MusicalTalk - The UK's Independent Musical Theatre Podcast

MusicalTalk continues its two part tribute to the late Charles Strouse, the legendary composer of Annie, Bye Bye Birdie, Applause, I and Albert, All American, Charlotte's Web, All Dogs Go To Heaven, Minsky's, Mayor, Marty, Nick and Nora and so many others! In this episode, Thos and Charles enjoy a charmingly inimate, detailed and honest look at his works and career which paint a perfect picture of the hugely talented but modest man he truly was; and it's a chance to learn more about the aborted Stanley Kubric Star Wars Musical!   Dick Van Dyke called him "one of the greats" and in this wonderful conversation, you'll find out why!

MusicalTalk pays a special tribute to the late, great Charles Strouse, who has just died a month shy of his 97th birthday. Charles was one of the giants of the last sixty years of musical theatre and leaves an enormous legacy: with new shows produced across seven decades, collaborations with Alan Jay Lerner, Lee Adams, Mel Brooks, Stephen Schwartz, Arthur Laurents, Martin Charnin, Rupert Holmes, Betty Comden and Adolph Green to name but a few, and with amazing rosta of shows and films featuring his music, such as Annie, Bye Bye Birdie, Golden Boy, Nick and Nora, Applause and All Dogs Go To Heaven, Charles Strouse was, as Dick Van Dyke observed "one of the greats".  In this special episode of MusicalTalk, Thos recalls his memories of this amazingly talented, yet always modest, musical theatre legend - and there's another chance to hear Charles in conversation from 2009 - so put on a happy face!

This week on MusicalTalk, Nick and Hannah take a sunny trip down memory lane to explore the legacy of the global phenomenon Mamma Mia! With Nick revisiting the stage show for the first time in 25 years, they discuss how the production has evolved over the decades and why its irresistible blend of ABBA hits and heartwarming storytelling continues to resonate with audiences worldwide. But the conversation doesn't stop in Greece! Nick and Hannah also dive into a galaxy far, far cheekier as they share their thoughts on The Empire Strips Back: A Burlesque Parody, now playing at Riverside Studios. Expect lightsabers, laughter, and a whole lot of sass in this unique theatrical experience.

It's the best possible news - MusicalTalk's Pick of the Fringe 2024 hits London in 2025! Pop Off Michelangelo! took Edinburgh by storm last summer, and now comes to London from May until July - and it's a tasty treat.  Thos talks to the show's writer, 21st century Renaissance Man, the talented Dylan MarcAurele, about how this multi-layered, clever, high-camp comedy came to be, whilst also analysing how the show also looks at darker and deeper contempory issues. With laughs, insights and song, you won't want to miss this delightful conversation with a truly creative man. It's time to pop on Pop Off Michelangelo!

This week on MusicalTalk, Nick returns to The Rocky Horror Show for the first time in 25 years and shares his reflections on the cult classic's enduring appeal, high camp, and raucous audience participation. Then, it's off to the London Coliseum, where Nick and Hannah experience The Great Gatsby — but in a rare twist, it's Nick who walks in knowing nothing about the show, while Hannah holds all the insight! Join them for a lively discussion of this ambitious new production, the surprises it held, and how it reimagines F. Scott Fitzgerald's iconic world for the stage.

In this week's episode, Thos takes a close look at the 1930 Marx Brothers musical comedy film, Animal Crackers, and its place against the backdrop of a number of transitions - the move from stage to screen for the madcap quartet, the loss of popularity of Hollywood film musicals at the end of the 1920s, the move from prosperity to economic slump following the Wall Street Crash, and how the film industry was learning to adapt stage shows for the silver screen after only four years of talkies!  And we take an additional look at Margaret Dumont, dubbed by Groucho himself as the "fifth Marx Brother", who began with opera and ended in rock 'n' roll and who worked with Laurel and Hardy, and WC Fields along the way. As Groucho said "Blessed are the crack(er)ed, for they shall let in the light!"

It's a century since Minnie's Boys, better known as the Marx Brothers, appeared on Broadway in their first fully fledged musical, and to mark the occasion, MusicalTalk is taking a close look at their 1930 musical comedy film, Animal Crackers. In this week's episode, Thos investigates what makes the Marx Brothers so remarkable and timeless, and takes a close look at the difference between the stage version of the story from 1928 and the post-Wall Street Crash film made in 1930.  There's also a brief comparison with the now forgotten Ritz Brothers who were a different kind of crackers! So it's Hooray for Captain Spalding!

In this insightful episode of MusicalTalk, Nick Hutson catches up with West End star and friend of the show, Emma Williams, for an honest chat about her remarkable 20-year journey in the theatre industry. From her breakout role in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang to her recent work on the innovative production Scissorhandz at the Southwark Playhouse, Emma reflects on how the landscape of musical theatre has evolved—and how becoming a parent has shifted her perspective both on and off stage. Expect laughter, wisdom, and a touch of nostalgia in this illuminating conversation between two industry friends. Tune in for a blend of behind-the-scenes anecdotes, industry insight, and a look at what it really means to balance artistry with real life.

In this episode of MusicalTalk, Nick and Hannah dive into the enchanted (and controversial) world of Disney's Snow White remake. With reimagined characters, missing dwarfs, and a whole lot of internet debate, they share their thoughts on whether this new take is a poisoned apple or a fresh perspective. They also recount their experience at A Whole New World of Alan Menken at the London Palladium, celebrating the legendary composer's timeless contributions to musical theatre and film. Is Disney rewriting history for better or worse? And just how dazzling was Menken's showcase of musical brilliance? Tune in for a lively discussion filled with insight, humor, and a dash of Disney magic!

At last, a musical about one of the unsung female heroes of musical theatre - Helen D'Oyly Carte!  Join Thos as he talkes to Susan Ellerby about her latest modern G&S show, Gilbert and Sullivan's Improbable New Musical....And Helen, about the accomplished, and even trailblazing, Victorian businesswoman, who was one of the four most important people in the Gilbert and Sullivan story, not least for her diplomatic skills in keeping the quarrelsome duo together creatively but also for forging their legacy into the twentieth century and beyond.  With songs aplenty, Thos and Sue talk about this delightful new show and its central character - Helen D'Oyly Carte! Unsung, no longer... 

Was the recent barnstorming London revival of the 1992 Gershwin Brothers show, Crazy For You, one of the best things to hit the West End in years?  Thos certainly thinks so and in this week's episode you can hear him and Josh talking about what made it so delightful.  Was it the phenomenal, vital writing of the George Gershwin? Was it the seamless dancing, singing and comic talents of Charlie Stemp? Was it the almost overwhelming sensory overload of music, dance and choreography in harmony?  The simple answer is yes, and the more detailed answer is awaiting your eager ears in this swonderful episode! Listening to this converstation is nice work (and yes, you've got it!). You'd be k-ra-zy to miss it.

Following the amazing success of their earlier show, War of the Worlds (On a Budget), Thos sits down again with Becky Owen-Fisher and Tom Fox, the creative minds behind Lamphouse Theatre, to discuss their latest comedy musical show, the five star 2024 Edfringe hit, Frankenstein (On a Budget).  Tackling everything from Mont Blanc-Gate to how you compose songs for a devised improvised show, via a yellow leotard, this conversation also explains how to get the lightness you also need the darkness. It's a monster mash-up!

In this episode of MusicalTalk, Nick sits down with the hilarious musical comedy duo Flo and Joan to chat about their latest show, One Man Musical. A riotous send-up of the grandiose world of musical theatre, this sharp and witty show takes aim at the tropes, clichés, and bombastic melodies of the genre—through the lens of one of its biggest icons, Andrew Lloyd Webber. Flo and Joan discuss how they crafted a show that both celebrates and playfully dissects the legendary composer's signature style, from over-the-top ballads to showstopping spectacle. Expect behind-the-scenes stories, a deep dive into their love-hate relationship with Lloyd Webber's work, and plenty of laughs along the way.

In this jam-packed episode of MusicalTalk, Hannah finally experiences Les Misérables live on stage—was it everything she dreamed of... or did she dream a dream in vain? Meanwhile, we dive into the world premiere of Scissorhandz, the bold new musical adaptation of Tim Burton's beloved film! And finally we break down all the big winners at the WhatsOnStage Awards 2025!

In this episode, Nick sits down with the brilliant Robert Gordon for an insightful and entertaining conversation. Together, they reflect on Robert's eventful 2024, delving into the highlights of the year, including his thoughts on the latest revival of Oliver! and the new musical of The Devil Wears Prada.  The conversation then takes a fascinating turn as Robert discusses the first-ever concept musical, Love Life. Recently brought to life by Opera North in Leeds, this groundbreaking piece of musical theatre history sparks a rich discussion about its relevance, impact, and timeless themes. Love Life is a landmark piece in the history of musical theatre, often considered the first "concept musical." It premiered on Broadway in 1948, featuring music by Kurt Weill and lyrics by Alan Jay Lerner. The show stands out for its innovative structure and thematic depth, offering a satirical exploration of the American Dream and the challenges of modern relationships.  See how it links to a classic Disneyland attraction... 

In this captivating episode of MusicalTalk, Nick and Hannah reflect on the theatrical and cinematic delights of 2024, including the dazzling movie adaptation of Wicked and the Robin Hood pantomime at the London Palladium. Then, they turn their attention to 2025, diving into the most anticipated productions on the horizon. Get ready for a deep dive into the mysterious and magical Coraline, as well as Disney's vibrant stage adaptation of Hercules. But that's not all—listeners also hear from MusicalTalk presenters and fans from the past as they share their own highlights and heartfelt stories from the year, making for a truly nostalgic and celebratory look back at 2024.

It's the end of 2024 and to wave it a fond farewell, Thos has again insolently presumed you might fancy a celebratory bumper-sized quiz episode. If he's accidentally correct, then this is the one for you - a suitably festive mix of musicals trivia deliciously flavoured with songs galore. Go on, ignore the turkey for a few minutes and pit your wits against everyone's least favourite quizmaster!  

Colm and Thos conclude the MusicalTalk in-depth review of the 2024 EdFringe by looking at three of the most diverse and different shows that you could have seen in Scotland this summer - Mary Mary Quite Contrary, a spoof musical about 1960s and 70s moral campaigner, Mary Whitehouse; Behind the Curtain, a hugely charming youth musical giving us a contemporary take on a 42nd Street-style story; and the hugely accomplished Wallis, the musicalisation of the Edward and Mrs Simpson story (perhaps better known as "Windsor and Walli's affair" to Follies fans!).  There's something for everyone in this insightful episode!

Join Nick and Hannah as they dive into the movie adaptation of Wicked! They share their thoughts on how it stacks up against the beloved stage production and debate the decision to release it in two parts. Then, they take a sharp turn into Neverland with a glittering review of Peter Pan by Tuckshop. This fabulous drag pantomime is playing every Monday night at London's Phoenix Theatre.  #WickedMovie #MusicalTheatre #WestEnd #DragPanto #PeterPan #PhoenixTheatre #Tuckshop #TheatreTalk #BroadwayToHollywood #MusicalPodcast

Four songs, three shows, two full EdFringe musicals on YouTube, one discussion but not quite yet a partridge in a pear tree.  Instead, Colm and Thos discuss a disturbing trend at the 2024 EdFringe relating to straw men and amoral behaviour, before turning their attention to three rather impressive new musicals - Crispr! The Gene Editing Musical, A Jaffa Cake the Musical and the Wellbrick Centre on Roswell Drive in an episode so delicious, you'll wonder why you don't eat it with a fork!  

Songs! Reviews! Insights! Exclamation Marks! All these things can be yours in this week's episode of MusicalTalk as we continue our in-depth look at some of the best musical theatre offerings from the 2024 Edinburgh Festival Fringe. In this punctuation-filled episode, Thos chats to Colm about some of the shows that caught their eyes (and ears) this year - including Reject Me Already, A Show About Tomorrow and the surprisingly moving (and funny) Fringe! The Musical!!

MusicalTalk continues its unrivalled analysis of some of the best of the 2024 EdFest musicals as Mike and Thos look at two very different shows linked by questions of status - A Jaffa Cake Musical and The Greatest Musical the World Has Ever Seen by Randy Thatcher.  Hear songs and discussion and find out if writing a show within constraints can actually be creatively freeing.  

Hoorah! It's time for MusicalTalk's annual in-depth delve into the wonderful world of EdFringe musical theatre, and this week Thos and Mike look at three hilarious, touching and intriguing musicals that you could have seen at this summer's Edinburgh Festival Fringe. Under the microscope this week are: The Emu War, the Wellbrick Centre on Roswell Drive and the return of the 2023 MusicalTalk Pick of the Fringe, the ever brilliant Potty the Plant.  With splendid songs from each of these cracking shows, this bumper episode will put a smile on your face and take you back the summer of 2024 at the world's largest arts festival.

In this insightful episode of MusicalTalk, Nick and Hannah gaze into the crystal ball of musical theatre to explore where the industry is heading. From emerging trends in storytelling and musical styles to the impact of rising ticket prices, they dissect the forces shaping the future of the stage. Will immersive experiences take centre stage? How might digital technology reshape audience engagement? And what do changes in pricing mean for accessibility? Join Nick and Hannah as they analyze these shifts and more, giving listeners a thought-provoking look at the next chapter for musical theatre lovers everywhere.

Stop the World! It's time for another edition of MusicalTalk!  And as Come From Away continues its successful national tour of both the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland, Josh and Thos sit down to discuss the recent London production, which clocked up over a thousand joyous performances and sent scores of people home with a smile on their faces.  What makes this show so successful - and are they the things that also make it so unusual?  Find out in this delightful and detailed episode.

With everyone's favourite, uplifting and joyous Canadian musical, Come From Away, on national tour, Thos chats to David Kingsmill about what makes this show so successful - and international - whilst retaining a distinctively Newfoundland flavour (and we don't mean when you kiss a fish). 

In this special episode, host Nick Hutson revisits an exclusive interview from the archives with the late Gavin Creel, recorded during his time starring as Bert in the West End production of Mary Poppins at the Prince Edward Theatre. With Gavin's recent and unexpected passing at the age of 48—an event that stunned the theatre industry—this interview offers a poignant look back at his incredible career. Gavin shares insights into playing Bert, his experiences in London, and his passion for musical theatre. Join Nick as we celebrate the life and legacy of this beloved Broadway and West End star.  

Josh and Thos are back with another look at two more shows that were part of the amazing 2024 summer of musicals in London: this time, both shows are linked by railway connections but with completely different styles and tone - Hadestown and Starlight Express.  How far do these shows rework their original source material of Orpheus and Eurydice and.....Cinderella? And how excited is Josh in seeing both these wonderful shows?  Time to let off steam!

It's been a summer of blockbuster musical theatre shows in London, and this week Josh and Thos take a close look at just two of the amazing productions on offer.  In this episode, it's time to concentrate on two shows named after significant female characters - with Cole Porter's Kiss Me Kate and Jerry Herman's Hello Dolly under the microscope.  Can the emancipated Lilly Vanessi escape comparisons with the ultimately subjugated Kate, and what is Dolly Levi's actual journey (apart from a trolleybus to Yonkers)?  And is that the ghost of Mary Poppins we can see floating overhead? It's Wunderbar! 

In this bumper episode of MusicalTalk, Nick and Hannah dive into the magic of Matilda the Musical, reflecting on its ongoing success at the Cambridge Theatre and exploring why it continues to captivate audiences of all ages. They also discuss Why Am I So Single – the brand-new musical from the creators of Six, Toby Marlow and Lucy Moss. Meanwhile, Nick and Robert discuss Barnum, the timeless circus-inspired musical, which recently had a run at the Watermill Theatre. Tune in for lively debates, musical insights, and a celebration of theatre old and new!

The Boys Are Back In Town!  With Rodgers and Hart's effervescent 1938 musical, The Boys from Syracuse packing 'em in at the Upstairs at the Gatehouse Theatre in Highgate, Thos and Benjamin Levy continue their wonderful conversation about the role of the Musical Director and how to orchestrate a classic-era show. But with Benjamin's view that "Lorenz Hart is an utter genius", this episode is filled to the brim with an in-depth look at the score and full analysis of what makes the Hart lyrics and the musicality of Rodgers work so beautifully together to make a show where every song is a polished diamond!

With Rodgers and Hart's sparkling 1938 Golden Age musical, The Boys From Syracuse, returning to London at the Upstairs at the Gatehouse Theatre in Highgate, Thos sits down for a wonderful conversation with the production's Musical Director and Orchestrator, the very talented Benjamin Levy.  Learn why it's important for the MD to "push hope through it" when musically directing a song, and why it's better to reorchestrate rather than reduce existing arrangements. And with in-depth analysis of the score throughout, you won't want to miss this delightful and insightful episode!  It's no cold potato!

Hoorah! Harooh!  The golden era of musical theatre returns to London with a revival of 1938's Rodgers and Hart's classic musical comedy, The Boys From Syracuse, opening at Upstairs at the Gatehouse, in Highgate in September 2024.  In a three part in-depth look at the show and its solid gold score by one of the greatest songwriting teams of the twentieth century, Thos sits down with the director and the musical director to enjoy insights into how to stage a classic musical in the 21st Century, and to talk about the sparkling songs.  This week Thos talks to the lovely Mark Giesser, the director of this production, about the attraction and challenges of the piece and why the songs are so perfect.  All it takes is a whole lotta Hart!

In this special episode of MusicalTalk, host Nick Hutson takes you behind the scenes with the National Youth Music Theatre (NYMT), a prestigious organisation that has been nurturing the talents of young performers for over four decades. Founded in 1976, the NYMT has a storied history of launching the careers of some of the UK's brightest stars in musical theatre. Nick sits down with current cast members of the NYMT on the exciting day of their world premiere performance of "Catastrophe Bay" at the Southwark Playhouse Elephant. We dive into the creative process and what it means to be part of such an iconic institution. We also hear from NYMT alumnus Josh Barnett, who reflects on his time with the company and how it shaped his career.

In this delightful episode of MusicalTalk, Hannah takes us on a magical ride through her recent experience of the UK tour of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang in Torquay... but how does it compare to the original production at The London Palladium? Nick, who saw the show in its West End heyday 22 years ago, joins the conversation with his nostalgic reflections. Together, they explore the differences and whether the modern take still has that "Truly Scrumptious" appeal. 

Welcome listeners! It's so nice to hace you back where you belong!  In this episode, Nick and Hannah dive into their first-ever experience of the classic musical, Hello Dolly, sharing their fresh and vibrant takes. But that's not all—Nick had the exclusive opportunity to attend an open rehearsal of the buzzworthy new musical, WHY AM I SO SINGLE?, brought to life by Lucy Moss and Toby Marlow, the brilliant minds behind the smash hit, Six. Get ready for an exciting journey as we bring you insightful interviews with the cast and writers, along with a sneak peek at some of the unforgettable songs from this promising new show. 

Nick and Hannah dive into the world of musical theatre, each sharing their unique experiences with two iconic shows. Hannah recounts her thrilling first-time experience of seeing the cult classic "Little Shop of Horrors" on stage during its UK tour.  Meanwhile, Nick takes a trip down memory lane as he revisits "Starlight Express" now playing at the Troubadour Theatre, experiencing the roller-skating extravaganza for the first time in over 30 years.   

It's the last episode of our three part look at the role of melodrama in musical theatre, and today Josh joins Thos to talk about the show that explicitly takes the tropes and characters of melodrama and turns them topsy-turvy - Gilbert and Sullivan's Ruddigore, and specifically a recent production at London's home of Victorian musicals, Wilton's Music Hall.  Your eyes will be fully open...

With the recent acclaimed revival of Sweeney Todd and the String of Pearls (subtitled "The Victorian Melodrama") in London's atmospheric Wilton's Music Hall, join Colm and Thos as they continue their exploration of the history of melodrama and how it informs modern musical theatre in a multitude of ways.  In this episode they dissect the original Sweeney Todd stage sensation to see how it works and then identify the many musical cannibals who have feasted on its body over the years - from Gilbert and Sullivan to Sondheim.  Todd, that's good!

Did melodrama die with Queen Victoria - or has it sneakily survived into 21st century culture?  Join Thos and Colm as they look at the unexpectedly wide scope of melodrama in musical theatre both historically and today: concentrating on the recent revival of Sweeney Todd and the String of Pearls at the Wiltons Music Hall in London, we take you on a three part journey exploring the he fascinating world of this far-from-dead genre - and tell you the tale of the other 3Bs of music - Balfe, Benedict and Bishop.

Moulin Rouge! The Musical - Hits and Misses  Join Nick and Hannah as they delve into the vibrant and glittering world of Moulin Rouge! The Musical. In this episode, our hosts discuss the highs and lows of this stage adaptation, starting with its lavish visual elements and captivating tangos that leave audiences spellbound. However, not everything that glitters is gold—Nick and Hannah critique the show's reliance on a plethora of pop songs, many of which feel outdated and detract from the overall experience. Hannah brings an intriguing comparison to the table, highlighting how the plot of Moulin Rouge!'s first act mirrors that of the film Burlesque, now also making waves on stage. Is this parallel a coincidence or a creative nod? Tune in to hear their thoughts and lively discussion. #MoulinRougeMusical #MusicalTheatre #Podcast #StageReview #MusicalTalk

Thos sits down to talk with award-winning bookwriter, lyricist, composer and playwright, Jenny Stafford, about her poignant one woman musical, Color Inside the Lines, which won Best Solo Show at the Denver Fringe and impressed at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe in 2021 and 2022.  With songs from the score and in-depth conversation about the creative process and the role of sincerity in narratives, you'll be delighted by Jenny's insights about what may be the only musical ever based around the work of a Scantron multiple-choice marking machine. 

In this week's episode, you can enjoy songs from Jingle Street, the five star hit musical from the 2023 EdFringe, and hear insights and observations from its writer, lyricist, producer, director, choreographer, assistant director and one of the lead actors on what it takes to create and develop a show for the Fringe and beyond, particularly as a new theatrical company.  And as a special bonus, there's a chance to hear an exclusive recording - a rather brilliant cut song from this wonderful musical show. You'll love it - we "pinky swear" it!

It's songs galore and laughs aplenty as Thos talks to the talented people behind Chordstruck Theatre about their hit shows, On Your Bike (Winner of the Best Musical at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe in 2021) and Jingle Street (Five Stars from MusicalTalk, EdFringe 2023).  It's a lovely, insightful and fun filled conversation about the collective creative process of making not just one, but two, musicals! As Felix, one of the characters in On Your Bike, might say "Winner Winner Chicken* Dinner"    (*falafel also available)

Join Thos as he talks with Shaye Poulton Richards, the talent behind the EdFringe success, Lies All The Way Down - a New Chamber Musical, a show that uses polyphonic sounds beyond the usual soundscape provided by a quartet to create the intense atmosphere needed for a pyschological thriller exploring the friend we make and the lies we tell. And hear songs and music from the show that help illustrate Shaye's creative process and her favoured combination of modern folk and contemporary classical sounds.

Wicked has been playing in the West End for over 15 years so Nick thought it was about time that Hannah sees the show - so they did.   With the film coming out next year it seems the right time to discuss the show, its legacy and - more importantly - what it's like seeing it nowadays with very little knowledge of it!  Does it live up to the hype?  Is it still wonderful or is it still just popular?  

Nick and Hannah discuss a myriad of musicals that they've seen in the last year including The Witches, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Matilda, Book of Mormon, Aladdin and more! 

In 2020 Coronavirus threatened to kill opera! By 2022, only one man could save it - using his one person production of La Serva Padrona - where baroque meets 1970s funk in a new English version of Pergolesi's 1733 comic masterpiece. Thos joins the extremely talented musical academic and performer, David William Hughes, to discuss the third of his historic music trilogy - a joyous and delightful version of La Serva Padrona - served up from "an emergency opera kit" saved over from the Cold War era!  It's a funkadelic relic!

Nick has a large collection of theatre programmes which acts as a wonderful topic generator! Nick digs through it to discuss, with Hannah, many shows from the past. Shows discussed include Let it Be, Forbidden Planet, Riverdance, Derren Brown, Saturday Night Ever, Mary Poppins, Rock Hamlet, Grand Hotel, Sweeney Todd and others!

What is musical theatre?  It's a big questions and Thos is asking it. Can a show be a musical without words? Can a show be a musical without music? Is there any point in actually trying to define what makes a musical anyway?  And as an illustration of how wide musical theatre can really be, Thos talks to the talented people behind five-star EdFringe show, The Wreck of the Queen Thomasina, which is a verse play with songs and definately plays with the form in a delicious way.  Vivat Regina!

Join Nick Hutson as he sits down with composer Alan Menken to discuss Hercule's current production in Hamburg, Germany.  Learn about the new songs, direction and history of the show.  You can also hear Alan talk about collaborating, processes and the legacy of the late Howard Ashman