Board Level

  This episode, Catherine interviews Nicki Kenyon, Director of Powered Enterprise, Nine, who has worked in leadership positions across the travel, finance and tech industries in Australia and internationally. Catherine also interviews Alex Sloane, the Director of Customer Marketing at Facebook.    Valuable Discussion Points   [00:49] Did Nicki sit down and plan her career?  Nicki’s career has evolved out of her own personal development, and her career, as a result, represents a combination of different cities, companies and people she has worked in and with. Her always-on approach to learning has seen Nicki move from industry to industry in an attempt to better understand that particular area. She makes informed decisions that have taken her outside of her comfort zone which has been rewarding and challenging.    [03:49] How would Nicki describe her leadership style?   Nicki resonates with the idea of being a democratic leader and would describe her leadership style as inclusive and respectful. Whilst she draws on her own experience, expertise and perspective, she believes a critical leadership skill is embracing and the contribution of all people and really listening to the ideas they may have.     [08:41] What sparked Nicki’s decision to join her first board?  As an executive at an online travel company, Nicki found herself in the boardroom with a diverse group of directors who weren't necessarily involved in the day to day running of the business like she was herself.  However, they were just as passionate and committed to the success of the business and therefore they were able to add perspective to the job she was doing. Being part of this experience inspired Nicki towards a board approach with her career allowing her to leverage her skills in different ways.     [12:31] What is the one thing Nicki wished she had known when she set out on her board careers?  For Nicki, the accountability and the responsibility of a board directorship is not something to be taken lightly and she thinks any prospective board member should consider that carefully and not be distracted or flattered by an opportunity that presents itself. Another is the importance of fully understanding board dynamics, learning where you fit in amongst it and appreciating the value each member has.     [14:57] What sort of manager and leader is Alex? How would she describe herself?   Alex believes her role as a manager and as a leader is to create an environment for others to succeed. Her goal is to ensure that everyone has the best experience of their career when they're working alongside her, and to provide opportunities for people to thrive,  learn,  grow and succeed.    [17:09] What Alex thought of taking the AICD course versus an MBA?   Whilst Alex was considering undertaking her MBA, she was encouraged to take the AICD course instead as the modules within this course aligned more closely with her career experience. One of her favourite modules was the finance module which was a surprise to Alex, who is much more of a strategic, creative person by nature, however this module exposed her to new ideas and concepts that she found incredibly enriching.     [18:08] What is the importance of sense and clarity of purpose for Alex?  Alex strongly believes that aligning personal values to the values of the company you’re working for or with is incredibly important and leading with a clear sense of why you are there is critical.    [21:29] What is the one thing Alex wished she had known when she set out on her board careers?  Like Nicki, Alex agrees that responsibility and legal accountability are extremely important to understand. Being part of any board, you are surrounded by a group of very diverse thinkers and it can be difficult to navigate sometimes. Diplomacy can only bring you so far but knowing the board’s varying tenures, different backgrounds and accomplishments can alleviate this. Additionally, Alex found the  AICD course extremely helpful in preparing her for this.    [26:42] What kind of boost to confidence did the course give Alex and Nicki?  For Alex, taking the knowledge and experience of the AICD course back to her current role gave her an increased understanding that ultimately benefited her customers. She had a better understanding of what the boardroom conversation was like, particularly around marketing, investment and all the different factors that go into it.  For Nicki, it confirmed to her that she made the right decision. The course was very serious and practical, the relationships she was able to build with her cohorts were very valuable. Passing the exams gave Nicki a huge confidence boost and made her feel that she came out of the course more rounded and committed to embarking on her board career.       Key Learnings   Opening yourself to new learnings can guide you towards new companies, organisations and industries.   Mentors are important, they can energise you, allow you bounce ideas off them and sense check yourself through another person’s perspective.   Moving from an executive to a board position has less to do about age or stage of career but more about skills. People work through their careers at different paces, people have different jobs and these create a different number of experiences.   A network is important, people from all over the country and from such diverse fields, can be incredibly enriching.     Quotable Quotes   “My career opportunities have often come about because of that always on learning trait I have, curiosity, if you like.” – Nicki Kenyon  “I think the single most powerful outcome or outtake from that experience would be a genuine embracing of diversity of thinking.” – Nicki Kenyon  “If a company or a CEO doesn't have a clear sense of purpose, it's harder for me and everybody else in that organisation to support the organisation's goal.” – Nicki Kenyon  “I don't believe there's an age or stage that necessarily is the trigger for it being the right time for a board, because, again, there are as many different boards as there are people in their experiences.” – Nicki Kenyon  “I think being in a company where my values feel aligned to the company's values has always been important and leading with a clear sense of why you're here is critical.” – Alex Sloane   “I love that phrase, her success is not your failure and I think that's so important. There's plenty of glory and success and opportunity around for everybody so keeping that in mind as you help people but you also ask for help as well.” – Alex Sloane     Important Resources and Links   If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/ If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.    Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.    If you’re interested in connecting with Nicki and Alex or viewing their professional portfolios and achievements, visit their LinkedIn:  Nicki - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicki-kenyon  Alex - https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexandra-sloane-gaicd-4720954   The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, and Iain Wilson.   

This episode, Catherine interviews Pip Marlow, the CEO of Salesforce ANZ & ASEAN, and previously the CEO of Customer Marketplace for Suncorp Group and Managing Director of Microsoft. Pip is also a non-executive director of Rugby Australia, sits on the Vice-Chancellor’s Advisory Board at UTS and is a member of the Chief Executive Women. Valuable Discussion Points [10:05] What is Pip’s criteria for selecting board roles? If Pip was asked to sit on a board in the banking and insurance industry before she joined Suncorp, she would have been hesitant as this is not somewhere she had previously pictured herself. If she had held that perspective, she would have missed out on one of the best development opportunities of her career. So for Pip, taking time to understand why you think you're not interested in something and testing your biases and your assumptions can actually open up an incredible opportunity for yourself and your career.   [14:13] What are Pip’s thoughts on board diversity? Pip is a big believer in board diversity; however, she wouldn’t let a lack of diversity on a board stop her from taking a certain role This is because it empowers you to get that first seat at the table, seek to understand why it hasn't occurred to date and look at what systems, symbols, and policy settings need to change to ensure that more diversity can flourish in the future.   [18:05] Is Pip a user of social media?  Does she think social media is useful to a board director? Pip believes social media is a powerful platform that has responsibilities for each user. There is a conversation going on there which people have a choice to participate in to use for good not everybody does that, but the conversation will occur either way.   [24:47] On the number of female CEOs in the ASX200 dropping down, what are Pip’s thoughts? Pip believes the rate of change has been glacial and as a result is truly deeply dissatisfied with progress. When she saw the latest stats with the ASX numbers decreasing, she saw that as a real sign of concern. Pip says that this is not a women’s issue, this is a gender equity issue and if we don't do something proactive to change that participation, then we'll accept where we are which is not good for our future generations.   [28:58] What is the one thing that Pip wish she’d known when she started out on her board career? The first thing Pip wishes she had known was not to let your fear hold you back. The second thing is to know the difference between management and board. What are your decision rights? Your role is to govern, to oversee and to set risk appetite and ultimately help to get that balance right.   Key Learnings You have to be organised and conscious on how you use your time and your trade-offs. Have a habit every month of tracking how you are spending your time; did you spend enough time for your family? For your customers? For your strategic thinking? When a board is reaching out to you, there is nothing wrong with doing due diligence. A little bit of discovery and exploration in those early conversations will go a long way and contribute to your decision-making process. If you opt not to join a board after a role is offered, the best gift that you can give is to promote other men and women. Shine a light on some of the talent that they may not see.   Quotable Quotes “Shareholders are not only one, your employees are stakeholders, your community is a stakeholder, your customers are stakeholders, and sometimes certain stakeholders have one object they care most about, maybe that's profit. You have to think beyond just one particular stakeholder and just the shareholders to the broader community that you serve and operate in.” – Pip Marlow “I try and say it's not about something being right for you. It's what's best for you right now because if only something one thing is right, everything else is wrong. When we put that pressure right and wrong in a decision like this, I think it can stop you taking a step forward because you're worried about it being the wrong thing.”– Pip Marlow “If it's not the right one for you, shine a light on some of the talent out there that may not be seen by other people because that's the gift you can give.” – Pip Marlow “When I feel like I'm a female raising this issue, people say are you self-serving? This isn't about self-serving. This is about everybody having equal access to jobs opportunities.” – Pip Marlow “You can't let your fear hold you back because that holds you back from contributing, holds you back from helping others. So don't listen to your fears, your imposters, your insecurities. You're sitting at that table because you earned it.”– Pip Marlow     Important Resources and Links If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/. If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. If you’re interested in connecting with Pip Marlow or viewing her professional portfolios and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/pipmarlow The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson

This episode, Catherine interviews Dr Marlene Kanga, a Non-executive Director of Sydney Water Corporation, Standards Australia, Air Services Australia, and Business Events Sydney. She is also President of the World Federation of Engineering Organisations.   Marlene is an Honorary Fellow of the Institution of Engineers Australia, the Institution of Chemical Engineers [UK], Fellow of the Academy of Technology Science and Engineering [Australia], the Australian Institute of Company Directors and a Foreign Fellow of the ASEAN Academy of Engineering and Technology.   She has been listed among the Top 100 Engineers in Australia and the Top 100 Women of Influence in Australia.       Valuable Discussion Points   [07:00] Women are often told that they can’t be what they can’t see but for Marlene, this does not seem to be the case, what drove her and why did she not feel those barriers?   Marlene had a clear sense of purpose and believes she is one of the very fortunate people that knew about engineering and the impact it can have. She wanted to make a difference. When female engineers are asked why they do engineering, most often that's what they say, to make a difference.      [09:46] What can Marlene say about people with STEM backgrounds who are not well represented  on many boards but whose skills are really needed?   Marlene believes the reason behind this lies in the whole process of board selection. It is a systemic issue that really needs to be addressed. When someone comes along and brings a different point of view, it can be a long process to build that trust and reliance because on a board, you're working collectively and if something goes wrong, you're all responsible.     [13:30] What are Marlene’s thoughts on the lack of women who are studying science and engineering?  Marlene’s theory is that the countries where engineering first became a formal profession at the start of the Industrial Revolution as a formal profession, in places such as the UK, Europe, the USA, Canada, South Africa, New Zealand, and Australia, there was a male dominated culture. So it started out as a culture that excluded women and that culture continued. It is very insidious but it is there and so there are less than 20% of women attending engineering schools in these countries with very low levels of participation and similar cultural issues.    [24:21] Who and what motivated Marlene?  Marlene’s motivation is really to be of service. She does not look at these roles for personal gain.  For her, the leadership is about outcomes and if someone is driven by purpose, they can have a good outcome and leave a great legacy but also importantly, inspire other leaders, and mentor and support them.     [25:31] Why is it important not only to have more engineers in this country but also to have them represented on all of the boards? Why at this particular time is that so important?  Marlene believes that Australia is now at a very critical inflexion. In a post COVID-19 world, there is an inflexion and acceleration into new technologies. Countries around the world have the fundamentals and are gearing up for that, not just in the United States, but also in India, China and many countries in Europe who are going to forge ahead. Australia has got to be innovation ready and Marlene does not think Australia is currently at that point. Australia is in danger of being left behind with dire consequences for economic growth and prosperity if these issues are not addressed.    [28:28] What is the one thing Marlene wished she had known when she started out?  Marlene is glad she did not know a lot when she first started, as she believes she may not have explored so many diverse areas. However, one thing she wishes she had known is to reach out and ask people for support. Marlene believes people are extraordinarily generous and those who actively seek support and guidance can benefit greatly from this.     Key Learnings   Diversity, not just being accepting of women but also of different cultures, is a continuum of an organisation’s culture of safety.   The board’s role is not to worry about the availability of women engineers or leaders who are qualified to fill the roles but to create a pipeline of organisational processes, systems and culture that is ready for them.       Quotable Quotes   “… engineering is all-pervasive. Yet as engineers, we don't talk about it. We don't sell it enough and we don't talk about how this can actually advance our economies as well, create jobs, create prosperity and create a better world. In fact, I say to young engineers, if you want to change the world, become an engineer, because that's one of the few careers that give you the skills to make that difference.” – Dr Marlene Kanga    “So by default, everyone is risk averse and everyone rather work with somebody they know and trust rather than take on somebody new because what's in it for them, they don't see the benefit or the value.” – Dr Marlene Kanga    “People confuse what engineers can do and actually, you know that part of that technical work is a very small part of engineering. There's a huge amount of conceptual thinking, critical thinking to be done to develop solutions where there are none.” – Dr Marlene Kanga    “It's not just policies and procedures but it's really transforming the culture and it's engaging the entire organisation into saying every member of our organisation is important and we value you, not in spite of the fact that you're different but because you are different, because you are different, you will bring something to the table that that we don't have, that we don't know and that's why we want you and that's why we need you. I think valuing everyone is very important.” – Dr Marlene Kanga    “I say to them as engineers, if you had apipeline and you were going to supply a township with 100,000 litres of water and there's avery leaky pipeline, what would you do? Would you pump a million litres an hour to get that volume or would you fix the pipeline? What's the sensible thing to do? So let's fix that pipeline, which is so full of holes.” – Dr Marlene Kanga    “Male engineering leaders say so what do women want? We've got all the policies and procedures and they're still leaving and they have a blind spot. They don't see it because, of course, they don't have women often at the table, at the management table to bring up certain issues.”– Dr Marlene Kanga   “So there are a huge number of reasons for greater diversity on boards, but especially, I think, in terms of science and engineering, because the future is all about technology and you simply can’t ignore that.”– Dr Marlene Kanga    Important Resources and Links   If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/ If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818 If you’re interested in connecting with Dr Marlene Kanga or viewing her professional portfolios and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/marlene-kanga-am-31107126   The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson.   

This episode, Catherine interviews Su McCluskey and Hannah Wandel.   Su is currently Commissioner of the National COVID-19 Advisory Board, the Australian Centre for International Agricultural Research, Director of the Australasian Pork Research Institute, the NSW Marketing Board and the Australian Unity Limited.   Hannah is the Acting Executive Director, Drought Policy and Programs of the National Drought and North Queensland Flood Response and Recovery Agency, CEO Advisory Panel Member of the Commonwealth Bank and Chair and CEO of Country to Canberra.    [00:49] How important was it for Su to have lived in a regional area in shaping her priorities and values?   For Su, living in a regional area has given her a different perspective. As she does a lot of work in the cities, she is very conscious of helping people understand that when it comes to regional areas, they are very diverse, and one size does not fit all in regard to solutions. The decisions made by board members affect those right across the country so it’s important to include the perspectives of people not just from cities but also from more regional areas.     [09:23] What is Su’s experience with the COVID Commission Advisory Board?   For Su, being a part of this particular board has been a unique and wonderful opportunity to be able to provide business insights and perspectives directly to the Prime Minister. She has worked in government and she knows that in government you've got a lot of people who can work on really good policy proposals but it's important to look at the practical side in terms of how things will work in practice. In times of crisis like we have now, you don't have the time to be able to put something in place and say, let's see how this goes. You have to have a greater level of confidence that what you’re putting in place is actually going to work, make a difference and address the challenges you're trying to fix.    [11:23] What is the one thing Su wished she had known when she started out?   For Su, it was hard to learn how to say no. She thinks this is a really important thing for people to think about when they're looking to take on board roles. Individuals need to ask themselves, are you going to be the right fit? Are you going to be able to constructively contribute? Will this just look good on your portfolio? Additionally, individuals need to probe the company about how the role aligns with their own values.     [13:59] What can Hannah tell us about the Country to Canberra programme?  Hannah truly believes that living in regional, rural and remote Australia is an asset and something that really should be celebrated. However she also noticed there were some additional challenges that kids growing up in the country were facing when it came to distance, time, funding barriers and inequality between the opportunities kids in the country could access compared to their city counterparts. When you compound this with gender issues, she decided she wanted to do something to empower young women from rural areas. Through the Country to Canberra programme, these young women are supported to achieve whatever it is they want to achieve.     [17:46] What Hannah had to address when she was a young woman on the board?  Hannah was really nervous sitting on my first board and she really didn't know what to expect. Fortunately, she had incredible training and undertook some courses but as time went on, she had some great mentors and people who really reinforced her skills and capabilities. It wasn't always easy though and there were times where her youth was seen as something that wasn't to be valued or she was seen as the token young person. She even got introduced once to a group of people as the young person, which she didn't appreciate because she felt she had a lot more to value. Her experience of being a young woman on a board has taught her the importance of having these voices heard.     [21:07] What is the one thing Hannah wished she had known when she started out?  The one thing Hannah really wishes she knew is not to be scared to be part of a board. There are various fiduciary duties and a lot of really important things that you need to know so it’s important to do your due diligence, but at the heart of it, it’s about having common sense. There is a huge level of important issues you've got to deal with it, but at the end of the day, it's about managing yourself well, showing leadership and ensuring the values of an organisation are upheld.     Key Learnings   Choosing a board role can be very difficult, you have to know not only when to say no but also how to say no. It is important to ask yourself if you are going to be a right fit.   Regional Australia is an asset but there are challenges for the regional youth in terms of distance, time, funding, opportunities and other inequalities.   Do not let yourself be pigeonholed, instead have a broad spectrum of knowledge and skills.  Boards need to have someone coming from the regional, rural or remote areas; they are an important part of these discussions.     Quotable Quotes   “…when it comes to the regions, they are very diverse. One size doesn't fit all when it comes to solutions – Su McCluskey    “... if you've got a board that agrees then you haven't got diversity because you actually want challenge and you want differences, view but that you have the ability to then be able to come to a decision that everyone's comfortable with.” – Su McCluskey    “Often the strain on women at that point of their life is really quite intense. You've got to look at parental duties, school duties, work duties and what I would also say is there are so many talented women in that demographic, whether it's their 20s or 30s.” – Hannah Wandel    “There were a couple of times where my youth was seen as something that wasn't to be valued or I was seen as the token young person. I even got introduced once where there was X person who was the legal specialist, another person who was the tax specialist. She is Hannah, she's the young person and I didn't appreciate that because I felt I had a lot more to value but that said, having young people's voices on boards is really important. You know at the moment, we're seeing a situation where young people's employment due to COVID, young people's futures are really, you know, it's a challenging time. It's important that we focus on young people, but also young people have incredible skills when it comes to social media, digital skills coding, a lot of things that we could really utilise on boards. So for me, I felt really eager to contribute. I felt like as time went on, I was offered more and more opportunities. I think sometimes it's just about getting a foot in the door, having a few people that believe in you and it and it continues from there” – Hannah Wandel    On public service, “when you really care about your community or, you know, the economy or social issues, it's a great way to give back but also make a living and be able to contribute.” – Hannah Wandel    Important Resources and Links   If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/.  If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.    Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.    If you’re interested in connecting with Su McCluskey and Hannah Wandel or viewing their professional portfolios and achievements, visit their LinkedIn via     https://www.linkedin.com/in/sumccluskey   https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannahwandel      The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson. 

This episode, Catherine interviews Dr Kirstin Ferguson. She is an award-winning leadership expert and shares how opportunities in board careers can drive change. She is the Deputy Chair of ABC, and a Director at SCA Property Group, EML and Hyne Timber.    Valuable Discussion Points   [03:37] What were the skills needed on Kirstin’s first board role?  For Kirstin, one thing that became clear to her is that on a board you are not the doer, but rather you are there to ask the strategic questions and look at things with the bigger picture in mind. Kirstin’s first board role allowed her to utilise her technical knowledge from having built her own business, however it took her a couple of years to hone the skill of applying that strategically. Whilst it was tempting for her to always look at  the detail, the role was about asking the right questions and finding the right ways to help guide executives.    [05:53] What Kirstin thinks about the advice of sticking to just one particular area?  Looking back Kirstin can see that her own career has not been a linear one however she enjoys doing different things make her a much more well-rounded director. For Kirstin every single experience she has allows her to bring mistakes and lessons and apply those learnings to what she is doing now.     [07:29] How important are mentors for Kirstin?  Having mentors, advisors and sponsors is incredibly important for Kirstin. She recommends that board members, regardless of experience  seek mentors out and value the time they give you. Mentors are really important because there is a lot of experience out there to draw from and it can enhance your own skills and understanding when sitting on a board.    [08:17] How does Kirstin select mentors?  It's not always as easy as simply picking someone and saying ‘I'm going to have you as my mentor’.  There needs to be a natural connection that you have with a potential mentor so it’s important to select people that you find easy to talk with and that seem to be willing to offer you advice.    [09:46] What can Kirstin say about her proficient use of social media?  Kirstin recalls having directors tell her to stay away from social media as she wouldn't be taken seriously because social media is not a place for directors to be. Whilst she is glad to be given that advice, she chose to find a way to use social media that is beneficial for her as director.  Social media is incredibly important to understand what's going on in the world around us. You hear views outside your bubble of people that you might sit in a boardroom with. You can hear about your industry or about the company. You also hear everyday perspectives that are important to forming a judgment and a view on certain topics, particularly social issues. These are all increasingly important for directors.    [16:32] What advice can Kirstin give to those considering moving into a board career?  Kirstin recommends having as many diverse boards as you can. Her current makeup of boards is two listed boards, two private companies and a government board and that works really well for her. Listed boards are wonderful companies but have a whole different set of pressures. Private companies are also good because there is generally a smaller distance between the board and the executive. Kirstin also likes to ensure she sits across at least one government board in order to give back and find ways to contribute to the community in society.     [28:27] What is the one thing Kirstin wishes she had known when she set out on her career?  She wished she had known there was no reason to rush, to trust herself and relax throughout her early board career. Once you do that you can enjoy what is to come and make choices that feel right for you personally and for your career.     Key Learnings   Every single experience you have, you can bring mistakes and learnings and lessons from those periods to what you are doing now.  The use of social media is important for directors. It offers a whole wealth of networks that a director can tap into to find strong contacts and advocates.  Do your due diligence when considering a board position. Looking over at financials, strategy or reading board papers can only get you so far. Much more important is understanding the chair, their decision-making processes, the makeup and the dynamics of the board.  Leadership is being authentic, empathetic, having EQ and technical expertise.     Quotable Quotes   “I'm really glad that my tool kit might look a bit like Mary Poppins because there is a whole bunch of weird stuff in that bag but all of it together combines to give me a really diverse range of experiences to draw on.” – Kirstin Ferguson  “I tend to think of all my mentors and advisors a bit like a buffet, go to them for different things but I'm very grateful for them and I highly recommend you really value and appreciate what they can provide.” – Kirstin Ferguson  “Every woman is a role model.” – Kirstin Ferguson  “Board meetings are your bread in a sandwich so they sort of frame what you're doing. There needs to be something in the middle as well and I'm someone who needs to be doing more..” – Kirstin Ferguson      Important Resources and Links   If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/.  If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.    Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.  If you’re interested in connecting with Kirstin or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirstinferguson   The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson.  Disclaimer: Guests featured in the podcast are speaking from their personal experiences only. As this advice has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situation or needs, you should, before acting on the advice, consider its appropriateness to your circumstances.

This episode, Catherine interviews Professor Megan Davis. She is the winner of the AFR Women of Influence Award; she is the UNSW Pro Vice-Chancellor Indigenous and a Professor of Law, UNSW Law. The UN Human Rights Council to UNEMRIP elected her in 2017. She shares her experience and thoughts on being an Aboriginal woman in the UN, the Australian Rugby League, ATSIC, and the Uluru Statement from the Heart. She emphasises the importance of standing up and unapologetically speaking out to get the job done.  Valuable Discussion Points  [10:59] What are Megan’s thoughts on having more Aboriginal women in boards?  Megan strongly encourages boards to think carefully about who they're talking to and who they're reaching out to when looking for new board appointees, to ensure a diverse range of talent around the table. She believes boards that put in the ground work to determine the purpose of the board, and appoint people based on the skills they could bring to those conversations will benefit the most. Those that don’t face the risk of missing out on huge amounts of talent and knowledge in the community.  [12:56] What are her experiences at the ARL Commission?  Megan has a passion for rugby league so being invited to be part of the top governing body in the country was a huge privilege and honour for her because she was able to contribute towards shaping the future of the game and all the many people that follow it. She strongly believes having a passion for the work you’re doing on a board is important because it requires a huge amount of time, effort and dedication.  [19:05] What Megan thinks about the Black Lives Matter impact in Australia?  Some of the matters that have arisen throughout the Black Lives Matter movement certainly resonate with the indigenous community. Black Lives Matter is something that traverses many topics from reparation, police brutality and the incarceration rate and Megan believes a systematic way to approach Black Lives Matters is for corporations to endorse Uluru. As an Australian Law reform proposal, it sets out structural ways to address these issues which can only be done through the Constitution.   [22:47] With her key role with the Uluru Statement of the Heart and all other work she has done, how does she deal and cope with media attention?  Whilst Megan acknowledges that media attention can be exhausting and can make other things complicated, it is important to maintain a media presence in order for this reform to happen. Fortunately for Megan, in terms of her work on the Australian Rugby League Commission, the support for Uluru came from our indigenous voices so the commission built into its system the voice of the NRL which represents all Aboriginal stakeholders. She did not have to be an activist in the boardroom; the NRL had already endorsed Uluru.   [24:36] What success and progress does Megan believe will be tangible in the next few years?  Megan believes success would come through a referendum sometime in the next term of government and if not, then a commitment to one in the following term. Once both sides of politics are talking in a positive way about it then it's just a matter of timing. She also believes having Aboriginal people on boards does make a huge difference to decision making and the way critical thinking is applied to particular decisions.   [28:05] What's the one thing Megan wishes she’d known before she started out on a board and forum career? Megan wishes she had not apologised so much which she does by virtue of habit, however she thinks It's really important to trust your own instincts and to back yourself. As women we can often be criticised as too confident if we self promote, however that can get in the way of good business so it’s extremely important we train ourselves out of that.      Key Learnings   Business and corporations around the country have endorsed and supported the Uluru Statement and that shows a real shift in Australian culture.   When considering a new board member, it is really important for boards to contemplate the work that needs to be done, who can do it and who can bring value and skills to the table, not just pick an Aboriginal person in the boardroom.   While the Black Lives Matter is a complicated thing, the issues resonate with the indigenous community. BLM traverses many topics and a systematic way to approach BLM is for corporations to endorse Uluru.   Quotable Quotes   “I think it's really easy for businesses to kind of stop with the usual suspects names or their mates or people who look the part but aren't necessarily going to bring what you need to the table… depth of knowledge and confidence to talk up and confidence to move outside of your own particular sphere of knowledge or influence, which is what makes a great board.” – Megan Davis  “I'm not someone who's coming to an area and doesn't have a command of the game.” – Megan Davis  “Boards do have a role to play, particularly in the way in which the organisation and other stakeholders deal with indigenous matters.” – Megan Davis  “The issue is how Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are to deal with these matters in a structural way that's changed and that can only be done through the Constitution, anything else is kind of very piecemeal and ad hoc.” – Megan Davis    Important Resources and Links   If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/.  If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.  Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.  If you’re interested in viewing her professional portfolios and achievements, visit her profile:  https://research.unsw.edu.au/people/professor-megan-jane-davis  The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson.    Disclaimer: Guests featured in the podcast are speaking from their personal experiences only. As this advice has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situation or needs, you should, before acting on the advice, consider its appropriateness to your circumstances.

This episode, Catherine interviews Non-Executive Director and Sustainability Advisor, Sam Mostyn, one of Australia’s most experienced female board directors and chairs with experience that spans business, government, sport, the arts and community organisations. Sam talks about the responsibility of being a trailblazer, why she’s not concerned about being a quota appointment to a board and why women should worry less about why they’re asked to go on a board and think more about the skills they bring to the table.   Part 1 (of this two-part episode)  Valuable Discussion Points   [00:48] Why did Sam take the board pathway, what came up and what crossroads did she find herself facing?  Working as a senior executive at Insurance Australia Group, Sam was approached by the Australian Football League with an opportunity to be the first female appointed to its board. Whilst it was a huge decision, Sam felt it was the right one and would provide her with invaluable skills and life experience for her future career. In addition, it also gave her an opportunity to help change the whole nature of governance in a sporting code that she cared about and bring her own skills and knowledge to the table.   [03:28] Was the experience a baptism of fire?   Sam was the first female appointed board member within an industry that has traditionally been very male-dominated. Whilst, Sam knew the role would require a high level of self confidence, sense and tactics which she mentioned can be difficult at times, she was surprised to learn that whilst the Australian Football League is viewed as a very masculine organisation, women play an extremely important role in supporting these organisations. As such, Sam made a conscious effort to ensure that whilst she was the first female appointed board director, she certainly wouldn’t be the last, with five strong female leaders having been appointed since her commencement.   [06:29] Her support of the quota system and how she opened the doors for future female board members?  Women still do not have parity in most industries and companies and as a result there needs to be quotas and systems in place that ensure women are seated at the table where important decisions are being made.  Women, who believe these quotas are not meritorious appointments should aim to decouple the word merit from quota and understand that they were chosen because they were the best person for the job. For the women who are offered  these opportunities, Sam encourages them to accept and show their great character, strength and merit rather than worrying about how they got there. up to them to bring their best self into those rooms and open the way for others to come.  [08:30] When is it the right time to make the transition to a board level position, such as a NED?   There are arguments for both taking on the role of a NED, or remaining in an executive role. It comes down to the strengths each woman has built over their careers. It is important to understand that a NED role is not for everyone, it is not a lifestyle choice and can be very demanding and challenging. However, it is also extremely rewarding.    Part 2 (of this two-part episode)  Valuable Discussion Points   [05.27] Has she said no to a board approach?  Sam’s approach to being a board member is to ensure she has a balanced portfolio of organisations ranging from ASX companies, to non-profits, to charities. Whilst many opportunities have presented themselves, Sam chooses those businesses and roles that she cares about. It doesn’t matter whether the company is big or small, or whether it adds lustre to her CV, if the company values do not align with hers, it is not a board where she can deploy her best skills.  [16:59] What has changed in the boardrooms? What is different now?  There are more women in the boardrooms now and whilst this is not a numbers game, we are still not where we would like to be in terms of representation. At the core of it, it is about the quality of the decision-making and governance and that will always benefit from having more women and more diverse people in those rooms. The topics have also changed. Things that were previously very hard to raise are now front and centre.  [19:53] What is the one thing that Sam wishes she’d known when she set out on her NED career?  She wishes she'd known what actually happens when a group of people are charged with the responsibility of some of the most complex business decisions in an environment where the rest of the world is watching the outcomes. There’s no end to the complexity of discussions that come with a group of people on any board. The importance of a chair in being able to lead the conversation, allowing it to expand without becoming disruptive and then bringing it back to reach a resolution is invaluable.     Key Learnings   Women will not get into boardrooms through hoping, wishing or praying. Targets and quotas are needed and when women are appointed, their job is to carry out the role effectively.   There's a whole psychology of women on boards when you are the first or second about how you're heard.  Carefully choose which company you are going to spend your time with and where you will deploy your skills. Don’t get stuck somewhere for five years just because it was a nice thing to do at that time.   Let your chair know what you are bringing to the table, don’t let it be a surprise to the board.   Make it your business to know what moves the board, and what things are happening in their lives. The more you know about someone and what moves them, the greater the possibility that you can move and drive them.     Quotable Quotes   “So decouple the word merit from quota and know that you're being appointed because you were the best person for the job.” – Sam Mostyn  “The idea that it's just a natural move from the executive world non-executive is one to retest. It's a very personal decision about where you really want to deploy skills and talent.” – Sam Mostyn  “I don't think the chair should have some greater power or role other than to be the conductor of the best outcomes from the team around the table.” – Sam Mostyn  “You get only one chance on entrance to negotiate or talk to the chair about what it is you want to bring.” – Sam Mostyn    Important Resources and Links   If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/.  If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.  Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.  If you’re interested in connecting with Sam or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-mostyn-45a1a32   The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson.   Disclaimer: Guests featured in the podcast are speaking from their personal experiences only. As this advice has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situation or needs, you should, before acting on the advice, consider its appropriateness to your circumstances.

This episode, Catherine interviews Non-Executive Director and Sustainability Advisor, Sam Mostyn, one of Australia’s most experienced female board directors and chairs with experience that spans business, government, sport, the arts and community organisations. Sam talks about the responsibility of being a trailblazer, why she’s not concerned about being a quota appointment to a board and why women should worry less about why they’re asked to go on a board and think more about the skills they bring to the table.   Part 1 (of this two-part episode)  Valuable Discussion Points   [00:48] Why did Sam take the board pathway, what came up and what crossroads did she find herself facing?  Working as a senior executive at Insurance Australia Group, Sam was approached by the Australian Football League with an opportunity to be the first female appointed to its board. Whilst it was a huge decision, Sam felt it was the right one and would provide her with invaluable skills and life experience for her future career. In addition, it also gave her an opportunity to help change the whole nature of governance in a sporting code that she cared about and bring her own skills and knowledge to the table.   [03:28] Was the experience a baptism of fire?   Sam was the first female appointed board member within an industry that has traditionally been very male-dominated. Whilst, Sam knew the role would require a high level of self confidence, sense and tactics which she mentioned can be difficult at times, she was surprised to learn that whilst the Australian Football League is viewed as a very masculine organisation, women play an extremely important role in supporting these organisations. As such, Sam made a conscious effort to ensure that whilst she was the first female appointed board director, she certainly wouldn’t be the last, with five strong female leaders having been appointed since her commencement.   [06:29] Her support of the quota system and how she opened the doors for future female board members?  Women still do not have parity in most industries and companies and as a result there needs to be quotas and systems in place that ensure women are seated at the table where important decisions are being made.  Women, who believe these quotas are not meritorious appointments should aim to decouple the word merit from quota and understand that they were chosen because they were the best person for the job. For the women who are offered  these opportunities, Sam encourages them to accept and show their great character, strength and merit rather than worrying about how they got there. up to them to bring their best self into those rooms and open the way for others to come.  [08:30] When is it the right time to make the transition to a board level position, such as a NED?   There are arguments for both taking on the role of a NED, or remaining in an executive role. It comes down to the strengths each woman has built over their careers. It is important to understand that a NED role is not for everyone, it is not a lifestyle choice and can be very demanding and challenging. However, it is also extremely rewarding.    Part 2 (of this two-part episode)  Valuable Discussion Points   [05.27] Has she said no to a board approach?  Sam’s approach to being a board member is to ensure she has a balanced portfolio of organisations ranging from ASX companies, to non-profits, to charities. Whilst many opportunities have presented themselves, Sam chooses those businesses and roles that she cares about. It doesn’t matter whether the company is big or small, or whether it adds lustre to her CV, if the company values do not align with hers, it is not a board where she can deploy her best skills.  [16:59] What has changed in the boardrooms? What is different now?  There are more women in the boardrooms now and whilst this is not a numbers game, we are still not where we would like to be in terms of representation. At the core of it, it is about the quality of the decision-making and governance and that will always benefit from having more women and more diverse people in those rooms. The topics have also changed. Things that were previously very hard to raise are now front and centre.  [19:53] What is the one thing that Sam wishes she’d known when she set out on her NED career?  She wishes she'd known what actually happens when a group of people are charged with the responsibility of some of the most complex business decisions in an environment where the rest of the world is watching the outcomes. There’s no end to the complexity of discussions that come with a group of people on any board. The importance of a chair in being able to lead the conversation, allowing it to expand without becoming disruptive and then bringing it back to reach a resolution is invaluable.     Key Learnings   Women will not get into boardrooms through hoping, wishing or praying. Targets and quotas are needed and when women are appointed, their job is to carry out the role effectively.   There's a whole psychology of women on boards when you are the first or second about how you're heard.  Carefully choose which company you are going to spend your time with and where you will deploy your skills. Don’t get stuck somewhere for five years just because it was a nice thing to do at that time.   Let your chair know what you are bringing to the table, don’t let it be a surprise to the board.   Make it your business to know what moves the board, and what things are happening in their lives. The more you know about someone and what moves them, the greater the possibility that you can move and drive them.     Quotable Quotes   “So decouple the word merit from quota and know that you're being appointed because you were the best person for the job.” – Sam Mostyn  “The idea that it's just a natural move from the executive world non-executive is one to retest. It's a very personal decision about where you really want to deploy skills and talent.” – Sam Mostyn  “I don't think the chair should have some greater power or role other than to be the conductor of the best outcomes from the team around the table.” – Sam Mostyn  “You get only one chance on entrance to negotiate or talk to the chair about what it is you want to bring.” – Sam Mostyn    Important Resources and Links   If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/.  If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.  Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.  If you’re interested in connecting with Sam or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-mostyn-45a1a32   The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson.   Disclaimer: Guests featured in the podcast are speaking from their personal experiences only. As this advice has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situation or needs, you should, before acting on the advice, consider its appropriateness to your circumstances.

Join Catherine Fox, award-winning journalist, author and presenter, for more interviews with women who are making an impact in the boardroom. Board diversity and gender balance deliver better outcomes for shareholders, consumers, employees and the community. This AICD podcast, powered by CommBank’s Women in Focus, aims to help shift the balance.   

Join Rebecca Warren, General Manager, Strategy & Transformation, Commonwealth Bank, as she sits down and speaks with Board Level Host, Catherine Fox.  As you probably already know, Catherine is an award winning journalist, author, presenter and leading commentator on women and the workforce.  Valuable Discussion Points [00:57] How has working in the finance and journalism sectors shaped your idea of female role models?  Catherine began her career in one of what was then, a big five trading bank, as a graduate. What struck her immediately was the number of talented women that were in this sector, but even more so the glass ceilings that so evidently were raised above them. Catherine recognised the lack of mobility in this sector when it came to women in the workforce, moreover, leadership roles were few and far between for women. Once Catherine had joined the Financial Review, she felt as if she was joining her tribe as a journalist, as she noticed a much more diverse workplace, and one that seemed to harbor and foster women leaders in a way that the finance sector just hadn’t yet. While noting the diversity of journalism and media in general, she still understands the gaps in equality in regards to opportunities and senior roles.   [03:44] Are these experiences what fostered this fight for gender equality and the path in which you’ve navigated throughout your career?  Catherine recognises that it’s not an overnight feeling, anything like this, it only develops over time. Growing up in a family that promoted equality and understood shared values and opportunities regardless of gender, Catherine posits her tenure at the University of Technology, Sydney, as the place where she had her eyes opened. Developing a better understanding of what equality actually means, Catherine took these lessons she had learnt at UTS and ensured that they permeated wherever she went, especially the workforces she had joined, ones that she believed were riddled with inequality of opportunity.  [05:52] What do you think makes a good leader and when have you seen leadership done well?  Catherine states that she’s seen fantastic leadership from both men and women throughout her career, however, due to her teachings and the awe she has for women who break the mould, she naturally has learnt or seen the best leadership through their decisions and judgements. While Catherine admits that describing a good leader is difficult, she admires people that are adaptable, and have the ability to adjust based on feedback, and are willing to take on board criticism if it will progress the group as a whole. Catherine also recognises the importance of courage within a leader, especially someone willing to challenge the perceptions of their industry and stand up for what they believe is right.  [08:06] What have you learnt from holding an advisory role on gender in the Australian Defence Force, which is a traditionally male dominated field?  Stepping into a role where she advised a field that was not only male dominated in regards to the recruits and workers, but in leadership, Catherine knew she was dealing with a problem regarding the current system and structure. Catherine posits that the Chiefs of Service and other commanders were honest and forthcoming with their lapses in judgement and progressiveness in regards to adapting the social and cultural movements of the Australian Defence Force. They were willing to work with people like Catherine to improve not only the gender equality issue, but the overarching issue of human equality within the Defence Force.  [12:13] What do you think we need to do to tackle the problem of both gender and culture diversity within the workforce together?  Catherine recognises the role of the Race Discrimination Commissioner, among others, in instilling the right values, resources and people so that the systems that are currently in place become more inclusive, regardless of race or gender. She posits that the diversity of race is high in many of the financial and accounting services, however, the more senior and partner positions are still dominated by Anglo-Saxon. Catherine herself is involved in the Asian Leadership Project, which aims at equipping minorities with the tools to succeed and progress within the workforce.  [14:26] In your book, Stop Fixing Women, you not only speak about some of the things we can put in place, but the importance of language and the perception that women are perhaps less suited for certain roles. Can you elaborate on this, and maybe share some of your insights?  Released in 2017, Stop Fixing Women, was about informing organisations that they’re wasting their time, money and precious attention on trying to fit women into a traditional norm, made traditional by men. Catherine believes this model, and the language that’s currently put in place to attempt to reduce the gender gap, has become counterproductive, and instead, hopes to promote a more inclusive, adaptive and mobile structure. Catherine wants businesses to remove their common ideas of what leadership looks like and imagine a world where it’s done differently, and give it a chance.   [18:45] What type of projects do you have in the works at the moment?  Spending the last few years of her life focused on writing and releasing her books, Catherine has now pivoted and begun speaking at a number of events and taking on advisory roles with a number of organisations. Her discussions at these events, and the advice she’s now sharing, centers around making people and organisations look at what doesn’t work and adjusting. Catherine has a belief that people need to stop trying to innovate our way around equality within the workforce, rather management and senior representatives need to have the intention to want to make change happen.    [20:25] While it may not be as swift as you would like, do you see this intent for change happening?  Catherine recognises that over time, the conversations have changed. Nearly all businesses are willing and able to speak and shift their practice to better suit all genders. The norms and roles that men and women once played within the workforce are slowly being broken down, and just becoming a workforce.     Key Learnings  Organisational change that aims at working towards a more equal workforce doesn’t have to be innovative, it’s achieved only through the true intentions of wanting to make change happen for the better.  Reducing the gender gap will not be achieved through trying to fix women, rather through changing  the traditional perception of leadership to suit the modern and adaptive workforce.  Educated, talented and willing workers are leaving their roles and industries because they believe they’re being restricted and marginalised due to their ethnicity or culture.  A good leader is someone who is open, and willing to speak to anyone regardless of position or role. They’re also courageous in their convictions, as, while adaptive, they are willing to fight for what they believe is right.    Quotable Quotes  “I walked into the newsroom, and felt like I had found my tribe” – Catherine Fox  “I went to [The] University of Technology, Sydney, to do a communications degree, and fell in with a bunch of radical feminists, which was really eye opening. I started seeing the world in a very different way” – Catherine Fox  “[Leadership is] about personality, style and warmth” – Catherine Fox  “Stop Fixing Women was very much about saying to organisations – stop wasting time, money and precious attention on trying to fit women into a traditional male breadwinner norm. It’s not working. Worse than that, I actually think it’s counterproductive” – Catherine Fox  “If we intend to change, we can. This is not rocket science” – Catherine Fox  Important Resources and Links  If you would like to gain knowledge in governance with the AICD, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit here.  If you would like to learn more about how Commbank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit here.  If you would like to connect with this episode's host of the Board Level podcast, Rebecca Warren, please visit here LinkedIn, here.  Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit here.  Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane. Disclaimer: Guests featured in the podcast are speaking from their personal experiences only. As this advice has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situation or needs, you should, before acting on the advice, consider its appropriateness to your circumstances.

Lisa Sthalekar is a former Australian cricketer and is on the boards of the Chappell Foundation and the Federation of International Cricketers' Assocations. In this special episode to celebrate International Women's Day and the T20 Women's Cricket World Cup, Lisa talks about how leadership in sports translates to the wider world, what she admires in a leader, changing the inherent bias in cricket language and the growing diversity of the sport. [01:02] How did you become a world class cricketer? What’s your story? Born in India, Lisa was adopted by a white English mother and an Indian father. Lisa said that when she was young she followed her Dad around everywhere, and cricket happened to be one of his passions so she was naturally drawn to the sport. Growing up going to cricket games at the SCG, Lisa quickly developed a deep curiosity but soon realised the barriers that existed around girls playing cricket in Australia. It wasn’t until Lisa was around 10 that her dad spoke to the local boys team and asked if she could play with them, and while they were hesitant about a girl playing for an all boys club this is where she did end up playing and this is where her passion for the game was developed. [03:09] Did you believe this was the norm that only boys could play cricket? Unbeknownst to the world of women’s cricketing Lisa learned through motivation by both herself and her parents that there were a number of opportunities for her to progress in Australian cricket, however, she also knew she had to get out of her comfort zone in order to do so.  [04:31] Was the idea of Cricket as a career unthinkable growing up? Even following her retirement in 2013, Lisa was unsure what her next steps would be. Throughout her career, Lisa was juggling both full time work, training commitments and taking leave when she went on tours for cricket Australia. While Lisa was consistently one of the highest paid women Cricketers throughout her career, the economy of women’s cricket didn’t allow for total focus, however, Lisa notes that seven years on from her retirement some women are getting paid triple figures and opportunities are growing.  [05:31] What do you think being a leader of sports team and being a leader in the business world have in common? Lisa believes that a leader, regardless of whether they are in business or on a sporting team, have a clear goal and can communicate with large, varying groups of people on how to achieve this goal. Finding a common goal amongst a group of people and using your passion to extract this from them is difficult, but essential in becoming a good leader. [06:57] Can you give us some examples of how the language used in women’s sport is changing to fit the more inclusive and progressive nature of sports nowadays? Being a commentator Lisa understands that the history of many sports, including cricket, has been dominated by male players, announcers and terminology. However, she’s noticing that with a change in opportunity, people around the game are beginning to understand the importance of using gender-neutral terms. For example, batsman into batter, or man of the match into player of the match. Lisa believes this is important as it teaches the youth watching that there is this opportunity for women to participate and succeed. Lisa also believes it’s the role of the commentator as the first line of reception for these young kids to be the pioneers of this change.  [10:29] Who are some great leaders you’ve admired? Former New South Wales and Australia Cricket Captain, Belinda Clark was deeply influential for Lisa as she was an instrumental leader throughout nearly her entire professional career. Lisa believed that Belinda was passionate and showed time and time again what it took to come back from adversity and get better following defeat. She said that her ability to understand her team and adjust her leadership style gave her the longevity and capability to lead both the veterans and the younger players throughout her career.[13:09] Where do you think this growth around women’s participation in all aspects of sports is coming from? Speaking on the progression of the cricketing world, Lisa understands the traditionalist view of men being the dominant participants and commentators of cricket on the world stage. During the 2010’s Lisa recognises the Indian Premier League as a league that acknowledged the potential audience they could reach if they included more women commentary and participation on the world stage. This quickly transitioned into other markets in England and Australia. Not only does Lisa believe the inclusion of women opens up more of the game to a wider audience but it freshens up a sport that was deeply rooted in old models of equality.  [15:55] What’s happening at the grassroots level of women’s participation in cricket?  Lisa believes that the exposure women’s cricket is getting on TV has contributed to this change in participation for cricket youth. Lisa also recognises that by exposing young girls to this level of professionalism, they’re motivated to press the competitive nature of the game and progress the talent level and commitment based on opportunity. [16:58] With this change, what do you see happening with women and sport in the broader context over the next few years? Lisa understands that further progression of not only women’s cricket but women’s sport in Australia will rely on the level of viewership the game receives. Cricket Australia has given the women’s sport exposure and the next step will be the league positioning itself to increase sponsorship, contracts and investments in development.  [18:31] With the I.C.C Women’s T20 World Cup being held in Australia this year and the final taking place in Melbourne on International Women’s Day, the event is aiming to break the world record for the largest audience at a standalone women’s sporting match. What would it mean globally if this was achieved? Lisa hopes and believes this event will be like many other historic Australian sporting moments, likening it to Kathy Freeman winning gold in the 2000 Sydney Olympics, everybody will stop and recognise this occasion as a landmark. The resources and engagement the I.C.C and organising committee have placed on the event reassures Lisa that the opportunity’s and environment being established for the younger generations of women cricketers is one that will sustain and permeate.  Key Learnings   A leader has clear goals and a clear direction on how to get there and they have the ability to communicate with their team understanding that everybody receives and reacts to motivation differently. A crucial aspect of being a good leader is your ability to adapt your leadership style over time and predicated by the community or person you’re trying to lead.  In exposing young women to the professional and growing opportunity for women cricketers this is creating a more competitive pool of talent in the grassroots competitions.  Women athletes understand their responsibility as public figures and their roles as models for younger women.  One of the key determinants of women’s exposure and growth on the national stage is an increase in viewership.   Quotable Quotes “So there is this passion, this love that is festering underneath everything. You've got to kind of use that to an advantage. Leaders of sport are able to enhance or extract that from everyone else.” - Lisa Sthalekar “They're not in the back pages for the wrong reasons. They're not on the front pages, for the wrong reasons, they're there because of what they've done, their skill, their athleticism. I'd like to think in the next 5 to 10 years that female athletes start to dominate this country because we have been dominating for a long period of time but now it's our time to shine.” – Lisa Sthalekar on women athletes as role models.  “It's going to be one of those moments. Firstly, if we just break it down to Australian sports, where was I when Cathy Freeman won gold? Where was I when Pat Rafter was playing Wimbledon final? Those types of moments in sport that you go, oh, I know exactly what I was doing, where I was.” – Lisa Sthalekar  Resources and Links  If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/. If you would like to learn more about how Commbank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. If you would like to view Lisa’s achievements and experience or connect with her please visit her LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-sthalekar-b1b0249a/?originalSubdomain=au. If you would like to learn more about Lisa’s cricketing achievements and involvement in the sport see her bio here, https://www.cricket.com.au/players/lisa-sthalekar/NUw3gaspuU-9m8QE8yyP6w. Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.

Jillian Broadbent AC FAICD is one of the most experienced directors in Australia. Currently chair of Swiss Re Life and a director of Woolworths, Jillian has also previously held positions on the boards of the Reserve Bank of Australia, the ASX, Coca-Cola Amatil, SBS, Qantas, Westfield Property Trusts and Woodside Petroleum. She has also been on numerous arts boards, including the Australian Brandenburg Orchestra and the Sydney Theatre Company. Here Jillian talks about how she built her extraordinary career, the best chairs she has worked with, how she stays across so many sectors, her advice to those starting out on their director journey and what's next for her. Valuable Discussion Points [01:26] How has Jillian managed to successfully navigate various boards responsible for numerous business sectors and industries? Executive experience in the financial sector allowed Jillian to successfully transition into a board career in which she operated on multiple boards with different industry focuses. Jillian also believes finding purpose in each board makes it much easier to distinguish your responsibilities.  [02:14] Does Jillian believe she’s bringing a different approach to each board depending on its nature, e.g. listed, government, not for profit?  While Jillian acknowledges that she’s always on a learning curve based on the diverse nature of her work, she posits that the governance and responsibility is similar and only requires an appetite for learning about that specific sector to really sustain engagement and interest.  [06:02] Does Jillian think it’s smart for a new NED to take on multiple director positions at the beginning of their career?   Naturally, at the beginning of a Director’s career they’ll want to be involved in a lot, however, Jillian believes that every individual has a personal mental and physical capacity that will be tested by a NED role. She believes that knowing what this capacity is important in creating a strong balance at the beginning of a career. [06:44] What are some of the advantages of gaining early experience on not for profit boards, especially when you’re considering a career as a NED or Director?   Not for profit boards are often used by prospective NED’s to gain valuable experience on the characteristics you must possess to be Director. Jillian believes that unlike traditional executive roles, being a NED requires patience and observation as you become not the one asking the questions but one of many in a collaboration of answering them. Jillian also recognises the importance of knowing how to navigate a board room and its various members, whom often possess different values and experiences to you. [08:43] What distinguishes a ‘good’ Chair? Arguably the most important part of any board dynamic is the Chair. This individual is responsible for maintaining a healthy dynamic of board members and meetings, and Jillian believes this is achieving through valuing your input and view on any given discussion or topic. [09:59] What are some key challenges Jillian has faced when joining a new board? Jillian speaks on her experience of joining the Clean Energy Finance Corporation and within a few months being told by the government that it was going to be abolished. She highlights this ordeal as a time in which she learnt how to navigate adversity on a large scale, and that when you join a board, you’re being brought in to better it and encourage the members to want to excel.  [11:08] When considering issues or discussions on a board who do you talk to in order to better understand your approach or thoughts on the topic? Due to the often stagnant nature of the annual board meeting schedule, Jillian believes informal dialogue between board members is crucial in sustaining healthy communication, building rapport and relationships as well as gaining a better understanding of the room’s dynamics [12:43] What are some critical skills you believe would assist potential women NED in attempting to begin a career as a director on boards? Jillian understands that transitioning into a board career isn’t an easy task as it takes diligence in your time and thoughts. Being a NED requires a wealth of knowledge on the topic at hand and preparation for any question or situation. Jillian also believes you need to develop comfortability with your Chair and fellow members so that you can become satisfied with any decision regardless of outcome.               [14:44] How do you manage disagreements on a board? Jillian shares her experiences in not allowing any disagreement within a board to become personal. She believes it’s a skill you must learn in order to understand when and if someone is attacking your point of view or perspective, always bring it back to the subject of the discussion. Once an individual begins to make a disagreement personal or diverts from the subject it diminishes their capacity to contribute.  [16:53] How do you maintain a level of enthusiasm and interest in your board roles when your schedule becomes busier?  Jillian, who states she’s always been a person of curiosity, believes that each individual has their own capacity in which they need to fill. Personally, this need to discover and diverse passion for a range of industries and topics has allowed Jillian to maintain enthusiasm and drive for an extended period of time.  [18:26] What are Jillian’s thoughts on the current landscape of women’s involvement in board rooms and board room roles? Jillian believes that she has seen growth, particularly within the industry sectors she’s involved in, however, acknowledges the change has and remains glacial. Any effective Chair understands that the most important diversity is the diversity of thought and this is only achieved by allowing a variety of values, experiences and people to represent these positions.  [20:10] How can you challenge aspects of ‘group think’ within a board? Jillian recognises that group think stems from the complacency of executives and the Chair in not promoting diverse opportunities and individuals who possess individual thought with the ultimate goal being to consider the members of the organisation, whether that be employees, stakeholders etc.  [20:53] Who are some of the directors that have impressed you over the years and what qualities do they typically possess?  Jillian believes that a good director must approach all board meetings with a diligence of briefs and a consistent understanding of company direction. She believes that having a position like this allows for you to be a leader and always think laterally so then to allow others to continue growing and evolving with you.  [22:26] What advice would you give to a woman considering a transition or preparing for a transition into a NED career? Jillian recognises that this transition is all about timing, because as discussed prior becoming a NED is a mentally and physically taxing role. Preparing for this type of role is also just as important and can be conducted through procuring any style of executive or governing position experience within your organisation.  [24:06] What are Jillian’s future career plans? Jillian has and believes she always will continue to look only at the task at hand and never any further. Planning and scheduling within an annual board calendar has allowed Jillian to maintain focus and she has no plans to stop this style of occupation Key Learnings    Every board, regardless of industry or sector, proposes new and valuable lessons and you must be prepared for these.    Evaluate your mental and physical capacity before making a decision to join a specific board.  When you’re an executive you’re more in control of outcomes, whereas as a NED you become more a part of the conversation.  Informal dynamics of being a NED are nearly just as important as the formal meetings.  Focus on the subject at hand, no matter the state of the room - at any point if you bring it back to the subject it can be productive.  The most important diversity is the diversity of thought and if you limit this diversity it instantly becomes detrimental to the company.  Group think refers to the practice of thinking or generating a decision as a group and is typically unchallenged and promotes poor-quality decision making.     Quotable Quotes  “I think everyone’s got to adjust their load with their capacity and I say their capacity being their mental and physical capacity” – Jillian Broadbent “I think… as an executive, you’re so much more in control of outcomes and what you can do about it, whereas as a non-executive you’re one step removed from that” – Jillian Broadbent “I think making your voice heard is more a matter of what you’re saying rather than how you’re saying it. If you do your homework and you’ve got the facts and you understand what the company is really focused on… then it’s usually pretty effective” - Jillian Broadbent  “When you do have a concentration of shareholding, you realise that your impact or potential impact as one non-executive director is much more diluted” – Jillian Broadbent  Important Resources and Links |  If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/. If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. If you’re interested in learning more about Jillian’s contributions to the finance, arts and higher education sectors as well as her career achievements, view her biography on Advance https://www.advance.org/jillian-broadbent, or read more about her on her University of Wollongong Australia page https://www.uow.edu.au/about/governance/governance-structure/university-council/jillian-broadbent/. The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.

Melanie Willis is a non-executive director of Challenger Limited, Southern Cross Austereo, PayPal Australia and Chief Executive Women. Previously, she was CEO of NRMA Investments  and a director of Deutsche Bank. Here Melanie talks about finding the right board, how to have your voice heard at the board table, the importance of listening and making the transition from your executive career to the boardroom. Valuable Discussion Points  [01:22] How does a director position themselves effectively to make their voices heard amongst a board? Melanie believes that there are three key ways in which a director can effectively position themselves within a board. These include; make sure you’re picking the right board considering your skills, expertise and future outlook or vision for the company. It also looks at your ability to understand the competitive economic environment and source perspectives from outside of the industry. And lastly, the consideration of timing and knowing that it's not always about raising the point but also supporting others.  [02:52] What are some useful tactics in creating a healthy dynamic within a board? Melanie believes that in order to promote a healthy flow of discussion and decision making amongst a board, as a director, timing is everything. You must know when to say something and it needs to be substantial and effective within the brief of the meeting. Melanie also states that leaning in to your point and ensuring that you’re forthcoming in your deliverance and nothing is lost in translation. [03:33] How do you know you’re on the right board? It’s all about fit when it comes to feeling good about being on a board. Ensure that you are passionate about the industry aspects and have performed all the research you possibly can on your relevant board, as this will allow you to more comfortably promote discussion and debate. Melanie also insists that the Chair plays an instrumental role in allowing this discussion and promoting a level of engagement throughout all levels of a board and organisation. [04:58] How do you find the balance of when to speak up on a board and when to listen? While Melanie acknowledges that like many aspects of business, you can be as prepared as anyone but you will always learn your most on the job, she also posits that there’s a level of personal liability on a director to know when to ask the right question. Not only is it about finding a cut through, amongst all the discussions and decisions, but you must always remember who you’re representing. Melanie says that when she’s in a board meeting she considers the perspectives of everyone of her stakeholders; regulators, customers, investors and employees. [08:20] How important do you think diversity is within a board? Melanie believes that diversity within a board promotes better business values and allows for you to operate optimally as it forces you to consider the IQ and EQ of the room, as well as reduce the dominance of one individual as there’s more diverse voices, experiences and values. Melanie also believes that by promoting diversity within boards, this also allows members to learn and navigate different social cues, which is an instrumental aspect of any good operation within a board room. [10:51] How do you manage the dynamics of a boardroom table? A board amongst other things aims to handle conflict and dissension and this can only be managed if all members maintain good values and business principles. Melanie believes the Chair sustains this dynamic by ensuring that all individuals are heard and listened to, and ultimately they lead to an acknowledgement of long term sustainability.  [12:39] How do you deal with creative abrasion as a director? It's important to understand how to manage conflict and provide resolutions that lead to growth and improvement both for the individuals involved and the business. Melanie believes that as a director you can not be scared of creative abrasion rather you should welcome the idea of generating discussion. The combination of directors with a wealth of ASX experience with non-ASX directors that do have the preferred skills in handling creative abrasion and disruption can be a healthy dynamic if managed effectively by the Chair and other board members. [15:18] Outside of meetings how do you communicate ‘informally’ with other board members? Melanie believes that the skills you develop on a board can be taught and learnt in various aspects of business life. Melanie promotes the following of passions as it relates to board involvement, even sacrificing professional gain to learn more about the way these directors and boards operate. She also insists that it all comes down to seeking people and thought leaders you find interesting, sitting down, having a cup of coffee and picking their brain. [17:00] How do you manage a career as a Non-Executive Director? Deciding over 15 years ago, Melanie has navigated life as a NED and director with the intent to understand the minds of other directors and learning that while she may know the right questions to ask, it's how you can answer that question that’s important for a director. A 24/7 job, Melanie insists that maintaining success as NED is in preparation, research and trusting your ability to deliver and discuss issues and opportunities. Melanie also believes she’s constantly learning and evolving, ensuring that she tries to give back to emerging directors as a mentor whenever she can. [19:44] What are some of the essential skills you choose to inform emerging women directors? While Melanie believes it’s important to fulfil the criteria of a brief in regards to relevant skills and expertise, she highlights that new directors need to be able to instil confidence in themselves so they can take risks and continue to move laterally as a person and as a director. [21:18] How do you know when it’s the right time to transition into a board role? Melanie believes that if you maintain an executive role and continue to grow you profit and loss (P&L) skills then this will increase your opportunity and confidence in transitioning at any time. Melanie also insists that if you’re thinking about making the transition, ensure you’re being a leader within your current role, as the characteristics of a leader translate effectively, incorporating aspects of understanding, listening and conflict resolution. [25:15] What are some challenges Melanie faced as a growing director and what does she believe she’s learnt from them? Melanie believes that in any position she’s had as a director there’s been dissension conflict, however she believes that throughout her career these moments have provided her the ability to self-reflect and learn from with resilience. She also believes that she’s learnt to look at every company she’s involved in as a ‘day one’ company, which forces her to remind herself the reasons she took the position in the first place. [27:25] What perspective do you have on the progression of women around board tables? Deeply involved in the progression of women’s involvement around boards and Executive positions in Australian businesses and industries, Melanie understands the disparities of women’s involvement in Chief Executive roles. While acknowledging the growth of the industry standard with groups such as Chief Executive Women (CEW) and the Male Champions of Change, she insists there needs to be a better understanding of why these disparities exist and create a more fluid progression of equality within these positions to make it a permanent characteristic of boards. Key Learnings Don’t be afraid to invite someone to get a cup of coffee, that’s where the best conversations are had. If you’re not finding you’re receiving the opportunity you want at your current workplace or organisation, be brave and look somewhere else. While there are 60% of women graduates there are only 2% of women CEO’s. Creative abrasion refers to the conflict that arises between people or groups in regards to business decisions, tactics and strategies. Understanding and managing these differing interpretations is an important part of being a director. Understand the importance of profit and loss skills and strategies relevant to each industry and sector.  Quotable Quotes   “It’s having lots of coffees with people not to say ‘how do I get on a board?’, but to understand how they think as directors” – Melanie Willis “in certain areas like the CFO role we’re going forward, [however] CEO we’re going backwards” – Melanie Willis “I think we have a lot of amazing supporters. We’ve got the Male Champions of Change and we have 600 CW women, but clearly progress is still glacial, and we need to work harder and we need to be more focused in how we drive that” – Melanie Willis “I would just encourage women to be brave, to take risks, and to not take no for an answer” – Melanie Willis. Important Resources and Links   If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/. If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. If you’re interested in connecting with Melanie or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-w-2997197/?originalSubdomain=au. The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.

Robin Low is one of the busiest directors in Australia. She sits on the boards of Appen, AUB Group Limited, CSG Limited, IPH Limited and she is the deputy chairman of the Auditing and Assurance Standards Board. She is also a director of not-for-profits Public Education Foundation and Primary Ethics. Prior to this, Robin was a partner at PwC for more than 17 years. Here Robin talks about finding your feet on a board, preparing for a director career, interpersonal dynamics and managing your workload as a director on multiple boards. Valuable Discussion Points [01:25] How long did it take Robin to get the lay of the land on a board in regard to participation and discussions? Robin believes that the approach you have to a board depends entirely on the skills you offer and the culture in which it fosters. Having a background in auditing committees, she was given the skills and knowledge on how to effectively navigate a board room that promotes different communication styles and dynamics. Robin observes as a director, admitting that it took time to build the confidence to contribute, but recognises her contributions as reflective and well-timed. [04:33] Are there any traps in entering a board as a beginner or the new person? Naturally, people will enter a new board wanting to change the fabric of it, however, Robin believes that your value will be most recognised if you begin by observing and reflecting on the conversations and decisions made. This will allow you to receive and disseminate feedback whilst honing your skills and expertise to most accurately understand where and when to contribute. Robin also recognises the importance of a good chairman in regard to setting expectations for new board members and their ability and capacity to contribute to the flow of the meetings and organisation. [07:07] What are the expectations from fellow directors and the chair when you join a new board? A chair isn’t bringing you onto a board expecting anything other than what they believe you are capable of. Establishing these expectations early and understanding your value proposition within the organisation allows for clarity and accountability. [09:41] What are some observations Robin has made surrounding the dynamics of decision making within a board? Heavily influenced by the ability the chairman has to maintain a constant tone within meetings, they must understand the dynamics of situations and their risks as well as the individuals within the board. Healthy risk assessment, however, takes time, and the importance of this in regards to influential decision making is constantly evaluated throughout boards and their meetings. [14:08] What’s the nature of chairing committees and would Robin suggest it to an emerging Director? An effective tool, Robin believes that her experience in chairing audit and risk committees has consolidated her ability to observe, discuss and deliberate in formal and dynamic settings. Focused more on risk evaluation and more ‘concrete’ discussions, this position promotes your leadership and ability to maintain a committee. [15:55] Once Robin received her first listed board, did she find this led to further opportunities within the space? Robin believes that like many formal employment opportunities the necessity for ‘prior experience’ is always lingering, however, she recognises that this narrative must change in order to gain more dynamic boards. Acknowledging that there must be a brief for all positions as a director, Robin also believes that she’s noticed a shifting focus towards finding directors that have experience, knowledge and skills in the requisite field rather than solely prior listed board experience. [16:47] Did Robin plan for herself to have a career on boards, and what was this transitionary period like for her?  Robin completed the company directors course with the Australian Institute of Company Directors 5 years prior to departing PWC ensuring that she would be both prepared and informed as she made this transition. Robin’s skills and preparation were highly influential in making this transition; however, she believes the self-managed nature and sporadic interactions amongst board groups were the key learning curves for her. [19:28] Does Robin have colleagues or peers that she can chat to in order to consolidate ideas? The ability a director has to interact and develop meaningful relationships with both board members and other directors heavily influences their navigation of ideas and opportunities. While Robin recognises that attending events as a NED is important, she believes her involvement in auditing standards boards and relationships with fellow directors assists her most in developing her skills and ideas. [20:51] What does a full slate look like for Robin and how does she handle this? Currently sitting on 4 listed boards, Robin believes the ability an individual has to navigate these are dependent on the schedules of each. Robin also posits that each board, depending on the nature of the industry, the level of regulation and the dynamic of the meetings is the key determinant in her deciding whether or not she can join. [22:02] What advice does Robin give to aspiring women Directors on when it’s the right time to transition into a board career? Robin insists that age isn’t the determinant for this transition, rather it’s the level of experience you’ve accumulated both as a professional and as a person. Highlighting ‘timing’ as an important aspect of the process, an individual must be equipped for the role in regard to their skills and experience but also personally ready for the style of self-managed work being a part of a board requires. [24:44] Is there an appetite for board roles amongst emerging women directors and would Robin like to see the involvement of more women in key decision making within boards? Robin has noticed an increased monitoring of boards by regulators within recent years, leading to a potential disengagement with the position. However, she also insists that it’s a rich and fulfilling position that allows any individual to highlight their skills and specialise within a specific field or industry that aligns with their value proposition. Robin recognises the importance of promoting diversity within boards in establishing a healthy board dynamic of differing skills, experiences and values. This promotion of a diverse board dynamic ultimately comes down to the capability of the chair in recognising where an individual with a particular set of skills and expertise can provide affective input. Key Learnings Every board has its own culture, it’s up to you to learn how to navigate it. Don’t get trapped when you enter a board by trying to change too much, begin by being reflective and observant. A chair isn’t bringing you onto a board expecting anything from you that they don’t think you’re capable of. While there’s still stigma surrounding the notion of ‘prior listed board experience’, directors are also looking for individuals who have effective skills, knowledge and experience that’s relevant to the industry or organisation of the respective board. Procuring experience within company director settings, including the company directors course with AICD allowed Robin the opportunity to effectively transition into a board career.  Quotable Quotes   “We’d love to have you, but you don’t have listed experience. Oh you have listed experience, join us!” – Robin Low on the ‘catch 22’ nature of listed board positions. “Make sure you’re getting enough… interaction with enough people and enough networks, because in fact it’s actually quite an isolating role in many respects.” – Robin Low  Importance Resources and Links   If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/. If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. If you’re interested in connecting with Robin or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/robin-low-b4b4164/?originalSubdomain=au. For more information regarding Robin’s various contributions as a Director and as a member of the Auditing and Assurance Standards Board, please view her biography via https://www.auasb.gov.au/About-the-AUASB/Current-Board-members/Robin-Low.aspx.  The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.

Louise is on the boards of Advance, an organisation connecting Australians around the world, HVAC solutions provider Orion Mechanical Services and chair of Hanrob Pet Hotels. In her executive career, she worked in banking, finance and infrastructure at Macquarie Bank, Deutsche Bank and Babcock & Brown. Here she talks about the search process for boards, how to navigate the system and avoiding 'imposter syndrome'. Valuable Discussion Points [01:35] How did Louise approach search consultants and appointments to position herself on boards? When beginning her career as a NED, Louise was eager to justify her seat and prove her intellect at any turn, suffering from what she believed was ‘imposter syndrome’. Regretting this, she learnt to be honest with search firms and develop transparent and genuine relationships so they work with you in establishing a proposition value for all future board opportunities. [03:05] What does the search process actually involve when attempting to find a board that suits you? There’s multiple ways in which you may go through the process into becoming a board member, regardless, Louise believes it comes down to your network and the ability you have to communicate with them about your positioning. [05:31] When interviewing with a chair or director board, how did/do you learn from those experiences? Louise believes that the interviewing process is like a ‘dance’, and you have to be relaxed in order for them to see your skills and preparation. Not only are the firms interviewing you, but you’re interviewing them, therefor, highlighting your proposition value so that both sides can benefit from the relationship. [06:19] Do you speak with current chair and directors and do they give you advice on where you can add value? Louise is in constant communication regarding her value and ability to leverage her skills to optimize productivity. Operating within risk and complex organisational situations, Louise maintains this communication to ensure clarity in her proposition and decision making values. [07:39] What are some reassurances that you look for as a prospective board member? Louise utilises her deep insight and research capabilities to accumulate knowledge, that assisted by her networks, give her the best opportunity to understand board dynamics and the role/position she would be given within a board structure. [09:39] What are some of the positive and challenging aspects of looking to join a prospective board? Developing a strategy to approach a board is one of the most difficult aspects of the process, and Louise has found that while it pays to be eager, you’re best to develop trusting and genuine relationships with recruiters so that they can communicate your value for you. Louise also recognises the importance of being considered, and knows that while you may not always get the position, if your name is being discussed amongst recruiters then you’re effectively branding yourself. [11:39] In retrospect are there any boards you’re glad you missed out on? Louise recounts a situation in which she was in the running for two separate boards and her decision in continuing the process was affected. On one board, Louise was communicated to that she would be entering an industry structure that would soon be disrupted, while the other offered a more comfortable structure she was hesitant in her ability to command the board room with its current members at the time. [13:44] Do you find that your appointment on boards is through search consultants or other means? Louise has found that most of her appointments regarding board positions are established through networks and relationships with firms that understand her proposition value. However, she also recognises that certain boards, particularly government related ones, require a more detailed and regulated process of selection, and this is where her experiences and skills are beneficial. [16:28] What advice would you give someone beginning the search process? Louise insists that it’s like a date, some are good and some are bad. The most important aspect of learning from these processes is to rely on your network for support and clarity of decisions made by both yourself in the interviewing process and the prospective firm or board. [15:45] When speaking to emerging board directors, what are some must have pieces of advice you give to them? Louise attempts to instill an attitude in her young directors that promotes an environment that’s removed from competition and perfection, and allows conversations surrounding mistakes and experiences. [16:45] Do you observe ‘imposter syndrome’ in other women within the world of directors and boards? Louise recognises the world she lives in, and that cognitive diversity exists within the professional workplace. Louise believes that more women need to develop their own individual path rather than following the primarily male one that currently exists. Maintaining humility and understanding mistakes and weaknesses is also a strategy that can be used to position your value. [17:03] What kind of concerns do you believe women have when considering a move into a board career? Louise believes that the major concerns stem from a narrative developed within the media and promoted by the public, to which women are utilised as ‘scapegoats’, or an excuse for major changes or disruptions experienced within a businesses or organisation. She also recognises the self-doubt that is prevalent and a lack of awareness surrounding positions and roles. [18:36] What do you see unfolding in the future that can make board careers take the next step in regard to gender equality? The nuances of board briefs are formed to be non-gender specific, however, Louise believes that they don’t yet consider the historical inequality of the professional environment. Louise believes in establishing better development and opportunities for women and this will continue to grow the ability search firms have to assess directors who meet the requirements. [19:40] While there are a series of challenges faced through this process, how satisfying can career as a NED be? Louise has attempted to indulge in diverse boards, full of varying individuals, ideas and experiences, thus, allowing her to position her value to affect numerous facets of public and private spheres. Once you have refined your skills as a director and developed a strong network you’re also given opportunities to affect non for profits or passion related projects/organisations, something that can be spiritually beneficial. Key Learnings Don’t suffer from ‘imposter syndrome’, firms are looking for all different types of people. There are a multitude of process you can go through to be placed on a board, including; You’ve been suggested by the chair You’re the stalking horse yourself. You’ve been referred by other reputable directors. It’s all about finding your proposition value and communicating this to search consultants. Build trusting and genuine relationships with search firms and networks, you’ll be surprised with the work they’ll do for you. The greatest ability you have as an emerging woman director is assisting in developing an environment that’s removed from competition and rather focuses on conversations that aim to improve. In order to take the next step in regard to gender equality within board positions rets on both a continued development and education of women directors, and boards/search firms ability to recognise the discrepancy that exists within current board briefs relating to historical inequalities prohibiting fair opportunities. Quotable Quotes “It’s hard. It’s like being single and dating. Some dates are really good and some dates are awful” – Louise Thurgood commenting on a board search process. “I think the director journey, it’s a random walk” – Louise Thurgood “Start to be more relaxed and dance, because you’re actually interviewing them as well” – Louise Thurgood on how to approach interviewing for a board position “I share with them my mistakes because I think sometimes what happens in this game, particularly for women, we’ve forgotten that one of our greatest strengths is our ability to share our mistakes” – Louise Thurgood Important Resources and Links If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/. If you would like to learn more about how Commbank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. If you’re interested in connecting with Louise or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/louise-thurgood-4a61b96a/?originalSubdomain=au. For more information regarding Louise’s achievements and involvements on various boards, organisations and industries view her biography as referenced on Advance, an Government funded initiative that connects Australians globally, https://www.advance.org/louise-thurgood. The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.

Jackie McArthur MAICD is on the boards of poultry producer Inghams, seafood producer Tassal, and funeral services provider Invocare. She is also a former director of Blackmores and in her previous executive life was a supply chain executive at McDonalds. Here Jackie, a former engineer, talks about moving from management into the boardroom, working with board recruiters, the importance of mentoring and... she reveals the best kept secret of being  director.   Valuable Discussion Points [01:29] How did Jackie’s pathway lead her to a NED career? Anything but linear, Jackie’s career began as an engineer, however, eventually she moved into logistics and supply chain management. Building a wealth of experience, Jackie specialised in supply food chain manufacturing, crisis management and consumer insights both nationally and internationally. These skills, along with her understanding of International affairs, had Jackie approached by headhunters who assisted in realizing a long held ambition to be a director and leader. [05:09] With all the success Jackie was having in management, what made becoming a NED so desirable? Jackie believes that being a NED is the ‘world's best kept secret’, operating in a capacity that allows you to navigate various industries and businesses. Apart of the new breed of director, Jackie insists that instead of winding down, she’s finding new dynamic ways to affect and influence change for boards and shareholders. [08:33] How did Jackie’s career give her insight into a NED career? Stemming from her experience in high tension situations and global affairs, Jackie had the ability to add instant value and insight to any board. This experience also allowed her to understand and navigate a variety of communications and conversations with a number of board members. [12:04] Do you have any advice for aspiring NED’s in regards to that period of adjustment when affirming your position on a board? No matter how well you’ve trained or how ripe you are with experience, nothing will prepare you for the meetings and conversations held around a board table. However, Jackie believes that she gives advice with three things in mind; How does ‘her’ story relate to them? What skill sets (strengths) have assisted her in moving up? Where does she need to improve?  [13:47] What were some desirable skills or lessons you learnt that recruiters like about you that you didn’t expect? The relevance of varying industry involvement shocked Jackie when she discovered her background in engineering intrigued board recruiters. Throughout her career both nationally and internationally Jackie had been apart of organisations that had issues, and remained apart of these organisations, solving these problems and leaving them better than when she arrived, and recruiters loved this about her. [19:25] What does your network mentors and mentees look like? Surrounding herself with ‘champions’, Jackie has a group of roughly 12 individuals who are at all different stages of their career and she trusts them to provide relevant advice and guidance. [21:54] What would you tell an aspiring women director that you believe would entice them towards a career as a NED?  A continuation of her career as a manager in various industries, Jackie believes everybody’s journey is different, however, the one constant is that skills and experience will place you in a position to succeed. The evolution of the modern board has resulted in participants not needing any fancy degrees or powerful connections, rather, boards are becoming more diverse, and as long as you’re willing to play the long game, you’ll find one that you’ll be able to influence and change. Key Learnings  A career into becoming a director can, and often is non-linear. There is no perfect pathway. Employers like scares, it means you’ve struggled and had the determination to improve. Being a NED is the world’s best kept secret Surround yourself with champions, and these are people who promote and enable your best interest both in your company and in the company of others. Becoming a NED is not something you do at the end of your career for a hobby, it’s a proactive and self-maintained dynamic position that allows you to influence and affect multiple organisations, industries and businesses. Quotable Quotes “Like many people I guess I see myself as being quite tragic in the area of networking. I really have to push myself to go to certain functions or networking functions that I know will bring me into a circle of people that are not people I've met before” – Jackie McArthur “I don't have a network because I don't network, as it turns out I have a strong group of individuals at various stages of their career that I can rely on and call on and trust to give great advice”  – Jackie McArthur  “The only constant in life is change” – Jackie McArthur Important Resources and Links  If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://www.aicd.com.au. If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.  Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. If you’re interested in connecting with Jackie or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackie-mcarthur-2846509/. The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.

Sally Evans FAICD is on the boards of ASX200 Healthcare provider Healius, New Zealand retirement village operator Oceania Healthcare and chair of social enterprise LifeCircle Australia. In 2018, she was one of the Australian Financial Review's 100 Women of Influence. Here Sally talks about how she got started in her director career, what she would have done differently and her advice for those looking to step up to the boardroom. Valuable Discussion Points  [01:26] Why did Sally decide to become a non-executive director (NED)? Transitioning from a director of an aged care facility to a non-executive on a multitude of different boards, Sally wanted to be on the side that made decisions.  Already involved in aspects of Non-Executive Director processes, Sally was interested in organisational structure, culture and how this affected the movement of people and ideas within a business  [03:41] In hindsight, what does Sally believe she could have done differently?  Sally regrets not having a director mentor in her development phase, as they’re crucial in providing a reference for opportunities and honest feedback. She also wishes she got in front of more boards she really wanted to be a part of, and once she was, she was confident, prepared and clear in her approach and purpose. [07:18] Difference between being a NED and a part of the management team? Taking nearly a full year cycle of boardroom meetings developing relationships and skills, Sally adopted a mindset of always trying to ask the most important questions and allowing the management team to answer and discuss freely.  [13:14] When is it the right time to make the transition to a board level position, such as a NED?  Never a perfect time, Sally acknowledges she should of,  and could have, transitioned sooner. Building her expertise over her career she leveraged this along with a strong support and structure into a board level position. The process is tenuous, she admits, taking Sally just on two years, but recommends it as a necessary step for true leaders and directors.  [18:46] What are some other key challenges Sally has faced? Sally believes that one of the toughest challenges during this transition is recognising how self-disciplined you need to be. It truly a one-woman business, being a NED, you have no singular goal or task, rather you coordinate your workload based on the types and styles of boards you’re a part of. [26:00] Is Sally noticing any changes in board diversity? Sally believes that she left it far too long and aims to instill confidence in eager women and men that approach her about the transition into board level. She also appreciates the mentoring she received during her transition and seeks to provide individuals similar to herself, wisdom and advice regarding opportunities within boards. Key Learnings  Governance comes from a curiosity to understand the processes and structure of an organisation and how each individual affects these processes. Get in front of the right people, because it’s not about who you know, it’s about who knows you. You only get one opportunity. So, be confident, prepared and clear about why you’re there.  Never ask anyone to put you on their board – make them need you on their board. Leave your ego at the door. As a NED, you need to know the right questions to ask, being a part of a management team, you need to know the right answers.  Don’t undermine the executive’s opinion, offer constructive guidance and input. Being a NED means you’re a business of one, you must be extremely self-disciplined and managed. Be an active listener. The most important person you’ll get to know is the chair/s of your board. Quotable Quotes  “It’s not about who you know, it’s who knows you” – Sally Evans “I think I left it too late. I think I could have done this five years earlier than I actually did … I just didn’t feel quite confident enough. So, I would urge people to find those mentors, get that feedback and ask them to help them determine when the right time is to make that transition” – Sally Evans  “When you’re a Non-Executive Director, you’re essentially a business of one” – Sally Evans “As a director you have to listen, be curious, observe things and just keeping quiet long enough to really understand what management was saying. That was a skill I needed to learn” – Sally Evans  Important Resources and Links  If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.com.au. If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. If you’re interested in connecting with Sally or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/sally-l-evans/?originalSubdomain=au. For more information regarding Sally Evans, please view her biography referenced on Healius, one of many companies/institutions she represents as a NED https://www.healius.com.au/about-us/our-board-members/ms-sally-evans/ The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane. 

Board diversity and gender balance deliver better outcomes for shareholders, consumers, employees and the community. Join Catherine Fox, award-winning journalist, author and presenter, as she interviews women making an impact in the boardroom that inspires action. This latest AICD podcast, powered by CommBank’s Women in Focus, aims to help shift the balance.  First episode released 12 November. Let’s level up together.