Podcasts about fuller seminary

Spiritual practices can improve your physical and emotional health – but that doesn't mean spirituality is a wellness hack. David DeSteno's groundbreaking work explores how religious rituals like prayer and chanting are so beneficial as powerful psychological tools. But what happens if you take these rituals outside of their community context? David can speak to both sides of the equation: the science behind faith, and the mystery of the sacred.   David DeSteno is a professor of psychology at Northeastern University, where he directs the Social Emotions Lab – exploring the effects of emotions like gratitude and compassion. His latest book is called How God Works: The Science Behind the Benefits of Religion, and he hosts a podcast of the same name.  About David's work: David's website How God Works: The Science Behind the Benefits of Religion - 2021 book How God Works podcast  Social Emotions Lab David referenced:  Michael Pollen Johns Hopkins Center for Psychedelic & Consciousness Research  Rabbi Shira Stutman  Rabbi Angela Buchdahl Rev. Alex Leach's Burning Man camp With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media & Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenSenior Producer: Clare WileyExecutive Producer: Jakob LewisProduced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Send a textREPRISE - After attending a recent event featuring Dr. Jemar Tisby, I had the chance to connect with the host of that gathering, Professor Jessica Wai-Fong Wong, Associate Professor of Systematic Theology at Azusa Pacific University and author of the groundbreaking book Disordered: Holy Icons and Racial Myths.In this episode, we reflect on that event, where Dr. Tisby shared moving stories about his relationship with the late Dr. Bill Pennell of Fuller Theological Seminary—a pioneering voice in racial awareness whose bold challenges to white evangelicalism began in the late '60s and continued for decades.Dr. Wong, herself deeply influenced by Dr. Pennell's legacy, joins me for a conversation that dives into the concept of whiteness as an archetype and its enduring impact on Christian theology and the history of race. Drawing from her own journey as a Chinese American woman raised in predominantly white spaces in Texas, Dr. Wong shares insights from her book, including what it means to "aspire to whiteness" and the painful experience of being cast as an "anti-icon" in a white-dominated religious context.We also explore my own experience within a Korean megachurch in Southern California, examining how whiteness becomes synonymous with order, while everyone else—Black, brown, Asian, Jewish, or female—is often seen as a threat to it.This is more than a theological discussion—it's a deep dive into history, identity, and the present-day political and spiritual moment we're all navigating. SHOW NOTESOriginally aired April 2025Support the showBecome a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken's Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Electricity underwrites nearly every aspect of modern life, yet decisions about power, cost, and control are increasingly opaque. New York Times energy correspondent Ivan Penn joins Mark Labberton to unpack how data centres, AI, utilities, and politics are reshaping the grid—and who ultimately bears the cost. "The real focus is who pays and who gets paid." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Penn reflects on his journey into journalism, his unexpected path into energy reporting, and how covering power revealed the economic forces shaping daily life. Together they discuss electricity as a moral and economic issue, the rise of AI-driven data centres, nuclear power's return, utilities versus tech giants, consumer vulnerability, racial inequity in journalism, and faith as a commitment to truth. –––––––––––––––– Episode Highlights "The real focus is who pays and who gets paid." "Electricity is the most important resource we have." "The utilities once the Goliath have suddenly become a David." "We wouldn't have need for any of this if you didn't build a data centre." "To be able to stop abuse with a pen is a powerful thing." –––––––––––––––– About Ivan Penn Ivan Penn is an energy correspondent for the New York Times, where he reports on electricity, utilities, nuclear power, data centres, and the economic forces shaping the energy transition. He has covered energy and utilities for more than fifteen years and has previously worked at the Los Angeles Times, Tampa Bay Times, Baltimore Sun, and Miami Herald. Penn's reporting has examined nuclear plant failures, grid reliability, climate pressures, and the growing influence of technology companies in energy markets. A longtime journalist shaped by investigative reporting, he is also attentive to issues of equity, public accountability, and consumer protection. Penn is a graduate of the University of Maryland and was the first black editor-in-chief of its student newspaper. He also holds a master's in global leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary and was a John S. Knight Fellow at Stanford University. His work reflects a commitment to accuracy, fairness, and public service journalism. Learn more and follow at nytimes.com/by/ivan-penn –––––––––––––––– Helpful Links and Resources Ivan Penn – New York Times profile https://www.nytimes.com/by/ivan-penn The New York Times – Energy and Environment coverage https://www.nytimes.com/section/climate Three Mile Island nuclear plant background https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/3mile-isle National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners https://www.naruc.org PJM Interconnection electricity market https://www.pjm.com –––––––––––––––– Show Notes Childhood shaped by public-school educators and nightly news rituals Early journalism roots as school weatherman and student editor Becoming first Black editor-in-chief at University of Maryland paper "It was a powerful thing that I was able to experience." Early reporting career across major regional newspapers Assigned to energy and utilities beat as apparent punishment Broken Crystal River nuclear plant sparks investigative focus Anonymous source meeting at a Chili's launches major reporting trail NRC documents unlock public-records investigation Rare use of anonymous sources, reliance on verifiable documents Sixteen years covering nuclear, utilities, and electricity markets Nuclear renaissance promised dozens of reactors, delivered only two Return of nuclear amid AI-driven electricity demand Rise of small modular and advanced reactor proposals Debate over safety, fuel design, and reactor scale Data centers driving exponential growth in electricity demand "Anything connected to the grid plays a role." Grid costs shared across homeowners, businesses, and industry Tech companies argue for shared infrastructure responsibility Consumer advocates argue data centers cause new costs Utility regulation spanning local, state, and federal levels "The real focus is who pays and who gets paid." Tech giants eclipse utilities as dominant financial players Consumer advocates outmatched by utility and tech resources Journalism as faith-shaped commitment to truth and fairness –––––––––––––––– #EnergyPolicy #ElectricityGrid #Journalism #FaithAndPublicLife #AIInfrastructure #Utilities #ClimateEconomy –––––––––––––––– Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

Many of us reach our 40s and have a wake-up call: a major event that shifts our perspective on what matters in life. Chip Conley had the most dramatic wake-up call ever: a near-death experience. Chip was giving a speech on stage when he died – literally. The experience would set off a chain reaction of events that changed the course of his life. Chip is a renowned entrepreneur, best-selling author, and speaker known for his pioneering approach to innovation, leadership, and hospitality. He founded the country's second-largest operator of boutique hotels, then led a travel revolution at Airbnb. But it was his brush with death that spurred him to launch the Modern Elder Academy, a series of workshops and programs that help folks reframe their relationship with aging.  In this episode, we talk about navigating transitions, cultivating purpose, and owning wisdom, and Chip shares a practice for tapping into your own wisdom.  Links and resources: The Modern Elder Academy The Anatomy of a Transition - free ebook MEA on Facebook With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

When public life feels loud and divided, what does quiet faithfulness look like? In the US House of Representatives, every legislative day begins with prayer. This responsibility rests with the chaplain of the house and shapes the daily spiritual rhythms of the institution. "Chaplains aren't combatants. We carry no weapon." On January 3, 2021, Rev. Dr. Margaret Grun Kibben was elected by the House to be its sixty-first chaplain. She offers daily prayer and steady pastoral presence and care in one of the most visible and contested institutions in American life. In this conversation with Mark Labberton, she reflects on vocation, pastoral identity, pluralism, crisis leadership, prayer in public life, and the quiet discipline of blessing those entrusted with leadership. She reflects on her early call to ministry as a teen, her formation as a military chaplain to the Navy, a defining season in Afghanistan, and her unexpected path to serving in the House. Together they discuss confidential care, advising leaders, the ministry of presence, praying across differences, the history of prayer in Congress, and how to bless leaders without turning prayer into a tool of ideology. Episode Highlights "I had a sense of call to ministry when I was about fourteen." "Chaplains are where it matters, when it matters, with what matters." "What is your theology of ministry?" "It is the ninety-nine who were leaving the room that needed the shepherd." "God is on his throne. He hasn't stepped down." About Margaret Grun Kibben Rev. Dr. Margaret Grun Kibben serves as the sixty-first chaplain of the United States House of Representatives. Ordained in the Presbyterian Church (USA), she previously completed a thirty-five-year career in the US Navy, including service as the twenty-sixth chief of Navy chaplains and director of religious ministry for the Department of the Navy. In that role, she advised senior naval leadership and oversaw chaplains serving sailors, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen around the world. She holds degrees from Goucher College and Princeton Theological Seminary and earned a doctor of ministry focused on theology and leadership. Her ministry has included deployments overseas and senior-level advisement in complex, pluralistic environments. Helpful Links And Resources Office of the Chaplain, US House of Representatives: https://chaplain.house.gov US House Chaplain YouTube Channel (Daily Prayers before Sessions) https://www.youtube.com/@USHouseChaplain January 6, 2026 Prayer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQLhXt3gWBg Show Notes Call to ministry at fourteen; early clarity of vocation Presbyterian upbringing and the influence of youth pastor Blair Mooney Visit to the Naval Academy and discernment of Navy chaplaincy Integrating Christian ministry with military service "Chaplains aren't combatants. We carry no weapon." Serving people in uniform, not serving an institution as ideology Four core capabilities: provide, facilitate, care, advise Religious pluralism in the armed forces; more than 200 faith traditions Protecting sacraments, holy days, and dietary practices in deployment settings Facilitating worship for traditions not one's own Confidential communication and priest-penitent privilege across beliefs "There is 100 percent confidentiality." Advising commanders on ethics, conscience, and moral complexity Early overwork, burnout, and lack of pastoral identity Mentorship and formation in the first years of service "What is your theology of ministry?" Doctor of Ministry studies and theological self-understanding Afghanistan deployment as convergence of preparation and calling "There wasn't a day… that I didn't have a sense that God had prepared me for that particular moment." Retirement discernment and formation of Virtue in Practice Unexpected invitation to serve as Chaplain of the House Bipartisan search process and interview experience Ministry of presence during extended floor sessions and late-night votes January 6: emergency, prayer, and calm in uncertainty "It is the ninety-nine who were leaving the room that needed the shepherd." Daily opening prayer as constitutional tradition since 1789 1774 Continental Congress and Psalm 35 as precedent Political interpretation of prayer across American history "Pray for and not pray on the members." Crafting public prayer that blesses without excluding "God is on his throne. He hasn't stepped down." #MargaretGrunKibben #HouseChaplain #FaithAndLeadership #MinistryOfPresence #MilitaryChaplaincy #Prayer #ChristianVocation #Conversing Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

 Elizabeth Oldfield is a writer, coach and host of the podcast The Sacred, who has dedicated her work to exploring clarity, courage and most of all, connection. And yet – her latest book Fully Alive dives into the seven deadly sins. That's because Elizabeth believes that sins like pride, greed and wrath, are what break our connection to others. So maybe understanding how these sins are so destructive to our lives might just be a key to becoming more fully alive.  In this conversation, Pam and Elizabeth talk about why hard feelings – like anxiety, grief, and even tension with loved ones – are actually invitations. We have to let ourselves feel complicated, messy emotions in order to draw closer to others and to God.  Elizabeth also shares a reflective journaling practice to help you live out your values.  Links and resources About Elizabeth Oldfield The Sacred podcast  Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times book Fully Alive, Elizabeth's Substack  With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media & Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenSenior Producer: Clare WileyExecutive Producer: Jakob LewisProduced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Today we are led by guest Pastor Steve Dang, a Fuller Seminary graduate, who serves as Campus Pastor and Chief Ministry Officer at Valley Christian Schools in San Jose, CA. Kicking off the start our new series, the Upper Room and look into the way Jesus was an example to us. In John 13, Jesus, […]

Today we are led by guest Pastor Steve Dang, a Fuller Seminary graduate, who serves as Campus Pastor and Chief Ministry Officer at Valley Christian Schools in San Jose, CA. Kicking off the start our new series, the Upper Room and look into the way Jesus was an example to us. In John 13, Jesus, […]

Collin Cornell joins Sarah and Evan to offer a pretty unique take on the mission of the Church. Rather than being limited just to our forgiveness, Collin asks what else Christians are supposed to be doing with their lives. Old habits of looking at Genesis 1-2 and then the last few chapters of Revelation lead us to miss a lot of important data in between. Collin is a professor at Fuller Seminary and his new book is called, "God Draws Near."

As we approach Ash Wednesday and the 2026 Lenten season, Makoto Fujimura's vision of slow art, hospitality, and kenotic creativity invites us to resist the speed, fear, and fragmentation of this cultural moment by learning again how to pay attention, to rest, and to become people capable of holding one another with care even amid grief, violence, and uncertainty. In this conversation, fine artist Makoto Fujimura reflects on art, trauma, hospitality, and the slow practices that help us remain human in fractured times. "I wanted this book to serve as a portal… to recognize something as maybe ordinary or as extraordinary as holding your granddaughter." Together with Mark Labberton, Fujimura reflects on art as generativity, kenosis, and the healing practice of attention. Together they discuss slow art, Ground Zero and trauma, Japanese aesthetics and hospitality, dandelions and attention, Sabbath rest, and self-emptying love. They explore how making art helps people remain human amid violence, polarization, and technological acceleration. Episode Highlights "I wanted this book to serve as a portal… to recognize something as maybe ordinary or as extraordinary as holding your granddaughter." "We are not just making… we are being made." "God is indeed the host." "Art is… a way for us to navigate our complex times." "It is okay for me to give my life away." About Makoto Fujimura Makoto Fujimura is a contemporary artist, writer, and cultural thinker known for "slow art" rooted in Japanese Nihonga painting traditions. His work explores generativity, culture care, theology of making, and the relationship between beauty and suffering. Having lived and worked near Ground Zero after 9/11, his artistic practice reflects themes of trauma, hospitality, and new creation. He is the author of Art Is: A Journey into the Light and other books on art, faith, and culture. Helpful Links And Resources Art Is: A Journey into the Light https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300273656/art-is/ Makoto Fujimura Website https://makotofujimura.com/art International Arts Movement https://iamculturecare.com/ Art and Faith: A Theology of Making https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300285482/art-and-faith/ Show Notes Lifelong friendship, artistic influence Slow art as resistance to acceleration Minneapolis demonstrations; dignity across legal status; 50,000 people marching in extreme cold as witness to human worth "I was holding Jane." Art as portal into ordinary life Making and being made simultaneously Scientist father, generative language framework Kamakura childhood aesthetics Insider–outsider identity formation Japanese language, visual thinking, layered perception Ground Zero studio years after 9/11 shaping imagination, community awareness, and artistic responsibility Hospitality as artistic and theological practice Survivor identity discovered through conversation with Columbine survivor "God is indeed the host." Attention, "minute particulars," and gratitude amid suffering Dandelions meditation: beauty in unwanted places; seeds surrendering to wind; healing compacted soil; overlooked gifts of creation Slow art practice: pausing, observing, letting meaning emerge rather than forcing conclusions Sabbath, rest, and imagination as resistance to productivity-driven identity Kenosis paintings, gold, generosity, and self-emptying love as cultural antidote "It is okay for me to give my life away." #MakoFujimura #SlowArt #CultureCare #FaithAndArt #Hospitality #Kenosis #CreativeProcess #SpiritualFormation Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

It's not always easy to see how the four cardinal virtues connect to your everyday life. But prudence, justice, courage, and temperance are vital in helping us thrive. Lee C. Camp is a professor, speaker, writer, and theologian – as well as host of the hit podcast and public radio show No Small Endeavour. His work explores what it means to be flourishing humans - alone and together.  With his wit and wisdom in this episode, Lee will turn your preconceptions about the four virtues upside down. He shares what he learned about courage from having difficult conversations with his wife, what he learned about temperance from sharing a beer with good friends, and the ways that prudence can help us carry the heavy emotional weight of the world right now.  In this conversation, we talk about how to guard ourselves against shame, how to cultivate gladness, and how to fight powerlessness. And crucially: Lee shows us how to turn virtue into a daily habit.  Links and resources: Lee C. Camp No Small Endeavor  With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Singer-songwriter Jon Guerra joins Mark Labberton to explore devotional songwriting, public faith, and the tension between the kingdom of Jesus and American cultural power. Through music and reflection, Guerra considers how art can hold grief, courage, and hope together in turbulent times. "Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Guerra reflects on songwriting as prayer, the call to love enemies, and artistic courage in moments of cultural crisis. Together they discuss devotional music, George Herbert's influence, the Beatitudes and American culture, citizenship and immigration imagery, increasing polarization, suffering and grace, and the vocation of Christian artists. Episode Highlights "Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one." "When Jesus says to love your enemies… he is giving us a means of survival." "This is not sentimentality… the only way to resist becoming what one hates." "My songwriting… would be a means of coming into contact with the invisible God." "Beauty puts us in contact with invisible things." About Jon Guerra Jon Guerra is a singer-songwriter based in Austin, Texas, known for devotional music that blends poetry, theology, and contemporary cultural reflection. His albums include Little Songs (2015), Keeper of Days (2020), Ordinary Ways (2023), and American Gospel. Guerra has also composed music for film, including Terrence Malick's A Hidden Life (2019). The son of immigrants from Cuba and Argentina, his work often explores themes of citizenship, prayer, justice, and the teachings of Jesus. His songwriting draws inspiration from figures like George Herbert and Howard Thurman, and seeks to connect spiritual devotion with public life. Helpful Links and Resources Jon Guerra website: https://www.jonguerramusic.com/ American Gospel album: https://jonguerra.bandcamp.com A Hidden Life film: https://www.searchlightpictures.com/ahiddenlife Jesus and the Disinherited by Howard Thurman: https://www.beacon.org/Jesus-and-the-Disinherited-P1781.aspx The Porter's Gate: https://www.portersgateworship.com/ Show Notes Devotional songwriting George Herbert influence on the pursuit of prayerful craft "Music for attending to the soul." Monday morning prayer music framing devotional practice Beauty and invisible realities in artistic experience American Gospel song introduction and cultural critique Beatitudes inversion in American culture "How do I give Christ a say in this conversation?" Love Your Enemies composition and album Jesus Howard Thurman's influence on enemy-love theology (Jesus and the Disinherited) Emotional formation through news, anger, and public life Death of ego and kingdom discipleship Kierkegaard and faith beyond ideology Worship as reordering power Kingdom of Jesus song and Pilate encounter Allegiance to a greater kingdom beyond nationalism Citizenship as foreignness imagery Immigrant family background shaping songwriting Citizens song written after 2017 inauguration "Come to you because I'm confused." Five-four musical structure expressing disorientation Groaning beauty and Romans 8 resonance Artists as "holy fools" naming reality Moltmann and theology near the cross Simone Weil: gravity and grace reflection "Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one." Hashtags #JonGuerra #DevotionalMusic #LoveYourEnemies #ChristianArt #AmericanGospel #PublicFaith #Jesus #Gospel #SpiritualFormation Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

Why should we still be planting churches—and what should church planting look like in a rapidly changing world? In this episode, Loren is joined by Len Tang, Director of the Church Planting Initiative at Fuller Seminary, for a wide-ranging conversation about mission, formation, and the future of church planting. Drawing on his experience planting churches and training planters across diverse contexts, Len reframes church planting as a normal part of the church's life cycle—one that includes birth, growth, reproduction, and sometimes faithful endings. The conversation explores why growth alone is an inadequate metric, how global migration is reshaping mission fields, and why new expressions of church must be deeply contextual, diverse, and disciple-centered. Loren and Len also discuss the emotional and spiritual realities of church planting: grief, resilience, failure, and the importance of practices like Sabbath, lament, and community support. Rather than treating church planting as a silver bullet, the episode makes the case for forming leaders with character, humility, and a deep grounding in the way of Jesus. This is a thoughtful conversation for pastors, planters, denominational leaders, and anyone discerning how the church can participate faithfully in God's mission today. Topics Include Why church planting is a normal—and finite—part of church life Growth, reproduction, and the reality of church endings Global migration and new mission fields close to home Moving beyond one-size-fits-all planting models Bivocational ministry, social entrepreneurship, and sustainability Character over charisma in church planting leadership Grief, failure, and resilience in ministry Discipleship as the true measure of fruitfulness   Len Tang is the Director of the Church Planting Initiative at Fuller Seminary, and has planted two churches: Cedar Creek Church in Sherwood, Oregon, and Missio Community Church in Pasadena, CA. He received a B.S. in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science from UC Berkeley and an MDiv from Fuller Seminary. He is married to Amy and they have three young adult boys, a cat, and an electric motorcycle.   Mentioned Resources:

Peace and Forgiveness…For God's Glory In the final episode of the season, Yulee and Daniel share personal reflections on their healing journeys and emphasize the necessity of having support systems, practicing discernment, and engaging in healthy spiritual leadership that aligns with the gospel of grace. They also touch upon the 'whisper network,' the importance of fruit of the spirit, and practical ways to foster accountability and challenge toxic behaviors in ministry. 00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry 00:47 Personal Reflections and Listener Feedback 05:22 The Importance of Embracing Humanity 06:47 Evaluating Leadership and Power Dynamics 12:22 The Halo Effect and Leadership Pitfalls 20:19 DARVO and Toxic Leadership Responses 28:35 Receiving Feedback as a Leader 29:36 The Importance of Margins and Self-Care 30:10 Participating in Change and Addressing Toxicity 31:50 The Role of Integrity and Responsibility 33:34 Challenges of Speaking Up Against Toxic Leaders 42:46 The Whisper Network: Pros and Cons 48:16 The Importance of Community and Support 51:36 Concluding Thoughts and Reflections If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac

One of Rabbi Shai Held's first experiences of love was from his father, who loved him ferociously. Tragically, he died when Shai was 12 years old. The experience shook Shai's belief and trust in God.  But Rabbi Held is someone who can hold the messy contradictions of faith and love. He understands that one minute, we can feel intense love, and the next, we're full of resentment and frustration. Rabbi Held is also the most generous of teachers: he shares his struggles and doubts, in order to hold space for our own. Rabbi Held's latest book is called Judaism is About Love. It is a radical and provocative effort that points to love as the heart of the Jewish faith.   Rabbi Shai Held is president of the Hadar Institute, an educational center that builds egalitarian Jewish communities through learning, prayer, and acts of kindness. He has received the Covenant Award for excellence in Jewish education and was included multiple times in Newsweek's list of most influential rabbis in America.  You will walk away from this raw, emotional interview understanding that love is more than a sentiment - - and you'll learn that focusing on divine love is central to your everyday spiritual health.  Links and resources:  About Rabbi Shai Held  About the Hadar Institute  Answers WithHeld podcast Abraham Joshua Heschel With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter. Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

When federal agents kill civilians and public outrage sweeps the nation, who gets to define justified force and who gets to hold power accountable? The killings of Renée Good and Alex Pretti have sparked protests, national shutdowns, and fresh debate about what security should look like in America. Elizabeth Neumann, former assistant secretary for counterterrorism at the US Department of Homeland Security, joins Mark Labberton for a wide-ranging conversation about fear-based governance, moral responsibility, constitutional guardrails, and what faithful leadership looks like in a moment of political crisis. "Cruelty is a deterrent." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Neumann reflects on how Christian faith and public service shaped her national security career and why recent forceful immigration enforcement and lethal encounters challenge constitutional limits and moral clarity. Together they discuss the moral and political meaning of the Minneapolis killings, trauma and vocation, immigration enforcement and democratic consent, fear-driven leadership, and how citizens and faith communities respond when institutions break down. Episode Highlights "Cruelty is a deterrent." "I realized how much my hope and trust had been in man." "We wrapped the flag around the cross." "We see sufficiently, but not transparently." "This is not normal, and this is not okay." About Elizabeth Neumann Elizabeth Neumann is a national security expert and former assistant secretary for counterterrorism at the US Department of Homeland Security. She served across three presidential administrations, including senior roles during the George W. Bush and Trump administrations, and worked extensively on counterterrorism, prevention of political violence, and domestic extremism. A frequent public commentator and congressional witness, Neumann has become a leading voice on the moral and constitutional dangers of fear-driven governance. Her work bridges public policy, trauma studies, and Christian ethics, particularly where political power collides with faith commitments. She is the author of Kingdom of Rage, a deeply personal and analytical account of extremism, nationalism, and the cost of unexamined allegiance. Helpful Links and Resources Kingdom of Rage: The Rise of Christian Extremism and the Path Back to Peace https://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Rage-Christian-Extremism-Peace/dp/1546002057 Show Notes Elizabeth Neumann's experience growing up in North Texas Faith and party loyalty culturally fused "To be a Christian meant you were a Republican." Early fascination with politics and government service University of Texas, late 1990s political climate George W. Bush campaigns as formative training ground Entry into White House work through campaign victory Faith-based initiatives before September 11 reshaped national priorities September 11 as lived experience, not abstraction Crossing the 14th Street Bridge as the attacks unfolded "We were under attack," and nothing felt safe Fog, confusion, smoke, radios, and unanswered phone calls Trauma before resilience, fear before context Learning endurance from older colleagues who said, "We will get through this." Trauma as vocational fuel Hypervigilance, workaholism, and mission-driven identity National security as moral calling rather than career ambition Warning from a CIA colleague: rebuild a cadence of normal life Vigilance versus fear-driven overwork Marriage, family, and a season of spiritual deepening Scripture as disruption: Jeremiah 17 and misplaced trust "I realized how much my hope and trust had been in man." Public policy confidence challenged as spiritual idolatry Russell Moore sermon and the shock of naming Christian nationalism "We wrapped the flag around the cross." Cultural Christianity exposed as formation, not gospel Deconstructing politics without deconstructing faith Becoming comfortable with ambiguity and moral gray Labberton on seeing "through a glass darkly" Interpretive humility versus certainty culture Returning to government during the Trump administration Saying yes out of mission, not agreement Guardrails inside government: translating impulse into lawful action Illegal orders, pressure, and survival mode governance Lafayette Square as turning point Peaceful protesters met with militarized force Optics over constitution Immigration enforcement reframed as cruelty-based deterrence "Cruelty is a deterrent." ICE, CBP, and DHS operating outside traditional norms First, Second, and Fourth Amendment violations described Warrantless searches and administrative authority Law enforcement trained for war zones policing civilian streets Rapid ICE expansion without vetting or adequate training Fear rhetoric inside agencies creating enemy mentality Officers taught to expect violence from the public Predictable escalation and preventable deaths Moral injury to agents and terror inflicted on communities "This is not normal, and this is not okay." Democracy requires consent of the governed Public trust collapsing when law breaks the law Call for stand-down, retraining, and accountability Faithful resistance as moral clarity, not partisan alignment #ElizabethNeumann #FaithAndPolitics #NationalSecurity #ImmigrationCrisis #MoralCourage #PublicFaith Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

No Sabbath…For God's Glory? This episode of Centering features a conversation with special guest Dr. Alex Jun, research professor of Korean American Ministry and Church Leadership Studies at Fuller Seminary, and director of the Asian American Center's soon-to-be-launched Korean American Ministry initiative. With hosts Daniel and Yulee, the group delves into the concept of Sabbath and sabbaticals, examining common misunderstandings and the importance of rest for spiritual and community health. They discuss the role of cultural and parental influences on work ethics, the pitfalls of overwork, and how to honor personal limits. Personal anecdotes and practical advice for integrating restful practices into daily life offer listeners a path toward healthier spiritual leadership. 00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry 00:56 Listener Stories and Toxic Church Culture 02:22 Special Guest: Alex Jun on Sabbath and Sabbatical 05:31 Misunderstandings of Sabbath 15:09 Cultural Perspectives on Work and Rest 18:26 Immigrant Experience and Work Ethic 24:38 Leadership and Rest in Ministry 27:33 The Struggle of Self-Worth and Leadership 28:14 The Reality of Sabbaticals and Leadership 29:15 Reforming Leadership Through Sabbath 30:40 The Messianic Complex in Leadership 32:52 The Challenge of Rest for Leaders of Color 35:19 Gender Dynamics in Leadership and Rest 36:41 The Model Minority Myth and Faith 44:11 Personal Practices for Sabbath and Rest 50:06 Concluding Thoughts on Sabbath and Humanity Critical Race Theory Centering season https://on.soundcloud.com/lwSbbDg462wyBQzqZD Serge - The Gospel-Centered Life https://serge.org/the-gospel-centered-life/ Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother by Amy Chua https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/battle-hymn-of-the-tiger-mother-amy-chua/1100154952 Khora Collective https://www.khoracollective.com/

When Parker J. Palmer was a young man, he became aware of a growing unrest within him. Guided by his inner voice, he turned down prestigious university jobs and instead took a challenging, unstable job in community organizing. Parker then followed his north star again – and moved with his family to live in a radically equal Quaker community for over a decade.   Parker is an activist and author who has written 10 incredibly influential books – including Let Your Life Speak. He founded the Center for Courage & Renewal, which supports leadership, vocation, and community formation. And in 2021, the Freedom of Spirit Fund gave him their Lifetime Achievement Award in honor of work that promotes and protects spiritual freedom. Parker believes that in this moment of instability, finding our internal grounding is more important than ever – and he shares a beautiful ‘circle of trust' practice for listening deeply to others. You'll learn how others are so crucial to tuning into your true inner voice - and how listening to ourselves can then move us out into the wider world. Links and resources:  About Parker J. Palmer Parker's 10 published books About the Center for Courage & Renewal Living the Questions - Parker J. Palmer's Substack The Growing Edge, Parker's project with Carrie Newcomer Parker's collected On Being columns With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Church planting is thriving at the very moment the church faces a crisis of credibility. What if the problem isn't too few churches—but too narrow a vision of what church is for? In this episode with Mark Labberton, Brad Brisco reflects on church planting shaped by Christology before strategy, mission before institution, and incarnation before programs. Together they discuss missionary imagination in the modern West, co-vocational ministry, alternative expressions of church, micro-church networks, church growth assumptions, vocation and work, justice and proximity, and what it means to return—daily—to the ways of Jesus. –––––––––––––––– Episode Highlights "We need to help church planters think less like pastors starting a Sunday service and more like missionaries engaging a unique context." "If by church we mean buildings, then no—we don't need more of those." "Mission isn't really ours. It's about what God's already doing." "We can say we're gospel-centered and still miss the ways of Jesus." "The only way the church gets this far off is by being void of the ways of Jesus." –––––––––––––––– About Brad Brisco Brad Brisco is a missiologist and church planting leader, trainer, and writer who has spent more than twenty-five years coaching and resourcing church planters across North America. After beginning his career in the restaurant industry, Brisco entered ministry through church planting and later joined Send Network, where his work has focused on alternative expressions of church, co-vocational leadership, and missionally engaged discipleship. He also serves on the national leadership team for Forge America Mission Training Network. Brad is the co-author of "Missional Essentials," a 12-week small group study guide, "The Missional Quest: Becoming a Church of the Long Run" and "Next Door As It Is In Heaven." He is widely known for challenging church growth assumptions and for advocating Christ-centered, incarnational approaches that integrate faith, work, and neighborhood life. Brisco remains closely connected to decentralized microchurch networks and innovative models of mission in urban contexts. Follow him on X: https://x.com/bradleybrisco –––––––––––––––– Helpful Links and Resources Missional Church Network https://www.missionalchurchnetwork.com/ Send Network https://sendnetwork.com The Shaping of Things to Come – Alan Hirsch and Michael Frost https://www.amazon.com/Shaping-Things-Come-Innovation-Mission/dp/1565636597 Permanent Revolution – Alan Hirsch https://www.amazon.com/Permanent-Revolution-Apostolic-Imagination-Practice/dp/0470907746 Tampa Underground https://www.tampaunderground.com/ –––––––––––––––– Show Notes Church planting boom alongside institutional church crisis Restaurant business background shaping entrepreneurial ministry instincts Conversion, seminary, and inherited assumptions about "real" ministry Early confusion about church planting as a category From planting one church to training planters nationally Church defined beyond buildings toward embodied communities "If by church we mean buildings, then no—we don't need more of those." Missionary context of the modern West Do we need more churches or more ways of being church? Underserved neighborhoods and unengaged people groups Declining interest in traditional church programs Airplane anecdote exposing attractional church assumptions "You just need a really good sound system and a good speaker." Mission versus Sunday-centric church planting Christology–missiology–ecclesiology framework Jesus shaping mission before shaping church "Most church planters start with ecclesiology rather than the ways of Jesus." Church growth movement assumptions challenged Recapturing the missionary nature of the church Church as sent people, not religious service provider Incarnational presence in neighborhoods and workplaces "Mission isn't something we do over there." Participation in the mission of God "The mission isn't really ours—it's about what God's already doing." Individual salvation versus communal discipleship Robust Christology beyond the cross alone Incarnation, life, resurrection, and kingdom shaping mission Brokenness, proximity, and responsibility for place Mission as communal, not individual activity Bi-vocational and co-vocational ministry distinctions Marketplace calling as missional advantage Sacred–secular divide challenged Time constraints forcing alternative church models Team-based leadership as non-negotiable Theology of work as essential formation Financial freedom reshaping church planting incentives Fully funded models drifting toward attractional pressure Co-vocational longevity and sustainability Microchurch networks and decentralized leadership Tampa Underground as proof of concept Mission-first communities addressing justice and brokenness "Mission is the mother of adaptive ecclesiology." Diverse expressions emerging from contextual mission Established churches learning from church planting frameworks Incremental versus wholesale institutional change Sending churches supporting new expressions Calling the church back to the ways of Jesus "We can be gospel-centered and still miss the ways of Jesus." Credibility gap between Jesus and the church today Recalibrating discipleship for public faithfulness –––––––––––––––– #ChurchPlanting #MissionalChurch #FaithAndWork #Discipleship #ChristianLeadership #PublicFaith #Vocation –––––––––––––––– Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

Using People…For God's Glory? In this episode of the Centering, hosts Yulee Lee and Daniel Lee are joined by special guest Dr. Kevin Doi, Director of Pastoral Formation at the AAC and Affiliate Assistant Professor of Asian American Church Studies at Fuller Seminary. The conversation delves into the temptation to use people for ministry growth, the importance of honoring individual callings, and creating a church environment focused on relational health rather than numerical growth. The episode highlights practical strategies for both recognizing and countering toxic ministry practices in church leadership. 00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry 00:47 Understanding Toxic Ministry for God's Glory 02:29 Guest Introduction: Dr. Kevin Doi 04:23 The Familiarity of Oppression in Ministry 06:39 The Challenge of Healthy Boundaries 09:19 Rethinking Church Growth and Leadership 15:45 The Importance of Relational Ministry 25:11 The Role of Ministry Beyond Church Walls 25:57 Challenges of Church Leadership 27:12 Personal Experiences in Church Dynamics 29:29 The Pressure of Metrics in Ministry 32:20 Rethinking Church Leadership and Community 40:30 Practical Steps for Healthy Ministry 47:29 Concluding Thoughts and Next Episode Preview Asian American Pastoral Formation Initiative https://aac.fuller.edu/initiatives/pastoral-formation-initiative/ Leadership and the New Science by Margaret Wheatley https://margaretwheatley.com/books/leadership-and-the-new-science/ Fall 2026 Asian American Ministry Doctor of Ministry cohort, mentored by Dr. Kevin Doi and Dr. Daniel Lee https://fuller.edu/dmin/fall-2026-asian-american-ministry-cohort/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac

One of the most persistent myths about self-compassion is that it's selfish. But in reality, self-compassion connects us to the rest of humanity – and it's a critical pathway to thriving.  Dr. Kristin Neff is a pioneer in the study of self-compassion. As Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas and founding director of the Self-Compassion Institute, Kristin has spent decades researching the mind-altering power of self-compassion. Kristin's findings show that kindness is a better motivator than criticism, and she breaks down how self-compassion connects to healthy spirituality. Kristin also talks openly about how self-compassion helped her face challenges through her divorce and in parenting her son, who's on the autism spectrum.   You will walk away from this episode with a three-step plan for self-compassion - and a simple practice if you don't know where to get started. Links and resources The Self-Compassion Institute Guided practices About Dr. Kristin Neff With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Christian faith has been politicized. Arguably, this is not new. But what we see in America and other societies has a jarring impact for those who seek a credible public Christian faith. To examine how Christian faith has been politicized in recent years, preacher and public theologian Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove joins Mark Labberton, asking what moral resistance requires in this authoritarian moment. "I couldn't know Jesus in the fullness of who Jesus is without integrating faith and justice." In this episode: Wilson-Hartgrove reflects on his Southern Baptist formation, his political awakening, and a conversion that reordered his understanding of Jesus, justice, and public life. And: Trying to understand Christian nationalism, authoritarian power, poverty and race, moral fusion movements, just war theology, the discipline of prayer, and how churches can reclaim biblical values for the common good. Episode Highlights "I couldn't know Jesus in the fullness of who Jesus is without integrating faith and justice." "The radical separation of faith from justice was a way my faith was stolen from me." "We are in an authoritarian crisis that tells its own version of reality." "Christian nationalism offers an alternative reality that very sincere people come to trust." "Prayer interrupts the liturgy of consumerism and gives us another story." About Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove is an author, preacher, and public theologian working at the intersection of Christian faith, moral movements, and public life. He serves as Assistant Director of the Yale Center for Public Theology and Public Policy and has spent more than two decades in faith-rooted movements for social change. A longtime collaborator with Bishop William J. Barber II, he has helped articulate the Moral Movement's moral framing of poverty, race, and democracy. Wilson-Hartgrove is the author of multiple books on public faith, justice, and Christian discipleship, and a co-creator of the widely used prayer resource Common Prayer. He lives in North Carolina, where his work remains grounded in local churches and communities. Learn more and follow at jonathanwilsonhartgrove.com and @wilsonhartgrove Helpful Links and Resources Revolution of Values: Reclaiming Public Faith for the Common Good https://www.broadleafbooks.com/store/product/9781506484136/Revolution-of-Values Common Prayer (with Shane Claiborne) https://www.zondervan.com/p/common-prayer/ White Poverty (with William J. Barber II) https://www.uncpress.org/book/9781469661927/white-poverty/ Yale Center for Public Theology and Public Policy https://publictheology.yale.edu/ Show Notes – Growing up in rural North Carolina tobacco country; The Andy Griffith Show based on his former community – Southern Baptist formation, scripture memorization, and the King James Bible – Moral Majority era shaping faith and politics – Early ambition to serve Jesus through political power – Greyhound trip to Washington, DC with grandfather – Becoming a Senate page at sixteen – Working in the office of Strom Thurmond – Encountering the racial subtext of American politics – "There was a distance between Sunday school and what was practiced" – Learning how southern politics realigned after civil rights – Leaving partisan politics searching for faithful public life – Disorientation and not knowing another way to be Christian – Meeting a preacher shaped by the civil rights movement – Discovering a faith that named injustice without condemnation – "I needed another way to be Christian in public" – Colorblind theology and segregated church life – Conversion as seeing Jesus and reality differently – Faith reordered by relationships, not ideology – Christian opposition to the Iraq War – Traveling to Iraq during U.S. bombing – "According to just war theory, this wouldn't be a just war" – How common sense changes over time – Christian nationalism and manufactured moral narratives – Alternative realities formed by trusted information sources – "We are in an authoritarian crisis" – Mutual aid, churches, and local resistance – Poverty as a moral and political vulnerability – Prayer as resistance to consumerist liturgy – Common Prayer and the rhythm of scripture – "Prayer gives us another story to live inside" #JonathanWilsonHartgrove #Authoritarianism #PublicFaith #ChristianNationalism #MoralMovement #FaithAndJustice #CommonGood Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

CW: As a heads up, Aaron describes the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, which includes mention of rape. If this is a tender subject for you, please take care while listening. This week, Mary B is joined by biblical scholars Jennifer Garcia Bashaw and Aaron Higashi to discuss their upcoming book Serving Up Scripture: How to Interpret the Bible for Yourself and Others. The book offers accessible tools for interpreting scripture with care, curiosity, and context. Rather than a black and white understanding of the text as right or wrong, Bashaw and Higashi invite readers to ask important questions of the text: What genre is this? Who wrote it, and under what circumstances? Who benefits from this interpretation, and which social relationships are being privileged? They also encourage theological reflection, asking what a passage suggests about God.Using cooking as a guiding metaphor, Serving Up Scripture treats biblical texts as ingredients to create a meaningful interpretation. In this conversation, Mary, Jen, and Aaron explore how this approach can help defang interpretations of the Bible that have been used to harm others. As Higashi, quoting St. Augustine, reminds us, “any understanding of the Bible that increases the two fold love between human beings and each other, or human beings and God is a good interpretation.”Jennifer Garcia Bashaw is a professor at Campbell University and an ordained Baptist minister. She has a PhD in New Testament from Fuller Seminary and is the author of Scapegoats: The Gospel through the Eyes of Victims and John for Normal People: A Guide through the Drama and Depth of the Fourth Gospel.Aaron Higashi is a public Bible scholar with a PhD in biblical interpretation from Chicago Theological Seminary. He writes Bible commentaries, including 1 & 2 Samuel for Normal People: A Guide to Prophets, Kings, and Some Pretty Terrible Men, and answers Bible questions on Instagram at @abhigashi.Preorder your copy of Serving Up Scripture wherever you buy books. Follow Jen on Instagram @jgbashaw and Aaron on TikTok @aaron.higashi and Instagram @abhigashi. Jennifer and Aaron's other books are available; just search for each of their names wherever you buy books. This is our last Found Family episode for a couple of months! I am taking a much-needed break. Feel free to peruse old episodes or join the very free Found Family crew over on Substack for a free monthly message from me. Support the show

Fetishized Suffering…For God's Glory? In this episode of Centering, hosts Yulee Lee and Daniel Lee, are joined by guest Dr. Jessica ChenFeng, Associate Professor of Marriage and Family Therapy and Director of the Asian American Wellbeing Collaboratory at Fuller Seminary's Asian American Center. Together they dive into the problematic glorification of suffering, especially within Asian American Christian contexts, examining how theological and cultural influences lead to detrimental endurance practices. These cultural influences are exacerbated within a systemic evangelical framework that rewards exhaustion, silence, and compliance. The conversation touches on the distorted understanding of suffering, its impact on organizational health, and practical steps toward healing. 00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry 01:11 Exploring Suffering in Ministry 02:51 Guest Introduction: Dr. Jessica ChenFeng 04:19 Cultural and Theological Roots of Suffering 11:53 Endurance and Toxic Endurance Culture 21:34 Organizational Costs of Fetishized Suffering 23:05 The Impact of Burnout on Creativity 23:33 Generational Fracture in Organizations 24:35 Theological Perspectives on Suffering 26:25 Therapeutic Approaches to Addressing Toxic Systems 32:58 The Role of Leadership in Healthy Systems 36:27 Personal Stories and Practical Steps for Healing 42:09 The Complexity of Discernment and Wisdom 43:37 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Redemptive Suffering: Christ's Alone https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/scottish-journal-of-theology/article/abs/redemptive-suffering-christs-alone/C946F1F74F4DD229388BF58C42A6F9CE The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer https://www.fortresspress.com/store/productgroup/467/Discipleship The Integrative Mindset by Brad D. Strawn and Earl D. Bland https://www.ivpress.com/the-integrative-mindset?srsltid=AfmBOooDDJV3-4K75irArSANAu9XWbChTkJPR1SAcP_Tw4-UWT5TvL4g Executive coach, Tracey Gee https://www.instagram.com/traceygee.me/?hl=en

As violence erupts around the world, how must we respond to those who worship power? In Venezuela, global power has reshaped lives overnight, and Elizabeth Sendek and Julio Isaza join Mark Labberton to reflect on faith, fear, and Christian witness amid political upheaval in Latin America. "It made me question, if power is the ultimate good, then questions of morality or theology have no place. We have chosen our idol." Together they discuss how experiences of dictatorship, displacement, and pastoral caution shape Christian responses to invasion and regime change; the relationship between power and idolatry; the moral realities that come with violent and nonviolent action; fear and pastoral responsibility; the global impact of diaspora and migration; how prayer informs action; and how the church bears faithful witness under ruthless power. –––––––––––––––––– Episode Highlights "It made me question, if power is the ultimate good, then questions of morality or theology have no place. We have chosen our idol." "Prayer is a spiritual resource, valuable, needed, urgent every day, in times of peace and in times of crisis." "Prayer must also go alongside personal and collective actions in the defense of life, justice, freedom, reconciliation, and peace." "They are very cautious, because they are not sure who is in control." "We should not normalize violence just because it has always existed in history." –––––––––––––––––– About Elizabeth Sendek Elizabeth Sendek is a theologian and educator specializing in Latin American Christianity, theology and power, and the church's public witness under political violence. Her work draws from lived experience across Latin America, particularly contexts shaped by dictatorship, corruption, displacement, and ecclesial resilience. She has taught theology in academic and pastoral settings, engaging questions of ethics, political theology, and Christian responsibility in fragile societies. Sendek is widely respected for her ability to connect historical memory, biblical theology, and contemporary crises, especially regarding migration, authoritarianism, and Christian hope. Her scholarship and public engagement consistently emphasize prayer joined with concrete action, resisting both naïveté and cynicism. She speaks regularly to churches, students, and leaders seeking faithful responses to power and suffering. About Julio Isaza Julio Isaza, born in Colombia, is married to Katie Isaza and is the father of Samuel and Benjamin. He served with the Covenant Church of Colombia from 1995 to 2006 and later earned a master of divinity degree in Chicago, where he lived for six years. Between 2012 and 2015, he worked in the formation of university students and young professionals with Serve Globally in Medellín, Colombia. From 2016 to 2025, he served in peace-building processes in conflict areas of Colombia and also as a professor at the Biblical Seminary of Colombia, teaching in the areas of missional theology, cultural context, and holistic impact strategies. During this time, he also worked with Indigenous communities in the Colombian rainforest, engaging in oral theology initiatives. His work has focused on holistic discipleship, theological education, and peace-building. He holds a master's degree in Conflict and Peace from the University of Medellín and is currently pursuing a PhD in Theology and Peace at the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies in England. A US citizen, he resides in Minnesota with his family, where he is writing his doctoral dissertation titled "Cultivating Integral (Biblical) Peace in a Context of Socio-environmental Violence." –––––––––––––––––– Helpful Links And Resources Princeton Theological Seminary https://www.ptsem.edu Psalm 73 (New International Version) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+73&version=NIV Brownsville Covenant Church (David Swanson) https://www.brownsvillecovenant.org Christians for Social Action https://christiansforsocialaction.org –––––––––––––––––– Show Notes News of Venezuelan invasion and presidential extrication Awakening to international headlines and Colombian news coverage Power displacing morality and theology "It made me question, if power is the ultimate good, then questions of morality or theology have no place." "We have chosen our idol." Violence beyond headlines and unseen civilian consequences Personal stories from Caracas neighbourhoods and bomb damage "You see in the news about Maduro taken, but you don't see the consequences of what happened." "Some of her family was killed in Caracas because of the bombs." Childhood shaped by armed conflict in rural Colombia Guerrilla groups, military raids, and forced displacement Paramilitary violence and state-backed terror in towns "When I was a child, I would draw helicopters and militaries killing each other." Conversion shaped by studying the life of Jesus "When I began to study the gospel, I thought that Jesus's way is not a violent way." Pastoral caution under volatile political regimes Fear shaping Christian speech and public silence "For the sake of my congregation, I cannot voice any opinion." Churches continuing ministry amid uncertainty "They agreed that this time is an opportunity to share the gospel of hope." Prayer as resistance and sustenance "Prayer is a spiritual resource, valuable, needed, urgent every day, in times of peace and in times of crisis." Prayer joined with embodied action "Prayer must also go alongside personal and collective actions in the defense of life, justice, freedom, reconciliation, and peace." Long histories of dictatorship shaping Latin American theology Skepticism toward purely academic liberation theology Credibility rooted in lived solidarity with the poor Diaspora pressure and forced return narratives "Now people say Venezuelans can go back to their own country." Xenophobia and fear within host communities Displacement as ongoing trauma for migrant families Scripture shaping hope amid cynicism "When I tried to understand all this, it troubled me deeply, till I entered the sanctuary of God." Refusing to normalize power's violence "Our call is not to normalize it, nor to declare it an act of God." –––––––––––––––––– #FaithAndPolitics #LatinAmerica #ChristianWitness #PowerAndViolence #Venezuela #ChurchAndState #PublicTheology Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

In this special episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, Markus Watson reflects on the incredible six-and-a-half-year journey of the podcast, shares the story of its beginnings, and reveals exciting news about its next chapter. With a partnership ending and fresh possibilities ahead, Markus opens up about his plans for a creative sabbatical, new formats, and future topics that matter to church leaders today. Plus, he invites listeners to help shape the show's direction by joining a Zoom call and taking a quick survey.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Markus Watson celebrates the rewarding journey of hosting the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast for six and a half years.The podcast exists to help leaders cultivate a healthy inner life that informs fruitful leadership.Markus Watson announces a solo episode—no guests, no music—focused on what's next for the show.The podcast will continue after the end of its partnership with Fuller Seminary's Church Leadership Institute.Markus Watson highlights how the partnership boosted credibility and helped secure high-profile guests.Adaptive leadership has been a key theme valued by church leaders.Markus Watson anticipates experimenting with new topics and formats, including panel discussions.The podcast will expand to address leadership challenges such as polarization, church hurt, and financial anxiety.Markus Watson reiterates the ongoing mission of supporting leaders through spiritual formation.Sabbath, rest, and healthy practices remain central themes to the content.The podcast will feature a creative sabbatical, with new episodes returning in April.Encore episodes will keep the feed active during the sabbatical. Listeners are invited to fill out a short survey to influence future direction.Markus Watson encourages participation in an upcoming Zoom call for listener feedback and stories.The podcast will remain practical, addressing real challenges facing ministry leaders.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:5-Question Surveywww.markuswatson.com/surveyJoin the Zoom call on January 29, 2026markus@markuswatson.comBooks mentioned:Podcasting For DummiesSend me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

With & For is back with a brand new season exploring spiritual health.  What is healthy  spirituality exactly, and how does it help us thrive? How do spiritual practices connect us to others? And what does it mean to have a calling in life?  We have some incredible guests this season – leading thinkers from across faith, art and psychology – like author activist Parker Palmer, self-compassion pioneer Kristin Neff, developmental scientist Richard Lerner and How God Works host David DeSteno. Hosted by development psychologist, ordained minister and professor Dr. Pam King,  With & For bridges psychology and spiritual wisdom to help you thrive.  Season three launches January 26th.  The Thrive Center is an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With and For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

What happens when a long pastoral calling ends, friendships fade, and the church faces cultural fracture? Bishop Kenneth C. Ulmer (42 years in ministry at Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, CA) joins Mark Labberton for a searching conversation about retirement from pastoral ministry, loneliness, leadership, and the meaning of credible witness in the Black church today. "Ministry can be a lonely business." In this episode, Bishop Ulmer reflects on the stepping away after four decades of pastoral leadership, navigating aloneness, disrupted rhythms, and the spiritual costs of transition. Together they discuss pastoral loneliness, friendship and grief, retirement and identity, church leadership after elections, authenticity versus attraction, political division in congregations, and whether the church still centers Jesus. Episode Highlights "Ministry can be a lonely business." "[Boy, pointing to a church] Is God in there? [Pastor] Sometimes I wonder." "There's a Moses in you that will see farther than you'll go." "The tension is authenticity versus attraction." "Jesus is the answer for the world today." About Kenneth C. Ulmer Bishop Kenneth C. Ulmer is Bishop Emeritus of Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, California, where he served as senior pastor for more than four decades. A nationally respected preacher, civic leader, and mentor, Ulmer played a significant role in the spiritual and economic life of Los Angeles, including the preservation of the Forum as a major community asset. He has been a prominent voice in conversations about the Black church, urban ministry, and faithful Christian leadership amid cultural and political change. Ulmer continues to teach, preach, and advise leaders while reflecting publicly on vocation, aging, and wisdom in ministry. Learn more and follow at https://www.faithfulcentral.com Helpful Links And Resources Faithful Central Bible Church: https://www.faithfulcentral.com Conversing with Mark Labberton: https://comment.org/conversing Credible Witness podcast: https://faith.yale.edu/credible-witness Show Notes Long pastoral tenure ending after more than four decades of leadership Friendship formed through shared grief and the loss of trusted companions Prayer, friendship, and ministry forged "on our knees" at Hollywood Presbyterian Loss of regular companionship revealing unexpected loneliness and aloneness "Ministry can be a lonely business." Absence of trusted friends exposing a deep relational void Final sermon titled "I Did My Best," echoing 2 Timothy imagery and the words on Kenneth Ulmer's father's grave "I fought a good fight" as closing vocational reflection Disrupted spiritual rhythm after forty-one years of weekly preaching "My rhythm is off." Identity shaped by Sunday coming "every seven days" Question of where and how to worship after stepping away Public recognition colliding with uncertainty about purpose Therapy as a faithful response to grief and transition Energy and health without a clear channel for vocation Question of "what do you do now?" after leadership ends Seeing farther than you will go as a leadership reality Deuteronomy 34 and Moses viewing the Promised Land "There's a Moses in you that will see farther than you'll go." Passing vision to a Joshua who will go farther than he can see Grief of cheering from the sidelines while no longer on the field Wrestling with authenticity versus attraction in church leadership John 12:32 and the tension of lifting up Jesus to draw others "The tension is authenticity versus attraction." Fear of entertainment, production, and celebrity eclipsing Christ Question of whether churches are built on preaching or personality Political polarization dividing congregations and pulpits Question pastors must ask: "Who am I going to be after this ballot?" Kingdom identity beyond donkey or elephant, only the Lamb "Holding up the bloodstained banner" as faithful witness Doors of the church open—how wide are they, and for whom? Concern for credibility after the benediction and after the election Civic engagement without surrendering theological center Preserving community good beyond church walls and buildings Forum purchase as economic stewardship, not church expansion Question of whether God is still "in that house" How much of the God inside gets outside into the neighborhood? Jesus as the enduring answer amid cultural confusion Worship song, "We Offer Jesus" "Jesus in the morning, Jesus at noonday, Jesus in the midnight hour." Call to be the extended incarnation in ordinary life: "You are the temple." "Who are you turning away that he [Jesus] would not turn away?" #KennethCUlmer #PastoralLeadership #ChurchAndCulture #CredibleWitness #FaithAfterRetirement #AuthenticityVsAttraction Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

On this podcast, I am committed to helping listeners (and myself) understand beauty in its truest, most life-giving sense. And that is why I am so excited to start the new year with David Taylor as today's guest.David Taylor is a theologian, author, speaker, priest, and director of initiatives in art and faith. As Associate Professor of Theology & Culture at Fuller Theological Seminary, he has lectured widely on the arts, from Thailand to South Africa. He has also written for The Washington Post, Image Journal, Theology Today, Worship, Religion News Service, and Christianity Today, among others. Additionally, in 2016 he produced a short film with Bono and Eugene Peterson, entitled Bono and Eugene Peterson: THE PSALMS.In today's episode, David not only gives us a behind-the-scenes look at his class on beauty at Fuller Seminary, but also shares his own Biblically grounded understanding of what true beauty is. David also uncovers lies about beauty he sees at work in Western society, discusses how we might navigate aging in a broken world, and helps us see how we can know God in and through the arts. My hope is that this conversation will leave you feeling deeply encouraged, as you are reminded that true beauty is alive and at work in the world.David's latest book: Naming the Spirit: Pneumatology Through the Arts Buy Melissa L. Johnson's book, Soul-Deep Beauty: Fighting for Our True Worth in a World Demanding Flawless, here. Learn more about Impossible Beauty and join the community here.

Sacrificial Faith…For God's Glory? In this episode of Centering, hosts Yulee Lee and Daniel Lee discuss the concept of sacrificial faith, critiquing the unhealthy pressure to sacrifice personal well-being for ministry. They emphasize the importance of discerning genuine spiritual practices, recognizing God's presence in all aspects of life, and living with integrity. Join the conversation to rethink what true, life-giving sacrifice means in the context of healthy spiritual leadership. 00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry 01:11 Personal Stories of Sacrifice 03:02 Theological Insights on Sacrifice 06:14 Equating Church with God 12:20 Toxic Leadership and Manipulation 19:04 Living Sacrifices in Scripture 22:05 Understanding True Obedience to God 23:03 The Importance of Feeling Loved by God 23:49 Challenges of Growing Up in Church 24:46 Finding Joy in Serving God 25:42 Integrating God into Everyday Life 27:39 The Danger of Spiritual Disciplines Becoming Idols 35:16 Jesus' Invitation to Rest 40:04 Practical Ways to Live Out Faith 43:01 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Khora Collective https://khoracollective.com/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac

Can joy be anything but denial in a rage-filled public life? Michael Wear joins Mark Labberton to reframe politics through the kingdom logic of hope, agency, and practices of silence and solitude. As 2025 closes amid political discord, we might all ask whether joy can be real in public life—without denial, escapism, or contempt. "… Joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing." In this conversation, Michael Wear and Mark Labberton reflect on joy, hope, responsibility, and agency amid a reaction-driven politics. Together they discuss the realism of Advent; the limits of our control; how kingdom imagination reframes anger; hope beyond outcomes, dignity under threat, and practices (including silence and solitude) that restore clarity. Episode Highlights "Joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing. … Joy is not a technique to then get people to do what you want them to do." "God's Kingdom is the range of his effective will." " Someone whose hope is rightly placed sees that a dignity denying culture does not have the final say." "Our will is effective and those things in which our will is not effective." "The pattern of domination and violence is an old one." About Michael Wear Michael Wear is the Founder, President, and CEO of the Center for Christianity and Public Life, a nonpartisan nonprofit that contends for the credibility of Christian resources in public life, for the public good. He has served for more than a decade as a trusted advisor to civic and religious leaders on faith and public life, including as a presidential campaign and White House staffer. He is the author of The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life and Reclaiming Hope: Lessons Learned in the Obama White House About the Future of Faith in America. Learn more and follow at https://www.michaelwear.com. Helpful Links and Resources Michael Wear, The Spirit of Our Politics https://www.zondervan.com/9780310367239/the-spirit-of-our-politics/ Michael Wear, Reclaiming Hope https://www.thomasnelson.com/9780718082338/reclaiming-hope/ Center for Christianity and Public Life https://www.ccpubliclife.org/ A National Call to Silence and Solitude https://www.silenceandsolitude.org/ Dallas Willard: "Personal Soul Care" https://dwillard.org/resources/articles/personal-soul-care Howard Thurman, Jesus and the Disinherited https://www.beacon.org/Jesus-and-the-Disinherited-P1781.aspx Show Notes End of 2025, cusp of Christmas; fraught public moment; joy as the lynchpin for faithful presence in politics and public life Joy held with pain, suffering, complexity Refusing denial while trusting a God who relentlessly pursues the world in love and hope Joy intertwined with hope, responsibility, agency Where does responsibility end and faithful agency begin? "Willard would say joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing." " It is very difficult to have joy if you are taking responsibility for things that are not your responsibility." Public life as joyless space; lacking imagination for joy amid provocation, antagonism, and constant political showmanship "If there are places in our life where we can't conceive of joy, it's a problem with our view of God." Misplaced responsibility, misplaced hope; joy collapses when taking on burdens that aren't ours and treating agency as ultimate "God's kingdom is the range of his effective will." "We each have our own little kingdoms … where what we say to be done is done." Politics reveals limits; a clarity about what we can do, what we can't do, and what we must import into the rest of life "Our will is effective, and there are things in which our will is not effective." "Faithfulness is not the ability to determine a righteous outcome … to everything in which our lives touch." False responsibility, obscured agency Are we taking charge of what isn't ours while ignoring the real choices we do have? "That's a recipe for joylessness." Poked and prodded by provocations; entertainment, antagonisms, and helplessness normalize reaction and justify complicity Anger as political fuel Many assume that raising your voice is the only faithful posture inside the public arena. "I've had people respond to me: 'How am I going to get anything done in politics without anger?'" "Political imagination has been taken over by a political logic as opposed to a kingdom logic." Relearning responsibility and agency; hope not grounded in our effectiveness, but in what God is doing beyond our reach. "Ultimate hope lies outside of the range of our effective will." "It is in that realm in which we are perfectly safe." Hope is for a life that pervades all things. "So when your hope is in the right place, you can hope for a whole range of things." " Someone whose hope is rightly placed sees that a dignity denying culture does not have the final say." Hope and joy "when your back is against the wall" Allen Temple Baptist Church: Joy at the margins of culture Fannie Lou Hamer Howard Thurman, Jesus and the Disinherited First Presbyterian Church in Evanston, IL Michael Wear, The Spirit of Our Politics Psalm 23 as distress-psalm: Enemies are still present, yet God leads beside still waters and cares most in greatest distress. "Take off the old self with its practices and put on the new self." "Put on Christ now in a way that will affect everything around us." Herod: The paranoid leader Advent into Christmastide—what it means to dwelling in Emmanuel "This is why the incarnation is such an extraordinarily important cornerstone: It's that God enters in through Jesus into our world, in a world in which, yes, there may be great praises in heaven and on earth from those who understand something at least of who he is and what he's there to do. But it also lands him in a world of immediate physical and familial vulnerability of political and social, if not military, violence." Are we protected from vulnerability, or living in precarity? The pattern of domination and violence Refusing forgetfulness as 2026 approaches with fresh pressures and fresh calling. National call to silence and solitude; disinvesting from reactionary instincts to engage the world with renewed vision and clarity. silenceandsolitude.org "Silence and solitude… can infuse your public activity with right vision and right clarity." #MichaelWear #MarkLabberton #ChristianPublicLife #ChristianPolitics #SpiritualFormation #Joy #Advent #SilenceAndSolitude #Hope #PublicWitness Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

What if taking Mary seriously actually deepens, rather than distracts from, devotion to Jesus? Art historian and theologian Matthew Milliner joins Mark Labberton to explore that possibility through history, theology, and the Incarnation. In a searching conversation about Mary, the meaning of Marian devotion, and the mystery of the Incarnation, they draw from early Christianity, Protestant theology, and global Christianity, as Milliner reframes Mary as a figure who deepens devotion to Christ rather than distracting from it. "I don't see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution of revolutions in regards to the way that women are understood." In this episode, they reflect on Mary as presence, witness, and theological key to understanding God's entry into human life. They discuss Marian devotion before the Reformation, excess and restraint in Christian practice, the Incarnation's implications for embodiment and gender, Protestant fears and recoveries, global Marian traditions, grief and discipleship, and why Mary ultimately points beyond herself to Christ. Episode Highlights "I love Jesus so much that I love his mom too. Isn't she great too?" " What relationship do you have in your life where if you knew the parents of the person you're in relationship with, that would damage the relationship? … It's a sign of deep intimacy." "There is no Christianity without Mary. That's how God came into the world." "She is my tutorial in grief." "If it's the real Mary you're dealing with, she will point you to Jesus." "The answer to the abuse is to point to the best use." "She became a presence in the church for me." "I don't see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution of revolutions." About Matthew Milliner Matthew J. Milliner is Associate Professor of Art History at Wheaton College, where he specializes in early Christian, Byzantine, and global Christian art. His scholarship explores theology through visual culture, with particular attention to Mary, the Incarnation, and Christian devotion across traditions. Milliner is widely published in academic journals and popular outlets, including Comment Magazine, where he has written extensively on Marian theology and Christian art. He is a frequent speaker and lecturer on Christianity and aesthetics, and his work bridges evangelical theology, Anglican practice, and historic Christian tradition. Milliner is also known for his teaching on icons, pilgrimage, and the relationship between art, doctrine, and discipleship. Helpful Links and Resources Read Matthew Milliner's column, Material Mysticism, for Comment Magazine https://comment.org/columns/material-mysticism/ Matthew Milliner, Mother of the Lamb: The Story of a Global Icon: https://www.amazon.com/Mother-Lamb-Story-Global-Icon/dp/1506478751 Matthew Milliner faculty page: https://www.wheaton.edu/academics/faculty/matthew-milliner/ Stephen Shoemaker, Mary in Early Christian Faith and Devotion: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300217216/mary-in-early-christian-faith-and-devotion/ Rosemary Radford Ruether, Goddesses and the Divine Feminine: https://www.ucpress.edu/books/goddesses-and-the-divine-feminine/paper William Johnston, The Wounded Stag: https://www.harvard.com/book/9780823218394 The Angelus Prayer (recited in this conversation): https://www.usccb.org/prayers/angelus Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham: https://www.walsinghamanglican.org.uk Show Notes Opening prayer invoking Mary's witness, comfort, and example as a way of drawing listeners toward Christ rather than away from him Evangelical identity reclaimed as gospel proclamation rather than political alignment or cultural branding Early Marian devotion emerging "early and often" in Christian history, grounded in Jerusalem rather than later medieval invention "I love Jesus so much that I love his mom too. Isn't she great too?" Honoring Mary without worship, framed through Revelation imagery of the bride and the people of God Archaeological and manuscript discoveries reshaping assumptions about early Christian practice Marian devotion expanding intimacy rather than competing with Christological focus Newman on devotion requiring excess, extravagance, and emotional overflow to be genuinely human "Let the Christian Church let it boil over every once in a while." Reformation dynamics producing extremes: feverish excess on one side and stone-cold rejection on the other Rosemary Radford Ruether, Goddesses and the Divine Feminine Pagan goddess traditions contrasted with Marian imagery and their treatment of women's bodies Aphrodite imagery as endorsement of male desire versus Marian imagery as reverence for God's entry into flesh "Find me an image of Mary that does anything close to that." Incarnation reshaping how Christians see the female body, sexuality, and dignity "This is the body God entered the world through." The angel Gabriel's Annunciation and Mary's consent Annunciation framed as consent rather than coercion, with Luke emphasizing Mary's agency "Nothing happens to her until she consents." Mary as theological answer to pornographic and exploitative religious imaginations "I don't see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution of revolutions." Guadalupe as evangelistic bridge for indigenous peoples pointing toward Christ without blood sacrifice Mary's global accessibility across Muslim, Hindu, and non-Christian contexts "She is a real evangelist, Mary." Walsingham pilgrimage as Anglican recovery of Marian devotion Marian attraction functioning as penumbra drawing outsiders toward Christianity "If it's the real Mary you're dealing with, she will point you to Jesus." Abuse of Marian devotion acknowledged alongside historical self-correction within Catholicism "The answer to the abuse is to point to the best use." Matthew Milliner's personal spiritual journey from childhood Catholicism through evangelical conversion Anti-Mary phase followed by rediscovery through art history and theology "She became a presence in the church for me." Mary understood as presence rather than abstract idea, without becoming divine William Johnson's, The Wounded Stag: God is beyond gender Devotional practice as tributary flowing into Trinitarian worship rather than replacing it "There is no Christianity without Mary. That's how God came into the world." Angelus prayer as scriptural meditation culminating in Trinitarian praise "Pour your grace into our hearts, O Lord." Psychological and spiritual healing through Marian presence without theological confusion Mary as guide for grief through images of sorrow and seven swords "She is my tutorial in grief." Black Madonna traditions interpreted through devotion, time, soot, and divine darkness Darkness as sign of overwhelming divine light rather than absence of God #ConversingPodcast #MatthewMilliner #MaryTheology #Incarnation #ChristianTradition #AdventReflections #FaithAndArt Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

Spirit's Anointing…For God's Glory? In this episode of Centering, hosts Yulee Lee and Daniel Lee explore the unlikely convergence of the biblical story of Samson, fermentation of kimchi, and iconic Jane Austen characters. The topic, Spirit's Anointing…For God's glory? highlights the dangers of conflating giftedness with divine favor, the importance of character over charisma, and the critical need for communal discernment and accountability structures, emphasizing that the anointing of the Spirit is made apparent through the evidence of the fruits of the Spirit. They draw on theological insights, personal anecdotes, and historical examples to emphasize the potential pitfalls of toxic ministry. The episode underscores the necessity for spiritual leaders to embody Christ-like humility and to engage in practices that promote healthy, sustainable, and God-centered leadership. 00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry 01:16 Recap of Previous Episode 01:54 The Dangers of Public Figures and Parasocial Relationships 04:36 The Misuse of Spiritual Anointing 07:44 The Importance of Communal Discernment 08:56 Character vs. Charisma in Leadership 14:37 The Role of Wisdom and Maturity 16:07 Distinguishing True Movements of God 18:06 White Christian Nationalism and NAR 20:34 The Importance of Accountability in Leadership 24:36 Avoiding Desperation in Ministry 26:37 The Dangers of Familiarity with Holy Things 29:53 Final Thoughts and Reflections The Violent Take It by Force by Matthew D. Taylor https://www.broadleafbooks.com/store/product/9781506497785/The-Violent-Take-It-by-Force About the New Apostolic Reformation https://www.npr.org/2011/10/03/140946482/apostolic-leader-weighs-religions-role-in-politics If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac

How should Christian faith shape work in an era of pluralism, fear, and systemic inequality? Sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund (Rice University) is presenting new insights for faith at work through data, theology, and lived experience. "People love to talk about individual ethics … but what was really hard for them to think about was, what would it mean to make our workplace better as a whole?" In this episode, Ecklund joins Mark Labberton to reflect on moving from individual morality toward systemic responsibility, dignity, and other-centred Christian witness at work. Together they discuss faith and work, the gender and race gaps created by systemic injustice, fear and power, religious diversity, rest and human limits, gender and racial marginalization, and the cost of a credible Christian witness. Episode Highlights "People love to talk about individual ethics." "What would it mean to make our workplace better as a whole?" "People are much more apt to take us seriously if we first take them seriously." "Suppression of faith in particular is not the answer." "God is God and I am not." About Elaine Howard Ecklund Elaine Howard Ecklund is professor of sociology at Rice University and director of the Boniuk Institute for the Study and Advancement of Religious Tolerance. She is a leading sociologist of religion, science, and work whose research examines how faith operates in professional and institutional life. Ecklund has led large-scale empirical studies on religion in workplaces and scientific communities, supported by the National Science Foundation, Templeton Foundation, and Lilly Endowment. She is the author or co-author of several influential books, including Working for Better, Why Science and Faith Need Each Other, and Science vs. Religion. Her work informs academic, ecclesial, and public conversations about pluralism, justice, and moral formation in modern society. Learn more and follow at https://www.elaineecklund.com and https://twitter.com/elaineecklund Helpful Links And Resources Working for Better (IVP): https://www.ivpress.com/working-for-better Why Science and Faith Need Each Other (IVP): https://www.ivpress.com/why-science-and-faith-need-each-other Elaine Howard Ecklund website: https://www.elaineecklund.com Rice University Boniuk Institute: https://boniuk.rice.edu Conversing with Mark Labberton: https://comment.org/conversing Show Notes Sociological study of religion, work, and group behavior Christian faith taken seriously at personal and academic levels Ecklund's former research focus on science as a workplace environment Expanding faith-at-work research beyond scientific communities Compartmentalized Christian faith and the fear of offending colleagues Friendship and collaboration emerging from leadership retreats Large-scale data-driven study on religion in changing workplaces Religious pluralism at work and changing workplace demographics Writing for Christian audiences shaped by empirical research From individual ethics toward systemic responsibility at work "People love to talk about individual ethics." Systemic injustice blind spots Moral shorthand focused on time sheets and office supplies Organizational leadership and culture change Difficulty imagining organizational or structural workplace change Fear of retaliation when confronting unjust systems Responsibility for workplace realities Power underestimated by those holding leadership positions Costly examples of speaking up against workplace injustice Christian fear of marginalization in pluralistic environments Suppression of religious expression as common workplace response Suppression versus accommodation: "Suppression of faith in particular is not the answer." Religious diversity as unavoidable reality of modern work Other-centered faith rooted in dignity of every person Imago Dei shaping engagement across religious difference "People are much more apt to take us seriously if we first take them seriously." Racialized religious minorities: the double marginalization of racial minorities of faith Gender inequity and underexamined workplace power dynamics Faith-based employee groups Fear masquerading as anger in cultural and religious conflict Workplaces as rare spaces for meaningful civic encounter Justice beyond activism Rest as theological foundation for justice and leadership Limits, Sabbath, and resisting productivity as ultimate value "God is God and I am not." Human limits in leadership Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary. #FaithAndWork #ElaineHowardEcklund #ChristianEthics #WorkplaceJustice #ReligiousPluralism #RestAndFaith

Mary B is joined by Kat Armas to discuss her new book, Liturgies for Resisting Empire: Seeking Community, Belonging, and Peace in a Dehumanizing World. This episode begins with Armas offering an invocation — as she does at the start of each chapter of her latest book. Her invocation is aptly a liturgy for resisting empire. Armas focuses on the important of community as resistance because as she says, “friendship… is the death of empire.” It is in community where one finds new ways to resist and care for their neighbor. Empire insidiously convinces us to think in binary and Armas urges the listener to hold on to complexity in a world that often demands simplicity.Kat Armas (MDiv, MAT, Fuller Theological Seminary) is a Cuban American writer and podcaster and the recipient of Fuller Seminary's Frederick Buechner Award for Excellence in Writing. She is pursuing a ThM at Vanderbilt Divinity School. Armas is the author of three books, Abuelita Faith, Sacred Belonging, and Liturgies for Resisting Empire. She has written for Christianity Today, Sojourners, Relevant, Christians for Biblical Equality, Fuller Youth Institute, Fathom magazine, and Missio Alliance.Get Liturgies for Resisting Empire wherever you buy books (check Baker Books to see if it's still on sale there!). Follow Kat on socials @kat_armas. Check out Kat's Substack at katarmas.substack.comJoin the Found Family crew over on Substack and get your free copy of the Found Family Cheat Sheet! Support the show

Andy Mainiero's missional experience started with obedience and small beginnings. He started house churches and clubs for youth. These ministries grew, and as they grew, so did Andy's awareness of trauma and its impact. But when Andy and his wife adopted children from the foster care system, he dove into learning all he could about trauma--or more importantly, what it means to be trauma transformed.Today, Andy is an assistant professor of mission theology at Fuller Seminary, and the founder and director of the Shalom Gospel Network—a global impact network that promotes and facilitates trauma-transforming mission and ministry. Listen in as Andy shares his biblical interpretation of Shalom, wholeness, and what it looks like to enjoy wholeness in the midst of pain. "Shalom is the way things were meant to be..it's never fully complete. It's an ongoing journey of wholing all our parts, putting them back together into its intended shalom."What better way to close the year than with an episode focused on Shalom. Join us for our final episode of 2025! To connect with Andy: ajmainiero2@gmail.com

As global powers double down on militarism and defense, Daniel Zoughbie argues that the most transformative force in the Middle East has always come from citizen diplomacy. A complex-systems scientist and diplomatic historian, Zoughbie joins Mark Labberton to explore how twelve U.S. presidents have "kicked the hornet's nest" of the modern Middle East. Drawing on his work in global health and his new book Kicking the Hornet's Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump, Zoughbie contrasts the view from refugee camps and microclinic networks with the view from the Oval Office, arguing that American security rests on a three-legged stool of defense, diplomacy, and development. He explains why Gerald Ford stands out as the lone president who truly leveraged diplomacy, how the Marshall Plan model of enlightened self-interest can guide policy now, and why nationalism, not mere economics, lies at the heart of Gaza's future. Throughout, he presses listeners toward "citizen diplomacy" that resists pride, militarism, and fatalism. Episode Highlights "We've constantly ignored diplomacy." " You don't have to be enemies with people to get them to do what is in their own self-interest." "You can build skyscrapers in Gaza. You can build the Four Seasons in Gaza and it's not going to work. You're just going to have another war until you address that core issue of nationalism." "These three Ds defense diplomacy development are the three legged stool of American security and we know how important diplomacy and development are." "From Truman to Trump, only one president, and that is Gerald Ford, surprisingly the only unelected president, gets this right." "Pride—national pride, the pride of any one individual—is toxic. It's toxic to the individual. It's toxic to the nation. It's toxic to the world." "Foreign policymaking is not just something for secretaries of state and those in power. All of us in a democracy have a role to play." Helpful Links and Resources Kicking the Hornet's Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Kicking-the-Hornets-Nest/Daniel-E-Zoughbie/9781668085226 American University of Beirut (founded as Syrian Protestant College), a key example of long-term educational diplomacy https://www.aub.edu.lb Al-Ahli Arab (Gaza Baptist) Hospital in Gaza City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital Max Weber, "Politics as a Vocation" https://open.oregonstate.education/sociologicaltheory/chapter/politics-as-a-vocation About Daniel Zoughbie Daniel E. Zoughbie is a complex-systems scientist, historian, and expert on presidential decision-making. He is associate project scientist at UC Berkeley's Institute of International Studies, a faculty affiliate of the UCSF/UCB Center for Global Health Delivery, Diplomacy, and Economics, and principal investigator of the Middle East and North Africa Diplomacy, Development, and Defense Initiative. He is the author of Kicking the Hornet's Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump and of Indecision Points: George W. Bush and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. His award-winning research has appeared in journals such as PLOS Medicine, Mayo Clinic Proceedings, and Social Science and Medicine. A Phi Beta Kappa graduate of UC Berkeley, he studied at Oxford on a Marshall Scholarship and completed his doctorate there as a Weidenfeld Scholar. Show Notes Middle East Background and Microclinic Origins Daniel Zoughbie recalls visiting the Middle East as a child—"frankly horrified" by what he saw UC Berkeley protests over the Iraq War and post-9/11 U.S. policy in the region Metabolic disease and type 2 diabetes as an overlooked "greatest killer in the region." Neighbors in the West Bank sharing food, medicine, and blood-pressure cuffs—leads to the "micro clinic" concept Good health behaviors, like bad ones and even violence, can be contagious through social networks Social Networks, Anthropology, and Security Social anthropology, political science, and international relations Medical problems as simultaneously biological and sociological problems Understanding Middle East security demands attention to decisions "at the very bottom" as well as "the view from above" October 7 and 9/11 illustrate how small groups of people can "change the world with their decisions." Complex Systems and Foreign Policy Complexity is always increasing, and diplomacy and development exist to slow it down. Definition of "complex system": as one where many inputs produce outcomes that cannot be reduced to single causes. "We almost have a new law here, which is that complexity is always increasing in the universe. And the role of diplomacy and development, as I see it in international relations, is to slow things down. It's to stop complexity from advancing so that people have time to cool their tempers and to solve major security crises." Type 2 diabetes as a model for thinking about how city planning, economics, relationships, and habits interact He applies that lens to international relations: nations, leaders, institutions, and history form a "cascade of complexity." From Refugee Camps to Presidential Palaces George Shultz and Tony Blair: decision-makers as "real human beings," not abstractions Theological and ideological forces—such as certain apocalyptic readings of scripture—that shape U.S. foreign policy Gnosticism and eschatology within American right-wing Christianity Painstaking global health work on the ground and sweeping decisions made in Washington, Brussels, or New York Twelve Presidents and One Exception Kicking the Hornet's Nest: analysis of twelve presidents from Truman to Trump through the lens of Middle East decision-making Core claim: Only Gerald Ford truly rebalanced the three Ds of defense, diplomacy, and development. U.S. policy in the Levant: heavy reliance on militarism, coups, and covert actions while underinvesting in diplomacy and development Claim: "Far better alternatives were on the table" for every administration, yet consistently passed over. Gerald Ford, Kissinger, and the Path to Peace Daniel contends that the 1967 and 1973 wars were both preventable and nearly became global nuclear catastrophes. Ford inherits the presidency amid Watergate and national division, but keeps Henry Kissinger at State. Ford presses Israel and Egypt toward serious negotiations, empowering Kissinger's shuttle diplomacy and personal ties. A sharply worded letter threatening to "reconsider" the U.S.–Israel relationship Ford's diplomacy and the development of Camp David and the enduring Egypt–Israel peace based on "land for peace." Pride, Personality, and Presidential Failure Did Ford's temperament keep him from making himself the center of the story? In contrast, many presidents and other leaders write themselves "thickly" into the narrative of the conflict. Pride—personal and national—as a toxic force that repeatedly undermines U.S. policy The Iraq War and democracy-promotion agenda and the self-defeating nature of moralistic, militarized crusades Marshall Plan and Enlightened Self-Interest George Marshall and harsh punishment after World War I helped produce Nazi Germany The Marshall Plan models an "enlightened way of viewing the American self-interest": rebuilding Europe and Japan to secure U.S. security. He contrasts that with the neglect of the Levant, where aid and institution-building never matched military activism. Marshall's genius lies in locating the intersection between others' deepest needs and American capabilities. Militarism, Iran, and Nuclear Risk Recent U.S.–Israel–Iran confrontation as an "extremely dangerous moment"—with 60 percent enriched uranium unaccounted for JCPOA as an imperfect but effective diplomatic achievement, but dismantled in favor of militarism Claim: Bombing Iran scattered nuclear material and increased complexity rather than reducing the threat. He warns that one nuclear device could be delivered by low-tech means—a boat or helicopter—endangering civilians and U.S. forces in the Gulf. The only realistic path forward: renewed multilateral diplomacy between U.S., Israel, Iran, Russia, China, Pakistan, India, and regional actors Ethical Realism and Max Weber "Ethical realism"—Max Weber's distinction between the ethic of the gospel and the ethic of responsibility Statespeople bear responsibility for using force, yet the greatest can still say "here I stand and I can do no other." Claim: True leadership seeks a higher ethic where national interest aligns with genuine concern for others. Gaza, Nationalism, and Two States Welcoming the end of active war between Israel and Hamas and critiquing reconstruction plans that ignore politics Conflict is fundamentally nationalist: a struggle for self-determination by both Jewish and Palestinian peoples Claim: Economic development without a credible political horizon will not prevent "another October 7th and another terrible war." In his view, only partition of mandatory Palestine into two states can meet legitimate self-determination claims. For example, "You can build skyscrapers in Gaza… and it's not going to work" without addressing nationalism. Citizen Diplomacy and a Better Way Foreign policy is not only the work of secretaries of state; democratic citizens have responsibilities. American University of Beirut and the Gaza Baptist Hospital as fruits of citizen diplomacy Claim: Educational and medical institutions can change lives more profoundly and durably than military campaigns. Redirecting resources from bombs to universities and hospitals to reduce the need for future military interventions An invitation to citizen diplomacy: informed voting, sustained attention, and creative engagement for a more just peace Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

Authoritarianism…For God's Glory? In this episode of the Centering: the Asian American Christian Podcast, hosts Yulee Lee and Daniel Lee are joined by guest Gabriel Jay Catanus (Director of the Filipino American Ministry Initiative and Affiliate Assistant Professor of Theology and Ethics at Fuller Seminary; Lead Pastor of Garden City Covenant Church - Chicago), who shares insights on the pitfalls of authoritarianism within church leadership, drawing parallels from historical examples like Dietrich Bonhoeffer's criticism of Nazi Germany and discussing how immigrant church communities can inadvertently foster toxic leadership dynamics. The conversation also highlights the importance of plurality, cultural sensitivity, and self-reflection in cultivating healthy spiritual leadership. The episode concludes with practical advice for leaders to avoid believing their own hype and for communities to focus on collaborative and ethical leadership practices. 00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry 00:48 Understanding Authoritarianism in Ministry 03:11 Guest Introduction: Gabriel Jay Catanus 04:49 Authority and Power Dynamics in Churches 08:43 Cultural and Spiritual Influences on Leadership 12:35 Charismatic Authority and Its Challenges 21:02 Navigating Spiritual Power and Leadership 27:24 Muscular Christianity and Nazi Ideology 28:10 Identifying Authoritarian Leaders 29:26 Embracing Plurality in Leadership 31:20 Efficiency vs. Plurality in Ministry 32:18 Challenges for Asian American Leaders 35:59 God's Relationship with Authority 37:13 Personal Reflections on Leadership 46:42 Concluding Thoughts and Future Topics Dr. Gabriel Jay Catanus https://www.gabrieljcatanus.com/ Fuller's Asian American Center aac.fuller.edu The Grand Inquisitor by Dostoevsky https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8578/8578-h/8578-h.htm The Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-brothers-karamazov-a-new-translation-by-michael-r-katz-fyodor-dostoevsky/aefeb2fa8f45adb1 Bonhoeffer's 1933 radio address https://books.google.com/books?id=PF1cpVfZS60C&pg=PA268&lpg=PA268&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac

Rabbi Michael G. Holzman joins Mark Labberton to explore the formation of his Jewish faith, the pastoral realities of congregational life, and the multi-faith initiative he helped launch for the nation's 250th anniversary, Faith 250. He reflects on his early experiences of wonder in the natural world, the mentors who opened Torah to him, and the intellectual humility that shapes Jewish approaches to truth. Their conversation moves through the unexpected depth of congregational ministry, the spiritual and emotional weight of the pandemic, the complexities of speaking about God in contemporary Jewish life, and the role of cross-faith friendships. The episode concludes with Rabbi Holzman's reflections on how the suffering in Israel and Palestine reverberates among Jews and Muslims in America. Episode Highlights "I think we are desperately in need of ways to get Americans to agree that they're in the same community… simply by naming the Declaration of Independence as a piece of shared American scripture… we are inviting people and really challenging ourselves to think about the words in those documents seriously, and prayerfully." "My formation as a child was relatively non-theological… my mother just would sit there and say, 'Do you feel that wind?' And for me, knowing that it was in a national park mattered… being in such a grand and awesome space, under the enormity of the heavens." "The pursuit of truth with epistemic humility really became the cornerstone…if Moses wasn't allowed to see God's face, I'm never gonna see God's face—and yet we are all still pursuing what the meaning of this incredible text is." "I was a little bit unprepared… until you experience it as a pastor, you don't really understand the power of those things. That rootedness in this particular congregation gave me a sense of existential meaning that I didn't anticipate." "The thing that got me through that darkness was Saturday morning Torah study… just being there with the text and with these faces and these people… that to me was my path through the darkness." "When people are sitting over the text, the most palpable experience of God is this moment of understanding another human being… it's so vulnerable and it's so fleeting and it's so beautiful." "There is an experience happening on the ground of absolute suffering and horror on both sides… and there's a parallel experience happening for Jews and Muslims in America. It's powerful, spiritually powerful, emotionally powerful, and to people's core." Helpful Links and Resources Faith 250 https://www.faith250.org/ "The New Colossus" by Emma Lazarus https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46550/the-new-colossus "What to the Slave Is the Fourth of July?" by Frederick Douglass https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/what-to-the-slave-is-the-fourth-of-july/ "America the Beautiful" by Katherine Lee Bates https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/america-beautiful-1893 I and Thou, Martin Buber https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780684717258/i-and-thou About Rabbi Michael G. Holzman Rabbi Michael G. Holzman is the Senior Rabbi of Northern Virginia Hebrew Congregation (NVHC), where he has served since 2010. His work focuses on spiritual formation, civic engagement, multi-faith partnership, and the cultivation of communities grounded in dignity, learning, and ethical responsibility. He founded the Rebuilding Democracy Project, which developed into Faith 250, a national multi-faith initiative preparing communities for the 250th anniversary of the United States through shared reflection on foundational American texts. He teaches and writes on Jewish ethics, civic life, and spiritual resilience. Show Notes Faith 250 American Scripture Faith 250 as a response to political despair and a way for clergy to exercise agency Four core American texts explored as shared scripture across faiths Intent to counter politicization of the 250th anniversary through spiritual depth Multi-faith relationships grounding the initiative in shared civic and moral concern Emphasis on clergy as conveners of spiritually safe, local containers for reading The Declaration, New Colossus, Frederick Douglass, and America the Beautiful as "scriptural" portals to civic meaning "American scripture" as a means of naming shared identity and shared community Jewish Formation and Torah Childhood shaped by nature, wonder, and ethical awareness rather than synagogue life Early encounters with the Everglades as formative experiences of spirit and awe Discovery of Torah study as a young adult across Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform settings Epistemic humility as a defining mark of Jewish study practice Pursuit of truth understood through the "through a glass darkly" frame of Moses Torah received "through the hand of Moses" as mediating truth and mystery Chevruta (paired study) as the engine of discovery, disagreement, and meaning Pastoral Life and Congregational Meaning Surprised by the depth of pastoral work: weddings, funerals, life-cycle passages Intimacy of congregational leadership as a source of meaning rather than tedium Congregational relationships forming an existential and vocational anchor The role of community support during family medical crises How decades-long pastoral presence shapes shared covenantal life Teaching 12- and 13-year-olds to encounter the text as spiritual practice The power of intergenerational relationships in spiritual resilience Pandemic and Spiritual Survival Early months of 2020 as a time of fear, isolation, and emotional strain Counseling families whose loved ones were dying without visitors Previous experience with depression creating early warning signals Telehealth therapy as a critical intervention Saturday morning Torah study on Zoom becoming the path through darkness Growth of the study community throughout the pandemic Predictable humor and shared reading as markers of communal stability Textuality, God-Language, and Jewish Hesitations Jewish discomfort speaking explicitly about God for theological and cultural reasons Layers of humility, anti-mysticism, differentiation from Christianity, and historical experience Sacredness and mystery of the scroll growing in the digital age Physicality of the Torah scroll attracting deeper attention and reverence Hebrew as a source of multivalent meaning, sonic power, and spiritual resonance Reading together as the most common encounter with God: understanding another's soul Pastoral awareness of individuals' life stories shaping group study dynamics Cross-Faith Devotion and Shared Honor Friendships with Muslim, Christian, and Hasidic leaders deepening spiritual insight Devotion in others sparking awe rather than defensiveness Disagreement becoming a site of connection rather than separation Devotion in other traditions prompting self-reflection on one's own commitments Stories of praying with and learning from ultra-Orthodox leaders Shared pursuit of truth across tradition lines as a form of civic and spiritual honor American religious diversity offering unprecedented exposure to sincere piety Israel, Gaza, and American Jewish Experience Suffering, fear, and horror experienced by Israelis and Palestinians Parallel emotional and spiritual pressures faced by Jews and Muslims in America Concern about political manipulation of community trauma Generational trauma and its transmission, including Holocaust-era family stories Emotional resonance of global conflict in local congregational life Distinction and connection between geopolitical realities and American spiritual experience Call to honor emotional realities across neighborhoods and communities Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

In this Thanksgiving reflection, Mark Labberton opens up about a period of darkness and despair, when as a younger man he considered ending his life. But when he was invited to share Thanksgiving dinner with a local couple, his eyes were opened to concrete acts of hope, friendship, and joy—all embodied in the simple feast of a community "Friendsgiving" potluck. Every year since, Mark calls these friends on Thanksgiving Day, in gratitude for and celebration of the hospitality, generosity, beauty, friendship, and hope he encountered that day. Here Mark reflects on the emotional and psychological difficulties he was going through, the meaning and beauty of friendship, how every dish of a Thanksgiving dinner is an act of hope and community, and how hospitality and generosity can uplift every member of a community. If you or anyone you know is struggling with depression or considering suicide, there is help available now. Simply call or text 988 to speak with someone right away, share what you're going through, and get the support you need. About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes A story about Thanksgiving Day many years ago, during Mark Labberton's master of divinity degree at Fuller Seminary "… not just overwhelmed, but really undone" " … the possibility of ending my life …" Every Thanksgiving dish as an act of hope and community Beauty of friendship A magnificent extravaganza Sharing not just food but hope "Things had radically changed. And that in fact they had, they had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life." "For me, Thanksgiving Day holds this deep and pensive awareness that Thanksgiving doesn't always come easy, that often it's a difficult act, that it involves things that are sometimes impossible for certain people to carry. And at the same time, it's possible for other people to carry them in our place, which is what these friends did for me that day." If you're feeling despair, seek professional help. Call or text 988 for an immediate response with a counsellor. Seek community. "Whether you're in darkness or in light, whether your heart feels full of gratitude or whether it may not, I just hope that you'll be aware that God is with you, that you are not alone, that there are people that want to support you and help you, and that there are people that know you who would welcome you into a circle of celebration and gratitude today." Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

To exist as a black male in America is to be perceived as a threat, where criminality is attributed by default and violence is justified from racial bias. And as a young man, Pastor Mike McBride learned through personal experience that following Jesus does not protect you from the violence of the state. How could it, when Jesus himself was crucified by religious- and state-sponsored violence? In this episode, Pastor Mike (The Way Christian Center, Berkeley, CA) joins Mark Labberton to discuss the confluence of Black Pentecostal holiness, police brutality, gun violence prevention, Christian nationalism, political polarization, racial justice, and the urgent spiritual crisis facing the American church. From his childhood in the San Francisco neighborhood of Bayview–Hunter's Point, to the trauma of a police assault in 1999, to national leadership in Ferguson, to confronting the rise of authoritarian Christianity, Pastor Mike traces the formation of his vocation and the cost of staying faithful to Jesus in a nation shaped by anti-blackness and state-sponsored violence. His story of survival, theological awakening, moral urgency, and hopeful action is rooted in the gospel's call to respond with peaceful action against the violence of the world. Episode Highlights "What is it about this gospel that their family members, their parents trust you with the salvation of their souls, but not the safety of their bodies." "It forced me to really have a strong come to Jesus meeting about how am I being prepared to do what I was already feeling a lifeline calling of ministry while I was starting the work of justice as a first victim and crime survivor." "It is some kind of delusion for us to follow Jesus who got crucified and killed by the state and then be surprised when we get crucified by the state." "I think there was just this sensibility that was a part of our upbringing that this is what it means to be black in America." "People are being discipled into racism. People are being discipled into anti-blackness." "I hope that feeding the hungry clothing the naked healing the sick is not something that in 2025 Christians identify as some leftist socialist liberal Christianity or we've lost it." Helpful Links and Resources Live Free USA https://www.livefreeusa.org Roots, Alex Haley https://www.amazon.com/Roots-American-Family-Alex-Haley/dp/030682485X Boston TenPoint Coalition / Eugene Rivers https://btpc.org/ Oscar Grant Case (NPR Overview) https://www.npr.org/2010/07/09/128401136/transit-officers-verdict-sparks-violent-protests About Michael McBride Pastor Michael McBride (often known as "Pastor Mike") is the National Director of Live Free USA, a nationwide movement of faith leaders and congregations dedicated to ending gun violence, mass incarceration, and the criminalization of Black and Brown communities. A respected activist, pastor, and organizer, he has been a prominent voice in national efforts to address police violence, promote community-based safety strategies, and mobilize churches for racial justice. Pastor Mike is also the founding pastor of The Way Christian Center in Berkeley, California. His leadership, advocacy, and public witness have been featured across major media outlets, integrating faith, justice, and community transformation. Show Notes Holiness, formation, and black pentecostal roots Growing up as the second oldest of six in Hunters Point with deep Southern family roots "We grew up just very much enmeshed in a black church, holiness culture." Strict holiness prohibitions: no movies, no drinking, no secular music, no dancing. Holiness as both constraint and survival strategy during the crack era The world of Southern Baptist school culture colliding with black identity Racial Identity, Civil Rights Memory, and Family Formation Annual watching of Eyes on the Prize as civic and spiritual ritual. Leaving school to attend MLK Day celebrations: "I dare you to say something about it." Roots, Alex Haley, and early consciousness of black struggle and survival State violence, trauma, and theological turning point March 1999 police assault: physical and sexual violence during a "weapons search." "You can be following Jesus faithfully and still be subjected to violence at the hands of the state." The dissonance of worshiping a crucified Messiah while denying contemporary crucifixions Youth in his ministry revealing they didn't tell him because "we didn't think the church would do anything." Call to ministry, theological awakening, and training Exposure to church history, patristics, Thomas Merton, and MLK Jr. Grant Wacker inviting him to Duke; scholarship leading to seminary training Influence of black theologians and faculty shaping his justice imagination Meeting Eugene Rivers and the birth of a vocation in violence reduction and organizing Ferguson, activism, and the crisis of Christian witness Returning from Cape Town when Mike Brown was killed; sudden call to St. Louis Tear gas, militarized police, and "the ugly underside of the American law enforcement apparatus." "Our marriages didn't survive that era." Ferguson as exposure of the divide within the American church: respectability politics, sexuality panic, racial division "People are being discipled into racism … into militarism … into economic exploitation." Political polarization and Christian Nationalism 2016–present: Trumpism as a carrier of a broader reactionary Christian political project. Concern for Christian authoritarianism masquerading as religious fidelity. "You should definitely live out your convictions… but that don't mean you should kill everybody else on your hill." Deep grief over the church's inability to discern the danger George Floyd, red lines, and the urgency of now Summer 2020 as national smelling salt: "the banality and the violence of this state." The ceiling on empathy in American evangelicalism Targeted universalism and the need for differentiated strategies for shared goals Wealth inequality, homelessness, hunger, and the moral failure of Christianized politics "I hope that feeding the hungry clothing the naked healing the sick is not something… Christians identify as leftist." Participatory democracy as spiritual stewardship The Trinity as a model of unity-with-difference Holiness as public witness: protecting bodies and souls A charge to oppose Christian nationalism and join justice-infused faithfulness Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

How would the black church's public witness guide Christians through today's polarization, culture-war dynamics, and ideological captivity? Drawing from Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around, Justin Giboney joins Mark Labberton to reflect on Christian credibility (and lack thereof), the black church's public witness, and the deep forces shaping American polarization. Reflecting on the legacy of the twentieth-century civil rights generation, Giboney describes how the black church's fusion of orthodoxy and social action offers a model for healing division, resisting ideological captivity, and embodying what he calls "moral imagination." Citing the formative influences of his grandmother Willie Faye, the example of Mahalia Jackson, and the ongoing challenge of navigating truth, justice, family, unity, and political engagement in a fractured moment, Giboney explores discipleship in an ideological age, the cost of a credible public witness, and the hope of a church capable of transcending partisan allegiance to seek the good of neighbor and the glory of God. Episode Highlights "One thing that I saw in the civil rights generation is they were able to have a bigger perspective, even in songs like 'Keep Your Eyes on the Prize.'" "Love is self-sacrifice. It's being willing to at my own expense in some instances give up what I have to others." "This was a deliberate decision that they made to say, we're not gonna choose one of these two sides that these groups are creating for us." "Within the public square, credibility is currency." "I want all Christians to take that as their own and build on that." Helpful Links and Resources Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around by Justin Giboney https://www.ivpress.com/don-t-let-nobody-turn-you-around The AND Campaign https://andcampaign.org/ Mahalia Jackson biography (PBS) https://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/mahalia-jackson-about-the-singer/602/ Reading While Black by Esau McCaulley https://ivpress.com/reading-while-black About Justin Giboney Justin Giboney is an attorney and political strategist in Atlanta, Georgia. He is also the co-founder and president of the AND Campaign, a Christian civic organization focused on asserting the compassion and conviction of the gospel in the public square. He has served as an attorney, political organizer, and civic leader, and he regularly speaks and writes on the intersection of Christianity and politics. Show Notes Justin Giboney describes being an attorney, political strategist, and ordained minister, and cofounder of the AND Campaign He explains the AND Campaign's mission to raise civic literacy among Christians and resist purely partisan frameworks in favor of a biblical one "Social justice and moral order, love and truth, compassion and conviction" as a united Christian vision rather than opposing camps Lit City literacy initiative in Atlanta bringing churches across racial and partisan divides together for shared mission Ten-week programs for Christians preparing to run for office or engage politics constructively Naming and confronting polarization as a dialectical division that splits what should be held together Intro and summary to Giboney's book, Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around, framed as applying civil rights wisdom to the current culture-war moment Giboney's grandmother Willie Faye and Mahalia Jackson as representative figures of the civil rights generation's theological and moral framework Moral imagination defined as the capacity to see what ought to be, not merely what is: "the ability to see what will be based on God's promises" Songs like "Keep Your Eyes on the Prize" as examples of moral imagination sustaining courage and humility The necessity of Scripture's authority and why the black church's orthodoxy and orthopraxy shape public witness Giboney's critique of individualism and his insistence that love is fundamentally "self-sacrifice" rather than self-expression Historical correction: The black church neither mirrors conservative ideology nor progressive ideology; it deliberately resisted both. "If we go to the right, we lose our bodies… if we go to the left, we could lose our soul." The strategic theological posture of black church leaders Christian credible witness requires coherence, humility, and honesty—rather than partisan performance Credibility in public "is currency," requiring self-examination, confession, and honesty about ideological idols Civil Rights Movement disciplines: self-purification, preparation through prayer and fellowship, resisting bitterness before engaging action Parenting, resilience, and teaching his sons not to give disproportionate emotional energy to racist comments, while still confronting wrongdoing The role of community formation, honor, and integrated humanity within black church worship life Hopes for the church: rejecting secular assumptions about who can reconcile, cultivating humility across divisions AND Campaign's twenty-year vision: Christians uniting across party lines around shared commitments like racial justice, family, sanctity of life, and poverty Final exhortation: The black church's public witness is a gift and challenge to the entire American church, not just one community. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

In the latest episode of Centering: The Asian American Christian Podcast, hosts Yulee Lee and Daniel Lee delve further into the challenging topic of toxic ministry. The conversation highlights the necessity of discernment in ministry, distinguishing between toxic and simply unhealthy environments. They introduce the concept of “spiritual bypassing,” where spiritual language and “Christianese” is used to avoid addressing real issues. Personal stories and examples from the Bible illustrate how authentic spiritual maturity involves embracing and processing one's emotions rather than bypassing them for a facade of spirituality. 00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry 00:48 Understanding the Distinction Between Toxic and Dysfunctional Ministries 05:41 The Role of Grace in Enabling Abuse 06:53 Personal Stories of Ministry Abuse 12:11 Spiritual Bypassing vs. Spiritual Maturity 20:07 The Confusion of Discernment 20:19 Daniel's Story on Anger 20:42 The Complexity of Anger in Christianity 22:48 Spiritual Bypassing and Its Dangers 24:01 The Importance of Authenticity in Faith 25:36 The Role of Psalms in Prayer 26:37 Challenges in Ministry and Spiritual Manipulation 28:35 Embracing a Broad Spirituality 30:09 Avoiding Spiritual Bypassing 36:25 The Need for Honest Struggle in Faith 39:05 Concluding Thoughts on Toxic Ministry Devotional Classics by Richard Foster https://www.harpercollins.com/products/devotional-classics-revised-edition-richard-j-foster?variant=32116217479202 Spiritual Bypassing by Robert Masters https://www.northatlanticbooks.com/shop/spiritual-bypassing/ Emotionally Healthy Church, Peter Scazzero Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, Peter Scazzero https://www.harpercollinschristian.com/author/369/peter-scazzero/ KPop Demon Hunters https://www.netflix.com/title/81498621 If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: https://fundraise.givesmart.com/form/lhJydg?vid=18eqio

What is the book of Revelation really about? For ages, it has been the source of sensationalism, idolatry, confusion, and end-times predictions. But at its root, it is about the power and worship of the Lamb who was slain. Biblical scholar Michael J. Gorman joins Mark Labberton to explore how Christians can read the book of Revelation with wisdom, faith, and hope rather than fear or sensationalism. Drawing from his book Reading Revelation Responsibly: Uncivil Worship and Witness—Following the Lamb into the New Creation, Gorman offers a reorientation to Revelation's central vision: worshipping the Lamb, resisting idolatrous power, and embodying faithful discipleship in the world. Together they discuss Revelation's misuses in popular culture, its critique of empire and nationalism, and its invitation to follow the crucified and risen Christ into the new creation. Episode Highlights "The book of Revelation is about lamb power—not hyper-religious or political power. It's about absorbing rather than inflicting evil." "This book is for those who are confused by, afraid of, and or preoccupied with the book of Revelation." "We shouldn't look for predictions but for parallels and analogies." "Worship, discipleship, and new creation—that's where Revelation hangs its hat." "At its root, Christian nationalism is a form of idolatry." "The only way to come out of Babylon is to go back into Babylon with new values and new practices." Helpful Links and Resources Reading Revelation Responsibly – https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Revelation-Responsibly-Following-Creation/dp/1606085603/ Reverse Thunder by Eugene Peterson – https://www.amazon.com/Reversed-Thunder-Revelation-Praying-Imagination/dp/0060665033 St. Mary's Seminary & University, Baltimore – https://www.stmarys.edu About Michael J. Gorman Michael J. Gorman is the Raymond E. Brown Professor of Biblical Studies and Theology at St. Mary's Seminary & University in Baltimore, Maryland. A leading New Testament scholar, he is the author of numerous books on Pauline theology and Revelation, including Reading Revelation Responsibly, Cruciformity, and Participating in Christ. Gorman's teaching and writing emphasize Scripture as a call to cruciform discipleship, faithful worship, and the hope of new creation. Show Notes Introducing Reading Revelation Responsibly "This book is for those who are confused by, afraid of, and or preoccupied with the Book of Revelation." "Apocalypse" means revelation, not destruction. Emerging from twenty-five years of study and teaching, aimed at rescuing Revelation from misinterpretation or neglect Growing up amid 1970s end-times obsession—Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth and fearful youth-group predictions of the world's end Fear of the book of Revelation until he studied it with Bruce Metzger at Princeton Seminary Why he wrote the book: for people who have been scared or confused by Revelation's misuse Interpretation and misreading the book of Revelation Early questions: Does Revelation predict particular events or people? No predictions, but symbolic speaking into every age "Our task is not to find predictions but to discern parallels and analogies." Warning against mapping Revelation onto modern crises or personalities "When those predictions fail, the book gets sidelined or scoffed at." Keep one foot in the first-century context and one in the present Worship and discipleship The heart of Revelation is worship. "This is a book about worship—and about the object of our worship." Explaining the subtitle: Uncivil Worship and Witness—Following the Lamb into the New Creation "Uncivil worship" contrasts with "civil religion"—worship that refuses to idolize political power Influence from Eugene Peterson's Reverse Thunder and his own teaching at St. Mary's, where Peterson once taught Revelation Worship leads to discipleship: "Those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes." True discipleship mirrors the Lamb's humility and non-violence. The lamb and the meaning of power Interpreting Revelation's vision of the slain and standing Lamb as the key to understanding divine power "The crucified Messiah is the risen Lord—but he remains the crucified one." The Lamb appears twenty-eight times, a symbol of universality and completeness. "Revelation is about lamb power—absorbing rather than inflicting evil." Discipleship is cruciform: following the Lamb's way of self-giving love. The unholy trinity and the danger of idolatry Chapters 12–13 depict the dragon and two beasts—the "unholy trinity" of satanic, imperial, and religious power. "Power gone amok": political, military, and spiritual domination that mimic divinity How true worship resists empire and exposes idolatry Warning against reading these beasts as predictions of the UN or the pope; rather, they reveal recurring alliances of religion and politics "At its root, Christian nationalism is idolatry." When political identity eclipses discipleship, "political power always wins, and faith loses." Faith, politics, and worship today Christian nationalism as a modern form of "civil religion," conflating patriotism with divine will "It's only Christian in name—it lacks Christian substance." Idolatry is not limited to one side: "It permeates the left, the right, and probably the centre." Labberton agrees: false worship is endemic wherever self-interest and fear shape our loves. Both stress that Revelation calls the church to worship the Lamb, not the state. "Revelation critiques all human systems of false worship." Revelation's goal: Not destruction, but new creation "Destruction is penultimate—cleansing the way for renewal." Believers already live as citizens of that new creation. "The only way to come out of Babylon is to go back into Babylon with new values and new practices." Communal, not merely individual, discipleship: "Revelation is written to churches, not just believers." Reinterpreting Revelation 3:20: Jesus knocking isn't an altar call to unbelievers but Christ seeking re-entry into his own church. "Jesus always wants to come back in." Living revelation today Spirituality of hope, not fear or withdrawal "Reading Revelation responsibly means engaging the world through worship and witness." How true worship is dangerous because it transforms our allegiance. "Following the Lamb into the new creation is the church's act of resistance." Conclusion: "Worthy is the Lamb." Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

In this episode of 'The Biggest Table,' host Andrew Camp converses with Laura Baghdassarian Murray, Director of Spiritual Engagement and Innovation at Fuller Seminary and author of 'Becoming a Person of Welcome.' Laura shares her journey in practicing and understanding hospitality, particularly how it evolved during the pandemic through digital silent retreats. They discuss the theological foundation of hospitality, various influences on Laura's work, the importance of carrying a posture of welcome, and navigating the challenges within hospitality, including boundaries. Laura emphasizes experimenting with small practices to deepen hospitality and cultivate authentic and meaningful connections.Laura Baghdassarian Murray is the director of spiritual engagement and innovation at Fuller Seminary's Center for Spiritual Formation. She is the author of Pray as You Are, serves on the Ministry Collaborative Advisory Board, and previously served at Highland Park Presbyterian Church as the pastor of spiritual formation. Laura is also the founder of the Digital Silent Retreat Ministry, which is rooted in the practice of hospitality to provide brave and courageous spaces for people to connect with God and others (www.digitalsilentretreats.com). Her newest book is Becoming a Person of Welcome, which was just published by InterVarsity. She lives in the Dallas area with her husband and two children.Laura's website: https://laurabmurray.com/This episode of the Biggest Table is brought to you in part by Wild Goose Coffee. Since 2008, Wild Goose has sought to build better communities through coffee. For our listeners, Wild Goose is offering a special promotion of 20% off a one time order using the code TABLE at checkout. To learn more and to order coffee, please visit wildgoosecoffee.com. 

Adverse childhood experiences are notoriously hard to overcome, and they can affect a person well into adulthood. But the grace of close, stable, nurturing relationships can offer hope. Terence Lester—author of From Dropout to Doctorate and founder of Love Beyond Walls—joins Mark Labberton for a conversation about resilience, faith, and the redemptive power of seeing and being seen. Lester recounts his life's journey from poverty, homelessness, and gang membership in southwest Atlanta to earning his PhD in public policy and social change. Together, they explore the impact of childhood trauma on personal development; education as a form of love, justice, and community service; and the healing potential of local community and proximity. Lester's story is a testament to divine grace, human courage, and the transformative impact of compassionate words and faithful presence. Episode Highlights "The higher your ACE score, the more your body has to overcome… Every 'yes' cultivates a stronger relationship with pain. Your counterparts with lower scores may never develop those same muscles of resilience." "Education is a tool that increases your capacity to serve others." "People don't become what you want them to become—they become what you encourage them to become." "I am a product of people who invested in me and of the things I've had to resist." "You can't love your neighbour if you're not concerned about the neighbourhood that produces your neighbour." "Each sentence spoken can become a seed of hope—or a curse that crushes it." Helpful Links and Resources Terence Lester's website – https://terencelester.com/ From Dropout to Doctorate – https://www.ivpress.com/from-dropout-to-doctorate I See You: How Love Opens Our Eyes to Invisible People – https://www.ivpress.com/i-see-you Love Beyond Walls (Terence Lester's non-profit) – https://www.lovebeyondwalls.org ACEs Study (Adverse Childhood Experiences) – https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/aces/index.html The Color of Compromise by Jamar Tisby – https://jemartisby.com/the-color-of-compromise/ About Terence Lester Terence Lester is a speaker, activist, author, and founder of Love Beyond Walls, a non-profit organization dedicated to raising awareness about poverty and homelessness while mobilizing communities to serve those in need. A graduate of Union Institute & University with a PhD in public policy and social change, he is the author of I See You: How Love Opens Our Eyes to Invisible People, When We Stand: The Power of Seeking Justice Together, **and All God's Children: How Confronting Buried History Can Build Racial Solidarity. His latest book is From Dropout to Doctorate: Breaking the Chains of Educational Injustice. Through storytelling, advocacy, and faith-rooted organizing, Lester seeks to dismantle systemic barriers and call communities toward justice, empathy, and proximity. Show Notes Education and social change Terence Lester describes sitting beside his father's hospital bed reflecting on vulnerability, legacy, and resilience. His father's words—"I'm proud of you"—affirmed the journey from poverty to doctorate. Growing up amid trauma, gangs, and homelessness in southwest Atlanta. The generational impact of systemic injustice and public policy shaping social outcomes Education as a tool for empowerment and community transformation, not self-advancement "Education is a tool that increases your capacity to serve others." How the post–Civil Rights era shaped identity and pride in blackness while still marked by inequality Frames poverty itself as a form of trauma, calling for empathy and systemic response Trauma, resilience, and the ACEs framework Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) test as a tool for understanding trauma Lester shares his 10/10 ACE score—complete exposure to childhood trauma "Every 'yes' cultivates a stronger relationship with pain… You must climb out of a pit to reach emotionally stable ground." How adversity produced resilience, not fragility Connecting personal trauma to compassion in ministry among the unhoused How proximity to suffering forms the capacity for empathy and love Faith, identity, and calling Connecting resilience and faith: "I believe my being was intricately woven together by God." Psalm 139 and seeing himself as "fearfully and wonderfully made" Jesus's life as a model of proximity and compassionate visibility—"Jesus saw." The church as a community of affirmation and blessing How words spoken over others—curses or encouragement—shape identity "People don't become what you want them to become—they become what you encourage them to become." Community, visibility, and flourishing "You can't love your neighbor if you're not concerned about the neighborhood that produces your neighbor." Warns of a "compassion deficit" and urges the rebuilding of community communication Seeds and environments: people cannot flourish where conditions are hostile The need for better care for impoverished environments that stunt potential Community as the soil of hope—"People find hope and possibility in community." Lester's mother's resilience and faith—earning her own doctorate while raising two children "I am a product of her never giving up." The generational power of education and faith as liberation Hope, words, and the power of blessing Transformative and timely sentences: encouraging words of seeds or yeast—small yet life-altering How to speak life, not curses, over others "Each sentence spoken can become a seed of hope—or a curse that crushes it." Mentorship, community affirmation, and divine proximity as instruments of healing Interrogating falsehoods: "God is not the source of cursing." A call to faith-rooted compassion, proximity, and collective responsibility. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

As New York City heads into a mayoral election next week, progressive candidate Zohran Mamdani leads the polls over the former governor Andrew Cuomo and Republican candidate Curtis Sliwa. Will his emphasis on the rising cost of living win him the race? Putin's tactics in Ukraine show his desire for the war to continue, while President Trump softens towards Ukraine. And, Hurricane Melissa poses a threat to Jamaica. Mike Cosper and Clarissa Moll discuss these headlines, and Clarissa sits down with Kutter Callaway, host of the CT's podcast Be Afraid, to talk about how violence in horror films compares to violence in the news, and why Christian filmmakers are producing horror films.   GO DEEPER WITH THE BULLETIN:  -Join the conversation at our Substack.  -Find us on YouTube.  -Rate and review the show in your podcast app of choice.    ABOUT THE GUESTS:   Kutter Callaway is the William K. Brehm Chair of Worship, Theology, and the Arts, associate dean of the Center for Advanced Theological Studies, and associate professor of theology and culture at Fuller Seminary. He is author and contributor to several books, and his most recent book is Theology for Psychology and Counseling: An Invitation to Holistic Christian Practice.  ABOUT THE BULLETIN:  The Bulletin is a twice-weekly politics and current events show from Christianity Today moderated by Clarissa Moll, with senior commentary from Russell Moore (Christianity Today's editor-at-large and columnist) and Mike Cosper (senior contributor). Each week, the show explores current events and breaking news and shares a Christian perspective on issues that are shaping our world. We also offer special one-on-one conversations with writers, artists, and thought leaders whose impact on the world brings important significance to a Christian worldview, like Bono, Sharon McMahon, Harrison Scott Key, Frank Bruni, and more.    The Bulletin listeners get 25% off CT. Go to https://orderct.com/THEBULLETIN to learn more.    “The Bulletin” is a production of Christianity Today  Producer: Clarissa Moll  Associate Producer: Alexa Burke  Editing and Mix: Kevin Morris Graphic Design: Rick Szuecs Music: Dan Phelps  Executive Producers: Erik Petrik and Mike Cosper   Senior Producer: Matt Stevens Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How can we  address the problem of violence against the poor? International Justice Mission exists to answer this question with protecting and rescuing victims, bringing criminals to justice, restoring survivors to safety and strength, and helping local law enforcement build a safe future that lasts. In this episode, International Justice Mission's founder and CEO, Gary Haugen, joins Mark Labberton to reflect on almost three decades of IJM's fight against violence and slavery worldwide—and the spiritual formation that sustains it. Haugen shares the origins of IJM in response to systemic violence against the poor, the evolution from individual rescues to transforming justice systems, and the remarkable rise of survivor leaders transforming their own nations. Together they reflect on courage, joy, and faith amid immense risk—bearing witness to God's power to bring justice and healing through ordinary people. Episode Highlights “Protecting the poor from violence is God's weight, but it's our work, and we're gonna seek to do it Jesus's way.” ”In this era, I just think what the world is aching to see is the followers of Jesus who have a incandescent freedom from fear and a life-giving joy.” “Most of this violence will go away if government does just even a decent job of enforcing the law.” “Our first commitment is to help each other become more like Jesus—and from that strength, to do justice.” “The greatest miracle of IJM is not only the results—it's the freedom from fear and the joy with which they've done it.” “God saw them in their darkness, and they now testify to the goodness of an almighty God who loved them.” Helpful Links and Resources International Justice Mission – https://www.ijm.org Gary Haugen, The Locust Effect: Why the End of Poverty Requires the End of Violence – https://www.amazon.com/Locust-Effect-Poverty-Requires-Violence/dp/0199937877 Gary Haugen, Just Courage: God's Great Expedition for the Restless Christian – https://www.amazon.com/Just-Courage-Expedition-Restless-Christian-ebook/dp/B001PSEQR4 Riverside Church Sermon by Martin Luther King Jr., “Beyond Vietnam” — https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/beyond-vietnam William Lloyd Garrison biography – https://www.britannica.com/biography/William-Lloyd-Garrison Rwanda Genocide Investigation (UN Historical Overview) – https://www.un.org/en/preventgenocide/rwanda About Gary Haugen Gary Haugen is the founder and CEO of International Justice Mission (IJM), the world's largest international anti-slavery organization. Before founding IJM in 1997, he served as the Director of the United Nations' investigation into the Rwandan genocide and previously worked at the U.S. Department of Justice, focusing on police misconduct. A graduate of Harvard University and the University of Chicago Law School, Haugen has dedicated his life to ending violence against the poor and mobilizing the global church for justice. Show Notes The founding of IJM in 1997 as a Christian response to violence against the poor Gary Haugen's formative experience directing the UN's genocide investigation in Rwanda Realization that hunger and disease were being addressed—but violence was not Early cases in the Philippines, South Asia, and Peru exposing police-run brothels and child slavery IJM 1.0: rescuing individuals from slavery and abuse, case by case IJM 2.0: strengthening local justice systems to prevent violence before it happens Martin Luther King Jr.'s “Jericho Road” as a model for systemic transformation Formation of small multidisciplinary teams—lawyers, investigators, social workers IJM's evolution from rescue operations to building sustainable justice infrastructure Twenty-year celebration: Liberate conference and the global IJM staff retreat IJM's culture of spiritual formation: daily solitude, prayer, and community rhythms A Christian order of justice rooted in prayer, silence, and shared joy Spiritual formation as the foundation for sustainable justice work Experiments in Cambodia, the Philippines, and South Asia reducing violence by up to 85% Replication of IJM's model across 46 regions to protect 500 million vulnerable people Goal by 2030: one million freed from slavery, 300 million living under protection Empowering survivor leaders: from victims to advocates and elected officials Stories of transformation like Pama in South Asia leading the Release Bonded Laborers Association The Kenyan case of Willie Kimani—murdered IJM lawyer whose legacy reformed police accountability IJM's resilience: pursuing justice for six years until conviction of perpetrators Theological grounding: justice as God's work, pursued in Jesus's way Haugen on resilience: “It's a marathon, not a sprint” Joy and freedom from fear as hallmarks of IJM's culture How IJM balances global crisis fatigue with focused mission clarity Future challenges: technology-driven oppression—live-stream child abuse and forced scamming Global body of Christ as the essential network for courage and joy Sustainability and local leadership as the future of global justice movements Spiritual communities as the seedbed for future justice leaders Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

JIM WILDER has been training leaders and counselors for over 27 years on five continents. He is the author of nine books with a strong focus on maturing and relationship skills for leaders. His coauthored book Living From the Heart Jesus Gave You has sold over 100,000 copies in eleven languages. Wilder has published numerous articles and developed four sets of video and relational leadership training called THRIVE. He is currently executive director of Shepherd's House Inc., a nonprofit working at the intersection of brain science and theology, and founder of Life Model Works that is buidling contagiously healthy Christian communities through equipping existing networks with the skills to thrive. Dr. Wilder has extensive clinical counseling experience and has served as a guest lecturer at Fuller Seminary, Biola, Talbot Seminary, Point Loma University, Montreat College, Tyndale Seminary and elsewhere.

Can Our Enemies Teach Us Anything?   A.J. Swoboda joins the Good Faith podcast to unpack how cultivating a teachable spirit and practicing true discipleship means learning from enemies, strangers, and neighbors in a divided world. He emphasizes how to recognize real experts amid alternate facts and subjective “truths,” and tells how the countercultural practice of learning from anyone—regardless of agreement—fosters humility, empathy, and connection, insights drawn from his book A Teachable Spirit.   (03:11) - Cultivating a Teachable Spirit (09:38) - Reverse Prophecy and Calling Out Your Tribe (17:55) - Experts & Expertise (22:09) - Sola Scriptura vs. “Solo” Scriptura (23:27) - Jesus Would Be the Best At Anything (32:04) - Replacing Our Neighbors With Technology (45:03) - Learning From Enemies   Join The After Party   Send Campfire Stories to: info@redeemingbabel.org   Donate to Redeeming Babel   Mentioned In This Episode: A.J. Swoboda's A Teachable Spirit How John Calvin understood the Ten Commandments Erving Goffman's The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life (pdf) More about Fuller Seminary's John Goldengay Roger Kneebone: The Path To Expertise and Why Experts Matter Understanding Erving Goffman's concept of Civil Inattention Dallas Willard's sermon: The Genius of Jesus, part 1 (video) Dallas Willard's Jesus the Logician (article) How Should Pastors Respond to Charlie Kirk's Assassination? (article) Scriptures Referenced: The Sermon on the Mount: Matthew 5-7 (ESV) Mark 12:30-31 (ESV) Deuteronomy 10 (ESV) Hebrews 13:2 (ESV)   More From A.J. Swoboda: A.J. Swoboda and Nijay Gupta's The Slow Theology Podcast   A.J. Swoboda's Low Level Theology Substack A.J. Swoboda's The Dusty Ones: Why Wandering Deepens Your Faith  Follow Us: Good Faith on Instagram Good Faith on X (formerly Twitter) Good Faith on Facebook   Sign up: Redeeming Babel Newsletter   The Good Faith Podcast is a production of Redeeming Babel, a 501(c)(3) nonpartisan organization that does not engage in any political campaign activity to support or oppose any candidate for public office. Any views and opinions expressed by any guests on this program are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Redeeming Babel.