectly sensible idea. I'd like to see more places using land value taxes or using land value taxes in exchange for property taxes.Where George got it wrong is the idea that a land value tax is going to solve all the problems of society or all the problems of cities. That is ludicrously not true.One could make an argument that in those places that just have a property tax, you could replace it with a land value tax with little loss, but at the national level, it's not a particularly progressive tax in lots of ways. It would be hard to figure out how to fund all the things you want to fund, especially since there are lots of things that we do that are not very land intensive. I think George was imagining a world in which pretty much all value-creating enterprises had a lot of land engaged. So it's a good idea, yes. A panacea, no. Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:20No, that's a good point. I mean, Google's offices in San Francisco are probably generating more value than you would surmise just from the quantity of land they have there. Do American cities need more great builders like Robert Moses?Edward Glaeser 0:20:36Robert Caro's The Power Broker is one of the great biographies of the past 100 years, unquestionably. The only biography that I think is clearly better is Robert Caro's biography of Lyndon Baines Johnson, right? I mean, it's Caro is truly amazing. That being said, I would not exactly call it a fair and balanced view of Robert. I mean, it is true that Robert Moses was high handed, and it is true that there are things that he did that were terrible, that you never want to do again. But on the other hand, the man got stuff built. I mean, I think of myself as a child growing up in New York City, and whether or not it was the public pool that I swam in or the parks that I played in, or the roads that I traveled on, they were all delivered by Robert Moses. There's got to be a middle ground, which is, no, we're not going to run roughshod over the neighborhood as Robert Moses did, but we're still going to build stuff. We're still going to deliver new infrastructure and we're not going to do it for 10 times more than every other country in the world does it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:37We're actually going to have sensible procurement policies that bring in things at a reasonable cost, and I think we need to balance a little bit back towards Robert Moses in order to have slightly more empowered builders who actually are able to deliver American cities the infrastructure they need at an affordable cost. Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:57Do we have too much democracy at the local level? You wrote a paper in 2017 titled The Political Economy of Transportation Investments and one of the points you make there is that the local costs are much more salient to people for new construction than the public benefits, and the benefits to newcomers would be. Does that mean we have too much federalism? Should we just have far less power at the city level and not universally? There are lots of good things that local control does.Edward Glaeser 0:22:25I do think we have too much local ability to say no to new housing projects. So that's a particular case that I'm focused on. I think it's exactly right that the near neighbors to a project internalize all of the extra noise and perhaps extra traffic that they're going to have due to this project. They probably overestimate it because they are engaging in a bit of status quo bias and they think the present is great and can't imagine any change.By contrast, none of the people who would benefit from the new project are able to vote. All of the families that would love to move into this neighborhood are being zoned out by the insiders who get a say. I think the goal is to make sure that we have more ability to speak for outsiders. Cities at their best, are places where outsiders can find opportunities. That's part of what's so great about them. It's a tragic thing that we make that so hard. Now I'm not sure exactly that I'm claiming that I want less democracy, but I do want more limitations on how much regulations localities can do. So I think there are certain limitations on local power that I think are fine.I would prefer to call this not a limitation on local democracy, but an increase in the protection of individual rights or the individual rights of landowners to do what they want with their land. Which in effect, is a limit on democracy. But the Bill of Rights is a limit on democracy! The Bill of Rights says that they don't care if 51% of your voters want to take away your right to free assembly. They're not allowed to do that. So in some sense, what I'm just arguing for is more property owners' rights so that they can actually allow more housing in their building.In terms of transportation projects, it's a little bit dicier because here the builder is the government itself. I think the question is you want everyone to have a voice. You don't want every neighborhood to have a veto over every potential housing project or potential transportation project. So you need something that is done more at the state level with representation from the locality, but without the localities getting the ultimate sayDwarkesh Patel 0:24:33I wonder if that paper implies that I should be shorting highly educated areas, at least in terms of real estate. One of the things you mentioned in the paper was that highly educated areas that had much higher opposition were able to foment much more opposition. Edward Glaeser  0:24:49Okay. So here's the real estate strategy, which I have heard that actually there are buyers who do this. You take an area that has historically been very pro-housing. So it's got lots of housing, and it's affordable right now because supply is good. But lots of educated people have moved in. Which means that going forward, they're going to build much less, which means that going forward, they're likely to become much more expensive. So you should, in fact, buy options on that stuff rather than shorting it. You should short if you have a security that is related to the population level in that community. You should short that because the population growth is going to go down, but the prices are likely to go up. Opioids, Automation, & UBIDwarkesh Patel 0:25:29So you wrote a paper last year on the opioid epidemic. One of the points that you made there was that the opioid epidemic could be explained just by the demand side stuff about social isolation and joblessness. I wonder how this analysis makes you think about mass-scale automation in the future. What impact do you think that would have? Assume it's paired with universal basic income or something like that. Do you think it would cause a tremendous increase in opioid abuse?Edward Glaeser 0:26:03I would have phrased it slightly differently–– which is as opposed to the work of two amazing economists, Anne Case and Angus Deaton, who really emphasized the role of deaths of despair; we are much more focused on the supply side. WIth the demand side, meaning just the way that we handled the distribution of large-scale pain relieving medicines, we tell a story where every 30 to 50 years, someone comes up with the same sort of idea, which is we know that human beings love opioids in different forms. We also know they're highly addicted and lead to a terrible cycle. So all of a sudden comes along this innovator says, you know what? I've got a new opioid and it's safe. You don't have to worry about getting addicted to this one. It's magical.It won't work. 100 years ago, that thing was called heroin. 200 years ago, that thing was called morphine. 300 years ago, that thing was called Meldonium. We have these new drugs which have come in, and they've never been safe. But in our case, it was OxyContin and the magic of the time relief was supposed to make it safe, and it wasn't safe.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:30There's a lot of great work that just shows that the patterns of opioid use was related to the places that just had a lot of pain 30 years ago. Those places came with a lot of tendency to prescribe various things for pain. So when opioids came in, when OxyContin came in, those were the places that got addicted most. Now it's also true that there are links between these economic issues. There are links with joblessness, and I basically do believe that things that create joblessness are pretty terrible and are actually much worse than income inequality. I push back against the universal basic income advocates who I think are basically engaging in a materialist fallacy of thinking that a human being's life is shaped by their take home pay or their unearned pay. I think for most people, a job is much more than that. A job is a sense of purpose. A job is a sense of social connection. When you look at human misery and opioid use, you look at the difference between high-income earners, mid-income earners. There are differences, but they're small. You then look at the difference between low-income earners and the jobless, then unhappiness spikes enormously, misery spikes enormously, family breakups spike enormously. So things like universal basic income, which the negative income tax experimented on in the 1970s, are the closest thing we have for its large-scale experiments in this area, which had very large effects on joblessness by just giving people money. They feel quite dangerous to me because they feel like they're going to play into rising joblessness in America, which feels like a path for its misery. I want to just quickly deviate and some of the UBI advocates have brought together UBI in the US and UBI in the developing world. So UBI in the developing world, basically means that you give poor farmers in Sub-Saharan Africa fairly modest amounts of money. This is a totally sensible strategy.These people are not about to live life permanently not working. They're darn poor. It's very efficient relative to other ways of giving.  I am in no sense pushing back on UBI with modest amounts of money in the poorest parts of the world. By all means, it's been deemed to be effective. It's just a very different thing if you're saying I'm going to give $100 to a poor Congolese farmer, or I'm going to give $10,000 to a long-term jobless person in Eastern Kentucky. You're not buying a PS5 for $100 in Congo.Remote Work, Taxation, & MetaverseDwarkesh Patel 0:29:57I want to ask you about remote work. You write in The Survival of the City, that improvements in information technology can lead to more demand for face-to-face contact because FaceTime complements time spent communicating electronically. I'm curious, what distinguishes situations where FaceTime substitutes for in-person contact from situations where it complements FaceTime complements virtual contact?Edward Glaeser 0:30:25So there's not a universal rule on this. I wrote a paper based on this in the 1990s about face-to-face contact complements or substitutes for electronic contacts. It was really based on a lot of anxiety in the 1970s that the information technology of their day, the fax machine, the personal computer was going to make face-to-face contact in the cities that enable that contact obsolete. That discussion has reappeared amazingly in the past two and a half years because of Zoom, and all of those questions still resonate. I think in the short run, typically these things are substitutes.Typically you don't necessarily need to meet some person who's your long-term contact. You can actually just telephone them, or you can connect with them electronically. In the long run, they seem to be much more likely to be complements, in part because these technologies change our world. The story that I tell over the last 40 years is that, yes, there were some face-to-face contacts that were made unnecessary because of electronic interactions. But it's not just that cities did well over the past 40 years–– business travel went through the roof over the past 40 years. You'd think that that would have been made unnecessary by all these electronic interactions, but I think what just happened was that these new technologies and globalization created a more interconnected world, a world in which knowledge was more important, and we become smart by interacting with people face-to-face. This world became more knowledge and information intensive and more complicated, and as things get more complicated, it's easier for ideas to get lost in translation. So we have these wonderful cues for communicating comprehension or confusion that are lost when we're not in the same room with one another. So I think over the longer time, they tend to complements, and over the shorter term, they tend to be substitutes.One of the things I think was helpful in my earlier work on this was looking at the history of information technology innovations. I think probably the first one is the book. It's hard to imagine an innovation that did more to flatten distance. Now you can read stuff that people are saying hundreds of miles away. Yet there's not a shred of evidence that the book led to less urbanization in Europe or to less connection. It helped create a totally different world in which people were passionate about ideas and wanted to talk to each other. They wanted to talk to each other about their books.Flash forward 350 years when we have the telephone. Telephones started being used more in cities, and they were used mostly by people who were going to meet face-to-face. There's no evidence that this has created a decline in the demand for face-to-face contact or a decline in the demand for cities. So I think if we look at Zoom, which unquestionably has allowed a certain amount of long-distance contact, that's very, very useful. In the short run, it certainly poses a threat to urban office markets. My guess is in the long run; it's probably going to be likely to be neutral at worst for face-to-face contact in the cities that enable that contact. Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:37I think that my podcast has been a great example for me about this. I mean, right now we're talking virtually. So maybe, in a way it's substituted, and perhaps I would have interviewed in person without the podcast. However, in another way, I've also met so many people that I've interviewed on the podcast or who have just connected with me because of the podcast in person. The amount of in-person interactions I've had because of a virtual podcast is a great anecdote to what you're talking about, so that makes total sense.Edward Glaeser 0:34:05Absolutely.Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:06Why do even the best software engineers in India or in Europe make so much less when they're working remotely from those locations than remote engineers working in America make? I mean, why don't employers just pay them more until the price discrepancy goes away?Edward Glaeser 0:34:23That's interesting. I don't fully know the answer to that question. I would suspect some of it just has to do with the nature of supply and demand. There are some things that are just very hard to be done remotely. Either because you have very precise informational needs that you have that are easier to communicate to people who are nearby or the person who's nearby has evolved in ways in terms of their mind that they actually know exactly what you want and they have exactly the product that you need. So even though the remote call center worker and the local one may be totally equivalent on raw programming talent, you may still end up in equilibrium and be willing to pay a lot more to the local one just because, right?So there's a slightly differentiated skill the local one has, and look, there's just a lot of competition for the remote ones, so the price is going to be pretty low. There's not that much supply of the one guy who's down the hall and knows exactly what you're looking for. So that guy gets much higher wages, just because he can offer you something that no one else can exactly reproduce.Dwarkesh Patel 0:35:27Let me clarify my question. Even remote engineers in America will make more than remote engineers in Europe or in India. If somebody is working remotely but he just happens to live in the US, is that just because they can communicate in English in the same way? Edward Glaeser 0:35:54I would take the same stance. I would say that they're likely to have just skills that are somewhat idiosyncratic and are valued in the US context.Dwarkesh Patel 0:35:56Are you optimistic about the ability of the metaverse and VR to be able to better puncture whatever makes in-person contact so valuable?Edward Glaeser 0:36:19No, I do not think the metaverse is going to change very much. I do think that there will be a lot of hours spent on various forms of gaming over the next 20 years, but I don't think it ultimately poses much of a threat to real-world interactions. In some sense, we saw this with the teenage world over the last three years. We saw a lot of America spend an awful lot of time, 15, 16-year-olds, 17-year-olds, gaming and connecting entirely virtually during the whole time of the pandemic lockdowns.Every single person that I've seen in that cohort, when you allowed them to interact with real members of their group live, leaped at the opportunity. They leaped at the opportunity of meeting and actually hanging out with real people until three o'clock in the morning and arguing over whatever it is–– whether or not it's football or Kant. I think particularly for the young, living life live just beats the alternative.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:05That sounds like a very Harvard scenario, having to argue over football or Kant, those two topics. [laughs] Are you predicting lower taxes over the coming decades in places like California and New York, specifically because of how remote work sets a sort of maximum bar of how much you can tax highly productive people before they will just leave? Edward Glaeser 0:37:29This is a great question. It's a central issue of our day. Here's how I think about it. In part, it's why I wrote my recent book, Survival of the City. It's because I was worried about this. Two things happened simultaneously. One, as you correctly say, Zoom has made it easier to connect anywhere. I don't think that Zoom is going to cause our tech startup currently in Silicon Valley to say, oh, you know what? We're just going to go home to our Orange County suburban homes and never meet live again. I think that's a low-probability event.But what seems to be a perfectly high probability event is saying, “Oh, we can Zoom with our VCs, we can Zoom with our lawyers. Why don't we just relocate to Austin, Texas, not pay taxes, or relocate to Boulder, Colorado, so we can have beautiful scenery, or relocate to Honolulu so we can surf?” That seems like we've made the ability for smart people to relocate much easier, even if they're going to keep on seeing each other in the office three or four days a week. That collides with this very fervent desire to deal with festering social inequities at the local level. Be this limited upward mobility for poorer people, be this high housing costs, be this the rise of mass incarceration and police brutality towards particularly minority groups. There's this progressive urge which runs up against the fact that the rich guys can run away.If your model, which says, “Oh, the local governments are going to realize the rich guys can run away, so they will seamlessly lower tax rates in order to make sure that they attract those people,” that's running up against the fact that there's a whole lot of energy on the progressive side, which says, “No! Massachusetts just passed a millionaire's tax. For the first time ever, we have the possibility to have a progressive tax, which feels extraordinarily dangerous given this time period.”I think we may need to see a bunch of errors in this area before we start getting things right. We went through a lot of pain in the 1970s as cities first tried to deal with their progressive goals and rich people and companies ran away, and it wasn't until the 1980s that people started realizing this was the path to local bankruptcy and that we had real city limits on what the locality could do.Dwarkesh Patel 0:39:44You cited research on the survival of the city, which said that firms like Microsoft were much less willing to hire new people once they went online because of the pandemic. What do you make of the theory that this is similar to when industrialization first hit and we hadn't figured out exactly how to make the most use of it to be most productive, but over the long run, somebody will do to remote work what Henry Ford did to the factory floor and in fact, just make it much more effective and efficient than in-person contact just because we'll have better ways of interacting with people through remote work, since we'll have better systems?Dwarkesh Patel 0:40:17It's entirely possible. I never like betting against the ingenuity of humanity. On the other hand, you need a lot of technology to override 5 million years of evolution. We have evolved to be an in-person species, not just because we're productive and learn a lot face-to-face, but also because we just like it. A world of hyper-efficient remote work where you basically are puttering around your apartment doing things very quickly and getting things done, doesn't sound particularly joyful to me.Workplaces are not just places of productivity; they're also places of pleasure, particularly at the high end. Remember in 2019 and earlier, Google, and Yahoo, the companies that should have had the biggest capacity to do remote stuff, weren't sending their workers home; they were building these paradises for high-skilled workers, stuffed with foosball tables and free snacks and whatever else they had in these giant campuses in the Google lex. So they were certainly betting on the power of face-to-face and creativity rather than on the ability of remote work to make everything work. I think the most reasonable view, let's say that of Nick Bloom of Stanford, is that for those types of workers, 20% of your week being hybrid, maybe 40%, seems quite possible.That seems like a thing, particularly for workers who have families who really value that degree of flexibility. But fully remote, I guess that's a pretty niche thing. There's some jobs like call center workers where you could imagine it being the norm, but in part, that's just because it's just hard to learn the same amount remotely that you do face-to-face. This came out both in the earlier Bloom study on remote call center workers in China and on more recent work by Natalia Emmanuel and Emma Harrington. Both studies found the same thing, which is in these call centers, are plenty productive when they're remote, but the probability of being promoted drops by 50%.The entrepreneur may make it very efficient to do things in the short run remotely, but they're going to turn off this tendency that we have to be able to learn things from people around us, which is just much harder to duplicate remotely.Past & Future of Silicon ValleyDwarkesh Patel 0:42:29Now, I'm curious why Silicon Valley became the hub of technology. You wrote a paper in 2018 about where pioneer and non-pioneer firms locate. So, I was hoping you had insight on this. Does it stand for it? Is it where Fairchild Semiconductor is located? What is the explanation?Edward Glaeser 0:42:48So, we take it as being earlier. It is Stanford. I traced through this, I think in Triumph. Yeah, it was a company called Federal Telegraph Company that was founded by a guy called Cyril Frank Elwell, who was a radio pioneer, and he was tapped by his teacher to head this radio company. The story was, as I remember it, there'd been this local genius in San Francisco who had attracted all these investors and was going to do this wireless telegraphy company. Then he died in a freak carriage accident.These investors wanted to find someone else, and they went to Stanford's nearby factory and asked, who should we hire? It was this guy Elwell who founded Federal Telegraph. Federal Telegraph then licensed, I think Danish technology which was originally the Poulsen Telegraph Company. They then hired some fairly bright people like Lee DeForest and they did incredibly well in World War I off of federal Navy contracts, off of Navy contracts. They then did things like providing jobs for people like the young Fred Terman, whose father was a Stanford scientist. Now, Fred Terman then plays an outsized role in this story because he goes to MIT, studies engineering there, and then comes back to become Dean of Stanford's engineering program.He really played an outsized role in setting up the Stanford Industrial Park which attracting Fairchild Semiconductor. Then there's this sort of random thing about how the Fairchild Semiconductor attracts these people and then repels them because you have this brilliant guy Shockley, right? He's both brilliant and sort of personally abhorrent and manages to attract brilliant people and then repel all of them. So they all end up dispersing themselves into different companies, and they create this incredibly creative ecosystem that is the heart of Silicon Valley.In its day, it had this combination of really smart people and really entrepreneurial ethos, which just made it very, very healthy. I think the thing that many of us worry about is that Silicon Valley more recently, feels much more like it's a one-industry town, which is dangerous. It feels more like it's a bunch of industrial behemoths rather than a bunch of smart and scrappy startups. That's a recipe that feels much more like Detroit in the 1950s than it does like Silicon Valley in the 1960s.Dwarkesh Patel 0:45:52Speaking of startups, what does your study of cities imply about where tech startups should locate and what kind of organization in person or otherwise they should have? I think there's a lot to like about in person, certainly. Relying too much on remote feels quite dangerous if you're a scrappy startup. But I like a lot the Sunbelt smart cities.I sort of have a two-factor model of economic growth, which is it's about education, and it's about having governments that are pro-business. If you think about sort of the US, there's a lot of heterogeneity in this. If you think about the US versus other countries, it's heterogeneity. So the US has historically been better at being pro-business than, let's say, the Northern European social democracies, but the Northern European social democracies are great on the education front.So places like Sweden and the Netherlands, and Germany are also very successful places because they have enough education to counter the fact that they may not necessarily be as pro-business as the US is. Within the US, you also have this balance, whereas places like Massachusetts, and California are certainly much less pro-business, but they're pretty well-educated. Other parts of the country may be more pro-business, but they're less so. The real secret sauce is finding those places that are both highly educated and pro-business.So those are places like Charlotte and Austin and even Atlanta, places in the Sun Belt that have attracted lots of skilled people. They've done very, very well during COVID. I mean, Austin, by most dimensions, is the superstar of the COVID era in terms of just attracting people. So I think you had to wait for the real estate prices to come down a bit in Austin, but those are the places that I would be looking at. Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:46I don't know if you know, but I live in Austin, actually.Edward Glaeser 0:47:50I did not know that. [laughs]Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:54Well, actually, I'm surprised about what you said about education because you write in the paper, “general knowledge measured as average years of schooling is not a strong determinant of the survival of a pioneer firm, but relatedness of knowledge between past and present activities is.” So I'm surprised that you think education is a strong determinant for pioneer firms.Edward Glaeser 0:48:15No, I'm a big human capital determinist. So I tend to believe that individuals, cities, and nations rise and fall based on their skill levels. Certainly, if you look over the last 40 or 50 years, skills are very predictive of which cities (particularly colder cities) manage to do well versus poorly. If you ask yourself why Detroit and Seattle look different, more than 50% of Seattle's adults have college degrees, and maybe 14, 15% of Detroit's adults do.That's just a huge, huge gap. Certainly, when we think about your punitive startup, you're going to be looking for talent, right? You're going to be looking to hire talent, and having lots of educated people around you is going to be helpful for that.Housing ReformDwarkesh Patel 0:48:56Let's talk about housing. Houston has basically very little to no zoning. Why is it not more of interesting today? Nobody goes to Houston for tourism.Edward Glaeser 0:49:07I have. [laughs] I have, in fact, gone to Houston for tourism. Although part of it, I admit, was to look at the housing and to go to the woodlands and look at that. Interesting has a lot to do with age in this country. So the more that a city has… Boston is good for tourism just because it's been around for a long time, and it hasn't changed all that much. So it has this sort of historical thing. Houston's a new place, not just in the sense that the chronological age is lower but also in the sense that it's just grown so much, and it's dominated by new stuff, right?That new stuff tends to be more homogenous. It tends to have less history on it. I think those are things that make new cities typically less interesting than older cities. As witnessed by the fact that Rome, Jerusalem, London, are great tourist capitals of the world because they've just accreted all this interesting stuff over the millennium. So I think that's part of it. I'm not sure that if we look at more highly zoned new cities, we're so confident that they're all that more interesting.I don't want to be particularly disparaging any one city. So I'm not going to choose that, but there's actually a bunch that's pretty interesting in Houston, and I'm not sure that I would say that it's any less interesting than any comparably aged city in the country.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:35Yeah. I'm visiting Houston later this month. I asked my friend there, should I stay here longer? I mean, is there anything interesting to do here? And then he responds, “Well, it's the fourth biggest city in the country, so no.”Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:47Many people, including many economists, have said that we should drastically increase US population through immigration to a figure like 1 billion. Do you think that our cities could accommodate that? We have the infrastructure, and I mean, let's say we reformed housing over a decade or so. Could we accommodate such a large influx of people? Edward Glaeser 0:51:24A billion people in a decade? I love the vision. Basically, in my heart, I'm an open borders person, right? I mean, it's a moral thing. I don't really like the idea that I get to enjoy the privileges of being an American and think that I'm going to deny that opportunity to anyone else. So I love this vision. A billion people over 10 years is an unimaginably large amount of people over a relatively short period of time. I'd love to give it a shot. I mean, it's certainly not as if there's any long-term reason why you couldn't do it.I mean, goodness knows we've got more than enough space in this country. It would be exciting to do that. But it would require a lot of reform in the housing space and require a fair amount of reform in the infrastructure space as well to be able to do this at some kind of large scale affordability.Dwarkesh Patel 0:52:05What does the evidence show about public libraries? Do they matter?Dwarkesh Patel 0:52:09My friend Eric Kleinberg has written a great book about… I think it's called Palaces for the People about all the different functions that libraries have played. I've never seen anything statistically or systematically about this, but you're not going to get a scholar to speak against books. It's not a possible thing.Europe's Stagnation, Mumbai's Safety, & Climate Change Dwarkesh Patel 0:52:32Why do European cities seem so much more similar to what they look like decades or even centuries ago than American cities, even American cities that are old, obviously not as old as European cities, but they seem to change much more over time. Edward Glaeser 0:52:46Lower population growth, much tougher zoning, much tougher historic preservation. All three of these things are going on. So it's very difficult to build in European cities. There's a lot of attention to caring about history. It's often part of the nationalist narrative. You often have huge amounts of national dollars going to preserve local stuff and relatively lower levels of population growth.An extreme example of this is Warsaw, where central Warsaw is completely destroyed during World War II, and they built it up to look exactly like it looked before the bombing. So this is a national choice, which is unlikely that we would necessarily make here in the US. Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:27Yeah. I was in Mumbai earlier this year, and I visited Dharavi, which is the biggest slum in Asia. And it's a pretty safe place for a slum. Why are slums in different countries? Why do they often have different levels of how safe they are? What is the reason?Edward Glaeser 0:53:45I, too, have been in Dharavi and felt perfectly safe. It's like walking around Belgravia and London in terms of it. I think my model of Dharavi is the same model as Jane Jacobs's model of Greenwich Village in 1960, which is this is just a well-functioning community.People have eyes on the street. If you're a stranger in these areas, they're going to be looking at you, and it's a community that just functions. There are lots of low-income communities throughout the world that have this. It requires a certain amount of permanence. So if the community is too much in flux, it becomes hard to enforce these norms and hard to enforce these sort of community rules. It's really helpful if there aren't either a massive number of guns floating around or an unbelievably lucrative narcotics trade, which is in the area. Those are both things that make things incredibly hard. Furthermore, US drug policy has partially been responsible for creating violence in some of the poor parts of Latin American cities.Dwarkesh Patel 0:54:43Maybe you don't play video games enough to know the answer to this question. But I'm curious, is there any video game, any strategic video game like Civilization or Europa that you feel does a good job representing the economics of cities? Edward Glaeser 0:55:07No, I will say that when I was in graduate school, I spent a few hours playing something called Sim City. I did think that was very fun. But I'm not going to claim that I think that it got it right. That was probably my largest engagement with city-building video games.Dwarkesh Patel 0:55:12What would you say we understand least about how cities work? Edward Glaeser 0:55:18I'm going to say the largest unsolved problem in cities is what the heck we're going to do about climate change and the cities of the developing world. This is the thing I do not feel like I have any answer for in terms of how it is that we're going to stop Manila or Mumbai from being leveled by some water-related climate event that we haven't yet foreseen.We think that we're going to spend tens of billions of dollars to protect New York and Miami, and that's going to happen; but the thing I don't understand and something we really need to need to invest in terms of knowledge creation is what are we going to do with the low-lying cities of the developing world to make them safe. Dwarkesh Patel 0:55:54Okay. Your most recent book is Survival of the City. And before that Triumph of the City, both of which I highly recommend to readers. Professor Glaeser, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This was very interesting.Edward Glaeser 0:56:05I enjoyed this a lot. Thank you so much for having me on. I had a great deal of fun. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dwarkeshpatel.com

The Holy Spirit #3 - By Pastor George Lehman Destitute of the fire of the Holy Spirit of God – nothing else counts. Possessing the fire of the Holy Spirit, nothing else matters. Trying to do the Lord's work in your own strength is the most confusing, exhausting, and tedious of all work, but when you are filled with the Holy Spirit then the ministry of Jesus just flows out of you.   -Corrie Ten Boom This is a clear sign of the presence of the Holy Spirit in a person's life. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (Amp) – And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you through and through [separate you from profane* things, make you pure and wholly consecrated to God]; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved sound and complete [and found] blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah). *profane = worldly, things that disrespect God The human personality:  Spirit, Soul, and Body. I'm sure we would all agree that spirit, soul, and body make up the complete human personality. Genesis 1:26 (Amp) – God said, Let Us [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all of the earth, and over everything that creeps upon the earth. Notice:  In IMAGE and after LIKENESS. Image refers to outward appearance thus something in man's outward appearance mirrors the outward appearance of God. After Likeness refers to the internal structure of the Godhead -   Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Man's spirit, soul and body correspond to the three components of the Trinity. The internal structure of the human personality is traceable to God's creation of man. The human spirit proceeds from God's breath. Genesis 2:7 (Amp) – Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being. Hebrew & Greek word for Spirit & breath are the same. The body was clay infused with divine life to become Adam. Fully Spirit, Soul and Body The soul is perhaps the most difficult component to understand. The part in us that determines… “I will” or “I won't” The soul comprises of Will, Emotions and Intellect and produces 3 corresponding types “I want”  “I feel”  “I think”   These statements rule the life of the natural, sinful man.  It's all about Me, Myself and I. Surrendering to these demands of the soul instead of being guided by God's Spirit – you separate yourself from God. Sin brings death to Adam – not physical but spiritual death. When we repent, God forgives our sins and renews our spirits. The Spirit takes up residence in us! Ephesians 2:1-3 (Amp) – And you [He made alive], when you were dead (slain) by [your] trespasses and sins in which at one time you walked [habitually]. You were following the course and fashion of this world [were under the sway of the tendency of this present age], following the prince of the power of the air. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God].  Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh [our behavior governed by our corrupt and sensual nature], obeying the impulses of the flesh and the thoughts of the mind [our cravings dictated by our senses and our dark imaginings]. We were then by nature children of [God's] wrath and heirs of [His] indignation, like the rest of mankind. From rebellion to salvation Ephesians 2:4-6 (Amp) – But God—so rich is He in His mercy! Because of and in order to satisfy the great and wonderful and intense love with which He loved us,  Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation).  And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One). Salvation won't preserve our physical bodies – but it does make them temples for the Holy Spirit. 2 Corinthians 4:16(NIV) – Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. How we treat our bodies then, is very important, it has an important function. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (Amp) – Do you not know that your body is the temple (the very sanctuary) of the Holy Spirit Who lives within you, Whom you have received [as a Gift] from God? You are not your own, You were bought with a price [purchased with a preciousness and paid for, made His own]. So then, honor God and bring glory to Him in your body. When we receive salvation, our spirits are made alive, our souls are reconciled to God and our bodies are made temples for the Holy Spirit. Functions of Spirit, Soul and Body. Spirit: Our spirit is capable of communicating directly with God and worshipping Him, as confirmed in… 1 Corinthians 6:17 (Amp) – But the person who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with Him. 2 Timothy 1:7(NKJV) - For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.  Neither soul nor body can unite with God.  The spirit alone is capable of uniting with God. John 4:23-24 (Amp) – A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers.  God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality). Soul: The soul's function is to make decisions and, regeneration[vernuwing] enables the soul to make right decisions. Psalm 103:1 (NIV) – Praise the Lord, my soul; all my inmost being, praise his holy name. David's spirit is telling his soul what to do. His spirit senses the need to ‘bless the Lord' but it requires activation by his soul to execute this need. Eg. Like a gear lever on a car.  Turn the key, start the engine, but to make it move you must shift it into drive. It's often difficult to distinguish soul from spirit. The ONLY effective and sharp tool is - THE WORD. Hebrews 4:12 (NIV) – For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. The difference between mature and immature Christians… Hebrews 5:11-14 (Msg) –  I have a lot more to say about this, but it is hard to get it across to you since you've picked up this bad habit of not listening. By this time you ought to be teachers yourselves, yet here I find you need someone to sit down with you and go over the basics on God again, starting from square one-—baby's milk, when you should have been on solid food long ago! Milk is for beginners, inexperienced in God's ways; solid food is for the mature, who have some practice in telling right from wrong.   Body There's a marked difference between “Spiritual” and “Soulish” in relation to the body as described in the New Testament. Paul says… 1 Corinthians 15:44-50a (NIV) –  44It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.  If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.  45So, it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.  46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.   47The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.  48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.  49And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.  50I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, What does it mean to be an “earthly soulish man”? From a Christian's standpoint, earthly individuals focus on our earthly life and nothing more, nothing beyond. Soulish people are egocentric, concerned exclusively with themselves; it's about my comforts, my likes my dislikes, my feelings my convenience.  “I do it my way.” It's about what God can do for me and not what I can do for God. 1 Corinthians 2:14-15 (NIV) –  The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, Spirit-filled believers produce fruit. Luke 3:8a (Amp) – Bear fruits that are deserving and consistent with [your] repentance [that is, conduct worthy of a heart changed, a heart abhorring sin]. They ask, “How can I glorify God?  How can I best serve God?”  Pleasing God is their 1st priority.  They have a confidence and a boldness that they are children of God. Romans 8:14-16 (Amp) – For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.  For [the Spirit which] you have now received [is] not a spirit of slavery to put you once more in bondage to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption [the Spirit producing sonship] in [the bliss of] which we cry, Abba (Father)! Father!  The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God. We can have absolute assurance in this scripture. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NIV) – May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it. Being ready when Jesus comes in Spirit Soul and Body one day is not optional *****

October is ADHD awareness month, and given that half of our clients have ADHD, I knew there was something important we could offer the ADHD community this month with the podcast.From educators to parents, mental health specialists to doctors, too many people in all areas of society may not be fully aware of just how much ADHD can impact an individual's life in ways both good and bad. So in today's episode, I'll be exploring many dimensions of ADHD in hopes of providing the wisdom you need to both overcome the challenges of ADHD, but also harness its hidden superpowers. We'll dive into the unique qualities of the ADHD brain, how both ADHD medication and other non-medication activities may help, and how pairing them with tools and strategies that support executive function can change life with ADHD in incredible ways. Best of all, I'll be sharing clips from conversations I had with three people who have learned to be successful alongside ADHD. Their experiences prove that ADHD can be a blessing instead of a curse - all it takes is the right approach and mindset. A big thank you to Dr. Theresa Cerulli for sharing her expertise on medication's role in ADHD treatment, and Bob Shea for coloring the episode with his warmth, wit, and story. You can see more of their work in the show notes.Speaking of which... here are the show notes!ADHD FundamentalsADHD Success Kit by Beyond BookSmartFact Sheet: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) TopicsWhat is ADHD? | CDC5 things parents and teachers need to know about ADHD - Harvard HealthADHD Fundamentals: What you need to succeed after a diagnosis, Beyond BookSmart Webinar with Thersa Cerulli, MDSchool Success Kit for Kids With ADHD - Child Mind Institute ADHD BrainsIt's All in Your Brain: The Structure of ADHDDefault Mode Network - an overview | ScienceDirect TopicsNorepinephrine: Dopamine's Less Glamorous Wonder Twin | Psychology TodayIt's All in Your Brain: the Structure of ADHDADHD & the Brain2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHD - Youtube VideoThe Default Mode Network, Motivation, and AttentionThe ADHD Brain: Neuroscience Behind Attention DeficitADHD ResearchThe World Federation of ADHD International Consensus Statement: 208 Evidence-based conclusions about the disorderADHD and GenderADHD in girls and boys – gender differences in co-existing symptoms and executive function measuresThe Intersection of ADHD and Gender Diversity - Mental Health Therapy, Psychotherapy, Counseling, Coaching, Psychiatry Blog Post By Holly MilesA Review of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in Women and Girls: Uncovering This Hidden Diagnosis - PMCADHD and Gender Identity: How They're Linked and Tips for ParentsADHD Diagnosis SupportHow to Get an ADHD Diagnosis - Child Mind InstituteSymptoms and Diagnosis of ADHD | CDCADHD Symptom ManagementThe Exercise Prescription for ADHD What Should You Treat First: ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy and ADHD - CHADDCognitive Behavioral Therapy for ADHD: Techniques and OptionsNon-drug treatments for adult ADHD - Harvard HealthShout-outs to our guests!Theresa's PracticeBob Shea's WorkContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:01So what's something positive about having ADHD?Andrew 00:04So many things! Honestly, I feel like personally, my brain has allowed me to experience the world in ways that most other people don't. Because I don't focus on the things that people asked me to focus on. And I focus on the things that I want to focus on and my focus can be drawn to many different things. And so having a brain that's able to fire off that quickly, has been truly a gift.Hannah Choi 00:36Hi, everyone, and welcome to focus forward and executive function podcast, where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi, the person you just heard speaking is Andrew, a client of mine who has ADHD. October is ADHD Awareness Month. And this episode is all about that. I'm going to explore a bunch of different aspects of ADHD. And I hope this episode answers any questions you might have about it. Today we will learn about what happens in ADHD brains that makes them function differently. I'll also share some information about ADHD medication and other non medication activities, and how pairing them with tools and strategies that support executive function can really help give people with ADHD some confidence. These days, more and more people are finding answers in receiving an ADHD diagnosis. They're getting explanations for some of the challenges they have faced in their lives. If you've been wondering if you or your child may have ADHD, I'll give you some tips on where to start if you're interested in pursuing testing. Hannah Choi 01:48Throughout the episode, I'll be sharing clips from conversations that I had with three people who have ADHD. Andrew, who you heard in the beginning of the episode is an executive function coaching client of mine. He lives outside of New York City and he's 35 years old. He was diagnosed with ADHD about two years ago. Ally is a coaching client of my colleague Christine Keller. Ally is attending college in Europe, and she was diagnosed when she was 16. I'll also share some clips from my conversation with Bob Shea, who is a children's author who has ADHD. I interviewed him for episode 10 of focus forward. If you haven't listened to that one yet, check it out. He's hilarious and super honest about his life with ADHD. Hannah Choi 02:35Before I show my nerdy side by exploring how the ADHD brain works, let's look at the symptoms of ADHD. ADHD can be broken down into three types, all of which have slightly different and sometimes overlapping symptoms. Okay, so first, we have predominantly hyperactive people with this type of ADHD might fidget and talk a lot, they may have trouble sitting still for long and waiting their turn. They may be impulsive, interrupt others or grab things from people. Interestingly, they may also have more accidents and injuries than those without this type of ADHD. Next up, is inattentive type ADHD. And this often shows up as mainly challenges with the executive function skill of attention. It may be hard for people with this type of ADHD to finish tasks, and they may miss details. It can be difficult for them to follow instructions or keep up with what's happening in a conversation. And they might be easily distracted and lose things or forget the details of their daily routines. You know that term add it's an older and now outdated term for this inattentive type of ADHD. Lastly, is what's called combined ADHD. People with this type have characteristics from both of the other types. Hannah Choi 04:00Okay, Yay, it's brain time. I think it's really, really important to understand the ADHD brain, because ADHD truly does start in the brain. And for many people, just knowing what's going on in their brain can help them feel better about their challenges. ADHD is not the result of laziness is not the result of how you were raised by your parents, or your socio economic level. And many studies have been done to determine what causes ADHD. And for most people, it's likely a combination of mostly genetics and maybe some environmental causes. But there's really no way to determine exactly what caused it for each person. And only correlations can be made from the results of the studies that have been done. So no exact cause has been or probably ever will be determined. You can find out more about this research in the show notes. Hannah Choi 04:58So, now that we know that ADHD is a brain thing, let's find out exactly what's going on in there. People with ADHD have challenges with executive function skills. executive function skills originate in the prefrontal cortex in our brain. And if you've listened to the procrastination episode, you might remember some of this brain science lesson. So the neurotransmitters norepinephrine and dopamine play a role in causing ADHD symptoms. Dopamine is more well known because it's the brain's pleasure chemical. And norepinephrine is the chemical that gets your brain going, kind of like adrenaline. But for the brain, the transmitters, norepinephrine and dopamine play a role in causing ADHD symptoms. Norepinephrine is the chemical that gets your brain going. It's kind of like adrenaline, but for the brain, it tells our brain to start paying attention. Dopamine is well known because it's the brain's pleasure chemical. As you may remember, from the procrastination episode, when we do something pleasurable, dopamine is released and makes us want to do the thing again. So if we put hard work and effort into something, and we get rewarded, dopamine is produced. And then this dopamine makes us want to put the effort in again, because the reward feels good. For people with ADHD, less dopamine and less norepinephrine make it to the regions of the brain involved with motivation and attention. And that makes it harder to stay motivated and focused. Hannah Choi 06:36Let's dig a little deeper into the ADHD brain. So we have this network of regions in our brain called the default mode network. And this network is active when we're daydreaming, you know, when you're like not focused on anything. It's also active when we think about ourselves or others. And it's active when we plan for the future or remember the past. And then when it's time to focus on something, we inhibit this default mode network, and then turn on the networks that are used for attention and cognitive control. So studies have shown that it may be that people with ADHD have dysregulation in the default mode network, and just have a more difficult time turning it off when it's time to focus. And what do you know, these networks are all located in or involved the frontal lobe or the prefrontal cortex, which as we know, is where our executive function skills originate from. Hannah Choi 07:37Gender also comes into play with ADHD symptoms and diagnosis. Three to one, gender comes into play with ADHD symptoms and diagnosis. ADHD can show up differently in cisgender males and females. Unfortunately, there is a severe lack of research on how ADHD impacts people who do not identify as their birth gender. And there absolutely needs to be more diversity of gender within the research done in the field of ADHD, well in all research, really, and I think especially mental health and related topics. So today, I will do my best to share what has been learned in the research thus far. And I really encourage you to reach out to your state representatives and ask them for more research to be done for the underresearched population.Hannah Choi 08:31Okay, so for convenience, I'm gonna say boys and girls, but please know that I also mean cisgender men and women, more boys are diagnosed with ADHD than girls. This may be because the symptoms that boys usually have, such as hyperactivity and impulsivity are more external, and they more obviously impact their day to day lives and the people around them. Girls usually have more internal behaviors such as difficulty maintaining attention and remembering things, and they often develop strategies to hide these challenges. Sometimes girls also have anxiety and depression. So ADHD behaviors are missed, and then the child is misdiagnosed. Sometimes girls who are misdiagnosed don't find out until much later in life that ADHD was actually the cause of their childhood challenges. societal expectations can also come into play here as well. How many times have you heard or maybe you even said so yourself that those rowdy boys over there are just boys being boys, hyperactive or impulsive behavior in boys is more accepted, and in general, society expects girls to be more controlled, so they develop coping skills to fit into these expectations. Again, here's another reason why many women are not diagnosed until adulthood. In regards to the impact on executive function skills, studies have found that in general, there are not too many differences between boys and girls with ADHD. executive function skills seem to be similarly influenced by it in both. Hannah Choi 10:19So now that we know the brain science behind ADHD, and the common symptoms that may appear in those with ADHD, and how it can affect girls and boys differently, it's time to take a look at some strategies people can use to manage it. First, I'm going to talk about medication. And then we'll dive into some non medication strategies you can use to level the playing field for your ADHD brain. As I've said before, and I will say again, and again, using medication is a personal choice. And whatever choice people make about medication is okay. As an executive function coach, I work with a lot of people who have ADHD, and I always support my clients' decisions about medication, whatever they are without judgment. We recently held a webinar on what to do after a diagnosis of ADHD. And our guest was Theresa Cerrulli and Teresa is a psychiatrist and an expert in ADHD diagnosis. Theresa helped us understand the ins and outs of ADHD medication. Remember how we talked earlier about how the ADHD brain works differently? Theresa explained that since people with ADHD have underactive frontal lobe circuits, their brains require a higher level of stimulation to function properly. And here's where the role of medication comes in to provide that stimulation. And you might be wondering, why would you want to stimulate a person who already has high energy? And Teresa shares how this works:Theresa Cerulli, MD 11:50I get this question all the time. Why in the world, would you talk about stimulant medications for somebody who's already hyperactive and impulsive? That's kind of counterintuitive. And the reason is, because you're not trying to stimulate the whole person, you want to stimulate that frontal part of the brain that Its job is to help us focus, concentrate, built around, filter out background noises, organize, and plan, your trying to turn it on to do its job most efficiently and effectively.Hannah Choi 12:22Now that we know how ADHD medication works, let's listen to what Teresa has to say about the choice to use medication.Theresa Cerulli, MD 12:29So medications, I will say it should be something to at least discuss with your providers medication isn't for everyone, but should at least be considered for everyone is how I would how I would think about it. And mostly because of the data looking in this was these were NIMH funded studies, not pharmaceutical funded studies years ago, looking at the role of behavioral interventions versus motivate medication intervention interventions versus combined in treating ADHD. And the so the surprise was that medication interventions, compared with behavioral interventions alone, medication invent interventions were more significantly impactful. And then we all made the assumption that the combined medication and behavioral treatment would be even more impactful and which was true, but not to the extent that they had anticipated. So it does look like a main a main part of the treatment intervention should be medication should at least be considered this is neural neuro biologically based. And the sometimes it's hard to make headway in your behavioral strategies. Those strategies become hard to learn, and or utilize if you're also not not working from the inside out and helping with the neurobiological aspects in terms of what's happening in the brain.Hannah Choi 13:55Some people may be okay without medication, and others might rely on it. And like I said, before, whatever your choice is, that's your choice. I really encourage you to do what works best for you and your family. And like Teresa said, at least have the conversation with your doctor about medication before making a decision either way to learn a lot more about ADHD, three to one. To learn a lot more about ADHD medication, including non stimulant medications, you can listen to the full webinar in which Theresa explains the different options that are available. And you can find the link to that in the show notes. When I asked Andrew and Ally about what role medication plays in their lives, they both said that it helps them by allowing them to focus and making it easier to take advantage of the non medication strategies that they use. They both also feel that the medication alone is not the answer.Andrew 14:54I was immediately prescribed Adderall and I was like, I don't want Adderall. I was like give me strategies. I won't come Watching I want like something that I can like learn and apply. I don't want to have to just like take a drug because I knew the problems weren't going to go away just because I was taking Adderall. Right? If anything, Adderall is going to make it worse, because I was just I was going to focus, but I was going to be focusing in the wrong ways. And so the combination of the strategies and the medication have been really powerful. And I think for me, the medication, it's just clarity, I go on Tik Tok every once in a while, and like, there's the ADHD memes, where it's like the five songs playing at one time, right? Like, that's what it feels like. And sometimes that's where I need to be, that's a great place for my head to be, right. But sometimes, I don't, sometimes I just, I need to get stuff done. And it's just nice to know that it's there. I would say, I don't take medication every day. But I've changed my perspective on medication. And I think having having the strategies to fall back on, and then having the medication to fall back on that that kind of double layer of protection, if you will. It's been it's been huge.Ally 16:09I mean, I didn't get on medication until later in the high school game, when I think it could have helped me a bit earlier. So I was in my senior year of high school, when I started taking medication. And it really was a game changer for me, in the sense where I think it was one of the first times in my life, I felt like actual focus. I was like, oh my god, this is the hype like this is what people have been talking about, like sitting down for a few hours and getting work done and feeling like I'm like tunnel vision doing my work right now. And it was a really, I think, a really great feeling to feel that you kind of have control of that. And kind of taking that into your own hands again, and not letting like concentration problems, manifest that for you and being like, okay, I can do a workout with this. But I do I mean, I'm a believer that with most problems that can be treated with medication, it has to be supplemented through a holistic approach. I mean, maybe it's just that my mom is from Latin America. So I think there's different ideas that are on medication. I mean, anywhere outside of the US even living here, I've realized medication is very much like a last resort situation. And I used to be very against that when I was trying to get medication, I was like, just give me it like helped me out. But now I really, really see the benefit of having a holistic approach. Because I don't think I would be able to do many of the things that I do today without the help that I get from beyond booksmart, for example, or other executive function skills that I've developed outside of medication. And also I mean, I think this is a good thing to clarify. But I the medication I take I don't take it I think in normal way people do with ADHD I have short release, and I only take it when I need to. So on days I really need to study or like exams. So it only ends up being like one or two times a week at most. Definitely more concentrated towards like the studying weeks and final exam weeks. But yeah, I just think a supplemental approaches like they have to go hand in hand if not I don't think the total thing will ever be resolved.Hannah Choi 18:29Bob Shea, the children's author that I interviewed for episode 10 shared a similar experience. He explained that before he started taking ADHD medication, he would really miss out on experiences with his family, because he was always trying to play catch up with what he had missed at work all week. So we didn't get to hang out with him on the weekends. He shared with me how the medication made a huge difference for him.Bob Shea 18:53The medication allowed me to make use of the systems I had been trying to put in place because it was always planners, it's always calendars, planners. How do I do this? How do I do this. And once I took the medication, I was able to do all the things. And everything fell into place. It's all it's all a bit. It's not just oh, it took a pill and I was fun. It was it was a framework of things. And knowing that you're even now I'm like, You're bad at this. So you have to do this more than other people do.Hannah Choi 19:31The most important takeaway from all three of these people is that they did not use the medication alone. The medication helps them take advantage of and be better about using the non medication strategies they've learned. And there are an infinite number of strategies out there to support the areas that challenge people with ADHD. So in the interest of time, and my sanity, I'm just going to explore a few of these strategies today. And not all of them that I'm going to talk about are going to be helpful to everyone But if you have ADHD actually, if you're just a person, you might find these helpful. But if you have ADHD, they'll likely be extra helpful. And please have a listen to our previous episodes, especially the one on procrastination and the one on habit tracking for some other ideas. And then in my next episode, I'm going to be coming at you with ideas for improving your time management skills.Hannah Choi 20:25But back to this episode. Before we dive into specific tools and strategies, we need to talk about two really important things that people with ADHD should consider adding to their lives - therapy and exercise. Therapy is definitely something to look into because it can help with anxiety and depression. And it can also reduce ADHD symptoms. Cognitive behavior therapy, which is also called CBT, has especially been shown in studies to be very helpful in reducing symptoms. You can learn more about the benefits of therapy in our show notes. And I encourage you to ask your doctor for support in identifying a therapist who has some experience supporting people with ADHD. Hannah Choi 21:09All right now about that exercise. Ally, Bob and Andrew all shared that exercise, it makes a huge difference for them in managing their ADHD symptoms. It makes sense to me, exercise increases neurotransmitters in the brain, including dopamine and norepinephrine. So in addition to all the other benefits that exercise provides, your brain also gets a nice boost of those chemicals involved with motivation and attention. Studies have shown that exercise improved executive function in kids with ADHD and more research needs to be done on adults with ADHD. But the consensus seems to be that exercise is pretty much the number one thing you can do for yourself. It improves your memory and provides opportunities to add structure to your day, and just gives you something to focus on. And it even gives you a chance to practice some mindfulness. Ally shared with me how running has benefitted her life greatly.Ally 22:08I really like running both as like a place to put in my energy but also a place to kind of practice mindfulness, especially as someone with ADHD like it's a great way to like process emotions and feelings and everything you're taking in throughout the day. I mean, I think it also applies for someone without ADHD as well. I mean, I'm very pro-running.Hannah Choi 22:27Okay, so we now know that medicine, should you choose to use it, therapy and exercise are all super helpful. In addition to these, I think building systems to support planning and time management for people with ADHD is also critical for success and satisfaction in their lives. My colleagues and I see evidence of this in our clients all the time. My Podcast Producer and editor Sean Potts, who joined me in Episode Four to contribute his experience with ADHD as a child shared with me that he relies on Google Calendar and an STM. And the STM is a tool I talked about in our episode on procrastination. And it helps you break down the individual steps or tasks that are involved in a project, or things that you need to do in your day. And then once you've created a list of those steps, or tasks, you figure out how long each one will probably take. And then you map it out on your calendar or your planner, Allie shared a similar love for planning things ahead of time and using her Google Calendar.Ally 23:33Just those tools and those kind of like systems and plays have helped me tremendously just add structure and add clarity to things that can just seem like a lot. Just for example, like organizing, study work just writing down. I mean, before every semester, I will write down like all the assignments I will need to do by week, just so that I know that when it hits like week four, and I don't want to look up what work I have in the syllabus. I already have it there. Or for me like recently, Google calendaring has been a game changer like total game changer. Just having like, kind of a list of like, Okay, at this time I have breakfast at this time, I will go to the gym at this time, I will shower it seems a bit extreme. But I think the big thing is if I get off track, not blaming myself at all, but having it more as a guide and a resource to look back to because getting off track is fine. And it's kind of like a natural thing anyone would do with or without ADHD. But being able to return to a routine is the thing that I think a lot of people struggle with that it's been super helpful.Hannah Choi 24:43Andrew also uses his calendar for part of the system that he's created, which starts with the process of breaking large tasks down into smaller chunks. For him, this is the key to success, so he spends much of his time breaking things down. He then and adds those smaller tasks that he's created to his calendar. And he has found a great side benefit to doing that.Andrew 25:07The amount of energy it saves me in the long run is massive, and the amount of burnout that it saves me from two. And I think that's the other thing. allowing myself to rest, right knowing that when I have something on the calendar and be like, you can work on this tomorrow, you have time to work on this tomorrow. And if you're not here tomorrow, it's not gonna matter. Right. So like, you don't have to finish this today. You have time to work on it tomorrow. And if for whatever reason you can't, then you can't write but. But that has really allowed me to incorporate rest into what I do. Which has also been just hugely powerful.Hannah Choi 25:54Timers are very helpful for people with ADHD. Using a timer can both remind you of the passing of time, and also help you to focus knowing that there's an end coming up when that timer goes off. Bob loves using timers and shared with me how he uses them.Bob Shea 26:11I'll tell you something that timers are the key to everything. If if I use the timers, the days I'm I'm diligent about using the timers, that's a good day. If I'm just like, oh, just freestyle it today, it's like it's not a bad day, it's the works falls apart a lot easier those timers, because it gives you a little deadline.Hannah Choi 26:32Andrew uses timers to make a dreaded task easier. When he and I first met, he shared with me that there was nothing he hated more than doing the dishes, we work together to figure out a way to make doing them less awful for him. And to he shared this update with me about it. Andrew 26:51I think one of the biggest things for me has been dishes, right? Like that has been, for the longest time, just the hardest thing for me, and I would do it, I would do the dishes. But it was always just like, physically painful for me to do the dishes. But I think like doing a bunch of different things, I think timing myself for a while and realizing that it actually doesn't take that long for me to do the dishes. And then I think setting a timer has also been helpful be like, you know, just do it for five minutes, and then stop if you don't want to keep doing it. And also realizing now that like I do feel better when I do it. So reminding myself of that.Hannah Choi 27:27Whatever strategies you use to create a system that supports you and your executive function challenges, it's important to remember that you own this process, and you can make it work for you. It may be different from other people's systems and you made needs more support in areas that your friends don't, you might have to ask for help more often. And that's okay. I loved what Ally had to say about this.Ally 27:51The biggest thing for me is overall finding what works, but not having shame and it being different than everyone else. Because I think the biggest thing I had to overcome in ADHD help and support was kind of the shame that I it wasn't the same that all my friends were going to do. And it wasn't the natural route I thought it should be. But ultimately, it's what helps me be successful and what helps me feel good about myself. And I don't think there should be any shame in that whatsoever. And I think kind of piecing that together for myself, at one point was super, super beneficial.Hannah Choi 28:34Ally and Andrew have both found invaluable support by working with an executive function coach. We coaches are trained to support people with executive function challenges by meeting them where they are, and helping them build these systems and habits into their day to day lives. And then they allow them to feel more confident in their ability to reach their goals. And having someone there that's on your side and understands your challenges can really help to make lasting change. You can find out more about our coaching on the beyond booksmart website, or you can just do a general search for executive function coaching on the internet. Hannah Choi 29:11Okay, so the last thing I'm going to cover today is the topic of how to get tested. If you think you or your child has ADHD, a good place to start is your child's pediatrician or your own primary physician. Testing can also be done by clinical psychologists, licensed social workers and psychiatrists. You can talk with the school psychologist at your child's school for help to there are more resources in the show notes for how to get the testing process started. It can be scary to put your kiddo or yourself out there, but it can also be the answer to many, many questions. Andrew shared his experience receiving his diagnosis. Andrew 29:51Being diagnosed was the greatest thing that ever happened to me because it allowed me to take action. I talked to a nurse practitioner and then I went and sat for like, it's very long, and you have to answer like 1000s of questions, go back to like, talk about your family history and all of that stuff. But I remember at the end of it, the woman that interviewed me for the diagnosis, she was like, oh, yeah, you, you clearly have ADHD. And she was like, let me kind of walk you through kind of what it is and how it works. And she walked me through, like, the brain structure and like, what happens in your brain and what ADHD is, and that was huge. That was massive. And I think that's what led me to coaching. And that's what, what enabled me to be like, Okay, I know what my problems are. But now I know what the source of the problem is. So I can do something about it. And I think being diagnosed has now allowed me to find some semblance of peace with the challenges that I face.Hannah Choi 30:53And Ally had a similar experience.Ally 30:55I wasn't diagnosed until I was 16, more or less, but I had experienced all the symptoms, I mean, more severely when I was younger, and kind of as it progressed more academically, through my whole life, so when I looked at the symptoms, and I wasn't really educated on ADHD, I genuinely and this is a bit sad, but I genuinely thought I was like, I'm just stupid. Like, I thought I had like some sort of IQ cap on myself. I was like, that's the only logical explanation. And once I got that diagnosis, I think I was able to do my own research and find sort of just validation in the diagnosis so that a lot of things clicked. And it just felt like, Okay, this is not like me being an intelligent in any way, whatever that means. It's just me, going down a different individual path and everyone else. And over time, I learned that there's no shame in that whatsoever, it actually makes you much, I think, well, much more well rounded and decent human.Hannah Choi 32:01Bob shared with me that the diagnosis explained everything for him. He said, This revelation, and the medication changed his life completely. Hannah Choi 32:11Before I go, I wanted to share that all three of my guests see some really positive aspects of their ADHD. Bob feels like his sense of humor is unique because of the unexpected ways his ADHD brain allows him to think. And Ally is really proud of the positive ways that ADHD affects her socially.Ally 32:31On a more positive note, I think it's affected my life with socially, I think I'm a very social person, I think, because I kind of have a lot of things going on in my head, I think I can be witty at times. And I don't know, it makes me feel like happy that I have this ability to kind of think on my feet a lot. And then kind of adding on to that problem solving. I think people with ADHD are inherently more creative. And I think people will learn any learning differences than the norm, are always going to have more creative thoughts and ideas. So I think when presented with a problem, I am proud that I can often think outside of the box a bit and think very much on my feet, which is something I'm proud of, with havingHannah Choi 33:16ADHD. Andrew shared a story about how he feels that ADHD is his superpower.Andrew 33:23I mean, it's my superpower in so many ways. And it's also my kryptonite. But I think understanding how to apply it has been has been key. So like an example of that. We went to the business partner and I went to the bank. And we were trying to open up our business account. And I was bored. We were waiting. And I was just I was sitting and I was just like waiting. And I was looking around and I was this was in New York City. And so I was just watching the people, right? And this guy like was standing outside the bank and like, he had his pants down below his bought no underwear. And I was just like, what the hell I was like, welcome to New York City. But very quickly, he came back. And because I had noticed them before, and I noticed him again. He came back and he started harassing a girl outside the bank. And I just immediately just ran up and, like, stopped the guy and like, chased him off. And but it was like, if I was if I was able to just focus on the bank account, I would have never even known the guy was there. I would have never even known that happened. I would have never seen it. But I feel like because I was bored because I was distracted because I was looking at all the things that were going on. I noticed that and I think like that, to me was a solidifying moment of like, you know what, there might be some sort of evolutionary adaptation purpose to this that we don't really recognize and appreciate in modern society. But like, I mean, think about it. If you're in the bush with somebody with ADHD, and every sound and every, like, you know, smell can trigger them. And they'll be like, what was that? That's probably somebody you want with.Hannah Choi 35:13And that is our show for today, I want to thank Ally, Andrew and Bob for openly sharing their experiences living with ADHD. They were all very happy to do so. And they really hope that their stories will help normalize both neurodivergent learners and show the world that having these conversations about ADHD is really important.Ally 35:34I mean, podcasts like these are so important and just like general work on informing the masses on ADHD, because I think when you believe that, like a neuro normative way of going about life is the only way it really makes you so confused for so many things. And you just feel very separated from the rest of the world when there's genuinely no need for that whatsoever.Hannah Choi 36:02We'll be back with more important conversations about topics that affect us every day, because executive functioning affects every aspect of our lives. I personally feel very, very grateful to be able to be part of enabling these conversations, and sharing useful information so that we can all improve our executive functioning skills and in turn, improve our lives. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying focus forward, please share it with your friends, you can subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcast, Google podcasts, Spotify, and more. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode because there's a ton and I mean a ton of good info in there. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to our podcast newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcasts will let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening!

GospelLUKE 12:49-5349"I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled! 50I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished! 51Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; 52for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; 53they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

Luke 12:49-52 [Jesus said:] 49“I came to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and what stress I am under until it is completed! 51Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division! 52From now on five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three; 53they will be divided:  father against son   and son against father,  mother against daughter   and daughter against mother,  mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law   and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

GOSPEL POWER l AUGUST 14, 2022 - Sunday 20th Sunday in Ordinary Time Gospel: Lk 12:49-53 Jesus said to his disciples, 49“I came to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and what stress I am under until it is completed! 51Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division! 52From now on five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three; 53they will be divided: father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.” The fire that Jesus yearns to ignite is the Holy Spirit, who will renew the face of the earth. But in the mystery of God's plan, this transformative work of the Spirit will have to be preceded by the sacrificial death of Jesus. This death is the baptism that he speaks about. And because it is freely assumed in the name of love, the Holy Spirit can turn the cruelty and inhumanity of the crucifixion into a source of liberation and healing for the world. The life of Jesus sets the pattern for the Holy Spirit's continuing work of transforming the face of the earth. In this pattern, glory is intertwined with suffering and death; and new life is born at the cost of labor pains. This pattern is a stumbling block for many and a cause of division even in a household. Thus, Jesus' way continues to be the less traveled road today. Lord Jesus, grant that love may triumph over our fear of pain, diminishment, loss. Let your Holy Spirit transform us into new creatures. Amen.

SPEAKERSSuzanne Noble, Peter MarriottSuzanne Noble  00:09Welcome to Sex Advice for Seniors. So I'm Suzanne, and I'm 61.Peter Marriott  00:18I'm Peter, and I'm 61 for another three weeks. About four weeks. So 62 very soon.Suzanne Noble  00:34And we are here to talk about sex. When you're older.Peter Marriott  00:49Yeah. Well, apparently.Suzanne Noble  00:50So let's talk about sex. We've got this list that we created a very extensive list, because of course, we are both very, very seriously interested in this topic.Peter Marriott  00:58And unqualified, completely...Suzanne Noble  01:01unqualified, except that both of us have had quite a bit of experience. Some more than others. Possibly me. And you are just trying to catch up.Peter Marriott  01:13Yep.Suzanne Noble  01:14And you've got a long way to go. But that's okay. Because you still got time,Peter Marriott  01:20It's quality rather than quantity. Well, that's what we'd like to think.Suzanne Noble  01:25Sometimes it is quantity. Quantity can be quality.Peter Marriott  01:31Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's hope so.  Suzanne Noble  01:36Well, for your sake.So we've got these topics for discussion. And I thought, let's just start with the first one, shall we?Peter Marriott  01:41Feelings of inadequacy and how to overcome them.Suzanne Noble  01:45God sounds serious, doesn't it? Feelings of inadequacy and how to overcome them? Yeah. And why did we come up with that topic?Peter Marriott  01:53Do you know I can't remember? I think probably because we've been talking about how people feel inadequate about their sexual experience and feel as though there's a lot still to be gained in terms of experience, and how do they get that? And if they don't have it, you know, are they adequate lovers? And so you feel bad about yourself and blah, blah, blah? And all those sorts of questions. I think that's where that came from.Suzanne Noble  02:25I think it originally came from because we were talking about the fact that sometimes when people talk about older people and sex, just generally, they tend to focus on the negatives, don't they? Yeah, they tend to focus on the fact that men can't get it up anymore. And they tend to focus on the fact that women have dry vaginas, and so it tends to be quite derogatory, actually, which can lead to feelings of inadequacy.  And I certainly know that there are conversations that we've had in the Advantages of Age group about really is it even important anymore. Is sex even important anymore? And I personally think it's okay if you don't want it. But equally, if you do want it, and you're getting messages chucked at you from the media predominantly that make you feel that you shouldn't want it anymore.Peter Marriott  03:22Or that somehow it's yucky and inappropriate for people of a certain age to be having sex at all. Certainly, young people think that I mean, I know it's become a bit of a joke, but when young people think about their parents or their grandparents, I'm sure that doesn't even enter into their heads, that they might still be sexual beings, fully autonomous sexual beings who get up to stuff. The messages coming from everywhere outside are fairly negative about sex.Suzanne Noble  03:59And I know that I've had partners in the past that have felt uncomfortable about their erections. And when I've suggested that there might be some pharmaceutical products that are available to help, they've been quite dismissive about that, and some people haven't. And frankly, I think, personally, that if you struggle with things, and there's some help available, whether it's lubricants if you're a woman or Viagra, whatever, if you're a guy, then it's okay. Yeah, okay to say, I need a little bit of help.Peter Marriott  04:41I think people are generally very bad at recognising they need help and then asking for it.Suzanne Noble  04:48I've had conversations with women about lubrication, which has suggested that if you don't get wet enough that there's something wrong with you. Whereas it's just a physiological thing that sometimes happens when you're an older woman.Peter Marriott  04:49Well, that's the problem, isn't it? We attach all sorts of moral categories to what are just physical things, you know. And that's really, I think the weakness of a lot of the attitudes towards sex and older people is because as you get older, the moral questions, they kind of take over. And they become attached to all sorts of ethical questions and aesthetic questions about the aesthetic appropriateness of your body as a 62-year-old compared to when you were 22. So yeah, general inadequacy, not being up to the job, and then not being appropriate for the job.Suzanne Noble  05:49That's very philosophical, I must say.Peter Marriott  05:53I'm here all week.Suzanne Noble  05:56I think that's absolutely true. And I think people's challenges with their changing bodies contribute to their feelings of inadequacy. And I know that I have come to understand that male sexuality and female sexuality are quite different. And male sexuality often can be quite driven by the visual. And so it's, whereas women's sexuality is much more in my experience anyway, driven by what goes on in my brain, and may not always be attached to the visual, although I think that we all have to acknowledge that our bodies are ageing, and with ageing comes things, you know, wrinkles, droopiness, and all sorts of other stuff that kind of naturally occurs.And I am quite aware of the fact that as an ageing woman, keeping my body in shape is closely aligned to feeling sexy. And the more I feel better about the way I look, the more I feel that I'm more attractive to, in my case, because I'm mainly heterosexual, men, who do often value, that sort of thing. So I think also, that can be really, really difficult because women do naturally age, and well, we all do. But when you know that the opposite sex is strongly driven by the visual, it can be quite difficult as an older woman to feel that you're still attractive to them in that heteronormative kind of way. Which is the only thing that I can really talk about.Peter Marriott  07:38I think that's right. Whereas men, it doesn't matter how old they are, they still think they are devastatingly attractive to young girls, you know, I mean, there are so many examples of it. I mean, from Harvey Weinstein, who we were talking about earlier. I'm sure he seriously thought that you know, the young women would be attracted to him. And because power is associated so often with men of a certain status and age and, and wealth. And traditionally, it would have gone alongside that, you know, the older men who have younger women, because just that's just the way it is. Whereas men are obviously concerned very, very deeply about their own physical inadequacies as well. But you know, from weight and beer bellies, and I mean, the biggest adverts on the internet are for penis size, basically, yeah, you know, getting penis enlargements and extensions and creams and god knows what else to make your, you know, make your penis bigger. We have our inadequacies, as well, but they're very compartmentalised. It's about how big your dick is or how big your stomach is. And we don't think of ourselves as therefore not… I don't know, maybe we do - Not being attractive overall as a package because people with small dicks and big tummies still think of themselves as devastatingly attractive.Suzanne Noble  09:16I think the menopause and just the changes that women naturally go through in their life contribute so much in terms of how they see themselves and often when they get to the menopause, and sometimes, and certainly, in my case, my libido was nowhere near what it was earlier in my life. You can feel a sense of grief about losing something that you know, you're never gonna get back, you know? And men, whereas men, okay, you can look down at your belly, and you can do something about it. Yeah, you know, you can actually just go and just exercise and change that but for women and hormonal changes that go on in our body are forever. And so there is a process that I think we go through. And we make choices about how important sex is in a relationship in relation to lots of other things in our lives. And some people choose that is actually not that important anymore. Or I spoke to somebody today, it was like, just oh, I just don't know if I'm up for it in the same way that I was before. And I get that I completely get that. And I think that there's a lack of awareness about the fact that actually, yeah, it does change.But if you want to keep doing it, because you enjoyed it, and it was important in your life, it can just change with you. But it doesn't have to stop completely. And I think with the message that we get, and you harked back when you were talking about kids talking about their parents and thinking about the yuckiness and all of that, is that people kind of assume that it just ends. You know, like, oh, they shouldn't be doing that anymore. And if they are doing it, it's kind of, oh, it's bit gross, really, I don't even want to think about it. It's kind of quite disgusting. To think about it. But actually, it's just different. And that's how I think about it now is, it's not that same craziness that was in my 40s. But it's still there, it's just a little different. And I also suspect that men have similar challenges around the lack of testosterone and things, which don't, in my view, get nearly enough airtime. Because there's no place for men to talk about that s**t, though.Peter Marriott  11:44That's true, and probably the result of that is, that we don't really know anything about that. I have no idea about testosterone, and you know how mine is, I think I'm okay. And, you know, I check my finger lengths now and again, to make sure that I've still, you know, my third finger is the ring finger is still longer than my index finger. In fact, it's getting longer. And that sort of thing. And, I think, to get philosophical, again, the problem is change. In general, I mean, not just sexual change, or bodily changes, just that nothing stays the same, you know, as Heraclites said, Panta Rhei, that everything changes all the time. It's probably pronounced Heraclitus but it's pronounced in different ways. That everything changes, or changes all the time. And as we get older, we kind of expect it to just stay the same and it doesn't, it just doesn't, nothing does. And therefore you have to adapt to that. And you have to find a new way of being. And that's probably where, you know, probably one of the major problems in the relationship is that people change at different rates. And that's to do with childbirth. It's to do with childbirth and childbirth and has to do with just the different rates at which men and women change. And, and of course, you have, you know, women have menopause. Men don't so we don't get it. Don't really know anything about it.Suzanne Noble  13:34They just hope it's over quick.Peter Marriott  13:37Yeah, it's ignorance and fear of change both within a relationship and within oneself as well about, you know, how things are changing and what's different, I don't feel as though much has changed for me. I still feel the same now as I did when I was, you know, 19 or 20, or whenever, but, but obviously… I was somewhere yesterday, and I saw my caught sight of myself in a big shop window and I really did think for a second, who's that standing there? And it was me as a 62-year-old man - in four weeks' time. And that that disparity between how you feel in your head, and how you look to the rest of the world, is it's a big thing to overcome in terms of sexuality as well because I think of myself as a very vigorous young 20-year-old man, you know, always up for it and all the rest of it, but I know I'm not, you know,Suzanne Noble  14:41Now, come once and then you have to wait about 48 hours really.Peter Marriott  14:48I'm not an athlete.Suzanne Noble  14:52Anyway, we talked about feelings of inadequacy, but we haven't talked too much about how to overcome them. Because I think that's the thing is, you can feel quite overwhelmed by all the messaging and the changes as we've spoken about that are going on in your body and everything that's happening. There are not really a great many places where you can actually discuss any of this stuff. I think for men, even fewer places, and there are probably for women who might be able to share some of the challenges that they're having with their girlfriends and be able to get, you know, feedback around that, and men kind of suffer in silence, I always think generally, about this kind of stuff.Peter Marriott  15:37Yeah, we just read what women have to say about sex, and then get off on it.Suzanne Noble  15:44But I think, you know, one of the things is that is around overcoming some of the shame that's attached to sex, which as we know, especially at our age can go back generations, it can go back to childhood, so much of sex for me is around how your parents dealt with it or didn't deal with it, and how that impacted upon how you feel about it in later life. So, so some of that is about recognising where your idea of sex came from, and how you generally see it, whether it's something that's attached to shame, or whether it's something that's really positive and joyful, and something that is a healthy part of every adult life.Peter Marriott  16:33I think that's really important.Suzanne Noble  16:34But I also think what's really important is to recognise that there in the same way that there's Viagra for men, and all that, is that we now live in a world in which there are really easy ways to overcome some of the basic physical problems that we have. Right. So you know, lubricants, whether you decide you're just going to use olive oil, almond oil, you're gonna go to the shop and buy water, based lubricants, whatever you happen to need. There's no shame in using lube. I don't think that any man, any man that I've ever met in my life if I just like spread some lube into my hand and do something with it gets turned off by that. I've never had a single occasion where anyone ever went, Oh, what's that? And I went, Oh, it's a bit of lube. And they went, Oh, gross. You're not wet enough. I'm not gonna have sex with you. I don't think that's ever happened, but I'm sure that lots of women feel some sense of inadequacy, but I've never had a single occasion, or any man…Peter Marriott  17:43You make it sound like you've had sex with lots of people.Suzanne Noble  17:45I don't know why that is. You know, and equally. I personally have never said if somebody said to me, Oh, I'm just going to drop some Viagra now. I've never gone Oh, gross. Don't do that. I've always gone like, oh, playtime. It's gonna be fun.Peter Marriott  18:06Yeah. I agree is a very strange thing. Because my experience is that when women are very divided about it, yeah, some women think that's great, you know, cuz he's gonna have a hard-on for hours and hours. Fantastic. And there are some women who think well, what's wrong with me? Because he needs Viagra to get it up, you know, and to have sex with me and I'm so unattractive that, you know, he needs the chemical stimulant to do it. And, you know, that's quite tricky, I think to deal with. But the same goes, it's the same as the lube question, but the other way round, you know, what's wrong with me as a man if she's not getting wet enough? Yeah, I'm obviously doing something wrong. And or she doesn't fancy me or whatever. And I think that's the first place that people's thoughts go to, rather than to the place of there have been physiological changes which require them to use them or to, you know, to use Viagra or whatever.Suzanne Noble  19:09Yeah. I think that's a really good point. And I can imagine that there are some women, and I know that I've certainly been in this situation myself, with men where the lack of lubricant was a kind of thing. For sure. Right? Yeah, for sure. So I do get that. The bottom line is always and I probably would say that you know, we're going to end this conversation. Always. It's around communication. Always, always, like, it doesn't matter what's going on. It's just about being really clear about, look, it's not that I don't think you're super hot. It's just I need a bit of extra help. And also, the, you know, what a lot of people don't understand about Viagra is that if you don't actually fancy somebody And you take Viagra it doesn't make a difference. And so it's not like this automatic thing that you take it and Ping! and everybody it's happy days, you have to actually want to have sex, you actually have to want it. So there is also, that knowledge that the pill itself is not the solution. There are a bunch of other factors that have to go on. Understanding that, as well as being able to communicate with your partner. What's going on, is really important, because that's going to create the intimacy and relax you and make you feel sexy and just kind of want to do it.Peter Marriott  20:50I think so too. And I think talking about is is is I have a turn on. I'm just thinking now maybe we should sneak offSuzanne Noble  21:05I knew you were thinking that, so obvious now. Anyway, this is our first episode of Sex Advice for Seniors.Peter Marriott  21:18Who dares comes.Suzanne Noble  21:23And if you have any questions, any questions of any nature that you would like to share with us, then you can send them to where should we send them to?Peter Marriott  21:35That's a really good question.Suzanne Noble  21:39You could just send them to Suzanne Noble on Facebook orPeter Marriott  21:45Peter Marriott Thompson on Facebook.Suzanne Noble  21:50We've got a page on Facebook called Sex Advice for Seniorsand you could send them there as well. So there we go. So professional.Peter Marriott  22:02Brilliant. Goodbye.Thanks for reading Sex Advice for Seniors! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support our work. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sexadviceforseniors.com

Support based around Executive Function improvement promises a lot, but is there any evidence that you can actually improve your Executive Function skills? And if you can, what does the process look like and how can you truly measure you or your child's Executive Function improvement? In today's episode, we explore these questions and more with thought-leader Peg Dawson - an esteemed psychologist, expert in Executive Functions, and the co-author of the acclaimed book "Smart But Scattered" which she wrote with her colleague. Richard Guare, and has become essential readings for ADHD and Executive Function skill development.I had an incredible time talking with Peg and learning from her wisdom. I also know you'll find endless amounts of valuable insight that you can use from our conversation in your own life.Related ResourcesExecutive Skill Questionnaire-RevisedESQ-R Self-Report Assessment Tool -This is the tool that Peg and I discuss in this episode. You can take it here, free!Beyond BookSmart Reviews & Our Results - How Beyond BookSmart used the ESQ-RSmart But Scattered books by Peg Dawson, EdD and Richard GuareSmart But Scattered - The Smart But Scattered websiteHelping Children and Teens Strengthen Executive Skills To Reach Their Full Potential (Parent Webinar) - This is the video I mention towards the end of the episode. A fantastic resource for learning more about EF skills. Old Enough! - A Netflix show about Japanese toddlers who go out on errands.Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. I heard from one of our listeners, Margy, who shared that she is really enjoying listening and would also like to learn a little bit more about executive function skills and deepen her understanding of how they impact us. Well, Margy will get her wish today, because for this episode, I got to have a conversation with Peg Dawson. Peg is an expert in the field of executive function skills, and the co-author of Smart but Scattered, which she wrote with her colleague Dick Guare. Smart but Scattered is one of the leading books on ADHD and executive function skills. I'll let her tell you more about herself and the work she does. But before I dive into her conversation, I wanted to share that you'll hear us mention the 11 executive function skills throughout the podcast. If you're not familiar with all of them, I thought it might be helpful if I did a quick review. But before I do that, I wanted to mention one other thing that you might find interesting and valuable. You can discover your own strengths and challenges when it comes to executive function skills by using the Executive Skills Questionnaire, which is a tool that Peg and Dick developed. At Beyond BookSmart we also use this tool to help our clients measure their own executive function skills before and after working with their coach for some time. You'll hear Peg and I discuss the findings which I have to say are pretty promising. And definitely give hope to those of us who are forgetful, disorganized, or inattentive. Check out the show notes to find the link to this questionnaire. Okay, so back to that review of executive function skills I told you I'd share. If you already know them, you are welcome to skip ahead about three minutes and jump straight to my conversation with Peg. Okay, so here we go. Executive function skills are the skills that we use to get through, or execute our days. These skills emerge and develop over the period of time from birth until about mid to late 20s. But like I just mentioned, it is possible to improve these skills beyond that age. I'm going to use Peg and Dick's list of executive function skills, which they have categorized into two groups, foundational skills, and advanced skills. If you'd like to learn even more about these skills, please check out the resources in the show notes for today's episode. Okay, so first up are the foundational skills that are the first to emerge as kids grow. We've got response inhibition. And this is just a fancy way of describing impulse control. You know, being able to patiently wait your turn in the grocery store and holding back when you really just want to bag the guy's groceries for him because he is just taking too long. All right, next up, we've got working memory. And our working memory is what helps us hold on to information and then use it later on. And emotional control or emotional regulation. And that's the ability to manage and respond to our emotions in ways that are appropriate for the situation. And sustained attention is being able to stay focused on something that you're doing, even if you're distracted or bored or tired. And task initiation is just a big word that means getting yourself going on something, getting started. And cognitive flexibility, which is the last of the foundational skills is also known as flexible thinking and that's just being able to think of new solutions or being okay with last minute changes to plans. Okay, so those are the foundational skills and next up the advanced skills. And according to Peg, these start to emerge in most kids around middle school, but they don't really get a good handle on them until much later. First up, we've got planning and prioritizing, and this is being able to figure out a good way to reach a goal or complete a task. And organization is well exactly what it sounds like. Time management is the ability to estimate how much time something will take and also figure out the best way to stay within set time limits. Goal directed persistence is basically just not giving up while you're working towards a goal. And metacognition is a very long word that means thinking about how we think. And this executive function skill helps us reflect on why we do what we do or don't do, and then use that reflection to come up with some ideas to help ourselves change. And the last EF skill which I love and Peg recently added to her list is stress tolerance and this is the ability to thrive in stressful situations and cope with change and uncertainty. Okay, so now that I've successfully used my ability to maintain attention to the task of reading that list, maybe you can use your working memory to remember some of these skills while you're listening to our conversation. And perhaps this episode will inspire you to use cognitive flexibility and metacognition to come up with some ideas for how you can have a positive impact on your own executive function skill development. Alright, this is getting out of hand. Okay, now on to the show. Hi, Peg. Thanks so much for joining me today. Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners who don't know who you are?Peg Dawson 05:41Sure. Sure. Yeah. So my name is Peg Dawson. I worked as a school psychologist for many years in the public schools in Maine and New Hampshire. And then I, I went into a private practice with my colleague and ultimately my co author, guy named Dick Guare, Dr. Guare. And in that practice, we focused on kids and adults with learning and attention disorders. So I started working with kids with ADHD in particular a whole lot more once I left the public schools and started working in a clinic setting. And as I worked with that population, I pretty quickly realized that the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic criteria for ADHD which is problems with attention or problems, or hyperactivity, impulsivity, or both, really didn't begin to describe the problems. I said, these kids having a huge problems with time management and planning and organization and those kinds of things. And I remember talking to my colleague Dick about at the time, he and I both did our doctoral work at the University of Virginia though we were there at different times. But he went on to do a postdoc in neuro psychology at Children's Hospital in Boston. So as I was describing these issues, these are, those are executive skills. So this is the late 80s, early 90s. And people were not using that term much in those days. So he and I decided we really wanted to understand these skills better, what are they? How do they develop? What's going on in the brain? How do they impact school performance? And of course, most importantly, how do you help kids with weak executive skills become more successful students. So that's what led to our writing. We wrote a book for professionals first, and then realized there was a huge role for parents in all this. So that's what led us to write Smart, but Scattered and more recently Smart, but Scattered Teens. We've written a book for adults as well called the Smart but Scattered Guide to Success. And we wrote a book on coaching quite a few years ago now, which we're just now revising, the revision should probably come out next year, I would guess. So that's my domain. And in more recent years, I've diminished, I've minimized my private practice in my clinical work and to emphasize doing webinars and trainings and professional development. So I work for some professional development companies, but I also get invited by schools to come in and talk with teachers about executive skills. And I teach an online coaching seminar every year, which attracts people from all over the world, actually. So. So that's, that's sort of where I ended up mostly during professional development training. That all started from working with kids with ADHD with executive so talented.Hannah Choi 08:18I love that. I love that trajectory. How wonderful. And I'm sure that there are just so many people in your past that have been so positively affected by all the work that you've done.Peg Dawson 08:28Yeah, no, I like to think so. I used to when I was a school psychologist, my husband used to tease me about trying to save the world one child at a time. I think he was onto something. Once I once I wrote books and realized so I can reach lots of kids by reaching their parents. So yeah, it feels like the work I've done has has stretched beyond saving the world one kid at a time.Hannah Choi 08:53Well, I have to say I just I had heard about your book, but I hadn't, I hadn't read it. And I am I am in the middle of it right now. And I my kids are 10 and 13 now and I sure wish that i i am using I am using it and going to use it and I'm a coach, so I know a lot of the strategies anyway but I just I love how you presented everything and it just it it I felt like it gave me a lot of permission as a parent to be okay with my own executive function challenges my own those skills that I am not so great at and it was really great to read that part. So if there's any parents listening right now and you feel like you're struggling with your own executive skill challenges, I recommend Peg's book because it really has made me feel better and like I said, my kids are a little bit older. And I'm still it's still getting benefit from it. So although I think my teenager could have also, like could have like co authored the book with you. She's got she's got incredible executive skills. I don't really understand it. Oh, yeah, it's, it's but you know, what's interesting is that I was looking at how you break them down into foundational skills and advanced skills. And, and you're right, like she's really got the foundational skills down. And I was just telling my husband the other day before I, before I learned about how you broke them down into the two categories, and I was telling him like, well, she still struggles with like metacognition and cognitive flexibility. And I'm like, oh, that's why, because they just haven't developed yet. So,Peg Dawson 10:31yeah, yeah, it's, it's really reaffirming to hear that. Again, we used to talk about all 11 skills. And we talked about them roughly in the order in which we think they emerged developmentally and then it's, it finally dawned on me. Now, there's a distinct difference between those advanced skills and those foundational skills. And I just find it particularly when I'm talking with, with parents, and teachers of middle school kids, in particular, to tell them, these skills are just emerging at this age. So let's understand that if you've got a kid who's struggling with planning, or organization and time management, that is totally age appropriate. Because so many people have this sort of expectation that kids are going to be proficient at that age, and they're just not soHannah Choi 11:16yeah, I just just in the most recent podcast episode that we released, a, it was a conversation that I had between the mom of one of my clients, just me, and, and she, when I met her, she was in fourth grade, and now she's in eighth grade. And, and I've been working with her the whole time. And it's really neat to see, to see those executive skills emerging as the time has, has gone on. And also, you know, like, just maturity and all that, that goes hand in hand with all of that. And, and just yesterday, she's really, really demo- In our session yesterday, she really demonstrated that, that she's really moving into the some of the more advanced, advanced skills us it's exciting to see.Peg Dawson 12:00Yeah that's really gratifying to see. And, you know, for for kids with ADHD, again, I'm always preaching patients to parents. I don't know how many both kids themselves as young adults, but also parents of kids with ADHD, when they reached young adulthood, you said, you said, you know, wasn't till their their mid 20s. And it felt like this light went off or the switch changed or something. And so that's why I'm always saying you can't judge your child at 14 and make assumptions or predictions or what they're going to be like, at 24, 25. Because there are radical changes that occur in that time. And I think it gives some parents...Hannah Choi 12:43Yeah, right. I was just going to say like, what do you what do you say to someone who feels like, their child is never going to, you know, get to the point where they can do X, Y, and Z? You know, how do you how do you support parents who feel like, they're not changing fast enough? Or they're not, you know, becoming what they want them to be fast? Yeah,Peg Dawson 13:02yeah. Well, one of the things I say over and over again, is it progresses measured in years and not months with these kids. And yeah, and in fact, I had a school counselor who actually printed that cut it, printed it out, framed it put it on the wall in her office, because so many parents, middle school counselor, of course, so many parents coming in saying Why can't my kid do this, that or the other thing? And so I sometimes say to think back a year ago, can you see progress since a year ago? Because that's a more reasonable timeframe than to look at the child's six weeks ago. And and assume that they're not moving fast enough? Because we're talking about these are habits. I mean, I call executive skills, habits of mind, but we know it takes a long time to acquire a habit. And that's under normal conditions when the brain is not still developing. So so in a developing brain on top of that, and no wonder it takes time.Hannah Choi 14:05Yeah, no wonder that the progress is measured in years, not months. Reminds me of the other saying like progress, not perfection, right? We're just, we nobody's no one, even us adults, none of us are perfect in our executive function skills. Right? I'm sure that you, you have some that you don't feel confident about. And I do so.Peg Dawson 14:24Absolutely. And I do occasionally I do presentations for, for adults, or for companies in particular. In fact, my son works in North Carolina, and he's working in an organization that consults to textile co ops. And he asked me to come in and talk about executive skills last week, and I mean, it was simultaneously translated into Spanish because half the people were there were Guatemalan immigrants. And the other half are native English speakers, but everyone just gave them the questionnaire I said, talk about your strengths. How does that help you in the job? Talk about one of your challenges. How does that get in the way? And I haven't think a little about So what could you do to get better at it. But I've done this a couple of times my son, he's worked for a couple of different companies. And each time he reports afterwards, that people just feel much more comfortable talking about the things they struggle with. And it absolutely is true. And I have to say, this is where the work Dick and I did really opened our eyes. Because when we started writing and talking about executive skills, I think the general assumption was once you reach adulthood, your skills are should be all evenly and well developed across the board. As soon as we developed our questionnaire and started giving it out to audiences, we realized no, that's not true. In fact, we could have just looked at ourselves. And so I, I just, again, I find people sort of relaxed when they realize Oh, you mean, I'm not supposed to be perfect that anything was that's more like the exception than the rule. So yeah,Hannah Choi 15:59yeah, definitely. So the questionnaire that you're talking about? Could you explain a little bit about that? It's in your I know, it's in your book. And I know, we use it here at Beyond BookSmart to, to have our clients kind of check in with their own executive skill development. So can you tell us a little bit more about that.Peg Dawson 16:16So there are a bunch of different versions out there. There are versions for adults versions for parents and teachers to pull out on kids and we have versions for kids to go out. And so the original version, the one that's used the most identifies it had lists three items for executive skill and you basically - It's a very simple rating scale to take because if you're doing it by hand, you fill out the the items, you figure out what's the total score for each and you look at your high scores, those are your strengths, you look at your low scores, and those your weaknesses. The ESQ-R, which is the version that Beyond BookSmart uses, is a shortened version, it has 25 items, but they've been subjected to psychometric analysis to make them the best measures they can be. And from that, although we talked about 11 different skills, it really ends up that there are five primary skill sets that are all our items sort of fall into. And they think I can just get in them quickly. It's it's plan management, time management, organization, behavior regulation, and emotion regulation. And so this is now a survey which Beyond BookSmart uses, you can also find it on our website, you can actually take the questionnaire on our website, if you want to, which is smartbutscatteredkids.com. And we developed in part because we were hoping people would use it as a research instrument. I mean, we're using it now both mostly to educate people and to help them learn about themselves and learn about their kids with their students. But we really thought if we had something was a little more psychometrically sound, then it could be used for research purposes. And that's what started happening in part because it's free. Yeah, and I get I get letters from people in India and people in Malaysia asking to use it, and can they translate it into their language? And so it's now gotten a lot of use. And I think, and with some interesting results, in fact, the Beyond BookSmart results were as interesting as, as anything I've seen, in part because what Beyond BookSmart did was they look use it as a pretest and a post test. So before kids started coaching, and then after they'd been coaching for 16 weeks, to look to see if there were differences did any of their those five domains I described earlier, did they get stronger, and they found some really encouraging results starting with elementary aged kids. And so they broke it down into elementary, middle high school, college and adults. And across the board, they found some changes with some of the skills not all of them, but they would be the skills you would expect to see change through coaching. So it's Plan Management and time management in particular, as well as the composite score, the total score changes as well. But the other interesting thing is because I was just looking at the the report before we went on this podcast, I was just looking at it again. And what I found was that this this strongest the biggest impact is with college students and adults.Hannah Choi 19:29I saw that too.Peg Dawson 19:30So here's what I find this so encouraging, because people will say to me often I'm an adult, is it too late? No, it's not too late. And I've just recently started, I've been coaching and I haven't coached for years, but I've been coaching a couple of adults with different issues. And it's just it's been so much fun to see how quickly they can sort of grasp your ideas and your strategies and put them into effect and we're report back to you. I know it's fun to coach kids. But it's really those of us who coach adults find it to be really gratifying.Hannah Choi 20:08Yeah, I might Skyla my, my now eighth grader, she's my only school-aged client and all of my others are college and adults. So I get the satisfaction of working with college and adult students, it's really fun. That's really fun. Yeah, and a lot of them have sought out coaching on their own. So they're more more motivated, which actually makes me think of something, if you if a little bit shifting gears, but just had this idea, if so, when when when clients come to someone like me that, you know, mostly works with college and adult, they've sought it out themselves, they're not resistant to it, because they, they're oftentimes they're paying for it too. Or they're, you know, they're investing their own time and their own, you know, resources into it. But some of these kids come in reluctantly, and feel pretty frustrated on, like having to work on their executive skills. And I'm sure you've had a lot of experience with kids who are not interested in making any change, right? What do you like? How do you support kids like that? And how do you support the parents of those kids?Peg Dawson 21:18So our coaching process, and we felt this from the start, I mean, it's been it's evolved over the years. But right from the start, we felt like this has to be a voluntary process. This is not something where you can coerce a kid into to do I mean, you might be able to make a kid go see a tutor. And since the tutor is teaching academic subjects, maybe the kid will realize this will benefit me. Because it's clear, you know, I need help an algebra, here's the help, see, I do better on my tests, one of their executive skills issues involved, they tend to be not as clear cut to kids anyway. And they don't necessarily make a direct connection between my problems getting started on tasks, and what I might do with a coach. And so kids tend to, so we, early on, we said, we have to sort those out. And, and if you're looking to coach a kid, step one is to make sure they're voluntarily participating. Now, we have refined that over the years in that we found ways to persuade kids sometimes that coaching might be helpful, and our thought is well, and good coaches are able to do this with many kids that are reluctant kid, if they're willing to give it a shot for a few weeks, then they see the benefit. And then they're on board.Hannah Choi 22:44Yeah. And so soon as you develop that good rapport with them exactly. Get their buy in. Yeah.Peg Dawson 22:49And that's something that I think Beyond BookSmart is particularly good at, I think that's an emphasis in in how your your coaches work. And maybe how your training goes is, first of all, you try to match the kid with a coach that you think would be compatible. And and then you work at that relationship. And you recognize that that relationship is we especially with reluctant kids is going to be the key. If that relationship clicks, it'll work. If it doesn't click, it won't work. We've started also just in the last couple of years, putting a greater emphasis on training our coaches to use motivational interviewing techniques. And those are in motivational interviewing is just what it says interviewing in a way to help the individual feel motivated to want to change. And, and so once you incorporate that into the coaching process, then that to helps you sort out who's a good candidate for coaching and who's not. Because as you go through that motivational interviewing process, if the kid keeps putting up roadblocks, and you can't figure out how to get them to start taking down the roadblocks, then it's really probably a waste of time for for the kid and a waste of money for for the parent. And so I think and again, you probably do this to be on Bookstart we're, we're fairly, we recommend being fairly honest with parents upfront, both to try to assess them that I remember a few years ago, I had an eighth grader come in to see me and the parents thought he wasn't doing as well in school as they thought he should be. And so they thought they came in to see whether I could recommend a coach for them. And my first question was, does your kid want to work with a coach? Oh, no, no, he's dead set against it. I talked to the kid and I found out what his goals were. He had some goals so I sort of began the coaching process within like, what grades would you like to be earning? What do you think you need to do differently to earn those grades? And what we ended up and then Since I knew he didn't want to work with a coach, I said, So you think you need to bring your grades up? I've got a process for that. But you probably can't do it alone, you're gonna need help from someone so your mom could help you study for tests, or he was identified, he had a resource from teacher or your researcher and teacher could have been studied, as well with resource from teacher really didn't want the mom involved at all. So I contacted the resource from teachers that got this great template for studying for tests. Are you willing to do this with this kid? And she said, Sure, absolutely. So the deal I made with the kid was that if he brought his grades up to the level he wanted them to be, and it was A/Bs and he was capable of that. At the first marking period, at the first progress report, we would look at his grades. And if he had met his goal, I would not make recommended, I would not give the parents name, but coach. And then at the end of the marking period, again, if his grades were one, I still wouldn't get the parents name coach. I mean, the ironic thing was, the resource room teacher was his coach. And that was basically what she was doing. But in his mind, the coach was someone that you'd have to meet outside someone else on his own time as a stranger. So that's, you know, again, sometimes we can make deals with kids, too, to have that, but it won't last over time, if they're really not invested in the deals will work for a short period of time, but they won't work.Hannah Choi 26:22Right? It reminds me the idea of just meeting people where they are and and that you can't, you know, what does that like leading a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And it just, I was thinking in your book, I loved how you how you talked about how, instead of trying to impose these things on the kids than it just set the situation up for them to find some success. And, and for you to as the parent to find some success, and just kind of meeting the kid, where are the, where are they where they are at that time. And I think just as humans, that works really well for all of us, even adults. So yeah,Peg Dawson 27:03Yeah, I'm always struck by how so every year I, I trained? Well, I have this past year and 50 people sign up for my coaching seminar, probably about 25 of them were were real, invested participants. And and so they did all the homework. And they did, they coached a kid and they gave me feedback. And I'm always struck by for some of these, and many of the people taking my coaching class are teachers. So they're used to being in the classroom, and they're used to being in charge and telling kids what to do. And when the light bulb goes off, and they say, well, it works a whole lot better when the kid is the one who's making the goal and the kid is one is deciding how they're gonna, strategy they're gonna use. So it's always, but it feels like we don't do that with kids enough, we don't empower them to understand that they can change and that they can take control. And they can be effective.Hannah Choi 28:00Yeah, somewhat related, but just the idea of empowering kids. I teach sewing lessons. And some of the parents I talked to are surprised to find out that the kids are going to use real sewing machines and real needles and real irons. And you know, they could get poked, and they got to be really careful. And I don't know if it's this day and age, but I do find that it seems like parents are afraid and like they want to protect their kids. So it often ends up that the kids are not being challenged with opportunities to learn these real skills.Peg Dawson 28:33Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. I've, my son sent me this amazing map of years ago that was printed in some British magazine newspaper, which showed three or four generations of one family and in England, somewhere in the middle of England. And it basically showed it drew a circle around the area in which each generation at the age of seven was allowed to travel on their own. And it went from this giant space, like seven miles for the grandfather, whereas the current generation, it was this tiny little space. Okay, you can walk across the street. Yeah, across the street. Yeah, we definitely. And I actually blame the fact that there's so much media attention anytime something goes wrong. It's that and so we all have this catastrophe in our head that we think is just waiting to happen to our kids.Hannah Choi 29:30And it's cognitive distortion has a powerful grip on on our brains when we are exposed to so much media. My son is actually walking home from school by himself today for the first time. Three quarters of a mile, he's 10 is three quarters of a mile. He's in fourth grade. He's got a great sense of direction, so I know he'll be fine. SoPeg Dawson 29:50I have my, my younger son lives in Japan and they have a son, who's seven and starting at age six When he was in first grade, he switched from a international school to a Japanese school. Starting in first grade, he, they, they shaped it gradually over time. But he now walks to the train station takes the train gets off, one train gets on another one gets to the school, takes a bus to the school, he does that all independently. And we visit. We've been in Japan several times. And it's amazing, you know, seven o'clock at night, and you see these tiny little kids on the subway because they've gone to after-school after school. Yeah. By themselves. So it's suchHannah Choi 30:33If you did that here someone would call the cops on you. Yeah.Peg Dawson 30:36It's such a cultural influence. Yeah, actually an executive skill development. You know, among other things, it's what we allow kids to explore, and to experience because executive skills don't have to be explicitly taught, if we give kids the opportunity to learn them, as they interact with their world in their environment.Hannah Choi 30:59Yeah, I spend. So my my client Skyla. You know, over four years, many of our sessions were just us talking, and me, modeling, you know, modeling cognitive flexibility or modeling, how I was going to plan my day. And I never said, this is how I'm going to do it, this is how you should do it. And I just hoped that, you know, the, that, that what I was trying to teach her was getting through, and it takes a long time, but you're truly meeting them where they are, when you do it that way, you know, you're not forcing anything on them. Yeah, and that's what I love about, about how executive skills can be taught to anyone in with any, by any means, you know, like for kids, it makes sense, okay, like, Let's practice some skills with schoolwork. Because that's the work that you do that is, you know, how you what you do to get through your day, you know, you do schoolwork. And then so for adults, you know, you can you know, their job or their managing their home or something. And I just I love that. I love that about it.Peg Dawson 32:09Yeah, I also think that when we explicitly label the skills for kids or for adults, that can actually speed up the learning process. So I get one of the women I'm one of the people I'm coaching now is a woman very bright in her 40s I think who she's had some medical issues. So she's out of work at the moment, trying to work her way back into work, grew up with an attention disorder, now went to an Ivy League college obviously worked really hard, but she ended up with this residual sense of she can't do things as well as other people can. And so when we meet, whenever I can, I point out that, you know, that's metacognition and that is one of your strengths. In fact, that's probably what got you to the level you're at in your job is that she just needs to hear that because she just thinks of herself as being terrible task initiation, terrible a time management, terrible a planning, saying, Yeah, but let's look at possibility. Let's look at metacognition. SoHannah Choi 33:08yeah, yeah. I that always makes me think it means I think in every conversation that I've had for this podcast, that talk, the idea of confidence has come up, and how working on executive skills really can boost your confidence. And for her, hearing that about her metacognition probably had a positive impact on her on the other areas that she feels like she's weak in. Right,Peg Dawson 33:34right. Yeah, I think it did is if you're good at metacognition, you can get planning eventually. Is such a huge component of metacognition and planning. So, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.Hannah Choi 33:46So that makes me think about this idea of, like, you know, just going back to parents in their own kids. And I feel like so much of the information out there articles that you read, and, you know, knowledge that's out there is for kids, and executive skill development, because of course, kids, kids frontal lobes are still developing, you know, we just, they just, they're not there yet. But, you know, just because, like you said before, just because we're adult adults doesn't mean our, you know, we're like, perfect and everything. So for parents that have areas that they struggle with, like, do you recommend that they work on their own along with their children's executive skill development? I've had some parents do that very effectively. And both parents was sort of the parent will share the profile with the kid. And whether it's a, they're struggling with the same executive skill or a different one. If they both agree, they're going to tackle whatever their challenges then the kid feels like, they're not the only one, you know, putting in all the work here. And several years ago, I saw a kid from the UK. And I had met the coach who was working with him at the time in the UK, but they spent their summers in Maine. And so he arranged, they arranged for the kid to come and be evaluated by me. He was 14. So I had him take the executive skills questionnaire. And he said, have you given this to my dad? Because the dad was the one who brought up? And I said, No, I said, Oh, I want my dad to take this. And so that ended up being a great conversation when I had, at the end of the session brought the data and then they could talk about because the kid and if you ask any kid, they can probably tell you, once they understand exactly what the dad strengths and weaknesses are, oh, yeah, but I do have, you know, a piece of advice that I give. And when I first started giving this to parents, or anybody in my workshops, I thought it was kind of whimsical, I thought, well, it's worth a shot. I don't know whether this will work or not, but I'll throw it out there. And so when I started building into my workshops, is when I consider the perfect intervention for executive skills. And this really helps adults who are dealing with their own executive skill challenges, because I again, I get that question from parents all the time, "I have the same issues. You know, I'm not consistent. I can't, I can't maintain an intervention over time. So what can I do?" So here's the perfect intervention. The perfect interventions for executive skill development, and there are two pieces to it is one that takes no more than five or 10 minutes a day, and that you're willing to do forever. So those two, okay, those two go hand in hand, if it took more than five or 10 minutes today, you couldn't keep it up. And I can guarantee you it won't take forever. But I can also guarantee you, it'll take longer than you think it should. But that doesn't mean you double the amount of time. No, it really. And so once I started talking about that, then I had all these parents sharing who they are, you know, I put in place a getting ready for school routine with my kid on the spectrum. I started in first grade. He's now in seventh grade. He's following that routine completely independently. It took six years, but he's there. And then I thought about how I got my own. So I have a son with ADHD, who's he's now in his 40s. But I thought about how I got him through high school. And that was every day when he came home from school, I asked them two questions, what do you have to do when you're going to do it? It was a five minute conversation. And as an adult. That's exactly what I ask my son every day, he still tells me that's how he basically plans his day, what do I have to do when will I do it? And so it really, if you if you're willing to play the long game, and you're willing to be patient, so now we're going back to patients again, then putting in place an intervention that you consistently follow? Five minutes a day for as long as it takes. It pays off. It really does. It reminds me of I'm I'm also reading at the same time, Atomic Habits by James Clear, and he is he says, you know, if you just like Do 1% every day, when you're eventually just gonna get better at it. Yeah. So yeah. Reminds me of that. Yeah, it doesn't have to be some grand, huge overhaul. And in fact, we you know, if you do the grand, huge overhaul, it's not sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. It might look pretty for a day but and then you're gonna feel bad about yourself. So not being able to do it.Peg Dawson 38:27I mean, looking back on my own sons who neither were a great students in middle school in high school. With each them, I put in one relatively elaborate system to get them to change, you know, it's like offering them rewards for oh, I remember my younger son was starting his homework before nine o'clock at night, and not complaining about it. And if he could go for six weeks, and I gave him a point for each one of those, and we could go for six weeks, if he had this many points, and he could buy the video game he wanted. That worked really well. I could never redo it, though. I remember when he was like a junior in high school, I said, I said, Can we work out a system where you know, you can earn something you want? I mean, you said, Mom, I gotta want to do it myself. I mean, that just basically. So can you say that I had to back off. You're saying you can't force me. I gotta want to do it myself. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 39:29Well, that's great that he, I mean, that shows right, his metacognition.Peg Dawson 39:34Yeah, absolutely. And he knew what worked and what didn't work for him.Hannah Choi 39:37Do you have any questions for me?Peg Dawson 39:39So how long have you been coaching?Hannah Choi 39:41I started coaching in 2017 with Beyond BookSmart. Yep. And I had like a kind of a similar job before. I worked at a community college and the Office for Students with Disabilities and I helped kids take advantage of the services that they were that were, you know that were or given to them for whatever accommodations that they needed. So that's where I discovered my love for working with college kids.Peg Dawson 40:05Right, right. Yep. And so over the years since you started coaching, what? How has that practice evolved for? You mean? What is?Hannah Choi 40:19That's such a great question. And I know exactly how it has evolved, I have learned to trust the process. And I have learned to trust my relationship with the client. And that, and that if they trust me, and if I just relax and let go and let it happen naturally, that's where we're going to have the most success. And I remember when I first started coaching, feeling like, I put this pressure on myself to like, you know, teach a new, new strategy in each session, and you know, and like, have some kind of evidence of, you know, of improvement. And now I realize, looking back on it, like I was looking for really grand evidence, and all I needed was these little tiny, tiny shifts that are actually the nuggets of gold that you're looking for. And that's when you know, okay, now I can maybe push a little harder and ask for something else. And I think I was just expecting it to go faster, even though I had learned and I knew for my own kids and for myself, that, that it takes a really long time. And that it's not like a It's not like a switch that happens. So I would say like, for me, mostly, that's what I've learned, which has been good for my mental health, because I used to really put a lot of pressure on myself with my clients. If I didn't feel like my clients were making enough progress quickly enough. And, and so I'm much more relaxed now as a coach, and I think I'm a better coach. Right?Peg Dawson 42:02Yeah. I mean, that was the one of the dangers of wanting to see that kind of progress in whoever you're coaching is that that person feels that that pressure as well.Hannah Choi 42:15They pick up on it. In my experience, that's when they start lying. Did you follow your plan? They said no, yeah. No they didn't. They just didn't want to make you feel bad. Yeah, that's right. I shouldn't admit this. But one of my first clients, he lied to me and his parents for an entire semester that he was doing well in school. Yeah. He got a D and one class, but the rest he was failing. So it was Yeah, yeah, you've really you. You have to suss it out. Yeah. And a lot of that comes down to just trust.Peg Dawson 42:56I think one of the coaches that I trained in that I get together with frequently via zoom, and she says, she, one of the things she makes clear to kids is this is a no blame zone and a no shame zone. So yeah, if you communicate that in a way that the kid trusts that, that you're honest about that, then they're going to be able to come in and say, Yeah, I was intending to do that. But andHannah Choi 43:19so that's what I started doing. I think probably around the time that that that happened with that student, I started telling every time for the first few few sessions, just to remind them that this is a judgment-free zone. And I And if I ask a question, it comes out of completely out of curiosity. No judgment. Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no judgement at all. Yeah. And it's hard. I think, like, inside, right, we just naturally judge people, we have to for survival. You know, it's like a thing that we've just evolutionary, like, have done like, for 1000s of years. And I think that it's, you just like, we know, internally, we're judging people, whether we want to or not, that bias is just there. And so we know that we are doing that. So we kind of might assume someone else is doing it. And so it's hard. It's hard to learn to trust someone that you can really be honest with them. Especially like if there's an age difference, right. Oh, like, are you just another parent? Or can I actually truly just not that they can't trust their parents? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's just so important. And I guess with any relationship, right? Any relationship that you develop with anybody is developing that trust. Cool, well, what if you could choose one thing for people to take away from all the work that you've done over the course of your, your career? What would it be? If it's possible to choose one?Peg Dawson 44:55But I guess the message I want people to understand it. And this may be more for teachers and parents, but I think there's some overlap there is that executive skills are the skills that support learning. And if we don't peel away the the surface learning to understand the skills that require that are required to get there, then we're missing the opportunity to help kids understand the learning process better. And so that combined with it takes time progress is measured. Yeah those are the two things.Hannah Choi 45:40And that's, that's a really hard, it's, it's hard, I think. I mean, I would, if I could guess I bet that's that, the biggest part that's hard for people is that making any kind of change, I mean, if you even if you're just exercising, like I'm training for a half marathon right now, and it takes I was take a break in between races, and he's take so long to get back into it. And, and even though I know, like, I know, because I've done it before I've done it so many times before I know I'm gonna get there is still so hard to just relax and say, It's okay, Hannah, it's gonna happen, you're gonna be able to run 13.1 miles. But it's hard to trust that. And so especially when it's your kids, you just want them to be successful in the world, and you don't have to worry about them, and you don't want to have to friction with them. And you just want them to be what be themselves in, you know, in in a successful way. And it's so hard to, to just trust that eventually that'll happen.Peg Dawson 46:44And I think it's also made harder by the fact that unfortunately, school emphasizes getting things right. As opposed to getting things. We're not focusing on learning. We're, we're focusing on passing tests, and not making mistakes. And we all know, that's not the way you learn, you learn from your mistakes. And so, and I, my guess, is if we've looked at all the education systems out there, the ones where, where kids are at the top in terms of how they're acquiring academic skills, it's those where that's what teachers are emphasizing then. So for instance, I'm sure in Japanese schools, they might teach math by giving kids a tough math problem to do that, just at the limits of their understanding of them. They put them together in a group and the kids say, Okay, now solve this problem. And they check in on them periodically, but there's no stress that you got to get it right. It's, can you figure out the process? And it's just, I think that's one of my biggest issues with how American education and it's not just American education and a lot of education system,Hannah Choi 47:55if that's what you know, because yeah, yeah, my, my kids are both going through standardized testing right now, like today, as we speak, and it's really stressful for them. And they're both good students, and they don't find school difficult. But the the, the action of being tested, is stressful, especially for my son, he is very concerned about getting it right. And I've, we've told him so many times, you know, we don't care, we you know, we don't if it's if it's stressful for you, we don't want it to be stressful for you, you just go in and do your best. And, you know, it's hard for him. And that just just kills me to, to see them going through that. So do you have anything that you're excited about that you'd like to share with everyone?Peg Dawson 48:41No, I just, I guess, I mean, I'm 72 years old. So the question is, when am I going to retire? My husband's already retired. So he keeps talking to me about something, when are you going to retire? And and I guess, the fact that I'm still working just tells you that I'm excited about what I'm doing, because I don't need to be working. I mean, I am planning for retirement, and I am trying to think about so how, how can what I've done continue without me so that when people write and say, Can you do this? I say no, I'm retired now.Hannah Choi 49:19But I have this fabulous person who can do it for me. So yeah, yeah. Well, what a legacy you're you'll you'll leave when you are able to transition into that period of your life. So and where can our listeners find you and your work?Peg Dawson 49:34So we have a website smartbutscatteredkids.com. And so there are a number of resources on that website, as well as links to some trainings I've done. There's a parent, a one hour, maybe a little over that. When our parent presentation that I do that was recorded when I was in San Diego last year, which they didn't.Hannah Choi 49:57I watched that! I thought it was GREAT. I loved it! Peg Dawson 50:00Didn't they do a nice job with editing it?Hannah Choi 50:02They really did. It was so good. It was classy classy production. And you looked great. And you sounded great. It was really interesting. Peg Dawson 50:13And in fact, if possible, I'd like to put a link from my website to Beyond BookSmart for this interview, so that because that's another way that people could could discover.Hannah Choi 50:25Yeah, for our listeners, I'll put everything. I'll put everything in the show notes. So you can find Peg and everything that she's done, and definitely watch that presentation that she's talking about. Thanks. High quality good stuff. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much.Peg Dawson 50:40Thank you. This was fun.Hannah Choi 50:44And that's our show for today. I really hope you found something useful in my conversation with Peg. And I hope that you learned something that you didn't know about executive function skills. I'm truly so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen, be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. And if you have a minute, please help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends. Thanks for listening!

Show Summary: "Healing isn't a destiny. It's a journey." Have you ever had Lyme disease? Or do you know someone who had it? Unfortunately, Lyme is more prevalent than we realize. And some people are not even aware that they have it. Such is the case with our guest for this episode. It took her almost fourteen years to find out that she had Lyme disease, setting aside the daily fatigue and headaches she was experiencing. So today, one of my golden babies, Ashley Church, who is now one of our private coaches at Provo Health, is joining us for this episode. She was my note-taker before she finally graduated to become a coach. Listen as she shares her healing journey with us and affirm that healing takes time. Ashley is proof of our mission in helping everyone to be their healing champions as she advises all of you listeners to be your health advocate. No one cares as much about your health as you do. So be inspired by Ashley as she tells about her healing journey from having Lyme disease to being a Provo Health coach. Exceptional Highlights: Antibiotics are not the way to attack Lyme disease. Give your body what it needs to heal you.There's always help; there's always light; there's always hope. For me, it was the hope and the desire to have my future.Show Highlights: What symptoms did you experience that led to Lyme disease?Ashley 4:39More headaches, and they were pretty constant every single day. I was taking Advil to get through the day every day. Also, having low energy. I couldn't wake up early. If the listeners here had Lyme disease and were sitting in consultation with you, what would you tell them?Ashley 12:50I would probably want to see how severe their symptoms are and what symptoms they have. What are cavitations?Ashley 21:04Cavitations are actually pockets on teeth that hold a lot of bacteria. And they can harbor things like Lyme and infection from when your teeth are pulled. Are there any other lessons you feel it's taught you along the way?Ashley 28:53One thing I would say is, "Never give up." I mean, there were many times when I felt I was done. But I had some amazing support from my family and friends that I never felt I was in a really scary place. Important Links: Spore-based Probiotics episode with Dr. Kiran KrishnanProvo Health Team

Show Summary: "Healing is a marathon, not a sprint."Do you know someone who has autoimmune diseases? There are about 110 types of autoimmune diseases, and most people who have them are not aware that they have them. Checking your food intake and what foods you should avoid eating can help you heal these diseases.We have Dr. Donna Mazolla, a.k.a Dr. Autoimmune Girl, to discuss elimination diets and autoimmune diseases with us for this episode. For someone who has had Hashimotos for several years, Donna is the perfect person who can tell us what works and what does not work with the food we eat. Plus, she is a doctor of pharmacology! She shares all she knows through her book "Immunity Food Fix." Donna teaches people what she has been practicing. Like us, she realized that there is a gap in health care that other medical professionals do not address that much - nutrition and lifestyle. Instead, they prescribe medication and let their patients go about their way without being adequately advised or educated about what they should eat or avoid. So please tune in to this episode and share it with as many people as possible to be your healing champion by simply addressing your nutrition and making the necessary lifestyle changes. If we could do it, you can do it, too! We are here for you. Exceptional Highlights: No wonder people are so traumatized by food because all these quote-unquote experts are all yelling at each other, saying each other is wrong.There is a science to back up that food will make or break you.We need to figure out which buttons to push and which foods to eat to help our bodies heal themselves.Show Highlights: Can you add something about the effects of antibiotics on our microbiome?Donna 13:33It's impacted our immune system; it's decreased our oral tolerance. We see a rise in allergies as a result.Suppose people are starting to incorporate food after an elimination diet. What are the effects that they should look out for?Donna 18:38It could be fatigue, something you're not even thinking about. But like your typical bloating, diarrhea, or gas, these let you know something is going on with the gut. What about these people that can't even handle vegetables?Donna 21:10For those people, the question is, have you removed all inflammatory foods first? And now you're eating vegetables and can't tolerate it. We have to give it time. Can we get your opinions on the different types of elimination diets?Donna 32:50I am a pro vegetable and not vegan or vegetarian. I'm not anti-animal protein. But I recognize the need, like the phytochemicals present in plants. Looking at Keto and being a carnivore, I'm against these diets because of the disruption and the gut microbiome. Important Links:The Gutsy Health Podcast IGDr. Donna Mazzola's IGSpore-based Probiotics Episode with Dr. Kiran KrishnanHeadaches and Migraines Episode with Dr. Meg MillDr. Donna Mazzola's WebsiteImmunity Food Fix Book

*Mental Health & ADHD/Executive Dysfunction section starts at 20:21*When we talk about Executive Function, we also need to talk about mental health. Taking care of our mental health is important for everyone and studies show that there is a connection between executive function challenges and mental health diagnoses like depression and anxiety. There are many, many ways that executive function challenges affect mental health. In today's episode, I'll explore just two of these: emotional regulation for kids and the impact that ADHD can have on kids' mental health. I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with two guests to talk about these interesting topics. Sherry Fleydervish joined me from Chicago and Sean Potts joined me from Brooklyn, NY. Sherry is a child and family therapist who is trained in many therapeutic areas, including theraplay, dyadic developmental therapy, art and play therapy, and cognitive behavioral therapy. Her areas of expertise and interests include anxiety, depression, ADHD, parent support, family transition, divorce, and separation support, trauma, attachment issues, and social and relational skills. Learn all about her work with Best Self Inc. here. Sean is one of Beyond BookSmart's earliest coaching clients as well as the producer for this podcast. Now, as an adult, Sean has developed a passion for raising awareness around ADHD and is especially interested the increased risk for mental health disorders and the societal stigma associated with ADHD. He uses that passion every day as a driving force in the work he does as Beyond BookSmart's Marketing Specialist Check out some of that work on BBS's Facebook page and blog. ---Here are some readings and resources for topics that came up in my conversation with Sherry & Sean.You can find more about Sherry and her work at https://www.bestselfinc.com/Mental Health and Executive Function Challenge ConnectionExecutive Functions in Students With Depression, Anxiety, and Stress SymptomsWhat Should You Treat First? ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?Executive Functioning: How Does It Relate To Anxiety?Academic Anxiety: How Perfectionism and Executive Dysfunction Collide3 Ways ADHD Makes You Think About YourselfSelf-Regulation and Co-RegulationExecutive Function & Self-RegulationWhat is Co-Regulation? | Best Self Family PostDeveloping Kids' Executive Function, Self-Regulation SkillsHow Can We Help Kids With Transitions? - Child Mind InstituteContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. When we talk about executive function, we also need to talk about mental health. Taking care of our mental health is really important for everyone. And studies show that there is a connection between executive function challenges, and mental health diagnoses like depression and anxiety. There are many, many ways that executive function challenges affect mental health and vice versa. And in today's episode, I'll explore just two of these: emotional regulation for kids and the impact that ADHD can have on kids' mental health. I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with two guests to talk about these interesting topics. Sherry Fleydervish joins me from Chicago and Sean Potts joined me from Brooklyn, New York. Sherry is a child and family therapist who works with infants through adults, and also supports the parents and families of these children. She is trained in many therapeutic areas, including theraplay dyadic, developmental psychotherapy, mindfulness, sandtray, and cognitive behavioral therapy. Her areas of expertise include anxiety, depression, ADHD, parent support, and family transition, divorce and separation support, trauma, attachment issues and social skills. And Sean is one of Beyond BookSmart's earliest coaching clients. And now as an adult, Sean has developed a passion for raising awareness around ADHD, and is especially interested in the increased risk for mental health disorders, and the societal stigma associated with ADHD. He uses that passion every day as a driving force in the work he does as Beyond BookSmart's Marketing Specialist, and it's the reason why I thought he'd be a great fit for today's topic. I also need to mention that Sean is my partner in crime for this podcast, he does all the editing and all the sound, which is good, since I can't stand that kind of stuff. So without him, this podcast would not exist. Thanks, Sean. Okay, so keep listening to hear my conversation with Sherry and Sean, and learn some great strategies to support both our own emotional regulation and that of our kids, and to hear how ADHD impacts the mental health of students, and how we can help support kiddos with ADHD. Okay, now on to the show. So today, I would love to talk about two topics that are really, really important to me as a coach, and also to, I think everyone, the first is emotional regulation. And that's how we manage our emotions. And emotional regulation can be challenging for everybody. And it is especially challenging for kids, because they don't have a lot of experience, yet their executive functions are not completely developed yet. And they just haven't had a lot of opportunities to practice emotional regulation. So I'd love to talk about some, you know, ideas that you have shared from your perspective. And and then I would love to cover the idea of the connection between executive function and mental health. Because we see that a lot that there's a lot of challenges by people who have executive function challenges, often go hand have some also some mental health challenges along with them. So if we could cover those two topics today, that'd be fabulous.Sherry Fleydervish 03:48Absolutely. You know, something that I talk about, every single family session, every child session intake is just emotion regulation. You know, a lot of times I've see, I start my intakes with parents, and they come in, and they tell me what's been going on. And oftentimes I hear, you know, these behaviors are showing up and these labels and these things that kids are experiencing, and my mind immediately goes to regulation and where they got in their, in their ability to do that, and their ability to regulate and then the parents ability to help them co regulate to, which is something I talked about. But all of that comes from a deeper lower part of our brains that take so much time and years and experiences and everything to start to build. And so that's that's oftentimes regulation is oftentimes the first place that I really start with families.Hannah Choi 04:43And I feel like so many of us, at least in the generation that is old enough to have kids and then then the generation before us. There wasn't a lot of education about about self-regulation, emotional regulation, and especially co-regulation. I think, maybe even a lot of our listeners don't know what co-regulation is. Would you like to explain that a little bit? Sherry Fleydervish 05:03Yeah, absolutely. So what I often say is that we are sharing our nervous systems, especially with our children. And when they're little and they're babies, we're really doing everything for them, we're rocking them to regulate them, even when they're in our bellies, we're rocking them, we're regulating that, then we're feeding them, we're watering them, we're doing all of those things for them. And then as children get older, we start to help them use build their own ability to regulate themselves, but you know, even, we're even co-regulating with, with our high schoolers to, you know, instead of, maybe before you would pack their lunch for them, but, you know, now you're just putting things in the right spot in the, in the fridge for them instead. And so all those little pieces are helping them regulate, you know, instead of maybe holding them, you're just sitting next to them while they do their homework now, instead of really being there, but it really is just sharing your nervous system and sharing your regulation with your child. And I'm also always, you know, talking about how different energy states require a different type of regulation. So if you have a child who was really upset and sad, you can mirror that with your body, you can get lower with them, and you can talk to them at a lower level and put your hand on your on their shoulder. But if you have a child who's really angry and frustrated, "My brother just ripped apart my favorite stuffed animal!" and, you know, I, I invite parents to match that same energy with their child and get bigger and meet their effect and just tell them how frustrated it is that they this just happened. That's co-regulating, it's showing through your body through or voice through your aspect that I hear you, I see you. And then a child begins to be able to regulate themselves as we, as we kind of practice and learn and model that.Hannah Choi 07:03So so much of, of helping our kids is learning first, for ourselves what we need to do to help ourselves and then through that we can help our kids.Sherry Fleydervish 07:16That conversation invites a lot to understand our own systems, you know, I help parents understand what comes up for them as their child moves through different things that maybe, maybe transitions are really difficult. And so I invite them to wonder what does that feel like for you to when that is happening. And so the first step is regulating yourself, you can't help you can't help your child you can't help them regulate when you are in that state of dysregulation as well. So it really starts with just taking, taking a deep breath, and being you know, taking care of yourself first.Hannah Choi 07:52And it's so hard to do that. It's so hard to, at least I personally find myself feeling like well, that whole idea of putting your putting that mask on the oxygen mask on first, it's so hard in the moment, or just in the busyness of life, it's so hard to remember to do that. And, and that's, that's why I am always I think anybody who knows me, well, I'm always talking about self-care. And, and I think part of it is because I'm trying to remind myself like Hannah, you have to do that too. But it's so important to to take care of ourselves first. Sherry Fleydervish 08:28I think even just hearing that it's okay to pause and put your mask on. And model that's, that's a modeling moment. You know, mom needs a break, mom needs 10 seconds before she can figure out how to help solve this problem. That's, that's everything. And your kiddo feels like they can do that, too.Hannah Choi 08:43You mentioned transitions. And I know that's a really big, that's something that a lot of our clients find challenging. And I just know kids in general, and even adults can find transitions challenging. What what do you suggest for parents or ourselves? If we struggle with transitions? Do you have some kind of go to strategies that you'd like to suggest?Sherry Fleydervish 09:08Transitions are so so hard, and especially ones where we're moving from something that we're really enjoying and really liking and maybe can be regulating for us too, for example, you know, if your kid's playing video games that is actually really regulating and then they're, we're asking them to move to homework or dinnertime or whatever it might be - bedtime, that isn't so regulating for them. And so, just being mindful of that piece, too, when we're supporting our kids through a transition, it's just how you're approaching it and your own. You know, I talked about expectations a lot - the expectations that you don't even realize you have as you're leading up to a transition, what you want it to be like, even if you're expecting it to be abrupt because maybe it has been in the past and then tying in this topic of Co-regulation, how can you use yourself to help your kid get from A to B? Does, you know if the video game is super regulating, can you come in and say, "Okay, you have five minutes left. And then as soon as you turn off, we're going to pass the ball outside. Or as soon as you turn off, we're going to go, you can pick up your favorite game, and we're going to play it for five minutes before we move to dinner", or get out the house or whatever it is. You are offering yourself up to play into be almost like the little train to get from regulation to task that I don't really like so much. But just use yourself as a tool to do that. And that's in the moment. And then before it's trying to set up for structure and as much as as much as you can you have a plan for how often or how long you're going to be playing each game or doing each activity or whatever it might be, so that your child feels as as prepared as they possibly can for the next for the next things.Hannah Choi 11:08Transitions are so hard. I see just parents struggling with them on the playground after school. When the kids are they've come out of school and they're going on to the playground to play and then it's time to go. And I often hear parents say like, "Oh, I don't want to tell them it's time to go because then I know what I'm going to have to deal with". So what could a parent do in a situation like that?Sherry Fleydervish 11:34Oh my gosh, notice that notice that dread? Notice that worry? You know Where's where's this gonna go today? Are we gonna get to the car, are we gonna have a dragging, screaming kid to the car. Just be mindful of that. First off, take a deep breath before you're going. And then how? How can you enter that same playful state that they're in right out there on the playground? They're playing. They're having so much fun. And then they hear time to go right now? What if it was, "Hey, this seems like such a fun game of tag. Can you go and tag whoever it is that's next. And then we're going to head out". It's - you enter, join in the play join in even if it's for a minute, I bet that that minute ends up being more worth it than the potential 10 minutes or the potential screaming, you know, just join in notice what they're playing and then kind of come out together to the car.Hannah Choi 12:40That's so smart. Seems like co-regulation is I mean, it probably doesn't work every time I imagine. But if it sounds like it's a great strategy to practice a lot.Sherry Fleydervish 12:51It might not, you might get, "I don't want to I don't want to go. This is too much fun. I don't want to leave". You can still co-regulate, right? You could say "Yes, I know you're having so much fun. And you don't want to go to piano. You think piano sucks. And this is so much more fun". That's still you're still entering and you're still like meeting them for that really frustration. But we do have to go so like I'm, I want to help you I want to problem solve right now how to make this easier.Hannah Choi 13:19So sure, that read that makes me think of this idea that we should just stay calm, you know, and so that kind of makes me think maybe we shouldn't just stay calm. Maybe we like you said we need to meet them where they are. And it feels a little strange for me to think Oh, wow. Okay, yeah, to get angry with them. But, but then it really shows them that we understand where they are. Sherry Fleydervish 13:43I hear this so often, it's um, I tried to stay so calm, I stay so calm, I have, you know, me as calm as I can with my voice and all of these pieces. And that's incredible if you can, if you can be there. But that idea of mirroring your child's emotion, emotional state, it's okay to not be cool as a cucumber, you know, because if you hear a child to saying, you know, I'm just I'm so so sad. I'm so bummed out or I'm so angry and I'm so frustrated. Kind of like what we said earlier, it's, it's okay to meet them with that with that same emotion it shows mom and dad or whoever feels can feel that way too. SoHannah Choi 14:30I remember my mom when I first started working with kids as a teenager, my mom gave me some advice. And she said, when a kid is upset or just won't stop talking to you just say back to them what they have said to you, just repeat back to them what they've just said to you. And and it's and they just sometimes just want to be heard. So this idea of it's almost like this idea of co-regulation like they you are acknowledging their feelings. You're not You're telling them through your behavior that these feelings are okay. Is that would you say that's an accurate description?Sherry Fleydervish 15:07I love that I love that advice so much because it just shows a child it shows your child that it's it is okay to have all of these feelings. And later on, you know, addressing the behaviors and the way that you express them. That's that's a different story. But you you're modeling that it's okay to have have all of those different emotions, and they're welcome here, too.Hannah Choi 15:28Yeah great, thanks, Mom!! One time I was in a store and there was this little boy and he was probably three or four. And he kept saying he was with his grandparents and he kept saying over and over and over again. Like, I want Mommy, I want Mommy and they were they were yah. Yah, yah, yah, yah, yah, yah, yah, you'll see her later. Mommy's busy or whatever, and I want mommy he kept saying, I went up to him, and I said, you want your mommy? He said, Yeah. And then he stopped yelling about it. Like, see, you just need to say back to him, He just wants someone to acknowledge that.Sherry Fleydervish 16:11Sometimes we just we miss that piece. And, and, and it's almost out of the moment, it seems so simple or from, from that, from the observer, you saw that, like, that kid just wants his mom, you just want your mom so bad. You're so you just miss her. You know, and it stepped him right? Back into right back into it like, well, this adult just heard me okay.Hannah Choi 16:35But I guess it shows that when you are the parent or the caregiver in the moment, it's hard to, to step out and say, and like look at it, like an observer. Look at it like that crazy lady who just talked to my grandkid.Sherry Fleydervish 16:52It's a lot easier not in the moment to do that. Yeah.Hannah Choi 16:55So do you have any strategies for when you are in the moment, and it's hard, and you're having trouble getting out of it as as, as an adult.17:03The first step, it's just it's noticing, and maybe taking a step back, and maybe even getting lower getting on your child's level. And just even if, if it just means, you know, just looking at them in the eye and saying, you're just, you know, you're so worried about, you know, the test that you have tomorrow at school, if your kid just won't stop talking about I have to study I have to do this, I have to do this, I have to prepare this way. And my my advice is, is not so much to focus on the behavior, but to focus on the emotion underneath of what your child is saying. And just get curious with them, they might not be able to tell you how they feel. But they're communicating through even that little boy in the grocery store was probably feeling worried or missing, or just wanted, wanted his mom. And that's an opportunity for us to say and wonder, I wonder if you're feeling worried right now you don't know where Mommy is. Or I wonder if you're just nervous for your test tomorrow, we can pull the emotion out of the over and over and over talk that we hear. Notice maybe what it's bringing up for you, that might be the same feeling that your kids feeling, and isn't able to communicate it.Hannah Choi 18:22Being able to label your emotions is so important. And I feel like I and I think that is a skill that goes along with emotion with executive function. And just sort of that emotional awareness. And that's a big part of emotional regulation is labeling your emotions? Do you have any strategies for all ages for little kids up to adults for helping to figure out what you're feeling or maybe helping someone else to figure out what they're feeling? Because I imagine a lot of our coaches might need to help their clients figure out what they're feeling and maybe the client doesn't know what they're feeling, and they're hoping to figure that out.Sherry Fleydervish 19:04I always say as the whether you are the that whatever adult you are that's in that child's life, or that teenagers like it's, it's okay to guess and it's okay to guess wrong. You know, if you're noticing that a child is something just changed, you can just say, Oh, I just noticed something changed now. What happened for you, but what's going on right now, and it might not come out as a feeling. It might be I'm thinking this or you can you can still use that to be curious about the moment and if they can't connect to what they're what they're feeling, then maybe you can help them connect with what's going on in their body and I invite all ages, clients of all ages to do that. And if they can't express to me what they're feeling then I asked them to just draw it you know, can you pick a color can you draw what that what that feeling feels like in your body? Can you identify it somewhere inside write up your body right now. Or where that change just happened. It doesn't have to be through communication through through verbally, we can find other outlets. And maybe it's just a quick journal for a teenager or for us to just, I don't really know what's going on. But I'm just going to write for a minute and see what kind of comes out.Hannah Choi 20:20So something that that comes up a lot for, for us as coaches and I think just us as humans, and is what I talked about in our first episode is this idea of failure. And I the emotions that go along with that, and how I think with for people with executive function challenges, we, you know, people can often feel like failures, and there's a lot of emotions there and anxiety that might come up. And do you do have any, what's your insight on that, like the connection between between executive function and feelings, emotions,Sherry Fleydervish 21:05To follow up on the conversation about failure that you bring up is just how I loved the first episode that you released when we were talking about failure, because it is an it is a learning opportunity. But in the moment, it sure doesn't feel that way. It was really, really, really bad. And we have our own self beliefs that show up and start spiraling. And then we have all the messages that we've heard, you know, and if you're a kid or teenager struggling with some executive functions as well, then at school, you're probably oftentimes getting redirected and reminded and something wrong. And it's really hard not to internalize all of that, and end up with these negative thoughts about ourselves kind of swirling.Hannah Choi 21:56Well, I was just going to ask Sean, if he was comfortable sharing your own experience growing up, I know that you can relate personally to some of what Sherry was just saying, you want to share any of your experience.Sean Potts 22:09Yeah, I, I grew up most of my life, not really knowing I had had ADHD, it was one of those things where I would never really love going to school, it was very hard for me to sit still, it was very hard for me to like, have that sort of rigid, structured time. And that, you know, there was definitely a lot of friction that happens when I was younger around that, you know, and my parents noticed it at a fairly young age. And that led to me getting my first ADHD diagnosis tests when I was probably in fourth grade. And for whatever reason, I didn't get diagnosed at that time. So the problems continued to get worse. And until about halfway through middle school, when it was just sort of kind of hard to ignore the level of executive dysfunction that I was experiencing. I mean, I was a C/D student and I, you know, could never sit still, I was constantly getting kicked out of the classroom for whatever annoyance my 12 year old self was contributing to the classroom and distracting from learning. So I eventually at that age, was able to get diagnosed with ADHD. And that was sort of the beginning of my journey to treating it. I mean, of course, getting that diagnosis is huge. So from there, very soon after, you know, we started doing trials with medication. And also, I mean, that was a big component. But the biggest for me, it was definitely the executive function coaching. I got, I started working with a coach when I was at this point about 13, 14. You know, it took a little while, probably a year after my diagnosis before I really got moving forward with coaching. And for me, the transformation that happened was just like, was unbelievable. You know, within six months, I would say I was coaching, I was almost a completely different student I was, I was getting A's, which was the first time in my life and you know, I, there was no C's to be found on my report card. But more importantly, I rebuilt this confidence that I felt like I had lost from my years of going to school with untreated ADHD and just feeling like I was so different. That was huge. All of a sudden, I was like, teachers were complimenting me and I was, you know, like, the, my parents didn't have to nag me about homework. And I was feeling really confident in my abilities. And it was a big revelation. I think that confidence was sort of the the boost I needed moving forward. And now looking back, it's been what? Over 10 years since I had started coaching at this point. I'm 25 and the you know, I still am so grateful for the experience I had then, but I also recognize a lot of the problems that I had are not isolated incidents that I only experienced. I mean people all over the world have on untreated ADHD and the consequences of that can be really substantial, both on their mental health, their sense of self and their, you know, future prospects. So I'm have become very passionate about that. It's why I also love my job now working as Beyond BookSmart's Marketing Specialist, where I'm able to educate and spread awareness and advocate for a lot of the stuff that I struggled with and so many other people struggle with. So it's really cool to be here and talking to both of you about this, it's really, it's kind of an amazing, full circle to be here and be able to talk about it in the way that I am.Sherry Fleydervish 25:35Oh, that's, it's a really important piece to bring up. And I appreciate you sharing a little bit about that diagnosis coming a little bit later in adolescence too and what that must be like to experience or go through all of those years of school and not really understand what's different about how your brain works, and what your brain needs, until later on. And when we tie in mental health. And what we know about regulation, as well, is that we can't really access those thinking decision-making parts of our brains when we're not emotionally regulated. And so mental health, and if we're struggling with, even if it's stress, or anxiety, or depression, or whatever it might be our whole, we aren't able to plan and organize and our memories impacted. All those pieces that we need to be successful are, it just makes it harder to do that to get there.Hannah Choi 26:36And I imagine if you have grown up with this continuous message that you're hearing over and over and over again, that you're a failure, I mean, that maybe that's not the words they're using. But that's might be the message you're receiving. And imagine that that causes an amazing amount of stress on the brain, and then makes it even more challenging to access the executive function skills that that are already challenging.Sherry Fleydervish 26:59Absolutely. Yeah. You. It's, you know, those beliefs and your own perception of your own abilities, and can lead to some of those thoughts. And then that I can imagine how then having those feelings, and maybe leading to that either leading to avoidance or anxiety and not wanting to go to school or not wanting to go certain places where maybe those feelings have come up in the past and all of those things, kind of becoming comorbid and leading to each other.Sean Potts 27:33Yeah, absolutely. That's totally true. And I think, from my own experience, and from the research that's been done, I think there was something that said that by the time someone with ADHD turns 10, they've heard, I think, 10,000 more corrective messages than their neurotypical peers, which is, I find very sad, because that has a big ripple effect that impacts someone with ADHD's perception of themselves, first and foremost, but also of their capacity to do things and their confidence. And that, again, it has a ripple effect later in life that really impacts your mental health, your sense of self, your, again, your confidence. And I find that to be one of the saddest things about untreated ADHD is the fact that there's this coexisting mental health risk that people with ADHD also have. This leads me to my first real question, which is for you, Sherry. And it's that I'm very interested from the work that you've done, how you've seen some of the impact that that type of corrective messaging or other challenges that people with ADHD have, how that's manifested into mental health challenges, and the clients that you work with, would love to hear anything you have to say on that subject?Sherry Fleydervish 28:53I'm just thinking about the first thing that comes to mind is this environment, the environment of school, and what is expected of students, and how if you're not fitting in, maybe because of your ADHD diagnosis, executive functioning challenges, you're not fitting in with what is expected. And where I start, oftentimes, I do collaborate with schools, and I'll kind of talk about how I do that with my clients. But it's first starting with, with my clients and with their families, and recognizing that maybe these pieces of the environment actually aren't working with me or for my brain or for how I needed and so not necessarily adapting yourself in that moment, but I'm more wondering how can the teachers support the state that you have, and how can we adjust this expectation to fit in with what you what you need and talking with teachers and maybe even providing some education to about how oftentimes these students are experiencing redirections? And how can we You help them without constantly correcting correcting their behaviors. Instead, working with teachers has been really, really validating for for all the families and the clients that I work with. Because just knowing just a student going into school knowing that my teacher gets it, you know, she knows that I'm not trying to misbehave, or trying to be a bad kid, or whatever it is that had been coming up in the past is is not the case and knows that, you know, I'm trying to try and make the best that I can.Hannah Choi 30:36Have you noticed an increase in opportunities to work with teachers? Like are, is there more of a, are educators becoming more aware of kind of like a holistic approach to teaching?Sherry Fleydervish 30:52Absolutely, I, I really, really appreciate all of the teachers that I that I'm able to collaborate with, and that they're able to take the time to speak with me for, you know, 15, 20 minutes about one of their 30 students, and there is so much more social emotional learning going on in the classroom these days, it's truly incredible. And then that insight is so helpful for therapy, I use everything that the teachers are giving me all those observations, and bringing them into the room. And then life on on the flip side, as well, I feel that teachers are craving this piece and needing it and wanting to know what works best for each student. And they're so willing to implement it, because that's all they want is the success of their students. And then unfortunately, a lot of times, it's you know, what, if you're not supporting my kid, you're not doing what they need. And teachers are self-internalizing, to, like, I can't connect with this kid. And this is so hard, where, you know, I try so hard to just let teachers know you're doing the best that you can. And it's not, you know, some kids have different needs, and how, how open they are to having those vulnerable conversations, something I'm really grateful for.Hannah Choi 32:03And I imagine that there's also it also varies from school, depending on the, you know, the the leadership, and how aware of the leadership is of, of the importance of social emotional regulation, and just how important that piece is, I was just talking recently with our, my, my children's elementary school principal. And, and she was saying that, that for her, that's number one that's, that comes first. And the happiness of her teachers, you know, is just so important, and that she sees mental health as the most important thing first for everybody. I love. I just loved hearing that. And, and so that's great that you're seeing a lot of partnership between schools and mental health providers.Sean Potts 32:48Yeah, that's a great point, Hannah. And Sherry, I'm just curious, I just have a quick question for you, too. Do you find in the work that you do, that teachers have become more aware or perceptive to the, to these issues around ADHD and executive function than they were, let's say 10 years ago, because from my experience growing up, it really felt like, almost no fault of their own, teachers just didn't really know about these challenges, they didn't really know how to handle them. And because of that, oftentimes, you know, that would manifest into frustration or other areas like that. And I'm just, I'm just curious, if you think that's changed at all, in the last 10 years, in the work that you've been doing,Sherry Fleydervish 33:27I think, you know, to Hannah's point, it definitely depends on the administration, the higher-ups and what that, you know, the different environments and of each school as well. But overall, I definitely see teachers were invested on that mental health, emotional piece, I think, because there's so much more education out there on it, the stigma is decreasing, and so many more people are open to therapy, and there isn't this huge stigma on it, for lack of a better word, that it seeps into education, and it seeps into the teachers as well, you know, they are recognizing that they have their own things going on too, then it's so much easier to see and to connect with students who are also experiencing that. And so, I think overall, just it's, it's a lot easier to have those conversations and teachers are really willing to go there.Hannah Choi 34:27And breaking down that stigma around mental health and therapists and you know, taking care of our mental health is so important. And and why continuing to have these conversations and normalizing the idea of having a therapist normalizing the idea of, yes, everyone has executive function challenges like I am the first one to admit Yeah, I'm a coach and I love helping people and I also really struggle with in certain areas of executive function, and you and just just having these conversations and showing people You can talk about it, and it's okay. And talking about it is going to help, it will help, it'll help someone. Oh, that's great to hear that that conversation is happening more.Sherry Fleydervish 35:13And sometimes even just talking to teachers on that note of acknowledging your own challenges, whatever, whatever it might be, you know, that is such a great way to connect with your kid, you know, or your student, whoever it might be that, you know, I have a really hard time organizing my stuff to, here's something that has helped me or let's problem solve together, let's, let's work through this, let's figure out how to do it. Just that little piece, that little nugget, I'll have kids come in, and just tell me that they had this great talk with their teacher, and the teacher might not have even noticed that it was just this little piece little thing that they connected on, you know, I felt this way before. That's everything can be everything.Hannah Choi 35:50I see that a lot in my clients, whenever I you know, if I share something that I've really struggled with, I see, like visible relief on their face, like, wow, this person who's supposedly, you know, obviously, she knows something about executive function. She has struggled with it, too. And it's, yeah, it's so important to share that. Although it can be scary to be open about your own struggles, your own challenges. But I think it gives everyone else permission to think, oh, I actually feel that way too sometimes. And that's okay.Sherry Fleydervish 36:24I've worked through that over the years as a therapist, and how to self-disclose and learning how to disclose in a way that's really validating, and opening up this place of, of comfort. And it sounds like you're working on that same thing, too. And just showing, no, I have, I have these struggles, too. And I have these feelings. And these eyes open up so wide, some of these kids like, well, you know, adults that I model also experience struggles.Hannah Choi 36:56And it's okay. Something that reminds me of the idea, I can't remember what it's called, you probably know, the, the idea where you can feel two different two opposing feelings about the same thing at the same time. So the idea of replacing but with and then so that reminded me of Sean, your your experience growing up? And how, if you had, maybe you've received the message, like, you know, you, you are, you need to work on your organization or whatever, and you're, you're a great student, or you're a good, you know, you might have heard like, yeah, you're smart, but you, you know, need to work on this. And it kind of negates everything that was said first. So do you is that a strategy that you have shared with people? Or is that something that's coming up for you lately?Sherry Fleydervish 37:56I think that when you're when you're offering that opportunity of learning, right, that's usually what what we're doing, at the end of the day, when you're offering criticism, or you're offering your observation or whatever it might be, it's an opportunity for that other person to, to learn or in your mind get better at whatever that challenge is. And so we have to sandwich those pieces with, obviously, things that will make them feel proud of themselves and feel accomplished. And then when you're adding in these pieces of but you can do this next time or but whatever it might be, you know, here's the place, sometimes I'll say it like this, you know, your brain works really, really good at your, you have a great memory, you're very creative. And you have an ability to see all these little details that everybody else may not be able to see, but your brain at, or I don't even want to say but your brain has a little bit of a harder time with shifting attention from this to this or from whatever activity we're doing before to this one. And so maybe connecting with, with that actual piece that they're struggling with. And saying, you know, I'm here with you, I want to help. I want to help you strengthen this part of your brain, I want to help this not be so hard for you. And connecting with you know how hard it is for them feeling that comes up for them. And then working together to be kind of kind of like a consultant or that you know, how can we problem solve together?Hannah Choi 39:36And that makes me think of the idea of meeting someone where they are and and not asking more of them that they are then they're ready for and figuring out what their strengths are and how they can use those strengths. Sean, do you remember do you think have you ever thought about that concept of like, of, of you can be this One of the thing and the and the kind of opposite at the same time. And do you think that any of the messaging that you received growing up as a kid with ADHD, do you think if you had been told this message of you have challenges, and you're like, you're this and you're that instead of you're this, but you're that, do you think that would have made a difference for you?Sean Potts 40:21Oh, yeah, I think that would have made a huge difference. Particularly around when I was maybe nine years old, I remember I just had this one teacher that just never really understood or got me beyond the surface level challenges that she saw. And my mom often recalls this one parent teacher conference, or the typical one that would happen near the end of the year, where she, you know, once the conference with my dad, and you know, for the next 20, 30 minutes, my teacher just kept listening, all these negative things I was doing wrong. And eventually she just snapped and was like, "Do you have anything positive to say about my son?" And I think that's the best example of what it was really like for me being in the classroom every day with the teacher who saw me in that way. And I remember the next year, I had just such a an upgrade, where I had a teacher who immediately got me and saw some things that I didn't even see in myself, particularly around writing and creativity and some things that I've since learned that I really like. And the first time the parents come into the classroom, she mentioned how the first thing she said to my mom, when she came up to her was your son, so creative. He's such a great writer, and my mom tells me that she just started crying, because from her perspective, she had been hearing these negative things. And that was in stark contrast to what she knew about me. But at a deeper level, it was a stark contrast to it, I felt like I knew about myself, but I had really impacted me hearing all the things I had heard that year before from that one teacher, and some of the ways that she approached my challenges. So, you know, I really think it would have been a huge help to have had that earlier. And I think, you know, overcoming that was a huge part of my journey with my ADHD and the executive dysfunction I was experiencing. So no, absolutely, I think that would have made a huge difference. But I also do recognize that I was lucky to have had a teacher like that. And I also recognize that there are a lot of students who don't. And that's really, really sad and unfortunate, because I think anyone growing up with those types of challenges, needs to needs to meet somebody who can see you as an individual beyond just those sorts of those surface level challenges. So that you can realize that they're really just that surface level challenges. They're not some inherent character flaws that makes you you know, irrevocably messed up are different. They're a challenge that you have a whole lifetime to be able to overcome. But within that, you also have your strengths. And if you can have a teacher or somebody in your life who can help you realize that as someone who's young with ADHD, I think that is one of the most important ingredients for future success. And I again, I feel very lucky to have had that both in that teacher but also in my coach.Hannah Choi 43:07Yeah, and then what you said about confidence, I mean, that keeps coming up in every conversation that I have had, I feel like about everything recently, but especially these conversations for the podcast is it all seems to come back to confidence. And I imagine share, you see that a lot in both your clients and the parents of your clients. And that when you learn the skills, then you become more confident, which then helps in I imagine more ways than we will ever know for people.Sherry Fleydervish 43:39That is something that comes up in almost every intake, "I just I want my kid to feel more confident". And that shows up in every aspect, then up up their identity. And when I bring kids into my office, that is one of the first things that I work on is Where do you feel your best? Because these are not, kind of to Sean's point, these are not conversations or things that kids just inherently think about, you know, where my where am I? Where do I feel the best? Where do I feel strong? Where do I feel empowered, and confident? I bet you every kid you speak to will actually have an example of it. But then and offering your own piece if they don't you know why see how how focused you are whenever you're drawing in session. Or seems like you're three steps ahead when we're playing Connect 4 for every single week. Those are these little pieces where you're starting to notice other their notice there's their confidence when they might not even be seeing it themselves. And then using that to work towards some of the challenges and the pieces the things that they want to see different in their own lives. Even five year olds can tell me "I want to feel less of this feeling and more of this feeling". Like, Okay, great. Well, using the things that I know where you feel competent, we're going to, we're going to build on those pieces that feelings you don't want to have any more the challenges you're having at school. You're not just this one thing.Hannah Choi 45:17That reminds me of a conversation I had with my family recently, we went around the room, and we challenged each other to come up with five things that we were really good at, we had to say it about ourselves. It was so hard. It was such a hard thing to do. And I think you're right, we don't naturally think that way. And, and so how great to start off, you know, a conversation with someone that way i when I've meet for when I first meet a new client, I always ask them, so what are you good at? And it's it's hard to think that way. But it's important. Yeah. Great to have any. Sean, do you have any other questions for sherry?Sean Potts 45:59Yeah, so for the clients that you work with that have, let's say, anxiety and depression, but also have ADHD where these two, these two, or maybe even three things are existing simultaneously? How do you assess where to start treatment? Do you start with the ADHD? Do you start with the depression, anxiety, what's the focal point for treatment, and why?Sherry Fleydervish 46:23This happens often, right? Where a client is experiencing symptoms of different diagnoses, and maybe if it has comorbid diagnoses already coming into, into my session. And I start by just really, really, really, for a moment, putting aside that diagnosis, and noticing what is what is showing up the most, and what is the most symptomatic, and what is getting in the way most for this client. You know, if they have dual diagnosis, then maybe we need to first focus on that anxiety. And that is the most important and to figure out how to calm your mind calm, your body be a little bit more regulated. So then you can tackle some of those some of those pieces and those thoughts. And then we can dive into the other diagnoses or the other symptoms, you know, that the diagnosis is important and really validating for so many people. And for me, too, and it helps with treatment, but just kind of looking at a client and a person as a whole, and parsing out what is what is really the most important thing to support in the beginning. And everything else will eventually fall into place.Hannah Choi 47:36I find that to with coaching, you know, we always start off like, what's the thing that's the hardest for you right now? Like, what's the thing that's causing the most stress for you, and the thing that, that that's keeping you up at night, and just starting there, and you're right, I do find that the other things kind of end up naturally just getting involved and and leading into them. And then and then I do notice also that some of the challenges that came up, once we address those challenges, they actually were associated with some of the other stuff too. So then it makes the other stuff that used to be super challenging, also a little bit less challenging, just by working on this one other thing.Sherry Fleydervish 48:19I wonder if it's that they're building on their strengths, or they're starting to feel more competent in one area, and it kind of just even without even that conversation happening. It's just starting to morph into those other places. Other things.Hannah Choi 48:32It's pretty magical to see. So I imagine you have that experience as well. Yeah, thank you so much, Sherry. It's just so interesting to listen to you talk and and you have such a calm manner about yourself. I bet your clients just love talking with you.Sherry Fleydervish 48:51I loved this conversation, I feel like we just I wish it happened more. I wish these conversations were out there more just kind of normalizing therapy and parenting support. You know, it's just, you need the space, you know, and it's not just a drop-off service. I won't let that happen. I don't let that happen in my office. I make sure parents know from the beginning. I don't care if your, you know, your kiddos coming in here, five or 17. You know, I want to work together so that what's going on in my sessions is is coming and translating at home, too.Hannah Choi 49:32When when my kids were little I lived on Cape Cod and I have to give a shout out to Cindy Horgan at the Cape Cod Children's Place. It's a an organization that provides support for young families on the outer and lower cape. And my kids went or my Yeah, my kids went to preschool there and she approaches it like that when you. Yes, your kids go to school there, but she supports the parents so much and you could just make an appointment to go talk with her about any parenting challenges that you're having, and she just wrapped you right up in her, you know, figurative arms and just kept you, you know, gate gave you great strategies and and, and she was so great she was so open about her own challenges and just normalized everything so much. And just what you were saying right there just reminds me so much of that experience and I wish that every, every child, and every parent would have an opportunity to work with someone like Cindy Horgan. So. So thanks, Sherry, could you share with our listeners, where we where they can find you if they're interested in asking you more questions or learning more about you? Sherry Fleydervish 50:42Absolutely. So you can find my profile on bestselfinc.com. And you can also find a whole lot of other resources for children, teens, parents, families of logs, and resources are all on our website. You can even subscribe to our family newsletter. And we often will send blogs through that updates, anything that we've written.Hannah Choi 51:08I'll be sure to include all of that information in our show notes, too. So if you're listening, check out the show notes. And you can find it there too. Thank you so much to both of you for joining me today. I just I loved every second of this conversation. I feel like I could have talked for a whole nother hour, but maybe maybe another day.Sean Potts 51:28Absolutely. Thank you both. This has been such a pleasure to join this conversation.Sherry Fleydervish 51:33Thank you so much. It's been really wonderful to be here.Hannah Choi 51:38And that's our show for today. Thank you for joining me and taking time out of your day to listen, I really hope that you found something useful in today's episode. As Sherry said, it's so important to have these conversations about mental health, executive function challenges and parenting support. The more we talk about these so called stigmas, the more we normalize them, and by normalizing them more and more people will be able to access the support they need without negative reactions from the people around them. And here at Focus Forward, we will continue to have these important and sometimes difficult conversations in the hopes that we help someone, somewhere. If you are interested in normalizing these topics, please check out the show notes for some tips on how you can help. Oh, and hey, you can start off by sharing our podcast with your friends. If you haven't yet, subscribe to this podcast app beyond booksmart.com/podcast. You'll get an email about every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. Thanks for listening

Show Summary: "If we believe something is dangerous, it creates fear. If we believe something is safe, it creates calmness in our body."Mindset is everything. It is the way that we experience the world. Mindset is the very first item in the order of healing. Without the proper mindset, healing will take a longer time to happen. Our conscious and subconscious belief systems can build up or deteriorate our bodies. Whatever we think of happens to our bodies. That is why our special guest for today gives us a glimpse of the fantastic possibilities that could happen when you join us in the Gutsy Health Academy. Britt Lefkoe is one of the most amazing mindset coaches we've ever met. She continues the groundbreaking work of her father, Morty Lefkoe. Their belief-based and neuro-scientific approach to personal development has been of great help to individuals and organizations around the world. I have personally witnessed what she can do in an hour as she has helped Tristin change from being bent over and in a dark place to being upright and in a positive mood again. We are so honored and thrilled to have her on board with us as we open another season and continue our healing journey together at the Gutsy Health Academy. So please sit back and listen to this episode so that you can take a peek at what's possible for you and your loved ones to heal. ENROLL NOW IN THE GUTSY HEALTH ACADEMY & START BEING AN EXPERT OF YOUR HEALTH WITH JUANIQUE & GINA !Exceptional Highlights: Our health is oftentimes a reflection of our internal turmoil.Love and attention are tied to safety. When you're in that space of self-love and when you're in that space of flow, that is when you start to heal.GIVE BLDG ACTIVE SKIN REPAIR A TRY & USE THE CODE GUTSY FOR A 20% DISCOUNT + FREE SHIPPING GO TO BLDGACTIVE.COMShow Highlights: Why is mindset important?Britt 13:20I think that mindset is so important because it's about updating the software. Mindset is about getting rid of these old generalizations to see the world as it actually is instead of as you believe it to be.ENROLL NOW IN THE GUSTY HEALTH ACADEMY & START BEING AN EXPERT OF YOUR HEALTH WITH JUANIQUE & GINA !So how do you update an app that you haven't updated? Britt 16:50I think coming with curiosity to your childhood is important to understand that if our beliefs are developed during our first seven years, we can start to ask the questions like, 'What did I think I learned?', 'What did I feel about having a parent who was a worrier?' What happens when someone starts doing mindset work?Britt 19:31When you start doing mindset work, you start to have this superpower where these beliefs simply are midpoints; there's a step along the way. GIVE BLDG ACTIVE SKIN REPAIR A TRY & USE THE CODE GUTSY FOR A 20% DISCOUNT + FREE SHIPPING GO TO BLDGACTIVE.COMImportant Links:Britt Lefkoe WebsiteBritt Lefkoe's IGThe Gutsy Health Academy - Enroll Now!

Who is Aideen Ni Riada Wolpe?Aideen is an Intuitive Voice Coach, Mentor and Singer. She unlocks the mental and emotional blocks to being seen and heard so that you can speak up, Sing OUT and step forward in life with renewed faith in yourself.She blends her knowledge of psychology, spirituality and voice training to uncover the hidden treasure within your unique voice in music, life or business.Aideen can help you to sing & live joyfully by transforming your self doubt into self confidence!Key Takeaways1. We need to remember that we're here to serve others. And if they don't know about what you do or don't understand what you do and how you do it, because you don't speak up, you're letting a lot of people who could use your help down.2. Use positive affirmations to engage your thinking in positive thoughts - you become resourceful when you ask a positive question. So why is it becoming easier to use my voice? Why is my voice worthy of being heard? Why is my message important for my clients? Why is my confidence growing bit by bit?3. The reason that singing and music improves your confidence is because of the way our brains work. When musicians are tested on how they use their brains, it's actually been found that instead of just thinking logically in a linear way, you're more likely to actually problem solve with your whole brain, if you have studied music, or you've done singing.Valuable Free Resource or ActionA free online consultation and community for a free video series on building confidence in singing. All available on www.confidenceinsinging.comA video version of this podcast is available on YouTube : ————————————————————————————————————————————-Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletterFind out more about being a guest at : link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/beaguestSubscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcastHelp us get this podcast in front of as many people as possible. Leave a nice five-star review at  apple podcasts : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/apple-podcasts and on YouTube : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Itsnotrocketscienceatyt!Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:1. Download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/1pageIt's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way2. Join The Complete Approach Facebook Group :  https://TCA.fyi/fb Connect with like-minded individuals who are all about growth and increasing revenue. It's a Facebook community where we make regular posts aimed at inspiring conversations in a supportive environment. It's completely free and purposely aimed at expanding and building networks.3. Join our Success to Soar Program and get TIME and FREEDOM. : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Success-to-SoarIf you're doing 10-50k a month right now: I'm working with a few business owners like you to change that, without working nights and weekends. If you'd like to get back that Time and still Scale, check the link above.4. Work with me privatelyIf you'd like to work directly with me and my team to take you from 5 figure to 6 and multi 6 figure months, whilst reducing reliance on you. Click on https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/DiscoveryCall  tell me about your business and what you'd like to work on together, and I'll get you all the details._________________________________________________________________________________________________TranscriptNote, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)SUMMARY KEYWORDSsinging, voice, question, book, resourceful, people, confidence, consultation, brain, bit, clients, dad, speaking, spending, podcast, exercise, hear, called, mailing list, mindsSPEAKERSAideen Ni Riada Wolpe, Stuart WebbStuart Webb  00:21Hello, and welcome back to it's not rocket science by questions over coffee. I'm not actually with a coffee at the moment, I've got a nice glass of lime water he hasAideen Ni Riada Wolpe  00:37great minds think alike.Stuart Webb  00:38So I'm here with AD newbie other Walpa I'm not going to try and pronounce anything better than that. 18. So if I've got colleges, but ad is a well, what can I say 18. She's an intuitive coach and singing coach, and I'm really looking forward to this particular discussion, because I think a dean has got such a great personality and such a lot of stuff to say on this, I think is gonna be really great. So you're an indeed, mentor, singer, I'm hoping we're going to get into how to unlock mental and emotional blocks to being seen and heard, so that you can speak up I think, is really a great thing for people who are running businesses to know about so 18 Welcome to It's not rocket science, five questions over coffee. Thanks very much for being here.Aideen Ni Riada Wolpe  01:23It's an absolute pleasure. And thank you for having me. And I'm Hello to everyone watching.Stuart Webb  01:28Brilliant. So let's start with the sort of person that you try to help what's the what's the, the person you're trying to reach? And how do you sort of what are the problems they got? You're helping them to overcome?Aideen Ni Riada Wolpe  01:39Well, I think we've all been there. But um, my I, the people that I help generate a bit frustrated, right? Because they have something that they want to they want to do with their lives, but they feel that they're being blocked in some way. So what happened for me was someone asked me 18, what's your dream? And I said, Well, I want to be a singer, but I can't do that. So basically, I shut myself down. And the reasons were many buttons, mainly because my dad felt that, you know, a career in teaching or marketing would be far more suitable, and gave me some advice, you know, that, you know, money without music, they don't kind of go together. So I am I had this block myself. So I understand when people come to me that they have this kind of wish to do something with their voice, whether that is to to work in their business, or whether it's to sing. And because I do a bit of both. And if they can unlock that part of themselves that's holding themselves back, then they can actually start to step into the spotlight or put their business into the spotlight, so they can help more people.Stuart Webb  02:53Tonight, it's it's so often that I look back and I hear this from clients of mine, we're trying to please our parents and our parents have somehow managed to stop us doing something that they're trying their best to protect us from doing. And yet at the same time, they've managed to protect us from doing it in such a way that there's really ruined us. So it's not unusual to hear somebody turn around and say my dad tried to help me, but somehow messed me up. Yes. I know, as a parent, I do my level best not to completely mess up. But I guess eventually, in a few years time, my son will be here on a podcast saying well, it was great, but my send your candour on path. So I'm so glad to come out of it. So So what are the things which you found that that people like entrepreneurs, or business owners, and even people in their personal life, have tried to do themselves to help before they eventually found you and found what you're trying to help them with?Aideen Ni Riada Wolpe  03:47Well, I think for me and for many of my clients is we try to do other things and, or we try to take steps towards what we want, with the mental block still in our minds. So what I did was I started to think of my dad's advice as negative reinforcement. So think of positive reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is a bit like when someone says, I can't do that, and you go Halliwell, you know, so it's a bit of that, you know, push pull. And when you think of your parents, you know, they create this beautiful nest for us to live in, covered in feathers. But the Eagles actually put thorns around the edges of the nest. So when we get to a certain, a certain stage of our development, the parent parental view is actually at something that we have to fight that we're like, oh, this is annoying. This is like I don't want to be here anymore. So we have these things going on in our minds all the time. We have parts of us that are very reassuring to ourselves on parts of us that are giving us a hard time. But the it all is leading us to expand and to to figure it out. A new way of doing things, we're very stuck in our ways. And if we try to do something on our own, and it hasn't worked by doing it on our own, then sometimes getting support is an answer. If you've tried to do it, but pushing through, and it hasn't quite worked, then maybe you need to start being more in a receptive mode, which can mean you know, maybe internal beliefs changing rather than taking a lot of action. So there's there is looking at where you were, what you were doing, and, and, you know, having a conversation about something like that, like about, oh, my dad said this, or my teacher said this about my singing, I was told to lip sync, you know, just smell the words. So when we go back to those situations, and those, those crucial points, and even talk about them, and I learned to kind of accept and forgive those situations, then you can move forward in a new way. So doing it on your own doesn't always workStuart Webb  06:02like that. Let's, let's move into so what is it the that you tried out to do? And I know you've got a great website, I'm going to sort of just display it now, which is the confidence in singing.com. So what do you help people with what is there on that website that will allow people to start accessing some of that help that you've just talked about either self help or pushing through those sort of barriers that they know they've got, and they just want to be able to sort of release them?Aideen Ni Riada Wolpe  06:28Absolutely. Well, I have, um, I have a video series for those those of you watching that maybe you want to enjoy singing and have a secret wish to sing. My video series is five steps to confidence in singing, you just sign up for my main my newsletter to receive that. I also do a free voice consultation. So if you're struggling to express yourself in other ways, and you feel like you may want to get support around that come and do a free consultation, it's you don't there's no obligation at the end. It's a short consultation, I'm very happy to offer whatever free advice I can. And then I am going I'm writing a book at the moment stewards Would you believe called start singing, so that I'm hoping will be out in the next few weeks, and hopefully, the next few weeks, so I have a goal to bring that out by the fifth of February. And I also one thing that I love is I do love reading. So I have a blog post on my website of the my my five favourite books or books that changed my life. And if anybody is interested in finding out where I've developed my philosophy, then those books really can reveal a lot.Stuart Webb  07:39Do you know something? I was just as you were saying that I think that that consultation you mentioned, you know, for people that, you know, they have to stand up and speak about their business, they have to stand up and just talk about what they do, it's a difficult thing for a lot of business owners to do. So it's you know, it's the one thing you hear, isn't it that many people sort of would prefer it, when it comes to the public eulogy or whatever, at a funeral, they'd almost fit, they'd almost be more fearful of that than their own being in the box at the front of the church. So, so just having a consultation, to enable them to get some tips on how to release the voice so that they're not afraid of speaking. So they're not actually caught by that fear that they're not going to sound strange, it would be a great way to sort of just start the process of being able to talk more confidently about what they do and down the business growth path.Aideen Ni Riada Wolpe  08:29Absolutely. Because really, we need to remember that we're here to serve others. And if they don't know about what you do, I don't understand what you do and how you do it. You're letting a lot of people who could use your help down.Stuart Webb  08:42What a great philosophy, I love that you mentioned. So those books, and I'm not just going to come back to that one there. The the question that I asked everybody is was the book or concept or, or programme that really has been impactful for you that you want to share? So I suggest, you know, maybe that's one of those books, or is there something else you'd like to tell us about?Aideen Ni Riada Wolpe  09:00Oh, I have to tell you about this, this, I have a whole new way of using, you know, affirmations, and it's something that I discovered only about a month and a half ago. So yeah, this is really life transforming. It's been transformative for me, and I've been sharing it with everybody I can imagine. So I'm going to explain why it works. So well. Our brain tends to answer the questions we ask us. So if I ask myself, Why am I so crap and speaking in public, it will find answers to that it will find the answer that well, your dad said that you were you know that you should just shut up. And or, you know, well I don't like the sound of my own voice or, you know, I maybe I'm you know, tooting my own horn or I'm too big for my boots, right. So we find the negative answers to the negative question. So this is a way to actually turn those things around. What I did was I made a list of all my negative questions. These include things like why don't I love living with my mother? All right, for instance, why is my husband indecisive? All of these questions, but two pages worth? And then I turned them into positive questions. Why is my husband so decisive? Why do I love living with my mother now here in Michigan. And what happens is your brain then searches for positive answers. And say in terms of living here, I realised that I hadn't put my own stamp on, on even this little office that I use. So I ended up in a local shop, I bought myself a few nice little trinkets, like a little globe globe to put in the, it's a beautiful sea green colour, I got one of my affirmation cards and framed and my beautiful sticker on the wall here. So you become resourceful when you ask a positive question. So why is it becoming easier to use my voice? Why is my voice worthy of being hurt? Why is my message important for my clients? Why is my confidence growing bit by bit? So any, any negative questions? You've been saying to yourself? Like, why would I be terrified to go on a podcast? Or switch it around to? Why would it be comfortable for me to go on a podcast, and you'll find that certain interviewers might be might be someone that you would be comfortable, or maybe it'd be more comfortable on an audio podcast and not a video. So we become resourceful. These are called App form, Asians. And the, the person who told me about it is a woman called Denise Duffield Thomas, who's Australian. But the book is written by Noah, St. John. And he is on Amazon, I got his audio book called The Great little book of affirmations. And I listened to that. And I am just loving it. Brilliant.Stuart Webb  11:50I love that. Well, that's that's one to stick on the on the list to go and get it immediately after this. Yeah, I'm aware that we're taking up valuable time. And I know you've got a singing lesson to go to pretty soon. Yes,Aideen Ni Riada Wolpe  12:02yes, I'm actually going to teach my mantra class. So I teach mantras like, on and on Manny paddling on some of the spiritual side of things. So I have a class two classes a week that I teach like that, and I have one coming up.Stuart Webb  12:18Really? Well, we're gonna let you go to that. But not without first posing to you the the question that I should have asked you, which I've managed to sort of get out of asking this is work the way I only have to do thinking for four questions I made you do the question for the what is the question that I should have asked? And then please answer the question so that we don't end up in a situation where we're all wondering what you would have said.Aideen Ni Riada Wolpe  12:41And I think the question you could have asked is, why is the singing improved confidence. And the reason that singing and music improves your confidence is because of the way our brains work. So I'm very interested in this, I studied psychology. And when musicians are tested and how they use their brains, it's actually been found that they integrate the right and left side of our brains more with more interactions. So instead of just thinking logically, and linear in a linear way, or just thinking creatively and in a random way, you're more likely to actually problem solve with your whole brain, if you have studied music, or you've done singing. So that's one way that I feel that singing really helps develop our confidence. It makes us more resourceful.Stuart Webb  13:32Well, with that I'm, I'm going to get immediate into into my singing mode. And I won't actually get you to it now. Although I do actually sing.Aideen Ni Riada Wolpe  13:43I would love to do singing exercise with everybody.Stuart Webb  13:46Do you want to do that now? Yeah, why not?Aideen Ni Riada Wolpe  13:49We all have to use our voices during the day. And we generally wake up pretty croaky as I did this morning. So homing is my favourite singing exercise because anybody can access it. And you can hum along with any song. So try this. Hmm, Mm hmm. So it's like exploring the higher notes. Mm hmm. Good eye wherever you get to it was perfect. And then down the way and then the second one that was good, down, you've probably got a few really good low notes down there. There you go. And then the second one is meow sounds meow sounds help move the larynx so that you can access high notes. So it's just like a scrawny little kitten meal. Yeah, there you go. And you do that new, high, medium and low. And you if you do even two minutes of those kinds of exercises in the morning, you will be able to speak more clearly your voice will be ready to deal with clients. If you're speaking in public it will help you to get your voice working.Stuart Webb  14:54Oh, hey, what a wonderful tip. That's, that's I think that's the first time on this podcast. Anybody has forced me to Meow sounds so what we do is on a regular basis, listen, this has been a fascinating discussion. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. I'm just gonna remind everybody if you would like to get on to the mailing list so that you hear about when people like eating, it's gonna come on and force you to do singing and speaking exercises in order to improve your voice. Get onto our mailing list by going to https colon, forward slash forward slash TCA dot FYI, forward slash subscribe, that's TCA dot FYI, forward slash, subscribe. 18. Thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us. Really appreciate you putting some some time aside to do this in your room with you're now much more comfortable in it because you've got the colours around you. Really appreciate this. And thank you so much for spending some time. I really appreciate that. Thank you very much for watching us. John Connolly says hello. Thank you, John.Aideen Ni Riada Wolpe  15:54Thanks, John. Bye, guys. Bye bye. Get full access to It's Not Rocket Science! at thecompleteapproach.substack.com/subscribe

Building on the theme of failure from episode one, I sat down with Jodi for this week's episode - the mom of a young adult who had serious Executive Functioning challenges during his transition to college that impacted his grades, mental health, and overall quality of life. He has since made an inspiring transformation working with an EF coach over this past year and is now doing remarkably well. This episode explores what the tumultuous process looked like in all its glorious imperfection from Jodi's perspective.Jodi is very open about her son's challenges with Executive Functions, the pandemic, and the transition to college, and how all of these factors made life exceedingly stressful for them both as Jodi wrestled with wanting to help but not knowing what to do.Listen to this episode to hear Jodi's inspirational story about how she and her son are thriving after what felt like a huge failure. Hopefully, if you or your child are struggling with your own Executive Functions, this episode will give you some inspiration that with hard work, time, and the right support, massive transformations are possible.Some readings and resources related to topics & themes that came up in my interview with Jodi:Resources for Parents with Children Who Have ADHDChild Mind Institute - Complete Guide to ADHDParenting a Child with ADHDAmerican Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry - ADHD Resource CenterTransition from High School to College or WorkCollege Readiness Checklist - from BBS Tools LibraryTransition to College Checklist - from FAME Main12 Steps for Easing the Transition to Work - from understood.orgAsking for Help4 Tips to Effectively Ask for Help—and Get a YesTeaching Students How to Ask for HelpBeyond BookSmart ResourcesOverwhelmed by College? Here's How to Regain Control (blog)How to Help Overwhelmed College Students (webinar)College Executive Function CoachingContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.In the last episode, I covered the idea of failure and how it isn't actually failure. Many of our listeners are either executive function coaching clients or their parents, we know that both clients and parents of clients can feel like they're failing, both before they reach out for coaching and then even during coaching. But as we know, this isn't actually failing, right? It's just part of the process of finding what works. I wanted to explore this more and look at it from the perspective of someone who knows this feeling well. So I sat down with Jodi, she's a mom of a young adult who is working on improving his executive function skills. He's working with an executive function coach. And Jodi also spent some of her time talking with families who are interested in coaching for their own kiddos. So I'll let her tell you more about herself and share her unique perspective on brains and parenting and just share her inspirational story about coming back from what felt like a huge failure. And just a short note, before we dive into my conversation with Jodi, this is our first interview for this brand new podcast. And as you'll hear in the first few minutes, we're still working out some of the audio kinks. But we're not seeing this as a failure. Nope, it's been an excellent opportunity to learn how we can make it the best it can be. And it's just a little bit of a bumpy ride along the way. All right on to the show. Hi, Jodi, thanks so much for joining me today. Could you introduce yourself and share a little bit about your family's journey to executive function coaching?Jodi 01:58Yeah. So I'm Jodi. I'm a mom of young while a freshman/sophomore son in college. And I have a junior daughter in college and my daughter actually has multiple sclerosis, which is an autoimmune disorder that attacks your brain or spinal cord. So she got diagnosed at 16. So she was just young in high school when she got that. She was really high high executive functioning. I'm I feel like the only thing I can say I'm a genius at is executive functioning. And maybe empathy. It but um, and she was the same, but now she has MS. So she's she's struggled with a lot of those challenges. She's not the person who's with Beyond BookSmart, interestingly enough. In my career I work as a nurse and actually in an insurance company, but I work with our brain spinal cord injuries. So I spent the last 10 or 11 years working with very closely with brain injuries from their original right acute out of the injury and through the rehab and, you know, throughout their life of the injury until they're, you know, outside of our claim and workman's comp. So I have a lot of knowledge about how brains work differently. And what happens when brains don't work the way they used to work. And I have a son who has was diagnosed with ADHD when he was very little and the biggest reason why he was diagnosed with it was because he had a lot of trouble managing his emotions, so he had a lot of emotional dysregulation. I used to always say like, you can't take them off the train tracks, you gotta let them know, we're gonna be switching tracks, give him a little time advance notice. And then obviously, the typical ADHD stuff where, you know, they're, they're distracted, they don't focus, they seem like they're not listening. Um, so, so my son who has the ADHD diagnosis is the one who is in. We're just about I think a year somewhere around our year anniversary here with I think we're just maybe a month shy of that with Beyond BookSmart in through his life when he was little, it was always a challenge. I did bring him to a neuropsychologist who when he was maybe in second grade, and she said, "Wow, he needs some help". You know, it was it was pretty it was pretty significant not you know, very significant and so we did a lot with that we tried to avoid medications we weren't able to avoid medications and you know, he he grew up you got to better better hand handle with his with his emotions and regulating emotions and, but still all of the typical challenges that we see with our ADHD kids and learning and today's learning environment, which is so different than my learning environment I got to play when we were in lower grades, you know, they don't get to play anymore. No. Oh, so um, so he did he, you know, we did alright in our school system were very remote. We're kind of out in the woods in Western Massachusetts and we have a regional school and great teachers and great education. His teachers were really committed to him and understanding his differences and helping us with that. So the school system was really great. But when he hit high school, he was done with meds. He didn't like the way they made him feel. So all of a sudden, we're in a situation where the meds were helping him and he never learned any tools. So we did a lot of tripping through high school as far as like, falling behind getting ahead, falling behind getting ahead. He had a 504 plan, where you know, and I would constantly have team meetings, I would collect the team meetings right, and sit down and say, why can't we all work together? I can't, I can't bring it home if I don't know what it is that I'm trying to you know, do it at home. And so we got through it, but he ended up being a on top of all this he in in, you know, as we see a lot, very smart intellectual kid and... COVID. Senior year. So he wouldn't know what's happening all sudden, everybody's home, he lost prom, he lost senior trip, he lost graduation, he lost senior track, you know, just, and he lost his friends, which he's always had a hard time with friends. And he finally got this really great group that just really melded probably his junior year. And then he lost that group of friends. So we went into video gaming, because that's where everybody was, right? We couldn't see anybody. So we went into video gaming, he had zero structure. Time of day came and went, No, no, nobody had structured school. Nobody knew what to do. There wasn't planned like it is now. They're a little bit better at that remote teaching. So we kind of lost him. So we already had those struggles, and then I kind of lost him. So hoping that college would be better, he dove right into college into robotic engineering college. Remote robotic engineering. Yeah, no. Well, and they didn't really know. Hannah Choi 07:30Yeah, they were figuring it out, too. Jodi 07:33Yeah. Yeah, they really had a good grasp already, you know, on that kind of situation. But obviously switching to everybody being remote. He was very isolated. So he went to his dorm. And he didn't, he had a roommate who was never there. And so he sat in his room alone all day and all night and had classes that he never attended, because they were on his computer. And, you know, so that's sort of when he failed every single class. Or they do quarters there. So weHannah Choi 08:05That's fast. Those quarters are fast. My grad school, I went to UC Santa Barbara in California and its quarters there. It was, it was Yeah, but is it nine weeks or something goes by fast?Jodi 08:16It's um, it's they I think it's seven, seven and a half week much. Yeah. reclass is seven and a half week. Yes. Four days a week. Yeah,Hannah Choi 08:25I know. You basically start and then all of a sudden it's midterms. Yes.Jodi 08:29Yeah. Yeah. And you know, by midterms, he still hasn't done any of his homework because it's only two weeks in right and so it all catch up. Don't worry about it. It's all good and not so much not so much. Yeah. So he is and he wouldn't take help and our relationship started to get I'm really close with my kids. Both of them and our relationship was really getting hurt because I was having to you know, I was having to be the I can't I can't regulate his college and manage him at college and be mom without him just eating me you know so it was it was really really tough and in high school I was looking for executive functioning coaches in the area right and ever thought to that remote one option Hannah Choi 09:17right, that was before COVID Before we thought that way Yeah, we didn't thinkJodi 09:21that way at all everything is better in person better in person and although it is better in person remote gives us some really fantastic opportunity.Hannah Choi 09:28 Look at you and I, we're having this conversation. Jodi 09:30Yeah, I know! We're having conversation. We aren't that far away but we still aren't next door. So so you know earlier there was really no executive functioning coaches out here the school didn't know anybody and you know, he got he went to like executive functioning specialty therapists but it's very different. You know, your coach.Hannah Choi 09:51It's not the same thing. Yeah.Jodi 09:53So so the school actually said Beyond BookSmart is not anything on our list. We can't tell you how it goes. But what I do know is we have kids doing. So that's the only one I've heard of, if you want to give them a call and give it a try. So that's how we got cool. That's a little history on me. 10:11Yeah, I'm so glad for for him and for you and your relationship that they knew about that they knew about executive function coaching? Because it's not it's, I mean, first of all, that people even know what executive functions are. That's, that's really common. When, when people like, if it ever comes up, like, Oh, what do you do for work? And then I tell them, they nine times out of 10, I think that I work with executives. And so they're like, Jodi 10:39Oh, I would have never thought that.Hannah Choi 10:42And so and so then I'm like, well, some coaches work with executives, because some executives need executive function coaching. But the majority of our clients don't are not executives. So yeah, so that's wonderful that they that they, that they knew about it, and were able to connect to Jodi 11:01Well, his his school is really, the school is full of a whole bunch of kids on the spectrum. I mean, in I guess you maybe you probably see that a lot of engineering schools. Yeah. But they, they have a whole department that works with these kids for this reason. And so I thought that were going to be okay, because of them. But then realized, I think maybe we would have been if it wasn't for COVID. But there was it COVID just changed, right, everybody, everybody, you know, they just, it just blew up. Yeah, anything that was difficult was soHannah Choi 11:37that's the story that I personally have heard from so many people. And I know a lot of my colleagues have heard and just other people that I've talked to, I was just talking to a friend of mine recently. And she was just saying, like, she felt like she had everything together. And then when COVID hit, she realized she actually didn't, it's so much of our success is built is supported by the structures that we have, right? And so when those structures are there, and they're solid, and they're working and and we can kind of like relax, and so then then it's like, okay, then I don't have to worry about all that other stuff. So now I can, I can, you know, I can, like the parts, the parts that are challenging for me are not as challenging because I'd have to worry about all those other things. And so then when you do have to worry about them, and you're you've never managed them like that before. So like, you don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's the story that I'm hearing. And I think that a lot of us coaches are hearing from pretty much everyone.Jodi 12:37I'm even seeing it. I mean, like I say, and I know what executive functioning is, right? Because I work with brain injuries. So yeah, what happens when everybody falls on their head, they hit their frontal lobe and boom, that's, you know, sort of, that's where it goes. But, um, so yeah, so they, they, they knew of it. I mean, that's, I spoke to them with those terms. And they were like, Yeah, you know, this place we hear, you know, it's in Boston, whatever. And so and so here we are. But now it's just and even some of the parents that I talked to now, because between the his school, I'm on the parent Facebook site on his school, so between his school and then doing a little bit of liason, so I guess, liaison work type thing here, you know, just talking to other parents to let them know what my experience is. It's just there are a lot of questions still about... Well, it's, you know, remote and, you know, we're already doing so much on a computer. Do you feel like the remote can be successful? I feel like somebody needs to sit next to my kid. And I'm like, these, these these kids have been staring at screens for three years.Hannah Choi 13:47It's nothing new for them. No,Jodi 13:50they actually don't know how to sit down next to a person.Hannah Choi 13:52Haha, yeah! "What do you doing so close to me?"Jodi 13:56Yeah, which is actually kind of interesting even saying that because COVID You know, I think we find kids on the spectrum are not necessarily kids with ADHD but my son is definitely has his his levels of socially awkwardness. I mean, there are there he has a hard time reading social cues, but he's himself is very social once it becomes integrated, very chatty and social. But he was really hard to engage in, initially with as parents, we're reaching out on Facebook together saying, "my kids are struggling, my kids suffering, my kids not passing, my kids depressed", you know, and trying to get our kids together, which was like, herding ants. You know, like, I mean, when you know, there's fruit all over the place. There's like it possible, you know, and they're like, oh, yeah, sure. Okay. Well, yeah, my I'll reach out later, later, like later later. And then finally, somehow, I'm pretty aggressive. So you know, I definitely helicoptered that one. And you know, there were a handful of us parents who did and we sort of forced them to get together a little bit, a few of them. And what did they talk about? Are their moms! Great! We worked so hard to get them together. But now, now I'm you know, there's still that conversation is still going on. This is happening with COVID or without COVID. And so I'm always speaking up and saying, Look, you know, send me a private message and I'll let you know what's going on for me. So I've spoken to a lot of parents at the school and actually, some of them directed here, but also just some saying, "Look, I'll have my kid reach out to you". And I'll tell you, in I can say it's, it has a it's a direct effect from the coaching that he's been receiving. As much as we're doing this coaching for a lot of executive functioning skills, he is getting so much more confident in himself and aware of like, who he is, and that he's different in different is okay, okay. So he's reaching out to these kids. He's like, "Oh, yeah, no problem, Mom". And then I'm like, hey, you know, gently, did you ever reach out to the kid? He's like, "Oh, yeah, we reached out, we spoke, we talked, we're on Discord together. And I've met him for dinner." And I'm like,Hannah Choi 16:19When I, when I think about working with my clients, my dream for them. And I'm sure like all other coaches feel this way, or anyone that works with someone in this kind of capacity is that is that when you're done working with them, they then take what they've learned, and bring it out into the world and share it and help other people. And what a great example of that!Jodi 16:40Well, let me tell you another one, which is this is really like jumping ahead in in sort of missing the point here. Well, I guess not missing a point, right. We're here to talk. But jumping out of the executive functioning, which I'm sure that people who are listening want to hear, right. But taking a pause on that, since it's kind of going in this direction. He one of the parents, I was speaking to who was trying to get a feel for you know, talking to me about you know, what's it like to be to have a kid in this and, you know, a lot of parents are, you know, we have to sign up and for so many months, and you're worried about that, right? You know, we can deal with it. And, you know, my biggest thing is, it takes six, nine, twelve months to create a behavior. So you got to commit for six months. It's not going to work at three. It's probably not going to work at six. we're gonna say, you know, if you're here, it's because somebody's hit bottom. But with all that being said, the dad was like, would your son mind talking to my son, because, you know, I can't convince him that this is the thing. I'm willing to take the jump, but he needs to take the jump. And I'm like, Yeah, sure. never talked to my son about it. Yeah sure! He'll be home this weekend. So, you know, I go into his room. And I'm like, and he goes, Mom, what? He's like, what? And so I asked him if he would talk to him. He's like, Yeah, sure you have his phone number is a discord. So I give him his phone number. As I'm talking to him. Now, you're a coach, you've got to know and anybody listening who has a parent, or maybe is even in it themselves? Perseveration. Like, wait till later, is there a common denominator? And he's like, sure picks up his phone to (makes dialing sound) "What should I say?" I say something. And he's like, ah, that doesn't really sound like me since this thing. So then he shows it to me. He's like, What do you think about this? I'm like, just hit send. Hit Send. The kid responds right back 15 minutes later, they're on the phone. And, and, and I and I had to share this with his coach, because I think this is kind of exactly what you're saying. Like, you're hoping that not only are they going to benefit from this and find a better way to find themselves, their fit their way to fit and be successful in this crazy world they've been dumped into because we got to slowly progress right with, we didn't have executive functioning, we slowly learned the technology. They just woke up. We're born into the technology they didn't get to like, figure it out. So he says he's talking to this kid for at least 45 minutes and you know, pacing all over the house and stuttering through his words and trying to get his thoughts out and all that. And eventually he gets rolling. And he is the stuff he's saying. He's like, look, he's like, it's hard work. It's really it sucks. It sucks in the beginning. And I was at rock bottom. So I knew I had to do it because I there was nowhere else to go. And I didn't want to and I lied to my mom and I lied to my coach and and he's like, it's kind of hard to lie to him because they're on your computer and they're looking at what's going on. And he's like, You got to share your stuff. If you're not going to share your stuff. It's not even going to work like this is what he's saying. You know, and there's pauses the other kids like asking questions and uh huh. You know, and then he's like, you know, going on and on and on. Had to have been 45 minutes, I was talking to this kid, and I'm in the living room in tears. Yeah, I would want to cry the stuff the coach and I have been saying, you know, he's coming out of his mouth, he's like, You have to be really, I don't think he used the word transparent. But he basically said, you know, you have to be transparent. If you lie, you're only hurting yourself. Because guess what they're gonna find out, your parents are paying for it, they're gonna be mad, the coach is gonna tell your parents, you know, you've got to let them talk to your parents. And he's like, look, my coach talks to my mom. So now my mom doesn't bother me. So let your coach talk to your dad. Let your coach talk to your mom. Yeah. You know, he's like, let them all talk. And but he's, but it was the coolest piece about it was he was like, it sounds like you really should do it. He's like, it's gonna be really hard work. He goes, but you know, this, this is this is it's getting me through on passing. I'm learning. And what was one of the things he had said, I can't. He was talking about. You know, that? Oh, one of the other pieces he was saying. So the whole lying part. I mean, we literally just went back through that, right? He goes, it's gonna feel like you're not making any progress. Wow. Like, I feel like sometimes why am I wasting my time, I should just quit. I'm not making any progress. And then he's like, and then I think about where I was, and I pass this many classes, I failed some classes. I didn't lie, and I got really ahead, then I got excited. And then I fell behind. And he's like, like, and then the other thing he said, which I could not believe, is, "you have to be honest with yourself". I was like, is this kid eading from the book, you know, he's like, You have to be honest for yourself. And you have to ask for help. Right? In his coach has been like, and we both been like "Coby, until you have to ask for help." Guess what, you can't do it. Just acknowledge that this is your your he hates he won't use the word pattern anymore, because he has changed. And to him, he doesn't have the same patterns, even though looks that way to me. So but it's just like listening to him say all the things that his coach and I have been saying over and over and over again, coming out of his mouth. I want him to keep talking to his kids. Because the more he says it right, the more it becomes real for him. And he holds up the phone. And he was so pumped. He said, I think he's gonna sign up. I feel like he's gonna get help, like, I'm getting help. And it feels so good not to have all of that. He was also alone, because I don't get it. I have executive functioning. I've really good executive functioning. That makes no sense to me. You know, so Wow, that was that was a huge off the track.Hannah Choi 23:04Oh, I love it, though. It makes me think about like, if you were to, if you were to to check in with how you felt like when you heard that conversation, and think about back to when he first started and how you felt when he first started coaching. Like, at like, if you if if present day Jodi could tell past Jodi, like beginning of coaching Jodi, what would you tell yourself?Jodi 23:34I would say you're right to stick with it, you know, go the beaten path, because when we started, it was painful. He was depressed. And he has a therapist now. And he has his coach. And any a support group at school, like all these kids are now a support group to each other. And it was so painful because he started he ended up dropping out the fourth quarter, he had to withdraw from school. So he didn't get suspended for a year because he hadn't passed any classes. And so he was just he couldn't have been more bottom and he looked like, like, he looked like a cancer patient, the circles under his eyes, you know? And he said, he said "I need, I think I need help". And I said and so we did some research. We had a couple of things that we were looking at in this from you know, the school had not recommended you guys won't give me your name not solely recommended. And and so he was at rock bottom and he owned that he was at rock bottom before he just still kept thinking he was going to be able to do it. He was going to be able to catch up. He was going to be able to figure it out. And so we started we started a little bit he started a little bit of coaching really got to know his coach and they hit it off like good so well. Yeah. And we didn't need to go on to a second one or anything. It was a fantastically perfect match and still remains that way. But so he took a summer class so so the the last quarter he just went up, he worked like regular job worked and worked with the coach and we just did sort of life skills type stuff. They did, he did with them. And then we started a summer class. So summer classes were seven weeks. Okay. And it was community college, but it was still seven weeks and it was one class. One class seven weeks history. All writing okay. Oh, no, take that back. It wasn't history. It was psychology. All writing. I think it's his favorite classes ever taken. He hates writing any any doesn't like to look at himself. Right? It was incredible. You got an A in that class, right. So that was awesome. And then we roll into, but it was a great start. And then in the middle, he was crashing and burning. And then from that crash and burn trying to catch back up and getting an A, the teacher was so great with him, which is surprisingly, because the teacher really appeared to be really narcissistic. It was it the way he wrote the way he spoke the way his syllabus was written. It was very, it was like, I was like, this is interesting, but he loved my like the retrospect he just was like looking at himself and all of it. Yeah. So but the painful part was, as we went through those really, as we got that we did the second semester in the summer with two classes. I remember what they were. But he ended up getting a B and a C in those classes. And that that was that's where today's God, I wish I could go back and just like tap myself on the shoulder and give myself a hug and say, this is a right stick with it. Because I wasn't sleeping. He wasn't sleeping. He was it was it was painfully hard for him. His brain hurt, he couldn't sleep, he had headaches. I mean, it is a complete roto root of the way they function. You know, it's it's, it was it was so hard. It was so hard to watch. And I find that a lot of the parents that I'm talking to their kids are the earliest they don't think that their kids need that much help. But he needed that much help. And he's he was working through depression, but it was he has zero executive functioning. He doesn't understand time, how long will take you to get this done? Not even how long does it take you to go grocery store, which he's gone to 100,000 times now. He doesn't know how to organize himself. He doesn't know where to start. He doesn't know how to what comes first what comes second, none of it. So it was a lot to learn and implement and get graded on all the same time. Yeah, that is in he again. He just looked like a very, very ill person. And I knew I knew he had to stick with it. And but it was very painful. And so for any parents who do go into this in and see that, stick with it, support your kid, tell him they're doing a great job, he would consistently take one step forward, and two steps backwards. And one step forward. And one set, you know, it was like, it almost seemed like he was never getting any for traction. But then he did. Yeah. You know,Hannah Choi 28:32so what, like, for you, how did you? How did you handle that? Like how, like, what are strategies that you use for yourself? To when you like when you saw him take, you know, like one step forward and two steps back orJodi 28:50I didn't? I didn't always handle it. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean,Hannah Choi 28:55it's like, as a coach, it is. It's, it is so hard when you see that, but they're not our children. I mean, sometimes they feel like they're our children, but they're not. And I know like for myself when I see a client who's you know, struggling like that. It's really hard. And, and, and it requires so much patience. And it requires like so much looking for these tiny little wins and recognizing like, oh, wait, okay, so we're like not doing well in all these other areas. But this one little tiny nugget of gold has been found. So like, what, what what did you like for yourself to get through thatJodi 29:40you handed in one out of three homeworks in a week? That's better than zero and a three homeworks I mean, that's what we were celebrating. Yeah. And he got up and went to class, online live and didn't watch the recording once this week. I was like, This is what like yeah, Ah, it was it, it was so hard. But for in for me, I didn't do it graciously. So any parents out there who aren't I would, I would handle it horribly in in fall into my own patterns, which is, which, you know, we talked about before we started recording, I was watching this, listening to this other podcast one day and I was crying because I thought, oh my god, I'm the worst parent in the world, I have alienated my child, trying to make him like me. And treating them like he was just a bad kid who didn't want wasn't motivated or, you know, was lazy, they get these lazy labels, they don't have the skill. So. So I went back and forth just like he did, I took two steps forward, one step backwards and one step forward and half step backwards, you know, I would support him one day, and the next day, I would get frustrated and be like, how could you not have had it in your homework? And so that's where the coach came in.Hannah Choi 31:00Oh, and so how did how did that change it for you.Jodi 31:05So I still communicated with I communicate with a coach. And so once he established a relationship with my son, and he established a relationship with me, and I was very clear with him, you need to call me out, you need to call me out. And it doesn't matter if feelings get hurt, I'm not gonna go tattling to, you know, to anybody to say, your main we want a new coach said you need to call me out, I need you to point to me and say back off back off, not your role. And he did. And he actually had a very long phone call with me where I was in tears. And he was just very honest. And I appreciated it. And I think without really he knew he could do that. I would imagine that you guys can't do that with everybody. 31:54No, yeah, and my experience actually, my I mostly work with college and adults. And, and the parents of the kids that I have worked with, have in general not been involved. And so it, but what you said is so important how like your like your coach, the relationship between the coach, and the person being coached is so important. But the network, the support network of the person being coached, in a lot of situations is a big part of it. And so you have a trust and rapport with your coach with your child's coach, or, you know, or whoever. I mean, it could be your partner's coach, like if you're an adult, if you're, you know, if you're an adult and you have a partner, the partner might, you know, also need to be get some reassurance from the coach. So, right, it's right, it depending on the needs of the people in the support network of the person being coached. So that's wonderful that you are able to get that.Jodi 32:55Yeah, so he's been fantastic. I didn't really think about that. And I know some of the parents that I've talked to, they're just like, I don't really know what my son does, but I just found out that he's not passing any of his classes. And I thought to myself, Oh, yeah. Oh, you know, but then that parents like, Oh my God, how could you be so into your kids stuff? Like back off, you know? So,Hannah Choi 33:15And there's no right way to do it? And right, and what you said, like about listening to the podcast, and then crying and feeling like, you know, what am I doing? Like, how much of parenting is this guilt? Right? This like, guilt that we put on ourselves? No matter what, we're not doing it right. I mean, I don't know about you, but I that's something that I struggle with as a parent often. And yeah, and it's it's...Jodi 33:39You just hope in the end, you didn't screw them up too bad.Hannah Choi 33:45Meanwhile, here we all are here we all are going to therapy. Yeah, yeah. Jodi 33:53But the coach, I am, I am, again, super close with my kids. And in you know, you could label it helicopter parenting, I would say I am not the Nancy helicopter parent, but I am definitely in there trying to recognize where they need help and helping them acknowledge that they have deficits and that I'm here to give them resources. Like with my daughter, she needed resources with coaching and soccer and she didn't really need we needed medical resources when she got diagnosed, and my son has been, you know, social environments. What kind of sport can we get him into where he doesn't feel like he's getting bullied and I created a robotics program at the high school so that he could get into robotics and ran that, you know, so that's the kind of involvement I have. I try not to like overly, you know, manage your schedule, all that it's definitely what they want. And then I help them find the resources and move in that direction, but very emotionally involved with my kids and our coach is just incredible. He knows that he can just, say "this is your role, mom. You know, I talked to Coby today you've overstepped" You need to support them, you need to support them in this way. Yeah, this is the best way to support them. Not this stuff. Don't ask any of these questions ever, ever, ever, ever? Yeah, these are your questions that you can ask, this is your role in the supporting. And so I think that we've gotten there really gotten there, I, I'm very backed off, and I'm just my role is to watch his phone to make sure he goes to classes. Now that's my role.Hannah Choi 35:24There you go, that's great. Jodi 35:26His role is to have his fingers in his work, know what he's doing, you know, criticize, or whatever it is that you guys do when they don't do the right thing and help to redirect them and all that, but it's, it's, um, it's really, it's just, in the parents that I talked to, some of them are just like, well, we don't need that much. I'm like, then you don't doesn't matter. They're giving me what we need. They're gonna give you anyway. Yeah, yeah. And one of the things I tell the parents, when I talk to them is like, Look, your contacts are there to hear your honest, whatever it might be. And if you're a helicopter parent, and you're doing too much your contacts are gonna say, this might be why this isn't working, it might actually be the coach, we might need to work with you a little bit, you know, or they, you might, it might not be a good match, and you don't like the communication and they'll change that. That's the great thing about you guys is you're like if there's something wrong, yeah, you'll make it work.Hannah Choi 36:19 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think something that you said earlier made me think about a conversation I was just having with one of my adult clients who were talking about trust, and how, how so much of going through executive function coaching is about trust and about trusting yourself, and about trusting your coach, and just trusting the process. And like you said, in the very beginning, and which is something that I feel like I say, like a broken record is it takes a really long time. And so trusting all of the parts of it yourself and your coach and, and the process and, and the tools that you try and everything, it's and that's such a huge part of it. And ah, I forgot what I was going to say - where I was going with that. But anyway, it's a big deal. Jodi 36:45I have one parent who at at my son's school, who I directed to you guys who has, I don't know where she's at right now. But she had gone to the matching coach matching process. And she called me and she goes, this is how it went for me. Is this, is this how it went for you? And I said, Well, no, but when you're in that meeting, did you say, Hey, I feel like you glazed over A, B and C? And that's really important to me? Well, no, I didn't know if I could37:39You gotta speak up!37:39Yeah, be honest, the kids have to be honest, the moms have to be honest. Like all of that. Let them know how you feel. This isn't personal. At all. Yeah, if you if you don't like your contact, let let somebody know that you need to change. And this is why or talk to your contact about why you feel you're not in touch. These people are all about matching and functioning and making it work and trust, right? There's no trust, even if they're they did nothing wrong. It's just not the right match or there isn't trust. So they need to find a new person that there will be trust with and it might not have anything to do with either. Yeah. So she's like, okay, all right. I'm gonna call it that. That's better than not calling back and just walking away from itHannah Choi 38:30You know, everything you're saying is just making me so glad that we're that we decided to do this podcast because it, it's it, it's showing me like how valuable hearing someone else's story is, and how that right there is such a huge part of asking for help, like what your son said, you know, like, I think I need some help. And in and reaching out and asking, like, can you tell me your story so that I can figure out like, where mine fits in, you know, and what my needs are and everything. So that's wonderful. Thanks for sharing all that. Jodi 39:04Yeah, of course. Hannah Choi 39:07I love I, I was thinking about something else that you said. And you were saying, you are really involved with your kids. And but I was thinking about how you have you, you really have had to be since the beginning with your son being diagnosed so early with ADHD. And then with your daughter becoming having such high, you know, intense medical needs. You can't you as a parent of a child with you know, those medically fragile, you you need to be involved. You know, you can't. You don't have the choice of, of being hands off. So, so it doesn't surprise me that you continue to be like that, because that's just how you have always parented and thank goodness you are because your son knew that he could go to you and say that Like, I need help, and that you recognized it that you saw it in him. And you realize, like, something's off here.Jodi 40:08Yeah, yeah. Well, that was worried before we even started, you know, so but yeah, like, you know, part of part of my career and in what I do, even on the side, you know, I've had a couple of friends, one whose son ended up fell down the stairs, in his 20s, you know, fell down the stairs or got a brain injury. And, you know, the system right now, especially with COVID, you know, and another friend who's, whose good friend was dying of cancer. So we have these two situations where they're in the hospital system, and nobody's giving them any information. And they think that that's okay. So it's, it's sort of the same thing, teaching them working with them as as a case manager type liaison to help get their answers and move things in the right direction, get the person with cancer discharged home, get the kid, you know, the right care, and, you know, communicate the home needs and rehab and things like that, and just educating the family. Do that with my kids, like we all. That's, that's how I roll. And that's how they roll. And everything is very, everything's very open in our family in regards to anything going on. There's there's no issue, you know, my kids will tell anybody who puts them on a podcast. So go ahead and put my son on a podcast, my mom needs to butt out. I'm just like, Look, guys, you can't go from having all these years of needing me and asking me for help, to all the sudden "Thanks a lot, we got this!" I'm like, Look, I need a transition.Hannah Choi 41:41Yeah, I need that too!Jodi 41:44I need to transition out as well. For myself, I actually have been working with a life coach, to balance myself with all the stuff going on with my kids don't my kids growing up not needing me that I'm getting all the resources, my daughter is taking over all of her own medical care. My son has a coach who's taking care of him and a therapist. So just finding that balance and finding me because me has just been helping these kids with all these needs. Yeah, who are you want to yours? Right? Yeah. And so I'm like, Well, what do I do if I'm not helping you if I'm not up in your business, and so when they're like, You got to get out of our business. So the coach is my life coach has been great. She's, she's got me to start reading again. She had me create a reading nook in my house and bedroom that's like my no phone, no TV, no, nothing. Mom's you know, and even my son will come in and he'll be like, Oh, you're already reading. Hannah Choi 42:41Wonderful, and how important that self care is. Right? And when we are caught up in all the busyness of, of the challenges of life. Yeah, it's it's that's like the first thing that we that I think a lot of people like, oh, and it's probably actually the last thing we should like. Right. But it's so hard. It's so hard to prioritize that. That's wonderful. I'm so happy for you. So great.Jodi 43:07Thanks. We're all a work in progress.Hannah Choi 43:09It's true. We really are. And, and I'm, I am very, I personally am very open talking about the things that I have challenges with. And I think that when you can be open like that, and recognize like, no one is perfect. And everyone needs help. In whatever form it is. It's it's so freeing. It's so freeing to just be like, Yeah, this is me.Jodi 43:35This is me. I'm not perfect. I need help, too. And we're all different. And that's okay.Hannah Choi 43:41We need to be different. Yeah, otherwise, be weird.Jodi 43:46Yeah, who don't want to be the same drone walking around?Hannah Choi 43:49Yeah. That's so great. Um, let me see. So what are you looking forward to like, for your son for yourself? For like, you know, I mean, obviously, you are thinking about yourself in the future, because you, you know, you got yourself a life coach, and you're reading again, and you know, and you're taking time for yourself, but what are you looking for forward, forward to?Jodi 44:17I, you know, I my, my big thing is just when, and I just started sort of looking at like, what am I you know, what does my life look like? And I think this happens with everybody who's who's empty nesting even. But for for my son and for my daughter, I mean, she is really moving in a place where she is she's really taking control of herself recognizing her deficits understanding that she can't move as fast as everybody else and she's really finding finding her place and she's gonna have challenges her whole life even if she didn't have MS. You know, so she's really going into she's really gotten herself sort of in that direction now, which is exciting. So I'm just looking forward to when my son Coby is, is doing that same thing. And he's moving in that direction. Yeah. And I think the first glimpse of it was was this past week listening to him talk to that other kid. I was like, Oh, my God, it's happening. Hannah Choi 45:15It's happening. It's really happening. It's happening.Jodi 45:17Yeah. And there's no particular like, check the box. Okay, it's been done. It's been done, I can move on. Yeah, but there they, I didn't think that it would ever be happening with him. He's just always just so I'm, is his father is a lot similar. And his father has to have a - We're divorced. But we've been divorced for a long time. So and and, he really has to have a wife and a secretary to be successful. Right? He needs the wife for the regular life stuff, and kids and everything else. And he needs the Secretary, because of the executive functioning, right? So the wife not. And so my thing is, I don't want my son to need a wife. And that's a big reason why we I would have to say, we've probably got divorced because for me, it felt like he was just lazy and wouldn't do anything. And I was doing everything right. Yeah, he needs that wife for that. And then he's the secretary. So I want my son to not need that. I want him to be able to give what he has to give to somebody without them feeling like they're, they're giving everything right, you know, and he's taking and so and I see him doing that.Hannah Choi 46:27I was just gonna say he's on his way to that. Jodi 46:30Already started that. Yeah. That's what I'm, that's what I want. And it's going there. So we're sticking we are sticking with it. I was just gonna say and he, I mean, he even has plans as much as I think one of the things that you guys always say is the point is not to stay on forever, right? The point is not to stay an executive coach with this person forever. It's to teach them the tools and let them go free. And that takes a while and parents will ask me how long does that take? Like? It's just like, my brain injuries. Everyone's different. But it's gonna take over a year. I really don't have a whole lot. Yeah, yeah. Like my son's always already like, okay, so when I've got this going, I still want to work with you on public speaking, I still want to work with you on better healthy lifestyles and activities. And so he's already planning. When I'm perfect. This is what we're gonna work on next.Hannah Choi 47:25So he's really thinking into the future for himself, too, which is so that's so beautiful. Yeah, I love that. How wonderful. Yeah, I have, like I mentioned before, when before we started recording, I'm my I'm coming up on four years with one of my clients, and she's in eighth grade. Now, I started working with her when she was in fourth grade. And with my, the session we had on Monday, it was just like the entire session was this gift of all of these things that that I have been working with her on over the years. And she just like, did all the things. Like she tried something new, and she was gonna ask your teacher for help. And she, she, like, breathe. She like we're working on breathing before, like during taking a test because she rushes through tests. And she told me, I breathed before every question. And she said, you know, that was the easiest science test I've ever taken. I'm like, Oh my gosh, yeah. And it's, I mean, yeah, it's taken a long time for us to get there. But it's just so wonderful seeing her taking these skills that she's learning. And she's already thinking about, well, how can I apply them in the future? And that he's doing that too. It's just48:40You've like, just turned a leaf. It's like you, and there's possible you'll roll back or whatever? Hannah Choi 48:46Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Jodi 48:47And how lucky she is to have had you for four years at that age. 48:51How lucky am I? Oh, my gosh. It's just she is lodged in my heart, man. She's just she's just such an amazing person. I'm actually going to be interviewing her mom in a couple of weeks. And it's just yeah, it's it's beautiful to see as a coach, and I imagine that your son's coach has has had a similar emotional experience watching him, you know, just to go through what he's gone through. And how long has I can't remember if you said this before, but how long have they been coaching together?Jodi 49:25I think we're just we're we're close to a year where I think we're just under a year because he it was after he made it through three quarters. Right. So finals are this week of the third quarter. So that took me a couple of weeks to find you guys so so we're coming very close to just a year just to your he's got a lot of work ahead of him. Yeah. So you know and is Coach isn't going anywhere. I'm not gonna let him go on and Yeah, yeah, they have such a respect. You know, like there's there's such a respect I'm just I, what we've seen in a year how hard, it's so hard for him still, but I just can't say this enough where he's come already, you know, you could look at him on a big global and be like, he hasn't really gotten anywhere. But that's just not true. He's off academic probation, he didn't get suspended. He, you know, like those, that's a big deal. Yeah.Hannah Choi 50:19And, you know, you mentioned in the beginning confidence and how, like, that comes up all the time, parents will say, you know, like, I just want my child to feel more confident. And I think I think feeling better about your own executive function skills makes you just just just naturally you feel more confident. Like I know, for myself, like I told you in the beginning, I have terrible memory. And and I used to not use a planner, or anything, I wouldn't, I would just like occasionally write have to do no to do lists and write stuff down. But I would just try to rely on my terrible memory. And yeah, it was like, not a great decision.51:00That would stress me out so much. I have to write everything down.Hannah Choi 51:03Yeah, now I'm like obsessively checking my planner. But when I went, I guess when I was in grad school, like when I was in college in high school and grad school, then I wrote I did I kept a planner during then. But then I think I just thought, like, Oh, I'm not in school anymore. So I don't have to have a planner anymore. But, but my confidence, just like went down the toilet. Because I just started thinking, Oh, well, I'm just like, not a good friend. And I'm not a good partner, because I'm forgetting these things. And then I realized, wait, I just need to write them down. And then I'm not gonna forget them anymore. And, and it, it gave me my confidence back. And so for kids who, especially for kids who have challenges in many executive function areas, you can you can imagine how that would erode your confidence pretty darn quick.Jodi 51:53You're a failure every minute of the day. Yeah, no matter what you do, every minute of the day, he was a failure. That's what I had me crying when I was listening to other podcasts. Yeah, he was basically a failure constantly. And then he started lying. Because, right. He's failing. And so it gets you off his back for totally. Yeah. Hannah Choi 52:10You know, it's a protective a protective action. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. And, and like he said, You can't lie. That's so wonderful. So he went from lying to saying, like, you can't lie. Yeah, that's great. Not doesn't mean he's still not going to. And this is a kid who used to never be able to lie. He had the worst face. Everybody could tell, you know, he got good at it as he got further into high school. And it was a skill. But yeah, I mean, not to say he's not going to do it. But I'm just like, Oh, my God, keep the kids coming for him to talk to because the more he says this out, yes, the more he'll stop before he does it. Because it's, you know, it's being repeated. And it's being shared. And it's, what if that kid calls him back later? Because he said, you have my number anyway. I Yeah. And if it's a year from now, give me a call if you need me. What's he gonna say? I don't lie to my coach the whole year. No, I Yeah. I lied to you, too. You know, just kidding. Yeah, I think, I think, like when I think about my client that I've been working with for four years, and I think about the messages that I've given to her over the years, and it's taken a really long time for those to sink in. And I think like, like how you said that you want that you hope that he, you know, continues to have those conversations with those kids, and continues to say that, because I think whether we tell ourselves the same message over and over again, or someone else tells it like someone that we trust, and that we that doesn't sound like nagging or whatever, that eventually it does sink in, and it does, you know, it you like, like she said to me, because I've always said to her, you know, where we're just, you know, if you can do these things, it will make your life easier, you know, things won't be so hard. And, and we've, you know, we've been saying that for I've been saying that for years to her. And she said to me on Monday night, while school is still boring, but it's so much easier. Oh, yeah.Jodi 54:15That is like, that is like the moment where you just celebrate.Hannah Choi 54:19Yeah, and you'd but I think just you have to hear it. You have to hear it from yourself. And you have to hear it from the people around you that you trust again and again. And I think that's kind of why coaching takes so long is because it just takes a long time for those message for you to like truly believe those messages. And then once you believe them, you have to put actions with them.Jodi 54:40Right? Right. Once you're like wait, it works. Now you have to make that intention happen over and over.54:46Yeah, and now he's got all this great evidence that he can do things. And so when he does slide back, which he will I mean, we all do you know, like even you and executive function Master, I'm sure there are times where you're like, Oh, I really screwed that up. You know? Oh, yeah, yeah, we're notJodi 55:07Because all the things you don't prioritize, like, whatever. And you know, afterwards you're like, I knew better. Yeah, I knew better. But in the moment, it felt easier.Hannah Choi 55:17Yeah, I'm so glad that's just such a wonderful story. Thank you so much for sharing today and for sharing with the other parents, I'm sure that you have, you know, made such a difference in, like, if you think about if you can change one parent or not change one parent, but give one parent the confidence to hook their kid up with a coach. And then, and then that kid then has the success that their son is experiencing? And then he then goes on and talks to someone else. Like, that's wonderful. Like, how many ripples that we create? 55:54So yeah, so many ripples. Yeah, yeah, in, in that whole point is just parents get definitely some of the ones I've been talking to. And you've obviously probably talked to them too, like, some of the timeline is really a focus for some of them. And I'm like,Hannah Choi 56:09Yeah, and it's hard. I mean, it's expensive. It's, you know, it's definitely not like a, but, you know, I just said to someone the other day, actually a friend of mine, who was who is interested in, in coaching, and, you know, we were talking about how it's, it's actually it's an investment, it is very expensive, but it's an investment that will not stop paying off when you're done it, you know, it will continue to pay off. I mean, I know myself just like, being a coach, like I have, I don't have great executive function skills, but I have I have been able to, you know, I know, like a ton of strategies, I know what works for me. And, and I continue to see, like, how challenging it is to keep them keep up with it. But how, in doing in doing it, and in improving my own executive function skills, how it has such a positive impact on all aspects of my life. And it's just so great.Jodi 57:10So yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I and him talking to the kids. I mean, I just can't, like, you're right. It's the Pay It Forward, just keeps going and keeps going. And if one parent joins and sticks with it, and does it, and the financial piece of it, is it I'm a single mom in, in, my son goes to a private engineering school. And we don't get any financial aid. Well, like I he gets loans. I happen to make just enough money, that we don't get to get any financial aid.57:45Yeah, so you're like, right in between? 57:47Yeah, exactly. So you know, it's, it's, it's a struggle to pay it. But the reality is, you know, my daughter's treatment is like, $300,000, twice a year. And it's covered by insurance, right? Yeah. But if it wasn't covered by insurance, I would be in debt up to my ears, because she can't be your brain can't be decompensating, she's 22 years old. So you know, I feel the same about my son, you know, some for a period of time, it was a huge struggle. And sometimes I get caught up and I, the coach, might his coach knows that the extra time is always approved. He never would have used extra time with my son and it's always on like, you need extra day you need to, it's always approved. So you know, for me, there is no dollar amount I could put on my child and you can't always say that, you know, you can only come up with so much money, right? Right. Yep. But it is expensive. But I if you can make ends meet and make it happen, it's worth it. In the end, lots of time, sometimes lots of pain, lots of patience and lots of money, but it will always keep paying it forward for your kid or for yourself, always.Hannah Choi 59:08So that's it for today. I'm so glad you're here and you took time out of your day to listen, I really hope that you found something useful and something that resonated with you and Jodi's story. If you've subscribed to the podcast, you'll be getting an email with some resources related to today's episode. If you haven't subscribed yet, you can do so at our website, www dot beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to the resources and tools I mentioned. Thanks for listening

Ashleigh Hargrave  00:05Welcome to Mosaic, your Novant Health podcast for diversity, inclusion and equity. You'll learn more about the mosaic of similarities and differences that make us stronger, and how health equity benefits us all. Piece by piece, we're telling the stories of the beautiful mosaic of Novant Health. Becky Knight  00:24This is Becky Knight and I have the privilege of working with Novant Health BRGs. Business Resource Groups or BRG's play a critical role in our goal to embed diversity, inclusion and equity throughout the organization. BRGs are groups of team members gathered around a dimension of diversity. They're a forum for the exchange of ideas, experiences, and perspectives. BRGs help us better understand ourselves and each other, and they help us keep our Novant Health promise to relentlessly pursue remarkable care every day, so patients get the compassionate, expert and personal experience they deserve. On a previous episode, I spoke with the founder of our newest BRG Rebound, whose vision is to create an open and supportive environment to raise awareness of mental health and substance abuse diagnoses. On this episode, we'll hear from a member of the Rebound BRG about how the group has supported her and her thoughts on reducing stigma in the workplace. We'll also hear from a member of our Women Physicians BRG to get a clinical perspective on mental health. Tanya, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Can you tell me a bit about your role as a transporter in our organization? 01:40I am responsible for taking patients to procedures and taking patients up to the roof when they've been admitted. And I have a lot of interaction with patients. So I really enjoy just speaking with patients and helping them to get their mind off of things and just being there to support them in a unique role. Becky Knight  02:06Can you tell me a bit about the BRG you're involved in? 02:10Well, in New Hanover, we have a BRG that is focused on mental health awareness. It's called Rebound. And we are just trying to create a safe space for people to speak about what they may or may not be going through, what their family members may or may not be going through, just for them to be able to get help without being stigmatized by common misconceptions surrounding mental health. Becky Knight  02:55Would you mind sharing with me why you wanted to join the rebound Business Resource Group? 03:01I actually had a experience lately where I had to go in for a reactions with the medication and that reaction induced anxiety. Just that stigma of being afraid of going in for an issue that might coexist with anxiety. That is is the stigma that we're trying to combat. Becky Knight  03:35I spoke with Sarah Arthur in a previous episode, and she mentioned that in starting the BRG at first people were reluctant. And that's understandable, especially for a mental health group in the workplace. But that didn't stop you. Why not? 03:50I just have a great interest in helping people understand these issues and helping people understand that it's a medical issue, that there's a chemical imbalance in brain like we've all heard about. But we don't really know what to do with that information. That's just a sad thing, because it doesn't create that safe space that people should be able to feel when they go to a hospital for help. Becky Knight  04:18Yeah, definitely hospitals should be a safe space for sure. And I just appreciate what the BRG is doing because I think it's a good thing to be conscious of, for one thing, the words that we use to describe people and how even if we're talking, you know, among co workers, you think, well the patient can't hear you -- but your coworker hears you, your coworker hears what you're saying, and that might make them think twice about if you're a safe person or not for them to talk to. 04:48Everybody needs help sometimes whether that help is just talking to a friend or family member or a colleague or if they need to come in and get help from a doctor, you know, that's okay. And we're trying to create an environment where people feel safe to do that. Becky Knight  05:08Thank you, Tanya. I appreciate your dedication to your transporter role, and for helping our patients feel more at ease as you navigate them around the hospital. And I also appreciate your willingness to work towards educating all of us on how to be more compassionate with each other. At this point, I'd like to welcome Dr. Michelle Constantino to the discussion. She is a licensed clinical psychologist with Bariatric Solutions. She helps patients prepare for weight loss surgery, as well as help them live well after surgery. She's also a member of our Women Physicians Business Resource Group. Michelle, welcome. And thank you for being a part of this episode, I wanted to start with your thoughts on how the pandemic is affecting mental health. Michelle Constantino  05:55Yeah, I think it's been a huge change for people. I think people were isolated. And that was hard, especially people who lived alone. And then, I guess there's just different layers to it, because then there was people who are trying to also homeschool children and work full time jobs. So there was that stressor for people.  Becky Knight  06:16Yeah. And you've likely seen the reports by McKinsey, the Brookings Institution and others about how the pandemic has disproportionately affected women, especially women of color. So obviously, this is affecting our our team members, and they are feeling the impact at work and at home. A report from the Kaiser Family Foundation for women under 30, in particular found that 69% feel that the pandemic has harmed their mental health. So this is affecting our team members in their clinics in the hospitals and our corporate offices. It's something we need to address. And so if we're concerned about a family member or friend, coworker, or ourselves, What are the signs that the issue is more than just the normal day to day blues and blahs? When do we need to seek help? Michelle Constantino  07:07I think anything chronic so you know, we all have our days where we might just want to be left alone and might not pick up our phone or want to do something social. So that's, you know, normal, like I just want to kind of relax and you know, turn off from the outside world. But when that becomes a consistent pattern, so when you see someone doing that days on end, maybe coming home from work, and just isolating in their room, not picking up their phone, or missing work, you know, days of not showing up or not performing well. And, you know, your appetite changes, you can be more or less hungry for days. It's usually I mean depression, you see it, they say it's typically about two weeks. And that's when you want you want to know that something's going on. What else changes, um, you might sleep more, you might sleep less you you your sleep cycle can get disrupted, you might wake up really early or have middle the night awakening. So those are lots of signs and symptoms. Becky Knight  08:11So considering that mental health has long been difficult to access for many people, What tips do you have for how to access the help that you need? 08:24A couple ways to reach out for help are I mean, you can always just, you know, talk to a friend. At Novant, you can go through your employee assistance program. If you work for the hospital, you can see a therapist for free. You can also just call your insurance company, like call the number on the back of the card and they will tell you providers that accept your insurance. There is a website also psychologytoday.com. I love this website. When I've had a therapist in the past, it's honestly how I have found my therapist. You can go type in your zip code, you can check box, your insurance company and whatever you want to work on. Or you don't have to check any of those things. But you can see if you're working on depression, anxiety, just like life adjustments, relationship issues. And then it will populate profiles with pictures. And so you can read people's profiles see their picture and kind of get a feel for who might be a match for you. And then you can just email them or call them. And usually most therapists will give you like a free like consult. And so you can see if they're a good fit. And that's like the number one most important thing is to have a good rapport and a good relationship with your therapist. If you connection, you're probably not going to want to keep talking to them. So interview people . Interview and find a good connection. Becky Knight  09:46Do you have any tips for maybe for those of us who are working in healthcare, why it's so important to not stigmatize mental health and also for those who want to, you know, seek help, how to not let that be a barrier to them. It's okay to talk to somebody, it's okay. And it doesn't mean that somebody even has a diagnosis. And even if they do have a diagnosis, that's okay too. But don't make assumptions about anybody, like, you don't know what's going on in their personal lives. Like, they could have lost a family member during COVID. And they're supposed to sit there and dealt with that on their own like, it's okay, if they need to go talk to a therapist. A lot of mental health diagnoses are inherited. So there's a high percentage of you getting a disease from your family line. And when that happens, there's nothing you can do to change that, chemically speaking, right? You get your.. we all get what we get. And so what you can do is get support. And that looks like the right medication management. And I always say to my patients who come in and they're opening up for the first time I tell them, if you have asthma, you would use your inhaler to breathe, right? If you have diabetes, you take your insulin, so your sugar levels are where they need to be right? And so literally what mental health is hormonal imbalances in your brain. And so medication literally helps bring your hormones to where they need to be. There's a feedback loop between the brain and the body that works all day long to regulate all of our hormones. And sometimes that feedback loop just has a little miscommunication. And what medication does is get that communication back on track. So there's nothing wrong with that.  And any last words of wisdom or encouragement for folks to get the help that they might need? You're changing generations of dealing with mental health from, you know, maybe unhealthy coping to healthy coping, and people are changing that for their children as well. And I think it's a beautiful thing when someone can reach out and get help and make those changes. And so I think just you know, thinking about it, just like any other medical condition, you want your friend to take care of their bodies, they need to take care of their minds too. Dr. Michelle Constantino, thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom with us. And thank you to my earlier guests, Tanya, as well from New Hanover Regional Medical Center. I know that this will be useful information for many people. So thank you so much. Ashleigh Hargrave  12:28Thanks for listening to mosaic your podcast for diversity, inclusion and equity and Novant Health. Stay tuned for our next exciting episode.

Kevin Liles didn't co-found 300 Entertainment just to sell it. He created it, first and foremost, to fill a void he saw in the music industry — a lack of talent development. Ten years after starting the 300 record label, it's safe to say Kevin and company filled that void. By developing culture-shifting artists like Gunna, Megan Thee Stallion, Young Thug, among others, 300 has become one of the hottest commodities in all of hip-hop. This led to WMG buying the formerly-independent label for $400 million at the start of the new year.In WMG, Kevin believes he's found a partner with the “mindset of an independent, but the muscle of a major.” As the one-time EVP of WMG, Kevin would know this first-hand. And even with an influx of $400 million, Kevin isn't going to change the way he makes decisions. For Kevin, it's always been about prioritizing the cultural incentives rather than the financial ones. This mindset has followed him from Def Jam intern to its President and now as CEO of 300 & Elektra Music Group.In-between running the label, Kevin has also invested resources in creating a pipeline for future music and entertainment execs with diverse backgrounds. In particular, Kevin has tapped into HBCUs, helping set up a $250 million fundraising campaign for his alma mater, Morgan State, and connecting students directly with the FBI.   Kevin and I covered a lot of ground in this episode of the Trapital. Here are the show chapters:[3:23] Behind 300 Entertainment's Sale To Warner Music[8:29] Gunna's Meteoric Rise [10:29] How Phrases Like Hot Girl Summer & Pushin P Became A Thing [13:08] What Changes With WMG Partnership? [15:58] New Def Jam Video Game In The Works? [17:27] Launching 300 Studios [20:17] Kevin Thinks The Best Is Yet To Come For Hip Hop[22:10] Hip Hop's International Opportunity [24:23] Major Differences Between Running Def Jam vs. 300 [28:10] The Power Of Diverse Execs Making Cultural, Not Financial Decisions[30:25] How Music Industry Has Handled Diversity Issues Since George Floyd[31:00] Kevin's Attempt To Create Diverse Talent Pipeline[32:14] The Rise Of Hip-Hop Media Personalities[40:35] Young Thug's Role As Chief Innovation Officer[43:49] Keeping Narrative On The Future, Not PastThis episode is brought to you by Koji, the best “link in bio” tool. It is trusted by Grammy winners, chart-topping hitmakers, and more. Join 185,000+ creators. Check it out for free: koji.to/trapitalpodcastListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Kevin Liles, IG: @kevinlileskwl, Twitter: @KevinLiles1  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop's biggest players by reading Trapital's free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands_____TRANSCRIPTIONKevin Liles 00:00When you put diverse people at the head of the company, and you allow that person to make cultural decisions and not financial decisions on something that they don't know, so that young people run a company, they don't know they might go to a concert, but they don't know when a kid could come in, like I came in. And I saw Russell, I said, “Oh, he's the boss.” So you mean if you're the boss, you can move stuff that you want to people not only want to be an employee or work in music, no, they want to run companies. And until we as an industry, and really this is not just about the music industry, this is about the world. Until a CEO that looks like them, act like them talk like them, you know, that's when you unleash the true power of where we are in our culture.Dan Runcie 00:56Today's episode is with Kevin Liles, the Chairman and CEO of 300 Entertainment and Electro Music Group. Kevin's been one of the most influential record label executives of the past few decades. He ran Def Jam for seven years in the late 90s, early 2000s. And almost 10 years ago, he started 300 Entertainment, which he just sold to Warner for a $400 million deal. So we talked about everything that went into that decision, what it was like to sell the record label what a partnership with Warner looks like and how the record label can maintain its independent spirit under the umbrella of native record labels. We also talked about Gunner and how he's having one of the biggest years in hip hop right now and Pusha P and everything with that. We talked about Megan Thee Stallion and we talked about Thug. Did you know that Thug is Chief Innovation Officer at 300? When we talked all about that and what that means and a whole lot more. He also gave us the latest update on Def Jam Vendetta. You know the people that ask him at Def Jam Vendetta, they want to see the video game come back through. So we talked about that. We also talked to broader about IP. If you follow me on social media, you know that I want to see the story to hip hop record labels get the same type of TV anthology breakdowns that we're seeing now about Thera Nose and WeWork and Uber I want to see the same about Def Jam and Bad Boy and Rockefeller. And we talked a little bit about that too. It was a great conversation. I think it's always inspiring to talk to one of the most influential execs in hip hop that I believe really helped to make this culture what it is. Here's my chat with Kevin Liles. All right, today we got co-founder and CEO with 300. Entertainment Kevin Liles with us today. Hey, Kevin, I got to give you a shout out man, it feels like you've had one of the strongest starts to this year sold the record label, Gunner's hit starting the year off strong. How does it feel?Kevin Liles 02:43It feels like another day at the office. People ask me all the time, Kevin, what's new, every day is new. Every day is a new opportunity. God woke me up and I feel there's a bigger purpose. And I feel the steps that we take, I don't look for number one albums, I don't look for to be, accolades or to be the best this or anything. I really just strive on doing this work that day. And I joke with somebody I said no with me, I'm never gonna be up too upset, they'll never be too sad. I will flow like water. And water is a very powerful thing because it helps grow. It changes direction with the most people around the world. So I feel like what is great about me.Dan Runcie 03:23I hear that. So talk to me a bit about the sale because that made big news, there was rumors about it happening towards the end of 2021. But walk me through that process. When did you first think about selling 300 and what went into the decision for you?Kevin Liles 03:39I never thought about selling. I don't build things to sell. I'm a serial entrepreneur, but I build things to change the world. And I find a void. And the void was the creation of 300 co-founders, the void was there was no true artist about it. When we talk about our students. I'm not just talking about developing a sound or developing of a person I'm saying we're raising young kids, young men, and women into the world. And so they need to have some have dads and we have moms and we had by my dad, but some have not, you know around them. So we need to be of service to their growth. So when people say what are you thinking about selling, I always was thinking about who was my best partner that I could have the independent of my mindset of independent, but the muscle of a major who's the best partner that independence will be in their DNA, who's the best partner that I could actually administer around the world, the good, the bad, the right the wrong and treat the body want to be treated. And so I'm not for sale. 300 as an entity I sold because I wanted entrepreneurs to learn what intrapreneurship was to add what tools in a toolboxes around the world, but you know, people can't be sold a company what I did was sold an asset that I felt could be a bigger asset to the world. I'd say do you think Steve, isn't a Jeff Bezos is still sitting in his garage. No. Do you think that guys are still in a dorm room? Yeah, I mean, Zuckerberg in a dorm room? No, no, we actually have a great idea, a great business, we're acquiring things, starting different things. So I believe the sale is something that people put too much emphasis on. Now, with that being said, I wanted also to create history. So if you think about Motown selling for 61 million, if you think about Def Jam, selling for 140 million on the face, on 425 million getting sold for 325, or even a man selling for 500 million in 27 years, eight years, we sold a company for $400 million. And so to me, I also think about legacy and history and what that means. So if people want to talk about the sale, talk about it in a way, that is historic for an African American, historic for a company, but it's also profitable for shareholders. And as a CEO, you know, we got to make sure the shareholders and the board a great, but I think the culture needed to see that it is a possibility to build something, sell something, become a bigger brand by doing it, but never lose the mindset of an independent.Dan Runcie 06:13I think that's an interesting good point, because so many of the big, whether it's the catalog sales, or the record label sales that we've seen over the past two years that we've seen this run happen, a lot of them haven't been with executives that are black, or executives that, you know, are just non-white men in general. So I think that the fact that you were able to do that shows and signals not just what you're capable of, but also what your artists are capable of, too. And I think as well on the partnership side, it's interesting because I think that 300, maybe, you know, relative to a lot of the other labels that were independent before people may have thought that “Oh, well. 300 is just as powerful as some of the majors or you know, definitely has the same firepower behind it.” But it sounds like what you're saying is that, yeah, even with all that we've accomplished, there's still more that we can have, you know, with the backing and with the further partnership of a company like a Warner.Kevin Liles 07:11We shocked the world where we had more Grammys than the majors but magazine three Grammys, you know, we shot the world that we put out and we're up against a major and had the number one album in the first week out as this little independent thing, you got to realize all the stuff that's happening now is still stuff we've set up last year. And so as we go into this year, just look for us to be doing hashtag bigger family business, not just family business, but bigger family business.Dan Runcie 07:37Yeah, I hear that. And I think too, talking about the artists that were able to do things, I mean, Ghana has been the poster child so far this year, at least when it comes to hip hop, I mean, not just him getting the number one single but him being the weekend, but then had everything surrounding around Pusha P and everything there. I mean, I assume that has to feel pretty good. Because I think it's so tough, especially in this era, to have superstars and people that are on the verge of superstar status to kind of grow in get there with so much noise and so much other artists that are coming through whether it's independence or others. So the fact that he's able to, you know, not show to he compete, but outsell other superstars, I think shows a lot of not just the potential, but also that this is still possible in this era, we can still have the biggest stars continue to reach further heights.Kevin Liles 08:29Yeah, I think you'd want to talk about true artist development and from the dropping of drip Season One, two, and three, and one. And all those things, you got to realize that young kid was just sitting by bug in the studio learning and he never stopped learning, we never stopped evolving. And when you saw him perform with commitment to balance, open up the brands, you know, one year, he's all things that became attainable to him and through by us the work that went into ds for the thoughtfulness of how it started, ebb and flows of it, of how many girl records should I have on it? What am I trying to say? I can't say I'm dripping. And I'm not really drip. So I have to be in every fashion show or it just you know, the thoughtfulness. We're not just putting out records, if you want to do that, that's not 300. 300 is thoughtful. 300 is taking the time to understand where an artist is in their career. Where is it a mixtape time isn't an album time? Is it collab time? These are all things that because people don't have the relationships with the artists, then if the artists house or going on vacation, they can't really communicate. You know, obviously, you can't hand me something without an owner's name. I have to know everything about it so I can assist. You know, Gunner is more than an RC you can, he's a human being but he's also a very good friend. You know, Evany his manager is not just a manager. She's a system that could be a daughter to me, and I have a responsibility to develop another young woman in our industry. So to me, what are we Pusha P whenever we have Hot Girl Summer, well we attract cooling it or you know, Savage in it, whatever you whatever one you want to a week bad and bougie in it. But everyone you want to pick up. We don't just, you know have moments we make movies.Dan Runcie 10:15I like that you mentioned that because you have had so many I feel like every year every other year, there's some moment that 300 is able to capture some term that they're able to introduce something in the water like power, y'all always the ones that have the terms on lock. Kevin Liles 10:29You know, I think it's a great commentary to the great artists and the great creators and the great executives that we have run if we don't make this shit up. We didn't go to FedWatch and say, Yo, do trap boo. We didn't go to mag and say have a hot girl summer. We don't go to yo, guess what the Gunner we go, Pusha P, that's not how it happens. It happens because we provide a safe place for ideation, creativity, and opportunities for people to fail. But failure is a learning experience. You know, when Marvin Gaye wanted to do what's going on, and it was an appointment, and what his biggest-selling album, it was just where he was in life. ps4 is where Gunner is in life. Punk was where thug was in life. You can't go through manufacture in the ship. And it's not cultural. And if it's not cultural, then it really can't be 300 to me, and that's really the message and one of the great things about being able to take over the electrode of entertainers we've also it's in their ethos, we have great labels like FBI, FDR, Roadrunner, iconic labels that started with founders that had a point of view. And so to me, as long as I have a point of view, as long as it be cultural, as long as I could have the independent mindset, I'm good. And I'm doing it all, again to raise great young men and women, web executives or artists. But I really believe God wakes me up to change the world. I really believe it is not even a question in my mind. And so I want to get better. I want to be a better father, a better operator, a better friend. And if you always challenge yourself that there is more, that there is more to do. If you reimagine and rethink and things you will see God will answer you in so many great way. Do you think that the VR sold a company eight months ago now months ago, Mary Jane, you connected? Did you think she was performing at the Superbowl? Do you think that the Super Bowl, who would be it they'd be run by Jay Z? Do you think that like, we don't make this up? This is I can't tell you, I can just thank God, and thank the people around me for believing that they do have a bigger mission.Dan Runcie 12:37And I think with this too, you build something so special, you talked a lot about that independent spirit that I think carry through with artists development with how your artists became the culture-makers that they are. And I gotta wonder, though, with the partnership with Warner now, of course, you're giving up a little bit of control in exchange for the power, it helps you put behind the artists. But is there any concern or any thought about okay, what will that look like? Or how may that potentially shift if we're seeding some of that control or some of that power?Kevin Liles 13:08Then, you see, I'm the wrong guy to accept because I never felt like I worked in the back. I always feel like give me the mission, give me assignment. And let me do that. Again, great thing about this opportunity, Julie Greenwald. And I ran Def Jam together along with Leah, Julie was an assistant I was starting to enter. So she knows everything about me. She knows where the bodies buried, she knows the good, the bad, the ugly, maximum side I work with as a concrete colleague for 9, 10 years, you know, he knows the good, the bad. And so I'm a position player. So if I need to be the coach to quarterback, the running back, then I have enough tools in my toolbox to play whatever position and so I never give up control. Because nobody does what I do can't keep that and so I never look at it. But we can you know, you have a boss now. Okay, what does that mean? They have a great employee. Oh, Kevin, Kevin, for your artists. They can't know we do what we do. But now we do it. It's hashtag bigger family business that it's just again, I'm not the guy that when you take on additional investment that you change, I believe the thing about 300, thing about Def Jam, these were things that were built out of necessity, and we curated them in a cultural way, not in a financial way. Not we saw a need to do Def Comedy Jam. We saw a need to have fat farm and baby fat. We saw a need to make Def Jam Vendetta and Fight For New York. You know, we saw a need to be heavily involved in political races and important countries. We saw a need that the State's Attorneys in every city can help us change the narrative around who's going while going and why they're in jail and they should be out of jail. We just saw see things because we're out in the streets without it every single day. That doesn't mean everybody has to be Mona, what it means is you have to be in touch with who you are, why you are, what your purpose is. And that is what I challenge. But listen, I don't deal with coke cans and cigars and shit talk back to me. These are real people in, my people know they have the freedom, the freedom to disagree, the freedom to try. And when you have a bunch of risk-takers, like we have in Max and we have and Julie and we have and the rest of the team and I have two great kids and rating Celine that most people wouldn't give them the power that I've given them. But remember, they may be president and CEO of Def Jam at age 30. So, to me, this is just a great opportunity for us to do what we do never change who we are.Dan Runcie 15:42I hear that. And you mentioned Def Jam Vendetta. So we got to talk about that. Because I think it was last year, you put out a little teaser. You said hey, do you all want another sequel? You want another one? So where's that ad? What are you thinking about for the future of the Def Jam video game?Kevin Liles 15:58I don't know if you saw the tweet about it yesterday. But he said, Man, we need another one. Because back and Snoop it oh my god, it's timing. For me. It's working with the right partner. At that time, Electronic Arts was the right partner, they allowed me to curate it without the limitations of “Oh, but we're Electronic Arts. Oh, and you know,” so when I find the right gaming button, and if you're out there, let me know, when I find the right gaming partner that wants to experience gaming in a way that I see it culturally, it'll come back out. But until then, I'll keep having the conversations until I find the right one.Dan Runcie 16:34That makes sense, because I think what we're talking about at the end of the day is just how valuable the IP and the brand is, and everything that you all had created, whether it's what you had done at Def Jam, or what you've now done this past decade with 300 and one of the things I've started to take notice to now is we're this way right now with media TV, where we're seeing all of these TV anthology series about the rise and fall of these tech companies. Right, we got the Theranos one, we got the WeWork one, we got the Uber one. And I want to see the same for the Def Jams and the Bad Boys. And I want to see all of that. And I feel like if we're having the conversations about the video games, it's only going to be a matter of time before we're going to see those as well. We want to get back to the early 2000s Def Jam or the Rockefeller run and see who would all play you all I feel like that's it has to be happening in at least a couple of years.Kevin Liles 17:27So one of the reasons why I created 300 Studios is because I haven't told full stories in a long time. And so you can check the credits for whether it was how high the show ended things that we did back in the day rush hour. And those things that we've been able to be a part of why did I get married a Tyler Perry was daddy's little girl and go down to this though, things that we've been able to help curate. There was a reason why I wanted him studios to not only tell the audio stories around 300, but I wanted to tell digital stories. And I had the great pleasure of finding Kelly Nolan. And they believe in the vision. And you know, within two years, we had our first doc on February 26 called Race, Bubba Wallace. And it was the only African American Cup Series driver and his trials and tribulations of not having any sponsorship to now winning races and changing the current federal flag and mascot. I didn't say hey, here's the script. But here's what's gonna happen NASCAR, here's what you're gonna have a guy come in and actually curate and trust in the brands of 2311 racing, you know, with Jordan, and Denny, Toyota, McDonald's DoorDash, all these things with the background of raising a young kid in a sport that you can't even afford to be in. You know, I mean, you just 20, $30 million, you have to have caused the crash. I know that. So again, I wanted to educate people on the sport but also wanted to take them on a journey that a lot of people have never taken with NASCAR. So I appreciate everything. And yes, there will be a story, there will be more Word docs. And I do plan because I'm going for decades in the business now telling the true stories of all of these iconic brands and iconic people and friends and people who shaped the world and conversation. I do plan on telling the story. Dan Runcie 19:14Yeah, I think people would love to hear that. I feel like that is where things are obviously heading with all of the IP that's being created. And I feel like especially for you all I mean, it's interesting now because we just see the histology of how everything is, you know, we're looking back and people are talking fondly about that late 90s, early 2000s run and it's only going to be a matter of time before people look back at this particular era. Not even just with hip hop, but music more broadly. And just seeing how many shifts this music industry has had. And I feel like the past few years, we're on the verge of another one as well. The revenue has been, you know, the highest that it's been at least since the CD era, and that I think has influenced a lot of these deals that we've seen and we're now seeing all This activity with web three NFTs and everything else. I mean, as someone who has seen it, you know the highs and the lows of it as you said, you know, you're definitely have the you know, be like water mentality. When that said, it must be really exciting to also see all the possibilities of where you could tap into.Kevin Liles 20:17Listen, all I can tell you, I was at the Super Bowl, the biggest stage in the world with Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, Eminem, 50 Cent, Mary J. Blige at the Super Bowl. So if you don't know the possibilities, we have the number one music in the world when they used to tell us, you'll be a fad. They used to say we play more music and less rap. Now everybody's saying we're just stationary hip hop, and Baba, Baba. And everybody when people didn't realize, and I'm sure they're not sure how old you are. But when I was in the car growing up, I was listening to the Temptations, and Diana Ross and Aretha Franklin because that's my Mom, listen to. But now, as adults, what we listen, I listen to hip hop. So that that's been for the last 30 years. So now you have hip hop parents, you have a President of the United States, in Iraq, who knows hip hop, you have mayors and governors and lordships and keep losing, that grew up on hip hop. So you have not seen the greatness of our culture, yet, you're starting to see the seeds being planted. I truly believe that with the continent coming into play with India, coming into play, these underdeveloped nations, oh, man, this will be so many stories to be told, in a way through a hip hop lens. So I'm just excited more say, I just hope they'll still let me be around. As long as God keeps giving these gifts, I'll stay with the rope.Dan Runcie 21:44I hear that, and I think the international expansion is just being so key to so many record labels, moving Making Moves, whether it's in India, in East Asia, in Africa, as well. And I know that you all have, you know, made moves in that perspective as well. What do you see is that opportunity, especially in the next few years? I mean, I know that having Warner behind can definitely help from an international push from that perspective. But what do you see as an opportunity.Kevin Liles 22:10 One of the biggest issues that I was having is I didn't have my Rolodex is 40,000 people, but I only had 75 people working for me, couldn't reach those, I got the calls from the biggest artists in France and the biggest artists in Germany and the biggest artist in London, and I couldn't serve them in a way that they need to be served. Remember, early on, I knew where hip hop was going, Leon Russell, we thought about your Def Jam UK, Def Jam Germany, Def Jam France, Def Jam Japan, we were just too early. And those countries did not have the voice. They didn't have their own voice. They were emulating what we were doing, because we were starting the creation of it. But now you go to any of those major territories, they have their own voice, the biggest artists in that territory is from that territory. It's not us coming there. And so as a proud steward of our culture, I think the opportunity is on steroids right now, because I'm going to be able to not only help artists, but also help creators and executives realize that set up their own iPhones in their own territories, because they can say shit 300 to do that. The guy was this is his third time. Oh, if they can do it, look what we could do. And so we're starting that also. So I can only thank again, you know, Max and Julie for believing in what we're creating, loving, independent spirit, but also remembering that Do It Yourself, DIY thing, nobody does it themselves. You know, that's like saying you gonna have a baby by yourself. No! You will get married by yourself. No, you don't do, you don't do anything by yourself. And there's not one global artists around the world that did it ourselves. So I believe in collaboration, I believe in partnership. But again, the mindset has to be independent.Dan Runcie 23:50I think the piece that you mentioned on the differences of when you're running Def Jam 20 years ago, versus now especially on the international front is key because as you mentioned, a lot of those regions didn't have the developed music ecosystem that they do. So it was often, forget your artists there as opposed to now they have their own superstars. What are some of the other major differences that you've experienced from now being a major label executive in this decade as opposed to what it was like for you Def Jam 20 years ago?Kevin Liles 24:23People didn't notice them. What the fuck was talking about? They didn't understand the cultural thing. They understood the numbers, but they didn't understand what I was somewhere why I would say no, I don't want to pay, when I want to go play a tape in London to small club that I will do that 10 times before I do it. They didn't understand why. I mean, even inside the company, he said, Well, we shouldn't take Trey Songz to London, because he doesn't have the big radio record there. And I'm like, people stream their people buy music. They're people and I know when I go there, and I'm doing 500,000 to 2000 or 5000 people in shows that they just do. He's not developed enough to understand that shit moves without all the triggers sometimes. And so it was funny. We went there, and somebody said, boot camp, you know, I know you want to play, you know, 5,000 seaters, but we sold out two nights on it. So maybe we should start playing arenas? And my answer was no because we're not ready for it yet. Let me keep curating keep going through the process. And seeing and I've seen bands that haven't had one hit, but they can sell out in a real way. And that that to me, I'm so excited. There's a young lady from the UK named Pink Patras that I'm so excited about where she's going her aesthetic who shipped to the capital labor, there's no label you can put on I'm excited that if you take a look at Megan Thee Stallion schedule for the next year, she's paying every major festival around the world. So think about what that what's that gonna do for her development, allow her to become a product of her experiences, not just her limited environment, think about what she's going to write. I remember a long time ago, Lulu, Chris and I went to Africa. And then I hate the song, the best women for Africa. Oh, yeah. Jay Z, and I took our first private plane. And then you start talking about the airport, you don't mean your first trip to the South of France, you don't mean? These are the experiences that allow for great storytelling that allow for evolution, not just of an artist, but also the narrative of the employees and executives that take those journeys with. Dan Runcie 26:30That makes me think too, about snooping around with the music and the beautiful music video and that spot a landmark, you know, like, people want to go there and take pictures and be like, No, I was as powerful. It really is. I mean, for me, one of the other things I think about too, that's just changed so much from you know, back when you're at Def Jam to now with 300 is because of streaming and the Internet and so much, now, people respect much more what you were trying to do then because they realize it and I think obviously streaming helped level a lot of the playing fields side, big hip hop and r&b soul. So many lot, so much black music was able to reach more of its true potential in terms of just how easily it could spread, because there's less gatekeepers, right. And I think I'm interested to see, okay, how that continues to go. And what are the things that may continue to rehab that, you know, whether it's boost further, or have it reach even more of its potential? Because to your point, I agree with that, we still haven't reached the maximum point or we still have it, you know, really been able to have the whole world really tap into what's happening here. So I'm curious to you know, as I'm thinking through what the next decade looks like, what are those things going to be the same way how, you know, streaming and social media help level the playing field for a lot of this genre of music like is whether it's, you know, Web 3.0, or NFTs or the Metaverse is that going to be the next thing that'll help even more of the hip hop artists in r&b and soul reach their full potential. Kevin Liles 28:01It's an output to you so straight that all that shit is good and as always, we evolution that we're going to go from the small two way pages to now the cell phone game and remote control, all that shit, technological change cassette to CD and all that stuff is gonna change our biggest power. And I'm a living example of it is when you put diverse people at the head of the company, and you allow that person to make cultural decisions and not financial decisions on something that they don't know. So that young people run a company, they don't know, they might go to a concert, but they don't know when a kid could come in, like I came in. And I saw Russell, I said, Oh, he the boss. So you mean if you're the boss, you can move stuff that you want to people not only want to be an employee or work in music, no, they want to run companies. And until we as an industry, and really, this is not just about the music industry, this is about the world until the consumers today see a CEO that looks like them, act like them, talk like them, you know, that's when you unleash the true power of where we are in our culture. The C-Suite does not represent what we're selling, and until you get that you're not going to maximize it, but it's coming because I plan on my fucking changes. I'm gonna let them know now that guys, I'm nowhere near done. This is just a, I'm on chapter one. Fuck it. I don't care what what we say. And I'm going to make sure part of my legacy is to make sure I have planted enough seeds that you know, the next CEO, CEOs of tech companies and men of various and this first in that verse, whatever you want to call it, they have representation of a culture that's using it.Dan Runcie 29:38Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned this because I do think that that is what makes the change at the end of the day and that could influence so much it will influence so much. And I'd love to know what your perspective is on the movements or activities that the music industry has done on this front the past two years. So after George Floyd's murder, there was a bunch of announcements and funding that when after the show must be paused, and all of that in the call was exactly what you're saying, we need more black executives that are making decisions that are the ones that are really pushing this culture forward, especially since it's their culture that is making this industry what it is. So how do you feel that that progress has been since a lot of those announcements were made by the industry?Kevin Liles 30:25Not enough, and there's more work to be done. And it's one of the things that we hired a global diversity inclusion, the I would ever call officer named Dr. Smith. And when I came on, he's the first person to reach out, he said, we have $100 million, help me, help us change the world. We're not going to have a department, we're going to create the first-ever DEI Institute, and we're going to train people, we're going to go and find people in the organization and make them leaders in teaching cultural, cultural relevance, as far as it accompany cultural relevance and diversity of mindset and diversity of thought, not just color, we're going to find these change agents. No, I don't make this shit up. There's a lot of work to be done. But the reason that I'm at the more music group, and the reason I chose them is because Steve Cooper and Len Blavatnik have made in their mindset that we're going to change the world, and people who consume our products, who love our artists who buy our T-shirts, we want to have people in the C-Suite that look like them. And so that's a lot of fun work to be done. And once you're you know me, I'm not quiet. So I sit in the room and I tell everybody not charged. I said, “Guys, you can't announce $100 million and do things that don't change things.” Just not check the box. We're not doing it at the Warner Music Group. I never did it. I don't know how to check a box. I know how to create other boxes. I let everybody else do with it. Oh, we just did this? No, no, we created the DEI Institute around pingy equity, which is just amazing man, but a lot of work to be done all across the board. And I challenged every CEO, every chairman, every shareholder of a major corporations to challenge the company to allow that diversity to be in the C-Suite. It will change the company and it changing the company, will make more money. Dan Runcie 32:14Couldn't agree more. And I think too, this speaks to a lot of the work you've done, even you know, outside of just you know, running the music part of the record label, you've been active with HBCUs as a graduate of wind that you've wanted to make sure that mentorship programs and entrepreneurship supporting programs are there because you see that pipeline that you want to make sure that whether it's executives that want to go on to succeed in music or other places, the more that you can use your platform to help them the better off they'll be.Kevin Liles 32:44I think it's very important. I did a centennial raise from Golden State. Dr. Rosso, shout out to Florida State HBCU person myself, and we raised $250 million. So we knew that was the biggest institutional raise of HBCU went on to had a big conversation. I speak on a circuit a lot. And it had a big conversation around what's the pipeline to get to be a state's attorney, or a FBI special agent or a CIA, you know what, and really, I didn't know, I got to be a police officer. That's what I saw, you know, but I didn't know I don't be a basketball player, football fan, because that's what I saw. And so another program that I launched two years ago, I think, maybe last year is what I had 60 presidents of HBCUs meet with the head of the FBI, and to show that when George Floyd happened, when Freddy Gary happened, the FBI came, but people who were looking into it, when people like us, they wouldn't play for communities, there was no trust. So I want to make sure before I'm done, there will be somebody every place that will affect our culture, and have a cultural point of view, and not just a title point of view. And so that's been and I'm a big advocate of education and entrepreneurship, I believe the school system should be blown up. And we should be teaching more entrepreneurism, and not teaching people how to go work for somebody, but teaching people how to join and actually want to be change agents and not just employees. So I'm going to continue the big fight between 15 and do the work. And again, I don't do that by myself. So shout out to Dr. Smith.Dan Runcie 34:24That's good to hear. And I mean, I think you're right so much bad taps back into see where the pipeline they see how you can build it up in making sure that that leads to a promising career so people can whether it's they want to be their own boss or they want to do their own form of intrapreneurship whatever it is, the opportunities are there. One thing that I did want to talk about shifting back to music a bit. There's been an interesting movement I think happening right now where there is more of these, I call it the hip hop media personality that has come a bit more to rise and some of them You know, even some of the, you know, the artists that that 300 have definitely pushed back on some of these folks as well for someone, whether it's the things they've said or other things like that, it would be good to hear from your perspective, because I think this is not necessarily that these types of people didn't exist before. But I think social media obviously just makes the dynamic a little different. So what's your take on that dynamic?Kevin Liles 35:21No different than, we used to write on a graffiti walls now, we write it off Facebook, was used to hand out flyers and posters. Now you have Instagram and WhatsApp and this Snapchat and all these things. And when you talk about these personalities, you don't remember Starbuck while how they were. Dan Runcie 35:38They were wild. They were wild.Kevin Liles 35:41You don't remember how if you did any bit of R&B. You had to go to video. So with Donnie Simpson, you don't sit remember how sway and tech can wake up showing them what they were there. They just went on what one thing now with social media, it could be everywhere around the world. And we want those opinions. We want those pushbacks, we want those perspectives, because those things allow us to evolve as people we're not sociated for not some of them, we wouldn't be addressing some of the issues think about what Charlemagne and The Breakfast Club dude don't for mental health, you want that pushback, you want that conversation because we don't want to become stagnant as a people. And so to me, I put your nine out of 10 of my friends, Joe Biden, I signed him to be your I mean, Noriega, drink champion. Besides me, you don't mean to get Fat Joe, us you don't need to go down the list of these guys and girls around the world that have an actor that you need the crazy one, you need him to say what he wants to say, just to be thought-provoking, you know, but if you really get to know him, you know, he's Howard Stern, hip hop. That's his thing. And we don't want to do we don't not have a stern. There might be you do you're like it, you know, but you need the conversation. And I think even, what this happened with the Rogan guy, we need that conversation. As long as it is acceptable for you to use a word that you need the conversation the corporation's needed. And you need a Spotify to say, hey, we made an investment. We're gonna learn from this and teach from this, and you needed him to come on. I don't think he just apologize for his sponsors. I think that he felt that damn, you know, I never thought about it that way. Because I'm just repeating No, but even repeating is wrong. And so this is in the people that listen to him, trust me that backface was going on, they dress it up like this during all the shift is going on still. But I'm open. But I went all the smoke, bring me the motherfucking smoke because I want to have the conversation. I want to and the problem is we don't have the conversation. And so we operate in five items around things. No, I want to taste monster ball soup, which I want you to take some collard greens to I want you to go I want to go to the Trinidad festival and hang out Mardi Gras and all this. But yes, I want you to come to the hood celebration we build into the basketball is that to me, we don't have enough of the intermingling of cultures. And the lack of compensation has led to suicide, the lack of compensation has led to racism. And I knew when Barack Obama spent eight years I said, Oh, the next thing is gonna go left and be extremely other way. And then you got Donald Trump, I knew it was going to go in. But I also knew that we had to swing it back to the middle of the pendulum because he went too far left, and I can't wait to see some of the great leaders that will be born and find out of the conversation. You know, I always say we're living in biblical times. And was Moses, just a farmer competence was Job justice was married justice. No, damn, Max was the prophet. That shouldn't be a book of Acts, that shouldn't be a book of Jay, it shouldn't be a book of Todd. Because in these biblical times that we're in right now, when Moses parted the Red Sea for other people to get, there were some casualties of war. I gave my only begotten Son for us to move forward. And believe two people don't relate what we're going through as true biblical scriptures because we haven't put them all together. We call it the Bible. But there was a George Floyd in the Bible. There was a Freddie Gray in the Bible, and God bless their families and their soul. And all of them have taken on the mantle and said, his death, her death, this moment is meant to shift culture. It's meant to get people thinking a different way. And that's why again, I applaud all the noise, all the smoke, all the conversations that I have to have, and I do have a smile.Dan Runcie 39:30That's a good point because if we think about the evolution of Howard Stern, I think about the evolution of a Charlemagne there's kind of this like, you start off and you say, the stuff that makes you be like, What did he just say? And then like, a few years later, I mean, you listen to more recent Howard Stern interviews, I mean, he sounds like you know, almost like a therapist on the couch, like, you know, just talking through things and we said similar stuff about Charlemagne, given some of the books that he's written and just how much of a topic that is for him, and he definitely doesn't do interviews the way he did back in 2013. All right, is the evolution there? So thinking about it in that perspective, yeah, we'll be very interested to see like, where ACC or you know, where some of the others are, you know, seven years from now because I think I agree with you, you know, I don't necessarily think that, you know, he is a bad person or anything like that. I think if anything, it's more so this is a product of the internet and what everything has incentivized no different than, you know, Starbuck wild were incentivized to say wild shit on you know, power and you know, back in the day, and then now, you know, whether it's activated on twitch or on YouTube or whatever channel, yes. Kevin Liles 40:35You got to be doing it for rabies. He's doing it for reach. He's doing it. It's so much noise out there that you have to sometimes it's like, our chief innovative officer is Young Thug, so Young Thug, wearing a dress that people know I'm fashion, fashion shouldn't be limited, you know, but think about prints with his ass out. Think about Michael Jack and think about these guys. And again, why shouldn't we allow people to have an opinion to that that's the problem I have with a lot of people. People are really afraid of freedom. Because freedom comes check too, there's good and bad and freedom. But you're free. You're free to say and be and act and we should not judge. But we should know that people are doing things for certain reasons. The bigger your audience becomes, the bigger your reach, the bigger you become. And we can't just have Howard there by himself, can't get him broken down by itself. So what did they do to get there? What did they do to get there? I got Russell call me 10 times.Dan Runcie 41:35Oh, man, I do want to talk quick because yeah, I was gonna ask you about Thug being Chief Innovation Officer. So what does that role include? So what's what's on the agenda?Kevin Liles 41:45Change the world, change the perspective, change the conversation, changed the ideation process, don't limit yourself be as free of a person as you can be. And I actually run stuff by him. I'm thinking about doing a hot challenge with HBCUs. And my goal is to help these bands raise money. So I want to do $25 A night and campus did it. I did some around Pusha P and I kept that's not p. I said to him, I think we should do you know, I have family business. But I think you are the biggest family with lash out. So we made it out. When you have an innovative officer, there's no limitations. There's no job description, it's to touch taste and tone of his very existence that allows people to come up with new ways and things to do. You know, when Mary J. Blige said good morning, gorgeous. It was therapy for that young person that gets bullied, but it was also therapy for her coming off the ship that she came off for. And I kept her I said, guys, this is not a song. This is going to help people get through life. And people have started adopting it and dads are now looking at their daughter saying good morning, gorgeous, looking at their wife that they take for granted in the morning, and saying good morning. Gorgeous. I don't make this shit up. Everybody, be free. And Thug, I'll check with you later on about what I'm thinking about next. Make sure I got the cool factor on it. Dan Runcie 43:08Love it. Yeah, make sure he doesn't treat you like that pirate. He said, Alex, you're up.Kevin Liles 43:15You couldn't make shit up. You couldn't make none of this up. You know what I mean,Dan Runcie 43:19It's beautiful. Yeah, I mean, perfect timing for that. I mean, and just lining up with the album and everything. That was perfect.Kevin Liles 43:25But it was not scripted. It was really cool. People started to show up the shows without you posted this thing. Dan Runcie 43:36Oh, man, that's what you know, you got a movement as well. You know, you got something. I will. Kevin, this has been great. Before we let you go though, is there anything else that you want to plug? Let the travel audience know about that 300 Hands on Deck.Kevin Liles 43:49I don't know if it's a plug. But I'm in search of the truth. There's a lot of talent in the world. And the reason why I feel what it means we partnership 300, Electra Entertainment, Sparta, 300 Studios, I'm creating possibilities and platforms for you guys to come and help change the world. So I would just like to enlist your audience to say you don't just have to be an artist. You don't have to just do marketing, or digital or finance or legal. There is some place for you with us. And so I'm sure I'll come in and hang out and you and I finally get in the same space. We can have a dinner, but let's keep the narrative or where we going not where we were.Dan Runcie 44:33Sounds good. And yeah, let's definitely do it. And Kevin, thanks again for coming on. And congrats to you again on great start to the year, big sale and everything. Keep trailblazingKevin Liles 44:42God bless you, man. Thank you. Appreciate it.Dan Runcie 44:44Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

It's no secret that touring is the lifeblood of most modern-day musical artists. But while most fans only see the finished product — a head-bobbing performance at Coachella or a sold-out nightclub — few get a glimpse into the behind-the-scenes work being done by professionals like Kevin Shivers, a partner in WME's music division. Let this interview with Kevin be your inside look at what goes into the live performances that fuel the entire music industry.Kevin has been with WME since 2008 after a stint in Hollywood. While with WME, he's worked with stars such as Tyler The Creator, Summer Walker, Kid Cudi, and plenty more on their touring strategies. Of course, Kevin's world — much like every other industry — was dealt a massive blow during the past two years. But with live shows seemingly back (knock on wood), Kevin has his eyes toward the future.And the future is an even better fan experience, says Kevin. NFTs, virtual concerts, removing the frictions of going to a real-life show — these are all ongoing evolutions that will better connect superfans with their favorite artists. We covered this near-term future in our interview, plus a whole lot more.Episode Highlights[2:15] How Kevin Broke Into The Entertainment Business [4:00] How Has the Music Business Changed In The Past Two Years? [5:25] The Go-Forward Plan For 2022[6:40] What Spurred Tyler The Creator's Big 2021[9:35] What Data Goes Into Entering New Touring Markets [13:10] Festival Strategies With Artists[14:56] How Has Streaming Changed Touring Trajectory[17:10] The Biggest Touring Mistake[18:30] Social Media's Influence On Touring[19:30] Touring Difference Between Hip Hop And R&B[21:02] How Kevin Measure Success For Himself [23:00] Why Kevin Is So Vested In Mentorship[25:19] Diversity & Inclusion Initiatives Within The Music Industry [28:46] The Impact Web 3.0 Will Have On The Music Industry[31:20] Will Virtual Concerts Replace Live Shows?[32:30] Five-Year Predictions For Music Touring[34:43] How Many Days Will Kevin Spend At Shows In 2022?[35:40] How Do You Find The Next Musical Star?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Kevin Shivers, Instagram: @bellmeadallstar  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop's biggest players by reading Trapital's free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands_____Transcription: The Future Of Live Music with Kevin Shivers, Partner at WMEKevin Shivers 00:00You gotta ask yourself after arenas, then what? Where are you going after that? I mean, like, you know, you might already have that plan in your head, but like these careers are, it's a marathon, not a sprint.Dan Runcie 00:18Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast! I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Kevin Shivers. He's a partner at WME, and he represents some of the biggest artists in the game like Tyler, the Creator, Summer Walker, and more. We talked about how he was able to maximize the big year that Tyler had last year. I feel like Tyler headlined so many music festivals, and had so many appearances. Kevin talks about what it took to make that happen, especially given how turbulent things were with COVID, and all of the restrictions and variants that came through and how he was able to still make it happen. We talk more broadly about music festivals in the strategy that Kevin has for making sure his clients can get certain buildings on the roster. We also talked about Summer Walker and how he was able to do the same for her. Then, we talked more broadly about what it's like as a black executive, especially in representing artists. There are not too many people at agents that are at Kevin's level that look like Kevin, so we talked about that. Some of the advocacy work and mentoring and giving back that he's done and he's prioritized in his career, and so much more. It was great to have Shivers on here. I hope you enjoy this. Here's my chat with Kevin Shivers. All right, today, we got one of the most powerful agents in the game. Kevin Shivers partner at WME. Welcome to the pod, feels like we're long overdue.Kevin Shivers 01:49Thanks for having me, Dan. It's a pleasure. Dan Runcie 01:51Yeah, it's funny because I feel like this time of the year, I always see the festival posters come up for all of the music festivals. And I'm sure you've seen the one where they replace the names of the festivals with the agencies that they're all part of. And whenever I see the WME, I'm like: Man, Kevin was on his game this year. Kevin Shivers 02:10It's definitely not all me, man. There are so many great agents at work here. Happy to be a part of this team. Dan Runcie 02:15So you've been in the game for a while now. But let's take a step back. Because I know you've been working at the agency for some time. But what was it that first attracted you to the business?Kevin Shivers 02:27I had to say it was my mother. When I was a kid growing up, my mother would drag my brother out of movies every weekend. And that's the first time in my head where I got: Wait, I would love to work in entertainment because I love the movie so much. My mother loves movies so much. Even during COVID, she was still going to the movies. And that's like the really, my first interest into the business. When I graduated from high school, I went to college at University of Texas. I majored in film with the plan of moving out to LA and being a producer. And I did move out to Los Angeles, I started interning at The Weinstein Company at the time. And then I went on to this Company Cost of Beanie films, they had a deal at Weinstein. And from there, I kind of entered into the film business, and I got my first taste into: This is not for me, this is not what I want to do in my life. Partly because I was really bad at my job, like I tried, but I didn't want to read 30 scripts a week. This is not what I wanted to do. And then I pivoted, I left there. And I went to this place called Cats Media Group, which is like they did TV sales. And I knew that, that wasn't long term. And I went there to stay in Los Angeles, and to figure it out. And from there, I figured out I wanted to be an agent and WME. I had some experience in music and in Austin like going to shows. I knew a promoter, this guy Charles Adler, Ramsay Three. And at the time, it was the William Morris Agency. And that's my first interest into entertainment. Dan Runcie 03:56Nice. And I feel like the past year and a half, almost two years now. It's probably been unlike any other time period since you've been in this. What's that been like for you?Kevin Shivers 04:05You mean like COVID, and the ways impacted shows? It's been wild, right? Like if I go back to 2020, there was so much going on in the picture of even the world and in all of our lives. You had George Floyd, you had Trump and you had COVID and uncertainty. So 2020, being an agent, it was moving shows from the beginning of the year to the end of the year. That doesn't work for all the social things that are going on in the world to 2021. The first six months were kind of the same of 2020, and the first light in the tunnel I think was Rolling Loud, like Rolling Loud played, and then Lollapalooza was maybe a week or two later. And then you start seeing Austin City Limits and Outside Lands playing off in some tours. And then we started; it started to make sense, then Omicron came along, and we're like back for a period of time back at square one. But it seems like 2022 is gonna bring a lot of joy, you know. Shows are planned, Superbowl is happening in a few days, Pro Sports are going along. So it seems a lot of positivity.Dan Runcie 05:10What do you think will be different for 2022 and 2023 thereafter? Because I feel like it'll be this gradual shift where eventually things will start to feel like the touring schedule is maybe back to somewhat of what it was before COVID. But how long do you think that will really be like? What do you think will be the first year that we can look back at and say: Okay, this is the first year that doesn't feel like it was impacted in any way?Kevin Shivers 05:36I think there's some hope in 2022. If we just changed the way that we're thinking that this is the new world. Things might pop up, the virus might flare back up and flare back down. But let's try to figure out how to move forward. I think I'm starting to see that people are out and about in shows, they are playing sports, you know. The NFL season went through the whole season, they had ups and downs. And I think that like we're starting to see some positivity, lots of hope for 23. Hopefully 23, we get back to some sort of, or we get to some sort of a new normal, where we're living in this new world, and we're just going with the punches.Dan Runcie 06:12I hear that. So I think the good thing for you though is that even, until we got to that point, you've been moving a lot. And I know that Tyler the Creator is one of your bigger clients and 2021 was a big year for him. Headlined a bunch of festivals, dropped his album. What was it like making sure that everything could line up and that you could have everything set for him despite everything else that was going on with the touring business?Kevin Shivers 06:38First of all, I want to say Tyler's a star and a one of a kind of talent, and he knows exactly what he wants. I'm lucky to be a part of his team, and he has an excellent team around them. It starts with the managers Chris and Kelly Clancy, who are amazing people. The business manager, Joe Colone, amazing lawyer, my partner James Ruby, who does International Day watch after her at the agency and all the other people that touchTyler. But 21 was a great year; we got the headline target the headlines for festivals, but it was also we had some goals from, it was also challenging. First thing is the record comes, the record is amazing and it's also finding a window when we can go on sale when COVID is not surging, and I think that the team and I,we all got lucky because we found a window.We knew Tyler was going to headline Lollapalooza and the goal was after you get all the media, the media hype coming from Lolla. We knew he was going to bring an amazing show; that Monday after Lolla, finding that window where we can go on sale and luckily for us, no COVID spikes out Lolla, nothing crazy. And there's no COVID spikes in the world. So that was the first thing, right? I think the second thing when we thought about touring, is trying to find the markets for him to play Tyler, somebody that wants to push the envelopes. And we ended up putting up 35 arenas, breaking in some new markets. I saw last night a show in San Diego. He was like: I could have done 50 shows. I mean, granted, it was nice to have, you know, the tour. And I was like: Okay, we'll see how you feel at, like, night 33 or something. But we were able to break into new markets. Columbus, Vegas, El Paso, Pittsburgh, to name a few. I think the third thing is that Tyler really, really wanted to give the fans the ultimate experience. This is the lineup: Teezo Touchdown, Vince Staples, Kal Uchis. And I think the last thing is, you know, making sure that we hit the sweet spot in pricing. So we, you know, give the fans a place where they can feel happy, a place where they can buy tickets, but also maximizing the gross, keeping ticket sales in the gross. And this was a joint effort with the managers, Chris and Kelly, Michelle Bernstein, who's an excellent marketing ticketing person and AG team led by Cody over there.Dan Runcie 08:56Talk to me a bit more about the new markets and picking those.You mentioned in Pittsburgh, you mentioned El Paso. What are the data that insights are the field that you look for when you're like: Hey, this is somewhere that we want to consider going to that we haven't gone before. And if we do it, is this the type of venue that we should go in this market as opposed to somewhere like LA or New York where he's already proved himself? Kevin Shivers 09:20Well, I think there's a few things, so one is whenever Tyler, any of my clients, I'm always trying to figure out, I want them to play as many places that they can. Just reach all the fans and maximize the opportunity we're on the road because if it's a Tyler recording or whoever it is, or Cody, you're not gonna get to see them every single year. That is a unique experience. But to answer your direct question, it's one looking at the data if it's from Spotify, or our past sales. Two is looking at the markets and seeing if there's a building or venue that makes sense like Columbus. We know that's a place, there's a college town where Tyler's played there before, played there, sold out. I think a smaller room on the onsale, knew there was demand, didn't realize, I mean, the Columbus sales are insane. But this didn't realize like: Wow, that's, I mean that is really like that's a smaller market that has turned into a market, right? I think it's looking at our diverse lineup of talent on the bill, you know, going to a place like El Paso and looking at: Oh, there's probably going to be some Kali fans, and Vince fans and Teezo fans, right? That's a good place. And that's also a place that doesn't get a lot of entertainment. So like, and that ended up being like a home run. So it's like, kind of looking at the whole picture of what you got and talking to a lot of people that are smarter than you in kind of coming up with a plan. And also just working with good people that have a point of view.Dan Runcie 10:47What are the trade-offs that you have to make for those kinds of decisions? Because I imagine that there's the ones that do cross the threshold to be like: Okay, let's make this happen. But you know, kind of like you were saying before, it's tough to try to do 50 shows in a specific short amount of run or whatever it may be. What are some of those considerations you may have to make in terms of the markets that you can't pick? Or the ones you know, that you may not be able to put in this time, right?Kevin Shivers 11:11I think there are a few things. One, it's like really talking to your clients and letting them know, we might, we're going to try to go in this market. This possibility, it might not go the way that we want, but we have to, to me if you're not trying if you're not putting risk on the line, and what are we doing, right? It's like, I'm actually somebody who's okay with failing, right? And I'm not saying that we fail or anything, but I'm okay with doing that risk for the bigger reward. So it's like really, really like getting in there and talking to them about, you know, the strategy, right? And like, the goal, I think the goal should be like, when you go out every two, three years is gaining new fans, gaining that new network.Dan Runcie 11:50Right, especially now. I feel like for someone like him, it's probably been interesting. I know, you've been with him to see the rise and just to see how the fan base has continued to evolve over time. So I imagine he probably even sees things where he's like: Okay, these are the Tyler fans that ,you know, have been with me since the Globin days. If I go to this city versus, you know, you go to this other city. They may not have discovered me as much until Flower Boy or something like that. I'm sure he does. Yeah, it's fascinating. And I think with him too, if we talk a bit more about the festival side of things, he obviously was a headliner, as you mentioned, his Lollapalooza show was broadcasted. I didn't go to the show, but I was able to see it through Hulu, because they had it coming through there. When you're trying to have someone like him, obviously, you have many different artists and they have different levels that they may want to perform at. And ideally, you want to have everyone maximizing and performing at the highest level or being like the highest row on that festival poster. But for someone like Tyler, is it going into the year like: Hey, headline or buster; if we can't be a headliner for this festival, we're not going to do it. Or does it depend on who some of the others are? What are those conversations like? Kevin Shivers 13:07I think when you start a campaign with any artist, it's just like sitting down with the team and figuring out what the goals are, right? And it's all a trajectory and building on the last. I think you want to, the goal is always to build on the last time you were out, to build on the last year, right? And having that conversation. And you know, different artists have different things. Some people want to specifically target these particular festivals, or you know, you're going out in his window, and you could maybe use a festival to route in and out to get the gross-up for the whole tour. It's just like, really just, it's really spending time with the client spending time with the manager to find out, figure out what the goal is in maximizing the opportunities.Dan Runcie 13:49Is it any tougher to do that though? The way that artists can just rise so fast now, especially in the streaming era. Because I know that there's normally the standard, you know, you do your clubs, you can do a, you know, ballrooms or amphitheaters, and then maybe if you get to arenas or stadiums, that's their trajectory. But with people just getting so big, so fast, does that change the dynamic? Or it's like: Okay, how do you still balance what they may have done last time and use that as a reference point versus how quickly they can rise in this era?Kevin Shivers 14:19I mean, look, you have to have a point of view, and you have to have a plan. And you have to have some thoughts, right? And I think that people can really jump up really, really quickly. But we like to use this thing: don't skip steps, right? You know, sometimes if, you know, you can go play in an arena, why not go play multiple nights at a smaller room and build the momentum, build a buzz, meet people on the streets, leaving, not being able to get to the show. So that when you come back around, you still have gas in the tank. I mean, there's no one size fits all plan. It's like, you have to just know who you're working with, spend time and really kind of draw that. Draw that sketch up and map it out and let it listen. A plan is just a, it's just a roadmap. It can be amended along the way. There's no like set in stone thing, but other than like, no knowing where you want to go, knowing what you think, you know, going to be doing the next year, the next five years. That is what's most important.Dan Runcie 15:13That makes sense. And that reminds me of something I heard. I think it was Olivia Rodrigo, who said in some recent interview when he announced her tour. And someone must have asked her something along the lines of: Hey, you had one of the biggest years in pop music this past year, could you have done arenas? And I think she said that same line, you said: I don't want to skip any steps. This is where that is. So I think that's something that definitely rings true. And we're seeing examples of that.Kevin Shivers 15:39Yes. And you gotta ask yourself after arenas, then what? Where are you going after that? I mean, like, you know, you might already have that plan in your head, but like these careers are, it's a marathon, not a sprint.Dan Runcie 15:49So what do you think are some of the mistakes that artists can make? Like, I mean, you don't have to drop any names. You don't got to put anybody on blast. But is there anyone that you think maybe made a touring misstep? Or there's something where you can look back and be like: Ah, if they had done that a little differently, things could have worked out a little bit, you know, whether it's better or worse, or however for them.Kevin Shivers 16:09I think sometimes when people overthink it and end up doing nothing, that's like a bummer for everybody. That's a bummer for the artist. That's a bummer for the fan, that's a bummer for the culture, like, like you're hot, you're popping right now. We really need to see you really, really need to see you show up and pull up on us and see what you have. I think that, that's a mistake, not a mistake, but that's just a bummer for everybody. We want to see, we want to see you do your thing. And I would love it if instead of doing nothing that artists, sometimes people would do something.Dan Runcie 16:39So you think part of it is that there's a hesitancy to try to capture the moment, or sometimes they can be a bit more resolute or hesitant to do things when there is an opportunity to go back out there.Kevin Shivers 16:51Or they just don't know, or they just are trying to get it perfect. And like, you know, you're going to we're all going to make mistakes, there's going to be ups and downs. I think sometimes you just got to go play, you know, you got to give the fans what they want.Dan Runcie 17:04Do you think any of this has become any more challenging in the social media era? Because one thing that I've heard both on the talent side is that artists are even more so particular about how everything looks from a live perspective, because that shot that goes on Instagram or that shot that goes on Tik Tok, that influences ticket sales, especially from, you know, whether it's the first show or whatever it is. Do you feel like artists are feeling like they need to have things more perfect even though deep down, you know, that it shouldn't be that way?Kevin Shivers 17:33I mean, it's got to be really, really tough because the cameras are always on somebody always, you know, whether you like it or not, is documenting things that you do. So I think that I couldn't even imagine how much pressure that is and how tough that has to be. You know that social media can be good. And there can be some other sides where you're like: Wow, this is tough.Dan Runcie 17:52Yeah, I know, we've talked a lot about Tyler and about hip hop overall. But I know another one of the major artists you represent is Summer Walker. And you know, she had a big year, last year as well. And I wanted the differences whether you're planning a tour for, or you're planning live events, in general, for R&B artists, as opposed to someone in hip hop.Kevin Shivers 18:14I don't think there's really many differences, I just think you have to just, it goes back to the same. There's no any artist planning and really just get, you know, in figuring out what the goals that they have and how you can best service them, right? I don't really think there's a different strategy or a different lane. I think if you love Summer Walker, you love Summer Walker, you're gonna go out and see it, right? And she has, she has an incredible fan base.Dan Runcie 18:40Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Because one of the things I was wondering with someone like her.Knowing how passionate her fan base is, I was wondering if there was a connection of like: Oh, you know, the streams may show this and the data may show this, but because of how R&B fans are, there may be a bit more likelihood that that could translate to ticket sales or purchases as opposed to other genres.Kevin Shivers 19:02You know, I think the fans are going to come out that they love somebody and Summer respects our fans. People like Summer Walker followers, or they just, they love her. I think they're just going to come out and show up and see her play.Dan Runcie 19:14Now. That's real, that makes sense. So for you, I mean, I know, you got a full roster, and you're always making sure that you can maximize them to the best of their abilities. So how do you measure success for yourself as a partner and as someone that's representing them on their behalf? Kevin Shivers 19:30The answer is really simple: Helping others, right? I got into this business because I wanted to help artists grow. And it's like, it starts with the clients like you start thinking about, about people that I work with, like: What can I do to help them? What can I do to help them grow or give them everything that they need? Are we, you know, from last year to this year? Are we showing up every day to help them get to that next level? That's the first thing. I think also the way I measure success. It's like the same thing with helping others. Like it starts for me every day when my assistant Ebony, I think she's gonna be a great executive one day, but am I showing up for her? Do I slow down enough to answer her questions? Do I mentor her? Do I spend time with her? Because like, that's important to me. We have many, many amazing young agents that work here. Am I showing up enough to help them sign up clients? Am I giving them what they need? I think you know, measuring success. Is everybody around you doing well? Are you doing what's good for the organization? I co-run hip hop with Zach, Isaac, Caroline and James Rubby. And Caroline's always saying we got to take care of youngs, you know, it's Justin neighbor's getting what he needs? Is Sarah and Ronnie getting what they need? And then I think it's just, it's really about creating that culture, creating a universe, that the people you will arise into the next level of being selfless. And then also from a DNI perspective of like: What diverse people can we grow? Can we hire? Are we retaining them? These are all the ways that I measure success. I try not to look at what other people are doing. Because I mean, it doesn't really matter. I want to make sure that the organization and the people around me are set up for success.Dan Runcie 21:14I hear that. And I think a lot of the themes you mentioned there align with mentorship, and whether it's being a mentor or support for the artists that are looking to you for guidance, your co-workers and your colleagues. Can you talk a little bit more about why that's so important to you? Because even in reading and hearing other interviews, I know you've been active on that front, making sure that you can use your platform and where you are to pass the torch and help others along the way.Kevin Shivers 21:40I think mentorship is one of these things like, if we're not mentoring, then what are we doing? Why are we even showing up? You have to always be trying to look out for other people. I've had people that looked out for me and my career, people that still look out for me. And I think that is one of the key things. One of the reasons that makes me want to get up every day and come into the office is, like, helping others. I think that's one of the reasons why we're put on this earth to help people. A non-negotiable thing is mentorship. I mean, the crazy fact about, I'll go do an interview, or I'll do a panel and everybody that writes to me on IG or LinkedIn, I write everybody back, everybody. I mean, I probably send more people to the HR department here for jobs than anybody. Because I just want everybody back. I think that's important, because I was once the young kid who wanted to figure this out. And like I didn't know, I had no clue and people helped me. So I think that's a very important aspect of the job.Dan Runcie 22:35100%. And even on a personal level, I remember the first time you reached out to me, Hey, love what you're doing. Hey, how can I help? And you're just like: Oh, who do you want to interview? Oh, I was listening to them yesterday, boom, let's get this done. So even on a personal level, I need you out. You're looking out for me, man. I appreciate that. Kevin Shivers 22:52Yeah, I mean, well, you're doing it. I listen to your podcast every week. I think it's amazing. I think what you're doing for the culture is great. And I just wanted to get to know you and just to help where I can and, and that's just, that's what I think is important.Dan Runcie 23:05Definitely, definitely. And one of the things that you had put out, because a couple years back, but it really stuck out to me was this was right after George Floyd's murder and the music industry had the show must be paused response. And you had written these guest posts on Pollstar and you were talking about how this industry just needs to do better by its black execs specifically on the recruiting front. And I know you were just talking about how, you know, you're always pushing things forward to HR. And I'm sure this must be really personal for you as well, you are one of the few folks that looks like you in the position that you have in this whole industry. So I'd love to hear how you feel like the industry has responded since everything had happened after George Floyd's murder and the response to where we are now in 2022.Kevin Shivers 23:57You know, in response to your comment about I wanted a person who looks like me in the industry. I always say to everybody, I'm amazing, but I'm not that amazing. There's, there should be more people that look like me doing what I do and and you know, partners in hire, right? And I think we still have a lot of work to do. There's good news though. There's positive conversation around DNI, people are aware, people are aware that there needs to be more black people and more diverse people need to have more opportunities. I still think that we need to keep pushing the envelope, we still have a lot more to do in terms of hiring and creating opportunities for black people. The organization's know they have to do better, but they have to buck the old status quo. They have to go outside of the norm. And today to some people, it might be like: Oh, we're taking a risk. No, DNI has to be inside of your lifeline, inside of your blood, inside of your everyday practices. It's not something that you can just talk about once a quarter, you gotta live it, you got to be in it every day. And I believe that the black people need to be promoted, they need to be elevated. They need to be given the same opportunities and shots. When we were interviewing for jobs, I think in any, in any industry, not just entertainment, you need to be interviewing black people, people of color, LGBTQ, there just needs to be more opportunity. We need more Sylvia Rhone's, more Ethiopia's, more tons Jay-Z and Def Jam. We need more leaders, more partners. I mean, we have to just keep our foot on the gas, keep pushing the envelope because this, we're not there yet. But we're going in the right direction. And we need to keep the momentum.Dan Runcie 25:30Right. And I think even an example of that, the folks you just mentioned, I think a lot of folks in this industry are all on a first name basis. And as incredible as all those folks are, how do we get to the point where they're not on a first name basis, because they aren't just the few black execs in there. I mean, it's definitely going to continue to take time. And I think whether it's conversations like this, or the efforts you're doing will help. But I'm hopeful that it can get there eventually. Kevin Shivers 25:55I'm hopeful, too. I think we got to stay targeted and focus. But also at the same time, remember, like, this just didn't happen overnight, right? It's not going to change overnight. But we have to like, we have to keep, we have to stay on this because it can change and it needs to be better.Dan Runcie 26:11Definitely. So let's switch gears a bit. Let's talk a little bit about the future, specifically with regards to touring and technology and what things will look like in, the potential with Web 3.0 and the metaverse. Because now you have agencies that are specifically I'm sure WME likely also has a division where they focus specifically on digital environments, or getting artists lined up on that perspective. How do you look at that? Specifically, with the artists you have on your roster, what the potentials are for them in these digital worlds.Kevin Shivers 26:50I think Web 3.0 is just it's massive, huge, huge opportunity. You know, if you think about the evolution started in virtual, went over to Fortnite, but I just think it brings control back to the artists in a way. Artists had an act like this the whole time, these music artists, they've had fan clubs, they've had social media, but what Web 3.0 does, it gives more control to them. It's gonna give them more power, but like, it kind of cuts out the middleman and I think you know, things are gonna change in the next six months, next five years, it's gonna be an exciting world. If you look at what Coachella did, by selling the NFT, a lifetime Coachella pass. I mean, I think artists are gonna come up with these things where, you know, if you want to be in the front row of my show, here's the NFT for the chance to buy the front row tickets, or maybe it just goes inside of there. And they figure out what to promote, but I just think like, it's an exciting time. Like, it's the, it's endless. I was just on the phone with A Jones the other day, I love what he's doing with Royal. And I think the deal that he did with Nas and Antony Silay is, like,amazing; that looks like where things are headed. I mean, it's just, you know, like any of these things, it's gonna be ups and downs, right? In the Web 3.0, but I just think the opportunity is endless.Dan Runcie 28:01Yeah, things are early, things are also moving really fast. Six months from now, it's gonna look completely different. And I am excited for the artists that are taking advantage early. I feel like I can already imagine Camp Flog Gnaw Carnival having some type of digital environment or some type of experience in the metaverse.Kevin Shivers 28:21I'm sure it will, I'm sure Lollapalooza and some of these other properties. That's where they're headed. I mean, it's gonna be a really exciting time. I just hope people get off the couch, you still come out to show.Dan Runcie 28:35Is that a concern you have though? Like, do you wonder about that in the future?Kevin Shivers 28:39No, no, I was just joking. I mean, I don't think anything can replace the live experience, just like the Zooms are great, right? But I think when you're in a meeting with somebody, it's 10 times better. And I think a concert is 100 times better. I love, I love going to festivals, I've been to them all over the world. And I love seeing the reactions in real time on people's faces from their favorite artists hidden in the stage. So I don't think anything can replace it. I think it's going to only enhance the experience.Dan Runcie 29:07Agreed. That's what I always go back to. Everything in these experiences are additive and isn't a replacement for anything. And I think it'll probably just force more creativity for every aspect, because you're not just trying to have something be a catch all. So I think I'm interested to see how it'll continue to shape live performances and what that can look like from the, you know, the IRL experience. Yeah. And on that note, do you have any predictions for what you think the next three to five years or so will look like specifically in the lifespace? I mean, pandemic notwithstanding, I mean, obviously, I think we'll continue to see the after effects of that, but any type of, you know, evolutions are any type of future changes that you think will see over time.Kevin Shivers 29:51Yeah, I think 2022 is going to be bigger than we thought. I think that hopefully, I think we're headed to a healthy tour environment. I think there's going to be new players in terms of buyers and festivals. And I think the fan experience will that's going to be the thing of the future. I think everyone has realized they have to zero in on the fan from artists curated weekends and festivals to I think even super service in the fan. Think about this, think about a world where service lets you buy a ticket, has a car that picks you up, dinner reservations, great seats, even find you a babysitter.I think that's where we're going, we're going to this place, we're like: Okay, I can't even be, I'm busy. I didn't want to deal with this, boom, hit a button. And this is where we're going. I think that's exciting. Because you know, getting inside of the mind of the fan, what they really want is going to be the next evolution. Dan Runcie 30:42Yeah, even you mapping that out. If you literally could press one button and solve that, I think you'd also just increase the amount of people that can come through, right? You mentioned the babysitter, the amount of people that have young kids, and it's like, you know, just the thought of them needed like, oh, you know, we got to find someone for this to cover for this night. Like, yeah, if all that can be taken care of.Kevin Shivers 31:00Because I think people love live music, and live music is such a treat. But when you think about the hurdles you have to do, you got to put on some clothes, maybe, you know, show starts at seven, get homework, feed your kids, do this, do that. And if you could just take some of that away from them. That's like, you know, bringing the fan experience to a new level.Dan Runcie 31:21Definitely. So I know that you're always on the go with festivals. And you know, I know you love going into them. But I know it's also for your work as well. If you have to guess, how many shows do you think you'll go to in 2022?Kevin Shivers 31:33I can tell you this. I'd rather answer this way. How many days I plan on hitting a lot of festivals in 2022. So I think I'm going to be, I call it 50 to 60 days watching music, right? That's what I'd say.Dan Runcie 31:48Okay. Yeah. All right. And even that, I mean, that's a lot more than the average person. But I mean, it's just incredible. Because you get to just see all the fine tunes, you get to just see everything. And like you mentioned, this is interesting, you're traveling all across the world for this stuff.Kevin Shivers 32:02Yeah. I mean, that's, that's one of the reasons I love doing what I do. I mean, like, really, I get to go see live music in different parts of the world. I mean, I can't even imagine anything better than that.Dan Runcie 32:12Yeah. So last question. Before we let you go. I know we talked a lot about Tyler. And I know from our conversations, just the uniqueness of you seeing that star power and star potential, even from the first time you connect it. How do you find that next tile? Or how do you find that thing to know? Okay, yeah, this is the one that we need for this next generation. Kevin Shivers 32:34Oh, wow. I think when I'm looking to sign somebody, I'm looking for somebody that has a unique point of view, for somebody that is fearless, and then wants to do the work.Dan Runcie 32:43That makes sense. Hear that man. Hey, before we let you go, man, this was great. I'm glad you could come through and make this happen. But is there anything else you want to plug? Or let the Trapital audience know about it?Kevin Shivers 32:54I think everybody should go out and see some shows this year. I think 2022 is going to be a good year, and then one thing I want to say is to somebody who wants a career in entertainment, I think you should go for it. I think you should move to LA, move to New York, move to Atlanta, move to Nashville. Call, email some people; call, email me. I'll probably write you back pretty soon and just go for your dreams.Dan Runcie 33:15What's your email address?Kevin Shivers 33:17Kshivers@wmeagency.com. It's all good.Dan Runcie 33:23Now appreciate that, man. I welcome man. Thanks for coming through this as a pleasure.Kevin Shivers 33:27I appreciate you Dan.Dan Runcie 33:31If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, posted to your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review and tell people why you liked the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

A very good morning to you! It is Friday morning, 11th of February, the year 2022. And this is your friend, Angus Buchan with a thought for today. “Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your son lives." So the man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him, and he went his way.”John 4:50I read out of the New King James Version of the Bible, if we go to 1 John 5:7, do you know what it says?It says there are three that bear witness in heaven - come on now, who are they - The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit… Is that right? - No, that is not right! My Bible says:“For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”So who is the Word? That is right, the Word is Jesus. You see, that nobleman came to Jesus. He said, “My son is dying, please pray for him.” Jesus prayed for the son to be healed, he wasn't even there. The nobleman left because he believed the Word of God and his servants came running up the road saying, “Your son lives.” The nobleman said, “When did he get better?” They said, ”Yesterday, on the seventh hour.” That was the exact time that Jesus prayed and said to the nobleman, “Your son lives” - the very same hour. Jesus is the Word! “In the beginning (that is right in the beginning) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”John 1:1You and I need to believe the Bible because it is Jesus Christ in print. A couple came to see me, from Pretoria I think it was, a few weeks ago. The man had been very sick and he had lost his sight. He could hardly see, he could hardly walk into the office.His dear wife was with him. He was a backslider, that is what he told me. He actually said he gave his life to the Lord in 2008 at the Mighty Men Conference, when we had the big tent. He was a broken man but his wife had incredible faith. She started weeping from the moment they walked into the office. He put his head down on the table. He sat in our boardroom and he just wept like a baby. I asked him, “What do you want Jesus to do for you?” Now you might say that is a strange question to ask a man who obviously needs his sight back, but the same thing happened with Barthimaeus, in Mark 10:51, exactly the same thing. “So Jesus answered and said to him, "What do you want Me to do for you?" The blind man said to Him, "Rabboni, ( which means teacher) that I may receive my sight." And immediately he was healed.I asked this man the same question. He said, “I want to see.” We anointed him with oil. He prayed a prayer of repentance, his wife was weeping, he was weeping, we were all weeping. Now, she had driven him all the way from Pretoria. He said goodbye and my secretary came to me and said to me, “They have just driven out of the driveway.” I said, “Oh yes, that's nice!” She said: “But he is driving the car!” - He drove all the way back!Believe the Word!God bless you and goodbye.

I get around to telling you the story I promised. The power of song marking turning points in our lives.  Teenage hitchhiking in the 80's.  Judges. Jail time.  Treatment centers and Van Halen.  Plus all the details I can muster.   But first a tangent on, if you don't want to sell than perhaps you shouldn't be an entrepreneur who is trying to sell something.Administrative: (See episode transcript below)WATCH the Table Rush Talk Show interviews here: www.TableRushTalkShow.comCheck out the Tools For A Good Life Summit here: Virtually and FOR FREE https://bit.ly/ToolsForAGoodLifeSummitStart podcasting!  These are the best mobile mic's for IOS and Android phones.  You can literally take them anywhere on the fly.Get the Shure MV88 mobile mic for IOS,  https://amzn.to/3z2NrIJGet the Shure MV88+ for  mobile mic for Android  https://amzn.to/3ly8SNjSee more resources at https://belove.media/resourcesEmail me: contact@belove.mediaFor social Media:      https://www.instagram.com/mrmischaz/https://www.facebook.com/MischaZvegintzovSubscribe and share to help spread the love for a better world!As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.Transcript: Mischa Zvegintzov  00:00On the last episode, I had talked about the importance of storytelling, and how important it is if you're trying to get the word out on your product offering, if you're trying to sell your product offering, and make no mistake that you're trying to create a business where people are buying your product, or your product offering, whatever that is, whether that's a physical good and expert service, or brick and mortar, or what have you, if somebody is buying, that implies you are selling. So, so I know I'm working with this guy right now who is like, "I don't want to be pushy", I in effect, don't want to have to sell.Mischa Zvegintzov  00:50Well, then perhaps you shouldn't be an entrepreneur, that's trying to sell something.Mischa Zvegintzov  00:55Because if you are trying to grow a business, that implies you have something to sell. Anyway, so there's different ways to do it. There's gentle ways to sell.  aggressive ways to sell. There's ways to sell where through your storytelling at the end somebody naturally just wants to buy.  and you don't even need to ask them to buy.Mischa Zvegintzov  01:25So I think that that's what people who are hesitant to "sell" as they don't want to feel like they are having to ask.  Or force or "sell" ice to Eskimos. But ultimately, oftentimes, you do need to ask for the credit card. Or ask them to buy the clothes they are trying on.  Wow, what a great tangent I just went on.Mischa Zvegintzov  01:59Anyway...  so here's the story that I was going to tell in the last episode.. It's a story that is a slice of my life. It's about music. It's about the power and the impact of a band on my life.  And also just a marker of my life and change.Mischa Zvegintzov  02:28II think what's interesting about the story is... perhaps this is just an egoic story for me to tell the story?  Or is it a story that I'm trying to prove a point?  Or show you that you need my product?  Or the before and after things like that.Mischa Zvegintzov  02:47This is just a memory that came back that's been very strong in my head. So might as well practice telling stories because that's what we've got to do. And maybe the story by me practicing, telling it right now will come up when the time is right, intuitively.  So I'll leave that to God.Mischa Zvegintzov  03:11Okay, here we go. So I'm growing out my hair and it's officially long.   It  hangs to my shoulders and it's curls.  And when it's wet it goes past my shoulders.  Down my shoulders and back a little bit. It reminds me strongly of the 70s and 80s. And of the 70s and 80s rock bands that I used to love so much.Mischa Zvegintzov  03:48And I don't know how the Google knows this. But the Google News Feed is delivering more delivering me more and more of the long haired 70s and 80s bands to me.   Pictures and things like that. And so of course there's Robert Plant and Led Zeppelin. Who people comment on I remind them of that band due to my curly blond and gray locks.Mischa Zvegintzov  04:29And another band that's started to be front and center is Van Halen.  Back before they had their refined look. Eddie Van Halen had his hair was pretty long.Mischa Zvegintzov  04:51And then you know, he starts getting bangs.  It's fun to watch bands as they get respectable and start selling more music.  And they start really looking the times and they've got stylists clearly. Anyway, it's just a funny thought.Mischa Zvegintzov  05:15So the story is this.  The first time I heard Van Halen I thought they were horrible. I was 14 years old. I was living in Jackson Wyoming.  And I had just started, just started my foray into actively drinking and drugging. And anybody who's been listening to me for a while knows that I quit drinking and drugging when I was 17. So my super active abusive period of drinking and drugging was three years. From the time I was 14, till the time I was 17 years and nine months old. Last day of high school is when I quit. Mischa Zvegintzov  06:03This was in 1982. Jackson Hole Wyoming was a lot different than the famous Jackson Hole Wyoming that it is now. It was a hippie outpost and big tourist town at the same time. And then ranchers and cowboys.   Real cowboys.  Like rodeo cowboys. There's a rodeo in Jackson Wyoming.  So bucking Broncos and, and all those sorts of things.Mischa Zvegintzov  06:48But at the time hitchhiking was still okay. At least in Jackson Wyoming. And we used to love to hitchhike as kids.Mischa Zvegintzov  06:59So I was 14 years old. I just started my four four foray into the active pursuit of drinking and drugging. Which is insane. When you look at what 14 year olds look like.  , Especially me I was definitely a skinny tall and lanky kid... I was always young for my age trying to be older.  I hit puberty later.  My balance, my coordination, puberty, all these things hit me late.Mischa Zvegintzov  07:37Anyway, I'm hitchhiking with my buddy...Mischa Zvegintzov  07:39And my buddy, who I was hitchhiking with this day... Mischa Zvegintzov  07:50I got clean and sober. And the clean and sober never stuck with him. And he finally disappeared. Mischa Zvegintzov  08:03...I was trying to find him a decade or so ago on the Facebook and all that. Mischa Zvegintzov  08:09...What happened to my buddy? and I stumbled across his brother. His brother said, oh, yeah, he committed suicide.  Could never get clean and sober. And just went down, dark, deep, and in his 30s killed himself.Mischa Zvegintzov  08:35So anyway, not to depress you, but interesting facts...Mischa Zvegintzov  08:39So him and I were hitchhiking, fourteen, skinny punk kids, ratty, early 80s hair.  And two high school girls that we know. Pick us up in their car.  Like an old Toyota Tercell stoner car of the day. Mischa Zvegintzov  09:02And we jump in, they're smoking cigarettes, and we want to be cool. My friend and I were like, "Yeah, I want to be cool too".  And there's this Kinks song playing. Except it's not the Kinks. It's some dude with a horrible raspy voice shreaking the Kinks song "You really got me".Mischa Zvegintzov  09:35I loved the kinks in my youth. And I was like, "Who is this horrible rendition of the Kinks "You Really Got Me" in this 1982 ratty old high schooler car.Mischa Zvegintzov  09:56These two girls were partiers right.  And I was afraid fledgeling partier. So they were my hero's. And I was like, "I dislike this band Van Halen and David Lee Roth".Mischa Zvegintzov  10:10So Van Halen was the best party music and I grew to like Van Halen. I loved Van Halen.  So when 1984 came out I was full fledged drug addict and alcoholic at the age of 16.Mischa Zvegintzov  10:41So fast forward to I get sober.  Clean and Sober.  A nudge from the judge.  The judge is like "Hey Mischa..."Mischa Zvegintzov  10:50I remember his name "Judge Horn". "No Judge Rank!"  I graduated from Judge Horn to Judge Rank.Mischa Zvegintzov  10:58My father was the deputy prosecuting attorney of Teton County in Jackson Wyoming. And he knew Judge Rank.  They had a good relationship. And so he worked this backdoor deal.Mischa Zvegintzov  11:10Dad talks to the judge... And the judge was like, "Alright, we'll let him go to treatment or he can go to six months in jail".Mischa Zvegintzov  11:19And I was given that offer by my father.  He says, "Hey, I talked talk to the judge and here are your choices". These were common choices handed out to kids my age who were in trouble by the way. So it wasn't like I was treated special.Mischa Zvegintzov  11:32The way I was treated special was I didn't have to go directly through the courts. At that point I didn't have to go sit in front of the judge.Mischa Zvegintzov  11:42So for whatever reason I was inspired to choose treatment.  And I land in treatment in June of 1986.Mischa Zvegintzov  11:53At this time David Lee Roth had quit Van Halen and Sammy Hagar was the new singer.  I'm at a treatment center in St. Paul, Minnesota. Minnesota! The birth of the treatment center!  And Van Halen's 5150 Album.  Sammy Hagar singing the song "Why can't this be love was just on the radio rotation".   And I just remember sitting in treatment, being like, "what has come of my life? Already? At 17 years old." Mischa Zvegintzov  12:59And the Van Halen song "Why can't this be love" was the soundtrack of that turning point for me. And still, whenever I happen to hear that song, it reminds me of that time.Mischa Zvegintzov  13:13But I can tell you this... There's the pre Sammy time and the and then Van Halen with Sammy.  I was never a never able to embrace the Sammy Hagar Van Halen. It's a definitely a turning point in my life. But I was always like, "David Lee Roth Van Halen, that's the real Van Halen!."Mischa Zvegintzov  13:47And I think about that along the lines of AC/DC.  There's the Bon Scott AC/DC and the Brian Johnson AC/DC. And I gravitate towards the Bon Scott AC/DC.  Which is so interesting because Bon Scott and David Lee Roth, their voices are not the best voices. They just are so powerful in their delivery.Mischa Zvegintzov  14:16There's my story. Me practicing telling a story. With detail. Russell Brunson was like, get the details in there.  Get more details in there to make it real.Mischa Zvegintzov  14:32I suppose some details would have been the depth of my despair when I was heading to treatment. I'll work on that next time. Love to allMischa Zvegintzov  14:42Thank you for listening to my story!

Ben and Lexi reminisce about the quintessential coming of age movies of our youth - kind of. Dork You Forget About Me find Ben and Lexi looking back at classic 80's teen movies. Both Lexi and Ben struggled to fit in with humans and had to turn to movies to learn how to be a teen, which means watching copious amounts of John Hughes! In this episode, Ben and Lexi dork out about classic John Hughes movies, which holding them up to the test of time. Have these movies aged well? Listen now and find out! Show Notes:Lexi and Ben talked about the following movies:Uncle BuckThe Breakfast Club16 CandlesPretty in PinkHome AloneFootlooseWeird ScienceFerris Bueller's Day OffPump Up the VolumeCan't Hardly WaitAnd more!The  full list of John Hughes movies can be found hereYou can find the episode of Art Intervention we mentioned hereWe talked about  Margaret Atwood being a TERF and you can read about the 2018 conflict here and the more recent one hereSOCIALS:Here's where you can find us!Lexi's website and twitter and instagramBen's website and instagram and where to buy his book: Amazon.ca / Comixology / Ind!go / Renegade ArtsDork Matter's website(WIP) and twitter and instagramIf you're enjoying Dork Matters, we'd really appreciate a nice rating and review on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your pods. It would very much help us get this show to the other dorks out there.“We're all pretty bizarre. Some of us are just better at hiding it, that's all.” Transcript:Lexi  00:00One time I was driving to work and listening to like, you know, rap and I like aggressive hip hop, and I was listening--Ben  00:08[chuckles] Someday I'll ask you to define that, but not now.Lexi  00:12Okay, so, like, for example, I was listening to Run The Jewels one day, [Run The Jewels plays] which I wouldn't even classify as, like, super aggressive anyway, and I was trying to psych myself, like, "I gotta get in this building. I gotta be, like, in a good mood and talk to people all day," and so I was listening to it, fully cranked, and the windows were flexing, and I didn't realize there was just like a sea of children sitting there watching me, like, pound coffee, and try to, like, psych myself and, like, "Get out of the car, go inside,"  and it's just like, "Well, whoa, nope! Sorry, kids. I'm just gonna turn that off real quick". [music stops] I don't know what happened. [laughs]Ben  00:50I don't know how to get myself psyched up. When I worked in an office, I had about a 15- to 20-minute walk to work to, sort of like, just not be the person I normally am, and become work person. That didn't always work. I still a pretty grumpy shithead, usually. I don't like being bothered, and, you know, being in an office means you're just constantly bothered. It doesn't matter what you're trying to do.Lexi  01:15And you have to make small talk. Like, yuck. Ben  01:17Yeah, I had to learn how to do that. I've always been an introvert and making eye contact with people, when you have a conversation and just like... And so, I'm actually pretty good at just talking bullshit now with people. I don't like it. I don't like doing it. I don't like this other version of me is just talking to people, and I'm just like, "Eugh. Glad I'm not that guy."Lexi  01:36There are so many times where I'll finish doing, like, a presentation or having small talk with someone, and I'll go away and I'll be like, "Oh, she's terrible," and I'm referring to me. Like, I hate that part of me like, [upbeat] "Hey, how's it going?" I'm like, "Eugh! God."Ben  01:51Yeah. So that's an interesting thing with, like, being a stay-at-home parent now too, is like, I don't get to go to a different place and be a different person for a while, and divorce myself from who I think I am, versus the person I have to be in a work setting. Now, it's all just me, and it's all just gotta try to do well all the time. Lexi  02:11That sounds hard. Oh.Ben  02:13Can't phone it in like I used to when I'd go to the office. [laughs]Lexi  02:17Well, I mean, you could. You could just like plunk him in the laundry basket in front of the TV.Ben  02:21No. I mean, I'm incapable of doing that.Lexi  02:24That's good. That's good.Ben  02:25I am your Cyclops archetype. I am responsible to a fault. "No Fun Ben", I think, is what I  used to be called.Lexi  02:33Oh, I was the old wet blanket. Ben  02:35You know, you guys would be like, "Let's go to a party and get drunk." I'm like, "I don't know about that. I gotta be home by 9 PM and, you know, we're underage." [laughs]Lexi  02:43I do remember being at a party at your place when you lived with Brandon, and in the middle of the party, you did start doing dishes. [Ben laughs] I remember, I was like, "Hmm, this is interesting."Ben  02:55They were stacking up. You gotta keep 'em clean. You gotta keep them clean. That's just respectful to other people.Lexi  03:00Fun is fun, guys, but come on. Like, clean up after yourselves.Ben  03:04"No, no. Y'all keep having fun. I'll clean the dishes." That's a nice thing for me to do. [laughs]Lexi  03:08I was the wet blanket in terms of like, you know, at the sleepovers, I'd go, "Oh, it's getting late, ladies. It's probably some shut-eye time."Ben  03:16Oh, god. You're lucky you didn't get Sharpied every time.Lexi  03:20Those people, I think maybe they were like, "Is she...? Is she, like, you know...? Should we be nice to her because she's not all there?"Ben  03:29"The same as us."Lexi  03:29Yeah. And sometimes I kind of wondered, like, "Did they think that I am maybe on the spectrum or something?" which I kind of wonder if I am sometimes.Ben  03:38God, I wonder all the time if I am, and I'm not trying to say that as a joke. Like, I constantly--Lexi  03:41No, no.Ben  03:43--wonder if my inability to connect with people is something neurodivergent.Lexi  03:49Oh, do you do-- okay, sometimes I'll watch people. I'll watch-- like, especially when it comes to women, and when I was a teenager, I would watch groups of girls interact, and I felt like I was watching, like, a nature program. Like, "Ah. That is how the female species puts on makeup," and it never made sense to me to like go up to them and be like, "Hey, gals, let's all put our makeup on together." I was just, like, so awkward that I didn't understand how to talk to them.Ben  04:18Yeah. The thing for me was that I was just always felt on outside, as well. Like, I never felt like I had a group of friends in any situation. Part of that was moving schools a lot. Part of that was never feeling like I connected with other individuals. So yeah. No, I definitely should probably figure out if I'm--Lexi  04:35But I think that that's a great thing that people are learning more about themselves at all times because sometimes, like, I'll talk to adults that are like, "Well, I probably have a learning disability and that would have made school a lot easier, but what's the point in finding out now?" I'm like, "Well, why wouldn't you?"Ben  04:51How would that make... Well and, like, record scratch. [scratching record DJ-style] How would that make school more easy for you? Would you have had maybe more support? Maybe, but maybe not. It depends on where you were, what kind of, like, financial supports the school had, what your parents believed. Like, you know, there's no reason to think, like, if you have a disability, you have it easy. That's a wild take.Lexi  05:11Yeah, I think you can... You're right. Like, it depends on where you are, that you can access different types of supports, but I think we're also moving towards a more inclusive education model in the old Canada, where you should be treating everybody... It's like, it's technically universal design for learning where everybody should benefit from like, you know, flexible due dates, and, like, more understanding progressive assessment practices, because, yeah, like if you do have a disability, and you need a little bit more support, that's great, but if you don't, you can still get support, too, and that's fine, too. Ben  05:49Yeah. Lexi  05:50But, ah, that's interesting. This is maybe a good, like, introduction, though, because as teenagers when we were watching, trying to learn how to be a teenager, you turn to movies to try to understand, like, how to fit in.Ben  06:05Right. So the question is, like, "Should we have ever even looked at those other groups and people and been like, 'I'm supposed to be that way?' Or was that something we were taught by John Hughes and his movies?"Lexi  06:18Oh, John Hughes. I'm so conflicted. Ben  06:21So we're here tonight, as you've certainly guessed, to talk about '80s teen movies. You know 'em. You love 'em. We are going to revisit our memories of those movies, talk about some things that don't really hold up, some things that do just fine, and some things that are problematic and it matters to dorks. Wow, that was rough. Lexi  06:47That was-- I won't lie about it. It wasn't your best.Ben  06:51No, let's hit the theme song and let's try again after. [Lexi laughs] [theme music "Dance" by YABRA plays] Ben  07:22Welcome to Dork Matters--Voiceover  07:24[echoing] Dork Matters.Ben  07:24--the show by and for dorks, made by dorks, in a tree of dorks. We're like little dork elves, Keebler elves that make you dork cookies.Lexi  07:34Oh, I like that. Ben  07:36Yeah.Lexi  07:36That's a nice little image.Ben  07:38Yeah. Lexi  07:39We grow on trees.Ben  07:40[chuckling] Yeah, or are we are inside of trees, baking tree.Lexi  07:44Yeah, 'cause we don't like the outside so much. Ben  07:46No, I'm not an outside person. [Lexi laughs] I am your Dad Dork host, Ben Rankel, and with me, as always is...Lexi  07:53Your Movie Buff Dork, Lexi Hunt.Ben  07:56Oh, wow. No alliteration at all. You're just flying--Lexi  07:59Nah, just gettin' right in there. You know what? Fuck it.Ben  08:03You are going to have to be the movie buff dork tonight. I have tried to bone up on our subject, and I'm like, "Good God, I need a week to prepare for this by rewatching every single teen movie from the '80s," because that's what we're here to talk about tonight, or today, or whenever you're listening to this. Time is a flat circle. [chuckles] We're here to talk about teen movies of the '80s.Lexi  08:26[sing-songy] I love this episode.Ben  08:30The good, the bad, the ugly, the ones that hold up really well, the ones that do not hold up. We're gonna just shoot the shit on teen movies 'cause that's what we do. Lexi  08:39Oh, yeah.Ben  08:40We're gonna get a bunch of shit wrong, as usual, and that's half the fun here.Lexi  08:44Can I start by saying, like, how many movies did John Hughes create? My god, that man was prolific. Ben  08:51Yeah. So it depends on if we wanna look at whether he directed it, or produced it, or whatever, but if we just go by Wikipedia filmography, let's count these out. 1, 2, 3, 4... (fast-forwarded counting) 38. 38 different films.Lexi  09:16And a lot of them, like, I didn't actually know that he did some of them. Some of them, of course, I was like, "I knew that one. That's a John Hughes," but, like, Maid in Manhattan? What?Ben  09:27Yeah. Flubber.Lexi  09:28He was part of Flubber.Ben  09:30He was part of Flubber. He produced Flubber. Yeah, all the Home Alone's, right up to Home Alone 4: Taking Back the House, that seminal classic. We watch it every year at Christmas. Not the earlier three Home Alone's, just Home Alone 4, the one everyone remembers.Lexi  09:47Yeah, the one that went straight to VHS release.Ben  09:50Yeah. I think, unfortunately, it was even DVD at that point. Just DVD. [Lexi groans]Lexi  09:55But then there's so many great ones too, that... Actually, I was talking to John about, you know, "What movies did you guys watch when you were growing up that we you would classify as a teen movie?" and he was more in the action side of the '80s and '90s movies, so he was like, "I can talk to you about The Rock. How do you feel about that?" But not so much... I think he said that they watched Breakfast Club in school, which I find incredible. Like, "Why did you watch that in school?!" Like, listening to it, there's so many messed-up things like Emilio Estevez talks about supergluing a guy's butt crack together. Like, "I know, and I'm going to show my grade nines today." [chuckles theatrically]Ben  10:38And that's one of the tamer things that happens in that film, like, that doesn't hold up. [Lexi laughs] I mean, we might as well get into it. Let's start with the seminal classic, The Breakfast Club with, you know, the greatest brat cast that you've ever seen. Everyone has seen this movie. We all know how it ends, that jumping fist pump in the air. [Simple Minds "Don't You (Forget About Me)" plays]Lexi  11:00You can hear the music right now, can't you?Ben  11:01[sings] Don't you forget about me.Lexi  11:03And I gotta say, best soundtrack. Ben  11:07[sings] Forget about you.Lexi  11:10[sings] Don't you... [speaks] I also like that like weird slide guitar. [sings descending glissando, imitating slide guitar] That's a great '80s sound right there.Ben  11:17[chuckling] I want you to do it again. [Lexi sings imitation along with slide guitar] Nice. Let's start a band.Lexi  11:23I can play the mouth trumpet. [laughs] And that's... Okay, that sounds really dirty, but it's actually like... [sings melody, buzzing lips] [laughs]Ben  11:29I can play the mouth harp, as well, as long as we're embarrassing ourselves. [Lexi laughs] [harmonica plays] That's right. I play harmonica, as if I couldn't get any loser-ier. That's a word.Lexi  11:37Hey, man, I played the clarinet in the old high-school band for many years. [clarinet plays basic melody] Ben  11:41I think I played clarinet at one point, too, in the band. Lexi  11:46It's a great instrument. So Breakfast Club, which is weird, because Sixteen Candles... Okay, let's let's go through--Ben  11:55I feel like Sixteen Candles is probably the greatest offender of any teen movie--Lexi  11:59Oh.Ben  11:59--we're gonna talk about.Lexi  12:00It's so bad. Yeah. Ben  12:03And, you know, everyone loves Breakfast Club. I feel like maybe Sixteen Candles is a little less watched, still. I mean, we can talk about 'em both, but let's turn to Breakfast Club, first. Let's talk about some of the fucked-up shit that you remember happening and see if it's all true. You guys let us know if we make up anything.Lexi  12:19I couldn't get over the fact that, first of all, I was like, "Who the hell has detention on the weekend?" Because that's more of a punishment to the teachers than anything. Like--Ben  12:29Yeah, that's not happening. Lexi  12:31And what parent would be like, "Yeah"? Parents would be like, "No, I'm not doing that." [laughs]Ben  12:37Yeah, "You wanna keep my kid half an hour after school, that's one thing."Lexi  12:42Like, "Go nuts." Ben  12:42But yeah, they're not coming in on a weekend." And what teacher wants to do that? Like, you're not getting paid for that. Is that extra-curricular at that point? [Lexi blows through lips]Lexi  12:50I think that there's just so many issues with detention as-- like, that's a whole other issue. But to, like, spend your weekend... I know they're trying to demonstrate that, like, the character of-- god, what is his name? The assistant principal who hauls everybody in. It just shows what a miserable git he is. But, eugh, to me, like, that, already, I was like, "This movie is just setting me up for"--Ben  13:15Principal Richard Vernon, who, like, already is a problem, because this guy just treats these children--Lexi  13:21He's so horrible.Ben  13:22--and they are children, just awful. Yeah, just like a way that he would have lost his job if it was nowadays. There's no way he keeps his job past that weekend. There's no way he keeps his job past, like, his first interaction with, I think, Emilio Estevez with the stupid devil horns and, like, [in devil voice] "the rest of your natural born..." That'd be on TikTok. In, like, five minutes, there'd be a whole crowd of people knocking down his doors. The school board trustees, they'd be like, "Nah, you don't have a job anymore."Lexi  13:46And, as well they should. Like, you can't... There's one part in the movie where Judd Nelson's character--Ben  13:53Bender.Lexi  13:54--is playing basketball in the gym, and he's like, "I'm thinking about going out for a scholarship," and that's such a great point that, like, he could have just been like, "Okay, let's play," and then like, look, you're building relationship and you're not being a complete d-bag. Then, like, get to know him! Just play basketball with him. It's, literally, a Saturday, and you're sitting in your office. You may as well.Ben  14:16Yeah. Instead, he yells at him, if I remember correctly, and tells him he's never going anywhere. Lexi  14:21Yeah, that he's a, you know, piece of trash. Just, you don't talk to people that way. It's terrible. So, it's so, just, offensive to... You should never treat anyone like that, and you should never, 100%, have teachers speaking to students that way. That's just unacceptable.Ben  14:38The movie is in the National Film Registry of the Library of Congress, for its culturally, historically, and aesthetically significant nature, so that's something that I didn't just read off of Wikipedia.Lexi  14:51I mean, it is a huge part of culture that, kind of, changed the way that we, you know, talk about things.Ben  14:57Do you remember where the movie's set?Lexi  15:00They're all kind of set in the same...Ben  15:03Middle America. Lexi  15:04Yeah, like a Michigan kind of place.Ben  15:08Michigan is what I would guess. I have no idea. I can't remember any more. It's a very white cast, as well, which is interesting.Lexi  15:15Oh, yeah.Ben  15:16Yeah, what are some other egregious issues that we have with that one?Lexi  15:19Well, I don't like the way that Claire, so Molly Ringwald's character, she is berated, harassed by Bender the entire movie. He's got his head between her legs at one point, because he's hiding, and, at the end of the movie, she, like, goes and makes out with him and they become, like, boyfriend and girlfriend because he's wearing her earring and, like, you don't reward, like, a guy that treats you like trash, a person that treats you like trash. They're not gonna change. [laughs]Ben  15:51Yeah. I, 100%, remember it seeming, sort of, weird that that was, like, his reward for having some sort of character redemption is that Molly Ringwald will date him. And that's supposed to be character growth for her, is that she's not so stuck up anymore, she'll date somebody who's... poor and abusive?Lexi  16:07I guess? Or that, like, she's pushing back against her parents or... Like, I didn't really care for that part as much. Ben  16:18Yeah. Lexi  16:18But then, like, then you've got Claire and Allison, at one point, doing, like, makeovers and Allison's the kind of the quiet one who's the artist and the freak who's-- she's choosing to be at the detention instead of being sent there, and so Claire gives her the makeover and, all of a sudden, she's She's All That-ed. She's pretty, and now Emilio Estevez's character, Andrew, is, like, into her. If it wasn't for a lame... Before, he didn't see her, but as soon as Molly Ringwald puts some makeup on her, and pulled her hair back, well, now Allison's a person. I just thought like, "Ugh, that sends the wrong message."Ben  16:55Yeah.Lexi  16:56But, as a teenager, you're like, "Oh, that's how I get the attention of a boy."Ben  17:01Yeah, "I've gotta conform to beauty standards that are set out for me." Yeah, it's not great. It doesn't hold up. It feels wrong nowadays. I mean, it's really difficult to watch and think anything positive of it anymore.Lexi  17:14[laughs] The soundtrack was good. Ben  17:16Yeah, the soundtrack was good. Lexi  17:17But then John and I are having a conversation about that, and he's like, "Yeah, but at the time, that's what was a successful movie, and so, how fair is it for us to judge something from the past by today's standards?" Like, "Well, it's a difficult one. Like--"Ben  17:33Absolutely. Lexi  17:34I think we have to.Ben  17:36I mean, yeah, and also, like, what does that really mean, the idea of fair? Like, I mean, it feels sort of like the wrong question to apply to, sort of, reexamining past media. Like, you don't get a pass just because it was from the past.Lexi  17:54Yeah, there you go.Ben  17:55And the whole point of looking at something from the future is to reanalyze it from the scope that we have now. Like, you can do that and still acknowledge that, at the time, that general awareness of these sorts of things wasn't what it is now, but that's not really the point, I guess, is what I'm getting at.Lexi  18:12I can understand the criticism of like, yeah, you know, it's a questionable movie, but at the time, it was very progressive. And even now, like, I'm sure there are some TV shows, movies, books, whatever, that we think are pretty progressive that, in the future, people have problems with, but that's the point. Like, if we're all staying the exact same, that's the issue. Could we not be able to move forward, and then look back and be like, "Eugh. I shouldn't have done that"? Let's have a conversation about it.Ben  18:37I think the world and where it existed, and when it was made, is not where we are now. Like, that's not really the point. So Breakfast Club, like, none of these movies are really going to hold up to every standard that we have nowadays.Lexi  18:47No, it's impossible.Ben  18:48The bigger question is like, "Can I still enjoy this media the same way?" And you can't, especially... I mean, I don't think this movie, you can really... Like, I can watch it. I could enjoy parts of it, I suppose, but I don't know. I don't know if I really even would try to rewatch this movie. It used to come on TBS a lot, so we didn't have much of a choice, but...Lexi  19:10Yeah, I think now I would fast forward through a lot of it. Ben  19:14Yeah, I can't see myself going back to rewatch this, unlike a movie like "Footloose", which I still think is a fun watch. Same era, same sort of idea. There's a lot going on in that movie, too that's kind of effed up. Like, I think the main character, whose name I cannot remember, but it's Kevin Bacon, he moves to the small town where dancing and music is outlawed, and the girl that he falls for, her dad's abusive, her boyfriend's abusive, but I think, at one point, her boyfriend actually just punches her, and I'm just like, "Why would even?" Like, [sighs] in that sense, they're not trying to glorify that behavior necessarily, but it's... Yeah, so that's the interesting thing. Maybe that's what you gotta look at is the depiction of the thing in the movie something thing that they're doing as a "We're not thinking critically about this because that's the era we're from," or are they presenting it in that era, but they're saying, "This isn't a thing that should be happening," and that's a tough one. I can't remember that movie well enough. But I still like the dancin'.Lexi  20:17You like the dancin' part of it, hey?Ben  20:19Yep. Kevin Bacon, finally, in 2013, I think, admitted that he had a dance double for parts of that, but he did a lot of the dancing himself, he said.Lexi  20:28Did we not know that? I thought that that was widely accepted.Ben  20:32I don't know. It was just a thing I remember reading a while back, but yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like, that movie, I could rewatch again. I feel like it's worth going back for the dancing. I don't know what would bring me back to Breakfast Club, aside from the soundtrack, which I can just listen to on my own.Lexi  20:46Yeah, I would just listen to the s... Like, if it was on the TV.Ben  20:50I guess I like Emilio Estevez. I like Molly Ringwald. Like--Lexi  20:53Then watch "Mighty Ducks", Ben. Ben  20:55Yeah, and that's what I do. We're gonna have to do an episode on "The Mighty Ducks". I love "The Mighty Ducks: Game Changers" on Disney+. Lexi  21:02Oh, there you go. Yes. Ben  21:04Disney+ isn't sponsoring our show, but if they want to. [Lexi laughs] I like "Game Changers". It's a little weird. It's a little bit--Lexi  21:13I can't say that I've watched it, but, you know, I'll take a look-see.Ben  21:17Yeah. Oh, are we gonna do a "Dawson's Creek" episode or teen TV dramas of the 2000s? And those are-- a lot of those are trash but, like--Lexi  21:26Yes.Ben  21:26Yeah.Lexi  21:27I could talk about those, just "Smallville". Oh, my god. We need to talk about "Buffy". What are we doing, here?Ben  21:32That's an interesting one, like, 'cause, you know, 'cause you have to deal with the Joss Whedon. I call him Josh now. He lost his privilege at two "s"-es.Lexi  21:41You know, you strike an "s" off the name. Okay. We have to talk about Sixteen Candles, though, because it is the worst.Ben  21:50The worst. There is nothing--Lexi  21:53I think that a couple come close. Ben  21:55I could rewatch Breakfast Club, yeah. Like, I could re-watch Breakfast Club. There's a lot I don't like about it, and a lot that doesn't hold up, a lot of analysis of, sort of like, teen issues that doesn't really feel like it really got it, but I could rewatch it. I will not re-watch Sixteen Candles. I mean, give us a rundown. Give us the point-by-point. What's wrong with Sixteen Candles, aside from everything?Lexi  22:17If you've never watched Sixteen Candles before, don't. I will just run through it really quick. Basically, it's a party movie. Sam, play by Molly Ringwald, it's her birthday. It's her 16th birthday, but her entire family has basically forgotten, and she's really pissed off about the whole thing, so she's a real b-word all day at school. Meanwhile, she has this huge crush on this guy Jake Ryan who's, like, the quintessential hot dude of the school. Ben  22:42The perfect dude. Yeah.Lexi  22:44And, like, everyone of their little friend group is just like, "No, he's got such a hot girlfriend." They even show her showering naked in the girls' change room to really hammer home the fact that this lady is like a full-blown babe.Ben  22:59Wait. I do not remember this part of the movie. There's a naked scene of Molly Ringworld as a teenager?Lexi  23:06Yeah. Not Molly Ringwald. It was the girlfriend.Ben  23:08Oh, I'm sorry. I missed that. Lexi  23:10Molly Ringwald and her creepy friend... It's so creepy. They're leering and watching her shower because Molly Ringwald is comparing her chest to Jake Ryan's girlfriend to be like, "Oh, she's such a... She's a woman and I'm a girl. Why would he ever pay attention to me?" because boobs are the only thing that matter, apparently. Ben  23:10Mm.Lexi  23:30And then, meanwhile, so at the same time, Sam, Molly Ringwald, her grandparents come to her house, and they bring their foreign exchange student.Ben  23:41No. We can't even get into the foreign exchange student. It's so bad.Lexi  23:45It's so bad. I'm not even gonna. Like, you can go look it up. I'm not gonna say his name because it makes me feel uncomfortable, if I'm honest, but it's like a derogatory name that is just, like, it's just so offensive, and every time he's--Ben  23:58It's intended to mimic what white people make as sounds when they try to, you know, do Asian voices or language, and it's just a continuous shit show of racism.Lexi  24:12Oh, Ben, every time the character is on the screen, a gong sounds.Ben  24:15Yeah, I remember that part.Lexi  24:16Like, oh. [groans frustratedly] So then, Sam goes to the dance because she still has a thing for Jake, and she has to bring people with her, and now enter Michael C. Hall.Ben  24:17Oh, he's Ducky, right?Lexi  24:31And his creepy little character because... No, that's "Pretty In Pink". Come on. Jesus Christ, Lexi. Get your shit together.Ben  24:39Oh, god. I'm mixing up movies. Well, I'm sorry that all good John Hughes movies start to blend together after a while. [Lexi laughs] Sorry, I can't specify which Molly Ringwald film we're talking about. She wears the same thing in every movie, too.Lexi  24:51No. She... Ben  24:52She looks exactly the same.Lexi  24:53She... Well, yeah, that's good.Ben  24:54I'm pretty sure she's in a pink dress in every movie.Lexi  24:56Okay, I will accept that. Anthony Michael Hall's character is Ted, and they refer to him as "Farmer Ted" the entire movie, which I don't really understand why that's the thing.Ben  25:06Oh, he's the one that gets sent home with what's-her-face? Lexi  25:09Yes. Ben  25:10Right? When she's drunk, and he, basically...Lexi  25:11Yeah, right?Ben  25:13It's a date rape situation. How fun. Lexi  25:15Well, and first, like, he won't leave Sam alone at the dance. He keeps following her around, won't take no for an answer, and she basically has to barter with him to piss off by giving him her panties. So... And then he pretends that he like got them, however, and is cheered on by, like, a full bathroom full of dorks-- not our people-- but then this devolves into a party at Jake's house. Everybody kind of winds up at this Jake's house party, where Jake's girlfriend is drunk and kind of an asshole. He kicks them all out and gives Ted the keys to his car, and his passed-out girlfriend in the backseat, and long story short, he winds up making out with her when she comes to, eventually.Ben  25:59Yeah, I remember that.Lexi  26:00And, when she asks, "Did you take advantage of me?" and he said, "No,"  and she was like, "Cool." [laughs] Like, what?!Ben  26:08Wait. Don't they actually end up, like, doing it in that movie? And neither of them remember it, or am I thinking of another movie again?Lexi  26:15It could. You know what? Ben  26:16Remember that they, like--Lexi  26:17I haven't seen it in a while.Ben  26:18"I don't remember if we did it or not," and then they're both like, "Yeah, we did it," and it's like, that's supposed to be cool or something, and I'm like-- and, like, a virtuous moments where--Lexi  26:24That does sound about right. Ben  26:25Yeah, I remember throwing up. Like, I don't think that movie even sat well with me in the '90s when I was a teen, seeing it for the first time. I was like...Lexi  26:32[whispers] No.Ben  26:34"..eugh." Yeah,  Sixteen Candles is gross. What else? Is there anything else gross about  Sixteen Candles that we need to mention before we move on? Don't rewatch Sixteen Candles. It's no good.Lexi  26:42Don't. Well, it ends with Sam getting Jake and he gets her a birthday cake, and, you know, it's this beautiful moment between the two of them, but it's just like, she spent the entire movie comparing herself to other people, about how she was shit and not good enough for him, and he spends the entire movie pissed off at the world that he lives in because he's, like, this wealthy, white dude with a dumb girlfriend, and he's brutal to her. Like, he's really mean to his girlfriend, like, sends her off to be, like, you know, ravaged by some stranger.Ben  27:15Yeah. He sends her off to get raped. Lexi  27:17Yeah. And then it's like, "Okay, movie over." Ben  27:19Yeah, and I remember him also saying like, a bunch of really crass shit to her before, because she's drunk, and being like, "I could abuse you all I want if I wanted to. Yeah, it's super fucked-up and that's supposed to be a virtue for this guy--Lexi  27:31Yeah, he's the good one.Ben  27:32--that he looks down on her for being drunk.Lexi  27:34Oh.Ben  27:35Yeah. Fuckin' dumpster fire movie, and so this is why, like, people, you bring these up and they'll be like, "I fucking hate Ron Hughes." Yeah, Ron Hughes. I don't know who that is, but I hate him, too, just for sounding like John Hughes. [Lexi laughs] Fuck you, Ron.Lexi  27:50But, I think it's also like, the genre of, like, rom coms. Like, eugh. This is where it's kind of like stemmed from some of these teen movies . People think, "Like, this is maybe like the norm?" Like, "No, it isn't. This isn't good."Ben  28:04What's next on our on our shit shower?Lexi  28:07"Weird Science".Ben  28:09Are we doing "Pretty in Pink" at some point?Lexi  28:11"Pretty in Pink", technically, comes after "Weird Science". "Weird Science" was released in 1985.Ben  28:16Oh, we're doing these chronologically? Okay, my bad. Okay, "Weird Science" it is. So like, are we even gonna find teen... Like, John Hughes defined this era and defined what it meant to be a teen in this era, so I guess we may not get away from his movies. I mean, "Footloose" wasn't one of his, so that was good, but that's wild. It's basically just a John Hughes shit episode. Fuck you, John Hughes.Lexi  28:37But, no. I've got some redeeming ones.Ben  28:40And your brother, Ron. From John Hughes? I don't agree.Lexi  28:44I've got one. I got a couple that I'm gonna fight for, saying they're good.Ben  28:47What? Okay, you're gonna have to try real hard to make me like john Hughes in any capacity. "Weird Science", let's just get the premise out of the way. These two losers decide that they're going to robo-code their-- I'm just gonna use fake science words 'cause that's what they do in this movie-- they're gonna robo-code their digi-ideal woman and build her to be perfect and subservient to them. The whole premise is fucked up and weird and gross, and then, through the magic of--Lexi  29:11Yeah, the magic of science.Ben  29:12--science, I don't know, this woman comes true. She's there. Suddenly, they built her, and they can do anything they want with their new robo-girl or whatever. [Lexi sighs] Lexi  29:24And... [groans].Ben  29:25The only thing that's redeeming is a nice title song written by Oingo Boingo, the new-wave band from the '80s.Lexi  29:32Ah, Oingo Boingo. Yep. I know that it was this whole, you know, the dorks or the geeks strike back where like Revenge of the Nerds and that was also another popular problematic movie of the era, of just, like, dorks who aren't... You know, it's basically like  these, the nice guys, the incels.Ben  29:52Incels.Lexi  29:53They can't get-- no girls will pay attention to them 'cause they're not popular jocks. Wah, wah, wah. So what we're gonna do--Ben  29:59No, this is great. I like this line we're riding. I like this. This is, we are what's-his-face from It's Always Sunny.Lexi  30:07Dennis?Ben  30:08No. Not Dennis. We're not Dennis. Nobody's Dennis. Dennis is a sociopath. Lexi  30:11I was gonna say.Ben  30:12Ferris Bueller is Dennis. Lexi  30:13He's a serial killer. Ben  30:15Well, that's--Lexi  30:16Mac?Ben  30:16No, not Mac. Goddamn. Charlie.Lexi  30:18Charlie?Ben  30:19We're Charlie at the wall with the line, and we have just gone from John Hughes movies to the nice-guy phenomenon, and then straight on past that to the incel, the current incel disgusting thing that we have going on. Lexi  30:35Well, all of like...Ben  30:36It's all Ron and John Hughes' fault.Lexi  30:39Anthony Michael Hall basically played an incel [chuckling] for, like, his entire teenage youth--Ben  30:46God.Lexi  30:46--of the best friend who's just waiting around. "When's it gonna be his turn, gosh darn it?" because that's what it takes.Ben  30:52Yeah, and if I put in enough, you know, "nice coins" into the Woman Gashapon I will get the sex prize in the little ball. Lexi  31:00Exactly. Ben  31:01Yeah, I mean, fuck, as a white male, this is the kind of shit that I was taught, too. Like, I had some very strong, and I mean that as in of character, women, who... I mean, I could have been a very shitty person if I didn't have people that were better than me that helped me learn to be better. That should have been the responsibility but, like, "Thanks for being in my life to help me not end up like these fuckers." 'Cause I didn't get that from, like, my upbringing and, like, watching this kind of bullshit, or from, like, my religious upbringing. You definitely were taught that, like, the idea was that you put those wonderful little friendship points in, and eventually, you're gonna get what you want back out of it, which is not a relationship with another human being. It's vagina. Lexi  31:46Yeah, they just, the pure physical nature of it. But then, if we can move on to Pretty In Pink, which I think Ducky is the worst character for that, is the most blatant character for that. I mean, like, he's--Ben  32:01Oh, yeah. He's nice guy.Lexi  32:02[groans] He is so horrible, such a, like, you know, kickin' rocks and, "Aw, gee, when's it gonna be my time? Nobody loves you like I love you," like, gaslighting Molly Ringwald's character.Ben  32:15Unrequited love sort of thing is supposed to be, like, romantic, as opposed to creepy.Lexi  32:20Well, and speaking of creepy, then James Spader's creep-ass character is even worse because he's the king gaslighter of pretending to absolutely hate Molly Ringwald's character, Andie, but then, secretly is like trying to get with her and like, "Yeah, there it is. There's the douchebag," and I did know guys like that in high school that would pretend, "Oh, we don't talk when we're at school, but then I'll message you on MSN later tonight."Ben  32:48Yeah, I mean, this this is where I get ranty because this leads me into one of my hot topics and also not a sponsor of the show. [Lexi laughs] Wish they were. Do they still exist?Lexi  33:01Yeah, they do. There's one at Market Mall.Ben  33:04Yeah, you can get, like, records from them, and film. They're the only place that sell record players and film anymore. Lexi  33:09[laughing] Yep. Ben  33:10But this is one of, like, things that gets me kind of passionate is that, when this kind of subject comes up, men get mad at people pointing it out, white males specifically get mad at people pointing out that, like, this was sort of the culture that we were steeped in, what we were built to be like. I feel like men should be super fucking angry that this is what society tried to turn us into, did turn us into. Like, but instead, we double down on this shit. We get mad. We try to defend it. We try to defend that like "culture", but like, we should be fucking pissed all the time about what society, what our society, patriarchal and you know, colonial as it is, like, what it tried, and tries, and continues to try to turn white men into. Like, but dudes just don't get pissed at that. For some reason, they just can't. They can't find that, and it makes me mad on a daily basis. I see myself as, sort of like, this robot that was built by, you know, these fucking people to do this thing, and it makes me mad every day that I almost didn't have a fair shot at being like a normal-ish human being that could treat people with empathy and kindness because of this kind of media, of this kind of culture, this pervasiveness, and yeah, fuck it. It just gets me that other dudes, you know, aren't just constantly pissed off about this.Lexi  34:27Well, when you talk about, like, systemic racism, and lots of people are like, "There's no such thing ," which is bullshit--Ben  34:32Yes. [along with dancehall airhorn] B-b-b-bullshit. Sorry. I hadn't gotten one of those in in a few episodes.Lexi  34:36That's all good. We've gotta have one of those per episode. I feel like these, like, not necessarily these ones but movies like these, this is a part of it, of just like keeping everybody in their place, and telling everybody what role. "You sit on that chair over there. You wear that type of T-shirt." Like, this is-- and even like looking at the '90s movies, it's just as bad because now we have like--Ben  34:59Oh no. Yeah, definitely.Lexi  35:00It's just as bad, and even now, I was thinking like, "What are the current teen movies?" They're not that different, really.Ben  35:08I don't really know. Well, no, 'cause I guess it's still the same machine, and the same systemic system. [laughs] The same systemic system that's still turning this shit out. It hasn't-- like, the decision makers, the money and stuff, are all of a certain, I don't know, persuasion, ilk, build, and so that hasn't changed, so why would the content change? You know, there might be veneers put on things from people at certain parts of the process, but the assembly line is still largely the same and has the same intent. The blueprints haven't changed.Lexi  35:41You know--Ben  35:42Have I mixed my metaphor enough?Lexi  35:45You got a little... They're good. Ben  35:46Yeah. Lexi  35:47Like, just so thinking of the other podcast, "Art Intervention", there was one episode where I found out a lot of research about why the art industry, especially, like, art galleries, and museums, are so white, and one article I found was talking about, they're super white because those types of institutions, typically, they don't have a lot of government support. They don't have any, like, you know, public money coming in that's really keeping the lights on, so you really have to rely on the private sector for donations, and, unfortunately, a lot of the wealthy patrons for a lot of these big, big institutions are, largely, white patrons, and they don't wanna feel uncomfortable, and they don't wanna feel like--Ben  36:38No. It always comes with strings.Lexi  36:40It's always coming with strings, and so they don't want you to be bringing in an artist who is calling out the white patriarchy of the art society. They want someone who's gonna like, you know, ruffle a little feathers, but not be too, you know, radical, and so it's creating this industry that is perpetually keeping people in their place and keeping the dialogue moving along, and I think, like, some institutions are getting a little bit better, but it is a huge problem in the arts, and a lot of times people are like, "Oh, but the arts are... You know there's so many black actors that are very famous," and there's'--Ben  37:19What does that even mean? Lexi  37:21Exactly. Like, it's still an industry and it still has a lot of problems, and I think we're just scratching the surface on the whole like #MeToo" Harvey Weinstein thing, and even the fact that, like, #MeToo was appropriated from a black woman who had been talking about it for years, and all it took was, like, a couple white actresses to be like, "Yeah, I've had similar experiences," and pfff, it blows up. Ben  37:44Yeah. What was that shitty joke, where, like, the white dude is like, "Oh, if I was in charge of equality, you know, we wouldn't need feminism anymore," or something. Or like, "If I was in charge of feminism, we'd all have equality by now," something like that.Lexi  38:03That's a great joke.Ben  38:04The idea is that the joke is in the idea of this guy saying that he could fix a problem that he is the creator of, or part of the system. [Lexi laughs] There's the joke. You're supposed to laugh at the premise of the guy.Lexi  38:17It's so sad, though. Like, "Yeah. There it is."Ben  38:21[Lexi laughs] Speaking of sociopathic white males, let's hit Ferris Bueller. [along with dancehall airhorn] B-B-B-Bueller. Lexi  38:28[along with Yello's song, "Oh Yeah"] Oh, yeah. Bom-bom. Chik-a-chik-a!Ben  38:31I mean... [along with Yello's song, "Oh Yeah"] Oh yeah. Bom-bom. So that basically--Lexi  38:36[along with Yello's song, "Oh Yeah"] Bom. Oh.Ben  38:38That's enough right there. Really, like Ferris Bueller is a sociopath. He manipulates everyone. He can't empathize with other people's feelings. He manipulates his friends into doing things because he thinks it's for their own good. Like, he gets to decide what's best for Cameron. He gets to decide how Cameron deals with his emotionally-abusive parents or like, "Oh, steal the car." Eugh, but, like, Ferris Bueller is just a smug piece of shit, and, you know, Matthew Broderick, I like you enough, but you're much better in Godzilla 2000. [Yello song "Oh Yeah" continues]Lexi  39:06I think the real hero of that movie is Jennifer Grey's character, Jeanie Bueller. Jeanie is the true-- 'cause she's the only one that sees him other than Ed Rooney, Jeffrey Jones. She's the only one that sees him for his bullshit, but she sees it, more or less, like a sister just wanting to rub her brother's face and like, "You're not all that. How about that, kid?" Like, it's more she just wants to prove him wrong, not ruin his life, like Ed Rooney, but she's trying so hard the entire movie to get people to, like, see through his bullshit, and I always felt really bad for her because I was like, "Yeah, he shouldn't be doing all those things." [Yello song "Oh Yeah" continues]Ben  39:49Yeah, he's a terrible character. Yeah, that movie. You know, you've got Ben Stein in there as well, and he hasn't held out well. He's aged poorly, as far as he--Lexi  39:51Has he?Ben  39:52His movies are pretty, pretty shitty. He's a pretty smug asshole most of the time and very-- [Lexi sighs]Lexi  40:11Well, I mean, same with Jeffrey Jones, hey? [Yello song "Oh Yeah" continues]Ben  40:14Oh yes, I know what happened to him. We don't need to discuss that. That's just such a--Lexi  40:17 Yeah, that's--Ben  40:18A disgusting human being, so we're better off--Lexi  40:20There's a couple, like, Charlie Sheen, like that's--Ben  40:23Who, Charlie Sheen was in that?Lexi  40:25Yeah, he's the creepy dude that's hitting on Jeanie in the police station when he's like, "Why do you care so much about what your brother does?"Ben  40:32Oh man, now I remember that.Lexi  40:33He's the one that kind of like helps her, right?Ben  40:35Yeah, yeah. [Yello song "Oh Yeah" continues]Lexi  40:40Controversy comes from us all, Ben.Ben  40:41"Just be more like Charlie Sheen," is a thing that nobody should say. [laughs]Lexi  40:44No. Be more like Jennifer Grey is what I think.Ben  40:49Like, the actor or the character?Lexi  40:53Eh, the character in this one.Ben  40:53I don't know anything about the actor.Lexi  40:56Neither do I. I hope that she's not... I hope that no one is, like, actually.Ben  41:01Do we have anything that can bring us back? Like, we need some redeemable teen movies. I had a little bit of being like Footloose could be fun still. Are there ones we can watch? I've got one more that I sort of like.Lexi  41:11Oh, I've got one I love. Ben  41:12I'll do mine. You're more passionate. I'll do mine first. It's called... [laughing] Oh, god now I'm blanking on the name. Lexi  41:20Uh-oh. [laughs]Ben  41:21It's with Christian Slater, and he is a, like, pirate radio host. Pump Up the Volume. Lexi  41:28Okay.Ben  41:28So, there's some stuff that doesn't do it for me, which is sort of that, like, white suburban kid ennui that you see in, like, the '90s. It's technically a 1990 movie, but it was produced... That's when it was released, so it was produced in the '80s. So it's got a lot of that, sort of like, white teen ennui that we see in the '90s a lot with, like, the navel gazing and, like, "Let's just, you know, not worry about anything except our white privilege problems." So there's a little bit of that, but there's also a lot of like, sort of challenging the way that kids' problems are sort of downplayed by adults, or like, they're tried to be brushed aside when, like, you know, kids are actually suffering with problems. One of the things is a student kills himself and, like, that's sort of an impetus for the main characters to sort of go on and speak out about what's happening and tell the other students not to be quiet and to, like, live their, like... "Talk hard," is his line in the movie. Talk hard and, like, say the things that are a problem for you, and not hold them back, so I feel like I could rewatch that one again. I feel like it probably is watchable. He gets arrested at the end for his pirate radio, which is just such a great idea, a pirate radio, broadcasting illegally on the FM channel. Fuck, can you do that? I wanna broadcast illegally on an FM channel.Lexi  42:52I think it is something that's elite. Like, you have to be allowed to do it.Ben  42:56Yeah, I mean, I just don't even know anybody who'd be interested. Why do that when you can make a podcast? [both laugh] Yeah, I guess, you know, somebody would still have to tune to your pirate radio frequency, so... [chuckles]Lexi  43:11They'd find you.Ben  43:12Yeah. So the villain of the movie or whatever, is like the FCC comes to find Christian Slater's character and shut down his pirate radio.Lexi  43:21The FCC won't let him be.Ben  43:23Yeah, the FCC won't let him be. [laughs] Lexi  43:26Thank you. Thank you for that.Ben  43:27You're welcome. Thank you. I don't know what you're thinking me. You did it. That's great.Lexi  43:31I always like a good laugh, Ben. You know? Ben  43:33Yeah. I think yeah, give Pump Up the Volume a watch if you haven't. I haven't watched it in a while. I should re-watch it, but let us know if I'm wrong about that, and if it's a total trash fire, as well.Lexi  43:44I'm going to end this with a bang, Ben, because I'm gonna explain to you the greatest coming-of-age movie of the John Hughes-era is Uncle Buck.Ben  43:48Okay, so here's my thing with Uncle Buck. Is it a teen movie, though? Lexi  43:58Yes.Ben  43:59You think?Lexi  44:00I think so. I watched it all-- I watched it with my mom, and then I watched it with my friends when I was, like, 15, and I've watched it many times since because, I don't know. It was about, like, to me, it was about connecting with an adult in your life.Ben  44:16That's interesting. I appreciate that take. I guess I just find, like, the centering of John Candy as the main role in that, sort of, takes it away from being a teen movie for me.Lexi  44:24But that's why I think it's key because teenagers are so stuck in their own bubble, that it's hard to see your angst when you're living in it, and I think that was the reason my mom made me watch it.Ben  44:35Oh, interesting. So you were saying, like, the point-of-view character being the adult but having the show and the content geared at a teen gives you some outside of your own situation-ness, some self-awareness.Lexi  44:47Yeah.Lexi  44:48'Cause, see, like his... Oh, gosh, the... bup, bup, bup... Tia, so Tia is 15 and she's the oldest of the three kids and she's like, if you've never seen the movie, she's a cow. Like, the entire movie, she's just being an asshole for no purpose.Ben  44:48Interesting.Ben  45:06No, I've seen it a number of times.Lexi  45:09I watch it every Christmas. That is my Home Alone. Ben  45:11It's been a while, though.Lexi  45:13And it's just because she's so brutal, and then John Candy's character comes in and, you know, she's got a couple of lines that she says that are just horrible, so, so mean and callous, and then, she treats her family like garbage. She winds up shacking up with a dude who's trying to take advantage of her, and I think that this is really key, and a lot of people should watch it that if you are a 15, 16, 17 year old, and you are dating someone who is older than you, it is not an equal relationship. I'm sorry. It just isn't. And that's something that, like, when I was a teenager, I was like, "I can take care of myself," and so many times, like, yeah, to a point and then you pass a line, and then it gets real tricky, and what I like about that is, even though she treated people poorly, like, John Candy came to her rescue and supported her, and helped her to take her power back from this douchebag who tried to hurt her.Ben  46:12Right. So, in a typical John Hughes movie, we'd see her get a come-uppance of some sort of degradation or sexual assault as, sort of, the character arc. Like, "Oh, that'll teach you to be a b-word, though. You got what was coming to you. Haha." But that doesn't happen in this film. Interesting.Lexi  46:29Well, it kinda... Like, it almost does. Like, her boyfriend tries to pressure her into having sex. She's not ready so she leaves the party, and he does, like, make fun of her, and then, John Candy comes and finds her walking away from the party and, you know, she's embarrassed and whatever, and then he basically kidnaps the boyfriend in the back of the car, and then they hit golf balls at him to really, like... [laughs]Ben  46:53Sounds good to me. I'm fine with that.Lexi  46:56I don't know. Like, it's still you're right. Like, she's still like, there's that, like, "Haha, you were almost, like, you know, taken advantage of."Ben  47:02"That will show you."Lexi  47:02"That's what you get for being a little bag," but I just feel like, of those movies, this is probably the one that has, like, aged the best because even John Candy's character is so flawed. Ben  47:15Yeah, yeah.Lexi  47:16And it shows, like, all these redeeming qualities about him.Ben  47:18Yeah. I mean, that sounds like a good synopsis to me. I'd rewatch that. I'll give it a shot. And you all should give that a shot too, see what you think, see if there's some aspects of that film that we forgot that maybe cause it to bump off a little bit, although it sounds like Lexi watches it pretty regularly, so she knows what's up.Lexi  47:38I'm gonna be really sad if someone out there is like, "But, did you forget about the scene?" Because probably.Ben  47:43Maybe, but you know, that's just an opportunity. Yeah, this is an opportunity to appreciate what happened there, and, you know, that doesn't mean you have to stop watching Uncle Buck. It just means we have to somehow create a 15-minute episode addendum to this that people are forced to listen to that, "Okay, so there's this part in the movie and we have to talk about it where things go blah blah, blah." Yeah, I have to imagine that we'll end up doing a lot of retraction or correction episodes. Maybe that should be just a fun off-week thing we do. We do, you know, corrections and just 15-minute episodes every other week when we're not on our regular schedule. "So here's some shit we got wrong last week," and we just list it.Lexi  48:27Yeah. Just, "Sorry about this. Sorry about the following things."Ben  48:30"Said this. Didn't mean to."Lexi  48:32Ben, we haven't done Who's That Pokémon? yet.Ben  48:35Oh, fuck. Let's do Who's That  Pokémon? here. I think we've got another little ways to go. We should do a wrap up, but let's do a Who's That  Pokémon? Is it your turn again to come up with the Pokémon?Lexi  48:46Well, I've done many. I'm happy to keep explaining wet bags of sand to you, but do you wanna take a crack at Who's That  Pokémon?Ben  48:52I didn't come up with one, so it'll be on the fly. Yeah.Lexi  48:54Oh, do it.Ben  48:54I'll do it unless you have one prepared. Lexi  48:56No, no, no. Ben  48:57Okay. Okay, [along with "Who's That Pokémon" theme music] Who's that Pokémon? and I will describe now the Pokémon with which you need to guess. Lexi  49:06Excellent. Ben  49:07It's sort of like a pitcher.Lexi  49:09Okay.Ben  49:11Imagine an upside-down... No, right-way-up, like a pitcher as in, like, a vase. Not a--Lexi  49:18Okay, like, like a pitcher of lemonade. Ben  49:20Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then there's, like, some sort of leaves coming off, leaf-shaped protrusions, one on each side of this pitcher.Lexi  49:30Oh, my god.Ben  49:30And then there's also some sort of circular balls atop the pitcher.Lexi  49:35Are you explaining an actual Pokémon to me or is this like a...?Ben  49:38Yeah, yeah.Lexi  49:39It's an actual Pokémon! Oh, I thought we were being cheeky here and--Ben  49:43No. It's time for us to break out our--Lexi  49:45Anthony Michael Hall. [Ben laughs]Ben  49:47Oh shit. That's not bad. Lexi  49:48Oh, I gotta remember.Ben  49:49I'll change it. It's no longer Victreebel. It's Anthony Michael Hall. You got it. [Lexi laughs] [along with "Who's That Pokémon" theme music] Who's that Pokémon? [Lexi laughs]Lexi  49:59It's Anthony Michael Hall. Ben  50:00I'm gonna Google you a picture. [scratching record, DJ-style]Lexi  50:03Oh, Victreebel. Ben  50:04Yes. It was a real Pokémon.Lexi  50:05Damn it.Ben  50:06I think if I ever do them, they'll probably be real Pokémon.Lexi  50:09We still have to do a Pokémon episode.Ben  50:11It'd be interesting to talk to Mr. Hall and ask him how he feels about his part in the rise of incels.Lexi  50:18I'm sure he probably doesn't see it that way. [laughs]Ben  50:21I don't think many people do, as a child actor. I'm sure there's a lot more going on. I am being glib for the sake of humor.Lexi  50:27Hey, Ben, he had a redeeming role in Edward Scissorhands, where he dies.Ben  50:31He had a lot of good TV roles.Lexi  50:34Yeah, he has. He's had a very big career.Ben  50:37Mm-hmm. This is now the Anthony Michael Hall podcast, where we just talk about--Lexi  50:42Dissect him.Ben  50:43--the different works of Anthony Mic-- Michael Hall. I can't say his name anymore. It's lost all meaning.Lexi  50:50AMH.Ben  50:51AMH. He's been active as an actor since 1977. Is that something you knew? Lexi  50:56Wow. No, That's, that's...Ben  50:58He's 53 years old. He was born in 1968, April 14th, in West Roxbury, Massachusetts. Can we stop and talk about Massachusetts for a second? And how difficult a fucking place that is to say?Lexi  51:10Yes. I have such a hard time with it, I'd rather just be like, "That place," or write it down and point to it because I feel like I can't say it appropriately.Ben  51:17Yeah, and I'm not gonna make fun of the name 'cause I don't know its origins, etymology or anything, and I don't want to step on something, but, like, just saying, "Mass-a-chu-setts", like I've always said, "Massachusiss", or whatever, as a kid. I've always said it wrong, and then I was in New York, and I said, "Massachusiss", and somebody said, "What the fuck is wrong with you?"Lexi  51:35"Mass-a-chu--"Ben  51:35"Mass-a-chu-setts". Lexi  51:37"Mass-a-chu-setts". Ben  51:38Okay, yeah. It sounds wrong. Just say it-- okay, everybody at home listening, say "Mass-a-chu-setts"  about five times, maybe 10 times in a row, and see if you still like yourself.Lexi  51:49That's a tough homework assignment. [chuckles]Ben  51:52Yeah, enjoy. What else do we need to know about M-- Michael Anthony Hall? That's it. I'm good. Let's move on. [along with "Who's That Pokémon" theme music] Who's that Pokémon? We're back. We're back into the regular show, no longer the--Lexi  52:07AMH.Ben  52:08Anthony Michael Hall hour, the AMH hour. Is there anything else we should hit here on the way out? Lexi  52:15I mean--Ben  52:15Like, he produced or something Beethoven, so that's interesting.Lexi  52:18He also did Home Alone, which is a beloved movie.Ben  52:22Produced, yeah. He didn't--Lexi  52:23Oh, I thought... Okay.Ben  52:24But still.Lexi  52:25That's good to know.Ben  52:25He produced Miracle on 34th Street, which, you know, I've always enjoyed.Lexi  52:29He did Mall Rats, which again, like, is a very big movie [Ben groans] that I think a lot of people are like, "That's a cultural icon," but, like, it's also a very, like...Ben  52:39It is. Yeah, it's not a good flick. It does not hold up, and it is one of those ones that, like, yeah, as a rite of passage as a 14 year old, at least around our neck of the woods, you definitely watched, and thought was the greatest thing that ever happened. "Oh, shit pretzels." [Lexi groans] "Ha, ha, ha, ha. In the back of a Volkswagen." Lexi  52:59It's just...Ben  53:00Yeah.Lexi  53:00I feel like it's a really weird mix of, like, heartwarming children's movies and then, like, really problematic teen raunchy comedies.Ben  53:10Yeah.Lexi  53:10Like, well, it's an interesting mix you got there, pal. Ben  53:13Yeah. It's a wild time at Ridgemont High, which is movie I would have-- we should have talked about, but we didn't get to. That's fine, and I don't really remember enough about it except one of the Penn is in it. I think it's Sean Penn who was problematic, as well.Lexi  53:28Yeah. It's Sean Penn. Yeah.Ben  53:30Yeah, yeah.Lexi  53:31Oof. There's... We could... There's a lot of other very problematic teen movies. I mean, like, we've got the whole '90s to stare down. Ben  53:40Yeah.Lexi  53:41She's All That.Ben  53:42I mean, you know, those are movies that I definitely... Can't Hardly Wait. Lexi  53:46[groaning] Oh, I used to love that movie. Ben  53:50Of course you did. We all thought it was great. Lexi  53:51And I watched it recently. Oh, god.Ben  53:54No, I know. There's not a single aspect of that movie that I think holds up.Lexi  53:58Oh, you mean Seth Green's character isn't a redeeming figure throughout history?Ben  54:03It is an absolute travesty that that was allowed to become a thing. Lexi  54:08[whispers] Oh, my gosh.Ben  54:09That... yeah. The racism in that character alone in that, like, sort of characterization that we saw a lot of in the '90s and early 2000s is just wild. Lexi  54:19[softly] I know.Ben  54:19Just wild that that stuff had no critical second thought. Like, I know, we talk about, like, history and culture as these eras, and, like, we didn't have this sort of cultural awareness of these things at the time and, like, it's true, but also like, "So fucking what?" Like, that doesn't--Lexi  54:36Doesn't make it okay.Ben  54:37I just can't see that as an excuse. Yeah. Can't see it as an excuse.Lexi  54:43"Can't Hardly Use it As An Excuse?Ben  54:45[laughs] Yeah, Can't Hardly Wait to use it as an excuse. Like, I just can't use that as a way to be like, "Ah, I can still watch this film and not think of it critically," which I guess nobody's really asking anyone to do. Lexi  54:55But then it, like--Ben  54:56Problematic media is a whole other topic.Lexi  54:58It is, because it does beg the question of, "Do we look at the art versus the artist?" because then, like, we're leading into that era, and even, like, there's a little controversy this week with the old Margaret Atwood and her comments. Ben  55:11Oh, God. Lexi  55:13And I'm not gonna say that "I told you so, world," but I did say that Margaret Atwood isn't a great... I mean...Ben  55:20Well, I mean, she started to swing problematic for a while now. But like, this is also the advent of, sort of like, internet as well, is like, we did not have the information earlier on to know her thoughts on subjects that, you know, were outside of what she'd write about in her books, and maybe more intelligent people than myself picked up more of, like, her problems. I read her books, the ones that I enjoyed, which were like the MaddAddam trilogy, when I was in my early 20s. I don't consider that I was even like a proper adult human with critical thought until I was 25, so like, I still miss stuff all the time, and yeah, that's interesting. Margaret Atwood though. Way to hold my beer, JK Rowling. Jesus.Lexi  56:03Yeah, I did make a couple jokes of like, "Oh, she's really J.K.-ing herself this week." Like, just, if anyone has ever... Like, here's my piece of advice. Just stop. Just don't. Just don't. Like, and, a lot of times, don't weigh in. This is not a place for, "Oh, you know what I think about this?" Nothing. You think nothing about it. Shut up.Ben  56:23Oh, no, trust me that's a lesson I learned as a white dude on the internet that's like, more or less cishet, like, you know, maybe I don't need to offer an opinion on this. There's gonna be a lot of other takes, and I could probably do the most for myself by just reading how this goes out, and if I have questions about things, do some fucking Googling and try to understand these points that I'm having trouble with, and...Lexi  56:48Well, this has been a depressing and sad episode about our failed teenage years of just disappointing racism and sexism. [laughs]Ben  56:58Yeah. Well, you know, and again, this goes back to my really good analogy about, like, conveyor belts and machines or whatever. Like, we haven't fixed the problems with the blueprints and the machinery that's making this shit, so why would we expect it to be different? A different outcome just because, now we're aware that, you know, the shit shouldn't be happening, but apparently, we haven't taken the right action yet to correct where that's coming from, and so that stuff still comes.Lexi  57:29Well, maybe in another couple of decades we'll look at it a little closer. Ben  57:33We'll see. We'll see.Lexi  57:34The rom coms of the future are gonna be more uplifting and diverse and positive.Ben  57:38Okay, well, rom coms are a whole 'nother thing we need to get into 'cause Nora Ephron.Lexi  57:42Teenage.Ben  57:44Nora Ephron, I'm coming for you.Lexi  57:46I don't even wanna talk about rom coms because I don't think that I could say anything other than, "Bleuch."Ben  57:51We broached the subject. I mean, we kind of came into the teen movies thing with the intention of having some positivity to balance it out, [Lexi laughs] but it's hard when you have about 15 to 20 years, dominated by one figure, who has a way of looking at the world that's pretty shitty, and made all the, like, pop culture in that time.Lexi  58:10This is why you need a diverse group of people making content so that you have a wider array of things to look at to form your identity, because, when you're growing up, and the only teen flicks that are out the

It's time to finally go through all the sticky notes on my desk.  There are so many that it is going to take two episodes.  And it all starts with sticky note #1 “are thoughts energy”.  And we go on down the line.  Notes from “A Course In Miracles.”  LBGT conversion therapy freaks me out.  Am I going to publish this?  You can't rush the healing from divorce. Being a marketer and willing to try different headlines…relate to my telemarketing days.  AND MORE! Administrative: (See episode transcript below)Check out the Tools For A Good Life Summit here: Virtually and FOR FREE https://bit.ly/ToolsForAGoodLifeSummitStart podcasting!  These are the best mobile mic's for IOS and Android phones.  You can literally take them anywhere on the fly.Get the Shure MV88 mobile mic for IOS,  https://amzn.to/3z2NrIJGet the Shure MV88+ for  mobile mic for Android  https://amzn.to/3ly8SNjSee more resources at https://belove.media/resourcesEmail me: contact@belove.mediaFor social Media:      https://www.instagram.com/mrmischaz/https://www.facebook.com/MischaZvegintzovSubscribe and share to help spread the love for a better world!As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.Transcript: Mischa Zvegintzov  00:03I've been cleaning off my desk, as I have been focused on new beginnings. Well, or slight pivot. I suppose when I say new beginnings, meaning committing to shifting to Table Rush and, and a more business oriented direction. and my spirituality as it manifests through entrepreneurship.  Through my entrepreneurship, as I like to say.  But anyway, I've been saying for a long time that I would go through all the sticky notes on my desk, so I finally made a stack of them. There's got to be a good 20 of them right here. 15 to 20. And they're all ideas over the months since I started my podcast. And yeah, so I thought I'd get to it. First sticky in the stack "are thoughts energy?" I love that question. One of my first episodes I had lightly broached that subject. I have done no further research on it as of yet but I definitely want to make that in an episode. Because I think it's a great thought and a great concept.  Are thoughts, energy, and if so, what are the implications of that?  Next sticky, I desire this holy instant for myself, I desire this holy instant for my self, myself small s self.  That I may share it with my brother whom I love.  It is not possible that I can have it without him or he without me yet it is wholly possible for us to share it now. And so I choose this instant as the one to offer to the Holy Spirit that his blessing may descend on us and keep us both in peace. This this is from A Course In Miracles. I wrote that down from the Course in Miracles. if anybody's been listening to me for a while here you will know that I love the Course in Miracles and I definitely believe the Course in Miracles will have a positive impact on my entrepreneur. Mischa Zvegintzov  02:31Anyhow the holy instant like it's that moment being in the moment in the now when when you just know you're in tune with the universe and everything is good. Anyway next sticky going outside the recovery bubble re re in regards to re new like can't be read my writing re new it's either relationships or entrepreneurship or I don't know what it is.  but I have a line underneath that and then it says hard seems 2CCX is the entry point. is the entry point for what?!! For 2ccx that's the coaching group I'm in. new business ventures I suppose anyhow. next sticky nothing around me is but part of me look on it lovingly and see the light of heaven in it. So you will come to understand all that is giving you. the memory of God comes to the quiet mind. that's on the back of that sticky who I like that the memory of God comes to the quiet mind. This is more A Course In Miracles stuff. Nothing around me is but part of me. ie the illusion of separation. I used to talk much about that when the Course of Miracles was into that. love those thoughts? Oh, here's your next sticky saw this L G B B T conversion therapy and it freaked me out. and then I have a line on episode our thoughts energy meaning I still need to do that episode but I did an episode on this saw this LG LBGT conversion therapy and it freaked me out. when I was doing the the Tools For A Good Life Summit and inviting speakers and all that. I was looking for someone like more traditional religion person to go along with all my Eastern metaphysical stuff and you know the psychotherapy stuff.  I thought why not bring in like a priest or a pastor or a rabbi or something like that.  along with my energy healers.Mischa Zvegintzov  05:09As I was doing my research, all this conversion therapy stuff was popping up at the same time. I was watching. Shameless. Was it the, the the queer God? The sons can't remember. But anyway, and I was like, Oh my god. So the Shameless was kind of making fun of the conversion therapy stuff. I mean, dark subject matter isn't that it was like, Hey, this is real, but making fun of it. And then I saw that, oh my gosh, there's people like that's people are committed to conversion therapy, and it totally freaked me out. I was like, what bubble am I and I just thought it was bad TV. But nope, there's people out there trying to perpetrate that. Unbelievable. Next sticky. Oh, god, what's going to be on these episodes as I edit them? Read the Lisa Mischa episodes. You know what I record episodes, and I oftentimes won't edit them for publishing for a few weeks later.  And I'm like "what am I gonna find!?" and I have pretty much published everyone, no matter how frightening they are to me. So that was one of those moments. I must have recorded something with Lisa, my good friend, and then a little freaked out. All right, underneath that I wrote friend brought new guy over, fresh in divorce, reminds me of stories. You can't rush the healing. Yeah, took me a long time to heal from divorce man. And from heavy relationship breakups and I wanted the healing to be done quick, but the universe had different plans. So it reminded me that guy was in so much pain. and doing everything he could to just skip the skip the the healing process. And anyways, I did those episodes, you can route back through there, most of the stuff I ended up doing episode so it's fun to read these sticky notes. next. being a marketer and willing to try different headlines and work and learn real time. relate that to telemarketing and trying and writing objections and learning what to say. And I did that back on 3/11 or 3/12. So I did that 8, 7, 8 months ago but yes, I love that thought. When I would do my telemarketing campaigns, I had teams of telemarketers and then a lot of solo telemarketing. in the in the home mortgage industry as well as other industries. The financial services and and high tech. but for a good solid 15 years in home loans. And I would also do mailer campaigns to get the phone to ring. but you had to as I would develop new niches, you would need to talk to people and fail forward.  so you would talk to people to figure out oh, what are their objections, so you could learn how to handle them and fail forward. so you would have to have to start talking to people and lose deals till you figured it out what worked. and so the same thing I'm in the same space now trying to do headlines and funnels and offers and all that and I need to remember Hey, "you got to you got to do it you got to go real time and learn". next sticky I do not know what anything including this means. Let me start again I do not know what anything including this means. And so I do not know how to respond to it. And I will not use my own past learning as the light to guide me now. I love that that's more of Course in Miracles stuff and and basically you're trying not to bring your past trauma forward. So as new experiences are happening, we can say hey, this is fresh. This is new. My past doesn't matter here so I don't know how to respond to it. No and I use my past content to guide me forward or my past issues or whatever.Mischa Zvegintzov  09:50I will not use my own past learning as the light to guide me now. Am I willing to look at things with new eyes? I love that Sure I did an episode on that. Ooh, here was another thing. This was from Russell Brunson at the beginning of this to 2CCX, which I started just over a year ago. It's this high end coaching and he said somewhere in there, "just identify, smile if you even if you are worn out". It's like this is going to be hard work. It's going to be a slog sometimes so just identify, identify with people. and I love that thought, look for the similarities, not the differences. Smile, even if you are worn out. And I've been doing a lot of that smiling even if I've been worn out. My gosh, I'm about what halfway through. You know what I think I'm going to do is that's good enough for this one. I'm going to do a part two. So that is the sticky note Episode Part One. Eye where I say I've been saying for many months, many months that I would go through all the sticky notes on my desk. And here I am doing it so love to all thank you for listening. Look for sticky notes, part two, assuming I publish these episodes love to walk

Selwyn O. Rogers MD is the Dr. James E. Bowman Jr. Professor of Surgery (first James E Bowman professorship), Chief, Section of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery Founding Director, Trauma Center and Executive Vice President, Community Health Engagement University of Chicago Medicine    March 2021  Senate Judiciary Committee Selwyn O. Rogers Solutions for prevention and treatment of gun violence:  1. Re-frame gun violence as a public health crisis  2. Allocate $1 billion to fund research to prevent gun violence commensurate with the burden on society. Given the $43 billion NIH budget for research, a significant amount of dollars should be allocated to gun violence prevention research since this has been lacking for decades.  3. Develop and fund primary prevention strategies A. Invest economically in high-risk communities of color that have a disproportionate burden of intentional gun violence to build jobs, increase earning capacity, provide housing and give people hope B. Educate and counsel people on safe firearm storage C. Screen people at risk for firearm injury or death D. Engage communities on social determinants of disease, such as poverty, and connect them with social services through hospitals and health-care systems  4. Victims of violence are known to be at very high risk to be involved in repeated episodes of violence.4 Target this high-risk population and develop and fund secondary violence prevention programs:  A. Fund street outreach programs that prevent retaliatory violence B. Fund programs for those at the highest risk of recidivism that provides transitional jobs and cognitive behavioral therapy.  Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/selwyn-o-rogers-jr-555688aa/Twitter https://twitter.com/selwyn_rogers https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/forefront/trauma-articles/selwyn-rogers-james-bowman-professorshiphttps://www.meharry-vanderbilt.org/all-news-community-engagement-news/selwyn-rogers-and-david-satcher-discuss-violence-seen-throughhttps://www.migrantclinician.org/users/selwyn-o.-rogers-jrhttps://www.migrantclinician.org/streamline-2016-fall/making-the-biggest-impact-with-dr-selwyn-rogers https://news.uchicago.edu/profile/selwyn-rogershttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uPrL4khRschttps://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Rogers%20Testimony.pdf Everett T Lyn MD is the Former Clinical Director and Director of Faculty Affairs and Development Brigham and Women's Hospital. Former Chair, Department of Emergency Medicine North Shore Medical Center  Former Chief Medical Officer Dignity Health Care and Former Assistant Professor of Medicine Harvard Medical School. Transcript:  SUMMARY KEYWORDSgun violence, Chicago, mentor, trauma, communities, talk, son, care, mentees, story, life, public health, risk factors, emergency department SPEAKERSResa Lewiss, Everett Lyn, Selwyn Rogers  Selwyn Rogers  00:02Historically, gun violence has been treated as a policing problem. And not looking at it from a public health plans. And by that, I mean, looking at the lived experience built environment, upstream factors that contribute to gun violence. And there's been overwhelming focus on the incident to the gun than the person who's struck and not the context in which that injury occurs. Resa Lewiss  00:38This is the visible Voices Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Resa Lewiss. Before we get started, here's a word from the creators of the emergency mind podcast. Advertisement Resa Lewiss  01:05Hi, listeners. Welcome to today's episode where we're talking about gun violence and thinking about gun violence through a preventive solutions oriented public health lens. Public health is the science of protecting the safety and improving the health of communities through education policymaking and research for disease and injury prevention. By two guests are Dr. Selwyn Rogers and Dr. Everett Lyn. Selwyn grew up in St. Croix and he came to the United States for his higher education. He's currently the James E. Bowman Jr, Professor of Surgery. He's the chief of the section of trauma and acute care surgery, and the founding director of the Trauma Center at the University of Chicago. Selwyn and I first met when I was in training in Boston, he was the chief resident on the general surgery service, and I was the rotating resident. So I had the luck of seeing firsthand his leadership style and his mentorship. My second guest is Dr. Everett Lyn. Everett is an emergency physician. He's formerly the Clinical Director and Director of Faculty Affairs and development at the Brigham and Women's Hospital department emergency medicine. He's also formerly the Chair of the Department of Emergency Medicine at North Shore Medical Center in Boston. Everett was born in Jamaica, and he too, came to the United States for his higher education. Now, it was quite a feat. And quite a treat to get both of these gentlemen to join me in conversation. They are friends for over 20 years. Oh, I forgot to add a thing about Everett. Everett was everybody's favorite attending when they worked with him as a resident. He also won the emergency medicine Educator of the Year Award every single year. Okay, I digress. In the episode Yes, we talk a little bit about statistics and data and facts. But more so you hear the actual experience of Selwyn and Everett and what it's like to work in the emergency department, work in critical care situations and work in the setting of gun violence. We're talking about years of experience in cities such as Boston, Chicago, Galveston, Texas, Los Angeles, and more. When the episode gets started, Selwyn is talking about when he's first started at the University of Chicago, and he's contacted by a journalist from the French newspaper Le Monde. Selwyn Rogers  03:24It was January of 2017, I just newly arrived at University Chicago medicine in order to stand up an adult level one trauma center on the south side of Chicago. By way of context, there had not been an adult level one trauma center in the Southside of Chicago for over 30 years. And in the context of that reality, there obviously was a lot of trauma on the south side of Chicago there is in many urban settings throughout the United States. In this particular interview request from Le Monde to talk about this, the level one trauma center. I was struck back by the reporter's requests. He wanted me to take him on a tour of the Southside of Chicago and show him some gangbangers and I was like, What do you mean gangbangers? And he said, Well, you know, show me where all the people who are getting shot are. And it really set me back because I was like, Well, this is about trauma. This is about social determinants such as poverty, inequality, and lack of equity, and how that drives people's being at risk for trauma, normally gun violence, and in many ways he wanted to sensationalize us as it was bad people doing bad things to each other versus thinking about The larger context in which this trauma was occurring. So I basically respectfully declined the interview, because I didn't think that this was going to lead to anything fruitful. Resa Lewiss  05:10Yeah. Any regrets regarding declining that? Selwyn Rogers  05:14Absolutely not. I mean, I think one of the things that I think we have to do this change the narrative around what violence is what trauma is, and only by changing the narrative, will we be able to have a lasting impact? Resa Lewiss  05:27Just before the episode started, we were talking about Venn diagrams of overlap. And when I think about and look at the two of you, there's some commonalities. You both have the experience of being parents to three sons, you both have the experience of childhood being outside the US. And I'd like to ask based on your experience, as a trauma surgeon, your experience Everett, as an emergency physician, coming to the US, parenting, fathering three sons, how has the work affected you? And what you see on a daily basis influenced the way you care for your children? Selwyn Why don't you take it first? And then Everett. Selwyn Rogers  06:10That's a great question. I have three African American sons, they're aged 25, about to be 26 on December 1 22, and 19. And, you know, they're all currently, you know, out in the world doing what they want to do. But certainly, when they were younger, I often gave them various vignettes stories of how they need to behave in the world, if you will, you know, as my eldest son who's not 25, or 26, was the first to learn how to drive. I remember giving him the lesson about, you know, if you are driving in the police stop you, you need to keep your hands on the wheel at all times. Be very respectful, you don't know what's going to happen next, and you can't take any chances. And, you know, as someone who works closely with the police department, with respect to taking care of victims of violence and crime, it's sad that I had to give that lesson to my three sons. And, you know, it's one that that many people would probably not even think about having if they weren't a person of color. Now, I'll give another concrete example of an observation that my middle son made when he and I were on a trip to Portland, Oregon for celebrating his birthday has happened to be during the weekend of the Women's March, and Portland. And he were in an elevator together. And my middle son is six, five, so he's a bit imposing. And a white woman walked in the elevator, and he lowered his shoulders, he made himself more welcoming. And it was so striking to me knowing that I know him well, that I asked him afterwards. Why did he do that? He said, Well, I wanted to hurt feel comfortable in an elevator with two lack men. And it's a process that he's internalized, and he's done somewhat instinctively, living at America that's still divided. Resa Lewiss  08:41Thank you. Everett. Everett Lyn  08:45I don't think my story's any different from Selwyn. One of the biggest fears I had when my boys were young, was the fear of not seeing them coming back through the door when they leave. And it was constant teaching. Not only that, I tell them to put their hands on the steering wheel. Usually in law enforcement, ask for your driver's license and registration and I usually teach my son to say to them, I'm going into the glove box. Do you want me to get the registration or do you want to get it? And it was a defensive mechanism because I didn't want my son or sons being killed because they thought he was reaching for a firearm or something like that. So I did the same things that Selwyn did. And I also was a bit more I can say a bit more but I was very protective. I made sure just as a parent I was there in certain places when they were getting off this school bus. totally white neighborhood to pick them up or dropping them off and watching them get on the bus. Because the trustworthy part was just not there, I was always a bit in fear that they may leave through my door and may never come back. So it's similar stories. Resa Lewiss  10:22You both are intentional about the way you mentor, who you mentor, and probably by whom you mentor. And this is before mentoring, sponsoring coaching became trendy, and there were lots of Harvard Business Review articles about it and books written. And, you know, Everett you and I met in 1997. And you are someone to whom many people came for advice and input and mentorship. And what I saw. And what I know is there's an there's an element of organic connection with people, but sometimes it's intentional, and you intentionally made sure women, women of color, men, men of color, specifically students of color, were mentored and you spoke to them and you let them know how to help navigate healthcare and our healthcare training. I reviewed your CV Selwyn and your listing of mentees is similar. You've mentored a lot of women, and a lot of students of color. And I'd like each of you to comment on how you see mentoring. And also, if you can share a story of mentorship, not someone you mentored but someone who's been a mentor to you, no matter who that was. Everett why don't you start? And then Selwyn. Everett Lyn  11:39Yeah, it's a little bit difficult, because I sort of, I'll tackle the last part of your question first. I really had no good mentor, per se. And it's funny. I think it was a few years ago, I was on the Harvard campus and somebody says, Well, Dr. Lyn, who was your mentor, and I bust out in a laugh, because I really didn't have one. And to be honest with you. I patchworked and I think most of the things that I did it probably similar to Selwyn, growing up in the island education was always at the forefront from our parents and family. It was always about education. The emphasis on education was how you lift yourself up and move forward and how you progress, which is what I instill in my children to this day. But I sort of patchworked and seek advice from different people at different times. I think in terms of mentoring people, I think it was just a natural acumen for me It started out that people just sort of gravitated towards me and I just develop in advising people and some of it was from personal perseverance and just things that I've been through. And not letting them step in potholes that I have stepped in along the way. Selwyn Rogers  13:18I'm a couple years behind you Everett. And then I had the benefit of having mentors, like you. You know, it was striking that sometimes just the presence, even though we weren't in the same department, but having now the African American man who was a leader in the Department of Emergency medicine was a form of informal mentoring. But like Everett, I will also echo that probably my biggest mentor, our you know, my mom and dad, you know, I think that they instilled in me a certain sense of self, a certain comfortable, comfortable in my own skin, if you will, that progressed throughout my academic life. I mean, I didn't start off thinking I wanted to be a professor of Surgery or chief of, of Trauma. I mean, I started off I want to be a good person. And that was really instilled and then in my parents, and I still try to sell that same set of values in my children. Everett Lyn  14:24Self-discipline, self discipline. Selwyn Rogers  14:28Yeah, yeah. And a degree of resilience to I mean, I think that sometimes people forget that it's not about the failure, but it's about getting up again after the failure and a big part of mentorship is encouraging people that after they have a failure or setback that doesn't define them. And that's a big part of mentorship. It's also a big part of sponsorship. Supporting people when you don't even know that you're supporting them. And to your question about why mentoring is such an important part of my professional life. It was because I didn't have many people that look like me throughout my training and early faculty development, and it was very important to me to, to see more people who look like me, irrespective of what their diversity of thought would be. Because I think just having that diversity of presence goes a long way oftentimes, and changing how people view others. When I was starting off my training at the Brigham, there was a single African American man who was ahead of me in training. And you know, now it's probably about 30 40% of people of color that Brigham in surgery, never mind in other fields. So I think there's work that has been done that's been successful, partly because mentoring. But I also do think that, that we still have a long way to go. Everett Lyn  16:15If I may take 10 seconds. There is a story or resounding story that I always mention: I was in a hospital in Boston will leave the name out, but we know what it is. And I remember this so vividly. Because I've told the story over and over. An African American lady came in and I was caring for her. She was deeply sick. And she said to me, when all the other people walked out of the room, first residents and nurses and she said Dr. Lyn, can I speak to you for a minute, and I stayed behind and she said, this is a true story. She says you're a doctor here? And I said, Yes, ma'am. And she says, I didn't know they hired Black doctors here. And I was shocked when she said that. I just said, I said Yes, ma'am. And I said, not only that I'm in charge of the emergency department. I'm the attending and one of the directors here. And she was floored. She says I've been getting my care here for 28 years, and I've never had a Black physician care for me. Well, I just want to tell you, she had dead bowel. Okay. And Selwyn was not on that night and Selwyn was at home and it was a weekend night. And I called Selwyn, because of her comfort level that she exhibited to me. And I asked him if he could come in and we could work it out with the surgeon on call. And I can truly tell you that within 20 minutes to half an hour, I had her ready for the operating woman. Selwyn was at her bedside. And that story always resonated with me. There are not many people on a weekend, even if you're a dedicated surgeon who do that. So your compassionate leadership stands out. And it's no surprise that you are where you are. But I wanted also to ask the question about this public health tragedy if you have seen any differentce since you have been in Chicago and I just keep reading Chicago tends to make the headlines every single week about the number of deaths and the number of people shot and I read a recent New York Times article where the number of people who have been shot this year is much more than last year and more than 2019. And I just wanted to get your take on how things are up there. And what are the differences that you've seen since you started your work in terms of outreach with the community? Selwyn Rogers  19:00Yeah, it's a it's a question that keeps me up at night. We have certainly seen in all US cities, probably on the order of a 30 to 40% higher rate of gun violence. In each of our urban settings here in Chicago, specifically between 2019 and 2020. There was a 50% surge and in gun violence at the University of Chicago specifically, we went from seeing about 3000 trauma activations a year to see 5000 trauma activations a year: 40% of which was penetrating trauma. 90% of that was gun violence. And the numbers are staggering because each victim has multiple people connected to that person And it's a larger community around that individual. With respect to how it's been approached, you know, the story of gun violence in Chicago is one that became highly politicized during the 2020 election. I don't need to do to go more into that. But I think that, that clearly, Chicago became more and more of a symbol of gun violence, even though the rates in St. Louis and Detroit and Philadelphia are just as high or a little higher. Having said that, historically, gun violence has been treated as a policing problem. And not looking at it from a public health lens. And by that, I mean, looking at the lived experience built environment, upstream factors that contribute to gun violence. And it's been overwhelming focus on the incident, the gun than the person who's struck and not the context in which that injury occurs. Taking a public health framework, you will focus on a combination of preventative factors and risk factors to help change the course of about a public of gun violence, and specifically, addressing upstream factors that lead to gun violence in the first place, a lack of economic opportunities. inequities, and educational opportunities, lack of jobs, all of those things are the backdrop for seeing high rates of intentional gun violence, on top of the fact that we have a preponderance of guns in our society. Resa Lewiss  22:09Yeah, to your point, violence is complex. And you really, there are a lot of things I love about what you just shared. Number one, you essentially gave a nice definition of public health. you've highlighted that as surgeons, yes we can fix blood vessels, we can sew someone up, but that's not treating their soul. And that's not filling out the experience of what happens when they leave the hospital doors. I wonder if you can elaborate a little bit on that? Selwyn Rogers  22:36Sure. You know, one of the things that trauma care has been focused on obviously is stopping the bleeding controlling the damaged bowel, controlling of hemorrhage and sepsis. But that doesn't take care of the whole human being. And I think the at times missed opportunity is taking the incident that occurs in the context of trauma. And using that as a teaching moment, if you will, or a moment to wrap services around the individual and their family, in order to try to make a difference in a person's life. The analogy from a medical perspective that I would often give is having someone come in with a heart attack and not addressing their hypertension and their smoking history and their sedentary lifestyle. We would think that's an anathema not to take care of those aspects that are risk factors for repeated myocardial injury. Violence is in many ways, similar. There are certain risk factors, and certain protective factors, protective factors like family and church and entities that lift people up. But they're also risk factors, living in a chronically disinvested community as a risk factor for being a victim of gun violence. And what we might try to do is wrap around services- around the individual and their family who've been victims of gun violence and connecting them with resources in the community that they may not know of. But we basically have a kind of a warm handoff if you will, above and beyond providing direct patient care. And with the thought being that patient care doesn't end when the patient leaves the hospital, but it's a part of the continuum of their life. I think the other thing that I really hope that we as a nation embrace is thinking more about primary prevention, I mean, what we really want to do is not let people be shot in the first place. And some of that involves some policies around gun possession. But I think others we will need to involve on how do we invest more accurately in communities broadly? And give, especially young people more opportunities to make a difference in their lives? Resa Lewiss  25:31Yeah, I like this concept, a lot of the wraparound services, it makes sense. It's holistic. I wonder if you think there's this element of othering. HIV in the 80s didn't get the attention that COVID did. And gun violence, especially when it's put in this context of like, oh, Chicago, oh, urban. Oh, lower socio economic status neighborhoods. That's the other. That's not me, my family, my children, my neighborhood. And I think there's been literally a call to attention by subject matter experts such as yourself that no, this is everybody. And this is affecting everybody. But I still see the resistance, which is why I ask. Selwyn Rogers  26:15There is a sense of the other I heard one person say once, if this was all happening in white communities, white wealthy communities there would be a lot more focus on fixing the problem. Specifically in Chicago says it's a great city, Great American Cities, City of 77 neighborhoods, but specifically, gun violence is hyper endemic in some communities more than others, mostly on the south and west sides of the city. And those are the communities that are primarily Black and Brown communities in the city of Chicago. There is somewhat of the other, it's happening over there, not in my backyard. I'm concerned about it, but doesn't really affect me in a daily way. It affects everyone. I mean, I think it's not unique to Black and Brown communities, I think it affects all of all of the city. The other thing that I think is often not discussed, when we mentioned gun violence is the high rate of self-inflicted gun violence in the context of suicides, and disproportionately that happens in and among white, older males. But we don't talk about that in an epidemic way. We talk about that in the episodic way. But that's similarly, a tragedy where we aren't focused enough on mental health and protection of those who may risk taking their own life and finding ways to help them as well. Everett Lyn  27:56So that question as Selwyn was answering, I was wondering if the model that he had has in Chicago and the wraparound services and the community reach out services, if that's something that's adaptable to other cities that anyone could employ? Or is that something that could import to other communities and cities? Selwyn Rogers  28:22There are lots of good people doing good work and community. You know, be it you know, after school programs or, you know, teaching kids how to, to box or, you know, other sporting engagements. What we often don't do is, is connect the isolated hospital, to the community. And, and I think finding ways to do that in an effective way, is very important. Resa Lewiss  28:58I want to shift the focus to something we've addressed indirectly, which is the toll that trauma and gun violence takes on healthcare workers on physicians, such as Dr. Selwyn. Rogers, such as Dr. Everett Lyn, such as Dr. Resa Lewiss. I'm going to read a quote and ask each of you to sort of discuss how you've maintained self-maintained that self-actualization and overcome times of burnout. So this is from your (Selwyn's) judiciary committee report. At trauma centers across the country, we have seen the pain with our own eyes, we have cleaned the blood from our own hands. Sometimes the blood soaks through our scrubs and socks. We can wash away the blood but the pain stays with us. I cannot fully grasp the tragic impact of the lives lost. Yet I'm still hopeful. If we take concrete actions now, if we do the small things now then we will create the big changes later, these changes will stem the tide of gun violence that has become such a devastating problem in our country. And there was an article from Philadelphia that talked a bit about work life balance and your experience. So with whatever you feel comfortable sharing, what did that look like for you? And now that you're the other side of that? How do you instruct your mentees, for example, or your trainees? Or, what do you how do you keep yourself in check? Selwyn Rogers  30:31Yeah, it's a constant battle, daily battle. When I, unfortunately, when I go to trauma bay, here in the Southside of Chicago, 85% of time, it's Black male, usually between the ages of 18 and 25 26, who's the victim of gun violence. And, as I relate at the start of our session today, my kids are 19, 22 and, and 25 almost 26. But I, I think every time this could be my son. And, and that, you know, I have to suspend that in the moment of taking care of the critically injured person. But when all that we have tried to do fails, and the person dies, and I have to go talk to that mother, that father, that brother, that sister about their last son, or daughter, or last child hits me, and it hits me in the context, when I hear the cry, when I hear them say, go back in, you can find a way to get them to survive, or you know, the sense of hopelessness that the person has in that moment. It tugs at you, and you may not have that moment, then to process that, but it catches up with you. And the way I try to deal with it, I have a very supportive family and I talk to them about how my day was, and I don't sugarcoat it, I'm sure my wife Kimberly exactly what happened, and how it made me feel. And that's very helpful. You don't keep it all in, you actually get it out. And with respect to my mentees and trainees, I encourage them about the importance of self-care, of not keeping it all in and also highly encourage people when they're feeling blue or down to seek professional counseling with mental health providers, psychologist, psychiatrist, because I do think it does take a personal toll on us over the course of time, especially if we don't share with others. Everett, your thoughts about that? You've been doing it a little longer than me. Everett Lyn  33:28Yeah, I think it's about this same Selwyn. And I think I can share a couple of quick stories. One is that gun violence leads to a lot of teen deaths and children that is the leading cause of death in the US and early in my career, when I when I started seeing children die, it was gut wrenching for me. And I just remember, there were times when I had to talk to a mother or parents about the death of their child. And one of the disturbing things in the emergency department is that you're caring for about 50 patients at the same time and you have five minutes to spend with them, no time to spend with them. You know, you have to move on because there are sick patients waiting for you. And it wasn't ideal but seeing a child die is just it just it took me out and it was hard to deal with that and very difficult. So I shifted my career of everything that I've experienced. I moved my career more to the adult side of caring in trauma bays and trauma units and emergency department because it was just so devastating and difficult to watch children die and similar to Selwyn: I stay close to my family and my children and One of the things that all of this has taught me, I use running just to decompensate: I run a lot, and I just use it to try to keep me level and keep my thoughts level and help me with my stress levels. But most of all, I do what Selwyn does, I talk to my family and I speak to my children a lot. And to the people, I mentor or my mentees, I talk about work life balance as much as I can, and for them to seek help when they can. But the single most important thing that I've gotten doing this for over 30 years is the value of time, I've got grown more and more to respect the value of time each minute of every day of every hour. And I try to make sure that whatever I'm doing with my time, that it's either serving others, which I think is really critical: its affecting somebody else's life in a positive way. And service to others, as one person says we're at our best when we're a service to others. And I tend to believe in that. But I share with you the value of time and the importance of time and how little people tend to look at that sometimes, we always think we have time. But that's true, isn't it? That we always think we have time. So just seeing so many deaths in trauma bays and trauma units and emergency departments has just reinforced that notion. Selwyn Rogers  36:50I couldn't agree with you more. Time is one commodity that we don't have enough of. It's very precious. And when you see a life taken away from you, it just reminds you of that reality. Resa Lewiss  37:07What a conversation and I think like what I said at the beginning of the episode, it was quite a treat, and quite a feat to get these two together on one podcast episode. So here's the deal. Gun violence affects everybody. From my perspective, gun violence is all of our responsibility. We all have a duty or responsibility and we can all make a difference. Join me next week where I'm in conversation with Dr. Carol Bernstein. And with the founders of the Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes Foundation. We talk about physician mental health and physician suicide prevention. Talk to you then. The visible Voices Podcast amplifies voices both known and unknown, discussing topics of healthcare equity and current trends. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us on Apple podcasts. It helps other people find the show. You can listen on whatever platform you subscribe to podcasts. Our team includes Stacey Gitlin and Dr. Giuliano DePortu. If you're interested in sponsoring an episode, please contact me resa@thevisiblevoicespodcast.com. I'm based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and I'm on Twitter @ResaELewiss. Thank you so much for listening and as always, to be continued

After discussing leech-themed cocktails (1:30) and another round of Leech Anatomy 101 (4:07), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Pan's Labyrinth's leechiest themes (11:28), scenes (22:00), and characters (28:10). To get some relief, the guys head into their first Leech on a Beach segment (35:17). They conclude by considering the film's medicinal qualities (38:49) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film's leechiness (44:10).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:"Leeches" Cocktail: https://www.ayearofcocktails.com/2012/05/leeches.htmlCredits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher ThomasTranscript:Evan 00:05Hello everyone, welcome back to the Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. I'm your host, Evan Cate. And I'm joined by two leechy gentlemen, Aaron Jones and BanksClark.00:16Hey guys. 00:18How's it going?Evan 00:21The Leech Podcast has a show about movies that suck the life out of you. They also stick with you. They may even be good for you. Like a leech. If you're wondering what this means, think of a movie that you saw that you knew was amazing. And it also took so much out of you that you thought I don't think I can watch this movie ever again. And somehow, some way. Later on, you watch the movie again. And it is the best thing you've ever seen. That is a leech movie. Some of our listeners are wondering, how did y'all discover leech movies? Well, the three of us discovered our shared love of leech films. When we used to teach together at a school. We found quickly that the three of us are bleeding hearts, who love films. And we all know that blood attracts leeches. So we used to teach together, but now we leech together.Banks 01:27That's a good one.Evan 01:29Thank you. Thank you, I wrote that myself. We would love for others to join us in this leechy endeavor. So if you're interested in talking to us sharing ideas, please hit us up @LeechPodcast on Twitter, and theLeechPodcast on Instagram. We've already heard from some listeners who got some great ideas. Last week we asked about leech cocktails, what would be great drinks that have a leech theme and very grateful for the listeners who shared a cocktail called leeches. Here's the recipe guys. I'd love to get your feedback on what you think about this cocktail. So the recipe for leeches: -three shots lemonade-half shot vodka-half shot peach schnapps-a quarter shot of Canadian whiskey. Preferably black velvetOkay, guys, what do you think?Banks 02:20A bit sweet for my taste. I don't know. Do I do leeches like high blood sugar? That's my question.Aaron 02:28Hey, I was thinking the appropriate lee ch cocktail might be a little stankier--like a little bit like a bleeding armpit.Banks 02:44How does one make a bleeding armpit, Aaron?Aaron 02:42I'm waiting for the listeners to figure it out.Evan 02:45It's quite the challenge that Aaron has posed to our listeners. And I do think that that was a worthy effort, but we will take more suggestions on the leech cocktail. I believe Banks has a concoction in mind. They don't want to Oh, sorry. Was that too soon to spoil that?Banks 03:00Hey, this is what I'll say..beet juice is included. So that's all I'm gonna say at this point.Aaron 03:07 Mmmmm, snaps and clapsBanks 03:09I heard the pandemic ends. You know, we will get together and we will fine tune what this is we want to hear from you guys about what your ideas are. We'll try them all.Evan 03:21Okay, nothing beats a leech cocktail. Probably a great segue into something new this week, we're gonna have a new segment called “leech on a beach.” This is a segment dedicated to fun or humorous parts of the movies because we realize many of these movies are very serious and very grueling. And sometimes some levity is needed. Beyond our puns, we thought we wanted to really highlight leechy fun parts of movies. So stay tuned.Aaron 03:50Yeah, a little vacation, little vacation.Evan 03:52You can sip on your leech cocktailAaron 04:00for the leech on the beach segment. Evan 4:01 All right, so without further ado, Aaron, please teach us about some leeches with “leech anatomy 101”Aaron 04:08Leech Anatomy 101. This week and I'd like to talk to us about leeches teeth. leeches teeth. Couple years ago, 2019 they discovered a new leech. I'm looking at the News & Observer, Smithsonian researchers who discovered a new leech that had a three jaws each containing 56 to 59 teet--56 to 59--this is a leech that bites and bleeds humans. And so intriguing to me. You look imagine this you're looking like at a straw--this is like the leeches mouth--like three rows of teeth going down into like a little cave. Oh my goodness! This is the thing that's sucking on you! And as I was reading this article, the researcher said the way they discovered this leech was simply by walking into a swamp, just south of DC and Maryland. Walking into the swamp in shorts and flip flops, and seeing what would come up when they walked out? By golly, this little critter with 56 to 59 teeth per each three rows came up attached, greenish brown with some little orange speckles. And that's a leech with some teeth.Evan 05:26Wow. Thank you for that.Banks 05:28Thank you, question mark?05:48Those were some leech teeth. Wow. Okay.05:33teach us about leech-us.05:36So let's, let's all keep this in mind as we dive into this episode of the Leech Podcast. Our movie today, of course, is Pan's Labyrinth, a wonderful film directed by Guillermo Del Toro. And to give us a synopsis of this film, Banks, take it away.05:55Happy to! Obviously about to give a synopsis. So spoiler alert! If you haven't seen the movie, this would be a good time to pause it, go watch it, come back, the recording will still be here. It'll be well worth your time. But find the right time for this movie, that's for sure. It's not, not the one that you want to have to lighten the mood. But it's a wonderful film. Another quick thing is just a quick trigger warning. This is a film that has some pretty serious, just very heavy themes, especially around childbirth, but also it has some really nasty gore scene. Nothing absurd. This isn't a slasher film by any means. But you know, there are some things involving a razor blade that is, that'll stick with you a little bit like a leech. So just wanted to cover that, my guess is we might be talking about it. So just wanted to make sure those are out of the way. And make sure that y'all know about that before we listen to that. So this is a film that bridges between just some really brutal realities of the Spanish Civil War that really holds no punches at all. And then is also paired with some just wonderful wimzie of fantasy throughout. And so it's a film that goes back and forth. And the movie just sort of layers these in, almost like a very strange leechy layered cake of realism and fantasy. One after the other. The lead character is a little girl named Ophelia. And Ophelia is the daughter of Carmen, who is sort of pregnant with her younger brother. And the younger brother's father is named Vidal who is a captain of sort of the like, what is the faction called? I think that they're called the...Aaron 07:58Falangism? Yeah.Banks 08:00Is it the Falangist movement?Evan 08:01Yeah. So it's like fascist Spain. Right. Banks 08:02Yeah, you know, a very authoritarian regime. And so we're sort of thrown into the film and when they're sort of driving out to go meet the captain. And as they arrive Ophelia finds a labyrinth. And after doing that we're sort of then introduced from into this sort of fantasy realm where she meets a fawn, who then gives her a series of trials where she has to, you know, get a key from a toad and then she has to go and you know, get a dagger from a pale man at a feast, and then finally has to then take her younger brother into the labyrinth. And while all this is happening, at the same time, we have, you know, the mother struggling with sickness and childbirth and having traveled too soon. We're seeing the rebels battle in the Spanish Civil War into this gruesome detail, as hostages are detained and tortured. And it sort of escalates further and further as Ophelia progresses more and more in these different trials. And it's both happening as if these two stories are intertwined, but also, the contrast between the fantasy and the reality is incredibly stark, and the movie does a masterful job of balancing these two motifs, and playing them off of one another. And then finally at the end, the last trial Ophelia must take her younger brother into the labyrinth, where she then refuses to spill his her brother's blood. But then she is followed by Vidal, by her at this point stepfather, who then shoots her. And Ophelia dies in the final scene, because she refused to spill the blood of her innocent brother. And as she dies, we also get this sort of fantastic…. We're sort of swept up and taken to her then becoming a princess, the princess Moana of the underworld in a very positive sense. And then she is shown to be like, these have been what all the trials have been building towards, both in reality and out of reality, both at the same time. And so that's how this movie ends. It is an incredibly difficult movie, but also an incredibly powerful one. That I don't know about you guys, but I was left exhausted at the end of it.Evan 10:25Indeed, thank you. Thanks. So we're gonna move into our categories. Our first one is leechy themes. So Aaron, what was the theme? That was Leechy for you in this movie?Aaron 10:37I want him to talk about the theme of fatherhood in the film. I think I told you both that I watched this film for the first time many years ago. And actually before I was myself a father, and I had one reaction to it, then I think, I thought, you know, I, first of all, I never want to watch this movie again. And here I am having watched it a second time with you all. So it's stuck with me though it's stuck with me. But I have to say that being a father now my daughter is seven years old, beloved to me, and watching this movie about a young girl just a couple years older than my daughter go through a lot of suffering I... and without a father in her life to protect her ….or without it just she's an incredible danger so many times, and I think I had this experience of helplessness. As a father watching the film, like there's nothing I can do to help her protect this girl. And I mean, she's perfectly capable a lot of times of protecting herself. But I was intrigued by the ways in which like her in the absence of her father, becomes crucial to the film. And also the way in which fatherhood becomes one of the fantasy elements of the film. What do I mean? What do I mean? I was intrigued by the moment early in the film before Ophelia has met Vidal, who will become her who's her stepfather figure. Her mother says, “I want you to call him your father.” And Ophelia resists this notion so many times throughout the movie when Mercedes says, Oh, you know, your father wants you to call him. “He's not my father. He's not, he's not my father,” she resisted so heavily. And her mother says to her, “it's just a word. Say it. It's just a word.” “Pretend” is what her mother is saying. And that's one fantasy. She won't pretend like there's this deep allegiance to this missing father. And the last thing I'll say, is that Vidal also seems to have this obsession with fatherhood, he desperately wants to be a father--but only to a son. To the point that he...he almost seems cold and lifeless, totally uncaring, unfeeling when his wife dies, so long as the sun is preserved. And we know that's part of his character the whole time that he he only cares about the coming of the Son and his own becoming a father. And I'm intrigued both by, I'll be brief here the, the fixation on his watch. The broken watch, which his father without his father broke at the time of his own death, so his son would know when he died. And then, with Vidal, he sees the rebels with their guns, pointing at him he wants to break his watch. He wants to be remembered to have that same masculinist legacy. And Mercedes says, Your son will never know who you are, you will be erased. And there's something so painful about that, but it feels entirely deserved, like this kind of fatherhood is a reality that should be embraced.Evan 13:40Yeah, thanks. And I think to pick up on that. He's such an extreme version er has such an extreme understanding of fatherhood. And it fits a lot of other parts of his personality, right? He's the most brutal of anybody in the film. He shows no mercy to people who disagree. with him. And he is part of an ideology that is itself. So extreme. It's extreme nationalism. And, and he's not the only extreme character in the film. And I think that's why it's extremity or going to extremes is is my theme for the movie. There's revolutionaries, who will go to extreme measures to overthrow the fascists. Fantasy is woven throughout this film, which shows these extreme versions of reality, these extreme creatures, these extreme trials and quests, all that Ophelia has to undertake with these bloated toads, or this very, extremely pale man. And the film itself even kills a young girl, it's willing to take that step, this extreme step. And so I'm just struck by the extremes of this film, on a thematic level, on a personal level. But also the extremes of beauty in this film. It's funny, you guys had to convince me to watch it, because I thought it looked really scary. And I was so struck by how many scenes took my breath away, because they were so beautiful. And I left the film with a lot more questions. Just wondering, how do you hold together these extremes? And it seems like, somehow for Ophelia these extremes that she she is thrust into, due to choices made by her mom and her stepdad. Her answer is to go to her own kind of extreme, this extreme fantasy world, which is itself painful and scary at times. And yet, it's also beautiful. And it's this way in which she deals with the extreme situation she's in with an even deeper commitment to extreme beauty.Banks 15:30Yeah, it's, I think that Guillermo Del Toro's ability to create a beauty that is odd in some senses. But even when I watch it, you know, I also like Aaron said, I watched this back in high school, and I thought that, “This is such a cool movie. It's great.” And then I watched it again now and I'm like, Hey, this is an amazing movie and be Oof. Like, I was, I remember, you know, we all watched this together, and we were all speechless. For a minute. We were on a zoom call silent, together, just not knowing what to do with it. Partially because of the difficulty, but also because of the beauty of it, how it's masterful and putting that in terms of extremes just make so much sense. I don't know if Aaron, you had anything to say before I jump into mine?Aaron 16:29 No, please go aheadBanks 16:32I think that I just sent around the question of, it's about imagination and the question is this about imagination? Ophelia is fantasy world, something that is simply an escape from the traumatic reality that she's in. This interplay between trauma and imagination, for me, is incredibly powerful. You know, I was an art teacher for eight years. And as a result of that, just ended up being utterly inspired by students facing down incredible difficulty through art and imagination, to the point where I left and now I work in mental health. And so when I watch this movie, all I can, I'm asking, “Well, is this just about imagination as an escape? Or is this about something more than that?” I love that the film just creates this dynamic interplay between those two and we are just left to wonder left to be thoughtful with a bit of a mess at the end. You know, so much of the film is, you know, I think about the opening scene where she, Ophelia walks into the woods because her mother is experiencing morning sickness. And she finds this odd winged bug. And this, and she immediately knows that this is a fairy. And then in sort of in the seclusion and darkness as her mother sleeps back in the house, this transforms into an actual fairy that anybody could recognize, you know, with human form, and dragonfly wings. And it's that slippage. Is this happening? Is it not? Does she actually go into the door that she carves into a wall and face down the world's most frightening monster with eyes in his hands? Or is this simply a flight of fancy? And if it is, why does she fly to such frightening spaces? Why does she go to spaces that are not an escape that you'd want to go to? And I just think that that interplay is so powerful. And the power because it speaks to the power of stories and the power of imagination and the power of why we want to watch movies even to begin with. It's not because just escapism, it's because they speak to us for some reason in the midst of all of it. And that theme I have no resolution for. But man, it is stuck to me like a leech. I'll tell you what.Aaron 19:14Yea, Banks you just put a thought in my head that it's like. It's like in the world of reality she faces trauma and horror, and she has no no power, no quests, no influence. But she translates her trauma and horror into the language and symbology of myth. And then there she has agency in the myths, she has agency and influence and empowerment. And even though it's terrifying. And I just there's something about the creative space that is an empowering space, the fantasy space.Evan 19:47It's like the issue isn't the danger. The issue is agency. Yes. She's not afraid of danger. She's a brave girl. The issue is that with the doll, she's, she has no agency.Banks 20:03And with her mother's failing health. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what can you do? Right.Aaron 20:07Rather than put a Mandrake root in a bowl of milk. Banks 20:11Don't forget the blood. Aaron 20:13Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. More on that. Yes.Evan 20:19So indeed, more to come. So with those themes, the fatherhood extremes and imagination and trauma, let's think about some really specific things about this film. There are a number of leechy scenes that suck something out of you, but stick with you. I thought I would start. Mine in nothing very profound, I don't think but it is the scene where her first trial, where she goes down to find that key. And she meets this gigantic Toad, and she's in the muck underground. And it's just this large, bloated Toad, with bumps and weird colors and sounds. And it basically just, like explodes and belches out this key. And I don't think I'll ever forget it. And it's, it's stuck with me. So that's my scene.Banks 21:15Man. And I believe that there are things sticking on her and that seem to mean she's covered in. I remember, you're like texting to each other like, Oh, my gosh, she's covered in leeches! Evan 21:30It was very on brand for the Leech Podcast.Banks 21:35But like, she emerges from that, like from the stump covered in muck, right. And even then, right, she has been returned to the dinner party. Right, it's a moment of sort of the world, the extremes colliding, right. A powerful moment. You know, so for me, it's another one of the trial scenes, and oh my gosh, you know, I was alluding to it before but the scene with “the pale man” as it's called, right, with the feast of all the red foods, the murals of this devourer of infants sort of reminds me of Saturn Devouring his Children, this old like painting. Good heavens. It's frightening as anything. And here's this personification of all of that. with Hannah, the scene is literally it not only is very much just about the devouring of, you know, blood, and even the food is all red. All the foods are red. And blood is itself I think, a theme and a visual motif throughout the movie. But when I think of Pan's Labyrinth, unfortunately--I wish it wasn'--the image that comes to my mind is, you know, that pale man walking with his eyes in his hands next to his forehead. You know, full credit. I believe Doug Jones, the person who did sort of the body acting for that, and it's masterful work out amazing work and sort of practical special effects throughout this. That moment sticks with me and I think about it. And I don't want to be necessarily and I in the same way, I don't want that leech on me. Like when I think of the leeches scene, that's it. And it's an overflowing of imaginative imagery. It's full of these ripe themes. That also, it makes my skin crawl. So for me, that wins out. Aaron 24:03Yeah, it doesn't get much leecheir. I have to say, for me, I've scene that sticks with me and take something out of me is this scene of conflict, where I think it's one of the first times that I really remember in the film of Ophelia, and Vidal, her stepfather colliding. And it's the scene at her mother's bedside where Ophelia has been under the bed, tending to the Mandrake with the milk and the blood that she thinks is this healing agent that the Father has given her to help her mother's health and pregnancy. And Vidal finds the bowl and hurls the Mandrake root into the fire, and Ophelia turns and watches the child burn. And good lord, it's this moment of just incredible violence like talk about he who devours infants, he who destroys and is enemy to children, it has to be down. And then that moment, right, he again takes away all her agency, destroys that thing, where she's tried to take control of her mother's health. And you can just see all the foreshadowing in that moment that whatever fatherhood means to him, it's just gonna burn, it's gonna burn it's that moment is terrible.Banks 25:26Good heavens. Think about how that pulls together. I mean, talk about a moment where the extremes collide, the moment where it goes into the fire and you're wondering, is it just a weird root? They are, and then… it starts I can hear right now…Aaron 25:25[Shudders]Banks 25:26...the scream of that root. Oh, are those screams just in her head? Where are they? Are they real? It pulls together all the themes into this just melting pot of just discomfort. Oh, that scene, Aaron...I might have to change my vote.Evan 26:11I mean, these are very Leechy scenes and I guess I mean, Vidal is central in that last one. I mean, next you have a leechy, leechiest character because I feel like he would be in the running, perhaps. Banks 26:30Oh good heavens, I think he's a front runner. I mean, here's, here's the only thing. The reason why I actually don't have the doll as the front runner. Or as the leeches character in this case, is a leech is not the host. If nothing else Vidal is a person of conviction. He is a host... of evil in my opinion. I mean, he is the worst, but he is authentic. He believes and he has drunk the Kool Aid and he is all behind everything making no qualms about it.Aaron 27:12I mean, I think he has three rows of 56 or 59 teeth each Good lord.Banks 27:17I mean, but here's the thing I wonder if the leeches are the ones who are not even taking aside at all. And so I think of, if you look at the banquet, not the banquet that happens with the pale man, but of you know, you see a priest, you see all these people who are there, they're not the rebels. They're there just let me hold on to my wealth and I'm gonna say “Okay” to whatever. And to me that speaks a lot to politics right now. I I think that it's a that that might get a little too real but...Evan 27:49The priest, man….Banks 27:56So if I had to put my finger on an actual character though there, though it's Garces. He's the lieutenant under the Vidal. He's the one who's always uncertain. He [Vidal] always speaks to him. Like, “you know, do you know how a man dies? You know, go into battle. Don't be fair. Don't be afraid, you know, does that and then he just sort of learns that he dies and he just sort of has been. He's a character who was just leeching onto the host who is Vidal? Evil host that he is. He is he had he was spineless. And I'm gonna have to ask our anatomy expert. I'm gonna say Vidall has spine. But do leeches have spines?28:40I'm gonna hold that off until next episode, so those who want to get listening, we're gonna learn about leech spines on the next episode. Do they have spines? Stay tuned.28:51Good plug. Good plug. Aaron, do you have a leaky character?Aaron 28:57All right, let me think. I think I'm reading leechiness in a little bit of a different way. I'm, you know, Ophelia is always gonna be the character in this film, who sticks with me and take something out of me. And watching this watching her struggle, watching her overcome, and even like, stare down, stare down an armed man who wants to kill her? That's always gonna stick with me. Watching her refuse on the very cusp of achieving this mythic salvation that she's been hoping for watching her refuse to hurt the child in her arms. I'm not going to forget that. And that's, that's leads for me. So he does it hurts. take something out of me. But it's medicine. It's it's medicine too. That's what I have.Evan 29:50I think I'm interpreting my character similarly to you, Aaron. I first toyed with the idea of Vidal, which maybe we all did. Because he definitely sucks the life out of me. And kind of out of the film. I mean, every scene he's in, you're just like,”Ehhh” it's like fascism is exhausting. But like to quote Lebowski, thanks to your point Banks, “Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism? You know, it's an ethos.” He's terrible. Yeah, he has a spine, but it's in the worst ways, right? So I don't see some great lesson or there's no therapy for me in his life. And, and so the character that will stick with me, who I found myself drawn to again and again was Mercedes. I think she holds together these extremes of realism and fantasy in her own way. It is really beautiful. She is the most practical, the most inside the fascist place, knows everything, knows what's going on, has so much trust. And yet she's directing all of that towards this very idealistic thing, revolution, which is, and the bravery, the brilliance, the courage. It's so powerful, and I won't forget her character. And I mean, she has so many unforgettable, unforgettable scenes. And I think, to me... it I think it's fitting that she's the one who cuts Vidal. And she's the one who physically defeats him. She is, I think, the strongest character in the film. Yeah. I mean, many characters are strong, but to me, she, she seems to match Vidal in a certain kind of strength, a kind of political strength. And yet, even there, she does him because she cuts him but she doesn't kill him. She defeats him, but doesn't take his humanity from him. And so I just, I was so taken with her and she will stick with me. And I was so terrified the whole movie that she was going to die. And so in that sense, watching her journey and struggle, sucked the life out of me. Even though she ended up living at the end of the film. So Mercedes for me, is the Leechy character.Aaron 32:07There's something really fitting about her being, in a way she is, she is a mother figure to Ophelia. And many times she provides in ways that Ophelia's mother just can't. Because her life is being sucked out of her at least away from her by the child inside of her So Mercedes, also in a way becomes the recipient, I would say, of afilias sacrifice. Uh huh. She becomes the beneficiary. She won't ever forget a philia and therefore is a different person, I think, at the end of the film.Evan 32:44Okay, so listeners, we're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna pause now for our newest segment, “Leech on a Beach.”Evan 35:32I'll start us off. This is a scene that is, I wouldn't say necessarily light. It is very violent. But after Captain Vidal, gets his mouth sliced by Mercedes, he sews it back up himself with a mirror. Very painful, it looks terrible. And then, too, I guess, disinfected, he takes a sip of whiskey. And it comes out of the wound that he's just sewn up, and he spits it out because it's so painful. And maybe it says a lot about the state of my soul, but I laughed out loud at that moment. And that was my leechy scene, or not my Leechy scene my leech on a beach, in part because it also then made me think of Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight, and the Joker. And all I could think was “Why so serious?”Aaron 33:54Oh, I was gonna say, Evan, this is not what my experience of vacation looks like. Normally when I'm going to the beach, I'm hoping for a better vacation than you just gave me. But I'll uh, I'll answer that I'm gonna try and be a little more lighthearted. And that for me, like when How do I go on vacation in this movie, and this hard movie? I'm still getting the live site data man. I'm at the beach is still leech at the beach. For me, it's for me the character in the film. Who does that, for me is the character of the light. The sunlight in the film for me is its own character. Just like when I'm at the beach, you know? And if you watch scene by scene, the way that the light presents itself in the film, as as a golden light, or is this light clear as water at different moments in the forest? For me, that's when I find myself receiving ease and going on vacation in the middle of a hard film.Banks 34:56I think that Ophelia the actress is Ivana Bachero. She has one of the world's most authentic smiles. And you see it every time something fantastic occurs, she gives this smile. It's the smile that says there is good still, and there is joy still. And yet something can be well. And in spite of all the heaviness that happens, man, that's like a summer breeze on a sunny day. I will enjoy that every time. And it like there's this weird thing right? When she meets a fairy, she finds a rock and like, shoves it into like a statue as its eye and then like a little bug shoots out of his mouth. Everyone else in their sasne mind would freak out, she smiles.Evan 36:05So I think that's a good segue to our next category which is “Hirudo Therapy.” The fancy way of saying the medicinal value of leeches. And I think maybe I'll start us off. I think for me, the idea in this film, or the thing that sticks with me, that makes the film, not just painful, but also instructive, is kind of this idea that when you're in pain, you should dive deeper into what is beautiful. And yet also, as you do so, you become aware that beauty itself brings its own kind of pain. I'm just struck by the ways Ophelia in the midst of all the suffering that she's in, she she dies, she moves toward beauty, but even that beauty is scary and hard, but it's also what she needs, it seems. And so, I guess my lesson is that the opposite of pain isn't happiness or the absence of pain. It's beauty. Only beauty can re-narrate, or redirect, or bring a new kind of order to pain and loss.Banks 37:21And it's not because it's the opposite of it, right? It's just the next step. Right? It's the answer as you put it.Evan 37:30And I thought about, there's a quote attributed to Dostoevsky, which is “Only beauty can save the world.” And I think it's a great quote, I think it's true in many ways. And I looked into it a little bit. It comes from a passage in the novel The idiot. And it's in a scene where this Prince is looking at a painting of a woman. And he says, “So you appreciate that kind of beauty.” This woman asked the prince, he says, “Yes, that kind.” The prince replies with an effort. “Why?” She asks. “In that face, there is much suffering,” he says, as though involuntarily, as though he is talking to himself. “Beauty like that is strength.” One of the other women in the room declares, “One could turn the world upside down with beauty like that.”Aaron 38:20I think for me, I'd say elaborate on that. what I wanted to talk about, you said strength, but for me, it was courage, watching the different kinds of courage that made themselves felt and the film. I'm thinking of Dr. Ferrero, the physician who helps the ailing mother, he helps wounded soldiers on both sides. He doesn't have a side other than the side of life; life prevailing, life being protected. And watching him watching Mercedes, watching Ophelia, this watching these people in the most, these awful circumstances, have courage. Its both inexplicable it's deeply moral, it's, but it's one of the most real things in the film, and it's moving to me, and it's inspiring to me, and its Hirudotherapy.Banks 39:26At least in movie form. When I think of the medicinal quality of this movie it is the love of story of narrative. It's the fact that if you want to tell a story, you can put any two things your imagination wants together, and there's a way to tell that story in a way that will captivate and move. All you have to do is see a path between the two. And somehow in Guillermo Del Toro's mind--which I have want to be able to think like in half don't want, I don't know--he saw a way to narrate the sort of fantasy world, right? That would make JK Rowling envious, and combine that with the brutality of the Spanish Civil War, and he charted a path right through the both of them. And it worked.Aaron 40:27I'm coming back to that. Coming back to the idea of courage. I think that one of the things that Ophelia embodies in the heart of this film is that she decides to value and treasure stories. Against all odds and against constant contradiction from the adults around her are saying, “Get out of your fairytale books stop fleeing into fantasy, stop imagining.” And you're right, like, her resistance is an act of courage and it's, it's enshrining the value of story at the heart of the film.Evan 41:02How many leeches do we give this film?Aaron 41:06How many leeches?Banks 41:09One is the lowest four is the highest, if I'm not mistaken?Aaron 41:12Specifically because four leeches would take your life. Just kidding. That's not actually true. I'll tell you how many leeches it would take to take a life on a future segment. Keep listening.Evan 41:26It's a four point scale still, I know Aaron wanted to cut a leech in half and call that five leeches. Yeah, four leeches. I think is still the criteriaBanks 41:39I'm going to give it fourAaron 41:11Say more, say more.Banks 41:42When I think of movies that, you know, is that, as Evan said in the intro, the movies that you watch that stick with you, then you watch them again and they floor ya. That's what happened when I watched this movie again with you guys. And it's not because I didn't know this movie. Well, I think I'd seen it multiple times, it just had been five or 10 years. And it did for me. And it stuck with me ever since it stuck with me before then. It ain't pleasant. I think it's utterly medicinal. And here's the thing the medicinal part about it has changed for me. As I've grown, as I've moved into mental health, this movie has opened up new layers. And maybe I'm biased because I got this mental health side that I'm really focused in on and this movie clearly has a huge psychological element. But it speaks to me, I'm going to give it four leeches, and I don't care who knows it,Aaron 42:42Damn? Evan 42:43Bolt, I love it.Aaron 42:44I was gonna say I mean, come back to the idea of fatherhood. Let me also come back to the idea of people walking into swamps in shorts and flip flops. Oftentimes, when leech hunters would go into the swamps, and actually oftentimes collecting leeches on their own body for medicinal purposes that they could then take off put into a basket, give to a medical practitioner, they would have to wait at least, oftentimes 20 minutes, like leave a leech on for that long because it's so much easier to take a leech off. Once it's already full it lets go easier. And for me, this movie just kept taking it, I'm giving it three leeches because it for me, as a father watching the end in this film, it took too much. It took too much. And that's why I'm gonna give it three.Evan 43:48So I think I was in a slightly different position, because it's just the first time I saw it. And I'll admit it, I was speechless at the end of it. And yet, I had, I felt it was hard connect for me in certain ways. And yet, as time has gone on, since we've watched it, and I think especially through this conversation, I'm at three leeches as well. I was, I was at two for a little while, just because I felt like I didn't connect to it for some reason. But the more I sat with it, and kind of like what you were saying thanks about story and about the power of narrative and art to work through or work into trauma and pain. I do think this film is profound for that. So I'm a three leecher for this one.Banks 44:39These are high marks. I think that is a, we are holding out at a 3.25/4.Evan 44:49All right. Well that. That brings us to the end of another episode of The leech. Thanks to all our listeners, for tuning in. We would love to hear what you thought about this episode. Again. You can find us on Twitter @LeechPodcast and on Instagram at theLeechPodcast, please. Yes, suggestions, ideas. If there are leechy scenes that we missed, please send us clips, send us summaries, send us videos of you reenacting them! We want to see it all.Aaron 45:23Not all of us are going to watch that.45:29Please keep them appropriate. Please, yeah, talk to us. Tell us what you think about the pod. And we would love to hear from you. Thanks for tuning in. On behalf of Banks and Aaron, I'm Evan Cate. This is the Leech Podcast.

 Ep. 40- Writing a Resume That Gets You the Interview (Live Coaching) Lindsay  00:00I'm Lindsay Mustain, and this is the career design podcast made for driven ambitious square pegs and round holes type professionals who see things differently and challenge the status quo. We obliterate obstacles and unlock hidden pathways to overcome and succeed where others have not stagnation feels like death. And we are unwilling to compromise our integrity and settle for being average in any way. We are the backbone of any successful business and those who overlook our potential are doomed to a slow demise. We do work that truly matters aligns with our purpose, and in turn, we make our lasting mark on the world. We are the dreamers, doers, legends and visionaries who are called to make our most meaningful contribution and love what we do.  Lindsay  00:42If you're tuning in now for me go ahead and hit hashtag live. If you're catching me on the replay, go ahead and do hashtag replay that lets me keep track of who is having a conversation. So today, we're talking about what the stage that we are walking through. This is Abby Mueller, by the way, and she's amazing and wonderful, you should go follow her if you haven't already. We are doing the intentional career designing a pathway of how do we actually land our next opportunity as the position or the candidate of choice. And so last week, we covered clear clarity and clear clarity was all about where we want to go. We're really talking about our value proposition. The week before that, we talked about our mindset, which is the biggest thing I have to address with people because at this point, they feel like they've been beat down. It's like that whack a mole game, like whack a mole. How bad can we beat somebody down this process? So the top tracks that we have, and how do we increase our awareness about what we're doing and how we're almost on. Unconsciously sabotaging ourselves is probably the easiest way to describe that. And now we're talking about the resume. And so here's the deal, your resume is the ticket to the job search game, at the very highest level. And I have had I think four clients graduating this last? Oh, no, I had two job offers yesterday. So five clients graduated last two weeks. And what what if you do this the very, very highest level, you do not need to give your resume, however, you will give it to them at some point. And you want to make sure that that conversation that they've already had about you in their mind, they've already made a decision about you that it submits that that's all we're trying to get with your your resume. So I want to ask a poll to the question of the audience. Let me try that. Again. We're going to do a little quick poll here. How many seconds? Does somebody spend looking at your resume? And I think you already know obviously don't tell them? So how many seconds? Do you think that somebody has spent looking at your resume? Okay. And this is where people will be like, I spent 40 hours writing my resume. And Abby, how many of you think that you? Abby  02:48How many, how many hours did I spend on line? Lindsay  02:51This version, but in total? Abby  02:53Oh my gosh. I mean, it's got to be like, I don't know, at least 10-15 hours, I guess I don't even know like, I have no idea at this point. I've gone back and revise it so many times, like, I'm going to try this one and that nothing happened. So I'll change a couple things, and I'll send it out again. And you know, sometimes I'll tweak it just for the job that I'm applying for. And like, hopefully this sounds right, you know, do I have the right keywords in there? Or does it sound like the job description or in all have like a list of skills and you know, like, results from each position and I just kind of like trade in and out to see which combo work. So yeah, I've gone back and done this a million times different formats, like all of the above?  Lindsay  03:40It is six seconds. All right. So how many of you feel like in six seconds that somebody can easily understand your entire life's experience and really glean every insight from your resume?  Abby  03:54No.  Lindsay  03:56So and for me, I'm going to be really transparent like I am here to tell you the truth. I'm sorry that it's going to suck sometimes I'm sorry that it's uncomfortable sometimes. But I spent about three seconds looking and I'm not really looking at your second page, I am really looking for a few key areas, which has been proven through they do heat map tracking on resumes to see what people are looking at. So when hiring managers are looking when recruiters are looking when we're looking at or the whoever's interviewing you, they're looking at sort of specific things. So I'm going to ask you another question. When do you think somebody is actually going to read your resume in full?  Maybe never, but..  She's right, I even if you were writing here, I'm going to do it here right now. I'm going to show you I'm not writing her resume whatsoever. I'm not gonna read a resume even though we are going to so we do not read your resume. The person who is super invested in your resume is you. And so this is where I need you to say this is a piece of paper and this does not define me my work or my candidacy. Yeah, resume is Your ticket to the job search game, if you do not have it optimized, you're basically losing. You're basically losing the game, before you've even started. So like, you need to have this, this decision. So we have the pre frame, which is what we were talking about last week, the pre frame is a decision that happens before you've ever had a chance to really do anything that proves that decision. But we make this because we are biological beings built on tribal knowledge. That's how we survive for millennia, we make decisions on how somebody looks or appears automatically. Now I asked today I said, How many people think that you adding to like, open to work? Or that open to work profile frame? does it increase the candidate See, or does it decrease? And somebody said, and their recruiting consultant, and I want to say I appreciate the sentiment, but they're totally wrong. That, that we should not have any predispositions. And that's like saying, well, you should also not breathe, because we are human. And we have bias. There's over 150 human biases. I also have other biases, like people named Ian, there was a really mean kid in my class named Ian. And so therefore, he is make me a little concerned that does Ian have a fair shot with me? No, but knew I know that about myself. Yes, so I'm going to give him a fair shot. So there's a lot of programming that happens. And it comes from our own life experience. So what I'm telling you is that this is actually a good thing. This is a good thing. Here's why. If you understand what's wrong, we can hack it. Okay. So when we understand something's wrong, that's going to hack it in what you guys are doing is what we call the ad in, especially when we are doing things like marketing, or any kind of technology, we test things, right, we test what delivers and what works. And so everything in your resume is a test in essence, I'm going to give you the parameters here of how to optimize your resume to pass the six second test or if you're in my case, three second test. Okay. So let's, let's go a little bit deeper into this, on average, the amount of applications that we get for a single job right now is 250. Let me say that was pre, pre this recession. I know it's probably much higher, if I'm really honest. And so if you think about the number of candidates that somebody is working with, which is an individual Cruz working with 1000s of candidates, the likelihood they're going to spend time to evaluate your candidacy is slim to none. And so that's okay. You just need to know how to get your foot in the door. The other opportunity, okay. All right. So, Abby, what I'm gonna ask you, yeah, based on so you had I think, what did you say? I, this was insanely difficult. insanely difficult, despite all the time that I spent crafting and iterating on the existing version. And I'm going to go to what Daniel said is that one technical recruiter says, when you tell better stories, another recruiter says, you need those. So there is differentiating. So I'm going to tell you what wins because I wrote the book, folks, I wrote the book, I've reviewed over a million resumes, I have the research, I have the data, we proven it out 15,000 people, there's nobody who can say those same stats, okay, so that's in this space. It's why I am very, very good at what I do. So I'm sorry, that it's uncomfortable for you. But I also love you and I want you to be successful. So I'm just going to tell you the truth. I hope you don't mind. Okay. So talk  Abby  08:12Like you said, because honestly, like, I also hate writing resume, I hate it. So it's been a struggle for me. Lindsay  08:24Yeah, I was telling her I was like, I'm still gonna have to force you to do this. Because if you're going to show up here with me, if you guys will, she has this force yet, but she will sit on this. And it's like, I just want you to get this through. Because this is where you think like, if I have this now I have the perfect resume. It will all work and it doesn't Okay, so it is one of like, of the tools I'm going to give you is the least important. C heck it let me just say that again. Of all the tools and I wrote the book on it. So you would think I'm really invested in resumes I do it because you think it's the answer. And I'm telling you it's not. Abby  08:58Oh, no, I'm like, so relieved. That's not it Lindsay  09:04It is not it but it also like So tell me about went from career clarity to this week. Just talk me through that experience. Abby  09:14I feel like I like I'm relieved at all the things that you're saying because I think I've said this before, it's just like, you know, what I'm trying is not working. So like, it is logical to me and it makes sense that that's not the answer now, and I feel like even what you're saying like open to work, sending out resumes applying like it's not working. And now I feel like my my brain is doing this shift between Okay, like I have to have this, but don't get hung up on it, right? Like this resume is taking me forever, but I'm only gonna I know that I'm only going to have to do it one time, but like once I figure out how to do it, then I'm good. Like I'm good here and I can focus on other things that are more important and also I have stopped applying for jobs. So I'm not begging for work because I want I want someone to come enticed me with a good job like I my brain is taking this shift from like, why am I desperate and begging versus like Why don't you have something worth my time Lindsay  10:22Massive reprogramming if this is exactly what I'm going to if you guys are also if you're tuning in I'd love to know where you're joining me from So Mike, Danny I can't remember where you're at from Daniel Raymond is in the car. So he's got.. In Washington oh my gosh, he's here in Washington driving to Portland. That's right. Seattle, but I keep forgetting um, yeah, okay, so I'm so glad you're tuning in for this all right. So we what was obvious doing is probably sounds like madness. Crazy. Yeah, so we're, you know what? There's somebody says they're from Chicago Daniels from Ohio. Abby  11:01That's right. I should have known that I grew up in Ohio. We talked about this. Lindsay  11:05Like when you there's a lot of people, sometimes you get it confused. Yeah. No. So I'm glad you guys are tuning in here. Okay, so what I'm trying to get you to do is realize that you can play the game of applying and hoping back for it. And in fact, Jessica's hear from... Abby  11:20Jessica Me too. Lindsay  11:24So we can play that game, but the likelihood I'm just going to tell you the stat is point 4% chance that you're going to get a job offer from an application. Here's the numbers, one job 250 applications one higher point 4% Okay, so I like to say you're more likely to apply and get in to Harvard than you are to actually even get an interview from your resume. Okay, so that is my my real big thing. Okay, so I'm going to ask somebody who is gonna ask somebody who's going to be an amazing human being for me here because I've decided to also tell you what the heck goes wrong inside of job searching. We're actually gonna do a training next week next Thursday, which is dream job hack I'm going to teach you the three step system to get jobs without applying I'm gonna show you exactly what to do. I'm gonna give you the entire rulebook I'm gonna give you a workbook it's totally free. Alright, and Melissa is here from Washington Hey, so go to dream job hack dot com And so we can type that out. And that workshop is on the September 16 Okay, but let's jump into the resume so I'm breaking down beliefs around this So Daniel saying I too have stopped applying for a job I'm we're creating this revolution Okay, and what we're trying to do is increase the caliber of your candidacy Okay, so we've talked about the commodity space meaning I am just like everyone else and I'm hoping and praying that someone is like the claw machine. That's what I'm getting the image hopefully, you know, like the little aliens and Toy Story they're like Like the offer or even the resume and we're like, please pick me like let's get away from that. Oh my goodness. Raven says I'm smiling very big Abigail, so Milena watch the process with a wonderful and create oz. That's amazing that you said that about you. So okay, so let's go into the resume and like, I'm gonna I also have dark mode on my screen so we're gonna just know that um, that might be uncomfortable for some of you that you're used to seeing word and white. I was thinking that might be a challenge. So we're gonna do it right here and I'm going to critique her right now live so I'm a little Be brave and just know that everything I do is with love with the goal of helping you get to your end goal. Okay. Oh, whoa, that is the biggest truth bomb I've ever heard from a candidate. Somebody who's listening. Hitting apply gives you a false sense of being productive. Yes. It's like I saw this like he was like, when I'm sitting on the stationary bike and I'm not pedaling at the gym and people are like, what are you doing? You're like I'm on a downhill like it's it looks like you're being productive but it's not okay. So we're going to go a little bit deeper into this. Abby  14:03I want to share something while you're looking that up I had someone else contact me after one of our calls. I have a lot of people coming up and like I'm sure it's the same with you like we're getting some responses which is really cool like just to see everyone resonate, but another like bomb someone dropped on me was that leadership doesn't require crutches. But I thought was really powerful. Like we were talking about just the all the different, like excuses that people put in the way of or you can have this but this or this requires, you know, special circumstances or whatever. So yeah, if you're a leader, you don't have to rely on a process or a certain stigma or whatever it is like that you're leaning on it's it's a it's an it's a kind of an attitude, right? It's a it's a frame of mind. It's who you are. It's the way that you act, how you speak. You know, the way that you put your together it's not it's not a thing that makes you a leader. It's, you know, you don't have to rely on anyone or anything to be that. Lindsay  15:07I love that. Yeah, we talked about being like a trailblazer in essence so that exactly the pain in the ass job sorry I shouldn't be swearing but maybe a job that recruiters have. Okay, so let me just tell you, I am a recruiter through and through I'm an HR person through and through. Now I actively want to completely I have zero, I'm apathy for traditional human resources, which is a risk mitigation process, protecting your people from actually being productive inside of your own. Okay, that's actually what happens, okay. And the government has requirements to help you avoid discrimination that actually creates additional barriers for people to have success. Okay. We call those undocumented features Abby  15:47I know right, that's, I love it. Lindsay  15:50I'm going to walk you through your resume. There are some key features and I'm just gonna walk you through it. So the first thing and I write I wrote this in my best selling book, seven critical resume mistakes to avoid. The very first thing that you need to have is the basic information now Abby, you have it wrong. And you already know that you told me that this is I'm going to tell you about what what it is. She has the basics. So she has the resume template that we use. And I'm going to tell you resume templates are not created equal. Okay. Your resume does not need to be colorful, so color. Deepa, you could put it all in one little word together, I think, like a URL. Yeah. I was like she I think she got it close. She's probably doing it on her phone. So thank you so much for being here. No spaces. Yeah. And what on your resume has one goal to pass that six seconds and get you in the yes file. Okay. It's to submit the authority that we want to have and make them have an automatic Yes, that's all we're trying to get you? Or even a maybe, but just anything other than a no. Okay. Yeah. All right. So the very first thing you need to have is your header and you need to have your your name and go by like, Is your name actually Abby? Or does it Abigail? Yeah, you go by what your name is, though, it really is actually, you know, I don't know why. But let's see Ray. And it's Raymond to go by, what's your name that you want to be called. So I'll give you an example. I went by Lizzie Jo for a long time because I put my middle name on my resume because there were some out there that will tell you go by what you want to be called. So you don't get called your first a middle name. Okay. Next, you want to have your city, state and zip. All right. Go to dream job hack dot com and you can get signed up, I'm going to go through like if you want some actual I'm going to break down biases for him to break down. How you actually can get a job in five days without applying I'm going to show you the six step system to reveal the hidden and unpublished job market I'm going to show you where 80% of hires actually get hired without having to apply I'm gonna show you all of that and I'm gonna give you a ton of free resources. It is the best training that I have. And I haven't done this one since June. It Do you do not want to miss it. Okay, so I've only got 150 seats. Last time I looked at I've already had 50 taken so it's pretty crazy. There are location biases. Alright. So many locations. I know Okay, we're gonna cover some of these. I'm save these for the end, color, no color. What was it? And location bias. I'm gonna talk about this at the very end, okay. All right. So we want to have city state zip, here's why we want when we are doing, when I trade recruiting teams how to go find the highest caliber candidates, aka the purple squirrels, we use radius searching. So if you're going to end up in the, in the you will eventually if you apply, you're going to end up in this in their system, right? Like, if we find something qualified will come find you. Sometimes they do that, the only way you can do it is to actually get it right. So you wanna make sure you have your zip code in there. It also allows us to job search. Okay. All right, he just doesn't help me too much. So give me some question with, like, how do you combat it? Or is the reaches of what his ages? Just give you? context? Okay. Abby  18:45I have a question about the since we're talking about location. Yeah. And it's, I think this is relevant. And it's certainly as for me, I'm looking for remote work. So how is that it has, I guess? Do we know has it changed? And you know, I don't mind putting my location on there. But I'm not restricted to that area. Lindsay  19:01Yeah. So we like people will use we can put sometimes available for relocation, or virtual work available. But I want you to think right now that on the so when people ask me, like, how do I get virtual work? Or how do I there there are like three things that pretty much that I say we're gonna make it longer for you to do that. remote work is not one of them. If you want a C suite job, if you want to relocate internationally, or if you have a visa, those are the ones that are might not will take you six months or greater if you follow my process, but otherwise, everything right now, I would assume the default is remote, you know, okay. Assume that the employer of choice for you is going to be remote because that's what you want. And when you are the candidate of choice, do that. Have you ever had like a senior executive where they fly them in Monday through Friday to be in the office, they live in another city? Yeah, you need a choice. We will do whatever it takes. I know that that's hard to believe, but that means remote work is easily accessible option. Thank you COVID for becoming a game changer for us, okay, so don't worry about doing that. So your phone number you for sure need to have your phone number, which is a 206 number. Is it? You have a Seattle phone number. Oh, I was like how? Abby  20:16I that's how I know. That's how I know Raymond. I, my husband is from Washington, and I lived there for a couple years. And that's where I got my phone. Lindsay  20:26That's the other thing. There's another bias because I was like, Wait, what? And that was actually a bad thing. Okay, and why again, if I thought she was six, I'd be like, Oh, she's not from here. I'll talk to you about how to do location bias. Okay, okay. Abby, Miller, 411. The 401 makes me go What? But not enough where you have like, 89. And then I'd be like, there's your age, and all that crap in there. Okay. And Gmail, you actually in the tech space, you actually want to have a Gmail account? Yep. That's an actual bias. Okay. And then she has her portfolio. So what I want you to do is put LinkedIn and then hyperlink that and then why don't you put portfolio instead of your actual address? And then get both? So you've got that answer. Okay. Got it. Alright, so now we have your headline, user experience, designer, user experience designer. So I think I might have gotten twice, he says it on this one says twice, but that's where like, I catch it. But I will only catch my own, I only catch other people's errors, I can't catch my own. So I'm not a I'm not super detail oriented. That's not something I'm something you'll ever see on my resume. Okay, Abby  21:25I was trying a couple different variations. So I must have just like, copy, paste it and change it back. Well, I originally had like, a content writer, I think is what I had in there. And then I started doing like, instead of it being all writing, I was, I was trying really hard to figure out because we're covering my operations background and my design background. So I was trying to figure out how I could cover all three of those things. Which I was struggling with. So I ended up with like user experience designer, and then I had like, content architect or something like that, because information architecture is something that we deal with and design. And it had more Lindsay  22:04I like that, actually, cuz I'm like, Oh, that's interesting. And this is where I'm like, it doesn't need to be like, what I'm looking for is a baseline user experience. designer is a baseline for me to make sense. Like when I go and tell people like international career designer, it doesn't really what dream job coach usually communicates. So just something, something that makes it so they can frame it. Okay. So when I look at that, which you told me last week, I had before we did our thing, I have zero experience, but now we have passionate creative design and operational professional who transforms progress barriers, and I would go What does that mean? Because I don't know what that means, actually, into intelligence and efficient solutions. And I would say like, What does, like efficient would be like, what's the efficiency? Right? What is the outcome of the efficiency with proven results for businesses? Like what? You heard me say this, this right, good, agitating, right? And then you have such as Okay, for their husband to like, what is this good period? So like, what kind of proven results and when I think about that would be okay, reduction and expense. So like, proven cost reduction strategies. And let's see,  Abby  23:08What specific examples in this paragraph. Lindsay  23:10The very first one is just the opening paragraph, like like, anytime, when you write a pair of intent around like, a, let me try that, like a research paper, it's just painting the picture, what we're gonna experience, by the way, they're not going to read it. So we're just making it so that it makes sense for us when we tell it Okay, so I'm reading it now. But that Okay, so then, what I'm doing  Abby  23:30Here is my results that I listed after that, because I, you said put it all in there, I'm like, how do I?  Lindsay  23:35You've got it actually. So just put a period, okay, so achieved a 40% reduction in expense. And I would say 40% reduction expense totaling over $10 million a year. And then the building of the environment that launched it's I'm confused what that means. And so but an increased annual business revenue of $446.9 million. Massive Okay, and I would just go for 40 447. Don't forget, I love that you were that specific, though, because we went from zero to nothing like from nothing to that. Okay. All right. So if we add that for 370 new career positions, like is it a building an environment with like, helped create whatever it was that Abby  24:19Yeah, it was the I mean, it was this. We open new stores, we created new jobs by opening the stores and generating the revenue to support the payroll.  Lindsay  24:30Okay, that was launched new store operations, generating 375 new career positions in a single year, an increase annual business revenue. Like that's, that's massive, okay. And so now we have that so we have something that says I have more than 0% qualified, which is what we started with, okay. Now, this thing, when we were talking about testing, we're going to see when people get interested in when they talk about your resume when they interview you. That's where we'll make the tweaks. So make the tweaks like I think it could be this I think it could be that Don't you have any data to make it so we test through the data, okay? Now the other things that we had in here, so you have your skills, the skills is what I wanted you to use jobs hands. So if you haven't gone to job scan before, it's a really cool tool, and they will tell you how close you are now you I look for you to be in the 60s, I think you got 38%. So it wasn't great. It wasn't great, but what I'm looking for is what I really want. I'm gonna be honest here that they It was written by a developer, it's not and they seek out recruiter feedback. So I've been on side of the ocean. And so this is where I'm like, ah, just know it's not, it's not perfect. All we're trying to do is get past that first test. So what I'm looking for is education. section headings, yep. Okay, so we've got that workout, and it looks good. All right, hard skills down here. So the resume like brand, so didn't have anything about writing didn't have strategic directions. So you might have changed that for strategic management, I asked you to look about three different dream job descriptions to qualify, here's why. So when you are in an ETL system, there's two ways that we use this one FIFO. First, in first out tends to be how we process the recruiter workflow. The other way is that there are some that will keyword search against it, and they'll give you a gold star, or they'll rank you with a relevancy search, where you come in that either way is an acceptable way of vetting resumes, we will not look at all of them. Let me be really clear here, we will not look at all of them, which is why there are some rules for applying if you choose to apply, do you remember those? me to tell you, you remind me apply in the very first four? Yep, do not wait. Okay. Also if you can apply. So that's the first rule that Trumps all other rules. Okay, so first rule, and the first four days after that point, you're just at the very bottom of the pile is not likely to see the light of day. Okay, next is, if you choose to apply, you should always apply it with a networking strategy. That will be something we cover later on. But the next thing is you want apply early in the morning, why? First thing I want to do in the morning as a recruiter is go through the people who've applied and move on. And then I'm going to check and see which most of them are knows sorry. And then I'm gonna move on to actual sourcing people, which is what we're trying to get into is that sourcing side, okay, sourcing means I go out and find you. And then from there we're looking at Don't try to apply on the weekends, that tends to not be a very productive time. So we can see at the top of the inbox, and then the last one being combined it with a network strategy. So I don't think I put that in the right order. But that's really the thing the first four days, that's when you do it. So tell me in the chat again, when will you apply if you choose to apply and this is the only time where I'm like it's acceptable by me where you won't, I won't be like, well, you just wasted 30 minutes of your time. Okay. Yeah, what's the what's the rule? Okay, tell me in the chat. So for you, I want you to go look at these hard skills on the three different job descriptions and see what you've got that's close, or can be up level. And if you see strategic direction, remember people will lose like, client or customer or patient or whatever it like user advocate. I don't know what it could be that people use, whatever you're going to use it for create a single common denominator for this resume. It's a master resume and then you'll tweak it when someone asks you for it. Let me say that again. You will tweak it when someone asks for you. Not every time you're applying for a job because we don't use applying as our main strategy. Raymond, come back. I know it's dry though. It does have some bad connection. Somebody says first four days and in the am That's exactly right. Okay. All right. So I want you to go through and update them. Okay, so now professional experience office manager. Okay, so the first thing I'm looking at this user experience design a camera what the middle one was product, storyteller, all of that amazing. office manager. Okay, you've ended up in the no pile, Abby. So this is where we need to change the title. Now this is this is where I'm going to start to offend people. Okay. Okay. There are business titles, and there are compensation, compensation titles, okay. So business or business card titles are what you actually do. That comp comprises what you do at the highest level, let me give you an example. We have something called a customer account executive. Alright, we call them CA, CA, c 3247, whatever they are. All right. If I wrote a resume and I put my job title is ca for how many people are going to call me back? Probably no one? None? None. Okay. Now customer account executive is a very common job title. So maybe if you built that out, but if I said this is to business, a direct sales, SMB market, that would be a very different job title that would be accurate. So I don't want you to lie. But office manager is not what you did. You had some of those responsibilities. So what I want you to do is I want you to evaluate the criteria of this. Now how you can go and look at this as go look at what other job titles would be. Cuz office manager what I think about that, and I'm just gonna say for shout out to our administrative shade of folks, because they are the grease on the wheels that make a business run. However, they are seen as the lowest value inside of their professional cups with this the equivalent of like, say, like a stay at home mom, that's not real job. Whoever said that line, same thing goes with our administrative professionals. Okay. So like you can be operations specialists. That can be it. Like facilities management, also, I think was part of your role. Yeah. Yeah. And so like you did some operational alignment. So I want you to think like, you did compliance you did, you know, safety. I want you to think about what this would be at the highest level if you didn't choose what the actual job title that the company gives you. Okay, so there's compensation titles, we don't care about your marketability. Now, let me tell you why this is okay. When I post a CIA three job, what the hell do you think I'm actually posting it as? Not ca three? mall business to sales strategist? Okay, whatever the market is creating, okay, which is why job titles change, like, you could be a director at one job, you could be an SVP at a different job. They're the same job, in essence, so don't get caught on this. Okay. All right. Your scope is so much more than that. Yes. And that's where like, if it truly was, like, I just answered the phone, and I organized live in and those that's not that those things aren't valuable. But that's what I think. And does that make me think that you're qualified, and that's where we have that bias come in. So that's the first thing. Now I took off that and I actually looked at this other piece, I mean, really excited about that, like, I'd be excited about the work that you've done. Now I want to look at inside of here, like provided a safe work environment. What I want to see here is the lens of the of the user experience designer, how did you change user experience or even internal experience for this role? If I can do that, that's what I want to see. And which was operational efficiency is probably going to be your big thing, because operational efficiency and designing that is the way that there's continuity. So what we're trying to do is make sure we don't get kicked out because somebody didn't understand the continuity in our message. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. This is where you're in kind of hate me a little bit. And I feel like I'm interrogating you. Okay. No, it was good. But this is really good. So what I'm telling you coming here with this, this is rarely what I see. Okay. I think that like, if you have your resume in front of you as as product testing, and validation, I think there's an extra space in there. Yeah, think of your office as a user experience. That is so good. That is so good. Daniel, thank you. Okay, now, we are really good at doing this for other people, which is why you need to have a peer. So if you have somebody maybe Daniels your person to look at it and say, How do I take this and I reframe it at the highest level? So somebody asked me once, what is the if you did it without any judgment or any pre carry at all what anybody else thinks? What is it that you actually do? Or what would you call yourself, I said, I would call myself the Antichrist of human resources. And so, inside of my other programs, you will find that that is exactly what I am doing. I am trying to, like pretty much implode traditional human resources because I am, I am here to tell you all their secrets, which is why Amazon really hated me at the end. I'm here to tell you exactly how to use it to work to your behavior and how to become an advocate for yourself. Which is why in my clients, I only accept people that do good. If you're kind of a jerk. And if your bloody toes toes up on the way on the ladder, you are not my person, you should not be on this live stream. You should not be tuning in and you will get booted for my programs because I only work with people who are here as far as the highest level of integrity. Okay. So that's what I would say I want you to take that same idea without any judgement of yourself. What is it? You would truly say you did? Okay. Deepa, says yes, Lizzie. Okay. All right, planner. Okay. So planner is probably what the title was. So, Abby  33:49actually floor planner, but I took Flora there because most Lindsay  33:53companies don't call it that. Yeah. So what would we call that? Right? Which is it's probably um, what do we call this a planet? Graham style, right? Like when we Yeah, same thing. What? Was that not optimized for users? Do we know? Yeah. It's not a design strategy. Abby  34:09It's a lot of like, yeah, brand assortment. It's creating the formats for Lindsay  34:15user design. Planning, that would be something and it or canned or client or customer design. It's actually what's happening Okay, so that would be the way to do it, you're gonna need to really think about the office one, but that when I was thinking it would stick with that and then we'll keep iterating on it. Now here inside of it, your name first last. uploaded that to that, okay. And then mine on my site, which is why we always make things into a PDF. It's overlapping your, your experience onto the second page, okay, so like, I want your planner to be on one single piece design master. I love it. Our customers, our users. Exactly. So this is where like, remember, we're just trying to get past that six seconds. Like, look at this, we're not gonna read it. So that would be Yeah, so like brand image, right? So okay. I don't know, I'm adding some stuff in there. So think about it. Okay. And we'll keep going from there. Okay, but really, really good from your experience. So what I'm looking here to also is showing impact and scope, impact in scope and so 2000 and I want you to not use round numbers, like you said, 12,006 or 1264. Starfleet. Abby  35:22I felt like it was more believable if it was an actual number. And not just like, I'm throwing a whole number out there like Lindsay  35:27no, don't this exactly, it. That's the bias. So go ahead and say like, 1997. Okay, we're at vs 2000. Like, rarely do we have 2000 Abby  35:38people? Okay. It was like, Yeah, like, it was like 1987. It was like, almost, maybe maybe a little more than that after I was done. But anyway, yeah. So So I'm Lindsay  35:46looking at these numbers. And I'm like, I want you to have at least two metrics. Your billion that's on the first one, add $1 sign in front, that dollar signs, bullet points. And numbers, stop people's eyes. There's always a little, it's a second bullet point on office manager. Abby  36:05Oh, yep. Thank you Lindsay  36:07for that. And because what do you say? So Abby can quote billions and millions of dollars in impact that she has had. I think that she went sold that like she did not sell a billion dollars of lipstick, which he didn't see enabled people to be able to sell it. which counts, okay, the CEO doesn't say I sold 10,000 tubes of lipstick. They say, enable this to happen. Okay. So that's the strategic mindset. And it's hard because we like to be like, Well, I was, you can just put him all that in an interview, and I'll teach you how to do that. We're going to do that. Actually, Abby  36:36that was a challenge. Like, I was like, Can I really claim this like, Lindsay  36:41and all you do is like I was a part of it. You are? Okay. Yes, exactly. Okay. All right. So your plan or your experience looks really good. Okay. stores that measure, okay. Like store expansion project would be sort of set manager would probably be how I would do that. That would be a way to increase it. Okay. And I would say lead teams have led it I would say lead a team of 31 through that, and occluding over 100 annual new store openings, remodels. And I would like change that remodeled to be a design idea. Okay. Yeah. Oh, annual cost. Do you see how good this is? Okay. And then when you want to use million US two M's billion will be a capital B, okay. Okay, now I want you to put for the so Abby, you have a degree that's in progress, right? So and it doesn't matter where you're on progress. Just gonna say it doesn't matter where you're at. If it's been a couple years, I don't care. It's still in progress. I want you to put that actual degree program is and then you can put degree coursework in progress in parentheses or not parentheses, but in metalex, underneath Ashland, Ohio, okay. So like Bachelors of whatever it is, okay? Yep. Okay, and now we're not we're not telling a non truth. Okay. All right. You are allowed to pay yourself pat yourself on the back for doing well. Yes. Okay. And then technical skills. So the one thing here These look like a lot of design, so Ms. Office is good. I want you to actually add Ms. Like let's maybe boot this up by adding another line we can do Ms. I don't know if you've done project but it kind of project software. I would like to see Excel Excel seems to be the one and have you done anything with? Oh my gosh, Tableau have a Abby  38:18ton of Excel skills. I used it every day. Now. As a planner. Yes, I would like pivot tables and huge matrices, like, okay, like, yeah, I Lindsay  38:31think you need to brag a little bit on here. So I want you to go like pivot tables, put that as a single thing v lookups. Put that a single thing and display Ms. Excel and let's add a third line on there. Okay. Now the other thing I want to do is I want us to add another line, that professional experience we're going to add the second page says professional experience continued. And then that will balance the first and second page we want the pages to be well used. This is real estate for you. They're going to look at a couple things really on their second grade, second grade second page, which is just validate, okay, qualify and or has experience has education. And that's it. Okay, so, this you are probably if you spend an hour, I'm giving you a lot of time there. It's been an hour, this will be done. Okay, this will be done. Yeah. How do you fail? You think about what this sounds like? The cheat I don't know what it was before because I don't really care. Abby  39:18What is it like this? Yeah, it was it was I had like, a couple of bullets. I definitely and you know, being in design, like I bolded the first part of my sentence so that it would like, give him something to look at. Like, I didn't write in full sentences. It was like, brief. One line. Like, Lindsay  39:38it's not too bad. There's it because really the thing is like, just like everybody will be a little bit different. So what do people read, okay, I'm just like what they read, they read your name, I don't actually read names. I'm going to tell you what I do. I quickly how resumes are read isn't a z format. They go across the top, down to your experience across your experience. And then on the second page, do the same thing. So Really what we're looking at is your summary your headline and your summary. A quick glance at your skills and your experience second page maybe a little bit of experience in education that's it that's why it only takes me three seconds. So I'm looking okay do you have this? Do you have 12 years of experience because that's what the job description requires which by law for most of the things that we're recruiting for that in this kind of scope, I need to make sure it's fair and equitable. So you have to have the minimum qualifications. And do I make that look like I'm qualified okay. And so now Yes, I'm qualified, easy done guest pile we can move forward. Okay. Now, when we are coming with some sort of disadvantage, welcome to job searching, unless you are paint with a wide brush here unless you are 35 year old white guy, you have a disadvantage in job searching. Okay, so that means everybody you're not going to have the right experience you're gonna have the right education, you're gonna have to have been laid off, you're too old, you're too young, you're too experienced, you're not experienced, everybody faces this. So this is where I'm gonna say we're all in the same boat. Let me help you. I'm trying to reduce the amount of bias when I talk about increasing velocity, reducing your own bias is what I'm trying to get you to do here. Okay, so that's what we're going through. So what I really want you to do is always think about up leveling and advocating for yourself because you're not there and this is not a good representation of who you are. Like this doesn't even come close, like maybe 2% of who you are, is this clarity would know this about you. But what I do know about you is that I believe that you could do anything if given the right opportunity and the right training environment like you don't need to have had the experience I'll buy enthusiasm before I'll buy qualifications every day of the week. Let me say that again for the people in the back I will buy enthusiasm over qualifications every day of the week, and the right people will see that for you. So what we're trying to do is just get past that first measure that first hurdle which is do I look qualified in that three to six seconds Okay, so when you do that and we change to make the changes that we have here how confident Do you feel like now I look about 1000 times more qualified than I did when I Abby  41:54started Yeah, um, yeah, my other resume like like I I told you before like I was like I don't have metrics to show right that was my biggest struggle like I don't I don't know like I know that the company did well but I don't know what my impact was and you know when you gave me that example last week, you're like, you know, ultimate this and like pull that I'm like, oh, like just like Lindsay  42:17tell you that the amount of people things I don't know how many metrics you have in here but there's 123 Abby  42:22quite a few I tried to have something in everything you know Lindsay  42:2715 on the first page Okay, I'm looking for two under each job at a minimum because like bear but when I look at the rate all I'm doing here is I go Wow, she's qualified I just like she looks well qualified. I don't because I'm not even looking at going okay, streamline store experience actually does a pretty good that sounds pretty good. That's why I landed on and I'm like, yeah, that's the thing we don't know what the little blurbs are gonna land on so we're just trying to eliminate it and uplevel at all okay, so what I'm going to do is just teach you I teach teams how to hire the best people all I'm gonna get you to is the yes so you become the advocate for yourself Okay, all right. Okay, Abby  43:07for those of you out there who are doing this to just know that it's tough for me reading this even knowing that these results are real I didn't make anything up these really happened I read it and I'm like still feeling like it like over like a little over estimating my ability like feels feels weird to like look at that and think that Lindsay  43:29we've been conditioned to be humble dim our light to fit into a box there is no box you get to create the box here and so do you see why like mindset is the first one we have to do is break the beliefs that you have around the process and then I have to prove you that it works okay, so we'll keep going through this because this Yeah, I have no question but I'm gonna say that you I am so glad that somehow we got matched in the universe came to us this way because somebody does this work this is where people drop off so like if you're following along Abby's process it's only gonna get harder from here okay, but this is she's gonna see if you can do what she said I have this is Abby  44:08I know this has got to be the hardest part for me I promise if it's anything that's not like Lindsay  44:12writing a resume you might change your mind in networking for that yeah. Okay good. All right. So this is I want to so we would you do me a favor Would you be willing to put your resume up I want you to do the updates today put your resume up on your actual website and then I want you to go and would you be willing to show up before and after for your you can always ask me that I had before this one. Yeah, if you don't want to, you don't have to, but I'm thinking it would be really great for people to see and just do something really quick. Like here's the download, you don't have to do anything and then respond to the people who are commenting on this site. If you want to see her resume, the before and after the transformation. And you're going to this is where like your karma in the world by getting out there. Go ahead and put resume in the chat. Okay, and I might do something special for this. Most Software Development there isn't much metrics to go on but notice Daniel like and I must say it's gonna sound insulting so there's no idea what we're talking about office manager came up with 15 examples on our very first page. Okay, you have it you have it. Oh right. Abby  45:15Yeah Daniel, the companies you're developing for have results those are your results. So this Lindsay  45:22is where I'm gonna say you have two jobs in the company. Ooh, yes uh yeah. Okay, you guys want to see it? Yeah look at this now by the way Abby  45:31all right fine I'll put myself out there for your your benefit you guys Lindsay  45:36but the thing is like this is it's gonna be out there anyhow they find it and we're gonna have it but you're gonna see the change right from where she was to where she is and notice that I did not advocate for line that is in fact if you do that you for sure gonna either get fired or the universe can come back and bite you okay? So we don't lie we talk about it but you have two jobs in a company you either make money or you save money. What yes, even HR the most expensive department you know that because it's nothing nothing if I hire salespeople Guess what? I enabled an entire sales department Okay, if I reduce turnover by hiring the right people, I saved money. This is that you just have to think okay, if somebody hires me to do accounting, what do i do i mitigate risk or manage financial goals or achieve Sarbanes Oxley compliance. These are things that save money okay, and process optimization can be both so you just have to think about this. Cindy Svetlana by the way it's on resume is on LinkedIn and Facebook so yay okay. I'm so glad we get to say this so you're going to be you're we're here to show people that it's possible is the level okay so now we've taken a different lens we put it I take you in on like kind of shooting up put you on a different pedestal and a different level you're playing out before Okay, so all right yeah, Abby  46:51saying HR is expensive like traveling and growth and development and like Do you know how much it costs to open a new store or to remodel a corporate office like or to open a new one like we're spenders you guys like we spend the money Oh, okay, so this is a report well, but I still found ways that we save money like one thing I Lindsay  47:13see okay, and that's where like we have to say okay, I know how to optimize this because what you do is you're able to look at a process and you're able to see waste that's unnecessary, you're able to see what actually creates results and you're able to eliminate what's unnecessary and amplify what actually gets results. Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'm looking for you inside of your summary tick a few that gives you some clues of how to kind of change that a little bit but you're so close that what you have now as is I would just if I had to choose one thing I would just change your job title on that first one because that's that it would be enough for you to get the end up in the yes pile. This would be enough so when I'm talking talking about the pathway every single step from this point forward is enough for you to get an interview to get a job. But what I want you to do is even bigger, okay, okay. All right. So I'm going to answer some questions here on resumes. So go ahead and ask them and then I know we went through yours but let's and then I'll tell you about what to prepare for next week. And I think he did say he wants to see it. Stick by your powers Ruby says imposter syndrome. It's fine You are amazing. By the way imposters don't have imposter syndrome so if you if you have self doubt with me Abby  48:19if you're a rock star so lightbulb moment for me too when I read that like because it's so obvious when you say it but you know I would never have thought that Lindsay  48:28like the things that I've learned in my life and I try to give you it all pass if you notice I've taken everything and I've spent $150,000 on my own personal development so yeah that's that's I want to give you the access to this where you don't have to so that's why this in fact we're gonna package all this up and people be able to opt in and get all of the things that we did together so they can see the transformation of what can happen in this process because that's why I did this is I want people to know what's possible you just need to advocate for yourself and think be thankful the process is broken because you're going to see how why that works for you at the end when it hopefully I unemploy myself because I don't want to be doing this I want to process programs that we put inside for companies for you know the employees that they have to just be their own advocate for their own people but until then you still need to be your own advocate by the way even if that's the case, but until then I'm going to teach you how to do it this way Okay, yep Daniel is something I may consider let's let's say you keep showing up I feel like you I would be very inclined to look at it Abby  49:26offers resume services that's true I also Lindsay  49:30that's your what I do is actually with no cost because we keep the ones to keep the light on feed the families but the rest of it is here to help people okay. All right. So go ahead and go with questions here. So I'm going to go back to some of the ones that were the very beginning okay. So color no color. So let me just tell you when I and I'm going to this is how I would do it. I'm just walk you through what it's like for me. There How many of you have heard of decision fatigue? Abby  49:57Okay, yeah. Lindsay  49:58Have you ever gotten a lot said Just the other night to my family, I said, I don't care what you want to eat, just pick it because I can't choose. I'm at the point where I can no longer make a decision. Okay? There's a reason why Albert Einstein picked the same clothing. He eliminated decision fatigue is the reason why Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, they do these things to make decision making very simple for themselves, okay? So if a recruiter has to look at 250 resumes to go through everybody, and I was one of those recruiters, which is very rare, very, very rare. The width or all of them, like as long as it's to the point and I would usually wait and I come back and check, but I usually go through all of them. Yep. And when I get to the point where something doesn't make sense, or it's hard to see even if you're well qualified, what's the likelihood I'm going to put you in the yes pile? Abby  50:44pretty small. Lindsay  50:45It's not and I have a super important advocate. I so I would go above and beyond and I would take chances. It's actually what got me dinged a lot was I would take chances on people, it didn't look as qualified, because I knew the diamonds in the rough probably don't have the best resumes. And the people who have the best resumes were always the best qualified. Now I want to do you have you do both, like, in this way, but I would take a chance so I'd have all the Yes. And maybe pat on people have just Yes, it knows. But at the point at the very end of your resume 249. And you have a bunch of color and a bunch of diagrams, and I can't find the damn information on your resume. What's the likelihood I'm gonna put you in the yes pile? Okay. When I say is less is more like the resume. When people are like use the Canva template. I'm like, please, no, unless you are an actor, or real estate agent or a model, please stay away from that whoever designed that was a great, beautiful designer. The people who build who also love to give resume writing advice have never actually hired anybody. They took a damn class, I'm telling you hire 10,343 people, by the way, that there's a reason why I say that number, because it's very specific, you should do the same thing on your resume. Okay. I also say I've hired or helped over 15,000 people, but if I told it was like 16,747, it'd be way more powerful. So there's a reason why I do the same things that I teach you guys in my own business. But when you're going through this, you want to make it so somebody see that in three seconds, can they glean the information. So when I see a resume if you people who if she's still here, she'll tell you what I go into my I have a coaching program where we meet every week, and I critique resumes and LinkedIn and elevator pitches as part of the program. And I go in and if you look beyond, I make you do this first before we come in, but from the very beginning, I'd like to pull some basil resume up and I go, because like that is really a visual assault on my senses. I'm like, make it easy, just make it easy. And so I'm like, just make it easy. That's all you're trying to do. So when you add color, it's not it's not actually helping you stand out for the right reason what makes you stand out is when you have results and impact so format is the most important thing on your resume have the stuff in the right order. You need to have a header well you need to have your first critical information you need to have a header you need to have a summary you need to have skills you need to have your experience you need to have your education and you shouldn't have technical skills at the bottom if you're using any kind of software which if you don't I am shocked and you probably need to reevaluate whether or not that's true okay. But if you do that then I can understand Okay, so when I say color like use sparingly Navy is about the people who The only exception I've had that is when somebody has a portfolio which is not a resume Abby  53:17oh good I was gonna say mine's not me. Yeah, Lindsay  53:21well your resume is fine right? Abby  53:24Well my resume has a little bit of like I have this like dark but I don't really want to call it like a deep blue like turquoise kind of color on my red on my portfolio. So like that's like it's not all over it, but there are elements of it in my resume, a hyperlink and that sort of thing. And like yeah, it's a small line under my name. Yeah. But when people have like these like I will you give yourself a Venn diagram or when they rate themselves on their proficiency unless you were at the top proficiency I don't know why you would write yourself first off Lindsay  53:53like I was going to Abby  53:54ask you about that I'm like how what is this based on like my personal opinion of Lindsay  53:59Did you take this now this is super subjective. So so that's the first one. Let's see what else was the second question? Color no color. Um, how do you Okay, I'm going to talk about race. ageism. ageism. Okay, let me give you the really big ones. If you have over 20 years of experience, ageism. If you put your years since you're graduated, whether it's young or old, unless it's in the last two years, obviously, I didn't say anything about yours. ageism, okay. So don't volunteer information that can get you deemed okay. And take a very flattering photo. That would be the other thing, okay. So like, I don't really want to be able to, we're gonna make a decision based on your profile photo, but you're more likely to have we'll talk about this next time and the LinkedIn leverage will have more success on what a LinkedIn profile is with a photo versus not okay. All right. Let's see here. Thank you for taking a chance. Yes, hyperlinks. It's amazing hyperlinks. I'm not sure what hyperlinks is. Okay. I thought there was another question. I want us to cover. I'd like black, and maybe something that's muted, it would be like, I had one oh my god, the reason I come back I think in this resume I had, and it was literally like red and blue. And some of them it was italicized, and nothing was aligned one way or the other. And I'm like, I mean, it was like somebody vomited on this page. That's what it was the equivalent of it was so very hard. So just the big part here is, is it attractive? And the best way to do that is to find somebody who was a recruiter and ask them. Abby  55:30Okay, Lindsay  55:31so we are we're going to go into your profile next time, this is where you get to actually pick out some of your stuff. Okay, so go ahead and ask questions here. Okay, so what do you have anything for you? Abby, do you have any questions? Abby  55:43You Where do you want, you want to put some links in LinkedIn or on my portfolio, Lindsay  55:47I actually want you to do it on your, your portfolio site for now. And then we're going to add it to your LinkedIn next week. Okay, but after, after you make the changes and send it to me, okay? You want but the before and after, before and after I want you to do it on your portfolio site, I really don't want you to have to leave it out there. Abby  56:04I can create a page for it that's only accessible Lindsay  56:07by link. So Okay, perfect. That would be it and then just put it if you'd comment back to these folks here, so Okay. All right. So let's talk about what's next. Okay, so I've told you that your resume means not a quiz, you need it. Okay, you need it. And it has one choice, I'm just gonna say it, I'm going to swear for you guys. It's to believe that you are a badass. So Abby, we went from I have zero experience and qualifications. Are you at the point where you see, okay, I feel like that is yes. Your piece of marketing material for you, this is the marketing material for you as a person, that's all it is. Okay. So everything we're going to do is just to back us up for that. Now, next stage is LinkedIn, if I told you what was the most important tool, it's that one, LinkedIn is the most important tool, okay, which is guess what the best part here is, if we optimize for your resume, we just get to transfer it over which is which next stage really easy. However, there's a couple of key areas I'm going to talk about the five most important areas and LinkedIn, we're going to cover those next week. The first one is your profile photo. Okay, so I'm going to show you how to assess whether your profile photo really works or doesn't, okay, is going to be your headline. Okay, so your headline, that's where we that's the headline that's on your on your resume. But you've already done this work a little bit. So we're going to add just a little bit of tweak there. And then your cover photo. And this is where I want to see some of that beautiful design work. And so because you have that, so I want to see something that summons you, I give you a template, I'm going to talk about what how to, what we're looking for is to pre frame so what I'm experiencing on your resume, and what are on your LinkedIn profile is should be submitted by the your image, your headline, your cover photo, and then your summary. Now your summary super easy, you're just going to take what's on your value proposition and plug it in there. We're going to add to it later on. But for now, that's what we're going to start with. And then you're gonna actually put your skills on there too, I would just put your skills with emojis. We'll talk about this next week. And I don't actually care about LinkedIn. But because you're a little more advanced user, I'm going to talk about that, okay, those skills that are we talked about optimizing with the job scam, that's what I'm looking for. Okay. And then the rest of it, there's 17 sections I have you optimize inside of my program, we're gonna start with the first the first five and then for you, I'm looking at education and experience and just transfer over what you have. And then we will take a look at how it appears. Okay, so your goal here, the one thing I want to have you do is did you measure your social selling index yet? Have you done that? Okay, we're going to do it right now and I'm expecting you to have a pretty good score. social selling index is a Yeah, you're like was social? Abby  58:44How do you do that? Lindsay  58:45I'm gonna show I'm gonna give it to you right now. Okay, I'm here to help you with every every step along the way. Okay, so index LinkedIn, I have to grab it. Okay, so your social selling index measures how effectively you were actually building your brand on LinkedIn. Okay. And I love that you don't know what it is because that makes it easier for me. So I'm gonna I'm in learning all these new things. Do you have access to your phone right now? Yes, okay. I'm gonna arm Sorry. I'm gonna go send it to you on Facebook. Got it? Thank you get it to work. Let's see here. O

Ashleigh Hargrave  00:05Welcome to Mosaic, your Novant Health podcast for diversity, inclusion and equity. You'll learn more about the mosaic of similarities and differences that make us stronger, and how health equity benefits us all. Piece by piece, we're telling the stories of the beautiful mosaic of Novant Health. Becky Knight  00:24This is Becky Knight and I have the privilege of working with Novant Health BRGs. Business Resource Groups or BRG's play a critical role in our goal to embed diversity, inclusion and equity throughout the organization. BRGs are groups of team members gathered around a dimension of diversity. They're a forum for the exchange of ideas, experiences, and perspectives. BRGs help us better understand ourselves and each other, and they help us keep our Novant Health promise to relentlessly pursue remarkable care every day, so patients get the compassionate, expert and personal experience they deserve. On a previous episode, I spoke with the founder of our newest BRG Rebound, whose vision is to create an open and supportive environment to raise awareness of mental health and substance abuse diagnoses. On this episode, we'll hear from a member of the Rebound BRG about how the group has supported her and her thoughts on reducing stigma in the workplace. We'll also hear from a member of our Women Physicians BRG to get a clinical perspective on mental health. Tanya, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Can you tell me a bit about your role as a transporter in our organization? 01:40I am responsible for taking patients to procedures and taking patients up to the roof when they've been admitted. And I have a lot of interaction with patients. So I really enjoy just speaking with patients and helping them to get their mind off of things and just being there to support them in a unique role. Becky Knight  02:06Can you tell me a bit about the BRG you're involved in? 02:10Well, in New Hanover, we have a BRG that is focused on mental health awareness. It's called Rebound. And we are just trying to create a safe space for people to speak about what they may or may not be going through, what their family members may or may not be going through, just for them to be able to get help without being stigmatized by common misconceptions surrounding mental health. Becky Knight  02:55Would you mind sharing with me why you wanted to join the rebound Business Resource Group? 03:01I actually had a experience lately where I had to go in for a reactions with the medication and that reaction induced anxiety. Just that stigma of being afraid of going in for an issue that might coexist with anxiety. That is is the stigma that we're trying to combat. Becky Knight  03:35I spoke with Sarah Arthur in a previous episode, and she mentioned that in starting the BRG at first people were reluctant. And that's understandable, especially for a mental health group in the workplace. But that didn't stop you. Why not? 03:50I just have a great interest in helping people understand these issues and helping people understand that it's a medical issue, that there's a chemical imbalance in brain like we've all heard about. But we don't really know what to do with that information. That's just a sad thing, because it doesn't create that safe space that people should be able to feel when they go to a hospital for help. Becky Knight  04:18Yeah, definitely hospitals should be a safe space for sure. And I just appreciate what the BRG is doing because I think it's a good thing to be conscious of, for one thing, the words that we use to describe people and how even if we're talking, you know, among co workers, you think, well the patient can't hear you -- but your coworker hears you, your coworker hears what you're saying, and that might make them think twice about if you're a safe person or not for them to talk to. 04:48Everybody needs help sometimes whether that help is just talking to a friend or family member or a colleague or if they need to come in and get help from a doctor, you know, that's okay. And we're trying to create an environment where people feel safe to do that. Becky Knight  05:08Thank you, Tanya. I appreciate your dedication to your transporter role, and for helping our patients feel more at ease as you navigate them around the hospital. And I also appreciate your willingness to work towards educating all of us on how to be more compassionate with each other. At this point, I'd like to welcome Dr. Michelle Constantino to the discussion. She is a licensed clinical psychologist with Bariatric Solutions. She helps patients prepare for weight loss surgery, as well as help them live well after surgery. She's also a member of our Women Physicians Business Resource Group. Michelle, welcome. And thank you for being a part of this episode, I wanted to start with your thoughts on how the pandemic is affecting mental health. Michelle Constantino  05:55Yeah, I think it's been a huge change for people. I think people were isolated. And that was hard, especially people who lived alone. And then, I guess there's just different layers to it, because then there was people who are trying to also homeschool children and work full time jobs. So there was that stressor for people.  Becky Knight  06:16Yeah. And you've likely seen the reports by McKinsey, the Brookings Institution and others about how the pandemic has disproportionately affected women, especially women of color. So obviously, this is affecting our our team members, and they are feeling the impact at work and at home. A report from the Kaiser Family Foundation for women under 30, in particular found that 69% feel that the pandemic has harmed their mental health. So this is affecting our team members in their clinics in the hospitals and our corporate offices. It's something we need to address. And so if we're concerned about a family member or friend, coworker, or ourselves, What are the signs that the issue is more than just the normal day to day blues and blahs? When do we need to seek help? Michelle Constantino  07:07I think anything chronic so you know, we all have our days where we might just want to be left alone and might not pick up our phone or want to do something social. So that's, you know, normal, like I just want to kind of relax and you know, turn off from the outside world. But when that becomes a consistent pattern, so when you see someone doing that days on end, maybe coming home from work, and just isolating in their room, not picking up their phone, or missing work, you know, days of not showing up or not performing well. And, you know, your appetite changes, you can be more or less hungry for days. It's usually I mean depression, you see it, they say it's typically about two weeks. And that's when you want you want to know that something's going on. What else changes, um, you might sleep more, you might sleep less you you your sleep cycle can get disrupted, you might wake up really early or have middle the night awakening. So those are lots of signs and symptoms. Becky Knight  08:11So considering that mental health has long been difficult to access for many people, What tips do you have for how to access the help that you need? 08:24A couple ways to reach out for help are I mean, you can always just, you know, talk to a friend. At Novant, you can go through your employee assistance program. If you work for the hospital, you can see a therapist for free. You can also just call your insurance company, like call the number on the back of the card and they will tell you providers that accept your insurance. There is a website also psychologytoday.com. I love this website. When I've had a therapist in the past, it's honestly how I have found my therapist. You can go type in your zip code, you can check box, your insurance company and whatever you want to work on. Or you don't have to check any of those things. But you can see if you're working on depression, anxiety, just like life adjustments, relationship issues. And then it will populate profiles with pictures. And so you can read people's profiles see their picture and kind of get a feel for who might be a match for you. And then you can just email them or call them. And usually most therapists will give you like a free like consult. And so you can see if they're a good fit. And that's like the number one most important thing is to have a good rapport and a good relationship with your therapist. If you connection, you're probably not going to want to keep talking to them. So interview people . Interview and find a good connection. Becky Knight  09:46Do you have any tips for maybe for those of us who are working in healthcare, why it's so important to not stigmatize mental health and also for those who want to, you know, seek help, how to not let that be a barrier to them. It's okay to talk to somebody, it's okay. And it doesn't mean that somebody even has a diagnosis. And even if they do have a diagnosis, that's okay too. But don't make assumptions about anybody, like, you don't know what's going on in their personal lives. Like, they could have lost a family member during COVID. And they're supposed to sit there and dealt with that on their own like, it's okay, if they need to go talk to a therapist. A lot of mental health diagnoses are inherited. So there's a high percentage of you getting a disease from your family line. And when that happens, there's nothing you can do to change that, chemically speaking, right? You get your.. we all get what we get. And so what you can do is get support. And that looks like the right medication management. And I always say to my patients who come in and they're opening up for the first time I tell them, if you have asthma, you would use your inhaler to breathe, right? If you have diabetes, you take your insulin, so your sugar levels are where they need to be right? And so literally what mental health is hormonal imbalances in your brain. And so medication literally helps bring your hormones to where they need to be. There's a feedback loop between the brain and the body that works all day long to regulate all of our hormones. And sometimes that feedback loop just has a little miscommunication. And what medication does is get that communication back on track. So there's nothing wrong with that.  And any last words of wisdom or encouragement for folks to get the help that they might need? You're changing generations of dealing with mental health from, you know, maybe unhealthy coping to healthy coping, and people are changing that for their children as well. And I think it's a beautiful thing when someone can reach out and get help and make those changes. And so I think just you know, thinking about it, just like any other medical condition, you want your friend to take care of their bodies, they need to take care of their minds too. Dr. Michelle Constantino, thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom with us. And thank you to my earlier guests, Tanya, as well from New Hanover Regional Medical Center. I know that this will be useful information for many people. So thank you so much. Ashleigh Hargrave  12:28Thanks for listening to mosaic your podcast for diversity, inclusion and equity and Novant Health. Stay tuned for our next exciting episode.

August 20, 2021Mark, and Scott discuss questions from the Urology Coding and Reimbursement Group Question 1:  55 SecondsIs Rezum (53854) reimbursement dropping in 2022?Question 2 - minute 9:26CPT 55866 was denied when billed with C67.9 and C67.2. It has an LCD/NCD that only lists dx codes related to gender identity. Surely those are not the only conditions that support medical necessity! Does anyone know how to appeal to a payer that denies for a more specific condition? Thanks for your help!Question 3 - minute 13:50I have received denials from Medicare on the CPT 74425 when it's not billed with 50690. They claim it's an add-on code even though it's not listed as such in any CPT book or website that I've found. I've also not been able to find an LCD or NCD for it. Does anyone else have this issue and if so, how did you proceed?  Thanks for your help! Question 4 - minute 18:22Is there a cpt code for Renal Pelvic Washings?  Adapting Practice Compensation Plans WorkshopFair and Balanced Compensation Models for the Practicing UrologistIncludes: Live Online Workshop! - September 1st, 6:00 - 7:30pm EDT One-on-One 15 Minute Concept Review of YOUR Compensation Model Register Now Urology Advanced Coding and Reimbursement SeminarREGISTRATION OPENLive In-Person EventsInformation and RegistrationLas Vegas, December 3-4, 2021New Orleans, January 28-29, 2022Monthly Webinar RecordingRecording of the 2022 CMS Proposed Rules and the Impact on Urology Practices webinar is now available.Go here to view the recording and slides now...Recording/Slides Join the discussion:Urology Coding and Reimbursement Group - Join for free and ask your questions, and share your wisdom. Click Here to Start Your Free Trial of AUACodingToday.com  

Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »Andy Carvell is the Partner & Co-Founder of Phiture, a mobile growth agency. Here he has worked with some of the biggest apps on the App Store, including Headspace, Spotify, Triller, and VSCO.Prior to founding Phiture, Andy worked on the marketing and growth teams at SoundCloud. His team built SoundCloud's activity notification system, which delivered over 500 million pushes per month, and increased M1 retention by five percentage points in its first few months of operation. Andy has been in the mobile industry since the late ‘90s, when he started working at Nokia. Andy has a deep interest in technology, strategy and the execution of ideas.In this episode, you'll learn: Andy's user retention techniques The most overlooked component in marketing your app How to optimize your customer's App Store experience Andy's formula for maximizing your app's notification strategy Links & Resources SoundCloud Headspace Spotify Triller VSCO Nokia RevenueCat Salesforce Intercom Elevate KiwiCo Braze Leanplum Iterable Andy Carvell's Links Phiture Phiture's Mobile Growth Stack Andy on Twitter: @andy_carvell Andy on LinkedIn Work at Phiture Follow us on Twitter: David Barnard Jacob Eiting RevenueCat Sub Club Episode TranscriptAndy: 00:00:00So the impact that you can drive with notifications is reach, times relevance, times frequency. What we learned from the time at SoundCloud was not all notifications are equal, and the really killer ones that are going to really supercharge your business, have high reach, high relevance and high frequency.And then, then you're in that golden quadrant.David: 00:00:35Welcome to the Sub Club podcast. I'm your host, David Bernard. And with me is always Jacob Eiting. Hello, Jacob.Jacob: 00:00:42Hi, David. David: 00:00:43It's a thundering in your neck of the woods, I hear. Jacob: 00:00:46It's, you know, it's cleared up now. I think we're gonna make it.David: 00:00:50I've got a plumber. Our guests might have some construction workers. It's going to be a fun one today!Jacob: 00:00:55Is it, David? You're breaching the magic of podcasting and it's going to get audited out.David: 00:01:01All right. Speaking of our guests, our guest today is Andy Carvell, partner and co-founder of Phiture, a mobile growth agency. At Phiture, Andy has worked with some of the biggest apps on the App Store, including Headspace, Spotify, Triller, and VSCO.Prior to find founding Phiture, Andy worked on the marketing and growth teams at SoundCloud.Welcome to the podcast, Andy.Andy: 00:01:23Thanks, David. A real pleasure. Thanks for inviting me on. Excited to be here.David: 00:01:27Yeah. So, you and I were chatting a little bit about your background as I was kind of prepping your bio, and you shared a really fun anecdote. So, I think I'm like, “Old man in the mobile space,” you know, or Jacob and I both; we both had apps on the App Store in 2008, you know, we were early. But you started in mobile a little, just a few years before that. Andy: 00:01:52Just a little bit more. David: 00:01:53Tell us about that. You were at Nokia making games in 1999.Andy: 00:01:58Yeah, right out of university, I graduated computer science in ‘99. I always wanted to be making games, and I was applying for roles in the games industry, and then the agent that was kind of helping me find those said, “Hey, there's this company Nokia. They make mobile phones.”I didn't own a mobile phone at that point. None of my friends did, but it was just kind of reaching the tipping point, and they wanted to put games on these things, and I'm like, okay, that's sounds interesting.I went along to the interview. I really was very kind of amazed at the, you know, the R and D center there. It was like, like pretty space age, you know, they were working on some real next level shit.And, I was actually pretty excited by the idea of like cramming, you know, decent games into like 16 kilobytes, which is what I had to play with building embedded games on a black and white 84 by 48 pixel display.Jacob: 00:02:55So, I was going to ask, are we talking like Snake, or are we talking like Java level stuff?Andy: 00:03:00It was pre Java. It was an embedded game. So, I was coding in C in Assembly, and I basically had to like build the whole game from start to finish. We had this shared designer who did the pixel art, and I had to cram it into 16K and make it fun. Yeah.I wrote a pretty game called Space Impact there, which was released on the 3310 phone, which I think wasn't available in America. But in the rest of world a lot of people played that game. It was like the first, side-scrolling arcade, shoot-them-up, on a mobile.David: 00:03:30That is amazing. Jacob: 00:03:31Well, it's pretty incredible. Just even think like the iPhone wasn't that far behind that right? Like you were doing 16K assembly and C, and like eight years later, we were going to have like open GL driven games. So just pretty wild.Andy: 00:03:51Yeah, it's moved on a lot.David: 00:03:53So after Nokia, you spent some time at SoundCloud, and there's a couple of things you did at SoundCloud that I wanted to dig into, because it seems like you've kind of continued that work at Phiture, and it's really relevant to our audience in subscriptions. So, one of those is the mobile life cycle program, and this is something I think so much about.There's such a huge story that's hard to tell, and hard to really understand. It's something like, you know, I think we can help with at RevenueCat that I'm constantly thinking of from a product perspective, and I think developers often it's like, you get an install, you get them to start a free trial and they convert and like, but there's so many other journeys and so many parts of the life cycle that, that need to be studied.So, tell me about this mobile lifecycle program, kind of the origins, and then, you know how you see it today?Andy: 00:04:53Yeah. Yeah. I was that SoundCloud for about four and a half years in the end. I was working on various teams, but ended up actually building out a cross-functional team focused on user retention, which is where I got really into the lifecycle topic.And yeah, it's, you're absolutely right. It's, it's a pretty complex topic. It's one that we have continued to develop processes and, and, you know, best practice around at Phiture, where we're helping companies like Cisco and, yeah. Blinkist actually is a, is another one that we're working with, recently. But yeah, everybody seems to struggle with this because it is such a, a giant topic, as you say, David, there's a lot to it.There's a lot of different touch points you can have with the user. And it all comes, starts with understanding the user journey, right. And understanding users probably better than you currently do. And that, for me, always starts with asking them questions rather than diving straight into the analytics and looking at funnels.I think it's something that's really overlooked in, in tech companies. You know, we have all this data available. And so the instinct is just to dive in and look at the numbers. Now, I think quantitative tells a very interesting story and for sure you need to be tracking what, what users are doing to, to understand those users quantitatively.But, you also want to understand the psychology of the user at these different points. What are they thinking? What are they hoping for? What are they expecting? And you know, I think a great lifecycle program from, you know, actually user life cycle starts outside of the store right outside of the app, rather. So it starts in the stores.Jacob: 00:06:38Yeah. So did the need, right?Andy: 00:06:40Yes. It starts with a need or what? and then, you know, hopefully. Somehow the user discovers the app. It's either through an advert or maybe a friend has mentioned it, or, you know, there could be many ways that they come to the App Stores, but then, you know, they're all going to go through that App Store, which is why the Phiture.We also put a lot of work into App Store optimization with our clients. You know, you start the user journey there, you're setting the expectation, in your ad creative and in your App Store page. It's a great opportunity to. To sell the benefits of the app and qualify your users, you know? Well, because you're, you're really then.You know, setting, setting that expectation, which you then need to deliver on in the very first session in the app. So then you get into onboarding and activation and, you know, that can be both within the product, but also augmented by a multi-channel messaging approach, which is we did a lot of work with that at SoundCloud.Because this is like, for me, this is the kind of the hack, right? The magic bullet. Is that not that. Not that CRM is the most effective lever for, for engaging users, actually that's product. but CRM is a great way to circumvent a six month product backlog and engineering backlog and, and, and rapidly iterate on ideas.And, and also it's got built in measurement and, and segmentation. So you can do some really interesting stuff. Sorry. You had Jacob: 00:08:07So, yeah. So when you say CRM, I mean, like, I know CRM is like in my world, Salesforce, or maybe Intercom or something, I guess, but when I've heard, I've heard this used in the marketing world, but what is, what is the more, seems like there's a lot more broad context or a broad definition of that term.Andy: 00:08:24Yeah. And there's so many different terminology and definitions around it. It's a, it's very confusing as with everything in tech, but. Yeah. So when I say CRM, which is customer relationship management, and, and that goes back to the sixties and seventies, you know, classic business, you know, theory actually, it's nothing new that we've invented it just with tech, but, when I'm talking about CRM in a mobile app scenario, I'm talking about leveraging a customer engagement platform like braise or Leanplum or, Iterable maybe.And, You know, it's typically what you've got available in that kind of stack would be, something sort of rudimentary analytics enough to do sort of targeting and triggering of messages as well as basic measurement around like what the effects of those messages are. Although typically you'd want to pair that with.Your product analytics to get a deeper view on how it's affecting retention or, you know, or monetization for that matter. but yeah, you're able to sort of carve out segments of users and then craft, interaction. So, so the, the tools you mentioned there, Salesforce, IndyCar, definitely still in that mix.We don't, we don't see them so much specifically Salesforce. We see it more in enterprise. most, mostly. Let's he around email as a channel. but you know, this sort of more modern or mobile first platforms such as prays, for example, you know, really kind of built to leverage, mobile specific channels, like, push and rich push, mobile in-app messaging, which is a killer channel for engaging users who are in the app.And it's where it kind of bridges the gap between classic products. Classic marketing, because you can really kind of overlay an old man. New experiences on top of what's what's built in the product, which sometimes causes some tension with, with the designers. But, but actually you can make them look, you can make them look super native.And, yeah, you can test and iterate on them quickly, which is the real benefit I think of using a platform like that is you can, if you have testing on onboarding for example, and you're looking at day zero users, you've got a fresh cohort every day. You can run. You know, if you've got enough, big enough cohorts, you can, you can iterate every day if you want, or at least every couple of days.Jacob: 00:10:45Yeah. As long As you're getting a few thousand downloads, right. Or, you know, or even like even hundreds, right. If you're getting hundreds of downloads, like those are significant enough cohorts, especially if you're running, you know, tasks very towards that, very beginning of the experience. Right. So you get like lots of exposure, but yeah.And then it's typically very high leverage too, right? Because we found this at elevate a lot. just the nature of funnels is that. There were all these like tests and kind of experiments we wanted to do further down the funnel, like, oh, how was like the last step look and all this stuff. And it turns out nine times out of 10.It was not really that important because what really mattered was the first step or the second step, because that's just where the most people were. Right. It didn't matter. We could get half the lift there, but it mattered more because they hadn't decayed all the way through the funnel. Right. Which is, there's a lot of these like unintuitive aspects of, yeah.I guess when you think about a CRM, it's like, The pre-experience finding you getting into the app. Re-engaging right. That are in some ways, like there's an overlapping piece with products. Right. But it's broader, right. It exists like sort of outside of the, the, the specific software itself. and, and yeah.Thinking about it holistically, as David was saying earlier, it's difficult. Right. It's difficult because of the time-based aspects is to, because it's, multi-platform, it's difficult because, you know, The tooling still leaves something to be desired. but, but, yeah, I think it's really interesting to, to, to talk about using your user interviews in that process, because, you traditionally think about doing that in a product process, right.When you're like trying to talk to users about what to build, but you actually need to be talking to them about how, how do they, what do they, want? Like, why do they, why are they here? Like, why did you want to inform, like, you know, how are you contacting them communicating with them, et cetera. Andy: 00:12:32Pretty much so. David: 00:12:33Yeah. And then. So part of that, life cycle management is this multi-channel notification systems. And you've kind of already mentioned that a little bit, but, so in mobile apps and the clients that you're working with at Fisher Phiture, and then some of the work you've done, you did previously at SoundCloud. how do you kind of manage the. The breadth of available channels. Now you've got email, you've got in-app, you've got push. you know, and have you seen kind of patterns in, in certain channels performing better with these kinds of mobile audiences?Andy: 00:13:11Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think to some extent it depends on the, the, the app itself and the audience for that app. you know, we still see SMS, for example, being a really impactful channel in, in some specific categories, like, you know, SoundCloud couldn't send SMS. I think it would be a bad idea.Possibly in some markets, you know, maybe they're a slightly less developed. They have all the funds, but I'd say it's probably not a great channel for SoundCloud, for example. But, you know, we, we did some work with, with good RX, which is a, like a prescription yeah. discount service in America is huge.I think they, I think they might've had IPO recently, but, yeah, in any case, SMS is still a huge channel for them. because they're, you know, a lot of their customers are older people. With, you know, with who are not necessarily engaging with, with emails or, or necessarily in app messages. I mean, I think an app is generally a pretty great channel for anyone who's in the app, but actually with some, some apps it's not a very valuable channel at all because the users barely in the app, if you're thinking about sort of very functional experiences, like, I'd say Uber, Uber is a, is a good example.Like there's definitely some room. To even with mobility startups to interact with users while they're in the app, but you don't want to get in their way because they're there to book a ride and get in it. So you have like limited surface area. So yeah, really, you know, when we go in this Phiture, you know, our retention team goes into to build out a, an engagement strategy with a customer.We very much like to understand not just their usage. But also, you know, figure out what is the right channel mix. That makes sense. We actually put up, I think a while back a, a, a matrix, which kind of highlights the pros and cons of each channel and how they can be used in combination. Maybe a I can, I can take out the link and we can include it in the podcast. David: 00:15:02Yeah. And you know, it's funny. I feel like I see all these like threats on Twitter about like, especially from like the kind of indie developer scene about like, you know, don't, you know, do a newsletter, like email is evil and like, and then I'm always the one that's like, I kind of liked newsletter. It's like, as long as it's not like overly aggressive.And then same with SMS. I found myself lately, just ended up with a couple of apps, like a thrive market. It's like a shopping. it's kind of like Amazon grocery ish kind of stuff. And they're texting me and I kinda like it. And I never would've thought, you know, cause like they're pushing notifications, they just get lost.But like I care about when my order shifts and I care. And so it's interesting how I think, you know, sometimes we in tech underestimate. That when somebody really cares about something, they don't mind. Getting notified about it, but that's where you have to like, be really careful of where you draw these lines and how you do your messaging and what the user really cares enough about.But when they do, you know, you, you know, it's always felt to me as a developer, like, oh, SMS is like, it's just off the table. Like, I wouldn't touch that. But then like, now I'm like, wait a minute. Like if it's something I use, it really cares about like, it's a Bible platform and as a Jacob: 00:16:21For transactional stuff, right? Like your ship order shipped and things like that. And then, you know, it's becomes something you can piggyback marketing messaging or expansion or product marketing onto. Right. but I always, I was the, at that point is super validated across to you is your Twitter is not really.Right. and, and it's totally true that like the developers and the communities and the styles that we have often as people who make software and our insiders is very different from the, the median consumer, which is not even a thing. There is a median consumer, right. You're dealing with this huge distribution of users and different, they have different tastes and they have different appetites for, for marketing and all this stuff.And yeah, I always believe. Give them control. Like obviously don't do anything on tour. Don't message people. If they say not to write and give people like an opt in opt out, like, you know, as clear choice in the onboarding funnel. But yeah, you'd be surprised. Like people don't have as much stuff going on sometimes or have as much noise in their, in their feed.Really want to engage. And those are the users that you really should be reaching. Right. Because they are like, they're, they're not only installing your app, but they're willing to show some intent to engage with you. Right. Because they have a real purpose to be there. Right. As opposed to like a drive by or something like this.Right. And so, yeah. I don't know. I think that that is. Goes beyond just this one particular topic. Cause like we, yeah, we hear developers all the time. Like being like, oh, I don't want to tell. I mean, I even remember me going back to elevate again, being when we started to, we hired a growth marketer and started to work some of these new notification channels.I was very against it. Like I thought this was like disrespectful to our users. It was just growth hacking. It was whatever. Then I saw the numbers, right? Like, I don't know the retention didn't go down. All the other numbers went up. I was like, well, I guess people don't care. Right. Or at least like the people that don't care aren't big enough to matter.I mean, they matter, but like, I don't know, I'm building a business here at some point. Right. So, it's, counter-intuitive,David: 00:18:17This goes to your earlier point though. And I was just going to bring it up up is 12 south. I just bought this forte stand thing. That's like one of my favorite products I bought in a long time. It's amazing. It's like wireless charging for my phone. I can drop my AirPods pro on there and it charges a little ad for them real quick.But I went to unsubscribe to their email because they were sending me like two weeks. I was like, well, I don't want to, I don't want to unsubscribe. It's actually like 12 south lake. They make good products. I love this product. I just bought from them. I want to know what they're up to. So I go to unsubscribe because I was like, I just can't, I can't do two emails a week from these people.And then the, the email thing was like, Hey, do you want to just hear from us, you know, twice a week, once a week or once a month, I was like, once a month. Cool. Like, I'd love to hear from them once a month. I wish more newsletters would do that. And the opposite. I subscribed to Kiwi co boxes for my kids.And they email me like four times a week and I've even talked to their Twitter team and they're like, we're going to put you on the like slow thing. And they don't, and I keep getting four emails a week, so I'm just going to unsubscribe.Jacob: 00:19:21A lot. It's a lot, right? Like it's a lot to, like, we're talking about, I'm sure, Andy, you deal with this all the time. Like just getting that first version of like a marketing product marketing campaigns going, it's hard to add in like, well, okay, you'll have the, the one month and you know, it takes time to build those things up, so it doesn't surprise me, but it is.Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to, well, it's a tough choice as product and builders. Right. We always have to decide like, what are the corners we're going to cut? What are the, like the boxes we're going to shove everybody in. Right. Because we're not gonna be able to like, perfectly meet. Everybody's like appetite for this stuff where they are.Right. That's going to be impossible. and so, I mean, I feel like that's where the measurement comes in, right? Andy?Andy: 00:20:00Yeah, so you've touched on so many interesting points there. I know we don't have two hours to discuss them all, but I would love to just quickly pick up on it. before we get onto to measurement and, and personalization, I think it's all going to flow. So, first point, you mentioned like, you know, developers. Maybe not the target audience for the app. That is so true. And I mean the less, unless you get, get up, you know, for sure. But, you know, for the vast majority of like consumer apps that are targeting essentially, you know, global audiences of more or less like, you know, broad audiences, like, you know, I don't know, 18 to 30 males and females or whatever, who were into a particular.Sport or something like this. These people are not, they're not engineers. They don't hate notifications. Right? You know, the only way you can prove that as a growth marketer is by getting a little bit of surface area where you are allowed to run experiments. or as, as we, as my team tit in, in, at SoundCloud in the early days, we would run them in places like Pakistan.We would just, SoundCloud's going to kill me when they hear this, but, you know, we would just. Just just not send them to Berlin, you know, where all the engineers were based, but we tested me the rest of the world, or if it was particularly something like a bit more daring, a bit more bold and you need to run Volvo experiments.Sometimes we would run them in Pakistan. We'd get a good feel for like, you know, what the uplift was and then we'd take it to the lawyers. Cause sometimes there was, you know, there were also even legal issues about where we could tread the line with user generated content and promotion. music licensing is a minefield, but, but yeah, my point.Jacob: 00:21:45Yes,Andy: 00:21:45It's only when you can kind of come back with data and show it to, you know, the exec team and say, look, we just moved retention five percentage points. This is huge. then they kind of give you a bit more leeway to, to send a few more notifications. and yeah, like the, the, but, you know, we had so much resistance from, from the tech team and, you know, the engineers.Convinced we were going to destroy the product and it comes from a very, very good place. You know, they care about the product. They care about the users, they just, they just are not representative of the users. and that comes to my second point. Which is, I learned a lot from my time at SoundCloud and from building out a, real-time notification system that was, you know, from, was kicking out around 500 million push notifications per month.So it was, you know, we, we got there in the end with the, with the volume. but, you know, one of the things which I kind of distilled later when I was at Phiture, I kind of thought back to that time and distilled it into a formula. So the impact that you can drive with notifications, is reach times relevance, times frequency.And I'll just break that down very quickly. So reach we're talking about, you know, your overall channel opt-in rate. So how many people are actually opted in for push or in this case? I'd also like what if your segment that, that whole, audience then what stage of the funnel they're at, which is to David's point earlier about how you have a greater surface area or a greater reach as I would put it, earlier on in the funnel, because more users are still around.So. yeah, so that's your reach and that's a big lever on, on how much impact you're going to drive with any particular notification. Is that is your size of your target audience. That's addressable, second one relevance, which you've also touched on, in your examples there. if it's highly relevant, users will tolerate not just tolerate, but actually welcome a high volume of notifications, which is th th the third, parameter there in that formula that the third variable, which is pretty cool.How frequently can you send this particular notification before people start to opt out and then it like brings you a reach down. So it's basically like a, it's not a Seesaw because there's three elements to it. Right. But it's some kind of 3d sea sore, where if you get the right balance and you're able to tweak, tweak those things, there's a tension between those three variables.Right. But if you're. April to increase relevance by, by personalization, you know, by providing in SoundCloud's case more relevant recommendations for content. Or, looking at what users have listened to before and, and telling them more things about artists that they've been listening to and things like that that would increase the relevance, which means you can proxy that by click through rate, they're much less likely to turn them off and you can send more of those notifications.You can increase that frequency. And so what I learned from that, what we learned from the time at SoundCloud. Not all notifications are equal and the really killer ones that are going to really supercharge your business, have high rates, high relevance, and high frequency. And then, then you're in that, that, that golden quadrant David: 00:24:51Would imagine. I don't know if you, if y'all have built things out internally to, to Phiture, but I imagine that kind of 3d Seesaw is really hard to measure. It's really hard to understand. Which, which ones are driving relevance, which ones.And especially once you get into personalization where now you're not dealing with just massive AB tests, you're actually like almost doing user level, understanding of what's relevant and what's not SoSo it brings us to the, to the next big topic and we can kind of dive into that aspect of it later, but you got to build out a stack for this.And so, and this is something I, I, you've done a great job of, of kind of boiling a lot of this down into the mobile growth stack. And I wanted to talk through a few kind of levels of the mobile growth stack. So a lot of apps. You know, I taught as developer advocate. I talked to a ton of revenue, cat customers.So a lot of apps all the way from like, you know, Hey, we just have an idea where we're like thinking about subscriptions to Indies, to like huge companies. And, but you have a lot of people super early who are kind of overbuilding and then you have people in the middle, like, what do I do now? So let's talk through kind of a stack for, for your MVP and then onto your kind of intermediate and then to your kind of growth stage.Like what's the like, MVP I'm want to get this out, but I want to have just enough, you know, measurement just enough analytics, just enough data to, to start growing this thing.Andy: 00:26:28Yeah. Great question. And, and, yeah, it's a, it's a really good topic actually, because you know, this mobile growth stack framework, which, which, which I published originally at SoundCloud, and we continue to develop a Phiture, you know, it's, it's huge, there's loads of stuff on this. It's basically trying to encapsulate everything that, you know, Could form part of your marketing strategy and your, your growth approach to growing, growing a mobile app.So, so sometimes people misinterpret that as, oh, I have to do all of these things have to tick all of these boxes in order to be successful. no, absolutely not. Like, you know, you have to play to your strengths and also to you. So your company stage and your, your priorities, right. And for sure, if you try to overreach, you try to do everything.You're going to do it all really badly, or at least most things, so much better to focus. And, yeah, I think this could be another good, blog post actually that I should write. But, but yeah, let's, let's dive into it now. Let's let's have a go. So like early stage, right. Prelaunch or, well, Let's skip pre-launch for a second.Let's say you've just launched into the market, with your, you know, with your new app. I think what I see often is a challenge with early stage customers and frankly why we don't work with super early stage customers. Because they have unrealistic expectations. They, they think they're ready for growth.But in, you know, accepted except in absolutely like, you know, stand out anomalous cases like maybe flappy bird would be a good example, that that was ready for hyper-growth pretty much from day one, I think just, just happened to catch the zeitgeists, but you know, you can't bank on that. And most 99.9% of apps will not have that kind of success.So actually what an early stage. Team needs to work on is product market fit. Whether they, whether they think they do or not. They're probably two, two or three years away from market product market fit. That means they need to iterate on the product and they need to iterate on the marketing and, you know, meet there somewhere in the middle with some level of, you know, kind of a retention curve that flattens out at least somewhere along that curve.Jacob: 00:28:34Was thinking about this, this, this product market fit meaning, and I don't know, it's one of these words that it's, it's, it's, it's constantly an enigma to founders and because nobody can tell you what it is, right. I think because it's different for every product is different for every segment is different for every market.Like what it actually looks like in our, in this space consumer subscription space, it generally has to do. The, yeah, the, I think that's the best, a very good definition of it. The pretension curves that do flatten out because like, you don't get in this face, you don't tend to get like, exp like super stable user cohorts.They always like drop off to some level, but you want to see like some reasonable level out in some like shortest period of time, which takes a while with subscription apps to really understand like 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 months, or like for the annual renewals, it takes a year to really understand it. but focusing on the product.Yeah, it's really what you need to do at elevate. We actually, before we even launched and we weren't subscription when we launched, but we. We had a, an just an or, yeah, we just released on, Android. So we had an Android app. We could, it was great. Cause we could release a new version every week, and do a beta list.And we could, we, we, we curated a list or it was sorry, it was Android and iOS. And we used like test flight, distributions. But, and we measured each cohort. Right. And it's not talking about, we weren't AB testing. We weren't like driving in massive downloads or anything like this, but we were just looking like each, like some subsequent cohort, like what was their first.10, you know, what were these like how many signed up? How many finished? Like activated and we just watched and like watched we iterated on the app until we felt like that number was pretty good. And then we launched, but we didn't do AB testing. We didn't like massively like go over the top and tracking.Right. It was just like a handful, like really things. Cause the thing is you're going to score. Right. Like AB testing is really hard. It's expensive. Not because of the tooling, it's expensive because operationally it's really difficult to get. Right. And you gotta put a lot of people on it. So, that, that really starting simple mentality will save you a lot of headaches. I think.David: 00:30:37Yeah, we had a great episode with Doris Maura from reflecting on this about just, just that minimally viable, like shoot for product market fit. And, you know, don't do sophisticated AB testing. Don't do all this stuff you think you need to do. And then even some of the stuff that they, you know, you could install braise or like try and do these big things early. You can find ways around it. Like you can do simple email surveys, you can do simple user testing. You can, you can, you know, use Zapier for things to kind of like bridge the gap and don't go build a ton of internal tooling around it, but like do the simple hacky things that don't scale early on and then move on.So then let's talk about like, okay, you've reached some level of market product market fit, you know, your, You know, your, your marketing seems to be resonating. You've got some decent retention and you're starting to really pour money into user acquisition. What's kind of that next level up, that you think companies should start layering on new new services and new sophistication.Andy: 00:31:46Yeah. So I'm talking here like primarily about, you know, growth stuff rather than Phiture building. I'm kind of assuming that there's, there's always more Phitures to build, although, you know, I would actually say. Probably people generally keep building Phitures when they should probably stop. They always think that another Phiture is going to be the thing, which really helps what right.Exactly. And can I say be detrimental to a point, you know, like when, when it becomes too crowded, so, but yeah, so talking about the, you know, the, the growth stack and the, the, the growth activities that would. Appropriate as, as you've got that initial traction and you're looking to scale it, which is where Phitured can get involved.By the way like this. Typically we work with either kind of traction and growth stage companies, or actually more mature kind of increasingly like enterprise folks who maybe have a very mature product in the market. And they're looking at they're kind of plateaued and they're looking to scale it, but yeah, in, in that growth place, super exciting phase, there, I think it's really about. You know, you want to be able to start to scale. So that's. You're going to need to upgrade your analytics, probably in stock, trucking more stuff, to get a better understanding of, you know, deeper understanding of your engagement, your retention, and for sure the performance of your acquisition channels, whether they're, whether they're organic, paid or some mix.Because you'd likely to want to start adding layering in more acquisition, either scaling the channels that are working for you, or when they max out or start getting expensive, you know, layering in other channels. I would also recommend like, you know, I wouldn't build it right at the start, but in this growth phase, it's good to experiment with virality.Like, you know, I always say it's, you can't really plan for virality, but you can at least. So the seeds and see if they germinate, right? Like you, if you don't cultivate the right conditions for virality to occur, it never will. but if you, you know, if you have like, you know, the ability to share content, if there's a content app, if you put those share Phitures in, then at least you can kind of see what the kind of natural PR, prediction of, of users is to, to share to their users, to share to their friends.For example, the networks, then you, if you see something. Some traction there, you can, you can optimize it, but even if it's just doing it a little bit, it may be it's helping to keep your paid acquisition costs down and you have your blended acquisition. Costco is a bit more sustained. and maybe you see that actually you go super viral.You know, I've seen it happen. So I think like, you know, building potentially referral systems or content shares depends on your app, but I'd say if you do them in a fairly cheap way, but just at least at least put those in and see if that, you know, is going to be something that's going to help you grow.Because if you find that it is for SoundCloud, virality was huge, you know, so, but of course it, it works better with, with social apps and content apps. Yeah. Apart from that, you know, I'd say like, you know, you're going to be, you're going to be continuing to iterate on the product. I'd say ASO becomes more important at this point.Like, so optimizing your App Store page for, you know, for organic discovery, making sure that you're ranking for the right keywords. and also start to think about international. I think a lot of companies. Focus on their coal market and the one that they know best, which is often, you know, us or, you know, whatever country that, you know, the team is based in.They often start there and they know that market best. But, you know, I think one of the things which going back again to SoundCloud, what are the things they did very well was, you know, even though they were headquartered in Berlin, they didn't have this German outlook actually that, that the founders were not even from here.And they built it global from the start, you know? So they, they basically, it was available everywhere. you know, when I came into to help them level up on, on mobile, you know, we made sure that we translated the App Store page into all the languages. When I came in, it was just an idea. but even English is a good start compared to, you know, most of the languages.But you know, pretty, I'd say at this growth stage, see, it's about exploring you don't necessarily, you know where those big leavers are for scale yet, but it's about discovering them. So maybe, maybe it's virality. Maybe, maybe there's a market that you're not localized in yet, which could. You just, you just catch fire in that market, you know, so it's not about doing huge installations, the launches and doing a huge, you know, traditional kind of PR push in, in, you know, launching in us or whatever, but, you know, at least making sure the apps available there are, you know, in, in, in as many of your big markets as possible, make sure that it's translated, you know, localizing the applicant, using the App Store presence and just seeing, you know, getting a feel for.You know, are you going to be a very local app or you, do you have a global, potential you have really trying to tease out, like, what are the acquisition channels that are going to work for you? And what are the, what are the other leavers for growth, you know? And, probably you want to start doing a little bit more in terms of CRM or customer engagement at this point. you know, Which, which does also doesn't make sense when you, when you're a superstar. But you're sort of building the foundations for the next phase of growth and then leading into the things which are showing promise. David: 00:37:05Nice. And then we are coming up on time, but, can you give us a, like a 92nd, two minute, quick drill? I think, you know, I, I don't know that that many, like massive apps are going to be listening to this podcast, so maybe it's not even quite as relevant anyway. Jacob: 00:37:23David, I think I like to think every apps can be a massive David: 00:37:25Every app. Yes. Andy: 00:37:27Right. The massive apps of the future Jacob: 00:37:29Yeah, David: 00:37:30Once you get to that stage of a head space of calm of disco, you know, what, what is the stack start to look like there?Andy: 00:37:37So, when you get to that kind of scale and we're working with folks like, you know, like, like this go, like, Blinkist, Headspace folks, you mentioned, an a and a whole bunch more, some that I'm not allowed to talk about, which I wish I could name drop, but, I'll get into trouble. but some, some really big enterprise brands and some household names.And when you're at that kind of scale, you know, when you're doing, oh, I can mention Trilla trailer's is a good one. I'm going to give them a call out there. They're a customer of ours, awesome platform. anyway, when you're at that scale where you're just seeing like, Insane acquisition, just on a, you know, that becomes the norm to get like more than a hundred thousand thousand downloads, you know, like a day, which, which we see with some of the apps, when you, when you're at that kind of scale.Even incremental gains can be really, really meaningful, particularly on monetization. Right? So I would say there, you really want to then focus on subscription optimization and revenue optimization, way more than you would in the earliest stages, because you're, you've proven you've, you've got all the elements in place.You can really then start to scale. And if you can, you can increase your, you know, average subscription lifetime by a month, or you can increase your conversion rate even by like, Point one of a percent on your, you know, your subscription conversion at that scale, it's it can be really meaningful.Right. So, I think activities which maybe you wouldn't have spent so much time on before, maybe you've built out rudimentary stuff for maybe you have rudimentary tech in place for it's time to start upgrading that stuff and, and going deep on these topics. So things, again, like, you know, ASO, it's more like.You know, something which you need to keep doing. You're constantly kind of optimizing there to get as many organics in as possible. You want to be of course, continuing to optimize your, your acquisition. But I would assume at that point, you've kind of got those things more or less nailed and it's, it's almost like a hygiene factor.It's more than a hygiene factor, but sorry, you said to keep this quick. yeah, I'd say I I'd say like big focus on yeah. Retention because you know, again, it's a slow moving metric, but if you can move it even, yeah. Point five of percentage point that'll give such compound growth and also like, you know, knock on gains for monetization work a lot, you know, diligently on conversion optimization and starting to sort of segment your user base further, to provide more segmented experiences, you know, because you will have those cohorts in that scale where you can start to do really interesting stuff and, and lean into AI and personalization to, to really get to that increased relevance in your recommendations and community.Jacob: 00:40:13This is why it makes sense to really do AB testing. Right? Cause you can hire a team, right. To focus on it. You had multiple data people. You've got engineers, you've got, you've got to have an entire growth engineering and experimentation team. and that's what you need. Andy: 00:40:28Bring in Phiture.Jacob: 00:40:29Yeah, there you go. Or, yeah, bring somebody in, right? If you need it in a pinch, you know?So, yeah, it's, it's, it's a different game. This is how all of these things go, though. It's like, you gotta every incremental compounding something like a business like this, like every, every, the next 10 X is always going to just be different, because, like different tools, different mindset, there's going to be different, different returns on different actions, right?And I think, you know, when I talk to people at different stages, a lot of times folks get this, get this wrong. They, they, they think they need you. You were mentioning at the beginning, Andy, like just thinking we're ready to scale when you're really not. Right. And so it, there is a lot of value in just understanding how different a hundred thousand downloads is from 10,000, from a hundred, right?Those are very different numbers. All of those, like none of those tell me, like, you're dead, right? It's just a different stage. And, and doing the right things at this stage is super important. So I, I really like how you break this down into like, different phases.Cause I think that's how, app developers should be thinking about it.David: 00:41:36I think as a, as a summary and talking through this with you and he's really helped me kind of frame it finally is that when you're early, you take big swings that don't need sophisticated measurement to see the result. You don't need sophisticated A/B testing. You don't need sophisticated analytics.You need to take big swings that give you big results. Those obvious results. Then as you grow, you can start taking smaller swings that require a little bit more sophistication. And then as you're scaling huge, that's when you get into minutia, and too many small apps are getting into the minutia too early.So, big swings early, you can take those smaller swings later. But anyways, as we wrap up we're going to put in the show notes your Twitter, Growth Stack, great places to follow. You're constantly sharing amazing content there. Anything else you wanted to share with our fine cadre of a subscription app practitioners?Andy: 00:42:36Yeah, actually I've got a really exciting announcement. This is the perfect audience for it. At Phiture we're hiring right now for a Subscription Optimization Lead position. It's a super exciting role. You get to really be in on the ground floor, building out a team and an essentially a new P and L line that we're going to breaking out from our existing services.I'm really doubling down on subscriptions because it's like such a big topic, and we're really looking for the subscription expert to come in and lead that team, you know, a fantastic place to work, et cetera, et cetera. You know, you'll work with some AAA clients, some great names that I can't talk about today.You work with a fantastic team of experts if you can come to Berlin and work with us here, because it's obviously not in Berlin today, but Berlin is an awesome place to move to. We'd also consider remote, I think, don't quote me on that, but, yeah. Get in touch. you can find the job spec to go to the Phiture site: phiture.com, and go to the careers page. You'll find it there and to subscription optimization.Yeah, we'd love to get that out to your audience, because I'm sure there's some people there that might be really interested in that role.Jacob: 00:43:44I'm looking at the requirements, here, proficiency in IAP management, you know, it's right in my wheelhouse. So maybe I'll throw my hat in the ring.David: 00:43:53Well, Andy, it was really great having you on the podcast. And, yeah, we're going to have to have you back on there's so much more, and Phiture does such great work. And we, we share some customers and so, you know, we see the, the results of the work you do on our end. And it's really great.so, thanks for being on the podcast, and we'll talk again soon. Andy: 00:44:15Thanks for having me on. Thanks, David. Thanks, Jacob. It's been a pleasure.

Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast's very first episode where your host, Lesley Logan, interviews the amazing Joanna Vargas! Joanna is a natural born entrepreneur and has always worked for herself. Together they cover everything from how to stop creating drama in your own life, to questioning everything, to how to create positive change and make your life even better than it is right now. You'll love Joanna's enthusiasm for life, her fiery spirit and her insight.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co .And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you'll learn about:It's not wrong or right, it's all a choice, what can it create, will it create?Open loopsOur brains want answers, they want a period. Completion. Judgement is a period. Don't put a period on it.As a young girl I was very aware. Awareness, is it cool to be aware?Lemonade stand, unique ways to stand out, stand apartThe planet grows and grows, changes and does whatever she needs to do to grow“What do you know?” Get curiouswe're brought up to listen to our parents, they know everything, we're not supposed to be curiousLL: What would I be doing if I was already where I want to be?Remember Whenor “Why?”thinking, asking a curious questionPLAY A GAMEWe will do everything so that we can be rightthere's a lie herewe will find the signs/evidence in it so that we're rightTop 5 Fears“this feels heavy, so I'm not gonna do it”… is that a lie?Notice how she uses your NAME??? She says “Lesley” in every other sentenceHow can you partner up?Play “Remember When”Action items from Joanna VargasYou have a choice. Life isn't happening TO youIf you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser and Castbox.Lesley Logan ResourcesLesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesFollow Lesley on Social MediaInstagramFacebook LinkedInJoanna Vargas Bio:Joanna Vargas creates her life. A powerhouse entrepreneur right out of high school, Joanna never worked corporate and chose the path less traveled. At 20 years old she formed her corporation, took all of her savings and produced a dance showcase in Hollywood called The King of Pop. With Joanna's quick (some might say crazy) work ideas, this venture quickly turned into a dance competition called Maxt Out now going on its 20th year.Using keen street smarts and with no professional business training, she created Jayvee Dance studio by the time she was 24 and built that business to 700 students. A true serial entrepreneur, Joanna sold that dance studio and prepared to design her next download (from The Universe).Joanna recognized a gap in conversations about mindset and physical form when it came to fitness and responded with the solution, The Fit Factor Studio; a wildly successful brick and mortar fitness studio catering to women, their mindset and living fully. In the process, Joanna's own work-life philosophy, built on the principles of asking better questions and getting really curious about life, inspired her to make the choice to close the physical doors and go completely virtual with The Live Fully Academy. Now serving women all over the world with her Three F's; Form, Fundamentals and Fun, a new thought leader for Gen X and Millennial women.Known for her open book candor and positive vibe, Joanna proposed to her city that she start a 5K run, it was then the Pumpkin Run 1K/5K/10K Halloween event was born. Her superpower is getting butts in seats, and this run brings 1,500 runners every year with no paid advertisements (a little fun fact for our fellow entrepreneurs). By the time she was 32 she was running four businesses and choosing for her. With learning how to choose herself, she now facilitates other female business owners to do the same.This summer Joanna launched two new podcasts - The Get Up Girl and Dance Your Life. The Get Up Girl is a rally cry for all the women who are different and were taught to choose for others, who are now ready to Get Up and choose for themselves. Dance Your Life is a podcast of dance conversations, for dancers, by dancers and developed to educate dancers all over the world with stories and wisdom.Awarded Woman of the Year Congressional Honor by Congressman Adam Schiff and Woman of the Year Congressional Honor by Judy Chu, Joanna is a well respected female business owner and creator. Named Business of the Year by her city along with many other business awards, Joanna has earned her way to the frontlines of business during times when choosing yourself and the roads less traveled were not celebrated. With the entirety of her career devoted to inspiring her sisters to wake up and live fully, 2020 is poised to be Joanna's biggest year yet. The Get Up Girl is her latest creation to surpass her upper limits and expand energetically to avenues she hasn't discovered yet, and YOU are invited for the ride as she redefines what getting back up really looks and feels like.Transcription:INTRODUCTION:Hello! Oh my God I am so excited that you're here. I am so excited that you are here. This is by far one of my most favorite interviews I've done so far truly love this woman I really can't even wait, I'm gonna dive into her in a second, but first one to say, I am so happy that you're here listening. You know, you could be doing a lot of things right now, and you are listening to this podcast. And I know, it's because you're looking for just a little something to get you through your day something remind you of who you are and why you're here. And it's I'm so grateful that you are taking your time maybe you're in a run or a walk, or doing errands and I'm happy to be in your ears. And if you're watching this on YouTube. Hello! I'm waiving right at you. So, you all, when I, when I think about the different people that I want to speak to, to bring to you. Part of it is my own oh I really want to talk to this person and cause I want to know what's going on their mind. This woman, you'll hear in the interview, but she, she truly changed the way I thought about things in the morning in one day, we we're out of the photoshoot and you'll hear the whole story in the interview so I want to give it away but I'm not kidding. Because of that moment, it changed how I ask questions, what I do and how I approach so many things. And this is what's so fun. You can feel like you're freaking absolutely 100% awesome because you are. And you can feel like you're not and that's okay but you're awesome and I'm so happy you're here so you can hear that reminder from me and the guests but you can feel like you're there. And then there can be this other little like little thing that someone says that like just moves that needle forward in a different way that helps you maybe into the freaking straight ahead you're looking a little bit to the left. And it's like, Oh, there's the thing that's that's the thing that's been missing link. And so, here, let me just edify her cuz she's freaking awesome please look in the show notes for her full for amazing, incredible 100% by out that will just have you going yeah. Wow. She is been awesome since she was a little girl, and maybe it will help you think about your whole life and journey and what got you to where you are right now, when you hear and read her by out. Cause like oh look at all the things that make you who you are. So Joanna Vargas Cradle to Life. A powerhouse entrepreneur right out of school. Joanna never worked corporate and chose the path less travelled. At 20 years old she formed her corporation, took all of her savings, and produced a dance showcase in Hollywood called The King of Pop. With Joanna's quick, some might say crazy work ideas, this venture quickly turned into a dance competition called Max Out which now going on its 20th year. Using keen street smarts, and with no professional business training she created JB dance studio by the time she was 24, and built that business to 700 students. A true serial entrepreneur Joanna sold that dance studio and prepared to design her next download From the Universe. Joanna recognize the gap of compositions about minds in physical form when it came to fitness, and responded with a solution.The Fit Factor Studio while the successful Brick and Mortar Fitness Studio catering to women their minds and living fully. In the process Joanna's own workout philosophy builds on the principles at asking better questions and getting really curious about life, inspire for them make the choice to close the physical doors and go completely virtual with the Live Fully Academy. Now serving women all over the world with the three F's - Form Fundamentals and Fun a new loop thought leader for Gen X and millennial women.Joanna has two new podcast the Get Up Girl and Dance your Life. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I need you to listen to this whole interview she is fire we go all over the place together I feel like we are definitely sisters in a past life, with a lot of fun chatting about different things and I really want to make sure that you hear her tips at the end because she is not just a girl who talks the talk and inspires. She is a girl who has super actionable things that if you start to incorporate your life, even one of these things, I know, it's going to help you prioritize yourself in a different way, and really make sure that you are I mean living flat like she says.So, also, I know that this is the hardest things it's like intro-ing this episodes and not giving away all the things. But I can't even wait for you to hear something she does with one of her friends that I, I swear, I may have to do this with my husband on a monthly basis of a date doing this thing because it's like just such a fun way to look at the future of your life, and I can't even wait for you to listen to that.So with that, we'll be right back for the full interview after this message.-----Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to out yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.EPISODE:Lesley Logan - 06:33Alright, everyone, I have the Joanna Vargas here with us today. And I'm, y'all I'm so grateful. And I met this woman. And we were in a mastermind. There's like 50 people, but we kept getting paired together. And there was something about her that I just wanted to know more about, and the way things worked out. Because even though we both lived in LA at the time, you just don't see people who live in LA. It's like, it's not really like that easy. And so, anyways, right? It's just not like, you're like, Oh, yeah, I live so close. But you'll probably see the people who live out of LA more often than you see those that live in it. And traffic is real. And, and then when the mastermind ended, I really was a bit bummed that I didn't get to know you more. And so we were luckily paired up on this shoot one day with Girl Squad Inc. And you've I don't know if you know, but I was having a really low day that day, it was just not, not my best day. And I texted Monica I said, my higher self, is like not showing up to the shoot. I'm hoping by the time the makeup and clothes, come on that like I'm as she says, I'm gonna be it. But I just want you to know if I'm a little low. That's what's going on. Anyways, there is no way to be low around you. Because you, you just exude love, joy. And, and I know that it's not. It's not always easy to do those things. But you really show up with that energy. And I couldn't help but like, get into it too. And we got to have dinner together. And you told me about 'I wonder' and how does it get better than this? And so, I want to give you a moment to introduce yourself but I just have to share that because as you listen to this, if you're wondering like, what do I love this woman so much. This is you'll you'll know why because I love her since the day that we sat down and I even have a tattoo on my hand. Because of her, because, because you really made me have a possibility to step higher into myself and more into myself. So thank you for being here. Will, you tell people what happened, who you are, and, and how you got to be so awesome.Joanna Vargas - 08:45Lesley, thank you for that. I really appreciate you saying that. And that, we were able to connect that day because I totally get what you said out of 50 people and then you know what a possibility that you and I connected. And I am a born entrepreneur. I've never gone corporate. I started a business as soon as I was 18 years old. I was always very different. So since I was a very young girl, I was always very aware Lesley, but pretending I wasn't. And really pushing and mutilating myself into this form and structure of what this reality says a woman or person is supposed to be. And I, just always felt like just different and awkward. And, as I've become to realize who I am as an entrepreneur, I've fallen in love with myself and I fall in love with the process and the journey and now, I share it with others because what it is it's truly happiness and it does sound cliche, Lesley, like happiness and how the hell do I get it Joanna like, Okay, I get it. And so, what I love to do is actually break it down for people so it's not a Instagram quote tile, it's not a philosophical "think positive" because some girls, I mean, some days, you know, we don't want to freakin' think positive, I want to punch somebody, you know, throw it out. And like then I feel badly, because I'm not thinking positively right. And then I judge the hell out of myself. So that's, that's where I am right now. And still in the entrepreneurial game. I've owned a dance studio, a Fitness Studio, produce large events. And here's the difference, Lesley, I used to only see myself as that person. And now I see myself - I'm not even sure yet. The question now is, who am I? Where before I thought, that's who I was. And that's it. And I was only defined by what I created in this planet. And now it's like, Who am I today? And that's who I am.Lesley Logan - 10:50I mean, so many things that I resonate with in there and I'm sure others do. But I love that you shared so open and honestly about the Who am I? Because that question, I think is it's kind of a detriment. Like, we're all supposed to know who we are. And I think it's so easy to then just put a label on yourself. Right? Like, I'm just a Pilates instructor when I'm not just Pilates instructor and it's like, I'm just a business coach. Well, not just. And so it's that I feel like it's probably a journey, and I'll learn who I am when I'm looking down at the funeral of people talking about who I was.Joanna Vargas - 11:23I love that Lesley. Oh, my gosh, can I jump into a story because just the other night, I was talking to my boyfriend and I totally actualized him as well, we could talk about that as well. And we were talking about, how he had labeled me already. And it was interesting that we had this awareness that I shared something with him early on in the relationship and that he had unconsciously labeled me, that way. And now he's tiptoeing around me not wanting to say something, because I am this person. And I said, look on, I am going to change every day, every five seconds, every five minutes. So ask me a question. Because when you don't ask me a question, you automatically think I'm that same person. And let me tell you, in a year, in 10 years, when I'm 85 years old, I'm going to be so different. Please don't put me in a box and a label. And what I thought, Lesley, was like, Oh, my gosh, I had this big awareness. I've done this to past relationships, men, women, it doesn't matter. You know, romantic, business-wise, I met them. So let's say, Lesley, I met you. And now I go, she was like this on day one. So now she has to be like that every single day for as long as I know her, rather than allowing, having the allowance for her to grow and I'm growing. So, I do that to others. People do that to me. And I'm like, so they met me at 18. And I'm supposed to be the same person I was when I was 18. And so, I really see that we have these expectations on people on relationships, and it's really been in my world lately.Lesley Logan - 13:03That took me back to this time. I remember, I didn't know a lot about who I was yet because I was in college, but I was going back to my hometown. I'm from a very small hometown, and the girls get pregnant, pretty young and married and that's kind of the thing and I like I got out. I mean, if you don't know where I'm from, there's a town called Lodi. Someone wrote a song about it (Joanna Vargas: Lodi!) about Oh Lord, stuck in Lodi again, I cannot, I cannot get stuck in this town. And and so when I came back, I was just about to graduate college. Actually, I was there for graduation. And I was managing a jewelry store. So like here I am, like not even 21 yet and managing a jewel, a high end accessory store in Orange County at South Coast Plaza. Like, in my little town life. I'm like, I've made itJoanna Vargas - 13:50You made it!Lesley Logan - 13:52I've made it. And I was, I was excited to go this graduation because I was going to see people from high school and I was like, Oh my God when they ask like because I grew up very awkward. I did not feel like I belonged in high school. I'm sure everyone thought I did. And we all think we don't belong, right? But I really didn't feel that, for so many reasons. And so here I am. I've made I can't wait to tell people that like, I'm this big time. jewelry store manager right in, in Orange County. I live by the beach. And I see this girl I met in sixth grade. And she has, she's got two kids. It's been three years and I think she's pregnant with a third. And she said, Oh my gosh, Lesley Logan. I said. Hi, you know, and she goes, "What's going on?" And I said, "Oh, like I'm a jewelry store manager in Orange County. I'm going to this college and I got one more year left and live by the beach. It's so fun." And she's like, "Oh that's it?"Joanna Vargas - 14:46We're so cute.Lesley Logan - 14:48It's so funny because like, the labels we put on people, you might think the label you've even put on yourself is like spectacular and it sucks to somebody. So it's just. And then from that moment on, I was like. Whoa, who? What am I trying to do here? And so that just took me back because it's funny. People put labels on us and we can put labels on people or ourselves and it really doesn't do anyone a good job.Joanna Vargas - 15:13Yes, right in a box. what's right, what's wrong? It's like, it's exhausting. Oh my gosh, that's a great story. It's really cool.Lesley Logan - 15:23I was like, oh, okay, that was like my little, little angel going, "Sit down, girl. You're not there yet. We got things to do." Um, so, I, you know, you say you're a born entrepreneur. And this is something that I think is is really cool because you know, everyone look in the show notes her bio is freaking awesome, inspirational. What what she has done? What, what do I mean? I'm sure people to have these stories. But when they're little kids, and they like sold lemonade, like, what was it that made you want to be an entrepreneur at 18? Did you know what it was?Joanna Vargas - 15:55Yeah, I had already started when I was gosh, six or seven. I used to go to my neighbors' houses and pick their avocados from their trees and put it in my little red radio flyer. And then I would go back to their house Lesley and sell it back to them for like 50 cents. I was just a hustler. I was a little hustler before J Lo was a hustler. And I but I didn't realize what I was doing. I was always creating, Lesley, whatever it was, I was going to create something. Like, oh, I'm gonna sell this. I used to go, we used to go to Mexico, we were a little kid, you know, like, go to TJ and then I begged my mom, and I always I knew how to sell, I could even sell to my Mom. Mom, please buy me these bags of candies, because I'm going to go, and then I'm going to sell them for 25 cents, and I had the whole thing. So I would sell her, then I would go to school and sell them to my friends. And then I would do lemonade stands. But here's the thing, I would always want to out create what I did before. Like, okay, those kids did eliminate standard, what I'm going to do is I'm going to add a lemon wedge, and I'm going to add a straw. I used to do things like that. And I'm and then Lesley, I used to get a smaller cup. And I was doing this not even realizing, how I was out creating what I did yesterday. If I make a smaller cup, I could sell it for five cents, because it's less but I know people are going to tip me and give me a $1. But if I say it's 50 cents, they'll probably give me 50 cents. My brain was already starting to move things around like chess that way. And, and then in high school, I was just always wanting to, to create, that's the best way I can describe it. I wanted to create, I wanted to create, if I wasn't creating, I was bored to death. And when I was bored, Lesley, I would create drama in my life. And I know a lot of us on this planet. As humans, we create drama, because we're bored. But we don't know we're bored. So we'll create stuff, just like stupid stuff. I still do it till today, like my money situations, I'll create drama with my money, just so I'm entertained with my money because my credit cards are here. And this is like what are you doing, Joanna, because you're so bored. Because I can do 10 million things at once. But, I was always taught, Lesley, not to do 10 million things. Focus on one thing, you should do this. And like I said at the beginning, when he asked me I'm like I was always different. I can always do 10 million things. And now I've really fallen in love with that I can do a lot of things and that I can work last minute and that I am a procrastinator, and I do work better when I'm a procrastinator. So what it's what I'm doing, Lesley, is I'm taking reality and I'm flipping it upside down. And it's like, everything is opposite. Everything is opposite. Everything is opposite. Everything is opposite. And let me tell you, when you do that, it Fs with your brain. It really does. It's like brain bombs. Like what, because we're so programmed, that procrastination is bad. And then when you live and go, I'm an amazing procrastinator, and I'm gonna rock the hell out of this. It really messes with your brain. So that's what I've been playing with. I know this is really left field, but I'm not sure if that's where you want to go.Lesley Logan - 19:18No, I love it. I'm loving left field. I'm left handed.Joanna Vargas - 19:23Okay, so let's go there.Lesley Logan - 19:25So but I, here's what I, what I love about this is like, you know, I think we are told something and so if we do it differently, even if it's working, we're questioning if I should be doing it that way we're saying I know I'm not supposed to doing it this way, I'm not supposed to procrastinating and it's like I too procrastinate on purpose very well. Right, like I, I, I find that the I know that I have to do the thing. And the thing is on my mind and because it's on my mind. It's in there and it's percolating. It's coming up with things and then I'm exposing myself to other things. And I'm like, okay, it's due on Tuesday. And I know for a week it's due. But I'm the life I'm living between now. And when it's due, it all affects it. And so, you know, I definitely wouldn't write a 50 page paper the night before I've done that. It's not pleasant. But, um, you know, my team is like the news they want the newsletters due a week before, this is my team, right? My husband and all of them. They're very organized. They're very detailed people. So all the due dates are a week before everything. And I've told them. You will get it two days before, because that's when it's due to me. And so I, I know that it's there. But the difference is like, whether I let the procrastination stress me out or inspire, right, and I think that what you are doing, Joanna, is that you've just been like, I'm gonna question everything I was ever told is wrong. And I'm going to explore how I can make it right. Because I'm different. I'm, I'm Joanna and no one can be me. And so I think that's really cool. If you're listening this, it's, you know, maybe you can only focus on one thing at a time. That's okay. But do it if that's because you know, that, that's what you can do. And not because someone told you that.Joanna Vargas - 21:06Yes. Oh, Lesley, because then we'll use the tools against us. Well, Joanna said procrastination is better. I'm like, no, no. What I, what I would like to say is, I'm saying everything is a question. Everything is choice. Everything is choice. And when we believe that we don't have choice, then we become small. And so I'm not saying that I always procrastinate. I'm saying I ask a question and go, you know what it feels like to procrastinate right now. And even that word feels like icky to me, but it's the best word I can use to describe the energy that I'm trying to say. Right? But really, what it just means is, I just do it when I do it. That's, that's what it really means to me. The word procrastination, I choose to do it, when I want to do it. That's it. It's almost like food. People go, what's your diet? What do you eat? And I'm like, I just eat when I'm hungry. That's it. It's real simple. I just eat, I asked my body what it wants, I eat when I'm hungry. And that's real. It's, it's really that simple. You know, and I'm not judging the hell out of a piece of food. Because there's just so much judgment on this planet. Like everything is a judge-able, judge-able, judge-able thing. We're gonna judge this, this is right. This is wrong. This is black. This is white. This is up. This is down. This is left. This is right. It's like, Oh, my gosh, what if it's all of it. And my word for this year, Lesley, I have my little my intent bracelet is the word "And". I've really been obsessed and like in love with this word. "And" because "and" for me is abundance. I am nice and I'm a bitch. I am beautiful and I could be really ugly. You know, I am so sweet and sometimes I could be a fire breathing dragon, you know, and there's no right or wrong. It's all a choice, Lesley, of what's going to create more for that moment. So here's a little story. A couple days ago, I was having a little quarrel with my boyfriend. And we were communicating and talking about, you know, what just happened. And I asked, "What's going to create more right now?" And the awareness that I got was me throwing a tantrum, was going to create a lot. And I did I threw a tantrum, I was on the phone, I was cursing I was I'm like, I'm pissed off. I'm so, I'm so annoyed. And I'm so bitter, and I threw a magical tantrum. We hung up. And the next day there was so much drama created out of that tantrum. But I could have looked at it and judged it and go. No, Joanna, you should not throw a tantrum, or only two year olds throw tantrums, etc, etc. But there's no right or wrong. There was no judging on it. It was just what's going to create more. And a lot of times we judge things, let's say for example, because of the pandemic right now, we judge the virus. I don't want to get the virus because it's bad. And I wonder if the question is 'what's going to create more right now?' And sometimes I wonder if you got the virus will it create more for you? I've known people that got the virus and they made changes in their life and it actually created more for them. Like the planet, us, having this pandemic has created more for the planet in weird ways and crazy ways, but it's created so much. Do you get what I'm saying? But if we look at it is wrong or right? What can it create? Right?Lesley Logan - 24:22Because you're you're definitely saying like if we look at this tantrum as bad and you shouldn't have a tantrum anymore, you're actually taking away the lessons that you could learn from the tantrum. So maybe, yes, you don't have to have as big of a tantrum next time or the have the tantrum next time. But to judge the tantrum, you discount all that you get from it. And it's true. Like, I mean, there's so much interesting things about I think people really don't, don't often see how things are happening for them. And it is terrible. I hate that at this point of recording this like half a million people have lost their lives to this and, and but because of COVID my entire business has changed in a way that is for me. (Joanna Vargas: Yeah) You know, and, and I think it goes back to what you were saying is choice. Instead of sitting back and going. Oh my gosh, 60% of my business for the year is canceled. I guess I'll just teach virtually still. And I just will wait till this is over. Instead of taking that, and being like, Well, what can I do? Like asking the question I and I, while you're talking about judgment, it made me think like judgment is a period and you are so like a question mark to life. Like, you're always questioning life. And when you judge you put a period on it, and our brains like closed loops, so they will just take that judgment in and they're like, that's it. But you were the one who really reminded me about how amazing open loops are, which is why I have 'I wonder' on my hand, because I, it's so easy for me from the way I was raised. I was not raised by entrepreneurs, no one in my family really is. So having this. Having this open loop, I can think about it. Like, I wonder how I'm going to do this right now. I'm like, Oh, we can't, we can't travel anymore. So nothing we can do for this business is going to happen. Well, what can I do? And it's funny, when you just put that out there, your brain starts thinking about things. But the period on that would have just, I would still be in a 500 square foot apartment. Probably, looking at my laptop, sitting on my bed because we didn't even have a table - there was no room. So I just really love that you. You talk about judgment, and you're and you're seeing the the appreciation and the positivity and the, and the possibilities. And all the things whether they are in air quotes, good or bad. I think that's really cool.Joanna Vargas - 26:38Lesley, I love that way that you said a period. Yeah, it's putting the end to the book. If when you answer something. Because our brains are not that smart, we think they are. But actually, infinite intelligence is way more, has way more possibilities than what our brains can put on. And what our brains do is they put a period, and they conclude. So whenever our brain wants answers, and when we're willing to not have the answer, and to have the awareness because answers and awareness are different. And some people say intuition. And for me, the word awareness is a little more lighter. But awareness is like you knowing. Animals have awareness. Animals are the most aware on this planet. They function from awareness. Like there could be a rabbit and rabbits won't mate if they know that there's going to be, like a drought coming. So they won't mate. Right? They already can feel it. And I wonder as humans, do we have that same awareness that animals have, like in Thailand, remember what the big tsunami back so many years ago, and so many animals went to high ground a day, days before the tsunami? That's awareness. Right?Lesley Logan - 27:59Right. That's insaneJoanna Vargas - 28:00Right. And I'm like saying it right. I mean, that's so cool. I am so intrigued by that. I'm like, Oh, my God, it's amazing. Elephants that had been chained down, you know, in Thailand, they use elephants and for, for fun anyway. But they had left the chains and walked away. Everybody's like, "Where are these animals going?" That's awareness. And I'm like, so the question for me, Lesley, is how much more awareness can I have? And like I said, at the beginning, I'm like, I was always so aware as a young girl, but I was pretending I wasn't. And so that's why I always kind of felt disconnected from this world. Because I was so aware. Like, I always knew stuff. But I'm like, nobody else knows this. I'm the only one. So then I thought I was the weirdo.Lesley Logan - 28:44So I and I love this. I want to go back to this. And because I too, I think I was totally forget thinking I wasn't aware. But it's because it's not, it wasn't cool to be aware. It wasn't cool to stand out. It still isn't cool. I have a client who's I think she's 16 now and, you know, we're talking about something and she said, "Yeah, but you know, the other kids in school don't like that. Whatever it is, and I just want to be the only one out." And I was like, "It's okay to be the only person out and you need to know that I'm not saying this is the time you choose that don't you know, you listen to you, but someone needs to tell you that it's so okay to be the only person who disagrees with something because I wish I had known that I wish I had disagreed more I think I would have I would have learned more from that." That, that tension. And then then I did and just like going with the flow and like pretending I didn't know that I was aware that I had uniqueness around things but a unique way of thinking about things and, and, you know, in business I everybody who's listening is probably thinking, yeah, but someone's already doing that. They might even look at you and I go I want to do it. They're they're already doing it. And it's like actually like, you can do it because you're so unique. Like you can't put that away what you were telling that story about the lemonade. You're like, Okay, well they did that, but I'm gonna have a straw and I'm gonna have a smaller cup, like you're finding unique ways to stand out. And so I just I think that I wish more girls specifically knew that it was okay to, to actually like to be unique.Joanna Vargas - 30:17I love that you said that Lesley, because what came up for me is that the planet, okay? Does not think that way. For example, weeds will grow and they don't go, well, I'm not going to grow because that weed is higher, weeds just grow, or a bird doesn't wake up in the morning and go, well, I don't feel like chirping today cuz that bird is chirping louder, like, the planet doesn't see that. Let's look at Mother Earth, Mother Earth is infinite. If you look, she will just keep growing and growing and growing. And just she will change she will move and change and do whatever she needs to do in order to keep creating. But as humans, we don't do that. Right. And I wonder what else is possible for us as humans to to watch the planet and go wow, like I just look at nature. And I'm like, wow, how can I be more like that tree? And I know that might sound airy fairy? All good. But do they know something? Animals know something? I look at dogs. And I'm like, wow, how can it be more like a dog? Where they're just like, whatever, they have no point of view. And that's why people love them. Right? Okay, but and this is another thing. For my parents that are listening or even, you know, non parents a great question to ask somebody that feels stuck. Like, you know, when you have a girlfriend, you're talking to her whatever, and she's just stuck or your kids are stuck, or your client that's 16 is stuck. A great question is, so what do you know? What do you know about this? And you'll see, like, people's brains are like that. They're like, what do you mean? What do you mean? What do I know? What do you mean? But we're gonna start to uncreate that we don't know. Like, what do you what do you know? I remember the first time I was asked that question, and I was like. What do you mean? My logical brain was so fixated on wanting to, you know, punch that person that was asking me because I didn't know at that moment. I was so logically trained. And I was a very good little girl, even though I was in my 30s, when I was asked this question, but I was still, I'm good. Don't tell me that I know stuff. Because I don't know this. And I need the answer. And I'm paying you to give me the answer. I was very stuck on that. So I get it. And the more that I get curious, I'm like, Yeah, what do I know here? Because, Lesley, I think as we're young children are, we're brought up we're brought up not to know, our parents know everything. We and then we grow up and we're like, our parents don't know everything. I think that's why as teenagers, we get pissed off. Like I was a 12-13 year old brat, I was a horrible brat. And I really look back and I'm like, what was that? Joanna? What was? What was that bratness? And I really think because I thought that my parents knew everything. They were Superman and Superwoman. And then I'm like, oh, they're human. They don't know everything. But they're still telling me what to do. So I didn't know how to how to articulate it. So what I knew to do was to be a rebel back and roll my eyes and give attitude. But it was because I knew that I knew stuff. But everybody's looking at me like I don't. You're a child. You're dumb. Be quiet. Find the answers.Lesley Logan - 33:29Me, I feel like that's one of the definitions of going crazy, like. Right? Like that. Like, I love this observation. I'm sure there's like a child therapist out there going. Ha! We might have just solved all teenage angst.Joanna Vargas - 33:41Oh, oh, yes!Joanna Vargas - 33:43That's simple. I know!Lesley Logan - 33:46But, you know, you're I, I want to go into that word, curiosity, because I do and I remember wanting to make changes happen in my business and pretending like I didn't know and like thinking. Okay, if I just buy this next course, then I'm going learn the thing. And the being so disappointed in the course because I'm like, I did that already. Like I did. And it didn't work.Joanna Vargas - 34:07And it's your fault. And I wasted my money.Lesley Logan - 34:11And, and I'm, and I mean, I remember I was even in a mastermind, and everyone was like, giving me my own advice back on how to make more time and I'm like, Yeah, no, I know that. That's the advice I have in my course. But it's, I can't do that right now. And then I was like, I think I got a super frustrated the fact you know, you get frustrated enough, you're gonna figure it out. Because you're like, I'm so tired of being this frustration. I'm choosing to live in it. So let's figure this out. But I don't know when it was that I was like, I heard 'be more curious' or the word curiosity again, it's not like it goes away, but you kind of just become aware of it. And I'm like, I need to be a little bit more curious. What if I don't know. You know, what if I, what if I, what if I don't like, what if it isn't this answer, what if it's another thing and and using those awareness, like talent. And I remember hearing like, you know, if you can be the thing that you want to be, what would that thing? What would that person do? And I was like, what would I do if I was already where I wanted to be, and making changes, and that is when, I mean, it is not abundance. It wasn't like endless things, but it was enough ideas that my brain didn't know. It's like, oh, look what I do know. Now, look what I do know about that. And I just got stuck on that. And so I really, I really love that you talked about, Joanna, like curiosity, and, and, and coming up with these questions, because I really, I think that we, we pretend people don't know enough. So we tell them, they don't know enough, then they believe that they don't know enough. And then they're stuck. And then they go back to the people who still told them they don't know enough. And so I think as, as, as listeners, like, who do you know, that needs that question? Who do you know in your life that needs to be asked? So what do you know, right now? What do you know? I would I would challenge everyone to go do that. I want to check because I'm in love with something of that you. You did with a friend. Can you tell us about the Remember When?Joanna Vargas - 36:10Yeah, there's this game that I play, I have some girlfriends that know it. And it's called Remember When, and we'll just sit there. And we'll just drink coffee or sometimes just some wine. And we just say remember when and we talk about things in the past as if they've already happened. So last summer, I was sitting at the park with a girlfriend we're like, Hey, remember when you're at my wedding, she's like, Oh my gosh, and we will give details. Remember when I made that toast, and then I fell on my dress and we just start laughing, we will tell the most detailed stories. Oh my gosh, remember when we went to Vegas, and we had that phenomenal bachelorette party. And then we got free food and we didn't have to pay for anything that whole night. And then she'll come in and go. Yeah, remember when we took that helicopter, we will go on and on. Remember when that guy he came and he just spoiled the heck out of me. Another thing we do is we'll send text to each others. And we'll say, why are men so great to me? Why do men treat me like queens? Why do men buy me whatever? Like just on and on? And I'm like, Oh, yeah, why? Why is it? And then the universe will show you why men are so good do or you could say. Why are my clients just given me so much money because of nothing? And then she'll text me? Yeah. Why are they? So we're already thinking and asking a question of true curiosity. And as if it already happened. And so what find somebody out there, then you can play this game with because not everybody will get it right. And the ones that do get it, text message. Have a little session, a little zoom session get together. I really truly, it's so fun and make a game like little kids play Lesley. Right?Lesley Logan - 37:57This is, this is my mind is not the right word. But like, it makes me giddy because I meet so many people, you know, the typical goals. Coaching thing is to like think about your future. 10 years out five years out, and so many people if you're stuck, like I get it, you cannot think out that far. You're like. No, I am not paying the bills today, I cannot think at that point, you don't think big enough. And what I love about this is it's playful. And it's fun. And because of that you're willing to go into those big places that your like your true soul wants to have. And it's going to give you instead of like where you really want to go because jokes are all half truths, right? Or they're like, they're like, you know, so like, that's what's really fun for me. And I mean with technology. What a fun game on Marco Polo, we're like, (Joanna Vargas: Oh yeah!) we're not getting paid for this ad but like, like, I just love, like, you could be on your workday. And instead of having to wait for your friend to actually be free, you could video them and go, Okay, remember when I met the man of my dreams, and now we to get like, and then they can come back? And they and it's just this conversation that keeps on going and what it, what it comes back to the whole asking your brain questions because it's like open loops. We see evidence for what we believe to be true. And thoughts become facts, right? So they become beliefs. And so you're putting out into the universe something that you want to be true. And then you start looking for that evidence. Instead of texting the friend like we all have done like. Oh, why is everyone such a flake to me? And so then you only see flakes?Joanna Vargas - 39:28Yes. Because we want to be right. Let's get real. Everything we will do, Lesley so that we can be right. Just the other day, I went to this chiropractor, and it's a long story. But one of one of the things in order to get to this chiropractor was, I was fighting myself not to go. So what happened was the girl at the front had my email wrong. They messed up the times. I was supposed to be there, like, all these things were happening to make me right. So I didn't have to go, you get what I'm saying. And I was I was that horrible client there. I know they were already talking about me because when I came in, he's a healer, right? And he said, Joanna, you need to let stuff go. He's like, you were already being difficult to book you hear for this, for this appointment. And then everything in my body, Lesley, wanted to defend why I was difficult to book that appointment. And again, because I want it to be right. And it's been bugging me ever since. And I'm like, Joanna, what is that? What is it that you want to be right? What is the lie here? There's a lie here. And the lie is not him. The lie is that I always have to be right. And it doesn't matter what's going to happen regardless, you know? So anyway, we will create stuff like you said, we will find the evidence to make us right. And I was finding evidence not to go to this appointment, even though it was the best thing for me, but I was fighting it. Right. And well, and then because what we want to say, Lesley is, see, I told you, see I told you I was that that guy was a jerk. See, I told you I shouldn't have gotten to that chiropractor, right?Lesley Logan - 41:11Oh my god, I love this story. Because I didn't, I thought of like four different times in my life where I've definitely not wanted to do something and I'm like, "and their Zoom link is wrong. This is wrong. And now they're wasting my time."Joanna Vargas - 41:23I told you!Lesley Logan - 41:26And it's like, and it's so funny. Because if you can take a moment just to like, Okay, I'm here now, like, for whatever reason, this is happening for me? What can I learn from this? When I can have the awareness to do it, I'm always shocked and surprised. And some of my favorite people in life are from like, things that I like, like literally fought like a two year old to not do and I'm like, Oh my god, I'm so embarrassed. I could never tell that.Joanna Vargas - 41:50Isn't that interesting, Lesley? Even this new doctor, he's like, my favorite person now on this planet. But man, it took me a year and a half to book this appointment, Lesley, because I was thinking about it. And then, I was like, going through again, the loop that you said the period it was like, No, no, no, finally, I book it and everything. And it wasn't because I could have used the tools against me, Lesley, I could have said, See, it's not meant to be I shouldn't go right. And we do that to ourselves. Remember, I said let's flip everything upside down. So a lot of times in the metaphysical world in the spiritual world will say, See, it's not meant to be I shouldn't go to this, which I call B.S., where we're creating this, I was creating this drama, not to go because it was more pricey. This is this guy is not cheap, right? So my logical brain was like, how can I get out of this? How can I out create this because I don't really want to spend the money. And that was the truth. That was the lie. The lie I was telling myself was the money part. But I was telling myself that it was about him. And the front desk girl. So that was the lie. And so I wanted to make myself right. Anyway, so that I mean. That's all.Lesley Logan - 42:59There's so many, there's so many things in there that I generally I'm like, Oh my God, we could talk about for hours, because I think it's so funny what we will say when it's just to avoid the truth, which is like, there's probably fear and like, what are you going to find out, you know, but like, I, I try, I try to be very aware of like, the top five fears that are out there. And like I'm like, which one am I, which one am I doing right now because like, you know, like that is on a good day. You know, we all have days where like, I'm leaning into this fear so hard. I'm just gonna enjoy wallowing in it but, um, but it's, it's, it's just something that it's so important that everyone hears this from women like yourself for me, but, but people who are going every day after their dreams, like the honesty about it, but you said something about obstacles. And it's true, I would hear people say, Oh, it's a sign. Like, this is a sign. And I, I want I want to say that I like loved believing in signs. And I do think there are signs but I think we, we look for signs for which we want to see the signs for so you can't you can't believe all the signs you see. Because you are looking for evidence to prove yourself right. And whatever your self is showing up. Like it might be the self that is like, like, like telling you you're not gonna make it and you're like, Oh, look at this sign or like, That thing's not gonna work. I could have seen COVID as the sign that like, like, this isn't gonna work. And instead, like, I just was like, Okay, how is this happening for me? What have I been asking for? I've been asking for time. I've been asking for time. Okay, so next time more specific. I would like more time where the rest of the world doesn't suffer. That would be awesome. So next time I'll be more specific. I would like to have more time and a runway of income. But what did I want to have more time for? Okay, this and so it's so I think obstacles are actually not signed at all. They are, they show me how much I want to fight for something. I'm willing to like, take out that obstacle that I must really want and if I I take the obstacle as Oh, that's it. That's as far as we go. Well then, I didn't want it enough. And like, at least you're finding out now like, good. Like, it's good to know sooner before you like, invest more time into it, right?Joanna Vargas - 45:12Damn, Lesley, this is good. I mean, we're like, whoever's listening right now play this on repeat, because this is good.Lesley Logan - 45:17I feel like we're listening to this myself. And I need to remember.Joanna Vargas - 45:22Yes, yeah. Because we will use the tools against us. I see it all the time. Joanna does feels heavy, so I'm not going to choose it. Just because it feels heavy. Like when it doesn't feel good. Like, no, no. What's the lie here? There's a lie that you're telling yourself a lie. That's the truth? That's a great question. What's the lie here? Now that one's like a whole other question. Because our brains like what do you mean? What's the lie? What's the lie? What's the lie? Don't worry about it. It will show up. You know?Lesley Logan - 45:50Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's, there's, it's, it's just so it's so good. It's so good. Um, I, I mean, obviously, we can talk for hours. So we'll have to do this again, for many reasons. So if you are listening, you have more questions you want us to take on in life? Let us know, drop it in my comments. And I'll make sure that we, we address it on another talk. Because I mean, we could almost have her own panel. And yes, I'm dreaming up something right now, wouldn't it be cool if we had a panel?Joanna Vargas - 46:21Of conscious conversations? Yeah, like taking things that are out there and just flipping them and making them different? Because I think right now, the conversations we're having our limiting, they're great. And what else can we create? I think they still have a cap right now of most of the conversations that are being created.Lesley Logan - 46:40Yeah, I love that I, before I, before I met, Brad, I was like, in this Limbo of life, I left my ex and I was there was a homeless period, which is not my first time being homeless. So that's a whole other story, but I had some one of my clients paid for me to have like a birth chart reader. And let me tell you, like, part of me was like, You spent how much on this person instead of like, giving me the money? I'm literally living on my credit card. But I went to listen to, I listened to this person tell me, we had an hour and he said, I'm looking at your chart. And I just want you to know you've gone as far as you can by yourself. (Joanna Vargas: Wow.) You cannot there's you you can do things on your own. You are powerful enough to do things on your own. But you will what you what you have achieved to this point. This is, this is the life you will be living if you decide to go things alone. And so he's like, what opportunities do you have to partner up with people? I'm not saying you partner up in business, but what opportunities do you have? And so that's when I like, had a dating blog with a friend. And I had I started doing all these different anything I could partner up and like going to art places like just not going alone, right. And I'm an outgoing introvert, ya'll, so it's like super easy for me to go to things alone. Somebody was listening to a podcast today, but they go well, she's a high functioning introvert. And I'm like, oh, what's an interesting way of putting it! Yes, that's me. Yes, yeah. So So I was like, I took that. And I was like, Okay, so I'm actually limiting myself by not being open and aware. And so, and so I know, I'm on this journey, where I'm meeting these amazing women, someone like you, I can go, Oh, this is why I was supposed to because if I had just tried to do this on my own, I wouldn't have joined a mastermind I wouldn't have partnered, I definitely would not have like, let my husband helped me with my business. Like, no, I can do it alone. And, and it's just so it's important for us to like continue to ask questions, but like, where are we holding ourselves back? What are we doing that limit ourselves? I love you. I love these questions that you have put into our minds today.Joanna Vargas - 48:44Lesley, I got that. Like I heard it right now. Oh, my gosh, I have the goosebumps. I received from what you just said. I heard, Joanna. Oh, my gosh, how can you partner up, you've hit how much you've done by yourself. Oh, my gosh, thank you. I really appreciate that. Because I heard it. Wow.Lesley Logan - 49:03Oh, and now I have chills. And I'm about to cry. So we're gonna do this. Remember when? Remember when we had this amazing women's panel. And we brought all these women together? And we talked about how they could turn things on their heads and find something and where they see a period and actually put a question mark on it?Joanna Vargas - 49:20And Lesley, remember when Oprah reached out to us and she wanted us on her super soul? Now I cried when Oprah reached out that wasn't so much fun.Lesley Logan - 49:30I know because we also to say we're so busy actually. So can we do it on a different day? And Oprah was like, Yeah, I have to move my schedule around for you.Joanna Vargas - 49:39Because Oprah knew we were. That amazing!Lesley Logan - 49:42Oh my gosh. So, Joanna this will not be our last time chatting into the ears of people but where can people find you? Now if they because they're gonna want to like just learn so much from you and absorb as much as they can.Joanna Vargas - 49:55Please follow me on Instagram at I'm at JoannaVargasOfficial and I do free 30 day challenges and I go live every day. And Lesley, I'm going live every day for the full year. And every month is a different challenge. And I really got the awareness because one of the questions was, what can I create this year? What can I do? And I got the awareness too. In order for me to shift, Lesley, I got to do this for a full year. Like, like how you just said, you're limiting yourself by doing it by yourself. What I received was Joanna, you're limiting yourself by doing it for a month. If you do it for a year. This is gonna, this is gonna stretch the hell out of you.Lesley Logan - 50:35Okay, I, I can't wait. I, I see. Because here's the thing. I'm on my phone in the morning when you go live.Joanna Vargas - 50:41Do you see? Joanna's live and like, there she is again!Lesley Logan - 50:45I say it, that the day 26 journal is and this is me. I'm like, I'm gonna wait till the next one. I want to start at the beginning, which is so dumb. So tomorrow, I'm just gonna start with you. Oh my gosh, so y'all, please follow Joanna at JoannaVargasOfficial in Instagram, tell her how much you love her and what you got from this, you can screenshot this podcast, and you can tag us on Instagram. And let us know what you got from it, we would love to hear because I, I know that it's, it just takes some a word that brings it to your attention that can change and pivot and put you on a trajectory that you that you were supposed to be on this whole time. So if we did that, we want to hear about it. So we could just congratulate you and cheer you on. Like that's all we just want to like, give you a high five virtually. So thank you for being here. I love you. I really, really love you.Joanna Vargas - 51:33And Lesley, I'd like to acknowledge you because you're one of those people in my life now that I can really create with and I'm excited to see what's going to be created. And to everybody listening. I want to acknowledge you for having a new possibility, like something shifted in our conversation today. And I want to acknowledge us for that.Lesley Logan - 51:54I know. I know. If there's something really big about to happen. (Joanna Vargas: Yeah) Another big thing for us. Yeah. (Joanna Vargas: Yeah). Thank you for saying that. Thank you.Joanna Vargas - 52:04Thanks everybody!Lesley Logan - 52:11There we go.---Lesley LoganThat's all I've got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast!One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review.And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts.Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at be_it_pod! Share this episode with who ever you think needs to hear it.Help us help others to be it till you see it by leaving a 5 star review and sharing this episode with that person who just popped into your mind.Until next time remember to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT!---Lesley Logan‘Be It Till You See It' is a production of ‘As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad CrowellIt's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley LoganKevin and Bel at Disenyo handle all of our audio editing and some social media content.Brad CrowellOur theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley LoganSpecial thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all the video each week so you can.Brad CrowellAnd to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy