Podcasts about fuller seminary

“Migration is grace,” says UCLA professor Robert Chao Romero, author of Brown Church: Five Centuries of Latina/o Social Justice, Theology, and Identity. In this episode, he joins Mark Labberton to discuss the immigration crisis through stories from Southern California, theology of migration, and the challenge of Christian nationalism for the American response to the immigration crisis we face. Romero narrates heartbreaking accounts of ICE raids, racial profiling, and dehumanization, while also offering hope rooted in scripture and the early church. He points out the “Xenodochias” of the ancient and medieval church that cared for migrants. And he shows how biblical narratives—from Abraham to Jesus—reveal God's mercy in migration. Romero calls Christians to see the image of God in migrants, resist the “Latino threat narrative,” and reclaim the church's historic role in welcoming the stranger. Episode Highlights “Migration is grace. … You wouldn't have a Bible without migration.” “Jesus lived and died as an outsider in solidarity with all outsiders, and he rose to new life among outsiders.” “The gospel is an outward pushing invitation… it is the pushing out actually into the far and remote places of suffering in need.” “This level of targeting of the Latino community has not happened since 1954 and Operation Wetback.” “We think that crossing the US border is like crossing the Jordan into the promised land, and we're baptized into the Yankee Doodle song.” Helpful Links and Resources Brown Church by Robert Chao Romero UCLA César E. Chávez Department of Chicana/o and Central American Studies Fuller Seminary's Centro Latino CLUE: Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice World Relief About Robert Chao Romero Robert Chao Romero is an associate professor in the UCLA César E. Chávez Department of Chicana/o and Central American Studies and in the Asian American Studies Department. With a background in law and history, his research and teaching explore the intersections of race, immigration, faith, and justice. He is the author of Brown Church: Five Centuries of Latina/o Social Justice, Theology, and Identity (IVP Academic), which chronicles the long history of Latino Christian social justice movements. Romero is also an ordained pastor, active in local church ministry and theological reflection on immigration, Christian nationalism, and the global church. Show Notes Immigration Crisis and ICE Raids Student testimonies of fear and trauma at UCLA during immigration crackdowns Stories of ICE targeting bus stops, car washes, and Home Depots in Southern California Latino citizens, veterans, and even high school students detained despite legal status A man fleeing ICE was killed in traffic, sparking vigils and protests Historical Parallels and Christian Nationalism Comparison to Operation Wetback of 1954, when over one million were deported Escalating racial profiling, reinforced by Supreme Court decisions “Latino Threat Narrative” portrays Latinos as criminals and unwilling to assimilate Christian nationalism merges citizenship and faith, echoing “manifest destiny” Theology of Migration and Outsiders Migration as grace: God intervenes with compassion in nearly every biblical migration story “We live alongside the world. We don't belong to the world.” “ Jesus lived and died as an outsider in solidarity with all outsiders, and he rose to new life among outsiders.” (Jorge Lara-Braud) Jesus as an asylum seeker in Egypt; Ruth and Joseph as biblical migrants Early church created “xenodochias”—ancient and medieval social service centers for immigrants and the poor Outsider theology: Christians as strangers and aliens, called to care for outsiders “Jesus lived and died as an outsider in solidarity with all outsiders.” Policy Challenges and Misconceptions Millions of mixed-status households trapped by the “10-year bar” in immigration law Asylum seekers legally present cases at the border under U.S. law Refugees undergo extensive vetting, often over decades Common myths about immigrants as “illegal” are contradicted by law and history Faith, Empathy, and the Church Empathy as central to Christian response, counter to narratives of fear and scarcity Latino pastors passing on both the gospel and nationalism from missionary influence The church historically provided refugee care before the UN Refugee Agency existed Worship with immigrant congregations as a source of hope and resilience Orthodox theology: worship joins heaven and earth, every tribe and nation before the Lamb Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

271. Ways to Engage with Youth, Teens, and Gen Z in Church and at Home with Dr. Kara Powell   *Transcription Below*   1 Thessalonians 2:8 NIV "so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well."   Kara Powell, PhD, is the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Theological Seminary, the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, and the founder of the TENx10 Collaboration. Named by Christianity Today as one of "50 Women to Watch," Kara serves as a youth and family strategist for Orange, and she also speaks regularly at national parenting and leadership conferences. Kara has authored or coauthored numerous books, including Faith Beyond Youth Group, 3 Big Questions That Shape Your Future, 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, Growing With, Growing Young, The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family, and the entire Sticky Faith series.   Kara and her husband, Dave, are regularly inspired by the learning and laughter that come from their three young adult children.   Questions and Topics We Cover: What insights do you have to share on Gen-Z? When it comes to navigating intergenerational tensions, how can we practically turn our differences into superpowers and unite together? In your most recent book, entitled, Future-Focused Church, you begin with writing that the brightest days of the church are still ahead. What led you to that realization?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: 127 Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw 2 God-Honoring Relationship Between a Mother-in-Law and Daughter-in-Law with Author of The Mother-in-Law Dance, Annie Chapman   Stories Sampler from The Savvy Sauce Stories Series: 233 Stories Series: Surprises from God with Tiffany Noel 235 Stories Series: Ever-Present Help in Trouble with Kent Heimer 242 Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel 245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow 246 Stories Series: Experiencing God's Tangible Love with Jen Moore   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 2:13) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org.    I am so honored to introduce my guest for today, Dr. Kara Powell. She is the Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary and the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute. She's also founder of the 10x10 Collaboration and named by today as one of 50 women to watch. She is also extremely humble and insightful as she's going to discuss how we can leverage the power of stories and questions in our relationships at church and in our family and in beyond, and this is to model the life of Jesus. Make sure you also stay tuned in through the end because she's going to share a plethora of conversations and questions specifically to ask when we're engaging in conversation with young people, whether that's our own children and teens or our grandchildren or people in the community or our churches. It's some questions that you don't want to miss. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kara.   Dr. Kara Powell: (2:07 - 2:09) Oh, it's so good to be with you and your audience, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (2:09 - 2:13) Well, I'd love for you just to first give us a snapshot of your current life and share what's led you to the work that you get to do today.   Dr. Kara Powell: (2:14 - 4:06) Yeah, absolutely. So, let's see. I'll start with family. Dave and I have been married for I think 27-ish years, and we have three kids who are 24, 22, and 19.   Our youngest is a college freshman, and so we're technically empty nesters, but I actually like the term open nesters better because our kids come back, which we love. They come back in the summers and sometimes after college. And we actually, since I live in Pasadena, California, which had the fires in January, we actually have another 22-year-old young woman living with us, which we love.   So, we love having my husband, Dave, and I love having young people around, whether it's our own three kids or the young woman who's living with us. And I'm also a faculty member at Fuller Seminary, and while I certainly teach periodically, my main roles at Fuller actually have to do with leadership beyond Fuller. I'm the chief of leadership formation at Fuller, so I oversee all of Fuller's non-degree offerings, and then I'm the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, which is a research center that studies the faith of adolescents.   And I love that question, what got me to the work that I do today? Well, God would be the answer to that, but I was a long-term youth pastor here in Southern California at two different churches, loved teenagers, and Fuller was getting ready to start a new research center that was going to listen to the needs of parents and leaders, and then do research to answer those needs. And that really intrigued me, because I love young people, and I love research, and I love real-life ministry and family.   And so, I thought, well, I would love to hear more about that center, and I've been at Fuller now for over 20 years.   Laura Dugger: (4:07 - 4:17) Wow, that's incredible. And quick side note, I'm just so sorry for everything that you all endured in January with all the fires.   Dr. Kara Powell: (4:17 - 4:39) Yeah, it's heartbreaking, and in some ways, in many ways, devastating. And I'm grateful for how God is working through churches and working through God's people. So, there's all sorts of bright spots in the midst of the pain.   But yes, please pray that churches and God's people would be salt and light, because it's going to be a few years of rebuilding.   Laura Dugger: (440 - 4:43) Yes, Lord Jesus, may that be true. Amen.   Dr. Kara Powell: (4:43 - 4:44) Yeah, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (4:45 - 5:17) And I know with your background, you've studied practical theology, and you also have this broad knowledge of psychology. But some churches haven't studied psychology as much, and so I think that typically leads to less of an appreciation for it. But my fear is that they may miss out if they completely ignore it.   So, will you share some of the benefits that you've seen that come from applying God's truth from any of theologies?   Dr. Kara Powell: (5:17 - 8:14) Yeah, yeah. Well, at Fuller Seminary, we have two schools. One is our School of Mission and Theology, which I'm an alum of and a faculty member in.   And the other is our School of Psychology. And so, Laura, you asked a question that's right at the heart of what we love about training leaders and therapists. And in fact, my favorite statue at Fuller, the title of it is Planting the Cross in the Heart of Psychology.   And that's exactly what we believe. So, you know, God's made us as holistic people. And I love thinking both about how is our theology driving us as well as our psychology.   And you know, one way to think about our psychology, a colleague of mine at Fuller talks about people's losses and longings. And that phrase has been so helpful for me. Like, what are people's losses and longings?   And how is that connected with how they're responding? So, so much of our work at the Fuller Youth Institute relates to young people. And I remember coaching a senior pastor who was experiencing a lot of resistance to prioritizing young people from senior adults.   And what the senior pastor realized is, of course, I shouldn't say of course, but in this particular church, when he was saying we need to prioritize young people, those over 60 felt like, wait, that means I'm not going to be a priority. People who are older often already feel that here in US culture. And so, no wonder that was intimidating, that was threatening, that felt like a loss to those senior adults.   And so, I love what the senior pastor ended up doing is he implemented one of our principles of change that we recommend, which is people support what they create. And so, if you want to build ownership, then how can you involve as many people as possible in creating whatever you're trying to develop? And so, the senior pastor went to the senior adults and apologized for sending a message that, you know, made them feel like they were not going to be priority.   And instead, he said, how can we make this church a church that your grandkids would love to be part of? And that connected with those, you know, post 60, most of whom were grandparents, whether their grandkids live locally, or, you know, globally, they wanted their church to be a place where their grandkids and other young people would connect. And so, you know, he turned senior adults feeling like they were peripheral, to really feeling like they were partners in what God was doing in the church.   And so, yes, I would invite us all to think about what are people's losses and longings? And how is that contributing to how they're responding to whatever we're all experiencing?   Laura Dugger: (8:15 - 10:20) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time?   Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life. From premarital to parenting to the empty nest phase, there is an opportunity for you. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even when it seems things are going smoothly, so that they're stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.   These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well fed, well nurtured and well cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication and more.   I've stayed on Winshape before and I can attest to their generosity, food and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, windshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org/S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Well, Kara, you've also done so much research on young people and just in general, I'd love to hear what insights do you have on Gen Z?   Dr. Kara Powell: (10:20 - 14:16) Yeah, yeah. Well, we at the Fuller Youth Institute, we have spent a lot of time studying and doing research on Gen Z, which tends to be those who are 14, 15 and up. Our very youngest teenagers are all actually now Gen Alpha, but we'll talk about Gen Z.   And as we've looked at the research, we've landed on three words which we think well describe Gen Z. First, they are anxious. And if we look at young people today, they do have unprecedented levels of mental health challenges, anxiety, depression, stress, even suicidal thoughts.   And so, we do a lot of training to help parents and leaders understand mental health and how they can be a safe space and get young people the help they need. So, this is an anxious generation. This is an adaptive generation.   This generation is so creative and entrepreneurial and visionary. You know, while there's a lot of downsides to technology, technology also helps young people know more about what's wrong in the world and sometimes take steps to make what is wrong right and restore God's justice to our world. And so, this is an adaptive and creative generation.   And then in addition to being anxious and adaptive, this is a diverse generation. Here in the U.S., we crossed a line in 2020. In the midst of everything else that happened in 2020, we crossed a line where now 50% of those under 18 are young people of color.   So, for your audience to just keep that in mind that 50% of those under 18 are white and 50% are young people of color and that percentage of young people of color is likely going to continue to grow. So, I would say those are three key attributes to this generation. And then, you know, when it comes to what this generation is experiencing spiritually, I really appreciate what my friend and fellow podcaster Carey Nieuwhof has described with young people that they are both in revival and retreat.   And, you know, we see data for both. There's so much that's encouraging about how young people are responding to Jesus. They're open to Jesus.   We're seeing this especially on college campuses. They're responding in mass on college campuses in some really beautiful ways. Both InterVarsity and Crew are seeing that.   But then this generation is also in some ways distancing themselves from the institutional church. Springtide Research Institute did some study of 13- to 25-year-olds and found that 13- to 25-year-olds in the U.S. are almost three times as likely to say they've been hurt by organized religion as trust organized religion. So, our 13- to 25-year-olds are distrustful, a little cynical about institutional religion.   And so, we have our work cut out for us to build trust back. And let me just say, sadly, we have earned young people's lack of trust by the way that by our moral failures, by the way that we have not been as loving as Jesus wants us to be and as young people want us to be. And so, the good news is the way that we re-earn trust with young people is by little acts of kindness and consistency.   So, anybody listening can rebuild trust with a young person. The research on trust shows it's not about heroic acts. It's about sending a text and saying, hey, I'm praying for you.   It's about remembering a young person's name at church. It's about showing up at a young person's soccer game. So, in the midst of this generation and being both revival and retreat, there are practical steps that any adult can take.   Laura Dugger: (14:17 - 14:36) Wow, that's so good. You've got ideas now coming to me for how to pour into even the youth group. This is probably a very random idea, but how great would it be to have a Google calendar of all of their events and then whoever in the church is available to go support? That would just be a practical way.   Dr. Kara Powell: (14:36 - 15:45) Okay, so, Laura, you have just named actually one of my favorite ideas that a church that is here in Los Angeles is doing. They created a Google calendar and volunteers as well as parents can add information. But then what this church did, they started with a Google calendar and then it's a church of about 300 people.   And so, they have now started every Sunday morning. They have a slide with what's happening in young people's lives for the next week. So-and-so is in a play.   So-and-so has a basketball game. So-and-so has a Boy Scout activity. And so, adults in the church, often senior adults who have some extra time, are showing up at kids' events.   Plus, every week they're prioritizing young people. So, when you're a young person in that church and every week there's a slide about you and your friends and what's happening, that says something to the young people sitting there. So, yeah, you're-I actually love that idea.   And especially for smaller churches, I think that's one of the big advantages of smaller churches is we can be more intimate and caring. So, yes, let's please do that.   Laura Dugger: (15:46 - 16:00) Oh, that's so good. I love hearing how that played out. And now I'm also curious because you mentioned it's Gen Alpha behind.   Do you have any insight onto them as well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (16:00 - 16:27) Well, you're going to have to have me back because we are just-we received a grant from the Lilly Endowment, who's funded much of our research to study Gen Alpha. And they're just getting old enough that we really can, quite honestly. And so, like literally this week we are working on survey questions for Gen Alpha.   And we'll have more in the next year about what's similar between Gen Z and Gen Alpha, as well as what's different. So, I'd rather wait and save that for later.   Laura Dugger: (16:28 - 16:34) That sounds great. I'm especially interested in that generation. That is all four of our daughters would fall within that. So, I can't wait to hear your findings.   Dr. Kara Powell: (16:34 - 16:36) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (16:38 - 17:15) And I think it's also bringing up, I'm going to link to a previous episode, Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw, because I don't know if you feel this same way. I think millennials especially got pegged as the generational bias put on them was actually confused with their life stage. And Hayden's the one who wrote about that and drew that to our attention.   So, that's helpful to sift out as we're thinking of young people too, because sometimes older generations can look down on younger generations and see some of the shortcomings. Do you see that as well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (17:16 - 18:55) Oh, for sure. For sure. I think we compare young people to who we are now instead of remembering our 13 and 19 and 25 year old self.   And so, I mean, that's one of our biggest pieces of advice when it comes to young people is instead of judging them, how do we journey with them? How do we really empathize with what they're experiencing? And when we are tempted to judge young people, let's just start at, well, let's just stop and ask ourselves, would we want to be a young person today?   It's so very challenging to be a young person today. I mean, mental health alone, like if I think about my tendency to, as a teenager myself, to compare myself with others, to be worried that I was left out. I mean, if there was a cell phone that showed me everything my friends were doing without me, and I'm stuck at home, like no wonder that young people feel more anxious.   I think I would really be struggling with anxiety if I was a teenager now. I mean, honestly, even at my age, I don't check social media on Friday night or Saturday night, because I might be, Dave and I might be having leftovers and either working or watching a movie on Netflix. And I go on social media and my friends are out with their husbands and having this phenomenal time.   And at my age, that makes me feel insecure, let alone imagine being a 13 or 18- or 22-year-old and navigating that. So, so yes, I think how can we empathize instead of finger point?   Laura Dugger: (18:56 - 19:12) Oh, and you write about how to navigate intergenerational tensions. How can we practically turn our differences into superpowers and unite together? And I guess, especially in the church?   Dr. Kara Powell: (19:12 - 22:39) Yeah, yeah, great question. So, one of our books is called Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager. And we studied young people to try to understand the deep questions driving them.   And we landed on three. Identity, who am I? Belonging, where do I fit? And purpose, what difference can I make?   Identity, belonging and purpose. And those are that's such a helpful framework to understand young people and to empathize with them.   First off, I would say all of us are wrestling with identity, belonging and purpose. And when I feel emotional heat about an issue, if I feel insecure about something, it's usually because it's pricking at my identity, belonging or purpose. And so, that helps us realize that we navigate those questions, too.   But then also for the we who are parents, stepparents, grandparents, mentors of young people, you know, if a young person we care about is doing something that feels a little odd, a little askew, a little bit, that's not like them. If we can take a step back and ask, OK, what are they wrestling with? Is it identity?   Is it belonging? Is it purpose? That helps us empathize and know how to either ask a better question or, you know, give a little bit of hope rooted in whether that's rooted in scripture or in our own experience.   And so, yes, with our with our three kids, when I take a step back and ask, OK, they're saying something that feels odd or unlike them or I'm surprised this is provoking this response in them. Is it is it their identity, belonging or purpose that's at play here? It's like the penny drops and I come to understand.   So, I would say, you know, if we can wear those identity, belonging and purpose lenses, that really helps us understand young people. The other thing and, you know, I'm a professor, so I would give myself about a C plus in what I'm going to share next. OK, so if this is something I'm working on, it's this it's never make a statement if you can ask a question instead, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead.   And so, the more that we can ask questions about what young people are experiencing, like why, why, you know, in a very nonjudgmental way, like I'm just curious. And I start a lot of my questions with that. I'm curious.   I'm curious, like what does tick tock mean to you? Then, you know, that that can open up a real conversation instead of them feeling like we're somehow judging them for their technological use. I was proud of myself yesterday.   Like I said, I give myself about a C plus on this. But yesterday I was talking to my daughter about something. And I asked her, like, well, because she had stepped up to lead something.   And so instead of offering my advice, I said to her, well, you know, what do you think you did well as you were leading? And is there anything that you would want to do differently? And we were in the line of a fast-food place.   And I thought, yes, way to go. I ask questions instead of making statements, instead of offering my opinion. So, and sometimes we have to offer our opinion, for sure.   But just as a general rule, we can ask questions, especially the older our kids get. They respond to that better than us always sharing what we think.   Laura Dugger: (22:39 - 22:47) Well, and I also think you're even modeling this in the way you share stories is humility. So, when you partner that together, that seems very powerful.   Dr. Kara Powell: (22:48 - 23:53) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. My one of my kids said something so interesting. At Mother's Day, my husband asked each of them to share something that they appreciated about me and which was wonderful to receive that affirmation.   And one of them and I I'm not going to reveal the gender here because I haven't asked this child permission to share this. But what my child said was that I was asking them for advice in a way that made it feel more like we were becoming friends. And I had asked this child for advice in the last couple of months about a couple situations.   And so, again, my kids are 19, 22 and 24. So, you know, it's different with younger kids. But for those of us with older kids, it was significant to this child of mine that I was asking them for advice.   And so, I want to keep doing that. I want to keep doing that. So, because I truly do want their perspective.   Yeah, I truly do want their perspective. And it means something to them when I do.   Laura Dugger: (23:54 - 25:28) Yes, absolutely. And I'm thinking back, this may have been like episode three back in 2018. But I talk with Annie Chapman.   She had written the book, The Mother-in-Law Dance. And what you're saying, she pointed out that what makes us a great parent and especially a great mother, the first half of our children's life or the first portion of our children's life at home, it's the opposite of the latter years. And so, you're right.   You're not probably going to ask your five-year-old for advice. But at your kids' phases, that is significant. Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights?   Make sure you access all of this at TheSavvySauce.com by clicking the button that says Join Our Email List so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy.    This discussion with young people is also tied into your recent and optimistic book.   So, I'll hold it up here. It's in and you did co-author this with Jake Mulder and Raymond Chang. So, it's entitled Future-Focused Church, and you begin with writing that the brightest days of the church are still ahead.   So, what led you to this optimistic realization?   Dr. Kara Powell: (25:28 - 26:23) Yeah. Yeah. Well, first, God, you know, this is where being a practical theologian comes into play.   Like I'm always trying to understand what is God up to in this situation and just the way that God is constantly working, redeeming, recreating. So, you know, that's the heart of my optimism and Jake and Ray's optimism as fellow co-authors. And then also Future-Focused Church is based on research we did with over a thousand churches where we journeyed with them in the change process and just the way that they were able to make changes that made them more loving, made them more hospitable to young people.   So, it's, you know, it's people like your listeners and churches like those that your audience is part of. That's what made us optimistic is to see how God is working through actual churches.   Laura Dugger: (26:25 - 26:40) I love that. And even near the beginning, it was on page 26, you succinctly gave a definition of a future-focused church. So, will you share that definition and also elaborate on each one of the facets?   Dr. Kara Powell: (26:40 - 29:17) Yeah, yeah. So, it starts with a group of Jesus followers. And, you know, if you look at the original Greek for church, ekklesia, it's not a building.   We use that phrase incorrectly when we say, you know, I'll meet you at church and we mean a building. It's actually those who are called out or from. So, it's always people in the New Testament.   And so, we believe a church is a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. And that's really important to us is this isn't about what Kara, Jake and Ray think you should do or what the church down the street is doing or even what your denomination is doing. It's you seeking God's direction together.   So, and we could have stopped there, honestly, a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. But then because of the time we've spent with over a thousand churches, because of our commitment to young people, because of what we see happening these days, we added three what we call checkpoints, three things that we think should be priorities for churches these days. One is relationally discipling young people.   And, you know, we were intentionally using the words relationally discipling. It's not just entertaining. It's not just standing near young people at worship service.   But how are we actually investing in young people? And then secondly, modeling kingdom diversity. Again, if you look at our country ethnically and racially, we are a diverse country.   And so, how can we model that? How can our churches reflect what our neighborhoods are? And then thirdly, tangibly loving our neighbors.   Jesus said that, you know, they will know that we are Christians by our love for another, for each other, as well as our love for neighbors. And so, how can we make sure that we are really a place that is salt and light? As I mentioned, you know, we are trying to be in Pasadena as churches these days as we're recovering from the fires.   So, we encourage churches to look at those three checkpoints in particular. But then again, we want churches to figure out what God is inviting them towards. So, maybe that's more prayer.   Maybe that's being more involved globally in evangelism, you know, whatever it might be. Seek that direction together. But then what we try to do is give a map to get there, because a lot of churches know what they want to change, but don't know how to bring about change.   And so, that's actually what the bulk of our book is about, is helping leaders know how to move their church from here to God's direction for them.   Laura Dugger: (29:18 - 30:27) And that's incredible that you walked with so many churches through that process. But I was especially encouraged by you being partial to sharing stories. And so, we recently did an entire stories series on The Savvy Sauce, and it was so compelling and faith building.   I can link to a sample of those in the show notes. But you write about stories shaping culture. And I just I want to share your quote and then ask you how we can actually implement this.   So, your quote is from page 57, where you write, “Organizational culture is best communicated and illustrated by stories. As well modeled by Jesus, one of the best ways to shift the culture of a church is through the disciplined and consistent telling of clear and compelling stories that invite a different culture and way of being.” So, Kara, how have you seen this done well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (30:27 - 33:10) Yeah, yeah. Well, I think about whatever system we're in, whether it's our families or whether it's our churches or whatever organization we're in. Yeah, our stories become really the key messages of what our culture is.   And so, I want to go back to that church that we were talking about that had a Google calendar and now does a Sunday announcement every week of kids' events. Well, that church is also capturing stories of the 81-year-old who showed up at the 16-year-old soccer game, who didn't even know her all that well, but just had a free Thursday afternoon and knew that she was playing. And the pastor who was also on the sidelines at that soccer game, who ended up talking to both the parents of the 16-year-old and the 81-year-old.   And so, that became a story for that church of how different generations are supporting young people. And so, that pastor has told that story multiple, multiple times. You know, I just think about in our family, our kids love hearing our stories.   And that's part of how they I mean, it's a big, a big theme and how they come to know what it means to be a Powell. So, you know, earlier I said, you know, I said, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead. I think the exception to that, Laura, is if we're going to tell a story because stories communicate so much.   One of our one of our children is struggling with being anxious about something. And I was anxious last night. I never lose sleep.   I so rarely lose sleep. But I did last night. I was up for about an hour and a half in the middle of the night, finally ended up having a prayer time.   And that helped me go back to sleep. But I'm looking forward to telling my child, who's also struggling with anxiety, that story of me experiencing some, you know, 3:00 a.m. anxiety and what eventually helped me is kind of reflecting on a mantra I feel like God's given me. And I want to share that with my child, not to nag them, but just to let them know that, you know, in our family, this is how we want to try to respond to anxiety.   And maybe my story can be helpful for you the next time that you're struggling with it, which might be today. So, so, yes, the more that we can share our present and our past experiences, whether it's as individuals, families, organizations, the more that we communicate the cultural values that we want.   Laura Dugger: (33:11 - 33:45) That's so good. And I love how you're relating that to parents as well, because from the very youngest ages, tell me a story. And if it's like if we remember a story of them when they're a child, they just grasp onto that.   And we when we're tired at the end of the night, if we run out of our stories, we love even just reading aloud true stories of other people, too. OK, and I'm partnering then thinking of stories and one of your facets about I love how you said it. I'd love for you to repeat. Is it strategically discipling, relationally discipling?   Dr. Kara Powell: (33:45 - 33:46) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (33:46 - 35:03) OK, so my brother and sister's church, I'm just going to highlight theirs because I love something that both of them are doing with our nieces and nephews. They just have them, the youth, write down three names of somebody in a different generation above theirs that they would enjoy getting to know, spending time with. And then they get matched with one of those people and they enter a yearlong mentorship relationship.   And I'm just thinking, one, their mentors all happen to be open nesters. And the male and female who have mentored our nieces and nephews, the female took our nieces, would send them a copy of a recipe, say, get these groceries this week. I'm coming to your house on Tuesday and we're going to cook all of this together and have it ready for your family dinner.   Just so practical and that they just build a love for each other. And then a similar thing with our nephews, where whatever that mentor's skill was, he was great at even making, I think, wood fired pizzas and just showing them practical skills, but relationally investing. And you see the youth's growth and maturity from that discipleship.   Dr. Kara Powell: (35:03 - 36:17) So, yeah, that's awesome. And not only the young people, but the adults, too. Like what's been so great, Laura, is, you know, while much of our research has looked at how adults change young people and how churches change young people, every time we study that, we see how young people change adults and churches, too.   So, you know, for that male and female who are mentoring your nieces and nephews, how they come to understand more about themselves, God, life, scripture, as they're spending time with young people, that's just really, really powerful. So, I also want to highlight, I love how your example, how it starts by asking young people, like who are some adults that you would like to spend more time with that you look up to? And, you know, we would do that with our kids when we needed babysitters.   Like who are some adults that you would like to get to know and how wonderful then that we could ask those adults, especially if they were of babysitting age, to come and be with our kids. And that way we were getting the babysitting we needed and our kids were getting the mentoring that they needed. So, so, yes, I think, you know, giving a young person some agency and who they spend time with, that's really beautiful in that example.   Laura Dugger: (36:18 - 36:21) Oh, that's and that's genius for a family life.   Dr. Kara Powell: (36:21 - 36:22) Yeah, exactly, exactly.   Laura Dugger: (36:23 - 36:39) Well, you also share some other helpful tips for churches, such as considering questions like, would anyone miss our church if it closed down? So, do you have any other practical tips that you want to make sure we don't miss?   Dr. Kara Powell: (36:39 - 40:19) Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, I'll offer a few questions that we have found really helpful. And I'll start with questions when your kids are in elementary and then I'll give a couple of questions when your kids are older.   So, so one of the questions that we love asking at dinner when our kids were in elementary was, how did you see God at work today? And I will say that when I first raised that question, one of my daughters said, “Well, mommy, I can't answer that question. And I said, why not?”   She said, “Well, I don't have a job. How did you see God at work today? So, then we had to say, well, how did you see God working today?”   And I, you know, and equally important as our kids asking that question is that we were, excuse me, as our kids answering that question is that we were answering that question. And so, so, you know, any way that you can involve meaningful sharing, whether it's a dinner, whether it's a bedtime and that you are sharing, too. So, so that that's been a great one for our family.   And then when your kids get older, a couple come to mind. One is two pairs of questions actually come to mind. One is, you know, the phrase never make a statement.   Maybe you can ask the question said sometimes we do need to offer our advice as parents, our perspective. And I have found when I do that with my kids is now that they're late young adults, if I ask them first, well, what do you disagree with and what I said and give them an opportunity to critique what I said, then and then I ask a second question. OK, well, what might you agree with and what I said?   They're far more open to sharing what they agree with if they first have had a chance to critique me. So, I offer that as in those moments when you do need to offer your opinion or perspective, how can we still make it a dialogue? One way is to invite your kid to critique you.   And they'll probably point out things that you do need to reconsider, or at least it's good to hear those from your young person. Another pair of questions that that I have found so helpful with our kids is as they get older and really come to own their own faith. I love asking our kids, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe?   And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe? So, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe? And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe?   What I love about that is that it's making overt that our faith is going to continue to change and grow. And that's true for all of us. And it also makes differences discussable, because I'd far rather know how my kids' faith is changing and how it's different or similar than mine than not know.   And, you know, as we've asked our kids those questions over the years, sometimes their answer is like, not much has changed. Like, you know, but other times they do have different opinions that they want to share with me. And then I try to have that non-defensive, oh, OK, well, I'm curious.   Then again, starting phrase with I'm curious and then asking a question has given us some of the best conversations. So, you can get really tangible. How did you see God at work today?   But then as your kids get older, ask questions that that are more open-ended and can help you really understand where your kids are at.   Laura Dugger: (40:20 - 41:15) I love that.    And I'm just thinking if people are listening like I listen to podcasts, it's when I'm on the go, when I'm doing a walk in the morning or if I'm cleaning around the house. And if you don't get a chance to take notes, we do have transcripts available now for all these episodes, but I would think so many people have written in about dialogue and questions for teenagers and how to handle.   And I love the way you responded to all of that. So, even grab the transcript and write down those questions and try them at dinner or bedtime tonight. But then even thinking of churches for practical tips, what do you have as far as hospitality and the impact that it could make if we're building relationships through hospitality?   But you also call out three ways to build relationships through sharing meals, sharing stories and sharing experiences.   Dr. Kara Powell: (41:15 - 43:08) Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think you've named it, Laura. How do we have a hospitable, open heart and open churches?   And I just want to go back to this question. Like, is our church a place that our kids and our grandkids would want to be part of? And if we keep asking that question, I think it helps us prioritize the next generation and make space for them at our meals, within our stories and within our experiences.   Now, I will say this, you know, I talk so much about intergenerational relationships and bringing the generations together. Like, I do think there's a time and a place for 16-year-olds to be on their own and 46-year-olds to be on their own and 76-year-olds to be on their own. It's just finding that balance of when do we bring all the generations together?   And then when do we want to have those special life development, life stage development conversations ourselves? And most churches are swinging far more toward we keep generations separate and need to swing the pendulum back to how can we have shared meals together? How can we serve together in ways that are shared?   And, you know, I'll just say this last thought when it comes to sharing experiences, especially those that are service. You know, a lot of churches have young people who are serving. They're in children's ministry, they're in sound, they're in tech, etc.   And that's awesome. And I think the question becomes, like, how can that young person be more than just a warm body who passes out graham crackers? And how can I think, OK, I'm teaching third graders and I'm also trying to mentor this 15-year-old who's working with me with the third graders and same with sound.   So, you know, anytime you're interacting with young people, it's an opportunity to influence, especially as you're sharing more about yourself.   Laura Dugger: (43:10 - 43:15) Love that. And you seem like an idea person as well. So, I'm going to bounce another idea.   Dr. Kara Powell: (43:16 - 43:16) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (43:16 - 43:45) What I'm gathering is obviously we're keeping Jesus at the center and you're not downplaying the need for scripture or Bible study. And those kind of things but also adding there is value in I'm thinking shared experience. Specifically, I'm thinking of pickleball.   It's something that appeals to a wide age range. What if your church had invested in a pickleball sport to do something that could bring people together? So, what are your thoughts on that?     Dr. Kara Powell: (43:45 - 45:22) Yeah. Yeah. Pickleball, you know, senior adults who need tech help from teenagers.   That's another great way to connect people. I mean, any kind of shared interest 1 Thessalonians 2:8 is such an important scripture passage for me when it comes to discipleship. And Paul writes that we were delighted to share with you not just the gospel, but our very lives.   And so, how can we share life, whether it's pickleball, whether it's pizza? I'm running out of alliteration here. I was trying to do something else that started with P.   And for leaders who are listening, how can you take what you're already doing and make it more intergenerational? So, that's the other thing we like to tell churches is whether it's pickleball or whether it's well, we're already serving at the local homeless center to help people who are unhoused. Well, instead of that only being a youth event, maybe make that an all church event and see if adults come who can be mentoring young people.   So, you know, I love what one church did. Many churches have done this, actually, when they're looking for small group for homes where small groups can be for young people instead of going to like the parents of the teenagers. What if we go to our senior adults or our open or slash empty nesters and see if they'll open their homes?   Because then it's bringing more adults into contact with young people. And those adults who open their homes can also open their lives. So, yeah, just continuing to ask, how can we make this more of a connection across generations?   Goodness.   Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 45:39) And you have so many ideas and some of these are mentioned in this book, but you've also written many more helpful resources. So, will you give us an overview of the other books that you've authored and share a bit of what we might find if we read? Dr. Kara Powell: (45:39 - 46:42) Yeah. So, our most recent book, as you've mentioned, is Future Focus Church, and that's especially geared to help leaders know how to move a ministry from where they are now to where God wants it to be. It's been so great to journey with leaders through that.   Probably our best book that offers a ton of questions you can ask young people is Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, where we get into identity, belonging and purpose, which I mentioned. And we have over 300 questions that an adult, whether it's a family member or a mentor or a neighbor or congregant can use with young people. And then the last one I'll offer is The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family comes out of our previous Sticky Faith research.   How do you help young people have faith that lasts? We have a special chapter in that book for grandparents. So, for any grandparents who are listening, that whole book and that chapter is a great resource.   But also we have had a lot of parents, stepparents say that The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family has been one of their favorite books.   Laura Dugger: (46:43 - 47:02) That's incredible. I'll have to link to those in the show notes for today's episode. But I'm sure you're aware we are called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is anonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Dr. Kara Powell: (47:03 - 48:16) That's a really good question, Laura. OK, I'll say I'll share the first thing that came to mind when you asked it. Gosh, probably 10 or 12 years ago, I read a book and from the book I adapted a phrase for my work life and my personal life, which is if it's not a definite yes, it's a no.   As a busy mom, as a busy employee, as a busy leader, I see potential in so many things. And so, I want to say yes to so many things. And then I end up tired.   I end up empty. I end up not being able to say yes to something maybe better that comes a month later because I've already committed to, you know, plan my seventh graders camping trip or give a talk or, you know, whatever it might be. And so, that phrase, we made it a six-month experiment in the Foley Youth Institute as well as in our family.   Like it's not a definite yes, it's a no. And it really helped us say no to things, trim and I think find a much more manageable pace. So, as we pray, as we pray, it's not a definite yes, it's a no.   That's been game changing for me.   Laura Dugger: (48:17 - 48:57) Well, I love how much you've modeled applying these things at your work or in our church, but also in our family life. It's all transferable. And Kara, this has just been a super special conversation because you've been on my list to have a conversation with for over a decade, probably since I got my hands on Sticky Faith.   And I just appreciate we've been talking as we were praying before we were recording. You desire so much, not only for young people, but for all people to experience this abundant life in Christ. And I'm so grateful for you and just want to say thank you for being my guest.   Dr. Kara Powell: (48:57 - 49:03) Oh, my pleasure, Laura. And thanks to you and how you serve your audience as well as our world. It's been an honor.   Laura Dugger: (49:04 - 52:19) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.    Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.    We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.    That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.    This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.    Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.    And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.    First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.    You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.    And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Today's podcast kicks off a new series, running through November 3rd, and concludes with Dr. Karl Lehman. This 6-week series focuses on identity, attachment, wounds, lament, and securing our attachment in Christ, not your marriage.In this episode of Neurodiverse Christian Couples, hosts Dan and Stephanie welcome back neurotheologian Dr. Jim Wilder for a deep dive into identity formation, attachment, and the brain, especially as it relates to neurodiverse individuals and marriages. Dr. Wilder explains how our identity develops from infancy through adolescence, highlighting key brain regions (like the orbital prefrontal cortex, corpus callosum, and mirror neuron system) and how they contribute to our sense of self and our ability to connect with others. He discusses what happens when these developmental processes are disrupted or different — as is often the case in autism, ADHD, and other developmental differences — and how this affects relationships, emotional regulation, and group belonging. The conversation explores: How attachment and caregiver attunement in infancy shape emotional identity.Why the adolescent brain shifts focus from Who am I? to Who are my people? — and how failing to find a “herd” can impact identity.The biological and neurological reasons why change (especially in neurodiverse individuals) takes time, encouragement, and community rather than just “trying harder.”Why accountability in the traditional sense often fails, and how a supportive group offering healthy correction is much more effective for growth and transformation.How autism impacts the identity center of the brain and its implications for marital relationships  This episode sets the stage for a series on identity and attachment, touching on grief, resilience, and sacred attachment, with upcoming guests offering complementary perspectives. If you're curious about how brain development, faith, and neurodiversity intersect — especially within marriage and community — this episode provides both insight and encouragement. About Our Guest Dr. Jim Wilder:Dr. Jim Wilder has been training leaders and counselors for over 30 years on five continents. Jim grew up in South America and is bilingual (English/Spanish). He is the author of nineteen books with a strong focus on maturity and relational skills. Dr. Wilder has served as a guest lecturer at Fuller Seminary, Biola, Talbot Seminary, Point Loma University, Montreat College, Tyndale Seminary, and elsewhere.  Dr. Jim Wilder has extensive clinical counseling experience and is the chief neurotheologian of Life Model Works, a nonprofit working at the intersection of theology and brain science. Life Model Works builds on the fifty-year legacy of Shepherd's House, which began in the 1970s as a ministry to street kids in Van Nuys, California. In those early days, Jim worked with the team of volunteer counselors and Fuller Seminary faculty to build a counseling center to help broken people recover from negative habits, addictions, abuse, and trauma. By the 1990s, Jim was Assistant Director and later Executive Director of Shepherd's House, helping hundreds of pastors and churches with their toughest counseling cases. Jim was intimately involved in 1987 when Shepherd's House conducted a careful review of why some people with the same level of trauma and treatment recovered, but others did not. The results of this case-by-case study became The Life Model, a new recovery model. The Life Model study findings were published in Living from the Heart Jesus Gave You. Other podcasts we referenced:Escaping Enemy Mode Podcast:https://www.spreaker.com/episode/escaping-enemy-mode-with-dr-jim-wilder--52449734 What is LifeModel?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOcc2QJ0tTg Fear Bonds and Love Bonds with Dr. Wilderhttps://www.spreaker.com/episode/fear-bonds-love-bonds-and-q-a-with-dr-jim-wilder--57526192 Dr. Wilder's Books for 2026 CoursesLife Passages of MenGrowing a More Human Community  

Can Our Enemies Teach Us Anything?   A.J. Swoboda joins the Good Faith podcast to unpack how cultivating a teachable spirit and practicing true discipleship means learning from enemies, strangers, and neighbors in a divided world. He emphasizes how to recognize real experts amid alternate facts and subjective “truths,” and tells how the countercultural practice of learning from anyone—regardless of agreement—fosters humility, empathy, and connection, insights drawn from his book A Teachable Spirit.   (03:11) - Cultivating a Teachable Spirit (09:38) - Reverse Prophecy and Calling Out Your Tribe (17:55) - Experts & Expertise (22:09) - Sola Scriptura vs. “Solo” Scriptura (23:27) - Jesus Would Be the Best At Anything (32:04) - Replacing Our Neighbors With Technology (45:03) - Learning From Enemies   Join The After Party   Send Campfire Stories to: info@redeemingbabel.org   Donate to Redeeming Babel   Mentioned In This Episode: A.J. Swoboda's A Teachable Spirit How John Calvin understood the Ten Commandments Erving Goffman's The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life (pdf) More about Fuller Seminary's John Goldengay Roger Kneebone: The Path To Expertise and Why Experts Matter Understanding Erving Goffman's concept of Civil Inattention Dallas Willard's sermon: The Genius of Jesus, part 1 (video) Dallas Willard's Jesus the Logician (article) How Should Pastors Respond to Charlie Kirk's Assassination? (article) Scriptures Referenced: The Sermon on the Mount: Matthew 5-7 (ESV) Mark 12:30-31 (ESV) Deuteronomy 10 (ESV) Hebrews 13:2 (ESV)   More From A.J. Swoboda: A.J. Swoboda and Nijay Gupta's The Slow Theology Podcast   A.J. Swoboda's Low Level Theology Substack A.J. Swoboda's The Dusty Ones: Why Wandering Deepens Your Faith  Follow Us: Good Faith on Instagram Good Faith on X (formerly Twitter) Good Faith on Facebook   Sign up: Redeeming Babel Newsletter   The Good Faith Podcast is a production of Redeeming Babel, a 501(c)(3) nonpartisan organization that does not engage in any political campaign activity to support or oppose any candidate for public office. Any views and opinions expressed by any guests on this program are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Redeeming Babel.

Millions of people today face dire medical and mental health challenges. What role should the church play in foreign humanitarian aid to address starvation and deadly illness? In this episode, Eric Ha, CEO of Medical Teams International, joins Mark Labberton for a sobering, hopeful conversation on global humanitarian crises and the role of the church in responding to both the physical and spiritual needs of those who are suffering. Drawing from his years at International Justice Mission and now at Medical Teams International, Ha shares vivid accounts from refugee camps in East Africa and migrant communities in Colombia. He reflects on the collapse of US foreign aid, the limits of humanitarian response, and the urgent need for churches to reclaim their historic role in caring for the vulnerable. Ha wrestles candidly with the calling of Christian communities to embody God's expansive love even amid staggering need. Episode Highlights “These humans that bear the image of the divine and the eternal, and the holy and the sacred.” “Last year, Medical Teams staff helped deliver fifty thousand babies—that's a delivery every ten minutes, somewhere around the world in these extraordinarily harsh settings.” “Finding the thread and kernel of hope is actually a lot more challenging.” “For thousands of years prior to the UN, the infrastructure and ecosystem for the care of refugees was the church. It was God's people.” “The gospel is an outward pushing invitation.… It is the pushing out actually into the far and remote places of suffering in need, and to see the presence of God.” Helpful Links and Resources Medical Teams International International Justice Mission UNHCR: The UN Refugee Agency PEPFAR—The US President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief Clinton Global Initiative About Eric Ha Eric Ha is the chief executive officer of Medical Teams International, a Christian humanitarian relief organization providing life-saving medical care for people in crisis worldwide. Before joining Medical Teams, he served more than a decade in senior leadership roles at International Justice Mission, advancing global efforts to combat human trafficking and slavery. A lawyer by training, Ha brings a deep commitment to justice, compassion, and the mobilization of the church in service of the vulnerable. Show Notes Global Humanitarian Crises and Refugee Care Eric Ha shares his journey from law and IJM to leading Medical Teams International Medical Teams founded in response to Cambodia's killing fields, continuing nearly 50 years of healthcare missions Primary healthcare for refugees: maternal care, vaccinations, mosquito nets, antimalarials, antidiarrheals, and mental health Serving 9 million people in East Africa, including Uganda, Ethiopia, Tanzania, and Sudan Refugee camps lack electricity, clean water, and adequate shelter—average displacement nearly 20 years Medical Teams delivers maternal care that dramatically reduces mortality, helping deliver 50,000 babies last year Healthcare and Human Dignity The crisis is not statistics—it's humans bearing God's image, glimpses of laughter, joy, and resilience Colombia: working with Venezuelan migrants amid drastic cuts in U.S. aid (down to 10% of prior levels) Withdrawal of foreign aid leaves communities devastated and forces NGOs to scale back Transition from justice work at IJM to medical humanitarian work brings both immediacy of impact and insufficiency of resources Hope and Despair in Humanitarian Work Theories of change at IJM allowed for hope in systemic reform; displacement crises feel harder to solve Challenge of holding onto hope in the face of preventable death and suffering Churches historically provided refugee care before the UN; today, withdrawal of aid exposes the need for church re-engagement Need to reimagine church-government partnerships in humanitarian response Empathy, Collaboration, and Mental Health Empathy as essential orientation in humanitarian work, easily lost without intentionality Competitiveness and survivalism among NGOs risks eclipsing empathy Mental health needs are massive: trauma among children in refugee camps threatens future stability Clinton Global Initiative highlights Medical Teams' commitment to expand mental health care for children in Sudan Training local health workers and communities to recognize trauma and create safe spaces for children Invitation to the Church and Listeners The gospel calls us outward, not inward—expanding our experience of God's vastness through engagement with suffering Churches must discern how to integrate humanitarian concerns without distraction, embracing their historic role in refugee care Prayer requests: for hope, for patience to wait on the Lord, and for wisdom in making hard decisions “We are invited into a different orientation—the empathy piece is so critical because it is the thing that allows us to engage.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

In this episode of Next Gen Now, we're joined by Dr. David Fraze—former student minister at The Hills, now a national leader in youth and family ministry. Dr. Fraze reflects on how his time in local church ministry shaped his passion for intergenerational discipleship and explores how faith, family, practices, community and service intersect to form resilient young believers. We also dive into his role in the Tenx10 initiative, a nationwide effort to help faith matter more to the next generation. From practical wisdom to personal stories, Dr. Fraze offers encouragement for parents, pastors, and leaders as they seek to pass on faith across generations. Whether you're in student ministry or simply care about the future of the Church, this conversation will inspire and equip you. David Fraze (D.Min., Fuler Theological Seminary) is a Professor and Endowed Chair of the Youth and Family Ministry Program at Lubbock Christian University. David has been in student ministry and has worked with students for over 35 years. David is a popular speaker at Youth Events, Public/Private SchoolEvents, Ministry Trainings and Seminars. David is a writer who has contributed articles for youthspecialties.com, ENGAGE, the quarterly journal of The Center for Parent/Youth Understanding, Youth WorkerJ ournal, Journal of Student Ministries, and the Fuller Youth Institute. He authored Practical Wisdom for Youth Ministry: Not-So-Simple Truths That Matter and contributed a chapter to Owning Faith. David has co-authored a book entitled Practical Wisdom for Youth Group Parents: Partnering With Your Youth Minister. David also wrote Practical Wisdom for Athletic Families: How to Survive and Thrive in Competitive Athletics. David worked withYouth Specialties (www.youthspecialties.com) as the leader of Ministry Coaching and was a seminar speaker at the National Youth Workers Convention and is the Co-Editor of the Youth Specialties Blog. He is a speaker and partner with the Fuller Youth Institute speaking on the topics of Sticky Faith, Growing Young and Right Click (a seminar of technology). He is a coach with the Dallas Cowboys Football Youth Academy and a resource for various Dallas Cowboys youth and coach education programs. He writes and is the on-camera personality for the KCBD 11 “That's Good Stuff” news segment. He also serves as Character Coach for the Friendship High School Football program. He has been married to Lisa for 32 years. They have two children, Braeden and Shelbee. Braeden is married to Jenna and they have their first child, Olivia Rose. https://www.greatopportunity.org - Download Pintetops Study https://www.tenx10.org Practical Wisdom for Youth Ministry: The Not-So-Simple Truths That Matter Practical Wisdom for Youth Group Parents: Partnering with Your Youth Minister  Practical Wisdom for Families with Athletes: Winning Isn't the Ultimate Goal  lcu.edu Reach out to us at nextgennow@thehills.org and find more information about The Hills Church at www.thehills.org.

The church is so much more than a building—but when it comes to managing the physical property of church real estate, we often overlook the great good that can emerge from the land and structures. In this episode, social entrepreneur, strategic executive, and author Mark Elsdon joins Mark Labberton on Conversing to explore how churches and faith communities can reimagine their assets—land, buildings, and money—as instruments for mission, community transformation, and spiritual flourishing. From his decades of work at Pres House in Madison, Wisconsin, to his role as consultant, author, and co-leader of RootedGood, Elsdon shares stories of innovation, courage, and the hard but hopeful work of repurposing property and resources for God's mission in the world. Episode Highlights “It isn't about property, nor is it about money. It's about people's lives and it's about God's work in people's lives.” “We often have the faith of our forebears in the church. But the question is, do we have the courage of them?” “I don't think God's going away. I don't think God's declining. But the way people are engaging their faith is really changed and is changing.” “Sometimes I talk about this as like the Blockbuster Video moment… People still want experiences of the divine. They just don't want to access it primarily on a Sunday morning.” “Constraints can produce creativity and, in the life of faith, can also produce a willingness to trust.” Helpful Links and Resources Mark Elsdon's Website *We Aren't Broke: Uncovering Hidden Resources for Mission and Ministry,* by Mark Elsdon *Gone for Good? Negotiating the Coming Wave of Church Property Transition,* by Mark Elsdon RootedGood - resources for congregations, judicatories, and other church leaders related to social enterprise and church property Good Futures Accelerator course How-To Guides Threshold Sacred Development - A mission-aligned property development company focused on supporting churches doing community-oriented development About Mark Elsdon Mark Elsdon lives and works at the intersection of money and meaning as an entrepreneur, non-profit executive, author, and speaker. He is the author of We Aren't Broke: Uncovering Hidden Resources for Mission and Ministry (2021) and editor of Gone for Good? Negotiating the Coming Wave of Church Property Transition (2024). In addition to his role as a director with RootedGood, Mark is also executive director at Pres House, where he led the transformation of a dormant non-profit into a growing, vibrant, multi-million-dollar organization. Mark has a BA in psychology from the University of California–Berkeley, a master of divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary, and an MBA from the University of Wisconsin School of Business. He is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church, USA, and lives in Madison, Wisconsin. Mark is an avid cyclist and considers it a good year when he rides more miles on his bike than he drives in his car. Show Notes Mark Elsdon reflects on thirty years of ministry, beginning with campus work at the University of Wisconsin–Madison. Launch of a $17 million student housing project that became a transformative ministry for thousands of students. Elsdon's discovery: “It isn't about property, nor is it about money. It's about people's lives and it's about God's work in people's lives.” Creation of a sober housing program at Pres House that has saved the state of Wisconsin more than a million dollars in addiction-related costs. Innovative blend of mission, ministry, and real estate development to foster student flourishing. The unique impact of housing students in recovery alongside the wider student population. Elsdon's MBA studies at UW–Madison and his calling at the intersection of money and mission. The “Blockbuster Video moment” for American Christianity: people still seek meaning, community, and transcendence, but not in traditional formats. Challenges churches face with aging buildings, declining attendance, and financial strain. How repurposing property reveals new opportunities for mission and ministry. RootedGood's “Good Futures” Accelerator course: helping churches rethink land, buildings, and resources for social enterprise and revenue generation. Example of two congregations in Madison merging to create an environmentally sustainable multifamily housing project and community center. Redefining church property as community space: “flipping the script” so the building belongs to the neighborhood, with the church as anchor tenant. Courage, risk-taking, and letting go of past models are essential for churches to reimagine their future. The critical role of pastoral and lay leadership in sparking change and vision. Storytelling as central to church renewal: “We often have the faith of our forebears in the church. But the question is, do we have the courage of them?” Learning from the pandemic: every church has the capacity for innovation and adaptation. Honouring grief and loss while embracing resurrection hope in church property transitions. Example from San Antonio: members resisted redevelopment until their need for funerals in the sanctuary was acknowledged—turning “either/or” into “both/and.” Affordable housing crisis intersects directly with church land opportunities. Turner Center study: California churches and colleges hold land equal to five Oaklands suitable for affordable housing development. Elsdon warns against cookie-cutter “models” and emphasizes local context, story, and creativity. Forecast: up to 100,000 church properties in the US may be sold or repurposed in the next decade. Elsdon's hope: more repurposing than selling, with land and buildings becoming assets for life-giving mission. The value of constraints: “Constraints can produce creativity and, in the life of faith, can also produce a willingness to trust.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

This sabbath, we celebrated Hispanic Heritage Month by having a guest speaker, Dr. Johnny Ramirez-Johnson, professor of Anthropology in the School of Intercultural Studies at Fuller Seminary, share about how Hispanic theology speaks powerfully into our collective hope—the return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead all through delving into Mark 12:18-27. Hispanic theology output focuses on the Second Coming and how death's ultimate remedy will be resurrection. Today's sermon places death as an event on the road. Death is not the end! We will meditate on the road of death and resurrection. Join us for live worship every Saturday at 9am and 11:45am in Grand Terrace. Our address is 22633 Barton Rd, Grand Terrace CA, 92313--Hope to see you soon! Connect with us: Instagram: @azurehills Facebook: Azure Hills Church Website: azurehills.org Podcasts: Spotify/Apple/PodBean @Azure Hills SDA Church Online Giving: If you would like to support Azure Hills Church and its ministries, visit Adventist Giving: https://adventistgiving.org/#/org/ANPMBQ/envelope/start

Unity is acting together even when we don't think alike. And one of the primary aims of the American Constitution is to support a democracy of those unified in diversity. Yuval Levin joins Mark Labberton to explore the precarious state of American constitutional life and the imbalance of power between the branches of the U.S. government. Drawing from his book America's Covenant, Levin argues that the Founders designed the Constitution above all to preserve unity in a divided society. Yet today, he warns, the imbalance of power—particularly the weakness of Congress and the rise of presidential authority—threatens democratic legitimacy. In this conversation, Levin reflects on originalism, the courts, Donald Trump's expanding influence, and the dangers of both passivity and autocracy. With clarity and urgency, he calls for renewed civic engagement and for Congress to reclaim its central role. Episode Highlights “Unity doesn't mean thinking alike. Unity means acting together. And the question for a modern political society is how do we act together when we don't think alike?” “The biggest problem we have is that Congress is under-active, radically under-active and has turned itself into a spectator.” “The president is in charge of the executive branch, but the executive branch is not in charge of the American government.” “I am very concerned about this kind of Caesar-ism. I think it is very dangerous.” “What we're seeing is constitutional creep, where the president is pushing and nobody's pushing back, and only Congress can do it.” “I worry a lot about Donald Trump. But the reason I worry is because Congress isn't doing its job.” “The politics of an autocratic state is a politics of spectators, and we just cannot become spectators.” “All of us will find ourselves in the minority sooner or later.” Helpful Links and Resources America's Covenant: The Constitution and the Path to National Unity, by Yuval Levin American Enterprise Institute (Find Yuval Levin's current research and publications) *New York Times Opinion* – Yuval Levin's columns at the New York Times About Yuval Levin Yuval Levin is director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Curry Chair in Public Policy. He is the founder and editor of National Affairs, senior editor of The New Atlantis, a contributing editor at National Review, and a contributing opinion writer at The New York Times. He is the author of several books on political theory and public policy, most recently American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again (Basic Books, 2024), which examines the U.S. Constitution through the lens of national unity in a divided society. Show Notes Constitutional unity and division Yuval Levin summarizes America's Covenant as a reintroduction to the Constitution framed around the challenge of unity in diversity. “Unity doesn't mean thinking alike. Unity means acting together.” The Constitution prioritizes bargaining, negotiation, and legitimacy over efficiency. Congress was designed as the “first branch” of government to embody pluralism and force compromise. The decline of Congress and rise of the presidency Levin argues Congress is radically under-active, ceding ground to presidents and courts. “The biggest problem we have is that Congress is under-active, radically under-active and has turned itself into a spectator.” Excessive focus on the presidency erodes democratic legitimacy. Current frustrations stem from misunderstanding the system's design: it resists narrow majorities and forces broad coalitions. Courts, originalism, and the unitary executive Levin affirms he is an originalist: “a philosophy of judicial interpretation … a mode of self-restraint for judges.” Supreme Court decisions in recent years repeatedly signal: “Congress, do your job.” He outlines the unitary executive theory: the president controls the executive branch, but not the government as a whole. “The president is in charge of the executive branch, but the executive branch is not in charge of the American government.” Trump's expanding power Levin warns of the growing push to centralize authority in the presidency. “I am very concerned about this kind of Caesar-ism. I think it is very dangerous.” Trump's second term differs because restraints have vanished; his circle now encourages unrestrained executive action. Disruption of long-held norms has weakened trust in American institutions globally and domestically. Constitutional crisis vs. constitutional creep Levin distinguishes between “creep,” “conflict,” and “crisis.” He argues the U.S. is experiencing constitutional creep: unchecked executive power without Congress pushing back. True crisis would involve direct defiance of the courts—something still possible but not yet realized. The role of citizens and civic responsibility Levin stresses the danger of passivity: “The politics of an autocratic state is a politics of spectators, and we just cannot become spectators.” Citizens should keep writing to Congress, vote with clear expectations, and engage in local governance. State legislatures, though less visible, often function better than Congress today. Clear thinking itself, Levin suggests, is a moral act for a healthy republic. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

Clinical psychologist Alexis Abernethy explores burnout, Sabbath rest, and resilience—reframing rest as spiritual practice for individuals and communities.“For me, it's knowing that the Lord has made me as much to work as much to be and to be still and know that he is God.”On this episode, clinical psychologist Alexis Abernethy (Fuller Seminary) joins Macie Bridge to discuss burnout, Sabbath, worship, mental health, and resilience in the life of the church. Defining burnout through its dimensions of emotional exhaustion, depersonalization, and reduced sense of accomplishment, Abernethy reflects on how church life can intensify these dynamics even as it seeks to heal them. Drawing from scripture, theology, psychology, and her own experience in the Black church and academic worlds, she reorients us to Sabbath as more than self-care: a sacred practice of being still before God. Sabbath, she argues, is not a quick fix but a preventive rhythm that sustains resilience in leaders and congregations alike. Along the way, she points to the necessity of modeling rest, the impact of daily and weekly spiritual rhythms, and the communal posture that makes Sabbath transformative.Episode Highlights“For me, it's knowing that the Lord has made me as much to work as much to be and to be still and know that he is God.”“Often people have overextended themselves in face of crises, other circumstances over a period of time, and it's just not really sustainable, frankly, for anyone.”“We act as if working hard and excessively is dutiful and really what the Lord wants—but that's not what He wants.”“When you are still with the Lord, you look different when you're active.”“Sabbath rest allows you to literally catch your own breath, but also then be able to see what the congregation needs.”Helpful Links and ResourcesThat Their Work Will Be a Joy, Kurt Frederickson & Cameron LeeHoward Thurman, Meditations of the HeartEmily Dickinson, “Some Keep the Sabbath” (Poetry Foundation)About Alexis AbernethyAlexis Abernethy is a clinical psychologist and professor in the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Her research explores the intersection of spirituality and health, with particular focus on Christian spirituality, church leadership, and group therapy models.Topics and ThemesBurnout in Church Leadership and Congregational LifeDefining Burnout: Emotional Exhaustion, Depersonalization, and Reduced AccomplishmentSpiritual Misconceptions of Work and DutySabbath as Sacred Rest, Not Just Self-CareSilence, Stillness, and the Presence of GodScriptural Foundations for Sabbath: Psalm 23, Psalm 46, John 15The Role of Pastors in Modeling RestPandemic Lessons for Church Rhythms and ParticipationEmily Dickinson and Creative Visions of SabbathResilience Through Sabbath: Lessons from New Orleans PastorsPractical Practices for Sabbath in Everyday LifeShow NotesExodus 20:8-11: 8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work. 10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.Opening framing on burnout, Sabbath, and confusion about self-careIntroduction of Alexis Abernethy, her background as psychologist and professorChildhood in a lineage of Methodist pastors and formative worship experiencesEarly academic path: Howard University, UC Berkeley, affirmation from her fatherDefining burnout: emotional exhaustion, depersonalization, reduced accomplishment“I'm just stuck. I used to enjoy my job.”The church as both source of fulfillment and site of burnoutMisconceptions of spirituality equating overwork with dutyReference: That Their Work Will Be a Joy (Frederickson & Lee)Scriptural reflections: Psalm 23, Psalm 46, John 15Stillness, quiet, and Howard Thurman on solitude“When you are still with the Lord, you look different when you're active.”Sabbath as sacred rest, not a quick fix or pillPastors modeling Sabbath for congregations, including personal family timeCOVID reshaping church rhythms and recalculating commitment costsEmily Dickinson's poem “Some Keep the Sabbath”Lessons from New Orleans pastors after Hurricane KatrinaSabbath as resilience for leaders and congregationsPractical steps: scripture meditation, playlists, Lectio Divina, cultivating quietClosing invitation: Sabbath as both individual discipline and community postureProduction NotesThis podcast featured Alexis AbernethyInterview by Macie BridgeEdited and Produced by Evan RosaHosted by Evan RosaProduction Assistance by Alexa Rollow and Emily BrookfieldA Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/aboutSupport For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give

There's no such thing as a neutral reading of the Bible. Every reading is inflected by first-person experience, cultural context, history, and more. In this episode, biblical scholars Janette Ok and Jordan J. Ryan join Mark Labberton to reflect on The New Testament in Color, a groundbreaking new biblical commentary that brings together diverse voices across racial, cultural, and social locations. They share how their own ethnic and cultural backgrounds as Asian American and Filipino Canadian readers shaped their understanding of Scripture, the importance of social location, using the creeds as guardrails for hermeneutics, and how contextual interpretation deepens biblical authority rather than diminishing it. Episode Highlights “There is no such thing as a neutral reading of the Bible.” —Mark Labberton “It really dawned on me the importance of being aware of who I am, my family background, my history in the United States, all these things.” —Janette Ok “Filipinos I think are always sort of on the margins… trying to understand how Asian we really are or aren't.” —Jordan J. Ryan “Objectivity is nothing more than the fruit of authentic subjectivity.” —Jordan J. Ryan quoting Bernard Lonergan “Colorblindness is actually something that's not true… particularity is fundamental to the gospel.” —Janette Ok “It was one of the most freeing experiences that I've had because it finally gave me permission to do the thing that I'd always wanted to do.” —Jordan J. Ryan Helpful Links and Resources The New Testament in Color: A Multiethnic Commentary on the New Testament (IVP Academic) About Janette Ok Janette Ok is associate professor of New Testament at Fuller Theological Seminary. A leading scholar in Asian American biblical interpretation, she is a co-editor of The New Testament in Color and author of Constructing Ethnic Identity in 1 Peter. About Jordan Ryan Jordan Ryan is associate professor of New Testament at Wheaton College and Graduate School, and author of The Role of the Synagogue in the Aims of Jesus and From the Passion to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. His research explores Acts, archaeology, and Filipino American biblical interpretation. Show Notes The New Testament in color and contextual biblical Interpretation “There is no such thing as a neutral reading of the Bible.” Janette's growing up in a Korean immigrant church in Detroit, carrying “the weight of assimilation.” Asian American literature, especially Bone by Fae Myenne Ng Opening our eyes to the power of articulating immigrant experience Jordan Ryan's mixed-race Canadian upbringing—Filipino mother, white father—and early encounters with Scripture through unhoused communities. “Filipinos are always sort of on the margins of Asian America.” —Jordan Ryan Contextual reading of the bible All readings are contextual, contrasting liberation theology, unhoused readers, and Western academic traditions Challenges and dangers of contextualization “The first danger is to think that we can remove ourselves from the work of textual interpretation.” Social location is not an external lens but intrinsic to the gospel. “Objectivity is nothing more than the fruit of authentic subjectivity.” Archaeology that informs contextual questions “Colorblind” readings ignore particularity and miss the incarnational nature of Scripture. Biblical authority and the living word Biblical authority as central: “It's why I teach at Wheaton College and not somewhere else.” “When we say the Bible is the living Word of God… it means it has to speak to us today.” Preachers already contextualize every Sunday; The New Testament in Color makes this explicit and communal New Testament in Color was initiated by Esau McCaulley in 2018 Preceded by works like True to Our Native Land and Women's Bible Commentary Distinctive by gathering scholars from African American, Latino, Asian American, Native American, and European American backgrounds in one volume Goal: Embody diversity without sacrificing particularity or biblical trust. Commentary on Acts, including Filipino American theology and diaspora identity “It was one of the most freeing experiences that I've had.” He traced themes of foreignness, colonialism, and God's care for the imprisoned in Acts 1 Peter and Asian American biblical interpretation, wrestling with exile, belonging, and “perpetual foreigner” stereotypes Home as central theological concern—“not everyone feels at home in the same way.” —Janette Ok Editing, diversity, and reader reception Balancing freedom with theological boundaries rooted in the creeds Diversity created unevenness, but also richness and authenticity. “The fingerprints that make it so living.” —Janette Ok Professors report the book resonates with students of color whose lived experiences often feel absent in traditional scholarship “Sometimes people don't know where to begin… I encourage my students to always consult scholars who read and look differently from themselves.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Wellll. It's no longer Labor Day week, but we're still on a break. So today, we're bringing you something special: a replay episode of Wil's favorite author! Challenge Accepted! When Wil asked Ashley to book an interview with his favorite author, it at first seemed like an impossible task. But, within a few hours, Dr. Sherwood Lingenfelter responded!Sherwood G. Lingenfelter retired as provost of Fuller Seminary on June 30, 2011, but continues to serve on Fuller's faculty as senior professor of anthropology. He joined Fuller in 1999 as professor and dean of the School of Intercultural Studies (then the School of World Mission) and served as acting provost in 2001 before being appointed provost in 2002.Before his appointment at Fuller, he served as professor of intercultural studies and provost and senior vice president at Biola University, La Mirada, California from 1983 to 1999 and professor of anthropology at SUNY College at Brockport from 1966 to 1983. He holds a BA from Wheaton College and a PhD in Anthropology from the University of Pittsburgh.Dr. Lingenfelter's field research includes three years in the Yap Islands of Micronesia and short-term research projects with the SIL International in Brazil, Cameroon, and Suriname. He has served as research and training consultant to SIL over the last three decades in Papua New Guinea, Borneo, Philippines, Africa, and Latin America. He also contributes regularly to mission conferences and to missionary candidate training for other evangelical mission organizations. His publications include Teamwork Cross-Culturally: Christ-Centered Solutions for Leading Multinational Teams (coauthored with Julie A. Green, 2022), Leadership in the Way of the Cross: Forging Ministry from the Crucible of Crisis (2018), Ministering Cross-Culturally: A Model for Effective Personal Relationships (coauthored with Marvin K. Mayers, 2016), Transforming Culture: A Challenge for Christian Mission (1998), Agents of Transformation: A Guide for Effective Cross-Cultural Ministry (1996), and Leading Cross-Culturally: Covenant Relationships for Effective Christian Leadership (2008). He also served as coauthor with his wife, Dr. Judith Lingenfelter, for Teaching Cross-Culturally: An Incarnational Model for Learning and Teaching (2003), and with Dr. Paul R. Gupta for Breaking Tradition to Accomplish Vision: Training Leaders for a Church Planting Movement (2006).More from Dr. Sherwood Lingenfelter:https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/response-judith-sherwood-lingenfelter/Amazon: Buy Ministering Cross-CulturallyMusic by: Irene & the SleepersLogo by: Jill EllisWebsite: menomissions.orgContact Us: brokenbanquetpodcast@gmail.com

Creativity doesn't come easy. It is often an act of resistance against chaos and other de-personalizing forces. In this episode, author Mitali Perkins joins Mark Labberton to discuss her latest book Just Making: A Guide for Compassionate Creatives. Known for her acclaimed novels for young readers—including You Bring the Distant Near and Rickshaw Girl—Perkins reflects on the creative life as both a gift and a struggle, marked by tenderness and tenacity. With candour about rejection, moments of mortification, and the relentless call to keep making, Perkins offers encouragement for artists who want their work to be both beautiful and just. Episode Highlights “I was very, very close myself to giving up on the creative life.” “Any time we're bringing order from chaos, there's going to be pushback—and it's diabolical pushback.” “Stories widened my heart, they widened my mind, they gave me a sense of calling that I was not just here for myself.” “We can't put on our faith like lace and bows; it has to be in the bones of the story.” “When I feel that embarrassment, that mortification, if I can just stay and do something physical to honour my work, goodness comes pouring back.” “To not write it, after hearing your passion to combat this foe of our age, would be exactly what the diabolical enemy wants us to do.” Helpful Links and Resources Just Making: A Guide for Compassionate Creatives by Mitali Perkins *You Bring the Distant Near* by Mitali Perkins (National Book Award finalist) Rickshaw Girl (adapted into a film) *Steeped in Stories: Timeless Children's Novels to Refresh Our Tired Souls* by Mitali Perkins The Dangerous Act of Worship by Mark Labberton Kiva Microloans About Mitali Perkins Mitali Perkins writes novels for young readers that cross borders and break down walls. Her books include You Bring the Distant Near, a National Book Award nominee; Rickshaw Girl, now a feature film; and Tiger Boy, winner of the South Asia Book Award. Born in Kolkata, India, Perkins immigrated to the United States as a child and has published with major houses including Penguin Random House, Charlesbridge, Candlewick, and Little, Brown. Her newest book for adults, Just Making: A Guide for Compassionate Creatives, encourages artists to persist with both tenderness and tenacity. She speaks widely at schools, libraries, and conferences. More at mitaliperkins.com. Show Notes Perkins describes the heart of Just Making as born from nearly giving up on the creative life during the pandemic. Creativity, tenderness, and tenacity “I was very, very close myself to giving up on the creative life.” Just Making: a survival guide for writers and artists facing rejection, discouragement, and the sense that their work doesn't matter The struggles of the creative life Perkins speaks candidly about rejection, failed manuscripts, and the long twelve-year gap between her first and second published books. “You end up looking at the exterior packaging—my career looks amazing on social media—but inside it's pride, vainglory, rejections, bad reviews.” Practices such as finding “third spaces” and championing one's own work sustain her through rejection. Childhood, immigration, and storytelling Born in Kolkata, India, Perkins immigrated to New York at age seven. She calls herself a “feral reader,” devouring fourteen hundred novels in four years as a child “Stories widened my heart, they widened my mind, they gave me a sense of calling that I was not just here for myself.” Obstacles and motivation during her upbringing as the daughter of refugees Encountering faith through story Growing up in a Hindu home and finding coming to Christ in college Through reading the Gospels and C.S. Lewis, she encountered Jesus as “the true story behind all the stories.” Conversion and baptism while a student at Stanford Writing, justice, and flourishing “We can't put on our faith like lace and bows; it has to be in the bones of the story.” Fiction that tackles themes of poverty, gender, courage, and flourishing Justice is defined not only as righting wrongs but fostering shalom—wholeness and human flourishing. Publishing industry and perseverance Perkins recounts the twelve-year struggle to publish her second book, revising manuscripts dozens of times. “It was twelve years between my first book and my second book.” Tenacity grounded in prayer and a sense of God's invitation: “I've got the heavy yoke; will you walk with me?” Moments of humiliation Perkins shares a public humiliation at a book signing where no one lined up for her book. Choosing not to leave, she pulled out her manuscript and began editing “When I feel that embarrassment, that mortification, if I can just stay and do something physical to honor my work, goodness comes pouring back.” How Rickshaw Girl was published and adapted into a film Coaching for creatives Perkins counsels Mark Labberton on his unfinished book about fear “To not write it, after hearing your passion to combat this foe of our age, would be exactly what the diabolical enemy wants us to do.” How to embrace imperfection and see writing as part of a larger communal conversation Community and the impact of children's literature Direct engagement with children in classrooms and libraries How young readers form friendships with her characters and are inspired toward justice How books like Rickshaw Girl and her forthcoming The Golden Necklace connect global justice issues with young readers' imaginations Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What are the implications of Jesus's radical ethics of love and shalom? How far are Christ followers meant to go with the compassion and witness of the gospel? Philosopher Tom Crisp (Biola University) reflects on how a powerful religious experience transformed his academic career and personal faith. Once focused on metaphysics and abstract philosophy, Crisp was confronted in 2009 by the radical compassion of Jesus in the Gospels. That moment led him toward the Catholic Worker movement, the teachings of Dorothy Day, and ultimately, deep involvement in labour and immigrant justice through Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice (CLUE). He describes participating in civil disobedience, forming solidarity with marginalized communities, and serving as a nonviolent presence in immigration courts where migrants face arrest and deportation. Through these stories, Crisp testifies to the cost and invitation of discipleship: following Jesus into the margins with courage, humility, and love. Episode Highlights “What struck me was Jesus's deep compassion, mercy, fiery concern for people in the margins. And it came to me as deeply convicting.” “I immersed myself in the writings of Dorothy Day… she's had an enormous influence on how I've come to think about what it would look like to be a Jesus follower in our context.” “I was having this very powerful sense of God's presence, feeling broken by it, feeling like I'd hit a turning point in my life.” “If Jesus really is the Jesus of the margins that I'm seeing in the Gospels, then I need to figure out how to get to the margins.” “This isn't a matter of guilt, it's invitation… we're always being invited further in.” “When you're with someone who's been separated from their children, when you're with someone who's shaking with fear… it's just a completely different thing.” “So a horrific violation of human rights is happening around us in our immigration courts, and it's happening here in Orange County.” “We are trying to be a presence of love for everybody there.” Helpful Links and Resources Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice (CLUE) Shalom Ethics: Loving Your Neighbor as Yourself, by Thomas M. Crisp The Irresistible Revolution: Living as an Ordinary Radical, by Shane Claiborne About Tom Crisp Tom Crisp is professor of philosophy at Biola University, specializing in ethics and justice. After completing his PhD at Notre Dame, Crisp shifted his academic work toward Christian ethics following a transformative religious experience in 2009. He is a community member of the Orange County Catholic Worker and active in Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice (CLUE), advocating for immigrant and labour rights through nonviolent action and accompaniment. Show Notes Religious Experience and Transformation Tom Crisp recounts his 2009 religious awakening while reading the Gospels. “Fire—my soul is blowing apart, I need to quit my job.” Realization of Jesus's “deep compassion, mercy, fiery concern for people in the margins.” Movement from abstract philosophy to Neighbour Love Command. Catholic Worker movement and Dorothy Day Influence of Shane Claiborne's The Irresistible Revolution and new monastic movement. Encounter with Dorothy Day's writings as a model of radical discipleship. Involvement with the Orange County Catholic Worker community. Attraction to Catholicism Inspired by Notre Dame liturgy and Benedictine practices. Influenced by saints like St. Francis, Maximilian Kolbe, Oscar Romero. “As I spend time in Catholic spaces, I feel the presence of this cloud of witnesses.” CLUE and Nonviolent Action History of CLUE: founded by Rev. James Lawson, trained in Gandhian nonviolence, connected to Martin Luther King Jr. Focus on labour justice and immigrant rights. Training in nonviolent presence, civil disobedience, and accompaniment. Example: shutting down LAX in a five-hundred-person protest for hotel workers. Court Observation and Migrant Accompaniment CLUE partnership with Orange County Rapid Response Network. ICE arrests of migrants who believed they had lawful parole status. “A horrific violation of human rights is happening around us in our immigration courts.” Strategy of nonviolent presence to “dramatize bureaucratic and physical violence.” Clergy presence offers spiritual authority and comfort. Judges and ICE agents sometimes allow moments of prayer or comfort before deportation. “We want to accompany migrants into this dark, dark space and be there as a source of comfort to them.” Formation and Solidarity “When you're with someone who's been separated from their children, when you're with someone who is shaking with fear … it's just a completely different thing.” Experience of humility, solidarity, and courage among migrants and workers. Philosophy, theology, and action integrated in discipleship. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“Habit eats willpower for breakfast.” As the apostle Paul says in Romans 7, we do the evil we don't want to do, and we don't do the good we want to do. Pastor and author John Ortberg joins Mark Labberton on Conversing to discuss his latest book Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn't Enough. Drawing on decades of pastoral ministry, the wisdom of the Twelve Steps, and the profound influence of Dallas Willard, Ortberg explores the limits of willpower, the gift of desperation, and the hope of genuine transformation. With humour, honesty, and depth, he reflects on why human will is insufficient, why churches struggle to embody desperation, and how communities of honesty and grace can become places of real healing. Episode Highlights “Habit eats willpower for breakfast.” “The first step is a deeply despairing step. I can't, and it feels like hell and death—and that opens people up to God.” “If you have a wimpy step one, you will have wimpy steps two through twelve.” “Desperation really is a gift.” “Failure and pain so often become helps in our meeting God.” Helpful Links and Resources Find more from John Ortberg at becomenew.com John Ortberg, Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn't Enough Dallas Willard, Renovation of the Heart Kent Dunnington, Addiction and Virtue: Beyond the Models of Disease and Choice Stephen R. Haynes, Why Can't Church Be More Like an AA Meeting? About John Ortberg John Ortberg is a pastor, speaker, and bestselling author dedicated to spiritual formation and transformation. He served as senior pastor at Menlo Church from 2003 to 2020, and has written numerous books, including The Life You've Always Wanted and Faith & Doubt. He studied at Wheaton College and Fuller Theological Seminary and has been a trustee at Fuller. His most recent book, Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn't Enough, reframes the Twelve Steps as a wisdom tradition for all seeking deeper life with God. Show Notes The Nature of Willpower and Habit John Ortberg reflects on Dallas Willard's framework for understanding persons. “Habit eats willpower for breakfast.” The human will is essential, but terrifically weak when confronting sin, ego, or deep habits. The Gift of Desperation and the Twelve Steps First step: “We admitted we were powerless.” “The first step is a deeply despairing step. I can't, and it feels like hell and death—and that opens people up to God.” Desperation becomes a gateway to spiritual power. “If you have a wimpy step one, you will have wimpy steps two through twelve.” Comparing church and AA Ortberg: “Desperation really is a gift.” The church often resists being a community of desperation. Honesty is not the same as desperation; both are needed for transformation. Why AA's structure works: fellowship plus program. “Failure and pain so often become helps in our meeting God.” Storytelling and Transformation Testimonies and stories at the center of AA's power. Why narrative makes meaning for human life. “Story is the essential unit of meaning for personhood.” Spiritual Practices and Confession Step 5: “Confess to God, ourselves, and one other person the exact nature of our wrongs.” John recalls confessing to a close friend: “John, I love you more right now than I've ever loved you before.” The liberating power of being fully known and loved. Addiction, Sin, and Disease The debate: is addiction a disease, a habitus, or sin? Disease language reduces shame but risks erasing agency. The overlap of sin, brokenness, and habit. The challenge of shame, judgment, and superiority in church contexts. Fellowship and Program “If you have program but not fellowship, you're dead. If you have fellowship but not program, there is no hope.” AA as a model for church life: communal honesty plus concrete practices. The gospel calls for grace-filled action, not passivity. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Who are the black evangelicals? How has contemporary evangelicalism reckoned with racial justice? Theologian Vincent Bacote joins Mark Labberton to discuss Black + Evangelical, a new documentary exploring the in-between experience of black Christians in white evangelical spaces. Bacote—professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics—shares his personal faith journey, early formation in the Navigators, growing racial consciousness, and decades-long engagement with questions of race, theology, and evangelical identity. Together, they work through the tensions, challenges, and possibilities for a more truthful and hopeful evangelical witness. Episode Highlights “The goal of the documentary is not to be a kind of hit piece about the evangelical movement. It's to tell the story of the church.” “To be for Black people is not to be against somebody else.” – Tom Skinner “I couldn't understand why the Bible people weren't leading the way on questions of race.” “Participation in evangelical spaces can't mean leaving part of yourself outside.” “Realism allows you to have honesty, but also remember the good news is the greatest news of all.” “God wants all of us—our whole selves—not a muted version.” Helpful Links and Resources Black + Evangelical Documentary (Christianity Today) Black + Evangelical Documentary Trailer The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life by Vincent Bacote Reckoning with Race and Performing the Good News by Vincent Bacote Breaking Down Walls by Raleigh Washington & Glen Kehrein Tom Skinner's Urbana 1970 Address (Full Audio) *The Color of Compromise* by Jemar Tisby About Vincent Bacote Vincent Bacote is professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics. He is the author of several books, including The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life and Reckoning with Race and Performing the Good News: In Search of a Better Evangelical Theology. His research and teaching address public theology, ethics, and the intersection of race and evangelical identity. Bacote is a widely cited commentator and a frequent voice in conversations about Christian faithfulness in public life. Show Notes Mark Labberton welcomes Vincent Bacote, professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics. Introduction to the Black + Evangelical documentary, a project Bacote helped conceive and produce. Bacote's upbringing at Shiloh Baptist Church of Glenarden, Maryland—unknowingly part of the Progressive National Baptist Convention. Conversion experience around age ten, preceded by years of genuine faith. College years at the Citadel; involvement in the Navigators campus ministry. Influence of a summer training program in Memphis focused on African American ministry. Early exposure to evangelical culture through radio preachers like Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, John MacArthur, and James Dobson. Initial tensions over the lack of evangelical engagement on issues of race. Graduate studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School with the initial goal of becoming a pastor. Encounter with Raleigh Washington and Glen Kehrein's Breaking Down Walls, grounding racial reconciliation in Ephesians 2. Observations of the scarcity of black theologians in evangelical seminaries. 1993 Geneva College conference on black evangelicals—learning from leaders like Bill Pannell, Tom Skinner, Tony Evans, Carl Ellis, and Eugene Rivers. Writing an editorial titled “Black and Evangelical: An Uneasy Tension?” for the student paper at Trinity. Realization that evangelicalism is both a biblical and socio-cultural movement with contextual blind spots. Arrival at Wheaton College in 2000 with a focus on public theology and ethics beyond race alone. Genesis of the Black + Evangelical project at a 2008 Fuller Seminary gathering with Ron Potter. Partnership with Christianity Today and filmmaker Dan Long to shape the documentary. Filming over forty hours of interviews with twenty-four participants, distilled into a ninety-four-minute film. Mark Labberton highlights Tom Skinner's impact and his “Blackface” critique of white evangelicalism. Bacote reflects on his “racially optimistic” early years and growing awareness of systemic realities. Analysis of the Promise Keepers movement and the need for sustained relational work beyond large gatherings. Challenges in building genuine multiethnic churches versus surface-level diversity. The documentary's aim: to tell the church's story, honour lived experiences, and inspire commitment to mission. Bacote's “four stages” for minorities in evangelical institutions: delight, dissonance, distress, and decision. Emphasis on “sober hope”—honesty about pain while holding onto the good news. The gospel's call to bring one's full self into the life of the church. Closing encouragement to watch and share Black + Evangelical as a story worth hearing for the whole church. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Conservationist and environmental advocate Ben Lowe discusses our ecological crisis, the role of Christian faith and spirituality, and how churches can respond with hope, action, and theological depth. He joins Mark Labberton for a grounded conversation on the intersection of faith, climate change, and the church's role in ecological justice. As Executive Director of A Rocha USA, Lowe brings over two decades of experience in environmental biology, ethics, and faith-based conservation to explore how Christians can engage meaningfully with environmental crises. They moves from scientific clarity about climate urgency to the theological blind spots that have hindered the Christian response. Together, they explore how churches across the U.S. and beyond are reclaiming creation care—not as a political issue, but as a form of discipleship and worship. With stories ranging from urban stream cleanups to coral reef restoration, Lowe emphasizes small, local, relational efforts that respond to God's ongoing work in the world. At the heart of the conversation lies a call to moral will, theological clarity, and faithfulness in the face of ecological grief. Episode Highlights “The world is good—but it's groaning.” “Small does not mean insignificant… We have the solutions. The problem is not our technical ability—it's our moral and political will.” Learn More about A Rocha Visit arocha.us for more information. About Ben Lowe Rev. Dr. Ben Lowe is Executive Director of A Rocha USA, a Christian conservation organization engaged in ecological discipleship, community-based restoration, and climate advocacy across the U.S. and globally. He holds a Ph.D. in interdisciplinary ecology from the University of Florida and a B.S. in Environmental Biology from Wheaton College. Ben has spent over two decades working at the intersection of faith, science, and environmental justice, and is passionate about equipping churches to participate in God's restoration of creation. Since his first encounter with A Rocha as a Wheaton student in 2003, Ben has served on A Rocha staff teams and boards, nationally and internationally, most recently as Deputy Executive Director of A Rocha International. Ben's training as a scientist and a minister inform his leadership and development of A Rocha USA's national strategy and team. Originally from Singapore, Ben was the founding national organizer of Young Evangelicals for Climate Action and has served on the boards of A Rocha USA, A Rocha International, the Au Sable Institute, and Christians for Social Action. He is the author of multiple books and his work has been featured in media outlets including Audubon Magazine, Christianity Today, and The New York Times. He has a Bachelor of Science in Environmental Biology from Wheaton and a PhD from the University of Florida focused on the human, religious, and ethical dimensions of environmental change and conservation. Ben is based in the warm and watery state of Florida, USA, where he can often be found kayaking on the Indian River Lagoon. Show Notes Earth Day began in 1970, a pivotal moment for environmental awareness—“That means that I was a junior in high school when the world embraced this name as a way of trying to bring attention to the whole world about environmental issues.” Mark Labberton opens with concern for “the political moment that we're in… in the United States and in other places around the world.” Ben Lowe introduces the biblical framing: “This world is good, but it's also groaning.” Why Climate Action Still Matters “We don't know where we would be, were it not for Earth Day 50 years ago.” “The question is not whether we know what to do, but whether we're doing the right thing and we're doing enough of it.” “It's never too late to take action and to get engaged.” Scientific Consensus and Urgency “The science has gotten a lot more sophisticated and a lot clearer.” “We're not talking about hypothetical issues anymore. We're talking about issues that many, if not all of us, are tangibly experiencing now.” “Things are moving faster, further and at a greater scale and magnitude than we were hoping to be experiencing right now.” Oceans, Heat, and the Limits of Natural Buffers “The oceans are a huge gift to human society and they have been buffering and absorbing a lot of the heat and the carbon that we've been emitting.” “The oceans are not limitless… We are seeing signs that the oceans are warming more than they can sustain.” “Every year now we have these hurricanes that are huge in terms of their scale and the amount of water that they can suck up from these overheated oceans.” Practical Impact of Climate Change “My homeowner's insurance rates more than doubled in the last few years.” “We're just getting all these signs coming from all of our systems that are warning us that we are on a completely unsustainable path.” “The silver lining to us being the driver of so many of these problems is that we can also choose to be part of the solution.” Role of the Church in Ecological Transformation “The church can really shine a light of hope, of love of the good news that God promises for this world in the midst of all that.” “Small does not mean insignificant.” “We have the solutions we need… The problem is not our technical ability, it's our moral and political will that has been lacking.” Global Clean Energy Transition “We are in a great transition, but that transition is happening and it's sort of unstoppable.” “The question is how quickly will it happen and will we be able to move it forward quickly enough?” “Christians have a particular contribution… we can bring the moral will to help shape the decisions.” A Rocha's Global and Local Work “A Rocha is a network of Christian conservation organizations in about 25 countries around the world.” In Florida, “we're helping to work with local partners, universities, high schools, churches, to conserve the lagoon.” “In Austin, Texas… we have a lot of Spanish language programming… to help connect recent immigrants with the communities that they're living in.” Partnering with Churches for Creation Care “The cutting edge of what we're moving into now though is our work with churches.” “Research… are showing that there is a shift happening with more and more Christians in churches becoming aware of the problems in God's world.” “Now we have more and more people coming to us, so much that we're growing, but we're not growing fast enough and we have to turn some people away.” Localized Action and Practical Partnerships “We launched a cohort of Vineyard USA churches… to support Vineyard congregations that want to get more involved.” “We walk them through a process of discerning… the ways that God might be inviting them to participate in what God's already doing.” “We're working with a church on Oahu in Hawaii that bought a defunct golf course… we're working together to help restore the native habitat.” Creation Care as Worship and Witness “We see this as being in God's hands… and us as playing a faithful role in responding to what God is doing.” “What would a follower of Jesus do in this situation?” “Everything that we do to care for creation… the offering itself is one that we direct to God as the creator.” Theological Reformation, Not Innovation “It's not theological change so much as it's theological reformation. This is orthodoxy.” “We don't see this work as of our own initiative. What we see ourselves doing is responding to what God is already doing.” End Times Theology and Ecological Responsibility “We don't treat anything else in life that way. We don't treat our bodies that way. We don't treat our children that way.” “It has been biblically Orthodox from the very beginning to care for God's world.” “It's not because we're Christian, it's because we've not been Christian enough.” Political Identity vs. Christian Witness “We see these issues first and foremost through our political lenses instead of through our theological biblical Christian lenses.” “These issues transcend any particular political ideology or party.” “They're moral issues, they're faith issues, they're spiritual issues, and for us, they're an integral matter of our Christian discipleship and witness.” How A Rocha Helps Churches Avoid Partisan Pitfalls “We try to say, all right, what does God call us to do as people, as his image bearers in the world today?” “Let's do a stream cleanup together.” “You kind of learn as you go… and before you know it, you look back and you realize, oh gosh, how far I have come.” Discipleship and Environmental Stewardship “The longer I'm in this work, the more I'm learning how to care for creation and help others do the same.” “The closer I grow to Christ too, and the more I find myself being conformed into what the Bible calls us to be.” “It's not always an easy journey, but it's a really good and life-giving and sanctifying journey.” Mark's Personal Reflection: Replanting His Garden “It has utterly changed the way that I now look out the kitchen window.” “Just that small change has given me a better sense of life, a better sense of creation… a better sense of the importance of having a world that you can meditate on.” Ben Lowe's Formative Experiences in Singapore and the Black Hills “We'd sort through the catch with them and they'd give us the things that they couldn't sell.” “Being able to step out into a national forest and breathe the air… reminds me that… there is still so much good in this world worth protecting.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Introducing Credible Witness, a new podcast produced by Mark Labberton and the Rethinking Church Initiative. In this episode of Conversing, Mark features the full premiere episode of Credible Witness, and is joined by host Nikki Toyama-Szeto and historian Jemar Tisby. Exploring how Christian witness to the gospel of Christ has become compromised—and what might restore its credibility. Reflecting on five years of candid, challenging conversation among diverse Christian leaders during the wake of George Floyd's murder and rising Christian nationalism, the three discuss the soul-searching, disillusionment, and hope that emerged. Together, they examine the cultural fractures, theological tensions, and moral failures that have pushed many to extremes, elevating strident voices as an increased number of people to leave the church. They articulate the mission and vision of Credible Witness, testify to a persistent hope in Jesus and the power of honest community, face painful truths, and imagine a church that more truly reflects the love, justice, and mercy of God. Key Moments “We absolutely get that… but we're still on board with Jesus. And Jesus has always been with us and hasn't left us.” “This isn't about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus.” “We've got a better story to tell.” “It was the church that was putting the church at risk.” “The church has a reputation in the United States… and not a good one by and large.” About the Guests Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness, and is executive director of Christians for Social Action, equipping the church to pursue justice and follow Jesus in the tension of our times. Jemar Tisby is the author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism, and founder of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective. He is the host of Pass the Mic. Show Notes “This isn't about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus.” —Jemar Tisby Nikki introduces Credible Witness as a space for honest stories of faith amid moral complexity and social tension Mark recalls the origins of the conversation in summer 2020: COVID-19, George Floyd, church division, and racial injustice Jemar Tisby clarifies the mission for imagining a more credible Christian witness Nikki reflects on trust-building in a space that welcomed “tricky truths” and honesty without pretense The group's five-year journey begins as a short experiment but grows into a lasting community of deep discernment “We weren't trying to replicate any harm.” —Jemar Tisby The group names white Christian nationalism and silence on injustice as threats to the church's credibility Ephesians 2 and the power of “coming together of the unlikes” as a witness to the resurrection “It was the church that was putting the gospel at risk.” —Mark Labberton Nikki explains how church neutrality began to speak volumes: “Choosing silence was actually a loud voice.” Discussion on the failure of integrity: “Too many things in isolation” eroded credibility Jemar highlights story as central to public theology: “We've got a better story to tell.” The group wrestles with algorithmic distortion and toxic digital narratives shaping Christian identity “Not just message, but embodiment”: The church's credibility depends on lived ethics, not just theological claims Mark emphasizes self-examination: “Are we credible?” Dissonance and disagreement as gifts: “What kept people in the room was the gift of dissonance.” —Nikki Toyama-Szeto Jemar recalls moments of tension over how to prioritize justice issues while remaining unified in Christ The group's diversity as a deliberate strategy: different traditions, backgrounds, and responsibilities within the church Nikki names divine timing: the conversation is more urgent now than when it began “We're not all supposed to be the same... That's how everything gets covered.” —Jemar Tisby Mark frames the church's failure as internal implosion—not external threat “Why is the church seemingly so unchanged?” —Mark Labberton Nikki describes how marginalized voices carry wisdom for the way forward Jemar articulates the podcast's goal: a mirror and a window for listeners to see both themselves and the larger church Nikki closes with an invitation to slow down and listen generously: “Pull up a chair...” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

In the aftermath of the devastating Eaton Canyon Fire in Altadena, California, three Pasadena community leaders—Mayra Macedo-Nolan, Pastor Kerwin Manning, and Megan Katerjian—join host Mark Labberton for a sobering and hopeful conversation on what it takes to rebuild homes, neighborhoods, and lives. Together they discuss their personal losses, the long-term trauma facing their neighbors, the racial and economic disparities exposed by disaster, and how the Church is rising to meet these challenges with grit, grace, and faith. Their stories illuminate how a community holds fast when the media leaves, when vultures circle, and when the work is just beginning. This is a conversation about sacred presence, practical resilience, and the enduring witness of faithful service—even in the ashes. Mayra Macedo-Nolan is Executive Director of the Clergy Community Coalition of Greater Pasadena Kerwin Manning is Senior Pastor of Pasadena Church Megan Katerjian is CEO of Door of Hope Ministries Helpful Links and Resources Door of Hope Pasadena – Family homelessness intervention and fire assistance program Pasadena Church – Kerwin Manning's congregation and relief center Clergy Community Coalition of Greater Pasadena – Mayra Macedo-Nolan's organization supporting pastors and churches Isaiah 61:3 – “Beauty for ashes” verse referenced by Kerwin Andre Crouch – “Soon and Very Soon” – Gospel anthem of hope quoted by Pastor Kerwin Show Notes CCC (Clergy Community Coalition) rapidly pivoted to virtual meetings the morning after hurricane-force winds and fire struck Altadena. “We moved it to virtual… and then we had no idea what was gonna happen that evening and overnight.” —Mayra Macedo-Nolan After the fire started, 56 participants gathered online, including city leaders and faith-based partners, forming a core response network. “Everybody wanted to be together… especially in a crisis like this.” —Mayra Pastor Kerwin and his wife Madeline evacuated with almost no notice after hearing the sheriff outside their door. “We, Madeline and I, like so many others, were fleeing for our lives.” —Kerwin Manning For weeks, they didn't know whether their home was still standing; the priority became their church and community. “We didn't know if our home was standing… we were more concerned about our church, our community.” —Kerwin Pasadena Church began relief work immediately—even before confirming their own housing stability. “This is the first interview or anything I've done online back in my home.” —Kerwin Door of Hope's CEO evacuated with her children and lost her home; she quickly organized shelter responses for others. “I found out that my house had been entirely destroyed.” —Megan Katerjian Within 10 days, Door of Hope launched a formal housing assistance program for fire-affected families. “Door of Hope had launched what we call the Eaton Fire Housing Assistance Program.” —Megan The CCC became a spiritual and logistical backbone for Altadena's recovery, activating two decades of community-building. “This was a time that it was really important for the local clergy to be in conversation with one another.” —Mayra Pasadena Church became a distribution hub, serving as far east as any organization in the city. “We wore our church members out.” —Kerwin Over two months, the church distributed daily essentials from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m., shifting to a long-term weekly rhythm. “We thought we would do it for a couple of weeks… we were doing it every day… for about two months straight.” —Kerwin “We might run out of water, we might run out of toothpaste, but we refuse to run out of smiles and kindness.” —Kerwin Altadena's west side—long a haven for Black and Brown families—suffered the worst structural damage and displacement. “Altadena had been a haven really for Black and Brown families who couldn't purchase homes anywhere.” —Mayra Many impacted residents were informal renters or multigenerational households without clear legal housing claims. “These are the stories of people… for whom there is no path back to Altadena anytime soon.” —Megan 11 churches were lost or damaged, including small and under-resourced congregations still unsure about rebuilding. “We lost 10 houses of worship, and one was partially burned… essentially 11.” —Mayra Local churches served both members and neighbors regardless of formal affiliation, often the first to show up with aid. “We don't do any of this work alone.” —Megan CCC supports 100+ churches across Pasadena with infrastructure, grants, emotional care, and community strategy. “We want them to be okay… and then as they serve their church members and the neighbors surrounding their church.” —Mayra Door of Hope offered security deposits, rent, emergency shelter, tool replacement, and even vehicles to affected families. “Beauty for ashes” “We just have to do more of it.” —Megan Volunteers gave out handwritten cards from kids across the country; some were shared at distribution events. “I've got a box full of cards from kids… just like it's going to be okay. We're praying for it.” —Kerwin A guiding pastoral metaphor: vultures circling a wounded deer, and the need to protect the vulnerable from predation. “The vultures were circling… and I covered the deer… and the vultures left.” —Kerwin “The needs have not slowed. …  finances always follow just heart and compassion and awareness.” —Megan “You learn so much in the middle of crisis. One of the things that crisis does is it confirms character and you realize like what people are made of when you're going through something.” “Until. Until the need is gone, until we don't have to do it anymore.” —Kerwin The immigrant community faces a second “fire”—ICE raids and deportation threats layered atop housing loss. “The intersection of those… the two fires, the fire that we didn't know we were gonna have, and the fire that we knew was coming.” —Mayra CCC pastors protested ICE actions together, maintaining peace through community presence and music. “The pastors were there… and then it's just… it's a sacred party.” —Mayra Latino cultural traditions of protest, grief, and celebration shaped a healing, communal public presence. “We cry and we're gonna probably celebrate and eat food and dance together.” —Mayra Local leaders are pushing back against a 10-year recovery timeline with a goal of rebuilding within 3–5 years. “We reject that. She said, three to five years, that's what we're gonna push for.” —Mayra Community grief deepened when the first burned lot was sold; hope emerged again when the first rebuilding began. “There they go… it's gonna start selling.” / “We think there was… this collective celebration.” —Mayra “Soon and very soon we're gonna see the King.” —Kerwin Kerwin invoked Isaiah 61:3: “Beauty will rise” as a spiritual theme for their church's recovery ministry. “We believe that we're able to continue to do what we're doing knowing that, trusting that beauty's gonna rise.” —Kerwin The phrase “Altadena is not for sale” became a rallying cry—although some elders opted to relocate for peace. “It's up to you. Our prayer is that more people will want to stay than leave.” —Kerwin Ongoing challenges include zoning delays, state and county coordination issues, and political friction at the national level. “The church has always been a vital provider of resources, critical social services and resources in communities on an ongoing basis in normal time.” —Mayra ”The greatest sense that you get from being there is people are together. There's a sense of unity and community protection that is very palpable.” A sacred party Resilience and God's presence and strength “It feels like our president doesn't like us… our governor… whatever they've got going on impacts us.” —Kerwin “The church… is always a vital provider… of resources, critical social services… in normal time.” —Mayra About the Guests Mayra Macedo-Nolan is Executive Director of the Clergy Community Coalition of Greater Pasadena, where she leads efforts to strengthen faith-based response to systemic inequities in housing, education, and social services. Formerly on pastoral staff at Lake Avenue Church, she's spent two decades in community leadership in Pasadena and Altadena. Pastor Kerwin Manning is Senior Pastor of Pasadena Church and a founding leader in the Clergy Community Coalition. A longtime advocate for youth and justice, he's served the Pasadena community with a heart for unity, compassion, and spiritual renewal. Megan Katerjian is CEO of Door of Hope, a Pasadena-based nonprofit serving homeless and at-risk families. With over 20 years in nonprofit leadership, Megan is also an ordained pastor with deep roots in faith-based social services and community development. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Are the best days of the church behind us? Or ahead? Kara Powell and Ray Chang join Mark Labberton to discuss Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation, co-authored with Jake Mulder. Drawing on extensive research, practical frameworks, and decades of leadership at Fuller Seminary and the TENx10 Collaboration, Powell and Chang map a path forward for the church—one rooted in relational discipleship, kingdom diversity, and tangible neighbour love. In a moment marked by disaffiliation, disillusionment, and institutional fragility, they offer a hopeful vision: churches that are brave enough to listen deeply, lead adaptively, and partner with the next generation in mission. This conversation unpacks their “Here to There” framework, the role of human agency in ecclesial change, and why honouring young people isn't pandering—it's planting seeds for the future of faith. Episode Highlights “We believe the best days of the church are ahead.” “Leadership begins with listening.” “Unless strategy emerges out of culture, or unless the culture is changed, it's really hard to lead.” “Everything rises when we focus on young people.” “Agency is the intersection of knowing, being, and doing.” Helpful Resources and Links Future-Focused Church by Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Ray Chang (InterVarsity Press) Fuller Youth Institute—Research and innovation for youth ministry TENx10 Collaboration—Movement to help faith matter more for ten million young people over ten years Asian American Christian Collaborative—Equipping Asian American Christians for faithful public witness ”Churches and Change: Adaptive Leadership”—Heifetz on adaptive vs. technical change (Harvard Business Review) Rethinking Church in the 21st Century (Fuller Seminary)—Ongoing work in contextual theology and church innovation About Kara Powell Kara Powell is the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Seminary, executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, and founder of the TENx10 Collaboration. A leading voice in youth ministry and church innovation, she is author or co-author of numerous books including Sticky Faith, Growing Young, and 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager. She is co-author of Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation. About Ray Chang Ray Chang is executive director of the TENx10 Collaboration and president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative. A pastor, activist, and writer, Ray's work focuses on racial justice, next-gen discipleship, and building churches that reflect the diversity of God's kingdom. He is co-author of Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation. Show Notes Kara Powell is chief of leadership formation at Fuller Seminary and executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute Ray Chang is executive director of the TENx10 Collaboration and president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative Future-Focused Church offers a framework for adaptive change, grounded in Scripture, research, and practical leadership “Leadership begins with listening”—Kara shares the importance of appreciative inquiry and asking youth what matters to them Ray describes today's church as “a church actively trying to define and redefine itself in tumultuous and complex times” Simple but powerful framework: Here to There—understanding where we are and where God is calling us next Three checkpoints of a future-focused church: relationally discipling young people, modelling kingdom diversity, tangibly loving our neighbours “Everything rises when we focus on young people”—churches flourish when the next generation is centered Data shows only one in three senior pastors rank young people among their top five priorities Kara: “I wish the problem was that young people were overly prioritized—sadly, it's the opposite” Church innovation isn't just strategic, it's adaptive: “Culture eats strategy for breakfast.” Ray explains why Covid exposed the difference between technical and adaptive change in the church Kara: “We overestimate what we can accomplish in one year and underestimate what we can do in three to five.” Biblical foundations explored—Paul's epistles blend being and doing; Galatians 5 offers a model of fruitful action Human agency as divine invitation—Ray: “God invites us to partner in God's work for the flourishing of humanity” Kara's church story: youth sat in the front, fully engaged—“They prioritized us” Simple action steps from churches include showing up to youth events and publicly celebrating young people's milestones Mark Labberton challenges the idea of “pandering” to youth—Kara responds with data and theological reflection Ray reflects on the complex dynamics in immigrant and second-gen Asian American churches—“placelessness” and a search for belonging Importance of community: following Jesus together, across generations, cultures, and neighbourhoods Kara reframes giving: “Young people want to give to people and to purpose—not to perpetuate programs” “Culture is where values are held; unless strategy aligns with culture, it will be resisted”—Ray on organizational change Intergenerational relationships are critical—older adults model faith and love through presence and commitment The book offers not just direction but formation: process, practice, and people matter as much as the goal “If there's ever a moment to care about the church—and young people—it's now.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

With a B3 organ, a prophetic imagination, and a heart broken wide open by grace, gospel music legend Andraé Crouch (1942–2015) left an indelible mark on modern Christian worship music. In this episode, Stephen Newby and Robert Darden offer a sweeping yet intimate exploration of his life, spiritual vision, and genre-defining genius. Together with Mark Labberton, they discuss their new biography, Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. Through laughter, lament, and lyrical memory, Newby and Darden—both scholars at Baylor University and coauthors of the first serious biography of Crouch—share stories of discovering his music, the theological and cultural forces that shaped it, and why his legacy matters now more than ever. They offer insights into modern musical history, spiritual reflection, and cultural analysis, inviting us into the soul of a man who helped bring modern gospel into being. Episode Highlights “Musical genius is where observation, curiosity, imagination, and humility are baked in the oven.” “He was always tracking what was going on in the room and in his heart. He understood the cues, clues, and codes of what God was doing.” “Andre felt it was important that the music was just as inspired as the lyrics. It was total praise.” “'Soon and Very Soon' is an ancient future song—we have to keep singing it, especially now.” “Andraé burned out a lot of musicians—but all of them adore him to this day.” Helpful Links and Resources Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch by Stephen Newby and Robert Darden (Penn State University Press) Black Gospel Music Preservation Project (Baylor University) “Jesus is the Answer,” by Andraé Crouch “Through It All,” by Andraé Crouch “Soon and Very Soon” **by Andraé Crouch People Get Ready!: A New History of Black Gospel Music by Robert Darden About Stephen Newby Stephen Michael Newby is a composer, conductor, and scholar. He serves as the Lev H. Prichard III Endowed Chair in the Study of Black Worship at Baylor University and is a professor of music in the Baylor School of Music. A widely recognized expert on gospel, jazz, and Black sacred music, he is also affiliated with the Black Gospel Music Preservation Project as an ambassador and collaborator. He is co-author of Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. About Robert Darden Robert F. Darden is Emeritus Professor of Journalism at Baylor University and founder of the Black Gospel Music Preservation Project. A former gospel music editor at Billboard magazine, Darden is the author of numerous books on gospel music history, including People Get Ready: A New History of Black Gospel Music and Nothing But Love in God's Water. He is co-author of Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. Show Notes Andraé Crouch called the “father of contemporary modern gospel” for his groundbreaking influence on the genre Guest Stephen Newby holds the Lev H. Pritchard III Chair in Black Worship and Music at Baylor University Guest Robert Darden is emeritus professor of journalism at Baylor and founder of the Black Gospel Music Preservation Project Labberton celebrates the book's narrative, musical, and sociocultural scope Crouch grew up in a Pentecostal context that encouraged musical exploration and spiritual improvisation Gospel rooted in KoGIC (Church of God in Christ) tradition, blending Beale Street sounds with evangelical fervor Darden describes Crouch's early music as “jazz, pop... but wait, it is gospel—they're singing about Jesus” Crouch and his sister Sandra composed “Jesus Is the Answer,” considered the first modern praise and worship song The book includes more than 200 interviews from gospel musicians, friends, and collaborators Crouch read the room and followed the Spirit—every performance was improvisational, responsive, alive “Through It All” composed after the heartbreak of a failed relationship; the grief birthed one of his most lasting songs Gospel music as lament and praise: “We hear the pain, we hear the resolve, we hear the lament turning to praise” Crouch's “Take Me Back” begins with Billy Preston on B3 organ—“He hasn't forgotten the church,” says Newby Earth, Wind & Fire, Motown, and classical influences shaped Crouch's orchestration and arrangements Darden: “He wanted the music to sound as good as the words. It was obsessive—but it was for God.” Andre's collaboration with producer/drummer Bill Maxwell led to a string of gospel albums with unmatched quality “We are going to see the King”: the timeless hope of “Soon and Very Soon” rooted in the Black spiritual tradition Crouch's music was not only groundbreaking—it was pastoral, prophetic, and profoundly personal Evangelistic to his dying breath, Crouch witnessed to hospital staff and janitors alike The book's subtitle “Transformative Music and Ministry” is more than academic—it's biographical theology Newby and Darden's friendship mirrors Crouch and Maxwell's cross-cultural collaboration Soon and Very Soon offers readers a chance to read with phone in hand—listening and learning simultaneously “Jesus is the answer” remains a musical and theological call across generations Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Religious liberty is a topic that is always worth the time to think about and talk about because the concept is a uniquely American contribution to the history of western civilization. Also, religious liberty is a uniquely Baptist contribution to the history of the American experiment. We know historically there is a give and take in the relationship between church and state and we are forever trying to assess in particular instances exactly how that relationship should play out. Right now, there are shifts being made by the United States Supreme Court and so, the proper understanding of government and organized religion is once again a topic worth examining. So, let's talk about religious liberty.Andrew T. Walker, “The scandal of compromising evangelical elites,” June 9, 2025.Joseph Backholm, “The myth of secular neutrality,” June 3, 2025.Colin J. Smothers, “Fuller Seminary's untenable ‘third way',” May 30, 2025.Thaddeus Williams, “Tax money for some religions,” May 27, 2025.

In this empowering episode of Daily Influence, Gregg-Brooke Koleno welcomes Andrea Coli—Executive Director of Lead Bold, teaching pastor, and improv performer—who shares her dynamic journey of stepping into ministry leadership and embracing her voice as a woman of faith. With over 25 years of ministry experience, an MA in Theology from Fuller Seminary, and a background in improvisational comedy with The Second City, Andrea brings a rare and insightful blend of humor, wisdom, and spiritual depth. From overcoming early limitations on her leadership to guiding other female pastors through moments of transformation, Andrea opens up about how risk-taking, collaboration, and trusting one's instincts have shaped her leadership style. She also explores the challenge and beauty of “narrow influence,” encouraging listeners to embrace purposeful impact over widespread reach. If you've ever felt the tension between humility and owning your power—or you're curious about how laughter, faith, and leadership intersect—this conversation will inspire you to lead with more authenticity and courage.

During a moment of historic turbulence and Christian polarization, Trinity Forum president Cherie Harder stepped away from the political and spiritual vortex of Washington, DC, for a month-long pilgrimage on the Camino de Santiago—a.k.a. “the Camino” or “the Way.” In this episode, she reflects on the spiritual, emotional, and physical rhythms of pilgrimage as both counterpoint and counter-practice to the fracturing pressures of American civic and religious life. Together, she and Mark Labberton consider how such a posture of pilgrimage—marked by humility, presence, and receptivity—can help reshape how we understand Christian witness in a fraught and antagonistic time. Harder explores how her Camino sabbatical offered her a deeply embodied spiritual liturgy—one that grounded her leadership and personal formation after years of intense service in government and faith-based institutions. She also reflects on the internal and external catalysts that led her to walk three hundred miles across Portugal and Spain, including burnout, anxiety, and the desire to “walk things off.” What emerged was not a single epiphany but a profound reorientation: a reordering of attention, a rediscovery of joy, and a new kind of sociological imagination—one that sees neighbourliness through the eyes of a pilgrim, not a partisan. Episode Highlights “Being a pilgrim, one is a stranger in a strange land, one has no pretensions to ruling the place. … It's a different way of being in the world.” “There was a widespread belief in the importance of persuasion … a very different posture than seeking to dominate, humiliate, and pulverize.” “Every day is literally putting one foot in front of the other. And you spend each day outside—whether it's in sunshine or in rain.” “There's a pilgrim sociology that is so counter to how we interact in civic space today. … It's a different way of being in the world.” “You're tired, and there's an invitation to stop and to pray.” “I didn't have an epiphany, but what I had instead was a daily practice that fed my soul.” Helpful Links and Resources The Trinity Forum The Way (film) – a film about the Camino starring Martin Sheen Off the Road: A Modern-Day Walk Down the Pilgrim's Route into Spain by Jack Hitt Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan (Project Gutenberg) Sabbath as Resistance by Walter Brueggemann Camino de Santiago Overview – Wikipedia About Cherie Harder Cherie Harder is president of the Trinity Forum, a non-profit that curates Christian thought leadership to engage public life, spiritual formation, and the arts. She previously served in multiple leadership roles in the US government, including in the White House under President George W. Bush, and as policy director to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. A graduate of Harvard University, she is a writer, speaker, and advocate for grace-filled public discourse and thoughtful Christian engagement in civic life. Show Notes Cherie Harder is president of the Trinity Forum, a non-profit based in Washington, DC, and focused on Christian thought leadership. She previously served in the White House and as policy director for the Senate Majority Leader. Harder reflects on how leadership now requires “counterforce just to stay in the same place.” She critiques the rise of “performative belligerence” in both civic and Christian life. “There's a premium placed on humiliating and deeply personally insulting the other side—and somehow that's seen as strength.” She contrasts past politics, which valued persuasion, with today's polarization, which valorizes domination. “Persuasion takes others seriously. It assumes they're reasonable and open.” The Camino de Santiago and pilgrimage Harder walked over three hundred miles, from Lisbon to Santiago, along the Portuguese Camino. She frames pilgrimage as an act of spiritual resistance against anxiety, burnout, and cultural chaos. “I need to find a way to walk this off.” The daily rhythm of the Camino offered physical and spiritual rest: wake, walk, eat, reflect, rest, repeat. “Every day was the opportunity to just move, to see, to attend to what was in front of me.” She was struck by the liturgical nature of walking: “There's no perfect walk, but you have to start.” Each step became a form of prayer, an embodied spiritual practice. Embodied spiritual formation Harder calls the Camino “a liturgy of the body”—a spiritual discipline grounded in physical motion. “Being in your body every day changes you—it makes your needs visible, your limits felt, your joy more palpable.” She found that physical needs—food, rest, shelter—highlighted spiritual hungers and gratitudes. The rhythm reoriented her from leadership stress to lived dependence on grace. “I didn't have an epiphany. But what I had instead was a daily practice that fed my soul.” Spiritual renewal and rhythmic practices Harder affirms that the Camino gave her a hunger for spiritual rest she hadn't fully realized. “It showed me the deficiency was greater than I thought … I've missed this.” She explores how practices of solitude, walking, and prayer can carry over into her work. Mark Labberton proposes Sabbath-keeping as one way to embody pilgrimage back home. “We may not all get to Portugal—but we can still find a Camino in our days.” Harder is now exploring how to sustain “a rhythmic alteration of how we hold time.” Pilgrim sociology and neighbourliness Harder describes a “pilgrim sociology”—a social vision rooted in vulnerability, curiosity, humility, and shared burdens. “We're in a strange land. We're not here to rule, but to receive.” The Camino fostered solidarity through shared hardship and generosity. “You literally carry each other's burdens.” She draws a sharp contrast between the posture of a pilgrim and the posture of a combatant. “It leads to a much kinder, gentler world—because it's not a posture of domination.” Spiritual lessons from the Camino The convergence at Santiago prompted reflection on heaven: “All these people, from different paths, looking up at glory.” She was reminded of Jesus's words, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” “The Camino literally means ‘the Way.' You're relying on direction that is true.” The historic path invites pilgrims into the long, sacred story of the church. “You feel part of something bigger—millions have gone before you.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

For Christians, morality is often set by our interpretation of Jesus. In this episode, Reggie Williams reflects on the moral urgency of resistance in the face of rising nationalisms and systemic racial injustice that persists. Reggie Williams is associate professor of black theology at Saint Louis University, and author of Bonhoeffer's Black Jesus. Exploring the transformative and fraught legacy of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he draws from Bonhoeffer's encounter with black Christian faith in Harlem. He traces both the revolutionary promise and the colonial limits of Bonhoeffer's thought—ultimately offering a compelling call to face the challenge of colonialism embedded in Christian theological frameworks, and unmask and dismantle the assumptions of white Western dominance within theology. Episode Highlights “Even the most sincere and most brilliant, and even pious Christian, if we're not paying attention to the way in which we are formed, repeats the problems that he's trying to address in society.” “Our interpretation of Jesus shapes our morality as Christians.” “Hitler and Dietrich both understood their crisis as christological—just with radically different ends.” “Christ is actually present in the world in space and time—but for Bonhoeffer, that was the West. That's a problem.” “The arbiter of culture owes it to the rest of the world not to be cruel. But what if the whole project needs to be undone?” “Access for black people has always meant white loss in the white imagination. That's the virus in the body politic.” Helpful Links and Resources Bonhoeffer's Black Jesus by Reggie Williams Ethics by Dietrich Bonhoeffer The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer Just Peacemaking by Glen Stassen About Reggie L. Williams Reggie L. Williams is associate professor of black theology at Saint Louis University. A scholar of Christian social ethics, he focuses on race, religion, and justice, with a particular interest in Dietrich Bonhoeffer's theological development during his time in Harlem. Williams is the author of Bonhoeffer's Black Jesus and a leading voice on the intersections of colonialism, theology, and ethics. Show Notes Bonhoeffer's Black Jesus reframes theological ethics through the lens of Harlem's Black Church experience Reggie Williams explores how racialized interpretations of Jesus shape Christian morality Glen Stassen's just peacemaking framework helped form Williams's commitment to justice-oriented ethics Bonhoeffer's exposure to black theology in Harlem was transformative—but its disruption didn't last “The church must say something about those targeted by harmful political structures.” Bonhoeffer saw racism as a theological issue after Harlem, but still defaulted to Western Christology “Christ is located in the real world—but for Bonhoeffer, that meant colonial Europe and America” Williams critiques Bonhoeffer's failure to see Christ outside the imperial West “Behold the man”—Bonhoeffer's formulation still echoes a European epistemology of the human The human as we know it is a European philosophical construct rooted in colonial domination Bonhoeffer's Ethics critiques Nazism but still centres the West as the space of Christ's incarnation “The unified West was his answer to fascism—but it still excluded the harmed and colonized.” Even as a resister, Bonhoeffer operated within metaphysical frames of white supremacy “A reformed imperial Christianity is still imperial—we need a theological break, not a revision.” Bonhoeffer's Cost of Discipleship reflected troubling views on slavery—he changed over time “From 1937 to 1939 he moves from withdrawal to coup attempt—his ethics evolved.” Reggie Williams argues the theological academy still operates under Bonhoeffer's colonial presumptions “White Christian nationalism is a sacred project—whiteness floats above history as God's proxy” Racial hierarchy was created to justify economic domination, not the other way around “Black access is always imagined as white loss in the American imagination” The DEI backlash reflects a long pattern of retrenchment following black progress “How we treat bodies is how we treat the planet—domination replaces communion” Bonhoeffer's flaws do not erase his significance—they remind us of the need for grace and growth “He's frozen in time at thirty-nine—we don't know what he would've come to see had he lived.” Mark Labberton calls the current moment a five-alarm fire requiring voices like Williams's “We are at the precipice of the future all over again—the old crisis is still with us.” The church's complicity in empire must be confronted to recover the radical gospel of Jesus The moral imagination of the church must be unshackled from whiteness, ownership, and dominance Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“More of the church is committed to their immigrant neighbours than the media or politicians would like the public to believe.” (Myal Green, from the episode) Myal Greene (president and CEO of World Relief) joins host Mark Labberton to discuss the global humanitarian crises, refugee resettlement, and the church's responsibility to respond with courage and compassion. From Rwanda's post-genocide reconciliation following 1994 to the 2025 dismantling of humanitarian aid and refugee programs in the US, Greene shares how his personal faith journey fuels his leadership amid historic humanitarian upheaval. Rooted in Scripture and the global moral witness of the church, Greene challenges listeners to imagine a more faithful Christian response to suffering—one that refuses to turn away from the world's most vulnerable. Despite the current political polarization and rising fragility of moral consensus, Greene calls on the church to step into its biblical role: speaking truth to power, welcoming the stranger, standing with the oppressed, and embodying the love of Christ in tangible, courageous ways. Episode Highlights “Inherently, reconciliation of people who have done the worst things imaginable to you is not a human thing.” “To truly be a follower of Christ, you can't be completely for a politician or completely for a political party.” “What we've seen is that more of the church is committed to their immigrant neighbours than the media or politicians would like the public to believe.” “The challenge for pastors is: How do I talk about this issue without losing my job or splitting my congregation?” “If we're failing to define our neighbour expansively—as Christ did—we're always going to get it wrong.” Helpful Links and Resources World Relief Open Doors World Watch List 2025 2024 Lifeway Research on Evangelicals & Immigration PEPFAR Program – US Department of State National Association of Evangelicals Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, by Ron Sider Good News About Injustice, by Gary Haugen Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers About Myal Greene Myal Greene has a deep desire to see churches worldwide equipped, empowered, and engaged in meeting the needs of vulnerable families in their communities. In 2021, he became president and CEO after serving for fourteen years with the organization. While living in Rwanda for eight years, he developed World Relief's innovative church-based programming model that is currently used in nine countries. He also spent six years in leadership roles within the international programs division. He has previous experience working with the US government. He holds a BS in finance from Lehigh University and an MA from Fuller Theological Seminary in global leadership. He and his wife Sharon have three children. Show Notes Myal Greene's call to faith-rooted leadership in alleviating poverty Greene's path from Capitol Hill to World Relief, shaped by his conversion in his twenties and a deepening conviction about God's heart for the poor “God was working in me and instilling a deep understanding of his heart for the poor.” Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, by Ron Sider Good News About Injustice, by Gary Haugen Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers Psalm 31:7–8: “I'll be glad and rejoice for you have seen my troubles and you've seen the affliction of my soul, but you've not turned me over to the enemy. You've set me in a safe place.” “ Not only will God transform your life, but what it means to actually have experienced that and to feel that and to make that a very real personal experience.” 2007 in Rwanda Rwanda's one-hundred-day memorial period for the 1994 genocide “The effects of the genocide were always there. You wouldn't be able to see it, but it was always there.” Gacaca courts (system of transitional justice to handle the numerous legal cases following the 1994 genocide). “People would come and talk about what happened. … The attempts at apology, the attempts at reconciliation were powerful.” ”There are so many stories from Rwanda of true reconciliation where people have forgiven the people who've killed their family members or have forgiven people who've done terrible things to them.” ”How did the Gachacha courts see an interweaving or not of Christian faith in the process of the acts of forgiveness?” The church's role: “The hard part and the amazing part of Rwanda is that reconciliation is deeply connected to individual cases.” “Inherently, reconciliation of people who have done the worst things imaginable to you is not a human thing.” World Relief's Legacy & Mission Founded in 1944 at Park Street Church, Boston, in response to World War II European displacement. “Feeding 180,000 people a day in Korea during the Korean War.” “We boldly engage the world's greatest crises in partnership with the church.” The global displacement crisis Over 122 million forcibly displaced people worldwide—up from under 40 million in 2007 (a fourfold increase) “A handful of the most fragile nations of the world are experiencing extreme violence, fragility, rising poverty, the effects of climate change, and people are being forced to flee and put into d desperate situations.” “The generosity of the country is not being seen at a time when people in crisis face the greatest need.” World Relief is “one of ten refugee resettlement agencies, and we have been a refugee resettlement agency partnering with the US government since 1980 to do the work of welcoming refugees who come to this country. And we've partnered with every presidential administration since Jimmy Carter to do this work and have, have done so proudly.” Trump's immigration and refugee resettlement policies Refugee resettlement has been halted since January 20, 2025—an estimated one thousand people per month left unwelcomed “At a time when people experiencing crisis are facing the greatest need, the generosity of the country is not being seen.” 120,000 refugees were welcomed in 2024. “We expected around 12,000” in 2025. “Should Christian organizations receive federal funding?” Cuts to federal humanitarian funding USAID interruptions directly affect food, health, and medical services in fragile states like Sudan, Haiti, and DRC. On PEPFAR: HIV-AIDS specific program established by George W. Bush PEPFAR: “25 million lives have been saved … now it's among the casualties.” “Have these [federal cuts to humanitarian aid] increased philanthropic giving or has philanthropic giving dropped almost as a mirror of the government policy change?” Church response and misconceptions How should we manage uncertainty? When to use one's voice to speak truth to power? “Polling shows evangelicals overwhelmingly support refugee resettlement—even Trump voters.” “Over 70 percent of evangelicals believe the US has a moral responsibility to welcome refugees to this country. Sixty-eight percent of of evangelicals voted for Trump agree with that statement as well.” Lifeway Research found only 9 percent of evangelicals cite the Bible or their pastor as their main source on immigration. “It would sit uncomfortably to any pastor if that were true about any other major issue.” “Pastors find themselves in this difficult place where they're trying to figure out, ‘How do I talk about this issue without losing my job and splitting my congregation?'” ”The dissonance between the way the press represents evangelical opinions about immigration” “Whether the church's voice has enough authority to be able to actually affect people's real time decisions about how they live in the world” “To be a truly a follower of Christ, you can't be completely for a politician or completely for a political party because then you put that ahead of your faith in Christ.” “You have to be able to have that freedom to disagree with the leader or the party.” “A dog with a bone in his mouth can't bark. … I think that that's where we find ourself as a church right now. We want certain victories through political means, and we're willing to sacrifice our moral authority in order to get those. And I think that that's, that's a very dangerous place to be in as a church.” How Lifeway Research approaches their understanding of “evangelical Christian” “What is the authority of the church, and how is it exercising or failing to exercise its voice right now?” Hope for a compassionate church “The real movement happens when the church unites and uses its voice.” “One in twelve Christians in America will either be deported or live with someone who is subject to deportation.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Raymond Chang—pastor, writer, and Executive Director of the TENx10 Collaboration at Fuller Seminary. As co-author of Future Focused Church, Raymond shares a hopeful, grounded vision for how churches can embrace change, cultivate culture, and lead the next generation with clarity and purpose. Drawing from his experience in campus ministry, global missions, and as the president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative, Raymond offers practical wisdom on how to engage young people, make faithful decisions, and ground all change efforts in deep discipleship. The conversation touches on everything from listening well to those who resist, to why the worship service is often the worst place to initiate change. Key Themes: Why the future of the church is still bright Spiritual postures vs. spiritual practices The long, faithful work of building congregational imagination Creating culture change, not just cosmetic change Empowering transformation teams Leading with listening and honoring those who resist Why everything should be grounded in discipleship How to manage hard decisions with grace The danger of political syncretism in the church   Raymond Chang is the executive director of the TENx10 Collaboration (part of Fuller Seminary), which is a collaborative movement that is geared toward reaching ten million young people over ten years with the gospel. He is also the president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative, a pastor, and a writer. Prior to his role at Fuller, Raymond served as the associate chaplain for discipleship at Wheaton College. He has worked in the for-profit and nonprofit sectors and served in the Peace Corps in Panama. He and his wife, Jessica Min Chang, are proud parents of Sophia, and they reside in Chicago.   Mentioned Resources:

In this episode of The Biggest Table, I delve into the subject of church camp with guest Cara Meredith, a speaker, writer, and public theologian. The discussion revolves around Cara's book 'Church Camp: Bad Skits, Cry Night, and How White Evangelicalism Betrayed a Generation,' examining the complex nature of church camps. Cara emphasizes the importance of holding both the positive and negative aspects of camp life, discussing the formative experiences alongside the theological and social harms encountered. The conversation provides insights into maintaining nuanced views, fostering dialogue with children about their experiences, and imagining better ways to cultivate genuine spiritual growth and inclusivity in camp environments.A sought-after speaker, writer, and public theologian, Cara Meredith is the author of Church Camp: Bad Skits, Cry Night, and How White Evangelicalism Betrayed a Generation and The Color of Life: A Journey Toward Love and Racial Justice. She has been featured in national media outlets such as The Oregonian, The New York Times, The Living Church, The Christian Century, and Baptist News Global, among others. Passionate about justice, spirituality, and storytelling alike, Cara holds a master of theology from Fuller Seminary and is a postulant for Holy Orders in the Episcopal Church. With a background in education and nonprofit work, Cara also works part-time as the Director of Development for Made for PAX Co, an organization dedicated to providing mentorship and vocational resources to emerging creatives, contemplatives, church leaders, and community builders of color.   When she's not working, you'll likely find her reading a book, tinkering around in the garden, or hanging out with her family. She is proud to call Oakland, California home.Follow Cara Meredith @carameredithwrites:FacebookInstagramSubstackThis episode of the Biggest Table is brought to you in part by Wild Goose Coffee. Since 2008, Wild Goose has sought to build better communities through coffee. For our listeners, Wild Goose is offering a special promotion of 20% off a one time order using the code TABLE at checkout. To learn more and to order coffee, please visit wildgoosecoffee.com. 

How to Support the Rob Skinner Podcast.  If you would like to help support my mission to multiply disciples, leaders and churches, click here:  https://www.buymeacoffee.com/robskinner   While on sabbatical I am releasing some of my most listened to episodes from my podcast.  Mike Fontenot's is one of my most popular interviews.  It was originally released as episode #7.    Please enjoy!   Who is Mike Fontenot? Mike Fontenot became a Christian in 1969.  After graduating from Louisiana State University, he went to Fuller Seminary for his Master's Degree.  He and his wife, Tess, planted a church in Sydney, Australia in the early eighties.  That church has grown to three hundred members and they have planted churches all over Australia, New Zealand, and Fiji.  At an age that many have long retired, Mike is still passionately working to advance the gospel "Down Under."  In this interview, Mike shares about his journey as a Christian, church planter and church multiplier.  He shares how he has kept his spiritual fire burning brightly for over fifty years.  Program Outline   How did you become Christians? Tell me about the growth of the churches in Australia:  How many, how big, rate of growth etc. You just celebrated 50 years in Christ, how have you managed to keep your love growing? You are a couple that is making a difference, what drives you? What was it like raising a family on the mission field? What advice would you give a person, man or woman, who wants to make a difference and live "no regrets" life? What would you tell a younger man or woman who has leadership ambitions? Do you have any regrets, anything you wish you could do over or differently? You returned to Australia at the age most people retire, why? Facing a situation of little or declining growth, what was your plan, how did you execute it? What does "High Faith & High Expectations" mean? If someone is in a situation that has been stagnant or plateaued for a while, what advice would you give them? What is transferable from your situation? Tell me about a time when you came back from a setback or failure. What advice would you give to people who are dealing with failure or discouragement? Who else do you know that is really standing out and growing?  Multiplying disciples, leaders and churches? What advice would you give me to plant ten churches in the next ten years? Tell me about something that keeps your spiritual fire and ambition burning brightly.

Reflecting on Psalm 23, Barnabas Lin reminds us of God's defense of and nearness to us in the darkest valley—the valley of the shadow of death. Barnabas Lin is a PhD candidate at Fuller Seminary. Recorded at Fuller's All-Seminary Chapel on June 4, 2025.  

What do you do when you don't know what to do? Angela Williams Gorrell joins Mark Labberton to discuss her latest book, Braving Difficult Decisions. With poignant storytelling and theological depth, Gorrell shares how this book was born out of personal crucibles and a yearning to make sense of liminal, paralyzing spaces we all encounter—individually and communally. Together they explore how discernment is not just about decision-making but also about cultivating a life of wisdom, attentiveness, and spiritual depth. Rooted in Christian tradition yet capacious across communities and contexts, Gorrell invites listeners to slow down, ask deeper questions, and consider the spiritual, emotional, and communal terrain that shapes every meaningful decision. Episode Highlights “To not make a decision is to make one as well.” “This journey is about an inward journey that says, how do I look at the state of my own soul?” “Sometimes good decisions don't feel good.” “What if the best idea isn't the good idea? And what if the data can't tell us that?” “Lady Wisdom invites us to dine—to sit at a table with God and others, and not rush the meal.” Helpful Links and Resources Braving Difficult Decisions, by Angela Williams Gorrell The Gravity of Joy, by Angela Williams Gorrell Life Worth Living course at Yale www.angelagorrell.com @angelagorrell on Instagram Show Notes The “liminal space” of facing a difficult decision, arriving at a crossroads Defining discernment as “a practice, not a single moment of choice” The book stems from her decision to leave a tenured-track faculty position, and a painful personal choice about marriage Perpetua and Felicity—early Christian martyrs Individual discernment and soul work Life Worth Living at Yale “Can I be suffering and my life still be good?” The deeply heartbreaking experience of grappling with the question of divorce “I really struggled to find a book that was like, you can be deeply Christian, deeply spiritual, and make this very difficult choice.” “You have to put them in your own heart and soul. You have to grapple with these ideas, and then you write them.” Should we avoid difficult decisions? Discerning, then acting “To not make a decision is to make one as well.” “I wanted to write a book that spoke to that liminal space where we feel paralyzed.” “Good decisions don't always feel good—they might still break your heart” Discusses difference between chronic pain and acute pain in decision-making Discernment helps identify not just what is “right,” but what leads toward peace Michaela O'Donnell and chronic pain Discernment is about “looking at the state of your own soul and becoming a steward of it” “This story that God is nurturing in the world—that story doesn't hinge on like this decision in your life.” Self-examination, and feeling alone in the decision Community-based decision-making “There are all these false binaries.” “What baggage do you have from the past? And how do you make sure that you're not seeing the present moment through the past?” Being as gracious as possible “ What is a way that we can create space to really hear from God?—to hear from each other, and to move forward in a way that we're doing change together and not to each other.” “They need to figure out something together that matters deeply.” The book offers a pathway for congregations and organizations discerning together “How do we do change with people?” Encourages communities to take time, name past wounds, and define who makes decisions Identifies the importance of setting clear expectations, timelines, and spiritual framing “Listening to everyone takes time, but it leads to deeper collective ownership.” Invites communities to ask: What values do we want to embody in this moment? “Sometimes the most valuable part of the process is the slowness.” Wisdom, complexity, and culture Decision-making in our polarized society must account for nuance, empathy, and complexity “What if the data tells us one thing, but the Spirit tells us something else?” Resist “data-driven” decisions as totalizing; discernment includes emotion, history, and spirituality. “Sometimes good decisions don't feel good, you know? Sometimes a life worth living is not about pursuing happiness.” “Lady Wisdom invites us to come and to dine at her house and to sit at a table together.” Names systemic fatigue: “Organizations optimize while their people starve.” Decision-making is affected by race, gender, trauma, context—“there is no one-size-fits-all path” Discernment as a practice, not a moment Braving Difficult Decisions includes exercises and frameworks, such as the “iceberg model” “Most big questions are like an iceberg. There's all this ice beneath the surface that you don't see. That's really the stuff that people are grappling with.” Encourages ongoing wisdom practices: surrender, self-reflection, value-alignment The book is not just a guide for one hard moment, but a long-term companion Ideal for pastors, therapists, educators, spiritual directors, and leaders About Angela Williams Gorrell Rev. Dr. Angela Williams Gorrell is an author, speaker, and consultant. Gorrell speaks and writes about finding the life worth living, joy, meaning, and purpose, and the intersection of spiritual and mental health. She is the author of Always On, The Gravity of Joy, and Braving Difficult Decisions: What to Do When You Don't Know What to Do. Angela's research has been highlighted in media sources such as the New York Times, the Washington Post, and NPR. Gorrell has taught at several schools including Yale University and Baylor University. She has provided thought leadership and consulting for numerous organizations including the US Army and the NBA. You can find her at her website www.angelagorrell.com or on instagram @angelagorrell. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Meaningful relationships are mutual. Balanced with give and take, equal influence between partners, and a vibrant dance of loving responsiveness and caring attention.Marriage and Family Therapist and professor Dr. Jessica ChenFeng is calling us toward a more justice-oriented approach to relationships and to mental health and well-being, She invites us to open-hearted and empathic perspective taking, and seeking an integrated wholeness that incorporates all of who we are—highlighting the gift of mutuality in our most intimate relationships in marriage and family life.In this conversation with Jessica ChenFeng, we discuss:The importance of integrated and whole experience of ourselves—allowing racial, gender, and cultural identities to weave together in our sense of vocation and contribution to the worldThe importance of mutuality in relationships—but particularly in marriage and family systems.The ways emotional power flows in a relationship and impacts marriage and family dynamicsThe difference between partners focusing on meeting their individual needs and caring for the health of an intimate relationshipAnd she offers a guided practical exercise to help us lovingly notice and accept our inner experience with a heart open to justice, vulnerability, and the reminder that we are beloved in the eyes of God.Episode Highlights"Systems of power harm everyone—and to live life to the full, we have to see each other fully.""I believe our move toward life to the full requires us to see the world through a third-order lens: not just family systems, but the racial, gender, and societal systems they exist within.""Mutuality means not just expressing our needs but being willing to be changed by the needs of others.""If we're not attuned to the pleasant sensations in our bodies, we miss the invitations to thrive.""Cultural norms are not God-given realities; they are social constructs we are invited to discern and transform.""Knowledge without authentic relationship keeps us from truly seeing the embodied experiences of others."Helpful Links and ResourcesCheck out the programs in Marriage & Family Therapy at Fuller School of Psychology www.fuller.edu/school-of-psychology/Fuller Asian American Center aac.fuller.edu/Socio-Emotional Relationship Therapy (SERT) OverviewCircle of Care Model ExplainedPositive Psychology and EmotionsJeanne Tsai's Research on Culture and EmotionAsian American Values Scale ReferenceRace and Trauma ResourcesJeanne Tsai's research on culture and emotion – Stanford SPARQJohn and Julie Gottman Relationship ResearchAsian American Values Scale – Paniagua & Yamada (Academic resource)Show NotesJessica ChenFeng shares her "yes and" identity as a second-generation Taiwanese American grounded in both math and creativity.How earthy aesthetics and connection to nature shape Jessica's professional and personal flourishing.The integration of Christian faith with clinical work at Fuller Seminary."Seeing systems of systems" — why thriving requires understanding how race, gender, and cultural forces shape individuals and families.Introduction to socio-emotional relationship therapy (SERT) and the value of mutuality in relationships.Defining mutuality: mutual attunement, mutual influence, mutual vulnerability, and mutual relational responsibility."Mutuality asks: Are both people tending to the relationship itself?"Practical signs of mutual and non-mutual relationships, including emotional attunement and willingness to be influenced.The importance of humility and relational awareness in building mutual relationships.The Circle of Care model: cultivating healthy relational dynamics through attunement and responsiveness.Discerning relational power dynamics in marriages, friendships, and work relationships."Thriving is an open heart, even on a stressful day."How emotional self-control in Asian American cultures is often rooted in relational ethics, not personal repression.The risk and gift of navigating cross-generational emotional communication in immigrant families.Differentiated selfhood: balancing authenticity with cultural respect in relational dynamics.Race, culture, and relational healing: why systems of privilege harm everyone."Love your neighbor as yourself" as an ethic for mutual flourishing across racial and cultural difference.Building trust by leaning into discomfort and courageous conversations.The need for embodied encounters with real people beyond theories of race and difference.Mindfulness practice: Jessica leads a guided exercise in attuning to pleasant sensations in the body.The transformational power of positive emotions and embodiment for creativity and resilience.The relational impact of systemic racialization and why "colorblindness" fails to honor real lived experience.Final reflections: How knowing who we are through systemic and relational lenses allows deeper thriving.Pam King's Key TakeawaysEach of us in the human family is a beloved child of God—and we need to continue to shape society to reflect this foundational truth.The path to meaning and fulfillment in a relationship starts with noticing and acknowledging the flow of emotional power, and its destination is mutuality and humilityThriving means incorporating all of who we are—our heritage and histories especially—into our love of ourselves, our love of others, and love of God.Our intimate relationships need care and attention as a third reality beyond our selves and our partners.And finally, thriving means opening our hearts each day, connecting our inner and relational realities, and learning to love patiently the multitudes we all contain.About Jessica ChenFengDr. Jessica ChenFeng is Associate Professor at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary, and is also Director of the Asian American Well-being Collaboratory at Fuller's Asian American Center. Prior to her time at Fuller she was a professor at Loma Linda University and California State University, Northridge.Jessica is known for her clinical expertise and scholarship integrating socio-contextual lenses of race, gender, and generation into work with minoritized individuals, families, and communities. In the last few years, her primary clinical focus has been the well-being of physicians, especially through pandemic-related trauma and burnout. She's co-authored two books, Finding Your Voice as a Beginning Marriage and FamilyTherapist, as well as Asian American Identities, Relationships, and Cultural Legacies: Reflections from Marriage and Family Therapists. She received the 2022 American Family Therapy Academy Early Career Award. About the Thrive CenterLearn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter About Dr. Pam KingDr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking. About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

A.J. Swoboda is a pastor, teacher, theologian, and author of such books as The Gift of Thorns, Subversive Sabbath, Slow Theology, After Doubt … to name a few. He serves on the faculties of George Fox University and Fuller Seminary where he teaches biblical studies, theology, and church history. He pastors Theophilus church in Portland, Oregon and leads a great podcast together with Nijay Gupta called Slow Theology. His most recent book, A Teachable Spirit, caught my attention because of its title. Few of us have that spirit, and more of us need it. Maybe I should speak only for myself. Let's talk about what it means to be spiritually and intellectually flexible enough to learn from peers, children, the culture … even our enemies. 

In this episode of Calibrate Conversations, I break down Fuller Seminary's recent controversial move. Once known for upholding biblical marriage and sexual ethics, Fuller Seminary appears to be wavering—trying to appease both sides. In today's discussion, we unpack the implications of this “middle ground” stance and why it matters for the future of biblical truth and discipleship.Join me as I explore:-The key elements of Fuller Seminary's recent statement-What it means for Christians who seek clarity in their faith-How this move affects both students and the wider Christian witnessDon't forget to like, subscribe, and share if you believe in standing firmly on biblical principles! For more resources, visit calibrateministries.com.Support the Ministry:A $25,000 matching donation is currently in place—your gift goes even further!Join us weekly as we strive help people embrace God's standard for sexuality! Other ways to listen:https://linktr.ee/calibrateconversations#FullerSeminary #BiblicalTruth #Christianity #Faith #SexualEthics

Fuller Theological Seminary just affirmed the biblical definition of marriage — but in the same breath, undermined its very foundation by elevating "lived experience" over God's Word. In this episode of the God is the Issue Podcast, Brad Bright exposes the subtle rhetorical shift that threatens core Christian doctrines like the virgin birth, miracles, and resurrection. If you've ever wondered how cultural compromise enters the Church, this is a must-watch. Stay grounded in truth—and don't fall for the same deception.https://studio.youtube.com/playlist/PLdQhfIGtd0bqu71-RysD8rKhsMbUohp8R/editBrightmedia.orgtwitter.com/GodIsTheIssueGOD, Who Are You Anyway?  by Bill Bright, with Brad Bright brightmedia.org/resources#UnderstandingChristianity#ChristianFaith #GodIsTheIssue #SinAndGrace #BiblicalTruth #JesusLovesYou #ChristianPodcast#worldview#Christianity#Faith#Jesus

Mental, emotional, and spiritual healing requires more than clinical technique—it demands sacrificial empathy, institutional trust, and a profound affirmation of the image of God in every human being. In this episode, clinical psychologist and Pine Rest CEO Mark Eastburg joins Mark Labberton to discuss the rising need for mental health care—especially for children, adolescents, and those recovering from severe trauma. Eastburg offers insights about the post-pandemic mental health landscape; psychological and emotional resilience; trauma-informed therapy; deep listening; and the theological, moral, and social commitments that drive Eastburg's approach to mental and spiritual health. They also discuss the systemic injustice underlying many mental health disparities, inviting us to see mental health care as a vital form of justice work rooted in compassion, dignity, and Christian witness. Episode Highlights “We're in the healing moments business. That's what we do … and I think those healing moments are the building blocks of the kingdom of God—just like atoms are the building blocks of the material world.” “We're in the healing moments business. … Those healing moments are the building blocks of the kingdom of God.” “Mental health work is justice work … especially when we're helping people who've been victims of injustice get back into community.” “If you just react to people's symptoms, you'll get more symptoms. But if you can see the beautiful human being underneath, you'll see more of that.” “A Christian approach to therapy starts with the belief that every person is made in the image of God—and they are someone's favourite brother or sister.” “Jesus's care for the outsider, for the downtrodden, the excluded—that has to define what we mean when we say we express the healing ministry of Christ.” About Mark Eastburg Mark Eastburg, PhD, is president and chief executive officer of Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services, one of the five largest free-standing behavioural health organizations in the United States. With a doctorate in clinical psychology from Fuller Theological Seminary, Eastburg has served in both clinical and leadership roles at Pine Rest for over three decades. He is a passionate advocate for trauma-informed care, access to mental health services, and a faith-integrated approach to healing grounded in human dignity and Christian compassion. Helpful Links and Resources Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services American Rescue Plan Show Notes Mental Health Landscape post-Covid Surge in mental health needs for children and adolescents, especially after pandemic lockdowns Dramatic increase in psychiatric crises among youth: anxiety, self-harm, aggression Tele-therapy rose during Covid, but adolescents strongly prefer in-person care “The post-Covid world—everything seems to have become more intense.” The symptoms of the adolescent mental health crisis Rise in social media use and marijuana legalization amplifying symptoms Anxiety, substance abuse “We are really shaped and developed by practices.” The experience of children in foster care Trauma-informed care essential for children with abuse and neglect histories Empathy requires the therapist to engage in “sacrificial vulnerability” Human mutual vulnerability—”The therapist, to express such empathy, has to themselves be prepared to manifest their own vulnerability to the person who has their own underlying vulnerabilities.” Sage advice for therapists: “If you just react to people symptoms, you're going to get more symptoms. But if you could look past the symptoms and see what he liked to call ‘the beautiful human being underneath everybody,' anyone that you interact with, you'll see more of that.” Sacrificial empathy Working toward healing moments—the building blocks for the kingdom of God Christian psychotherapy: “the ability to look at people as made in God's image.” Mental illness is another form of marginalization and exclusion “People are more than a set of symptoms to be treated.” Managing a crisis versus seeing a person How Pine Rest approaches mental health care Pine Rest's new $100 million pediatric behavioural health center in Michigan “Instead of waiting months for care, kids can just walk in and we'll sort it out.” New specialty clinics for autism, depression, eating disorders, and anxiety The universality of how mental health touches our lives Who sustains mental health care financially? What stokes a readiness for empathy? Deeper friendships and safe relationships of belonging as the foundation for mental health Stories of youth overcoming institutionalization and abuse through care “When a therapist sees the image of God, not just the behaviour, healing begins.” Cyprian of Carthage: “Let us be philosophers not in words, but in deeds.” “We often misperceive one another and then we misname one another and then we act in relationship to that person with the wrong name and the wrong perception.” Empathy, trauma, and Christian therapy “Our actions, our words can re-traumatize if we're not approaching with care.” Connection between sacred empathy and human flourishing “You can't manage people like machines—you have to wish for their flourishing.” The church, community, and mental health The role of church and community institutions in fostering resilience “You can't train enough therapists to solve the crisis—we have to go upstream.” Stories of church communities embracing those with mental illness “Belonging precedes healing. If someone feels cared for, they're more likely to show empathy.” Global suffering, Western understanding of “avoiding suffering,” and the search for meaning Contrast between global Christians and Western assumptions about suffering “While I think our work here at Pine Rest Mental Health—we're here to relieve suffering—there is suffering that is full of meaning and full of lessons to teach.” Christian healing values clashing with other predominant Western medical approaches “Suffering doesn't equal God's abandonment—it's often where God meets us.” Concerns about over-medicalizing suffering and ignoring its spiritual richness Lessons from early Christian health-care pioneers—“the reckless ones” who ran toward the sick “There is suffering full of meaning and lessons that Western models tend to miss.” Justice, dignity, and the Christian vocation to empathic care “Mental health care is justice work—especially for those traumatized or left out.” “People suffering, struggling with mental illness are often the victims of injustices.” The practice of psychotherapy and mental health care as pursuing social justice Connections between structural injustice and mental illness Biblical vision of justice includes care for those seen as defective or excluded Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Gavin Ortlund reflects on Fuller Seminary's recent position on marriage and sexuality. See Ed Stetzer's Article: https://churchleaders.com/voices/511720-fuller-seminary-james-k-a-smith-and-the-need-for-biblical-clarity.htmlSee President Goatley's Response: https://churchleaders.com/voices/exchange/511785-an-enduring-evangelical-way-of-being-a-response-from-david-emmanuel-goatley.htmlSee Sam Allberry's book, Is God Ant-Gay?: https://www.amazon.com/God-anti-gay-Questions-Christians-Ask/dp/1908762314Truth Unites (https://truthunites.org) exists to promote gospel assurance through theological depth. Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) is President of Truth Unites, Visiting Professor of Historical Theology at Phoenix Seminary, and Theologian-in-Residence at Immanuel Nashville.SUPPORT:Tax Deductible Support: https://truthunites.org/donate/Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/truthunitesFOLLOW:Website: https://truthunites.org/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/truth.unites/Twitter: https://twitter.com/gavinortlundFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/TruthUnitesPage/

On today's program, Gateway Church has named a new senior pastor. The appointment comes a year after child sexual abuse accusations surfaced against founding pastor Robert Morris. We'll have details. And, the Department of Justice is suing a city in Idaho for discriminating against Christ the Redeemer Church—a church plant of Doug Wilson's Christ Church. The church has been seeking a permit to meet in an old bank building—a request the city has denied. We'll take a look. Plus, Gereld Duane Rollins—who sued SBC legend Paul Pressler for sexual abuse—has died. His lawsuit sparked a Southern Baptist abuse reckoning. But first, Fuller Seminary reaffirms its stance on biblical sexuality. The board of Fuller, a leading evangelical seminary voted to affirm its long-standing stance on biblical marriage and human sexuality during its May meeting. But an email to supporters May 22 caused confusion. The email defined the biblical and historical understanding of biblical sexuality as “a union between a man and a woman and sexual intimacy within the context of that union.” But in the same email, the seminary's president also acknowledged that some “faithful” Christian denominations “have come to affirm other covenantal forms of relationship,” an unusual stance for an evangelical seminary. The producer for today's program is Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today's program include Bob Smietana, Kim Roberts, and Laura Erlanson. A special thanks to Baptist Press for contributing material for this week's podcast. Until next time, may God bless you.

David Emmanuel Goatley preaches on hearing God's call and responding to God's vision—even when things don't happen as we plan. David Emmanuel Goatley is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair at Fuller Seminary. Recorded at Fuller's All-Seminary Chapel on May 21, 2025.  

What is the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? And what does it have to do with conservative political power in the United States and abroad? Leah Payne and Caleb Maskell join Mark Labberton for a deep dive into the emergence and impact of the New Apostolic Reformation—a loosely affiliated global network blending Pentecostal Christian spirituality, charismatic authority, and political ambition. With their combined pastoral experience and scholarly expertise, Payne and Maskell chart the historical, theological, and sociopolitical roots of this Pentecostal movement—from Azusa Street and Latter Rain revivals to modern dominion theology and global evangelicalism. They distinguish the New Apostolic Reformation from the broader Pentecostal and charismatic traditions, and explore the popular appeal, theological complexity, and political volatility of the New Apostolic Reformation. Episode Highlights “Isn't this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?” “At no point in time in the history of these United States … have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.” “You can be super nationalistic in Guatemala, in Brazil, in India, and in the United States. … It is a portable form of nationalism.” “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.” “Charismatics and Pentecostals, unlike other forms of American Protestantism … do not have a theological value for democracy.” Main Themes Pentecostalism's history and global influence Charismatic Christianity versus Pentecostalism Defining and explaining the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) C. Peter Wagner, Lance Hall, and Seven Mountain Mandate Dominion theology, Christian nationalism, and the religious Right Pentecostals and Trump politics Zionism in charismatic theology Vineyard movement, worship music, and intimacy with God Linked Media References About Vineyard USA God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music by Leah Payne The New Apostolic Churches by C. Peter Wagner This Present Darkness by Frank Peretti Atlantic Article: “The Army of God Comes Out of the Shadows” by Stephanie McCrummen Bonhoeffer's America: A Land Without Reformation, by Joel Looper Another Gospel: Christian Nationalism and the Crisis of Evangelical Identity, by Joel Looper Show Notes Leah Payne defines Pentecostalism as “a form of American revivalism” William J. Seymour Marked by interracial desegregated worship and spiritual “fireworks” like tongues and prophecy Mystical experiences of God Desegregation and physically touching one another in acts of miraculous healing The Azusa Street Revival (1906) identified as a global catalyst for Assemblies of God denomination There is no founding theological figure, unlike Luther or Calvin Caleb Maskell emphasizes Pentecostalism's roots in “a founding set of experiences,” not a founding theological figure “Limits to what makes a church” Lack of ecclesiological clarity leaves Pentecostalism open to both renewal and fragmentation Leah highlights Pentecostalism as “a shared experience … a shared series of practices.” “Holy Rollers” and being “slain in the Spirit” “A different way of knowing” “Christians are made through an encounter with Jesus.” The global “charismatic movement” and how it has had cross-denominational Influence “Charismatic” was a mid-twentieth-century term for Spirit-led practices arising within mainline Protestant and Roman Catholic traditions Charismatic means “gifted” or “being given gifts” “‘Charismatic' has typically been a more inclusive word than ‘Pentecostal.'” Emphasis on personal spiritual gifts and intimate worship styles “They are not respecters of institutions.” Figures like Oral Roberts and Amy Semple McPherson were “too big” for denominational constraints “Too-bigness” as driven by both an over-inflated ego and spiritual mysticism Frederick Buechner: “The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet.” Spellbound, by Molly Worthen (see Conversing episode 212) What are the origins and key ideas of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? New Apostolic Reformation: “a form of institutionalized charismatic identity that builds on grassroots consensus.” “NAR” coined by C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary in the 1990s Wagner promoted post-denominationalism and “reality-based” church governance centred on individual charismatic gifts Emerged from a “larger soup” of charismatic ideas—often practiced before being systematized. Closely tied to the “Seven Mountain Mandate”: that Christians should influence key societal sectors—family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government The role of dominion theology and political alignment “The convergence of egos, the convergence of ethos … is a natural thing to see emerging.” “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance.” Payne sees dominionism as a Pentecostal-flavoured version of a broader conservative political strategy. “Charismatics and Pentecostals are everywhere … so we should expect them on the far right.” Many deny the NAR label even as they operate in its mode. ”When Bob Dylan's in your church, suddenly your church is relevant, whether you like it or not.” Defining “Dominionism” “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance. Cultural relevance says church should fit—not prophetically, but should fit all but seamlessly—into modes of culture that people are already in.” What are the “Seven Mountains of Culture”?  Family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government—”the world would go better if Christians were in charge of each of those arenas.” “At no point in time in the history of these United States and the history of European settlers in the new world have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.” Trump, Zionism, and global Pentecostal nationalism Christian nationalism versus religious Right “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy. … They think the nation of Israel is the nation of all nations.” “Isn't this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?” Anti-institutional and anti-structural How Trump seeks power and ego affirmation Christian theocratic rule? ”It may simply be a part of what it is to be a Christian is to say, at some level, within the spheres that I'm given authority in, I ought to have the right kind of influence, whatever it is.” “ I think what's scary about the moment that we're in right now is in fact the chaos.” A book about Donald Trump—God's Chaos Candidate, by Lance Wall ”The beliefs in divine prophecy are so widespread that they transcend partisanship.” Black Pentecostalism: immune to the charms of Trump and populist conservatives Trump's Zionist overtures strategically captured charismatic loyalty The rise of global Pentecostal nationalism in countries like India, Brazil, and Guatemala parallels US patterns. “They don't actually care long-term about American democracy.” “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.” Prosperity gospel Dominionism and the Roman Catholic “doctrine of discovery” The gospel of Christ as “sorting power” “It is a portable form of nationalism.” Concerns about power, order, and eschatology Mark Labberton reflects on Fuller Seminary's controversial role in NAR's intellectual development. Payne critiques the equation of widespread Pentecostal practices with far-right dominionism. “What's scary … is the chaos. And a number of people associated with NAR have celebrated that.” NAR theology often prioritizes divine chaos over institutional order. Warnings against super-biblical apostolic authority and spiritual authoritarianism. Pentecostalism beyond politics “There's a vivid essentialism—make everything great and all the nations will gather.” Vineyard worship as a counterweight to dominionism—emphasizing intimacy and mystical union with Christ. “That emphasis on Jesus as a friend … is a really beautiful image of God.” Vineyard music helped export a gentle, intimate charismatic spirituality. About Leah Payne Leah Payne is associate professor of American religious history at Portland Seminary and a 2023–2024 public fellow at the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI). She holds a PhD from Vanderbilt University, and her research explores the intersection of religion, politics, and popular culture. Payne is author of God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music (Oxford University Press, 2024), and co-host of Rock That Doesn't Roll, a Public Radio Exchange (PRX) podcast about Christian rock and its listeners, and Weird Religion, a religion and pop culture podcast. Her writing and research has appeared in The Washington Post, NBC News, Religion News Service, and Christianity Today. About Caleb Maskell Caleb Maskell is the associate national director of theology and education for Vineyard USA. Born in London, he immigrated with his family to New Jersey in 1986, at the age of nine. Caleb has been involved in leadership in the Vineyard movement for twenty-five years. After spending a gap year at the Toronto Airport Vineyard School of Ministry in 1995, he went to the University of Chicago to study theology, philosophy, and literature in the interdisciplinary undergraduate Fundamentals program. While there, he joined the core planting team of the Hyde Park Vineyard Church, where he served as a worship leader, a small group leader, a setter-up of chairs, and whatever else Rand Tucker asked him to do. After college, full of questions that had emerged from the beautiful collision of serious academic study and the practical realities of church planting, Caleb enrolled in the MDiv program at Yale Divinity School. For four years, he immersed himself in the study of theology, church history, and Scripture, while also leading worship and working with middle school and high school youth groups. After graduating in 2004, he worked for three years as the associate director of the Jonathan Edwards Center at Yale University. In 2007, along with his wife Kathy and their friends Matt and Hannah Croasmun, Caleb planted Elm City Vineyard Church in New Haven, Connecticut. That year, he also began a PhD program at Princeton University, focusing on the history of American religion, with an additional emphasis in African American studies. After moving to Manhattan for four years while Kathy went to seminary, the Maskells ended up in suburban Philadelphia, where Caleb completed his PhD while teaching regularly at Princeton Theological Seminary, and serving as the worship pastor at Blue Route Vineyard Church. Since 2010, Caleb has led the Society of Vineyard Scholars, which exists to foster and sustain a community of theological discourse in and for the Vineyard movement. Caleb is passionate about developing leaders and institutions that will help to produce a healthy, courageous, and hospitable future for the church in the twenty-first century. Caleb and Kathy now live with their two kids, Josiah and Emmanuelle, in the heart of Denver, where Kathy pastors East Denver Vineyard Church. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Kara Powell serves as the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute and as the Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Seminary. Kara recently authored a new book along with Jake Mulder and Raymond Chang entitled "Future Focused Churches." They did extensive research involving over one thousand churches with the goal of helping churches connect with the next generations.Kara offers several proven best practices for helping your ministry close the generation gap. This conversation is a must for any church wanting to invigorate the atmosphere with the life that comes from connecting with youth.Show Notes: https://www.95network.org/future-focused-churches-w-kara-powell-episode-287/Support the show

Dr. Gerry Breshears (Ph.D. Fuller Seminary) is a professor of theology at Western Seminary, a pastor of pastors, elder at Grace Community Church (Gresham, OR), and a happy great-grandfather. To listen to the last part of our conversation about women in leadership, become a Theology in the Raw patron at patreon.com/theologyintheraw Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Romantic relationships are sacred, powerful, and life-giving. But I don't have to tell you how difficult it is to love and let yourself be loved.Marriage and family therapist Dr. Terry Hargrave has been helping couples in crisis restore broken relationships for decades, teaching them how to get unstuck, improve communication, and move beyond destructive coping mechanisms—to find reciprocity, self-affirming confidence, emotional regulation, and a joyful, lasting love.In a world marked by loneliness, disconnection, and emotional dysregulation, Hargrave offers powerful insights on the human need for identity, safety, and belonging—and how we can heal the wounds that keep us stuck. Drawing on decades of therapeutic experience and deep personal reflection, Hargrave explains how coping mechanisms like blame, shame, control, and escape can damage relationships—and how the peace cycle of nurture, self-valuing, balanced give-and-take, and connection can restore wholeness. He discusses his unique approach to the healing and restorative power of relationships, which lifts us up to our potential, encouraging us toward a nurturing, self-valuing, non-controlling reciprocity, and true connection.In this conversation with Terry Hargrave, we discuss:How to turn around a relationship in crisis and get off the emotional rollercoasterHow to build security and trust in order to improve or repair a marriage or long-term relationshipCoping mechanisms of blame, shame, control, and escapePractical steps to learn emotional self-regulationWhat to do when only one partner is working on a relationshipThe role of the brain and neuroplasticity in relational repairAnd the spiritual underpinnings of Terry's approach to restoration therapyEpisode Highlights"It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing—until you claim your belovedness for yourself, nothing will change.""Relationships are a mirror—we discover who we are through how others see us.""Blame, shame, control, and escape—nothing good comes from these coping mechanisms.""Understanding doesn't produce change. Doing produces change.""When we nurture, self-value, connect, and cooperate, unleashed joy happens.""Thriving is doing more of your best self, not learning something new."Helpful Links and ResourcesRestoration Therapy Training ResourcesThe Mindful Marriage by Ron Deal and Nan Deal (with Terry and Sharon Hargrave)Five Days to a New Self by Terry HargraveEmotionally Focused Therapy and Sue Johnson's LegacyShow NotesIntroduction to Terry Hargrave and the importance of Restoration Therapy today"We are still the same humans, but with a bigger pipe of problems and fewer emotional connections."Emotional dysregulation linked to identity and safety threatsRelationships as a mirror to the self and necessary for human thriving"For there to be a me, there has to be a thou."Why relationships are difficult: imperfection, wounding, and unmet needsHow family of origin wounds influence coping styles"Families don't mean to screw each other up, but somehow they manage to."Introduction of the four major unhealthy coping mechanisms: blame, shame, control, and escapeHow overachievement, perfectionism, and withdrawal are survival strategies from early wounding"Your greatest strength might actually be an old coping habit getting in the way of intimacy."The relational signs that coping mechanisms are damaging relationshipsHealing through self-regulation: speaking truth to yourself with love"Put your hand on your heart and remind yourself of who you really are."The difference between co-regulation and self-regulation in emotional healingRestoration Therapy's peace cycle: nurture, self-value, balance, connection"Nothing good comes from blame, shame, control, or escape."The role of practice and neuroplasticity in forming new relational habits"Doing, not just understanding, is what rewires the brain."How thriving relationships move from neediness to adventurous partnershipIntimacy as knowing yourself more fully through connection, not just need satisfactionCooperative growth and mutual flourishing as hallmarks of thrivingApplication of restoration principles to broader societal healing and reconciliation"Unleashed joy happens when we choose nurture and connection, even with adversaries."The critical role of faith in affirming belovedness and ultimate identity"Everyone else and even God can tell you you're beloved—but you have to claim it for yourself."Practical advice for knowing when to seek therapyWhere to find Restoration Therapy-trained therapistsResources for learning more: Mindful Marriage and other Restoration Therapy booksThe key takeaways that I will carry with me from this conversation are the following:You can change. Your relationship can change. But it takes a daily practice of hard work to create lasting change.And though you might fail, there is hope that you can begin again.Our coping mechanisms are not superpowers. They hurt us and the people we love.Understanding is not enough. Action and behavior has to follow for change to occur.[Any others?] It takes two to tango, but that doesn't get you off the hook from doing the work on yourself.And finally, a thriving relationship creates joy all around it, within a family, in a community, and it shows how personal relationships can change society.About Terry HargraveDr. Terry Hargrave. Until he retired recently, he was the Evelyn and Frank Freed Professor of Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary, and a nationally recognized therapist known for his pioneering work with intergenerational families.He's most well known as the founder of Restoration Therapy, which combines advantages of Attachment Theory, Emotional Regulation, and Mindfulness—all in an efficient and organized format that allows both the therapist and client to understand old habits and destructive patterns of behavior and promote change in both individual mental and spiritual health, in order to transform our most intimate relationships.Terry has authored or co-authored over 35 professional articles and fifteen books including Restoration Therapy: Understanding and Guiding Healing in Marriage and Family Therapy and Families and Forgiveness: Healing Wounds in the Intergenerational Family.In his latest book project, he worked with his wife Sharon, also a licensed marriage and family therapist. It's called The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself, and it's a practical manual co-written with Ron and Nan Deal about how they healed their relationship after almost losing it.He's presented internationally on relationship dynamics, family and marriage restoration, the complexities of intergenerational families, healing and reconciliation, and the process of aging.His work has been featured on ABC News, 20/20, Good Morning America, and CBS This Morning as well as several national magazines and newspapers.You can learn more about Terry Hargrave and his work—and find books, practical resources, and professional training materials at: restorationtherapytraining.com. About the Thrive CenterLearn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter About Dr. Pam KingDr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking. About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

Historian and journalist Molly Worthen explores the mysterious and potent force of charisma, and its power to shape American identity, culture, politics, and religion. She explains how storytelling, transcendence, and authority are used by America's most charismatic leaders. Drawing on her new book Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History from the Puritans to Donald Trump, Worthen shares how charismatic authority reveals deep human desires for meaning, agency, and transcendence. The conversation explores themes of vulnerability, spiritual hunger, religious disaffiliation, and the evolving nature of belief and belonging in modern society. Worthen unpacks the often-overlooked distinction between charisma and charm or celebrity, examining the role of storytelling in cultivating authority and devotion. She also shares how researching this subject intersected with her own spiritual journey, culminating in her recent conversion to Christianity. Key Moments Molly Worthen discusses her latest book, *Spellbound.* Charisma: a relational, story-driven phenomenon, not mere charm or celebrity Our religious impulse persists despite declining traditional affiliation Worthen's personal spiritual journey: from intellectual agnosticism to Christian faith while writing the book Donald Trump's narrative charisma and religious-political appeal examined in depth Human longing for transcendence and meaning as the root of charismatic power Episode Highlights “Evangelism is just telling people what happened to you.” “The heart of charisma is the leader's ability to tell a story… that does a better job at explaining the chaos and the suffering.” “We want the comfort of knowing that some force larger than us is ultimately in charge—and yet we also seek agency.” “I came to realize I was writing a book that was fundamentally about spiritual hunger—and that I myself had that hunger too.” “Authenticity as a personal style has no necessary relationship with honesty.” “We kid ourselves if we think more sources solve the mystery of charisma—reality is an asymptote we never perfectly reach.” About Molly Worthen Molly Worthen is Associate Professor of History at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, specializing in North American religion, politics, global Christianity, and the history of ideas. She is a contributing writer for The New York Times and author of several books, including Apostles of Reason and The Man on Whom Nothing Was Lost. Her most recent book is Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History from the Puritans to Donald Trump. Show Notes Authority—who should we listen to? Internal battles within American evangelicalism The definition of charisma and its distinction from charm, celebrity, and power Charisma: “ the allure in a leader that gives him or her the power to move a crowd that is premised on a relationship. … you need two parties at least. It's not solely a quality of fluorescence that shines out from the individual without other people to interact with it.” The leader's ability to tell a story that explains the audience's experience of life Paradoxical quality: we want our decision to make a difference in our fate, but we also want some being or force larger than us to make it all okay. “ It's not just about looking at the one who is the special anointed one, but it's that somehow through that person, I too, or we too, see ourselves more clearly.” Special revelation and stories of experiencing God in particular ways “Capturing the ineffable” Role of charismatic leaders in American religious and political life Impact of Joseph Smith, Anne Hutchinson, JFK, and Adlai Stevenson Why institutional religion no longer captures spiritual impulse for many Americans Storytelling as the essence of charismatic authority Evolution of American individualism and the cult of authenticity How mass media, trauma, and cultural crises shape charismatic influence Coming to terms with the limits of your “source base”—”Reality is an asymptote.” “It's that sort of transcendent storytelling ability that is the heart of charisma.” Mormonism and the charisma of Joseph Smith Leaders like JFK and Adlai Stevenson offered different models of modern charisma “So much of my book is really about the fortunes of established institutions in American culture because charismatic figures always define themselves vis-a-vis institutions.” Routinizing charisma (cf. Max Weber) “The gap or the consistency between what our subjects are, are thinking and intending consciously and what they actually do.” Intuition vs analysis—steeping in cultural milieu and operating out of personal life experiences The Puritan heretic, Anne Hutchinson “Very few humans are out and out cynics.” Charismatic figures aren't always attractive or eloquent—they resonate through meaning-making “ The religious impulse is finding a place to land other than organized religion.” Protestant roots of American consciousness tied to authority and self-discovery Humanist psychology and positive thinking “The age of the gurus” Charisma and Contemporary Politics: Donald Trump Trump's story of victimhood, self-made success, and defiance of institutions as a charismatic myth Trump's stream-of-consciousness style perceived as authenticity by many followers. “For example, his rambling stream of consciousness, speaking style that actually is a core, is core to his appeal, I think for many Trump supporters because it comes across as a kind of authenticity—as a willingness to tell it how it is and speak off the top of his head. And authenticity as a personal style has no necessary relationship with honesty in terms of correspondence to, you know, empirically verifiable facts.” The alignment between his narrative and the prosperity gospel ”While Donald Trump is no one's idea of an Orthodox Christian, he grew up in Norman Vincent Peale's Church in New York City, Marble Collegiate Church, hearing the Prosperity Gospel, the gospel of positive thinking.” ”I think Trump has a, has a really acute spiritual instinct for. That picture of reality one in which we can really reshape reality with our minds.” Early support from independent charismatic church networks shaped his rise. Importance of positive thinking theology (e.g., Norman Vincent Peale) in his spiritual instincts. “I suppose I was about two thirds of the way through the rough draft of this book when I was rudely interrupted by the Holy Spirit. I have always studied Christianity as a very sympathetic and, frankly, envious outsider and never was entirely happy with my agnostic fence sitting, but also wasn't actively looking to resolve my metaphysical questions.” “ I've always had this conviction that humans are fundamentally religious creatures and they have this impulse to connect to a transcendent source of meaning to worship.” “I came to realize that I was writing a book that was fundamentally about spiritual hunger and how humans cope with it. But that I myself had had that hunger as well—that I'm not immune to that feature of the human dilemma.” “We want to be pulled into something transcendent, where we are more fully ourselves.” Praying for a mystical experience—at least being “strangely warmed” ”God had already done something to my desires—I was walking in the direction of Jesus already.” “ I always see every kind of historical problem as somehow having to do with contesting visions of human nature.” “There's this silly misconception that Christianity is intellectually stultifying—that to become a orthodox, traditional Christian is to shut off all kinds of questions and accept a black and white way of thinking. And that has not been my experience.” Research project on miracles “ Evangelism is just telling people what happened to you.” Conversion was driven by rigorous academic inquiry into the resurrection and New Testament Experience echoed themes in the book: story, vulnerability, and being seen Her analysis: “God had already done something to my desires before the arguments convinced me.” Post-conversion excitement about theological study, healing, and miracles Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Today, I'm joined by Cara Meredith, author of the new book Church Camp. We're digging into the ways camp shapes our faith, our friendships, and our sense of who belongs. We get real about the fun memories, but also the uncomfortable parts—who was included, who was left out, and what messages we picked up along the way. Cara and I talk about how camp can turn faith into a checklist—who's in, who's out, who fits and who doesn't. But we also imagine what camp could be if it became a place of real belonging, where every kid was seen and valued, no matter their story. If you've ever looked back on your camp experience with mixed feelings, or wondered how those weeks shaped your view of God and yourself, you'll find something here. This episode is about holding the good and the hard together, asking better questions, and dreaming about what's possible. So join us as we go to camp.A sought-after speaker, writer, and public theologian, Cara Meredith is the author of Church Camp and The Color of Life. Passionate about issues of justice, race, and privilege, Cara holds a master of theology from Fuller Seminary and is a postulant for Holy Orders in the Episcopal Church. With a background in education and nonprofit work, she wears more hats than she probably ought, but mostly just enjoys playing with words, a lot. Her writing has been featured in national media outlets such as The Oregonian, The New York Times, The Living Church, The Christian Century, and Baptist News Global, among others. She lives with her family in Oakland, California.Cara's Book:Church CampCara's Recommendation:Here I AmSubscribe to Our Substack: Shifting CultureConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.usGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTubeConsider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below Support the show

Mike Iversen came from an Evangelical background, and after getting degrees in English and Earth Science, he felt called to bring his skills to youth ministry, going on to get an M.A. in Theology from Fuller Seminary. During his studies, he also spent many years working with Young Life. His study of apologetics, Church history, and more helped him realize the need for a solid authority in a world plagued by relativism. He was also drawn by the reality of Christ's power in the sacraments, and knew he had to come home to the Catholic Church.

You can't be moral on your own. That's a radical idea in this time of moral outrage, but thriving in public life requires a sense of mutual accountability, belonging, and hospitality for each other.Mona Siddiqui is a professor of religion and society, an author, commentator, and public intellectual, and she suggests that the virtues of loyalty, gratitude, hospitality, and hope can lead us through the common struggle of being human together, living forward into a thriving life of public faith and renewed moral imagination.As Professor of Islamic and Interreligious Studies, Assistant Principal for Religion and Society, and Dean international for the Middle-East at the University of Edinburgh, she is an international beacon of hope that we might find restoration, hospitality, and flourishing in our world of struggle. Working through questions of loyalty, responsibility, belonging, gratitude, robust faith, and what we owe each other, we can find abundant resources for thriving and spiritual health.In this conversation with Mona Siddiqui, we discuss:What is a moral life?The connection between faith, spirituality, and living a moral life of responsibility and integrityThe difference between cultivating virtuous character and doing justiceHow to thrive in a pluralistic society marked by constant struggle and conflictThe promise of gratitude and hospitality in a life of thrivingAnd how to pursue a hopeful, forward-looking approach to restoration in the wake of harm, loss, pain, and suffering.Episode Highlights"Our moral life only becomes alive when we are in a relationship—you can't be moral on your own.""Life is all about searching. Life is all about introspection. Life is all about reflection.""The good life is hard; it's not about ease, but about living with accountability and responsibility.""Hospitality isn't just welcoming—it's negotiating belonging, loyalty, and a sense of shared life.""Gratitude can liberate, but it can also create hierarchies and transactional indebtedness.""Hope is not naive optimism—without hope, how do you live, build relationships, or carry forward at all?"Helpful Links and ResourcesFollow Mona on X (Twitter) at @monasiddiqui7*Christians, Muslims, and Jesus,* by Mona SiddiquiHuman Struggle, Christian and Muslim Perspectives, by Mona SiddiquiA Theology of Gratitude: Christian and Muslim Perspectives, by Mona SiddiquiMy Way: A Muslim Woman's Journey by Mona SiddiquiThe Moral Maze, BBC Radio 4Show NotesMona Siddiqui's personal background in Islamic jurisprudence and public theology“I got into Islamic jurisprudence because of personal connection and intellectual curiosity.”Navigating public discourse post-9/11 as a non-white, non-Christian scholarImportance of pluralism and living within diverse identities"I need to create a space that appeals to a wider audience—not just about what I think."Growing up with intellectual freedom in a traditional Islamic householdHow faith upbringing seeds lifelong moral introspection"You are always answering to yourself—you know when you have not lived rightly."Developing comparative theology through seminars with Christian scholarsOverlapping themes between Islamic and Christian thought on the good lifeThe significance of accountability over blanket forgiveness"Belonging is crucial to being a good citizen—you can't flourish alone."Exploration of loyalty: loyalty to people vs loyalty to principlesCivic loyalty and critical engagement with the state“Because I feel loyal to my country, I should also be its critic.”The role of prayer in cultivating internal moral awarenessReflection on virtues: gratitude, loyalty, hopeThe dark sides of gratitude and loyalty in institutionsParenting with a focus on integrity, accountability, and faithfulness“Live so that whatever you say in public, you can say at home—and vice versa.”Emphasis on public engagement: speaking clearly, making complex ideas accessible"Radio became a gift—people want complex ideas made simple and meaningful."Remaining hopeful despite the culture of outrage and cynicismYoung people's resilience and persistent hopefulnessHospitality as a fundamental ethic for creating trust and belongingStruggle as a normative, transformative experience that shapes flourishing"Thriving is not just freedom—it's centering, writing, speaking, and deep human connection."The importance of relationships in thriving and flourishing“Most of us realize—relationships are the hardest, but the most rewarding.”Redefining gratitude: avoiding transactional gratitude, cultivating authentic gratefulnessStruggle cultivates introspection, resilience, creativity, and a deeper moral lifePam King's Key TakeawaysI can't be moral on my own. But my decisions are my own. In the end, living with integrity means living with virtue.Personal and public flourishing are deeply connected to our lives of faith and spirituality; and all of us need to bring the depths of our personal spiritual commitments into public life.We can offer hope and freedom from fear to each other when we expand our hospitality to all persons.The practice of gratitude in the face of our vulnerability is easier said than done—but is a strengthening response to uncertainty and suffering.And finally, human struggle is something we hold in common, and it can be redeemed for creativity, beauty, healing restoration, and a reminder of our dignity as human creatures.About Mona SiddiquiMona Siddiqui is Professor of Islamic and Interreligious Studies, Assistant Principal for Religion and Society, and Dean international for the Middle-East at the University of Edinburgh.Her research areas are primarily in the field of Islamic jurisprudence and ethics and Christian-Muslim relations. She's the author of many books, including Human Struggle: Christian and Muslim Perspectives,Hospitality in Islam: Welcoming in God's Name, and My Way: A Muslim Woman's Journey. A scholar of theology, philosophy, and ethics, she's conducted international research on Islam and Christianity, gratitude, loyalty and fidelity, hope, reconciliation and inter-faith theological dialogue, and human struggle.Mona is well known internationally as a public intellectual and a speaker on issues around religion, ethics and public life and regularly appears as a media commentator on BBC Radio 4 and BBC Radio Scotland's Thought for the Day and The Moral Maze.A recipient of numerous awards and recognition, she is a fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, she gave the prestigious Gifford Lectures in Natural Theology. She was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences as an International Honorary Member. And Dr. Siddiqui was appointed Officer of the Order of the British Empire, which is just steps below the highest Knighting—specifically for her public interfaith efforts.To learn more, I'd highly recommend her books, but you can also follow her on X @monasiddiqui7. About the Thrive CenterLearn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter About Dr. Pam KingDr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking. About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

Elise White Diaz is well-versed in the challenges facing diverse students from difficult backgrounds. Prior to her work in public education, Elise's passion for trauma-informed pedagogy began when she moved to Tegucigalpa, Honduras to serve at a school for child laborers in the garbage dump. There she taught bilingual and ESL education at the secondary level, and learned so much from her students who overcame obstacles and went on to college.  Upon returning to the United States, Elise brought her experiences to a diverse district in North Texas. She wove together principles from culturally-relevant, trauma-informed education and language acquisition in innovative ways, bringing dramatic gains in standardized test (STAAR) scores. Soon after, she began to mentor and coach teachers in how to recreate these routines. Elise has served in various roles in Emergent Bilingual education, including co-teaching, instructional coaching, writing curriculum, and offering professional development to Texas schools. As a consultant for Seidlitz Education, Elise enjoys supporting teachers in their important work of building language and connection across cultures and obstacles. She holds a Master's degree from Fuller Seminary in Intercultural Studies and lives in the Dallas area with her husband and two children. She is a member of the National Association for Bilingual Education and Women-for-Orphans-Worldwide, and returns to Central America wherever she can.

“Leadership is defined by listening.” In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton explains the essential role listening plays in leadership and successful communication.  Leaders are often known for what they've said publicly or privately, but in actual fact, the experience of leadership and the effectiveness of leadership is determined by the mutuality of listening and learning that goes on between the primary leader and the team that they're working with at any given time. Here, Mark shares from his decades of leadership experience as a Presbyterian minister and seminary president. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes Relationships of trust “ Listening is as critical to the existence of leadership as it is to the partnership of leadership.” “ If we don't have listening, then the partnership that leadership requires simply can't exist.” What leadership is really about: the people you're leading are known, served, discovered, changed, renewed Tone-deaf leaders: leaders who are out of touch If you don't want to be out of touch or tone deaf, “enter the room listening.” “Leaders are often known for what they've said publicly or privately, but in actual fact, the experience of leadership and the effectiveness of leadership is determined by the mutuality of listening and learning that goes on between the primary leader and the team that they're working with at any given time.” Mutuality of learning and listening together—adding oxygen to the room Bringing part of yourself versus bringing your whole self to a leadership relationship “ Let's not listen to one another first critically and negatively. Let's listen to one another with hope, with earnestness, with a genuine desire to receive their perspective and letting that actually inform how we lead.” “When I ran into people who are having difficulties with their senior leader, it's almost always around the leader's failure to listen. At one level or another, they are not hearing the people that they're leading.” “A leader who doesn't listen is like a person deciding to jump off a cliff. …  The longer they don't listen, the more they are isolated by themselves and at risk.” Leadership enriched by an understanding of each other “A shared communion of decision making” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Strong leadership is born not from control, but from authentic community and the cultivation of people and teams. Nathan Hatch, former president of Wake Forest University and esteemed historian, joins Mark Labberton to reflect on the nature of transformative leadership. Drawing from his decades of experience at Notre Dame and Wake Forest—and from his new book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders—Hatch explores how leaders cultivate thriving institutions through humility, vision, and empowerment. Hatch shares his personal journey from growing up in a Presbyterian home to leading major universities, while reflecting on the comomunity, character, instincts, and freedom required for lasting institutional impact. Episode Highlights "Organizations aren't self-generating—you bet on people, not on strategy." "Organizations are best served when you have a team of like-minded people, each using their own strengths." "Leadership has to flow out of who you are authentically—you can't try to be someone else." "If you have exceptional people, it takes management of a different form—it's collaboration." "Leadership is not about control but about strength: hiring strong people is harder, but it's transformative." "People read your real meanings, not your words—authenticity is the heart of leadership." Helpful Links & Resources The Gift of Transformative Leaders, by Nathan Hatch University of Notre Dame Wake Forest University Jim Collins - Good to Great About Nathan Hatch Dr. Nathan O. Hatch is President Emeritus of Wake Forest University and one of America's leading scholars of religion and higher education. Prior to his presidency at Wake Forest (2005–2021), Hatch served as provost at the University of Notre Dame. His groundbreaking scholarship in American religious history includes The Democratization of American Christianity, and his latest book is The Gift of Transformative Leaders. Hatch is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and continues to speak and write on leadership, higher education, and culture. Show Notes Raised in a Christian home; son of a Presbyterian minister and teacher Influenced early by history teacher and work experiences in Cabrini Green, Chicago Studied at Wheaton College, Washington University in St. Louis, and Johns Hopkins University Became an unlikely but successful historian at the University of Notre Dame Leadership philosophy shaped by early experiences with supportive professional teams and deep community and friendship How did the past come to change and create the world we live in? Transitioned from historian to administrator, balancing scholarship and administration Provost at Notre Dame: emphasized empowering faculty through development and resources President at Wake Forest: built strong leadership teams, expanded institutional vision Reflections on Father Theodore Hesburgh's visionary leadership at Notre Dame “Organizations aren't self-generating. … [it takes] a vision and leader.” "Leadership must be authentic; it must come out of who you are." The transformative impact of great leadership teams over hierarchical control Importance of raising institutional aspirations and empowering individuals to flourish "Hiring strong people makes the leader stronger, not weaker." Nathan Hatch's book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders Profiles 13 leaders who exemplify commitment, character, and institution-building Focus on people-centric leadership: authenticity, humility, vision Leaders described as radiating positivity, cultivating others, and advancing institutional missions Catholic and Protestant institutional differences in faith expression Creating inclusive religious life in pluralistic academic communities Investing in character education through initiatives like Wake Forest's scholarship programs Building culture: "Noticing people, investing in them, seeing their potential." “How do we help young people live their life?” Identifying and empowering exceptional talent Embracing unconventional hiring practices Building thriving, collaborative, life-giving teams Cultivating environments where people pursue a common good Navigating faculty-administration relationships with authenticity and transparency Facing organizational financial challenges without losing people-first priorities Leadership in contexts with limited resources: raising people's potential Authenticity and empathy are foundational to leadership Humility and commitment to the common good are non-negotiable Leaders must genuinely invest in the flourishing of others Institutions are transformed not by structures alone but by transformative people Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.