Podcasts about fuller seminary

With a B3 organ, a prophetic imagination, and a heart broken wide open by grace, gospel music legend Andraé Crouch (1942–2015) left an indelible mark on modern Christian worship music. In this episode, Stephen Newby and Robert Darden offer a sweeping yet intimate exploration of his life, spiritual vision, and genre-defining genius. Together with Mark Labberton, they discuss their new biography, Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. Through laughter, lament, and lyrical memory, Newby and Darden—both scholars at Baylor University and coauthors of the first serious biography of Crouch—share stories of discovering his music, the theological and cultural forces that shaped it, and why his legacy matters now more than ever. They offer insights into modern musical history, spiritual reflection, and cultural analysis, inviting us into the soul of a man who helped bring modern gospel into being. Episode Highlights “Musical genius is where observation, curiosity, imagination, and humility are baked in the oven.” “He was always tracking what was going on in the room and in his heart. He understood the cues, clues, and codes of what God was doing.” “Andre felt it was important that the music was just as inspired as the lyrics. It was total praise.” “'Soon and Very Soon' is an ancient future song—we have to keep singing it, especially now.” “Andraé burned out a lot of musicians—but all of them adore him to this day.” Helpful Links and Resources Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch by Stephen Newby and Robert Darden (Penn State University Press) Black Gospel Music Preservation Project (Baylor University) “Jesus is the Answer,” by Andraé Crouch “Through It All,” by Andraé Crouch “Soon and Very Soon” **by Andraé Crouch People Get Ready!: A New History of Black Gospel Music by Robert Darden About Stephen Newby Stephen Michael Newby is a composer, conductor, and scholar. He serves as the Lev H. Prichard III Endowed Chair in the Study of Black Worship at Baylor University and is a professor of music in the Baylor School of Music. A widely recognized expert on gospel, jazz, and Black sacred music, he is also affiliated with the Black Gospel Music Preservation Project as an ambassador and collaborator. He is co-author of Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. About Robert Darden Robert F. Darden is Emeritus Professor of Journalism at Baylor University and founder of the Black Gospel Music Preservation Project. A former gospel music editor at Billboard magazine, Darden is the author of numerous books on gospel music history, including People Get Ready: A New History of Black Gospel Music and Nothing But Love in God's Water. He is co-author of Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. Show Notes Andraé Crouch called the “father of contemporary modern gospel” for his groundbreaking influence on the genre Guest Stephen Newby holds the Lev H. Pritchard III Chair in Black Worship and Music at Baylor University Guest Robert Darden is emeritus professor of journalism at Baylor and founder of the Black Gospel Music Preservation Project Labberton celebrates the book's narrative, musical, and sociocultural scope Crouch grew up in a Pentecostal context that encouraged musical exploration and spiritual improvisation Gospel rooted in KoGIC (Church of God in Christ) tradition, blending Beale Street sounds with evangelical fervor Darden describes Crouch's early music as “jazz, pop... but wait, it is gospel—they're singing about Jesus” Crouch and his sister Sandra composed “Jesus Is the Answer,” considered the first modern praise and worship song The book includes more than 200 interviews from gospel musicians, friends, and collaborators Crouch read the room and followed the Spirit—every performance was improvisational, responsive, alive “Through It All” composed after the heartbreak of a failed relationship; the grief birthed one of his most lasting songs Gospel music as lament and praise: “We hear the pain, we hear the resolve, we hear the lament turning to praise” Crouch's “Take Me Back” begins with Billy Preston on B3 organ—“He hasn't forgotten the church,” says Newby Earth, Wind & Fire, Motown, and classical influences shaped Crouch's orchestration and arrangements Darden: “He wanted the music to sound as good as the words. It was obsessive—but it was for God.” Andre's collaboration with producer/drummer Bill Maxwell led to a string of gospel albums with unmatched quality “We are going to see the King”: the timeless hope of “Soon and Very Soon” rooted in the Black spiritual tradition Crouch's music was not only groundbreaking—it was pastoral, prophetic, and profoundly personal Evangelistic to his dying breath, Crouch witnessed to hospital staff and janitors alike The book's subtitle “Transformative Music and Ministry” is more than academic—it's biographical theology Newby and Darden's friendship mirrors Crouch and Maxwell's cross-cultural collaboration Soon and Very Soon offers readers a chance to read with phone in hand—listening and learning simultaneously “Jesus is the answer” remains a musical and theological call across generations Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Religious liberty is a topic that is always worth the time to think about and talk about because the concept is a uniquely American contribution to the history of western civilization. Also, religious liberty is a uniquely Baptist contribution to the history of the American experiment. We know historically there is a give and take in the relationship between church and state and we are forever trying to assess in particular instances exactly how that relationship should play out. Right now, there are shifts being made by the United States Supreme Court and so, the proper understanding of government and organized religion is once again a topic worth examining. So, let's talk about religious liberty.Andrew T. Walker, “The scandal of compromising evangelical elites,” June 9, 2025.Joseph Backholm, “The myth of secular neutrality,” June 3, 2025.Colin J. Smothers, “Fuller Seminary's untenable ‘third way',” May 30, 2025.Thaddeus Williams, “Tax money for some religions,” May 27, 2025.

During a moment of historic turbulence and Christian polarization, Trinity Forum president Cherie Harder stepped away from the political and spiritual vortex of Washington, DC, for a month-long pilgrimage on the Camino de Santiago—a.k.a. “the Camino” or “the Way.” In this episode, she reflects on the spiritual, emotional, and physical rhythms of pilgrimage as both counterpoint and counter-practice to the fracturing pressures of American civic and religious life. Together, she and Mark Labberton consider how such a posture of pilgrimage—marked by humility, presence, and receptivity—can help reshape how we understand Christian witness in a fraught and antagonistic time. Harder explores how her Camino sabbatical offered her a deeply embodied spiritual liturgy—one that grounded her leadership and personal formation after years of intense service in government and faith-based institutions. She also reflects on the internal and external catalysts that led her to walk three hundred miles across Portugal and Spain, including burnout, anxiety, and the desire to “walk things off.” What emerged was not a single epiphany but a profound reorientation: a reordering of attention, a rediscovery of joy, and a new kind of sociological imagination—one that sees neighbourliness through the eyes of a pilgrim, not a partisan. Episode Highlights “Being a pilgrim, one is a stranger in a strange land, one has no pretensions to ruling the place. … It's a different way of being in the world.” “There was a widespread belief in the importance of persuasion … a very different posture than seeking to dominate, humiliate, and pulverize.” “Every day is literally putting one foot in front of the other. And you spend each day outside—whether it's in sunshine or in rain.” “There's a pilgrim sociology that is so counter to how we interact in civic space today. … It's a different way of being in the world.” “You're tired, and there's an invitation to stop and to pray.” “I didn't have an epiphany, but what I had instead was a daily practice that fed my soul.” Helpful Links and Resources The Trinity Forum The Way (film) – a film about the Camino starring Martin Sheen Off the Road: A Modern-Day Walk Down the Pilgrim's Route into Spain by Jack Hitt Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan (Project Gutenberg) Sabbath as Resistance by Walter Brueggemann Camino de Santiago Overview – Wikipedia About Cherie Harder Cherie Harder is president of the Trinity Forum, a non-profit that curates Christian thought leadership to engage public life, spiritual formation, and the arts. She previously served in multiple leadership roles in the US government, including in the White House under President George W. Bush, and as policy director to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. A graduate of Harvard University, she is a writer, speaker, and advocate for grace-filled public discourse and thoughtful Christian engagement in civic life. Show Notes Cherie Harder is president of the Trinity Forum, a non-profit based in Washington, DC, and focused on Christian thought leadership. She previously served in the White House and as policy director for the Senate Majority Leader. Harder reflects on how leadership now requires “counterforce just to stay in the same place.” She critiques the rise of “performative belligerence” in both civic and Christian life. “There's a premium placed on humiliating and deeply personally insulting the other side—and somehow that's seen as strength.” She contrasts past politics, which valued persuasion, with today's polarization, which valorizes domination. “Persuasion takes others seriously. It assumes they're reasonable and open.” The Camino de Santiago and pilgrimage Harder walked over three hundred miles, from Lisbon to Santiago, along the Portuguese Camino. She frames pilgrimage as an act of spiritual resistance against anxiety, burnout, and cultural chaos. “I need to find a way to walk this off.” The daily rhythm of the Camino offered physical and spiritual rest: wake, walk, eat, reflect, rest, repeat. “Every day was the opportunity to just move, to see, to attend to what was in front of me.” She was struck by the liturgical nature of walking: “There's no perfect walk, but you have to start.” Each step became a form of prayer, an embodied spiritual practice. Embodied spiritual formation Harder calls the Camino “a liturgy of the body”—a spiritual discipline grounded in physical motion. “Being in your body every day changes you—it makes your needs visible, your limits felt, your joy more palpable.” She found that physical needs—food, rest, shelter—highlighted spiritual hungers and gratitudes. The rhythm reoriented her from leadership stress to lived dependence on grace. “I didn't have an epiphany. But what I had instead was a daily practice that fed my soul.” Spiritual renewal and rhythmic practices Harder affirms that the Camino gave her a hunger for spiritual rest she hadn't fully realized. “It showed me the deficiency was greater than I thought … I've missed this.” She explores how practices of solitude, walking, and prayer can carry over into her work. Mark Labberton proposes Sabbath-keeping as one way to embody pilgrimage back home. “We may not all get to Portugal—but we can still find a Camino in our days.” Harder is now exploring how to sustain “a rhythmic alteration of how we hold time.” Pilgrim sociology and neighbourliness Harder describes a “pilgrim sociology”—a social vision rooted in vulnerability, curiosity, humility, and shared burdens. “We're in a strange land. We're not here to rule, but to receive.” The Camino fostered solidarity through shared hardship and generosity. “You literally carry each other's burdens.” She draws a sharp contrast between the posture of a pilgrim and the posture of a combatant. “It leads to a much kinder, gentler world—because it's not a posture of domination.” Spiritual lessons from the Camino The convergence at Santiago prompted reflection on heaven: “All these people, from different paths, looking up at glory.” She was reminded of Jesus's words, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” “The Camino literally means ‘the Way.' You're relying on direction that is true.” The historic path invites pilgrims into the long, sacred story of the church. “You feel part of something bigger—millions have gone before you.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

For Christians, morality is often set by our interpretation of Jesus. In this episode, Reggie Williams reflects on the moral urgency of resistance in the face of rising nationalisms and systemic racial injustice that persists. Reggie Williams is associate professor of black theology at Saint Louis University, and author of Bonhoeffer's Black Jesus. Exploring the transformative and fraught legacy of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he draws from Bonhoeffer's encounter with black Christian faith in Harlem. He traces both the revolutionary promise and the colonial limits of Bonhoeffer's thought—ultimately offering a compelling call to face the challenge of colonialism embedded in Christian theological frameworks, and unmask and dismantle the assumptions of white Western dominance within theology. Episode Highlights “Even the most sincere and most brilliant, and even pious Christian, if we're not paying attention to the way in which we are formed, repeats the problems that he's trying to address in society.” “Our interpretation of Jesus shapes our morality as Christians.” “Hitler and Dietrich both understood their crisis as christological—just with radically different ends.” “Christ is actually present in the world in space and time—but for Bonhoeffer, that was the West. That's a problem.” “The arbiter of culture owes it to the rest of the world not to be cruel. But what if the whole project needs to be undone?” “Access for black people has always meant white loss in the white imagination. That's the virus in the body politic.” Helpful Links and Resources Bonhoeffer's Black Jesus by Reggie Williams Ethics by Dietrich Bonhoeffer The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer Just Peacemaking by Glen Stassen About Reggie L. Williams Reggie L. Williams is associate professor of black theology at Saint Louis University. A scholar of Christian social ethics, he focuses on race, religion, and justice, with a particular interest in Dietrich Bonhoeffer's theological development during his time in Harlem. Williams is the author of Bonhoeffer's Black Jesus and a leading voice on the intersections of colonialism, theology, and ethics. Show Notes Bonhoeffer's Black Jesus reframes theological ethics through the lens of Harlem's Black Church experience Reggie Williams explores how racialized interpretations of Jesus shape Christian morality Glen Stassen's just peacemaking framework helped form Williams's commitment to justice-oriented ethics Bonhoeffer's exposure to black theology in Harlem was transformative—but its disruption didn't last “The church must say something about those targeted by harmful political structures.” Bonhoeffer saw racism as a theological issue after Harlem, but still defaulted to Western Christology “Christ is located in the real world—but for Bonhoeffer, that meant colonial Europe and America” Williams critiques Bonhoeffer's failure to see Christ outside the imperial West “Behold the man”—Bonhoeffer's formulation still echoes a European epistemology of the human The human as we know it is a European philosophical construct rooted in colonial domination Bonhoeffer's Ethics critiques Nazism but still centres the West as the space of Christ's incarnation “The unified West was his answer to fascism—but it still excluded the harmed and colonized.” Even as a resister, Bonhoeffer operated within metaphysical frames of white supremacy “A reformed imperial Christianity is still imperial—we need a theological break, not a revision.” Bonhoeffer's Cost of Discipleship reflected troubling views on slavery—he changed over time “From 1937 to 1939 he moves from withdrawal to coup attempt—his ethics evolved.” Reggie Williams argues the theological academy still operates under Bonhoeffer's colonial presumptions “White Christian nationalism is a sacred project—whiteness floats above history as God's proxy” Racial hierarchy was created to justify economic domination, not the other way around “Black access is always imagined as white loss in the American imagination” The DEI backlash reflects a long pattern of retrenchment following black progress “How we treat bodies is how we treat the planet—domination replaces communion” Bonhoeffer's flaws do not erase his significance—they remind us of the need for grace and growth “He's frozen in time at thirty-nine—we don't know what he would've come to see had he lived.” Mark Labberton calls the current moment a five-alarm fire requiring voices like Williams's “We are at the precipice of the future all over again—the old crisis is still with us.” The church's complicity in empire must be confronted to recover the radical gospel of Jesus The moral imagination of the church must be unshackled from whiteness, ownership, and dominance Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“More of the church is committed to their immigrant neighbours than the media or politicians would like the public to believe.” (Myal Green, from the episode) Myal Greene (president and CEO of World Relief) joins host Mark Labberton to discuss the global humanitarian crises, refugee resettlement, and the church's responsibility to respond with courage and compassion. From Rwanda's post-genocide reconciliation following 1994 to the 2025 dismantling of humanitarian aid and refugee programs in the US, Greene shares how his personal faith journey fuels his leadership amid historic humanitarian upheaval. Rooted in Scripture and the global moral witness of the church, Greene challenges listeners to imagine a more faithful Christian response to suffering—one that refuses to turn away from the world's most vulnerable. Despite the current political polarization and rising fragility of moral consensus, Greene calls on the church to step into its biblical role: speaking truth to power, welcoming the stranger, standing with the oppressed, and embodying the love of Christ in tangible, courageous ways. Episode Highlights “Inherently, reconciliation of people who have done the worst things imaginable to you is not a human thing.” “To truly be a follower of Christ, you can't be completely for a politician or completely for a political party.” “What we've seen is that more of the church is committed to their immigrant neighbours than the media or politicians would like the public to believe.” “The challenge for pastors is: How do I talk about this issue without losing my job or splitting my congregation?” “If we're failing to define our neighbour expansively—as Christ did—we're always going to get it wrong.” Helpful Links and Resources World Relief Open Doors World Watch List 2025 2024 Lifeway Research on Evangelicals & Immigration PEPFAR Program – US Department of State National Association of Evangelicals Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, by Ron Sider Good News About Injustice, by Gary Haugen Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers About Myal Greene Myal Greene has a deep desire to see churches worldwide equipped, empowered, and engaged in meeting the needs of vulnerable families in their communities. In 2021, he became president and CEO after serving for fourteen years with the organization. While living in Rwanda for eight years, he developed World Relief's innovative church-based programming model that is currently used in nine countries. He also spent six years in leadership roles within the international programs division. He has previous experience working with the US government. He holds a BS in finance from Lehigh University and an MA from Fuller Theological Seminary in global leadership. He and his wife Sharon have three children. Show Notes Myal Greene's call to faith-rooted leadership in alleviating poverty Greene's path from Capitol Hill to World Relief, shaped by his conversion in his twenties and a deepening conviction about God's heart for the poor “God was working in me and instilling a deep understanding of his heart for the poor.” Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, by Ron Sider Good News About Injustice, by Gary Haugen Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers Psalm 31:7–8: “I'll be glad and rejoice for you have seen my troubles and you've seen the affliction of my soul, but you've not turned me over to the enemy. You've set me in a safe place.” “ Not only will God transform your life, but what it means to actually have experienced that and to feel that and to make that a very real personal experience.” 2007 in Rwanda Rwanda's one-hundred-day memorial period for the 1994 genocide “The effects of the genocide were always there. You wouldn't be able to see it, but it was always there.” Gacaca courts (system of transitional justice to handle the numerous legal cases following the 1994 genocide). “People would come and talk about what happened. … The attempts at apology, the attempts at reconciliation were powerful.” ”There are so many stories from Rwanda of true reconciliation where people have forgiven the people who've killed their family members or have forgiven people who've done terrible things to them.” ”How did the Gachacha courts see an interweaving or not of Christian faith in the process of the acts of forgiveness?” The church's role: “The hard part and the amazing part of Rwanda is that reconciliation is deeply connected to individual cases.” “Inherently, reconciliation of people who have done the worst things imaginable to you is not a human thing.” World Relief's Legacy & Mission Founded in 1944 at Park Street Church, Boston, in response to World War II European displacement. “Feeding 180,000 people a day in Korea during the Korean War.” “We boldly engage the world's greatest crises in partnership with the church.” The global displacement crisis Over 122 million forcibly displaced people worldwide—up from under 40 million in 2007 (a fourfold increase) “A handful of the most fragile nations of the world are experiencing extreme violence, fragility, rising poverty, the effects of climate change, and people are being forced to flee and put into d desperate situations.” “The generosity of the country is not being seen at a time when people in crisis face the greatest need.” World Relief is “one of ten refugee resettlement agencies, and we have been a refugee resettlement agency partnering with the US government since 1980 to do the work of welcoming refugees who come to this country. And we've partnered with every presidential administration since Jimmy Carter to do this work and have, have done so proudly.” Trump's immigration and refugee resettlement policies Refugee resettlement has been halted since January 20, 2025—an estimated one thousand people per month left unwelcomed “At a time when people experiencing crisis are facing the greatest need, the generosity of the country is not being seen.” 120,000 refugees were welcomed in 2024. “We expected around 12,000” in 2025. “Should Christian organizations receive federal funding?” Cuts to federal humanitarian funding USAID interruptions directly affect food, health, and medical services in fragile states like Sudan, Haiti, and DRC. On PEPFAR: HIV-AIDS specific program established by George W. Bush PEPFAR: “25 million lives have been saved … now it's among the casualties.” “Have these [federal cuts to humanitarian aid] increased philanthropic giving or has philanthropic giving dropped almost as a mirror of the government policy change?” Church response and misconceptions How should we manage uncertainty? When to use one's voice to speak truth to power? “Polling shows evangelicals overwhelmingly support refugee resettlement—even Trump voters.” “Over 70 percent of evangelicals believe the US has a moral responsibility to welcome refugees to this country. Sixty-eight percent of of evangelicals voted for Trump agree with that statement as well.” Lifeway Research found only 9 percent of evangelicals cite the Bible or their pastor as their main source on immigration. “It would sit uncomfortably to any pastor if that were true about any other major issue.” “Pastors find themselves in this difficult place where they're trying to figure out, ‘How do I talk about this issue without losing my job and splitting my congregation?'” ”The dissonance between the way the press represents evangelical opinions about immigration” “Whether the church's voice has enough authority to be able to actually affect people's real time decisions about how they live in the world” “To be a truly a follower of Christ, you can't be completely for a politician or completely for a political party because then you put that ahead of your faith in Christ.” “You have to be able to have that freedom to disagree with the leader or the party.” “A dog with a bone in his mouth can't bark. … I think that that's where we find ourself as a church right now. We want certain victories through political means, and we're willing to sacrifice our moral authority in order to get those. And I think that that's, that's a very dangerous place to be in as a church.” How Lifeway Research approaches their understanding of “evangelical Christian” “What is the authority of the church, and how is it exercising or failing to exercise its voice right now?” Hope for a compassionate church “The real movement happens when the church unites and uses its voice.” “One in twelve Christians in America will either be deported or live with someone who is subject to deportation.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Raymond Chang—pastor, writer, and Executive Director of the TENx10 Collaboration at Fuller Seminary. As co-author of Future Focused Church, Raymond shares a hopeful, grounded vision for how churches can embrace change, cultivate culture, and lead the next generation with clarity and purpose. Drawing from his experience in campus ministry, global missions, and as the president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative, Raymond offers practical wisdom on how to engage young people, make faithful decisions, and ground all change efforts in deep discipleship. The conversation touches on everything from listening well to those who resist, to why the worship service is often the worst place to initiate change. Key Themes: Why the future of the church is still bright Spiritual postures vs. spiritual practices The long, faithful work of building congregational imagination Creating culture change, not just cosmetic change Empowering transformation teams Leading with listening and honoring those who resist Why everything should be grounded in discipleship How to manage hard decisions with grace The danger of political syncretism in the church   Raymond Chang is the executive director of the TENx10 Collaboration (part of Fuller Seminary), which is a collaborative movement that is geared toward reaching ten million young people over ten years with the gospel. He is also the president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative, a pastor, and a writer. Prior to his role at Fuller, Raymond served as the associate chaplain for discipleship at Wheaton College. He has worked in the for-profit and nonprofit sectors and served in the Peace Corps in Panama. He and his wife, Jessica Min Chang, are proud parents of Sophia, and they reside in Chicago.   Mentioned Resources:

In this episode of The Biggest Table, I delve into the subject of church camp with guest Cara Meredith, a speaker, writer, and public theologian. The discussion revolves around Cara's book 'Church Camp: Bad Skits, Cry Night, and How White Evangelicalism Betrayed a Generation,' examining the complex nature of church camps. Cara emphasizes the importance of holding both the positive and negative aspects of camp life, discussing the formative experiences alongside the theological and social harms encountered. The conversation provides insights into maintaining nuanced views, fostering dialogue with children about their experiences, and imagining better ways to cultivate genuine spiritual growth and inclusivity in camp environments.A sought-after speaker, writer, and public theologian, Cara Meredith is the author of Church Camp: Bad Skits, Cry Night, and How White Evangelicalism Betrayed a Generation and The Color of Life: A Journey Toward Love and Racial Justice. She has been featured in national media outlets such as The Oregonian, The New York Times, The Living Church, The Christian Century, and Baptist News Global, among others. Passionate about justice, spirituality, and storytelling alike, Cara holds a master of theology from Fuller Seminary and is a postulant for Holy Orders in the Episcopal Church. With a background in education and nonprofit work, Cara also works part-time as the Director of Development for Made for PAX Co, an organization dedicated to providing mentorship and vocational resources to emerging creatives, contemplatives, church leaders, and community builders of color.   When she's not working, you'll likely find her reading a book, tinkering around in the garden, or hanging out with her family. She is proud to call Oakland, California home.Follow Cara Meredith @carameredithwrites:FacebookInstagramSubstackThis episode of the Biggest Table is brought to you in part by Wild Goose Coffee. Since 2008, Wild Goose has sought to build better communities through coffee. For our listeners, Wild Goose is offering a special promotion of 20% off a one time order using the code TABLE at checkout. To learn more and to order coffee, please visit wildgoosecoffee.com. 

How to Support the Rob Skinner Podcast.  If you would like to help support my mission to multiply disciples, leaders and churches, click here:  https://www.buymeacoffee.com/robskinner   While on sabbatical I am releasing some of my most listened to episodes from my podcast.  Mike Fontenot's is one of my most popular interviews.  It was originally released as episode #7.    Please enjoy!   Who is Mike Fontenot? Mike Fontenot became a Christian in 1969.  After graduating from Louisiana State University, he went to Fuller Seminary for his Master's Degree.  He and his wife, Tess, planted a church in Sydney, Australia in the early eighties.  That church has grown to three hundred members and they have planted churches all over Australia, New Zealand, and Fiji.  At an age that many have long retired, Mike is still passionately working to advance the gospel "Down Under."  In this interview, Mike shares about his journey as a Christian, church planter and church multiplier.  He shares how he has kept his spiritual fire burning brightly for over fifty years.  Program Outline   How did you become Christians? Tell me about the growth of the churches in Australia:  How many, how big, rate of growth etc. You just celebrated 50 years in Christ, how have you managed to keep your love growing? You are a couple that is making a difference, what drives you? What was it like raising a family on the mission field? What advice would you give a person, man or woman, who wants to make a difference and live "no regrets" life? What would you tell a younger man or woman who has leadership ambitions? Do you have any regrets, anything you wish you could do over or differently? You returned to Australia at the age most people retire, why? Facing a situation of little or declining growth, what was your plan, how did you execute it? What does "High Faith & High Expectations" mean? If someone is in a situation that has been stagnant or plateaued for a while, what advice would you give them? What is transferable from your situation? Tell me about a time when you came back from a setback or failure. What advice would you give to people who are dealing with failure or discouragement? Who else do you know that is really standing out and growing?  Multiplying disciples, leaders and churches? What advice would you give me to plant ten churches in the next ten years? Tell me about something that keeps your spiritual fire and ambition burning brightly.

Reflecting on Psalm 23, Barnabas Lin reminds us of God's defense of and nearness to us in the darkest valley—the valley of the shadow of death. Barnabas Lin is a PhD candidate at Fuller Seminary. Recorded at Fuller's All-Seminary Chapel on June 4, 2025.  

What do you do when you don't know what to do? Angela Williams Gorrell joins Mark Labberton to discuss her latest book, Braving Difficult Decisions. With poignant storytelling and theological depth, Gorrell shares how this book was born out of personal crucibles and a yearning to make sense of liminal, paralyzing spaces we all encounter—individually and communally. Together they explore how discernment is not just about decision-making but also about cultivating a life of wisdom, attentiveness, and spiritual depth. Rooted in Christian tradition yet capacious across communities and contexts, Gorrell invites listeners to slow down, ask deeper questions, and consider the spiritual, emotional, and communal terrain that shapes every meaningful decision. Episode Highlights “To not make a decision is to make one as well.” “This journey is about an inward journey that says, how do I look at the state of my own soul?” “Sometimes good decisions don't feel good.” “What if the best idea isn't the good idea? And what if the data can't tell us that?” “Lady Wisdom invites us to dine—to sit at a table with God and others, and not rush the meal.” Helpful Links and Resources Braving Difficult Decisions, by Angela Williams Gorrell The Gravity of Joy, by Angela Williams Gorrell Life Worth Living course at Yale www.angelagorrell.com @angelagorrell on Instagram Show Notes The “liminal space” of facing a difficult decision, arriving at a crossroads Defining discernment as “a practice, not a single moment of choice” The book stems from her decision to leave a tenured-track faculty position, and a painful personal choice about marriage Perpetua and Felicity—early Christian martyrs Individual discernment and soul work Life Worth Living at Yale “Can I be suffering and my life still be good?” The deeply heartbreaking experience of grappling with the question of divorce “I really struggled to find a book that was like, you can be deeply Christian, deeply spiritual, and make this very difficult choice.” “You have to put them in your own heart and soul. You have to grapple with these ideas, and then you write them.” Should we avoid difficult decisions? Discerning, then acting “To not make a decision is to make one as well.” “I wanted to write a book that spoke to that liminal space where we feel paralyzed.” “Good decisions don't always feel good—they might still break your heart” Discusses difference between chronic pain and acute pain in decision-making Discernment helps identify not just what is “right,” but what leads toward peace Michaela O'Donnell and chronic pain Discernment is about “looking at the state of your own soul and becoming a steward of it” “This story that God is nurturing in the world—that story doesn't hinge on like this decision in your life.” Self-examination, and feeling alone in the decision Community-based decision-making “There are all these false binaries.” “What baggage do you have from the past? And how do you make sure that you're not seeing the present moment through the past?” Being as gracious as possible “ What is a way that we can create space to really hear from God?—to hear from each other, and to move forward in a way that we're doing change together and not to each other.” “They need to figure out something together that matters deeply.” The book offers a pathway for congregations and organizations discerning together “How do we do change with people?” Encourages communities to take time, name past wounds, and define who makes decisions Identifies the importance of setting clear expectations, timelines, and spiritual framing “Listening to everyone takes time, but it leads to deeper collective ownership.” Invites communities to ask: What values do we want to embody in this moment? “Sometimes the most valuable part of the process is the slowness.” Wisdom, complexity, and culture Decision-making in our polarized society must account for nuance, empathy, and complexity “What if the data tells us one thing, but the Spirit tells us something else?” Resist “data-driven” decisions as totalizing; discernment includes emotion, history, and spirituality. “Sometimes good decisions don't feel good, you know? Sometimes a life worth living is not about pursuing happiness.” “Lady Wisdom invites us to come and to dine at her house and to sit at a table together.” Names systemic fatigue: “Organizations optimize while their people starve.” Decision-making is affected by race, gender, trauma, context—“there is no one-size-fits-all path” Discernment as a practice, not a moment Braving Difficult Decisions includes exercises and frameworks, such as the “iceberg model” “Most big questions are like an iceberg. There's all this ice beneath the surface that you don't see. That's really the stuff that people are grappling with.” Encourages ongoing wisdom practices: surrender, self-reflection, value-alignment The book is not just a guide for one hard moment, but a long-term companion Ideal for pastors, therapists, educators, spiritual directors, and leaders About Angela Williams Gorrell Rev. Dr. Angela Williams Gorrell is an author, speaker, and consultant. Gorrell speaks and writes about finding the life worth living, joy, meaning, and purpose, and the intersection of spiritual and mental health. She is the author of Always On, The Gravity of Joy, and Braving Difficult Decisions: What to Do When You Don't Know What to Do. Angela's research has been highlighted in media sources such as the New York Times, the Washington Post, and NPR. Gorrell has taught at several schools including Yale University and Baylor University. She has provided thought leadership and consulting for numerous organizations including the US Army and the NBA. You can find her at her website www.angelagorrell.com or on instagram @angelagorrell. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Meaningful relationships are mutual. Balanced with give and take, equal influence between partners, and a vibrant dance of loving responsiveness and caring attention.Marriage and Family Therapist and professor Dr. Jessica ChenFeng is calling us toward a more justice-oriented approach to relationships and to mental health and well-being, She invites us to open-hearted and empathic perspective taking, and seeking an integrated wholeness that incorporates all of who we are—highlighting the gift of mutuality in our most intimate relationships in marriage and family life.In this conversation with Jessica ChenFeng, we discuss:The importance of integrated and whole experience of ourselves—allowing racial, gender, and cultural identities to weave together in our sense of vocation and contribution to the worldThe importance of mutuality in relationships—but particularly in marriage and family systems.The ways emotional power flows in a relationship and impacts marriage and family dynamicsThe difference between partners focusing on meeting their individual needs and caring for the health of an intimate relationshipAnd she offers a guided practical exercise to help us lovingly notice and accept our inner experience with a heart open to justice, vulnerability, and the reminder that we are beloved in the eyes of God.Episode Highlights"Systems of power harm everyone—and to live life to the full, we have to see each other fully.""I believe our move toward life to the full requires us to see the world through a third-order lens: not just family systems, but the racial, gender, and societal systems they exist within.""Mutuality means not just expressing our needs but being willing to be changed by the needs of others.""If we're not attuned to the pleasant sensations in our bodies, we miss the invitations to thrive.""Cultural norms are not God-given realities; they are social constructs we are invited to discern and transform.""Knowledge without authentic relationship keeps us from truly seeing the embodied experiences of others."Helpful Links and ResourcesCheck out the programs in Marriage & Family Therapy at Fuller School of Psychology www.fuller.edu/school-of-psychology/Fuller Asian American Center aac.fuller.edu/Socio-Emotional Relationship Therapy (SERT) OverviewCircle of Care Model ExplainedPositive Psychology and EmotionsJeanne Tsai's Research on Culture and EmotionAsian American Values Scale ReferenceRace and Trauma ResourcesJeanne Tsai's research on culture and emotion – Stanford SPARQJohn and Julie Gottman Relationship ResearchAsian American Values Scale – Paniagua & Yamada (Academic resource)Show NotesJessica ChenFeng shares her "yes and" identity as a second-generation Taiwanese American grounded in both math and creativity.How earthy aesthetics and connection to nature shape Jessica's professional and personal flourishing.The integration of Christian faith with clinical work at Fuller Seminary."Seeing systems of systems" — why thriving requires understanding how race, gender, and cultural forces shape individuals and families.Introduction to socio-emotional relationship therapy (SERT) and the value of mutuality in relationships.Defining mutuality: mutual attunement, mutual influence, mutual vulnerability, and mutual relational responsibility."Mutuality asks: Are both people tending to the relationship itself?"Practical signs of mutual and non-mutual relationships, including emotional attunement and willingness to be influenced.The importance of humility and relational awareness in building mutual relationships.The Circle of Care model: cultivating healthy relational dynamics through attunement and responsiveness.Discerning relational power dynamics in marriages, friendships, and work relationships."Thriving is an open heart, even on a stressful day."How emotional self-control in Asian American cultures is often rooted in relational ethics, not personal repression.The risk and gift of navigating cross-generational emotional communication in immigrant families.Differentiated selfhood: balancing authenticity with cultural respect in relational dynamics.Race, culture, and relational healing: why systems of privilege harm everyone."Love your neighbor as yourself" as an ethic for mutual flourishing across racial and cultural difference.Building trust by leaning into discomfort and courageous conversations.The need for embodied encounters with real people beyond theories of race and difference.Mindfulness practice: Jessica leads a guided exercise in attuning to pleasant sensations in the body.The transformational power of positive emotions and embodiment for creativity and resilience.The relational impact of systemic racialization and why "colorblindness" fails to honor real lived experience.Final reflections: How knowing who we are through systemic and relational lenses allows deeper thriving.Pam King's Key TakeawaysEach of us in the human family is a beloved child of God—and we need to continue to shape society to reflect this foundational truth.The path to meaning and fulfillment in a relationship starts with noticing and acknowledging the flow of emotional power, and its destination is mutuality and humilityThriving means incorporating all of who we are—our heritage and histories especially—into our love of ourselves, our love of others, and love of God.Our intimate relationships need care and attention as a third reality beyond our selves and our partners.And finally, thriving means opening our hearts each day, connecting our inner and relational realities, and learning to love patiently the multitudes we all contain.About Jessica ChenFengDr. Jessica ChenFeng is Associate Professor at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary, and is also Director of the Asian American Well-being Collaboratory at Fuller's Asian American Center. Prior to her time at Fuller she was a professor at Loma Linda University and California State University, Northridge.Jessica is known for her clinical expertise and scholarship integrating socio-contextual lenses of race, gender, and generation into work with minoritized individuals, families, and communities. In the last few years, her primary clinical focus has been the well-being of physicians, especially through pandemic-related trauma and burnout. She's co-authored two books, Finding Your Voice as a Beginning Marriage and FamilyTherapist, as well as Asian American Identities, Relationships, and Cultural Legacies: Reflections from Marriage and Family Therapists. She received the 2022 American Family Therapy Academy Early Career Award. About the Thrive CenterLearn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter About Dr. Pam KingDr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking. About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

A.J. Swoboda is a pastor, teacher, theologian, and author of such books as The Gift of Thorns, Subversive Sabbath, Slow Theology, After Doubt … to name a few. He serves on the faculties of George Fox University and Fuller Seminary where he teaches biblical studies, theology, and church history. He pastors Theophilus church in Portland, Oregon and leads a great podcast together with Nijay Gupta called Slow Theology. His most recent book, A Teachable Spirit, caught my attention because of its title. Few of us have that spirit, and more of us need it. Maybe I should speak only for myself. Let's talk about what it means to be spiritually and intellectually flexible enough to learn from peers, children, the culture … even our enemies. 

In this episode of Calibrate Conversations, I break down Fuller Seminary's recent controversial move. Once known for upholding biblical marriage and sexual ethics, Fuller Seminary appears to be wavering—trying to appease both sides. In today's discussion, we unpack the implications of this “middle ground” stance and why it matters for the future of biblical truth and discipleship.Join me as I explore:-The key elements of Fuller Seminary's recent statement-What it means for Christians who seek clarity in their faith-How this move affects both students and the wider Christian witnessDon't forget to like, subscribe, and share if you believe in standing firmly on biblical principles! For more resources, visit calibrateministries.com.Support the Ministry:A $25,000 matching donation is currently in place—your gift goes even further!Join us weekly as we strive help people embrace God's standard for sexuality! Other ways to listen:https://linktr.ee/calibrateconversations#FullerSeminary #BiblicalTruth #Christianity #Faith #SexualEthics

Fuller Theological Seminary just affirmed the biblical definition of marriage — but in the same breath, undermined its very foundation by elevating "lived experience" over God's Word. In this episode of the God is the Issue Podcast, Brad Bright exposes the subtle rhetorical shift that threatens core Christian doctrines like the virgin birth, miracles, and resurrection. If you've ever wondered how cultural compromise enters the Church, this is a must-watch. Stay grounded in truth—and don't fall for the same deception.https://studio.youtube.com/playlist/PLdQhfIGtd0bqu71-RysD8rKhsMbUohp8R/editBrightmedia.orgtwitter.com/GodIsTheIssueGOD, Who Are You Anyway?  by Bill Bright, with Brad Bright brightmedia.org/resources#UnderstandingChristianity#ChristianFaith #GodIsTheIssue #SinAndGrace #BiblicalTruth #JesusLovesYou #ChristianPodcast#worldview#Christianity#Faith#Jesus

Mental, emotional, and spiritual healing requires more than clinical technique—it demands sacrificial empathy, institutional trust, and a profound affirmation of the image of God in every human being. In this episode, clinical psychologist and Pine Rest CEO Mark Eastburg joins Mark Labberton to discuss the rising need for mental health care—especially for children, adolescents, and those recovering from severe trauma. Eastburg offers insights about the post-pandemic mental health landscape; psychological and emotional resilience; trauma-informed therapy; deep listening; and the theological, moral, and social commitments that drive Eastburg's approach to mental and spiritual health. They also discuss the systemic injustice underlying many mental health disparities, inviting us to see mental health care as a vital form of justice work rooted in compassion, dignity, and Christian witness. Episode Highlights “We're in the healing moments business. That's what we do … and I think those healing moments are the building blocks of the kingdom of God—just like atoms are the building blocks of the material world.” “We're in the healing moments business. … Those healing moments are the building blocks of the kingdom of God.” “Mental health work is justice work … especially when we're helping people who've been victims of injustice get back into community.” “If you just react to people's symptoms, you'll get more symptoms. But if you can see the beautiful human being underneath, you'll see more of that.” “A Christian approach to therapy starts with the belief that every person is made in the image of God—and they are someone's favourite brother or sister.” “Jesus's care for the outsider, for the downtrodden, the excluded—that has to define what we mean when we say we express the healing ministry of Christ.” About Mark Eastburg Mark Eastburg, PhD, is president and chief executive officer of Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services, one of the five largest free-standing behavioural health organizations in the United States. With a doctorate in clinical psychology from Fuller Theological Seminary, Eastburg has served in both clinical and leadership roles at Pine Rest for over three decades. He is a passionate advocate for trauma-informed care, access to mental health services, and a faith-integrated approach to healing grounded in human dignity and Christian compassion. Helpful Links and Resources Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services American Rescue Plan Show Notes Mental Health Landscape post-Covid Surge in mental health needs for children and adolescents, especially after pandemic lockdowns Dramatic increase in psychiatric crises among youth: anxiety, self-harm, aggression Tele-therapy rose during Covid, but adolescents strongly prefer in-person care “The post-Covid world—everything seems to have become more intense.” The symptoms of the adolescent mental health crisis Rise in social media use and marijuana legalization amplifying symptoms Anxiety, substance abuse “We are really shaped and developed by practices.” The experience of children in foster care Trauma-informed care essential for children with abuse and neglect histories Empathy requires the therapist to engage in “sacrificial vulnerability” Human mutual vulnerability—”The therapist, to express such empathy, has to themselves be prepared to manifest their own vulnerability to the person who has their own underlying vulnerabilities.” Sage advice for therapists: “If you just react to people symptoms, you're going to get more symptoms. But if you could look past the symptoms and see what he liked to call ‘the beautiful human being underneath everybody,' anyone that you interact with, you'll see more of that.” Sacrificial empathy Working toward healing moments—the building blocks for the kingdom of God Christian psychotherapy: “the ability to look at people as made in God's image.” Mental illness is another form of marginalization and exclusion “People are more than a set of symptoms to be treated.” Managing a crisis versus seeing a person How Pine Rest approaches mental health care Pine Rest's new $100 million pediatric behavioural health center in Michigan “Instead of waiting months for care, kids can just walk in and we'll sort it out.” New specialty clinics for autism, depression, eating disorders, and anxiety The universality of how mental health touches our lives Who sustains mental health care financially? What stokes a readiness for empathy? Deeper friendships and safe relationships of belonging as the foundation for mental health Stories of youth overcoming institutionalization and abuse through care “When a therapist sees the image of God, not just the behaviour, healing begins.” Cyprian of Carthage: “Let us be philosophers not in words, but in deeds.” “We often misperceive one another and then we misname one another and then we act in relationship to that person with the wrong name and the wrong perception.” Empathy, trauma, and Christian therapy “Our actions, our words can re-traumatize if we're not approaching with care.” Connection between sacred empathy and human flourishing “You can't manage people like machines—you have to wish for their flourishing.” The church, community, and mental health The role of church and community institutions in fostering resilience “You can't train enough therapists to solve the crisis—we have to go upstream.” Stories of church communities embracing those with mental illness “Belonging precedes healing. If someone feels cared for, they're more likely to show empathy.” Global suffering, Western understanding of “avoiding suffering,” and the search for meaning Contrast between global Christians and Western assumptions about suffering “While I think our work here at Pine Rest Mental Health—we're here to relieve suffering—there is suffering that is full of meaning and full of lessons to teach.” Christian healing values clashing with other predominant Western medical approaches “Suffering doesn't equal God's abandonment—it's often where God meets us.” Concerns about over-medicalizing suffering and ignoring its spiritual richness Lessons from early Christian health-care pioneers—“the reckless ones” who ran toward the sick “There is suffering full of meaning and lessons that Western models tend to miss.” Justice, dignity, and the Christian vocation to empathic care “Mental health care is justice work—especially for those traumatized or left out.” “People suffering, struggling with mental illness are often the victims of injustices.” The practice of psychotherapy and mental health care as pursuing social justice Connections between structural injustice and mental illness Biblical vision of justice includes care for those seen as defective or excluded Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Gavin Ortlund reflects on Fuller Seminary's recent position on marriage and sexuality. See Ed Stetzer's Article: https://churchleaders.com/voices/511720-fuller-seminary-james-k-a-smith-and-the-need-for-biblical-clarity.htmlSee President Goatley's Response: https://churchleaders.com/voices/exchange/511785-an-enduring-evangelical-way-of-being-a-response-from-david-emmanuel-goatley.htmlSee Sam Allberry's book, Is God Ant-Gay?: https://www.amazon.com/God-anti-gay-Questions-Christians-Ask/dp/1908762314Truth Unites (https://truthunites.org) exists to promote gospel assurance through theological depth. Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) is President of Truth Unites, Visiting Professor of Historical Theology at Phoenix Seminary, and Theologian-in-Residence at Immanuel Nashville.SUPPORT:Tax Deductible Support: https://truthunites.org/donate/Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/truthunitesFOLLOW:Website: https://truthunites.org/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/truth.unites/Twitter: https://twitter.com/gavinortlundFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/TruthUnitesPage/

On today's program, Gateway Church has named a new senior pastor. The appointment comes a year after child sexual abuse accusations surfaced against founding pastor Robert Morris. We'll have details. And, the Department of Justice is suing a city in Idaho for discriminating against Christ the Redeemer Church—a church plant of Doug Wilson's Christ Church. The church has been seeking a permit to meet in an old bank building—a request the city has denied. We'll take a look. Plus, Gereld Duane Rollins—who sued SBC legend Paul Pressler for sexual abuse—has died. His lawsuit sparked a Southern Baptist abuse reckoning. But first, Fuller Seminary reaffirms its stance on biblical sexuality. The board of Fuller, a leading evangelical seminary voted to affirm its long-standing stance on biblical marriage and human sexuality during its May meeting. But an email to supporters May 22 caused confusion. The email defined the biblical and historical understanding of biblical sexuality as “a union between a man and a woman and sexual intimacy within the context of that union.” But in the same email, the seminary's president also acknowledged that some “faithful” Christian denominations “have come to affirm other covenantal forms of relationship,” an unusual stance for an evangelical seminary. The producer for today's program is Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today's program include Bob Smietana, Kim Roberts, and Laura Erlanson. A special thanks to Baptist Press for contributing material for this week's podcast. Until next time, may God bless you.

David Emmanuel Goatley preaches on hearing God's call and responding to God's vision—even when things don't happen as we plan. David Emmanuel Goatley is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair at Fuller Seminary. Recorded at Fuller's All-Seminary Chapel on May 21, 2025.  

What is the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? And what does it have to do with conservative political power in the United States and abroad? Leah Payne and Caleb Maskell join Mark Labberton for a deep dive into the emergence and impact of the New Apostolic Reformation—a loosely affiliated global network blending Pentecostal Christian spirituality, charismatic authority, and political ambition. With their combined pastoral experience and scholarly expertise, Payne and Maskell chart the historical, theological, and sociopolitical roots of this Pentecostal movement—from Azusa Street and Latter Rain revivals to modern dominion theology and global evangelicalism. They distinguish the New Apostolic Reformation from the broader Pentecostal and charismatic traditions, and explore the popular appeal, theological complexity, and political volatility of the New Apostolic Reformation. Episode Highlights “Isn't this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?” “At no point in time in the history of these United States … have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.” “You can be super nationalistic in Guatemala, in Brazil, in India, and in the United States. … It is a portable form of nationalism.” “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.” “Charismatics and Pentecostals, unlike other forms of American Protestantism … do not have a theological value for democracy.” Main Themes Pentecostalism's history and global influence Charismatic Christianity versus Pentecostalism Defining and explaining the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) C. Peter Wagner, Lance Hall, and Seven Mountain Mandate Dominion theology, Christian nationalism, and the religious Right Pentecostals and Trump politics Zionism in charismatic theology Vineyard movement, worship music, and intimacy with God Linked Media References About Vineyard USA God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music by Leah Payne The New Apostolic Churches by C. Peter Wagner This Present Darkness by Frank Peretti Atlantic Article: “The Army of God Comes Out of the Shadows” by Stephanie McCrummen Bonhoeffer's America: A Land Without Reformation, by Joel Looper Another Gospel: Christian Nationalism and the Crisis of Evangelical Identity, by Joel Looper Show Notes Leah Payne defines Pentecostalism as “a form of American revivalism” William J. Seymour Marked by interracial desegregated worship and spiritual “fireworks” like tongues and prophecy Mystical experiences of God Desegregation and physically touching one another in acts of miraculous healing The Azusa Street Revival (1906) identified as a global catalyst for Assemblies of God denomination There is no founding theological figure, unlike Luther or Calvin Caleb Maskell emphasizes Pentecostalism's roots in “a founding set of experiences,” not a founding theological figure “Limits to what makes a church” Lack of ecclesiological clarity leaves Pentecostalism open to both renewal and fragmentation Leah highlights Pentecostalism as “a shared experience … a shared series of practices.” “Holy Rollers” and being “slain in the Spirit” “A different way of knowing” “Christians are made through an encounter with Jesus.” The global “charismatic movement” and how it has had cross-denominational Influence “Charismatic” was a mid-twentieth-century term for Spirit-led practices arising within mainline Protestant and Roman Catholic traditions Charismatic means “gifted” or “being given gifts” “‘Charismatic' has typically been a more inclusive word than ‘Pentecostal.'” Emphasis on personal spiritual gifts and intimate worship styles “They are not respecters of institutions.” Figures like Oral Roberts and Amy Semple McPherson were “too big” for denominational constraints “Too-bigness” as driven by both an over-inflated ego and spiritual mysticism Frederick Buechner: “The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet.” Spellbound, by Molly Worthen (see Conversing episode 212) What are the origins and key ideas of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? New Apostolic Reformation: “a form of institutionalized charismatic identity that builds on grassroots consensus.” “NAR” coined by C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary in the 1990s Wagner promoted post-denominationalism and “reality-based” church governance centred on individual charismatic gifts Emerged from a “larger soup” of charismatic ideas—often practiced before being systematized. Closely tied to the “Seven Mountain Mandate”: that Christians should influence key societal sectors—family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government The role of dominion theology and political alignment “The convergence of egos, the convergence of ethos … is a natural thing to see emerging.” “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance.” Payne sees dominionism as a Pentecostal-flavoured version of a broader conservative political strategy. “Charismatics and Pentecostals are everywhere … so we should expect them on the far right.” Many deny the NAR label even as they operate in its mode. ”When Bob Dylan's in your church, suddenly your church is relevant, whether you like it or not.” Defining “Dominionism” “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance. Cultural relevance says church should fit—not prophetically, but should fit all but seamlessly—into modes of culture that people are already in.” What are the “Seven Mountains of Culture”?  Family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government—”the world would go better if Christians were in charge of each of those arenas.” “At no point in time in the history of these United States and the history of European settlers in the new world have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.” Trump, Zionism, and global Pentecostal nationalism Christian nationalism versus religious Right “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy. … They think the nation of Israel is the nation of all nations.” “Isn't this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?” Anti-institutional and anti-structural How Trump seeks power and ego affirmation Christian theocratic rule? ”It may simply be a part of what it is to be a Christian is to say, at some level, within the spheres that I'm given authority in, I ought to have the right kind of influence, whatever it is.” “ I think what's scary about the moment that we're in right now is in fact the chaos.” A book about Donald Trump—God's Chaos Candidate, by Lance Wall ”The beliefs in divine prophecy are so widespread that they transcend partisanship.” Black Pentecostalism: immune to the charms of Trump and populist conservatives Trump's Zionist overtures strategically captured charismatic loyalty The rise of global Pentecostal nationalism in countries like India, Brazil, and Guatemala parallels US patterns. “They don't actually care long-term about American democracy.” “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.” Prosperity gospel Dominionism and the Roman Catholic “doctrine of discovery” The gospel of Christ as “sorting power” “It is a portable form of nationalism.” Concerns about power, order, and eschatology Mark Labberton reflects on Fuller Seminary's controversial role in NAR's intellectual development. Payne critiques the equation of widespread Pentecostal practices with far-right dominionism. “What's scary … is the chaos. And a number of people associated with NAR have celebrated that.” NAR theology often prioritizes divine chaos over institutional order. Warnings against super-biblical apostolic authority and spiritual authoritarianism. Pentecostalism beyond politics “There's a vivid essentialism—make everything great and all the nations will gather.” Vineyard worship as a counterweight to dominionism—emphasizing intimacy and mystical union with Christ. “That emphasis on Jesus as a friend … is a really beautiful image of God.” Vineyard music helped export a gentle, intimate charismatic spirituality. About Leah Payne Leah Payne is associate professor of American religious history at Portland Seminary and a 2023–2024 public fellow at the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI). She holds a PhD from Vanderbilt University, and her research explores the intersection of religion, politics, and popular culture. Payne is author of God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music (Oxford University Press, 2024), and co-host of Rock That Doesn't Roll, a Public Radio Exchange (PRX) podcast about Christian rock and its listeners, and Weird Religion, a religion and pop culture podcast. Her writing and research has appeared in The Washington Post, NBC News, Religion News Service, and Christianity Today. About Caleb Maskell Caleb Maskell is the associate national director of theology and education for Vineyard USA. Born in London, he immigrated with his family to New Jersey in 1986, at the age of nine. Caleb has been involved in leadership in the Vineyard movement for twenty-five years. After spending a gap year at the Toronto Airport Vineyard School of Ministry in 1995, he went to the University of Chicago to study theology, philosophy, and literature in the interdisciplinary undergraduate Fundamentals program. While there, he joined the core planting team of the Hyde Park Vineyard Church, where he served as a worship leader, a small group leader, a setter-up of chairs, and whatever else Rand Tucker asked him to do. After college, full of questions that had emerged from the beautiful collision of serious academic study and the practical realities of church planting, Caleb enrolled in the MDiv program at Yale Divinity School. For four years, he immersed himself in the study of theology, church history, and Scripture, while also leading worship and working with middle school and high school youth groups. After graduating in 2004, he worked for three years as the associate director of the Jonathan Edwards Center at Yale University. In 2007, along with his wife Kathy and their friends Matt and Hannah Croasmun, Caleb planted Elm City Vineyard Church in New Haven, Connecticut. That year, he also began a PhD program at Princeton University, focusing on the history of American religion, with an additional emphasis in African American studies. After moving to Manhattan for four years while Kathy went to seminary, the Maskells ended up in suburban Philadelphia, where Caleb completed his PhD while teaching regularly at Princeton Theological Seminary, and serving as the worship pastor at Blue Route Vineyard Church. Since 2010, Caleb has led the Society of Vineyard Scholars, which exists to foster and sustain a community of theological discourse in and for the Vineyard movement. Caleb is passionate about developing leaders and institutions that will help to produce a healthy, courageous, and hospitable future for the church in the twenty-first century. Caleb and Kathy now live with their two kids, Josiah and Emmanuelle, in the heart of Denver, where Kathy pastors East Denver Vineyard Church. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Kara Powell serves as the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute and as the Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Seminary. Kara recently authored a new book along with Jake Mulder and Raymond Chang entitled "Future Focused Churches." They did extensive research involving over one thousand churches with the goal of helping churches connect with the next generations.Kara offers several proven best practices for helping your ministry close the generation gap. This conversation is a must for any church wanting to invigorate the atmosphere with the life that comes from connecting with youth.Show Notes: https://www.95network.org/future-focused-churches-w-kara-powell-episode-287/Support the show

Dr. Gerry Breshears (Ph.D. Fuller Seminary) is a professor of theology at Western Seminary, a pastor of pastors, elder at Grace Community Church (Gresham, OR), and a happy great-grandfather. To listen to the last part of our conversation about women in leadership, become a Theology in the Raw patron at patreon.com/theologyintheraw Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Romantic relationships are sacred, powerful, and life-giving. But I don't have to tell you how difficult it is to love and let yourself be loved.Marriage and family therapist Dr. Terry Hargrave has been helping couples in crisis restore broken relationships for decades, teaching them how to get unstuck, improve communication, and move beyond destructive coping mechanisms—to find reciprocity, self-affirming confidence, emotional regulation, and a joyful, lasting love.In a world marked by loneliness, disconnection, and emotional dysregulation, Hargrave offers powerful insights on the human need for identity, safety, and belonging—and how we can heal the wounds that keep us stuck. Drawing on decades of therapeutic experience and deep personal reflection, Hargrave explains how coping mechanisms like blame, shame, control, and escape can damage relationships—and how the peace cycle of nurture, self-valuing, balanced give-and-take, and connection can restore wholeness. He discusses his unique approach to the healing and restorative power of relationships, which lifts us up to our potential, encouraging us toward a nurturing, self-valuing, non-controlling reciprocity, and true connection.In this conversation with Terry Hargrave, we discuss:How to turn around a relationship in crisis and get off the emotional rollercoasterHow to build security and trust in order to improve or repair a marriage or long-term relationshipCoping mechanisms of blame, shame, control, and escapePractical steps to learn emotional self-regulationWhat to do when only one partner is working on a relationshipThe role of the brain and neuroplasticity in relational repairAnd the spiritual underpinnings of Terry's approach to restoration therapyEpisode Highlights"It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing—until you claim your belovedness for yourself, nothing will change.""Relationships are a mirror—we discover who we are through how others see us.""Blame, shame, control, and escape—nothing good comes from these coping mechanisms.""Understanding doesn't produce change. Doing produces change.""When we nurture, self-value, connect, and cooperate, unleashed joy happens.""Thriving is doing more of your best self, not learning something new."Helpful Links and ResourcesRestoration Therapy Training ResourcesThe Mindful Marriage by Ron Deal and Nan Deal (with Terry and Sharon Hargrave)Five Days to a New Self by Terry HargraveEmotionally Focused Therapy and Sue Johnson's LegacyShow NotesIntroduction to Terry Hargrave and the importance of Restoration Therapy today"We are still the same humans, but with a bigger pipe of problems and fewer emotional connections."Emotional dysregulation linked to identity and safety threatsRelationships as a mirror to the self and necessary for human thriving"For there to be a me, there has to be a thou."Why relationships are difficult: imperfection, wounding, and unmet needsHow family of origin wounds influence coping styles"Families don't mean to screw each other up, but somehow they manage to."Introduction of the four major unhealthy coping mechanisms: blame, shame, control, and escapeHow overachievement, perfectionism, and withdrawal are survival strategies from early wounding"Your greatest strength might actually be an old coping habit getting in the way of intimacy."The relational signs that coping mechanisms are damaging relationshipsHealing through self-regulation: speaking truth to yourself with love"Put your hand on your heart and remind yourself of who you really are."The difference between co-regulation and self-regulation in emotional healingRestoration Therapy's peace cycle: nurture, self-value, balance, connection"Nothing good comes from blame, shame, control, or escape."The role of practice and neuroplasticity in forming new relational habits"Doing, not just understanding, is what rewires the brain."How thriving relationships move from neediness to adventurous partnershipIntimacy as knowing yourself more fully through connection, not just need satisfactionCooperative growth and mutual flourishing as hallmarks of thrivingApplication of restoration principles to broader societal healing and reconciliation"Unleashed joy happens when we choose nurture and connection, even with adversaries."The critical role of faith in affirming belovedness and ultimate identity"Everyone else and even God can tell you you're beloved—but you have to claim it for yourself."Practical advice for knowing when to seek therapyWhere to find Restoration Therapy-trained therapistsResources for learning more: Mindful Marriage and other Restoration Therapy booksThe key takeaways that I will carry with me from this conversation are the following:You can change. Your relationship can change. But it takes a daily practice of hard work to create lasting change.And though you might fail, there is hope that you can begin again.Our coping mechanisms are not superpowers. They hurt us and the people we love.Understanding is not enough. Action and behavior has to follow for change to occur.[Any others?] It takes two to tango, but that doesn't get you off the hook from doing the work on yourself.And finally, a thriving relationship creates joy all around it, within a family, in a community, and it shows how personal relationships can change society.About Terry HargraveDr. Terry Hargrave. Until he retired recently, he was the Evelyn and Frank Freed Professor of Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary, and a nationally recognized therapist known for his pioneering work with intergenerational families.He's most well known as the founder of Restoration Therapy, which combines advantages of Attachment Theory, Emotional Regulation, and Mindfulness—all in an efficient and organized format that allows both the therapist and client to understand old habits and destructive patterns of behavior and promote change in both individual mental and spiritual health, in order to transform our most intimate relationships.Terry has authored or co-authored over 35 professional articles and fifteen books including Restoration Therapy: Understanding and Guiding Healing in Marriage and Family Therapy and Families and Forgiveness: Healing Wounds in the Intergenerational Family.In his latest book project, he worked with his wife Sharon, also a licensed marriage and family therapist. It's called The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself, and it's a practical manual co-written with Ron and Nan Deal about how they healed their relationship after almost losing it.He's presented internationally on relationship dynamics, family and marriage restoration, the complexities of intergenerational families, healing and reconciliation, and the process of aging.His work has been featured on ABC News, 20/20, Good Morning America, and CBS This Morning as well as several national magazines and newspapers.You can learn more about Terry Hargrave and his work—and find books, practical resources, and professional training materials at: restorationtherapytraining.com. About the Thrive CenterLearn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter About Dr. Pam KingDr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking. About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

Historian and journalist Molly Worthen explores the mysterious and potent force of charisma, and its power to shape American identity, culture, politics, and religion. She explains how storytelling, transcendence, and authority are used by America's most charismatic leaders. Drawing on her new book Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History from the Puritans to Donald Trump, Worthen shares how charismatic authority reveals deep human desires for meaning, agency, and transcendence. The conversation explores themes of vulnerability, spiritual hunger, religious disaffiliation, and the evolving nature of belief and belonging in modern society. Worthen unpacks the often-overlooked distinction between charisma and charm or celebrity, examining the role of storytelling in cultivating authority and devotion. She also shares how researching this subject intersected with her own spiritual journey, culminating in her recent conversion to Christianity. Key Moments Molly Worthen discusses her latest book, *Spellbound.* Charisma: a relational, story-driven phenomenon, not mere charm or celebrity Our religious impulse persists despite declining traditional affiliation Worthen's personal spiritual journey: from intellectual agnosticism to Christian faith while writing the book Donald Trump's narrative charisma and religious-political appeal examined in depth Human longing for transcendence and meaning as the root of charismatic power Episode Highlights “Evangelism is just telling people what happened to you.” “The heart of charisma is the leader's ability to tell a story… that does a better job at explaining the chaos and the suffering.” “We want the comfort of knowing that some force larger than us is ultimately in charge—and yet we also seek agency.” “I came to realize I was writing a book that was fundamentally about spiritual hunger—and that I myself had that hunger too.” “Authenticity as a personal style has no necessary relationship with honesty.” “We kid ourselves if we think more sources solve the mystery of charisma—reality is an asymptote we never perfectly reach.” About Molly Worthen Molly Worthen is Associate Professor of History at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, specializing in North American religion, politics, global Christianity, and the history of ideas. She is a contributing writer for The New York Times and author of several books, including Apostles of Reason and The Man on Whom Nothing Was Lost. Her most recent book is Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History from the Puritans to Donald Trump. Show Notes Authority—who should we listen to? Internal battles within American evangelicalism The definition of charisma and its distinction from charm, celebrity, and power Charisma: “ the allure in a leader that gives him or her the power to move a crowd that is premised on a relationship. … you need two parties at least. It's not solely a quality of fluorescence that shines out from the individual without other people to interact with it.” The leader's ability to tell a story that explains the audience's experience of life Paradoxical quality: we want our decision to make a difference in our fate, but we also want some being or force larger than us to make it all okay. “ It's not just about looking at the one who is the special anointed one, but it's that somehow through that person, I too, or we too, see ourselves more clearly.” Special revelation and stories of experiencing God in particular ways “Capturing the ineffable” Role of charismatic leaders in American religious and political life Impact of Joseph Smith, Anne Hutchinson, JFK, and Adlai Stevenson Why institutional religion no longer captures spiritual impulse for many Americans Storytelling as the essence of charismatic authority Evolution of American individualism and the cult of authenticity How mass media, trauma, and cultural crises shape charismatic influence Coming to terms with the limits of your “source base”—”Reality is an asymptote.” “It's that sort of transcendent storytelling ability that is the heart of charisma.” Mormonism and the charisma of Joseph Smith Leaders like JFK and Adlai Stevenson offered different models of modern charisma “So much of my book is really about the fortunes of established institutions in American culture because charismatic figures always define themselves vis-a-vis institutions.” Routinizing charisma (cf. Max Weber) “The gap or the consistency between what our subjects are, are thinking and intending consciously and what they actually do.” Intuition vs analysis—steeping in cultural milieu and operating out of personal life experiences The Puritan heretic, Anne Hutchinson “Very few humans are out and out cynics.” Charismatic figures aren't always attractive or eloquent—they resonate through meaning-making “ The religious impulse is finding a place to land other than organized religion.” Protestant roots of American consciousness tied to authority and self-discovery Humanist psychology and positive thinking “The age of the gurus” Charisma and Contemporary Politics: Donald Trump Trump's story of victimhood, self-made success, and defiance of institutions as a charismatic myth Trump's stream-of-consciousness style perceived as authenticity by many followers. “For example, his rambling stream of consciousness, speaking style that actually is a core, is core to his appeal, I think for many Trump supporters because it comes across as a kind of authenticity—as a willingness to tell it how it is and speak off the top of his head. And authenticity as a personal style has no necessary relationship with honesty in terms of correspondence to, you know, empirically verifiable facts.” The alignment between his narrative and the prosperity gospel ”While Donald Trump is no one's idea of an Orthodox Christian, he grew up in Norman Vincent Peale's Church in New York City, Marble Collegiate Church, hearing the Prosperity Gospel, the gospel of positive thinking.” ”I think Trump has a, has a really acute spiritual instinct for. That picture of reality one in which we can really reshape reality with our minds.” Early support from independent charismatic church networks shaped his rise. Importance of positive thinking theology (e.g., Norman Vincent Peale) in his spiritual instincts. “I suppose I was about two thirds of the way through the rough draft of this book when I was rudely interrupted by the Holy Spirit. I have always studied Christianity as a very sympathetic and, frankly, envious outsider and never was entirely happy with my agnostic fence sitting, but also wasn't actively looking to resolve my metaphysical questions.” “ I've always had this conviction that humans are fundamentally religious creatures and they have this impulse to connect to a transcendent source of meaning to worship.” “I came to realize that I was writing a book that was fundamentally about spiritual hunger and how humans cope with it. But that I myself had had that hunger as well—that I'm not immune to that feature of the human dilemma.” “We want to be pulled into something transcendent, where we are more fully ourselves.” Praying for a mystical experience—at least being “strangely warmed” ”God had already done something to my desires—I was walking in the direction of Jesus already.” “ I always see every kind of historical problem as somehow having to do with contesting visions of human nature.” “There's this silly misconception that Christianity is intellectually stultifying—that to become a orthodox, traditional Christian is to shut off all kinds of questions and accept a black and white way of thinking. And that has not been my experience.” Research project on miracles “ Evangelism is just telling people what happened to you.” Conversion was driven by rigorous academic inquiry into the resurrection and New Testament Experience echoed themes in the book: story, vulnerability, and being seen Her analysis: “God had already done something to my desires before the arguments convinced me.” Post-conversion excitement about theological study, healing, and miracles Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Today, I'm joined by Cara Meredith, author of the new book Church Camp. We're digging into the ways camp shapes our faith, our friendships, and our sense of who belongs. We get real about the fun memories, but also the uncomfortable parts—who was included, who was left out, and what messages we picked up along the way. Cara and I talk about how camp can turn faith into a checklist—who's in, who's out, who fits and who doesn't. But we also imagine what camp could be if it became a place of real belonging, where every kid was seen and valued, no matter their story. If you've ever looked back on your camp experience with mixed feelings, or wondered how those weeks shaped your view of God and yourself, you'll find something here. This episode is about holding the good and the hard together, asking better questions, and dreaming about what's possible. So join us as we go to camp.A sought-after speaker, writer, and public theologian, Cara Meredith is the author of Church Camp and The Color of Life. Passionate about issues of justice, race, and privilege, Cara holds a master of theology from Fuller Seminary and is a postulant for Holy Orders in the Episcopal Church. With a background in education and nonprofit work, she wears more hats than she probably ought, but mostly just enjoys playing with words, a lot. Her writing has been featured in national media outlets such as The Oregonian, The New York Times, The Living Church, The Christian Century, and Baptist News Global, among others. She lives with her family in Oakland, California.Cara's Book:Church CampCara's Recommendation:Here I AmSubscribe to Our Substack: Shifting CultureConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.usGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTubeConsider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below Support the show

Drawing from Numbers 27, Mary Ellen Azada reminds us of our unique call and God's affirmation of women in ministry. Mary Ellen Azada is a pastor and spiritual director of the Pastoral Formation Initiative at Fuller Seminary. Recorded at Fuller's All-Seminary Chapel on May 7, 2025.  

Mike Iversen came from an Evangelical background, and after getting degrees in English and Earth Science, he felt called to bring his skills to youth ministry, going on to get an M.A. in Theology from Fuller Seminary. During his studies, he also spent many years working with Young Life. His study of apologetics, Church history, and more helped him realize the need for a solid authority in a world plagued by relativism. He was also drawn by the reality of Christ's power in the sacraments, and knew he had to come home to the Catholic Church.

You can't be moral on your own. That's a radical idea in this time of moral outrage, but thriving in public life requires a sense of mutual accountability, belonging, and hospitality for each other.Mona Siddiqui is a professor of religion and society, an author, commentator, and public intellectual, and she suggests that the virtues of loyalty, gratitude, hospitality, and hope can lead us through the common struggle of being human together, living forward into a thriving life of public faith and renewed moral imagination.As Professor of Islamic and Interreligious Studies, Assistant Principal for Religion and Society, and Dean international for the Middle-East at the University of Edinburgh, she is an international beacon of hope that we might find restoration, hospitality, and flourishing in our world of struggle. Working through questions of loyalty, responsibility, belonging, gratitude, robust faith, and what we owe each other, we can find abundant resources for thriving and spiritual health.In this conversation with Mona Siddiqui, we discuss:What is a moral life?The connection between faith, spirituality, and living a moral life of responsibility and integrityThe difference between cultivating virtuous character and doing justiceHow to thrive in a pluralistic society marked by constant struggle and conflictThe promise of gratitude and hospitality in a life of thrivingAnd how to pursue a hopeful, forward-looking approach to restoration in the wake of harm, loss, pain, and suffering.Episode Highlights"Our moral life only becomes alive when we are in a relationship—you can't be moral on your own.""Life is all about searching. Life is all about introspection. Life is all about reflection.""The good life is hard; it's not about ease, but about living with accountability and responsibility.""Hospitality isn't just welcoming—it's negotiating belonging, loyalty, and a sense of shared life.""Gratitude can liberate, but it can also create hierarchies and transactional indebtedness.""Hope is not naive optimism—without hope, how do you live, build relationships, or carry forward at all?"Helpful Links and ResourcesFollow Mona on X (Twitter) at @monasiddiqui7*Christians, Muslims, and Jesus,* by Mona SiddiquiHuman Struggle, Christian and Muslim Perspectives, by Mona SiddiquiA Theology of Gratitude: Christian and Muslim Perspectives, by Mona SiddiquiMy Way: A Muslim Woman's Journey by Mona SiddiquiThe Moral Maze, BBC Radio 4Show NotesMona Siddiqui's personal background in Islamic jurisprudence and public theology“I got into Islamic jurisprudence because of personal connection and intellectual curiosity.”Navigating public discourse post-9/11 as a non-white, non-Christian scholarImportance of pluralism and living within diverse identities"I need to create a space that appeals to a wider audience—not just about what I think."Growing up with intellectual freedom in a traditional Islamic householdHow faith upbringing seeds lifelong moral introspection"You are always answering to yourself—you know when you have not lived rightly."Developing comparative theology through seminars with Christian scholarsOverlapping themes between Islamic and Christian thought on the good lifeThe significance of accountability over blanket forgiveness"Belonging is crucial to being a good citizen—you can't flourish alone."Exploration of loyalty: loyalty to people vs loyalty to principlesCivic loyalty and critical engagement with the state“Because I feel loyal to my country, I should also be its critic.”The role of prayer in cultivating internal moral awarenessReflection on virtues: gratitude, loyalty, hopeThe dark sides of gratitude and loyalty in institutionsParenting with a focus on integrity, accountability, and faithfulness“Live so that whatever you say in public, you can say at home—and vice versa.”Emphasis on public engagement: speaking clearly, making complex ideas accessible"Radio became a gift—people want complex ideas made simple and meaningful."Remaining hopeful despite the culture of outrage and cynicismYoung people's resilience and persistent hopefulnessHospitality as a fundamental ethic for creating trust and belongingStruggle as a normative, transformative experience that shapes flourishing"Thriving is not just freedom—it's centering, writing, speaking, and deep human connection."The importance of relationships in thriving and flourishing“Most of us realize—relationships are the hardest, but the most rewarding.”Redefining gratitude: avoiding transactional gratitude, cultivating authentic gratefulnessStruggle cultivates introspection, resilience, creativity, and a deeper moral lifePam King's Key TakeawaysI can't be moral on my own. But my decisions are my own. In the end, living with integrity means living with virtue.Personal and public flourishing are deeply connected to our lives of faith and spirituality; and all of us need to bring the depths of our personal spiritual commitments into public life.We can offer hope and freedom from fear to each other when we expand our hospitality to all persons.The practice of gratitude in the face of our vulnerability is easier said than done—but is a strengthening response to uncertainty and suffering.And finally, human struggle is something we hold in common, and it can be redeemed for creativity, beauty, healing restoration, and a reminder of our dignity as human creatures.About Mona SiddiquiMona Siddiqui is Professor of Islamic and Interreligious Studies, Assistant Principal for Religion and Society, and Dean international for the Middle-East at the University of Edinburgh.Her research areas are primarily in the field of Islamic jurisprudence and ethics and Christian-Muslim relations. She's the author of many books, including Human Struggle: Christian and Muslim Perspectives,Hospitality in Islam: Welcoming in God's Name, and My Way: A Muslim Woman's Journey. A scholar of theology, philosophy, and ethics, she's conducted international research on Islam and Christianity, gratitude, loyalty and fidelity, hope, reconciliation and inter-faith theological dialogue, and human struggle.Mona is well known internationally as a public intellectual and a speaker on issues around religion, ethics and public life and regularly appears as a media commentator on BBC Radio 4 and BBC Radio Scotland's Thought for the Day and The Moral Maze.A recipient of numerous awards and recognition, she is a fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, she gave the prestigious Gifford Lectures in Natural Theology. She was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences as an International Honorary Member. And Dr. Siddiqui was appointed Officer of the Order of the British Empire, which is just steps below the highest Knighting—specifically for her public interfaith efforts.To learn more, I'd highly recommend her books, but you can also follow her on X @monasiddiqui7. About the Thrive CenterLearn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter About Dr. Pam KingDr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking. About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

Elise White Diaz is well-versed in the challenges facing diverse students from difficult backgrounds. Prior to her work in public education, Elise's passion for trauma-informed pedagogy began when she moved to Tegucigalpa, Honduras to serve at a school for child laborers in the garbage dump. There she taught bilingual and ESL education at the secondary level, and learned so much from her students who overcame obstacles and went on to college.  Upon returning to the United States, Elise brought her experiences to a diverse district in North Texas. She wove together principles from culturally-relevant, trauma-informed education and language acquisition in innovative ways, bringing dramatic gains in standardized test (STAAR) scores. Soon after, she began to mentor and coach teachers in how to recreate these routines. Elise has served in various roles in Emergent Bilingual education, including co-teaching, instructional coaching, writing curriculum, and offering professional development to Texas schools. As a consultant for Seidlitz Education, Elise enjoys supporting teachers in their important work of building language and connection across cultures and obstacles. She holds a Master's degree from Fuller Seminary in Intercultural Studies and lives in the Dallas area with her husband and two children. She is a member of the National Association for Bilingual Education and Women-for-Orphans-Worldwide, and returns to Central America wherever she can.

“Leadership is defined by listening.” In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton explains the essential role listening plays in leadership and successful communication.  Leaders are often known for what they've said publicly or privately, but in actual fact, the experience of leadership and the effectiveness of leadership is determined by the mutuality of listening and learning that goes on between the primary leader and the team that they're working with at any given time. Here, Mark shares from his decades of leadership experience as a Presbyterian minister and seminary president. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes Relationships of trust “ Listening is as critical to the existence of leadership as it is to the partnership of leadership.” “ If we don't have listening, then the partnership that leadership requires simply can't exist.” What leadership is really about: the people you're leading are known, served, discovered, changed, renewed Tone-deaf leaders: leaders who are out of touch If you don't want to be out of touch or tone deaf, “enter the room listening.” “Leaders are often known for what they've said publicly or privately, but in actual fact, the experience of leadership and the effectiveness of leadership is determined by the mutuality of listening and learning that goes on between the primary leader and the team that they're working with at any given time.” Mutuality of learning and listening together—adding oxygen to the room Bringing part of yourself versus bringing your whole self to a leadership relationship “ Let's not listen to one another first critically and negatively. Let's listen to one another with hope, with earnestness, with a genuine desire to receive their perspective and letting that actually inform how we lead.” “When I ran into people who are having difficulties with their senior leader, it's almost always around the leader's failure to listen. At one level or another, they are not hearing the people that they're leading.” “A leader who doesn't listen is like a person deciding to jump off a cliff. …  The longer they don't listen, the more they are isolated by themselves and at risk.” Leadership enriched by an understanding of each other “A shared communion of decision making” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

When familiar strategies fall short and the path ahead is uncertain, how do leaders respond with clarity and courage? In this episode, Dr. Tod Bolsinger—founder of AE Sloan Leadership, executive director of the De Pree Center Church Leadership Institute, and associate professor at Fuller Seminary—offers powerful insights on navigating rapid change with adaptive resilience, humility, and a renewed sense of purpose. Find full show notes here: https://bit.ly/441drtodbolsinger Share the love. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate it on Apple Podcasts and write a brief review. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-flourishing-culture-podcast/id1060724960?mt=2   By doing so, you will help spread our podcast to more listeners, and thereby help more Christian workplaces learn to build flourishing cultures. | Follow our Host, Al Lopus, on X https://twitter.com/allopus  | Follow our Host, Al Lopus, on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/allopus/ | Email our host at al@workplaces.org  

Strong leadership is born not from control, but from authentic community and the cultivation of people and teams. Nathan Hatch, former president of Wake Forest University and esteemed historian, joins Mark Labberton to reflect on the nature of transformative leadership. Drawing from his decades of experience at Notre Dame and Wake Forest—and from his new book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders—Hatch explores how leaders cultivate thriving institutions through humility, vision, and empowerment. Hatch shares his personal journey from growing up in a Presbyterian home to leading major universities, while reflecting on the comomunity, character, instincts, and freedom required for lasting institutional impact. Episode Highlights "Organizations aren't self-generating—you bet on people, not on strategy." "Organizations are best served when you have a team of like-minded people, each using their own strengths." "Leadership has to flow out of who you are authentically—you can't try to be someone else." "If you have exceptional people, it takes management of a different form—it's collaboration." "Leadership is not about control but about strength: hiring strong people is harder, but it's transformative." "People read your real meanings, not your words—authenticity is the heart of leadership." Helpful Links & Resources The Gift of Transformative Leaders, by Nathan Hatch University of Notre Dame Wake Forest University Jim Collins - Good to Great About Nathan Hatch Dr. Nathan O. Hatch is President Emeritus of Wake Forest University and one of America's leading scholars of religion and higher education. Prior to his presidency at Wake Forest (2005–2021), Hatch served as provost at the University of Notre Dame. His groundbreaking scholarship in American religious history includes The Democratization of American Christianity, and his latest book is The Gift of Transformative Leaders. Hatch is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and continues to speak and write on leadership, higher education, and culture. Show Notes Raised in a Christian home; son of a Presbyterian minister and teacher Influenced early by history teacher and work experiences in Cabrini Green, Chicago Studied at Wheaton College, Washington University in St. Louis, and Johns Hopkins University Became an unlikely but successful historian at the University of Notre Dame Leadership philosophy shaped by early experiences with supportive professional teams and deep community and friendship How did the past come to change and create the world we live in? Transitioned from historian to administrator, balancing scholarship and administration Provost at Notre Dame: emphasized empowering faculty through development and resources President at Wake Forest: built strong leadership teams, expanded institutional vision Reflections on Father Theodore Hesburgh's visionary leadership at Notre Dame “Organizations aren't self-generating. … [it takes] a vision and leader.” "Leadership must be authentic; it must come out of who you are." The transformative impact of great leadership teams over hierarchical control Importance of raising institutional aspirations and empowering individuals to flourish "Hiring strong people makes the leader stronger, not weaker." Nathan Hatch's book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders Profiles 13 leaders who exemplify commitment, character, and institution-building Focus on people-centric leadership: authenticity, humility, vision Leaders described as radiating positivity, cultivating others, and advancing institutional missions Catholic and Protestant institutional differences in faith expression Creating inclusive religious life in pluralistic academic communities Investing in character education through initiatives like Wake Forest's scholarship programs Building culture: "Noticing people, investing in them, seeing their potential." “How do we help young people live their life?” Identifying and empowering exceptional talent Embracing unconventional hiring practices Building thriving, collaborative, life-giving teams Cultivating environments where people pursue a common good Navigating faculty-administration relationships with authenticity and transparency Facing organizational financial challenges without losing people-first priorities Leadership in contexts with limited resources: raising people's potential Authenticity and empathy are foundational to leadership Humility and commitment to the common good are non-negotiable Leaders must genuinely invest in the flourishing of others Institutions are transformed not by structures alone but by transformative people Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Send us a textThis week, I sit down with Dr. Phil Allen—a former All-American basketball player turned theologian, poet, and prophetic voice. From the basketball courts of North Carolina A&T to the halls of Fuller Seminary, Phil shares his remarkable journey from hoop dreams to a life dedicated to ministry, ethics, and racial healing.We explore his moving documentary “Open Wounds”, inspired by the tragic story of his grandfather—an untold chapter of racial violence that Phil discovered later in life. The film made its way to Sundance and now serves as a centerpiece for our discussion on generational trauma and redemption.We also dive into his powerful book, "The Prophetic Lens: The Camera and Black Moral Agency From MLK to Darnella Frazier", examining how the lens—literal and metaphorical—shapes our understanding of justice, especially in the wake of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, and others.Topics include:Phil's transformation from athlete to scholar and poetLife at North Carolina A&TThe making of Open WoundsFaith, ethics, race, and cultureThe power of video and voice in modern civil rightsRunning as a spiritual and physical disciplineThis conversation is thoughtful, raw, and full of hope. Tune in to hear how one man's story speaks to a much bigger truth, and calls us to learn, engage, resist, and at the same time, stay healthy.SHOW NOTESSupport the showBecome a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken's Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Bruce and Carolyn join Claire and Rachel to share about their new book At the Feet of Jesus: Encountering Christ in the Gospels, which will be released by IVP on April 25. They share about writing the book through many years of leading prayer retreats with students and church groups, the practice of Ignatian meditation and the joy of keeping our eyes on Jesus, as we follow the example of Mary of Bethany. Towards the end of the conversation, they also tell us about their upcoming En Route summer course in Italy, Martyrs, Monks and Mystics (May 18-31). BiosDr. D. Bruce Hindmarsh is the James M. Houston Professor of Spiritual Theology and Professor of the History of Christianity here at Regent. He earned his PhD in theology from Oxford University. His scholarly work focuses on the history of early British evangelicalism. Bruce is a fellow of the Royal Historical Society and a past president of the American Society of Church History. He is also an active lay member of an Anglican Church in Vancouver. Carolyn Hindmarsh holds a DMin from Fuller Seminary. She teaches New Testament Greek and spiritual theology at Regent College and is a trained spiritual director. Together, Bruce and Carolyn have often taught at Regent College and led church retreats.Previous Podcast AppearancesCarolyn Hindmarsh and Shirley Sullivan on Biblical Languages (Oct 2016)Bruce Hindmarsh on Early Evangelical Spirituality  (Feb 2018)Regent College Podcast Thanks for listening. Please like, rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice and share this episode with a friend. Follow Us on Social Media Facebook Instagram Youtube Keep in Touch Regent College Summer Programs Regent College Newsletter

Two-time Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist Nicholas Kristof (opinion columnist, the New York Times) reflects on his career of reporting from the front lines of injustice and human suffering, discussing hope, human resilience, and the urgency of responding to global injustice. An advocate for empathy-driven journalism that holds power accountable and communicates the stories of the most vulnerable, Kristof joins Mark Labberton in this episode to discuss his life's work of reporting from the world's most troubled regions—from Gaza to Congo, from rural Oregon to global centres of power. Known for his unsparing storytelling and deep empathy, Kristof shares the family roots and personal convictions that have shaped his lifelong pursuit of justice and hope. They also explore how despair and progress coexist, the role of faith and empathy in healing, and how local acts of courage can ripple globally. Grounded in gritty realism, but inspired by everyday heroes, Kristof invites us to resist numbness and embrace a hope that fights to make a difference. Stories from Gaza, Congo, Pakistan, and beyond Balancing heartbreak and hope in humanitarian reporting Why empathy must be cultivated and practiced The global impact of Christian activism and its complexities Episode Highlights “Side by side with the worst of humanity, you find the very best.” “We focus so much on all that is going wrong, that we leave people feeling numb and that it's hopeless … but people don't want to get engaged in things that are hopeless.” “Empathy is something that, like a muscle, can be nurtured.” “The worst kinds of evil and the greatest acts of courage are often just one decision apart.” “We are an amazing species—if we just get our act together.” “You can be sex positive and rape negative. I don't think there's an inconsistency there.” About Nicholas Kristof Nicholas Kristof is a two-time Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist, and is an opinion columnist for the New York Times, **where he was previously bureau chief in Hong Kong, Beijing, and Tokyo. Born, raised, and still working from his rural Oregon home, Yamhill, he is a graduate of Harvard and was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford. He is the co-author, with his wife Sheryl WuDunn, of five previous books: Tightrope, A Path Appears, Half the Sky, Thunder from the East, and China Wakes. In 2024, he published a memoir, *Chasing Hope: A Reporter's Life.* Books by Nicholas Kristof Tightrope A Path Appears Half the Sky Thunder from the East China Wakes Chasing Hope: A Reporter's Life Helpful Resources International Justice Mission Dr. Denis Mukwege – Nobel Peace Prize PEPFAR: The U.S. President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief Tim Keller's Final Interview with Kristof (NYT) Show Notes A voice of conscience How a global orientation for journalism developed Kristof reflects on his humble roots in Yamhill, Oregon, as the son of two immigrants “My dad was a Armenian refugee from Eastern Europe. His family had spied on the Nazis during World War II. They got caught. Some were executed by the Nazis, others were executed by the Soviet communists, and my dad was very lucky to make it out alive and was sponsored by a family in the US in 1952.” “I think that one fundamental mistake that bleeding hearts make, whether they're bleeding hearts in journalism or in the non-profit community or in advocacy, is that we focus so much on all that is going wrong that we leave people feeling numb and feeling that it's hopeless, so there's no point in engaging. And there's pretty good evidence from social-psychology experiments that people don't want to get engaged in things that are hopeless. They want to make a difference. And so I think that we need to both acknowledge all the challenges we face but also remind people that there can be a better outcome if they put their shoulder to the wheel.” Extraordinary changes for justice and what's going right David Brooks: “A deeply flawed country that also managed to do good in the world.” ”It just breaks my heart that kids are dying unnecessarily.” On losing PEPFAR foreign aid: “I hope that this damage can be repaired and that bleeding hearts of the left and the right can work together to try to help restore some of these initiatives.” The tragedies that followed from dismantling USAID Kristof's book Chasing Hope “The fact is that I've seen some terrible things, and I think I may have a mild case of PTSD from, you know, seeing too much.” Nicholas Kristof on Gaza: “I don't see Israel and Hamas as morally equivalent, but I absolutely see an Israeli child, a Palestinian child, and an American child as moral equivalents.  And we don't treat them that way.” “What human beings share is that when terrible things happen, some people turn into psychopaths and sociopaths, and other people turn into heroes.” Cowardice and malevolent tendencies Empathy can be nurtured Children dying without anti-retroviral drugs in South Sudan Empathy Project in Canada Mass literature to inspire perspective taking Uncle Tom's Cabin Black Beauty and animal rights/well-being Kristof's run for Oregon governor Eastern Congo and UNICEF “A child is raped every thirty minutes in Eastern Congo.” Dr. Denis Mukwege, Nobel Peace Prize laureate treating women brutally injured by militia rape in Bukavu, a city in eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo. Small gestures of compassion as an empathy grower for local communities “One of the lessons I think of Congo is that violence can be and inhumanity can be terribly contagious.” Genocide in Rwanda in 1994 The global sex-trafficking crisis “We don't have the moral authority to tell other countries to do better unless we clean up our own act.” The American sex-trafficking crisis: systemic failures such as foster care pipelines into trafficking “There are no statistics, but I think it's plausible that a girl in foster care is more likely to emerge to be trafficked than she is to graduate from a four-year college.” American sex-trafficking practices by PornHub and X-Videos: “Their business model is monetizing kids.” “You can be sex positive and rape negative. I don't think there's an inconsistency there, and I, I think we've just blurred that too often.” Christianity's disappointing response to injustice Nicholas Kristof's engagement with the activism and theology of the Christian church William Wilberforce's anti-slavery movement in the 1780s President Bush's establishment of PEPFAR in 2003: “This incredible program to reduce the burden of AIDS that has saved 26 million lives so far. It's the most important program of any country in my adult lifetime in terms of saving lives.” “Evangelicals are very good in terms of tithing and donating money to good causes, but they've often opposed government programs  that would create opportunity and address these problems.” “Liberals are personally stingy, but much more supportive of government programs that that make a difference.” Criticizing the dismantling of global aid programs like USAID: “How can you read the Gospels and think this is good?” “I think being part of a religious community has led people to do good works together.” Christian advocacy for freedom of religion Kristof on scripture and belief: “We read the Bible and develop our religious views, and I think so often just reflects our priors rather than what the text says.” A closing example of hope: The Afghan war “We are an amazing species if we just get our act together.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

For some of us, Christian summer camp is where we felt most at home. But for campers at white Evangelical church camps in particular, camp was also often the place to inherit an image of God—and of each other—that was incomplete at best and toxic at worst. Author Cara Meredith joins Amy Julia Becker on the podcast to explore belonging, betrayal, and new beginnings as they talk about Cara's latest book, Church Camp: Bad Skits, Cry Night, and How White Evangelicalism Betrayed a Generation. They examine:Personal experiences of church camp, including joy, exclusion, and betrayalComplexities of faith and belongingEmotional manipulationReconstructing faithDeciding if church camp is right for your child_MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:Amy Julia's Live, In-Person Workshop on May 3: Reimagining Family Life with DisabilityFree resource: 5 Ways to Experience God's Love and Practice PeaceSurprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church by N.T. Wright_WATCH this conversation on YouTube by clicking here. READ the full transcript and access detailed show notes by clicking here or visiting amyjuliabecker.com/podcast._ABOUT:Cara Meredith is a speaker, public theologian, and development director who found home at a church camp in the Santa Cruz Mountains. After serving in various roles, she continued as a speaker for two decades at camps up and down the West Coast. With a master of theology (Fuller Seminary) and a background in education and nonprofit work, she is also the author of The Color of Life. Her writing has been featured in national media outlets such as The Oregonian, The New York Times, The Christian Century, and Christianity Today, among others. She lives with her family in Oakland, California. CONNECT with Cara on her website (carameredith.com) or on Facebook and Instagram. ___Let's stay in touch. Subscribe to my newsletter to receive weekly reflections that challenge assumptions about the good life, proclaim the inherent belovedness of every human being, and envision a world of belonging where everyone matters.We want to hear your thoughts. Send us a text!Connect with me: Instagram Facebook YouTube Website Thanks for listening!

Today, Cara Meredith and I talk about what church camp gets right (and wrong) about community.Cara Meredith is the author of Church Camp: Bad Skits, Cry Night, and How White Evangelicalism Betrayed a Generation (Broadleaf Books, 2025). She is also a sought-after speaker, public theologian, and development director who found home at a church camp in the Santa Cruz Mountains. After serving in various roles, she continued as a speaker for two decades at camps up and down the West Coast. With a master of theology (Fuller Seminary) and a background in education and nonprofit work, she is also the author of The Color of Life. Her writing has been featured in national media outlets such as The Oregonian, The New York Times, The Christian Century, and Christianity Today, among others. She lives with her family in Oakland, California.  Church Camp comes out April 29 and is available wherever you buy books. You can follow Cara on socials @carameredithwrites. Check out her Substack and her website, carameredith.com. Join the Found Family crew over on Substack and get your free Found Family Cheat Sheet! Support the show

Send us a textAfter attending a recent event featuring Dr. Jemar Tisby, I had the chance to connect with the host of that gathering, Professor Jessica Wai-Fong Wong, Associate Professor of Systematic Theology at Azusa Pacific University and author of the groundbreaking book Disordered: Holy Icons and Racial Myths.In this episode, we reflect on that event, where Dr. Tisby shared moving stories about his relationship with the late Dr. Bill Pennell of Fuller Theological Seminary—a pioneering voice in racial awareness whose bold challenges to white evangelicalism began in the late '60s and continued for decades.Dr. Wong, herself deeply influenced by Dr. Pennell's legacy, joins me for a conversation that dives into the concept of whiteness as an archetype and its enduring impact on Christian theology and the history of race. Drawing from her own journey as a Chinese American woman raised in predominantly white spaces in Texas, Dr. Wong shares insights from her book, including what it means to "aspire to whiteness" and the painful experience of being cast as an "anti-icon" in a white-dominated religious context.We also explore my own experience within a Korean megachurch in Southern California, examining how whiteness becomes synonymous with order, while everyone else—Black, brown, Asian, Jewish, or female—is often seen as a threat to it.This is more than a theological discussion—it's a deep dive into history, identity, and the present-day political and spiritual moment we're all navigating. SHOW NOTESSupport the showBecome a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken's Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Andrea Cammarota invites us to pay attention to the small victories and light of God amid discouraging times. Andrea Cammarota is a Fuller Seminary chaplain. Recorded at Fuller's All-Seminary Chapel on April 9, 2025.

In this episode, Russell Moore, editor-in-chief of Christianity Today, joins Mark Labberton to discuss the seismic political, moral, cultural, and spiritual crises facing American evangelicalism and how to respond. Reflecting on his own journey from the Southern Baptist Convention to his current role, Moore offers a candid and theologically rich diagnosis of a movement he describes as simultaneously fragmented, bored, and longing for renewal. Drawing parallels to historical awakenings and moments of global upheaval, Moore challenges listeners to consider what faithful Christian witness looks like in a time of digital saturation, political idolatry, and ecclesial disillusionment. Together, they wrestle with how evangelical institutions can resist becoming co-opted by market forces or ideologies, and instead return to the soul of the gospel—Jesus himself. Episode Highlights “We simply want Jesus as revealed in scripture.” (Russell Moore) “The good news is so clouded with distorted noise.” (Mark Labberton) “You mistakenly think that the solution has to be at the same scale as the problem.” (Wendall Berry, cited by Russell Moore) “Every person has to have an act of willful excommunication.” (Nicholas Carr, cited by Russell Moore) “Christian Nationalism is like ‘Bizarro Evangelicalism' … i f you can get external conformity, then you have righteousness.” (Russell Moore) Karl Barth on Christian disillusionment during World War I: “We  we want to preach the gospel as though nothing has happened.” … “ He's saying the church is being co-opted and used by forces alien to it. And there have to be people who are free from that to actually appeal to the genuine gospel and to remind people that God is God.” About Russell Moore Russell Moore is Editor in Chief of Christianity Today and is the author of Losing Our Religion: An Altar Call for Evangelical America (Penguin Random House). The Wall Street Journal has called Moore “vigorous, cheerful, and fiercely articulate.” He was named in 2017 to Politico Magazine's list of top fifty influence-makers in Washington, and has been profiled by such publications as the New York Times, the Washington Post, TIME Magazine, **and the New Yorker. An ordained Baptist minister, Moore served previously as President of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission and, before that, as the chief academic officer and dean of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where he also taught theology and ethics. Moore was a Fellow at the University of Chicago's Institute of Politics and currently serves on the board of the Becket Law and as a Senior Fellow with the Trinity Forum in Washington, D.C. He also hosts the weekly podcast The Russell Moore Show and is co-host of Christianity Today's weekly news and analysis podcast, The Bulletin. Russell was President of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention from 2013 to 2021. Prior to that role, Moore served as provost and dean of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, where he also taught theology and ethics. A native Mississippian, he and his wife Maria are the parents of five sons. They live in Nashville, where he teaches the Bible regularly at their congregation, Immanuel Church. Show Notes Comparing Christianity Today and Fuller Theological Seminary Religious reconsiderations post-World War II “My grandfather was blown out of a tank by the Nazis in the Battle of the Bulge and came back. He went an unbeliever, came back really feeling his mortality and, and searching for answers. And ended up at a revival meeting where he came to know Christ.” A false choice presented to Christians: “You had this false choice being presented to Christians … you either go with an ever narrowing, ever quarrelsome sort of group of fundamentalists or you liberalize.” Billy Graham and Martin Luther King, Jr. The recent history of Evangelical Christianity A Movement in Crisis: What is the state of Evangelicalism in America? Revival preachers and entrepreneurialism: a religious, market-driven reality “Lifelessness and deadness” “ I can't think of a single church that has split over Christology. Most of the arguments have to do with politics and, and related sort of cultural issues because that's what people really care about and what they really think often is important.” Tumult of the digital economy Alienation, dehumanization: “We can simultaneously think of ourselves as gods and as sets of data and algorithms.” Speed of change and life Teaching ethics: a final exam question students have never thought about How to prepare people for ethical problems and real-life challenges Mental health crisis: “high rates of depression and anxiety driven by a piece of glass that everybody carries in his or her pocket that can connect that person with all of the information in the entire world.” 100 years since the invention and use of the microphone No microphones, but extraordinary voices “The dials are askew, because the sound that evangelicalism is evoking in so many quadrants is a sound that is hostile and grading and brash and arrogant.” “The good news is so clouded with distorted noise.” Secularization How Evangelicalism appeals to people: End Times Prophecy, Marriage and Family Values, and Shocking Attention-Grabbing “Real life takes on the characteristics of the internet.” Wendall Berry: “You mistakenly think that the solution has to be at the same scale as the problem.” Can you give us some hope? “Hope that is seen is not hope. Instead, there's suffering that creates endurance. Endurance that creates character, character that creates hope, and hope does not put to shame.” Ezekiel and the valley of the dry bones What is the work of Christianity Today right now? Redefining who is “us.” Who is the “we” of Evangelicalism? “We simply want Jesus as revealed in scripture.” 2 Corinthians 4: “The glory of God reflected in the face of Jesus Christ.” Karl Barth and disillusionment during World War I: “We  we want to preach the gospel as though nothing has happened.” … “ He's saying the church is being co-opted and used by forces alien to it. And there have to be people who are free from that to actually appeal to the genuine gospel and to remind people that God is God.” How to cultivate freedom “One of the major challenges to a freedom is loss of attention.” “I have to be free from the constant whirl—and what he meant at the time was the radio, you know, which is nothing compared to what we have—because my attention is necessary for me to be able to serve and to give.” “Kingdom of God is like yeast.” Waiting, attention, and a longer view of time “How do you then hold onto this freedom that we're describing in a way of connected disconnectedness or disconnected connectedness or something?” Nicholas Carr: “Every person has to have an act of willful excommunication.” Revelation and the Book of Daniel: “Seal all this up for now. … Don't worry about it.” Nebuchadnezzar demanding  that. Shadrach, Mishak, and Abednego bow down and worship the golden statue. Evangelical Pastors: Preaching the Bible versus advocating a political vision Galatians 1 and 2—Paul's not yielding to false teachers in order to preserve the Gospel New Apostolic Reformation Christian Nationalism: “Bizarro Evangelicalism … i f you can get external conformity, then you have righteousness.” “Blood mysticism” Jonathan Rauch's Cross Purposes Keeping guard up in conversations with disagreement “Simply asking for Christians to be who we say we are.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

David Emmanuel Goatley preaches on how, in every season, we are called to deeper intimacy with Jesus through reflecting on his suffering and resurrection. David Emmanuel Goatley is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair at Fuller Seminary. Recorded at Fuller's All-Seminary Chapel on April 2, 2025.  

“If a person is entrusted to care for a building and decides to tear it down, there's a moral imperative to disclose whether there are people inside. There are 20.6 million people and 566,000 children living inside PEPFAR.” PEPFAR is the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief. And as of March 25, 2025, its congressional reauthorization has expired. For more than two decades, its website states, “the U.S. government has invested over $110 billion in the global HIV/AIDS response, the largest commitment by any nation to address a single disease in history—saving 26 million lives, preventing millions of HIV infections, and accelerating progress toward controlling the global HIV/AIDS pandemic in more than 50 countries.” Now, some estimate that over 20 million people will lose access to antiretroviral drugs, which may result in up to 1,650,000 deaths over the coming year. In this episode, Mark Labberton speaks with Mindy Belz, an award-winning journalist and longtime war correspondent, to explore the urgent moral and humanitarian implications of PEPFAR's uncertain future. Drawing on Belz's deep reporting experience in conflict zones and her time covering global health efforts, their conversation traces the remarkable legacy of the U.S. government's investment in HIV/AIDS relief, the stakes of congressional inaction, and the broader questions this crisis raises about American moral leadership, Christian charity, and global responsibility. Together they discuss: Mindy Belz's background as a journalist and war correspondent The significance of PEPFAR in the global battle against HIV/AIDS The pivotal leadership role the U.S. government has played in supporting AIDS relief efforts for the past two decades The devastating impact that losing PEPFAR would have on human life around the world, particularly in Africa And, perspectives on charity, moral conscience, and faith in American Christianity Helpful Links mindybelz.com Mindy's Article about PEPFAR: “1,650,000: How killing a global program to fight HIV/AIDS kills”: “PEPFAR contracts ended under Trump mean 20 million people on treatment now face HIV disease again. Without more reinstatements that could lead to a death toll of 1.6 million in a year's time.” About PEPFAR, the “President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief”: Through PEPFAR, the U.S. government has invested over $110 billion in the global HIV/AIDS response, the largest commitment by any nation to address a single disease in history – saving 26 million lives, preventing millions of HIV infections, and accelerating progress toward controlling the global HIV/AIDS pandemic in more than 50 countries. From ThinkGlobalHealth: “PEPFAR Misses Reauthorization Deadline: What's Next for Global HIV Fight?” Mindy's book They Say We Are Infidels: On the Run from ISIS with Persecuted Christians in the Middle East Follow Mindy on X @mindybelz Follow Mindy on Substack: Globe Trot About Mindy Belz Mindy Belz is an award-winning American journalist. For over two decades, she has covered wars and victims of conflict in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Sudan and the Balkans. She recounts some of her experiences in a 2016 award-winning book, They Say We Are Infidels. Her work appears in The Wall Street Journal, Plough Quarterly, and other publications. The New York Times calls her “one of the bravest and best foreign correspondents in the country.” Mindy currently is editor of the 2024 Christianity Today Globe project. Her news roundup, Globe Trot, is read by thousands each week and available on Substack. She speaks internationally and has taught journalism courses in Uganda, India, Hungary, and the United States. She is the former senior editor at World Magazine. A mother of four and grandmother of three, Mindy was married for 40 years to Nat Belz, who died in 2023. She lives in North Carolina. Show Notes Mindy Belz: A Journalist in the Trenches Mindy Belz and her career at World Magazine Mindy's coverage of the AIDS pandemic in East Africa and the war in Sudan The rise of Islamic extremism, Al-Quaeda, and crossing the Tigris into Iraq Her early experiences in journalism and what drew her to war reporting How she came to report from the Middle East and other conflict zones The challenges Mindy faced as a woman journalist “We've all experienced some of the conflict in the world. We've all experienced some terrorism and violence … this is a part of life in a broken and fallen world, and so learning from women, from men, from children incredible resilience in the face of terrible breakdowns is that I just consider a real privilege of my work.” Working with a Sudanese NGO—finding starving people, barely surviving “For Americans, we always get to walk away. I'm really aware in whatever hard situation I'm in, there's little voice at the back of my brain that's saying, ‘Don't forget you get to go home.'” What is PEPFAR? “ President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief,” developed by George W. Bush in 2003 Trendsetting program to battle HIV/AIDS Anti-viral drug program to prevent the spread (but not cure) the disease “We still don't have a real cure for HIV.” “You have 20 million people who are currently taking antiretroviral drugs that are funded under PEPFAR and most of those people just suddenly could not have access to their medicine and, and that means that we are watching even now the disease grow.” “The Trump administration has basically shuttered the program and they have done so without the oversight of Congress.” Nicholas Kristof's NYT March 15 article estimates that 1.6 million people could die over the next year. Link: “Musk Said No One Has Died Since Aid Was Cut. That Isn't True.” “The scale of the devastation is mind-bending.” What can we do? “Congress is not exercising its oversight responsibilities right now.” “If a person is entrusted to care for a building and decides to tear it down, there's a moral imperative to disclose whether there are people inside. There are 20.6 million people and 566,000 children living inside PEPFAR.” What is the role of our government? “I've also seen PEPFAR working and working incredibly. I routinely and in lifesaving ways.” Understanding moral conscience “We are needing to call our nation not to a Christian identity, which I think is the, the false attempt of Christian nationalism, but to a moral identity. That people of faith, little faith, no faith, other faiths, can enter into and share. And I think some element of that has been operational in the United States for a very long time. And now all of that is being dismantled and being labeled, as you say, by a really cheap word like charity, as though there's no wider frame than simply compassionate sentimentality, as opposed to something that's really taking the moral realities of the world and all of their urgency seriously. And not pretending that we need to be (as we've sometimes tried to be as a nation) the healer of the nations, but to say that we should actually be a force for taking these issues with great national seriousness, and not just repudiating it because it's not inside the boundaries of our own country.” “Use the influence and the economic force of the United States to fund local programs.” “ We have the resources to go and make a difference in this situation. And by doing that we set an example for others to do it.” “We  have adopted an attitude of scarcity.” The impact and efficacy of antiretroviral drugs to improve the lives of people with HIV/AIDS—”To suddenly cut them off is an act of cruelty.” “This is a system, not just medication.” “If we're suddenly saving $5 billion a year, what is that going to be used for?” ”If these things are all happening by executive decision, and Congress does not have a meaningful role, then essentially the people are cut out of the conversation.” “People who become sicker with HIV will become more likely to have tuberculosis, more likely to be suffering from other diseases than side effects of the virus itself.” Where Is God in All of This? “It's a dangerous world. Go anyway.” “We have to trust that the hand of God is there and that it will meet us in the midst of those hard situations.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

"Listening is everything. Without listening, there's no music, no art, no understanding—just noise.” (Charlie Peacock, from the episode) Acclaimed musician, producer, podcaster, and author Charlie Peacock joins Mark Labberton to reflect on music, art, attention, listening, faith, and spirituality. From his groundbreaking work in pop music production (e.g., Amy Grant, Switchfoot, the Civil Wars), to his deep engagement with faith and mentorship, Charlie explores how attention shapes creativity, why making space for beauty is a spiritual discipline, and how a life of music can be an act of service. Through stories of artistic risk, collaboration, and calling, this conversation explores the rhythms of a flourishing life. In this episode, they discuss: Charlie's new memoir, Roots and Rhythm: A Life In Music The communal nature of making and producing music The unsung music heroes from Charlie's life Non-neutrality and the interdependence of all things Hearing and visualizing music The intersection of creativity, spirituality, and paying attention, How listening transforms both art and relationships, Life lessons from jazz, pop, and worship music production, And the role of both sound and silence in artistic and spiritual life. About Charlie Peacock Charlie Peacock is a six-time Grammy Award–winning musician and producer, having produced Amy Grant, Switchfoot, the Civil Wars, and many more artists. A three-time recipient of the Gospel Music Association's Producer of the Year Award, he's named by Billboard's Encyclopedia of Record Producers as one of the five hundred most important producers in popular music history. His latest book is Roots and Rhythm: A Life In Music, and you can listen to his podcast, Music & Meaning. For more information visit charliepeacock.com. Episode Highlights "If you're not paying attention, you're missing the song that's already being sung around you." "A mentor doesn't hand you a map; they help you learn how to navigate." "Faith and art are both about trust—trusting the unseen, the unfinished, and the uncertain." "The hardest and best lesson for any artist: keep showing up and doing the work." "Music isn't just a product—it's a means of connection, healing, and worship." Show Notes Charlie Peacock, Roots & Rhythm Music and community The unsung music heroes from Charlie's life Non-neutrality and the interdependence of all things Hearing and visualizing music Michael Polanyi tacit understandings Re-creation of the old into the dramatically new—e.g., Notre Dame Cathedral The joy of generational community Jazz: spirit, skill, and ability “That's what I love about jazz improvisation. There was nothing and then there was something. Over and over again. … When you have those people in a room making music … it's hard to go to sleep at night.” “I have been pursued by a loving Creator … God-haunted since I was a little boy.” “I wanted to know everything. … how, why, what, when … everything.” “Never once was there a moment when I was out of God's grip.” Charlie Peacock's Secret of Time: “God gives you time to be saved.” John Coltrane's spiritual journey “250 people a night…” “I took the F-word out of two songs, and stopped taking 10% from the bar tab.” Hans Rookmaaker Inklings Time in England and the Netherlands, including time at L'Abri (run by Francis and Edith Schaeffer) “An artist and a follower of Jesus, and how those two could be congruent …” “Our death is life to life. The kingdom has already begun. We have been living it. And we will continue to live it.” “Playing with the entire history of music in your brain.” The Civil Wars: “We re-presented hyper-dynamics. … A lot of people have never heard that before. … It invites you in and lets you sit back.” (e.g., pianissimo to forte) Over-compressed music. “That lean in to the music is a part of your participation. … I'm committed to this music.” “I produced music in the ‘80s. I know how to ruin a record. … Big hair and big snare. … But really it had to do with technology.” Music in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s Neil Postman: “To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” “When I use this tool I have to make sure it doesn't use me.” “My subtext is that this is a book about epistemology. … To say, ‘This is how I know what I know.' It came through God, people, and place.” A worker-bee in the music business “Like a house with a party going on” Vocation, epistemology, and how an artists become who they are Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“They're fighting their way through this crazy immigration system that is ineffective, illogical, and inhumane. … There's a wideness in God's mercy. Since when has anybody said mercy for some and not for all? … Fixing immigration is really different than blowing it up.  … This is not an impossible crisis to solve. … We need to not be divided by our political affiliations. As Christians, we stand with Christ, who critiques all human institutions.” (Alexia Salvatierra, from the episode) The immigration crisis on US borders reveals a deeper crisis of humanity—another example of democracy at a turning point. What should be the Christian response to the current immigration crisis? How can the individuals and small communities take effective action? And who are the real people most affected by immigration policy in the United States? In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes theologian, pastor, and activist Alexia Salvatierra. She shares stories from the front lines of immigration justice. Alexia Salvatierra is an ordained Lutheran pastor and a leading voice in faith-based social justice movements. She serves as assistant professor of integral mission and global transformation at Fuller Theological Seminary and has been a key organizer in immigrant advocacy for over four decades. She co-authored Faith-Rooted Organizing: Mobilizing the Church in Service to the World and works extensively with grassroots organizations to address the intersection of faith, justice, and policy. Together they discuss: Personal testimonies and policy insights based on stories of real people facing the immigration system in the United States The challenges immigrants face under an increasingly unforgiving system How faith communities can respond with faithful courage and productive grief, instead of outrage The global nature of the immigration, refugee, and foreign-aid crisis The width of God's mercy and the effectiveness of immigration and refugee public policy A call to action for Christians to become “gracious disrupters” and stand with the vulnerable Helpful Links and Resources World Relief – Christian organization supporting refugees Lutheran Social Services – Organization falsely accused of money laundering Show Notes Immigration policy and the church's response The impact of executive orders on deportation and asylum seekers Faith-based advocacy for immigrants The role of Latino churches in immigrant support How Christians can move from outrage to courageous action Immigration reform Faith-based activism ICE raids on churches Asylum seekers and deportation Christian response to immigration crisis Latino churches and advocacy Political fear versus Christian courage The role of the church in justice Broken immigration system Policy changes under different administrations Immigration Today: Stories and Case Studies An Assemblies of God pastor from Guatemala, facing deportation despite three qualifying cases for legal residency—South Los Angeles “ That's what we mean by a broken system, is there's all these little wrinkles in the system that don't work.” Detention at a deportation facility called Adelanto ”They're fighting their way through this crazy immigration system that is ineffective, illogical, and inhumane.” Asylum, ankle bracelets, and “legitimate fear” “ They said he was a criminal because he had entered without authorization twenty years before when he was a teenager.” ICE agents attempting to detain a man during a worship service ICE and “sensitive locations”—Is a church an ICE “sensitive location”? Hispanic Theological Education Association Latino Christian National Network “That arrest has  provoked intense fear. …  they're terrified to go to church.” The impact of anti-immigration policies on church attendance and spiritual care A desperate mother of a special-needs child preparing legal custody papers in case of deportation The economic and moral contradictions in mass deportation efforts “Cities that have municipal sanctuary laws are threatened with suit by the new administration.” The Global Immigration and Refugee Crisis “All around the world immigration is in crisis.” 1980 Refugee Act “All the countries who signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights have to take refugees.” The concept of “Refoulment”—”which means that you're sending someone back to die.” “Not only are all refugee programs stopped, but current refugees are not getting the support that they need.” “ Costa Rica is a five-million-person  country and they've taken two million refugees.” American Immigration During the Trump Administration Elon Musk saying “ that Lutheran Social Services was a money-laundering machine.” Current administration's policies as “ bold, unilateral, and so comprehensive and unnuanced” “If the Trump administration is successful at deporting ten million people, many of whom have been here over twenty years, thirty years, um, where will we find the labor that we need?” Policy and Legal Discussion The end of Deferred Deportation under the Trump and Biden administrations Executive orders eliminating prioritization of deportation The freezing of USAID and refugee support programs “All foreign aid has always been strategic. It's never not.” “Global warming refugees” “The current president of Venezuela loves gangs.” “Fixing immigration is really different than blowing it up. …  this is not an impossible crisis to solve.” The bipartisan immigration bill that Trump advised Republicans to block Historical immigration policies and their effectiveness “Policy does make a difference.” Objection to open borders: What about mercy for Americans? A false dichotomy. God's mercy is wide. “We have a number of believers in Congress who are acting out of fear right now and not out of faith.” Call to Action How faith communities can support immigrants “Immigrant churches are taking the brunt of this.” Why outrage doesn't help the process Ways to engage with legislators and advocate for reform The importance of standing with immigrant churches in this moment Supporting organizations like World Relief and Lutheran Social Services “The bulk of the people in the United States, the majority, have not had to grieve on this level. Not had to grieve with this intensity, with this constancy. Our spiritual muscles are weak—in terms of knowing how to grieve and keep going and trust God. ‘Though he slay me, I will worship him.'” “Encourage literally means ‘to get more courage.' You know, to give courage, to get courage. And so I just would want everybody to stop being outraged and start being courageous.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“If I'm actually seeing you and then I'm hearing you, then it doubles the thickness of that communication moment.” In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the full-bodied, empathetic nature of listening and the communication process. He reflects on good listening, the empathy it requires, and what it means to truly recognize and successfully understand each other. Listening and perceiving are bound up together in a fundamental way, offering us an opportunity to enter into another's experience, truly seeing and recognizing them and receiving who they are. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes “Listening is almost always seeing.” Full-bodied listening and how perception adds to our understanding of each other “If I'm actually seeing you and then I'm hearing you, then it doubles the thickness of that communication moment.” Examples of bad listening: “pinning words on the speaker.” Recognition for the speaker: “My listening reflects that I'm actually perceiving them.” The fun and joyful work of communication Total body experience of listening and perceiving is about empathy. Empathy and entering the speaker's world and experience The difference empathy makes “Empathy, even when you're wanting to give it doesn't make it automatic.  It often has to be something that emerges out of the communication experience itself.” Hearing, perception, and full-bodied communication “How we see and receive another person's being…” Achieving a communication breakthrough: “Oh, I see!” ”It is like amazing grace is playing in the background. And I want to say ‘I once was blind, but now I see' that's what it feels like a real revelatory discovery.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

This week on Here's What We Know, Gary sits down with Loreal and Natasha from Arukah Project—an organization dedicated to combating sex trafficking across California—to have a crucial conversation about the realities of this crisis. They uncover the hidden truths of sex trafficking, share real-life stories, and discuss how their organization is working to bring restoration and hope to survivors.Loreal and Natasha break down common misconceptions, reveal how traffickers exploit vulnerabilities, and emphasize the importance of education and awareness. This episode will not only open your eyes but also inspire you to be part of the solution.In this episode, you'll learn:The meaning of 'Arukah'—a Hebrew word for restoration to wholeness—and its significance in shaping their missionThe shocking reality of how sex trafficking occurs in plain sight.How traffickers manipulate personal and economic vulnerabilities to entrap victimsThe critical role of education in prevention and how communities can take actionSpecialized training programs that teach individuals how to identify trafficking signs both online and offlineWhy parental involvement is essential in protecting children and fostering safety conversationsThis episode is sponsored by: Bison Junk Removal (Effortless solution to your junk removal needs!) Habana Cuba (Be sure to use code "Gary20" to get 20% off your order!)Bio:Loreal Weitzel graduated with a BA in Psychology from the University of Santa Cruz, is a Certified Human Trafficking Case Manager in California, and has an MA in Intercultural Studies with a focus on Children at Risk from Fuller Seminary. She founded Arukah Project in 2019 with a passion to restore the lives of sex trafficking survivors from all over California. Natasha (last name withheld for privacy) is the Deputy Executive Director of the Arukah Project with over 20 years of experience in the field. She holds a bachelor's degree in criminal justice and is deeply committed to making a difference.Website: https://www.arukahproject.org/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/arukah.project/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ArukahProjectConnect with Gary: Gary's Website Follow Gary on Instagram Gary's Tiktok Gary's Facebook Watch the episodes on YouTube Advertise on the Podcast Thank you for listening. Let us know what you think about this episode. Leave us a review!

“‘To whom much is given, much is expected.' …  That is the core of our Christian belief.” “I hope that people who are both patriotic and Christian are not being painted with a broad brush.” (Condoleezza Rice, from this episode) In this episode, Condoleezza Rice joins Mark Labberton to discuss the state of US foreign and domestic policy in light of Christian moral convictions. Secretary Rice served as the 66th US Secretary of State under President George W. Bush, has been on the faculty of Stanford University since 1981, and is currently the director of the Hoover Institution. Together they discuss: The state of US foreign policy and international relations How to think about American involvement in global politics The importance of US foreign assistance American patriotism and Christian devotion And Condoleezza Rice's prayers for American leaders right now: discernment, judgment, compassion, and policy that reflects the dignity of all human beings. About Condoleezza Rice Condoleezza Rice is the Tad and Dianne Taube Director of the Hoover Institution and the Thomas and Barbara Stephenson Senior Fellow on Public Policy. She is the Denning Professor in Global Business and the Economy at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. In addition, she is a founding partner of Rice, Hadley, Gates & Manuel, LLC, an international strategic consulting firm. From January 2005 to January 2009, Rice served as the 66th Secretary of State of the United States, the second woman and first black woman to hold the post. Rice also served as President George W. Bush's Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs (National Security Advisor) from January 2001 to January 2005, the first woman to hold the position. Rice served as Stanford University's provost from 1993 to 1999, during which time she was the institution's chief budget and academic officer. As professor of political science, she has been on the Stanford faculty since 1981 and has won two of the university's highest teaching honors. From February 1989 through March 1991, Rice served on President George H.W. Bush's National Security Council staff. She served as director, then senior director, of Soviet and East European Affairs, as well as Special Assistant to the President for National Security. In 1986, while an International Affairs Fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, Rice also served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. For more information, visit her profile at the Hoover Institution. Show Notes The state of US international relations “ The beginning of any administration is a bit chaotic” “I continue to hope that we will find a way to help Ukraine so that Vladimir Putin doesn't benefit from the aggression that he committed.” “The United States will undoubtedly play a different role. … That is the outcome of what's been eighty years of post World War II American engagement. … And so we need to ask, what are our values? What are our interests? And I think we're going to, we're going to see a good, solid American role in foreign policy.” Is the world order in the process of receiving a shock treatment? “ We really do need to rebuild our defense industrial base.” USAID: “ I'm a great believer that foreign assistance is one of the important tools in our toolkit of foreign policy.” “ I actually am one who believes that the absorption of USAID into the State Department is the right answer.” On US foreign assistance “A lot of what we do is purely humanitarian, purely life saving. We should. Just do that. Some of what we do is also strategic. What countries do we help to develop to be less fragile so that they don't become hubs for terrorism? …  And sometimes our assistance is to stabilize places in the world so that we don't face a security problem down the road.” Developing infrastructure “Am I patriotic? Do I love my country? Am I a nationalist? Absolutely. Am I Christian? Yes. And so I hope that people who are both patriotic and Christian are not being painted with a broad crust.” “But if we think about what it means to be Christian, it means to care about every human being, because every human being is created in the image of the Lord, and therefore every human being has worth.” “One of the closing comments from President Bush was, ‘To whom much is given, much is expected. …  that is the core of our Christian belief.” What is  the state of the Christian influence in American politics and life? Emulating the early church in establishing orphanages and hospitals, “and  to be a voice on behalf of those who are dispossessed.” Religious Freedom “When I was secretary of state, not because I was Christian, but because I was secretary of state, I would take a list of religious objectors with me to countries like China.” “The evangelical church has been very involved in human trafficking issues. We actually do have a problem of modern slavery.” “The church has a lot of potential to be a really good force in the world.” Condoleeza Rice's most passionate prayers for the nation and the world right now “My most passionate prayer is that our leaders would have—and I actually pray this prayer— that they would have judgment and discernment, that they would have compassion, that they would lead from a position of knowing how much America has, and that they would understand that our role in the world derives from our universal belief in human freedom and that it is the only way that human beings have the dignity that they should have as having been created by God.” “I think one of the reasons we've had a bit of a backlash against some foreign assistance is that people wonder, ‘Well, are you thinking about Americans in the same way?'” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“ When I watch people who are what I think of as expert communicators, they are people who have this quality that they hear well, they listen deeply, and they know what kind of communication to give in return that actually seals that that was fully received.” (Mark Labberton, from this episode) Why is it so hard to communicate? To accomplish the simple task of delivering and receiving information? In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton suggests that real and successful communication is a miracle, and an infrequent one at that. Our failure to communicate regularly demonstrates just how far we are from adequately listening to one another. Ultimately, if we want to seek the miracle of communication, we need to take the responsibility to "close the loop" and do the work of hearing, listening, and acknowledging receipt. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes Endless communication meetings talking about the failure of our communication News media's failure to communicate Marital failures to communicate Parent-child failures to communication Over-communicating with too much information Undoing miscommunication “Communication is a miracle and not a frequent one.” Why is it so hard to communicate? “ In many ways, the stakes are against us when we're really trying to communicate.” Ears, eyes, space, time, sounds, lighting How far we are from adequately listening to one another Acknowledging receipt of a message “The world is pushy. Culture is pushy.” Clarity of mind and heart ”When I watch people who are what I think of as expert communicators, they are people who have this quality that they hear well, they listen deeply, and they know what kind of communication to give in return that actually seals that that was fully received.” The importance of closing the communication loop “If I'm seeking the miracle of communication, then I have to live into the responsibility of closing the loop of communication and not just being a passive recipient of what it is that's been said.” Failure to close the loop is what allows us to measuring the infrequency of true, successful communication. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

This is a turbulent time for American democracy. Years, perhaps decades, of social change is manifesting in the form of distrust, violence, chaos, fear, loneliness, and despair. But Conversing, along with Comment magazine, is about hope, healing, and hospitality. For this special 200th episode of Conversing, Mark Labberton invites Anne Snyder (Editor-in-Chief, Comment magazine) for a close reading and discussion of the 2025 Comment Manifesto, a hopeful new document offering a vision of Christian Humanism for this era. Together they discuss: The meaning and intent behind a new Comment magazine Manifesto for Christian humanism The Incarnation of Christ for what it means to be human Hospitality in an era of exclusion Healthy institutions and the importance of communal agency Individualism vs communitarianism Learning to perceive the world in fresh, surprising ways About the Comment Manifesto To read the Manifesto in its entirety, visit comment.org/manifesto/, or scroll below. To watch a reading of selections from the Comment Manifesto, click here. About Anne Snyder Anne Snyder is the Editor-in-Chief of Comment magazine, which is a core publication of Cardus, a think tank devoted to renewing North American social architecture, rooted in two thousand years of Christian social thought. Visit https://comment.org/ for more information. For years, Anne has been engaged in concerns for the social architecture of the world. That is, the way that our practices of social engagement, life, conversation, discussion, debate, and difference can all be held in the right kind of ways for the sake of the thriving of people, individuals, communities, and our nation at large. Anne also oversees our Comment's partner project, Breaking Ground, and is the host of The Whole Person Revolution podcast and co-editor of Breaking Ground: Charting Our Future in a Pandemic Year (2022). Show Notes Giving thanks for 200 episodes of Conversing! 2000 years of Christian thought to the public square James K.A. Smith, the former editor of Comment Magazine Seeking a positive moral vision A turbulent moment for democracy MANIFESTO SECTION 1 “We are Christian humanists…” What it means to be human in our age—our infinite dignity, relationship to the earth, and woundedness The significance of Jesus Christ for what it means to be human What the Incarnation of Christ means for our world “So many people we know and love and respect feel ecclesially homeless, obviously politically homeless.” MANIFESTO SECTION 2 “We believe it's time to build…” Agency Called to a co-creative project Productive and constructive “Contributing the true and good and beautiful in a messy world.” MANIFESTO SECTION 3 “We believe in institutions…” Collective, common, and communal Institutions, as part of the social architecture of our world, can be extraordinarily positive. “I always get asked, ‘Why do you believe in institutions? Why? You don't need to! They're gone! They're dead!'” “Healthy institutions are channels within which you can actually realize your sense of agency in a way that might be more moving than you ever would have imagined just by yourself.” Yuval Levin's take on community (paraphrased): “All the tumult we're experiencing, we're just having a big fight about what kinds of what community means.” Polarization MAGA as a kind of community “I consider myself a bit of a communitarian.” Christian humanism throughout history always has four projects connected to it: Theology, character formation, political economy, and aesthetic. MANIFESTO SECTION 4 “We believe in the transformative power of encounter—encountering reality, encountering those unlike us.” Addressing the fractured social fabric and isolation of this age Encounter and trust Hospitality— ”taking one another's being and doing in the world seriously enough” Enter the room listening MANIFESTO SECTION 5 “We believe Christianity is perpetually on the move. There is no sacred capital.” “This is our most aggressive claim.” Distinguishing Comment from peer publications such as First Things “All cultures are fallen, and we're part of another kingdom.” Galatians 5 and the Fruit of the Spirit Civilizational Christianity The smallness of “faith, family, flag” “So much of my Christian identity has been rewritten by experiences of Christian faith that are completely outside the, the social reality that is my fundamental location.” ”When Christianity seems to be running the dangerous risk of being captured, captured by a certain kind of ideological political social frame that feels as though it's really making itself primary simply by its Napoleonic capacity for self-crowning, that is a very, very dangerous thing.” MANIFESTO SECTION 6 “We believe there are different ways of knowing—that the thinker and the practitioner have equally valuable wisdoms worth airing, that relationship and context matter for the ways in which we perceive reality, that the child with Down syndrome perceives truths that a Nobel Prize winner cannot, and that there is a need for those who inhabit these myriad ways to share space and learn how to pursue understanding—perhaps even revelation—together.” Perceiving the world differently Down syndrome and the expression of a different kind of knowing or wisdom Full circle with the first principle of the imago Dei Functioning out of either confidence, uncertainty, or anxiety Mark Labberton's friend Dustin (R.I.P), who had cerebral palsy Fatigue, trying to get our bearings Looking for moral and eschatological coherence Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary. The 6 Primary Sections of the 2025 Comment Manifesto To read the Manifesto in its entirety, visit comment.org/manifesto/. We are Christian humanists, those who believe that Jesus Christ—God become man—is the ultimate measure of what it means to be human. We believe that every human being is created in the image of God, whole persons who are at once fallen yet gloriously endowed, finite and dependent, yet deserving of infinite dignity. We seek to stay true both to the wonder and to the woundedness of life this side of the veil, even as our eschatology floods us with hope: Jesus has walked with us, died, risen, and ascended, and he will come again to make all things new. We believe it's a time to build, that the creative imagination and the Christian imagination are mysteriously linked. We want to begin with the Yes in Christ, not our own noes. While there is an important role for criticism baptized in a study of what is true, good, and beautiful, it is a means to an end—the basis for wise repair and imagination, not the justification for destruction or erasure. We are committed to keeping orthodoxy and orthopraxy married, taking seriously our job to translate between them. We believe in institutions: government, guilds, families, schools, universities, the church. We recognize that in our age of individualism, institutions are often painted as the enemy. We try to change that, seeking to shape the character of today's most formative institutions while exploring what kind of reimagined social architecture might compel the next generation's trust. We believe in the transformative power of encounter—encountering reality, encountering those unlike us. Loving enemies is bedrock for Comment, hospitality core. We are champions of the difficult room. We believe in the deeper truths that can be discovered when different life experiences and distinct sources of wisdom are gathered around one table. We intentionally publish arguments with which we disagree, including those who don't hail Christ as Lord, not for the sake of pluralism without conviction, but because Christians have always better understood the contours and depths of their faith when crystallized through exchanges with strangers turned friends. We believe Christianity is perpetually on the move. There is no sacred capital. While the audience we serve is navigating a North American context, we serve this audience from an understanding that Christianity is an intercultural, polyglot religion. At a time of rising religious ethno-nationalism, we insist that no culture can claim to represent the true form of Christianity, and we actively seek for our authors and partners to reflect the global reality of the church. We believe there are different ways of knowing—that the thinker and the practitioner have equally valuable wisdoms worth airing, that relationship and context matter for the ways in which we perceive reality, that the child with Down syndrome perceives truths that a Nobel Prize winner cannot, and that there is a need for those who inhabit these myriad ways to share space and learn how to pursue understanding—perhaps even revelation—together. ... Our theory of change takes its cues from the garden, less the machine. We are personalists, not ideologues. We follow the logic of Jesus's mustard seed, of yeast transforming a whole pile of dough, of the principle of contagiousness and change happening over generations. We believe in the value of slow thought. We are skeptical of the language of scale in growing spiritual goods. While we wish to be savvy in unmasking the either/or reactivity of our age and will always call out dehumanizing trendlines, we are fundamentally animated by the creative impulse, by a philosophy of natality expressed through hospitality. This feels especially important in this time between eras when no one knows what's next, and we need one another to recalibrate, to reflect, and to shape a hopeful future.

Hey, Sister-friend

”I grew up thinking that Christianity was basically cruel and hypocritical.” “The core teachings of Jesus align very well with the core teachings of James Madison.” “That's why we need Christianity. It's not because we don't have reason to fear. It's because we do.” —Jonathan Rauch, from the episode We're at a crossroads, where Christianity and secularism in America are both operating at cross-purposes, and both need a critical reassessment of their role in democratic public life. In his new book, Jonathan Rauch “reckons candidly with both the shortcomings of secularism and the corrosion of Christianity.” He “addresses secular Americans who think Christianity can be abandoned, and Christian Americans who blame secular culture for their grievances.” Jonathan Rauch is senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth and his latest book (under discussion in this episode),  Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy. Follow him on X @jon_rauch. He is also a celebrated essayist, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and a recipient of the 2005 National Magazine Award, the magazine industry's equivalent of the Pulitzer Prize. In this episode Mark Labberton and Jonathan Rauch discuss: Republican virtue What Jesus and James Madison have in common The political idolatry of secularism The differences between the thin church, sharp church, and thick church The political orientation of the church in exile Tyrannical fear The Morman church's example of civic theology “of patience, negotiation, and mutual accommodation” The promise of power in exchange for loyalty About Jonathan Rauch Jonathan Rauch is senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth and his latest book (under discussion in this episode),  Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy. Follow him on X @jon_rauch. Show Notes Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth Reasonable, civic mindedness “Graciousness toward a faith you don't share.” “Of course I knew I was Jewish. I also knew that the idea of God seemed silly to me. I just never, never could believe it.” The Rev. Dr. Mark McIntosh 2003 Atlantic article: “The dumbest thing I ever wrote” celebrating secularism in America (”Let It Be,” The Atlantic, May 2003) “ It turned out that when Christianity started to fail, people started looking for substitutes, because they were looking for a source of identity and values and transcendent meaning.” Political idolatry of secularism “A major reason the country is becoming ungovernable is because of Christianity's crisis. We can no longer separate the two, and that's why I, a very secular person, am writing a book about Christianity.” “Moving away from the teachings of Jesus…” “The core teachings of Jesus align very well with the core teachings of James Madison.” Mark's description of his father: “ My dad used to save certain neck veins for the discussion of religion because he felt like it was something that should be avoided, at that time, at all costs, particularly its most zealous kind. And his primary critique was that what religious people do is that they take great things and make them small. …   What shocked me when I became a Christian was this discovery that Jesus and my dad had this same theme in common, that Jesus often objected to the small making of various religious authorities of his day.” “God's capacious grace, creativity, purpose, and love” Will the church live in its identity as followers of Jesus? “Christianity is a load-bearing wall in our liberal democracy.” “Republican virtues” (not the party): lawful, truthful, civic education, tolerant, pluralistic Christianity's role in upholding the unprecedented religious freedom “When Christians begin demanding things that are inconsistent with those core values, that makes everything else in the country harder.” “The thin church is a church that blends into the surrounding culture and it becomes diluted.” “The sharp church is …  where the church takes on the political colorations of the surrounding environment, aligns itself with a political party.” Divisive and polarizing “The third is the thick church. And there, the challenge is that you want a church to be counter cultural. You want it to have a strong sense of its own values. Otherwise, it's just not doing the work. So it needs to ask a lot of its followers. It needs to give a lot back in exchange. That's what sociologists mean by, by thick communities and groups. At the same time, it needs to be reasonably well aligned with our constitution and our liberal democratic values.” Church of fear Fear of demographic decline Cultural fear and losing the country to the woke Left Fear of emasculation Plain old political fear: “Our side needs to win.” Fear as a major theme of the Bible Fear of God as “the beginning of wisdom” “A communion of unlike people. … A workshop in which the character of God … is meant to be learned.” Immaturity and lack of wisdom in the church “The chief defense of the faith in the world that Jesus died and rose is that unlike people find communion with one another in a union that only Jesus Christ's death and resurrection could actually accomplish.” “Tyrannical fear”—a drive for dominance “Fear is part of the human condition. Yet what's so countercultural about Christianity, is its teaching that you can't be governed by that fear. You can't let it run your life and go around in a state of panic. And that Jesus Christ himself had lots to be fearful of, as we know from the end that he came to, and yet comported himself in this calm and dignified way, did not let fear triumph over him. That's why we need Christianity. It's not because we don't have reason to fear. It's because we do.” “Fear casts out love.” Trump administration['s] … demonstration of a capacity to have literally no compassion, no empathy.” The paradigm of Exodus versus the paradigm of exile Isaiah 58: “ Now as strangers in a strange land in Babylon, I'm going to ask you: Who are you now? Who do you trust now? Who are you going to put the full weight of your life on now?” “Exilic Church” “ Christianity is not about owning the country or winning in politics.” “It can't be a coincidence that at a moment when (at least) white Protestantism in the United States is obsessed with political influence and has mortgaged itself to the least Christlike figure possibly in American political history (in any case, right up there) that its numbers are shrinking catastrophically.” “The irony of the cross always is this self emptying power.” [Trump] is saying, “I will give you power, and in exchange, you will give me unquestioning loyalty.” Comparing Trump's transaction (at Dordt University in Iowa) “If you vote for me, you will have power” with the temptation of Christ in the desert: “All of this will be yours if you bow down to me.” Transactional relationship with power The Mormon church's “ civic theology … of patience, negotiation, and mutual accommodation” Jesus: “Don't be afraid, imitate Jesus, and forgive each other.” Madisonian liberalism: “Don't panic if you lose an election, protect minorities and the dignity of every individual, and don't seek retribution if you win, share the country.” “When Gandhi was asked what he thought of Western civilization, he said, ‘It would be a good idea.'” Black church and MLK Jr.—”emphasis on Reverend” “You accept the stripes and the crown of thorns. You turn the other cheek.” Profoundly counterintuitive countercultural example Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.