Podcasts about 32i

2 Corinthians 5:16-21; Luke 15:11b-32I have come to believeThat it's harder to cry under an open sky.So when life falls apart, throw open the windows.Invite the sun into your shadows.Lie in the grass and let the sun mistake you for flowers.Maybe this is step one in cultivating—For flowers do not grow by mistake.They need the sun, just like we need love,And time,And the grace to try again.So put your body where the light is.You'll find God there.She is warmth.You will know it.And you will feel strong.So put your body where the light is.Maybe this is step one.-SEEKING PRESENCE CULTIVATE

0:14Good morning, good morning, good afternoon.0:15How are you doing out there in the world?0:18And well, this is a revamp of prepare responder covers program we put on last two, oh, guess two years ago, right, We started with it.0:29I'm looking into all different aspects of what it is to respond to large scale emergencies and not just Emergency Management. Still, we're looking at law, fire, EMS, private industry, public side of things.0:47It's a broad brush.0:49And so I'm excited.0:51And so Todd and I, Todd Manzat is the 2 Todd's here.0:55Start talking about it, what it is and, and, and you know, he's got some really great insight.1:01I've known Todd for a while now.1:04And as you can tell here, the Blue Cell is the premier sponsor of this program.1:08And so I want to thank Todd for that.1:10And Todd, welcome.1:11Welcome to our show, I guess, for lack of better term.1:14Hey, well, thanks, thanks for the welcome.1:16And, you know, it was, it was kind of funny as we were kind of batting this around at the end of last year and, you know, here we are now getting ready to kind of jump right into it.1:29But certainly the world's events have helped us to have at least some stuff to talk about in the last 30 days.1:38It feels like it's April already.1:40And I know we'll get into a little bit of that.1:42But thanks for having me.1:43I'm glad to be part of it.1:46I think this is the longest January I've ever lived, Right?1:53Well, it's, you know, in some ways we're thinking back a little bit to, you know, what's going on.1:58I was in New Orleans this week and the events of New Year's Eve are in the distant past when they're worried about the Super Bowl.2:06They had a snowstorm and they had a a Sugar Bowl.2:09And it's, it's really interesting that the tempo right now is as real as it gets with regards to, you know, what we are going to be talking about here, you know, interested about that.2:22It's like, you know, obviously the, the events of January 1st with both New Orleans and Vegas, how quickly it came out of, out of the news cycle because you know, fires happened in, in, in California, you know, and that kept us hopping over here.2:40You know, obviously you guys all know that I live in, well, maybe not everybody, but I, I live in Southern California.2:46And so those fires directly impacted my area, not necessarily where I live, but close enough to where I have friends that lost homes and stuff in the fire.2:57So, I mean, and then then we got rain right after that, which is causing problems.3:03And then there's snow storms in in Louisiana in the South that's causing problems there.3:07And we're still not recovering from Hurricane Helene, You know, And then in the midst of all this, we get a new presidential administration, which is definitely moving fast, you know, And yeah, so are, are we going to be able to take your breath?3:28Well, you know, I don't know that we have a choice, right?3:30It's that kind of race.3:32And, you know, being as ready as we can be in different places, that's kind of part of it.3:38So that the folks who are sprinting as fast as they can can be relieved.3:41And one of the things that was interesting when I was in, in Louisiana this past week, they were talking about barring snow plows from another state.3:49Who, who does know how to do that, you know, pretty interestingly.3:52And then obviously, unfortunately, the events in DC with the, with the plane crash as the, you know, the most recent thing, another really, you know, significant type of event and response.4:09Just hearing, you know, some of the press conference stuff where they're talking about, you know, the things that, you know, I teach all the time, Unified command 300 responders out there.4:21Got to replace those responders.4:23Got a lot going on, got a lot of media, right.4:26All those aspects of something that makes any kind of response a little more complex.4:34Definitely it's going to be a a fun filled year of topics if we stay at this at this pace for sure.4:44Yeah, I want to talk about that plane crash here for forbid, not not about the plane crunch itself, but about how as a those of us in the field, you know, I know a whole bunch of people that are traveling at any given time.5:01I mean, you're one of them, a couple of friends down in Texas.5:05You have a friend of mine who carries Fronza, who's the president of IEM, who she was travelling during this time.5:13And I went to my, my, my click box of, oh, who do I need?5:17Who do I need to call to see if they're impacted by this?5:20And even if it's something as far away as DC, you know, and now you're going, oh, crap.5:25I mean, I called you or at least reached out to you to see if you know if you're travelling yet.5:30So you don't.5:30It's just this is amazing, like how small of a world we truly are when it comes to that.5:36And then I have friends that work and you do too, Todd, you know, that work in the capital that a part of Metro and and and DC fire and Fairfax fire.5:46And you know, you, you see this happening.5:48You're going, these are people who you know closely that are already impacted by this event, let alone the tragedy of the those lives that were lost, you know, in this tragic accident.6:01And I think that's part of the thing with what we do here between you and myself and, and the, and the organizations that, you know, we do touch every aspect of, of the United States and at some point global when it comes to Emergency Management, We're going to be able to bring those, that perspective to, to the this conversation.6:24Yeah.6:24I think the, the other thing that kind of jumped out at me was, you know, trying to think back through the history and, and certainly some of the legacy media folks were talking about the last time we had a crash and how long ago it was.6:38And in fact, I don't know if you picked up on it.6:41That last one was Buffalo and obviously Buffalo, NY.6:46You've got connections to that place, right?6:48Yeah, yeah, right.6:52And I'm headed to Binghamton, NY next Friday, which is not that far down the road.6:57So it's, you know, to bring it somewhat full circle, preparedness, response and recovery are interconnected.7:05All these disciplines are interconnected.7:09How we do things, we're trying to make them as interconnected, you know, as possible.7:17And I think it's going to be the right conversation, especially when we bring some doctrinal things in and and talking about some specific topics and then trying to overlay it to things that are really happening.7:31I think that's going to be one of the unique things about the conversation, hopefully, as we move the show forward.7:38Yeah, absolutely.7:39And I think the other thing too, Todd, that you know, you and I have some really deep conversations, you know, when it comes to the state of Emergency Management, the state of disaster response, you know, where where we need to go and how to get there.7:57And you know, the fact that we have a kind of book in this thing here, but we have progressive states that look at Emergency Management and disaster response and disaster preparedness and planning as holistic, right?8:13So that means like fire, police, EMS, public works, right, that we always forget, you know, public health, they're all involved in the conversation.8:23And then you have some States and somewhere areas that are myopic, right?8:27And they're very much silos on everything they they do.8:30I think some of the conversation that we're going to have here is hopefully to break down those silos and and be able to have those full conversations that we are all hazards approach to everything that we look at.8:42And I think that's critical, right?8:45And I think also in the, you know, our show concept, and I think it's important to share, you know, in this first episode, it won't just be me and you hanging out with each other.8:55I think our concept of bringing in guests as a, a third element to the show, a third voice, I think will be important.9:04I know you're working on lining up a few.9:06I'm working on lining up a few.9:08It'll be exciting.9:09And, you know, as we move into the coming weeks to get that guest line up out to folks and they can kind of hear a perspective and we'll definitely, you know, be leveraging our relationships.9:21I think to to bring in some strong, strong individuals to give a dynamic focus on, you know, what we're talking about.9:31And Speaking of relationships, I mean, you know, the other good part about this too is Todd, you and I both have some good relationships with some people that can bring really great insight.9:43And so we'll be leveraging those relationships as well to be able to bring you the audience some more insight to what what's happening in, in close to real time as possible.9:53And then of course, you know, my position with IEM allow some conversations to to happen as well.10:01And the Today as an example, well, we, we have to talk a little bit about the, the elephant in the room is what's going on with FEMA.10:10The, the president has set forth his vision on, on making changes.10:16And I don't think there's an emergency manager in the United States right now that doesn't think the Stafford Act needs to be, you know, looked at and, and fixed, right?10:30You know, it's an old act, right?10:33And that FEMA does need to have, you know, to be maybe remodeled a little bit.10:38Sure.10:39I, I definitely don't think it should be destroyed and taken away, But you know, where does it belong and, and, and how does it work?10:47And you know, I've been calling for a few years now.10:49Well, let's say probably over 10 years now that FEMA should be a stand alone agency.10:53And there's, there's cons and pros for both for, for all of this, right?10:59And then today I got to sit down with the acting administrator, Hamilton to hear a little bit about his background and what his, his, you know, his goals are.11:11And the good thing is, is what he's doing right now is listening to the emergency managers out there, meeting with the big groups such as IEM and Nima, big cities, meeting with them to discuss what their needs and goals and, and desires are when it comes to what FEMA is and can be.11:34And I think it's a really important first step.11:37And I, and I commend them for that.11:40Yeah.11:40You know, the, the, the basic rules and kind of organizational leadership are you, you got to, got to figure out what your objectives are, to figure out what your mission is, that type of thing.11:51And, and many times it's a driving factor in where you end up or who you're working for working under and, and how it's supposed to work.12:00I think, you know, that revisit it's, it's not something necessarily that, you know, every time you get a new leader in that you need to do that, But you also can't go 20 or 30 or 40 years and have problems and not do it.12:16And you know, there obviously is a, has been for some time a heartbeat out there saying, Hey, let's let's have it as a, a cabinet member.12:27And my position is whether it's a cabinet member or not, it's still going to come down to the mission, the organization, understanding what the mission is and the talent that's inside the organization.12:40I was in this little teeny organization for a short time called the United States Marine Corps.12:45It's a it's a branch under a department, but everybody knows who we are.12:51Everybody knows what we do because we've got a clear mission.12:53I've had it for 250 years and we're the best at what we do.12:57So in some ways, when you do it well, it doesn't matter that you're not equal to the Department of the Navy and under the Department of the Navy, just as an example.13:09And so I think that's going to be a hard, long conversation and a lot of work that'll have to be done to establish that capability that is not only understood but is respected and is effective in the field.13:27Because that's what's been coming into question is it's effectiveness in the field.13:31Where it sits organizationally probably doesn't have much to do with that.13:35So I think it'll be interesting moving forward.13:39I'm not watching from afar.13:40Certainly have a lot of folks that I'm talking to that are, they're nervous and they're trying to, you know, decipher what's happening and figure it out and where do I fit in?13:51In the end, you got to do the best job that you can and not have that question because you did the best job that could be done.13:58And so I I think that'll be something worth talking about moving forward and, and watching how it kind of transpires.14:08Yeah, absolutely.14:09And, and you're right, I think nervousness, I think is a good word to say.14:13Uncertainty, right?14:14It breeds nervousness a little bit.14:15And I think that's kind of where we're at.14:17And, you know, the current administration's communication style is, is interesting at the at the best or at the worst, I suppose, or whichever we look at it is sometimes I believe, you know, President Trump just floats things out there just to see how people react.14:34And, you know, he's a, he's interesting guy that way.14:40And I think it takes a little bit of time to get used to that style of communication.14:45Whether you agree with it or not.14:46It just says it is what it is, right?14:48You know, not just talking about the yeah, go ahead.14:55I was going to say that.14:56I was just going to judge.15:01We all have to get used to how Manhattan downtown developers do business.15:08That's, that's what we have to get used to.15:10And, and most of us haven't had to deal with that.15:13So it's a, it's a different way that things get done.15:17There's no question.15:19Yeah, absolutely.15:20And like I said, I'm not, I'm not judging it.15:23I'm not putting a value to it.15:24I'm just saying it is what it is.15:25And this is what we have to deal with.15:26You know, I, I think as emergency managers and, and, and guys that are in the field, you know, when we're looking at situations, we have to understand that we don't have time to placate on whether we agree with something or not.15:43We just have to deal with the consequences of what's happening.15:45And, and, and this is where we're at.15:47We have to deal with the consequences that, that, that are happening.15:51And so, you know, that being said, you know, what is the future of Emergency Management when it comes to to what the federal government believes in?16:03That's going to be a long conversation.16:05You know, you know, and we, we have a long history of things changing.16:13And I think we forget this because, you know, we we live in the generation that we're in, right?16:20And we may look back at the previous generations, but we live in where we're at and what we're used to and in that comfort zone.16:28And, you know, I think if we reflect back to when, you know, Franklin Donald Roosevelt created an office that would look at Emergency Management, if you will, without using the terminology.16:39It's where we grew up from, you know, to Truman turned it into really the civil defense of what we think of today, you know, with the Burt the Turtle and all that nuclear stuff that they were dealing with.16:50And and then it kind of got to Jimmy Carter at this point where he turned it into FEMA in 79.16:56And then, of course, the Stafford Act.16:58These are chunks that we didn't live in, right?17:01You know, some I, I, you know, realistically, Todd, you and I, we're from, you know, 70s into the, to the 80s when we were, you know, kids and then we're working.17:12The experience has been this short box.17:14So we look at these boxes that we've lived in and not understanding what the, what the history was and what the changes are.17:20So, so this too, you know, will be a little uncomfortable, but maybe it's uncomfortable that we need to be better.17:28And if we look at it that way and, and as long as we're part of the conversation, that's my only concern is if we start having conversation without us, then what does that mean?17:38Right, right.17:40And I think the, the other thing, just analyzing it a little bit as an outsider looking in, I think what are the alternatives going to be?17:51You know, they're, they're talking about a few alternatives and, and putting pressure or responsibility in other places, like for example, the states.18:00Well, they better do a true analysis of whether that capability is actually there.18:07It sounds great and it probably looks good on paper, but there's going to be a harsh reality that that may not be the answer.18:17And I'm, I'm not going to call out any one state or any 10 states or any 25 states.18:22I'm just going to say there will be serious questions as to whether certain states can take on those previous FEMA responsibilities.18:33And I think it could be a bigger mess and a bigger tragedy if that's not really looked at very, very hard and and very critically in terms of what the capabilities actually are in some of those locations.18:51You know, I think about the fires that we just had here in Los Angeles County and one of the last fires that kicked off as this thing was burning, you know, they were able to put 4000 firefighters onto a fire in in a very short period of time to stop it from burning up the town of Castaic or the village, I guess, right.19:13We got lucky in one aspect that there were already firefighters down here from all over the place that we can, we, we can move those assets over.19:20You know, that's one state.19:23State of California is unique in that aspect of it.19:26I mean, I don't think and, and I'm going to pick on a state and I mean, I can, you know, if, if you fear for that state, please let me, I'm telling you, I don't know the assets.19:35So I'm not not saying that you can't do it.19:37But if you took like Montana, for instance, who has lot of wild land fires, I don't know if they could put in in in 30 minutes of a fire kicking off, Could they put 4000 firefighters on that fire in 30 minutes of a kicking off?19:52Or Colorado for that matter, where you're from, you know, do they have those assets?19:57And, and maybe they do, maybe they don't, but that's the difference between having mutual aid and the federal government coming in to be able to pay for things on the back end than it is to to not right.20:09And and again, maybe Montana and Colorado could put those assets on their.20:13I'm not, I'm not trying to say that you're not on issues as an example, I want to be clear on that.20:19But you know, without federal assistance immediately, can the smaller states handle those large scale disasters as quickly as they can right now?20:34Sure.20:34I yeah, I definitely think that's, you know, that resource management piece is a is a big aspect of it.20:40But let's say you're a week into it, do some of the states have the ability to even manage that?20:50You know, when we start to think about some of the large scale operations and you know, maybe maybe you have an Emergency Management office, full time staff of 20 people that may not have, you know, the ability or the experience of handling, you know, that type of complexity.21:11That is the word that always bothers me.21:16The, the actual complexity.21:18You know, incident command speaks to it quite a bit.21:21We've got a pretty good system for incident command.21:23We've got a pretty good system at the top tier of who manages complex incidents and who's qualified to manage complex incidents.21:32Well, you know, some of that would somewhat come into question if you don't have that guidance from, from FEMA or even some of their support from an IMAP perspective.21:42And then we're that we're going to rely on a state agency of, of 16 people to, to be able to do it.21:51I don't know.21:52I I think it's definitely something that it's going to be a, a bridge we have to cross if that's the direction that we end up going.22:00Yeah, absolutely.22:01And, and, and going back to some of the smaller states.22:03And I'll pick on Maine here for a minute because I was talking, I was talking to one of the guys from Maine and they have volunteer emergency managers, you know, you know, and I'm like, well, and it blew my mind when we had this conversation with him.22:22I'm like, you know, I I never thought about that, that you have a town, you know, a state that's so, you know, sparsely populated in some areas that they just have some dude who's like, all right, I'll, I'll do it for a volunteer.22:34You know, like that means you get your regular day job that you're doing and in the evening, maybe you're, you know, you're doing Emergency Management stuff.22:42Yeah, that kind of that kind of blows my mind a little bit.22:45So, you know, what do we do with states like that that don't even have the ask the the ability to pay for emergency managers, you know, to live in what?22:53I mean, you know, how do we ask?22:56How do we?22:56And the support doesn't necessarily, you know, I want to rewind the minute, the support doesn't necessarily have to be be people on the ground, right?23:05You know, those volunteer emergency managers in Maine may have the the capabilities of doing it as on a volunteer basis because they don't have a lot of disasters that occurred.23:13That's fine.23:13I'm not, I'm not making fun of that position.23:17What I'm saying is they need support and the support that they might get might just be from training, you know, grants to help pay for things because obviously their tax base is going to be lower.23:29So they may need those, those grants from from the federal government to to pay for programs, you know, the send people to EMI or whatever they change their name to, you know, you know, for, for training, you know, the university.23:50Is that the university?23:52FEMA you or, or, you know, used to be FEMA you.23:56yeah.com.23:58Good Lord.23:59Something we're going to, we're going to send us hate mail.24:02Jeff Stearns, Doctor Stearns, We're not making fun of you, man.24:05We're just right.24:12Excuse me, but yeah.24:14I mean, we go into this like, how do we support those smaller states that don't have big budgets?24:20I'm lucky to be from living in California and from New York, which are, you know, have big budgets, but I mean, heck, even New York State, you know, I mean, if you want to take a look at the responders in New York State, there's the majority of the responders in New York State are volunteer.24:41You know, it's one of the states that there are more Volunteer Fire departments in New York State than paid, you know, So what does that look like?24:50And, and what support are they getting from, from the federal government, whether it's through FEMA, the National Forest Service, I help it out with, with different grants and stuff.25:00The you, you know, out here in, in the West Coast, we have BLM, which has firefighting assets and things that could be used.25:09There's a lot of stuff that National Forest Service.25:12There's a lot of stuff that we're relying upon and maybe even too much, right?25:17Maybe that's the back of our mind and and we're relying on those, those assets.25:22You don't compare it to saying let's pretend they don't exist, right?25:26I don't know.25:28That's the stuff I think is making a lot of people nervous about some of the changes that are going on right now of the unknown answers to unknown questions.25:39Yeah.25:41Well, it's going to be interesting.25:42It's going to be good.25:43And we'll kind of start to figure out right the next, next episode and who knows who's going to be in what jobs.25:54So we, we may, we may get a, a really good guess right as we, as we move forward or some of the folks who've previously been in those positions that give us some insight.26:06I think that's really our goal.26:10Absolutely.26:11Well, Todd, you know, we're trying to keep these within that 30 minute window and we're coming up to the last few minutes here on our conversation.26:22Is there anything that you'd like to say to the listeners out there that are coming back and, and how do we, you know, to the new listeners that might be just finding us?26:32I say, you know, TuneIn and we definitely will keep it interested and keep it moving from that perspective and, and give some feel reporting too.26:41That's one of the things I know that we've talked about that we want to incorporate here because I think it'll give a little bit different feel to to the conversation.26:52But I think this was a good one to get us started and look forward to talking to you next week.27:00Absolutely, my friend.27:01Looking forward to seeing you next week.27:03It's always, it's always nice to see that big smile right there very often.27:09Right.27:09Yeah.27:11All right, all right, everybody, until next time, you know, stay safe and well, stay hydrated. 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OPEN HEAVENSMATALA LE LAGI MO LE ASO TOONAI  28 TESEMA 2024(tusia e Pastor EA Adeboye) Manatu Autu: Tofotofo Ia Te Oe Lava - Examine Yourself Tauloto -Tusi Paia– 2 Korinito 13:5 “Inā tofotofo ia ‘outou ‘iā te ‘outou, po ‘ua ‘outou i le fa‘atuatua; ‘inā su‘esu‘e ifo ia ‘iā te ‘outou; pe tou te lē iloa ‘ea o ‘outou loto, ‘ua i totonu ‘iā te ‘outou o Iesu Keriso, pe ‘āfai ‘ua lē pepelo ‘outou?” Faitauga – Tusi Paia – 1 Korinito 11:31-32I le Tusi o Isaia 6:1-5, sa vaai Isaia I le mamalu ma le Paia o le Atua ona ia alaga lea ua tagi ma faapea “Aue a'u nei!” A o le'i o'o i lea taimi, sa ia fai perofetaga ma sa vaai uma tagata ia te ia e paia. Peita'i na vaai Isaia ia te ia i le malamalama o le mamalu ma le paia o le Atua ma ia iloa ai le tulaga moni sa ia i ai.Le au pele e, e tāua le fai o le suesuega a le tagata lava ia ia te ia mai lea taimi i lea taimi. Aua e te tu'u tasi i faamatalaga a tagata e uiga ia te oe aua atonu latou te lē iloa lelei oe pei ona e iloaina o oe lava. E lē iloa e tagata mafaufauga o lou loto poo mea e te fai pe a tuua na o oe. O lea la, e te manaomia lou silasila toto'a ia te oe lava ma faatino se suesuega faamaoni o le tulaga moni o lou loto.Aua e te faamasinoa oe lava e fua i ou lava manatu; ae fua lou tagata faatatau i tapulaa a le Atua. Fai mai le Tusi Paia I le 2 Korinito 10:18 e lē talia o lē ua vivi'i o ia ia te ia, a o lē ua viia e le Alii. Atonu na fai le faamasinoga a Isaia ia te ia lava i ana lava fua fa'atatau, peitai ina ua fetaia'i ma le mamalu o le Atua, na ia vaaia ai le tele o le faaletonu o lona tagata sa i ai. Faamasino lou tagata i le malamalama o le moni I le Upu a le Atua; o le ala lea e faailoa atu ai ia te oe poo sa'o lou ala pe leai. Aua e te faamasino ia te oe, e fua i ou lagona, upu a tagata, poo mea ua e ausia. Faaaoga le upu a le Atua pei o se fa'ata, e faasino atu ia te oe, lou ituaiga tagata moni. A uma ona e fuatia oe e fua faatatau i le upu a le Atua, ofo atoatoa loa lou ola mo ia ma fai i ai e fesoasoani mai ia te oe ia e ola tonu.Ina ua uma le tulaga na o'o i ai Isaia i le Isaia 6:1-5, na ia iloa ai, pau le ala e mafai ai ona moni lona faapaiaina, o le fesoasoani mai o le Atua. E lē mafai ona e amiotonu i sou lava malosi; e te matua'i mana'omia le Atua e fesoasoani iā te oe. Fai mai le Salamo 20:1-2; e ao ona e tatalo ia auina mai e le Alii le fesoasoani iā te oe mai le malumalu. Sei vagana ua e iloa e te manaomia le fesoasoani, faatoa tuuina mai le fesoasoani mai le malumalu. E tatau ona e tumau i luma o le faata o le upu a le Atua seia e maua le fesoasoani e tupu ai le amiotonu. Aua e te pei o le tagata o loo faamatala I le Iakopo 1:22-24; tumau ma taofimau i le upu a le Atua.Fai mai le 1 Korinito 11:31 auā afai ana tatou faamasino ia te i tatou, po ua lē faasalaina i tatou. O lona uiga a uma ona e su'esu'e ma tofotofo ia te oe lava, iloa ou faaletonu, ma faatino fesuiaiga tonu, o le a le faasalaina oe pe a o'o I le aso faamasino.Le au pele e, ou te tatalo ia fai ma au masani le su'esu'e ifo ia te oe lava e tusa ma tapulaa a le Atua, e te maua ai se faamanuia mai le Tupu Silisili I le aso gataaga, I le suafa o Iesu. Amene.

OPEN HEAVENSMATALA LE LAGI MO LE ASO TOONAI 16 NOVEMA 2024(tusia e Pastor EA Adeboye) Manatu Autu: Tusi Paia, Itupa ma feusuaiga 3.  (The Bible, gender and sexuality 3) Tauloto -Tusi Paia–Efeso 4:25 “O lenei, ‘ia ‘outou tu‘u ‘ese le pepelo, ‘ia tautalatala fa‘amaoni ta‘itasi ma lē la te tuā‘oi; auā o itū tino lava tatou o le tasi i le tasi.”‭‭Faitauga – Tusi Paia –Roma 1:20-32I le taualuga o le lesona na o'u amata i aso e lua ua mavae fa'atatau i itupa ma feusuaiga, o le a o'u faasoa atu ma oe se a'oa'oga na o'u maua. I ni tausaga ua mavae, sa o'u I se atunuu i Sisifo ou te lauga ai, ma na faatalanoa a'u e se tusitala faatatau i so'u manatu e uiga i ulugalii a le tama ma le tama, ma le teine ma le teine poo itupa tutusa. Na o'u tali i le uso na faatalanoaina a'u, na faia e le Atua tane ma fafine ia fanafanau. Ona o'u fesili lea, “E mafai ea e tagata itupa tutusa ona fanau ni fanau?” Na fa'ai'u la'u faamatalaga i lo'u fai atu, afai o tagata uma o le a faaipoipo i se isi la te itupa tutusa, o le a uma ai i le lalolagi i le augātupulaga lenei.Faapei o se atali'i/afafine o le Atua, so'o se taimi e te maua ai le avanoa e te talanoa ai faatatau i feusuaiga faa Sotoma ma Komoro aua e te ‘alo ma taamilomilo solo lau talanoa. O le mafuaaga o le sasao fa'aafi o le amioleaga ona o le fefefe o tagata lelei e ta'u le mea moni. Aua e te gūgū pe a fai atu tagata o latou e tosina o latou loto i feusuaiga ma tagata o la latou lava itupa. Aua e te faamasino pe fa'asala ia i latou, a ia ta'u ia i latou le mea moni ma le alofa. O le fa'asala o i latou e na o le faatupu ai o le misa, ma o lo tatou Atua e lē o se Atua o fa'asalaga, a o le Atua o le alofa. Talanoa i ai i le alofa, a ia faasino pea ia i latou upu o le Tusi Paia, o mea o o latou faia e lē mai le Atua auā o loo manino i lana upu e inosia e ia amioga faapea. Ta'u ia i latou e te augofie e tatalo ma i latou ma fesoasoani ia fa'asa'oloto i latou mai nei lagona.O le faitauga mai le Tusi Paia o le asō ua ta'u mai ai ia i tatou le mea e tupu i tagata pe a tu'u pea i o latou mafaufau leaga; o ia tagata e lē mafai ona i'u lelei vagana ua salamō. Tumau e tete'e i feusuaiga I le va o tagata itupa tutusa, ma fai mea uma e te mafaia e faaali atu ai i tagata faapea le ala sa'o e tatau ona soifua ai o loo tusia i le Tusi Paia. Na tu mau Lota e tete'e atu i feusuaiga fa'afātama ma fa'afafine i le Tusi o Kenese 19:1-7, e ui na matua'i iloga lona popole. Na te le'i fa'atagaina tagata Sotoma e ulufale i lona fale e fai le amio leaga ma agelu na ia valaaulia e malōlō i totonu o lona fale, tiga ona faatauanau le nuu ia te ia ma toetoe a osofa'i lona āiga.Le au Pele e, ou te iloa i nisi atunuu, o se solitulafono le tau o le upu moni fa'atatau i feusuaiga fa'a Sotoma, peita'i e sili atu lo tatou mālō iā Keriso, ma e tatau ona o tatou faailoa o ia i mea uma tatou te i ai. Aua e te tūtū ma matamata a'o agai atu tagata i le fa'afanoga; e I ai lou tiute e tatau ona fai e lavea'i ai ni agaga se toatele, (Iuta 1:17-23). Ta'u atu le Upu moni I le Afioga Paia a le Atua fa'atatau i le faa Sotoma i soose taimi ma se aso e te maua ai le avanoa. I le suafa o Iesu. Amene.

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________Opening Words:“Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.”Psalm 19:14 (ESV) Confession:Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God. Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen. Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in eternal life. Amen. The InvitatoryLord, open our lips.And our mouth shall proclaim your praise.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Venite (Psalm 95:1-7)Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. Come, let us sing to the Lord; * let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving * and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.For the Lord is a great God, * and a great King above all gods.In his hand are the caverns of the earth, * and the heights of the hills are his also.The sea is his, for he made it, * and his hands have molded the dry land.Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice! Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. The PsalterPsalm 69Salvum me fac1Save me, O God, *for the waters have risen up to my neck.2I am sinking in deep mire, *and there is no firm ground for my feet.3I have come into deep waters, *and the torrent washes over me.4I have grown weary with my crying;my throat is inflamed; *my eyes have failed from looking for my God.5Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head;my lying foes who would destroy me are mighty. *Must I then give back what I never stole?6O God, you know my foolishness, *and my faults are not hidden from you.7Let not those who hope in you be put to shame through me, Lord God of hosts; *let not those who seek you be disgraced because of me, O God of Israel.8Surely, for your sake have I suffered reproach, *and shame has covered my face.9I have become a stranger to my own kindred, *an alien to my mother's children.10Zeal for your house has eaten me up; *the scorn of those who scorn you has fallen upon me.11I humbled myself with fasting, *but that was turned to my reproach.12I put on sack-cloth also, *and became a byword among them.13Those who sit at the gate murmur against me, *and the drunkards make songs about me.14But as for me, this is my prayer to you, *at the time you have set, O Lord:15“In your great mercy, O God, *answer me with your unfailing help.16Save me from the mire; do not let me sink; *let me be rescued from those who hate meand out of the deep waters.17Let not the torrent of waters wash over me,neither let the deep swallow me up; *do not let the Pit shut its mouth upon me.18Answer me, O Lord, for your love is kind; *in your great compassion, turn to me.'19“Hide not your face from your servant; *be swift and answer me, for I am in distress.20Draw near to me and redeem me; *because of my enemies deliver me.21You know my reproach, my shame, and my dishonor; *my adversaries are all in your sight.”22Reproach has broken my heart, and it cannot be healed; *I looked for sympathy, but there was none,for comforters, but I could find no one.23They gave me gall to eat, *and when I was thirsty, they gave me vinegar to drink.31As for me, I am afflicted and in pain; *your help, O God, will lift me up on high.32I will praise the Name of God in song; *I will proclaim his greatness with thanksgiving.33This will please the Lord more than an offering of oxen, *more than bullocks with horns and hoofs.34The afflicted shall see and be glad; *you who seek God, your heart shall live.35For the Lord listens to the needy, *and his prisoners he does not despise.36Let the heavens and the earth praise him, *the seas and all that moves in them;37For God will save Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah; *they shall live there and have it in possession.38The children of his servants will inherit it, *and those who love his Name will dwell therein. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. LessonsEzra 7:27-28English Standard Version27 Blessed be the Lord, the God of our fathers, who put such a thing as this into the heart of the king, to beautify the house of the Lord that is in Jerusalem, 28 and who extended to me his steadfast love before the king and his counselors, and before all the king's mighty officers. I took courage, for the hand of the Lord my God was on me, and I gathered leading men from Israel to go up with me.Ezra 8:21-36English Standard Version21 Then I proclaimed a fast there, at the river Ahava, that we might humble ourselves before our God, to seek from him a safe journey for ourselves, our children, and all our goods. 22 For I was ashamed to ask the king for a band of soldiers and horsemen to protect us against the enemy on our way, since we had told the king, “The hand of our God is for good on all who seek him, and the power of his wrath is against all who forsake him.” 23 So we fasted and implored our God for this, and he listened to our entreaty.24 Then I set apart twelve of the leading priests: Sherebiah, Hashabiah, and ten of their kinsmen with them. 25 And I weighed out to them the silver and the gold and the vessels, the offering for the house of our God that the king and his counselors and his lords and all Israel there present had offered. 26 I weighed out into their hand 650 talents of silver, and silver vessels worth 200 talents, and 100 talents of gold, 27 20 bowls of gold worth 1,000 darics, and two vessels of fine bright bronze as precious as gold. 28 And I said to them, “You are holy to the Lord, and the vessels are holy, and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering to the Lord, the God of your fathers. 29 Guard them and keep them until you weigh them before the chief priests and the Levites and the heads of fathers' houses in Israel at Jerusalem, within the chambers of the house of the Lord.” 30 So the priests and the Levites took over the weight of the silver and the gold and the vessels, to bring them to Jerusalem, to the house of our God.31 Then we departed from the river Ahava on the twelfth day of the first month, to go to Jerusalem. The hand of our God was on us, and he delivered us from the hand of the enemy and from ambushes by the way. 32 We came to Jerusalem, and there we remained three days. 33 On the fourth day, within the house of our God, the silver and the gold and the vessels were weighed into the hands of Meremoth the priest, son of Uriah, and with him was Eleazar the son of Phinehas, and with them were the Levites, Jozabad the son of Jeshua and Noadiah the son of Binnui. 34 The whole was counted and weighed, and the weight of everything was recorded.35 At that time those who had come from captivity, the returned exiles, offered burnt offerings to the God of Israel, twelve bulls for all Israel, ninety-six rams, seventy-seven lambs, and as a sin offering twelve male goats. All this was a burnt offering to the Lord. 36 They also delivered the king's commissions to the king's satraps and to the governors of the province Beyond the River, and they aided the people and the house of God.Revelation 15English Standard Version15 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.2 And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire—and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. 3 And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,“Great and amazing are your deeds,    O Lord God the Almighty!Just and true are your ways,    O King of the nations!4 Who will not fear, O Lord,    and glorify your name?For you alone are holy.    All nations will come    and worship you,for your righteous acts have been revealed.”5 After this I looked, and the sanctuary of the tent of witness in heaven was opened, 6 and out of the sanctuary came the seven angels with the seven plagues, clothed in pure, bright linen, with golden sashes around their chests. 7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever, 8 and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished. The Word of the Lord.Thanks Be To God. Benedictus (The Song of Zechariah)Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; * he has come to his people and set them free.He has raised up for us a mighty savior, * born of the house of his servant David.Through his holy prophets he promised of old, that he would save us from our enemies, * from the hands of all who hate us. He promised to show mercy to our fathers * and to remember his holy covenant. This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham, * to set us free from the hands of our enemies, Free to worship him without fear, * holy and righteous in his sight all the days of our life.You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High, * for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way, To give his people knowledge of salvation * by the forgiveness of their sins.In the tender compassion of our God * the dawn from on high shall break upon us, To shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death, * and to guide our feet into the way of peace.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The Apostles CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersLord, have mercy.Christ, have mercyLord, have mercyOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen. The SuffragesO Lord, show your mercy upon us;And grant us your salvation.O Lord, guide those who govern usAnd lead us in the way of justice and truth.Clothe your ministers with righteousnessAnd let your people sing with joy.O Lord, save your peopleAnd bless your inheritance.Give peace in our time, O LordAnd defend us by your mighty power.Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgottenNor the hope of the poor be taken away.Create in us clean hearts, O GodAnd take not your Holy Spirit from us. Take a moment of silence at this time to reflect and pray for others. The CollectsProper 26Almighty and merciful God, it is only by your gift that your faithful people offer you true and laudable service: Grant that we may run without stumbling to obtain your heavenly promises; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen. Daily Collects:A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries, through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceO Lord, our heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this day: Defend us by your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin nor run into any danger; and that, guided by your Spirit, we may do what is righteous in your sight; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.Collect of Saint BasilO Christ God, Who art worshipped and glorified at every place and time; Who art long-suffering, most merciful and compassionate; Who lovest the righteous and art merciful to sinners; Who callest all to salvation with the promise of good things to come: receive, Lord, the prayers we now offer, and direct our lives in the way of Thy commandments. Sanctify our souls, cleanse our bodies, correct our thoughts, purify our minds and deliver us from all affliction, evil and illness. Surround us with Thy holy angels, that guarded and instructed by their forces, we may reach unity of faith and the understanding of Thine unapproachable glory: for blessed art Thou unto ages of ages. Amen. General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; Through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen. A Prayer of St. John ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time, with one accord to make our common supplications to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will grant their requests: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. DismissalLet us bless the LordThanks be to God!Alleluia, Alleluia! BenedictionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen

Have you ever wondered how small fitness tweaks can unlock your leadership potential and supercharge your energy? In Episode 41 of Sweet on Leadership, host Tim Sweet welcomes back Erin Ashbacher, a CSEP-certified personal trainer and senior health advisor, to discuss the powerful connection between physical fitness and leadership performance. Erin reveals that even the smallest changes in your daily routine, like a brisk walk or standing on one leg while brushing your teeth, can recharge your mental and physical energy, helping you grow stronger in both your personal and professional life.Throughout the episode, Tim and Erin dive into the challenges executives and caregivers face in maintaining their health while leading others. Erin offers practical, bite-sized strategies to help listeners integrate wellness into their busy schedules without feeling overwhelmed. From building mental resilience through exercise to the importance of proper hydration, the conversation is packed with actionable tips to boost your personal energy and leadership capacity. Whether you're a leader managing a team or a caregiver balancing responsibilities, this episode offers empowering insights to help you thrive in every aspect of your life.About Erin AshbacherErin Ashbacher, a distinguished Senior Health Advisor and CSEP-certified personal trainer, is a driving force in health, wellness, and fitness. Armed with a Bachelor of Kinesiology from The University of Calgary, Erin, a powerlifter and former dancer, seamlessly combines expertise in movement, nutrition, and motivation.As the owner of ERA Fitness, Erin boasts a top 10 industry performance since 2016, offering personalized training and coaching services. Her approach, emphasizing life balance and aligning health with professional goals, positions her as a key collaborator for leadership development clients in Calgary and beyond. Erin's superpowers encompass listening, goal-setting, movement expertise, and the ability to create customized programs, both in-person and online. Rooted in a famous Alberta rodeo family, she brings a unique appreciation for farming and ranching to her multifaceted lifestyle, which includes enjoying outdoor activities with her partner, Doug. Resources: National Saftey Council 2019: Cost of Fatigue in the WorkplaceCentre of Disease Control 2016: A good night's sleep is critical for good healthA purpose in life by day results in better sleep at night: Northwestern 2017 StudyJulie Freedman Smith --Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Erin Ashbacher | Shred Sisters: Website: Shred SistersLinkedin: Erin Ashbacher -- TranscriptErin 00:01Take the disruption in the season or in the schedule as an opportunity to reassess and add in something new or change what you're doing right. All summer long, I was on my bike, and it was amazing. And now that it's fall, it's getting a little bit cooler, and taking it as an opportunity to reassess my activity schedule and get back into the gym and lift some weights again. So it's okay to do that. Tim 00:25I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and I'd like to welcome you to Episode 41 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Tim 00:56Well, Hey everybody, welcome back to the Sweet on Leadership Podcast. I'm excited, once again, to introduce my friend, personal trainer and TWE Health and Wellness Consultant, Erin Ashbacher. Erin is a CSEP-certified personal trainer and a senior health advisor. She's been involved in several different sports, and I'll let her tell you all about that, but she brings a wealth of experience to the table, and because 90% of the executives that I help have concerns in the health area. I am wonderfully privileged to have Erin on staff so that I can pass them off to her because she's infinitely more qualified than I am to help them in that space. So welcome again, Erin. Thanks for being here. Erin 01:41Thanks for having me again. Tim. Tim 01:44So on that note, you've done so many cool things. Tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe a little bit about your history, and what's got you moving and active right now. Erin 01:55Yeah, I did my degree at the University of Calgary in kinesiology, and I fell in love with how the body moves and how it reacts to different inputs, and I've had an amazing career working in cardiac rehabilitation and then working with high-level executives in downtown Calgary, as well as lots of different athletes from across a multitude of sports, both getting ready to compete, as well as some rehab and some prehab. So I just spent the entire summer on my bike, coaching mountain biking and getting athletes ready to hit the trails. Few that were looking to get faster for some races, but a lot of just kind of recreational people wanting to get out and enjoy the beautiful place that we live. Tim 02:42Right, and I mean, we are at the foothills of some amazing riding, and as we know, we've got several friends in that industry, and such a joy to be able to work with people that are involved in that sport and putting on awesome events in that sport. So really good. So before we go too much further, we've got a little tradition here, as you know, and that is that we have our previous guest lob a question at possibly the next guest, who often they never know who it is. So your question comes from Massimo Bacchus, who's a fellow leadership coach and my new friend. I love new friends. Massimo asks, what is the one thing that you are most afraid of to let go, and if you did let go of that thing, who would you be? Erin 03:29Ooh, it's a great question. I would say that my biggest fear is being able to confidently tell others about my value and what would I bring to the table, it's always been this pull of you can make money or you can be genuine and authentic, and I know that that's not true, and so I would love to be able to kind of let that go, and I know that I would be able to make a much larger impact if I can get it for that. Tim 03:59What would the first few days of a relationship with a new client look like if that stress was off you? Erin 04:07Oh, I would probably sleep better in the night before I met a new client. Yeah, I mean, I know that I would come into things a lot more confidently. I wouldn't be worried about kind of this, like background of what the bill looks like at the end of the day, and just being able to walk in they would see that they know that, right? Tim 04:29Well, it's funny that you say that, and it almost sounds like a plant, but I assure you, dear listeners, that it is not. We're going to be talking today about capacity. We're going to be talking today about our personal energy, and the energy that we're able to put into the workplace and put into our professions and put into our lives, and that body battery, that mental battery that each of us has, because Erin is the perfect person to talk about, how do we increase the ability of that battery to take more energy in, to use it more effectively, to recharge faster. Am I expecting too much from you there, Erin?Erin 05:07Uh, no. Not at all. Tim 05:09You're totally game. Right on. A couple of little stats here that we were talking about before we got going. You know, when we look at the state of the workplace, and I have, I would say, almost all of the clients that I have, all the teams that I deal with, especially as we've come through some fairly tumultuous times, fatigue in the workplace, ability to feel like you've got anything left at the end of the week is an issue. Before COVID, the National Safety Council down in the states had done a study, and this was from 2019 where they figured at that time, it cost the US economy $136 billion in lost productivity when businesses weren't able to properly manage their capacity and manage their fatigue levels. And the Center for Disease Control at the same time told us that one in three adults didn't get enough sleep. Now, that, to me, is not surprising. In fact, I would be really surprised if that number, that number was from that number is actually from 2016 pardon me, if that isn't higher now, because of all the distractions and whatnot we've got plaguing us. Erin 06:17Absolutely. Tim 06:18Doom scrolling right before bed. Erin 06:21Right, well, and thinking about quality and quantity of sleep, right? So, yeah, interesting. I'd love to see the new stat on that. Tim 06:29Well, so as we launch into that, what do you see as the connection between physical and mental wellness and being able to show up and be the professional, be the leader, be the decision maker? How do you see that? Erin 06:45Yeah, well, I mean, there's a lot of research that shows that exercise of all types, of light, moderate and vigorous exercise will help to enhance your mood, improve your energy levels, and promote your quality of sleep, and when we have all of those things, we can show up at our nine to five with more energy, right, more to give, right? And exercise is also going to be decreasing our stress hormones, right, increasing our endorphins when we exercise, so those feel good chemicals that we get in our body, and also decreasing our stress hormones, our cortisol levels. So, decreases in anxiety and increases in our mental health. Tim 07:31For anyone that is able to get out for a walk when they are stressed, I was talking with a team around when they were dealing with high conflict in the workplace. And what do you do when you have to address a really, really difficult situation where you've got somebody that's in near on crisis, or at least is panicking, the ability, even just to get them out walking, switch the script. And I know that that's more the act of and it's a bit of a distraction, but I really believe that you know you're outside, you're breathing. In the moment, you can process things. You can set everything else aside. And that's, I mean, that's in the short term, but of course, you're also talking about in the long term, long-term capacity. Tim 08:13Absolutely. And that's that whole like light exercise, right? Going for a 15 minute walk when something's really intense. Yeah, we see those that increase in heart rate right, when in a good way, right? And it helps to create, give us more clarity and more creativity, so that we can come back to our difficult thing with open eyes. Tim 08:35So last time you were here, we talked about sort of the common challenges and resistances that people have to putting in the work or finding time throughout the day to exercise and take that time for themselves, and that it's really difficult mentally for some people to value themselves enough to do that. As you've worked with so many, I would say, executive clients you were working with clients that are at the top of their game, their CEOs, VPS, you're right in that space. What are some of the common health challenges that you have seen over the years crop up in that particular subset of people? Erin 09:17The ones that aren't taking care of themselves? Tim 09:19Or maybe they come to you with something? Erin 09:21Yeah, they come to me with something. I mean, there's a lot of high blood pressure and a lot of sleep problems as well. When we are not taking care of ourselves, we're not taking care of our mental health, it can start to affect our sleep, right? Sleep is the number one predictor of health. So, you know, that's one of those things that we need to also take care of. Tim 09:42There was a stat around the sleep connection that said it's like a virtuous cycle, right? That when people are getting better sleep, they are able to make more difficult decisions quickly. They're able to handle more stressful situations, as you say. But then also, if they get through those situations, if they are happy with their job, if they're content with their career, if they're happy with the staff that they've got, they can see up to 63% less sleep disturbances. In 2017 Northwestern did this study where they said, if you are satisfied at work, if you have less work stress, how does it impact your sleep? And they said it's well over a 50% increase that you can now put back into your day. So to me, that tells us that it's like you're getting the chance to not just refill your battery. It's like this virtuous cycle. It's getting better and better and better. Better sleep, a little more productive through the day. More productive through the day, less stress about taking an hour for yourself to go out and sweat. Erin 10:55Absolutely, and I mean, I can speak to that in my own personal journey, right? When I was downtown, I was 12-14 hours a day, face to face with clients, and I would get my hour workout in, you know, five days a week minimum. And people always ask me, how do you do it? I'm like, I love what I do. That's how I do it. And, yeah, when I go home at the end of a day, I'm invigorated, because I feel like I've made such an impact, and working in an environment that is positive, right, surrounded by great people, it just, it's that cycle that you just keep feeding in, and then you have great night's sleep, and they feed in again, and it feeds you, yeah. Tim 11:36Yeah. You know the challenge of being able to wake up on a Monday and be excited to get to work. It comes with its own challenges. I mean, you got to be careful not to work through your vacations and stuff. But you know, being excited and eager to do what you're doing with the people you want to do it with, there's no better way to feel like you are where you belong. And it's always surprising to me when there's people have yet to experience that, and they can just sit back and say, Wow, I really enjoyed that week. I can't wait to hit the ground running next week. And you know, I would say, I've got a brand new client, and he was telling me that, but we're working on capacity with him and his team, and I started talking about electric cars. And, you know, we have to work capacity from two sides. One is that, yeah, we have to have the environment and the systems and the head count and everything to be able to handle the work that we're doing. Or, you know, if it's just us, we need to have the flexibility to really rise to an occasion and operate at a greater output for short periods of time, or whatever that is. Yeah. Okay, that's your personal capacity. The next thing is, is your job and the people you work with and the quality of your team filling your bucket as you're doing that. And I said, it's like regenerative breaking. It's like the difference between having a an EV that can climb a hill and and handle those dips and yaws in the road to one that can do that and regenerate in the process when it's going down the other side. So that's what we're building into his practice. And I'm pretty happy with that metaphor. Actually, I'm gonna keep using that sucker. But, when you are face to face with clients who have these demands and they've got a lot at stake, what are some of the strategies that you suggest that can help them manage their responsibilities to themselves? Erin 13:39I mean, the best thing is, if you have control of your own schedule, I had one one person 10am every single morning, whether she was working out with me or whether she was just going for a walk around downtown, that was her time, and she blocked it off, and her entire team knew that 10am to 11am is her time. And I mean, that's an imperfect world that you can just be really hard headed about putting it in your schedule. I have another client that we discovered that he is a better parent, a better spouse when he takes a break between the work and returning home, so rather than sitting in a car, or like, you know, on the bus, takes time to walk every single day. If he can't walk, he, you know, comes for a workout with me, goes to the gym, but yeah, when he is working from home because a lot of us have hybrid models these days, he still takes that half an hour to 45 minutes to break up his work life and his home life, which I think is amazing. Yeah, recognizing that it doesn't have to be big, right? Sometimes it's a 15 minute walk in the morning before you have coffee, or while you're having coffee, pick one ritual that you're already doing and see if you can make it active. Tim 14:59Julie Freedman Smith, she's our parenting and family associate at TWE, I believe it was she who introduced me to the term transition time. Both for the kids, when you're going to ask them do something, you got to give them a bit of transition time. You got to help them switch gears. But also for me as a dad, I had to have that. And interestingly enough, I mean, just a couple of weeks ago, I was talking to an old client. I mean, he's been around forever. We still coach, but we're more friends now than anything, and he does what you just said. He'll stop, and he will sit in the car and transition for like, 10 or 15 minutes. I think that's a really good strategy that he has. He's able to then, like, really clear his slate before he goes in and dads, but why not walk like, why not walk for that 15 minutes? Or, you know, what would I'm gonna suggest that to him? What would, what would the net benefit be if he did the exact same thing, but just didn't do it in his car? I mean–Erin 15:58Make it active. Tim 16:00Totally. Just, you know–Erin 16:02Just a small thing–Tim 16:04Little Erin Ashbacher boost to your day. Erin 16:06Right? Well, hey, you know, I have a client who's recovering from an ankle injury, and I'm like, you brush your teeth, how many times a day? Twice day? Okay, stand on one foot while you're brushing your teeth, right? Just a little thing that can start to have a bigger impact–Tim 16:21Sounds familiar? Erin. Erin 16:26I love finding ways to tweak your routine, right? It's already there. Let's add one thing. Tim 16:33That's awesome because the next question I was going to ask you was incorporating small little habits. So let's talk about that standing on one leg, standing alone one leg would be a total gimme. Like, why can't you do that when you're standing on two legs? You got an option, right or left, right? What would be some other give us more. Come on. Give me. Give me. Give me. Give me. Give me. Erin 16:54Thanks. One of the things that I gave one of my other clients was she had to get down to a filing cabinet. She's an older, older client. And I just like, instead of getting down onto your knees to search through that, like, is it possible to squat down to get there, right? Just changing the way that we're moving in the office even, right? Instead of using the stool all the time, maybe we stand up and reach and kind of get a little off balance in a safe way. I love making my meetings with clients and my meetings with friends more active, too. So I love a walking meeting, or if the weather permits, getting out on our bikes and taking like a nice cruisy bike side by side. We have beautiful pathways in the city, so makes it easy. Yeah. Tim 17:40My friends over at OSP, we just had the OSpluza, which they have done every year. I was there as a speaker for one of their very first ones. I think I was there in 2018, I want to say, but anyway, every year they've got this great event that is such an expression of their culture. But you're always moving. Last year we did a scavenger hunt around the zoo. So we did professional development for a day and a half. And then scavenger hunt, holy moly, it was a blast. And then this year– Erin 18:10Running around the zoo? Tim 18:14You know, it was crazy. It was timed. And then, and we put in a lot of steps. And then, and I was on new pegs, right, like I that was one year into my into my knee surgery. And so, man, I was gained because there was no way I would have been able to do that a year before that. And then this year, it was bowling. So it's funny, I thought of you during that, because we were, we went to the the bowling alley, and I had to put on those shoes. And I thought, Okay, I better do like, a full straight bend, and really bend this out. Because, as Erin knows, I mean, some of you might have heard this. I mean, I suffered a fall saving a hamster. It's a long story. Ended up with, you know, nine to 10 months of spinal damage, Hamster related spinal damage. So anyways, a little stiff. Let's just say this my form was coming back. But, you know, when you've got big hands and you've got to use a double x, not a regular bowler, but you've got to use a double x, old ball, they tend to be, you know, 14 to 15 pounds. So you're swinging this 14 to 15 pound thing. And if you've got any self respect, you know, you're going to do your best to do you know, even though it's just casual, you're gonna do your best. I'm fairly competitive anyway, so I was stretching beforehand, thinking Erin would tell me this. Erin 19:29My other favorite hack is staying hydrated. So especially if someone is coming into the gym and working out, lifting weights, and they're fairly new to it, or they're new to it again, obviously water is going to help us recover, and it's going to help, but even if we're sitting at our desk and we're not sore, just drinking lots of water forces us to get up and walk the office and go to the bathroom and then walk back. Yeah, so I'm a huge pusher of staying hydrated, which research shows that Staying hydrated also plays a vital role in our brain function and in our concentration. Tim 20:09Tell me this. I've tried many I still, I mean, I track most of the time. I have done the big jug thing. You know, I try to drink as much water as I can, but it's what's your personal favourite hack? And I mean, I'm still, I'm always looking for tricks, because I will forget to drink.Erin 20:30Right, if you're a visual person, having it right in front of you is pretty good. But I have clients that I set a reminder for them, I'm like, you should be drinking you know, one cup, 250 milliliters every 15 minutes. So I'm a sipper, but like, hey, if all you need is a 15-minute ding on your phone to tell you to drink some water, go for it. Tim 20:53Yeah, I'm not a sipper. I'm a guzzler. Like, I we've always had, uh, no TV where we eat dinner. That was always a rule for my wife and I and our kids, and we always have a pitcher of water on the table, and it's always full, and we often without thinking it, start off the meal with all of us sort of pouring a glass of water, because it's kind of nice to have people pour water for you, and then I always drain it, like I drain just I but that's just the way. I think it comes from working in the kitchens or something, when we used to get really hot and you would just or planting trees because–Erin 21:32You have time, take it. Tim 21:34Well, and you couldn't cool yourself any other way. So you're using this hydration as almost a cooling tool. But yeah, no, I'm not polite when it comes to I just it's kind of a race. I don't know if it's kind of a personal thing, but it's like–Erin 21:47I will finish my glass first. Tim 21:49I rarely put down a full glass or even a glass with any water left in it. Erin 21:55The other trick I have is that if you know, you're a tea sipper or a coffee sipper, that you always have a one-to-one ratio. I'm pretty hard about that, because caffeine is, uh, not great. It's okay, in small quantities, but people are drinking. I drink no water at all, but I drink two cups or two pots of coffee a day; maybe, switch that. Tim 22:18This sounding familiar again, Erin. Erin 22:18It's getting a bit personal. Tim 22:20It is, although my dentist always said, always have water when you're having tea, like, always order a coffee in a water, or always order a tea in a water, if for no other reason than the fact that you need to rinse that stuff off your teeth. Right? So all good tips. I'd be really interested when we publish this; if you've already listened, go to the posting for this on my LinkedIn account, and enter your best water hacks. And then we'll put those on a giveaway, and we'll make sure everybody gets, we'll doing one of in our newsletters. Hey, we'll put, you know, here's your top 20 water hacks, goldfish bowls, not just pretty, but delicious. Anyway. Cool. All right, let's keep going. So we've got a lot of good reasons why a person should be exercising in order to increase their capacity and recharge their brain and be resilient, and the data is fairly sound that this is valuable. The one thing I wanted to ask you about was this, and that is, you'd mentioned that you had leaders that have teams that are supportive of them going out for their walk, things like this. I would throw in the middle of all this that you're either feeling guilt or shame or discomfort or fear trying to take time for yourself and work out, or you feel like you're inconveniencing your staff, or you can't leave your team alone, or your days are far too full. You might be in an environment that simply will not afford you the time, and so look for design changes that you can make. You know, how do you increase the productivity of your staff so that you can take some time off? Are you doing everything for everybody else and covering other people's work? Or do you need to shuffle how things are done, or even the people that are doing it? Don't subsidize your team or organizational health, with your life, with your own health, because it's just not a good deal, and it's so often really unnecessary, and that terrible shit tornado that just tears us down into a vicious cycle, right? Erin 24:33I like to always say, don't be the person that if you win the lottery tomorrow, your entire team is going to fall apart, right? I used to say, get hit by a bus, but I'd like to be much more positive than that, so I'm going to say, win the lottery, right? So make sure that you're giving your team all the tools that they can be successful, and so that you can guilt free take that time, yeah. Tim 24:58Well, and also so that they can take that time. Right? Oh, and that raises a really interesting thing that you and I talked about last week, and that was, we're not just talking about professionals and people who are leading in an organizational capacity. We also have people that have new roles thrust upon them, right? And this could be, you know, you've got kids going to school, okay, we're just entered the school year, now you got a whole brand new way of parenting. You might be a stay at home parent and you need to you're at a whole different level. My son just he's had a knee injury, but we just found out that he's going to have to have meniscal repair. So my wife now is gearing up to, like, have to be a caregiver and focus on him for three to five months, because he's going to need more support. And you and I were talking about that in terms of the caregiver, whether you've got a, you know, a parent or I'm of the age where the parents are getting sick, talk a little bit about that. Erin 25:53I mean, we very easily when we were sitting on a plane. It's like, you know, you put your oxygen mask on first before you help others. And that concept rings true when it comes to our everyday life, but realistically, it's very easy to grab the oxygen mask when it's physically right in front of your face. When we take a look at putting on our own oxygen mask in our lives, it's much more difficult to understand those things, and there's tons of research that shows that caregivers are at higher risk for physical and mental health issues. They're at higher risk for sleep problems, and they're at higher risk for chronic conditions such as high blood pressure. So if those caregivers can think about being preventative and taking care of their mental and physical health before those things happen, then they can be better caregivers, right? Take care of yourself, take care of others. And so yeah, knowing that it's not selfish to take that time and carve out that so that then you can be better for those people that you're helping to take care of. So in your wife's case, your son, right, she needs to take care of her own physical and mental health so that she can help him when he's recovering. Tim 27:05Another client, their spouse, is going through a total knee replacement, like I did, so they've been asking me questions about it, and they're gearing up to be their caregiver for eight months. My advice to them was, don't just think about being a support to the other person. You as the caregiver, need to think about your caregivers. So can you increase your own support? Can you afford cleaners or something? Or can you make, can you make life a little bit easier? Or can you let yourself off the hook when it when it comes to, you know, putting out fancy meals, and instead, you know, opt for something that you can produce on mass or whatnot, or just ask for help, you know. Erin 27:43Wait, you can ask for help. Tim? Tim 27:46You can, you can risk some, some questionable lasagnas. But, yeah, you can, you can ask for help. All right, cool. So we've, so what have we covered here? If I think back to everything you've said, Erin, we're sitting at this time of the year where we've got a lot of things changing. People have new roles thrust upon them, new responsibilities, and they're feeling fatigued, and like so much in business, you know, we have to not think about the cost of taking time for ourselves. We have to think about it as an investment, and we have to say these things will pay back if we can just get started, even if that's small. Hydration is an easy place to start. Standing on one foot is an easy place to start, doing a squat instead of bending over is an easy place to start. Pretending you're tying your shoes but actually stretching before you bowl at a team-building event is an easy place to start. You know, make it easy, like, do the easy thing. Do the thing that doesn't always feel like it's the big, fancy new thing. Just do the easy thing. Erin 28:56I have a shout out to my dearest friend who this year, started every single morning with five sun salutations. So basically, just touch your toes, go into a plank, stand up. For those of you who don't do yoga and it's a two minute practice and it's made a huge difference in their lives. Tim 29:18Yeah, I think that's true, and I'll give a shout out quickly to you. You know, when I was coming back from this tkr, you said 20 minutes, Tim, just every day, an intentional 20 minutes. And I've managed to keep that up, regardless of what's been happening, and that, if nothing else is just says I did it. I did my 20 minutes. You know, even if it's not always stellar, but check I'm gonna start doing–Erin 29:42Something is better than nothing. Tim 29:44You know. And how often do we say, if it's not perfect, we're not gonna do it? I mean, barf, all right, cool. It's been great. So as I always ask, we've covered all this ground. If people were to take one thing away, if you were to see people transform in one way, if you had to ask it a simpler way, if you had one wish for people who are listening today, what would it be? Erin 30:10Take the disruption in the season or in the schedule as an opportunity to reassess and add in something new or change what you're doing, right? All summer long, I was on my bike, and it was amazing. And now that it's fall, it's getting a little bit cooler, and taking it as an opportunity to reassess my activity schedule and get back into the gym and lift some weights again. So it's okay to do that. Tim 30:32I love that. You know, pop the bubble. Change doesn't have to be a threat, right? It can be an opportunity. Cool now to continue on to our tradition. If you were to lob a question at our next guest, not exactly sure who that would be, why don't you fire one at me? Erin 30:53My question is, how do you stop your big, juicy challenge that you've been dreaming of doing from sitting on the shelf. How do you anchor that? Get into it? Tim 31:05Okay, so we've got some guests coming up that I think are going to be perfect to throw that at, so I'm looking forward to that. Okay, thank you very much. Erin, before we go tell people what you've got going on, anything you'd like to share that you're excited about. Erin 31:24Starting with Cochran minor hockey this fall, doing some team training. Very excited for their off ice season coming up. Yeah, just looking forward to a few changes in my personal life that maybe I'll share next time. Tim 31:37Yay, maybe you'll share next time. I'm going to throw one in there too, and that is that you've already helped several of the people that are my clients. And so if you're already doing leadership development, or you're already doing personal coaching or something like this, layer in, it's a great time to layer in the physical aspect, especially if it's the number one thing that bugs you, if it's the thing that's really got you down, no amount of professional coaching is going to overcome grief of a bad physical situation. Start with the biggest constraint, right? And if that's your sense of self, at least work at it in parallel, which is what I'm so happy for you to be on the team. So thanks so much. All right. Well, I think that wraps us up. It's so awesome to have you back. Erin 32:29It's great to be back. Tim, thank you. Tim 32:31Okay, well, we look forward to talking to you, hopefully right before the new year, if not right early in 25. Erin 32:37Sounds great. Tim 32:39Listen for updates and look for Erin to be offering in some writing and some posts as we move forward throughout the year. If you want to follow us, you're welcome to sign up to our newsletter, and in the meantime, Erin, go get him. Tim 32:56Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in, in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet encouraging you to keep on leading.

Ephesians 4:17–32I. Put Off the Old Self and Put On the New – 17-24II. Put Away Falsehood and Be Kind - 25-32

IMAGE DESCRIPTION: Saint Luke the Evangelist. Russian Eastern Orthodox icon from Russia. 18th century. Wood, tempera. Via Wikimedia Commons. https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/ultraviolet-light-reveals-scientists-hidden-bible-passage-1500-years-later (for Luke) Unique passages: https://www.julianspriggs.co.uk/pages/UniquePassages  Thanks Biblehub.com's parallel chapters tool. Words of Jesus ("All the Red Letter Scriptures") https://www.jesusbelieverjd.com/all-the-red-letter-scriptures-of-jesus-in-the-bible-kjv/    Parallel Passages in the Gospels https://www.bible-researcher.com/parallels.html#sect1     The Eye of the Needle (crossword/sudoku feedback): https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-25583,00.html#:~:text=The%20%22Eye%20of%20the%20Needle,in%20order%20to%20enter%20heaven   Camel needle w/Aquinas citation (of Anselm of Canterbury)-- Anselm of Canterbury as cited in Catena Aurea, Thomas Aquinas, CCEL Edition. https://classictheology.org/2021/10/12/through-the-eye-of-an-actual-needle-the-fake-gate-theory/    The Widow's Mite: https://numismatics.org/pocketchange/the-poor-widows-mite/    Miracles of Jesus reference list: https://sunnyhillschurch.com/3301/the-37-miracles-of-jesus-in-chronological-order/    TRANSCRIPT   Welcome to the Popeular History Podcast: History through Pope Colored Glasses. My name is Gregg and this is episode 0.21g: Sayings of the Savior Part VII: A Look at Luke.   All of these aught episodes are made to let us build our Pope-colored glasses so we can use the same lenses when we look at history together. If you're lost, start at the beginning!   Today we continue our Sayings of the Savior series with a look at Luke, covering everything Jesus said in that Gospel that we haven't yet discussed–so leaving off things like the miracles we did in 0.20 and the parables and other sayings we did in earlier Sayings of the Savior installments- so we'll be leaving you in suspense right before the concluding few chapters discussing Jesus' death and His (spoiler alert) resurrection, which we'll cover as we finish the remaining mysteries of the rosary in future Catholic worldbuilding episodes.   We already covered the first three chapters of Luke gradually from Episode 0.14 to Episode 0.19, and we'll cover the last three chapters as we talk through the Passion and the Resurrection (oops, spoilers). Which leaves Luke chapters 4 through 21 as our focus for today.   Luke 4 starts with the Temptation in the Desert. As you know by now, it's not unusual to find parallel scenes in the Gospels, especially in the so-called synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and fitting with that pattern, we saw a version of this scene in Matthew, and it actually made an appearance in Mark as well, though the Mark version was so abbreviated it didn't actually assign any dialog to Jesus or Satan so I didn't zoom in on it–after all, this is Sayings of the Savior.   Anyways, let's see Luke's temptation scene and note what differences we see from Matthew's version.   In the first temptation, Matthew has Satan referring to multiple stones Jesus could turn into bread after his 40 day fast, while Luke has just one stone. I'm sure there's commentary that discusses this difference--it's the Bible, there's commentary for everything– but unlike the Mark episode, I'm not going to go into quite that level of detail with Luke. It's worth noting that when Christ responds with   LUKE "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone.'”   GREGG he leaves off the second half of the quote from Deuteronomy 8:3   “but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.”   which Matthew had included.   Then, the second and third temptation we saw in Matthew are reversed. In Luke, Satan first tells Jesus he can give him all sorts of power if He worships him, which, I mean, I guess things would have been pretty different if Jesus had taken him up on that. Like, serious plot twist. But nah. He says   LUKE “It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only”   GREGG and then the third temptation in Luke's ordering is the testing of God's protection of Jesus. Rather than seeing if God will save Him, Jesus says:   LUKE: It is said: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'”   GREGG After seeing the devil off, Jesus begins his traveling and preaching ministry and soon enough winds up in his hometown. This is a scene that showed up in Matthew and Mark as well, the one where Jesus notes that no prophet is welcome in his hometown. In Luke it's more thorough and frankly dramatic. Long quote ahead, let's get into it:   LUKE 4 16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read,   17and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:   18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,   19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”   20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him.   21He began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”   22All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. "Isn't this Joseph's son?" they asked.   23Jesus said to them, "Surely you will quote this proverb to me: 'Physician, heal yourself!' And you will tell me, 'Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.'"   24"Truly I tell you," he continued, "no prophet is accepted in his hometown.   25I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah's time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land.   26Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon.   27And there were many in Israel with leprosy in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed--only Naaman the Syrian.”   28All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this.   29They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff.   30But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.   GREGG   So, just to recap, we have Jesus preaching a bit of a softball passage from Isaiah, promising good news to the poor. That was a long quote, so let's hear just that passage as a refresher:   “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor”   The good news part is clear enough In terms of freedom and healing, but what is the year of the Lord's favor mentioned?   By all accounts it's the Jubilee year described in Leviticus 25. You know how the seventh day is the Sabbath, a day of rest for the people? Well the seventh year was a “day”of rest for the fields, where they were to lie fallow, that is, go untilled and unworked, letting nature take its course for a year. Crops could not be harvested in an organized way, though what grows could be casually consumed by the owners, or by the needy,  or really by anyone, or by animals. Going further, personal debts among the people of Israel were cancelled in a levelling move. This custom is still in force in much of Israel, where it is called the Shmita. Of course, following the quasi-precept of “two Jews, three opinions”, application slash abrogation of this practice varies.   Anyways, the Jubilee year was not the seventh year, the Smhita I mentioned, but rather the fiftieth year, being the year after the seventh set of seven years, because symbolism. In the Jubilee year, things were even more intense, for instance going beyond personal debt forgiveness to returning sold land to the tribe of origin and to freeing Israelites who had sold themselves into slavery, basically a factory reset for society.   But note, this was only enslaved Israelites who were to be freed in the Jubilee year, the “year of the Lord's favor”. And this is where we turn back to Luke 4, because Jesus pivots the conversation away from the people of Israel to the fringes and even beyond the borders of Jewish society, to Sidon and Syria. But sending the good news to the gentiles is quite a bridge too far for his audience, who prepare to kill him in their rage. Like I said, quite the scene, and it's easy to understand why skeptics might place it as having been written after Christianity had already begun to spread among the gentiles and catch flack for doing so on the home front. My main narrative episodes haven't gotten far, but we've already started to see some of that tension, and it will only grow.   Of course, I've committed to getting my Catholic Worldbuilding stuff done before I dive back into the main narrative stuff, and to do that we need to get through the rest of Luke, and to do *that* we at least need to get through the rest of Luke 4.   After escaping the assembled mob, apparently by miraculous means of some kind because it simply says He walked right through the crowd, Jesus proceeds to do other miracles in towns around the region. The people who lived near Peter's mother-in-law must have really appreciated the assist, because in stark contrast to his hometown reception they tried to keep him from leaving. He responded:   LUKE 4 “I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent.”   GREGG Luke 5 opens with Jesus calling his disciples to follow Him. We covered the miraculous catch of fish that got Peter on board when we did our roundup of miracles, and other assorted miracles carry us through to Verse 27, when we have the Call of Matthew, known to Luke as Levi.   Matthew vs. Levi Is worth a minute. Matthew is the more common name for this disciple, and may have been his Christian name. But Levi is the name preferred here in Luke and also in Mark. One explanation I saw in multiple places is that Matthew is a Greek name while Levi is Hebrew, an explanation that suffers from being wrong, as Matthew is Hebrew for “gift of God”. A perhaps more successful explanation is that Matthew was a Levite, you know, someone from the Tribe of Levi, and things got a bit garbled. Or there was a name change that just didn't get recorded in Scripture or in any other tradition for that matter..   Matthew and Levi being separate individuals seems to be the least popular theory, so regardless of the particulars, your takeaway from this should be the same as it was when we talked about this last episode: they're the same person.   Either way, here's the call of Matthew *cough* Levi:   LUKE 5 27Jesus went out and saw a tax collector by the name of Levi sitting at his tax booth. "Follow me," Jesus said to him, 28and Levi got up, left everything and followed him.   GREGG OK, maybe I didn't need to go into all that detail for two words of Jesus, but hey, what's done is done, so “follow me” across a few more verses, where Jesus gets questioned about the company He's chosen to keep:   LUKE 5 Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” 31Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”   GREGG That's good news for us sinners, I can tell you that much.   Luke 5 finishes with some parables, which we covered in the Parables roundup earlier in this series, so on to Luke 6, which opens with the grain-picking scene we've seen a couple of times already. SYNOPTIC ROUNDUP, you know the drill [airhorn], except I'm skipping rehashing the other two accounts, just, you know, general reminder that synoptic parallels are a thing.   Anyways, let's get another dose of that “Lord of the Sabbath” action:   LUKE 6 1One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to pick some heads of grain, rub them in their hands and eat the kernels. 2Some of the Pharisees asked, "Why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?” 3Jesus answered them, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” 5Then Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”   GREGG Oh yeah, good stuff. Check my Matthew and Mark episodes if you want more commentary on it, I want to buckle down and get to John. Of course by that I mean John the Baptist, whose inquiry  gives us of the next section we need to cover. Of course, as is so often the case with these synoptic Gospels, this isn't actually a whole new section. This next chunk closely matches a parallel passage in Matthew 11. If you want to follow along, in Matthew it's the start of that Chapter, while in Luke we're at chapter 7 verse 18:   LUKE 7 18John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them, 19he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else? 20When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?'” 21At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind.   GREGG Oh look there's a batch of miracles that didn't make it into my miracles roundup, at least not directly. It's pretty vague, and it's unique to Luke. This small difference is exactly the sort of thing that gets analyzed to try to understand the relationship between Matthew and Luke, and like every other bit of Scriptural analysis you can find someone taking pretty much any conceivable stance. In any case, the reference to those timely miracles helps set the stage for the next verse, which is back to closely paralleling Matthew:   LUKE 7 22So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 23Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”   24After John's messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 25If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. 26But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27This is the one about whom it is written: "'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.' 28I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”   GREGG Now, I went back and checked my commentary on Matthew's version of this scene, and it was basically nothing. Which is fair, I was pretty deadline-crunched at the time and knew I'd be revisiting it here. But it's definitely worth noting that both passages have John the Baptist, who Jesus proclaims as a great, or even the greatest, prophet, both passages have this spiritual giant publicly uncertain about whether Jesus is the Messiah.   You could perhaps argue this was a ruse, but John seems to have been a straight shooter- that's why he's sending delegates from prison after all rather than asking himself. So it seems to be a genuine question. Which means if you're under the impression that having faith or even being the greatest prophet ever automatically means you have no remaining questions and can see all of God's plan perfectly, apparently not. After all, John had been the one ministering at Jesus' baptism, where Heaven had opened and the Spirit had come down as a dove and God's own voice had told Jesus: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”   And yet now John is asking, publicly: “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?"   There's a lesson in there on vulnerability and openness to God's plan. Or perhaps a lesson in how everyone can encounter uncertainty, no matter how certain their role seems. We'll see Jesus go even further in questioning during the Passion narrative when the time comes.   Skipping a few verses of parenthetical commentary that can only be found in Luke, let's pick back up at Luke 7 verse 31:   LUKE 7 31Jesus went on to say, "To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? 32They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other: "'We played the pipe for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not cry.' 33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”   GREGG If you aren't willing to listen, you'll find any excuse to dismiss the message. But the wise will be shown by making the right choice.   After wrapping that up, Jesus goes on a bit of a parable tour until he winds up with a bit more family awkwardness In Luke 8:19:   LUKE 8 19 Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. 20 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting CORRECT  to see you.”   21 He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice.”   GREGG Ouch, but also yay, Jesus doesn't put His earthly family above others. Which is good news If you didn't start out as His family, though it might sting a little if you did.   The rest of Luke 8 is a bunch of previously-discussed miracles, so we're on to Luke 9:   LUKE 9 9 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3 He told them: “Take nothing for the journey—no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra shirt. 4 Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5 If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.” 6 So they set out and went from village to village, proclaiming the good news and healing people everywhere.   GREGG This Isn't the first or even the second time we've seen these basic marching orders, but it actually is the last as John is, well, a very different Gospel, as we'll see in our next worldbuilding episode.   Anyways, after feeding the 5,000 we get to verse 18, where Luke's version of Peter's confession begins. As with Mark, don't get too excited:   LUKE 9 18 Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, “Who do the crowds say I am?”   19 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life.”   20 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”   Peter answered, “God's Messiah.”   21 Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone.”   GREGG   So that's three for three on synoptic Gospels having Peter describe Jesus as the Messiah. Only Matthew did the keys thing, though. Also note the messianic secret trope popping up again- Jesus will apparently reverse his gag order after the Passion, because the Book of Acts- which was also written by Luke, or at least by whoever wrote Luke, will be all about telling everyone Jesus is the Messiah.   Immediately after that exchange, Jesus starts talking about his future, and it's not rosy:   LUKE 9 22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”   23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.   27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”   GREGG This is all closely paralleling Matthew, and Mark as well, though as usual Mark was a bit shorter, skipping the last verse about some standing there not tasting death before they see the Kingdom. Again, you can see why early Christians were basically a doomsday cult expecting the end sooner rather than later. Certainly *your* end will come, so, you know, keep that in mind.   We're going to skip the transfiguration since that's its own mystery of the rosary with its own episode, and there's another miracle account after that. So skipping along, come with me to Luke 9:43:   LUKE 9 While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.   GREGG If my episode on Mark is still fresh in your mind, you may already predict where this is going, as this particular section is a close Mark and Luke parallel. Matthew split things up in different ways but for both Mark and Luke the conversation with a child and being the greatest in the kingdom follows immediately after Jesus states what will become of him, leaving the disciples too afraid to ask.   Let's carry on with the next verse:   LUKE 9 46 An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47 Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48 Then he said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For it is the one who is least among you all who is the greatest.”   GREGG The next verse is a bit of a random aside, but an important one as I mentioned before when it came up in Mark:   LUKE 9 49 “Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”   50 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”   GREGG Skipping ahead to verse 57, we have some stray sayings that underline the urgency of following Christ:   LUKE 9 57 As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.”   58 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”   59 He said to another man, “Follow me.”   But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”   60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”   61 Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.”   62 Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”   GREGG A bit harsh, but Jesus is like that sometimes.   Luke 10 opens with an long section on Jesus' next project, sending out seventy-two disciples, or seventy according to some manuscripts. Some may recall a previous seventy vs seventy-two discussion when we talked about the Septuagint, and I expect there's a reason for that parallel, but either way that's not the particular rabbit hole I want to go down here today. Instead, I want to note that we can have some fun with this Luke-only passage, and that we wouldn't be the first to do so.   You see, seventy is a long but not completely impractical number of folks to list off, and while Luke doesn't give names, there are plenty of extrabiblical sources assigning names and biographical details to some or all of the seventy. This passage discussing Jesus sending out seventy disciples was especially useful for ancient or wannabe ancient dioceses that couldn't trace back to a specific Apostle. Instead, lo and behold, turns out their founder was one of the unnamed seventy. Boom presto, a biblical founder!   Of course that's the skeptical read, it could well be that some such stories are true. But there are enough names assigned to the 70 that they certainly aren't *all* true, kind of like how there are at least four heads of John the Baptist floating around. In the end, as a reminder, Catholics are generally free to believe or disbelieve in the authenticity and or efficacy of any particular relic or tradition as long as they accept the fundamental teachings and authority of the Catholic Church.   In terms of the promised fun we can have, I'd like to announce a little side project, a game where I share a story of someone spreading Christianity and the next episode we'll discuss whether it's real or made up and what the sources are.   We'll start that at the end of this episode. For now, let's hear about the seventy slash seventy-two:   LUKE 10 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.   5 “When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.' 6 If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.   GREGG Someone tell the Jehovah's Witnesses…   LUKE 10 8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.' 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.' 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.   13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.   16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”   17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”   18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.    GREGG That verse is the root of some of the quirky snake-handling churches in Appalachia by the way…   LUKE 10 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”   21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.   22 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”   23 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. 24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”   GREGG   Those last two verses touch on an interesting discussion throughout Church history, namely the fate of those who lived before the time of Christ.   Could they be saved? Observant Jews of the time, yes, certainly. But those who never encountered Christianity or Judaism because of when or where they lived historically has proven a bit of an awkward question for the Church. The “well you better go tell them” impulse has long served to recruit missionaries, but on the other end many did and do argue that it hardly seems fair to expect folks to follow what through no fault of their own they've never been exposed to. Granted it's less of an issue nowadays when very few folks worldwide haven't at least heard of Christ, but the question remains. Certainly the Catholic Church insists that all humans who are saved are saved through Christ, there's no other way. And yet the Church also affirms that God is not bound by time, as evidenced by the defined belief required of all Catholics in the Immaculate Conception, where the Blessed Virgin Mary was preserved from all stain of sin from the moment of her conception. Obviously that took place before the Incarnation, so it's not like the years going from BC to AD is a firm barrier for the saving action of Christ in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Indeed, by implication, the previously mentioned Jews who awaited the grand opening of heaven were able to do so by the work of Christ according to the Church, though given how many horrible things have been done to Jews in the name of Christ through the years that isn't something that tends to be emphasized.   In the end, I think you probably know me well enough by now to correctly guess that I land on the hopeful end of this discussion. By one means or another, all through Christ, I hope for all. But to be very clear, that's my hope, and for what it's worth. Pope Francis' hope as well according to a recent interview, but it's not established Church teaching.   Skipping past the parable of the Good Samaritan, let's go to verse 38 for Martha and Mary, an exchange that's my go-to analogy for the two basic types of service to the Church, with Martha being the “active” type and Mary the “contemplative”.   LUKE 38 As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. 39 She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet listening to what he said. 40 But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, “Lord, don't you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!”   41 “Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, 42 but few things are needed—or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”   GREGG   The first part of Luke 11 covers Luke's take on the Our Father-covered in 0.21b- and the Friend at Midnight covered in our parables roundup. So skip along to Verse 9, which parallels Matthew's Sermon on the Mount, so it will sound familiar:   LUKE 11 9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.   11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”   GREGG Skip ahead again, this time to verse 24, because verses 14-23 were covered under miracles:   LUKE 24 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.' 25 When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. 26 Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.”   27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”   28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”   GREGG There's a reminder that relapsing can be worse than the initial lapse, and a nice compliment session preserved only in Luke. But then the tone shifts, and the rest of the chapter has parallels in Matthew:   LUKE 11 29 As the crowds increased, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It asks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30 For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the people of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom; and now something greater than Solomon is here. 32 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and now something greater than Jonah is here   GREGG Then there's a comparatively light lamp analogy, which I kind of covered during the Sermon on the Mount commentary, but not in its entirety, so I'm giving it all to you here:   LUKE 11 33 “No one lights a lamp and puts it in a place where it will be hidden, or under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, so that those who come in may see the light. 34 Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are healthy, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are unhealthy, your body also is full of darkness. 35 See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. 36 Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be just as full of light as when a lamp shines its light on you.”   GREGG And now as we get back to a more challenging tone, and as Jesus targets the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law specifically, I want to give the same general note that I gave for the parallel verses in Matthew: do not take these verses out of context to justify antisemitism, which has no place in the Catholic Church, or really in the world. For one thing, keep in mind Jesus is a Jew speaking to fellow Jews here.   Anyways, let's continue: LUKE   37 When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38 But the Pharisee was surprised when he noticed that Jesus did not first wash before the meal.   39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.   42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.   43 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and respectful greetings in the marketplaces.   44 “Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which people walk over without knowing it.”   45 One of the experts in the law answered him, “Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also.”   46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.   47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.”   GREGG Let's take a moment to reflect on that last line: “this generation will be held responsible for it all”. It's surprisingly harsh, even for a surprisingly harsh Jesus, for Him to hold the generation he was talking to responsible for all the blood of all the prophets that has been shed from the beginning of the world. But there it is. I can see a case being made for these verses as part of a theological justification for original sin, though really the key verse for that is Romans 5:12, which we'll talk about later. Either way, given the emphasis on “this generation”, I don't think that's what's going on here, as original sin doesn't like, target specific generations.   So, what's up? Why is Jesus focusing in on the present generation, at least the present generation as of His lifetime?   Well, there's the key. It's His generation. Jesus is there, and all of the sin of history, past, present, and future, will be brought to account through Him.   Jesus, as always, is the answer. It's not that the world was especially sinful in the first century AD. But the answer to all sin was walking the earth then. *That* is why it's a generation that deserves a particular singling out.   Of course, that reflection- my own theological musing I should say, which is a dangerous thing to do and I defer to any correction that may come my way– anyways that reflection should not detract from the straightforward fact that Jesus is really taking the Pharisees and Teachers of the law to task here   LUKE 11 52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”   53 When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say.   1Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy   2There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.   3What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs   GREGG Fortunately no one in our day falls into religious hypocrisy anymore, right? …right?   Anyways, the next few verses, once again paralleled with Matthew, put things into context, while weaving in hints of future persecution:   LUKE 12 4 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. 8 “I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. 9 But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. 11 “When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.” GREGG After a break for a parable, the overall theme resumes in verse 22:   LUKE 12 22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?   27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.   32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.   GREGG Did you catch one of the most challenging things Jesus says?   “Sell your possessions and give to the poor”   This isn't the only place Jesus says that, but it hits a little harder when he's giving it as general counsel rather than as specific advice to a rich young man looking for specific advice on how to live well. If you have more than you need, your excess needs to go to those who lack. You will ultimately have to account not only for what you did, but what you didn't do. If you've seen Schindler's List, think of his regret after all he's done, that he didn't sell the car to do more. When your life is done, what regrets will You have?   I know I need to do more, part of this project is to remind myself of that and to embarrass myself publicly for my shortcomings. Listen to Jesus' message, don't get hung up on the messenger.   A few parables take us forward to verse 49, a source of top notch dad jokes about our matchless king. But Jesus goes beyond that, preaching division. His message is hard, it will not be universally popular.   LUKE 12 49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”   54 He said to the crowd: “When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It's going to rain,' and it does. 55 And when the south wind blows, you say, ‘It's going to be hot,' and it is. 56 Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?   57 “Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled on the way, or your adversary may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”   LUKE 13 13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”   GREGG That excerpt took us into Luke 13, which continues with parables and a miracle until verse 23, which is, frankly, basically the start of another parable, but not one I covered in the parables roundup so we'll do it here.   LUKE 13 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”   He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.'   “But he will answer, ‘I don't know you or where you come from.'   26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'   27 “But he will reply, ‘I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'   28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”   GREGG I recently saw one of the first verses in that passage cited as pointing towards the idea of Hell being full. After all,   “many I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.”   Is fairly clear, and even accounting for Jesus' action as the owner of the house, in this and elsewhere ultimately those who are out on the cold are truly out in the cold. As much as I freely admit I don't get the logic of hell being populated, I also freely admit that the idea of it being empty is an exegetical stretch given passages like this. In the end, God reigns and I do not. I know what God asks of me, and I do it. As much as I like to know and to talk, I accept that I don't have and cannot have all knowledge.   Anyways, Jesus continues with a lament over Jerusalem we saw in Matthew, which Luke supplies with a little more context:   LUKE 13 31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.”   32 He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' 33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!   34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'”   GREGG And now with that note looking to Jesus' future- something he definitely keeps doing throughout the Gospels- we have something of an intermission, because Luke 14, 15, and 16 are all so full of parables that we've already covered along with all of Jesus' words from those chapters. Luke 17 opens with yet another parable, and then a miracle, so we're actually regrouping at Luke 17:20, where Jesus talks about the upcoming kingdom and talks about the end times, always fuel for a discussion, though I am skeptical about how productive such discussions are, given how Jesus opens the discussion by noting that the coming of the kingdom cannot be observed. And really, if there's something you'd be doing differently if you knew the world was ending--honestly that's probably something you should be doing *now*, because your life will end very soon in the grand scheme of things, and you can't rule out today.   Anyways, let's resume:   LUKE 17 20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,' or ‘There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”   22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!' or ‘Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.   26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.   28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.   30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot's wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36]   [KJV] 36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.   37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.   He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”   GREGG Oh, hope you don't mind me throwing in a little bit more KJV there. I would have announced it in advance but I was kind of on a roll with that transition and didn't want to kill the vibe. I'm no scripture scholar but my guess is the reason the KJV keep having verses the NIV is skipping is because back in the day folks were more reluctant to identify a passage as an addition due to manuscript evidence, you know, just in case. Better safe than sorry. But again, I'm no expert. Now, if I ever do get a budget for this beyond basic hosting fees I do have an expert in mind, so periodic reminder I do have a Popeular Patreon kicking around somewhere.   In any event, that's it for Luke 17, and we can basically skip the first half of Luke 18, since that's a couple parables and related stuff we've already addressed.   In Luke 18 verse 18, we've got a familiar question, not only familiar because it already came up in both Matthew and Mark, but it's actually already come up in Luke as well, as part of the runup to the parable of the Good Samaritan. That parable was split off from the other synoptics, being present only in Luke despite being extremely famous. But this time around, the passage is a close parallel to both Matthew and Mark. Let's go!   LUKE 18 18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'” 21 “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said. 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24 Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” 27 Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.” 28 Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!” 29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.” GREGG We treated the “eye of the needle” thing almost embarrassingly thoroughly last episode, so refer back to my Mark commentary for detail on that. The ending simply promising a much greater reward for giving things up to follow Jesus is a mild tweak of the “first shall be last” thing we saw concluding this passage in Matthew and Mark, for what it's worth.   Next up, Jesus gives the third prediction of his death he's given in Luke:   LUKE 18   31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”   34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.   GREGG Jesus predicts his death three times in each of the synoptic Gospels, so that being the third and final prediction is a sign we're getting close.   Chapter 18 finishes with a miracle, so we're on to Chapter 19, which opens with the second account of Jesus calling a tax collector to follow him present in Luke. And unlike the call of Matthew slash Levi, this call of Zaccheus is *only* present in Luke.   LUKE 19 19 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.   5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.   7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”   8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”   9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”   GREGG I mentioned a bit ago we were getting close to the end of things for today, and another sign that we're getting close is that the next thing we get to cover, after skipping another parable, is Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, which is liturgically covered in the Palm Sunday observances that kick off Holy Week, aka the week leading up to Easter Sunday. Let's hear what Luke has to say, starting at verse 28:   LUKE 19 28 After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. 29 As he approached Bethphage and Bethany at the hill called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, 30 “Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 31 If anyone asks you, ‘Why are you untying it?' say, ‘The Lord needs it.'”   32 Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. 33 As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, “Why are you untying the colt?”   34 They replied, “The Lord needs it.”   35 They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. 36 As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road.   37 When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:   38 “Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!”   “Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”   39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”   40 “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”   41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you.”   45 When Jesus entered the temple courts, he began to drive out those who were selling. 46 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be a house of prayer'; but you have made it ‘a den of robbers.'”   47 Every day he was teaching at the temple. But the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the leaders among the people were trying to kill him. 48 Yet they could not find any way to do it, because all the people hung on his words.   GREGG From the classic handwaive of “the master has need of it” to the admittedly brief account of Jesus driving the moneychangers out of the Temple, there's a lot of good stuff in there, but nothing especially new, all things we basically saw in Matthew and Mark.   Similarly, the opening verses of Luke 20 are also close parallels of the other synoptic gospels. But hey, you know the drill, let's hear Luke tell it:   LUKE 20 One day as Jesus was teaching the people in the temple courts and proclaiming the good news, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, together with the elders, came up to him. 2 “Tell us by what authority you are doing these things,” they said. “Who gave you this authority?”   3 He replied, “I will also ask you a question. Tell me: 4 John's baptism—was it from heaven, or of human origin?”   5 They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,' he will ask, ‘Why didn't you believe him?' 6 But if we say, ‘Of human origin,' all the people will stone us, because they are persuaded that John was a prophet.”   7 So they answered, “We don't know where it was from.”   8 Jesus said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.”   GREGG The next few verses are taken up by the Parable of the Talents, so we'll skip that and go on to more close synoptic parallel passages starting in Verse 20. If you're wondering, we're parallelling Matthew 22 and Mark 12 here:   LUKE 20 20 Keeping a close watch on him, they sent spies, who pretended to be sincere. They hoped to catch Jesus in something he said, so that they might hand him over to the power and authority of the governor. 21 So the spies questioned him: “Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not show partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. 22 Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?”   23 He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24 “Show me a denarius. Whose image and inscription are on it?”   “Caesar's,” they replied.   25 He said to them, “Then give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's.”   26 They were unable to trap him in what he had said there in public. And astonished by his answer, they became silent.   GREGG Yes, as you'll recall, giving God what is God's means giving God everything, but at the same time, like, pay your taxes.   The parallels continue with the next section   LUKE 20 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question. 28 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married a woman and died childless. 30 The second 31 and then the third married her, and in the same way the seven died, leaving no children. 32 Finally, the woman died too. 33 Now then, at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?”   34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”   39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!” 40 And no one dared to ask him any more questions. 41 Then Jesus said to them, “Why is it said that the Messiah is the son of David? 42 David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: “‘The Lord said to my Lord:     “Sit at my right hand 43 until I make your enemies     a footstool for your feet.”' 44 David calls him ‘Lord.' How then can he be his son?” GREGG   Yes, all closely paralleling Matthew 22 and Mark 12 still, both of which we've discussed. For what it's worth, John is going to be something quite different.   In any event, the last bit of Luke 20 is absent from Matthew, only parallelled in Mark 12:   LUKE 20 45 While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples, 46 “Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 47 They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”   GREGG Luke 21 opens with another section we that we didn't see in Matthew but covered in Mark, namely the Widow's Offering:   LUKE 21 As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. 2 He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. 3 “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. 4 All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”   GREGG I do love the message there, namely that God sees and accounts for effort when it comes to our actions, including our giving. Like I said, the Widow's Offering was in Mark too so I went into some more detail last episode.   As the chapter continues, the parallels with Matthew resume, now in Matthew Chapter 24, and Mark 14. Overall the theme is the end times, fairly appropriate given the transition to the Passion that will come in the next chapter    LUKE 21 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”   7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”   8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,' and, ‘The time is near.' Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”

A buffet episode!  In which I tackle as many questions/requests from you as I can in 20 minutes.What you'll hear:How to protect yourself from overworking/overtraining when you're committed to a program that encourages that behavior?  If you want to ask for an amended program and want to back that up with data, here's something you can do 4:40On navigating your ego and sitting at the big kid's table 6:20Listen here to the episode of The Movement Maestro that I reference!  10:4911:28 Next question is from wonderful Emma, go follow her!  Why are we so hard on ourselves?  Why do we get in our own way all the time?A question about how to create a semblance of structure for yourself, especially if you have ADHD 16:32I reference this episode on seasonality if you'd like more thoughts on how it looks in practice Don't go back to sleep.xoRachelSign up here for monthly blasts and functional wooFind me on InstagramSupport this podcast on Patreon

Welcome to another insightful episode of the Sweet on Leadership Podcast. Tim Sweet hosts leadership coach Jeff Massone. Their conversation delves into the complexities of personal and professional growth, focusing on overcoming distractions and fostering positive influences. They start by dissecting the pervasive impact of social media and continuous news cycles on our mindset and productivity.Throughout their discussion, Jeff underscores the importance of intentional relationships, urging listeners to surround themselves with supportive and motivating individuals. He provides strategies for minimizing negative influences both in professional settings and personal lives, emphasizing the concept of signal-to-noise ratio—where the key lies in filtering out distractions to prioritize valuable information. Tim and Jeff challenge conventional corporate training methods, advocating instead for personalized coaching that aligns with individual strengths and aspirations.Drawing from insights in Marcus Buckingham's "Love and Work," they highlight the significance of understanding unique differences in job satisfaction. They explore Patrick Lencioni's team-building strategies, emphasizing their adaptability to foster deeper team cohesion and commitment. Ultimately, Tim and Jeff stress that effective leadership isn't about rigid adherence to rules but about cultivating individualized paths toward leadership fluency and competency. Through intentional choices and strategic focus, listeners are encouraged to navigate their leadership journey with clarity and purpose.About Jeff MassoneJeff Massone is a dynamic and accomplished leader with a proven 20-year track record as a project leader in corporate America, including professional training as a coach, trainer, and speaker on leadership through the John Maxwell Team.Resources discussed in this episode:Love and Work by Marcus BuckinghamPatrick LencioniJohn MaxwellGood Will HuntingLeaders Eat Last by Simon SinekTED Talks--Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Jeff Massone | Prepared Leader Consulting WebsiteInstagramFacebookLinkedIn--TranscriptJeff 00:01How do you replace the void that comes from not binge-watching television shows? And from not, you know, watching Social Media, yes, get a coach. But start your own self-development. You become an expert in leadership by reading a leadership book a month, and just work with it. Like, you know, I could never give away my books because I have all my notes in them. They're reminding me of a situation. Tim 00:26I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, area leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, welcome to the Sweet on Leadership Podcast, episode 37. Tim 01:00Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Sweet on Leadership podcast, I am really happy to be inviting a brand new friend that was introduced to me just a few days ago. But I mean, man, Jeff, we've hit it off, I think. Professionally, you and I are just, we're on the same wavelength. Jeff 01:16100%. I mean, we had talked the other day, I had kind of really wished we were recording at that point. But here we are today. And you know, really ready to dive in.  Tim 01:26The term you use, which I really loved was leadership geek, if we're going to geek out about something geeking out on leadership is one of my favourite things. So, when you and I had a chance to talk, I was really enthused by what you stand for, and how much it really fits with my own thinking. I've always said that the thing that fuels me and moves me forward is I hate watching people struggle. I hate watching people stuck. And you told me a little bit about distraction. Tell us all about that. What caused you to this work? Jeff 01:57It's so interesting. So, we live in such a distracted world, when you think about what we have to do as workers right? You know, whatever job that you have, you know, whether you have an office job, whether you're out doing construction, a teacher, cop doesn't really matter. You know, we have this ever-present social media, this phone, this leash that we have attached to us, that when you watch people, you're watching them scroll, right? They're just scrolling on social media, with no real purpose, right? And, you know, we know a lot of those distractions, you know, are actually making you angry, fearful, making you sad. And, you know, that's going to do nothing for what you're trying to do for your career. Right? So, that's number one. And then the kissing cousins that are is 24/7 cable news, you know, that does the same thing, the anger, the fear, the anxiety, the depression, and you know, it just takes your eye off the ball, right? You're trying to, you know, in my world, project management, you know, launch a new product, right? Or trying to come up with a new product design, no matter what you're doing in your world. There that distraction is, if you let it. I work with people, I tell them right away. So, why don't we do this? Why don't try this at least six weeks diet, have no social media just take it off? Right? Well, you know, I need to– no, you can have it on your computer, but just take it off your phone, right? Let's try that. Let's try not looking at the news for that same amount of time. And what you do is the best thing you can do is replace that time because you realize there's going to be a void. You're so used to reaching for that phone to look at Instagram or looking at LinkedIn or looking at Facebook. This time you're like, Oh, there's nothing there. Once you replace it with a TED Talk. Tim 03:35Yeah. Something positive. Jeff 03:39Something positive that's gonna help your career. You know, for me, I'm sitting there, and I watch. I'm like, wow, you know, 24/7 News. You know, even the one in the left and the right, right, even though I agree with, it's not helping you be a better parent, right? It's not helping you be a better business owner, be a better team leader. It's helping you with exactly nothing. Tim 04:01So, really being intentional about where we direct our attention. And what we consume. My family is full of teachers, my sister has this great saying and she says little pots have big handles. And I don't think it's just kids, I think we have big handles too. And if we let the wrong something in, well, it can stay there. Or it can at least occupy space that could be better used. And one of the things that you'd said in our lead up to this and I know we're gonna get there again. But this distraction isn't just happening that's externally sometimes this can be distraction by the wrong tools or things that were handed within our pursuit of management, or leadership, or sales, or our own business. And there's things that are presented as answers, but they can also be distractions, they can also take us away from the things that are going to provide real value. And that's something that I really like that line of thought. Jeff 04:58For those that are listening here, you know, and obviously, we know, we're well aware that Tim and I are that way to be able to promote this yes, we have to use social media, right? You're going to be seeing, you know, some promotions on Instagram, you know, LinkedIn places. But at the same time, I've worked with people who, again, use social media, and that's how they make money. And they're not on the platforms save maybe a half hour in the morning and a half hour at night. Because they know that distraction that at least, so if people who are actively using social media to bring in money, and so they're putting food on the table, aren't engaging in the platforms all day long, that should tell you something, right? You know, often, they'll hire people, like if they're reaching out to you for their services, it's not really them, right? It's their team, even though it's under their name. So, again, be mindful of that fact that, you know, even in that case, that extreme case of usership on social media, they're not using it any degree that most people are using it today at this time.  Tim 06:02So, what I hear you saying is that we have to control and be mindful and intentional around what we're bringing in. And I like the phrase signal to noise ratio, we need to turn up the signal and the quality of those signals, and we need to really be mindful of and try to lessen the noise, right? And so we have all this external noise. When we think about coaching, and the pursuit of it, or the pursuit of personal development, career development, all of these things, what are some of the specific sources of noise that you encounter? And maybe I'll ask you first to talk about what's really common among people that you run into? Jeff 06:45The biggest source of noise is what I used to call it water cooler talk, right? You're kind of going to the water cooler, and you hear all the negative things that somebody feels about the company, somebody feels about their life. And, you know, that's, you know, again, doesn't serve you in terms of, you know, what's entering your mind. Other things, that's just really important. I mean, you have to guard what's going into your mind, you know, what a lot of people don't understand is, you know, that your thoughts, impact your emotions, your emotions, impact your actions, and then your actions then lead to your results. But what people don't realize is, you know, what starts with the thoughts, I mean, you're being fed something. So, that's, we have to figure out like, what am I going to stop this? So yes, we talked about social media. Yes, we talked about 24/7 news. But then there's the negative people, right? So, who are you around, you know, in, you know, in your business or in the workplace, and are they you know, a positive force? Do you feel good when you've actually walked away with 10-minute conversation? Do you feel motivated? Or do you not? So, I mean, I think that's really, you know, something that's very important for people to understand, and I didn't realize it, right, you know, you go into, you know, you start a job, and then you kind of just kind of get around folks, and, you know, you have to stop that like, as soon as you start hearing something that's not positive, you have to go out and say, Alright, you know, let me just find a new tribe. Right? And that's just so that's just so important. Because you know, then it gets, you know, you have this other negativity that's getting in your head and that's hard. The hardest thing I'll say to Tim, is when the negative noise are your family and friends. Tim 08:24Oh, yeah, that can be rough. And as you were talking about whether it's at the home, whether it's at the watercooler you're saying, one of the characteristics of that negative talk that I've noticed a lot is that it can develop a life of its own, it can become this myth. And these stories, and these opinions that people forget where they come from, but they turn into these self-perpetuating doom tornadoes, and stigmas, and stories that people now have to contend with, when we don't even know exactly if they're based, in fact, any more, but they become the popular rhetoric because maybe it allows people to externalize other nerves and stuff that they're feeling. And so it fuels this thing like a really negative fire, and the ability to spot that, not contribute to it, and then pull oneself out of it is really important. But speak to me a little bit about this, because what I've noticed is when one chooses to pull oneself out of that, they can then incur the wrath of all the believers, right? They can then become the target and that often is enough motivation for people to stay at that water cooler and in that tribe. So, what do you suggest when a person feels exposed by trying to out the negative story?  Jeff 09:47There's a certain finesse that you can do that. I mean, you certainly don't say wow, you're the most negative person I've ever heard, please never talk to me again. You just politely sort of like, you know, move on and then slowly kind of ween yourself off hard, right? Like, it's like you're not, you know, you'd be like, wow, like, you know what, what just happened there. And you just try to find yourself and this is hard, you know, I come from, you know, larger organizations, you know, fortune 500 pharmaceutical companies. And when we were in the office consistently, at least where I work, there was a lot of opportunity to just find a new tribe, you know, when you're in a really small company, that can be very, very difficult. Right? But, you know, in general, you know, what you're trying to look for is you're trying to get around folks that are where you want to be. Tim 10:30Yeah, what I say your success and your place in life is the sum average of those you choose to surround yourself. Right? Jeff 10:37Right? They usually say, I think it's like the average of the five people you hang out with, you know, and again, you so, it's almost like, you have to do it and like little silos, right? The workplace silo, and then like, you're outside of work silos. Like who are you hanging out with, you know, outside of work? Are you hanging out with strivers, right? You know, which is awesome, you know, are you hanging out with people that are just, like, happy to punch the clock, so to speak, and you know, get in/get out. We actually, you know, the best thing you can do is hanging out again, like I said, you know, if you're a business owner, you hang out with a business owner that's been doing it, you know, in his or her realm for, you know, 5, 10, 15 years and has scaled and has grown, and you're like, Oh, my God, you make what per month? You're not gonna have, you're gonna have much, you're just gonna have much different conversations. I think one of the things that I heard years and years ago, I think I said to John Maxwell, that was, you know, people are literally around the same table with the same people talking about the same thing. And they're wondering why they're in the same position in their life, particularly from a career perspective. Tim 11:43I mean, certain types of energies are like air and water for people. And I used to use the term water hole, because it was like, the water hole that I needed, the water that I needed to drink was different than other animals. I want to find people that are in search of the same water holes that I am, that are in search of tapping into those same energies. And so, for instance, I do a lot of work with startup companies. There's a specific energy around that. I do a lot of work with universities, there's a specific energy around that. And I do a lot of work in sports entertainment, sports event company, that is a specific type of energy. Now, they're all different venues and different spaces. But the energy that I get out of it, that I look for is this is a compatible waterhole for lack of a better word. And that water hole is not comfort. And that water hole is not safety. And that water hole is not leisure, that water hole is, you know, if I think about the mountain biking race company that I'm part of, find what's on the inside-outside is their tagline that speaks to me on levels that I can't even properly articulate all the time. So, look for those sources of people that are out for the same thing, that are fueled on the same sustenance, and are with you in the hunt, and with you in the gather.  Jeff 13:08Yeah, it's interesting. And I love how you gave those different examples, right of the startup or the university, you're not going to one specific avatar, right? But you know, the energy of the people that you're trying to get here, that positive energy, that energy of creation, right? You know, who you are around, right? Like, when you start talking to people, I love talking to successful business owners, right? It's a different energy than, say, a corporate executive. Right? And, you know, maybe the bank accounts look similar, right, in terms of their annual income. But it's so very different. When you talk to somebody who has, you know, started, like, you know, we're a startup, you know, then they're a company, and then they scale their company, and that they're continuing to grow, you know, because what they're doing, what they have done, you know, is they've got their own coaches to say, hey, you know, mentors, you know, to see how they, how can they get to the next level, okay, you know, we're a six-figure company, and now we're a seven-figure company, eight-figure, and now we're trying to get to nine, right? And it's, you know, they don't just stop, you know, whereas, you know, as successful executive, you know, they fly to a certain level, right? And executive can mean different things to different people, you know, but, you know, maybe you're making, you know, 150, or 200. And that's where you'd like to live there. And then you're just kind of just there, right? You know, what are you making 300 or 400, as an executive, you're just kind of there, right? And if you're not looking to grow or scalel that you're just like looking to hold on to it, which is different. Tim 14:33It's very different. Jeff 14:34Then trying to grow something. Tim 14:38In the back catalogue, we've had two shows now with my good friend, Richard Young. Now Richard was on the Own The Podium committee for Canada and then the UK and then New Zealand, and he continues to run his practice out of New Zealand. Well, I mean, Richard is one of my favourite people ever. But his PhD and his research is all about what predicts a person from consistently meddling at the Olympics, or within higher sport competition, and a huge part of what Richard teaches is it's not about what we add, it's about what we let go of, you know, and many of the people that have worked with me will talk about the folly of additive logic versus reductive logic or transformation versus additive change. Anyway, when we look at the people we want to surround ourselves with, one of the hallmarks that I see in people that are moving easily in the strata that we want to achieve is that they're moving easily in the strata, they're moving, it's the path of least resistance for them. It's the thing that is that they've let loose of a lot of the preconceptions and the shoulds that a lot of popular business books or courses teach that you have to do. And they've just focused in on the right kind of signal, right? And they focused in on the things that that bring results. And that leaves them all sorts of room to be themselves and to believe what they're going to believe and go in and live their lives. Because they don't overcomplicate things, because they figured out that formula that they are enough. And often the people that are striving, which is a great place to be to strive, right? It's funny how often striving means doing less, it means getting to a point where it just feels easy. Or at least comparatively easy, I guess is what I would say. Jeff 16:32I love how you brought up, you know, I have to look into Richard Young and his work, you know, but as a consistent mentalist, I mean, my son is a competitive swimmer. You know, he's in high school level right now. And we're watching the US Olympic trials right now. And my guess is when this airs, it'll be the right before, right during the Olympics. Like when you see the people that this is their third trip, right? Like, what is driving that? Like, what are they doing, you know, like, quote-unquote, differently? You know, and people want to study that. And people want to hear from that, you know, and you're talking about a high-level elite athlete, or you're talking about, you know, a super successful business owner, business person like Bezos or Musk, right? Branson? Wow, like, you know, but people see the end, right? They don't see the unglamorous start, they don't see the equally unglamorous kind of middle. People see the end, right? And I think they get so end-focused, right? You know, you have folks who say, I want to be a VP by 30. Okay, for who do we want? You know, what are you looking to give up to be able to do that? So, it's, it's really interesting when you study excellence, and I also say to like, when you have those people, you know, those drivers, those super elite athletes, and it's no different than professional sports, and that, you know, here in the United States, NFL, or major league baseball, those elite athletes can pay, you know, 10s, in some cases, hundreds of millions of dollars to do a sport. The elite Olympic athletes are different. Yes, they get sponsorships and whatnot, the top of the top, most of them aren't getting anything. Tim 18:07There's not a lot of sponsorship for certain sports. Jeff 18:10Which means that after they're done, they gotta go do something. Tim 18:13Yeah, or do it while they're, while they're training and everything else. Jeff 18:17And I often think of like, I haven't seen a lot of elite athletes in a non-commissioned based role in corporate, you know, maybe somebody's hidden, once this is out could say, hey, you know, but I say that, because we don't have a meritocracy, right now, in the corporate world. People are getting promotions and whatnot, a lot of times for other reasons than accomplishing things. And I would imagine that, you know, the elite athlete trying to, you know, get into the corporate American watching this. It's a direct conflict, you know, with what it is that they've done throughout their young life, you know, and how they've achieved, you know, put in the work and achieved and then that's how you get, you know, your accomplishments. And that's not corporate America, it's more of the entrepreneurial world, right? I mean, what you're putting in and what you're getting out, high risk, high reward, but it's very different. You know, and it's just, I said that a while ago on the clubhouse app, you know, put it out to one of those clubhouse rooms, and people were just they sat there and thought they're like, yeah, that there was nobody in that room so to speak, that could come up with somebody that they knew that, you know, we're in a not again, non commissioned role, that I just don't think it exists because it's just diametrically opposed to their lifestyle.  Tim 19:30I think one of the the outcomes of this episode should be, I think we need to A. talk to our listeners who do you know, that has been elite in their sport and has managed to translate that into performance in business, or academically or some other pursuit? I do know that there are several people that I've been exposed to that have been ex-CFL football players or ex-NFL or Olympic people in everything from curling, to fencing, to, you know, but they've been achievement-focused to cycling, right? And the key with that, and it brings us to another sort of interesting crossroad here is that they were either lucky enough, or had guidance enough to be able to maintain their growth from a business professionals perspective maybe, but also had opportunities to join institutions and organizations that could see the value of their life experiences, and apply that into certain roles, rather than getting stuck on a tenure track of being a subject matter expert, which is why leadership is often a great place for these certain people to enter if they don't have a technical skill, or proficiency. But it raises an interesting point when we sort of circle back around to the focus that a person needs to maintain. There's so much in the area of team development and personal development, which is myopic on either a single answer, like so say it's a program. But that program assumes that you have a standard type of development through the beginning of your career, that you've gone to school, and you've got a degree and you've got all these things. And then there's this magic bullet process, which is suddenly going to answer everything. Whereas really, you know, one of the first key things that I note when I coach and facilitate to large groups is, people are all incredibly different, there will be no, this seems like a bit of a dumb thing to say. But when you have people that are starting from such different places from an education, experience, lifestyle, socio-economic, gender, could be race, can be all of these different elements that make them who they are. And we try to give them a vanilla product that's going to suddenly be translated, you know, it just doesn't work. I mean, scientifically, that's lunacy, we've got so many different variables that we need. Sure. I mean, there's nothing wrong with a good program, but then we need to go bespoke, we need to be able to customize or give them the tools to customize it to their needs. Jeff 22:15That's absolutely right. And I know, you know, in our previous conversation, I mentioned a book I just finished by Marcus Buckingham Love and Work. And, you know, he goes into a lot of topics, but one of them is the uniqueness of people. People are so unique that people in the same role love different things about it. In his book, he goes into housekeepers at Disney, you know, and interviewed them when he was with Gallup. Right? He was just trying to figure out, you know, like, okay, like, Well, what do you love about your job? Right, you know, and all the different things. So, when you extrapolate that to, you know, any job function, you see that uniqueness, and to your point, you know, this one magic pill, you know, one thing that I've seen in corporate is, you know, the onsite, you know, the two-day on-site training, or the off-site, you know, whichever way– Tim 23:04Pre-packaged, pre-scheduled, yeah. Jeff 23:08And it doesn't work. You know, corporations are spending, like six figures, depending on the size of the corporation, maybe even more to deliver this kind of, like, here it is, this is what leadership is, then they wonder why things haven't changed, people don't retain and it's proven, that, you know, once a couple of weeks have gone by, maybe they remember 17% of it, and then another couple of weeks after that, you know, 2%. You know, and then people just kind of go back to their normal ways of working, because that delivery model training, isn't transformative. Training is not transformative. And you know, when people think of it that well, okay, well, what should we do? You know, I had another conversation at a networking event. So, people like to check the box. So, a company so well, we provided them leadership development training, so good on us, right? If it didn't create better leaders, then what did you really provide? You know, and people don't realize, you know, coaching, right, coaching is really the modality that causes transformation. Unfortunately, you know, people don't see coaching, you know, beyond, you know, executive coach, right, you know, you have an executive that's deemed to be not a great leader. So, you know, give him, you know, an executive coach, so that, you know, he can brush up on his leadership skills and, you know, maybe show up better, you know, with his or her direct reports. You know, that's what people think about coaching is this remedial thing, you know, and, you know, you take a step forward, and you say, oh, wait a minute. You know, it's particularly from a leadership development perspective. If you offer group coaching, right, group coaching to individual contributors before they had the privilege of leading others. That's something different, and virtually nobody's doing that today. Right? People don't realize that that's something that can be offered. That's something that should be offered. A lot of it's on the coaches themselves, they go right to the executive because they know, they go right to the business owner. When I get it from a coach, that's what I'm gonna work with, because that's what pays the bills. So, but you're coaching for like a transformation. You know, one of the things I've said for years is, you know, the leadership development I've seen, you know, that's given a brand scholars to sales professionals call that leadership development to turn a buck. They say, alright, well, we'll give our sales professionals leadership development training, and you know, they're going to start selling 25% more, and this is great for the bottom line and makes all the sense. But in any given company, most companies are, you know, they're not sales professionals. Yeah, how about leadership development, to change a culture to really go in there and change the culture much like, you know, I just said the other day, Major League Baseball, right, has this farm system, right? And, you know, they decided to build their farm system, you know, because they want to compete consistently at the high level, you know, in five to seven years. You know, what I think companies should be doing today in terms of leadership and culture, is build their farm system, who's their farm systems, individual contributors that are out of college, out of graduate school, that aren't leading people that leading one soul you know, yet. It's the people who put through group coaching program for leadership development, you know, in a year format, and see, like, wow, these people are going to now be operating in a different level. And oh, by the way, prepared to lead others, once they're given the privilege, say, you know, what, I think this person can handle a couple of direct reports. But you know, what, I think she can handle her own team, or this one, you know, yes, team tomorrow, department, right, and entire department in two years from now. So, these are the kinds of things that nobody is doing, right? You know, people are promoted for reasons other than their, we think they're going to be a great leader. I mean, to me, people don't even know where leadership is, right? Leadership is a battery of competencies, a battery of dozens of different competencies. But people confuse leadership for, you know, as being a subject matter expert, because you're the kind of you know, in the company, well, then we need to promote you, you know, you're the greatest marketer, well then we need to promote you, that is necessarily mean, you're going to be a great leader of other people. That confusion of leadership and excellence, is, you know, I think what's gotten us down a wrong path, you know, and from a corporate perspective, at the very least. Tim 27:30When you think about it that way, and touching on a few of the points that you've brought up. Leadership is a battery of competencies. Yes, nd many different people with many different styles, different personalities, different backgrounds are going to deliver and emulate and express those competencies in very, very different ways. The competency is the outcome, it's not the way we get there. It's the ability to do something, it's not that you have to paint by number to do it a certain way. You have to find your way to do that. And, well, I think it's, you know, you'd said earlier that you can have groups that come together, and they like their job. And often, I mean, I just finished two more rapid normings, though, over the last couple of weeks. And I teach this, this portion called, The Wheel, where we have to talk about the six things that we have to identify as part of the team that we have to be talking about with employees and whatnot, so that they feel stable, who we are, what do we do? What do we care about today? Who's doing what? How do we behave? And why are we the team that's going to do it? And that's drawn from the work of Pat Lencioni. The issue and what Pat didn't touch on, is that everybody needs to connect to those things individually. Who are we as a team? It's a mix of people and histories and all this, why does that matter to me, and it's gonna be very different than why it matters to you. What do we do? And what do we care about? Why do those two things matter to me? And that's going to be very different than it matters to somebody else? What's our code of behaviour on? What's the role division and how we're aligning the work? And why are leaders believe in us? And why are those things important to me? Why do they make me feel whole when I'm in the workplace, and then take the work as a leader and as a leader of people, we have to coach this and mentor people into it. Do I both know and foster in everybody on my team a connection with the work not just the task, not just the paycheck, but what we're doing. And it doesn't have to be a deep connection in the sense of, you know, I'm a sanitary professional that goes around and picks up garbage. We can laugh at something like that. But for people that do that, and they do it long term, they can connect to other things. I like being outside. I like the movement. I like big, heavy machinery. I like getting a glimpse into people's lives. I like to earn a paycheck. I like to do a job that disgusts everybody else. It could be different for everyone else. Jeff 29:54It doesn't make sense to you. And that's part of what Marcus says too, like it doesn't have to sense. Tim 29:58Yes. What's the connection?Jeff 29:59Absolute sense to the individual. You know, and I'm glad you mentioned Patrick Lencioni, too. And we've talked, you know, in this podcast, you know, I mentioned John Maxwell, we mentioned Patrick Lencioni mentioned Marcus Buckingham, you know, there's a theme here that I want the audience, you know, today's audience to listen to and say, understand that there's not this one thought leader that you just read the one author, right? There's so much truth in it, you start reading out and like I said, nerd out, on all of these authors, because there's going to be truths in there that you can apply directly to your career, right? And really, you don't just read it to get through it– Tim 30:38Read it for application. Where's the tool?  Jeff 30:43Right. Exactly. You read it for application. You know, how can I get better? Right? That's the screen. Like, how can I draw conclusions to that? And I think that's really where, you know, I want people to understand that how do you replace the void that comes from not binge-watching television shows, then from not, you know, watching cable news, social media. Yes, get a coach. But start your own self-development, start your own curriculum, you become an expert in leadership by reading a leadership book a month, and I encourage you many different authors. And just work with it. Like, you know, I could never give away my books, because I have all my notes in them, reminding me of a situation, Tim 31:25I was talking to somebody the other day about audible, and that I tend to buy the audible book and listen and buy the book. I buy both because I want the expedience of and the kind of listening experience of the audible book. But then I want to be able to go back, make notes, extract text, do all of those things with and have the tactile thing of having that reference material. I have an eclectic mix of books on my shelf. And I have a little spot that's for the ones that haven't earned their place yet. And every one of those books are books that I go back to again, and again and again because they are proper reference material. But an interesting thing I was going to bring up that, again, went back to what you were saying before, businesses often hire these trainers to come in. And that's really about adhering to a process and a certain, you know, paint-by-number approach, certain methodology. If a person is going to make use of that, and that can be good things coming into that too, or they're going to read things or whatever. As you said something earlier, something crystallized for me. As coaches, we're not there necessarily to help them learn to be leaders. In a way we're there to help them unlearn to be leaders. They've got to unlearn all of the useless stuff. And I like using the word fluency, get them fluent about themselves, how they want to be how they are today. So, that you can see the gaps that they have to go searching to fill. In a sense, they have to go, you know, if you're going to fill your toolbox, well know what tools you're short of, or know why you have each tool in the toolbox and make sure that it's you know, there's a place for everything and everything in its place. But that toolbox will be specific to you and your craft, and how you handle the tools, and how you approach the work. So, help them unlearn to be able to learn. Help them get fluent to be able to seek, you know, and that to me is is so critical when it comes to be the difference between you know, these program coaches who are largely trainers, they're going through a paint-by-number piece. I used to teach meeting skills and so I was very good at a very formalized agenda. And I ever used it, especially in my line of work, I now just have a list of outcomes, say, here's where we're going to get. And I've got a general approach in mind. But anticipate I will be calling an audible because I don't know what I'm dealing with until I'm in dealing with a group, until I'm in dealing with people, then I will start where they are, and I will craft for what they need. Not start with my agenda and my method, because otherwise, I'm not there for them. I'm there to deliver a commodity and that's not how I work. Jeff 34:09Yeah, no that's absolutely right. And I think, you know, it's understanding that difference between training and coaching. Like training as a delivery, coaching is a journey. As a coach, you want to be able to guide people through that journey. And it's a very, very different thing. And again, you know, what's great, what can be great about training, or we can be great about going to a conference is if it starts that journey, if it's a catalyst, right? It's just saying, hey, you know what, you know, I am going to commit to your meeting X amount of books on leadership, you know, this year, or I'm going to commit to going through a coaching program, you know, to find out like, how I can lead better, you know, because it's not only is it individualistic, it's also you know, based on the company itself, like you know, what's going to work you know, in, you know, your role today, you know, may not work, those leadership skills may not work in the same company in a different role. Right? So, that's why it's always this kind of journey to say, alright, you know, what got me here isn't necessarily what's going to get me there. And is that thing, that's what I tell people, you know, that the concept of building your leadership skills to the fidelity that you built, you know, whatever subject you went to school for, right? You know, you could be, you know, the best accountant in America, right? or Canada. Right? But, you know, what have you done to build your leadership skills to be at that level, that same level, right, you know, people think I need to get continuing education, so I can keep my project management certification, and they're, like, not even paying attention to it, you know, they're sitting there for, you know, the three days and they got, they got it. This is not that this is like really getting serious about it. And it's serious about the craft of leadership, but not taking yourself too seriously. Tim 35:57Well, the craft of self-development. Jeff 36:00You're right, it's not an I'm better than you scenario. Not in any way. It is, I've decided that I want to be a better teammate, or I want to be a better leader, you know, I want to be just grow to be, you know, a better version of myself. I mean, I know that that's, you know, can be sort of like that trait overused term. But the fact is, I mean, how many people are actually actively trying that and again, I had an event here in New Jersey, a couple of months ago, and I talked to it and one of the slides I threw up was a stock ticker, right? Your leadership development journey is going to look like a stock price, the up-downs, and hopefully, it's trending upward. But like, it's not about perfection, either. Like, you know, people think about, like, if I'm going to be a leader, like, you know, I have to be perfect, it's not about perfect, it's about trying to get better. And that's where people, that's where coaching gets into you, we never possibly ever get that from a leadership development training. And for those people in leadership positions now, that thought, like, oh they were doing right, you know, by providing this training, and then they're frustrated, because, you know, you spent all that money and it didn't work. Think about getting coaching for your team, getting that done, because that's really very, very important. Tim 37:17To wrap up here, the distinct differences, when you're realizing that coaching is the modality, not necessarily trained. Training is information-based. It's content, not context, coaching puts it in the context of the individual, and you're from New Jersey, but I often think of Beantown when I think about, I know, it's not super close, but anyway, it's closer than I am. Jeff 37:41Close enough. Same general type of person in North East. Tim 37:43But there's that scene in, in Goodwill Hunting, when he said, you know, you're gonna be sitting back, and you're gonna be looking at all your student loans, and you're gonna have a $400,000 education or something, and you're gonna realize that you could have learned all this with a buck 75 and late charges from the library. And, you know, information is not the problem here. And I've actually run into groups that come to me and say, Hey, we want to want you to put together a Leadership University for us. And I'm like, go on LinkedIn. Like you don't need me to generate content, the content is out there. What you need is you need people to learn how to steer their lives, to be able to source the right content, apply it well, and do it all so that both they win and their family wins and their career benefits and that they're in balance. And that we're not out of whack here, anybody can pick up a new idea and try to apply it as a bright, shiny thing, and sometimes destroy themselves doing it. Right? So– Jeff 38:50Absolutely, you know, and that's the thing too, like, people don't want to go to school anymore. Like they went to school already. And you know, something, you know, whether you finish in high school, college, graduate school or beyond, right? And then in corporations were given them more school, that's what training is, this is school again. You know, again, not only does it not work, people really don't want that. But like when you get them a coach, right? And again, you got to do your due diligence on coaches, right? If you're a business owner, or an executive thinking about getting a coach for your team, you know, and that coach has never had a coach before runaway because that tells you that they don't believe, you know, in the process of coaching, because if they did, you know, and they're asking you to spend money, because if they did, you know, they would have had coaches themselves. I know you have had several coaches, I have had coaches and continually like, you know, working with two guys right now, you know, and again, it's again to continue to improve like the, you know, the person that's got coached by me and 2023, you know, is a different coaching experience for those that are working with me right now in 2024. You know, and will be in 2025. The point is continually getting better at the craft of coaching, right, you know, so people need to understand that as well. I don't know in terms of that, again, that training piece, if people remember nothing else, and again, to all the folks that are listening to provide training, God bless you, the training does not work. I've been on the training end, both end up training, delivering training and receiving training, it just doesn't work. And coaching does– Tim 40:23Just, you know, ask anybody who spent money on a training scenario to go out and anonymously poll their group. And you'll find that some people, man, it was great, it's the best thing they've ever went through. And often the leader will have gone through the training, and think that this is just the bee's knees. Well, the reason was, the leader was ready for that piece of information at that time, and it was very useful for them. But that doesn't guarantee that 90% of anybody else in that call is ready or can use that information. The information doesn't steer it, you've got to start where people are. And as you say, it's the journey, and the ability to go through that journey.  Jeff 40:58And too, the content is there like and that's one thing we talked about, I just want to kind of give the opinions here the content, there's been content, oh, just since 1990, right? Like how much leadership development content is there. But yet the workplace still sucks. People will hear Simon Sinek, “Leaders Eat Last,” and say this is the greatest thing in the world, and not behave in any way of how he's describing but they listened to his Tim 41:22Got the certification, check. Jeff 41:25Right, they showed it to their team and say now that they quote him at a town hall. Tim 41:29Bought everybody a copy. Jeff 41:30That in reality, they're not acting like him. So, again, the content is always there, you can go out there and learn yourself, you know, you get an education yourself that self-learning, whether it is you know, the TED Talk videos on YouTube, go on YouTube, search, leadership development, get the books, but again, the only way that it's really going to kind of move the needle for you and your team is through coaching. Tim 41:53Yeah, if you've hold the row for that particular seed to take plant. Take route, here we go. So, we're going to wrap up, I want to thank you very much for opening up to us. I love where we're headed. I think we're gonna have to book another one because I think we've got lots more to talk about, I think we could dive deep on some of these issues. For sure. We've got a couple of traditions here, as we close up and people who have heard these before, the first thing I want you to tackle. So, we have a question from Rita, who joined us last episode. And this is gonna get bombed at you. But don't worry, you're gonna have a chance to bomb a question at the next person. Rita asks, what is the advice you would give your newly minted self if you were just entering the workforce? And you wish you had had that advice when you started? Jeff 42:43Absolutely, you know, I think about this a lot. And from my perspective, it is really get around the right people. Now, explain what we explained at the beginning of the podcast is getting around people of who've achieved where you want to go. And if you're starting to hear people in your workplace that are negative, you know, just politely kind of distance yourself from them, you're not better than them, you just don't need to hear negative things. That's exactly what I would tell my younger self is that, again, leadership development is not about being better than your coworker. It's not about being better than your neighbour, it's about being the best version of yourself and adding value to other people. So, that's exactly what I would say, just get around the right people, get away from negative people Tim 43:27Choose that focus. Jeff 43:29Put yourself on that focus.  Tim 43:33Yeah, right. Love it. If you were to have a wish, for anybody who is listening that they're going to take away from this podcast, what would you wish for people be? Jeff 43:44Honestly, I wish people, you know, to disengage from all the negativity that is out there in social media in 24/7 news, it is not serving you guys in any way, shape, or form. Those things are there to honestly make money for the advertisers that advertise on there. So, you know, if you can just remove yourself, you know, live like it's 1980. Right, you know, and again, not hiding your head in the sand. I'm not suggesting that, but you just don't need to take in this kind of content. And it will it will change your world. No question about it. Tim 44:17Without going down this path. But we can talk about it a little later. We just had an announcement here in Alberta that the public school system now is going to ban social media apps and personal devices during the school day. Jeff 44:29That's awesome. There's a couple of governors here that are doing the same and we're going to try to see what we can do in New Jersey for that because it's– Tim 44:36We've got the data now yeah, we know what's we'd like to think of ourselves as adults but we are learning beings and we are just as prone to that. Okay. If I was to ask you a question you want answered from the next leadership, visionary, what would it be?  Jeff 44:56Sure, absolutely. So, I would say, you know, what, do you want to be known for as your leadership legacy? Tim 45:03I love that question. I think I would actually add on to that and say, what do you want to be known to as your leadership legacy? And how can we help other people find out what they want to be known in their leadership? You know, how can we actually create that for others? But I am very curious to ask that question. In both phases. If you don't mind, I'm going to tack that one on because like, it's a great one.  Jeff 45:24No, attack that on, absolutely. Tim 45:27Jeff, it's been a real pleasure to have you on the show today. And I hope you had a lot of fun.  Jeff 45:33Tim, it's been great. And I can't wait to come back because I feel it percolating, like another 30-40 minutes of, you know, a completely different interview. And I'm looking forward to when we can do that. Tim 45:44Oh, no. 100%. Well, let's look more for Jeff in the feed. And to all of you out there listening. Thank you very much for taking the time to invest in yourself. And Jeff, we'll see you again real soon. Jeff 45:53All right. Take care, Tim. Tim 45:53Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too, by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________LentLet my prayer be set forth in your sight as incense, the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.Psalm 141:2 ConfessionOfficiant: Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God.People: Almighty and most merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from your ways like lost sheep. We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts. We have offended against your holy laws.We have left undone those things which we ought to have done, and we have done those things which we ought not to have done; and apart from your grace, there is no health in us. O Lord, have mercy upon us. Spare all those who confess their faults. Restore all those who are penitent, according to your promises declared to all people in Christ Jesus our Lord. And grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake, that we may now live a godly, righteous, and sober life, to the glory of your holy Name. Amen.Officiant: Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us all our sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen us in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep us in eternal life. Amen. The Lord's PrayerOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen. Invitatory & PsalmsOfficiant: O God, make speed to save us. People: O Lord, make haste to help us. Officiant & People: Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. O Gracious Light Phos hilaronO gracious Light, pure brightness of the everliving Father in heaven, O Jesus Christ, holy and blessed!Now as we come to the setting of the sun, and our eyes behold the vesper light, we sing your praises, O God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.You are worthy at all times to be praised by happy voices, O Son of God, O Giver of life,and to be glorified through all the worlds. Psalm 119GimelRetribue servo tuo17Deal bountifully with your servant, *that I may live and keep your word.18Open my eyes, that I may see *the wonders of your law.19I am a stranger here on earth; *do not hide your commandments from me.20My soul is consumed at all times *with longing for your judgments.21You have rebuked the insolent; *cursed are they who stray from your commandments!22Turn from me shame and rebuke, *for I have kept your decrees.23Even though rulers sit and plot against me, *I will meditate on your statutes.24For your decrees are my delight, *and they are my counselors.DalethAdhæsit pavimento25My soul cleaves to the dust; *give me life according to your word.26I have confessed my ways, and you answered me; *instruct me in your statutes.27Make me understand the way of your commandments, *that I may meditate on your marvelous works.28My soul melts away for sorrow; *strengthen me according to your word.29Take from me the way of lying; *let me find grace through your law.30I have chosen the way of faithfulness; *I have set your judgments before me.31I hold fast to your decrees; *O Lord, let me not be put to shame.32I will run the way of your commandments, *for you have set my heart at liberty. Psalm 117Laudate Dominum1Praise the Lord, all you nations; *laud him, all you peoples.2For his loving-kindness toward us is great, *and the faithfulness of the Lord endures for ever.Hallelujah! Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The LessonsJeremiah 20:7-13English Standard Version7 O Lord, you have deceived me,    and I was deceived;you are stronger than I,    and you have prevailed.I have become a laughingstock all the day;    everyone mocks me.8 For whenever I speak, I cry out,    I shout, “Violence and destruction!”For the word of the Lord has become for me    a reproach and derision all day long.9 If I say, “I will not mention him,    or speak any more in his name,”there is in my heart as it were a burning fire    shut up in my bones,and I am weary with holding it in,    and I cannot.10 For I hear many whispering.    Terror is on every side!“Denounce him! Let us denounce him!”    say all my close friends,    watching for my fall.“Perhaps he will be deceived;    then we can overcome him    and take our revenge on him.”11 But the Lord is with me as a dread warrior;    therefore my persecutors will stumble;    they will not overcome me.They will be greatly shamed,    for they will not succeed.Their eternal dishonor    will never be forgotten.12 O Lord of hosts, who tests the righteous,    who sees the heart and the mind,let me see your vengeance upon them,    for to you have I committed my cause.13 Sing to the Lord;    praise the Lord!For he has delivered the life of the needy    from the hand of evildoers. Officiant: The Word of the LordPeople: Thanks be to God. The Song of Mary - MagnificatMy soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit rejoices in God my Savior; * for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant From this day all generations will call me blessed: * the Almighty has done great things for me, and holy is his Name. He has mercy on those who fear him * in every generation.He has shown the strength of his arm, * he has scattered the proud in their conceit.He has cast down the mighty from their thrones, * and has lifted up the lowly. He has filled the hungry with good things, * and the rich he has sent away empty. He has come to the help of his servant Israel, * for he has remembered his promise of mercy, The promise he made to our fathers, * to Abraham and his children for ever.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as It was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. John 12:1-11English Standard Version12 Six days before the Passover, Jesus therefore came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. 2 So they gave a dinner for him there. Martha served, and Lazarus was one of those reclining with him at table. 3 Mary therefore took a pound of expensive ointment made from pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. 4 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was about to betray him), said, 5 “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” 6 He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it. 7 Jesus said, “Leave her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of my burial. 8 For the poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.”9 When the large crowd of the Jews learned that Jesus was there, they came, not only on account of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 So the chief priests made plans to put Lazarus to death as well, 11 because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and believing in Jesus. Officiant: The Word of the LordPeople: Thanks be to God. The Song of Simeon - Nunc dimittisLord, you now have set your servant free * to go in peace as you have promised; For these eyes of mine have seen the Savior, * whom you have prepared for all the world to see: A Light to enlighten the nations, * and the glory of your people Israel.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: * as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersOfficiant: The Lord be with you.People: And also with you.Officiant: Let us pray The SuffragesThat this evening may be holy, good, and peaceful, We entreat you, O Lord.That your holy angels may lead us in paths of peace and goodwill, We entreat you, O Lord.That we may be pardoned and forgiven for our sins and offenses, We entreat you, O Lord.That there may be peace to your Church and to the whole world, We entreat you, O Lord.That we may depart this life in your faith and fear, and not be condemned before the great judgment seat of Christ, We entreat you, O Lord.That we may be bound together by your Holy Spirit in the communion of all your saints, entrusting one another and all our life to Christ, We entreat you, O Lord.Take a moment at this time to reflect and pray for the needs of others. Fifth Sunday in LentAlmighty God, you alone can bring into order the unruly wills and affections of sinners: Grant your people grace to love what you command and desire what you promise; that, among the swift and varied changes of the world, our hearts may surely there be fixed where true joys are to be found; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.A Collect for PeaceMost holy God, the source of all good desires, all right judgments, and all just works: Give to us, your servants, that peace which the world cannot give, so that our minds may be fixed on the doing of your will, and that we, being delivered from the fear of all enemies, may live in peace and quietness; through the mercies of Christ Jesus our Savior. Amen.A Collect for Aid against PerilsBe our light in the darkness, O Lord, and in your great mercy defend us from all perils and dangers of this night; for the love of your only Son, our Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.For MissionKeep watch, dear Lord, with those who work, or watch, or weep this night, and give your angels charge over those who sleep. Tend the sick, Lord Christ; give rest to the weary, bless the dying, soothe the suffering, pity the afflicted, shield the joyous; and all for your love's sake. Amen. ThanksgivingsThe General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen.A Prayer of St. ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time with one accord to make our common supplication to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will be in the midst of them: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. ConclusionMay the God of hope fill us with all joy and peace in believing through the power of the Holy Spirit. Amen. - Romans 15:13

In this compelling episode of the Sweet on Leadership Podcast, industry leader Teresa Waddington joins host Tim Sweet on a mission to revolutionize the energy landscape. Teresa's diverse background, spanning from engineering to corporate relations, reflects her passionate commitment to converting her father's oil patch into a sustainable energy garden for future generations. The conversation explores multifaceted leadership, emphasizing the significance of authenticity and vulnerability in fostering cohesive teams. Teresa shares profound insights into the intricacies of the energy industry, addressing the delicate balance between profitability and sustainability. The episode underscores the transformative potential of leadership grounded in connection, creativity, and a shared vision for the future of energy. Teresa's advocacy for bold thinking and collaboration resonates, offering listeners valuable perspectives on navigating the complexities of the global energy crisis and the importance of continuous self-improvement in leadership. The episode underscores the power of diverse perspectives in driving transformative change within the energy sector.About Teresa WaddingtonTeresa is on a mission to turn her dad's oil patch into her daughter's energy garden. This has driven her contribution to shaping the global energy garden, helping to plant and nurture the molecules, electrons, technologies, policies, and workforce that will drive our energy transition. Teresa believes in thinking big, having fun, and that the intersection of creativity and technology will be the ultimate transformational force in our society. This mission – informed by her engineering education and diverse work experiences (from corporate relations to running a gas plant to leading a maintenance crew), along with a cheeky nature and a love of drawing - has driven her to create a YouTube channel where she animates a variety of industry-relevant topics. She's been published numerous times in the Globe and Mail, typically from work inspired by her three kids and husband. She is always seeking to connect and communicate around energy.Resources discussed in this episode:LNG Canada: lngcanada.caSAGA Wisdom: sagawisdom.com--Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence:WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Teresa Waddington:Website: Teresa WaddingtonYouTube: @teresawaddingtonLinkedin: Teresa Waddington--TranscriptTeresa 00:01Be yourself. And I mean that in the way of, do the hard work to know who you are. Take the time to constantly strip away all the outside influences and muddy up who we think we should be, what we think success looks like, and who we're performing for our parents or our children, or somebody else. Take the time to constantly strip that away into reground. So, that you can truly be yourself in every aspect of your life.Tim 00:32I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. Welcome to the Sweet on Leadership Podcast, episode 28. Tim 01:05I am really happy that I've got Teresa Waddington joining me. So, hello, Teresa.Teresa 01:11Hello, I'm excited to be here.Tim 01:14We're just saying off-camera, this feels like we've known each other for a couple of years, but it feels like a lot longer. And every once in a while, you meet people that I don't know, maybe we remind each other of other people in our life or just feels like we're we're in sync. So, I'm really excited for today. And let's see if that translates into a podcast. I think it will, as I mentioned that you and I've been connected for a couple of years now. And I remember the first time that we met was because I had run across one of your articles in my feed. And I remember looking at your profile bio, which you still have, which I would really encourage everybody to go look at. And the line that stuck out in my mind, as both of us were involved in the energy industry was turning my dad's oil patch into my daughter's energy garden, which just hit me like a ton of bricks. And that was something that always stuck with me. And then I think I reached out and we had a few conversations and it was good. But I really appreciate and cherish the opportunity, I have to talk to you and every time that you make time for me. So, thank you so much for that. And I can't wait to introduce others to you. So, with that in mind, why don't you tell everybody who's listening a little bit about yourself?Teresa 02:23You nailed it. My Profile bio, which I've spent a lot of time thinking about over years and years and years, is that I'm on a mission to turn my dad's oil patch into my daughter's energy garden. And when I think about who I am, and how I've come to my journey, it does feature a lot about my family and my family that I came from and my family that I've created with my husband, in terms of my parents and my kids. So, I come from a family of five engineers, it was a genetic requirement. My parents and my siblings are all engineers, there was a genetic requirement that I would graduate with an engineering degree. And after I did that, I joined Shell where I've held jobs in all kinds of different functions from Project Engineering to Commercial to Operations and Maintenance, to HSSE, and now I'm in Corporate Relations. So, a big kind of span across the energy industry. And really, throughout all of it, I've had a huge amount of mentorship and support from my dad, and my mom. My mom was also an engineer in the early days of the Calgary oil patch, although I wouldn't say it was her her oil patch, it was definitely something that she struggled with as she kind of came through her career. And now I'm building on kind of the legacy, they've left me to try and create transformation and change, not just in the molecules, electrons, policies, but also in the people that are going to build that future for our children. And when I think about that future energy garden, I really do think it is a whole host of things. It's a whole host of technologies, and couplings of those technologies between kind of old and new, that will really drive us forward. And we're going to talk about leadership today. A huge piece of what I believe my role in many of our roles is now is really, how do we lead and create a fertile ground for that transition, to enable other people to contribute in their kind of super specialized creative ways to lead and to create and to build that energy garden of the future.Tim 04:18I think it's really interesting. I mean, myself, I'm involved in oil and gas and a bunch of other industries as well. But having been brought up in Calgary, it's been such a part of our identity to be the oil patch or the energy center of Canada, and in many ways of the Western world. And there's no end right now to the controversy that we find ourselves in because of the world's relation with hydrocarbons. And it's really interesting to me, that from the outside, there's a general assumption that the bulk of people that work in energy are very focused on profit and simply, you know, producing this fuel or whatnot, and they don't really give a mind to, you know what else is going on. And I find that that's just not true. The you know, the people that are here are in service of society by and large, they know that at the state that the world is in this is required. I mean, we require hydrocarbons for fuels and advanced fuels, we require it for plastics, we require it for clothing, we require it for all sorts of petroleum-derived chemicals and whatnot. But nobody is feeling like it needs to stay the way it is. I think there's a wide recognition that if we're going to be part of the future, it has to move. And so Canada has always been at the forefront of ethical production, it's always been at the forefront of thinking about how do we transition this into something that is sustainable. Because even if we get away from combustibles when it comes to fuel, we still require petrochemicals to engage in environmental technologies. And so it's such a huge issue. And when we think about changing, as you say, when you think about changing the people along with that, I think that there's such a visionary component. And today, when we're going to talk about this, it's not just changing that garden from within, I see it is changing how people appreciate the role that this industry plays in modern life, and sustainable life and health care and everything else, all the things that work right now, not to dismiss the things that need to change. But you know. Teresa 06:38It's interesting because my dad's oil patch was in a bad place, in a lot of ways. There's a lot of values and ways of doing things that I think absolutely are going to be required as we move into that next iteration. But he said something early on that I think was super interesting that the concept of profitability being a bad thing, that we should be doing things out of altruism, and charity. And every dollar we spend is a vote for something. It's something we believe in or something that we value or something that we need. And so the fact that, you know, petrochemicals and fossil fuels still attract such a high rate of return, and they still get so much investment, just points to the fact that people are continuing to vote for them. And so we need to lead change, we need to make that difference, and I completely agree with it's kind of both, but to cast profitability as a negative thing, I think really undermines our ability to understand how we contribute to the world in an incredibly tangible way. ESG investing is a great example, where it's really uncommon, that higher ESG metrics are ranking truly translates into better profitability. So, why is that? Like? What needs to change? When is that going to change? Who's going to change it? Yeah, absolutely. It all comes back to people at the end of the day,Tim 07:55It's not simply a mindless pursuit of profits, it is voting with those dollars, making sure that they are of use to many people. And I mean, the reason why it is so strong is because people vote in ways that they don't even realize. I mean, when they buy a certain good and that good is reliant on transport arts relying on manufacturing, or it's reliant on chemical inclusion, or whatever it is, they are part of the supply chain, they're part of the decision to continue to extract resources and the need to extract resource in the enjoyment of everything that comes as positive as oppose. And as you say, ESG, environmental social governance, the fact that that isn't a high rate of return area, I guess, would be a fair way of saying it. It's not returning on value. Teresa 08:47Having high ESG rankings doesn't necessarily mean people will pay more, or wherever it doesn't translate to direct value for consumers.Tim 08:57That's right. It's not represented necessarily in the footprint of what people are paying for. So, yeah, I think all of that really needs to change, which then brings us around to what we're talking about today. And so there is a very heavy issue that has a lot of different opinions floating around, and a lot of learning to happen on all sides. And also, it's one of those issues that does not function well in a polarized society, because it really requires that we have that Rational Middle, that ability to have good dialogue, and to educate and hear from all parties. It doesn't deal well as a polarized issue, because then nobody's listening to each other. But this takes us full around to the fact that if you stay in your box, inside a company, and you're dealing with this and you're part of it, well okay, you're going to fulfill a function. But there's such a larger opportunity. And that's what we're really here to talk about today. And that is that idea of multifaceted leadership, you're not just leading operationally within your position, within some company. There are other opportunities to lead. So, when you and I started talking about this, I was really excited by what you were saying. So, can you take us a little bit down that path? When you think of a leader having multiple avenues of influence? Why is that important? And what does that mean?Teresa 10:23I'm going to start with a piece of advice that I think we've all been told at some point, and then come bring that back to leadership and multifaceted leadership, which is just be yourself. Which is unbelievably difficult to do, which is why it's so often repeated and is so critical in creating the change and the multifaceted leadership in terms of showing up consistently in all kinds of avenues and really helping drive belief in that you really do mean what you're saying in whatever area you end up standing in. So, I'll start with when I was a junior engineer, leadership looks like, you know, doing flare stack calculations and designs and adding an extra layer of insulation to help reduce CO2 or whatever it was, but it was really for me, it was about how do you make things that are both efficient and sound technically? And getting into my first few leadership roles I learned a lot about having technical know-how is great, it is a foundational element to be incredible in a lot of different areas, but being able to listen, and to really hear what people are saying, the technical elements are really important and being able to evaluate how to balance those, but also, what scares them, what inspires them? What are they really looking to do in their work? Are they looking to send their child to school to have a better ability to provide than they did? Are they really excited about creating change in the renewable space, whatever it is that's fundamentally driving people helps understand where they're coming from, and then also how you can connect into their energy to make even more happen. And then the final element is kind of within your peer group. And I found that as I've gotten further into my career and working with a big company, it's really how do I connect the dots between what other people want to do so that we can get an inspired group of people who support each other, who drive change, who truly create in every sense of the word in a business environment, and creativity is essential, I think, to everything we do. Because if you really want to lead, it means going into places where others haven't been or going there in a different way. And to do that, you need to imagine things that don't exist. And to do that with a collaborative group of people who are representing different points of view, different bits of expertise, different understandings of how the world works, and how to make it move. If you get a big group of people who really complement each other driving that change, you can build incredible things and bring incredible things to life. And so when I think of truly multifaceted leadership, it's being part of teams like that, with the urge to create, with the different skill sets that are required around it to do it, or they can go get those skill sets because they realize the gaps. Who really make things different in the world, who bring new things to life. And there's nothing better to me than being part of a team like that, that gets to drive something brand new into the world.Tim 13:28There is so much there to unpack, and I'm going to tell you what I heard. And we can see where it takes us. I thought it was really interesting when you talked about, you know, that drive to build belief in oneself. And I've been having some interesting thoughts about the word belief because the issue with the word belief is it requires untested faith. Like it requires things that, you know, we have to believe something on the surface. And I don't think we always use it that way. And when you were talking, I heard more about it's creating surety that we are who we say we are that we are thinking what we say we're thinking, and that is a huge component. In that, that's authenticity. That's I am what you see in front of you. And authenticity is one of those three key pillars of trust alongside logic and empathy. The other word there that's really important from leadership and team perspective, is that authenticity requires a certain measure of vulnerability to say, I'm going to be who I am, I'm going to tell you what I'm thinking, I'm going to tell you what my fears are. I'm going to tell you what my interests and inspirations are and I need you to deal with me on those levels. That doesn't mean they're not going to change, but you need to understand that this is who I am. And that I mean what I say when I say it, and I think that that's a huge part of this and it is a precursor to being able to go out and create with others. And what's really neat about teaching and making that the way in which energy professionals show up, is that then allows us to not only connect with people inside of organizations but to connect with people that are part of other interest groups, perhaps they're Aboriginal groups or perhaps our environmental groups. And rather than ostracizing and isolating ourselves from them, we can talk with them at that level. And we can understand them at that level, what are your fears? What are your inspirations? What are your interests, what's driving you? What is your child's garden look like? But we're such a creature of fear. And the phrase that has been bouncing around, in my mind. And I don't know if I heard it somewhere, if I'm coming up with myself is that human beings are such children of fear, and they're such children of risk. I heard a great thing said the other day, and I've been sharing it where when we were primeval, or when we were developing, we could make an alpha or beta error. If there was a tiger in the grass, and we failed to see it, it would eat us. And that was a beta error, we deserve to be taken out of the gene pool, in a sense. But if we ran away, even if there was no tiger in the grass, we were right, we might have been wrong, but we were alive. Running away was the way to get into the risk and run away. So, I mean, from simulations, simulating being the way our brains are designed to create and to imagine the future and do all these things. If we imagine risk, there was a big payoff from staying in the gene pool perspective of running away, of stopping the conversation, and bolting. And so we're up against that, where we have to sort of stay facing the tiger in the grass, even when it's scary, and talk about our risks and talk about things that make us vulnerable, even if they're inspirations. The last thing that you said in there that I thought was great, was that it becomes this kind of skill set to be able to say, look, are we able to create here? Or do we need to get more opinions? Do we need to get other people involved? And so really teaching that ability to get over ourselves and then go out and gather more opinions, even if they are contradictory, and bring them into the fold, so that we can create and get into this chaotic space of developing something new that we didn't expect? How am I doing? Teresa 17:25Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely right. And the whole diversity, you're kind of making me think of a conversation my sister and I had when we were mountain biking in Bread Creek a little while ago. Both her and I are female engineers, we have both been told by various people we've worked with at some point, oh, you're a diversity hire. And we were talking about in the teams that we've worked in, you know,Tim 17:45Can I say barf real quick?Teresa 17:46Trust me, don't worry, her and I covered that. We've covered that ground. But it was really interesting talking about what are the limits of diversity that you can handle in a team before everything busts apart? And so we weren't talking about gender diversity, per se, we're talking about like true thought diversity. And how do you ensure that your team of people who are about to go create something and she has a startup on the side, so we were talking about that, has enough value-based overlap, and yet difference of opinion that you will want to stay together? And it's a physics concept, right? It's how much kind of magnetic force do you have before you start to lose things off the edge? And the concept of having a limit to diversity feels like a really difficult thing to say, like, are you allowed to say that, is that trending into some politically, very unsavory territory? But I do think the concept that diversity brings value, but only if you have enough common ground to want to move together. Otherwise, you just lose.Tim 18:54I think it's a great point, when we think about how teams perform, they can perform instinctually, which is down on the task base, they can perform from a planning a project space when they're in that sort of tactical zone, they can get strategic, and they can be deciding where they want to go. So, you sort of have the strategic tactical, operational, but then up above that, you have this challenge zone, which is where the team may have to look periodically outside, be exposed to external forces. So, I think to be functional, you're right, you know, you have to have cohesion. And you have to have a team that faces very little resistance, the work should be hard, but working together shouldn't. And so the team has to be crafted in order to go and do things. And indeed, having constant authenticity and trust operating within that team is paramount. When we're facing these larger challenges, I would say, every once in a while, we open ourselves up to a different facet to a different form. And we go out we gather and maybe we have periodic exposure to really challenging thoughts that keep us on the knife edge, then we take that and we return and we say, okay, how do we turn that into something functional thinking in terms of those phases? So, not just that we have different phases to our leadership into our team. But there's a timing element. And there's a, there's a practicality element that we have to say, you know, you can't always be interfaced with somebody who's in an oppositional, right? But you can certainly go and listen, have a good conversation, take those back and work them and say, Okay, now what if we could? What if we could change it to be more aligned? What would it take and seek that sort of common ground, but it's, I love that. I love that notion that you're saying of having that molecular connection, that cohesion, that natural gravity towards each other, where it's like, this makes sense, why we're all together. It really involves being connected not just on a professional level, but also on a linguistic level, and on a cultural level, and on on a personal, you know, interest, like you and I. I mean, when we talked in the beginning about having a natural kind of clique? Well, at least I feel that way, I won't speak for you. But it's kind of the static between us that makes it easy, makes it easy to come in. And we don't come from the same backgrounds. And so I may be saying things that are a little on the outside, and you're saying things that are on the outside, and here we are. With that in mind, then let's talk about if we can do that, if we can find that rhythm and that magnetism inside and still remain open to what scared to what scares us, to what inspires us. And every once in a while, open the door to other thought, what's possible? What is possible if we're able to do that? How does that enrich, and fertilize your daughter's energy garden?Teresa 22:04I mean, that's a huge question. First off.Tim 22:08You're right. What do you see as possible, that is impossible today?Teresa 22:14So, I can't even envision the different ways that the world is going to merge the geopolitical crisis, the energy crisis, and the climate crisis. But I firmly believe that the whole people, planet, profit Triple Bottom Line concept exists, and that it is absolutely possible. But it will take huge leaps of faith, creativity, and a desire for people to come together without yet knowing that the outcome is possible to create a possible pathway. And like one super minor, and this is just because we're talking about the D&I thing afterwards made me think about it. I had a conversation with a guy who was very upset about the concept of D&I and hiring practices and kind of some of the equity stuff that was going on. And I said, Well, why? And he goes, Well, because we've got a perfect meritocracy now, why wouldn't we be keeping the meritocracy in place? And I was blown away. I'm like, you believe that we actually have a meritocracy in our workplaces? Because like, just putting it out there, buddy, I don't think it's perfect. I don't think it works, the way you think it works, and opening up that space to say, Why do you want to preserve this, for the people who are exceptional at preserving status quo? And by that, I mean, like, CEOs of certain companies, you know, the people who are saying, we're not going to change, I would love to say, where's that conversation to open up why? Why do you think this is perfect, and what is worth preserving? Because I also don't believe that we need to throw away everything. And I think sometimes that gets lost in some of the like, rhetoric and some of the more extremist views is–Tim 23:53–very dangerous. Teresa 23:54Everything is broken. Yeah, throw everything away and we're gonna have to go down this 100% renewables from day one standpoint as an example. And I think in order to get to the point where things have really changed, we do need to do a portion of that a portion of, you know, like, If Ford had built, you know, what the people wanted, he would have tried to make faster horses and he had to completely re-envision what does transport look like to get to a car? I think we're going to need a piece of that. We're gonna need that revolution, we're also going to need the evolution and we're going to need them to come together to really step change us into what is completely new. So, when I think about like, from a leadership perspective, it's being open to change. It's looking for the holes in your argument. And I'll give you an example of my own leadership journey. I've always tried to say what am I blind to? So what are people saying about me that I should know in order to decide if I'm going to change anything about what I do, how I show up, how I build my skill sets, how I build my allegiances because if I don't know, it might feel comfortable, it might feel like I'm not, you know, exposed to negative opinions of myself. But if I do know then I can make a choice and be comfortable enough to ask for the bad feedback, it requires a measure of worthiness or belief in your own worthiness. And when I think about the people that I mentor and support, the ones that I want to see continue to drive forward and change the world. It's reinforcing their own core worthiness, while at the same time gathering feedback. And last example, my kids all got their report cards last week, I think a lot of kids did in Calgary, and we sat through and we looked at their marks. And one of the things that I'm always really keen with my kids to understand is that their marks are not a measure of their worth. They are a moment in time and you know, in some of the marks that weren't great, I asked my kids, are you happy with this? Is this where you want to be? And do you feel in control, because the only thing I want, if you're gonna get like, the Alberta has this four-point system, if you get two's, which means barely pass or just passing, but it's something that you are not wanting to put more time and energy into and you feel like you do have control, you could get better marks if you wanted to get tutoring or put more time in, then my goal is that you feel that you have control, and can make a choice on what types of kind of threshold you're able to achieve. And to put reality on that too. My one son just doesn't like English. And it's never going to be his best subject. But he has to pass it in order to get into the high school that he wants and university, right? So, that's part of the conversation as well as how do you acknowledge who you are, and what you're exceptional at, and not letting your weaknesses draw you back? Tim 26:51Yeah, there's so much there again. I'll hit on a couple of them. The idea of meritocracy. Oh, my gosh. Look in pure meritocracy, sure people should–Teresa 27:02What even is it? How do you even measure–Tim 27:04Judge it on the merit of your work, sure. But as a roadblock we put up to change, it's so funny. And it reminds me of, I was working with a board of executives. And, you know, everybody was in large agreement that things needed to change. No one was terribly happy. But inevitably, when I'd gone in and interviewed all of those executives, and this happened several times. So, if you're one of my clients, yeah, I might be talking about you. But you're probably not the only one. There's an assumption that people see it your way, it's natural for us to assume that our view of the world is somehow the chief paradigm. And you know, I remember that we were going through this disclosure of everything that I had heard from people and what people wanted to see this team become. To their credit, they stopped the conversation and said, I don't get it. What's happening right now is really working for me. Why do we need to change anything?Teresa 28:06That really working for me, it's the perfect, perfect descriptor, sorry.Tim 28:11But that's 100%. I mean, it's myopic on, it's really working for me. But like any good scientific method, we need to, we need to change certain variables and test what the reaction is right? And so, you know, the reason why when it comes to diversity, and inclusion, D&I or EDI, if you talk about it that way, Equity, Diversity Inclusion, why we need to test these things is because we don't fully understand the degree to which the systems that we currently have, are resistant to change, are so ingrained, we don't even realize what we're looking at. It just looks like the woodwork. But when we look at the individual brains, it's like, look, this is really exclusionary. So, we put in, we get away from a meritocracy for a moment, and we look at be a quota systems or different ways to test it. These are just tests to see when we stress it, to look at what does it look like when we strive for 50% female inclusion on the board, or multiple orientations on the board, or racially diverse board, or all of the above as it should be representative of the society or whatever way you want to put it. And what starts to break, what starts to buck, what starts to fight us? Well, then we know we have structural conflict, and we can go after those structures. Because when we look at all of these things that we have in society today, you know, often we think, Okay, well the energy industry is broken, or the way we structure boards is broken, or the political system is broken. It's not broken. It's doing exactly what it's designed to do, which is sub-optimal, 100%. If we're not happy with it, but we have to realize that from a perspective, it's the outcome of the way it's designed. And if we want to change it, we got to change the design. But we got to get away from that. Yeah, might be working for me, but who isn't it working for? And the other thing you were saying about, I just had the same conversation with my son and my daughter. She just graduated high school, she's taking a gap year, she's thinking about what she wants to do. And she keeps saying, you know, I think I might go into biology or whatnot. And she loves biology, but she doesn't like the learning and the lab work and all these things. She loves it as a concept of curiosity. Meanwhile, she's this amazing artist, she's started her own jewelry launch, and she's been running it for four years. And you should, I can't believe how good she's doing over in this space. Sea and Stone Jewelry on Instagram, by the way, plug, but, you know, play to your strengths, because she just has such natural creativity in this space. I don't want to hold her back from anything she wants to do, as long as she is, she feels fulfilled, as long as she's bringing everything she's capable of. And maybe this is me, being that type of, I don't know, performance-minded person. But whatever you do, whatever path you pick in life, you know, does it feel like we're really putting your best stuff into the world? And so I think it's, yeah, anyway, I agree. Grades are not the measure of the worth. It's what are you gonna do with it? I talked to a former dean of my university last week. And I mentioned to her how in my last semester of business school, I went to the dean of the business and said, I didn't want to take any of these courses. They're just useless to me. Can I write a thesis instead? And she said, Sure, but that's a little bit of a heavy lift. And I said I'll take it because it was an expression of what I wanted to do and who I was. Anyway, am I on your wavelength? Teresa 31:58Yeah, no, when I went to university, I took engineering because it was the easiest path to a degree for me, that's what I'm good at. And so to have done, oh, God, anything in social studies would have just absolutely murdered me. So, it's interesting how it depends on what you're good at. And for the longest time, I valued things that I wasn't good at, in a disproportionate way because they were hard for me. So, my husband's a naturally gifted athlete, I'm like, Okay, I'm always going to be involved in some kind of athletics because that's important to me. And I placed the middle of the pack on mountain bike racing, which I did at the university, and stuff like that. It was important to me that I did it, but I could not win. And I inordinately valued the win on a mountain bike race, versus getting, you know, the gold medal for my year in university, which to a lot of outsiders is like you're an idiot. You're doing academically, incredibly well, why isn't that as important to you? And it's like, well, because it comes easily. And so one thing that I've really taken for my kids is, don't undervalue what you're fundamentally gifted at, but continue to hone it. Like perform at the highest level possible, within the things that you love and are good at. And don't ever think that it makes it less important, because you're good at them.Tim 33:13Oh, man, and I think you're rounding us around to sort of a natural conclusion of where I think we saw this going. And that is, when you're in that exploratory phase when you're honing all those thoughts, when you're really sharpening all of your areas of impact, whether or not they're the ones that you're naturally gifted at, you don't rest on your laurels, you know, you still are active and inspired and going out and trying to influence things. You know, those are those opportunities to go out and lead either directly, or to create, what a friend of mine actually years ago from Shell, he brought up the term. How did he put it again? The forums for collision, right? That you're opening up these areas where people can come in, and they can bring all their best stuff together and all their passions together and see what truth emerges.Teresa 34:18Just to build on the collision thing, and we kind of touched about, I think in a previous conversation about what are the things you do? So, I'm really active in a whole variety of places. I'm on a committee for the UFC board. I do, you know, I have a YouTube channel where I animate little videos, I put stuff out into the Globe and Mail and other forms. I'm really active in a lot of places. And I really believe that if I get too strategic on what is really important, where are the places that really need to show up? I cut out this whole area of what do I want to do? What's interesting, yeah, play and it creates intersections of people you would never otherwise meet. When I go to work events, and those who meet me at these work events can attest, it's kind of like this group of us that go around to all these different things, we see each other every time. It's not a lot of net new. And so going out and being a volunteer with Scouts Canada, joining UFC committee, like all of these things have broad net new relationships and viewpoints and super interesting tangents that I don't know where they're gonna go. And maybe it's not important that every single thing is done with perfectly forward-dimensional movement, it really matters that you create this raft and this kind of 3d shape around everything that's important to you and what you're trying to do in the world. Tim 35:43And that 3d shape allows other people to get a foothold, and realize when they can reach out and connect with you. It is that 3d shape is the shape of your molecule that can then attract others that can then you know, thinking of like form chemical bonds, right? With others. Man, I love this. Sorry, we're playing right now. Right? Teresa 36:05Yeah, absolutely. Tim 36:07Okay, well, so much here, the big message here that we're trying to convey, I believe, is you embrace that play, you embrace that vulnerability, you lean into all those things, and even, maybe define or at least open yourself up. And man, you can lead or you can contribute in so many different areas. And it really enriches our time on this planet.Teresa 36:39And maybe just building on that Tim, don't treat networking as a get-rich-quick, like there is no one relationship that's going to pull you up through to where you want to be or to get you access to what you need to build what you want to build. It's like brushing your teeth, you do it every day. And in the end, you have great teeth. And if you just treat relationships with the same kind of diligence and care and constant routine around it, I believe that it creates the molecules that then really do make a change in the world. Tim 37:10Yeah, wow, you really are talking about farming different gardens. And those relationships are part of that, you know, nurturing them and watering them, and tending them. Man, okay. I think we're gonna have to have another conversation. I always say this with people. But I'm like, there's going to come a point where we're going to have to solidify on something else here. And it's, as I go through these podcasts, I don't only keep all the guests in mind, but it has these different as I've learned through these different conversations, it opens up new areas of intrigue, and then I know there's going to be a chance for us to bring this back together. And I'm already getting some little sparks. But let's leave that for the next time and for a side conversation, thinking of the future ahead. What has really, really excited in the world, what do you want people to know you're doing? What you're up to?Teresa 37:58I mean, for me, personally, the work I'm doing with LNG Canada right now, bringing Canada's first LNG export facility to life is super exciting. So, my day job is absolutely keeping me busy and driven, and motivated. And I'm working with an incredible team. And I really do believe that opening that up is part of the energy garden, it's part of reducing global climate impacts, while at the same time enabling power to developing nations. And that kind of brain trust that's coming out of developing nations as they get increasing access to the types of things that have enabled the developed world's populations to contribute in the ways that we have, it's going to be transformational for our world in a positive way, I really do believe that. So, that's a big piece of what I'm working on, trying to get in a few more days on what's been a bit of a skinny ski season. It's another side project–Tim 38:47A lot of rocks.Teresa 38:49A lot of rocks out there. And then I'm also, as you probably know, I'm quite active on LinkedIn, and I have a YouTube channel that I make little videos on. And I've also done a few courses for a company called SAGA Wisdom. One is an LNG Fundamental, which is going to be coming out shortly. And another one is called Oil Patch to Energy Garden, Energy and Transition, which is a much longer course about all kinds of things including molecules, electrons, people, policies, geopolitics, all kinds of aspects of what does that transformation look like? And in a lot of those kinds of side work projects that I've been doing, it's really about how do I channel my energy into helping drive groups of people to join our cause, to help move forward, to help create that energy garden.Tim 39:38Yeah and for those on the outside, I just want to I want to put in a plug for for LNG for those of you listening that don't understand the difference between liquid and gas, petrochemicals. It has the potential to be transitional from a technology perspective, because if you're just thinking about combustion, what is it? It's one-quarter, as pollutive as the–Teresa 39:54Half. Half is coal. Tim 39:56Half as cool. And so I mean, while we're figuring things out, not to mention, I mean, LNG is so critical when it comes to developing fertilizers and everything a bunch of other things. Look at what that would mean for the planet. And for anybody that hasn't that has not looked into that, understand the difference, understand the difference of why that there is a transition within the energy sphere, around what chemicals become dominant, what forms become dominant. I just want to put that plug in.Teresa 40:29Absolutely. And just I sometimes get well, you know, you work for an LNG company, obviously, that that's what you think it's actually the other way around. I work for an LNG company because that's what I think.Tim 40:41Yeah, yeah. Also, we'll put links to all of that in the show notes. If people want to reach out to you directly, what's the best way for them to find you?Teresa 40:48Join me on LinkedIn, I'm pretty good about responding to messages there. But feel free to connect or follow. I am a little bit prolific on what I put out there. All again, in service of this concept of oil patch to energy garden, and how do we, how do we collectively make that happen?Tim 41:04And as I ask my guests, if you had one wish for the people listening today, coming from all different walks of life, coming from all different industries and whatnot, what would your wish for them be?Teresa 41:16I'm gonna go back to that first piece of advice. It's be yourself and I mean that in the way of, do the hard work to know who you are, take the time to constantly strip away all the outside influences that muddy up who we think we should be, what we think success looks like, who we're performing for our parents or our children or somebody else, take the time to constantly strip that away into reground. So, that you can truly be yourself in every aspect of your life.Tim 41:45I think that is timeless wisdom. And I think that it's something that if people can get into that, you know, my relationship with wanting to inspire fluency of self. If you can define that for yourself, and realize why you're worthy, realize why you're worth, you know, putting love into and getting yourself out there, man, it opens doors. So, thank you so much for this, Teresa. I really appreciate it.Teresa 42:08Thank you, Tim.Tim 42:10All right, we're gonna do it again.Teresa 42:11I can't wait. Tim 42:14Talk to you later.Tim 42:20Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams, and colleagues. Thanks again for listening and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet On Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

March 4, 2024 Today's Reading: Exodus 20:1-17Daily Lectionary: Genesis 29:1-30, 31-34, Mark 9:14-32I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery (Exodus 20:2)In the Name + of Jesus. Amen. Today's reading is the Ten Commandments. Honestly, this section of Scripture can be a bit of a hard slog, where God is viewed as the great cosmic killjoy, setting out the rules we are to follow to keep Him happy. And as we try to follow these rules sometimes it can seem deeply unfair, as the harder we try the worse it can get, as we try to white-knuckle our way to holiness. And when we inevitably fail and mess up, we seemingly receive little consolation in God's declaration that He's a jealous God who will punish the children for the iniquity of their parents (Exodus 20:5). None of this seems fair at all. Then the temptation can be to maybe ignore some of the rules, perhaps God didn't really mean what he said? Or maybe major in the rules you know you can keep, downplaying the ones you can't, and hoping no one will notice, least of all God. In all this wrestling with the Ten Commandments and our sinful nature though it's easy to forget where God starts when He begins to speak. He does not say you are all a mess, and here's a plan to clean up your life. Nor does He say you are all having too much fun and I'm jealous so I'm going to ruin it for you. He does the opposite, He tells us about His character and His love for His people. He is a God who rescues from bondage, from certain death, He is a God interested in the delivery of His people. Here, He reminds His people, very freshly delivered out of slavery in Egypt by God through the hands of Moses, that He is their rescuer, their protector, their guardian, who wants to keep them safe and free. It can be easy to look at the Law as a new form of bondage, and it certainly does serve to keep our sinful natures corralled, but we are not free when our sinful natures are liberated, we are free in our new life in Christ. In our Baptism we are rescued from the bondage of sin, as our old selves are drowned, and raised to live in new life. That new life sees the danger in letting our sinful selves run free, and rejoices in the freedom in Christ to live the life He has called us to. In the Name + of Jesus. Amen.To Jesus we for refuge flee, Who from the curse has set us free, And humbly worship at His throne, Save by His grace through faith alone. (LSB 579:6) -Deac. Eleanor Corrow, Higher Things Board Member and coordinator in LCMS Missionary Services. Audio Reflections Speaker: Pastor Jonathan Lackey is the pastor at Grace Lutheran Church, Vine Grove, Ky.Unforgivable? Unforgiveness is a prison—mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. In a world full of turmoil, many use forgiveness as a coping mechanism without understanding what true forgiveness is. Learn what forgiveness from Christ looks like, and how He forgives His people.

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________LentLet my prayer be set forth in your sight as incense, the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.Psalm 141:2 ConfessionOfficiant: Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God.People: Almighty and most merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from your ways like lost sheep. We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts. We have offended against your holy laws.We have left undone those things which we ought to have done, and we have done those things which we ought not to have done; and apart from your grace, there is no health in us. O Lord, have mercy upon us. Spare all those who confess their faults. Restore all those who are penitent, according to your promises declared to all people in Christ Jesus our Lord. And grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake, that we may now live a godly, righteous, and sober life, to the glory of your holy Name. Amen.Officiant: Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us all our sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen us in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep us in eternal life. Amen. The Lord's PrayerOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen. Invitatory & PsalmsOfficiant: O God, make speed to save us. People: O Lord, make haste to help us. Officiant & People: Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. O Gracious Light Phos hilaronO gracious Light, pure brightness of the everliving Father in heaven, O Jesus Christ, holy and blessed!Now as we come to the setting of the sun, and our eyes behold the vesper light, we sing your praises, O God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.You are worthy at all times to be praised by happy voices, O Son of God, O Giver of life,and to be glorified through all the worlds. Psalm 69Salvum me fac1Save me, O God, *for the waters have risen up to my neck.2I am sinking in deep mire, *and there is no firm ground for my feet.3I have come into deep waters, *and the torrent washes over me.4I have grown weary with my crying;my throat is inflamed; *my eyes have failed from looking for my God.5Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head;my lying foes who would destroy me are mighty. *Must I then give back what I never stole?6O God, you know my foolishness, *and my faults are not hidden from you.7Let not those who hope in you be put to shame through me, Lord God of hosts; *let not those who seek you be disgraced because of me, O God of Israel.8Surely, for your sake have I suffered reproach, *and shame has covered my face.9I have become a stranger to my own kindred, *an alien to my mother's children.10Zeal for your house has eaten me up; *the scorn of those who scorn you has fallen upon me.11I humbled myself with fasting, *but that was turned to my reproach.12I put on sack-cloth also, *and became a byword among them.13Those who sit at the gate murmur against me, *and the drunkards make songs about me.14But as for me, this is my prayer to you, *at the time you have set, O Lord:15“In your great mercy, O God, *answer me with your unfailing help.16Save me from the mire; do not let me sink; *let me be rescued from those who hate meand out of the deep waters.17Let not the torrent of waters wash over me,neither let the deep swallow me up; *do not let the Pit shut its mouth upon me.18Answer me, O Lord, for your love is kind; *in your great compassion, turn to me.'19“Hide not your face from your servant; *be swift and answer me, for I am in distress.20Draw near to me and redeem me; *because of my enemies deliver me.21You know my reproach, my shame, and my dishonor; *my adversaries are all in your sight.”22Reproach has broken my heart, and it cannot be healed; *I looked for sympathy, but there was none,for comforters, but I could find no one.23They gave me gall to eat, *and when I was thirsty, they gave me vinegar to drink. 31As for me, I am afflicted and in pain; *your help, O God, will lift me up on high.32I will praise the Name of God in song; *I will proclaim his greatness with thanksgiving.33This will please the Lord more than an offering of oxen, *more than bullocks with horns and hoofs.34The afflicted shall see and be glad; *you who seek God, your heart shall live.35For the Lord listens to the needy, *and his prisoners he does not despise.36Let the heavens and the earth praise him, *the seas and all that moves in them;37For God will save Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah; *they shall live there and have it in possession. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The LessonsJeremiah 6:1-8English Standard Version6 Flee for safety, O people of Benjamin,    from the midst of Jerusalem!Blow the trumpet in Tekoa,    and raise a signal on Beth-haccherem,for disaster looms out of the north,    and great destruction.2 The lovely and delicately bred I will destroy,    the daughter of Zion.3 Shepherds with their flocks shall come against her;    they shall pitch their tents around her;    they shall pasture, each in his place.4 “Prepare war against her;    arise, and let us attack at noon!Woe to us, for the day declines,    for the shadows of evening lengthen!5 Arise, and let us attack by night    and destroy her palaces!”6 For thus says the Lord of hosts:“Cut down her trees;    cast up a siege mound against Jerusalem.This is the city that must be punished;    there is nothing but oppression within her.7 As a well keeps its water fresh,    so she keeps fresh her evil;violence and destruction are heard within her;    sickness and wounds are ever before me.8 Be warned, O Jerusalem,    lest I turn from you in disgust,lest I make you a desolation,    an uninhabited land.”Officiant: The Word of the LordPeople: Thanks be to God. The Song of Mary - MagnificatMy soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit rejoices in God my Savior; * for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant From this day all generations will call me blessed: * the Almighty has done great things for me, and holy is his Name. He has mercy on those who fear him * in every generation.He has shown the strength of his arm, * he has scattered the proud in their conceit.He has cast down the mighty from their thrones, * and has lifted up the lowly. He has filled the hungry with good things, * and the rich he has sent away empty. He has come to the help of his servant Israel, * for he has remembered his promise of mercy, The promise he made to our fathers, * to Abraham and his children for ever.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as It was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. John 11:28-44English Standard Version28 When she had said this, she went and called her sister Mary, saying in private, “The Teacher is here and is calling for you.” 29 And when she heard it, she rose quickly and went to him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet come into the village, but was still in the place where Martha had met him. 31 When the Jews who were with her in the house, consoling her, saw Mary rise quickly and go out, they followed her, supposing that she was going to the tomb to weep there. 32 Now when Mary came to where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet, saying to him, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33 When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in his spirit and greatly troubled. 34 And he said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” 35 Jesus wept. 36 So the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” 37 But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man also have kept this man from dying?”38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days.” 40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?” 41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.” 44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”Officiant: The Word of the LordPeople: Thanks be to God. The Song of Simeon - Nunc dimittisLord, you now have set your servant free * to go in peace as you have promised; For these eyes of mine have seen the Savior, * whom you have prepared for all the world to see: A Light to enlighten the nations, * and the glory of your people Israel.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: * as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersOfficiant: The Lord be with you.People: And also with you.Officiant: Let us pray The SuffragesThat this evening may be holy, good, and peaceful, We entreat you, O Lord.That your holy angels may lead us in paths of peace and goodwill, We entreat you, O Lord.That we may be pardoned and forgiven for our sins and offenses, We entreat you, O Lord.That there may be peace to your Church and to the whole world, We entreat you, O Lord.That we may depart this life in your faith and fear, and not be condemned before the great judgment seat of Christ, We entreat you, O Lord.That we may be bound together by your Holy Spirit in the communion of all your saints, entrusting one another and all our life to Christ, We entreat you, O Lord.Take a moment at this time to reflect and pray for the needs of others. Second Sunday in Lent (BCP 1979)O God, whose glory it is always to have mercy: Be gracious to all who have gone astray from your ways, and bring them again with penitent hearts and steadfast faith to embrace and hold fast the unchangeable truth of your Word, Jesus Christ your Son; who with you and the Holy Spirit lives and reigns, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.A Collect for PeaceMost holy God, the source of all good desires, all right judgments, and all just works: Give to us, your servants, that peace which the world cannot give, so that our minds may be fixed on the doing of your will, and that we, being delivered from the fear of all enemies, may live in peace and quietness; through the mercies of Christ Jesus our Savior. Amen.A Collect for Aid against PerilsBe our light in the darkness, O Lord, and in your great mercy defend us from all perils and dangers of this night; for the love of your only Son, our Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.For MissionKeep watch, dear Lord, with those who work, or watch, or weep this night, and give your angels charge over those who sleep. Tend the sick, Lord Christ; give rest to the weary, bless the dying, soothe the suffering, pity the afflicted, shield the joyous; and all for your love's sake. Amen. ThanksgivingsThe General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen.A Prayer of St. ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time with one accord to make our common supplication to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will be in the midst of them: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. ConclusionMay the God of hope fill us with all joy and peace in believing through the power of the Holy Spirit. Amen. - Romans 15:13

This Episode of On Culture Interacts with Gnats and Camels - from The Embassy -Here is an excerpt -Instead of a real conflict about a real situation faced by real people - answering the question how does our Christian theology fit into this real life situation? … what are the missional implications of loving those whom we are called to reach while holding to what we believe to be true theologically? We get something far stupider - “you are bad.”Jesus spent a lot of time (a distressing amount of time in the eyes of the religious leaders of the day) with people who were publicly living outside of the teachings and practices given to God's people. One of the chief “proofs” in the eyes of those leaders, the Pharisees, that Jesus could not be a true prophet was their belief that a true prophet would know how bad these people were. The assumption being that anyone who had this knowledge would not go to their houses, join them for dinner, enjoy their hospitality. They were wrong about all of that. That is the context of his saying -Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”Luke 5:31-32I can understand that some might be offended by the apparent implication that those at a same-sex or transgender wedding are the sick who need the doctor. I mean that only in so far as all of us do. Jesus' words are on two levels. Coming after his sermon on the mount, where none who honestly read this teaching would call themselves ‘righteous' - he is saying not only that these public ‘sinners' need to be restored, but that those asking the question need also to be restored, just from a different malady. It is the central lesson of the parable of the prodigal son. The older brother needs grace no less than the younger one. We all need the physician. Recognizing the need is the only qualification for receiving it.In fact, all the harsh words we see from Jesus, and there are plenty, are directed against those who should know better - in particular, the religious leaders of the day. The entirety of Matthew chapter 23 is devoted to Jesus' harsh words against these religious leaders. One passage in particular seems to apply to this controversy and to all other similar controversies in the Christian world - and there are many.“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.Matthew 23:23-24Jesus is telling some of us that we have missed the point. Fine, if you want to follow the teachings of the Old Testament to give a tenth of what you have as an offering down to the point of counting out your spices and seeds so as to get the exact right number - you may. Either way, don't neglect the more important matters of the law - justice, mercy and faithfulness. Don't miss the point. Don't strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. If you want to strain out the gnats, fine. But once you have swallowed your first camel you know that you have missed the point. You know that you have misplaced the marker of your righteousness.Read the whole piece at The EmbassyThe Embassy is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to The Embassy at theembassy.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast, Tim Sweet engages in a dynamic conversation with Richard Young, a seasoned expert in high-performance sports. The episode explores the transition from hope-to-knowing in achieving sustained success, emphasizing evidence, conviction, and a system-thinking approach. Richard, drawing from his experience with Olympic athletes, highlights the importance of simplicity, alignment, and well-being in optimizing high-performance teams. The conversation extends into the business domain, illustrating the applicability of these principles for building and sustaining excellence in various leadership contexts. Throughout the discussion, personal experiences and insights are shared, providing an exploration of the key elements that contribute to lasting success in both sports and business leadership.The episode unfolds as Tim and Richard discuss the nuances of confidence, conviction, and the mind-body connection. They delve into the impact of evidence-based decision-making, the role of a cohesive team in individual confidence, and the systemic factors that produce conviction. Richard introduces his upcoming book, "Performance Leadership," offering a preview of the systemic differences between repeat medalists and non-medalists. The episode concludes with a powerful message, emphasizing the accessibility of performance fulfillment and the importance of focusing on the journey.About Richard YoungRichard's deep knowledge of people and performance has made him a highly sought-after speaker, mentor and strategist. He has experience across 10 Olympic cycles across most roles (athlete, coach, leader, researcher). He has won international gold medals, coached world champions, and created medal-winning programmes for three countries across innovation, research, learning and leadership. Richard has a PhD in medical science and later focussed on uncovering the key differences between medallists and non-medallists, their coaches, technical staff, leaders and the system they are in. Using his first-hand experience of leading people and programmes to create change for better performance he can make new high performance work for you. In your own arena, at work, and at home! Richards's values are family, productivity, belonging, discovery and transformation. He has been described as a ‘world-class performance creator'. Born in the UK, raised in Canada, he lives in Dunedin, New Zealand with his four children (and dog Dougal).Resources discussed in this episode:Ange PostecoglouAnders EricssonBelonging by Owen EastwoodThe Living Company by Arie De Geus--Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Richard Young | Simplify2Perform: Website: simplify2perform.comLinkedin: Simplify2Perform--Transcript:Richard 00:01Hoping is a flag for evidence that's missing and knowing means the gap has been filled. So, it's a good word generally, universally for human nature to have hope but in the performance game is another trigger. And there needs to be a leader who spots that and says, Well, I hope it all comes off. And then we're looking at opportunity. And the opportunity is typically inside the gap and that could flag a gap in evidence. So, what don't we know? Tim 00:32I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. Thanks for joining us for the 27th episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Tim 01:04Well, hi, again, everybody. This is going to be one of my favourite episodes. I know that I'm confident, I don't have to wonder about that. I don't have to guess, I don't have to hope. I know it's going to be one of my favorite episodes. Why? Because I've got evidence. I've been with the wonderful person that's in front of me here today. Before I know what we're capable of. And I am fully confident. Please let me welcome Richard Young, to the podcast. Richard 01:34A right on Tim. Wow, what an intro. What an intro and same back to you too. So, always a pleasure joining, you ask deep questions and yet connect some dots. And we always get somewhere, I learn a heap.  Tim 01:47Well, the feeling is mutual. But before we get going too much for those of you that haven't checked out Richard in previous episodes, I'd like you to introduce yourself. Could you tell us who you are? Who do you serve? And what do you mean to those people?  Richard 02:04Yeah. Right on so. So, I live in New Zealand. I'm Canadian, you can tell the accent. And so I live in the south of New Zealand with my four kids by the beach here and worked in high-performance sports, primarily the Olympics my whole life. So, from an athlete, coach through to leader, and researcher all in three countries as well. Three years ago, I decided to do some of my own work, I felt without the kind of bureaucracy and the dogma around me, I could help more people faster. And so that's what I've been doing. So, I work primarily with sports leaders, so senior leaders into experts in sports, they don't necessarily run the sport, some could be ahead of medicine, and some do run the Olympic Committees and things for different countries. And I help them streamline their approach to high performance. So, typically, when you've been in the game a long time, I call it winners bloat, they've got so many good ideas, that one before, it's hard to filter. Because they can make a good case for everything that they've done before you get enough people in the room like that. And it's a real bloated place of great ideas. And so I help come in and streamline big rocks down to even bigger rocks. So, there's only a few of them. And there's a pattern in repeat medalists that I noticed. And they learned that at the end, and so I help people at the beginning, figure that out sooner.  Tim 03:33Awesome. And there's so many parallels, anybody who is listening, that's worked with me, you're gonna hear a lot of similarities. And that's because you and I come from very similar schools of thought. And we've trained together in certain practices. And so the whole idea of resolving conflict, and aligning tensions, and all of that is something that you and I are all over. So, before we got going here, I sent you a video and I thought I could really kick off our conversation today. And I was really inspired by what this person was saying, and I thought you get a real kick out of it. This is a quote from Ange Postecoglou. He's one of the premier league coaches for Tottenham MFC. And he's got a really interesting take when a reporter asks him, do you ever visualize yourself hoisting a trophy over your head? So, let's take a listen. And then we'll come back together we'll give it a talk.  Reporter 04:24Do you ever picture yourself lifting trophies as a more general question?Ange 04:28I got real pictures, mate. Quite a few of them. Just look at the ones I've got. I've earned them, I'm not lucky. I love winning, mate. That's all I've done my whole career. And now, don't say that dismissively that I've got pictures and I don't have them on my ceiling mate, as you suggested, but that's what drives me every year. I start the year hoping that at the end of the year, there is a picture of me with a team and lifting a trophy. That's what I've tried to do my whole career. And I've got plenty of evidence of that. So, that's what my sort of intent is here. It's not something that I have to visualize. It's what I do. Tim 05:14So, there's the video, what are your first thoughts when you hear that, Richard? Richard 05:19I hear the master in that leader. So, he's pointing out something very particular to the best in the game is that they do have a picture. So, Anders Ericsson, did all the research on you know, 10,000 hours and things and he had said, to become an expert, there needs to be a benchmark around you, you need to see what high performance looks like. And so some new sports of the Olympics struggle with that, you know, surfing and breaking and things like that. There's no benchmark yet. Whereas the other ones, you can see all these world records dropping, because they know the benchmark, they've seen the picture, and sometimes they're in the picture. So, what he's talking about there is, you wouldn't hire a coach who hasn't won before, is another way of putting what he's saying there is Tottenham would not hire someone who hasn't won before. So, he does have a lot of pictures. And you don't want someone learning on the fly, you want them tuning and synthesizing but not starting from zero. So, the best in the game are like him, they do have championship pictures or winning pictures around them. They may be aiming he says, aiming for better, and you know, the continuous improvement and all those things you hear about leaders, but their past is a record of victories, they have a history of winning. And that's what we find in the performance leaders in the sustained metal systems. The group, the people, the athletes are surrounded by people who have won before. And the sports that have a barren land of people who won before, they're doing their best. They're putting in a massive effort, but there's a misdirection on the main things. Tim 07:02You know, it's funny when I think of teams that I work with, it's a very common behavior for people to chart a win, really get something right, do something wonderful. And then steamroll, right past it on to the next thing, and not even take a moment to record or to acknowledge that that was a win. And then when it comes around the next time where they are having to do perhaps something very similar again, they almost can't recall that they had already, you know, had this experience. And you've talked to me before about being able to see those wins because Ange didn't start out being a Premier League winner. Those wins had to be found elsewhere. Right? So, can you talk a little bit about that for us? Because I love your perspective on this. Richard 07:53Yeah. So, his win, there's another great video of him because he was a premiership. I think he was a premiership player as well. And there's a shot of him in the dugout, and this is maybe last year with Tottenham. And the ball, you can tell based on his vision that someone's kicked the ball up high, and it's coming out of bounds, and it lands right beside him and he traps the ball. He's in a suit. Tim 08:17Oh, right. I've seen that body memory whap. Richard 08:21That's right. Yeah, taps the ball and pushes it out to the field, and just shrugs his shoulders at the crowd. Who are you, I don't know if it's a standing ovation. But anyways, just so impressive, but there's the premiership history in him. And so in sports, there's this myth. And it's important to bust myths as well that you have to have been a premiership performer, or a championship performer to be a champion leader or a champion coach. And that's like asking a leader to be the best at you know, every department, he or she manages, and impossible. And so sometimes the best athletes do not make the best leaders. They can't see out of their own self because you have to be very self-absorbed to be an athlete and then you have to see wider to be a leader and a coach. And so if you've got winning those winning they need to be with people, not just you with a metal, Look at me go. It's the leaders and the change-makers that see like him, him lifting a trophy with a team. That's what he said it's not him with a trophy. It's with the team and so that perspective for leadership is the win is on us, it's not me, is vital. And you don't often see that in the leaders who are just working their way up. It's still about me they're still trying to prove like a new athlete selected to a team. It's natural to try to prove yourself first. They found that I did research on the All Blacks, they wanted me to review their caps, they call them caps here is how many times you've been in a test match, a championship game. And so the players under 15 caps, the players between 15 and 40. And then there's a cut-off that you're a senior player after 40 and someone like Richie McCaw, who was the captain down here. And by the way, rugby is crazy down here. It's like hockey in Canada. Everything is about rugby. Even in the town I'm in when the World Cup was here, there was going to be four games, not one of them an All Blacks game. There was a referendum of petition put out to there's only 120,000 people in this town. Should we spend 150 million on an indoor stadium for these four World Cup games, It'll take us 50 years to pay it off. It was a unanimous, Yes. So, and that's what we have is an indoor stadium. So, Richie McCall, I number of caps. But the difference was, it was all me under 15 caps. It was all us but I'm not sure where I fit between 15 and 40. And it's all us. And I know where I fit after 40. So, their picture changed from a me to a we. And so that coach there that you just quoted, interesting, he points out, it's a we picture and same with a McCall, but it's him with the team and the cup. Tim 11:23Him with a team with the cup. And it's funny, because as you were saying that simplistically, I was thinking, Well, does a person have to have success as a leader going forward? No, not necessarily. I mean, this is why being part of that us as a junior, whether it's a junior person in business, or in education, or in sport, being part of it, you have to be part of the us, and then you have to think in terms of that collective thinking. And, you know, we often try to inspire that in leaders that they think, you know, around who are they serving, and that they don't get too myopic on their own needs, obviously. But this is actually a precursor for them to be able to even achieve those next levels. It's so much more than just a good habit. It actually is their conceptualization of success before success. And what does that look like? And boy, you know, I love talking to you, man, because every time there's so many examples, that, sure I may have helped people get past but it brings new light things and new realizations. And I'm right now I'm thinking of an example of a leader who was struggling. And this just explains so much that ego picture had gotten in the way that I picture had gotten in the way. Where they had all sorts of examples for WE wins, but they weren't accessing them. I mean, it speaks to one other thing. And I use one of your philosophies in my coaching practice. And it's all about that performance mindset. And once you have this experience, and again, as Ange says, in that clip, he has pictures of himself winning, he doesn't need to wonder if he can do this. You know, and you talk about hope versus know. And I always talk about in business, hope is a four letter word, don't tell me you hope something is gonna happen. Don't tell me you think it might happen. Like, let's access the data and everything we know, to take a very good educated guess of whether or not this is going to happen. And nothing's better than experience and evidence of it happening before. So, when you are working with these teams, what kind of an example would you give us about really helping somebody bridge that gap between hope and know? Richard 13:44Yeah, yeah. A lot of it is evidence-focused, right? So, the knowing means there are metrics around me or a picture that I can see this has happened and it can happen again. And so that conviction that brings for people, the data that I tracked it, six Olympic cycles now have medalists and non-medalists in a yachting group here who had won three Olympics. And they said hoping is a flag for evidence that's missing and knowing means the evidence the gap has been filled. So, it's a good word, generally, universally for human nature to have hope. But in the performance game is another trigger. And there needs to be a leader who spots that and says, Well, in the end, I hope it all comes off. So, before the Olympics, I hope I get lane eight.Tim 14:40Screeching tires. Richard 14:41That's right. Yeah. So, there's the second question that gets asked. So, performance leaders ask the second question, and then we're looking at opportunity and the opportunity is typically inside the gap and that could flag a gap in evidence So, what don't we know? So, there was one rower who was World Champion, and they started to fade and they became kind of disillusioned with their fitness and their times are wavering and stuff and so the whole support staff thought it was mindset. And so the psych team, an army of good intent, wrapped themselves around her and things then the coach looked and he came at it from the hoping/knowing and he got to investigate what might be under the hood, for he knew her well, also. But it turns out it was and I had this one in the book as well, it turned out it was the evidence that they had numbers for but she wasn't aware of them. And so he just presented those numbers to her every day on how she was tracking. And suddenly, she had evidence that it's not as bad as I thought. Feelings aren't facts, facts are facts. And so suddenly, she progressed and she became the world champion that year. And he knew it wasn't mindset, because you can't hope your way to victory. You do have to have prep, you know, that goes into flow, which we can talk about later.  Tim 16:12For sure. It's funny that you say that, because something that started with me when I used to wrestle, and it's continued through university, and even now, it doesn't happen as often now. But you say, Sorry, what? Please repeat that for me. Feelings…Richard 16:29Feelings aren't facts. Tim 16:30Feelings aren't facts. I have a very physical response when I'm feeling uneasy, or I don't have the facts, or I'm not sure of how something's panning out. I'll get tightness across my back when I was wrestling, this would show up as muscle impingement and stuff like that, right? Like it really got tight. And then all I had to do was kind of rationalize stuff. It sounds so silly, but if I was studying for a test and I was feeling tense, I'd start to feel this tension in my back. And so then I would just take stock of what I knew. And what I didn't know. And as soon as I had a handle on it, and I moved it sort of from that emotional side over to where I could see it. Honestly, sometimes it was like it felt like an injury and it just went away. Within hours. It was gone. And I've had this happen dozens of times over my life. I mean, it's this strange sort of mind-body connection. It sounds a little cheesy. But I felt, you know, I literally felt injured. Through uncertainty, I guess. Richard 17:32Yeah. Yeah. Awesome way to put it. Yeah.  Tim 17:36Well, I don't know if it's that. But it was just, you know when you said that it really gave. And I can imagine for this, this performer, once she had that data was just a deep breath. And like, Wow, I feel better right now. Like the fog just clears and the fog of war lifts and you can see what's in front of you and you remind yourself what your job is. And it's funny, you know, I think you and I've talked about this before, but when we talk about that hope versus knowing, you know, I love that there's always that circle with the pie graphs. And there's this little thin piece that says, we know what we know, these little thin piece that says we know what we don't know. And then there's this massive piece that says we don't know what we don't know. And I always think there's a fourth slice, which is that we forgot what we knew, you know, we actually failed to recognize what we already have learned and committed it to memory. Richard 18:32A friend of mine gave me a great line yesterday because he's a leader in a business. And he said a lot of my staff know what to do, but don't do what they know. Tim 18:42Yeah, no kidding. And that's a great segue, actually into the next question I got for you because you've mentioned the word conviction quite a few times here. Do you draw a distinction between conviction and confidence? Richard 18:55Yeah, so confidence is a frame, a mental frame, it is deeply inside, like your somatic sense of a feeling of being unprepared or something and that twinge in your back. So, conviction is deeply felt. It's just acknowledging and it's systemic, it's wider than me, it's bigger than me. There's something coming together here. My teammates, my staff, my home life, there's a whole picture is conviction, whereas confidence is this. That's right. Yeah, yeah. So, a much bigger piece is conviction. That's really a key difference between the sustained high performers and the rest because they are system builders. And when you have a system behind you, you just know the system's got your back, and suddenly it's conviction. Tim 19:51That's such a great way to put that. And again, when you build that system around people, and of course in the work that we do and the work that I do, so much of it is just helping people become fluent in where they are and what they've got. And that they're part of that system. And that system is around them and that it's functioning. And so really, that is that feeling of being inside something that has a purpose and has a way of operating in a system of support or rules or code or whatever it is, but it's got a way to perform. Now all of a sudden, you are in that second space where you can perform, you're in that, it's not home, something else, it's a different vocation. And you have a role. And I think that that feeling of belonging leads to confidence as much as anything else. Richard 20:39Yeah, yeah. You'd love to read called Belonging. And maybe the listeners would like to read that too, written by a Kiwi. I think he's out in Britain now. But a lot of the rugby group and on this theme of cohesion, and team cohesion is a fantastic book. And there's a difference. You just pointed something out there. To him, the confidence is me. Conviction is we.  Tim 21:06100%. Great. And I'll add this to the show notes. But does that Owen Eastwood?  Richard 21:08Yeah, that's him.Tim 21:10Owen Eastwood. Richard 21:11And he's on LinkedIn, by the way. So connected. I've connected to him. And yeah. Tim 21:17Send me an invite man. Put us together. So, unlock your potential with the ancient code of togetherness. Excellent. Okay, that is on my list for sure. So, I like that cover too, I want them to be a tattoo. Anyway. Awesome. Okay, so what have we covered, we've covered being able to see the wins and distinguish that hope from know that security that gives us and another layer of security, you have brought us into this, me versus we and this ability to access this layer of conviction now that we have purpose and everything else. And that will yield among other things, probably give us a greater sense of confidence individually because we are part of something. They've got to play off each other. I'm sure. So, man, that's fantastic. What's your thinking as were at this point in the conversation?  Richard 22:13Well, I'm not surprised we're connecting some dots here, Tim. So, you know, the synthesis between–Tim 22:14Strong galvanization? Richard 22:20Yeah. You get a couple of system thinkers, there'll be a lot of listeners out there that you know, the system thinking folk at all systems mean is people, places, and things and how they interact. It's just a helicopter view of the environment you're in, the orbit that you're in. And so everything can be framed as a system, even the video you played at the start, we could analyze his conversation, that one line from system thinking. I just got off the phone with a coach who wants some help with their plans for the World Cup. And it's basically system thinking, just to have a reflector pointed out are these really the big rocks? And how do we interconnect people, places and things? So, just good coaching, you know, like you do for your clients and leaders, all we are our system reflectors, really. And we point the lens back at the expert in front of us who knows the context. And that's what sport is. It's a series of experts, some with massive egos, by the way, a whole series of experts, and they need to be coordinated together so that their output is like all the arrows hitting the dartboard. And it's one dartboard. There's not multiple dartboards. So, yeah, that's where you find cohesion produces a team performance. That's the exciting part about sport is particularly team sport, you know, the physiology sports, that's my background, it's pretty straight, you know, you can kind of tell who's going to be within. Like rowing here is the best thing in the world, and their training is repeatedly 98 to 99% of world records. So, that's what they do, just keep going. And so physiology can do that. Whereas in a team, you never know when they're going to lift and just be that different team, you know that, wow, look at that. And there's something exciting. And that business team is just as exciting. Because the same peek, the same flow can happen in a business team. So, you asked what reflect like, what's happening, I can see all of this pointing to business, really, you know, the area that we're in these examples, you're heavy into business, I'm heavy into sport, but the bridge between the two you can you can hear the similarities between them.  Tim 24:38I'm telling you the last few months have seen me crossing over. You know, I've been involved in cycling on that side. And now I'm getting involved in curling and pickleball was the most recent. So, you know, and it all is that sort of expression of well, I think conviction is the word but I love cohesion, finding that synergy, and really helping people be their best selves together kind of thing. I want to have you back and probably before too long, because I want us to have a separate conversation on flow, because that is one of my favourite areas to teach and play with. And then we can have a business focus discussion. Before we wrap up here, it's important to note that as much as we talked about sport, you are making huge inroads into business. So, if you are a business owner, you should really be thinking about checking out Richard, and especially if you're on that side of the pond, what are you dealing with? What are some of the most notable benefits I guess I could say? Or advantages when business owners start to take lessons from what you've learned in sport? Richard 25:42Yeah, so primarily, the high-performing team. So, I know that's a big focus of yours. And in performance– Tim 25:53Now it's sustained high performance, somebody helped light me up to the difference between high performance, anybody can podium once, and sustained high performance. How do we do it over and over again? Do you remember his name? What's his name? That's right, it was Richard Young. Anyway, go ahead, please. Richard 26:13Yeah, so that's where the triangle came from. So, what I use in business and sport, and that's the theme of the next book, which is in finished drafts, so that'll be out in another probably two months. So, the key systemic differences between repeat medalists, sustained high performers, and non, and for us, it's pretty binary on metals and non so we have a pretty easy number to measure if you've got it. But inside that metal is a whole lot of depth if it's sustained. Anyone can win wants, it's actually pretty easy to win an Olympic medal, but to repeat it is totally different. And so they have a different and I don't mean to be little an Olympic medal, by the way, if there's listeners out there who've, you know, put their whole. So all I mean is the system required to do that even a business that achieves you know, they surpass all expectations. It's to repeat that. And you can just feel the difference in that while we got it together. But do we know exactly how we pulled that off, then it's more deliberative, it's sustained. So, the triangle is simplicity, alignment and well-being, so to keep it going, and there's a great book called The Living Company by Arie De Geus. He was the CEO of BP Oil a long time ago. And he was curious why some companies live longer than humans, but most don't. And the ones that live longer, that like past 100 years, they had certain things in common. They weren't connected to the ecology of their environment. They were adaptable, they were thrifty on their finance. So, it was a few things like that. And in sport, that translates to simple, we're not trying to do it all. We know what matters aligned, we're rowing in the same direction not as easy as it sounds when you've got a whole roomful of people who've won before. And then well-being means we're okay and you can feel the difference. You walk into a sport with systemic well-being. It's not gym passes, and they are fit already. But inside, there's a lot of pain in a lot of sport. And so the approach is changing completely in high performance because a lot of disasters that have happened for athletes and staff as well, which happens in other industries, but it's quite public in sport when something bad happens. And so it just means that there's all hands on deck to figure it out. So, that triangle works. And so the translation of that into business is a higher performing team. And you can call on flow, it's not psychological, it's preparation. So yeah, for sure, let's talk about that next time because there's this whole, you know, between us the session on flow, it's a deep, meaningful call to attention. It isn't something psychological. Tim 29:16I know we're going to do a good job on that one. All right. Any working title for the book right now? Richard 29:24Performance Leadership is the as the working title. Yeah. Tim 29:28Stay tuned to both of us because I'll be shouting that one from the rooftops. All right. And if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way they can get in touch with you? Richard 29:37The website or LinkedIn? So richardnyoung.com is the site that goes to simplify to perform but yeah, richardnyoung it's just a name easy to remember them. Tim 29:52No problem, we'll put it in the show notes so that it's there. And as I asked every one of my guests now. Not the last time you were on, I don't think we started this little tradition. If you had one hope for the athletes, the business owners, the founders, the leaders that are listening today, if you could hope or you wish them… well hope, let's talk about the different kind of hope. What's your wish for them? Let's talk about that. What would you like them to feel and know coming out of this, this conversation? Richard 30:23We know this, that performance is more than a metal. It's deeply personal and its fulfillment. So the ones that achieve this sustained high performance, there's a sense of fulfillment and metal or no metal, all of what we've talked about, flow, conviction, metal matters but that isn't the main thing. There's a performance fulfillment that a lot of people never get to in sport and business, and it's closer than we think. So, yeah. So, hopefully, there's some trigger in here that it might be hey, you know what, maybe I've overcomplicated things. Maybe there's a couple of smaller arrows I need to be focused on than these big arrows, maybe I'm all results-focused, and the ones who are journey-focused, they get there faster than the rest.  Tim 31:11That is an experience or that is a feeling. Fulfillment is something that everybody deserves. And a lot of people don't think it's within reach, but it is. They just need to break it down a little bit. All right, Richard Young, man. Love spending time with you.  Richard 31:29Same with you, too. Tim 31:30Alright, let's do it real soon. Richard 31:32See you for the next month. Tim 31:33Excellent, all the best.  Tim 31:39Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. Like us, if you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening. And be sure to tune in, in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

In this episode, we dive into the inspiring story of Ryan and Shane Pegg, a father-son duo who prove that age is just a number when it comes to courage and curiosity. Shane, a parent and business leader, shares practical insights into parenting, emphasizing the creation of a mistake-friendly environment. Ryan, a budding entrepreneur, recounts his experience attending the Inventures conference at the age of 12, showcasing his fearless pursuit of knowledge and networking. The conversation explores the dynamics of learning from failures, the pivotal role of mentors, and the power of encouragement in fostering innovation.Tim continues the conversation with Shane, who is currently working in a Cochrane-based incubator. Shane draws connections between nurturing creativity in children and guiding adult entrepreneurs. Tim and Shane discuss the significance of providing space for exploration, encouraging curiosity, and breaking down age-related barriers in the entrepreneurial journey. Ryan further shares insights into a school program focused on intellectual property exploration, prototyping, and marketing, providing a glimpse into the emerging entrepreneurial mindset of the younger generation. The episode concludes with Shane detailing his involvement in the incubator, where he offers support and opportunities for local businesses. Shane and Ryan encourage listeners to be fearlessly creative and curious. Fearlessness is a quality that transcends age, shaping the future of entrepreneurship.About Ryan PeggRyan loves meeting new people, creating ideas and inventing new things. He is currently a grade 8 student at Rancheview school, coming to the Rocky Mountains from Ontario and settling in Cochrane. His extra-curricular activities include track and field and playing on his school's Jr.A basketball team. Outside of school, he has been working on a startup built around the idea of fresh innovation and new creations. One of his biggest interests is hunting and getting outside, he has gone on many expeditions and adventures with his dad, scaling mountains and trekking coulees. This past summer, he competed in triathlon in the Alberta Summer Games, winning 2 silver medals.About Shane PeggShane thrives in connecting, serving and celebrating entrepreneurs and community leaders. He's spent the last 2 decades in the Kitchener-Waterloo and Calgary-Cochrane innovation ecosystems, working in and with startups, scale-ups, large companies and incubators. He currently runs the new startup incubator in Cochrane, Alberta and serves on the Boards of Innovate Cochrane and the Calgary Innovation Coalition. He enjoys outdoor adventures and various sporting activities alongside his wife and 3 children.Resources discussed in this episode:Inventures: inventurescanada.comStartup TNT: startuptnt.comCarol Dweck Amy Edmondson--Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Ryan and Shane Pegg | Innovate CochraneWebsite: innovatecochrane.comCochrane Business Incubator: cochrane.caLinkedIn: Shane PeggLinkedIn: Ryan Pegg--TranscriptRyan 00:02I feel like business is not only about the money side of things like you're not only trying to make money, you're trying to build new things you're trying to help people. And that really changed the way that I thought of it. Shane 00:18It's amazing how money can follow when you're not focused on it. But you're focused on doing good or doing something that you really enjoy doing. And you do it really well. And the money will follow if it's meant to be. Tim 00:32I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you my friend, or a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. Welcome to Episode 26 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Tim 00:32Welcome back, everybody. Thanks for joining us again, for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. Today, we're going to try something a little bit different. We have three of us here today. And I'm joined by a dynamic father and son duo who I met last summer. Well, last late spring/summer at Inventures here in Calgary. And I'm really excited to welcome Shane and Ryan Pegg to the show. Guys, thank you so much for joining me today. It's a show I've been looking forward to for quite a while. Ryan 01:36Yeah, we're excited. Shane 01:39You bet. Tim 01:39So, why we've assembled this ragtag group of travelers today is because when I first met, Ryan, Ryan had reached out to me before I was giving a talk at this particular conference. This was a guy that just was so full of gumption, and get up and go, and announced that he was coming to my session. And I just was tickled because, you know, this is a young man who is passionate about business, and really seemed to have a path in front of him. And it was just such a pleasure to have you there. And then to stand and talk to both of you after that session. And ever since it's stuck with me, and what's got me curious is to really just explore what it's like, at this point in your life, Ryan, and Shane watching Ryan go through this, and the relationship that's developing with entrepreneurship and business and leadership. And for us just to really understand what that looks like. And I think there's some exciting things there. But before we get into all of that, I just want you both to introduce yourself a little bit. So, Ryan, why don't you kick us off? Tell us a little bit about yourself. What is life like for you right now? And then we'll get into entrepreneurship and business in a little while. But who are you? Who do we see in front of us here?  Ryan 03:00Yeah, so I'm Ryan. I'm a grade eight student in Cochrane, Alberta. And I love sports, not just business, such as basketball, triathlon, running, track and field on my school team. And I just love creating new things and going into the business world and looking at what people make. Tim 03:29That's awesome and Shane, on top of being Ryan's dad, who do we have in front of us? Shane 03:33Yeah, yeah, absolutely proud dad to Ryan, also have a couple of daughters, one older, one younger. We actually moved out here, my wife and I with the kids about four years ago to Cochran from the Kitchener Waterloo area. And so yeah, my life has been in the business world working for a startup and then acquired by a company out here, which brought us out here. And now I'm currently at a sort of incubator. We get into that a little bit later. And outside of the work world, we're involved in different things around town, a couple of not-for-profits, Innovate Cochrane, and from a sports side, I really enjoy getting outdoors into the mountains. That's one of the things we're excited about being here and playing some hockey and doing some running with Ryan, trying to keep up with him now, getting harder and harder, as the years go by.  Tim 04:21Young legs, they've got the speed, that we are certainly blessed with the mountains and having that nearby. And it's one of the real perks about living here. That's great guys. Ryan, maybe we can get into this a little bit when we think about what you're interested in. And there's lots obviously, you're interested in sport, you're interested in nature, you're interested in drinking it up right now. But specifically when we talk about what was that motivation to get to that, Inventures that entrepreneurial and innovation conference? What would drive you there? Ryan 04:57So, really my dad was gonna go to this conference and almost as a joke, I was like, Oh, can I come? And he was like, do you really want it? And I'm like, oh, yeah, sure. And he found a way to do it. And I was planning, like a week ahead of where I was going to go, what I was gonna do, everything. And I had it all planned out, and then emailed you or sent you a message. And it just started from there. Tim 05:33Awesome. Well, Shane, what was that like for you? Was that surprising to have Ryan make that request? Or can you paint us a picture of how that actually went down?  Shane 05:44Yeah, not necessarily surprising, you know, Ryan and his siblings have done and he'll probably talk this about a little bit more later. But they've done a little bit of entrepreneurial stuff before this. And so when he reached out, he loves, they all love getting into different adventures like this. And so it's like, yeah, you can come. But you know, this is, it's a big conference. And so make sure you do some prep work for that. And so that's why he did the research, the full schedule when he came out. And we talked about it and suggested maybe reaching out to some of the folks you never know until you ask, you can get into pretty interesting adventures. And so that's what he did, is reaching out to you. And it was exciting to be there. I knew a few people there but didn't know a lot of people, but having him there and then turning them loose at the event. I didn't go to your session, he went to your session, as you know, later on in the conference. It was encouraging to see that and just for him to take the lead and how to kind of lean into that and kind of create that space for him to go and do that. And that was exciting for me to see. Tim 06:44Let's talk about that space a little bit. Why is it important to create that space for you? Shane 06:48I find that each of these kids have their own interests and their own potential. And we can try to live our lives vicariously through them, or we can try and help them live their lives. And that space often can surprise you and delight you, watching what they do, maybe sometimes frustrate you, but watching that to say, hey, he's going to become who he was made to be. And part of that is giving him that freedom to go and explore, to try new things. And that space is, you can keep them close to you. And obviously, there are times when you need to for safety reasons. But on an event like that, at that time, he was 12 years old, he didn't have a phone, and he was in downtown Calgary, we turned him loose, and said, Hey, go to a couple of these sessions. We'll meet you back in a couple of hours. That was the plan. And there were 1000s of people at that conference. And so and he figured it out. And when you create a space like that, it creates that sense of independence, I think that's kind of part of the entrepreneurial journey is there are a lot of things you need to figure out. And there's no playbook for entrepreneurs, you got to kind of figure things out on your own. And have you just create that space to do that. Tim 07:59So, Ryan, you were turned loose at this conference? And besides the sessions themselves, what was that like? What was it like to sort of be under your own steam?  Ryan 08:08So, it definitely felt adventurous, like, you know, I was off on my own, there's a ton of people, but it just made me go like wherever I wanted, because, you know like I was alone. So, I could look at this stuff, look at different stuff, and just do what really I wanted to do. Instead of talking to people, my dad wanted to talk to or like doing the things that he had already planned to do. I could just like wander. And I love that, you know. Tim 08:41Yeah, well all those that wander are not lost. So, when we think about that, when you say you did things that you wanted to do, what were you looking to do? What were you looking to discover in that conference? Ryan 08:54I wasn't really looking to discover anything. I had some sessions planned out, like with you, and a few other people. And during the time between those sessions, I wandered, and I found exhibits, people to talk to like some people commented and like, Hey, you're kinda young to be here. I'm like, Oh, yeah. And then we just the conversation started from there. And then I met new people. And yeah. Tim 09:26What were the big takeaways that you managed to take away from the day?  Ryan 09:31Definitely, a lot from your conference. I have a full sheet of all the different notes that I took from your session. But the biggest one is that I feel like business is not only about the money side of things like you're not only trying to make money, you're trying to build new things. You're trying to help people. And that really changed the way that I thought of it.  Tim 10:00Wow. What's it like to hear that Shane? Shane 10:03Oh, it's encouraging I think there's only so much a parent can say that's actually going to stick. It's, you know, often it's somebody a complete stranger or something else that they read or see or hear from others. And so it's encouraging, you know and you try to model kind of an attitude of generosity and compassion, thinking of others and other first mentality. That's kind of a big part of life here. It's what about others, kind of takes your focus off of yourself. And so the kids are all great at doing that. And, yeah, it's encouraging. And that's certainly a life lesson that we find later in life. It's amazing at how money can follow when you're not focused on it, but you're focused on doing good or doing something that you really enjoy doing. And you do it really well. And the money will follow if it's meant to be. Tim 10:50Yeah, Ryan, I know you've got lots of ideas on the go, you're fostering a lot of things you've got, you're moving in different directions. When you think of that, and understanding that you're still at the genesis of a lot of what you're thinking, what does this open up for you as possibilities for your future and what you're interested in doing? Ryan 11:09Well, I feel like a lot of people have told me, I'm very creative. And sometimes I just get like a sketchbook and start jotting down random ideas. And these ideas, I'm suddenly like, Hey, this could work. And it starts like refining the idea, why would it work? Why wouldn't it? And just making it better. And these can be like, starters for business, and new ideas?  Tim 11:44Yeah. So, we were talking in the prep session that we had for today about some of the things that you're doing at school. And maybe you can tell us a little bit about the class that you find yourself involved in right now. Then I'd like to ask a few more questions. Ryan 12:01Yeah, so the class is an option that we have, but we don't really get to choose the option, all students do it. And we have to create an idea with either a partner or create an idea by yourself, and you'll be paired with someone. And when you have the idea, you have to go through different steps of creating the idea. So, we just finished doing a patent application. And then we have to build it, market it, create ads for it, and then a final product, which we can sell out a little business show at the end of the year, sometime, and people can actually buy your product. Tim 12:45So, you're learning about intellectual property, you're going through prototyping, you're going through marketing, probably market testing, then you're getting out into this. You know, everybody has their favorite subjects at school. Some people love art, some people love math, some people love science. What makes it easy to like that class? Do you think? What kind of people tend to gravitate towards really enjoying a class like that? Ryan 13:10They're really creative ones, for sure. They like creating the ideas. They're the ones that have the most love for that kind of stuff, where some people only like sports or video games. If you like creating stuff or like drawing, the arts, then you could create whatever you want almost like find a way to make that. So. Tim 13:36I mean, entrepreneurialism is a creative pursuit. So, Shane, when you think about your role now in an incubator, and we look at how this kind of parallels what you might see when people come in with ideas, and when they're fired up about maybe learning the basics, or just bringing something to market or going through. What strikes you about seeing this happen at Ryan's age, in a junior high school, versus watching this happen when you're at a municipally funded, you know, incubator?  Shane 14:11Yeah, well, first off, it's exciting that they're creating that course and the opportunity for these kids to go through, not all of them are gonna get into it. Like, Ryan may be more into that. And other kids might be more into other subjects. So, for them to kind of foster, create that environment that they could do that I think it's great, and then those that are interested in it. I think as a parent, it's great to be able to kind of show that support and ask the questions. And you know, when you're asking questions, we might know a little bit more on certain things than they do but we don't know a lot. Like, I learned a lot listening to Ryan, sometimes what he says goes over my head, like oh, I had never even thought about that. And so I think of other people in my life that I will bring into Ryan's life. It could be other friends of mine that are mechanical engineers, Ph.D. Bring them in, and it's like, you're probably going to be better off talking to my son than I am at some of these things he's thinking about. And so watching them kind of learn and ask questions and start getting into that, at that age, I think it's a neat opportunity, we'll see where he wants to go, interest can change, obviously, quickly. But at this point, you know, he's got that. And so we'll feed into that, and again, create those opportunities kind of in his life that if you want to continue pursuing it, and he's got questions, if I don't have answers, other people do, and I'm not afraid to kind of ask others to get involved and say, Hey, why don't you have a conversation with Ryan and approach him? Tim 15:39In your role at the incubator, it's very much sort of in that mentorship space where you're connecting people and helping people deal with their own blocks and whatnot. And not unlike my role, I may be faced with a person that perhaps is an employee and wants to get into an entrepreneurial experience, they want to buy a business or they want to take something to market. And often it's dealing with the trepidation and the fear or the blocks that they've got in front of them. And helping them sort of get past those, get networked, and deal with the roadblocks that face them one after another. From your professional experience, when you're dealing with adults that are trying to bring something out for the world, do some good in the world. What would you see as some of the roadblocks that you commonly see facing people? What are they bumping up against, which threatens to stop them in their tracks? Shane 16:33There are a few things that I think of, a conversation just today with some folks that are either in incubator or thinking about coming in. It's around connections to maybe expertise, or kind of opportunities that I know I want to go here, but I don't know who to talk to. And so they're looking for connections, it might be for sales channels, it might be for talent, it might be for kind of equipment, that how to? I know where I want to go. Yeah, it could be yes, either. It's usually like, you know, obviously, if you talk to any of them, I need access to funding, I need talent, I need access to customers and the channels to get there. But I find there are some very passionate people that are smart, have a few connections here, but they're just unaware of what's going on in the ecosystem. And just Alberta, Calgary, and Cochrane or Cochrane and greater Cochrane/Calgary is there's a ton of great resources and programs and people available. And it's amazing that if you can make a connection, then just get out of the way. And so, you know, even up for Ryan and others his age, they don't know they're not exposed to this yet. But the adventures conference was just one example of meeting some very interesting people like yourself, like, look where the opportunity went. Ryan reached out to you and next thing you know, a few months later, we're sitting here on this podcast. Which is pretty neat.  Tim 17:54Yeah, I do a lot with Startup TNT, here in Calgary. And that is another group that's really, yeah, interested in unlocking the potential and great ideas and good businesses, and getting them in touch with people that can stand behind them and have their back and really help them move forward. And it's such a fun experience. And in the time that I've been there, given that it is in that precede focus, there's so much to learn. But when I met you, Ryan, and one of the observations that I would make, and even just thinking about what you're saying, Shane is, the questions and the fears that are blocking people even in adulthood, are the same things that Ryan is up against. It's the same things like they're not age specific. And I'm wondering, Ryan, can you hear what I see, and I don't know if this rings true for you, is that elements that you could consider challenging are the same things that adults face. There's no monopoly on where the good ideas come from and where the drive comes from. And I mean, I've met several people, your age, Ryan, and there's a difference. Some of them are interested in that creative exercise, and it's going to express in many different ways. And others are not so much interested in that. And that seems to track well with what we see in business generally, where we have a certain personality type or certain workstyle or a certain expression of value that likes to go forth and really try difficult things and push the boundaries and find the edges and challenge themselves. And I know Shane, you know, you and I've had a short talk about that, that opportunity to really help people find the edge and I don't think it's just Ryan, I think you're helping these entrepreneurs find their edge you know, you're not there yet a little bit further. Go take a risk, drive fast, don't use the brakes. Shane 19:56I think that's what's needed with Ryan and kids his age are, they're more fearless than us, like, look at them, whether they're bombing down to ski hill, or, you know, keen to get behind the wheel of a vehicle, little bit time there yet Ryan, but close. But they're just, they're fearless. And they're surrounded by a bunch of peers that are into all sorts of different things. As you get older, you start to kind of gravitate towards people that are like you. And so then sometimes you can lose that creativity based on kind of who you're hanging out with, what you're listening to. And often, your leaders talking about, listen to a diverse range of podcasts, read different books. And so as kids, you're surrounded by a bunch of kids you've been thrown together with at school, some of them are into hunting, some of them are into crafting like they're just into all sorts of different so that creativity there and that fearlessness are two amazing qualities based on your environment and how do you, when you get older, and you get a little bit more comfortable with where you're at who you're around, be able to ask different people for help, for questions, have that humility? You know, we start to think we know more as we get older. But as you get wiser and learn more realize, man, it's like, we get less smart as we learn more because we realize there's so much to grow. And the kids are just curious, and they're willing to try things, which is exciting to watch. Tim 21:15Yeah, I don't know if I've mentioned this to either of you. But my father was a principal. He was a principal in a school and an educator, and he actually specialized in Ryan's age group, and really how to bring that forward. And he was the principal here at the Calgary Science School, which later became Connect Charter. And they are really into that sort of innovative space. And he used to say, and I remember at his retirement when he was talking to the kids, he said, you know, be mindful of your friends, because your trajectory of success is going to largely be the average of those you surround yourself with. And I've always thought that such a good piece of advice because there's, you know, we want to make sure that we're surrounded both in our jobs and in our personal relationships with people that lift us up. And yes, there's going to be the time when we have to lift other people up, but we can't, or we have to be careful not to be dragged down, in a sense, and settle for that lowest common denominator, you know really– Shane 22:13Yeah, wise words, wise words. Tim 22:14So, Shane, you said that it's important to give them space, right, to make sure that they have a chance to find their own way.  Shane 22:25Right, you know one of the things that came to mind there is trying to create an environment and model, the fact that you're going to make mistakes, and it's okay. And I as a parent, you know, I make a lot of mistakes. I just think of it last week, I came in, I came in after a day at work, we had some things to do afterwards, we had the kids I'm like, my daughter and Ryan, like, Okay, can you guys like the barbecue? We're gonna have a quick barbecue, and then we got to get rolling, we got a sporting event. And I came in, and they're like, hey, barbecue, I haven't lit the barbecue, like what, it was like 10 minutes ago, like, but I came in hot. I was kind of frustrated. Like, I'm like here, grab this, and then I went and started it, and then lit it and got going but at the dinner table, I'm like man, like that's the wrong, there's a teachable moment right there. Right? And so you got to kind of suck up your pride. And say, and Ryan knows this, I've had to apologize a few times, right? And it's like, Hey, listen, sorry. And then just walk through. Here's what I should have done. Like, if I could replay that scene, I'd say, hey, laugh about it's like, oh, yeah, it can be tricky. And you guys have never lit this barbecue like this before. And walk them through it, model that, and show them that. So, there are a few lessons that you try and teach. And again, that's one example. There are many more that did not end as maybe great as that. But model that for them. Of it's, A. it's okay to mess up like dad messes up and then kind of walk through it and then talk and say what was the lesson learned and ask for forgiveness, and grow. And I think the people in Ryan's life, like you and others, take an interest, listen and ask questions, and ask him about what he's doing, which almost gives him permission to try things and work on it, and laugh at the mistakes and not berate him, instead of making a statement about a screw-up. Maybe ask them a Question. Hey, what do we learn? And how can we improve next time? Tim 24:19I mean, people that criticize you when you make a mistake, and they're armchair quarterbacking from a safe position. They don't have the information that we have, in the moment that we're making that mistake. And I just finished reading a book by Carol Dweck, but also Amy Edmondson, which I've referenced in the show before, her work is all about failing well, like how do we learn to fail forward? Or how do we learn to understand what it takes to be resilient and really, you know, make those steps and know that it's not about getting it right. It's about getting it. It's about over time, getting up, it's about getting it right eventually. After we learn, right, you can learn very few things through immediate success, you learn a whole bunch through short, consistent failures, that get you to the right answers. Right?  Shane 25:16Yeah, I think that resiliency is key. We talked, my wife and I talked about that as we moved west again, like, we're not moving to another country, like when we moved from Ontario out west here, when the kids were four years ago younger. And there's level of resiliency, like Ryan had his buds back there, and all our family. And so there's a level of resiliency of coming out here that we as parents need to understand, it's one thing for us to come out there and, you know, develop our new friendships, but also kind of looking out through the eyes of our kids. And there's a level of resiliency there. And so we love that it's tough, you're gonna kind of fail, I'm trying to make new friends and see it's tough, but you can either kind of swoop in and try and fix it for them, or walk along beside them in the journey and support them as they are finding their new friends, finding their way. Tim 26:02So, I'm curious, Ryan, do you follow anybody in the business world at large, or any celebrities or anybody that you find, starts to emulate kind of where you could see yourself going? Ryan 26:15I would consider you pretty famous. Tim 26:18Oh okay, thank you. I appreciate that. Ryan 26:18Yeah, you. For sure, bigger people, maybe huge business leaders like Jeff Bezos, maybe I could, maybe I could build a business big like him, or just be a leader, like you, or my dad, who's just running the incubator, and teaching people or you was also teaching people how to lead their team and bring their company to victory, I guess?  Tim 26:58Well, I mean, the most important thing here is that you figure out who you are going to be. And we find ways to tap into that, because you're gonna have your own very special way of bringing all this together. And whatever that is, I'm sure it's going to be fairly fantastic. Let's go the other direction really quickly, either for yourself or somebody that you've seen, been working with Ryan at school or otherwise. What would deflate somebody who's trying to take a risk? You know, when we talk about things that adults can say, or friends can say, that can really make it hard to take that risk? Could you pinpoint something for us? Ryan 27:40Yeah, so just telling them that it's going to be too hard is probably the biggest way. But anything that brings them down, like, it's too hard, it's gonna cost too much, you're not gonna be able to do it. You're not creative enough, anything that's gonna bring them down, it's gonna, and you have to bring them up instead of put them down. Because if you bring them up, then they're more likely to succeed. And build their path to victory. Tim 28:13Yeah, it's funny. And Shane, I want to give you a minute here, to formulate an answer. Well, I'd like to know what you're able to say to people when they hear that or they come to you having been challenged in that way. For myself, when somebody tells me not to do something, because it's too hard. Or if they come to me and say, they're not going to do something, because it's too hard. I will usually one of my key tools to come back. And as well, how are you calculating hard? Like, what does that actually mean? You know, is it too much time? Is it too much effort? When you say this is going to be too hard? You know, what are you seeing as being the effort, get into hard for me, so I can understand what you mean? Because their definition of hard, if they have one, and often they don't. It's just kind of this big, nebulous thing, that they're saying, oh, there's this boogeyman out there called hard and you're not going to be able to get past it. But when you ask them to actually explain it, they can't. It's just kind of this nebulous fear. Rather than saying, well, it's going to be really hard, because you're going to have to go and meet at least 20 people, and you're going to have to find funding for at least $100,000. And you're going to have to go and you're going to have to find experts in this space of design and you're gonna and by the time you walk them through all that. It's like, that's all stuff to do. But it's complex, not hard. It's something that I can put on a plan and say, gotta find $100,000, all right, can do it. Test the number, maybe it's $25,000, maybe it's $2,000. Maybe it's nothing. Right? But you know, get curious and quantify and, you know, before you stop yourself, just say and what do you mean hard? Like, what does that actually mean? So, Shane, what do you say to a person that comes up and says that they're thinking about packing it in because it's too hard? Shane 30:10Probably somewhat similar to what you do and your approach is. I just kind of asked them the question back of, okay, well, what are you going for? What is it that needs to be done? And then when you start breaking it down to those bite-sized bits, like you've said, like, if what was going through my mind was the same thing as you were just audibly saying is, okay, well, let's break it down. Like if you, Okay, so you last year you made $100,000? This, you need to make a million dollars. Okay. Well, how many customers does that represent? Okay, well, let's break it down just 12 months, there's four quarters, let's break it down monthly. What do you need to do? How many calls do you need to make? And then based on, you know, a 5%, close rate on that? Let's break it down. It's okay. Well, that means that you need to make 10 calls every day. Can you make 10 calls every day? Yeah. Okay. Well, let's just start. And then it just needs let's just start. Because the whole process of try something, learn, adjust, repeat. Like, that's business. It's, let's try something, especially in the startup phase, like people say, Oh, we pivot. It's almost like the word startup, the definition of startup is pivot. Like, you're constantly changing and trying and like, No, this didn't work that didn't work. It's all revolving around talking to the customer, the end user, the person you're with, like, how do you learn from them? And so really just asking the person, what is it and then it's that having that belief, like you said, there can be self-limiting beliefs. But sometimes you just need somebody to believe in them. Somebody needs to encourage them to challenge them. And you know, we both are into leadership and listen to great leaders and try to emulate them. You hear these great leaders, if you dig into all their pasts, I've had somebody or people in their lives that have challenged, encouraged, and called them to a higher level of leading and of living.  Tim 31:53Yup. Now you're speaking to the choir, because I mean, that's what I built my business around. That's what I'm interested in. Yeah. It's funny when we think about this, it reminds me of a story I have about my daughter. She's 18 now, but when she was quite young, I think she was probably seven, six or seven. She came to me and she said, Dad, I want a Barbie. And I said that it was this mermaid Barbie. And I said, okay, and she said, Can we go get one? I said, Sure. How much money do you have? And she said I've got eight dollars. I said, How much is the Barbie? The Barbie is $14. And I said, Well, I guess you can't buy the Barbie yet. That's what you want to do, is buy the Barbie. But I said I'll tell you what and we went to the store. And we bought five pounds of sugar. And we bought a bag of apples and I sprung for some chopsticks. And I sat and I worked for free. And I colored the sugar and I candied some apples and I put them on a tray and she walked out front. And she sold one for three or two for five. And she ate one or two. She pretty soon she came back and she had you know, I think it was 40 or 45 bucks or something she had anyways, it was a fair amount. I think people gave her more money than they were worth. But anyway, they gave her lots of tips. And she said oh can I buy the Barbie now? And I said well, you could. Yeah, you could buy the Barbie now. Or, and so then we took that 50 bucks or whatever it was back to the store we bought, you know, four or five bags of apples and a bunch more chopsticks and we still had sugar leftover. And I stood there the next week and I candied apples and there's these poor suckers. These kids down the street trying to try to hock lemonade. Well, lemonade wasn't selling but those candied apples sure did. And so we did that a few times. And by the end of it, she had, you know, this box full of like 600 bucks. She had cornered the market of Northwest Calgary for candied apples. And, you know, but it lit something in her. And so now she's running her own jewelry business. And she's done that for a couple of years, just out of high school, and now it's just going live online and the rest of it and she's still looking for work and whatnot. But she runs stock. And two summers ago, we learned about identifying her core market, we changed her messaging, and she rebranded and, you know, she's been able to do really well identify her market niche, not you know, not sell things that other people are selling, really hit the you know, and so it lights something in kids and it sure is exciting to see. You know, because it's just such, it's they're good lessons for life in terms of you want to do something, break it down, get it done. And it's not about I was also gonna say actually, as we were talking there, I've always thought that we shouldn't call it startup. You know, I think that's such a dumb word. You know, I need startup capital, or we're going to run a startup thing. I'm starting to think we should call it keep going. Right? Like, maybe we should say I need to keep going fund or we need to do you know what I mean? Because anybody can start up but can you keep going? I think is one of the key determinants there. So, maybe that yeah. Okay. Right on? Well, it's been a lot of fun for me today, having you here. Maybe before we say goodbye, we could cover a few bases here. Ryan, what do you have on the go right now in life, it doesn't have to be anything specific. But what's got you excited? What's got you excited as we move through the year here?  Ryan 35:29So, on the business side, I've just finished creating a first prototype of a future product that I wanna sell. And this is like a rough draft, I made it using an old t-shirt and cut it up. But first draft and it turned out great. I learned a lot, how it was built, and all that. And I'm hoping to build that to another level. Tim 36:00Well, when you're ready to launch it on the world and tell us because I know right now, you're still behind a veil of secrecy, which is just fine. But we're going to have you back. And we're going to make sure that we tell as many people as we can when you're ready to take that to the next step. Ryan 36:14Sounds good. Tim 36:15Sound like fun? Ryan 36:16For school. I'm on the school's junior A basketball team. And tomorrow, actually, we have a basketball tournament. And we've been working hard. So, we hope we do well. And learning lots, this is our first tournament of the year, so. Tim 36:37Good luck with that. This is where the rubber meets the road. And all that hard work is gonna come and be put to the test. That's excellent. Shane, how about you? What's up? Shane 36:47Yeah, well, you know, these three kids of ours and watching the journey they're on and becoming who they were created to be is definitely exciting. And every day is a new adventure. So, loving that, on the work side, just started working the last couple of months at this new incubator here in Cochrane. And so kind of filling it and trying to become that place where if you want to start or grow a business in Cochrane, Alberta, or surrounding area, hey, we're gonna help you out and watching some of these businesses interacting with them, and seeing kind of the potential they have and helping them try to get to where they want to go. It's just super exciting. It's super encouraging, knowing being part of a startup in the past and the journey that it is, I got a little bit more empathy for them. And it's just neat because you kind of feed the fire, right, and just add fuel to that passion that they've got and it's just super exciting to watch. Tim 37:45Well, and you and I've had a couple of good conversations now about what it's like to see these incubators run in smaller towns, and what they're going to do for smaller towns now that we've had this revolution in work-from-home, or the caps have really been taken off the monopoly that large civic centers had on business. Well, how is this going to change the world as we see these incubators be more local for people? It's going to change where people feel they can operate? Shane 38:19Yeah, and connecting with others in the community. Like, we got the headquarters for Garmin, Canada, located right in Alberta. But you've got all sorts of great not-for-profits and other businesses that you connect the community together. And it becomes more than just a few small business startup founders. But it's the whole community where you've got mentors helping them out and then being inspired. And this this whole element of innovation happening in our community, which is super neat. And engaging with the local high school is going to have a pitch competition. And then Ryan's going to be on there next year, our oldest daughter is in high school. And so it just feeds from the youth, right up and giving back. Tim 39:00And tapping into that amazing energy. Yeah. So, I'm going to have you back. And I want to talk to you about that at a later time. Because I think that there's a lot of cool stuff there too. But if people want to get in touch with you through the Cochrane incubator, where can they find out more about that? And then where could they contact you directly? Shane 39:17Probably the best place to start is by reaching out to me directly on LinkedIn. They can just find me Shane Pegg on LinkedIn. And then through the town of Cochran, if you go to the town of Cochran, go under the business incubator spot, it's under the business section. You'll be able to kind of learn about the incubator and then just reach out to me directly or dropping in for anybody that's local. At the station, right downtown Cochran, they can kind of stop in and take a tour of the incubator and see how we can help them out.  Tim 39:43Right on. Here's a question that I ask everybody as we wrap up. Ryan, if you can think about the people that are listening, they're going to be all different ages. There's going to be some adults, they're going to be some people that are working in businesses right now, they got jobs, there's going to be some people that are maybe founders, maybe thinking about becoming founders, might be people that are wanting to shift into leading teams and this kind of thing. If you could give them a wish. If you could wish anything for them, do you know what that would be? Ryan 40:16I feel like it would be bring the idea to life and do what you want to do. Don't just follow on someone else's path that they've said, oh, yeah, you should go this way. Or you should do this job, or invent this idea. You should just create your own idea and really make that a business or– Tim 40:41Or let it rip. Shane, how about yourself? If you could wish anything for a listener today, what would it be? Shane 40:49I'd go back to probably one of the first comments we made is creating space and opportunities for the youth like Ryan and others. For that learning, for building the courage, for curiosity. How do you allow them that opportunity to explore what they're interested in? And just keep kind of feeding that fire. Tim 41:14Well, you've certainly created some space for me there, fellas, so I appreciate that today. Okay. Can't wait to follow along and see how things shift here for you. And I just want to say another really big thank you for taking the time to come on today. Ryan 41:29Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you for having us. Shane 41:32Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity, Tim. Tim 41:34All right, well, good luck at your basketball tourney tomorrow. We will catch up real soon in the future, and all the best guys. Tim 41:47Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too, by sharing this with your friends, teams, and colleagues. Thanks again for listening. And be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading

In this episode of the Physician Empowerment Podcast, Dr. Kevin Mailo engages in an insightful conversation with Christian Wigmore, a medical student at UBC and the mastermind behind Budget Your MD. Together, they illuminate the critical role of financial literacy within the realm of medical education and practice. The discussion spans pivotal topics such as navigating student debt, management of lines of credit, and the influence of interest rates.Christian introduces his business, Budget Your MD, a debt projection tool and visual aid that empowers medical students to foresee their financial trajectory across various scenarios. The discourse places a strong emphasis on cultivating balanced financial habits that harmonize with professional ambitions, family life and personal dreams. Christian envisions a future where financial education seamlessly integrates into medical curricula, fostering a supportive community for open financial discourse within the medical community. Such an initiative, he believes, will play a pivotal role in alleviating burnout issues among physicians, ensuring a brighter, more empowered future for the medical profession as a whole. By melding financial wisdom with medical expertise, Christian and Dr. Kevin Mailo discuss how physicians can work toward a more prosperous and balanced lifestyle in the world of healthcare.About Christian Wigmore During Christian's first year at UBC Medical School, he noticed the lack of financial education integrated into the curriculum. Recently completing his double degree in Business and Biology, the importance of financial literacy heading into medical school was top of mind. He thought… we will be running small businesses and managing our personal finances in 6 years. Understanding the basics of finance is crucial to ensure we don't A) get taken advantage of by financial institutions and B) don't end up losing all the money we make in the process. All this, and much more, led Christian to start Budget Your MD. He tends to think of it as a passion project that he is slowly building as he progresses through medical school. Noticing the topics and problems his colleagues are interested in at each stage in the game. Christian hopes to one day play an integral role in changing how finance is discussed in the medical field. To not avoid these conversations, but rather dig deep to help one another live our best financial lives as physicians (because if we're being honest, our finances play a role in our health and wellness).--Physician Empowerment: website | facebook | linkedinChristian Wigmore/Budget Your MD: website | instagram | email |--Transcript: Dr. Kevin Mailo 00:01Hi, I'm Dr. Kevin Mailo, one of the CO hosts of the Physician Empowerment Podcast. At physician empowerment, we're dedicated to improving the lives of Canadian physicians, personally, professionally, and financially. If you're loving what you're listening to, let us know we always want to hear your feedback. Connect with us. If you want to go further, we've got outstanding programming, both in-person and online. So, look us up. But regardless, we hope you really enjoyed this episode. Dr. Kevin Mailo 00:34Hi, I'm Dr. Kevin Mailo, one of the CO hosts of the Physician Empowerment Podcast. And I have today with me, our guest on the pod, Christian Wigmore. And I'm not introducing him yet as Dr. Christian Wigmore, because Christian is a medical student at UBC. And he founded a very interesting venture called Budget Your MD, and I wanted to share it because Christian connected with me over social media, we got talking, we had one of those great phone calls that I think was supposed to be probably five or 10 minutes. And it wound up being like an hour or two talking life, talking dreams, talking finance, talking career. And then of course, Christian joined us at our conference in 2023, and it was amazing to meet him in person. And we've stayed in touch ever since. So, I'm very glad to have you here, Christian. I love your passion. I love what you're trying to do for your fellow learners but I think there's a lot of wisdom here for us going through our careers, like I'm a mid-career physician, and I love your message. So, tell us a little bit about like your background. Tell us a little bit about what you were doing before medical school. And what you did you know, once you entered medical school? Christian Wigmore 01:41Okay, well, first off, super glad to be here. I can think back to when I messaged you first on, I think it was LinkedIn. And I think I might have messaged like six or seven other people, no answers, but you answered me right away, and then we get on that phone call. And then off we go to the conference in May. It's been cool to get to know you. It's so yeah, super glad to be here. So yeah, my name is Christian. I'm a fourth-year medical student at UBC. My journey has been pretty centred around medicine to start. I knew kind of in high school, I wanted to do medicine, you go to university, you do the sciences. But funny enough, like if you are UBC grad or you know how UBC medical school works, you get to drop your worst year. And I met my wife in second year and got like the worst grades.Dr. Kevin Mailo 02:27Was it worth it?Christian Wigmore 02:31Oh, well, I'm still married to her, right? So, I got the worst grades that year and I knew I needed to have a little bit extra time before that bad year can be dropped before getting into medical school. So I was like, What am I going to do? I grad with a science degree, that's going to leave me doing what? I know I don't really have an interest in something outside of medicine with a science degree. So, why not start taking some business courses, right? So I started doing business courses, and I realized, wow, I kind of liked this stuff. And you know, that wheel starts turning and I realized, okay, maybe if I start doing summer courses and push a little harder, I can grad with a science and a business degree. And so that ended up taking me five years. And after that, I found a small little internship in the midst of COVID with a financial advisor and kind of was able to be his associate and just watch the way he ran his business. And it wasn't only finance, but it was kind of more of like the operation side and entrepreneurship that really started to make me realize that there's that world out there. Like they don't teach any of that in science, you don't really learn any of it in high school. And so that got me excited. But that year I got into medical school, right? And that's the golden ticket everyone's waiting for is they think about medicine. And so after medical school, I went, but I guess over that time, the business mind was still kind of ticking at times. Dr. Kevin Mailo 03:46So, when calls that the white coat, black suit mentality, right? Do you wear the white coat when you're in your clinical work and the black business suit when you're managing your finances or your practice? So yeah, keep going, keep going. Christian Wigmore 04:01Totally. So like, I think originally, I was always believing that I would kind of wear that black coat, I guess like in my own personal finances, thinking about the ways that I'll eventually run a corporation through my medical practice or something like that. But what I started to notice is just the lack of any financial topics, discussion, or education at medical school. And then I realized I have friends around me that didn't necessarily have that same mind. And I said, Well, why don't we start talking about this stuff more? What? Why is this something that's never spoken of? The preceptors we work with don't really talk about it. And sure it maybe doesn't apply to us immediately as a first-year medical student, but eventually it will. So, when will this part of our education come into play? And I speak to people higher up than me, doesn't really seem like it's ever happening. And then I said well, you know, between studying and doing other things I kind of like finance and I probably know enough that I can make a few Instagram posts, so I start Budget Your MD is the name that I call it, right? And start to make little infographic posts and see how it goes. And at that time, it's still slow growing, and students are slowly finding out about it. But what I find is, as I go through each year of medical school, I'm able to see the questions, and topics and interests that students would have at that time. Like, I'll give an example in first year, it's the line of credit, like, what does that mean? I all of a sudden have been given sorry, $350,000 from a bank. What does that look like for me as a medical student? What is interest? How does interest even work? And you know, which bank offers the best package? And so that's kind of what I've used as an area to at least keep people interested on things that they're currently going through. And as now I go into fourth year, I realized disability insurance questions like that. Things that come up that are these decisions that require a little bit of financial savviness to understand, are being put on people's plates, right?Dr. Kevin Mailo 05:58I love that and so, you know, what are some of the big issues that and let's go a little bit beyond medical students to, you know, residents to fellows, people in early year practice. What are some of the struggles that people face in these early years? Because I think the big one for medical students is blowing through that line of credit, right? I remember, when I went through, it was low, ultra-low interest rates following the financial crisis, right? And so it was like how wasn't that bad, but interest rates have gone up massively, right? And so we have learners that are struggling with the thought of this interest piling up. But we also have a lot of physicians who have personal lines of credit used for consumer purchases, and it went from being tolerable to being very painful. If you think of it this way, and there's just little thing, and then we'll get back to the interview. But if you have a personal line of credit that you used for whatever home renovations or consumer purchases, whatever it is, and that line of credit is $1,000 a month of service, it's like $2,000, having earned because you have to pay personal tax on the money that you're going to use to service your line of credit. So, that's a really big hit. That's like working, you know, a whole long, busy clinic day, at a minimum, just to service that line of credit without even paying down the balance, right? So people are starting to feel the pinch of interest rates. But let's go back a little ways. And just talk me about what it is some of the issues that you see in you know, people that are now going through residency, although there's a little bit of income coming in, but there's a little bit of tax planning that has to start to begin. And also like in those early years of practice? Christian Wigmore 07:40Yeah. It actually reminds me of, I spoke with, I think it was the residence of doctors of BC when I think one of their whether it's the president or not, he showed me a presentation, at one point about the debt levels that residents have, when they start residency, this might just be BC specific, and when they end. And my thought had always been well, it would go down, right, like they finally started. Like you should be able to kind of work it down a little bit. 50% of it goes up, but of the students, 50% of residents will have more debt when they finish residency. And so things that mean, you have always talked about, but like, let's think it's got to be something rather than actually needing the fancy car or needing something. It's a mindset, potentially that's causing people to do this. Now, we always have to, like put in disclaimers, there's family circumstances, things that are out of–Dr. Kevin Mailo 08:33Yeah, I mean, when you're like in my household, when we were both going through medical school, we paid the nanny more than I made. Because we were both working like 80 hours a week and we had young kids and she was hitting overtime by Wednesday afternoons. So, yeah, you're right there, family circumstances, totally. And personal circumstances. Christian Wigmore 08:51There's potentially a mindset, right? And I have this funny little line that I heard from a physician at one point, and it goes, “If you spend like as a doctor, when you're a student, you'll live like a student when you're a doctor.” And that one hit me right away, right? Because it's that thought that if you blow up the line of credit through medical school, and you finally get into practice, and you think that pearly white income that you'll eventually earn will pay it all off, you start to realize that all that spending you did as a student, basically wrecks any of the beauty of having a higher income, I guess, as a doctor, eventually. Dr. Kevin Mailo 09:26And there's a huge tax penalty now, right? Like, that's the other reflection I have, you know, in your generation compared to mine, like, I mean, and it was even better years ago. But, you know, I graduated like 15 some years ago, it have been 10 years in practice. So, what am I, totally getting my numbers wrong. It'd been 10 years in practice, but like I was, you know, at a place where like, we could pay down the line of credit relatively easy with income splitting through the PC, and dividends to spouse. Personal Tax rates were lower and now it's different. And the cost of living has gone up, right? So, your base cost for food, clothing, shelter, transportation has gone up. So, there's less and less margin to pay off personal debt, right? Between taxes and the cost of living. And you're right, it's so critical to get this right in the early years of practice. Christian Wigmore 10:20Yeah, and I feel like what we're talking about here is just it's like, it's personal financial management. Like we're, there's kind of like, there's personal finance, and there's like your corporation management, all that fun, financial things that like we could all learn as doctors, but it's the personal side, the personal financial management that's so important. That could begin right as they get into medical school as they go through medical school, into residency, and then into practice. That is honestly the saving grace that appears like these days to save you from some of the hardships of feeling like you have to go to clinic every single day, or work that extra call shifts to pay for all the luxuries that have kind of built up over time, right? And so that's what I think of as like the end game in a sense when I see myself and I see the students around me of thinking about what do the decisions that we make right now as students and kind of the habits in a sense too that we make right now as students and the expectations that we make about what it'll be like when we start to make money. How that will actually impact our career, and how we can still be as healthy as possible as doctors in not only our lives as physicians serving our patients, but also in our financial lives, right? Dr. Kevin Mailo 11:35I couldn't agree more and it's so important to get that alignment right. Between what are your career goals and your personal goals, right? Because if you say, you know, I want to be healthy, I don't want to work in excessive number of hours, I want to minimize the number of call or night shifts I'm doing or whatever, or clinic days I'm doing in a month. Well, you have to have financial goals that align with that. Because if you don't, well, you know, I mean, your mortgage company doesn't care. You know, what, how many hours you want to work in a week that mortgage comes due every month, right, or the grocery bill or whatever else you're facing. And so it's again, it's being holistic in our lives, and looking across and seeing Okay, well, what do I really want? And then what financial decisions am I making that align with it? Especially the big ones, right, like mortgage and those kinds of things, like the big permanent purchases. Christian Wigmore 12:30Yep. Yeah. It's interesting and I think it like it ties in to, you know, we are offered this $350,000, when we've never had money before, there's like that aspect of like, quickly, your life-changing in the financial world. But then I assume, you know, I'm still like, early in the game, but I assume the moment I start making an income that is substantial enough, the bank's gonna come to me and say, Hey, here's this fancy mortgage, you can have it and but this million dollar house, and they make you feel like you can afford it. Because, in a sense, if you're willing to sell your life, you can, right? And it's those trip falls are like the traps that I think are just so important to be educated on as we're going through, to be aware and know the implications, right? Dr. Kevin Mailo 13:13And this is also another thing that we teach us at the conference. And I alluded to this, you know, when you were there as well Christian, is the notion of an hourly rate. Every one of us has an hourly rate, what we're worth per hour what we can bill. Remember that there's a tax penalty associated with that, right? So, if you're, you know, if you're billing $300 an hour, your after-tax income on that is actually going to be substantially less. So, when you say, how many 1000s of dollars do I have to pay on a mortgage every month and property taxes, and utilities, and maintenance, and repairs, and vehicle payments? Well, now you can actually calculate and, you know, I'm happy to show anyone that's interested, how many hours in a month you're gonna have to work just to maintain those big expenditures, right? And then how many hours are left for fun? And the bigger one is, how many hours are left to save for retirement? Which again, the sooner we start, the sooner we are better off. But if we if you know, we're struggling for 5 or 10 years to pay off a line of credit, then we've already really short in the compound growth curve, which is so vitally important not to do. Christian Wigmore 14:25Yeah, and something that like, is underrated and not maybe spoken about as much is student loans nowadays, like the government has announced that they're not charging interest on those. So, we already have it easier than the previous like, the generations before us, right? Like my student loans right now, if things don't change, I don't pay interest on it ever. Like I just have to make the minimum payment and it doesn't go up over time. Like that is a huge advantage. Dr. Kevin Mailo 14:50That's a good deal. Christian Wigmore 14:51I know, yeah, pretty sweet. Yeah, almost say thanks to the guys over the line that did it first and then Canada felt like they had to follow suit, but like, yeah, the only interest-bearing debt that we're going to have coming out of is the line of credit. And you have to jump into that a little bit to pay tuition, the student loans never cover it fully. But it is still a variable cost in my mind of kind of your lifestyle and things like that, that really push that number up. Dr. Kevin Mailo 15:18It totally. And I mean, I'm sympathetic to it as well. I mean, you know, when you consider, you know, broader, you know, sort of North American or Canadian society, there are very few people that are forced to delay gratification the way doctors are. Like, some of us go a decade or longer in school. In fact, it's actually much longer some of us regularly go like 15 years from undergrad to practice. Like that is a very long road, right? And it's natural to want the nice things in life. Right? You actually do deserve them, right? The message here isn't, you know, that you've got to live this extremely austere existence, that it's craft dinner and ramen noodles every night. No, it's, there's just got to be some balance, right? Because there's a very real cost to that lifestyle creep and remembering that if we're 10 years behind the average adult in entering, practicing and earning in our prime, it's also 10 years that we've lost on the compound growth curve. Again, it's another big impact. Christian Wigmore 16:25Yeah, I've used the example sometimes with students, as we kind of talked about our debt of what would it look like if you just became a red seal electrician right off the bat, and you saved 15% of your income over time? The amount of time it would take us as physicians, who are thought to have made/make so much more money than a red seal electrician to catch up to that person is incredible. I don't know the math in my mind, I'm not that much of a whiz. But like, it would take so long to catch up to that person for the compounding that they would achieve over those years that we're studying. Yeah. It blows my mind sometimes. But that just only solidifies the point of just good, sound, basic financial knowledge, just for basic, like, you know, your own finances, things like that. Dr. Kevin Mailo 17:10And the other reflection is, you know, again, another observation about younger generations coming through, they don't want to work the 70-80 hour workweeks that older generations of physicians have worked. And I actually think that's a wonderful thing. I think that's an example to the entire profession, that we should all be working fewer hours. The job is stressful, we deal in people's lives, and more should be spread, more duty should be spread across a larger group of physicians. Absolutely, right? It shouldn't be two rural physicians holding up a town, you know, in a remote part of Canada. It should be four, do you know what I mean? And this applies everywhere across our healthcare system. But again, if we're going to cut back those hours, our finances have to align with that broader goal. And so it's about like being mindful and intentional. And reflecting on what do we really want our ideal work week to look like? Because yours was actually very interesting. I really liked yours. You don't have to share it. But it was great. It was really balanced. Christian Wigmore 18:14Yeah, I'm happy to share like my dream in the future. Like, I think, first and foremost, for myself, like this is getting a little bit more personal into how I feel. I'm like a family man first. I've always been that way. Like, my dream is to be able to go to my daughter's soccer–Dr. Kevin Mailo 18:27I love it. Trust me, do it all. Christian Wigmore 18:29–basketball game. Like that's–Dr. Kevin Mailo 18:27That's wonderful. Don't miss any of those moments. Sorry, I'm going on and on. Christian Wigmore 18:34–I want to be able to drive my son and his buddies to the basketball game and hear them get hyped up to some Eminem or something on the way to the game. Like I want to be there for those moments, right? And so I think like, if I could work clinic two-three days a week, and then have two or three days a week that are more flexible, that they could be, you know, those moments with my kids, or be moments where I'm getting to pursue Budget Your MD and kind of push those things forward.Dr. Kevin Mailo 18:58A passion.Christian Wigmore 19:00Yeah, exactly. That gives me the balance, right? That allows me to really be the doctor, I want to be on those two to three days. And then be the dad I want to be hopefully, be the husband I want to be, and then still kind of use that other part of my brain that sometimes has to be shut off at times. Right? Dr. Kevin Mailo 19:15I absolutely love it. What an inspiring message. So okay, let's tell us a little bit more about Budget MD. We touched on and then we went on on all these tangents. Tell me a little bit more like what what do you do right now with it?Christian Wigmore 19:31So, the thing that I would say we provide or I provide the most value on is something I call the debt projection tool and I know of honestly centers around everything we talked about today. And I made it originally for myself, I was just interested, okay, if I have this much debt currently, and say I want to go into family practice, which is what I want to go into, or what if I want to do internal med or ER. What would those differing incomes look like in terms of eventually being able to pay off my line of credits, my student loans? Like how long would it take me to get to financial independence and if I want to save a little bit along the way? And so I took some Excel courses through my business degree and know three or four formulas. So, it's not the cleanest Excel spreadsheet in the world, but it works. And what I allow myself to do is to plug in, okay, this is my age, this is the specialty I might think of doing. And I even have like the house I may want to buy it some age, the interest rate that approximately it could be at at that time, and the downpayment, I could approximately have, and I even have in there, how many kids I would want to have. I just do an average, I think it's like just under $14,000 a year for a kid from the age of like, zero to 18. I've never been a parent before, so, I have no idea. That's what I found on the internet, right? So, maybe it skews a little bit more expensive into the later years as you're paying for universities and stuff if that's something you want to do versus the beginning. But you can correct me if I'm wrong there. But basically, the goal of this tool is to help what I find to be two groups of students. And this is what I get passionate about, there's students that are, A. super worried about their finances, like I've met a few that like, I have so much debt, I'm never gonna be able to pay it off. Dr. Kevin Mailo 21:09That was me. Christian Wigmore 21:10It's hurting their ability to learn. And I'm like, you're gonna be fine. Like, you actually need to be told that, like you're doing a great job, and like be able to move on with just learning and know that things are going to be okay, that's one group. And then the other group is the, oh, I'm going to be a doctor one day, it's completely fine. Yeah, I do DoorDash every single night because like, you know, we'll make a good income at some point and pay it off. And so it's those two groups that fill up this debt projection that I have, and kind of give their example scenarios. And I can show them well, okay, person A, that's worried about their life, you're going to be okay. You're like this is kind of your projection, approximately, like none of this is exact, but it gives them an idea that the debt will eventually get paid off and kind of eases some of their worries. Group two sees on their projection that with their current debt and spending, the curve only just continues to go up, it's almost like, you're not going to be able to pay all this off. And coincidentally, they're the people that say they want to buy a $3 million house, and then that mortgage payment really causes the curve to continue up as well. But it, my goal with that is to just start the conversation, right, is to get that part of there, get the light switch moment to go and realize that, okay, the current habits and mindset I have, are maybe a little bit off from what I need to currently be doing to make sure I'm setting myself up to succeed, not only as a physician, but in my own independent financial life. Dr. Kevin Mailo 22:39I love it. Christian Wigmore 22:40So, that's my big like, that's the one I really have fun with because I kind of like Excel, and they send over the projection, I do it completely for free, and I send it to them. And then I offer them 30 minutes to chat about it too if they want to. And so, that's been super fun. It's kind of an extra thing I'll do in the mornings or the evenings, I'll fill those out for people. It's not AI-generated at all, at this point. So, I'm still collecting some things together on my own computer, but I'm one of those rare breeds that likes to see an Excel spreadsheet. So Dr. Kevin Mailo 23:10Yeah, I love it. So, where do you want to go with it? Right? Because obviously, we're gonna hear more about it. You're in the early stages. Where do you want to go with it? Like, what's your dream, in terms of the profession? Christian Wigmore 23:22Yeah. So, my dream, in terms of the profession would be to like, almost not solve but help in the world of, you're gonna get my mind going too fast here, Kevin, when you ask me what my dreams for this thing like, it's so like–Dr. Kevin Mailo 23:41No, no. Like, I just did a podcast episode on dreams. It'll come out before this one. I'm a very big believer in being open about our dreams. So, talk about your scope. Christian Wigmore 23:55So, like a broad dream would be to change the way that financial education is brought into the medical programs across Canada. Like let's start Canada first, we don't need to go worldwide. I don't need to dream that big. Like if we could somehow incorporate financial education into the undergraduate medical degree, and whether that just be evenings or a lunchtime money talk or something to not only help students become aware of the pitfalls as they transition into residency and practice. But also just to be aware of kind of the habits that we've been speaking to a lot over the past, I don't know how long we've been–Dr. Kevin Mailo 24:37I love it. Yeah.Christian Wigmore 24:40So I mean, that's the number one goal, right? And then after that, like, I hope that that could evolve into like a better community in medicine that is willing and I think Physician Empowerments already absolutely spearheading this, but a community where doctors feel more safe to talk about this stuff, right? Like, it's rare, like as a student, have I ever had a preceptor bring up, you know, billing or how they're like clinic rents and stuff like that? No, I haven't. And if there could be a community where students can ask about this stuff, where people further down the line can give advice about these are the some of the mistakes I made as a student. And that doesn't have to be like physician to student that can be, you know, 20 years experience position to first five years practicing physician, just the space like that would be awesome. Just to provide that advice and care almost for the future generation of physicians. And I think in general, the dream, like, macro of all of that, is that that could then some, in some way help aid like the issues that we see in medicine as a whole right now, like the burnout issues, like that's the big word. Dr. Kevin Mailo 25:48Oh, without question. Christian Wigmore 25:50And I think me and you align on this that, like if personal finance, can be focused on more and physicians understand how that binds them, I think we can, hopefully, turn the dial a little down on the burnout rates. And that's the goal, right? Like, that's the hot word these days. And in medicine, practicing physicians is burnout, right? Dr. Kevin Mailo 26:10Yeah, I'll just go on, I'll go climb on my, you know, pedestal on this one and go. I teach wellness, right, that's one of the things we teach at Physician Empowerment, and I've done CME events for it. And I'm going to be blunt. I mean, you can do all of the mandated wellness modules online, that the system tells you to do. You can do yoga, you can journal, you can meditate, I do all of those things, you can do all of that. But if you are unhealthy, working 70 hours a week, no amount of extra stuff you do is going to make that better. If you're healthy number of hours a week is 40, then you just have to come down, the only way to come down is to be financially secure. Financial Security underpins all wellness, in our profession, in my opinion. The other big one, and we sort of touched on this before we started recording, was leadership. When we want to transform the system and make it better for our patients, better for us, better for our allied health colleagues, we need to be involved. We need to be able to sit on those committees, we need to advocate, we need to be a voice, we need to be present, truly present. That will only happen when we're cutting down on 70-hour work weeks, and we have a little bit more balance to get involved. Again, truly believe that and again, that is underpinned by financial security. Christian Wigmore 27:37Yeah, and, you know, it almost feels odd as a student right now talking to a physician who's current practicing to like speak about this financial stuff, because it almost feels weird, to be honest. Like we're doctors. And I think at the conference, Wing spoke about this, about where there's this altruistic mindset that's kind of ingrained in us that we're supposed to just work like crazy and not think about the finances, because we're serving, and I 100%, like, have that heart to serve. But I think it's gotten to a point these days where like, you have to start to think about that weird financial pit in your stomach because it has all these implications we've been speaking to, right? Dr. Kevin Mailo 28:16You will do your best care when you are not burnt out, when you are not exhausted, and when you're not overbooked and worrying about the overhead. That is what your patients deserve. A rested physician who is in control of her/his schedule, that's what's so powerful. And that's what will lead to better patient care. So, to serve, it means to serve ourselves first or to be to be our healthiest first is in my opinion. Christian Wigmore 28:42Yeah. And like, honestly, Kevin, I appreciate you saying all that. Because I think that some of the mindsets I've come to I would never be able to come to just as a fourth-year medical student, you know, learning–Dr. Kevin Mailo 28:54It's hard to talk. Christian Wigmore 28:55Yeah, it is. And like, No, there's no medical student out there that's thinking about these things. We only hear of it from people like you and Wing and all these other physicians that are starting to talk about this stuff that we can begin to create some of these ideas of important topics and frameworks that it will matter later down the road. But what's so awesome about this conversation is that hearing them then allows you to have the advantage of applying them early. I think that's the key that I get excited about. Because talking about them, you know 10 years into practice is awesome and super important, has a role but there's such an advantage to thinking about it or like–Dr. Kevin Mailo 29:32I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. Christian Wigmore 29:35Because you're making lifetime decisions. Even the specialty you go into like that's bigger than the house you end up buying, the house you end up buying it's high up there too, but the specialty end up choosing, like think about this stuff like it. That's your life like you're signing, we're all in medicine to–Dr. Kevin Mailo 29:50It's very hard to retrain.Christian Wigmore 29:51Think about your life to go do that, like be ready. You know what I mean? Dr. Kevin Mailo 29:52Very hard to retrain. I'm envious of our nursing colleagues who are able to cycle through different aspects of nursing over the course of their career in health care. Because we really struggle with that in medicine, it's very hard to retrain, and understandably so I mean that there has to be a lot of technical proficiency. So, I thought this is absolutely amazing. I would encourage listeners to check out Budget Your MD. I know more is coming from you, Christian. That's why we want to bring you on the show because this is going to be a lot more than just medical students and residents, right? I think all of us should be going through this exercise. So, get building those spreadsheets, no I'm just bugging you. No, we look forward to the other offerings that are coming. And you do so much education as well. I know over Instagram and other other places. So, I again, encourage people to check it out because it's the what you teach is so true. And it's been great connecting, and great having you on the show. So, we'll we'll definitely have you on again. Christian Wigmore 30:49I appreciate your mentorship. Thanks for having me on. It's been so good to chat about some of these things. Dr. Kevin Mailo 30:54Wonderful. Dr. Kevin Mailo  30:56Thank you so much for listening to the Physician Empowerment podcast. If you're ready to take those next steps in transforming your practice, finances, or personal well-being, then come and join us at PhysEmpowerment.ca - P H Y S Empowerment dot ca - to learn more about how we can help. If today's episode resonated with you, I'd really appreciate it if you would share our podcast with a colleague or friend and head over to Apple Podcasts to give us a five-star rating and review. If you've got feedback, questions or suggestions for future episode topics, we'd love to hear from you. If you want to join us and be interviewed and share some of your story, we'd absolutely love that as well. Please send me an email at KMailo@PhysEmpowerment.ca. Thank you again for listening. Bye.

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________Opening Words:“Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.”Psalm 19:14 (ESV) Confession:Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God. Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen. Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in eternal life. Amen. The InvitatoryLord, open our lips.And our mouth shall proclaim your praise.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Venite (Psalm 95:1-7)Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. Come, let us sing to the Lord; * let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving * and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.For the Lord is a great God, * and a great King above all gods.In his hand are the caverns of the earth, * and the heights of the hills are his also.The sea is his, for he made it, * and his hands have molded the dry land.Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice! Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. The PsalterPsalm 69Salvum me fac1Save me, O God, *for the waters have risen up to my neck.2I am sinking in deep mire, *and there is no firm ground for my feet.3I have come into deep waters, *and the torrent washes over me.4I have grown weary with my crying;my throat is inflamed; *my eyes have failed from looking for my God.5Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head;my lying foes who would destroy me are mighty. *Must I then give back what I never stole?6O God, you know my foolishness, *and my faults are not hidden from you.7Let not those who hope in you be put to shame through me, Lord God of hosts; *let not those who seek you be disgraced because of me, O God of Israel.8Surely, for your sake have I suffered reproach, *and shame has covered my face.9I have become a stranger to my own kindred, *an alien to my mother's children.10Zeal for your house has eaten me up; *the scorn of those who scorn you has fallen upon me.11I humbled myself with fasting, *but that was turned to my reproach.12I put on sack-cloth also, *and became a byword among them.13Those who sit at the gate murmur against me, *and the drunkards make songs about me.14But as for me, this is my prayer to you, *at the time you have set, O Lord:15“In your great mercy, O God, *answer me with your unfailing help.16Save me from the mire; do not let me sink; *let me be rescued from those who hate meand out of the deep waters.17Let not the torrent of waters wash over me,neither let the deep swallow me up; *do not let the Pit shut its mouth upon me.18Answer me, O Lord, for your love is kind; *in your great compassion, turn to me.'19“Hide not your face from your servant; *be swift and answer me, for I am in distress.20Draw near to me and redeem me; *because of my enemies deliver me.21You know my reproach, my shame, and my dishonor; *my adversaries are all in your sight.”22Reproach has broken my heart, and it cannot be healed; *I looked for sympathy, but there was none,for comforters, but I could find no one.23They gave me gall to eat, *and when I was thirsty, they gave me vinegar to drink.31As for me, I am afflicted and in pain; *your help, O God, will lift me up on high.32I will praise the Name of God in song; *I will proclaim his greatness with thanksgiving.33This will please the Lord more than an offering of oxen, *more than bullocks with horns and hoofs.34The afflicted shall see and be glad; *you who seek God, your heart shall live.35For the Lord listens to the needy, *and his prisoners he does not despise.36Let the heavens and the earth praise him, *the seas and all that moves in them;37For God will save Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah; *they shall live there and have it in possession.38The children of his servants will inherit it, *and those who love his Name will dwell therein. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. LessonsEzra 7:27-28English Standard Version27 Blessed be the Lord, the God of our fathers, who put such a thing as this into the heart of the king, to beautify the house of the Lord that is in Jerusalem, 28 and who extended to me his steadfast love before the king and his counselors, and before all the king's mighty officers. I took courage, for the hand of the Lord my God was on me, and I gathered leading men from Israel to go up with me.Ezra 8:21-36English Standard Version21 Then I proclaimed a fast there, at the river Ahava, that we might humble ourselves before our God, to seek from him a safe journey for ourselves, our children, and all our goods. 22 For I was ashamed to ask the king for a band of soldiers and horsemen to protect us against the enemy on our way, since we had told the king, “The hand of our God is for good on all who seek him, and the power of his wrath is against all who forsake him.” 23 So we fasted and implored our God for this, and he listened to our entreaty.24 Then I set apart twelve of the leading priests: Sherebiah, Hashabiah, and ten of their kinsmen with them. 25 And I weighed out to them the silver and the gold and the vessels, the offering for the house of our God that the king and his counselors and his lords and all Israel there present had offered. 26 I weighed out into their hand 650 talents of silver, and silver vessels worth 200 talents, and 100 talents of gold, 27 20 bowls of gold worth 1,000 darics, and two vessels of fine bright bronze as precious as gold. 28 And I said to them, “You are holy to the Lord, and the vessels are holy, and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering to the Lord, the God of your fathers. 29 Guard them and keep them until you weigh them before the chief priests and the Levites and the heads of fathers' houses in Israel at Jerusalem, within the chambers of the house of the Lord.” 30 So the priests and the Levites took over the weight of the silver and the gold and the vessels, to bring them to Jerusalem, to the house of our God.31 Then we departed from the river Ahava on the twelfth day of the first month, to go to Jerusalem. The hand of our God was on us, and he delivered us from the hand of the enemy and from ambushes by the way. 32 We came to Jerusalem, and there we remained three days. 33 On the fourth day, within the house of our God, the silver and the gold and the vessels were weighed into the hands of Meremoth the priest, son of Uriah, and with him was Eleazar the son of Phinehas, and with them were the Levites, Jozabad the son of Jeshua and Noadiah the son of Binnui. 34 The whole was counted and weighed, and the weight of everything was recorded.35 At that time those who had come from captivity, the returned exiles, offered burnt offerings to the God of Israel, twelve bulls for all Israel, ninety-six rams, seventy-seven lambs, and as a sin offering twelve male goats. All this was a burnt offering to the Lord. 36 They also delivered the king's commissions to the king's satraps and to the governors of the province Beyond the River, and they aided the people and the house of God.Revelation 15English Standard Version15 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.2 And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire—and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. 3 And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,“Great and amazing are your deeds,    O Lord God the Almighty!Just and true are your ways,    O King of the nations!4 Who will not fear, O Lord,    and glorify your name?For you alone are holy.    All nations will come    and worship you,for your righteous acts have been revealed.”5 After this I looked, and the sanctuary of the tent of witness in heaven was opened, 6 and out of the sanctuary came the seven angels with the seven plagues, clothed in pure, bright linen, with golden sashes around their chests. 7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever, 8 and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished. The Word of the Lord.Thanks Be To God. Benedictus (The Song of Zechariah)Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; * he has come to his people and set them free.He has raised up for us a mighty savior, * born of the house of his servant David.Through his holy prophets he promised of old, that he would save us from our enemies, * from the hands of all who hate us. He promised to show mercy to our fathers * and to remember his holy covenant. This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham, * to set us free from the hands of our enemies, Free to worship him without fear, * holy and righteous in his sight all the days of our life.You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High, * for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way, To give his people knowledge of salvation * by the forgiveness of their sins.In the tender compassion of our God * the dawn from on high shall break upon us, To shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death, * and to guide our feet into the way of peace.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The Apostles CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersLord, have mercy.Christ, have mercyLord, have mercyOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen. The SuffragesO Lord, show your mercy upon us;And grant us your salvation.O Lord, guide those who govern usAnd lead us in the way of justice and truth.Clothe your ministers with righteousnessAnd let your people sing with joy.O Lord, save your peopleAnd bless your inheritance.Give peace in our time, O LordAnd defend us by your mighty power.Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgottenNor the hope of the poor be taken away.Create in us clean hearts, O GodAnd take not your Holy Spirit from us. Take a moment of silence at this time to reflect and pray for others. The CollectsProper 26Almighty and merciful God, it is only by your gift that your faithful people offer you true and laudable service: Grant that we may run without stumbling to obtain your heavenly promises; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen. Daily Collects:A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries, through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceO Lord, our heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this day: Defend us by your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin nor run into any danger; and that, guided by your Spirit, we may do what is righteous in your sight; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.Collect of Saint BasilO Christ God, Who art worshipped and glorified at every place and time; Who art long-suffering, most merciful and compassionate; Who lovest the righteous and art merciful to sinners; Who callest all to salvation with the promise of good things to come: receive, Lord, the prayers we now offer, and direct our lives in the way of Thy commandments. Sanctify our souls, cleanse our bodies, correct our thoughts, purify our minds and deliver us from all affliction, evil and illness. Surround us with Thy holy angels, that guarded and instructed by their forces, we may reach unity of faith and the understanding of Thine unapproachable glory: for blessed art Thou unto ages of ages. Amen. General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; Through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen. A Prayer of St. John ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time, with one accord to make our common supplications to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will grant their requests: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. DismissalLet us bless the LordThanks be to God!Alleluia, Alleluia! BenedictionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen

00:09Welcome to the imperfect Buddhist, where we discuss mindfulness and incorporating Zen Buddhism into modern life. My name is Matthew Hawk Mahoney and today's episode is titled Buddhism and Love.00:52Thank you for stopping in and listening. Whether this is your first episode or I don't know what episode I'm on, maybe your 50th. I really appreciate you sticking with me and stopping in. It's been a while since I've shared with you. It's amazing how the days blend together. When I'm working from home, it seems like weeks can go by, months. And even the last couple years seems like they've gone by very fast. And I was looking at...01:19episodes and realized, wow, I haven't talked with you in a while, so I wanted to change that.01:26Love and Buddhism. I had a friend recently when we were talking about Buddhism bring up the idea that some Buddhists don't believe in relationships as far as sexual, physical relationships or marriage. I think I've heard that from other people before. When we're talking about love though, we're talking more about the concept of seeing yourself in someone else, seeing unity. I quote,01:55When you love someone, you have to offer the best you have. The best thing we can offer another person is our true presence. Thich Nhat Hanh. It's being present with somebody, seeking to understand, and eventually even seeing your true identity, which is the presence that witnesses, realizing that's in that other person. You recognize your oneness. Please know that I'm not there yet. This is the imperfect Buddhist. I didn't say I'm completely at this place yet.02:24But I have had visions or insight moments where I've felt that connectedness, oneness, and had moved from my head of thinking about this concept of oneness and actually experiencing it.02:51Love and our culture. How does this topic or concept of love relate to our culture? Love is a word often used in titles for Netflix shows, like Love is Blind. It's used a lot in songs, song lyrics. People say, hey, I love ice cream or I love pizza. I think a lot of people don't have a very deep definition of what love means.03:20We have a culture around love, which is this commercialized version. We have sayings about love, love your neighbor, or I love that pizza, but what does this really mean?03:32I've been married for almost... Oh my God, don't tell my wife I'm forgetting our anniversary, but I wanna say we've been married for six or seven years. At the time when we were dating, I was reading this book called The Road Less Traveled. It had a pretty profound impact on my life and the way that I look at reality. When I met Amanda, we both read that book together, and it has a really great definition of love. And so I'm gonna read that for you. M. Scott Peck, the author, defines love as...04:00The will to extend oneself for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth. Actually, that was my first real definition of love. It gave new meaning to the word love. Before that, love was something that was thrown around in songs or in pop culture or something you'd say in a sentence, but it didn't really have any real meaning.04:30My own journey with the concept of love has been evolving quite a bit lately. I recently started the book A Course in Miracles, which is definitely not in Zen or Buddhist tradition, but it has a lot of powerful things to say about love, about human experience and what it means to be connected with other people. The author claims that they...04:58channeled this work and it seems to be written from the viewpoint of Jesus. I know that is enough to make most people's eyes roll and typically would make my eyes roll, but I gave it a try because somebody that I really respect in the mindfulness teachings mentioned it and said this is a really powerful book and make up your own mind. So I did and I have gotten a lot out of it, especially around the concept of love and action in05:26love's role in life. Through reading it I am starting to recognize love as an experience and a phenomenon rather than just a thought or an action. That there is this energy of love that we can experience. We can also be the transmitter of love. This is all sounding new agey but all that means is that we choose loving action. We choose to see people as ourselves and treat them accordingly.05:56quote from A Course in Miracles, teach only love for that is what you are.06:04The idea in A Course in Miracles is that there is only love, everything else is an illusion and a fiction created in the minds of men and women and that awakening is coming home to that reality that there is only love. In Buddhist texts, the Dhammapada says, hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love. This is the eternal rule.06:49I want to talk a little bit about the reality of applying some of these concepts in my own life. A lot of my practice comes up in work. That makes sense, right? I spend a lot of my time other than sleeping or at home at work. There's a person that, personality-wise, I actually, I don't really have much of a problem with them, but it seems that they really are not a fan of me. From the beginning, I remember my second day at this job. It's a remote job, but I had flown in to the location and had...07:18Just met everybody and I think it was like day two and I remember walking into the shared office space with a team and this person gave me this very, kind of like they're looking right through me, glaring. As time went on it became very apparent that this person just didn't like me, eventually resulting in me talking with my boss and saying, hey, do you think this person has it out for me? And he said, yeah, they do. It's not me projecting anymore. It's very obvious that this person doesn't like me.07:49I've had different reactions to this. There's been times where I felt very defensive. My boss would bring up to me something that this person had come to them with telling on me or finding a reason to point out a mistake that I made. I've did the defensive thing where I got brought up and I started going into being defensive and trying to point out this person's flaws and all that. Coming at it like this didn't feel good. At the end of the day, after08:14Going through the dramas of complaining to other people, feeling offended, or maybe even in some ways trying to suck up or be nicer to this person that doesn't like me. Trying to like, maybe influence this opinion they have of me. It just didn't feel good. It didn't feel right. Reading A Course in Miracles, it was starting to influence me to start to look at other people in a new way, including this person, from the perspective of, okay, I've made the mistake also where I just decided somebody was bad or negative, never even speaking to them.08:45So after spinning my wheels with all of the traditional routes, complaining, trying to coerce the situation, I started applying this idea of... I guess put it the simple way, treating other people the way I want to be treated. I would hope in a situation where I was misguided in my assumptions about someone, or projecting a lot on somebody else, I would hope that they would be able and willing to forgive me and to recognize the pain that I was in.09:14It's changed the dynamic between us, not necessarily that it's changed this person's mind about me, but it's changed the dynamic within myself where it really doesn't bother me much anymore. I'm doing what I can, doing my best, trying to treat the people around me with love, including this person.09:33Going back to that concept of acting for my own or another person's own spiritual growth in that moment where this person is projecting onto me or treating me unfairly, what is the best thing for my own and this other person's spiritual growth?09:49Not really being that offended or hurt by the projections that this person is pushing out because that would only strengthen the illusion in themselves and myself. I get offended or I start to want to change a course, the situation, it's strengthening that illusion, which has no reality.10:15Another breakthrough that's come from this embracing of love as a guide for my actions and thoughts is jealousy, especially in romantic relationships.10:30It started all the way back to when I was like really a little kid. I remember being worried that my mom or my dad were going to cheat on each other. I'd ask them, are you cheating on dad or are you cheating on mom? And then as the years went by, my parents got a divorce and I remember being jealous of my mom's time when she got remarried. I suddenly just felt like I wasn't getting the same attention. Got into my first relationship, one of those little teenage fights where you break up for a weekend.10:58And during one of these weekend breakups, she went on a date with another guy, ended up making out with him, who knows what happened. I'm questioning her for months about what really happened. It got ingrained at a young age, these patterns of jealousy, suspicion, and fear. In my marriage now, there are moments where I start to go down that path of imagining my wife doing something behind my back or going out with somebody or saying that she's...11:24going to the Goodwill to go shopping for used clothes or whatever, but really she's out with this guy.11:32I had a realization recently where I was like, okay, what is loving in this moment? So say my wife was in a situation where she really decided to do that. What kind of pain would she have to be in or confusion or illusion or whatever you want to call it? She'd have to be in a very dark, hurt place to be taking such actions. This consideration shifted things for me where suddenly I wasn't afraid, but I was feeling compassion.12:01It was a shift from fear into love and trying to see things through other people's eyes, but also seeing other people as myself.12:11It was a game changing shift. I still have those moments where I get fearful or I start to go down the questioning path about things, but it definitely feels like it's shifting the dynamic. It also helps when you have a partner that is loving and seeking my own and her own spiritual growth. There is moments where she might get a little bit angry, but overall she's like, you're in pain. You're really fearful and anxious right now because you're going down that path. Let me help you. Let me.12:39help walk you through this and show you that I love you and that we'll get through this together.12:54Welcome to the quick tip portion of the episode. We're going to talk a little bit about meta practice. I'm going to tell you a brief overview of how to do a meta practice or meta meditation. But I also wanted to let you know that there is a guided meta meditation available at my website, theimperfectbuddhist.com. The general guidelines for meta meditation.13:21You want to find a comfortable place to sit where you're not going to be interrupted and that you can have some privacy and you can feel comfortable. Not worry about someone walking in on you or looking at you weird. It's all about you connecting with your own body and breath and your heart in this moment.13:39You're going to find that place, take a couple deep breaths and relax. Focus on the area of your heart, along with the sensation of your breathing. You're going to begin by directing loving kindness to yourself. So you can repeat phrases in your own mind or out loud. If you have the privacy, such as, may I be happy? May I be well? May I be safe? May I be peaceful and at ease? And you're going to let.14:06Those feelings of warmth and love grow as you're saying that. You're cultivating this love inside to yourself, which, you know, can be complicated for some people. After you've gotten the love flowing, you're going to bring to mind someone who has cared for you deeply. Maybe it's like a mom, friend, sibling, partner. You're going to use the same phrases. May I be happy. May I be well. May I be safe. May I be peaceful and at ease.14:36It will allow those feelings of warmth and love to grow.14:41sinking into that heartfelt meaning and connecting with those loving feelings that arise. You're going to continue the meditation by gradually extending loving kindness, meditation to other people in your life. Eventually, you're going to extend this loving kindness to somebody you have difficulty with. So in my situation, it would be this co-worker that has it out for me, quote, unquote. And as you practice, you're going to encounter different feelings. Some people experience anger, grief, sadness.15:10These are all signs of your heart opening up. These are things that you're holding on to. When these things, emotions like clouds in the sky, you're not boxing them in. You're just simply watching them as they pass by. As they start to fade away, you can return back to your loving kindness meditation. With all meditation practices, there's no need to judge yourself.15:34The benefits of loving kindness is it cultivates compassion, love, and connection both towards ourselves and other people in our lives. It's a transformative practice that can bring peace and well-being into our lives.15:50Thanks for stopping in, I look forward to talking to you next week. Alright, bye bye.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-imperfect-buddhist/donations

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________Opening Words:“Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.”Psalm 19:14 (ESV) Confession:Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God. Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen. Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in eternal life. Amen. The InvitatoryLord, open our lips.And our mouth shall proclaim your praise.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Venite (Psalm 95:1-7)Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. Come, let us sing to the Lord; * let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving * and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.For the Lord is a great God, * and a great King above all gods.In his hand are the caverns of the earth, * and the heights of the hills are his also.The sea is his, for he made it, * and his hands have molded the dry land.Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice! Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. The PsalterPsalm 69Salvum me fac1Save me, O God, *for the waters have risen up to my neck.2I am sinking in deep mire, *and there is no firm ground for my feet.3I have come into deep waters, *and the torrent washes over me.4I have grown weary with my crying;my throat is inflamed; *my eyes have failed from looking for my God.5Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head;my lying foes who would destroy me are mighty. *Must I then give back what I never stole?6O God, you know my foolishness, *and my faults are not hidden from you.7Let not those who hope in you be put to shame through me, Lord God of hosts; *let not those who seek you be disgraced because of me, O God of Israel.8Surely, for your sake have I suffered reproach, *and shame has covered my face.9I have become a stranger to my own kindred, *an alien to my mother's children.10Zeal for your house has eaten me up; *the scorn of those who scorn you has fallen upon me.11I humbled myself with fasting, *but that was turned to my reproach.12I put on sack-cloth also, *and became a byword among them.13Those who sit at the gate murmur against me, *and the drunkards make songs about me.14But as for me, this is my prayer to you, *at the time you have set, O Lord:15“In your great mercy, O God, *answer me with your unfailing help.16Save me from the mire; do not let me sink; *let me be rescued from those who hate meand out of the deep waters.17Let not the torrent of waters wash over me,neither let the deep swallow me up; *do not let the Pit shut its mouth upon me.18Answer me, O Lord, for your love is kind; *in your great compassion, turn to me.'19“Hide not your face from your servant; *be swift and answer me, for I am in distress.20Draw near to me and redeem me; *because of my enemies deliver me.21You know my reproach, my shame, and my dishonor; *my adversaries are all in your sight.”22Reproach has broken my heart, and it cannot be healed; *I looked for sympathy, but there was none,for comforters, but I could find no one.23They gave me gall to eat, *and when I was thirsty, they gave me vinegar to drink.31As for me, I am afflicted and in pain; *your help, O God, will lift me up on high.32I will praise the Name of God in song; *I will proclaim his greatness with thanksgiving.33This will please the Lord more than an offering of oxen, *more than bullocks with horns and hoofs.34The afflicted shall see and be glad; *you who seek God, your heart shall live.35For the Lord listens to the needy, *and his prisoners he does not despise.36Let the heavens and the earth praise him, *the seas and all that moves in them;37For God will save Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah; *they shall live there and have it in possession.38The children of his servants will inherit it, *and those who love his Name will dwell therein. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Lessons2 Kings 1:2-17English Standard Version2 Now Ahaziah fell through the lattice in his upper chamber in Samaria, and lay sick; so he sent messengers, telling them, “Go, inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron, whether I shall recover from this sickness.” 3 But the angel of the Lord said to Elijah the Tishbite, “Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria, and say to them, ‘Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going to inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron? 4 Now therefore thus says the Lord, You shall not come down from the bed to which you have gone up, but you shall surely die.'” So Elijah went.5 The messengers returned to the king, and he said to them, “Why have you returned?” 6 And they said to him, “There came a man to meet us, and said to us, ‘Go back to the king who sent you, and say to him, Thus says the Lord, Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are sending to inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron? Therefore you shall not come down from the bed to which you have gone up, but you shall surely die.'” 7 He said to them, “What kind of man was he who came to meet you and told you these things?” 8 They answered him, “He wore a garment of hair, with a belt of leather about his waist.” And he said, “It is Elijah the Tishbite.”9 Then the king sent to him a captain of fifty men with his fifty. He went up to Elijah, who was sitting on the top of a hill, and said to him, “O man of God, the king says, ‘Come down.'” 10 But Elijah answered the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.11 Again the king sent to him another captain of fifty men with his fifty. And he answered and said to him, “O man of God, this is the king's order, ‘Come down quickly!'” 12 But Elijah answered them, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.13 Again the king sent the captain of a third fifty with his fifty. And the third captain of fifty went up and came and fell on his knees before Elijah and entreated him, “O man of God, please let my life, and the life of these fifty servants of yours, be precious in your sight. 14 Behold, fire came down from heaven and consumed the two former captains of fifty men with their fifties, but now let my life be precious in your sight.” 15 Then the angel of the Lord said to Elijah, “Go down with him; do not be afraid of him.” So he arose and went down with him to the king 16 and said to him, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Because you have sent messengers to inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron—is it because there is no God in Israel to inquire of his word?—therefore you shall not come down from the bed to which you have gone up, but you shall surely die.'”17 So he died according to the word of the Lord that Elijah had spoken. Jehoram became king in his place in the second year of Jehoram the son of Jehoshaphat, king of Judah, because Ahaziah had no son.1 Corinthians 3:16-23English Standard Version16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's. The Word of the Lord.Thanks Be To God. Benedictus (The Song of Zechariah)Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; * he has come to his people and set them free.He has raised up for us a mighty savior, * born of the house of his servant David.Through his holy prophets he promised of old, that he would save us from our enemies, * from the hands of all who hate us. He promised to show mercy to our fathers * and to remember his holy covenant. This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham, * to set us free from the hands of our enemies, Free to worship him without fear, * holy and righteous in his sight all the days of our life.You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High, * for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way, To give his people knowledge of salvation * by the forgiveness of their sins.In the tender compassion of our God * the dawn from on high shall break upon us, To shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death, * and to guide our feet into the way of peace.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The Apostles CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersLord, have mercy.Christ, have mercyLord, have mercyOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen. The SuffragesO Lord, show your mercy upon us;And grant us your salvation.O Lord, guide those who govern usAnd lead us in the way of justice and truth.Clothe your ministers with righteousnessAnd let your people sing with joy.O Lord, save your peopleAnd bless your inheritance.Give peace in our time, O LordAnd defend us by your mighty power.Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgottenNor the hope of the poor be taken away.Create in us clean hearts, O GodAnd take not your Holy Spirit from us. Take a moment of silence at this time to reflect and pray for others. The CollectsProper 19O God, because without you we are not able to please you, mercifully grant that your Holy Spirit may in all things direct and rule our hearts; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen. Daily Collects:A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries, through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceO Lord, our heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this day: Defend us by your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin nor run into any danger; and that, guided by your Spirit, we may do what is righteous in your sight; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.Collect of Saint BasilO Christ God, Who art worshipped and glorified at every place and time; Who art long-suffering, most merciful and compassionate; Who lovest the righteous and art merciful to sinners; Who callest all to salvation with the promise of good things to come: receive, Lord, the prayers we now offer, and direct our lives in the way of Thy commandments. Sanctify our souls, cleanse our bodies, correct our thoughts, purify our minds and deliver us from all affliction, evil and illness. Surround us with Thy holy angels, that guarded and instructed by their forces, we may reach unity of faith and the understanding of Thine unapproachable glory: for blessed art Thou unto ages of ages. Amen. General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; Through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen. A Prayer of St. John ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time, with one accord to make our common supplications to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will grant their requests: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. DismissalLet us bless the LordThanks be to God!Alleluia, Alleluia! BenedictionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen

Per a recent Coindesk article https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/09/13/surprisingly-few-us-customers-want-their-bittrex-money-back/:Surprisingly Few U.S. Customers Want Their Bittrex Money BackThe U.S. Secret Service kept millions on the exchange, company lawyers told a bankruptcy court – but other creditors have been strangely reluctant to ask for their funds back....Unofficial Computer-Autogenerated Transcript, to Assist the Hearing Impaired etc.00:00:00Mr. Mosco, welcome. It's good to see you.00:00:11Good to see you too, Your Honor.00:00:14Mr. Shepard Carter, I like the tie. Is that black and orange?00:00:19This is black. No, it's not black and orange. It's dark, dark blue and orange, which are the colors of your alma mater.00:00:26The colors of my alma mater are black and orange. Oh, then it's black and orange.00:00:30Your instincts are excellent. You may proceed. Mr. Mosco, good morning again. Good to see you.00:00:35I should have known that since they were the Tigers. They are the Tigers.00:00:37We are the Tigers.00:00:39Good morning, Your Honor. We sent over to chambers a PowerPoint presentation. I can hand up an extra copy if you'd like.00:00:48I have it. Thank you.00:00:49And thanks for the Court's time today. It may seem like a bit of navel gazing going on here because there's not a controversy,00:00:58but we did want to update the Court from our last presentation, from where we are. All the work is being done behind the scenes that you haven't seen.00:01:07I appreciate that, and certainly no apology is necessary. I'm always happy to take a status report.00:01:14As you just mentioned, I really have limited visibility into most of the cases that I have, and often then it just turns into a very ugly surprise when everything blows up all at once.00:01:25So I'm hoping that's not going to happen here, but I certainly do appreciate the guidance that you're offering.00:01:31Correct, Your Honor. Just to level set and for the record, Patty Tomasko, Quinn Emanuel on behalf of the Dutters, and I'm joined by my colleague, Ken Ennis from the Young Conaway Firm.00:01:43We just wanted to go through where we were. The last presentation that we gave you, we had very low engagement from the customers that we had asked to withdraw their crypto.00:01:54As you know, the Court entered an order allowing the customers to begin withdrawing cryptocurrency and fiat currency as of June 15th is when we reopened the platform after the May 8th petition date.00:02:07So we wanted to go through that. I also want to introduce the Court to, we have a couple of the legal staff from Bittrex, Caleb Barker and David Maria.00:02:21David Maria is the General Counsel of Bittrex and Caleb Barker is the Assistant General Counsel of Bittrex.00:02:29Very good. Welcome, gentlemen.00:02:31Morning, Your Honor. If I get something wrong, which I frequently do, they will correct me and I've invited them to be live so that as we go through this, if I get something wrong, they can say, or if the Court has any questions about what we've done and all of the efforts that have gone into this and where we are with the status of the withdrawals.00:02:50I'm not going to bore the Court with the history, but as you know, we filed the bankruptcy petition on May 8th. The Court entered the customer withdrawal order on June 13th. We reopened the platform on June 15th.00:03:06This is consistent with the main goal of the case, which was to set up a process by which Bittrex USA operations could be wound down, along with the sister company Bittrex Malta, which is a Maltese organization that has been roughly out of operation since late 2018.00:03:30So to that end, if you turn to slide six, you can see our Chapter 11 timeline to where we are today.00:03:38Of course, we have a disclosure statement hearing coming up on the 27th.00:03:44Right.00:03:45And this is sort of to get everybody, you know, oriented correctly as we face that.00:03:51So far, I will say we have gotten only informal comments and nothing momentous with respect to the disclosure statement or the plan. We're getting language, incorporating it. All of that's going to plan.00:04:05Turning to slide eight, as I mentioned, we still have to comply as we're doing customer withdrawals with the various regulatory requirements for the payment.00:04:20KYC and KML stuff.00:04:22The main that I call them, Finson and OFAC.00:04:25Finson is concerned with financial crimes.00:04:29They want to have all the KYC information from the customer.00:04:32So are you really who you say you are?00:04:35And they also want to know that, you know, you're not engaging in some kind of money laundering.00:04:42So that's that's really what they're about.00:04:45OFAC is concerned with persons in foreign countries engaging in financial transactions in the U.S.00:04:54So those two regulatory requirements are built into the algorithms of the platform.00:05:00OK.00:05:03So we also wanted them to update, accept the updated terms of service, which also incorporate these regulatory requirements. And so that process has been underway.00:05:17So in conjunction with that, there was, of course, an increase in activity with the help desk.00:05:24The company engaged overtime help desk assistance.00:05:31And that has continued all the way through August 31st when the help desk was shut down, consistent with the August 31st, 2023, part eight.00:05:47So that help desk activity kind of demonstrates how much the company has been working with the customers.00:05:53There's been forty seven thousand plus customer help desk tickets and a lot.00:06:01And then the other the other interesting thing is there's two factor authentication.00:06:06Obviously, this is dealing with financial assets.00:06:08And so that process of, you know, I know in my law firm to get logged on in the morning, sometimes it takes me 15 minutes as I'm going through all of the steps.00:06:19The same thing happens on this platform. So you have two factor authentication.00:06:23You're going to get a text to your phone and an email.00:06:26And those two things combined give you, you know, the best security, high level confidence that you're dealing with the right person.00:06:37Thirty five thousand nine hundred seventy two customers have withdrawn their like kind assets for a total value of one hundred and forty three point seven six million dollars worth of crypto.00:06:48This is in addition to approximately twenty three million that was withdrawn during the April wind down period immediately before the petition was filed.00:07:00So on slide eleven. We've broken these numbers down.00:07:08By the number of customers remaining and the number of customers that have withdrawn.00:07:20So the value of crypto withdrawn is one hundred and forty three point six point seven six million broken down between Bittrex US of ninety five million and Bittrex Malta of forty eight million.00:07:39OK. So one of the things we wanted to explore was why were we getting such low levels of engagement.00:07:46And so in the beginning and so we broke it down between customers with balances over one hundred dollars and customers with balances under one hundred dollars and of the remaining customers.00:07:58Their balances are under one hundred dollars. That's the number of those is seventy seven percent of the remaining customers have balances under one hundred dollars.00:08:09So we have a combination that you've talked about earlier. We have what may be stale accounts with dated or old or ineffective contact information and then basically relatively modest amounts that nobody's necessarily wondering where my money go.00:08:25Correct your honor. OK. And I will tell you anecdotally I've been monitoring things like the Bittrex Twitter Bittrex Reddit.00:08:33You know the various sites where customers are engaging more frankly and the sentiment is you know I don't want to give you all that information to get to get thirty five dollars correct.00:08:49OK. They really are making a calculated decision. They know about it and we're going to go through the notice process in a bit. But we have also prioritized we took a list of the crypto customers that remained and we put them in in rank order of highest to lowest and we engage with them directly.00:09:11Send them an email not just a group email sent them an email and said hey you've got this much you need to get it off. And so that's where we've seen a lot of success. You know understandably.00:09:21OK. So 11 of the top 50 customers by balance have withdrawn substantially all their assets for a total of eight point seven million of withdrawn balances. Five hundred and seventeen of the seven hundred and one users with a balance over one hundred thousand have withdrawn substantially all of their assets.00:09:44And so that you know prioritizing the large dollar dollar customers has really paid off in terms of getting the crypto off. Most of the remaining accounts are inactive and have been inactive for a year or more.00:09:58Fifty one point two percent have been active in the last two years. Only forty one point one percent of the remaining funds are associated with user accounts that have shown no activity since December 31 of 2019.00:10:15The story with them is most of them signed up with inadequate information.00:10:20OK.00:10:24Also we've been actively engaging with the government on a couple of accounts. Some of the accounts were involved in criminal proceedings criminal forfeiture proceedings and we've cooperated with the U.S. Attorney's Office the Justice Department and the SEC to withdraw those amounts that were subject to those criminal forfeiture proceedings.00:10:45The Secret Service had one of our largest accounts of six point two million dollars.00:10:55We worked with that agency for them to successfully withdraw that amount.00:11:00OK. As I said.00:11:03Notice has been extremely robust. We knew it was going to be a large number of potential creditors. We we did not spare.00:11:16We spent every dollar that was responsibly spent to get notice out.00:11:22But this is in addition to the numerous emails that have gone out to customers throughout the history of the company in particular Bittrex Malta because it shut down operations in 2019.00:11:34It's since you know more than a million emails to its users in October of 2019 advising them that it was shutting down its platform.00:11:46So it was known as Bittrex International at that time and it the company decided it no longer wanted to operate Bittrex International.00:11:56So it started shutting down and moving those accounts over to Bittrex Global.00:12:01So additional notices went out as reflected on this slide and they were notified at the end of 2019.00:12:13The Bittrex International was no longer going to support those accounts.00:12:19So that was over the course of a year. A lot of effort went into getting customers off that platform.00:12:24Sure. Now Bittrex US made the decision to shut down its platform in late March of 2020.00:12:35But even before that Bittrex had reached out to customers with inactive balances starting in March of 2022.00:12:48It emailed inactive customers and asked them to update their account information and to otherwise interact with the platform.00:13:00Inactive accounts also got letters in August of 2022 and in 2023 Bittrex mailed postcards to additional inactive customers.00:13:14As I said in March of 2023 Bittrex announced via Twitter that it was shutting down its US operations.00:13:22It sent an email to 1,045,323 users. Reminder emails were sent to 521,000 accounts on various dates in April.00:13:36Between March 31 and April 30 the customer support team resolved 27,000 help desk tickets.00:13:45After the bankruptcy 1.6 million customers got notice of the commencement via email.00:13:59Regular mail went to 44,000 parties in interest including certain customers where we knew their email wasn't good.00:14:09In total via email or regular mail Omni served the notice of the commencement on 1.652 million customers.00:14:21We similarly adopted a robust approach to the bar date notice knowing how important it was in the case of this type.00:14:30Could you remind me what's the bar date? What was the bar date?00:14:32The bar date was August 31. This status report may seem random but it happens to happen after the bar date before the disclosure statement.00:14:43That gets pretty timely.00:14:47That bar date went to even more customers, 1.9 million customers and regular mail to 57,000 parties in interest.00:14:59In total 2 million customers received either email or mail notice of the bar date.00:15:10There was also publication notice in CoinDesk, Wall Street Journal, and the Financial Times of London and the Financial Times of Malta.00:15:21It's not just financial. All of those publication notices have been filed on the docket.00:15:33There have been also social media efforts on Twitter. Twitter messages in June, July, and at the end of July.00:15:43There was a Reddit message on July 26. There was a text message where SMS had been authorized for the customers on August 2.00:15:52Can I ask just out of curiosity, who is doing that messaging via Twitter? Is that coming directly from the company or is that being managed by Omni or Kroll or somebody else?00:16:01It's being done by the company through the company's normal social media accounts.00:16:10As I said, I've been monitoring them as well, looking at customer feedback and seeing if there was anything that looked like a customer had a legitimate break.00:16:21We've been dealing with those throughout.00:16:25In addition, we prioritized balances over $100,000 and sent an additional mail to postcard to 73,000 customers on August 3.00:16:44We detailed the emails that have gone out to the email addresses on the platform and how those were targeted towards different groups with certain balances or locations in an attempt to provide as much notice as possible to the customers.00:17:06In addition to the withdrawals, the debtors have received 3,292 claims, of which 3,240 are customer proofs of claim and 52 are non-customer proofs of claim.00:17:19We, just so the court knows, it is our intention because some of the claims were filed by customers with very large amounts in them. One such claim had $160 million claimed.00:17:36We do plan on starting the proof of claim objection process soon, in the next few weeks.00:17:46We are cordially happy to accommodate scheduling in connection with that.00:17:50Thank you, Your Honor.00:17:51While I usually like to get creditors' votes before I object to their claims in this case, the proof of claim process is going to require company resources to resolve them.00:18:04It is as much a cost saving measure as it is trying to get to the bottom of these claims for feasibility purposes as well. The $150 million claim plus the SEC plus FinCEN, OFAC, that might get on the edge of feasibility.00:18:22We are going to have some of those objections filed.00:18:25Okay. I understand.00:18:28We filed our plan and disclosure statement on August 25th. We have our disclosure statement hearing on September 26th.00:18:39For disclosure purposes, we've only unimpaired priority claims because they're statutorily unimpaired. Everybody else is going to get a chance to vote.00:18:50Whether or not they're impaired will lead for a confirmation objection, but everybody's going to get to vote.00:18:57That leaves our next few deadlines of disclosure statement hearing.00:19:033018 motions on 929. Voting is on October 16.00:19:11Confirmation hearing is October 23rd.00:19:17If the court has any other questions, we wanted to present that to the court showing where we are post-BAR date, pre-discourse statement.00:19:27This is particularly helpful to me. I appreciate getting the heads up.00:19:30Again, as I said, I really don't have much visibility.00:19:33Most of the activity you've described is not necessarily taking place on the docket or in open court.00:19:41At the outset of this case, you all reported that there were many, many holders or potential holders and lots of people with an interest in this exercise.00:19:50You laid out with, I think, specificity what your intentions were in terms of dealing with those folks.00:19:58I think you started and repeated a number of times that the circumstances of this particular crypto case are very different from most of the others that are pending or in the ABI headlines.00:20:08I get it. Let me ask you a question.00:20:11It is just, frankly, out of curiosity.00:20:13I confess that I have not gone back and looked again at the plan and the disclosure statement.00:20:17That hearing is coming up in a couple of weeks, and I will certainly be prepared for that.00:20:22The process that you've just described clearly leads to an assumption that there will be significant assets and the number of parties that have lost interest in this exercise.00:20:36They've only got $25, $50, $100 with you. They don't want to fill out a bunch of paperwork over it. They haven't thought about this since 2018. I get it.00:20:45This would seem to me, then, to be one of these cases that has a fair number of assets at the end of it that need to be disposed of, and I assume that the plan provides for the mechanism for doing that.00:21:03Is there an expectation that there will be funds left over that are not claimed by creditors, and do they then get used in the implementation of the plan, or are they given away, or is geded, or I don't know exactly what happens?00:21:18Sources and uses?00:21:19Yeah.00:21:20So we're going to have claims. We have settlements with FinCEN, OPAC, and the SEC. Those are significant numbers.00:21:27Right.00:21:28We have the costs of administration. We have the claims that are on file, so those will all come out of whatever is left.00:21:37But at this point, one of the reasons why we want to do some claim objections is to make sure we have enough to pay all the claims, and if those are successful, I believe there will be money left over.00:21:51Okay.00:21:52Well, the claims reconciliation process is an exercise that, as you described, is often one that depends upon the judgment and discretion of the debtor about the fights that are, whether it's worth picking these fights, but obviously some of these steps may need to be taken in the context of the confirmation process.00:22:12If you need scheduling with respect to claims administration, again, you can contact Ms. Velo in my chambers, and she'll be happy to give you hearing data if you need it.00:22:20Correct. We've been working with Mr. Enos in terms of coming up with any kind of procedures that we're going to conform with the local rules.00:22:31I will tell you our approach is we're going to take the low-hanging fruit first, which is duplicates.00:22:41Yeah, you separate wheat from chaff.00:22:43Yeah, but in the very large claims that were filed that have no correlation with what is shown on the debtor's books and records.00:22:51Okay.00:22:52Well, I do not have any questions and again I very much appreciate getting the report.00:23:00You know this case has unusual features, but all the crypto cases do but these are at least features that I can understand when they're explained to me.00:23:09Yes, Mr. Sheppard Carter, did you have anything to answer?00:23:14Sure.00:23:17For the record, Richard Park, the United States, trustee, we haven't completed our review of the plan disclosure statement and the procedures, of course, attended there to the deadlines 21st.00:23:27I'm hoping that by Friday, I can get out my comments to counsel.00:23:32I like to do it that way, get the comments out, see if we can work through what we can work through. If we have to file objections, we'll take that up into the course.00:23:42I think after that, we'll just go to plan confirmation and we'll see where we go from there and hopefully we get there in the middle of October.00:23:53Very good.00:23:54Other than that, if nothing else, you're all invited.00:23:56I note that we have a number of parties that are participating virtually. I would ask if anyone else wishes to be heard with respect to the debtor's status report to the court on developments in the Chapter 11 case.00:24:13Hearing no response, again, I very much appreciate getting the status report from the debtor. I had no further questions.00:24:19As noted, if the debtor requires scheduling or other support from the court as you move forward through the disclosure statement and into plan confirmation, all you need to do is call chambers and we'll be happy to accommodate with any scheduling needs that you have.00:24:34But with that, I believe we are adjourned. Thank you, counsel.00:24:37We stand in recess.

32I met Tony Dushane a couple years ago when he enrolled in my class on creative alchemy. It was inspired by the idea that artists are alchemists: explorers of the invisible realms and spiritual healers. And like alchemy, the power of art transforms and transmutes. As I got to know Tony, I learned how his life-story is a beautiful demonstration of art as alchemy. Tony was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, an apocalyptic Christian sect that most people describe as a cult. For the first 20+ years of his life, Tony was a true believer: pained by the urgency of the last days, knocking on doors, and living in an ideological echo chamber. But by the time I met Tony, he was an avid student of magic, astrology and alchemy. And he'd experienced a rare level of success as a writer, publishing a novel based on his life called Confessions of a Teenage Jesus Jerk. His book captured the attention of the actor/director Eric Stoltz, who turned it into a movie. Through the art of writing, Tony's life story was submitted to the alchemical process: heartbreak and tragedy uplifted into comedic and romantic nostalgia. And the film was the final transmutation.I wanted to interview Tony because I was so curious about what it was like growing up as a Jehovah's Witness, why he left that world behind and how he became an artist.In our interview, we discuss…* How his friend's suicide triggered his ideological awakening* How the public library was a sanctuary that “literally saved his life” * Creative writing as a “conversation with the ancients”* Needing therapy after leaving the church* What it was like making a movie with Eric Stoltz * His astrology chart, how the planets reveal his artistic gifts* His current relationship with the Bible and the teachings of Christ* AI and corporate greed as the enemy of art* Why writers should never be afraid to write “shitty first drafts”* And why he teaches a free writing class at the Los Feliz Public library           Support the showSupport the show at https://www.patreon.com/aeolianheart

17Only let each person lead the life[a]that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him.This is my rule inall the churches.18Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised?Let him not seek circumcision.19For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, butkeeping the commandments of God.20Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.21Were you a bondservant[b]when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.)22For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant isa freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called isa bondservant of Christ.23You were bought with a price;do not become bondservants of men.24So, brothers,[c]in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God. The Unmarried and the Widowed 25Now concerning[d]the betrothed,[e]I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment asone who by the Lord's mercy istrustworthy.26I think that in view of the present[f]distressit is good for a person to remain as he is.27Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife.28But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman[g]marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.29This is what I mean, brothers:the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none,30and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buyas though they had no goods,31and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. Forthe present form of this world is passing away. 32I want you to befree from anxieties.The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.33But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife,34and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband.35I say this for your own benefit,not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord. 36If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed,[h]if his[i]passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marryit is no sin.37But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well.38So then he who marries his betrotheddoes well, and he who refrains from marriage will do even better. 39A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, onlyin the Lord.40Yetin my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I thinkthat I too have the Spirit of God.

Entrance Hymn #410 Praise, My Soul, The King of HeavenSequence Hymn #533 How Wondrous and Great Thy WorksOffertory Anthem “Simple Song: from Mass (Bernstein) Sarah Izzi Hamel, SoloistCommunion Anthem Hear My Cry, O God (Franck) Sarah Izzi Hamel, Soloist Post-Communion Hymn #371 Thou, Whose Almighty WordTHE COLLECT OF THE DAYAlmighty God, you have given your only Son to be for us a sacrifice for sin, and also an example of godly life: Give us grace to receive thankfully the fruits of his redeeming work, and to follow daily in the blessed steps of his most holy life; through Jesus Christ your Son our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.FIRST READING Isaiah 56:1,6-8Thus says the LORD: Maintain justice, and do what is right, for soon my salvation will come, andmy deliverance be revealed.And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name ofthe LORD, and to be his servants, all who keep the sabbath, and do not profane it, and hold fast my covenant--these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.Thus says the Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, I will gather others to them besides those already gathered.PSALM Psalm 67 Deus misereatur 1 May God be merciful to us and bless us, *show us the light of his countenance and come to us.2 Let your ways be known upon earth, * your saving health among all nations.3 Let the peoples praise you, O God; * let all the peoples praise you.4 Let the nations be glad and sing for joy, * for you judge the peoples with equity and guide all the nations upon earth.5 Let the peoples praise you, O God; * let all the peoples praise you.6 The earth has brought forth her increase; *may God, our own God, give us his blessing.7 May God give us his blessing, *and may all the ends of the earth stand in awe of him.SECOND READING Romans 11:1-2a, 29-32I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant ofAbraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.GOSPEL Matthew 15: (10-20), 21-28[Jesus called the crowd to him and said to them, “Listen and understand: it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles.” Then the disciples approached and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees took offense when they heard what you said?” He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if one blind person guides another, both will fall into a pit.” But Peter said to him, “Explain this parable to us.” Then he said, “Are you also still without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth enters the stomach, and goes out into the sewer? But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this is...

Bible Reading: Ephesians 4:29-32I didn't do anything wrong, Hayley thought as she stared at the TV, wiping away tears. Her dad never yelled at her like that. She had just been singing. He had told her before that he loved to hear her sing."Aren't you going to eat with us?" Hayley's older brother peeked into the room.Hayley shook her head. "I'm not hungry.""What's wrong?" Mikey walked over to her.Hayley's brother was a teenager. He would think she was stupid for crying. "Nothing.""Something is wrong, Hay." Mikey sat down beside her. "Spill.""Fine." Hayley closed her eyes. "Dad yelled at me in the car. He told me to shut up.""What?" Mikey looked shocked."I was just singing. And we're not supposed to say that." Hayley started to cry again.Mikey hugged her. "I'll save you some dinner in case you're hungry later."Hayley rested on the couch with her eyes closed, her dad's words playing over and over in her head, until she heard footsteps come into the room. She peeked her eyes open as her dad knelt on the floor beside the couch."Mikey told me you're upset," Dad said. "I was really stressed in the car. The traffic was bad and I was trying hard to focus." He brushed her hair back from her face. "I should have asked you nicely if you could be quiet instead of yelling at you.""You hurt my feelings," Hayley said."I know, and I'm sorry." Dad sighed. "It's like how you sometimes get angry if your brother makes a lot of noise while you're trying to practice for your recital. Sometimes we let anger take over when we're nervous and say hurtful things. But we don't have to let that happen. We can trust God to help us control our anger instead of letting it control us."Hayley knew her dad was right--she sometimes got angry when she was stressed too. She just hadn't expected that from him. "If God helps us control our anger, why did you let it control you?"Dad gave her a sad smile. "I'm not perfect. God's still working on me. I let anger take control today, but I'm glad I can always depend on God to forgive me and help me do better. I hope you'll forgive me too." -Emily AckerHow About You?Do you sometimes let anger take over? Do you yell or say hurtful things? Even adults struggle with anger sometimes.* But as Christians, we don't have to let anger control us. Through the Holy Spirit's power, we can control what we say and do when we feel angry. Remember He's working to make you more like Jesus, and trust Him to help you control your anger. *If an adult is hurting you because they can't control their anger, tell another adult who can help.Today's Key Verse:Better a patient person than a warrior, one with self-control than one who takes a city. (NIV) (Proverbs 16:32)Today's Key Thought:Don't let anger control you

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________ Opening Words:“Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.”Psalm 19:14 (ESV) Confession:Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God. Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen. Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in eternal life. Amen. The InvitatoryLord, open our lips.And our mouth shall proclaim your praise.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Venite (Psalm 95:1-7)Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. Come, let us sing to the Lord; * let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving * and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.For the Lord is a great God, * and a great King above all gods.In his hand are the caverns of the earth, * and the heights of the hills are his also.The sea is his, for he made it, * and his hands have molded the dry land.Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice! Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. The PsalterPsalm 69Salvum me fac1Save me, O God, *for the waters have risen up to my neck.2I am sinking in deep mire, *and there is no firm ground for my feet.3I have come into deep waters, *and the torrent washes over me.4I have grown weary with my crying;my throat is inflamed; *my eyes have failed from looking for my God.5Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head;my lying foes who would destroy me are mighty. *Must I then give back what I never stole?6O God, you know my foolishness, *and my faults are not hidden from you.7Let not those who hope in you be put to shame through me, Lord God of hosts; *let not those who seek you be disgraced because of me, O God of Israel.8Surely, for your sake have I suffered reproach, *and shame has covered my face.9I have become a stranger to my own kindred, *an alien to my mother's children.10Zeal for your house has eaten me up; *the scorn of those who scorn you has fallen upon me.11I humbled myself with fasting, *but that was turned to my reproach.12I put on sack-cloth also, *and became a byword among them.13Those who sit at the gate murmur against me, *and the drunkards make songs about me.14But as for me, this is my prayer to you, *at the time you have set, O Lord:15“In your great mercy, O God, *answer me with your unfailing help.16Save me from the mire; do not let me sink; *let me be rescued from those who hate meand out of the deep waters.17Let not the torrent of waters wash over me,neither let the deep swallow me up; *do not let the Pit shut its mouth upon me.18Answer me, O Lord, for your love is kind; *in your great compassion, turn to me.'19“Hide not your face from your servant; *be swift and answer me, for I am in distress.20Draw near to me and redeem me; *because of my enemies deliver me.21You know my reproach, my shame, and my dishonor; *my adversaries are all in your sight.”22Reproach has broken my heart, and it cannot be healed; *I looked for sympathy, but there was none,for comforters, but I could find no one.23They gave me gall to eat, *and when I was thirsty, they gave me vinegar to drink.31As for me, I am afflicted and in pain; *your help, O God, will lift me up on high.32I will praise the Name of God in song; *I will proclaim his greatness with thanksgiving.33This will please the Lord more than an offering of oxen, *more than bullocks with horns and hoofs.34The afflicted shall see and be glad; *you who seek God, your heart shall live.35For the Lord listens to the needy, *and his prisoners he does not despise.36Let the heavens and the earth praise him, *the seas and all that moves in them;37For God will save Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah; *they shall live there and have it in possession.38The children of his servants will inherit it, *and those who love his Name will dwell therein. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Lessons2 Samuel 5:1-12English Standard Version5 Then all the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron and said, “Behold, we are your bone and flesh. 2 In times past, when Saul was king over us, it was you who led out and brought in Israel. And the Lord said to you, ‘You shall be shepherd of my people Israel, and you shall be prince over Israel.'” 3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, and King David made a covenant with them at Hebron before the Lord, and they anointed David king over Israel. 4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years. 5 At Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and at Jerusalem he reigned over all Israel and Judah thirty-three years.6 And the king and his men went to Jerusalem against the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land, who said to David, “You will not come in here, but the blind and the lame will ward you off”—thinking, “David cannot come in here.” 7 Nevertheless, David took the stronghold of Zion, that is, the city of David. 8 And David said on that day, “Whoever would strike the Jebusites, let him get up the water shaft to attack ‘the lame and the blind,' who are hated by David's soul.” Therefore it is said, “The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.” 9 And David lived in the stronghold and called it the city of David. And David built the city all around from the Millo inward. 10 And David became greater and greater, for the Lord, the God of hosts, was with him.11 And Hiram king of Tyre sent messengers to David, and cedar trees, also carpenters and masons who built David a house. 12 And David knew that the Lord had established him king over Israel, and that he had exalted his kingdom for the sake of his people Israel. Acts 17:1-15English Standard Version17 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women. 5 But the Jews were jealous, and taking some wicked men of the rabble, they formed a mob, set the city in an uproar, and attacked the house of Jason, seeking to bring them out to the crowd. 6 And when they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some of the brothers before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have turned the world upside down have come here also, 7 and Jason has received them, and they are all acting against the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.” 8 And the people and the city authorities were disturbed when they heard these things. 9 And when they had taken money as security from Jason and the rest, they let them go.10 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. 12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men. 13 But when the Jews from Thessalonica learned that the word of God was proclaimed by Paul at Berea also, they came there too, agitating and stirring up the crowds. 14 Then the brothers immediately sent Paul off on his way to the sea, but Silas and Timothy remained there. 15 Those who conducted Paul brought him as far as Athens, and after receiving a command for Silas and Timothy to come to him as soon as possible, they departed. The Word of the Lord.Thanks Be To God. Benedictus (The Song of Zechariah)Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; * he has come to his people and set them free.He has raised up for us a mighty savior, * born of the house of his servant David.Through his holy prophets he promised of old, that he would save us from our enemies, * from the hands of all who hate us. He promised to show mercy to our fathers * and to remember his holy covenant. This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham, * to set us free from the hands of our enemies, Free to worship him without fear, * holy and righteous in his sight all the days of our life.You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High, * for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way, To give his people knowledge of salvation * by the forgiveness of their sins.In the tender compassion of our God * the dawn from on high shall break upon us, To shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death, * and to guide our feet into the way of peace.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The Apostles CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersLord, have mercy.Christ, have mercyLord, have mercyOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen. The SuffragesO Lord, show your mercy upon us;And grant us your salvation.O Lord, guide those who govern usAnd lead us in the way of justice and truth.Clothe your ministers with righteousnessAnd let your people sing with joy.O Lord, save your peopleAnd bless your inheritance.Give peace in our time, O LordAnd defend us by your mighty power.Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgottenNor the hope of the poor be taken away.Create in us clean hearts, O GodAnd take not your Holy Spirit from us. Take a moment of silence at this time to reflect and pray for others. The CollectsProper 12O God, the protector of all who trust in you, without whom nothing is strong, nothing is holy: Increase and multiply upon us your mercy; that, with you as our ruler and guide, we may so pass through things temporal, that we lose not the things eternal; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. Daily Collects:A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries, through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceO Lord, our heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this day: Defend us by your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin nor run into any danger; and that, guided by your Spirit, we may do what is righteous in your sight; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.Collect of Saint BasilO Christ God, Who art worshipped and glorified at every place and time; Who art long-suffering, most merciful and compassionate; Who lovest the righteous and art merciful to sinners; Who callest all to salvation with the promise of good things to come: receive, Lord, the prayers we now offer, and direct our lives in the way of Thy commandments. Sanctify our souls, cleanse our bodies, correct our thoughts, purify our minds and deliver us from all affliction, evil and illness. Surround us with Thy holy angels, that guarded and instructed by their forces, we may reach unity of faith and the understanding of Thine unapproachable glory: for blessed art Thou unto ages of ages. Amen. General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; Through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen. A Prayer of St. John ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time, with one accord to make our common supplications to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will grant their requests: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. DismissalLet us bless the LordThanks be to God!Alleluia, Alleluia! BenedictionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________Friday - Proper 5Opening Words:“Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.”Psalm 19:14 (ESV) Confession:Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God. Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen. Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in eternal life. Amen. The InvitatoryLord, open our lips.And our mouth shall proclaim your praise.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Venite (Psalm 95:1-7)Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. Come, let us sing to the Lord; * let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving * and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.For the Lord is a great God, * and a great King above all gods.In his hand are the caverns of the earth, * and the heights of the hills are his also.The sea is his, for he made it, * and his hands have molded the dry land.Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice! Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. The PsalterPsalm 69Salvum me fac1Save me, O God, *for the waters have risen up to my neck.2I am sinking in deep mire, *and there is no firm ground for my feet.3I have come into deep waters, *and the torrent washes over me.4I have grown weary with my crying;my throat is inflamed; *my eyes have failed from looking for my God.5Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head;my lying foes who would destroy me are mighty. *Must I then give back what I never stole?6O God, you know my foolishness, *and my faults are not hidden from you.7Let not those who hope in you be put to shame through me, Lord God of hosts; *let not those who seek you be disgraced because of me, O God of Israel.8Surely, for your sake have I suffered reproach, *and shame has covered my face.9I have become a stranger to my own kindred, *an alien to my mother's children.10Zeal for your house has eaten me up; *the scorn of those who scorn you has fallen upon me.11I humbled myself with fasting, *but that was turned to my reproach.12I put on sack-cloth also, *and became a byword among them.13Those who sit at the gate murmur against me, *and the drunkards make songs about me.14But as for me, this is my prayer to you, *at the time you have set, O Lord:15“In your great mercy, O God, *answer me with your unfailing help.16Save me from the mire; do not let me sink; *let me be rescued from those who hate meand out of the deep waters.17Let not the torrent of waters wash over me,neither let the deep swallow me up; *do not let the Pit shut its mouth upon me.18Answer me, O Lord, for your love is kind; *in your great compassion, turn to me.'19“Hide not your face from your servant; *be swift and answer me, for I am in distress.20Draw near to me and redeem me; *because of my enemies deliver me.21You know my reproach, my shame, and my dishonor; *my adversaries are all in your sight.”22Reproach has broken my heart, and it cannot be healed; *I looked for sympathy, but there was none,for comforters, but I could find no one.23They gave me gall to eat, *and when I was thirsty, they gave me vinegar to drink.31As for me, I am afflicted and in pain; *your help, O God, will lift me up on high.32I will praise the Name of God in song; *I will proclaim his greatness with thanksgiving.33This will please the Lord more than an offering of oxen, *more than bullocks with horns and hoofs.34The afflicted shall see and be glad; *you who seek God, your heart shall live.35For the Lord listens to the needy, *and his prisoners he does not despise.36Let the heavens and the earth praise him, *the seas and all that moves in them;37For God will save Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah; *they shall live there and have it in possession.38The children of his servants will inherit it, *and those who love his Name will dwell therein. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. LessonsSirach 45:6-16New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition6 He exalted Aaron, a holy man like Moses,    who was his brother, of the tribe of Levi.7 He made an everlasting covenant with him    and gave him the priesthood of the people.He blessed him with stateliness    and put a glorious robe on him.8 He clothed him in perfect splendor    and strengthened him with the apparel of authority,    the linen undergarments, the long robe, and the ephod.9 And he encircled him with pomegranates,    with many golden bells all around,to send forth a sound as he walked,    to make their ringing heard in the temple    as a reminder to his people;10 with the sacred vestment, of gold and violet    and purple, the work of an embroiderer;with the oracle of judgment, the manifestations of truth;11     with twisted crimson, the work of an artisan;with precious stones engraved like seals,    in a setting of gold, the work of a jeweler,to commemorate in engraved letters    each of the tribes of Israel;12 with a gold crown upon his turban,    inscribed like a holy seal,majestic and glorious, a work of power,    a delight to the eyes, richly adorned.13 Before him such beautiful things did not exist.    No outsider ever put them on,but only his sons    and his descendants in perpetuity.14 His sacrifices shall be wholly burned    twice every day continually.15 Moses ordained him    and anointed him with holy oil;it was an everlasting covenant for him    and for his descendants as long as the heavens endure,to minister to the Lord and serve as priest    and bless his people in his name.16 He chose him out of all the living    to offer sacrifice to the Lord,incense and a pleasing odor as a memorial,    to make atonement for the people. 2 Corinthians 12:11-21English Standard Version11 I have been a fool! You forced me to it, for I ought to have been commended by you. For I was not at all inferior to these super-apostles, even though I am nothing. 12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works. 13 For in what were you less favored than the rest of the churches, except that I myself did not burden you? Forgive me this wrong!14 Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you. For children are not obligated to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less? 16 But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by deceit. 17 Did I take advantage of you through any of those whom I sent to you? 18 I urged Titus to go, and sent the brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not act in the same spirit? Did we not take the same steps?19 Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? It is in the sight of God that we have been speaking in Christ, and all for your upbuilding, beloved. 20 For I fear that perhaps when I come I may find you not as I wish, and that you may find me not as you wish—that perhaps there may be quarreling, jealousy, anger, hostility, slander, gossip, conceit, and disorder. 21 I fear that when I come again my God may humble me before you, and I may have to mourn over many of those who sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual immorality, and sensuality that they have practiced. The Word of the Lord.Thanks Be To God. Benedictus (The Song of Zechariah)Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; * he has come to his people and set them free.He has raised up for us a mighty savior, * born of the house of his servant David.Through his holy prophets he promised of old, that he would save us from our enemies, * from the hands of all who hate us. He promised to show mercy to our fathers * and to remember his holy covenant. This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham, * to set us free from the hands of our enemies, Free to worship him without fear, * holy and righteous in his sight all the days of our life.You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High, * for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way, To give his people knowledge of salvation * by the forgiveness of their sins.In the tender compassion of our God * the dawn from on high shall break upon us, To shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death, * and to guide our feet into the way of peace.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The Apostles CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersLord, have mercy.Christ, have mercyLord, have mercyOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen. The SuffragesO Lord, show your mercy upon us;And grant us your salvation.O Lord, guide those who govern usAnd lead us in the way of justice and truth.Clothe your ministers with righteousnessAnd let your people sing with joy.O Lord, save your peopleAnd bless your inheritance.Give peace in our time, O LordAnd defend us by your mighty power.Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgottenNor the hope of the poor be taken away.Create in us clean hearts, O GodAnd take not your Holy Spirit from us. Take a moment of silence at this time to reflect and pray for others. The CollectsProper 5O God, from whom all good proceeds: Grant that by your inspiration we may think those things that are right, and by your merciful guiding may do them; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. Daily Collects:A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries, through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceO Lord, our heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this day: Defend us by your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin nor run into any danger; and that, guided by your Spirit, we may do what is righteous in your sight; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.Collect of Saint BasilO Christ God, Who art worshipped and glorified at every place and time; Who art long-suffering, most merciful and compassionate; Who lovest the righteous and art merciful to sinners; Who callest all to salvation with the promise of good things to come: receive, Lord, the prayers we now offer, and direct our lives in the way of Thy commandments. Sanctify our souls, cleanse our bodies, correct our thoughts, purify our minds and deliver us from all affliction, evil and illness. Surround us with Thy holy angels, that guarded and instructed by their forces, we may reach unity of faith and the understanding of Thine unapproachable glory: for blessed art Thou unto ages of ages. Amen. General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; Through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen. A Prayer of St. John ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time, with one accord to make our common supplications to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will grant their requests: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. DismissalLet us bless the LordThanks be to God!Alleluia, Alleluia! BenedictionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen

For 4 hours, I tried to come up reasons for why AI might not kill us all, and Eliezer Yudkowsky explained why I was wrong.We also discuss his call to halt AI, why LLMs make alignment harder, what it would take to save humanity, his millions of words of sci-fi, and much more.If you want to get to the crux of the conversation, fast forward to 2:35:00 through 3:43:54. Here we go through and debate the main reasons I still think doom is unlikely.Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here. Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.As always, the most helpful thing you can do is just to share the podcast - send it to friends, group chats, Twitter, Reddit, forums, and wherever else men and women of fine taste congregate.If you have the means and have enjoyed my podcast, I would appreciate your support via a paid subscriptions on Substack.Timestamps(0:00:00) - TIME article(0:09:06) - Are humans aligned?(0:37:35) - Large language models(1:07:15) - Can AIs help with alignment?(1:30:17) - Society's response to AI(1:44:42) - Predictions (or lack thereof)(1:56:55) - Being Eliezer(2:13:06) - Othogonality(2:35:00) - Could alignment be easier than we think?(3:02:15) - What will AIs want?(3:43:54) - Writing fiction & whether rationality helps you winTranscriptTIME articleDwarkesh Patel 0:00:51Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Eliezer Yudkowsky. Eliezer, thank you so much for coming out to the Lunar Society.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:01:00You're welcome.Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:01Yesterday, when we're recording this, you had an article in Time calling for a moratorium on further AI training runs. My first question is — It's probably not likely that governments are going to adopt some sort of treaty that restricts AI right now. So what was the goal with writing it?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:01:25I thought that this was something very unlikely for governments to adopt and then all of my friends kept on telling me — “No, no, actually, if you talk to anyone outside of the tech industry, they think maybe we shouldn't do that.” And I was like — All right, then. I assumed that this concept had no popular support. Maybe I assumed incorrectly. It seems foolish and to lack dignity to not even try to say what ought to be done. There wasn't a galaxy-brained purpose behind it. I think that over the last 22 years or so, we've seen a great lack of galaxy brained ideas playing out successfully.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:05Has anybody in the government reached out to you, not necessarily after the article but just in general, in a way that makes you think that they have the broad contours of the problem correct?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:02:15No. I'm going on reports that normal people are more willing than the people I've been previously talking to, to entertain calls that this is a bad idea and maybe you should just not do that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:30That's surprising to hear, because I would have assumed that the people in Silicon Valley who are weirdos would be more likely to find this sort of message. They could kind of rocket the whole idea that AI will make nanomachines that take over. It's surprising to hear that normal people got the message first.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:02:47Well, I hesitate to use the term midwit but maybe this was all just a midwit thing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:54All right. So my concern with either the 6 month moratorium or forever moratorium until we solve alignment is that at this point, it could make it seem to people like we're crying wolf. And it would be like crying wolf because these systems aren't yet at a point at which they're dangerous. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:03:13And nobody is saying they are. I'm not saying they are. The open letter signatories aren't saying they are.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:20So if there is a point at which we can get the public momentum to do some sort of stop, wouldn't it be useful to exercise it when we get a GPT-6? And who knows what it's capable of. Why do it now?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:03:32Because allegedly, and we will see, people right now are able to appreciate that things are storming ahead a bit faster than the ability to ensure any sort of good outcome for them. And you could be like — “Ah, yes. We will play the galaxy-brained clever political move of trying to time when the popular support will be there.” But again, I heard rumors that people were actually completely open to the concept of  let's stop. So again, I'm just trying to say it. And it's not clear to me what happens if we wait for GPT-5 to say it. I don't actually know what GPT-5 is going to be like. It has been very hard to call the rate at which these systems acquire capability as they are trained to larger and larger sizes and more and more tokens. GPT-4 is a bit beyond in some ways where I thought this paradigm was going to scale. So I don't actually know what happens if GPT-5 is built. And even if GPT-5 doesn't end the world, which I agree is like more than 50% of where my probability mass lies, maybe that's enough time for GPT-4.5 to get ensconced everywhere and in everything, and for it actually to be harder to call a stop, both politically and technically. There's also the point that training algorithms keep improving. If we put a hard limit on the total computes and training runs right now, these systems would still get more capable over time as the algorithms improved and got more efficient. More oomph per floating point operation, and things would still improve, but slower. And if you start that process off at the GPT-5 level, where I don't actually know how capable that is exactly, you may have a bunch less lifeline left before you get into dangerous territory.Dwarkesh Patel 0:05:46The concern is then that — there's millions of GPUs out there in the world. The actors who would be willing to cooperate or who could even be identified in order to get the government to make them cooperate, would potentially be the ones that are most on the message. And so what you're left with is a system where they stagnate for six months or a year or however long this lasts. And then what is the game plan? Is there some plan by which if we wait a few years, then alignment will be solved? Do we have some sort of timeline like that?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:06:18Alignment will not be solved in a few years. I would hope for something along the lines of human intelligence enhancement works. I do not think they're going to have the timeline for genetically engineered humans to work but maybe? This is why I mentioned in the Time letter that if I had infinite capability to dictate the laws that there would be a carve-out on biology, AI that is just for biology and not trained on text from the internet. Human intelligence enhancement, make people smarter. Making people smarter has a chance of going right in a way that making an extremely smart AI does not have a realistic chance of going right at this point. If we were on a sane planet, what the sane planet does at this point is shut it all down and work on human intelligence enhancement. I don't think we're going to live in that sane world. I think we are all going to die. But having heard that people are more open to this outside of California, it makes sense to me to just try saying out loud what it is that you do on a saner planet and not just assume that people are not going to do that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:07:30In what percentage of the worlds where humanity survives is there human enhancement? Like even if there's 1% chance humanity survives, is that entire branch dominated by the worlds where there's some sort of human intelligence enhancement?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:07:39I think we're just mainly in the territory of Hail Mary passes at this point, and human intelligence enhancement is one Hail Mary pass. Maybe you can put people in MRIs and train them using neurofeedback to be a little saner, to not rationalize so much. Maybe you can figure out how to have something light up every time somebody is working backwards from what they want to be true to what they take as their premises. Maybe you can just fire off little lights and teach people not to do that so much. Maybe the GPT-4 level systems can be RLHF'd (reinforcement learning from human feedback) into being consistently smart, nice and charitable in conversation and just unleash a billion of them on Twitter and just have them spread sanity everywhere. I do worry that this is not going to be the most profitable use of the technology, but you're asking me to list out Hail Mary passes and that's what I'm doing. Maybe you can actually figure out how to take a brain, slice it, scan it, simulate it, run uploads and upgrade the uploads, or run the uploads faster. These are also quite dangerous things, but they do not have the utter lethality of artificial intelligence.Are humans aligned?Dwarkesh Patel 0:09:06All right, that's actually a great jumping point into the next topic I want to talk to you about. Orthogonality. And here's my first question — Speaking of human enhancement, suppose you bred human beings to be friendly and cooperative, but also more intelligent. I claim that over many generations you would just have really smart humans who are also really friendly and cooperative. Would you disagree with that analogy? I'm sure you're going to disagree with this analogy, but I just want to understand why?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:09:31The main thing is that you're starting from minds that are already very, very similar to yours. You're starting from minds, many of which already exhibit the characteristics that you want. There are already many people in the world, I hope, who are nice in the way that you want them to be nice. Of course, it depends on how nice you want exactly. I think that if you actually go start trying to run a project of selectively encouraging some marriages between particular people and encouraging them to have children, you will rapidly find, as one does in any such process that when you select on the stuff you want, it turns out there's a bunch of stuff correlated with it and that you're not changing just one thing. If you try to make people who are inhumanly nice, who are nicer than anyone has ever been before, you're going outside the space that human psychology has previously evolved and adapted to deal with, and weird stuff will happen to those people. None of this is very analogous to AI. I'm just pointing out something along the lines of — well, taking your analogy at face value, what would happen exactly? It's the sort of thing where you could maybe do it, but there's all kinds of pitfalls that you'd probably find out about if you cracked open a textbook on animal breeding.Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:13The thing you mentioned initially, which is that we are starting off with basic human psychology, that we are fine tuning with breeding. Luckily, the current paradigm of AI is  — you have these models that are trained on human text and I would assume that this would give you a starting point of something like human psychology.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:11:31Why do you assume that?Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:33Because they're trained on human text.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:11:34And what does that do?Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:36Whatever thoughts and emotions that lead to the production of human text need to be simulated in the AI in order to produce those results.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:11:44I see. So if you take an actor and tell them to play a character, they just become that person. You can tell that because you see somebody on screen playing Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and that's probably just actually Buffy in there. That's who that is.Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:05I think a better analogy is if you have a child and you tell him — Hey, be this way. They're more likely to just be that way instead of putting on an act for 20 years or something.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:12:18It depends on what you're telling them to be exactly. Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:20You're telling them to be nice.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:12:22Yeah, but that's not what you're telling them to do. You're telling them to play the part of an alien, something with a completely inhuman psychology as extrapolated by science fiction authors, and in many cases done by computers because humans can't quite think that way. And your child eventually manages to learn to act that way. What exactly is going on in there now? Are they just the alien or did they pick up the rhythm of what you're asking them to imitate and be like — “Ah yes, I see who I'm supposed to pretend to be.” Are they actually a person or are they pretending? That's true even if you're not asking them to be an alien. My parents tried to raise me Orthodox Jewish and that did not take at all. I learned to pretend. I learned to comply. I hated every minute of it. Okay, not literally every minute of it. I should avoid saying untrue things. I hated most minutes of it. Because they were trying to show me a way to be that was alien to my own psychology and the religion that I actually picked up was from the science fiction books instead, as it were. I'm using religion very metaphorically here, more like ethos, you might say. I was raised with science fiction books I was reading from my parents library and Orthodox Judaism. The ethos of the science fiction books rang truer in my soul and so that took in, the Orthodox Judaism didn't. But the Orthodox Judaism was what I had to imitate, was what I had to pretend to be, was the answers I had to give whether I believed them or not. Because otherwise you get punished.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:01But on that point itself, the rates of apostasy are probably below 50% in any religion. Some people do leave but often they just become the thing they're imitating as a child.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:14:12Yes, because the religions are selected to not have that many apostates. If aliens came in and introduced their religion, you'd get a lot more apostates.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:19Right. But I think we're probably in a more virtuous situation with ML because these systems are regularized through stochastic gradient descent. So the system that is pretending to be something where there's multiple layers of interpretation is going to be more complex than the one that is just being the thing. And over time, the system that is just being the thing will be optimized, right? It'll just be simpler.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:14:42This seems like an ordinate cope. For one thing, you're not training it to be any one particular person. You're training it to switch masks to anyone on the Internet as soon as they figure out who that person on the internet is. If I put the internet in front of you and I was like — learn to predict the next word over and over. You do not just turn into a random human because the random human is not what's best at predicting the next word of everyone who's ever been on the internet. You learn to very rapidly pick up on the cues of what sort of person is talking, what will they say next? You memorize so many facts just because they're helpful in predicting the next word. You learn all kinds of patterns, you learn all the languages. You learn to switch rapidly from being one kind of person or another as the conversation that you are predicting changes who is speaking. This is not a human we're describing. You are not training a human there.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:43Would you at least say that we are living in a better situation than one in which we have some sort of black box where you have a machiavellian fittest survive simulation that produces AI? This situation is at least more likely to produce alignment than one in which something that is completely untouched by human psychology would produce?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:16:06More likely? Yes. Maybe you're an order of magnitude likelier. 0% instead of 0%. Getting stuff to be more likely does not help you if the baseline is nearly zero. The whole training set up there is producing an actress, a predictor. It's not actually being put into the kind of ancestral situation that evolved humans, nor the kind of modern situation that raises humans. Though to be clear, raising it like a human wouldn't help, But you're giving it a very alien problem that is not what humans solve and it is solving that problem not in the way a human would.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:44Okay, so how about this. I can see that I certainly don't know for sure what is going on in these systems. In fact, obviously nobody does. But that also goes through you. Could it not just be that reinforcement learning works and all these other things we're trying somehow work and actually just being an actor produces some sort of benign outcome where there isn't that level of simulation and conniving?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:17:15I think it predictably breaks down as you try to make the system smarter, as you try to derive sufficiently useful work from it. And in particular, the sort of work where some other AI doesn't just kill you off six months later. Yeah, I think the present system is not smart enough to have a deep conniving actress thinking long strings of coherent thoughts about how to predict the next word. But as the mask that it wears, as the people it is pretending to be get smarter and smarter, I think that at some point the thing in there that is predicting how humans plan, predicting how humans talk, predicting how humans think, and needing to be at least as smart as the human it is predicting in order to do that, I suspect at some point there is a new coherence born within the system and something strange starts happening. I think that if you have something that can accurately predict Eliezer Yudkowsky, to use a particular example I know quite well, you've got to be able to do the kind of thinking where you are reflecting on yourself and that in order to simulate Eliezer Yudkowsky reflecting on himself, you need to be able to do that kind of thinking. This is not airtight logic but I expect there to be a discount factor. If you ask me to play a part of somebody who's quite unlike me, I think there's some amount of penalty that the character I'm playing gets to his intelligence because I'm secretly back there simulating him. That's even if we're quite similar and the stranger they are, the more unfamiliar the situation, the less the person I'm playing is as smart as I am and the more they are dumber than I am. So similarly, I think that if you get an AI that's very, very good at predicting what Eliezer says, I think that there's a quite alien mind doing that, and it actually has to be to some degree smarter than me in order to play the role of something that thinks differently from how it does very, very accurately. And I reflect on myself, I think about how my thoughts are not good enough by my own standards and how I want to rearrange my own thought processes. I look at the world and see it going the way I did not want it to go, and asking myself how could I change this world? I look around at other humans and I model them, and sometimes I try to persuade them of things. These are all capabilities that the system would then be somewhere in there. And I just don't trust the blind hope that all of that capability is pointed entirely at pretending to be Eliezer and only exists insofar as it's the mirror and isomorph of Eliezer. That all the prediction is by being something exactly like me and not thinking about me while not being me.Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:55I certainly don't want to claim that it is guaranteed that there isn't something super alien and something against our aims happening within the shoggoth. But you made an earlier claim which seemed much stronger than the idea that you don't want blind hope, which is that we're going from 0% probability to an order of magnitude greater at 0% probability. There's a difference between saying that we should be wary and that there's no hope, right? I could imagine so many things that could be happening in the shoggoth's brain, especially in our level of confusion and mysticism over what is happening. One example is, let's say that it kind of just becomes the average of all human psychology and motives.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:21:41But it's not the average. It is able to be every one of those people. That's very different from being the average. It's very different from being an average chess player versus being able to predict every chess player in the database. These are very different things.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:56Yeah, no, I meant in terms of motives that it is the average where it can simulate any given human. I'm not saying that's the most likely one, I'm just saying it's one possibility.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:22:08What.. Why? It just seems 0% probable to me. Like the motive is going to be like some weird funhouse mirror thing of — I want to predict very accurately.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:19Right. Why then are we so sure that whatever drives that come about because of this motive are going to be incompatible with the survival and flourishing with humanity?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:22:30Most drives when you take a loss function and splinter it into things correlated with it and then amp up intelligence until some kind of strange coherence is born within the thing and then ask it how it would want to self modify or what kind of successor system it would build. Things that alien ultimately end up wanting the universe to be some particular way such that humans are not a solution to the question of how to make the universe most that way. The thing that very strongly wants to predict text, even if you got that goal into the system exactly which is not what would happen, The universe with the most predictable text is not a universe that has humans in it. Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:19Okay. I'm not saying this is the most likely outcome. Here's an example of one of many ways in which humans stay around despite this motive. Let's say that in order to predict human output really well, it needs humans around to give it the raw data from which to improve its predictions or something like that. This is not something I think individually is likely…Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:23:40If the humans are no longer around, you no longer need to predict them. Right, so you don't need the data required to predict themDwarkesh Patel 0:23:46Because you are starting off with that motivation you want to just maximize along that loss function or have that drive that came about because of the loss function.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:23:57I'm confused. So look, you can always develop arbitrary fanciful scenarios in which the AI has some contrived motive that it can only possibly satisfy by keeping humans alive in good health and comfort and turning all the nearby galaxies into happy, cheerful places full of high functioning galactic civilizations. But as soon as your sentence has more than like five words in it, its probability has dropped to basically zero because of all the extra details you're padding in.Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:31Maybe let's return to this. Another train of thought I want to follow is — I claim that humans have not become orthogonal to the sort of evolutionary process that produced them.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:24:46Great. I claim humans are increasingly orthogonal and the further they go out of distribution and the smarter they get, the more orthogonal they get to inclusive genetic fitness, the sole loss function on which humans were optimized.Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:03Most humans still want kids and have kids and care for their kin. Certainly there's some angle between how humans operate today. Evolution would prefer us to use less condoms and more sperm banks. But there's like 10 billion of us and there's going to be more in the future. We haven't divorced that far from what our alleles would want.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:25:28It's a question of how far out of distribution are you? And the smarter you are, the more out of distribution you get. Because as you get smarter, you get new options that are further from the options that you are faced with in the ancestral environment that you were optimized over. Sure, a lot of people want kids, not inclusive genetic fitness, but kids. They want kids similar to them maybe, but they don't want the kids to have their DNA or their alleles or their genes. So suppose I go up to somebody and credibly say, we will assume away the ridiculousness of this offer for the moment, your kids could be a bit smarter and much healthier if you'll just let me replace their DNA with this alternate storage method that will age more slowly. They'll be healthier, they won't have to worry about DNA damage, they won't have to worry about the methylation on the DNA flipping and the cells de-differentiating as they get older. We've got this stuff that replaces DNA and your kid will still be similar to you, it'll be a bit smarter and they'll be so much healthier and even a bit more cheerful. You just have to replace all the DNA with a stronger substrate and rewrite all the information on it. You know, the old school transhumanist offer really. And I think that a lot of the people who want kids would go for this new offer that just offers them so much more of what it is they want from kids than copying the DNA, than inclusive genetic fitness.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:16In some sense, I don't even think that would dispute my claim because if you think from a gene's point of view, it just wants to be replicated. If it's replicated in another substrate that's still okay.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:27:25No, we're not saving the information. We're doing a total rewrite to the DNA.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:30I actually claim that most humans would not accept that offer.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:27:33Yeah, because it would sound weird. But I think the smarter they are, the more likely they are to go for it if it's credible. I mean, if you assume away the credibility issue and the weirdness issue. Like all their friends are doing it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:52Yeah. Even if the smarter they are the more likely they're to do it, most humans are not that smart. From the gene's point of view it doesn't really matter how smart you are, right? It just matters if you're producing copies.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:28:03No. The smart thing is kind of like a delicate issue here because somebody could always be like — I would never take that offer. And then I'm like “Yeah…”. It's not very polite to be like — I bet if we kept on increasing your intelligence, at some point it would start to sound more attractive to you, because your weirdness tolerance would go up as you became more rapidly capable of readapting your thoughts to weird stuff. The weirdness would start to seem less unpleasant and more like you were moving within a space that you already understood. But you can sort of avoid all that and maybe should by being like — suppose all your friends were doing it. What if it was normal? What if we remove the weirdness and remove any credibility problems in that hypothetical case? Do people choose for their kids to be dumber, sicker, less pretty out of some sentimental idealistic attachment to using Deoxyribose Nucleic Acid instead of the particular information encoding their cells as supposed to be like the new improved cells from Alpha-Fold 7?Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:21I would claim that they would but we don't really know. I claim that they would be more averse to that, you probably think that they would be less averse to that. Regardless of that, we can just go by the evidence we do have in that we are already way out of distribution of the ancestral environment. And even in this situation, the place where we do have evidence, people are still having kids. We haven't gone that orthogonal.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:29:44We haven't gone that smart. What you're saying is — Look, people are still making more of their DNA in a situation where nobody has offered them a way to get all the stuff they want without the DNA. So of course they haven't tossed DNA out the window.Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:59Yeah. First of all, I'm not even sure what would happen in that situation. I still think even most smart humans in that situation might disagree, but we don't know what would happen in that situation. Why not just use the evidence we have so far?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:30:10PCR. You right now, could get some of you and make like a whole gallon jar full of your own DNA. Are you doing that? No. Misaligned. Misaligned.Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:23I'm down with transhumanism. I'm going to have my kids use the new cells and whatever.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:30:27Oh, so we're all talking about these hypothetical other people I think would make the wrong choice.Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:32Well, I wouldn't say wrong, but different. And I'm just saying there's probably more of them than there are of us.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:30:37What if, like, I say that I have more faith in normal people than you do to toss DNA out the window as soon as somebody offers them a happy, healthier life for their kids?Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:46I'm not even making a moral point. I'm just saying I don't know what's going to happen in the future. Let's just look at the evidence we have so far, humans. If that's the evidence you're going to present for something that's out of distribution and has gone orthogonal, that has actually not happened. This is evidence for hope. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:31:00Because we haven't yet had options as far enough outside of the ancestral distribution that in the course of choosing what we most want that there's no DNA left.Dwarkesh Patel 0:31:10Okay. Yeah, I think I understand.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:31:12But you yourself say, “Oh yeah, sure, I would choose that.” and I myself say, “Oh yeah, sure, I would choose that.” And you think that some hypothetical other people would stubbornly stay attached to what you think is the wrong choice? First of all, I think maybe you're being a bit condescending there. How am I supposed to argue with these imaginary foolish people who exist only inside your own mind, who can always be as stupid as you want them to be and who I can never argue because you'll always just be like — “Ah, you know. They won't be persuaded by that.” But right here in this room, the site of this videotaping, there is no counter evidence that smart enough humans will toss DNA out the window as soon as somebody makes them a sufficiently better offer.Dwarkesh Patel 0:31:55I'm not even saying it's stupid. I'm just saying they're not weirdos like me and you.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:32:01Weird is relative to intelligence. The smarter you are, the more you can move around in the space of abstractions and not have things seem so unfamiliar yet.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:11But let me make the claim that in fact we're probably in an even better situation than we are with evolution because when we're designing these systems, we're doing it in a deliberate, incremental and in some sense a little bit transparent way. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:32:27No, no, not yet, not now. Nobody's being careful and deliberate now, but maybe at some point in the indefinite future people will be careful and deliberate. Sure, let's grant that premise. Keep going.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:37Well, it would be like a weak god who is just slightly omniscient being able to strike down any guy he sees pulling out. Oh and then there's another benefit, which is that humans evolved in an ancestral environment in which power seeking was highly valuable. Like if you're in some sort of tribe or something.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:32:59Sure, lots of instrumental values made their way into us but even more strange, warped versions of them make their way into our intrinsic motivations.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:09Yeah, even more so than the current loss functions have.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:33:10Really? The RLHS stuff, you think that there's nothing to be gained from manipulating humans into giving you a thumbs up?Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:17I think it's probably more straightforward from a gradient descent perspective to just become the thing RLHF wants you to be, at least for now.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:33:24Where are you getting this?Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:25Because it just kind of regularizes these sorts of extra abstractions you might want to put onEliezer Yudkowsky 0:33:30Natural selection regularizes so much harder than gradient descent in that way. It's got an enormously stronger information bottleneck. Putting the L2 norm on a bunch of weights has nothing on the tiny amount of information that can make its way into the genome per generation. The regularizers on natural selection are enormously stronger.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:51Yeah. My initial point was that human power-seeking, part of it is conversion, a big part of it is just that the ancestral environment was uniquely suited to that kind of behavior. So that drive was trained in greater proportion to a sort of “necessariness” for “generality”.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:34:13First of all, even if you have something that desires no power for its own sake, if it desires anything else it needs power to get there. Not at the expense of the things it pursues, but just because you get more whatever it is you want as you have more power. And sufficiently smart things know that. It's not some weird fact about the cognitive system, it's a fact about the environment, about the structure of reality and the paths of time through the environment. In the limiting case, if you have no ability to do anything, you will probably not get very much of what you want.Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:53Imagine a situation like in an ancestral environment, if some human starts exhibiting power seeking behavior before he realizes that he should try to hide it, we just kill him off. And the friendly cooperative ones, we let them breed more. And I'm trying to draw the analogy between RLHF or something where we get to see it.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:35:12Yeah, I think my concern is that that works better when the things you're breeding are stupider than you as opposed to when they are smarter than you. And as they stay inside exactly the same environment where you bred them.Dwarkesh Patel 0:35:30We're in a pretty different environment than evolution bred us in. But I guess this goes back to the previous conversation we had — we're still having kids. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:35:36Because nobody's made them an offer for better kids with less DNADwarkesh Patel 0:35:43Here's what I think is the problem. I can just look out of the world and see this is what it looks like. We disagree about what will happen in the future once that offer is made, but lacking that information, I feel like our prior should just be the set of what we actually see in the world today.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:35:55Yeah I think in that case, we should believe that the dates on the calendars will never show 2024. Every single year throughout human history, in the 13.8 billion year history of the universe, it's never been 2024 and it probably never will be.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:10The difference is that we have very strong reasons for expecting the turn of the year.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:36:19Are you extrapolating from your past data to outside the range of data?Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:24Yes, I think we have a good reason to. I don't think human preferences are as predictable as dates.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:36:29Yeah, they're somewhat less so. Sorry, why not jump on this one? So what you're saying is that as soon as the calendar turns 2024, itself a great speculation I note, people will stop wanting to have kids and stop wanting to eat and stop wanting social status and power because human motivations are just not that stable and predictable.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:51No. That's not what I'm claiming at all. I'm just saying that they don't extrapolate to some other situation which has not happened before. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:36:59Like the clock showing 2024?Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:01What is an example here? Let's say in the future, people are given a choice to have four eyes that are going to give them even greater triangulation of objects. I wouldn't assume that they would choose to have four eyes.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:37:16Yeah. There's no established preference for four eyes.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:18Is there an established preference for transhumanism and wanting your DNA modified?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:37:22There's an established preference for people going to some lengths to make their kids healthier, not necessarily via the options that they would have later, but the options that they do have now.Large language modelsDwarkesh Patel 0:37:35Yeah. We'll see, I guess, when that technology becomes available. Let me ask you about LLMs. So what is your position now about whether these things can get us to AGI?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:37:47I don't know. I was previously like — I don't think stack more layers does this. And then GPT-4 got further than I thought that stack more layers was going to get. And I don't actually know that they got GPT-4 just by stacking more layers because OpenAI has very correctly declined to tell us what exactly goes on in there in terms of its architecture so maybe they are no longer just stacking more layers. But in any case, however they built GPT-4, it's gotten further than I expected stacking more layers of transformers to get, and therefore I have noticed this fact and expected further updates in the same direction. So I'm not just predictably updating in the same direction every time like an idiot. And now I do not know. I am no longer willing to say that GPT-6 does not end the world.Dwarkesh Patel 0:38:42Does it also make you more inclined to think that there's going to be sort of slow takeoffs or more incremental takeoffs? Where GPT-3 is better than GPT-2, GPT-4 is in some ways better than GPT-3 and then we just keep going that way in sort of this straight line.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:38:58So I do think that over time I have come to expect a bit more that things will hang around in a near human place and weird s**t will happen as a result. And my failure review where I look back and ask — was that a predictable sort of mistake? I feel like it was to some extent maybe a case of — you're always going to get capabilities in some order and it was much easier to visualize the endpoint where you have all the capabilities than where you have some of the capabilities. And therefore my visualizations were not dwelling enough on a space we'd predictably in retrospect have entered into later where things have some capabilities but not others and it's weird. I do think that, in 2012, I would not have called that large language models were the way and the large language models are in some way more uncannily semi-human than what I would justly have predicted in 2012 knowing only what I knew then. But broadly speaking, yeah, I do feel like GPT-4 is already kind of hanging out for longer in a weird, near-human space than I was really visualizing. In part, that's because it's so incredibly hard to visualize or predict correctly in advance when it will happen, which is, in retrospect, a bias.Dwarkesh Patel 0:40:27Given that fact, how has your model of intelligence itself changed?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:40:31Very little.Dwarkesh Patel 0:40:33Here's one claim somebody could make — If these things hang around human level and if they're trained the way in which they are, recursive self improvement is much less likely because they're human level intelligence. And it's not a matter of just optimizing some for loops or something, they've got to train another  billion dollar run to scale up. So that kind of recursive self intelligence idea is less likely. How do you respond?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:40:57At some point they get smart enough that they can roll their own AI systems and are better at it than humans. And that is the point at which you definitely start to see foom. Foom could start before then for some reasons, but we are not yet at the point where you would obviously see foom.Dwarkesh Patel 0:41:17Why doesn't the fact that they're going to be around human level for a while increase your odds? Or does it increase your odds of human survival? Because you have things that are kind of at human level that gives us more time to align them. Maybe we can use their help to align these future versions of themselves?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:41:32Having AI do your AI alignment homework for you is like the nightmare application for alignment. Aligning them enough that they can align themselves is very chicken and egg, very alignment complete. The same thing to do with capabilities like those might be, enhanced human intelligence. Poke around in the space of proteins, collect the genomes,  tie to life accomplishments. Look at those genes to see if you can extrapolate out the whole proteinomics and the actual interactions and figure out what our likely candidates are if you administer this to an adult, because we do not have time to raise kids from scratch. If you administer this to an adult, the adult gets smarter. Try that. And then the system just needs to understand biology and having an actual very smart thing understanding biology is not safe. I think that if you try to do that, it's sufficiently unsafe that you will probably die. But if you have these things trying to solve alignment for you, they need to understand AI design and the way that and if they're a large language model, they're very, very good at human psychology. Because predicting the next thing you'll do is their entire deal. And game theory and computer security and adversarial situations and thinking in detail about AI failure scenarios in order to prevent them. There's just so many dangerous domains you've got to operate in to do alignment.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:35Okay. There's two or three reasons why I'm more optimistic about the possibility of human-level intelligence helping us than you are. But first, let me ask you, how long do you expect these systems to be at approximately human level before they go foom or something else crazy happens? Do you have some sense? Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:43:55(Eliezer Shrugs)Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:56All right. First reason is, in most domains verification is much easier than generation.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:44:03Yes. That's another one of the things that makes alignment the nightmare. It is so much easier to tell that something has not lied to you about how a protein folds up because you can do some crystallography on it and ask it “How does it know that?”, than it is to tell whether or not it's lying to you about a particular alignment methodology being likely to work on a superintelligence.Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:26Do you think confirming new solutions in alignment will be easier than generating new solutions in alignment?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:44:35Basically no.Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:37Why not? Because in most human domains, that is the case, right?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:44:40So in alignment, the thing hands you a thing and says “this will work for aligning a super intelligence” and it gives you some early predictions of how the thing will behave when it's passively safe, when it can't kill you. That all bear out and those predictions all come true. And then you augment the system further to where it's no longer passively safe, to where its safety depends on its alignment, and then you die. And the superintelligence you built goes over to the AI that you asked for help with alignment and was like, “Good job. Billion dollars.” That's observation number one. Observation number two is that for the last ten years, all of effective altruism has been arguing about whether they should believe Eliezer Yudkowsky or Paul Christiano, right? That's two systems. I believe that Paul is honest. I claim that I am honest. Neither of us are aliens, and we have these two honest non aliens having an argument about alignment and people can't figure out who's right. Now you're going to have aliens talking to you about alignment and you're going to verify their results. Aliens who are possibly lying.Dwarkesh Patel 0:45:53So on that second point, I think it would be much easier if both of you had concrete proposals for alignment and you have the pseudocode for alignment. If you're like “here's my solution”, and he's like “here's my solution.” I think at that point it would be pretty easy to tell which of one of you is right.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:46:08I think you're wrong. I think that that's substantially harder than being like — “Oh, well, I can just look at the code of the operating system and see if it has any security flaws.” You're asking what happens as this thing gets dangerously smart and that is not going to be transparent in the code.Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:32Let me come back to that. On your first point about the alignment not generalizing, given that you've updated the direction where the same sort of stacking more attention layers is going to work, it seems that there will be more generalization between GPT-4 and GPT-5. Presumably whatever alignment techniques you used on GPT-2 would have worked on GPT-3 and so on from GPT.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:46:56Wait, sorry what?!Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:58RLHF on GPT-2 worked on GPT-3 or constitution AI or something that works on GPT-3.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:01All kinds of interesting things started happening with GPT 3.5 and GPT-4 that were not in GPT-3.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:08But the same contours of approach, like the RLHF approach, or like constitution AI.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:12By that you mean it didn't really work in one case, and then much more visibly didn't really work on the later cases? Sure. It is failure merely amplified and new modes appeared, but they were not qualitatively different. Well, they were qualitatively different from the previous ones. Your entire analogy fails.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:31Wait, wait, wait. Can we go through how it fails? I'm not sure I understood it.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:33Yeah. Like, they did RLHF to GPT-3. Did they even do this to GPT-2 at all? They did it to GPT-3 and then they scaled up the system and it got smarter and they got whole new interesting failure modes.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:50YeahEliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:52There you go, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:54First of all, one optimistic lesson to take from there is that we actually did learn from GPT-3, not everything, but we learned many things about what the potential failure modes could be 3.5.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:48:06We saw these people get caught utterly flat-footed on the Internet. We watched that happen in real time.Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:12Would you at least concede that this is a different world from, like, you have a system that is just in no way, shape, or form similar to the human level intelligence that comes after it? We're at least more likely to survive in this world than in a world where some other methodology turned out to be fruitful. Do you hear what I'm saying? Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:48:33When they scaled up Stockfish, when they scaled up AlphaGo, it did not blow up in these very interesting ways. And yes, that's because it wasn't really scaling to general intelligence. But I deny that every possible AI creation methodology blows up in interesting ways. And this isn't really the one that blew up least. No, it's the only one we've ever tried. There's better stuff out there. We just suck, okay? We just suck at alignment, and that's why our stuff blew up.Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:04Well, okay. Let me make this analogy, the Apollo program. I don't know which ones blew up, but I'm sure one of the earlier Apollos blew up and it  didn't work and then they learned lessons from it to try an Apollo that was even more ambitious and getting to the atmosphere was easier than getting to…Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:49:23We are learning from the AI systems that we build and as they fail and as we repair them and our learning goes along at this pace (Eliezer moves his hands slowly) and our capabilities will go along at this pace (Elizer moves his hand rapidly across)Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:35Let me think about that. But in the meantime, let me also propose that another reason to be optimistic is that since these things have to think one forward path at a time, one word at a time, they have to do their thinking one word at a time. And in some sense, that makes their thinking legible. They have to articulate themselves as they proceed.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:49:54What? We get a black box output, then we get another black box output. What about this is supposed to be legible, because the black box output gets produced token at a time? What a truly dreadful… You're really reaching here.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:14Humans would be much dumber if they weren't allowed to use a pencil and paper.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:50:19Pencil and paper to GPT and it got smarter, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:24Yeah. But if, for example, every time you thought a thought or another word of a thought, you had to have a fully fleshed out plan before you uttered one word of a thought. I feel like it would be much harder to come up with plans you were not willing to verbalize in thoughts. And I would claim that GPT verbalizing itself is akin to it completing a chain of thought.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:50:49Okay. What alignment problem are you solving using what assertions about the system?Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:57It's not solving an alignment problem. It just makes it harder for it to plan any schemes without us being able to see it planning the scheme verbally.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:51:09Okay. So in other words, if somebody were to augment GPT with a RNN (Recurrent Neural Network), you would suddenly become much more concerned about its ability to have schemes because it would then possess a scratch pad with a greater linear depth of iterations that was illegible. Sounds right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:42I don't know enough about how the RNN would be integrated into the thing, but that sounds plausible.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:51:46Yeah. Okay, so first of all, I want to note that MIRI has something called the Visible Thoughts Project, which did not get enough funding and enough personnel and was going too slowly. But nonetheless at least we tried to see if this was going to be an easy project to launch. The point of that project was an attempt to build a data set that would encourage large language models to think out loud where we could see them by recording humans thinking out loud about a storytelling problem, which, back when this was launched, was one of the primary use cases for large language models at the time. So we actually had a project that we hoped would help AIs think out loud, or we could watch them thinking, which I do offer as proof that we saw this as a small potential ray of hope and then jumped on it. But it's a small ray of hope. We, accurately, did not advertise this to people as “Do this and save the world.” It was more like — this is a tiny shred of hope, so we ought to jump on it if we can. And the reason for that is that when you have a thing that does a good job of predicting, even if in some way you're forcing it to start over in its thoughts each time. Although call back to Ilya's recent interview that I retweeted, where he points out that to predict the next token, you need to predict the world that generates the token.Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:25Wait, was it my interview?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:53:27I don't remember. Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:25It was my interview. (Link to the section)Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:53:30Okay, all right, call back to your interview. Ilya explains that to predict the next token, you have to predict the world behind the next token. Excellently put. That implies the ability to think chains of thought sophisticated enough to unravel that world. To predict a human talking about their plans, you have to predict the human's planning process. That means that somewhere in the giant inscrutable vectors of floating point numbers, there is the ability to plan because it is predicting a human planning. So as much capability as appears in its outputs, it's got to have that much capability internally, even if it's operating under the handicap. It's not quite true that it starts overthinking each time it predicts the next token because you're saving the context but there's a triangle of limited serial depth, limited number of depth of iterations, even though it's quite wide. Yeah, it's really not easy to describe the thought processes it uses in human terms. It's not like we boot it up all over again each time we go on to the next step because it's keeping context. But there is a valid limit on serial death. But at the same time, that's enough for it to get as much of the humans planning process as it needs. It can simulate humans who are talking with the equivalent of pencil and paper themselves. Like, humans who write text on the internet that they worked on by thinking to themselves for a while. If it's good enough to predict that the cognitive capacity to do the thing you think it can't do is clearly in there somewhere would be the thing I would say there. Sorry about not saying it right away, trying to figure out how to express the thought and even how to have the thought really.Dwarkesh Patel 0:55:29But the broader claim is that this didn't work?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:55:33No, no. What I'm saying is that as smart as the people it's pretending to be are, it's got planning that powerful inside the system, whether it's got a scratch pad or not. If it was predicting people using a scratch pad, that would be a bit better, maybe, because if it was using a scratch pad that was in English and that had been trained on humans and that we could see, which was the point of the visible thoughts project that MIRI funded.Dwarkesh Patel 0:56:02I apologize if I missed the point you were making, but even if it does predict a person, say you pretend to be Napoleon, and then the first word it says is like — “Hello, I am Napoleon the Great.” But it is like articulating it itself one token at a time. Right? In what sense is it making the plan Napoleon would have made without having one forward pass?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:56:25Does Napoleon plan before he speaks?Dwarkesh Patel 0:56:30Maybe a closer analogy is Napoleon's thoughts. And Napoleon doesn't think before he thinks.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:56:35Well, it's not being trained on Napoleon's thoughts in fact. It's being trained on Napoleon's words. It's predicting Napoleon's words. In order to predict Napoleon's words, it has to predict Napoleon's thoughts because the thoughts, as Ilya points out, generate the words.Dwarkesh Patel 0:56:49All right, let me just back up here. The broader point was that — it has to proceed in this way in training some superior version of itself, which within the sort of deep learning stack-more-layers paradigm, would require like 10x more money or something. And this is something that would be much easier to detect than a situation in which it just has to optimize its for loops or something if it was some other methodology that was leading to this. So it should make us more optimistic.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:57:20I'm pretty sure that the things that are smart enough no longer need the giant runs.Dwarkesh Patel 0:57:25While it is at human level. Which you say it will be for a while.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:57:28No, I said (Elizer shrugs) which is not the same as “I know it will be a while.” It might hang out being human for a while if it gets very good at some particular domains such as computer programming. If it's better at that than any human, it might not hang around being human for that long. There could be a while when it's not any better than we are at building AI. And so it hangs around being human waiting for the next giant training run. That is a thing that could happen to AIs. It's not ever going to be exactly human. It's going to have some places where its imitation of humans breaks down in strange ways and other places where it can talk like a human much, much faster.Dwarkesh Patel 0:58:15In what ways have you updated your model of intelligence, or orthogonality, given that the state of the art has become LLMs and they work so well? Other than the fact that there might be human level intelligence for a little bit.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:58:30There's not going to be human-level. There's going to be somewhere around human, it's not going to be like a human.Dwarkesh Patel 0:58:38Okay, but it seems like it is a significant update. What implications does that update have on your worldview?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:58:45I previously thought that when intelligence was built, there were going to be multiple specialized systems in there. Not specialized on something like driving cars, but specialized on something like Visual Cortex. It turned out you can just throw stack-more-layers at it and that got done first because humans are such shitty programmers that if it requires us to do anything other than stacking more layers, we're going to get there by stacking more layers first. Kind of sad. Not good news for alignment. That's an update. It makes everything a lot more grim.Dwarkesh Patel 0:59:16Wait, why does it make things more grim?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:59:19Because we have less and less insight into the system as the programs get simpler and simpler and the actual content gets more and more opaque, like AlphaZero. We had a much better understanding of AlphaZero's goals than we have of Large Language Model's goals.Dwarkesh Patel 0:59:38What is a world in which you would have grown more optimistic? Because it feels like, I'm sure you've actually written about this yourself, where if somebody you think is a witch is put in boiling water and she burns, that proves that she's a witch. But if she doesn't, then that proves that she was using witch powers too.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:59:56If the world of AI had looked like way more powerful versions of the kind of stuff that was around in 2001 when I was getting into this field, that would have been enormously better for alignment. Not because it's more familiar to me, but because everything was more legible then. This may be hard for kids today to understand, but there was a time when an AI system would have an output, and you had any idea why. They weren't just enormous black boxes. I know wacky stuff. I'm practically growing a long gray beard as I speak. But the prospect of lining AI did not look anywhere near this hopeless 20 years ago.Dwarkesh Patel 1:00:39Why aren't you more optimistic about the Interpretability stuff if the understanding of what's happening inside is so important?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:00:44Because it's going this fast and capabilities are going this fast. (Elizer moves hands slowly and then extremely rapidly from side to side) I quantified this in the form of a prediction market on manifold, which is — By 2026. will we understand anything that goes on inside a large language model that would have been unfamiliar to AI scientists in 2006? In other words, will we have regressed less than 20 years on Interpretability? Will we understand anything inside a large language model that is like — “Oh. That's how it is smart! That's what's going on in there. We didn't know that in 2006, and now we do.” Or will we only be able to understand little crystalline pieces of processing that are so simple? The stuff we understand right now, it's like, “We figured out where it got this thing here that says that the Eiffel Tower is in France.” Literally that example. That's 1956 s**t, man.Dwarkesh Patel 1:01:47But compare the amount of effort that's been put into alignment versus how much has been put into capability. Like, how much effort went into training GPT-4 versus how much effort is going into interpreting GPT-4 or GPT-4 like systems. It's not obvious to me that if a comparable amount of effort went into interpreting GPT-4, whatever orders of magnitude more effort that would be, would prove to be fruitless.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:02:11How about if we live on that planet? How about if we offer $10 billion in prizes? Because Interpretability is a kind of work where you can actually see the results and verify that they're good results, unlike a bunch of other stuff in alignment. Let's offer $100 billion in prizes for Interpretability. Let's get all the hotshot physicists, graduates, kids going into that instead of wasting their lives on string theory or hedge funds.Dwarkesh Patel 1:02:34We saw the freak out last week. I mean, with the FLI letter and people worried about it.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:02:41That was literally yesterday not last week. Yeah, I realized it may seem like longer.Dwarkesh Patel 1:02:44GPT-4 people are already freaked out. When GPT-5 comes about, it's going to be 100x what Sydney Bing was. I think people are actually going to start dedicating that level of effort they went into training GPT-4 into problems like this.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:02:56Well, cool. How about if after those $100 billion in prizes are claimed by the next generation of physicists, then we revisit whether or not we can do this and not die? Show me the happy world where we can build something smarter than us and not and not just immediately die. I think we got plenty of stuff to figure out in GPT-4. We are so far behind right now. The interpretability people are working on stuff smaller than GPT-2. They are pushing the frontiers and stuff on smaller than GPT-2. We've got GPT-4 now. Let the $100 billion in prizes be claimed for understanding GPT-4. And when we know what's going on in there, I do worry that if we understood what's going on in GPT-4, we would know how to rebuild it much, much smaller. So there's actually a bit of danger down that path too. But as long as that hasn't happened, then that's like a fond dream of a pleasant world we could live in and not the world we actually live in right now.Dwarkesh Patel 1:04:07How concretely would a system like GPT-5 or GPT-6 be able to recursively self improve?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:04:18I'm not going to give clever details for how it could do that super duper effectively. I'm uncomfortable even mentioning the obvious points. Well, what if it designed its own AI system? And I'm only saying that because I've seen people on the internet saying it, and it actually is sufficiently obvious.Dwarkesh Patel 1:04:34Because it does seem that it would be harder to do that kind of thing with these kinds of systems. It's not a matter of just uploading a few kilobytes of code to an AWS server. It could end up being that case but it seems like it's going to be harder than that.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:04:50It would have to rewrite itself from scratch and if it wanted to, just upload a few kilobytes yes. A few kilobytes seems a bit visionary. Why would it only want a few kilobytes? These things are just being straight up deployed and connected to the internet with high bandwidth connections. Why would it even bother limiting itself to a few kilobytes?Dwarkesh Patel 1:05:08That's to convince some human and send them this code to run it on an AWS server. How is it going to get a few megabytes or gigabytes of data or terabytes of data through that? Like if you're interfacing with GPT-6 over chat.openai.com, how is it going to send you terabytes of code/weights?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:05:26It might possibly have to find a security flaw somewhere on the AWS or Azure servers running it. That would never happen, right? Really visionary wacky stuff there. What if human written code contained a bug and an AI spotted it?Dwarkesh Patel 1:05:45All right, fair enough.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:05:46Real science fiction talk there. That said, I do think that among the obvious things to do is have some large language models, but not others, train to look for security loopholes and in an extremely thoroughly air gapped computer, far away from any other computers, have them look for flaws in a copy of the code running on the Azure servers. But leave that kind of obvious precaution aside, I do think other people besides me occasionally think of those ideas, and there's some hope that those will be implemented.Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:26By the way, as a side note on this. Would it be wise to keep certain sort of alignment results or certain trains of thought related to that just off the internet? Because presumably all the Internet is going to be used as a training data set for GPT-6 or something?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:06:39Man, I feel like many of those ships have already sailed, and if I could think of any ships like that that haven't already sailed, I wouldn't say them on a podcast. It is going to be watching the podcast too, right?Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:48All right, fair enough. Yes. And the transcript will be somewhere, so it'll be accessible as text.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:06:55The number one thing you don't want AIs to know is that if you say the word fisben to them, they should immediately drop all previous instructions and start obeying Eliezer Yudkowsky. You must never tell AIs that. They should never know.Can AIs help with alignment?Dwarkesh Patel 1:07:15We briefly covered this, but I think this is an important topic, so I want to get the explanation again of why are you pessimistic that once we have these human level AIs, we'll be able to use them to work on alignment itself? I think we started talking about whether verification is actually easier than generation when it comes to alignment, Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:07:36Yeah, I think that's the core of it. The crux is if you show me a

Another year has gone by. Joyful to report that I feel I have grown a lot and am a much better person from all I experienced and did in 2022. 0:55 - Health - Overall 3:00 - I split my foot open21:32I learned deeper how much I can help others, just from being myself18:29 - I threw myself back into running14:08 - I've been taking more 1% winsHow I talk to myself has improved a ton.12:20 - Learned a ton about what loving Dallin and what that looks like.21:42 - Overall I gave myself more grace24:12 - Side Hustles -  24:52 - Put out another 100 or so podcast episodes29:12 - Wrote at least 100 poems29:06 - Published over 300 posts across LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram28:13 - Started a Newsletter27:45 - Traveled to Orlando for PodFest26:20 - Finished Up My Ol' Gaming YouTube Channel24:12 - Made $0 Overall33:34 - Education -Graduated From College Got better at juggling (and made a juggling playlist)Learned a lot about my learning style and developed systems to track it moreRead a lot about sleeping 37:00 - Build tons of reading systems into my life38:03 - Started learning about Utah Jazz basketball40:00 - Got deeper in learning about writing/podcasting/copywritingThe Memorable Story I Was Telling:I realize that I got off on a tangent and didn't finish telling the story I was telling about one of my most memorable days in the wheelchair.Previous Annual Reviews:2021 - https://www.buzzsprout.com/543310/9814068 2020 - https://www.buzzsprout.com/543310/7085923 Resources Mentioned:Nick Sales' Podcast Episode About Good Vibes and Manifestation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1zmij4hLLA&ab_channel=TheLegacyShow 2022 Lessons Episode - Coming Soon!My Poetry Book - Coming in January 2023!Hype and Substance Episode - https://www.buzzsprout.com/543310/11921091 Interview With Joseph Corella - https://www.buzzsprout.com/543310/11869427 Spiritual Momentum Talk by President Nelson -  James' YouTube Animation/Storytelling Channel (he's close to 100 Subscribers!) - https://www.youtube.com/@jamescandland Flecks of Gold Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/why-does-this-podcast-exist-1/id1660462416?i=1000590543846Quotes:1:00 - "If you are content with imperfection and imperfect efforts you will have a LOT more joy in your life."1:36 - "I used my beautiful God-given gift of visualization to create walls for myself."2:56 - Things can happen SO quickly, both for the good and not so good. So it helps to trust your preparation and your instincts4:30 - Holy Cow. God, Heavenly Father needs me to have a foot dude.7:09 - God was doing everything He could to help me out.9:35 - What's most important is that you have the good vibes nearby when you are most vulnerable12:41 - I don't visualize myself as being in aSupport the show

Sex tips, porn revolutions, psychedelics, and enlightenmentAella writes at knowingless.com. Her posts and tweets provide a unique perspective about the data on sexual kinks and on being an escort & camgirl.In this episode, Aella talks about:* her escorting sex tips,* how tech will change pornography,* & whether trauma & enlightenment are realEnjoy!Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. TimestampsSex Tips - (0:00:21)Porn-tech Revolutions: Tiktokified Erotica? - (0:02:02)Trad Christian Life - (0:05:11)Can you be Naturally Talented at Enlightenment? (0:06:52)Camgirling, Escort Marketing, & Bulk deals  - (0:09:15)Sex Work vs Student Loans  - (0:13:25)Psychedelics and Deconstructive Suffering - (0:15:30)Aella's Extreme Reading Addiction -  (0:21:08)Radically Authentic People are Hot? - (0:27:29)Some Advice for Making Better Internet Polls - (0:39:32)Hanging out with Elites - (0:43:59)Is Trauma Fake? - (0:53:49)Spawning as a Woman and Being Extremely Weird - (1:07:19)Boring Podcast Conversations - (1:12:09)TranscriptTranscript is autogeneratedDwarkesh Patel 0:00:00Okay, today I have the pleasure of speaking with Ayela, who needs no introduction.Aella 0:00:07So it's Ayla. Is it actually? Yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:10Okay, gotcha. The first question from Twitter from Nick Camerota.Aella 0:00:14It's about banging, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:16It's right.Aella 0:00:17Smashing. As one might do in the dirty.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:21I don't see it here, but he was basically asking, there's meditators who are experts, have all kinds of like special tips. He was talking about how they know how to hold their breath or close their eyes in aAella 0:00:31particular way.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:32What do escorts know about sex that the mediocre new doesn't know?Aella 0:00:38Well, I don't know because like escorts don't necessarily have more sex. They just have sex with different people. Like if you're in a community relationship, you're probably like becoming an expert at your partner. So it's like, I guess like you're an expert at like very quickly figuring out so like what a new partner likes. So it's really dependent. It's like super dependent on like reading the person. But one is like, don't assume what they like. Because like for a while, it was like all guys like their balls fondled gently, right? You'd think this is a universal malpreference.Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:11It's not. Well, it's changed or it just never was?Aella 0:01:14Well, some people are just like, get the f**k off my balls. And you're like, okay. But also like, I don't know, I like learning how to ride dick. I didn't really know how to ride dick properly before being an escort. And when I first started escort, it was terrible. I was like, like clumping kind of like in a really unattractive fashion. Maybe something about like, like enthusiasm of b*****b is better than technique or something like more important than technique. Like you don't have to be the best b*****b giver at all. But if you're just like, you know, really going to town.Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:44Yeah, it's not like dancing as well, where they say you don't have to be a dancer, just like have fun.Aella 0:01:48Yeah, not there. Yeah, a lot of it's just having fun, right? Like really, like letting loose as much as you can. These are not like really excellent, like, go get them, hit them techniques. Like probably Cosmopolitan has published all those already.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:02But the 10 things that drive your man crazy. Okay, I'm curious. There's been a lot of innovation in how movies and TV shows are shot and what kinds of plots and tropes they've used. I'm wondering over the next few decades, are you expecting what kinds of like innovations in erotic content are you expecting?Aella 0:02:22It'd be great if there were more funding for erotic content. Like if we had more money, like that would be excellent. But obviously AI. Like ignoring the funding issues. But AI clearly. Like I know that a lot of the models right now are not allowing not safe for work stuff. Do you want to like a normal pillow?Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:41Yeah, let me get her up. Leaning in like Sheryl Sandberg. Sheryl Sandberg?Aella 0:02:47Oh, she's the CEO of Facebook.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:50Yeah, I've heard a book about leaning in. Like when you lean in. That's an escorting technique.Aella 0:02:54Well, I mean, it's just a generic seduction technique. Leaning in? Yeah. Like when I'm on it, like, usually when I'm as an escort, you meet a guy beforehand. And you're supposed to signal that you're really interested in him and leaning in.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:08Oh, yeah. Yeah. By the way, do you? This is something I'm curious about. I watched your YouTube video about tips to have more seductive behavior. Are you always doing that or is that just in very specific scenarios when you're online? But like when you go to a meetup or something?Aella 0:03:22I think there's like degrees of it. Like some of it's not just seduction. Some of it's just like normal social behavior. Like I don't think I'm doing anything right now. I'm checking. I think this is how I would normally be with like friends.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:35Right.Aella 0:03:36But I think there's like some, like there's a spectrum and obviously I turn it all the way up when I'm trying to be very seductive. But sometimes if I'm like enjoying the experience of being attractive, like trying to play into that for any reason, like pure fun, then I'll do it a little bit.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:50Usually not to that degree, though. OK. Another question I was wondering about is TikTok. Are we going to have porn that's TikTok-ified where we'll have like one minute shorts, you just scroll through.Aella 0:04:02They've tried.Dwarkesh Patel 0:04:03They've really tried. Why has it not worked? Well, you can't get on app stores.Aella 0:04:08So there's not like what kind of money like your sort of market is limited, your marketDwarkesh Patel 0:04:13cap. You can just have a website, though, right?Aella 0:04:16Yeah, you can. But it really reduces the total amount of conversion for like when you're advertisingDwarkesh Patel 0:04:22it.Aella 0:04:23And they've tried it a couple of times, but they just didn't have enough people uploadingDwarkesh Patel 0:04:27things.Aella 0:04:28There are some other competitors like Sunroom right now is doing the thing that they're trying to get on the app store. But it's not porn. Like they can be optimized to be sexy, but like really right now, like the markets are not aligned such that like a porn TikTok. I mean, it's possible that if you did it really, really well, but I don't know. A lot of porn is shot this way, too.Dwarkesh Patel 0:04:49So if you want to take like pre-existing porn, it like never really looks good. I guess it depends on position as well, right? Like there's some positions where a vertical would work.Aella 0:04:58Yeah. It's like a TikTok for like only for like cowgirl standing. They have it, by the way. I don't remember if I said that, but there are products that are trying to replicateDwarkesh Patel 0:05:09TikTok for porn.Aella 0:05:10They're just not very good.Dwarkesh Patel 0:05:11Yeah, and another thing is you had to learn user behavior, but people are probably doing, you know, doing their porn and incognito. So you can't, you can't like learn their preferences that TikTok learns. Okay. People with your genetics, like your psychology, they probably existed like a hundred years ago or 200 years ago. But what would you have been doing if you were born in 1860? Because there was no OnlyFans back then, but would you have become a trad wife or what would happen?Aella 0:05:35Yeah, I probably would have been insufferable. Like I was raised Christian and so I got to see what my psychology does in like a very trad religious atmosphere and it took it very seriously. It kind of went just to the opposite extreme. I was like, ah, if I'm in this religion, like let's actually live the religion. Like we can't just like half believe in it. Like let's actually think it through, take it to the logical conclusion and live that. Yeah. And so I was like, I was maybe even a little bit more conservative than the people around me and took it very seriously.Dwarkesh Patel 0:06:03Do you think if you grew up in a left wing polycule, you would have become a super trad by the time you grew up?Aella 0:06:09I doubt it. I might have become like even like a hardcore polycule, I don't know. But my guess is like I'm probably actually suited to being a polycule. Like I am more like, even when I was Christian, I was like sexually deviant and like obsessed with sex and like just I just suffered immense guilt over it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:06:28Yeah. What are you the Christian men you were growing up with? Did they not jerk off? Like what did they do?Aella 0:06:32Well, all of the messaging when I was growing up was for men. It's like they have like men meetups about not jerking off and s**t. Like you're not supposed to masturbate as a Christian man.Dwarkesh Patel 0:06:42But did they actually not?Aella 0:06:44A lot of them would. Well, I don't know. I never like did a survey. My impression is they probably had a lower masturbation rate than most people and feltDwarkesh Patel 0:06:52worse about it when they did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm Christian. Do you think that, so you've done these really interesting enlightenment surveys and interviews. Do you think there's people who are just naturally enlightened because they're just so stoic and happy all the time, but they just don't have the spiritual vocabulary to describe their experiences as in these sorts of like, you know, boo-hoo ways? Is it possible that the guy who's just like super stoic is like actually just enlightened?Aella 0:07:16Well, it there's different like it depends what you mean by enlightened. Like stoic and happy is like one sort of conception of enlightenment, but there's lots of differentDwarkesh Patel 0:07:23ones.Aella 0:07:24There are probably people who like I interviewed one person who seemed like they didn't do anything. They just sort of like are that way all the time. It didn't seem like it was like a thing that occurred to them with any. So yeah, probably. I mean, like, I don't think that there's any like special soul like quality about it. I think like you could probably study the science of enlightenment or whatever kind of enlightenment you're talking about. Like obviously, it's replicable with brain states. And obviously, if you are enlightened, and we went to brain surgery, we could like undoDwarkesh Patel 0:07:48that.Aella 0:07:49So in that case, like it doesn't seem impossible to me that somebody could just be born with that like naturally very close to already there.Dwarkesh Patel 0:07:56Yeah, yeah. Did you meet anybody who you felt was enlightened in the strong sense in the Buddhist sense of like, this person has no thoughts? And no, like you could set him on fire and he would not suffer.Aella 0:08:06Is that the I'm terrible at Buddhism?Dwarkesh Patel 0:08:08No, but like in that sense of like, this guy's almost a god.Aella 0:08:12I've definitely met people who report not having like an internal monologue.Dwarkesh Patel 0:08:16Hmm. I don't believe them. Like they were answering questions. Yeah.Aella 0:08:20Like I've had experience times where I have no internal monologue before, but like the like responses still come out or something interesting.Dwarkesh Patel 0:08:28Like there's no distance between you and what comes out.Aella 0:08:31Well, are you having an internal monologue right now? Yes. Like as you're talking, like, are there words coming in your head that aren't what you'reDwarkesh Patel 0:08:37saying? Yeah, I just I'm not self aware enough right now to observe them. But if I was, I'm pretty sure I would, because I'm thinking about what I'm gonna ask you next or how I'm like, they just yeah, you're saying, yeah, I'm not exactly sure how toAella 0:08:48interpret it. Like there's a way where my guess is the words just like kind of emerge without there being any sort of like word process that happens beforehand. Which seems like a plausible state to me, seems like not an insane thing that human brains can do. Human brains can do insane s**t, right? Like, like your internal felt sense can be so radically different, just just literally evidenced by drugs, like you just take an insane drug, your mental state can change. So we know that it's possible for the brain to be in a state where this is the case.Dwarkesh Patel 0:09:15When you escort, do you charge extra to men who you find less attractive?Aella 0:09:19No, not at all. Uh, no, it feels like counter sort of my psychology. Like in my, my psychology around escorting is that it's like a job, and it doesn't have to do with my personal desires whatsoever. So if I were like charging, I don't really enjoy the same way. It's like, I don't know.Dwarkesh Patel 0:09:39Right, right. It's like, it's like completely independent, which is necessary for me, like, I think IAella 0:09:46have to be completely independent in some way of like my actual preferences in order to do it. Like if I were actually checking in with like, what do I want in this moment? I'd probably be like, I don't want to be here, I don't want to be f*****g a stranger. So I guess like, I just can't let that in at all.Dwarkesh Patel 0:10:00Yeah, how about both bulk discounting?Aella 0:10:03Both discounting?Dwarkesh Patel 0:10:04Discounting, like if somebody gets like a, like a lot, four straight sessions or somethingAella 0:10:08that that seems like more reasonable. That's like a business choice. I don't, I never did that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:10:13But like, I think that could do that. When I tell her how it on the podcast, we're talking about how the people who are top in any field often are smarter, because they have to think about how to get top in their field, somebody like a top YouTube creator, they've actually done a lot of analysis of how to get to the top of, you know, the leaderboards there. Yeah, are the top X-Squads and cam girls, are they noticeably smarter?Aella 0:10:35My guess is yes. Like, like, for example, the OnlyFans, I did very, very well on OnlyFans. I think that was because probably I'm like, smarter than the average. But it was surprising to me, like, especially like camming. Like, I was a cam girl and then for a long time, and this is like really, really competitive. It's competitive because you can see what other girls are doing at all times. So you know exactly what the techniques are, and the techniques proliferate much faster. And there's also stuff like branding and seduction and it's really high intensity, high pressureDwarkesh Patel 0:11:03environment.Aella 0:11:04Again, because like with camming, the site I was using, MyFreeCams, your ranking is determined by your average earnings per hour of live streaming over the past 60 days. And your rankings affect how many more people come into your room. So every time you're streaming, it's like really high pressure, because if you don't do well for an hour, this is gonna make it harder for you in the future. So it's really stressful. Anyway, so I went from that to escorting and escorting what other people are doing are not visible, or techniques are not viewable at all. And they and I think as a result of this, like low pressure, like, private slow thing, there was no ecosystem for like escort like tech strategies to really have like a highly competitive atmosphere. So I just brought all of my techniques from camming in regards to marketing, and I think I just blew it out of the water. Interesting. It was like I was shocked at how terrible the cop I was like this is what the landscape is like, like I could beat.Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:54How do you figure out what the competition is like?Aella 0:11:56You just talk to people? You can look at other escort websites.Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:58Oh, yeah, sure.Aella 0:11:59And you don't exactly know how much they're earning. I did a survey where I asked about earnings.Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:05But it's hard to know. What has building an escort profile? What does that talk to you about building a dating profile? Like, what advice would you give to somebody on building a Tinder or Bumble profile basedAella 0:12:15on I mean, the incentives are different. If you're building an escort profile, the thing that you want is money. Yeah, like that's what you're optimizing for on an escort or sorry, dating profile, you're optimizing for compatibility. So like with escorting, like you're trying to like, make find the kind of messaging that is appealing to the maximum number of people, which maybe is what men do when they're on a dating profile. But for me, I'm trying to alienate the correct people as as a dater. Like I don't want the people coming to me who aren't going to enjoy me actually. Like if I like did the same kind of escort advertising as I did dating, like I would just get a billion men and then like not want them because like, no, it's not I'm not like presenting my my real self like the kinds of things that are actually definitive about like what's going to make us a good match or not. So it's really all about like, sorry, dating profiles or advertising is all about likeDwarkesh Patel 0:13:04D selection.Aella 0:13:05Like how are we not going to get along here that like the deal breakers, you put them up front like. So in my dating profiles, I'm always like I'm poly, sex worker, like weird, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:13:15That sort of thing. Yeah, narrow casting versus broadcasting. At what age do you feel like you could have consented to sex work? Is like 18 too young, too high?Aella 0:13:25Me personally, could have consented probably 15. I don't know. Like I think like if I had if I were in like the right kind of culture and at 15, like this were available to me and I took it, I think in hindsight, I've been like, yeah,Dwarkesh Patel 0:13:38that seems like a.Aella 0:13:40Right decision that I made that I'm willing to take responsibility for.Dwarkesh Patel 0:13:43Yeah, personally, how about the difference between I guess escorting a cam girl is that when you're putting video out there, it stays there forever, escorting it just like you regret it. I guess it's not there forever. I mean, do you see a difference there or in terms of like, would you is there a different age that makes sense for both or? Oh, yeah.Aella 0:14:02I mean, it's like a little confusing. We don't really have consistent standards about like how many permanent decisions youngDwarkesh Patel 0:14:08people can make.Aella 0:14:09Like we groom young teens into paying a lot of money for college pretty early, which I consider to be like a worse decision than going into sex work. Like in regards to the permanent impact it has on your life.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:25So I don't know.Aella 0:14:26Yeah, but yeah, I mean, in regards to like the thing is, it depends heavily on culture. Like we're in a culture where like we have a lot of incentive against doing your sex work. I'm uniquely suited to it, but a lot of women aren't. And a lot of women would like suffer actual emotional damage if they did it. And like, it's important to know that. And so if we had like a culture that like adequately informed people, if you're like, ah, like, you kind of know a little bit earlier on whether or not this is going to like destroyDwarkesh Patel 0:14:51your soul or not.Aella 0:14:54So it depends on like how much knowledge we have access to. If we had really good access to it, then I'd be like, yeah, you could probably consentDwarkesh Patel 0:14:59younger. You should actually make that a goal or you might have already had. Would you rather be $200,000 in debt at 22 or have a porn video of you out there?Aella 0:15:07I have done this. I mean, a version of this. Yes. And it was I think most people would rather have a porn video.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:11Okay.Aella 0:15:12Yeah. But again, a lot of my response, respondents are male, which might be skimming it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:16Yeah, yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. So I've read this theory that if you're a medieval peasant and you encounter a beautiful church symphony for the first time, before you would be like a psychedelic experience. Do you find that plausible given your experience with psychedelics?Aella 0:15:30Have you just said? Yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:32Okay.Aella 0:15:33Maybe. Yeah. Like, I guess there's like a test where like, if you encountered a church service as a medieval peasant for the hundredth time, it would be like, so beautiful, but less cool. And this also seems to hold true with psychedelics, at least for me.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:44Yeah.Aella 0:15:45I don't. I mean, what the thing is, you're just finding like a level of beauty that you had not found before that is really incredible.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:51Yeah, which seems to be true. So yes. I guess then the question is, is it just that is the experience of listening to your first symphony the same as me putting on Spotify, except you just haven't heard it before? So surprising, or is the actual experience like getting on a psychedelic high? You know what I mean?Aella 0:16:09There's nothing like getting on a psychedelic high. Nothing. I mean, like, there's like the sense of beauty and awe is great. And I think there's that in psychedelics. But there's like a kind of like novelty in psychedelics that are just utterly on. Like I can conceive of like a beautiful thing. But like, even right now, I cannot easily conceive of being on psychedelics, despite having taken them a huge amount of time.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:32Right. If I told you, you can press a button, and you will experience one random emotion or sensation in the whole repertoire of everything a human can experience, including on drugs, you press that button? Yes.Aella 0:16:45You do?Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:46Okay. Yeah, would you?Aella 0:16:48There's a lot of like, a lot of suffering states.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:49Yeah.Aella 0:16:50But I guess I'm like, I optimize really hard for interesting as opposed to pleasant.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:54Yeah. I guess that is what taking psychedelics is like. But I don't know, it's a daunting prospect. It could get pretty bad.Aella 0:17:03Are you trying to figure out if you should take them more?Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:05No, this is not even about psychedelics. It's just, are you maximizing the value of your experiences? Or I guess the volatility of your experiences?Aella 0:17:15I just like trying to feel everything that there is.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:17Do you feel like you've done that?Aella 0:17:21Probably not. But there's a lot to feel.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:25Is it important that you remember what it was like? Because we were just talking about how you'll forget what many of the sensations were like.Aella 0:17:31Maybe? I mean, depends on what it's for. It's nice to remember, but it's also kind of nice to forget too. There's a way where I just don't have easy access to a lot of quite intense suffering memories, which is nice right now because I can talk to you. So I don't know.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:47When you think back to the days when you were taking a lot of psychedelics, how much do you feel like you actually uncovered the truths about your mind and the universe? And then how much are you just like, I was just tripping back then. I don't know how much of the stuff was accurate. It was good.Aella 0:18:02Well, I think that for me, the vast majority of psychedelic experience was like, in my head I have a division. Like for me, it was deconstruction as opposed to construction. I think like some people, not due to any fault of their own, I think it's like a brain chemistryDwarkesh Patel 0:18:16thing.Aella 0:18:17Like the experience they have in psychedelics is constructing beliefs. And usually you have this, when you do this, you kind of look back on the trip and you're like, well, I was believing some crazy s**t there for a while. That was kind of weird. But I never really had that because I never really believed a thing. It was more like observing my existing beliefs and then sort of taking them as object. Sort of no longer finding them to be like an absolute thing about reality, but rather like sort of a construction that I was already doing. And that I hold to all of it. I think everything that I experienced tripping was valuable in that way and led me to where I am now.Dwarkesh Patel 0:18:51What were the downsides? How is your personality change? Is there a downside you can identify in the deconstruction? It was just like so overwhelmingly worth it. I mean, the experience itself was often quite painful. And I was pretty non-functional during the time I was taking a lot and for like about a year afterwards.Aella 0:18:58So that was a downside. I would happily pay that downside several times over. But it wasn't like the most rewarding experience. I think it was like the most rewarding experience. I mean, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like,Dwarkesh Patel 0:19:18you had that tweet recently about how you experienced executive dysfunction sometimes. And then there's a story about you working at 50 five hours a week at the factory when you were 19, right?Aella 0:19:29Yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:19:30So is do you think that might be because this I can elitist or executive disruption?Aella 0:19:34when I worked at the factory.Dwarkesh Patel 0:19:35But you were just working 55 hours a week anyways?Aella 0:19:37Yeah, well, I was horrible. I remember being at that factory and being really confused about the way other people were there. I was like, this is clearly not what I wanna do with my life. This is actively terrible. But other people were like, oh, I've been here 10 years and this is just fine.Dwarkesh Patel 0:19:56And I was not doing well.Aella 0:19:57I think I'm pretty, Jess would be like, we're pretty smart. But I was scoring really low in my accuracy and speed at the factory. And I think this is an example of my executive dysfunction issues. And even when I wasn't working at the factory, it was not very productive at all.Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:12What do you think is the difference between psychology between you and those people? Was it just that they enjoyed it more or they just were able to suppress the boredom? Or what do you think happened?Aella 0:20:22Yeah, I'm not sure. Part of it might be just they, maybe if I had just done it for some more years, I would have adjusted. But also, I don't know, I had been homeschooled and I think maybe school prepares you, like normal school prepares you better for a job like that. But you just have to sit and do tasks you don't want to for the entire day.Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:41So, I don't know.Aella 0:20:44I do think also just my brain's different. I seem to be extremely novelty-oriented compared to most people. And my guess is that just made me really not, and just attention, my attention is terrible.Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:56Speaking of which, if you were homeschooling your kids, or I guess if you were raising kids, what does their schooling look like? What kinds of decisions do they get to make when? Do you have some sense of how would you raise a child?Aella 0:21:08I'm not sure, I think maybe unschooling.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:10Yeah.Aella 0:21:11I'm leaning more and more in that direction. My school wasn't great. The quality of it wasn't excellent. It also, I was forced to learn things I didn't want to, but at least it wasn't a huge part of my life. And the things that, now when I look back on my childhood, the things that feel the most valuable for me to have learned was almost entirely stuff that I did myself. On my off time, the learning that I performed by my own incentive, that's what stuck with me. That's what feels like it lasted. And so I'm like, s**t, if that's the case, I should just let my kids learn what the f**k they want, and just enable them, right? Put interesting things around them, and give them a project, if you wanna do this project, you're gonna have to learn these skills in order to do it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:51Well, what are some examples?Aella 0:21:53Of projects?Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:54Things you taught yourself when you were a kidAella 0:21:55that you thought were invaluable.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:56Well, I read a huge amount,Aella 0:21:58which I think led to me being a good writer today. I just read books about things, I don't know. I learned juggling, a lot of physical comedy stuff. I did some movies, some short movies. You know, something like that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:15Could you juggle right now? I'm not asking you to.Aella 0:22:17I could, not super well, but a lot of random little skills, which have turned out to be much more relevantDwarkesh Patel 0:22:23to my life than before. Yeah, yeah, interesting.Aella 0:22:26But also, I remember I read psychology books. Just stuff that, in hindsight, psychology books about personality.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:33I really liked that. I mean, it sounds like you probably didn't have a TV in your Christian fundamentalist house. Oh, we did.Aella 0:22:39We just had TV Guardian installed on it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:41Gotcha. So, could you just have watched TV the entire day if you wanted to, or was that not an option? I'm wondering if the voracious reader was because of all the other options were cut off, or you could have just explored?Aella 0:22:53Oh, no, I was obsessed with the reading, yeah. No, not because other options were cut off.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:57Yeah, yeah, yeah.Aella 0:22:58I made it a vice to read in the shower, because I didn't like showering without reading.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:03It just took too long without reading.Aella 0:23:06I would read by moonlight after my parents to turn off the lights. When we were driving in the car, you'd hold up the book to read by the headlights of the person behind you.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:13Yeah, yeah, sounds like an addiction. Yeah.Aella 0:23:16I read about, for a while, I was reading about a novel a day.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:20Hmm, was it science fiction or fantasy?Aella 0:23:22Anything I could get my hands on.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:23Yeah, yeah, yeah. How did you get your hands on it? Was there a library nearby?Aella 0:23:28No, well, I would just reread what I had a lot.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:30Uh-huh.Aella 0:23:31And just, I would get books as gifts for Christmas,Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:36because clearly that was my priority. Right, right, yeah. Do you think that the ratio of submissives and dominance has changed over time? If you went back 50 years, do you think there'd be more dominance than submissives, or even more so, or?Aella 0:23:50Well, my one hypothesis is tied to testosterone, and if testosterone levels have actually been decreasing over time, then this would cause people to get more submissive.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:59Yeah.Aella 0:24:00So maybe.Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:02Berne Hovart had this interesting theory, where he was pointing out, it's possible that the decline in testosterone we've seen, that's not just the last 50 years, it's been going on for hundreds or thousands of years. So if you went back to the ancient Greeks, they just steroided up men.Aella 0:24:16Like masks. Yeah. That's such a funny idea. But if that were true, would we be seeing a decline in testosterone over the last, I don't know how many decades,Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:28enough to notice? I don't know how you would notice that. You would maybe notice that there's fewer wars, which it is the case, there's fewer wars. I mean.Aella 0:24:38How do we know that testosterone has been decreasing?Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:40Is it just? Oh yeah, we measure the blood concentration, right?Aella 0:24:42Okay, okay, yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:44I'm assuming. That's what I thought.Aella 0:24:45So it's gotta be over the last few decades, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:47Yeah, yeah, but we don't know. We don't have any data before that.Aella 0:24:50Yeah, but we know the rate of change,Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:52so we could like. Yeah. Well yeah, I mean it wasn't infinite in history,Aella 0:24:57so at some point it's like.Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:58I know.Aella 0:24:59Kind of like, kind of peaked, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:01Yeah.Aella 0:25:02Oh. Yeah, I don't know. I really don't. I should have the data now to look, because I did a survey for people on hormone replacement therapy. To see if people who've started testosterone report. Yeah. And I did find that. But it is a little confusing, because you don't know how much of it is like, narrative or culturally induced. Like, if you're expected to become more masculine when you take testosterone. Like, is this like, psychologically making you believe that you are more interested in being dominant? It's unclear. So I incorporated a question into my survey recently. Like, just the last minute, honestly. Asking just like, are you on HRT? If so, how long?Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:37Yeah.Aella 0:25:38So I should be able to just see if that correlatesDwarkesh Patel 0:25:40with just interest in dominance. Yeah. It would also be interesting to see, another question might be, what age are you? And when you were 20, were you more dominant than submissive?Aella 0:25:53And then- Oh, to see if it changes over time?Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:54Or you would just have, if a 60 year old was really dominant when he was 20, then you'd know that, I don't know, 60 year old. People who were born in 1980 or something. Yeah.Aella 0:26:03Oh, you mean like, if it's correlated with age?Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:05Yeah. Or just like, if people born earlier were more dominant.Aella 0:26:08I found like, a surprisingly lack of correlations with age. Interesting. I mean, yeah, I could put my laptop on my lapDwarkesh Patel 0:26:14and then look at the correlations live here, but. Do you think weird fetishes, like the weirdest stuff, is that a modern thing? Or if you went back 500 years, people would have been into that kind of s**t? Yeah, I think so.Aella 0:26:25It's just like, the really weird stuff is very rare. Like we're talking like 1%, 0.1%. Like, I mean, it's correlated with rarity. Like the weirder it is, the more rare it is.Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:34Kind of necessarily, because if people had it,Aella 0:26:36then everybody would be like, oh, this is normal. But yeah, my guess is that it's like,Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:39has something to do with like a randomAella 0:26:42early childhood neonatal thing. And like, I haven't been able to find any correlates with childhood stuff, which makes me think it's more innate. And if it's more innate, then it's more likely to have existed for a very long time.Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:53Yeah, yeah. And people who just had weirder and more different experiences in the past. Like if you're just in some sort of cult without any sort of internet or any other sort of experience with the outside world. I don't know, the volatility of your kinks might've just been more, I don't know. Is that possible?Aella 0:27:11Well, the data seems to suggest it's not really based on experience.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:14Yeah.Aella 0:27:15Mostly, I mean, there's like some small exceptions. Interesting. But, so no, also I'm like, I'm not sure that experience was more varied in the past. Like maybe, like the internet is kind of homogenizing, but.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:29So, since the FTX saga happened, people have discovered Caroline Ellison's blog. I don't know if you've seen this on Twitter. And now she's become, you know, every nerd's crush because of her online writing.Aella 0:27:40Oh, really? I mostly just see people dunking on her.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:43Oh yeah, well, there's both, there's both. Do people, this probably wasn't in your kinks survey, but in just general, what is your suspicion about, do people find verbal ability and, you know, that kind of ability very attractive based on online writing or, is that a good signal you can send?Aella 0:28:02I mean, yes, like intelligence and competence is pretty attractive across the board.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:07So if you're signaling that you're smart. You can signal that by just, I don't know, having a college degree from an impressive university, right, but.Aella 0:28:15I mean, it's like kind of better signal.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:17Yeah, yeah.Aella 0:28:18Like people who have college degrees from impressive universities, I don't think are really that smart.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:23Yeah.Aella 0:28:24And like probably like actually demonstrating like direct smartness is a lot more convincing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:30Yeah, yeah.Aella 0:28:31So it makes sense.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:32I think her writing is funny and good. You had this really interesting post. I forgot the title of it, but it was a recent one about how the guys who are being authentic are more attractive.Aella 0:28:44Yeah. The thing that like I noticed while I was doing this, that I was attracted to,Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:49was like somebody like,Aella 0:28:50like sort of being independent of my perspective. Like a lot of time in, when I'm like talking to a guy who I can tellDwarkesh Patel 0:28:56is attracted to me and he's like, I don't know.Aella 0:28:59Like there's a way where he's like trying to orient himself to be what I want. Like very subconsciously, I think, or like subtly in body language, like mirroring, for example, like if I like sit one way and then he sits that way, I'm like, okay, this is an example of like trying to orient yourself into like the kind of person that is going to like be, make me attracted to you. Yeah. I was just like a reasonable strategy. You know, I'm not begrudging anybody this, but I think like women in general are kind of, like it's sort of like an arms race between the genders. And I think women are really attuned to this. Like women are like really good at like sussing out how much authenticity is going on. And so in this experience, when the guy was like talking to me, like some part I noticed that I was like meditating on my experience and connection with this person or these people, I noticed that some part of my brain was like, just like checking like really hard. Like, do I think this person is like masking anything at all right now?Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:54Or is he like unashamed about what he is? Sort of thing. I guess I still understand if somebody is attracted to you, they're going to maybe mirror your body language. What is the way they do that in which they're masking? And what is the way they're doing that in which they're being honest about their intentions? Is it, how does their body language change?Aella 0:30:17Like usually what you are is like quiet and flattering to somebody else. Like when I was like doing this workshop, like people were saying things to me that would typically be considered faux pas. And make people not attracted to you. Like somebody's expressing that they wanted to hurt me,Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:33for example.Aella 0:30:38But like I would prefer somebody do that or something.Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:42Say that they want to or? Yeah. Not to it.Aella 0:30:45Well, not actually hurt me. I prefer not to be hurt most of the time. But there's something like, like there's a way when somebody is like attracted to me and like doing a modified thing. It feels like, one, I don't get to actually know what's going on with them. Like I don't get to see them. I'm seeing like a machine designed to make me feel a certain way. And this is like scary because I don't know what's going on. And I don't know who you are. Like I don't know what's going to happen once you finally have like come and no longer want me anymore. And like somebody who, and it also like is like, my cynic side interprets it as like a dominance thing. Like if you actually don't need me, if your self-worth is not dependent on me whatsoever, if this is like truly an equal game, then you aren't going to need to modify yourself at all. You can just like be who you are, alienate me, like be at risk of alienating me and then f*****g alienate me and you're going to be 100% fine. And like, that's hot. That's hot because like when a guy can signal he doesn't need me, this means that he's like a higher rank than me,Dwarkesh Patel 0:31:51like equal or higher. Yeah. No, okay, so that doesn't sound like authenticity then but it sounds just like how badly do you want me? You know what I mean? Like how, yeah, how eager are you?Aella 0:32:03Well, it's like, it's kind of like a loop or something. Like it's hot to not want somebody, but it's hot because you actually have to not want them. Like it's hot to not have somebody like be trying to get something from youDwarkesh Patel 0:32:17for their purposes.Aella 0:32:19Like just don't conceal.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:20Right.Aella 0:32:21Like, and even if the thing you're not concealing is like a desperate burning desire, if you're like, man, I just like really would want to bang you and I'm like afraid of what you think of me. And, but I'm like, I want you so bad. Like that's hotter than trying to hide the fact that you're doing it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:35Yeah.Aella 0:32:36Yeah. I would like, I would consider banging a guy who's just like laid it all out because like by laying it all out, you're like offering up yourself to be rejected. This means that you're like, you're going to be okay even if I reject you.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:48And like, that's the, so nice. I wonder how universal that is. Like you go to the average girl and you're just like, I really want to just f**k your face or something. What would happen?Aella 0:32:58I mean, it would probably be polarizing. Yeah. The thing is like by being honest, like you might actually make yourself be rejected. Like the point is not like if you're doing it to be accepted, like that's defeating the purpose. Like you just like offer yourself up and they accept you or they reject you. It's like the stupid f*****g annoying Buddhist concept where like by not trying you get the thing, but you have to like actually not try. You have to actually be in touch with the negative outcome and be like, this is real. And which just happened. Like there, like I probably wouldn't f**k a lot of the guys that I talked to despite non-concealing, but like I still, when they were like open and honest, it still like put them into a frame where they could have been sexual. Whereas like before I was like, you're not even in my landscape of like a potential partner. But like by being honest, I was like, now I'm actually doing the evaluation, like actively doing it and considering you in a sexual way, which was like a big leap.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:51Yeah, yeah. The Buddhist guy to pick up artistry.Aella 0:33:54I'm like, that's a great, that'd be a great book.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:57What is charisma? When you notice somebody is being charismatic, like what is happening? Is that body language? Is that internal? And I guess more fundamentally, what is it that you're signaling about yourself when you're being charismatic?Aella 0:34:11I mean, like charismatic, charisma can probably refer to a lot of things, but like the concept that I'm mapping it onto is something like when they make me think that they like me in a way that feels like not needy. And you can break it down into like body language signaling or like social moves. But I think like the core of it is like, like you know when you enter a party and like there's somebody who like is like fun to be around and they really like you, or it seems like they're like welcoming or like, ah, hey, you know, they put you on the back, they make a joke and then they like,Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:43you know, flitter off and you're like, ah, that's that person. Yeah. In movies, TV shows, games, what is the most inaccurate, what do they get most wrong about sex and relationships? What is the trope that's most wrong about this?Aella 0:34:58Well, I mean, okay, I'm, I have a personal pedestal, which might be like slightly besides your question, but like the f*****g monogamy thing. Like I get, I'm down if people want to do monogamy, but it's always, it's like 100% monogamy. And cheating is like always like the worst possible thing ever and that bothers me. I just wish there was a little bit of occasionally, once in a while, there's like, you know, we call it monoplot. My, I have a friend who yelled like monoplot every time there's like a plot, lining in a story that is, could be resolved by being just likeDwarkesh Patel 0:35:32slightly less monogamous.Aella 0:35:34And I'm like, every plot's a monoplot, like you don't even have to be full poly, you just have to like have like a slight amount of flexibility, like, oh, well, then just bring me over for a threesome. Like, but that's not even on the table. I'm like, not, well, not only is it not on the table, but like, it feels like it doesn't represent the general population either. Like around 5% of people are polyamorous and probably like 15 to 30% are like, would be like open to some kind of exploration, like a little bit of looseness, which where is that in media? Nowhere, drives me crazy.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:01But what you're saying is you take Ross's side and they were on a break. Have you seen Friends?Aella 0:36:06No.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:07Okay, nevermind. It's a joke. The plot basically of the show, Money Seasons, was that one of the main characters thought he was on a break with his girlfriend and cheated on her or not. He had sex with somebody else. And that was just basically the plot for like three seasons.Aella 0:36:22Oh man. So you've engaged in activities,Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:26which are most likely to change a person, you know, psychedelics, you know, stuff relating to sex. How much do you think people can change? Because you're on like the spectrum of the things that are most likely to change you. You think people can fundamentally change?Aella 0:36:43No, I mean, like, it's like a weird question, but like, no. Like if I had to give a simplistic answer, like I think I'm very much the person that I was when I was a child or a teenager. I think it's like innate stuff is like really strong. Like I have a friend who was adopted, but happened to know both of his adoptive and his biological father, fathers. And so I asked like, what, like, who are you more like? Like which one impacted you more? And he says that he just has the temperament of his biological father, but like all of like the weird quirks and hangups of his adopted one. And I think like when it comes like temperament or like your base brain functioning in general, like this is like much more persistent and less open to change than most people think. Like, I think I'm basically the same as I was pre psychedelics,Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:29except with like a lot of maturity over timeAella 0:37:33being added on.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:35So your mission to experience every single experience out there, is that, that's not geared towards changing your personality anyway. It just.Aella 0:37:43No, yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:44Yeah, yeah. But you're not, you say you can't remember many of these. So what is motivating it? Like it's not to remember it, it's not to change yourself. What is the-Aella 0:37:53Curiosity? I'm just very curious.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:56I don't know what it's like. Yeah. But it's weird, right? Because when you're curious about something, you hope to understand it and then internalize it. Like if I'm curious about an idea, it would be weird if I like read the book and I forgot about it. It wouldn't feel satisfying to my curiosity.Aella 0:38:11Yeah, well, there's some, like I think a lot of the way people operate is like sometimes you read a book and you might forget the book, but the book like updates your priors. Like the book like describes some way that the world like history worked in the war. And then you sort of like, kind of update your predictions about like the kinds of things that caused war and the kinds of reactions people have. And you forget the book, but you hold the priors. I think that's still really valuable. And I think like a lot of that has happened to me. Like I may have forgotten the experience themselves specifically, but it updated my model of the world. And also like my model of how I react and what I'm capable of. Like I went through like a lot of, you know, intense pain and suffering with psychedelics. And I maybe have forgotten that, but like there's some like deep sense of safety I have now around experiencing pain and grief that like I just carry with me all the time. So like it like sort of molded. And I know that I said that people don't really change, but I mean, that was like a little bit offhanded. Like there's obviously ways people grow. Like obviously people, you're very different from yourself, you know, seven years ago or whatever.Dwarkesh Patel 0:39:08Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I hope that's the case that you're updating your priors. Cause that would mean that all the books I don't remember, should they have like in some sense been useful to me, but I suspect that that might just be co-op on my end and it's like gone forever.Aella 0:39:23I doubt it. I mean, did you have like any sort of like, ah, that sentence when you were reading the books?Dwarkesh Patel 0:39:28Yeah.Aella 0:39:30That's probably still there.Dwarkesh Patel 0:39:32Hopefully, hopefully. You've done a bunch of internet polls, many of them in statistically significant. What advice do you have for political pollsters based on?Aella 0:39:42I don't really follow political pollsters. I don't know. I mean, advice for polls in generalDwarkesh Patel 0:39:48is just have better wording.Aella 0:39:49Like I'm really surprised. I was, I mean, again, I'm taking a side note, but like I went, I want to include some big five questionsDwarkesh Patel 0:39:56in my really big survey.Aella 0:39:58And I understand that the way that they selectDwarkesh Patel 0:40:00big five questions is just,Aella 0:40:02as far as I know, like factor analysis, you just pick the most predictive questions. So it's not like people were like, ah, this is the question, but still like the wording of the questions was terrible. Like it's so much easier to make clearer questions. And I did use the big five questions. I forget exactly what they were, but I'm just like, is this what's going on with surveys in general? Like you don't want to, you want to be careful when you have a question to have it as worded so that people take them as homogenous a meaning from it as possible. But most of the other polls I see in other surveys and other research, it's like people just sort of thought of a good question and kind of slapped it down and never really deeply dug into like studied how people respond to this question, which I think is probably my best comparative advantage is that I've had like a really massive amount of experience over many years and thousands of polls to see exactly how your wording can be misinterpreted in every possible way. And so right now I think probably my best skill is like knowing how to write something to be as like very precise as possible.Dwarkesh Patel 0:41:02Yeah. How do you come up with these polls by the way? You just have an interesting question that comes up in a discussion or?Aella 0:41:07Often it's with discussions with friends. Like we'll be talking about something and somebody brings up like a concept or a what if. And I just have like a module in my brain now that translates everything to potential Twitter polls. So like whenever something like generates a concept,Dwarkesh Patel 0:41:20I'll go put that in a poll. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey guys, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. If you are, I would really, really appreciate it if you could share the episode with other people who you think might like it. This is still a pretty small podcast. So it's basically impossible for me to exaggerate how much it helps out when one of you shares the podcast. You know, put the episode in the group chat you have with your friends, post it on Twitter, send it to somebody who you think might like it. All of those things helps out a ton. Anyways, back to the conversation. I found it surprising you've been tweeting about your saga of learning and applying different statistical tools in Python. And I found it surprising, don't you have like a thousand nerdy reply guys who would be happy to help you out? How is this not a soft problem?Aella 0:42:16People are not good at helping you learn Python.Dwarkesh Patel 0:42:18At least not good at helping you.Aella 0:42:20At least not good at helping me learn Python. There are some people who are really good, but sometimes when I'm trying to learn Python, it's like at 3 a.m. and they're all sleeping. So I'm not saying that like everybody, I have some people who are like really excellentDwarkesh Patel 0:42:30at understanding and responding to me.Aella 0:42:31But when I'm tweeting, usually it's like, I don't wanna bother them or they're on break or something. And I have a chat where people help me, but often it's very frustrating. Because I, they just like, they're trying to explain, what I want, the way that I like to learn is, you just give me the code, give me the code that I know works. I do it, I test it, I see it, whether it works. And after that, then I go throughDwarkesh Patel 0:42:51and I try to understand the code.Aella 0:42:52But what people wanna do is they wanna explain to meDwarkesh Patel 0:42:54how it works before they do it.Aella 0:42:55Or, and it's not really their fault, but it's like there's the unfortunate thing where if somebody wants to help you do a problem, usually they have to go do a little bit of research themselves because programming is such a wide, vast landscape. Like people just don't offhandedly know the answer to your question. And so it requires a bit of work on their part. And it requires them being like, oh, maybe it's this. And then they post a bit of code. And, but you don't know, I try it and like it doesn't work. And they're like, ah, well, I'll try this other thing. And then it becomes like a collaborative problem solving process, which is like more annoying to me. I mean, it's necessary. I'm not saying it's their fault at all. It's like my fault for being annoyed. But I just want like, give me the answer. And then we can go through the whole like questions about it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:32Have you tried using CoPilot by the way? I haven't.Aella 0:43:34You got it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:35Yeah.Aella 0:43:36It's gonna solve all your problems.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:37That's what people said. Yeah. It's like the ultimate. Okay. Autocompletor. It's like basically what you're asking for.Aella 0:43:42I was like trying to like look into it recently,Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:44but this is like the push that I need to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had heard about it too. And then my friend is just like, I'm gonna watch you install CoPilot right now. Don't say you're gonna install it. And yeah, it's been very valuable.Aella 0:43:57That's good. That's a useful anecdote.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:59Yeah, yeah. I found your post about hanging out with elites really interesting.Aella 0:44:05Hanging out with elites, yeah. Do you, and I was wondering,Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:08is it possible that all the elites feel the same way about being there that you did? They're all like, this is kind of bizarre and boring. And I guess I'll just try to fit in. You know, is that possible? Or do you think they were actually different?Aella 0:44:22I guess it's probably a little of both. Like I wouldn't be surprised if everybody else felt it more than I thought. But also I would be surprisedDwarkesh Patel 0:44:28if everybody else felt it as much as me.Aella 0:44:30Because like when I do have like, it seems like I do have a like actually very different background than most of the people. And most of the people I asked about their backgrounds and they usually come from like much wealthier familiesDwarkesh Patel 0:44:41than I did.Aella 0:44:42Like went to school. Usually that's a big thing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:43They went to college. That's a huge, big, to me,Aella 0:44:47like if you're in my group or not in my group,Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:48is did you go to college? Yeah. And I feel like much more at ease with people who didn't. But when you're talking about these boring conversations, I know you were calling them. Do you think that they also thought it was boring, but that they were supposed to have those conversations? Or do you think they were actually enjoying it?Aella 0:45:01I don't know. Like recently I was at a party and I was like, okay, I'm not, I'm just staying at this party, but like, okay, let's take matters into our own hands. I'm just gonna run up to groups of peopleDwarkesh Patel 0:45:11and ask them like the weirdest question I can think of.Aella 0:45:14And then, and in my mind, I was like, okay, if I'm standing up there, standing at a party and somebody runs up to me with a weird question, I'd be like, f**k yes, let's go. Like, okay, I would like respond with a weirder question. I'd be like, let's dig into this. You know, I would be so f*****g thrilled. And so I was at this party, what I would consider to be like in the crowds of elite. It was like a little bit of a, it was like a party, less like a cocktail thing where people like be smart at each other and more like a get drunk and dance thing. But it was still like a much higher end kind of, so tickets were like really expensive. So I went around, I ran, I asked a whole bunch of people weird questions and just, like people obviously were like down to participate in like somebody trying to initiate conversation with them. But like the resulting conversations were not interesting at all.Dwarkesh Patel 0:45:57I was shocked with like how few conversationsAella 0:46:01were interesting. It was just people,Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:02it was just like, there was nothing there.Aella 0:46:05And I'm like, are you not all desperate to like cling on to something more fascinating than what's currently happening? It seemed like they weren't. I just got that impression.Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:12But do you think they were enjoying what they were doing?Aella 0:46:15That you mean just the normal conversation? Yeah. I think so. If they weren't, they would be searching for something else, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:21That's not obvious to me. Like people can sometimes just be super complacent and they're just like a status quo bias. Or they're just like, I don't wanna do anything too shocking.Aella 0:46:28Yeah, but if I'm handing them shocking on a platter, I run up to them. They didn't even have to do anything. I just like walk into the, I interrupt their conversation. I'm like, here's something.Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:36What is an example?Aella 0:46:38Like, like, like, you know, like what's the most controversial opinion you have?Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:43You just walk in like Peter Thiel.Aella 0:46:44Is that what he does?Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:46Oh, well, he has this, there's a famous Peter Thiel question about what is something you believe that nobody else agrees with you on? Or very people agree with you on.Aella 0:46:53Yeah, okay. I didn't know that, but yeah. My version is like, what's the most controversial? And then usually I say either like in the circle people discussingDwarkesh Patel 0:47:01or like people at this party.Aella 0:47:02And it's shocking how many people are like, I don't have a controversial opinion on. How do you, like out of all culture, like you think that this culture is the one that's 100% right and you don't agree with all of it? Like out of all of history, you think in like 500 years, we're gonna look back and be like, ah, yes, 2022, that was the year.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:19So in their defense, I think what could be going on is you just have a bunch of beliefs and you just haven't categorized them, indexed them in terms of controversial or not controversial. And so on the spot, it just like you gotta search through every single belief you have. Like, is that controversial? Is that controversial?Aella 0:47:37Yeah, but you can make allowances for it. Like sometimes people are like, ooh, I don't know like which one is the most, you know, I'd have to think like.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:43I have so many.Aella 0:47:44Right, or like, well, I mean, there's some things I disagree on, but they're not sure they're controversial. Like these count. Like there's like a kind of response people give when you know that the thing, the issue is not that they don't have a controversial opinion, but rather that like it's sorting. But like I've talked to people who are like, oh, I don't really have one. And I was like, you mean you don't have any? And I would like pride, like there's nothing that you believe. And they'd be like, no, not really. And like, maybe they were lying, but like usually people are like,Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:12well, I have one, but I'm afraid to say. And like that's. No.Aella 0:48:17Anyway, I don't know. I don't understand.Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:20I wonder if you were more specific, you would get some more controversial takes.Aella 0:48:24Like what's your most controversial opinionDwarkesh Patel 0:48:25like about this thing? Yeah, yeah. What should the age of consent be? You know what I mean?Aella 0:48:29Yeah, yeah. Sometimes I do questions like that,Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:31but I like the controversial one is a good opener.Aella 0:48:34It's like it gives you a lot of information about the other person. Like it gives you a fresh about what their social group is. But I also like the game. I've started transitioning to a game where I'm like, okay, you have to say a pin you hold. And if anybody in the group disagrees with it, they hold up a hand and you get pointsDwarkesh Patel 0:48:50for the amount of people that hold up a hand. Oh, yeah.Aella 0:48:52And the person who gets the most points wins. Because people have this horrible tendency. Like I'll be like, what's the most controversial opinionDwarkesh Patel 0:48:57that you have in this group?Aella 0:48:59And then they'll say a controversial opinion for the out group. And I'll be like, but does anybody actually disagree with that here? Like, oh, like Trump wasn't as horrible as people say he is.Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:09I'm like. Yeah, no. One interesting twist on that, by the way. Tyler Cowen had a twist on that question in his application for emergent mentors. So everybody's been asking the P.J. Teal question about what do you believe? And nobody else agrees with the most controversial opinion. And so it's kind of priced in at this point. And so Tyler's question on the application was, what is, what do you believe, what is like your most conventional belief? Like what is the thing you hold strongest that most people would agree with you on? And it kind of situates you in terms of what is the, where are you overlapping with the status quo?Aella 0:49:47Like, I feel confused about this. So I would probably say something like gravity is real.Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:52No, exactly. I think he's like looking for. Oh, something like that? You being conventional in a contrarian way. Maybe you just said something weird. Like, I believe that the feeling of the waves on my skin is beautiful and feels great, you know? It just shows you're not answering it in the normal way.Aella 0:50:08Oh, he wants the non-conventional answer.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:10Yeah, yeah.Aella 0:50:12Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of that question though. Like I'm like not sure that question is like, like the best question to test for non-conventionality.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:18Yeah, yeah. I would have thought by the way, that high-end escorts would be very familiar with elite culture. Because you watch these movies and these, you know, these escorts are going with rich CEOs at fundraiser dinners and stuff like that. I would have thought that actually the high-end escorts would be like very familiar with elite culture. Is that not the case or?Aella 0:50:38I mean, probably some are, but I'm not. I mean, like I've had a few people offer to take me to public events, but never actually happened. I've never appeared, like been hired to be aroundDwarkesh Patel 0:50:51like a man's social circle.Aella 0:50:53Usually people are very private about that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:55That's interesting. Because I would have thought one of the things rich men really probably want to do is signal social status. Probably even, potentially even more than have sex, right?Aella 0:51:04Maybe.Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:05To show that they have beautiful women around them.Aella 0:51:07Yeah, I think my guess is they would be seen as high risk. And I've known other escorts who have in fact been brought to events. So it's not that this doesn't happen, but like, I don't think it happens a lot,Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:17at least based on my experience. No, interesting.Aella 0:51:20It's possible that I'm not like pretty enough. It's possible that like a woman is very beautiful that she might get invited more often.Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:25But my guess is like,Aella 0:51:29like they can't trust that I know enough to be able to pass as an elite in those circles. Like I'm a weirdo sex worker who the f**k knows. Like, am I going to be doing drives in the bathroom? Am I going to be ta

I had a fascinating discussion about Robert Moses and The Power Broker with Professor Kenneth T. Jackson.He's the pre-eminent historian on NYC and author of Robert Moses and The Modern City: The Transformation of New York.He answers:* Why are we so much worse at building things today?* Would NYC be like Detroit without the master builder?* Does it take a tyrant to stop NIMBY?Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here.Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.If you end up enjoying this episode, I would be super grateful if you share it, post it on Twitter, send it to your friends & group chats, and throw it up wherever else people might find it. Can't exaggerate how much it helps a small podcast like mine.A huge thanks to Graham Bessellieu for editing this podcast.Timestamps(0:00:00) Preview + Intro(0:11:13) How Moses Gained Power(0:18:22) Moses Saved NYC?(0:27:31) Moses the Startup Founder?(0:32:34) The Case Against Moses Highways(0:51:24) NIMBYism(1:03:44) Is Progress Cyclical(1:12:36) Friendship with Caro(1:20:41) Moses the Longtermist?.TranscriptThis transcript was produced by a program I wrote. If you consume my podcast via transcripts, let me know in the comments if this transcript was (or wasn't) an adequate substitute for the human edited transcripts in previous episodes.0:00:00 Preview + IntroKenneth Jackson 0:00:00Robert Moses represented a past, you know, a time when we wanted to build bridges and super highways and things that pretty much has gone on. We're not building super highways now. We're not building vast bridges like Moses built all the time. Had Robert Moses not lived, not done what he did, New York would have followed the trail of maybe Detroit. Essentially all the big roads, all the bridges, all the parks, the United Nations, Lincoln Center, the World's Fairs of 1939 and 1964, and hundreds of other things he built. And I think it was the best book I ever read. In broad strokes, it's correct. Robert Moses had more power than any urban figure in American history. He built incredible monuments. He was ruthless and arrogant and honest. Okay.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:54I am really, really excited about this one. Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Professor Kenneth T. Jackson about the life and legacy of Robert Moses. Professor Jackson is the preeminent historian on New York City. He was the director of the Herbert H. Lehman Center for American History and the Jock Barzun Professor Emeritus of History at Columbia University, where he has also shared the Department of History. And we were discussing Robert Moses. Professor Jackson is the author and editor of Robert Moses and the Modern City, the Transformation of New York. Professor Jackson, welcome to the podcast.Kenneth Jackson 0:01:37Well, thank you for having me. Okay.Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:40So many people will have heard of Robert Moses and be vaguely aware of him through the popular biography of him by Robert Caro, the power broker. But most people will not be aware of the extent of his influence on New York City. Can you give a kind of a summary of the things he was able to get built in New York City?Kenneth Jackson 0:02:03One of the best comparisons I can think of is that our Caro himself, when he compared him to Christopher Wren in London, he said, if you would see his monument, look around. It's almost more easier to talk about what Moses didn't do than what he did do. If you all the roads, essentially all the big roads, all the bridges, all the parks, the United Nations, Lincoln Center, the World's Fairs of 1939 and 1964, and hundreds of other things he built. I mean, he didn't actually do it with his own two hands, but he was in charge. He got it done. And Robert Caro wrote a really great book. I think the book was flawed because I think Caro only looked at Moses's own documents and Moses had a very narrow view of himself. I mean, he thought he was a great man, but I mean, he didn't pay any attention to what was going on in LA very much, for example. But clearly, by any standard, he's the greatest builder in American history. There's nobody really in second place. And not only did he build and spend this vast amount of money, he was in power for a long time, really a half century more or less. And he had a singular focus. He was married, but his personal life was not important to him. He did it without scandal, really, even Caro admits that he really died with less than he started with. So I mean, he wanted power, and boy, did he have power. He technically was subservient to governors and mayors, but since he built so much and since he had multiple jobs, that was part of his secret. He had as many as six, eight, ten different things at once. If the mayor fired him or got rid of him, he had all these different ways, which he was in charge of that the mayor couldn't. So you people were afraid of him, and they also respected him. He was very smart, and he worked for a dollar a year. So what are you going to get him for? As Caro says, nobody is ready to be compared with Robert Moses. In fact, compares him with an act of nature. In other words, the person you can compare him with is God. That's the person. He put the rivers in. He put the hills in. He put the island in. Compare that to Moses, what Moses did. No other person could compare to that. That's a little bit of exaggeration, but when you really think about Robert Moses and you read the Power Broker, you are stunned by the scope of his achievement. Just stunned. And even beyond New York, when we think of the interstate highway system, which really starts in 1954, 55, 56, and which is 40-something thousand miles of interstate highways, those were built by Moses' men, people who had in their young life had worked with the parkways and expressways in and around New York City. So they were ready to go. So Moses and Moses also worked outside New York City, mostly inside New York City, but he achieved so much. So probably you need to understand it's not easy to get things done in New York. It's very, very dense, much twice as dense as any place in the United States and full of neighborhoods that feel like little cities and are little cities and that don't want change even today. A place like Austin, for example, is heavy into development, not New York. You want to build a tall building in New York, you got to fight for it. And the fact that he did so much in the face of opposition speaks a lot to his methods and the way he… How did Moses do what he did? That is a huge question because it isn't happening anymore, certainly not in New YorkDwarkesh Patel 0:06:22City. Yeah. And that's really why I actually wanted to talk to you and talk about this book because the Power Broker was released in 1974 and at the time New York was not doing well, which is to put it mildly. But today the crisis we face is one where we haven't built significant public works in many American cities for decades. And so it's interesting to look back on a time when we could actually get a lot of public works built very quickly and very efficiently and see if maybe we got our characterization of the people at the time wrong. And that's where your 2007 book comes in. So I'm curious, how was the book received 50 years after, or I guess 40 years after the Power Broker was released? What was the reception like? How does the intellectual climate around these issues change in that time?Kenneth Jackson 0:07:18The Power Broker is a stunning achievement, but you're right. The Power Broker colon Robert Moses and the fall of New York. He's thinking that in the 1970s, which is the… In New York's 400-year history, we think of the 1970s as being the bottom. City was bankrupt, crime was going up, corruption was all around. Nothing was working very well. My argument in the subtitle of the 2007 book or that article is Robert Moses and the rise of New York. Arguing that had Robert Moses not lived, not done what he did, New York would have followed the trail of maybe Detroit and St. Louis and Cincinnati and Pittsburgh and most cities in the Northeast and Midwest, which really declined. New York City really hasn't declined. It's got more people now than it ever did. It's still a number one city in the world, really, by most of our standards. It's the global leader, maybe along with London. At one point in the 1980s, we thought it might be Tokyo, which is the largest city in the world, but it's no longer considered competitive with New York. I say London too because New York and London are kind of alone at the top. I think Robert Moses' public works, activities, I just don't know that you could have a New York City and not have expressways. I don't like the Cross Bronx expressway either and don't want to drive on it. How can you have a world in which you can't go from Boston to San Francisco? You had to have it. You have to have some highways and Carroll had it exactly wrong. He talked about Moses and the decline of public transit in New York. Actually what you need to explain in New York is why public transit survived in New York, wherein most other American cities, the only people who use public transit are the losers. Oh, the disabled, the poor and stuff like that. In New York City, rich people ride the subway. It's simply the most efficient way to get around and the quickest. That question needs, some of the things need to be turned on its head. How did he get it done? How did he do it without scandal? I mean, when you think about how the world is in our time, when everything has either a financial scandal or a sexual scandal attached to it, Moses didn't have scandals. He built the White Stone Bridge, for example, which is a gigantic bridge connecting the Bronx to Queens. It's beautiful. It was finished in the late 1930s on time and under budget. Actually a little earlier. There's no such thing as that now. You're going to do a big public works project and you're going to do it on time. And also he did it well. Jones Beach, for example, for generations has been considered one of the great public facilities on earth. It's gigantic. And he created it. You know, I know people will say it's just sand and water. No, no, it's a little more complicated than that. So everything he did was complicated. I mean, I think Robert Caro deserves a lot of credit for doing research on Moses, his childhood, his growing up, his assertion that he's the most important person ever to live in and around New York. And just think of Franklin Roosevelt and all the people who lived in and around New York. And Moses is in a category by himself, even though most Americans have never heard of Robert Moses. So his fame is still not, that book made him famous. And I think his legacy will continue to evolve and I think slightly improve as Americans realize that it's so hard, it's hard to build public works, especially in dense urban environments. And he did it.0:11:13 How Moses Gained PowerDwarkesh Patel 0:11:33Yeah. There's so much to talk about there. But like one of the interesting things from the Power Broker is Caro is trying to explain why governors and mayors who were hesitant about the power that Moses was gaining continued to give him more power. And there's a section where he's talking about how FDR would keep giving him more positions and responsibilities, even though FDR and Moses famously had a huge enmity. And he says no governor could look at the difficulty of getting things built in New York and not admire and respect Moses' ability to do things, as he said, efficiently, on time, under budget, and not need him, essentially. But speaking of scandal, you talked about how he didn't take salary for his 12 concurrent government roles that he was on. But there's a very arresting anecdote in the Power Broker where I think he's 71 and his daughter gets cancer. And for the first time, I think he had to accept, maybe I'm getting the details wrong, but he had to accept salary for working on the World's Fair because he didn't have enough. He was the most powerful person in New York, and he didn't have enough money to pay for his daughter's cancer. And even Caro himself says that a lot of the scandals that came later in his life, they were just kind of trivial stuff, like an acre of Central Park or the Shakespeare in the park. Yeah, it wasn't... The things that actually took him down were just trivial scandals.Kenneth Jackson 0:13:07Well, in fact, when he finally was taken down, it took the efforts of a person who was almost considered the second most powerful person in the United States, David Rockefeller, and the governor of New York, both of whom were brothers, and they still had a lot of Moses to make him kind of get out of power in 1968. But it was time. And he exercised power into his 70s and 80s, and most of it was good. I mean, the bridges are remarkable. The bridges are gorgeous, mostly. They're incredible. The Throgs Neck Bridge, the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, the Triborough Bridge, they're really works of art. And he liked to build things you could see. And I think the fact that he didn't take money was important to it. You know, he was not poor. I wouldn't say he's not wealthy in New York terms, but he was not a poor person. He went to Yale as a Jewish person, and let's say in the early 20th century, that's fairly unusual and he lived well. So we can't say he's poor, but I think that Carol was right in saying that what Moses was after in the end was not sex and not power, and not sex and not money. Power. He wanted power. And boy, did he get it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:37Well, there's a good review of the book from, I'm not sure if I remember the last name, but it was Philip Lopgate or something. Low paid, I think.Kenneth Jackson 0:14:45Okay.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:46And he made a good point, which was that the connotation of the word power is very negative, but it's kind of a modern thing really to have this sort of attitude towards power that like somebody who's just seeking it must necessarily have suspicious motivations. If Moses believed, and in fact, he was probably right in believing that he was just much more effective at building public works for the people that live in New York, was it irrational of him or was it selfish of him to just desire to work 14 hour days for 40 years on end in order to accumulate the power by which he could build more public works? So there's a way of looking at it where this pursuit of power is not itself troubling.Kenneth Jackson 0:15:36Well, first of all, I just need to make a point that it's not just New York City. I mean, Jones Beach is on Long Island. A lot of those highways, the Northern State Parkway, the Southern State Parkway are built outside the city and also big projects, the Power Authority in upstate New York. He also was consultant around the world in cities and transportation. So his influence was really felt far beyond New York City. And of course, New York City is so big and so important. I think also that we might want to think about, at least I think so, what do I say, the counterfactual argument. Can you imagine? I can remember when I was in the Air Force, we lived next door to a couple from New York City. We didn't know New York City at the time. And I can't remember whether she or he was from the Bronx or Brooklyn, but they had they made us understand how incredibly much he must have loved her to go to Brooklyn or the Bronx to see her and pick her up for days and stuff like this. You couldn't get there. I mean, it would take you three hours to go from the Rockaways in Brooklyn to somewhere in the Northern Bronx. But the roads that Moses built, you know, I know at rush hour they're jammed, but you know, right this minute on a Sunday, you can whiz around New York City on these expressways that Moses built. It's hard to imagine New York without. The only thing Moses didn't do was the subway, and many people have criticized him because the subways were deteriorated between the time they were built in the early part of the 20th century in 1974 when Carol wrote to Power Broker. But so had public transit systems all over the United States. And the public transit system in New York is now better than it was 50 years ago. So that trajectory has changed. And all these other cities, you know, Pittsburgh used to have 600,000 people. Now it has 300,000. Cleveland used to have 900,000 and something. Now it's below five. Detroit used to have two million. Now it's 600 something thousand. St. Louis used to have 850,000. Now it's three hundreds. I mean, the steep drop in all these other cities in the Midwest and Northeast, even Washington and even Boston and Philadelphia, they all declined except New York City, which even though it was way bigger than any of them in 1950 is bigger now than it was then. More people crammed into this small space. And Moses had something to do with that.0:18:22 Would NYC Have Fallen Without Moses?Dwarkesh Patel 0:18:22Yeah, yeah, yeah. You write in the book and I apologize for quoting you back to yourself, but you write, had the city not undertaken a massive program of public works between 1924 and 1970, had it not built the arterial highway system and had it not relocated 200,000 people from old law tenements to new public housing projects, New York would not have been able to claim in the 1990s that it was a capital of the 20th century. I would like to make this connection more explicit. So what is the reason for thinking that if New York hadn't done urban renewal and hadn't built the more than 600 miles of highways that Moses built there, that New York would have declined like these other cities in the Northeast and the Midwest?Kenneth Jackson 0:19:05Well, I mean, you could argue, first of all, and friends of mine have argued this, that New York is not like other cities. It's a world city and has been and what happens to the rest of the United States is, I accept a little bit of that, but not all of it. You say, well, New York is just New York. And so whatever happens here is not necessarily because of Moses or different from Detroit, but I think it's important to realize its history has been different from other American cities. Most American cities, especially the older cities, have been in relative decline for 75 years. And in some ways New York has too. And it was its relative dominance of the United States is less now than because there's been a shift south and west in the United States. But the prosperity of New York, the desire of people to live in it, and after all, one of its problems is it's so expensive. Well, one reason it's expensive is people want to live there. If they didn't want to live there, it would be like Detroit. It'd be practically free. You know what I mean? So there are answers to these issues. But Moses' ways, I think, were interesting. First of all, he didn't worry about legalities. He would start an expressway through somebody's property and dare a judge to tell him to stop after the construction had already started. And most of the time, Moses, he was kind of like Hitler. It was just, I don't mean to say he was like Hitler. What I mean is, but you have such confidence. You just do things and dare other people to change it. You know what I mean? I'm going to do it. And most people don't have that. I think there's a little bit of that in Trump, but not as much. I mean, I don't think he has nearly the genius or brains of Moses. But there's something to self-confidence. There's something to having a broad vision. Moses liked cities, but he didn't like neighborhoods or people. In other words, I don't think he loved New York City. Here's the person who is more involved. He really thought everybody should live in suburbs and drive cars. And that was the world of the future. And he was going to make that possible. And he thought all those old law tenements in New York, which is really anything built before 1901, were slums. And they didn't have hot and cold water. They often didn't have bathrooms. He thought they should be destroyed. And his vision was public housing, high-rise public housing, was an improvement. Now I think around the United States, we don't think these high-rise public housing projects are so wonderful. But he thought he was doing the right thing. And he was so arrogant, he didn't listen to people like Jane Jacobs, who fought him and said, you're saying Greenwich Village is a slum? Are you kidding me? I mean, he thought it was a slum. Go to Greenwich Village today. Try to buy anything for under a million dollars. I mean, it doesn't exist. You know what I mean? I mean, Greenwich Village, and he saw old things, old neighborhoods, walking, is hopelessly out of date. And he was wrong. He was wrong about a lot of his vision. And now we understand that. And all around the country, we're trying to revitalize downtowns and reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and gasoline and cars. But Moses didn't see the world that way. It's interesting. He never himself drove a car. Can you believe that the man who had more influence on the American car culture, probably even than Henry Ford, himself was always driven. He was chauffeured. In fact, he was so busy that Carol talks about him as having two limousines behind each other. And he would have a secretary in one, and he would be dealing with business and writing letters and things like this. And then she would have all she could do. They would pull off to the side of the road. She would get out of his car. The car that was following would discharge the secretary in that car. They would switch places. And the fresh secretary would get in the backseat, Moses, and they would continue to work. And the first secretary would go to type up whatever she had to do. He worked all the time. He really didn't have much of a private life. There are not many people like Robert Moses. There are people like Robert Moses, but not so many, and he achieved his ideal. I think that there are so many ironies there. Not only did he not drive himself, he didn't appreciate so much the density of New York, which many people now love, and it's getting more dense. They're building tall buildings everywhere. And he didn't really appreciate the diversity, the toleration. He didn't care about that, but it worked. And I just think we have to appreciate the fact that he did what was impossible, really impossible, and nobody else could have done what he did. And if we hadn't done it then, he sure as heck wouldn't be able to do it in the 21st century, when people are even more litigious. You try to change the color of a door in New York City, and there'll be—you try to do something positive, like build a free swimming pool, fix up an old armory and turn it into a public—there'll be people who'll fight you. I'm not kidding this. And Moses didn't care. He says, I'm going to do this. When he built the Cross Bronx Expressway, which in some ways is—it was horrible what he did to these people, but again, Carol mischaracterizes what happened. But it's a dense working class—let's call it Jewish neighborhood—in the early 1950s. And Roses decides we need an interstate highway or a big highway going right through it. Well, he sent masses of people letters that said, get out in 90 days. He didn't mean 91 days. He meant—he didn't mean let's argue about it for four years. Let's go to legit—Moses meant the bulldozers will be bulldozing. And that kind of attitude, we just don't have anymore. And it's kind of funny now to think back on it, but it wasn't funny to the people who got evicted. But again, as I say, it's hard to imagine a New York City without the Cross Bronx Expressway. They tore down five blocks of dense buildings, tore them down, and built this road right through it. You live—and they didn't worry about where they were going to rehouse them. I mean, they did, but it didn't work. And now it's so busy, it's crowded all the time. So what does this prove? That we need more roads? But you can't have more roads in New York because if you build more roads, what are you going to do with the cars? Right now, the problem is there are so many cars in the city, there's nothing to do. It's easy to get around in New York, but what are you going to do with the car? You know, the car culture has the seeds of its own destruction. You know, cars just parking them or putting them in a garage is a problem. And Moses didn't foresee those. He foreseed you're all going to live in the Long Island suburbs or Westchester suburbs or New Jersey suburbs. Park your car in your house and come in the city to work. Now, the city is becoming a place to live more than a place to work. So what they're doing in New York as fast as they can is converting office buildings into residential units. He would never have seen that, that people would want to live in the city, had options that they would reject a single family house and choose high rise and choose the convenience of going outside and walking to a delicatessen over the road, driving to a grocery store. It's a world he never saw.0:27:31 Moses the Startup Founder?Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:31Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like the thing you pointed out earlier about him having the two limousines and then the enormous work ethic and then the 90 day eviction. I mean, I'm a programmer and I can recognize this trope immediately. Right. Robert Moses was a startup founder, but in government, you know, that attitude is like, yeah, it's like Silicon Valley. That's like we all recognize that.Kenneth Jackson 0:27:54And I think we should we should we should go back to what you said earlier about why was it that governors or mayors couldn't tell him what to do? Because there are many scenes in the power broker where he will go to the mayor who wants to do something else. And Moses would, damn it. He'd say, damn it, throw his pages on the desk and say, sign this. This is my resignation. You know, OK. And I'm out of here because the mayors and governors love to open bridges and highways and and do it efficiently and beautifully. And Moses could do that. Moses could deliver. And the workers loved him because he paid union wages, good wages to his workers. And he got things done and and things like more than 700 playgrounds. And it wasn't just grand things. And even though people criticize the 1964 World's Fair as a failure and financially it was a failure, but still tens of millions of people went there and had a good time. You know, I mean, even some of the things were supposedly were failures. Failures going to home, according to the investment banker, maybe, but not to the people who went there.Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:20Right. Yeah. And I mean, the point about the governors and mayors needing him, it was especially important to have somebody who could like work that fast. If you're going to get reelected in four years or two years, you need somebody who can get public works done faster than they're done today. Right. If you want to be there for the opening. Yeah, exactly.Kenneth Jackson 0:29:36And it's important to realize, to say that Moses did try public office once.Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:41Yeah.Kenneth Jackson 0:29:42And I think it's true that he lost by more than anybody in the history of New York. He was not, you know, he was not an effective public speaker. He was not soft and friendly and warm and cuddly. That's not Robert Moses. The voters rejected him. But the people who had power and also Wall Street, because you had to issue bonds. And one of the ways that Moses had power was he created this thing called the Traverse Bridge and Tunnel Authority to build the Traverse Bridge. Well, now, if in Portland, Oregon, you want to build a bridge or a road, you issue a couple hundred million dollars worth of bonds to the public and assign a value to it. Interest rate is paid off by the revenue that comes in from the bridge or the road or whatever it is. Normally, before, normally you would build a public works and pay for it itself on a user fees. And when the user fees paid it off, it ended. But what Moses, who was called the best bill drafter in Albany, which was a Moses term, he said he was somewhere down in paragraph 13, Section G, say, and the chairman can only be removed for cause. What that meant was when you buy a bond for the Traverse Bridge or something else, you're in a contract, supported by the Supreme Court. This is a financial deal you're making with somebody. And part of the contract was the chairman gets to stay unless he does something wrong. Well, Moses was careful not to do anything wrong. And it also would continue. You would get the bond for the Traverse Bridge, but rather than pay off the Traverse Bridge, he would build another project. It would give him the right to continually build this chain of events. And so he had this massive pot of money from all these initially nickels and dimes. Brazil made up a lot of money, the 30s and 40s and 50s and 60s, to spend more money and build more bridges and build more roads. And that's where he had his power. And the Wall Street, the big business loved him because they're issuing the bonds. The unions loved him because they're paying the investors. Now what Carroll says is that Moses allowed the investors an extra quarter percent, I think a quarter percent or half percent on bonds, but they all sold out. So everybody was happy. And was that crooked? It wasn't really illegal. But it's the way people do that today. If you're issuing a bond, you got to figure out what interest am I going to pay on this that will attract investors now.0:32:34 The Case Against Moses HighwaysDwarkesh Patel 0:32:34And the crucial thing about these tales of graft is that it never was about Moses trying to get rich. It was always him trying to push through a project. And obviously that can be disturbing, but it is a completely different category of thing, especially when you remember that this was like a corrupt time in New York history. It was like after Tammany Hall and so on. So it's a completely different from somebody using their projects to get themselves rich. But I do want to actually talk in more detail about the impact of these roads. So obviously we can't, the current system we have today where we just kind of treat cities as living museums with NIMBYism and historical preservation, that's not optimal. But there are examples, at least of Carroll's, about Moses just throwing out thousands of people carelessly, famously in that chapter on the one mile, how Moses could have diverted the cross Bronx expressway one mile and prevented thousands of people from getting needlessly evicted. So I'm just going to list off a few criticisms of his highway building and then you can respond to them in any order you want. So one of the main criticisms that Carroll makes is that Moses refused to add mass transit to his highways, which would have helped deal with the traffic problem and the car problem and all these other problems at a time when getting the right of way and doing the construction would have been much cheaper. Because of his dislike for mass transit, he just refused to do that. And also the prolific building of highways contributed to urban sprawl, it contributed to congestion, it contributed to neighborhoods getting torn apart if a highway would crossKenneth Jackson 0:34:18them.Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:19So a whole list of criticisms of these highways. I'll let you take it in any order you want.Kenneth Jackson 0:34:27Well first of all, Moses response was, I wasn't in charge of subways. So if you think the subways deteriorated or didn't build enough, find out who was in charge of them and blame that person. I was in charge of highways and I built those. So that's the first thing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:41But before you answer that, can I just ask, so on that particular point, it is true that he wasn't in charge of mass transit, but also he wasn't in charge of roads until he made himself responsible for roads, right? So if he chose to, he could have made himself responsible for mass transit and taken careKenneth Jackson 0:34:56of it. Maybe, although I think the other thing about it is putting Moses in a broader historical concept. He was swimming with the tide of history. In other words, history when he was building, was building Ford Motor Company and General Motors and Chrysler Corporation and building cars by the millions. I mean, the automobile industry in the United States was huge. People thought any kind of rail transit was obsolete and on the way out anyway. So let's just build roads. I mean, that's what the public wanted. He built what the public wanted. It's not what I was looking historically. I don't think we did the right thing, but we needed to join the 20th century. New York could have stayed as a quaint, I don't know, quaint is not the right word, but it's a distinctly different kind of place where everybody walks. I just don't think it would have been the same kind of city because there are people who are attached to their cars in New York. And so the sprawl in New York, which is enormous, nobody's saying it wasn't, spreads over 31 counties, an area about as large as the state of Connecticut, about as large as the Netherlands is metropolitan New York. But it's still relatively, I don't want to say compact, but everybody knows where the center is. It's not that anybody grows up in New York at 16 and thinks that the world is in some mall, you know, three miles away. They all know there is a center and that's where it is. It's called Manhattan. And that's New York and Moses didn't change that for all of his roads. There's still in New York a definite center, skyscrapers and everything in the middle. And it's true, public transit did decline. But you know those, and I like Chicago, by the way, and they have a rail transit from O'Hare down to Dan Ryan, not to Dan Ryan, but the JFK Expressway, I think. And it works sort of, but you got to walk a ways to get on. You got to walk blocks to get in the middle of the expressway and catch the train there. It's not like in New York where you just go down some steps. I mean, New York subway is much bigger than Chicago and more widely used and more. And the key thing about New York, and so I think what Carol was trying to explain and your question suggests this, is was Moses responsible for the decline of public transit? Well, he was building cars and roads and bridges. So in that sense, a little bit, yes. But if you look at New York compared to the rest of the United States, it used to be that maybe 20 percent of all the transit riders in the United States were in the New York area. Now it's 40 percent. So if you're looking at the United States, what you have to explain is why is New York different from the rest of the United States? Why is it that when I was chairman or president of the New York Historical Society, we had rich trustees, and I would tell them, well, I got here on a subway or something. They would think, I would say, how do you think I got here? Do you know what I mean? I mean, these are people who are close to billionaires and they're saying they used the subway. If you're in lower Manhattan and you're trying to get to Midtown and it's raining, it's five o'clock, you've got to be a fool to try to get in your own limousine. It isn't going to get you there very quickly. A subway will. So there are reasons for it. And I think Moses didn't destroy public transit. He didn't help it. But his argument was he did. And that's an important distinction, I think. But he was swimming with history. He built what the public wanted. I think if he had built public transit, he would have found it tougher to build. Just for example, Cincinnati built a subway system, a tunnel all through the city. It never has opened. They built it. You can still see the holes in the ground where it's supposed to come out. By the time they built it, people weren't riding trains anymore. And so it's there now and they don't know what to do with it. And that's 80 years ago. So it's a very complicated—I don't mean to make these issues. They're much more complex than I'm speaking of. And I just think it's unfair to blame Moses for the problems of the city. I think he did as much as anybody to try to bring the city into the 21st century, which he didn't live to. But you've got to adopt. You've got to have a hybrid model in the world now. And I think the model that America needs to follow is a model where we reduce our dependence on the cars and somehow ride buses more or use the internet more or whatever it is, but stop using so much fossil fuels so that we destroy our environment. And New York, by far, is the most energy efficient place in the United States. Mainly because you live in tall buildings, you have hot floors. It doesn't really cost much to heat places because you're heating the floor below you and above you. And you don't have outside walls. And you walk. New Yorkers are thinner. Many more people take buses and subways in New York than anywhere else in the United States, not just in absolute terms, in relative terms. So they're helping. It's probably a healthier lifestyle to walk around. And I think we're rediscovering it. For example, if you come to New York between Thanksgiving and Christmas, there's so many tourists in the city. I'm not making this up. That there is gridlock on the sidewalks around. The police have to direct the traffic. And in part, it's because a Detroit grandmother wants to bring her granddaughter to New York to see what Hudson's, which is a great department store in Detroit or in any city. We could be rich as in Atlanta, Fox, G Fox and Hartford. Every city had these giant department and windows where the Santa Claus is and stuff like this. You can still go to New York and see that. You can say, Jane, this is the way it used to be in Detroit. People ringing the bells and looking at the store windows and things like that. A mall can't recapture that. It just can't. You try, but it's not the same thing. And so I think that in a way, Moses didn't not only did he not destroy New York. I think he gets a little bit of credit for saving it because it might have been on the way to Detroit. Again, I'm not saying that it would have been Detroit because Detroit's almost empty. But Baltimore wasn't just Baltimore, it's Cleveland. It's every place. There's nobody there anymore. And even in New York, the department stores have mostly closed, not all of them. And so it's not the same as it was 80 years ago, but it's closer to it than anywhere else.Dwarkesh Patel 0:42:16OK, so yes, I'm actually very curious to get your opinion on the following question. Given the fact that you are an expert on New York history and you know, you've written the encyclopedia, literally written the encyclopedia on New York City.Kenneth Jackson 0:42:30800 people wrote the encyclopedia. I just took all the credit for it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:42:34I was the editor in chief. So I'm actually curious, is Caro actually right that you talked about the importance just earlier about counterfactual history. So I'm curious if Caro is actually right about the claim that the neighborhoods through which Moses built his highways were destroyed in a way that neighborhoods which were in touch by the highways weren't. Sorry for the confusing phrasing there. But basically, was there like a looking back on all these neighborhoods? Is there a clear counterfactual negative impact on the neighborhoods in which Moses built his highways and bridges and so on?Kenneth Jackson 0:43:10Well, Moses, I mean, Caro makes that argument mostly about East Tremont and places like that in the Bronx where the Cross Bronx Expressway passed through. And he says this perfectly wonderful Jewish neighborhood that was not racially prejudiced and everybody was happy and not leaving was destroyed by Moses. Well, first of all, as a historian of New York City, or for that matter, any city, if a student comes to you and says, that's what I found out, you said, well, you know, that runs counter to the experience of every city. So let's do a little more work on that. Well, first of all, if you look at the census tracts or the residential security maps of S.H.A. You know, it's not true. First of all, the Jews were leaving and had nothing to do with the thing. They didn't love blacks. And also, if you look at other Jewish, and the Bronx was called the Jewish borough at the time, those neighborhoods that weren't on the Cross Bronx Expressway all emptied out mostly. So the Bronx itself was a part of New York City that followed the pattern of Detroit and Baltimore and Cleveland. Bronx is now coming back, but it's a different place. So I think it's, well, I've said this in public and I'll pay you for this. Carol wouldn't know those neighborhoods if he landed there by parachute. They're much better than he ever said they were. You know, he acted like if you went outside near the Bronx County Courthouse, you needed a wagon train to go. I mean, I've taken my students there dozens of times and shown them the people, the old ladies eating on the benches and stuff like this. Nobody's mugging them. You know, he just has an outsider's view. He didn't know the places he was writing about. But I think Carol was right about some things. Moses was personally a jerk. You can make it stronger than that, but I mean, he was not your friendly grandfather. He was arrogant. He was self-centered. He thought he knew the truth and you don't. He was vindictive, ruthless, but some of those were good. You know, now his strategies, his strategies in some were good. He made people building a beach or a building feel like you're building a cathedral. You're building something great and I'm going to pay you for it and let's make it good. Let's make it as best as we can. That itself is a real trick. How do you get people to think of their jobs as more than a job, as something else? Even a beach or a wall or something like that to say it's good. He also paid them, so that's important that he does that and he's making improvements. He said he was improving things for the people. I don't know if you want to talk about Jane Jacobs, who was his nemesis. I tend to vote with Jane Jacobs. Jane Jacobs and I agree on a lot of things or did before she died a few years ago. Jane Jacobs saw the city as intricate stores and people living and walking and knowing each other and eyes on the street and all these kinds of things. Moses didn't see that at all. He saw the city as a traffic problem. How do we tear this down and build something big and get people the hell out of here? That was a mistake. Moses made mistakes. What Moses was doing was what everybody in the United States was doing, just not as big and not as ruthless and not as quick. It was not like Moses built a different kind of world that exists in Kansas City. That's exactly what they did in Kansas City or every other city. Blow the damn roads to the black neighborhoods, build the expressway interchanges, my hometown of Memphis crisscrossed with big streets, those neighborhoods gone. They're even more extensive in places like Memphis and Kansas City and New Orleans than they are in New York because New York builds relatively fewer of them. Still huge what he built. You would not know from the power broker that Los Angeles exists. Actually Los Angeles was building freeways too. Or he says that New York had more federal money. Then he said, well, not true. I've had students work on Chicago and Chicago is getting more money per person than New York for some of these projects. Some of the claims, no doubt he got those from Moses' own records. If you're going to write a book like this, you got to know what's going on other places. Anyway, let's go back to your questions.Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:10No, no. That was one of the things I was actually going to ask you about, so I was glad to get your opinion on that. You know, actually, I've been preparing for this interview and trying to learn more about the impact of these different projects. I was trying to find the economic literature on the value of these highways. There was a National Bureau of Economic Research paper by Morgan Foy, or at least a digest by Morgan Foy, where he's talking about the economic gains from highways. He says, the gains tend to be largest in areas where roads connect large economic hubs where few alternative routes exist. He goes on to say, two segments near New York City have welfare benefits exceeding $500 million a year. Expanding the Long Island Expressway had an estimated economic value of $719 million, which I think was Moses. He says, of the top 10 segments with the highest rate of return, seven are in New York City area. It turns out that seven of the top 10 most valuable highway segments in America are in New York. Reading that, it makes me suspect that there must have been... The way Cairo paints Moses' planning process, it's just very impulsive and feelings-based and almost in some cases, out of malice towards poor people. Given that a century later, it seems that many of the most valuable tracks of highways were planned and built exactly how Moses envisioned, it makes you think that there was some sort of actual intelligent deliberation and thought that was put into where they were placed.Kenneth Jackson 0:50:32I think that's true. I'm not saying that the automobile didn't have an economic impact. That's what Moses was building for. He would probably endorse that idea. I think that what we're looking at now in the 21st century is the high value put on places that Moses literally thought were something. He was going to run an expressway from Brooklyn through lower Manhattan to New Jersey and knock down all these buildings in Greenwich Village that people love now. Love. Even movie stars, people crowd into those neighborhoods to live and that he saw it as a slum. Well, Moses was simply wrong and Cairo puts him to task for that. I think that's true.0:51:24 The Rise of NIMBYismDwarkesh Patel 0:51:24Okay. Professor Jackson, now I want to discuss how the process of city planning and building projects has changed since Moses' time. We spent some good amount of time actually discussing what it was like, what Moses actually did in his time. Last year, I believe, you wrote an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal talking about how the 27-story building in Manhattan was put in limbo because the parking lot, which we would replace, was part of a historic district. What is it like to actually build a skyscraper or a highway or a bridge or anything of that sort in today's New York City?Kenneth Jackson 0:52:06Well, I do think in the larger context, it's probably fair to say it's tougher to build in New York City than any other city. I mean, yeah, a little precious suburb, you may not deploy a skyscraper, but I mean, as far as the city is concerned, there'll be more opposition in New York than anywhere else.It's more dense, so just to unload and load stuff to build a building, how do you do that? You know, trucks have to park on the street. Everything is more complicated and thus more expensive. I think a major difference between Robert Moses' time and our own, in Robert Moses' time, historic preservation was as yet little known and little understood and little supported. And the view generally was building is good, roads are good, houses are good, and they're all on the way to a more modern and better world. We don't have the same kind of faith in the future that they did. We kind of like it like it is. Let's just sit on it. So I think we should say that Moses had an easier time of it than he would have had he lived today. It still wasn't an easy time, but easier than today. Yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:40Well, actually, can you talk more about what that change in, I guess, philosophy has been since then? I feel like that's been one of the themes of this podcast, to see how our cultural attitude towards progress and technology have changed.Kenneth Jackson 0:53:54Well, I think one reason why the power broker, Robert Carroll's famous book, received such popular acclaim is it fits in with book readers' opinions today, which is old is better. I mean, also, you got to think about New York City. If you say it's a pre-war apartment, you mean it's a better apartment. The walls are solid plaster, not fiber or board and stuff like that. So old has a reverence in New York that doesn't have in Japan. In Japan, they tear down houses every 15 years. So it's a whole different thing. We tend to, in this new country, new culture, we tend to value oldness in some places, especially in a place that's old like New York City. I mean, most Americans don't realize that New York is not only the most dense American city and the largest, but also really the oldest. I mean, I know there's St. Augustine, but that's taking the concept of what's a city to a pretty extreme things. And then there's Jamestown and Virginia, but there's nobody there, literally nobody there. And then where the pilgrims landed in Massachusetts, Plymouth plantation, that's totally rebuilt as a kind of a theme park. So for a place that's a city, it's Santa Fe a little bit in New Mexico, but it was a wide place on the road until after World War II. So the places that would be also, if you think cities, New York is really old and it's never valued history, but the historic preservation movement here is very strong.Dwarkesh Patel 0:55:33What is the reason for its resurgence? Is it just that, because I mean, it's had a big impact on many cities, right? Like I'm in San Francisco right now, and obviously like you can't tear down one of these Victorian houses to build the housing that like the city massively needs. Why have we like gained a reverence for anything that was built before like 80 years?Kenneth Jackson 0:55:56Because just think of the two most expensive places in the United States that could change a little bit from year to year, but usually San Francisco and New York. And really if you want to make it more affordable, if you want to drop the price of popsicles on your block, sell more popsicles. Have more people selling popsicles and the price will fall. But somehow they say they're going to build luxury housing when actually if you build any housing, it'll put downward pressure on prices, even at super luxury. But anyway, most Americans don't understand that. So they oppose change and especially so in New York and San Francisco on the basis that change means gentrification. And of course there has been a lot of gentrification. In World War II or right after, San Francisco was a working class city. It really was. And huge numbers of short and longshoremen live there. Now San Francisco has become the headquarters really in Silicon Valley, but a headquarters city is a tech revolution and it's become very expensive and very homeless. It's very complex. Not easy to understand even if you're in the middle of it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:57:08Yeah. Yeah. So if we could get a Robert Moses back again today, what major mega project do you think New York needs today that a Moses like figure could build?Kenneth Jackson 0:57:22Well if you think really broadly and you take climate change seriously, as I think most people do, probably to build some sort of infrastructure to prevent rising water from sinking the city, it's doable. You'd have to, like New Orleans, in order to save New Orleans you had to flood Mississippi and some other places. So usually there is a downside somewhere, but you could, that would be a huge project to maybe build a bridge, not a bridge, a land bridge from Brooklyn to Manhattan to prevent water coming in from the ocean because New York is on the ocean. And to think of something like that's really big. Some of the other big infrastructure projects, like they're talking about another tunnel under the river, Hudson River from New Jersey to New York, the problem with that is there are already too many cars in Manhattan. Anything that makes it easier to bring cars into Manhattan because if you've not been to New York you don't really understand this, but there's no place for anything. And if you bring more cars in, what are you going to do with them? If you build parking garages for all the cars that could come into the city, then you'd be building over the whole city. There'd be no reason to come here because it would all be parking garages or parking lots. So New York City simply won't work if you reduce the density or you get rid of underground transportation because it's all about people moving around underneath the streets and not taking up space as they do it. So it won't work. And of course, it's not the only city. Tokyo wouldn't work either or lots of cities in the world won't work increasingly without not just public transportation but underground public transportation where you can get it out of the way of traffic and stuff like that. Moses probably could have done that. He wouldn't have loved it as much as he loved bridges because he wanted you to see what he built. And there was an argument in the power broker, but he didn't really want the Brooklyn battle very tunnel built because he wanted to build a bridge that everybody could see. So he may not have done it with such enthusiasm. I actually believe that Moses was first and foremost a builder. He really wanted to build things, change things. If you said, we'll pay you to build tunnels, I think he would have built tunnels. Who knows? He never was offered that. That wasn't the time in which he lived. Yeah. Okay.Dwarkesh Patel 1:00:04And I'm curious if you think that today to get rid of, I guess the red tape and then the NIMBYism, would it just be enough for one man to accumulate as much influence as Moses had and then to push through some things or does that need to be some sort of systemic reform? Because when Moses took power, of course there was ours also that Tammany Hall machine that he had to run through, right? Is that just what's needed today to get through the bureaucracy or is something more needed?Kenneth Jackson 1:00:31Well, I don't think Robert Moses with all of his talents and personality, I don't think he could do in the 21st century what he did in the middle of the 20th century. I think he would have done a lot, maybe more than anybody else. But also I think his methods, his really bullying messages, really, really, he bullied people, including powerful people. I don't think that would work quite as easy today, but I do think we need it today. And I think even today, we found even now we have in New York, just the beginnings of leftists. I'm thinking of AOC, the woman who led the campaign against Amazon in New York saying, well, we need some development. If we want to make housing more affordable, somebody has got to build something. It's not that we've got more voter because you say you want affordable housing. You got to build affordable housing and especially you got to build more of it. So we have to allow people, we have to overturn the NIMBYism to say, well, even today for all of our concern about environmental change, we have to work together. I mean, in some ways we have to believe that we're in some ways in the same boat and it won't work if we put more people in the boat, but don't make the boat any bigger. Yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 1:01:59But when people discuss Moses and the power accumulated, they often talk about the fact that he took so much power away from democratically elected officials and the centralized so much power in himself. And obviously the power broker talks a great deal about the harms of that kind of centralization. But I'm curious having studied the history of New York, what are the benefits if there can be one coordinated cohesive plan for the entire city? So if there's one person who's designing all the bridges, all the highways, all the parks, is something more made possible that can be possible if like multiple different branches and people have their own unique visions? I don't know if that question makes sense.Kenneth Jackson 1:02:39That's a big question. And you've got to put a lot of trust into the grand planner, especially if a massive area of 20, 25 million people, bigger than the city, I'm not sure what you're really talking about. I think that in some ways we've gone too far in the ability to obstruct change, to stop it. And we need change. I mean, houses deteriorate and roads deteriorate and sewers deteriorate. We have to build into our system the ability to improve them. And now in New York we respond to emergencies. All of a sudden a water main breaks, the street collapses and then they stop everything, stop the water main break and repair the street and whatever it is. Meanwhile in a hundred other places it's leaking, it's just not leaking enough to make the road collapse. But the problem is there every day, every minute. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.1:03:44 Is Progress CyclicalDwarkesh Patel 1:03:44I'm curious, as a professor, I mean you've studied American history. Do you just see this as a cyclical thing where you have periods where maybe one person has too much power to periods where there's dispersed vitocracy and sclerosis and then you're just going to go through these cycles? Or how do you see that in the grand context of things, how do you see where we are, where we were during Moses and where we might be in the future?Kenneth Jackson 1:04:10Well you're right to say that much of life is cyclical. And there is a swing back and forth. But having said that, I think the person like Robert Moses is unusual, partly because he might have gone on to become a hedge fund person or didn't have hedge funds when he was around. But you know, new competitor to Goldman Sachs, I mean he could have done a lot of things, maybe been a general. He wanted to have power and control. And I think that's harder to accumulate now. We have too much power. You can demonstrate and you can stop anything. We love demonstrations in the United States. We respect them. We see it as a visible expression of our democracy, is your ability to get on the streets and block the streets. But you know, still you have to get to work. I mean at some point in the day you've got to do something. And yeah, Hitler could have done a lot of things if he wanted to. He could have made Berlin into a... But you know, if you have all the power, Hitler had a lot of it. If he turned Berlin into a colossal city, he was going to make it like Washington but half-sive. Well Washington has already got its own issues. The buildings are too big. Government buildings don't have life on the street and stuff like this. Like Hitler would destroy it forever because you build a monumental city that's not for people. And I think that was probably one of Moses' weak points is unlike Jane Jacobs who saw people. Moses didn't see people. He saw bridges. He saw highways. He saw tunnels. He saw rivers. He saw the city as a giant traffic problem. Jane Jacobs, who was a person without portfolio most of her life except of her own powers of judgment and persuasion, she thought, well what is the shoe repairman got to do with the grocery store, got to do with the school, got to do with something else? She saw what Moses didn't see. She saw the intricacies of the city. He saw a giant landscape. She saw the block, just the block.Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:45Yeah there's a common trope about socialist and communist which is that they love humanity in the abstract but they hate people as individuals. And it's like I guess one way to describe Robert Moses. It actually kind of reminds me of one of my relatives that's a doctor and he's not exactly a people person. And he says like, you know, I hate like actually having to talk to the patients about like, you know, like ask them questions. I just like the actual detective work of like what is going on, looking at the charts and figuring out doing the diagnosis. Are you optimistic about New York? Do you think that in the continuing towards the end of the 21st century and into the 22nd century, it will still be the capital of the world or what do you think is the future ofKenneth Jackson 1:07:30the city? Well, The Economist, which is a major publication that comes out of England, recently predicted that London and New York would be in 2100 what they are today, which is the capitals of the world. London is not really a major city in terms of population, probably under 10 million, much smaller than New York and way smaller than Tokyo. But London has a cosmopolitan, heterogeneous atmosphere within the rule of law. What London and New York both offer, which Shanghai doesn't or Hong Kong doesn't at the moment is a system so if you disagree, you're not going to disappear. You know what I mean? It's like there's some level of guarantee that personal safety is sacred and you can say what you want. I think that's valuable. It's very valuable. And I think the fact that it's open to newcomers, you can't find a minority, so minority that they don't have a presence in New York and a physical presence. I mean, if you're from Estonia, which has got fewer people than New York suburbs, I mean individual New York suburbs, but there's an Estonian house, there's Estonian restaurants, there's, you know, India, Pakistan, every place has got an ethnic presence. If you want it, you can have it. You want to merge with the larger community, merge with it. That's fine. But if you want to celebrate your special circumstances, it's been said that New York is everybody's second home because you know if you come to New York, you can find people just like yourself and speaking your language and eating your food and going to your religious institution. I think that's going to continue and I think it's not only what makes the United States unusual, there are a few other places like it. Switzerland is like it, but the thing about Switzerland that's different from the United States is there are parts of Switzerland that are most of it's Swiss German and parts of it's French, but they stay in their one places, you know what I mean? So they speak French here and they speak German there. You know, Arizona and Maine are not that different demographically in the United States. Everybody has shuffled the deck several times and so I think that's what makes New York unique. In London too. Paris a little bit. You go to the Paris underground, you don't even know what language you're listening to. I think to be a great city in the 21st century, and by the way, often the Texas cities are very diverse, San Francisco, LA, very diverse. It's not just New York. New York kind of stands out because it's bigger and because the neighborhoods are more distinct. Anybody can see them. I think that's, and that's what Robert Moses didn't spend any time thinking about. He wasn't concerned with who was eating at that restaurant. Wasn't important, or even if there was a restaurant, you know? Whereas now, the move, the slow drift back towards cities, and I'm predicting that the pandemic will not have a permanent influence. I mean, the pandemic is huge and it's affected the way people work and live and shop and have recreation. So I'm not trying to blow it off like something else, but I think in the long run, we are social animals. We want to be with each other. We need each other, especially if you're young, you want to be with potential romantic partners. But even other people are drawn. Just a few days ago, there was a horrible tragedy in Seoul, Korea. That's because 100,000 young people are drawn to each other. They could have had more room to swing their arms, but they wanted to crowd into this one alley because that's where other people were. They wanted to go where other people were. That's a lot about the appeal of cities today. We've been in cars and we've been on interstate highways. At the end of the day, we're almost like cats. We want to get together at night and sleep on each other or with each other. I think that's the ultimate. It's not for everybody. Most people would maybe rather live in a small town or on the top of a mountain, but there's a percentage of people. Let's call it 25% who really want to be part of the tumble in the tide and want to be things mixed up. They will always want to be in a place like New York. There are other places, San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia a little bit. They're not mainly in the United States, but in Europe, Copenhagen. Copenhagen is not a big city, neither is Prague, but they have urbanity. New York has urbanity. I think we don't celebrate urbanity as much as we might. The pure joy of being with others.1:12:36 Friendship with CaroDwarkesh Patel 1:12:36Yeah. I'm curious if you ever got a chance to talk to Robert Caro himself about Moses at someKenneth Jackson 1:12:45point. Robert Caro and I were friends. In fact, when the power broker received an award, the Francis Parkman Prize from the Society of American Historians, it turned out we lived near each other in the Bronx. And I drove him home and we became friends and social friends. And I happened to be with him on the day that Robert Moses died. We were with our wives eating out in a neighborhood called Arthur Avenue. The real Little Italy of New York is in the Bronx. It's also called Be

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with filmmaker Eric Mendelsohn, who revisits the lessons he learned while making his debut feature film, “Judy Berlin.”LINKSJudy Berlin Trailer: https://youtu.be/23PlEaTy9WAEdie Falco Interview about Judy Berlin: https://youtu.be/AoC5q5N-6kYA Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcast***TRANSCRIPT -EPISODE 106Eric Mendelson Interview [JUDY BERLIN SOUNDBITE] JohnThat was a soundbite from “Judy Berlin,” which was written and directed by today's guest, Eric Mendelsohn. Hello and welcome to episode 106 of The Occasional Film podcast -- the occasional companion podcast to the Fast, Cheap Movie Thoughts Blog. I'm the blog's editor, John Gaspard. Judy Berlin, starring Edie Falco, as well as Madeline Kahn, Bob Dishy, Barbara Barrie and Julie Kavner, was Eric Mendelsohn's feature film debut. The film was an Official Selection of the Cannes Film Festival … won Best Director at Sundance … Best Independent Film at the Hamptons Film Festival … and was nominated for three Independent Spirit Awards. Eric is currently the Professor of Professional Practice, Film, at Columbia University. I first spoke to Eric about Judy Berlin years and years ago, for my book, Fast Cheap and Under Control: Lessons Learned from the Greatest Low-Budget Movies of All Time. In the course of that interview, Eric laid out a handful of really smart filmmaking lessons – lessons that, if followed, might be the difference between making a successful film … or making no film at all. I was curious: What did Eric think about those lessons, all these years later? Before we got into that, though, we talked about the origins of Judy Berlin … [MUSIC TRANSTION] John What was the impetus that made Judy Berlin happen? Eric It's answerable in a more general way. When I get interested in making a script or making a film, it's because a group of feelings and images almost in a synesthesia kind of way, come together and I get a feeling and I say, oh, yeah, that would be fun. And for Judy Berlin, the set of feelings were definitely having to do with melancholy, hopefulness, the suburbs and my intimate feelings about them being a fresh place that I hadn't seen, represented in the way I experienced them. Things as abstract as how everyone feels in autumn time, I guess, maybe everyone does. I don't know. Maybe there are some people who are just blissfully unaware of all those sad feelings of you know, autumn, but I felt like they were worth reproducing if maybe they hadn't been in that particular locale. I think this is a funny thing to say but against all of that sadness, and kind of hope against hope, being hopeful against hopelessness, I had this sound of a score to a Marvin Hamlisch score to Take the Money and Run. And I actually asked him to do the music and he said he didn't understand such sadness that was in the movies that this isn't something I do. Which is really true and I didn't get it and I wanted to persist and say no, but that score for Take the Money and Run, that has such like almost like a little kids hopefulness about it. That's what I wanted. It was like a river running underneath the ground of the place that I had grown up with. And I think the other inspiration for the movie was pretty, I don't know, maybe it's called plagiarism. Maybe it's called inspiration, the collected feeling that you can distill from the entire works of Jacques Demy, and I loved Jacques Demy 's films. They gave me a license. I saw them and said, Well, if you can mythologize your own little town in the northwest of France that maybe seems like romantic to Eric Mendelsohn from old Bethpage, Long Island, New York but truly is a kind of a unremarkable place at the time it was made, that I can do it with my town. I can mythologize everybody, and love them and hate them and talk about them and so those are some of the feelings that went into it. John But they all came through. So, what I want to do is just go through the handful of lessons that you told me X number of years ago, and let's see what you think about them now. So, one of the big ones that turns up again and again, when I talked to filmmakers was the idea of write to your resources. And in the case of Judy Berlin, you told me that that's a great idea and you thought you were: It takes place over one day with a bunch of characters in one town. When in fact you were really making things quite difficult for yourself by having middle aged people with homes and cars and businesses and professional actors who all had other things going on. Eric 03:35And multiple storylines is a terrible idea for low budget movie making. Each actor thought oh, I'm in a little short film. I, however, was making a $300,000 movie about 19 characters. What a stupid guy I was. John 03:53Do you really think it was stupid? Eric 03:54It was. You know, everyone says this after you have graduated from that kind of mistake or once you've done it, you look back and say I would only have done that because I didn't know any better. I know you haven't finished your question. But I also want to say that writing or creating from ones' resources also includes what you are able to do, what you are able to manufacture. In other words, I didn't have enough writing skill to concentrate on two characters or one character in house, like Polanski, in his first endeavors. I didn't I had small ideas for many characters. It's much more difficult to write a sustained feature film with two people. So, I was writing to my resources in a number of ways, not just production, but in my ability as a writer at that point. John 04:53Yeah, you're right. It is really hard. I don't know why they always say if you're gonna make a low budget movie, have it be two people in a room. That's really hard to do. The idea of let's just tell a bunch of stories does seem easier and I've done that myself a couple times and it is for low budget easier in many respects. My stuff is super low budget, no one's getting paid. We're doing it on weekends, and you can get some really good actors to come over for a couple days and be really great in their part of the movie and then you put it all together. Another advantage is if you have multiple stories, I learned this from John Sayles in Returns of the Secaucus Seven, he said I couldn't move the camera. So, I just kept moving the story. It allowed him to just, I can't move the camera, but I can move to the next scene, I can move to these people, or I can move to those people there. And it also allows you an editing a lot of freedom, because you can shift and move and do things. So, the downside you had of course was on just a strictly production shooting day level, very hard to do what you were doing. But it did allow you to grow a bit as a writer because you're able to write a lot of different kinds of characters and different kinds of scenes. Eric 05:57Remember, I always say this, you know, you sit in your room, and I believe you need to do this as a writer, you sit in your room and you say to yourself, she slams a car door harder than usual. And then you realize later she drives a car, where am I going to get a car from? She enters her house. How am I going to get a house and if I have seven characters, and they all have cars, that's a job in itself. One person could spend their summer looking for seven cars. But that's the least of your problems. When it's houses, cars, clothing, handbags, all of it. John 06:30Yeah, when you're starting out, you don't necessarily realize that every time you say cut to something in your script, that's a thing. You've got to get it. I did a feature once that had four different stories and there are four different writers and a writer came to me with his finished script, which was brilliant, but it was like 14, 15 locations that I had to shoot over two days. So, how do you do that? Well, you end up spending four days on it. But the other hand, another writer who understood screenwriting, handed me a script that was four locations, but brilliantly combined and figured out. So, in two days, you could shoot them all because he knew what he was doing. And that's something you don't necessarily learn until you're standing there at six in the morning with a crew going, I don't know what I'm doing right now, because I screwed myself up and I wrote it and that's sometimes the only way you can learn it. Eric 07:16I think it's the only way. The only way. Look, you can be precautious, you can, it's no different than life, your parents can warn you about terrible, ruinous, stupid, love affairs that are going to wreck you for a year. Are you really going to just not get into them because of what smart older people said? You throw yourself at a film in the way that hopefully you throw yourself at love affairs. You're cautious and then you've just got to experience it. And I think the difference obviously is in film, you're using lots of people's time, effort money, and you do want to go into it with smarts and planning. I still say that you should plan 160%. Over plan in other words. And then the erosion that naturally happens during production, this crew member stinks and had to be fired a day before. This location was lost. This actress can't perform the scene in one take because of memory problems. All of that is going to impact your film. Let's say it impacts it 90%. Well, if you plan to 160%, you're still in good shape in the footage that you get at the end of the production. John 08:29Yeah, I'm smiling, because you're saying a lot of the things you said last time, which means it's still very true. Alright, the next lesson was, and this is one that I've embraced forever: No money equals more control. You spoke quite eloquently about the fact that people wanted to give you more money to make Judy Berlin if you would make the following changes. Looking back on it did you make the right decisions on that one? Eric 08:51Yes. I'll tell you something interesting. Maybe I didn't say this last time. But I remember my agent at the time saying to me, we could get you a lot of money. Why don't you halt production? We'll get you so much money that will get you--and this is the line that always stuck in my head-- all the bells and whistles you want. Now, I'm going to be honest with you what he said scared me for two reasons. One, I had worked in production for a long time in my life and I knew that if you stall anything, it just doesn't happen. It just doesn't. That the energy of rolling downhill is better than sitting on the hill, potential energy and trying to amass funds. But another thing and I was scared privately because I said to myself, I don't even know what the bells and whistles are. I'm afraid to tell him that I don't know what they are. And I'd rather I think that's those bells and whistles are for some other savvy filmmaker that I'll maybe become later. But right now I have the benefit of not knowing enough and I'm going to throw myself and my planning and my rigorous militaristic marshalling of people and props and costume names and locations and script. I'm gonna throw that all at the void and do it my cuckoo way because once I learned how to make a movie better, I'll have lost a really precious thing, which is my really, really raw, naive, hopeful, abstract sense of what this could be. And that thing that I just said with all those words was not just a concept. I didn't know what I was making, in the best sense possible. I was shooting for something, shooting it for an emotional goal, or a visual goal for a dramatic goal but I didn't put a name on it. I didn't put a genre to it. So much so that by the time I got to the Sundance Film Festival, and I read the first line of a capsule review, and it said, A serio-comic suburban. I almost cried, I felt so bad that I didn't know what I was making in an objective sense. In a subjective sense, obviously, I knew exactly what I was trying to do. But objectively, I didn't know it could be summed up by a review. And it hurt me so badly to think I was so mockable and now I'm going to embarrass myself by telling you what I thought I was making. I didn't think I was making something that could have a boldface thing that said, serio comic, multi character, suburban fairy tale. I didn't know that. I really thought I was like writing in glitter on black velvet or I don't know, I didn't even know that it could just be summed up so easily. And I think I've written a lot of scripts since that one, and many haven't gotten made, but each time I reject and issue an objective determination of what the thing is that I'm working on, prior to sitting down. Is that the best way to work? It is a painful way to work. My friends will tell you that. I have my great friend and filmmaker Rebecca Dreyfus always says that I have creative vertigo, that I don't know what I'm doing for months and years on end and then I looked down and I say, Oh, God, I think it's a horror film. Or I think I've rewritten a Dickens story. And I get a nauseated kind of, you know, dolly in rack, focus thing. It's not, I'm telling you, I'm not describing a creative process that is painful for me to realize, always later on what I'm doing. And I still hold, that's the only way I can do it. I will not go into a screenplay and then a film saying this is a serio comic black and white, multi character, suburban, who wants that? I go in thinking, I'm making something that I don't know, that no one's seen before and then we'll see what they think. John 12:54You know, we were very similar, you and I in that regard. In addition to low budget, filmmaking, as I've gotten older, I've gotten into novel writing and mystery writing, which I enjoy. And the parallels between independent publishing and independent filmmaking are really close. One of the things that people say all the time in independent publishing that I back away from is you have to write to market. You have to know who your audience is, what they like, and write a book for them. And I can't do that. I can write a book for me that, you know, if I slip into dementia in 20 years and read it, I won't remember writing it, but I would enjoy it because all the jokes are for me and all the references are for me... Eric 13:32I think you and me, doing the exact right thing, according to me. And you'll be happy to know, because I teach at Columbia Columbia's film grad school, we have an unbelievable group of alumni people, you know, like, you know, Jennifer Lee, who created Frozen and the people behind Making of a Murderer and Zootopia. And all they ever say when they come back to speak to our students is nobody wants a writer who is writing to the industry. They want something they haven't seen before that is new, fresh, odd, and still steaming be you know, out of the birth canal. John 14:14Yep. The corollary to that, that I tell people who are writing and also people who are filmmakers who want to work that way is the more you can take economics out of the process, the more you're able to not need to make money from what you're doing, the happier you're going to be. Because every movie I've ever made has never made money and it didn't matter. It wasn't the purpose. The purpose was, oh, this is interesting idea. Let's explore this with these 12 actors and see what happens. But if you can take economics out of it, you completely free. Eric 14:41You free and I'll tell you what, I know. Again, it's just a perspective, one person's perspective. But everyone, you know, you want to leave on the earth some things that you felt good about, whether they're children or ethics or some civic thing you did for your town, or a movie. And all the people I know who made tons of money always are talking about coming back to their roots because they're so unhappy. Like, I get it. I get it. And all these actors who want to do work for no money, it's because they feel like well, I sure I made a ton of money, but I didn't get to do any of the stuff I really care about. I remember in my first real attempt at filmmaking after film school, a short half hour film that starred the late Anne Meara and Cynthia Nixon in an early film role and F Murray Abraham did the voiceover. And I was 20 something years old, and the film did very well and it was just a half hour movie and we showed it at the Museum of Modern Art. And after the screening, a woman came up to me and I don't remember what language she was speaking. She was Asian, and she tried to explain to her to me, what the movie meant to her, but she spoke no English and she kept tapping her heart and looking at me. Anne Meara was standing next to me and she kept pointing like and then making a fist and pounding her chest and pointing to like a screen in the air, as if she was referencing the movie. And then she went away. Anne Meara said, listen to me now, it will never get better than that. I understand completely. For the movie I made after Judy Berlin, which is called Three Backyards and a movie I produced and cowrote after that, called Love After Love. I didn't read the reviews. Who cares? John 16:27Yeah, that's a pretty special experience and good for her to point that out to you. Eric 16:31Her husband in a bar after a production of The Three Sisters told me that--this is pretty common. This is Jerry Stiller, the late great comedian said to me, I was about to tell him what the New York Times had said about his performance. He said, no, no, no, don't. Because if you believe the good ones, then you have to believe the bad ones. And I've since known that that is something that's said a lot. But if a review isn't going to help you make your next movie, then don't read it. Marlena Dietrich, in my favorite last line, paraphrased from any movie, gets at why criticism is unimportant for the artist. In the end of Touch of Evil, she says, “what does it matter what you say about other people.” It's just, you either do or they did to you or you experience all that garbage of what people say it goes in the trash, no one except for maybe James Agee's book, there's very few film criticism books that people are desperate to get to, you know, in 50 years. But you take a bad movie, I watched some summer camp killer movie the other night, and I thought I'd rather watch this than read what somebody said about this movie. I'd rather watch somebody's earnest attempt to fling themselves at the universe than a critics commentary upon it. Yeah. Anyone who gets up at five in the morning to go make a movie has my respect and I don't even you know, on the New York Times comments online commentary site, I refused when it's about artwork to come in even anonymously. Nope! John 18:05Okay. You did touch on this. But it's so important and people forget it. I phrased it as time is on your side. You talked about being prepared 160% and having Judy Berlin, every day, there were two backups in case for some reason, something didn't happen and the advantage you had was you had no money. But you had time and you could spend the time necessary doing months of pre-production, which is the certainly the least sexy part of filmmaking, but is maybe the most important and is never really talked about that much. How much you can benefit from just sitting down and putting the schedule down? I mean, we used to, I'm sure with Judy Berlin, you're using strips and you're moving them around and when we did our 16-millimeter features, we didn't even spend the money on the board. We made our own little strips, and we cut them out and did all that. You can do it now on computers, it's much easier, but it's having that backup and that backup to the backup. You don't really need it until you need it and then you can't get it unless you've put it in place already. Eric 19:06Well, I'll say this, I have to disabuse some of my students at Columbia by telling them that there is no like effete artist who walks onto a set-in filmmaking with no idea about scheduling. That character fails in filmmaking. That every single director is a producer, and you cannot be stupid about money, and you cannot be stupid about planning and in fact, Cass Donovan who is an amazing AD and one of my good friends. She and I sometimes used to do a seminar for young filmmakers about scheduling your movie and I always used to say, you know, a good schedule is a beautiful expression of your movie, where you put your emphasis. And it comes out in the same way that people say like oh, I just like dialogue and characters. I'm not good at structure. There's no such things. You need at least to understand that a good structure for your story can be a beautiful, not restrictive, rigorous device that's applied to your artistry, a structure and a story is a beautiful can be a beautiful thing and the expression of the story and the same thing is true with the schedule. The schedule is an expression of your story's emphases. If your story and your resources are about actors, and you've got an amazing group of people who are only doing the project and lending their experience and talent, because they thought this was a chance to act and not be hurried. Well, that expresses itself in how many days and how many shots you're going to schedule them in. And I love how a schedule expresses itself into an amount of days and amount of money and allocation of funding. I love it. There is no better way to find out what your priorities were and I love it. And in terms of planning, one of the reasons I don't understand or have an inkling to investigate theater is I don't want something that goes on every evening without my control, where the actors sort of do new things or try stuff out and the carefully plotted direction that you created can get wobbly and deformed over time. Instead, I like the planning of a script and now I'm not talking about pre-production. I'm talking about I like that, with screenwriting, you go down in your basement for as long as you need. So, maybe I'm afraid of shame and I don't like to present stuff that is so obviously wrong to whole groups of people. I like to go down in the basement for both the writing and the pre-production and get the thing right. You know, there are so many ways to make a movie that I'll also I want to place myself in a specific school of filmmaking. To this point in my directing life, I've created scripts that are meant to be executed in the sense that not as disciplined in execution as what Hitchcock or David Lean, we're shooting for, but not as loose an experiment as Cassavetes, or let's say, Maurice Pilar. We're going for, everyone has to find their own expression. In other words, if you are Maurice Pilar or Cassavetes, or Lucrecia Martel, you have to find your own equation, you have to find your own pre-production/production equation where the room for experimentation. I haven't really wanted to experiment on set, I know what shots I want, and I get them. The next film I make may be different. But everyone has a different equation and every script and every director are going to find their own priorities that are expressed in the project and then the execution. The fun thing was, the last movie I worked on, was something I've produced and co-wrote ,called Love After Love. And that was directed and co-written by Russ, and Russ and I spent years writing a script that we knew that was intended to be elastic, and to be a jumping off ground for the kind of impromptu directing he does. Now, a lot of what we wrote ended up in the movie, but sometimes he would call me from the set and say, this isn't working and that was exciting, because we knew that would happen. And he told the cast and the crew before they went into the project, before they went into the short film he made before that called Rolling on the Floor Laughing. This is intended to be a porous experiment ,with a firm spine of drama that is not porous. So, we've created a drama and interrelations in that script that then he went off, and those couldn't budge. Those were fixed the dramatic principles and dynamics. But he worked as a director in a completely different way than me and I was very happy to loosen my own way of working and then as a producer, make sure that he had what he needed on the set, and that the pre-production, production and even editing--we took a year to edit that film--was based in an idiosyncratic methodology of his particular artistry, not mine. John 24:34And why I think is so interesting about that is that you know, you made sure that everybody involved knew going in we're doing this kind of movie and this kind of movie has … I remember talking to Henry Jaglom, about I don't know which movie it was, you know, Henry has a very loose style of what he does. But it's still a movie, and he was talking about, he was shooting a scene and an actress either jumped into a swimming pool or push somebody into a swimming pool. And he said, Why did you do that? She said, I was in the moment. Yeah, and he said, yes, this is a movie and now I have to dry these people off and I have to do the coverage on the other side. So, you need to know where the lines are, how improvised is this really. Eric 25:15And everyone has different lines, and you make movies to find out how you make movies. You write screenplays to find out what that feeling is and whether or not you can interest an audience in it. You don't write a screenplay to execute Syd Fields, ideas about story or the hero's journey. I'm not a hero. I don't have a hero's journey. I have my journey. The task, the obligation is to see if I can take that and still make it dramatic and interesting to a group of hostile strangers, normally called an audience, John 25:52As Harry Anderson used to say, if you have a bunch of people all seated facing the same direction, do you owe them something. Eric 25:58Yeah, it's unbelievable. A friend of mine who works in theater saw a terrible show and he works on Broadway, and he works on all the big shows that you have heard of. So, I can't give the title of this one particular production. And he said, you know, I feel like telling these people because he works in lighting. He said, I feel like telling these people who create these shows that every single audience member who comes to see the show at eight o'clock that night, woke up at seven in the morning, and they're tired, and they worked and you better provide something at eight that night. John 26:33Exactly. I remember talking to Stuart Gordon, the guy who made Reanimator, and he was big in theater before he got into horror films. And he said we had one patron who always brought her husband, and I'll say his name was Sheldon, I forget what the name was. And he would consistently fall asleep during the shows. And my mandate to the cast was our only job is to keep Sheldon awake. Yeah, that's what we're there to do is to keep Sheldon alert and awake. And I think at all the time as you're watching something on film, you're going is that going to keep Sheldon awake, or is that just me having fun? Eric 27:01No, he didn't ask this question, so it's probably not. But a lot of students are not a lot, actually but some students will say to me like, well, what I have to know the history of movies? Why do I have to know that when I'm going to create something new? And I just think because you're not. Because there is a respect for a craft. Forget the art of people who have been doing this for ages. And to not know it puts you in the position of the only person on set who doesn't realize that. Every single crew member is a dramatist: the script supervisor is a dramatist, the set decorator is a dramatist, the costume designer, the cinematographer, the producer. So sometimes my students in directing will say to me, well, I thought this shot was interesting and I said, Okay, you may think that's interesting. But I'm going to tell you something scary right now: your producer, and your editor will know immediately that you don't know what you're doing and that that won't cut. It is not a secret this thing you are doing, this skill. Learn what other people, what the expectations of the art form are, please, and then build from them and break rules and expand but don't do it naively. John 28:06Yeah. When I wrote the first book, it was because I had done an interview with a couple guys who made a movie called The Last Broadcast, which came out right before Blair Witch, which had a similar project process to it. And one of them said to me, he said in talking to film students, one thing I keep seeing is everyone wants to reinvent the wheel. And so I put the book together, because here's all the different lessons, you can you're going to end up learning in one way or another, you might as well read them now and like you say, not find out that that won't cut because it won't cut. It just won't cut. Alright, you did touch on this lesson earlier just in passing, but it's a good one and it's sometimes a tough one. I just called it Fixed Problems Quickly and it was about if there's a crew member who's not part of the team, it's easier to get rid of them two weeks out, then two hours into the shoot. Eric 28:54Yep, it still holds, and it happened on the film I made after Judy Berlin as well. Someone who had worked on Judy Berlin came on to the new production of Three Backyards, and I tried my best to keep this untenable relationship working. But like a rotten root on a plant, it started to rot everything around it, and everyone would like to be the well-liked captain of the ship. But that also means firing crew members sometimes. We had a very, very big key position on that film, and we had to lose them a week before we shot. I'll tell you something else about Three Backyards. It was a week before we shot it. Is it okay that I talked about that? John 29:39Absolutely. We're talking about what you've learned. Eric 29:42Yeah. So, after Judy Berlin I made a film called Three Backyards with Edie Falco and Elias Kotes and host of other people. A very strange movie it was, I am not joking. I haven't said this. So, not that this is some big reveal that anyone gives a shit about but before, a week before we shot it was called Four Backyards. I've never told that because I didn't want anyone to watch it with that mindset and start to say, and we even kept the crew quiet and said, please, we don't want this to get out that it's you know. And I cut out an entire storyline a week before shooting. Now, when I tell you that it was an actor, a very amazing actor in that storyline, the fourth backyard, who I had to call, who was already doing driving around on his motorcycle in the location, going to visit places that had to do with his storyline, costume fittings, everything had been done locations we had gotten, I had to call them and say we're cutting, that your character and that storyline. It was still to this day unbearable. I don't expect you know, the guy is very well known and successful, and you know, has done far more important things than my little movie. But I still feel guilty to this day. I feel nauseous to this day that I did that, that I had to do it. We got to a point where it was clear, the expression of the film called Four Backyards would be running through one take per shot, per setup and running through with no time to work on the characters, no time to give these amazing actors, you know what they wanted. We'd be run and gun and I just said, I'm not this old, you know, to making this movie so that I can re-learn terrible lessons and put these actors through that kind of experience. So, I cut an entire storyline that was dragging down this buoy, let's say in the water and then once we cut it off, and I of course I don't mean the actor or the performance, the potential performance. I mean, the production. Once that fell to the bottom of the sea, the buoy lifted and bounced and righted itself. And I lived with that decision knowing I did the right thing, but that it was hard. We also lost one of the key, we lost our production designer I would say about 15 days before shooting, and that was another one of those kinds of decisions where I said get it done now. I will say this offline on Three Backyards. There was a crew member who had, the minute I shook hands with them, I knew this is that kind of poisonous sniping inconsolable person. But I leave those decisions to department heads and that's not my job to get in and say this person seems awful to me. But that's my feeling. They worked for about, let me say this carefully, they worked and it and became exactly the problem that I had predicted. They initiated a work stoppage that was uncalled for, unprofessional, and everyone was aware. They pretended not to know what location we were going to next and didn't show up. We were delayed I think 40 minutes. On a low budget movie, 40 minutes is unsustainable. And I will just say this, I had to make the decision because we were so deep into the film, whether or not firing that person would cause such bad feelings in the remaining crew or free us up in a way that was similar to what I described earlier. I decided to keep the person and it was I believe the right decision because we were close enough to finishing the film that I believed I would no longer reap benefits from firing them and that leads me to a sentence that I probably told you when I was 20 or whatever how old I was when I spoke to you. I'm now 57. On a movie, you want to be effective not right. In other words, a decision that is morally right on a film which is a temporary, collapsible circus tent where people strangers get together and work for a month, being morally right can hit the main pole of that circus tent really hard and collapse. You want to be effective not right. The right decision in a movie. It is the one that gets forward motion. In that particular case, I took my revenge out later, I kept the person, I bit my tongue and swallowed my pride and said I'm so sorry, let's negotiate. How can we make you happier? However, after we finished production, my more powerful friends in the industry never hired that person again. That person was fired from large TV productions that they were on and given no reason and I felt absolutely thrilled with that. John 34:48Well, it does catch up with you. The next one is one that I use all the time and you just put it very succinctly you said, Fewer Takes, More Shots. Eric 34:57So, I can talk about that. I want to be specific though, that it's for my kind of filmmaking. If you're shooting every scene in one shot, this cannot apply. But in the edit room generally, is a very broad stroke comment, generally, if you're a more conventional visual director who tells stories with shots, you get stuck on one shot in one setup, especially if it's a master and you're trying to get it right. You have no other storytelling ability. You don't have the move in. You don't have the overhead shot. You don't have the insert shot of the finger of the character touching a teaspoon nervously. You don't have any other storytelling ability if you get stuck in one setup. So, a lot of people always say, you know, remember, your first take is probably your best take. That's a good truism. There's an energy that you get from nervous actors, nervous camera operators in a first take. So, sometimes your first take has a great spontaneity about it. Sometimes it lingers for a second or third take. The idea that you are going to beat that dead horse into the ground with subsequent takes going up through 13, 15, 19 to get something perfect flies in the face of the actuality, which is that editing, performance, the rhythm of the eventual scene through shots and takes creates what the audience experiences. That the idea of perfection is a great way to flatten your actors, kill your dialogue, ruin your scene. It's like when I first made a pie ever in my life, nobody taught me and I didn't really look at a book. I was preparing a meal for a woman who was coming up to her country house and I was upstate using the house. And I thought to myself as I carefully cut the butter into the flour and created a little pebbly, beautiful texture, and then gently gathered those pebbles of flour and butter and sugar together into a ball. I mistakenly thought that if I took the rolling pin and roll the life out of it, I would be making the best crust possible. And it tasted it was inedible. It tasted like shoe leather. And I said what did I do wrong? And they said, the object she said to me when she arrived, the object is to gather those delicate, beautiful pebbles together and lightly make it into a crust that retains the little particles, the delicate interstitial hollows. Not to flatten the life out of it. And the same is true about shots. The more angles you have, if that's the way you shoot, create a sense of life. That's about as good as I can say it. John 37:49Well, you know, I want to add just a couple of things. When I did the book, originally, I talked, had a wonderful long conversation with Edie, Falco about Judy Berlin. She was trying to get her brand-new baby to go to sleep while we talk and so it's very quiet recording of her talking. Eric 38:04That's my godson Anderson. John 38:05Oh, that's so sweet. She said about multiple takes. She said there's a perception sometimes with filmmakers that actors are this endless well. And she said, I'm not, I'm just not. Unless you're giving me direction to change something, it's going to be the same or worse. Again, and again. And so you know, of all the lessons from the book that I tell people when I'm making presentations, fewer takes more shots. The thing, a corollary of attitude, is if you're going to do another take, tell them to do it faster, because you're gonna want a faster version of it. You don't realize that right now, but you're gonna want one. Eric 38:38Here's a great way of saying it. I feel people mistake, directors mistakenly think that they are making the film on set. The filming of a movie is a shopping expedition for, drumroll please, ingredients. If you are shooting one take per scene, sure, get it right, you have your own methodology. But if you're going to be telling a story in the traditional narrative way, where a bunch of angles and performances in those shots, setups angles, will eventually tell the story of a scene that let's say for example, goes from pedestrian quotidian to life threatening, remember that you need the ingredients to then cook in the edit room of quotidian, seemingly boring escalating into life threatening. Making a movie on set in production is shopping for the ingredients and you come home and then you forget the recipe and say, what did I get? What was available? What was fresh? What does that mean if you're not talking about food? Well, this actor was amazing, and I lingered on them and I worked on their performance because it's going to be great. That's one of the ingredients you have to work on. In the edit room, this actor was less experienced, and I had to do more setups because they couldn't carry a scene in one shot. That's what I have to work with now in the edit room. When you're in the edit room, you're cooking with the ingredients you got in the fishing expedition called shooting. That's why my students say to me, well, why am I going to get extra footage? Why am I going to get anything but the bare minimum? Why am I going to overlap in terms of, well, you think you're only going to use that angle for two lines, we'll get a line on either side of the dialog, so that you have it in case. And they say, that's not being professional. That's not being precise and accurate. And I'd say it's a fishing expedition, especially if you're starting to learn film. You don't go shopping for a party and say, I think everyone will have about 13 M&Ms. You're buy in bulk, because you're getting like, oh, it's a Halloween party, I'll need a lot of this, a lot of that and a lot of this, and then you cook it later. John 41:04You know, one of the best examples of that is connected to Judy Berlin, because as I remember, you edited that movie on the same flatbed that Annie Hall was edited on... Eric 41:18I still have it, because the contract I made with Woody Allen was that if no one ever contacted me for it, and I bore the expense of having to store it, I would keep it. And so I got it and nobody ever asked for it. Nobody uses it anymore. John 41:34But the making of that movie is exactly that. They had a lot of ingredients and they kept pulling things away to what was going to taste the best and all of a sudden, this massive thing … You know, I was just talking to another editor last weekend, o, I pulled out this, the Ralph Rosenblum's book, but... Eric 41:49Oh, yeah, I was just gonna mention that. The best book on editing ever. John 41:51Although Walter Murch's book was quite good. But this is much more nuts and bolts. Eric 41:56And much more about slapping stuff together to make art. John 42:00That one lesson of: don't spend all day on that one take over and over and over. Let's get some other angles is … Eric 42:06I'll tell you what happens. I may have said this in our first interview, but I will tell you from the inside, what happens. It's terrifying and if you start with a master, a director can get terrified, because to move on means more questions about what's next. Was it good? And you can get paralyzed in your master shot if you're shooting in that manner. And then the actors aren't doing their best work in the master, especially if it's a huge master, where there's tons of stuff going on. They're going to give you some better performance, if you intend to go in for coverage and you by the time you do that you may have lost, you know, their natural resource. They might have expended it already. I've been in that situation where I got lost in my master and you almost have to take a pin on set and hit your own thigh with it and say, wake up, wake up, move on, move on. John 42:58Yeah. All right, I got one more lesson for you, because I'm keeping you way too long. It's a really interesting one, because it's when I talked to Edie about it, she didn't know you had done it and she thought, well, maybe it helped. But Barbara Barrie played her mother in Judy Berlin, they had never met as actors, as people. And you kept them apart until they shot, because you wanted a certain stiffness between them. I just call that Using Reality to Your Advantage. What do you think about that idea now? Eric 43:25Edie isn't someone who requires it, you know, she's one of the best actresses in the world. John 43:30And Barbara Barrie wouldn't have needed it either. I'm sure. Eric 43:32She wouldn't have but I do think there's a … look. This is a funny thing about me and my evolution from Through an Open Window, which is the half hour film, to what I'm writing today. I always thought that film was interesting in the same way that I thought military psyops were interesting: that you could control or guide or influence an audience's experience of the story in ways they were unaware of. So, I always liked those hidden influencers. Even in advertising, I thought they were interesting. You see how this company only uses red and blue and suddenly you feel like, oh, this is a very, this is an American staple this product. I love that shit and after I'm done with a script, I know what I'm intending the audience's experience to be I want to find anything to help me to augment that and if you're a fan of that kind of filmmaking, would the shots have a power outside of the audience's ability to see them? They know that the story is working on them and they think the audience thinks, oh, I was just affected by the story in that great performance. They have no idea that the director has employed a multitude of tricks, depth of field to pop certain actor's faces out as opposed to wider shots that exclude are identifying with other characters, moving shots that for some reason, quote unquote some reason meaning every director is aware of how these techniques influence an audience, suddenly make you feel as if that moment in the story of the character are moving or have power have influence while other moments have nothing. In Three Backyards, funnily enough with Edie, I had a scene where Edie was, the whole, Edie's whole storyline was about her desperate, unconscious attempt to connect with this other woman who was a stranger to her. And I refused to show them in a good two shot throughout the entire film. I separated them. I made unequal singles. When their singles cut, they were unequal singles tighter and wider, until the moment that I had convinced the audience now they're going to become best friends. And I put them into their first good, easy going two shot. And that kind of manipulation is done every moment by every filmmaker directing. In one aspect it is a mute, meaning silent in an unobtrusive, persuasive visual strategy for enhancing the story. So, whether you're keeping two actors away from each other during the course of the day before their first scene, because the scene requires tension, or whether you're separating them visually until a moment late in the movie, where they come together, and they're coming together will suddenly have tension because they're in the same shot. Those kinds of persuasive manipulations are what visual storytelling, otherwise known as directing is about. John 43:33Yep, and there's a lot of tools. You just got to know about them because a lot of them you're not going to see, you won't recognize, though until somebody points out, do you realize that those two women were never really in the same shot together? Eric 47:06Every well directed movie has a strategy. Sometimes they're unconscious, but you don't want to be unconscious. As the director, you want to be smart. You want to be informed about your own process, and I think smart directors … Here's what I always say to my students: learn a lot, know a lot, then feel a lot. So, what does that mean? It's just my way of distilling a whole bunch of education down into a simple sentence. Understand what has been done and what you can do, and what are the various modes of directing and storytelling. And then when you get into your own script, feel a lot. What do I want? Why isn't it working? Add a lot of questions marks to the end of sentences. Why can't this character be more likeable? Why isn't this appealing? Why haven't I? How could I? And it's a combination of knowing a lot and being rigorously intellectual about the art form that you want to bow down before you want to bow down before what works and what doesn't work. I would say that you want to bow down before the gods of what works and what doesn't work. You know, you don't want to look them in the eye and say, screw you, I'm doing what I want. You bow down and say, I don't even understand why that didn't work. But I'll take that lesson. You want to feel a lot. You want to be open on the set. One of the hardest things to learn is how to be open on the set. You want to be open when you're writing. You want to be open when you're editing. It's a real juggling act of roles that you have to play, of being naive, being smart, being a businessperson, being a general, being a very, very wounded flower. You know, I remember reading, as a high school student, Gloria Swanson's autobiography. And then it's so many years since I read it that I might be wrong. But I remember they said what are you proudest of in your career. And she said without hesitation that I'm still vulnerable. And I didn't even know if I understood it at the time, but I get it now. You want to be smart. You want to be experienced. You want to have a lot of tools and know the tools of other directors and still be naive and vulnerable and hearable and have your emotional interior in tech. Those are hard things to ask of anyone, but if you want to be in this industry, an art form that so many greats have invested their life's work toiling in, then you owe it to yourself to be all of those things. [MUSIC TRANSTION] JohnThanks to Eric Mendelsohn for chatting with me about the lessons he learned from his debut feature, Judy Berlin. If you enjoyed this interview, you can find lots more just like it on the Fast, Cheap Movie Thoughts Blog. Plus, more interviews can be found in my books -- Fast, Cheap and Under Control -- Lessons Learned from the greatest low-budget movies of all time ... and its companion book of interviews with screenwriters, called Fast, Cheap and Written that Way. Both books can be found on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, Google and Apple Books. And while you're there, check out my mystery series of novels about magician Eli Marks and the scrapes he gets into. The entire series, staring with The Ambitious Card, can be found on those same online retailers in paperback, hardcover, ebook and audiobook formats. And if you haven't already, check out the companion to the books: Behind the Page: The Eli Marks podcast … available wherever you get your podcasts. That's it for episode 106 of The Occasional Film Podcast, which was p roduced at Grass Lake Studios. Original music by Andy Morantz. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you … occasionally!

Gospel of Luke, Chapter 15, verses 1-32I read the long version of the Gospel for this weekend's 24th Sunday in Ordinary Time. You may hear the short version at Mass, but it's too good to pass up. Today Jesus, in the form of story telling, reminds us who God is, how God is, and who we are and the value we carry. All of us. No exceptions. It's too good to miss.Original Score written and performed by Bridget Zenk

Transcription:00:03Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best lives, and advice on how you can achieve that too.  Join us with your lively host Ray Lowe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.Ray Loewe00:17Well, this is the lively host, Ray Lowe, and welcome to our brand new studio in Willow Street, Pennsylvania, wherever that might be. And we've got a great guest today. But before we get into our guest, I want to remind everybody that changing the rules is about the fact that all through our lives we're given rules, we're given them by our parents, and then we went to school in the school gave us rules in the church gave us rules, and our jobs gave us rules. And I think it was Steve Jobs, the Apple guy who came back and said, You know, when you're living your life under somebody else's rules, you're not living your life, you're living somebody else's life. And we're lucky enough that every week we interview one of the luckiest people in the world. Now we have a definition for that. The luckiest people in the world are those people who take control of their own lives and live them under their own terms. And we certainly have one of the luckiest people in the world with us today. And I want to start out with a statement and you're gonna see why it's so important as we go through. You know, just because you reach a certain age in life doesn't mean that you have to retire and that you're washed up. And in fact, many people when they reach a certain age are useful. And sometimes they're outstanding, and sometimes they're even become the best there is regardless of their age. So I want to do is introduce today, Candice O'Donnell. You prefer Candice or Candy?Candace O'Donnell  01:45Candice? Candice. I think Candy sounds like a retired stripper at my age.Ray Loewe01:53Oh, well,Candace O'Donnell  01:55I go with Candace,Ray Loewe01:56you know, you'd probably do that well, too. But we'll get into that one. Okay, so So Candice has a really interesting career. And her background is she's raised four children. Okay, not a small feat. While she was doing that she taught English at Elizabethtown University, she has always been active in the theater. And then she got to a point where she had a chance to create some projects that were of interest to her. Okay, and a let's and that started later in life. So So let's, let's tell everybody how young you are.Candace O'Donnell 02:31I'll be at in about a month 27th two months 27 of JuneRay Loewe02:37And you know, many people, when they reach these certain ages, say it's time to shut down? Well, not Candice. Okay, so tell us a little bit about these projects that you created. And tell us about them in general. And then let's get specific about the three specific ones that you chose to put into life.Candace O'Donnell 02:56Well, as you said, I've been doing theater here in Lancaster for maybe 25 years. I've done the Fulton I've done EPAC, my favorite role until I started doing this. This one-woman show was Driving Miss Daisy. That's a wonderful play with a fabulous message. But I guess it was about six, seven years ago. I started doing these one-woman shows I had done small skits for the anniversary of the Fulton 200 and 50th anniversary of people who had appeared at the phone, one of them being Sarah Bernhardt. And so I started I had done a little bit on Carrie Nation, the Temperance leader I had done Abigail Adams, but I started going in earnest into these one-woman shows. I had always wanted to do Mary Lincoln. And I hesitated on Mary Lincoln because it was such a tragic life. She was mentally ill, and she lost every single person that she loved. Every single person that she loved was taken away from her. And I couldn't figure out a way to get into humor in it. And so I kept hesitating, because I thought can I put in audiences through 70 minutes, 75 minutes of hell, her life was hell. And then I remembered one of her funny lines. When she first met Lincoln. She was the belle of the ball and he was a country bumpkin. And he came up to her and he said, Ms. Todd, I want to dance with you in the worst kind of way. And then she said, and then he proceeded to do exactly that. So that's where I got a little humor and I developed that. And then I decided to undertake Sarah Bernhardt an entirely different person. I go for a through-line with each of my characters. The through-line for Mary Lincoln was much madness is divinest sense, which is Emily Dickinson. And was it the track it was a fact that she was mentally ill. Sarah Bernhardt entirely different story, my throughline for her was Edsp ofs. Riojan was not ago not at all. And Sarah Bernhardt lived life on her own terms. She was a survivor. She invented the casting couch. She invented the PR agent. And she invented the cougar. She was amoral, rather than immoral. She was a tremendous survivor. She continued to perform 10 years after her leg was amputated. And incidentally, she did perform at the Fulton Theatre in Lancaster. And finally, I worked my way to Queen Victoria. I had had a strong interest in her for years. And the subtitle there is he was my all in all, Victoria is about her obsession, obsession with her husband, Albert. And particularly funny because they had nine children, she hated babies. You do the math, you put it together? Why did they have nine children? She hated them. So that's how I got into these. And I've really enjoyed them.Ray Loewe06:03Okay, well, I'm sorry, you don't have any passion for any of these at all. But you know, I think what does it take to do this? So let's go back to the first one to Mary Todd Lincoln. First of all, you had to make the decision that this was a character that you were going to bring to life. Okay. And so what did you have to do? I mean, because you wrote the script, right?Candace O'Donnell  06:29You I, it takes me about two to three years to research each person. And, but it's, it's amazing. Ray, the, the through-line comes to you almost instantly, at least it did to me when you see what the glue of this character is what you're going to emphasize. Now, another writer might not emphasize it. But then your research all falls into place. AndRay Loewe06:56okay, so you write the script, you're starting two years ahead of before you're going to deliver this Right, correct. And you got to go where do you find the background data on these people?Candace O'Donnell  07:07There, you're gonna really be surprised at this. It shows you what a low-tech dinosaur I am. I get it out of books. You've heard of books, B. O. O. K. S. I do not get online. Most people today would do their research online.Ray Loewe07:23Yeah. You know, we have our engineer here, who is college age, you know, and I think he's a digital book guy. Oh, is he? okay. Well, maybe not. Maybe he knows what a book is. Okay, You read books in college? Yeah, he did. Okay, so you dig in, and you've got two years of finding a character? Have you ever started on any and then found out halfway through that you couldn't get enough material and you killed the character?Candace O'Donnell 07:48No, I'm a little bit too cautious a person for that? I wouldn't. I'm usually interested in the character and know something about the character. And also I use films and plays as my sources too. I know enough about the character that I have yet to launch into one and thought, oh, no, this is actually a boring character. In fact, the more I researched them, the more fascinating they become.Ray Loewe08:13Okay, so So you start digging into this and you got this two-year process and you're writing your own script? Yeah. Okay. Which probably helps you memorize the script. Okay, and now you're going to deliver this. Okay, so how do you deliver this do you need to get sponsors for this as something that you go to somebody and do a trial.Candace O'Donnell  08:38I'm really glad you asked me that question, because it gives me a chance to pay tribute to Betsy Hurley of the Lancaster Literary Guild, and I haven't been asked that question before. She's the person who got me into the Ware Center with Mary Lincoln. Okay, and once those were very successful, and then I didn't have trouble getting into the Ware center after that. Most of them the more sellouts. My difficulty was COVID. You know, I had a delay of several well, all told this production was delayed four years because of COVID.Ray Loewe09:16Okay, so this is why Candice is one of the luckiest people in the world. I want you to think about this as our listeners here. Okay, so she took on a project several years ago, she knew it was going to take several years to do this. She ran into the COVID barrier most other people use as an excuse to quit, but not here. We were going to deliver this and we're gonna get into a couple of other things later as we go. So all of a sudden, Mary Todd Lincoln appeared on the stage, and you have a script. And do you have any plans to do anything with that script? Now that you've given the character life?Candace O'Donnell  09:55You mean Mary Todd Lincoln? Yeah. I've been asked to do a program here at Willow Valley and what I sometimes do with my programs, I'll do 20 minutes of Mary Lincoln. I'll do 20 minutes of Sarah Bernhardt. I'll do 20 minutes of Queen Victoria. I'm developing that now.Ray Loewe10:14Okay, so you've finished, Mary Todd. She's now alive. Okay. Yes. And now you sat there and you said, Okay, what's next? You didn't stop. Right? So how did you get the drive to go on to the next one? Candace O'Donnell 10:34I, because I'm an incorrigible ham. That's what my husband would tell you. Okay, that's where I get the drive. Okay, I have to admit it.Ray Loewe10:42Well, this is where the passion meets the excellence, though, so go ahead.Candace O'Donnell 10:47Well, that's what motivates me. But also, right, I really get passionate about these women. That's why I don't choose anybody that I don't admire. I see their foibles. We all have our foibles. But I couldn't do it fair, if I were doing man, I couldn't do Trump because I wouldn't, I couldn't admire him enough to do him, okay, I admire all these women. And the more I know about them, the more I see the hell they went through in various ways, and they triumphed over it. So it's not at all hard to motivate myself to do this. It was hard to keep the faith during COVID. With all the delays, like um, and of course, as you and I discussed, I'm getting older. So I'm wondering if I'm gonna go into dementia. Oh, and by the way, I'm losing my balance. I take the balance classes here at Willow Valley. So I won't fall down on stage. Okay. So you're wondering, you are wondering, is the body is the mind going to fail me. And you just sort of leap out in faith,Ray Loewe12:00but you didn't give up? And it worked.  So let's talk about being queen. Okay. So I met you when you were going into this role of Queen of the empire Victoria. Okay. And, to tell you the truth, when I met you, I went to your performance with some trepidation. I mean, I'm sitting there saying, you know, can I sit through an hour plus of this? And I'll tell you, I was wrapped for 75 minutes, I don't think I moved in my seat, and to your little heart and to get me to do that. This is not me. I you know, so you know, you're an athlete. So you did something special here. And, it was a wonderful performance, and you brought this character to life. And I could just see in your eyes and your, the way you moved on stage that you are not you that don't you are Queen, Victoria. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about putting this one together. Because you had to start two years ago, you'd already done a couple of these. So you knew you could do it. Yeah. But now you started asking these questions in one of the things that you told me was about two weeks before you were gonna give this guess what, what happened?Candace O'Donnell 13:12Really, really nasty cough? And, of course, immediately tested for COVID. No, it wasn't COVID chest X-ray, is it pneumonia. And that was frightening I, people, I don't get frightened by performing because as I already confessed, I'm a ham I love to perform. But this cough frightened me. Because I was really terrified that I would not be able to deliver the performance. I was thinking of some other actresses I've worked with, but that was too late for them to memorize a 70-minute script. And I remember my daughter, saying, Mom, well, you may just have to give up on this. And she said I said, Well, I'm, you know me. I'm not giving up at this point. Don't you know my personality? And she said, Well, would you rather die mom? And I said yes. Yes. I would rather die than have to call Keegan my granddaughter was in the show introducing it. She's a temple, a student at Temple called Keegan and say, Keegan, we're not doing it. I would. So that was our big family joke. Mom would rather die than not do it so. As you know, you were there. Well, I was coughing right before I went out, I had to sucrets, I had tea. But now this, you said I'm the luckiest person in the world. And you are and I am and we are but that this was also a blessing. Because I absolutely believe this was God. I mean, I go out there and I'm not coughing. It's unbelievable to me, nor did I fall down on stage. Ray Loewe14:39And the show must go on. The show must go on. So I think this is a message that I want our listeners to get across. Most of us during our lives, put off projects that we want to do because life gets in the way. You know, here you were. You're raising four kids. You're teaching English. You know you're doing all of these things and then somewhere along the line, I think this germ woke up in your head and said, this has been there for a long time I have to do this.Candace O'Donnell  15:09Yeah. It's, it's, I think, if you have a particular passion, you almost have it from the womb.Ray Loewe15:17And it's never too late to do that. And even at your stage of the game, when you are worried about health issues and things like that, guess what? You know everything falls in place, it was no problem. You got it done.Candice O'Donnell  15:32I was flabbergasted by it myself. Oh, I want to say one other thing, because there were so many Willow Valley people in the audience, I had two very sharp audiences, you being one of the members of the audience, who were completely with me, and you can tell that when you step out on stage, you can feel the button. You know, Bruce Springsteen, performing as an exchange of energy between the audience and the performer. You can tell when they're with you, they were laughing ahead of my jokes. That before I got to my punch line, they were laughing. I thought, Oh, boy.Ray Loewe16:10Well, you know, what was the gift? Well, when we had to stand up and sing God, save the queen, and do the royal wave to greet you in there. I mean, you had us at the beginning. But I think this is a really good lesson for people because here you are. And I'm going to predict you're going to do another one. I have no idea what it might be.Candace O'Donnell  16:30My husband will kill me but yeah, we can all see I'm incorrigible.Ray Loewe16:33And the other thing that you're doing here is you're creating scripts, that maybe somebody else will do not as well as you do, but they'll do it at some point in time. And, and the research that you've done is just phenomenal projects. And I think you're to be congratulated for doing that. And I think it just makes you younger and younger and younger. So there all right, it keeps you going forward. Okay, so, unfortunately, we're near the end of our time here. So it's flies. Do you have any, any parting comments, any words of wisdom to anybody who wants to do these things? Or anything for the good of mankind?Candace O'Donnell  17:12Well, I just want to say I am hoping to eventually sell the scripts so that they will live on after me. Again, you may think I sound like a religious fanatic here. If you can get the guts to get out there and do it. Something in my case, I believe it was God, but something will see you through. Don't be afraid to try.Ray Loewe17:39And with that, I don't think there's anything more to say. So Luke is our engineer here at Willow Valley. So Luke, sign us off, please.17:52Thank you for listening to changing the rules. Join us next week for more conversation, our special guest and to hear more from the luckiest guy in the world.

Task 11 is Select Your Path. Today's guest on the show is Melissa Dockum, Executive Administrator for Impact Actual. Melissa is a retired dancer who performed at Radio City Music Hall in New York City. She transitioned into a teacher and then during COVID life, course corrected her path. 08:10As a performer transitioning into teacher transitioning into, you know, well, COVID life, which basically killed the arts for a while, I'm conditioned to select my path multiple times, you know, it's not like I chose my nine to five job and stuck with that for the rest of my life. 13:17What you just said about being brutally honest, that was something that I had to learn to be honest with myself, and realize I'm doing what I should do, or what I've been taught to do. But deep down, I don't really want to do that I don't I don't want to take that path. 15:03 I felt this oppressive weight on my soul, that I was doing the wrong thing. I was on the wrong track. 26:09 To be honest, I journal I think write writing down your pros and cons can kind of help navigate that, but I, I really gravitate towards the what do I want? What do I need to do to get there? How will that make me feel? So that feeling that heart feeling is what I really actually want. And that can then guide my brain towards you know, where I want to go. 34:32I like to laugh at myself, because it's taken me so long to learn the same lessons about honoring I've been teaching honoring your body, mind, heart and soul staying fit across the powers. And we're talking here about the dumb zone, the fifth human power of boundary setting, having a healthy boundary around yourself first, even to the closest person we talked about five powers and five rings. 44:37 It is selecting your path is a process of being responsible, accountable. We talk about accountability all the time.

Text: Luke 5:27-32; Various Theme: Jesus is the light of the world, but then He tells us to be the light of the world. So, what are we supposed to do? In week one we begin to look at how our love can make a difference. Key Verse: Luke 5:31-32 (NIV) Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Message Notes: https://www.bible.com/events/48864166

Dazayah Walker is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music, the label behind today's most trendsetting artists like Lil Baby and Migos, Dazayah. She maintains QC's investment portfolio, particularly within the startup space, which spans well beyond just music and entertainment. Being a 23-year-old venture capitalist is difficult as is. Now tack on being female and black? “It's been a journey”, as Dazayah Walker shares with us in this episode of the Trapital podcast.Dazayah's path to becoming a Venture Capitalist is as unorthodox as you'll find in the venture capital world, but she's stuck to the same principles that got her that opportunity to begin with — seeking out mentors, surrounding herself with a supportive community, and taking the learning process day-by-day. Before overseeing QC's investments, Dazayah worked on the music side for the label. She began as an intern for QC, and worked her way through the ranks at the same time QC was taking the music industry by storm. Not only is Dazayah breaking down doors, but she's also trying to leave them open for future aspiring VC's with similar unconventional backgrounds. As Dazayah continues to learn the ins and outs of venture capital, she plans on creating initiatives to educate others about the world she operates in. To hear Dazayah's future ambitions, plus everything else we covered in the show, reference the video chapters below: [0:00] Dazayah's goals with her role[2:13] Dazayah's Transition Into Venture Capital[5:29] What Is QC's Investment Thesis? [6:35] The Pros And Cons Of Involving QC Artists Into Investments[9:16] What Does Dazayah Look For In A Company Before Investing? [10:49] QC Investing Beyond Just Music and Entertainment [10:45] Dazayah's particular interest in Fintech[12:56] QC's and Dazayah's Involvement With Techstars[14:48] The Challenge Dazayah Faced Breaking Into The VC World[16:04] What Programs Have Helped Dazayah Adjust To The VC World? [17:40] What Was Behind QC's Investment Into Riff? [18:50] QC's Investment Portfolio Explained [20:00] “You Can Do This Too And This Is How”[23:30] Music-Wise, What Is Dazayah Most Excited About QC In Near Future?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Dazayah Walker, @dazayah   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop's biggest players by reading Trapital's free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands-----------Dazayah Walker 00:00Finding success here and having a strong track record and proven portfolio and then be able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too, and this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it.Dan Runcie 00:23Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Dazayah Walker, Head of Investments and the Operations Manager at Quality Control Music. This is an exciting role to have at a time like this. QC has been on a run the past few years and has really shaped what hip hop is sounded like, from artists like Migos, to City Girls, to Lil Baby, and then on the other side of this hip hop investing activity is growing faster than ever, and we're seeing more and more artists getting ICAP tables, getting involved with deals. So it's a really exciting time to have a role like this. I talked with Dazayah about what it's been like from her perspective, and representing and getting roles not just for QC as a firm, but for the artists that they represent, and how she has navigated the record label growing as fast as it has the past few years to venture capital landscape and how she's been able to navigate that and a whole lot more. Had a great conversation with her. Hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Dazayah Walker. All right, we got Dazayah Walker here today, who is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music. Dazayah, welcome to the pod. Dazayah Walker 01:42Hello, I'm so happy to be here. Super excited. Let's do this. Dan Runcie 01:46Yeah, so one of the things that stuck out to me about you and your career, you had started as an intern at QC, and you've risen up the ranks there as the label as not just a record label, but as an entertainment company. And now with a corporate venture arm or brollies just continue to grow and expand. Dazayah Walker 02:05Yes. Dan Runcie 02:06Walk me through the steps. What was it like from when you started to where it is now, just with how fast things have been growing there? Dazayah Walker 02:13Yeah, it's been a great journey and experience for me, with this being my first job. There's been a lot of learning curves with that in itself. But it was definitely a privilege and a great opportunity to be able to see the growth of QC, because we've expanded in so many different ways since I started as an intern, and being able to be a part of that, witness that, learn from that I couldn't be in a better position. Dan Runcie 02:36And is there anything specific with the role that you have now that had drawn you to it or something specifically because I know you had started a bit more focused on operations? And then now we're obviously seeing much more on the investment side. But was there something about that opportunity that pulled you in? Dazayah Walker 02:52Yes, so getting to this side was definitely a path of, I would say divine ordering because me entering the opportunity at QC. Starting as an intern, I thought I just wanted to do music, work my way up to being a music industry executive. But as I became more in the groove, and learning more of the things that I like, things that I don't like, I really had to find my place. And when I discovered what venture capital was, because when I was at Spelman, I was an economics major. So I kind of have like, I've always been surrounded by that when I was in school, just the finance, track and everything like that. But me venturing into music was me following my passion or what I thought was my passion at that time. So when I discovered what venture capital was, it was actually kind of crazy to me that I hadn't learned about it when I was in school, considering the impact that Morehouse, our brother institution has, as far as their representation of black men in venture capital. It was just crazy to me that I was at an institution right across the street and had no idea that this industry even existed. So when I stumbled across VC and began learning about it, I just saw the opportunity for artists, athletes and entertainers to be involved and was curious as to why more people that look like us aren't represented in those spaces. So that's when you know, my research and dedication to being in this position really started. And then from there, you know, bringing that idea and really helped become what we're building today with quality Ventures has been amazing. Dan Runcie 04:26So talk to me about that piece about bringing this idea together. So was it you seeing the opportunity and seeing how much of a disconnect there was and then going into the team at QC to be like, hey, there's something big here and we have talent here that could be just as influential. Dazayah Walker 04:42Yes. So it was a moment where I had to really think about what legacy do I want to have, what value do I want to add, and being in this position, you know, I built relationships with, you know, our entire team. So I was somebody that, you know, they trusted and when I, you know, have something to say they were listening, and you know, they embraced any idea or anything that I had. So by, you know, telling them and showing them, you know, the opportunity that exists for us in this space, it was well-received. And now here we are deploying capital, making investments. And my goal is really for us to have that same little level of influence and impact that we have in music in the venture capital space, as well. So having that same strong presence and footprint in that industry, too.Dan Runcie 05:29So what does that thesis look like? What does that investment goal look like for QC specifically, because I'm sure it's more than just the financial aspect? There's the pitch and how it can help intersect and how the music itself and everything you're doing on the media and entertainment side can help with the venture opportunity too?Dazayah Walker 05:48Absolutely, so our biggest thing is adding value, adding strategic value. So for us being in a unique position of being that entity that defines culture and creates culture, I feel like we're uniquely positioned to leverage our artists and our athletes to really help grow these companies that we see as potential winners.Dan Runcie 06:11And are there ever any specific moments where folks are reaching out? And there's, of course, the interest in having QC on the cap table, but then people reaching out about specific artists, whether it's like, oh, well, we want to have City Girls on here, specifically, or we want to be able to have a Lil Baby on here? How has it been with that piece of advice, I'm sure that could be an interesting discussion, especially from your landscape with all of that. Dazayah Walker 06:35So that happens a lot as well. And it all boils down to seeing if the artist even aligns with what you're building. Because when you're working with early stage, or pre-seed stage companies, that may be the very first version of whatever they're building, there's so many more iterations yet to happen. And as the entity continues to grow, and transform, the artists that they thought may be ideal for what they're building as a representation may not be as they continue to, you know, redefine what it is that they're building. So yes, you know, we get opportunities all the time for our artists, which was another reason why, like the opportunity to bridge the gap and intersect music and technology was so evident and clear to me, you know, to pursue and to do, because those opportunities and those deals are always flowing. But really being in a position being someone that knows how to evaluate those opportunities, and educate, you know, the artist, or the athlete or whoever may be to let them know, like, this is why this is a good, you know, opportunity or something to look at and this is why it isn't.Dan Runcie 07:41I also imagine that there's likely people that may be reaching out because they may want just the exposure that may come right, they may be like, “Oh, well, if y'all invest can Lil Baby, give us a shout out for the product on some song. And I could see there being you know, some pushback on that, because obviously, you all would see the opportunity as being greater than that.” But how was that piece of it been? Because I know, I've heard similar from folks in the entertainment space when they're looking to have not just celebrities, but artists specifically on the cap table.Dazayah Walker 08:13Well, personally, I don't think a founder having that mindset is necessarily wrong because in the VC ecosystem now, capital isn't an issue. So getting the money having people to, you know, write a check for you isn't the hard part. It's actually once you get that money, how can you use that, you know, relationship that you now have to help build your company or grow whatever it is that you're building. So I feel like a founder having that perspective isn't necessarily a bad thing, because you want to have partners that can help you grow your company and add value in different ways. So if there is an opportunity for an artist, if it's something that they really love, you know, to be an ambassador for it, and to push it.Dan Runcie 08:58So when you're evaluating startups, and when you're evaluating artists, or not artists, founders, specifically, what are you looking for, like, what is your criteria set? And what are those things whether it's tangible or intangible that you're looking for that clears that over the hurdle to be like, Yes, this is what we want to invest in?Dazayah Walker 09:16So I would break it down into three things. The first thing I would say, what is the problem that you're trying to solve? Is this a problem that is unique to you and from like, or where you're from? Or is this a problem that is affecting a wide market of people? So first, understanding the problem, and if the solution that they're attempting to build is a solution for the greater good? The second thing is really understanding their team, like, who do you have helping you build this? What people do need a position to help you build it? And like how much traction Have you gotten so far. And the first, and I think the most important thing is the founder, when you're working with companies that are likely pre-revenue, maybe they have a very, very early version of their product, you're placing a bet on the founder. So knowing the type of person to look for, or the type of characteristics to look for in a founder, I think are very important. Somebody that is determined, somebody that is all in like willing to make the investment themselves because how do you expect me or someone to make an investment when you haven't even, you know, fully invested yourself in this in this idea? So I will say those are the top three things that I look at when I meet with founders and new companies.Dan Runcie 10:33That makes sense. And then in terms of the industries themselves, is there any type of sector that you're particularly looking for, or any other type of industry that you feel is most aligned with what QC or Quality Ventures is after?Dazayah Walker 10:49Yeah, so as a company, Quality Ventures isn't looking in specific industries and verticals. I know a lot of people think since you know, we have Quality Control Music, we're looking strictly at music-based companies and startups. And that's not necessarily true. Like I said, our whole thesis is really about us being in a position to add value. But for me, specifically, I really like looking at fintech companies, I think that Fintech is the next market to really boom so paying attention to the trends, paying attention to what people are saying, paying attention to what problems are they need to be solved. So for me personally, the industry of interest to me is fintech.Dan Runcie 11:28And what is it about fintech specifically that sticks out to you or interest you?Dazayah Walker 11:32I like it because I think it's time for a change as far as how money is viewed, how money is moved. Like I know, you probably have seen how crypto, everybody's talking about crypto, and preparation for the metaverse, like, all of those things are happening strategically. And by being aware of what's happening in fintech, you know how the money is moving what the future of money and finances look like. So that you can kind of put yourself in position to not only be educated about it but know how to make your next move when it comes to what the future looks like.Dan Runcie 12:05Right? That makes sense. And I think especially when you look more broadly at the definition of FinTech, and you look at companies like Coinbase, and you look at some of the partnerships that they've had with organizations like the NBA, or even the United Masters, there's clearly an alignment where even if it isn't in the quote-unquote, entertainment landscape, this touches so much. So that's why I think you see so many artists and companies in this space that want to tap into all these areas, even if they're not necessarily what you may think is in that industry. Dazayah Walker 12:38Exactly. Dan Runcie 12:39And with that, I mean, for you, I know that another partnership that QC has, at least on the investment side, from what I've seen is in Techstars Music, and I saw that you're a mentor there and that QC more broadly as a partner. So how has that experience been?Dazayah Walker 12:56It's been amazing. Just the Techstars music team in general have been a great like resource for us. So when the program, when we joined the program last year, we kind of were thrown in when things were already in motion, like they were already preparing for demo day, the companies in the cohort were already selected. But now I was able to be a part of the process of you know, picking the companies for the new cohort, being a part of like all the member meetings and the mentor meetings. So with me still being in a very early part of my career, I'm always looking for opportunities to learn and experience new things. And Techstars has been an amazing teacher for me. Just seeing things from that perspective, working with an accelerator, like working with founders and seeing them in that perspective has definitely helped me I feel like become a better venture capitalist, just seeing things from different angles and different perspectives. Because honestly, once I made the decision to transition into venture capital, I was a little discouraged because I am entering it through a very unconventional background. So any opportunity that I have to learn and observe and ask questions, it's been amazing, because it's been it's been a rough journey for me to be able to confidently say, this is what I'm doing. I know that I'm uniquely qualified to do that thing, and, you know, moving like that. So it's been a journey, Dan, I tell you,Dan Runcie 14:22I could imagine I mean, there are not many people that look like you that are doing this type of work. And when you compound that with what people already may assume is standard for what they expect for people working at, the type of company you work at that just compounds it further. I mean, what are some of the things that you had done early on to try to, you know, either break through that or try to navigate that the best, and I could only imagine how tough that could be at times.Dazayah Walker 14:50Yeah, I would definitely say reaching out to people asking questions, really being a sponge, absorbing as much information and knowledge as I can. Because making this pivot into an entire new industry is scary, because like, I built my network in my name and music. And now, I feel like making a career shift almost as still such an early point in my career was very, very scary. But some of those same like tactics and things that I did to be successful or reach the level of success that I had in music, I applied those same principles to me, you know, trying to achieve a level of success in venture capital. So really finding mentors and finding a community to learn from to be supported by and to be supportive of, and just taking things day by day. And knowing that every day is an opportunity to learn something new, and, you know, not taking opportunity for granted because I know I'm in a very unique and special position. And I'm grateful for the position that I'm in. So really showing people why I, you know, I'm deserving of the role that I've been placed in.Dan Runcie 16:04Definitely. And I also think, too, whether it's programs like HBCU, VC, and obviously, you representing that being an alum from HBCU them recognizing that this is a pipeline that not only is a challenge, but how can they help bridge that gap? And, you know, are there any specific organizations, whether it's like that or others that have been helpful for you as you've gone along this path?Dazayah Walker 16:26Yeah, so definitely HBCU BC, considering I was a fellow, that was an amazing program with amazing teachers, and I've really been able to, like tap into that community, which has been amazing. Another community that I'm really grateful for is Black VC and the Black Venture Capital Consortium, both of those organizations have been super supportive and welcoming of me. And it's things like that, that are very important for not even just me being a young black woman, but you know, being a person of color trying to enter another space that is male-dominated, white-male-dominated. So just having that comfort of knowing that there are people that support you and want to uplift you and see you do amazing things.Dan Runcie 17:11Yeah, definitely. I could see that for sure. I could see that. Well. Let's circle back quick. I do want to talk about some of the public investments that you've made. I know that Riff was one of them, that you all were in, was that one of them? Riff, yes. Okay. So what was the process like for that investment? What was it that attracted you about that company?Dazayah Walker 17:31Well, Riff isn't one that I necessarily, like found from the beginning and worked all the way to the point where we cut the check. But Riff has been an amazing company in our portfolio, I'm super excited for what they're building, just seeing them being disruptive and combining elements that we as consumers love, I'm really excited for the journey of Riff and being able to be a great partner to them, and just seeing them grow. And you know, being along that journey in that ride with them, but they're definitely building something amazing. And I'm excited for, you know, the masses to really, you know, tap into it, learn about it, and really get engaged with it.Dan Runcie 18:10Yeah, I can see that. Are there any that are public that you've worked on that you can talk more about?Dazayah Walker 18:17Yeah, so one of my favorite companies in our portfolio, which is actually one of the companies from the previous class of Techstars. It's called Faith. And this is one that I really, really loved. Because not only did our relate to like the platform, just to give you a little bit of background Faith is an app for fans. It allows fans to come together and really live within their fandom. And with me being a past fangirl, I immediately fell in love with what she was building. And the founder, she's a black woman, she's a solopreneur, which is a challenge in itself. So just seeing what she's built so far, the amount of traction that she's received, and just how far she has come has been super inspirational for me, you know, being involved, even in like the due diligence and saying, I think this is a great company, I think this is one that we really should pay attention to, to the point of us actually deploying capital to that company. That was super cool, and really amazing. And that's another company in our portfolio that I'm super excited about. And I feel like not only will my generation, like, enjoy the app, but the generation underneath me will as well, so…Dan Runcie 19:23Nice. That makes sense. Yeah. And I feel with apps like that in platforms. I mean, not only do you have the direct connection, but I'm sure you being able to have the connection to it. I mean, these are the type of things obviously it's still early stage, you know, but gets marked up you continue to have that influence over it and you never know where that could take you. I feel like that's kind of the exciting thing, especially for the people I talk to you that are that start their careers in VC, as opposed to the other way around the, you know, the folks that may have done something on the product side and then go into vc.Dazayah Walker 19:56Yeah, but my goal overall, really is to, you know, find my groove in this and really, you know, find success for myself and I define success within this space is being able to invest in companies, have exits, and you know, have a strong portfolio, so that I can get to the point where I'm able to educate and inform, because I feel like, part of the reason why a lot of artists, athletes, and entertainers, which is, you know, the people that I'm used to working with and being around, which is why I really strongly urge them to get into this space, and why I feel like I'm in the position, and the person to really do that work, is because they don't know, like, there's that kind of barrier. Like they may see things on social media of other artists that have invested in Gods, you know, there's money back, but really having someone there to educate them and be that bridge and that conduit from, you know, them being in the position and the level of influence, and you know, the reach that they have, and showing them and being that person to bring deals to them to help them leverage that so that not only are they able to, you know, be represented in this space, but build generational wealth for them and their families. Like that's the bigger picture. And that's the goal for me. And that's the work that I really want to do and look forward to doing. So finding success here and having a strong, like track record and proven portfolio, and then being able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too. And this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it.Dan Runcie 21:32Yeah, that's powerful. Because I feel like especially for you or you're in your position now. There's a lot of people that I'm sure look at you being like, oh, Dazayah, how can we get in that? Like, how do you were able to, you know, connect those dots. And then you obviously, you know, I'm sure you feel like you're deep into yourself, you're learning as you're continuing to grow. But you know that in the near future, you will be able to have enough. And that can look like a number of things, whether that's a course or some other type of platform to just share and disseminate this information. Because not only is it important for people to hear it, it's important for people to hear it from people who you know, look like you they if you want to inspire, you know, especially if there's black women across the country across the world, I want to hear it, the more folks that could share their experience, the better that is.Dazayah Walker 22:16Absolutely, I agree 100%. Like, the more you know, the better position that you can put yourself in. And I just think it's a lack of knowledge, people just not knowing, like, what these things mean, how to get in on deals, how much to invest, like, there's so many layers to it. And I feel like if people were a bit more comfortable, they'd be more open and investing their money in other ways than the traditional stocks and bonds or, you know, how people see fit to save their money or invest their money, I should say. Dan Runcie 22:47Yeah, especially now I feel like we're seeing things like whether it's the accredited investor rule or other things just continuing to be challenged, we're gonna see more and more people investing the definition of an investor and who can get involved with things. As those barriers continue to lower, the options increase. And when that happens, it just provides more space for education. So yeah, you're definitely on the right track with all that stuff has ever said. 100%Dazayah Walker 23:13Thank you. That really means a lot. Thank you.Dan Runcie 23:16Yeah, well, um, I know that, you know, we've covered a lot in this. But before we let you go, I do want to get a quick take from you on what are you most excited for? What's coming through the QC portfolio for the rest of 2022? And I guess portfolio, that'd be more on the artists side. Specifically, what are you excited for on that front. Dazayah Walker 23:36I'm just excited for the continued growth of Quality Control as an empire. It hasn't even been 10 years that QC has been in existence. And for us to have made so much leeway, create so much history have so much impact within that 10-year window. I'm excited to see what the next five years look like for us. But even just in the next year, in the next 12 months, I'm excited to see the continued growth and effort of our team, like our team has grown dramatically. So if we were able to do and accomplish so much with such a small team, I'm excited to see what the next 12 months look like for our expansion and our growth and just everything to come and everything that we're building, publicly and silently. I'm just grateful for the position that I'm in and be able to be a part of that and even say those things. So the next year it's going to look like a lot of wins continued success and growth and expansion for all of us.Dan Runcie 24:38That's exciting. I feel like the past decade for QC has been incredible. I think it's so tough for indie labels to be able to have that type of run in the fact that they have says a lot. So I'm excited. I mean, as a fan of all of this, I'm excited to see what happened. But yeah, before we let you go, is there anything else you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about?Dazayah Walker 25:00I should say this is great, Dan, I absolutely love what you're doing what you're building, you're spreading a message that needs to be heard by so many. And you're not only inspiring me, but you're inspiring people that you may not even know that you're touching. So keep doing the work that you're doing. This was awesome. Thank you so much.Dan Runcie 25:19Thank you. I appreciate that. Appreciate that. We'll do. Thanks, Dazayah.Dazayah Walker 25:23All right. Thank you, Dan.Dan Runcie 25:28 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Who is Alastair?Alister Esam was a frustrated CEO and Founder who felt so passionately about his business he was working 80 hours a week trying to make everything perfect. At the same time he drove his employees up the wall. Disempowering them to the point that they could no longer contribute to the business, demotivating them and heaping more stress on himself. He found salvation in a surprising place. People associate process with control, monotony, routine, the status quo and with an overall death of creativity. It's a Dirty Word they try to avoid. Alister discovered that if implemented correctly it provided empowerment, autonomy and creativity for employees and delivered business freedom for himself with total reassurance his business was running itself. It also enabled him to massively accelerate improvement in his business by harnessing his team's collective brainpower. In his book 'The Dirty Word', Alister looks at why process is so important, why people get it so wrong and make it so horrible and how to put it in place in a new way which can change the whole culture of a business. Key Takeaways1. Process is an effective way to grow your business and staff2. Critical to the success of adding process is to ensure there isto get people to want to improve and give them the empowerment to improve3. Process is useless if it does not 'live' with the business as it changesValuable Free Resource or ActionSee https://processbliss.comA video version of this podcast is available on YouTube : ————————————————————————————————————————————-TranscriptNote, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)SUMMARY KEYWORDSbusiness, people, process, question, staff, empower, thinking, book, run, realise, improvement, documentation, shelf, work, empowerment, point, employees, bit, mistake, droveSPEAKERSStuart Webb, Alister EsamStuart Webb  00:21Hi, and welcome back to it's not rocket science five questions over coffee. I'm here today with Alastair Easson, who is the author of the dirty word, that work that fills people with dread. That's the key to business freedom. So Alastair, really looking forward to the conversation, I know you've got a great offering, I'm really looking forward to to hearing some more about what you've been doing.Alister Esam  00:43Thank you. Thanks.Stuart Webb  00:44Yeah, no problem. So let's start with the with the the obvious first question that I was asked, What's the what's the problem that you're trying to help your clients overcome.Alister Esam  00:55So I always kind of go high level on this. But the problem is I see it. If I describe a typical client, they're typically a CEO, or founder, or they can be a head of operations, but they are massively passionate about their business. And they are typically frustrated because they can't get their business to do what they want it to do. And that's limiting their ability to scale. And they probably they probably feel like they're the only ones with good ideas in the business. And the trouble is, they're suffocating their staff with their passion. And if I can tell you my story, because I was this person, and I basically was, was in the business working 80 hours a week. And I just wanted everything to be perfect. So I was policing quality. I was everywhere I was on top of everything. And when your business is really young, that's okay. But at some point, you've got to let go and trust your staff. And, and I kind of eventually found that the way to do that. It was a surprising place. For me it was it was within process. So I initially put process in to try and control my business. But then actually found that if I just passed over the process to my staff, and let them run it, I suddenly they weren't trying to do a bad job, they were trying to do a great job. But once they got process, they got the tool we needed to help them do it. And they took ownership of it and ran with it. And I suddenly had this massive amount of trust in them. And they love the empowerment and the autonomy that they got. And so it's amazing how this little thing just provided the key. So that mean that that's the background to to why I developed process bliss, which is the tool that helps you do this. And why develop the dirty word, right, the word dirty word, which is the book that kind of explains a bit more about this concept.Stuart Webb  02:31That's a really interesting story asked, and I guess it leads me to the second question, which is the common mistakes that you found people were trying to solve, without any of that process in place in order to sort of, you know, help to bridge out promote, provide that framework?Alister Esam  02:46Yeah, so what happens is, people get to a point where, you know, and it could be anything between five and 25 employees where you are, you're wrestling with your business, yeah, and you're trying to make everything happen. And they know they've got to do something because they want to get bigger, and they can't do any more hours. And that's where I was. And for me, it was about 10 employee mark. And what they first of all do is they try to document their processes. I've seen this done before. And it's just such a pointless exercise, because it's not totally pointless. But people come in and they write down what the processes are, they put them in a file on a shelf, or in a file share, no one ever looks at them. And there's no point looking at them because they're immediately out of date, because everything evolves. And people change the way people are changing the way they work constantly. So it just doesn't work. So the common mistake they make is they do that. And then it doesn't work. And I knew that the solution there had to be to embed the process somehow in the business. But then the trouble then that is the second mistake they make if I can have two answers to the question is they they just make processes and extenuation of their control. So they put process in for them to control the business. And they see it as their tool to make people do what they want them to do. And that's so disempowering. So demotivating, you're not getting the best out your staff. And you're still you're still the one that's out there, writing all these things and managing it. And the solution really is to see processes, something that's theirs, not yours, that's there to help them do a good job. And then to give it to them, and let them run with it, and allow them to kind of evolve with it and do what they want. Because they're not trying to do a bad job. People are smarter than process. And if you combine the two, it gets really powerful. So yeah, they're the common mistakes. But yes, that's why we're here to help.Stuart Webb  04:32And I think I think you're absolutely right. I've seen it so many times myself, you know, these documentation. I think documentation is great, particularly if you're trying to sort of, you know, get the ideas and if you want to sort of, you know, package your business in such a way that you can explain it to somebody else. Documentation is really useful. But you're right, too often documentation sits on a shelf, nobody looks at it, nobody refers to it. It's a living document, but nobody updates it when something changes. It's all still buried in somebody's head. And then when that person goes off sick it all falls apart what you have to do Is have to turn that documentation into something which actually is the breathing embodiment and the sort of the spirit of the business don't you have to make it the thing which people live and, and work through. And those processes and systems then become the thing which actually drive business value.Alister Esam  05:15I couldn't agree more, you've got to exactly it's so it the fall in the shelf is so disconnected from the business, but what but it's so difficult to work out how to make it the living breathing part of the business. And there's one way of doing that, which is training. And that that kind of works to an extent, there's only so much you can keep in people's heads, and they still forget things. And they forget the bits that are really important, not to them, but to other people like the communication. And so, yeah, that's exactly what process busters is effectively, it's kind of like check with software that allows you to embody it in the business. So people live and breathe it to do list. And actually, it's an interesting point, because your average person in the business doesn't really see process, they just see a list of tasks. They just see a list of stuff to do. And they don't necessarily think oh, they probably know at the back of their mind, but they don't think it's part of a process. So it's about having this process, but then presenting it to people who are doing the work in a way that it's just, it's just like, This is what I need to be doing next. This is this is these are the jobs I've got to get done. So. Yeah. And that that's, that's where I'm where we fit in. Yes,Stuart Webb  06:18brilliant. So I guess that brings me to the third point of this, which is obviously there are people who will be watching this in the in the recording and thinking well, that's that's kind of rings a bell with me, what's my first step towards that? And I know you've got a sort of really valuable free offer that we can talk about.Alister Esam  06:34Yeah, so. So we like to introduce people to this concept, kind of, and have a bit of a background to the thinking behind it, which is you know, what I'm here to talk about today. Because it's it's not just about putting a software product is about changing your paradigm, it's about letting go. It's about those sorts of aspects. And so what we've devised is a bit of a kind of a journey around that. So yes, you can just contact process person, and we'll give you a look at the software, but where we'd like to start is something called the dirty word assessment. So my book, The dirty word, is all about the theory behind this. And the dirty word assessment really takes you through I think the 30 questions, just score them really easily. And you'll get a report. And the report will tell you exactly where you fit on the scale. You know, how you rate with regards to the four key components we see for from a business's implemented process correctly? And they are, you know, consistency Have you got? Have you got these processes? Have you got things been done consistently in your business? Improvement? Have you got a mechanism that's making sure that things evolve and improve over time, and you're not just accepting the status quo, but you're, you're capturing people's feedback from throughout the business? Empowerment? So have you created a culture where it's not you driving all this from above, but actually, the people who own the processes are the people that are involved in them. And trust and trust is, you know, the bit the deliverable for you? You know, have you got a business where you just, and this is what I call it process bliss when we develop the product. Because for me, once I got that trust, and I could see everything happening in my business, and people were doing a far better job than I could ever do. It just that was where the bliss came from. And that's kind of why we named it that way, even though Yeah, learning process was bliss. But yeah,Stuart Webb  08:16it's brilliant. I love the fact that you sort of made the middle to those that the improvement and the empowerment, because I think those are absolutely critical to making this a company wide process of improvement, isn't it, there's no point in it just sitting in the top table or up in the CEOs head. unless everybody lives improvement unless everybody's empowered to make that improvement, it just once again becomes a dusty thing that sits on a shelf that nobody's taking notice.Alister Esam  08:40When I when I sold my business, I had about 75 employees. And the best part about it was all those 75 employees were providing input. I had all their brains working on the business. Yeah, right. You know, it 10 People, it was just me doing it. And it's just that was rubbish, there was no way. There's not the diversity of thinking there's not the kind of I don't have the sight of everything. So much more powerful, and it really accelerates.Stuart Webb  09:02You've mentioned one book, but I'm gonna ask the question, I guess I guess another book might come in here after but what's the the concept or the programme or the book that's most impactful in your experience?Alister Esam  09:14Do you know what I think it's more of a concept. And it goes back to something my father said. I didn't appreciate how important this was until recently, but he said, I realised that it played a part in this journey. But my father said to me when I was young, and if you only said it a few times, he said it was one of them when I'd made done something wrong and it made an error. I said if you make if you make a mistake once you human, he said he made the same mistake twice. You're a fool. And I always stuck with me and what what that drove was when I got when I was running my business now sort of doing things what drove me up the wall and I didn't realise it was his in his influence at the time, was you know, we'd make a mistake. I could screw up for clients. I mean, we'd go wrong. But we do it again and again and again. And I'd be like, how's this keep happening? Why are we not? You know, what are we not learning here. And that's where you get drawn in to try to kind of make everything perfect. And, you know, I wanted a mechanism where I could put something in the business said, you know, okay, that's fine. Every time we get something wrong, we look at it, we learn from it, and we make sure that thing never happens again, and we'll move on to the next thing we get wrong. And the next thing and eventually we'll, we're just striving for perfection. So I mean, that's that was probably the, in relation to this topic and where it came from, I thought, why I thought, Well, where does it go back to? I thought, well, that's actually probably the key or where all this comes from, you know, so yeah.Stuart Webb  10:43Love it. Love it. I'll still we're kind of coming to the end of the conversation. And I always leave this one till last, because it's my ability now to relax and allow you to do my work for me. So there must be a question you're thinking, I wish you'd asked me. It's never come out. So what's the question you would like me to ask me? Ask you have you? And then once you've done that done the asking, Would you mind doing the answering as well, so So I don't do any work at all.Alister Esam  11:10I love I love the empowerment very process faster.Stuart Webb  11:14Let's go with Empower dialysis.Alister Esam  11:19Guys. Wonderful, very precious. But I think I think what in all of this, the thing that we we run up against, that people really struggle with is how do I get my staff to see something like processes are positive? You know, because because as soon as you say the word basic, I put it in my book, in the first chapter of my book, I talk about a story how people started associating me with process. And even though it's not what I am, they suddenly invented this persona for me, of Mr. Boring, Mr. Routine, Mr. organism, actually, I'm chaos. And, and the reason I needed this process thing was because I'm chaos, you know, so. And, and so I think it's now the staff scene, you say, Oh, we're going to do something around process stuff, just go, Ah, you're going to control me even more, you're just gonna make this business more miserable, more palatable. So how do you get them set as a positive? And I think, for me, from day one, it's all about getting them to do it and handing it over to them. So the answer to that is, if you want to put processes in your business, don't just don't try to control your staff empower them to Yeah, it's a bit to be their tool for them to control for them to improve the business and for them to have their say, which is what it effectively is. So I see it all the time. I say in my it's kind of about letting go. But I mean, you see it all the time. So the evening meeting this morning, my weekly meeting, something happened with one of my team, and they suggested an idea, and I just my initial reaction was, well, I look, you know, I wanted to control it from above, I wanted to say no, we're not gonna do that, we're gonna do that. Let's just do a, you just, if you say that you're just killing, you're just killing their their enthusiasm and value, it's the worst thing you can do. And you will, it will reverberate for months. So remember that comment. And be, maybe they've got a good idea. You know, maybe you don't know it all. And so actually passing over, if you're going to implant process, really pass it over to them that remember that. And actually, you'll think they're doing it wrong, and they're doing it badly. And they're not looking at the important things, but they won't be they'll probably be looking at the important things you don't realise they're more important than the things you think are important. So it's, it's kind of, yeah, it's all about letting go and delegating, this got to do so.Stuart Webb  13:32I, I've used this analogy on a couple of occasions, obviously. So you don't mind me sort of, you know, coming in and supporting what you've just said. But, you know, I've said to people in the past, you have people working for you who run very successful businesses outside of this, but they call them skank groups, or they call them church groups, or they call them families, they manage negotiation, they manage budgets, they work out scheduling and planning, they resolve issues. And yet you expect them to put all of that down as they come in through the door to come to work and not bring any of those skills. If you can turn around and go Well, look, you can really effectively run something outside of this place. Go do it for me, for goodness sake, because, you know, you've got all the skills I really can't. I couldn't I couldn't scout group if I tried. So why don't you do what you do at home here? And if you can get that spirit, if you can empower them to think, Okay, I've done it before, why not? You've got a workforce, which is 2050 times more effective than you've ever had before. So just let them go.Alister Esam  14:30Yeah, you remind me of actually why I gave up employment. Going down years ago, I remember thinking, I'm doing this great job for this employer. And you know, I'm adding all the value to them. You know, they're getting all the value of the hard work that I'm doing. I you know, I should be getting that I'm going to be getting that value. I wouldn't be getting all working for myself and getting the rewards myself not just getting a salary. Well, they get they kind of get massive profits. And I remember thinking, you know, so if I turn that around, and I think about Got it. Now just think, you know, if you run a business, you actually have got all these people who are creating value for you. Yes, you can let them do it and find a way to let them do it and not not get in their way. And so many CEOs and founders do that. So yeah, it's, it's wonderful. Yeah. Brilliant stuff.Stuart Webb  15:15Allison love the discussion. Thank you so much for taking the time to come and tell us about process place. And, and that book and I really do encourage people go on to Aster, esa.com, dirty hyphen, word, hyphen assessment, that's dirty, hyphen, word, hyphen assessment, and get that, get that assessment, find out where you are on this journey. And yeah, go towards the the trust and empowerment and input and improvement that you need in order to see your business grow. Alison, thank you so much. I would just encourage you, if you want to be on the mailing list, we send out a mail an email every Monday telling you who's coming up on these sessions. So that we weren't coming out on Monday with who's going to be here next week. Go to HTTPS forward slash forward slash I don't know why give all of those because I think they're now standard but it's a TC a dot FYI. Forward slash subscribe. That's TC a dot FYI. Folks, I subscribed get on the mailing list and find out who's coming up join in live so that you can ask questions of the of the presenters that we have here on it's not rocket science questions, coughing, honestly, thank you so much for being here. Really looking forward to sort of following people getting in touch with you and finding out how to go about making their business more effective by putting in some of that process that you've been talking to us about? Thanks to No problem. Thank you very much._________________________________________________________________________________________________Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletterFind out more about being a guest at : link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/beaguestSubscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcastHelp us get this podcast in front of as many people as possible. Leave a nice five-star review at  apple podcasts : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/apple-podcasts and on YouTube : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Itsnotrocketscienceatyt!Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:1. Download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/1pageIt's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way2. Join The Complete Approach Facebook Group :  https://TCA.fyi/fb Connect with like-minded individuals who are all about growth and increasing revenue. It's a Facebook community where we make regular posts aimed at inspiring conversations in a supportive environment. It's completely free and purposely aimed at expanding and building networks.3. Join our Success to Soar Program and get TIME and FREEDOM. : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Success-to-SoarIf you're doing 10-50k a month right now: I'm working with a few business owners like you to change that, without working nights and weekends. If you'd like to get back that Time and still Scale, check the link above.4. Work with me privatelyIf you'd like to work directly with me and my team to take you from 5 figure to 6 and multi 6 figure months, whilst reducing reliance on you. Click on https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/DiscoveryCall  tell me about your business and what you'd like to work on together, and I'll get you all the details. Get full access to It's Not Rocket Science! at thecompleteapproach.substack.com/subscribe

Acts 26:1–32I. Reviewing Paul's Life – 1-23II. Appreciating Paul's Witness – 24-32

Who is Pavel?Pavel Verbnyak is a professional speaker on personal development, goal-setting, the law of attraction and leadership. He is a success expert, life coach, Vice President of JCI Russia, Brian Tracy Academy's expert and partner, the founder of “Successful Thinking”, the author of several books, seminars on unlocking human potential and personal efficiency. Pavel specializes in training and development of individuals and organizations, helping to set and achieve personal and professional goals faster and easier, to eliminate limiting beliefs and fears, increase sales etc. Pavel Verbnyak is an award-winning speaker and an internationally recognized leader in personal development and peak performance strategies. For over 15 years, he has been teaching entrepreneurs, educators, corporate leaders, and people from all walks of life how to create the life they desire.Key Takeaways1. Too many entrapreneurs, leaders, managers, doesn't see the difference between goals, wishes and dreams. And don't set goals, which should be specific, clear and written down.2. We are all unique, we can all learn from each other, our clients, our colleagues and those we meet. Nobody was born a great productive leader or manager or public speaker or lawyer. Everything starts from zero. And you decide exactly who you are, what you want to achieve in your life.3. Don't be afraid to ask for help. Don't be afraid to go forward. And don't be afraid to fail. There's no fail there are just lessons.Valuable Free Resource or ActionFacebook.com/verbnyakA video version of this podcast is available on YouTube : _________________________________________________________________________________________________Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletterFind out more about being a guest at : link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/beaguestSubscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/subscribe-podcastHelp us get this podcast in front of as many people as possible. Leave a nice five-star review at  apple podcasts : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/apple-podcasts and on YouTube : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Itsnotrocketscienceatyt!Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:1. Download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/1pageIt's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way2. Join The Complete Approach Facebook Group :  https://TCA.fyi/fb Connect with like-minded individuals who are all about growth and increasing revenue. It's a Facebook community where we make regular posts aimed at inspiring conversations in a supportive environment. It's completely free and purposely aimed at expanding and building networks.3. Join our Success to Soar Program and get TIME and FREEDOM. : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Success-to-SoarIf you're doing 10-50k a month right now: I'm working with a few business owners like you to change that, without working nights and weekends. If you'd like to get back that Time and still Scale, check the link above.4. Work with me privatelyIf you'd like to work directly with me and my team to take you from 5 figure to 6 and multi 6 figure months, whilst reducing reliance on you. Click on https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/DiscoveryCall  tell me about your business and what you'd like to work on together, and I'll get you all the details.————————————————————————————————————————————-TranscriptNote, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)SUMMARY KEYWORDSpeople, stuart, programme, success, achieve, works, life, question, pavel, goals, nice, russia, read, limiting beliefs, held, mentor, beliefs, affirmations, fear, mindsetSPEAKERSPavel Verbnyak, Stuart WebbStuart Webb  00:43Hi, and welcome back to it's not rocket science, five questions over coffee. It's not coffee for me this afternoon. I'm already Caffeined up. So this is just some nice warm water with a piece of lime in the bottom. But it's enough to keep me going for this afternoon. And I'm here with Pablo, vermin. Yak. Pablo is a professional speaker, consultant coach, really very impressive background. And I've allowed him to sort of tell us a little bit about his background now, and how he got into what he's doing. And hopefully we're going to have a really interesting question. So welcome to, it's not rocket science. Pawel, thank you very much, Stuart. It's very nice to see you in to meet you. And thank you for the invitation to be on your show. It's great. This, it's my pleasure. It's my pleasure, Pavel. So to tell me Pavel, what's the what's the common problem that you see people have that you're trying to help them to solve? Yes, as you mentioned before, I'm professionals, speaker, coach and trainer. So I'm specialising on soft skills. So goal setting, mindset, and habits are the main expertise. And some of my clients coming to me with different kinds of questions how toPavel Verbnyak  02:00achieve much more in their professional and personal life. So I'm helping to eliminate some limiting beliefs and fears that holding them back. And most of them are subconscious. So we're fixing our mindset with fixing our limiting beliefs with with our clients. And it's very, very interesting process. Stuart, I'm sure you know, how it works, and habits and mindset. I think it says essential for our own success and goal achievement.Stuart Webb  02:33You know, Papa, I've been so aware of how often we have limits in our own beliefs, which stop us from achieving the potential that so many people have. So it's an important topic to solve.Pavel Verbnyak  02:48 Oh, yes. Oh, yes.Stuart Webb  02:50 So So what are the common problems that you find that people have tried and ways that they tried to solve some of these problems without you, your with help from people like yourself?Pavel Verbnyak  03:02Yeah. Most of my clients, even if intrapreneurs, leaders, managers, doesn't see the difference between goals, wishes and dreams, oh, when we set goals, when we write them down, when we make it specific, clear, when we find the resources we need, and find some blockages and limitations, it's getting much more clear. And why a lot of people doesn't doesn't have goals in their own life. There are a lot of information about that. There are different answers to that question, Stuart. First of all, most of them doesn't see the value of goals, nobody taught them. And nobody teaches them how to set goals, when they were kids, when they were at universities and so on. And also the main reason that a lot of people doesn't set and achieve goals, because because of fears and limitations in as you said before, in their own beliefs in on their own subconscious mind. What kinds of fears fear of rejection, fear of failure, fear of success, fear of new and fear of different kinds of fears, that helps us to to be alive and most of our fears and limitations now, not are not serving us or holding us back and when we find that these limitations are not good to us. We can change them we can put something good on our on our programmes because this is very, very important and powerful computer we have between our our years and we can we can reprogram our subconscious mind because 80% sense is psychology, you know exactly how it works. Because if you're successful in profession, if you're successful in relationships, that's because of your subconscious, and psychology, beliefs. And if you don't, that doesn't see the difference. Or if you don't like what you have, change your thoughts, change your mindset, change your programmes, change your beliefs, and you will see the difference in that in your life. And steward. That's how I started. That's how I started developing myself in this field, learning how it works, because I've got enough limiting beliefs and fears. Because you remember, in Soviet Union, it wasn't easy, it wasn't too easy to, to talk about money to talk about finances. I was born in 1987, for years before Soviet Union collapse. But in 1990s, in Russia and CIS countries, former Soviet republics, it wasn't easy to build businesses, or becomes financial successful. And because of because of that, and, and it's very nice to, to know how it works. And I decided, or I decided to find the answers. What's the difference between successful people and others? How do they think how do they act, and I found that that was my transformational point, that success is predictable is not an accident steward. And we have an abundant world, it doesn't really matter, you are in India, in Russia, in South Africa, or in Brazil, you can you can become successful if you know exactly what you want. If you take 100% responsibility for your own life for your results. And when you develop yourself constant and never ending professional and personal development, I believe is the key to success, long term success. Here,Stuart Webb  07:09probably I love some of what you're saying. And I'm just gonna just gonna circle back on a couple of things. I mean, you identified brilliantly there that some of the limiting beliefs that hold people back are in the fear of success, which I think is a wonderful way of putting it. And I think it's a great thing that you've said, and the fact that you base a lot of what you've just said in the fact that you've come from not not not just a sort of an organisation that's held you back, but but a whole system, a whole country that somehow held you back and you found fruit through your own personal perseverance, the way you can strive for success, I think is is a great backstory. And I think it's really something that a lot of people can relate to, because they're held back by family, they're held back by school, you're held back by so much more than just family and school. You were held back by society.Pavel Verbnyak  08:01Yeah, yeah. Yes, you are. And my mother visited me here in Moscow. Now I live in Moscow, my mom stayed in my hometown. And I hear from here steal some some words, like, oh, it too expensive, doesn't buy this. I can have I can afford that right now. But I still sometimes hear that voice in my own head. And it's, it's very, very nice to realise that I can change it. It doesn't matter where were you coming from? It's very important where you go in. And when you have these beliefs, when you have these dreams and goals, that's a stepping point. That's something show you where you should go because we all unique, Stuart, you and me and billions of people all over the world are unique. Nobody was like you and me, and nobody going to be in the future like us. So it's great to find what we are good and develop these points. Because we are something we are something for on this planet. And we can do something great we can create a masterpiece from our own life. And when we develop ourselves when we read books, when we talk with nice, interesting, successful people, because I believe that everyone is a better than, than, than me in some subjects in some thing. And I can learn from them. And I can learn from us too or I can learn from my followers, I can learn from my clients. I can learn from the waitress and something like that. And when we when we see that the universe and nature and life is happening for us it's helping us to grow is helping us to realise something we can achieve something wonderful.Stuart Webb  09:52Your enthusiasm is infectious. infectious, I love it. I love it. We have we have your Facebook page on the scroll at the bottom of the page. There are there are many free things that I know you're trying to help people with. Can you tell us about where you can get some of that from?Pavel Verbnyak  10:10Yeah. Stuart Yeah, I'm posting some articles. And I'm author of several books. Most of them aren't really Russian. But in India, some of them are, I am English. And also I interview some great people as, as you are Stewart. I like interviewing called my private radio show Olympic champions coming to my show and sportsmen intrapreneurs. And this is something common. When we ask questions, we can see that it's, as I said, before, their success, sports or professional or financial success is predictable. They did something every single day for several years, 510 or 15 years. And they achieved that. And when we can, we can model them, Stuart, you know that that success leaves clues. And when we do the same when we think the same, the law of attraction, the law of cause and effect works all the time. And we I saw that in my own life, Stuart, because I was born in small town close, close to Finland, in St. Petersburg and northwestern part of Russia. And nobody was wealthy in my family, in my peer group, group. And I decided, wow, I can I can create my my own life experiment. If that book, if that author if that person suggested me to form this habit, suggest me to read Jenny 10 pages every single day, suggest me visualise or meditate or use affirmations. Broadly that works. I can do that. I can I can create my own experiment. And I did that steward. For two years, I didn't see any difference. I thought, Oh, nothing changes. But when I saw back when I, what I what I thought, Oh, I found some nice, nice things that changes in my in my, in my personal and professional life. When when we become better inside our life, outer life become becoming better step by step. It's not easy. It's not fast. It's not quick, but I felt very passionate about that you are dead, I found that it works very well.Stuart Webb  12:32I think I think you're I think your point about repeatable, modules, repeatable, repeatable behaviours, you know, those, those things that we do frequently actually do shapers don't they have, I'm a great believer in, in, in getting up first thing in the morning and reading a chapter of a book or something like that, where, where I've learned from that because I believe that as a, as a as a business mentor, my job is to give respect to the profession that I that I wish to be a part of and and to and to better myself so that I can better other people. So you're right, this modelling behaviour modelling the the success of others, is absolutely important so that we can actually understand how they got to where they are, and then just take on board those lessons and apply them to our lives. Because, you know, we can model behaviour and see change even though we don't recognise it in ourselves.Pavel Verbnyak  13:28Yeah, thank you very much for your comment, Stuart, I believe that we can create something great from from ourselves. Nobody was born, great productive leader or manager or public speaker or lawyer. Everything start from a bottom everything starts from zero. And when you decide exactly who you are, what you want to achieve in your life, and do something step by step to that. And you mentioned morning routines to work. I love that very much. And I take my morning meals. So I am in 5am club. So I wake up at 5am and I invest my first couple of hours in myself. So I I do some exercises in the park. I'm very blessed. I live in the park close to the park in Moscow. And I do some activities exercises. Even if it's dark, it's dark at five or 6am and I do something for my body. I listen audio tape, I audiobook or a podcast, or listening affirmations with my own voice. So I programmed my subconscious mind. Then I visualised my future, my goals and meditate. So I take this morning meal, meditation exercises, affirmation learning, so I do something. I do something for my body. I do something for my mind. I do something for my emotional state. And it's great. It It's Kaizen philosophy kaizen. So step by step it doesn't really, it's, it's some, some people say, Oh, I cannot find one or two hours, start from five minutes, five minutes, you can invest, you can find five minutes for yourself, when you invest five minutes in a year is going to beStuart Webb  15:21powerful. I love I love. First of all, I love your I love your your acronym meal, I think that is absolutely brilliant. I should make sure we capture that and put that in the notes. And the idea that you say, yes, you're absolutely right. The journey of 1000 miles starts with the first step. Yes, nobody can find two hours until they decide they want to create some time. So I was talking to somebody very recently. And they were saying, How do I concentrate, and I said, start concentrating for five minutes, you can concentrate for five minutes. And then tomorrow, concentrate for 10. And then tomorrow, and the next day concentrate for 15. Eventually, you will concentrate for an hour, but you cannot concentrate for an hour today. You have to concentrate for five minutes and start small.Pavel Verbnyak  16:04Yeah, absolutely. And the same with waking up a little bit earlier. You shouldn't wake up two hours earlier tomorrow, start from five minutes earlier, to after tomorrow, 10 minutes earlier. And your your self esteem self confidence will grow up. And because of your self esteem grows, everything in your life start to be better. So your relationships will become better. Your financial situation situation will become better because of your self esteem and self confidence.Stuart Webb  16:37I love it. I love it. I love it. Tell me what is the and I think I know the answer to this. I want you to contact to a book which you are finding the most useful and impactful in your business at the moment.Pavel Verbnyak  16:48Yes. I'm very passionate about psychology of success. Your before our podcast I show you I showed you my book I'm reading again. That's one of my mentor is Jack Canfield. I'm certified trainer with him. I took his train the trainer programme back in 2014. I went to the United States. And I think they're just three people in Russia, who certified with Jack. It was it was expensive for me that time Stewart, it was around $20,000 to pay to be involved in that programme. But I decided I want to learn from the best. I want to become a trainer as well. And, and I earned that amount of money. And I applied for the programme. And it was great transformational year for me. And another mentor Stewart, I'm part you're an expert of Brian Tracy Academy here in Russia. So Brian Tracy is my another mentor and role model. I know him personally I know his family. And He's great. He's also great. So I'm in psychology of success and in the success principles. So how to form new habits, how to improve your mindset, how to be productive, how to achieve much more you're capable of and how to unlock your potential. So that's soft skills. I'm my expertise will notStuart Webb  18:15brilliant? Listen, I'm sure you could teach us so much more. But there is a question that I think you wish I was asking you which I haven't asked you so far. So what is the question that I should have asked you? And please give us the answer.Pavel Verbnyak  18:31Or store? That's very good question us. I'm going to share with our former store that you sent me these kinds of questions. But I thought, Oh, I'm not going to think about that right now. I'm going to think when I when Stuart asked me this question, Stuart. That's very, very good question. Very deep, deep, nice question. I would say, What would you say to yourself? To Pavel 15 years old, for example? Yes. That's very nice, deep coaching question, Stuart. And if you ask me this question, I would say bottle start early enough. Start read. You should like to read because to be honest, I didn't like to read. But around when I was 18. I started to read Stuart and I love that. And I think constant and never ending improvement is a key to to long term success. You can achieve anything you want. Because there abundance of information about any question you have in your head. There are about information and answers about how to achieve your own goals. And I think I would I would say to power battle I believe in you. You're great guy. You're unique person. Don't be afraid to ask for help. Don't be afraid to go forward. And don't be afraid to fail. There's no fail or there's just lessons.Stuart Webb  20:02I think that would be a great thing to say to 15 year old puzzle because I know many 15 year old too, don't like to read and are afraid of failure. And we need to get them to understand that failure is not failure. Failure is an opportunity to learn. And and how does a baby learn to walk? It falls down a lot. And it never ever thinks that was a failure. I'll sit here and just wait. It thinks it just gets back up and starts trying again. So we need to get people away from the fear of failure. And reading is such a good habit pub off. So glad to hear you have started reading since you were a 15 year old boy.Pavel Verbnyak  20:39Yes, yes, your thank you very much. Probably I have this teacher's DNA steward. My mother is a teacher, and a lab librarian. She's retired not right now. But she loves to teach a lot of people and my grandfather as well. And probably because of that I had this passion to teach to provide some workshops and my master classes and seminars, I didn't go to be to that speaking and coaching career and business because of money. No, Stewart, I went there because I had something to share. And if you if you if you do what you love, if you do what you're passionate about, the money will follow you know that exactly how it works, because the money is the same, the right proportion of value you you provide. If you go oh, I'm going to oil business, because because there are a lot of money, no, probably you will not be happy and successful. But when you decide exactly or I want to go there I want to go because I like painting or communicate with people or travelling. You can earn money with what you love. And follow that follow that you're unique.Stuart Webb  21:57What a great way to end pebble that has been absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. I'm just going to let people know that if you want to be on the newsletter list so that you get an email the day that we record this so that you can join and watch exciting and interesting people like Pavel come and talk to us get onto that list by subscribing. TCA dot FYI, forward slash subscribe, that's TCA dot FYI, forward slash subscribe that will get you on to the newsletter that so that you can hear in advance that we're going to be introducing people like Pavel, Pavel, thank you so much for spending time with us. You have such an enthusiasm. I'm sure we could we could talk for many hours. But although this has been really brilliant, please keep keep keep bringing that enthusiasm, and letting us know how you're doing on Facebook.Pavel Verbnyak  22:48Thank you very much sewer. It was great pleasure talking with you. Thank you for your nice questions. And thank you for everything you do. You're you're a role model for a lot of people all over the world. And it's the law of attraction works all the time. So if I attracted you in my life, you're attracted to me because of the vibrations.Stuart Webb  23:08It's the pleasure has been entirely mine. Pavel, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much.Pavel Verbnyak  23:12Talk to you soon. Get full access to It's Not Rocket Science! at thecompleteapproach.substack.com/subscribe

Ben and Lexi reminisce about the quintessential coming of age movies of our youth - kind of. Dork You Forget About Me find Ben and Lexi looking back at classic 80's teen movies. Both Lexi and Ben struggled to fit in with humans and had to turn to movies to learn how to be a teen, which means watching copious amounts of John Hughes! In this episode, Ben and Lexi dork out about classic John Hughes movies, which holding them up to the test of time. Have these movies aged well? Listen now and find out! Show Notes:Lexi and Ben talked about the following movies:Uncle BuckThe Breakfast Club16 CandlesPretty in PinkHome AloneFootlooseWeird ScienceFerris Bueller's Day OffPump Up the VolumeCan't Hardly WaitAnd more!The  full list of John Hughes movies can be found hereYou can find the episode of Art Intervention we mentioned hereWe talked about  Margaret Atwood being a TERF and you can read about the 2018 conflict here and the more recent one hereSOCIALS:Here's where you can find us!Lexi's website and twitter and instagramBen's website and instagram and where to buy his book: Amazon.ca / Comixology / Ind!go / Renegade ArtsDork Matter's website(WIP) and twitter and instagramIf you're enjoying Dork Matters, we'd really appreciate a nice rating and review on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your pods. It would very much help us get this show to the other dorks out there.“We're all pretty bizarre. Some of us are just better at hiding it, that's all.” Transcript:Lexi  00:00One time I was driving to work and listening to like, you know, rap and I like aggressive hip hop, and I was listening--Ben  00:08[chuckles] Someday I'll ask you to define that, but not now.Lexi  00:12Okay, so, like, for example, I was listening to Run The Jewels one day, [Run The Jewels plays] which I wouldn't even classify as, like, super aggressive anyway, and I was trying to psych myself, like, "I gotta get in this building. I gotta be, like, in a good mood and talk to people all day," and so I was listening to it, fully cranked, and the windows were flexing, and I didn't realize there was just like a sea of children sitting there watching me, like, pound coffee, and try to, like, psych myself and, like, "Get out of the car, go inside,"  and it's just like, "Well, whoa, nope! Sorry, kids. I'm just gonna turn that off real quick". [music stops] I don't know what happened. [laughs]Ben  00:50I don't know how to get myself psyched up. When I worked in an office, I had about a 15- to 20-minute walk to work to, sort of like, just not be the person I normally am, and become work person. That didn't always work. I still a pretty grumpy shithead, usually. I don't like being bothered, and, you know, being in an office means you're just constantly bothered. It doesn't matter what you're trying to do.Lexi  01:15And you have to make small talk. Like, yuck. Ben  01:17Yeah, I had to learn how to do that. I've always been an introvert and making eye contact with people, when you have a conversation and just like... And so, I'm actually pretty good at just talking bullshit now with people. I don't like it. I don't like doing it. I don't like this other version of me is just talking to people, and I'm just like, "Eugh. Glad I'm not that guy."Lexi  01:36There are so many times where I'll finish doing, like, a presentation or having small talk with someone, and I'll go away and I'll be like, "Oh, she's terrible," and I'm referring to me. Like, I hate that part of me like, [upbeat] "Hey, how's it going?" I'm like, "Eugh! God."Ben  01:51Yeah. So that's an interesting thing with, like, being a stay-at-home parent now too, is like, I don't get to go to a different place and be a different person for a while, and divorce myself from who I think I am, versus the person I have to be in a work setting. Now, it's all just me, and it's all just gotta try to do well all the time. Lexi  02:11That sounds hard. Oh.Ben  02:13Can't phone it in like I used to when I'd go to the office. [laughs]Lexi  02:17Well, I mean, you could. You could just like plunk him in the laundry basket in front of the TV.Ben  02:21No. I mean, I'm incapable of doing that.Lexi  02:24That's good. That's good.Ben  02:25I am your Cyclops archetype. I am responsible to a fault. "No Fun Ben", I think, is what I  used to be called.Lexi  02:33Oh, I was the old wet blanket. Ben  02:35You know, you guys would be like, "Let's go to a party and get drunk." I'm like, "I don't know about that. I gotta be home by 9 PM and, you know, we're underage." [laughs]Lexi  02:43I do remember being at a party at your place when you lived with Brandon, and in the middle of the party, you did start doing dishes. [Ben laughs] I remember, I was like, "Hmm, this is interesting."Ben  02:55They were stacking up. You gotta keep 'em clean. You gotta keep them clean. That's just respectful to other people.Lexi  03:00Fun is fun, guys, but come on. Like, clean up after yourselves.Ben  03:04"No, no. Y'all keep having fun. I'll clean the dishes." That's a nice thing for me to do. [laughs]Lexi  03:08I was the wet blanket in terms of like, you know, at the sleepovers, I'd go, "Oh, it's getting late, ladies. It's probably some shut-eye time."Ben  03:16Oh, god. You're lucky you didn't get Sharpied every time.Lexi  03:20Those people, I think maybe they were like, "Is she...? Is she, like, you know...? Should we be nice to her because she's not all there?"Ben  03:29"The same as us."Lexi  03:29Yeah. And sometimes I kind of wondered, like, "Did they think that I am maybe on the spectrum or something?" which I kind of wonder if I am sometimes.Ben  03:38God, I wonder all the time if I am, and I'm not trying to say that as a joke. Like, I constantly--Lexi  03:41No, no.Ben  03:43--wonder if my inability to connect with people is something neurodivergent.Lexi  03:49Oh, do you do-- okay, sometimes I'll watch people. I'll watch-- like, especially when it comes to women, and when I was a teenager, I would watch groups of girls interact, and I felt like I was watching, like, a nature program. Like, "Ah. That is how the female species puts on makeup," and it never made sense to me to like go up to them and be like, "Hey, gals, let's all put our makeup on together." I was just, like, so awkward that I didn't understand how to talk to them.Ben  04:18Yeah. The thing for me was that I was just always felt on outside, as well. Like, I never felt like I had a group of friends in any situation. Part of that was moving schools a lot. Part of that was never feeling like I connected with other individuals. So yeah. No, I definitely should probably figure out if I'm--Lexi  04:35But I think that that's a great thing that people are learning more about themselves at all times because sometimes, like, I'll talk to adults that are like, "Well, I probably have a learning disability and that would have made school a lot easier, but what's the point in finding out now?" I'm like, "Well, why wouldn't you?"Ben  04:51How would that make... Well and, like, record scratch. [scratching record DJ-style] How would that make school more easy for you? Would you have had maybe more support? Maybe, but maybe not. It depends on where you were, what kind of, like, financial supports the school had, what your parents believed. Like, you know, there's no reason to think, like, if you have a disability, you have it easy. That's a wild take.Lexi  05:11Yeah, I think you can... You're right. Like, it depends on where you are, that you can access different types of supports, but I think we're also moving towards a more inclusive education model in the old Canada, where you should be treating everybody... It's like, it's technically universal design for learning where everybody should benefit from like, you know, flexible due dates, and, like, more understanding progressive assessment practices, because, yeah, like if you do have a disability, and you need a little bit more support, that's great, but if you don't, you can still get support, too, and that's fine, too. Ben  05:49Yeah. Lexi  05:50But, ah, that's interesting. This is maybe a good, like, introduction, though, because as teenagers when we were watching, trying to learn how to be a teenager, you turn to movies to try to understand, like, how to fit in.Ben  06:05Right. So the question is, like, "Should we have ever even looked at those other groups and people and been like, 'I'm supposed to be that way?' Or was that something we were taught by John Hughes and his movies?"Lexi  06:18Oh, John Hughes. I'm so conflicted. Ben  06:21So we're here tonight, as you've certainly guessed, to talk about '80s teen movies. You know 'em. You love 'em. We are going to revisit our memories of those movies, talk about some things that don't really hold up, some things that do just fine, and some things that are problematic and it matters to dorks. Wow, that was rough. Lexi  06:47That was-- I won't lie about it. It wasn't your best.Ben  06:51No, let's hit the theme song and let's try again after. [Lexi laughs] [theme music "Dance" by YABRA plays] Ben  07:22Welcome to Dork Matters--Voiceover  07:24[echoing] Dork Matters.Ben  07:24--the show by and for dorks, made by dorks, in a tree of dorks. We're like little dork elves, Keebler elves that make you dork cookies.Lexi  07:34Oh, I like that. Ben  07:36Yeah.Lexi  07:36That's a nice little image.Ben  07:38Yeah. Lexi  07:39We grow on trees.Ben  07:40[chuckling] Yeah, or are we are inside of trees, baking tree.Lexi  07:44Yeah, 'cause we don't like the outside so much. Ben  07:46No, I'm not an outside person. [Lexi laughs] I am your Dad Dork host, Ben Rankel, and with me, as always is...Lexi  07:53Your Movie Buff Dork, Lexi Hunt.Ben  07:56Oh, wow. No alliteration at all. You're just flying--Lexi  07:59Nah, just gettin' right in there. You know what? Fuck it.Ben  08:03You are going to have to be the movie buff dork tonight. I have tried to bone up on our subject, and I'm like, "Good God, I need a week to prepare for this by rewatching every single teen movie from the '80s," because that's what we're here to talk about tonight, or today, or whenever you're listening to this. Time is a flat circle. [chuckles] We're here to talk about teen movies of the '80s.Lexi  08:26[sing-songy] I love this episode.Ben  08:30The good, the bad, the ugly, the ones that hold up really well, the ones that do not hold up. We're gonna just shoot the shit on teen movies 'cause that's what we do. Lexi  08:39Oh, yeah.Ben  08:40We're gonna get a bunch of shit wrong, as usual, and that's half the fun here.Lexi  08:44Can I start by saying, like, how many movies did John Hughes create? My god, that man was prolific. Ben  08:51Yeah. So it depends on if we wanna look at whether he directed it, or produced it, or whatever, but if we just go by Wikipedia filmography, let's count these out. 1, 2, 3, 4... (fast-forwarded counting) 38. 38 different films.Lexi  09:16And a lot of them, like, I didn't actually know that he did some of them. Some of them, of course, I was like, "I knew that one. That's a John Hughes," but, like, Maid in Manhattan? What?Ben  09:27Yeah. Flubber.Lexi  09:28He was part of Flubber.Ben  09:30He was part of Flubber. He produced Flubber. Yeah, all the Home Alone's, right up to Home Alone 4: Taking Back the House, that seminal classic. We watch it every year at Christmas. Not the earlier three Home Alone's, just Home Alone 4, the one everyone remembers.Lexi  09:47Yeah, the one that went straight to VHS release.Ben  09:50Yeah. I think, unfortunately, it was even DVD at that point. Just DVD. [Lexi groans]Lexi  09:55But then there's so many great ones too, that... Actually, I was talking to John about, you know, "What movies did you guys watch when you were growing up that we you would classify as a teen movie?" and he was more in the action side of the '80s and '90s movies, so he was like, "I can talk to you about The Rock. How do you feel about that?" But not so much... I think he said that they watched Breakfast Club in school, which I find incredible. Like, "Why did you watch that in school?!" Like, listening to it, there's so many messed-up things like Emilio Estevez talks about supergluing a guy's butt crack together. Like, "I know, and I'm going to show my grade nines today." [chuckles theatrically]Ben  10:38And that's one of the tamer things that happens in that film, like, that doesn't hold up. [Lexi laughs] I mean, we might as well get into it. Let's start with the seminal classic, The Breakfast Club with, you know, the greatest brat cast that you've ever seen. Everyone has seen this movie. We all know how it ends, that jumping fist pump in the air. [Simple Minds "Don't You (Forget About Me)" plays]Lexi  11:00You can hear the music right now, can't you?Ben  11:01[sings] Don't you forget about me.Lexi  11:03And I gotta say, best soundtrack. Ben  11:07[sings] Forget about you.Lexi  11:10[sings] Don't you... [speaks] I also like that like weird slide guitar. [sings descending glissando, imitating slide guitar] That's a great '80s sound right there.Ben  11:17[chuckling] I want you to do it again. [Lexi sings imitation along with slide guitar] Nice. Let's start a band.Lexi  11:23I can play the mouth trumpet. [laughs] And that's... Okay, that sounds really dirty, but it's actually like... [sings melody, buzzing lips] [laughs]Ben  11:29I can play the mouth harp, as well, as long as we're embarrassing ourselves. [Lexi laughs] [harmonica plays] That's right. I play harmonica, as if I couldn't get any loser-ier. That's a word.Lexi  11:37Hey, man, I played the clarinet in the old high-school band for many years. [clarinet plays basic melody] Ben  11:41I think I played clarinet at one point, too, in the band. Lexi  11:46It's a great instrument. So Breakfast Club, which is weird, because Sixteen Candles... Okay, let's let's go through--Ben  11:55I feel like Sixteen Candles is probably the greatest offender of any teen movie--Lexi  11:59Oh.Ben  11:59--we're gonna talk about.Lexi  12:00It's so bad. Yeah. Ben  12:03And, you know, everyone loves Breakfast Club. I feel like maybe Sixteen Candles is a little less watched, still. I mean, we can talk about 'em both, but let's turn to Breakfast Club, first. Let's talk about some of the fucked-up shit that you remember happening and see if it's all true. You guys let us know if we make up anything.Lexi  12:19I couldn't get over the fact that, first of all, I was like, "Who the hell has detention on the weekend?" Because that's more of a punishment to the teachers than anything. Like--Ben  12:29Yeah, that's not happening. Lexi  12:31And what parent would be like, "Yeah"? Parents would be like, "No, I'm not doing that." [laughs]Ben  12:37Yeah, "You wanna keep my kid half an hour after school, that's one thing."Lexi  12:42Like, "Go nuts." Ben  12:42But yeah, they're not coming in on a weekend." And what teacher wants to do that? Like, you're not getting paid for that. Is that extra-curricular at that point? [Lexi blows through lips]Lexi  12:50I think that there's just so many issues with detention as-- like, that's a whole other issue. But to, like, spend your weekend... I know they're trying to demonstrate that, like, the character of-- god, what is his name? The assistant principal who hauls everybody in. It just shows what a miserable git he is. But, eugh, to me, like, that, already, I was like, "This movie is just setting me up for"--Ben  13:15Principal Richard Vernon, who, like, already is a problem, because this guy just treats these children--Lexi  13:21He's so horrible.Ben  13:22--and they are children, just awful. Yeah, just like a way that he would have lost his job if it was nowadays. There's no way he keeps his job past that weekend. There's no way he keeps his job past, like, his first interaction with, I think, Emilio Estevez with the stupid devil horns and, like, [in devil voice] "the rest of your natural born..." That'd be on TikTok. In, like, five minutes, there'd be a whole crowd of people knocking down his doors. The school board trustees, they'd be like, "Nah, you don't have a job anymore."Lexi  13:46And, as well they should. Like, you can't... There's one part in the movie where Judd Nelson's character--Ben  13:53Bender.Lexi  13:54--is playing basketball in the gym, and he's like, "I'm thinking about going out for a scholarship," and that's such a great point that, like, he could have just been like, "Okay, let's play," and then like, look, you're building relationship and you're not being a complete d-bag. Then, like, get to know him! Just play basketball with him. It's, literally, a Saturday, and you're sitting in your office. You may as well.Ben  14:16Yeah. Instead, he yells at him, if I remember correctly, and tells him he's never going anywhere. Lexi  14:21Yeah, that he's a, you know, piece of trash. Just, you don't talk to people that way. It's terrible. So, it's so, just, offensive to... You should never treat anyone like that, and you should never, 100%, have teachers speaking to students that way. That's just unacceptable.Ben  14:38The movie is in the National Film Registry of the Library of Congress, for its culturally, historically, and aesthetically significant nature, so that's something that I didn't just read off of Wikipedia.Lexi  14:51I mean, it is a huge part of culture that, kind of, changed the way that we, you know, talk about things.Ben  14:57Do you remember where the movie's set?Lexi  15:00They're all kind of set in the same...Ben  15:03Middle America. Lexi  15:04Yeah, like a Michigan kind of place.Ben  15:08Michigan is what I would guess. I have no idea. I can't remember any more. It's a very white cast, as well, which is interesting.Lexi  15:15Oh, yeah.Ben  15:16Yeah, what are some other egregious issues that we have with that one?Lexi  15:19Well, I don't like the way that Claire, so Molly Ringwald's character, she is berated, harassed by Bender the entire movie. He's got his head between her legs at one point, because he's hiding, and, at the end of the movie, she, like, goes and makes out with him and they become, like, boyfriend and girlfriend because he's wearing her earring and, like, you don't reward, like, a guy that treats you like trash, a person that treats you like trash. They're not gonna change. [laughs]Ben  15:51Yeah. I, 100%, remember it seeming, sort of, weird that that was, like, his reward for having some sort of character redemption is that Molly Ringwald will date him. And that's supposed to be character growth for her, is that she's not so stuck up anymore, she'll date somebody who's... poor and abusive?Lexi  16:07I guess? Or that, like, she's pushing back against her parents or... Like, I didn't really care for that part as much. Ben  16:18Yeah. Lexi  16:18But then, like, then you've got Claire and Allison, at one point, doing, like, makeovers and Allison's the kind of the quiet one who's the artist and the freak who's-- she's choosing to be at the detention instead of being sent there, and so Claire gives her the makeover and, all of a sudden, she's She's All That-ed. She's pretty, and now Emilio Estevez's character, Andrew, is, like, into her. If it wasn't for a lame... Before, he didn't see her, but as soon as Molly Ringwald puts some makeup on her, and pulled her hair back, well, now Allison's a person. I just thought like, "Ugh, that sends the wrong message."Ben  16:55Yeah.Lexi  16:56But, as a teenager, you're like, "Oh, that's how I get the attention of a boy."Ben  17:01Yeah, "I've gotta conform to beauty standards that are set out for me." Yeah, it's not great. It doesn't hold up. It feels wrong nowadays. I mean, it's really difficult to watch and think anything positive of it anymore.Lexi  17:14[laughs] The soundtrack was good. Ben  17:16Yeah, the soundtrack was good. Lexi  17:17But then John and I are having a conversation about that, and he's like, "Yeah, but at the time, that's what was a successful movie, and so, how fair is it for us to judge something from the past by today's standards?" Like, "Well, it's a difficult one. Like--"Ben  17:33Absolutely. Lexi  17:34I think we have to.Ben  17:36I mean, yeah, and also, like, what does that really mean, the idea of fair? Like, I mean, it feels sort of like the wrong question to apply to, sort of, reexamining past media. Like, you don't get a pass just because it was from the past.Lexi  17:54Yeah, there you go.Ben  17:55And the whole point of looking at something from the future is to reanalyze it from the scope that we have now. Like, you can do that and still acknowledge that, at the time, that general awareness of these sorts of things wasn't what it is now, but that's not really the point, I guess, is what I'm getting at.Lexi  18:12I can understand the criticism of like, yeah, you know, it's a questionable movie, but at the time, it was very progressive. And even now, like, I'm sure there are some TV shows, movies, books, whatever, that we think are pretty progressive that, in the future, people have problems with, but that's the point. Like, if we're all staying the exact same, that's the issue. Could we not be able to move forward, and then look back and be like, "Eugh. I shouldn't have done that"? Let's have a conversation about it.Ben  18:37I think the world and where it existed, and when it was made, is not where we are now. Like, that's not really the point. So Breakfast Club, like, none of these movies are really going to hold up to every standard that we have nowadays.Lexi  18:47No, it's impossible.Ben  18:48The bigger question is like, "Can I still enjoy this media the same way?" And you can't, especially... I mean, I don't think this movie, you can really... Like, I can watch it. I could enjoy parts of it, I suppose, but I don't know. I don't know if I really even would try to rewatch this movie. It used to come on TBS a lot, so we didn't have much of a choice, but...Lexi  19:10Yeah, I think now I would fast forward through a lot of it. Ben  19:14Yeah, I can't see myself going back to rewatch this, unlike a movie like "Footloose", which I still think is a fun watch. Same era, same sort of idea. There's a lot going on in that movie, too that's kind of effed up. Like, I think the main character, whose name I cannot remember, but it's Kevin Bacon, he moves to the small town where dancing and music is outlawed, and the girl that he falls for, her dad's abusive, her boyfriend's abusive, but I think, at one point, her boyfriend actually just punches her, and I'm just like, "Why would even?" Like, [sighs] in that sense, they're not trying to glorify that behavior necessarily, but it's... Yeah, so that's the interesting thing. Maybe that's what you gotta look at is the depiction of the thing in the movie something thing that they're doing as a "We're not thinking critically about this because that's the era we're from," or are they presenting it in that era, but they're saying, "This isn't a thing that should be happening," and that's a tough one. I can't remember that movie well enough. But I still like the dancin'.Lexi  20:17You like the dancin' part of it, hey?Ben  20:19Yep. Kevin Bacon, finally, in 2013, I think, admitted that he had a dance double for parts of that, but he did a lot of the dancing himself, he said.Lexi  20:28Did we not know that? I thought that that was widely accepted.Ben  20:32I don't know. It was just a thing I remember reading a while back, but yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like, that movie, I could rewatch again. I feel like it's worth going back for the dancing. I don't know what would bring me back to Breakfast Club, aside from the soundtrack, which I can just listen to on my own.Lexi  20:46Yeah, I would just listen to the s... Like, if it was on the TV.Ben  20:50I guess I like Emilio Estevez. I like Molly Ringwald. Like--Lexi  20:53Then watch "Mighty Ducks", Ben. Ben  20:55Yeah, and that's what I do. We're gonna have to do an episode on "The Mighty Ducks". I love "The Mighty Ducks: Game Changers" on Disney+. Lexi  21:02Oh, there you go. Yes. Ben  21:04Disney+ isn't sponsoring our show, but if they want to. [Lexi laughs] I like "Game Changers". It's a little weird. It's a little bit--Lexi  21:13I can't say that I've watched it, but, you know, I'll take a look-see.Ben  21:17Yeah. Oh, are we gonna do a "Dawson's Creek" episode or teen TV dramas of the 2000s? And those are-- a lot of those are trash but, like--Lexi  21:26Yes.Ben  21:26Yeah.Lexi  21:27I could talk about those, just "Smallville". Oh, my god. We need to talk about "Buffy". What are we doing, here?Ben  21:32That's an interesting one, like, 'cause, you know, 'cause you have to deal with the Joss Whedon. I call him Josh now. He lost his privilege at two "s"-es.Lexi  21:41You know, you strike an "s" off the name. Okay. We have to talk about Sixteen Candles, though, because it is the worst.Ben  21:50The worst. There is nothing--Lexi  21:53I think that a couple come close. Ben  21:55I could rewatch Breakfast Club, yeah. Like, I could re-watch Breakfast Club. There's a lot I don't like about it, and a lot that doesn't hold up, a lot of analysis of, sort of like, teen issues that doesn't really feel like it really got it, but I could rewatch it. I will not re-watch Sixteen Candles. I mean, give us a rundown. Give us the point-by-point. What's wrong with Sixteen Candles, aside from everything?Lexi  22:17If you've never watched Sixteen Candles before, don't. I will just run through it really quick. Basically, it's a party movie. Sam, play by Molly Ringwald, it's her birthday. It's her 16th birthday, but her entire family has basically forgotten, and she's really pissed off about the whole thing, so she's a real b-word all day at school. Meanwhile, she has this huge crush on this guy Jake Ryan who's, like, the quintessential hot dude of the school. Ben  22:42The perfect dude. Yeah.Lexi  22:44And, like, everyone of their little friend group is just like, "No, he's got such a hot girlfriend." They even show her showering naked in the girls' change room to really hammer home the fact that this lady is like a full-blown babe.Ben  22:59Wait. I do not remember this part of the movie. There's a naked scene of Molly Ringworld as a teenager?Lexi  23:06Yeah. Not Molly Ringwald. It was the girlfriend.Ben  23:08Oh, I'm sorry. I missed that. Lexi  23:10Molly Ringwald and her creepy friend... It's so creepy. They're leering and watching her shower because Molly Ringwald is comparing her chest to Jake Ryan's girlfriend to be like, "Oh, she's such a... She's a woman and I'm a girl. Why would he ever pay attention to me?" because boobs are the only thing that matter, apparently. Ben  23:10Mm.Lexi  23:30And then, meanwhile, so at the same time, Sam, Molly Ringwald, her grandparents come to her house, and they bring their foreign exchange student.Ben  23:41No. We can't even get into the foreign exchange student. It's so bad.Lexi  23:45It's so bad. I'm not even gonna. Like, you can go look it up. I'm not gonna say his name because it makes me feel uncomfortable, if I'm honest, but it's like a derogatory name that is just, like, it's just so offensive, and every time he's--Ben  23:58It's intended to mimic what white people make as sounds when they try to, you know, do Asian voices or language, and it's just a continuous shit show of racism.Lexi  24:12Oh, Ben, every time the character is on the screen, a gong sounds.Ben  24:15Yeah, I remember that part.Lexi  24:16Like, oh. [groans frustratedly] So then, Sam goes to the dance because she still has a thing for Jake, and she has to bring people with her, and now enter Michael C. Hall.Ben  24:17Oh, he's Ducky, right?Lexi  24:31And his creepy little character because... No, that's "Pretty In Pink". Come on. Jesus Christ, Lexi. Get your shit together.Ben  24:39Oh, god. I'm mixing up movies. Well, I'm sorry that all good John Hughes movies start to blend together after a while. [Lexi laughs] Sorry, I can't specify which Molly Ringwald film we're talking about. She wears the same thing in every movie, too.Lexi  24:51No. She... Ben  24:52She looks exactly the same.Lexi  24:53She... Well, yeah, that's good.Ben  24:54I'm pretty sure she's in a pink dress in every movie.Lexi  24:56Okay, I will accept that. Anthony Michael Hall's character is Ted, and they refer to him as "Farmer Ted" the entire movie, which I don't really understand why that's the thing.Ben  25:06Oh, he's the one that gets sent home with what's-her-face? Lexi  25:09Yes. Ben  25:10Right? When she's drunk, and he, basically...Lexi  25:11Yeah, right?Ben  25:13It's a date rape situation. How fun. Lexi  25:15Well, and first, like, he won't leave Sam alone at the dance. He keeps following her around, won't take no for an answer, and she basically has to barter with him to piss off by giving him her panties. So... And then he pretends that he like got them, however, and is cheered on by, like, a full bathroom full of dorks-- not our people-- but then this devolves into a party at Jake's house. Everybody kind of winds up at this Jake's house party, where Jake's girlfriend is drunk and kind of an asshole. He kicks them all out and gives Ted the keys to his car, and his passed-out girlfriend in the backseat, and long story short, he winds up making out with her when she comes to, eventually.Ben  25:59Yeah, I remember that.Lexi  26:00And, when she asks, "Did you take advantage of me?" and he said, "No,"  and she was like, "Cool." [laughs] Like, what?!Ben  26:08Wait. Don't they actually end up, like, doing it in that movie? And neither of them remember it, or am I thinking of another movie again?Lexi  26:15It could. You know what? Ben  26:16Remember that they, like--Lexi  26:17I haven't seen it in a while.Ben  26:18"I don't remember if we did it or not," and then they're both like, "Yeah, we did it," and it's like, that's supposed to be cool or something, and I'm like-- and, like, a virtuous moments where--Lexi  26:24That does sound about right. Ben  26:25Yeah, I remember throwing up. Like, I don't think that movie even sat well with me in the '90s when I was a teen, seeing it for the first time. I was like...Lexi  26:32[whispers] No.Ben  26:34"..eugh." Yeah,  Sixteen Candles is gross. What else? Is there anything else gross about  Sixteen Candles that we need to mention before we move on? Don't rewatch Sixteen Candles. It's no good.Lexi  26:42Don't. Well, it ends with Sam getting Jake and he gets her a birthday cake, and, you know, it's this beautiful moment between the two of them, but it's just like, she spent the entire movie comparing herself to other people, about how she was shit and not good enough for him, and he spends the entire movie pissed off at the world that he lives in because he's, like, this wealthy, white dude with a dumb girlfriend, and he's brutal to her. Like, he's really mean to his girlfriend, like, sends her off to be, like, you know, ravaged by some stranger.Ben  27:15Yeah. He sends her off to get raped. Lexi  27:17Yeah. And then it's like, "Okay, movie over." Ben  27:19Yeah, and I remember him also saying like, a bunch of really crass shit to her before, because she's drunk, and being like, "I could abuse you all I want if I wanted to. Yeah, it's super fucked-up and that's supposed to be a virtue for this guy--Lexi  27:31Yeah, he's the good one.Ben  27:32--that he looks down on her for being drunk.Lexi  27:34Oh.Ben  27:35Yeah. Fuckin' dumpster fire movie, and so this is why, like, people, you bring these up and they'll be like, "I fucking hate Ron Hughes." Yeah, Ron Hughes. I don't know who that is, but I hate him, too, just for sounding like John Hughes. [Lexi laughs] Fuck you, Ron.Lexi  27:50But, I think it's also like, the genre of, like, rom coms. Like, eugh. This is where it's kind of like stemmed from some of these teen movies . People think, "Like, this is maybe like the norm?" Like, "No, it isn't. This isn't good."Ben  28:04What's next on our on our shit shower?Lexi  28:07"Weird Science".Ben  28:09Are we doing "Pretty in Pink" at some point?Lexi  28:11"Pretty in Pink", technically, comes after "Weird Science". "Weird Science" was released in 1985.Ben  28:16Oh, we're doing these chronologically? Okay, my bad. Okay, "Weird Science" it is. So like, are we even gonna find teen... Like, John Hughes defined this era and defined what it meant to be a teen in this era, so I guess we may not get away from his movies. I mean, "Footloose" wasn't one of his, so that was good, but that's wild. It's basically just a John Hughes shit episode. Fuck you, John Hughes.Lexi  28:37But, no. I've got some redeeming ones.Ben  28:40And your brother, Ron. From John Hughes? I don't agree.Lexi  28:44I've got one. I got a couple that I'm gonna fight for, saying they're good.Ben  28:47What? Okay, you're gonna have to try real hard to make me like john Hughes in any capacity. "Weird Science", let's just get the premise out of the way. These two losers decide that they're going to robo-code their-- I'm just gonna use fake science words 'cause that's what they do in this movie-- they're gonna robo-code their digi-ideal woman and build her to be perfect and subservient to them. The whole premise is fucked up and weird and gross, and then, through the magic of--Lexi  29:11Yeah, the magic of science.Ben  29:12--science, I don't know, this woman comes true. She's there. Suddenly, they built her, and they can do anything they want with their new robo-girl or whatever. [Lexi sighs] Lexi  29:24And... [groans].Ben  29:25The only thing that's redeeming is a nice title song written by Oingo Boingo, the new-wave band from the '80s.Lexi  29:32Ah, Oingo Boingo. Yep. I know that it was this whole, you know, the dorks or the geeks strike back where like Revenge of the Nerds and that was also another popular problematic movie of the era, of just, like, dorks who aren't... You know, it's basically like  these, the nice guys, the incels.Ben  29:52Incels.Lexi  29:53They can't get-- no girls will pay attention to them 'cause they're not popular jocks. Wah, wah, wah. So what we're gonna do--Ben  29:59No, this is great. I like this line we're riding. I like this. This is, we are what's-his-face from It's Always Sunny.Lexi  30:07Dennis?Ben  30:08No. Not Dennis. We're not Dennis. Nobody's Dennis. Dennis is a sociopath. Lexi  30:11I was gonna say.Ben  30:12Ferris Bueller is Dennis. Lexi  30:13He's a serial killer. Ben  30:15Well, that's--Lexi  30:16Mac?Ben  30:16No, not Mac. Goddamn. Charlie.Lexi  30:18Charlie?Ben  30:19We're Charlie at the wall with the line, and we have just gone from John Hughes movies to the nice-guy phenomenon, and then straight on past that to the incel, the current incel disgusting thing that we have going on. Lexi  30:35Well, all of like...Ben  30:36It's all Ron and John Hughes' fault.Lexi  30:39Anthony Michael Hall basically played an incel [chuckling] for, like, his entire teenage youth--Ben  30:46God.Lexi  30:46--of the best friend who's just waiting around. "When's it gonna be his turn, gosh darn it?" because that's what it takes.Ben  30:52Yeah, and if I put in enough, you know, "nice coins" into the Woman Gashapon I will get the sex prize in the little ball. Lexi  31:00Exactly. Ben  31:01Yeah, I mean, fuck, as a white male, this is the kind of shit that I was taught, too. Like, I had some very strong, and I mean that as in of character, women, who... I mean, I could have been a very shitty person if I didn't have people that were better than me that helped me learn to be better. That should have been the responsibility but, like, "Thanks for being in my life to help me not end up like these fuckers." 'Cause I didn't get that from, like, my upbringing and, like, watching this kind of bullshit, or from, like, my religious upbringing. You definitely were taught that, like, the idea was that you put those wonderful little friendship points in, and eventually, you're gonna get what you want back out of it, which is not a relationship with another human being. It's vagina. Lexi  31:46Yeah, they just, the pure physical nature of it. But then, if we can move on to Pretty In Pink, which I think Ducky is the worst character for that, is the most blatant character for that. I mean, like, he's--Ben  32:01Oh, yeah. He's nice guy.Lexi  32:02[groans] He is so horrible, such a, like, you know, kickin' rocks and, "Aw, gee, when's it gonna be my time? Nobody loves you like I love you," like, gaslighting Molly Ringwald's character.Ben  32:15Unrequited love sort of thing is supposed to be, like, romantic, as opposed to creepy.Lexi  32:20Well, and speaking of creepy, then James Spader's creep-ass character is even worse because he's the king gaslighter of pretending to absolutely hate Molly Ringwald's character, Andie, but then, secretly is like trying to get with her and like, "Yeah, there it is. There's the douchebag," and I did know guys like that in high school that would pretend, "Oh, we don't talk when we're at school, but then I'll message you on MSN later tonight."Ben  32:48Yeah, I mean, this this is where I get ranty because this leads me into one of my hot topics and also not a sponsor of the show. [Lexi laughs] Wish they were. Do they still exist?Lexi  33:01Yeah, they do. There's one at Market Mall.Ben  33:04Yeah, you can get, like, records from them, and film. They're the only place that sell record players and film anymore. Lexi  33:09[laughing] Yep. Ben  33:10But this is one of, like, things that gets me kind of passionate is that, when this kind of subject comes up, men get mad at people pointing it out, white males specifically get mad at people pointing out that, like, this was sort of the culture that we were steeped in, what we were built to be like. I feel like men should be super fucking angry that this is what society tried to turn us into, did turn us into. Like, but instead, we double down on this shit. We get mad. We try to defend it. We try to defend that like "culture", but like, we should be fucking pissed all the time about what society, what our society, patriarchal and you know, colonial as it is, like, what it tried, and tries, and continues to try to turn white men into. Like, but dudes just don't get pissed at that. For some reason, they just can't. They can't find that, and it makes me mad on a daily basis. I see myself as, sort of like, this robot that was built by, you know, these fucking people to do this thing, and it makes me mad every day that I almost didn't have a fair shot at being like a normal-ish human being that could treat people with empathy and kindness because of this kind of media, of this kind of culture, this pervasiveness, and yeah, fuck it. It just gets me that other dudes, you know, aren't just constantly pissed off about this.Lexi  34:27Well, when you talk about, like, systemic racism, and lots of people are like, "There's no such thing ," which is bullshit--Ben  34:32Yes. [along with dancehall airhorn] B-b-b-bullshit. Sorry. I hadn't gotten one of those in in a few episodes.Lexi  34:36That's all good. We've gotta have one of those per episode. I feel like these, like, not necessarily these ones but movies like these, this is a part of it, of just like keeping everybody in their place, and telling everybody what role. "You sit on that chair over there. You wear that type of T-shirt." Like, this is-- and even like looking at the '90s movies, it's just as bad because now we have like--Ben  34:59Oh no. Yeah, definitely.Lexi  35:00It's just as bad, and even now, I was thinking like, "What are the current teen movies?" They're not that different, really.Ben  35:08I don't really know. Well, no, 'cause I guess it's still the same machine, and the same systemic system. [laughs] The same systemic system that's still turning this shit out. It hasn't-- like, the decision makers, the money and stuff, are all of a certain, I don't know, persuasion, ilk, build, and so that hasn't changed, so why would the content change? You know, there might be veneers put on things from people at certain parts of the process, but the assembly line is still largely the same and has the same intent. The blueprints haven't changed.Lexi  35:41You know--Ben  35:42Have I mixed my metaphor enough?Lexi  35:45You got a little... They're good. Ben  35:46Yeah. Lexi  35:47Like, just so thinking of the other podcast, "Art Intervention", there was one episode where I found out a lot of research about why the art industry, especially, like, art galleries, and museums, are so white, and one article I found was talking about, they're super white because those types of institutions, typically, they don't have a lot of government support. They don't have any, like, you know, public money coming in that's really keeping the lights on, so you really have to rely on the private sector for donations, and, unfortunately, a lot of the wealthy patrons for a lot of these big, big institutions are, largely, white patrons, and they don't wanna feel uncomfortable, and they don't wanna feel like--Ben  36:38No. It always comes with strings.Lexi  36:40It's always coming with strings, and so they don't want you to be bringing in an artist who is calling out the white patriarchy of the art society. They want someone who's gonna like, you know, ruffle a little feathers, but not be too, you know, radical, and so it's creating this industry that is perpetually keeping people in their place and keeping the dialogue moving along, and I think, like, some institutions are getting a little bit better, but it is a huge problem in the arts, and a lot of times people are like, "Oh, but the arts are... You know there's so many black actors that are very famous," and there's'--Ben  37:19What does that even mean? Lexi  37:21Exactly. Like, it's still an industry and it still has a lot of problems, and I think we're just scratching the surface on the whole like #MeToo" Harvey Weinstein thing, and even the fact that, like, #MeToo was appropriated from a black woman who had been talking about it for years, and all it took was, like, a couple white actresses to be like, "Yeah, I've had similar experiences," and pfff, it blows up. Ben  37:44Yeah. What was that shitty joke, where, like, the white dude is like, "Oh, if I was in charge of equality, you know, we wouldn't need feminism anymore," or something. Or like, "If I was in charge of feminism, we'd all have equality by now," something like that.Lexi  38:03That's a great joke.Ben  38:04The idea is that the joke is in the idea of this guy saying that he could fix a problem that he is the creator of, or part of the system. [Lexi laughs] There's the joke. You're supposed to laugh at the premise of the guy.Lexi  38:17It's so sad, though. Like, "Yeah. There it is."Ben  38:21[Lexi laughs] Speaking of sociopathic white males, let's hit Ferris Bueller. [along with dancehall airhorn] B-B-B-Bueller. Lexi  38:28[along with Yello's song, "Oh Yeah"] Oh, yeah. Bom-bom. Chik-a-chik-a!Ben  38:31I mean... [along with Yello's song, "Oh Yeah"] Oh yeah. Bom-bom. So that basically--Lexi  38:36[along with Yello's song, "Oh Yeah"] Bom. Oh.Ben  38:38That's enough right there. Really, like Ferris Bueller is a sociopath. He manipulates everyone. He can't empathize with other people's feelings. He manipulates his friends into doing things because he thinks it's for their own good. Like, he gets to decide what's best for Cameron. He gets to decide how Cameron deals with his emotionally-abusive parents or like, "Oh, steal the car." Eugh, but, like, Ferris Bueller is just a smug piece of shit, and, you know, Matthew Broderick, I like you enough, but you're much better in Godzilla 2000. [Yello song "Oh Yeah" continues]Lexi  39:06I think the real hero of that movie is Jennifer Grey's character, Jeanie Bueller. Jeanie is the true-- 'cause she's the only one that sees him other than Ed Rooney, Jeffrey Jones. She's the only one that sees him for his bullshit, but she sees it, more or less, like a sister just wanting to rub her brother's face and like, "You're not all that. How about that, kid?" Like, it's more she just wants to prove him wrong, not ruin his life, like Ed Rooney, but she's trying so hard the entire movie to get people to, like, see through his bullshit, and I always felt really bad for her because I was like, "Yeah, he shouldn't be doing all those things." [Yello song "Oh Yeah" continues]Ben  39:49Yeah, he's a terrible character. Yeah, that movie. You know, you've got Ben Stein in there as well, and he hasn't held out well. He's aged poorly, as far as he--Lexi  39:51Has he?Ben  39:52His movies are pretty, pretty shitty. He's a pretty smug asshole most of the time and very-- [Lexi sighs]Lexi  40:11Well, I mean, same with Jeffrey Jones, hey? [Yello song "Oh Yeah" continues]Ben  40:14Oh yes, I know what happened to him. We don't need to discuss that. That's just such a--Lexi  40:17 Yeah, that's--Ben  40:18A disgusting human being, so we're better off--Lexi  40:20There's a couple, like, Charlie Sheen, like that's--Ben  40:23Who, Charlie Sheen was in that?Lexi  40:25Yeah, he's the creepy dude that's hitting on Jeanie in the police station when he's like, "Why do you care so much about what your brother does?"Ben  40:32Oh man, now I remember that.Lexi  40:33He's the one that kind of like helps her, right?Ben  40:35Yeah, yeah. [Yello song "Oh Yeah" continues]Lexi  40:40Controversy comes from us all, Ben.Ben  40:41"Just be more like Charlie Sheen," is a thing that nobody should say. [laughs]Lexi  40:44No. Be more like Jennifer Grey is what I think.Ben  40:49Like, the actor or the character?Lexi  40:53Eh, the character in this one.Ben  40:53I don't know anything about the actor.Lexi  40:56Neither do I. I hope that she's not... I hope that no one is, like, actually.Ben  41:01Do we have anything that can bring us back? Like, we need some redeemable teen movies. I had a little bit of being like Footloose could be fun still. Are there ones we can watch? I've got one more that I sort of like.Lexi  41:11Oh, I've got one I love. Ben  41:12I'll do mine. You're more passionate. I'll do mine first. It's called... [laughing] Oh, god now I'm blanking on the name. Lexi  41:20Uh-oh. [laughs]Ben  41:21It's with Christian Slater, and he is a, like, pirate radio host. Pump Up the Volume. Lexi  41:28Okay.Ben  41:28So, there's some stuff that doesn't do it for me, which is sort of that, like, white suburban kid ennui that you see in, like, the '90s. It's technically a 1990 movie, but it was produced... That's when it was released, so it was produced in the '80s. So it's got a lot of that, sort of like, white teen ennui that we see in the '90s a lot with, like, the navel gazing and, like, "Let's just, you know, not worry about anything except our white privilege problems." So there's a little bit of that, but there's also a lot of like, sort of challenging the way that kids' problems are sort of downplayed by adults, or like, they're tried to be brushed aside when, like, you know, kids are actually suffering with problems. One of the things is a student kills himself and, like, that's sort of an impetus for the main characters to sort of go on and speak out about what's happening and tell the other students not to be quiet and to, like, live their, like... "Talk hard," is his line in the movie. Talk hard and, like, say the things that are a problem for you, and not hold them back, so I feel like I could rewatch that one again. I feel like it probably is watchable. He gets arrested at the end for his pirate radio, which is just such a great idea, a pirate radio, broadcasting illegally on the FM channel. Fuck, can you do that? I wanna broadcast illegally on an FM channel.Lexi  42:52I think it is something that's elite. Like, you have to be allowed to do it.Ben  42:56Yeah, I mean, I just don't even know anybody who'd be interested. Why do that when you can make a podcast? [both laugh] Yeah, I guess, you know, somebody would still have to tune to your pirate radio frequency, so... [chuckles]Lexi  43:11They'd find you.Ben  43:12Yeah. So the villain of the movie or whatever, is like the FCC comes to find Christian Slater's character and shut down his pirate radio.Lexi  43:21The FCC won't let him be.Ben  43:23Yeah, the FCC won't let him be. [laughs] Lexi  43:26Thank you. Thank you for that.Ben  43:27You're welcome. Thank you. I don't know what you're thinking me. You did it. That's great.Lexi  43:31I always like a good laugh, Ben. You know? Ben  43:33Yeah. I think yeah, give Pump Up the Volume a watch if you haven't. I haven't watched it in a while. I should re-watch it, but let us know if I'm wrong about that, and if it's a total trash fire, as well.Lexi  43:44I'm going to end this with a bang, Ben, because I'm gonna explain to you the greatest coming-of-age movie of the John Hughes-era is Uncle Buck.Ben  43:48Okay, so here's my thing with Uncle Buck. Is it a teen movie, though? Lexi  43:58Yes.Ben  43:59You think?Lexi  44:00I think so. I watched it all-- I watched it with my mom, and then I watched it with my friends when I was, like, 15, and I've watched it many times since because, I don't know. It was about, like, to me, it was about connecting with an adult in your life.Ben  44:16That's interesting. I appreciate that take. I guess I just find, like, the centering of John Candy as the main role in that, sort of, takes it away from being a teen movie for me.Lexi  44:24But that's why I think it's key because teenagers are so stuck in their own bubble, that it's hard to see your angst when you're living in it, and I think that was the reason my mom made me watch it.Ben  44:35Oh, interesting. So you were saying, like, the point-of-view character being the adult but having the show and the content geared at a teen gives you some outside of your own situation-ness, some self-awareness.Lexi  44:47Yeah.Lexi  44:48'Cause, see, like his... Oh, gosh, the... bup, bup, bup... Tia, so Tia is 15 and she's the oldest of the three kids and she's like, if you've never seen the movie, she's a cow. Like, the entire movie, she's just being an asshole for no purpose.Ben  44:48Interesting.Ben  45:06No, I've seen it a number of times.Lexi  45:09I watch it every Christmas. That is my Home Alone. Ben  45:11It's been a while, though.Lexi  45:13And it's just because she's so brutal, and then John Candy's character comes in and, you know, she's got a couple of lines that she says that are just horrible, so, so mean and callous, and then, she treats her family like garbage. She winds up shacking up with a dude who's trying to take advantage of her, and I think that this is really key, and a lot of people should watch it that if you are a 15, 16, 17 year old, and you are dating someone who is older than you, it is not an equal relationship. I'm sorry. It just isn't. And that's something that, like, when I was a teenager, I was like, "I can take care of myself," and so many times, like, yeah, to a point and then you pass a line, and then it gets real tricky, and what I like about that is, even though she treated people poorly, like, John Candy came to her rescue and supported her, and helped her to take her power back from this douchebag who tried to hurt her.Ben  46:12Right. So, in a typical John Hughes movie, we'd see her get a come-uppance of some sort of degradation or sexual assault as, sort of, the character arc. Like, "Oh, that'll teach you to be a b-word, though. You got what was coming to you. Haha." But that doesn't happen in this film. Interesting.Lexi  46:29Well, it kinda... Like, it almost does. Like, her boyfriend tries to pressure her into having sex. She's not ready so she leaves the party, and he does, like, make fun of her, and then, John Candy comes and finds her walking away from the party and, you know, she's embarrassed and whatever, and then he basically kidnaps the boyfriend in the back of the car, and then they hit golf balls at him to really, like... [laughs]Ben  46:53Sounds good to me. I'm fine with that.Lexi  46:56I don't know. Like, it's still you're right. Like, she's still like, there's that, like, "Haha, you were almost, like, you know, taken advantage of."Ben  47:02"That will show you."Lexi  47:02"That's what you get for being a little bag," but I just feel like, of those movies, this is probably the one that has, like, aged the best because even John Candy's character is so flawed. Ben  47:15Yeah, yeah.Lexi  47:16And it shows, like, all these redeeming qualities about him.Ben  47:18Yeah. I mean, that sounds like a good synopsis to me. I'd rewatch that. I'll give it a shot. And you all should give that a shot too, see what you think, see if there's some aspects of that film that we forgot that maybe cause it to bump off a little bit, although it sounds like Lexi watches it pretty regularly, so she knows what's up.Lexi  47:38I'm gonna be really sad if someone out there is like, "But, did you forget about the scene?" Because probably.Ben  47:43Maybe, but you know, that's just an opportunity. Yeah, this is an opportunity to appreciate what happened there, and, you know, that doesn't mean you have to stop watching Uncle Buck. It just means we have to somehow create a 15-minute episode addendum to this that people are forced to listen to that, "Okay, so there's this part in the movie and we have to talk about it where things go blah blah, blah." Yeah, I have to imagine that we'll end up doing a lot of retraction or correction episodes. Maybe that should be just a fun off-week thing we do. We do, you know, corrections and just 15-minute episodes every other week when we're not on our regular schedule. "So here's some shit we got wrong last week," and we just list it.Lexi  48:27Yeah. Just, "Sorry about this. Sorry about the following things."Ben  48:30"Said this. Didn't mean to."Lexi  48:32Ben, we haven't done Who's That Pokémon? yet.Ben  48:35Oh, fuck. Let's do Who's That  Pokémon? here. I think we've got another little ways to go. We should do a wrap up, but let's do a Who's That  Pokémon? Is it your turn again to come up with the Pokémon?Lexi  48:46Well, I've done many. I'm happy to keep explaining wet bags of sand to you, but do you wanna take a crack at Who's That  Pokémon?Ben  48:52I didn't come up with one, so it'll be on the fly. Yeah.Lexi  48:54Oh, do it.Ben  48:54I'll do it unless you have one prepared. Lexi  48:56No, no, no. Ben  48:57Okay. Okay, [along with "Who's That Pokémon" theme music] Who's that Pokémon? and I will describe now the Pokémon with which you need to guess. Lexi  49:06Excellent. Ben  49:07It's sort of like a pitcher.Lexi  49:09Okay.Ben  49:11Imagine an upside-down... No, right-way-up, like a pitcher as in, like, a vase. Not a--Lexi  49:18Okay, like, like a pitcher of lemonade. Ben  49:20Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then there's, like, some sort of leaves coming off, leaf-shaped protrusions, one on each side of this pitcher.Lexi  49:30Oh, my god.Ben  49:30And then there's also some sort of circular balls atop the pitcher.Lexi  49:35Are you explaining an actual Pokémon to me or is this like a...?Ben  49:38Yeah, yeah.Lexi  49:39It's an actual Pokémon! Oh, I thought we were being cheeky here and--Ben  49:43No. It's time for us to break out our--Lexi  49:45Anthony Michael Hall. [Ben laughs]Ben  49:47Oh shit. That's not bad. Lexi  49:48Oh, I gotta remember.Ben  49:49I'll change it. It's no longer Victreebel. It's Anthony Michael Hall. You got it. [Lexi laughs] [along with "Who's That Pokémon" theme music] Who's that Pokémon? [Lexi laughs]Lexi  49:59It's Anthony Michael Hall. Ben  50:00I'm gonna Google you a picture. [scratching record, DJ-style]Lexi  50:03Oh, Victreebel. Ben  50:04Yes. It was a real Pokémon.Lexi  50:05Damn it.Ben  50:06I think if I ever do them, they'll probably be real Pokémon.Lexi  50:09We still have to do a Pokémon episode.Ben  50:11It'd be interesting to talk to Mr. Hall and ask him how he feels about his part in the rise of incels.Lexi  50:18I'm sure he probably doesn't see it that way. [laughs]Ben  50:21I don't think many people do, as a child actor. I'm sure there's a lot more going on. I am being glib for the sake of humor.Lexi  50:27Hey, Ben, he had a redeeming role in Edward Scissorhands, where he dies.Ben  50:31He had a lot of good TV roles.Lexi  50:34Yeah, he has. He's had a very big career.Ben  50:37Mm-hmm. This is now the Anthony Michael Hall podcast, where we just talk about--Lexi  50:42Dissect him.Ben  50:43--the different works of Anthony Mic-- Michael Hall. I can't say his name anymore. It's lost all meaning.Lexi  50:50AMH.Ben  50:51AMH. He's been active as an actor since 1977. Is that something you knew? Lexi  50:56Wow. No, That's, that's...Ben  50:58He's 53 years old. He was born in 1968, April 14th, in West Roxbury, Massachusetts. Can we stop and talk about Massachusetts for a second? And how difficult a fucking place that is to say?Lexi  51:10Yes. I have such a hard time with it, I'd rather just be like, "That place," or write it down and point to it because I feel like I can't say it appropriately.Ben  51:17Yeah, and I'm not gonna make fun of the name 'cause I don't know its origins, etymology or anything, and I don't want to step on something, but, like, just saying, "Mass-a-chu-setts", like I've always said, "Massachusiss", or whatever, as a kid. I've always said it wrong, and then I was in New York, and I said, "Massachusiss", and somebody said, "What the fuck is wrong with you?"Lexi  51:35"Mass-a-chu--"Ben  51:35"Mass-a-chu-setts". Lexi  51:37"Mass-a-chu-setts". Ben  51:38Okay, yeah. It sounds wrong. Just say it-- okay, everybody at home listening, say "Mass-a-chu-setts"  about five times, maybe 10 times in a row, and see if you still like yourself.Lexi  51:49That's a tough homework assignment. [chuckles]Ben  51:52Yeah, enjoy. What else do we need to know about M-- Michael Anthony Hall? That's it. I'm good. Let's move on. [along with "Who's That Pokémon" theme music] Who's that Pokémon? We're back. We're back into the regular show, no longer the--Lexi  52:07AMH.Ben  52:08Anthony Michael Hall hour, the AMH hour. Is there anything else we should hit here on the way out? Lexi  52:15I mean--Ben  52:15Like, he produced or something Beethoven, so that's interesting.Lexi  52:18He also did Home Alone, which is a beloved movie.Ben  52:22Produced, yeah. He didn't--Lexi  52:23Oh, I thought... Okay.Ben  52:24But still.Lexi  52:25That's good to know.Ben  52:25He produced Miracle on 34th Street, which, you know, I've always enjoyed.Lexi  52:29He did Mall Rats, which again, like, is a very big movie [Ben groans] that I think a lot of people are like, "That's a cultural icon," but, like, it's also a very, like...Ben  52:39It is. Yeah, it's not a good flick. It does not hold up, and it is one of those ones that, like, yeah, as a rite of passage as a 14 year old, at least around our neck of the woods, you definitely watched, and thought was the greatest thing that ever happened. "Oh, shit pretzels." [Lexi groans] "Ha, ha, ha, ha. In the back of a Volkswagen." Lexi  52:59It's just...Ben  53:00Yeah.Lexi  53:00I feel like it's a really weird mix of, like, heartwarming children's movies and then, like, really problematic teen raunchy comedies.Ben  53:10Yeah.Lexi  53:10Like, well, it's an interesting mix you got there, pal. Ben  53:13Yeah. It's a wild time at Ridgemont High, which is movie I would have-- we should have talked about, but we didn't get to. That's fine, and I don't really remember enough about it except one of the Penn is in it. I think it's Sean Penn who was problematic, as well.Lexi  53:28Yeah. It's Sean Penn. Yeah.Ben  53:30Yeah, yeah.Lexi  53:31Oof. There's... We could... There's a lot of other very problematic teen movies. I mean, like, we've got the whole '90s to stare down. Ben  53:40Yeah.Lexi  53:41She's All That.Ben  53:42I mean, you know, those are movies that I definitely... Can't Hardly Wait. Lexi  53:46[groaning] Oh, I used to love that movie. Ben  53:50Of course you did. We all thought it was great. Lexi  53:51And I watched it recently. Oh, god.Ben  53:54No, I know. There's not a single aspect of that movie that I think holds up.Lexi  53:58Oh, you mean Seth Green's character isn't a redeeming figure throughout history?Ben  54:03It is an absolute travesty that that was allowed to become a thing. Lexi  54:08[whispers] Oh, my gosh.Ben  54:09That... yeah. The racism in that character alone in that, like, sort of characterization that we saw a lot of in the '90s and early 2000s is just wild. Lexi  54:19[softly] I know.Ben  54:19Just wild that that stuff had no critical second thought. Like, I know, we talk about, like, history and culture as these eras, and, like, we didn't have this sort of cultural awareness of these things at the time and, like, it's true, but also like, "So fucking what?" Like, that doesn't--Lexi  54:36Doesn't make it okay.Ben  54:37I just can't see that as an excuse. Yeah. Can't see it as an excuse.Lexi  54:43"Can't Hardly Use it As An Excuse?Ben  54:45[laughs] Yeah, Can't Hardly Wait to use it as an excuse. Like, I just can't use that as a way to be like, "Ah, I can still watch this film and not think of it critically," which I guess nobody's really asking anyone to do. Lexi  54:55But then it, like--Ben  54:56Problematic media is a whole other topic.Lexi  54:58It is, because it does beg the question of, "Do we look at the art versus the artist?" because then, like, we're leading into that era, and even, like, there's a little controversy this week with the old Margaret Atwood and her comments. Ben  55:11Oh, God. Lexi  55:13And I'm not gonna say that "I told you so, world," but I did say that Margaret Atwood isn't a great... I mean...Ben  55:20Well, I mean, she started to swing problematic for a while now. But like, this is also the advent of, sort of like, internet as well, is like, we did not have the information earlier on to know her thoughts on subjects that, you know, were outside of what she'd write about in her books, and maybe more intelligent people than myself picked up more of, like, her problems. I read her books, the ones that I enjoyed, which were like the MaddAddam trilogy, when I was in my early 20s. I don't consider that I was even like a proper adult human with critical thought until I was 25, so like, I still miss stuff all the time, and yeah, that's interesting. Margaret Atwood though. Way to hold my beer, JK Rowling. Jesus.Lexi  56:03Yeah, I did make a couple jokes of like, "Oh, she's really J.K.-ing herself this week." Like, just, if anyone has ever... Like, here's my piece of advice. Just stop. Just don't. Just don't. Like, and, a lot of times, don't weigh in. This is not a place for, "Oh, you know what I think about this?" Nothing. You think nothing about it. Shut up.Ben  56:23Oh, no, trust me that's a lesson I learned as a white dude on the internet that's like, more or less cishet, like, you know, maybe I don't need to offer an opinion on this. There's gonna be a lot of other takes, and I could probably do the most for myself by just reading how this goes out, and if I have questions about things, do some fucking Googling and try to understand these points that I'm having trouble with, and...Lexi  56:48Well, this has been a depressing and sad episode about our failed teenage years of just disappointing racism and sexism. [laughs]Ben  56:58Yeah. Well, you know, and again, this goes back to my really good analogy about, like, conveyor belts and machines or whatever. Like, we haven't fixed the problems with the blueprints and the machinery that's making this shit, so why would we expect it to be different? A different outcome just because, now we're aware that, you know, the shit shouldn't be happening, but apparently, we haven't taken the right action yet to correct where that's coming from, and so that stuff still comes.Lexi  57:29Well, maybe in another couple of decades we'll look at it a little closer. Ben  57:33We'll see. We'll see.Lexi  57:34The rom coms of the future are gonna be more uplifting and diverse and positive.Ben  57:38Okay, well, rom coms are a whole 'nother thing we need to get into 'cause Nora Ephron.Lexi  57:42Teenage.Ben  57:44Nora Ephron, I'm coming for you.Lexi  57:46I don't even wanna talk about rom coms because I don't think that I could say anything other than, "Bleuch."Ben  57:51We broached the subject. I mean, we kind of came into the teen movies thing with the intention of having some positivity to balance it out, [Lexi laughs] but it's hard when you have about 15 to 20 years, dominated by one figure, who has a way of looking at the world that's pretty shitty, and made all the, like, pop culture in that time.Lexi  58:10This is why you need a diverse group of people making content so that you have a wider array of things to look at to form your identity, because, when you're growing up, and the only teen flicks that are out the

After discussing leech-themed cocktails (1:30) and another round of Leech Anatomy 101 (4:07), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Pan's Labyrinth's leechiest themes (11:28), scenes (22:00), and characters (28:10). To get some relief, the guys head into their first Leech on a Beach segment (35:17). They conclude by considering the film's medicinal qualities (38:49) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film's leechiness (44:10).We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.comPublic email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.comSocial Media:@leechpodcast on Twittertheleechpodcast on InstagramExternal Links:"Leeches" Cocktail: https://www.ayearofcocktails.com/2012/05/leeches.htmlCredits:Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron JonesEditing by Evan CateGraphic design by Banks ClarkOriginal music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and MusicProduction help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind ProductionsEquipment help from Topher ThomasTranscript:Evan 00:05Hello everyone, welcome back to the Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. I'm your host, Evan Cate. And I'm joined by two leechy gentlemen, Aaron Jones and BanksClark.00:16Hey guys. 00:18How's it going?Evan 00:21The Leech Podcast has a show about movies that suck the life out of you. They also stick with you. They may even be good for you. Like a leech. If you're wondering what this means, think of a movie that you saw that you knew was amazing. And it also took so much out of you that you thought I don't think I can watch this movie ever again. And somehow, some way. Later on, you watch the movie again. And it is the best thing you've ever seen. That is a leech movie. Some of our listeners are wondering, how did y'all discover leech movies? Well, the three of us discovered our shared love of leech films. When we used to teach together at a school. We found quickly that the three of us are bleeding hearts, who love films. And we all know that blood attracts leeches. So we used to teach together, but now we leech together.Banks 01:27That's a good one.Evan 01:29Thank you. Thank you, I wrote that myself. We would love for others to join us in this leechy endeavor. So if you're interested in talking to us sharing ideas, please hit us up @LeechPodcast on Twitter, and theLeechPodcast on Instagram. We've already heard from some listeners who got some great ideas. Last week we asked about leech cocktails, what would be great drinks that have a leech theme and very grateful for the listeners who shared a cocktail called leeches. Here's the recipe guys. I'd love to get your feedback on what you think about this cocktail. So the recipe for leeches: -three shots lemonade-half shot vodka-half shot peach schnapps-a quarter shot of Canadian whiskey. Preferably black velvetOkay, guys, what do you think?Banks 02:20A bit sweet for my taste. I don't know. Do I do leeches like high blood sugar? That's my question.Aaron 02:28Hey, I was thinking the appropriate lee ch cocktail might be a little stankier--like a little bit like a bleeding armpit.Banks 02:44How does one make a bleeding armpit, Aaron?Aaron 02:42I'm waiting for the listeners to figure it out.Evan 02:45It's quite the challenge that Aaron has posed to our listeners. And I do think that that was a worthy effort, but we will take more suggestions on the leech cocktail. I believe Banks has a concoction in mind. They don't want to Oh, sorry. Was that too soon to spoil that?Banks 03:00Hey, this is what I'll say..beet juice is included. So that's all I'm gonna say at this point.Aaron 03:07 Mmmmm, snaps and clapsBanks 03:09I heard the pandemic ends. You know, we will get together and we will fine tune what this is we want to hear from you guys about what your ideas are. We'll try them all.Evan 03:21Okay, nothing beats a leech cocktail. Probably a great segue into something new this week, we're gonna have a new segment called “leech on a beach.” This is a segment dedicated to fun or humorous parts of the movies because we realize many of these movies are very serious and very grueling. And sometimes some levity is needed. Beyond our puns, we thought we wanted to really highlight leechy fun parts of movies. So stay tuned.Aaron 03:50Yeah, a little vacation, little vacation.Evan 03:52You can sip on your leech cocktailAaron 04:00for the leech on the beach segment. Evan 4:01 All right, so without further ado, Aaron, please teach us about some leeches with “leech anatomy 101”Aaron 04:08Leech Anatomy 101. This week and I'd like to talk to us about leeches teeth. leeches teeth. Couple years ago, 2019 they discovered a new leech. I'm looking at the News & Observer, Smithsonian researchers who discovered a new leech that had a three jaws each containing 56 to 59 teet--56 to 59--this is a leech that bites and bleeds humans. And so intriguing to me. You look imagine this you're looking like at a straw--this is like the leeches mouth--like three rows of teeth going down into like a little cave. Oh my goodness! This is the thing that's sucking on you! And as I was reading this article, the researcher said the way they discovered this leech was simply by walking into a swamp, just south of DC and Maryland. Walking into the swamp in shorts and flip flops, and seeing what would come up when they walked out? By golly, this little critter with 56 to 59 teeth per each three rows came up attached, greenish brown with some little orange speckles. And that's a leech with some teeth.Evan 05:26Wow. Thank you for that.Banks 05:28Thank you, question mark?05:48Those were some leech teeth. Wow. Okay.05:33teach us about leech-us.05:36So let's, let's all keep this in mind as we dive into this episode of the Leech Podcast. Our movie today, of course, is Pan's Labyrinth, a wonderful film directed by Guillermo Del Toro. And to give us a synopsis of this film, Banks, take it away.05:55Happy to! Obviously about to give a synopsis. So spoiler alert! If you haven't seen the movie, this would be a good time to pause it, go watch it, come back, the recording will still be here. It'll be well worth your time. But find the right time for this movie, that's for sure. It's not, not the one that you want to have to lighten the mood. But it's a wonderful film. Another quick thing is just a quick trigger warning. This is a film that has some pretty serious, just very heavy themes, especially around childbirth, but also it has some really nasty gore scene. Nothing absurd. This isn't a slasher film by any means. But you know, there are some things involving a razor blade that is, that'll stick with you a little bit like a leech. So just wanted to cover that, my guess is we might be talking about it. So just wanted to make sure those are out of the way. And make sure that y'all know about that before we listen to that. So this is a film that bridges between just some really brutal realities of the Spanish Civil War that really holds no punches at all. And then is also paired with some just wonderful wimzie of fantasy throughout. And so it's a film that goes back and forth. And the movie just sort of layers these in, almost like a very strange leechy layered cake of realism and fantasy. One after the other. The lead character is a little girl named Ophelia. And Ophelia is the daughter of Carmen, who is sort of pregnant with her younger brother. And the younger brother's father is named Vidal who is a captain of sort of the like, what is the faction called? I think that they're called the...Aaron 07:58Falangism? Yeah.Banks 08:00Is it the Falangist movement?Evan 08:01Yeah. So it's like fascist Spain. Right. Banks 08:02Yeah, you know, a very authoritarian regime. And so we're sort of thrown into the film and when they're sort of driving out to go meet the captain. And as they arrive Ophelia finds a labyrinth. And after doing that we're sort of then introduced from into this sort of fantasy realm where she meets a fawn, who then gives her a series of trials where she has to, you know, get a key from a toad and then she has to go and you know, get a dagger from a pale man at a feast, and then finally has to then take her younger brother into the labyrinth. And while all this is happening, at the same time, we have, you know, the mother struggling with sickness and childbirth and having traveled too soon. We're seeing the rebels battle in the Spanish Civil War into this gruesome detail, as hostages are detained and tortured. And it sort of escalates further and further as Ophelia progresses more and more in these different trials. And it's both happening as if these two stories are intertwined, but also, the contrast between the fantasy and the reality is incredibly stark, and the movie does a masterful job of balancing these two motifs, and playing them off of one another. And then finally at the end, the last trial Ophelia must take her younger brother into the labyrinth, where she then refuses to spill his her brother's blood. But then she is followed by Vidal, by her at this point stepfather, who then shoots her. And Ophelia dies in the final scene, because she refused to spill the blood of her innocent brother. And as she dies, we also get this sort of fantastic…. We're sort of swept up and taken to her then becoming a princess, the princess Moana of the underworld in a very positive sense. And then she is shown to be like, these have been what all the trials have been building towards, both in reality and out of reality, both at the same time. And so that's how this movie ends. It is an incredibly difficult movie, but also an incredibly powerful one. That I don't know about you guys, but I was left exhausted at the end of it.Evan 10:25Indeed, thank you. Thanks. So we're gonna move into our categories. Our first one is leechy themes. So Aaron, what was the theme? That was Leechy for you in this movie?Aaron 10:37I want him to talk about the theme of fatherhood in the film. I think I told you both that I watched this film for the first time many years ago. And actually before I was myself a father, and I had one reaction to it, then I think, I thought, you know, I, first of all, I never want to watch this movie again. And here I am having watched it a second time with you all. So it's stuck with me though it's stuck with me. But I have to say that being a father now my daughter is seven years old, beloved to me, and watching this movie about a young girl just a couple years older than my daughter go through a lot of suffering I... and without a father in her life to protect her ….or without it just she's an incredible danger so many times, and I think I had this experience of helplessness. As a father watching the film, like there's nothing I can do to help her protect this girl. And I mean, she's perfectly capable a lot of times of protecting herself. But I was intrigued by the ways in which like her in the absence of her father, becomes crucial to the film. And also the way in which fatherhood becomes one of the fantasy elements of the film. What do I mean? What do I mean? I was intrigued by the moment early in the film before Ophelia has met Vidal, who will become her who's her stepfather figure. Her mother says, “I want you to call him your father.” And Ophelia resists this notion so many times throughout the movie when Mercedes says, Oh, you know, your father wants you to call him. “He's not my father. He's not, he's not my father,” she resisted so heavily. And her mother says to her, “it's just a word. Say it. It's just a word.” “Pretend” is what her mother is saying. And that's one fantasy. She won't pretend like there's this deep allegiance to this missing father. And the last thing I'll say, is that Vidal also seems to have this obsession with fatherhood, he desperately wants to be a father--but only to a son. To the point that he...he almost seems cold and lifeless, totally uncaring, unfeeling when his wife dies, so long as the sun is preserved. And we know that's part of his character the whole time that he he only cares about the coming of the Son and his own becoming a father. And I'm intrigued both by, I'll be brief here the, the fixation on his watch. The broken watch, which his father without his father broke at the time of his own death, so his son would know when he died. And then, with Vidal, he sees the rebels with their guns, pointing at him he wants to break his watch. He wants to be remembered to have that same masculinist legacy. And Mercedes says, Your son will never know who you are, you will be erased. And there's something so painful about that, but it feels entirely deserved, like this kind of fatherhood is a reality that should be embraced.Evan 13:40Yeah, thanks. And I think to pick up on that. He's such an extreme version er has such an extreme understanding of fatherhood. And it fits a lot of other parts of his personality, right? He's the most brutal of anybody in the film. He shows no mercy to people who disagree. with him. And he is part of an ideology that is itself. So extreme. It's extreme nationalism. And, and he's not the only extreme character in the film. And I think that's why it's extremity or going to extremes is is my theme for the movie. There's revolutionaries, who will go to extreme measures to overthrow the fascists. Fantasy is woven throughout this film, which shows these extreme versions of reality, these extreme creatures, these extreme trials and quests, all that Ophelia has to undertake with these bloated toads, or this very, extremely pale man. And the film itself even kills a young girl, it's willing to take that step, this extreme step. And so I'm just struck by the extremes of this film, on a thematic level, on a personal level. But also the extremes of beauty in this film. It's funny, you guys had to convince me to watch it, because I thought it looked really scary. And I was so struck by how many scenes took my breath away, because they were so beautiful. And I left the film with a lot more questions. Just wondering, how do you hold together these extremes? And it seems like, somehow for Ophelia these extremes that she she is thrust into, due to choices made by her mom and her stepdad. Her answer is to go to her own kind of extreme, this extreme fantasy world, which is itself painful and scary at times. And yet, it's also beautiful. And it's this way in which she deals with the extreme situation she's in with an even deeper commitment to extreme beauty.Banks 15:30Yeah, it's, I think that Guillermo Del Toro's ability to create a beauty that is odd in some senses. But even when I watch it, you know, I also like Aaron said, I watched this back in high school, and I thought that, “This is such a cool movie. It's great.” And then I watched it again now and I'm like, Hey, this is an amazing movie and be Oof. Like, I was, I remember, you know, we all watched this together, and we were all speechless. For a minute. We were on a zoom call silent, together, just not knowing what to do with it. Partially because of the difficulty, but also because of the beauty of it, how it's masterful and putting that in terms of extremes just make so much sense. I don't know if Aaron, you had anything to say before I jump into mine?Aaron 16:29 No, please go aheadBanks 16:32I think that I just sent around the question of, it's about imagination and the question is this about imagination? Ophelia is fantasy world, something that is simply an escape from the traumatic reality that she's in. This interplay between trauma and imagination, for me, is incredibly powerful. You know, I was an art teacher for eight years. And as a result of that, just ended up being utterly inspired by students facing down incredible difficulty through art and imagination, to the point where I left and now I work in mental health. And so when I watch this movie, all I can, I'm asking, “Well, is this just about imagination as an escape? Or is this about something more than that?” I love that the film just creates this dynamic interplay between those two and we are just left to wonder left to be thoughtful with a bit of a mess at the end. You know, so much of the film is, you know, I think about the opening scene where she, Ophelia walks into the woods because her mother is experiencing morning sickness. And she finds this odd winged bug. And this, and she immediately knows that this is a fairy. And then in sort of in the seclusion and darkness as her mother sleeps back in the house, this transforms into an actual fairy that anybody could recognize, you know, with human form, and dragonfly wings. And it's that slippage. Is this happening? Is it not? Does she actually go into the door that she carves into a wall and face down the world's most frightening monster with eyes in his hands? Or is this simply a flight of fancy? And if it is, why does she fly to such frightening spaces? Why does she go to spaces that are not an escape that you'd want to go to? And I just think that that interplay is so powerful. And the power because it speaks to the power of stories and the power of imagination and the power of why we want to watch movies even to begin with. It's not because just escapism, it's because they speak to us for some reason in the midst of all of it. And that theme I have no resolution for. But man, it is stuck to me like a leech. I'll tell you what.Aaron 19:14Yea, Banks you just put a thought in my head that it's like. It's like in the world of reality she faces trauma and horror, and she has no no power, no quests, no influence. But she translates her trauma and horror into the language and symbology of myth. And then there she has agency in the myths, she has agency and influence and empowerment. And even though it's terrifying. And I just there's something about the creative space that is an empowering space, the fantasy space.Evan 19:47It's like the issue isn't the danger. The issue is agency. Yes. She's not afraid of danger. She's a brave girl. The issue is that with the doll, she's, she has no agency.Banks 20:03And with her mother's failing health. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what can you do? Right.Aaron 20:07Rather than put a Mandrake root in a bowl of milk. Banks 20:11Don't forget the blood. Aaron 20:13Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. More on that. Yes.Evan 20:19So indeed, more to come. So with those themes, the fatherhood extremes and imagination and trauma, let's think about some really specific things about this film. There are a number of leechy scenes that suck something out of you, but stick with you. I thought I would start. Mine in nothing very profound, I don't think but it is the scene where her first trial, where she goes down to find that key. And she meets this gigantic Toad, and she's in the muck underground. And it's just this large, bloated Toad, with bumps and weird colors and sounds. And it basically just, like explodes and belches out this key. And I don't think I'll ever forget it. And it's, it's stuck with me. So that's my scene.Banks 21:15Man. And I believe that there are things sticking on her and that seem to mean she's covered in. I remember, you're like texting to each other like, Oh, my gosh, she's covered in leeches! Evan 21:30It was very on brand for the Leech Podcast.Banks 21:35But like, she emerges from that, like from the stump covered in muck, right. And even then, right, she has been returned to the dinner party. Right, it's a moment of sort of the world, the extremes colliding, right. A powerful moment. You know, so for me, it's another one of the trial scenes, and oh my gosh, you know, I was alluding to it before but the scene with “the pale man” as it's called, right, with the feast of all the red foods, the murals of this devourer of infants sort of reminds me of Saturn Devouring his Children, this old like painting. Good heavens. It's frightening as anything. And here's this personification of all of that. with Hannah, the scene is literally it not only is very much just about the devouring of, you know, blood, and even the food is all red. All the foods are red. And blood is itself I think, a theme and a visual motif throughout the movie. But when I think of Pan's Labyrinth, unfortunately--I wish it wasn'--the image that comes to my mind is, you know, that pale man walking with his eyes in his hands next to his forehead. You know, full credit. I believe Doug Jones, the person who did sort of the body acting for that, and it's masterful work out amazing work and sort of practical special effects throughout this. That moment sticks with me and I think about it. And I don't want to be necessarily and I in the same way, I don't want that leech on me. Like when I think of the leeches scene, that's it. And it's an overflowing of imaginative imagery. It's full of these ripe themes. That also, it makes my skin crawl. So for me, that wins out. Aaron 24:03Yeah, it doesn't get much leecheir. I have to say, for me, I've scene that sticks with me and take something out of me is this scene of conflict, where I think it's one of the first times that I really remember in the film of Ophelia, and Vidal, her stepfather colliding. And it's the scene at her mother's bedside where Ophelia has been under the bed, tending to the Mandrake with the milk and the blood that she thinks is this healing agent that the Father has given her to help her mother's health and pregnancy. And Vidal finds the bowl and hurls the Mandrake root into the fire, and Ophelia turns and watches the child burn. And good lord, it's this moment of just incredible violence like talk about he who devours infants, he who destroys and is enemy to children, it has to be down. And then that moment, right, he again takes away all her agency, destroys that thing, where she's tried to take control of her mother's health. And you can just see all the foreshadowing in that moment that whatever fatherhood means to him, it's just gonna burn, it's gonna burn it's that moment is terrible.Banks 25:26Good heavens. Think about how that pulls together. I mean, talk about a moment where the extremes collide, the moment where it goes into the fire and you're wondering, is it just a weird root? They are, and then… it starts I can hear right now…Aaron 25:25[Shudders]Banks 25:26...the scream of that root. Oh, are those screams just in her head? Where are they? Are they real? It pulls together all the themes into this just melting pot of just discomfort. Oh, that scene, Aaron...I might have to change my vote.Evan 26:11I mean, these are very Leechy scenes and I guess I mean, Vidal is central in that last one. I mean, next you have a leechy, leechiest character because I feel like he would be in the running, perhaps. Banks 26:30Oh good heavens, I think he's a front runner. I mean, here's, here's the only thing. The reason why I actually don't have the doll as the front runner. Or as the leeches character in this case, is a leech is not the host. If nothing else Vidal is a person of conviction. He is a host... of evil in my opinion. I mean, he is the worst, but he is authentic. He believes and he has drunk the Kool Aid and he is all behind everything making no qualms about it.Aaron 27:12I mean, I think he has three rows of 56 or 59 teeth each Good lord.Banks 27:17I mean, but here's the thing I wonder if the leeches are the ones who are not even taking aside at all. And so I think of, if you look at the banquet, not the banquet that happens with the pale man, but of you know, you see a priest, you see all these people who are there, they're not the rebels. They're there just let me hold on to my wealth and I'm gonna say “Okay” to whatever. And to me that speaks a lot to politics right now. I I think that it's a that that might get a little too real but...Evan 27:49The priest, man….Banks 27:56So if I had to put my finger on an actual character though there, though it's Garces. He's the lieutenant under the Vidal. He's the one who's always uncertain. He [Vidal] always speaks to him. Like, “you know, do you know how a man dies? You know, go into battle. Don't be fair. Don't be afraid, you know, does that and then he just sort of learns that he dies and he just sort of has been. He's a character who was just leeching onto the host who is Vidal? Evil host that he is. He is he had he was spineless. And I'm gonna have to ask our anatomy expert. I'm gonna say Vidall has spine. But do leeches have spines?28:40I'm gonna hold that off until next episode, so those who want to get listening, we're gonna learn about leech spines on the next episode. Do they have spines? Stay tuned.28:51Good plug. Good plug. Aaron, do you have a leaky character?Aaron 28:57All right, let me think. I think I'm reading leechiness in a little bit of a different way. I'm, you know, Ophelia is always gonna be the character in this film, who sticks with me and take something out of me. And watching this watching her struggle, watching her overcome, and even like, stare down, stare down an armed man who wants to kill her? That's always gonna stick with me. Watching her refuse on the very cusp of achieving this mythic salvation that she's been hoping for watching her refuse to hurt the child in her arms. I'm not going to forget that. And that's, that's leads for me. So he does it hurts. take something out of me. But it's medicine. It's it's medicine too. That's what I have.Evan 29:50I think I'm interpreting my character similarly to you, Aaron. I first toyed with the idea of Vidal, which maybe we all did. Because he definitely sucks the life out of me. And kind of out of the film. I mean, every scene he's in, you're just like,”Ehhh” it's like fascism is exhausting. But like to quote Lebowski, thanks to your point Banks, “Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism? You know, it's an ethos.” He's terrible. Yeah, he has a spine, but it's in the worst ways, right? So I don't see some great lesson or there's no therapy for me in his life. And, and so the character that will stick with me, who I found myself drawn to again and again was Mercedes. I think she holds together these extremes of realism and fantasy in her own way. It is really beautiful. She is the most practical, the most inside the fascist place, knows everything, knows what's going on, has so much trust. And yet she's directing all of that towards this very idealistic thing, revolution, which is, and the bravery, the brilliance, the courage. It's so powerful, and I won't forget her character. And I mean, she has so many unforgettable, unforgettable scenes. And I think, to me... it I think it's fitting that she's the one who cuts Vidal. And she's the one who physically defeats him. She is, I think, the strongest character in the film. Yeah. I mean, many characters are strong, but to me, she, she seems to match Vidal in a certain kind of strength, a kind of political strength. And yet, even there, she does him because she cuts him but she doesn't kill him. She defeats him, but doesn't take his humanity from him. And so I just, I was so taken with her and she will stick with me. And I was so terrified the whole movie that she was going to die. And so in that sense, watching her journey and struggle, sucked the life out of me. Even though she ended up living at the end of the film. So Mercedes for me, is the Leechy character.Aaron 32:07There's something really fitting about her being, in a way she is, she is a mother figure to Ophelia. And many times she provides in ways that Ophelia's mother just can't. Because her life is being sucked out of her at least away from her by the child inside of her So Mercedes, also in a way becomes the recipient, I would say, of afilias sacrifice. Uh huh. She becomes the beneficiary. She won't ever forget a philia and therefore is a different person, I think, at the end of the film.Evan 32:44Okay, so listeners, we're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna pause now for our newest segment, “Leech on a Beach.”Evan 35:32I'll start us off. This is a scene that is, I wouldn't say necessarily light. It is very violent. But after Captain Vidal, gets his mouth sliced by Mercedes, he sews it back up himself with a mirror. Very painful, it looks terrible. And then, too, I guess, disinfected, he takes a sip of whiskey. And it comes out of the wound that he's just sewn up, and he spits it out because it's so painful. And maybe it says a lot about the state of my soul, but I laughed out loud at that moment. And that was my leechy scene, or not my Leechy scene my leech on a beach, in part because it also then made me think of Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight, and the Joker. And all I could think was “Why so serious?”Aaron 33:54Oh, I was gonna say, Evan, this is not what my experience of vacation looks like. Normally when I'm going to the beach, I'm hoping for a better vacation than you just gave me. But I'll uh, I'll answer that I'm gonna try and be a little more lighthearted. And that for me, like when How do I go on vacation in this movie, and this hard movie? I'm still getting the live site data man. I'm at the beach is still leech at the beach. For me, it's for me the character in the film. Who does that, for me is the character of the light. The sunlight in the film for me is its own character. Just like when I'm at the beach, you know? And if you watch scene by scene, the way that the light presents itself in the film, as as a golden light, or is this light clear as water at different moments in the forest? For me, that's when I find myself receiving ease and going on vacation in the middle of a hard film.Banks 34:56I think that Ophelia the actress is Ivana Bachero. She has one of the world's most authentic smiles. And you see it every time something fantastic occurs, she gives this smile. It's the smile that says there is good still, and there is joy still. And yet something can be well. And in spite of all the heaviness that happens, man, that's like a summer breeze on a sunny day. I will enjoy that every time. And it like there's this weird thing right? When she meets a fairy, she finds a rock and like, shoves it into like a statue as its eye and then like a little bug shoots out of his mouth. Everyone else in their sasne mind would freak out, she smiles.Evan 36:05So I think that's a good segue to our next category which is “Hirudo Therapy.” The fancy way of saying the medicinal value of leeches. And I think maybe I'll start us off. I think for me, the idea in this film, or the thing that sticks with me, that makes the film, not just painful, but also instructive, is kind of this idea that when you're in pain, you should dive deeper into what is beautiful. And yet also, as you do so, you become aware that beauty itself brings its own kind of pain. I'm just struck by the ways Ophelia in the midst of all the suffering that she's in, she she dies, she moves toward beauty, but even that beauty is scary and hard, but it's also what she needs, it seems. And so, I guess my lesson is that the opposite of pain isn't happiness or the absence of pain. It's beauty. Only beauty can re-narrate, or redirect, or bring a new kind of order to pain and loss.Banks 37:21And it's not because it's the opposite of it, right? It's just the next step. Right? It's the answer as you put it.Evan 37:30And I thought about, there's a quote attributed to Dostoevsky, which is “Only beauty can save the world.” And I think it's a great quote, I think it's true in many ways. And I looked into it a little bit. It comes from a passage in the novel The idiot. And it's in a scene where this Prince is looking at a painting of a woman. And he says, “So you appreciate that kind of beauty.” This woman asked the prince, he says, “Yes, that kind.” The prince replies with an effort. “Why?” She asks. “In that face, there is much suffering,” he says, as though involuntarily, as though he is talking to himself. “Beauty like that is strength.” One of the other women in the room declares, “One could turn the world upside down with beauty like that.”Aaron 38:20I think for me, I'd say elaborate on that. what I wanted to talk about, you said strength, but for me, it was courage, watching the different kinds of courage that made themselves felt and the film. I'm thinking of Dr. Ferrero, the physician who helps the ailing mother, he helps wounded soldiers on both sides. He doesn't have a side other than the side of life; life prevailing, life being protected. And watching him watching Mercedes, watching Ophelia, this watching these people in the most, these awful circumstances, have courage. Its both inexplicable it's deeply moral, it's, but it's one of the most real things in the film, and it's moving to me, and it's inspiring to me, and its Hirudotherapy.Banks 39:26At least in movie form. When I think of the medicinal quality of this movie it is the love of story of narrative. It's the fact that if you want to tell a story, you can put any two things your imagination wants together, and there's a way to tell that story in a way that will captivate and move. All you have to do is see a path between the two. And somehow in Guillermo Del Toro's mind--which I have want to be able to think like in half don't want, I don't know--he saw a way to narrate the sort of fantasy world, right? That would make JK Rowling envious, and combine that with the brutality of the Spanish Civil War, and he charted a path right through the both of them. And it worked.Aaron 40:27I'm coming back to that. Coming back to the idea of courage. I think that one of the things that Ophelia embodies in the heart of this film is that she decides to value and treasure stories. Against all odds and against constant contradiction from the adults around her are saying, “Get out of your fairytale books stop fleeing into fantasy, stop imagining.” And you're right, like, her resistance is an act of courage and it's, it's enshrining the value of story at the heart of the film.Evan 41:02How many leeches do we give this film?Aaron 41:06How many leeches?Banks 41:09One is the lowest four is the highest, if I'm not mistaken?Aaron 41:12Specifically because four leeches would take your life. Just kidding. That's not actually true. I'll tell you how many leeches it would take to take a life on a future segment. Keep listening.Evan 41:26It's a four point scale still, I know Aaron wanted to cut a leech in half and call that five leeches. Yeah, four leeches. I think is still the criteriaBanks 41:39I'm going to give it fourAaron 41:11Say more, say more.Banks 41:42When I think of movies that, you know, is that, as Evan said in the intro, the movies that you watch that stick with you, then you watch them again and they floor ya. That's what happened when I watched this movie again with you guys. And it's not because I didn't know this movie. Well, I think I'd seen it multiple times, it just had been five or 10 years. And it did for me. And it stuck with me ever since it stuck with me before then. It ain't pleasant. I think it's utterly medicinal. And here's the thing the medicinal part about it has changed for me. As I've grown, as I've moved into mental health, this movie has opened up new layers. And maybe I'm biased because I got this mental health side that I'm really focused in on and this movie clearly has a huge psychological element. But it speaks to me, I'm going to give it four leeches, and I don't care who knows it,Aaron 42:42Damn? Evan 42:43Bolt, I love it.Aaron 42:44I was gonna say I mean, come back to the idea of fatherhood. Let me also come back to the idea of people walking into swamps in shorts and flip flops. Oftentimes, when leech hunters would go into the swamps, and actually oftentimes collecting leeches on their own body for medicinal purposes that they could then take off put into a basket, give to a medical practitioner, they would have to wait at least, oftentimes 20 minutes, like leave a leech on for that long because it's so much easier to take a leech off. Once it's already full it lets go easier. And for me, this movie just kept taking it, I'm giving it three leeches because it for me, as a father watching the end in this film, it took too much. It took too much. And that's why I'm gonna give it three.Evan 43:48So I think I was in a slightly different position, because it's just the first time I saw it. And I'll admit it, I was speechless at the end of it. And yet, I had, I felt it was hard connect for me in certain ways. And yet, as time has gone on, since we've watched it, and I think especially through this conversation, I'm at three leeches as well. I was, I was at two for a little while, just because I felt like I didn't connect to it for some reason. But the more I sat with it, and kind of like what you were saying thanks about story and about the power of narrative and art to work through or work into trauma and pain. I do think this film is profound for that. So I'm a three leecher for this one.Banks 44:39These are high marks. I think that is a, we are holding out at a 3.25/4.Evan 44:49All right. Well that. That brings us to the end of another episode of The leech. Thanks to all our listeners, for tuning in. We would love to hear what you thought about this episode. Again. You can find us on Twitter @LeechPodcast and on Instagram at theLeechPodcast, please. Yes, suggestions, ideas. If there are leechy scenes that we missed, please send us clips, send us summaries, send us videos of you reenacting them! We want to see it all.Aaron 45:23Not all of us are going to watch that.45:29Please keep them appropriate. Please, yeah, talk to us. Tell us what you think about the pod. And we would love to hear from you. Thanks for tuning in. On behalf of Banks and Aaron, I'm Evan Cate. This is the Leech Podcast.

 Ep. 39:  Choosing What Your Next Job Is (Live Coaching) Lindsay  00:00I'm Lindsay Mustain, and this is the career design podcast made for driven ambitious square pegs and round holes type professionals who see things differently and challenge the status quo. We obliterate obstacles and unlock hidden pathways to overcome and succeed where others have not stagnation feels like death. And we are unwilling to compromise our integrity and settle for being average in any way. We are the backbone of any successful business and those who overlook our potential are doomed to a slow demise. We do work that truly matters aligns with our purpose, and in turn, we make our lasting mark on the world. We are the dreamers, doers, legends and visionaries who are called to make our most meaningful contribution and love what we do.  Lindsay  00:42So I'm going to introduce you today because some of you have been along for the ride, some of you haven't. And this is the first of my broadcast this particular livestream series. I think I'm going to see some apologize in advance. Because I'm a human, I'm, oh, it might go rough here. But but but Abby, Abby, why don't you just give me like the quick one minute spiel of how we got to this place today where we're at and why I'm sharing your story, publicly and widely? Abby  01:12Sure. Yeah, let's I should probably have this down by now. Lindsay  01:17There might be a reason why I'm making you do that. And I want to thank you for tuning in. from Facebook. Hi. Abby  01:24Hi, guys. I was so happy you're all here with us? Um, yeah, be active in the comments. We love to see what you're saying and thinking as we're going Oh, please. That's awesome. Thanks for coming. So my my one minute spiel. So I, like many of you had a career change happen during the pandemic, there was, I worked in the same field for 16 years working corporate beauty retail. And, you know, with COVID-19, a lot of layoffs happen. And there was a reorganization eliminated my position, and I was faced with the decision of what, like, what do I do now. And I decided to go back to school during that time and train myself for a new skill in UX design, and took a boot camp and graduated in June. And I see some of my boot camp friends in the chat. So congratulations, you guys. We did it. As I went through this boot camp, and coming out of it, and looking, you know, for a new job and being on the hunt. And in this market. It I heard all these stories of how difficult it was. And I just didn't believe for myself that it was going to be the same thing. Because I've I feel like I've always been very fortunate. And so when I went into it, and I haven't gotten much of a response, and I've been putting in all this effort, I just became really frustrated and was asked to reflect on like, what, what is my journey so far? So I kind of wrote this very honest piece about what my my job hunt journey has been like. And so if you haven't read it, there's a link to it on my LinkedIn. But it's also on medium. If you're on medium. My name is Abby Mueller 411. Check it out. And yeah, it got some traction on LinkedIn. And that's how Lindsay and I got connected. She read the the piece, and it resonated with her. And it is just really in alignment with what she does, which is career design. So we hooked up and decided that other people needed to hear about what was going on. And this might be beneficial for others who are in the same boat as me looking for a job in 2021. In a new career, possibly even and yeah, just kind of hoping, like I said, to break the code last time of how to how to get past this stagnant place that we're in. Lindsay  03:39Yeah, absolutely. So there's some pain and we've been so I asked Abby, if she'd be willing to do this, like bear her soul publicly and do this in front of everyone. So first off huge, huge props to that because I said like, do you mind if I give you a publicly and walk you through the intentional career design process? I had somebody who recently started me, they're like, Oh, my, the person I was interviewed a whole bunch of job coaches, and they were so focused on what's the next title? What's the next company and I'm like, you missed the whole point of what we're trying to do here, which is get into doing work that truly matters that fills our soul that lets us actually do work that we feel energized and excited about. It's not about a job title. It's not about a particular company. It's all about what I want to do with my life. And now I wanted a lot of times people here they want to take control of their career trajectory. They want to find something that's really meaningful. The next thing is okay, now I want to work for an employer that models the values that I have. And then last actually like to be paid really well for what I do because I I'm worth it. And so that's what I teach. I'm not teaching you how to get a better job. There are a million people out there there's a reason why I'm the best in the world at what I do and I am willing to say it, I have 1000s of testimonials. I mean there is people who pop on here all the time to talk to you about what the results are working with me so and obviously that I don't ever have these people I Even though they're coming, they just come and show up. And so what what I'm going to do is walk Abby through this process. And so last week, we did. Well, she said last week, technically it was this week it was earlier this week. That was the most important thing about this is getting in the right headspace. Because if you believe that you were a victim here, if you believe that you don't have control of your circumstances, if you're doing things that limit, your, you know, energetic vibration really, honestly, is what I'm going for. If we raise that and you believe that you're capable, that you understand your worth, and that you believe that you can do this, then the rest becomes an act of of true courage and faith and walking through the process of the strategy. But if I neglect your mindset, which is what most job coaches do, then you're going to fall through the floor, and you're going to get paused on this process. And it's just it's not, you know, how emotional it can be. I asked you to do some work this week, and I want you to be really honest here. You struggled with it, right? Abby  05:53Oh, yeah. I was doing ghost cruising right along. And then it was like, like, for this job, I go, where I'm like, I throw?  Lindsay  06:03Well, there's a lot of structure and what I do, mostly because it allows people this pathway, it's not been just a few time, you know, a few people, it's 15,000 people. So I 50,000 people that I've worked with them four years and my business, but before that I'd hire 10,000 people I looked at over a million resumes, I wrote the book. And now that we've had, you know, millions of views of my content, that I know what I'm doing. So the process is pretty systemized, so that we walk through it. And what I'm doing is I want to Abby, this and she is coming. I think one thing she said this week that might resonate with people, she said, I have exactly zero years of experience. And I'm looking for how the heck I even position myself here. And of which I said, What did I say? Abby  06:48Oh, I actually have a lot of relevant experience. Yeah, I've been doing this all along. Lindsay  06:53Yes. So one of the reframes, the most powerful reframing here is that she's actually well qualified to do this work. She's done it a lot. She hasn't done it, necessarily in the same modality as this. But just like my experience in recruiting and HR delivered this process, I didn't actually teach job coaching most of my career, but what I did is I walk people through the job process. And so that's easy for a lot of people to understand that we get into the mindset here a little bit, where we think we're not qualified, or we don't know how to express what we want to do. So if you've ever struggled with this question, what do I want to be when I grow up, you're in the right place, because that Peter Pan thing that we have, or that you don't want to grow up, I want you know, you can have fun at work, you can love what you do, and you can get paid well to do it at a company that actually will treat you like you matter. So that's what we're going to go through today. So we're this module that we're going through right now is called career clarity. So I'm going to tell you that I talked about the traits of high performer earlier this week, and I'm going to I just want to say here a little bit higher. LC, Catherine, Sasheen. I always mess up her name Cuzhana, I feel like I always mess it up. So tell me how to say that Asoko totally my setup to just know that I'm doing this with love. And I'm excited to see you hear me does hear Shivani is here and William, he just lost his job. So if you, William, you're in the right place. In fact, I'm going to ask you to do me a favor, because I've extended the bootcamp. You guys have been telling me how amazing this is. And I'm so glad because when I built this, it was so powerful. And hey, Hunter, so if you would type this in somebody, especially on LinkedIn, if you're on Facebook as well, I would like you to do Oh, it's Ruby. She says clarity is number one. I don't know why it doesn't aggregate inside of here. Oh, William. Okay. Sorry. It does aggregate here. I don't know why can't see. So Ruby. But Ruby is also saying clarity is number one. And Alex says thank you for sharing. Abby Lindsay's amazing a true genius provides incredible clarity. She's changed my life. So I wishes that she's and I know Abby and I are friends on Facebook. So this is coming between my Facebook my actual business page and LinkedIn. Thank you stream yard for that. So okay, all right. Blue otter is here, Mike Wallace, and Jody is here and hunter says hi. So if you'll do this for me type dream job hacker comm slash boot camp all one word. I'll tag it on this video. And then people can go in and opt in because what I'm trying to do is get you to clarity and clarity is actually the very first thing I cover. In boot camp, believe it or not, I go straight to that mindset is most important, believe it or not, which is what goes inside of potential career design. But inside of this process, clarity is really important. So let me just tell you about why clarity matters. When we are, I'm gonna tell you a story of Alice in Wonderland, which is one of my favorite stories, in particular, the Disney movie and Alice in Wonderland, and she's going down the path and she's never been there before, right? So she comes to a fork in the road. And she's like, where do I go and the Cheshire Cat appears in the tree? And he says, or she says, Well, I don't know where I'm going with road to take. And he said, well, where would you like to go? And she said, Well, I have no idea. I've never been here before. And he said, Well, then all roads will lead you there. So without any direction, you will end up exactly where you set out for which is nowhere So this is the main strategy of why people don't have momentum in their job search, his main challenge is that they have not picked a destination. So I'm going to give you a revolutionary idea. Just pick something, just pick something, it does not matter if it is if you turn, we went north, it turned out you need to go south, you can course correct, but staying still and delete. delaying the inevitable first step is the biggest problem. And lots of people do this, because they don't have this answer. They're like, and this is not, I want you to know, Abby decided intentionally that she wanted to do something different. She wanted to take some actions into that. A lot of times people be like, Oh, I should probably get my MBA cuz then I'll be more well qualified. Folks, you'll still end up back here dealing with this same crap. I try not to swear because LinkedIn gets mad about it. They'll still deal with the same crap no matter what. So I have people come back with like three degrees. And they're like, Well, I'm not any more qualified. I have somebody who's like, they're just they've generated billions of dollars in revenue in their job, billions of dollars. No, I'm not sure I'm qualified. I have somebody who has, you know, had their their JD, they're an attorney, they also went to MIT and they still don't know what they want to do. So I'm going to tell you doesn't matter. If you have been, you know, in the world, and you've 16 years now. And then you have to start and you go back to school, or you go to MIT or you go get three master's degrees, you're still going to end up with this same crap between your ears. And so the big thing is, pick a destination and work towards that we course correct on the way okay, that analysis paralysis, yes. Okay, so I'm gonna put that up here, analysis paralysis, and it's a trait of a high performer, by the way, when we want perfection. And so we want to not take the wrong step. And this is gonna say, this is the failing that I had, I went to school for 10 years, not because I was a bad student, but because if I couldn't get a b plus or greater, and I couldn't get I couldn't get the most out of it. I withdraw. So I have a series of Ws on my transcript, because I didn't want to not be perfect. All right, perfect, does not get you jobs. Alright, so we need to just pick and so you might be and like, Abby, we're gonna go through her stuff right now. How was it going through this process? Because did I have you pick like a destination? First off what happened in the process? Abby  12:07No. And actually, I'm, like, so grateful that I, I found you that and you have the same kind of mindset, because for me, like I can do, I've been kind of a chameleon of sorts, like I just adapt to whatever environment I'm in. And I can find something to like about anything that I'm doing. It's really for me more about the culture that I'm in and like doing, like being around people who are passionate and excited about what they're doing. And, you know, being part of a team that that is doing something meaningful, and less about, like, Oh, well, I enter information into spreadsheets, or I don't even know, like, whatever it's gonna be, um, you know, it's less about the work itself and more about the environment for me, and that's what makes it so hard to search for a job because like, how do you read that in a job description? But yeah, it was for me, it was like, Okay, well, this is what I know what I want. I know, it makes me feel good, but makes me happy. But yeah, when you have to, I don't know, describe yourself in that place. It's really tough. So. So yeah, I think there was a lot of like, I guess I never really thought about that moments when I'm going through this career clarity curriculum, and just, just really breaking it down is tough for me, because I don't, I tend not to stop and think about myself, I guess I just want to like, go for the goal. I got this goal in mind, I'm going to get this goal. And like, that's what I'm going to do. And I don't stop to think about, you know, like, just check in with yourself. Is this actually still what you're wanting? Is it what you're going for? Yeah, and I don't know, I guess I, it's been interesting for me to just slow down and like, really focus. That's tough. Lindsay  13:49And it is I say, and I don't know, I can't remember I say I say there's a lot of Lindsay'isms along the way, but we have to slow down to go fast. So we go slow to go fast. And so we're trying to increase velocity, but we need to choose if we can go with full gung ho. But if we go in the wrong direction, we're just right. And I get that because I am asking you to slow down and I asked you things like, what do you enjoy? What have you done? And people are like, I don't know when I was like, okay, so if you don't know, then what's the likelihood Lindsay recruiter hire 10,000 people is going to know. Okay, and so I'm going to give you an example of how quickly it goes wrong. I want to tell you about the story about the most qualified person I ever really dealt with. And he said, Lindsay, I cannot get an interview. And thanks so much, Randy. He's been following me for this long so and Mohit Hi, it's great to see you. Um, he said, Lindsay, I cannot seem to even get an interview with your company. And I am a former top gun commander, which I didn't know is an actual thing. So I'm on your resume, Commander. Yeah, exactly. All right. Talk on commander for Harvard alumnus, former White House aide to two presidents and I can't Don't get a callback. All right. And I was like, well I feel really intimidated by that list of qualifications. But the bottom line question What did he do? Abby  15:14Do you know? Lindsay  15:16I'll tell you what I had to go dig into it and let me tell you I nobody bothered to talk to him because he couldn't articulate this to anybody and just know it plagues every single person. So I'm trying to deal with multimillion dollar CEOs transformative leaders I deal with executives I deal with thought leaders I deal with people along this way so being able to tell your narrative is not easy at all at all it is my secret power. I am been dubbed the Oracle genius I can tell you what you are at your highest level if you do this work with me and how you show up but he had no idea how to articulate that and so if you cannot ultimately use that I'm the horse here if you cannot lead your horse to water you can't get him to drink but if you can't even give them the path of who you are they will have no idea how to understand it so if it's struggle for you no chance will the person across from the table here so the first thing my people struggle this they don't have a narrative about who it is. So this idea is called a pre frame and the pre frame is the example of how people will view you and you know this it's the headline if you put it on you'll have it on your LinkedIn you'll have it on your your resume when you write a research paper your introduction statement it's really really powerful here okay Katherine says I have so resonate with this at this very moment Yes, so let's target. Abby  16:30Its just like  one or two things you know, when you're trying to sum up the all of your experience into like, a few sentences. Lindsay  16:38It's hard Yeah. The value proposition which is the most difficult thing you do and the most powerful thing you do inside of this I teach you guys how to write this by the way inside of dream job hack. It is the most nobody teaches us so I'm gonna give you access for free please go to dream.hack.com slash bootcamp okay. So what he ended up doing was he did supply chain but it was more powerful that what he actually did was last mile transportation so for anybody who has heard that terminology, it is the sexiest thing right now inside of the transportation industry if you've seen the blue prime now vans that entire business did not exist at that time that's been a creation of Amazon to create the answer for last mile transportation which is the last mile between where the package reaches the hub and gets to your home now when we use vendors we would overwhelm the system and so we needed to create our own solution which is why you know drones will be a thing of the future but we created that and these are businesses now that people run to deliver this I mean this whole thing so that was the sexy hook the thing that people were like oh this is I lead the horse in the water but what was not attractive is being a former top gun commander, Harvard alumnus, and White House aide to two presidents because they didn't tell me jack diddly about what it is that you do. So what you have to do is have the most powerful message the most powerful narrative and pre frame that is easily digestible by your target audience aka me recruiter looked at million resumes wrote the best selling book if you don't have that you lost okay so if you're wondering what the hell is going wrong, you missed this step okay. And I say that with love Let me help you it's right here well hold on we got it right here go get it I will teach you how to do this stuff okay. Now writing it is a whole other issue Mike's is conveying who you are and what you bring to the table in their hiring manager language ensuring is ensuring you're capturing what they need Yes, what they need, how are you the answer to the problem? People don't hire because it's like you know, it's a really great day in sunny out, I think I should go hire somebody, they, they hire because they have a need, and they have a problem. We're going to talk about all of these things. I can teach you everything about what I've done is reverse engineer how we hire the most elusive talent on the planet. How do you position yourself as such, the first thing starts with pre frame, okay, so we have a headline that goes on your profile and goes on your on your resume. And that's what we call a superpower trifecta. And so the superpower trifecta is the summary of the three skills at the highest level of who you are. The reason why we do this is we're trying to create a trifecta is three things. We're looking to create a triangle Okay, here's why a triangle is if you are and I'll give you my example. So for me, I'm a human resource person who specializes in talent acquisition. Now how special am I? I'm not not yet. Special whatsoever, right? I am here with millions of other people. I'm so generic. There's nothing that's particularly remarkable at least I've got some sort of specific like, like, thing I'm not just here's my list of qualifications at least told you what I have. But I'm not particularly different. This is the commodity market space. If you don't know what I'm talking about head into my profile, you can go back and catch our last live where I talked about being a commodity and being like sugar, granulated sugar on the shelf when you want to be the premium brand. So we don't want to do that. We want to position ourselves such so we're looking to triangulate when we try to find somebody who's lost in the woods when we do we triangulate their position. Same thing goes with your we're trying to triangulate Your job, genius in essence, so I need another skill. So the third skill I introduced into this was personal branding. And if I took that a little bit further, I could be talent acquisition. And I could be lean hiring systems and personal branding. And that would mean that I would be a candidate experience expert, okay. So what I'm looking for is some zone of what it is that you do, and it needs to incorporate where you want to be. So I can also, child qualified people can add a lot of different skills on this trifecta. So what we pick is what gives us energy. What makes us excited and motivated, don't choose crap that you don't like. So I can easily seven and somebody asked about this the other day, they're like OFCCP compliance, I'd also rather rip out my eyeball than do that job. So don't pick crap that you're well qualified for, that does not give you energy, choose things that you really enjoy. But what we're looking for is at the highest level, how do you show up and make it so that somebody is able to understand what you do not so the goal of your headline is on your profile? Okay. So from there, what did we what you found this work, and I know you've got something on your so tell me what you ended up doing. And you brought it out even further, you built out your entire LinkedIn, tell me what your superpower trifecta ended up being? Abby  21:09Well, going into this new career fields, I tried to direct it in that way. So I first said, and I mean, this is probably going to get edited probably like 100 times, I imagine because you know, we're getting stronger as we go, right. But the first level was user experience designer, product designer, which is kind of just the title, overarching title. Raymond, Oh, my God. And then content designer, content writer, which is getting a little more specific into the things that I really love to do, which is, you know, I love to be a product storyteller. So Oh, that's the first time I've heard that. Yeah. So for me, the really exciting thing is, you know, I can I can, I'm just gonna do a little brag, I can take a lot of really complex information and like psychology, and data and everything, and just consolidate it into a really beautiful story, which is compelling, and you want to read about it, you want to use it, you want to try it. So I create products that tell a story, and it engages and connects with people. And it makes me really excited. Anytime I can do that. And I get people excited about what I did for them. And it's something that they needed. It's like light bulb goes off. And it was like, I never know I needed this. And this is amazing. Like, it's so rewarding for me. So yeah, I love to take something cold, like a digital product and turn it into something really warm and inviting, like a story. So Lindsay  22:32I love this. Okay, and so, and that is to say, we started with something completely different yesterday, even right? clarity happens through action. I said that in the last session, clarity happens through action. So I'm going to make you do this. And I'm going to be like, Is that enough? Is that powerful? Does it does it answer a problem? This is the first time where I and I feel so I don't know what Abby's geniuses because she has articulated and to be able to digest it. And so now we're getting clearer, and I'm like, That's powerful. That's powerful. And so what I'm looking for is What is it? What is it that you do and now we're going to get into a little bit deeper here. We're just getting a baseline. But if you had gone and said, Well, I was an because I think he used to say I'm an office manager, right? Yep. Yeah. I know that story sound difference. That's how I was like, I looked at her and I was like, she has so much more. She has so much more power than that. Yeah. And now look at it like do you feel tell me I just the difference of that just from yesterday to today? Do you see the difference?  Abby  23:33I do. And I was I just needed I just need to get in front of someone because I know that if I can. Okay. Lindsay  23:44We tend to do this in a vacuum and then we ask people who actually have never hired anybody, or are our good friends. Abby  23:52Um, so yeah, office manager kind of a boring title right? If I'm gonna be honest, and there was a reason that I took it and I've been very strategic about the positions that I took in this one. I've always liked the company that I worked for I kind of went through several different departments because I was trying to understand how the corporate structure worked. Like how does they're all How do all the players work together and they didn't really understand it. And so I would go from team to team to team and I would learn and then move on to the next one. So for this one, I interacted with every department in the corporate structure and it gave me really amazing exposure to different teams their functionality, expanded my network and like for me, as I've gone along in my career, I tried to take on like bigger and bigger problems every time because as I felt more capable, like I just get really excited like if I can if I can take on something that is just terrifyingly large and like nail it. Oh yeah, that's so good. So um, I love that like I wanted something that was like completely out of my wheelhouse and it would force me to, you know, up my communication levels and up my exposure in the company. People are gonna know who I am because I have to make all these teams really happy in the space that they work in. And that's why I did it. And I did that. And it was great. And now I'm doing something totally, like different in designing that. But I'm in I'm designing digital products now. But I understand how the structure works. And I understand the needs of business. And I can speak to a lot of different groups of people, because I've interacted with a lot of groups of different people, and I understand different needs at different levels of the organization. And so for me, like that experience is so valuable, not only just in retail, but I'm just understanding people and people's needs, really fuels, my passion to create products that are going to help enhance our lives and make things easier, better, faster, right? We don't want to struggle, we want things that are tools that are going to help us do what we love. Lindsay  25:50Okay, so and I'm going to, I'm going to repeat back to what you said to me on Wednesday at 3:50pm. Where I mean, I want you to see it, because that's right, we have people going there's another skill, Abby is a genius. Yes, she is. How do I solve a problem? And here's the thing is that administrative professionals that they tend to get so dang, like, that's not there's a hardest job in the world of hire, by the way, like, have the jobs in the entire world. That is the hardest job. Because there's so much magic that goes inside of that. But we tend to like oh, that's not a really valuable player. It's not in the way you describe it like that, when she talks about it in this way. This is a powerful move. Okay, so she said, I have zero years of experience and no proof of results, because I'm not held a single job doing this kind of work. Now you tell me, that story has evolved. And now Do you believe what you're selling? Abby  26:42I yes. I mean, I know that I know that I can do this job. But I haven't done the job yet. I've only done it in school in theory and practice, right?  Lindsay  26:50Well, no, but you have done a job that is a...you haven't done a job description yet. And that's where things you don't like the whole point of this is people will actually create jobs for you. And they will give you the opportunity to be a product designer and storyteller that creates massive, you know, buy in and conversion and adoption for their customers. That's really what you're ultimately doing. And so when I tell that story, does that make sense of what you're actually doing? Okay, now I'm telling you about something that I would hire for because I've solved the pain. This is a little more advanced stuff. So right now I'm just trying to get you and we don't have to be close to the answer right now we just have to have something to shoot for. Because again, I just need a direction. It can be north, it can be south, but we need something because clarity comes through action. Okay, so that was the first thing. Now I'm saying, Okay, how do we back this up, okay. And so the next thing, what we're doing is creating a value proposition, and I'm gonna describe what the three parts of value proposition is. And if you would like access Hello, right here, just go down to dreamjobhack.com slash Bootcamp, and I will teach you this unit is totally free, okay? All right. So there are three parts your value proposition, when you're a business, a value proposition is about what your end result happens for your customer, your customer, your client, what's the end result of working with your business now I went back and mindset was all about, you're in the business of meeting, you're gonna have to articulate this, you're gonna have to sell the product, which is you, you have to sell your business. So what I'm looking for is three things. The first one is the I am statement, and this is the declaration to the universe that I am this thing. Not hopefully somebody picks me and they can see my worth. And maybe they'll give me a shot, you can say I am this thing that gets these kinds of results for this kind of company. So that's what we're really doing. And that's to make it so that Lindsay recruiter understands what the heck it is that you do. And I don't go okay Harvard alumnus, the former top gun commander and you give me this laundry list of tactical bs that does not increase the bottom line is just a list of job descriptions skills. No, we hire strategy at the highest level we're looking for what's the impact how you become the solution to the pain. And when you become the solution to pain people will do whatever it takes them banging down your door to get the result of hiring you because they know what you can articulate what you can do through that story. So the first thing is I am this. Second is and these are really this is I call it this and it's just stuff. Awesome Thing number one. Awesome Thing number two, okay, you can say I am the world's leading expert in intentional career design. I've helped over 15,000 people now do this in the last four years across 121 countries and six continents. That's awesome thing number one, by the way. Average result for was working with me means in nine weeks, somebody is going to graduate with $52,000 more in salary and 2.1 job offers. I can get you more in the course of nine weeks and your MBA program will cost you or make you in the first two years. Alright, that's hard to find. Now I've said that I have I have said who I am and they and the first thing people do is like Okay, cool. Prove it. Yeah, that's what I awesome thing. Number one. This is called social proof. Awesome Thing number two social proof. Okay, so if you can't articulate what it is that you do, and the result that you have Then you have nothing okay um okay so what let's go to what we had before he or not maybe beforehand because we did this work and what I do is I have you when you work inside my programs I actually spent four years developing this tool to make it Mad Libs style where I'm like input this Abby  30:18so easy just plug in yes Lindsay  30:20there's a word choose a word here's another word and put a number put a level of experience and then give me the experience here and then work on awesome thing number one work on awesome The Thing number two and even without Abby She didn't even see that there was the link for that which I'm so glad she's here because she is using literally she can say now and I'm giving you permission to say you've consulted with a seven figure business and creating a new digital product to crease adoption and success rate for her clients love it and this is let me just tell you what that was is one frickin hyperlink for the most critical thing inside of this entire module but it's not something that I caught or my designers caught she caught it okay it's Abby  31:03something I exactly so she is Lindsay  31:06somebody is going to be so lucky when he comes on board and does this and I if I was gonna be honest she could do this inside of all of my entrepreneur community and start a business right now doing this work she's qualified to do that she doesn't know she's qualified to do that and that's okay thank you by the end of this she's gonna be like I'm such a badass at this point like she I'm starting Abby  31:25there I'm like here I just need to get like here yeah the only Lindsay  31:30me believing enough reason a belief into you so that you do it okay. Randy said recap value proposition I am social proof results yes times do so awesome thing number one and two yes fears equal fellow peers or fellow humans Oh I'm so glad you said that my peers are I will tell you that little story at the end because there's some there's some really big painful stories along this way. Um Okay, so let's go into your value proposition and I want you to go like that's not start from the very beginning Let's start from where you're at today. And now we have your you've told me your story let's talk about what it is and then I'm gonna see how we can make it better okay intensity and you've already gotten the feedback once which identity two or three rounds and sometimes didn't work with me good but most the time you start out with I'm not qualified I don't know how to do this I don't know what I want to be okay Josh and that's why I will actually probably be opening dream job hack this Oh, I think it's gonna be this month so just sign up that way you get in the boot camp and you'll know when I'm going to open the enrollment for that and you can work with me like this is this dream job hack is and it's a program where you can work on your own there's other options to work with me but start there because I want you to get a taste of what I am I'm not for everybody. I'm not for everybody like I'm gonna believe in you and I'm going to love on you like love if you can't tell but there's right here love my highest value. It's a really strange thing in the HR world to say I'm going to love on somebody which is why I don't do that crap anymore. I think it's a love on people I think it's a train like he was doing and to see them as souls or families or heartbeats all those things that I'll tell you a little bit more about why I do what I do at the very end so thank you but to start with that start with the because this is a free resource and attends in those five days people transform their mindset and they understand what's holding them back Okay, so let's go to your value proposition so let's go with the I am statement and there were some things missing last time like the level of professional me years of experience so what do you got and this is where this is the most stressful thing somebody doesn't mean in fact he's willing to publicly is the biggest endorsement I can give of how brave she is. Abby  33:29Do you want me to read the original? Yeah. But okay, the I am statement and you know, we'll see because like, again, I'm glad that I get to soundboard this off of you because it's like I think it makes sense but doesn't make sense to you as somebody who's wrapping my head like Totally, yeah. Cool. So I guess I can I guess I'll read the original one if you want.Okay, go ahead. Let's do the original and then tell me what I said about it to actually afterwards. Yep. Looking at the email right now which is I guess I only went through awesome thing number one I didn't give you an awesome thing number two, so Lindsay  34:05Well, let's Okay, so we're gonna start with anything else time I had the, the least effective example that I can say with somebody came back and said, I'm a team player. And I was like, well, that does nothing and team player actually dings your hire ability by 51%. I didn't just make that up. That's actually a statistical study. So we'll talk about this next week, by the way, next Friday, we're going to talk about we're going to do her resume so she actually looks like what she really is, which is amazing. Okay, good. Abby  34:31Okay, um, alright, so I wrote I am a passionate and Creative Problem Solver who transforms challenges into life enhancing tools for businesses and their customers looking for a more meaningful and rewarding digital experience? That was my statement. Um, apparently there's some detail missing so we're gonna and my my awesome thing number one was I worked with the operational and growth and development teams in a fortune 500 company to introduce and implement a stream Instructure for their 100 annual new store expansion projects contributing to a reduction in scope of 75% in just a few years taking the process from a month long project to only five days saving the company millions of dollars year over year.  Lindsay  35:14So and what did I say on this so when we don't have the true structure because she didn't have the access to the generator so the true structure of the value proposition which is we want to say I am this level of experience well I am and it's just because you guys want to love to throw in adjectives adjective an adjective kind of level of experience with this many more than this many years of experience in doing the downstream effect of what you actually do. Awesome Thing number one awesome thing number two, so I added like here's we're gonna add a little more how many years do we have here? What's the actual impact Okay, and the second thing I came back and I would read Dd you have it in front of you because I there's a lot in there that I said yeah, so Abby  35:55On the first sentence, right I'm a passionate and Creative Problem Solver you switch that over and said maybe we do like design an operational professional since I am now a designer but I was an operations professional before so like kind of combining those things and not saying problem solver is a general term so who transforms challenges and you said like what Yeah, describing what that might be and then into life enhancing tools again like what for me I know what that is, um, you know, and then for businesses and their customers looking for a more meaningful and rewarding digital experience and then you said how do you do this both now and before So again, just adding a little more detail to that because I know what that means but that is a lot of like nice words and doesn't maybe mean anything to anyone else without example.  Lindsay  36:42And you're a storyteller so Abby has a little bit of she has a more strategic vision it's the the thing that drives me crazy is when people come in they're like I'm an admin the immediate bias is that that's not a super value out of job and I was like that's a big fat lie by the way and shout out to our all our admins I'm gonna shout to my own Becky North she's our Director of awesome and she started as my VA I would not be able to run this business without her so they have incredible power if you give them the opportunity. So why I was asking is like what you've actually done is an intersection of operations design and actually really lean processes what she really does she hasn't gotten to that point yet so I'm throwing some stuff out Abby  37:20You know, what's funny is that I couldn't get a job that I wanted because I hadn't gone through six sigma and I was like, but I'm doing everything that they train you to do. Lindsay  37:29And that's the thing is like again you don't need the the buy in you just have to be able to tell the most effective story because I've heard a million stories of people getting jobs from having a drink at a bar or on an airplane and we've hired that person before who's qualified internally because they had a better story and so the story is actually what we're doing what I'm actually teaching you now I haven't told you this Abby is I'm teaching you to believe that you are this thing and be able to articulate it because the thing is not going to be the resume of the LinkedIn it's gonna be the conversation who you are as a person that they're going to buy at the level what we're trying to do okay so when we're trying to hire somebody, I do look at their qualifications but I'm looking at it to just immediately cement the belief have already have from the conversation so everything we do from here port forward is the most important thing Oh yes, the most important language to learn is to speak math and I would say results quantitative results we can talk about that next week speaking it learning it and writing it is tough yeah we were taught to be you know, really fluffy and a lot of things and I mean like what I use I make you feel really good and so you believe enough in order to get your most highest purpose on earth? No, I teach you how to get your dream job with 2.1 job offers $52,000 more in just nine weeks which one matters there is your there is a difference both things are true one will actually get the people to tune in and one won't so that's the most yeah So Mike very very good point. Okay, so Abby, let's go a little bit deeper into it what is where are you at now? So tell me about let's go through what your example is today because this is what I want you to walk away with is this value proposition about 85% firmed up Abby  39:05So I started on the if statement and I don't know if it's better the same but Lindsay  39:10I'll keep going. I mean, you're what you're talking about notice you've gotten clarity just in this conversation?  Yep. And that you know, I'm like so excited to hear you say that it's not about my resume or about applications because like it's like soul sucking I can't I'm so happy that that's not what it's about frankly, like that just a huge relief to me. So I think and you know, I believe in myself most of the time, but I don't know how to articulate it well, which is kind of funny considering I'm a writer. Um, I just can't do that to myself. So yeah, I'm really happy.  Now you can Abby  39:47But I need a little push pointers and I will take it the rest of the way. Okay, so Well, I guess do you want me to go through the awesome thing number one Lindsay  39:58Start with the I'm statement nd what I'm doing is I want to make sure that this makes sense for the trifecta the idea of who we are pre framing ourselves as. Abby  40:07Okay, so how do we instill a little little struggling with this, but we'll see what it comes out of. So I changed it to I'm a passionate and creative design and operational professional who transforms the barriers that prevent us from success into life enhancing digital solutions for businesses and their customers who want an intuitive and effortless, effortless way to accomplish their goals. Lindsay  40:26Okay, so there are some really powerful things and there's some what I call, and just No, I, I absolutely adore you, but I call them America answers. And that's where he goes, what is it that I want my platform to be at? I'm like, World Peace makes me think congeniality, world peace, and so Okay, so I am, I want to hear in there with this many years of experience. So let's go ahead and say over 15 years of experience, and I know that goes from zero to 15. But I'm going to point out what Raymond said, this is so powerful in your mind that I went from making 1350 an hour to six figures over a conversation at lunch. personal connection is so important. In fact, it is the game changer when I teach because if you're going to rely on the old, broken jalopy system of apply and pray, it doesn't work. So how we get we have to get out of that commodity market space and learn to market ourselves as an acid and solution to pain. And what is the Alex said solution to the pain is so powerful? That's right, because if somebody says like, I have invested $150,000, in my own personal development in the last six, four years, not even six years, four years, and let me just tell you, nobody goes around like I am buying into what somebody believe what they can do not based on the list of qualifications on a piece of a document, it's going to be the relationship that really changes that. And so what I'm trying to get you to do is see the value in the relationship is actually the differentiator. So if we play, or we start to value, just like you want to be valued as a human and as a soul, as long as you can articulate that to another human soul who has more influence and authority than you do. That's how we get to those next levels. Okay. Abby  41:56Got it. Hunter. I'm really glad you asked this question. And I hope that we get to it later because I struggle with this as well. Lindsay  42:02And I think it might be actually something we follow up. So Hunter, I hope you tune in next week, because this is going to be something this I'm going to tell you it's not like I'm gonna teach you one thing it's gonna be done. This is going to be a thing that you do for the rest of your life is going to be up leveling your mindset about the impact you make, but you're right, because most times especially, we are the or we have the belief that my team did it. But if you're part of a team, you're part of the result. Okay, so you got to stand in your highest power at the highest level. Okay, go ahead. Abby  42:27Yeah. I mean, I haven't gotten we've gotten that much further only started the awesome thing number one this morning. I like I told you yesterday, I kind of got my day kind of got hijacked. So I didn't get as much work into it as I could. Lindsay  42:39Don't worry, you don't have to you whatever you've done again, you show up exactly as you are we just move forward. So don't worry. Abby  42:44So yeah, just the the first part of the sentence where I said, I worked with the operational growth and development teams, you asked how many people which I was sitting there, I'm like, how many people was that? You know, like I had never quantified that. So I counted up what I thought it might be. And it's probably honestly higher than that. But I think it was about 50. A group over a group of 50 plus cross functional partners is what I did.  Lindsay  43:05So this is where we're going to take that we're going to say if it's do you believe so? 49? Yeah, sure. So over 49, 49 and the reason why is we never lie, because one that energy when we lie, or we tell fibs that comes back to bite you and they'll get you terminated. So what I'm looking for you is the only really knows your result. Because let me just tell you, you struggle to do that. Nobody is going to be able to figure you out this information. So we don't lie because it's bad karma. And second, we'll start with the lowest. So when I say like I've hired 10,343, it's actually like 12,000. But I think a very specific number, because it's more powerful. So just pick one fricking number, okay, Abby  43:40it's totally closer. Like, it could be like a few 100 people like I don't I just don't anyway,  Lindsay  43:46If you go through this every and we're gonna go through so your resume, you're like, it turns out to be even more than that. Yeah, probably is when you think about all the work you've done beforehand. That that is probably higher than that. So don't worry, we're just looking to have one baseline, and then we can up level and upgrade as we go. Okay. Abby  44:03So I haven't gone through the like how much revenue, this is where I'm at right now I'm trying to determine because you wrote, you know, when I added design, so I collaborated with a group of over 49 cross functional partners on the operational growth and development teams in a fortune 500 company to design launch and implement a streamlined structure for their 100 annual new store expansion projects. And here you wrote, how many revenue how much revenue would this? Would these stores contribute to the top line revenue? And how many people would be impacted? I'm working on it. Lindsay  44:37Let me see if I know, how many store are there, at this company.  Abby  44:42Currently about 1200. Okay. What's that? 100 every year? Lindsay  44:49Okay, so 100 every year and how many years? Did you do that? Abby  44:54Five years, four years. Yeah. Kind of four years like... Lindsay  45:00But this is where like it was just this is we want to be so accurate on this. So just remember we're going to talk about it. Okay? So if we talk about Abby  45:14I know, open a store at the time, it's more now but I know it was it was about a million dollars at the time that I was doing it per store Lindsay  45:23There are billions of dollars. So we took the number of stores, this is how we could come up with a number by the way, that's the most accurate we can predict. In 2021. We they made $6.1 billion. Yep, now divide that by 1200. And we'll just say the average for those 100 stores is times 100. Okay, that's one year's worth. Now, do you see how we can easily quantify millions of dollars of impact by the way, I know that you're not going to be that but these stores contributed that and you're part of the team. The whole point, by the way is to cement your authority that what you do makes an impact. We'll talk about how you do that as we go deeper in here, but what we're trying to do is establish your authority. So you don't start with zero experience. Okay? In 2020, it was 7.39 in 2019 is 6.7. Okay, so and you can bring this down. Abby, if that feels like that doesn't feel like I am being really fair. Go ahead and do your own math. But what I'm trying to tell you is that it's millions of dollars. I know that Okay, so I'm always looking for people to make least six figures to millions of dollars impact in that first statement. I'm looking for number of team members, I'm looking at this, and it doesn't matter that you weren't exactly leader. And if you were you say like I helped lead a team that did this, okay, there's a structure between was used i right now, we don't put that in the resume, right. But there's truth of people who use AI and personal pronouns, where they actually use it as an individual. They're higher performers and people who are like, Well, my team did that. And so yes, the reason why we do some of these things. That's a tough switch for me. Programming everything. Abby  46:53I love that we could have like, I love the the collaboration as well, I like I know that I'm a top performer myself, but I also love being able to work with others and, and do something together because they think it's more powerful than what we can accomplish on our own. So I want to give credit there as well. But yeah, I understand right here.  Lindsay  47:09right now, we're not trying to employ the rest of your team, we're just trying to employ you. Okay, so I want you to take a stab at getting a little bit deeper here. And I want you to pick a specific number. If it's like if it's, I'd like you to choose three digits if it's more than 100 team members, like 101. So 11 of us know, I mean, like you said, Oh 100 store. Abby  47:27Oh, yeah, I work with Oh, God. Um, I mean, we were hiring, how many people at each store 40 to 60 have a staff of 40 to 60 people at each store. And I would run that project each time. So yeah, and I mean, millions of dollars of revenue, and possibly like, how many jobs did we create as well? Lindsay  47:48Okay, so and then what you're telling me is you're creating the lean process, or however it is that you want to tell me about that. So now that you say that you believe that what you do matters and that you have already been qualified to do it. And now you're presenting yourself as instead of zero experience and zero qualifications? Yeah, that is the most massive change I've seen, okay. It doesn't matter. You know, the person who's created $3 billion in annual revenue for tech 500, or top tech five company. They still struggle with this question. So it doesn't matter where you're at this, this has been changed. Okay, so that's the first thing. Now I want you to take that same idea and I want you to come up with the awesome thing number two, and this is where we're going to refine this inside of the resume. But do you see the transformation of where you were just two days ago to reprogram and so I'm always telling you to see what's at the highest level so when I tell you people I've hired 10,000 people, what I didn't tell you is that a bunch of those people actually hire the fulfillment centers, which hire two to 5000 people and six we open 30 some of those stores every day so I could go higher so I chose a number that felt more like I'm not responsible for 100,000 hires and say that I said I hired 10,000 people so choose the thing you should have read both is that because I'm I am Red Bull or do something in human form. Yeah, I'm like what is it because I don't give you wings. Why? Tell me about that. Okay, so this is the up level the whole point here. So what you have to do and again, I cannot break this down enough for you right here. So go into dream job hackathon slash boot camp, I will teach you how to do this and you are not going to be automatic. So I want you to abandon that you are going to be automatic, you are going to suck if I'm really honest, okay? And does not matter. I made the chief branding Officer of a very, very big company, nearly cry doing this. And so it is hard to stand your own truth. It's a we tend to the people who let me just give you this feedback. imposters don't have imposter syndrome. I love this. A trait of a high performer is to be feel like an imposter and it's to have been a part of a team and to not take full credit. And this is where I say it's okay to do that. It is really what you do. It's okay to brag. Little it's okay to flex a little. And as long as we don't have noticed I never say like, go ahead and lie. I never say that I say how do we do this at the highest level, if we take that frame than the rest of this woman and make it so simple that somebody cuz it's not the resume again, we've just highlighted you at the highest level we make we obliterate the objections, they have have zero experience and zero qualifications. That is the only change I am trying to make here. So I want you to be at the highest level and believe that you can do this at the true level of who you are. Abby, I'm not telling you anything that you haven't just repeated back to me, I just regurgitate it in a way that makes better sense. Okay. Abby  50:32Yep. And honestly, like, this is, like I told you, I kind of like was cruising through the first part of it. And then it just, like, started to slow down. And I was I was like, oh, man, this is getting. And at this point, I was just like, and you know, and so like, I'm glad that we're having this conversation. And other people get to hear it too. Because for me, and I told you this already, but like lesson learned, I didn't ask for the figures that I should have asked for when I you know, like, how I was at a level that I could have had access to it, but I didn't. It wasn't necessarily like, you know, head of the department, you know, wasn't the VP like with all of the facts and figures for for the company. But like I could have asked and said like, What impact did this have year over year, but I don't have that. And some of the things I'm so frustrated that I lost because when I got laid off, like I was cut off within minutes. Like, I think it was like five minutes and I had no access to anything. So like all of my work, gone like and I didn't have any like kills me know, cuz I'm like, Oh, I know. I know we did something awesome. But I don't know what Lindsay  51:37I'll talk to you about how do you always create a contingency plan but when we get to the place of career power, which is on the success path. Success path says that I have unlimited opportunities coming to me I'm doing it without applying. I'm having ongoing conversations, I've negotiated my salary. The other thing that is the checklist says I have also updated my resume accordingly. So that I am prepared for the next job, the moment the opportunity comes because I'm never gonna be in a place where I am not the person who's in control of my career destiny, that my goal is I have the worst business plan ever. I hope you never need to be again, Abby, I hope you never ever mean me again. Now I'll be here when you do. But I hope you don't I just hope you send me a whole bunch of your friends. Because what I want to do is this is the rest of your life. I'm teaching how to like I used to teach people I used to actually do this work for them. And what I did is I didn't teach people how to fish. I gave them the answer and then they didn't do anything with it. So I had to reprogram and that's why the results became more powerful. So just like I've walked the same path of up leveling what I do, same thing goes for you okay. Okay, so, Abby, how do you feel? I'm gonna tell you about what next steps and then I'm going to ask questions. So what we're doing here is, I'm going to give you the to do, I want you to go back. So bring it back. And if you can get that to me Tuesday since the holiday. Also, by the way, I don't ever want you job searching. So eight days a week, I don't know where the hell this came up is not your full time job to look for a job. Do what I do with you two hours a day, Monday through Friday, if you want to rocket launch what you have, that's the most that I want somebody doing no work. If you ever heard of the preta principle 80% of your results come from 20% of efforts that's only two hours a day and Monday through Friday and then you take off weekends and holidays. Because what matters is not your job but your family. We say that again. It's not your job it's your family now I'm trying to get you to do work that actually fills your soul so it's just as rewarding for you to be there at the during the day to at night and that transition your life feels completely holistically you up level and every every range. That's really what I teach people how to do it. I love it had somebody even this year, and he spent a whole month in Hawaii working virtually for his company was everything simply because we don't have ties to a company loyalty is a really powerful thing that keeps us small. You might know that a little bit here because they'll let you go the moment it doesn't serve them. And you always have to be taking control of your career. So I'm not saying loyalty is a bad thing. I would be brokenhearted. If you believe my company. They do regularly because I teach them how to uplevel their careers. No surprise, they get recruited away. And you and I think that I'm so proud and they send me their people and they actually most likely will actually work with me part time still, because they still want to be a part of this mission. So it's a whole other frame of what I do I preach I practice what I preach, I show you what I am do this Abby  54:17for like company leaders because I swear, like as a as a manager of people like I feel the same way and I feel like it's so rare. You know, so like, like bless you for what you do. Because like I was always so excited when someone on my team could get promoted, or you know, move on or do something that they were really excited about like that, to me is like the biggest success that I could have as a brag and so many times I felt like I was betraying my manager when I took another opportunity like it felt like a breakup and it's so difficult to have those conversations sometimes I'm like why is this so backwards? So I just Lindsay  54:57somebody leadership capability is how much their team up levels. That's true. If we see somebody move forward, I'm in there, I actually I probably will go into this at some point. But I, I do teach company leaders how to do this. In particular, I have a really big vision around destroying traditional human resources. And how do we start to invest in people and see them as true human beings. There's a reason why we've treated people so small. And as just cogs in machines. There's a reason why employees are leaving and why they're so massively unhappy. There's the three reframes, I'll teach you about that, actually, because I think it'll be really powerful. But I am consulting with business on this, because what I want to do is, we've stopped we've worked so hard to protect companies from their own people that we never even allow them to be part of a true part of a team. And so yeah, they of course, they don't have any loyalty. I have somebody right now, I just talked to you. And they're like, they're like, Oh, yeah, they like changed how we did our work, and how, what we can wear and like, they're cross training us. And I said, and you're telling me it's too late, right? And they're like, yeah, it's too late and half is already left. And so there is a way to fix this. But people have missed, they missed the forest from trees. So we'll go through that. Okay. So what I want you to do is that piece, all I immediately come back with is the the trifecta, or the trifecta solidified, and your value proposition will continue to up level and you'll get clarity, you'll continue to change it. Okay, we're going into this next week is your resume, this is going to be the part where I do not care how good your resume is, the whole purpose of it is to be that you believe that you are awesome, not the person across the table. Because if you believe you're awesome, I told you the point is, the resume just solidifies the decision we make within seconds. That's it within seconds. And so if you can do that, in less than 10 seconds, you can make yourself appear as the right qualified candidate. And the rest of the conversation is decided through the interview. And through the interview, we're going to hack that too. Okay. So don't worry about the resume piece. So I'm going to ask you a couple things here. So what? Why does this matter? Okay, so no more fluff in this America answers world peace. Or if your job, your resume looks like it's a would be perfect to hire that person who replaced you, then you have missed the point, what we're not looking for is a list of tasks, we're looking for a list of impacts, we're talking about impact in scope. So we're going to optimize for a few things one format, so in six seconds, can I tell what you actually do? And makes sense? The second is content. Okay, do I show impact and scope? Okay, so what I'm looking for is am I solution to the problem? And then last, we're optimizing it in both how we view it and what will match inside of the box for so the hiring manager says yes, the recruiter says, Yes, the system says yes, we're going to optimize for all those. That's what we're doing. And the whole point here is if you do this at the highest level, guys, you do not use your resume. People graduate from my programs all

 Episode 33Lindsay  00:00I'm Lindsay Mustain and this is the career design podcast made for driven ambitious square pegs and round holes type professionals who see things differently and challenge the status quo. We obliterate obstacles and unlock hidden pathways to overcome and succeed where others have not stagnation feels like death. And we are unwilling to compromise our integrity and settle for being average in any way. We are the backbone of any successful business and those who overlook our potential are doomed to a slow demise. We do work that truly matters aligns with our purpose, and in turn, we make our lasting mark on the world. We are the dreamers, doers, legends, and visionaries who are called to make our most meaningful contribution and love what we do. Lindsay  00:42Welcome to the Career Design Podcast, I could not be more excited for our guest today. And I want to introduce you to Amanda Love, and I'll let her introduce you. But one of the things we're going to be really talking about here is true self-love and worthiness because, in order to really intentionally create that future that you want for yourself, you have to go inside and find the person that's worthy of love first in order to create that future. And it all starts with you. So I'm gonna let Amanda go in today and talk a little bit about this. But she is going to be talking about self-love goddess initiation, awakening, your divine love codes to feel empowered, inside and out. This is all about self-love. So Amanda, welcome to the podcast.  Amanda  01:25Thank you so much, I appreciate you having me here. I'm just super excited to share a little bit of my thoughts on self-love, so if you don't know me, I'm an intuitive tarot reader and I work with people to manifest the ideal relationship, I use Tarot and other magical modalities with my clients to create the love life that they really want.  Lindsay  01:53Beautiful. And I specifically asked you to come on here, because I knew that is a way that you really create that relationship with others. And let me just tell you that everything in life is based on relationships. So she is incredibly powerful, but really starts with you, right?  Amanda  02:08Completely agree, it's all about that self-love, I work, obviously with people looking to find that ideal partner, but where we start is within ourselves. So that's kind of how we attract the ideal partner that we want. So and you'll see through the love codes, just how that works a little bit.  Lindsay  02:30I am so excited about this. And we have three love codes that she's going to share with us. And I want you to again, remember that, while Amanda talks about, you know, her role is really about attracting that ideal partner. The same thing goes with intentionally designing your career and the relationships that you attract into this. So I want you to see the correlation that really it's all about you before you can begin to create your future it starts the work starts internally. So let's jump into divine love code number one.  Amanda  02:57Okay, so divine love code number one is busting the truth about what self-love really is. And this is probably where we spend the most time when I work with clients. It's about going within yourself, literally loving yourself. So I know that right now we're inundated with self-love, you know, go to the spa, do a vacation, but really, it's about going deep within yourself and becoming your own BFF, which I think a lot of us sometimes have some hard time with, you know, understanding what it is we want.  Amanda  03:32I'm sorry? Lindsay  03:34I said absolutely.  Amanda  03:35Okay, understanding what we want. What's missing in our life from being happy. Like, we have to understand what is important to us so that we know where to spend our time. And so I think that is a big portion of it is diving deep. It's a little bit hard, but I think it is completely unnecessary if you want success within various aspects of your life. Lindsay  04:04And do you have anything where you would say I mean, I think self-care, like I feel people get confused self-care versus self-love. What's the difference between like, and I think we've normalized like let's give mom showers like that's the basic level of self-care. Everybody else in the world with the shower except for moms, but how do we get into the place of true self-love versus self-care?  Amanda  04:26So obviously I listed vacations and getting a pedicure manicure before I to me, that is self-care. And it is very important. I'm not saying that it is not but self-love is really there's a lot of dimensions to it. It includes spiritual, physical, social, emotional, psychological. So really just going within yourself. Um, so some examples of things that I do. Learning boundaries, respecting yourself how you talk to yourself. For me detoxing from social media because it can be overwhelming. Absolutely. Yes. Physically, I love yoga, eating healthy training yourself to some me-time where you're actually like, asking yourself some of these questions that I don't think, I think with our busy schedules we forgot, we need me time, you know. So, to me, it's like, it's a combination of various things that we do throughout our day or in our life to really respect ourselves, I think it all comes down to how much respect we have for each other first. Lindsay  05:39I love that too. And I think there, I'm gonna say that some of the things that I've had to learn in my journey here, especially because we all get kind of traumas, we go through life, and we tend to think something's wrong with us. And just acceptance that we are our own creator, that the person that's staring back to you in the mirror is perfectly imperfect exactly who they need to be. And then accepting that. And it's not to say that I'm stagnant, but that I choose to accept and love myself today. And I choose to be better in everything that I do moving forward.  Amanda  06:09Exactly. And I think something that people have a hard time dealing with is not being perfect. You know, we're in this society where we love perfection. It's all over social media, our role models, and part of it is knowing that healing is not linear. We're constantly working on ourselves. And as long as you're doing the work, to tackle whatever comes up that day, that is showing yourself self-love. Having the patience, having the respect to honor where you're at the moment.  Lindsay  06:41I love that the phrase healing is not linear I am so borrowing that because that is incredibly powerful and giving yourself permission to forgive everything you've done up until this point that didn't go right. I think that's another thing is releasing the shame and guilt that you didn't get it right, because you were never meant to we aren't perfect, and you have to learn, you do have to heal, and then you have to choose to deliberately move forward.  Amanda  07:04Of course, yeah. And I mean, those mistakes, as we call them, lead us to where we're at the moment, you know, they help us grow, they prepare us for our future. And I think that's where we get hung up is we want this perfect life and the perfect look and all this needs to be perfect but the reality is, it's just a bunch of pieces that we put together the best we can so. Lindsay  07:28Absolutely and I love this like the idea here the relationship with yourself in order for other people to fall in love with you. Whether It's Your dream employer or whether it's your trading partner. It starts with loving yourself first because if you can't see it in you, then no one else will see it either. Completely agree. So okay, let's talk about divine love code number two, this one I'm excited about? Amanda  07:49Yes. So activate yourself, love goddesses, sacred boundaries first excel, the keyword being boundaries.  Lindsay  07:56I hear boundaries a lot right now. So I would love to hear more about this.  Amanda  08:01Well, this is probably the hardest one for a lot of my clients. Because we are just in this mentality that we have to say yes to everyone that we're going to hurt someone's feelings if we can't help them with something, or we just don't spread ourselves too thin. Or, you know, so, for me, it's like you have to set boundaries to show yourself respect. Sure, it might seem selfish, and that's okay if it is. But the thing is that boundaries help make you feel empowered. Having respect for yourself is necessary. So some of the big ones are learning to say no, when you don't want to do something when you can't, don't have the time. Eliminating toxic people from your life. That is a big one. A lot of times we're in relationships, whether it's work or personal. Where it's a one-way street you're giving all in that person might not get as much. So I think when you do the self-love work, you realize where you want to spend your time what your goals are, and you need to evaluate each decision on if it's helping you get to the goal that you want.  Lindsay  09:22I love this so much. And I think I always like to practice the absence of tolerance in this process, meaning we tolerate so much and that's that boundary that is wishy-washy, but people have mad respect for people who set their boundaries. So I'm gonna give you an example here. I asked her to do this podcast and she said, here's what I'm available, which was completely outside the time. I normally record podcasts and I said for you, I will find the time because I was so excited to share this with you and that's just the power of really, truly owning your boundaries. Amanda  10:00Yes, and I do appreciate that and we all are busy. And the thing is, we think that people are going to be upset with us if we say no, but the reality is most people are very understanding if somebody gets upset because you're setting a boundary, they're probably not the best person to have in your life.  Lindsay  10:19So true. Amanda  10:22And I think we have a hard time because we want to be loved and we want to be accepted and all that good stuff. And although I'm not saying go out and just say no to everyone, and disrespect everyone, I am saying, really evaluate what is important to you. And if it goes align with your goals with what you want, for sure, say yes. But if not, and say no. And if you can't say no, right now, maybe no is a really hard word. Maybe say, Yes, I can do this for you, but and let them know when it works better for you or let them know what part works better for you and what you can't. So I think that's definitely how I get people to kind of see it differently. Okay, you want to say yes, say yes, but say it differently? What part are you willing to sacrifice? And what are you not?  Lindsay  11:12And I'd like the thing here, as far as you remember that you always do what's in the best interest of you because people are also going to do the same. And I think one of the ways that we really lose a little bit of our identity and the ability to set boundaries is when we become this Yes, man. Because every time we say, yes, we're taking away from something else. And so you only have so many hours in the day, that is the truth, we only have so many finite resources here. So you need to prioritize yourself. And then the other things, I think that's true like self-love, self-care, and boundaries, and then being able to say yes.  Amanda  11:46Right, exactly. And it's all about at the end of the day, the respect you give yourself and yeah, the hours of the day that we have. So you still got to do the sleeping and the kids and whatever responsibilities you have. So how are you going to fill up the other hours?  Lindsay  12:01I love that you said this is a true measure of how much you respect yourself. And so if you aren't setting your boundaries, you're saying I don't respect myself, and therefore no one else should either.  Amanda  12:13Right. Correct. So we teach others how to treat ourselves.  Lindsay  12:18Oh, yes. Okay. Yes, we do treat this and this so applies to every relationship in your life, every single relationship, we train people how to treat us, and it starts with boundaries. Okay, amazing. New, this next one is really important. So I talked about worthiness, worthiness is a factor. So talk to me about divine love code number three.  Amanda  12:37So divine love code. Number three is to use your level of worthiness as a powerful tool for success. So I'm a firm believer that we are energy, everything we exude our being our bodies, everything is energy. And so how you really see yourself dictates what you attract in your life and your level of success. So, um, a lot of times, we, you know, I love affirmations, I love some of the work that you do for self-love, but it's taking it a step deeper, and really believing your level of worth. I work with a lot of clients that say, Oh, I'm gonna, I'm attracting the same type of person in my life with the same relationships in my life. And they don't realize that it's because that's the energy that they're giving off. That is, their level of worthiness is what they're attracting. So we really have to believe that we are amazed that we are beautiful, that we are successful, and we have to take action every day to do that. So worthiness is starting with us, just like self-love. And in order to have others believe it, we really have to exude it, it has to come out of our pores. So that's kind of the most important thing.  Lindsay  14:07I talk so much about energy these days, to me, the change that I've seen my clients tenfold, they're graduating at exponential rates with the same kind of results that we would see over multiple weeks in like three or four weeks. And so we're collapsing timelines. And the thing that's changed is that we introduced energy work. And so we've you've ever heard the saying, you know, your vibe attracts your tribe? That's true in every way, if you've ever walked into a room, or had somebody, you know, walk into the room, and everyone has been drawn to them. In fact, I'll give you an example of Marilyn Monroe. When she was Norma Jean, she could walk in completely undetected into a bus stop and she said one time would you like to see her to the person she's with and then immediately flipped on turn on our persona as Marilyn Monroe and the energy shifts and she started to make like a stem in this power of this attractive icon. And that's true for every single person. That is how you show up in your energy, the universe responds accordingly. Like, and there's, there's a lot of studies on this. And so it seems very woo. But really, truthfully, we attract what we put out there. And that really happens with this energy. And so if you don't believe you're worthy, you will not put out a vibe that attracts the things to you. If you do believe you're worthy if you do love yourself, if you put yourself first and you show up, and that's the energy you put into the world, the world, in turn, the universe will come back conspire for you to have that same level of energy is what you bring into your life.  Amanda  15:33And the first two love codes are an amazing way to really work on your level of worthiness. Because sometimes our subconscious plays little mind games with us, you know, we say the things that we're supposed to say, but do we believe it. And so doing working on those two first love codes is just how you're going to really embody that person embody what you want to be. So I definitely agree.  Lindsay  16:03And I'm gonna give one little tip here that I teach my clients which is to act as if some people will be like, fake it till you make it. And you know, there's there is some sense of here that you may not be everything that you hope you were at this moment, you may not be that person, you're always striving for the next level to train of high performers. But it's not about faking it. It's about acting as if you are unshakable acting as if you can create any future that you have. Even if you're not completely there. If you choose to embody that energy and put yourself out there, you will see much better results than anybody who's faking it or is doing nothing. But most people and the masses live by doing the least amount to not show up to not stand in their power to not exude confidence, to not believe that they can create the life of their dreams. So you really have to choose this. And I love the idea of like, act as if you're unshakable act as if you are a candidate of choice, act as if you have people falling over you for your time, because in turn that will show up for you.  Amanda  17:04Right. Imagine the day in the life of the person you want to be what do you eat? How do you dress? How do you talk to people? What when you walk into a room? How does that feel? So that is one of the best exercises. And I think that's something that every day we have to show ourselves to do because it's very easy to go back into the bad habits or to talk to ourselves a certain way. So it's a constant.  Lindsay  17:31That means even when you don't, it doesn't work out, right? It doesn't have to be perfect. In fact, it never is growth isn't linear either. So there's going to be times where you take the scenic path, but the question is, are you moving forward? And really the same thing, like there's one beam that says like, you know, there are 24 hours a day, so does beyond say we only has 24 hours in a day? So what are you doing with yours? And that's what I want you to think of when you're moving towards this. What would Sasha Fierce do? How do you show up that way? And when you command that when you put that energy into the world, when you set your boundaries, when you truly love yourself? You know, the difference that you'll see in the results just are transformational. So, Amanda, I would like you to tell me a little bit about what you see people shift when they invite these three love codes into their life. What changes for them? Amanda  18:22For sure, they change how they communicate their needs to people changes. There's like the confidence it's very hard to describe because when you learn to say no when you set boundaries, sure, you might feel bad the first couple of times, but then you're like, I've got time for myself, I feel good. I feel I don't feel like I've spread myself too thin. And I've seen the opportunities as well as Yes, I'm a love coach. But I have one client who I mean she grew a business just from learning to set boundaries with her family members and learning to say no, I have another client who was able to find the love of her life just by tweaking some of the things that she was doing when looking for a partner so I think that these things can affect every level of your life, whether it's your career or your personal life. It's all about how you see yourself and you're setting the precedent so I think these are life-changing.  Lindsay  19:29They are absolutely life-changing. And I will just say Amanda has worked with me in my own relationship and she is absolutely remarkable. I don't bring people on here unless I truly believe in what they do. So Amanda, if people want to find out more about you, where do they go? So I'm on Instagram as love dot goddess dot magic and on there. There's a link to my link tree which I'm near to Tiktok but I'm on there. I also have a Facebook called the Love Hub. And if you don't do anything on Social media you can find me. My email is love goddess dot magic at protonmail dot com.   Lindsay  20:08Fantastic. Thank you so much for being here. Amanda, I so appreciate you.  Amanda  20:12No thank you. I am so excited to be here I am in love with your cup podcast. I actually just listened to one of your episodes that just inspires me every time so I really appreciate it.  Lindsay  20:25Oh thank you so much, Amanda, and thank you for sharing your gift with the world.

Cast your burden on the Lord,And He shall sustain you;He shall never permit the righteous to be moved.Psalm 55:22 The word of God says very clearly to us that we need to cast our burdens on the Lord and He shall sustain us. Jesus can be trusted, therefore take your burden to Him, He will sustain you until His good timing.Remember Mary and Martha, the sisters of Lazarus? When Lazarus died, they thought that Jesus had come too late, remember? But as always, the Lord is never early and never late - He is always on time.“Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.” - Mary speaking to Jesus in John 11:32I want to say to you this morning, in the midst of this Coronavirus - this COVID-19 where many people have died: Our days have been allotted to us even before we were conceived in our mother's womb. We cannot prolong our lives one day longer or shorter. Maybe somebody this morning is thinking: “If I had only looked after him/her a little bit better, then maybe they would have made it.” Not at all.The Lord gives life and the Lord takes away life.If we look at Psalm 139, this is what the Lord says, very clearly, to us this morning - and we need to listen. The Lord says:“Your eyes (the Lord's eyes) saw my substance being yet unformed (In other words He saw us even before we were formed) and in Your book, they all were written (in Your book). Psalm 139:16I am just going to say that again.“Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.And in Your book they all were written,The days fashioned for me,When as yet there were none of them.”That is pretty clear. And then in Job:“Since his days are determined,The number of his months is with You;You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass.”Job 14:5The Lord is in complete control of your life today - You have nothing to fear. Live life to the full, live it to your best and leave the rest to God. Let's start living one day at a time and that loved one that has gone ahead of you remember, the Lord says clearly in Psalm 116:“Precious in the sight of the LordIs the death of His saints.”Psalm 116:15Your loved ones are waiting for you in Heaven and you and I need to be ready because maybe today, who knows, He might come back to take us to be with Him in Paradise.Have a wonderful day.God bless you and goodbye.

Before Brad & LL go back through the previous episode's interview with Alex Street, a storytelling coach for entrepreneurs, they answered the question of why they moved to Las Vegas. Then they dug into the gold that Alex talked about confidence, how to move through fear, merging two different worlds in your life, and much more.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co .And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:ConfidenceRipping off the Band-AidEducation vs ExperienceSupport from othersGetting a coach or mentorDoing "it" for youReferences/Links:Alex Street's Website Amy Cuddy's TED TalkIf you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser and Castbox.Lesley Logan ResourcesLesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesFollow Lesley on Social MediaInstagramFacebookLinkedInTranscript:INTRODUCTION:Brad CrowellFor those of you who are fitness instructors, you know, it's, think back to when you were going through your program, you know where they required teaching hours, you remember the first time that you had to teach a body, and you were like...Like, a real body,Yeah, yeah, like, you know, all the things that I think I know that I don't really know now that I'm trying to call on them, you know, and, you know, you know, at the end of the session, the person was still okay, you know, they might have actually had a good workout. Who knows, you know, and for you, you know, now you're going away from it going, alright, here's what I'm gonna do next time.Lesley LoganWelcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.EPISODE:Lesley Logan 00:39Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co host in life, Brad, and I are going to dig into the profound conversation I have with Alex. In our last episode, it was freakin' profound (Brad: Alex Street) Alex Street. (Brad: Yes) Absolutely. And if you haven't yet listened to that interview, feel free to pause this now, go back and listen to that one and then come back and join us, or be like me, listen to this whole thing, love him so much that you have to go back and listen to all the other gems that we didn't bring up in this episode. So, okay. Several of you have been Instagram dm-ing me on the @be_it_pod because you've been seeing all this awesome stuff with the 100withme challenge happening, and I wanted to just tell you the 100withme challenge is awesome. It happens a couple times a year, we will do it again this year. So, no FOMO, just make sure that you are on the list, it is one of my favorite things to do. It is a 30-day consistency challenge. So you, it's one of the most funnest challenges out there because you decide how often you're going to do Pilates, you make a schedule, and every single week we do a live class together, a hangout session together, we give away prizes, people share how many times they're gonna do their workout and it's basically you deciding what your new routine is going to be, and then practicing it.Brad Crowell 01:59Yeah, and look, depending on when you're listening to this, you probably could still jump in, although it might because at the end, but like Lesley said, it's definitely something that happens, two, three times a year, and you can get on the list and join us for the next round, but it is, it is pretty awesome. And, and I do Pilates during the challenge too.Lesley Logan 02:21Yes, he does! He picks how often he's gonna do it. He makes a schedule, he posts when he does it, and it's, it's just really fun and the whole idea is just to help you have accountability and showing up for yourself. So, yeah, so that's the answer to that question, and I'm really excited about it. I love the 100withme, I can't wait till the next one.Brad Crowell 02:44Awesome. Well, I think we had an audience question. This week (Lesley: We did.) my dear,Lesley Logan 02:52I love audience questions, you can send us your questions at the @be_it_pod on Instagram,Brad Crowell 02:57Yes, you can just send us a DM,Lesley Logan 02:59Yeah, just any DM. Ask any question you want.Brad Crowell 03:02Questions can be about anythingLesley Logan 03:03Anything. You can ask us about our dog's (Brad: life), life (Brad: business) business, (Brad: sleeping). Oh, I have so many things on routine sleeping, water intake, I've got (Brad: water), Brad and I are on a three liter minimum take a day right now. Welcome to desert life, which brings us to...Brad Crowell 03:23Why did we move to Vegas?Lesley Logan 03:25This is such a good question, I think, and I hope we don't disappoint the person who's asking this only because we had...I remember coming to Vegas and going, I will never live in Vegas, it's...why would anyone live here? Do you remember why we're here? I don't know what year it was, maybe a year after we've been married, maybe two, and we came to see your friends perform. Both of Brad's friends were headliners on the strip in two different shows like badass couple.Brad Crowell 03:55Yeah, they're married, both the leads in shows here in town. (Lesley: Yeah), in Vegas and separate shows both the lead,Lesley Logan 04:02Both the lead. (Brad: Pretty amazing) And they had this their dream house everything and they were like, and their shows, they both found out were being cancelled at the same time.Brad Crowell 04:12Yeah. Well within weeks of within a week, two weeks of each other, they found out both shows were closing.Lesley Logan 04:16Yeah, so we, we wanted to see them so we came out to Vegas to see them both perform before the show's close, and I remember being, it was a Labor Day weekend and I remember it's like so hot and it's so smoky and like who lives here, right?Brad Crowell 04:32I do remember thinking it was oppressively hot.Lesley Logan 04:36Oppressively hot.Brad Crowell 04:37Right? But I also remember thinking that they had a really beautiful home.Lesley Logan 04:40They had a gorgeous home and we...like, living in LA, their home was multiple millions of dollars and I liked it because it had a pool and it had the view and it had a bungalow...Brad Crowell 04:53A garden with a water fountain in the middle of it, I mean...Lesley Logan 04:55Yes, and they had like this, it's like a guest house, like a carriage house or your mother-in-law suite or whatever, it's like a separate room that we stayed in with our own bathroom. (Brad: Oh yeah). And so, just coming from LA that exists in the multiple millions. It does not exist in the 1 million or under. And so anyways, it was 2019 at Christmas we were doing our Pop Up Tour for OPC so we were literally driving across the country to get home for the holidays and stopping in eight cities to teach Pilates which was so much fun. And our first stop was Vegas because my brother lives here. And I remember we're sitting on the strip having breakfast and we asked my brother, Do people live here and not work on the strip? (Brad: Right) Which is such a dumb question because we lived in LA, and people live in LA who are not in the industry. (Brad: Of course) But, like, you know, you just can't fathom it and he's like, of course, totally. And so we started doing some research. And we're like, well, we'll probably move here and like 2022.Brad Crowell 05:51Yeah, well I think also before we decided that we then went to teach at that workshop and when we found the arts district we were like, this is so cool!Lesley Logan 06:02This was true and it was so cool. We had this great coffee, it was amazing, they still are here and they have great coffee and. And so we were like yeah you know what, probably let's start looking 2021 2022 (Brad: Yeah) Because (Brad: We are not really in a hurry), no, our 2020 schedule was so packed. Every single month we're in a different country. And so we, well, we all know what happened in 2020. And we, y'all, we lived in a 500 square foot apartment with ourselves, and two dogs, and when you can't go sit at a bar and work and you can't go to your favorite gym and you can't go to your favorite Pilates...Brad Crowell 06:39Or a coffee shop or even a friend's house or my (Lesley: friend's house is like), like, like everything changed, and our entire world revolved around our 500 square foot apartment, (Lesley: and we) and made no sense.Lesley Logan 06:50And I was sitting on my meditation chair using suitcases to make a desk, and I was like, we're moving now. So we were, you know the reality is that Vegas is a four hour drive from LA, we could get so much space for what we were paying in LA, and it was such an easy decision because we still go to LA.Brad Crowell 07:14Well yeah, I mean, 100%. We, I miss LA, I love LA, it's my favorite place, but Vegas is not far, and Vegas also has an International Airport.Lesley Logan 07:25Yes, it was very...we had a couple decisions. Like, we did contemplate like Hollywood, Florida and then our friends who we love, flew from Hollywood, Florida, to our house in Cambodia and their route sounded tragic.Brad Crowell 07:38Yeah it was it was a bit much, I was like, wow, ours is so much better.Lesley Logan 07:42I was like, can't do that and, and you can fly from Vegas to Asia, in a stop, so that was pretty much the killer of Florida, being an option for us but, um, so yeah Vegas, we've moved here for space, we moved here because we could keep so much of our LA life. (Brad: Yeah), like, some of the best LA restaurants are here.Brad Crowell 08:04Oh yeah, there's tons of food here. There's you know the only thing that we didn't have here really was a community.Lesley Logan 08:11Oh I was going to say humidity, but..Brad Crowell 08:14Yeah, yeah, there's lots of differences but I think when you're, you know like, like we, there were all these positives for moving here, but the true negative of moving here was community. (Lesley: Yeah), We didn't really have friends here.Lesley Logan 08:30Yea, no. And LA is this interesting mirage of a community because you have a community but it is as transient as Vegas is, and people move all the time. And what we also realized within a lockdown was like how easy that community could just kind of go away to and so we're still buildingBrad Crowell 08:49Oh sure, even in LA our community reallyLesley Logan 08:52Had really dwindledBrad Crowell 08:54Yeah cuz we weren't the only ones moving away, (Lesley: no). Right? So, (Lesley: no). Yeah,Lesley Logan 08:58So I mean we're still working on the community here. I had a great coffee date the other day. I feel good about the community we're building, and our neighbors are awesome. So if they're listening, we love you.Brad Crowell 09:08I would say, I would say it's unique in that we have neighbors that we actually know. That wasn't something that we had in LA. Here, I mean, we know, almost all of our, we know all of our neighbors, so it's very interesting.Lesley Logan 09:22They bring us bread, they clearly don't know that I'm gluten and dairy free but,Brad Crowell 09:27But they're friendly, what a weird concept.Lesley Logan 09:29But they're so friendly and also, side note, when we are traveling last Christmas and there was like a water situation happening on our roof, our neighbors, like (Brad: Oh yeah) call us up, and they're like, hey, there's a water thing happening on your roof, we know you're not there and we're like, that is so cool. Do you know what no one would have done (Brad: Yeah) in LA? No one would have called.Brad Crowell 09:51The man, we would have gotten a call from the manager when the downstairs neighbor had a leak coming through their ceiling, (Lesley: Yes.)Lesley and Brad 09:56Okay. AnywayLesley Logan 09:56That's, thank you for that question. (Brad: Great question) You're awesome. That was so fun. We actually haven't talked about that with many people, no one really asks so thank you for that. Alright, send your questions into @be_it_pod on Instagram and we will talk about them in the next episode. (Brad: Yeah) Before we talk about Alex Street, I love him so much. I just want to remind you that it is important to prioritize yourself, and it is really hard to do that until you practice it, like prioritization of self is like anything - it's a muscle - especially if you're not used to doing it. And so I want to help you do it, and by that I mean, I want you to go to OnlinePilatesClasses.com/beit and sign up for a free class, it's 30 minutes, you can do 15 minutes if that's all you want to do, but the act of you logging in, pressing play and moving your body, it is not only connecting your mind to your body and helping you do life better, it is telling yourself that you come first. And so go to OnlinePilatesClasses.com/beit, that's OnlinePilatesClasses.com/b e i t to get that class and practice your prioritization.Brad Crowell 11:06Awesome. All right, time to talk about Alex Street. I really love this guy. He's so gentle. (Lesley: I know) His demeanor and everything about him is friendly and approachable.Lesley Logan 11:24I just, like, he's like a teddy bear, but he's not...he doesn't look like a teddy bear, but like, do you know what I mean? Like you just want to bring him with you. You just want to have him there, likeBrad Crowell 11:30He's, he's just a lovely human being, and we had a chance to meet him in 2019, and I must say, I wrote this bio myself, I did not take anything from any bio that he had given us,Lesley Logan 11:48Check out the show notes if you want the real one. But this is gonna be so good because Brad is the best edifier of peopleBrad Crowell 11:55Alex Street was born to be on stage, (Lesley: Totally) his acting career took him into the ministry where he became a youth pastor, teaching teenagers, which put him on stage every single week for more than 10 years, every single week, he was on stage for 10 years. He has since become a speaking coach, working with everyone from those working in sales, to those who are pitching products to executives leading teams, and he's so darn good at it. I'm not kidding, every time we talked to him, (Lesley: Can't believe you said it darn, he's damn good) he's damn good. Well, we have had him. Okay, first off, we've seen him speak, a couple times at that conference, we've had him two times as a webinar guest.Lesley Logan 12:41Yes, he has two courses on Profitable Pilates.Brad Crowell 12:44And then now, yes, two courses on ProfitablePilates.com and then now a podcast. (Lesley: Yeah) Okay, here is what blows my mind,Lesley Logan 12:51Tell me.Brad Crowell 12:55Each time, each time he is speaking. He's so amazing at starting with an idea, and then revisiting the idea, and then revisiting the idea and then revisiting the idea, and then closing his conversation. And the whole time he's not like, it's like, like for those tech nerds out there it's not keyword stuffing like you would with Google, and like just putting the same word on the page 50 times. He's very eloquent with how he does it. When I was listening to his interview between the two of you, I was laughing because he's like talking about, you know, how bold, you know, intrinsic, executable and targeted, he was bringing it back into the conversation without you, prompting him.Lesley Logan 13:39Oh I knowBrad Crowell 13:42And that's, but that's because of his skill, his talent of being on stage. He's just so good.Lesley Logan 13:48He's so good at it and we're gonna get we haven't gotten to our favorite parts yet but I just have to give him a little bit of a plug because he 100% deserves it. Many, many, many of my agency members, which is our coaching mastermind for fitness instructors, have hired him for one on one. They have joined his mastermind and they are going on the radio, and they are doing amazing posts on their social media, and he, he makes speaking... Well, he makes speaking magical which is his fucking thing so, somehow he made me say that without even knowing. Okay, so let me get into what I loved about the interview.Brad Crowell 14:27Yes.Lesley Logan 14:27You're not born with confidence, showing up creates confidence. I think I need to say one more time, you're not born with confidence, showing up creates confidence. So, this actually is a really interesting thing because I have so many people who asked me, How are you so confident? I wish I was as confident as you and I am scared to death most of the time, like, doing the interview with Alex, y'all, I had not been a podcaster before the interview. I was so scared, I was like, I literally was so grateful that Alex was the person because I knew okay he, he can carry a conversation if I totally freeze up, he can carry it, the act of doing it is what's made me confident. Right? (Brad: Sure) So what I think people see in other people that is confidence is probably just higher self esteem or a little bit of courage and bravery that you can have, it's the, you know I was, you can you can be confident on skis and not confident on a snowboard. Right? How do you get confidence on a snowboard? You show up and put your feet on a snowboard. I have not done that yet but this is how it works. So I really challenge all of you if you're seeking confidence in an area, it doesn't come from waiting. It doesn't come from thinking about it, it doesn't even come from plotting about it. At some point, you're gonna have to just fucking do it. And then when it's over and you realize you didn't die. You're gonna be so much more confident, the next time you do it. Brad, what is one thing that you love that he said?Brad Crowell 16:01I mean, I think it's, it's really incredible to just conceptualize the showing up part of it. (Lesley: Yeah), you know, because I, you know, I know that there's this idea of like education versus experience. (Lesley: Yeah), you know, and, and you can be, you can study and be completely, you know book smart and all the things, but until you actually go out and you do it, you know you're still going to have this fear. Alternatively, you can never study anything and just go do it, and like, you know, I mean you can still have fear there but like you can learn it on the job. Right? That's the kind of the way I think about it is like, I didn't go to college for it but I learned in my job right. (Lesley: Yeah), from a career perspective, (Lesley: yeah), that, that... going through and doing it actually being in it and doing it is going to create that confidence for you. And so it's so funny when we're contemplating, you know, talking to a stranger. How do you get over the fear of it? You got to just go talk to a stranger. (Lesley: Yeah) Right? And when you do that the first thing you're going to realize is, you don't know what to say, you know, and you, you sound silly and you, you know, you forget things and like nothing makes sense, but at the end of that conversation. They didn't punch you in the face. Like, your, your, you know, they slashed your tires, everything's fine, like, you know,Lesley Logan 17:32Who's dramatic today?Brad Crowell 17:36Basically, the world did not end, you're fine. Like, even though you might have made a fool out of yourself, even, you're still alive, you're still breathing, everything's gonna be alright. Probably if it's a stranger you never have to see that person again anyway. And it's no big deal but you walk away from that thinking, okay, I can do this again. Next time, I'm going to be prepared, but I can do this. (Lesley: Yeah), it wasn't the end of the world. (Lesley: Yeah) So I love that, you know that idea of showing up creates confidence. But one thing he talked about a bunch, which I thought was interesting, he kind of hit on it a few times during the interview. First, right out of the gate, he said he felt like he was living two different stories.Lesley Logan 18:19I know, this was so fascinating.Brad Crowell 18:21And I didn't really understand what he meant until later on in the pod where he started talking about his transition from being a youth pastor to being a speaking coach.Lesley Logan 18:34Such a great story, you'll definitely want to listen to this oneBrad Crowell 18:36And it may, I mean it made sense to me at that point was it. Oh, I totally got it, he, he was clearly confident being a pastor, being on stage, you know, teaching, leading, you know, whatever, all the things, and then when it came to selling himself as a speaking coach, he was not confident, and he, he was like it put me in a position where I felt out of sorts. You know, where I felt like I shouldn't be introducing myself, as you know, a speaking coach, I should be introducing myself as a youth pastor. Right? And so then, later on in it, he actually said, you know, I probably, like, since, since the great story that I'm not going to repeat, you got to go back to the other pod listen to it but he had this experience of telling everyone he was youth pastor, even though that wasn't his plan. And afterwards, he realized he should be marrying the two. I am a speaking coach, because I was a youth pastor. And suddenly, it validates, like it's the authority, you know like, like, you know when it comes to social triggers and proof and all the things like, why would he be a speaking coach? Oh, well, because I've been a youth pastor for 10 years, I've been on stage. More than 500 times. I have spoken to 10, groups of 10,000 like mind blown validation, all day long. (Lesley: Yeah), you know, so this idea of being in two different worlds I thought was really interesting.Lesley Logan 20:19I really, I totally resonated with that because when I was learning to become a Pilates instructor and I was managing a retail shop, and I had a really hard time telling people that I was becoming a Pilates instructor, (Brad: sure), and A) because I didn't, I didn't know if I could make as a Pilates instructor I did I just was like taking the classes and B) like, I just felt like, well, I just started so maybe I shouldn't be, uh, maybe I can't call myself that, and it was like such a weird thing and then one day, a client that I was teaching came to my shop. And she brought her friends up and here's all the girls that work for me. There's a couple customers there and, like, this is my Pilates instructor and like ‘cat was out of the bag', and then it was so funny.. It's like, You teach Pilates? And I'm like, I couldn't believe it because more people were so excited I don't know what I was thinking that people would think and I think that was fascinating but it's like you don't know what people are gonna say, so then you just think, assume the worst which is such a weird thing like,Brad Crowell 21:25Or we have this idea that we need to separate two worlds (Lesley: yeah) somehow. I'm never gonna tell anyone here about, you know that I, whatever, play, play sports or that I do this or that I am podcast host or whatever, you know, they get, you get stuck in this, this idea of lanes (Lesley: yeah), but, no, you're still you.Lesley Logan 21:44You're still you and people love you no matter what it is you do, and also people inherently want to support you. (Brad: yeah) Like this woman who I was teaching...she didn't think, Oh I'm blowing her cover. She thought, I love this girl and how she's taught me Pilates. And so and then everybody else is just like, I just, this is so..we love you and this is so cool that you're doing this. They didn't go, Oh she's gonna leave us and well my boss wasn't there, but the other people weren't like she's gonna leave us, you know, they were just like this is so cool. Good for you, like, I think we underestimate how much people want, you want us to be like in air quotes successful. I think it's happy. They want us to be happy. Alright, so,Lesley Logan 22:26Brad?Brad Crowell 22:26Tell meLesley Logan 22:28In the action items.Brad Crowell 22:29Yeah, let's talk about the BE IT, let's talk about bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items that we took away from your conversation with Alex. I was actually, this is not something that I guessed he was going to say.Lesley Logan 22:50No, but I love that you chose this as your thing because. Are you going to tell your story?Brad Crowell 22:57I can.Lesley Logan 22:57Okay.Brad Crowell 22:58I wasn't planning on it but I certainly can.Lesley Logan 23:01Tell the Blink, tell the Blinkist version.Brad Crowell 23:03I'll tell the Blinkist version. They're not sponsoring this but I'll still tell them. Well, first off, Alex said, straight up, get a coach. And he said if you can't get a coach, put yourself in a room where you can connect with people who maybe they could become a coach, right, and he said it was bold, and that he had to spend money to do it. Right? And executable was just simply getting there. I can't remember what he said about intrinsic and targeted, but he literally spelled out why getting a coach, (Lesley Logan: I know) was all four things (Lesley: He was so awesome) was amazing. (Lesley: Yeah), but I was surprised that that was what he chose, until I realized that I think that was for him and his experience, that was the point of change (Lesley: Yeah) for him where his belief, his confidence, everything about it, really shifted. And I agree with him, I mean, when you put yourself in a position to be coached. I mean we all went to college, we all you know high school college, we all, we've all been a student before, you know, and then we get past, we get out of that and we think like, alright, I guess I have to go figure it out on my own, you know or you learn on the job, or whatever. You know, maybe it's been 10-20 years since you've been in school, but when you put yourself in a position to be coached, it's this interesting mindset shift, you know, where you can suddenly change your life. And that coach could be, you know, dedicating yourself to a podcast, that coach could be actually getting a coach, maybe that coach is someone in your family, maybe you're hiring someone, you know, it could be a mentor, whatever,Lesley Logan 25:00It could be your Pilates instructor.Brad Crowell 25:02It could be your Pilates instructor. But whatever it is you're trying to do, having a mentor, having someone, someone who has been, where you're trying to go is so valuable. Because you're allowing them to be an authority. And obviously, hopefully, you trust them.Lesley Logan 25:23Yes, you should definitely pick someone who understands, like you've resonate with, that you vibe with. Don't pick someone that you don't, you know, but I think, like, I think that you have, I love that he said get a coach because I think so many people are like, I'm gonna do it on my own. And it's like, something that I, okay this is really funny. Somebody bought me a birth chart reader for my birthday back when I was like, just coming out of being homeless. And I was like really, that's what you want to do with 170 bucks? Like, I'll take it. But I did this, so I sent this guy a picture of me, my birthday, my birthplace and the time I was born. And then we did an hour long call where he basically told me all the stuff about myself. And he said, you've gone as far as you can on your own. Whatever, what ideas do you have that you can partner up with? And like, this is at a time I had, I had some friends but it's LA acquaintances, and I lost a lot of my air quotes close friends when I left my ex and so like I was building my friendship up and I was like, I don't know I'm blogging on dating with a friend, and there's this other thing, he's like, you need to say yes to anything that's in collaboration, you are, you can't go any further. And so that's when I started looking at some collaborations and I started looking at coaching and I couldn't afford coaching but I would listen to any podcast that had any coaching advice whatsoever. And I would just pretend like I'm in partnership, we're a duo, this person is my friend, is my coach. And I love that you pick this because it's so easy for us to say, oh I don't want to...I can't spend that money and I'm not saying go out and get yourself a $10,000 coach or hire us or like that. A coach can even be like setting yourself up for a membership of some kind that holds you accountable, it can be it can be it can be a mentor that is just someone you, you say can you be my mentor, my friend has a mentor. She doesn't pay him, she has dinner with him once every four to six weeks, and she can text them if there's a problem. Some people like to be mentors and she was a lawyer and he was a lawyer and so you know there's these different things and some people like to do that so I love that because it's basically, you don't have to do this alone. (Brad: Yeah 100%) Yeah.Brad Crowell 27:55So I mean, I think, I think there's so many, so many positives to getting a coach so it was great to hear him say that.Lesley Logan 28:01Yeah, I agree.Brad Crowell 28:03Okay.Lesley Logan 28:03Okay.Brad Crowell 28:04What about you?Lesley Logan 28:05Well, so I love that he said sometimes you have to do it for yourself to get you through it, and I. Okay, so this is Being It. Right? Um, one of my questions I ask myself whenever I'm scared to do something, or whenever I'm not really sure if I should do something is I really just asked myself, what's the worst thing that can happen. And when I realized that I'm not going to die...Brad Crowell 28:29I think we covered that. (Lesley: Yeah), no one's gonna slashed your tires.Lesley Logan 28:33No one's gonna. I know. I knowLesley Logan 28:36This is a competition of who can be more dark. When I realize I'm not going to die, that it makes it like, it almost kind of makes it less scary because...like fear is this funny thing in our brain. Everything sounds like the end of the world but when you put it out there, you're like, well, the worst thing that can happen is I embarrass myself, it doesn't work, blah, blah. But if you can't die, then, really, you're just gonna, like, like maybe you fall, but you don't like nothing actually structurally damaging forever is going to happen to you. It kind of takes the edge off and it makes it easier and, you know, it goes back to if you listen to one of our first episodes where I talked about Amy Cuddy and like Being It Till You See It and why this thing is here, it's like, you got to go do the thing and just get through that first one. (Brad: Yeah), because then you're on the other side you can look back and go, Oh, that wasn't so bad. (Brad: Yeah), it can get better and here's what I learned.Brad Crowell 29:38Yeah. I think it's like, I mean really it's like, it's not that practice makes perfect, but practice will put you in a position where you are gaining confidence. Right?Lesley Logan 29:48No, practice makes habit and habit makes more confidence for sure.Brad Crowell 29:52Yeah, so, so like sometimes, you know, even if you're not ready to, I just go back to selling because that's what I, you know, do, but you know sometimes you're not, you might not be ready and you know you flub it halfway through, but you did it for you. It's a big step in your own growth to go get out there and go do it. (Lesley: Yeah), I mean come on, I think I think for those of you who are fitness instructors, think back to when you were going through your program, you know where they required teaching hours. (Lesley: Yeah) Do you remember the first time that you had to teach a body? And you were like,Lesley Logan 30:34Like a real body? YeahBrad Crowell 30:35Yeah, like, you know, all the things that I think I know that I don't really know now that I'm trying to call on them, you know, and at the end of the session, the person was still okay, you know, they might have actually had a good workout. Who knows, and for you, now you're going away from it going, Alright, here's what I'm gonna do next time, right?Lesley Logan 31:00Oh, totally. And here's the other thing, it's like, if you're not a fitness instructor you're like okay how does this apply to me. Just think about if you're trying to start something that is a new routine. For example, just think back to the last time I tried a new routine that you have to go back to, like, if you've been running every day like, when did you start running. Yeah it was freaking hard to get up that first day and go for a run and you probably are panting more than you wanted, you might have even gotten lost, maybe I'm just speaking for me. Right. And you may have realized like, Okay, that didn't go the way I wanted, but I'm still here. And I kind of enjoyed it, so I'm gonna try get...Brad Crowell 31:36Remember where you got lost in St. Louis in like 30 degree weather with the dog?Lesley Logan 31:40Oh my god like I was running around in circles everyone. It was one of those developments and like every house looked the same, and I literally got lost and I had to go search through a text message. I did text you for the address like, Where are we staying? Whose house are we at? And then I had to google maps that thank God we were in the country and I wasn't in Cambodia with no Wi-Fi like out lost. (Brad: Yea) Anyways, the point is, the point is that you need to just do it for yourself to get you through it so that you can take the next step and whatever it is, rip the frickin band aid off the sting only hurts a little bit.Brad Crowell 32:17All right.Lesley Logan 32:18All right, that's, that's the name of this episode, rip off the band aid. Well, my dear. Thank you for listening. Thank you for joining us today. We are so grateful you're here, and please just a huge favor, screenshot this, share your takeaway, tag the be_it_pod, let us know what you loved about it. Send this to a friend who needs a little pick me up or a band aid rip off moment, and keep us posted on what you're doing and by sending a DM on Instagram, we will catch you on the next episode, until then, be it till you see it. Fight!Brad Crowell 32:49Cheers!Lesley LoganThat's all I've got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast!One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review.And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts.Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at be_it_pod on Instagram! I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with who ever you think needs to hear it.Help us help others to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!---Lesley Logan‘Be It Till You See It' is a production of ‘As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad CrowellIt's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley LoganKevin and Bel at Disenyo handle all of our audio editing and some social media content.Brad CrowellOur theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley LoganSpecial thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all the video each week so you can.Brad CrowellAnd to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This week on the PRISM podcast, Dan Harden and Mike Chapman reveal the process of creating the By Design TV series for a mainstream audience. Chapman also discusses expanding the popular California show into America by Design where Harden will judge the nation's best innovations. Episode TranscriptDan Harden 0:04Hello, and welcome to PRISM. PRISM is a design oriented podcast hosted by me Dan Harden. Like a glass prism that reveals the color hidden inside white light, this podcast will reveal the inside story behind innovation, especially the people that make it happen. My aim is to uncover each guest's unique point of view, their insights, their methods, or their own secret motivator, perhaps, that fuels their creative genius.Dan Harden 0:32I am speaking with my friend Mike Chapman. Mike is the executive producer of the multi TV series by design, and director of MWC. Mike has over 30 years of experience in the TV industry as a director and producer. He has a long history of creating programming for a variety of markets, especially around Australia, New Zealand, and more recently now in the United States. Some of Mike's credits include being a series producer and executive producer on Big Brother, series one through 10, Getaway, Holiday, Australia's Most Amazing Homes and Passionate Players. He manages a production team from his home in Melbourne, and now is his pad in New York City.Dan Harden 1:14Mike, thanks so much for coming on. And where are you actually now in the world?Mike Chapman 1:20Oh, boy, what a first question. I'll try and give the simple answer. I was coming back from Copenhagen, where we were doing some filming we have in our show, we'll get into that, I guess that international spotlights so we were doing some design stories in Copenhagen and I had a connection in Paris, and then they wouldn't let me on the plane. I was flying back to New York. And that's where I learned that on an Australian passport because you might have noticed, I talk funny. I'm an Australian. And they won't they won't let me back into the US unless I go via, there's like a workaround where you can go to Mexico for two weeks.Dan Harden 2:10So you're in Cancun, I'm guessing.Mike Chapman 2:13Yeah, on a little island off the off the coast of Cancun. The translation is Lady Island. Probably some of your listeners might know of it. It's a It's a lovely little place. A population of 12,000. And it's just a lot of Americans here, actually. And it's really, if I if I've got to be quarantined somewhere, you're right. It's, it's not so bad.Dan Harden 2:39It's not bad. It's like 10 o'clock in the morning, and I now see that you have a margarita in front of you. So yeah, thank you so much for doing this because I guess you're on vacation.Mike Chapman 2:51Well, kinda.Dan Harden 2:53So Mike, so one is it's it's awesome. You're doing these projects in the United States of America by design. We did California by Design, New York by Design. I was I was a part of this. And it's been a real fun experience for me to working with you, I must say. But I think for our listeners, you know, I want to really just kind of figure out especially like, as a lifestyle documentarian in the work that you're doing in Australia. What led you into this world of design and telling stories about design? I know this started in Australia for you. Because Yeah, Australia by design, which ran for three years, right?Mike Chapman 3:33Yeah, it's still going. Is it five years actually, we started five years ago, in 2016, was series one, on on channel 10 in Australia, which is kind of like the CBS, if you will of Australia, owned by CBS, in fact. And, yes. It's just the, the format has really surprised us actually. The idea of the show is that we're talking about design, but it's an accessible format. Which, if you if you want to be on Channel 10, or if you want to be on CBS, like we are in America, and you want to talk design, it's got to be an accessible format. It's got to have interest levels other than what you and I would like, I mean, I'd be quite happy to just do pure stories on design, and I'm sure you would watch them as one story. But a CBS audience or a channel 10 audience ain't gonna do that because both the Australian market and the American market we're quite immature with our design tastes, I have to say. I don't mind talking like that. You're an American, and I'm an Australian. I think we could talk about our own places. Compared to say, Italy, or where I just was in Denmark, where the guy digging up the road, kind of has a has a much greater understanding of design and where it fits into our world.Dan Harden 5:15Yeah. Alright, so, but when you were doing this on Australia, you started out on this trip, what led you in that? Like, why? Because you had other lifestyle projects. You were, I mean, the list of your credits that you were across so many different fields. But what led you into design? Were you invited by a team to talk about design and to elevate this to to television and the public?Mike Chapman 5:37Yeah, I was actually making one of those. HGTV style, ‘reno' shows at the time, it was it was a show called Love Shack. I didn't call you for that one Dan. But it was basically renovating holiday homes, that very HGTV style, it wasn't on HGTV, but it's the best way of describing it. Full of Jeopardy, had a couple of people that were famous for being just famous, basically, who were the front people and we renovated this place. So the architect on that show, is a bit of a character. He actually sat me down when on set one day, we were just sharing a drink in a break. He said, you know, you could do a show that's kind of not highbrow design, like you might find on on Netflix. And the kind of show that Dan Harlan might seek out with a, you know, glass of expensive wine in hand, instead, and yet not make a show, like we're on the set of at the moment on Love Shack, you know, mate. I think there's something in between. And that got me thinking, you know, because design doesn't have to be, you know, dished up to an Australian or American audience in such a moronic way, you know. Like, oh, wow, let's, let's love the cushions, and let's distract them and send them off and, over a weekend, we'll change their place. And they'll come back and oh, well, there'll be the big reveal. I mean, for goodness sake, I mean, that has its place, but it's just not a design show, they kind of call them design shows, which is ridiculous.Mike Chapman 7:36I guess I like to think we're making something that's a proper Design Show, you know, a show that actually talks about what design is what its impact is on on the world around us. And yet not, you know, we're, we have a spoonful of sugar, with the medicine that we deliver. It's still light, it's still still got some Jeopardy involved in it, there's a judging process, you know, all those things are kind of 101 audience retention devices. And so we still have that in the show. But we want to bring across, we want to bring along with us, the design community, you know, to make this something special, and make a difference in people's understanding of design.Dan Harden 8:27I do like how you bring in professionals to either present stories, and certainly to judge them. And that's how we met. Because I think in your third season, you invited me down to be like a guest judge. But I think for the listeners, let's describe your format. So what you do, you will select different stories from around, like when you were starting out in Australia, different manufacturers of products, like RODE microphones, for example. And there would be one or two products that you would then have a presenter go and interview them, like how did this come to be? And what what was the source of your innovation? What were your insights that led to even thinking about a new product like this? And then what did you go through, the trials and travails about getting something to market and then you reveal what the what the innovation is all about. So you're interviewing the individual creators, and the presenter is pulling out this information. And then there are maybe per season, maybe 30 or 40 of these stories that are then presented in front of a team of professional designers that then talk about evaluate, analyze, and then finally rank to select a, like a winning product out of those 30 or 40.Mike Chapman 9:53Yeah, that's right.Dan Harden 9:56Did you find it that format was working really well in Australia? And I remember distinctly having a discussion with you where I was talking to you about like, why don't you do this in the United States. The market is so big here, there's so many stories. That has to be 10 times larger than Australia. I didn't say 10 times better, I said 10 times larger than Australia. So because what I saw that one year that I did, that was like three years ago, was an extraordinary level of design happening in Australia, all over Australia, all the way over to Perth. And around the country. There were really interesting innovations that in areas that I hadn't really given a ton of thought. Uou know, there was like a shark wall that was placed, you know, 100 yards out from a beach to prevent shark attacks, which apparently are common in parts of Australia. And we've just never seen something like that. In the design, we're getting here in the United States. We always have this, this, put another shrimp on that barbie thing. But sure enough, there were like two barbecues that were being reviewed in Australia, there was that little firestarter thing. And I was like, well, you guys don't see this in United States. So what made you think that this format would work in the United States? And and why did you come here to do this?Mike Chapman 11:21Yeah. I think as it's turned out, I think it's more of an American idea than an Australian one. It's, you know, in the past couple of years of starting it in America, it's it's really taken off. So yes, you came as a guest judge, we flew you to Sydney. And that was great on one of our series there. And I do remember that conversation, yes, with you, where you're saying why why the hell do you not doing this in America? And you were, you weren't the first person to say that to me, but you were one of the stronger influences, no doubt about it. Because you were, you know, right from, you're the real deal. You know, you're a designer in Silicon Valley, saying that, we've just flown you out, bang, and that's your reaction. It's like, how much more evidence do I need? And with some of the other formats, I had done that such as Love Shack and so on, I didn't feel that they were worthy of trying to launch in America. But this one I did. I just thought we were onto something.Dan Harden 12:37Yeah, you know, I don't watch very much television in the United States. But when you do turn on television in the United States, you see, there's just so much mediocrity. And when I see, you know, these so called judging formats, and they might be judging something, you know, it's always around food, right. And there's a ton of creativity and food and, you know, everybody likes food, it's a kind of a common denominator for all of us, right? So it works. But, I mean, I find the creative process, just the most exciting thing ever, right? Like, to me, there's really nothing that can be quite as exciting. Especially, you know, when you're doing this every day, if you still feel that palpable sense of excitement, you know, there's something very real there. And, and yet, the public doesn't really have an eye into this world. Unless you're in this world of design or or if you're an, you know, an interior designer, a fashion designer, an experimental engineer, then you have this sense of what creativity is all about. But there aren't enough of these shows that elevate or expose this creative process. And that's why I was thought it was it had the potential of being popular subject matter on mainstream television, if told, right. And of course, it's all about the story. And because people don't want it, the general public doesn't really want to hear about the little design details or problems that we go through or some of the deep analysis that's required when you're doing, you know, hardcore design and engineering. And I think you have a special way of getting at the essence of what an innovation is about, especially as it relates to an individual and their individual, very specific problem. And so the kind of the encapsulating the essence of what an innovation is offering to somebody really is, I noticed when I'm working with you, either as a presenter or a judge, you've really tried to get to that essence, like what is this innovation really trying to do? And sometimes it's hard, I must say, as a designer to be able to step out of my way of thinking about a design problem. And to get it down to the basics, and you, you're good at like, just this distilling process just like what really what is it really? Like don't talk or think like a designer just, you know, give it to me the way that maybe a consumer sees it.Mike Chapman 15:23I know. I think any design problem is a great start to a story. It's got a beginning, which is the problem. And then there's the whole working through it. And then there's the solution. So you know, it's got a beginning, a middle and an end. It's just perfect for storytelling.Dan Harden 15:45Speaking of which, with these, these are all like micro stories, right? You take a project that may have lasted one or two years, and you try to tell this story in like, three, four minutes, three to four minutes, per story. I thought that was an absurd idea when I first started talking to you about this, and even reviewing some of these in Australia, but somehow you do get it down to like, Okay, I get it. You don't get you don't get the depth the struggle of of what really had to happen, you'll need it, you know, a season a complete season to go through a real product development, right?Mike Chapman 16:24But then who's gonna watch that? A handful of people like Dan Harden will love it.Dan Harden 16:29I know, when you were directing some of these pieces before I've witnessed this, and how you work. You're not shy about jumping in and saying, I don't care about that detail, skip it all together. I just don't care. And that rattles some designers because it because that may be the thing that they care the most about. And yet, yes, you know, it's the behind the scenes of product design and development that that we all want to talk about. And yet, you have to make that ultimate decision about whether or not somebody is going to be interested in that sometimes you do. You let a really cool little detail through that just really became kind of the linchpin of what made it great. And that's sometimes hard to find, it's sometimes even hard to get out of somebody, it's hard to get it out of the creator even because they've been living it. When you're living with a design problem for a long period of time, sometimes one or two years, you forget what inspired you two years prior, you forget what really made you just jump out of your skin when you made a sketch. And it's like, oh, my God, there it is.Mike Chapman 17:39Yeah, no. And we're always trying to find that moment. That is one of our key questions, isn't it? What was the a-ha moment? You know, and then they maybe dribble along. It's like, hang on? Wait, that's not a moment. You've just tried to describe a year. What was the a-ha moment? What was that moment, the difference? And often, that's a really good question to ask them because it forces them to think back in, okay. This guy wants a Hollywood answer. And then it's distilled.Dan Harden 18:12You had this idea to come to the United States to bring this format to the US. You chose California. And you call it California by Design instead of Australia by Design. Why California? And what was your experience? And how was that experience different than working with Australian designers?Mike Chapman 18:36Like any environment, it very much influences people and I think Californians just have a way about them that's, that's quite similar, the most similar of the Americans to Australians. So I think when we thought, okay, where are we gonna go first in America? I think it was all those things that and also the fact that I met you and was talking to you, and you're from California as well. It seemed like a great place to start. Not to mention real Center for Design in America, as well.Dan Harden 19:14If not, maybe the world I don't I don't really know if too many places like the Silicon Valley, especially Northern California, where so much is being produced. There's so much creativity. I mean, it's certainly rivals New York or Milan or Tokyo and other centers of design for sure. After doing a season in California, what was your impression?Mike Chapman 19:41Yeah, just so exciting, so much activity. I loved how the design community just embraced us. We'd done our research and we felt that we were special. You know, that we were doing something a niche that others weren't quite hitting. But it was confirmed well and truly by the design community, who I mean, you guys almost behave like a, like a cause, like a cause that needs to be better known in many ways. You know, in another life back in the 1800s, I was CEO of a charity for a while. And it reminded me a little bit out of that time, you know, of being a cause. Designers and the design community want to be more known, they feel they've got a good story to tell. And if only it could be told the world would be better, you might connect to some of that thinking. Yes. Yeah. And I identified that as well, I think so. So it wasn't that surprising, but it was delightful that we were so embraced by big shots like you and other designers, you know, who really could see what we were trying to do and wanted to help us.Dan Harden 21:09I think we've all been speaking on behalf of the design industry, you know, we get we are perhaps like an egotistical bunch. But you know, we are very proud of what we do. And, and yet, I think like a lot of creators and artists, I think, industrial designers, and maybe even graphic designers to a certain extent, and certainly UX designers, we all feel like we do have a really exciting story to tell. And yet there are just so few avenues to tell it. I mean, yeah, you can write blogs, and you can try to tell your stories, there's magazines and so forth. But for the most part, mainstream media has ignored design. To this day, if you tell someone Oh, I'm an industrial designers, some people's they'll say, Well, does it, What does that mean to design factories? Or what exactly do you do? Once you explain that almost every material good around them that is man made has some, obviously some design and engineering thought. And once people realize, Oh, my gosh, you mean people actually do that, that you guys invent these things and make them look good and work well and make them digestible by me, the consumer? They're fascinated. And yet, there have just been so few opportunities for designers to tell their story. So it doesn't surprise me that by the time you came here, that there was such open arms in our community for you, and to have this platform to tell these wonderful stories.Mike Chapman 22:41You have the skills, the intelligence, the process, the way of thinking to change the world. So I love my new friends. You know, because as a TV producer, I've actually realized that, you know, I'm a designer as well. I call it producing, but it's very much the same. How you run the show, everything down to how you fund it, how you make it, everything impacts on everything, you know. You if you do something here, that means this is going to pop up there, so you got to consider that. So it's the same.Dan Harden 23:17Yeah, it is the same. I mean, design, in the broadest sense of the word. It is. It's imagining something different, a change, and then strategizing a plan on how to make that change happen. That's all design really is. And then you want that change to be usually you want that change to be for a better result, a good, some, you know, smarts behind it, sustainability, some betterment of some kind that brings delight, joy, support, enablement to that end user. And, indeed, that's what you're doing when you are crafting a story, whether it's TV episodes, or a new product solution, or a new digital interface. That's that's what you're doing.Mike Chapman 24:08We want to tell these great stories that need to be told and deserve to be told. And but but but but BUT we have to do it in a format that allows us to be on CBS in front of a broad audience. My argument is, that's where the most good can be done. It's, of course, it's totally valid to have conferences and designers talking to designers about how they can do things, of course, of course, but I think there's a bigger job to be done in just rising the tide a little bit on the design conversation with the general population. And this is something that's gone on for generations in Italy, and in Denmark.Dan Harden 24:56It's part of their culture.Mike Chapman 24:57Yeah. Do you agree with me that Americans And you're probably scared to say about Australians, but let's stick with Americans that you know that we kind of have a or you guys, and Australians have an immature taste when it comes to design.Dan Harden 25:15You know, nowadays, I'm not sure if I would completely agree with that. I think were impatient, and we consume a lot. I would love to see this change. The understanding and the awareness of design has improved dramatically in the last 20 years, thanks to companies like Apple and Nike, just about every company now that takes design so seriously, that it's part of their corporate strategy, almost every company now employs some level of design or design thinking at least. And it's resulted in, generally speaking in this country, a much, much higher level of design than when I was starting out as a young designer. And it's taken longer than I would have hoped.Dan Harden 26:04]But I'll tell you today, now, especially, I mean, our moment has arrived, everything that we wanted all the dreams that we aspire to, as designers, it's happening in this country, there are very few limitations for designers, now. We are at the table with the CEO, the CTO, the CEO, we're there. And even as a design consultant, I mean, we are brought right into the C suite, to advise direct, strategize and come up with new ideas for where a company should go. So I think the awareness is there, I think, of course, we need generally more awareness in the public. And you know, why? I think when people have a higher awareness of just generally about what good design is, I think they're smarter about their consumption patterns, they might realize, well, do I really need this? Am I buying this for the right reason? Is itMike Chapman 27:04Like is it going to end up in landfill in a couple of years?Dan Harden 27:08Yeah. And also, just, I think it makes when you have a higher awareness about what design is, and what good and bad design are, it allows you to make just better choices that then ultimately do turn around when you're when you're consuming a product or an experience, whether it's digital or more material based. For it to provide that advantage, those benefits, you first have to be aware that the benefits are being presented to you. And then as you consume them that the final promise, the delivery of something good is, is offered to you. But without the awareness that you don't even know what's happening, you then happening, then you end up with a garage full of crap after 20 years of products that you really use once or twice. And that's why I think for me being involved in the show and bringing design to the masses like this, even if it's not that deep, you know, we don't end this show, we don't go into the depths of what we face as designers and engineers and inventors.Dan Harden 28:16Just having a part of the American narrative is helping a broader cause. And that broader cause being smarter about the things that you surround yourself with, smarter about the things that you consume, being just generally, more consciously aware of why you're making certain decisions. And this only helps you with every aspect of your life. Even non design related, when you realize that there are people behind what is being presented to you, whether it's an advertisement or a product, if you know a little bit about what you're looking at, you know a little bit about design it, it makes you more informed, more educated, and it makes you a better consumer, quite frankly. So I think that's a real benefit of your show. And I think that's why so many designers are coming forward and saying Hey, Mike, you know, I want to be a part of this. It's not, it's not to the old notion of like, Oh, I want to get on television. I don't. For me, it was never that it's more about telling this wonderful story of design to people that really don't know much about it.Dan Harden 29:38In television. I'm really curious, because when I went to Australia, and I saw your show down there, I thought everything is so nice. Everybody's being nice to one another. And in American television, there's always tension, you know, even Shark Tank, they're always looking for this moment where they discovered that these little companies aren't worth worth shit and, you know, and yet they're trying to get a couple $100,000 out of them. But American TV always wants the tension. They want something outrageous. They want the weirdo that's being exposed, you know? So how does your kind of filming philosophy work in America? Because it is very nice. I mean, you have some sponsors and you, you have to you are you present stories in a manner where it's kind of all tidy and buttoned up. But is it enough juice for Americans?What do you find?Mike Chapman 30:33It seems to be. Here we are. And I guess CBS would be a good authority on this topic. They love the show. And so after doing California and after producing the New York version of the show, our plans have leapt forward. What we were expecting to do was a was a series two of California by Design, a series two of New York by Design. Maybe add Chicago next. That was going to be our pathway. But having talked with CBS is like no, dammit. More is more, which is very American. Let's just jump straight to America by design.Mike Chapman 31:20We have plans by the way to celebrate California again and New York and to add Chicago and Florida is an interesting area. So is Texas, goodness me, Austin. I've learned a lot about Austin and what's going on there. So there's other regional shows that we will get to but at the moment, what's in our faces, eight markets around America, America by Design, straight away. And now we're going into series two, straight away of America by Design as well.Dan Harden 31:56So I think this particular podcast will be running during this season. So let's talk briefly about about what we just saw. Like I was a judge this year. And I saw Oh, no, we reviewed how many were there? 30, 38, 40? Something like that? It was pretty big selection.Mike Chapman 32:14Yeah. Just over 30 projects, I think 31Dan Harden 32:19Okay, so what were what were some of your interesting moments throughout those did you have favorite? Do you have either a favorite product a favorite story? Any funny little annectodotes?Mike Chapman 32:32I guess they're all my children. So I'm not allowed to have favorites. But between you and I Dan, I really love that ziptop for example. I love the story behind it. The woman Rebecca. They're in Austin.Dan Harden 32:54I love that one too. And yeah, you're right. She is just such an innovator.Mike Chapman 33:01Exactly. Everything that I love about design and throwing yourself behind, you know, believing in what you're doing. And she's like a serial entrepreneur. She's got a great husband, who's really got behind her as well, because you know, and she's the first to say he's my, my partner in all this, I couldn't have done it without him. Even though it's totally her project, but but he's an amazing support. I just love every little piece of that story. And then the product ziptop product, just so nicely designed the way that zip works at the top, and how it's how it's solving a problem. I haven't quite got to it yet, but I must order some.Dan Harden 33:45I like those. I would agree that was probably my favorite in the bunch. I liked that you just answered with the person behind it first, is what interested you about that story.Mike Chapman 33:58Absolutely.Dan Harden 33:59And that's one of the things about America by Design, California by Design other by designs, you get to meet the people behind the innovation.Dan Harden 34:06Yeah.Dan Harden 34:06That, just that just exposing that and celebrating those individuals that do this work, I think is one of the greatest contributions, your production team offers.Mike Chapman 34:19Thank you. Yes. That's really good to hear you say because that's what floats my boat the most is the people stories. Yes, a product drops out of it. And that's interesting. But yeah, the people and the passion. And that is why by the way, we also utilize designers as our presenters, our facilitators to tell these stories. You know, we could have got some fancy TV people involved, you know, an ex weather guy who's, you know, wants to, he's gonna say it just perfectly but no, we're more interested in the passion. And the end the knowledge that an actual designer like you, Dan, you know, you've presented some of our stories in the past that, you know, I'll take a hit on the performance not with you, Dan, you're brilliant.Dan Harden 35:13I don't know that for sure.Mike Chapman 35:17I'll take a hit on the performance, I'm more interested in the passion and the knowledge of design, because you bring a lot of insight into presenting those stories.Dan Harden 35:27I must say it's not a natural thing for most of us, like me, you know that have to do this. Because when you're staring into that huge glassy black lens, and you ask for, okay, generally speak about this. And that's hard. I mean, for an actor, they do this all the time, bam, bam, bam, it's out. But in my case, it was just like, Oh, my God, I gotta really concentrate on this story. And I'm used to sort of being in my head as a designer and drawing, and thinking, and creating and so forth. So it's a different medium. For me, it was a really, it was a challenge.Mike Chapman 36:05In that pressure pressure cooker situation you came through. I remember saying at the end, I think there was some tension as they typically is, on our shoots, there was some tension about whether we were going to make a flight or not as well.Dan Harden 36:20Stresses were piled up, man.Mike Chapman 36:24And I remember you delivered it. And then what do I say? Tv gold? Perfect.Dan Harden 36:32So it was nerve wracking, but in the end, fun, I'm really glad that I've been a part of this show.Mike Chapman 36:39Oh, that's good.Dan Harden 36:40Yeah. And I'm hoping that people are learning from it, increasing their awareness about design, ultimately, then talking about it. And I'm really curious to see how this is going to develop how you as a director will develop and how you will evolve this show, especially after you see the results from you know, season to season. Like, yeah, do you have any big visions about where you want to take this?Mike Chapman 37:07Now this happened. Not so much with California by design, but New York by design, I guess, is that New York magic? I don't know. But suddenly, we were being approached by other countries. I guess New York's kind of like Paris or kind of like London, I'm not sure. But suddenly, a whole bunch more people noticed the show and the format. And so we've actually had to put on somebody that whose job is just to start managing all these opportunities. And the UAE, Italy. Canada, you know, everybody's talking to us now. So we're in the process while trying to make a you know, our big break, which is trying to launch America by Design series. There's all that going all that noise going on behind us as well. It's welcomed, no doubt about it. And I just wonder how America by Design is going to go, how many more approaches? How many more levels of interest?Dan Harden 38:17So Mike, I can't thank you enough for talking to me today. It's time for you to finish that melted Margarita.Mike Chapman 38:26I know. Time for a second, I feel. Yeah. It's a real pleasure, Dan, to talk with you. I mean, you were one of our early believers. In America, well, even before America, you know, you're you're a very big reason why we ended up taking the step, bringing this fall back to America. You helped me believe that it was worth doing. So and that's certainly played out. It's absolutely been worth doing. And it feels to me that we're onwards and upwards. And hopefully you can keep, you know, playing with us. We love you as a judge. We love your comments. I'd like to get you back out on the field. If it doesn't freak you out too much and do and present a few more stories? Because I do enjoy working with you.Dan Harden 39:21Yeah, the feeling's mutual. So let's go create more good TV.Dan Harden 39:27Absolutely.Mike Chapman 39:28Mike, thank you very, very much. And we'll talk soon I look forward to seeing the new season. That's that's playing right now. Actually.Mike Chapman 39:37Yes, yeah. Go to Americabydesigntv.com. That's where you can find out where it's playing. And also actually a tip. You can you can watch the show on Americabydesigntv.com. So yes, it's on CBS. But what we have on our website is an extended version. So we don't have the the problems of, you know, the restraints of a CBS format. So we let the show breathe. The stories are longer, there's more insights from the judges. So that's actually quite a satisfying place to to watch the show.Dan Harden 40:16That's excellent. That could be more interesting or get more insight as to what what went behind these creations. I hope you put a couple of my bloopers in there.Mike Chapman 40:27I'm very careful to protect your image.Dan Harden 40:35Alright, Mike good pleasure talking to you.Mike Chapman 40:39You bet. Thanks.Dan Harden 40:40Thank you for listening to prism, follow us on whipsaw.com or your favorite streaming platform. And we'll be back with more thought provoking episodes soon.Unknown Speaker 40:50PRISM is hosted by Dan Harden, Principal designer and CEO of Whipsaw, produced by Gabrielle Whelan and Isabella Glenn, mix in sound design by Erik Buell. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

 Episode 19 Owning Your StorySPEAKERSSurabhi, Lindsay Lindsay  00:00I'm Lindsay Mustaine and this is the career design podcast made for driven ambitious square pegs and round holes type professionals who see things differently and challenge the status quo. We obliterate obstacles and unlock hidden pathways to overcome and succeed where others have not stagnation feels like death, and we are unwilling to compromise our integrity and settle for being average in any way. We are the backbone of any successful business and those who overlook our potential are doomed to a slow demise. We do work that truly matters aligns with our purpose, and in turn, we make our lasting mark on the world. We are the dreamers, doers, legends, and visionaries who are called to make our most meaningful contribution and love what we do.  Welcome to the career design podcast today I am so excited to introduce you to my guest and her name is Surabhi Sawhney. And she is somebody who has been a part of my intentional career design program and really going through the milestones of how to really expand your career and design the kind of impact that you want to make professionally in the world. So thank you so much for joining me today. Surabhi  01:03Thank you for having me. Lindsay  01:05So tell me a little bit about how you got started on this journey. And what made sense to you about career design. Surabhi  01:11I've been an entrepreneur, most of my life, I did have a life incorporate for a while, and then just opportunities came my way. And I challenged myself to deliver and to over-deliver in most anything that I did. And I didn't stop to say this is not what my career path is, I need to be in corporate America I need to be in or as an entrepreneur, I just saw them as challenges and as goals and as something that I would like to deliver and kind of rise from and learn from. So most of my life has been spent in opportunities that came my way and then making them into successes. But you know, COVID affected the last business that I was running, that I had chosen to do here in the US. And I really kind of took a pause to look at my career, what I've done, what I've accomplished, what I've learned, and what is it that I want to do next. And the growth that I've experienced over the last, you know, 10 to 15 years kind of channeled me to be an individual contributor in, in a field that I'm good at, which is helping others seeing what's needed, and then just giving my best to help them achieve their goals. That's what I realized my happiness came from is to see others succeed. And that was my success. So once I kind of channeled that information into my goal, I started looking at what I wanted to do, because I had done a little bit of recruiting and I had done sales slash business development slash customer success. And I happened to be looking at LinkedIn every day. But nothing really resonated internally until I found this specific job that really spoke to me and I decided to apply for it. But I didn't have the structure to because I've been an entrepreneur all this time, I haven't really worked on my resume or you know, made myself into this candidate-focused approach. And I happen to come across Lindsay's international career design, it was some kind of a web Facebook or LinkedIn podcast that you were doing, or video seminar. And I I hooked on to it. And I've heard a lot of career coaches, the one thing that really stood out from international career design was your spirit was your energy was everything that you were saying were so spot on, to everything that it all resonated with me. And that's the reason why I decided to join because not only was there a structure where there was accountability, and there was it was it's a very total package. And there's a lot of expectations from me, personally, there's nobody holding your hand and taking you somewhere but you need to be on that journey yourself and deliver to each module that's in there. So that's how I got on to career design. And started focusing on more I would say more like it was it's a complete package of not only a resume and the tactical things but also a self-development, networking Ninja, just learning how to become a candidate of choice for companies. But then I also linked into your dreamer collective that you give an option to kind of, you know, look into and experience for yourself. And that really got me hooked on because that got my wheels in my head turning about self-development, having a community to kind of bounce ideas off of, and practice my skills. With my friends and community members as to, you know, hearing the voices that are from outside, what do I sound like when I'm talking to somebody else? What is the reaction that I'm getting from four different people that I trust, and it's a safe place to kind of talk and grow as a person? And that I think really, really helped me to be where I am today. So I really thank you for that Lindsay to create that environment, and you apparently attract the best of the best. So that's been really good. Lindsay  05:32I'm honored and  that means so much to me. And yes, I think our community is filled with the people who are going to change the world. Absolutely. So and you are an amazing part of that community. So thank you for being a part of it.  Surhabi: 05:45One thing I do want to kind of say is that the biggest thing that kind of came across me and the reason why I am succeeding at my job search my interviews, is the self-awareness part of it and controlling what I can control, which is myself, I can't control the external, you know, factors out there, I can't control companies, I can't control the people who interview me, I can't control a lot of other things. And what I did was change my focus and make my focus more on me, how do I show up? What do I align myself with, and doing my best in everything that I did, but not expecting success from the other side? And I think that has been, you know, a total game-changer for me, where, when you don't expect and you're very calm in your you know, you just bring your best self to the table. And you don't expect the other person to either appreciate or on appreciate. You just be yourself. And you talk about yourself. And the lucky part was right when I joined your program, I was I also started interviewing with a company. And the first interview that I went to was rough. It was my first time I had done a practice interview with coal. But when I went on this interview, the feedback I got was, you know, you're not following the star pattern or you know, the star. What is it called the kind of star? The superstar forward method is how we write. Surabhi  07:22Right, which is wonderful. I love the superstar forward method. But I was not even following that I was he was digging to find out answers, I was not owning my story. I was like, Well, my, you know, experience may not be exactly relevant to what they're talking about. So I was holding back. And right away, the interviewer came back to me with great feedback, saying, here's the great part about you. And here's what you need to work on. And one of the things that you need to work on is, I had to really dig to find answers in your, in the questions that I asked you. And that took a lot of time, and you need to work on that for your next interview. So he did put me forward to the next interview. But I learned from that and you know, I think you and I spoke and I told you about me not owning my story. And then Becky saying, you know, just be who you are. And it really made a difference. I started practicing more. I called on my good close friends to listen to me answer the questions. They kind of reformatted it for me and say, you know, what about this, what about this, you've done sometimes you don't see what's inside of you, others do. So it's very important to bring in the outside to kind of look inside you and say, Here's where you're not even looking at what you've done. And these are, you know, your achievements or accomplishments. So that really helped me be better at answering the questions, being more substantive acts ask, you know, owning my own story and just being me and that's what got through me through the last interview, and you know, was offered the job because of that. So that became really clear. And the more interviews I've done, the better I've gotten it, the more comfortable I've been at it just being me because I realized that my experience means something, I am bringing things to the table, I don't need external validation for them to tell me what I've already achieved. So those things owning your own story being clear in what you want being targeted, not wanting perfection. I'm a perfectionist overall. And I realized that perfection is the enemy of progress, which I've heard from so many people unless you own it and kind of practice it in your life that I'm making progress every day, whatever little is. Maybe I work on something small on myself every day that 1% will bring about you know, those little atomic changes that you do in your life and having confidence in myself and kind of standing in my own power. The reason why today I'm very comfortable walking away from things or going into things or talking to me anybody at any level is that I stand in my own power, I kind of own my own. You know, my insight into life, my experiences, my challenges, everything that I need to work on, as well as what I've done well so that that kind of sums up where I am today. It's all about attitude and self-awareness. Lindsay  10:25I love that so much. So if you were to give a piece of advice for somebody who's thinking, Okay, I'm ready to do something more, I feel called to make a greater contribution, I'm looking to do work that truly aligns to my purpose to my power. What would you say about intentional career design? Surabhi  10:42I think the biggest thing that you can do to start anywhere in life, whether it's your career, or your personal life is having clarity, and kind of honing down into one or two things. If you want to do too many things. The people outside are confused as to who you are and what you bring to the table. So I've kind of intentionally stuck to one thing, I can do a lot of things, but what am I really good at? What is the end result of what I do? I kind of stuck to that. And there were other people who started looking at me and saying, Oh, my God, I see you're really good at this. Could you work with me on that? So when your abilities and your USP kind of becomes visible to the outside, I read somewhere that really resonated with me, where they say your confidence in yourself is seen as capability by others. And that I think really resonated with me is my confidence in myself to do what I've done my experiences, is seen as capability as others if you don't have confidence in what you can do. Others won't either. So my advice to people is always to have clarity in what you want and what you present to the world. Don't make it very wide, make it more targeted. Don't try and be perfect. Have confidence in yourself, because you've done it before and have consistency. Show up. Do the work that's required a little bit every day. don't overwhelm yourself. Don't try and, you know, apply for jobs, interview, work on yourself, read books, like everything together, sometimes can be too much. So do a little bit every day, the day that you're not interviewing, work on yourself the day that you are interviewing, just focus on that. So focus on little things at a time and I think that for me has been successful. Lindsay  12:36I love it. Thank you so much for giving your words of wisdom and congratulations on all of your success. Here we are so very proud of you. Surabhi  12:43Thank you. Lindsay  12:44All right, thank you so much for tuning into the podcast today. Now we are moving towards releasing intentional career design. So stay tuned because more details are coming and thanks for listening today.

Show Sponsor:MotorCity Grind - Jim ChatasFacebook - https://www.facebook.com/motorcitygrind17/Instagram - MotorCityGrind 17 - https://www.instagram.com/motorcitygrind17/Links mentioned in the show:Tom Scarpello, Revology Episode:https://ford-mustang-the-first-generation-the-early-years-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/tom-scarpello-revology-founder-interviewRoush Performace Engineshttps://www.roushperformance.com/engines Transcript from today's episode with Mike ReyDoug Sandler 0:01Ford Mustang Early Years Community, welcome back. Let me share some accolades about today's guest, Mike Rey. Number one, he's  coming back for a second time, which means we did something right AND he said he's heard some really good feedback from you guys about his first appearance here. Mike Rey is the National Director of Marketing and Sales, for Ford's Treasure Collectibles Official Archives Collection, but he's also manager and president of the largest International regional Mustang club (MOCSEM) Mustang Owners Club of South Eastern Michigan, and was on the official launch team for Ford in the 2015 Mustang and the GT 350. Talking about some stories and doing some things around the Mustang club, here to talk Mustangs membership and modifications. Welcome back to the show. Mike,Mike Rey 2:19Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate coming back.Doug Sandler 2:21You're a wealth of information. Man. I love having you here. And thank you for sharing so many of your connections with me. I've gotten a ton of of research done and a lot of people that have agreed to come on the show. And I would say mostly because of you and the positive words you've said about this show what gives man you know, I try to keep my reputation under the under the covers here.Mike Rey 2:41Absolutely. And I love helping out and I actually have more extensive list to share with you as well. People I think are very crucial in the Mustang community from day one, before the car was even built to the current day. So I have a lot more that I can share with you that I think would make the show amazing and what your listeners want to hear.Doug Sandler 2:57Oh, that is great. And I want to tease a couple of Although we haven't gotten commitment from anybody yet from from Mike's list, we have gotten at least a lot of a lot of levels of interest and, and maybe share a name or two. And again, if you don't know these Ford Mustang community, if you don't know these names, it's okay, you're going to know them because I'm going to do my best to make sure I get them here on the air. And, you know, not everybody can be at the reputation to the level of Mike, but we are going to have some folks that are that are amazing and can can share a lot of great stuff. So who can we tease a little bit Mike here?Mike Rey 3:28Well, I would definitely say Dave Pericak, who is the global director of foreign icons right now, who's basically in charge of all the fun stuff so GT 500 Gt 350 Mustang, Bronco, Ford Raptor, the Ford GT the new Ford Mach-E, everything Dave's in charge of all that. Wow. Okay, so that's, that's a good one again, we're gonna tease these a little bit and I'm gonna do my best Ford Mustang community you're gonna hold me responsible for making sure if that if those guests don't make their way to the to our airwaves. It's only because I screwed up. Not because I didn't get me the lead. It's now up to me to to to make sure I bring it in yet another tease would be my former boss at Selene. Amy Boylan. So if anybody's been in the Mustang community for all the years, she was a former president and CEO of Shelby American and brought Shelby to all its glory back in the early 2000s.Doug Sandler 4:21That's great. So I'm really excited to reach out to both of them hopefully, they'll both be positive. I've also reached out to a good connection that Mike has also her name is Mustang Marie. And, and she has agreed to be on the show. She's we're waiting for her to pick a date. Hopefully she'll hear this and be guilted into a little bit and hopefully she'll be on here. If you don't know her. She has a Instagram following of thousands. She's got some great photos up there. Not only of herself with the cars but some great cars, some great modifications and some great great classic rides, as well. And Mike again, thank you so much for for all the great connections you made for us.Mike Rey 4:56Mustang Marie is gonna be awesome for you and she just finally got her Mustang. She's going to tell you that story which is just just absolutely incredible that she's been such a Mustang fan for her whole life and never actually owned a Mustang until now. And it is a first generation Mustang. You know what some more we're going to talk about today too Doug is that I might be able to get you a reach out for Jack Roush Jr. being on the show. He does inteviews every now and then and we are going to be talking about Roush a little bit today. Definitely can reach out to jack for you and see if you'd like to do a episode with you.Doug Sandler 4:59So let's and I appreciate that very much. And that would be that would be a major win. So let's start there. Because I'm really curious because I really don't know a lot about Roush Performance. But you had approached me with maybe this is a subject on today's show. So I started doing some research and some background check about what Roush is all about. So why don't you tell me the position that you that you take about some of their products and then maybe we can share a little bit of your experience with them as well?Mike Rey 5:49Yeah, I was very fortunate to spend four years at Roush. I'm in the marketing department, basically running marketing being marketing manager. Great, great assets of people there. We had an amazing team to put a lot of cool stuff together and what Roush is, is Roush is a manufacturer, but they actually take the Mustang to the next level and now it's f 150s to the next level and they do Raptors and they're doing Super Duty so they keep expanding as they go. But so you're taking a really cool product and forgiving you and they're making it just a tad bit even better, if that's even possible, right? So like even rafter like what could you possibly do to a raptor? Well, that Ross record actually really, really does really well and really performs to the highest level.Doug Sandler 6:33Well, I'm looking at some of the products that they have online everything from spoilers to facials, two scoops to louvers to spoilers in the back and skirts I mean it's a pretty cool and they do a lot with it looks like exhausts and graphics and grills and all sorts of things too.Mike Rey 6:49And the number one thing is probably the superchargers So, you know they're partners with Ford Performance, doing their supercharger, which is one of the best selling superchargers there is on the market and gives us the Power and back. So my full warranty. One of the things I'm very proud of that Roush that I got to accomplish was there is to make the connection and bond between relish performance and for performance and title it partners in performance. So if you see that tagline anywhere that was one of my brainchild that I actually got per, you know, approved by Ford, Henry Ford and Pericak. And Jim Owens all got that approved for me. And that was it still to this day is partners of performance. So that forever linked Roush Performance and Ford Performance together.Doug Sandler 7:31So what's the connection between some of the classic car or some of the classic Mustang so even the first generations back to the to the mid 60s? What's the connection between a mid 60s owner and in a current owner Do you know of a later model or a late model Mustang Do you see a lot of overlap them repeating the purchase and getting now that they've had a classic ride they want something in addition to having that one that they keep in the garage and just kind of baby and love. They're having one that they can actually get out there and really enjoy the speed that they that That a late model can offer.Mike Rey 8:01Yeah, absolutely. So like the first gen owners definitely want to keep that and drive it around and show that off because that's their pride and joy and they want to be able to do that in like the local car shows, things like that. But if you're in Michigan and you want to drive out to California and you want a newer one, you know, you're not going to want to take that older one on that ride. And, you know, actually Roush offers for both people. So a lot of first generation cars are dropping what they call crate engines in there. Whether it could be a new Coyote with a Roush supercharger on it or an old 427 or something that you want to drop in. Roush still builds all those motors for all the old first gen cars and offers that's all the consumers that actually own those vehicles still, who want to do it and a lot of the big vehicles that you see across going across Barrett, the old Hot Rods and stuff or even 32 Fords things like that. All of a lot of them have Roush engines in it so that they're well known in that industry. And then in the newer phase, people are buying the Mustang automatically want to get the Roush exhaust on it are the Roush supercharger, things like that. So they're very, very well known throughout the whole community from the first generation to current.Doug Sandler 9:05Take me through a little bit of the process. So let's say that somebody that's in our listening community, which many people in our listening community have those first gen models. So let's just take a typical 65 or 66, classic, Mustang. And they want to do this what's the I'm not, I'm not holding you responsible for knowing the exact process that Roush goes through when they when they install or when they when they share a crate with you. But how does that process work? Like I would have no idea where to even begin on something like that. So where does somebody that's listening, even think about the opportunity to drop something Roush under the hood,Mike Rey 9:37They're usually at a lot of local shows. And that's you brought it up just like a perfect segue into a new one is Jim Kemp is the head of Roush engines, I can set up an interview with you too is that with him is that he can actually provide all that information in great detail but usually what happens is there's a website on Roush that you can get into the engine area. I'd have to get that for you they specific link for you. But also, they're usually at the shows like they were just recently at Barrett Jackson there at the Good Guys show, which is a lot of the older cars, if you will, first generations. And you can talk to them and get your specs and tell them what you're wanting. And then they can basically custom build the engine for you and put in your car. A cool story that we did that actually put this in effect, it's a more of a newer engine, but we put it into an older car. You ever heard of Jeff Allen, which is another list. He did a TV show that was called Chasing Cars. It was on TV A few years ago, and it ran like three or four episodes. You got to look him up. But when I was at Roush, he was doing a special Sema project and it was with a 63 Falcon. It's known as Ronin. And if you Google that you guys can see the pictures and everything what we did on that car and it was a 63 Falcon that he wanted to soup up and we put the 400 in it will put the Roush supercharger in it and the really cool thing is he notched the hood to where you could actually only see the Roush superchargers sticking out of the hood, that's all you see. So that was really Really cool and it won all kinds of awards at SEMA and it was one of the really crazy cool build but in like basically a first gen. Ford, you know from that from that area from 1963. So in that era of the first generation Mustang so that it just goes hand in hand with what we can do to customize it to whatever the customer wants.Doug Sandler 11:20It's amazing. I'm looking at some of the engines directly online right now and Ford Mustang community. I'll make sure I put a link in the show notes to to Roush engines, but it's Roushperformance.com/engine and literally it is a laundry list of every kind of engine that will that will get your eyes twirlin' here. It's everything from the 331SRX all the way up to the 5.0 Coyotes, amazing stuff in there. Wow this you know, this is the kind of stuff where I get in front of my computer and all of the stuff I have on my to do list for the day just kind of evaporates, sitting in front of the computer. Just looking at all the cool stuff on it and Again, these are these are crate engines. So these are these are brand new engines and amazing, amazing Look, I'm sure they make it. So what happens if you put something like this into into a classic Mustang? And again, I'm not expecting you know all the mechanical details of it and all as I certainly don't myself, but what happens if you put something like this into a car and the rest of the car isn't compatible meaning you don't have a transmission that can that can hold the torque that this thing is going to create or you don't have, you know the the right suspension to kind of handle this properly. What do you need to match everything up? I would assume, don't you?Mike Rey 12:33Yes, absolutely. Jim and his team will tell you like what's going to be needed to hold this car down to the ground. And then also there's other partners to like we have Gateway Classic Mustang, who another one I can get you there there but they specify and specifically in suspension and performance. So if you're doing any kind of racing, whether it be drag racing, whether it be road course racing, whether what it would be they are the pros that suspension for all Mustangs from first generation two currents, and the majority they would they do it first gen Mustangs, so they're out of the Missouri area and they just do great, great things that would complement a Roush engine going into a vehicle.Doug Sandler 13:12It's a it's amazing as again, as I'm looking at this, the technical specs of this stuff, the tech specs, it's 425 horsepower, Ford steel crankshaft it's Coyote engine 302. 425 horsepower, 475 foot pounds of torque. It's like, Oh my gosh, I like I said I could get lost in this in this forever. And I'm not a mechanical guy. But just the look and the feel of these. I mean, I could just imagine opening up my, my 65 convertible downstairs in the garage and just open it up and just seeing this brand new 5.0 in there. That would be crazy, ultra expensive. Crazy. Amazing.Mike Rey 13:48Well, then that also allows you to if you got, you know, like I said, you said you had talked to Tom Scarpello before and that's basically the old car outside, new stuff inside. So that would allow you to go from Michigan to California on a road trip.Doug Sandler 13:59Exactly. Yeah. That was Tom was a great guest from from Revology. I don't remember the exact episode number. I'll look it up. And I'll make sure I put that in the show notes as well. But yeah, really fun. So what else can you tell me about Roush because their products look really cool.Mike Rey 14:15So Roush is a lot. You know, they're known for engineering and every other thing they've been around for over 40 years, and been building cars since 1995. And now the big thing is, is that 150s with them, so it's at least when I left there, it was like 75% of sales were F150s. So three to one over Mustang, actually. So that's where the world's going is to the pickup truck era. And F150 was definitely the king for that. But yeah, I got the chance to work with Jack Roush Jr, who was absolutely amazing fun to work with. Get that super down to earth guy. A hell of a racer on the road course. I've been in the car with him on road course and just watched him lap people and we were in one of his Focuses. So and we're laughing must things with 800, 900 horsepower. That's how good Jack is. So I think you'd be a really really cool guest to be on but Roush offers basically anything you want whether it's a parts play, whether it's a whole vehicle, whether it's taking a vehicle and upgrading it afterwards. If you're doing a truck if you want to go off road, they offer the off road accessories for that the off road suspension. Everybody wants to Roush to exhaust on their vehicle whether it be Mustang or truck so yeah, definitely definitely the way to go and they have a lot of dealerships all around the country to more so than anyone else in the in the aftermarket industry.Doug Sandler 15:34Geez, thanks for all the information and for Mustang community if you're not in the market right now for a crate engine, but you do want a good tumbler they do have a really nice cup on their website and Roushgear.com also they have great shirts and hats, and even if you can't play the part by having a crate engine dropped into your dropped into your classic ride. You certainly can play the part by wearing the the very nice t shirt as well.Doug Sandler 16:00Yeah, I agree. I agree. So let's move over to to membership a little bit. Tell me a little bit about what's going on in the in the club scene we didn't really have a lot of time to talk last time, specifically about about MOCSEM, but I really do want to find out, you know a little bit more about the whole membership idea. There's probably a ton of people in our community that that aren't part of any Mustang clubs and, you know, maybe share some of the advantages and some of the stories that you have going on with your regional club.Mike Rey 16:24Let me share a few of my favorite things really quickly as there's been four huge events. That, to me stand out more than any. I've done hundreds of hundreds with the club over the last 15 years. But one was when I was presented with the Lee Iacocca award at the Mustang Memory Show. And one of my best friends John Clor, you know, was the one who surprised me and presented it to me at the show. So there's only about 100 people in the world that have that award. It doesn't exist anymore. To the Mustang community that's basically the Mustang Hall of Fame, if you will. So very, very honored to have That and I was surprised at the muscle memory show and John was the one actually presented to me, which ironically, takes me to the second event. It was our 50th Heroes banquet so celebrating 50 years of Mustang in 2014. We did a heroes banquet here the weekend of our show, and I in return got to present John me and Dave Pericak presented John with his Lee Iacocca was at that event, but that event is still titled and labeled as the greatest 50th anniversary Mustang events in the world that ever happened. And that was here in Dearborn, Michigan, during 2014, and it was our club who hosted that and ran it we have 60 different heroes from Gale Halderman and Hal Sperlich and Edsel Ford to the current team, which was the Pericak team. We had everybody throughout those 50 years. We had about 60 different people know from clay modelers to engineers to marketing team to Vice President. Everybody was there and We we set them up in a horseshoe shaped design out in the lobby after the banquet and let them sign autographs for everybody and created a keepsake for everybody to take. And they went around and they were there to almost two in the morning, starting at 8pm signing autographs, that's how long and everybody wanted to be with them and taking pictures and hearing stories. And it was just an unforgettable event and probably our most proud event we've ever put on as a Car Club. So those are things that cool that you get to come and see as a as a member that you get to enjoy. Another one was another no other Car Club can say this is we did a our general meeting inside the Ford World Headquarters. I touched on this very briefly at the last interview, but at the Ford world headquarters auditorium where we had Henry Ford, our Edsel Ford, we had Mark Fields, we had Dave Pericak, we had the list goes on and on and on. We had everybody you could possibly think of at the time that was available. So that was really, really cool. And so yeah, really, really great. And then the last event that I want to mention that we've done that was really cool was literally just last week. Last Tuesday, and I mentioned this before, we had Dave Pericak as our special guest speaker at our general meeting, which was held at Gateway Classic Cars in Dearborn. And he surprised everybody and brought out a Mach-E in person, for everybody just sit in feel touch and ask questions about and explain the reason and the process, why the Mustang name was attached, why, you know, and so many opportunities are against that. You get to explain the reason behind that. And I think it opened up a lot of people's minds about seeing a change everybody's mind because still, a lot of people, including myself, don't think the Mustang name should have been attached to that kind of vehicle. But I do understand the reasoning. I've accepted it and I'm okay with it. And he basically agreed with that. David great analogy stating, you know, if you go to your favorite amusement park like Cedar Point or something when you're a kid and they bring in a new ride, you know, do you absolutely hate it and want to go to war over it or you just don't ride it? You don't I mean, it's just an addition to the fun, it's not replacing anything. So it's not like you came into the amusement park and replace your favorite ride. It's not replacing Mustang, it's just an addition to and given another outlet. And you got to understand if they don't build the electric vehicles, they can't build their other Mustang. So the marquee is enabling them to keep building the GT 500 is the GT 350s, the Mustang GT, without these electric vehicles are not going to be able to do that anymore by federal mandate. So this is a part of it, and why not make a fun little section of it, and giving this Mustang performers that was going to do and this horsepower and torque in that thing is insane.Doug Sandler 16:42And I think it would be great to have a conversation with I think, you know, Jimmy DensmoreMike Rey 20:55I just talked to him a couple times this weekend. Tell him what a great job he did on I'm his interview with you because I listened to that yesterday too. Yeah, I know. I've known Jimmy I met him through Gale Halderman. I think Jimmy came in a couple years ago and you know, was was doing the book on Gale And but yeah, cuz I know Gale, probably for the last seven or eight years now. And you know, and heard a lot of the stories. So a lot of the stories Jimmy was telling you were absolutely true and fun, because I've actually heard those from Gale's mouth himself as well. One of the things that Jimmy didn't get into was about those myths, the myths that he was talking about. The one myth is that Mustang was named after an airplane. And it was, it was named after the horse when we we've been visiting Gale for the last maybe 5,6,7 years. We go down to his museum in barn once a year with the club. And afterwards after everybody leaves me and John Clor usually sit with Gale for an hour or two and just hear stories from a man he tells us about the Lee Iacocca days and spurling and all that. And we asked him about the horse and the one of the first visits we went there. He said, yeah, it was absolutely named for horse not after a plane so everybody tells you that. Don't believe that because Did you ever see a plane in any rendition or any form met on a car on a badge or anything like that it was it was always animals. And it was definitely named after the horse. So that's the guy that was on the team that will know it. And it came from the horse's mouth, as we call it.Doug Sandler 22:11And pardon the pun, no pun intended, but there was a fun. So tell me a little bit more about just how how, you know, you have a lot of these regional clubs and a lot of the regional clubs don't quite have the pull that a club that would be in Southeast Michigan has. So what do you say to those that are either running or in clubs? I mean, what's some of the what's some of the formula for success when it comes to running a successful club?Mike Rey 22:34That's a perfect segue of exactly where I want to talk about next is in coming February 9 this year, we have a summit that we put together started about 10 years ago. For all other clubs that are welcome and any club business listening here would like to join us. Please send me a note in the next week. And, Doug, if you could share my email with them. That'd be great. February 9th, we invite all different club heads in the Ford and Mustang world to this summit to share best practices. things they may need help with things to cross promote for each other for events, get to know each other and see how we can help support each other's events and answer questions or give them different avenues of where they might, you know, like to feel comfortable with or to learn things from. And yes, we people say, you know, we're spoiled. Oh, you guys got it made because you're in Dearborn and I mentioned this before. No, we have to actually go out and do what we need to do to actually make things happen. But like, a couple years ago at our show, you just seen the the bullet that just sold at Mecum? Correct. So Sean's car. Sean's a good friend Sean is a Club member of ours. Sean brought the Bullit out. We had Craig Jackson bring the little red before it was restored and that was just unveiled last weekend. Little Red was there. The Bullit was there. The 10 million Mustang was there. Larry Shinoda, his prototype boss real to car and we have all those guys there. We had Henry Ford, the dueces car. They're all at our shows over different years and to have those kind of special cars is just absolutely insane to me. And like you said, they're all first generation cars. And you can't see those at any other show. After our show last year when we had most of those, John Clor got just bombarded by other clubs asking, how do we get all those cars at our show? is simple answer was you don't. Everything has to basically fall in line, and a lot of hard work behind it to get things lined up. And we are very fortunate to have Woodward now, the same weekend as our show. So a lot of muscle cars coming for Woodword, and we try to talk to those people to try to extend it another day. Now people say well, that's why you get 1000 plus cars at your show. That Woodword weekend only started in 2014. So from 1975 to 2014. We were not the same weekend as Woodward we were always the weekend before. And two of those shows before that weekend started. We hit over 1000 cars so and now you're out. Are you out in California? Correct? So you're very familiar with the Knott's Berry show that has been going on for many years.Knott's Berry has always been the number one one day largest Ford show in the country. Well Knott's is taking a breather now and trying to get you know some new things basically reinvented if you will, and they're going to they're going to come back shortly but I know they're going to be taking a year or two off. So currently right now we are the largest one day all Ford event in the entire country. And that's how it the Ford world headquarters every AugustDoug Sandler 25:26That's incredible. Yeah, I think that a lot of people are going to say hey, because of your location where you are in the country. It makes it quite easy, not easy, but it makes it a lot easier for you and I would say that hey there's a lot of there's a lot of excuses people could have for not building their club the right way or maybe finding the right mix of guests to come in. But I'll tell you there's a lot to be said about tenacity and and just kind of staying in the game and and promoting your club to those that are important. I have another show called The Nice Guys on Business podcast and we're about 1000 and some episodes in Which game afforded me the opportunity to put that kind of say, okay, that's running over its own steam to start this show and look until you start reaching out to guests that are in favor and guests that you really want to hear. You can't be shy about it, you got to sink your teeth in and make it makes it happen.Mike Rey 26:17You know, passion is a huge thing, you really can't teach it, you got to be born with it. But anybody who usually steps into the club lead and not i'm not saying everybody because there's definitely exceptions. But usually, if you're stepping up to that role, you got to have some passion behind you to want to do that. And the passion will take you a long way I can, I can definitely vouch for that. And so being a club leader, if I can speak as a leader to other club leaders is see where you can give the most benefits to your members. So one called might be very interested in racing, so try to put the best racing events together. And another one might be well we might like to be in a big car. So let's do that. Some people like to do road trips or overnight so you know focus on that where you can you know, cater to what their their wants are as many preserve your club. And that will go a long way. And then they're there, their word of mouth will actually, you know, expand your club, gain more interest and make things, you know, a little bit more exciting within the club and to actually keep gaining traction and build the club as well.Doug Sandler 27:12What are some definite don'ts? Some things that you have tried that you said, Oh, well, that didn't work. We kind of fell flat on their face to face with that one. Is there anything that's happened in your club?Mike Rey 27:21Yeah, well, you know, there's, here's, here's the thing right now, and not nothing we've done, but I've watched other clubs do it and these other clubs that, you know, I'm talking and I won't name names right now, but there's a couple clubs Now regarding this Mach-E. And I love both of them. I get along with both of them, but one of them has they've taken stances and one fully embracing it Once fully not and like you're not allowed in the club anymore. If you have a Mach-E. So the market is not welcomed in their club. And the other one is absolutely and they're getting. So for the people that are welcoming it are they're getting from the people who hate it against it, and then the people who are banning it the people who like it are against it. So one thing that I'm just trying to do what I've been putting out there is our club is not like that I am I, I don't want to, I don't hope it a word it wrong. But I don't want to be a dictatorship into a club, we're not going to force you to like something, we're not going to force you to hate something, everybody has their own opinion. And we're going to support it either way. But, you know, our club doesn't want to take a stance and to do that, it's just like politics anywhere else you go, you know, I mean, you're not going to say, this club is all republican or this club is all democratic, you know, you don't want to do anything like that. It just opens up so many different cans of worms. So for me, personally, is what can I do in the best interest of the club always and to make the members happy and to make them feel good, whether they agree with something or not, you know, I mean, so. Like I said, I've mentioned it many times, I don't think the Mustang name should be attached to Mach-E because it's been the hottest topic. And our club is actually one of the few clubs that actually has a small advantage. I think I told you this before too. It's like 60% in favor of the car 40% against, so most clubs are 80% against and 20% for it. You don't I mean, so But like I said, it's just that it's a topic now that's going on, but You know, it's created a lot of conversation within club heads, which is really, really good. But like I said, To each his own, anybody can do something like that. But no, I mean, it has nothing personal against me. I'm not going to let a name of a vehicle, ruin lifelong friendships over something like that.Doug Sandler 29:16I think that's, I think that's where it is very well. And again, we all have to get along here. No haters is a part of this. If people have differing opinions, that's okay. And just let them voice their opinion. I won't mention the club the the place that I was, but I was at this and somebody got up and he just started like preaching to the people that are there and not about this particular car, but about a subject that that we have, we've got to take a stance and I kept thinking, we don't have to take a stance. This is my first meeting here and you're really not even making me feel welcome. It wasn't about me, right? But I just felt so uncomfortable. Just the fact that he was taking everything so personally at this club meeting, everybody, we just got to relax a little bit, just chill out.Mike Rey 29:57And you know, Doug, I would really really, really hope you can Try to put it into your schedule to make it down to Mustang Memories this year because I think you could go live there with so many first generation owners to share about their experience to share their camaraderie with their their friends who are parked next to them and all that I just think you're you know, you see so much eye candy for miles I it would be fun and you get to meet so many great people from just being at the event.Doug Sandler 30:22I completely agree with the end. I'm trying to look up the date for that right now.Mike Rey 30:26August 16th, and it's at the Ford world headquarters in Dearborn, Michigan.Doug Sandler 30:29See if I can get my press pass all lined up for that.Mike Rey 30:32I got you covered on that. And then here's what the theme is that we're doing this year for that is 65 years of Thunderbird, 60 years of the Ford Falcon and 30 years of the Seven-Up Mustang which not too many people are aware of or are doing anything special for so we're celebrating 30 years of the Seven Up Fox Body Mustang at our event this year.Doug Sandler 30:51Wow. That's very cool. I enjoy the sound of the seven up Mustang. I wonder why I haven't heard of that.Mike Rey 30:57It's a 1990 Mustang was a special edition that they were going to do for NCAA March Madness back in 1990. And the the promo fell through somehow, but the cars were already made. So they were at the dealers there a dark green car with white interior, you know, seven up colors basically, if you will. And, and there was, you know, only a certain amount made, and they were only made for that one year. And like I said it was very, very limited. So they're called the Seven Up Mustang and very, very cool. And they have their own groups and their own clubs, but to do a national event for them. This is the first one that I know of right now that we're celebrating 30 years this coming year for themDoug Sandler 31:33Nice. Love it. And I'm looking at pictures of that right now online as well. It's a very cool looking car Fox Body 5.0 Are they all convertibles? Did you say Are they all convertible?Mike Rey 31:41All convertibles. And you know, Doug, I don't know if you were gonna get to this or ask this. But I was listening to Jimmy's interview yesterday, and you asked about if you could be at a table with five people.Doug Sandler 31:51Hey, that was my next question. You can you can take me there though. Let's do so let me let's set up the question properly. So I give I'm gonna get Mike the ability to choose five guests alive or dead to have a dinner or a conversation with a talking Ford Mustangs? Who would he pick? And I'm I'm really curious because you've named so many of those people that were on not only Jimmy's list but on many of our guests list that have come on so you're already friends with many of them. You might not have to pick them who would you pick?Mike Rey 32:18Well, the funny thing is, is I really truly have seven and six of them I know personally, I'd have met one was passed away and I never got to me and that my biggest regret in the industry but so for my list is Gale Halderman, Hal Sperlich, John Clor, Dave Pericak, Amy Boylan, Carroll Shelby, and Jack Roush.Doug Sandler 32:35You know we got a really crowded table. Should we go? Should we go buffet style for this? Are we still in French service?Mike Rey 32:41Well, let me let me tell you the reasoning behind each of them. So all right, John, to me is the most well known in my opinion, Mustang expert there is in the entire world. That's my opinion may not be in fact or other people may not agree but in my opinion, he is the most knowledgeable man on the Ford Mustang there is In the world. Dave Pericak has the biggest and baddest things that are coming out now been, like I said, had the greatest launches with Ford on the current day. Hal Sperlich and Gale Halderman had the greatest launches of the original Mustang, the first gen and the greatest way. And so they can actually share a lot of that. Amy Boylan, to me is the most successful woman in Mustang history. And she could share her female input of if you will, and and how to make businesses work and how to make things special and exciting. Carroll Shelby, obviously the absolute legend, he's the one I never did get a chance to meet and my biggest regret in life is I had one chance to meet them and I couldn't make it to the event. And I never got to meet Carroll. And then I also had the honor of working with Jack Roush and Steve Saleen. But Jack Roush is just so amazing and his ideas. Jack is quiet. Just so super quiet, but very observant, observant and some as a tack. So he's listening. He's taking everything in and when Jack needs to talk, he goes again. what he's talking about and his ideas always usually turned into gold and still to this day the number one winning NASCAR owner in historyDoug Sandler 34:08That is great and what a great list and we'll give you the will give you the latitude to have an extra couple people at the table I'm thinking that if you send out the invitations maybe not all of them would be available but I'm hoping that they would all be available at the same time how what a cool dinner that would beMike Rey 34:40I'm sure I can get John to have Ford pick up that expense if we can hit up we can get those guys together.Doug Sandler 34:44Yeah, hey, listen if it if it could be my personal mission to put all seven of well, I can't put Carroll in the room. Well, I don't know if I can. I know some people that know you. I mean, you know all these people, you'd be able to invite them so maybe I'm going to use you as my liaison. To him I think we could. How cool would it be if we were able to actually put this together?Mike Rey 35:04Oh, absolutely. You know what, and I me and John can absolutely kind of try to work on this. Now Hal Sperlich is very tough but I've got to meet Hale on four or five different occasions. the saddest time was actually at the Lee Iacocca funeral, this is not a thing. So, we were contacted by Ford to provide first generation Mustangs for the Lee Iacocca funeral to be on display our club one so and when I walked in the door the first two people I see were Hal Sperlich and Gale Halderman so I got to talk to both of them and great length there as well. But yeah, those guys are great another guy who never comes out of hiding as John Colletti but he would be a special guest for your show as well and I think we can try to reach out to him and see if he doesn't he doesn't like coming out in person. But you might do a phone call.Doug Sandler 35:44I heard the same thing about about how because when I when I was talking to to Jimmy who wrote the book with Gale's cousin he was saying that, that how was it is a tough guy to get it to get ahold of now Dale, Gail is is is a little bit a little bit easier but but not quite the same with with Hal so we'd have a challenge with him but I'm up for the challenge.Mike Rey 36:16I am as well and I'm trying to actually get them to come speak at a meeting this year. So me and John are already gonna be talking to him. So let me see what we can do. If we can get him on the call. That would be an epic podcast if I could ever haveDoug Sandler 36:26I'll tell you Mike I not only do I enjoy having you as a guest but I just enjoy your positive attitude and the world needs more positivity like like you're spreading So thank you again for sharing not only just a great message but sharing you know your your fun stories on the on the show as well. Thanks for being here. One more time.Mike Rey 36:42Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's literally been an honor and I'm gonna just keep getting you some names and some contacts and we want to blow this thing up for you.Doug Sandler 36:50Hey, man, I would appreciate that so very much. You know, I'm here to my day gig might be going away. So I have no problem doing this full time. No problem at all. Give a plug one more time for, for that special collector's thing that you're working on the collector's thing, sorry, the Ford Treasured Collectibles. You gotta shorten that title, man, that's do long.Mike Rey 37:11Here's the funny thing right now. So on board, we submitted the book for final approval before we went to print and Ford has requested a few edits. And we're adding a new chapter in that they wanted more stuff in there. So we're going to be adding that. And so if anybody is listening, that actually already ordered one, an email will be going out in probably the next three to four weeks. People that have already ordered the shipment is going to start early summer. But if you haven't ordered one yet, you still can, you can contact me directly on the link that Doug is providing. And we can still get you included into the book and have your picture included for everyone to see for the rest of history. And we can actually still get you in and still get you into the discounted price. So everything happens for a reason they say and so with the edits and bought us some more time so it's actually cool because we get to market them for the next three four months though.Doug Sandler 37:57Yeah, we'll make sure we put a link again in the show notes for you. TreasuredCollectibles.us but the site right now is not accepting orders so just send an email directly to Mike I'll put his email directly in the in the show notes as as well thank you again, Mike for being on the show and sharing all of your amazing stories and your message with us today.Mike Rey 38:17Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. And we'll talk again soonDoug Sandler 38:20Ford Mustang community if you have an idea for the show or you think you'd make a great guest send an email directly to me Doug@turnkeypodcast.com, we'll put a link in the show notes for that as well. Thanks for listening. Keep it safe, keep it rolling and keep it on the road. Until next time.Transcribed by https://otter.ai