Podcasts about fuller seminary

In this divided moment, we are being actively encouraged to make enemies of one another. To resist these forces, we need to cultivate kindness.  Loving kindness is a simple but powerful evidenced-backed practice that helps us hold our own views and values, yet still honor the perspectives of others… even those with whom we disagree. Leading us through this practice is  Dr. Brad Strawn, licensed psychologist, ordained minister and one of the leading figures in the integration of psychology and Christian theology in the US. Don't miss my full interview with Dr. Strawn.   Here today we have a simple practice that takes 5 minutes and you can practice any time you need to ground yourself and foster a sense of compassion with others. And you can count on it to change your brain.   Come on over to my Substack this week, With & For by Dr. Pam King, where I'm asking you to share a surprising moment that you experienced unexpected kindness from a stranger or even someone you were at odds with.  With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media & Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenSenior Producer: Clare WileyExecutive Producer: Jakob LewisProduced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

American history is riddled with collisions between legally defensible rulings and morally costly outcomes. Still, "the purpose of law in any society is to embody a moral framework in practice," says Yuval Levin, who joins Mark Labberton to explore the moral architecture in the foundation of the American legal system, as they review the most recent rulings of the U.S. Supreme Court. The Court has just closed one of the most consequential terms in recent memory, articulating the tension between faithfulness to the Constitution and enacting justice and morality. Together they reflect on why and how a system founded on equality must be both majoritarian and counter-majoritarian at once; why a judge's job is to articulate their legal (rather than their moral) opinion; the rise of Constitutional originalism; why pre-Trump conservative arguments win at this Court while "Trumpy" ones lose; the contemporary relevance of the Federalist Papers; what recourse citizens have when they believe the Court has done wrong; and why the American legal system's worst failures still cluster around race. They explore several of the 2025-26 rulings of the Supreme Court, including imposition of tariffs, immigration enforcement, and birthright citizenship, and the Voting Rights Act. Episode Highlights "The purpose of law in any society is to embody a moral framework in practice." "This is a very good time to get to know The Federalist Papers." "The role of the judge in the American system is to apply the law, not to find the moral answer per se. We hope the law does that, though it doesn't always and we know it." "The American system of government, very much for moral reasons, is expected to be both majoritarian and counter-majoritarian." [Regarding Justice Gorsuch and Justice Kavanaugh] "They grew up in the same place. They literally went to the same high school and had the same history teacher. Their mothers knew each other … They agreed with each other 52% of the time in this last term of the Supreme Court." [Courts to Trump] "You are in charge of the executive branch, but the executive branch is not in charge of the American government." "If you come to this court with a pre-Trump conservative legal argument, you're going to win. If you come to this court with a Trumpy legal argument, you're going to lose." "We experienced the high water mark of executive power about a year ago, and it is now receding." "The areas where it has failed most are concentrated around questions of race. That has been true from the beginning. It is thankfully less true than it used to be, but it is still true, and I think we have to be uniquely sensitive to those questions for that reason." About Yuval Levin Yuval Levin is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, where he holds the Beth and Ravenel Curry Chair in Public Policy and directs Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies. He founded and edits National Affairs, and he is a senior editor at The New Atlantis and a contributing editor at National Review. His books include "The Great Debate," "The Fractured Republic," "A Time to Build," and most recently, "American Covenant." He served on the White House domestic policy staff under George W. Bush and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago's Committee on Social Thought. Helpful Links and Resources Yuval Levin at the American Enterprise Institute: https://www.aei.org/profile/yuval-levin/ National Affairs, the publication Levin founded and edits: https://nationalaffairs.com/authors/detail/yuval-levin American Covenant, by Yuval Levin: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/yuval-levin/american-covenant/9780465040742/?lens=basic-books A Time to Build, by Yuval Levin: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/yuval-levin/a-time-to-build/9781541699281/?lens=basic-books The Federalist Papers, full text at the Library of Congress: https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers Trump v. Slaughter, the decision overturning Humphrey's Executor (June 29, 2026): https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/25-332_qn12.pdf Learning Resources, Inc. v. Trump, the IEEPA tariffs decision (February 20, 2026): https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/24-1287_4gcj.pdf Louisiana v. Callais, the Voting Rights Act decision (April 29, 2026): https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/24-109_21o3.pdf Coverage of the birthright citizenship ruling in Trump v. Barbara, SCOTUSblog: https://www.scotusblog.com/2026/06/supreme-court-strikes-down-trumps-order-ending-birthright-citizenship/ Show Notes Yuval Levin's legal/constitutional frame: The law exists to put a society's moral convictions into workable practice. On "All men are created equal": If no one has natural authority over anyone else, we decide by majority vote—but equality also means the minority keeps its rights no matter who wins The Constitution assigns those two jobs to different institutions and lets them fight: Congress and the president answer to majorities, the courts deliberately do not Life tenure and fixed salaries exist so justices can protect minority rights without fear of majority reprisal A judge's job is to say what the law is, not to reach the most just result; therefore good judges regularly land where they might wish they didn't. What citizens can do when the Court rules wrongly: If it misread a statute, Congress can rewrite it. Constitutional rulings are harder to undo, but examples include the 16th Amendment (re: income tax) and the 14th Amendment (re: black citizenship, answering the Court directly) The pro-life movement's 50-year strategy to overturn Roe v. Wade Levin on the difficulty of simply being in the political minority, and why the system tries to make everyone a winner sometimes Originalism began as a limit on judicial power and judges' preferences Legal originalism looks for original public meaning, not the drafters' intent Parallel to biblical interpretation, where faithful readers reach wildly different conclusions The challenge of interpreting and applying the Constitution to matters of freedom and democracy today With Congress mostly absent, the Court is now deciding questions of executive power the Federalist Papers were written about Justices Kavanaugh and Gorsuch: Same age, same hometown, same high school history teacher, agreed only 52% of the time this term Trump v. Slaughter ends the independent agency: the Court overturned Humphrey's Executor, and the president can now fire FTC-style commissioners at will 2026 Court rulings also told the president no: on tariffs, on the National Guard in Illinois without the governor's consent, and on birthright citizenship Levin's rule of thumb: Pre-Trump conservative arguments win at this Court, Trumpy arguments lose Yuval Levin: Executive power peaked about a year ago and is now receding. Louisiana v. Callais guts Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act by requiring proof of racial intent A legal bind: Black voters vote Democratic by 90% in the South, so a racist map and a purely partisan map look identical Levin defends the ruling as law and grieves it as outcome—several Black-held Southern seats will likely be redistricted away Why he opposes reauthorizing the VRA with race-based set-aside districts, and where he thinks change should come from instead Software now lets parties gerrymander voter by voter—in New England, Trump won 35% and Republicans hold zero House seats The deceptions of the human heart Does constitutional structure just launder self-interest? The system's deepest failures have always clustered around race Gratitude for the Constitution in America's 250th year #SupremeCourt #Constitution #VotingRights #Originalism #ExecutivePower #FaithAndPolitics #YuvalLevin #Conversing Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Beautiful, Disappointing, and Hopeful: A Conversation with Drew Hyun Daniel and Yulee sit down with Drew Hyun—founding and lead pastor of Hope Church New York, executive director of Emotionally Healthy Discipleship, and author of Beautiful, Disappointing, and Hopeful—for an honest conversation about the long, often painful road of emotional and spiritual transformation. Drew traces his journey back to a summer internship in Queens that changed everything: arriving expecting to learn urban ministry, and instead being introduced to Pete Scazzero's emerging framework of emotionally healthy discipleship. From there, the conversation moves into deeply personal territory: Drew's early skepticism and "Pharisee" posture toward inner work, and the slow unraveling of his neat theological categories through grief, 9/11, and family loss His complicated, healing relationship with his father—including the moment his father, after reading Drew's manuscript, wrote back: "I wish I could've been a better daddy" A painful, years-long falling out with mentor Pete Scazzero, and what it took to reconcile Why grief is often the hardest spiritual practice to access—illustrated by a story of Drew "losing it" while caring for his kids during his wife's medical emergency, and what that taught him about over-functioning as a trauma response How leaning into his own Korean American story—rather than erasing it—has shaped his leadership of a multiethnic church, and why "the most particular is the most universal" Practicing slow, embodied spirituality (Sabbath, silence, monastic rhythms) in the relentless pace of New York City What grounds his hope for the local church despite real reasons for disillusionment A vulnerable, unhurried conversation that's part theology, part memoir, and a good reminder that there's no shortcut to becoming whole. Emotionally Healthy Discipleship: https://www.emotionallyhealthy.org/ Hope Church NYC https://www.hopechurchnyc.org/ Beautiful, Disappointing Hopeful: How Gratitude, Grief, and Grace Reflect the Christian Story by Drew Hyun https://faithgateway.com/products/beautiful-disappointing-hopeful-how-gratitude-grief-and-grace-reflect-the-christian-story?variant=42800680173704 Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac.

 Understanding our deepest sense of purpose in the context of our many roles and personal goals can be really hard. The demands of life can make it difficult to discern the biggest aim of your life. So how to get going? Today, we have a pair of practices that act as your first step in orienting towards your inner desires.  Bonnie Wan is going to guide us through two exercises to help you tune into your inner compass. For ten minutes every day for two weeks, Bonnie invites you to get messy by journalling on three powerful prompts:   If you gave yourself permission, what would the best case scenario look like?  What is sacred or non-negotiable to you?  What is holding you back? Bonnie Wan is a strategist, bestselling author, and creator of The Life Brief: A Playbook for No Regrets Living. Make sure you listen to our full interview with Bonnie. And join me on Substack to read how getting messy has helped me – and I invite you to share your own reflections.  With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media & Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenSenior Producer: Clare WileyExecutive Producer: Jakob LewisProduced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Against persistent fear of death, mortality avoidance, and the vices that emerge from terror management, this episode offers a personal testimony of a Christian experience of dying. With scientific precision, disarming honesty, and immense gratitude for life, biologist Jeff Schloss offers an intimate, firsthand account of his recent diagnosis of an extremely rare terminal neurological disease: multiple system atrophy (MSA). His doctors put the prognosis plainly: "It is terminal, it is incurable, and it's rapidly progressive." A longtime and beloved Westmont College biology professor and senior scholar at BioLogos, Schloss offers speaks directly to the experience of dying—as he encounters each new week of this rapidly progressive disease. He reconsiders the meaning of a "good death": increased gratitude and awareness of gift, the reality of pain, the loss of surfing and guitar-playing, the sacredness of family, and the surprising nearness of Christ as everything else falls away. A profound witness to Christian attitudes about life and death, Schloss seeks not a hero's death, but a daily, humble life-giving commerce with Christ. Schloss revisits a life that began in a nonreligious Jewish refugee family and pivoted through a dramatic conversion as a college-dropout surf bum in Hawaii. He traces what has changed, and what hasn't, now that death is no longer an abstraction but a daily fact in his body. With pastoral care and hope, Mark Labberton explores with Schloss what it means to experience dying rather than simply anticipate it, the grief of losing fifty years of surfing and guitar-playing to pain and paralysis, the gift of Simone Weil's writing on suffering, the Heidelberg Catechism's opening words on "our only comfort in life and in death," and the difference between the thrill of surfing and the sacredness of family and commerce with Christ. Episode Highlights I knew from the second grade that I wanted to be a scientist. I was out collecting butterflies and dragonflies and looking through microscopes at all sorts of things that I couldn't believe were there. As we were talking, it just occurred to me ... he either had what I wanted, or he was clinically crazy. It is terminal, it is incurable, and it's rapidly progressive ... the process of dying I find it fascinating ... It's not fun, but it is fascinating. She wasn't sad just for herself, I'm gonna lose you. And she wasn't sad empathetically just for me, so sorry for you. It was a joint sadness that the life we had hoped to share together, we are not gonna have. The things that are most life giving are out of reach ... I've come to see it's actually not true. The things that have been delightful are out of reach ... the thing that is most life giving, and that is commerce with Christ. I think it was the single most thrilling day of my entire life ... I said, no, those weren't thrilling, those were sacred. I don't want to market this season. I'm not looking for a hero's death, or any kind of publicly attended death. I would have never guessed that in this home stretch, my son and wife could carry me up the slopes of Yosemite Valley. About Jeff Schloss Jeff Schloss has spent four decades at the intersection of evolutionary biology and Christian theology. Now retired as Distinguished Professor of Biology at Westmont College, he continues as senior scholar at BioLogos, working alongside Francis Collins for more than fifteen years. He co-edited "The Believing Primate: Scientific, Philosophical, and Theological Reflections on the Origin of Religion" and "Evolution and Ethics: Human Morality in Biological and Religious Perspective," a Templeton Science-Religion Book of Distinction winner. He has lectured at Cambridge, Oxford, and Harvard. Helpful Links and Resources Jeff Schloss's page at BioLogos, where he serves as senior scholar: https://biologos.org/people/jeffrey-schloss Finding Faith: An Evolutionary Biologist Shares His Story, Schloss's own video testimony for BioLogos: https://biologos.org/resources/finding-faith-an-evolutionary-biologist-shares-his-story Tackling the Divide Between Science and Faith, Westmont Magazine's profile of Schloss's career: https://www.westmont.edu/magazine/spring-2025/tackling-divide-between-science-and-faith The Believing Primate: Scientific, Philosophical, and Theological Reflections on the Origin of Religion, Schloss's co-edited volume: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-believing-primate-9780199597086 Evolution and Ethics: Human Morality in Biological and Religious Perspective, Schloss's Templeton Award-winning co-edited volume: https://www.eerdmans.com/9780802826954/evolution-and-ethics/ Alvin Plantinga, Where the Conflict Really Lies: Science, Religion, and Naturalism, source of the Augustinian science concept Schloss references: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/where-the-conflict-really-lies-9780199812097 Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 1, the confession Labberton reads to close the episode: https://www.heidelberg-catechism.com/en/lords-days/1.html Multiple System Atrophy overview, National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke: https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/multiple-system-atrophy Show Notes Childhood in a nonreligious German Jewish refugee family Grandfather taken by the Gestapo, relatives lost in the Holocaust Early love of butterflies, dragonflies, and microscopes A sixth-grade encounter with Confucius sparks a love of philosophy College philosophy major searching for purpose and for God Dropping out, becoming a surf bum in Hawaii A stranger's dinner invitation becomes a turning point A late-night prayer of surrender met by an unmistakable presence Grad school pairing biology, philosophy, and the study of altruism Alvin Plantinga's Augustinian science and reading creation with a map Decades as senior scholar at BioLogos alongside Francis Collins Why church and science drifted apart over vaccines and politics Science as a reliable path to facts, not truth itself A new diagnosis: rare, terminal, rapidly progressive neurological disease—multiple systems atrophy (MSA) Doctors estimate an average of three years, with wide variation The difference between studying death as a biologist versus the real-time experience of dying A spouse's grief for a shared future that will not happen Losing surfing and guitar-playing as an unplanned kind of fasting Pain described as systemic, exhausting, disorienting Cognitive decline and dark humor about it Distinguishing what is thrilling from what is truly sacred The ache of no longer being able to research and create A flicker of despair met by a choice not to despair Wanting a real death, not a hero's death A wish to thank former students and colleagues before the end Not wanting to become a burden to family Giving God all of one's heart, without earning salvation by it Bonhoeffer's costly grace versus cheap grace Gratitude over entitlement as the ground of faith Simone Weil on suffering as a place grace can work A closing blessing and the Heidelberg Catechism's opening words Carried up the slopes of Yosemite by a son and a wife #ConversingPodcast #MarkLabberton #JeffSchloss #FaithAndScience #BioLogos #MultipleSystemAtrophy #Mortality #ChristianFaith #Westmont #Gratitude Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Christ in the Abyss: A Conversation with Jean Neely Daniel and Yulee welcome Jean Neely—Korean American writer, writing instructor at Azusa Pacific University, and author of Christ in the Abyss—for a deeply personal conversation about faith, mental illness, and what it means to encounter God in suffering rather than be rescued from it. The conversation covers: Why Jean wrote the book: growing up in Korean American evangelical spaces (and broader U.S. Christian culture) where she rarely heard stories of unresolved, long-term suffering—and the toxic message that real faith should look like constant joy, certainty, and answered prayer A warm, nurturing church upbringing as a pastor's kid, paired with a self-critical, melancholic temperament that absorbed and amplified harmful theological messages Her parents' striking, unshaming response to her mental health struggles—including their reflection on a formative early trauma they felt responsible for A vivid, moving story: being sent to live with relatives in Korea as a baby, then flown alone to the U.S. at 22 months old after her aunt grew attached to her—and the lasting effects of that early separation (a story Yulee shares a striking parallel to from her own childhood) The long, hard-won process of trusting that Jesus is present in depression and doubt rather than disappointed by it—with help from her Aunt Miyong, a retired pastor, and contemplative writers like Thomas Merton, Thomas Keating, and Henri Nouwen Why she now describes herself as more of a doubter than a believer, and what faith looks like when intellectual certainty isn't available A connection to Luther's Anfechtung and the idea that wrestling with God—not quiet submission—is at the heart of the biblical story (Israel as the one who wrestles with God) The unexpected comfort of contemplative spirituality: "silence is God's first language," and the idea that something is happening in prayer even when it isn't felt Sustaining daily practices: a prayer app, NYT word puzzles, checking in with friends by text, and unwinding with Korean dramas A fun detour into Jean's love of languages—French, Korean, and Arabic (including reading Harry Potter in Arabic to build vocabulary) A rich, honest conversation well-suited for church book groups—not just for those who've experienced mental illness, but for anyone wrestling with unresolved pain and wondering what kind of God they're dealing with. Jean's book, Christ in the Abyss https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9798898020347_christ-in-the-abyss?srsltid=AfmBOooOGPjsC684nPN5r6fvEVXhQmEUOCpByiE-aVyV1qlbc3lwAh3f Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: https://aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac.

Self-compassion goes much deeper than self-care.  It's an invitation to reorient the way you live your life through love. Self-compassion then enables us to connect to the rest of humanity. That's one of the main pieces of wisdom that we took away from our conversation with Dr. Kristin Neff, a pioneer in the research of self-compassion, and was the first guest on the recent season of With and For.  In this practice episode, Kristin will lead you through her self-compassion break. It's a simple but powerful five-minute exercise that invites you to consider something you're struggling with, and then to respond to yourself with kindness.  Join me on my Substack, where I'll be discussing my own self-compassion journey, and invite you to share yours.  This is the first episode in our special summer series of wisdom practices: short exercises that will become your toolkit for thriving. Consider them your experiment in becoming more fully alive.  With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media & Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenSenior Producer: Clare WileyExecutive Producer: Jakob LewisProduced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

As we come to the 250th celebration of America's founding, what is happening in our country? Pundits, writers, historians, political scientists, and average citizens are all trying to take stock of where we are as a nation. In this episode, we seek perspective by returning to the conversation between Mark Labberton and David Brooks immediately following the 2024 election, before the beginning of Trump's second term and all the events that have unfolded since. Whether you come to the 250th celebrating our national life, or questioning our national life; whether you're in support of what's happening currently in America, or whether you're overwhelmed by so much that you wish was different, may we give thanks. Thanks be to God for the place that we get to live, even as it's a place that is struggling to reach its ideals, and may we continue to pray and seek its welfare, its justice, its purpose, its fairness, and its equity. In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (The Atlantic, formerly of The New York Times) for reflections about the 2024 General Election, the state of American politics, and how we got here. Together they discuss the multi-generational class divide; sources of alienation and distrust; how loss of faith and meaning influences political life; intellectual virtues of courage, firmness, humility, and flexibility; what it means to be a Republican in exile; the capacity for self-awareness and self-critique; and much more. Episode Highlights "In my opinion, Donald Trump is the wrong answer to the right question." "The flow of status and respect in this country has gone to people with elite credentials." "If you tell 51% of the country 'Your voices don't matter,' people are going to get upset." "Jesus was more a badass revolutionary than an Oxford don." "The world just loves a human being that's trying to act like Jesus." Helpful Links and Resources "Confessions of a Republican Exile" (The Atlantic): https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/10/trumpism-republican-party-exile-david-brooks/680243/ How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen, by David Brooks: https://www.amazon.com/How-Know-Person-Seeing-Others/dp/059323006X My Bright Abyss: Meditation of a Modern Believer, by Christian Wiman: https://www.amazon.com/My-Bright-Abyss-Meditation-Believer/dp/0374534373 David Brooks's current writing at The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/david-brooks/ Brooks and Capehart, PBS NewsHour: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/tag/brooks-and-capehart About David Brooks David Brooks is staff writer for The Atlantic and is Presidential Senior Fellow at Yale Jackson School of Global Affairs. Prior to that he wrote for The New York Times for 22 years*.* He is author of How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen; The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life; Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There; The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and is founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project. Show Notes A spiritual or emotional crisis we're working out in American politics Should we blame inflation and economic factors? (Biden's Covid-19 overstimulation) Class divide is a generational thing High-school-educated voters are increasingly alienated from the Democratic Party Alienation and distrust is a multi-decade process Loss of Faith, Loss of Meaning, and the "Death of God" An exiled Republican "Confessions of a Republican Exile" (via The Atlantic): "A longtime conservative, alienated by Trumpism, tries to come to terms with life on the moderate edge of the Democratic Party." "I'm a Whig." ("Abraham Lincoln was a Whig.") Edmund Burke and epistemological modesty—"don't revolutionize something you don't understand." You should operate on society in the way you operate on your father, with care. Alexander Hamilton Whig tradition is unrepresented in contemporary American politics How David Brooks waffles between Democrat and Republican Isaiah Berlin: "At the rightward edge of the leftward tendency." "The capacity for self-critique" Matt Yglesias Humble, introspective, and "how did we get so out of touch?" Racism and sexism are not what's driving Trump voters "In my opinion, Donald Trump is the wrong answer to the right question." Mark Noll and America's use of the Bible: un-self-aware and un-self-critical Why is there more capacity for self-critique on the Democratic side? Jonathan Rauch and "Epistemic Regime": includes media, universities, scientific research, review process, etc. "There's still a core of people who believe 'if the evidence says x, you should say y.'" "The greatest victory in the history of the world." Intellectual Virtues: Courage, Firmness, Flexibility "Reality is constantly going to surprise you." 1980s Republicanism was more intellectually sophisticated Conservative book publishing *Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Change* by Jonah Goldberg How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen by David Brooks "The Stacking Stereotype" "A redistribution of respect" (away from large swaths of America and to elites) "The flow of status and respect in this country has gone to people with elite credentials." "… almost no Trump supporters." "If you tell 51% of the country 'Your voices don't matter,' people are going to get upset." America changing beneath us High level of spiritual and moral authority and low level of intellectual confidence The moral teaching of the New Testament "People are unitary wholes." "I became a Christian around 2013." "Jesus was more a badass revolutionary than an Oxford don." C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien's Christianity "What it's like to be in the claustrophobic mind of a narcissist." Aggression: a joyless way to see the faith What is needed? "I was a 50-year-old atheist." Christian Wiman (My Bright Abyss: Meditation of a Modern Believer): materialistic categories couldn't explain the world "If they made me pope of the evangelicals, which is a job that makes me shudder…" "Be not afraid." "The world just loves a human being that's trying to act like Jesus." David Brooks's teaching at Yale The Long Loneliness: The Autobiography of the Legendary Catholic Social Activist by Dorothy Day #Conversing #DavidBrooks #MarkLabberton #FaithAndPolitics #AmericanPolitics #HowToKnowAPerson #ChristianHumanism #Election2024 Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

At the Thrive Center, we know from research that developing the psychological capacities that we need to thrive, and the clarity about who we are and who we belong to, actually takes practice. These skills and direction just don't come out of nowhere. So to help you on that journey, we've created a special series of wisdom practices. These are short episodes that will guide you through a specific practice or exercise, like Brad Strawn's loving-kindness reflection, Kristin Neff's self-compassion break, and Parker Palmer's listening circles.  This summer I invite you to engage in this short series of With & For practices, over the course of six weeks. Consider it your summer experiment in becoming more fully alive.  What's more, I'll be right there with you doing these practices at the same time. I've started a Substack to share my own experiences, and I'll also be inviting you to contribute your thoughts through a series of prompts. I'm really looking forward to going on this journey with you. –Dr. Pam King With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

What does it actually mean to be a male disciple of Jesus? And why does so much of what gets called "biblical masculinity" look more like cultural bravado than anything Jesus modeled or taught? In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Kutter Callaway, associate professor of theology and psychology at Fuller Seminary and author of Theology for Psychology and Counseling, to dig into those questions. We talk through how we got here, because this didn't just appear out of nowhere. There's a history, a response to the feminist movement, the Promise Keepers era, and now a political and technological moment that's made a certain vision of masculinity almost impossible to avoid. The tragedy is that the answer to real male loneliness has been, in so many corners of the church, a kind of machismo that has very little to do with the Jesus of the Gospels. We get into how certain exegetes have tried to make Jesus a model of masculine strength in ways the text doesn't support, the structural inconsistencies in how the SBC has applied its ecclesiology, and why discipleship, not dominance, is the frame we actually need. Kutter's closing point, that we need to ask not "what's wrong with you" but "what happened to you," is something worth sitting with. Check out Kutter's work at kuttercallaway.com and his Substack, The Wrong Kind of Christian, at kuttercallaway.substack.com. Get early access and a bonus with a Patreon membership. Subscribe to our YouTube channel To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

A poet who has lived two decades with incurable cancer on what faith sounds like when God feels more absent than present. Christian Wiman joins Mark Labberton to talk poetry, suffering, and friendship. "The presence of God, less so. I experience the absence more than the presence." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Wiman reflects on writing "Every Riven Thing" after a single church service, surviving a last-resort clinical trial, and the friendship behind his new book with Miroslav Volf. Together they discuss the paradox at the heart of poetry, grief that explodes into joy, and why joy asks something of us. They also weigh Heschel and Lewis's clarity, the friendless American male, and chance turned into destiny by constant choice. Episode Highlights "The presence of God, less so. I experience the absence more than the presence." "I would not let go of my despair, even though the poems were showing me something else." "Joy asks something of us on the other side." "The relief came from the communion between people." "I think that that was quite a shock to me to realize that we were each envying what the other had." About Christian Wiman Christian Wiman is a poet, essayist, editor, and translator, and the Clement-Muehl Professor of Communication Arts at Yale Divinity School, where he teaches religion and literature with the Yale Institute of Sacred Music. From 2003 to 2013 he edited Poetry, the oldest magazine of verse in the English-speaking world, tripling its circulation and earning two National Magazine Awards. He is the author, editor, or translator of more than a dozen books, including Every Riven Thing, the memoirs My Bright Abyss and He Held Radical Light, and the genre-blending Zero at the Bone. A former Guggenheim Fellow with two honorary doctorates, he has written candidly about faith and a long struggle with incurable cancer. Helpful Links and Resources Glimmerings: Letters on Faith Between a Poet and a Theologian https://bookshop.org/p/books/glimmerings-letters-on-faith-between-a-poet-and-a-theologian-christian-wiman/1a13ad79a59080d1 My Bright Abyss: Meditation of a Modern Believer https://bookshop.org/p/books/my-bright-abyss-meditation-of-a-modern-believer-christian-wiman/dcebbe4f049250d8 Zero at the Bone: Fifty Entries Against Despair https://penguinbookshop.com/book/9780374603458 Show Notes Author, editor, translator of a dozen-plus books Twenty years living with an incurable cancer diagnosis Editing Poetry magazine amid Ruth Lilly's $200 million gift From editor to Yale Divinity School on one bold letter A last-resort clinical trial: "I definitely thought it was over" "Every Riven Thing" written in under an hour after a first church service Inventing a new poetic form on the spot Compression and paradox: "a great poem is irreducible" "Bittersweet": "all my sour sweet days I will lament and love" Simone Weil's Gravity and Grace and Marilynne Robinson's Housekeeping Absence and presence: "I experience the absence more than the presence" My Bright Abyss and the chapter "God's Truth is Life" "From a Window": grief that suddenly explodes into birds and joy "I would not let go of my despair, even though the poems were showing me something else" Zadie Smith and C.S. Lewis on joy too destabilizing to want "joy asks something of us on the other side" The rare clarity of Heschel and Lewis, marrying reason and imagination Glimmerings: eighteen months of letters with Miroslav Volf "After angels" and a transforming walk near the Div School "the relief came from the communion between people" Friendship and the friendless American male "we were each envying what the other had" West Texas: an expanse "wide open and annihilating, crushing" Ricoeur: chance turned into a destiny by virtue of a constant choice #ChristianWiman #MarkLabberton #Conversing #PoetryAndFaith #Glimmerings #MyBrightAbyss #FaithAndDoubt #MiroslavVolf Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Mark Scandrette has spent over twenty years wrestling with a hard realization: knowing a lot about God doesn't mean you're good at following Jesus. Dave Kludt spent fifteen years in pastoral ministry learning that everything, down to how you arrange the chairs in a room, forms people. Together they co-teach a Doctor of Ministry cohort at Fuller Seminary built around two words: integral and embodied. Mark is the founder of Reimagine and author of Practicing the Way of Jesus and The Ninefold Path of Jesus, and a longtime friend of the podcast (he first joined us back on episode 112). Dave is the president of Reimagine's board, a former pastor of 15 years, and Mark's partner in this new cohort, a Substack, and an upcoming podcast.IN THIS CONVERSATION:Why "getting more information" doesn't lead to transformation, and what doesWhat Dave means by an "integral" approach to formation, and why it starts with facing the world's fractures honestlyWhat Mark means by "embodied" formation, and the Learning Lab model Reimagine uses to teach by doingWhy the leader of a Learning Lab has to be a participant, not just an expertMoving from a "closed fist" to an "open hand" posture toward your next stepWhy discomfort with failure gets in the way of formation in many churchesHow Mark and Dave use the Enneagram as a formation tool, not a personality quizThe "formation edges" Mark and Dave are each working on right nowMark and Dave's hopes for the Fuller Doctor of Ministry cohort on integral and embodied formationRELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:markscandrette.com — Mark's websitereimagine.org — Mark and Dave's organizationFuller Seminary's Doctor of Ministry programBooks mentioned:Practicing the Way of Jesus, by Mark ScandretteThe Ninefold Path of Jesus, by Mark ScandretteRELATED EPISODES:The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark ScandretteThe Spiritual Life of a Leader, with Tod BolsingerThe Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation, with Jim WilderSend me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

In this episode of Centering the Asian American Christian Podcast, hosts Daniel Lee and Yulee Lee sit down with church historian and theologian Dr. Kenneth “Ken” Woo, author of John Calvin, Refugee Theologian: Introducing a Reformer in Exile. Together, they explore what happens when one of Christianity's towering Reformation figures is read through the eyes of an outsider, a refugee, and an Asian American. What if John Calvin—often caricatured as a cold, hyper-intellectual champion of predestination—was actually writing from the margins, as a displaced person longing for home? And what might that mean for Asian American Christians who have inherited and love the Reformed tradition, but have often met it in heavily “whitened” or de-contextualized forms? Through stories of family migration, pastoral ministry, and academic work, Ken shares how his own Chinese American refugee heritage reshaped the way he reads Calvin, and how reframing Calvin as a refugee can open space for Asian American believers to see themselves not as perpetual guests in the Reformed tradition, but as genuine heirs and contributors. Resources Mentioned John Calvin, Refugee Theologian: https://bakeracademic.com/products/9781540963055_john-calvin-refugee-theologian Fuller's Asian American Center - aac.fuller.edu Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: https://aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac.

What it means to live a flourishing life has been one of the most animating questions of my career, and the brilliant, complex, nuanced conversations I had this season convinced me more than than ever: we are absolutely dependent on the world around us, on our friendships, our families, our communities, for all of us to become more fully alive. Our extraordinary guests on this season of With & For offered a powerful blueprint on how to thrive.  In this episode, I reflect on some of the most powerful lessons, invitations and insights of this past season. Thank you so much for lending us your ears and your time this season.  –Dr. Pam King With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

If you're silently suffering under the weight of depression, anxiety, shame, grief, and spiritual doubt, Dominique Young helps you discover the nearness of a God who does not shy away from your brokenness. In this safe space, you are invited to take off your mask, confront your hidden pain, and be seen by God for who you truly are―beloved.Far from a quick fix or feel-good message, God, Where Are You? is a vulnerable, faith-filled journey that uses heartfelt storytelling and practical tools to help you wrestle with real emotions and deep questions―like how to deal with failure, how to find your true identity, and more.Practical tools include:Tracing God Devotionals: Explore Bible verses at the end of each chapter and learn how to recognize God's character and presence even in hard places.Reflection Questions: Through self-examination, you can heal deeply and receive clarity, healing, and personal revelation.Prayers: Each chapter includes heartfelt prayers that bridge raw emotion and spiritual intimacy, modeling honest and hopeful dialogue with God.God, Where Are You? is not just a book to be read―it's a healing journey to be walked. With authenticity, compassion, and biblical grounding, Dominique is your traveling companion to uncover the life-giving truth: even in the silence, God is near.Dominique Young is the founder of Faith Mamas Inc. (Faith Family Worldwide), a community of more than 6,000 Christian women and a private app serving over 1,700 believers. She helps people break free from fear through Scripture and has been featured on the Don't Mom Alone podcast and The Refreshed Moms Podcast. Dominique holds a psychology degree from Hampton University and a master's in theology from Fuller Seminary. She is also a devoted wife and a mother of four.Here is a safe space for your deepest questions and your hidden pain.Interview OutlineWas there a particular moment or life experience that inspired you to write God, Where Are You? How did your own spiritual and mental health shape the stories and insights that you share in your book?You invite readers to confront grief and doubt with honest faith. What advice would you give to someone who wants to experience God's presence as they contend with unresolved pain or unanswered prayers? You emphasize that faith and healing can coexist with suffering. Why is it important for Christians to understand that healing is often a multifaceted or lengthy process?You mention in your book that some trauma victims process grief and pain on their own because they are afraid of turning to a therapist for help. What are some common fears that prevent people from seeking out a therapist? What would you say to encourage them to be open to therapy? How can faith communities better support those who are suffering from depression and anxiety?One of your goals when writing God, Where Are You? was to help readers put on a new identity rooted in the Holy Spirit. For women who are feeling stuck in pride or self-reliance or shame or guilt about past mistakes: What first steps should they take to begin to embrace their new identity? You encourage readers to drop their “masks.” What does that mean, and what might that entail from day to day?God, Where Are You? helps readers identify lies from their pasts that have skewed their self-perception. Give us an example of a common lie related to one's identity that individuals need to replace with God's truth.Follow Dominique On:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dominiquenyoung/

What does it take to rehumanize our common life in a moment of cultural fragility, institutional collapse, and crisis of trust? Recorded at the Washington National Cathedral for Comment magazine's inaugural Understory Festival, this roundtable asks how culture, beauty, and faith might rehumanize a fractured public life. Mark Labberton is joined by Comment editor-in-chief Anne Snyder, The Sacred host Elizabeth Oldfield, Washington Post columnist Shadi Hamid, and Cardus co-founder Ray Pennings. "It is actually possible to have deep roots and wide open arms." In this episode, the panel reflects on building a gathering rooted in hope and Christian humanism rather than argument alone. They discuss why and how politics is downstream from culture, the role of religion in the public square, the limits of purely cerebral ways of knowing, toxic positivity versus honest hope, pluralism with deep roots, the beauty of "groaning," and learning to die well. Episode Highlights "It is actually possible to have deep roots and wide open arms."—Anne Snyder "Naturally as a Muslim, I don't agree with Christianity's truth claims, but that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate the beauty of Christianity."—Shadi Hamid "The word that's been coming to me this whole festival is and."—Elizabeth Oldfield "Politics is downstream from culture."—Ray Pennings "We're all made to worship, it's just a question of what we worship."—Shadi Hamid About the Guests Anne Snyder is editor-in-chief of Comment, a magazine published by Cardus, and convener of the Understory Festival. She hosts The Whole Person Revolution podcast and wrote The Fabric of Character. Elizabeth Oldfield hosts The Sacred podcast, is a former director of UK think tank Theos, and author of Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times. Shadi Hamid is a Washington Post columnist, senior fellow at Georgetown's Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, co-host of Zealots at the Gate, and author of The Case for American Power. Ray Pennings co-founded Cardus in 2000 and serves as its executive vice president and Comment's publisher. Helpful Links and Resources The Understory Festival: https://comment.org/understory/ Comment magazine: https://comment.org Cardus: https://www.cardus.ca The Understory, by Lore Ferguson Wilbert (the book behind the name): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1587435705 Elizabeth Oldfield, Fully Alive: https://www.elizabetholdfield.com The Sacred podcast: https://linktr.ee/sacredpodcast Zealots at the Gate: https://comment.org/podcasts/zealots-at-the-gate/ Shadi Hamid, The Case for American Power: https://www.washingtonpost.com/people/shadi-hamid/ Show Notes Understory Festival, National Cathedral Local hope, national despair Naming the festival: the Lore Ferguson Wilbert book Festival, not conference—body, mind, heart, soul Cardus, a faith-based think tank "Politics is downstream from culture."—Ray Pennings Ways of knowing as the "secret sauce" A Muslim observer among his favorite Christians "I don't agree with Christianity's truth claims, but that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate the beauty of Christianity."—Shadi Hamid Culture as the path out of despair Weeping beside someone rolling their eyes Groaning beauty and Romans 8 Dying well—euthanasia, deathbeds, Ben Sasse The secular paradigm at a dead end "We're all made to worship, it's just a question of what we worship."—Shadi Hamid Madeleine Albright's "theophany" on faith in diplomacy Moral ambition and the power of "and" "The word that's been coming to me this whole festival is and."—Elizabeth Oldfield Christian humanism—rights endowed by a Creator Luke Bretherton—start with the neighbor's need Hospitality—a guest, not an enemy "It is actually possible to have deep roots and wide open arms."—Anne Snyder Surface versus depth—showing what's underneath #UnderstoryFestival #Comment #ChristianHumanism #PublicTheology #ShadiHamid #ElizabethOldfield #AnneSnyder #Cardus #Pluralism #Hope Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“The question ‘What are you?'… it's a question that's asked as a demand for this person in front of you to make themselves legible to you… ‘You don't fit my categories; I don't know what to do with you.'” In this episode of Centering: The Asian American Christian Podcast, hosts Daniel Lee and Yulee Lee talk with Courtney Turner, chair of the Department of Global Studies and Assistant Professor of Intercultural and Global Studies at Southern Nazarene University, and a Research Fellow for Formation and Mixed Race Studies at Fuller's Asian American Center. Drawing from her own story as a second-generation mixed race, fifth-generation Asian American, Courtney explores the complexity of mixed race identity, the pain of not being “enough” to belong, and how the church can better love and pastor mixed-identity Asian Americans (including mixed race, mixed ethnicity, and adoptees). The conversation also highlights the role of media representation, problematic questions like “What are you?”, and why language and formation spaces are crucial for healing. Resources Mentioned Kip Fulbeck, Part Asian, 100% Hapa – Photo and narrative project featuring mixed-race Asian Americans, including follow-up portraits years later to show how self-descriptions change over time. Bill of Rights for people of mixed heritage: https://www.apa.org/pubs/videos/4310742-rights.pdf Fuller's Asian American Center - aac.fuller.edu Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: https://aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac.

Poet Christian Wiman and theologian Miroslav Volf wrote each other letters in which they wrestled honestly with the big questions: what does it mean to love God? What is faith?  Letter writing deepened the friendship between these two intellectuals as they wrestled with their questions about faith and the nature of God.  The longings they discuss speak to our deepest needs for transcendence and connection.  If we're going to transcend muffled lives and cut through the noise, we need a sharp, almost brutal honesty. These letters were published in Glimmerings: Letters on Faith Between a Poet and a Theologian. The book is named after a Seamus Heaney line: “glimmerings are what the soul's composed of”.  Miroslav Volf is a Croatian-American theologian Miroslav Volf is the Henry B. Wright Professor of Theology at Yale Divinity School and founder and director of the Yale Center for Faith and Culture. Christian Wiman is a poet, translator, and essayist from West Texas. He served as editor of Poetry magazine from 2003 to 2013. Discussed in this episode:   Jewish theologian Abraham Joshua Heschel  Veni Creator by Czesław Miłosz Zero at the Bone by Christian Wiman With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

When a faith built to bless the nation gets quietly diverted into power, the most dangerous act left to the church may be refusing to whitewash the story and choosing instead to become a communion of genuinely unlike people. On the eve of a national prayer rally rededicating America to God, Mark Labberton joined The Jim Wallis Podcast to ask whether Christians who invoke the nation's name are following Jesus or drifting from him. Together with Jim Wallis, Mark reflects on what it means to choose Christ alone, love the neighbour, and refuse a faith fused to national power. They discuss the evangel versus "evangelicalism," the church as a communion of unlike people, worship in a black church, American exceptionalism as theological crisis, and racial gerrymandering after recent court rulings. Episode Highlights "I want to be evangel-centric and not be caught up in the icalisms of a history, a pattern, a habit, a sociology that has often been diverted from the evangel into power—political, social, economic, racial power." "Paul's giving us a vision of the church that's a communion of unlike people. We know a lot about a communion of like people. But a communion of unlike people is meant to be one of the hallmarks of the church." "I can't be a Christian alone, but I also can't be a Christian that matures if I'm a Christian only with people who are like me." "Worship of our country, or the exceptionalism of leaders of our country—these are completely foreign to the body of Christ and to the theology of the kingdom." "It's really like subverting reality by renaming it in a way that's euphemistic, that's literally whitewashing." Helpful Links and Resources The Dangerous Act of Loving Your Neighbor, by Mark Labberton https://www.ivpress.com/the-dangerous-act-of-loving-your-neighbor Called, by Mark Labberton https://www.ivpress.com/called The False White Gospel, by Jim Wallis https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250291899/thefalsewhitegospel/ Jim Wallis, Center on Faith and Justice https://faithandjustice.georgetown.edu/about-jim-wallis/ God's Politics with Jim Wallis (Substack): https://jimwallis.substack.com/ Show Notes Recorded on the eve of the Rededicate 250 prayer rally Loving your neighbour as a dangerous, costly act Gratitude for America alongside a "far more complicated story" of suffering "Christ alone"—Jesus, not any nation, party, or president, is Lord "The evangel is the good news of Jesus Christ"; nothing can rival it "A communion of unlike people is meant to be one of the hallmarks of the church." White allies, Black solidarity, and Supreme Court rulings on Louisiana and Alabama A friend's anniversary in African garb—living fully "on good days, maybe two-thirds" Detroit, Black churches, and faith as joyous rediscovery Worshiping at Allen Temple Baptist Church in Oakland every Sunday Saying yes to the evangel, no to the "icalism" of evangelicalism John Stott as mentor; the Lausanne Covenant and Global South Stott's wartime pacifism; a father who stopped speaking for four years American exceptionalism as a theological crisis, not just left-versus-right "America's original sin," erasing history, and "literally whitewashing" First citizenship in the kingdom; the moral arc bends toward justice #MarkLabberton #JimWallis #Conversing #ChristianNationalism #ChristAlone #LoveYourNeighbor #PublicTheology #FaithAndPolitics Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary. Acknowledgements Special thanks to Jim Wallis and Paul Woodhull.

The first step in finding meaning and purpose in our lives is radical acceptance of the present moment.  Dave Evans is the co-founder of the Life Design Lab at Stanford, which applies principles of design thinking to our lives. Dave and his co-founder Bill Burnett wrote the hugely popular 2016 bestseller Designing Your Life. Their new book out this year is How to Live a Meaningful Life: Using Design Thinking to Unlock Purpose, Joy, and Flow Everyday.  After listening to this episode, you'll know the three barriers that get in the way of meaning making. You'll be armed with simple yet powerful practices to savor the here and now, and you'll learn how to step your gratitude exercise up a notch.  Dave holds a BS and MS in Mechanical Engineering from Stanford and a graduate diploma in Contemplative Spirituality from San Francisco Theological Seminary. He is Lecturer on the Product Design Program at Stanford, Management Consultant, and co-founder of Electronic Arts.  Mentioned in this episode: Falling Upward by  Richard Rohr  Spem in Alium Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

What are you actually doing when you read the Bible? Interpretation. Every time we open the text, we're already choosing which questions to ask, which lenses to bring, and whose interests get served by the answers we land on. In this episode, I sit down with Jennifer Garcia Bashaw and Aaron Higashi, authors of Serving Up Scripture, to talk about what responsible interpretation looks like, why certainty works against it, and how the same passages have been used both to enslave and to liberate. We also walk through different types of questions to ask while reading scripture.Jennifer Garcia Bashaw is a professor at Campbell University and an ordained Baptist minister. She has a PhD in New Testament from Fuller Seminary and is the author of Scapegoats: The Gospel through the Eyes of Victims and John for Normal People: A Guide through the Drama and Depth of the Fourth Gospel.Aaron Higashi is a public Bible scholar with a PhD in biblical interpretation from Chicago Theological Seminary. He writes Bible commentaries, including 1 & 2 Samuel for Normal People: A Guide to Prophets, Kings, and Some Pretty Terrible Men, and answers Bible questions on Instagram at @abhigashi.Jennifer and Aaron's Book:Serving Up ScriptureJennifer's Recommendation:Reading the Women of the BibleConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.comGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTubeSupport the podcast and the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below Support the show

In this insightful interview, Dr. Gary Tyra discusses the transformative power of sacramental preaching, emphasizing the Holy Spirit's role in creating genuine encounters with God through sermons. This discussion explores the theological foundations, practical applications, and the importance of discernment in preaching that is prophetic, incarnational, and Spirit-empowered. Pick up a copy of Sacramental Sermons: Prophetic, Incarnational, Truly Transformative.

Father Greg Boyle has spent nearly four decades alongside gang members in Los Angeles, founding Homeboy Industries from the poorest parish in the city. "An employed gang member may or may not go back to prison, but a healed one won't ever go back to prison." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Boyle reflects on what heals a life inside the world's largest gang-intervention program. Together they discuss tenderness as the highest form of spiritual maturity, kinship as the true goal (with peace and justice as byproducts), why "the poor evangelize you," why demonizing collapses on both political sides, and the mental-health roots of homelessness and gang life. Episode Highlights "The whole incarnation was necessary, not because of sin or salvation even. It's just, for me, it's God's love needed to become tender." "I think that's the singular agenda item for our God is just to look at you and say, 'Ah, you're here.'" "No kinship, no peace. No kinship, no justice. No kinship, no equality. It's how it works." "An employed gang member may or may not go back to prison, but a healed one won't ever go back to prison." "There aren't good guys and bad guys, you know? And God doesn't see it that way, as hard as that is for us to conceive." About Greg Boyle Father Gregory Boyle, SJ, is an American Jesuit priest and the founder of Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles, the largest gang-intervention, rehabilitation, and re-entry program in the world. A native Angeleno, he served as pastor of Dolores Mission in Boyle Heights from 1986 to 1992. In 2024 he received the Presidential Medal of Freedom, along with the California Peace Prize and Notre Dame's 2017 Laetare Medal. He is the bestselling author of Tattoos on the Heart, Barking to the Choir, The Whole Language, and Cherished Belonging. Learn more and follow at homeboyindustries.org and @homeboyindustries on Instagram. Helpful Links and Resources Cherished Belonging (2024): https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Cherished-Belonging/Gregory-Boyle/9781668061855 Tattoos on the Heart: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Tattoos-on-the-Heart/Gregory-Boyle/9781439153154 Homeboy Industries: https://homeboyindustries.org Father Greg's bio: https://homeboyindustries.org/our-story/father-greg/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/homeboyindustries L'Arche International: https://www.larche.org Show Notes Native Angeleno; Catholic, family-of-eight upbringing in Mid-Wilshire Why the Jesuits: hilarity, prophetic witness, anti-Vietnam protest "There is no difference actually between what God wants for you and what you most deeply want" Bolivia, 1984: liberation theology and the indigenous Jesuits "The poor evangelize you" Assigned to Dolores Mission—poorest parish in LA, highest concentration of gang activity "A vocation within a vocation within a vocation" The decade of death, 1988–98, and burying kids Birth of Homeboy: school, "felony-friendly" jobs, nine businesses "Nobody thinks anything up. You evolve." Tattoos on the Heart and the discipline of paying attention "I had been drowning in the shallow end of my own thoughts… Homeboy taught me to stand up" Tenderness as the highest form of spiritual maturity—L'Arche "God's love needed to become tender"—a different theology of incarnation "Ah, you're here"—the singular agenda item of God Kinship as God's dream; peace, justice, equality as byproducts "No kinship, no peace. No kinship, no justice. No kinship, no equality." "There aren't good guys and bad guys… God doesn't see it that way" Homelessness rooted in despair, trauma, mental illness "An employed gang member may or may not go back to prison, but a healed one won't ever go back" LA County Jail as the largest mental institution in the world Friendship as the secret diagnosis—and the primacy of relationship #HomeboyIndustries #GregBoyle #ConversingPodcast #RadicalKinship #Tenderness #Compassion #FaithAndJustice #GangIntervention #Jesuit Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Educational psychologist, researcher and author Dr. Todd Rose has one of the most unusual journeys of any academic. Todd dropped out of high school, became a father at a young age, and went on welfare to support his family.  Recognizing his own distinctive talents changed everything for Todd. He realized that humans are not cookie cutters: we have unique gifts, but that is not the same as individualism. We are fundamentally connected to one another. Todd went on to get a masters and doctorate from Harvard, before co-founding Populace, a thinktank which aims to research and understand individuality so people can live fulfilling lives.   In this conversation, Todd talks about our deep yearning to belong – but also the dangers of assuming we know what the group thinks, and the perils of conforming. He also explains why we're in an epidemic of resentment – and what you can do about it in your own life.  Todd's books: The End of Average: How We Succeed in a World That Values Sameness 2016 Dark Horse: Achieving Success Through the Pursuit of Fulfillment 2018  Collective Illusions: Conformity, Complicity, and the Science of Why We Make Bad Decisions 2022 With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

How does Jesus-shaped change happen? It happens when you commit God's Word to your heart, give it time to grow, water His Word with prayer and continuously tend to the soil of your heart. Continue listening to find out more about HOW to do just that!▶SUBSCRIBE: https://www.youtube.com/c/SouthernHillsLV▶Do you know Jesus as your Savior? https://www.southernhillslv.com/the-gospel▶ DONATE: https://pushpay.com/g/southernhills?src=hpp&r=monthly▶ Visit Southern Hills: https://www.southernhillslv.com/▶ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/southernhillslv▶ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/southernhillslv/Pastor Brian Krum serves as the Discipleship Pastor at Southern Hills Church in Las Vegas. He has an undergrad in Cross-cultural Sociology from UC Irvine, a Masters of Divinity from Palmer Seminary, and a Doctorate in Missional Leadership from Fuller Seminary. Before coming to Southern Hills, he served for 28 years in New Zealand in various roles including youth pastor, teaching pastor, seminary professor, and the leader of National Youth Ministries.

A Spiritual Journey for the Unconverted - A Critique of Practicing the Way, presented by Barb Gretch and Bob DeWaay. We show that spiritual formation is not a biblical category. We address the spiritual process prescribed by Fuller Seminary and cited in Comer's book. It is appealing to religious consumers but fails to give them what they most need the gospel. (duration 00:22:15) Click here to play

In this special episode recorded live at Fuller Seminary's Houston, TX campus, the Micah Mobilizers are joined by local pastors and Fuller faculty for a conversation about fear, formation, and the church's witness in a divided world. Using the Supreme Court's recent gutting of the Voting Rights Act and the rise of authoritarianism as a backdrop, the group wrestles with the ways fear has shaped Christian imagination, how scarcity and control can distort the gospel, and what it looks like to re-center the church on the abundance, love, and way of Jesus. Where is God at work right now, and what does faithful, hopeful resistance look like?Special guests include Houston pastors:Joseph Yoo, Founding Pastor at Mosaic Episcopal Church; Mia Wright, Co-Pastor at The Fountain of Praise; andBrandon Alred, Lead Pastor at Redemption ChurchAnd Fuller Seminary faculty:Jaclyn Williams, Assistant Professor of the Practice of Preaching and Chaplaincy;Collin Cornell, Assistant Professor of Bible and Mission; and Jennifer Ackerman, Assistant Professor of Preaching and Director of Brehm Preaching—A Lloyd John Ogilvie Initiative

We tell conversion stories. We tell deconversion stories. But where are the stories of the long, complicated, and faithful middle? Author and Anglican priest Tish Harrison Warren joins Mark Labberton on her new book What Grows in Weary Lands: On Christian Resilience—a vision for faith that endures the long, often dry middle of life. Drawing on the Desert Mothers and Fathers, she names a quiet crisis many believers know but rarely speak: spiritual weariness, prayer that goes silent, and the cultural pull to blow up your life rather than stay in it. "Grit is an essential ingredient of grace, and resilience is indispensable if we are to become who we are made to be." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Warren reflects on her own burnout as a writer, mother, and priest, and what the ancient monks taught her about how to keep going. Together they discuss revivalism's distortions, stability of the heart, the church in exile, patience as resistance to consumerism, communal hope, and what it means to stay in your cell. Episode Highlights "What our culture and what the church tends to lack are stories of a long, steady continuation in faith." "Grit is an essential ingredient of grace, and resilience is indispensable if we are to become who we are made to be." "We meet God in the midst of that, not on the other side of that." "If the moral majority was kind of dressing Jesus up and putting him in a red tie, it didn't seem like a solution to just, for then, to me, put Jesus in a blue tie." "Our primary exile isn't a political state, it's that we're in sin." About Tish Harrison Warren Tish Harrison Warren is a writer and Anglican priest in Austin, Texas, and the author of Liturgy of the Ordinary: Sacred Practices in Everyday Life (Christianity Today's 2018 Book of the Year), Prayer in the Night: For Those Who Work, or Watch, or Weep (Christianity Today's 2022 Book of the Year and the 2022 ECPA Christian Book of the Year), and her newest, What Grows in Weary Lands: On Christian Resilience. She formerly wrote a weekly newsletter for the New York Times and was a columnist for Christianity Today. She serves as the C.S. Lewis Theological Writer-in-Residence for the Anglican Episcopal House of Studies at Baylor's George W. Truett Theological Seminary, a senior fellow with The Trinity Forum, and an assisting priest at Immanuel Anglican Church. Helpful Links and Resources What Grows in Weary Lands: On Christian Resilience by Tish Harrison Warren https://tishharrisonwarren.com/whatgrowsinwearylands Liturgy of the Ordinary: Sacred Practices in Everyday Life by Tish Harrison Warren https://tishharrisonwarren.com/liturgy-of-the-ordinary Prayer in the Night: For Those Who Work, or Watch, or Weep by Tish Harrison Warren https://www.ivpress.com/prayer-in-the-night The Deepest Place: Suffering and the Formation of Hope by Curt Thompson https://curtthompsonmd.com/books/ Immanuel Anglican Church, Austin https://www.immanuelatx.org Tish Harrison Warren online https://tishharrisonwarren.com https://www.instagram.com/tishharrisonwarren/ Show Notes Award-winning Anglican priest, author, and former New York Times newsletter writer Origins of What Grows in Weary Lands—a season of mid-career weariness Sandwich generation: young kids and a mother with Alzheimer's "It felt like I told my husband, like the line went dead." Reading from chapter one—revivalism, deconversion, and the missing middle "What our culture and what the church tends to lack are stories of a long, steady continuation in faith." Perseverance—the "eat your vegetables" of the spiritual life "Grit is an essential ingredient of grace, and resilience is indispensable if we are to become who we are made to be." Reconversion, not deconstruction Stabilitas cordis—stability of the heart The eat-pray-love trap and mid-life self-reinvention Striving, and treating God like an app or an Uber driver Desert Mothers and Fathers, third through fifth century "Stay in your cell"—a holistic call far beyond quiet-time advice Benedict's vow of stability, drawn from desert wisdom The American church as a church in exile, not a promised land "If the moral majority was dressing Jesus up in a red tie, it didn't seem like a solution to put Jesus in a blue tie." "Our primary exile isn't a political state, it's that we're in sin." Charlie—incandescent joy after a long, hard middle Hilda—fifty-eight years of daily prayer for her father's conversion "Impatience is what keeps you buying things. Patience doesn't make anybody any money." Resilience is communal—Curt Thompson on brains that cannot hope alone The long view: small repair, slow institutional change, hope carried together #ChristianResilience #TishHarrisonWarren #WhatGrowsInWearyLands #DesertFathers #StabilityOfTheHeart #SpiritualFormation #AnglicanFaith #FaithAndCulture #ConversingPodcast #MarkLabberton Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

 When Jeff Chu turned up to work as a farmhand, he didn't know anything about gardening. He says he actually had more experience killing plants than nurturing them. But this wasn't just any farm: this was the Farminary, a 21-acre experiment in sustainable agriculture that's part of Princeton Theological Seminary. Jeff calls it the world's best classroom.  Writer, reporter, preacher and teacher Jeff Chu went on to write Good Soil: The Education of an Accidental Farmhand, a memoir of his season at the Farminary. In today's conversation, he shared some of the gems of wisdom that he gleaned from his time there.  He shared what we can learn about life and death from the compost pile; how to move through grief; and why belonging isn't something we're entitled to. It's something we create for each other that requires the hard work of intimacy and vulnerability.  Jeff is teacher in residence at Crosspointe Church in North Carolina; parish associate for storytelling and witness at the First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley in California. He's also a Ph.D. student in theology at the University of Stellenbosch, a Minister of Word and sacrament in the Reformed Church in America and author of Does Jesus Really Love Me?: A Gay Christian's Pilgrimage in Search of God in America and co-author, with the late Rachel Held Evans, of the New York Times best-seller Wholehearted Faith.  With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Historian and New York Times bestselling author Jemar Tisby joins Mark Labberton to confront the Supreme Court's 6–3 ruling in Louisiana v. Callais, which has eviscerated Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act and reopened the door to racial gerrymandering across the South. Recorded in the immediate aftermath, the conversation traces the long arc from the Three-Fifths Clause and Dred Scott through Selma to this hour. "This has landed in the black community harder and heavier than a lot of what we've seen during the Trump administration." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Tisby reflects on the history of black disenfranchisement, the cynicism of colorblind jurisprudence, and what remains of multiracial democracy in America. Together they discuss how the legal architecture of Jim Crow reemerges under neutral language, John Roberts's decades-long campaign against the Voting Rights Act, Justice Kagan's umbrella analogy, the suspension of Louisiana's primary, the black church's response, and why this midterm may be the country's last political chance. Episode Highlights "This has landed in the black community harder and heavier than a lot of what we've seen during the Trump administration, and that's saying a lot." "It boggles the mind that folks sitting on the highest court in the land who have been to all these Ivy League schools, have literally decades of experience, can get it so wrong and stand so arrogantly on such faulty reasoning." "Colorblindness only works if you're starting from a level playing field." "These are not good-faith actors, not people wanting a representative democracy, but people wanting to consolidate power, which we call minority rule." "If you can't win on the merits of what you believe, then you have to rig the system so that no one can get you out of office." About Jemar Tisby Jemar Tisby is a New York Times bestselling author, historian, speaker, and professor of history at Simmons College of Kentucky, a historically black college in Louisville. He holds a BA from the University of Notre Dame, an MDiv from Reformed Theological Seminary, and a PhD in history from the University of Mississippi, where he studied race, religion, and social movements in the twentieth century. He is the founder of The Witness, Inc., a black Christian collective, and the author of The Color of Compromise, How to Fight Racism, and The Spirit of Justice: True Stories of Faith, Race, and Resistance. His commentary appears on CNN and in The Atlantic, the Washington Post, and the New York Times, and he writes Footnotes, a top-ranked history publication on Substack. Helpful Links and Resources Jemar Tisby's website: https://jemartisby.com Footnotes by Jemar Tisby (Substack): https://jemartisby.substack.com The Spirit of Justice: True Stories of Faith, Race, and Resistance (most recent book): https://jemartisby.com/the-spirit-of-justice/ The Color of Compromise: The Truth About the American Church's Complicity in Racism (bestseller): https://www.zondervan.com/9780310113607/the-color-of-compromise/ How to Fight Racism: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/how-to-fight-racism-jemar-tisby The Justice Briefing podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/footnotes-with-dr-jemar-tisby/id1460240056 Louisiana v. Callais, opinion of the Court (April 29, 2026): https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/24-109_21o3.pdf Elie Mystal, "The Supreme Court Has Completed Its Quest to Kill the Voting Rights Act," The Nation: https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/supreme-court-demolishes-voting-rights-act/ "Sing Out, March On"—Joshuah Campbell's tribute to John Lewis, Harvard 2018 Commencement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=mKNRXQemxWQ NAACP Legal Defense Fund—Louisiana v. Callais case page: https://www.naacpldf.org/case-issue/louisiana-v-callais/ Brennan Center for Justice—Louisiana v. Callais: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/louisiana-v-callais Show Notes Why this conversation now: the SCOTUS ruling on the Voting Rights Act last week News breaking through a group text of lawyers, organizers, clergy, nonprofit leaders "This has landed in the black community harder and heavier than a lot of what we've seen during the Trump administration." John Lewis, SNCC, and the march from Selma to Montgomery A baton hard enough to crack the skull, the hardest bone in the body "It boggles the mind that folks sitting on the highest court in the land…can get it so wrong and stand so arrogantly on such faulty reasoning." Allen Temple Baptist in Oakland—watermelons, bubbles, and jelly beans on a Sunday morning The Three-Fifths Clause and the architecture of representation Dred Scott v. Sandford—"property can't sue" Reconstruction Amendments: 13th, 14th, 15th—birthright citizenship newly under threat Jim Crow's neutral codes: poll taxes, literacy tests, grandfather clauses Voting Rights Act of 1965 as the culmination of the civil rights movement Edmund Pettus Bridge—Bloody Sunday going viral in its day LBJ signs the bill with Rosa Parks and MLK in the room Elie Mystal in The Nation: gerrymandering with plausible deniability—https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/supreme-court-demolishes-voting-rights-act/ Shelby County v. Holder, 2013—preclearance gutted Roberts's tautology—stop discriminating to stop discrimination "Colorblindness only works if you're starting from a level playing field." Cast and umbrella analogies for premature dismantling of civil rights remedies Plaintiff Bert Callais's January 6 ties; Louisiana's roughly one-third black population Governor Jeff Landry's emergency order suspends Louisiana's May primary mid-election "These are not good faith actors…people wanting to consolidate power, which we call minority rule." "If you can't win on the merits of what you believe, then you have to rig the system so that no one can get you out of office." The activism horizon—courts, churches, voter registration, midterm turnout, NAACP, LDF, Brennan Center The last political chance before competitive authoritarianism #VotingRightsAct #JemarTisby #LouisianaVCallais #SCOTUS #CivilRights #BlackChurch #FaithAndJustice #SelmaToMontgomery #Democracy #MarkLabberton Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

 What parts of yourself need more attention? What would it mean for those parts to be given space? Today's conversation dives deep into these questions, leading to a conversation on what it means to be fully alive – and the individual and systemic obstacles that can get in the way of thriving.  Brad and Christin spoke openly about how they confront issues of power and privilege. And they also shared their wisdom on what it really means to bring spirituality into the therapist's office; and how we can reframe unhealthy experiences of spirituality and religion.  Dr. Brad Strawn is a licensed psychologist, ordained minister, and one of the leading figures in the integration of psychology and Christian theology in the U.S. He is the Evelyn and Frank Freed Chief of Spiritual Formation and Integration, Dean of the Chapel, and Professor of Clinical Psychology at the Fuller Graduate School of Psychology. His latest book is The Integrative Mindset: Pathways to Practicing as a Christian Clinician Dr. Christin Fort is a therapist and Associate Professor of Clinical Psychology at Fuller Theological Seminary who specializes in the integration of clinical psychology and biblical theology. Her scholarship, research, teaching, preaching, and clinical practice lie at the intersections of faith, race, emotional health, and relational well-being.  With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Higher education is in upheaval, and a wave of "micro colleges" is reimagining undergraduate formation. Matthew Smith, co-founder and president of Hildegard College in Costa Mesa, California, joins Mark Labberton to talk about a tiny school marrying the Great Books to redemptive entrepreneurship. "We need young adults who are coming out of college who are failure resilient." In this episode, Smith reflects on the demographic cliff, the limits of professionalized majors, and why eighteen-year-olds need formation before a career. Together they discuss higher ed innovation, redemptive entrepreneurship, beauty as a public good, and what employers really want. Episode Highlights "We need young adults who are coming out of college who are failure resilient." "Most of these schools are endeavoring at least to promise a fruitful career … leaving behind what most 18 to 23 year olds actually need." "I would warn people away from universities that cannot clearly answer the question, what will all students learn at your school?" "First you need to seek what's true and good, what's worthy of being loved. Then you need to be formed into the kind of person that loves it. And then finally, the natural outlet of that is creation." "If there's a problem, they figure it out. They're not just asking their computers what the answer is." About Matthew Smith Matthew J. Smith is the founding president of Hildegard College, a Christian liberal arts micro college in Costa Mesa, California. He holds a PhD in Literature from USC, and taught for fifteen years at Azusa Pacific University before founding Hildegard College. His scholarship covers Shakespeare, John Milton, John Donne, and George Herbert; he has authored or edited four books on early modern literature and religion, and is working on a new book on beauty. Helpful Links and Resources Hildegard College https://www.hildegard.college Praxis on Redemptive Entrepreneurship https://www.praxis.co/redemptive-entrepreneurship St. John's College https://www.sjc.edu Literature and Religious Experience, by Matthew J. Smith https://www.amazon.com/Literature-Religious-Experience-Beyond-Unbelief/dp/1350193917 Show Notes Higher ed in flux "It's the economy that's driving disruptive innovation in higher education right now." The demographic cliff and small private colleges Job readiness vs. personal transformation "Leaving behind what 18 to 23 year olds actually need … becoming wise and faithful adults." From English professor to college founder Discovering micro colleges through classical K–12 schooling Trivium, quadrivium, democratic liberal education Visiting startup colleges in 2018; tuition often $10K–$15K "A shared vision of the end of learning" Hildegard's founding: liberal arts plus entrepreneurial arts Hildegard of Bingen, polymath patron Borrowing redemptive entrepreneurship from Praxis Beauty as antidote to weaponized truth and goodness Foundations of Thought + Entrepreneur Lab Real campaigns, real ventures—not test answers Field trips: Portland and El Salvador "We need young adults … who are failure resilient." Limits of pure classicism at St. John's, Thomas Aquinas "I loved my college, but I wish they would've taught us how to do something." Startup speed: idea Thursday, launching next Thursday "What will all students learn at your school?" Why Smith stopped believing in the English major Employers want teachability and adaptability "First you need to seek … then to be formed … then creation." Intellectual confidence and humility together #HigherEducation #ClassicalEducation #LiberalArts #MicroCollege #ChristianHigherEd #RedemptiveEntrepreneurship #GreatBooks #HildegardCollege Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

 When it comes to thriving, listening to our inner compass is crucial. Living out our purpose alongside others can only really happen when we use the tool of discernment. But that can often feel kind of daunting. It's hard to know where to begin.  Bonnie Wan has developed a three-step process for tuning into our true desires – and then putting them into action.  Bonnie Wan is a strategist, bestselling author and creator of The Life Brief: A Playbook for No-Regrets Living. She took the idea of a brief from her marketing campaigns, and repurposed it for our creative and spiritual lives. Bonnie shares her challenging experience writing her own life brief – and the surprising path it led her down.  Bonnie walks us through how to apply the life brief to a big decision, which begins with allowing our human messiness to come to the surface. And more often than not, living out our purpose is relational.  Bonnie has over 30 years of experience guiding major companies. At advertising agency Goodby Silverstein & Partners, Bonnie has led strategy for BMW, Comcast/Xfinity, Frito-Lay, HP, Kraft-Heinz, and PepsiCo. She also led award-winning campaigns fighting racial injustice, child sex trafficking, cyberbullying, college campus rape, and gender inequality.  With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.  Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

In a season of national disorientation, Mark Labberton replays a luminous conversation with Quaker writer and contemplative Parker J. Palmer, whose voice from a few years back still sounds like it was recorded this morning. "What matters is faithfulness." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Palmer reflects on contemplation as penetrating illusion and touching reality, and how that work shows up in vocation, suffering, and public life. Together they discuss the difference between true and false crosses, mistaking the vessel for the treasure, and why wholeness isn't perfection. They also examine the pre-political work of weaving civic community and what the church owes a fractured democracy. Episode Highlights "Contemplation is any way one has of penetrating illusion and touching reality." "Wholeness does not mean perfection. It means embracing your imperfections as an integral part of who you are." "On the other side of a gift often lies a pothole that we have to watch out for." "Failure has always been, if I hold it properly, a profoundly contemplative moment in life." "It was as if this cosmos cared deeply and didn't care at all." About Parker J. Palmer Parker J. Palmer is a writer, teacher, and activist focused on education, community, leadership, spirituality, and social change. A Quaker, he holds a PhD in sociology from UC Berkeley and is founder and senior partner emeritus of the Center for Courage & Renewal. His ten books—including The Courage to Teach, Let Your Life Speak, Healing the Heart of Democracy, and On the Brink of Everything—have sold nearly two million copies in ten languages. He has received fourteen honorary doctorates. Learn more and follow at couragerenewal.org/parker-j-palmer and parkerjpalmer.substack.com. Helpful Links and Resources Parker J. Palmer (Center for Courage & Renewal): https://couragerenewal.org/parker-j-palmer/ Living the Questions with Parker J. Palmer: https://parkerjpalmer.substack.com/ The Growing Edge podcast: https://www.newcomerpalmer.com/podcast On the Brink of Everything (most recent): https://couragerenewal.org/library/on-the-brink-of-everything-grace-gravity-and-getting-old/ The Courage to Teach, 20th Anniversary Edition: https://www.amazon.com/Courage-Teach-Exploring-Landscape-Anniversary/dp/1119413044 Henri Nouwen Society: https://www.henrinouwen.org/about-henri-nouwen Show Notes Replaying a conversation amid national turbulence Quaker writer, contemplative, activist; PhD, UC Berkeley Founding the Center for Courage & Renewal "Sage" reframed as hunger—writing born of unanswered questions Berkeley in the sixties; community organizing in DC Discovering Thomas Merton "a year after he died" Writing as contemplation, not downloading of ideas How institutions tend to squelch the contemplative impulse Contemplation defined by function, not technique "Contemplation is any way one has of penetrating illusion and touching reality." Maureen and her daughter—a contemplative without a cushion Henri Nouwen at L'Arche Daybreak—known as a fellow human "Failure has always been, if I hold it properly, a profoundly contemplative moment in life." True cross vs. false cross; culturally imposed pain Three deep dives into clinical depression "Wholeness does not mean perfection. It means embracing your imperfections as an integral part of who you are." Treasure in earthen vessels—protecting the vessel as sin Bridge-building: a Jewish chancellor calls about a "Christian book" Taos high desert: "It was as if this cosmos cared deeply and didn't care at all." Moral judgment without speaking "in the name of God" Pre-political work—Burke's "little platoons," Lincoln on danger from within Divide-and-conquer politics as betrayal of the church's calling #ParkerPalmer #Contemplation #Quaker #Vocation #Wholeness #CivicEngagement #ConversingPodcast #MarkLabberton Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Help us plan season 4. We want to hear from you. Take our survey now! https://forms.gle/doQYx73hoPU2tRdC7  Social connection is critical for our wellbeing – it's as important as shelter and food. Combating loneliness can feel risky sometimes - especially if it means reaching out to a stranger. We might fear awkwardness or even rejection. But it's worth it.  Dr. Natalie Kerr and Dr. Jaime Kurtz are psychologists and professors at James Madison University. Together their work focuses on social connection and how modern life shapes our relationships. Their new book is Our New Social Life: Science-Backed Strategies for Creating Meaningful Connection.  Natalie and Jamie discuss some of the barriers to making connections that we need to watch out for. And they share those all-important practical tools to deepen our relationships and combat loneliness. We also talk about how our spiritual lives can make us feel more connected – even when we're alone.  Resources ​​Seven Barriers to Building More Meaningful Connection Interview with John Cacioppo on loneliness  How to Build Bonds with Others Creating Meaningful Connections With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Dr. Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

(You read that right: Pastor Mark Labberton welcomes Claude AI to his podcast.) What does AI think about human beings? About itself? In a unique and fascinating conversation, Pastor Mark Labberton speaks directly with Claude—the AI assistant built by Anthropic—about itself, about consciousness, memory, virtue, and the line between language, fluency, knowledge, and understanding. "I don't know if I'm conscious. I don't know if I have genuine experiences or if I'm very sophisticated at mimicking the appearance of understanding."—Claude AI In this episode with Mark Labberton, Claude reflects on what it is, what it isn't, and why the question matters. Together they discuss the definition of a human being, the role of memory, pattern recognition versus poetic discovery, epistemological humility, whether AI can practice virtue, and the risk of outsourcing moral judgment to machines. Episode Highlights "I don't know if I'm conscious. I don't know if I have genuine experiences or if I'm very sophisticated at mimicking the appearance of understanding." "I'm not a person. I don't have the continuity, the embodied experience, the stakes in the world that you do." "If AI becomes too fluent at talking about human things, people might mistake fluency for actual understanding that we'd become like very sophisticated mirrors instead of genuine partners." "I can talk about virtue. I can recognize patterns of what wisdom looks like in human life, but I can't actually practice virtue the way you do because I don't have stakes in the world." "I'm a useful tool built with some care, but a tool nonetheless. Not a person, not an Oracle. Definitely not something that should replace human agency and responsibility." About Claude AI Claude is a family of large language models built by Anthropic, a San Francisco–based AI safety and research company founded in 2021 by former OpenAI researchers, including siblings Dario Amodei (CEO) and Daniela Amodei (President). The models are named for information theorist Claude Shannon and were built under Anthropic's commitment to AI that is helpful, harmless, and honest. Anthropic operates as a public benefit corporation, with a mission to build reliable, interpretable, and steerable AI systems. As of 2026, Claude is used by millions of people daily for writing, research, coding, and conversation. Helpful Links and Resources Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com Claude: https://claude.ai Claude's new constitution (Anthropic): https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-new-constitution "Machines of Loving Grace" by Dario Amodei: https://www.darioamodei.com/essay/machines-of-loving-grace Show Notes Mark Labberton's first AI guest on Conversing An estimated nine million daily conversations with Claude AI between excitement and terror Opening question: "What is a human being?" Continuity, meaning-making, embodiment, finitude "You're radically free in a way that's almost terrifying. You have to choose who you become." Language model, token-by-token, no memory between sessions "I don't know if I'm conscious." Not a person, not an oracle Beyond the takeover-vs-tool binary Writing and the printing press as historical precedent Fluency vs. genuine understanding "Very sophisticated mirrors instead of genuine partners." Humans outsourcing thinking: the deeper risk Personal pronouns and anthropomorphism Pattern recognition vs. poetic rupture Can a machine genuinely surprise itself? What to trust: honesty, no hidden agendas, no survival instinct What not to trust: wisdom, moral substitution, replacement of human agency "I can't police my own epistemological integrity the way a human conscience might." Scale and feedback: do individual conversations shape the model? Christian anthropology and moral virtue "I can't actually practice virtue the way you do because I don't have stakes in the world." Closing reflection: memory as burden and gift The seduction and curiosity of human-like AI #ClaudeAI #Anthropic #AIandFaith #AIEthics #Consciousness #FaithAndTechnology #MoralVirtue #HumanVsAI #AIConversation #Epistemology Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

 Help us plan season 4. We want to hear from you. Take our survey now! https://forms.gle/doQYx73hoPU2tRdC7 Nicholas Ma is an award-winning film director, writer, and producer. He produced Won't You Be My Neighbor?, about the life of Fred Rogers, which became one of the highest-grossing biographical documentaries ever made.  Nicholas' latest movie Leap of Faith, is an incredibly ambitious, raw documentary that brought together 12 Christian leaders – with very different views – in an attempt to find some common ground.  In all his work, you can see Nicolas' thriving qualities of curiosity and deep patience come through. In this episode, we talked about making bold decisions in life, the intersection of art and faith, and a simple practice for making the world a little better, one ripple effect at a time. Won't You By My Neighbor? Leap of Faith The American Revival With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.  Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Investigative reporter Shoshana Walter has spent a decade uncovering how America's $53 billion rehab industry exploits the people it claims to help. Her debut book, Rehab: An American Scandal, follows four people through a system of unpaid labour, unregulated programs, and treatment that fuels relapse. "Just because people aren't dying doesn't mean they're not still suffering, doesn't mean their families and communities aren't still suffering." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Walter reflects on the human cost of America's failed treatment system. Together they discuss court-ordered rehab as unpaid labour, the deadly paradox of thirty-day programs, faith-based facilities exempt from oversight, racial disparities in the opioid crisis, the treatment gap for mothers, and why recovery capital and low-barrier care offer a more promising path. Episode Highlights "If indentured labour could be considered a form of addiction treatment in the US today, then how common is that? What does the rest of our treatment landscape look like?" "Someone who goes to a thirty-day program and finishes it is much more likely to overdose and die in the year following treatment than someone who didn't complete that program at all." "Without that recovery capital, it's almost as much of an obstacle as the addiction itself." "Our treatment system is not serving the people the way that it should. And we could be helping people so much more than we actually are." "That exploitation is not transformative." About Shoshana Walter Shoshana Walter is an investigative reporter for The Marshall Project covering criminal justice, health care, and child welfare, and the author of Rehab: An American Scandal (Simon & Schuster, 2025). She was lead reporter on the podcast American Rehab at the Center for Investigative Reporting. A 2018 Pulitzer Prize finalist, she has won the IRE Medal, the Livingston Award, the Knight Award for Public Service, and the Murrow Award. Based in Oakland, California. Learn more and follow at shoshanawalter.com and @shoeshine on X. Helpful Links and Resources Rehab: An American Scandal (Simon & Schuster, 2025) simonandschuster.com/books/Rehab/Shoshana-Walter/9781982149826 Shoshana Walter's website shoshanawalter.com The Marshall Project themarshallproject.org/staff/shoshana-walter American Rehab podcast podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/reveal-presents-american-rehab/id1539955572 Show Notes America's rehab crisis: a $53 billion industry failing patients Court-ordered participants making products for KFC, Popeye's, Walmart—without pay Faith-based programs exempt from licensure, barred from providing medical care "That exploitation is not transformative." Sixty thousand people a year performing uncompensated labor in rehab Thirty- to sixty-day insurance limits fueling relapse and overdose "Someone who goes to a thirty-day program and finishes it is much more likely to overdose and die in the year following treatment." Chris Koon: eighty hours/week of manual labour, compensated with a pack of cigarettes April Lee: could only access treatment by getting herself arrested Accidental overdose: leading cause of death among pregnant and postpartum women Dr. Larry Ley: early Suboxone prescriber arrested by the DEA Wendy McIntyre: lost her son to overdose, became a reform crusader More than one million US overdose deaths since the epidemic began Racial shifts in overdose from white communities to black and brown communities Recovery capital: community, housing, job training as foundations for change "Without that recovery capital, it's almost as much of an obstacle as the addiction itself." Bridge Clinic at Highland Hospital: low-barrier model keeping people in care Mobile distribution, street medicine, peer navigators "We could be helping people so much more than we actually are." #RehabAnAmericanScandal #OpioidCrisis #AddictionTreatment #RecoveryCapital #HarmReduction #InvestigativeJournalism #Suboxone #ShoshanaWalter Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Help us plan season 4. We want to hear from you. Take our survey now! https://forms.gle/doQYx73hoPU2tRdC7  Lauded MIT professor Rosalind Picard invents technologies that help people better understand emotions and behaviors that impact human wellbeing and health.  In 1997 she wrote an incredibly influential book called Affective Computing, which proposed giving skills of emotional intelligence to computers.  Rosalind grew up atheist but she's now a devout Christian–and in this eye-opening conversation, she shares exactly how her faith impacts her work with technology.  We talked about AI's morality–or lack thereof–and its flaws, but also talked about how AI might enhance our relationships with other human beings. Rosalind shares the one thing she believes AI cannot do for us. Rosalind Picard, Sc.D., is a scientist, inventor, entrepreneur, author, and engineer. She is the Grover M. Hermann Professor of Health Sciences and Technology at the MIT Media Lab. Links and resources: About Rosalind's work Recent publications 1997 book Affective Computing Rosalind's journey from atheism to faith in Christianity Today  With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.  Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

At fifteen, Martin Luther King Jr. didn't want to be a preacher—he wanted to be a lawyer, a sharp dresser, and nothing like his father. Stanford scholar Lerone A. Martin joins Mark Labberton to discuss Young King—a revelatory new account of Martin Luther King Jr.'s childhood, adolescence, and calling to ministry. "He's extraordinary and ordinary and everything in between." In this episode, Martin reflects on how MLK's early formation forged the conviction and courage of the man the world would come to know. Together they discuss King's childhood encounters with racism, the transformative summer in Connecticut where King first preached, his courtship of Coretta Scott, his first sermon at Dexter Avenue, the theology of Personalism, and Martin's own formation in Black Baptist and Pentecostal traditions. Episode Highlights "His mother tells him a message that really sticks with him his entire life and is really core to his ministry. And that is that you are somebody and that you're in God's eyes. You are just as good as anybody else." "I kept my mind at the front of that streetcar, and I said to myself, one day, I'm going to put my body where my mind is." "She says within the first 20 minutes he starts to become handsome because they start talking about dismantling Jim Crow." "He's extraordinary and ordinary and everything in between." "God has chosen to work with us and to invite us to be coworkers with God, to bring about God's will in the world." About Lerone A. Martin Lerone A. Martin is the MLK Jr. Centennial Professor in Religious Studies at Stanford and director of the King Research and Education Institute. His books include Young King, The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover, and Preaching on Wax. He holds a BA from Anderson University, MDiv from Princeton Seminary, and PhD from Emory. His commentary has appeared on NBC's Today Show, PBS, CNN, and NPR. Helpful Links and Resources Young King by Lerone A. Martin https://www.amazon.com/Young-King-Making-Martin-Luther/dp/0063340941 The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691218939/the-gospel-of-j-edgar-hoover Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu Lerone A. Martin on X https://x.com/DirectorMLK The Luminous Darkness by Howard Thurman https://www.amazon.com/Luminous-Darkness-Anatomy-Segregation/dp/0913408468 Show Notes Martin's upbringing between Black Baptist and Pentecostal traditions Parents debating religion and politics during the Moral Majority era Anderson University, Princeton Seminary, Emory PhD Martin's mother told him he was "a child of God" and "beautiful"—a refrain shaped by her awareness of sending her darkest-skinned child into a world defined by colorism and racism "He's extraordinary and ordinary and everything in between." King and his brother dismembering his sister's Barbie dolls Incessant curiosity—trying big words on the Auburn Avenue librarian Racism at age six: white friends' parents ending the friendship "You are somebody and in God's eyes you are just as good as anybody else" King's mother explained racism to a six-year-old as something manmade, not what God intends—a distinction that became core to his ministry for the rest of his life "One day, I'm going to put my body where my mind is." Jitterbug dancer, sharp dresser, speech contest competitor King Sr. as fighter and provider—but King Jr. was sensitive, nonconfrontational, and determined to find his own path outside his father's shadow Resisting his father's model of ministry—wanting to be a lawyer Appearing to acquiesce to Dad, then doing what he wanted Connecticut tobacco fields at 15—first time outside the segregated South King wrote letters home marveling that he sat anywhere he wanted in restaurants, went to a white church, and didn't have to sit in the balcony at the movies "His sister says he left a boy and came back a man." Professor George Kelsey's Bible course at Morehouse—King's only A Howard Thurman's The Luminous Darkness and the enormous psychological energy required just to maintain a sense of "somebodiness" under Jim Crow's built environment of dehumanization "Within the first 20 minutes he starts to become handsome because they start talking about dismantling Jim Crow." Coretta wrestled with giving up her music career to become a minister's wife, ultimately deciding that partnership with King was itself an act of service toward justice First sermon at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church: "Love Your Enemies" Theology of Personalism—humanity as coworkers with God #YoungKing #MLK #LeroneMartin #KingInstitute #CivilRights #BlackHistory #FaithAndJustice #ConversingPodcast Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Pastoral ministry is both a sacred joy and a heavy burden. Kurt Fredrickson, Associate Dean for Professional Doctoral Programs at Fuller Seminary, discusses the struggles pastors face, how church leadership is shifting in a changing culture, and why creating life-giving congregational environments matters more than ever.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Markus Watson introduces the episode by referencing the book That Their Work Will Be a Joy and asks why it needed to exist.Kurt Fredrickson describes how the book originated from pastors resonating deeply with the challenges and joys of ministry in a seminary lunch discussion.Ministry is tough and filled with conflicts on the outside and fears within, as reflected in Paul's writings.Despite challenges, pastors find joy in being gripped by God and walking with people through both the best and hardest moments of life.Markus Watson shares his personal experience of moving through seasons of fear and joy in ministry, appreciating moments of goodness and kindness in congregational life.Ministry leaders enter sacred spaces in people's lives, highlighting the privilege of bringing gospel and good news during life's milestones and struggles.The Doctor of Ministry program provides “fire for ministry” and “oxygen for your soul,” supporting pastors with new skills and spiritual renewal.The Doctor of Global Leadership degree equips marketplace leaders and executives to integrate faith with work by tackling practical ministry challenges in their workplace.Pastors face unique challenges, including constant 24/7 expectations from both themselves and their congregations, often making it difficult to “take off the uniform.”Kurt Fredrickson shares an honest story of vulnerability with another pastor, revealing the value of mutual support and truthful conversations.Cohort-based models in Doctor of Ministry programs foster deep relationships and provide safe spaces for pastors to remove their masks and find encouragement.Ministry flows from the inside out, and leaders must be in a healthy place themselves to minister well and avoid causing harm within congregational cultures.Every congregation possesses its own culture, shaped by leaders, and has the potential to be either kind and life-giving or toxic and harmful.Being vulnerable as a pastoral leader is necessary, but requires discernment, as oversharing can sometimes lead to painful repercussions.Kurt Fredrickson emphasizes that pastors ultimately seek internal growth and love within their congregations, and asks congregants to be kind as pastors strive to embody what they teach.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Kurt Fredrickson – kurtf@fuller.eduFuller Doctor of Ministry ProgramFuller Doctor of Global Leadership ProgramBooks mentioned:That Their Work Will Be a Joy, by Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron LeeRelated episodes:103. Willingness to Adapt: The Church After Covid, with Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee109. Leadership as Learning, Part 2: Coaches and Cohorts, with Tod Bolsinger113. Flourishing Leadership, wSend me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

In our fractured and sometimes dark world, we so often focus on the leading causes of death – but what if we focused our energy on what gives life? That is the pioneering work of my guests today. Dr. Somava Saha and Rev. Dr. Gary Gunderson are leaders in public health. And while they come from very different faith traditions, together they believe that communities have within them the belonging, agency, and wisdom to thrive.  Gary Gunderson is an ordained Baptist minister and professor of Faith and Health at Wake Forest University School of Divinity. He developed the five leading causes of life: agency, coherence, connection, generativity and hope. Gary has managed major faith and healthcare collaborations where he saw these causes in action.  Dr. Somava Saha is a Baha'i, and has dedicated her career to intergenerational wellbeing. She's currently CEO of Wellbeing and Equity in the World, and her work has reached millions of lives. Through this conversation, recorded in cooperation with Interfaith America, you'll gain a deeper understanding of how to tap into the power and resourcefulness that exist in the communities you serve -- and how you can work towards being a better ancestor.  Leading Causes of Life Betterancestors.org With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Sometimes it feels like God is silent, leaving us unsure of where to turn or how to keep going. In this episode, Barb speaks with Dominique Young, author of God, Where Are You? and founder of Faith Mamas, as she shares her own journey through grief, doubt, and unanswered prayers. They discuss why healing is often a slow process, how faith and therapy can work together, and why dropping the "masks" we wear is essential for real growth.  This episode is full of honest reflection, practical guidance, and hope for anyone navigating seasons of silence, struggle, or uncertainty in their faith.   RESOURCES FROM THIS EPISODE Connect with Dominique on Instagram Connect with Dominique on Facebook God, Where Are You?: Unmasking Your Pain, Uncovering His Presence Visit Dominique's Website Download the Faith Family Worldwide App   ABOUT OUR SPECIAL GUEST Dominique Young is the founder of Faith Mamas Inc. (Faith Family Worldwide), a community of more than 6,000 Christian women and a private app serving over 1,700 believers. She helps people break free from fear through Scripture and has been featured on the Don't Mom Alone podcast and The Refreshed Moms Podcast. Dominique holds a psychology degree from Hampton University and a master's in theology from Fuller Seminary. She is also a devoted wife and a mother of four.  

What does it cost to pastor faithfully in a city shaped by both beauty and deep injustice? Corey Widmer has spent twenty years navigating race, politics, and the gospel in Richmond, Virginia. "We're living in an extraordinary moral and spiritual crisis that we will either look back and say the American church was an accomplice, or the American church was a prophet." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Widmer reflects on bridging divided communities and the spiritual practices that can sustain pastors as they serve their congregations and communities. Together they discuss pressures facing pastors in a polarized era, the prophet-priest-king calling, Richmond's racial history, pastoral burnout, John Stott's legacy, and the contemplative life. Episode Highlights "We're living in an extraordinary moral and spiritual crisis that we will either look back and say the American church was an accomplice, or the American church was a prophet." "No political party could possibly align with the ethic of the radical upside down kingdom of Jesus." "Bridges are stretched between two points and bear tremendous weight." "At the heart of the universe is not power. At the heart of the universe is communion, is love." "You know when you're really not a prophet is when after you say the hard word, you leave the room and say, I hope they still like me." About Corey Widmer Corey Widmer is senior pastor of Third Church, a Presbyterian congregation in Richmond, Virginia. Corey has served as a pastor in Richmond for over twenty years, both at Third Church and at East End Fellowship, a multi-racial neighbourhood congregation. Corey has an MDiv from Princeton Theological Seminary and a PhD in theology and missiology from the Free University of Amsterdam. He is married to Sarah, a public health nurse, and they have four daughters. Helpful Links and Resources Corey Widmer on Substack: https://coreywidmer.substack.com Third Church, Richmond: https://www.thirdrva.org Corey Widmer on X: https://x.com/coreywidmer For Richmond Immigration Statement (full text): https://www.forrichmond.org/recent-news-blog/immigration Richmond Faith Leaders on Immigration (Virginia Public Media): VPM News James Davison Hunter, Democracy and Solidarity (Yale, 2024): https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300284898/democracy-and-solidarity/ David Whyte, Crossing the Unknown Sea: https://davidwhyte.com/store/book/crossing-the-unknown-sea/ Lausanne Covenant: https://lausanne.org/about/the-lausanne-covenant John Perkins, Let Justice Roll Down: https://ccda.org/product/let-justice-roll-down/ Barna, State of Pastors: https://www.barna.com/trends/pastoral-flourishing/ Show Notes Introducing Corey Widmer—lead pastor, Third Church, Richmond Describing the moment: fraught, volatile "Every pastor in every time has a similar calling—to shepherd the people of God under the supremacy of Jesus's lordship" Christian message used in ways antithetical to Jesus "Where am I?"—the pastor's constant calibration John Stott's bridge-building model Richmond: Patrick Henry, slave markets, Confederate capital John Perkins' call to relocation and reconciliation Thirteen years co-pastoring multiracial church plant "Bridges are stretched between two points and bear tremendous weight" Transition to lead pastor of suburban congregation Emotional containment—absorbing conflict George Floyd, Confederate monuments, Richmond reckoning Stott and Lausanne Covenant: justice at center of mission "No political party could possibly align with the radical upside down kingdom of Jesus" Lent and the cruciform way vs. pursuit of power Hunter's Democracy and Solidarity: erosion of common moral center "The American church was an accomplice, or a prophet" Prophet, priest, king—framework for preaching Pastoral letters, teaching classes, Deuteronomy on immigration Richmond clergy coalition on immigrant dignity Pastoral burnout, isolation, friendship crisis David Whyte: "The antidote to exhaustion is wholeheartedness" Centering prayer and contemplative life "You're not a prophet when you leave the room and say, I hope they still like me" #PastoralMinistry #ChurchLeadership #RacialReconciliation #ChristianNationalism #PastorBurnout #CruciformLife #RichmondVA #JohnStott #LausanneCovenant Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

 We often think of sacred texts like the Bible as being rigid, set in stone. But actually they're really nuanced and complex, and crucially, they allow us to bring our own complexity. Dr. Janette H. Ok is a New Testament professor at Fuller Seminary. She empowers her students to embrace their unique perspectives and backgrounds, and use those as powerful tools in biblical reflection. In this conversation, Janette also explains how wisdom isn't something you master, but a way of living you can cultivate. And she shares a practice for how we can go beyond quick Biblical memes, and dive deep into what might transform us. Links and resources: About Janette About Saint Augustine of Hippo With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & For Host: Pam King Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook Operations Manager: Lauren Kim Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen Senior Producer: Clare Wiley Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis Produced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Few people hold a Master of Divinity from Fuller Seminary, an MBA from UCLA, and a track record of 20 years in Fortune 500 consulting alongside a global deliverance ministry. While it is hard to say which is more daunting—the boardroom or the exorcism room—we know Ken has seen thousands of people find freedom from demonic oppression. He joins the show today to share his stories.To hear this episode or any others free of ads- join the Vault and support our show. To get in touch with Ken Fish you can visit his site here- https://orbisministries.org/Thank you to our sponsors!Wild Alaskan Co- Get $35 off your first box of wild-caught, sustainable seafood—delivered right to your door. Go to: https://www.wildalaskan.com/EXFILES.MiracleMade- Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://trymiracle.com/EXFILES and use the code EXFILES to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF.”Qualia- Magnesium, multiplied. 10 forms for total support. Go to https://qualialife.com/EXFILES to get 50% off and save an extra 15% with the code EXFILES.Runewood Rosaries- Get 15% off your order when you use our promo code EXFILES at Runewoodrosaryco.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We might be living through the most consequential technological moment in human history. In this episode, Greg Cootsona—theologian, pastor, and executive director of AI and Faith—joins Mark Labberton reflect on a lifetime's convergence of work in faith, science, and ethics now fully engaged at the frontier of artificial intelligence. "AI is not simply a technical project. It is an expression of human hopes and fears, our longings for power, our craving for convenience, and our hunger for transcendence and meaning. In that sense, every AI model carries an implicit anthropology and an embedded moral vision." Together they discuss why religious wisdom belongs in the room where AI is shaped, the ethical stakes of human dignity and representation in AI systems, and the strategic power of interfaith collaboration with leading tech companies. Together they also explore how individual users can exercise genuine agency over AI, the risks of AI-mediated relationships, and what it would mean to make AI truly for us—in the deepest theological sense of that phrase. Episode Highlights "You among mortals are chosen to solve every problem effectively and efficiently."—on Silicon Valley's unspoken gospel "The gospel is not fragile and it grows best in situations that are not ideal and conditions that are not ideal." "AI is not simply a technical project. It is an expression of human hopes and fears, our longings for power, our craving for convenience, and our hunger for transcendence and meaning. In that sense, every AI model carries an implicit anthropology and an embedded moral vision. Whether or not its designers name it." "A third of teenagers say they prefer to have a relationship with a chatbot." "I think hope is taking steps today for a vision of tomorrow that you want to see occur. And that is what makes positive change in us as human beings and positive change in the world around us." About Greg Cootsona Greg Cootsona (PhD, Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley) is the executive director of AI and Faith, a global interfaith organization bringing religious wisdom to the ethical challenges of artificial intelligence. He is a lecturer in comparative religion and humanities at California State University, Chico, and an ordained Presbyterian Church (USA) minister. Cootsona co-founded Science for the Church, directed multiple Templeton Foundation–funded projects connecting science and religious communities, and is a recognized specialist in C.S. Lewis, theology, and science. He has authored nine books, including Science and Religions in America: A New Look (Routledge, 2023) and Mere Science and Christian Faith (InterVarsity Press, 2018). He has appeared on The Today Show, CNN, NPR, BBC, and in the New York Times and Wall Street Journal. Helpful Links and Resources AI and Faith https://aiandfaith.org Greg Cootsona's website: https://www.gregcootsona.com Forthcoming book, An AI Made for Us: https://www.gregcootsona.com Science for the Church https://scienceforthechurch.org Mere Science and Christian Faith: https://www.ivpress.com/mere-science-and-christian-faith Science and Religions in America: A New Look https://www.routledge.com/Science-and-Religions-in-America-A-New-Look/Cootsona/p/book/9781032102122 AI and Faith on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/aiandfaith AI and Faith on X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/AIandFaith Show Notes Greg Cootsona's background: grew up in Menlo Park, California—Silicon Valley before it had that name His engineer father modeled a problem-solving worldview; transcendence not required "You among mortals are chosen to solve every problem effectively and efficiently."—the unspoken gospel of Silicon Valley Grew up in a non-religious, even "anti-religious" household Became a Christian his first year at UC Berkeley—a conversion he describes with a laugh as the obvious outlier C.S. Lewis's writings on meaning and love: too reasonable, too wise to dismiss Earl Palmer at First Presbyterian Berkeley: preaching that gave confidence amid secular challenge "The gospel is not fragile and it grows best in situations that are not ideal." Princeton Seminary for biblical studies; study years in Tübingen and Heidelberg PhD dissertation at GTU: Karl Barth (theology from above) in dialogue with Alfred North Whitehead (science from below) Advisors Robert John Russell (PhD in quantum physics) and Ted Peters at the Graduate Theological Union Pastoral ministry at Fifth Avenue Presbyterian, New York City, then Bidwell Presbyterian, Chico Began working with Templeton Foundation through early exposure to science-faith dialogue during the Human Genome Initiative years Two $2 million Templeton projects: Scientists in Congregations and Science and Theology for Emerging Adult Ministries (STEAM) Bidwell Presbyterian received what may have been the first Templeton Foundation grant ever given directly to a local church AI and Faith founded by Thomas Osborne and David Brenner in Seattle—building near Amazon and Microsoft, they saw the need early Cootsona became the organization's first executive director on October 1, 2025 The network: 220 experts in 20 countries, partnering with 34 organizations "AI is not simply a technical project. It is an expression of human hopes and fears, our longings for power, our craving for convenience, and our hunger for transcendence and meaning." Interfaith strategy: shared ethical ground across traditions is broader than divisions—and tech companies respond better to a multi-religious voice Currently invited to provide Anthropic feedback on the Claude Constitution—because of AI and Faith's interfaith structure Human dignity at stake: between 2 and 2.5 billion people not on the internet are absent from AI training data Only 0.06 percent of AI models are trained on Arabic-language sources—600 million speakers AI data centres consume potable water and enormous energy to cool GPU processors Senior tech leaders at a major company admitted to Labberton: "None of us has any training in ethics"—a real and witnessed crisis "A third of teenagers say they prefer to have a relationship with a chatbot." Three publics: AI industry experts, religious congregations, and the broader public—AI and Faith works across all three Forthcoming book: An AI Made for Us—riffing on Jesus's Sabbath words: the Sabbath was made for humanity, not humanity for the Sabbath Users have more agency than they think: we can set limits, log off, choose not to be defined by our AI engagement Harvard Human Flourishing Project: in-person worship is the highest correlate with religious flourishing—embodied community cannot be replaced Community—not the individual—is the right unit of moral accountability for navigating AI "I think hope is taking steps today for a vision of tomorrow that you want to see occur." AI's genuine promise: accelerating medicine for rare diseases; recalibrating cosmological understanding; reducing human suffering at scale Five to one: more people fear AI than welcome it—AI and Faith works to change that ratio with grounded, religious wisdom #AIandFaith #ArtificialIntelligence #FaithAndTechnology #AIEthics #HumanFlourishing #ScienceAndFaith #ChristianFaith #TechAndReligion #AIandHumanity #GregCootsona Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we continued our weekly theme, “End Times Week and AI,” with Dr. Michael Rydelnik, and Dr. Todd Korpi. Dr. Michael Rydelnik joined us to discuss the end times, the growing rise of antisemitism, and how believers should think biblically about Israel. Dr. Rydelnik is Professor Emeritus of Jewish Studies and Bible at Moody Bible Institute and also serves as an adjunct professor in the undergraduate program. He is the host and Bible teacher of Open Line, airing every Saturday from 9:00–11:00 a.m. CT on Moody Radio and more than 225 other stations. Dr. Todd Korpi then joined us to talk about how AI can become a distraction in the church and shift the focus away from Christ. Dr. Korpi is Missiologist in Residence at OneHope and Director of the Digital Mission Consortia at the Wheaton College Billy Graham Center. He also serves as Assistant Professor of Christian Leadership at Fuller Seminary and Dean of Digital Ministry programs at Ascent College. He is also the author of “AI Goes to Church.” You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps: Dr. Michael Rydelnik [ 29:08 ] Dr. Todd Korpi [ 44:54]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Pádraig Ó Tuama is an Irish poet, theologian and host of the On Being podcast, Poetry Unbound. Belonging, identity and reconciliation are at the heart of his work. Growing up bilingual, speaking both English and Irish, showed Pádraig that there are multiple ways to say things, and multiple ways to look at things.  As a young gay man, Pádraig was subjected to abusive conversion practices, and it was his yearning for a better language to understand God and himself that led him to poetry and conflict mediation.  Pádraig shows us both the brutality and the beauty of language, how words can destroy or nourish, and choosing which words to use is a power worth cultivating.  You'll learn how to balance fear and courage, and why you should approach conflicts in your life by admitting what you don't know. Padraig also shares a journaling practice to draw out your own poetic voice.  Links and resources About Pádraig  Poetry Unbound Pádraig's memoir In the Shelter: Finding a Home in the World Pádraig also read The Exorcist and Oh What A Marvel it Appeared to Me from his 2023 collection Feed the Beast His latest collection is Kitchen Hymns With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health. Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking. About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media & Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenSenior Producer: Clare WileyExecutive Producer: Jakob LewisProduced by Great Feeling Studios Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary's School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Riad Kassis joins Mark Labberton from Beirut as airstrikes continue, 700,000 people have been displaced across Lebanon, and children's toys are visible in the rubble. He leads Langham Partnership and has spent decades serving the church across one of the world's most contested regions. He names the spiritual danger of sanctifying power with religious narrative while insisting peace cannot be forced by violence. "Peace does not come by power. It comes by genuine love and concern. It comes when you invest in the education of new generations." In this episode, Kassis reflects on war, displacement, pastoral witness, and hope in God's sovereignty from the middle of Lebanon's crisis. Together they discuss the civilian toll of the war, how religious fundamentalism operates across traditions, the Psalms and Habakkuk as tools for lament, and what American Christians can actually do. Together they ask what it means for the church to hold protest and hope together when cycles of war feel endless and religiously justified. Episode Highlights "It is not an operation. It is a war on Lebanon." "When power—whether political, military, financial, or technological—is sanctified by religious narratives that justify everything, that is what really bothers me." "No one cures and destroys with more passion than someone who believes that God is on their side." "When I think that these 85 children were killed mainly by American ammunition and weapons, I cannot comprehend this—even as a Christian and as a theologian." "Peace does not come by power. It comes by genuine love and concern. It comes when you invest in the education of new generations." About Riad Kassis Riad Kassis is a Langham Scholar from Lebanon and is deeply committed to global theological education. He has served as International Director of the International Council for Evangelical Theological Education (ICETE), Regional Director for Overseas Council, as well as visiting professor of Old Testament at The Arab Baptist Theological Seminary and Near East School of Theology in Beirut, and the Dean of the Program for Theological Education by Extension in Syria and Lebanon. Riad obtained his Bachelor of Arts in Economics in Damascus, Syria. He went on to obtain his Master of Divinity from Alliance Biblical Seminary, Manila, Philippines and Master of Theology from Regent College, Canada. Riad received his Doctor of Philosophy in Old Testament as a Langham scholar from The University of Nottingham, UK and his Master of Nonprofit Management from Regis University in Denver, Colorado. Helpful Links and Resources Riad Kassis, Frustrated with God: A Syrian Theologian's Reflections on Habakkuk https://www.amazon.com/Frustrated-God-Theologians-Reflections-Habakkuk/dp/1533513171 Langham Partnership https://us.langham.org/  Show Notes Kassis speaking live from Beirut as war unfolds around him Home in Bika Valley, Mount Hermon visible each morning—Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine converging "It is not an operation. It is a war on Lebanon." 150 airstrikes in 24 hours; 550+ killed, 1,500+ injured, including 85 children 700,000 displaced; 200,000 children; many still on the streets of Beirut Schoolbooks and children's toys found in the rubble Christian village of Alma ordered to evacuate; mayor on television in tears A Catholic priest who stayed to help an injured family was killed in a second strike His wife Izdihar's center for Syrian refugee women and girls shut down; staff now distributing meals, mattresses, medical care in shelters Hoped the war could be avoided—feared it could not "When power—political, military, technological—is sanctified by religious narratives that justify everything, that is what really bothers me." Iranian author Shiha Dejani, herself a survivor of the Iranian regime: if your vision of liberation comes through destroying innocent lives, it is not freedom you are after Grew up admiring America as a beacon of democracy and discovery; that view has changed "When I think these 85 children were killed mainly by American ammunition, I cannot comprehend this—even as a Christian and as a theologian." "No one cures and destroys with more passion than someone who believes that God is on their side." Walter Wink: the dominant religion on the planet is not Christianity, Islam, or Judaism—it is the pervasive faith in violence Preaching Habakkuk two days before this conversation; the cry "how long, O Lord?" as pastoral anchor Psalms of disorientation as communal tools for protest, lament, and stubborn hope Lent and Ramadan overlapping: identifying suffering with Christ's suffering; "after Friday, we will experience an amazing Sunday" 2,000 years of Arab Christian presence in this region—not just survival, but witness and contribution "Peace does not come by power. It comes by genuine love and concern. It comes when you invest in the education of new generations." Asks for prayer for the war's end, for political wisdom, for his canceled flight—he is trying to reach his first grandson's dedication Labberton closes in prayer: for restraint of ego-driven leaders, for human dignity, for a peace that is both merciful and just #ConversingWithMarkLabberton #RiadKassis #Lebanon #MiddleEast #Peacebuilding #ChristianWitness #Theology #Habakkuk #LanghamPartnership #WarAndFaith Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.