The Art of Holiness

Not that Jonathan Edwards ... the other one! The one who has served our podcast week in and week out this year as our faithful, enthusiastic, encouraging and extraordinarily talented producer. Jonathan is part of the Seedbed Publishing farm team, serving as one of their creatives in the area of video production. Because he has been with us behind the scenes for every single episode, I wanted to have a conversation with him about the episodes that made the biggest impression on him. A great conversation with a really sharp and Spirit-infused man. I hope you listen. 

Today, we get the joy of chatting about all we learned this semester as we entered into this experiment of mentoring by podcast. Taylor, Katherine, Brandy and I talk about who we talked to, what we learned, and where we head from here. I hope you listen. 

Dr. Cheryl Bridges Johns – distinguished visiting professor at United Theological Semianry and professor of Christian Formation at Pentecostal Theological Seminary for 35 years –  is a long-time friend of The Art of Holiness, and of me. She has been a great mentor over the years. You can find three other conversations with her in our vault so look them up. Today, we are also joined by her husband, Dr. Jackie David Johns, professor of practical Theology at Pentecostal Theological Seminary for 40 years. Together, they have written books, pastored congregations and raised great kids. Today, they come to talk about their latest project – a tremendous resource for pastors and laypeople alike –  Encountering the Living Word: Relational Inductive Bible Study.

Dr. Nicole Massey Martin is a strong voice in the American Christian movement with decades of experience at the executive level. She currently serves as the Chief Operating Officer at Christianity Today, and currently hosts The Disrupters podcast (a CT production). Beyond her roles with CT, she is an author, preacher and teacher -- a solid academic, with degrees from Vanderbilt, Princeton and Gordon-Conwell. She is the founder and Executive Director of Soulfire International Ministries, with a mission of helping pastors, churches, and young leaders thrive. Dr. Massey is a member of Kingdom Fellowship AME Church in Maryland, and she has a word for us today about bringing the crucifixion and resurrection into our daily vocations as followers of Jesus. This is a deep and meaty conversation. I hope you listen. 

If you listen to this podcast even occasionally, you know that I love discovering "treasures in a field" -- people I didn't know before who I'm just now discovering, and who are full of wisdom and goodness. Well, I just found another one! Christopher Lohrstorfer, VP of Academic Affairs at Wesley Biblical Seminary (and pastor of a local church, too!)  is the author of Learning to Breathe: Mastering the Art of Spiritual Respiration. It is all about how to the faith is designed to be lived out. We breathe in the presence and power of God, going deep into the Spirit. Then we breathe out the life God calls and equips us to lead. This pattern -- breathing in and breathing out -- breeds healthy followers of Jesus, which is what we all want more of. So this is a good one, friends. Listen all the way through. 

Reverend Doctor Petey Bellini is brilliant and faithful and deeply spiritual and that's what makes conversation with him so good. He is an interdisiplinary academic, which a gift to the rest of us. It means he can connect the dots between the seen and the unseen, and he does so in the most accessible way. In his latest book, he writes about the intersection between neuroscience, emotional health and spirituality. This is a good one! 

Rev. Dr Christian Selvaratnam serves as the Dean of Church Planting at St. Hild College, York, England. He is also the founder of the Centre for Church Planting at St. Hild and works extensively with Seedbed to train pastors and planters. He has decades of experience on staff with Alpha International, as Head of Alpha UK and and as its National Director. He has planted churches and written books, including The Craft of Church Planting: Exploring the Lost Wisdom of Apprenticeship, Why Plant Churches? Theological and Practical Reasons, and Alpha as a Church Planting Tool (London: Alpha International, 2017). He is a good friend through Asbury and a solid follower of Jesus. It is a privilege to have him sharing on the Art of Holiness about church-planting, Alpha and other things. 

I love finding treasures in a field. Finding Doug Koskela and his work was delightful. He serves through the Free Methodist Church as a professor at Seattle Pacific University, where he teaches Wesleyan Theology, epistemology of theology, vocation and ecclesiology. His is a member of the Wesleyan Theological Society and author of three books. Today, we'll focus on his latest, The Radiance of God: Christian Doctrine through the Image of Divine Light. We will also dip into the content of a forthcoming book – Made Known to Them: An Invitation to the Study of Theology – which is an invitation to the study of theology, mainly for beginners, framed by the Emmaus road story in Luke 24. Watch for it at the end of this year. 

Winfield Bevins is some of everything good. He is a church planter who planted both a church and a network before taking on the role of Director of the Center for Church Multiplication at Asbury Theological Seminary. He has since stepped out of that role to lead Creo Arts, a non-proift dedicated to fostering creativity within the Church. Winfield is a prolific writer with books to his credit about Anglicanism, discipleship in the home, church planting, and the creative arts. As others have said, Winfield is a hands-on creator of ideas, books, churches, movements, icons … all of it spreading joy and Jesus. 

Dr. Chris Bounds, professor of theology at Asbury Theological Seminary, has literally written the book on holiness … or should I say books. His most recent, co-authored with Matt Ayers and Caleb Friedman, is called Holiness: A Biblical, Historical, and Systematic Theology. But wait! There's more! Dr. Bounds has also done laudable work in the area of worship and has written a book together with Constance Cherry and Mary Brown called Selecting Worship Songs: A Guide for Leaders. In fact, he tells me he has collaborated over the years with Constance Cherry, one of the foremost scholars on worship, and interim President of the Robert Webber Institute for Worship Studies. She has written multiple books on the subject of worship leadership, including The Worship Architect: A Blueprint for Designing Culturally Relevant and Biblically Faithful Services. So that's the kind of person Chris is collaborating with as he delves into the study of worship. And that's what we wanted to talk to him about today. I hope you listen. 

Dr. Ellen Marmon serves Professor of Christian Discipleship at Asbury Theological Seminary. For years, she served on the leadership team of Asbury's Doctor of Ministry program, and helped so many pastors work their way through dissertation projects. She has lived the discipling life through and through, so it is a pleasure to introduce her to the Art of Holiness community. We talk about the culture of discipleship, evangelism, and some other things. I hope you listen. 

This episode drops on the first day of the Mega-Manila Annual Conference, where Dr. Luther Oconer presides as Conference Superintendent in the Global Methodist Church. So its fitting that we should listen to him today and get excited about the kind of faith and leadership that is leading that Conference.  Luther Oconer currently serves on the faculty of Asbury Theological Seminary, as an officer with the Wesleyan Theological Society, in addition to his role within the GMC. His focus as an academic is on movements … like the Holiness movement, the Pentecostal and charismatic movements, and church renewal in general. His book, Spirit-Filled Protestantism: Holiness-Pentecostal Revivals and the Making of Filipino Methodist Identity was awarded the Wesleyan Theological Society's Timothy L. Smith and Mildred Bangs Wynkoop Book of the Year Award in 2018. We wanted to talk to Luther because he not only has studied Spirit-filled Methodism, but has lived it, so we hope you learn that's good a lot from this episode. 

Some of our best podcasts have been with historians, and today will be no exception. This is a great conversation. Beth Allison Barr is The James Vardaman Endowed Professor of History professor at Baylor University, specializing in Medieval and Early Modern England, Women's History, Medieval Sermons, and Church History. She received degrees from University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and Baylor University. While she has written extensively on the historic role of women, especially in medieval England, her best selling books have focused on women in the evangelical world. If you haven't read The Making of Biblical Womanhood, that's a must read. And releasing in March … on pre-order through Amazon .. is Becoming the Pastor's Wife: How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman's Path to Ministry. I've had a chance to preview the book, and my goodness … what an insightful study of the relationship between the decline of women's ordination and the rise of the pastor's wife. Oh, and we reference a blog I wrote some time ago on the ESV. Find it here. 

We had Dr. Tim Gaines on the podcast last fall, after I discovered him while speaking at a Salvation Army event. Tim is a professor of religion at Trevecca Nazarene University in Nashville, where he teaches courses in theology and ethics and directs the graduate program in theology and biblical studies. He also serves as a pastor at Trevecca Community Church and as the director of The Center for Wesleyan-Holiness Formation, which serves the Church by advocating for scholarship in the Wesleyan tradition. Dr. Gaines has coauthored and co-edited multiple previous titles, including Walking the Theological Life, Kings & Presidents (a book on politics and the Kingdom of God), and a book simply called Christian Ethics. I knew when we talked last time that we'd want him back so this time we'll talk about moral formation, ethics, the reason for theology, and even get a second dose of secularity.  

Brian Russell is a fine academic, a strong leader, a giving spirit, a remarkable multi-tasker, and man of deep prayer. That mix of gifts and traits makes him a rare treasure in this field called the Body of Christ. He is also an author, blogger, coach, mentor to many, and among the most accessible academics we know. He is a professor at Asbury Theological Seminary in Orlando, Florida, who has authored a book on the devotional reading of scripture called Astonished by the Word … and he has also written and modeled extensively the practice of centering prayer … including a book called Centering Prayer: Sitting Quietly in God's Presence Can Change Your Life. On his website, brianrussellphd.com, he makes the bold statement, “I can help you thrive and flourish as the person God created you to be.” And that's his mission. It is to help the rest of us flourish as followers of Jesus. We are having him back today because his gifts were the requests of those being mentored this semester … and also because he has so much to offer. 

Today's conversation is with Dr. Grant Wacker -- academic and author, and distinguished professor emeritus at Duke Divinity. His studies have focused on American Christian History, particularly on Pentecostalism and American culture. Today, we are talking to him about the Pentecostal life, and also what we might learn from the significant ministry of Billy Graham about how to do evangelism in the 21st century. Dr. Wacker has written two books on that topic – America's Pastor: Billy Graham and the Shaping of a Nation, and One Soul at a Time: The Story of Billy Graham.

Linda Adams serves as a Bishop in the Free Methodist Church. She first served in the U.S. and now serves in Canada. In this episode, we talk about doing evangelism in a thoroughly post-Christian or secular culture, and also about prophetic gifts, and secularity, and some other things, too. As our producer said of this episode, this one "spanned just about everything.  Such wise and humble insight into every topic she spoke about." Oh, and we referenced that amazing talk on holiness that Miriam Swanson did at New Room a few years ago. Listen to the link after you listen to the podcast!

Bishop Keith Cowart has served as a bishop in the Free Methodist Church since 2019. With has degrees from Asbury Theological Seminary and a very warm heart toward the Global Methodist movement, Keith brings a lot of affinity to this conversation. He is a Methodist-minded follower of Jesus who gets us. I am finding some of the best wisdom comes from friends in other tribes and it was one of those conversations with Bishop Cowart that made me realize just how much we can learn from each other. So I've asked my good friend to come and share with us what the Free Methodist Church has learned about healthy denominational systems. 

J.D. Walt is one of my smartest friends and he's been here before. He has served as Dean of the Chapel at Asbury, and as Chief Sower at Seedbed. He's the creative genius behind so many good things happening in the Methodist stream. As a mutual friend says of him, "If you cut JD, he bleeds Jesus and vision!" Amen to that! In this conversation, we talk about the marks of a movement. Watch for the blog that covers his list, so you can print it out and make it part of your own ministry. Its just good stuff. 

Bishop Leah Hidde-Gregory is a leader in the Global Methodist Church, serving as both Conference Superintendent (Mid-Texas Conference) and General Bishop. She served as chair of the Transitional Leadership Council when the GMC was just coming online, and she has inspired so many toward vocational ministry. Our conversation with her today is about challenges and opportunities for women in spiritual leadership. A great conversation with someone who has taken a non-traditional path into spiritual leadership. I hope you listen.  

Today's conversation with Dr. Joe Dongell is part two of a discussion about holy love. Listen for part one on the October 21 AoH episode. Joe, as he prefers to be called, is part of the team at  Asbury Theological Seminary, where he serves as Professor of Biblical Studies. Dongell has several books to his credit, including a commentary on the gospel of Mark (must-read) and a small but packed book called The Most Excellent Way, at seedbed.com. Brilliant and faithful and easy to listen to … if you like thinking deeply about biblical concepts, you'll love this one!

In today's episode we kick off a new project for 2025. I'm combining mentoring with podcasting, with the hope that we might all work together to raise up three women into spiritual leadership while we all enjoy the same amazing conversations we've grown used to at AoH. Want to learn how it all fits together? Listen to this episode! 

In this final episode of 2024, Pierce returns to AoH to chat with Carolyn about her election to the role of Bishop in the Global Methodist Church. AND!... Carolyn shares a new series coming in January, 2025. Listen all the way through to get to the good stuff! 

David Thomas was a business professional before becoming an ordained pastor, serving in both the local church and on staff with Seedbed Publishing and the New Room Conference. He serves on the Board of Alpha USA and helps to steward a new movement on college campuses called The Awakening Project. I've known David for years and can attest to his passion for seeing an awakened spirit in the Church of Jesus Christ. Today, we talk about a piece he wrote that got my attention and interest on Methodism as an awakening movement. 

Today we're going to talk about the legacy of a great Bible teacher and about the sanctifying power of God. Warren Weirsbe's commentaries and Bible studies are legendary. Weirsbe's commentaries and Bible studies were on every shelf and in every small group in the late 20th century, and I keep them on my shelf. So I am excited to talk to Dan Jacobsen, Weirsbe's grandson, who has spent the last two years shaping an unpublished manuscript written by his grandfather. A great conversation about faithfulness, legacies, and the vocation of study. 

Dr. Craig Keener is a professor at Asbury Theological Seminary, where he teaches subjects as varied as New Testament background (check out his HUGE commentaries on Acts ... yes, multiple volumes), the historical Jesus, miracles (check out a previous podcast with him on this subject), and ethnic/racial reconciliation. Dr. Keener received his M.Div. from an Assemblies of God seminary and his PhD from Duke. A prolific writer, deep thinker, and global churchman, Dr. Keener has much to say about what we can learn from Acts about the Church today ... and that's where out conversation will focus. I hope you listen. 

Dr Kenneth Collins is a theologian and professor who has been teaching at Asbury Seminary since 1995 (he and I arrived on that campus at the same time!). He is internationally known as a scholar of historical theology who has spoken in England, Finland, South Korea, Japan, Russia, Estonia, Costa Rica, Brazil, Australia … lots of places. And that's why I want to talk to him today. I want to talk about how our theology travels. Be sure to check out his latest book, Jesus the Stranger: The Man from Galilee and the Light of the World, published by Seedbed in 2021. I have such deep respect for this man and his work and it is an honor to introduce him to you today, so we can talk about what it looks like through a Methodist lens to share Christ with the whole world. 

This one is like drinking from a chocolate fountain. Dr. Joe Dongell (Asbury Theological Seminary), who is not just a New Testament Bible scholar but a legit theologian. In this podcast, he gives us his best thinking on the biblical notion of love, and helps us understand love as the center of everything. He goes deep on this, and still barely scratches the surface so we'll have to have him back. What a great conversation. I hope you listen .

I met Tim Gaines when we were teaching together at a Salvation Army Bible camp (where I discovered so many very cool people). Tim immediately captured my attention with his teaching on what it means to serve the gospel in a secular culture, and that's what we'll be talking about on this podcast. Dr. Gaines serves as Associate Professor of Religion at Trevecca Nazarene University, where he teaches theology and ethics and directs a graduate program in theology and biblical studies. He has authored and coauthored several books, including Christian Ethics, Kings and Presidents: Politics and the Kingdom of God, and A Seat at the Table: A Generation Reimagining Its Place in the Church. He also serves as a pastor at Trevecca Community Church. 

Together with her husband, Bill, Diane Ury serves as the National Ambassador for Holiness in The Salvation Army. That's the best job title I've ever heard, and I admit to being just a little jealous of her job! I also admit to being a bit of a fan-girl. Diane  excels at everything her job description calls for --  a strong preacher, inspired teacher, articulate writer, and courageous communicator of the Salvation Army's mission and its holiness doctrine and history. You are going to love this person and this conversation. 

My brilliant and beautiful friend Sandy is on AoH for the third time with this episode, making her the most interviewed (and also the most listened-to) of our guests. We love Sandy Richter! This time, she is talking about Deborah the prophet, subject of a newly released study in the Epic of Eden series. Professor at Westmont College, Dr. Richter is an OT scholar and an epic (pun intended) story-teller. You'll love this episode!

Rev. Dr. Jerry Kulah is an Elder in the United Methodist Church. He serves as an Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher, and Administrator.  Since 1997, he has served in the Liberia Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church, and currently serves as Vice President of the School of Graduate and Professional Studies at the Graduate School of Theology at United Methodist University (UMU). He also serves as the General Coordinator of the Africa Initiative, an advocacy group within the three Central Conferences of Africa that is committed to upholding the practice of biblical Christianity within the church. This is how we met, as we've contended together for orthodoxy on two continents. Today, we talk discipleship. This is an especially important conversation for those seeking a truly global expression of Methodism.  

Today, we're talking to someone I met while helping another friend with her doctoral work. One of her professors on that journey was Winn Collier, who is the Director of The Eugene Peterson Center for Christian Imagination, and Associate Professor of Pastoral Theology and Christian Imagination at Western Theological Seminary. He is also the authorized biographer for Eugene Peterson's story. His biography of Peterson, called A Burning in My Bones, was released in 2021. He has other books to his credit, as well, and it is actually one of those other books we'll talk about today. His book, Holy Curiosity, looks a nine questions Jesus asked people he met on the journey. Collier's study of those questions unleashes in me a curiosity about questions in general and how we might use them in the work of becoming holy. In this conversation, we'll talk about questions and imagination and Eugene Peterson and curiosity and holiness. Enjoy. 

Today, I'm talking to Amy and Rob Dixon, authors, academics, and ministry leaders. Amy is an editor, marketer, and the author of several children's books. Rob serves on the faculty of Fuller and on staff with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Together, they've written a marvelous children's book called Penny Preaches,  illustrated by Jennifer Davison. This beautiful book is why I got in touch with them. Rob has also written book on a related topic called Together in Ministry: Women and Men in Flourishing Partnerships. Relevant conversation, close to my heart. I hope you get some good stuff from this one. 

Sean McGever talks like an academic, but he has the heart of a pastor and the gifts of a prophet. He has a PhD from the University of Aberdeen, and serves on the faculty of Grand Canyon University. He is also an area director for Young Life in Phoenix, Arizona and has written books on evangelism and the theology of conversion. Today I want to talk with him about his latest book — Ownership: The Evangelical Legacy of Slavery in Edwards, Wesley, and Whitefield. McGever wants to get us beyond the subject matter to the deeper issue of how we live this life, how we make decisions, what legacy we want to leave. He is using history to do a very pastoral thing, and I am honored to have this opportunity to learn from someone who takes the notion of witness seriously. 

Dr. Matt O'Reilly is Lead Pastor of Christ Church in Birmingham, Alabama, a fellow of the Center for Pastor Theologians, and Director of Research at Wesley Biblical Seminary, where he provides leadership for their Doctor of Ministry program. He has a ton of honors to his credit, and it doesn't take much of a listen to understand why. Today we talk to him about two things he is passionate about: holiness and Methodism. He has published books on both this month -- Free to Be Holy: A Biblical Theology of Sanctification (published by Seedbed) and Reconstructing Methodism (published by The Francis Asbury Society). I hope you will be as encouraged as I am by the relevance of both topics for our real lives in this real world today. 

Caleb Campbell has been a pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, since 2006 and lead pastor since 2015. He is a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary and serves as the regional director for the Surge Network. Today, we're talking to him about a passion of his that syncs with this season. Caleb has just released a book called Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor, that addresses the whole issue of Christian nationalism. But listen! He does so from the perspective of a missionary and pastor. It is a compassionate look at part of our culture that needs the tender care of Jesus. I'll tell you now that parts of this conversation may rattle your worldview, but I'm asking you to listen all the way through and consider how God might have you rethink your response to those with whom you disagree in this election season. 

This is Lo's second time on our podcast, but he brings a whole new subject to the table this time. Urban Hymnal is a very cool project unfolding in the heart of Houston, Texas. It is a collection of (hundreds, yall!) creatives and young adults gathering weekly for worship and community. Lo and the design team have developed a beautiful structure to hang it all on, so there is a lot to learn here. I hope you'll listen with a spirit open to all the Spirit is doing. 

Dr. Elesha Coffman is a professor at Baylor University and the author of several books … including her latest, Turning Points in American Church History: How Pivotal Events Shaped a Nation and a Faith. I want to thank Scot McKnight for his review of this one, which got me very interested. So let's talk history and Holy Spirit … 

This is one of those conversations I just wanted to have because I don't know a lot of house church pastors and what they do seems like a whole other world to me and I want to know more. So today, we're interviewing Jeremy and Jenny Auvil, who had a remarkably strong experience as pastors of a house church in Alabama. Jeremy is currently serving as the Lead Pastor of Clearbranch Methodist, a GMC church in Trussville, Alabama. He comes to Clearbranch after years of serving in student ministry, as an associate, and for a number of years as the pastor of a house church called Crosshaven. Jenny manages a network of fitness centers and is remains very involved in the ministry life of their family. I'm talking to them today because I'm curious about their experience as house church hosts and I love the creativity at play in the house church model. Can it work in a Global Methodist world? That's what we'll talk about today. 

Oops! Uploaded the wrong "Bryan Loritts" earlier this week, so let's try this again. Dr. Loritts has written a deep and inviting book about the art of friendship. In an age when we are all scattered, smothered and covered (thank you, Waffle House, for that imagery), it is good to be reminded of the importance of being unified, loving, and full of grace. I hope you find much to inspire you toward relational health as you listen in ... 

Dr. Bryan Loritts is a prolific writer, dynamic preacher, and strong advocate for multiethnic communities of faith. We've talked with him before on The Art of Holiness. This time, we have a great conversation around his latest book, Enduring Friendships: : Sticking Together in An Age of Unfriending. It is a great conversation, well timed for a season when division is is our go-to. Here, we discover another option ... the way of Jesus. 

Great conversation! Dr. Matt Friedeman has been a professor at Wesley Biblical Seminary since 1987, where he teaches evangelism and discipleship. He is the author of The 5Q Method of Discipleship, The Doctrine of Good Works, and Discipleship in the Home … all of which we'll talk about today. Matt is also an ordained Nazarene minister who serves as the founding pastor of Day Spring Community Church in Clinton, Mississippi. He is all about discipling students, so I've brought a student pastor with me into this discussion.

Dan Wilt is an author, speaker, worship leader, song writer, and student of the Holy Spirit. He is part of both the Anglican Communion and the Vineyard Church and has taught in conferences, university settings, seminaries, and churches across streams of the Body of Christ. He is part of the Seedbed and New Room families and has published several books through them, the latest of which is all about the Holy Spirit. Receive the Holy Spirit is more than a book. It is a primer and a spiritual guide — a 70-day practice of Scripture reading, prayer, and reflection that spans the first moments of creation all the way to today.

Mark Tooley is brings a wealth of real-world experience to his post as president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy and editor of IRD's foreign policy and national security journal, Providence: A Journal of Christianity & American Foreign Policy. He worked eight years for the Central Intelligence Agency and is a graduate of Georgetown University. He founded UMAction, a subset of IRD. He is both author of and contributor to a number of books, including  The Peace That Almost Was: The Forgotten Story of the 1861 Washington Peace Conference and the Final Attempt to Avert the Civil War (2015). He has written for multiple publications you know the names of, like The Wall Street Journal and National Review. All this is to say that Mark is kind of a rock star, and yet one of the most approachable and faithful men  I know who is speaking into American politics and culture. Today we talk to him about Methodism, democracy, the rise of Christian nationalism and anti-semitism, and of course, about holiness.