Podcasts about makes

You've heard of Nerd Clusters. What about SweetTart Fusions? What about Nerd GOONERS?! What about a movie where a deer gets killed but makes a weird sound? What about us apologizing to each other for our previous episode. Makes you think, huh? Music/SFX: If you like our sounds, sign up for ONE FREE MONTH on us at Epidemic Sound! Over 30,000 songs: http://share.epidemicsound.com/n96pc Follow The Valleyfolk across the digital globe: http://twitter.com/TheValleyfolk http://instagram.com/TheValleyfolk http://facebook.com/TheValleyfolk Follow the group on their personal socials: Joe Bereta: http://twitter.com/JoeBereta http://instagram.com/joebereta Elliott Morgan: http://twitter.com/elliottcmorgan http://instagram.com/elliottmorgan Steve Zaragoza: http://twitter.com/stevezaragoza http://instagram.com/stevezaragoza http://twitch.tv/elliottmorgan don't look it up

Blessed Blade of the Whatever!So I went to take a crack at The Nine in Sanctum of Domination...ya know, the Maw. It's still a pain in the ass, btw. But I did discover something I forgot. If you die in the maw, you just kinda respawn somewhere. Makes sense, though, since it's supposedly Warcraft Hell. Where was I gonna go, Detroit?Wwwhats up swingaz? From the tbhq in the grizzly Midwest, welcome to Thrall's Balls episode 234!Mixed drink of the week (Gershom - Thunderfury)-elderberry flower tea ice cubes-shot of coconut vodka-diet 7 up-lime juice to tasteNext week: Woolly - Xal'atath, Blade of the Black EmpireWhat have we done in WoW?WoW NewsTrading Posthttps://www.wowhead.com/news/take-a-midsummer-stroll-in-the-june-trading-post-38174112.0.7https://www.wowhead.com/news/midnight-patch-12-0-7-ptr-now-a-release-candidate-build-381735https://www.wowhead.com/news/large-experience-buffs-for-quests-in-patch-12-0-7-381676Go ahead and follow us in the social places. You can find the various proper spellings in the episode description!@Woolly08 twt insta @PlaggyBoy tktk@HunterGershom twt @HunterGerrshom insta GershomOutLoud@gmail.com@ThrallsBallsPod Twt InstaSearch ThrallsBallsPod on YoutubeEmail us with any feedback or questions: ThrallsBallsPodcast@gmail.comYou can also leave us feedback on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or even in a specialized reviews channel on our Discord. Go to ThrallsBalls.com to find our Linktree.All of our show's relevant links (including Discord) can be found there.Bye we love you be good!https://discord.gg/HuFkhagM3Z

"What does the Bible say about borders and immigration?"Leviticus 19:33-34Summer Heat SeriesPastor Nate ClarkeMay 31, 2026Virginia's proposed Constitutional amendments on Abortion & Marriage - How to VOTE BIBLICALLY: https://youtu.be/Y8z8xTFsOn8How should Christians respond to wickedness in the world? https://youtu.be/2OJUIM9YRwASERMON NOTES:- Leviticus 19:33-34- What does the Bible say about borders and immigration?- Tribalism: organized around ethnicity. Protect your own. Fear the outsider. - Nationalism: organized around borders, shared values and morals, and laws.- “E Pluribus Unum” = “out of many, one”- “We are a nation of immigrants. But we are also a nation of laws.” Presidents Obama and Clinton- The role of the Christian, the role of the government, and the role of the immigrant- Leviticus 19:33-34- The role of the Christian: do not mistreat the foreigner, but love them- The role of the government: to protect the people and borders of its nation and administer justice without partiality. - What does the Bible have to say about national borders?- Acts 17:26- Numbers 34:1-2- A rule that is not enforced isn't a rule. Borders that aren't enforced aren't borders. A nation without borders isn't a nation. Therefore, a nation that doesn't enforce its borders will cease to be a nation. - Why should a nation respect and protect its borders?- National security- Nehemiah 13:1-3- To preserve its prosperity- Leviticus 19:15- Proverbs 6:30-31- Romans 13:1-2- Romans 13:3-5- The role of the immigrant is to join in with and obey the laws of the nation.- Ancient Israel: outsiders could join but they had to follow proper procedures to do so and could not change the culture or reshape the covenant in Israel.- Exodus 12:49 (one common law)- Exodus 20:10 (nations customs and rhythms)- Leviticus 18:26 (standards of morality, right and wrong)- Exodus 12:48 (uncomfortable, sacrificial ways)- Deuteronomy 31:12 (learn the Hebrew language)- Nehemiah 13:15-21 (morals and values)- The Story of Ruth    - Foreigner from Israel (Moabite)- Deuteronomy 23:3    - Resident foreigner. Leaves her land and joins culture and laws of Israel- Ruth 1:16-17     - Welcomed and living, but within laws- Leviticus 19:9-10    - Makes it official, married to Boaz (Ruth 4:1-12)    - Joined Israel, part of the genealogy of Jesus, the great-grandmother of King David- Ephesians 2:12-13, 19- Philippians 3:20Oasis Church exists to Worship God, Equip the believers, and Reach the lost.We are led by Pastor Nate Clarke and are located in Mechanicsville outside Richmond in Central Virginia.STAY CONNECTEDInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/oasischurchva/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/OasisChurchRVA/Website: https://oasischurch.online

✔️ Signed Isn't Enough—Is Your Divorce ENFORCEABLE? | Los Angeles Divorce Signing an agreement is one thing — making sure it is enforceable is another. In California divorce cases, clarity and proper documentation are what help agreements hold up long after the divorce is finalized. In this video, we explain what makes divorce documents enforceable, why vague or incomplete terms can create problems later, and how properly structured agreements provide stronger protection. Divorce661 helps clients prepare clear, complete divorce paperwork designed to support enforceability and reduce future disputes.

Ryan joins us this week to head back to the pond for another episode of The Way Home. ABOUT: THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 6) Elliot becomes engrossed with uncovering more of his mother's secret history and recruits Kat's help, while Jacob reacclimatizes to life in Port Haven. AIR DATE & NETWORK FOR: THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 6) May 24, 2026 | Hallmark Channel CAST & CREW OF: THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 6) Chyler Leigh as Kat Landry Evan Williams as Elliot Augustine Sadie Laflamme as Alice Dhawan Andie MacDowell as Del Landry BRAN'S THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 6) SYNOPSIS Jacob is back out on horseback, just like the good old days. He goes to see his friend Danny and is like, “Sorry I was gone for a while, but I'm here now and ready to help.” Meanwhile, Elliot is going full conspiracy mode, reading every article he can find. Kat keeps trying to get ahold of him to see if he's coming to dinner, but he's too busy printing copies of important archives. He eventually shows up, completely zonked, and leaves pretty quickly. Things are still awkward between Jacob and Del, and Kat encourages him to talk to her. Then Jacob randomly brings up those threatening letters that I had completely forgotten about. Kat talks with Del about her loss back in 1979, and they have a really sweet heart-to-heart. Later, Del goes outside to talk to her horse…and the horse starts acting weird. Makes you wonder. Jacob meets Max, but the conversation gets cut short when he sees the mysterious girl from the bar walking past the window. He follows her to the park, where she introduces herself as Abby. Turns out both of their families are from the area. They head back together, and that's when Jacob realizes Abby is Max's sister. She finds out he's Jacob Landry, and when he learns she's Abby Goodwin, she's basically like, “Okay…I'm outta here.” Kat goes to check on Elliot, and he suddenly kisses her BIG TIME. She also spots the copied archives, but Elliot gets weird and makes up excuses about why he has them. He suspects his mom may have been a fortune teller back in the 1920s, and Kat remembers hearing stories about one. They find a flyer advertising an upcoming fortune-telling event that hasn't happened yet, so naturally they decide they're jumping back together. Max surprises Alice with a plaque on “their table,” but yeah, they're totally just friends. Del tries talking to the horse again, but this time it charges at her. Jacob offers to help, but Del snaps that she'll just get attached and then he'll leave again. Starting to think she's not really talking about the horse anymore. Kat and Elliot make it to the carnival in the past. The pond is ponding. Alice runs into KC again. She's like, “Why are you here?” KC responds, “I don't know. Pond be ponding.” Alice immediately asks, “Am I your mom? Do I marry Max?” KC refuses to answer directly but says, “Good questions. Follow your gut and you'll have no regrets.” Kat and Elliot search through carnival tents looking for Elliot's mom. Kat spots the Auggie boys and Elliot follows them while Kat chases after someone she thinks might be Tessa. Naturally, they lose each other. The Auggie boys end up capturing Elliot. Luckily, Elliot manages to beat them up himself, but then Cliff shows up and arrests the boys. Kat and Elliot reunite and run into Fern, who urgently tells them to leave. Then they discover Cliff let the Auggie boys go free because, apparently, money talks. Back in the present, Del keeps working with the horse, and it finally starts trusting her again while Jacob watches from a distance. Kat and Elliot finally locate the fortune teller's tent. A huge crowd gathers, including basically everyone they know from the 1920s storyline. The fortune teller walks onstage and…I still honestly don't know if it's Elliot's mom. She calls Kat onstage and reads her palm, telling her she's a time traveler and that she's there to rescue her. Then “Tessa” asks Kat to meet her backstage. But before they can actually talk, the Auggie boys kidnap her. Kat realizes they're probably taking her to the shipping docks. Jacob also runs into KC, who refuses to explain much about who they really are besides saying their name is “just a name.” Then Abby shows up, and Jacob is basically like, “I think fate brought us together.” Kat and Elliot track the Auggie boys to the docks and see them loading Tessa onto a ship while saying, “Capone is gonna love this.” Alice tells Max she doesn't want to leave, and he completely freaks out on her. Jacob finally tells Del that he's staying. And then, at the very end, Kat rushes in to stop the Auggie boys…only to discover that Tessa is actually the ringleader. Elliot runs up yelling, “Mom!” and Tessa immediately makes sure he gets knocked out. Watch the show on Youtube - www.deckthehallmark.com/youtubeInterested in advertising on the show? Email bran@deckthehallmark.com Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

We have Brett Lander on the podcast this week. He's the GM of the Waco Woolly Wranglers, a new team in a new summer collegiate league, the Cowboy Collegiate League. Brett talks about the team and the league. He shares a little about his background and why Waco is a good place for a summer baseball team to play. He shares his favorite Texas Rangers players and his Proffitt & Loss.Makes sure to follow the Woolly Wranglers online.Waco Woolly Wranglers - Website: https://www.wacowoollywranglers.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wacowoollywranglersInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/wacowoollywranglers (@WacoWoollyWranglers)Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/wacowranglers (@WacoWoollyWranglers)Earned Fun Average - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/earnedfunavg/ (@EarnedFunAvg)Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/earnedfunavg/ (@EarnedFunAvg)Blue Sky: https://www.bsky.app/profile/earnedfunavg.bsky.social  (@EarnedFunAvg.bsky.social)Threads: https://www.threads.com/@earnedfunavg (@EarnedFunAvg)Curved Brim Media -Website: https://www.curvedbrimmedia.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/curvedbrimmedia/ (@CurvedBrimMedia)Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/CurvedBrim/ (@CurvedBrim)

✉️ How to Properly Serve Divorce Papers to an Out-of-State Spouse | Los Angeles Divorce Serving divorce papers to a spouse in another state can feel more complicated — but distance doesn't make proper service requirements disappear. In this video, we explain how out-of-state service works, why approved methods and proof of service matter, and how mistakes in interstate service can quietly delay your case. Divorce661 helps guide clients through every required step, making sure service is handled correctly and documented properly so your case keeps moving forward.

Fantasy Baseball Live! – May 24, 2026Segments 1 and 2 – Review the weekend gamesAdditional Notes:1.With the struggles of Steven Kwan this season, Travis Bazzana has been moved to the leadoff spot.a.What is your assessment of him so far this season?b.When do we pull the trigger on Steven Kwan and throw him on the waiver wire – he's hitting .199 with 1 home run and 2 SB. Granted, he also has a .224 BABIP, so I would expect a correction. But the xERA is still only .223. Yikes!2.Kevin Alcantara is getting another shot. He can't hit, but there is speed and power. Your thoughts.a.BTW, quietly Spencer Jones was demoted last week. The fanfare of a demotion is never the same as that of a promotion.3.So it's not Franklin Arias at shortstop, the Red Sox are turning to Marcelo Mayer and his .216 batting average and .286 OBP. a.I really missed on this one. The bat speed is clearly there – ranking in the top quartile of the leagues, but his 87 mph EV and 9% of loft is making him an easy out. Makes great contact, it's just weak.i.Your thoughts?4.Gerrit Cole returned and the velo was spot on. The swing miss of his secondary stuff was not quite there but overall he looked good.a.Your thoughts?5.Cristopher Sanchez has pitched 37.2 of scoreless innings. How is that possible? He's also pitching extremely deep into games. Just dominant.6.Jonah Tong quietly got the call but it appears he will pitch out of the bullpen.a.Any interest?7.Taj Bradley is back, touching 100 mph and shoving it. On Saturday, he pitched 5 innings of one run ball, striking out 7.8.Zack Wheeler has been dominant since returning from TOS. I thought pitchers didn't come back very well from that? Segment 3 – Waiver WireSegment 4 – Closer ReportClose

Join Phil Perry as he breaks down all 32 starting quarterbacks ahead of the 2026 season. Who are this years biggest risers and fallers? Also, Phil digs into his Mailbag, and Kevin Byard explains how he gets so many interceptions 06:00 - The A-List QBs 17:30 - The Alien Tier QBs 24:30 - The Imperfect, but We're glad to have you! QBs 28:50 - Don't Love it, But we have hope ! QB's 34:10 - You're on the clock! QBs 39:20 - Have to see it QBs 42:10 - Makes you nervous QBs 44:45 - Seen Enough QBs 46:55 - Phil's Mailbag 01:00:20 - Kevin Byard talks Interceptions

In this UK personal finance Q&A episode, Pete Matthew and Roger Weeks answer six listener questions covering pensions, retirement planning, investing, and mortgages. You will hear practical guidance on topics like using UFPLS and ISAs for gifting, whether dividend income is a sensible retirement strategy, and what to consider before consolidating multiple pensions into one provider. The episode also tackles planning priorities, including how to sense-check your annual financial review, when it is worth switching to a higher-equity pension fund, and how to balance pension contributions versus ISA funding and mortgage overpayments. If you are looking for clear, jargon-free retirement and wealth-building advice in a UK context, this one is packed with real-world considerations and next-step thinking. Shownotes: https://meaningfulmoney.tv/QA50    02:24  Question 1 Hello gents, My wife and I are hopefully about 5 years off retirement starting at 60, and thinking about options for gifting. We are both planning to stay within the basic band, but if plans go well we hope to support our kids while we're still alive with help towards a house deposit or similar. Am wary that a large withdrawal from a DC pot would likely take us into high rate tax. This would be mainly on me as we'd plan to spend my wifes smaller DC pot down during 60-67 to max personal allowance before state pension kicks in. Is there any downside if I immediately draw UFPLS from my DC up to the top of the basic rate threshold, and putting excess into a cash or S&S ISA? That would then build up tax free and be used to fund family gifts (or perhaps replacing a car). my thinking is - the portion we move to ISA is still effectively part of the retirement portfolio - just held in a different wrapper. thanks for your priceless information (for education and information only not guidance!) over the years. long may it continue! cheers, Richard   07:15  Question 2 Hello Pete and Rog, Loving the Podcast having only found it recently.  You're doing great work. I've bought and read your retirement book, signed-up for an intro call with Pete and am thinking about doing your course. In the meantime, and I know this is greedy, I have three questions.  I think they'll be interesting to your listeners, though, so here we go... First, what are your thoughts on funding retirement income completely or mostly from dividends / coupon payments, rather than capital withdrawal?  For me it seems very attractive because I can draw-down the income on a quarterly basis while not touching the capital.  That makes me feel safer from having to sell in a down-market.  I can also expect the capital to grow a bit over time, at least the equity generating dividend element.  That said, I've seen one of the other retirement finance podcasters say that technically it doesn't matter whether you take income or capital. Second, if I adopt an UFPLS approach to my pension and, rather than take a large tax free sum one-off, I take the 25% of each withdrawal as tax free, how does that work in the future in two respects.  First, can the government later change the rules and say that I can no longer take 25% as tax free?  I assume they can, which would be worrying.  Second, does the lifetime £268k limit for tax free cash still apply cumulatively over-time i.e. can I only continue to take 25% of my withdrawals as tax free up until they cumulatively sum to £268k?  Or, am I allowed to take 25% of each withdrawal, even as the fund might grow in value and then the total of these 25%s over say 10-15 years eventually exceeds £268k? Third, I'm aware the age at which you can take your pension is changing from 55 to 57.  I will be 55 in March 2027, so can access my pension under current rules.  But I will not be 57 when the change kicks-in in April 2028, so am I going to then lose access to my pension for a number of months until I then turn 57 in Mar 2029?  I've heard someone say that there might be an exception for people who have already accessed their pension.  I've also heard it depends on whether there are certain protections/terms around the individual pension fund.  Any advice on whether this would be true would be very helpful. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on any or all of the above. Best of luck with the pod. cheers, Steve 14:52  Question 3 Hi Pete & Roger, Thanks for the advice (go on, name that film) over 2025 and the podcasts. There is a ton of material on you tube covering why pension consolidation is a good thing. How it simplifies the admin. How it makes it easier to track what you have and how it is performing etc. Why wouldn't I want to consolidate all my pensions and what could be the disadvantages of consolidation? Recently I've met with my IFA and for a year now I have been investing heavily into my SIPP. As the IFA he charges for the service he provides and I am happy with that (for now). The charges are low with this provider (Quilter) and it performs well as a medium risk opportunity. My IFA, rightly in my opinion, suggests avoiding keeping my Octopus (previously Virgin) pension as this doesn't offer flexi drawdown and is higher risk than my Quilter SIPP but with only slightly better performance. I have four pensions (SIPP) in total. Now my IFA would of course benefit from me moving all funds to Quilter as he receives a percentage fee on a larger chunk of funds. So that is a warning sign for me as he cannot really be impartial. At the moment I can track my pensions online and I do this almost daily, they all have the relatively same performance and together average about 9.6% over the past 12 months. They are all broadly within a single percentage point of each other. I can see the following arguments to avoid consolidation altogether. 1. Tracking multiple pension funds is not actually hard to do. 2. Maybe when it comes to flexi access draw down it gets a bit more complex to get the tax free elements right to be as tax efficient over the long term but the pension companies track the percentages taken so I cannot see this as a big problem either. 3. Having multiple SIPPS allows me see how they perform against each other. Sometimes one is a little more volatile than the others but in actual fact I'd like to see more volatility on one over the other. Makes things more interesting. Of course that might change in later life so I may choose to draw more heavily on the well performing fund with more risk as I reach later life years. 4. Multiple SIPPS allow me to have funds with different levels of risk associated with the investments, so I might choose one fund to have medium risk and another quite high.  5. The big one for me though. Why, why, why would anyone trust a single SIPP provider with all their future wealth? No matter how well it is managed today and the regulations which are in place and the FSCS protection etc, I just cannot stomach the risk in a single point of failure. Why? So the IT platform could collapse making the funds inaccessible either for a short time or for months. Rogue actors inside or outside the company could arguably sabotage the platform. Yes this is highly unlikely but it can happen. Spreading the risk mitigates this. There is a very real concern. Poor management of the funds could lead to a serious downturn in the investments whether that be short term or longer term. Now the underlying funds might underperform but if that is your key worry then you'd simply change the SIPP investments. When I research reviews on the web for anything I look for the pros and cons and decide which opinions seem most sensible to reach a balanced view. However in the case of pension consolidation everyone seems to recommending consolidation, not one article about keeping them separate. Yippee cay aye (same film) and best regards, Andrew   25:05 Question 4 Hi Pete and Roger, Love the podcast. I have just completed my annual review (thanks for the checklist from earlier seasons) and was wondering if you can suggest if there is anything else I should consider or am missing to help position me better financially. For context I am 37 and married with two children under 5. Pension - I contribute to my workplace pension which is 4% and the company contributes 8% (their max). S&S ISA - I invest 5% of take home pay into two vanguard funds monthly. Children S&S ISA - I invest a small sum monthly into each child's S&S ISA, both vanguard target retirement funds for when they turn 21. Emergency Fund - I have 4 months expenses in a cash isa. Life cover - I have a private policy and 8x salary death in service benefit. Critical illness cover - I have both a private and work policy. Income protection cover - Again I have both a private and work policy, work policy is limited to 36months and private policy is to age 65. Mortgage over payments - I overpay the mortgage monthly with aim of reducing LTV and length of term when current fixed rate ends Debt - I have no major debt I think I am in a good position, but wanted to sense check in case I am missing something. Thanks and keep up the good work. Marc Annual Review: https://meaningfulmoney.tv/2023/03/01/simplify-your-annual-review/  28:22 Question 5 Hello to you both, I just wanted to say I really enjoy your podcast and your YouTube channel. My question relates to my Workplace pension. I want to move from the default lifestyled fund into a 100% global equity fund. I also have a SIPP and an ISA that are fully invested in the same global equity fund and I wanted to bring them all into line. I have a salary sacrifice scheme with a 5% employer match and I wanted to take full advantage of that by paying into a better fund. I can't fully transfer without losing the match so I have left it for too long. I am debt free including the mortgage and I have redirected my mortgage payment into my SIPP. My question is, at 47 3/4, is it too late to switch from the default fund? I'd welcome your take on that. Keep up the good work Kind regards, Matt   31:02  Question 6 Hello Pete and Roger, Really enjoy your podcast and find your advice really insightful, many thanks for what you do. My question is about pension planning and specifically about getting the balance right between pension contributions, ISAs and reducing my mortgage. I'm 46 and have saved from an early working age to build up a total pension pot amount of £510k as of today. I have prioritised my pension over other kinds of investments given the tax related attractiveness of pensions and use salary sacrifice as a way of keeping under £100k income - something important for us as a family in terms of qualifying for child nursery support, plus of course in maintaining my personal allowance. I find my job quite stressful and would like to be able to retire in 10 years at 57, or at least take on a lower paid (maybe even minimum wage) or part time role at that time for a few years until retiring fully. My assumption is that to be able to make this a reality it would be wise to build up my ISA, (which as of today totals only £15k), as a tax efficient bridge until nearer state pension age, and to minimise the need to drawdown excessively on my private pension in the early years. Assuming you concur, my question is would I be best to reduce my pension contributions to enable me to put more in my ISA?  Of course this would mean potentially losing/ reducing my personal allowance. The other factor in play here is my mortgage which is higher than I'd like at £380k. Ideally I'd like to increase my level of mortgage overpayments significantly in order to try to reduce the balance as much as possible over the next decade whilst working full time but again this will see me going over the £100k income level in order to do so.  I know I could probably clear whatever mortgage is remaining in 10 years from my tax-free pension amount but I'd like to minimise taking the tax free money in order to help the pot compound as much as possible to take me through to old age but also help support our two girls who are currently just 8 and 3 in their early lives. Your thoughts and advice would be gratefully received. Many thanks in advance and please do keep up the great work you do! Kind regards, Lee

ARCHIVE EPISODE: This is an archive episode with hosts Joe Giordano and Elena Volkova originally released in 2020.

Pool Sceners. In preparation for the Summer. It's time for Part 1 of 2 of the Pool Scene Road Trip Series with the 26th Anniversary of this week's episode, "Road Trip." One of the movies of our teenage lives whose plot is complete obsolete. Makes you feel old BUT the amount of stories we go into will make you laugh and crave for the nostalgia of 2000. Who doesn't love Stifler?!? We Draft the year 2000 for the "Pool Check" and learn some things plus we remember a media mogul on the "Final Lap." Buckle up and watch the sugar.   BUY YOUR POOL SCENE PODCAST SHIRTS AND STICKERS TODAY!!! DM US ON OUR FACEBOOK TO PURCHASE TODAY!!!   SPREAD THE WORD POOL SCENERS! JOIN THE POOL SCENERS GROUP ON FACEBOOK FOR EXCLUSIVE AND INCLUSIVE CONTENT! LIKE. COMMENT. SUBSCRIBE. RATE AND FOLLOW... APPLE. SPOTIFY. PODBEAN. PODBAY and EVERYWHERE PODCASTS ARE FOUND! LEAVE A 5 STAR REVIEW. WE READ IT ON THE AIR. YOU WIN A PRIZE!!! HAVE AN IDEA FOR AN EPISODE OR A POOL CHECK...MESSAGE US AT ONE OF THE LINKS BELOW. CONTRIBUTE TO THE SHOW ON LINKTREE!! WE GREATLY APPRECIATE IT!! Linktree: https://www.linktr.ee/poolscenepodcast Email: PoolScenePodcast@gmail.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PoolScenePodacst Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/PoolScenePodcast Discord: poolscenepodcast Threads: https://www.threads.com/poolscenepodcast TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/thepoolscenepodcast Twitch: https://twitch.tv/poolscenepodcast YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/PoolScenePodcast

Ryan joins us this week to head back to the pond for another episode of The Way Home. ABOUT: THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 4) When Nick arrives back in Port Haven, Del throws a party like old times. Alice has to keep her distance from Young Colton and Del, but tries to learn more. AIR DATE & NETWORK FOR: THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 4) May 10, 2026 | Hallmark Channel CAST & CREW OF: THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 4) Chyler Leigh as Kat Landry Evan Williams as Elliot Augustine Sadie Laflamme as Alice Dhawan Andie MacDowell as Del Landry BRAN'S THE WAY HOME (SEASON 4 EPISODE 4) SYNOPSIS Jacob is busy working at a bar as a bartender. This guy and gal come in to order an espresso martini. Jacob is like we don't do that, we're old school. After they leave, the ghost of Thomas asks him how long he's going to hide for. Alice and Elliot are talking about how Kat is still not home. He catches her up to speed about how his mom did come back at least long enough to write a letter. Just then, Nick comes in! What up old Nick! He's moving back to Port Haven! Him and Claire are moving home. Sam asks Del if she's considered his offer to move in. She says I'm not ready. I want to put that idea on pause. She seems shocked by how cool he is with that. Kat is still behind bars. Cliff shows up and is like alright, spill. Who are you? No ID, no nothing. She doesn't have time to spill before Fern shows up. Nick tells Del that he wants to buy Colton's boat and isn't gonna give up without a fight! Nick's biological father Julian shows up and he takes quite the liking to Del. Do I smell a season 4 love triangle?! Kat questions Fern about Tainted Love again and Fern insists that she's known that song for ages and still doesn't know no Tessa. She also tells Kat that she's the one who drugged her. It was the only way to protect her from the Augustine boys. For some reason, they have it out for her. Kat says well you know they're working for your fiancé Grayson. Fern doesn't believe that. Kat jumps in the pond, both of them upset with each other. Kat gets home and while talking with Elliot and Alice while looking at the bullet. She notices some engraving on it that match engravings on Grayson's gun. She is more convinced than ever that Grayson is a bootlegger. Alice and Kat are talking with Del and she's telling them how she and Colton used to throw the best parties before Alice was born. Del is like maybe we should throw a good ol' party, in honor of Nick's homecoming. Del then gets a knock on the door - there is a flower delivery...from Julian. Kat continues to try to contact Jacob but he still won't answer. So she gets back to looking at Evelyn's old files. She wants to learn more about who Grayson really is, not just what the town's history books say. Alice jumped back in the pond and sees Tessa and Vic showing up for one of Del & Colton's parties. She hears them talk about how they're getting married. Tessa sees Alice looking on from behind a tree. Alice asks her to not tell anyone that she was there or else she'll tell everyone about how she took money from Coyle's that one day. Kat finds a marriage certificate of Grayson's to someone in 1926, but it's not Fern. She also finds out that Grayson had a sister who died young. Alice can't stop herself from sneaking into the house to watch the party. Evelyn gives Del some wine but she doesn't drink it, so she suspects Del must be pregnant. In the present, it's party time! Sam finds out that Julian sent flowers and is like oh hmmm that's interesting. Back in the '80s, Fern comes in and sees Tessa looking at the family almanac and freaks out. She's like YOU'LL NEVER BE FAMILY! Colton is like she's marrying an Augustine. Fern storms off. Everyone is like wtf was that about. In the present, Kat announces to the party that she's closing down the newspaper. She is going to focus on writing a history of Port Haven. Then Julian recites some Shakespeare. Alice walks outside and tries to talk to Fern who is still freaking out. Del comes out and tells her to go to bed and then throws her wine out. Alice overhears Colton come out and ask how they're BOTH doing! They talk about waiting to tell people since it had been such a journey but Colton is convinced 1979 is their year. Alice is like uh oh...knowing that Kat wasn't born in '79. Alice runs back home and gives present day Del a big hug. There's a phone call. It's Jacob, but when she hears singing and laughing in the background, he hangs up. He tells the ghost of Thomas that they're happy, they don't need him. Later that night, Alice tells Kat about how Del was pregnant in 1979. This is news to Alice. The next day, Del and Sam talk. She tells him that he seems too chill with Julian's attention towards her. Makes her feel like he doesn't care about her. She wonders if their relationship is just a distraction from the Jacob situation. When he says if that's what she wants, she's like see you don't fight for us. He says he doesn't want to have to wonder what's going on with her. He doesn't want mystery, he wants her. Elliot surprises Jacob and asks him what's up and asks him to come home and tells him that he's being dumb. He tells Elliot to leave. Alice tells Kat more about the Fern freaking out thing and she figures out that the handwriting for 1800's Jacob's entry is the same handwriting as Tessa's letter to Elliot. AND it's the same for Fern's birth entry. The hypothesis is that Tessa time traveled back to the 1800's with Griff but he left her there which is why she was there in the '20s. They need someone from Tessa's era to come and rescue her. So Kat decides to jump again and decides to bring Nick with her to make sure she's safe. The episode ends with her on horseback. She thinks she sees Colton walking into the woods, so she tries to get her horse to follow. But the horse is freaking out heading into the woods and bucks her off and she's knocked out. Watch the show on Youtube - www.deckthehallmark.com/youtubeInterested in advertising on the show? Email bran@deckthehallmark.com Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

0:30 - CPS 12:35 - Electronic Monitoring 32:33 - Eric Church commencement address at UNC 50:20 - Remembering Rich from Indian Head Park 51:39 - Gordon Chang, author of Plan Red: China’s Project to Destroy America & The Great U.S.-China Tech War, previews Trump’s trip to China. Follow Gordon on X @GordonGChang 01:10:37 - Ted Snider, contributing editor for The American Conservative: Between Iran and a Hard Place. Ted is also a frequent contributor to Responsible Statecraft & Antiwar.com 01:35:41 - Noted economist Stephen Moore: When you’re dealing with an enemy like China you have to use every tool in your chest. Get more Steve @StephenMoore 01:48:18 - Theodore Dalrymple, retired physician and psychiatrist who worked in a general hospital and prison in England, shares details from his two newest books Agatha Christie and the Metaphysics of Murder – available 6/9 & Life at the Bottom: The Worldview that Makes the Underclass 25th Anniversary Edition – available now 02:05:58 - Josh Blackman, Centennial Chair of Constitutional Law at the South Texas College of Law Houston, weighs in on election maps and The Stunning Plan To Reverse The Supreme Court of VirginiaSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

1. God is YHWH — He simply is. “I AM WHO I AM.” — Exodus 3:14
Not becoming… just being. 2. God is one — He cannot be divided. “The Lord is one.” — Deuteronomy 6:4
Not part this… and part that.
Fully God… all the time. 3. God is self-sufficient — He needs nothing. “He Himself gives to all life…” — Acts 17:25
Everything depends on Him. 4. God is eternal — No start, no end. “From everlasting to everlasting…” — Psalms 90:2
Before all things… after all things. 5. God is unchanging — Always the same. “I, the Lord, do not change.” — Malachi 3:6
No shifting. No shadow. 6. God is sovereign — He rules all. “He does according to His will…” — Daniel 4:35
Nothing outside His control. 7. God is holy — Set apart completely. “Holy, holy, holy…” — Isaiah 6:3
No one like Him. 8. God is righteous — Always does right. “The Lord is righteous…” — Psalms 145:17
Perfect in all His ways. 9. God is transcendent — Above all things. “My thoughts are not your thoughts…” — Isaiah 55:8–9
Higher than we can fathom. 10. God is immanent — Closer than breath. “He is not far…” — Acts 17:27
Nearer than we think. 11. God is just — Makes all right. “All His ways are justice.” — Deuteronomy 32:4
Wrong will not win. 12. God is merciful — Withholds what's deserved. “Rich in mercy…” — Ephesians 2:4
Compassion over judgment. 13. God is love — Gives Himself freely. “God is love.” — 1 John 4:8
He moves toward us. 14. God is gracious — Gives undeserved favor. “By grace you have been saved…” — Ephesians 2:8
What we could never earn. 15. God is faithful — Never lets go. “His steadfast love endures forever.” — Psalms 136:1
He will not fail. 16. God is jealous — Wants your heart. “The Lord… is a jealous God.” — Exodus 34:14
He won't share you. 17. God is omnipresent — Everywhere all the time. “Where can I go…?” — Psalms 139:7
Right here… right now. 1. He simply is – He is YHWH 2. He cannot be divided – He is One 3. He needs nothing – He is Self-Sufficient (Aseity) 4. He has no beginning or end – He is Eternal 5. He stays the same – He is Unchanging 6. He rules over all – He is Sovereign 7. He is set apart – He is Holy 8. He always does right – He is Righteous 9. He is above all things – He is Transcendent 10. He is closer than breath – He is Immanent 11. He makes all things right – He is Just 12. He withholds what we deserve – He is Merciful 13. He gives Himself freely – He is Love 14. He gives undeserved favor – He is Grace 15. He never lets go – He is Faithful 16. He wants your heart – He is Jealous 17. He is everywhere all the time - He is Omnipresent

1. Spirit Airlines Bailout Debate A proposed U.S. government bailout of Spirit Airlines ($500 million for ~90% ownership) was considered but ultimately rejected. Government should not own or run private companies. Bailouts are seen as wasteful and ineffective (compared to “burning money” metaphor). Argument that free-market capitalism is more effective than government control. 2. Impact of Spirit Airlines Collapse Emphasis on human consequences, especially job losses. A retired pilot missed his final flight due to shutdown. Received a symbolic sendoff from Southwest Airlines—highlighting solidarity and empathy within the industry. Displaced workers may find jobs elsewhere, but hardship remains. 3. Tucker Carlson He spreads misinformation and makes controversial or extreme statements. Allegations that he: Attacks political figures (especially Ted Cruz). Promotes or normalizes extremist views. Makes contradictory or false claims in interviews. His credibility and audience influence are declining. Heated exchange regarding: Claims of violence and moral responsibility by public officials. Comparisons involving extremism (Nazism, Holocaust references). Sympathizes with authoritarian regimes or controversial figures. Criticizes U.S. policies and capitalism. Promotes anti-American or antisemitic narratives. 6. Pramila Jayapal and Cuban Policy Rep. Pramila Jayapal: Accused of supporting Cuba’s government by encouraging efforts to supply oil. Criticized for: Calling U.S. actions “illegal” or harmful. Describing actions against Venezuela’s Maduro as “kidnapping.” Opposing viewpoint: Siding with communist regimes over U.S. interests. 7. Anti-Communism Argument Major ideological stance: Communism is historically destructive (oppression, poverty, violence). Personal anecdote: Family experience with Cuban communism used to reinforce position. Vision proposed: A post-communist Cuba with: Free markets U.S. alignment Economic investment and tourism growth Please Hit Subscribe to this podcast Right Now. Also Please Subscribe to the 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson and The Ben Ferguson Show Podcast Wherever You get You're Podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show on Social Media so you never miss a moment! Thanks for Listening YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@VerdictwithTedCruz/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/verdictwithtedcruz X: https://x.com/tedcruz X: https://x.com/benfergusonshowYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@VerdictwithTedCruzSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is a preview of a bonus episode! You can find it, along with out five-year backlog of episodes, on our reasonably-priced patreon! This week on the Kill James Bond podcast, we watch our first modern Chinese movie! The Sun is dying, and 17 years ago the unitarty Earth Government decided that the only logical chance was to build 10,000 colossal engines and fly the Earth on a 2,500 year interstellar voyage to Proxima Centauri. Makes sense so far! But some unexpected complications arise on the journey, such as Jupiter gravitationally capturing Earth and pulling it apart.  ----- FREE PALESTINE - With the ceasefire in full effect, the media has returned to ignoring the daily atrocities in Gaza. My friend Ahmed still needs to feed his family and afford medicine. Anything you can kick in would be hugely appreciated. https://chuffed.org/project/150817-please-help-ahmed-and-his-family-get-food-drink-and-medicine And these are some more general links you can support collective efforts with! -The Palestinian Communist Youth Union is doing a food and water effort, and is part of the official communist party of Palestine https://www.gofundme.com/f/to-preserve-whats-left-of-humanity-global-solidarity -Water is Life, a water distribution project in North Gaza affiliated with an Indigenous American organization and the Freedom Flotilla https://www.waterislifegaza.org/ -Vegetable Distribution Fund, which secured and delivers fresh veg, affiliated with Freedom Flotilla also https://www.instagram.com/linking/fundraiser?fundraiser_id=1102739514947848 ----- WEB DESIGN ALERT Tom Allen is a friend of the show (and the designer behind our website). If you need web design help, reach out to him here:  https://www.tomallen.media/ ----- Kill James Bond is hosted by November Kelly, Abigail Thorn, and Devon. You can find us at https://killjamesbond.com , as well as on our Bluesky and X.com the everything app account

For the latest Whisper in the Wings from Stage Whisper, we welcomed back on the director/choreographer/founding artistic director Jessica Burr. She joined us to talk about Blessed Unrest's upcoming production of Body Unredacted. This wonderful piece of theatre was fantastic to learn all about. So hit play and get your tickets today. Blessed Unrest PresentsBody UnredactedMay 9th-17th@ The Makes' SpaceTickets and more information are available at blessedunrest.org And be sure to follow Jessica to stay up to date on all her upcoming projects and productions: blessedunrest.orgjessicaburr.net

Discovering Your BEST Colors and Style Upgrades for Your Closet and Home with Color and Style Consultant, Carla Gasser (Episode 292)   Romans 12:2 NLT “Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.”   *Transcription Below*   Carla Gasser is a Christian author, speaker, and certified color/style consultant known for helping women connect faith with everyday life, focusing on spiritual and inner beauty through decluttering the soul. Based in Ohio, she's the author of The Beauty of an Uncluttered Soul, speaks at women's events, teaches Bible studies, and offers personal style guidance, encouraging authenticity and grace in messy, real-life situations.   Carla's Website   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you walk us through exactly what you do during a color analysis?  What are your best tips for: Make-up, jewelry color, print options, and general styling tips? Now that we have this information, how can we begin to edit and curate our closet?   Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: 134 Fashion Meets Faith with Shari Braendel 251 Wintering and Embracing Holy Hygge with Jamie Erickson   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:12)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:47) Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to the Sue Neihouser team for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.   Carla Gasser is my guest today. Not only is she a color and style consultant, but she's also an author and a Bible teacher. We're going to discuss some very practical ways that you can discover what colors are uniquely best for you and then learn also how you can incorporate those into your closet and into your home. I have been wanting to do an episode like this for such a long time.   During undergrad, I was able to minor in fashion merchandising and even got to study abroad in Europe with a group of about 50 people. It was so exhilarating, and I've just always been drawn to topics like this one. In addition, what excites me about today is the way that Carla will talk about beauty both inside and out.   I can't wait to share this conversation with you. Here's our chat. Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Carla.   Carla Gasser: (1:48 - 1:51) So, great to be with you today, Laura. Thanks for inviting me.   Laura Dugger: (1:51 - 1:59) Well, I am just absolutely fascinated by your work. So, can you explain a little bit more of what you get to do?   Carla Gasser: (1:59 - 3:36) Sure. If we're talking about the outer beauty part of my business, I was trained as a certified color analysis and style consultant by Sheri Brandel, who's the owner, founder, and CEO of Style by Color. What I love most about that training is that we're independent contractors.   So, I was able to take that certification and everything I knew and already incorporated it into what my ministry was. My ministry for the past 20 years is talking about how God makes us beautiful from the inside out. But I've always had this struggle because I've loved fashion, and I've loved dressing, and I've loved outer beauty as well, which is something that God created, right?   So, a couple of years ago after I did the certification, I kind of incorporated it, and it was easier than I thought because God is the author of beauty. God is beauty. So, because I'm a Bible study teacher and I love digging into God's word, I just focused more on that.   And my book and my Bible study is called The Beauty of an Uncluttered Soul. So, those two things just ended up meshing beautifully for me. And it also helped me reach out to a wider audience, women who are interested about outer beauty and fashion and style and color and design, but they're looking for something more, and I could provide that for them too.   So, it's been wonderful. I mean, I've really enjoyed it.   Laura Dugger: (3:36 - 3:51) Well, it's such a unique pairing. And I think, is there anything you'd want to elaborate on for us as believers, as Christians? Why does it matter, both internal and external beauty?   Right.   Carla Gasser: (3:51 - 6:00) I'm speaking about this next week, and I've been starting to incorporate this in when I speak because the world has distorted beauty, right? And they have hijacked it, and they have made it into something that God never designed it to be. But if we look at the other side of it, the church, I feel, sometimes has over-spiritualized inner beauty to the exclusion of outer beauty.   So, I was caught in that tension, and I think many believing women are, well, outer beauty is shallow, inner beauty is spiritual, right? And I say it's not either or, it's and both, right? That if God created the sunsets, and all the beautiful flowers, and the things that make us post these images on Instagram of his natural beauty, then God cares about beauty.   And I love it when it says he created them in Genesis, and it was very good. The only time he uses very good is when he's talking about humans, man and woman. He created them very good.   If you go back to the Hebrew word of very good, it's tov, and it means beautiful. So, when I speak to women, I say, we are going to stop right now, and we are going to say, I was created beautiful. And a lot of women don't say that, can't say that, are afraid to say that.   And I'm here to say yes, and it's okay to express that. And I don't stand up there saying, you have to look like me, or dress like me. I want you to discover your unique style, your unique beauty.   You know, it's not a one size fits all. It's not like, well, this is the trend, so you've got to wear it. I don't want to put any more pressure on women.   I want to free women to embrace their God-given beauty, if that makes sense.   Laura Dugger: (6:01 - 6:12) Absolutely. Well, and one of the ways you do that is through color analysis, but can you walk us through like exactly what you do during a color analysis meeting?   Carla Gasser: (6:12 - 13:55) Color analysis is having a moment, isn't it? And what I'm finding is either if you're my age or older, and I'm in my late fifties, you remember seasonal color analysis, right? And when I start talking color analysis, those women will say to me, well, in the eighties, I was a winter, I was a spring, I was a summer, right?   And what am I now? And then if you talk to my daughter's generation, like twenties and thirties, they're hearing seasonal color analysis come back to, but they're watching it on Instagram and TikTok. And they're like, well, I'm a cool summer.   I'm a neutral winter. And I'm like, what is going on? This is confusing.   So, Sherry Brandel, like I said, the owner and founder of Style by Color was one of the first people who was trained in Color Me Beautiful, the seasonal color system. So, she knows it inside and out. And what she decided to do was to take the tenets, the basics of the seasonal color system, but expand it.   So, we don't, you're not going to walk out of a color analysis telling people you're a winter. We have six unique codes, and our codes are more illustrative of what you are. So, I'm a clear, okay?   There's warm, there's soft, there's cool, there's deep, and there's light. And what we're doing, and I can show a cute little chart here that helps, what we're doing is we're basing it on the seasonal color system, but we're actually giving you more colors. Because what we're doing when I say you're a soft, I am taking the softer colors, palettes, tones, and hues of summer and fall and giving them to you.   So, the other thing that we do that other systems don't do, we take into account your hair. In many of these systems or color analysis appointments, you'll see them put a white cap over a woman's head and just look at her face. We're like, what?   Your hair has so much to do with your overall coloring. I mean, I know it's hard for you to do this but imagine me platinum blonde. Wouldn't I look totally different if I was platinum blonde and this very dark hair I have?   So, we take into account your hair color. And what we're doing is we're doing tonal color analysis, meaning I am looking at your major color dominant characteristics. Like I just said, your hair color, your eye color, your skin tone.   And now I'm not trying to determine whether you're cool or warm or neutral. That got the Color Me Beautiful system into like 24 color codes because they took every season and they broke it down like six ways and it became complicated and crazy. What we're doing is I'm comparing my skin tone to my hair to my eyes.   And we give you a rating of one to five, meaning, and it's really good if we're both on camera here, people are going to see this right away. I'm a five. I am the highest contrast level.   Can we know why? I've got really dark hair and really light skin and light eyes. So, I'm a five.   Now we look at you. You're not a five. You are a lower contrast level because your hair and your skin tone when you turn are pretty similar.   And your eyes kind of are in the middle there. So, I would put you at a three or a two. And that contrast level helps me determine your color code.   Not only that, it helps me determine what prints and patterns you should wear, what jewelry you should wear. I mean, what makeup you should wear? So, that is how we differ.   And I feel that learning the tonal part of this and understanding contrast level was a game changer for me. And that's what I teach my clients. That once you know that it's easy for me to put you in a color code.   I also use these capes behind me that help during a color analysis. But I also do things like I, you know, use patterns. You know, this is a high contrast level pattern.   So, this is going to look good on someone like me, black and white. If I put a black and white on you, you're going to look like a floating head. It's not cohesive.   But what you're going to look better in is something like this because this is medium contrast. Okay, so we do that. We also talk about pop colors.   Everybody, you know, will say, well, don't take red away from me. Red's my favorite color. Don't take blue away from me.   I wear blue all the time. I'm like, I'm not taking hardly any colors away from you. What I'm teaching you is when you go into a store and you want to know what red, well, my red and your red are very different, right?   So, I'm not taking red away from you. I'm just trying to guide you towards the right red. I'm not taking pink away from you.   Oh, one color code I do. Pink away from you. I'm just telling you, you know, I need this pink.   This is my pink, right? That's my yellow. So, that's what we do.   We break it all down. When I do mini color analysis, I'm usually in a boutique and I love working with boutique owners because then I can help people shop right after. But it's a 15-minute quick appointment.   I give you digital downloads of your colors. Like I said, every color codes gets 35 plus colors. And if you have them on your phone, when you're out shopping, you're scrolling and going, oh, I can use this.   Oh, I can use this. Not only in our digital collection, we give you the trending colors twice a year for fall and winter and spring and summer. Because we both know that colors, you know, have moments, right?   Pantone picks their color of the year, which happens to be white this year, which I'm like, that's a little counterintuitive because I don't know that white's a color, but anyways, it's a neutral. So, you have them on your phone and then you can decide and they update. I also have color cards for old school people like me that want the physical representation, and we sell those as well.   And you can put those in your purse, and you can use them. But I tell people, use them for your nail color, use them for your makeup, use them even when you're decorating your home. A lot of people gravitate to the colors that they look good in, and you can use them in other ways or even pairing colors together.   How do we do that? So that is a mini one. And in that one, I'm just giving you your best neutrals, your colors to avoid, your jewelry choices.   But when you come to my home and I do do it, I have a studio in my home, it's an hour and a half to two hour and we go through it all. You know, we go through it all. When I go into your closet, that's a whole different thing.   And I do ask that people have a color analysis before I do a closet edit. Because once we know your colors, then organizing your closet, creating and curating a capsule wardrobe becomes so much easier.   Laura Dugger: (13:57 - 14:08) Okay, we'll have to follow up on that. But first, I'm just so curious, which color person does not get pink, the warm, warm, warm.   Carla Gasser: (14:08 - 17:23) So, those are people usually with Auburn red hair, you know, they're in that category. So, they get all the spices. And they're the opposite of someone like me, like I can't wear anything with like a gold, yellow undertone.   You know, I can't really wear orange, the orange, I have one orange in my palette, believe it or not, but it's super bright. It's not an orange I probably would wear. One of the comments that someone made to me that said they were afraid to get a color analysis because they thought I would take too much away from them.   Right? They would I would take away their favorite colors; I would tell them they don't look good in things they look good in. Most people, it's so interesting, because sometimes when you come to my home, I ask you to bring some clothes with you, like bring something that everyone says when you walk in a room, wow, you look great in that.   And bring something that you don't ever reach for in your closet, because you're not sure of. And people are closer than they think to knowing their, their right colors. Sometimes I kind of shake them up a bit.   But I give them so much that some people say, well, I can't possibly wear all these colors. There's 36 colors here. And I try to tell people focus on your neutrals, because people have different neutrals, right?   Focus on your neutrals and then add one to two pop colors per season. Because if you try to wear every color in there, that you know, your closet is going to be very cluttered and very overwhelming. But it really helps you declutter and focus because there are stores I walk into now that I literally make one loop and I walk right back out.   Because they're all these light colors and palettes and warm tones. And I call it cafe latte dressing that you would look gorgeous in. But for me, so why would I waste my time in that store?   Right, I walk in real quick. And I've taught women how to shop, right? Because how many of us were taught how to shop, we go in, we go to the sale rack, we go in, we look for something that's trending, we go in, and we bring it home.   And we stand in front of our closet every morning and say what, I have nothing to wear. Right? I have nothing to wear because our closets are full of things that don't match with each other, that we don't feel good in, that we might have bought because we thought it was a deal.   But we don't know if they look good on us. We don't know if they work on our body shape. We don't know how to put them together with what we already have.   So, less really is more. I'm not trying to get people to go out and spend thousands of dollars on a whole new wardrobe. I ask, especially in a closet edit, we're going to work first with what you have.   And then you might have to go out and buy one or two key pieces. But really my last closet edit, she had to buy three things at the end. That was it.   To make over, we talked about, we ended up making her at least 35 different outfits with what she already had and going out and buying three pieces. That was it.   Laura Dugger: (17:24 - 20:14) We'll come back shortly after a brief message from our sponsor. With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser team is a RE-MAX agent of Central Illinois, and she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors. For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831.   And you can ask her any real estate questions. Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer. When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home.   And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision. Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process. This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team.   The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market, but Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell. She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process, and she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. We kept saying she's thought of everything, and Sue's continued generosity was astonishing.   I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home and she was knocking on the door dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery. Our daughters also loved getting to know Ms. Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home. So, whether you're looking to buy a home for the first time or looking to upgrade or downsize or making the big decision to move to an assisted living from your home of many years, Sue will be there to help you navigate the big emotions and ensure the process is smooth and stress-free and that the new doors to be unlocked are ready and waiting for more memories to be made.   So, call her today at 309-229-8831 or visit her website at sueneihouser.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Okay, so that also makes me curious when you talk about the colors that you put together.   Yes. Do you use a color wheel, or do you have any practical ways that we can learn how to put different colors together in our home or in our closet?   Carla Gasser: (20:14 - 22:34) Right, that goes back to the contrast level that we talked about, and it also goes back to body shape. So, contrast level is can you wear, you know, high contrast prints or outfits? Like I can wear black and white.   Would I tell you to do that? Probably not. So, when you know what your contrast level is, that not only informs your prints, your patterns, your colors, it informs your outfits.   Here's a quick tip about dressing for your body shape. All right, we talk about inner column versus outer column. So, if you carry your weight in your belly and this is a, you know, I always tell women when I'm speaking to them, place your hands on the one area of yourself that you wish you could camouflage, right?   And some of us go to our hips. Some of us, we all have it, right? But if that is your area, your belly is your area, and I like to camouflage it.   What you want to create is an inner column. How do you create an inner column? So, if you were looking at my outfit right now, an inner column would be that this blue here, I would wear the same color pants.   I've got an inner column. And then I put this jacket over it because when you look at that inner column, there's no waist definition. There's no, it's just an inner column.   It makes me look taller. It makes me look thinner. It, you know, draws the eye up to the face.   We always want to draw the eye up to the face. Now, if your problem area is more your hips and you want to camouflage that, but you've got a smaller waist, then you do an outer column. Whereas with me, again, I keep the blue shirt. I tuck it in, but I wear black pants because black and black.   So, those are just two quick little tips that people could take away based on, you know, an inner column also works well for people who are large chested, who want to kind of camouflage this part, you know, who have kind of a roundness here and outer column again, works for people who also maybe have a more of a pear shaped or, um, not only pear shaped, but like an hourglass figure, an outer column would work better for, does that help?   Laura Dugger: (22:34 - 22:53) Does that make sense? This is so helpful. And I'm wondering, are there any principles that apply to everyone specifically?   I mean, even thinking first when it's summer and when somebody has a tan or when they naturally start graying, how does that work? Does their color change?   Carla Gasser: (22:54 - 25:38) Yes, it does. It does. And we can customize color decks and color codes.   So, I have a few women who are transitioning to gray. They're not there yet, but they're in between. So, what I'm going to do is pull out from their deck, anything that is yellowing or has that warmer undertone and keep her in the cool until, and I also say to people, if you come to me and like you're this one day and you say, Carol, I'm going to go red.   I'm going to be a redhead. I will color code you again for free because that's how much I believe in the system. And that's how much I believe your hair matters for your color code.   So, if you change your color code and you're my color and you say, you know, I'm going to go platinum. Yeah. I just think it'll be fun. Come back. We will. So, you're right.   Your hair has a lot to do with it now in terms of tanning, right? Same thing. I would probably just direct you.   I wouldn't change your color code. I would just direct you to certain colors in your, in your color code more than others. If you're darker or lighter, does that make sense?   That does that's helpful. So, it's perfectly customizable. And that's the whole thing about when I tell people, when I have you as a client, you can go around and tell your friends and brag that you have a stylist because you do, you know, you can text me, you, I get a lot of texts from dressing rooms, women standing there in the mirror, taking the picture, going Carla, does this work?   Does this not work? Do these shoes work? That's what I'm here for.   I want an ongoing relationship. I don't like, I mean, I do one and dones. Okay.   If I'm in a boutique or something and you come in from out of town, you can still contact me. I do virtual, I do, you know, all these kinds of things, but I love having a client as an ongoing relationship because you might change your body, change your season of life, change. You were working now you're not, or you're going back to work, and you haven't been working.   All those things affect what you're going to wear and how you're going to wear and where you shop. I just had a woman who, you know, broke her foot and she's in a boot and she is so upset about this because we just did her closet edit. We just started thinking, well, what shoes should I wear?   So, we've been working together to modify her outfits. We've been working together to get her to a place where she still feels comfortable, but she has to wear this boot. Okay.   We can work around that. We can do that. You know, and I have people who go on vacation.   I have no idea what to pack for vacation. I could only have a carry on. We're going to create a capsule wardrobe for your vacation.   We can do that.   Laura Dugger: (25:39 - 26:09) It is crazy to think of how much this plays into our lives every day. And so, once you learn this, I think it can save you time and money. I'm also thinking of one other principle.   We always hear about the little black dress, but the funny thing is black is the absence of all colors. So, I remember studying that black near the face, even if that's in your palette, that that's not recommended. So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, Carla.   Carla Gasser: (26:09 - 28:18) Yes. I would say black near the face only works for a few of us. You're right.   And I'm one of them, right? Because of this high contrast, but I still like to break it up with color myself. I have an interesting story for you.   I had a friend who really, she should not wear black by her face at all. She is a soft color code. She got invited to a wedding and everyone had to wear black.   She freaked out. I just got my colors done. What am I going to do?   I have to go to this. I said, first of all, we have to respect the bride and groom. Yes.   This is what you want and whatever. What we did, though, is we bought her a huge, chunky leopard necklace. It broke it up and she bought leather leopard shoe shoes and wore the black.   So, there are ways. And I say to people, when I take away black from you and you have all these black clothes at home, I'm like, I don't want you to donate everything to goodwill, but we're going to think of ways to break this up. And one of the ways we break it up near the face is a larger necklace, a scarf, a third piece like this, a vest or a cardigan.   There are ways to do it without going home and saying, oh my word, I have to throw everything away. And then I'll try to redirect those people. Okay, now that you know your neutrals are no longer black, there are a lot of other great neutrals out there.   Dark brown, gray, navy. So, now when you go shopping, don't throw all your black away, but start incorporating other neutrals into your wardrobe that are softer for you and work better for you. And like you asked before, too, are there some colors that everyone can wear?   And I would, I could give you one. There's a couple, but one color that is kind of the universal color that everybody has in about the same shade is teal. It's kind of the couch you're sitting on.   If I read it correctly in your, on the video, teal is kind of a universal color. So, that's something.   Laura Dugger: (28:19 - 28:21) I had no idea. I love that.   Carla Gasser: (28:22 - 28:22) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (28:22 - 28:35) And have you ever even studied the psychology related to colors? For instance, how we can perceive people differently when they are dressed in their best color?   Carla Gasser: (28:36 - 30:08) No, I haven't personally studied that, but I have seen women. Like I just got a testimony the other day, I was asking some of my clients, like, what would you say? And I had this young mom who said, you know, it wasn't low self-esteem that kept me dressing this way.   It was apathy. And I thought that was a really strong word. And she walked into church and she actually sings at church.   So, she's up on stage and we just talked about a few tweaks and she's like everybody said something to me after. And they said, “You sang louder, you were glowing, you were shining.” And she goes, “I felt I didn't do anything different, but just wear what we talked about and changed my clothes.”   So, I do think people notice, I think that there is a radiance that comes from within. Not only are you more confident, but I do think again, it highlights your face. And when your face is highlighted, people are attracted to that, you know?   And I always make a big point when I'm out and about doing my grocery shopping, going to the drugstore, going to the post office, and I see someone wearing the right color. I don't tell her I'm a color now. I don't go through all that.   I just said, you know, you look fabulous in that color. And I'm like, give me a big smile if they're not smiling. And they're just like, well, who is this woman?   I go, and they walk out like two inches taller.   Laura Dugger: (30:09 - 31:30) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?   Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.   Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share.   We appreciate you. Well, I love that you've mentioned Sherri Brandel because she's the one who founded Style by Color, but she was also a previous guest on The Savvy Sauce. So, I'll make sure and link to her fantastic episode.   And I love her testimony. But with you, Carla, at Style by Color, do you ever keep records of the percentage of people who make up each category, or have you even noticed patterns of which ones are most or least common? Yes.   Carla Gasser: (31:31 - 33:10) I think it depends on where you live because when we get all together for consultants, because we do have continuing education, I'm part of their professional development program. So, I'm trained every month in something new, like whether it's hair or makeup or trends or just different things. But we get together once a year for our conference and we talk about where we live.   It seems to me, and I live in Northeast Ohio, kind of between Cleveland and Akron, a lot of the women in my area seem to be softs. There's a lot of soft. I do a lot of soft.   Very rarely do I do someone like me. Now, if you go down, I think in my family, I'm Italian. Most of my Italian relatives are deeps, not as clear as me because they have more of the olive skin.   For some reason, I got this very light skin. I do tan, but I don't tan on my face for some reason. You notice my arms are darker than my face.   So, I do think it kind of runs that way, kind of where you live and maybe a little bit by ethnicity or background. However, I have said to people, because we do this tonal color analysis, there can be people who are clear that don't look exactly like me because what am I doing? I'm comparing their hair to their skin, to their eyes.   I'm not comparing them to me. So, I think that's what makes this unique and makes it very customizable for people. Yes.   Laura Dugger: (33:11 - 33:19) Makes sense. Okay. And this may sound a little overly dramatic, but how have you seen this process improve someone's life?   Carla Gasser: (33:20 - 35:30) Oh, wow. I wish I could read you. I mean, I have some testimonials here that I was just looking through last night and to get prepared for this.   One person said, when I looked at my closet, I felt overwhelmed. I kept buying new things, but none of them seemed to solve my problem. So, many great pieces, but never seemed to be able to pull things together.   Carla came to the rescue. Her instructions on preparing for a meeting were concise and clear. And our 90-minute session flew by.   By the time we were finished, I was feeling so excited about all the new possibilities. Now I find it so easy to step into my closet, a place that once scared me. Take a quick look and decide what to wear for any occasion.   Before, I just had my colors for shopping, but now I have the missing piece of fabric and fit and how to put it all together. So, that's one of them. Another one said thanks for being such an encouragement to me, for showing me how to dress.   And so, I feel beautiful. I'm thankful that I've never struggled with self-esteem the way many women do. But for me, I had become very apathetic, knowing I could probably do better, but not really caring or getting frustrated when I tried, when I tried didn't work the way I thought it should.   You have helped me to see what many times I've picked close to the right colors or I've settled for good enough when I could have added pieces to make it beautiful. Thank you for listening and obeying what God asked you to step out into this vocation to make women feel beautiful from the inside out. You've been a blessing.   So, I do think it has changed women. I have had women say I spend less money. I spend less time.   I feel more confident at work. I feel more confident like she said at church, you know, being in front of someone. So, yeah, I think it makes a measurable difference in people's lives.   If they apply it, you know, I think there are women who are one and done that come in, they just want to know what their colors are, and they walk out and you know, but even that does add something to your life, I think. So, yes, I do think it makes a difference. It's definitely personally made a difference in my own life.   Laura Dugger: (35:31 - 35:35) So, anything you'd want to elaborate on that how it's made a difference in your own life.   Carla Gasser: (35:36 - 38:10) I think I had gotten into kind of similarly to the testimonial I just read of someone of just, you know, not caring. You know, I had four kids at home. I was running everywhere.   I wanted what was comfortable. I wanted what was quick. And what happened was I had gotten into this really gray phase, not realizing that the gray was really reflecting how I was feeling on the inside.   And after I was, I went to a speaker's convention, because I'm also a speaker and Sherry actually did my colors. She was at this event. And so, I met her in person, and we have become great friends since I came home and I started changing it and I have three boys and a girl.   Who do you think noticed that I was changing before? It was my boys. And my one son said to me, “I love that you're wearing brighter colors.   It reminds me of when I was younger, that you always wore colors like that when I was little. Like I always remember my mom showing up and she was in and he goes, and you haven't done that in a long time. And I thought there's something more like we were talking before about the psychology.   I would also feel like it was a spiritual thing too, for me that I had kind of just settled in a lot of ways. And I think women think that they're hiding in bigger clothes or in drab colors because they don't want to be seen or they don't feel their worth or they have shame, they have regret, they have all these things. And I used to also when I would dress up and go places, have you ever had people say to you, why are you so dressed up?   Why are you wearing that? And it would make me shrink. It would make me feel awful.   Like I'm not trying to show you up. I'm not trying. I just, this is what I like to wear.   And I changed that total attitude around. And we would go out with the group of women. They're like, there you are, Carlo.   What are you wearing that for? And I said, you know what? I'm your fancy friend.   Call me your fancy friend. I'm going to dress up like your fancy friend. And when we go places, this is what I feel like.   And I said, and if you want to wear sweats, I don't care. That's what makes you comfortable. That makes you feel good about yourself.   But I feel like sometimes we dress for other women and other people before we dress for ourselves.   Laura Dugger: (38:11 - 39:13) Well, that's really good. And even how you mentioned there's a spiritual component. I think of Jesus teaching on so many object lessons and that he would use something external to talk about the internal spiritual condition.   And it reminds me of another guest, Jamie Erickson, who wrote the book on holy Hygge, just on that concept of our inner life will be reflected outwardly as well. And last piece, just with the psychology, I do remember one thing with the psychology of color, just that when somebody is in their best palette, that we naturally trust them more. And so, it's just unique, all the things that we're probably unaware of, but this really does matter.   Absolutely. And so then beyond just our clothing, can you share some more of your best tips? I'm thinking makeup and jewelry, colored print options, and just your general styling tips.   Carla Gasser: (39:14 - 43:53) I think one other demonstration that I do a lot, too, that I do with women is I think we undervalue the importance of accessories, that you could take a very simple outfit and change it up with accessories. And it's not buying more clothes. It's just taking things off, adding things.   And so, I went to a women's group here in town and I wore a basic jumpsuit. And I told them, this is how I would wear this jumpsuit if I was just running out and about. And I put tennis shoes on.   I put a simple necklace on, simple handbag, one out. And they're like, great. I said, okay, now I'm going to meet some friends for lunch.   Same jumpsuit. Put sandals on, put a little cardigan on, put a thicker necklace on. So, I was teaching them, you could take one outfit and style it three to four or five different ways just by accessories.   So, that's one tip. I would say don't neglect or overlook accessories. The other thing is, know what accessories work for your frame.   If you've ever seen a woman who's like 5'10", wearing a purse this big, it doesn't work. Likewise, someone who's 5'2", wearing one of those huge canvas tote bags, you've got to match your accessories to your frame. Right?   So, if you're, you know, 5'2 and under, your accessories need to be more delicate and smaller to fit you. Likewise, like someone was saying, but, you know, I love those statement necklaces that you wear. And I'm only five, you know, my mom is tiny.   She's only like 5'1", 5'2". And I'm like, what you can do if you want to achieve that effect is layering your necklaces. They're all tiny and delicate.   But if you put three of them together, you're giving the illusion of having something more, but it's not overpowering you, something like that. So, I think those two tips that women, you know, can overlook is accessorize. And one tip that Sherry gave that revolutionized it for me, and I didn't believe her when she first told me this tip, and yet she stands by it.   And now I stand by it. When we were growing up, my mom said that your shoes must match your purse or your handbag. That was a rule, right?   Sherry does not believe in that rule. She says your shoes must match your hair. So, I thought about that because I wear all different color shoes, but I had gone to a wedding that summer and I wore a red dress to the wedding.   It's one of my best colors, right? But that was the time when those nude shoes were really popular. You know what I'm talking about?   They were kind of patent and nude, and they were, you know, rounded toe, high heel. And I thought, well, I'm not going to the prom. So, I'm not going to buy red shoes, right?   I need to buy a neutral shoe to go with a red dress. So, I went back and looked at a picture of myself in that red dress standing next to my husband in those shoes. And it looked like I was floating.   I took that dress on, but again, I put black shoes on, and I took a picture of myself and I put them side by side because I needed proof. I need visual proof. Totally different look.   Because what she says is when you're wearing all one color, a lot of times one color and outfit, your shoes and your hair frame your outfit. And I can show you picture after picture where it works. And when I speak to women, I put those pictures up there and they're like, and I'm like, I know, isn't that crazy.   And she also says your handbag should match your hair, your everyday handbag. Nine times out of 10, I asked this question, if I gave you $500 and you could go buy a really nice designer handbag, what color would you buy? 75 to 80% of women say what?   Probably black, black, right? They all say black. And then I'll show them pictures of how much better a woman looks pulled together when her everyday handbag, that doesn't mean you can't wear a pink handbag or, you know, to spice up your outfit.   If it's part of your accessory look, that's not saying that, but your everyday standard handbag that you're going to invest money in, that's going to be with you for several years should match your hair.   Laura Dugger: (43:54 - 44:04) Wow. That is so interesting to me. And I think it would be fun to do pictures, the before and after, and just see that sometimes those visuals are helpful.   Carla Gasser: (44:04 - 44:12) They help a lot, but you'll start noticing it now or go online and start looking. I'll tell the women to do that and they'll, they'll be blown away.   Laura Dugger: (44:13 - 44:21) Well, and now that we do have all of this information, how can we begin to edit or curate our closet?   Carla Gasser: (44:23 - 47:24) So, when I do a closet edit, I do give them some homework to do before I get there. And I ask them to go through their closet and do, um, for three to four things. First thing is pull out anything that you're going to donate or consign.   Okay. If you haven't worn it in two years, if it's stained, if it's, you know, that might be a throwaway, but you're going to make those piles, give away, throw away, and then maybe consign if it's something really good. And, you know, this is also based on first having a color analysis.   Like I said before, if you don't have a color analysis, it's very hard for me to go into your closet. Okay. So, that's one thing you do next thing.   We pull up anything that is seasonal from your closet. If you're not wearing it now, because you live where I live and you're not wearing sleeveless or shorts or whatever, put that in a bin, put it away. The other thing is put away a trendy.   Okay. Skinny jeans were a thing, and everybody loved their skinny jeans. Do I think skinny jeans might come back?   They might, if they, if you still like them, if they still fit you, put them in a bin, put your trending kind of clothes, long cardigans aren't in right now. How many long cardigans do you have? You probably have five, you probably have six and you probably love them.   It's okay. I'm not telling you to throw them away, put them in a bin and we're going to store those someplace else. So, there are certain things that you could start doing.   The other thing that I think is very helpful is I line my closet up with my neutrals first, and then my colors, you know, white, black and gray and Navy are my neutrals. I lined those up. Then I start lining up my colors and my patterns.   So, I think that's a very helpful way because, you know, putting outfits together becomes a lot easier because I pick a neutral, I pick a pattern, I pick a color, you know, kind of like you're probably too young for animals where the kids had to match the tags. When we were little, it was like, we went to the store and there was a, you know, a clothing line called grant or animals. And like, you match the monkey with the monkey, the monkey had on the top, the tag was like a monkey and the tag in the bottom.   There you go. There's your clothes. So, I mean, there are systems.   I also love boutiques. And I'm noting that noticing this more about boutiques that are color coded. There's a boutique in my town that you walk in, and she's got all the beige and neutral colors here.   She is all black and white here. She has all her blues here. And wow is easy to shop when they do that for you.   And I think that's coming back. I'm seeing that more, like I said, in independently owned boutiques. I don't think you're going to find that as much.   But even I went into the loft the other day and they had their clothes kind of in a color. So, that I think helps too. That helps a lot.   Laura Dugger: (47:25 - 47:37) That's a great tip for organizing our closet. And is there any edit that you would want to make to our makeup bag or addition that you just think everybody should try?   Carla Gasser: (47:39 - 48:58) We work with a company that does lipstick and lip gloss by color code. And it's called Lipstick Boss Beauty. And I sell that as well.   And I think women underestimate the power of a lip. Now, because I'm so pale, I absolutely need it. You know what I mean?   But even for people who aren't pale, she sells them by color code. And I have samples with me, and I always have women try it on. And they are so surprised at how it brings the look together.   You know, I know a lot of women are intimidated by a lot of makeup, eye makeup, whatever. But I say if you put on a lip gloss, a good foundation and blush and mascara, you don't have to worry about the rest if you're not into it. If you're into it, great, go.   But I also said when you go to Sephora or Ulta or even your local drugstore that has a lot of good makeup that you probably can use, bring your colors with you. That will help you pick out a blush. That will help you pick out a lip color.   But yeah, I think women totally underestimate just a simple lip gloss, tinted lip gloss or lipstick. I think it really pulls things together.   Laura Dugger: (48:59 - 49:11) And I love, I love that idea and just all of your offerings. So, if anybody wants to give this a try, can you share more about the resources that you have available?   Carla Gasser: (49:12 - 51:51) Yeah, I would think that the best place I would send them to is my website, which is just my name, www.carla, with a C, Gasser, G-A-S-S-E-R. And on there, there's a page that has all of my services. And one of the things on there that I keep telling women to take advantage of, you could book a free 15-minute consultation with me.   I do that for everyone. If you just don't even know where to start, and you're like, I just want to learn more. I just want to know how I could do this.   Also, my first client ever was from Canada, virtually. When I first got, you know, she had followed me for my faith resources and all of that. And when she saw I got certified, she reached out to me, and I can do virtual appointments.   If you send in your photo to me, we have a whole system of plugging it in and working through it. And we put a whole presentation, I create a customized presentation for you, and I send it to you. But we talk like this, but you know, I take your photo and I put it into kind of capes like this, but they're digital.   And we see, and so yes, but I would start with looking at my page and then booking that free 15-minute consultation to just ask me, you know, where do I start? What do you offer? And everything's listed there.   So, I also, if you want to be part of my email list, you could sign up online on that same page and you get access to a free style personality quiz. Because style personality, we talked about it a little bit earlier that you don't have to dress like me. We have four style personalities that we kind of curate, but I created a quiz so that you can kind of answer these questions and figure out, oh, I lean more towards this.   And once we do that, then I can tell you more what places to shop because I'm not going to send someone who is more of a casual, a natural chic to a Chico's. That doesn't fit their style. They would probably go to J.   Joe, you know? So, it's kind of that kind of a thing. So, that's just a fun little freebie that I give away if you want to sign up.   And my email list, I usually, my newsletter goes out almost every Tuesday or Wednesday with different tips. I give you links to things. I give you examples.   I'm really good about showing you pictures of things. We talk about trends. We talk about all kinds of things. So, yeah. And that's just free to be part of my newsletter.   Laura Dugger: (51:52 - 52:11) That is incredible. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode, which you can find on your podcast platform. Or if you go to thesavvysauce.com under show notes, you can find all of the links for today's episode. And are you willing to share, what are those four? Did you say personality?   Carla Gasser: (52:12 - 53:39) Yes. One is called natural chic. The next one is called classic modern.   The third one is style fashionista. And the fourth one is creative original. So, I ask you a ton of questions based on like, what do you feel comfortable in or what fabrics you like?   And based on that, you add up, you know, kind of, and if you're mostly A's, you're this, if you're mostly B's, you're this, C's, D's. So, it just helps you. Because again, I think that is a missing piece for a lot of women.   They don't know what their style is. And so, they look at someone like, oh, I love that. But why doesn't that look good on me?   I go, well, does it feel like you? Well, if it doesn't feel like you, then that's why you're not comfortable in it. You know?   And like I said, you know, I like to push the envelope a little bit more. I am not going to be, you know, a classic modern. I am more of a style fashionista or creative original.   I mean, I found this, this is like an old, in a boutique in Italy of all places. If you see, it's kind of like got these raw edges because they took a man's old suit jacket, cut it, and then put all these pearls on it. I mean, you're not going to find that.   And not every person wants to wear something like crazy as that, but I love it. You know? So that's my personality.   But someone else is just like, I just love silk and linen and good cotton. And I like to feel comfortable. Great. I can recommend tons of clothes for you and tons of places to shop.   Laura Dugger: (53:40 - 53:43) I love that. Well, and I think that piece is so fun.   Carla Gasser: (53:43 - 53:44) Thank you.   Laura Dugger: (53:44 - 54:09) And it's so great to see how you dress everything to your personality and you reflect beauty inside and out. But Carl, I think you may already be aware we're called the Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Carla Gasser: (54:11 - 55:06) I would say my Savvy Sauce is allowing God to transform me from the inside out and make me beautiful. I love the clothes. I love the fashion and the colors.   I've talked to you about it for over an hour. I could keep talking about it. It is a passion of mine, but if there was a secret Savvy Sauce to that, it would be inviting God in to transform me and make me beautiful from the inside out, because there are a lot of beautiful people out there, right?   But if they're not reflecting God's beauty, then we're missing it. And when I want people attracted to me, it's so that I can share with them the hope that's within, not so I can tell them where to get the best shirt or wear the best color. I want to ultimately bring them the hope of Jesus.   That's why I do it. So, that's my Savvy Sauce.   Laura Dugger: (55:07 - 55:40) Well said, Carla. You are a beautiful woman with a beautiful combination of giftings. I just love that you're a Bible teacher and a color analysis or consultant.   And that's in addition to the many other roles that you hold. But practical chats really do help us to live intentionally. And you've done that for us today.   So, thank you for sharing your fascinating career with us. I love your expertise and I really enjoyed getting to host you. So, thank you for being my guest.   Carla Gasser: (55:40 - 56:05) And thanks for doing what you're doing. I love stuff like this. This is great.   And it's bringing women together. And like you said, it's giving them that practical knowledge that we all need and can look for. There's so many places that you can go to, and not all of that knowledge is uplifting or leading you in the right direction.   So, I'm thankful for people like you who do what you do as well. So, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (56:05 - 59:22) Thank you. Appreciate that. One more thing before you go.   Have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.   But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.   So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much.   He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. That is good news.   Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what he has done for us.   Romans 10 9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So, would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place.   I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity.   In Jesus name we pray. Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him.   You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called the Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned.   So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone. Say it out loud.   Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged.   Luke 15:10 says, "in the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with.   You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.  

A conversation with Nora on preparation, strength, recovery, and redefining what better means. Nora is back—this time in the middle of recovery.Recorded from her bed, sharing a mic and space with her dog, Klaus, this conversation is exactly what it sounds like—unfiltered, real, and happening right in the middle of it.The last thing she remembers before surgery? Her gurney being run into a wall. And somehow… that's a pretty accurate entry point into what healing has actually felt like.Somewhere between Adrienne's widow brain and Nora still on pain meds… this conversation unfolds the way real ones do—imperfect, a little scattered, and completely honest. They also talk about the parts no one really prepares you for:What breathing feels like after surgery.Finding strength when your body has limits.What it takes to let people support you when you're used to being the one to support.This isn't a before-and-after story. It's a conversation about being in the middle of where healing is messy, slow, and not always visible. If you're going through something—or supporting someone who is—this episode will meet you there.If this episode resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who might need it… or send us a message.Because the truth is… we didn't plan for this—but we're here.Click here to watch Dr. Gil Hedley's video on Fascia and Stretching - The Fuzz SpeechNora's Collagen Pudding Click Here for Full RecipeEasy to digest, higher in MCT fats from coconut milk, and collagen peptides for gentle protein absorption. Designed to support healing without taxing the system.Makes 4 servings10 tbsp chia seeds1 cup oat milk4 scoops unflavored collagen peptides1.5–1.75 cups full-fat coconut milk2 tbsp raw honey2 tsp vanillaMix, chill 2–4 hrs (or overnight), divide into 4.Send us Fan MailFor those who have reached out asking how to support Adrienne and her family during this time, click here to donate. There is absolutely no expectation—just sincere gratitude.We Didn't Plan For This Special SeriesThis series exists because so many of you reached out and said, “I didn't plan for this either.”If you've gone through a diagnosis, a loss, a life change, a career shift, a divorce, becoming a caregiver, moving, starting over — we want to hear your story.You don't have to have it figured out. You just have to be willing to share honestly.How Yoga Changed My Life a PodcastSend Us Your Stories!If you have a story about how yoga, meditation, breath work, journaling, or movement changed your life, we want to hear from you! These podcasts are really about the same thing — how people move through the seasons of life they didn't plan for, and what helps them along the way.If you'd like to be on the show or share your story:  Fill out our guest form or email us at yogachanged@gmail.com Follow us on TikTok:https://www.tiktok.com/@yogachanged...

What if the thing you struggle with most could become your greatest strength? In this episode, I sit down with Dennis Szymanski, a semiconductor engineer who has lived with a stutter his entire life and learned to manage it through a powerful mix of science, self-awareness, and holistic living. Dennis shares how his journey through speech therapy, stress management, and personal growth shaped both his mindset and his career in nanoscale engineering and compound semiconductors. You will hear how early support, resilience, and curiosity helped him move from struggling to speak to confidently presenting, creating, and even writing a children's book. I believe you will find this conversation inspiring as it shows how challenges can guide you toward purpose, clarity, and an unstoppable mindset. Highlights: 00:10 Learn how early support and environment shape confidence and long term growth 09:43 Understand what it means to live with a stutter and manage it daily 11:10 Discover why the root cause of stuttering is still not fully understood 35:07 Learn how speech therapy has shifted toward treating the whole person 47:32 Understand how stress directly affects speech and performance 56:01 Discover how creativity and purpose come together through writing and innovation About the Guest: Hello everyone! My name is Dennis Szymanski, and I was born and raised on Long Island, New York. Over the course of my life, I have moved 11 times up and down the East Coast of the U.S., meeting many people and having amazing experiences, all the while working on my relationship with my stutter. I currently embrace my inner beach bum and reside in a sleepy North Carolina beach town with my girlfriend Samantha and Lennie the turtle. I have spent the better part of my academic and professional career in the semiconductor industry. I hold a Ph.D. in Materials Science and Engineering from North Carolina State University and currently work as a Product Engineer for a U.K. semiconductor manufacturing firm. In my personal life I enjoy playing disc golf, reading, playing the trumpet, yoga, entrepreneurship, public speaking, and any water sport you can imagine. The beach has always been, and forever will be, my home, my place of peace and solitude, a place to "Be As You Are". As a stutterer, I have practiced the physical art of communication ever since I have been able to talk. As a trumpet player, I understand the power of controlled breath. As an Engineer, I always strive to dig deeper. As a communicator, I believe it is all about connecting with people. As a human being, I endeavor to live a holistic life, where each facet compliments the others. My stutter made me a better engineer, just like my understanding of controlled breath as a trumpet player has made me a better communicator. I find myself to be a lifelong learner, believing that there is room for constant improvement even if, somewhat ironically, the area for necessary improvement is my (in)ability to rest and recharge. I love to travel and take much of my inspiration from the world around me. A change of scenery, pace, environment, and/or people is almost always welcomed in my life. No matter if I am out on the surfboard, generating an engineer data sheet, or giving a talk on stage, I live my life by once simple sentence: “It is all about the people.” Ways to connect with Dennis: website link is www.drdennyeddie.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dennisszymanski/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drdennyeddie Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drdennyeddie/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dennis.szymanski.35 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities, this podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, howdy, once again, everyone and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. It is a wonderful time here. We're recording this just a couple of days before Thanksgiving, and I especially give thanks for the fact that I get to join all of you and do these podcasts. So I want to thank you all for being here, and I want to thank our guest, Dennis Edward Szymanski, we're going to stick with Dennis, but we really appreciate you being here. And Dennis is involved with semiconductors. He lives life to the fullest. We were just talking before we started about his turtle. Lenny the turtle, he can he can talk about that if he wishes. And he also has some other interesting things that I'm looking forward to chatting about since he brought it up, and that is that he is, among other things, or he was, a stutterer, and so he lives with his stutter. He now lives in North Carolina on a beach, so it's his inner beach bum that he is supporting anyway. Dennis, without all without going in any much more detail about any of this, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here, Dennis Szymanski  02:15 Michael, not just because it's Thanksgiving. I am very grateful and thankful to be here with you, to have met you, as well as to be here with all the guests on unstoppable mindset and all the listeners to us, whether you're watching listening, it's great to be here and happy to have this great discussion here with you today. Michael Hingson  02:36 Well, we're glad you're here, and this will I'm looking forward to it. This will be a lot of fun. Why don't we start with kind of the early Dennis. I don't always start that way. Start with kind of the early growing up person, and let's go from there. Dennis Szymanski  02:50 Of course, I think a good place to start a lot of the time is the beginning. So I I'm a New Yorker, born and raised on Long Island to two very loving parents who have been supportive throughout all of my endeavors, from supporting me and my stuttering journey to encouraging me to pursue other outlets like music, encouraging me to stick to my academics and and even supporting my love of pets, which, as you alluded to, I have a turtle right now. Her name is Lenny, but she she is one of many dogs, lizards, hamsters, ferrets, chinchillas, birds. We've had a lot of pets growing up, and you know that that has informed, actually a lot of my current worldview, but we can, we can get to that later. Michael Hingson  03:45 What does your girlfriend think about all that? Dennis Szymanski  03:48 Well, my girlfriend is a four legged pet woman herself staying outside of tanks. That's, that's one of her remits. So Lenny, we got to realize our shared dream, me, my girlfriend, and Lenny of getting Lenny out of the house, out of the tank and into a pond in the backyard of my home here on the coast of North Carolina. So we're all happy. It's, it's been a, it's been an amazing summer. They are getting us all out of the house. So that's a good thing. You know, she's she's very supportive of of Lenny. We, we had two dogs together. Unfortunately, they were old and have since passed on. But we're planning to get some some, some new four legged friends down the line. And we are even in the process of courting, adopting a stray cat that is hanging around our our neighborhood. So it's a nice it's a nice middle ground there not as much responsibility as a dog, you know, a stray cat, but still the potential for the companionship and for the routine and for taking care of something that I know we. Both miss being absent dogs. Not that Lenny doesn't take taking care of it's just a different companion, yeah, different kind of pet Michael Hingson  05:10 we we have my guide dog, Alamo, and as listeners know, we also have stitch, the cat, who will be 16. We think in January, we rescued her. We think at about the age of five, family didn't want her, and they said, Take her to the pound. And we said, No, we'll find her a home. And along the way, I happened to ask what the cat's name was, and they told me that the cat's name was stitch. And I knew this cat wasn't going to go anywhere, since Karen had been a professional quilter since 1994 so quilters aren't going to give up an animal named stitch. Dennis Szymanski  05:44 No, too, too many coincidences there to just not, not go ahead with stitch. Yeah, so, Michael Hingson  05:53 so stitch is with us. Dennis Szymanski  05:55 We, we, we think a very similar way all the pets that I had, I actually never had a cat that was my own, just parents were allergic. Sister was allergic, things like this. Brother was allergic. But when our most recent dog passed, we noticed that this cat started coming around at a very at only a few weeks before he passed. So we think that they had a little bit of a conversation to say that, you know, a little changing of the guard, a proper handoff, if, if you will. So we're looking forward to having our tuxedo cat, which we named very appropriately and affectionately tuxy. We're unsure if it's a boy or a girl, yet. So we went with tuxi butcher, straying back from, from, from the original topic, coming back on, yes, the stray cat pun was somewhat intended. I get it born and raised, Long Island, New York. I left there when I was 17 out of high school to pursue my undergraduate degree in engineering, I stepping back a little bit. My father's a insurance agent, but a serial entrepreneur. He cut his teeth in the insurance industry, but now is heavily involved in a cybersecurity startup. So a man who wears many hats, and my mother is in it. So my first desk job, if you will, was in computers, and that kind of led me down the path of some sort of engineering related to computers. So I went up to the colleges of nanoscale science and engineering up in Albany, New York, for those familiar with the SUNY system, it's a State University in New York up in Albany, where I did four years there, and I studied nano scale engineering, which is a fancy way to say material science, with a focus in semiconductors, which led me to take my first job in industry while I was actually still getting my undergraduate degree, which bolstered my decision to continue on down here to North Carolina. I actually took my first step down in Raleigh as a PhD candidate at NC State, where I studied material science and engineering as well. And two things I've always you know, kept close is the love of business as it relates to technology. So I have a minor in business from my time in undergrad, as well as I took several MBA courses and got a technology Entrepreneurship Certificate from from NC State. So I take the business and the technology. I've married those into a career here as a product engineer for a compound semiconductor manufacturer, all of which we can get into a little bit more. But the other love that I keep close and have recently had a renaissance in my life, is my love of music. I was actually faced with a choice of music or engineering back when a lot of us started to apply to college or university at that time in their life, in high school, and I chose the engineering route, but but always kept the love of music. It was my first paying job, playing in a gig, playing gigs in bars when I was younger and right now I actually, like I said, I'm having a renaissance. I took a little bit of a hiatus while life got busy in grad school and getting my feet under me in the corporate world, taking my first job, but learned to to understand the need, the need that my brain, you know, to have that left brain, right brain, creative mind, logical mind flexed, and just to to have the time to myself. It's something that I enjoy, something that I've enjoyed since I'm eight years old. And, you know, I'm happy to keep continuing it. And I want to finish the opening monolog here, if you will. With. With something you said that I'm a lifelong stutterer, and ever since I opened my mouth, I can remember having disfluent speech, and I have to say that the biggest support that my parents ever gave me was encouraging me, as well as helping me at a very young age start in speech therapy, I I have met so many people in my life that Dennis Szymanski  10:32 did not have supporting parents or a supporting situation, and to To see that impact and that thread be traced throughout my life, and, you know, and juxtaposing it to other people's lives, it really makes a difference to have that supporting environment, that belief, because, you know, you said it, I live with the stutter Every day. It's very well managed. Now in my life, there was a time where I could not finish a sentence when I was in elementary school, early middle school, without having a stutter. But now I've learned through speech techniques, living my life in a relatively holistic way, how stress relates to my stutter and so many other things that I can manage it a lot better. But as my fellow stuttering people out there that might be listening, you always live with it. You know you're you're never, quote, unquote, cured. You're always having that stutter, managing it, whether it's overtly or covertly, it's always there. But very happy to get into all of that and more here with with you Michael, as as we kick off the episode. Michael Hingson  11:54 So what? What causes stuttering? Do we really know Dennis Szymanski  11:59 that's what, in part, is so fascinating is that we can't really pinpoint it, whereas to say this part of the brain for sure is, you know, impacting this part of your vocal cord in this way. And if we get in there and treat it however way it's going to go away there, of course, is ideas that you know certain parts of your brain have more of an impact or influence, and that it does directly relate to your vocal cords, because, at least from my stutter, how It works, and how I could, you know, most effectively explain it is my vocal cords simply lock up. So normal vocal cord operation, it's like a string on a violin, right, or string on a guitar. If you pluck it, it resonates, vibrates, makes sound. Your vocal cords work just the same, but their mechanism of quote, unquote, plucking is the air that you breathe. So if they lock up, you don't have vibration, you don't have sound, you don't have speech. And what's interesting is that if you were to put your your your ear or your hand to my mouth during a stuttering episode, there's still air flow like there's still air leaving my mouth, just as it does during fluent speech, but there's just no action and something else that is very interesting about the You know, my my stutter, and I've talked to other stutterers that have a similar experience, is that we know what we want to say. It's all upstairs. It's all formulated. It's just the physical blocking of the vocal cord, at least in my case and I, I make the, you know, the I make it important to say my case, because there is very different manifestations of stuttering, stammering, how one might block, how one might repeat a word. What are different triggers, etc. So in a nutshell, we don't really know which is why there's so many different theories, methodologies of treatment, how to cope, deal with, treat the the stud itself. Michael Hingson  14:32 Yeah, it's, it's fascinating, and I appreciate you giving us that explanation of it. It is something that I think is very important to point out that one of the things you mentioned is extremely crucial. Your parents were supportive. They helped you. My parents did the same thing when it was discovered that I was blind. Yeah, and a number of parents have really bought into helping their children recognize they can do whatever they choose and that they can deal with so many different issues. And oftentimes we also hear about parents who don't support some people succeed in spite of it, and some do not. But it's so important to really know that we, some of us, have parents who really help and and will do anything that they can to assist us in making life better for us Dennis Szymanski  15:41 and when we first got connected, and then afterwards, doing more listening to your talks, and other episodes of unstoppable mindset, I had learned that your parents were were supportive as well, and that made a mental note, as a matter of fact, to bring this up here in this talk, because I could not agree more the importance of support of your parents, especially as a young child, that's where everything starts. But then even as we grow our friends, you know, larger family and the networks that that that we keep is are so important to our development success as individuals. Michael Hingson  16:24 Yeah, so your parents are still with us. Dennis Szymanski  16:28 They both. Are they both? Are they divorced when I was very young, but that, again, you know, had no bearing on the support and the love I have a stepfather and a stepmother who are equally incredible and supportive. I always said I just got double the family that loves and cares. There you go. And my mother still lives on Long Island in the house where I grew up, so I love to go visit. Was just back there a couple of weeks ago, and are heading back up, you know, a couple of weeks time. And my dad actually lives in South Carolina. He relocated with my stepmother and my brother. They are around the Columbia area, so we're actually both Dennis' in the Carolinas. So that's actually quite nice. And I'm just just just saw him a couple of days ago, and I'm gonna see him, you know, on the Thanksgiving holiday as well. So looking forward to, looking forward to that. Michael Hingson  17:31 Well, last time I was back in the New York area for any length of time, I spent a week last year in Lindenhurst speaking to the Lindenhurst union free school district, and that was a lot of fun. Fortunately, it was before the snow hit. Oh, yeah, Lindenhurst. Dennis Szymanski  17:51 Lindenhurst was about a half an hour from where I grew up, one of the many, many towns that is the infinite urban sprawl of Long Island. Michael Hingson  18:00 Yeah. Well, yep. Well, it was fun. I was there for almost a week, and spoke to lots of sixth, seventh and eighth graders, did some faculty training, but enjoyed the area, and I've enjoyed Long Island every time I've been out there. So it was kind of fun. Well, I want to go back to this idea of nano scale. Tell me a little bit more about nano scale engineering. Dennis Szymanski  18:26 Absolutely, like I said, it's basically material science and engineering, but with a focus in semiconductors. So having had the hindsight now traditional material science background from NC State. When I went to do my graduate work, things like traditional material science, so metal stress strain curves. Didn't learn that in undergrad, focusing in semiconductors, I learned about transistors and the ethics of scaling semiconductor technology and computer programming at a very basic level that could help run certain parts of a semiconductor process. So very specific, very targeted focus that was nanoscale engineering. I was very fortunate to be the sixth graduating class out of the small colleges of nanoscale science and engineering. Like I said, that was part of the SUNY Albany system, and very hands on. I was in a building on the University's campus that was essentially an office building with 250 private companies pooling their resources in the office space as well as laboratory space, clean room space, but with a couple of classrooms. So not only was I rubbing shoulders with classmates, I was rubbing shoulders with people who worked at IBM or global founder. Or ASML Tokyo electron. These are big international companies that play in the semiconductor manufacturing space, and little did I know that was going to kickstart this incredible journey that has led me here to being a product engineer for a compound semiconductor manufacturer focused on gallium nitride power technology. So where people might be hearing this is in the AI data center talk. This material is going to enable faster, cheaper, cooler, more efficient chips, as well as you might have noticed, electric vehicles, your laptop, even your cell phone, charging a little faster and in recent years, and those bricks that used to sit on your lap and burn your lap get there, they're cooler. They're not as hot. All of these are direct advancements in compound semiconductor technology, semiconductor technology and essentially nanoscale engineering. And to go to its most fundamental route, you know engineer, nanoscale engineering is engineering on the nanoscale. And where we're at with semiconductor technology is we are looking at in silicon, a transistor is about a nanometer, two nanometers, which to put it in perspective for everybody listening, your hair, the width of your hair is 60 to 80 micrometers and nanometers are three orders of magnitude smaller, smaller than micrometers. So you can imagine that the reason we need clean rooms in semiconductor manufacturing is because one of your hair could wipe out hundreds, if not 1000s, of transistors on one of the chips, which nobody wants, right? You want a good manufacturing process that has high yield. So nano scale engineering has been was, was the start for for me with you know, the continuation of that has been to go into, as I said, material science in a more quote, unquote, proper sense, learning those stress strain curves, learning a little bit of polymer science, All applications and material science, but staying focused from age 17 till now on nanoscale engineering, which is material science focused, and semiconductors, Michael Hingson  22:51 if I recall, right, transistors were developed somewhere around 1948, so I mean, my gosh, that's only 77 years ago, ago, and look how far we've come. Dennis Szymanski  23:05 It truly is mind boggling. Michael Hingson  23:08 Michael, at the same time, we need to do something to figure out how to stop so many lithium ion batteries from causing fires somewhere. Dennis Szymanski  23:19 It's they're both material science problems for sure that that need to be tackled. I agree, Michael Hingson  23:26 yeah, one of those things that we're we're on the cusp of so many different developments. People talk about autonomous vehicles and so on. But, you know, the reality is, we're on the cusp. We're living through the the change that is coming. And personally, from my perspective, in my opinion, I can't wait for the time that we get to take driving out of the hands of drivers, because too many drivers don't do very well. Dennis Szymanski  23:55 You know, I have a very similar opinion, even though I will say one of my childhood dreams was to become a race car driver. So I do love to drive. I had an eighth of a mile go kart track in my backyard growing up, and one of the things that kept my sanity during my PhD program was going to the local go kart track and getting to put in some time trials. So I love to drive, but from a safety perspective, I could not agree with you more that it's high time that that we can implement some better safety and probably less traffic. Michael Hingson  24:33 Well, given the way most people seem to drive up here in Victorville or out here in Victorville, I am of the absolute opinion that I can drive as well as they can anyway, so Dennis Szymanski  24:44 we'll see. You know coming, coming from the New York driving environment to the North Carolina driving environment. Some things are similar, some things are very different, but, but it's definitely been, been fun spending almost half of my life. You know now down down down here in North Carolina, we had Michael Hingson  25:04 some people visiting us when my wife and I lived in New Jersey, and we drove into the city, and they said that the people who are with us, these cab drivers, are crazy. Just look at the way they drive. I would never want to be in a cab with with any of those drivers. And Karen pointed out, my wife pointed out something very relevant and so true for most cab drivers, at least back then, she said, look at those cabs. Do you see any dents? Do you see any dings? And they said, No. And she said, So what do you mean? You wouldn't want to be in those cars. You're probably safer in those cars than most anywhere else. Dennis Szymanski  25:48 She was right. She makes a good point. Michael Hingson  25:50 Practice. Makes perfect. It does. I love checker cabs, but we don't see those anymore. That's too bad. But oh well. But you know, one of the one way or another, I think that the time will come when autonomous vehicles will will make driving a lot safer, and that'll be good. But we're not there yet, and we're not there with with so many things I mentioned, the lithium ion batteries, they would they too will get better, and we will get over all of that. Now, of course, what we need to do is to make sure that we still have rare earth elements around. But that's going to be another challenge that we face over time. Dennis Szymanski  26:27 Yes, that's that's part of the fun, Michael, of being actually in material science as a discipline that it encompasses so many different touch points that we have in our life. One of my closest friends and was a colleague in my PhD program, is working on solid state battery technology that could potentially replace lithium ion technology and solve some of those problems just and it spans the whole gamut. I have a friend doing nuclear waste remediation. So very, very cool material science as a whole. You know, I'm obviously very enveloped in and my love is semiconductors, but my insatiable curiosity, I think I'm in the right field at Michael Hingson  27:20 large, yeah. What's the difference between incumbent semiconductors and compound semiconductors? Dennis Szymanski  27:30 Incumbent semiconductor technology has been predominantly silicon. So the raw material is you go to the beach and you get sand. That's obviously very oversimplifying. I'm not saying that you know TSMC or Global Foundries, or any of these guys are going to the nearest beach, but that is the raw material. It's very high purity. Silicon and compound semiconductors, on the other hand, are still very pure. That's one of the biggest material challenges of semiconductors at large, is to make them pure. But, and I'm glossing over a ton of physics and a ton of material science when I say pure. So just for any any fellow material science colleagues out there listening, I am aware that I glossed over a lot, but compound semiconductors are compound so you have two or more elements that come together that have semiconducting properties. So indium phosphide, indium and phosphorus, gallium nitride, gallium and nitrogen, aluminum gallium nitride, aluminum gallium and nitrogen. So they all come together. And what's very, very handy about these compound semiconductors is they can address a lot of niche applications in a much more efficient way than the incumbent silicon technology. So silicon technology can do a lot, I'm going to venture to say, almost everything we need. But the perfect example, and is on the top of everybody's mind is AI. You're not going to have AI in the form that we know it, if at all, without these compound semiconductors, silicon is just too inefficient. It's, you know, we've, we've reached certain limits at the material level that we need these compound semiconductors to get more efficient, AI, faster data interconnects, even, you know, charging your phone, laptop, electric vehicle, quicker, all of these are enabled. Enabled, and then to continue to iterate and improve, necessitate improvements and compounds. I mean, yeah, Michael Hingson  30:07 and that's, of course, the real key, speed and efficiency have a lot to do with it. I don't know. I remember having being a ham radio operator. I remember some of the early radios that I worked with. It was before, as ham operators would tell you, they went dark and went from tubes to transistors. So I remember vacuum tubes. My father was a TV repairman in Chicago before we moved out to California when I was five. And of course, then the biggest thing you ever replaced in a TV was a tube, although you did resistors and other things as well. But now, of course, it's a totally different animal. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Dennis Szymanski  30:50 I mean, the the vacuum tubes are exactly replaced with transistors. You replace with LEDs and all the different different things that modern semiconductors have enabled. Michael Hingson  31:00 They take a whole lot less power and are a lot a lot cooler in in the sense of, Well, I guess in cool in all ways. I had one I had one ham radio. It was a Polycom, and I forget the model number, but it ran extremely hot. We finally put a fan on one end of it to pull air through it. But without the fan, I could actually thaw and heat tater tots on it. It was so hot. Dennis Szymanski  31:29 Wow, you, you, you had a two in one. There you had, I did, and the ham radio Michael Hingson  31:35 all at the same time. It was great. But, yeah, I understand, and tubes are were replaced, and rightly so, by transistors. But a tube is a great way to teach the whole theory of how it all works and give you a way to see it in a very visual way that you're not going to see with transistors very well. Dennis Szymanski  31:57 That's true, and something that I was actually just kind of reappreciating Today was the history of it all, and how it's so important to realize that science and history are obviously inextricably linked from the progression standpoint, And then from what you said, it's it's so easy to to forget fundamentals and kind of get lost in the sauce, if you will. But I fully agree with what you say, that sometimes the quote, unquote old technology is actually just as good, if not better, a way to teach the fundamentals of the new technology, yeah, because so often they just build off of one another, right? Michael Hingson  32:49 The reality is that the process hasn't changed in terms of what they do. It's just that the product itself has changed, and it's become a lot more efficient and so on. But still, you're, you're moving electrons and and controlling them with positive and negative charges through the whole transistor process, just like you used to do with tubes, exactly, exactly. That's what makes it so, so interesting. And as you said, we take it way too much for granted. But I think that overall, it's it's great to have the old technology and the perspective to learn from, which is extremely important to do well. So what did you get your PhD in? Dennis Szymanski  33:40 So my PhD is in material science. Okay, that's what it is. My dissertation was on Super junction devices, a novel way to utilize gallium nitride in that particular device structure, super junction. So I again PhD, high level material science, compound semiconductors. And I focused on one particular material system, gallium nitride. And the goal was to learn about the material itself, make the material better and more suitable to be utilized in this type of transistor architecture that's called a super junction. Michael Hingson  34:32 So have we yet discovered a way to have any kind of superconductor operate at room temperature? Dennis Szymanski  34:39 Well, I didn't discover that there's been I mean, I keep up to date as best I can on other areas of the science world, and I know that we're doing really cool research that was previously thought to be impossible, right? Like most cutting edge scientific research.

CBS's News' David Begnaud shares good news and even MAKES some good news on social media with his Do Good Crew. Begnaud heard of Louisvillian Robert “Bob” Weihe who has been to 79 consecutive Derby races, but couldn't afford a ticket for Kentucky Derby 152 due to being in hospice care. Begnaud and WLKY is making it happen! STORY: https://www.wdjx.com/louisville-man-gets-tickets-to-his-80th-consecutive-derby/

If you've been sitting on a subscription box idea but feel overwhelmed about where to start, this episode is your roadmap. “I have an idea, but I don't know what to do next.” “I feel stuck.” “I don't want to do it wrong.” Most people aren't stuck because they're not capable. They're stuck because they're doing the steps out of order. So in this episode, I'm walking you through the exact 8 steps to go from idea to shipping your first box with clarity and confidence. Step 1: Start With the Person, Not the Product Your subscription box is not about the products inside. It's about the person you're serving. Instead of asking, “What should I put in my box?” Start with: Who is this for? What problem am I solving? Because even if it doesn't feel like a “problem,” it is. People don't buy products. They buy how those products make them feel: organized, relaxed, confident, seen. If you can clearly describe your ideal customer in one sentence and she immediately feels like, “That's for me,” you're on the right track. Step 2: Build Your Audience Before You Launch Don't wait until your box is ready to find customers. You need people before you have something to sell. Your job right now isn't to sell, it's to invite people into the journey. Share behind-the-scenes moments Ask for input (polls, naming, product ideas) Let people watch you build And remember, it doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be real. Step 3: Plan Your First 3–6 Months of Boxes Before you buy anything, map out your themes and product ideas for the first few months. Planning ahead: Makes sourcing easier Simplifies your content Creates a more consistent experience for your customers It also keeps you from scrambling every single month. When you know what's coming next, you make better decisions and you move with more confidence. Step 4: Price for Profit (Not Just Sales) This is a business, not a hobby. Once you've planned your boxes, then you start sourcing and you price with intention. A good starting goal is at least a 40% profit margin, with room to grow from there. And don't forget the hidden costs: Shipping Packaging Fees Replacements Because making sales doesn't always mean making money. This step is about building something sustainable that supports you long-term. Step 5: Build a Warm, Ready-to-Buy Waitlist Before you launch, you need people who are already excited to buy. That's what your waitlist is for. Think of it as warming up the room before you make the offer. Use social media to grow your list, and email to nurture it: Share your story Show sneak peeks Reveal themes Take them behind the scenes People don't just buy the box, they buy into you and connection is what turns interest into action. Step 6: Keep Packaging Simple (At First) Packaging matters but not as much as you think in the beginning. Choose packaging based on what's going inside the box, and keep it simple and cost-effective. You can always upgrade later. In the early days, your customers care more about what's inside than the box it came in. Let your product lead, and let your packaging grow with your business. Step 7: Plan Your Launch Before Launch Day A successful launch doesn't start on launch day. It starts weeks before. Give yourself 2–4 weeks to build excitement: Talk about your box consistently Share sneak peeks and progress Repeat your message (more than you think you need to) Your energy and consistency are what build momentum. Step 8: Pack and Ship Your First Box This is the moment where it all becomes real. Your first shipment will likely be a mix of excitement, chaos, and pride.  Keep things simple: Batch your packing Create a basic workflow Do quality checks And document everything. Photos, videos, behind-the-scenes moments all make up the kind of content that fuels your future marketing. Most importantly, celebrate it. Because this is a big deal. Success comes from doing the steps in the right order. Not skipping ahead. Not rushing. Not trying to do everything at once. Just taking the next step. So ask yourself, “What step am I skipping right now?” Because you don't need everything figured out. You just need to move forward. If you want help mapping out your first six months of boxes, I'd love for you to join me inside my 6 in 60 Workshop. Join me in all the places:     Facebook Instagram Launch Your Box with Sarah Website  Are you ready for Launch Your Box? Our complete training program walks you step by step through how to start, launch, and grow your subscription box business. Join the waitlist today!

On a Wednesday drive WD talks all things Panthers, UNC signing, Morgan talks Talladega in, The Fast Lane, Makes some bets in Dalton's Dollars, and talks with David Glenn on theNCAA Tournament.

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins takes a deep dive with his guest Matt into the assassination of Carmine Galante—one of the most infamous mob hits in American history. Matt co-authored a book titled Made In Long Island Matt begins by analyzing the controversial footage captured at the Ravenite Social Club shortly after the murder. While federal investigators interpreted the scene as a celebration by those responsible, Matt challenges that narrative. He breaks down the body language and behavior of key figures, including Bruno Indelicato, suggesting the footage actually reflects anger and exclusion—not guilt. The episode introduces guest Matt, co-author of Made on Long Island, who provides an insider's perspective on the inner workings of organized crime. Matt prefers to not give his last name. Together, they explore how the Galante hit fit into a broader power struggle within the Bonanno crime family and beyond. Matt cowrote this book with Bartley Scarbrough. Matt tells a little-known story about Mob dealings with Fireworks around the 4th of July. One story is about a closed store and how they made up for the closed store and gave a fireworks show on the 5th and most of the kids never knew. The conversation expands to include major mob figures such as John Gotti and Sonny Red Indelicato, examining the shifting alliances and rivalries that shaped the events leading up to the assassination. Matt shares firsthand stories of mob life, detailing how communication relied on coded language and payphones—tools that kept operations hidden in plain sight. Gary and Matt dissect the planning behind the hit, revealing a calculated operation involving surveillance, weapon disposal, and carefully constructed alibis. They also address the aftermath, focusing on law enforcement's inability to definitively link the crime to certain suspects—raising questions about whether individuals like Indelicato were wrongly accused.   A central theme emerges: the gap between official narratives and the complex realities of organized crime. Matt argues that investigative misinterpretations—particularly by federal authorities—led to flawed conclusions and, potentially, unjust prosecutions. This episode challenges long-held assumptions about the Galante murder, offering listeners a more nuanced view of Mafia politics, loyalty, and betrayal. It's a detailed reexamination of a landmark mob hit—and a reminder that the truth is often far more complicated than the headlines. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Transcript [0:00] Yeah, if you could just hold the frame right there, I think it’s very important [0:03] to set the stage of what we have here. This is a meeting of Bonanno crime family members, very high up ones, in front of Neil Delacroche’s Gambino headquarters on Mulberry Street, known as the Ravenite. Now, the feds used this tape to say that Bruno Indelicato was part of a conspiracy to murder Galante and that this tape shows the celebration. It does not. This tape is an absolute beef being put in primarily by Sonny Red and Delicato because he was supposed to do the hit jointly with the Gambino family led by John Gotti. He’s furious because at this point in time, he thinks he’s left out of the head. And just before you roll it, this video basically proves to every law enforcement person and every Cosa Nostra member that the people in this video did not do the murder. You don’t go out in Cosa Nostra, commit one of the biggest hits ever, a triple homicide, and then show your face an hour later. It does not work that way. So if you roll the tape, we can see some of the body language on these guys as well. [1:08] The guy in the white is Stefano Canone. He is the family’s consigliere, [1:13] which is technically third in charge, an advisory role. He is already at the Ravenite when everyone else arrives. A key figure in this is Sonny Red in Delicato Wearing a black jacket you’ll see His son is in the white shirt there The younger fellow that’s Bruno in Delicato The only guy that was convicted of this crime Now look at what’s going on here This is not a celebration They’re in the face of him And they’re furious And stop right there if you could, The gentleman in the black jacket right there. [1:44] Sonny, Red, and Delicato, he takes a couple steps back from his consigliere, which is technically his boss, and he turns around in fury, and he’s angry because, again, his team, led by him, was left off the head. Notice also, if you want to keep rolling the tape, he goes to his glasses. This is an absolute sign of anger, as per our body language experts, who, by the way, don’t even know who these people are. The only thing they know is this is a dispute, not a celebration. You notice that when he puts his hand up by his glasses? Now he thinks a little bit better of it because that’s his boss he’s talking to. And that’s a very good sign here. Again, another angle of this is in the Pizza Connection case in 1985. [2:27] Not only in the indictment, but also in FBI testimony, when asked who killed Carmen Galante, they did not say it was Bruno and Delicato and two other masked assailants. They said it was three unknown masked assailants that killed him. That’s what their testimony was. Everybody on the Cosa Nostra side and on the law enforcement side knows what this is. No mob guy commits a triple murder and then goes out to run to a place that we used to refer to as the FBI screen test, which was the Ravenite in Lower Manhattan and Mulberry Street. Everybody knows it, and it’s about time the story gets told, [3:05] and you’re going to see a lot more of this. Hey, all you wiretappers. Good to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit Sergeant, and I have a guy here who has a different story and what he would say the real story behind the murder of Carmine Galante. Now, guys, there’s three monumental hits in organized crime history, I would say. The Galante hit… [3:33] Big because of the cigar in his mouth and that picture that was captured, but he was also an important hit in Mob. Now we also had the Anastasia. Anastasia was important and it was also got important, more important because of the photographs. Paul Castellano was important, I think more because of John Gotti than anything, but Carmine Galante and Matt here knows a lot about that hit and a lot about an alternative story to what really happened as it was reported it in the media. So welcome, Matt. Thank you so much for having me on, Gary. I really love your program. I’m happy to be here. All right, Matt, you got a book made on Long Island. Let’s just show everybody the copy of that. There you go, guys. There’s a copy of the book. It’s available on Amazon right now, right, Matt? [4:25] It certainly is. Thank you for putting it up. And one little sentence I’ll draw attention to at the bottom is, no AI was used in this. I know a lot of books are coming out now and people using AI, which I personally think is garbage. This is all handwritten and 440 pages of story after story. Yeah, there’s a lot to it. I guess you were writing under the name of Bartley Scarborough. Yeah, Bart is a good guy. He’s a friend of mine who actually started organizing this with me literally about 15, 20 years ago. Just to give everybody the timetable, we could not release this stuff till now because everybody with criminal culpability is now deceased or one guy is doing life in jail without the possibility of parole for another crime. That’s why we waited so long. Bart organized this stuff. He had me go over the thoughts. And he actually, I don’t know how much he’s going to want to talk about it, but he actually was there when we spoke to some of our friends who gave us extreme detail about this. But in terms of the actual writing, I actually penned it all myself with Bart’s assistant. All right, great. And as you know by now, it’s no easy task to write, especially 400-some pages. That’s a lot of words. That’s a lot of work, guys. Trust me, that is a lot of work. [5:41] You’ve got to keep going over it. Good writing is hard because it takes about three rewritings to actually get it out. Did you find that? [5:51] I did. It’s definitely extremely hard to do with volumes like this going over the past so many years. And plus getting the information from our friends, it was extremely hard to do. It was very time consuming. And I need to stress for the audience, I was not present when any of these major crimes like the homicides went down. I was present for the other things in the book, horse racing, which I’m sure we’re going to talk about later, major fireworks sales. But I need the audience to know that I was not present when the homicides went down, even though I was a juvenile at the time, and that from the proceeds of the fireworks sale and the horse racing, I did not pocket the proceeds like other people did. I know there’s lawyers out there, and I’m paying some $1,000 an hour. I apologize to people, but the lawyers told me 100 times I need to make those facts clear. Okay. All right. You did not do any of this, but you were right next to people who did do this. So we’re talking about firsthand information, correct? That is correct. Now, again, I was there for some of the stuff. I was there for some of the entity in the book. I was definitely there for the major league fireworks deals and participated in those. The horse racing that we’ll get to later, I was there for that. But in terms of the hard stuff, the stuff with no statute of limitations, homicides, I was not there. [7:12] So tell me about these group of guys that you grew up with, that you started doing some of these things. We have some kind of interesting personalities in there. Tell us about those guys. Oh my gosh. We had a real collection of characters is the only way to put it. Now, growing up when we were very young, let’s call it 11, 12, 13, we all really had two goals in mind. We wanted to make money and we wanted to play sports at that age. And that’s what we did. We made money on anything, paper routes, shoveling snow, raking leaves. And what happened was being so competitive, we got into a feud with another group in the same town. Now, there’s no way around it. We were idiots at this age. Some of our guys were carrying guns. Two of the guys in particular, their parents, what we call, were on the job, which means they were cops. So they had access to guns. Another guy was able to get us guns. So the bottom line is you’ve got 13-year-old kids who… That have no fuse carrying guns. Here is where it all started. [8:11] My uncle, like my cousin’s dad, came to one of the baseball games, and we had no idea that he knew the other coaches. And all of a sudden, they realized these kids are carrying guns. They’re going to kill each other. So they sat us down, disarmed us. It’s a pretty funny thing that’s in the book. I remember my uncle saying, whoever has a weapon, you put it on the table right now. I take a sock out of my pocket. He’s, what’s wrong with you? He goes, I asked for weapons, not your dirty laundry. I go, there’s a 25 inside the sock. He was shocked. But what they did was this. They disarmed us. They said, you want to kill each other with fists? Go at it. But we have a better idea. Why don’t you sell fireworks? Why don’t you work for us? You’ll make money doing this. First year, we only had about a week before the 4th of July. We sold out a couple pallets that they had. Now, the second year, I said, can we get these same prices? They said absolutely We went nuts to sell this stuff We ended up with an order for $85,000, And that’s how the order was so big That John Gotti got brought into this He was their boss at the time That’s how we met him And again, people say John Gotti, John Gotti Well to us at the time John Gotti was the same as John Smith The name meant nothing to us. [9:26] So some of these guys, older guys that you started dealing with that sat you down were relatives. There were members of the Gambino family then of Gotti’s crew. That is correct. Yep. Yep. They actually had two guys out of the three guys that sat us down. And by the way, none of us, myself included, ever had even the slightest inkling that these guys were involved in organized crime. You actually had two guys that were Gambino guys and one guy who was also a coach who was with the Genovese. [9:54] That was the actual makeup of the three guys that sat us down. And this was that. What towns are you talking about out there in Long Island? Kind of guys that listen from New York. Sure. This is actually Syosset, believe it or not, which was a upper middle class area. Nice and calm, crime free. And again, most of everybody that was with us was from Syosset. [10:19] Interesting. So the fireworks thing, I’ve always wondered about that. I’ve noticed in Kansas City, the mob guys, several of them every year have these huge, big firework tents. And I started asking around. I found out that they might make $100,000 in about two or three weeks time off those fireworks. There must be immense profit in it. And it’s so that kind of profit and kind of a gray area crime, if you will, in some cities, they don’t allow fireworks to be sold or even to be shot off. Mob likes to get into that and make that money. So tell us a little bit more about how that worked. Who were your customers? You guys went out into the community and sold more. You were more like you weren’t retailers. You were more like found other people to retail. It sounds to me like tell me the nuts and bolts of how that worked. [11:05] That is exactly correct. Now, the first year when they gave us the two pallets with about five or six days, maybe a week before the 4th of July, we sold those strictly to local people we know. And by the way, as kids, we loved fireworks ourselves. We still do. I do. I can speak for myself. We love this stuff. Now, when I saw the prices, for example, that these guys can get us, and I’ll use a barometer, very common in New York, a mat of firecrackers, which is a pack of 80 packs inside, 16 firecrackers to a pack. You could buy that for $8 And it would just fly like hotcakes These guys were selling us the stuff At $3 a mat So all these prices Were anywhere from. [11:49] 70, sometimes even 80% cheaper than what we could sell them for. So the profit, like you said, was utterly enormous. Now we had a full year to work our second year because they said, yes, sell as much as you want, go ahead and get the pre-orders. We contacted everybody we knew. All of our guys had people in other places, Huntington, the town of Huntington, we did big business, other places out in Suffolk and even somewhere in the city. [12:13] And again, for young kids at that age to put together an order for $85,000. She knocked everybody. And that’s what really got their attention. And for that kind of money being fronted to us, that’s why they had to bring their boss in, which was John. The other thing that really shocked us too, I was worried about getting caught. Now the legal penalties for getting caught was nothing. Five or $10 fine, nothing on your record. It was nothing. However, the police could take all your firearms. If they took money like that from young kids, we’re finished. Our lives are over. and to be honest, the organization solved that for us. They sat us down with cops. The cops told us to our face, you will never have a problem. Don’t worry about it. And once I heard, that’s when I told our guys, go ahead and sell as much as you can, and that’s when we got the order for the two tractor trailers. I knew at that point in time, the risk is pretty much gone. Yes, there’s a risk of getting robbed, but we had two of our guys’ older brothers who were a really severe, a tough guy, one that’s referenced in the book a lot, Bubbles. And again, he’s a deceased, and we’ll talk about him more in terms of the Galante hit. So people that are going to rob us really would be like, why would I rob these guys? Look at who they’re with. So in my opinion, we had no risk, and that’s why we went nuts with this. [13:30] That’s the beauty of working with the mob. They usually had connections with law enforcement that could get you protected. Now, you brought Gotti into it. Tell us about meeting Gotti for the first time. [13:39] Was he all that, like they say? Was he just this real charismatic personality that you just wanted him to like you and wanted to do what he wanted you to do? What was that like? I’m glad you brought it up because I’m going to tell you that’s the funniest thing that ever happened to any of us in our lives. And I suspect it might have been one of the funniest things that ever happened to him. When we got this order for the two-tracked trailers, he wanted to meet us with some of his other people. One that turned out to be Angelo, quack, quack, Angelo Ruggiero. And we decided to meet at our friend’s house over in Syosset. It was during a school day, but we had no risk because his dad was a New York City cop. His dad wasn’t there. His mom would be out the whole day playing a card game she played called Mahjong. So we said, yeah, let’s do it at his house. Now, these guys show up. Again, we’re teens. We’re 13, 14, 15 in that range. One, a couple guys maybe a couple years older. And these guys were like in their low 30s. That’s all John Gotti was age-wise when we met him, I would say. [14:39] No older, I wouldn’t think, than 35. I could do the math, but right in that range. All nice cars, nice suits. They come in with all the samples. So we lay them all around my friend Jeff’s house I’m talking about in his stoves, his mother’s piano, the couches and everything And they’re going over stuff and they’re saying, look This stuff here comes $48 to a case Your price, I’m just making up numbers for argument’s sake Your price is $175 a case on this one You can easily sell this stuff for $600 or whatever the numbers were So we’re shocked Now to set the stage My friend’s mom was really A kind of a crazy lady she was very Loud and she was extremely Opinionated if not wild She would always kid my not kid She was serious to my friend Jeff saying You’re a no good bum this Boy’s gonna end up in jail she would berate Our friend into the ground I mean this kid was crazy believe me this kid was Driving us to school at 14 and 15 years Old didn’t have a worry in the world So Yeah. [15:40] This is where the humor came in. She came home unexpectedly. Apparently, one of the card players didn’t show up. They couldn’t do it. She walks into her house, and she sees fireworks all over. She sees us with guys who look like gangsters that are 35 years old, and she blows her stack. She screams, who are these hoodlums in my house? What are these devices these criminals have? What is this fool meaning her son done this time with nuts? And I’ll never forget John says to my uncle who was in there He says did you set this up as a gag? Very low so nothing we could hear except a few people And my uncle had a really weird look on his face He goes I wish I could get off that easy So we figure the deal is all over She’s going nuts I run up to her with the price lists And I say Mrs. Goldberg please I know we like to shoot a fire It’s not about that It’s about making money I show her the list And I reference before the matter firecrackers I point to it. I call these guys firework salesmen. That’s what I call John and Angelo. I go, these firework salesmen here can sell us this amount of firecrackers for $3. [16:49] We can sell it all day long for $8. There’s a fortune in this. So then instead of her blowing up, she goes, tell me more. So that was funny enough. So I go through more prices. And just to set the stage for your listeners, a lot of people in New York might know this term. People outside might not. I’m a Christian, but if you have a non-Christian, Jewish people call him Goy or Goyim. She’s looking at the lists, and she explodes in the loudest voice you’ve ever heard. If the Goyim will buy these devices, then sell them to the Goyim we were. We lost it. [17:24] She said that Angelo, my uncle, a bunch of the guys had to go outside. And I stepped outside with them, too, because they didn’t want to insult her and laugh in her face. I don’t know how John stayed in the house with her, but he did for a while. These guys were laughing so hard, tears were coming out of us. So the neighborhood girls that we knew saw these guys all dressed in suits. They thought we were crying, and they sincerely asked, are you guys okay what happened? It was because we were laughing so hard we started crying. So I said, let me get in here. The fireworks deal is more important. So she went over this stuff with us, telling us how we’re going to make money. Just insanity. The book really expands on this. And then afterwards, when John left the house, he also broke down in laughter. He didn’t want to do it in front of her. He couldn’t take it. Out of respect, he didn’t want to laugh in someone’s face like that. But he walked two doors down, and he freaking lost it. So I think it’s got to be one of the funniest things he’s ever had happen to him in his life. He said it was. And it just got crazier from there. [18:19] Now, was Angelo Ruggiero with him? He was his right-hand man. Was he there on this deal? Yeah, Angelo was there with him. Yep, he sure was. What was he like to deal with as a person? I’ve interviewed his son who has a show. What was he like? Was he funny? He seemed like he talked a lot and was a funny guy. I’m just curious. He did. And again, in the account that you guys are going to read about in the book, Tommy, who’s the main character in this book, who again, deceased and gave me all the interactions he had with him, explains what a nice guy he was. I know he had a violent side. I know he has a lot of hits under his belt, but he was apparently a ton of fun. [18:59] When I interacted with him, I thought he was freaking hilarious. And as you’ll see in the book, Angelo is really the one who fed all the inside information nonstop to our buddy Tommy, Tommy, who at that time was playing cards over at John’s Club in Ozone Park, the Bergen, very regularly at that point in time. And the book really traces Tommy about what happened, his interactions with Angelo, his interactions with everybody else. And when you get to the whole crux of the matter, Angelo is the one who told our good friend Tommy that, hey, the commission has authorized a hit on Galante. And the hit is to be done jointly with our family, meaning the Gambinos, and with the Bananos. And that John was going to be the leader of the Gambino faction. [19:48] Sonny Red and Delicato was going to be the leader of the Banano faction, and Joey Messino was not only the one taking the messages to and from Rusty, which is the Philip Mestelli in jail, but Joe Messino was going to supervise the entire operation. So that was the structure of it. Yeah, that’s what I’ve read about it. And also what you’re saying about Angelo Ruggiero is that’s one reason the Bureau was able to learn so much about Castellano because he would go to meetings at Castellano’s house, if I remember right, come back home and get on the phone or have some people come over. And he talked to him about, he said this and he said this and he said that and he said this. That gave him probable cause then to go into Castellano’s house. So he was known to be loose lips, and that’s why he got the moniker quack quack, I’ve heard. But I also heard it was because of the way he walked, so I’m not sure. No, that’s true. Both of what you’re saying is true. And just to touch on him one more time, very important. He loved my friend Tommy because Tommy got him out of more than a couple of jams. I’ll give an example. There was a guy in the Gambino family up in Connecticut. John always referred to him as the genius Tony Mungali And he put a firework sorter in with Angelo. [21:06] Now, this guy blew his stack because no fireworks came, and he had promised the entire neighborhood a gigantic fireworks show. He had his friends, his people of his family over there, neighbors and no fireworks. This guy blew his stack, and this story is detailed in the book. Tommy got a call from another Gambino guy the morning of July 5th, very early. He was still hungover from partying the night before. He said, oh, my God, what’s this about? It’s got to be something bad. Did somebody blow their hand off with fireworks? What’s going on? And the bad news was that this Tony had put a beef in saying, what’s wrong with you people? You didn’t do what you said. And he was blaming Angelo. Tony was all over Angelo. And the bottom line is Tony was right. It was Angelo’s fault. However, my friend Tommy never threw Angelo under the bus. My friend Tommy ate it. And he basically, it’s a real good recounting in the book. And there’s so many stories like this. There’s hundreds of them. But I’ll give you this one real quick. [22:03] Like, so Tommy basically told Tony Mengele, listen, how old are the kids that you promised this big fireworks show to? And Tony blew up. He’s like, what the F does it matter how old the kids are? But my friend Tommy was smart and he was going somewhere. He’s like, listen, these kids don’t know the difference between July 5th and July 4th. We’re going to come to your house tonight. We’re going to give it the most insane fireworks show anybody in your area has ever seen. We don’t want a dime. We’re so sorry this mistake happened They go up there I was with them at that point. [22:38] Nothing but fun. So welcoming. And again, my buddies, none of us would ever throw Angelo under the bus. And believe me, Tony and his uncle, Sandalo, he tried to pin it on Angelo. We said, no, it’s not his fault. It’s not his fault. Bottom line is those guys loved us. One of Tony’s workers ended up being a gigantic fireworks customer of ours. And to the best of my knowledge to this day, and I’m not involved in it in the slightest, To this day, all one of his guys does is sell fireworks in the Connecticut region. Makes a fortune. Interesting. And so that’s a wild story. But again, Angelo loved Tommy because so many times Tommy would say, look, Angelo didn’t do this. I did. What did Angelo do in return? He gave Tommy so many different pieces of information. And again, I won’t bog you down, but each one of these stories is so interesting. Angelo had some fireworks clubs that he made money on. [23:32] There’s no other way to put it. Angelo was not working much at all. And then one of these meetings, John brought everyone in and said, listen, from now on, these clubs that sell fireworks, particularly Oceanside, New York, Long Beach, Bayville, Massapequa, he goes, I’m giving them to you guys to run. And now, obviously, none of us want anything to do like that. We’re going to cut out his friends. We’re going to end up in a freaking meat grinder or end up in a cement truck. So we all told John we didn’t want it. John said, that’s it. It’s over. It’s yours. so then our next step was to make sure we figured out how much roughly those guys were making. [24:05] I give my friend tommy all the credit in the world he ended up giving angelo more money by a lot, for using the place than angelo ever made doing work and this time angelo doesn’t have to do any work angelo loved us all these guys loved us because we paid them more than they made and now they didn’t have to do a damn thing so our guys were very smart and calculating particularly Tommy, but some of the other ones. And that was a good Angelo story. Yeah, it is. And I’ve read that not only Gotti and in his neighborhood, but other mob guys around in New York and their neighborhoods, they would put on a huge fireworks shows for everybody in the neighborhood every year. Gotti particularly was noted for that. That is interesting, their love for fireworks and fireworks shows. Did they ever front you these things? Did they front you money or did Did they buy the fireworks? [24:56] You guys made this money each year, but I’m sure you’d spend it all. Then the following year, you’d have to come up with money. How did that work? The money worked. You wanted to be able to pay them back if they fronted anything. [25:08] Yes. You have a bunch of good questions here. I’m going to backtrack one second on what you said about guys in the life loving fireworks. That is a hundred percent fact. Love the fireworks and the stuff that people see at some of the celebrations over at the Bergen. Yeah, that was rooted from our guys providing it. Now, here is one of the reasons why John turned over these four locations to us. He had complaints from multiple people. Castellano, I believe Michael Franzese people. These guys went to the fireworks locations on the best days, like July 2nd and July 3rd, and they were closed. And John blew up at that. He’s making me look like a freaking idiot. I’m telling Castellano’s people, it could have been his nephews or little cousins or whatever, go to this place to load up with fireworks for free. These guys go to the place and it’s closed that’s one of the motivating factors why john, turned that business over to us we had it open all the time now in terms of fronting stuff absolutely the money was enormous those guys fronted it to us all the time big loads that’s just how it was young kids like that we can come up with anything near that kind of money. [26:14] And just another tidbit too the lady i told you about who would go wild when we were doing the deal. She offered to fund some money up too. And that’s detailed in the book as well. But yeah, as we got it to like year number three, I don’t remember us ever putting a penny up after year three. It was all fronted to us. Was it all cash too? When you went out to these clubs and these people with the neighborhoods and stuff, would they always just give you cash each year? [26:40] That is a great question, and the answer is yes for the people we retailed to, yes for the people that walked into the stores. However, we had wholesale customers that we would give credit to. Now, I’ll give you this story, which is also detailed in the book real quick. There was a street gang in Huntington. They were known as the Huntington Hitters, primarily Hispanics. They gave us an order, and one of our good friends got back from a younger kid that he helped out before that his older brother was intending to rob us when we dropped off the fireworks. [27:14] So we had what I thought was a brilliant plan made. Tommy was very instrumental in this, and I gave some feedback too. We told these guys, come meet us at this bar out on Jericho Turnpike in Huntington. We have some additional fireworks we want to show you guys and see if you want it, which was a lie. But we knew that they wouldn’t rob us then because we didn’t have anything honest. Let me tell you what we brought to that meeting. We brought Bubbles and two of his guys that were freaking deadly people. And they had freaking gym bags with them. And they said, don’t worry anything about security when we do this deal. And they showed him stuff inside the bags, heavy duty weaponry. So right away, these Huntington hitter group said, these are the wrong people to rob. So sure enough, right on cue, a day or two later, they called my buddy and said, you know what? We don’t want to do the fireworks business. We can’t. That I petitioned, and I got a few of my friends to agree, and Tommy definitely went with it too. You know what? These guys can make a fortune doing this. Let’s front them five or ten grand worth of this stuff and see what happens. And I’m like, it’s not going to cost us anything. Number one, I don’t think they’re going to rob us. If they do, what did we lose? $1,500 at the most? My friends said we were nuts, but we went with it. And I want to tell you, smartest move we ever made. [28:29] As every year we went by, we fronted them more and more. They were our first customer that we ever fronted a full tractor trailer to. Never had a problem getting one cent from them. It’s funny how that evolved. It’s just absolute madness. But again, I give Tommy a lot of the credit here and some of the other guys very sharp to come up with a business plan like this. [28:52] I tell you, this little crew you got in with early on, they were a bunch of hustlers. But you also had this deal with Gotti and horse racing and getting inside information on horse racing. There’s some pretty good stories there that are in the book. Tell the guys a little bit about that point. Then we’ll move on to the Galante hit. [29:11] Absolutely. Now, horse racing was interesting. We would go to a place called Roosevelt Raceway, which is over in Westbury, Long Island. Really not that far from where we lived over in Syosset. Now, again, I know the law was probably you had to be 18 to make a bet. They didn’t care. I was making bets there at 12 and 13 years old. I’ll tell you this one time that they did care, and I’ll get to that at the end of the question you asked, and you’ll see why. So we were clowns, but even as clowns, we could see it. If a horse, these were harness racing, by the way. If a harness race is coming down the stretch, you didn’t have to be a genius to see that one or two of these horses would hold back, but the other two jockeys would whip the crap out of their horses. So naturally, we felt cheated, even at young ages. Our guys were definitely certified. There’s no question about that. Our guys would throw things at the freaking jockeys. I’m talking about golf balls, rocks. Our guys were insane. And a lot of that stuff is detailed in the book, how crazy we were. But to get to your point, after I think it was the third or fourth year, John walked with Tommy. [30:17] And he said, you guys are bringing in so much money and doing so well. I want to give you a gift. And I remember Tommy, because myself and a little bit of Bart, but myself, I had to pull all this out of my friend Tommy. He knew he was going to pass away. And he wanted this story out in the public. Now, this guy, Tommy, never wanted his real name used, but he gave me detail after detail. Some of the stuff, like I’m explaining with the fireworks and the horse racing, I was there myself to see. But on the heavy stuff, he gave me detail after detail. same with a little bit to Bart. So this is how Tommy explained it to us. John gave him a sheet of paper and Tommy being a smartest said, oh, what is this, John? You want me to go play the freaking lottery with these numbers? What do these numbers mean? John, you smartest. Here’s what the numbers mean. The first number was the number of the race at Roosevelt Raceway. The next four numbers were the only four horses that could win. Usually these races had eight horses in them. Once in a while, seven, once in a while, nine, but eight was the norm. Those are the only four horses that can win. And for the audience, I want to explain to them how that’s possible. [31:24] Let’s say you have an eight horse harness race and you tell four of the jockeys, no matter what happens, you are not to come in the top. They’ll hold the horses back. And by the way, this is not just conjectural rumor. These guys got locked up for it later on down the line, jockeys and everybody what they were doing is it hold the four horses back the organization would have no idea what horse was going to win they just knew which four wouldn’t so what did they didn’t bet winner plays to show they would bet exactus triples and sometimes super factors which means all four and box those four around some yeah so in your example. [32:03] Basically, John gave our buddy Tom three races, and Tommy knew that this has got to be damn better than a tip. It has to be rock solid. So what happened was we all went there, and we knew nothing about it. We didn’t know that we should just bet a small amount of money. We had no knowledge about damaging a pool, so I’ll make it easy for the listeners. Tommy overbet these races like crazy. For example, if a three combination triple should pay $1,500, the first thing the FBI and the New York Racing Authority would ask is, why did this $1,500 triple pay only $400? And the reason is, and they knew it because the race was fixed. So everybody was betting those combinations. Now, the organization was smart enough to only bet small amounts of money, and they used the term not to damage the pool. That was a term they used all the time. We don’t want to damage the pool. [33:04] Again, throw us in the mix. We had absolutely no idea. We didn’t know any of this. So Tommy bet the crap out of these races, and he did damage the pool. And that brought the attention of the authorities. But worse than that, another long story in the book goes back to the Connecticut people, because I think the genius Tony Mengele was the one helping to fix the races. So they figured there was a leak on their side. And John Gotti actually thought he was going to get killed over this. And he told people, including Angelo, I might not be coming back from this meeting. I got sent for here. The horse pulls bad because John was really running the horses with Tony and some other guys. Tony grabbed him by chance outside of the Ravenite, Mr. Neal’s club, and they walked. [33:52] And Tony apparently was furious, like, yeah, let’s kill whoever damaged the pool, whoever did this. And then John apparently told him it was us. And then Tony says, oh, man, those fireworks guys, I love those guys. He goes, okay, nothing’s going to happen here. So apparently Tony went into the meeting, and he basically lied to the people there, Castellano and Neil Delacroach, and he says, listen, I found out the leak. The leak is on our side, and I’ll take care of it. And that’s how it worked But again, that ties back to the fireworks If that never happened, I don’t know what would have happened John had every intention of going in there and saying he’s screwed up He didn’t explain to us And he had no business giving us the numbers And he knows that, He did not have permission to give us anything at the racetrack He took it on himself to do it, And he got saved by that stroke of luck Of meeting Tony in front of the club before the meeting Had someone been outside, whoever Tommy Bellotti or anybody said Hey, get inside, the meeting’s going on Those two would not have had a chance to talk. I don’t know what would have happened, but I think it would have been very bad for Sean. Yeah, would have been. Yeah, that’s interesting. Now, explain to the guys about the pool. Everybody doesn’t know about the pool. [35:04] These exactors and trifectas, how that pool works. That is a great question because we had to have it explained to us. Let’s take any racetrack, and the first number you’re going to have is how many people bet on what’s focused on triples. Now, the definition of a triple is horses come in the order of one, two, three. So if you bet a 7-4-3 triple, the race must end 7-4-3 for you to hit that triple. Now, the next variation of that is if you like the 7-4-3, what most people will do is they will do what’s called boxing that triple, which means they have 7-4-3 and that’s a winner. [35:43] But so is 4-3-7. So is any combination. So is 2-7-4. [35:49] 3-7-4. Any of the combination of your three horses win. Now, they can tell what a triple should pay based on the amount that’s spent and what the odds are. Let’s say you have a horse that’s a mid shot, like an 8 or 10 to 1. You have a favorite in there and maybe a halfway of a little bit of a long shot. They know what that should pay in a certain range. Now, if you know that race was fixed, and by the way, it’s all pari-mutual, so the weighting is average. If you’ve got $10,000 in a triple pool and you have 10 winning tickets, each ticket’s going to get paid $1,000. And they would know that’s legitimate and that’s honest. And there should be about 10 people with those combinations. Now, if you have that same $10,000 worth of triple pool, and again, these are round numbers. It’s way higher, just for an example. and all of a sudden you’ve got 105 winning tickets when mathematically there should be 10 or 15 at the most the money drops that thousand dollar prize now might be 210 dollars and that’s what the feds and everyone new york racing authority looks for if you have a horse that’s eight to one first place let’s say ten to one second place and let’s say five to two third place that triple should pay something like, I’m guessing, $400, $500, $600 around that range. If that triple pays only $150, right away they know that somebody knew something. [37:16] Too many people bet on that combination. They know how many people probably will bet on any certain combination. And when that gets skewed, too many people bet on one combination, then they know something’s up. Interesting. That’s like these new sports prop bets in the apps on gambling, on the apps on sports. If all of a sudden there’s a whole lot of money goes out on some team on the spread and too much money goes down in one place, then they know there’s something going on. Somebody knows something and they start looking. [37:48] Exactly. They start looking and you make a great point about today’s sports betting. If you have a basketball player, and again, this is not conjecture. There’s already been indictments on this. Let’s say the guy is supposed to have 11 rebounds in a game. All of a sudden, when he has nine, he tells the coach, man, I hurt my ankle. I can’t play anymore. Now, if the balance was normal on his under and his over, no problem. What do we all know happens? The under money bet on this guy is radical. It’s a 95 to 5 ratio. They know right away it’s fixed. And that’s what I believe the guy in Toronto, the Toronto Raptors was doing. And so many other ones were too, but that’s everywhere. We were involved in that way, way back in the day as well, to some degree. We heard so much about it. Yeah, interesting. [38:34] Let’s get into Carmine Galante. The probably most famous, certainly the most famous image, even more famous than Albert Anastasia of Carmine Galante laying there. He was the Bonanno, longtime Bonanno capo and had risen up in the ranks. And he comes out of the penitentiary and Rusty Rustelli is supposed to be the next Bonanno boss. And Carmine decides that he’s going to act like he’s the boss. So let’s talk about how this whole thing started a little bit. That is a great observation. And that’s pretty much how the ball got rolling with those guys. Here’s how we got involved in this. [39:12] We had one of our good friends who was helping us with the fireworks and going to the clubs and having nothing but fun. And then the one night when Tommy was at the club, the cops came in. And I know a lot of people think, oh, Cosa Nostra doesn’t mix with the cops. People will think that they don’t know what they’re talking about. Look at the convictions with gas pipe cases and everybody else. John had guys on his payroll that ended up getting convicted and stuff. [39:39] The cops and Cosa Nostra do work together. despite what everyone else says. Look at us with the fireworks, for example. So anyway, at the card game, what I was told from Tommy is they kept getting messages after messages. And again, these messages at that time would come in over pay phones. There were no cell phones. So you’d have a guy sitting at the pay phone. And as I’m told, most of the messages would be coded numbers. Let’s say Angelo’s number was 167. The guy would just pick up the phone, tell number 167, which is Angelo. [40:11] Another set of code numbers and that might mean hey the cops are coming over now the cops came into the club they came into the bergen and apparently they told everybody listen nobody here is getting locked up we don’t want information we just need to give you some news and from what tommy says because he was there playing cards at the time they told him that our good friend michael had died in a car accident and they wanted to know should they go and wake his dad up and And his dad obviously was in the life made guy and do it that way. Or did John and Angelo perhaps want to go out to the house? They gave him the option to do it. And John and Angelo, of course, jumped at that. And they, whatever they did, they went at the house. I don’t know if they waited till they woke up in the morning, whatever it was and knocked on the door or whatever. But so that’s what happens now at the wake, by the way, just to make the story a little bit more clear, there. [41:09] This was probably our fourth year or so selling fireworks. And every year we sold fireworks, we met more and more people. So many of it is detailed in the book. I can’t even tell you the list of people we met. And you name it, Tony Ducks, Corralo, all these guys. So we’re meeting more and more people. Two in particular that we started hanging out with because they liked us because we were just crazy, drinking, women chasing maniacs, were Baldo and Chesery. And that’s Baldo Amato and Cheshire Bonventry. They were with the Bananos. And we were hanging out with them. They grabbed my friend Tommy at the wake and pulled him away. And everyone’s thinking, oh, they’re really Sicilian. We call them the Zips. They’re tough guys. They probably just don’t want to show their emotions because they love Michael in front of everybody. We didn’t know what was going on. They informed my friend Tommy that our friend, Michael, did not die in a car accident. It was a basic, supposed to be a warning that turned into a hit. [42:12] And Tommy’s, that’s nonsense. The cops told us the car was off the road. The car was a crumpled mess. That’s nonsense. But Baldo insisted and said, no, these guys shot him off the road. So nobody believed any of this. But we came up with the conclusion of, hey, we’re friends with the cops. The cops will take us to the impound yard. Let’s see for ourselves. House so those guys went over there and what tommy says they found bullet holes in like less than a minute they found a couple bullet holes so they knew right away that baldo was telling the truth now all this was going on other people would tell us don’t trust baldo don’t trust chesery the sicilians are the most ruthless cunning backstabbers you’re ever going to meet and i didn’t feel that way and neither did tommy or the other guys that were involved with us our other friends aunt and The whole gang, Gonzo, we didn’t feel that way at all. We thought they really had our best interest. So. [43:08] That stayed quiet, but two of our friends swore on that day, no matter who did this to our friend, Michael, no matter who they are, we don’t care what their rank or anything. [43:19] We’re going to make them pay for what they did. They’re going to have to answer for what they did to our friend. And we know the rules. You can’t touch a maid guy or an associate without getting permission. But we kept everything quiet for another reason. Michael’s dad I referred to as a maid guy. Now, you talk about crazy. This guy was nuts. This guy had no fuse. He’s detailed all over the book. For example, when John O’Neill would tell him to go out and just talk to a guy, don’t hurt him. This guy owes us a couple thousand. Just talk to him. The guy would end up with two broken arms. This guy had no fuse whatsoever. If he ever thought for a minute that somebody had killed his son, the worry was, and I think the worry is correct, he would have gone out and just killed better than adult targets all over the place. Whether they knew anything about it Which 99% of them knew nothing about this He would have just started killing people He would have started a war So that was the reason why the bosses, Did not want him And to his death he never knew that this happened They kept it from him for that reason There was no stopping this guy would have gone on a rampage So that was a big factor in that, So Then you talked before about the card games And Angelo. [44:30] More of these messages came in And my buddy Tommy noticed it And he said, Angelo, what’s going on? And so don’t worry after the card game, I’ll walk you down and we’ll talk to you. Apparently after the card games, Tommy and Angelo would walk down 101st Avenue and have these long talks. And Angelo said to Tommy, the commission has authorized a hit on Carmine Galante. We got the hit. John is our lead. [44:54] We have to do it jointly with the Bananas. Sonny Red is there, and Joe Massino is going to look at the whole thing and supervise the whole thing. So bells went off on my friend Tommy’s head. All of a sudden, he got everybody together. Not me, of course. I was not there when this transpired. I was not there when they organized the hit. But he got the other guys together, and he said, look, this is the guy who killed our friend. We have no risk now because the commissioner wants this guy dead. So these guys came out with what Tommy detailed to me. And by the way, it wasn’t just Tommy who detailed this to us. Bubbles detailed it to us. And there’s one big distinction I need to mention here. Tommy wanted all of this out. He did not want his real name used. [45:40] However, Bubbles wanted his real name used. He used to hang out with general views people. And he told me, he goes, use my name. I want people to know that I did this. And after he passed and that’s why inside the book we do reveal his real name and where he lived and the interesting thing for me was Bubbles and Tommy had no idea that each one of them was talking to me and to a small degree Bart about this so the details that they both gave were exactly the same the most ingenious hit I’ve ever heard of in my life they had police help from the 8-3 precinct over in Bushwick. Apparently, there was some cop over there that hated, I think it was a family dispute of some kind. The guy who was being, I think his grandmother or aunt or somebody was being shaken down by the bananas. So we had that asset. We now had Baldo and Chesery, who were Galante’s top bodyguards. So our guys went out on surveillance for months. And the funny thing about the surveillance was, who else was doing surveillance at the same time? [46:47] John Gotti was, and so was his people. So there was times like when Tommy and the guys would be close to a certain place. And by the way, he was killed at Joe and Mary’s. But that is not the only place that these guys did heavy surveillance on. And it’s not the only place that Galanti hung out at. So the book names a bunch of other places that the surveillance was done. So these guys would be there, and they’d look down the block, and possibly John and Angela were there doing the same surveillance. So they had to leave. Otherwise, John and Angela, what the hell are you guys doing over here? So that was funny to me on that regard But our guys in my opinion Put together the most ingenious hit Down to every single detail. [47:26] Basically took out the police help to help with the zips. The alibi is another crazy part of this. At that time, we would like to do a lot of fishing. We went off to a place called Sentinel Riches in Long Island. And one time we were night fishing over there and we saw guys jump off the boat, get onto smaller boats and come back an hour or two later with bundles. Now you don’t have to be Albert Einstein to realize what they were doing. They were running junk and they were Colombians. Yeah. So I discussed it a little bit with the boat’s captain and he said, just don’t say a word. Don’t go near him. Keep you guys away. We almost had a problem because again, our guys were drunk and our guys were carrying and our guys will, we came close to having a problem. But Tommy put this together. He had the boat captain go out one day and again, he didn’t tell all the people that were with, he didn’t tell his cousin’s crew for Shaw, who was with us that day, our guys jumped off the boat onto a smaller boat, took that boat to the Oak Beach Inn, took stolen cars in on that day, the July 12th, 1979, and they did the hit. [48:35] So Tommy’s uncle was furious with him. He thought he was lying to him. He goes, you’re lying. You were not there. I put you on that boat, which he did. Our friends were drunk and they drove him there on the road. Morning and i picked you up when that boat doc said don’t lie to me you’re on the boat all day and that’s when tommy and again this is detailed in the book like crazy told everybody can you say alibi and what do you mean he goes yeah you just said we were on the boat all day that’s not true, jumped the boat went to the oak beach and took the stolen cars did the work and came back so that was that shocked everybody in the room apparently when tommy was forced to detail, everything that happened on the hit. He even detailed for them all the cars that were involved. He detailed how the marked police cars actually held parking spaces for our guys in front of the place. One was, my understanding, about a half a block north. The other one was about a half a block south of the location over there, which was 205 Knickerbocker. They held the parking spaces. Our guys rolled up. [49:37] And if there was something going on, like, for example, FBI surveillance or unmarked cops in the place, those cop cars were not giving up the space. Our guys would honk and flash at them. But if they did not give up the spaces, the signal to our guys was the place is dirty, leave. So we had a lot of built-in signals like that. And then when they gave up the parking spots, both of the cops moved from one north heading south, one south heading north. What did that do? That let them both take one more scan of the block. Is the block dirty? And if the block was dirty, they were going to blow the sirens and everything was off. But the details, again, that are in the book about this hit are freaking shocking how meticulous it was. [50:22] Interesting. I have one question that Galante’s guy, Cousin Moy, they called him, Angelo Prezzanzano, I probably butchered that, but he was off sick that day. Was he part of it or was he just off sick that day? I’m going to tell you, to be honest, I have no knowledge of that. I know that Boldo and Chessery were the primary bodyguards that day. Yeah, they were there that day. I actually have no knowledge, but the other couple of details that are just beyond fascinating, how our guys operated on this. For example, when the car pulled up with one driver and three shooters, one of the shooters, again, he wanted to be named, so we’re naming him. It was Bubbles. [51:01] And the other two guys, Bubbles was a very big-built guy. He would easily be spotted. Plus, he knew a lot of people in the city. He stayed in the car. The two guys that were normal-built, they went inside. And I want the listeners to understand how skilled these guys were at this hit. [51:19] They had provided Baldo and Chesery with dark jackets that day. Now, I’ve read some stuff that people said, oh, they had big, heavy leather jackets on. That’s a lie. They were lightweight summer jackets. And people said, why do that? The answer is because at that time, people were wearing white and pastels and light clothing. It was burning hot that day in the summer. And if you want to spot somebody in a restaurant, you want them to stick out like a sore thumb. So that was the motivation for those black jackets. Now, check this one out. And again, the book goes through this in so many more details. Our guys walked in prearranged with Baltimore Orioles baseball hats. Because again, keep in mind, Chesaree and Boulder did not have a great command of the English language. They didn’t really 100% know American customs. And we showed them Mets and Yankee hats that everybody has. So now we show them a distinctive bright orange baseball hat with a bird on it that nobody could mistake. Here was the signal. Our guys walked up to them face to face with these hats on. [52:22] Now, that was slick. That was slicker shit, man. It was smart because if the place was hot, if Boldo and Chesery realized there was too many maid guys in there or surveillance guys or FBI in there, they were to immediately tell our guys it’s too crowded today. Only get takeout. Only get takeout. The place is too crowded. That was a signal to our guys to walk out and to tell the people the place is hot. leave. These guys had multiple hot signals here that if something was wrong, they would do it. Now, if they didn’t give those signals, our guys were to turn their hats around. So they walked in with the hats like a normal baseball player. They walked out with the hats like a catch you would wear with his hat on backwards. That was to give Boulder and Chesery the signal, Boulder and Chesery the signal this thing was going down. Now, here’s the most fascinating thing about the story is Tommy recanted for us. That day, July 12th, 79, was supposed to be a dry run. [53:28] And they told everybody, just do it like it’s real. Now, we were all hoping that Bould on Chesaree would do it like it was real, and they did it. They walked out of the place, and they walked north. I believe in their minds, they said, this is a dry run. Nothing’s going to happen. Then they heard the shots, and that’s what happened. And I want to elaborate on this because, again, there’s so much built in here. One of the witnesses said that, and I’ll tell you who the witness was. It was one of the guys who killed his daughter, Torano. His daughter had said that, oh, I saw Baldo crouched over with a gun. Gary, you’re a former detective. You’ve got a scene with four people shot, three dead. And you have a witness saying that a guy was in there with a gun out. You tell me how the guy is not arrested at the very least and tried. And I’m going to give everyone the answer here of why that didn’t happen. And I think it’s pretty clear. [54:25] I’m convinced that the FBI had static surveillance on the place, just like they did to Mr. Neal’s club that we always call the, basically the FBI screen test. Yeah. That’s number one. And, or they had a guy up the street. So I believe what happened here was they looked at what this witness said, and then either their own cameras or a human agent that they had on the streets said, wait a second, we cannot charge these guys. I saw a bold on Chesaree, whatever the number would be, 200 feet up the street before the shots rang out. They’re innocent. They didn’t do the shooting. Otherwise, of course, you got a witness saying, I saw a guy behind a table in a gun in a quadruple shooting, triple homicide, and that guy’s not going to get arrested. So obviously there was something there. [55:16] I was wondering why. And I’m going to take another step for people, too. And again, terrible. Cosa knows the story ever told. But to take this one step further, the cop cars were there. There were two marked cars close in proximity when this went down. I think the FBI might have said, wait a second here. What just happened? One guy that we hate, Galante, is dead. Some other guy, a cap on a maid guy are gone. Look at our cameras. How could we do anything here? There’s marked cops here. I think the feds had to realize the cops played a role in this. [55:50] Let’s just kill it and move on. I think that’s possible. Now, the cop cars were also referenced by Tommy. He told us the meeting that they had. It was a life or death meeting, by the way. When John Gotti and other people went to that meeting, Tommy’s uncle and people like that, there was a good chance none of them were going to come out alive. The book details that Castellano, who everyone knows, wanted to kill John Gotti, had a cast of killers in that building. Roy DeMail’s people were in there. There were people in there that you couldn’t even believe. Nino Gadge’s people in there. Hardcore butchers. They knew how to dispose of and chop up bodies. So in that meeting, apparently what Tommy made clear, and again, we took notes, we went over this for hours, days, literally years. [56:36] Sonny Red and Delicato made the statement in that meeting because, again, Sonny Red and Delicato put in the beef, hey, you guys did this hit without us. John Gotti’s saying, fuck you. Excuse my language. Effu. You guys did the hit without us. Nobody knew who did this hit, and I’ll get to that later. What happened here was that Sonny Red and Delicato and his people made an immediate beef, and we’ll talk about that later, saying, hey, The commission said this is to be a joint hit Between the Bananos and the Gambinos And I can definitely confirm From what they told me, Banano people and Gambino people Were on this hit together and doing surveillance So when Galante got killed Sonny Red and his Banano people Were furious Because they thought John Gotti went off And did a hit against the commission’s wishes At the same time, John Gotti was furious At Sonny Red and his people Thinking they did the work Without them being notified But the thing that Tommy always stressed is, again, that meeting was a death trap. Castellano always hated Gotti. Castellano wanted Gotti out. And this was the chance to do it for breaking the commission rule. So Castellano had hardcore murderers there that day. Roy DeMeo and his crew. [57:49] Incredible. You know, Gadgi, a cast of murderers. And John Gotti being street smart. And again, this is fully detailed in the book. It’s just too much to talk about here. John Gotti had made some very heavy precautions himself. Going into that meeting. But what the catch for me was, Sonny Red and Delicato said something like, whoever did this hit was either the most incompetent hitman ever, or possibly they were zips from Montreal that couldn’t give a crap if they were shot at or in a police shootout or whatever. They just didn’t care. And then Tommy said, what if I tell you that those cops were in on the hit? And that silenced the room. And that’s when Tommy had to come clean and talk about everything about it. And it shocked the people that were in that run that this hit was done like that. But that’s, that’s really how this thing was done. Interesting. Guys, you got to get this book. I’m telling you, Made on Long Island. And there’s a whole lot more details, these behind the scenes details about the Galante hit with some real people involved. It’s a lot different story than what we’ve ever heard. I know that. And even people went to jail behind this. But it was mainly on the say-so of informants who, as we know, will pretty much say anything to g

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Do you think Len Sassaman and Hal Finney created Bitcoin?FEATURING:Thomas Hunt (https://www.twitter.com/madbitcoins)THIS  WEEK:$77,508 / $1 = 1,290 SAT - Bitcoinalhttps://bitcoinal.com/Analyst predicts Bitcoin doubling amid Fed's balance sheet expansion - TheStreet Crypto: Bitcoin and cryptocurrency news, advice, analysis and morehttps://www.thestreet.com/crypto/markets/analyst-predicts-bitcoin-doubling-amid-feds-balance-sheet-expansion'Finding Satoshi' Makes the Case for Hal Finney, Len Sassaman as Bitcoin Co-Creators - Decrypthttps://decrypt.co/365075/finding-satoshi-makes-the-case-for-hal-finney-len-sassaman-as-bitcoin-co-creators?amp=1Top U.S. Commander Says Bitcoin "Shows Incredible Potential"https://bitcoinmagazine.com/news/pacific-commander-calls-bitcoin-valuableScammers Target Stranded Ships In Iran With Bitcoin Feeshttps://bitcoinmagazine.com/news/bitcoin-scammers-target-stranded-shipsBerenberg Tells Investors To Put 45% In Gold, Silver And Bitcoin — Ditches Bonds Entirely | IBTimes UKhttps://www.ibtimes.co.uk/berenberg-asset-allocation-strategy-excludes-bonds-1793029Trump to host bash for crypto investors tied to his coin sales | Donald Trump | The Guardianhttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/apr/23/trump-crypto-memecoin-event-mar-a-lagoBitcoin 'Q-Day' Draws Nearer as Quantum Researcher Breaks Simplified Key - Decrypthttps://decrypt.co/365444/bitcoin-q-day-draws-nearer-quantum-researcher-breaks-simplified-key?amp=1Bitcoin's Quantum Problem Is Really A Governance Crisis In Disguise: UTXOhttps://bitcoinmagazine.com/news/bitcoin-quantum-problem-governance-crisis__________________________________________________________________________________World Crypto Network https://www.worldcryptonetwork.com/On This Day in World Crypto Network Historyhttps://www.worldcryptonetwork.com/onthisday/---------------------------------------------------------------------------Please Subscribe to our Youtube Channelhttps://m.youtube.com/channel/UCR9gdpWisRwnk_k23GsHf

I love an Anzac biscuit so much and this slice combines all the flavours of them with another Kiwi favourite, condensed milk! Thanks to Ripe Deli in Grey Lynn for the inspiration for this. Makes 20-24 pieces Ingredients Base 1½ cups rolled oats ¾ cups coconut ¾ cups plain flour ¼ cup sesame seeds 1½ tsp baking powder Pinch baking soda 150g butter ¾ cups brown sugar 2 tbsp. golden syrup Topping 1 x 395g sweetened condensed milk ½ cup brown sugar 100g butter 3 tbsp. golden syrup 1/3 cup walnut pieces Method Preheat your oven to 180C. Line a swiss roll tin with baking paper. Mix the dry ingredients of the base in a large bowl. Melt the butter, sugar, and golden syrup, and add to the dry ingredients. Mix well to combine. With wet hands, press all but half a cup of the mix into the tray in an even layer. Bake for 15 minutes. Make the topping while the base cooks. Heat all the ingredients except the walnuts in a saucepan and stir while it bubbles for about 10 minutes. Pour over the cooked base, sprinkle over the walnuts and bake for 15-20 minutes, or until top is browned and caramelised around the edges. Cool completely before slicing. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“The Six Who Did Not Die”: Eight flawless pearls, six native divers, and a captain willing to do the math — the sea keeps better books than he does. | #RetroRadio EP0637CHAPTERS & TIME STAMPS (All Times Approximate)…00:00:00.000 = Show Open00:01:30.028 = CBS Radio Mystery Theater, “The Waiting Room” (September 05, 1977)00:45:54.440 = Creeps By Night, “Six Who Did Not Die” (July 11, 1944) ***WD01:13:28.398 = The Crime Club, “Cowhide” (October 02, 1947)01:42:49.458 = Danger Dr. Danfield, “Sam hardy Makes a Bet With Death” (December 15, 1946)02:07:46.457 = CBC Deep Night, “Bonehouse” (August 12, 2005)02:40:56.361 = The Devil And Mr. O, “Big Mr. Little” (November 12, 1971) ***WD03:09:13.902 = Diary of Fate, “Peter Drake” (February 23, 1948) ***WD03:38:40.669 = Dimension X, “The Man In The Moon” (July 14, 1950) ***WD04:08:22.837 = The Strange Dr. Weird, “Man Who Talked With Death” (December 12, 1944) ***WD04:20:55.067 = The Eleventh Hour, “Actor”04:47:27.492 = Escape, “Confidential Agent” (April 02, 1949)05:16:54.125 = Show Close(ADU) = Air Date Unknown(LQ) = Low Quality***WD = Remastered, edited, or cleaned up by Weird Darkness to make the episode more listenable. Audio may not be pristine, but it will be better than the original file which may have been unusable or more difficult to hear without editing.CUSTOM WEBPAGE: https://weirddarkness.com/WDRR0637

This is an eclectic episode where we catch up on some of the news floating around. First, we talk about the new Neo Geo being released along with 10 games. The console itself will be 250 USD, and the games $90 each. Or you can get a bundle of the console, and all ten games for 1k even. Seems steep until you compare it to the price of the original Neo Geo: 1k for the console, 200 bucks per game in 1990 money. Personally, I have to ask: who wants this? In this day and age, is this anything beyond a collectors item? And then it hits me: that's exactly what they said about the original Neo Geo. Maybe the universe is healing. Then, we talk about the new, lower, Game Pass price, and finally we talk about Shuhei Yoshida's comments about Jim Ryan. They should shock people because comments like this just don't really happen in the game industry, and especially not from the Japanese side. Makes you wonder how poorly Jim's tenure is viewed if Yoshida casually dropped these comments.

Fanatics Premier Auction system is broken. No One knows when it will end- and they keep all lots open for what reason? Makes no sense.Oh yeah- and even if you can stay awake- good luck trying to win anyway.

Welcome back to the Mindful Hunter Podcast! In this solo Q&A episode, I dive into a massive backlog of listener questions, covering everything from controversial gear opinions to advanced backcountry tactics. We tackle some heated topics right out of the gate: Do you actually learn anything on a guided hunt, or are outfitters just there to punch your tag? Jay also shares his unfiltered, controversial thoughts on the new 7mm Backcountry cartridge and explains why ecosystem support is the only thing that keeps a new cartridge alive. We also get into the nitty-gritty of meat care, including Jay's counter-intuitive method for packing out and transporting meat for days without using a single cube of ice. Other topics include navigating treacherous alpine terrain, whether you can truly trust other hunters in the field, and how to stay calm and make good decisions when the pressure is on. Plus, get the latest updates on Mindful Munitions, the upcoming technical apparel launch, and some exclusive outfitting opportunities. Whether you're looking for gear reviews, scouting strategies, or just some honest, unfiltered hunting talk, this Q&A is packed with actionable advice to help you level up this season. Chapters 00:00:00 - Intro & Housekeeping (Apparel Blowout, Outfitting Spots, Mindful Munitions) 00:03:23 - What's the typical process for setting up a meat pack-out service? 00:06:03 - Have you done any testing with the SIG rangefinders fog mode? Does it actually help? 00:10:12 - How much benefit is there in hiring a guide when first starting out hunting? 00:15:57 - What kind of parameters did you have when deciding on pre-season scouting while still working a 9 to 5? 00:18:58 - When applying across the West, do you look at harvest success as a valuable metric? 00:23:00 - What winter shelter are you running this year? 00:24:03 - Take us through the process of purchasing a custom rifle build and bringing it back to BC. 00:25:17 - Any initial thoughts on the Outdoor Vitals quilt vs. Katabatic? 00:29:48 - Sitka down puffy review request. 00:30:15 - Navigable routes in the alpine: What are you looking for and/or avoiding? 00:41:00 - How do you stay present in high-pressure moments instead of rushing decisions? 00:46:12 - 7mm Backcountry: Yay or nay? Will we see a steel case revolution? 00:50:13 - TRT: How or where to start? 00:50:34 - Tips for black bear and mule deer hunting in a 12-ish year old burn. 00:54:29 - Any plans to do a late-season whitetail gear comparison of Sitka vs. Kuiu? 00:55:50 - Cooler size/selection and what does your meat care look like for multiple days? 00:59:14 - Funny that Kuiu got bought out by the same people that are elitist and against public land. 00:59:32 - Bone-in versus deboning after a kill (specifically mule deer and elk). 01:00:50 - Do you trust other hunters? 01:04:00 - Gear made by a non-hunting company that hunters use that a hunting company should redo? 01:04:30 - What's your personal hunting goal for 2026 outside of guiding? 01:06:21 - Makes sense to carry 12x50s, SIG Zulu 6s, and a mini spotter for deer? 01:07:58 - Dry area southern Alberta mountains or foothills for spring bear strategy 01:09:21 - Outro & Final Thoughts.   Jay Nichol jay@mindfulhunter.com https://www.mindful-reviews.com/ https://www.mindfulhunter.com/   Forged In The Backcountry https://forgedinthebackcountry.com/   Merch https://www.mindfulhunter.com/shop   Newsletter https://www.mindfulhunter.com/contact   IG https://www.instagram.com/mindful_hunter/   Podcast https://www.mindfulhunter.com/podcast   Free Backcountry Nutrition Guide Free Training Guide For Mountain Hunting https://www.mindfulhunter.com/tools  

Following a Twins day game, Jason asks the audience what new players should go do on their off day tomorrow? Then, a Wisconsin senator wants to make nationally streamed games more available to local audience. Makes sense, doesn't it?

For all those who missed out on London, see you in Miami next week!Notion, the knowledge work decacorn, has been building AI tooling since before ChatGPT, with many hits from Q&A in 2023 and unified AI in 2024 and Meeting Notes in 2025. At the end of their last Make user conference, Ryan Nystrom teased Notion 3.0's Custom Agents - and they are finally embracing the Agent Lab playbook!Sarah Sachs and Simon Last of Notion join us for a deep dive into how Notion built Custom Agents, why it took years and multiple rebuilds to get right, and what it means to turn a productivity tool into an agent-native system of record for enterprise work.We go inside the product, engineering, evals, pricing, and org design decisions behind one of the most ambitious AI product efforts in software today — from early failed tool-calling experiments in 2022 to agent harnesses, progressive tool disclosure, meeting notes as data capture, and the long-term vision for software factories and agentic work.We discuss:* Sarah and Simon's path to launching Notion Custom Agents, and why the feature was rebuilt four or five times before it was ready for production* Why early agent attempts failed: no tool-calling standard, short context windows, unreliable models, and too much complexity exposed to the model* The “Agent Lab” thesis: not just wrapping a model, but understanding how people collaborate and building the right product system around frontier capabilities* How Notion thinks about roadmap timing: not swimming upstream against model limitations, but also building early enough that the product is ready when the models are* Why coding agents feel like the kernel of AGI, and how Notion is thinking about “software factories” made up of agents that spec, code, test, debug, review, and maintain codebases together* How Sarah runs AI engineering at Notion (“notes from Token Town”): objective-setting over idea ownership, low-ego teams comfortable deleting their own work, and a culture designed to swarm around fast-changing opportunities* The “Simon Vortex,” company hackathons, and why security gets pulled in early rather than late* How Notion organizes AI: core AI capabilities and infrastructure, product packaging teams, and a broader company mandate that every product surface must increasingly work for both humans and agents* Why prototypes have become much easier to build internally, and how “demos over memos” changes product development inside a tool the whole company already uses every day* Notion's eval philosophy: regression tests, launch-quality evals, and “frontier/headroom” evals that intentionally only pass ~30% of the time so the company can see where model capabilities are going* What a “Model Behavior Engineer” is, and why Notion treats eval writing, failure analysis, and model understanding as a distinct function rather than just software engineering* The changing role of software engineers in the age of coding agents, and why the new job looks less like typing code and more like supervising a rigorous outer system of agents, PRs, and verification loops* How the “software factory” should work: specs, self-verification, bug flows, subagents, and minimizing human intervention while preserving the invariants that matter* A live walkthrough of a Notion Custom Agent handling coworking space tenant applications by triaging email, enriching applicants with web search, and writing structured data into a Notion database* How agents compose inside Notion: shared databases as primitives, agents invoking other agents, “manager agents” supervising dozens of specialized agents, and memory implemented simply as pages and databases* Notion's take on MCP vs CLI: why Simon is bullish on CLI's self-debugging nature, where MCP still makes sense, and how Sarah thinks about capability, determinism, permissioning, and pricing alignment* The evolution of Notion's internal agent harness: from early JavaScript coding agents, to custom XML, to Markdown and SQL-like abstractions, to tool definitions, progressive disclosure, and a much shorter system prompt* Why Notion cares about teaching “the top of the class,” building for sophisticated operators rather than abstracting away too much capability for everyone* How agent setup works today: agents that can configure themselves, inspect their own failures, and edit their own instructions — with guardrails around permissions* How Notion prices Custom Agents: credits as an abstraction over tokens, model type, serving tier, web search, and future sandbox costs; why usage-based pricing was necessary; and how “auto” tries to match the right model to the right task* Why Notion is not eager to train a foundation model, where they do fine-tune and optimize today, and why retrieval/ranking is one of the most important investment areas as more searches come from agents rather than humans* Why Meeting Notes became one of Notion's strongest growth loops: not just as transcription, but as high-signal data capture that powers search, custom agents, follow-up workflows, and the broader system of record for company collaboration* Why Notion is more interested in being the place where collaboration data lives than in building hardware themselves — and how wearables or other capture devices may eventually feed into that systemSarah SachsLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahmsachsX: https://x.com/sarahmsachsSimon LastLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-last-41404140X: https://x.com/simonlastFull Video EpisodeTimestamps* 00:00:00 Introduction and launching Notion Custom Agents* 00:01:17 Why Notion rebuilt agents four or five times* 00:03:35 Building for where models are going, not just where they are* 00:05:32 The Agent Lab thesis, wrappers, and product intuition* 00:08:07 User journeys, leadership, and low-ego AI teams* 00:13:16 The Simon Vortex, hackathons, and bringing security in early* 00:16:39 Team structure, demos over memos, and building for agents* 00:20:25 Evals, Notion's Last Exam, and the Model Behavior Engineer role* 00:27:37 Evals as an agent harness and the changing role of software engineers* 00:30:42 The software factory: specs, verification, and agent workflows* 00:32:18 Live demo: a custom agent for coworking space applications* 00:35:08 Composing agents, manager agents, and memory as pages* 00:38:15 Notion Mail, Gmail, native integrations, and tools* 00:39:43 MCP vs CLI and the cost of capability* 00:44:13 When Notion uses MCP vs building its own integrations* 00:47:43 The history of Notion's agent harness rebuilds* 00:55:35 Power users, public tools, and the setup agent* 00:58:01 Self-fixing agents, permissions, and “flippy”* 01:01:13 Pricing, credits, and choosing the right model automatically* 01:09:01 Why Notion isn't training its own frontier model* 01:14:07 Retrieval, ranking, and search built for agents* 01:17:27 Meeting Notes as data capture and workflow automation* 01:21:18 Wearables, hardware, and Notion as the system of record* 01:23:45 OutroTranscript[00:00:00] Alessio: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio founder of Kernel Labs and I'm joined by swyx, editor of the Latent Space.[00:00:11] swyx: Hello. Hello. We're back in the beautiful studio that, uh, Alessio has set up for us with Simon and Sarah from Notion. Welcome.[00:00:18] Sarah Sachs: Thanks for having us.[00:00:19] Alessio: Thanks for having us. Yeah.[00:00:20] swyx: Congrats on the launch recently the custom agents, finally it's here. How's it feel?[00:00:26] Sarah Sachs: We ship things slowly. So it had been in Alpha for a little bit and at the point at which is it's an alpha, um, there's a group of people that are making sure it's ready for prod, and then there's a group of people working on the next thing.So sometimes some of these launches are a bit delayed satisfaction, so it's quite nice to remind yourself all the work you did because we do have a habit of like. Being two or three milestones ahead. Uh, just ‘cause you have to be, you know, you can't get complacent. Um, but it's been great that people understood how this is helpful.And I think that's just easier in general building AI tools today than it was two, three years ago. People kind of get it and so that user education, um, there's just, it was our most successful launch in terms of free trials and converting people and things like that. It was really successful, so yeah.But there's a lot to build.[00:01:12] swyx: Making it free for three months helps.[00:01:16] Sarah Sachs: Yep.[00:01:17] Simon Last: It was definitely super exciting for me because it's probably the fourth or fifth time that we rebuilt that.[00:01:22] swyx: Yes.[00:01:23] Simon Last: And I mean,[00:01:24] swyx: you've been building this since like 20, 22.[00:01:26] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, like, it was even right when we got access to like GPT four in late 20 22, 1 of the first ideas we had is like, oh, okay, let's make an agent that I, we used the word assistant at the time, there wasn't really the word, the word agent yet, but, oh, we'll give an access to all the tools the notion can do, and then it, we run in the background like, like do work for us.And then we just tried that many times and it just. Was too early. Um,[00:01:48] swyx: I need to force you to like double click on that. What is too early? What didn't work?[00:01:52] Sarah Sachs: We were fine to, like, before function calling came out. We were trying to fine tune with the Frontier Labs and with fireworks, like a function calling model on notion functions.This is right when I joined. I joined because, um, we needed a manager as Simon was needed to be able to go on vacation. So, uh, that's, that's around when I joined, so you can speak much more to it.[00:02:11] Simon Last: Yeah, we did partnerships with both philanthropic and open AI at different times, uh, to try to, at the time the, I mean, when we first tried, there wasn't even a constant of like tools yet.We, we sort of designed our own like, like tool calling framework and then we tried to fine tune the models to, uh, to use it over multiple turns. Um, and because it, it didn't work well out the box, I think. Yeah. The models are just too dumb and the context thing was also way too short.[00:02:37] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:02:37] Simon Last: Um, and yeah, we just kind of banged our head against it for a long time.Uh, unfortunately it was always like, there was always like sort of. Glimmers that it was working, but um, it never felt quite robust enough to be like a useful, delightful thing. Um, until I would say, uh, the big unlock was probably like Sonic 3.6 or seven, uh, early last year. And that's when we started working on our agent, which we shipped last year.Um, and then, and then uh, uh, custom agents, kinda a similar capability and that, that one just took longer because we, we just wanted to get the reliability up a lot higher. ‘cause it's actually running in the background.[00:03:14] Sarah Sachs: And the product interface of like permissions and understanding, you know, this custom agent is shared in a Slack channel with X group of people and has access to documents that are surfaced to Y group of people.And the intersect experts, Y might not be whole. And so how do you build the product around making sure administrators understand that permissioning took multiple swings.[00:03:35] Alsesio: Everything is hard back at the end of the day. Yeah. I'm curious, like when the models are not working, how do you inform the product roadmap of like, okay, we should probably build, expecting the models to be better at some reasonable pace, but at the same time we need to, you know, you had a lot of customers in 2022.It's not like you were a new company or like no user base.[00:03:54] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean I think there's always the balance of, you know, like you want to be a GI pilled and thinking ahead and building for where things are going. Uh, but also you wanna be like shipping useful things. And so we always try to like, like keep a balance there.You know, we. We try to take clear, like a portfolio approach. You know, we're always working on multiple projects and, and we're always trying to work on, you know, maintaining things where that have already shipped, like, like shipping new things that are like eminently working well and make them really good.And, and then we wanna always have a few projects that are a little bit crazy. Um,[00:04:23] Alsesio: and what are the a GI peel projects that you have today? I'm curious about, uh, you don't have to share exactly what you're working on, but I'm curious what are things today that maybe in 18 months people will be like, oh, obviously this was gonna work[00:04:35] Sarah Sachs: 18 months.[00:04:37] Alsesio: Yeah, 18 months is, you know,[00:04:37] Sarah Sachs: it's a long time and Yeah. Yeah.[00:04:39] Simon Last: I mean, there's a number of things happening. I think one thing that's becoming more clear is I think like, like, uh, coding agents are the kernel of EGI, sort of, everything is a coding agent. Mm-hmm. I think that's, that's sort of one, one direction.Um, and then, yeah, the exciting thing about that is sort of your agent can sort of bootstrap its own software and capabilities and actually debug and maintain them. And so yeah, we're, we're, we're thinking a lot about that. And then, yeah, like, like another category of things that I'm, I'm really excited about is like, uh, we call the software factory also.People are using this, uh, this, this sort of word. Um, basically it just means can you create sort of like a, as automated as possible, a workflow for developing debugging. Mm-hmm. Merging, reviewing, and maintaining a code base and a service where there's a bunch of agents working together inside, and like, like how does that work?[00:05:28] Sarah Sachs: If you think back to your initial question, like, why did this take so long? I think something,[00:05:32] swyx: I didn't say that, but Yes. Okay. Go ahead.[00:05:34] Sarah Sachs: Why, what, what changed over the three and half years of trying[00:05:37] swyx: it? Exactly. Right. Because most people always say like, it didn't work yet. Then reasoning models came, then it worked.I was like, okay, let's go a little[00:05:43] Sarah Sachs: bit. That's, I mean, that's part of it, but I think the other part of it that I actually think is really what will set notion apart for every new capability is we have like. Two skills that are crucial when it comes to frontier capabilities. One is not letting yourself swim upstream.So like quickly realizing if you're just pressing against model capabilities versus not exposing the model to the right information, not having the right infrastructure set up. That and of itself is the skill of intuition. And the second is to see, okay, you're not swimming upstream. Which direction is the river flowing and what is like, how do we think ahead about the product and start building it even if it's not great yet, so that when it is there, we're ready for it.Right? And like those can sometimes feel like counterintuitive things. Like we can be trying to fine tune a tool calling model when they don't exist yet. And that the trick is to not do that for too long, but realize that there was something there. And we've had a lot of things which like, um, we're just like not swimming in the right direction with the streams.I think we had multiple versions of transcription before we got meeting notes, right? Oh, I gotta talk[00:06:39] swyx: about that. Yeah.[00:06:40] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. Um, and so. I, I, I think that like we, we really closely partner with the Frontier Labs on capabilities and we also have to have strong conviction on, as those capabilities move.Notion is about being the best place for you to collaborate and do your work. And how does that narrative change if the way that we work changes?Yeah.[00:06:58] swyx: Yeah. You told me you were a fan of the Agent Lab thesis, and this is, this is kind of it, right?[00:07:02] Sarah Sachs: Right. I show that thesis to so many candidates. Like I have it as like micro chrome autofill.Um, at this point, like it's one of my most visitations[00:07:10] swyx: because like, is this the, here's why you should work in notion and not open, open eye. I, it's like,[00:07:14] Sarah Sachs: here's, here's what's different about it.[00:07:16] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:16] Sarah Sachs: And here's why. It's not just a rapper. I actually think more and more people understand it's not just a wrapper.[00:07:21] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:22] Sarah Sachs: Um, and by the way, like in the beginning, parts of what we build are wrappers on functionality. That works well, of course, but that's not really the most, um. I would say that's not the product that, that drives revenue. And that's not necessarily always what users need.[00:07:35] swyx: I mean, you know, notion is the AWS wrapper, but like the, the wrapper is very beautiful and like very, very well polished.So[00:07:40] Sarah Sachs: like the analogy,[00:07:41] swyx: like[00:07:42] Sarah Sachs: the analogy that I've been coming back to his Datadog in AWS[00:07:45] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:46] Sarah Sachs: So, uh, Datadog could not exist with, without cloud storage. Right. That it's kind of fundamental that that works. Um, and AWS has like a CloudWatch product, but Datadog is an expert on understanding how people want observability on the products they launch.And we're experts in understanding how people wanna collaborate, and that's really where our expertise lies.[00:08:04] swyx: Totally.[00:08:04] Sarah Sachs: Um, regardless of the tools that we use,[00:08:07] Alsesio: I'm kind of curious how you think about implicit versus explicit expertise. I feel like Datadog is half and half implicit and explicit. It's like they understand across markets and industries what engineering teams usually look for.With notion, it's almost like more of the expertise is at the edge because you as a platform, you're like so horizontal that the end user is not really the same. Mm-hmm. Like with Datadog, the end user is always like, yeah, an engineering lead, a kinda like SRE related person with notion. It can be anything.So I'm curious how you put that expertise into a product versus, you know, obviously it, WS cannot build notion. It's, that doesn't quite work in this case, but[00:08:44] Simon Last: it's, it's a little bit differently shaped. I think, you know, a classic vertical SaaS, like the data is kind of like that. They understand their individual customer very deeply.It's kinda a narrow slice, um, notion has always been super horizontal. And our, our task has always been to sort of balance these two somewhat opposing forces of like, we're listening to our customers and what they want us to build. It's a broad slice. And then also we're thinking about like, okay, how do we decompose what they want into, uh, nice primitives that are, that are really nice to use and we'll, we'll get us like as much bang for the buck as possible.And then, you know. Maintain the whole system, make it all like, like super clean and nice to use.[00:09:22] Sarah Sachs: We still have user journeys. I mean, we still focus on like core. I actually think the failure of our team is when we focus too much on what are cools that are, what are tools that are[00:09:31] Simon Last: mm-hmm.[00:09:31] Sarah Sachs: Cool tools. I actually think that's when we make have the least velocity because you still need some sort of focus on a user journey.So like for instance, we'll all sit down every Friday and look at the P 99 of like the most token exhaustive custom agent transcript and just look at why it didn't do well and cut a bunch of tasks. Like we still focus on like, this has, like this should work. Email triaging should work. Mm-hmm. Right. And similarly, like when we're talking about before building, um, chatting, um, before we started filming about, okay, how can I do PDF export?Well that's functionality that then merits. Maybe we should build a tool that has access to a computer sandbox in a file system and the ability to write code. Right? Right. Um, but it's because we're thinking about the fact that our users to do their, to do their daily work, need to export PDFs, not because we're like, Hmm, I think a computer tool could be cool.Like, let's just see what happens. Mm-hmm. Like we, we have to focus on some user journeys, otherwise we just don't have like, enough strategy to, to prioritize.[00:10:29] swyx: I think there's a lot of like really strong opinions that you've had. Do you have like sort of like a towel of Sarah Sachs? Like, you know, like what, how do you run your team?Like I feel like you just have accumulated all these strong opinions. Obviously part, part of this is your, your token town thing.[00:10:43] Sarah Sachs: I think the TAs working with Service X is, um, you'd have to, it depends who you ask. Um, I think it depends if you're on my team or a partner Right. Or a vendor.[00:10:54] swyx: Yeah. There other people want to run their teams the way that you're Yeah.You're like bringing these things. And then also similarly, uh, Simon, when you did the custom agents demo, you had like, well, we've been using custom agents and here's the super long list of everything that we do. No humans ever read it. Right? That's what you said. I was like,[00:11:07] Sarah Sachs: yeah. So I think for, for me, um, something that I learned very quickly and became very comfortable with was that my job was not to be the ideas per person or the technical expert.My job was to make it so that everybody understood the objective, had a resource to help prioritize what they should work on, and had an avenue to prioritize what they thought was important. And I think that's true with all, all leadership, but I think especially on the AI team. Almost all of our best ideas come from prototypes, from people that have a cool idea because they saw a user problem, and it's a huge disservice if all of those ideas have to pass, like the sniff test of what me and a product partner or Simon and Ivan decided were the direction, right?Because a lot of what we're doing is leaning into capabilities, so. I think that's the first thing is like, I don't really view like the role of engineering leadership as like, uh, hierarchical, nor has it ever been, but especially now, like very willing to change direction based on, um, like proof is in the pudding.Yeah. And like, and I think we have rebuilt our harness three or four times. And when you do that, then the second rule of engineering leadership is like you need to build a team that's comfortable deleting their own code and is very low ego and is driven by what's best for the company. And, um, doesn't write design docs because they think it's their promotion packet.Right. And that's a culture that notion had long before I joined, but like our willingness to just swarm on different problems and um, redo things that we've built before because something has changed. Like, there's a lot of friction that can happen at companies when you do that. And it doesn't happen at Notion.And because it doesn't happen when new people join. Like they don't wanna be the ones that are saying, we shouldn't do this. I wrote that code. So then it's, you know, you, you create a culture that everyone thoughts and that culture comes directly, I think from Simon and Ivan though, um, because they're very open-minded.[00:12:50] swyx: Anything that you,[00:12:50] Simon Last: you'd add? I'm not a manager, like, like, like Sarah is. Um, a lot of my role is really to try to think a little bit ahead, make sure that we're, we're building on the right capabilities and then like the prototyping stuff. And yeah, it's really, really critical to always just be starting again.It's like, okay, this is new thing. What does this mean? What if we just rethought everything or wrote everything? And so I, I'm, I'm basically just doing that in a loop every six months.[00:13:16] swyx: Yeah. Do you believe in internal hackathons for this stuff?[00:13:19] Sarah Sachs: I think there's like two different versions. So one is like, we just have a, a, a solid bench of senior engineers that come and go on what we call the Simon Vortex and Productionizing what we built, right?Because when you're in the Simon Vortex, the velocity is super high. The direction changes daily, and it's meant to be like the equivalent of a SC Works lab. We don't need to do hackathons for that. We need to have senior engineers that we trust to come in and out of those projects. For instance, like management boundaries are really loose.Like you report to him, but you work for her right now. Yeah. That's something that when we hire managers, it's important they don't care about because we tend to form more structures. Yeah. Don't be too[00:13:54] swyx: territorial.[00:13:55] Sarah Sachs: We form more. It's after we ship things, not not before, just historically. Um, the second thing is we do have companywide hackathons.Actually we just had our demos day for the hackathon we had last week this morning. That's more for people that aren't directly working on the project, feeling like they have the time to pause and learn how to make themselves more productive or how they would use notion custom agents to build something.Or part of the hackathon was actually encouraging everyone across the company to build their own agentic tool loop, calling from scratch. Follow like an every blog post on how to do what I think because we want[00:14:26] swyx: just with the compound engineering one. Yeah.[00:14:28] Sarah Sachs: We want everyone to use cloud code in the company or whatever the coding agent they please and understand that fundamental.So we set aside a day and a half. We're all leadership, encourage everyone on their teams across the company to do it. So we have hackathons like that. I would say like kind of facetiously, like everything we build is a little bit like a hackathon until it graduates and puts on big boy pants and as a product ops rollout leader and has a assigned data scientists and stuff like that,[00:14:54] swyx: security review enterprise stuff,[00:14:56] Sarah Sachs: actually security reviews one of the things that we bring in first because it just slows us down way more and, um, causes a lot of tension and they build better product if they're involved early.So, um, that is probably the first person to get involved in something that's the[00:15:09] swyx: right PR approved answer.[00:15:10] Sarah Sachs: No, but it's not just PR approved. It like, um, um, it's[00:15:13] swyx: actually real. It's actually real. It's like, um, I'm just saying scar[00:15:15] Sarah Sachs: tissue.[00:15:15] swyx: Yeah,[00:15:16] Sarah Sachs: because like, you know, my background's also, I worked at Robinhood for a number of years.Yes. So like, uh, compliance and things like that, um, are a little bit more, you learn the hard way when it doesn't come naturally.[00:15:26] Simon Last: Yeah. I think the. The hackathon is really important for uplifting the general population, but like, if that's the only way you can build new things, you're kind of toast. I mean, it, it has to be like the daily processes, like, you know, building these new things.Um, and it has to be about, I think like, I think in the AI era a lot more leverage accumulates to the most curious and excited people. And so it's like we're all about just like activating that energy. You know, like if someone's protesting something on the weekend that they're excited about and it's important, that should be the main thing that we're doing.Yeah. Um, it's not a hackathon that we schedule once a quarter, it's just like, yeah. Daily process. Part of the culture.[00:16:02] Sarah Sachs: I mean, that's how we shift image generation and notion now. It was always this thing that would be kind of nice to have, but it wasn't really clear where that was necessarily aligned in product priorities.It'd be a lot of work. And we had someone on the database collections team, Jimmy, who was like. I really wanna do image generation for cover photos and inside notion. And we're like, if you wanna build it, like it's, do it please. Like we encourage you. We gave ‘em all the resources of working directly with Gemini and being able to like track the token usage and it working through endpoints.We gave them eval, support, everything, and then became a, a full project.[00:16:34] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:16:35] Sarah Sachs: That's why you can't have like ego as a, a leader. Like that's, that's how we work.[00:16:39] Alsesio: What's the size of the team today, both engineering and overall?[00:16:43] Sarah Sachs: I manage, uh, the team. That's what we'll call it. Core AI capabilities and infrastructure.That's about 50 people. But then we have per i partner teams that do packaging. So how it shows up in the corner chat versus custom agents versus meeting notes, that's another 30, 40 people. And, and then every team that has a product service at Notion that a user can interface with owns the tool that the agent interfaces with the editor team.The team that did CRDT for offline mode is the same team that handles how two agents, um, edit competing blocks. Mm-hmm. Right? It's the same problem. The team that built the underlying SQL engine is the same team that owns how the agent asks it to run a SQL query, and it does it performantly. And so from that regard, anyone working on product engineering is tasked with making them work for customers that are humans and agents because over time the majority of our traffic will be coming from agencies using in our interface, not humans.And so. Our objective is to make it so that the whole product org is building for agents.[00:17:40] Alsesio: Yeah. How has it changed internally? The activation bar is kind of lowered a lot. Like anybody can kind of create a prototype very, somewhat easily, especially if you're like an existing code base. Have you raised the bar on like what type of prototype people need to bring forward to gonna be taken?Not like seriously, but like, you know what I[00:17:58] Simon Last: mean? Yeah. I think the bar is lowered in many ways. Be like, one thing our, uh, our team built that is really cool is our, uh, our, our design team made a whole separate GitHub repo, uh, called the, the design Playground. And it's basically just to create a bunch of like, like helper components and you, uh, for, for quickly a throwing together UIs.And it's become like actually quite sophisticated. Like it has like an agent in there and like, uh, that's pretty fun. So like, we pretty much, like, they don't do mocks, they just make like, like full, full prototypes.[00:18:27] swyx: Here it is. It works.[00:18:28] Simon Last: They give you like a u rl. They're like, okay, all right. So we have to make the, like the real production version of that.Um, and then for engineers. A prototype looks like just making it a feature flag that actually works. Like that's sort of the bar.[00:18:39] Sarah Sachs: Something to understand that's really unique about notion. One of the reasons I joined we're super lucky is no one uses Notion in their job as much as people that work at Notion.[00:18:46] Simon Last: Of course.[00:18:47] Sarah Sachs: So I think there's very few companies, maybe if you worked on Chrome I guess, but like everything that we ship, we ship internally first and get a lot of really quick feedback. And also sometimes our dev instance is totally borked and you have to change a bunch of flags to get things done. And that's kind of like, but everyone, so people that do it ticketing, people that do supply chain procurement, recruiting, everyone is using the same instance of notion with like a lot of flags on for these prototypes people build.Um, and so we have this, Brian Levin, one of the designers on our team, I think evangelize this concept of demos over memos.[00:19:18] swyx: Ooh, too[00:19:20] Sarah Sachs: good. Um, which has been, uh, very good for building demos, and I think it's put a big pressure point on us to have really strong product conviction, because if anything can be demoed, you really need a strong filter of making sure that if you know, you're doing X amount of work, you're making the, you're, you're focusing on one tower, you're not just building a really flat hill.Right. That's actually where I think there has to be more conviction from our PMs, um, and our designers and, and well, the company really to have conviction of what journey we're going on.[00:19:52] Simon Last: But overall, I feel like it works pretty well. Like people, almost all the engineers have good enough taste to realize that like, this prototype doesn't actually make sense in the product, or, or it does.So it's not that common that I would see a prototype. It's like, oh, this makes no sense. Mm-hmm. It's like, you know, people are doing reasonable things and, and, and then it's just a matter of. Which things we build first and then often just, just figuring out how to turn it on and off. There's our, in the, in our like experimental chat ui, there's this, there's probably like, like a hundred check boxes in there.[00:20:22] Sarah Sachs: Kills me[00:20:23] Simon Last: the things you could turn on and off.[00:20:25] Sarah Sachs: Uh, but I think that, okay, so that is kind of true, Simon, but like being the person that manages the evals team, like there is a level of intensity that it adds to the platform team. So, you know, if we're gonna do image generation and notion, all of a sudden the way that we do attachments and the way that we, um, our LLM completion like cortex talks and expects tokens back and now it's getting images back.Like there's a lot of platform work that we do need to, like solidify a little bit. So sometimes it'll be in dev for a couple weeks before it makes it to prod just because we still have to like, make it robust, make it HIPAA compliant, ZDR compliant, figure out the right contracting with the vendor, whatever it is.And we need to eval it because we want the team. To still maintain what they build. That's the one thing is like if we have a bunch of prototypes, it can't just be like a small group of people that then maintain whatever end prototypes. So we have invested a lot of people in an eval and model behavior understanding teams that, we call it agent dev velocity.So your dev velocity building agents can be faster if we invest in that platform. And so we have a whole org dedicated to Asian, um, platform velocity so that you can build your own eval and then maintain it once you ship it. So if a new model release comes out and we, every[00:21:38] swyx: team maintains their own eval,[00:21:40] Sarah Sachs: we maintain the eval framework.Every team owns their own evals and a lot of them we've integrated to Optin, to ci, or we run them nightly and we have a team, uh, a custom agent that triggers to a team to look at the major failures. That's really critical because if we have like all these different surfaces now, a lot of it's on the same agent harness, so it's easier to maintain.It's just packaging of different agent harnesses, but new functionality of the agent. Let's say that like we wanna update like. Uh, you know, they deprecated, sonnet, um, four or whatever it is and we need to auto update. Are[00:22:11] swyx: they already? That's so, okay. Yeah. Actually wasn't that long ago.[00:22:14] Alsesio: Theywere[00:22:14] Alsesio: just 3.5.[00:22:15] Sarah Sachs: 3.537. Just got deprecated.[00:22:18] swyx: 3 7, 5 0.2 or, yeah. No,[00:22:20] Sarah Sachs: it's not. 5.2 is five point. Five point no. Yeah, five four is 40% more expensive than five two. So if they deprecated five two, you would hear they can, you would hear from me about that one. Um, but, uh, another conversation to have.[00:22:35] swyx: I have a cheeky evals question for you.Have you noticed any secret degradation from any of the major model providers?[00:22:40] Sarah Sachs: Secret degradation,[00:22:42] swyx: like. During the War Bay, when it's high traffic, it suddenly gets dumber.[00:22:47] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. I mean, not just between the, I mean, we definitely notice flakiness, we've definitely noticed, particularly for some providers, that things are slower during working hours and[00:22:57] swyx: there's a latency argument.Yes. Not a quality argument.[00:22:59] Sarah Sachs: No. I think the quality difference that's interesting is, um, even though companies that say they're selling the same, a, it's really into like quanti quantization, but like companies that say they're selling the same model through different vendors, whether it be through first party or Bedrock, Azure, et cetera.We do see different qualities sometimes, and that's not necessarily what's advertised.[00:23:21] swyx: Yeah. Kidney went to the point of like, if we, they shipped like this, like eval across all the providers and it was like very obvious we were secret equalizing and it was very,[00:23:28] Sarah Sachs: yeah. But[00:23:29] swyx: that's very embarrassing.[00:23:30] Sarah Sachs: You know, um, we hire Subprocess to figure that out for us.So we just wanna understand where it's regressing or where it's optimized. And sometimes we're okay with regressions that optimize latency if they're the appropriate regressions. Our job is to make sure we have the evals to understand the changes that are important to us. And even like when we're partnering with labs on pre-releasees of models, they'll send us multiple snapshots.And this is less about quantization, but more just regressions. Like they have shipped models that were not the snapshots that we wanted, and they have changed the snapshots that they shipped based on the feedback that we give. Because our feedback tends to be more enterprise work focused and not coding agent focused.And definitely those can be bummers, like, you know, uh, we know that this wasn't the version you wanted, but we'll help you make it work. I mean, we always make it work, but that definitely happens.[00:24:16] Alsesio: Yeah. Do you have, um, failing evals that you're just hoping, oh, that will have success eventually when a good model comes out?[00:24:23] Sarah Sachs: Uh, I mean, yeah. So I think. I mean, I could talk about this for 60 minutes, so I will limit myself. I think it's a real issue when people say evals and it's just like, that's quality, that's like unit, I mean, it's like saying testing. It's not just unit tests, right? So. We have the equivalent of unit test.Regression test. Those live in ci, those have to pass a certain percent, you know, within some stochastic error rate. Then we have, as you're building a product, evals of these aren't passing right now, and this is launch quality. So we have a report card and we need to, on these categories, you know, be it 80 or 90% of all of these user journeys to launch, and then what we have what we call frontier or headroom evals, where we actively wanna be at 30% pass rate.And that's actually been a effort that we took in partnership with philanthropic and OpenAI in the past maybe two or three months, because we actually hit a point where our evals were saturated and we weren't able to really give insightful feedback other than it wasn't worse. And not only is that not helpful for our partners, it's not helpful for us to understand where the stream is going.You know, going back to that analogy. And so we spent a lot of time thinking about. What notions last exam looks like, right? Mm-hmm. Not just humanities, last exam. Ooh, notions last exam. Mm-hmm. And, um, there's a lot of, you know, dreams about what that would look like. I know we've talked a lot about benchmarking, um, swix, but, uh, yeah.Notions last exam is a big thing inside the company and we have people, full-time staff to it exclusively. Mm. We have a data scientist, a model behavior engineer, and an full-time, um, evals engineer just dedicated to the evals that we pass 30% of the time.[00:25:56] swyx: What you're hiring for[00:25:57] Sarah Sachs: MBEs? I am hiring[00:25:58] swyx: What is an MBEA[00:25:59] Sarah Sachs: model?Behavior Engineer Model. Behavior engineers started with a title data specialist before I joined when they were working with Simon on like, uh, Google Sheets and like Simon just needed someone to look through Google Sheets and say, yes, no, this looks bad. This looks good. Right? And so we hired people with kind of diverse linguistics background.We had like a linguistics PhD dropout. Mm-hmm. And a Stanford ate new grad. And they're amazing. And they formed a new function basically. And over time we've built a whole team, um, with a manager who's now kind of reinventing what that role is with coding agents. So they used to be kind of manually inspecting code.Now they're primarily building agents that can write evals for themselves or LLM judges. There's a really funny day I can send you the picture where Simon, about a year and a half ago, was teaching them how to use GitHub. Um, and they're on the whiteboard and it was like, okay, I think it would be so much faster if our data specialists learned how to use GitHub and like learned how to commit these things in Dakota.And, and that was then and now I think, you know, coding has been a lot more accessible. Um, but moving forward it's this mix of like data scientist PM and prompt engineer because there's craft in understanding like even like what models can and can't do things. How do we define like that headroom? How do we define like what a good journey is?Um, is this model better or not? Why is this failing? There's some qualitative work, but then there's also like a lot of instinct and taste to it, and that's not necessarily software engineering. And so we have like very firm conviction and we have had for a number of years now that that is its own career path and we have always welcomed the misfits, so to speak.So we really firmly believe that you don't need an engineering background to be the best at this job. And that's what's quite unique about this particular role.[00:27:37] Simon Last: Yeah, this is something that I've been pretty excited about recently is we made an effort basically to treat the eval system as like an agent harness.So if you think about it, like, you know, you should be able to have an agent end-to-end, download a dataset, run an eval, iterate on a failure, debug, and, and then implement a fix. And ultimately you should be able to, you know, drive the full time process with a human sort of observing the, you know, the outer uh, system.So yeah, we went, went pretty hard on that. And that's, that's worked extremely well so far. It's like basically just to turn it into a coding agent, uh, uh, problem.[00:28:11] swyx: Your coding agent or just whatever[00:28:13] Simon Last: harness No coding agent. Yeah, code, cloud code. It should be totally general. Yeah. I think if it would be a mistake to like, like fix it on any, any particular coding agent.At the end of the day, it's just like CLI tools.[00:28:21] Sarah Sachs: It's like the same way that you would've a coding agent write the unit test. You should have a coding agent write the eval.[00:28:26] swyx: Yeah.[00:28:26] Sarah Sachs: But there's a lot of supervision in that still. We just don't believe that supervision has to come from software engineers because a lot of it is like, um, kind of you XREE and whatever, and these are the people that also triage failures and tell us where we should be investing next.[00:28:40] swyx: Yeah. I'm gonna go ahead and ask a spicy question. Is there a data, there are no software engineers at Notion.[00:28:46] Simon Last: Um,[00:28:46] Sarah Sachs: what does it mean to be a software engineer?[00:28:47] swyx: Exactly.[00:28:48] Simon Last: I mean, I think the way things are going is like we're on some continuum where. If, if you look back three years ago, humans were typing all the code and then we had auto complete, you're typing list of the code.Then we had sort of like filling agents, filling lines, and now we're getting into like agents doing longer range tasks where you can debug and implement a fix and then verify it works and you know, get your, get your PR even like, like Merion deployed. I think we're sort of just moving up the abstraction ladder and then the human role becomes more about observing and maintaining the outer system.There's a string of agents flowing through, like me prs what's going off the rails. Like what do I need to approve? Is there like a learning or memory mechanism that that works? So it's kind of a hard engineering problem. There's a, you know, there's, there's a lot to do there. I think we're just sort of moving up stack[00:29:34] Sarah Sachs: the same transition machine learning engineers have made, right?Like I haven't looked at a PR curve in a while.[00:29:39] swyx: Yeah. You used to do this stuff and now, um, auto research can do it,[00:29:42] Sarah Sachs: right? Like I think it depends on what you define as a software engineer.[00:29:46] swyx: Yes. It's, that's changing for sure.[00:29:49] Sarah Sachs: I think every software engineer in notion this summer went through like this, um, sheer, um, one of our engineering leads of the company called it, like every software engineer is going through the, the, uh, identity crisis that every manager goes through, where all of a sudden they realize their ability to write code is less important than their ability to delegate in context switch.And I think that is a transition out of being a software engineer. But[00:30:12] Simon Last: yeah. Yeah, there's a critical difference to being a manager, which is that like, it is actually very deeply technical. The problem, you know, humans are very like, like, like fuzzy and you can't like treat a team of humans like a, like a rigorous system where like, you know, prs like, like flow through and can be in like a block status and then what happens when they're blocked, right.With a set of agents, you actually can do that. And, and, and I think it's actually, there's a lot of interesting technical rigor that that goes into that it's like it's a technical design problem. Ultimately.[00:30:42] Alsesio: What is the design of the software factory that you're building?[00:30:46] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, I think we're. Trying a lot of different things.I mean, ultimately you want to design a system that requires as little human intervention as possible, but like still maintaining the in variance that, that you care about. So yeah, we're exploring a lot different ideas there. I mean, I think I could talk about a few things I think are important there.Like, one thing I think is really important is, um, having some kind of like specification layer you can just commit marked on files. Mm-hmm. That works pretty well, but[00:31:15] swyx: it's nice to be notion man. I'm just saying like the spec, like Yeah. The natural home for specs is notion.[00:31:21] Simon Last: Yeah. Right. It can be a database of pages.Yeah. I mean, it needs to be something that is, you know, human readable and I viewable and I think that's pretty key. Another really key component is like the, the self verification loop. Yes. You need really, really good testing layers, basically. And that's a really deep, uh, uh, problem. But by getting that right, you know, and then, and then it's kinda like the workflow of like.What happens when there's a bug? How does it flow into the system? Like, is it like a subagent working on it? How does it make a PR and how does that get reviewed? And me, and then, you know, so there's like the, the flow or process.[00:31:56] swyx: Yeah. Cool. Uh, you know, one thing we did work out before you guys came in was this demo or this[00:32:01] Simon Last: agents[00:32:02] swyx: agent demo.Uh,[00:32:03] Simon Last: so every,[00:32:04] Alsesio: every time we do an episode, we try the product. Right. I don't think there's ever been an episode that I haven't tried. Yeah. Um,[00:32:11] swyx: and we, we try, try is a, a big word. Like since day one lane space has been on Notion, but this is the, this is the net new thing. Yes.[00:32:18] Alsesio: So this is for Nel Labs, which is the space we're in.So next week we're opening applications for tenants. So there's a web form, let me, we got this form done here. Uh, so, uh, before. Uh, the workflow would be I get an email, then I look at the person. It was like, should I spend time talking to this person? Then I respond, they respond back. So I build this. So the name it came up for on its own.Can you maybe h how do, how does it come up with its own name?[00:32:43] Simon Last: Yeah, that's a pretty app name. It's, it, it is just a random, it's a random, a name generator.[00:32:47] Alsesio: Oh, that's funny. It just came,[00:32:49] Simon Last: the fact that it picked that is, is kind of hilarious. I'm pretty sure it's just determined,[00:32:54] Sarah Sachs: resilient collector. I, I think I've never looked at the code for that.I've never second guessed it. I think it's kind of like a madlib situation.[00:33:00] Simon Last: Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. It's, it's totally a, a deterministic. Oh, I thought it was great. Yes. Although, although when the, if you use the AI to set itself up, it can update its own name, so. Okay. Um,[00:33:11] Sarah Sachs: how did you create it? It, did you just do[00:33:12] Alsesio: classroom?I,[00:33:13] Sarah Sachs: okay.[00:33:13] Alsesio: I did, yeah. I'll say just check my inbox for applications for a coworking space. Keep a people, so it created the database for me. Which I have here. And I guess database is like an notion table because everything is notion. Um, and then whenever um, an email comes in, like here, it just creates a new role for the person.Mm-hmm. And then it uses web search to enrich the mm-hmm. The profile. So it kind of like searches the web and it's like, this is who this person is, this is when they say they wanna move in and kind of updates everything else. This is, I mean, it's not a GI, but to me, I don't wanna do this work. So it feels like, I mean, it took me maybe like 15 minutes to set up the whole thing.Um, and I really like that most of the information should live here. You know, it is not like some other tool asking me[00:34:01] Sarah Sachs: Yeah.[00:34:01] Alsesio: To like, bring my stuff there. It's like I would've probably already created an ocean thing.[00:34:06] Sarah Sachs: Mm-hmm.[00:34:06] Alsesio: So[00:34:07] Sarah Sachs: most of our biggest use cases and gains are from. That extra layer of human involvement in the process to make it so right.And so like one of our biggest use cases is bug triaging. So if someone posts something in Slack, can you just have a custom agent that lives there that has its own routing constitution of what team this belongs to, creates a task in your task database and then posts in that Slack channel, right? Like that's like one of the first things that we built internally, I think.And it's completely changed the way that notion functions as a company. Nothing falls through, well, most things don't fall through the crack. We don't know what we don't know. But it's not replacing people, it's replacing processes.[00:34:44] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:34:44] Sarah Sachs: Right.[00:34:45] Alsesio: And I'm curious how you think about composability of these things.So the other one I was working on is like a. These filler. So whenever somebody signs up as a tenant, kind of he'll sell the lease for them. There should probably some agent that is like office manager agent mm-hmm. That can handle the request, make the lease, and then, uh, give them a ADA access to the office and all of that.How do you think about that feature?[00:35:08] Simon Last: Yeah, so I mean, there's, there's two ways you can compose. One way is by using like the data primitives. So you can, you know, you, you could give, you have one agent, uh, be writing to the database and there's another agent that's walked in the database. So that's, that's one way that they, they can coordinate that's like a little bit more decoupled and mm-hmm.Works really well. Or you, you can couple them. So I, I think it's actually not released yet. Releasing it like next week is, uh, in the settings for an agent, you can give access to invoke any other agent.[00:35:34] swyx: Hmm.[00:35:34] Simon Last: So you can have them just. Just, uh, uh, talk directly. So[00:35:37] swyx: you, was there a limit on like, number of recursions or just,[00:35:40] Simon Last: um, probably,[00:35:42] swyx: you know what I mean?Like, you can just get an infinite loop that way there's[00:35:45] Simon Last: some kind of Yeah,[00:35:46] Sarah Sachs: I think it's, there is actually a number somewhere.[00:35:49] swyx: I believe I'm just, you know, like, you're, you're, someone's gonna screw up. You[00:35:51] Simon Last: should you try to see[00:35:53] swyx: Yeah. I mean, everything's gonna be paperclips.[00:35:55] Simon Last: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But, uh, but, but that's really useful.Yeah. So we, you know, like I just, I, I helped, uh, someone internally the other day, they had, they had built like over 30 custom agents for, uh, for our go to market team doing all kinds of different things. You know, for example, like researching, you know, like, like filling information about, about a customer or like, like triaging customer feedback or like, uh, something like that.Literally over 30 of them. And, and then he, and then he even made like a database of all the agents and then he is like, okay, and, and now I'm getting 70, over 70 notifications per day with just the agents are blocked on various things. Uh, and then I was like, oh, okay, cool. You know, the obvious thing to do there is to make a manager agent,[00:36:32] Sarah Sachs: right?[00:36:33] Simon Last: That's gonna sort of blocks be another abstraction layer in between your, your, uh, uh, 30 agents. Uh, so yeah, we, we send out with like a manager agent and then has access to invoke all the other agents and it's sort of like, like watching and observing them and then it sort of, it just creates a layer of abstraction.So instead of 70 notifications per day, it's like, like five. And then, and then the manager agent can help like, uh, debug and fix any problems with the,[00:36:54] swyx: does this is a concept of like an inbox or something like piece, you're basically saying that they can message each other?[00:37:00] Simon Last: Yeah.[00:37:01] Sarah Sachs: Well[00:37:01] swyx: they use the system of record, which, which is[00:37:02] Sarah Sachs: notion, so we[00:37:03] Simon Last: actually, yeah, we didn't make any special concepts at all.[00:37:06] swyx: They're interested to the motion notifications that I would've got,[00:37:09] Sarah Sachs: they can just like write a task to a database that the other agent's task to listening to, or they can actually call a web book to the agent, like they can just add the agent. Okay.[00:37:17] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, this is something that, that we're still working on.I, I think we, you know, like, like generally, generally the way we do these things is, you know, you first make it possible, maybe like a sort of janky way. So I, I, I think the way I set ‘em up is like, you know, we created like a new database that was sort of like issues mm-hmm. That the custom agents were, were experiencing, and then gave them all access to file an issue and then the manager has access to, to read the issues.Um, and that works pretty well, essentially like, like give it its own like internal issue tracker just for the agents. And then, you know, if that becomes a, a concept that seems useful, generally maybe we will think of how to package it in. But I mean, generally we try to just keep it to composing the primitive if we can.You know, another example of this is we have no built-in memory concept. Memory is, is just pages and databases. And so if you wanna give a memory, just give it a page and give it. Edit access to that page and the[00:38:03] swyx: human can edit it. Agent can edit[00:38:04] Simon Last: it. Yeah. And so that works, that pattern works extremely well on it.And you know, depending this case, you can have it be just a page or it could be an entire database with, you know, or, you know, I can have sub pages is is pretty on what you can do with that.[00:38:15] Alsesio: So when I was setting this up, uh, I connected my inbox and it was like, do you wanna use Gmail or Notion Mail? And I'm like, I don't wanna use Eater, I just want you to do it.I'm curious how you think about, you know, notion, mail, notion, calendar, all of these kind of ui ux interfaces, full stack[00:38:29] Simon Last: notion.[00:38:30] Alsesio: Yeah. When like at the same time you have the agents abstracting them away from you in a way, you know, how do you spend like the product calories so to speak?[00:38:37] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty important that you don't have to use, not your mail to connect to the mail capability.So we can just connect to Gmail or, or whatever you want, uh, to use. And we're thinking of the mail service as being really great to the extent that it's really agent built, right? So maybe the mail app is just sort of a prepackaged agent that helps you automate your, your inbox.[00:39:00] Alsesio: Yeah, the auto labeling is great.Think[00:39:03] Sarah Sachs: the, when we, um, integrate with Gmail for instance, we have a series of tools available that are available via MCP or API to Gmail. When we integrate with Notion Mail, we have the Notion Mail engineering team to build us the, um, exact right tools that optimize latency, optimize performance and quality.They own that quality. Um, there's product leads there. They're directly thinking about the user problems that happen in mail. So it tends to be when we build integrations and connections, we build natively first. Um, and then think about, um, extending them generally just because it's also easier. Mm-hmm. Um, um, to build natively first.Um, so that tends to be how we phase things out.[00:39:43] swyx: Talking about integrations, you prompted me, so I gotta ask. M-C-P-C-L-I. What's going on? What's the[00:39:48] Simon Last: Yeah. Opinion. I think, I mean, I'm, I'm definitely bullish and excited about cli. I think there's a few really cool things about cli. So one really cool thing is like, um, is that it's in the terminal environment, so it gets a bunch of extra power.So it, you know, for example, it can like, like paginating and cursor through like long outputs. Um, and it has a progressive disclosure inherently. Uh, so, you know, you don't see all the tools at once. It's just, you see the CLI wrapper and you can like use the, the help commands and, and, and read files. And then I think the most important thing that's, that's super cool is that there, it's also inherently a, a bootstrapped.So if there's an issue, uh, the agent can debug and fix itself within the same environment that it uses the tool.[00:40:30] swyx: Mm.[00:40:30] Simon Last: Right. Like, you know, I think I saw a tweet this morning. Someone said, you know, my agent didn't have a browser, so I asked it to make all a browser tool and within a hundred lines of code, it gave itself a little browser, like, like wrapping the, the, the chromium API, um.That's pretty incredible. And then if there was a bug, it would just immediately try to fix it. Mm-hmm. Right. On the other hand, if you use an, you know, if you use like of, of the Chrome dev tools, MCP, I've had this issue where like, like sometimes the transport gets like messed up. If it gets messed up, the agent has no way to fix itself.It, it no longer has a browser, it's, it's not broken. Right. I think that's, that's pretty fundamental, but I would say like a lot of the, the bad things about it can be fixed. Uh, so I think like, as a progressive disclosure, that can be fixed with, with right harness. Like, it, it obviously doesn't make sense to show it all the tools all the time.That's not really inherent to the MCP protocol. It's just like how you wrap it and use it.[00:41:16] swyx: There's many poorly built MCPs because we didn't know.[00:41:19] Simon Last: Yeah, yeah. I mean it was just early, like, like the obvious thing is, uh, you know, to start with is, is to just show it all the tools and it's like, okay, now we have a hundred tools.Yeah. And like the tool calling actually works. So let's of[00:41:28] swyx: your success[00:41:29] Simon Last: give it a way to like, like filter to source the tools. So yeah, I would say like broadly speaking, I'm really bullish on cli. I'm still bullish on CPS and in a certain environment. I think in, in particular, CP is really great for when you want sort of like a narrow, lightweight agent.I think there's, there's definitely a lot of use cases where, where you don't want like a full coding agent with a compute run time. And also you want it to be like more tightly permissioned. MCP inherently has a really strong permission model, like all you can do is call the tools. A CLI is a little bit murkier.It's like, can I access the, if PI token are you, like, properly sort of like re-encrypt the token so it can't like exfiltrate it, it introduce a lot of like, like new issues, which are. Real and hard to solve. And MCP is just like the dumb simple thing that works and it that it's pretty good.[00:42:12] Sarah Sachs: I'll add two more perspectives, not from it working well for Notion, but how notion like commits to both platforms.Notion is dedicated to being the best system of record for where people do their enterprise work. So we will always support our MCP and so far as other people are using cps, right? So regardless of our perspective, we've put a lot of effort into our MCP and we have a fantastic team that we're building, um, to do more there.And the second thing I'll say, I think, um, we all think a lot, but lately I've been thinking a lot about making sure there's a value alignment and pricing, um, with capability.[00:42:43] swyx: Literally our next question[00:42:44] Sarah Sachs: and. Needing language to execute deterministic tasks feels wasteful and requiring on a language model to interface with third party providers seems wasteful for tasks that don't require it.And particularly because our custom agents are using usage-based pricing. We think of pricing as like the barrier of entry for use of our product, and we're quite committed to making sure that it's not wasteful. Um, not just because it's a bad deal for our customers, but it's also bad business. We wanna have as many buyers, like there's a, there's an elasticity of demand and so if we can have our agents properly execute code that calls on CLI deterministically, it's a one-time cost, right?Versus constantly having a language model integrate with an MCP over and over and over and paying those like repeated token fees and it's happening outside the cash window, then you're paying for it over and over and over and it's just kind of unnecessary and less deterministic when it doesn't have to be.[00:43:36] Alessio: Yeah, the open-endedness I think is like, the main thing is like, well, if I go write code to just call an API, I would never use an MCP. But then you need an NCP sometimes when you know what to call, but you don't want it to restart versus like, I think the it built a browser from scratch is like, it's great when you're doing it on your own, but like if your customers were having your AI write a browser from scratch every time and you had to pay the token cost of that, yeah.You'd be like, no, no. The Chrome dev tools CP is actually pretty great. Just use that. I'm curious, how do you make that decision? Like should it be. Just straight API call very narrow. Should it be an MCP? Should it be super open-ended?[00:44:10] Sarah Sachs: Do you mean for when we ship notion capabilities or when we add capabilities to[00:44:13] Alessio: notion[00:44:14] Sarah Sachs: AI or,[00:44:14] Alessio: I mean, you might have a capability that the only way to do is an open-ended agent, like an agent with a coding sandbox.[00:44:21] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. In Notion ai they're not explicit, not We also ship an MCP.[00:44:24] Alsesio: Yeah. Yeah. In B,[00:44:25] Sarah Sachs: yeah.[00:44:26] Alsesio: Internally. Okay. Like is there ever a discussion of like, we're not gonna ship it because we're not able to tie it down? Or are you happy to just like,[00:44:33] Sarah Sachs: um, no. I mean, there are a lot of things where we choose not to use MCP because we wanna add more high touch to quality.I think search an agent to find is like the largest instance of that, where we have. Um, slack and linear and Jira search and notion that is not using necessarily the search MCP functionality that is provided by those companies. And that's because it's quite critical we think, to how our agent trajectories work is for us to have a little bit more control on the functionality of the search journey.And so it usually comes from quality and there's a long tail of things and that's why we built an MCP client or an MCP server, excuse me, so that people can connect whatever they want. There's that long tail, right. But we, for search particularly, I would say that's like the primary entry point, but there are other connections as well that it's a little bit of secret sauce a

Stop Losing Leads: How to Fix Your B2B Startup Positioning Architecture Most B2B tech startups hit a ceiling when founder-led sales and marketing stalls growth. When they assess why their pipeline has stalled, they almost always assume they have a demand generation problem. However, a deeper analysis usually uncovers that the actual pain point is a fractured positioning and go-to-market (GTM) architecture. So, how can B2B tech startups diagnose and fix their positioning architecture to ignite more robust, predictable , and sustainable growth? That's why we're talking to return guest Adrijana Daragon (Founder, GTM Advantage), who shares her expertise and insights on how to fix your B2B startup positioning architecture. During our conversation, Adrijana shared some of the common pitfalls B2B that cause tech startups to fail, specifically focusing on the disconnect between product features and market needs. She stressed the critical importance of early market validation and understanding customer needs instead of obsessing over the technology and features. Adrijana also explained why founders must narrow their focus to specific ideal customer segments to ensure their messaging truly resonates with potential buyers. She concluded by highlighting the value of continuous iteration and learning from pilot projects to refine GTM strategies and attain scalable, predictable growth. https://youtu.be/mO99oSKyYGE Topics discussed in episode: [02:56] Why startups often mistake a positioning and go-to-market architecture problem for a lack of market demand [04:30] The reason targeting the right ICP fails if the customer lacks a sense of urgency or purchasing intent [05:17] How to identify when a founder becomes a growth bottleneck during the transition to a delegated team model [10:49] The danger of “fake validation” from startup ecosystems versus getting reality checks from actual buyers [21:30] Why increasing marketing budgets is ineffective if your messaging fails to connect with the customer’s problem [30:51] How narrowing your focus to a single industry enables faster iteration and more scalable traction [39:36] Using a growth mindset to define success criteria, turning pilot projects into long-term client relationships Companies and links mentioned: Adrijana Daragon on LinkedIn  GTM Advantage Transcript Adrijana Daragon, Christian Klepp Adrijana Daragon  00:00 Founders think about the go to market as a post, post activity, versus doing it early on, so meaning they are really of over focus on technology alone and thinking when the talk technology will be the product will be launched, that’s when the customers will come, especially like if the founders are engineers or coming from the medical background, this is the domain. This is where the this is the comfort zone. So they are really focusing on the technology. And that’s true, this is like bigger competitive advantage, but the commercial part, getting really early on understanding who are the market, what’s the feedback, even integrating that into a building technology so important. Christian Klepp  00:43 Most B2B tech startups hit a wall when founder-led marketing stalls growth. When they analyze where they went wrong, they almost always assume they have a demand problem. But when you look deeper, you realize that their real pain point lies in their positioning and go to market architecture. So how can B2B startups fix their positioning architecture problem to ignite more robust and sustainable growth? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking to Adrijana Daragon, who will be answering this question. She’s the founder at Go To Market (GTM) Advantage, who helps turn go to market into a predictable pipeline and revenue for B2B tech startups. Let’s dive right in. Okay, and off we go. I’m gonna say, Adrijana Daragon, welcome to the show. Adrijana Daragon  01:30 Hello. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Christian. Christian Klepp  01:33 Great to be connected again, Adrijana. And I’m gonna say thank you to Anna Wondany from Hey CMO, for connecting us. And I’m really looking forward to this conversation, because we’re going to talk about something that, on the surface doesn’t seem like it’s extremely important, but we’re going to start unpacking that, and then we’ll realize like, oh, wow, we really should be paying attention to this. Take some notes, learn and be inspired no? Adrijana Daragon  01:58 Yes, true. I’m really excited about it, and I can see really quite some founders can benefit from this knowledge. Christian Klepp  02:05 Absolutely, absolutely. So if you don’t mind, we’ll, we’ll just jump straight in, and I’ll ask you the first question. So you’re, I’m going to say, on a mission to help B2B Tech scale ups, grow and increase their inbound leads. But for this conversation, I’d like to focus on this following topic, and then we can unpack it from there. So the topic is how B2B startups can fix their positioning architecture problem. Now that sounds like a really fancy marketing term, but we’re going to unpack it now and then everybody will realize, like, how crucial this actually is. So I’m going to kick off this conversation with the following question. So Adrijana, in our previous conversation, you mentioned that most B2B startups think they have a demand problem, but in reality, when you dig deeper, what they actually have is a positioning and go to market architecture problem. So can you please explain that? Adrijana Daragon  02:56 Sure. So it’s highly depends on the stage the startup scale up is it’s different challenges. There are different challenges at the beginning, when there is early stage. Startup is about just doing different tests, trying the founders, typically the one that driving the sales and marketing efforts and connecting, getting the early feedback, validating it afterwards, when it starts to be already, you gain traction. You know, you had a successful especially in deep tech. It’s a lot about the pilot, securing both successful pilots, moving from the pilots to for to the ongoing client relationships. That’s when the it’s becomes much more about challenge of not only trying, testing different activities, but really seeing how what really makes sense, because there are a lot of challenges when you have a lot of activities, but we don’t bring the results, we don’t bring the revenue You want, and that’s especially when I work with startups. When we have both conversations, we have the initial demand, interest, especially interest. We have those conversations with potential clients, however they don’t convert. And that’s really where we are, kind of talking about the not originally positioning itself a problem, but it’s also about the go to market. And one big mistake clients do is when they focus on the target ICP (Ideal Customer Profile), but the target ICP, it doesn’t have a sense of urgency to buy, so the purchasing intent is not there. So that’s why, like a lot of times, you have a lot of internet conversations, everybody says, so your solution looks really interesting. However, that doesn’t result in result in the sales? Christian Klepp  04:55 Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, you brought some really great points there, and I add two follow up questions for you. So I think the first one, especially when you’re talking about startups, and I can’t help but ask you this question, but do you sometimes feel when you’re interacting with your clients, especially when you’re trying to address these problems with them? Do you sometimes feel that it’s the founder that is the bottleneck? Adrijana Daragon  05:17 It’s true as well. Like you know, as a startup grows as well, the founder learns a lot, and it’s also, it’s a big growth journey as well, big growth journey. And as well activities we do. The mindset also shifts with every stage. So there are like, different stages of a company. When it’s founding team, it’s small team. When you bring the first, highest, first outsource, outsourcing that depends already, where you need to communicate clearly that to delegate what you want actually to achieve. So these people know your vision and goals. That’s really when it starts to be the first bottleneck of really making when you are bringing more people, how the it can they can work most effectively as well as a team? Christian Klepp  06:08 Yeah, yeah, no, no, absolutely, absolutely. So that’s, that’s the first question. The second question is, and I know you and I both know what positioning is, but I feel for people outside the marketing discipline, they throw that, that statement or that word around very freely. So let’s just clear the air there a little bit, and just please break it down for us. What does positioning mean, and how is it relevant to inbound and revenue and other things like that? Adrijana Daragon  06:39 I think it’s there are multiple aspects, but this positioning is more. What do you want to stand in there, in in the minds of and hearts of other people? How do you want to be for them? Be remembered so it’s not only remembered so that people can say and articulate also well, what you do for yourself, uh, yourself. And then obviously, ideally, that also, it’s repeatable, that also the clients and the rest can say, and that’s not that easy sounds, but it’s not only one statement, positioning statement, and when it’s all done, positioning is a lot about work together, the about the ICP and for the ICP, so ideal client profile? And that’s a lot about understanding, especially if it is multiple industries, multiple especially on enterprises or like, there are big buying cycles, who are the right people. So it’s a buying center. There are a lot of people who are users, who are economical buyers, decision makers. So this is a lot about work on this ICP and value propositions for each of them will be different. So the positioning work also includes this value proposition, especially linking what’s the value, what’s the value, what are the problems they have, and how you help your solution helps that to work. So it’s like customer centric communication about the solution, which is very hard sometimes for the tech startups, who are typically over investing in the technology, and they talk about the features, but not so much in the customer language, about really deeply understanding customer understanding who they are and what they do, what are the problems and how it solves? And the big missing piece, and which is what I have in my methodology, where I work, and this is really important, crucial part not to miss, is the part of when, not only who, but then, and that when part is about urgency, sense of urgency. Do does the target, ICP, know that we have this problem? We are aware about it. Do they actively seek solutions? And you are at this stage, at this stage, so because the right person, but the wrong moment, zero outcome. So it’s, the sale will not be done. So it’s, this is especially important. While a lot of pilot conversations, like after discovery calls stall is because of this that they have this interest. However, the urgency is not there, and it’s a lot in especially with good AI solutions, or, like really talking about long term innovations, because it requires a lot of change of the behavior system processes, how they work currently, with how we do business. Currently, be aware. But this is this problem. But are we really actively looking to change solution? And currently that’s very important part of as well work of his overall positioning, because that will mean otherwise, you just have a lot of conversations, conversations, and really very small amount of them, lead. Leading to the really close, close deals. Christian Klepp  10:03 Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. I like how you said, like, right person, wrong time, that almost sounds like dating situation. It’s also transferable to the world of like, customers, right? And that’s absolutely true, because if you identify, if you identify the right target audience, but this is not the right time, right? Because it’s a different because you always have to look at the different stages of their journey, right? Adrijana Daragon  10:25 Yes. Christian Klepp  10:25 And unfortunately, in B2B, whether it’s tech or otherwise, the buyer, the buyer cycles tend to be a bit longer, right? Adrijana Daragon  10:35 Yes. Christian Klepp  10:36 Absolutely so, based on what you said, and I know you brought up already one of them, but like, based on what you’ve said in the past couple of minutes, what are some of the key pitfalls you would say B2B marketing teams need to avoid, and what should they do instead? Adrijana Daragon  10:49 Yes, so for me, really the I see that founders think about a go to market as a post, post activity versus doing it early on. So meaning they are really of over focus on technology alone and thinking when the talk technology will be, the product will be launched, that’s when the customers will come. That’s the one that typically, especially like if the founders are engineers or coming from the medical background. This is the domain. This is where they this is the comfort zone. So they are really focusing on the technology. And that’s true, this is like bigger competitive advantage, but the commercial part, getting really early on understanding who are the market, what’s the feedback, even integrating that into a building technology so important. So that’s the common pitfall about starting it early. It needs to be still very lean in beginning, it’s more lean. And one of the key things of lean activities is about thinking who are the customers, exactly who are the right customers, and then having that early validation. So it follows also to the second point. So one was early. Think about go to market earlier than when you typically do. Second is real versus fake interest. So what I mean, a lot of founders live in them more, sometimes in the bubble of their ecosystem, meaning like they are get the early positive feedback from incubators, accelerators they are in, as well the different support groups, plus also our startup founder saying, Oh, your solution. Can you give me feedback on your solution? Yes, it sounds interesting. Your technology is really interesting. Yeah, it should be interesting, and that’s what we take it as a given feedback. Okay, I validated. I got this initial interest. However, this is not the target audience who would actually buy so these are the kind of I call it a fake validation. It’s good to get also support system. To get this, because it’s really long journey entrepreneurship and having building the startup, you need this support system. However, you also need to have reality checks. And the reality checks are really thinking and going in the market and having conversations, if you are having a solution, let’s say in medtech, selling to the hospitals, so then going and actually talking to you. How does it sound? That feed? Obviously, it’s harder to get into that contact. There are some ways where we could do, do it, but this is really very critical moment when you get the actual feedback from the person who would will in, will be so valuable in creating your product. And then also, what are the different criteria they look at, what is really the what are the propositions we are looking at and how we make the decisions, and that’s very important as well, to make sure that you get that early on. So these are the few pitfalls. I would say. Christian Klepp  14:14 These are the few pitfalls, but they are super important. Adrijana Daragon  14:17 Oh yes. Christian Klepp  14:18 They’re so important that I have to ask you some follow up questions. Okay, so based on the first one right when you’re talking about who are the right customers and getting that early validation, how, in your experience, is there a right way to get early validation? Adrijana Daragon  14:35 It’s there is not only one way, there are many, many ways, but it’s just very important. Is also the mindset of it’s active listening. It’s more about you have your own idea and you’re in love with your product. That’s why you have a startup. It’s also very important to be open for the feedback, and good and bad feedback is also very important. So there are some a typically like also for the research, where you don’t guide the questions yes or no. You want to dig deeper. That’s also very important. It’s more, I think it’s the mindset, where you go you really eager to learn. You go there to eager to learn and to really listen and to understand. That’s the journey, when you want to understand your potential client, how you can really make the life easier. That’s the way. It’s a little beyond going journey where it’s really almost saying that the product market fit happens also a very similar in similar time. Then you can describe and talk the problem of the customer better than the customer himself or herself. So that’s the it’s a journey so you will but this is like really knowing that, that it’s important to hear from them, versus have only the inside view, which is and really seeking those conversations and have this open mind mindset is super important. Christian Klepp  15:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that’s absolutely right. I totally agree with that. Okay, so that was the first follow up question. The second follow up question, which I think is so important, based on what you said, this reality check, right? Because, you know, we, I have some experience with this as well, like, you know, it’s especially talking with a founder, and they’re in their team, and I always, I always call it like the internal high five, right? The internal High Five means, okay, we built a great product. Boom, fantastic. And then, and then internally, it’s like, I believe the market needs this because of the and I don’t agree that they need this because of what, whatever the reason. And everybody internally agrees. But you and I both know that, as marketers, it doesn’t help them and it doesn’t help us to just agree with a lot of these I’m calling them internal hypotheses. So from your experience, how do you get these startups, the founders and their teams to accept that while you can have this hypothesis, you also need to have a proper reality check to validate everything that you’re saying internally. Because sometimes as you, as you well, know not all founders, but many founders. Is it the mindset internally is, my baby is the most beautiful baby in the world. Don’t you dare insult my baby. All right. So how do you get them out of this mindset? How do you get them to be like, okay, you know, in order to grow, in order to scale, you have to be open to validation for the market. How do you how do you get them? How do you get them to that point? Adrijana Daragon  17:35 Sure, so I think here it’s super important is to have different people in your support system, and very in a closed network, and part of the founders have the personal network, especially when they or we have advisory boards, part of a board who are really, typically people come from the industries differ, or they have also have done the startups. Of could be ex founder, founders who have successful exits. Or it can be, especially in some specialized tech, it can be really coming advisors from the industry who really know more more about the target clients, what’s the problem and how and the typical challenges the startup can occur, and that’s very important about utilizing it. So it’s also up to the to the person who is if it’s they have active role as an advisor or the senior expert, or only given a fractional, fractional person who really can help and structure or some of go to market is really to have this open dialog. So it’s not about really just exactly have this consensus, consensus atmosphere, that it’s okay. What the founder is saying when we would just would work on this is it’s very important to challenge that and to challenge that early on, because that’s when it’s really this diversity of expertise, and especially this relevant expertise, is super important to build around and actually leverage in the right way, asking the big questions not working in the silos. So it’s more about really, that sometimes with advisory boards, they are more the name. It’s more for the VC (Venture Capital), plus also for some of yes presentations, events, so for more of trust building. However, it’s really as well. The how I see the founders who get much more benefit is really who use, use the senior experts in the right way of having almost milestone checks really saying this is what we are working on. Let’s look back, and this is why we didn’t gain those pilots. While we did a lot of effort, we had a lot of conversations with those enterprises, but it doesn’t go anywhere. Let’s review that, and it’s more like bringing one level high of really bad view and challenge some of the assumptions which were there before. Christian Klepp  20:33 Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. And what you said is also really important, getting everybody to stop working in silos and exposing them to the to the to the bigger ecosystem. So we were talking about, like, dealing with pushback, and unfortunately, I’m going to have to ask you for more advice on that, because the next question is about something that I think you’re very familiar with, right? Because you’re dealing with a lot of these B2B tech startups. How do you deal with pushback from founders? You know, when you tell them that, listen, you don’t have a demand problem, you have a positioning and go to market architecture problem, and they look at you as if you’re like, What are you talking about, right? What is this positioning? What is this go to market architecture? This sounds to me like a waste of time, right? But how do you, how do you convince them that it’s, it’s, in fact, in their interest to deal with this, and how do you deal with that pushback? Adrijana Daragon  21:30 Yes, it’s more it’s also depends on the stage like which, how big it is, not over engineer some of activities early on. So it’s, yes, the demand is needed. But there’s also that the big risk is if we put especially, they get, sometimes the funding over and they press P dial on marketing budget. Advertising, I have seen that and then, and they are not very, very clear who are the right client, and especially as we talked who then do they, and especially in a bigger organizations targeting so we could really put a lot of advertising in the right target audience with a wrong message, and they could. And no surprise, the results don’t, don’t come afterwards, the deals are not coming those people, they might join your mailing list webinar, and that’s so far as we get, because we, most probably, we were just interested in what’s new out there. However, they are not really the right person who in the organization deciding this all it is really about your messaging didn’t connect to the problem, and they wouldn’t even book a call afterwards with the sales team. So this is the way I see it’s where it’s really about looking overall, about full funnel, not only about saying, if we get big volume of people leads, then everything will be okay. It’s it’s much more about lower volume, but of a right, right leads that will create less house, less activity. Because you can, you can really mistake a lot of activity will give a lot of good results. It’s more sometimes really stripping down, seeing really what’s working. And it requires somebody who would understand that really looking at the data, looking what, what are the different tests? What resonates? This is the stage when you typically did some tests. Early on, you are still at the stage of trying and working and understanding, but at the stage when you did some now it’s a time to really look at it review and see where you double down and what you don’t focus on. It’s always, I think it’s in sales and marketing is a lot about where do you put priorities? Where do you focus on and more, I think sometimes less the activities, but really, very clearly, can really simplify also the team effort to get into those deals, because sometimes the deals had stalled in the middle, but you didn’t have time because you were so busy. But if you would take time review it, maybe adjust the positioning, and then revive the conversation that could lead to this, to the to big ticket or deal, and that will will be much more important, versus doing extra trials on marketing. Christian Klepp  24:36 That’s exactly it. And you, I think you hit on something that is worth repeating. It’s also a lot about the strategy, right? Like a lot of a lot of startups that I’ve seen, they jump straight into the execution, right? Like you talked about it, like ads and then and lead generation. And I’m not saying that those things are not important. They are, but if you don’t have that understanding. Who the target audience is, and you don’t have a strategy in terms of, like, how you’re going to approach the market, you’re just going to be burning through money. And you and I both know how much ads cost, and if you don’t know what you’re doing, it’s like a vacuum cleaner now. But you touched on something that I think it’s worth revisiting and going back to, because it’s again. I know it might sound a bit repetitive, but why is it so important for them to understand, or have a deep understanding about who this potential customer is? Right? Why is it important for them to know that, and why is it important for them to understand the buyer’s journey? Because, you know, depending on what stage of the journey these people are in, they may have different motivations, or they may have different reasons for looking for a product or solution. Adrijana Daragon  25:49 I think it’s, it’s really important. That will make or break your traction and more, and that’s really the part of understanding and speaking in about the customer, sometimes even better than the customer themselves. Makes the customer really feel you understand you are credible, you build… I can trust you. And that’s really it says speed dial. It’s a speed dial to really, to retraction, to really, this is what is important part is to especially in B2B, you, it’s building credibility and trust so that you really know, yes, you have a great credentials in terms of a technology that your solution. That’s important part. However, the equally is also important, the the understanding commercially how this technology can help your customers. It’s really about your customers, especially when we talk about you, mentioned about buying centers and complex organizations. That’s when it’s really thereby. It’s a lot about reducing risks. It’s a lot about minimizing transition costs. So it’s more about that you are not really too risky for them to to buy from. And this is it goes beyond the technology. It’s a lot about understanding and talking in the language of a customer that you have discovered very clearly, very proactively, in first, in your mind, when afterwards, all your communication. And this is where it comes the strategy is super important. But I see it’s it’s not a strategy where you need just a document, somebody quickly did it, or like now, it’s the AI or somebody out of touch. It requires, as well, real validation. So that’s where it’s important. The strategy with validation, which is not on paper document, it’s really about kind of almost agreement of what’s the core, or what’s the core, what we are doing, trying to achieve, and how the way we trying to achieve that. So this helps you, is for the founder, for the rest of the team, and then we are talking about gaining traction, bring the rest of together. The strategy changes over time. Some elements the market also adjusts. Technologies adjust, but this is super important part of stop wasting time on of doing too many activities and really looking at what, what really will move a needle. Christian Klepp  28:39 Wait a second, you mean that the strategy has to be adjusted. I thought the strategy is just something you do one time and then you forget about it. Adrijana Daragon  28:49 I think it’s that’s why, that’s what this gets a lot of times. I think it’s as well in a tech companies, they do especially early stages that pitch documents thinking overall, that’s the part of saying what’s addressable market. So say we did, we have our covered. I have our go to market. We have our plan. That’s it’s great. It gives us some of her some it’s already good starting points, but there is much more on that. It’s really ongoingly effort, and that’s why it’s why there are really the teams who succeed. Is really the founder, is leading the sales and marketing organization. And then they are, they are close to the customer. So it’s not only to the product, but we need to be close to the customer. And then they are like, really bridge, bridging the gaps as well as we go, because it’s also the different challenges. But being close to the customer and hearing that and not working in a silo and bringing back that knowledge is super important. And so it’s that document changes a lot of times. It’s, it’s, can be, it’s not 180 story. It’s. Sometimes it will be big pivots. There are pivots as well. You scrap your current product, and you see that some of the one leg can really move forward, like there are examples like Spotify, and I was wherever I started and they landed. But this is moving. It’s a moving piece, not one set in stone piece. Christian Klepp  30:22 Right. So I think for this next question, if you really want to get very deep, it will take us several hours to talk about it, but just in the interest of time, maybe you can just give us a top level perspective, right? Just based on your own experience, walk us through how the B2B startups should fix their positioning, go to market architecture problems. So just give us the key steps. What are the key components that need to be in that process? Adrijana Daragon  30:51 I think it’s in beginning, especially it’s important of looking at and picking one target customer. So one industry, one target customer, thinking about your resources. It’s a lot about your resources, especially a lot of technologies are agnostic. So that’s the typical pitfall of saying it’s for everyone, but it’s almost for nobody, really. So it’s about picking one of the customer target, and that’s typically comes either which one you are familiar with, where you come, come from, or you have great access to as well. So it’s really there. You can see it’s it helps you to validate early, to get access to real people, talk to them, to see, to see, to get that feedback, fine tune and not over developer MVP (Minimum Viable Product). MVP like the first products a lot of times as well, because that’s really what we talked that it comes together together, that MVP, it will be most of the times. You will scratch it. You will build a next level moving forward. But this will help you to launch, launch, and iterate faster and not always spend time. There is a difference in deep tech. It takes time, sometimes 10 years, 10 years based on the research. So there are nuances as well. So it’s not there as well, but this is very important part of narrowing the focus in beginning will help you to grow, to go faster, to go faster and to really get the right right customers. And this, it’s very important for the to validate that with few customers, not only one, to really see if it is a scalable solution. So hence, we talking about the depth and breadth of a customer early on. So here we are talking about because sometimes here the risk is of choosing one customer. It’s almost fully designing it for that customer, to the point that is almost only relevant to that customer based on their requirements. So it’s seeing how you could leverage that pilot that you can really also offer to others afterwards, how? So it’s really things are thinking about the pilot in the right way, and here it’s so it’s more about who would be the few clients and how deep you can go. So for the pilots it can help you land in those companies. But afterwards, how you can move from the pilots to the full full projects, which we pay the bigger, bigger school projects. So this is the important I think, in a short period of time, I think that’s the important part of thinking about how you could get this early traction, and the early traction which is scalable. So these are fundamentals of thinking of okay, when you have this in the right way, then you see this breadth and depth of the customers, which you prove the point with, multiple of the customers. Then we got the feedback from the right customers. Helps you to grow faster. Moving on. Christian Klepp  34:23 Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I love how you also led with, like, narrowing the focus. And I think that’s so important. A lot of these, a lot of startups like you said, like, Okay, this is, this is for, you know, different different verticals, or the, you know, we have customers in different industries, but in the beginning, if you, if you have that mindset, and you approach the market that way, and I think you brought it up earlier on in the conversation, you start to spread yourself so thin. And a lot of these startups don’t have 500 employees, right? So, you know, it’s a handful of people, if they’re, if there’s 10 people in the startup, that’s already like, wow, I. Right? But there’s, there’s only a few people, and especially there’s only a few people responsible for business, right, and client acquisition. So if you start already in the beginning, spreading them so thin, how are you ever going to scale, right? Yeah, okay, fantastic. But okay, so maybe this is a question that you probably know the answer to. But I think it’s really important to put it into context, because when you say, narrow the focus, how do you get startups to narrow the focus, especially when they say, well, we built this tool, and it’s for different industries. How do you get them and especially because there’s a lot of people on LinkedIn saying, oh, narrowing the focus. That’s, that’s lazy advice. I disagree with that, by the way, but, um, but how do you get them to narrow the focus? How do you get them to just zero in on one particular vertical. Adrijana Daragon  35:52 So here, I can give a few examples. I think it is here. It’s really depends on, on, also the industry. How narrow is the narrow? Christian Klepp  36:03 Absolutely. Adrijana Daragon  36:04 So typically, my advice would be, you think that you are narrow, go even further. Christian Klepp  36:09 Okay. Adrijana Daragon  36:10 Go fever further, because it’s not only the big industries, but who are within the industries. And specifically, if you are saying, let’s say it’s technology solution. Technology solution of improving the productivity. And you care for enterprises. That’s typically a lot of enterprises, but if you choose one specific industry, saying these are the typically processes they have to improve, okay? But then there are a lot of teams, and within the teams, there are also the hierarchy, so understanding really more specific use cases. So that’s the typical way of thinking about where are the few use cases where you could really solve really well, and sometimes they come as exactly because you had the access to the market you can really have it’s easier for you. It’s more accessible, accessible one. But it’s also looking if it is, can be repeatable, repeatable, that there are various potential as well, moving forward, moving forward, forward. So there it’s, it’s, I think people are very scared, and other founders I work with of being too narrow, too narrow, but exactly as we talk about, it’s very small team. It’s better to have 10 earlier, like pilots, but it’s really been closed and you have strong learnings versus 100 of nice to have conversations and maybe few, but never really even have use cases closed in the multiple, multiple areas. This is where, like it happens that that going narrow. It really helps. And in in some very niche already, solutions like robotics, for the specific area, it takes really time as well to solve any problem, learn really depth about the customer. So you cannot spread yourself too thin on many, customers there. So the time in deep tech it takes to solve the problem, this is the especially I recommend in deep tech, very specific area to get the traction it’s really important to get it’s a narrow one, because this is where you invested a lot in the research a young competitive also differentiation on what’s the technology so it’s better solving really, truly well for amount of customers, and that’s really the build up, versus of going broad and losing this even the trust and credibility in the market. Christian Klepp  38:59 Absolutely, absolutely. You know, as you were explaining this, which I think you explained really well, it almost sounds like you have to get them to conduct an experiment. You remember, back in the school days, we were conducting experiments, and then we have to record the results, right? And then, okay, what worked, what didn’t work? Okay, what worked, scale, what didn’t work, stop, right? Or, or pivot, yeah, change the approach, right? We have to find out why didn’t it work? Right? What were the reasons? What was the feedback? Right? So it’s almost like, it’s almost like you have to have this experimental slash growth mindset. Adrijana Daragon  39:36 Yes, yes. That’s very important. I think it’s this growth mindset. It’s really there you are. It’s continuous iteration and learning. It’s learning as well. It’s also about asking the questions, being in the asking the questions, having a not this paralysis of no action. So you need to have the action for your actions, but the also thinking about, what is it behind? What would really we need to do to make this pilot successful? What, and also, when you are talking with a customer early on, on the pilot, super important is to ask, what needs to happen in this pilot. What are the success criteria for us to move from the pilot to the full project afterwards. So that’s the one like it helps tech as well to structure this experiments in the right way, in the right way, versus just when you are spreading to fin, you almost show the demo. Demos, give the solution, and then leaving the customer almost alone. So you didn’t give full, full effort in those pilots as well to get the right even the data behind. Christian Klepp  40:51 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Adrijana, this was such a great conversation, and you know, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your expertise and experience with the listeners. So please give us a quick introduction and how people out there can get in touch with you, especially if they’re in the B2B Tech or health startup space in Switzerland and Europe. Adrijana Daragon  41:11 Yes, sure. So I am go to market advisor and fractional CMO, or Chief Revenue Officer for B2B tech companies. I’m based in Switzerland. I operate with many European and also US companies who typically are still at the stage of founder led sales and marketing activities. And I support them, moving from heavy activity random sales to repeatable way of winning deals. And my company is called go to market advantage. So go to gtmadvantage.ch you can find also resources there as quick diagnostic tool as well. So it’s a three five minutes tool for them as well to get some of the low hanging fruits, what typically go to market challenges they have, and it gives them as well, some advice. And I’m happy to also, yes, share more of the discovery calls. Christian Klepp  42:22 Fantastic, fantastic, and we’ll be sure to put a link in the show notes when this episode comes out. So once again. Adrijana, thanks so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. Adrijana Daragon  42:32 Thank you.

Episode 32: Dan interviews his law partner Jessica. Makes fun of my shitty memory. This is why I forgot to post this episode. SMH. Viv is still the engineer somehow. 

I'm not violent, but my gym playlist says otherwise. Makes me think about what we take in and what it does to us - good and bad...or a mix of both.Stay connected:* YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@shannoncasonstoryteller* Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/shannoncason/* Twitter - https://twitter.com/shannoncason* Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/ShannonCasonTalks* TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@shannoncasonSupport the stories:* Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/shannoncason* CashApp - https://cash.app/$ShannonCason* PayPal - https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/homemadestories1* Merch & more - https://www.shannoncason.com/Supporters get a mention on the next Homemade Stories Podcast! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Raised beds have been getting improved with goat barn compost. Blind Hog has been moving rocks from one pile to another.Acorn baked a loaf of sourdough.  Been feasting on asparagus and salad greens from the garden."Barely used" shoes from Ebay are the cat's meow...  Makes fora very happy Acorn, especially when the style has been discontinued.

This was the first podcast I did on AI in 2024: https://drlaurendeville.com/podcasts/what-the-bible-says-about-artificial-intelligence And these are the rest of my notes, if you want to visit some of the verses I didn't read... שָׁמַע šāmaʿ: - to hear, listen to, obey, discern, perceive, understand- Listening to God specifically, and obeying: - Solomon's request (1 Kings 3:9): what he asks for is a heart that שָׁמַע šāmaʿ - to hear, listen to, obey, discern, perceive, that he might שָׁפַט šāp̄aṭ - judge, govern, vindicate, punish, and בִּין bîn - discern, understand, consider between good and evil. God gives him a heart that is חָכָם - ḥāḵām - wise, skilful, shrewd, learned, prudent, as well as בִּין bîn - discern, understand, consider between good and evil. - Gen 22:18: Abraham obeys God and was willing to offer Isaac (and now all the nations of the earth will be blessed), and then God reiterates this promise to Isaac (Gen 26:5) - Ex 15:26: If the people will listen and do God's commandments, they will be healed - Ex 23:22: if the people will listen, God will fight against their enemies - Ex 24:27: The people promise they will do what God said - (and many more examples of listening to God and obeying, esp in Psalms)- God's šāmaʿ to our prayers--if He hears, He responds (1 John 5:14-15) - Gen 16:11: He heard Hagar's distress and told her she'd have Ishmael - Gen 17:20: Abraham asks God to bless Ishmael and God agrees - Gen 29:33: Leah's prayers to God for children because she is hated - Ex 2:24: God heard the groanings of the Israelites - (and many, many more)- Listening and taking action (whether the action is good or bad, doing what the other person wanted or not--what is heard just prompts a response): - Gen 3:8: Adam and Eve šāmaʿ God after they ate the fruit, and hid themselves. - Gen 3:17 Adam šāmaʿ Eve (hearkened to): he ate the fruit when she asked him to. - Gen 11:7: God confused speech at the Tower of Babel so that they would not šāmaʿ each other - Gen 14:14: Abram heard (šāmaʿ) Lot was taken captive, and it caused him to gather an army - Gen 16:2: Sarai told Abram to sleep with Hagar, and he listened (šāmaʿ) to her - Gen 18:10: Sarai overhears (šāmaʿ) God's promise of a child... but her response is to laugh - Gen 27:5: Rebekah overhears (šāmaʿ) Isaac's word to Esau and takes matters into her own hands. - (and many, many more) שָׂכַל śāḵal: to be prudent, be circumspect, wisely understand, prosper, skill. Interesting that the same word means the knowledge of how to act, and also to prosper and gain favor - cause and effect are wrapped up in the same word. - Incidentally, the same word (sāḵāl), but spelled with a samekh (סָכָל) instead of a shin (שָׂכַל), means fool (Ecclesiastes 2:19, 7:17, 10:3, 10:14, Jeremiah 4:22, 5:21) - samekh סָ root meaning: a shield, leaning on, "supporting" or, in a negative sense, "blocking" (blocking one from God's wisdom) - vs shin שָׂ: A letter of fire, illumination, light - This is the word used in Gen 3:6, describing the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. It apparently thus also means the ability to choose your allegiance. It is spelled there with a shin... - To understand the bigger picture and act accordingly: - Deut 32:29: "O that they were wise, that they understood (śāḵal) this, that they would consider their latter end!" - 1 Sam 18:5: "And David went out whithersoever Saul sent him, and behaved himself wisely (śāḵal): and Saul set him over the men of war, and he was accepted in the sight of all the people, and also in the sight of Saul's servants." - Same word twice - for emphasis? 1 Sam 18:15: "Wherefore when Saul saw that he behaved himself (śāḵal) very wisely (śāḵal), he was afraid of him." - Ps 32: 8: "I will instruct thee (śāḵal) and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye." - Prov 1:2-3: This is the purpose of Proverbs: - "To know wisdom (hok-maw) and instruction; to perceive (bîn) the words of understanding (bînâ), To receive the instruction of wisdom (śāḵal), justice, and judgment (mišpāṭ), and equity." - This is the action as well as the adjective in most Proverbs translated "wise": 10:5, 10:19, 14:35, 15:24, 16:20, 16:23 (here it was the verb, to teach), 17:2, 19:14 (translated prudent here), 21:11 (here it's the passive verb, is instructed), 21:2 (here it's to consider), 21:16 (understanding here), - Isa 44:18: Jesus quoted this about people not understanding his parables " They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand (śāḵal)" - To prosper or to have favor: - Deut 29:9: "Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper (śāḵal) in all that ye do." - Joshua 1:7-8: "Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper (śāḵal) whithersoever thou goest. This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success (śāḵal)." - Also used for this meaning in Proverbs: 17:8- To be skillful: Dan 1:4, 1:17 (describing the Hebrew children) - In Job 34:35, Elihu speaking: "Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom (śāḵal)."- Prophecies of Jesus having śāḵal: Isaiah 52:13 Wisdom: חָכְמָה: (hok-maw):—skilful, wisdom, wisely, wit. - "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom," Ps 111:10, and "For the LORD giveth wisdom" (Prov 2:6). You can't have wisdom apart from His counsel (Prov 21:30).- God made the earth with wisdom (Jer 10:12, 51:15, Ps 104:24)- Humility precedes wisdom (Prov 11:2)--because fear of the Lord is a posture of humility (Prov 15:33, 1 Pet 5:6-7, Matt 5:3, 5). - If instead you trust in your own heart (reasoning), you are a fool - but wisdom will deliver you from trouble (Prov 28:26). - But too much wisdom can also somehow lead to pride, and pervert: Isaiah 47:10, Eze 48:4-17 (allegory of Satan) - and "knowledge puffs up" (1 Cor 8:1)- It's "the principal thing" (Prov 4:7), better than anything else we can desire (Prov 8:11, 16:16).- It described the Israelites if they followed God's laws (Deut 4:6), leaders anointed by God with the wisdom to lead (Deut 34:9) - For children, physical discipline eventually teaches wisdom (Prov 29:15).- An example: 2 Sam 20:22: the Israelite woman whose city is besieged because Sheba son of Bichri, a rebel against King David, was within. She speaks to Joab, finds out they want Sheba and if they give him up, Joab will spare the city. So "in her wisdom" (hok-maw) she promises they will throw his head to them over the wall. They do so, and Joab and his army departs. This is wisdom: not simply reacting with the typical emotions of anger, fear, etc from being besieged, but instead identifying and articulating both problem and solution. - Elihu says that he will teach Job and his three friends, who accuse God, wisdom (Job 33:33). - He later says that it is God who puts wisdom and understanding in our hearts (Job 38:36), and that he deprived animals of the same ability. A person who lacks understanding can only be controlled with physical consequences, by contrast (Prov 10:13) - and kids have to start out learning by physical discipline (Prov 29:15) as they are inherently foolish. - Numbering our days leads to wisdom (Ps 90:12) - bc we're "redeeming the time bc the days are evil?" (Eph 5:16) This sounds like wisdom is also discerning what truly matters vs what is passing away. - 2 Chron 1:10: in this version Solomon does ask for חָכְמָה: (khok-maw), and knowledge מַדָּע madāʿ- Then 1 Kings 3:28: after Solomon's judgment between the two would-be mothers (where he infers from the story that the real mother will love the child more than herself, and uses that to reveal hearts), the people conclude that he has חָכְמָה: (khok-maw). The Queen of Sheba came and asked him hard questions and there was nothing he couldn't answer (1 Kings 10:1-9).- Jesus displayed this kind of wisdom: - Prophesied: Isaiah 11:2 "And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD" In the NT: akouō (to hear, hearken, give audience): carries a similar "and to understand and obey/respond" implication as does šāmaʿ: Matt 15:10, 17:5, 18:15, Mark 7:14, Mark 12:29, Luke 8:21, 9:35, 10:16, 11:28, John 6:60, 8:23, 8:47, John 10:20, John 11:41-42- Matt 7:24, Luke 9:47-48: the man who hears and does what Jesus says is like the house built on the rock- John 5:25: those who hear Jesus (and respond) will have life--spiritually and literally (v 28)- If the people in the cities don't hear your words, shake the dust off your feet: Matt 10:14, Mark 6:11 - Matt 10:27: preach whatever you akouō from Me- Matt 12:42, Luke 11:31: The Queen of Sheba went to akouō Solomon's wisdom- Luke 10:39: Mary prioritized hearing Jesus- John 10:3, 16, 27: the sheep hear His voice- John 16:13 The Holy Spirit tells us what He hears from the Father- "He who has ears to hear, let him hear": Matt 11:15, 13:9, 13:43, Mark 4:9, 4:33, 7:16, 8:18, Luke 8:8, 14:35- Those who heard and understood were astonished: Mark 6:2- Luke 16:29-31: Those who hear Moses and the prophets and understand what they hear will also hear about Jesus (because they pointed to Him)- Matt 11:4-5, Luke 7:22: John's disciples were to go back and tell him what they had seen and heard- Luke 10:24: Wise men of old desired to hear what the disciples heard - He speaks in parables bc the people don't have ears to hear: Matt 13:13-18, Mark 4:12, 4:23, Luke 8:10 - The parable of the sower: those who hear but don't understand have nothing to take root. This is the precondition for wisdom. Matt 13:19, Mark 4:15, Luke 8:12 - But if you do understand, you still have to maintain single focus so it's not choked out: Matt 13:20-23, Mark 4:16-20, Luke 8:13-15- "Take heed what/how you hear" precedes "with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you" (Mark 4:24, Luke 8:18: what you listen to (and respond to) determines the direction of your life. - Also often used to just mean to hear with your ears (many places) phronimos (intelligent, wise, prudent, i.e. mindful of one's interests)- Matt 7:24: the man who builds his house upon a rock by doing what Jesus says rather than just hearing it is phronimos - Matt 24:45, Luke 12:42: the wise servant is the one whom the Master will find doing what he was told, when the Master returns. - Matt 25: the parable of the wise virgins (also prepared with oil); the parable of the talents right after this seems to imply the same (looking ahead and making the most of what we've been given) though the word 'wise' doesn't appear there. - Luke 12:42-48: describes the foolish servants who know the will of their master but when he returns, he finds them disobeying. - Matt 10:16: wise as serpents, harmless as doves: - AW: This means we aren’t totally defenseless. Wisdom is a powerful force that gives us an advantage. - Luke 16:8: the parable of the unjust steward - he's called wise (shrewd) for looking out for his own interests. (Still not sure what the point of this parable was) Sophia: wisdom, broad and full of intelligence; used of the knowledge of very diverse matters. The varied knowledge of things human and divine, acquired by acuteness and experience, and summed up in maxims and proverbs, the science and learning, the act of interpreting dreams and always giving the sagest advice, the intelligence evinced in discovering the meaning of some mysterious number or vision, devout and proper prudence in intercourse with men not disciples of Christ, skill and discretion in imparting Christian truth, the knowledge and practice of the requisites for godly and upright living; supreme intelligence, such as belongs to God.- Matt 12:42, Luke 11:31: Jesus used this word to describe Solomon's wisdom - Acts 7:10 same word describes Joseph, and 7:22: Moses - Matt 13:54, Mark 6:2: the people said Jesus had this after listening to his teachings and were astonished- Luke 12:11-12, 21:15: God promises to give His followers such godly wisdom that none of our adversaries would be able to resist it - Acts 6:10: example of this - 1 Cor 1:17, 2:5: and yet Paul says the wisdom of words is insufficient; the gospel needs power to back it. That's because (worldly) wisdom wouldn't receive it--the world considers godly wisdom foolishness (1 Cor 1:19). The wisdom of the world and the wisdom of God are diametrically opposed! (1 Cor 1:20-25) - 1 Cor 2:6-8: Paul again contrasts the wisdom "of this age" with the wisdom of God. (Makes me think of sāḵāl - same word, two spellings, one meaning foolish, depicting that the person is blocked off from God's wisdom, and one meaning wise, and the letter means that he is guided by the light of God's wisdom). Even so, the natural man considers the things of God foolish (1 Cor 2:14), and God likewise considers the wisdom of this world foolish (1 Cor 3:19-20). - Jesus also said God hid Him from the "wise and prudent" (of that age) and revealed them to babes (Matt 11:25).- James 1:5: we can ask God for sophia- Matt 5: The Beatitudes teach an inversion of the world's wisdom: how the world actually works. - It's summed up with Matt 6:33 (and Luke 12:22-34): "seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." - Matt 10:27-31 says similar: don't fear men; fear God (trusting that He loves you). Live in single-minded allegiance to Him. And 11:39: "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it." If you "find your life" apart from Him, you've lost everything: the ultimate foolishness. He repeats this: Matt 16:25-26 - and Deny yourself, take up your cross - if you desire to save your life you'll lose it, and if you lose your life for Him you'll find it (Luke 9:23-27, John 12:25). - As you do this, by abiding in Him, You get whatever you desire (John 15:7-8, 16) - Mary and Martha: another lesson about singleness of focus on Him being the most important thing (Luke 10:38-42). - Luke 11:33-36: it takes light and a receptive eye to see. Jesus is always shining - It’s our eyes that don’t see. Jesus was telling us how to get our eyes opened to His light: we have to be single in our focus on Him. The Greek word that was translated “eye” in this verse is “OPHTHALMOS.” Vine’s Expository Dictionary defines this Greek word as “singleness of motive.” If our attention is divided, however, we will have the darkness of this world in us instead of God’s light. - So it isn't that we have to have "VIEW" rather than a POINT of view in order to see the bigger picture. Rather, our point of view needs to be fixed on Him, and then everything else will find its proper alignment. - True leaders must serve all (Mark 9:35, 10:43-45, Luke 22:26). Last will be first, and first will be last (Mark 10:31, Luke 13:30). If you humble yourself you will be exalted, and if you exalt yourself you will be humbled (Luke 14:11, 18:14). - What you give, you get back and then some (Luke 6:38, 14:14, 18:29-30) - Luke 12:16-21: Conversely, a fool is one who lays up treasure for himself in this life. - Luke 19:12-27: the parable of the minas: The wicked servant was motivated by fear; he didn't trust the master's heart, and didn't use what he had. So he lost even that. - He draws a hard line: all in or all out (Luke 11:22)-- because this is a war (Luke 9:58-62). You must comparatively hate everyone, even your own life, in comparison to Him (Luke 14:26). No one is neutral. He describes opponents in adversarial language ("lambs among wolves", Luke 10:3), and everything hinges on what people do with the message of the Kingdom (10:11-16). You either love the light or love the darkness (John 3:19-21). - So many parables Matt 24:45, Matt 25, Luke 12:42-48, Luke 13:24-30) are about servants doing what their master wants while he is away so that he will find them so doing when he returns... probably bc the point is "redeem the time bc the days are evil" (Eph 5:16) and numbering our days gives wisdom (Ps 90). It seems the point is, time is short, and the stakes are very high, so be single-minded in your focus on Jesus and the Kingdom. - Luke 14:25-33: Just as a king wouldn’t engage in war without thoroughly considering all the possible outcomes, so no one should attempt to become a disciple of Jesus without counting the cost. It would be better never to start following Jesus than to start and then turn back (Luke 9:62 and 2 Peter 2:20-22). - The rest of the Sermon on the Mount: teaches that what matters isn't actions (as all their teachers had told them), but motive--and ultimately this goes back to allegiance. - Matt 11:28: "Come to Me, all you who are weary and heavy laden" - with trying to follow the law. So stop both trying to be good enough, and also trying to follow your own wisdom. - Spirit vs flesh: allegiance determines this too. We have to come to Him, and He will give us the Spirit, without which we cannot successfully worship Him (John 4:24). Outwardly keeping the OT was all in the flesh, and it would never work. It was never meant to. Only the Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing (John 6:63).- He repeatedly says, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" (Matt 11:15, 13:9), and explains that those who have [wisdom] will get more, and those who have chosen not to hear and see will lose even what they have (Matt 13:10-17) - The parable of the sower: God's word brings wisdom (Prov 21:30), but the people have to hear and understand (šāmaʿ). If they don't, the enemy will steal it right away (13:19). The one who hears, understands, and receives with joy, but has no root--he might šāmaʿ, but if he doesn't śāḵal (act accordingly), he won't bear fruit either. Same with the one who is choked with the cares of the world. But the one who both šāmaʿ (hears and understands) and śāḵal (acts accordingly, is a doer of the word) is the one who will bear a harvest--seeking the Kingdom and letting God bring the supply for their needs and increase. - The parable of the two sons: the one who says he won't do the will of the father but does has truly śāḵal, while the one who says ok and doesn't is just a hypocrite: Matt 21:28-32 - In dealing with the Pharisees: their "wisdom" said good was following the law, and anyone who didn't do so according to their own teachings must be evil. The people surely could have been confused by what is good and what is evil. So Jesus clarifies: - makes the distinction of the spirit vs the letter of the law (Matt 9:11-13, 12:3-8, 12:11-12, 15:17-20, John 7:22-24) -- and also illustrates how they've added their own "letters of the law" and elevated those above what God actually said (Matt 15:3-9) - Uses the logic of motive (a house divided cannot stand): Matt 12:24-30, Luke 11:16-22). - tells the people to judge good and evil by the fruit it produces: Matt 12:33-35 - When they're trying to trap them, He: - turns the tables and asks them a question He knows they won't answer for political reasons: Matt 21:23-27 (John's baptism: from heaven or men), Matt 22:41-45 (how David can call his son 'Lord' - bc He's also God, which they didn't want to admit) - gives them an accurate non-answer: Matt 22:15-22 (the image of Caesar on the denarius) - answers the real question, rather than the one they were asking: Matt 22:23-33 (is there a resurrection of the dead?)- Enigmatic, dark sayings: Matt 8:20-22, 9:16-17, 12:31-32, Matt 13:35 (prophesied that this would be the case, in Ps 78:2) - He seems to jump topics without bothering to explain the connection (Matt 12:38-42: the pharisees ask for a sign. He says they'll get the sign of the prophet Jonah - in retrospect we know this was his death and resurrection. Then because they still won't believe, they will be condemned... and says "this wicked generation" will be like a wicked spirit cast out that then returns and brings more evil spirits, 12:43-45) - He jumps from one metaphor to another without explaining the connection (from the parable of the sower - God's word - to a lamp - God's word too) and then just says "if anyone has ears to hear, let him hear" (Mark 4:21-22). Then "take heed what you hear" - if you steward and obey the word you have been given, you'll get more. But he never says that this refers to the word explicitly either (Mark 4:24-25) - Luke 12: all over the place: the "do not worry" passage, followed by servants being faithful while their master is away, followed by Christ bringing division on the earth within families, and then "discern the time," and then "make peace with your adversary" -- are these related? - He speaks to John's disciples in a riddle only John will likely understand (Matt 11:2-6) - In what way is the kingdom of God "tiny" only to later grow and become large? (Luke 13:18-21) and what is the point of saying so? - He just changes the subject to what He wants to talk about (Matt 12:48-50): "your mother and brothers are here," and he says, "those who are my mother and brothers are those who do the will of My Father." - Another example: Luke 12:14-15: someone comes to him and asks him to arbitrate inheritance between brothers. He says that's not his job, and then warns the crowd against covetousness. - He clearly understood the foundations of how the world worked--why things were the way they were. Everyone around him saw only the carnal, visible, literal reality, and lived and reacted on that level. He was frustrated by this, and tried to teach: - What matters is not external actions, but the motive of the heart, which eventually comes out in words (Matt 15:16-20) - Reality bows the knee to faith: Matt 16:8-11, 17:20-21, 18:18-20, 21:21-22, Mark 11:22-24 - This is why He was so impressed with the Centurion: he understood that Jesus' authority transcended the physical world (Luke 7:9). Everyone else was so focused on the practical reality that this never even occurred to them. - Jesus met people on this physical level and gave them evidence (Luke 24:38-43) but said that wasn't the highest form of faith (John 20:29) - He understood the big picture: not just what was, but why things were the way they were, God's original purpose, and how He fit in (Luke 4:18-21, 24:25-27) - Because He knew context, rather than just the words and commands of scripture, Satan couldn't twist it to trap Him either (Luke 4:2-12.) - All the prophets that the Pharisees spent their life studying pointed to Jesus, and they missed it (Matt 16:2-4, John 5:38-40, 46-47)... because they were focusing on keeping the literal letter of the law (to the point of physical phylacteries, from Deut 6:8). It seems to never have occurred to them why things were the way they were. - I suspect their focus on minutiae and not on the underlying realities was also what allowed them to stop looking at the Lord as their source, which led to misplaced priorities, and greed (John 2:16 - buying and selling at the temple). I can see how they might have justified this, that it didn't *preclude* prayer and sacrifice to have a little side business going there too. But it revealed the focus of their hearts, and where their trust was, and effectively made God's real purpose for the Temple into a footnote. Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

“Healing shapes how confident and certain we feel.” In this episode, Nick explores the concepts of confidence and certainty, their differences, and how they influence personal growth. He discusses practical insights on how understanding these can improve mindset, decision-making, and emotional resilience. What to listen for: Difference between confidence and certainty How confidence impacts decision-making The role of certainty in personal growth Practical ways to build confidence and certainty “If we don’t have confidence, we’re probably pretty uncertain about something.” There's a reason for a lack of confidence; it doesn't just appear Confidence and certainty can be tied together unconsciously Exploring our feelings and mindset heading into a situation can shape our confidence “Confidence in the work, certainty in the results.” Results can be hard to predict when external factors are involved Clarity in purpose can drastically change how confident we are going into any situation Trusting the process of your work can alleviate stress and keep you focused on the task that you know will result in the outcome you want About Nick McGowan I'm Nick McGowan, an entrepreneur, podcaster, and mental health advocate, and I’ve been on a 20+ year journey of personal development, learning to master my mindset, emotions, and the art of living with purpose. As a Mindset and Self-Mastery Mentor, I work with ambitious men and women who want to live their most authentic and joyous lives by helping them master their mindset, emotional awareness, and authentic communication. My mission is to empower people to lead lives that feel aligned, grounded, and truly their own. Throughout my career, I've built teams, streamlined systems, and improved client experiences across SaaS, media, marketing, and personal development spaces. Whether I'm leading cross-functional projects, optimizing SEO, Podcasting, designing strategies, or guiding clients through transformation, I bring a hands-on, solution-focused approach to everything I do. I'm also the host of The Mindset and Self-Mastery Show, where my guests and I unpack the stories that shape us, challenge us, and ultimately guide us back to who we are at our core. On this show, we uncover the secret gems others have discovered through trial and error and breakthroughs, so you can fast-track your growth and master your mindset in your pursuit of self-mastery. Check out the latest episode here. With years of podcasting and two decades of marketing experience, I've mastered the storytelling, interview flow, strategy, and technical production that elevate a podcast from “just content” to something truly impactful. Whether you’re a leader looking to amplify your message, a seasoned speaker and podcast host looking to sharpen your edge, or even a beginner who is wondering how to share their message, I mentor thought leaders through every step of having the conversation they’re here to have on this planet. So, what message are you here to share?! https://nickmcgowan.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/thenickmcgowan/ Resources: Check out other episodes about our confidence and clarity Finding Confidence Through Grief and Psychic Mediumship With Karen Romine Become A Person Of Value With Jeevan Matharu Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/ Learn more about our host, Nick McGowanhttps://nickmcgowan.com/ Thank you for listening! Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089 Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/ Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA Guest Inquiries right here: podcasts@themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show” Click Here To View The Episode Transcript Nick McGowan 00:00No matter what we’ve done in life or what we’re doing right now, whether that’s purpose work, working on past traumas and really trying to figure out how to manage our mindset on a daily, it comes down to us understanding from a confidence perspective that you may be confident in the thing that you’re doing. It’s not the exact same as being certain in how you’re going about it. Nick McGowan 00:28Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self-Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show, I wanna talk about how confidence and certainty factor into personal growth. What is confidence, and what is certainty? Confidence is feeling like you’re able to actually get something done. It’s really the intent for the impact that you wanna have. You’re confident that you feel like you can get this thing done, whatever that thing is. Certainty is 100 % knowing that it’s going to happen. Nick McGowan 00:58And there’s a small little bit of difference between those and really kind of a gray area where certainty and confidence can intersect, but they can also play at odds with each other. If you go into something certain that something’s going to happen, you’re going to lack confidence or maybe you’re going to have a bit more confidence. I think about it in the sense of if you know that you want to go in and have a really tough conversation with somebody you work with, that’s different. Nick McGowan 01:26than a tough conversation with your partner or your spouse or somebody that you love. You may be certain going into that, that you have the facts, you have the things together, you need to be able to have the proper conversation. And you can feel confident knowing that you have those, but anything can happen at that point. Somebody could say something, somebody could bring something up that you’re unaware of, and that can knock down your confidence. That could absolutely destroy your certainty at that point. Nick McGowan 01:55So if you think of confidence, just being confident in moving through the world, I’m sure you’ve seen different people that seem to be super confident, but have no idea what they’re doing in life. When you’re confident and you have this internal belief that what you’re doing, you’re going to give it your all and that you’re able to move into something without any hesitation, that’s vastly different than even having some confidence. Nick McGowan 02:21Like if you kinda know I’m gonna move into this situation or this conversation and I feel good about what I’m doing, that’s vastly different than being able to move into something with full confidence. You’ve experienced that, we’ve all experienced that. No matter what we’ve done in life or what we’re doing right now, whether that’s purpose work or that’s working on past traumas and really trying to figure out how to manage our mindset on a daily, it comes down to us understanding from a confidence perspective. Nick McGowan 02:51that you may be confident in the thing that you’re doing. It’s not the exact same as being certain in how you’re going about it. Makes me think of when people talk about practicing, practice makes perfect. I’ve also heard that if you practice the wrong things, of course you’re not gonna be perfect in what you’re trying to be perfect in, which makes sense. That’s kind of a duh situation. A lot of people will actually go through life working on things that they think they need to work on and being confident that they’re working Nick McGowan 03:19on the things that they’re working on that actually tie to deeper core wounds and will make actual change in their life. They’re not certain about it. And finding certainty in what you’re doing can really take a level of confidence, but also a level of understanding and empathy and courageousness to be able to move through something with certainty. I feel like some of this may be a bit ambiguous and I’m somewhat trying to keep it that way because Nick McGowan 03:48your situation in life and your context is different than mine. Even if they’re similar, there’s still nuances and differences and things that we go through that maybe affect us differently or affect the way that we handle situations differently or the way that we view life on the daily. When I think of confidence and I think of certainty tying into and really factoring into our personal growth, I think about being confident in myself being able to do the work. Nick McGowan 04:17And even if I don’t always feel certain that the work will help me grow and change, I am confident in the patterns that I’ve seen over the course of time and how things work, which then ties back into my certainty. Let’s think about that. For confident in the things that we’re doing and we’re working on, certainty can come along with that as we see examples of how things work, like the work that we’re doing for ourself. Nick McGowan 04:43As a prime example, if you’re going through therapy right now, maybe you’ve been in therapy for years and years and years. I am certain that therapy works, but I’m uncertain if what you’re doing right now is actually working for you. The modality may need to be changed up. If you’re doing talk therapy right now, maybe it’s EMDR or DBT or something that really gets deeper to your subconscious to be able to rewrite those stories and change those. I’m certain that Nick McGowan 05:12Anything like that can ultimately help, but I’m uncertain of what’s exactly going to help you. If you’re confident and moving through and trying the different modalities, you can also be certain that health and happiness and growth will come from that. If we think about being able to tie the two together, if we don’t have confidence, we’re probably pretty uncertain about something. If we’re certain about something, we probably at least have a little bit of confidence to it. Nick McGowan 05:40and a little bit of boost that goes along with it. I just wanted to have this be a relatively quick episode to be able to get into those two topics. And I’m gonna expand upon those just throughout other episodes as I do. That was on my heart today to be able to talk about. And I want you to be able to take from this that if you’re certain about a situation will turn out positive or negative, then you can be confident in some ways that you’re right. But if you’re certain about a situation that’s positive or negative, Nick McGowan 06:09that will actually affect your confidence. And if you’re able to move through life with confidence based on healing and doing the work to be able to heal things that have shaped the way that you look at really life now, you will have more confidence. And therefore, I believe you’ll have more certainty. If you have questions, if you want me to dive deeper into this or you wanna understand how do I actually gain confidence in my life? How do I gain certainty in my life? And how do I see the differences in those? I’d love to be able to help you out. Nick McGowan 06:39Please reach out to me. Thank you, and I appreciate your time. Thanks for listening to today’s episode. What did you think? I’d love to hear your thoughts. If you enjoyed the episode, please jump over to Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you consume podcasts and subscribe, rate, and leave a five-star review. It’s very much appreciated and also helps other people find the show and experience healing just like us. Please also head over to our website, The Mindset and Self Mastery Show. Nick McGowan 07:14where you can check out all of our episodes and find additional resources to help you manage your mindset as you seek self-mastery. So with that, thank you and remember, your mindset matters and so do you. https://youtu.be/yLI7lLnclAY

We're proud to release this ahead of Ryan's keynote at AIE Europe. Hit the bell, get notified when it is live! Attendees: come prepped for Ryan's AMA with Vibhu after.Move over, context engineering. Now it's time for Harness engineering and the age of the token billionaires.Ryan Lopopolo of OpenAI is leading that charge, recently publishing a lengthy essay on Harness Eng that has become the talk of the town:In it, Ryan peeled back the curtains on how the recently announced OpenAI Frontier team have become OpenAI's top Codex users, running a >1m LOC codebase with 0 human written code and, crucially for the Dark Factory fans, no human REVIEWED code before merge. Ryan is admirably evangelical about this, calling it borderline “negligent” if you aren't using >1B tokens a day (roughly $2-3k/day in token spend based on market rates and caching assumptions):Over the past five months, they ran an extreme experiment: building and shipping an internal beta product with zero manually written code. Through the experiment, they adopted a different model of engineering work: when the agent failed, instead of prompting it better or to “try harder,” the team would look at “what capability, context, or structure is missing?”The result was Symphony, “a ghost library” and reference Elixir implementation (by Alex Kotliarskyi) that sets up a massive system of Codex agents all extensively prompted with the specificity of a proper PRD spec, but without full implementation:The future starts taking shape as one where coding agents stop being copilots and start becoming real teammates anyone can use and Codex is doubling down on that mission with their Superbowl messaging of “you can just build things”.Across Codex, internal observability stacks, and the multi-agent orchestration system his team calls Symphony, Ryan has been pushing what happens when you optimize an entire codebase, workflow, and organization around agent legibility instead of human habit.We sat down with Ryan to dig into how OpenAI's internal teams actually use Codex, why the real bottleneck in AI-native software development is now human attention rather than tokens, how fast build loops, observability, specs, and skills let agents operate autonomously, why software increasingly needs to be written for the model as much as for the engineer, and how Frontier points toward a future where agents can safely do economically valuable work across the enterprise.We discuss:* Ryan's background from Snowflake, Brex, Stripe, and Citadel to OpenAI Frontier Product Exploration, where he works on new product development for deploying agents safely at enterprise scale* The origin of “harness engineering” and the constraint that kicked off the whole experiment: Ryan deliberately refused to write code himself so the agent had to do the job end to end* Building an internal product over five months with zero lines of human-written code, more than a million lines in the repo, and thousands of PRs across multiple Codex model generations* Why early Codex was painfully slow at first, and how the team learned to decompose tasks, build better primitives, and gradually turn the agent into a much faster engineer than any individual human* The obsession with fast build times: why one minute became the upper bound for the inner loop, and how the team repeatedly retooled the build system to keep agents productive* Why humans became the bottleneck, and how Ryan's team shifted from reviewing code directly to building systems, observability, and context that let agents review, fix, and merge work autonomously* Skills, docs, tests, markdown trackers, and quality scores as ways of encoding engineering taste and non-functional requirements directly into context the agent can use* The shift from predefined scaffolds to reasoning-model-led workflows, where the harness becomes the box and the model chooses how to proceed* Symphony, OpenAI's internal Elixir-based orchestration layer for spinning up, supervising, reworking, and coordinating large numbers of coding agents across tickets and repos* Why code is increasingly disposable, why worktrees and merge conflicts matter less when agents can resolve them, and what it really means to fully delegate the PR lifecycle* “Ghost libraries”, spec-driven software, and the idea that a coding agent can reproduce complex systems from a high-fidelity specification rather than shared source code* The broader future of Frontier: safely deploying observable, governable agents into enterprises, and building the collaboration, security, and control layers needed for real-world agentic workRyan Lopopolo* X: https://x.com/_lopopolo* Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanlopopolo/* Website: https://hyperbo.la/contact/Timestamps00:00:00 Introduction: Harness Engineering and OpenAI Frontier00:02:20 Ryan's background and the “no human-written code” experiment00:08:48 Humans as the bottleneck: systems thinking, observability, and agent workflows00:12:24 Skills, scaffolds, and encoding engineering taste into context00:17:17 What humans still do, what agents already own, and why software must be agent-legible00:24:27 Delegating the PR lifecycle: worktrees, merge conflicts, and non-functional requirements00:31:57 Spec-driven software, “ghost libraries,” and the path to Symphony00:35:20 Symphony: orchestrating large numbers of coding agents00:43:42 Skill distillation, self-improving workflows, and team-wide learning00:50:04 CLI design, policy layers, and building token-efficient tools for agents00:59:43 What current models still struggle with: zero-to-one products and gnarly refactors01:02:05 Frontier's vision for enterprise AI deployment01:08:15 Culture, humor, and teaching agents how the company works01:12:29 Harness vs. training, Codex model progress, and “you can just do things”01:15:09 Bellevue, hiring, and OpenAI's expansion beyond San FranciscoTranscriptRyan Lopopolo: I do think that there is an interesting space to explore here with Codex, the harness, as part of building AI products, right? There's a ton of momentum around getting the models to be good at coding. We've seen big leaps in like the task complexity with each incremental model release where if you can figure out how to collapse a product that you're trying to.Build a user journey that you're trying to solve into code. It's pretty natural to use the Codex Harness to solve that problem for you. It's done all the wiring and lets you just communicate in prompts. To let the model cook, you have to step back, right? Like you need to take a systems thinking mindset to things and constantly be asking, where is the Asian making mistakes?Where am I spending my time? How can I not spend that time going forward? And then build confidence in the automation that I'm putting in place. So I have solved this part of the SDLC.swyx: [00:01:00] All right.[00:01:03] Meet Ryan swyx: We're in the studio with Ryan from OpenAI. Welcome.Ryan Lopopolo: Hi,swyx: Thanks for visiting San Francisco and thanks for spending some time with us.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah, thank you. I'm super excited to be here.swyx: You wrote a blockbuster article on harness engineering. It's probably going to be the defining piece of this emerging discipline, huh?Ryan Lopopolo: Thank you. It is it's been fun to feel like we've defined the discourse in some sense.swyx: Let's contextualize a little bit, this first podcast you've ever done. Yes. And thank you for spending with us. What is, where is this coming from? What team are you in all that jazz?Ryan Lopopolo: Sure, sure.Ryan Lopopolo: I work on Frontier Product Exploration, new product development in the space of OpenAI Frontier, which is our enterprise platform for deploying agents safely at scale, with good governance in any business. And. The role of VMI team has been to figure out novel ways to deploy our models into package and products that we can sell as solutions to enterprises.swyx: And you have a background, I'll just squeeze it in there. Snowflake, brick, [00:02:00] stripe, citadel.Ryan Lopopolo: Yes. Yes. Same. Any kind of customerswyx: entire life. Yes. The exact kind of customer that you want to,Vibhu: so I'll say, I was actually, I didn't expect the background when I looked at your Twitter, I'm seeing the opposite.Stuff like this. So you've got the mindset of like full send AI, coding stuff about slop, like buckling in your laptop on your Waymo's. Yes. And then I look at your profile, I'm like, oh, you're just like, you're in the other end too. Oh, perfect. Makes perfect.Ryan Lopopolo: I it's quite fun to be AI maximalist if you're gonna live that persona.Open eye is the place to do it. And it'sswyx: token is what you say.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. Certainly helps that we have no rate limits internally. And I can go, like you said, full send at this stay.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. So the Frontier, and you're a special team within O Frontier.Ryan Lopopolo: We had been given some space to cook, which has been super, super exciting.[00:02:47] Zero Code ExperimentRyan Lopopolo: And this is why I started with kind of a out there constraint to not write any of the code myself. I was figuring if we're trying to make agents that can be deployed into end to enterprises, they should be [00:03:00] able to do all the things that I do. And having worked with these coding models, these coding harnesses over 6, 7, 8 months, I do feel like the models are there enough, the harnesses are there enough where they're isomorphic to me in capability and the ability to do the job.So starting with this constraint of I can't write the code meant that the only way I could do my job was to get the agent to do my job.Vibhu: And like a, just a bit of background before that. This is basically the article. So what you guys did is five months of working on an internal tool, zero lines of code over a mi, a million lines of code in the total code base.You say it was cenex, more like it was cenex faster than you would've. If you had done it by end. SoRyan Lopopolo: yeah, thatVibhu: was the mindset going into this, right?Ryan Lopopolo: That's right.[00:03:46] Model Upgrades LessonsRyan Lopopolo: Started with some of the very first versions of Codex CLI, with the Codex Mini model, which was obviously much less capable than the ones we have today.Which was also a very good constraint, right? Quite a visceral feeling to ask the [00:04:00] model to build you a product feature. And it just not being able to assemble the pieces together.Which kind of defined one of the mindsets we had for going into this, which is whenever the model just cannot, you always pop open at the task, double click into it, and build smaller building blocks that then you can reassemble into the broader objective.And it was quite painful to do this. Honestly, the first month and a half was. 10 times slower than I would be. But because we paid that cost, we ended up getting to something much more productive than any one engineer could be because we built the tools, the assembly station for the agent to do the whole thing.[00:04:43] Model Generations, Build Systems & Background ShellsRyan Lopopolo: But yeah, so onward to G BT 5, 5, 1, 5, 2, 5, 3, 5 4. To go through all these model generations and see their kind of corks and different working styles also meant we had to adapt the code base to change things up when the model was revved. [00:05:00] One interesting thing here is five two, the Codex harness at the time did not have background shells in it, which means we were able to rely on blocking scripts to perform long horizon work.But with five, three and background shells, it became less patient, less willing to block. So we had to retool the entire build system to complete in under a minute and. This is not a thing I would expect to be able to do in a code base where people have opinions. But because the only goal was to make the Asian productive over the course of a week, we went from a bespoke make file build to Basil, to turbo to nx and just left it there because builds were fast at that point.swyx: Interesting. Talk more about Turbo TenX. That's interesting ‘cause that's the other direction that other people have been doing.Ryan Lopopolo: Ultimately I have. Not a lot of experience with actual frontend repo architecture.swyx: You're talking that Jessica built the sky. So I'm like, I know the NX team. I know Turbo from Jared [00:06:00] Palmer.And I'm like, yeah, that's an interesting comparison.[00:06:02] One Minute Build LoopRyan Lopopolo: The hill we were climbing right, was make it fast.swyx: Is there a micro front end involved? Is it how how complex reactRyan Lopopolo: electron base single app sort of thingswyx: And must be under a minute. That's an interesting limitation. I'm actually not super familiar with the background shelf stuff.Probably was talked about in the fight three release.Ryan Lopopolo: BA basically means that codex is able to spawn commands in the background and then go continue to work while it waits for them to finish. So it can spawn an expensive build and then continue reviewing the code, for example.swyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: And this helps it be more time efficient for the user invoking the harness.swyx: And I guess and just to really nail this, like what does one minute matter? Like why not five, okay, good. We want no. WeRyan Lopopolo: want the inner loop to be as fast as possible. Okay. One minute was just a nice round number and we were able to hit it.swyx: And if it doesn't complete, it kills it or some something,Ryan Lopopolo: No.We just take that as a signal that we need to stop what we're doing, double click, decompose a build graph a bit to get us to high back under so that we [00:07:00] can able the agent continue to operate.swyx: It's almost like you're, it's like a ratchet. It's like you're forcing build time discipline, because if you don't, it'll just grow and grow.That's right. And you mentioned that my current, like the software I work on currently is at 12 minutes. It sucks.Ryan Lopopolo: This has been my experience with platform teams in the past, where you have an envelope of acceptable build times and you let it go up to breach and then you spend two, three weeks to bring it back down to the lower end of the average low bed stop.But because tokens are so cheap Yeah. And we're so insanely parallel with the model, we can just constantly be gardening this thing to make sure that we maintain these in variants, which means. There's way less dispersion in the code and the SDLC, which means we can simplify in a way and rely on a lot more in variance as we write the software.[00:07:45] Observability, Traces & Local Dev StackVibhu: Lovely.[00:07:46] Humans Are BottleneckVibhu: You mentioned in your article, like humans became the bottleneck, right? You kicked off as a team of three people. You're putting out a million line of code, like 1500 prs, basically. What's the mindset there? So as much as code is disposable, you're doing a lot of review. A lot [00:08:00] of the article talks about how you wanna rephrase everything is prompting everything, is what the agent can't see.It's kind of garbage, right? You shouldn't have it in there. So what's like the high level of how you went about building it, and then how you address okay, humans are just PR review. Like how is human in the loop for this?Ryan Lopopolo: We've moved beyond even the humans reviewing the code as well.[00:08:19] Human Review, PR Automation & Agent Code ReviewRyan Lopopolo: Most of the human review is post merge at this point.But post, post merge, that's not even reviewed. That's justswyx: Oh, let's just make ourselves happy by YouRyan Lopopolo: haven't used fundamentally. The model is trivially paralyzable, right? As many GPUs and tokens as I am willing to spend, I can have capacity to work with my hood base.The only fundamentally scarce thing is the synchronous human attention of my team. There's only so many hours in the day we have to eat lunch. I would like to sleep, although it's quite difficult to, stop poking the machine because it makes me want to feed it. You have to step back, right?Like you need to take a systems thinking mindset to things and [00:09:00] constantly be asking where is the agent making mistakes? Where am I spending my time? How can I not spend that time going forward? And then build confidence in the automation that I'm putting in place. So I have solved this part of the SDLC, and usually what that has looked like is like we started needing to pay very close attention to the code because the agent did not have the right building blocks to produce.Modular software that decomposed appropriately that was reliable and observable and actually accrued a working front end in these things, right?[00:09:35] Observability First SetupRyan Lopopolo: So in order to not spend all of our time sitting in front of a terminal at most, doing one or two things at a time, invested in giving the model that observability, which is that that graph in the post here.swyx: Yeah. Let's walk through this traces and which existed firstRyan Lopopolo: we started with just the app and the whole rest of it. From vector through to all these login metrics, APIs was, I dunno, half an [00:10:00] afternoon of my time. We have intentionally chosen very high level fast developer tools. There's a ton of great stuff out there now.We use me a bunch, which makes it trivial to pull down all these go written Victoria Stack binaries in our local development. Tiny little bit of python glue to spin all these up. And off you go. One neat thing here is we have tried to invert things as much as possible, which is instead of setting up an environment to spawn the coding agent into, instead we spawn the coding agent, like that's the entry point.It's just Codex. And then we give Codex via skills and scripts the ability to boot the stack if it chooses to, and then tell it how to set some end variables. So the app and local Devrel points at this stack that it has chosen to spin up. And this I think is like the fundamental difference between reasoning models and the four ones and four ohs of the past, where these models could not think so you had to put them in [00:11:00] boxes with a predefined set of state transitions.Whereas here we have the model, the harness be the whole box. And give it a bunch of options for how to proceed with enough context for it to make intelligent choices. SoVibhu: sales, so like a lot of that is around scaffolding, right? Yes. Previous agents, you would define a scaffold. It would operate in that.Lube, try again. That's pivoted off from when we've had reasoning models. They're seeming to perform better when you don't have a scaffold, right? That's right.[00:11:28] Docs Skills GuardrailsVibhu: And you go into like niches here too, like your SPEC MD and like having a very short agent MG Agent md.swyx: Yes. Yes.Vibhu: Yeah. So you even lay out what it is here, but I likeswyx: the table contents.Vibhu: Yeah.swyx: Like stuff like this, it really helps guide people because everyone's trying to do this.Ryan Lopopolo: This structure also makes it super cheap to put new content into the repository to steer both the humans and the agents.swyx: You, you reinvented skills, right?Vibhu: One big agents andswyx: skills from first princip holdsRyan Lopopolo: all skills did not exist when we started doing this.Vibhu: You have a short [00:12:00] one 100 line overall table of contents and then you have little skills, right? Core beliefs, MD tech tracker. Yeah. Yeah. The scale is overRyan Lopopolo: The tech jet tracker and the quality score are pretty interesting because this is basically a tiny little scaffold, like a markdown table, which is a hook for Codex to review all the business logic that we have defined in the app, assess how it matches all these documented guardrails and propose follow up work for itself.Before beads and all these ticketing systems, we were just tracking follow up work as notes in a markdown file, which, we could spa an agent on Aron to burn down. There's this really neat thing that like the models fundamentally crave text. So a lot of what we have done here is figure out ways to inject textswyx: intoRyan Lopopolo: the system right when we get a page, because we're missing a timeout, for example.I can just add Codex in Slack on that page and say, I'm gonna fix this by adding a timeout. Please update our reliability documentation. To require that all network calls have [00:13:00] timeouts. So I have not only made a point in time fix, but also like durably encoded this process knowledge around what good looks like.swyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: And we give that to the root coding agent as it goes and does the thing. But you can also use that to distill tests out of, or a code review agent, which is pointed at the same things to narrow the acceptable universe of the code that's produced.swyx: I think one of the concerns I have with that kind of stuff is you think you're making the right call by making, it's persisted for all time across everything.Yes. But then you didn't think about the exceptions that you need to make, right? And that you have to roll it back.Vibhu: Part of it isswyx: also sometimes it can follow your s instructions too.Vibhu: It's somewhat a skill, right? So it determines when it uses the tools, right? Like it's not like it'll run outta every call.It'll determine when it wants to check quality score, right?Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. And we do in the prompts we give these agents, allow them to push back,[00:13:51] Agent Code Review RulesRyan Lopopolo: When we first started adding code review agents to the pr, it would be Codex, CLI. Locally writes the change, pushes up a PR on [00:14:00] those PR synchronizations of review agent fires.It posts a comment. We instruct Codex that it has to at least acknowledge and respond to that feedback. And initially the Codex driving the code author was willing to be bullied by the PR reviewer, which meant you could end up in a situation where things were not converging. So yeah, we had to,swyx: he's just a thrash.Ryan Lopopolo: We had to add more optionality to the prompts on both of these things, right? The reviewer agents were instructed to bias toward merging the thing to not surface anything greater than a P two in priority. We didn't really define P two, but we gave it, youswyx: did define P two.Ryan Lopopolo: We gave it a framework within which to score its outputswyx: and then greater than P zero is worse, right?Yes. P two is very good.Ryan Lopopolo: P zero is you will mute the code place ifswyx: you merch thisRyan Lopopolo: thing, right?swyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: But also on the code authoring agent side, we also gave it the flexibility to either defer or push back against review feedback, right? This happens all the time, right? Like I happen to notice something and leave a code review, [00:15:00] which.Could blow up the scope by a factor of two. I usually don't mean for that to be addressed Exactly. In the moment. It's more of an FYI file it to the backlog, pick it up in the next fix it week sort of thing. And without the context that this is permissible, the coding agents are gonna bias toward what they do, which is following instructions.swyx: Yeah.[00:15:19] Autonomous Merging Flowswyx: I do wanted to check in on a couple things, right? Sure. All the coding review agent, it can merge autonomously. I think that's something that a lot of people aren't comfortable with. And you have a list here of how much agents do they do Product code and tests, CI configuration and release tooling, internal Devrel tools, documentation eval, harness review, comments, scripts that manage the repository itself, production dashboard definition files, like everything.Yes. And so they're just all churning at the same time, is there like a record that, that any human on the team pulls to stop everythingRyan Lopopolo: Because we are building a native application here. We're not doing continuous deploy. So there's still a human in the loop for cutting the release branch.I see. We require a blessed [00:16:00] human approved smoke test of the app before we promote it to distribution, these sort of things.swyx: So you're working on the app, you're not building like infrastructure where you have like nines of reliability, that kinda stuff?Ryan Lopopolo: That's correct. That's correct. Okay. And also like full recognition here that all of this activity took in a completely greenfield repository.There's. Should be no script that this applies generally toswyx: this is a production thing, you're gonna shipRyan Lopopolo: toswyx: customers. Of course. Yeah, of course. So this is realVibhu: And like one of the things there is, you mentioned you started this as a repo from scratch. The onboarding first month or so was pretty, it was like working backwards, right?Yeah. And then you had to work with the system and now you're at that point where you know, you're very autonomous. I'm curious like, okay, so what, how human in the loop is it? So what are the bottlenecks that you wish you could still automate? And part of that is also like, where do you see the model trajectory improving and offloading more human in the loop?We just got 5.4. It's a really good,Ryan Lopopolo: fantastic model, by the way.Vibhu: Yeah. Yeah. It's the first one that's merged. Top tier coding. So it's codex level coding and reasoning. So general reasoning both in one model. SoRyan Lopopolo: andVibhu: computer [00:17:00] use vision.Ryan Lopopolo: Now we now with five four, I can just have Codex write the blog post, whereas for this one I had to balance between chat.swyx: Oh, I need to, I might be out of a job. Oh my God.Ryan Lopopolo: Oh,swyx: I know. You just gave me an idea for a completely AI newsletter that five four could do. Yeah, I get it Now.Ryan Lopopolo: This sort of thing is just one example of closing the loop, right? Like the dashboard thing you mentioned. We have Codex authoring the Js ON, for the Grafana dashboards and publishing them and also responding to the pages, which means when it gets the page, it knows exactly which dashboards are defined and what alerts.What alert was triggered by which exact log in the code base. ‘cause all of this stuff is collated together.swyx: It has to own everything.Yes. Yeah. Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: And it means that if we have an outage that did not result in a page. It has the existing set of dashboards available to it. It has the existing set of metrics and logs and can figure out where the gaps in the dashboard are or [00:18:00] in the underlying metrics and fix them in one go.In the same way, you would have a full stack engineer be able to drive a feature from the backend all the way to the front end.Vibhu: So it, it seems like a lot of the work you guys had to do was you as a small team are fully working for a way that the model wants the software to be written. It's like less human legible for better. Code legibility, agent legibility. How do you think that affects broader teams? So one at OpenAI, do liaison, like this is how software should be written. Like I can imagine, say you join a new team with this methodology, this mindset there's ways that, teams do code review, teams write code, like teams are structured and a lot of it is for human legibility.So should we all swap? Like how does this play back one broader into OpenAI and then like broader into the software engineering, right? Is it like teams that pick this up will it's pretty drastic, right? You have to make a pretty big switch. Should they just full send Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: The mindset is very much that I'm removed from the process, right? I can't really have deep code level opinions about [00:19:00] things. It's as if I'm. Group tech leading a 500 person organization.Vibhu: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Like it's not appropriate for me to be in the weeds on every pr. This is why that post merge code review thing is like a good analog here, right?Like I have some representative sample of the code as it is written, and I have to use that to infer what the teams are struggling with, where they could use help, where they're already moving quickly and I can pivot my focus elsewhere.Vibhu: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: So I don't really have too many opinions around the code as it is written.I do, however, have a command based class, which is used to have repeatable chunks of business logic that comes with tracing and metrics and observability for free. And the thing to focus on is not how that business logic is structured, but that it uses this primitive ‘cause I know that's gonna give leverage by default.Vibhu: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah, back to that sort of systems stinking,Vibhu: and you have part of that in your blog post, enforcing architecture and ta taste how you set boundaries for what's used. There's also a section on redefining [00:20:00] engineering and stuff, but yeah, it's just, it's interesting to hear,Ryan Lopopolo: and as the models have gotten better, they have gotten better at proposing these abstractions to unblock themselves, which again, lets me move higher and higher up the stack to look deeper into the future on what ultimately blocked the team from shipping.swyx: Yeah. You mentioned so you, this is primarily a, it is like a 1 million line of code base electron app. But it manages its own services as well, so it's like a backend for front end type thing.Ryan Lopopolo: We do have a backend in there, but that's hosted in the cloud.Yeah. This sort of structure is actually within the separate main and render processesWithin theswyx: electric.That's just how electronic works.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah, of course. So have also treated like. MVC style decomposition with the same level of rigor, which has been very fun.swyx: I have a fun pun. This is a tangent, NVC is model view controller. Any sort of full stack web Devrel knows that.But my AI native version of this is Model view Claw, the clause the harness.Ryan Lopopolo: That's right. That's right. I do think that there is an interesting space to [00:21:00] explore here with Codex, the harness as part of building AI products, right? There's a ton of momentum around getting the models to be good at coding.We've seen big leaps in like the task complexity with each incremental model release where if you can figure out how to collapse a product that you're trying to build, a user journey that you're trying to solve into code, it's pretty natural to use the Codex Harness to solve that problem for you. It's done all the wiring and lets you just communicate and prompts to let the model cook.Yeah. It's been very fun. And there's also a very engineering legible way of increasing capabil. It's fantastic, right? Yeah. Just give you, just give the model scripts, the same scripts you would already build for yourself.swyx: Yeah.Yeah. So for listeners, this is Ryan saying that software engineering or coding against will eat knowledge work like the non-coding parts that you would normally think.Oh, you have to build a separate agent for it. No, start a coding agent and go out from there. Which open Claw has like it's pie Underhood.Ryan Lopopolo: [00:22:00] Yes.Vibhu: Basically define your task in code. Everything is a codingswyx: agent by the way. Since I brought it up, it's probably the only place we bring it up. Is any open claw usage from you?Any?Ryan Lopopolo: No. No. Not for me. I don't have any spare Mac Minis rattling around my house.swyx: You can afford it? No. I just, I'm curious if it's changed anything in opening eye yet, but it's probably early days. And then the other, the other thing I, I wanna pull on here is like you mentioned ticketing systems and you mentioned prs and I'm wondering if both those things have to go away or be reinvented for this kind of coding.So the git itself and is like very hostile to multi-agent.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. We make very heavy use of work trees.swyx: But like even then, like I just did a, dropped a podcast yesterday with Cursors saying, and they said they're getting rid of work trees ‘cause it still has too many merge conflicts.It's still un too un unintuitive. But go ahead.Ryan Lopopolo: The models are really great at resolving merge conflicts. Yeah. And to get to a state where I'm not synchronously in the loop in my terminal, I almost don't care that there are mergeswyx: with disposable.[00:23:00] Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: We invoke a dollar land skill and that coaches codex to push the PR Wait for human and agent reviewers Wait for CI to be green.Fix the flakes if there are any merged upstream. If the PR comes into conflict, wait for everything to pass. Put it in the merge queue. Deal with flakes until it's in Maine. End. This is what it means to delegate fully, right? This is in a, very large model re probably a significant tax on humans to get PRS merged, but the agent is more than capable of doing this and I really don't have to think about it other than keep my laptop open.swyx: Yeah. I used to be much more of a control freak, but now I'm like, yeah, actually you could do a better job of this than me. Yeah. With the right context. Yes.[00:23:47] Encoding Requirementsswyx: Anything else in harness in general? Just this piece, I just wanna make sure we,Ryan Lopopolo: I think one thing that I maybe didn't make super clear in the article that I heard on Twitter as an interesting, that's respond [00:24:00]swyx: to them.What's the chatter and then what's your response?Ryan Lopopolo: Ultimately, all the things that we have encoded in docs and tests and review agents and all these things are ways to put all the non-functional requirements of building high scale, high quality, reliable software into a space that prompt injects the agent.We either write it down as docs, we add links where the error messages tell how to do the right thing. So the whole meta of the thing is to basically tease out of the heads of all the engineers on my team, what they think good looks like, what they would do by default, or what they would coach a new hire on the team to do to get things to merch.And that's why we pay attention to all the mistakes, mistakes that the agent makes, right? This is code being written that is misaligned with some as yet not written down, non-functional requirement.swyx: Sorry, what? Did the online people misunderstand orRyan Lopopolo: No,swyx: whatyouRyan Lopopolo: responded to? Somebody just literally said that.I was like, oh yeah,swyx: okay,Ryan Lopopolo: This is the [00:25:00] thing. This is what I've been doing. Oh, youswyx: agree? Yeah. I see. Interesting.Ryan Lopopolo: One other neat thing, which I did totally did not expect is folks were just. Taking the link to the article and giving it to pi or Codex and say, make my repo this,Vibhu: you achi a whole recursion.Ryan Lopopolo: And it was wildly effective. Really? It was wildly effective. NoVibhu: way. It just actually is something I tried with five, four yesterday. I didn't have time. Last time I was like out speaking of something, and this is one of my things, I was like, okay, I have this article. Can we just scaffold out what it would be like to run this?And I, I did it first as that and then I was like, okay, let me take another little side repo and say okay, if I was to fully automate this like this because I haven't written a line of code, it'sRyan Lopopolo: like over full, setVibhu: it right. The side thing I'm doing of voice. TTS I'm just like, slobbing out, whatever.It's nothing production. I'm like, how would I make this like this? And it's actually like a really good way. It's like a good way to learn what could be changed, what could be like, it's just a good analyzing, right? You give it all the codes, you give it all the context, you give it the article and it walks you through it very well.That's right. That's right.[00:25:57] Inlining Dependencies[00:25:57] Dependencies Going Away & Brett Taylor's Responseswyx: I guess one more thing before we go to Symphony is I wanted to cover [00:26:00] Brett Taylor's response. We had him on the show. He is your chairman, which is wild. Yeah. That he's reading your articles as well and like getting engaged in it. He says software dependencies are going away.Basically they can just be like vendored. Yes. Response.Ryan Lopopolo: Aswyx: hundred percent. A hundred percent agree. You still pro qr, you still pay Datadog. You still pay Temporal. Thank you.Ryan Lopopolo: Yep. The level of complexity of the dependencies that we can internalize is, I would say low, medium right now. Just based on model capability.What does the,swyx: what is medium?Ryan Lopopolo: I would say like a. A couple thousand line dependency is a thing that we could in-house No problem. Call in an afternoon of time. One neat thing about it is like probably most of that code you don't even need. Like by in-house and abstraction, you can strip away all the generic parts of it and only focus on what you need to enable the specific thing.Yes. You're building,swyx: I've been calling this the end of b******t plugins.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah.swyx: Because there's so much when I published an open source thing, I want to accept everything, be liberal. I want to accept, this is post's law, but that means there's so much bloat. Yes. There's so much overhead.Ryan Lopopolo: One other neat thing about [00:27:00] this too is when we deploy Codex Security on the repo, it is able to deeply review and change. The internalized dependencies in a much lower friction way than it would be to like, push patches upstream, wait for them to be released, pull them down, make sure that's compatible with all the transitive I have in my repo and things like that.So it's also much lower friction to internalize some of these things if code is free. ‘cause the tokens are cheap sort of thing.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. I think like the only argument I have against this is basically scale testing, which obviously the larger pieces of software like Linux, MySQL, he calls up even the Datadog and Temporals and then maybe security testing where Yes.Classically, I think, is it linis tos, it said security open source is the best disinfectant.Ryan Lopopolo: Many eyes.swyx: Many eyes. And if inline your dependencies and code them up, you're gonna have to relearn mistakes from other people that Yep.Ryan Lopopolo: Yep. And to internalize that dependency, you're back to zero and you have to start.Reassembling all those bits and pieces to Yeah. Have [00:28:00] high confidence in the code as it is written. Yeah.Vibhu: Even part of the first intro of this, you basically mentioned like everything was written by codex, including internal tooling, right? So internal tooling, like when you're visualizing what's going on it's writing it for itself.swyx: Yeah. I'm built internal tools way I now, and like I just show them off and they're like, how long did you spend? And I didn't spend any time. I just prompted it,Ryan Lopopolo: very funny story here.swyx: Yeah, go ahead.Ryan Lopopolo: We had deployed our app to the first dozen users internally had some performance issues, so we asked them to export a trace for us get a tar ball, gave it to our on-call engineer, and he did a fantastic job of working with Codex to build this beautiful local Devrel tool, next JS app, the drag and drop the tar ball in, and it visualizes the entire trace.It's fantastic. Took an afternoon, but none of this was necessary. Because you could just spin up codex and give it the tar ball and ask the same thing and get the response immediately. So in a way, optimizing for human [00:29:00] legibility of that debugging process was wrong. It kept him in the loop unnecessarily when instead he could have just like Codex cooked for five minutes and gotten this same.swyx: Yeah, you verify your instincts here of this is how we used to do it. Or this is how I would have used to solve it.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. In this local observability stack. Like sure, you can de deploy Yeager to visualize the traces, but I wouldn't expect to be looking at the traces in the first place because I'm not gonna write the code to fix them.swyx: Yeah. So basically there needs to be like this kind of house stack and owning the whole loop. I think that is very well established. And it sounds like you might be like sharing more about that in the future, right?Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. I think we're excited to do[00:29:36] Ghost Libraries Specs[00:29:36] Ghost Libraries & Distributing Software as SpecsRyan Lopopolo: We're gonna talk about Symphony in a little bit, but like the way we distribute it as a spec, which I think folks are calling Ghost Libraries on Twitter.This is like a such a cool name. It does mean it becomes much cheaper to share software with the world, right? You define a spec, how you could build your own specifying as much as is required for a coding agent to reassemble it [00:30:00] locally. The flow here is very cool. Like we have taken. All the scaffolding that has existed in our proprietary repo spun up a new one.Ask Codex with our repo as a reference. Write the spec. We tell it. Spin up a team ox spawn a disconnected codex to implement the spec. Wait for it to be done. Spawn another codex and another team ox to review the spec com or review the implementation compared to upstream and update the spec so it diverges less.And then you just loop over and over Ralph style until you get a spec that is with high fidelity able to reproduce the system as it is. It's fantastic.Vibhu: And you're basically, you're not really adding any of your human bias in there, right? That's correct. A lot of times people write a spec and be like, okay, I think it should be done this way, and you'll riff on something.And it's no, the agent could have just handled it like you're still scaffolding in a sense, right? I want it done this way. It can determine its spec better.swyx: That's right. That's right. Part of me it, I'm, I've been working a lot on evals recently, and part of me is wondering if [00:31:00] an agent can produce a spec that it cannot solve.Is it always capable of things that he can imagine or can you imagine things that it is impossible to do?Ryan Lopopolo: I think with Symphony, we, there's like this there's this axis where you have things that are easier, hard, or established or new, right? And I think things that are hard and new is still something that the models need humans.Yeah. Drive.swyx: Yeah. Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: But I think those other quadrants are largely salt. Given the right scaffold and the right thing that's gonna drive the agent to completion,swyx: it's crazy that it solved,Ryan Lopopolo: but it means that the humans, the ones with limited time and attention get to work on the hardest stuff, like the problems where it's pure white space out in front. Or like the deepest refactorings where you don't know what the proper shape of the interfaces are. And this is where I wanna spend my time. ‘cause it lets me set up for the next level of scale.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Let's introduce Symphony.I think we've been mentioning it every now and then. Elixir. Interesting option.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah.swyx: Yeah. I'm not,Ryan Lopopolo: again, like the [00:32:00] elixir manifestation here is just a derivative. Is it a modelswyx: chosen? Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. Yeah. And it chose that because the process supervision and the gen servers are super amenable to the type of process orchestration that we're doing here.You are essentially spinning up little Damons for every task that is in execution and driving it to completion, which. Means the mall gets a ton of stuff for free by using Elixir and the Beam.swyx: I had to go do a crash course in Beam and Elixir, and I think most people are not operating at that scale of concurrency where you need that.But it is a good mental model for Resum ability and all those things. And these are things I care about. But tell me the story, the origin story of Symphony. What do you use it for? Is this, how did it form maybe any abandoned paths that you didn't take?[00:32:46] Terminal Free Orchestration[00:32:46] Symphony: Removing Humans from the LoopRyan Lopopolo: At the end of December we were at about three and a half PRS per engineer per day.This was before five two came out in the beginning of January. Everyone gets back from holiday with five two and no other work [00:33:00] on the repository. We were up in the five to 10 PRS per day per engineer. And I don't know about y'all, but like it's very taxing to constantly be switching like that. Like I was pretty tapped out at the end of the day, again, where are the humans spending their time? They're spending their time context switching between all these active tmox pains to drive the agent forward.swyx: Yeah. No way. Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: So let's again, build something to remove ourselves from the loop. And this is what frantic sprinted adapt here to find a way to remove the need for the human to sit in front of their terminal.So a lot of experimentation with Devrel boxes and, automatically spinning up agents, like it seems like a fantastic end state here, where my life is beach. I open live twice a day and say yes no to these things. Yeah. And this is again, a super, super interesting framing for how the work is done.Because I become more latency and sensitive. I have [00:34:00] way less attachment to the code as it is written. Like I've had close to zero investment in the actual authorship experience. So if it's garbage. I can just throw it away and not care too much about it. In Symphony, there's this like rework state where once the PR is proposed and it's escalated to the human for review, it should be a cheap review.It is either mergeable or it is not. And if it's not, you move it to rework. The elixir service will completely trash the entire work tree NPR and start it again from scratch. Okay. And this is that opportunity again to say, why was it trash right? What did the agent do that wasswyx: bad. Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Fix that before moving the ticket toswyx: endRyan Lopopolo: of progress again.swyx: Yeah. Why is this not in codex app? I guess this, you guys are ahead of Codex app,Ryan Lopopolo: yeah, so the way the team has been working is basically to be as AI pilled as possible and spread ahead. And a lot of the things we have worked on have fallen out [00:35:00] into a lot of the products that we have.Like we were in deep consultation with the Codex team to. Have the Codex app be a thing that exists, right? To have skills be a thing that Codex is able to use. So we didn't have to roll our own to put automations into the product. So all of our automatic refactoring agents didn't have to be these hand rolled control loops.It has been really fantastic to be, in a way, un anchored to the product development of Frontier and Codex and just very quickly try to figure out what works and then later find the scalable thing that can be deployed widely. It's been a very fun way to operate. It's certainly chaotic. I have lost track very often of what the actual state of the code looks like.‘cause I'm not in the loop. There was. One point where we had wired playwright directly up to the Electron app. With MCPM CCPs, I'm pretty bearish on because the harness forcibly injects all those tokens in the [00:36:00] context, and I don't really get a say over it. They mess with auto compaction. The agent can forget how to use the tool.There's probably only what three calls in playwright that I actually ever want to use. So I pay the cost for a ton of things. Somebody vibed a local Damon that boots playwright and exposes a tiny little shim CLI to drive it. And I had zero idea that this had occurred because to me, I run Codex and it's able to, it's oh, it's better.Yeah. Like no knowledge of this at all. Uhhuh.[00:36:30] Multi Human ChaosRyan Lopopolo: So we have had like in human space to spend a lot of time doing synchronous knowledge sharing. We have a daily standup that's 45 minutes long because we almost have to. Fan out the understanding of the current state.swyx: Yeah, I was gonna say this is good for a single human multi-agent, but multi human, multi-agent is a whole like po like explosion of stuff.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. And that this is fundamentally why we have such a rigid, like 10,000 [00:37:00] engineer level architecture in the app because we have to find ways to carve up the space so people are not trampling on each other.swyx: Sorry, I don't get the 10,000 thing. Did I miss that?Ryan Lopopolo: The structure of the repository is like 500 NPM packages.It's like architecture to the excess for what you would consider, I think normal for a seven person team. But if every person is actually like 10 to 50. Then the like numbers on being super, super deep into decomposition and sharding and like proper interface boundaries make a lot more sense.swyx: Yeah. To me, that's why I talked about Microfund ends and I, an anex is from that world, but Cool. It is just coming back to, to, to this I dunno if you have other, thoughts on. Orchestrating so much work coin going through this. Is this enough? Is this like any aha moments?Vibhu: It'll be interesting to see like where, okay, so right now you pick linear as your issue tracker, right?swyx: Or it's like a is it actually linear? This is actually linear.[00:37:55] Linear vs Slack WorkflowVibhu: Oh, that's linear. It's linear.swyx: Oh I never looked atVibhu: video. The demo video I had to download to [00:38:00] run.swyx: So I, because I'm a Slack maxie, but Yeah, linear. Linear is also really good. Yes,Ryan Lopopolo: we do make a good use of Slack. We we fire off codex to do all these lotion, elasticity, fix ups, the things that like sync that knowledge into the repository.It's super cheap. Yeah.swyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Just do it in Codex.swyx: My biggest plug is OpenAI needs to build Slack. You need to own Slack. Build yours. Turn this into Slack.Ryan Lopopolo: I did read about it. Youswyx: did?Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah.[00:38:25] Collaboration Tools for AgentsRyan Lopopolo: I would say that if we think that we want these agents to do economically valuable work, which is like this is the mission, right?We want AI to be deployed widely, to do economically valuable work, then we need to find ways for them to naturally collaborate with humans, which means collaboration tooling, I think, is an interesting space to explore.swyx: Yeah, totally. Yeah. GitHub, slack, linear.Vibhu: Yeah, that was my thing. Okay, where do we see right now Codex has started Codex Model, then CLI, now there's an app, app can let me shoot off multiple Codex is in parallel, but there's no great team collaboration for Codex.And it [00:39:00] seems like your team had some say into what comes out, right? So you talked to ‘em, codex kind of was a thing. From there, if you guys are on the bound, what stuff that like, you might not focus on, but what do you expect other people to be building, right? So people that are like five x 50 Xing.Should you build stuff that's like very niche for your workflow, for your team? Should it be more general so other people can adopt? Is there a niche there? ‘Cause part of it is just okay, is everything just internal tooling? Do we have everything our own way? Like the way our team operates has our own ways that we like to communicate or is there a broader way to do it?Is it something like a issue tracker? Just thoughts if you wanna riff on that.[00:39:35] Standardizing Skills and CodeRyan Lopopolo: I think TBD we have not figured this out in a general way. I do think that there is leverage to be had in making the code and the processes as much the same as possible. If you think that code is context, code is prompts, it's better from the agent behavior perspective to be able to look in a package in directory X, Y, Z, and it not to have to page so [00:40:00] deeply into directory if you C, because they have the same structure, use the same language, they have the same patterns internally.And that same like leverage comes from aligning on a single set of skills that you're pouring every engineer's taste into to make sure that the agent is effective. So like in our code base, we have, I think, six skills. That's it. And if some part of the software development loop is not being covered, our first attempt is to encode it in one of the existing setup skills, which means that we can change the agent behavior.Yeah. More cheaply than changing the human driver behavior.swyx: Yeah.[00:40:39] Self Improvement via Logsswyx: Have you ever, have you experimented with agents changing their own behavior?Ryan Lopopolo: We do.swyx: Yeah. Or parent agent changing a subagents, behavior or something like that.Ryan Lopopolo: We have some bits for skill distillation. So for example, there's one neat thing you can do with Codex, which is just point it at its own session logs to ask it to tell you how you can use [00:41:00] the tool pedal better.swyx: It's like introspectionRyan Lopopolo: or ask it to do things. I useVibhu: this session better. What skills should Iswyx: high? I like the modification of, you can do, just do things to you can just ask agent to do things.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. You can just codex things. This is like a, this is like a silly emoji that we have, right? You can just codex things, you can just prompt things.It's really glorious future we live in, but okay, you can do that one-on-one. But we're actually slurping these up for the entire team into blob storage and. Running agent loops over them every day to figure out where as a team can we do better and how do we reflect that back into the repositories?Yes, though everybody benefits from everybody else's behavior for free. Same for like PR comments, right? These are all feedback. That means the code as written, deviated from what was good, a PR comment, a failed build. These are all signals that mean at some point the agent was missing context. We gotta figure out how toswyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Slurp it up and put it back in the reboot.swyx: By the way, I do this exactly right. I used to, when I use cloud code for [00:42:00] knowledge work, cloud cowork is like a nice product, right? Yes. In I think you would agree. I always have it tell me what do I do better next time? And that's the meta programming reflection thing.So I almost think like you have six reflection extraction levels in symphony and almost like the zero of layer. So the six levels are PO policy, configuration, coordination, execution, integration, observability. We've talked about a couple of these, but the zero layer is like the, okay, are we working well?Can we improve how we work? Yes. Can I modify my own workflow without MD or something? I don't know.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course you can. Like this thing is also able to cut its own tickets ‘cause we give it full access.Yeah. Make it a ticket to have it cut. Tickets you can.Put in the ticket that you expect it to file as on follow up work,swyx: like Yeah. Self-modifying. Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah.[00:42:44] Tool Access and CLI FirstRyan Lopopolo: Put, don't put the agent in a box. Give the agent full accessibility over it. Domain.swyx: I had a mental reaction when you said don't put the agent in a box. So I think you should put it in a box. Like it's just that you're giving the box everything it needs.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. Context and tools.swyx: But we're like, as developers, we're used to calling [00:43:00] out to different systems, but here you use the open source things like the Prometheus, whatever, and you run it locally so that you can have the full loop. I assume.Ryan Lopopolo: Yep.Vibhu: I think likeRyan Lopopolo: another, you wanna minimize cloud, cloud dependencies.Vibhu: You also want to make sure that you think about what the agent has access to. What does it see? Does it go back into the loop, like from the most basic sense of you let it see its own like calls, traces it can determine where it went wrong. But are you feeding that back in? So you know, just the most basic level of you wanna see exactly what's input output, like does the agent have access to.What is being outputted, right? It can self-improve a lot of these things. It's allRyan Lopopolo: text, right? My job is to figure out ways to funnel text from one agent to the other.swyx: It's so strange like way back at the start of this whole AI wave Andre was like, English is the hottest day programming language.It's here, it's just Yeah. The feature as well.Vibhu: A lot of, okay. Like a lot of software, a lot of stuff. There's a gui, it's made for the human. We're seeing the evolution of CLI for everything, right? All tools have CLIs. Your agents can use [00:44:00] them well, do we get good vision? Do we get good little sandboxes?Like right now? It's a really effective way, right? Models love to use tools. They love the best. They love to read through text. So slap a CLI let it go loose. That works for everything.Ryan Lopopolo: It does. Yeah. Yeah.[00:44:14] UI Perception and RasterizingRyan Lopopolo: We've also been adapting nont, textual things to that shape in order to improve model behavior in some ways, right?We want the agent to be able to see the UI agents do not perceive visually in the same way that we do. They don't see a red box, they see red box button, right? They see these things in latent space. So if we want, Hey, yeah, I do. We haveswyx: a ding if that goes off every time. Alien spaceRyan Lopopolo: ding.Anyway if we wanna actually make it see the layout, it's almost easier to rasterize that image to ask EOR and feed it in to the agent. Ha. And there's no reason you can't do both, right? To like further refine how the model perceives the object it's [00:45:00] manipulating.swyx: Cool. Could we, you wanna talk about a couple more of these layers that might bear more introspection or that you have personal passion for?[00:45:07] Coordination Layer with ElixirRyan Lopopolo: I will say that the coordination layer here was a really tricky piece to get right.swyx: Let's do it. Yep. I'm all about that. And this is Temporal core.Ryan Lopopolo: This is where when we turn the spec into Elixir, where like the model takes a shortcut, right? Like it's oh, I have all these primitives that I can make use of in this lovely runtime that has native process supervision.Which is I think, a neat way to have taken the spec and made it more choices achievable by making choices that naturally mapswyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: To the domain, right? In the same way that like you would prefer to have a TypeScript model repo if you are doing full stack web development, right? Because the ability to share types across the front end and backend reduces a lot of complexity.And becauseswyx: that's what graph kill used to be.Ryan Lopopolo: That's right. Andswyx: I don't know if it's still alive, butRyan Lopopolo: [00:46:00] no humans in the loop here. So like my own personal ability to write or not write elixir. Doesn't really have to bias us away from using the right tool for the job. It is just wild.swyx: Love it. I love it.Yeah. I wonder if any languages struggle more than others because of this? I feel like everyone has their own abstractions. That would make sense. But maybe it might be slower, it might be more faulty where like you'd have to just kick the server every now and then. I, I don't know. I think observability layer is really well understood.Integration layer, CP is dead. I think all these just like a really interesting hierarchy to travel up and down. It's common language for people working on the system to understandRyan Lopopolo: The policy stuff is really cool, right? Yeah. You don't really have to build a bunch of code to make sure the system wait for the, to passswyx: it's institutional knowledge.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. You just give it the G-H-C-L-I with some text that say CI has to pass. It makes the maintenance of these systems a lot easier.[00:46:57] Agent Friendly CLI Outputswyx: Do you think that CLI maintainers need to be [00:47:00] do anything special for agents or just as is? It's good because like I don't think when people made the G GitHub, CLI, they anticipated this happening.Ryan Lopopolo: That's correct. The GH CLI is fantastic. It's great super industry.swyx: Everyone go try GH repo create GH pull and then pull request number, right? GH HPR, like 1 53, whatever. And then it like pullsRyan Lopopolo: basically my only interaction with the GitHub web UI at this point is GH PR view dash web.Exactly. Glanceswyx: at the diffRyan Lopopolo: and be like Sure thing. Send it. Yeah. But the CLI are nice ‘cause they're super token efficient and they can be made more token efficient really easily. Like I'm sure you all have seen like I go to build Kite or Jenkins and I could just get this massive wall of build output.And in order to unblock the humans, your developer productivity team is almost certainly gonna write some code that parses the actual exception out of the build logs and sticks it in a sticky note at the top of the page. And you basically [00:48:00] want CLI to be structured in a similar way, right? You're gonna want to patch dash silent to prettier because the agent doesn't care that every file was already formatted.Just wants to know it's either formatted or not. So it can then go run a right command. Similarly, like in our PNPM distributed script runner, when we had one, when you do dash recursive, like it produces a absolute mountain of text. But all of that is for passing. Test suites. So we ended up wrapping all of this in another scriptswyx: to suppress the,Ryan Lopopolo: which you can vibe the channel only output the failing parts of the tests.swyx: You make a pipe errors versus the standard, standard out. I don't know. Okay. Whatever. Too much thinking have to do that. The CII used to maintain SCLI for my company and yeah, this is like core, very core to my heart. But you're vibing my job.Ryan Lopopolo: That's right.swyx: Cool. Any other things?This is a long spec. [00:49:00] I appreciate that. It's got a lot of strong opinions in here. Any other things that we should highlight? I think obviously you can spend the whole day going through some of these, but I do think that some of these have a lot of care or some of this you might wanna tell people, Hey, take this, but, make it your own.[00:49:15] Blueprint Spec and GuardrailsRyan Lopopolo: Fundamentally, software is made more flexible when it's able to adapt to the environment in which it is deployed, which means that things like linear or GitHub even are specified within the spec, but not required pieces of it. There's like a more platonic ideal of the thing that you could swap in like Jira or Bitbucket, for example.But being able to tightly specify things like the ID formats or how the Ralph Loop works for the individual agents. Basically means you can get up and running with a fully specified system quickly that you then evolve later on. I think we never intended for this to be a static spec that you can [00:50:00] never change.It's more like a blueprint to get something worth a starting point up and running.swyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: For you then to vibe later to your heart's content,swyx: you have like code and scripts in here where it's oh, I think this is a really good prompt. It's just a very long prompt.Ryan Lopopolo: Fundamentally, the agents are good at following instructions, so give them instructions.And it will, improve the reliability of the result. We, much like the way we use Symphony, we don't want folks to have to monitor the agent as it is vibing the system into existence. So being very opinionatedVery strict around what these success criteria are means that our deployment success rate goes up. Yeah. It means we don't have to get tickets on this thing.Vibhu: Think it all goes back to that like code to disposable, right? Like early on when you had CLI or you'd kick off a Codex run, it would take two hours. You would wanna monitor okay, I'm in the workflow of just using one.I don't want it to go down the wrong path. I'll cut it off and, just shoot off four, like that was my favorite thing of the Codex app, right? Yeah. Just Forex it like, [00:51:00] it's okay. One of them will probably be right, one of them might be better. Stop overthinking it. Like my first example was probably like deep research.When you put out deep research and I'd ask it something like, I asked it something about LLM, it thought it was legal something and spent an hour, came back with a report completely off the rails. And I was like, okay, I gotta monitor this thing a bit. No don't monitor it. Just you want to build it so it's that it, it goes the right way.And you don't wanna, you don't wanna sit there and babysit, right? You don't want to babysit your agentsRyan Lopopolo: with that deep research query that you made. Looking at the bad result, you probably figured out you needed to tweak your prompt Yeah. A bit, right? That's that guardrail that you fed back into the code base for the task, your prompt to further align the agent's execution.Same sort of concept supply there too.swyx: When you talk, how are the customers feelingRyan Lopopolo: for Symphony? I think we have none, right? This is a thing we have put out into theswyx: world. Symphony's internal, right? As long as you are happy, you are the customer. That'

Fully & Completely: redux - We Are the SameThe Hip's most divisive record. The one that feels beige on first listen and breaks your heart on the fifth. jD and Greg LeGros go track by track through "We Are the Same" - and they don't hold back.jD and Greg LeGros return for the 17th anniversary episode of the "We Are the Same" deep dive. The album nobody fully agreed on when it dropped in 2009, and the one that keeps climbing anyway. The production is neutered, Bob Rock wanted to sell records out of Starbucks, and yet - 'Depression Suite' is sitting right there in the middle of it, ten minutes long, and it is a monster.They go track by track. 'Morning Moon.' 'Honey Please.' 'The Last Recluse.' 'Coffee Girl' (controversial, stay with them). 'Now the Struggle Has a Name' - which turns out to be about something much bigger than the melody suggests. And 'The Depression Suite,' which gets called hookless by critics in 2009 and is, in fact, enormously hooky.Greg lands on 'The Last Recluse' as his takeaway song. jD goes with 'Depression Suite' but admits he's going to listen to 'The Struggle Has a Name' twice on the drive home with a different set of ears. There's a Sobeys story. There's a Gandharvas rabbit hole. There's a Honey Watson correction that opens the whole album up.This is Fully & Completely: Redux. It's the same DNA as the original run. Not a sequel - a reunion. Start at the start.What We Get Into'Morning Moon' - The most complete recording on the album. Neil Young-adjacent, not in a bad way. Should have been the first single. Greg connects it to listening out a charter bus window watching Ontario roll by, and it clicks. The plume of smoke across the lake from Bath studio. Labour Day. Makes sense.'Honey Please' - The Springsteen opening that the production keeps from becoming what it should be. Mission statement buried in the first verse: I don't want to look for words, I don't want to work that hard. jD reads it as Gord's note to himself - and maybe Bob Rock's - for this entire record.'The Last Recluse' - Tragically Hip at their most Radiohead-adjacent, which is not a sentence you write about many Hip songs. A Springsteen-y tragic love story. The Radiohead gang vocal at the end earns its place. Who is the last recluse? Greg has a read. It lands.'Coffee Girl' - The most contentious track. Greg calls it the basement for this band. jD goes to bat for it from the barista's point of view - working the early shift, knowing her name, getting off the bus stop north just to walk past. He doesn't fully win the argument. But he makes a run at it.'Now the Struggle Has a Name' - This is where the episode opens up. Residential schools. Reconciliation. The first time Gord openly dedicates a full song to something this specific and this political. The applause can begin for the apology. That is a stinging line. And Honey Watson, it turns out, is Connie Watson - he misheard the name on the news, wrote it down, realized the mistake, and kept it anyway. Of course he did.'The Depression Suite' - Nearly ten minutes. Three movements. Called hookless by people who weren't listening. Are you going through something? Because I am too is one of the great hooks in this catalogue - F sharp minor, Greg can't stretch his hand to play it, it still lands. 2009 was early to be this direct about mental health. The Hip were early, as usual.'The Exact Feeling,' 'Queen of the Furrows,' 'Speed River,' 'Frozen in My Tracks,' 'Love Is a First,' 'Country Day'- The back half of the record gets a harder look. Some of it holds up better than they expected. Some of it still suffers from production that cuts the band off at the knees right when they should be rocking. 'Skeleton Park' - the bonus track, Apple Music Extra only, not on every format - is brought up as the song that should have been the closer. Never heard it? Go find it.The VerdictGreg's takeaway song: 'The Last Recluse' jD's takeaway song: 'The Depression Suite' The song to play someone to introduce them to this album: 'Morning Moon' - impossible not to like Does anything crack jD's personal top 25 Hip songs? No. He says so plainly. Is it still a good album? Yeah. It is. Greg likes 65% of it. He says so plainly too.Coming UpNext time out - a Hipstories episode with a very interesting guest. A Gord solo episode follows that. They'll get it to you as they get it to you. Life happens.Resources & References"We Are the Same" - The Tragically Hip, 2009. Produced by Bob Rock. Recorded at Bath Studios (Ontario) and Hana, Hawaii.'Depression Suite' - Track six on "We Are the Same." Nearly ten minutes. Three movements. The centrepiece.'Now the Struggle Has a Name' - References residential schools and Canadian reconciliation. Among Gord Downie's earliest and most direct political statements on record.The Downie Wenjack Fund - Gord's commitment to reconciliation didn't stop with this song. It became the foundation for everything that followed, including "Secret Path." Learn more at downiewenjack.ca"The Ecstasy of Rita Joe" - Play by George Ryga, referenced in the Athabasca section of 'Depression Suite.' If you know the connection, tell them.The Gandharvas - Canadian band, not on Spotify in original form. Go find Kicking in the Water on YouTube. Start with 'The First Day of Spring.' You're welcome.Hipbase - Primary source for setlists, catalogue data, and discography information used throughout. hipbase.comThis Is Our Life - Michael Barclay's biography of The Tragically Hip. The definitive source.Support the CauseThe TTH Podcast Series has raised over $35,000 for causes including the Downie Wenjack Fund, The Gord Downie Fund for Brain Cancer Research, and CAMH. If this community has given you something, give something back.Learn more and giveStay ConnectedCommunity: community.tthpods.com Subscribe to Yer Letter: subscribe.tthpods.com Instagram: @tthpods YouTube:youtube.com/@tthpods Email: tthpodcastseries@gmail.comTranscript available above. If you have information about the Athabasca / George Ryga connection in 'Depression Suite' - seriously, tell them. The forum is open.#TheTragicallyHip #FullyCompletely #WeAreTheSame #GordDownie #CanadianRock #TragicallyHipPodcastAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Friday, April 3, 2026 - Week 14   Just back from the DSC-III Kickoff Meeting!  As announced back in September 2025.  Really strong group of clinicians.   https://dsc.rarediseasesnetwork.org/patient-advocacy-groups   More on DSC in #S10e184 https://curesyngap1.org/podcasts/syngap10/dsc-rdcrn-ncats-nih-press-aav-in-cell-srf-at-cb-scramble-for-syngap1-s10e184/   We will have sites at SYNGAP1 established doctors, Dr. Wiltrout at Boston Children's Hospital/Harvard, Dr. Holder at Baylor and our very own ProMMiS Doctors: Knowles at Stanford / Dr. Abbott at Colorado.  AND, excitingly, these two new locations: Rush University Medical Center (Rush) led by Dr. Dr. Liz Berry-Kravis. University of Alabama at Birmingham led by Dr. Martina Bebin.   Interestingly we are paired with PMS aka SHANK3 so the comparisons will naturally arise.  Both post-synaptic, they are a half step ahead of us.  (We will catch up!)  SHANK3 and SYNGAP1 have lots in commons: PSD, Synaptic Plasticity, mTOR.  Differences, we have more epilepsy, they have more Catatonia (see Table 2 in Trelles 2026 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/41895438/).    After that I met with Dr. Xin Tang from BCH who is working on some exciting potential therapies and then over to CAMP4, who is moving at light speed.   ILAE Rare Epilepsy Big Data Task Force for 4 years!  Makes me think about data…   Where does SYNGAP1 Data Live? Citizen.Health Retrospective ProMMiS Clinical Rare-X PRO Now the DSC will have both Combined Brain Registry and EEG Database. In Argentina SYNGAP1 Registry, potentially expanding to Chile and Colombia. In the EU there is PATRE part of EURAS. In the UK, it seems largely via NHS. In China, I don't know but this paper shows us someone has 99 people: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/41914539/ Where else?   SYNGAP1 is having a moment, we need project manager volunteers.   SPRINT FOR SYNGAP1, EVERYWHERE – 21 days - $132k! Get on the map!   https://curesyngap1.org/calendar/sprint4syngap-2026   INAUGURAL SF NIGHT OF IMPACT, CA – 55 days Join us this is our only Gala for 2026! cureSYNGAP1.org/SF26   5TH SCRAMBLE FOR SYNGAP, SC – 183 days  Classic case of a small event becoming an institution! cureSYNGAP1.org/Scramble26 PUBMED Pubmed 2026 is at 22.  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=syngap1&filter=years.2026-2026&sort=date   SOCIAL MATTERS 4,822 LinkedIn.  https://www.linkedin.com/company/curesyngap1 1.55k YouTube.  https://www.youtube.com/@CureSYNGAP1 11.1k Twitter https://twitter.com/cureSYNGAP1 45k Insta https://www.instagram.com/curesyngap1   $CAMP closed at $4.47 today.  https://www.google.com/finance/beta/quote/CAMP:NASDAQ   Like and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen.  https://curesyngap1.org/podcasts/syngap10 Episode 203 of #Syngap10 #CureSYNGAP1 #Podcast

Welcome to The Daily Wrap Up, an in-depth investigatory show dedicated to bringing you the most relevant independent news, as we see it, from the last 24 hours (3/26/26). As always, take the information discussed in the video below and research it for yourself, and come to your own conclusions. Anyone telling you what the truth is, or claiming they have the answer, is likely leading you astray, for one reason or another. Stay Vigilant. !function(r,u,m,b,l,e){r._Rumble=b,r[b]||(r[b]=function(){(r[b]._=r[b]._||[]).push(arguments);if(r[b]._.length==1){l=u.createElement(m),e=u.getElementsByTagName(m)[0],l.async=1,l.src="https://rumble.com/embedJS/u2q643"+(arguments[1].video?'.'+arguments[1].video:'')+"/?url="+encodeURIComponent(location.href)+"&args="+encodeURIComponent(JSON.stringify([].slice.apply(arguments))),e.parentNode.insertBefore(l,e)}})}(window, document, "script", "Rumble");   Rumble("play", {"video":"v75hm4a","div":"rumble_v75hm4a"}); Source Links (In Chronological Order):  (7) The Last American Vagabond on X: "@DBrozeLiveFree One of MANY obvious and well-documented cases of Americans being illegally detained or abused by ICE. https://t.co/hhurrVqnej" / X DHS Lies About Detaining/Deporting US Citizens & Trump Reportedly Readying To Attack Venezuela New Tab (7) The Last American Vagabond on X: "@DropSiteNews I am glad you guys are covering this, it needs more attention. Here is TLAV's coverage on this story from February: https://t.co/jVJjiONeZa" / X She uncovered a terrifying lab hidden in California, with alleged ties to China - Los Angeles Times Israeli Citizen Charged In The Las Vegas "Biolab" Case As Fort Detrick Investigates Sabotage (7) Las Vegas Locally

In this episode, host Josh interviews Tyler Jefcoat, founder of The Seller Roundtable, about financial strategies for Amazon and e-commerce sellers. Tyler explains key metrics like COGS, Amazon fees, and advertising costs, and shares actionable tips on optimizing profit margins, managing inventory, and preparing for business exits. He emphasizes the importance of accurate accounting, SKU-level analysis, and disciplined habits for long-term success. The discussion also covers useful tools and resources, including Merchant Spring and the book "Atomic Habits." Listeners gain practical advice to build more profitable and acquisition-ready e-commerce businesses.Chapters:Introduction to Tyler Jefcoat and Seller Accountant (00:00:00)Tyler's background, experience, and introduction to his work with e-commerce sellers.Key Financial Metrics for Amazon Sellers (00:00:38)Breakdown of revenue, cost of goods sold (COGS), Amazon fees, and advertising expenses.Profit Margins and Targets for Sellers (00:01:44)Discussion of ideal net profit margins, advertising spend, and benchmarks for healthy Amazon businesses.Net Profit Margin Benchmarks and Market Trends (00:03:59)Analysis of average net profit margins, market headwinds, and acquisition readiness.Preparing for Exit: Case Study and Best Practices (00:05:01)Advice and case study on preparing for business exit, including accounting and inventory management.Return on Capital and Product Portfolio Analysis (00:06:54)Explanation of return on capital, product-level profitability, and portfolio optimization.FBA Fees and SKU-Level Analysis (00:10:18)Importance of monitoring Amazon FBA fees, SKU-level analysis, and correcting fulfillment fee errors.Automating FBA Fee Audits (00:11:45)Discussion on automating FBA fee audits and best practices for large catalogs.Three Actionable Takeaways for Sellers (00:12:59)Summary of three key actions: solid accounting, SKU-level profitability, and price testing.Book Recommendation: Atomic Habits (00:15:40)Tyler recommends "Atomic Habits" by James Clear and discusses its impact.Favorite Software Tool: Merchant Spring (00:16:46)Recommendation and overview of Merchant Spring for multi-channel sales integration.Closing Remarks and Contact Info (00:17:28)Final thoughts, recommendation to contact Tyler, and episode wrap-up.Links and Mentions:Tools and Websites  "Merchant Spring": "00:16:46"Books  "Atomic Habits by James Clear": "00:15:49"Transcript:Josh 00:00:00  Today, I'm excited to introduce you to Tyler Jefcoat. Tyler is the founder and CEO of Stellar Accountant, where he exercises his passion for helping sellers maximize their businesses. Tyler provides financial coaching for sellers totaling more than 100 million per year in e-commerce sales. Tyler also leads the Sellers Roundtable, an exclusive mastermind group for seven and eight figure sellers. Before founding Seller Accountant, Tyler was the co-founder and managing partner for Care to Continue, a home health care company that grew from 0 to 100 employees in four years. So, Tyler, welcome to the show.Tyler 00:00:36  All right, Josh, thanks for having me.Josh 00:00:38  So you have your top line revenue. The next thing we have is you're going to have your cost of goods sold, right? So with your cost of goods sold, you said the average is about 30 to 35% is what you're seeing right now.Tyler 00:00:52  And this kind of landed cost. So if you kind of think about what it costs you to satisfy your Chinese Po and then do the duties freight into the states, I think.Tyler 00:01:01  Across the board, we're seeing literally pretty close to a third 33, 34%.Josh 00:01:05  So if you're below 30% or so, that's a good indication then. Right. Okay. Looking good. All right then next you have your Amazon fees that are going to come up. Right. And I think I'm going to split these up with the advertising separate. So what is your Amazon fees that your 15% commission plus the pick and pack. All that goes into the Amazon ecosystem. You're saying 30 to 35% is what you're seeing there. Is that right?Tyler 00:01:34  To keep the numbers easy is probably another third. So you got about a third in your unit cost to Google. You got about a third and normal Amazon fees.Josh 00:01:44  okay. Cool. And then so all right. So at this point we have 66% right of our revenue going to Cogs in Amazon. And so what you're saying is that the last remaining portion for that POG number that you were talking about is your advertising expense specifically on Amazon. So with your advertising expense, you said ideally you want to be between that 20% to 25%, you know, net gross margin, including the advertising costs in there.Josh 00:02:16  So that means you're going to be needing to sit around somewhere between 15 to 20%. Correct.Tyler 00:02:22  So if we if you think about it, we've got it split into thirds, a third in cogs, a third name is on fee. So we've got 33 points left. I can spend between, you know, roughly 10% on tacos in that model. Let's assume that your cost of goods sold model. Then I'm really going to. So so right. Take another 10% away for ads. That leaves me with a 23% P&G or post advertising gross profit. And I would say that's a really good target. Like, again, I would rather aim for 25 and hit 23 than really flirt with 20 constantly. But yes. So that would be that would be a fairly prototypical private label or kind of brand building seller on Amazon is third, Amazon fees. Third product cogs are about a dime, about ten points going to tacos. And then I've got 22, 23, 24% after ads that I can put towards my overhead.Tyler 00:03:08  And mama wants a boat, you know, whatever it is, that's the money I want.Josh 00:03:12  Makes sense. Makes sense. So with that, and then the other thing you mentioned is, hey, if you have really good cost of goods sold, right, you know, you might be 10 to 20%, right? Well, then you could ramp up your advertising spend. Right. So you can kind of offset those things, but the more profitable you are, the better. Like you said, some people were 30 to 35% that were really getting some premiums, with all the acquisitions that were going on. So this is awesome. This gives us a lot to think about and great targets to shoot towards, especially like net profit margin. You said, you know, ten is kind of the average. You said, right. 15 means that you're really good. You know looking good. You're a good candidate to be acquired. Is that correct?Tyler 00:03:59  Yes. And honestly, coming out of like 2022, I would actually say that, you know, 10% was actually probably pretty good because we did see a lot of headwinds.Tyler 00:04:09  So give your give yourself some grace. Like if you're looking at your piano right now, you know, here in the middle of 2020 and you're like, well, boy, I got 5% last year, I must be dead. That actually might be more normal than you think it is. But don't don't think that that's going to be normal forever. I think we are we're, we're we're continuing to want to see the market get better and we want to we work too hard and we risk too much to take a 2% profit margin for too long. And so getting a 10% is really crucial. And then I think if you're going to exit, getting it closer to that 15% net profit. Yeah.Josh 00:04:38  Awesome, awesome super valuable content. Tyler thanks again. All right. So with that, let's talk about maybe some of the levers that people can be pulling, you know, as they prepar...

We are totally confused about the law and how to adjudicate a case. No advocacy is allowed. Butthat is all this is today. Makes you fuzzy on what the laws really are and how the justice system should work. On purpose or by accident. You judge. 

Shaun and Justin are back recapping some more moves the Giants made during free agency including former Browns and Jaguars CB Greg Newsome, former Ravens FB Patrick Ricard and bringing back LB Micah McFadden. They'll break that down along with the expectation that the team may not make any other significant moves. 00:00 Giants Sign Greg Newsome, Patrick Ricard & Micah McFadden  02:50 Greg Newsome signed after Flott goes to Titans 7:45 Makes plays on the football but has bad penalties 13:10 Struggled in the slot 18:30 Is Newsome a long term solution at DB 22:40 Can Adebo's play compliment Newsome 24:50 Ricard becomes highest paid FB in NFL 27:50 Getting Ricard involved in the offense 33:50 The OFF formation with Ricard 37:30 Micah Mcfadden back on a prove it deal 38:45 FA LBs market was lower than expected 40:55 strengths and weaknesses  42:25 Giants Sign Kicker Jason Sanders  46:00 Are the Giants done in Free Agency 51:00 Giants need to take advantage of a qb on a rookie deal 54:50 Work to be done still before the draft 57:00 Steve Tisch looking to transfer Giants stake Check out our Merch: https://shop.jomboymedia.com/collections/talkin-giants Subscribe to JM Football for our NFL coverage: https://www.youtube.com/@JMFootball Follow all of our content on https://jomboymedia.com #giants #nygiants Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.