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Dr. Deb Muth 00:00:09 Hi there, how are you? Bob Miller 00:00:10 Excellent! Pedaling as fast as humanly possible, but doing okay. Dr. Deb Muth 00:00:14 Good, good. Well, I’m looking forward to our conversation today. This should be amazing. Bob Miller 00:00:20 Yeah, it should be a lot of fun. Dr. Deb Muth 00:00:22 Yeah, anything that’s off-limits for you in, our conversation? Bob Miller 00:00:28 No. Dr. Deb Muth 00:00:29 Okay, anything you want me to make sure we cover for you? Bob Miller 00:00:33 Well, I mean, is it okay if we put a little plug-in for our software? Dr. Deb Muth 00:00:35 Absolutely. Bob Miller 00:00:36 Yeah. Dr. Deb Muth 00:00:37 Absolutely. Bob Miller 00:00:36 Yeah. Dr. Deb Muth 00:00:37 Absolutely. Bob Miller 00:00:38 Hey, can we… can we do a screen share? Yes, we can. Yeah, because I want to show you some maps, and… Dr. Deb Muth 00:00:43 Okay. Things like that, yeah, so… Perfect. So just let me know when you want to do screen share. Bob Miller 00:00:48 Okay. Dr. Deb Muth 00:00:49 And yeah, feel free to plug your software wherever you want to. Bob Miller 00:00:53 Okay, well, good. Let me pull up a, a slide for that, and give me one second, I just want to shut the door to my office to get the noise down. Dr. Deb Muth 00:01:01 No worries. Bob Miller 00:01:16 And, how should I refer to you? Dr. Debb? Dr. Muth, what do you like? Dr. Deb Muth 00:01:18 Dr. Deb is great, or Deb, either way, I’m pretty informal, so… Bob Miller 00:01:22 Yeah, and… Bob is fine for me. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. Why people feel like they need this, son. Special name, it’s like, seriously. Dr. Deb Muth 00:01:33 Right? I agree. Bob Miller 00:01:35 When I work with my clients, it’s like, Dr. Millison, just, just bop, just, just bop. Dr. Deb Muth 00:01:41 Yep, that’s how I am, too. Just call me Deb, it’s good. Dr. Deb Muth 00:01:44 They feel a little awkward with that, you know? They’re not used to that, but… Bob Miller 00:01:48 Alright. And you’re a naturopath, medical doctor. Dr. Deb Muth 00:01:52 A nastropathic doctor and a nurse practitioner. Oh, nice. Yeah, so I got the best of both worlds, right? Bob Miller 00:01:58 Yeah, damn. Okay. Alright, so here we go… There we go. Alright, so I got that ready, and then I will do a, I will do a screen share. I think you’re gonna really, appreciate what we’ve come up with. We’ve come up with the concept of, Cellular CPR. Dr. Deb Muth 00:02:23 Oh, nice! Bob Miller 00:02:24 And that is, construct the cell membrane, Protect the cell membrane. And restore it if it’s damaged. Dr. Deb Muth 00:02:32 Love that. Bob Miller 00:02:34 I love that. Yeah, so that’s what we’re focusing on, and then how, You know, we want to get to the point that, you know, most people think of genetics, they think of, like, 23andMe or Ancestry. Dr. Deb Muth 00:02:44 Yeah. Bob Miller 00:02:45 And then you have the professional geneticists who are looking at, you know, odd things that could create a disease. We’re looking at functional genomics. Dr. Deb Muth 00:02:54 Which is so much better. Bob Miller 00:02:56 Yeah. Are you familiar with what we do here, or… Dr. Deb Muth 00:02:58 A little bit, a little bit. So, it’ll be new to me, too, so I’m excited. Bob Miller 00:03:03 And how much time do we have? Dr. Deb Muth 00:03:04 We have an hour, give or take a little bit on either side. Do you have a hard stop anywhere? Bob Miller 00:03:10 No, no, I put a, I moved my clients around, and I don’t have anybody till, 3.30, so we’re good. Okay. Dr. Deb Muth 00:03:16 Perfect. Alright. Bob Miller 00:03:18 It’s like we’re getting started early as well, so… Dr. Deb Muth 00:03:19 Yeah, we’re getting started a little bit early, so that’s good. Bob Miller 00:03:22 Yeah, I just got my office cleaned up, so… Dr. Deb Muth 00:03:23 Okay, good. All right, are you all set to get started? Bob Miller 00:03:28 I’m good to go, my friend. Dr. Deb Muth 00:03:29 I’m gonna just record a little intro and a little bit of a, hook for people, and then we’ll get started. I’ll ask you to kind of tell us a little bit about yourself, and then we’ll just take this conversation wherever it’s supposed to go. Bob Miller 00:03:39 Okay, you got it. Dr. Deb Muth 00:03:40 Alright, sounds good. So what if the reason you’re not healing isn’t your diet, your supplements, or your labs, but it’s actually your genes? Dr. Bob Miller is uncovering how genetic variants, when combined with modern toxins, explain why some of us stay sick no matter what we try. Today, we’re talking genetic pathways, detox blocks, and the new science every wellness warrior needs to know. Welcome back to Let’s Talk Wellness Now, the show where we uncover the root causes of chronic illness, exploring cutting-edge regenerative medicine, and empower you to heal from the inside out. I’m Dr. Deb, your medical detective, and today, our guest, Dr. Bob Miller, is a true pioneer in functional genomics. He’s a board-certified traditional naturopath and the founder of Neutrogenetic Research Institute. And he’s the leading groundbreaking research on how genetic variants influence chronic illness, inflammation, and detoxification. His work has been recognized on international stages, uncovering links between genetic expression and conditions like Lyme disease, mast cell activation, or MCAS, and mitochondrial dysfunction. I’m so excited to talk to Dr. Bob today. He is gonna reveal some things that even I don’t know about, so I’m excited to learn alongside of you guys. So… Dr. Bob, let’s get started. Tell us a little bit about yourself, and kind of how you got on this journey. Bob Miller 00:05:04 Well, that’s, that’s interesting. I was sort of like a mid-career coming to the natural health field, because in my early 30s, I found myself with a severe case of ulcerative colitis. Bob Miller 00:05:15 And I was in the hospital for 21 days. probably within hours of death, pleading to death. And they told me I’ve got one option, and that is cut out the colon and wear a bag. Didn’t sound like a lot of fun. Dr. Deb Muth 00:05:27 Not an option I would want. Bob Miller 00:05:29 So, you know, the medical folks wasn’t real happy with me, but I said, yeah, I’d like to explore some alternative things.Never thinking that I’d get into this field, and then I just, you know, worked with some herbalists and things that I found absolutely fascinating. So, that’s how I got into this around 30 years ago. And, haven’t looked back since, and just having a… having a blast as we now move into how our genetics impacts things. So, that’s what we’re gonna… that’s what we’re gonna talk about today. Dr. Deb Muth 00:05:58 I’m excited to talk about this genetic thing. When you started over 30 years ago, what kind of patience and problems first inspired you to dig deeper into that root cause healing and kind of get into the genetic piece of it? Bob Miller 00:06:10 Sure. Well, you know, as a… now, I’m in a part of the country called Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, where there’s a lot of Amish and Mennonite, and they gravitate towards these things.So, this is their first thing to do, and that doesn’t work, then they’ll go other routes. So, you know, back then, we just saw typical, you know, a little tired, constipation. You know, a little bit of fatigue, arthritis, those kind of things. But things have changed dramatically over the years, as people are now getting more chronically sick. You know, it’s worse than it’s ever been. And what we’re finding is the, the culprits Primarily is mold exposure and Lyme disease. When people get those two together, they’re just… it’s an inflammatory cascade that nobody can seem to unravel. So that’s where we spend a lot of our time. And we’re also spending a lot of time looking at mental health, like ADD, ADHD. And, we give… this year I’ll be speaking at three autism conferences. And we can dig into that a little bit as to why we think we’re seeing such a dramatic increase. And aside from autism, that used to be 1 out of 1,000, now it’s 1 out of 33, or 23. You know, we’re also seeing dramatic increases in ADD, ADHD. People are stressed out. And today, I think we’ll have the time to actually go through and show how environmental factors combine with genetics to cause that to happen. So we’ll… we should have a fun visit here today. And today, I think we’ll have the time to actually go through and show how environmental factors combine with genetics to cause that to happen. So we’ll… we should have a fun visit here today. Dr. Deb Muth 00:07:37 This should be a fun visit. We can cover lots of topics. I am so excited. So, you founded Nutri Genetic Research Institute in 2015. What did you hope to accomplish, and what kind of surprised you in your findings so far about that? Bob Miller 00:07:51 Well, you know, let’s back up at what, you know, genetics is used for. Everybody’s familiar with 23andMe and Ancestry that, you know, tells you where your ancestors came from. Then you have your professional geneticists. I mean, these are people with a degree in genetics. And they’ll look for, you know, very odd sort of things that are prone to relate to a disease. So there are disease-related genetics. Well, in functional, we don’t look at either of those. We look at For example, how you’re breaking down your fats and utilizing them. How you’re recycling your glutathione. How you might be handling your iron. And none of those are disease-causing on their own.And none of those are disease-causing on their own. But when they pile up on you, and then combine that with environmental factors, that’s when things start to go south on us. So, that’s what we’re doing, we’re looking at patterns. And our first foray into this was, we did studies on Lyme disease. And our first foray into this was, we did studies on Lyme disease. So, we looked at, like, I think 50 people with Lyme disease. We looked at their genome. So, we looked at, like, I think 50 people with Lyme disease. We looked at their genome. And we found patterns that were more evident in those with Lyme. Now, this doesn’t… these genetics don’t mean you get Lyme, it just means if you get Lyme, you react worse to it. And we found patterns that were more evident in those with Lyme. Now, this doesn’t… these genetics don’t mean you get Lyme, it just means if you get Lyme, you react worse to it. So, as you know, some people get Lyme, they go on a round of antibiotics, and they’re done. So, as you know, some people get Lyme, they go on a round of antibiotics, and they’re done. Others have a little more struggle, and then others are struggling terribly for years. So there’s an old adage of genetics loads the gun, environment pulls the trigger. Dr. Deb Muth 00:09:14 Yeah, that is so true, and I think when we’re talking about Lyme and mold and things like that, we forget sometimes that our genetics can predispose us to be more sensitive to those things, and if we have genetic pathways where we don’t clear things properly, it’s harder for us to get them out of the body. And then you add on that whole rain barrel effect that we’ve always used as a functional medicine term, right? If the barrel’s half full, you’re okay. If it’s full, and now it’s spilling over, it’s a bigger problem. Have you guys found, too, that some of these environmental things actually are changing the genetics of people, or how they’re processing their own genetics? Bob Miller 00:09:53 Well, let’s go back to, Genetics 101. But we’ll go back a little bit further. So, what an interesting mechanism, what a miracle the body is. Bob Miller 00:10:03 Fats, carbohydrates, proteins, drink water, breathe air, expose the sunlight, and somehow everything gets made. I mean, when you just step back and think about that, it’s like, It’s pretty darn amazing. Dr. Deb Muth 00:10:15 I always tell women, you know, the fact that we get pregnant and we have healthy pregnancies and births is a miracle, because if we had to try to control that, that wouldn’t work so well. Bob Miller 00:10:25 Right. Well, that’s another miracle. These microscopic sperm and egg, human being, 9 months later, it’s like. But even inside of us. We are making our hair, our skin, our nails, our blood vessels, our ATP, our energy, it’s all being created. Well, that gets created by enzymes. So, enzymes take one substance, combine it with something else, and make something new. Then another enzyme comes along and does the same thing. Your DNA is the instructions on how to make the enzymes. So, when we are conceived. If it’s a, if it’s a female, of course, it’s the XX, the two chromosomes. You know, we’ve… everybody’s seen those… the genetics that… Listed pair. So, if it’s a female, the father donated the X enzyme. And the mother has no choice but to give the eggs, so that’s female. If the father donates the Y, you have a male that’s in chromosome number 1. Then 2 through 23 is the rest of the instructions on how to make enzymes. So, what can happen? We can get what are called SNPs, single nucleotide polymorphisms. And SNPs just mean that the instructions to make the enzyme’s not quite as good. So, if one parent gives a SNP on the making of an enzyme, The enzyme’s fine. It works. But, general rule of thumb, It may only work at 70-80% of efficiency. Now, a good analogy is think of an 8-cylinder and a 6-cylinder car. If parents give you good information, that’s like having an 8-cylinder car. If one parent gives you that snip, it’s like having a 6-cylinder car. Now, is a 6-cylinder car a fine car? Sure. It’ll get you from point A to point B, but it’s just going to have the power of an 8-cylinder. Then if both parents give you a SNP on the same enzyme, it may be 30-40%, and that’s like having a 4-cylinder car. Sits in the driveway, looks the same, puts gas in it, everything. But if you’ve got a 4-cylinder car. Probably not a good idea to go cross-country pulling a trailer behind you up and down mountains. Dr. Deb Muth 00:12:29 This is true. Bob Miller 00:12:32 So… We can get an 8-cylinder, 6-cylinder, or 4-cylinder enzyme. Now, if it’s not under a lot of stress, if that 4-cylinder car is just taking you to the bank and the grocery store. It’s just as good as an 8-cylinder car. But if you gotta pull that trailer, and there’s a lot of stress on it, being mountains, it’s gonna struggle. Now, there’s one other little caveat to this, and that is some genetic mutations are gain-of-function. They actually work faster. Now, we have enzymes that do all kinds of things. We have enzymes that make and recycle our antioxidants, but we also have enzymes that make inflammation. No, that’s a good thing, because if we get a virus or bacteria, if you didn’t make inflammation to kill it, well, we’d all die of infection. So, you know, we tend to think of free radicals as bad, antioxidants as good. They both play an important role. But interestingly, some of the major enzymes that make inflammation, they can be overactive. They can be turbocharged. And when they’re stimulated by environmental toxins, they overreact. Bob Miller 00:13:40 And therein lies the problem. When they overreact, we have a problem. Bob Miller 00:13:46 So, if we have genes that overreact when stimulated. And then the enzymes that take care of inflammation are underactive. Then you’re gonna be more inflamed. You know, the majority of people that, you know, come for functional medicine Or naturopathic help, or… Inflammation that they can’t seem to get under control. Dr. Deb Muth 00:14:06 Right. Bob Miller 00:14:07 And we will be, you know, during this hour, we’re going to look at some of the pathways that make that happen. So, what we can do then, we can’t change our genetics. When you’re conceived, that’s the hand you’re dealt. When your life would be over, if someone would take some tissue and measure, it’d be exactly the same as conception. Does it change. Bob Miller 00:14:28 The enzyme’s ability to do its job may be compromised. Because remember I said there’s a, the enzyme takes a cofactor. So an enzyme takes substance A, cofactor, make substance B. Well, if that cofactor’s not there, the enzyme’s not going to work either. So, you could have an 8-cylinder car, and if there’s no gas in it, it’s not going anywhere. So… It’s the strength of the enzyme, it’s the cofactor to do the A to B conversion. And that’s what we’re going to get into. So, many people say, well, where did these SNPs come from? Nobody knows for sure. Sometimes they’re what’s just called de novo, when the sperm and egg go together, the instructions get mixed up a little bit. We do believe a lot of it came from a long time ago, when we were almost wiped out by sexually transmitted diseases. And those STDs were altering the genes when the conception, in other words, when the sperm went into the egg, the STDs were interfering. And causing the problem, so… I often joke, if you want to blame somebody. Blame your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents for, being a bit promiscuous, so… Dr. Deb Muth 00:15:31 Yeah, for being… having a little too much fun, right? Bob Miller 00:15:35 So, we don’t know for sure, but, you know, there are some that, But most of the SNPs that we get inherit from our parents. So, if you look at a child. And you look at the SNPs. 99.9% of the time, it came from one of the parents. Dr. Deb Muth 00:15:50 In identical twins, do they have the exact same identical makeup? Bob Miller 00:15:54 Yep, Dr. Deb Muth 00:15:56 But not in fraternal twins, correct? Bob Miller 00:15:59 No, no, those could be different, Jeff. Dr. Deb Muth 00:16:00 It could be different because they have different sacs, they’re not sharing that same genetic makeup. Bob Miller 00:16:04 Yeah, so keep in mind, both your mother and your father have, you know, the two And so you get one from one parent, one from another. Dr. Deb Muth 00:16:13 So… Bob Miller 00:16:14 Interesting situation. I had, 3, 3 boys. And, we were looking at an enzyme related to breaking down oxalates. Now, the mother and father each had one SNP, and that’s called heterozygous. Three boys, and they all come together, they’re Amish boys, they’re a lot of fun. And I looked at their genomes, and the one boy didn’t have any SNPs at all. And one had won. And the other one had two. Dr. Deb Muth 00:16:41 Interesting. Bob Miller 00:16:42 So, we don’t quite know how these things get handed off, but with the parents each having one, you could have a child with none, one, or two. So, the one, his ability to break down oxalates, which is fine. The other one was slightly impaired, and the other one was dramatically impaired. So, you can have 3 children, and it all depends what the parents have. Now, if a parent has a homozygous, or 2 copies. And the other parent has nothing. Every child will have one. Okay. If both parents are homozygous, that they both have two, Every child will have two. Dr. Deb Muth 00:17:19 too. Bob Miller 00:17:20 Yes, so that’s the way it works, but, you know, but it’s somewhat rare that both parents are homozygous on an enzyme, but it can happen. Dr. Deb Muth 00:17:27 Do we think that infections today, like Lyme disease or mold exposure, things like that, if the parent, the woman, primarily, I’m thinking, is pregnant, and she actively has these infections. Can those infections affect the genetics, kind of like a past sexual transmission did where we thought back in the day? Bob Miller 00:17:47 Yeah, I… I mean, I’m not that much of a geneticist to answer that for sure, but my thought would be no, that at conception, the pattern’s made. Dr. Deb Muth 00:17:55 Okay. And then that’s… that’s the hand you’re dealt. Bob Miller 00:17:58 Yeah. So, I tell people we have good news and bad news. The good news is we can compensate for the weakness. The bad news is we can compensate for the weakness. Dr. Deb Muth 00:18:09 That is so very true. Bob Miller 00:18:11 Yeah, we can’t, because I often get asked, so we’ll do some things now, and we’ll check my genes again, and they’ll be better. It’s like, nope. Dr. Deb Muth 00:18:18 Oh, – – Bob Miller 00:18:19 You gotta play the hands you’re dealt, so… Dr. Deb Muth 00:18:21 That’s right. Bob Miller 00:18:22 You can test your genetics… if you’re looking at the same enzyme, you can test it every year. It’s not gonna change. It’s like the blueprint. Dr. Deb Muth 00:18:30 It’s good and bad, right? It’s the one test you only have to do once in your lifetime. Bob Miller 00:18:34 No, unless, you know, like, our. Dr. Deb Muth 00:18:36 All the time. Bob Miller 00:18:37 Yeah, now our test looks at, called the Functional Genomic Analysis Test of your genomic Resource. We look at 220,000 steps. Dr. Deb Muth 00:18:46 Wow, that’s a lot. Bob Miller 00:18:47 That’s not all of them. Dr. Deb Muth 00:18:49 Right. Bob Miller 00:18:50 So, maybe in the next year, we’re gonna come out with our third version of the chip. And then, if someone wants to get those new things that weren’t on it, they’d have to repeat. But whatever we measured is gonna stay the same. Dr. Deb Muth 00:19:03 That’s a lot of SNPs to look at. Bob Miller 00:19:05 Keeps us busy. Dr. Deb Muth 00:19:06 But there’s still, but there’s still SNPs that we. Bob Miller 00:19:09 That we’d like to have that we don’t have, so… Bob Miller 00:19:11 We started out with version 1 on our genetic test, then we worked with version 2, and we’re already compiling a list of what version 3 would look like. So if somebody has our version 2, And we’re saying, you know what, it’d be nice if we could see these, well, then you’d repeat, but it won’t change what you already know, so… Dr. Deb Muth 00:19:29 Got it, got it. So, when you started out, and you started looking at the research of Lyme disease and chronic infections, which detox pathways are most important for people who struggle with those conditions? Bob Miller 00:19:43 Okay. You know what might make sense as we do a screen share, and I’ll actually show you the pathway. Does that make sense? Bob Miller 00:19:48 Alright, so… let’s see if I… let me just press the share… Dr. Deb Muth 00:19:52 Yep, you should just be able to press share. Bob Miller 00:19:54 And… number 2. Okay. Are we seeing the screen there? Bob Miller 00:20:01 Okay. Dr. Deb Muth 00:20:02 So, this is a map that we made. Bob Miller 00:20:05 And by the way, this is not… All-inclusive of all the things we look at, but we believe this is a core issue. So, where we’re going to start here, there’s something called the microglia. And the microglia are glial cells. They’re in the brain and the central nervous system. And they’re very interesting little creatures, because most of the time, and this is just a drawing of what they sort of look like. Most of the time, they’re in what’s called the M2 anti-inflammatory mood. What that means, these little guys pick up dirt, debris, Recycle them. Turns on an enzyme called interleukin-10 that’s anti-inflammatory. And just kind of does general housekeeping. And just kind of does general housekeeping. However, when a trigger comes along. However, when a trigger comes along. They… it’s the same glial cell, but it moves over to a very pro-inflammatory enzyme. A pro-inflammatory glial cell. And it triggers these 3 enzymes, Actually, these four. That are pro-inflammatory. Tumor necrosis vector alpha, Interleukin-6. NF Kappa B, Inos. Now, these create inflammation. So you might think, well, why is that good? Well, if you have some foreign invader, virus, bacteria coming in, parasite. If you didn’t have these guys coming to the rescue, you would just die of infection. So, these guys are your friend unless they’re your worst enemy. Because TNFA, and we’ll show you when we actually do a demo account, TNFA can be overactive. So, in other words, it over-responds. Interleukin-6 can be overactive. And if Kappa-B can be overactive. The INOS, and I’ll explain each of these as we go through a demo, can be overactive. Now, what that means is, you’re very good at killing virus and bacteria. But this is where autoimmune disease comes in, and just inflammatory conditions. Now, this is just speculation, but we think what happened is, as you know. Thousands of years ago, we didn’t have refrigeration, we didn’t have sewer, we didn’t have pure water, and we didn’t have antibiotics. So, if you made it to 40, you were an old-timer, because everybody was dying of infection. So, what we believe happened is, by what’s called natural selection, Having these overactive. A thousand years ago was to your advantage. Dr. Deb Muth 00:22:31 Hmm. Bob Miller 00:22:32 But now… We have pure water, we have refrigeration, we have sewers, we have antibiotics. But now we have environmental factors that are stimulating them. Now it’s to our disadvantage. And we’ll talk about that a little bit as it relates to the hemochromatosis genes and maybe the G6PD. Dr. Deb Muth 00:22:48 Yep. Bob Miller 00:22:49 Now, why are we becoming so inflamed? Let’s look at the triggers. Now, one of my, favorite expressions is. I was born all the way back in 1954. Dr. Deb Muth 00:23:01 And it was a different world back then. Bob Miller 00:23:05 These are some of the triggers. And we’ll get into these, but right now, high fructose corn syrup, And the high-fat diet. High fructose corn syrup only came about in 1968. So now we’re being exposed to high fructose corn syrup. Then… we didn’t have these, these viruses like COVID. Dr. Deb Muth 00:23:26 Yeah. Bob Miller 00:23:27 Now, there’s now pretty strong evidence that COVID Was actually, you know, made as a gain of function. It’s debated, and I’m not taking an opinion on it, but there’s some people who believe Lyme disease was also a part of experimentation. Dr. Deb Muth 00:23:40 Go. Bob Miller 00:23:41 Then we have molds, and it appears as though mold is getting stronger. you know, 20 years ago, when I was seeing folks, mold wasn’t on the radar. I would say 7 out of the 10 folks we speak to today have mold problems. Yeah, 20 years ago, we talked more about mold allergy being an issue versus mold toxicity being an issue. Right. So… I know some folks are, you know, speculating what’s happening, but one of the theories out there is that EMF is strengthening mold. I don’t know if you ever heard that theory, and I don’t… Dr. Deb Muth 00:24:13 I have. Bob Miller 00:24:14 I’m not claiming it’s true, but it’s an interesting theory. Then even, you know, your black mold from water-damaged buildings. Then our air pollution is getting worse. We’re getting more toxic metals. Dr. Deb Muth 00:24:26 You know, if we have a… Bob Miller 00:24:27 You know, we’re gonna look back someday and say, what were we thinking, smearing aluminum into our armpits? The, what were we doing putting mercury in our teeth? Then, you know, glyphosate. When I was a kid, there was no glyphosate. So, all of these herbicides and pesticides. Polychlorinated biphenols, And then EMF. So, we love our cell phones, you know, and I think unless you, or in the middle of the desert, or down in a cave, you’re being exposed to EMF somewhere. So, you know, we have our cell phones with us, we have, We have Wi-Fi, the towers are everywhere. And we don’t know long-term, but we may find that this can… this creates some inflammation. And I don’t know if you get any folks, but do you have any folks that have… are they EMF sensitive? Dr. Deb Muth 00:25:16 Oh yeah, we have a whole bunch of them. Bob Miller 00:25:18 Yeah, and then if you have any TBIs, So, plenty of things here. that will stimulate into the microglia, M1. Now, you could say, well. We’re all pretty much exposed to the same thing. Why do some people get hit harder than others? So here’s where we’re gonna start. There’s an enzyme called Nrf2 and RF2. And Nrf2 is the enzyme that senses when there’s inflammation. And turns on hundreds of anti-inflammatory enzymes. We’ll show when we do the demo, you can have genetic weakness on NERF2. And NERF2 inhibits and slows down microglia M1. supports M2. Now, if it’s not complicated enough, there’s an enzyme called KEEP1. And KEEP1 inhibits NRF2. And you can actually have gain of function on keep 1, that makes Keap 1 stronger. So… A lot of the people who land on my doorstep So… A lot of the people who land on my doorstep Both parents gave a mutation on KEEP1, making it overactive. Both parents gave a mutation on KEEP1, making it overactive. Dr. Deb Muth 00:26:31 Hmm. Dr. Deb Muth 00:26:31 Hmm. Bob Miller 00:26:32 Suppressing Nrf2, nerve 2 might be weak. So, nobody’s putting the brakes on, M1. And by the same token, Nerve 2 supports M2. Then there’s a process called mTOR and autophagy. mTOR stands for mammalian tard of rapamycin, the growth of new cells. And then autophagy, taking our dead cells and recycling them. We need a balance between the two of them. If we didn’t have mTOR, the sperm and the egg would never become the baby, the baby would never become the adult, we wouldn’t make new cells. But our cells are constantly, you know, the old cells dying off. Autophagy is where we take that debris from the cell and recycle it, just like a farmer Plows the crop under at the end of the year. The dead plant then becomes the fuel for the spring, your dead cell becomes the fuel for the spring, and that’s autophagy. So we’re gonna look back someday and say, what were we thinking? We give our animals growth hormones so they get fatter faster. Oh my. So, we consume those animals, and inventory runs faster. Now, for anybody who’s, You know, maybe above 40, 45 years old. Think back when you were 12, and what did girls look like? They were primarily flat-chested little girls. Now they look like 16-year-olds. Because environmentally, we’re jacking up mTOR. So, mTOR stimulates microglia M1, suppresses microglia M2. Probably 80% of the folks we visit with. This is the part of the problem. NRF2 is weak. mTOR is strong. Environmental factors come along. And this guy gets carried away. He doesn’t do that burst and move back. Stays here. We’re calling that How environmental factors create a locked-in, pro-inflammatory. and neurotoxic phenotype. In other words, once it starts, it just keeps… Feeding upon itself. Alright, so what happens now when microglia is overactive. it triggers these 3 enzymes, TNFA, N of kappa B, And interleukin-6. Each one of these can have genetics that make them run stronger. Then it stimulates an enzyme called NLRP3, Which makes what are called inflammasomes. Now, guess what inflammasomes can be? Your best friend or your worst enemy? Because they will, if you’ve got, again, a virus or bacteria, or possibly even some bad cells in the body. They will zap them. Well, that’s good. Unless it’s overactive. Unless it’s overactive. And then what it does, through interleukin-1 beta, makes excess glutamate. And then what it does, through interleukin-1 beta, makes excess glutamate. Anxiety, gut inflammation, OCD, ADD, autism. And, you know, glutamate, we’ll talk about that a little bit, but glutamate makes you intelligent, highly motivated go-getter. but can also be excitatory. And then, look what it does. Let’s see, do I have the drawing tool here? Yes, I do. Okay. So, it comes down through here, Makes the glutamate. Comes back up through here. through the ADORA 2A enzyme, Then we’ve got a feedback loop that feeds upon itself. Then, through interleukin-18, we make histamine. and mast cells. And then through histamine receptor site number 1, we come back and spin it. And now you’ve just got this spinning feedback loop. So, the glutamate will make you anxious, the histamine will give you allergies and make you anxious. And you’re allergic to everything, and you’re feeling horrible. Now, it doesn’t end there, Dr. Dad. It then goes on to make something called gast dermins that creates pyroptosis, where it actually starts punching a hole in the cell membrane. And you’re only going to be as healthy as your cells are. Just a little background. You know, we’re made up of trillions of cells, and each one of them has what’s called a lipid bilayer, made from lipids, which comes from fats. And you’re only going to be as healthy as those membranes are. So that’s why we coined an interesting phrase. Cellular CPR. Construct the cell. Protect the cell. And restore the cell membrane. And we believe that’s going to be revolutionary in the functional medicine world. So… It’s not hard to figure out that if you start punching holes in the cell membrane, that’s not a good thing, okay? Bob Miller 00:31:22 Now… There’s an interesting molecule called NAD. Thicotide adenoside dinucleotide. And anybody who’s in the, you know, listening to the health podcasts and things, they’re… They’re, they’re learning about NAD. And I’m going to show you a chart later, all the good things that NAD does, but For the most part, it helps what’s called sirtuins. And sirtuins are quite interesting. If anybody’s looking at longevity. The sirtuins is where they’re looking at.Because sirtuins turn on good things. Turn off bad things. And I’ll show some charts on that later. So for right here, this sirtuin uses NAD, to slow down NF-kappa-B. CERT 2 uses NAD to slow down an ORP3. So, if we’ve got genetic weakness on these, or we don’t have enough NAD, We don’t hold this pathway back. Make sense? Dr. Deb Muth 00:32:24 Yeah, makes perfect sense. Bob Miller 00:32:25 Now, I’ll show this a little bit later. So, people are like, oh, well, I’m gonna start taking some NAD. Dr. Deb Muth 00:32:31 Right. Bob Miller 00:32:32 And there’s functional doctors who give NAD intravenous. It was just this morning, I was talking to a woman who said, Oh my gosh. I went and got intravenous NAD, and it took me a month to recover from that. Dr. Deb Muth 00:32:45 Hmm. Bob Miller 00:32:46 what happens is, and I’ll show this in a little more detail, there’s an enzyme called CD38, that’s stimulated by NF-kappa-B. And it takes NAD, To make intracellular calcium. that stimulates NLRP3 and actually makes things worse. So, if we have this guy upregulated, and I’ll show a chart what does that. taking NAD will make you worse. Again, when I go into the software, I’ll show you that whole pathway, so… I would encourage people, you know, just don’t go out and start taking massive amounts of NAD, you know, stick your toe in the water, see how you do. Because everything you’ve heard about, how good it is, is true, unless this guy says, oh, thank you very much, let me make more inflammation. Now, this might be part of our innate immune system, that if we have some pathogen that’s gonna kill us. By golly, we want that to happen. But if this is happening by environmental factors, Then it’s detrimental. So the immune system that protected us a thousand years ago now might be turning on us because of the environmental factors that we showed earlier. All right. Then there’s an enzyme called PARP that’s NAD-dependent, and that actually repairs strain breaks in your DNA. Now, the next thing that happens… is there’s an enzyme called NADPH oxidase that gets stimulated. and something called INOS. Now, I’m sure most people know about nitric oxide. It’s a gas that dilates your blood vessels. That’s why sometimes they’ll even give people drugs, nitroglycerin, to boost their nitric oxide. That’s why people are doing beetroots and other things to boost their nitric oxide. But there’s an OS3 enzyme that makes the nitric oxide that’s good for blood flow. But there’s an INOS That makes nitric oxide to kill pathogens. probably might be the third or fourth time I’ve said this. That’s a good thing, unless it isn’t. So, if it’s killing some pathogen, great. It was just misfiring. it combines… With superoxide that’s made by this enzyme, and makes something called peroxynitrite, which is one nasty free radical that chews you up and spits you out. So, the NOx enzyme, NADPH oxidase, uses NADPH, To make this free radical called superoxide. If we have time, we’ll get into it. NADPH is what your body needs to recycle your antioxidants.So, I coined the phrase, the NADPH steel. Where the NOX enzyme takes this very important NADPH, And rather than being useful, makes superoxide. Now, again, is that fine if you’ve got some bacteria to kill? Of course. But if it’s just chronically running, it’s just making all this chronic inflammation. Then it makes something called hydrogen peroxide. And we need to clear hydrogen peroxide by 3 enzymes, catalase, thyroid reduction. And glutathione peroxidase. If we have genetic issues on here, or we don’t have the cofactors. There’s something called the Fenton reaction, discovered in 1895 by Dr. Fenton. Where hydrogen peroxide combines with iron to make what are called hydroxyl radicals. And guess what they do? They create lipid peroxides, That damages your cell membranes. Now, again, the body’s pretty darn amazing. We have glutathione, And here’s where your body’s taking glutathione and recycling it. But look who’s needed to recycle it. NADPH. So, if this guy up here is chewing it up, We don’t recycle our glutathione. And then an enzyme called glufon peroxidase 4, Takes this damaged lipid and repairs it. So, here we’ve got this protecting, we want to protect it by not having this happen. But then we also need this guy to do the restoration. So, there’s a lot that can go wrong in here, Dr. Deb. Dr. Deb Muth 00:37:07 There’s a lot that could go wrong. And I can imagine some of my listeners are thinking that lipid peroxidase, is that the same thing as what they’re thinking of when we talk about lipids and cholesterol? Is that the same process that’s happening there? Bob Miller 00:37:22 Well, no, no, the lipids can be used to make cholesterol, but here we’re talking about where they’re going to build the cell membrane. And they’re being… and they’re being, destroyed. If anybody would like to see a visual representation of this, just go on YouTube. And type in, ferrooptosis Animation. cool little video, it’s about 3 minutes long, and it shows the lipids coming over, being oxidized, and now GPX4 fixes them, so… YouTube, Pharaoptosis Animation, cute little video. It’s just that really… Shows vividly what we’re… what we’re talking about here. Now, this is… Dr. Deb Muth 00:37:59 And so this is very common, too. Like, a lot of people do hydrogen peroxide IVs. Dr. Deb Muth 00:38:04 And so, if somebody doesn’t know their genetics, they could have a problem with doing those, just like they could doing the NADHIVs, correct? Bob Miller 00:38:13 Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I’ve talked to so many, you know, of course, the hydrogen peroxide kills pathogens. I mean, that’s what it does. So… but I’ve spoken to so many people that said. I had one client that said they’ve never been the same after having one hydrogen peroxide infusion. Dr. Deb Muth 00:38:30 Interesting. Bob Miller 00:38:31 Yeah. So… it can be… I see why people use it, because it. Bob Miller 00:38:36 pathogens, But on the other hand. And now’s a good time to speak about… I don’t have it on here, but there’s a, there’s an enzyme called the HFE gene. And that is what causes you to absorb iron. And there’s mutations in it that cause something called hemochromatosis. Were you overabsorb iron? Now, true hemochromatosis is when both parents give you a mutation. But there’s now growing evidence even a heterozygous can cause a little bit more iron absorption, not to the human chromatosis point, but overabsorption. So, if you overabsorb iron, And you have too much hydrogen peroxide that’s not cleared, All kinds of inflammation. Now, what’s happened is sometimes this inflammation Will damage the red blood cells. And some well-meaning doctor says, oh, you need some iron. And they take iron and it makes it worse. So, can’t tell you how many people I’ve said, you’ve got the overabsorption of iron, and they say, well, that can’t be right, because I’m low in iron. Well, that could be because it’s being chewed up here. Dr. Deb Muth 00:39:40 Sure. GPX1 and TXN turn it into, to water. The, catalase turns it into water and oxygen. Dr. Deb Muth 00:39:58 Now, I see a lot of my clients who have mutations or SNPs on that GPX gene, on that glutathione gene. And they really struggle to clear a lot of their toxins. Bob Miller 00:40:12 Sure. Dr. Deb Muth 00:40:14 Yeah, absolutely. Well, GPX4. Bob Miller 00:40:18 is what, repairs, but you can see GPX1 Is what uses glutathione. To turn hydrogen peroxide. So, but it all depends upon having enough glutathione. Dr. Deb Muth 00:40:30 Yeah. Bob Miller 00:40:31 Well, guess who controls making a glutathione? Dr. Deb Muth 00:40:34 Nerf 2. Bob Miller 00:40:37 So, if you have a keep one weakness, or strength to two… I’m sorry, keep one is too strong. Nrf2 is too weak. You don’t make glutathione. So, when a lot of people do that, it’s like, well, I’m gonna take glutathione. Dr. Deb Muth 00:40:51 Right. Bob Miller 00:40:52 And some do great, and some do poorly. You know, because… and I’ll show this on one of the other charts. You can see here that the, The glutathione has to be recycled. And if we don’t recycle it, it actually turns into superoxide free radical. So… NADPH are the cofactors, For taking the oxidi… here’s oxidized glutathione, here’s reduced. So, this is a good glutathione. After it does its job, you can see it becomes oxidized.We need to recycle it. Well, if we have weakness on the enzyme that does that, or a weakness in Nrf2, or not enough NADPH. The oxidized glutathione never gets recycled. So, I’ve talked to a lot of people who said, oh, glutathione made me so sick, and say, well. Dr. Deb Muth 00:41:43 Yeah. Bob Miller 00:41:44 You need it, but you need to recycle it. Dr. Deb Muth 00:41:46 Can you speak for just a brief moment, too, about MTHFR? That is a very popular gene, it’s all over social media as the major gene, but can you speak to a little bit about that, and how that fits into this whole process of things? Because it is just such a small piece. Dr. Deb Muth 00:42:04 understanding genetics. Bob Miller 00:42:06 Yeah, to be honest, it drives me nuts. Dr. Deb Muth 00:42:08 Me too. Bob Miller 00:42:11 Alright, so… You know, there are people on social media I won’t say what I think, I’ll be kind. But… But the, And, you know, they might mean well. But they talk about, if you have MTHFR and COMT and PEMT, that’s… oh my goodness, that’s horrible, and we’ll fix that for you, and you’ll be fine. Bob Miller 00:42:36 it just irritates me to no end. And it really could get anybody who’s doing this legitimately in trouble. I mean, I’m afraid someday, you know, there might be some cracking down on this kind of nonsense. Now, to answer your question about MTHFR. Dr. Deb Muth 00:42:51 I mean, it really is, but I’ll tell you what, why don’t we hold that thought until I go to another map and I can actually… Okay. Bob Miller 00:42:56 But the real… the cliff notes is the MTHFR puts a methyl group on your folate, which is needed, but it has gotten way, way, way too much attention. And people learn they have MTHFR, and they start taking a multivitamin with methylfolate, then they take a B vitamin with methylfolate. Dr. Deb Muth 00:43:13 And they’re pushing it too hard. Bob Miller 00:43:15 Yeah. So I can’t tell you how many people I’ve helped by saying, stop it. Dr. Deb Muth 00:43:20 Yeah, take less of it. Bob Miller 00:43:21 Take less of it, yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, there’s a… If somebody, say, ranked the enzymes at their level of importance, MTHFR might be 40 or 50 on a scale of 100, you know. Keep one Nerf two. big deals. Dr. Deb Muth 00:43:40 deals. Bob Miller 00:43:41 NQO1 that I didn’t even talk about yet, NQO1, takes your, NA… your NAD goes into NADH, To make electrons for the electron transport chain. you need NQ01 to bring that back. If that’s not working, and I’ll show you on the NAD map how disastrous that can be. Now, the next piece is here, and I think You know, if you talk to any school teachers and say, if you’ve taught for more than 10 years, how are the kids today? Every one of them says, more ADD, ADHD, more autism. Just look at human beings, we’ve never been so agitated. You know, everybody, and it might be a social media thing, but people take a position on something, and if anybody doesn’t share that position, they view them as the enemy. Dr. Deb Muth 00:44:29 And it’s kind of scary what’s happening to us. Bob Miller 00:44:33 So, we can’t agree to disagree anymore. We see anybody who has a differing opinion as the enemy. And, you know, there was… there’s people that didn’t have Christmas dinners together, because they had political differences, like… Dr. Deb Muth 00:44:44 Excuse me. Bob Miller 00:44:45 can’t you put your political differences aside to have Christmas together, you know? Dr. Deb Muth 00:44:49 Right? Bob Miller 00:44:50 become that, you know, no matter what your position is, and I’m not saying anyone’s right or wrong, I’m just saying. You know, in the old days, they used to say that the Republicans and Democrats in Congress would argue policy and then go have dinner together. And now everybody’s all up in arms, angry. Dr. Deb Muth 00:45:05 Yeah. Bob Miller 00:45:06 So… There’s likely multiple reasons for that. But let me show you one of them. That, you know, to what degree this is… very important, we don’t know, but I think We’re beginning to believe this is very important. So, there’s something… there’s a neurotransmitter called GABA. And God buys the don’t worry, relax, be happy. Chill. Okay. Dr. Deb Muth 00:45:31 Nobody has enough of that anymore. Bob Miller 00:45:33 Well, yeah, you’ll be surprised what I’m gonna show you. So, let me see if I can find a, Let me see if I can find the right slide here. Let me look for it here. So, there’s something called a GABA receptor site. And here you can see… This is a neuron, and this is where you, The neuron normally is excitatory. However, there’s normally low chloride in the neuron. Dr. Deb Muth 00:46:09 Hmm. Bob Miller 00:46:10 So, GABA itself is neither relaxing. For excitatory, all GABA does, it opens up what’s called a chloride channel. And then chloride, which has a negative charge, will flow into the neuron. Follow me there? Dr. Deb Muth 00:46:26 Yep. Bob Miller 00:46:27 And as it does, it changes this from a positive charge to a negative charge, And it’s relaxing. and inhibitory. Dr. Deb Muth 00:46:34 Hmm. Bob Miller 00:46:36 Now, on the other hand, there’s enzymes called NKCC1, That will push chloride in. and KCC2 that will bring chlor… oops and bring chloride out. And then there’s a sodium channel. And, sodium has a positive charge. And glutamate will push that in. So, as long as this is happening. And GABA says, receptor sites, open, chloride goes in, Chill. However, If NKCC1 Pushes extra chloride in. KCC2 doesn’t pull it out. and GABA hits the receptor site, the GABA comes flowing out, Sodium comes in, And now it’s excitatory. So Gabba didn’t change. GABA just opened the receptor site, that’s all it does. Dr. Deb Muth 00:47:33 Yeah. Bob Miller 00:47:34 But it’s the chloride balance that’s going to determine whether this is relaxing or not. Now, these are the things that go along with when they lose that KCC2 or gain NKCC1. Pain and sensitivity, burning electrical, neuropathic pain. Normal touch hurts. Sound and light sensitivity. Tinnitus can flare. Headaches and migraines. Seizure tendency. Body jolts. Spasticity, cramps, stiffness, startle reflex. Trouble falling asleep, non-restorative sleep. Anxiety, stress, reactivity, that’s what we have now. Hyperarousal, panic-like surges, irritability, racing thoughts. Brain fog, slowed processing, working memory slip-ups. Mental fatigue. Episodes of racing hearts, sweaty palms, guts on edge. Those are all the things that happen when this GABA switch occurs. Now, here’s what happens, and this is what I’m going to be presenting at an autism conference. When you have a newborn, they need that NKCC dominant to develop. By early childhood, it should… or, sorry, early adulthood. we should move over to the KCC dominant, that’s the taking the chloride out. Nice-looking 25-year-old boys, functioning very well. However, when we get microglia M1 upregulated. Because of environmental toxins, processed foods, Tylenol, aluminum. they stay in NKCC1 dominant, and there’s ADD, ADHD, Autism, the whole spectrum. because… They’ve not moved over to the… They’ve not moved over to the KCC2. And again, this is caused by… Environmental factors. Stimulating the microglia. And then, interleukin-1, interleukin-18 weakens KCC2, interleukin-1 beta, Strengthens NKCC1. high chloride. We open up the chloride channel, In Rebell Excitatory. So, I think when, When the pediatricians get ahold of this, they’re going to be very excited to know that This could be why we’re seeing such a rise, and not just autism, but ADD, ADHD, anxiety, the whole shit mess. Dr. Deb Muth 00:49:58 thing. Bob Miller 00:49:59 Yeah, so… and you can see NF-kappa-B stimulates that. These stimulate it, and I think that’s why everyone’s getting so anxious. Now, there’s a little bit more to it, and we’ll get into this when we look at some of the maps, but… The, the glutamate, Which is excitatory. will stimulate the NMDA receptor, make more glutamate, And glutamate will inhibit KCC2. And then we also need an astrocyte To, take both ammonia And glutamate, and… Turn them back into glutamine. And I’m going to talk to you a little bit about arachidenic acid, and if we have too much arachidenic acid. or TNFA is upregulated, that doesn’t happen. Ammonia goes up, and there may be multiple reasons for this, but this is a reason why some of the autistic kids do flapping. Dr. Deb Muth 00:50:49 Hmm. Bob Miller 00:50:50 Because they’re not clearing their ammonia. And you can tell if somebody has high ammonia by… they get that old person smell, you know. Dr. Deb Muth 00:51:00 Yup. Bob Miller 00:51:01 your vehicle cycle’s not taking out the, the ammonia. Now, last pathway here. There’s growing interest in mast cell activation. So, back here, we talked about peroxynitride. And that will stimulate mast cells, and those are white blood cells that are your best friend, unless they’re your worst enemy. Then it’ll make histamine. And there’s enzymes called histidine decarboxylase that’ll make more. Dr. Deb Muth 00:51:28 I’m sure everybody’s heard of DAO, the enzyme that degrades histamine. Yep. Bob Miller 00:51:31 We can have genetic weakness, we don’t make that. There’s an enzyme called histamine and methyltransferase, That, That breaks down the histamine. Then if we don’t do that, it’ll get stuck in the histamine receptor site. And then it’ll make something called, renin. Which will cause angiotensinogen to turn into angiotensin. One, that turns into angiotensin II,And that’s where people make aldosterone, where they’ll get the, The swollen ankles and high blood pressure. But interestingly, there’s an enzyme called ACE2, that takes this guy and turns it into angiotensin 1-7, Which is anti-inflammatory and also inhibits… TNFA. Now, you can have weakness on ACE2, But… and anybody’s saying, that sounds familiar? Dr. Deb Muth 00:52:25 That’s where COVID comes in, using ACE2. Bob Miller 00:52:28 And now we just found there’s literature that if you get COVID long enough, it can actually make ACE2 not be able to work as well. So look what it does. It comes down here, stimulates the NADPH oxidase, More superoxide. More peroxynitrite. And we’re on a cycle here. We’ve actually named this the Home Cycle Hypothesis, the proposed feed-forward loop. That just keeps feeding on itself. All being caused by… Primarily, The environmental factors. But hitting those who have genetic weakness the hardest. That’s why. Dr. Deb Muth 00:53:08 To the people. Bob Miller 00:53:09 Don’t live in a moldy house. One person is sick as can be, and the other person says, well, you must be imagining things, because I don’t feel anything. Dr. Deb Muth Yeah. Same thing with long haul, right? Two people can both get sick, one gets sick and never seems to recover, and somebody else gets sick, and they have absolutely no problems with it at all. Bob Miller 00:53:30 Sure. Well, think about it, if you get COVID, and ACE2 is weak, and some of this other stuff is going on. This thing just starts feeding upon itself. Dr. Deb Muth 00:53:38 Keep creating more inflammation, more complications, nothing’s calming down. Bob Miller 00:53:43 Yeah. Now, you, you ask about, MTHFR. So, this is the, this is the, the software called Functional Genomic Analysis. There’s a demo report we have. So, let’s talk a little bit about, MTHFR. So, we actually have a map called a methylation map. Now, what happens is, when you do your saliva test, you, you know, you spit, you put some saliva. in a collection kit, goes to a lab, takes out the DNA data, sends it to the computer, and now you can actually see it visually. Okay. So, it’s gonna take a second for this, data to load up, it’s, and each of these Circles, each of these ovals, is an enzyme. And the data gets loaded up to see where it is. So, until it gets loaded up here, I didn’t preload this. There it goes. So… The primary thing about methylation is There’s a nasty substance called homocysteine that, if it’s too high, can really be detrimental. The body takes methylfolate, and combines with methyl B12, To bring this back up to methionine. And then through the MAT genes, we make SAMI, S-adml methionine. Which is involved in so many processes. Then after it does its thing, it turns back into homocysteine. And this thing needs to keep spinning around. That’s why, you know, it’s a good idea to keep homocysteine at, do you have a number that you’d like? 7, 8? What do you like for a number? Dr. Deb Muth 00:55:24 Yeah, I like mine below 7. Bob Miller 00:55:26 Yeah. So if the homocysteine goes too high. It, caused all kinds of problems. So, here’s where you ask about the MTHFR. So, here you can see on this individual. I click on MTHFR, and you can see it comes up here, here’s the C677. And you can see here where it says, variants. I’ll… I’ll draw in case somebody’s having a hard time seeing that. So, you can see there’s nothing in there. That means there’s no genetic mutations. If one parent would have given a mutation, there’d be a 1. If both parents did, there’d be a 2. Now, here’s why Yes, methylation is important, I’m not saying it isn’t important, but look at this MTHFRC677. In my software. Only 42.5% of the population does not have a mutation. 44.7% have won. 12.9 have 2. So, this isn’t some rare, oh my god, I’m gonna die… Kind of thing, yeah. Dr. Deb Muth 00:56:27 Right. Bob Miller 00:56:28 So, And then what happens is that, and again, I’m not dismissing methylation, I… we could do a whole show on methylation. Bob Miller 00:56:36 get it. But I think that what people are doing is they’re, they’re learning about MTHFR, they get it measured, they panic. They start taking massive amounts of methylfolate, which many times is to their detriment. Dr. Deb Muth 00:56:50 Well, it’s… and isn’t it true, too, with MTHFR, like, you have to also look at MTR, MTRR, and the more we stack up of those, the more complicated than MTHFR can be. It’s not… it’s not as simple as just saying MTHFR 677 versus 1298. It’s more complex than that, kind of like what you’ve already shown with some of the other things. There’s more to it than just that one little sliver. Bob Miller 00:57:17 Oh, sure, well, let’s take a look. So, remember I said there’s a cofactor? One of the cofactors is called FAD. Just a Bob Miller observation, that’s all. But when people have trouble with their riboflavin and they don’t have enough FAD, They’re doing much worse than people who have just a C677. So, right here, you could have perfect C677th. And if you don’t have the cofactor, it’s not gonna work, okay? Dr. Deb Muth 00:57:48 And as you said, there’s an MTR enzyme. Bob Miller 00:57:51 that takes methylfolate and methyl B12, to spin it around. So, here on this individual. here’s your… here’s your B vitamins, or I’m sorry, your B12s. There’s an enzyme called TCN1 that takes it from the stomach into the blood. Then there’s other enzymes that take it from the blood into the tissue. And if you’re having trouble here. Well, then you’re not going to have this working, so… Even if you don’t have MTHFR, And you have MTR, like this, no, I’m sorry, this person doesn’t. But they have the MTRR, and then they don’t have enough B12, this isn’t gonna work, aside from that. And then there’s a middle pathway. And then there’s enzymes called the MAT1. they take the methionine to the salmon. If that’s not working, we stick… we get stuck in methionine. So, it’s, it’s not just an MTHFR. And then, one of the things that people forget about. is through these CBS enzymes and CTH, We make cysteine, which is needed to make glutathione. The master antioxidant. So, it really is that… I call it the, The 3D chess game played underwater. Dr. Deb Muth 00:59:07 It really is. I mean, I see people who have CVS, COMT, glutathione, MGHFR genes. And some of them function just fine. Like, they have Like, I look at this person and I’m like, oh my gosh, I don’t know how they’re functioning because they’re double mutated on so many pathways, but yet they don’t have a lot of symptoms, they don’t have a lot of complications. Somehow their body has figured out a way to adapt to what it has so it can stay alive and it can function at a high functioning level. Bob Miller 00:59:36 Yeah, and they may be, you know, eating right? Yeah. Staying out of a moldy house. reducing stress. So, it’s diet, it’s stress, it’s genetics, environmental factors. So, yeah, we can’t just say somebody’s gonna be good or somebody’s gonna be bad. You know, some people get scared, oh, I got all these, it’s like, well… Bob Miller 00:59:56 Are you living in a moldy house? You know, and if you live in a moldy house and your glucuronidation pathway doesn’t do well, or if you’re, you know, a smoker, or you’re constantly eating junk food, I mean, all. Bob Miller 01:00:07 things come together. Although, you know, when we focus on genetics, we’re well aware that this is just a piece of it. You know, you could have identical twins, Genetically, and if one… Is exposed to mold and smokes and drinks and stressed out. They’re gonna be a whole lot sicker than their sibling. Bob Miller 01:00:28 Yep. Dr. Deb Muth 01:00:29 Yeah, it’s that concept of taking twins, and one gets raced with one family, and one gets raced with another family, and they don’t have the same… problems that… that each other have, you know? It’s a very unique situation, we don’t think about that enough. Bob Miller 01:00:44 Alright, so again, genetics loads the gun, environment pulls the trigger. So, if you’ve got a loaded gun, but you don’t have the triggers, you’re okay. Dr. Deb Muth 01:00:53 Yeah. Bob Miller 01:00:54 Yeah. So, remember I said I was going to talk about NAD? So, here’s NAD, and what it does, it turns into NADH. And what NADH does, it, Comes down this pathway, what’s called the electron transport chain. And that makes your ATP, that’s your energy. So, if this wasn’t working, we wouldn’t be alive, because we wouldn’t have energy. So it donates an electron, that’s why it’s called electron transport chain. So, we need NAD, To make this, to make the energy. But remember I said that NQ01, this would probably be, like, on my top 10 list of… Bob Miller 01:01:36 Much more important than MTHFR. This one takes NADH back to NAD. If we’re stuck over here, We’re low in this NAD+, But what happens is, NQO1 also provides CoQ10. And CoQ10 Is what’s needed for the electron transport chain to flow. So if we get too many electrons up here. And they don’t turn them into energy. They make a nasty free radical called superoxide. Okay. Now, NAD plus also makes NADPH, And that is needed. Remember I said we need to recycle our antioxidants. So, if we have a problem with FAD from riboflavin. Yeah, we don’t have enough NADPH, Glutathione’s not getting recycled, and you’re gonna be inflamed. And you take glutathione, you’ll feel worse. There’s another enzyme called thimoredoxin. Same thing, needs NADPH and FAD. And same way with your nitric oxide, there’s an enzyme called NOS3, That makes the nitric oxide that dilates your blood vessels. And if we don’t have enough NADPH or fat, You’re gonna make superoxide. Rather than nitric oxide. Now, remember

Today we're slowly walking through the calling of Matthew. Jesus saw Matthew at the tax collector's booth; we have to understand some of tax collector culture to grasp why Matthew would have had a negative reputation amongst his people. He's basically an IRS agent working in collaboration with the Roman empire to extort money from his own people. So yeah, he wasn't liked. Yet Jesus calls him anyway. What did Jesus see in him? What did Jesus recognize that he hadn't yet recognized about himself? Jesus is always doing stuff like this because apparently, this is how grace works. Grace sees something in people before it fully exists. Grace recognizes the person you can become before you can see the person you can become. So let's talk about the booth, which is more than just a piece of furniture. What does it represent? Safety. Security. Predictability. Identity. And yet, he leaves it behind. Why? Who knows? But the call of Jesus into something new was stronger than the comfort he's known in his booth. We all have booths. Some of us are sitting in them now. The booth of bitterness. Of cynicism. Of Certainty. Of other peoples' expectations of us. Of our past wounds or failures. All kinds of booths. Here's the thing about booths: they can become so familiar that they begin to feel like home. Even when they shrink our souls and keep us from becoming the person we were made to be. Jesus says, "Follow me, I've got something better in store for you." Then the story gets interesting. He's at Matthew's home eating with tax collectors and sinners. This makes the religious people nervous. Who you eat with reveals who your people are. And Jesus keeps surprising people with who he eats with. He doesn't just preach grace, he practices it. Makes it visible. So the religious people question him. In response, he says, "It isn't the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick." Here's what's funny. No one questions a doctor for spending time in the hospital. Jesus being with these people doesn't mean he's a failure as a rabbi, it shows his purpose. Then he says the thing about God desiring mercy, not sacrifice. He's saying that when religion gets disconnected from compassion, it loses its heart. It stops looking like and revealing God. Then he says the thing about calling not the righteous, but the sinners. What's the difference between righteous people and sinners? The sinners know they're in need of healing. The righteous KNOW they DON'T need healing, which, of course, is the thing that makes them sick. This is an invitation to move toward transformation. The righteous don't want transformation because they don't think they need it. But the sick...they notice that Matthew doesn't stay in his booth. He leaves it behind and is transformed. Then he eventually writes it down. He's transformed and helps the generations that follow find healing, too. He becomes a witness. Because that's what grace does. Speaker: Aaron Vis Scripture: Matthew 9:9-13 http://bible.com/events/49620456

Makes you wonder if you have any pending bets made hahaGood Stuffers: The Cornerstone Sweets on Facebook/InstagramAnd of course, for more good stuff go to https://linktr.ee/leezyentertainment

AA principals Rock!Makes for better life.

You've heard of Nerd Clusters. What about SweetTart Fusions? What about Nerd GOONERS?! What about a movie where a deer gets killed but makes a weird sound? What about us apologizing to each other for our previous episode. Makes you think, huh? Music/SFX: If you like our sounds, sign up for ONE FREE MONTH on us at Epidemic Sound! Over 30,000 songs: http://share.epidemicsound.com/n96pc Follow The Valleyfolk across the digital globe: http://twitter.com/TheValleyfolk http://instagram.com/TheValleyfolk http://facebook.com/TheValleyfolk Follow the group on their personal socials: Joe Bereta: http://twitter.com/JoeBereta http://instagram.com/joebereta Elliott Morgan: http://twitter.com/elliottcmorgan http://instagram.com/elliottmorgan Steve Zaragoza: http://twitter.com/stevezaragoza http://instagram.com/stevezaragoza http://twitch.tv/elliottmorgan don't look it up

Alejandro Cabrera Muñoz, co-founder and CEO of Green Eagle Solutions, returns to discuss automating 70 GW of renewable assets and why operators are self-operating their fleets. Reach out to sales@greeneaglesolutions.com to learn more! Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTube, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining light on wind energy’s brightest innovators. This is the progress powering tomorrow Allen Hall: Alejandro, welcome back to the program.  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Thank you so much, Allen. It’s a pleasure to be here.  Allen Hall: Well, so last time we talked, you had so much happening at Green Eagle, and it is, uh, amazing to watch the progress there. You’ve been around for quite a while now. You started, what, in 2011 working on SCADA systems. Uh, uh, there’s been a lot of evolution since then. Walk me through, like, the process where you thought, “Hey, there’s a business here.”  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Of course. Uh, we actually started officially back in 2012. It’s been a, quite a, of a long journey to, to get here. Uh, yeah, we started, uh, back, back then. We say it’s a whole new world, right? If we look backwards, like, almost 15 years. Makes me, makes me feel, like, extremely [00:01:00] old. Uh, but ne- nevertheless, um, yeah, back then we were trying to, to cover, like, a lot of issues that were based on OEM SCADAs, which by the way, we still are dealing with. But, but that, that was starting point. It was, um- It was, uh, based on understanding that the, the renewable energy industry is so complex. Every wind farm, every solar plant has different issues, different systems. Even, even the same models from the same manufacturer sometimes have complete different systems, which complicates everything. So it was very exciting to, to start our careers in a, in an industry where nothing is standard and where everyone is looking for something that is standard. So that’s, that’s where we fit in. Um, yeah, and in these years, we, we started basically creating the f- the foundations, uh, uh, on top of, uh, SCADA systems. [00:02:00] But as soon as we had that, those foundations, we realized that this sector is not gonna evolve, uh, it’s gonna cope up with the complexity, uh, of the technical complexity, market volatility, regulatory compliance. That’s not gonna be solved by just having more SCADAs. So we created a layer of automation in place, which is basically what we’ve been, um, evolving in the last 10 years now, um, with the, with the mindset and with the goal that every wind turbine should be running autonomously without having to have people behind it, uh, supervising and taking control of it. Allen Hall: Yeah, and that’s a great founding idea, but that has grown from an idea to you’re automating, what, 40 gigawatts of renewable assets right now?  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Oh, we’re actually now connected to over 70 gigawatts.  Allen Hall: That’s amazing. Alejandro, that’s incredible.  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: And all of them are different.  Allen Hall: Sure. So that, that’s a combination– 70 gigawatts is a combination of wind and solar and anything else? Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Yes. [00:03:00] Well, actually, one of the, one of the main, um, needs that we try to cover from day one is to be able to connect to all, um, asset classes. So we understand that, um, the challenge of operating a large portfolio for our customers, um, can only be solved if we have the ability to connect to all type of asset classes. So we can have to connect to wind turbines, inverters, trackers, substations, um, energy meters, you name it. You– we have to connect to every single asset class, um, because what’s important is how you manage that data on top of that and how you react on the anomalies.  Allen Hall: Right. Because I think a lot of operators are now considering taking your model, the Green Eagle model of s-self-operating, but they need that help, they need that insight into the operation of a solar farm or a wind farm or, or any of those assets, renewable assets, ensure those inverter-driven assets. You’re, you’re seeing– I, I think we’re seeing the same thing, which is a lot of operators decide to [00:04:00] leave full service agreements globally, and what do you think is driving that now? Uh, is it a financial decision? Is it a performance decision, or is it both?  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: I think there are many factors, but I think the main driver is the financial aspects of it. I think when you, when you delegate the operations to a third-party, uh, entity They are gonna optimize their services to whatever service level agreement or availability they are committed to. And for that reason, you’re never gonna get– effectively, you’re never gonna get the extra mile. You’re never gonna get any extra from there. Um, and that’s okay when the market is– has great conditions and everything w- is going well. But we are seeing how in the last years we have, uh, a lot of market volatility, negative pricing. Everything is becoming more and more complex, so many projects are actually under stake financially. And I think that’s, um, that’s pressuring everyone to look for opportunities to squeeze their assets a little bit more or a little bit better, I would say.[00:05:00] Um, and part of that is to take operations in-house so you at least you have the opportunity to, to do, um, a better job, uh, let’s say.  Allen Hall: Yeah, and part of what we’re seeing is, at least in the United States and, and globally now, I think it’s, there’s more action globally than there has been on mergers and acquisitions. So an operator that has historically had a particular OEM in wind, you know, say it’s Vestas or Siemens or GE, whoever, Nordex, it could be any of them. Uh, when they acquire another competitor or another farm, they’re bringing in a f- a wind turbine they probably don’t know much about. And, and that’s a huge problem. And, and there’s not a lot of resources for them to grab hold of. Uh, that’s one of the marketplaces you’re trying to fill right now, right?  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Of course. Uh, as I mentioned before, if something describes our sector is that nothing is standard, despite everyone is seeking standardization of everything, right? Uh, but nothing is standard for, [00:06:00] for– and that, that’s the reality. So the first thing when, when you have a portfolio and you are incorporating new assets into it, you need, um, a solution that is able to connect to all type of assets, right? Um, w-we call our solution a three-in-one solution because first of all, it acts as a second level SCADA, so you can connect everything there, uh, everything there, and you have access to all the data across all your assets. Then we have the SCADA automation layer, and then we have the data analysis layer on top of that. Okay. But let’s focus on the operations, which was, uh, your question, right? So you have a new bunch of assets. Sometimes you don’t have any documentation whatsoever, but these are Gamesas, Nordex, a bunch of them from different years. Um, the first thing that we provide is a second level SCADA, so you can connect to all of those. But We have, uh, something that we believe is very unique. So what we provide to our [00:07:00] customers is ability to automate all these assets autonomously. And what that gives you, it’s, um, set of data that can be analyzed, and we can learn from what’s working, what’s not working, beyond what the manufacturer’s gonna tell you to do, right? So we have thousands of General Electric turbines connected to our software, for instance. Um, we know what works, what doesn’t works, uh, what are the faults that can be resetted remotely, what are the ones that are not, what is the success ratio of those resets, ’cause that’s a metric that nobody else has unless you have automation in place. Uh, but we can actually understand, is it working? Is it not working? Is it creating fatigue for no reason to these turbines? So what– we have all this, this, uh, un- this knowledge and this, um, knowhow, uh, for all these models. Um- I believe one of the main, um, value that we provide to our customers is, is not only the, the solution itself, but it’s also the [00:08:00] ability to be somehow prescriptive. It’s, it’s not that we’re gonna know more about how to operate the assets than our customers, but, uh, we have a sense of what’s the benchmark, right? So I, I– And that benchmark is very, very useful for them as well.  Allen Hall: So th- that’s part of getting to scale, and 70 gigawatts is a, a lot of scale, where you have seen a number of turbines in different places operating in different environments and performing at different levels. That’s unique, right? That gives you insight into really what’s happening to a turbine or a solar asset globally and also locally. For a lot of operators that just happen to acquire or, or, or take on a- an older wind farm, uh, they tend to get stuck, right? They, they, they, they don’t tend to be able to, to find their way through those little nuances. That’s a huge financial impact to them eventually, right?  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: It is. And I, and I believe that for many years this was something that in a way got, um– [00:09:00] didn’t get a lot of visibility. I think people were not fully aware of how much revenue, how much production they were losing just because they were not operating their assets at the best capacity. Um, now we have the data to prove what, what better can look like. W- uh, we have data to prove that if you follow the OEM’s, uh, protocols, you may be creating fatigue for no reason. Um, and there are improv- there are ways to improve that thing. So I think it’s, um– We are, we are opening the door for a new, complete new way to operate your, your portfolio and get more benefit from it. Allen Hall: I think that’s a very interesting aspect of the sort of the structural aspects of how a, a wind turbine performs, and a lot of that is driven by software. And you, you realize if you’re paying close attention to the OEMs that some of the software updates are not necessarily performance enhancements. They’re more of protecting the turbine because they realize they may have a problem. So it may be a slight derate, it may be a, a different sort of power curve that happens. [00:10:00] But a lot of operators don’t really sense that that is happening up close because they’re not into the details of that. That’s where Green Eagle separates itself. You are into all those details. And do you have a lot of operators just reach out for help immediately saying, “Hey, I have this Siemens Gamesa or Gamesa wind farm,” think about an older wind farm, a Gamesa wind farm Help. Just please help. Uh, whatever you can do, just show us you can do it. Do you, do you start to run a little test campaign on that site, or do you, or do you go pull back from the 70 gigawatts and 15 years of history to, to show this is what you can do with that particular asset to, to get them involved in a thinking about the problem a little bit differently? Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Well, I wish, I wish it was that way. Um, but what, what– It, it was that transparent, but what happens is that we’re working with the largest, uh, some of the largest utilities and IPPs in the world. So what happens is that they, they will never come to us saying, [00:11:00] “We don’t know how to operate this turbine,” or, “We don’t have enough information.” Um, the way they ask for it is like, “Are you compatible with this?” And, “Do you know… Do you have some protocols? Do you know the standard protocols to run these turbines?” Um, and that’s the way we, we start the conversation, and then they, uh, they, they get confident that we can actually help them with that. We only know about how, how much or how little they know about a specific model once we start working with them. And it’s not all or nothing. I- Ev-Even the largest manufacturer, e-even the largest utilities, their portfolio is constantly evolving. They’re incorporating new sites almost every month. So there’s always one site that they don’t, they don’t have expertise in the, in the house, so it’s, it’s normal. Like, basically not many people have expertise in some of the models from old Nordex or Gamesas or you name it. It, it’s impossible basically to have to understand all models in the world. So I think we [00:12:00] have the, the data, the benchmarks, and experience, and on top of that, the of course, the, the tools, so you can actually operate better those, those assets.  Allen Hall: So the name of your system is called ARSOS, A-R-S-O-S, and for anybody listening to this podcast, you can just Google it, and it’s gonna take you to Green Eagle. What is that product? How would, how would you define or describe that product?  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Well, ARSOS is a suite. Um, what– The way I like to think about it is a, is a three-in-one solution, right? So it’s first of all, it acts, it, it, it fits in between the SCADA world and the REMs, uh, the REMs, uh, solutions. Okay? And they’re complete different worlds even though you see dashboards and they look the same thing. But SCADAs must be, um, must be able to be installed on premises. They require OT enterprise cybersecurity level. They can be, they should be installed on air-gapped infrastructure, so no access to internet whatsoever. [00:13:00]Um, and that they tend to be extremely complex to configure and, and, uh, adapt to every, uh, every different site. So that’s one world. Um, on the other hand, we have the, the REM solutions that are like more like a SaaS platform, like a Power- it could be Power BI, it could be like the, the normal use cases that you need it. You need something, some tools to create the reports at the end of the month to understand the performance of your assets, right? So you have these two, two worlds. So what we are proposing here is a solution that has been built for the past 15 years, but it fits right in the middle. So it covers Almost everything that you need from a SCADA and second level SCADA solution. It puts automation in place, and then it also gives you all the data so you can consume it in the best way, uh, possible, which by the way, now with, uh, artificial intelligence, it’s incredible what you can do with it. So this is basically what we have built, um, right [00:14:00] now. And the main differentiation here is that since we are in the middle, we are trying to solve all this complexity from a SCADA world with a product that is already pre-configured. So you can basically connect to your sites in a completely easy way, um, doing clicks and not a lot of complexity because it’s already pre-made for your needs. Um, because of that, the time to market is extremely much, uh, faster compared to a SCADA solution, so you can have a solution in thing, in hours and not in months. It’s, it’s not a project anymore, right? Which is, which it sounds like normal when you, when you talk about applications, it sounds like a normal thing to do, that you have a, a system running in hours or minutes. But when you’re talking about SCADAs, that’s like sci- uh, sci-fiction, right? Um, that’s what we’re bringing to, into, onto the table. It’s, it’s, uh, something that you can connect to all your assets in a seamless way, painless, and, uh, and, uh, off the [00:15:00] shelf.  Allen Hall: Well, that’s a very interesting way of framing, uh, the product because, uh, you do see both ends of the spectrum here, where y- there’s a number of companies that are offering a c- completely SaaS product, which is a very pretty dashboard, and it still relies on a human to watch this dashboard and, and to make sense of it, and it provides some insight. And then you get to the other side, which is almost a completely mechanical system, where it’s just SCADA data and, and you’re just picking up data for datas, uh, to have, basically. So you, you f- you sort of find that middle ground. The, the, the amount of software and technology that it’s in that space, though, must be huge, and what is the effect of AI bring to you? Does that help you more with just on the, on the, on the model side or just the, the statistical analysis of all the data that you have access to now?  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Let me make a, um, clarification. Because since, uh, we are, we are providing automation [00:16:00] in a world that is mission critical, right? So there’s no, a lot of, there’s no room for creativity or probabilistic approach. It all has to be the deterministic, right? Uh, so when we talk about automation, we’ve always been focused on deterministic automation, so rule-based, uh, automation, and that’s what we have implemented on top of the level of the SCADAs, right? So that’s, that’s the part where you know how to deal with an asset. You have the protocols. You want to understand how they work, but you want to have certainty of what happens if the turbine is on fault and the fault is related to the gearbox temperature and so on. So you wanna make sure that there’s a reset automatically executed only if the temperature of the gearbox is under X threshold. So this very deterministic approach. Uh, but we have, uh, something, um, very unique when we go on the, on the other side, when we go on the side of the REMs. Because we not only have the data of, of the assets, we [00:17:00] not only have statuses, performance, availability, uh, production. We also have the data of how these assets, assets have been operated, right? So we know how much fatigue they have received, how they’ve been operated, um, have they received curtailments or not? How many curtailments? What were the reasons? So we can actually have a 360, uh, degree of all the data, including all the control, not only how they’re performing, but also how we are operating those assets. And we believe that this is very unique because only if you have all these 360 data, then you can actually enhance what you have on top of that. And that is where AI come, comes in, right? So AI, AI is great in, um, helping our customers in doing root cause analysis, um, dealing with anomalies are not well, um, uh, procedure. Uh, there’s no course of action that is clear, that you don’t know. It’s, they’re not like too [00:18:00] frequent to, to have one. Uh, mixing different type of data. Like I mentioned before, you have, uh, market data, you have curtailments, you have, uh, commands to stop or start a turbine. You have a lot of information there, and you can put all together. Uh, also along with the CMMS information. Um- Lastly, they get– they can pull that together to do whatever they need, right? Uh, they can build with AI. You, you can now do your own dashboards. You can create your own APMs if you wanted to. Um, and I like to think about it, like, with these new tools that you can create disposable dashboards. And, uh, the concept is that it doesn’t matter how many different dashboards you have in an APM, but tomorrow you have a, a specific case. And I think it’s amazing that now with AI and the right, uh, data structure, you can now create a dashboard, and maybe it’s just for one use case, you know? And you just build it today, look at the data. You have [00:19:00] a, um, a case study, and that’s it. May– you never use it that again. The trick for being able to, to, to create this ecosystem where you analyze the data in a completely different way is that we have been working on how to structure the data so the AI is gonna be able to understand the data itself. So once that, that layer is structured in the right way, then you can actually create your own APMs or your own dashboards as you need to.  Allen Hall: That’s fascinating. So instead of just thinking of a turbine or a, a solar field as a asset where you’re trying to maximize performance necessarily, you’re looking at it from the marketplace, the, the, uh, the shutdowns, all the, the things that are contr- overriding the performance and trying to optimize performance in this market environment, which may be very turbulent, and I think for a lot of wind operators is very turbulent, uh, at, at the minute just [00:20:00] because of the nature of the electricity grid. So you’re, you’re then thinking about Having an AI tool to help you do investigative work on the particulars, not just the global data set of how this turbine globally operates, but the specifics, that’s fascinating because that allows you then to treat each turbine as its own separate power plant, in a sense, but also to, to think about lifetime issues and how to maintain that piece of equipment in a much more efficient way. That’s remarkable.  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: And you have the– With AI, you also have the capabilities to automate all these type of analysis. So once you have a specific, uh, case to be analyzed, then you can automate that case to be analyzed in a daily basis, in a weekly basis. But that’s, uh, that, that’s, uh, that’s, uh, the world that we are moving to. Allen Hall: So a lot of what’s happening at Green Eagle at the moment is being automated and, and making it easy for, for customers to get [00:21:00]onboarded to the RSO system. What does that look like today? Uh, how do, how do I get onboarded? I have an asset of I got 1,000 turbines and a couple of solar fields. What does it look like to get me started in the RSO system with Green Eagle? Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Well, if you’re using our cloud, it’s, it’s gonna be a process of If you have a, a portfolio of 500 gigawatts, you can connect to our, to our cloud in a matter of like one month to two months So that’s something that you can do by yourself. So, um, you can create the assets, you can create the connectivity. The connectivity is done through IP filtering or VPN tunnels. All that is from the, from the dashboards, from, from the cloud. Um, then you can, based on the model directory, you can choose which is the, the assets that you want to connect to and through what channels, whether you have Modbus, OPC, and so on. Um, but that’s a- as complex as, as it gets. Really? It’s n- it’s not easy either, because [00:22:00] you need to understand what is a Modbus, what is a OPC, but that’s what it is. It, it’s not a matter of, like, installing something on site and doing tons of, uh, complex, uh, um, configurations. You don’t need, uh, SCADA engineers to be, like, building these dashboards tailor-made for your sites and, and all that is, is something from the past in o- in our opinion. Allen Hall: So you’re not on the telephone, or you’re not on a, a online chat with the Green Eagle team, because it’s, it’s, it’s– you’ve, you’ve done enough capacity now that you’ve automated this.  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: You don’t have to.  Allen Hall: That’s amazing, because I think that’s the first worry for any operator that is gonna make that leap saying, “Hey, I need a little bit of help with this wind farm or this solar site,” is that, “Oh, I gotta be on the phone. I gotta– There’s a lot of im- of onboarding that has to happen,” and you’ve eliminated that.  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Well, first, w- I, I totally understand this hesitation. Um, many of our customers are living in, in the, in the SCADA world, right? Uh, and which w- it was probably once a pain [00:23:00] to be configured to begin with, and I think half the sector is traumatized by these processes. So I, I tot- I totally understand that that pain is, is still there, right? I understand that. But what we’re trying to do is to, to move forward and say like, “Yeah, that, that’s gone. That was the past. Now we have a different way to do it.” And if you have, uh, either new assets that you need to connect or you even consider, like, moving to something more modern, something with more capabilities, something that comes with automation in place, uh, well, we have a solution that is painless. Allen Hall: Can I discuss, or can we go back and forth about the, the use of inverter-based resources, the solar and the wind sites, in terms of the, the move from grid following to grid forming and stabilizing the grid? I think there’s gonna be a lot of changes in the way that we operate these assets over the next year. Mostly, uh, I see action in the United States from the Iberian blackout about a year ago. They’re changing the thought process of how they want to run the grid so that the wind [00:24:00] and solar can keep the grid operating. Is– Are you involved in, are you involved in that aspect of how you operate those assets and how those inverters perform and, and configuring them to, to do more of the, of the grid forming and keeping the grid stable? Alejandro Cabrera Muños: I believe, to be honest, this is more related to power plant controllers and hybrid plants. So we have, we have made several projects with, um- With a mix, uh, of, uh, wind, solar, um, and storage. And wh- but what we’re doing here, uh, to be completely honest, we are not involved in the power plant controllers. Uh, we believe that that’s an electrical device and has, uh, uh, particularities that are out of us- our scope. But what we do is to, again, we connect to all asset classes, right? So we also w- connect to the PPCs, and we can monitor the PPC, the performance of the PPC, and we integrate that into everything else, right? So [00:25:00] that’s, for us, that’s another asset that we are connecting to, and that it make– it completes the view of, um, of sites that are now, like, almost like mini portfolios at, at the same place, right? ‘Cause you have, uh, different technologies, service stations. You have so many things that you need to orchestrate as well. So we’re, we’re w- moving into, into that area as well, uh, f- with the same concepts.  Allen Hall: B- so in a, in a sense, you’re able to monitor the health or status of the grid. Because you’re connected to so many of these assets, you have a pretty good understanding of how the grid is doing at any particular moment then. Alejandro Cabrera Muños: That’s right, yeah, especially in, in Spain, of course, ’cause we’re connected to, um, over 25 gigawatts at the, uh, at, in Spain, so.  Allen Hall: Alejandro, that’s amazing.  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Over 25 gigawatts at the, uh, at, in Spain. So, so that’s s- it’s almost a third of the, of the installed capacity in Spain.  Allen Hall: Is there a movement in Spain to, to use technology like yours [00:26:00] to better monitor, regulate, control the, uh, wind and solar assets so- such that they stay engaged when, when the, the grid starts to, to vary a little bit? Has anybody asked you to, to be involved with that? Because it seems like you’re the right– you’re in the right place at the right time.  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: The challenge of all these grid codes, uh, in, in most of cases is just that There are tons of curtailments that are coming from many different reasons, technical restrictions, market, uh, dispatch, um, other type of compliance. Um, the, the first challenge is to just execute on them, right? So they’re coming, you need to apply on the, on the sites. Um, that was the first, the first phase. But now that we have so many gigawatts connected, and that we’re also participating in balance mechanis- balance mechanisms and ancillary services, what we are seeing is that depending on how your assets perform and how quickly they are in regulating, um, you are gonna [00:27:00] have penalties or more, uh, profitability in the participation of the markets. So that’s, that’s extremely important as well ’cause it’s, it’s quite difficult to, to measure. But we have all the– Since everything is automated, you can always track, and you can statistically understand which of the sites are performing better or worse, in what cases, and therefore you have opportunities to improve the regulation and get more revenue from it. Allen Hall: Okay. So Green Eagle then is, because of the scale that it has at the minute, can look at the grid and is involved in, in the, the grid requirements, so to speak, of, of, uh, curtailments and what assets are operating when, and also the voltage control aspects and frequency control, which is the other part of it. You, because you’re, because you have so many assets in Spain and globally, you, it’s amazing the number of assets you have. You, you then can actually, one, see health of the grid, two, [00:28:00] provide insights to operators on what that looks like. I mean, real time you could, you can do that. And then are, are, are the regulators then coming to, to you asking advice on how these assets should perform? Because it does seem like you would be a tremendous resource on how the grid is actually doing on a larger scale from a renewables standpoint.  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Yeah. Well, fortunately, the, the regulator has its own also, uh, system, so it’s, uh, redundant, right? So as far as we, we are working to, to have, uh, the best system in the world, but, but it will be a lot of, uh, responsibility for us to just have the whole grid depending on us. That would be a lot of weight. Uh, but in a, in a way, in, in a, in a way, it already depends on us, uh, effectively. So, so the pressure is, is there. We have, we have talked to them, um, since we have so many customers, um, in the, in the– at this level, uh, we have to be very quick in implementing new grid codes and new [00:29:00] regulatory, uh, compliance issues and, and so on. So that’s, that’s, um… It’s a challenge, but at the same time, it’s, it’s very exciting that we are always ahead in, in this regard.  Allen Hall: Right. If, if I was an operator and I had Green Eagle as one of my, uh, helpers in a sense, uh, assistants in a sense, that helps with the, the grid code i-in terms of, one, understanding it, and two, being able to implement the changes that are coming down all the time. You have a resource there that understands it from a larger perspective because you see it from multiple operators in multiple places trying to do the same thing. That’s a huge advantage instead of you trying to na-navigate or try to understand all those grid code changes and why they’re happening and what it means to you and how do you operate your assets. So you can provide a little bit of guidance there for the operators.  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Of, of course. Um, uh, the main, the main value proposition that we can have here for anyone that wants to participate or be part of the Spanish market is that we already have all this figured out. So if you wanna start from the scratch [00:30:00] with, uh, with a SCADA, industrial SCADA, well, let’s, let’s go with, let’s go with that. You’re gonna be probably traumatized in the future, right? Uh, but with us you have an off-the-shelf product that is already compliance. It, uh, h- we have already set, uh, the system certified by the TSO in Spain. So we have already gone through this process so many times, and it’s off the shelf, so you don’t have to worry about any of this. And on top of that, you have the Peace of mind that if tomorrow there’s gonna be a, a, a new change in the, in the, in a new grid code, well, which most likely is gonna happen, um, soon, uh, we have to, we have to do it. Because we have already, uh, a lot of customers that, that, that need it. So for us, it’s actually also, uh, strategic to, to be ahead and be fast in implementing these grid codes. Allen Hall: That’s amazing. That’s such a huge resource for Spain and the rest of the world. Yeah, that’s amazing. Well, I, I know people who are listening to this podcast right now are thinking, “Okay, I haven’t heard of Green [00:31:00]Eagle, but now I’m interested, and I need to f- find out more.” How do they contact you? Where do they go first? What’s the best first step?  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Well, they can connect, uh, directly to me through LinkedIn, or they can just write to sales@greeneaglesolutions.com.  Allen Hall: Great, yeah, and Alejandro’s available on LinkedIn, so you can f- find him there. And we’ll put his contact information in the show notes to, so you have quick access. Alejandro, you gotta come back more often because the, the things that you’re doing with Green Eagle are amazing, and, uh, the, the scale is incredible. Congratulations on that. Uh, and, and I, I, I need you to come back and tell us what the next generation looks like because I know when you guys get ahold of AI and start thinking through some of these real challenging problems, Green Eagle will have solutions. So you’re welcome back anytime.  Alejandro Cabrera Muños: Super exciting to come back, uh, when you invite me. Thank you so [00:32:00] much.

Blessed Blade of the Whatever!So I went to take a crack at The Nine in Sanctum of Domination...ya know, the Maw. It's still a pain in the ass, btw. But I did discover something I forgot. If you die in the maw, you just kinda respawn somewhere. Makes sense, though, since it's supposedly Warcraft Hell. Where was I gonna go, Detroit?Wwwhats up swingaz? From the tbhq in the grizzly Midwest, welcome to Thrall's Balls episode 234!Mixed drink of the week (Gershom - Thunderfury)-elderberry flower tea ice cubes-shot of coconut vodka-diet 7 up-lime juice to tasteNext week: Woolly - Xal'atath, Blade of the Black EmpireWhat have we done in WoW?WoW NewsTrading Posthttps://www.wowhead.com/news/take-a-midsummer-stroll-in-the-june-trading-post-38174112.0.7https://www.wowhead.com/news/midnight-patch-12-0-7-ptr-now-a-release-candidate-build-381735https://www.wowhead.com/news/large-experience-buffs-for-quests-in-patch-12-0-7-381676Go ahead and follow us in the social places. You can find the various proper spellings in the episode description!@Woolly08 twt insta @PlaggyBoy tktk@HunterGershom twt @HunterGerrshom insta GershomOutLoud@gmail.com@ThrallsBallsPod Twt InstaSearch ThrallsBallsPod on YoutubeEmail us with any feedback or questions: ThrallsBallsPodcast@gmail.comYou can also leave us feedback on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or even in a specialized reviews channel on our Discord. Go to ThrallsBalls.com to find our Linktree.All of our show's relevant links (including Discord) can be found there.Bye we love you be good!https://discord.gg/HuFkhagM3Z

"What does the Bible say about borders and immigration?"Leviticus 19:33-34Summer Heat SeriesPastor Nate ClarkeMay 31, 2026Virginia's proposed Constitutional amendments on Abortion & Marriage - How to VOTE BIBLICALLY: https://youtu.be/Y8z8xTFsOn8How should Christians respond to wickedness in the world? https://youtu.be/2OJUIM9YRwASERMON NOTES:- Leviticus 19:33-34- What does the Bible say about borders and immigration?- Tribalism: organized around ethnicity. Protect your own. Fear the outsider. - Nationalism: organized around borders, shared values and morals, and laws.- “E Pluribus Unum” = “out of many, one”- “We are a nation of immigrants. But we are also a nation of laws.” Presidents Obama and Clinton- The role of the Christian, the role of the government, and the role of the immigrant- Leviticus 19:33-34- The role of the Christian: do not mistreat the foreigner, but love them- The role of the government: to protect the people and borders of its nation and administer justice without partiality. - What does the Bible have to say about national borders?- Acts 17:26- Numbers 34:1-2- A rule that is not enforced isn't a rule. Borders that aren't enforced aren't borders. A nation without borders isn't a nation. Therefore, a nation that doesn't enforce its borders will cease to be a nation. - Why should a nation respect and protect its borders?- National security- Nehemiah 13:1-3- To preserve its prosperity- Leviticus 19:15- Proverbs 6:30-31- Romans 13:1-2- Romans 13:3-5- The role of the immigrant is to join in with and obey the laws of the nation.- Ancient Israel: outsiders could join but they had to follow proper procedures to do so and could not change the culture or reshape the covenant in Israel.- Exodus 12:49 (one common law)- Exodus 20:10 (nations customs and rhythms)- Leviticus 18:26 (standards of morality, right and wrong)- Exodus 12:48 (uncomfortable, sacrificial ways)- Deuteronomy 31:12 (learn the Hebrew language)- Nehemiah 13:15-21 (morals and values)- The Story of Ruth    - Foreigner from Israel (Moabite)- Deuteronomy 23:3    - Resident foreigner. Leaves her land and joins culture and laws of Israel- Ruth 1:16-17     - Welcomed and living, but within laws- Leviticus 19:9-10    - Makes it official, married to Boaz (Ruth 4:1-12)    - Joined Israel, part of the genealogy of Jesus, the great-grandmother of King David- Ephesians 2:12-13, 19- Philippians 3:20Oasis Church exists to Worship God, Equip the believers, and Reach the lost.We are led by Pastor Nate Clarke and are located in Mechanicsville outside Richmond in Central Virginia.STAY CONNECTEDInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/oasischurchva/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/OasisChurchRVA/Website: https://oasischurch.online

Bill & Stacy Spencer founded The Narrow gate in Duck River, TN. That's interesting because Narrow Gate is an ENTERPRISE (Think coffee, leather goods, wood beams, artists, and a lodge...) and it MAKES disciples, one at a time. How do they do that? Here's an episode on that!00:00 - 01:40 Introduction01:41 - 03:59 Often-ignored, but not so secret disciple making04:00 - 05:43 Stacy's home invasion! 05:44 - 07:12 Identity. Passion. Purpose.07:13 - 09:01 Gen Z and Identity09:02 - 10:35 Who I truly am?10:36 - 14:48 The Enterprise, The Individual, The Disciple (All together now...)14:49 - 16:34 Work = Disciple Making??16:35 - 17:49 Whadd'ya mean "replicate"?17:50 - 20:43 Deny? Die? The fine print of Christianity20:44 - 22:26 What if I can't come to Narrow Gate?22:27 - 23:59 Where are the women??24:00 24:49 Haunting words24:50 - 25:52 Contact Bill & Stacey / WrapupJoin us at The Disciple Dilemma for videos, blogs and more conversation about the "hack" facing Western discipleship!

These are just the best weekend snack that everyone loves. They originate from Lebanon where they're called ‘arayes'. Eat them as a snack or with salad for a full meal. Makes 12 Ingredients 500g lamb mince 1 onion, grated 2 cloves garlic, grated 3 tsps each ground cumin, coriander, paprika ¼–½ tsp cayenne (optional) Small bunch of parsley, chopped ½ tsp sea salt 6 mini pita breads Olive oil for brushing Dipping sauce ½ cup plain yoghurt 2 tsp pomegranate molasses 2 tsps sesame seeds Method In a bowl mix the mince with onion, garlic, spices, parsley, and salt. Halve each pita bread and tease the layers apart (slightly warm the breads if needed). Take a tablespoon of the spiced meat and spread it into a thin layer inside each pita. Make sure it gets right to the edges. Press flat and brush each pita with olive oil. Heat a pan to medium and fry each filled pita bread until golden and meat filling is cooked. It doesn't take long as it's a very thin layer of meat. Mix all dipping sauce ingredients together. Serve warm pita with dipping sauce. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

✔️ Signed Isn't Enough—Is Your Divorce ENFORCEABLE? | Los Angeles Divorce Signing an agreement is one thing — making sure it is enforceable is another. In California divorce cases, clarity and proper documentation are what help agreements hold up long after the divorce is finalized. In this video, we explain what makes divorce documents enforceable, why vague or incomplete terms can create problems later, and how properly structured agreements provide stronger protection. Divorce661 helps clients prepare clear, complete divorce paperwork designed to support enforceability and reduce future disputes.

Ryan joins us this week to head back to the pond for another episode of The Way Home. ABOUT: THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 6) Elliot becomes engrossed with uncovering more of his mother's secret history and recruits Kat's help, while Jacob reacclimatizes to life in Port Haven. AIR DATE & NETWORK FOR: THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 6) May 24, 2026 | Hallmark Channel CAST & CREW OF: THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 6) Chyler Leigh as Kat Landry Evan Williams as Elliot Augustine Sadie Laflamme as Alice Dhawan Andie MacDowell as Del Landry BRAN'S THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 6) SYNOPSIS Jacob is back out on horseback, just like the good old days. He goes to see his friend Danny and is like, “Sorry I was gone for a while, but I'm here now and ready to help.” Meanwhile, Elliot is going full conspiracy mode, reading every article he can find. Kat keeps trying to get ahold of him to see if he's coming to dinner, but he's too busy printing copies of important archives. He eventually shows up, completely zonked, and leaves pretty quickly. Things are still awkward between Jacob and Del, and Kat encourages him to talk to her. Then Jacob randomly brings up those threatening letters that I had completely forgotten about. Kat talks with Del about her loss back in 1979, and they have a really sweet heart-to-heart. Later, Del goes outside to talk to her horse…and the horse starts acting weird. Makes you wonder. Jacob meets Max, but the conversation gets cut short when he sees the mysterious girl from the bar walking past the window. He follows her to the park, where she introduces herself as Abby. Turns out both of their families are from the area. They head back together, and that's when Jacob realizes Abby is Max's sister. She finds out he's Jacob Landry, and when he learns she's Abby Goodwin, she's basically like, “Okay…I'm outta here.” Kat goes to check on Elliot, and he suddenly kisses her BIG TIME. She also spots the copied archives, but Elliot gets weird and makes up excuses about why he has them. He suspects his mom may have been a fortune teller back in the 1920s, and Kat remembers hearing stories about one. They find a flyer advertising an upcoming fortune-telling event that hasn't happened yet, so naturally they decide they're jumping back together. Max surprises Alice with a plaque on “their table,” but yeah, they're totally just friends. Del tries talking to the horse again, but this time it charges at her. Jacob offers to help, but Del snaps that she'll just get attached and then he'll leave again. Starting to think she's not really talking about the horse anymore. Kat and Elliot make it to the carnival in the past. The pond is ponding. Alice runs into KC again. She's like, “Why are you here?” KC responds, “I don't know. Pond be ponding.” Alice immediately asks, “Am I your mom? Do I marry Max?” KC refuses to answer directly but says, “Good questions. Follow your gut and you'll have no regrets.” Kat and Elliot search through carnival tents looking for Elliot's mom. Kat spots the Auggie boys and Elliot follows them while Kat chases after someone she thinks might be Tessa. Naturally, they lose each other. The Auggie boys end up capturing Elliot. Luckily, Elliot manages to beat them up himself, but then Cliff shows up and arrests the boys. Kat and Elliot reunite and run into Fern, who urgently tells them to leave. Then they discover Cliff let the Auggie boys go free because, apparently, money talks. Back in the present, Del keeps working with the horse, and it finally starts trusting her again while Jacob watches from a distance. Kat and Elliot finally locate the fortune teller's tent. A huge crowd gathers, including basically everyone they know from the 1920s storyline. The fortune teller walks onstage and…I still honestly don't know if it's Elliot's mom. She calls Kat onstage and reads her palm, telling her she's a time traveler and that she's there to rescue her. Then “Tessa” asks Kat to meet her backstage. But before they can actually talk, the Auggie boys kidnap her. Kat realizes they're probably taking her to the shipping docks. Jacob also runs into KC, who refuses to explain much about who they really are besides saying their name is “just a name.” Then Abby shows up, and Jacob is basically like, “I think fate brought us together.” Kat and Elliot track the Auggie boys to the docks and see them loading Tessa onto a ship while saying, “Capone is gonna love this.” Alice tells Max she doesn't want to leave, and he completely freaks out on her. Jacob finally tells Del that he's staying. And then, at the very end, Kat rushes in to stop the Auggie boys…only to discover that Tessa is actually the ringleader. Elliot runs up yelling, “Mom!” and Tessa immediately makes sure he gets knocked out. Watch the show on Youtube - www.deckthehallmark.com/youtubeInterested in advertising on the show? Email bran@deckthehallmark.com Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

We have Brett Lander on the podcast this week. He's the GM of the Waco Woolly Wranglers, a new team in a new summer collegiate league, the Cowboy Collegiate League. Brett talks about the team and the league. He shares a little about his background and why Waco is a good place for a summer baseball team to play. He shares his favorite Texas Rangers players and his Proffitt & Loss.Makes sure to follow the Woolly Wranglers online.Waco Woolly Wranglers - Website: https://www.wacowoollywranglers.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wacowoollywranglersInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/wacowoollywranglers (@WacoWoollyWranglers)Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/wacowranglers (@WacoWoollyWranglers)Earned Fun Average - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/earnedfunavg/ (@EarnedFunAvg)Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/earnedfunavg/ (@EarnedFunAvg)Blue Sky: https://www.bsky.app/profile/earnedfunavg.bsky.social  (@EarnedFunAvg.bsky.social)Threads: https://www.threads.com/@earnedfunavg (@EarnedFunAvg)Curved Brim Media -Website: https://www.curvedbrimmedia.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/curvedbrimmedia/ (@CurvedBrimMedia)Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/CurvedBrim/ (@CurvedBrim)

✉️ How to Properly Serve Divorce Papers to an Out-of-State Spouse | Los Angeles Divorce Serving divorce papers to a spouse in another state can feel more complicated — but distance doesn't make proper service requirements disappear. In this video, we explain how out-of-state service works, why approved methods and proof of service matter, and how mistakes in interstate service can quietly delay your case. Divorce661 helps guide clients through every required step, making sure service is handled correctly and documented properly so your case keeps moving forward.

In this episode of The Founder's Sandbox, host Brenda McCabe sits down with behavioral scientist Nicholas Epley of the University of Chicago Booth School of Business to explore the surprising power of human connection. Drawing on decades of research and his new book A Little More Social, Epley reveals why we consistently underestimate how positive social interactions can be—and how small choices, like expressing gratitude or starting a conversation, can significantly improve our well-being, relationships, and workplace culture. Together, they discuss the science behind social connection, the hidden barriers that hold us back, and practical ways leaders and professionals can build more resilient, purpose-driven organizations through simple, intentional human interactions. You can find out more about Nicholas and his book at: about Nicholas Epley Accolades Nicholas Epley Book him for for speaking events at: https://www.wsb.com/speakers/nicholas-epley/ or pre order his new Book out May 19, 2026: A Little More Social Here: Amazon, Bookshop) You can also find his book Mindwise here: Amazon, Bookshop transcript: 00:04 Welcome back to the Founders Sandbox. I am Brenda McCabe, your host. Now in the fourth season, my mission with this podcast is really to bring in company owners, founders, 00:31 professionals, board directors that like me share a common mission, which is making change in the world through enterprises, small, medium or large. em And each of my guests um have em in their own ways built resilient, scalable, well-governed businesses um to really make that change. And I'm absolutely delighted to have Professor Epley, Nicholas Epley, 01:01 from the University of Chicago as my guest for this month. um Welcome to the Founder's Sandbox. Thank you, Brenda. This is a delight for me to have a former student back with me in conversation. I love it. It's amazing. I've been pursuing you for at least two years, and I kept getting delayed because of his writing a book. And today we're going to talk about um his new book that will be launching on May 19th, A Little More Social. 01:31 So before we get into the material, I need to make a proper introduction as I do to all my guests, all right? So um Nicholas Eppoli, he is the John Templeton Keller Distinguished Service Professor of Behavioral Science and Faculty Director of the Roman Family Center for Decision Research at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. He is an author. We'll get into some of his work today. And he has many other accolades. 01:59 that are just too many to go through here because we'll eat into valuable time. And he has back to back podcast to announce his new book. I do want to call out one accolade. You were named by Ethicast, I guess, a business leader in ethics back in 2018. And business ethics, as we all know, corporate governance is very near and dear to my heart. So those accolades will be in the show notes. 02:29 em Dr. Epley, or Professor Epley as I'll call you, right? You study social cognition, how thinking people think about other thinking people to understand why smart people so routinely misunderstand each other. He teaches an ethics and happiness course to MBA students called Designing a Good Life. I was a... 02:56 an alumnus. I took your course back, think in 2017, 2018. So you're going to be forever a professor to me. All right. So I often speak of your class designing a good life and the pro-social exercises and other stats and experiments that now that you have this book out, I realized you were using the classrooms. Yes, I was. Yeah, I was doing a lot of the experiments in the class. I mean, the best way to teach 03:25 people something is not to tell them the thing, but to show them the thing. And so I could tell you that reaching out and expressing gratitude makes you feel better, makes other people feel better than you think, but more powerful is actually have you do it. Right. So we're going to talk about the book. And I think it's in chapter seven that you talk specifically about how gratitude is such a powerful mechanism. um Again, my guest here, I like to uh 03:56 kind of identify resiliency, purpose driven or scalable. m I think that what you teach and what we're gonna hear about here for my listeners is an example of resiliency practices. And I believe it's very much key in bringing it back to my listeners, Professor Upley is I work with a lot of company owners, business leaders who I think would benefit from learning some of these practices outside of the classroom today. anyway. 04:23 I took your class back in, I think, in 2017, pre-pandemic and in person. And my life has uh really been impacted in an incredibly positive way. I bring it into my personal life, some of these experiments that you're going to share with my listeners, as well as the classroom, where I do teach business ethics. And I have them um do a personal responsibility statement uh at the end of their. 04:51 their semester with me. That is awesome. So again, accolades. Thank you to you. So with my guests, I want you to make a little introduction and share your origin story. Why did you choose to become what's called a behavioral scientist? I won't make it too long. I do remember I got to college. I wanted to be a football player, college football player, small college division three. 05:20 at St. Olaf. I went to St. Olaf because I liked the football coach. I thought I was going to be a biologist. I took those classes. They were totally boring, but I took an intro psychology class, which was all self paced. It was supposed to take a semester to do. I was done with it about a third of the way through the semester. I just ate it all up. I went through it like wildfire, which I took as an indication that this is something I might be interested in. 05:51 I started reaching out to faculty, started doing research. And one day my senior year, early my senior year in college, my em undergraduate advisor grabbed a book down from the shelf and handed it to me and said, I think you might find this to be interesting. It was Tom Gilovich's book, How We Know What Isn't So. And the book describes how the psychological processes that give us beliefs and expectations and opinions about the world, thoughts about other people. 06:20 can often lead us astray, give us perceptions and beliefs that differ from the way the world actually is. And I found the work so fascinating. I read that book in a day. I took it and I went right through it. And I thought, that is the thing I wanna do. I wanna do research like that. I couldn't think of anything else more interesting to do than that. So I applied to a PhD program to Cornell University, which is where Tom is on the faculty. I applied to a bunch of others too. 06:49 em I was fortunate enough uh that I was waitlisted at Cornell, somebody declined their offer, and I got in as a PhD student. And the rest then is kind of one lucky break after another, after another, after another, after another, things working out well. And me just following things that seemed interesting at the time. em I was lucky to have Tom as a PhD advisor. 07:16 We started working on really interesting things. My first year there, turns out we underestimate how positively others judge us when we do something that we're kind of embarrassed about. Other people cut us a lot more slack than we think. And that interest in understanding, and in particular, understanding how well we understand the minds of others was something we were working on right away. And that interest... 07:44 just as grown and grown and grown and grown and grown. I've stopped thinking about other things. It's the only thing I kind of can think about. And the mistakes we make about the minds of other people are all around us and problematic. And so that's how I got here. Thank you for sharing that. um And specifically at this time in 2026, uh 08:11 So how does the mind of a behavioral scientist work? What experiments do you whip up to test some of the hypotheses? All right. for your first book, right, there was some, right. And the preface of your second book, you said, that morning I decided to test a different approach. As a psychologist, I try to understand human behavior using experiments. 08:34 But this time I decided to put myself into an experiment instead of ignoring the person who just sat down next to me, I would try to connect. So how does work? So one, I think the important thing about being a researcher, we're all researchers out there in the world in our own ways, right? So founders are starting companies and they're doing research constantly about what works and what doesn't. 08:59 As a scientist, we get to run experiments that sometimes have a little more control over them than what you have out there in the world. But the thing that is common to both the scientist and the founder or to almost anyone out there in the world is that you ask why questions. And so as a scientist, it's not so much the experiments we conduct that are critical, although those are critical. The critical thing is that you... 09:28 We look at the world in a slightly different way than others might and therefore notice things that other people might not notice. And that's where our hypotheses, our ideas come from. So one morning on the train, for instance, I was coming in to the University of Chicago where you know all too well where I work uh and I live on the far South side. And I was writing a chapter for MindWise, which was my first book describing how we have this mind uniquely equipped for brain uniquely equipped for connecting with the minds of others. 09:58 And I was describing how we often and why we misunderstand each other. And I was writing one of those chapters describing how we've got this brain uniquely equipped for connecting with others, made happier and healthier by connecting with others. And yet I was sitting on the train and I had this kind of eureka moment. Here we all were, and I've been doing this for years by now. Here we all were sitting on this train, highly social animals, made happier and healthier connecting with each other. And we were all ignoring each other. We're not connecting at all, treating the person next to us. 10:27 Like a lamp shade, right? And that was where I thought that seems weird. Does this make sense that we do this? Social connection is a choice. It's a decision about whether we reach out and engage with somebody or hold back. And that was the thing that I noticed. That was the perspective that other people might not have is that that's a choice and understanding that our perceptions are sometimes wrong or miscalibrated. 10:55 suggests that sometimes we can make those choices wrong, make them incorrectly or unwise. And so that morning I decided to enroll myself in an experiment. I had a woman come sit down next to me. I was probably at this time, I'm 51 right now, I was probably in my mid 30s, 35 or something like that at the time. This woman, she's probably 55 or so, African-American woman, uh clearly dressed for work, uh really looking sharp, had this beautiful red hat on. 11:24 almost like a bonnet, had this big wide brim. It was beautiful. uh And I decided that morning to put myself in an experiment. What would happen if I actually engaged in conversation and to really pay attention to what happened, right? Because that's another thing we do as researchers is we measure things closely. We pay close attention in our measurement. So I just started having conversation. I opened up with a pretty weak joke. uh I said, I love your hat. I have one just like it, right? 11:54 Yeah, not in the conversation hall of fame there, right? uh But she turned to me and she just like lit up. I remember so distinctly the reaction was like she'd almost looked like a different person. Her face, the face that we carry around with us, the dead face, right? Our resting Grinch face is kind of Grinchy, right? But as soon as you engage with somebody, you perk up, your face smiles, your eyes lighten, you look. 12:23 almost like a different person. So she turned to me lit up and uh the conversation then just flowed pretty easily. We had a nice conversation, half hour, time went really fast. As I got up to leave, I remember she held my wrist uh as I was getting up just to express some sincerity and she said, thank you so much for talking with me today. It wasn't just like, hey, that was lovely. We really meant it, like it was nice. 12:52 And the thing that I remember so clearly is that it wasn't just nice, it was surprisingly nice. That surprisingly part is critical because there was a gap between how I believed the conversation might turn out. I a nervous, what do I have in common with this person? I don't know. Will it go well? Do they really want to talk to me? Probably not. Will she misunderstand while I'm talking to her? Maybe. 13:17 You know, mistakenly think I'm hitting on her or something or make her feel uncomfortable instead of just having a nice conversation between two human beings. So all that stuff was going through my head, but it was misplaced. It was wrong. And so the conversation wasn't just positive. It was surprisingly positive. And that insight that social connection is a choice and that our choices could be wrong led me to run a bunch of experiments to test whether this is just something unique. 13:45 to me as a kind of weirdo or whether this is something we might see a little more widely. And so we started running experiments on the train that I ride. We recruited people for an experiment. We randomly assigned them to do one of three things, to either try to have a conversation with a person who sits down next to them that morning, so this is the connection condition, to... 14:11 keep to themselves that morning and just enjoy their solitude or to do whatever they normally do. 14:17 At the end of the survey, they reported how the conversation actually made them feel, how positive it made them feel on a couple of different measures. And then we asked another group, we asked them to predict how they would feel if they were actually in that situation. To report their beliefs, their expectations about how they would feel. Because that's what actually drives your behavior. It's not how you actually feel. You don't know how you're gonna feel. You're projecting, right? Yes. It's not gonna happen, yeah. Exactly. So you sit down and you think, well. 14:45 what would happen if I did this? Those are your expectations. And people's behavior is driven by their expectations. And what people expected was that they would have a more positive commute if they kept to themselves than if they had a conversation with somebody, which is what people are doing, right? So they're behaving rationally in line with their expectations. But when we actually had people do these things and report how they actually felt at the end, it was those in the connection condition. 15:12 that actually had the more positive commute and those in the solitude condition who kept it themselves had the least positive commute. People's expectations weren't just wrong, they were precisely backwards. They thought that keeping it in themselves would make them happier. In fact, connecting with somebody else is what would make them happier. And that was just the tip of a very big iceberg. For the last decade and a half, it just, we've been seeing these things all over the place. I'm like a guy with a hammer who sees nothing but nails. 15:41 I can find these phenomena all over the place now. So it's nearly two decades of research. That first experiment, you speak to it in the second book. don't know whether you also put it into the first book. It is wise to understand what others think, believe, feel and want, which is your first book. um So two decades later and pushing your five years of writing and you were avoiding. 16:09 being a guest on my podcast and that rightly so. Yes, took a long time. But as then. of 2026, your book, A Little More Social is being released. And we'll have how to get that book in the show notes as well after this podcast goes live. So what I wanted to do is really ask you what made you want to release it now in 2026, right? And 16:39 Again, I was able to get a pre-read of some of the material and uh while not stealing your thunder, what I was, I like how you've set the sections or the why questions. So back to the empirical, right? Research you do as a social scientist. Why, why not? What if, what now are the four sections of the book? But I will tell you this, I read the prologue and when I started reading chapter one, I was depressed. It was really hard to go on. 17:08 So I'm warning, just so with that, I'm not gonna give the spoiler alert. What made you want to publish this year finally after two decades and right? So I will say that I think the message of the book is fundamentally empowering, not depressing. It was just first chapter. I was like, wow. Just the first chapter maybe about the importance of social connection and how we're not choosing it. But once you see that, 17:38 Once you see that your beliefs about other people might be off a little bit, it's an invitation to test those. And to see places where you and your life are holding yourself back, not because social connection is unpleasant or you're not good at it, but because you're not even trying and finding out that you could be wrong. And once you start to see that the bars in front of you that are holding you back from reaching out and engaging with others, 18:05 having stronger relationships, communicating more clearly, having more joy and enjoyment in your life and making people around you better. Once you start seeing that those bars that are holding you back sometimes, making you overly fearful about engaging are actually made out of pasta noodles, it's easy to break through them. It is empowering. The people I talk to a lot in this book who spend a lot of time talking to other people, almost all describe themselves as having a superpower that other people don't have. 18:35 They're not afraid of engaging. And hence they don't hold themselves back from opportunities that they could have in the better life that tends to follow when we're connected well with other people. As to why 2026, I wish I could say it was something like market timing. I was getting exactly right. The world is a disaster, is a dumpster fire at the moment. are uh going deeper, deeper into loneliness in our lives. The world's a mess. 19:03 hostile and violent and unfriendly and we're trying to pull back from this. I wish I could say it was market timing. uh It wasn't market timing exactly. It was more, uh I don't know what the right word for it is in the innovator world, but I didn't have the product until today. Right. Or serendipitous as well. Serendipitous. Yes, serendipitous. I do think there's a timeless element to this too, which is, it is always the case, I think. 19:32 I don't think these phenomena are totally new. There are new elements to them, but there are times where we can always make our relationships a little bit better. But yes, right now there is some serendipity, I think. We could really use it right now. I agree. Tell me how it is to make a choice. So we all are different human beings, right? Talk about human beings. 20:01 condition, right? We're very social and some of us are more introverted than extroverted. how, and with your book, how can we be more empowered to make that choice? So I think the important insight from behavioral science here is that social connection and therefore the happiness and wellbeing and relationships that follow from that is to some extent a choice that we make. All social interactions that we have a choice over 20:29 you get to a point where you have to decide, I refer to it as the choice, because I think it is arguably the most important choice we make over and over and over and over again, which is, do I reach out and engage with you or do I hold back? And that choice, the choice shows up in lots of different forms. Do I talk with a stranger? Do I type to you or pick up the phone and talk to you? Do I... 20:56 ask deep and meaningful questions or do I hold back? Do I share this compliment or this feeling of gratitude or request for help or honest piece of advice for you, honest feedback? Do I share those things or do I hold them back? So the choice masquerades in lots and lots of different ways, but at its core is this conflict between approaching, wanting to engage and fear or avoidance, being nervous about it, right? And when both of those things are strong, we get 21:26 approach avoidance conflicts where we'd like to do this thing, but we're nervous. I'd like to go up and talk to that other CEO I'd like to meet, but maybe they don't want to talk to me. That's approach avoidance conflict. What we find in our work is that, well, other researchers have found that these two systems in our brain are independent of each other. That's approach and avoidance. Approach and avoidance. Yeah. The factors that govern approach, the system that governs approach in our brain is different from the system that governs avoidance. Okay. 21:55 That's how you can get both of them being very strong at the same time. They're not dynamic with each other. They can operate independently. And when you don't have any interest to approach or any interest to avoid, then you're indifferent, right? But the opposite of that is approach avoidance. And um people do vary a little bit in the strength of these two motives, uh in what guides their choice. 22:21 Extroverts tend, for instance, to have a little bit stronger approach orientation or rather a little less of the avoidance orientation. But I think the important insight is that what extroversion and introversion is really about is how you make the choice. And this is something that people, think, routinely misunderstand about what personality actually is, or at least the way we measure it as psychologists. I think that's the important thing, the way we often measure it as psychologists. 22:49 It's not describing the type of person you are. It is describing the type of choices that you make. So for instance, people might often think that introverts and extroverts, actually enjoy different things. That extroverts like talking to people, whereas introverts like talking to people less. That turns out not to be quite right. When you put people in experiments and you actually have them talk, introverts and extroverts both enjoy talking to people, right? 23:17 They both get tired talking to people later, but they're energized during it. They both actually feel more authentic when they're talking to someone and engaging in social interaction than when they're not. What differs between the two is how they make the choice and therefore what they think they will like or enjoy and therefore the habits they create and what they do. And that I think- that's kind of a revelation. uh 23:47 But psychologists have been discovering this for decades. So you go back to 1980 was the first published paper testing whether happiness or wellbeing was related to personality. Now in theory, you wouldn't expect it to be, right? Actroverts like talking to people. Proverts like uh reading books and keeping to themselves, more quiet time, Enjoying more solitude. Great, there should be no differences in happiness. We get what we want out of life. 24:16 That turns out not to be true. Extroverts tend to feel more positive, have more positive affect, more happiness in their lives than introverts full stop. And it is not a small effect, it is a huge effect. The correlation between extroversion and positive affect, essentially happiness in your life, positive mood in your life, is around 0.5, which is as big as the correlation between the heights of fathers and their sons. It's huge. It's huge, right? And so... 24:43 Psychologists learn then over time that that comes in part because extroverts tend to choose to act a little more extroverted. If you ask people to act more extroverted, everybody tends to get a little happier, uh introverts and extroverts alike. If you ask people to act more introverted, people tend to get a little less happy, introverts and extroverts alike. So I think that's a really important insight that introversion and extroversion is really about choices and habits. 25:12 more than actual experience. You know, m I extroverts to choose to do it more often. Is it a? Is it oh a game of numbers? Is it like betting? Is it just showing up for yourself more frequently? Independent of being an extrovert or introvert where I'm going is how can we apply this in the workforce with our workmates and things? Right? Is it just, you know, just choosing independent of what the outcome may be? 25:42 more often. So our data suggests that our assessment of the odds and all of life is kind of a gamble. Our choices are gambles on the future based on what we think is going to be relatively positive or not, what's going to be relatively rewarding or not. And our data suggests that we get the odds a little wrong. Extroverts and introverts both do. And actually, I don't want to focus too much on that because it's a much weaker, it's a much weaker phenomena than we actually 26:12 You might imagine that it is. People tend to think on average they're more introverted actually than they really are em because extroversion is public but introversion is private. So we all know our own private introverted side. It makes us feel unique, more unique than we actually are. But I think our data suggests not that you go out and you talk to people all the time or you share every detail about yourself. It suggests we get the odds a little bit off. 26:40 It suggests when it's easy, when it's possible to connect or to engage or when you have a thought that you could share that you think might turn, you know, be positive. If you recognize that that avoidance motivation is a little too strong. 26:55 Recognize you have to dial that back that your first thought might be overly avoidant your second thought a lot of times might suggest No, I'll give this a try. I'll give it a try. I'll give it try. I like that. Somebody said me lose right? So with that why not right part two of your book? Do you want to talk about a little bit about? The the how well you've talked about the have connection, but hello stranger, you know really just making it happen. I 27:23 I don't know whether you can make an inference into the workplace. I would like you to do that for me. Yeah. Yeah. Because we are human beings and whether we work in hybrid, we're totally remote, or we are working back in the office, we get things done through interactions with our colleagues. And so how might your work and a little more social uh make our, uh I guess, our interactions 27:53 more empowering uh and just overall lifting up. I think our data suggests that you can look for times in your life where there's kind of dead space or kind of gray space. Time where you could engage or connect with someone but are choosing not to in ways that wouldn't take you away from something. That's a place to start. Like I'm on the train in the morning coming in. 28:18 I'm just sitting there. Usually I'm not doing squat anyway. I'm scrolling my phone or reading the news. I think it's really important, but come on. Sometimes we do things, but often we're not. And that's a place that's easy for me. Like I did this morning, I had a conversation with Brenda on my train. um Brenda I've known for a while. I don't see her that often, but this morning she was on the train and we had a lovely 30 minute conversation. She gave me a hug at the end and she said I was really what she needed today. 28:48 Oh, right. And that's amazing. Yeah, she's a lovely human being. She's a great name. Yeah, she's great. But I don't see her a lot. Maybe a few times a year we'll be on the same train. But every time I see her, I know her. I remember I wrote her name down and I can have that conversation. It's easy. But that's something where I wouldn't have been. 29:13 social otherwise, it's easy to do. And if I know it's gonna be more positive than I think, then I would choose to do that than something else. When I get to my office here at the Harper Center here at Booth, I walk into the door on the way in and I got maybe a 250 yard walk up to my office here on the fourth floor. And I've started making it a habit that I take a hello walk when I come in. When I walk by people, I don't just sit there and just walk to my office. 29:42 I greet people when I'm going by. So I say hi to Nigel who's sitting there at the same table every day this winter quarter uh down uh in the winter garden here at the University of Chicago. I say hi to Keith and Mario and Linda on my way to the elevator often who are down there. These are often our staff people or uh other folks around in the business school. When I get up the elevator onto my floor, I walk past uh Jane's office and Eric's office. 30:11 uh Emma's office, Virginia's office on my way. And I say hi to people, right? Hi, Eric. Hi, Jane. Hi, Emma. Morning, Virginia, when I go by. Now, it's not taking me a lot of time, right? It's not slowing me up from anything. It's not really interrupting them too much. They're just getting started with their day. But it makes that moment brighter, right? It makes that walk better. Virginia came by my office the other day. I've gotten to know her. She's one of our new junior faculty. She came by my office. uh 30:40 to talk about the book that I've been working on to talk through it, because she found that interesting, she's an economist. I don't think she'd have done that before if I hadn't said hi. It's been nice. So, you know. So there's small, little initiatives, you just have to make the choice. They don't have to be massive things. There are many opportunities that are easy, seem small to us, they end up being, I think, 31:09 much, much bigger than we imagine them to be. And we just choose not to take them. And that seems like a tragedy. And once you start looking for these moments, these opportunities, you walk to get coffee at the office or something. Take a friend with you. Ask a colleague to walk with you. Ideas come out of those. Connections come out of those. Well, being comes out of those. You never know where it's going to go. Can you, for my listeners, discuss or share the experiment and how 31:38 people underestimate how much they'll enjoy talking to strangers or the letters of gratitude. It's your choice, you can do both. I mean, can share my own personal, know, living that. um It remains with me. I would love that. You do that. That would be great. know, the enjoying talking to strangers is uh during the last week of the course of designing, right? 32:06 a good life, we literally had to, um I think we had to report back and we had to do a kind act towards somebody that we didn't even know. Right? Yeah. Yeah. We were randomly assigned or we, right. I think you were, right. In that case, I asked you to go on and a random act of kindness for somebody. Exactly. An act of kindness. And it was amazing that then the person reacted. so it was a very, it was aha moment. Again, I'm 32:36 This was seven years ago, eight years ago. So I'm drawing a blank, but I just recall it was an amazing experience. we all kind of got to know each other's names. We were like 80 students in the classroom at that time. Another thing that I do recall with fondness is writing a thank you letter, graduate letter. you gave us the op, it was prior to getting to campus, we were to write a letter. 33:03 we could actually share with you who we writing that to. And that person had the opportunity to share with you what they felt or not. So it was kind of blind. And I did go ahead and write a thank you letter to a color out Betsy Berkamer. She's also been in my podcast, influential person in my life. uh And uh lo and behold, she wrote to you and as did other people that were recipients of a thank you letter that was two paragraphs. It made their day. 33:32 But the questions you ask, how did, you you had to get the guts up to write that letter, right? Because you had to really be touchy-feely and share a specific event for which you felt gratitude. So, yeah. So that's an, so these, the, the choice to reach out and engage with other people or hold back crops up in lots of places. So one of the things we know as psychologists is if you want to have a good day, one thing to do is to think about somebody else who you really appreciate and feel grateful to and make their day. 34:02 by writing a note to them and explaining why you feel grateful to them. What's interesting- that here on the podcast on the Founder's Standby. So this is major. Say that again. If you wanna have a good day, reach out to somebody else and make them have a good day by explaining why you're grateful to them. What's interesting though is if you ask people, can you think about somebody you feel grateful to, but who for whatever reason you haven't reached out to express this? Almost everybody can right away think, oh yeah, I can think of somebody. Why do those people exist? 34:32 Why haven't you told them? There are lots of reasons why, but one is often, it's gonna be weird. Is this the right time? What am I gonna say? Can I really put into words? All of these steel bars in front of us that we think are so powerful, but they turn out to be pasta noodles when you actually sit down to write them. So what I have you do in my class towards the end is I have you think about this person, sit down, write a note to them. 34:59 anticipate how they're gonna feel, right? If you think that they're not gonna, you you underestimate how positive it's gonna be for them, or you overestimate how awkward or weird it's gonna be, right? That creates friction. That's a barrier to reaching out and engaging them. That's your avoidance voice shouting a little too loudly in your ear, that cringe voice, that you shouldn't do this. And we can find out whether that's calibrated. So I had you predict how the recipient would feel, how- um 35:28 the extent to which they'd be surprised to learn what you're grateful for, extent to which they'd be surprised to receive how positive or negative they would feel and also how awkward they would feel. I then, if you were willing to share with me the recipient's email address, I reached out and said, well, student of my class, um sent you a gratitude note as part of a class exercise. uh They thought of you for this. And I would love it if you could just tell me how that made you feel. Maybe terrible, maybe great. 35:58 but they go to the survey, they fill it out. And then we just compare those numbers essentially. And the students are not confused. You weren't confused that this would be positive. You thought it would be good. What was surprising or what's super robust is that it's even more positive than that. So Brenda, your little two paragraphs that seemed like nice, nice, but they were really, really nice to the person who received it. You thought they would be, uh 36:27 kind of powerful, they were really powerful. She probably printed that out. I had a student this year say in class that their recipient, who was a relative of theirs actually, their recipient asked, can I print it out and put it on the wall? Oh, that's amazing. Of course they do. Yes. It matters a lot. Surprisingly a lot. That's the important thing. Surprisingly a lot. 36:56 I could go on and on with more examples of the experiments that Professor Epley made us do in class that have marked uh my life. uh I use a lot of these things with my clients or even my students. And one of which is I do have the personal responsibility statement that we wrote at the end of our... uh 37:20 with you and it had to be short and sweet. You framed it, gave it to us. want it. If we ever want to change it, we had, you know, uh a beeline to you. You can send me a note. I'll change it for you. I'll send you new one for sure. And I framed it, framed it and printed out because otherwise you never would. Right. And then it's almost like it's an accountability manager. Right. We have Professor Epley who holds us accountable. Here, by the way, is mine. Yeah. You want to see mine? 37:48 I didn't know you were going to mention it, but yeah, here it is right here. Yeah, mine's here. And actually, because I asked my students, oops, I don't know whether you see it too well. There it is. Yeah. There it is. Signature, sorry. Sorry, because I have that screen. uh And yes, I even have some students that say, Professor McKay, but it's really hard for me to write mine when you share yours. of course, I'll share it. Yeah. 38:13 You may remember I put mine up in class. I showed you in the last class what mine was. Yeah. Yes. Yes. So yes, tell me. Yes. Go on. So the purpose of that is this is really about sustainability, I think, and resilience in organizations that the business case for ethics for being good out there isn't just that it feels good, sometimes even surprisingly good, which is really what's in the book and in a little more social. 38:43 which I describe in lots of different ways. But uh the business case for ethics is really one about resilience and sustainability. That you can be a schmuck for a little while and take money from people and succeed. You can lie and cheat and steal for a little bit. It's very hard to do that for a long time. Wow. People don't want to work with you. They don't want to work for you. uh They don't want to lend you money uh if they think you're uh unethical and shady. 39:13 And so for an organization, way to design one, for founders, the way to design one that is resilient and sustainable is to make sure that your values, your mission is front and center in front of everything that you do. so identifying a powerful, identifying an actionable mission statement, like your personal responsibility statement, this is at the organizational level, is a critical first step because everything else can be woven out of that. 39:43 Those ethics have to be kept top of mind all the time, woven into how you hire people and fire people and promote people and evaluate people and what you talk about day to day and what your norms are in the organizations, what activities you do, how you financially compensate people, what kinds of non-financial incentives you have in your organization. All those need to be tied to the mission statement and to the values that those suggest so that they're kept top of mind when you're out there in the world. So they become more of your first thought. 40:13 rather than needing to be your second thought. And the personal responsibility statement functions at an individual level that way. uh It prompts you to think about what is the thing you wanna have top of mind guiding you when you're out there in the world. So mine is to teach and research so that people are inspired to make wiser decisions and live better lives. Okay, that's what I focus on. 40:39 m Mine is always be original creative, loving, giving back, thankful, spontaneous, daring yourself while being content with enough. And my podcast is actually one of those creative outlets for me. now into my fourth season, it's been amazing. You know what I like with, you know what I didn't see, m wouldn't have seen when you wrote that, but do now is the last part being satisfied with enough. That's an important bit of self. 41:06 compassion there to recognize we do what we can do, nothing more, nothing less. And we give it all we got and that is enough. So the idea is that just like with a mission statement, if you can keep that top of mind guiding your behavior, you'll be a better organization if you design that well. Same thing is true for individuals. Well, before we go to my last three questions, which is really uh the essence of what I do with... uh 41:34 Next Act Advisors, my consulting firm around resilience, purpose, and scalable. I really wanted to give you an opportunity to let my listeners know how to connect with you. It will be in the show notes. And specifically, you do speaking, you're a keynote speaker and you can be hired in different, so can you? 41:58 share a little bit of how we can connect with you and to what do you typically like to speak about when you are um hired as a speaker? Yeah, so I do a lot of uh public speaking, which I think of as just another avenue for teaching about our research, which I think is meaningful for people and can be very powerful. The speaking agency that I use is WSB. They're in Washington, DC. They're fabulous people. And I can talk about 42:28 A few things I can talk about why we misunderstand each other and how to help people understand each other better, which is really about management and leadership, all of those essential skills. And then the work that I'm doing now about human sociality is really a lot about organizational culture, uh happiness and learning. But a lot of it's about organizational culture, I think of it as. And how we uh might act in ways 42:56 uh that don't optimize our culture in ways that make it sustainable or keep us resilient or keep us happy and motivated in organization or learning as much as we could. The individual stuff people also take out of this as well. The book is really written at the individual level for you to think about yourself and your own life and why we might just like we don't act maybe exercise as much as we ought to, why you might not be as social as you could. Thankfully, exercising sucks, it's unpleasant. So we all know that. 43:26 That's hard. reaching out and connecting with other people. know. I know. Thank you. But reaching out and connecting with other people is positive. know, like, you know, it's surprisingly positive. So that's an easy habit. That's an easy habit to make. So I talk a lot about how, you know, where these barriers come from and what you can do in my presentations, what you can do to turn these into habits to make your life consistently better, resiliently. 43:54 And then for connecting with me, do use LinkedIn. I don't use a lot of social media because it makes me miserable. But I do, I have been having fun a little bit recently using LinkedIn. So that's a way, but you can also email me. That's probably the easiest way. All right. So all of this will be in the show notes and, and your book, a little more social will be released on May 19th. There'll be a launch party. I believe it's, it's available on Amazon and bookshop. 44:23 and you have your own website. again, this will be provided in the show notes. Well, I like to do around the Robin lightning question, so my guests, all of my guests get to answer three questions. I'm passionate about resilience, purpose, and scalable or sustainable. And so I'd like to ask you, Professor Apley, what does resilience mean to you? It means being able to accept the negative things that happen in our life by 44:51 but by continuing to carry on with it. So one habit that I've picked up, I don't remember that I actually did it deliberately. I sign off all of my emails, typically, not always, but usually, and I type these out. This isn't like a form with onward. um And it's kind of a mantra I keep in my mind. uh Research is hard. There's a lot of failure. There's a lot of frustration. 45:21 Writing papers is hard, getting published is hard, speaking is hard, teaching is hard. It's all hard stuff. I mean, we're all doing lots of hard things, but they're those hard things. And there are lots of setbacks. And in academia, it gets personal because the ideas are yours, just like founders, right? These ideas are your baby. They are precious to you. And when they don't work or when they're threatened, that is hard and it's threatening. But you can't get mired in that. It's easy to get stuck in that. And so I try to... 45:50 This is just a little thing I do to keep myself focused on, all right, what's next? Now what? Onward. We're gonna carry on with this. That's resilience to me. I love it. Thank you. Purpose. What does purpose mean to you? Yeah, purpose is more, I think, the long run drive. Like, why am I doing this? um What's the meaning of my work? Which is usually not something you see right in the work itself. It is above the work. It's bigger than the work. It's what's in your personal responsibility statement, right? 46:21 My research is really oriented towards trying to identify wisdom, right? That's understanding. That's what all scientists try to do. We try to understand. I don't try to advocate. I don't tell you what to do. I try to figure out what the facts are as best I can. And so that concept of wisdom, for me, that's my purpose. Just to try to figure out wisdom. That's the long run goal, the high level goal. I think that is essential for me. It's also, it is perfectly aligned with 46:50 what I'm trying to do as a researcher. Amazing. So my second to last question, scalable or sustainable? can be anything. So scalable I struggle with. As a behavioral scientist, that is hard. It's hard to take individual stuff and increase it at scale, in part because the things that you do to increase something at scale are not the things you do to make an individual life better. So at scale, 47:18 You typically don't target people's beliefs. You navigate around them in some way. So you don't tell people they ought to play more with their neighbors. You build a playground. So they're different approaches. uh So scalable, I struggle with a little bit. try to, in my research, because I'm understanding individual minds, that's where I focus. And so I make it purposefully personal, our researches. Sustainable, though, 47:47 I think our research is really all about in many ways is that at the end of the day, at the end of our experiments are questions, dependent variables. And those dependent variables are typically these days about wellbeing, some measure of wellbeing and happiness. And that is the thing that you need for sustainability to keep things going, right? To sustain yourself. 48:17 is some positive reward. That's what sustains action. m And that's what our work focuses on, think, sustainability in part because for understanding social misunderstanding, the social misunderstanding creates friction. It ruins relationships, causes ah conflict and hostility, which is not itself sustainable. We're trying to encourage some insight into what the opposite would look 48:48 Last question, Professor Epley, did you have fun in the sandbox today? It's very fun, It's great seeing you, Brenda. Makes me regret I didn't do it uh the other times you asked, but it is a lot of work to write a book. It is exhausting. it leads my students to, my PhD students and postdoc doing research with me to contemplate homicide if I don't get to their paper soon. So anyway. Well, with that. 49:17 I let's sign off. You did enjoy yourself to my listeners. If you like this episode with Professor Epley, Nicholas Epley, sign up for the monthly release where founders, business owners and professionals um share their own experiences on building scalable, resilient, purpose-driven organizations, profits for good, and making the world a better place. So thank you until next month.

Fantasy Baseball Live! – May 24, 2026Segments 1 and 2 – Review the weekend gamesAdditional Notes:1.With the struggles of Steven Kwan this season, Travis Bazzana has been moved to the leadoff spot.a.What is your assessment of him so far this season?b.When do we pull the trigger on Steven Kwan and throw him on the waiver wire – he's hitting .199 with 1 home run and 2 SB. Granted, he also has a .224 BABIP, so I would expect a correction. But the xERA is still only .223. Yikes!2.Kevin Alcantara is getting another shot. He can't hit, but there is speed and power. Your thoughts.a.BTW, quietly Spencer Jones was demoted last week. The fanfare of a demotion is never the same as that of a promotion.3.So it's not Franklin Arias at shortstop, the Red Sox are turning to Marcelo Mayer and his .216 batting average and .286 OBP. a.I really missed on this one. The bat speed is clearly there – ranking in the top quartile of the leagues, but his 87 mph EV and 9% of loft is making him an easy out. Makes great contact, it's just weak.i.Your thoughts?4.Gerrit Cole returned and the velo was spot on. The swing miss of his secondary stuff was not quite there but overall he looked good.a.Your thoughts?5.Cristopher Sanchez has pitched 37.2 of scoreless innings. How is that possible? He's also pitching extremely deep into games. Just dominant.6.Jonah Tong quietly got the call but it appears he will pitch out of the bullpen.a.Any interest?7.Taj Bradley is back, touching 100 mph and shoving it. On Saturday, he pitched 5 innings of one run ball, striking out 7.8.Zack Wheeler has been dominant since returning from TOS. I thought pitchers didn't come back very well from that? Segment 3 – Waiver WireSegment 4 – Closer ReportClose

Chuck Todd opens with a brutal verdict on the emerging Iran "deal": it's just a worse version of the Obama agreement Trump once tore up, Iran has effectively avoided every stated goal Trump and Israel set out to achieve, and Tehran retains control of the Strait of Hormuz — meaning this is unambiguously a loss for the United States, no matter how the administration tries to spin it. He argues Trump bit off far more than he could chew, that Bibi Netanyahu put his faith into Donald Trump (which never ends well), and that America's standing has been diminished in ways that will reverberate for years. Iran's regime won't be able to repress its own people forever, He notes, but the window to actually topple it during the protests was missed — and Gulf state allies will now be dealing with the Iranians for much longer than they bargained for, having quietly hoped the U.S. and Israel would do their dirty work for them. The political damage at home is just as severe. He cites the Wall Street Journal christening the past seven days as "the week that broke Trump's hold on Congress," with the president now underwater on every single issue, consumer confidence unlikely to recover before the midterms, the Senate unable to fund DHS through reconciliation because Trump makes bipartisan solutions impossible, and his January 6th slush fund producing a backlash that won't go away — with Republican senators visibly wavering. Chuck's verdict on the lame duck arriving early: this is a failed first two years of the Trump presidency, and the stronger his grip on the party, the weaker that party becomes in general elections. He blasts Todd Blanche for turning the DOJ into Trump's personal legal team (Blanche should be impeached, Todd argues, and nothing coming out of this DOJ can be trusted), tears into the long-awaited DNC autopsy of the 2024 loss as paralyzed, tone-deaf, and poorly thought-out — naming Ken Martin as the wrong person to lead the DNC and noting that the simple truth Democrats can't bring themselves to face is that the party is perceived as too liberal in a country with more conservatives than progressives. He flags Mike Duggan dropping out of the Michigan governor's race after his hoped-for contentious Democratic primary never materialized, and Tulsi Gabbard's resignation as DNI proving that the position itself was never really necessary Then, former Marine sniper AJ Pasciuti — author of the new book Dark Horse and host of the Combat Story podcast — joins the Chuck Toddcast for one of the most riveting and clear-eyed conversations about military service, leadership, and the realities of modern war. Pasciuti was 16 years old on September 11th, enlisted at 17, and eventually became the Marine who led the team that killed "Juba" — the notorious Iraqi sniper who uploaded videos of his American kills to the internet to taunt the U.S. military. He walks listeners through the entire hunt: how Marines studied Juba's uploaded footage to identify his patterns, how the team set a trap, how Pasciuti spotted Juba in his hide by catching the glint off the lens of a Sony Handycam, and how he knew within minutes that they'd gotten him — while emphasizing that he may have pulled the trigger but it was an entire team that brought Juba down. Pasciuti reflects on the strange experience of fighting enemies who saw themselves as freedom fighters rather than terrorists, why attention to detail is the trait that weeds out most sniper candidates, and how snipers are ultimately meant to combat the enemy emotionally as much as physically. The conversation broadens into a sweeping meditation on what military service teaches you about America — and where Pasciuti worries the country is heading. He calls the military one of the last bastions of the American dream, where opportunity is real but has to be earned, and argues that a culture promoting service to the greater good over the accumulation of wealth would make America measurably healthier.. Pasciuti is openly worried about political leadership infecting the values of the military, makes the case that empathy must be viewed as a strength rather than a weakness in military leadership, and insists his book is political but not partisan — it's about values. He offers a vital warning that the Taliban proved asymmetrical warfare can defeat a stronger foe, that drone warfare is dangerously dehumanizing combat by reducing casualties to dollars and cents, and that the most important thing any soldier carries home is their soul intact — something he says becomes harder every year as the social contract between America and its veterans erodes. Pasciuti describes seeing fear rather than hatred in the eyes of a dying enemy combatant, a moment that has stayed with him, and explains why he can't support any politician who describes a political opponent as an enemy. He shares his experience running for city council and personally knocking on thousands of doors, his frustration with the financial barriers to entry in modern politics, and his belief that current discourse simply doesn't allow for real dialogue. He closes with the most powerful observation of the episode, made for Memorial Day: the holiday isn't about those who came home — it's about those who didn't — and anyone calling for war should be required to first sit down and have a conversation with a Gold Star family. Finally, Chuck hops into the ToddCast Time Machine for a thoughtful Memorial Day reflection on how countries honor their war dead — and how the rituals they choose reveal who they understand themselves to be. He traces Memorial Day back to its actual origins in the Civil War and its 600,000 American dead, including the powerful and often-forgotten story of formerly enslaved people who reburied Union soldiers from a mass grave to give them the dignified resting place their country had failed to provide. He explains that the date was chosen not because of a specific battle but because of when flowers bloom, that Southern states kept parallel remembrance traditions for the Confederacy, and that Memorial Day's secondary role as the unofficial start of summer has always made it a uniquely American hybrid of grief and gathering — which, Chuck argues, is actually one of its virtues, because coming together is how communities find common ground. He surveys how other nations approach the same task: WWI created a uniquely Canadian identity around remembrance, Russia centers its V-Day celebrations on WWII triumph as the foundation of national identity, Germany approaches its war dead cautiously and somberly with a deep awareness of historical responsibility, and Japan frames remembrance through loss, peace, and explicit anti-war reflection. His larger argument is that the story and tone of a country's remembrance day reveals exactly how it understands itself — what it celebrates, what it confronts, and what it would rather not look at. He closes with the smallest but most important reminder of the day: you don't say "Happy Memorial Day." He also answers listeners’ questions in the “Ask Chuck” segment. Predict the action all the way through the finals. Sign up now for your twenty-five dollar bonus on https://fanduel.com/predicts Link in bio or go to https://getsoul.com & enter code TODDCAST for 30% off your first order. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to https://Quince.com/chuck for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Thank you Wildgrain for sponsoring. Visit http://wildgrain.com/TODDCAST and use the code "TODDCAST" at checkout to receive $30 off your first box PLUS free Croissants for life! Timeline: (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements) 00:00 Chuck Todd’s introduction 04:00 Pending Iran deal looks like a worse version of Obama’s deal 04:45 Iran looks to have avoided all of Trump + Israel’s stated goals 05:15 Iran retains control of Strait, that means this is a loss for Trump 06:15 Trump is capitulating, and this diminishes America’s standing 07:15 Administration hoping to sweep Iran under the rug in time for the midterms 08:00 Normally, America would be leading Ebola response. Trump destroyed USAID 08:45 Helping with disease outbreaks was about protecting us at home 10:00 Unlikely the Iranian regime will be able to repress their people forever 11:00 Trump bit off more than he could chew and needs an offramp 11:45 Bibi put his faith into Donald Trump, which never goes well 13:00 Trump hires flawed people that could only work for him. Makes them loyal 14:15 Politics infects every decision Trump makes 15:45 Gulf state allies will have to deal with Iran for much longer now 16:30 Missed the window to topple the regime during the protests 18:00 Gulf states were hoping U.S. and Israel would do their dirty work 18:30 Trump was worst possible commander in chief for this moment 19:30 It’s a big loss for Trump, but he had no choice but to end the war 22:00 New polling shows Trump approval tanking, huge generic Dem advantage 23:45 WSJ dubs the past week, “The week the broke Trump’s hold on Congress” 25:00 Trump is underwater on every issue 26:00 It’s highly unlikely consumer confidence will rise before the midterms 27:00 Trump is directly responsible for higher inflation and cost of living 28:00 Senate cannot find way to fund DHS through reconciliation 29:30 Trump makes any bipartisan solution impossible 30:15 Todd Banche is making DOJ Trump’s personal attorneys 31:45 Can’t trust anything this DOJ says. Blanche should be impeached* 33:15 Trump’s J6 slush fund is likely illegal and has GOP senators wavering 34:15 Backlash to slush fund isn’t going away 35:45 The stronger Trump grips the party, the weaker it is in general elections 36:30 The lame duck is here. This a failed first two years of Trump’s presidency 37:15 DNC finally releases autopsy of 2024 election loss 37:45 Ken Martin is the wrong person for the DNC chair. In over his head 38:15 The simple fact of the matter is the party is perceived as too liberal 40:45 There are more conservatives than progressives, need to win the moderates 42:00 Autopsy offering gubernatorial wins as a counterpoint is tone deaf 43:45 Trump’s electoral strength doesn’t translate when he isn’t on ballot 44:30 DNC was in a no-win situation with the autopsy 45:15 Seems like the autopsy was just going through motions, poorly thought out 46:30 DNC is paralyzed, in need of new leadership 48:30 Mike Duggan drops out as independent in MI governor’s race 50:00 Duggan counted on contentious primary & that didn’t happen 52:00 Duggan didn’t want a Republican elected and dropped out 52:30 Tulsi Gabbard resigns. DNI post shown to not be necessary 53:00 The CIA has won the “turf battle” amongst intel agencies 54:30 Gabbard isn’t the first DNI that’s been marginalized. 55:15 It’s easy to eye roll Don Jr & Hunter Biden… Their fathers screwed them up 1:03:30 AJ Pasciuti (Dark Horse) joins the Chuck ToddCast 1:05:30 If you wrote the book 10 years ago, how would it have been different? 1:07:00 You gain extra perspective about “why” when more time has passed 1:07:45 Leadership is currently in very short supply 1:09:45 The book is a love letter and thank you to people who shaped AJ’s life 1:11:45 The military is one of the last bastions of the American dream 1:12:45 Was 16 years old on 9/11 and the attack inspired AJ to enlist at 17 1:13:45 How did you identify that you had the skills to be a sniper? 1:15:15 Gunnery Sgt. Jackson helped set AJ on his trajectory 1:16:00 What is training for a sniper like? 1:17:00 Attention to details is the trait that weeds out most sniper candidates 1:17:45 Snipers have to be self-dependent, must rely on yourself for survival 1:19:00 Snipers are meant to combat the enemy emotionally, scare them 1:19:45 “Juba” may not have been just one enemy sniper & hunted Americans 1:20:15 Juba uploaded videos of sniper kills of Americans to the internet 1:21:00 Watching the videos allowed marines to understand Juba’s patterns 1:21:30 Set up a trap for Juba and Juba fell into it 1:22:30 AJ knew they had killed Juba within minutes 1:23:30 Caught a glint of the lens of a Sony handycam to spot Juba 1:24:45 AJ may have pulled the trigger, but it was an entire team that got him 1:26:15 Marines were shocked that people would fight for a tyrant like Saddam 1:27:00 We viewed the enemies as terrorists, they viewed themselves as freedom fighters 1:28:45 Does the message to the troops today seem different than when you served? 1:29:45 When we send Americans into conflict, it must be for a just cause 1:30:15 There’s a responsibility that comes with having the greatest military in history 1:31:15 Are you worried political leadership is infecting the values of the military? 1:32:15 Leadership needs to project values people are inspired to defend 1:34:00 Military leadership needs to view empathy as a strength, not a weakness 1:35:00 The book is political but not partisan. It’s about values 1:36:45 A culture that promotes services to the greater good is healthier 1:38:30 If the culture promotes service over wealth, we’d be better off 1:39:00 Mandatory service in Israel has helped to bond their society 1:41:30 Service strips away the illusion that we succeed alone 1:42:45 Veterans aren’t easily categorized in their politics 1:43:30 Military provides an opportunity, but you have to earn it 1:45:30 Competitive advantage for the military is to think, adapt & react quicker 1:46:45 Marine culture should create soldiers that are problem solvers 1:47:45 Taliban found that asymmetrical warfare could defeat a stronger foe 1:50:00 We have to better prepare for asymmetrical warfare 1:50:45 The American Revolution was fought with asymmetrical warfare 1:51:30 Drone warfare dehumanizes war. Casualties counted in dollars and cents 1:52:45 War is a chess game, and modern tech has leveled the playing field 1:54:45 Have to avoid being dehumanized by war 1:55:30 Saw an enemy combatant dying, saw fear in his eyes, not hatred 1:56:15 Wrote the book not to glorify war, but to tell the realities of it 1:57:45 The hardest part of coming home was doing so with your soul intact 1:59:00 The social contract with our soldiers must be protected 2:00:15 How are you able to publicly express your experience when many can’t? 2:02:30 Can’t support someone that says a political opponent is an enemy 2:03:30 Tell us about your podcast “Combat Story” 2:05:00 Ran for city council, personally knocked on thousands of doors 2:06:30 Our current politics doesn’t allow for dialogue 2:08:45 There’s a financial barrier to entry into politics 2:11:30 Memorial Day is tough, it’s about those who didn’t come home 2:12:00 Anyone calling for war should have a conversation with a gold star family 2:15:15 Chuck’s thoughts on interview with AJ Pasciuti 2:16:00 ToddCast Time Machine 2:16:30 Every country honors war dead, but don’t do it the same way 2:17:15 Memorial Day was borne out of the civil war and 600k Americans dead 2:18:00 Formally enslaved people reburied union soldiers from mass grave 2:18:45 Holiday is also about who gets remembered in our national story 2:19:15 Date was chosen due to flowers blooming & not a specific battle 2:20:30 Southern states kept remembrance traditions for the confederacy 2:21:15 Memorial Day also marks the unofficial start of summer 2:21:45 Gathering together is an important way to find common ground 2:22:45 Different memorial traditions & rituals in other countries 2:23:30 WW1 created a unique identity in Canada 2:24:00 Russia celebrates V-Day, triumph in WW2 central to identity 2:24:45 Germany remembers war cautiously and somberly 2:25:30 Japan remembers war through loss, peace and anti-war reflection 2:26:15 Other memorial rituals around the world 2:27:45 Story and tone of remembrance days are how countries view themselves 2:28:45 You don’t say “Happy Memorial Day” 2:30:00 Ask Chuck 2:30:15 Isn’t it odd that we know so little about attempted Trump assassins? 2:37:00 Why didn’t Dems lean into “Trump Lie Trackers” more in campaigns? 2:41:00 Does the “Epstein Class” framing feel stronger than the “1%”? 2:45:00 Did “No Child Left Behind” do real damage to civics education? 2:51:15 Does the 2.5 swing in presidential elections show most voters are locked in?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Join Phil Perry as he breaks down all 32 starting quarterbacks ahead of the 2026 season. Who are this years biggest risers and fallers? Also, Phil digs into his Mailbag, and Kevin Byard explains how he gets so many interceptions 06:00 - The A-List QBs 17:30 - The Alien Tier QBs 24:30 - The Imperfect, but We're glad to have you! QBs 28:50 - Don't Love it, But we have hope ! QB's 34:10 - You're on the clock! QBs 39:20 - Have to see it QBs 42:10 - Makes you nervous QBs 44:45 - Seen Enough QBs 46:55 - Phil's Mailbag 01:00:20 - Kevin Byard talks Interceptions

In this UK personal finance Q&A episode, Pete Matthew and Roger Weeks answer six listener questions covering pensions, retirement planning, investing, and mortgages. You will hear practical guidance on topics like using UFPLS and ISAs for gifting, whether dividend income is a sensible retirement strategy, and what to consider before consolidating multiple pensions into one provider. The episode also tackles planning priorities, including how to sense-check your annual financial review, when it is worth switching to a higher-equity pension fund, and how to balance pension contributions versus ISA funding and mortgage overpayments. If you are looking for clear, jargon-free retirement and wealth-building advice in a UK context, this one is packed with real-world considerations and next-step thinking. Shownotes: https://meaningfulmoney.tv/QA50    02:24  Question 1 Hello gents, My wife and I are hopefully about 5 years off retirement starting at 60, and thinking about options for gifting. We are both planning to stay within the basic band, but if plans go well we hope to support our kids while we're still alive with help towards a house deposit or similar. Am wary that a large withdrawal from a DC pot would likely take us into high rate tax. This would be mainly on me as we'd plan to spend my wifes smaller DC pot down during 60-67 to max personal allowance before state pension kicks in. Is there any downside if I immediately draw UFPLS from my DC up to the top of the basic rate threshold, and putting excess into a cash or S&S ISA? That would then build up tax free and be used to fund family gifts (or perhaps replacing a car). my thinking is - the portion we move to ISA is still effectively part of the retirement portfolio - just held in a different wrapper. thanks for your priceless information (for education and information only not guidance!) over the years. long may it continue! cheers, Richard   07:15  Question 2 Hello Pete and Rog, Loving the Podcast having only found it recently.  You're doing great work. I've bought and read your retirement book, signed-up for an intro call with Pete and am thinking about doing your course. In the meantime, and I know this is greedy, I have three questions.  I think they'll be interesting to your listeners, though, so here we go... First, what are your thoughts on funding retirement income completely or mostly from dividends / coupon payments, rather than capital withdrawal?  For me it seems very attractive because I can draw-down the income on a quarterly basis while not touching the capital.  That makes me feel safer from having to sell in a down-market.  I can also expect the capital to grow a bit over time, at least the equity generating dividend element.  That said, I've seen one of the other retirement finance podcasters say that technically it doesn't matter whether you take income or capital. Second, if I adopt an UFPLS approach to my pension and, rather than take a large tax free sum one-off, I take the 25% of each withdrawal as tax free, how does that work in the future in two respects.  First, can the government later change the rules and say that I can no longer take 25% as tax free?  I assume they can, which would be worrying.  Second, does the lifetime £268k limit for tax free cash still apply cumulatively over-time i.e. can I only continue to take 25% of my withdrawals as tax free up until they cumulatively sum to £268k?  Or, am I allowed to take 25% of each withdrawal, even as the fund might grow in value and then the total of these 25%s over say 10-15 years eventually exceeds £268k? Third, I'm aware the age at which you can take your pension is changing from 55 to 57.  I will be 55 in March 2027, so can access my pension under current rules.  But I will not be 57 when the change kicks-in in April 2028, so am I going to then lose access to my pension for a number of months until I then turn 57 in Mar 2029?  I've heard someone say that there might be an exception for people who have already accessed their pension.  I've also heard it depends on whether there are certain protections/terms around the individual pension fund.  Any advice on whether this would be true would be very helpful. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on any or all of the above. Best of luck with the pod. cheers, Steve 14:52  Question 3 Hi Pete & Roger, Thanks for the advice (go on, name that film) over 2025 and the podcasts. There is a ton of material on you tube covering why pension consolidation is a good thing. How it simplifies the admin. How it makes it easier to track what you have and how it is performing etc. Why wouldn't I want to consolidate all my pensions and what could be the disadvantages of consolidation? Recently I've met with my IFA and for a year now I have been investing heavily into my SIPP. As the IFA he charges for the service he provides and I am happy with that (for now). The charges are low with this provider (Quilter) and it performs well as a medium risk opportunity. My IFA, rightly in my opinion, suggests avoiding keeping my Octopus (previously Virgin) pension as this doesn't offer flexi drawdown and is higher risk than my Quilter SIPP but with only slightly better performance. I have four pensions (SIPP) in total. Now my IFA would of course benefit from me moving all funds to Quilter as he receives a percentage fee on a larger chunk of funds. So that is a warning sign for me as he cannot really be impartial. At the moment I can track my pensions online and I do this almost daily, they all have the relatively same performance and together average about 9.6% over the past 12 months. They are all broadly within a single percentage point of each other. I can see the following arguments to avoid consolidation altogether. 1. Tracking multiple pension funds is not actually hard to do. 2. Maybe when it comes to flexi access draw down it gets a bit more complex to get the tax free elements right to be as tax efficient over the long term but the pension companies track the percentages taken so I cannot see this as a big problem either. 3. Having multiple SIPPS allows me see how they perform against each other. Sometimes one is a little more volatile than the others but in actual fact I'd like to see more volatility on one over the other. Makes things more interesting. Of course that might change in later life so I may choose to draw more heavily on the well performing fund with more risk as I reach later life years. 4. Multiple SIPPS allow me to have funds with different levels of risk associated with the investments, so I might choose one fund to have medium risk and another quite high.  5. The big one for me though. Why, why, why would anyone trust a single SIPP provider with all their future wealth? No matter how well it is managed today and the regulations which are in place and the FSCS protection etc, I just cannot stomach the risk in a single point of failure. Why? So the IT platform could collapse making the funds inaccessible either for a short time or for months. Rogue actors inside or outside the company could arguably sabotage the platform. Yes this is highly unlikely but it can happen. Spreading the risk mitigates this. There is a very real concern. Poor management of the funds could lead to a serious downturn in the investments whether that be short term or longer term. Now the underlying funds might underperform but if that is your key worry then you'd simply change the SIPP investments. When I research reviews on the web for anything I look for the pros and cons and decide which opinions seem most sensible to reach a balanced view. However in the case of pension consolidation everyone seems to recommending consolidation, not one article about keeping them separate. Yippee cay aye (same film) and best regards, Andrew   25:05 Question 4 Hi Pete and Roger, Love the podcast. I have just completed my annual review (thanks for the checklist from earlier seasons) and was wondering if you can suggest if there is anything else I should consider or am missing to help position me better financially. For context I am 37 and married with two children under 5. Pension - I contribute to my workplace pension which is 4% and the company contributes 8% (their max). S&S ISA - I invest 5% of take home pay into two vanguard funds monthly. Children S&S ISA - I invest a small sum monthly into each child's S&S ISA, both vanguard target retirement funds for when they turn 21. Emergency Fund - I have 4 months expenses in a cash isa. Life cover - I have a private policy and 8x salary death in service benefit. Critical illness cover - I have both a private and work policy. Income protection cover - Again I have both a private and work policy, work policy is limited to 36months and private policy is to age 65. Mortgage over payments - I overpay the mortgage monthly with aim of reducing LTV and length of term when current fixed rate ends Debt - I have no major debt I think I am in a good position, but wanted to sense check in case I am missing something. Thanks and keep up the good work. Marc Annual Review: https://meaningfulmoney.tv/2023/03/01/simplify-your-annual-review/  28:22 Question 5 Hello to you both, I just wanted to say I really enjoy your podcast and your YouTube channel. My question relates to my Workplace pension. I want to move from the default lifestyled fund into a 100% global equity fund. I also have a SIPP and an ISA that are fully invested in the same global equity fund and I wanted to bring them all into line. I have a salary sacrifice scheme with a 5% employer match and I wanted to take full advantage of that by paying into a better fund. I can't fully transfer without losing the match so I have left it for too long. I am debt free including the mortgage and I have redirected my mortgage payment into my SIPP. My question is, at 47 3/4, is it too late to switch from the default fund? I'd welcome your take on that. Keep up the good work Kind regards, Matt   31:02  Question 6 Hello Pete and Roger, Really enjoy your podcast and find your advice really insightful, many thanks for what you do. My question is about pension planning and specifically about getting the balance right between pension contributions, ISAs and reducing my mortgage. I'm 46 and have saved from an early working age to build up a total pension pot amount of £510k as of today. I have prioritised my pension over other kinds of investments given the tax related attractiveness of pensions and use salary sacrifice as a way of keeping under £100k income - something important for us as a family in terms of qualifying for child nursery support, plus of course in maintaining my personal allowance. I find my job quite stressful and would like to be able to retire in 10 years at 57, or at least take on a lower paid (maybe even minimum wage) or part time role at that time for a few years until retiring fully. My assumption is that to be able to make this a reality it would be wise to build up my ISA, (which as of today totals only £15k), as a tax efficient bridge until nearer state pension age, and to minimise the need to drawdown excessively on my private pension in the early years. Assuming you concur, my question is would I be best to reduce my pension contributions to enable me to put more in my ISA?  Of course this would mean potentially losing/ reducing my personal allowance. The other factor in play here is my mortgage which is higher than I'd like at £380k. Ideally I'd like to increase my level of mortgage overpayments significantly in order to try to reduce the balance as much as possible over the next decade whilst working full time but again this will see me going over the £100k income level in order to do so.  I know I could probably clear whatever mortgage is remaining in 10 years from my tax-free pension amount but I'd like to minimise taking the tax free money in order to help the pot compound as much as possible to take me through to old age but also help support our two girls who are currently just 8 and 3 in their early lives. Your thoughts and advice would be gratefully received. Many thanks in advance and please do keep up the great work you do! Kind regards, Lee

ARCHIVE EPISODE: This is an archive episode with hosts Joe Giordano and Elena Volkova originally released in 2020.

Pool Sceners. In preparation for the Summer. It's time for Part 1 of 2 of the Pool Scene Road Trip Series with the 26th Anniversary of this week's episode, "Road Trip." One of the movies of our teenage lives whose plot is complete obsolete. Makes you feel old BUT the amount of stories we go into will make you laugh and crave for the nostalgia of 2000. Who doesn't love Stifler?!? We Draft the year 2000 for the "Pool Check" and learn some things plus we remember a media mogul on the "Final Lap." Buckle up and watch the sugar.   BUY YOUR POOL SCENE PODCAST SHIRTS AND STICKERS TODAY!!! DM US ON OUR FACEBOOK TO PURCHASE TODAY!!!   SPREAD THE WORD POOL SCENERS! JOIN THE POOL SCENERS GROUP ON FACEBOOK FOR EXCLUSIVE AND INCLUSIVE CONTENT! LIKE. COMMENT. SUBSCRIBE. RATE AND FOLLOW... APPLE. SPOTIFY. PODBEAN. PODBAY and EVERYWHERE PODCASTS ARE FOUND! LEAVE A 5 STAR REVIEW. WE READ IT ON THE AIR. YOU WIN A PRIZE!!! HAVE AN IDEA FOR AN EPISODE OR A POOL CHECK...MESSAGE US AT ONE OF THE LINKS BELOW. CONTRIBUTE TO THE SHOW ON LINKTREE!! WE GREATLY APPRECIATE IT!! Linktree: https://www.linktr.ee/poolscenepodcast Email: PoolScenePodcast@gmail.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PoolScenePodacst Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/PoolScenePodcast Discord: poolscenepodcast Threads: https://www.threads.com/poolscenepodcast TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/thepoolscenepodcast Twitch: https://twitch.tv/poolscenepodcast YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/PoolScenePodcast

Ryan joins us this week to head back to the pond for another episode of The Way Home. ABOUT: THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 4) When Nick arrives back in Port Haven, Del throws a party like old times. Alice has to keep her distance from Young Colton and Del, but tries to learn more. AIR DATE & NETWORK FOR: THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 4) May 10, 2026 | Hallmark Channel CAST & CREW OF: THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 4) Chyler Leigh as Kat Landry Evan Williams as Elliot Augustine Sadie Laflamme as Alice Dhawan Andie MacDowell as Del Landry BRAN'S THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 4) SYNOPSIS Jacob is busy working at a bar as a bartender. This guy and gal come in to order an espresso martini. Jacob is like we don't do that, we're old school. After they leave, the ghost of Thomas asks him how long he's going to hide for. Alice and Elliot are talking about how Kat is still not home. He catches her up to speed about how his mom did come back at least long enough to write a letter. Just then, Nick comes in! What up old Nick! He's moving back to Port Haven! Him and Claire are moving home. Sam asks Del if she's considered his offer to move in. She says I'm not ready. I want to put that idea on pause. She seems shocked by how cool he is with that. Kat is still behind bars. Cliff shows up and is like alright, spill. Who are you? No ID, no nothing. She doesn't have time to spill before Fern shows up. Nick tells Del that he wants to buy Colton's boat and isn't gonna give up without a fight! Nick's biological father Julian shows up and he takes quite the liking to Del. Do I smell a season 4 love triangle?! Kat questions Fern about Tainted Love again and Fern insists that she's known that song for ages and still doesn't know no Tessa. She also tells Kat that she's the one who drugged her. It was the only way to protect her from the Augustine boys. For some reason, they have it out for her. Kat says well you know they're working for your fiancé Grayson. Fern doesn't believe that. Kat jumps in the pond, both of them upset with each other. Kat gets home and while talking with Elliot and Alice while looking at the bullet. She notices some engraving on it that match engravings on Grayson's gun. She is more convinced than ever that Grayson is a bootlegger. Alice and Kat are talking with Del and she's telling them how she and Colton used to throw the best parties before Alice was born. Del is like maybe we should throw a good ol' party, in honor of Nick's homecoming. Del then gets a knock on the door - there is a flower delivery...from Julian. Kat continues to try to contact Jacob but he still won't answer. So she gets back to looking at Evelyn's old files. She wants to learn more about who Grayson really is, not just what the town's history books say. Alice jumped back in the pond and sees Tessa and Vic showing up for one of Del & Colton's parties. She hears them talk about how they're getting married. Tessa sees Alice looking on from behind a tree. Alice asks her to not tell anyone that she was there or else she'll tell everyone about how she took money from Coyle's that one day. Kat finds a marriage certificate of Grayson's to someone in 1926, but it's not Fern. She also finds out that Grayson had a sister who died young. Alice can't stop herself from sneaking into the house to watch the party. Evelyn gives Del some wine but she doesn't drink it, so she suspects Del must be pregnant. In the present, it's party time! Sam finds out that Julian sent flowers and is like oh hmmm that's interesting. Back in the '80s, Fern comes in and sees Tessa looking at the family almanac and freaks out. She's like YOU'LL NEVER BE FAMILY! Colton is like she's marrying an Augustine. Fern storms off. Everyone is like wtf was that about. In the present, Kat announces to the party that she's closing down the newspaper. She is going to focus on writing a history of Port Haven. Then Julian recites some Shakespeare. Alice walks outside and tries to talk to Fern who is still freaking out. Del comes out and tells her to go to bed and then throws her wine out. Alice overhears Colton come out and ask how they're BOTH doing! They talk about waiting to tell people since it had been such a journey but Colton is convinced 1979 is their year. Alice is like uh oh...knowing that Kat wasn't born in '79. Alice runs back home and gives present day Del a big hug. There's a phone call. It's Jacob, but when she hears singing and laughing in the background, he hangs up. He tells the ghost of Thomas that they're happy, they don't need him. Later that night, Alice tells Kat about how Del was pregnant in 1979. This is news to Alice. The next day, Del and Sam talk. She tells him that he seems too chill with Julian's attention towards her. Makes her feel like he doesn't care about her. She wonders if their relationship is just a distraction from the Jacob situation. When he says if that's what she wants, she's like see you don't fight for us. He says he doesn't want to have to wonder what's going on with her. He doesn't want mystery, he wants her. Elliot surprises Jacob and asks him what's up and asks him to come home and tells him that he's being dumb. He tells Elliot to leave. Alice tells Kat more about the Fern freaking out thing and she figures out that the handwriting for 1800's Jacob's entry is the same handwriting as Tessa's letter to Elliot. AND it's the same for Fern's birth entry. The hypothesis is that Tessa time traveled back to the 1800's with Griff but he left her there which is why she was there in the '20s. They need someone from Tessa's era to come and rescue her. So Kat decides to jump again and decides to bring Nick with her to make sure she's safe. The episode ends with her on horseback. She thinks she sees Colton walking into the woods, so she tries to get her horse to follow. But the horse is freaking out heading into the woods and bucks her off and she's knocked out. Watch the show on Youtube - www.deckthehallmark.com/youtubeInterested in advertising on the show? Email bran@deckthehallmark.com Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

0:30 - CPS 12:35 - Electronic Monitoring 32:33 - Eric Church commencement address at UNC 50:20 - Remembering Rich from Indian Head Park 51:39 - Gordon Chang, author of Plan Red: China’s Project to Destroy America & The Great U.S.-China Tech War, previews Trump’s trip to China. Follow Gordon on X @GordonGChang 01:10:37 - Ted Snider, contributing editor for The American Conservative: Between Iran and a Hard Place. Ted is also a frequent contributor to Responsible Statecraft & Antiwar.com 01:35:41 - Noted economist Stephen Moore: When you’re dealing with an enemy like China you have to use every tool in your chest. Get more Steve @StephenMoore 01:48:18 - Theodore Dalrymple, retired physician and psychiatrist who worked in a general hospital and prison in England, shares details from his two newest books Agatha Christie and the Metaphysics of Murder – available 6/9 & Life at the Bottom: The Worldview that Makes the Underclass 25th Anniversary Edition – available now 02:05:58 - Josh Blackman, Centennial Chair of Constitutional Law at the South Texas College of Law Houston, weighs in on election maps and The Stunning Plan To Reverse The Supreme Court of VirginiaSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

1. God is YHWH — He simply is. “I AM WHO I AM.” — Exodus 3:14
Not becoming… just being. 2. God is one — He cannot be divided. “The Lord is one.” — Deuteronomy 6:4
Not part this… and part that.
Fully God… all the time. 3. God is self-sufficient — He needs nothing. “He Himself gives to all life…” — Acts 17:25
Everything depends on Him. 4. God is eternal — No start, no end. “From everlasting to everlasting…” — Psalms 90:2
Before all things… after all things. 5. God is unchanging — Always the same. “I, the Lord, do not change.” — Malachi 3:6
No shifting. No shadow. 6. God is sovereign — He rules all. “He does according to His will…” — Daniel 4:35
Nothing outside His control. 7. God is holy — Set apart completely. “Holy, holy, holy…” — Isaiah 6:3
No one like Him. 8. God is righteous — Always does right. “The Lord is righteous…” — Psalms 145:17
Perfect in all His ways. 9. God is transcendent — Above all things. “My thoughts are not your thoughts…” — Isaiah 55:8–9
Higher than we can fathom. 10. God is immanent — Closer than breath. “He is not far…” — Acts 17:27
Nearer than we think. 11. God is just — Makes all right. “All His ways are justice.” — Deuteronomy 32:4
Wrong will not win. 12. God is merciful — Withholds what's deserved. “Rich in mercy…” — Ephesians 2:4
Compassion over judgment. 13. God is love — Gives Himself freely. “God is love.” — 1 John 4:8
He moves toward us. 14. God is gracious — Gives undeserved favor. “By grace you have been saved…” — Ephesians 2:8
What we could never earn. 15. God is faithful — Never lets go. “His steadfast love endures forever.” — Psalms 136:1
He will not fail. 16. God is jealous — Wants your heart. “The Lord… is a jealous God.” — Exodus 34:14
He won't share you. 17. God is omnipresent — Everywhere all the time. “Where can I go…?” — Psalms 139:7
Right here… right now. 1. He simply is – He is YHWH 2. He cannot be divided – He is One 3. He needs nothing – He is Self-Sufficient (Aseity) 4. He has no beginning or end – He is Eternal 5. He stays the same – He is Unchanging 6. He rules over all – He is Sovereign 7. He is set apart – He is Holy 8. He always does right – He is Righteous 9. He is above all things – He is Transcendent 10. He is closer than breath – He is Immanent 11. He makes all things right – He is Just 12. He withholds what we deserve – He is Merciful 13. He gives Himself freely – He is Love 14. He gives undeserved favor – He is Grace 15. He never lets go – He is Faithful 16. He wants your heart – He is Jealous 17. He is everywhere all the time - He is Omnipresent

1. Spirit Airlines Bailout Debate A proposed U.S. government bailout of Spirit Airlines ($500 million for ~90% ownership) was considered but ultimately rejected. Government should not own or run private companies. Bailouts are seen as wasteful and ineffective (compared to “burning money” metaphor). Argument that free-market capitalism is more effective than government control. 2. Impact of Spirit Airlines Collapse Emphasis on human consequences, especially job losses. A retired pilot missed his final flight due to shutdown. Received a symbolic sendoff from Southwest Airlines—highlighting solidarity and empathy within the industry. Displaced workers may find jobs elsewhere, but hardship remains. 3. Tucker Carlson He spreads misinformation and makes controversial or extreme statements. Allegations that he: Attacks political figures (especially Ted Cruz). Promotes or normalizes extremist views. Makes contradictory or false claims in interviews. His credibility and audience influence are declining. Heated exchange regarding: Claims of violence and moral responsibility by public officials. Comparisons involving extremism (Nazism, Holocaust references). Sympathizes with authoritarian regimes or controversial figures. Criticizes U.S. policies and capitalism. Promotes anti-American or antisemitic narratives. 6. Pramila Jayapal and Cuban Policy Rep. Pramila Jayapal: Accused of supporting Cuba’s government by encouraging efforts to supply oil. Criticized for: Calling U.S. actions “illegal” or harmful. Describing actions against Venezuela’s Maduro as “kidnapping.” Opposing viewpoint: Siding with communist regimes over U.S. interests. 7. Anti-Communism Argument Major ideological stance: Communism is historically destructive (oppression, poverty, violence). Personal anecdote: Family experience with Cuban communism used to reinforce position. Vision proposed: A post-communist Cuba with: Free markets U.S. alignment Economic investment and tourism growth Please Hit Subscribe to this podcast Right Now. Also Please Subscribe to the 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson and The Ben Ferguson Show Podcast Wherever You get You're Podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show on Social Media so you never miss a moment! Thanks for Listening YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@VerdictwithTedCruz/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/verdictwithtedcruz X: https://x.com/tedcruz X: https://x.com/benfergusonshowYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@VerdictwithTedCruzSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is a preview of a bonus episode! You can find it, along with out five-year backlog of episodes, on our reasonably-priced patreon! This week on the Kill James Bond podcast, we watch our first modern Chinese movie! The Sun is dying, and 17 years ago the unitarty Earth Government decided that the only logical chance was to build 10,000 colossal engines and fly the Earth on a 2,500 year interstellar voyage to Proxima Centauri. Makes sense so far! But some unexpected complications arise on the journey, such as Jupiter gravitationally capturing Earth and pulling it apart.  ----- FREE PALESTINE - With the ceasefire in full effect, the media has returned to ignoring the daily atrocities in Gaza. My friend Ahmed still needs to feed his family and afford medicine. Anything you can kick in would be hugely appreciated. https://chuffed.org/project/150817-please-help-ahmed-and-his-family-get-food-drink-and-medicine And these are some more general links you can support collective efforts with! -The Palestinian Communist Youth Union is doing a food and water effort, and is part of the official communist party of Palestine https://www.gofundme.com/f/to-preserve-whats-left-of-humanity-global-solidarity -Water is Life, a water distribution project in North Gaza affiliated with an Indigenous American organization and the Freedom Flotilla https://www.waterislifegaza.org/ -Vegetable Distribution Fund, which secured and delivers fresh veg, affiliated with Freedom Flotilla also https://www.instagram.com/linking/fundraiser?fundraiser_id=1102739514947848 ----- WEB DESIGN ALERT Tom Allen is a friend of the show (and the designer behind our website). If you need web design help, reach out to him here:  https://www.tomallen.media/ ----- Kill James Bond is hosted by November Kelly, Abigail Thorn, and Devon. You can find us at https://killjamesbond.com , as well as on our Bluesky and X.com the everything app account

For the latest Whisper in the Wings from Stage Whisper, we welcomed back on the director/choreographer/founding artistic director Jessica Burr. She joined us to talk about Blessed Unrest's upcoming production of Body Unredacted. This wonderful piece of theatre was fantastic to learn all about. So hit play and get your tickets today. Blessed Unrest PresentsBody UnredactedMay 9th-17th@ The Makes' SpaceTickets and more information are available at blessedunrest.org And be sure to follow Jessica to stay up to date on all her upcoming projects and productions: blessedunrest.orgjessicaburr.net

Discovering Your BEST Colors and Style Upgrades for Your Closet and Home with Color and Style Consultant, Carla Gasser (Episode 292)   Romans 12:2 NLT “Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.”   *Transcription Below*   Carla Gasser is a Christian author, speaker, and certified color/style consultant known for helping women connect faith with everyday life, focusing on spiritual and inner beauty through decluttering the soul. Based in Ohio, she's the author of The Beauty of an Uncluttered Soul, speaks at women's events, teaches Bible studies, and offers personal style guidance, encouraging authenticity and grace in messy, real-life situations.   Carla's Website   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you walk us through exactly what you do during a color analysis?  What are your best tips for: Make-up, jewelry color, print options, and general styling tips? Now that we have this information, how can we begin to edit and curate our closet?   Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: 134 Fashion Meets Faith with Shari Braendel 251 Wintering and Embracing Holy Hygge with Jamie Erickson   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:12)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:47) Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to the Sue Neihouser team for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.   Carla Gasser is my guest today. Not only is she a color and style consultant, but she's also an author and a Bible teacher. We're going to discuss some very practical ways that you can discover what colors are uniquely best for you and then learn also how you can incorporate those into your closet and into your home. I have been wanting to do an episode like this for such a long time.   During undergrad, I was able to minor in fashion merchandising and even got to study abroad in Europe with a group of about 50 people. It was so exhilarating, and I've just always been drawn to topics like this one. In addition, what excites me about today is the way that Carla will talk about beauty both inside and out.   I can't wait to share this conversation with you. Here's our chat. Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Carla.   Carla Gasser: (1:48 - 1:51) So, great to be with you today, Laura. Thanks for inviting me.   Laura Dugger: (1:51 - 1:59) Well, I am just absolutely fascinated by your work. So, can you explain a little bit more of what you get to do?   Carla Gasser: (1:59 - 3:36) Sure. If we're talking about the outer beauty part of my business, I was trained as a certified color analysis and style consultant by Sheri Brandel, who's the owner, founder, and CEO of Style by Color. What I love most about that training is that we're independent contractors.   So, I was able to take that certification and everything I knew and already incorporated it into what my ministry was. My ministry for the past 20 years is talking about how God makes us beautiful from the inside out. But I've always had this struggle because I've loved fashion, and I've loved dressing, and I've loved outer beauty as well, which is something that God created, right?   So, a couple of years ago after I did the certification, I kind of incorporated it, and it was easier than I thought because God is the author of beauty. God is beauty. So, because I'm a Bible study teacher and I love digging into God's word, I just focused more on that.   And my book and my Bible study is called The Beauty of an Uncluttered Soul. So, those two things just ended up meshing beautifully for me. And it also helped me reach out to a wider audience, women who are interested about outer beauty and fashion and style and color and design, but they're looking for something more, and I could provide that for them too.   So, it's been wonderful. I mean, I've really enjoyed it.   Laura Dugger: (3:36 - 3:51) Well, it's such a unique pairing. And I think, is there anything you'd want to elaborate on for us as believers, as Christians? Why does it matter, both internal and external beauty?   Right.   Carla Gasser: (3:51 - 6:00) I'm speaking about this next week, and I've been starting to incorporate this in when I speak because the world has distorted beauty, right? And they have hijacked it, and they have made it into something that God never designed it to be. But if we look at the other side of it, the church, I feel, sometimes has over-spiritualized inner beauty to the exclusion of outer beauty.   So, I was caught in that tension, and I think many believing women are, well, outer beauty is shallow, inner beauty is spiritual, right? And I say it's not either or, it's and both, right? That if God created the sunsets, and all the beautiful flowers, and the things that make us post these images on Instagram of his natural beauty, then God cares about beauty.   And I love it when it says he created them in Genesis, and it was very good. The only time he uses very good is when he's talking about humans, man and woman. He created them very good.   If you go back to the Hebrew word of very good, it's tov, and it means beautiful. So, when I speak to women, I say, we are going to stop right now, and we are going to say, I was created beautiful. And a lot of women don't say that, can't say that, are afraid to say that.   And I'm here to say yes, and it's okay to express that. And I don't stand up there saying, you have to look like me, or dress like me. I want you to discover your unique style, your unique beauty.   You know, it's not a one size fits all. It's not like, well, this is the trend, so you've got to wear it. I don't want to put any more pressure on women.   I want to free women to embrace their God-given beauty, if that makes sense.   Laura Dugger: (6:01 - 6:12) Absolutely. Well, and one of the ways you do that is through color analysis, but can you walk us through like exactly what you do during a color analysis meeting?   Carla Gasser: (6:12 - 13:55) Color analysis is having a moment, isn't it? And what I'm finding is either if you're my age or older, and I'm in my late fifties, you remember seasonal color analysis, right? And when I start talking color analysis, those women will say to me, well, in the eighties, I was a winter, I was a spring, I was a summer, right?   And what am I now? And then if you talk to my daughter's generation, like twenties and thirties, they're hearing seasonal color analysis come back to, but they're watching it on Instagram and TikTok. And they're like, well, I'm a cool summer.   I'm a neutral winter. And I'm like, what is going on? This is confusing.   So, Sherry Brandel, like I said, the owner and founder of Style by Color was one of the first people who was trained in Color Me Beautiful, the seasonal color system. So, she knows it inside and out. And what she decided to do was to take the tenets, the basics of the seasonal color system, but expand it.   So, we don't, you're not going to walk out of a color analysis telling people you're a winter. We have six unique codes, and our codes are more illustrative of what you are. So, I'm a clear, okay?   There's warm, there's soft, there's cool, there's deep, and there's light. And what we're doing, and I can show a cute little chart here that helps, what we're doing is we're basing it on the seasonal color system, but we're actually giving you more colors. Because what we're doing when I say you're a soft, I am taking the softer colors, palettes, tones, and hues of summer and fall and giving them to you.   So, the other thing that we do that other systems don't do, we take into account your hair. In many of these systems or color analysis appointments, you'll see them put a white cap over a woman's head and just look at her face. We're like, what?   Your hair has so much to do with your overall coloring. I mean, I know it's hard for you to do this but imagine me platinum blonde. Wouldn't I look totally different if I was platinum blonde and this very dark hair I have?   So, we take into account your hair color. And what we're doing is we're doing tonal color analysis, meaning I am looking at your major color dominant characteristics. Like I just said, your hair color, your eye color, your skin tone.   And now I'm not trying to determine whether you're cool or warm or neutral. That got the Color Me Beautiful system into like 24 color codes because they took every season and they broke it down like six ways and it became complicated and crazy. What we're doing is I'm comparing my skin tone to my hair to my eyes.   And we give you a rating of one to five, meaning, and it's really good if we're both on camera here, people are going to see this right away. I'm a five. I am the highest contrast level.   Can we know why? I've got really dark hair and really light skin and light eyes. So, I'm a five.   Now we look at you. You're not a five. You are a lower contrast level because your hair and your skin tone when you turn are pretty similar.   And your eyes kind of are in the middle there. So, I would put you at a three or a two. And that contrast level helps me determine your color code.   Not only that, it helps me determine what prints and patterns you should wear, what jewelry you should wear. I mean, what makeup you should wear? So, that is how we differ.   And I feel that learning the tonal part of this and understanding contrast level was a game changer for me. And that's what I teach my clients. That once you know that it's easy for me to put you in a color code.   I also use these capes behind me that help during a color analysis. But I also do things like I, you know, use patterns. You know, this is a high contrast level pattern.   So, this is going to look good on someone like me, black and white. If I put a black and white on you, you're going to look like a floating head. It's not cohesive.   But what you're going to look better in is something like this because this is medium contrast. Okay, so we do that. We also talk about pop colors.   Everybody, you know, will say, well, don't take red away from me. Red's my favorite color. Don't take blue away from me.   I wear blue all the time. I'm like, I'm not taking hardly any colors away from you. What I'm teaching you is when you go into a store and you want to know what red, well, my red and your red are very different, right?   So, I'm not taking red away from you. I'm just trying to guide you towards the right red. I'm not taking pink away from you.   Oh, one color code I do. Pink away from you. I'm just telling you, you know, I need this pink.   This is my pink, right? That's my yellow. So, that's what we do.   We break it all down. When I do mini color analysis, I'm usually in a boutique and I love working with boutique owners because then I can help people shop right after. But it's a 15-minute quick appointment.   I give you digital downloads of your colors. Like I said, every color codes gets 35 plus colors. And if you have them on your phone, when you're out shopping, you're scrolling and going, oh, I can use this.   Oh, I can use this. Not only in our digital collection, we give you the trending colors twice a year for fall and winter and spring and summer. Because we both know that colors, you know, have moments, right?   Pantone picks their color of the year, which happens to be white this year, which I'm like, that's a little counterintuitive because I don't know that white's a color, but anyways, it's a neutral. So, you have them on your phone and then you can decide and they update. I also have color cards for old school people like me that want the physical representation, and we sell those as well.   And you can put those in your purse, and you can use them. But I tell people, use them for your nail color, use them for your makeup, use them even when you're decorating your home. A lot of people gravitate to the colors that they look good in, and you can use them in other ways or even pairing colors together.   How do we do that? So that is a mini one. And in that one, I'm just giving you your best neutrals, your colors to avoid, your jewelry choices.   But when you come to my home and I do do it, I have a studio in my home, it's an hour and a half to two hour and we go through it all. You know, we go through it all. When I go into your closet, that's a whole different thing.   And I do ask that people have a color analysis before I do a closet edit. Because once we know your colors, then organizing your closet, creating and curating a capsule wardrobe becomes so much easier.   Laura Dugger: (13:57 - 14:08) Okay, we'll have to follow up on that. But first, I'm just so curious, which color person does not get pink, the warm, warm, warm.   Carla Gasser: (14:08 - 17:23) So, those are people usually with Auburn red hair, you know, they're in that category. So, they get all the spices. And they're the opposite of someone like me, like I can't wear anything with like a gold, yellow undertone.   You know, I can't really wear orange, the orange, I have one orange in my palette, believe it or not, but it's super bright. It's not an orange I probably would wear. One of the comments that someone made to me that said they were afraid to get a color analysis because they thought I would take too much away from them.   Right? They would I would take away their favorite colors; I would tell them they don't look good in things they look good in. Most people, it's so interesting, because sometimes when you come to my home, I ask you to bring some clothes with you, like bring something that everyone says when you walk in a room, wow, you look great in that.   And bring something that you don't ever reach for in your closet, because you're not sure of. And people are closer than they think to knowing their, their right colors. Sometimes I kind of shake them up a bit.   But I give them so much that some people say, well, I can't possibly wear all these colors. There's 36 colors here. And I try to tell people focus on your neutrals, because people have different neutrals, right?   Focus on your neutrals and then add one to two pop colors per season. Because if you try to wear every color in there, that you know, your closet is going to be very cluttered and very overwhelming. But it really helps you declutter and focus because there are stores I walk into now that I literally make one loop and I walk right back out.   Because they're all these light colors and palettes and warm tones. And I call it cafe latte dressing that you would look gorgeous in. But for me, so why would I waste my time in that store?   Right, I walk in real quick. And I've taught women how to shop, right? Because how many of us were taught how to shop, we go in, we go to the sale rack, we go in, we look for something that's trending, we go in, and we bring it home.   And we stand in front of our closet every morning and say what, I have nothing to wear. Right? I have nothing to wear because our closets are full of things that don't match with each other, that we don't feel good in, that we might have bought because we thought it was a deal.   But we don't know if they look good on us. We don't know if they work on our body shape. We don't know how to put them together with what we already have.   So, less really is more. I'm not trying to get people to go out and spend thousands of dollars on a whole new wardrobe. I ask, especially in a closet edit, we're going to work first with what you have.   And then you might have to go out and buy one or two key pieces. But really my last closet edit, she had to buy three things at the end. That was it.   To make over, we talked about, we ended up making her at least 35 different outfits with what she already had and going out and buying three pieces. That was it.   Laura Dugger: (17:24 - 20:14) We'll come back shortly after a brief message from our sponsor. With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser team is a RE-MAX agent of Central Illinois, and she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors. For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831.   And you can ask her any real estate questions. Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer. When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home.   And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision. Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process. This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team.   The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market, but Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell. She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process, and she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. We kept saying she's thought of everything, and Sue's continued generosity was astonishing.   I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home and she was knocking on the door dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery. Our daughters also loved getting to know Ms. Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home. So, whether you're looking to buy a home for the first time or looking to upgrade or downsize or making the big decision to move to an assisted living from your home of many years, Sue will be there to help you navigate the big emotions and ensure the process is smooth and stress-free and that the new doors to be unlocked are ready and waiting for more memories to be made.   So, call her today at 309-229-8831 or visit her website at sueneihouser.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Okay, so that also makes me curious when you talk about the colors that you put together.   Yes. Do you use a color wheel, or do you have any practical ways that we can learn how to put different colors together in our home or in our closet?   Carla Gasser: (20:14 - 22:34) Right, that goes back to the contrast level that we talked about, and it also goes back to body shape. So, contrast level is can you wear, you know, high contrast prints or outfits? Like I can wear black and white.   Would I tell you to do that? Probably not. So, when you know what your contrast level is, that not only informs your prints, your patterns, your colors, it informs your outfits.   Here's a quick tip about dressing for your body shape. All right, we talk about inner column versus outer column. So, if you carry your weight in your belly and this is a, you know, I always tell women when I'm speaking to them, place your hands on the one area of yourself that you wish you could camouflage, right?   And some of us go to our hips. Some of us, we all have it, right? But if that is your area, your belly is your area, and I like to camouflage it.   What you want to create is an inner column. How do you create an inner column? So, if you were looking at my outfit right now, an inner column would be that this blue here, I would wear the same color pants.   I've got an inner column. And then I put this jacket over it because when you look at that inner column, there's no waist definition. There's no, it's just an inner column.   It makes me look taller. It makes me look thinner. It, you know, draws the eye up to the face.   We always want to draw the eye up to the face. Now, if your problem area is more your hips and you want to camouflage that, but you've got a smaller waist, then you do an outer column. Whereas with me, again, I keep the blue shirt. I tuck it in, but I wear black pants because black and black.   So, those are just two quick little tips that people could take away based on, you know, an inner column also works well for people who are large chested, who want to kind of camouflage this part, you know, who have kind of a roundness here and outer column again, works for people who also maybe have a more of a pear shaped or, um, not only pear shaped, but like an hourglass figure, an outer column would work better for, does that help?   Laura Dugger: (22:34 - 22:53) Does that make sense? This is so helpful. And I'm wondering, are there any principles that apply to everyone specifically?   I mean, even thinking first when it's summer and when somebody has a tan or when they naturally start graying, how does that work? Does their color change?   Carla Gasser: (22:54 - 25:38) Yes, it does. It does. And we can customize color decks and color codes.   So, I have a few women who are transitioning to gray. They're not there yet, but they're in between. So, what I'm going to do is pull out from their deck, anything that is yellowing or has that warmer undertone and keep her in the cool until, and I also say to people, if you come to me and like you're this one day and you say, Carol, I'm going to go red.   I'm going to be a redhead. I will color code you again for free because that's how much I believe in the system. And that's how much I believe your hair matters for your color code.   So, if you change your color code and you're my color and you say, you know, I'm going to go platinum. Yeah. I just think it'll be fun. Come back. We will. So, you're right.   Your hair has a lot to do with it now in terms of tanning, right? Same thing. I would probably just direct you.   I wouldn't change your color code. I would just direct you to certain colors in your, in your color code more than others. If you're darker or lighter, does that make sense?   That does that's helpful. So, it's perfectly customizable. And that's the whole thing about when I tell people, when I have you as a client, you can go around and tell your friends and brag that you have a stylist because you do, you know, you can text me, you, I get a lot of texts from dressing rooms, women standing there in the mirror, taking the picture, going Carla, does this work?   Does this not work? Do these shoes work? That's what I'm here for.   I want an ongoing relationship. I don't like, I mean, I do one and dones. Okay.   If I'm in a boutique or something and you come in from out of town, you can still contact me. I do virtual, I do, you know, all these kinds of things, but I love having a client as an ongoing relationship because you might change your body, change your season of life, change. You were working now you're not, or you're going back to work, and you haven't been working.   All those things affect what you're going to wear and how you're going to wear and where you shop. I just had a woman who, you know, broke her foot and she's in a boot and she is so upset about this because we just did her closet edit. We just started thinking, well, what shoes should I wear?   So, we've been working together to modify her outfits. We've been working together to get her to a place where she still feels comfortable, but she has to wear this boot. Okay.   We can work around that. We can do that. You know, and I have people who go on vacation.   I have no idea what to pack for vacation. I could only have a carry on. We're going to create a capsule wardrobe for your vacation.   We can do that.   Laura Dugger: (25:39 - 26:09) It is crazy to think of how much this plays into our lives every day. And so, once you learn this, I think it can save you time and money. I'm also thinking of one other principle.   We always hear about the little black dress, but the funny thing is black is the absence of all colors. So, I remember studying that black near the face, even if that's in your palette, that that's not recommended. So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, Carla.   Carla Gasser: (26:09 - 28:18) Yes. I would say black near the face only works for a few of us. You're right.   And I'm one of them, right? Because of this high contrast, but I still like to break it up with color myself. I have an interesting story for you.   I had a friend who really, she should not wear black by her face at all. She is a soft color code. She got invited to a wedding and everyone had to wear black.   She freaked out. I just got my colors done. What am I going to do?   I have to go to this. I said, first of all, we have to respect the bride and groom. Yes.   This is what you want and whatever. What we did, though, is we bought her a huge, chunky leopard necklace. It broke it up and she bought leather leopard shoe shoes and wore the black.   So, there are ways. And I say to people, when I take away black from you and you have all these black clothes at home, I'm like, I don't want you to donate everything to goodwill, but we're going to think of ways to break this up. And one of the ways we break it up near the face is a larger necklace, a scarf, a third piece like this, a vest or a cardigan.   There are ways to do it without going home and saying, oh my word, I have to throw everything away. And then I'll try to redirect those people. Okay, now that you know your neutrals are no longer black, there are a lot of other great neutrals out there.   Dark brown, gray, navy. So, now when you go shopping, don't throw all your black away, but start incorporating other neutrals into your wardrobe that are softer for you and work better for you. And like you asked before, too, are there some colors that everyone can wear?   And I would, I could give you one. There's a couple, but one color that is kind of the universal color that everybody has in about the same shade is teal. It's kind of the couch you're sitting on.   If I read it correctly in your, on the video, teal is kind of a universal color. So, that's something.   Laura Dugger: (28:19 - 28:21) I had no idea. I love that.   Carla Gasser: (28:22 - 28:22) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (28:22 - 28:35) And have you ever even studied the psychology related to colors? For instance, how we can perceive people differently when they are dressed in their best color?   Carla Gasser: (28:36 - 30:08) No, I haven't personally studied that, but I have seen women. Like I just got a testimony the other day, I was asking some of my clients, like, what would you say? And I had this young mom who said, you know, it wasn't low self-esteem that kept me dressing this way.   It was apathy. And I thought that was a really strong word. And she walked into church and she actually sings at church.   So, she's up on stage and we just talked about a few tweaks and she's like everybody said something to me after. And they said, “You sang louder, you were glowing, you were shining.” And she goes, “I felt I didn't do anything different, but just wear what we talked about and changed my clothes.”   So, I do think people notice, I think that there is a radiance that comes from within. Not only are you more confident, but I do think again, it highlights your face. And when your face is highlighted, people are attracted to that, you know?   And I always make a big point when I'm out and about doing my grocery shopping, going to the drugstore, going to the post office, and I see someone wearing the right color. I don't tell her I'm a color now. I don't go through all that.   I just said, you know, you look fabulous in that color. And I'm like, give me a big smile if they're not smiling. And they're just like, well, who is this woman?   I go, and they walk out like two inches taller.   Laura Dugger: (30:09 - 31:30) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?   Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.   Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share.   We appreciate you. Well, I love that you've mentioned Sherri Brandel because she's the one who founded Style by Color, but she was also a previous guest on The Savvy Sauce. So, I'll make sure and link to her fantastic episode.   And I love her testimony. But with you, Carla, at Style by Color, do you ever keep records of the percentage of people who make up each category, or have you even noticed patterns of which ones are most or least common? Yes.   Carla Gasser: (31:31 - 33:10) I think it depends on where you live because when we get all together for consultants, because we do have continuing education, I'm part of their professional development program. So, I'm trained every month in something new, like whether it's hair or makeup or trends or just different things. But we get together once a year for our conference and we talk about where we live.   It seems to me, and I live in Northeast Ohio, kind of between Cleveland and Akron, a lot of the women in my area seem to be softs. There's a lot of soft. I do a lot of soft.   Very rarely do I do someone like me. Now, if you go down, I think in my family, I'm Italian. Most of my Italian relatives are deeps, not as clear as me because they have more of the olive skin.   For some reason, I got this very light skin. I do tan, but I don't tan on my face for some reason. You notice my arms are darker than my face.   So, I do think it kind of runs that way, kind of where you live and maybe a little bit by ethnicity or background. However, I have said to people, because we do this tonal color analysis, there can be people who are clear that don't look exactly like me because what am I doing? I'm comparing their hair to their skin, to their eyes.   I'm not comparing them to me. So, I think that's what makes this unique and makes it very customizable for people. Yes.   Laura Dugger: (33:11 - 33:19) Makes sense. Okay. And this may sound a little overly dramatic, but how have you seen this process improve someone's life?   Carla Gasser: (33:20 - 35:30) Oh, wow. I wish I could read you. I mean, I have some testimonials here that I was just looking through last night and to get prepared for this.   One person said, when I looked at my closet, I felt overwhelmed. I kept buying new things, but none of them seemed to solve my problem. So, many great pieces, but never seemed to be able to pull things together.   Carla came to the rescue. Her instructions on preparing for a meeting were concise and clear. And our 90-minute session flew by.   By the time we were finished, I was feeling so excited about all the new possibilities. Now I find it so easy to step into my closet, a place that once scared me. Take a quick look and decide what to wear for any occasion.   Before, I just had my colors for shopping, but now I have the missing piece of fabric and fit and how to put it all together. So, that's one of them. Another one said thanks for being such an encouragement to me, for showing me how to dress.   And so, I feel beautiful. I'm thankful that I've never struggled with self-esteem the way many women do. But for me, I had become very apathetic, knowing I could probably do better, but not really caring or getting frustrated when I tried, when I tried didn't work the way I thought it should.   You have helped me to see what many times I've picked close to the right colors or I've settled for good enough when I could have added pieces to make it beautiful. Thank you for listening and obeying what God asked you to step out into this vocation to make women feel beautiful from the inside out. You've been a blessing.   So, I do think it has changed women. I have had women say I spend less money. I spend less time.   I feel more confident at work. I feel more confident like she said at church, you know, being in front of someone. So, yeah, I think it makes a measurable difference in people's lives.   If they apply it, you know, I think there are women who are one and done that come in, they just want to know what their colors are, and they walk out and you know, but even that does add something to your life, I think. So, yes, I do think it makes a difference. It's definitely personally made a difference in my own life.   Laura Dugger: (35:31 - 35:35) So, anything you'd want to elaborate on that how it's made a difference in your own life.   Carla Gasser: (35:36 - 38:10) I think I had gotten into kind of similarly to the testimonial I just read of someone of just, you know, not caring. You know, I had four kids at home. I was running everywhere.   I wanted what was comfortable. I wanted what was quick. And what happened was I had gotten into this really gray phase, not realizing that the gray was really reflecting how I was feeling on the inside.   And after I was, I went to a speaker's convention, because I'm also a speaker and Sherry actually did my colors. She was at this event. And so, I met her in person, and we have become great friends since I came home and I started changing it and I have three boys and a girl.   Who do you think noticed that I was changing before? It was my boys. And my one son said to me, “I love that you're wearing brighter colors.   It reminds me of when I was younger, that you always wore colors like that when I was little. Like I always remember my mom showing up and she was in and he goes, and you haven't done that in a long time. And I thought there's something more like we were talking before about the psychology.   I would also feel like it was a spiritual thing too, for me that I had kind of just settled in a lot of ways. And I think women think that they're hiding in bigger clothes or in drab colors because they don't want to be seen or they don't feel their worth or they have shame, they have regret, they have all these things. And I used to also when I would dress up and go places, have you ever had people say to you, why are you so dressed up?   Why are you wearing that? And it would make me shrink. It would make me feel awful.   Like I'm not trying to show you up. I'm not trying. I just, this is what I like to wear.   And I changed that total attitude around. And we would go out with the group of women. They're like, there you are, Carlo.   What are you wearing that for? And I said, you know what? I'm your fancy friend.   Call me your fancy friend. I'm going to dress up like your fancy friend. And when we go places, this is what I feel like.   And I said, and if you want to wear sweats, I don't care. That's what makes you comfortable. That makes you feel good about yourself.   But I feel like sometimes we dress for other women and other people before we dress for ourselves.   Laura Dugger: (38:11 - 39:13) Well, that's really good. And even how you mentioned there's a spiritual component. I think of Jesus teaching on so many object lessons and that he would use something external to talk about the internal spiritual condition.   And it reminds me of another guest, Jamie Erickson, who wrote the book on holy Hygge, just on that concept of our inner life will be reflected outwardly as well. And last piece, just with the psychology, I do remember one thing with the psychology of color, just that when somebody is in their best palette, that we naturally trust them more. And so, it's just unique, all the things that we're probably unaware of, but this really does matter.   Absolutely. And so then beyond just our clothing, can you share some more of your best tips? I'm thinking makeup and jewelry, colored print options, and just your general styling tips.   Carla Gasser: (39:14 - 43:53) I think one other demonstration that I do a lot, too, that I do with women is I think we undervalue the importance of accessories, that you could take a very simple outfit and change it up with accessories. And it's not buying more clothes. It's just taking things off, adding things.   And so, I went to a women's group here in town and I wore a basic jumpsuit. And I told them, this is how I would wear this jumpsuit if I was just running out and about. And I put tennis shoes on.   I put a simple necklace on, simple handbag, one out. And they're like, great. I said, okay, now I'm going to meet some friends for lunch.   Same jumpsuit. Put sandals on, put a little cardigan on, put a thicker necklace on. So, I was teaching them, you could take one outfit and style it three to four or five different ways just by accessories.   So, that's one tip. I would say don't neglect or overlook accessories. The other thing is, know what accessories work for your frame.   If you've ever seen a woman who's like 5'10", wearing a purse this big, it doesn't work. Likewise, someone who's 5'2", wearing one of those huge canvas tote bags, you've got to match your accessories to your frame. Right?   So, if you're, you know, 5'2 and under, your accessories need to be more delicate and smaller to fit you. Likewise, like someone was saying, but, you know, I love those statement necklaces that you wear. And I'm only five, you know, my mom is tiny.   She's only like 5'1", 5'2". And I'm like, what you can do if you want to achieve that effect is layering your necklaces. They're all tiny and delicate.   But if you put three of them together, you're giving the illusion of having something more, but it's not overpowering you, something like that. So, I think those two tips that women, you know, can overlook is accessorize. And one tip that Sherry gave that revolutionized it for me, and I didn't believe her when she first told me this tip, and yet she stands by it.   And now I stand by it. When we were growing up, my mom said that your shoes must match your purse or your handbag. That was a rule, right?   Sherry does not believe in that rule. She says your shoes must match your hair. So, I thought about that because I wear all different color shoes, but I had gone to a wedding that summer and I wore a red dress to the wedding.   It's one of my best colors, right? But that was the time when those nude shoes were really popular. You know what I'm talking about?   They were kind of patent and nude, and they were, you know, rounded toe, high heel. And I thought, well, I'm not going to the prom. So, I'm not going to buy red shoes, right?   I need to buy a neutral shoe to go with a red dress. So, I went back and looked at a picture of myself in that red dress standing next to my husband in those shoes. And it looked like I was floating.   I took that dress on, but again, I put black shoes on, and I took a picture of myself and I put them side by side because I needed proof. I need visual proof. Totally different look.   Because what she says is when you're wearing all one color, a lot of times one color and outfit, your shoes and your hair frame your outfit. And I can show you picture after picture where it works. And when I speak to women, I put those pictures up there and they're like, and I'm like, I know, isn't that crazy.   And she also says your handbag should match your hair, your everyday handbag. Nine times out of 10, I asked this question, if I gave you $500 and you could go buy a really nice designer handbag, what color would you buy? 75 to 80% of women say what?   Probably black, black, right? They all say black. And then I'll show them pictures of how much better a woman looks pulled together when her everyday handbag, that doesn't mean you can't wear a pink handbag or, you know, to spice up your outfit.   If it's part of your accessory look, that's not saying that, but your everyday standard handbag that you're going to invest money in, that's going to be with you for several years should match your hair.   Laura Dugger: (43:54 - 44:04) Wow. That is so interesting to me. And I think it would be fun to do pictures, the before and after, and just see that sometimes those visuals are helpful.   Carla Gasser: (44:04 - 44:12) They help a lot, but you'll start noticing it now or go online and start looking. I'll tell the women to do that and they'll, they'll be blown away.   Laura Dugger: (44:13 - 44:21) Well, and now that we do have all of this information, how can we begin to edit or curate our closet?   Carla Gasser: (44:23 - 47:24) So, when I do a closet edit, I do give them some homework to do before I get there. And I ask them to go through their closet and do, um, for three to four things. First thing is pull out anything that you're going to donate or consign.   Okay. If you haven't worn it in two years, if it's stained, if it's, you know, that might be a throwaway, but you're going to make those piles, give away, throw away, and then maybe consign if it's something really good. And, you know, this is also based on first having a color analysis.   Like I said before, if you don't have a color analysis, it's very hard for me to go into your closet. Okay. So, that's one thing you do next thing.   We pull up anything that is seasonal from your closet. If you're not wearing it now, because you live where I live and you're not wearing sleeveless or shorts or whatever, put that in a bin, put it away. The other thing is put away a trendy.   Okay. Skinny jeans were a thing, and everybody loved their skinny jeans. Do I think skinny jeans might come back?   They might, if they, if you still like them, if they still fit you, put them in a bin, put your trending kind of clothes, long cardigans aren't in right now. How many long cardigans do you have? You probably have five, you probably have six and you probably love them.   It's okay. I'm not telling you to throw them away, put them in a bin and we're going to store those someplace else. So, there are certain things that you could start doing.   The other thing that I think is very helpful is I line my closet up with my neutrals first, and then my colors, you know, white, black and gray and Navy are my neutrals. I lined those up. Then I start lining up my colors and my patterns.   So, I think that's a very helpful way because, you know, putting outfits together becomes a lot easier because I pick a neutral, I pick a pattern, I pick a color, you know, kind of like you're probably too young for animals where the kids had to match the tags. When we were little, it was like, we went to the store and there was a, you know, a clothing line called grant or animals. And like, you match the monkey with the monkey, the monkey had on the top, the tag was like a monkey and the tag in the bottom.   There you go. There's your clothes. So, I mean, there are systems.   I also love boutiques. And I'm noting that noticing this more about boutiques that are color coded. There's a boutique in my town that you walk in, and she's got all the beige and neutral colors here.   She is all black and white here. She has all her blues here. And wow is easy to shop when they do that for you.   And I think that's coming back. I'm seeing that more, like I said, in independently owned boutiques. I don't think you're going to find that as much.   But even I went into the loft the other day and they had their clothes kind of in a color. So, that I think helps too. That helps a lot.   Laura Dugger: (47:25 - 47:37) That's a great tip for organizing our closet. And is there any edit that you would want to make to our makeup bag or addition that you just think everybody should try?   Carla Gasser: (47:39 - 48:58) We work with a company that does lipstick and lip gloss by color code. And it's called Lipstick Boss Beauty. And I sell that as well.   And I think women underestimate the power of a lip. Now, because I'm so pale, I absolutely need it. You know what I mean?   But even for people who aren't pale, she sells them by color code. And I have samples with me, and I always have women try it on. And they are so surprised at how it brings the look together.   You know, I know a lot of women are intimidated by a lot of makeup, eye makeup, whatever. But I say if you put on a lip gloss, a good foundation and blush and mascara, you don't have to worry about the rest if you're not into it. If you're into it, great, go.   But I also said when you go to Sephora or Ulta or even your local drugstore that has a lot of good makeup that you probably can use, bring your colors with you. That will help you pick out a blush. That will help you pick out a lip color.   But yeah, I think women totally underestimate just a simple lip gloss, tinted lip gloss or lipstick. I think it really pulls things together.   Laura Dugger: (48:59 - 49:11) And I love, I love that idea and just all of your offerings. So, if anybody wants to give this a try, can you share more about the resources that you have available?   Carla Gasser: (49:12 - 51:51) Yeah, I would think that the best place I would send them to is my website, which is just my name, www.carla, with a C, Gasser, G-A-S-S-E-R. And on there, there's a page that has all of my services. And one of the things on there that I keep telling women to take advantage of, you could book a free 15-minute consultation with me.   I do that for everyone. If you just don't even know where to start, and you're like, I just want to learn more. I just want to know how I could do this.   Also, my first client ever was from Canada, virtually. When I first got, you know, she had followed me for my faith resources and all of that. And when she saw I got certified, she reached out to me, and I can do virtual appointments.   If you send in your photo to me, we have a whole system of plugging it in and working through it. And we put a whole presentation, I create a customized presentation for you, and I send it to you. But we talk like this, but you know, I take your photo and I put it into kind of capes like this, but they're digital.   And we see, and so yes, but I would start with looking at my page and then booking that free 15-minute consultation to just ask me, you know, where do I start? What do you offer? And everything's listed there.   So, I also, if you want to be part of my email list, you could sign up online on that same page and you get access to a free style personality quiz. Because style personality, we talked about it a little bit earlier that you don't have to dress like me. We have four style personalities that we kind of curate, but I created a quiz so that you can kind of answer these questions and figure out, oh, I lean more towards this.   And once we do that, then I can tell you more what places to shop because I'm not going to send someone who is more of a casual, a natural chic to a Chico's. That doesn't fit their style. They would probably go to J.   Joe, you know? So, it's kind of that kind of a thing. So, that's just a fun little freebie that I give away if you want to sign up.   And my email list, I usually, my newsletter goes out almost every Tuesday or Wednesday with different tips. I give you links to things. I give you examples.   I'm really good about showing you pictures of things. We talk about trends. We talk about all kinds of things. So, yeah. And that's just free to be part of my newsletter.   Laura Dugger: (51:52 - 52:11) That is incredible. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode, which you can find on your podcast platform. Or if you go to thesavvysauce.com under show notes, you can find all of the links for today's episode. And are you willing to share, what are those four? Did you say personality?   Carla Gasser: (52:12 - 53:39) Yes. One is called natural chic. The next one is called classic modern.   The third one is style fashionista. And the fourth one is creative original. So, I ask you a ton of questions based on like, what do you feel comfortable in or what fabrics you like?   And based on that, you add up, you know, kind of, and if you're mostly A's, you're this, if you're mostly B's, you're this, C's, D's. So, it just helps you. Because again, I think that is a missing piece for a lot of women.   They don't know what their style is. And so, they look at someone like, oh, I love that. But why doesn't that look good on me?   I go, well, does it feel like you? Well, if it doesn't feel like you, then that's why you're not comfortable in it. You know?   And like I said, you know, I like to push the envelope a little bit more. I am not going to be, you know, a classic modern. I am more of a style fashionista or creative original.   I mean, I found this, this is like an old, in a boutique in Italy of all places. If you see, it's kind of like got these raw edges because they took a man's old suit jacket, cut it, and then put all these pearls on it. I mean, you're not going to find that.   And not every person wants to wear something like crazy as that, but I love it. You know? So that's my personality.   But someone else is just like, I just love silk and linen and good cotton. And I like to feel comfortable. Great. I can recommend tons of clothes for you and tons of places to shop.   Laura Dugger: (53:40 - 53:43) I love that. Well, and I think that piece is so fun.   Carla Gasser: (53:43 - 53:44) Thank you.   Laura Dugger: (53:44 - 54:09) And it's so great to see how you dress everything to your personality and you reflect beauty inside and out. But Carl, I think you may already be aware we're called the Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Carla Gasser: (54:11 - 55:06) I would say my Savvy Sauce is allowing God to transform me from the inside out and make me beautiful. I love the clothes. I love the fashion and the colors.   I've talked to you about it for over an hour. I could keep talking about it. It is a passion of mine, but if there was a secret Savvy Sauce to that, it would be inviting God in to transform me and make me beautiful from the inside out, because there are a lot of beautiful people out there, right?   But if they're not reflecting God's beauty, then we're missing it. And when I want people attracted to me, it's so that I can share with them the hope that's within, not so I can tell them where to get the best shirt or wear the best color. I want to ultimately bring them the hope of Jesus.   That's why I do it. So, that's my Savvy Sauce.   Laura Dugger: (55:07 - 55:40) Well said, Carla. You are a beautiful woman with a beautiful combination of giftings. I just love that you're a Bible teacher and a color analysis or consultant.   And that's in addition to the many other roles that you hold. But practical chats really do help us to live intentionally. And you've done that for us today.   So, thank you for sharing your fascinating career with us. I love your expertise and I really enjoyed getting to host you. So, thank you for being my guest.   Carla Gasser: (55:40 - 56:05) And thanks for doing what you're doing. I love stuff like this. This is great.   And it's bringing women together. And like you said, it's giving them that practical knowledge that we all need and can look for. There's so many places that you can go to, and not all of that knowledge is uplifting or leading you in the right direction.   So, I'm thankful for people like you who do what you do as well. So, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (56:05 - 59:22) Thank you. Appreciate that. One more thing before you go.   Have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.   But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.   So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much.   He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. That is good news.   Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what he has done for us.   Romans 10 9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So, would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place.   I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity.   In Jesus name we pray. Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him.   You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called the Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned.   So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone. Say it out loud.   Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged.   Luke 15:10 says, "in the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with.   You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.  

A conversation with Nora on preparation, strength, recovery, and redefining what better means. Nora is back—this time in the middle of recovery.Recorded from her bed, sharing a mic and space with her dog, Klaus, this conversation is exactly what it sounds like—unfiltered, real, and happening right in the middle of it.The last thing she remembers before surgery? Her gurney being run into a wall. And somehow… that's a pretty accurate entry point into what healing has actually felt like.Somewhere between Adrienne's widow brain and Nora still on pain meds… this conversation unfolds the way real ones do—imperfect, a little scattered, and completely honest. They also talk about the parts no one really prepares you for:What breathing feels like after surgery.Finding strength when your body has limits.What it takes to let people support you when you're used to being the one to support.This isn't a before-and-after story. It's a conversation about being in the middle of where healing is messy, slow, and not always visible. If you're going through something—or supporting someone who is—this episode will meet you there.If this episode resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who might need it… or send us a message.Because the truth is… we didn't plan for this—but we're here.Click here to watch Dr. Gil Hedley's video on Fascia and Stretching - The Fuzz SpeechNora's Collagen Pudding Click Here for Full RecipeEasy to digest, higher in MCT fats from coconut milk, and collagen peptides for gentle protein absorption. Designed to support healing without taxing the system.Makes 4 servings10 tbsp chia seeds1 cup oat milk4 scoops unflavored collagen peptides1.5–1.75 cups full-fat coconut milk2 tbsp raw honey2 tsp vanillaMix, chill 2–4 hrs (or overnight), divide into 4.Send us Fan MailFor those who have reached out asking how to support Adrienne and her family during this time, click here to donate. There is absolutely no expectation—just sincere gratitude.We Didn't Plan For This Special SeriesThis series exists because so many of you reached out and said, “I didn't plan for this either.”If you've gone through a diagnosis, a loss, a life change, a career shift, a divorce, becoming a caregiver, moving, starting over — we want to hear your story.You don't have to have it figured out. You just have to be willing to share honestly.How Yoga Changed My Life a PodcastSend Us Your Stories!If you have a story about how yoga, meditation, breath work, journaling, or movement changed your life, we want to hear from you! These podcasts are really about the same thing — how people move through the seasons of life they didn't plan for, and what helps them along the way.If you'd like to be on the show or share your story:  Fill out our guest form or email us at yogachanged@gmail.com Follow us on TikTok:https://www.tiktok.com/@yogachanged...

What if the thing you struggle with most could become your greatest strength? In this episode, I sit down with Dennis Szymanski, a semiconductor engineer who has lived with a stutter his entire life and learned to manage it through a powerful mix of science, self-awareness, and holistic living. Dennis shares how his journey through speech therapy, stress management, and personal growth shaped both his mindset and his career in nanoscale engineering and compound semiconductors. You will hear how early support, resilience, and curiosity helped him move from struggling to speak to confidently presenting, creating, and even writing a children's book. I believe you will find this conversation inspiring as it shows how challenges can guide you toward purpose, clarity, and an unstoppable mindset. Highlights: 00:10 Learn how early support and environment shape confidence and long term growth 09:43 Understand what it means to live with a stutter and manage it daily 11:10 Discover why the root cause of stuttering is still not fully understood 35:07 Learn how speech therapy has shifted toward treating the whole person 47:32 Understand how stress directly affects speech and performance 56:01 Discover how creativity and purpose come together through writing and innovation About the Guest: Hello everyone! My name is Dennis Szymanski, and I was born and raised on Long Island, New York. Over the course of my life, I have moved 11 times up and down the East Coast of the U.S., meeting many people and having amazing experiences, all the while working on my relationship with my stutter. I currently embrace my inner beach bum and reside in a sleepy North Carolina beach town with my girlfriend Samantha and Lennie the turtle. I have spent the better part of my academic and professional career in the semiconductor industry. I hold a Ph.D. in Materials Science and Engineering from North Carolina State University and currently work as a Product Engineer for a U.K. semiconductor manufacturing firm. In my personal life I enjoy playing disc golf, reading, playing the trumpet, yoga, entrepreneurship, public speaking, and any water sport you can imagine. The beach has always been, and forever will be, my home, my place of peace and solitude, a place to "Be As You Are". As a stutterer, I have practiced the physical art of communication ever since I have been able to talk. As a trumpet player, I understand the power of controlled breath. As an Engineer, I always strive to dig deeper. As a communicator, I believe it is all about connecting with people. As a human being, I endeavor to live a holistic life, where each facet compliments the others. My stutter made me a better engineer, just like my understanding of controlled breath as a trumpet player has made me a better communicator. I find myself to be a lifelong learner, believing that there is room for constant improvement even if, somewhat ironically, the area for necessary improvement is my (in)ability to rest and recharge. I love to travel and take much of my inspiration from the world around me. A change of scenery, pace, environment, and/or people is almost always welcomed in my life. No matter if I am out on the surfboard, generating an engineer data sheet, or giving a talk on stage, I live my life by once simple sentence: “It is all about the people.” Ways to connect with Dennis: website link is www.drdennyeddie.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dennisszymanski/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drdennyeddie Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drdennyeddie/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dennis.szymanski.35 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities, this podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, howdy, once again, everyone and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. It is a wonderful time here. We're recording this just a couple of days before Thanksgiving, and I especially give thanks for the fact that I get to join all of you and do these podcasts. So I want to thank you all for being here, and I want to thank our guest, Dennis Edward Szymanski, we're going to stick with Dennis, but we really appreciate you being here. And Dennis is involved with semiconductors. He lives life to the fullest. We were just talking before we started about his turtle. Lenny the turtle, he can he can talk about that if he wishes. And he also has some other interesting things that I'm looking forward to chatting about since he brought it up, and that is that he is, among other things, or he was, a stutterer, and so he lives with his stutter. He now lives in North Carolina on a beach, so it's his inner beach bum that he is supporting anyway. Dennis, without all without going in any much more detail about any of this, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here, Dennis Szymanski  02:15 Michael, not just because it's Thanksgiving. I am very grateful and thankful to be here with you, to have met you, as well as to be here with all the guests on unstoppable mindset and all the listeners to us, whether you're watching listening, it's great to be here and happy to have this great discussion here with you today. Michael Hingson  02:36 Well, we're glad you're here, and this will I'm looking forward to it. This will be a lot of fun. Why don't we start with kind of the early Dennis. I don't always start that way. Start with kind of the early growing up person, and let's go from there. Dennis Szymanski  02:50 Of course, I think a good place to start a lot of the time is the beginning. So I I'm a New Yorker, born and raised on Long Island to two very loving parents who have been supportive throughout all of my endeavors, from supporting me and my stuttering journey to encouraging me to pursue other outlets like music, encouraging me to stick to my academics and and even supporting my love of pets, which, as you alluded to, I have a turtle right now. Her name is Lenny, but she she is one of many dogs, lizards, hamsters, ferrets, chinchillas, birds. We've had a lot of pets growing up, and you know that that has informed, actually a lot of my current worldview, but we can, we can get to that later. Michael Hingson  03:45 What does your girlfriend think about all that? Dennis Szymanski  03:48 Well, my girlfriend is a four legged pet woman herself staying outside of tanks. That's, that's one of her remits. So Lenny, we got to realize our shared dream, me, my girlfriend, and Lenny of getting Lenny out of the house, out of the tank and into a pond in the backyard of my home here on the coast of North Carolina. So we're all happy. It's, it's been a, it's been an amazing summer. They are getting us all out of the house. So that's a good thing. You know, she's she's very supportive of of Lenny. We, we had two dogs together. Unfortunately, they were old and have since passed on. But we're planning to get some some, some new four legged friends down the line. And we are even in the process of courting, adopting a stray cat that is hanging around our our neighborhood. So it's a nice it's a nice middle ground there not as much responsibility as a dog, you know, a stray cat, but still the potential for the companionship and for the routine and for taking care of something that I know we. Both miss being absent dogs. Not that Lenny doesn't take taking care of it's just a different companion, yeah, different kind of pet Michael Hingson  05:10 we we have my guide dog, Alamo, and as listeners know, we also have stitch, the cat, who will be 16. We think in January, we rescued her. We think at about the age of five, family didn't want her, and they said, Take her to the pound. And we said, No, we'll find her a home. And along the way, I happened to ask what the cat's name was, and they told me that the cat's name was stitch. And I knew this cat wasn't going to go anywhere, since Karen had been a professional quilter since 1994 so quilters aren't going to give up an animal named stitch. Dennis Szymanski  05:44 No, too, too many coincidences there to just not, not go ahead with stitch. Yeah, so, Michael Hingson  05:53 so stitch is with us. Dennis Szymanski  05:55 We, we, we think a very similar way all the pets that I had, I actually never had a cat that was my own, just parents were allergic. Sister was allergic, things like this. Brother was allergic. But when our most recent dog passed, we noticed that this cat started coming around at a very at only a few weeks before he passed. So we think that they had a little bit of a conversation to say that, you know, a little changing of the guard, a proper handoff, if, if you will. So we're looking forward to having our tuxedo cat, which we named very appropriately and affectionately tuxy. We're unsure if it's a boy or a girl, yet. So we went with tuxi butcher, straying back from, from, from the original topic, coming back on, yes, the stray cat pun was somewhat intended. I get it born and raised, Long Island, New York. I left there when I was 17 out of high school to pursue my undergraduate degree in engineering, I stepping back a little bit. My father's a insurance agent, but a serial entrepreneur. He cut his teeth in the insurance industry, but now is heavily involved in a cybersecurity startup. So a man who wears many hats, and my mother is in it. So my first desk job, if you will, was in computers, and that kind of led me down the path of some sort of engineering related to computers. So I went up to the colleges of nanoscale science and engineering up in Albany, New York, for those familiar with the SUNY system, it's a State University in New York up in Albany, where I did four years there, and I studied nano scale engineering, which is a fancy way to say material science, with a focus in semiconductors, which led me to take my first job in industry while I was actually still getting my undergraduate degree, which bolstered my decision to continue on down here to North Carolina. I actually took my first step down in Raleigh as a PhD candidate at NC State, where I studied material science and engineering as well. And two things I've always you know, kept close is the love of business as it relates to technology. So I have a minor in business from my time in undergrad, as well as I took several MBA courses and got a technology Entrepreneurship Certificate from from NC State. So I take the business and the technology. I've married those into a career here as a product engineer for a compound semiconductor manufacturer, all of which we can get into a little bit more. But the other love that I keep close and have recently had a renaissance in my life, is my love of music. I was actually faced with a choice of music or engineering back when a lot of us started to apply to college or university at that time in their life, in high school, and I chose the engineering route, but but always kept the love of music. It was my first paying job, playing in a gig, playing gigs in bars when I was younger and right now I actually, like I said, I'm having a renaissance. I took a little bit of a hiatus while life got busy in grad school and getting my feet under me in the corporate world, taking my first job, but learned to to understand the need, the need that my brain, you know, to have that left brain, right brain, creative mind, logical mind flexed, and just to to have the time to myself. It's something that I enjoy, something that I've enjoyed since I'm eight years old. And, you know, I'm happy to keep continuing it. And I want to finish the opening monolog here, if you will. With. With something you said that I'm a lifelong stutterer, and ever since I opened my mouth, I can remember having disfluent speech, and I have to say that the biggest support that my parents ever gave me was encouraging me, as well as helping me at a very young age start in speech therapy, I I have met so many people in my life that Dennis Szymanski  10:32 did not have supporting parents or a supporting situation, and to To see that impact and that thread be traced throughout my life, and, you know, and juxtaposing it to other people's lives, it really makes a difference to have that supporting environment, that belief, because, you know, you said it, I live with the stutter Every day. It's very well managed. Now in my life, there was a time where I could not finish a sentence when I was in elementary school, early middle school, without having a stutter. But now I've learned through speech techniques, living my life in a relatively holistic way, how stress relates to my stutter and so many other things that I can manage it a lot better. But as my fellow stuttering people out there that might be listening, you always live with it. You know you're you're never, quote, unquote, cured. You're always having that stutter, managing it, whether it's overtly or covertly, it's always there. But very happy to get into all of that and more here with with you Michael, as as we kick off the episode. Michael Hingson  11:54 So what? What causes stuttering? Do we really know Dennis Szymanski  11:59 that's what, in part, is so fascinating is that we can't really pinpoint it, whereas to say this part of the brain for sure is, you know, impacting this part of your vocal cord in this way. And if we get in there and treat it however way it's going to go away there, of course, is ideas that you know certain parts of your brain have more of an impact or influence, and that it does directly relate to your vocal cords, because, at least from my stutter, how It works, and how I could, you know, most effectively explain it is my vocal cords simply lock up. So normal vocal cord operation, it's like a string on a violin, right, or string on a guitar. If you pluck it, it resonates, vibrates, makes sound. Your vocal cords work just the same, but their mechanism of quote, unquote, plucking is the air that you breathe. So if they lock up, you don't have vibration, you don't have sound, you don't have speech. And what's interesting is that if you were to put your your your ear or your hand to my mouth during a stuttering episode, there's still air flow like there's still air leaving my mouth, just as it does during fluent speech, but there's just no action and something else that is very interesting about the You know, my my stutter, and I've talked to other stutterers that have a similar experience, is that we know what we want to say. It's all upstairs. It's all formulated. It's just the physical blocking of the vocal cord, at least in my case and I, I make the, you know, the I make it important to say my case, because there is very different manifestations of stuttering, stammering, how one might block, how one might repeat a word. What are different triggers, etc. So in a nutshell, we don't really know which is why there's so many different theories, methodologies of treatment, how to cope, deal with, treat the the stud itself. Michael Hingson  14:32 Yeah, it's, it's fascinating, and I appreciate you giving us that explanation of it. It is something that I think is very important to point out that one of the things you mentioned is extremely crucial. Your parents were supportive. They helped you. My parents did the same thing when it was discovered that I was blind. Yeah, and a number of parents have really bought into helping their children recognize they can do whatever they choose and that they can deal with so many different issues. And oftentimes we also hear about parents who don't support some people succeed in spite of it, and some do not. But it's so important to really know that we, some of us, have parents who really help and and will do anything that they can to assist us in making life better for us Dennis Szymanski  15:41 and when we first got connected, and then afterwards, doing more listening to your talks, and other episodes of unstoppable mindset, I had learned that your parents were were supportive as well, and that made a mental note, as a matter of fact, to bring this up here in this talk, because I could not agree more the importance of support of your parents, especially as a young child, that's where everything starts. But then even as we grow our friends, you know, larger family and the networks that that that we keep is are so important to our development success as individuals. Michael Hingson  16:24 Yeah, so your parents are still with us. Dennis Szymanski  16:28 They both. Are they both? Are they divorced when I was very young, but that, again, you know, had no bearing on the support and the love I have a stepfather and a stepmother who are equally incredible and supportive. I always said I just got double the family that loves and cares. There you go. And my mother still lives on Long Island in the house where I grew up, so I love to go visit. Was just back there a couple of weeks ago, and are heading back up, you know, a couple of weeks time. And my dad actually lives in South Carolina. He relocated with my stepmother and my brother. They are around the Columbia area, so we're actually both Dennis' in the Carolinas. So that's actually quite nice. And I'm just just just saw him a couple of days ago, and I'm gonna see him, you know, on the Thanksgiving holiday as well. So looking forward to, looking forward to that. Michael Hingson  17:31 Well, last time I was back in the New York area for any length of time, I spent a week last year in Lindenhurst speaking to the Lindenhurst union free school district, and that was a lot of fun. Fortunately, it was before the snow hit. Oh, yeah, Lindenhurst. Dennis Szymanski  17:51 Lindenhurst was about a half an hour from where I grew up, one of the many, many towns that is the infinite urban sprawl of Long Island. Michael Hingson  18:00 Yeah. Well, yep. Well, it was fun. I was there for almost a week, and spoke to lots of sixth, seventh and eighth graders, did some faculty training, but enjoyed the area, and I've enjoyed Long Island every time I've been out there. So it was kind of fun. Well, I want to go back to this idea of nano scale. Tell me a little bit more about nano scale engineering. Dennis Szymanski  18:26 Absolutely, like I said, it's basically material science and engineering, but with a focus in semiconductors. So having had the hindsight now traditional material science background from NC State. When I went to do my graduate work, things like traditional material science, so metal stress strain curves. Didn't learn that in undergrad, focusing in semiconductors, I learned about transistors and the ethics of scaling semiconductor technology and computer programming at a very basic level that could help run certain parts of a semiconductor process. So very specific, very targeted focus that was nanoscale engineering. I was very fortunate to be the sixth graduating class out of the small colleges of nanoscale science and engineering. Like I said, that was part of the SUNY Albany system, and very hands on. I was in a building on the University's campus that was essentially an office building with 250 private companies pooling their resources in the office space as well as laboratory space, clean room space, but with a couple of classrooms. So not only was I rubbing shoulders with classmates, I was rubbing shoulders with people who worked at IBM or global founder. Or ASML Tokyo electron. These are big international companies that play in the semiconductor manufacturing space, and little did I know that was going to kickstart this incredible journey that has led me here to being a product engineer for a compound semiconductor manufacturer focused on gallium nitride power technology. So where people might be hearing this is in the AI data center talk. This material is going to enable faster, cheaper, cooler, more efficient chips, as well as you might have noticed, electric vehicles, your laptop, even your cell phone, charging a little faster and in recent years, and those bricks that used to sit on your lap and burn your lap get there, they're cooler. They're not as hot. All of these are direct advancements in compound semiconductor technology, semiconductor technology and essentially nanoscale engineering. And to go to its most fundamental route, you know engineer, nanoscale engineering is engineering on the nanoscale. And where we're at with semiconductor technology is we are looking at in silicon, a transistor is about a nanometer, two nanometers, which to put it in perspective for everybody listening, your hair, the width of your hair is 60 to 80 micrometers and nanometers are three orders of magnitude smaller, smaller than micrometers. So you can imagine that the reason we need clean rooms in semiconductor manufacturing is because one of your hair could wipe out hundreds, if not 1000s, of transistors on one of the chips, which nobody wants, right? You want a good manufacturing process that has high yield. So nano scale engineering has been was, was the start for for me with you know, the continuation of that has been to go into, as I said, material science in a more quote, unquote, proper sense, learning those stress strain curves, learning a little bit of polymer science, All applications and material science, but staying focused from age 17 till now on nanoscale engineering, which is material science focused, and semiconductors, Michael Hingson  22:51 if I recall, right, transistors were developed somewhere around 1948, so I mean, my gosh, that's only 77 years ago, ago, and look how far we've come. Dennis Szymanski  23:05 It truly is mind boggling. Michael Hingson  23:08 Michael, at the same time, we need to do something to figure out how to stop so many lithium ion batteries from causing fires somewhere. Dennis Szymanski  23:19 It's they're both material science problems for sure that that need to be tackled. I agree, Michael Hingson  23:26 yeah, one of those things that we're we're on the cusp of so many different developments. People talk about autonomous vehicles and so on. But, you know, the reality is, we're on the cusp. We're living through the the change that is coming. And personally, from my perspective, in my opinion, I can't wait for the time that we get to take driving out of the hands of drivers, because too many drivers don't do very well. Dennis Szymanski  23:55 You know, I have a very similar opinion, even though I will say one of my childhood dreams was to become a race car driver. So I do love to drive. I had an eighth of a mile go kart track in my backyard growing up, and one of the things that kept my sanity during my PhD program was going to the local go kart track and getting to put in some time trials. So I love to drive, but from a safety perspective, I could not agree with you more that it's high time that that we can implement some better safety and probably less traffic. Michael Hingson  24:33 Well, given the way most people seem to drive up here in Victorville or out here in Victorville, I am of the absolute opinion that I can drive as well as they can anyway, so Dennis Szymanski  24:44 we'll see. You know coming, coming from the New York driving environment to the North Carolina driving environment. Some things are similar, some things are very different, but, but it's definitely been, been fun spending almost half of my life. You know now down down down here in North Carolina, we had Michael Hingson  25:04 some people visiting us when my wife and I lived in New Jersey, and we drove into the city, and they said that the people who are with us, these cab drivers, are crazy. Just look at the way they drive. I would never want to be in a cab with with any of those drivers. And Karen pointed out, my wife pointed out something very relevant and so true for most cab drivers, at least back then, she said, look at those cabs. Do you see any dents? Do you see any dings? And they said, No. And she said, So what do you mean? You wouldn't want to be in those cars. You're probably safer in those cars than most anywhere else. Dennis Szymanski  25:48 She was right. She makes a good point. Michael Hingson  25:50 Practice. Makes perfect. It does. I love checker cabs, but we don't see those anymore. That's too bad. But oh well. But you know, one of the one way or another, I think that the time will come when autonomous vehicles will will make driving a lot safer, and that'll be good. But we're not there yet, and we're not there with with so many things I mentioned, the lithium ion batteries, they would they too will get better, and we will get over all of that. Now, of course, what we need to do is to make sure that we still have rare earth elements around. But that's going to be another challenge that we face over time. Dennis Szymanski  26:27 Yes, that's that's part of the fun, Michael, of being actually in material science as a discipline that it encompasses so many different touch points that we have in our life. One of my closest friends and was a colleague in my PhD program, is working on solid state battery technology that could potentially replace lithium ion technology and solve some of those problems just and it spans the whole gamut. I have a friend doing nuclear waste remediation. So very, very cool material science as a whole. You know, I'm obviously very enveloped in and my love is semiconductors, but my insatiable curiosity, I think I'm in the right field at Michael Hingson  27:20 large, yeah. What's the difference between incumbent semiconductors and compound semiconductors? Dennis Szymanski  27:30 Incumbent semiconductor technology has been predominantly silicon. So the raw material is you go to the beach and you get sand. That's obviously very oversimplifying. I'm not saying that you know TSMC or Global Foundries, or any of these guys are going to the nearest beach, but that is the raw material. It's very high purity. Silicon and compound semiconductors, on the other hand, are still very pure. That's one of the biggest material challenges of semiconductors at large, is to make them pure. But, and I'm glossing over a ton of physics and a ton of material science when I say pure. So just for any any fellow material science colleagues out there listening, I am aware that I glossed over a lot, but compound semiconductors are compound so you have two or more elements that come together that have semiconducting properties. So indium phosphide, indium and phosphorus, gallium nitride, gallium and nitrogen, aluminum gallium nitride, aluminum gallium and nitrogen. So they all come together. And what's very, very handy about these compound semiconductors is they can address a lot of niche applications in a much more efficient way than the incumbent silicon technology. So silicon technology can do a lot, I'm going to venture to say, almost everything we need. But the perfect example, and is on the top of everybody's mind is AI. You're not going to have AI in the form that we know it, if at all, without these compound semiconductors, silicon is just too inefficient. It's, you know, we've, we've reached certain limits at the material level that we need these compound semiconductors to get more efficient, AI, faster data interconnects, even, you know, charging your phone, laptop, electric vehicle, quicker, all of these are enabled. Enabled, and then to continue to iterate and improve, necessitate improvements and compounds. I mean, yeah, Michael Hingson  30:07 and that's, of course, the real key, speed and efficiency have a lot to do with it. I don't know. I remember having being a ham radio operator. I remember some of the early radios that I worked with. It was before, as ham operators would tell you, they went dark and went from tubes to transistors. So I remember vacuum tubes. My father was a TV repairman in Chicago before we moved out to California when I was five. And of course, then the biggest thing you ever replaced in a TV was a tube, although you did resistors and other things as well. But now, of course, it's a totally different animal. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Dennis Szymanski  30:50 I mean, the the vacuum tubes are exactly replaced with transistors. You replace with LEDs and all the different different things that modern semiconductors have enabled. Michael Hingson  31:00 They take a whole lot less power and are a lot a lot cooler in in the sense of, Well, I guess in cool in all ways. I had one I had one ham radio. It was a Polycom, and I forget the model number, but it ran extremely hot. We finally put a fan on one end of it to pull air through it. But without the fan, I could actually thaw and heat tater tots on it. It was so hot. Dennis Szymanski  31:29 Wow, you, you, you had a two in one. There you had, I did, and the ham radio Michael Hingson  31:35 all at the same time. It was great. But, yeah, I understand, and tubes are were replaced, and rightly so, by transistors. But a tube is a great way to teach the whole theory of how it all works and give you a way to see it in a very visual way that you're not going to see with transistors very well. Dennis Szymanski  31:57 That's true, and something that I was actually just kind of reappreciating Today was the history of it all, and how it's so important to realize that science and history are obviously inextricably linked from the progression standpoint, And then from what you said, it's it's so easy to to forget fundamentals and kind of get lost in the sauce, if you will. But I fully agree with what you say, that sometimes the quote, unquote old technology is actually just as good, if not better, a way to teach the fundamentals of the new technology, yeah, because so often they just build off of one another, right? Michael Hingson  32:49 The reality is that the process hasn't changed in terms of what they do. It's just that the product itself has changed, and it's become a lot more efficient and so on. But still, you're, you're moving electrons and and controlling them with positive and negative charges through the whole transistor process, just like you used to do with tubes, exactly, exactly. That's what makes it so, so interesting. And as you said, we take it way too much for granted. But I think that overall, it's it's great to have the old technology and the perspective to learn from, which is extremely important to do well. So what did you get your PhD in? Dennis Szymanski  33:40 So my PhD is in material science. Okay, that's what it is. My dissertation was on Super junction devices, a novel way to utilize gallium nitride in that particular device structure, super junction. So I again PhD, high level material science, compound semiconductors. And I focused on one particular material system, gallium nitride. And the goal was to learn about the material itself, make the material better and more suitable to be utilized in this type of transistor architecture that's called a super junction. Michael Hingson  34:32 So have we yet discovered a way to have any kind of superconductor operate at room temperature? Dennis Szymanski  34:39 Well, I didn't discover that there's been I mean, I keep up to date as best I can on other areas of the science world, and I know that we're doing really cool research that was previously thought to be impossible, right? Like most cutting edge scientific research.

CBS's News' David Begnaud shares good news and even MAKES some good news on social media with his Do Good Crew. Begnaud heard of Louisvillian Robert “Bob” Weihe who has been to 79 consecutive Derby races, but couldn't afford a ticket for Kentucky Derby 152 due to being in hospice care. Begnaud and WLKY is making it happen! STORY: https://www.wdjx.com/louisville-man-gets-tickets-to-his-80th-consecutive-derby/

If you've been sitting on a subscription box idea but feel overwhelmed about where to start, this episode is your roadmap. “I have an idea, but I don't know what to do next.” “I feel stuck.” “I don't want to do it wrong.” Most people aren't stuck because they're not capable. They're stuck because they're doing the steps out of order. So in this episode, I'm walking you through the exact 8 steps to go from idea to shipping your first box with clarity and confidence. Step 1: Start With the Person, Not the Product Your subscription box is not about the products inside. It's about the person you're serving. Instead of asking, “What should I put in my box?” Start with: Who is this for? What problem am I solving? Because even if it doesn't feel like a “problem,” it is. People don't buy products. They buy how those products make them feel: organized, relaxed, confident, seen. If you can clearly describe your ideal customer in one sentence and she immediately feels like, “That's for me,” you're on the right track. Step 2: Build Your Audience Before You Launch Don't wait until your box is ready to find customers. You need people before you have something to sell. Your job right now isn't to sell, it's to invite people into the journey. Share behind-the-scenes moments Ask for input (polls, naming, product ideas) Let people watch you build And remember, it doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be real. Step 3: Plan Your First 3–6 Months of Boxes Before you buy anything, map out your themes and product ideas for the first few months. Planning ahead: Makes sourcing easier Simplifies your content Creates a more consistent experience for your customers It also keeps you from scrambling every single month. When you know what's coming next, you make better decisions and you move with more confidence. Step 4: Price for Profit (Not Just Sales) This is a business, not a hobby. Once you've planned your boxes, then you start sourcing and you price with intention. A good starting goal is at least a 40% profit margin, with room to grow from there. And don't forget the hidden costs: Shipping Packaging Fees Replacements Because making sales doesn't always mean making money. This step is about building something sustainable that supports you long-term. Step 5: Build a Warm, Ready-to-Buy Waitlist Before you launch, you need people who are already excited to buy. That's what your waitlist is for. Think of it as warming up the room before you make the offer. Use social media to grow your list, and email to nurture it: Share your story Show sneak peeks Reveal themes Take them behind the scenes People don't just buy the box, they buy into you and connection is what turns interest into action. Step 6: Keep Packaging Simple (At First) Packaging matters but not as much as you think in the beginning. Choose packaging based on what's going inside the box, and keep it simple and cost-effective. You can always upgrade later. In the early days, your customers care more about what's inside than the box it came in. Let your product lead, and let your packaging grow with your business. Step 7: Plan Your Launch Before Launch Day A successful launch doesn't start on launch day. It starts weeks before. Give yourself 2–4 weeks to build excitement: Talk about your box consistently Share sneak peeks and progress Repeat your message (more than you think you need to) Your energy and consistency are what build momentum. Step 8: Pack and Ship Your First Box This is the moment where it all becomes real. Your first shipment will likely be a mix of excitement, chaos, and pride.  Keep things simple: Batch your packing Create a basic workflow Do quality checks And document everything. Photos, videos, behind-the-scenes moments all make up the kind of content that fuels your future marketing. Most importantly, celebrate it. Because this is a big deal. Success comes from doing the steps in the right order. Not skipping ahead. Not rushing. Not trying to do everything at once. Just taking the next step. So ask yourself, “What step am I skipping right now?” Because you don't need everything figured out. You just need to move forward. If you want help mapping out your first six months of boxes, I'd love for you to join me inside my 6 in 60 Workshop. Join me in all the places:     Facebook Instagram Launch Your Box with Sarah Website  Are you ready for Launch Your Box? Our complete training program walks you step by step through how to start, launch, and grow your subscription box business. Join the waitlist today!

On a Wednesday drive WD talks all things Panthers, UNC signing, Morgan talks Talladega in, The Fast Lane, Makes some bets in Dalton's Dollars, and talks with David Glenn on theNCAA Tournament.

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins takes a deep dive with his guest Matt into the assassination of Carmine Galante—one of the most infamous mob hits in American history. Matt co-authored a book titled Made In Long Island Matt begins by analyzing the controversial footage captured at the Ravenite Social Club shortly after the murder. While federal investigators interpreted the scene as a celebration by those responsible, Matt challenges that narrative. He breaks down the body language and behavior of key figures, including Bruno Indelicato, suggesting the footage actually reflects anger and exclusion—not guilt. The episode introduces guest Matt, co-author of Made on Long Island, who provides an insider's perspective on the inner workings of organized crime. Matt prefers to not give his last name. Together, they explore how the Galante hit fit into a broader power struggle within the Bonanno crime family and beyond. Matt cowrote this book with Bartley Scarbrough. Matt tells a little-known story about Mob dealings with Fireworks around the 4th of July. One story is about a closed store and how they made up for the closed store and gave a fireworks show on the 5th and most of the kids never knew. The conversation expands to include major mob figures such as John Gotti and Sonny Red Indelicato, examining the shifting alliances and rivalries that shaped the events leading up to the assassination. Matt shares firsthand stories of mob life, detailing how communication relied on coded language and payphones—tools that kept operations hidden in plain sight. Gary and Matt dissect the planning behind the hit, revealing a calculated operation involving surveillance, weapon disposal, and carefully constructed alibis. They also address the aftermath, focusing on law enforcement's inability to definitively link the crime to certain suspects—raising questions about whether individuals like Indelicato were wrongly accused.   A central theme emerges: the gap between official narratives and the complex realities of organized crime. Matt argues that investigative misinterpretations—particularly by federal authorities—led to flawed conclusions and, potentially, unjust prosecutions. This episode challenges long-held assumptions about the Galante murder, offering listeners a more nuanced view of Mafia politics, loyalty, and betrayal. It's a detailed reexamination of a landmark mob hit—and a reminder that the truth is often far more complicated than the headlines. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Transcript [0:00] Yeah, if you could just hold the frame right there, I think it’s very important [0:03] to set the stage of what we have here. This is a meeting of Bonanno crime family members, very high up ones, in front of Neil Delacroche’s Gambino headquarters on Mulberry Street, known as the Ravenite. Now, the feds used this tape to say that Bruno Indelicato was part of a conspiracy to murder Galante and that this tape shows the celebration. It does not. This tape is an absolute beef being put in primarily by Sonny Red and Delicato because he was supposed to do the hit jointly with the Gambino family led by John Gotti. He’s furious because at this point in time, he thinks he’s left out of the head. And just before you roll it, this video basically proves to every law enforcement person and every Cosa Nostra member that the people in this video did not do the murder. You don’t go out in Cosa Nostra, commit one of the biggest hits ever, a triple homicide, and then show your face an hour later. It does not work that way. So if you roll the tape, we can see some of the body language on these guys as well. [1:08] The guy in the white is Stefano Canone. He is the family’s consigliere, [1:13] which is technically third in charge, an advisory role. He is already at the Ravenite when everyone else arrives. A key figure in this is Sonny Red in Delicato Wearing a black jacket you’ll see His son is in the white shirt there The younger fellow that’s Bruno in Delicato The only guy that was convicted of this crime Now look at what’s going on here This is not a celebration They’re in the face of him And they’re furious And stop right there if you could, The gentleman in the black jacket right there. [1:44] Sonny, Red, and Delicato, he takes a couple steps back from his consigliere, which is technically his boss, and he turns around in fury, and he’s angry because, again, his team, led by him, was left off the head. Notice also, if you want to keep rolling the tape, he goes to his glasses. This is an absolute sign of anger, as per our body language experts, who, by the way, don’t even know who these people are. The only thing they know is this is a dispute, not a celebration. You notice that when he puts his hand up by his glasses? Now he thinks a little bit better of it because that’s his boss he’s talking to. And that’s a very good sign here. Again, another angle of this is in the Pizza Connection case in 1985. [2:27] Not only in the indictment, but also in FBI testimony, when asked who killed Carmen Galante, they did not say it was Bruno and Delicato and two other masked assailants. They said it was three unknown masked assailants that killed him. That’s what their testimony was. Everybody on the Cosa Nostra side and on the law enforcement side knows what this is. No mob guy commits a triple murder and then goes out to run to a place that we used to refer to as the FBI screen test, which was the Ravenite in Lower Manhattan and Mulberry Street. Everybody knows it, and it’s about time the story gets told, [3:05] and you’re going to see a lot more of this. Hey, all you wiretappers. Good to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit Sergeant, and I have a guy here who has a different story and what he would say the real story behind the murder of Carmine Galante. Now, guys, there’s three monumental hits in organized crime history, I would say. The Galante hit… [3:33] Big because of the cigar in his mouth and that picture that was captured, but he was also an important hit in Mob. Now we also had the Anastasia. Anastasia was important and it was also got important, more important because of the photographs. Paul Castellano was important, I think more because of John Gotti than anything, but Carmine Galante and Matt here knows a lot about that hit and a lot about an alternative story to what really happened as it was reported it in the media. So welcome, Matt. Thank you so much for having me on, Gary. I really love your program. I’m happy to be here. All right, Matt, you got a book made on Long Island. Let’s just show everybody the copy of that. There you go, guys. There’s a copy of the book. It’s available on Amazon right now, right, Matt? [4:25] It certainly is. Thank you for putting it up. And one little sentence I’ll draw attention to at the bottom is, no AI was used in this. I know a lot of books are coming out now and people using AI, which I personally think is garbage. This is all handwritten and 440 pages of story after story. Yeah, there’s a lot to it. I guess you were writing under the name of Bartley Scarborough. Yeah, Bart is a good guy. He’s a friend of mine who actually started organizing this with me literally about 15, 20 years ago. Just to give everybody the timetable, we could not release this stuff till now because everybody with criminal culpability is now deceased or one guy is doing life in jail without the possibility of parole for another crime. That’s why we waited so long. Bart organized this stuff. He had me go over the thoughts. And he actually, I don’t know how much he’s going to want to talk about it, but he actually was there when we spoke to some of our friends who gave us extreme detail about this. But in terms of the actual writing, I actually penned it all myself with Bart’s assistant. All right, great. And as you know by now, it’s no easy task to write, especially 400-some pages. That’s a lot of words. That’s a lot of work, guys. Trust me, that is a lot of work. [5:41] You’ve got to keep going over it. Good writing is hard because it takes about three rewritings to actually get it out. Did you find that? [5:51] I did. It’s definitely extremely hard to do with volumes like this going over the past so many years. And plus getting the information from our friends, it was extremely hard to do. It was very time consuming. And I need to stress for the audience, I was not present when any of these major crimes like the homicides went down. I was present for the other things in the book, horse racing, which I’m sure we’re going to talk about later, major fireworks sales. But I need the audience to know that I was not present when the homicides went down, even though I was a juvenile at the time, and that from the proceeds of the fireworks sale and the horse racing, I did not pocket the proceeds like other people did. I know there’s lawyers out there, and I’m paying some $1,000 an hour. I apologize to people, but the lawyers told me 100 times I need to make those facts clear. Okay. All right. You did not do any of this, but you were right next to people who did do this. So we’re talking about firsthand information, correct? That is correct. Now, again, I was there for some of the stuff. I was there for some of the entity in the book. I was definitely there for the major league fireworks deals and participated in those. The horse racing that we’ll get to later, I was there for that. But in terms of the hard stuff, the stuff with no statute of limitations, homicides, I was not there. [7:12] So tell me about these group of guys that you grew up with, that you started doing some of these things. We have some kind of interesting personalities in there. Tell us about those guys. Oh my gosh. We had a real collection of characters is the only way to put it. Now, growing up when we were very young, let’s call it 11, 12, 13, we all really had two goals in mind. We wanted to make money and we wanted to play sports at that age. And that’s what we did. We made money on anything, paper routes, shoveling snow, raking leaves. And what happened was being so competitive, we got into a feud with another group in the same town. Now, there’s no way around it. We were idiots at this age. Some of our guys were carrying guns. Two of the guys in particular, their parents, what we call, were on the job, which means they were cops. So they had access to guns. Another guy was able to get us guns. So the bottom line is you’ve got 13-year-old kids who… That have no fuse carrying guns. Here is where it all started. [8:11] My uncle, like my cousin’s dad, came to one of the baseball games, and we had no idea that he knew the other coaches. And all of a sudden, they realized these kids are carrying guns. They’re going to kill each other. So they sat us down, disarmed us. It’s a pretty funny thing that’s in the book. I remember my uncle saying, whoever has a weapon, you put it on the table right now. I take a sock out of my pocket. He’s, what’s wrong with you? He goes, I asked for weapons, not your dirty laundry. I go, there’s a 25 inside the sock. He was shocked. But what they did was this. They disarmed us. They said, you want to kill each other with fists? Go at it. But we have a better idea. Why don’t you sell fireworks? Why don’t you work for us? You’ll make money doing this. First year, we only had about a week before the 4th of July. We sold out a couple pallets that they had. Now, the second year, I said, can we get these same prices? They said absolutely We went nuts to sell this stuff We ended up with an order for $85,000, And that’s how the order was so big That John Gotti got brought into this He was their boss at the time That’s how we met him And again, people say John Gotti, John Gotti Well to us at the time John Gotti was the same as John Smith The name meant nothing to us. [9:26] So some of these guys, older guys that you started dealing with that sat you down were relatives. There were members of the Gambino family then of Gotti’s crew. That is correct. Yep. Yep. They actually had two guys out of the three guys that sat us down. And by the way, none of us, myself included, ever had even the slightest inkling that these guys were involved in organized crime. You actually had two guys that were Gambino guys and one guy who was also a coach who was with the Genovese. [9:54] That was the actual makeup of the three guys that sat us down. And this was that. What towns are you talking about out there in Long Island? Kind of guys that listen from New York. Sure. This is actually Syosset, believe it or not, which was a upper middle class area. Nice and calm, crime free. And again, most of everybody that was with us was from Syosset. [10:19] Interesting. So the fireworks thing, I’ve always wondered about that. I’ve noticed in Kansas City, the mob guys, several of them every year have these huge, big firework tents. And I started asking around. I found out that they might make $100,000 in about two or three weeks time off those fireworks. There must be immense profit in it. And it’s so that kind of profit and kind of a gray area crime, if you will, in some cities, they don’t allow fireworks to be sold or even to be shot off. Mob likes to get into that and make that money. So tell us a little bit more about how that worked. Who were your customers? You guys went out into the community and sold more. You were more like you weren’t retailers. You were more like found other people to retail. It sounds to me like tell me the nuts and bolts of how that worked. [11:05] That is exactly correct. Now, the first year when they gave us the two pallets with about five or six days, maybe a week before the 4th of July, we sold those strictly to local people we know. And by the way, as kids, we loved fireworks ourselves. We still do. I do. I can speak for myself. We love this stuff. Now, when I saw the prices, for example, that these guys can get us, and I’ll use a barometer, very common in New York, a mat of firecrackers, which is a pack of 80 packs inside, 16 firecrackers to a pack. You could buy that for $8 And it would just fly like hotcakes These guys were selling us the stuff At $3 a mat So all these prices Were anywhere from. [11:49] 70, sometimes even 80% cheaper than what we could sell them for. So the profit, like you said, was utterly enormous. Now we had a full year to work our second year because they said, yes, sell as much as you want, go ahead and get the pre-orders. We contacted everybody we knew. All of our guys had people in other places, Huntington, the town of Huntington, we did big business, other places out in Suffolk and even somewhere in the city. [12:13] And again, for young kids at that age to put together an order for $85,000. She knocked everybody. And that’s what really got their attention. And for that kind of money being fronted to us, that’s why they had to bring their boss in, which was John. The other thing that really shocked us too, I was worried about getting caught. Now the legal penalties for getting caught was nothing. Five or $10 fine, nothing on your record. It was nothing. However, the police could take all your firearms. If they took money like that from young kids, we’re finished. Our lives are over. and to be honest, the organization solved that for us. They sat us down with cops. The cops told us to our face, you will never have a problem. Don’t worry about it. And once I heard, that’s when I told our guys, go ahead and sell as much as you can, and that’s when we got the order for the two tractor trailers. I knew at that point in time, the risk is pretty much gone. Yes, there’s a risk of getting robbed, but we had two of our guys’ older brothers who were a really severe, a tough guy, one that’s referenced in the book a lot, Bubbles. And again, he’s a deceased, and we’ll talk about him more in terms of the Galante hit. So people that are going to rob us really would be like, why would I rob these guys? Look at who they’re with. So in my opinion, we had no risk, and that’s why we went nuts with this. [13:30] That’s the beauty of working with the mob. They usually had connections with law enforcement that could get you protected. Now, you brought Gotti into it. Tell us about meeting Gotti for the first time. [13:39] Was he all that, like they say? Was he just this real charismatic personality that you just wanted him to like you and wanted to do what he wanted you to do? What was that like? I’m glad you brought it up because I’m going to tell you that’s the funniest thing that ever happened to any of us in our lives. And I suspect it might have been one of the funniest things that ever happened to him. When we got this order for the two-tracked trailers, he wanted to meet us with some of his other people. One that turned out to be Angelo, quack, quack, Angelo Ruggiero. And we decided to meet at our friend’s house over in Syosset. It was during a school day, but we had no risk because his dad was a New York City cop. His dad wasn’t there. His mom would be out the whole day playing a card game she played called Mahjong. So we said, yeah, let’s do it at his house. Now, these guys show up. Again, we’re teens. We’re 13, 14, 15 in that range. One, a couple guys maybe a couple years older. And these guys were like in their low 30s. That’s all John Gotti was age-wise when we met him, I would say. [14:39] No older, I wouldn’t think, than 35. I could do the math, but right in that range. All nice cars, nice suits. They come in with all the samples. So we lay them all around my friend Jeff’s house I’m talking about in his stoves, his mother’s piano, the couches and everything And they’re going over stuff and they’re saying, look This stuff here comes $48 to a case Your price, I’m just making up numbers for argument’s sake Your price is $175 a case on this one You can easily sell this stuff for $600 or whatever the numbers were So we’re shocked Now to set the stage My friend’s mom was really A kind of a crazy lady she was very Loud and she was extremely Opinionated if not wild She would always kid my not kid She was serious to my friend Jeff saying You’re a no good bum this Boy’s gonna end up in jail she would berate Our friend into the ground I mean this kid was crazy believe me this kid was Driving us to school at 14 and 15 years Old didn’t have a worry in the world So Yeah. [15:40] This is where the humor came in. She came home unexpectedly. Apparently, one of the card players didn’t show up. They couldn’t do it. She walks into her house, and she sees fireworks all over. She sees us with guys who look like gangsters that are 35 years old, and she blows her stack. She screams, who are these hoodlums in my house? What are these devices these criminals have? What is this fool meaning her son done this time with nuts? And I’ll never forget John says to my uncle who was in there He says did you set this up as a gag? Very low so nothing we could hear except a few people And my uncle had a really weird look on his face He goes I wish I could get off that easy So we figure the deal is all over She’s going nuts I run up to her with the price lists And I say Mrs. Goldberg please I know we like to shoot a fire It’s not about that It’s about making money I show her the list And I reference before the matter firecrackers I point to it. I call these guys firework salesmen. That’s what I call John and Angelo. I go, these firework salesmen here can sell us this amount of firecrackers for $3. [16:49] We can sell it all day long for $8. There’s a fortune in this. So then instead of her blowing up, she goes, tell me more. So that was funny enough. So I go through more prices. And just to set the stage for your listeners, a lot of people in New York might know this term. People outside might not. I’m a Christian, but if you have a non-Christian, Jewish people call him Goy or Goyim. She’s looking at the lists, and she explodes in the loudest voice you’ve ever heard. If the Goyim will buy these devices, then sell them to the Goyim we were. We lost it. [17:24] She said that Angelo, my uncle, a bunch of the guys had to go outside. And I stepped outside with them, too, because they didn’t want to insult her and laugh in her face. I don’t know how John stayed in the house with her, but he did for a while. These guys were laughing so hard, tears were coming out of us. So the neighborhood girls that we knew saw these guys all dressed in suits. They thought we were crying, and they sincerely asked, are you guys okay what happened? It was because we were laughing so hard we started crying. So I said, let me get in here. The fireworks deal is more important. So she went over this stuff with us, telling us how we’re going to make money. Just insanity. The book really expands on this. And then afterwards, when John left the house, he also broke down in laughter. He didn’t want to do it in front of her. He couldn’t take it. Out of respect, he didn’t want to laugh in someone’s face like that. But he walked two doors down, and he freaking lost it. So I think it’s got to be one of the funniest things he’s ever had happen to him in his life. He said it was. And it just got crazier from there. [18:19] Now, was Angelo Ruggiero with him? He was his right-hand man. Was he there on this deal? Yeah, Angelo was there with him. Yep, he sure was. What was he like to deal with as a person? I’ve interviewed his son who has a show. What was he like? Was he funny? He seemed like he talked a lot and was a funny guy. I’m just curious. He did. And again, in the account that you guys are going to read about in the book, Tommy, who’s the main character in this book, who again, deceased and gave me all the interactions he had with him, explains what a nice guy he was. I know he had a violent side. I know he has a lot of hits under his belt, but he was apparently a ton of fun. [18:59] When I interacted with him, I thought he was freaking hilarious. And as you’ll see in the book, Angelo is really the one who fed all the inside information nonstop to our buddy Tommy, Tommy, who at that time was playing cards over at John’s Club in Ozone Park, the Bergen, very regularly at that point in time. And the book really traces Tommy about what happened, his interactions with Angelo, his interactions with everybody else. And when you get to the whole crux of the matter, Angelo is the one who told our good friend Tommy that, hey, the commission has authorized a hit on Galante. And the hit is to be done jointly with our family, meaning the Gambinos, and with the Bananos. And that John was going to be the leader of the Gambino faction. [19:48] Sonny Red and Delicato was going to be the leader of the Banano faction, and Joey Messino was not only the one taking the messages to and from Rusty, which is the Philip Mestelli in jail, but Joe Messino was going to supervise the entire operation. So that was the structure of it. Yeah, that’s what I’ve read about it. And also what you’re saying about Angelo Ruggiero is that’s one reason the Bureau was able to learn so much about Castellano because he would go to meetings at Castellano’s house, if I remember right, come back home and get on the phone or have some people come over. And he talked to him about, he said this and he said this and he said that and he said this. That gave him probable cause then to go into Castellano’s house. So he was known to be loose lips, and that’s why he got the moniker quack quack, I’ve heard. But I also heard it was because of the way he walked, so I’m not sure. No, that’s true. Both of what you’re saying is true. And just to touch on him one more time, very important. He loved my friend Tommy because Tommy got him out of more than a couple of jams. I’ll give an example. There was a guy in the Gambino family up in Connecticut. John always referred to him as the genius Tony Mungali And he put a firework sorter in with Angelo. [21:06] Now, this guy blew his stack because no fireworks came, and he had promised the entire neighborhood a gigantic fireworks show. He had his friends, his people of his family over there, neighbors and no fireworks. This guy blew his stack, and this story is detailed in the book. Tommy got a call from another Gambino guy the morning of July 5th, very early. He was still hungover from partying the night before. He said, oh, my God, what’s this about? It’s got to be something bad. Did somebody blow their hand off with fireworks? What’s going on? And the bad news was that this Tony had put a beef in saying, what’s wrong with you people? You didn’t do what you said. And he was blaming Angelo. Tony was all over Angelo. And the bottom line is Tony was right. It was Angelo’s fault. However, my friend Tommy never threw Angelo under the bus. My friend Tommy ate it. And he basically, it’s a real good recounting in the book. And there’s so many stories like this. There’s hundreds of them. But I’ll give you this one real quick. [22:03] Like, so Tommy basically told Tony Mengele, listen, how old are the kids that you promised this big fireworks show to? And Tony blew up. He’s like, what the F does it matter how old the kids are? But my friend Tommy was smart and he was going somewhere. He’s like, listen, these kids don’t know the difference between July 5th and July 4th. We’re going to come to your house tonight. We’re going to give it the most insane fireworks show anybody in your area has ever seen. We don’t want a dime. We’re so sorry this mistake happened They go up there I was with them at that point. [22:38] Nothing but fun. So welcoming. And again, my buddies, none of us would ever throw Angelo under the bus. And believe me, Tony and his uncle, Sandalo, he tried to pin it on Angelo. We said, no, it’s not his fault. It’s not his fault. Bottom line is those guys loved us. One of Tony’s workers ended up being a gigantic fireworks customer of ours. And to the best of my knowledge to this day, and I’m not involved in it in the slightest, To this day, all one of his guys does is sell fireworks in the Connecticut region. Makes a fortune. Interesting. And so that’s a wild story. But again, Angelo loved Tommy because so many times Tommy would say, look, Angelo didn’t do this. I did. What did Angelo do in return? He gave Tommy so many different pieces of information. And again, I won’t bog you down, but each one of these stories is so interesting. Angelo had some fireworks clubs that he made money on. [23:32] There’s no other way to put it. Angelo was not working much at all. And then one of these meetings, John brought everyone in and said, listen, from now on, these clubs that sell fireworks, particularly Oceanside, New York, Long Beach, Bayville, Massapequa, he goes, I’m giving them to you guys to run. And now, obviously, none of us want anything to do like that. We’re going to cut out his friends. We’re going to end up in a freaking meat grinder or end up in a cement truck. So we all told John we didn’t want it. John said, that’s it. It’s over. It’s yours. so then our next step was to make sure we figured out how much roughly those guys were making. [24:05] I give my friend tommy all the credit in the world he ended up giving angelo more money by a lot, for using the place than angelo ever made doing work and this time angelo doesn’t have to do any work angelo loved us all these guys loved us because we paid them more than they made and now they didn’t have to do a damn thing so our guys were very smart and calculating particularly Tommy, but some of the other ones. And that was a good Angelo story. Yeah, it is. And I’ve read that not only Gotti and in his neighborhood, but other mob guys around in New York and their neighborhoods, they would put on a huge fireworks shows for everybody in the neighborhood every year. Gotti particularly was noted for that. That is interesting, their love for fireworks and fireworks shows. Did they ever front you these things? Did they front you money or did Did they buy the fireworks? [24:56] You guys made this money each year, but I’m sure you’d spend it all. Then the following year, you’d have to come up with money. How did that work? The money worked. You wanted to be able to pay them back if they fronted anything. [25:08] Yes. You have a bunch of good questions here. I’m going to backtrack one second on what you said about guys in the life loving fireworks. That is a hundred percent fact. Love the fireworks and the stuff that people see at some of the celebrations over at the Bergen. Yeah, that was rooted from our guys providing it. Now, here is one of the reasons why John turned over these four locations to us. He had complaints from multiple people. Castellano, I believe Michael Franzese people. These guys went to the fireworks locations on the best days, like July 2nd and July 3rd, and they were closed. And John blew up at that. He’s making me look like a freaking idiot. I’m telling Castellano’s people, it could have been his nephews or little cousins or whatever, go to this place to load up with fireworks for free. These guys go to the place and it’s closed that’s one of the motivating factors why john, turned that business over to us we had it open all the time now in terms of fronting stuff absolutely the money was enormous those guys fronted it to us all the time big loads that’s just how it was young kids like that we can come up with anything near that kind of money. [26:14] And just another tidbit too the lady i told you about who would go wild when we were doing the deal. She offered to fund some money up too. And that’s detailed in the book as well. But yeah, as we got it to like year number three, I don’t remember us ever putting a penny up after year three. It was all fronted to us. Was it all cash too? When you went out to these clubs and these people with the neighborhoods and stuff, would they always just give you cash each year? [26:40] That is a great question, and the answer is yes for the people we retailed to, yes for the people that walked into the stores. However, we had wholesale customers that we would give credit to. Now, I’ll give you this story, which is also detailed in the book real quick. There was a street gang in Huntington. They were known as the Huntington Hitters, primarily Hispanics. They gave us an order, and one of our good friends got back from a younger kid that he helped out before that his older brother was intending to rob us when we dropped off the fireworks. [27:14] So we had what I thought was a brilliant plan made. Tommy was very instrumental in this, and I gave some feedback too. We told these guys, come meet us at this bar out on Jericho Turnpike in Huntington. We have some additional fireworks we want to show you guys and see if you want it, which was a lie. But we knew that they wouldn’t rob us then because we didn’t have anything honest. Let me tell you what we brought to that meeting. We brought Bubbles and two of his guys that were freaking deadly people. And they had freaking gym bags with them. And they said, don’t worry anything about security when we do this deal. And they showed him stuff inside the bags, heavy duty weaponry. So right away, these Huntington hitter group said, these are the wrong people to rob. So sure enough, right on cue, a day or two later, they called my buddy and said, you know what? We don’t want to do the fireworks business. We can’t. That I petitioned, and I got a few of my friends to agree, and Tommy definitely went with it too. You know what? These guys can make a fortune doing this. Let’s front them five or ten grand worth of this stuff and see what happens. And I’m like, it’s not going to cost us anything. Number one, I don’t think they’re going to rob us. If they do, what did we lose? $1,500 at the most? My friends said we were nuts, but we went with it. And I want to tell you, smartest move we ever made. [28:29] As every year we went by, we fronted them more and more. They were our first customer that we ever fronted a full tractor trailer to. Never had a problem getting one cent from them. It’s funny how that evolved. It’s just absolute madness. But again, I give Tommy a lot of the credit here and some of the other guys very sharp to come up with a business plan like this. [28:52] I tell you, this little crew you got in with early on, they were a bunch of hustlers. But you also had this deal with Gotti and horse racing and getting inside information on horse racing. There’s some pretty good stories there that are in the book. Tell the guys a little bit about that point. Then we’ll move on to the Galante hit. [29:11] Absolutely. Now, horse racing was interesting. We would go to a place called Roosevelt Raceway, which is over in Westbury, Long Island. Really not that far from where we lived over in Syosset. Now, again, I know the law was probably you had to be 18 to make a bet. They didn’t care. I was making bets there at 12 and 13 years old. I’ll tell you this one time that they did care, and I’ll get to that at the end of the question you asked, and you’ll see why. So we were clowns, but even as clowns, we could see it. If a horse, these were harness racing, by the way. If a harness race is coming down the stretch, you didn’t have to be a genius to see that one or two of these horses would hold back, but the other two jockeys would whip the crap out of their horses. So naturally, we felt cheated, even at young ages. Our guys were definitely certified. There’s no question about that. Our guys would throw things at the freaking jockeys. I’m talking about golf balls, rocks. Our guys were insane. And a lot of that stuff is detailed in the book, how crazy we were. But to get to your point, after I think it was the third or fourth year, John walked with Tommy. [30:17] And he said, you guys are bringing in so much money and doing so well. I want to give you a gift. And I remember Tommy, because myself and a little bit of Bart, but myself, I had to pull all this out of my friend Tommy. He knew he was going to pass away. And he wanted this story out in the public. Now, this guy, Tommy, never wanted his real name used, but he gave me detail after detail. Some of the stuff, like I’m explaining with the fireworks and the horse racing, I was there myself to see. But on the heavy stuff, he gave me detail after detail. same with a little bit to Bart. So this is how Tommy explained it to us. John gave him a sheet of paper and Tommy being a smartest said, oh, what is this, John? You want me to go play the freaking lottery with these numbers? What do these numbers mean? John, you smartest. Here’s what the numbers mean. The first number was the number of the race at Roosevelt Raceway. The next four numbers were the only four horses that could win. Usually these races had eight horses in them. Once in a while, seven, once in a while, nine, but eight was the norm. Those are the only four horses that can win. And for the audience, I want to explain to them how that’s possible. [31:24] Let’s say you have an eight horse harness race and you tell four of the jockeys, no matter what happens, you are not to come in the top. They’ll hold the horses back. And by the way, this is not just conjectural rumor. These guys got locked up for it later on down the line, jockeys and everybody what they were doing is it hold the four horses back the organization would have no idea what horse was going to win they just knew which four wouldn’t so what did they didn’t bet winner plays to show they would bet exactus triples and sometimes super factors which means all four and box those four around some yeah so in your example. [32:03] Basically, John gave our buddy Tom three races, and Tommy knew that this has got to be damn better than a tip. It has to be rock solid. So what happened was we all went there, and we knew nothing about it. We didn’t know that we should just bet a small amount of money. We had no knowledge about damaging a pool, so I’ll make it easy for the listeners. Tommy overbet these races like crazy. For example, if a three combination triple should pay $1,500, the first thing the FBI and the New York Racing Authority would ask is, why did this $1,500 triple pay only $400? And the reason is, and they knew it because the race was fixed. So everybody was betting those combinations. Now, the organization was smart enough to only bet small amounts of money, and they used the term not to damage the pool. That was a term they used all the time. We don’t want to damage the pool. [33:04] Again, throw us in the mix. We had absolutely no idea. We didn’t know any of this. So Tommy bet the crap out of these races, and he did damage the pool. And that brought the attention of the authorities. But worse than that, another long story in the book goes back to the Connecticut people, because I think the genius Tony Mengele was the one helping to fix the races. So they figured there was a leak on their side. And John Gotti actually thought he was going to get killed over this. And he told people, including Angelo, I might not be coming back from this meeting. I got sent for here. The horse pulls bad because John was really running the horses with Tony and some other guys. Tony grabbed him by chance outside of the Ravenite, Mr. Neal’s club, and they walked. [33:52] And Tony apparently was furious, like, yeah, let’s kill whoever damaged the pool, whoever did this. And then John apparently told him it was us. And then Tony says, oh, man, those fireworks guys, I love those guys. He goes, okay, nothing’s going to happen here. So apparently Tony went into the meeting, and he basically lied to the people there, Castellano and Neil Delacroach, and he says, listen, I found out the leak. The leak is on our side, and I’ll take care of it. And that’s how it worked But again, that ties back to the fireworks If that never happened, I don’t know what would have happened John had every intention of going in there and saying he’s screwed up He didn’t explain to us And he had no business giving us the numbers And he knows that, He did not have permission to give us anything at the racetrack He took it on himself to do it, And he got saved by that stroke of luck Of meeting Tony in front of the club before the meeting Had someone been outside, whoever Tommy Bellotti or anybody said Hey, get inside, the meeting’s going on Those two would not have had a chance to talk. I don’t know what would have happened, but I think it would have been very bad for Sean. Yeah, would have been. Yeah, that’s interesting. Now, explain to the guys about the pool. Everybody doesn’t know about the pool. [35:04] These exactors and trifectas, how that pool works. That is a great question because we had to have it explained to us. Let’s take any racetrack, and the first number you’re going to have is how many people bet on what’s focused on triples. Now, the definition of a triple is horses come in the order of one, two, three. So if you bet a 7-4-3 triple, the race must end 7-4-3 for you to hit that triple. Now, the next variation of that is if you like the 7-4-3, what most people will do is they will do what’s called boxing that triple, which means they have 7-4-3 and that’s a winner. [35:43] But so is 4-3-7. So is any combination. So is 2-7-4. [35:49] 3-7-4. Any of the combination of your three horses win. Now, they can tell what a triple should pay based on the amount that’s spent and what the odds are. Let’s say you have a horse that’s a mid shot, like an 8 or 10 to 1. You have a favorite in there and maybe a halfway of a little bit of a long shot. They know what that should pay in a certain range. Now, if you know that race was fixed, and by the way, it’s all pari-mutual, so the weighting is average. If you’ve got $10,000 in a triple pool and you have 10 winning tickets, each ticket’s going to get paid $1,000. And they would know that’s legitimate and that’s honest. And there should be about 10 people with those combinations. Now, if you have that same $10,000 worth of triple pool, and again, these are round numbers. It’s way higher, just for an example. and all of a sudden you’ve got 105 winning tickets when mathematically there should be 10 or 15 at the most the money drops that thousand dollar prize now might be 210 dollars and that’s what the feds and everyone new york racing authority looks for if you have a horse that’s eight to one first place let’s say ten to one second place and let’s say five to two third place that triple should pay something like, I’m guessing, $400, $500, $600 around that range. If that triple pays only $150, right away they know that somebody knew something. [37:16] Too many people bet on that combination. They know how many people probably will bet on any certain combination. And when that gets skewed, too many people bet on one combination, then they know something’s up. Interesting. That’s like these new sports prop bets in the apps on gambling, on the apps on sports. If all of a sudden there’s a whole lot of money goes out on some team on the spread and too much money goes down in one place, then they know there’s something going on. Somebody knows something and they start looking. [37:48] Exactly. They start looking and you make a great point about today’s sports betting. If you have a basketball player, and again, this is not conjecture. There’s already been indictments on this. Let’s say the guy is supposed to have 11 rebounds in a game. All of a sudden, when he has nine, he tells the coach, man, I hurt my ankle. I can’t play anymore. Now, if the balance was normal on his under and his over, no problem. What do we all know happens? The under money bet on this guy is radical. It’s a 95 to 5 ratio. They know right away it’s fixed. And that’s what I believe the guy in Toronto, the Toronto Raptors was doing. And so many other ones were too, but that’s everywhere. We were involved in that way, way back in the day as well, to some degree. We heard so much about it. Yeah, interesting. [38:34] Let’s get into Carmine Galante. The probably most famous, certainly the most famous image, even more famous than Albert Anastasia of Carmine Galante laying there. He was the Bonanno, longtime Bonanno capo and had risen up in the ranks. And he comes out of the penitentiary and Rusty Rustelli is supposed to be the next Bonanno boss. And Carmine decides that he’s going to act like he’s the boss. So let’s talk about how this whole thing started a little bit. That is a great observation. And that’s pretty much how the ball got rolling with those guys. Here’s how we got involved in this. [39:12] We had one of our good friends who was helping us with the fireworks and going to the clubs and having nothing but fun. And then the one night when Tommy was at the club, the cops came in. And I know a lot of people think, oh, Cosa Nostra doesn’t mix with the cops. People will think that they don’t know what they’re talking about. Look at the convictions with gas pipe cases and everybody else. John had guys on his payroll that ended up getting convicted and stuff. [39:39] The cops and Cosa Nostra do work together. despite what everyone else says. Look at us with the fireworks, for example. So anyway, at the card game, what I was told from Tommy is they kept getting messages after messages. And again, these messages at that time would come in over pay phones. There were no cell phones. So you’d have a guy sitting at the pay phone. And as I’m told, most of the messages would be coded numbers. Let’s say Angelo’s number was 167. The guy would just pick up the phone, tell number 167, which is Angelo. [40:11] Another set of code numbers and that might mean hey the cops are coming over now the cops came into the club they came into the bergen and apparently they told everybody listen nobody here is getting locked up we don’t want information we just need to give you some news and from what tommy says because he was there playing cards at the time they told him that our good friend michael had died in a car accident and they wanted to know should they go and wake his dad up and And his dad obviously was in the life made guy and do it that way. Or did John and Angelo perhaps want to go out to the house? They gave him the option to do it. And John and Angelo, of course, jumped at that. And they, whatever they did, they went at the house. I don’t know if they waited till they woke up in the morning, whatever it was and knocked on the door or whatever. But so that’s what happens now at the wake, by the way, just to make the story a little bit more clear, there. [41:09] This was probably our fourth year or so selling fireworks. And every year we sold fireworks, we met more and more people. So many of it is detailed in the book. I can’t even tell you the list of people we met. And you name it, Tony Ducks, Corralo, all these guys. So we’re meeting more and more people. Two in particular that we started hanging out with because they liked us because we were just crazy, drinking, women chasing maniacs, were Baldo and Chesery. And that’s Baldo Amato and Cheshire Bonventry. They were with the Bananos. And we were hanging out with them. They grabbed my friend Tommy at the wake and pulled him away. And everyone’s thinking, oh, they’re really Sicilian. We call them the Zips. They’re tough guys. They probably just don’t want to show their emotions because they love Michael in front of everybody. We didn’t know what was going on. They informed my friend Tommy that our friend, Michael, did not die in a car accident. It was a basic, supposed to be a warning that turned into a hit. [42:12] And Tommy’s, that’s nonsense. The cops told us the car was off the road. The car was a crumpled mess. That’s nonsense. But Baldo insisted and said, no, these guys shot him off the road. So nobody believed any of this. But we came up with the conclusion of, hey, we’re friends with the cops. The cops will take us to the impound yard. Let’s see for ourselves. House so those guys went over there and what tommy says they found bullet holes in like less than a minute they found a couple bullet holes so they knew right away that baldo was telling the truth now all this was going on other people would tell us don’t trust baldo don’t trust chesery the sicilians are the most ruthless cunning backstabbers you’re ever going to meet and i didn’t feel that way and neither did tommy or the other guys that were involved with us our other friends aunt and The whole gang, Gonzo, we didn’t feel that way at all. We thought they really had our best interest. So. [43:08] That stayed quiet, but two of our friends swore on that day, no matter who did this to our friend, Michael, no matter who they are, we don’t care what their rank or anything. [43:19] We’re going to make them pay for what they did. They’re going to have to answer for what they did to our friend. And we know the rules. You can’t touch a maid guy or an associate without getting permission. But we kept everything quiet for another reason. Michael’s dad I referred to as a maid guy. Now, you talk about crazy. This guy was nuts. This guy had no fuse. He’s detailed all over the book. For example, when John O’Neill would tell him to go out and just talk to a guy, don’t hurt him. This guy owes us a couple thousand. Just talk to him. The guy would end up with two broken arms. This guy had no fuse whatsoever. If he ever thought for a minute that somebody had killed his son, the worry was, and I think the worry is correct, he would have gone out and just killed better than adult targets all over the place. Whether they knew anything about it Which 99% of them knew nothing about this He would have just started killing people He would have started a war So that was the reason why the bosses, Did not want him And to his death he never knew that this happened They kept it from him for that reason There was no stopping this guy would have gone on a rampage So that was a big factor in that, So Then you talked before about the card games And Angelo. [44:30] More of these messages came in And my buddy Tommy noticed it And he said, Angelo, what’s going on? And so don’t worry after the card game, I’ll walk you down and we’ll talk to you. Apparently after the card games, Tommy and Angelo would walk down 101st Avenue and have these long talks. And Angelo said to Tommy, the commission has authorized a hit on Carmine Galante. We got the hit. John is our lead. [44:54] We have to do it jointly with the Bananas. Sonny Red is there, and Joe Massino is going to look at the whole thing and supervise the whole thing. So bells went off on my friend Tommy’s head. All of a sudden, he got everybody together. Not me, of course. I was not there when this transpired. I was not there when they organized the hit. But he got the other guys together, and he said, look, this is the guy who killed our friend. We have no risk now because the commissioner wants this guy dead. So these guys came out with what Tommy detailed to me. And by the way, it wasn’t just Tommy who detailed this to us. Bubbles detailed it to us. And there’s one big distinction I need to mention here. Tommy wanted all of this out. He did not want his real name used. [45:40] However, Bubbles wanted his real name used. He used to hang out with general views people. And he told me, he goes, use my name. I want people to know that I did this. And after he passed and that’s why inside the book we do reveal his real name and where he lived and the interesting thing for me was Bubbles and Tommy had no idea that each one of them was talking to me and to a small degree Bart about this so the details that they both gave were exactly the same the most ingenious hit I’ve ever heard of in my life they had police help from the 8-3 precinct over in Bushwick. Apparently, there was some cop over there that hated, I think it was a family dispute of some kind. The guy who was being, I think his grandmother or aunt or somebody was being shaken down by the bananas. So we had that asset. We now had Baldo and Chesery, who were Galante’s top bodyguards. So our guys went out on surveillance for months. And the funny thing about the surveillance was, who else was doing surveillance at the same time? [46:47] John Gotti was, and so was his people. So there was times like when Tommy and the guys would be close to a certain place. And by the way, he was killed at Joe and Mary’s. But that is not the only place that these guys did heavy surveillance on. And it’s not the only place that Galanti hung out at. So the book names a bunch of other places that the surveillance was done. So these guys would be there, and they’d look down the block, and possibly John and Angela were there doing the same surveillance. So they had to leave. Otherwise, John and Angela, what the hell are you guys doing over here? So that was funny to me on that regard But our guys in my opinion Put together the most ingenious hit Down to every single detail. [47:26] Basically took out the police help to help with the zips. The alibi is another crazy part of this. At that time, we would like to do a lot of fishing. We went off to a place called Sentinel Riches in Long Island. And one time we were night fishing over there and we saw guys jump off the boat, get onto smaller boats and come back an hour or two later with bundles. Now you don’t have to be Albert Einstein to realize what they were doing. They were running junk and they were Colombians. Yeah. So I discussed it a little bit with the boat’s captain and he said, just don’t say a word. Don’t go near him. Keep you guys away. We almost had a problem because again, our guys were drunk and our guys were carrying and our guys will, we came close to having a problem. But Tommy put this together. He had the boat captain go out one day and again, he didn’t tell all the people that were with, he didn’t tell his cousin’s crew for Shaw, who was with us that day, our guys jumped off the boat onto a smaller boat, took that boat to the Oak Beach Inn, took stolen cars in on that day, the July 12th, 1979, and they did the hit. [48:35] So Tommy’s uncle was furious with him. He thought he was lying to him. He goes, you’re lying. You were not there. I put you on that boat, which he did. Our friends were drunk and they drove him there on the road. Morning and i picked you up when that boat doc said don’t lie to me you’re on the boat all day and that’s when tommy and again this is detailed in the book like crazy told everybody can you say alibi and what do you mean he goes yeah you just said we were on the boat all day that’s not true, jumped the boat went to the oak beach and took the stolen cars did the work and came back so that was that shocked everybody in the room apparently when tommy was forced to detail, everything that happened on the hit. He even detailed for them all the cars that were involved. He detailed how the marked police cars actually held parking spaces for our guys in front of the place. One was, my understanding, about a half a block north. The other one was about a half a block south of the location over there, which was 205 Knickerbocker. They held the parking spaces. Our guys rolled up. [49:37] And if there was something going on, like, for example, FBI surveillance or unmarked cops in the place, those cop cars were not giving up the space. Our guys would honk and flash at them. But if they did not give up the spaces, the signal to our guys was the place is dirty, leave. So we had a lot of built-in signals like that. And then when they gave up the parking spots, both of the cops moved from one north heading south, one south heading north. What did that do? That let them both take one more scan of the block. Is the block dirty? And if the block was dirty, they were going to blow the sirens and everything was off. But the details, again, that are in the book about this hit are freaking shocking how meticulous it was. [50:22] Interesting. I have one question that Galante’s guy, Cousin Moy, they called him, Angelo Prezzanzano, I probably butchered that, but he was off sick that day. Was he part of it or was he just off sick that day? I’m going to tell you, to be honest, I have no knowledge of that. I know that Boldo and Chessery were the primary bodyguards that day. Yeah, they were there that day. I actually have no knowledge, but the other couple of details that are just beyond fascinating, how our guys operated on this. For example, when the car pulled up with one driver and three shooters, one of the shooters, again, he wanted to be named, so we’re naming him. It was Bubbles. [51:01] And the other two guys, Bubbles was a very big-built guy. He would easily be spotted. Plus, he knew a lot of people in the city. He stayed in the car. The two guys that were normal-built, they went inside. And I want the listeners to understand how skilled these guys were at this hit. [51:19] They had provided Baldo and Chesery with dark jackets that day. Now, I’ve read some stuff that people said, oh, they had big, heavy leather jackets on. That’s a lie. They were lightweight summer jackets. And people said, why do that? The answer is because at that time, people were wearing white and pastels and light clothing. It was burning hot that day in the summer. And if you want to spot somebody in a restaurant, you want them to stick out like a sore thumb. So that was the motivation for those black jackets. Now, check this one out. And again, the book goes through this in so many more details. Our guys walked in prearranged with Baltimore Orioles baseball hats. Because again, keep in mind, Chesaree and Boulder did not have a great command of the English language. They didn’t really 100% know American customs. And we showed them Mets and Yankee hats that everybody has. So now we show them a distinctive bright orange baseball hat with a bird on it that nobody could mistake. Here was the signal. Our guys walked up to them face to face with these hats on. [52:22] Now, that was slick. That was slicker shit, man. It was smart because if the place was hot, if Boldo and Chesery realized there was too many maid guys in there or surveillance guys or FBI in there, they were to immediately tell our guys it’s too crowded today. Only get takeout. Only get takeout. The place is too crowded. That was a signal to our guys to walk out and to tell the people the place is hot. leave. These guys had multiple hot signals here that if something was wrong, they would do it. Now, if they didn’t give those signals, our guys were to turn their hats around. So they walked in with the hats like a normal baseball player. They walked out with the hats like a catch you would wear with his hat on backwards. That was to give Boulder and Chesery the signal, Boulder and Chesery the signal this thing was going down. Now, here’s the most fascinating thing about the story is Tommy recanted for us. That day, July 12th, 79, was supposed to be a dry run. [53:28] And they told everybody, just do it like it’s real. Now, we were all hoping that Bould on Chesaree would do it like it was real, and they did it. They walked out of the place, and they walked north. I believe in their minds, they said, this is a dry run. Nothing’s going to happen. Then they heard the shots, and that’s what happened. And I want to elaborate on this because, again, there’s so much built in here. One of the witnesses said that, and I’ll tell you who the witness was. It was one of the guys who killed his daughter, Torano. His daughter had said that, oh, I saw Baldo crouched over with a gun. Gary, you’re a former detective. You’ve got a scene with four people shot, three dead. And you have a witness saying that a guy was in there with a gun out. You tell me how the guy is not arrested at the very least and tried. And I’m going to give everyone the answer here of why that didn’t happen. And I think it’s pretty clear. [54:25] I’m convinced that the FBI had static surveillance on the place, just like they did to Mr. Neal’s club that we always call the, basically the FBI screen test. Yeah. That’s number one. And, or they had a guy up the street. So I believe what happened here was they looked at what this witness said, and then either their own cameras or a human agent that they had on the streets said, wait a second, we cannot charge these guys. I saw a bold on Chesaree, whatever the number would be, 200 feet up the street before the shots rang out. They’re innocent. They didn’t do the shooting. Otherwise, of course, you got a witness saying, I saw a guy behind a table in a gun in a quadruple shooting, triple homicide, and that guy’s not going to get arrested. So obviously there was something there. [55:16] I was wondering why. And I’m going to take another step for people, too. And again, terrible. Cosa knows the story ever told. But to take this one step further, the cop cars were there. There were two marked cars close in proximity when this went down. I think the FBI might have said, wait a second here. What just happened? One guy that we hate, Galante, is dead. Some other guy, a cap on a maid guy are gone. Look at our cameras. How could we do anything here? There’s marked cops here. I think the feds had to realize the cops played a role in this. [55:50] Let’s just kill it and move on. I think that’s possible. Now, the cop cars were also referenced by Tommy. He told us the meeting that they had. It was a life or death meeting, by the way. When John Gotti and other people went to that meeting, Tommy’s uncle and people like that, there was a good chance none of them were going to come out alive. The book details that Castellano, who everyone knows, wanted to kill John Gotti, had a cast of killers in that building. Roy DeMail’s people were in there. There were people in there that you couldn’t even believe. Nino Gadge’s people in there. Hardcore butchers. They knew how to dispose of and chop up bodies. So in that meeting, apparently what Tommy made clear, and again, we took notes, we went over this for hours, days, literally years. [56:36] Sonny Red and Delicato made the statement in that meeting because, again, Sonny Red and Delicato put in the beef, hey, you guys did this hit without us. John Gotti’s saying, fuck you. Excuse my language. Effu. You guys did the hit without us. Nobody knew who did this hit, and I’ll get to that later. What happened here was that Sonny Red and Delicato and his people made an immediate beef, and we’ll talk about that later, saying, hey, The commission said this is to be a joint hit Between the Bananos and the Gambinos And I can definitely confirm From what they told me, Banano people and Gambino people Were on this hit together and doing surveillance So when Galante got killed Sonny Red and his Banano people Were furious Because they thought John Gotti went off And did a hit against the commission’s wishes At the same time, John Gotti was furious At Sonny Red and his people Thinking they did the work Without them being notified But the thing that Tommy always stressed is, again, that meeting was a death trap. Castellano always hated Gotti. Castellano wanted Gotti out. And this was the chance to do it for breaking the commission rule. So Castellano had hardcore murderers there that day. Roy DeMeo and his crew. [57:49] Incredible. You know, Gadgi, a cast of murderers. And John Gotti being street smart. And again, this is fully detailed in the book. It’s just too much to talk about here. John Gotti had made some very heavy precautions himself. Going into that meeting. But what the catch for me was, Sonny Red and Delicato said something like, whoever did this hit was either the most incompetent hitman ever, or possibly they were zips from Montreal that couldn’t give a crap if they were shot at or in a police shootout or whatever. They just didn’t care. And then Tommy said, what if I tell you that those cops were in on the hit? And that silenced the room. And that’s when Tommy had to come clean and talk about everything about it. And it shocked the people that were in that run that this hit was done like that. But that’s, that’s really how this thing was done. Interesting. Guys, you got to get this book. I’m telling you, Made on Long Island. And there’s a whole lot more details, these behind the scenes details about the Galante hit with some real people involved. It’s a lot different story than what we’ve ever heard. I know that. And even people went to jail behind this. But it was mainly on the say-so of informants who, as we know, will pretty much say anything to g

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Do you think Len Sassaman and Hal Finney created Bitcoin?FEATURING:Thomas Hunt (https://www.twitter.com/madbitcoins)THIS  WEEK:$77,508 / $1 = 1,290 SAT - Bitcoinalhttps://bitcoinal.com/Analyst predicts Bitcoin doubling amid Fed's balance sheet expansion - TheStreet Crypto: Bitcoin and cryptocurrency news, advice, analysis and morehttps://www.thestreet.com/crypto/markets/analyst-predicts-bitcoin-doubling-amid-feds-balance-sheet-expansion'Finding Satoshi' Makes the Case for Hal Finney, Len Sassaman as Bitcoin Co-Creators - Decrypthttps://decrypt.co/365075/finding-satoshi-makes-the-case-for-hal-finney-len-sassaman-as-bitcoin-co-creators?amp=1Top U.S. Commander Says Bitcoin "Shows Incredible Potential"https://bitcoinmagazine.com/news/pacific-commander-calls-bitcoin-valuableScammers Target Stranded Ships In Iran With Bitcoin Feeshttps://bitcoinmagazine.com/news/bitcoin-scammers-target-stranded-shipsBerenberg Tells Investors To Put 45% In Gold, Silver And Bitcoin — Ditches Bonds Entirely | IBTimes UKhttps://www.ibtimes.co.uk/berenberg-asset-allocation-strategy-excludes-bonds-1793029Trump to host bash for crypto investors tied to his coin sales | Donald Trump | The Guardianhttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/apr/23/trump-crypto-memecoin-event-mar-a-lagoBitcoin 'Q-Day' Draws Nearer as Quantum Researcher Breaks Simplified Key - Decrypthttps://decrypt.co/365444/bitcoin-q-day-draws-nearer-quantum-researcher-breaks-simplified-key?amp=1Bitcoin's Quantum Problem Is Really A Governance Crisis In Disguise: UTXOhttps://bitcoinmagazine.com/news/bitcoin-quantum-problem-governance-crisis__________________________________________________________________________________World Crypto Network https://www.worldcryptonetwork.com/On This Day in World Crypto Network Historyhttps://www.worldcryptonetwork.com/onthisday/---------------------------------------------------------------------------Please Subscribe to our Youtube Channelhttps://m.youtube.com/channel/UCR9gdpWisRwnk_k23GsHf

“The Six Who Did Not Die”: Eight flawless pearls, six native divers, and a captain willing to do the math — the sea keeps better books than he does. | #RetroRadio EP0637CHAPTERS & TIME STAMPS (All Times Approximate)…00:00:00.000 = Show Open00:01:30.028 = CBS Radio Mystery Theater, “The Waiting Room” (September 05, 1977)00:45:54.440 = Creeps By Night, “Six Who Did Not Die” (July 11, 1944) ***WD01:13:28.398 = The Crime Club, “Cowhide” (October 02, 1947)01:42:49.458 = Danger Dr. Danfield, “Sam hardy Makes a Bet With Death” (December 15, 1946)02:07:46.457 = CBC Deep Night, “Bonehouse” (August 12, 2005)02:40:56.361 = The Devil And Mr. O, “Big Mr. Little” (November 12, 1971) ***WD03:09:13.902 = Diary of Fate, “Peter Drake” (February 23, 1948) ***WD03:38:40.669 = Dimension X, “The Man In The Moon” (July 14, 1950) ***WD04:08:22.837 = The Strange Dr. Weird, “Man Who Talked With Death” (December 12, 1944) ***WD04:20:55.067 = The Eleventh Hour, “Actor”04:47:27.492 = Escape, “Confidential Agent” (April 02, 1949)05:16:54.125 = Show Close(ADU) = Air Date Unknown(LQ) = Low Quality***WD = Remastered, edited, or cleaned up by Weird Darkness to make the episode more listenable. Audio may not be pristine, but it will be better than the original file which may have been unusable or more difficult to hear without editing.CUSTOM WEBPAGE: https://weirddarkness.com/WDRR0637

This is an eclectic episode where we catch up on some of the news floating around. First, we talk about the new Neo Geo being released along with 10 games. The console itself will be 250 USD, and the games $90 each. Or you can get a bundle of the console, and all ten games for 1k even. Seems steep until you compare it to the price of the original Neo Geo: 1k for the console, 200 bucks per game in 1990 money. Personally, I have to ask: who wants this? In this day and age, is this anything beyond a collectors item? And then it hits me: that's exactly what they said about the original Neo Geo. Maybe the universe is healing. Then, we talk about the new, lower, Game Pass price, and finally we talk about Shuhei Yoshida's comments about Jim Ryan. They should shock people because comments like this just don't really happen in the game industry, and especially not from the Japanese side. Makes you wonder how poorly Jim's tenure is viewed if Yoshida casually dropped these comments.

Fanatics Premier Auction system is broken. No One knows when it will end- and they keep all lots open for what reason? Makes no sense.Oh yeah- and even if you can stay awake- good luck trying to win anyway.

Welcome back to the Mindful Hunter Podcast! In this solo Q&A episode, I dive into a massive backlog of listener questions, covering everything from controversial gear opinions to advanced backcountry tactics. We tackle some heated topics right out of the gate: Do you actually learn anything on a guided hunt, or are outfitters just there to punch your tag? Jay also shares his unfiltered, controversial thoughts on the new 7mm Backcountry cartridge and explains why ecosystem support is the only thing that keeps a new cartridge alive. We also get into the nitty-gritty of meat care, including Jay's counter-intuitive method for packing out and transporting meat for days without using a single cube of ice. Other topics include navigating treacherous alpine terrain, whether you can truly trust other hunters in the field, and how to stay calm and make good decisions when the pressure is on. Plus, get the latest updates on Mindful Munitions, the upcoming technical apparel launch, and some exclusive outfitting opportunities. Whether you're looking for gear reviews, scouting strategies, or just some honest, unfiltered hunting talk, this Q&A is packed with actionable advice to help you level up this season. Chapters 00:00:00 - Intro & Housekeeping (Apparel Blowout, Outfitting Spots, Mindful Munitions) 00:03:23 - What's the typical process for setting up a meat pack-out service? 00:06:03 - Have you done any testing with the SIG rangefinders fog mode? Does it actually help? 00:10:12 - How much benefit is there in hiring a guide when first starting out hunting? 00:15:57 - What kind of parameters did you have when deciding on pre-season scouting while still working a 9 to 5? 00:18:58 - When applying across the West, do you look at harvest success as a valuable metric? 00:23:00 - What winter shelter are you running this year? 00:24:03 - Take us through the process of purchasing a custom rifle build and bringing it back to BC. 00:25:17 - Any initial thoughts on the Outdoor Vitals quilt vs. Katabatic? 00:29:48 - Sitka down puffy review request. 00:30:15 - Navigable routes in the alpine: What are you looking for and/or avoiding? 00:41:00 - How do you stay present in high-pressure moments instead of rushing decisions? 00:46:12 - 7mm Backcountry: Yay or nay? Will we see a steel case revolution? 00:50:13 - TRT: How or where to start? 00:50:34 - Tips for black bear and mule deer hunting in a 12-ish year old burn. 00:54:29 - Any plans to do a late-season whitetail gear comparison of Sitka vs. Kuiu? 00:55:50 - Cooler size/selection and what does your meat care look like for multiple days? 00:59:14 - Funny that Kuiu got bought out by the same people that are elitist and against public land. 00:59:32 - Bone-in versus deboning after a kill (specifically mule deer and elk). 01:00:50 - Do you trust other hunters? 01:04:00 - Gear made by a non-hunting company that hunters use that a hunting company should redo? 01:04:30 - What's your personal hunting goal for 2026 outside of guiding? 01:06:21 - Makes sense to carry 12x50s, SIG Zulu 6s, and a mini spotter for deer? 01:07:58 - Dry area southern Alberta mountains or foothills for spring bear strategy 01:09:21 - Outro & Final Thoughts.   Jay Nichol jay@mindfulhunter.com https://www.mindful-reviews.com/ https://www.mindfulhunter.com/   Forged In The Backcountry https://forgedinthebackcountry.com/   Merch https://www.mindfulhunter.com/shop   Newsletter https://www.mindfulhunter.com/contact   IG https://www.instagram.com/mindful_hunter/   Podcast https://www.mindfulhunter.com/podcast   Free Backcountry Nutrition Guide Free Training Guide For Mountain Hunting https://www.mindfulhunter.com/tools  

Following a Twins day game, Jason asks the audience what new players should go do on their off day tomorrow? Then, a Wisconsin senator wants to make nationally streamed games more available to local audience. Makes sense, doesn't it?

For all those who missed out on London, see you in Miami next week!Notion, the knowledge work decacorn, has been building AI tooling since before ChatGPT, with many hits from Q&A in 2023 and unified AI in 2024 and Meeting Notes in 2025. At the end of their last Make user conference, Ryan Nystrom teased Notion 3.0's Custom Agents - and they are finally embracing the Agent Lab playbook!Sarah Sachs and Simon Last of Notion join us for a deep dive into how Notion built Custom Agents, why it took years and multiple rebuilds to get right, and what it means to turn a productivity tool into an agent-native system of record for enterprise work.We go inside the product, engineering, evals, pricing, and org design decisions behind one of the most ambitious AI product efforts in software today — from early failed tool-calling experiments in 2022 to agent harnesses, progressive tool disclosure, meeting notes as data capture, and the long-term vision for software factories and agentic work.We discuss:* Sarah and Simon's path to launching Notion Custom Agents, and why the feature was rebuilt four or five times before it was ready for production* Why early agent attempts failed: no tool-calling standard, short context windows, unreliable models, and too much complexity exposed to the model* The “Agent Lab” thesis: not just wrapping a model, but understanding how people collaborate and building the right product system around frontier capabilities* How Notion thinks about roadmap timing: not swimming upstream against model limitations, but also building early enough that the product is ready when the models are* Why coding agents feel like the kernel of AGI, and how Notion is thinking about “software factories” made up of agents that spec, code, test, debug, review, and maintain codebases together* How Sarah runs AI engineering at Notion (“notes from Token Town”): objective-setting over idea ownership, low-ego teams comfortable deleting their own work, and a culture designed to swarm around fast-changing opportunities* The “Simon Vortex,” company hackathons, and why security gets pulled in early rather than late* How Notion organizes AI: core AI capabilities and infrastructure, product packaging teams, and a broader company mandate that every product surface must increasingly work for both humans and agents* Why prototypes have become much easier to build internally, and how “demos over memos” changes product development inside a tool the whole company already uses every day* Notion's eval philosophy: regression tests, launch-quality evals, and “frontier/headroom” evals that intentionally only pass ~30% of the time so the company can see where model capabilities are going* What a “Model Behavior Engineer” is, and why Notion treats eval writing, failure analysis, and model understanding as a distinct function rather than just software engineering* The changing role of software engineers in the age of coding agents, and why the new job looks less like typing code and more like supervising a rigorous outer system of agents, PRs, and verification loops* How the “software factory” should work: specs, self-verification, bug flows, subagents, and minimizing human intervention while preserving the invariants that matter* A live walkthrough of a Notion Custom Agent handling coworking space tenant applications by triaging email, enriching applicants with web search, and writing structured data into a Notion database* How agents compose inside Notion: shared databases as primitives, agents invoking other agents, “manager agents” supervising dozens of specialized agents, and memory implemented simply as pages and databases* Notion's take on MCP vs CLI: why Simon is bullish on CLI's self-debugging nature, where MCP still makes sense, and how Sarah thinks about capability, determinism, permissioning, and pricing alignment* The evolution of Notion's internal agent harness: from early JavaScript coding agents, to custom XML, to Markdown and SQL-like abstractions, to tool definitions, progressive disclosure, and a much shorter system prompt* Why Notion cares about teaching “the top of the class,” building for sophisticated operators rather than abstracting away too much capability for everyone* How agent setup works today: agents that can configure themselves, inspect their own failures, and edit their own instructions — with guardrails around permissions* How Notion prices Custom Agents: credits as an abstraction over tokens, model type, serving tier, web search, and future sandbox costs; why usage-based pricing was necessary; and how “auto” tries to match the right model to the right task* Why Notion is not eager to train a foundation model, where they do fine-tune and optimize today, and why retrieval/ranking is one of the most important investment areas as more searches come from agents rather than humans* Why Meeting Notes became one of Notion's strongest growth loops: not just as transcription, but as high-signal data capture that powers search, custom agents, follow-up workflows, and the broader system of record for company collaboration* Why Notion is more interested in being the place where collaboration data lives than in building hardware themselves — and how wearables or other capture devices may eventually feed into that systemSarah SachsLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahmsachsX: https://x.com/sarahmsachsSimon LastLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-last-41404140X: https://x.com/simonlastFull Video EpisodeTimestamps* 00:00:00 Introduction and launching Notion Custom Agents* 00:01:17 Why Notion rebuilt agents four or five times* 00:03:35 Building for where models are going, not just where they are* 00:05:32 The Agent Lab thesis, wrappers, and product intuition* 00:08:07 User journeys, leadership, and low-ego AI teams* 00:13:16 The Simon Vortex, hackathons, and bringing security in early* 00:16:39 Team structure, demos over memos, and building for agents* 00:20:25 Evals, Notion's Last Exam, and the Model Behavior Engineer role* 00:27:37 Evals as an agent harness and the changing role of software engineers* 00:30:42 The software factory: specs, verification, and agent workflows* 00:32:18 Live demo: a custom agent for coworking space applications* 00:35:08 Composing agents, manager agents, and memory as pages* 00:38:15 Notion Mail, Gmail, native integrations, and tools* 00:39:43 MCP vs CLI and the cost of capability* 00:44:13 When Notion uses MCP vs building its own integrations* 00:47:43 The history of Notion's agent harness rebuilds* 00:55:35 Power users, public tools, and the setup agent* 00:58:01 Self-fixing agents, permissions, and “flippy”* 01:01:13 Pricing, credits, and choosing the right model automatically* 01:09:01 Why Notion isn't training its own frontier model* 01:14:07 Retrieval, ranking, and search built for agents* 01:17:27 Meeting Notes as data capture and workflow automation* 01:21:18 Wearables, hardware, and Notion as the system of record* 01:23:45 OutroTranscript[00:00:00] Alessio: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio founder of Kernel Labs and I'm joined by swyx, editor of the Latent Space.[00:00:11] swyx: Hello. Hello. We're back in the beautiful studio that, uh, Alessio has set up for us with Simon and Sarah from Notion. Welcome.[00:00:18] Sarah Sachs: Thanks for having us.[00:00:19] Alessio: Thanks for having us. Yeah.[00:00:20] swyx: Congrats on the launch recently the custom agents, finally it's here. How's it feel?[00:00:26] Sarah Sachs: We ship things slowly. So it had been in Alpha for a little bit and at the point at which is it's an alpha, um, there's a group of people that are making sure it's ready for prod, and then there's a group of people working on the next thing.So sometimes some of these launches are a bit delayed satisfaction, so it's quite nice to remind yourself all the work you did because we do have a habit of like. Being two or three milestones ahead. Uh, just ‘cause you have to be, you know, you can't get complacent. Um, but it's been great that people understood how this is helpful.And I think that's just easier in general building AI tools today than it was two, three years ago. People kind of get it and so that user education, um, there's just, it was our most successful launch in terms of free trials and converting people and things like that. It was really successful, so yeah.But there's a lot to build.[00:01:12] swyx: Making it free for three months helps.[00:01:16] Sarah Sachs: Yep.[00:01:17] Simon Last: It was definitely super exciting for me because it's probably the fourth or fifth time that we rebuilt that.[00:01:22] swyx: Yes.[00:01:23] Simon Last: And I mean,[00:01:24] swyx: you've been building this since like 20, 22.[00:01:26] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, like, it was even right when we got access to like GPT four in late 20 22, 1 of the first ideas we had is like, oh, okay, let's make an agent that I, we used the word assistant at the time, there wasn't really the word, the word agent yet, but, oh, we'll give an access to all the tools the notion can do, and then it, we run in the background like, like do work for us.And then we just tried that many times and it just. Was too early. Um,[00:01:48] swyx: I need to force you to like double click on that. What is too early? What didn't work?[00:01:52] Sarah Sachs: We were fine to, like, before function calling came out. We were trying to fine tune with the Frontier Labs and with fireworks, like a function calling model on notion functions.This is right when I joined. I joined because, um, we needed a manager as Simon was needed to be able to go on vacation. So, uh, that's, that's around when I joined, so you can speak much more to it.[00:02:11] Simon Last: Yeah, we did partnerships with both philanthropic and open AI at different times, uh, to try to, at the time the, I mean, when we first tried, there wasn't even a constant of like tools yet.We, we sort of designed our own like, like tool calling framework and then we tried to fine tune the models to, uh, to use it over multiple turns. Um, and because it, it didn't work well out the box, I think. Yeah. The models are just too dumb and the context thing was also way too short.[00:02:37] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:02:37] Simon Last: Um, and yeah, we just kind of banged our head against it for a long time.Uh, unfortunately it was always like, there was always like sort of. Glimmers that it was working, but um, it never felt quite robust enough to be like a useful, delightful thing. Um, until I would say, uh, the big unlock was probably like Sonic 3.6 or seven, uh, early last year. And that's when we started working on our agent, which we shipped last year.Um, and then, and then uh, uh, custom agents, kinda a similar capability and that, that one just took longer because we, we just wanted to get the reliability up a lot higher. ‘cause it's actually running in the background.[00:03:14] Sarah Sachs: And the product interface of like permissions and understanding, you know, this custom agent is shared in a Slack channel with X group of people and has access to documents that are surfaced to Y group of people.And the intersect experts, Y might not be whole. And so how do you build the product around making sure administrators understand that permissioning took multiple swings.[00:03:35] Alsesio: Everything is hard back at the end of the day. Yeah. I'm curious, like when the models are not working, how do you inform the product roadmap of like, okay, we should probably build, expecting the models to be better at some reasonable pace, but at the same time we need to, you know, you had a lot of customers in 2022.It's not like you were a new company or like no user base.[00:03:54] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean I think there's always the balance of, you know, like you want to be a GI pilled and thinking ahead and building for where things are going. Uh, but also you wanna be like shipping useful things. And so we always try to like, like keep a balance there.You know, we. We try to take clear, like a portfolio approach. You know, we're always working on multiple projects and, and we're always trying to work on, you know, maintaining things where that have already shipped, like, like shipping new things that are like eminently working well and make them really good.And, and then we wanna always have a few projects that are a little bit crazy. Um,[00:04:23] Alsesio: and what are the a GI peel projects that you have today? I'm curious about, uh, you don't have to share exactly what you're working on, but I'm curious what are things today that maybe in 18 months people will be like, oh, obviously this was gonna work[00:04:35] Sarah Sachs: 18 months.[00:04:37] Alsesio: Yeah, 18 months is, you know,[00:04:37] Sarah Sachs: it's a long time and Yeah. Yeah.[00:04:39] Simon Last: I mean, there's a number of things happening. I think one thing that's becoming more clear is I think like, like, uh, coding agents are the kernel of EGI, sort of, everything is a coding agent. Mm-hmm. I think that's, that's sort of one, one direction.Um, and then, yeah, the exciting thing about that is sort of your agent can sort of bootstrap its own software and capabilities and actually debug and maintain them. And so yeah, we're, we're, we're thinking a lot about that. And then, yeah, like, like another category of things that I'm, I'm really excited about is like, uh, we call the software factory also.People are using this, uh, this, this sort of word. Um, basically it just means can you create sort of like a, as automated as possible, a workflow for developing debugging. Mm-hmm. Merging, reviewing, and maintaining a code base and a service where there's a bunch of agents working together inside, and like, like how does that work?[00:05:28] Sarah Sachs: If you think back to your initial question, like, why did this take so long? I think something,[00:05:32] swyx: I didn't say that, but Yes. Okay. Go ahead.[00:05:34] Sarah Sachs: Why, what, what changed over the three and half years of trying[00:05:37] swyx: it? Exactly. Right. Because most people always say like, it didn't work yet. Then reasoning models came, then it worked.I was like, okay, let's go a little[00:05:43] Sarah Sachs: bit. That's, I mean, that's part of it, but I think the other part of it that I actually think is really what will set notion apart for every new capability is we have like. Two skills that are crucial when it comes to frontier capabilities. One is not letting yourself swim upstream.So like quickly realizing if you're just pressing against model capabilities versus not exposing the model to the right information, not having the right infrastructure set up. That and of itself is the skill of intuition. And the second is to see, okay, you're not swimming upstream. Which direction is the river flowing and what is like, how do we think ahead about the product and start building it even if it's not great yet, so that when it is there, we're ready for it.Right? And like those can sometimes feel like counterintuitive things. Like we can be trying to fine tune a tool calling model when they don't exist yet. And that the trick is to not do that for too long, but realize that there was something there. And we've had a lot of things which like, um, we're just like not swimming in the right direction with the streams.I think we had multiple versions of transcription before we got meeting notes, right? Oh, I gotta talk[00:06:39] swyx: about that. Yeah.[00:06:40] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. Um, and so. I, I, I think that like we, we really closely partner with the Frontier Labs on capabilities and we also have to have strong conviction on, as those capabilities move.Notion is about being the best place for you to collaborate and do your work. And how does that narrative change if the way that we work changes?Yeah.[00:06:58] swyx: Yeah. You told me you were a fan of the Agent Lab thesis, and this is, this is kind of it, right?[00:07:02] Sarah Sachs: Right. I show that thesis to so many candidates. Like I have it as like micro chrome autofill.Um, at this point, like it's one of my most visitations[00:07:10] swyx: because like, is this the, here's why you should work in notion and not open, open eye. I, it's like,[00:07:14] Sarah Sachs: here's, here's what's different about it.[00:07:16] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:16] Sarah Sachs: And here's why. It's not just a rapper. I actually think more and more people understand it's not just a wrapper.[00:07:21] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:22] Sarah Sachs: Um, and by the way, like in the beginning, parts of what we build are wrappers on functionality. That works well, of course, but that's not really the most, um. I would say that's not the product that, that drives revenue. And that's not necessarily always what users need.[00:07:35] swyx: I mean, you know, notion is the AWS wrapper, but like the, the wrapper is very beautiful and like very, very well polished.So[00:07:40] Sarah Sachs: like the analogy,[00:07:41] swyx: like[00:07:42] Sarah Sachs: the analogy that I've been coming back to his Datadog in AWS[00:07:45] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:46] Sarah Sachs: So, uh, Datadog could not exist with, without cloud storage. Right. That it's kind of fundamental that that works. Um, and AWS has like a CloudWatch product, but Datadog is an expert on understanding how people want observability on the products they launch.And we're experts in understanding how people wanna collaborate, and that's really where our expertise lies.[00:08:04] swyx: Totally.[00:08:04] Sarah Sachs: Um, regardless of the tools that we use,[00:08:07] Alsesio: I'm kind of curious how you think about implicit versus explicit expertise. I feel like Datadog is half and half implicit and explicit. It's like they understand across markets and industries what engineering teams usually look for.With notion, it's almost like more of the expertise is at the edge because you as a platform, you're like so horizontal that the end user is not really the same. Mm-hmm. Like with Datadog, the end user is always like, yeah, an engineering lead, a kinda like SRE related person with notion. It can be anything.So I'm curious how you put that expertise into a product versus, you know, obviously it, WS cannot build notion. It's, that doesn't quite work in this case, but[00:08:44] Simon Last: it's, it's a little bit differently shaped. I think, you know, a classic vertical SaaS, like the data is kind of like that. They understand their individual customer very deeply.It's kinda a narrow slice, um, notion has always been super horizontal. And our, our task has always been to sort of balance these two somewhat opposing forces of like, we're listening to our customers and what they want us to build. It's a broad slice. And then also we're thinking about like, okay, how do we decompose what they want into, uh, nice primitives that are, that are really nice to use and we'll, we'll get us like as much bang for the buck as possible.And then, you know. Maintain the whole system, make it all like, like super clean and nice to use.[00:09:22] Sarah Sachs: We still have user journeys. I mean, we still focus on like core. I actually think the failure of our team is when we focus too much on what are cools that are, what are tools that are[00:09:31] Simon Last: mm-hmm.[00:09:31] Sarah Sachs: Cool tools. I actually think that's when we make have the least velocity because you still need some sort of focus on a user journey.So like for instance, we'll all sit down every Friday and look at the P 99 of like the most token exhaustive custom agent transcript and just look at why it didn't do well and cut a bunch of tasks. Like we still focus on like, this has, like this should work. Email triaging should work. Mm-hmm. Right. And similarly, like when we're talking about before building, um, chatting, um, before we started filming about, okay, how can I do PDF export?Well that's functionality that then merits. Maybe we should build a tool that has access to a computer sandbox in a file system and the ability to write code. Right? Right. Um, but it's because we're thinking about the fact that our users to do their, to do their daily work, need to export PDFs, not because we're like, Hmm, I think a computer tool could be cool.Like, let's just see what happens. Mm-hmm. Like we, we have to focus on some user journeys, otherwise we just don't have like, enough strategy to, to prioritize.[00:10:29] swyx: I think there's a lot of like really strong opinions that you've had. Do you have like sort of like a towel of Sarah Sachs? Like, you know, like what, how do you run your team?Like I feel like you just have accumulated all these strong opinions. Obviously part, part of this is your, your token town thing.[00:10:43] Sarah Sachs: I think the TAs working with Service X is, um, you'd have to, it depends who you ask. Um, I think it depends if you're on my team or a partner Right. Or a vendor.[00:10:54] swyx: Yeah. There other people want to run their teams the way that you're Yeah.You're like bringing these things. And then also similarly, uh, Simon, when you did the custom agents demo, you had like, well, we've been using custom agents and here's the super long list of everything that we do. No humans ever read it. Right? That's what you said. I was like,[00:11:07] Sarah Sachs: yeah. So I think for, for me, um, something that I learned very quickly and became very comfortable with was that my job was not to be the ideas per person or the technical expert.My job was to make it so that everybody understood the objective, had a resource to help prioritize what they should work on, and had an avenue to prioritize what they thought was important. And I think that's true with all, all leadership, but I think especially on the AI team. Almost all of our best ideas come from prototypes, from people that have a cool idea because they saw a user problem, and it's a huge disservice if all of those ideas have to pass, like the sniff test of what me and a product partner or Simon and Ivan decided were the direction, right?Because a lot of what we're doing is leaning into capabilities, so. I think that's the first thing is like, I don't really view like the role of engineering leadership as like, uh, hierarchical, nor has it ever been, but especially now, like very willing to change direction based on, um, like proof is in the pudding.Yeah. And like, and I think we have rebuilt our harness three or four times. And when you do that, then the second rule of engineering leadership is like you need to build a team that's comfortable deleting their own code and is very low ego and is driven by what's best for the company. And, um, doesn't write design docs because they think it's their promotion packet.Right. And that's a culture that notion had long before I joined, but like our willingness to just swarm on different problems and um, redo things that we've built before because something has changed. Like, there's a lot of friction that can happen at companies when you do that. And it doesn't happen at Notion.And because it doesn't happen when new people join. Like they don't wanna be the ones that are saying, we shouldn't do this. I wrote that code. So then it's, you know, you, you create a culture that everyone thoughts and that culture comes directly, I think from Simon and Ivan though, um, because they're very open-minded.[00:12:50] swyx: Anything that you,[00:12:50] Simon Last: you'd add? I'm not a manager, like, like, like Sarah is. Um, a lot of my role is really to try to think a little bit ahead, make sure that we're, we're building on the right capabilities and then like the prototyping stuff. And yeah, it's really, really critical to always just be starting again.It's like, okay, this is new thing. What does this mean? What if we just rethought everything or wrote everything? And so I, I'm, I'm basically just doing that in a loop every six months.[00:13:16] swyx: Yeah. Do you believe in internal hackathons for this stuff?[00:13:19] Sarah Sachs: I think there's like two different versions. So one is like, we just have a, a, a solid bench of senior engineers that come and go on what we call the Simon Vortex and Productionizing what we built, right?Because when you're in the Simon Vortex, the velocity is super high. The direction changes daily, and it's meant to be like the equivalent of a SC Works lab. We don't need to do hackathons for that. We need to have senior engineers that we trust to come in and out of those projects. For instance, like management boundaries are really loose.Like you report to him, but you work for her right now. Yeah. That's something that when we hire managers, it's important they don't care about because we tend to form more structures. Yeah. Don't be too[00:13:54] swyx: territorial.[00:13:55] Sarah Sachs: We form more. It's after we ship things, not not before, just historically. Um, the second thing is we do have companywide hackathons.Actually we just had our demos day for the hackathon we had last week this morning. That's more for people that aren't directly working on the project, feeling like they have the time to pause and learn how to make themselves more productive or how they would use notion custom agents to build something.Or part of the hackathon was actually encouraging everyone across the company to build their own agentic tool loop, calling from scratch. Follow like an every blog post on how to do what I think because we want[00:14:26] swyx: just with the compound engineering one. Yeah.[00:14:28] Sarah Sachs: We want everyone to use cloud code in the company or whatever the coding agent they please and understand that fundamental.So we set aside a day and a half. We're all leadership, encourage everyone on their teams across the company to do it. So we have hackathons like that. I would say like kind of facetiously, like everything we build is a little bit like a hackathon until it graduates and puts on big boy pants and as a product ops rollout leader and has a assigned data scientists and stuff like that,[00:14:54] swyx: security review enterprise stuff,[00:14:56] Sarah Sachs: actually security reviews one of the things that we bring in first because it just slows us down way more and, um, causes a lot of tension and they build better product if they're involved early.So, um, that is probably the first person to get involved in something that's the[00:15:09] swyx: right PR approved answer.[00:15:10] Sarah Sachs: No, but it's not just PR approved. It like, um, um, it's[00:15:13] swyx: actually real. It's actually real. It's like, um, I'm just saying scar[00:15:15] Sarah Sachs: tissue.[00:15:15] swyx: Yeah,[00:15:16] Sarah Sachs: because like, you know, my background's also, I worked at Robinhood for a number of years.Yes. So like, uh, compliance and things like that, um, are a little bit more, you learn the hard way when it doesn't come naturally.[00:15:26] Simon Last: Yeah. I think the. The hackathon is really important for uplifting the general population, but like, if that's the only way you can build new things, you're kind of toast. I mean, it, it has to be like the daily processes, like, you know, building these new things.Um, and it has to be about, I think like, I think in the AI era a lot more leverage accumulates to the most curious and excited people. And so it's like we're all about just like activating that energy. You know, like if someone's protesting something on the weekend that they're excited about and it's important, that should be the main thing that we're doing.Yeah. Um, it's not a hackathon that we schedule once a quarter, it's just like, yeah. Daily process. Part of the culture.[00:16:02] Sarah Sachs: I mean, that's how we shift image generation and notion now. It was always this thing that would be kind of nice to have, but it wasn't really clear where that was necessarily aligned in product priorities.It'd be a lot of work. And we had someone on the database collections team, Jimmy, who was like. I really wanna do image generation for cover photos and inside notion. And we're like, if you wanna build it, like it's, do it please. Like we encourage you. We gave ‘em all the resources of working directly with Gemini and being able to like track the token usage and it working through endpoints.We gave them eval, support, everything, and then became a, a full project.[00:16:34] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:16:35] Sarah Sachs: That's why you can't have like ego as a, a leader. Like that's, that's how we work.[00:16:39] Alsesio: What's the size of the team today, both engineering and overall?[00:16:43] Sarah Sachs: I manage, uh, the team. That's what we'll call it. Core AI capabilities and infrastructure.That's about 50 people. But then we have per i partner teams that do packaging. So how it shows up in the corner chat versus custom agents versus meeting notes, that's another 30, 40 people. And, and then every team that has a product service at Notion that a user can interface with owns the tool that the agent interfaces with the editor team.The team that did CRDT for offline mode is the same team that handles how two agents, um, edit competing blocks. Mm-hmm. Right? It's the same problem. The team that built the underlying SQL engine is the same team that owns how the agent asks it to run a SQL query, and it does it performantly. And so from that regard, anyone working on product engineering is tasked with making them work for customers that are humans and agents because over time the majority of our traffic will be coming from agencies using in our interface, not humans.And so. Our objective is to make it so that the whole product org is building for agents.[00:17:40] Alsesio: Yeah. How has it changed internally? The activation bar is kind of lowered a lot. Like anybody can kind of create a prototype very, somewhat easily, especially if you're like an existing code base. Have you raised the bar on like what type of prototype people need to bring forward to gonna be taken?Not like seriously, but like, you know what I[00:17:58] Simon Last: mean? Yeah. I think the bar is lowered in many ways. Be like, one thing our, uh, our team built that is really cool is our, uh, our, our design team made a whole separate GitHub repo, uh, called the, the design Playground. And it's basically just to create a bunch of like, like helper components and you, uh, for, for quickly a throwing together UIs.And it's become like actually quite sophisticated. Like it has like an agent in there and like, uh, that's pretty fun. So like, we pretty much, like, they don't do mocks, they just make like, like full, full prototypes.[00:18:27] swyx: Here it is. It works.[00:18:28] Simon Last: They give you like a u rl. They're like, okay, all right. So we have to make the, like the real production version of that.Um, and then for engineers. A prototype looks like just making it a feature flag that actually works. Like that's sort of the bar.[00:18:39] Sarah Sachs: Something to understand that's really unique about notion. One of the reasons I joined we're super lucky is no one uses Notion in their job as much as people that work at Notion.[00:18:46] Simon Last: Of course.[00:18:47] Sarah Sachs: So I think there's very few companies, maybe if you worked on Chrome I guess, but like everything that we ship, we ship internally first and get a lot of really quick feedback. And also sometimes our dev instance is totally borked and you have to change a bunch of flags to get things done. And that's kind of like, but everyone, so people that do it ticketing, people that do supply chain procurement, recruiting, everyone is using the same instance of notion with like a lot of flags on for these prototypes people build.Um, and so we have this, Brian Levin, one of the designers on our team, I think evangelize this concept of demos over memos.[00:19:18] swyx: Ooh, too[00:19:20] Sarah Sachs: good. Um, which has been, uh, very good for building demos, and I think it's put a big pressure point on us to have really strong product conviction, because if anything can be demoed, you really need a strong filter of making sure that if you know, you're doing X amount of work, you're making the, you're, you're focusing on one tower, you're not just building a really flat hill.Right. That's actually where I think there has to be more conviction from our PMs, um, and our designers and, and well, the company really to have conviction of what journey we're going on.[00:19:52] Simon Last: But overall, I feel like it works pretty well. Like people, almost all the engineers have good enough taste to realize that like, this prototype doesn't actually make sense in the product, or, or it does.So it's not that common that I would see a prototype. It's like, oh, this makes no sense. Mm-hmm. It's like, you know, people are doing reasonable things and, and, and then it's just a matter of. Which things we build first and then often just, just figuring out how to turn it on and off. There's our, in the, in our like experimental chat ui, there's this, there's probably like, like a hundred check boxes in there.[00:20:22] Sarah Sachs: Kills me[00:20:23] Simon Last: the things you could turn on and off.[00:20:25] Sarah Sachs: Uh, but I think that, okay, so that is kind of true, Simon, but like being the person that manages the evals team, like there is a level of intensity that it adds to the platform team. So, you know, if we're gonna do image generation and notion, all of a sudden the way that we do attachments and the way that we, um, our LLM completion like cortex talks and expects tokens back and now it's getting images back.Like there's a lot of platform work that we do need to, like solidify a little bit. So sometimes it'll be in dev for a couple weeks before it makes it to prod just because we still have to like, make it robust, make it HIPAA compliant, ZDR compliant, figure out the right contracting with the vendor, whatever it is.And we need to eval it because we want the team. To still maintain what they build. That's the one thing is like if we have a bunch of prototypes, it can't just be like a small group of people that then maintain whatever end prototypes. So we have invested a lot of people in an eval and model behavior understanding teams that, we call it agent dev velocity.So your dev velocity building agents can be faster if we invest in that platform. And so we have a whole org dedicated to Asian, um, platform velocity so that you can build your own eval and then maintain it once you ship it. So if a new model release comes out and we, every[00:21:38] swyx: team maintains their own eval,[00:21:40] Sarah Sachs: we maintain the eval framework.Every team owns their own evals and a lot of them we've integrated to Optin, to ci, or we run them nightly and we have a team, uh, a custom agent that triggers to a team to look at the major failures. That's really critical because if we have like all these different surfaces now, a lot of it's on the same agent harness, so it's easier to maintain.It's just packaging of different agent harnesses, but new functionality of the agent. Let's say that like we wanna update like. Uh, you know, they deprecated, sonnet, um, four or whatever it is and we need to auto update. Are[00:22:11] swyx: they already? That's so, okay. Yeah. Actually wasn't that long ago.[00:22:14] Alsesio: Theywere[00:22:14] Alsesio: just 3.5.[00:22:15] Sarah Sachs: 3.537. Just got deprecated.[00:22:18] swyx: 3 7, 5 0.2 or, yeah. No,[00:22:20] Sarah Sachs: it's not. 5.2 is five point. Five point no. Yeah, five four is 40% more expensive than five two. So if they deprecated five two, you would hear they can, you would hear from me about that one. Um, but, uh, another conversation to have.[00:22:35] swyx: I have a cheeky evals question for you.Have you noticed any secret degradation from any of the major model providers?[00:22:40] Sarah Sachs: Secret degradation,[00:22:42] swyx: like. During the War Bay, when it's high traffic, it suddenly gets dumber.[00:22:47] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. I mean, not just between the, I mean, we definitely notice flakiness, we've definitely noticed, particularly for some providers, that things are slower during working hours and[00:22:57] swyx: there's a latency argument.Yes. Not a quality argument.[00:22:59] Sarah Sachs: No. I think the quality difference that's interesting is, um, even though companies that say they're selling the same, a, it's really into like quanti quantization, but like companies that say they're selling the same model through different vendors, whether it be through first party or Bedrock, Azure, et cetera.We do see different qualities sometimes, and that's not necessarily what's advertised.[00:23:21] swyx: Yeah. Kidney went to the point of like, if we, they shipped like this, like eval across all the providers and it was like very obvious we were secret equalizing and it was very,[00:23:28] Sarah Sachs: yeah. But[00:23:29] swyx: that's very embarrassing.[00:23:30] Sarah Sachs: You know, um, we hire Subprocess to figure that out for us.So we just wanna understand where it's regressing or where it's optimized. And sometimes we're okay with regressions that optimize latency if they're the appropriate regressions. Our job is to make sure we have the evals to understand the changes that are important to us. And even like when we're partnering with labs on pre-releasees of models, they'll send us multiple snapshots.And this is less about quantization, but more just regressions. Like they have shipped models that were not the snapshots that we wanted, and they have changed the snapshots that they shipped based on the feedback that we give. Because our feedback tends to be more enterprise work focused and not coding agent focused.And definitely those can be bummers, like, you know, uh, we know that this wasn't the version you wanted, but we'll help you make it work. I mean, we always make it work, but that definitely happens.[00:24:16] Alsesio: Yeah. Do you have, um, failing evals that you're just hoping, oh, that will have success eventually when a good model comes out?[00:24:23] Sarah Sachs: Uh, I mean, yeah. So I think. I mean, I could talk about this for 60 minutes, so I will limit myself. I think it's a real issue when people say evals and it's just like, that's quality, that's like unit, I mean, it's like saying testing. It's not just unit tests, right? So. We have the equivalent of unit test.Regression test. Those live in ci, those have to pass a certain percent, you know, within some stochastic error rate. Then we have, as you're building a product, evals of these aren't passing right now, and this is launch quality. So we have a report card and we need to, on these categories, you know, be it 80 or 90% of all of these user journeys to launch, and then what we have what we call frontier or headroom evals, where we actively wanna be at 30% pass rate.And that's actually been a effort that we took in partnership with philanthropic and OpenAI in the past maybe two or three months, because we actually hit a point where our evals were saturated and we weren't able to really give insightful feedback other than it wasn't worse. And not only is that not helpful for our partners, it's not helpful for us to understand where the stream is going.You know, going back to that analogy. And so we spent a lot of time thinking about. What notions last exam looks like, right? Mm-hmm. Not just humanities, last exam. Ooh, notions last exam. Mm-hmm. And, um, there's a lot of, you know, dreams about what that would look like. I know we've talked a lot about benchmarking, um, swix, but, uh, yeah.Notions last exam is a big thing inside the company and we have people, full-time staff to it exclusively. Mm. We have a data scientist, a model behavior engineer, and an full-time, um, evals engineer just dedicated to the evals that we pass 30% of the time.[00:25:56] swyx: What you're hiring for[00:25:57] Sarah Sachs: MBEs? I am hiring[00:25:58] swyx: What is an MBEA[00:25:59] Sarah Sachs: model?Behavior Engineer Model. Behavior engineers started with a title data specialist before I joined when they were working with Simon on like, uh, Google Sheets and like Simon just needed someone to look through Google Sheets and say, yes, no, this looks bad. This looks good. Right? And so we hired people with kind of diverse linguistics background.We had like a linguistics PhD dropout. Mm-hmm. And a Stanford ate new grad. And they're amazing. And they formed a new function basically. And over time we've built a whole team, um, with a manager who's now kind of reinventing what that role is with coding agents. So they used to be kind of manually inspecting code.Now they're primarily building agents that can write evals for themselves or LLM judges. There's a really funny day I can send you the picture where Simon, about a year and a half ago, was teaching them how to use GitHub. Um, and they're on the whiteboard and it was like, okay, I think it would be so much faster if our data specialists learned how to use GitHub and like learned how to commit these things in Dakota.And, and that was then and now I think, you know, coding has been a lot more accessible. Um, but moving forward it's this mix of like data scientist PM and prompt engineer because there's craft in understanding like even like what models can and can't do things. How do we define like that headroom? How do we define like what a good journey is?Um, is this model better or not? Why is this failing? There's some qualitative work, but then there's also like a lot of instinct and taste to it, and that's not necessarily software engineering. And so we have like very firm conviction and we have had for a number of years now that that is its own career path and we have always welcomed the misfits, so to speak.So we really firmly believe that you don't need an engineering background to be the best at this job. And that's what's quite unique about this particular role.[00:27:37] Simon Last: Yeah, this is something that I've been pretty excited about recently is we made an effort basically to treat the eval system as like an agent harness.So if you think about it, like, you know, you should be able to have an agent end-to-end, download a dataset, run an eval, iterate on a failure, debug, and, and then implement a fix. And ultimately you should be able to, you know, drive the full time process with a human sort of observing the, you know, the outer uh, system.So yeah, we went, went pretty hard on that. And that's, that's worked extremely well so far. It's like basically just to turn it into a coding agent, uh, uh, problem.[00:28:11] swyx: Your coding agent or just whatever[00:28:13] Simon Last: harness No coding agent. Yeah, code, cloud code. It should be totally general. Yeah. I think if it would be a mistake to like, like fix it on any, any particular coding agent.At the end of the day, it's just like CLI tools.[00:28:21] Sarah Sachs: It's like the same way that you would've a coding agent write the unit test. You should have a coding agent write the eval.[00:28:26] swyx: Yeah.[00:28:26] Sarah Sachs: But there's a lot of supervision in that still. We just don't believe that supervision has to come from software engineers because a lot of it is like, um, kind of you XREE and whatever, and these are the people that also triage failures and tell us where we should be investing next.[00:28:40] swyx: Yeah. I'm gonna go ahead and ask a spicy question. Is there a data, there are no software engineers at Notion.[00:28:46] Simon Last: Um,[00:28:46] Sarah Sachs: what does it mean to be a software engineer?[00:28:47] swyx: Exactly.[00:28:48] Simon Last: I mean, I think the way things are going is like we're on some continuum where. If, if you look back three years ago, humans were typing all the code and then we had auto complete, you're typing list of the code.Then we had sort of like filling agents, filling lines, and now we're getting into like agents doing longer range tasks where you can debug and implement a fix and then verify it works and you know, get your, get your PR even like, like Merion deployed. I think we're sort of just moving up the abstraction ladder and then the human role becomes more about observing and maintaining the outer system.There's a string of agents flowing through, like me prs what's going off the rails. Like what do I need to approve? Is there like a learning or memory mechanism that that works? So it's kind of a hard engineering problem. There's a, you know, there's, there's a lot to do there. I think we're just sort of moving up stack[00:29:34] Sarah Sachs: the same transition machine learning engineers have made, right?Like I haven't looked at a PR curve in a while.[00:29:39] swyx: Yeah. You used to do this stuff and now, um, auto research can do it,[00:29:42] Sarah Sachs: right? Like I think it depends on what you define as a software engineer.[00:29:46] swyx: Yes. It's, that's changing for sure.[00:29:49] Sarah Sachs: I think every software engineer in notion this summer went through like this, um, sheer, um, one of our engineering leads of the company called it, like every software engineer is going through the, the, uh, identity crisis that every manager goes through, where all of a sudden they realize their ability to write code is less important than their ability to delegate in context switch.And I think that is a transition out of being a software engineer. But[00:30:12] Simon Last: yeah. Yeah, there's a critical difference to being a manager, which is that like, it is actually very deeply technical. The problem, you know, humans are very like, like, like fuzzy and you can't like treat a team of humans like a, like a rigorous system where like, you know, prs like, like flow through and can be in like a block status and then what happens when they're blocked, right.With a set of agents, you actually can do that. And, and, and I think it's actually, there's a lot of interesting technical rigor that that goes into that it's like it's a technical design problem. Ultimately.[00:30:42] Alsesio: What is the design of the software factory that you're building?[00:30:46] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, I think we're. Trying a lot of different things.I mean, ultimately you want to design a system that requires as little human intervention as possible, but like still maintaining the in variance that, that you care about. So yeah, we're exploring a lot different ideas there. I mean, I think I could talk about a few things I think are important there.Like, one thing I think is really important is, um, having some kind of like specification layer you can just commit marked on files. Mm-hmm. That works pretty well, but[00:31:15] swyx: it's nice to be notion man. I'm just saying like the spec, like Yeah. The natural home for specs is notion.[00:31:21] Simon Last: Yeah. Right. It can be a database of pages.Yeah. I mean, it needs to be something that is, you know, human readable and I viewable and I think that's pretty key. Another really key component is like the, the self verification loop. Yes. You need really, really good testing layers, basically. And that's a really deep, uh, uh, problem. But by getting that right, you know, and then, and then it's kinda like the workflow of like.What happens when there's a bug? How does it flow into the system? Like, is it like a subagent working on it? How does it make a PR and how does that get reviewed? And me, and then, you know, so there's like the, the flow or process.[00:31:56] swyx: Yeah. Cool. Uh, you know, one thing we did work out before you guys came in was this demo or this[00:32:01] Simon Last: agents[00:32:02] swyx: agent demo.Uh,[00:32:03] Simon Last: so every,[00:32:04] Alsesio: every time we do an episode, we try the product. Right. I don't think there's ever been an episode that I haven't tried. Yeah. Um,[00:32:11] swyx: and we, we try, try is a, a big word. Like since day one lane space has been on Notion, but this is the, this is the net new thing. Yes.[00:32:18] Alsesio: So this is for Nel Labs, which is the space we're in.So next week we're opening applications for tenants. So there's a web form, let me, we got this form done here. Uh, so, uh, before. Uh, the workflow would be I get an email, then I look at the person. It was like, should I spend time talking to this person? Then I respond, they respond back. So I build this. So the name it came up for on its own.Can you maybe h how do, how does it come up with its own name?[00:32:43] Simon Last: Yeah, that's a pretty app name. It's, it, it is just a random, it's a random, a name generator.[00:32:47] Alsesio: Oh, that's funny. It just came,[00:32:49] Simon Last: the fact that it picked that is, is kind of hilarious. I'm pretty sure it's just determined,[00:32:54] Sarah Sachs: resilient collector. I, I think I've never looked at the code for that.I've never second guessed it. I think it's kind of like a madlib situation.[00:33:00] Simon Last: Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. It's, it's totally a, a deterministic. Oh, I thought it was great. Yes. Although, although when the, if you use the AI to set itself up, it can update its own name, so. Okay. Um,[00:33:11] Sarah Sachs: how did you create it? It, did you just do[00:33:12] Alsesio: classroom?I,[00:33:13] Sarah Sachs: okay.[00:33:13] Alsesio: I did, yeah. I'll say just check my inbox for applications for a coworking space. Keep a people, so it created the database for me. Which I have here. And I guess database is like an notion table because everything is notion. Um, and then whenever um, an email comes in, like here, it just creates a new role for the person.Mm-hmm. And then it uses web search to enrich the mm-hmm. The profile. So it kind of like searches the web and it's like, this is who this person is, this is when they say they wanna move in and kind of updates everything else. This is, I mean, it's not a GI, but to me, I don't wanna do this work. So it feels like, I mean, it took me maybe like 15 minutes to set up the whole thing.Um, and I really like that most of the information should live here. You know, it is not like some other tool asking me[00:34:01] Sarah Sachs: Yeah.[00:34:01] Alsesio: To like, bring my stuff there. It's like I would've probably already created an ocean thing.[00:34:06] Sarah Sachs: Mm-hmm.[00:34:06] Alsesio: So[00:34:07] Sarah Sachs: most of our biggest use cases and gains are from. That extra layer of human involvement in the process to make it so right.And so like one of our biggest use cases is bug triaging. So if someone posts something in Slack, can you just have a custom agent that lives there that has its own routing constitution of what team this belongs to, creates a task in your task database and then posts in that Slack channel, right? Like that's like one of the first things that we built internally, I think.And it's completely changed the way that notion functions as a company. Nothing falls through, well, most things don't fall through the crack. We don't know what we don't know. But it's not replacing people, it's replacing processes.[00:34:44] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:34:44] Sarah Sachs: Right.[00:34:45] Alsesio: And I'm curious how you think about composability of these things.So the other one I was working on is like a. These filler. So whenever somebody signs up as a tenant, kind of he'll sell the lease for them. There should probably some agent that is like office manager agent mm-hmm. That can handle the request, make the lease, and then, uh, give them a ADA access to the office and all of that.How do you think about that feature?[00:35:08] Simon Last: Yeah, so I mean, there's, there's two ways you can compose. One way is by using like the data primitives. So you can, you know, you, you could give, you have one agent, uh, be writing to the database and there's another agent that's walked in the database. So that's, that's one way that they, they can coordinate that's like a little bit more decoupled and mm-hmm.Works really well. Or you, you can couple them. So I, I think it's actually not released yet. Releasing it like next week is, uh, in the settings for an agent, you can give access to invoke any other agent.[00:35:34] swyx: Hmm.[00:35:34] Simon Last: So you can have them just. Just, uh, uh, talk directly. So[00:35:37] swyx: you, was there a limit on like, number of recursions or just,[00:35:40] Simon Last: um, probably,[00:35:42] swyx: you know what I mean?Like, you can just get an infinite loop that way there's[00:35:45] Simon Last: some kind of Yeah,[00:35:46] Sarah Sachs: I think it's, there is actually a number somewhere.[00:35:49] swyx: I believe I'm just, you know, like, you're, you're, someone's gonna screw up. You[00:35:51] Simon Last: should you try to see[00:35:53] swyx: Yeah. I mean, everything's gonna be paperclips.[00:35:55] Simon Last: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But, uh, but, but that's really useful.Yeah. So we, you know, like I just, I, I helped, uh, someone internally the other day, they had, they had built like over 30 custom agents for, uh, for our go to market team doing all kinds of different things. You know, for example, like researching, you know, like, like filling information about, about a customer or like, like triaging customer feedback or like, uh, something like that.Literally over 30 of them. And, and then he, and then he even made like a database of all the agents and then he is like, okay, and, and now I'm getting 70, over 70 notifications per day with just the agents are blocked on various things. Uh, and then I was like, oh, okay, cool. You know, the obvious thing to do there is to make a manager agent,[00:36:32] Sarah Sachs: right?[00:36:33] Simon Last: That's gonna sort of blocks be another abstraction layer in between your, your, uh, uh, 30 agents. Uh, so yeah, we, we send out with like a manager agent and then has access to invoke all the other agents and it's sort of like, like watching and observing them and then it sort of, it just creates a layer of abstraction.So instead of 70 notifications per day, it's like, like five. And then, and then the manager agent can help like, uh, debug and fix any problems with the,[00:36:54] swyx: does this is a concept of like an inbox or something like piece, you're basically saying that they can message each other?[00:37:00] Simon Last: Yeah.[00:37:01] Sarah Sachs: Well[00:37:01] swyx: they use the system of record, which, which is[00:37:02] Sarah Sachs: notion, so we[00:37:03] Simon Last: actually, yeah, we didn't make any special concepts at all.[00:37:06] swyx: They're interested to the motion notifications that I would've got,[00:37:09] Sarah Sachs: they can just like write a task to a database that the other agent's task to listening to, or they can actually call a web book to the agent, like they can just add the agent. Okay.[00:37:17] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, this is something that, that we're still working on.I, I think we, you know, like, like generally, generally the way we do these things is, you know, you first make it possible, maybe like a sort of janky way. So I, I, I think the way I set ‘em up is like, you know, we created like a new database that was sort of like issues mm-hmm. That the custom agents were, were experiencing, and then gave them all access to file an issue and then the manager has access to, to read the issues.Um, and that works pretty well, essentially like, like give it its own like internal issue tracker just for the agents. And then, you know, if that becomes a, a concept that seems useful, generally maybe we will think of how to package it in. But I mean, generally we try to just keep it to composing the primitive if we can.You know, another example of this is we have no built-in memory concept. Memory is, is just pages and databases. And so if you wanna give a memory, just give it a page and give it. Edit access to that page and the[00:38:03] swyx: human can edit it. Agent can edit[00:38:04] Simon Last: it. Yeah. And so that works, that pattern works extremely well on it.And you know, depending this case, you can have it be just a page or it could be an entire database with, you know, or, you know, I can have sub pages is is pretty on what you can do with that.[00:38:15] Alsesio: So when I was setting this up, uh, I connected my inbox and it was like, do you wanna use Gmail or Notion Mail? And I'm like, I don't wanna use Eater, I just want you to do it.I'm curious how you think about, you know, notion, mail, notion, calendar, all of these kind of ui ux interfaces, full stack[00:38:29] Simon Last: notion.[00:38:30] Alsesio: Yeah. When like at the same time you have the agents abstracting them away from you in a way, you know, how do you spend like the product calories so to speak?[00:38:37] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty important that you don't have to use, not your mail to connect to the mail capability.So we can just connect to Gmail or, or whatever you want, uh, to use. And we're thinking of the mail service as being really great to the extent that it's really agent built, right? So maybe the mail app is just sort of a prepackaged agent that helps you automate your, your inbox.[00:39:00] Alsesio: Yeah, the auto labeling is great.Think[00:39:03] Sarah Sachs: the, when we, um, integrate with Gmail for instance, we have a series of tools available that are available via MCP or API to Gmail. When we integrate with Notion Mail, we have the Notion Mail engineering team to build us the, um, exact right tools that optimize latency, optimize performance and quality.They own that quality. Um, there's product leads there. They're directly thinking about the user problems that happen in mail. So it tends to be when we build integrations and connections, we build natively first. Um, and then think about, um, extending them generally just because it's also easier. Mm-hmm. Um, um, to build natively first.Um, so that tends to be how we phase things out.[00:39:43] swyx: Talking about integrations, you prompted me, so I gotta ask. M-C-P-C-L-I. What's going on? What's the[00:39:48] Simon Last: Yeah. Opinion. I think, I mean, I'm, I'm definitely bullish and excited about cli. I think there's a few really cool things about cli. So one really cool thing is like, um, is that it's in the terminal environment, so it gets a bunch of extra power.So it, you know, for example, it can like, like paginating and cursor through like long outputs. Um, and it has a progressive disclosure inherently. Uh, so, you know, you don't see all the tools at once. It's just, you see the CLI wrapper and you can like use the, the help commands and, and, and read files. And then I think the most important thing that's, that's super cool is that there, it's also inherently a, a bootstrapped.So if there's an issue, uh, the agent can debug and fix itself within the same environment that it uses the tool.[00:40:30] swyx: Mm.[00:40:30] Simon Last: Right. Like, you know, I think I saw a tweet this morning. Someone said, you know, my agent didn't have a browser, so I asked it to make all a browser tool and within a hundred lines of code, it gave itself a little browser, like, like wrapping the, the, the chromium API, um.That's pretty incredible. And then if there was a bug, it would just immediately try to fix it. Mm-hmm. Right. On the other hand, if you use an, you know, if you use like of, of the Chrome dev tools, MCP, I've had this issue where like, like sometimes the transport gets like messed up. If it gets messed up, the agent has no way to fix itself.It, it no longer has a browser, it's, it's not broken. Right. I think that's, that's pretty fundamental, but I would say like a lot of the, the bad things about it can be fixed. Uh, so I think like, as a progressive disclosure, that can be fixed with, with right harness. Like, it, it obviously doesn't make sense to show it all the tools all the time.That's not really inherent to the MCP protocol. It's just like how you wrap it and use it.[00:41:16] swyx: There's many poorly built MCPs because we didn't know.[00:41:19] Simon Last: Yeah, yeah. I mean it was just early, like, like the obvious thing is, uh, you know, to start with is, is to just show it all the tools and it's like, okay, now we have a hundred tools.Yeah. And like the tool calling actually works. So let's of[00:41:28] swyx: your success[00:41:29] Simon Last: give it a way to like, like filter to source the tools. So yeah, I would say like broadly speaking, I'm really bullish on cli. I'm still bullish on CPS and in a certain environment. I think in, in particular, CP is really great for when you want sort of like a narrow, lightweight agent.I think there's, there's definitely a lot of use cases where, where you don't want like a full coding agent with a compute run time. And also you want it to be like more tightly permissioned. MCP inherently has a really strong permission model, like all you can do is call the tools. A CLI is a little bit murkier.It's like, can I access the, if PI token are you, like, properly sort of like re-encrypt the token so it can't like exfiltrate it, it introduce a lot of like, like new issues, which are. Real and hard to solve. And MCP is just like the dumb simple thing that works and it that it's pretty good.[00:42:12] Sarah Sachs: I'll add two more perspectives, not from it working well for Notion, but how notion like commits to both platforms.Notion is dedicated to being the best system of record for where people do their enterprise work. So we will always support our MCP and so far as other people are using cps, right? So regardless of our perspective, we've put a lot of effort into our MCP and we have a fantastic team that we're building, um, to do more there.And the second thing I'll say, I think, um, we all think a lot, but lately I've been thinking a lot about making sure there's a value alignment and pricing, um, with capability.[00:42:43] swyx: Literally our next question[00:42:44] Sarah Sachs: and. Needing language to execute deterministic tasks feels wasteful and requiring on a language model to interface with third party providers seems wasteful for tasks that don't require it.And particularly because our custom agents are using usage-based pricing. We think of pricing as like the barrier of entry for use of our product, and we're quite committed to making sure that it's not wasteful. Um, not just because it's a bad deal for our customers, but it's also bad business. We wanna have as many buyers, like there's a, there's an elasticity of demand and so if we can have our agents properly execute code that calls on CLI deterministically, it's a one-time cost, right?Versus constantly having a language model integrate with an MCP over and over and over and paying those like repeated token fees and it's happening outside the cash window, then you're paying for it over and over and over and it's just kind of unnecessary and less deterministic when it doesn't have to be.[00:43:36] Alessio: Yeah, the open-endedness I think is like, the main thing is like, well, if I go write code to just call an API, I would never use an MCP. But then you need an NCP sometimes when you know what to call, but you don't want it to restart versus like, I think the it built a browser from scratch is like, it's great when you're doing it on your own, but like if your customers were having your AI write a browser from scratch every time and you had to pay the token cost of that, yeah.You'd be like, no, no. The Chrome dev tools CP is actually pretty great. Just use that. I'm curious, how do you make that decision? Like should it be. Just straight API call very narrow. Should it be an MCP? Should it be super open-ended?[00:44:10] Sarah Sachs: Do you mean for when we ship notion capabilities or when we add capabilities to[00:44:13] Alessio: notion[00:44:14] Sarah Sachs: AI or,[00:44:14] Alessio: I mean, you might have a capability that the only way to do is an open-ended agent, like an agent with a coding sandbox.[00:44:21] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. In Notion ai they're not explicit, not We also ship an MCP.[00:44:24] Alsesio: Yeah. Yeah. In B,[00:44:25] Sarah Sachs: yeah.[00:44:26] Alsesio: Internally. Okay. Like is there ever a discussion of like, we're not gonna ship it because we're not able to tie it down? Or are you happy to just like,[00:44:33] Sarah Sachs: um, no. I mean, there are a lot of things where we choose not to use MCP because we wanna add more high touch to quality.I think search an agent to find is like the largest instance of that, where we have. Um, slack and linear and Jira search and notion that is not using necessarily the search MCP functionality that is provided by those companies. And that's because it's quite critical we think, to how our agent trajectories work is for us to have a little bit more control on the functionality of the search journey.And so it usually comes from quality and there's a long tail of things and that's why we built an MCP client or an MCP server, excuse me, so that people can connect whatever they want. There's that long tail, right. But we, for search particularly, I would say that's like the primary entry point, but there are other connections as well that it's a little bit of secret sauce a

Stop Losing Leads: How to Fix Your B2B Startup Positioning Architecture Most B2B tech startups hit a ceiling when founder-led sales and marketing stalls growth. When they assess why their pipeline has stalled, they almost always assume they have a demand generation problem. However, a deeper analysis usually uncovers that the actual pain point is a fractured positioning and go-to-market (GTM) architecture. So, how can B2B tech startups diagnose and fix their positioning architecture to ignite more robust, predictable , and sustainable growth? That's why we're talking to return guest Adrijana Daragon (Founder, GTM Advantage), who shares her expertise and insights on how to fix your B2B startup positioning architecture. During our conversation, Adrijana shared some of the common pitfalls B2B that cause tech startups to fail, specifically focusing on the disconnect between product features and market needs. She stressed the critical importance of early market validation and understanding customer needs instead of obsessing over the technology and features. Adrijana also explained why founders must narrow their focus to specific ideal customer segments to ensure their messaging truly resonates with potential buyers. She concluded by highlighting the value of continuous iteration and learning from pilot projects to refine GTM strategies and attain scalable, predictable growth. https://youtu.be/mO99oSKyYGE Topics discussed in episode: [02:56] Why startups often mistake a positioning and go-to-market architecture problem for a lack of market demand [04:30] The reason targeting the right ICP fails if the customer lacks a sense of urgency or purchasing intent [05:17] How to identify when a founder becomes a growth bottleneck during the transition to a delegated team model [10:49] The danger of “fake validation” from startup ecosystems versus getting reality checks from actual buyers [21:30] Why increasing marketing budgets is ineffective if your messaging fails to connect with the customer’s problem [30:51] How narrowing your focus to a single industry enables faster iteration and more scalable traction [39:36] Using a growth mindset to define success criteria, turning pilot projects into long-term client relationships Companies and links mentioned: Adrijana Daragon on LinkedIn  GTM Advantage Transcript Adrijana Daragon, Christian Klepp Adrijana Daragon  00:00 Founders think about the go to market as a post, post activity, versus doing it early on, so meaning they are really of over focus on technology alone and thinking when the talk technology will be the product will be launched, that’s when the customers will come, especially like if the founders are engineers or coming from the medical background, this is the domain. This is where the this is the comfort zone. So they are really focusing on the technology. And that’s true, this is like bigger competitive advantage, but the commercial part, getting really early on understanding who are the market, what’s the feedback, even integrating that into a building technology so important. Christian Klepp  00:43 Most B2B tech startups hit a wall when founder-led marketing stalls growth. When they analyze where they went wrong, they almost always assume they have a demand problem. But when you look deeper, you realize that their real pain point lies in their positioning and go to market architecture. So how can B2B startups fix their positioning architecture problem to ignite more robust and sustainable growth? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking to Adrijana Daragon, who will be answering this question. She’s the founder at Go To Market (GTM) Advantage, who helps turn go to market into a predictable pipeline and revenue for B2B tech startups. Let’s dive right in. Okay, and off we go. I’m gonna say, Adrijana Daragon, welcome to the show. Adrijana Daragon  01:30 Hello. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Christian. Christian Klepp  01:33 Great to be connected again, Adrijana. And I’m gonna say thank you to Anna Wondany from Hey CMO, for connecting us. And I’m really looking forward to this conversation, because we’re going to talk about something that, on the surface doesn’t seem like it’s extremely important, but we’re going to start unpacking that, and then we’ll realize like, oh, wow, we really should be paying attention to this. Take some notes, learn and be inspired no? Adrijana Daragon  01:58 Yes, true. I’m really excited about it, and I can see really quite some founders can benefit from this knowledge. Christian Klepp  02:05 Absolutely, absolutely. So if you don’t mind, we’ll, we’ll just jump straight in, and I’ll ask you the first question. So you’re, I’m going to say, on a mission to help B2B Tech scale ups, grow and increase their inbound leads. But for this conversation, I’d like to focus on this following topic, and then we can unpack it from there. So the topic is how B2B startups can fix their positioning architecture problem. Now that sounds like a really fancy marketing term, but we’re going to unpack it now and then everybody will realize, like, how crucial this actually is. So I’m going to kick off this conversation with the following question. So Adrijana, in our previous conversation, you mentioned that most B2B startups think they have a demand problem, but in reality, when you dig deeper, what they actually have is a positioning and go to market architecture problem. So can you please explain that? Adrijana Daragon  02:56 Sure. So it’s highly depends on the stage the startup scale up is it’s different challenges. There are different challenges at the beginning, when there is early stage. Startup is about just doing different tests, trying the founders, typically the one that driving the sales and marketing efforts and connecting, getting the early feedback, validating it afterwards, when it starts to be already, you gain traction. You know, you had a successful especially in deep tech. It’s a lot about the pilot, securing both successful pilots, moving from the pilots to for to the ongoing client relationships. That’s when the it’s becomes much more about challenge of not only trying, testing different activities, but really seeing how what really makes sense, because there are a lot of challenges when you have a lot of activities, but we don’t bring the results, we don’t bring the revenue You want, and that’s especially when I work with startups. When we have both conversations, we have the initial demand, interest, especially interest. We have those conversations with potential clients, however they don’t convert. And that’s really where we are, kind of talking about the not originally positioning itself a problem, but it’s also about the go to market. And one big mistake clients do is when they focus on the target ICP (Ideal Customer Profile), but the target ICP, it doesn’t have a sense of urgency to buy, so the purchasing intent is not there. So that’s why, like a lot of times, you have a lot of internet conversations, everybody says, so your solution looks really interesting. However, that doesn’t result in result in the sales? Christian Klepp  04:55 Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, you brought some really great points there, and I add two follow up questions for you. So I think the first one, especially when you’re talking about startups, and I can’t help but ask you this question, but do you sometimes feel when you’re interacting with your clients, especially when you’re trying to address these problems with them? Do you sometimes feel that it’s the founder that is the bottleneck? Adrijana Daragon  05:17 It’s true as well. Like you know, as a startup grows as well, the founder learns a lot, and it’s also, it’s a big growth journey as well, big growth journey. And as well activities we do. The mindset also shifts with every stage. So there are like, different stages of a company. When it’s founding team, it’s small team. When you bring the first, highest, first outsource, outsourcing that depends already, where you need to communicate clearly that to delegate what you want actually to achieve. So these people know your vision and goals. That’s really when it starts to be the first bottleneck of really making when you are bringing more people, how the it can they can work most effectively as well as a team? Christian Klepp  06:08 Yeah, yeah, no, no, absolutely, absolutely. So that’s, that’s the first question. The second question is, and I know you and I both know what positioning is, but I feel for people outside the marketing discipline, they throw that, that statement or that word around very freely. So let’s just clear the air there a little bit, and just please break it down for us. What does positioning mean, and how is it relevant to inbound and revenue and other things like that? Adrijana Daragon  06:39 I think it’s there are multiple aspects, but this positioning is more. What do you want to stand in there, in in the minds of and hearts of other people? How do you want to be for them? Be remembered so it’s not only remembered so that people can say and articulate also well, what you do for yourself, uh, yourself. And then obviously, ideally, that also, it’s repeatable, that also the clients and the rest can say, and that’s not that easy sounds, but it’s not only one statement, positioning statement, and when it’s all done, positioning is a lot about work together, the about the ICP and for the ICP, so ideal client profile? And that’s a lot about understanding, especially if it is multiple industries, multiple especially on enterprises or like, there are big buying cycles, who are the right people. So it’s a buying center. There are a lot of people who are users, who are economical buyers, decision makers. So this is a lot about work on this ICP and value propositions for each of them will be different. So the positioning work also includes this value proposition, especially linking what’s the value, what’s the value, what are the problems they have, and how you help your solution helps that to work. So it’s like customer centric communication about the solution, which is very hard sometimes for the tech startups, who are typically over investing in the technology, and they talk about the features, but not so much in the customer language, about really deeply understanding customer understanding who they are and what they do, what are the problems and how it solves? And the big missing piece, and which is what I have in my methodology, where I work, and this is really important, crucial part not to miss, is the part of when, not only who, but then, and that when part is about urgency, sense of urgency. Do does the target, ICP, know that we have this problem? We are aware about it. Do they actively seek solutions? And you are at this stage, at this stage, so because the right person, but the wrong moment, zero outcome. So it’s, the sale will not be done. So it’s, this is especially important. While a lot of pilot conversations, like after discovery calls stall is because of this that they have this interest. However, the urgency is not there, and it’s a lot in especially with good AI solutions, or, like really talking about long term innovations, because it requires a lot of change of the behavior system processes, how they work currently, with how we do business. Currently, be aware. But this is this problem. But are we really actively looking to change solution? And currently that’s very important part of as well work of his overall positioning, because that will mean otherwise, you just have a lot of conversations, conversations, and really very small amount of them, lead. Leading to the really close, close deals. Christian Klepp  10:03 Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. I like how you said, like, right person, wrong time, that almost sounds like dating situation. It’s also transferable to the world of like, customers, right? And that’s absolutely true, because if you identify, if you identify the right target audience, but this is not the right time, right? Because it’s a different because you always have to look at the different stages of their journey, right? Adrijana Daragon  10:25 Yes. Christian Klepp  10:25 And unfortunately, in B2B, whether it’s tech or otherwise, the buyer, the buyer cycles tend to be a bit longer, right? Adrijana Daragon  10:35 Yes. Christian Klepp  10:36 Absolutely so, based on what you said, and I know you brought up already one of them, but like, based on what you’ve said in the past couple of minutes, what are some of the key pitfalls you would say B2B marketing teams need to avoid, and what should they do instead? Adrijana Daragon  10:49 Yes, so for me, really the I see that founders think about a go to market as a post, post activity versus doing it early on. So meaning they are really of over focus on technology alone and thinking when the talk technology will be, the product will be launched, that’s when the customers will come. That’s the one that typically, especially like if the founders are engineers or coming from the medical background. This is the domain. This is where they this is the comfort zone. So they are really focusing on the technology. And that’s true, this is like bigger competitive advantage, but the commercial part, getting really early on understanding who are the market, what’s the feedback, even integrating that into a building technology so important. So that’s the common pitfall about starting it early. It needs to be still very lean in beginning, it’s more lean. And one of the key things of lean activities is about thinking who are the customers, exactly who are the right customers, and then having that early validation. So it follows also to the second point. So one was early. Think about go to market earlier than when you typically do. Second is real versus fake interest. So what I mean, a lot of founders live in them more, sometimes in the bubble of their ecosystem, meaning like they are get the early positive feedback from incubators, accelerators they are in, as well the different support groups, plus also our startup founder saying, Oh, your solution. Can you give me feedback on your solution? Yes, it sounds interesting. Your technology is really interesting. Yeah, it should be interesting, and that’s what we take it as a given feedback. Okay, I validated. I got this initial interest. However, this is not the target audience who would actually buy so these are the kind of I call it a fake validation. It’s good to get also support system. To get this, because it’s really long journey entrepreneurship and having building the startup, you need this support system. However, you also need to have reality checks. And the reality checks are really thinking and going in the market and having conversations, if you are having a solution, let’s say in medtech, selling to the hospitals, so then going and actually talking to you. How does it sound? That feed? Obviously, it’s harder to get into that contact. There are some ways where we could do, do it, but this is really very critical moment when you get the actual feedback from the person who would will in, will be so valuable in creating your product. And then also, what are the different criteria they look at, what is really the what are the propositions we are looking at and how we make the decisions, and that’s very important as well, to make sure that you get that early on. So these are the few pitfalls. I would say. Christian Klepp  14:14 These are the few pitfalls, but they are super important. Adrijana Daragon  14:17 Oh yes. Christian Klepp  14:18 They’re so important that I have to ask you some follow up questions. Okay, so based on the first one right when you’re talking about who are the right customers and getting that early validation, how, in your experience, is there a right way to get early validation? Adrijana Daragon  14:35 It’s there is not only one way, there are many, many ways, but it’s just very important. Is also the mindset of it’s active listening. It’s more about you have your own idea and you’re in love with your product. That’s why you have a startup. It’s also very important to be open for the feedback, and good and bad feedback is also very important. So there are some a typically like also for the research, where you don’t guide the questions yes or no. You want to dig deeper. That’s also very important. It’s more, I think it’s the mindset, where you go you really eager to learn. You go there to eager to learn and to really listen and to understand. That’s the journey, when you want to understand your potential client, how you can really make the life easier. That’s the way. It’s a little beyond going journey where it’s really almost saying that the product market fit happens also a very similar in similar time. Then you can describe and talk the problem of the customer better than the customer himself or herself. So that’s the it’s a journey so you will but this is like really knowing that, that it’s important to hear from them, versus have only the inside view, which is and really seeking those conversations and have this open mind mindset is super important. Christian Klepp  15:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that’s absolutely right. I totally agree with that. Okay, so that was the first follow up question. The second follow up question, which I think is so important, based on what you said, this reality check, right? Because, you know, we, I have some experience with this as well, like, you know, it’s especially talking with a founder, and they’re in their team, and I always, I always call it like the internal high five, right? The internal High Five means, okay, we built a great product. Boom, fantastic. And then, and then internally, it’s like, I believe the market needs this because of the and I don’t agree that they need this because of what, whatever the reason. And everybody internally agrees. But you and I both know that, as marketers, it doesn’t help them and it doesn’t help us to just agree with a lot of these I’m calling them internal hypotheses. So from your experience, how do you get these startups, the founders and their teams to accept that while you can have this hypothesis, you also need to have a proper reality check to validate everything that you’re saying internally. Because sometimes as you, as you well, know not all founders, but many founders. Is it the mindset internally is, my baby is the most beautiful baby in the world. Don’t you dare insult my baby. All right. So how do you get them out of this mindset? How do you get them to be like, okay, you know, in order to grow, in order to scale, you have to be open to validation for the market. How do you how do you get them? How do you get them to that point? Adrijana Daragon  17:35 Sure, so I think here it’s super important is to have different people in your support system, and very in a closed network, and part of the founders have the personal network, especially when they or we have advisory boards, part of a board who are really, typically people come from the industries differ, or they have also have done the startups. Of could be ex founder, founders who have successful exits. Or it can be, especially in some specialized tech, it can be really coming advisors from the industry who really know more more about the target clients, what’s the problem and how and the typical challenges the startup can occur, and that’s very important about utilizing it. So it’s also up to the to the person who is if it’s they have active role as an advisor or the senior expert, or only given a fractional, fractional person who really can help and structure or some of go to market is really to have this open dialog. So it’s not about really just exactly have this consensus, consensus atmosphere, that it’s okay. What the founder is saying when we would just would work on this is it’s very important to challenge that and to challenge that early on, because that’s when it’s really this diversity of expertise, and especially this relevant expertise, is super important to build around and actually leverage in the right way, asking the big questions not working in the silos. So it’s more about really, that sometimes with advisory boards, they are more the name. It’s more for the VC (Venture Capital), plus also for some of yes presentations, events, so for more of trust building. However, it’s really as well. The how I see the founders who get much more benefit is really who use, use the senior experts in the right way of having almost milestone checks really saying this is what we are working on. Let’s look back, and this is why we didn’t gain those pilots. While we did a lot of effort, we had a lot of conversations with those enterprises, but it doesn’t go anywhere. Let’s review that, and it’s more like bringing one level high of really bad view and challenge some of the assumptions which were there before. Christian Klepp  20:33 Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. And what you said is also really important, getting everybody to stop working in silos and exposing them to the to the to the bigger ecosystem. So we were talking about, like, dealing with pushback, and unfortunately, I’m going to have to ask you for more advice on that, because the next question is about something that I think you’re very familiar with, right? Because you’re dealing with a lot of these B2B tech startups. How do you deal with pushback from founders? You know, when you tell them that, listen, you don’t have a demand problem, you have a positioning and go to market architecture problem, and they look at you as if you’re like, What are you talking about, right? What is this positioning? What is this go to market architecture? This sounds to me like a waste of time, right? But how do you, how do you convince them that it’s, it’s, in fact, in their interest to deal with this, and how do you deal with that pushback? Adrijana Daragon  21:30 Yes, it’s more it’s also depends on the stage like which, how big it is, not over engineer some of activities early on. So it’s, yes, the demand is needed. But there’s also that the big risk is if we put especially, they get, sometimes the funding over and they press P dial on marketing budget. Advertising, I have seen that and then, and they are not very, very clear who are the right client, and especially as we talked who then do they, and especially in a bigger organizations targeting so we could really put a lot of advertising in the right target audience with a wrong message, and they could. And no surprise, the results don’t, don’t come afterwards, the deals are not coming those people, they might join your mailing list webinar, and that’s so far as we get, because we, most probably, we were just interested in what’s new out there. However, they are not really the right person who in the organization deciding this all it is really about your messaging didn’t connect to the problem, and they wouldn’t even book a call afterwards with the sales team. So this is the way I see it’s where it’s really about looking overall, about full funnel, not only about saying, if we get big volume of people leads, then everything will be okay. It’s it’s much more about lower volume, but of a right, right leads that will create less house, less activity. Because you can, you can really mistake a lot of activity will give a lot of good results. It’s more sometimes really stripping down, seeing really what’s working. And it requires somebody who would understand that really looking at the data, looking what, what are the different tests? What resonates? This is the stage when you typically did some tests. Early on, you are still at the stage of trying and working and understanding, but at the stage when you did some now it’s a time to really look at it review and see where you double down and what you don’t focus on. It’s always, I think it’s in sales and marketing is a lot about where do you put priorities? Where do you focus on and more, I think sometimes less the activities, but really, very clearly, can really simplify also the team effort to get into those deals, because sometimes the deals had stalled in the middle, but you didn’t have time because you were so busy. But if you would take time review it, maybe adjust the positioning, and then revive the conversation that could lead to this, to the to big ticket or deal, and that will will be much more important, versus doing extra trials on marketing. Christian Klepp  24:36 That’s exactly it. And you, I think you hit on something that is worth repeating. It’s also a lot about the strategy, right? Like a lot of a lot of startups that I’ve seen, they jump straight into the execution, right? Like you talked about it, like ads and then and lead generation. And I’m not saying that those things are not important. They are, but if you don’t have that understanding. Who the target audience is, and you don’t have a strategy in terms of, like, how you’re going to approach the market, you’re just going to be burning through money. And you and I both know how much ads cost, and if you don’t know what you’re doing, it’s like a vacuum cleaner now. But you touched on something that I think it’s worth revisiting and going back to, because it’s again. I know it might sound a bit repetitive, but why is it so important for them to understand, or have a deep understanding about who this potential customer is? Right? Why is it important for them to know that, and why is it important for them to understand the buyer’s journey? Because, you know, depending on what stage of the journey these people are in, they may have different motivations, or they may have different reasons for looking for a product or solution. Adrijana Daragon  25:49 I think it’s, it’s really important. That will make or break your traction and more, and that’s really the part of understanding and speaking in about the customer, sometimes even better than the customer themselves. Makes the customer really feel you understand you are credible, you build… I can trust you. And that’s really it says speed dial. It’s a speed dial to really, to retraction, to really, this is what is important part is to especially in B2B, you, it’s building credibility and trust so that you really know, yes, you have a great credentials in terms of a technology that your solution. That’s important part. However, the equally is also important, the the understanding commercially how this technology can help your customers. It’s really about your customers, especially when we talk about you, mentioned about buying centers and complex organizations. That’s when it’s really thereby. It’s a lot about reducing risks. It’s a lot about minimizing transition costs. So it’s more about that you are not really too risky for them to to buy from. And this is it goes beyond the technology. It’s a lot about understanding and talking in the language of a customer that you have discovered very clearly, very proactively, in first, in your mind, when afterwards, all your communication. And this is where it comes the strategy is super important. But I see it’s it’s not a strategy where you need just a document, somebody quickly did it, or like now, it’s the AI or somebody out of touch. It requires, as well, real validation. So that’s where it’s important. The strategy with validation, which is not on paper document, it’s really about kind of almost agreement of what’s the core, or what’s the core, what we are doing, trying to achieve, and how the way we trying to achieve that. So this helps you, is for the founder, for the rest of the team, and then we are talking about gaining traction, bring the rest of together. The strategy changes over time. Some elements the market also adjusts. Technologies adjust, but this is super important part of stop wasting time on of doing too many activities and really looking at what, what really will move a needle. Christian Klepp  28:39 Wait a second, you mean that the strategy has to be adjusted. I thought the strategy is just something you do one time and then you forget about it. Adrijana Daragon  28:49 I think it’s that’s why, that’s what this gets a lot of times. I think it’s as well in a tech companies, they do especially early stages that pitch documents thinking overall, that’s the part of saying what’s addressable market. So say we did, we have our covered. I have our go to market. We have our plan. That’s it’s great. It gives us some of her some it’s already good starting points, but there is much more on that. It’s really ongoingly effort, and that’s why it’s why there are really the teams who succeed. Is really the founder, is leading the sales and marketing organization. And then they are, they are close to the customer. So it’s not only to the product, but we need to be close to the customer. And then they are like, really bridge, bridging the gaps as well as we go, because it’s also the different challenges. But being close to the customer and hearing that and not working in a silo and bringing back that knowledge is super important. And so it’s that document changes a lot of times. It’s, it’s, can be, it’s not 180 story. It’s. Sometimes it will be big pivots. There are pivots as well. You scrap your current product, and you see that some of the one leg can really move forward, like there are examples like Spotify, and I was wherever I started and they landed. But this is moving. It’s a moving piece, not one set in stone piece. Christian Klepp  30:22 Right. So I think for this next question, if you really want to get very deep, it will take us several hours to talk about it, but just in the interest of time, maybe you can just give us a top level perspective, right? Just based on your own experience, walk us through how the B2B startups should fix their positioning, go to market architecture problems. So just give us the key steps. What are the key components that need to be in that process? Adrijana Daragon  30:51 I think it’s in beginning, especially it’s important of looking at and picking one target customer. So one industry, one target customer, thinking about your resources. It’s a lot about your resources, especially a lot of technologies are agnostic. So that’s the typical pitfall of saying it’s for everyone, but it’s almost for nobody, really. So it’s about picking one of the customer target, and that’s typically comes either which one you are familiar with, where you come, come from, or you have great access to as well. So it’s really there. You can see it’s it helps you to validate early, to get access to real people, talk to them, to see, to see, to get that feedback, fine tune and not over developer MVP (Minimum Viable Product). MVP like the first products a lot of times as well, because that’s really what we talked that it comes together together, that MVP, it will be most of the times. You will scratch it. You will build a next level moving forward. But this will help you to launch, launch, and iterate faster and not always spend time. There is a difference in deep tech. It takes time, sometimes 10 years, 10 years based on the research. So there are nuances as well. So it’s not there as well, but this is very important part of narrowing the focus in beginning will help you to grow, to go faster, to go faster and to really get the right right customers. And this, it’s very important for the to validate that with few customers, not only one, to really see if it is a scalable solution. So hence, we talking about the depth and breadth of a customer early on. So here we are talking about because sometimes here the risk is of choosing one customer. It’s almost fully designing it for that customer, to the point that is almost only relevant to that customer based on their requirements. So it’s seeing how you could leverage that pilot that you can really also offer to others afterwards, how? So it’s really things are thinking about the pilot in the right way, and here it’s so it’s more about who would be the few clients and how deep you can go. So for the pilots it can help you land in those companies. But afterwards, how you can move from the pilots to the full full projects, which we pay the bigger, bigger school projects. So this is the important I think, in a short period of time, I think that’s the important part of thinking about how you could get this early traction, and the early traction which is scalable. So these are fundamentals of thinking of okay, when you have this in the right way, then you see this breadth and depth of the customers, which you prove the point with, multiple of the customers. Then we got the feedback from the right customers. Helps you to grow faster. Moving on. Christian Klepp  34:23 Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I love how you also led with, like, narrowing the focus. And I think that’s so important. A lot of these, a lot of startups like you said, like, Okay, this is, this is for, you know, different different verticals, or the, you know, we have customers in different industries, but in the beginning, if you, if you have that mindset, and you approach the market that way, and I think you brought it up earlier on in the conversation, you start to spread yourself so thin. And a lot of these startups don’t have 500 employees, right? So, you know, it’s a handful of people, if they’re, if there’s 10 people in the startup, that’s already like, wow, I. Right? But there’s, there’s only a few people, and especially there’s only a few people responsible for business, right, and client acquisition. So if you start already in the beginning, spreading them so thin, how are you ever going to scale, right? Yeah, okay, fantastic. But okay, so maybe this is a question that you probably know the answer to. But I think it’s really important to put it into context, because when you say, narrow the focus, how do you get startups to narrow the focus, especially when they say, well, we built this tool, and it’s for different industries. How do you get them and especially because there’s a lot of people on LinkedIn saying, oh, narrowing the focus. That’s, that’s lazy advice. I disagree with that, by the way, but, um, but how do you get them to narrow the focus? How do you get them to just zero in on one particular vertical. Adrijana Daragon  35:52 So here, I can give a few examples. I think it is here. It’s really depends on, on, also the industry. How narrow is the narrow? Christian Klepp  36:03 Absolutely. Adrijana Daragon  36:04 So typically, my advice would be, you think that you are narrow, go even further. Christian Klepp  36:09 Okay. Adrijana Daragon  36:10 Go fever further, because it’s not only the big industries, but who are within the industries. And specifically, if you are saying, let’s say it’s technology solution. Technology solution of improving the productivity. And you care for enterprises. That’s typically a lot of enterprises, but if you choose one specific industry, saying these are the typically processes they have to improve, okay? But then there are a lot of teams, and within the teams, there are also the hierarchy, so understanding really more specific use cases. So that’s the typical way of thinking about where are the few use cases where you could really solve really well, and sometimes they come as exactly because you had the access to the market you can really have it’s easier for you. It’s more accessible, accessible one. But it’s also looking if it is, can be repeatable, repeatable, that there are various potential as well, moving forward, moving forward, forward. So there it’s, it’s, I think people are very scared, and other founders I work with of being too narrow, too narrow, but exactly as we talk about, it’s very small team. It’s better to have 10 earlier, like pilots, but it’s really been closed and you have strong learnings versus 100 of nice to have conversations and maybe few, but never really even have use cases closed in the multiple, multiple areas. This is where, like it happens that that going narrow. It really helps. And in in some very niche already, solutions like robotics, for the specific area, it takes really time as well to solve any problem, learn really depth about the customer. So you cannot spread yourself too thin on many, customers there. So the time in deep tech it takes to solve the problem, this is the especially I recommend in deep tech, very specific area to get the traction it’s really important to get it’s a narrow one, because this is where you invested a lot in the research a young competitive also differentiation on what’s the technology so it’s better solving really, truly well for amount of customers, and that’s really the build up, versus of going broad and losing this even the trust and credibility in the market. Christian Klepp  38:59 Absolutely, absolutely. You know, as you were explaining this, which I think you explained really well, it almost sounds like you have to get them to conduct an experiment. You remember, back in the school days, we were conducting experiments, and then we have to record the results, right? And then, okay, what worked, what didn’t work? Okay, what worked, scale, what didn’t work, stop, right? Or, or pivot, yeah, change the approach, right? We have to find out why didn’t it work? Right? What were the reasons? What was the feedback? Right? So it’s almost like, it’s almost like you have to have this experimental slash growth mindset. Adrijana Daragon  39:36 Yes, yes. That’s very important. I think it’s this growth mindset. It’s really there you are. It’s continuous iteration and learning. It’s learning as well. It’s also about asking the questions, being in the asking the questions, having a not this paralysis of no action. So you need to have the action for your actions, but the also thinking about, what is it behind? What would really we need to do to make this pilot successful? What, and also, when you are talking with a customer early on, on the pilot, super important is to ask, what needs to happen in this pilot. What are the success criteria for us to move from the pilot to the full project afterwards. So that’s the one like it helps tech as well to structure this experiments in the right way, in the right way, versus just when you are spreading to fin, you almost show the demo. Demos, give the solution, and then leaving the customer almost alone. So you didn’t give full, full effort in those pilots as well to get the right even the data behind. Christian Klepp  40:51 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Adrijana, this was such a great conversation, and you know, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your expertise and experience with the listeners. So please give us a quick introduction and how people out there can get in touch with you, especially if they’re in the B2B Tech or health startup space in Switzerland and Europe. Adrijana Daragon  41:11 Yes, sure. So I am go to market advisor and fractional CMO, or Chief Revenue Officer for B2B tech companies. I’m based in Switzerland. I operate with many European and also US companies who typically are still at the stage of founder led sales and marketing activities. And I support them, moving from heavy activity random sales to repeatable way of winning deals. And my company is called go to market advantage. So go to gtmadvantage.ch you can find also resources there as quick diagnostic tool as well. So it’s a three five minutes tool for them as well to get some of the low hanging fruits, what typically go to market challenges they have, and it gives them as well, some advice. And I’m happy to also, yes, share more of the discovery calls. Christian Klepp  42:22 Fantastic, fantastic, and we’ll be sure to put a link in the show notes when this episode comes out. So once again. Adrijana, thanks so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. Adrijana Daragon  42:32 Thank you.

Episode 32: Dan interviews his law partner Jessica. Makes fun of my shitty memory. This is why I forgot to post this episode. SMH. Viv is still the engineer somehow. 

I'm not violent, but my gym playlist says otherwise. Makes me think about what we take in and what it does to us - good and bad...or a mix of both.Stay connected:* YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@shannoncasonstoryteller* Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/shannoncason/* Twitter - https://twitter.com/shannoncason* Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/ShannonCasonTalks* TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@shannoncasonSupport the stories:* Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/shannoncason* CashApp - https://cash.app/$ShannonCason* PayPal - https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/homemadestories1* Merch & more - https://www.shannoncason.com/Supporters get a mention on the next Homemade Stories Podcast! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This was the first podcast I did on AI in 2024: https://drlaurendeville.com/podcasts/what-the-bible-says-about-artificial-intelligence And these are the rest of my notes, if you want to visit some of the verses I didn't read... שָׁמַע šāmaʿ: - to hear, listen to, obey, discern, perceive, understand- Listening to God specifically, and obeying: - Solomon's request (1 Kings 3:9): what he asks for is a heart that שָׁמַע šāmaʿ - to hear, listen to, obey, discern, perceive, that he might שָׁפַט šāp̄aṭ - judge, govern, vindicate, punish, and בִּין bîn - discern, understand, consider between good and evil. God gives him a heart that is חָכָם - ḥāḵām - wise, skilful, shrewd, learned, prudent, as well as בִּין bîn - discern, understand, consider between good and evil. - Gen 22:18: Abraham obeys God and was willing to offer Isaac (and now all the nations of the earth will be blessed), and then God reiterates this promise to Isaac (Gen 26:5) - Ex 15:26: If the people will listen and do God's commandments, they will be healed - Ex 23:22: if the people will listen, God will fight against their enemies - Ex 24:27: The people promise they will do what God said - (and many more examples of listening to God and obeying, esp in Psalms)- God's šāmaʿ to our prayers--if He hears, He responds (1 John 5:14-15) - Gen 16:11: He heard Hagar's distress and told her she'd have Ishmael - Gen 17:20: Abraham asks God to bless Ishmael and God agrees - Gen 29:33: Leah's prayers to God for children because she is hated - Ex 2:24: God heard the groanings of the Israelites - (and many, many more)- Listening and taking action (whether the action is good or bad, doing what the other person wanted or not--what is heard just prompts a response): - Gen 3:8: Adam and Eve šāmaʿ God after they ate the fruit, and hid themselves. - Gen 3:17 Adam šāmaʿ Eve (hearkened to): he ate the fruit when she asked him to. - Gen 11:7: God confused speech at the Tower of Babel so that they would not šāmaʿ each other - Gen 14:14: Abram heard (šāmaʿ) Lot was taken captive, and it caused him to gather an army - Gen 16:2: Sarai told Abram to sleep with Hagar, and he listened (šāmaʿ) to her - Gen 18:10: Sarai overhears (šāmaʿ) God's promise of a child... but her response is to laugh - Gen 27:5: Rebekah overhears (šāmaʿ) Isaac's word to Esau and takes matters into her own hands. - (and many, many more) שָׂכַל śāḵal: to be prudent, be circumspect, wisely understand, prosper, skill. Interesting that the same word means the knowledge of how to act, and also to prosper and gain favor - cause and effect are wrapped up in the same word. - Incidentally, the same word (sāḵāl), but spelled with a samekh (סָכָל) instead of a shin (שָׂכַל), means fool (Ecclesiastes 2:19, 7:17, 10:3, 10:14, Jeremiah 4:22, 5:21) - samekh סָ root meaning: a shield, leaning on, "supporting" or, in a negative sense, "blocking" (blocking one from God's wisdom) - vs shin שָׂ: A letter of fire, illumination, light - This is the word used in Gen 3:6, describing the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. It apparently thus also means the ability to choose your allegiance. It is spelled there with a shin... - To understand the bigger picture and act accordingly: - Deut 32:29: "O that they were wise, that they understood (śāḵal) this, that they would consider their latter end!" - 1 Sam 18:5: "And David went out whithersoever Saul sent him, and behaved himself wisely (śāḵal): and Saul set him over the men of war, and he was accepted in the sight of all the people, and also in the sight of Saul's servants." - Same word twice - for emphasis? 1 Sam 18:15: "Wherefore when Saul saw that he behaved himself (śāḵal) very wisely (śāḵal), he was afraid of him." - Ps 32: 8: "I will instruct thee (śāḵal) and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye." - Prov 1:2-3: This is the purpose of Proverbs: - "To know wisdom (hok-maw) and instruction; to perceive (bîn) the words of understanding (bînâ), To receive the instruction of wisdom (śāḵal), justice, and judgment (mišpāṭ), and equity." - This is the action as well as the adjective in most Proverbs translated "wise": 10:5, 10:19, 14:35, 15:24, 16:20, 16:23 (here it was the verb, to teach), 17:2, 19:14 (translated prudent here), 21:11 (here it's the passive verb, is instructed), 21:2 (here it's to consider), 21:16 (understanding here), - Isa 44:18: Jesus quoted this about people not understanding his parables " They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand (śāḵal)" - To prosper or to have favor: - Deut 29:9: "Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper (śāḵal) in all that ye do." - Joshua 1:7-8: "Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper (śāḵal) whithersoever thou goest. This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success (śāḵal)." - Also used for this meaning in Proverbs: 17:8- To be skillful: Dan 1:4, 1:17 (describing the Hebrew children) - In Job 34:35, Elihu speaking: "Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom (śāḵal)."- Prophecies of Jesus having śāḵal: Isaiah 52:13 Wisdom: חָכְמָה: (hok-maw):—skilful, wisdom, wisely, wit. - "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom," Ps 111:10, and "For the LORD giveth wisdom" (Prov 2:6). You can't have wisdom apart from His counsel (Prov 21:30).- God made the earth with wisdom (Jer 10:12, 51:15, Ps 104:24)- Humility precedes wisdom (Prov 11:2)--because fear of the Lord is a posture of humility (Prov 15:33, 1 Pet 5:6-7, Matt 5:3, 5). - If instead you trust in your own heart (reasoning), you are a fool - but wisdom will deliver you from trouble (Prov 28:26). - But too much wisdom can also somehow lead to pride, and pervert: Isaiah 47:10, Eze 48:4-17 (allegory of Satan) - and "knowledge puffs up" (1 Cor 8:1)- It's "the principal thing" (Prov 4:7), better than anything else we can desire (Prov 8:11, 16:16).- It described the Israelites if they followed God's laws (Deut 4:6), leaders anointed by God with the wisdom to lead (Deut 34:9) - For children, physical discipline eventually teaches wisdom (Prov 29:15).- An example: 2 Sam 20:22: the Israelite woman whose city is besieged because Sheba son of Bichri, a rebel against King David, was within. She speaks to Joab, finds out they want Sheba and if they give him up, Joab will spare the city. So "in her wisdom" (hok-maw) she promises they will throw his head to them over the wall. They do so, and Joab and his army departs. This is wisdom: not simply reacting with the typical emotions of anger, fear, etc from being besieged, but instead identifying and articulating both problem and solution. - Elihu says that he will teach Job and his three friends, who accuse God, wisdom (Job 33:33). - He later says that it is God who puts wisdom and understanding in our hearts (Job 38:36), and that he deprived animals of the same ability. A person who lacks understanding can only be controlled with physical consequences, by contrast (Prov 10:13) - and kids have to start out learning by physical discipline (Prov 29:15) as they are inherently foolish. - Numbering our days leads to wisdom (Ps 90:12) - bc we're "redeeming the time bc the days are evil?" (Eph 5:16) This sounds like wisdom is also discerning what truly matters vs what is passing away. - 2 Chron 1:10: in this version Solomon does ask for חָכְמָה: (khok-maw), and knowledge מַדָּע madāʿ- Then 1 Kings 3:28: after Solomon's judgment between the two would-be mothers (where he infers from the story that the real mother will love the child more than herself, and uses that to reveal hearts), the people conclude that he has חָכְמָה: (khok-maw). The Queen of Sheba came and asked him hard questions and there was nothing he couldn't answer (1 Kings 10:1-9).- Jesus displayed this kind of wisdom: - Prophesied: Isaiah 11:2 "And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD" In the NT: akouō (to hear, hearken, give audience): carries a similar "and to understand and obey/respond" implication as does šāmaʿ: Matt 15:10, 17:5, 18:15, Mark 7:14, Mark 12:29, Luke 8:21, 9:35, 10:16, 11:28, John 6:60, 8:23, 8:47, John 10:20, John 11:41-42- Matt 7:24, Luke 9:47-48: the man who hears and does what Jesus says is like the house built on the rock- John 5:25: those who hear Jesus (and respond) will have life--spiritually and literally (v 28)- If the people in the cities don't hear your words, shake the dust off your feet: Matt 10:14, Mark 6:11 - Matt 10:27: preach whatever you akouō from Me- Matt 12:42, Luke 11:31: The Queen of Sheba went to akouō Solomon's wisdom- Luke 10:39: Mary prioritized hearing Jesus- John 10:3, 16, 27: the sheep hear His voice- John 16:13 The Holy Spirit tells us what He hears from the Father- "He who has ears to hear, let him hear": Matt 11:15, 13:9, 13:43, Mark 4:9, 4:33, 7:16, 8:18, Luke 8:8, 14:35- Those who heard and understood were astonished: Mark 6:2- Luke 16:29-31: Those who hear Moses and the prophets and understand what they hear will also hear about Jesus (because they pointed to Him)- Matt 11:4-5, Luke 7:22: John's disciples were to go back and tell him what they had seen and heard- Luke 10:24: Wise men of old desired to hear what the disciples heard - He speaks in parables bc the people don't have ears to hear: Matt 13:13-18, Mark 4:12, 4:23, Luke 8:10 - The parable of the sower: those who hear but don't understand have nothing to take root. This is the precondition for wisdom. Matt 13:19, Mark 4:15, Luke 8:12 - But if you do understand, you still have to maintain single focus so it's not choked out: Matt 13:20-23, Mark 4:16-20, Luke 8:13-15- "Take heed what/how you hear" precedes "with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you" (Mark 4:24, Luke 8:18: what you listen to (and respond to) determines the direction of your life. - Also often used to just mean to hear with your ears (many places) phronimos (intelligent, wise, prudent, i.e. mindful of one's interests)- Matt 7:24: the man who builds his house upon a rock by doing what Jesus says rather than just hearing it is phronimos - Matt 24:45, Luke 12:42: the wise servant is the one whom the Master will find doing what he was told, when the Master returns. - Matt 25: the parable of the wise virgins (also prepared with oil); the parable of the talents right after this seems to imply the same (looking ahead and making the most of what we've been given) though the word 'wise' doesn't appear there. - Luke 12:42-48: describes the foolish servants who know the will of their master but when he returns, he finds them disobeying. - Matt 10:16: wise as serpents, harmless as doves: - AW: This means we aren’t totally defenseless. Wisdom is a powerful force that gives us an advantage. - Luke 16:8: the parable of the unjust steward - he's called wise (shrewd) for looking out for his own interests. (Still not sure what the point of this parable was) Sophia: wisdom, broad and full of intelligence; used of the knowledge of very diverse matters. The varied knowledge of things human and divine, acquired by acuteness and experience, and summed up in maxims and proverbs, the science and learning, the act of interpreting dreams and always giving the sagest advice, the intelligence evinced in discovering the meaning of some mysterious number or vision, devout and proper prudence in intercourse with men not disciples of Christ, skill and discretion in imparting Christian truth, the knowledge and practice of the requisites for godly and upright living; supreme intelligence, such as belongs to God.- Matt 12:42, Luke 11:31: Jesus used this word to describe Solomon's wisdom - Acts 7:10 same word describes Joseph, and 7:22: Moses - Matt 13:54, Mark 6:2: the people said Jesus had this after listening to his teachings and were astonished- Luke 12:11-12, 21:15: God promises to give His followers such godly wisdom that none of our adversaries would be able to resist it - Acts 6:10: example of this - 1 Cor 1:17, 2:5: and yet Paul says the wisdom of words is insufficient; the gospel needs power to back it. That's because (worldly) wisdom wouldn't receive it--the world considers godly wisdom foolishness (1 Cor 1:19). The wisdom of the world and the wisdom of God are diametrically opposed! (1 Cor 1:20-25) - 1 Cor 2:6-8: Paul again contrasts the wisdom "of this age" with the wisdom of God. (Makes me think of sāḵāl - same word, two spellings, one meaning foolish, depicting that the person is blocked off from God's wisdom, and one meaning wise, and the letter means that he is guided by the light of God's wisdom). Even so, the natural man considers the things of God foolish (1 Cor 2:14), and God likewise considers the wisdom of this world foolish (1 Cor 3:19-20). - Jesus also said God hid Him from the "wise and prudent" (of that age) and revealed them to babes (Matt 11:25).- James 1:5: we can ask God for sophia- Matt 5: The Beatitudes teach an inversion of the world's wisdom: how the world actually works. - It's summed up with Matt 6:33 (and Luke 12:22-34): "seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." - Matt 10:27-31 says similar: don't fear men; fear God (trusting that He loves you). Live in single-minded allegiance to Him. And 11:39: "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it." If you "find your life" apart from Him, you've lost everything: the ultimate foolishness. He repeats this: Matt 16:25-26 - and Deny yourself, take up your cross - if you desire to save your life you'll lose it, and if you lose your life for Him you'll find it (Luke 9:23-27, John 12:25). - As you do this, by abiding in Him, You get whatever you desire (John 15:7-8, 16) - Mary and Martha: another lesson about singleness of focus on Him being the most important thing (Luke 10:38-42). - Luke 11:33-36: it takes light and a receptive eye to see. Jesus is always shining - It’s our eyes that don’t see. Jesus was telling us how to get our eyes opened to His light: we have to be single in our focus on Him. The Greek word that was translated “eye” in this verse is “OPHTHALMOS.” Vine’s Expository Dictionary defines this Greek word as “singleness of motive.” If our attention is divided, however, we will have the darkness of this world in us instead of God’s light. - So it isn't that we have to have "VIEW" rather than a POINT of view in order to see the bigger picture. Rather, our point of view needs to be fixed on Him, and then everything else will find its proper alignment. - True leaders must serve all (Mark 9:35, 10:43-45, Luke 22:26). Last will be first, and first will be last (Mark 10:31, Luke 13:30). If you humble yourself you will be exalted, and if you exalt yourself you will be humbled (Luke 14:11, 18:14). - What you give, you get back and then some (Luke 6:38, 14:14, 18:29-30) - Luke 12:16-21: Conversely, a fool is one who lays up treasure for himself in this life. - Luke 19:12-27: the parable of the minas: The wicked servant was motivated by fear; he didn't trust the master's heart, and didn't use what he had. So he lost even that. - He draws a hard line: all in or all out (Luke 11:22)-- because this is a war (Luke 9:58-62). You must comparatively hate everyone, even your own life, in comparison to Him (Luke 14:26). No one is neutral. He describes opponents in adversarial language ("lambs among wolves", Luke 10:3), and everything hinges on what people do with the message of the Kingdom (10:11-16). You either love the light or love the darkness (John 3:19-21). - So many parables Matt 24:45, Matt 25, Luke 12:42-48, Luke 13:24-30) are about servants doing what their master wants while he is away so that he will find them so doing when he returns... probably bc the point is "redeem the time bc the days are evil" (Eph 5:16) and numbering our days gives wisdom (Ps 90). It seems the point is, time is short, and the stakes are very high, so be single-minded in your focus on Jesus and the Kingdom. - Luke 14:25-33: Just as a king wouldn’t engage in war without thoroughly considering all the possible outcomes, so no one should attempt to become a disciple of Jesus without counting the cost. It would be better never to start following Jesus than to start and then turn back (Luke 9:62 and 2 Peter 2:20-22). - The rest of the Sermon on the Mount: teaches that what matters isn't actions (as all their teachers had told them), but motive--and ultimately this goes back to allegiance. - Matt 11:28: "Come to Me, all you who are weary and heavy laden" - with trying to follow the law. So stop both trying to be good enough, and also trying to follow your own wisdom. - Spirit vs flesh: allegiance determines this too. We have to come to Him, and He will give us the Spirit, without which we cannot successfully worship Him (John 4:24). Outwardly keeping the OT was all in the flesh, and it would never work. It was never meant to. Only the Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing (John 6:63).- He repeatedly says, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" (Matt 11:15, 13:9), and explains that those who have [wisdom] will get more, and those who have chosen not to hear and see will lose even what they have (Matt 13:10-17) - The parable of the sower: God's word brings wisdom (Prov 21:30), but the people have to hear and understand (šāmaʿ). If they don't, the enemy will steal it right away (13:19). The one who hears, understands, and receives with joy, but has no root--he might šāmaʿ, but if he doesn't śāḵal (act accordingly), he won't bear fruit either. Same with the one who is choked with the cares of the world. But the one who both šāmaʿ (hears and understands) and śāḵal (acts accordingly, is a doer of the word) is the one who will bear a harvest--seeking the Kingdom and letting God bring the supply for their needs and increase. - The parable of the two sons: the one who says he won't do the will of the father but does has truly śāḵal, while the one who says ok and doesn't is just a hypocrite: Matt 21:28-32 - In dealing with the Pharisees: their "wisdom" said good was following the law, and anyone who didn't do so according to their own teachings must be evil. The people surely could have been confused by what is good and what is evil. So Jesus clarifies: - makes the distinction of the spirit vs the letter of the law (Matt 9:11-13, 12:3-8, 12:11-12, 15:17-20, John 7:22-24) -- and also illustrates how they've added their own "letters of the law" and elevated those above what God actually said (Matt 15:3-9) - Uses the logic of motive (a house divided cannot stand): Matt 12:24-30, Luke 11:16-22). - tells the people to judge good and evil by the fruit it produces: Matt 12:33-35 - When they're trying to trap them, He: - turns the tables and asks them a question He knows they won't answer for political reasons: Matt 21:23-27 (John's baptism: from heaven or men), Matt 22:41-45 (how David can call his son 'Lord' - bc He's also God, which they didn't want to admit) - gives them an accurate non-answer: Matt 22:15-22 (the image of Caesar on the denarius) - answers the real question, rather than the one they were asking: Matt 22:23-33 (is there a resurrection of the dead?)- Enigmatic, dark sayings: Matt 8:20-22, 9:16-17, 12:31-32, Matt 13:35 (prophesied that this would be the case, in Ps 78:2) - He seems to jump topics without bothering to explain the connection (Matt 12:38-42: the pharisees ask for a sign. He says they'll get the sign of the prophet Jonah - in retrospect we know this was his death and resurrection. Then because they still won't believe, they will be condemned... and says "this wicked generation" will be like a wicked spirit cast out that then returns and brings more evil spirits, 12:43-45) - He jumps from one metaphor to another without explaining the connection (from the parable of the sower - God's word - to a lamp - God's word too) and then just says "if anyone has ears to hear, let him hear" (Mark 4:21-22). Then "take heed what you hear" - if you steward and obey the word you have been given, you'll get more. But he never says that this refers to the word explicitly either (Mark 4:24-25) - Luke 12: all over the place: the "do not worry" passage, followed by servants being faithful while their master is away, followed by Christ bringing division on the earth within families, and then "discern the time," and then "make peace with your adversary" -- are these related? - He speaks to John's disciples in a riddle only John will likely understand (Matt 11:2-6) - In what way is the kingdom of God "tiny" only to later grow and become large? (Luke 13:18-21) and what is the point of saying so? - He just changes the subject to what He wants to talk about (Matt 12:48-50): "your mother and brothers are here," and he says, "those who are my mother and brothers are those who do the will of My Father." - Another example: Luke 12:14-15: someone comes to him and asks him to arbitrate inheritance between brothers. He says that's not his job, and then warns the crowd against covetousness. - He clearly understood the foundations of how the world worked--why things were the way they were. Everyone around him saw only the carnal, visible, literal reality, and lived and reacted on that level. He was frustrated by this, and tried to teach: - What matters is not external actions, but the motive of the heart, which eventually comes out in words (Matt 15:16-20) - Reality bows the knee to faith: Matt 16:8-11, 17:20-21, 18:18-20, 21:21-22, Mark 11:22-24 - This is why He was so impressed with the Centurion: he understood that Jesus' authority transcended the physical world (Luke 7:9). Everyone else was so focused on the practical reality that this never even occurred to them. - Jesus met people on this physical level and gave them evidence (Luke 24:38-43) but said that wasn't the highest form of faith (John 20:29) - He understood the big picture: not just what was, but why things were the way they were, God's original purpose, and how He fit in (Luke 4:18-21, 24:25-27) - Because He knew context, rather than just the words and commands of scripture, Satan couldn't twist it to trap Him either (Luke 4:2-12.) - All the prophets that the Pharisees spent their life studying pointed to Jesus, and they missed it (Matt 16:2-4, John 5:38-40, 46-47)... because they were focusing on keeping the literal letter of the law (to the point of physical phylacteries, from Deut 6:8). It seems to never have occurred to them why things were the way they were. - I suspect their focus on minutiae and not on the underlying realities was also what allowed them to stop looking at the Lord as their source, which led to misplaced priorities, and greed (John 2:16 - buying and selling at the temple). I can see how they might have justified this, that it didn't *preclude* prayer and sacrifice to have a little side business going there too. But it revealed the focus of their hearts, and where their trust was, and effectively made God's real purpose for the Temple into a footnote. Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.