Podcasts about marx

Leigh Claire La Berge, author of Marx for Cats, talks about political economy and the human–feline relationship. Then an interview with Michael Zweig, author of Class, Race, and Gender, on understanding capitalism in order to transform it.Behind the News, hosted by Doug Henwood, covers the worlds of economics and politics and their complex interactions, from the local to the global. Find the archive online. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week in BADLANDS saw the release of our episode on Thelma Todd, and it's got Jake traveling in the way-back machine. What's your JFK conspiracy theory? Can you recommend a movie by the Marx brothers, Laurel & Hardy, or Buster Keaton? How about your favorite murder mysteries or whodunits? Let Jake know at 617-906-6638 or on socials @disgracelandpod - and come join the Wrap Party. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Leigh Claire La Berge, author of Marx for Cats, on political economy and the human–feline relationship • Michael Zweig, author of Class, Race, and Gender, on understanding capitalism in order to transform it The post Cats and capitalism, understanding capitalism in order to fight it appeared first on KPFA.

Today's guest is Spencer Hilligoss.   Spencer Hilligoss is a passive investor who deployed 7-figures of his own capital into passive investments in the past 6 years. In 2019, Spencer retired from a 13-year tech career to fully focus on Madison Investing, his passive investing club.   Show summary: In this podcast episode, Spencer shares his personal journey from working in technology companies to retiring in 2019 to focus on his passive investing club. He emphasizes the need for clarity and vigilance in investing, advising investors to thoroughly vet teams and operators before investing. Spencer also provides advice on how to communicate with and motivate investors during challenging times, using two investor profiles as examples.   -------------------------------------------------------------- Intro (00:00:00) Spencer's background and retirement (00:01:26) Clarity and vigilance in passive investing (00:04:25) Twists and Turns in Investing Journey (00:14:05) Positioning for the Next 12 to 24 Months (00:16:10) Investing at the Wrong Time (00:19:19) Motivating Investors to Invest (00:20:06) Understanding Investor's Circumstances (00:20:41) Educating Towards Future State (00:21:16) -------------------------------------------------------------- Connect with Spencer:  Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shilligoss/   Web: www.madisoninvesting.com   Connect with Sam: I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/ Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com   SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f -------------------------------------------------------------- Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below: Spencer Hilligoss (00:00:00) - The goal setting process, like if there were to be. What is the most active part of being a passive investor? Because there are active parts. Right? And this is the misnomer. I think it is sitting down and just gut checking with the financials. What is your true north? Or I'll take out the platitude like what is your financial target you're aiming for? Just like if you're inside of a business, if you're going to use to work in the corporate world, anyone who's in a W2 world, if you manage a profit and loss, if you manage a financial plan, you got to go and sit there and say, hey, last year we thought the target like a win would be that dollar amount. Well, this year is looking a little different. So let's revise like what are where is our bearing here.   Sam Wilson (00:00:44) - Welcome to the how to scale commercial real estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor. We'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.   Sam Wilson (00:00:58) - Spencer. Helios is a passive investor who has deployed seven figures of his own capital into passive investments in the past six years. In 2019, he retired from a 13 year tech career to fully focus on Madison investing his passive investing club. If you don't know, Spencer also came back on the show. Gosh, what was that? Spencer episode 274 I think. So sometime early 2021. We've done about 600 episodes since the last time you were on the show, so it's a pleasure to have you back on the show today.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:01:26) - Yeah. Wow, that's a fast two years. Sam. Thank you for having me back on. Absolutely.   Sam Wilson (00:01:32) - The pleasure's mine, and it is a fast two years. Spencer, before we get into the heart of the show, though, there are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show. You have answered these previously, but we're going to have you answer them again in 90s or less. Can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there?   Spencer Hilligoss (00:01:48) - Oh yeah man, there's still fun questions.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:01:50) - Now I'm probably going to get a different lens on it though, as always, as life evolves. So where I am now actually, let's go back. I started growing up as a punk rock and metal kid playing in bands. My dad was a real estate broker for 30 years. I was working for him as a kid, which is why I ran screaming into technology companies. I live in Silicon Valley in the Bay area, California. I have, you know, grown up for 13 years professionally building and leading large operations and sales groups for fintech companies, financial tech companies. As you mentioned, Sam, I retired in 2019, five months before Covid, and that was not part of the plan, but I would say grateful now more than ever to be leading Madison Investing, which is our passive investing club, as you mentioned up front, where we help other folks walk the same path that we have. You know, I know that right before we hit record, I was sharing a quick story about highlight of the year so far.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:02:45) - We just got back from spending six weeks in Portugal as a whole family, that type of thing, that type of lifestyle decoupling from a geography, taking our kids who are six and nine and Jennifer and I are both living and working abroad with that flexibility. That's what's enabled by passive investing done right. And of course, it's not always like turnkey. Across the the journey. There's a lot of twists and turns. You got to pull out your figurative machete and hack through the the forest, as it were, and find clarity along the way. But hopefully I didn't exceed my 90s on that one.   Sam Wilson (00:03:17) - No, I think shoot, if you weren't, if you were, if you were over 90s, it was worth listening to. So I appreciate you giving us that. That recap yet again and again. If you didn't hear Spencer's first show, go back and check that one out, because I know we're going to cover some very different things. Maybe then what we covered there on that show. You know, I think one of the things and I'm not going to hopefully offend you here by saying this, but I feel like everyone has these grandiose ideas of what passive investing is.   Sam Wilson (00:03:44) - So they're like, oh, man, you know, we're going to be a passive investor and we're going to just cash checks all day long, and it's going to be amazing. But I think the experience is wildly different. I certainly know it has been for me, as I look at all the different passive investments I have, I go, okay, you know, there's some there doing well, some that are doing but not doing well, and then there's some that are performing very poorly. And I look at that and I go, gosh, that's that's it's kind of painful in some respects to look across all of them go, not everything's doing great. What would you say a current investors outlook and kind of mood should be about passive investing right now, because it doesn't always necessarily translate into six weeks in Portugal.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:04:25) - Oh my gosh, what a killer question to open with and for people listening. Sam didn't prep me for that question ahead of time. That's just a hell of a good question. Clarity and vigilance.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:04:36) - You know, I think clarity, first and foremost, it comes down to goals. And everyone out there hopefully is starting from that point. As a quick refresher, Sam, clarity to me means sitting down 2016. I'm working full time, deep into my career and climbing that ladder, making great W-2 income. Jennifer Morimoto, who is my my spouse, my wife, and my co-founder and, you know, co-pilot in life, you know, mother of our kids across the board. We work together in life and work. And we sat down and took a whole weekend to literally sit down and say while working full time, both of us in separate careers, what is the dollar amount per month that we could that we need to hit? Full passive. To cover our needs. And that was a scary exercise, man. That was a scary exercise. And it's something that I think I don't go into lightly, because that weekend had tears that we can had reconciliation and had laughter, and we had to get a sitter to get the kids out of the house just to do it right.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:05:37) - But that's where it started. We set that goal with a 15 year time horizon to remove all excuses. And so by clarity, what I mean is it sounds so clean and simple to say, I'm going to hit 8000 bucks in passive income, which I believe at that time was our monthly income, passive income target. And, you know, I'll qualify it by saying everyone has different expectations in life. Like, we don't want to we don't I don't need a jet. I'm a pretty simple dude. Like I got some guitars. I like plucking a guitar, but I don't need a boat and no judgments on those who want more. But that was our goal back then, and we hit that goal in the last about year and a half, two years ago, we hit that goal in full passive. And we're we're so proud of hitting that. That was hard. But we said 15 years on, the original goal came back shortly after that exercise in 2016 and said, well, that's just too long.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:06:29) - You know, you and I were chatting about our kids right before we hit record today, Sam. And I'll say that like, we wanted to catch some of the magic years, as it were, spending time with our boys while they were still pretty young, and being able to have that type of lifestyle where we could spend more time. And that is what got that clarity for me. So thanks for listening to that context. I just think it's so key for people to sit there instead of saying, man, look at that great looking Facebook paid ad that presents this two x equity multiple, right on a killer looking deal, a beautiful marketing deck. And you're like, that's my ticket to financial freedom. Be like, slow down, get clear. Get clear on why you're looking at this thing. And then don't worry about asset class yet. Come back to it later. Those are the lessons I wish I could impart on myself earlier on. One other thing I'll say is like 2023 for sure has presented some challenges, right? And you hit it earlier.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:07:19) - I'd say that things like understanding the basics of what is the purpose of this one investment, what's the goal for the money? Is it a growth play? If a person is working, like talk to one of our investors in our club who's actively investing with us, has for years, and he says, well, in 5 to 7 years I want to get X dollar amount. By fully passive, you know, 5 or 7 years out. And that's a very thoughtful, responsible goal for that investor. That's a cash flow investor who is making killer W-2 income at a day job, doesn't need it now, wants to have it later so they can still potentially afford to go and invest for growth. They don't need the cash flow now, but if that same investor puts a bunch of money, puts 100 K into a deal, and they have a pot distribution right now. And they're going to get great growth on the back end of that thing. But they don't have a distribution coming in now for a monthly income.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:08:13) - That's a mismatch. So I'll take a pause there. But just wanted to kind of cover at least the vigilance on the clarity.   Sam Wilson (00:08:18) - No I think that's great. I think that's really, really great. You touched on the term goal for the money, which I think is is a it's a powerful. It's a powerful idea because even though we have financial planners and we have people that lay out again all the, hey, you know, this is what you're going to have if you invest. And of course, we've all been through that drill with with our stockbrokers and everybody else where they show, you know, projected where it's going and what it's going to do. I think a lot of times we missed that same exercise. At least I have personally in my own and passive investments around the country in commercial real estate because it's like, oh, that's cool. Like you said, that's a cool deal, I like that. Why not? Let's throw 50 grand or 100 grand at it and see where it goes.   Sam Wilson (00:08:59) - Like, this is going to be fun. But then you look at it and you're like, wait, did that actually line up with what I wanted to do in 5 or 7 years? Because that requires discipline and time. It requires those weekends that you're talking about going, okay, you know, getting a spreadsheet of everything, or maybe it's even more complex than that. But if everything where it's going, what you're expected, payouts are getting them. I mean, that's hard work. I've got a sheet like that. It's hard work. Comparing zero eight. We got a distribution this month. Did it line up with what was pro forma? Which of these are doing what they say they're going to do. And that's that's just it becomes its own kind of animal that. I don't know. Speak to us on that front if you can.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:09:37) - Oh, man, I love this topic. I would say you're nailing it. And by the way, I'm so guilty of the same thing. You know, you see a great looking deal.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:09:45) - Or maybe you just love the team, like, like, oh, I love that operator. They have such a tight operation. Their reporting is killer. Their financial reporting is transparent. They have experience. They've got repeatable process. They've got the exits, full cycle deals, all the works. Right. And I'm like, oh cool, let's drop money. And then I'm like, well, that wasn't so much of a cash flow play. I mean, it reminds me of the very first property we bought is a duplex sitting in 45 minutes from our house, where I'm sitting right now in Vallejo, California, and that thing costs 430 grand. And that's a California property for you. We bought it years ago, cost us six figures. It's down payment and a cash flow is $200 a month. That is not a cash flow win by any measure. That's a quick way to use the player capital, right? But I bring that up as one example of like where we started to where we are now.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:10:35) - And I would say now actually we're going through a refresh of this very exercise. And it's related, I think, to what you brought up a moment ago, Sam, you know, the goal setting process, like if there were to be what is the most active part of being a passive investor? Because there are active parts, right? And this is the misnomer. I think it is sitting down and just gut checking with the financials. What is your true north? Or I'll take out the platitude like what is your financial target you're aiming for? Just like if you're inside of a business, if you're what I used to work in the corporate world, anyone who's in a W2 world, if you manage a profit and loss, if you manage a financial plan, you got to go and sit there and say, hey, last year we thought the target like a win would be that dollar amount. Well, this year is looking a little different. So let's revise like what are where is our bearing here.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:11:28) - And so we're going through that now to say well you got to track it in a spreadsheet. You've got to sit down and say what's the monthly income expected from this. Are we up? Are we down. How much do we need? Are we off track? Do we need to reserve some capital because our family is going to face some some headwinds or maybe tailwinds. Maybe there's good news coming in. You know, just got some unexpected great news on, like, an exit from a deal that is like a mobile home park refinance that's coming in. And I was like, wow, that's the first, I think, capital event that's occurred in 2023 personally. So like that was that was quite unexpected, you know. So I'm like, woo, that's great to see. And we'll see a lot more of that hopefully between 20 and 24 but most likely 2025. So it's tracking and knowing where you're at on that figurative map and sitting down and saying, let's put some financial assumptions behind it, like, what are we going to get out of this deal? Exits, cash flow.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:12:18) - What does take work? It takes some work, you know.   Sam Wilson (00:12:22) - It does take work. And I think it takes work. And it also, like you said, figuring out, you know, what your true north is in this and then and then picking the right opportunities that kind of make up that matrix of deals that you should or should not be investing in. So I think that's just knowing just knowing what it is you're looking for. And again, not being guilty of following my footsteps and just going, oh that's cool. Like I love the sponsor. I love the deal. I mean, why shouldn't we do it? Like, because maybe it doesn't fit the plan. I was having a call with a with a. Friend slash business guy here in Memphis yesterday. And he goes, he goes, Sam. He goes. My answer should be to, you know, he goes, it's no. Because for these two reasons he goes, but yet I just can't help but talk to you about it because this is really fascinating.   Sam Wilson (00:13:11) - So let's keep going. And I'm like, Bill, you know exactly what your answer should be. And I appreciated that. It was it was just a funny response. He's like, my answer should be no because I don't know anything about it and it doesn't fit my box, but I want to hear more like so anyway, we all.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:13:27) - Do it.   Sam Wilson (00:13:27) - We all do it, but we all do it. Yeah, we all do it. Not falling into that trap. So that's really cool. We've talked a little bit about defining temperament in our in our investments, being a tempered investor if you will, finding out goals for the money currently. Tell me tell me a little bit about this. Like what you said that there's two things. One, you said you've experienced some twists and turns in your investing journey. I think you said since 2019. So maybe if you can give us a couple examples of what those twists and turns are, and then tell us how you guys are positioning yourselves to really take advantage of the next 12 to 24 months.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:14:05) - Yeah. Happy to. So. Twists and turns first. Abbreviated version. I can define this in three quick phases. This is not how it felt. Real time. Of course. Life has crazy chapters. You don't know where you're at on the map sometimes until you come out the other side of it, right? So phase one still working full time. This is back in about 2016. We bought that rental that pricey for 30 K rental. I just told you about California and we're like, wow, we're going to run out of money real quick this way. Not in line with our cash flow goals. We then got more comfortable to really took our time and looked at more rentals. Still didn't hadn't quite moved on beyond that rental phase. And rentals are fine. They're a great wealth builder, but. They are semi passive at best. Right and I will happy to debate anyone on that topic. Anyone who's owned rentals can attest to that, property manager or not. They're semi passive. So we got up to five long distance rentals and they were out in Kansas City, Kansas City, Missouri and 60 K average purchase price 250 bucks a month.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:15:08) - Average cash flow. That's a heck of a lot better economics than the first one. Those were maybe, at best, C-minus neighborhood. Um, you don't really learn what that means till you do it.   Sam Wilson (00:15:21) - Right?   Spencer Hilligoss (00:15:22) - And, you know, you get you get it. So we learned that way in terms of overhead, you know. That was more work than we expected it to be. Even with property managers, the economics got a little bit kicked every year because the tenants would beat up the place a little bit, and then we had turnover costs, etcetera. So we sold those properties, and then eventually we started investing as passive investors purely as LPs and some multifamily deals. And we're talking in Alabama and in Texas and a few other great markets, eventually multifamily self-storage. And those twists and turns initially, I would say were super important. You know, like a little expensive. You pay tuition with experience and scars. You also pay it with physical capital. And I would just say that those those were not, in hindsight, ideal if you're trying to maximize return, but they were necessary for us to get to where we are now.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:16:10) - And so I look at those also, once we started investing as LPs, got some killer exits from those. This is around the 2018, 20, 2019. And then we're like, well. There's so many colleagues and so many folks in my network that were saying, Spencer, like, we don't want to fly out to these properties like, you're, you know, this stuff. They're saying this to me like, you know, this stuff, you're flying out of these assets, you're walking them. You want you know, how to underwrite them. All this stuff. And I'd work so hard to get there to do that. Why don't you? What? You help us, you know? And so then we started medicine investing around that time. And it's just the club dynamic of being an educator and a resource for folks to see who who are these teams we invest in. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's always clear. It doesn't mean it's always easy. You know, like like taking the time to get to know partners and operators is it is art and science.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:17:05) - You know, it's, you know, vetting teams and humans is always going to be that way. And so I would say those were some of the whiz bang version of like the twists and turns along the way that brought us to where we are now. Um, I'd say that looking forward to your second question, though, right now is a unique time. You know, I think before this journey over the past seven years, you know, coming out of a tech career, Sam, like, I wouldn't have known how to take in the feedback and the mentorship that we hear, the wisdom that we hear when it comes to when's a great time to invest? Like when do the wealthy people, the wealthiest of the wealthy, the Warren Buffett's like, when do they make the biggest returns? When do they maximize their wealth building? And I wouldn't have understood. Like, you got to go out there and take informed risks during challenging volatility times, during economic headwind times. And that is why right now we're walking into a killer buying opportunity.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:18:02) - We're walking into a killer investing landscape. And it's it's the tough part for every investor is to look through the noise. There's a ton of very real noise occurring right now in the headlines, of course, globally and nationally. But I would say take what you need from the news, but then look past. It has best you can, you know. And so we see opportunities to buy and invest at the asset classes that we love. Multifamily large apartment communities largely in the Sunbelt. With some of the Rockies still love self-storage. We've been focusing on self-storage now since 2019 as a sister asset class, along with multifamily and a couple of other niche non-real estate asset classes. But I would say that that's really what it's about is just being vigilant about not pouncing on a deal is because it looks like it's great from a team that we know you got to go do it deeper. And clearly I have to say this as well. One last thing is just like the interest rate has to be the debt, the loan, the loan structure has to make sense in the current climate.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:19:04) - It has to be either in a suitable loan. You know, there's a lot of that going on on the few deals there are, or it has to be some kind of unique situation where the seller is distressed and you're getting a very significant discount, but tough to find those.   Sam Wilson (00:19:19) - It really is. But those are those are things. And I like your, your you seem to be a more patient investor maybe than what some of the, some of the, you know, fury that's been out there in the last couple of years, you seem to take more time in what it is that you're investing in. And I think you're right here in the next couple of years, we're going to see we're going to see some great opportunities come down the pipe. But I guess here's a question for you. Most investors, the book, Howard Marks wrote the book, Mastering the Market Cycle. And in that he basically says that historically, investors invest at the completely wrong time. Like if you just take the data and you overlay it with the economic profile, he goes, they're always investing at the top and selling at the bottom.   Sam Wilson (00:20:06) - He goes just right the way they do it. So how do you in the times of how do you I mean, I'll get to my question, but how do you communicate to your investors and then motivate them to invest at the times when it's like when everybody else is out yelling, run! You know, there's blood on the street, everybody's going to die and you're going to go, hey, man, you know, actually, right now is the perfect time to buy this distressed asset. You communicate that in such a way that it then compels your investors to invest.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:20:41) - Yeah. Gosh, that's a fun topic, man. I love the reference for the Marx book. I think understanding the posture as like as a passive investor myself, you know, as a passive investor yourself as well, it comes down to understanding fundamentally that like motivation to invest in motivation to act is is probably the incorrect way to look at it. It's really like, does a person understand squarely where they are? If you're trying to educate like they understand, this is probably going to lead back to a goals comment.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:21:16) - But I would say that it starts with just holding up the figurative mirror and saying, here's where I'm at. You know, here's an investor's circumstances. And if they are comfortable where they are, you're really not going be able to prompt action and you don't want to. I'm not interested in trying to compel someone to go and invest in something that is not fit for their portfolio or fit for their their goals. I think really what it comes down to is helping them understand the future state, understanding the future state. What I mean by that is where is the life they want to be, right? Like in three years, five years, seven years, whatever that time horizon could be. And if that means, you know, let's take two profiles. I'll just keep them anonymous and kind of abstracted here. But like profile one most common one, I would say a fellow investors that we work and invest alongside with W-2 employees, at least one significant W-2 income coming into the household likely to if they're in California.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:22:10) - Absolutely to because it's just too expensive here to have one usually. So they're sitting there going, I don't necessarily need to quit my job right now. That profile of dual income with kids, California or West Coast pricing market, they're thinking in maybe five, seven, maybe ten years. Then we want to have some optionality, because perhaps they're aging out of the tech career because ageism is a thing, and eventually they want to have some kind of safety net. So they have to think about these goals. And so educating toward that future state absolutely is the most important thing. And then connecting the dots backwards from that, like reverse engineering where do they want to be. Similarly, it's going to sound familiar, probably to where Jennifer and I were at, you know, years ago. It's like where we where were we when we started holding up that figurative mirror? Looking across, auditing our income sources, auditing our wealth, picture all that stuff, and then setting a real clear, crystal clear vision of like, well, where do we want to be? You know, what kind of lifestyle do we want to have? What kind of options do we want to have? That all applies for people who are working, and they have to work currently for their income profile.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:23:17) - Two high net worth folks, folks who, you know, maybe they exited a business that they built. Maybe they own a company actively, but they're taking more of a backseat while the next generation takes it over. You know, all that profile of so many different high net worth folks out there. But I would say that is more of a discussion of hedging downside risk in a discussion of capital preservation and understanding, like, yeah, I absolutely agree. It's a unique time when you're looking over there at the treasuries and you're saying, wow, that looks like a super safe 5%. Well, what percentage of their portfolio are they trying to allocate toward that? And also, is it really 5% that they want or are they looking at that 5% a little bit too myopically. Are they are they overanalyzing and just using that as their, their, their Uber excuse for analysis paralysis because they just don't want to go and do the mental work across the market right now to think, oh, there are excellent deals that can produce double, triple plus whatever you're getting on a treasury, you know.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:24:17) - So not getting probably getting a little too nerdy here probably for that one Sam. But that's a fun question.   Sam Wilson (00:24:22) - That's awesome Spencer, thank you for taking the time to break. Break that down. And a like I like the the the the phrase you said educating to that future state. And again I probably misused the words not motivate or compel. But it's one of those things. How do you get people off the fence. Yeah.   Sam Wilson (00:24:37) - Yeah yeah.   Sam Wilson (00:24:38) - And it's and it's and that's because again, we don't want people investing. And I've told people that I've told people before I said, no, this just isn't for you like this. This deal is not for you. So please don't invest. Yeah. You can just sense it. But, you know, I do think it is important, though, to see people when they're stuck in that analysis paralysis going, oh my gosh. Like I'm just going to sit here because everything looks so scary. And I think you've you've made some really valid points there on that that I won't rehash and kill it because you did.   Sam Wilson (00:25:04) - You did a great job really explaining that. So thank you again for taking the time here to come back on the show today. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you back on. If our listeners want to get in touch with you and learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?   Spencer Hilligoss (00:25:17) - Yeah. No thank you, Sam, this has been awesome to reconnect. So Madison Investing.com, that's our website and folks can find some educational content there. We put up there monthly. They can also set up time to chat with me. Happy to be a sounding board on their passive investing strategy.   Sam Wilson (00:25:31) - Fantastic. Madison Investing.com. We'll put that there in the show, notes. Spencer. Thank you again for taking the time to come on the show today.   Sam Wilson (00:25:38) - I do appreciate it.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:25:39) - Yeah. Thank you Sam, really great to see you.   Sam Wilson (00:25:41) - Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast. If you can do me a.   Sam Wilson (00:25:46) - Favor.   Sam Wilson (00:25:46) - And subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen.   Sam Wilson (00:25:54) - If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.

Die aktuelle linke Theorieproduktion ist unbefriedigend und blöde, vor allem im englischsprachigen Bereich werden seit Jahren Bücher auf den Markt geworfen, die aus einem halbgaren Gedanken bestehen, der aber auf 300 Seiten ausgewalzt wird. Und so ist es auch zu erklären, dass die aktuellen Debatten über Planwirtschaft an Intelligenzproblemen leiden. Vor allem zwei Bücher sind dafür verantwortlich: „People's Repubic of Walmart“ und „Fully Automated Luxury Communism“ – verfasst von Autoren, die zu den hippen Linken zählen, aber offenbar Marx nie gelesen haben. Die Thesen klingen reizvoll: Walmart funktioniert eigentlich wie eine sozialistische Volksrepublik, lautet die eine. Die andere besagt: Ein vollautomatischer Kommunismus kommt bald. In der neuen Folge von „Wohlstand für Alle“ besprechen Ole Nymoen und Wolfgang M. Schmitt diese Thesen. Literatur: Aaron Bastani: Fully Automated Luxury Communism. A Manifesto, Verso. Leigh Phillips, Michal Rozworski: People's Republic of Walmart. How the World's Biggest Corporations are Laying the Foundation for Socialism, Verso. Ihr könnt uns unterstützen - herzlichen Dank! Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/oleundwolfgang Steady: https://steadyhq.com/de/oleundwolfgang/about Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/oleundwolfgang Konto: Wolfgang M. Schmitt, Ole Nymoen Betreff: Wohlstand fuer Alle IBAN: DE67 5745 0120 0130 7996 12 BIC: MALADE51NWD Social Media: Instagram: Unser gemeinsamer Kanal: https://www.instagram.com/oleundwolfgang/ Ole: https://www.instagram.com/ole.nymoen/ Wolfgang: https://www.instagram.com/wolfgangmschmitt/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@oleundwolfgang Twitter: Unser gemeinsamer Kanal: https://twitter.com/OleUndWolfgang Ole: twitter.com/nymoen_ole Wolfgang: twitter.com/SchmittJunior Die gesamte WfA-Literaturliste: https://wohlstand-fuer-alle.netlify.app

Welcome to our YEAR 5 in review episode. We make one big announcement and then talk about all the really cool stuff that happened this year and all the really cool stuff that is on the horizon. Support the show

Dr. Robert E. Marx received his DDS degree from Northwestern University in 1971. In 1977, he earned a Certificate in Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery from the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, where he is presently a professor of surgery and Chief of the Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Division. Dr. Marx spent 13 years as an active duty officer in the United States Air Force, and later served in Operation Desert Storm. A noted researcher and lecturer, he is credited with pioneering platelet-rich plasma growth factors and the application of recombinant human bone morphogenetic protein, as well as developing the accepted protocol of hyperbaric oxygen to enhance healing in radiated tissue. Dr. Marx's professional awards include the W. Harry Archer Award, the William J. Gies Award, the Paul Bert Award, and the Donald B. Osbon Award. In addition to numerous textbooks and academic publications, he is also the author of the novel Deadly Prescription.

If you missed the first episode with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipant and founder Josh Herzig-Marks of Knect, you can go here first (https://www.giantrobots.fm/incubators3e1josh) to catch up. A key focus of Josh's second episode is the importance of user research and customer discovery. Josh stresses that talking to users is crucial, as it grounds the development process in reality. thoughtbot's Director of Product Strategy, Jordyn Bonds, adds that direct engagement with users builds empathy and understanding within the team, making it more effective. They also discuss the challenges of identifying a product's target audience and the importance of iterative customer feedback. Josh and Jordyn highlight the need for founders to be resilient and open to feedback, even when it's negative. Transcript: JOSH: We're live. DAWN: Welcome. Thanks, everyone, for joining. I'm Dawn. I am going to be emceeing today, facilitating, really just asking questions and letting these great people talk. Filling in for Lindsey, who is usually here. Thanks for being here. We're excited to talk to everyone and hear your comments and questions. You might be familiar with thoughtbot. We're a product design and development consultancy. And we like to help people make products or make products better. We are currently in our third incubator session. And today, we're talking to one of two founding teams. And in case you aren't familiar with the incubator, it's an eight-week program that we run with founders. We pair founders up with a product quad from thoughtbot. And we undergo market research, customer discovery, basically market and product validation exercises to help us hone in on a solution, a potential solution for the problem that we're trying to solve, and build a product plan with the founder, basically set them off on a path for success, hopefully, and next steps. Do you want to kick us off, Jordyn? JORDYN: Yes. DAWN: Tell the people about yourself. JORDYN: I'm Jordyn. I'm the Director of Product Strategy on Dawn's team. Dawn is my boss. And I sort of run the incubator. I have also founded two startups and been the first head of product at two others, so four early-stage startups. JOSH: I'm Josh. I am the founder part of this who is working with the thoughtbot incubator. I founded a startup. I wasn't very good at it. I was very lucky at it. I was head of product at a whole series of other startups. And I enjoy that a lot. A few folks have asked me why I wanted to join the thoughtbot incubator if I've done this before. I'm, like, moderately techie for a non-technical person. And I coach other founders in doing the sorts of things that Jordyn and her team are coaching me on. So, I'm doing this thing for a few reasons. One is being a founder is really, really lonely. But the other one is that there's just a huge value in bringing together the diverse set of perspectives. And we're doing that with a company that's really good at getting complicated things out the door, having them be successful through a focus on who the end user is. It kind of felt like a no-brainer because I felt like—and we talked about this last week—I had the Josh problem that I wanted there to be a solution to. And trying to figure out, is there a larger opportunity that this represents? DAWN: Thanks. Well, you cued us up well for the topic, at least that we're going to start with today, which is user research or customer discovery. I think it probably goes by several names. That's another interesting topic we [laughs] could get into. But what is this user research that you're doing? Why is it important? What's it doing for this team at this stage? JOSH: One of the founders I work with asked me a couple of months ago, "Just remind me again, what are the things I have to do to build a product?" And I'm like, "It's actually really easy," right? My, like, standing on one foot advice is talk to users, mostly customers. Bring your engineers along when you can. And if you do those things, mostly everything will work out. But I think it's actually, like, there's some subtlety in all of those things, right? It's not that talking to users or customers is going to solve all of your problems. It's just that you're not going to make any progress in the absence of doing that, right? Because then you're just talking to yourself. And I don't know about everybody else here in this group or who might be listening, but it's really easy to get yourself all spun up inside of your head if you're only talking to yourself. Users are the ones who ground you, right? And ultimately, users are the ones who could turn to customers. So, why customers, right? As the people you really want to be talking to. Now, we don't have any customers yet, so we can't do that. But you know something about customers more than anybody else, and that's they're willing to pay for the thing, for the problem you're trying to solve. They could be paying in money. They could be paying in time. They could be paying in reputation. Oftentimes, they'll be paying in all three of those things or two out of three of those things. But they have an expressed willingness to pay. And that's really the magic of, like, having a product and having those conversations. Now, why do you bring along your engineers? It's because the most effective tech companies...and I think thoughtbot is maybe unusual in design-build firms in really internalizing this, but the most successful tech companies are the ones where the entire organization is aligned around understanding who is our market? Who is our customer? What is their problem, and what does it take to solve that problem for them? And too often, all that stuff is, like, stuck inside of the founder's head, or the sales team's head, or the marketing team's head, or the product manager's head, or little bits of stories are stuck other places. But when we're all listening to the same conversations, that's when it's most effective to build alignment around who's the customer? What are their needs? What would they pay for? JORDYN: I agree. And I would add some detail there that why does it work like that? How does having everyone at the organization talk to users and customers build that alignment? And it's one of those things that's kind of, like, it has to be seen to be believed in a certain way. But, like, you can break it down. You know, we can all sit in a room and argue about what reality looks like out there. But it's a lot more efficient if we're all living in that reality together. There's a lot less bringing everyone along. If you've got skeptics on your team, and I hope that you do because they're very useful people, they want to hear it from the source. So, great, go have them hear it from the source. And there's nothing that's more motivating as an engineer, having been an engineer, than seeing someone live fail to achieve their goal in the piece of software you're working on. You will turn around and go fix that bug right then. A bug that has maybe been sitting at the top of the backlog for, like, six weeks or six months, when you see someone struggling with it [laughs] in action, you'll be like, oh, I see. Okay, this is actually causing a lot of angst out there, and I... So, anyway, building that empathy, it's always easiest to build it directly. And it's harder if I am here and if I'm having to triangulate empathy through someone else. Like, if only one person on your team is talking to users and listening to users, and then they come back to the team, and they're like, "Here's what I'm hearing," maybe the team believes you. Maybe they hear the same things out of your mouth that they would have heard directly out of the user, but probably not [laughs]. So, it sounds less efficient. People resist it because it feels intuitively, I think, to a lot of people like a waste of time to have engineers doing user interviews or having anyone else. There's a lot of pushback at organizations for doing this for different reasons. If you're doing, like, an enterprise SaaS thing, sales might really not want anyone else talking to customers because they worry it's going to erode that relationship that they feel like they have. Nothing could be further from the truth in my experience. Customers feel valued. The more people on your team they talk to, the more they are listened to, the more they are taken seriously, and, like, have people engaging with them, that only bolsters your relationship with them, not the opposite. But either way, it's just much more efficient when everyone is hearing the thing from the people it's impacting directly. I get that that does not intuitively feel true, but I assure you that it is true. DAWN: So, -- JOSH: And even more so at this stage where our experience as designers or engineers is much less important than our experience as team members who are trying to find who is that initial audience going to be who is so motivated they will let us build a product for them? DAWN: That's exactly what my follow-up question was related to, which is there's this sort of perception that you sort of stay in your lane, right? With the different roles that you occupy [laughs] in an organization, whether it's early stage or later stage. And even for people who are participating in that customer discovery, you kind of want to, like, ask questions that are most relevant to your role. So, how do you, like, prepare teams or, you know, offer guidance to teams to help them sort of get into the right mindset going into those conversations, not so that they execute it perfectly because they have to have some UX design background, but so that you can learn the important things? JOSH: I think it is totally natural for someone to feel unprepared coming into these, but that's okay, right? Their job is to develop this as a skill, and the only way they're going to do that is by actually doing it. I am certain there were people on the thoughtbot team who felt uncomfortable doing this for the first time, talking to somebody who wasn't even a user, a rando who Josh found on the internet who was willing to chat and go talk to them. And I know they got better at it because I get to watch everybody's interview recordings, and I get to watch the notes they're taking. And I get to watch my own. And we have, like, a team of five of us who, like, are all getting better at this, and that's good. These things are skills, and you got to practice them, which, putting on my friends of thoughtbot hat, is, I think, one of the reasons why thoughtbot likes to do these things because it's a chance to develop these skills in a really intense way, which we may not otherwise get to. And it's a thing that, you know, as a founder, I want everybody on my team to be getting good at as quickly as possible. So, sure, prep work. You read a book. It's like baking a cake, right? You know, you can read cookbooks. You can walk up and down the aisle at the supermarket, right? You can go to the bakery and try other people's cakes, but until your arms are deep in flour, butter, and sugar, like, you've no idea what you're really talking about. And I just want to get people making a mess in the kitchen as fast as possible. Nothing bad happens if you have a bad interview. Lots of bad things happen if you never interview. That's my very strong opinion. JORDYN: I share the opinion and its intensity. That is exactly how I would have answered. JOSH: [laughs] JORDYN: There's no substitute for doing the thing. And you can spend your whole life feeling like you're not ready to do the thing. You're not going to learn and get better at it until you just start doing it. It's like...and, Josh, you are right. That is partly what this incubator is for, both internally and externally. One of the main differentiators of what we're doing here with this incubator from other incubator programs out there is we get into the kitchen with you and get our arms and elbow deep in flour with you so that we can help founders, not necessarily Josh who has brought some skills into this with him, but, like, so that you know what it feels like to do the thing. There's a lot of content out there about how to start a company, how to do customer discovery, all this stuff, and you can read all of that stuff. You can also listen to people talk about it all the livelong day. There are tons of people out there who do this all the time. They are on podcasts. They are here on this live stream. That's cool [laughs]. Like, listen to them. But really, there's no substitute for you getting out there and talking to people. And this, I just cannot stress this, like, so many people...given my role here and what I do, people often bring their startup ideas to me. People at thoughtbot, people outside of thoughtbot they say, "I have this idea." I ask, "Who is it for?" They tell me. I say, "Have you talked to those people?" and they say, "I'm not ready to start talking to people yet." And I'm like, "That is incorrect. You're talking to me. The only way you're going to get to a thing is if you start talking to people, like, yesterday." And they resist. "Well, I still need to figure out." And I'm like, "No, you don't need [laughs] to figure anything out." If you're going to build something for someone, go engage with them, learn what their life is like, what their work is like today. Hello, people listening to this, do this today. JOSH: Jordyn talks a lot about the emotional labor of being a founder, and I think it's really important. Like, hey, founders out there who hear this and they feel a bit overwhelmed, that's okay, right? The thing which you're going to learn how to do as a founder is talk to people about the thing you're trying to do and have people give you feedback you don't like, and it's not fun. You know, I work with a lot of very technical founders, and it's amazing the things people will do to avoid that. They will take their savings, their retirement money out of the bank and plow it into design-build firms. They will quit their jobs to build this thing themselves just to avoid having that potentially unpleasant conversation. So, potential founders, if you want to prepare yourself for being a successful founder or even a mediocre founder, the thing which you need to do is [laughs] improve your frustration tolerance. Get really good at people telling you your idea is bad, or your process is bad, or something else is bad. And maybe they're right, and maybe they're wrong, and it doesn't matter. But you got to be able to tolerate that. JORDYN: Yes, you have to be able to tolerate that. And you have to be able to actually, like, listen for the relevant feedback that's buried in there. So, the founder Josh just described was me, P.S. JOSH: [laughs] JORDYN: The first time. JOSH: Not just you. JORDYN: And not just me, not merely me, but it was me. You know, technical background definitely plowed my meager savings—because I'd already been working in startups, which does not pay well, newsflash [laughs]. I don't know if any of you know this; they don't pay well—into a product that I hadn't really spoken to very many people about. But I knew that I needed to start talking about it with people, but I didn't know how to do that well. That's okay. So, I started talking to people about it after the fact. I should have done this sooner. That's cool. My first company was this product called TallyLab. Like, you can think of it like a data diary app. Basically, it's a place you can go and collect small data to kind of figure out, like, if you think you have a food allergy. Think of it like a food allergy notebook but a digital app for it. I think that when the moon is full, and I eat over a pint of strawberries, I get a stomach ache, whatever it is. So, you need to track the cycles of the moon and how much strawberries you ate and when, and then you can do this analysis. Anyway, if you're thinking to yourself, that doesn't sound like a business, you are correct. Anyway [laughs], I was describing this to my friend's dad. My friend had just had her first kid. I was over meeting this baby. Her dad was there. And he was just like, "What do you do?" And I was like, "Oh, I have a startup." He's like, "What's your startup do?" And I told him. And he was like, "Sounds like you're just feeding people's OCD to me." Like, I felt physical pain at that reaction to this. Like, he was like not only...his tone was so derisive [laughs]. But, like, there was information for me in that. First of all, I needed to think about who is this guy. Where is he coming from? Does this have anything to do with his life at all? Should I even listen to this? In fact, maybe he's, like, my anti-ideal customer. And this feedback is great for me because it means my ideal customer is a good fit, whatever. There's information in there, right? But this was some of the first feedback I was getting on this from someone in the wild [laughs]. So, I had to dig that dagger right out of my heart. So, it's going to happen. It's going to happen, but you got to, like, steel yourself for it, like Josh says. And you also find a way to respond to it with curiosity. So, if I could go back in time to that conversation...I just changed the subject immediately, I think, at the time. I was like, "Cool. Let's talk about something else [laughs]." What I should have done is been like, "Tell me more. Why does it strike you like that? Tell me more about this problem in your life," right? That was an opportunity for me to have a customer interview, and I just totally whiffed it [laughs]. DAWN: Hopefully, it didn't harm your relationship with your friend [laughs]. JORDYN: Not at all. Not at all. I think she felt somewhat aghast. She was like, "Dad, lay off." [laughs] JOSH: Which is actually the other lesson to take from this, which is these things all feel really important and personal and, like, present to you as the founder. Nobody else gives a shit. JORDYN: No. And this was a lesson for me. I at least didn't have that problem because I had been in a series of touring rock bands, and I had learned over and over again how little anything I was doing mattered to anyone. Like, you know, you get to the point where, like, you walk offstage, and you're like, "That was the worst set we ever played." No one knows that. No one cares. They were, like, talking to their girlfriend at the bar the whole time, like, whatever, man [laughs]. Like, whatever is going on with you, you as a human are maybe this big in their purview. What you're doing professionally is even smaller. So, like, don't sweat it. They're not going to be thinking about it again, ever [laughs]. DAWN: That's the thing. Maybe your startup idea doesn't matter, but you matter. Everyone here matters. Okay? JORDYN: Yes. DAWN: So, I want to go back to the users or the particular customers in this case. Have there been any surprises? Have there been any daggers out there or any delights? What have you been learning? JOSH: Last time we were speaking, we were basically talking to a convenient sample of people who, let's be honest, look a lot like Jordyn and myself, right? They are people in mostly U.S. tech companies, mostly early-stage ones, not necessarily programmers, but maybe they found the company. Maybe they work in product management, or they have other kinds of executive roles. Maybe they change their job every couple of years because that's what people in tech companies do. Maybe they like, you know, they carry around a smartphone. They live out of their smartphone. They care about building a network. They attend in-person things when they can. They're in a bunch of, like, networking Slacks, and WhatsApp groups, and things like that. And they all kind of look the same. And I think the last time we spoke two weeks ago, we were noticing that this thing we were trying to work on was a problem for all of them but not necessarily a problem that they were, on average, investing a whole lot of time and energy into. We recognized this as a group largely because everybody was participating in the conversations and getting better and better at it and getting better and better at kind of, like, pulling out the insights. So, we experimented with a couple of other audiences. And the reminder here is the idea isn't to build a product for one of these audiences; the idea is to build the first version of the product for one of these audiences who feels the need so intensely they're actually going to use the damn thing and give you some feedback. So, the audience has to have a real pain–a willingness to do some work. And we have to be able to find them, so some attribute that allows us to identify where they are. They all hang out at the playground after recess is, like, a good attribute, or they all search for the same kinds of things using the same language or a comparable language on Google, or they all follow the same people on TikTok. They are all examples of audiences that we could somehow identify and address. People who, you know, deep down, are worried that their second-grade teacher didn't like them enough, right? Probably not an addressable audience, even though you can imagine, you know, all sorts of potential problems and potential solutions you can build for those folks. So, we got to find that. So, we've experimented with a few other groups. One is we identified early on in kind of our broader conversations that journalists might have a need for this, journalists or folks that have a broad network, and they check in with those people frequently. And the other one was people who do Biz Dev, or partnerships work at tech companies as well. And we reached out to a bunch of people. And we discovered that both those groups are probably also a little bit too big for us to be focused on. It's not that nobody in those groups had a burning need for the thing that we're trying to do; it's that people in those groups overall didn't. And now we got to go figure out, like, okay, is there, like, a subgroup inside of there that we can identify? Just sports journalists, just investigative journalists, just journalists who don't have a salary who work freelance, just radio journalists, you know, just journalists who went to specific schools. Hard to know what that's going to be, and that's the work that we're doing, like, literally right now. JORDYN: We actually published our methodology for doing this recently. People should go to thoughtbot.com and look at our Playbook, our Customer Discovery Playbook, if you want to know how to do this. It is not black magic or something. Basically, you just think about the dynamics that matter that create a need for the thing that you're contemplating building, and then you just generate giant lists of the people who might need that thing. And guess what? It's going to be totally wrong and weird, and a bunch of different shaped groups of people. It is going to be like people who hang out at the playground and also dog walkers, and just, like, some weird random assortment of personas, individuals, groups of people, but that's where you start. And then you start learning. You take what you know about those people today, and you find the best place to start. And then you start talking to them, and then you learn why they are or are not a good fit, and you keep going through the list. So, it's not mysterious, but it is work. It is hard work. Synthesizing on a team what you're hearing is part of that hard work, but it's really invaluable because everybody, like Josh mentioned earlier, brings something different to the conversation, thinks about it from a different vantage, brings different life experiences. And that is just invaluable to unlocking insights, perspectives, directions to pursue. It really is very much a...I don't know what we would call it. It's like a real...it's the hard work. You go talk to a bunch of people. You get together as a group, and you talk to each other about what you're hearing from all the other people [laughs]. You go back and talk to more people or the same people if you realized you weren't asking them the things that you needed to be asking them. You come back together. And out of that process, the patterns emerge. DAWN: This is also kind of meta, the fact that y'all are doing so much customer discovery with potential customers who their entire work lives [laughs] are managing conversations, both the frequency and timing of that, but also, like, what they're learning from those conversations. So, that's super interesting. It sounds like, obviously, there are still many conversations to be had. But what else is next? I know we're about halfway through the program. So, what are y'all looking into for the next week or two? JOSH: I mean, we don't yet have that audience, which is, I think, a really important part of this and something which I think about all the time as the founder. What does this mean that it's hard to find the audience? Like, what does that tell about the idea, about the opportunity? But I think we've had enough conversations with enough people who have enough similarities in the problems we're trying to solve that I think we're getting good insights into if we knew who would really want this thing; we have some good ideas about how we might be able to help them out. So, we're starting to actually go through the process of, you know, the really early sketches, the wireframes. And what might a solution look like? Which I think is doing two things, right? One, it helps us to sharpen our thinking a fair amount, right? There's, like, a thing which we can react to as a group, which is not as amorphous as an interview. Like, a sharp, pointy thing we can react to. The second is we're going to start showing this to people. And not everybody we talk to is going to be, like, our final audience we're building for. That's okay. They can still, like, give us thoughts and give us feedback. And it'll probably change the tenor of the conversations we're having with them. And that's also okay, too, right? We're going to learn different kinds of things than we would in the absence of this. JORDYN: Yeah. And that is super exciting. And then the other side of that coin becomes feasibility questions. So, this thing that we're imagining, how would we build it? Can we build it? What do we need in order to build it? And so, those conversations are really starting to fire up as we start to imagine a solution. DAWN: I know there's a really awesome blog post to come from Jordyn that I reviewed [inaudible 22:27] JORDYN: Wow. Public nudging. DAWN: [laughs] JORDYN: I'm late with this blog post, and I'm being publicly nudged. This is so intense; you're right. DAWN: [laughs] But it's so relevant to exactly what y'all have been talking about. JORDYN: I know. I know. [laughs] DAWN: So, [crosstalk 22:40] retroactively point everyone to it. It's really good stuff. JORDYN: How would you state the problem, Josh, if anyone out there has the problem? JOSH: The problem we're looking at is people who have a hard time managing their social network in general but their professional social network in particular. You know, that might be, you know there's people you wish you were keeping in touch with, but you just forget to keep in touch with them. Or, you know, you tell somebody to do something in some thread, or some channel, on some social network, or some direct message, and you just kind of forget about that because you don't go back to it. Or maybe, you know, you're making friends on Discord. You're making friends on Slack. You're making friends out in the real world, but you don't actually, like, add them into your LinkedIn, something like that. Somebody who's having problems like that that's actually done something about it. Did you go and build yourself, like, a spreadsheet? A baby CRM in Notion, or in Coda, or in Airtable? Do you search out a purpose-built tool? You know, if you think you've ever tried, whether you've been successful or not, to actually solve this problem for yourself, I'd love to talk to you, or Jordyn would love to talk to you. Dawn would probably love to talk to you also. But reach out to any of us any way you can. I got a super Googleable SEO-compatible name, as does Jordyn. So, like, reach out to one of us, and we'd love to chat. DAWN: Awesome. Well, thanks, y'all. This has been wonderful, as always. And if anybody has questions for the team, feel free to comment on the post afterwards. And we'll see y'all next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

In F.A. Hayek's book The Counter-Revolution of Science, he explains the significance of two French thinkers, Henri de Saint Simon and Auguste Comte, who, by applying the language and methods of the natural sciences to social phenomenon, are responsible for the dramatic rise of socialism, totalitarianism, and the idea of the technocratic state. Even though these names have largely been forgotten to history, their ideas were wildly popular during the 19th century and merged with Hegelianism in Germany, leading to the works of Marx and Engles. In passing, Hayek refers to two prominent 19th century Biblical scholars, David Fredrich Strauss and Ernst Renan, both of whom were influenced by Saint-Simonian ideas. Both of these scholars were deeply influential in the development of modern Biblical scholarship, and both had ties to the nationalist and statist movements that swept Europe during this time. Strauss was the most influential member of the Tubingen School in Germany, which set the parameters for modern Biblical scholarship, and Renan had an outsized influence in France. I outline as a preliminary theory the significance of these two figures being attached to Saint-Simonian ideas and how that has quite possibly shaped the presuppositions of all modern Biblical scholarship down to this day. I also explain how Albert Schweitzer correctly sets both of their work in the context of Hegelianism but missed the Hegelian merger with Saint-Simonianism.  We need a Biblical scholar who can take these ideas further, and I plan on addressing this interesting insight in more detail in later shows.   Media Referenced:The Counter-Revolution of Science, F.A. HayekThe Quest for the Historical Jesus, Albert SchweitzerApproaches to Paul, Magnus Zetterholmhttps://libertarianchristians.com/episode/first-three-quests-historical-jesus-reimarus-wright/https://libertarianchristians.com/episode/next-quest-historical-jesus/https://libertarianchristians.com/episode/ep-90-the-counter-revolution-of-science-by-f-a-hayek/ The Protestant Libertarian Podcast is a project of the Libertarian Christian Institute and a part of the Christians For Liberty Network. The Libertarian Christian Institute can be found at www.libertarianchristians.com. Questions, comments, suggestions? Please reach out to me at theprotestantlibertarian@gmail.com.  You can also follow the podcast on Twitter: @prolibertypod. For more about the show, you can go to theprotestantlibertarianpodcast.com. If you like the show and want to support it, you can! Check out the Protestant Libertarian Podcast page at https://www.buymeacoffee.com/theplpodcast. Also, please consider giving me a star rating and leaving me a review, it really helps expand the shows profile! Thanks! 

A busy two-fold episode. First the guys deep dive into the world of Marx Brothers movie trailers, exploring their sometimes puzzling approaches, noting unique footage or dialogue, and lamenting those that are missing...one of which we get big news about in mid-show! To follow along, you can view all the trailers at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j39lSdq3M9Q Then (at 1:03:03), actor/writer Jerry Sroka joins the podcast to discuss his new semi-autobiographical film, “Our Almost Completely True Love Story” in which he plays a Marx Brothers fanatic who courts actress Mariette Hartley. Jerry details the genesis of the film, which is laden with Marx references, as well as his real-life marriage to Mariette. He also recalls some hilarious personal and professional encounters with Woody Allen.

Extrait de l'épisode LAFARGUE - Le droit à la paresse Cet épisode sera publié sur YouTube et en podcast vendredi prochain le 1er décembre Il est d'ores et déjà disponible en intégralité sur ma page Patreon : https://www.patreon.com/posts/avant-premiere-93389558

The term "self-harm" is an umbrella term, encompassing a broad range of behaviors, under which is included substance abuse and misuse, eating disorders, suicide, and nonsuicidal self-injury (NSSI). In this episode, Dr. Brianna Turner from the University of Victoria in British Columbia, Canada discusses how often self-damaging behaviors, including risky sex, financial and physical recklessness, co-occur with NSSI and where NSSI fits within the umbrella of self-harming behaviors. She also simplifies research using structural models of self-damaging behaviors in a way that helps us understand the co-occurrences of potentially harmful coping behaviors.Learn more about Dr. Turner and her work in the Risky Behaviour Lab at the University of Victoria here, and access many of her publications at https://uvic.academia.edu/BriannaTurner. Follow Dr. Turner on Twitter/X (@BriannaT_Psyc) and connect with the Risky Behaviour Lab on Instagram (@riskybehaviourlab_uvic) and Twitter/X (@RBL_UVic), especially if you are interested in participating in NSSI research. Below are the structural models of self-damaging behaviors discussed in this episode:St. Germain, S. A., & Hooley, J. M. (2012). Direct and indirect forms of non-suicidal self-injury: Evidence for a distinction. Psychiatry Research, 197(1-2), 78-84.Green, J. D., Hatgis, C., Kearns, J. C., Nock, M. K., & Marx, B. P. (2017). The Direct and Indirect Self-Harm Inventory (DISH): A new measure for assessing high-risk and self-harm behaviors among military veterans. Psychology of Men & Masculinity, 18(3), 208–214.  Bresin, K. (2020). Toward a unifying theory of dysregulated behaviors. Clinical Psychology Review, 80, 101885.Kotov, R., Krueger, R. F., Watson, D., Achenbach, T. M., Althoff, R. R., Bagby, R. M., . . . Zimmerman, M. (2017). The Hierarchical Taxonomy of Psychopathology (HiTOP): A dimensional alternative to traditional nosologies. Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 126(4), 454–477.Follow Dr. Westers on Instagram and Twitter/X (@DocWesters). To join ISSS, visit itriples.org and follow ISSS on Facebook and Twitter/X (@ITripleS).The Psychology of Self-Injury podcast has been rated #1 by Feedspot  in their list of "10 Best Self Harm Podcasts" and #5 in their "20 Best Clinical Psychology Podcasts." It has also been featured in Audible's "Best Mental Health Podcasts to Defy Stigma and Begin to Heal."If you or someone you know should be interviewed on the podcast, we want to know! Please fill out this form, and we will be in touch with more details if it's a good fit.

That's right dear listener, we've somehow actually made it to 100 episodes. From those articles in Tribune & Jacobin in episode two, to reading the man himself, it's safe to say we've come a long way. For this special episode, we returned to Marx's Critique of the Gotha Program with fresh perspectives. Strap in, because this is one of our longest episodes yet. Here's to 100 more. Reading: Critique of the Gotha Program (1875) by Karl Marx Send us a question, comment or valid concern: auxiliarystatements(at)gmail.com DISCORD: https://discord.gg/Z9s3vBAq

Danny and Derek speak with Leigh Claire La Berge, author of Marx for Cats: A Radical Bestiary. They discuss Leigh Claire's unique approach to Marxist critique through the lens of cats, feline usage in the lexicon from the royal (Richard the Lionheart) to the proletarian (“wildcat strike”), how our feline friends help illuminate watershed moments in the advent and development of capitalism, and more.Be sure to pounce on a copy of the book! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.americanprestigepod.com/subscribe

Originally recorded June 21, 2023 To see and hear full video of episodes on the day they are released, subscribe to Daimonosophy at Patreon https://patreon.com/Daimonosophy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed6CtjC31bo

"L'Anello del nibelungo" è una travolgente e avvincente avventura lirica di oltre quindici ore composta da Richard Wagner dal 1848 al 1874 che si articola in quattro opere che riprendono le leggende della mitologia nordica nelle quali il compositore tedesco esprime le sue idee elaborandole attraverso la lettura di filosofi come Marx, Feuerbach e Schopenhauer.

In this inaugural episode of our new series on ecosocialism, we discuss some writings by ecological Marxist thinker John Bellamy Foster, whose main contribution to contemporary discourse is his elaboration of the theory of metabolic rift. We talk about how this concept is meant to explain why the capitalist mode of production is environmentally unsustainable in principle, but also dig into why this approach is not totally satisfying. By the end of the discussion we're bumming ourselves out about the unfolding climate crisis and the looming threat of ecofascism. Can't promise that the rest of the series won't also be a real downer! Uh, sorry about that!!leftofphilosophy.com | @leftofphilReferences:John Bellamy Foster, “Marx's Theory of Metabolic Rift: Classical Foundations for Environmental Sociology,” American Journal of Sociology 105.2 (1999): 366-405John Bellamy Foster and Brett Clark, “Marx's Ecology in the 21st Century,” World Review of Political Economy, 1.1 (2010): 142-156Music:Vintage Memories by Schematist | schematist.bandcamp.com

The New Discourses Podcast with James Lindsay, Episode 129 Degrowth is a death cult. Degrowth means starving while you freeze to death in the dark. That said, Degrowth Communism is something more. Specifically, it's something that should be called "Degrowth Distributism," and it's the overarching plan of the United Nations, World Economic Forum, World Health Organization, and the rest operating under the brand name of the "well-being economy." In this long and detailed episode of the New Discourses Podcast, host James Lindsay takes apart the Marxist manipulations of the key words, "scarcity," "wealth," and "abundance," necessary to lure the world into this devious trap. By tracing the seventh chapter of Kohei Saito's recent book Marx in the Anthropocene: Towards the Idea of Degrowth Communism (https://amzn.to/47x5nwL), he's able to unlock the mystery of the what, why, and how for the destination point of this global Communist revolution and explain its fascistic corporate subsidiary structure in unprecedented clarity. Join him to see the big picture. Get James Lindsay's new book, The Marxification of Education: https://amzn.to/3RYZ0tY Support New Discourses: https://newdiscourses.com/support Follow New Discourses on other platforms: https://newdiscourses.com/subscribe Follow James Lindsay: https://linktr.ee/conceptualjames © 2023 New Discourses. All rights reserved. #NewDiscourses #JamesLindsay #Degrowth

Ecumenical theologian and author Stephen D. Morrison joins David to discuss common objections to liberation theology and to present a patristic, anti-capitalist Christianity. Isn't Christianity about a change of heart and a personal relationship with God? Why turn religion into economics and politics? It's true that early Christians abolished private property and shared their possessions, but this model did not last long because it was unrealistic. Human beings are fallen and selfish. Capitalism is the best economic model given the reality of original sin. Why repeat a failed, impossible experiment by advocating for common property today? Didn't key figures in the early Church have a wide array of views on economics? Is there enough consensus among them to claim that their witness gives relatively clear guidelines on religion and economics? Marx was an atheist and a materialist. These starting points are not compatible with a Christian approach. Further, Marxism is responsible for the deaths of millions of people in the 20th Century. Why take Marx seriously given that his first principles are flawed and his views yielded mass murder? What is your “elevator pitch” for Christian socialism? How has liberation theology shaped your life and thought as a Christian socialist?Resource:All Riches Come From Injusticehttps://www.sdmorrison.org/books/Music:"Los molinos" by Adam Drake and Tom Jenkins"Azure Sky" by Terry Devine-King and Adam DrakeObtained via subscription to Audio Network

This week we continue our discussion of Napoleon Bonaparte with our comrade Matthew. We start out tying up some loose ends and then discuss the upcoming Ridley Scott movie and the many variations of Bonapartism. Music: Marche du Sacre de NapoléonSupport the show

Victor Marx is a high risk humanitarian, former U.S. Marine, author, filmmaker, and lays claim to the World's fastest gun disarm. In part three, Marx tells us more about his is incredible mission work across the globe. Shawn and Victor discuss faith and the role it plays in a world on the brink. Marx's history and humanitarian work gives him a unique perspective on the challenges facing the United States today. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://lairdsuperfood.com - USE CODE "SRS" https://meetfabric.com/shawn Victor Marx Links: Website - https://victormarx.com | https://iamvictormarx.com Contact - https://victormarx.com/contact IG - https://www.instagram.com/victormarx X - https://twitter.com/victormarx Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week on the Mixtape with Scott, I have a very special guest. Adam Smith, the so-called founder of economics, and author of two best selling books, The Theory of Moral Sentiments published in 1759 and An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations (buy it now for $2800 here at eBay!) published in 1776. I know what you're thinking. “But Scott, that would make Adam Smith very old, even probably dead, wouldn't it?” And you're right on both counts! Adam Smith was a moral philosopher born in 1723 in Scotland so it literally makes him 300 years old, and yes, very dead. But I decided to push through that anyway and a few months ago asked ChatGPT-4 to essentially pretend to be Adam Smith for my podcast without any awareness or surprise. This podcast is somewhere between a seance and a play. It is the ghost in the machine — literally. I did a one hour interview with ChatGPT-4 who played the part of Adam Smith using the same style of interviewing I do with all the economists on the show — personal stories. This was all done in the ChatGPT-4 browser, and it was then recorded using Amazon AWS Polly “text to voice” using a British male's voice named “Arthur”. This is part of a class assignment I have been doing this semester at Baylor University in my History of Economic Thought class. I got the idea to do this earlier this summer when I saw that the economist, Tyler Cowen, had interviewed Jonathan Swift using ChatGPT-4. So I decided to build into my classes an assignment where the students had to do it too. My students had to interview four 18th to early 20th century economists, with the final project being a recorded interview much like I did, and to show them it could be done, I interviewed Adam Smith. And boy was it fun. It was fun because of how novel it was, but it was also fun because of how thought provoking it was for me to learn about Smith's first book Theory of Moral Sentiments, and listening to ChatGPT-4 speculate about the book's connections to other ideas. I was mesmerized by the entire experience and really didn't know what to make of it. After all, language models hallucinate; I already knew this. But then it dawned on me — this entire interview is a hallucination. What does it mean for a large language model to “be” Adam Smith when in fact Adam Smith never said any of these words? It means for ChatGPT-4 to hallucinate. Question is, though: is this a good hallucination or is it a bad one, and how to we judge that and should we even care? I wonder if hallucinating is a feature, not a bug, of ChatGPT-4. Is this any good? Is it something useful? I think so. Students seemed to have gotten a lot out of it. It requires the suspension of disbelief but then so does watching fantasy, or ready science fiction. Your mileage may vary on how much you enjoy it, and maybe the things we discuss aren't so profound but I didn't know a lot about him before doing this. So it was just nice to listen and learn more about the man, though a Smith scholar will need to tell me what's accurate and what isn't (as I said, technically it's inaccurate from start to finish by definition).My PhD student, Jared Black, is in my history of economic thought class and has enjoyed being able to interrogate these old economists and their ideas. He decided to create his own GPT chatbot using OpenAI's builder environment and said I could share it. https://chat.openai.com/g/g-GJeexE26G-ask-an-economist Ask to talk to Bentham or Nassau or Senior or Say or Marx. Just remember to be polite. A recent RCT found that if you're nice to ChatGPT-4, it tends to perform tasks better. I swear I saw that study, but now I can't find it, but it seems true so I'm going to cite it. Thanks again for tolerating me on this podcast. Even though this may seem gimmicky, in a way it is fully consistent with the shows premise. The show is about the personal stories of economists and the hope that by simply listening to economists' stories, we can better understand our own story. The hope, too, is that in the long run, we hear a story of the profession itself. After all, we use stories to navigate our lives, and though stories like models are in some sense “wrong”, sometimes they are useful. This story is wrong, too, but maybe it'll be useful. Peace!Scott's Substack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Scott's Substack at causalinf.substack.com/subscribe

Victor Marx is a high risk humanitarian, former U.S. Marine, author, filmmaker, and lays claim to the World's fastest gun disarm. In part two, we get into Marx's humanitarian work with All Things Possible. His missions have taken him all over the world to Iraq, Syria, North Africa and Southeast Asia – mostly in non-permissive and high threat environments. His work focuses on orphans and widows that are victims of war, abuse and crimes against humanity. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://lairdsuperfood.com - USE CODE "SRS" https://bubsnaturals.com/shawn - USE CODE "SHAWN" Victor Marx Links: Website - https://victormarx.com | https://iamvictormarx.com Contact - https://victormarx.com/contact IG - https://www.instagram.com/victormarx X - https://twitter.com/victormarx Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dr. Robert E. Marx received his DDS degree from Northwestern University in 1971. In 1977, he earned a Certificate in Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery from the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, where he is presently a professor of surgery and Chief of the Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Division. Dr. Marx spent 13 years as an active duty officer in the United States Air Force, and later served in Operation Desert Storm. A noted researcher and lecturer, he is credited with pioneering platelet-rich plasma growth factors and the application of recombinant human bone morphogenetic protein, as well as developing the accepted protocol of hyperbaric oxygen to enhance healing in radiated tissue. Dr. Marx's professional awards include the W. Harry Archer Award, the William J. Gies Award, the Paul Bert Award, and the Donald B. Osbon Award. In addition to numerous textbooks and academic publications, he is also the author of the novel Deadly Prescription.

Have you ever wondered about the role faith plays in our lives, and how it impacts our decisions and perceptions? We've embarked on an enlightening journey, concluding our Suspicious Faith series by delving into the thought-provoking critiques of Freud, Marx, and Nietzsche. Uncover how Freud's assertion that faith fulfills unconscious psychological needs, Marx's view of faith as a painkiller, and Nietzsche's multifaceted critique of religion can refine and deepen our faith. Venture further with us into Suspicious Faith as we study Nietzsche's impactful teachings. Challenge yourself to see faith not just as a spiritual shelter but as a philosophical guide to life. As we dissect Nietzsche's assertion 'God is dead' and his concept of Ubermensch, we find an unexpected parallel with James, Jesus's brother, who also urged Christians to be proactive in doing good on earth. This episode will help you embrace the essence of both philosophies - the pursuit of truth and the drive for self-improvement.Lastly, our exploration leads us to the concept of following Jesus. It may seem intimidating or uncertain, but we encourage you to keep engaging, learning, and questioning. Faith isn't about having all the answers but about the journey towards a deeper understanding of divine values. We believe that this pursuit can lead us to a robust, empathetic, transformative faith. Whether you are a believer or a skeptic, this episode will provoke thought and stimulate your mind.Support the show

One of the issues that providers may face in their clinical practice is deciding what treatment options might fit best for a client who has PTSD. While our brains often go to the first line treatments like PE, CPT and EMDR, sometimes a 10 - 12 session protocol isn't the best fit for the client in front of us who can't commit to that treatment length or has other reasons that drive a different approach. To truly provide patient-driven care, we, as clinicians, need to have other EBP options at-the-ready to meet our clients where they are. In this episode CDP's own Dr. Paula Domenici joins us to talk about her experience with using Written Exposure Therapy (WET) and how it has enhanced her clinical practice. Come dip your toes with us as we explore how WET might be a useful protocol to add to your clinical toolbox. You won't want to miss Paula's “EBP Confession” so stay tuned until the end! Resources:Sloan, D. M., & Marx, B. P. (2019). Written exposure therapy for PTSD: A brief treatment approach for mental health professionals. American Psychological Association.CDP Presents Webinar: An Introduction to Written Exposure Therapy (WET) for PTSDNCPTSD on demand course: Written Exposure Therapy: A Brief PTSD Treatment RCT's References:Exposure‐based writing therapies for subthreshold and clinical posttraumatic stress disorder: A systematic review and meta‐analysis. Effectiveness of written exposure therapy for posttraumatic stress disorder in the Department of Veterans Affairs healthcare system. Written exposure therapy vs prolonged exposure therapy in the treatment of posttraumatic stress disorder: A randomized clinical trial. A brief exposure-based treatment vs cognitive processing therapy for posttraumatic stress disorder: A randomized noninferiority clinical trial. Effect of written exposure therapy vs cognitive processing therapy on increasing treatment efficiency among military service members with posttraumatic stress disorder: A randomized noninferiority trial. Calls-to-action: Sloan, D. M., & Marx, B. P. (2019). Written exposure therapy for PTSD: A brief treatment approach for mental health professionals. American Psychological Association.CDP Presents Webinar: An Introduction to Written Exposure Therapy (WET) for PTSDNCPTSD on demand course: Written Exposure Therapy: A Brief PTSD TreatmentSubscribe to the Practical for Your Practice PodcastSubscribe to The Center for Deployment Psychology Monthly Email Share your EBP fears with us on www.speakpipe.com/cdpp4p

Victor Marx is a high risk humanitarian, former U.S. Marine, author, filmmaker, and lays claim to the World's fastest gun disarm. This is a three part series that covers his life story. In part one, Marx recounts a childhood marked by severe abuse. By the time he graduated from high school, his lifestyle was filled with drugs, fights and theft. Yet, the discipline of the military and his steadfast faith would reset the course of his life. This episode is extremely graphic. Viewer / Listener discretion is advised. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://lairdsuperfood.com - USE CODE "SRS" https://goldco.com/ryan | 855-936-GOLD #goldcopartner https://preparewithshawn.com https://blackbuffalo.com - USE CODE "SRS" Victor Marx Links: Website - https://victormarx.com | https://iamvictormarx.com Contact - https://victormarx.com/contact IG - https://www.instagram.com/victormarx X - https://twitter.com/victormarx Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support The Malcolm Effect: https://www.patreon.com/TheMalcolmEffect   In this episode, Barnaby Raine succinctly details a history of Zionism whilst speaking to our current moment.   Barnaby Raine is an intellectual historian writing his PhD at Columbia University. His doctoral research seeks to explain the decline of thinking about the end of capitalism from Marx through to debates in twentieth century Britain, amid the end of formal empire. He holds a Masters in History from Columbia and a BA in History and Politics from Oxford. He has broad interests in the history of social theory and modern political thought, the history of the political left and methodological questions in intellectual history, as well as theories of contemporary antisemitism. His writing has appeared in The Guardian, n+1, and numerous other venues.   I.G. @TheGambian Twitter: @MomodouTaal @CTayJ  

在这期节目里，哈德逊研究所中国中心主任余茂春分析目前中国甚嚣尘上的反犹太主义的马克思主义根源，以及中国古代史学专家魏特夫对马克思的亚细亚生产方式理论的分析及其在当代中国的应用。[English]Title: Karl Marx's Anti-Semitism and the Asiatic Mode of Production, as Applied to China.Description:  In this episode, Miles Yu, director of Hudson Institute's China Center, analyzes the Marxist source of today's state-sponsored anti-Semitism in China, and Marx's theory of the Asiatic Mode of Production through the lens of historian Karl Wittfogel, as applied to contemporary China.  

This week we had our long time comrade and resident France expert, Matthew, back on the show to talk about the mixed legacy of Napoleon Bonaparte. Was Napoleon a force for progress or the death of the revolution? The answer is yes. Revolutionary Figures: Napoleon Bonaparte https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/ageofrevolution/revolutionary-figures/napoleon-bonaparte/#Napoleon: Hegelian Herohttps://www.napoleon.org/en/history-of-the-two-empires/articles/napoleon-hegelian-hero/Hegel and Napoleon: On Heroes and the Sublime in History https://minervawisdom.com/2020/04/13/hegel-and-napoleon-on-heroes-and-the-sublime-in-history/Music: Chant du départ, the anthem of the first French Empire. Support the show

John and I continue our series on Leo Marx's The Machine in the Garden: Technology and the Pastoral Ideal in America. This chapter delves deep into the symbol of the garden—we dive into Marx's reading of Jefferson, the nature of the pastoral ideal and how it evolved, the vision of Virginia, and more. Get full access to Nuclear Barbarians at nuclearbarbarians.substack.com/subscribe

Flora Tristan (1803-1844) was a French-Peruvian socialist writer and activist. She made important contributions to early feminist theory, and argued that the progress of women's rights was directly related with the progress of the working class. She wrote several well-known works, including Peregrinations of a Pariah, Promenades in London, and The Workers' Union. For Further Reading: Flora Tristan: Forgotten Feminist and Socialist Flora Tristan: Radical Socialist, Feminist, And First Internationalist L'Union ouvrière, or The Workers' Union This month, we're pulling back the curtain to reveal women overlooked in their own lifetimes or in our historical accounts of the eras in which they lived. We're talking about the activists, thinkers, leaders, artists, and innovators history has forgotten. History classes can get a bad rap, and sometimes for good reason. When we were students, we couldn't help wondering... where were all the ladies at? Why were so many incredible stories missing from the typical curriculum? Enter, Womanica. On this Wonder Media Network podcast we explore the lives of inspiring women in history you may not know about, but definitely should. Every weekday, listeners explore the trials, tragedies, and triumphs of groundbreaking women throughout history who have dramatically shaped the world around us. In each 5 minute episode, we'll dive into the story behind one woman listeners may or may not know–but definitely should. These diverse women from across space and time are grouped into easily accessible and engaging monthly themes like Educators, Villains, Indigenous Storytellers, Activists, and many more.  Womanica is hosted by WMN co-founder and award-winning journalist Jenny Kaplan. The bite-sized episodes pack painstakingly researched content into fun, entertaining, and addictive daily adventures.  Womanica was created by Liz Kaplan and Jenny Kaplan, executive produced by Jenny Kaplan, and produced by Grace Lynch, Maddy Foley, Brittany Martinez, Edie Allard, Lindsey Kratochwill, Adesuwa Agbonile, Carmen Borca-Carrillo, Taylor Williamson, Sara Schleede, Paloma Moreno Jimenez, and Abbey Delk. Special thanks to Shira Atkins. Original theme music composed by Miles Moran. Follow Wonder Media Network: Website Instagram Twitter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

thoughtbot's Incubator Program is back for a third round! This episode introduces founder Josh Herzig-Marks of Knect, and he will be sharing his journey from freelance work to joining the program and what happens throughout! So far, he appreciates the deliberate communication practices required for practical remote work, despite remote work already being second nature to him, and he understands the importance of proactive and transparent communication in a team setting. One critical insight for Josh so far was the misconception surrounding the term "CRM" in personal relationship management. His moment involved mislabeling a survey, which led to confusion about the project's intent. As the Incubator Program progresses and continues to scale, Jordyn expresses excitement about involving more teams with different geographic focuses. The goal is to foster a collaborative environment within the thoughtbot Incubator Slack channel, encouraging past and present participants to share experiences and advice. We invite listeners who resonate with any of the challenges heard or have potential solutions to reach out! Our next Incubator episode will introduce our other Session 3 participants, Mike and Chris, founders of Goodz. Follow Josh Herzig-Marx on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuaherzigmarx/) or X (https://twitter.com/herzigma). Visit his website at joshua.herzig-marx.com (https://joshua.herzig-marx.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: LINDSEY: My name is Lindsey Christensen, and I head up marketing for thoughtbot. For anyone listening or joining who isn't familiar with thoughtbot, we're a product design and development consultancy that helps you make great products and help make your team a success. One of the very cool ways we do that is with the thoughtbot Startup Incubator, which is a program that we launched this year and that Jordyn, who's with us today, has been heading up. What's up, Jordyn? And today, what we're going to be doing is catching up with one of the latest founders who's participating in the incubator and seeing what he's been up to since the kickoff over these last two weeks. JOSH: It's been two weeks. It's been two really fast weeks. LINDSEY: [laughs] Josh, could you give us a little introduction to yourself? JOSH: Sure. I'm Josh. Hi. I've been in tech product management for, like, 20-ish years, 15 or so of those were in head-of-product roles. And a bunch of those early on were my own startup, where I discovered I was a pretty mediocre founder but really liked this product leadership thing. I had a very lucky exit, which I leveraged into a series of first product manager, first head of product, first product leader roles at a series of early-stage companies across a ton of domains: B2B, B2C, FinTech, mobile, Revtech. And then, a little over a year ago, my partner and I got to do this thing we've been talking about for a while, which was we swapped who the primary parent was. We have two kids, two teens, 13 and 15, right now, so that's eighth grade and ninth grade. I wanted to take over primary parenting so that they could focus as much or as little on their career as they wanted to in the same way they had allowed me to do for the first 15-ish years of our kids being kids. And if I were a better person, I would have found some kind of job that allowed for work-life balance, but I'm not. I have a whopping case of ADD, which we'll probably come back to later on in this conversation. And the way that I knew I'd be able to actually fulfill my responsibility as a primary parent was by retiring from salaried work. So, I did that a little over a year ago, last summer. And kind of keep me busy and occupied in between 8:30 in the morning, you know, school drop off and 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon school pickup. And when I'm not doing shopping, and cooking, and lunches, and doctor's appointments, and dentist appointments, and orthodontist appointments, and play dates, and soccer practices, and basketball practices, and soccer games, and basketball games, and Bar and Bat Mitzvahs, and all the other things that we do, I built a very small niche coaching mentorship and advisory practice around founders, solo product managers, and first-time heads of product. And that's pretty much up until about two weeks ago what I had been doing with myself. LINDSEY: That's a great update. I especially liked all the practices that you have to go to. [crosstalk 02:54] JOSH: I do like practices. We went to a co-ed soccer game for my middle school kid. And it was the first time that the boys' team and the girls' team ever played together, and they got totally clobbered by this other team. And what I loved about it at the end was the kids weren't bummed. They were like, "That was really fun." And, you know, for a lot of these kids, they've been friends since kindergarten. So, this is, like, nine years of being friends and playing recess soccer together. And they're not very good at soccer, but they just really love all playing together so much. And they just bring so much sportspersonship to the field. It was really a pleasure. LINDSEY: Okay. So, you're doing all this fun primary parenting and going to all the fun practices. You've got a coaching business that you're working on as well. But there was this idea, this idea that's needling. What brings you to us? JOSH: I think before it was an idea, it was a problem. And I knew this was a Josh problem. And the Josh problem was that I have a really big network, you know, built over the past, you know, more than 20 years of professional life. And, you know, one of the joke lines I have is that the solution to almost any business problem is found in talking to more people. I really value being able to, you know, call people up, message them, text them, email them, get together with them, ask them lots of questions, listen hard. And I try really hard to reciprocate, doing the same thing. I don't know what your professional network looks like, Lindsey or Jordyn, over the past, I don't know, couple years, decade, however long it's been, you know. But what used to be email and LinkedIn, maybe, and maybe getting together in some local meetups, has really spiraled what, to me, feels, again, whopping case of ADD, completely out of control, right? I have my LinkedIn network, which has not gone away, right? And now I'm a member of, I don't know, Jordyn, we share these a lot, a dozen different professional networking Slacks. Those are the ones that Jordyn and I share, probably far, far more than that, right? Product management ones, entrepreneurship ones, product marketing ones, engineering ones, tech company ones, ones geographically based for the Boston area, ones that are focused on things like climate change and climate tech. So, a ridiculous number of these. And as somebody with some experience and the privilege to have some free time, it feels kind of like, I don't know, an obligation sounds too grandiose, but it feels like a nice way that I can give back is by participating and trying to be helpful inside of these. So, that's happened. And Discord became a thing, you know, certainly, it had been a thing for gamers since before that. But since the beginning of the pandemic, Discord became a thing. I'm in, like, I don't know, a dozen different similar Discord groups. And I'm in WhatsApp communities, and I'm in Telegram communities. And in-person meetups have started to happen again. And I found myself kind of losing control. I was telling people, whether, you know, over the phone, or in Zoom calls, or direct messages, that I'd make connections to them, make intros, and it was getting increasingly hard to do that. I was forgetting about people, you know, like, it's hard to remember to stay in touch with all of your colleagues when you move on from past roles. And, you know, I would try to make connections to people to be like, okay, Lindsey, you know, you wanted to meet somebody else in marketing in the Boston area. And I remember that, like, six years ago, they worked at Rocket, and now they've moved on to something else. I can't remember what it's called. And, like, how do you, like, you know, page through your email and your Slack connections and your LinkedIn to find that person? And that was really hard, too. So, I have ADD. My family would say that I'm, like, moderately functional. So, how do I achieve that? By creating systems for myself. And I did all the things which other people have tried to do. I built myself, like spreadsheets and Notion databases. I have an awful lot of, like, Notion databases now powered by forms. I'm like, just put your information in, and it'll appear magically into my database where I try to, you know, push the work onto other people. And none of it was really working for me. And that was kind of the genesis of the idea and then trying to figure out, is this a Josh problem, or is this a broader problem? That's kind of how I got started. LINDSEY: Lots of people, lots of channels, not a lot of tracking or confusing tracking. And we chatted briefly before, you know, you were starting the program. And this really resonated for me. And I also ended up doing a user interview [chuckles] with the team about it. JOSH: Yeah [laughs]. LINDSEY: Because yeah, in my role, and moving from different companies or doing mentoring on the side, and being in investor communities and marketing communities, it gets overwhelming for sure. And I feel the pain. And I've had the embarrassing moments of not remembering how I know someone or a conversation we had, or someone I really respect asking me for an intro, and I'm like, I don't remember anything about how I know that person. JOSH: I mean, that was both gratifying and disappointing. Gratifying, like, oh, it's not just a Josh problem; we all struggle with this, and disappointing, right? And as I've had more of these conversations, just to realize, like, I know almost nobody who doesn't struggle with this. There's a few. There's a few outliers, a few weirdos, a few superheroes who are able to do this really well and who feel in control. And, like, literally, as they describe it, it sounds like...Jordyn, you're nodding, right? It sounds like a superpower as they're describing how they do this, how they kind of manage it. JORDYN: [laughs] JOSH: But for the most part, thank goodness it's not a Josh problem. The bummer is, nobody has, like, you know, the magic incantation, right? The spell or the secret or, like, the one weird trick, or the tool or, like, could I just give you money and solve this thing? And none of this really exists today. And that was kind of a bummer. I was hoping for, you know, better news that this was a solved problem. LINDSEY: [laughs] Yeah. Jordyn, heading over to you for a minute, Josh applied for the incubator with this problem that he was working on. We had a lot of great applications, I think, for this session. What made you think or you and the team land on Josh as one of our session three founders that would be a great fit for the programming? JORDYN: I'd say it was probably two factors; one is the stage. What's really tough was figuring out who's a good stage fit for us. So, like, what that means is you've identified a specific enough problem. You're not just, like, I want to solve world hunger or something, like, super broad. There's enough of a specific pain point or a problem that you're trying to solve that there's, like, we might conceivably make progress on it in eight weeks. But you're not so far along that you are basically like, "Hey, I've got the specs for an MVP. Can you just build it?" Which is, like, too late for us. And part of that is a discovery mindset of, "Hey, I've identified this pain point. I think other people have it. But I am very open to how we solve the problem or learning new things about it, learning that it is a bigger need in a market I've never thought about," like being open to the things we might learn together. So those things: stage fit, mindset fit. But, also, like, it is a problem that is addressable with software, right? thoughtbot's focus is software. Like, yes, we have worked on products that are not software products, but, like, our bread and butter is software. And my personal bread and butter professionally is software. So, is the problem on the table something that, you know, software is a big component in meeting the need? So, it's, you know, it's stage. So, I guess it's three things: stage, founder mindset, which is this combination of having conviction but being open-minded, a very weird [laughs] thing to find in a person. And then, you know, can we conceive of a way to address this with software without jumping to a solutionizing? That's sort of what we're looking for, and Josh checked all of those boxes. And I think, also, just had a problem that people really resonated [laughs] with, which is clear from [laughs] what Lindsey was saying and for me personally as well, I think I should [laughter] say. This is a problem I have. So, when Josh and I first talked about it, I was just like, yes, I would love to solve this problem. I also wish there was some spell, or incantation, or weird trick, or existing products, et cetera. JOSH: We might have spent an hour nerding out over all of the things that we've tried, yeah. JORDYN: The things that we've tried, emphasis on the nerding. JOSH: On the nerding part, yeah. JORDYN: Any of you listening [crosstalk 10:45] JOSH: Or what if we get sneakier connect Google Sheets to this, like, really weird web query and [laughs] -- JORDYN: [laughs] Exactly. And then giving up because it's totally unmaintainable or, like, [laughter] impossible, yeah. So... JOSH: Right. Oh, and it's all crap, too [laughs]. JORDYN: Right, right. So, if anyone out there listening is like, "Oh yeah, that's me," first of all, you're not alone. Second of all, please reach out to us. We would like to interview you [crosstalk 11:09] JOSH: Or, if anyone out there is like, "Oh, I have this thing solved," right? If you got the solution, please reach out to us. JORDYN: [laughs] Yes, also, please. JOSH: You can save us six more weeks of work [laughs]. JORDYN: If you know the solution, definitely tell us. Anyway, so to your question, though, Lindsey, that's how this [inaudible 11:23], and it just seemed like a great fit along those lines. LINDSEY: Yeah. So but, Josh, you mentioned...well, I think you kind of downplayed your founder history a little bit. But you've been a founder who had success, certainly a product team leader who has been very successful in the early-stage teams. What were you looking for from thoughtbot? Like, what attracted you to working with the thoughtbot team on your problem when you have all this kind of past experience already? JOSH: I think there's probably three parts to it; one is I know a bunch of people in the thoughtbot team pretty well. In past roles, I have actually hired thoughtbot; I think it was twice. And I've referred a bunch of your current and past clients as well. Like, I'm just generally a big thoughtbot fan. I think I've even used thoughtbot products long before I even knew, like, Chad or Jordyn, some of your old products from, like, you know, the early 2000s. So, we're going really OG here. So, I knew thoughtbot really well and think really highly of everybody who I've interacted with there. Number two is, I know, you say incubator, but, for me, the word that's really been resonating has been accelerator. It can be really slow the early, I don't know, weeks, months, years to go from an idea to, hey, this is really an opportunity. And I didn't want to spend weeks or years at this. I have a full-time job. It's, you know, taking care of the family. Like, that's what I wanted to be focused on. And if this was really an opportunity, I wanted to figure this out relatively quickly. And I love the fact that thoughtbot has this eight-week accelerating program. And the third one is I had this...and, you know, not every assumption I came in with was one that I'm going to leave the program with. But I came in with the assumption that a lot of the risk was technology risk. I had a rough idea. I was quickly discovering this wasn't just a Josh problem; this was a broader problem, right? There's plenty of challenges beyond that, but it's good to discover that your problem is broad. But is it something which can actually get built and built relatively straightforward? Jordyn here [inaudible 13:27] this all the time. You know, I don't like science project problems, right? And thoughtbot is really, really good at building software and partnering with somebody who could help to remove that kind of risk as a non-technical founder, as somebody with literally zero technical skills, I find that very, I don't know, comforting, exciting. LINDSEY: Okay, writes down in marketing notebook: "Accelerator resonating more than incubator." [laughs] JOSH: I wanted to get to the decision...incubator is a better word for it. But I personally wanted to get to that is this a good opportunity or a bad opportunity decision faster. LINDSEY: To quickly validate invalidate. JOSH: Right. I wanted this, like, I wanted to timebox this thing, and eight weeks is a nice chunk of time. LINDSEY: Love that, yeah. JORDYN: I want to just, like, flag here that, like, all of these words are very frustrating [laughter]. And we had a really hard time picking one. LINDSEY: I know [laughs]. JORDYN: And we really actually, like, in literal terms, I think that program is way more, like, founder bootcamp than anything, but thoughtbot can't run a bootcamp without people thinking it's a Rails bootcamp, right? JOSH: Yeah. LINDSEY: [laughs] JORDYN: Like, if we just said, "thoughtbot bootcamp," people would be like, oh, as a developer, I should go to this bootcamp, and thoughtbot will teach me how to be a better engineer, which would be totally reasonable from a brand standpoint, right? So, we were like, all right, not bootcamp. And then accelerator typically comes with investment dollars, in my experience as a founder, and we don't invest cash in the companies that we work with yet. So, that was off the list. And that just left incubator, which, eh, like, I don't disagree that it's not the best word, but, whatever, we lack a good one. JOSH: I'll tell you one thing. So, I'm involved with other things in this space. I'm based in Boston but for Raleigh's brand-new Founder Institute chapter, which I think is a great program. And I'm really proud of the, you know, first cohort of founders that are going to the program down there. And I love them. And I love their energy, and enthusiasm, and focus and that we at Founder Institute are providing them with value. I think we really are, or I wouldn't be participating. But I wanted people to work alongside me. And I think that's actually one of the things which is really unique about thoughtbot's program. This isn't, like, you know, a bunch of other founders with varying amounts of experience working alongside you. This is, like, actual people who do things: designers and software engineers, developers who are working alongside you and learning alongside you. But it makes it, I would say, less of a lonely process. This is one of the things I remember. When I founded a company, the one time I did this prior, I did it with my best friend, which is about as unlonely as you can possibly get. And it still is really, really lonely. Having this like, you know, team backing you up and a company backing up that team and organization is nice. LINDSEY: Thanks for sharing that about the loneliness factor. That kind of reminds me, Jordyn; I know in the last session, you were trying out the idea of, like, this founder emotion tracker. Has that made its way to session 3? JORDYN: Not really, mostly because both of the teams we're working with, two teams, by the way, not just Josh, have been founders before. And so, the emotional rollercoaster of, like, literally every day, you know, Monday, you feel like a million bucks because you have a really great idea, and you're really excited about it. And then, Tuesday, you talk to a bunch of people who add some complexity to the assumptions that you had [laughs] made on Monday. And then you start to feel like maybe this isn't a thing, oh no. And then, Wednesday, you learn about some, like, technical thing that you didn't realize was a stumbling block. And so, by the end of Wednesday, you're like, everything is doomed. I shouldn't even be doing this. I've just wasted everyone's time. But then the team wakes up on Thursday and is like, "Actually, there's an easy solution to this. And we've found a new group of people to talk to who have this problem in a really clear way." And then you feel like a million bucks again. And then you just cycle through it. Like, that cycle is something that Josh and our other founding team have actually felt before. And so, we haven't really been, like, leaning on the emotional roller coaster timeline as much just because it hasn't been as relevant. And that's kind of what's tough about the program we're running, which is that everybody comes to it with different assets in hand. I always think of that scene in The Princess Bride when they're outside the castle, and Westley is like, "What do we have? What are our assets?" It's like you arrive to this with different assets in hand. You might have already talked to 50 people, but you have no technical background. So, you don't know what on earth to do about the information that you've learned. Or, you know, maybe you do have a technical background. And so, you've done a bunch of solutionizing, but you haven't talked to a single person about [laughs] whether they have the problem you're trying to solve. Anyway, it really runs the gamut. And so, the programming is designed to help teams find focus and find market message fit. But what people roll up with is very different. In this case, we have a cohort, so to speak, that has some prior startup experience, especially as founders. And so, they know a little bit more about how every day is going to emotionally feel different. And that emotional rollercoaster workstream is on the roadmap. But we don't spend as much time with it as we did with Ashley and with Agnes before in the first two sessions because they were first-time founders and really didn't know how they should be feeling. And that, to me, is one of the many value adds, including what Josh mentioned, like just having a team diligently focused on your problem space full-time is a huge boost of momentum and confidence. Just, like, people thinking about the same thing you're thinking about with you and bringing their earnest efforts to solving the problem has been one of the main things people have found valuable about it, in addition to the acknowledgement that, like, you're going to have a lot of different emotions. And it doesn't mean anything necessarily. Like, your day-to-day emotion does not mean that you are a failure or that this is a bad idea or that you're a success, and this is a good idea [laughs]. Like, neither of those things is necessarily true. LINDSEY: So, let's chat a little bit about what has actually been happening since kickoff. So, two weeks ago, started. Jordyn, maybe I'll start with you. What has the first two weeks of programming looked like? JORDYN: We have been really heads down on interviewing. Josh rolled up having done a survey, which yielded a bunch of conversations already, conversations [inaudible 19:34]. So, we iterated on the scripts. You know, part of the efforts of the first couple of weeks are really geared toward having our team understand the things that Josh understands already. We need to kind of get on the same page. And so, we try to talk to as many people as we can because there's nothing...One of our theses here, beliefs, I don't know what the right word is, is that there's really nothing that drives momentum quite like team alignment, and there's nothing quite like talking to customers and hearing for yourself what their pain points are. That drives alignment. So, it's like, everyone's talking to people. I'm sure people out there have been on teams where it's like one person talks to customers, and they're translating to everybody else. "Here's what I'm hearing. So, this is what we need to build." And it's like if everybody has first-hand experience with the conversations, alignment and conviction sort of grows organically out of it. It's a lot less work to align if everybody's talking to people. So, it's always, like, the first order of business is, how do we talk to people so that we know the things you know to the level that you know them? So, we've been doing a ton of interviewing. And then, that's about driving alignment and understanding, but it's also ultimately about trying to drive focus. So, as we are talking to people and listening to them, we're really trying to listen for patterns and to map those to the market segments these people inhabit. So, like, every one of us has our own network that we're bringing to this effort, and so we start there. And we start where you are with what you have, right? I think that's, like, a Teddy Roosevelt quote: start where you are with what you have. Somebody said that. Anyway, so we all do that. But really, ultimately, we want to...building software is all about a repeatable problem that you can address with a one-size-fits-all [laughs] more or less product. What we're trying to find is, like, we're trying to listen for patterns and listen for pain points that are addressable and really focus in on a narrow niche or a situation context that we can address in some repeatable way. And I would say, at this moment, we've done a bunch of that interviewing. And we're now like, okay, we're feeling the need to focus, but we have not quite started that dive. I don't know, Josh, maybe you feel the same or different. JOSH: No, I think that's right on. I mean, you know, the first thing we all had to do was develop our own [inaudible 21:45] understanding of the problem and the potential user, right? It wasn't going to happen from me talking to people. It was going to happen from us talking to people. And then, the next step is to start to align that empathic understanding, which sounds like a thing that gets finished, but really, it's only a thing that gets started and never really ends. And then, you know, we got to be willing to make some bets, right? We got to figure out, you know, what is our hypothesis? You know, what do we think are the risky bits? And what are the things that differentiate this from being a problem? Where I think we have broad agreement across the entire team. And, literally, everybody we spoke to, the only people who don't think this is a problem are the ones who have some complicated, ridiculous system they built themselves, which they will acknowledge is not going to apply to anybody else. So, the problem is broad, right? But where exactly is the opportunity? Because at the end of the day, we're looking to build a business. LINDSEY: Josh, I saw your head nodding during the alignment discussion. How has it been aligning with the team around the problem you've been thinking so much about? JOSH: I don't know, Jordyn, how you feel about it. I've found it really fun. And it's been fun for a couple of reasons. I think the number one reason that I really like it is this is a really diverse team, right? So, Jordyn and I are in Boston and have; I would say, fairly similar tech company entrepreneurish sort of, you know, hand-wavy, miscellaneous tech people, startup folks background. We have somebody in Denmark, but she's Spanish. We have someone in maybe London right now, but he's Nigerian. And we have a member of our team in Saudi Arabia. That's a lot broader perspective. And I think that comes to play in, like, at least three different ways. They come with their own perspectives, and their own world experiences, and lived experiences, and values, and ways they talk about those things, right? Number one. They come with their own networks of people to talk to you for whom it's easy to reach. So, it's not just all hand-wavy, tech startupy folks like I'd be talking to. And, like, literally, my entire list is, like, oh, they're all people like me. Like it was really easy to get 60 people to want to talk to me because they're all people I've been talking to for a while, which is awesome and maybe a little bit uninteresting. But more than that, they all bring different language. Like, we've been struggling. Like, this is what we did. We spent what? Two hours of our hour and a half meeting this morning struggling with, like, are we having a difference, like, meaning or a difference of words? And it's not an efficient way to use your time, but it really is an effective way to use your time. Because, like, that struggle of trying to communicate what we're hearing and try to communicate what we're thinking and what we're feeling, I think, has led to a much better understanding of the problem and maybe even the opportunity than we would have had otherwise. I'm a big fan of struggle. JORDYN: Definitely. And I do feel like there's an element of this where you can never understand your customers' problems in too much detail. It's like every pass we do at this, we kind of have a deeper, more granular, nuanced sense of the problems. And just in that conversation this morning, we, like, took a problem that we had understood one way and, like, were able to break it down, like, okay, what are the actual pieces of this? Oh, there's, like, many pieces of it, right? Like you said, Josh, it feels inefficient, or sometimes it just feels like you walk out of a call and you're like, what was that about? And then only later do you find, you know, maybe when we are ideating, like, ways we might solve a problem, that conversation we had that felt really murky and, like, are we just arguing about semantics here? Are we arguing [laughs]...I don't know, like, however, you might frame that, like, actually becomes really important where you're like, oh, well, I'm very glad we took the time to break this problem down because now that we're trying to develop a solution, it becomes clear that there are many, little things we're trying to solve. And we can't solve them all at once. And so, it's great that we all have a fluent understanding of the details of that because it makes those conversations much faster so [inaudible 25:30]. JOSH: Can I say a nice thing about thoughtbot? I know this isn't, like, the, you know, [crosstalk 25:34] LINDSEY: Please. Please do. Welcome, Josh. Yeah, the floor is yours. JOSH: Let me say a nice thing about thoughtbot. The last time I did this, I did this with my best friend, Ben, a person I had literally known since I was six years old, maybe five, I don't know, since first grade. And we were entering a new space. This was, like, grocery marketing. And we talked to a crap ton of people, a lot of them doing things like going to grocery store headquarters and just talking to people and meeting people who are, like, manufacturers of a grocery product and going to trade shows with 60,000 grocers all in one giant room. Remember those days pre-COVID? We would, like, you know, take the samples with your left hand and shake with your right hand, and don't get those two things mixed up because there's a lot of people in the room with you. And we talked to easily 1,000 people, and we knew how to establish that, like, shared empathic understanding of the market and the problem really well because we were side by side. We were really well-practiced at having those conversations. And, you know, after the day of, you know, shaking hands, and meeting people, and introducing ourselves was done, we'd go back to the hotel room, shared, of course, because we were young entrepreneurs who couldn't afford to get nice hotel rooms. And we'd spend the next couple of hours, like, talking about it. We, like, talked to each other all the time. One nice thing about thoughtbot is you're really good at working remotely and working asynchronously. And if, you know, it had been up to me by myself to be like, okay, you know, Josh, you have this, like, remote team in different time zones with, you know, non-overlapping hours. How are you going to, like, work together to establish this common understanding, this common semantic model, this common syntax for talking about the problem, and the users, and the needs, and the opportunity? I'd be like, I don't know, right? And this is somebody who's, like, worked remotely for the past, I don't know, 5,6, 7 years, I mean, most of his job. But, like, still, that early bit is a thing, which, you know, I've seen a lot of thoughtbot practice and skill around. And it's not an easy skill to master. And it's one that you practiced organizationally. And that's really valuable. And I don't think I fully appreciated that until we got started. LINDSEY: Oh, thanks. Jordyn, any thoughts on that? Were you thinking about remote setup of the program, or at this point, it's just everything is remote? JORDYN: Working remotely can really deepen, in good ways, one's communication practices because it forces you to be intentional about communicating in a way that when you are co-located with people, you kind of don't have to because there's people in front of you when you talk to them. So, I agree, Josh, that thoughtbot does a good job of making that work, the work to communicate and stay on the same page, like, tangible, visible, whatever it is. That's also just something I've given a ton of thought to because I've been working remotely, like, as a primary orientation since 2010. And so, this is just, like, how I work. And it's very; I don't know, organic to my mind now that it's basically, like, if I'm doing something and I don't tell someone about it, it's like a tree falls in the forest, you know, if there's no one around to hear it. If I'm working on something and I don't tell anyone about it, it's like I didn't do anything. Communication is, like, 60% of the job. And the setpoint is, oh, I did something. Oh, I emailed someone. Maybe I should tell the team about this [laughs]. Just literally because you're not in a situation where I'm going to overhear a phone call that Josh is having because he's at the desk next to mine, or I'm going to, like, ambiently be aware that, like, Carol and Toby went into a conference room to talk about something. Like, while I maybe didn't consciously think about that, it's sort of in my periphery. Like, none of that is happening because we're not in the office together, right? We don't get to do the thing that you did with Ben, where we just talk about stuff because we're near each other. So, you really have to get into this practice of externalizing very proactively the things going on in your own mind with the team. And it's a challenge. It's work. It doesn't just happen effortlessly, right? But yeah, to say it's critical or to say it's a critical piece of how we approach the work is an understatement. I don't know, it's like, it is the work [laughs]. The making of the software, whatever, that's easy [laughs]. Communicating about making software that's hard [laughs]. So, I don't know, it's very heartening -- LINDSEY: Yeah, that makes sense. JORDYN: To hear, Josh, that you think that we do a good job of that. I think we're constantly trying to do a better job of it, frankly. I don't know if you can do [crosstalk 29:28] JOSH: That's probably why you do a good job. LINDSEY: So, I know a lot of the early weeks, days has been around alignment and doing a lot of these user interviews. Have there been any moments yet, Josh, any new, like, light bulbs for you or insights, or are we not quite there yet; it's more kind of setting the scene? JOSH: I'll share one really embarrassing one. LINDSEY: Oooh. JOSH: Which keeps on coming back to bite me. When I sent out the survey and, of course, I [inaudible 29:57] for everybody listening, basically, surveys are useless, except they're really nice lead generation tools for people who are willing to talk to you. But when we sent out the survey, at the top, it says something like, "Personal CRM survey." And I'm pretty sure that when I set up the calendar invite system, which is, by the way, for folks listening out there, like, you want to get your, like, operational side of this thing done before you start sending emails out because you're going to quickly, like, lose the ability to keep track of stuff. I think the meeting of it also, I said something like personal CRM survey. And it was, I don't know, sometime in the middle of the first week, maybe later on, when, like, I think we all realized on the team that, like, CRM is the wrong framing for this thing, right? Nobody likes CRMS [laughs]. CRMs are transactional. They're tools to sell something to somebody. You know, they are tools for, like, auditing your behavior if you're a salesperson to make sure you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. They're, like, on a cadence. Like, CRMs are tools for a world, which is not what most people aspire for their personal relationships to be. And I don't think we've quite settled on what this thing actually is. And maybe there isn't a thing yet, right? Maybe that's part of the challenge that we're having, like, this thing doesn't exist, but it's not a CRM. And three-quarters of the way through the interviews is when I asked people like, "So, what question should I have asked you?" They all said, "Well, you didn't ask me about personal CRMs at all." I'm like, "Okay, that's a good point [laughs]." So, there have been plenty of pivots inside of my head around this and the way that I think about this problem, and some of these things are still embarrassing and still kind of coming back to haunt me and maybe haunt the rest of the team as well. I don't know, Jordyn, what [crosstalk 31:27] LINDSEY: Honestly, I was hoping for something way more embarrassing, but [laughs] -- JOSH: Way more embarrassing. JORDYN: If that's your embarrassing...[laughs] LINDSEY: Yeah, you're doing great. You're doing great. JORDYN: You're doing great. JOSH: Okay, the number of video calls where I'm not wearing pants. [laughter] LINDSEY: Okay, onto the next question, Jordyn –- JOSH: Embarrassing or awkward, I don't know, yeah. [laughter] LINDSEY: Jordyn, you mentioned that Josh is not the only participant in this [crosstalk 31:52] JORDYN: Great question. LINDSEY: Tell me about, why not just Josh? What's going on? What are the developments there? JORDYN: Yeah, this is really exciting. So, we wanted to scale this program from the moment that we ran single companies [inaudible 32:08] to start because we wanted to learn as much as we could in a kind of intense, focused way from developing a process and seeing what's valuable about it. So, this was always kind of on our minds to do. And the way it worked out was just that there were two teams at thoughtbot ready and willing to serve. And we had, you know, anytime we [inaudible 32:28] the application window, we always kind of have a list of folks that we're excited about. We can't take all of them. But in this case, we had the two teams. And it also kind of fell in this nice way where we've got this team with a center of gravity, you know, GMT center of gravity, essentially. And then we have another team, which has more of a, like, U.S. center of gravity. And so, the timing kind of worked out. And yeah, I don't know, it wasn't anything more complex than that. It's just we'd always been on the lookout for how we could scale this effort––bring it to more folks. And this was the first opportunity where it appeared like it would work out. I mean, TBD if it's working out [laughs]. We can decide at the end [laughs]. But it's very exciting. It's fun. And we're really looking for ways to help these teams collaborate, you know, we'll see how. Everybody's in a Slack channel together inside of thoughtbot's Slack called thoughbot incubator. And our past participants are in there as well. And we're really trying to create an atmosphere where people can help each other, share tips, talk about what they're working on. There is actually some intersection between what Josh is working on and what the other team is working on, I think, just because, Josh, what you're working on applies [laughs] to a lot of people. I think it applies to these people, too. Anyway, that's [crosstalk 33:42] LINDSEY: It's fun to see the incubator Slack start to build out and folks talking to each other, and more thoughtboters are trickling in there. Because, Josh, you mentioned you've been a client before and a thoughtbot fan in the past. And now you can officially live in thoughtbot Slack, too, and hang out with us 24/7. JOSH: Still just a guest. LINDSEY: [laughs] JOSH: Only got my two channels. Can't DM you unless you're in one of those two channels. LINDSEY: One [crosstalk 34:11] JOSH: But yes, it is very exciting. This is better than snacks at your downtown Boston office. LINDSEY: Yeah, that's great. JOSH: I think I even added an emoji to Slack. I was pretty happy with that. LINDSEY: Oh, nice. We've got a good custom emoji library. JOSH: I mean, that's what we have for company culture, right? Is company emojis. LINDSEY: To kind of finish this out here, Josh or Jordyn, do you have any calls to action for our viewers or listeners, maybe interviews or survey participants or anything else? JORDYN: Well, certainly, if the pain point we described resonates for you [laughs], reach out. We would love to interview you. Or, like Josh said, if you actually have solved this problem [laughs] -- LINDSEY: Oh yeah, that was a good one. JORDYN: Please reach out [laughs]. That would be amazing. JOSH: But I actually meant that. So, like, hey, if you out there are a software developer, an entrepreneur, own a company that you think has really solved this, I would love to learn from that if you want to talk to us. If you are a person who struggles with this and feels like you've tried really hard to solve this, I'd love to hear from you as well. You know, did you search for a tool? Did you ask your friends? Did you try to build something yourself? Do you still use that thing you built yourself? Did you try one of those CRMs? [crosstalk 35:26] Did you try a personal CRM tool out there, right? Clay, Dex, Monica, folk, if those names resonate with you, like, I want to hear, right? I want to hear about people who feel like they're doing this thing really well or people who don't feel like they're doing as well as they should but who feel like they've put, like, real effort into it. LINDSEY: Great. Well, we're going to be catching up with Josh here every other week. JOSH: Great. LINDSEY: We'll have some updates on the thoughtbot blog. And in our alternating week, we're going to be catching up with the other founders going through the incubator. So, next week, we're going to chat with Mike and Chris. And y'all will get to meet them and hear a little bit about their journey and what's led them to validating their idea in the thoughtbot incubator as well. JOSH: And strong rec people to tune in for that one. They are extremely photogenic and very funny, and they talk slower than me, too, so a greater chance for people to understand what they're saying. So, all in all, definitely tune in for that. LINDSEY: That's a great promo. If you want to stay up to date with the incubator or are thinking about applying for the next session, I think will be in the new year, you can go to thoughtbot.com/incubator. And you can also sign up for email updates. And we can make sure to send you recordings of these interviews as well as the blog updates and then keep you up to date about when applications open and end. Jordyn and Josh, thank you so much for joining today and sharing what's been going on in the early days. It's really exciting to follow along. All right, have a great day. Thanks, everyone, for watching. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guests: Jordyn Bonds and Josh Herzig-Marx .

Reflexionando sobre los Misterios de Ecuador. ¿Todos los gobernantes del mundo están emparentados? Marx y Rothschild. Rockefeller. ¿La Historia ya está escrita? La familia Bush y los Bin Laden. Los titiriteros te engañan con lemas. El colonialismo geográfico, económico, cultural y espiritual. ¿Funcionan esos rituales? La Agenda. Henry Kissinger. Entidades no humanas extra-dimensionales. Las energías del dolor y del miedo. Relacionados: Podcast AFR Nº EXTRA 63: Influencias de grupos élite en el futuro inmediato del planeta – Momentos Místicos – Entrevista a Gustavo Fernández https://alfilodelarealidad.com/podcast-afr-no-extra-63-influencias-de-grupos-elite-en-el-futuro-inmediato-del-planeta-momentos-misticos-entrevista-a-gustavo-fernandez/ Cueva de los Tayos https://alfilodelarealidad.com/?s=Cueva+de+los+Tayos Podcast AFR Nº 317: Los menhires de Quillusara https://alfilodelarealidad.com/al-filo-de-la-realidad-no-317-los-menhires-de-quillusara/ Más sobre Gigantes en Ecuador https://alfilodelarealidad.com/?s=gigantes Más sobre Petroglifos de Katazhos https://alfilodelarealidad.com/?s=Katazhos Más sobre el Fenómeno OVNI https://alfilodelarealidad.com/?s=OVNI Nueva plataforma de cursos (https://miscursosvirtuales.net). "FORMACIONES DE GUÍAS DE TEMAZCAL" para notificar fechas, lugares, Niveles Avanzados, Retiros de formación complementarios, detalles, etc., de las próximas Formaciones que en ese sentido haremos desde "Casa del Cóndor". Interesados: súmense al grupo donde concentraremos las actualizaciones: https://www.facebook.com/groups/153766088413706 * * * Programa de Afiliados * * * iVoox comparte con AFR un pequeño porcentaje si usas uno de estos enlaces: * Disfruta de la experiencia iVoox sin publicidad, con toda la potencia de volumen, sincronización de dispositivos y listas inteligentes ilimitadas: Premium anual https://www.ivoox.vip/premium?affiliate-code=68e3ae6b7ef213805d8afeeea434a491 Premium mensual https://www.ivoox.vip/premium?affiliate-code=7b7cf4c4707a5032e0c9cd0040e23919 * La mejor selección de podcasts en exclusiva con iVoox Plus Más de 50.000 episodios exclusivos y nuevos contenidos cada día. ¡Suscríbete y apoya a tus podcasters favoritos! Plus https://www.ivoox.vip/plus?affiliate-code=258b8436556f5fabae31df4e91558f48 Más del mundo del misterio en nuestro portal: alfilodelarealidad.com

Andrew Kliman and Brendan Cooney discuss this famous principle of distribution, in the context of Marx's work and as discussed in a recent Ph.D. dissertation by Edoardo Bellando, ”From Each According to His Ability, to Each According to His Needs”: What Could it Possibly Mean, and What Lies Behind this Marxian Principle? After briefly reviewing the origins of the principle and pre-Marx advocacy of it, Andrew and Brendan talk about what the principle means and doesn't mean as well as the part it plays within Marx's overall argument in the Critique of the Gotha Program. Plus current-events segment: Mike Who? Anne Jaclard, organizational secretary of Marxist-Humanist Initiative, joins Andrew to discuss the new Speaker of the US House of Representatives, a Christian nationalist who played a key role in the Trumpite conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election.

Ever wondered why some of history's most influential atheists like Sigmund Freud, Karl Marx, and Frederick Nietzsche, were able to make such uncomfortably accurate critiques of faith? We're shaking things up in our latest episode, taking a brave step towards understanding their perspectives and how they invite us to examine our own beliefs. This isn't about questioning our faith, rather it's about strengthening it through thoughtful self-examination and open conversation.Enter the enigmatic world of Karl Marx as we explore his unique outlook on religion and faith. Marx argues that religion has become a soothing balm, a societal ibuprofen, if you will, that distracts us from the true societal issues. We delve into the compelling intertwinement of religious institutions with oppressive political and economic systems. Together, let's unearth the potential within us to address religion as an opium and strive for a more enlightened society.Finally, we edify our thoughts with the teachings of King Solomon and Jesus, reflecting on the huge responsibility of those in power to uphold justice and protect the vulnerable. The vision of God's kingdom cannot be achieved alone; therefore, we emphasize the significance of individual contribution. Remember, each of us has a part to play, and burning out isn't an option. So, join us on this thought-provoking journey, a conversation that could guide you towards a more profound understanding of your faith.Support the show

During the 1920s, American Pastor Harry Fosdick wrote a sermon called, “Shall the Fundamentalists Win?” addressing the controversies he saw rising within American churches. As the ideas of Freud, Marx, and Nietzsche grew in cultural importance, they began to influence theologians as well. So, Fosdick argued, “The liberals must go.” In this episode of White Horse Inn, hosts Michael Horton, Justin Holcomb, Bob Hiller, and Walter Strickland take on the historical details of where fundamentalism came from, explaining how it weaved its way into the Church, and what happened after.

durée : 00:48:42 - Les Nuits de France Culture - par : Philippe Garbit - Par Georges Charbonnier- Avec Emile Bottigelli et Louis Althusser - Lectures de textes extraits des oeuvres de Marx par Michel Bouquet et Pascal Mazzotti - Réalisation Georges Gravier

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Margaret talks with Sam and Amadeo about their experiences shepherding in the Swiss Alps. They talk about the problems that shepherds are facing in Switzerland with wolves, climate change, city mentalities, and right-wing propaganda. Host Info Margaret (she/they) can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Sam and Amadeo on Sheep, Wolves, and Climate Change **Margaret ** 00:16 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the times. I'm your host today, Margaret Killjoy and this is an episode about sheep...and sheep farming. Shepherding, I believe we might want to call it, in the Alps. I'm really excited about it. We've been planning this episode for a while, because we are going to be talking to two sheep farmers in the Alps about climate change and about the return of wolves and about ecology and about why the right-wing picks all the wrong talking points and a bunch of other stuff. But first, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network.  **Margaret ** 01:52 Okay, we're back. So if y'all could introduce yourselves with your name...your names, your pronouns, and I guess just a little bit about your background with shepherding. **Sam ** 02:05 All right, Hi, I'm Sam, my pronouns she/her and we are in Vienna right now. And yeah, I'm an artist and also a bit of a writer, filmmaker. I do a lot of that kind of stuff. Lately I have been working a lot with metal and smithing And yeah, I went with Amadeo on a sheep farm and Alps in Valais in Switzerland. And we want to tell you a bit about our experience. **Amadeo ** 02:38 Yeah, my name is Amadeo. He/him. I'm 38. Actually, I started to work as a teacher now. I teach biology and some other stuff, politics, and so on. And yeah, This was my third year...third summer, not third year, third season to work as a shepherd but the first time with sheep, actually. Before that I worked with cows and milking and so on. Yeah, and for me it was also the first time with sheep and the first time in this area of Switzerland. I'm Austrian. But the payment in Austria is really bad so we went to Switzerland. So we are also the working migrants. Or what do you call it in English? **Margaret ** 03:31 Migrant workers, I guess.  **Amadeo ** 03:34 Yes.  **Margaret ** 03:36 Okay, so what brought you all to sheep farming or to farming in general as like the thing to go do with your summers for work?  **Amadeo ** 03:47 Should I?  **Sam ** 03:48 Yeah, you can. **Amadeo ** 03:50 So, I had this experience in 2020 and 21, I think, and I really liked it in a way. It was very hard work back then, but I learned a lot. And we met after that, actually, and decided we would like to go together. And then we just hit up the internet and looked for work and places to go and then we found this place that sounded pretty ideal for us because it was sheep farming and no milking, which is nice. I didn't want to do the milking job and do cheesemaking and so on again, I wanted to stay outside mostly, like the whole day under the sky and not in the staple. And yeah, we found this place where you don't need your own dogs, which is nice. We were working with blacknose sheep, they're called. It's like a breed that is only bred in this area. Or not only but traditionally there. And yeah, we tried to get the job and we got it. **Sam ** 05:08 I guess we also got in because Amadeo also already had a lot of experience. And yeah, they were looking for two people there and without dogs. And yeah, I also got...I was really lucky that I was with Amadeo because, you know, like some very daily stuff, he already was prepared for this job. Like, you need a lot of some equipment and know what to take. And yeah, I was really.... **Amadeo ** 05:36 The thing was that, of course, the owners of the sheep, they want someone who has some experience because it happens often that you think, "Oh, it's nice. It's in the mountains. It's beautiful." And then people after two weeks, three weeks, they say, "No way. I can't work here. It's way too hard." I mean, it's like pretty hard work. It's outside all day. With rain, with snow sometimes. And you work from sunup to sundown every day, seven days a week. And many people underestimate it because there's like, I don't know, this idea drawn of what it's like to work in the mountains and it's always beautiful. And it is. But it's also very hard work, actually. **Margaret ** 06:22 It seems really hard. It wouldn't immediately occur to me that I could just go run out and become a shepherd like tomorrow. But I have two questions. And they're related. And one is, what does an average day look like for a shepherd in an Alpine Valley? And the second question that's related is, do you get a shepherd's crook? **Sam ** 06:42 Yeah, well, the day starts with sunrise. Around five was when the summer started. We got there in mid of June. I stayed till mid of September. Amadeo had to leave a bit earlier. And the day ends with sunset. And yeah, you bring the sheep back into the night pen. You say, "pen," huh? Like a space where there is electricity on. Pen? [Said with air of not being sure if it's the correct word] **Amadeo ** 07:15 Do you know what that is? Or, did we get the right word?  **Margaret ** 07:17 Like an animal pen? Or is it a barn? **Amadeo ** 07:19 Yeah, it's like it has no roof. It's not a barn. It has no roof. It's just a fence. An area fenced. A fenced in area with strong electricity because of the wolves. **Margaret ** 07:35 Oh, yeah. Okay, it has an electric fence. Yeah, **Sam ** 07:37 yeah, exactly. And yeah, we would move every two weeks to a new pasture with the sheep. And there were 12 farmers or sheepherders. They're not all farmers. They also have another life. Most of them have another job. They work as bus drivers in heavy industry. And yeah, they also are doing a lot of work. So they're working with us there. We were there most of the time alone, but they come on weekends. They bring us food. They set up the pastures, lines, the fences too. Yeah. And so then we stay out with the sheep all day, any weather. And yeah, also, when we moved the pasture, they came for help because it's hard to change the pasture. You sometimes have to cross a river. And.... **Margaret ** 08:29 Wait, how do you cross the river? Do you just like drive them through the river? **Amadeo ** 08:33 Yes.  **Margaret ** 08:35 Like , "Go swim!"  **Amadeo ** 08:38 It was not such. It was more like a stream than the river. A river sounds bigger than it was.  **Sam ** 08:48 It was like this, like we always make a plan in the evening. Even a drawing. We were five people planning this. And then it always ends up in pretty much chaos and completely different. And in the end they were screaming, "Sam! Go! Go!" And I was like, I even had shoes on and the first sheep I was pulling, just one sheep, with all my strength through the river. And then all the sheep follow. **Margaret ** 09:14 Okay, okay. I have friends who keep sheep but in the city. And they just keep like six of them or something. And it's just a very different thing than like a free ranging sheep. And so it's hard for me to conceptualize.  **Amadeo ** 09:30 We had 400. **Margaret ** 09:32 Yeah, that's more than six. I'm good at numbers. That's amazing. Okay, cool. **Sam ** 09:38 So part of the daily routine is also to do the basic medical care. So we were introduced to that. Sometimes they have claw problems. [Claws are sheep toes] **Amadeo ** 09:38 Problems with the claws.  **Sam ** 09:39 Problems with claws. So this was a regular thing. And sometimes using antibiotics against.... **Amadeo ** 09:58 Yeah, and we had to clean the pen every day, which was like three to four hours of work for one of us. Like shoveling shit. **Margaret ** 10:09 Yeah, okay. But you didn't answer the second question. Did you have a shepherd's crook? Do you know what that is? [Laughing] **Amadeo ** 10:17 Not a real one. We had like umbrellas. Big ones that were very useful against the sun. And so preparedness thing number one, if you stay in the high alpine areas, the altitude of the higher pastures were 2500 meters [8,200ft], you need something to cover you against the sun and against the rain. So big umbrellas were pretty handy. **Sam ** 10:46 And also the sheep have horns so it's easier to catch them. You have to learn this also, but you throw yourself on the sheep and then you tackle them down. I got really good at this. And also the blacknose sheep in the valleys, they have very long hair. And, I mean, it's breeding, right? They do it for breeding, the sheepherders. So the wool, it doesn't get any money. It's nothing. It's not worth anything anymore. But for the beauty contests that the sheep go to it's really important. It's a tradition. And they let it grow.... **Amadeo ** 11:26 They have very long face hair so some of them are basically blind. Most of them have like, how do you say something that rings? What is it? A bell? Yes.  **Sam ** 11:39 Yeah, but they get lost because they don't see anything and our job was also to make them hair ties and to tie the hair. And also the sheepherders would come to do this because we could not do this for 400 sheep. Yeah, so that was also part of the job, Yeah, it adds up. There are some different tasks. And yeah, since we would move with the sheep, maybe also that.  So also the moving is part of. You're always packing your stuff. You need to think, okay, how much food we need to...how much will we eat and how much do we need to take to the next hut. So organizing this is part of it. And then we had a small hut that was flied in with a helicopter. It was... **Amadeo ** 12:12 Flown in. Flown with the helicopters for the most remote places where we would stay with the sheep because otherwise you would have to walk a long way, like 45 minutes to the cabin every day. So they brought in a tiny hut for one person, actually.  **Margaret ** 12:47 For you all?  **Amadeo ** 12:49 Yeah, yeah. Flown with the helicopter so we could stay next to the sheep.  **Sam ** 12:55 But it was so small. Like one was sleeping on the floor, the other on this little bed. And also you always need to organize this hut when you come with very wet clothes. You have no space in there. We had a little solar panel. So this was doing.... We had a fridge at least. Very high tech. I guess 20 years before, we would not have a fridge. And some light even in the cabin and a stove. A wood stove. It got crazy hot because it's so small and yeah. So organizing this hut was also not so easy. And we were lucky because there was a lot of water in this valley. Like it's full of water. And so we would get water from the... **Amadeo ** 13:43 From the springs around.  Wells? How you say? **Margaret ** 13:48 Well, I mean, a well is a hole dug in the ground and then a spring is usually a natural spring or it's like a pipe stuck in the side of a hill that the water comes out of. **Amadeo ** 13:57 Yeah, it was a natural spring. No pipe, though. Just some moss and it was nice. **Margaret ** 14:04 And so you can just go straight from that or do you have to filter it? **Amadeo ** 14:08 It depends. We had, at some points, we could just drink it from there. We didn't filter it. At the cabins we had covered springs, wells. Or springs? So we could...it was okay. But the open ones, we had to take care of where the sheep were. If the sheep can go around then it's not so good. It was better if it was higher up where they wouldn't go. **Sam ** 14:42 Yeah also good that there were a lot of springs so the sheep would get water. They need to drink. And sometimes there were pastures where they could only drink one time in the day, so they also learn when they have to drink in the morning because we had really hot days also where these blacknose sheep with all the wool, they really get hot. And yeah, then also we learned how the sheep walk in every pasture. They have the same kind of routine that follows the sun also. And you kind of learn their ways. And also maybe when it's time to act to get the sheep back, I mean, without a dog. Yeah, you need to learn this also, I guess, when it's time. **Amadeo ** 15:33 I always said, if you want to move against their will, you are the dog, you have to run around like crazy. They have their rhythm and they have their ways, you know? **Margaret ** 15:46 So, did you all use dogs? Like also? Or is it sometimes dogs, sometimes no dogs? **Amadeo ** 15:54 No, we had none. The thing is that this kind of race [breed of sheep] is very used to people and they're not moving that far. So you can walk with them. It's okay. It's just the problem is you can have two kinds of dogs, right? You can have dogs to protect against wolves, for example. Then they live with the sheep. They're inside of the flock all the time. But it's a problem with hikers and so on. Because they attack everyone that comes near, right? **Margaret ** 16:33 This explains a little bit about my dog.  **Amadeo ** 16:36 Yeah, and so you can really have them there because it's also like a recreational area. This area, like a lot of people go hiking there and so on. So you can't have dangerous dogs. And the other thing would be like dogs that help you move the flock.  **Margaret ** 17:01 Herding dogs?  **Amadeo ** 17:02 We didn't really need it, right? Because we would have not.... I mean, it was big areas but still we would stay in one area for two weeks and then we would move on to the next area. So you didn't really need dogs to guard them the whole day. **Sam ** 17:23 But it's really a calm.... The blacknose sheep are really really calm sheep. We learned this also because like certain sheep breeds, you say, right, they run way more. They run all day. And you really need dogs there. Yeah, so we.... **Amadeo ** 17:40 But with the blacknose, no, they are kind of calm. Yes. And they have a long...during the day they have a long break time.  **Sam ** 17:48 Resting time.   **Amadeo ** 17:49 Yeah, because if it's getting hot up there, the sun is very strong. It can be like, I don't know.... Like I mean the degrees don't get up that much like in the flat areas but the sun, how you say...the sun rays are really strong. **Margaret ** 18:11 Yeah, because when you're at a higher altitude there's less atmosphere to protect you, right? I know what I mean. But I don't know the words for it. **Amadeo ** 18:22 Yeah, the sheep have some...if it's a hot day, they rest for four hours during midday. They try to find, you know, shady spots and just rest. And so at that time, you can also rest. If it's rainy, you can't rest because then they are moving too. Yeah. **Margaret ** 18:48 It makes me...the no dog thing, I'm like.... My dog was bred to have a million different jobs. My dog is just a complete mutt of a lot of different working breeds. And so Rintrah, my dog, is never quite sure whether he's supposed to be herding, or chasing, or retrieving things. He just wants to do all of it all the time. And one of the proudest things I've ever had, my proudest dog mom moment, was staying with my friend who has goats and sheep and one of the baby goats just got out of the pen and was running around the yard. And so Rintrah just herded it into a corner and then like calmly barked to inform us that he had trapped the goat. And I was just like, no one taught you how to do that. He wasn't a year old. He just was like , "This is what I do." And so like, I imagine how happy my dog would be as a sheepdog, a herding dog, which isn't necessarily true because he has adhd. This is a complete tangent. I just like talking about my dog. But you all, one of the reasons I want to talk to you, you talked about how a lot of this ties into preparedness and how it feels you've learned a lot about preparedness that you're like taking into the rest of your life by having done this work. I was wondering if you wanted to talk more about that. As a complete, look how expertly I tangented...pivoted from one topic to another. **Sam ** 20:11 Yeah, yeah, actually your podcast was really a bit with us in this time. It was cool, the topic of preparedness. And yeah, for me in this way, thinking about preparedness, what's also weighed in with this work was to get somehow familiar again with the conditions of doing this work, of ways of living in this open environment, of existing there with the sheep and in this non-human environment. And also, maybe, in this threatened environment that somehow you would.... And also the organization structures, how this work is possible, that it needs a lot of people and it needs a lot of people who do this. I mean, there's the farmers or sheepherders, they do this because they love this work. Because they have done this all the time. It's tradition. And yeah, that they somehow save something. **Amadeo ** 21:17 I mean, to talk about the practical side, if you stay outside the whole day, every day, seven days a week, you learn a lot of what you really need and what you don't need. I think that was big. Yeah, it was like very valuable to me to see what I really need. And I remember listening to your podcast, and you talk a lot about being prepared in a way, like having podcasts on your phone, for example. Because if you have to stay with sheep for 10 hours a day, you need to...you had a lot of time to think. And I loved having a good book because I could read and then think for hours about it and have like, I think, yeah, more time than in the city where you are distracted from one topic to another. So this really is good to have more, I don't know, space in my head. This was a good thing. And yeah, I think looking at, how you say, like, being outside in nature everyday and witnessing all these little changes from day-to-day. This was very, very, very special. And I think I learned so much about life and also about survival because all the animals and the plants there, they are...like, they have to survive in a very harsh environment with very short growing period, for example. I mean, lots of snow during.... Winter lasts, I don't know, for 10 months, or like, let's see, nine maybe? You know what I mean? Like when we came mid June, there was still snow. And in August before we...the end was the 16th, I think, of September, but we had to leave the higher pastures at the end of August because it was starting to snow heavily. And yeah, it's like very different too.  **Sam ** 23:30 But still to also learn about the fears and the sheepherder have. And also, yeah, it's an environment that's threatened and that will change through climate change for sure. Like it is changing. And I thought also on some days that it gets hotter and hotter every summer. And also last year, the grass was really dry. So the sheep would get this disease called, in German, Lipinkin [cannot translate], which is little bit like herpes. Yeah. And yeah, they had to be treated, every sheep, and give some.... **Amadeo ** 24:05 Some cream. But do that for 400 sheep, man. **Margaret ** 24:11 Yeah, that sounds like it would take a while.  **Sam ** 24:14 Medication for 400 sheep. So yeah, they have struggles they face. And then the wolf, of course, is a new topic. And yeah, they have to deal with a lot of stuff. Yeah. **Margaret ** 24:27 Well, let's talk about wolves. Let's talk about--you all mentioned beforehand when we were getting ready to talk about how wolves have maybe either been reintroduced or are coming back in that area to a certain degree and how that threatens this way of life but like not as much as climate change does and how it all ties into the right-wing and I kinda wanna to hear about it. **Amadeo ** 24:51 Yeah, since a few years, since I was like.... 2020 was really when I was first introduced to this life, to these people in Switzerland. First of all, I came from the city and I didn't know that it's such a big topic already. Because in Austria, we have a few wolves. But not to mention, you know, maybe a dozen. But I learned that in Switzerland since the last, I don't know, 20 years, from a dozen they now have, I think, 250. Around 250. And, like, I don't know, 25 packs or something, or something like this. Which doesn't sound so much, but it's like...it's not such a big country. And they are a lot in these areas. For example, in Valais where we stayed, we knew that the nearest wolves are just two kilometers away. And they have offspring. So for them, they need meat and so on. And I mean, the sheep are puffy, you know. It's like, go get them. **Sam ** 26:01 Also, on the other side of the mountain, actually, there was another shepherd with a, I think, also around 400.... Fuck, I don't know exactly how many sheep. And there the wolf came. And he killed, I think, seven sheeps. And also one of his dogs was attacked. So it was really close. And also the fear that we might face an attack was also really with us. And also there was a guy who takes care of the area.  **Amadeo ** 26:34 A ranger.  **Sam ** 26:35 Yeah, and he came and told us, "Hey, you really have to watch out. They're really close." So yeah.  **Amadeo ** 26:42 But the thing is, the crazy thing for me is that, of course, this threatens, in a way, people that are used to putting their cattle, putting their sheep just in a meadow and leaving them, you know. Have a look once a week or something. Of course now with the wolves, it's not possible because a wolf would kill many. They start to, you know, get into like.... If they can they kill 10 and then just take one, you know. They just.... If they [sheep] don't run away and they don't run far, you know, 100 years of, I don't know, living with humans and being petted and so on, they don't have--you know what I mean? They don't have it in them anymore to really run. Because normally, if a wolf attacks a  deer, for example, the pack can't find any deer for another week or something because they're all alert. They're alert as soon as there is an encounter. With the sheep, it's not so much. So now it's a problem, of course, but there would be solutions. You just, you need to adjust. You need to change the way it works. Yeah, you need protection. You need people to look after the sheep and so on. And for many areas, this is really hard. Because if you have an alpine pasture that is very remote, steep hills everywhere, you know, it's so hard to really fence it off or something. It's not possible. So I can understand it for the farmers. It's hard. And when we talked with them about it, they were always like, "We have to kill the wolf," you know? And it's now protected. It's under national protection. You cannot just shoot them. Even if they kill some of your sheep, you can't. And there was a big--in Switzerland you have more, how you say, basic democracy. So many of the laws are decided by a vote of everyone. So there was a big vote about if the protection status of the wolves should be loosened in a way. Not that you can just hunt them but loosen in a way that you can, I don't know, shoot some if they're attacking cattle or.... **Margaret ** 29:11 Can you shoot them if they attack you? **Amadeo ** 29:13 No, we had no gun. I mean, they won't attack  humans but... **Margaret ** 29:20 I'm an American, so I'm like....Okay, so like, I think about this a lot. Okay. I'm really...the wolf thing is so interesting to me for a thousand reasons. And one is that the destruction of wolves is such a emblem of civilization. It is such an emblem of the conquest of nature, right? And you have, for example, the no wolves in Ireland thing. You know? And that the British were very into killing all the wolves in Ireland and part of that even.... Like, so you even have the Irish rebels who would be to a certain degree, would be like, "Oh, we are the wolves. Like we are the people that they're trying to conquer," because it's like they are the unconquered, you know, wild folk, or whatever fucking bullshit colonial thing that gets thrown at them, you know? But at the same time, it's like.... So I'm kind of rooting for the wolves here with what you're describing, right? I like sheep. I don't specifically want the sheep to die. And where I live, we have coyotes, right. And we don't really have wolves where I live, but we have coyotes. And they kill, you know, they kill livestock. And they also kill dogs, right? And I have a dog. And I very actively want my dog to not be killed by coyotes. And apparently coyotes will do this thing where they'll befriend a dog, and be like, "yeah, totally, come hang out with us," and then kill and eat that dog, right? And so I have a neighbor who oversees about 400 acres. And he's from France. And he carries around a handgun. And he's so confused by this. He's like, "I came to America and now I have to carry around a handgun." But he carries around a handgun in case he's attacked by coyotes. Right? And it's like, interesting to me because it's like.... The urge to be like, "Oh, we should kill all the wolves so we can happily raise our sheep in peace," like fuck that, right? That, to me, is like the example of a negative form of peace, where you have conquered and like flattened everything. Sorry, it's a little bit of a rant, but I'm going somewhere with it. I promise. And then, but at the same time, there's this balance, right? Like, I'm not going to let a coyote kill my dog. Or if I was around wolves, I wouldn't let the wolves kill me, right? I mean, whatever I...as much as I can control that, you know? The coyotes are kind of on the other side of the hill. So I don't carry a gun around my property. But that would be a thing that I would need to consider in certain circumstances. So, it's just really interesting to me that, like, I get why the sheep farmers are like, "Oh, we got to get rid of all these wolves." But I'm also like, "Whatever. Fuck you. Let the wolves be." But then I'm also like, it's complicated. And I get why you have to defend the sheep. But I don't know. Anyway, that's where I'm going with it. I guess I wasn't going anywhere with it after all. **Sam ** 32:15 Yeah, no, I think it's a really complex situation. Yeah, there is not an easy answer to like kill the wolf or.... Yeah, I'm also pro Wolf. And there needs to be a different solution. And yeah, like to see what the sheepherders really face, what kind of struggles they face with this was really interesting. And also, I think the problem is that it's super instrumentalized [wonders if that's the right word]...instrumentalized by right-wing people politically.  **Margaret ** 32:55 Weaponized? [Offering a different word] **Amadeo ** 32:58 Yeah. In a way. I mean, the thing is, it also turned in Switzerland, for example, into a city versus countryside. Because at the vote, most people from the cities would vote for the wolf for what keeps the protection. But many people in the countryside, with also more like conservative political beliefs--and the conservative parties--said, "No, no, no, we have to change that because it threatens our way of living around in the remote areas in the countryside. And so this is somehow so stupid because.... **Sam ** 33:37 Yeah, that's also covering certain other threats, right, like climate change. They don't talk about climate change. The only thing they speak about is the wolf and the wolves. And yeah, that's really.... So it's somehow a weird thing that it's so taken over by this discourse, which is, yeah.... **Amadeo ** 33:57 Yeah, you can shoot climate change. That's the thing. It's easy to say, "Oh, it's all the wolf. We have to kill the wolf. And then we get rid of this problem." But on the other hand, climate change.... [interrupted] **Margaret ** 34:11 I can think of some ways to solve climate change with guns, but.... Anyway.... **Amadeo ** 34:16 I mean, I got so sad up there because it's so special. I mean, this area was a natural reserve too. And it has golden eagles. It has vultures, it has marmots, it has like.... **Sam ** 34:35 A lot of marmots. Everywhere. [Laughing] **Amadeo ** 34:38 And some protected bogs, some plants that are really like really rare, like at the brink of extinction. And I know, I stood there and I saw this, I don't know, this beauty and I know in 50 years from now it will be gone. Probably. It's very, very likely. Because.... I mean, some species can move.... Like, seen on a global level, they move north because it's getting warm. But on the on fucking mountain, there is an end. There is no moving more up. Because at 4000 meters or something, it's....stops, you know? Like there's nothing there. And all the farmers there, for example, if you ask them, they see these changes. They witness it. They say, "Yes, it's so much different than it was when I was a kid." And the glaciers, for example, in Switzerland--I read about it--there were since the 70s, 800 glaciers are gone. And there is still 1400 glaciers in Switzerland. And they say 2100 [year], they will be probably most of them, like 95%, will be gone. And it's so sad. But still, if you say something like, "Climate change," even those farmers there, that witness it every fucking day, they say like, "Well, you know, I don't know if you can call it that." It's ridiculous. And it's because the discourse, the political discourse, is framed by conservatives mostly. And they say, "Your problem is the wolf. We can shoot the wolf." So.... [Margaret starts talking and apologizes] No, no, it's, I'm, I'm done with ranting. **Margaret ** 36:40 No, this is so interesting for a thousand reasons. And one of them is that we always.... It goes back hundreds of years that leftists will be like, "Oh, the countryside are all right-wing. Fuck them." And this is not true, right? This is like.... The most interesting leftist revolutions have generally involved also the rural folks, right? I mean, like, famously, the fucking Russian Revolution was all rural people. And to be fair, Marx was.... I think he owned up to getting that wrong, because he was one of the people who started this myth that "The peasant is not the revolutionary subject, only the proletarian worker in the city is," right? "And the peasants are always reactionary." And I think he owned up to, when he looked at Russia, he was like, "Oh, I got that one wrong. Okay, cool." You know. It's true if we let it be true, because you have this thing where.... I think it is actually a flaw that we have to be careful with in democracy--and majority rule in general--is if people in the cities make the rules for the people in the countryside, and they don't understand the people in the countryside and they don't understand their way of life. And so it's like, really easy--even though I'm still on the wolf's side--I see it as complicated. Whereas it's like really easy to live in a city and be like, "Whatever. Fuck it," you know, because it's not their livelihood, or dog that is being threatened, right? And so I feel like, to me, it's this thing where we can't cede that ground to the right-wing, you know? And I really, I think it's cool that you all.... And that's one reason I want to talk to you about it is that there's like all of these.... It doesn't have to be this inherently conservative space to be in the countryside, to be in a rural area. And then the other thing that I was thinking about with what you're talking about, about mountains and how things retreat, is that mountains are so interesting to me because they're always where people run to, right? And you look at.... I mean, you look at Switzerland as a country and as the history of the country is people fleeing there in order to--well, I don't know enough about how Switzerland was formed--but in World War II, every time I'm like reading about Dutch revolutionaries, or whatever, they're like, "Fuck!" and they all run over to Switzerland and climb up the glaciers with their bare hands, or whatever the fuck. I don't know. I clearly know what I'm talking about. And in the United States, you have. where I live in Appalachia, that is the place that people would retreat to. That is the place where people losing wars against the conquest of the United States would go to. And it is. It's that weird thing where you're always free in the mountains, but there's only so far you can run. And that's just so heartbreaking to think about, you know? There's only so far up the mountain that these plants can migrate. On the other hand, I have a feeling that's what we're all going to be living. We're all gonna be in Antarctica. Antarctica bloomed this year, I think. I think we're being on Antarctica and on the mountains. So...  **Sam ** 39:39 Yeah, but it's interesting how it's idolized and romanticized. I mean, we had like...and how extreme, actually, the weather really changes. I really didn't know. I had never lived for three months so high up. And yeah, but also, they're so romanticized. There's this huge hype around survivalist shows, at the moment on TV, which is also really interesting and comes with this. And on the opposite for me the...Yeah, the question was how does being there in the Alps, what does this really change with me and what does it do to experience this? And yeah....  **Amadeo ** 40:20 Yeah, what does it do?  **Margaret ** 40:23 We're asking.   **Sam ** 40:23 It's still settling in. And it's about reconnecting and really realizing what it takes to do this work. And I have a lot of respect.... Also, to be in a very patriarchal space where the shepherds were only older men. Yeah, they have their ways of acting. They have their ways of being. And for me, this was really difficult. Yeah. And still, somehow to not say, "Hey, I won't enter this space," but to go there and.... Yeah, also see what community they have, you know. Yeah, to also go beyond this, I think, that they have their tradition and they have to face this, but yeah, it was also.... [Interrupted] **Amadeo ** 41:11 Maybe you can maybe explain a little bit this, I don't know, this group of people we worked for, because it was actually pretty interesting because it's a conservative area, but they were very working class and very, very nice to us. I think. They treated us really respectfully. And I know, in my other place where I worked as a shepherd, it wasn't like that. I was treated, actually, a little bad. And that's...I don't know. **Sam ** 41:45 Yeah. And to see how they are with the animals. I mean, for them, that's...they are their life. And it's this encounter.  **Amadeo ** 41:50 They love them. **Sam ** 41:51 And for us, to get to know every sheep personally, it's really interesting what connection you get. You watch them all the time. You learn, hey, they are totally different. They have totally different characters.  **Margaret ** 42:09 Yeah. Okay, my question to you is how do you, when you're working with people who are seeing this climate change happen, how do you--but but can't acknowledge it--do you have any insight or thoughts about how to connect with people about that, about how to talk to people, you know, who want to focus on the wolf instead of the bigger wolf, the climate wolf? What's the name of that wolf that's gonna eat the sun and Germanic paganism? Wow, how do I not remember that.  Anyway, whatever, at the start of Ragnarok. Someone's gonna get really mad at me for not knowing this. Fenrir! **Amadeo ** 42:51 I think we had some very good discussions at times. Right? With the guys.... Sorry? [Margaret interrupting] **Margaret ** 43:01 No, no, no, I was just...I remembered the name of the wolf that eats the sun and starts Ragnarok. It's Fenrir. Anyway, or Fenris? Oh, God, no people gonna get mad at me. Anyway, please continue. Tell you something.  **Amadeo ** 43:13 I think also, even though some of them were a little bit panicky about wolves, and so on, I think the system with the night pens and with having shepherds like us, since a few years, to look after the sheep, day and night, basically, it works pretty well. I mean, they told us they have one to five, maybe, sheep per year that are getting killed by the wolf. But that's okay. I mean, they're realistic about it, right? And when we talked about climate change, of course, it was--I mean, for me, it's not much different--I mean, they acknowledged that things are changing. They didn't use the, I don't know, scientific vocabulary or whatever. And they acknowledged in a way--or some of them at least--that there are new problems that we have to face. For example, it's too dry, and so on. Water issues.  Dying out of certain plants, animals in certain areas, and so on. They all see this. More avalanches in the winter. All of this. But, I mean, they were a little helpless. And I mean, we are also often a little helpless, because it's getting individualized. How should you react? Not drive a car? Great. I mean, we have to, you know, rise up and change all of the economy, you know, and this is hard to do. **Sam ** 44:53 But I guess, I mean, I also came there with my artistic background and as an artist and I also was filming a lot--more some of the sheeps but also us--and I think for me to show as someone coming there with a city background, but also with our backgrounds as biologists and artists, and showing how this encounter happens maybe from us as city people with also another perspective in encountering this world. I think I find this really interesting. Also showing some part of this being not exactly in this. I think that's an interesting perspective, also, for other people to see. And yeah, I'm probably cutting a bit of a movie out of this. And I think it can.... Yeah, it's good to go to this place and to show our perspective.  **Amadeo ** 45:53 I mean, I'm so grateful for what these people taught us, right, and that we were accepted and we did this job. And I think we did a good job. But also they trust us, right? **Sam ** 46:06 And what the sheep teach us.  **Amadeo ** 46:08 Yeah, the human and non-human individuals that trusted us. And it was, I think.... I'm very, very grateful. But on the other hand, also, for them, I think it was kind of interesting to have unorthodox people there, people who didn't grow up around the corner with animals, and sheep, and so on. Because for them, they all grew up with this. They inherited this from their parents and grandparents. And we came.... Actually it was a meeting of different worlds, right? We came....  **Sam ** 46:45 And I want to show this, also, this discrepancy that there is some dialog or some encounter that needs to happen. And I mean, many people are so disconnected to this world and don't know. They have lived in Switzerland all their life and they don't have so much connection to this work. Yeah. And it's cool to....  **Amadeo ** 47:05 I think, yeah, it was really...like we came from 1000 kilometers away. But even what made more of a difference was that we live in a city of 2 million people and they live in tiny mountain villages. But we came. We had a good time together, right? They were like helping us. We were helping them. It worked out. And I mean a lot of prejudicism, I had also, as a young radical from the city, dogmatic, and so on, about people back in the days. I mean, it changed over the years, but more and more when I encountered these, I don't know, social places, I have to say, yeah, they were very social with us and very helpful and very, I don't know, cool. Very cool also. Even though they have like strange habits like drinking coffee that isn't coffee but.... [Laughing] **Margaret ** 48:04 Wait, what do they drink that isn't coffee? **Amadeo ** 48:07 It's called Lupinion. It's made out of Lupin, I think. I don't know the English word, like some grain. And it has no caffeine at all. And they always say, "Let's have a coffee and then they drink this." **Sam ** 48:21 But with a lot of schnapps.  **Margaret ** 48:24 I don't drink caffeine. So I'm like, I want to drink that shit. That sounds great. **Sam ** 48:28 That would be the place for you to go.  **Amadeo ** 48:32 They put Apple booze inside like apple schnapps instead.  **Margaret ** 48:38 Okay, well, are there any last things that we didn't cover that you wish we had? Or things that you're really excited to say about sheep and climate change? Oh, does it make you want sheep? That's my...that was like the question. Like, are y'all gonna get sheep? Do you have a yard? I don't know where you live. **Amadeo ** 49:00 We live in the city. But we are planning to move in the coming years. And actually, I would love to have some sheep.  **Sam ** 49:10 Maybe not 400. **Amadeo ** 49:16 Some 20 or something? 15. **Sam ** 49:18 Or we will continue doing this work. It's cool to also work with them and then for a long time be with them. I guess we're.... And then also say, "Hey, gratz [congratulations], that was the summer." . And give them back. **Amadeo ** 49:35 Yeah, like sometimes it's nice to play with kids but having your own kids it's kind of a different cup of tea. **Sam ** 49:42 Like co-parenting. [Laughing] **Amadeo ** 49:45 Maybe some sheep co-parenting? Yeah. Right. **Margaret ** 49:51 Alright, well, is there anything that you want to plug, that you want to direct people towards, either your work or something else that's going on that you want to draw attention to.  **Amadeo ** 50:01 I wanted to say, because I always said while I was there, that it needs more people to help the little farmers deal with the wolves, because if we don't help them then they will always tend to the parties that say, "Oh, let's just get rid of the wolves." And I found out that there are some NGOs to do that, that come from an environmental side. There's one group called Au Pair. I think they're in the French speaking part of the country, mostly. And they actually sent volunteers to alpine pastures where there are wolves nearby, to help, to guard, and also monitor the wolf activities. So it's for research and also to help the farmers. And if I can't go next year to work as a shepherd, I will volunteer there. And I think it's a great, great thing and somehow a solution for how ordinary people can get in touch with the small farmers and help with maintaining the alpine pastures that are also so important for biodiversity. Yeah. And to help save the wolf from people. **Margaret ** 51:22 Yeah. No, that's so good. Because instead of just abandoning people to being like, "Whatever, the wolf is good and you suck," just being like, "Hey, what will it actually take? Like what resources do you actually need in order to be able to continue to do your work in a world full of wolves?" That's cool. **Amadeo ** 51:40 Yeah, I think it needs a lot of growing together, the countryside and the cities, in understanding and talking and like supporting each other. **Sam ** 51:51 Hey, thanks for having us, Margaret.  **Margaret ** 51:54 Yeah, thanks so much. And good luck next year with the sheep season. And I'll talk to y'all at some point soon I hope. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, go try to convince sheep and wolves to be friends. No, that's not going to work. Hang out with sheep and then separately hang out with wolves. Actually, you probably just shouldn't even hang out with the wolves. You should probably leave them alone. That's pretty much what we want. But that's what you can do. You can also support this podcast. You can support this podcast happening by helping us pay our transcribers and our audio editors. I say this is if there's a plural of each, but there's actually one of each. And thanks to those editors. And thanks to everyone who helps us do that. And the way we do that is through Patreon. This podcast is published by Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We have several other podcasts, including one called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, as well as one called Anarcho Geek Power Hour. And if you support us on Patreon, we'll send you a monthly feature that we put out. We'll send it anywhere in the world. And if you pay us $20 a month, I'll read your name out right now. In particular, I'd like to thank Eric, Perceval, Buck, Julia, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous, Funder, Janice & O'dell, Aly, paparouna, Milaca, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, S.J., Paige, Nicole, David, Dana Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Machaiah, and of course, Hoss the Dog. I hope everyone is doing as well as you can and don't let the people divide us along cultural lines because we just shouldn't let that happen. Talk to you all soon.

This month the guys look at two films with historically-important Marx appearances that were restored and released on a 2020 Blu-ray…now do you get the title? First, Matthew and Noah dissect Harpo's brief supporting turn in the obscure 1925 silent romantic-comedy “Too Many Kisses”. They speculate on how Harpo came to be in the film and point out nuances in his performance that show the Harpo we know and love. Then they examine the ‘Theatrical Agency' scene from the 1931 Paramount promotional film “The House That Shadows Built”. The guys discuss the circumstances which led them to shoot a skit that pre-dates “I'll Say She Is”, and wonder if it's Zeppo's greatest performance.

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