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Episode SummaryEric Eisele is an entrepreneur, environmentalist and CEO of Growflux, a horticultural tech company offering automation and cloud technologies aimed at resource efficiency and yield expansion for indoor farms, and greenhouses. Today, Harry speaks to Eric about Eric's Philly roots and his rich experience in design and architecture, wireless engineering and renewable energy. Eric expounds on circadian lighting, providing controls for lighting and his passion for fostering resource efficiency and environmental stewardship in agriculture. Thanks to Our SponsorsCultivatd – https://cultivatd.com/ (https://cultivatd.com/) Netled - https://netled.fi/ (https://netled.fi/) Key Takeaways07:13 – Harry welcomes to the show, Eric Eisele, who talks about his Philly roots, building lasers and computers at a young age, and the mentors who have been inspirations to Eric 13:07 – An intense interest in photonics 15:46 – Working with KieranTimberlake 19:47 – From high-performing architecture to vertical farming 23:44 – Circadian lighting, horticulture and GLASE Consortium 27:20 – Mesh lighting and the hospitality industry 35:13 – Providing controls for lighting as opposed to manufacturing lighting 38:37 – How Eric has grown and evolved as a leader and CEO 41:09 – Future trends and innovations Eric expects in the controls and lighting segment of vertical farming 43:51 – A tough question Eric has had to ask himself recently 45:09 – The importance of maintaining and fostering relationships 49:36 – A specific ask Eric has for the audience 51:50 – Harry thanks Eric for joining the show and lets listeners know where they can connect with him and learn more about Growflux Tweetable Quotes“One of the most fascinating things to me about that trajectory - moving from architecture of high-performing buildings to this space - is I've been able to see how this industry is maturing and borrowing practices and concepts from the commercial building space.” (20:35) (Eric) “At GrowFlux, we haven't been doing a lot of sensor work commercially lately. Internally we use a lot of sensors. We do a lot of sensing with our own technology. We've seen how a building envelope can drive thermogradients within a cultivation space; we're very familiar with that. And it's something that there's really not enough people that are looking at it and accounting for it in the design process.” (23:12) (Eric) “We've always known that light is a very significant driver for our own biological clocks. But in 2008, researchers discovered some cells inside the eye that are called Intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells (ipRGCs). What these cells do is they don't create images, they detect light. And they detect specific wavelengths of light that are centered on blue. And what that does is it triggers a hormonal response that regulates the release of serotonin and melatonin that ultimately determine our biological clock throughout the day.” (25:22) (Eric) “What we're doing is we're supporting a lot of these initiatives by providing very robust API- addressable controls down to every light.” (34:49) (Eric) “For me, who I look to for inspiration is really other founders because it is a really unique circumstance when your passion project for many years is your livelihood and is your entire existence really.” (40:10) (Eric) “Ultimately, this industry has so much growth ahead of it. And, I really feel, in the coming years and decades, that we are going to have to hyperscale and we have to learn from other industries.” (50:40) (Eric) Resources MentionedEric's Linkedin – https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericeisele (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericeisele) Growflux – https://growflux.com/ (https://growflux.com/) Growflux LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/growflux/ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/growflux/) KieranTimberlake – https://kierantimberlake.com/ (https://kierantimberlake.com/) Sponsor Info Cultivatd's Website –...

HIGHLIGHTSHow to find a good digital marketerThe 80/20 Rule: don't stretch yourself too thinDo outbound prospecting first Get your marketing message rightInbound vs Outbound Marketing Inform and educate, not sell Set the correct KPIKnow your market and figure out the appropriate platform The cost of traditional marketing vs digital marketing Business owners need to set their honest goalsQUOTESEric: "Customer acquisition and getting clients and scaling a business are the probably one of the most difficult things there is because it's the lifeblood of your business. And if everyone could do it, then everybody would be millionaires."Eric: For me, I would just lay out all of the different things that business owners are trying to figure out what to spend their time on and then make a chart of okay, this has the potential of this much ROI. Eric: It depends on where the business is at on their revenue level. But if they are at a lower revenue level, they could spend a lot of time trying to get organic people trying to view organic content and things like that. But manual outbound and just outbound prospecting is probably the highest ROI thing you can do as long as their marketing message and position of their offer is good.”Eric: "A lot of people in manual outbound are just hitting with a straight pitch right off the bat. And that doesn't end up well because nobody wants to be sold to. They want to have that inbound feel where they are coming to you because they have a problem that needs to be solved."Eric: "I think inbound is becoming more important because of how consumers in general, their mindsets are shifting to, okay if I want something I'll google it. If I want food, I uber it." Eric: "Because they are able to have access to whatever they want in this Information Age, they want the same thing with your business. They want to see an ad from you, go to your website, possibly convert into a lead because your offer is really good, then when they actually get into the phone with you, you're educating them, just guiding them. You're not selling them, you're just asking questions, making closing statements, hailing objections. Then eventually it just leads into the sale." Eric: "70% of the buying decision for a lot of markets is made by the person before they even talk to you. Because they did the research on your website, they did the research on your ads, they looked at your reviews, they did the research on Google and all these things, maybe asked a couple of friends and did all that before they even called you."  Eric: "Business owners should be as clear and consistent with whatever their goals are as possible and really sit down and be honest with themselves on what they really want. Because that whey say their goals are can actually be less or more than what they actually say."To learn about Eric, check out the links below: Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericrebelo/Website: https://www.ericrebelo.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ericrebelo/If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, review and share with a friend who would benefit from the message. If you're interested in picking up a copy of Jonathan Goldhill's book, Disruptive Successor, go to the website at www.DisruptiveSuccessor.com.

You may not be very happy with your workplace pension fund. In this week's episode, we think through some of the things you can do to remedy that situation. Pension funds, like all other retirement products, have to be Regulation 28-compliant. That means you don't have much control over what's inside. However, you can control your contributions and the fee you're willing to pay. You can also insert yourself into how your workplace pension is managed by becoming a pension fund trustee.  You can find Gerrie's article on maintenance we mention at the top of the show here. Subscribe to our RSS feed here. Subscribe or rate us in iTunes. Kyle  I've been curious about forced pension fund contributions in the workplace. Is there any way we can direct portions and where this gets invested?  When stocks are discounted, would I not be able to take a more aggressive approach and direct this more towards equities? Alexander Forbes deals with my pension fund. Win of the week: Steve  Been meaning to request the move my RA from Liberty somewhere else for a while now, so I requested a quote. They quoted me on moving to their new Agile platform after I specifically asked for a section 14 transfer quote. Anyways, these are the fees quoted for their new platform.   Best part: it's 2.8% all the way to maturity. Pretty sure it doesn't matter what the penalty will be, I will move it. Jason  You said it is "illegal to record someone without telling them". This is sort of true but in the context described it's not. This is actually covered in the RICA act. It is illegal to record someone without prior consent. However, the Act sets out the following exceptions to the rule: you are a party to the conversation you have the prior written consent of at least one of the parties to the conversation; or the conversation relates to, or occurs in the course of, the carrying on of your business Since you are an active participant in the phone call that means you are "party to the conversation" and not eavesdropping and thus can record regardless. It is still considered polite to tell people they are being recorded, but even if they say decline it's not illegal. If you think the person is going to lie then maybe you shouldn't ask. I'm not a lawyer but this advice was given to me by one of my company's lawyers after I recorded a conversation we had with a client who was blatantly lying to us over the phone and I needed proof. Dhiraj  One can hold cash in an interest bearing bank account or invest in a money market with a fund manager at a small fee. Is it safer to hold cash with a fund manager even if one has to pay the small fee? Specifically is one more likely to retrieve the money from an asset manager than a bank if both were declared insolvent? Eugene wants to know why one would choose a preservation fund instead of an RA. Meryl  How can you find the interest rates of the bond ETF? Obviously this depends on the price but where do you access the return? On my Standard Bank investment account I have quite a few Sygnia ETFs. In my statements it shows a deduction for ETF fee whenever there is a dividend or interest payment. Have you any idea what this is? Eric For a relatively new retail investor like myself the information on your site is priceless, thanks again.   I just listened to your podcast on Covid bonds and the 11.5% interest sounds very appealing, my concern is SA Inc. In your opinion what is the chances of a default…thinking Greece and Argentina where a haircut was imposed on sovereign bonds. Nolomo Besides buying shares, what other assets can one accumulate with a budget of less than R2000p/m.  My dream is owning a house where I can live and raise my family. Is it possible to afford a bond with a salary of R10000p/m with monthly expenses of R4500 over a 20year period? I have a R30,000 lump sump Is a bond the only way to own a physical house with a salary of R10000p/m and R4500p/m expenses? Nadine I was just listening to an episode when I heard you say you paid $16 for a kindle book! Kindle automatically makes the US store your default store but you can change that to the U.K. store (www.amazon.co.uk). I did this myself and I usually only pay £3-5 for a book on kindle now. The U.K. store is just SO MUCH CHEAPER!  Google how to do it - I can't remember the exact steps, it's somewhere in settings on the kindle. You need to open a U.K. account and connect your card etc. but it's worth it.  Ndida wants to know if there are any benefits to using offshore investment platforms over local platforms offering offshore exposure. John I hear SASOL may be forced in doing a Rights Issue in the future.. I have SASOL shares that I picked up at the lows in march and now am thinking of offloading them before the Right Issue occurs. 

There is an evolutionary process for every business, and Beardbrand is no different. When Eric Bandholz co-founded Beardbrand back in 2012, all he had was a Tumblr blog with a modest amount of followers and an Ecommerce shop selling other people’s beard products. Today, Beardbrand is a seven-figure business with multiple high selling products of its own and an entire catalog of content that customers gobble up with each new release. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Eric tells us how he fortified his brand, and how success in the digital world is all about going beyond offering just a product in a box — it’s about delivering value and the best possible experience to your customers Key Takeaways: Move away from the strict focus on simply selling as much as you can and instead aim to find the ways you can add value to your customers’ lives. That will lead to more loyalty and, in turn, more lifetime sales When you're cash-strapped, you must think of creative ways to grow the business without capital. One way to do that is word-of-mouth — you can't incentivize word-of-mouth. You have to just focus on creating an amazing experience that your customers want to talk about Site speed is more important than other features. Achieving that  means cutting out pop-up ads and other third-party plugins, which data shows often do not provide consistent or meaningful ROI For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles. Today, we have Eric Bandholz on the show, founder of Beardbrand. Eric, welcome. Eric: What is going on, Stephanie? Stephanie: Hey, hey. Thanks for hopping on here. Eric: Yeah. I'm excited for our conversation. It's going to be a lot of fun. Stephanie: Me, too. You are a true brand. You're rocking an awesome beard. Just what I expected when I was hoping to see you on video. I'm like, "He better have an epic beard, or this conversation won't go well." Eric: Well, it was funny because, actually, I shaved it all off in December, the beginning of December, of last year. That was kind of a big deal for us. That was the first time I shaved my beard completely off. Stephanie: Oh, man. Eric: She's like, "[crosstalk 00:00:44] your beard," or something like that. Stephanie: How many customers did you lose when you did that? Eric: Well, I'd like to think that we actually added a lot of customers, because Beardbrand is not about the beard. It's about the man behind the beard. We kind of support a guy's right to grow his beard as much as his right to shave it off. I really wanted to make that point, especially today, with a lot of our competitors challenging people's masculinity by not having facial hair. We want to kind of say facial hair doesn't matter at all. It's just a style. Stephanie: Cool. Eric: We did some YouTube ads on it as well, which was a lot of fun to do. Stephanie: Awesome. I'd love to dive into the background of how you started Beard Brand and the story behind that. Eric: We're in business, I think it's got to be, eight years now we launched. Stephanie: Wow, congrats. Eric: We launched in 2012 after I had grown a beard out for about a year. What happened is, at that time, I was trying to do this graphic design business or design business, and I would go to networking events and everyone would call me Duck Dynasty or ZZ Top or Grizzly Adams. Those are super cool dudes. They've got epic stories as well. As an individual, I don't identify as those kind of guys. I've got the softest hands you could ever imagine. I never touched an axe. I ended up attending this event where I met other dudes like me who are other entrepreneurs and designers and doctors and lawyers and dads. I realized there's this whole community of guys that do not fit the traditional stereotype of a bearded guy. That was the inspiration to kind of call myself an urban beardsman. Stephanie: I like it. Eric: Beardbrand was going to be the community to unite urban beardsmen and give them the tools they needed to feel confident about rocking a beard. To us, the tools don't mean just the grooming products. They mean, videos. They mean blog posts. They mean style inspiration. They mean community. Over the past eight years, we've been rolling all that out. We've gotten an epic blog and a YouTube channel with over a million and a half subscribers. We've got a private community where we connect with people. We've put on conferences for our customers to be able to connect in person. We've really worked hard to support our audiences, support our customers. I've got two business partners. We're completely bootstrapped. We have no debt. We have no outside funding. We've been able to grow to a nice size seven-figure business. Stephanie: That's amazing. Congrats on all those YouTube followers. How do you think about utilizing your content to sell your products? Was that an idea and a strategy from the beginning, or was it more organic, where you started on YouTube, and then you're like, "Well, now, we have all these followers, we should launch a product as well?" Eric: Yeah, if we'll hop in our time machine a little bit more. We launched 2012 as a blog, a Tumblr page, which I don't think anyone's ever heard the word, "Tumblr," five years [crosstalk 00:03:53]. Stephanie: Long time. Eric: We had a Tumblr page. Then, we also had our YouTube channel. This time, it was just me, as kind of a side project. I'll make a couple of posts on the blog. Then, I would just re-blog some things on Tumblr to make it look active. I think I did six videos on YouTube. It's not like, in that first year, we really built this thriving community. I think we had 300 subscribers on YouTube and just a couple of thousand visitors to our blog. It was enough that a reporter from the New York Times saw the blog and kind of quoted me as an expert. Stephanie: That's awesome. Eric: We utilized that opportunity. I convinced two of my friends to go into business with me, and said, "Hey, why don't we turn this blog into an e-commerce store?" We found a product. We started reselling it. We literally launched the website a day before the New York Times article went live- Stephanie: Wow, perfect timing. Eric: [crosstalk] a couple of days. That was kind of the spark to the business to really give us the energy to continue. Then, I had the vision that Beardbrand, the Urban Beardsman, is going to be like how Lululemon is to people for yoga or Vans shoes is to skaters. Beardbrand and the Urban Beardsman was we're going to serve these urban beardsmen. I always visualize that as apparel or accessories or clothes. I really didn't have the industry knowledge to be able to do that, and the margins are so tight on there, and some seasonality that we found grooming products was going to be that product that united the community. Eric: After, I guess, a year or two of failure after failure after failure of trying to get apparel up and accessories up, we finally admitted that we're a grooming company. For us, the content that we've created was more of not to drive sales. The products we have allow us to share our word more. We sell products as a way to kind of expand our voice and to grow our content, not as a way to create content to sell products. I think we're one of the companies that kind of view it a little bit differently. Stephanie: Got it. How do you utilize newsletters and reaching your subscribers once you have them or engaging with buyers or prospective buyers? I think I've read about some newsletter strategy that you have from day one, everyone kind of starts out in the same place to go on the journey with you. Is that still accurate? Eric: Yeah. We utilize Klaviyo to, I think they call it flows, where you have these series of emails that you send out when people join your email list. We've launched that, I think, in 2015. That's been really good. When you think about building a business, as much as you can automate and build systems and processes, then the more you're going to be able to scale your business and the more traction you're going to be able to gain. Eric: This series that we opened up with is really like an education series. I think it's a 5 or 10-part series where we teach them how to care for their beards, teach them how to care for their hair. A lot of guys still don't know how to shampoo and condition your hair. Basics like that where, honestly, they've been doing it wrong, but there's opportunity for them to improve their techniques and, ultimately, get better outcome through their journey. That's been big for us. Then, at the end of the flow, we give them a little thank you product, or free shipping, or something like that for taking the time to invest in themselves. Stephanie: Got it? Are there any best practices you would recommend other e-commerce sites when it comes to utilizing that newsletter or where you're like, "Conversions were high when we did this," or, "They were lower when we did this," or, "That thank you product really does help drive future sales," any insights around that? Eric: Yeah. A couple of things that we've found that work over the years is we have a product that is not available on our navigation. It's kind of a hidden kit that is only available to people who join our newsletter. Stephanie: Interesting. Eric: The retail value of that kit is $50. We give them a pretty aggressive price point to be able to get on board. It's kind of like a tester kit, sample kit, so they get exposure to a lot of our products. We found that that works really well because we can say, "Hey, get this tester kit, try all of our products, use these products as you're learning about the things that we're telling you, then, in two weeks or a month or whenever, when you go through the products and look to re-up them." We found that that works really well at getting people into the ecosystem and trying our products. Stephanie: Very cool. Eric: What other best practices do I have? For us, it's so much about content. I think a lot of people really err towards sales and discounts and buy from us and chest thumping. That's really not our style. I would challenge people out there to think about how you can bring value to your audience's lives. Then, if you bring enough value to their lives, then, kind of the whole Buddhism karma thing, it will come back to you. People will end up buying from you. We kind of have that outlook on the world, that if you do good things, good things will come back to you. Stephanie: Love that. How do you think about your buyer experience and making that personalized and unique to all your customers as they come in? Eric: We've invested a fair amount into our packaging to our products. The unboxing experience is nice. We use nicer primary packaging, which is going to be your bottles and your labels and your caps and all that. Then, we use nicer secondary packaging as well. When they actually get the boxes and they open it, it's pretty nice. In addition to that, we're working with our own 3PL or a third-party logistics, our own fulfillment center. We make sure that we work really closely with them that they wrap it kind of to our specifications. There's a nice little unboxing experience, a little bit of tissue paper, and a Beardbrand sticker. Then, we have what's called a thank you kit. Within this thank you kit, we have a little booklet. The booklet usually changes every quarter. For instance, one quarter, it was a book of reminders, which are kind of my nine reminders that I tell myself in life as I face adversity. Stephanie: That's great. Eric: Daily planning. It's all tied around our core message or our tagline, which is keep on growing. We're trying to, again, bring more value. You buy from us and, not only did you get great products, but we brought you a little more value outside of what the products can do. Hopefully, by delivering this experience, we can grow through word-of-mouth and loyalty and customers who want to stick around, rather than kind of going on to the next hot thing. Stephanie: I was just going to say I could see that adding to that viral experience by giving people those little presents that are really fun to share, then, just engaging with more customers because of that. It's really interesting to hear about. Eric: I'll tell you this. If you're trying to build a bootstrap company, the reality is you've got more time than money. When you're cash-strapped, you've got to think of creative ways to be able to grow the business without capital. One way to do that is word-of-mouth. You can't incentivize word-of-mouth. You have to really just truly focus on such an amazing experience that your customers want to talk about it. When you have that mentality, not only is it healthy for your business, but it's going to be healthy for your growth. It's just kind of a win-win, and the world's a better place because you're bringing that much value to the customers. Stephanie: I completely agree. Are there any success stories or big failures that you've had come from trying to generate that word-of-mouth and getting people to spread the word? Any advice around that? Eric: It's actually not a metric that we really track or keep an eye on. It's just more of a philosophy internally of just being customer first. I think, to a certain degree, you do have to integrate data. We used to include a little sample of products for people. We found that those samples weren't driving any additional sales of those products in a significant way. When you look at that, you're like, "Well, are you actually bringing value to customers if you're giving them something for free that, maybe, they didn't want or they didn't want need? Stephanie: How do you track that, or how did you know that people weren't really using it or that wasn't helping drive sales? Eric: We would send a beard wash, a little sample, a one-ounce container. Then, we would look at if there's any increase in sales of beard wash. Your data is always going to be muddy, especially when you're a company that's our size and really small. We fundamentally can't get the data. You do have to go off of a certain gap. You have to also look at, "Well, every sample is costing us," let's say, it's $1. Every order is going out, five orders is $5,000 a month. Then, if we're not seeing a boost of really $10,000 in sales to justify the cost of that, then the margin and the future order, then, you're not building a sustainable practice. Again, as a bootstrap company, you do have to think about your marketing efforts being sustainable and being able to exist on their own for a long time. Stephanie: How do you think about creating these marketing campaigns, whether it's YouTube videos? How much do you guys put out per day or per week? To me, that feels like it could be not sustainable if you don't have the right team in place, the right video crew. Especially right now, I'm thinking everything with COVID-19. Has it been hard to keep that content going out and recording the videos and launching them on YouTube and everything? Is it still pretty good, because it's a remote team doing that? Eric: It's been a really long, hard journey. To the listeners out there who are hearing our story now, eight years in is like we've had eight years to build these processes and systems and relationships. You're not going to be able to do all the things that we've done on day one. We're still cranking out about six videos a week. We've been able to do that by leveraging multiple personalities, just like you guys have multiple shows. We're kind of the same thing. It's not all on my shoulders, and worrying about me getting burnt out. Eric: We have four different regulars on our smaller channel called the Beardbrand Alliance. Then, we have, probably, maybe 4 to 10 barbers who will hit on to do these kind of barbershops style videos. We've been able to really spread the burden of the YouTube channel. Then, we have an in-house video editor who is constantly video editing. He's a machine. Then, in addition to creating these YouTube videos, we do a fair amount of advertising in the video form as well. We do have video editing handled by our ad person as well, our advertising coordinator. She'll be cranking out content that way as well. Video is great, man. I would highly suggest anyone listening that if you invest in video, you could have a pretty good competitive advantage in the marketplace. Stephanie: I completely agree. Video is where it's at. How do you make sure that your videos and your content is found? A lot of people create some really awesome stuff and then be like, "Now what? I've only had one view on it," or, "I don't know how to get people to view this video, and then take the action that I want afterwards, which is, probably, buying one of the products that I'm highlighting?" Eric: There's two answers to that. One answer is you pay for it. Really expensive, but if the content is truly remarkable, for instance, when I shaved my beard off, we filmed it. We created a 45-second ad on YouTube. To get exposure on YouTube through their advertising system, if the video is engaging, it's extremely cheap. I think we're paying a third of a penny per view. Stephanie: Yeah, that's cheap. Eric: A million impressions was, I don't have the calculator in front of me, what does that look like? Stephanie: Something great. Eric: Yeah. It's astronomically inexpensive. At the same time, you may not be targeting the right people. Now, organically, I think YouTube is going to be the platform to go, because of how they recommend videos. It's a little more evergreen than Facebook. There's certainly opportunity on Facebook and Instagram, but I'm not as strong on how to perform there. It comes down to, in the early days, the reality is no one's going to watch your content. You think that sucks, but the reality is it's awesome. Maybe, you'll have one person or two people or 10 people watch it. Then, you'll get a couple of comments. Well, you'll use those comments to get your content better and better and better. Then, by the time you've built a larger audience, you've kind of figured a lot of these things out, so you're not really damaging your audience. You think what you create is great, but the reality is it's not. Stephanie: I agree. Eric: [crosstalk] will be shared. By creating and by doing, you get the hang of it, you get more natural in front of the camera, or you get more natural on the editing process and telling the story. As you learn, it compounds on itself. If you're thinking about getting into organic video on YouTube, then plan on having, really, 20 or 50 videos that you want to produce before you really even see any kind of traction. I think it took us three years before we got 10,000 subscribers. Then, again, it compounds and you learn and create more content. You create more content faster that's more in line with what people want. Then, all of a sudden, we're able to grow to daily content and getting 10,000 subscribers a month. It takes time and it takes learning. There's a lot of insights in YouTube that you'll need to learn as well. Stephanie: I think it's really good as a reminder to kind of detach yourself from the content, because when you put something out there, it's like, "It's my baby. That was my best one yet." I remember when we were starting our company, the first couple of episodes we did on Mission Daily, Chad and myself, it didn't get any downloads. It's a brand new podcast. No one had heard about it. We didn't know how to grow the podcast at that point. I remember thinking, "That was my best episode yet. I'll never be able to do something that good again." Now, I look back on it. I'm like, "I'm very glad no one was listening to those episodes because they were not good and the audio wasn't great." It's just a really good reminder to put stuff out there more in the learning phase. Then, eventually, you can move into the really trying to find those subscribers and followers, once you get to the point where you're a bit more experienced and you've tried a bunch of things out. I love that. Eric: Yeah. So much of it is just the process, for a podcast, making sure you can line up those guests and you can post it early. That's hard work. It's easy to get the first one done, or maybe, the first couple and queue it up, but to also record and organize and plan is a very big challenge. Those are the things that you'll be solving when your audience is small. Then, as you solve those, that allows you to grow your audience. Stephanie: I agree. When it comes to solving problems when you're small, when you got the visibility from, I think, you said New York Times, and I think I read Shark Tank, when you got that visibility, were you ready? Was your website ready, your product ready, your fulfillment strategy ready? How did that go when you got those bumps in visitors? Eric: New York Times drove about $900 of sales. Stephanie: That's huge, just kidding. Eric: It actually is. I think we had $100 worth of product. It was nine times our inventory. Fortunately, we were able to solve all that. You have a lot of growing pains, I think. This is my first successful business. I had no relationships. We didn't know where to get our wooden boxes made. We always dealt with supply chain issues. Really, the first two years, as we were growing rapidly, it was just always like a fire was being put out. Then, eventually, we moved to quarterly planning, which has helped significantly in managing our inventory. Stephanie: What was the Shark Tank experience like? I haven't talked to anyone who's been on there yet. Eric: Oh, no. I'm your first breaking your show. Stephanie: Yeah, you're my first. Eric: That's virginity. This was 2014, I believe. Yeah, it's got to be 2014. Halloween 2014 is when the episode aired. A lot of things may have changed since that time. I know Shark Tank was really popular at that time. A lot of people were watching it. It's a very stressful process, because during the whole campaign, not only 80% of the people who go through the whole process are going to end up on the show. You could end up investing a lot of energy, a lot of time. You could pay a lot of money to build out this fancy display case. You could fly out there, step away from the operational needs of your business in a time where your business really needs this stuff. Then, do all that and not make it there. Eric: We always knew there is a good chance that we didn't make it there. Subsequently, we didn't put too many resources into Shark Tank. We kept our display stand, I think, we paid $300 to rent some furniture. Then, we put out some products there. It's just me going on show. It wasn't my business partners, so they could kind of focus on building the business and I just kind of focused on the Shark Tank pitch and stuff like that. Then, you get up there and it's stressful, not just because of pitching to the Sharks, which is how they make the show seem, but also knowing that whatever you do is recorded in front of seven million people. If you make a mistake, you're like, "Seven million people want to know about that." Stephanie: It's replayed over and over again, and reruns. Eric: Yeah. And, fortunately for us, I feel like Shark Tank, they did a pretty accurate representation of how I felt the conversation was. They're cutting down 45 minutes to seven minutes. They're trying to craft a story in seven minutes. Then, the hard part is all five of those sharks, they talk to you all at once and you don't know that on the show coming in. They all ask you a question right at the same time. When you see the people pitching and they're looking all over the place, it's just because five people are talking at once and they're just trying to figure out who to talk to. Stephanie: Wow. Sounds very intimidating. I do love Shark Tank, though. I hope to try and find your episode and see if I can watch it. Eric: Yeah, do it. It was a fun experience. It was like how your heart can race and go on through a roller coaster. It was really that. The whole time, it's just like the adrenaline is pumping. I'm not very good with words. I'm kind of dyslexic. I'm just hoping I'm not saying anything too stupid. I think it was a great experience all over. I think what they're doing for entrepreneurs is great, too. Stephanie: I completely agree. In early days, were you completely selling on your website? How much of it was selling direct to consumer versus wholesale, versus, maybe, utilizing Amazon would your sales strategy look with your brand? Eric: We've done a little bit of everything. We started off direct to consumer. We actually started off, as I said, as a simply an e-commerce retailer. Another people's products in the early days, until we're able to develop our own products. As we were able to get traction, we had passively, companies like barber shops and salons and pharmacists who would want to sell our products. We would kind of sell to these smaller retailers. It was never a core focus of us to bring on wholesale retailers. Eric: Then, we would get on the Amazon. This was the early days of Amazon. Hindsight is 2020. We probably missed a fair amount of opportunity on there. We really always focused on selling on Beardbrand.com. Amazon was never more than 10% of our sales. After a couple of years, we ended up pulling off of Amazon completely. You can't get our products on Amazon now. That's been a great decision for us. Then, we also brought in Target as one of our wholesalers. That happened 2018. Today, we're about half the retail and half direct on Amazon, and on any other market. Stephanie: Very cool. How do you think about separating yourself from your competitors? Not that I watched the beard space often. I don't have a beard that I know of, but I have seen a lot of beard oils coming on the market and just things focused around that. How do you separate yourself from the competitors, especially since you're an e-commerce site and you don't have a bunch of retail locations or not in a ton of places? How do you show that value on how it's different from other products? Eric: The reality is, you're always going to have a competition. If you have no competitors, then your competition is ignorance. We've kind of always embraced competitors and knowing that we're going to have competition in the sense that it's going to force us to elevate our game and provide such an amazing experience to our customers, that they'll have no option other than to go with us because we are the best. With that mentality, we've also come to terms with certain things, like we're not going to be the low price product on the marketplace. If that's the game you want, then we're not going to be a good fit for you. Eric: We try to be really clear about the value that we bring and the things that, maybe, we're not great at. There's always going to be trade off. To us, I think we do a great job because we bring all that value to our customers. Like we talked about earlier in the show, the content marketing, the education, the blog articles, the email flows, the YouTube videos, the customer service experience, the unboxing experience, I think, all of those things are what makes Beardbrand a different company and why someone would want to buy from us. If they're just some dude who doesn't really care and they just want whatever's cheap, then Beardbrand probably isn't going to be the best product for them. Stephanie: I like that idea of being upfront with, "Here's what we sell. If you don't want quality, then, maybe, go somewhere else to find something different." Do you market differently based on that? Eric: To be fair, there's other quality products out there as well. I don't think there's quality products out there that also do the education, that also do the packaging, that also do the customer experience. There's so much more to a business than what's in the package or what's in the box? I think a lot of companies get so focused on their product. Anyone can rip off your product. They can exactly copy your product. They can come down to an exact tee. Then, if that's all you're standing on, what do you have there? Then, it becomes a race to the bottom for the price. Eric: When you build a business, you have to think beyond your product. You have to think about, "How can I really bring value to my customers that is beyond the product?" The product alone is not going to do it. Stephanie: Got it. I love that. How do you think about building better business models for other e-commerce companies? I was looking at, I think, on Twitter, you had an experience with West Elm. I guess they had marked down a table. You kind of went through how e-commerce companies need to figure out how to develop better business models. What is your advice around that? Maybe, you can highlight that experience a bit, because I didn't read the whole thread. Eric: Yeah. A little background story. I bought that table, that table I'm actually using for my podcast studio. 25 days later, they put on a sale where I could get the exact same table, but it cost me 75 days, or excuse me, $75 less. As a consumer, that's kind of frustrating, because you kind of feel like an idiot for not waiting out. I would have waited 25 days to save 75 bucks. Personally, I don't think that's a good experience. I recognize they're doing sales, they're doing weekly sales, and some sales are better than others. To me, I feel like, have some kind of policy in place where, within a certain time frame, whatever you feel is appropriate: two weeks, a month, two months, whatever, that you can guarantee the offer that you're giving to them. Eric: It doesn't even have to be a money back guarantee. It could be a store credit guarantee. Then, I think that's going to encourage a lot more confidence in the consumers. Also, consumers will be more likely to buy from them again, because if you have the alternative where you're just like, "I know you screwed; you missed out on this one; you already bought it," then, it's like, "Well, next time, I'm just really going to wait. I'm just going to wait until I know there's an incredible deal," or, "I'm just not going to buy at all because I don't want to feel like I want to be made a fool again." Eric: You run the risk if you're running sales all the time and they're not the exact same sale. Not everyone will feel this, but some people will subconsciously be feeling this. There's quick and easy ways to really just guarantee the experience about it. I don't want to tell people how to run their business and their policy. I'm not mad at them. I'm just kind of calling them out that I think they could do better. Then, to be fair, West Elm reached out to me on Twitter and they offered me store credit. Stephanie: That's nice. Eric: You don't want to have to really fight and argue for that. You just want them to make it right. Stephanie: I think that's a good point, though. Also, that big brands are looking to smaller companies and the individual consumer to kind of learn from. That's a really good point of making the consumer feel good after a purchase and not having buyer's remorse. I've definitely had that experience before of buying something and then seeing a discount afterwards, and then waiting the next time, and then there's no more inventory. Then, I just never go back again. Those little moments definitely matter. Eric: Well, then you think about, the whole West Elm experience for me is, I couldn't do a live chat or email them about it. I had to call them. Then, I called them and I was on hold for 25 minutes. Then, after 25 minutes, they pretty much told me I could ship the thing back and then buy a new one, but shipping would not be reimbursed. Financially, it wasn't going to make sense. It's like, "Okay, this is how you're going to do it." Then, as a small company, you think that these large companies have all the advantages because they can buy in bulk and get better prices. Well, a lot of people don't buy based on products. They buy because they want to be able to reach out to you and talk with real person, not be on hold for 25 minutes. Those are the things that I want you to think about as you build your business, how you can compete with Amazon and how you can compete with West Elm and Walmart and these giant companies out there. Stephanie: I love that. What's one thing that you wish online sellers would start and stop doing? I'm asking you this question because I see you're big in the e-commerce community, always talking and highlighting different e-commerce stores. You've probably seen a lot of best practices that sellers do, and some things are like, "You should just stop. That's not good." Eric: Going back, I don't want to tell anyone how to run their business. There's a lot of ways to build a business. It kind of comes down to who your audience is and what they're okay with. A couple of things that we've always avoided is we don't want to do pop-ups. There's no pop-ups. There's no tricks. There's no immediate discounts. One of the things that is a pet peeve of mine is, "Here's a pop-up. Do you want to save 10% on your next order?" Then, they click x or, "Close out of this if you don't want to save money," something kind of condescending like that; or, with the little spin wheel. I think a lot of these has become a little hokey. Eric: The people selling those software as a service thing always claim that they work. We've actually cut a significant amount of our third party plugins, just because it made our websites so bloated. Stephanie: I was reading about that, how quick were you able to get your website down? I think I saw four seconds. Eric: Oh, my god. We were doing a speed test on our old website. The homepage on the desktop, I think it would have been in the 40 range score. Then, I think the mobile side would have been in the 20 to 25 range, the score [crosstalk 00:34:34]. Then, we essentially rolled out a new website template, a new website theme, killed all the third-party plugins. The new speed is now around 77 for the desktop and around 40 or 45 for the mobile. Stephanie: That's great. Eric: I don't know what that is in actual load times, but in terms of data, according to Google, it's a significant increase. Some of our blog posts would take 10 seconds to load. We really just went and found the stuff. It wasn't just the theme, too. We had some images that we uploaded, which were two megabytes in size, something ridiculous like that. It's just kind of like eight years into having a business and a lot of people putting their hands into the business, it gets a little you lose sight of things. It's always good to circle back every once in a while. Stephanie: I think doing that audit is really important, because like you said, after many years, people are implementing their own things without thinking about the long-term strategy of it and how it might impact things. I think, web chat is one thing where a lot of websites have the digital chat, but that increases the website's load time by a ton. Maybe, people don't even fully utilize it. They would rather call or send an email. It's good to just do that audit, I'd say, at least yearly. Eric: We had one of those live chats. I think it presented some issues because, sometimes, a little pop-up would block information or block the "Add to Cart" button. Stephanie: Oh, man. They're like, "I'm just trying to buy and you're not letting me." Eric: Exactly. It's just like as templates get uploaded or themes get updated, things get reverted. We killed it. We no longer have that JavaScript burden of loading. Those chat bots are fundamentally the things that slow down your page load speed the most, I've seen. We haven't seen any drop in conversion rates or sales. Then, in addition to that, the alternative, what we did is we just moved to a phone number that people can text. I think what we're getting is people who are more serious about needing advice rather than just kind of casual looky-loos who see a little pop-up and they're like, "Oh, yeah, da-da-da-da-da." Stephanie: I that, looky-loos. Eric: That's what my mom calls them. Stephanie: That's good. What metrics are you paying attention to most? You've mentioned conversion rates. Now, we've talked about website speed. Are there a certain set of metrics that you pay the most attention to? Eric: Yeah. I'm like your typical A.D.D. entrepreneur. Being in the details on a daily basis is really hard for me. Everything I do is kind of on an ad hoc basis. When it comes to YouTube, the things that we really look at are our watch time and our click through rate. They're going to be the big indications if a video is going to be successful or not. Then, on our website, really, I'm the top level kind of guy, so I'm looking at revenue. I'm looking at orders. Then, on the ad hoc level, I look at how our blog is converting, then, how our traffic outside of our blog, two of our stores is converting. Then, our page speed has been something that's been a pretty big metric for me, lately. Then, there's so many other more metrics that I should be looking into that I'm fortunate that we have team members who are looking for [crosstalk 00:38:09]- Stephanie: Do that for you. Eric: ... email performance and how those are doing. Stephanie: Is there any themes around either video content that you put out or blog content that you've seen, certain types of videos? Maybe, funny ones convert better or more how-to blog content converts better. Any best practices around releasing content in a strategic way that will actually create a future buyer? Eric: Our strategy is to leverage YouTube's organic growth. To do that, you need to have the viewers want to watch more of your content and stay on YouTube. The strategy isn't really so much of, "Hey, buy this," or, "Be aware of this." It's more of get awareness of the brand. We try to integrate a lot of branding on our videos. We put our taglines on every video, to keep on growing and change the way society views beardsmen. All those call outs in the lower thirds. Then, we try to integrate product placements in our videos as well. It's just bringing awareness to it and not driving people off the YouTube. Eric: Subsequently, when you do that, you're less concerned with any kind of direct sales that you're getting from videos. One great plugin tool that we've used on our Shopify store is called Grapevine. Grapevine allows you to have a simple one-question survey that you put at the end of after they've purchased. We use that to say, "Hey, how did you first hear about us?" We have about 20 different options, from Shark Tank to our YouTube channel to various YouTube personalities. We found that 40% of our customers have first found out about us from YouTube. Eric: Being able to attribute that any particular video, we can kind of segment it a little bit. 18% of it is from our barbershop videos, which was a fair amount. Beyond that, you just kind of have to trust the process. Stephanie: Got it? Do you find influencers in the space? When you're talking about having these barbers do these videos, do you find someone who already has a following? Do you kind of create that following organically through under your brand? Maybe, it's someone that no one would have ever known about, but you just know that they're a great personality to do the video? Eric: A little of both, I would say. One of our most or one of our longest tenured relations, well, we've got a couple of long tenured relationships with influencers, Carlos Costa. We reached out to him back in 2013. He's been with us kind of since then as an influencer for the brand. Then, he's grown to make videos for us. Then, he reached out to Greg Berzinsky, who at that time, I think he had, maybe, 20,000 or 30,000 followers on Instagram. He's a big believer in the brand. Eric: We try to find people who really love your brand, who love the products, who love what we're doing. It's just easier for them to be excited about it. We also try to work with smaller influencers, those who are, maybe, still getting established, or who have a following because they're not influencers. Tobias van Schneider is another one. He's another business owner. He's got other businesses. He's not making money from promoting products. He's more likely to talk about our products and not ask for compensation, which is something that you need as a bootstrap company, to be able to make your dollars go far. Eric: It's been a little bit of that. Then, we have had employees at Beardbrand who are like, "Hey, man. Get on camera. Talk about this. You've got a great beard." They've done that. We've done a little both and have had success and challenges and both processes as well. Stephanie: That's very cool to experiment with all those different types of models. I like the idea of having the employees be the influencer. I know that a lot of companies in Asia are doing this. I haven't seen a lot of companies in the US fully utilizing that model of creating micro-influencers within the company, and then developing their own followings. That's just a nice organic way to do it. Having someone who is an actual expert on the product without being too salesy, because they're not a salesperson. Eric: We try it, too. If you look at our Instagram account, the Beardbrand account is replying to comments, you'll always see Sylvester. He's replying to him. He'll sign his name, or whoever's replying to a comment. On YouTube, they'll sign their name. We're totally in favor of get to know our people, get to know our copywriter, Mike, and get to know our growth marketer, James. Eric: Again, we talked about how you compete with Amazon. Amazon doesn't have a James. They don't have a Mike. They don't have a Lindsey. They don't have a Jordan. They don't have Chandler. But, we have those people. The more we can help them get to know the team. Then, the risk is if you just work with one person within your company, then, that person could hold you hostage or quit or leave or getting a DUI or do something like that. If you have 10 or 20 different people on the regular who you integrate into your content, then, in the natural course of business, as people move on and things change, then, you'll still be able to move forward. Stephanie: In a world where everything is becoming automated and you always know you're talking to bots, I think it's actually nice how certain business models are kind of flipping that. You're mentioning about developing a relationship with the person at the company where you are used to seeing the same name and you kind of are developing an Internet relationship with someone at the company that you trust and grow to love. I like how that model is kind of reversing a bit over the past year. Eric: Sylvester, who I mentioned, that's his full time job, is he runs a community. His responsibility is to build those relationships. He's heading up our private forums. He's putting on these events. He's interacting with people on Twitter and Instagram. As they chat on Twitter, and as they chat on YouTube, and they see the same name over and over again. They start to learn about him. Eric: In our emails, we'll have a photograph of him. We'll talk about him. We'll talk about the style. People will start to trust his input because, obviously, me as the founder, a lot of videos or a lot of views to those videos, a lot of people want to come and talk to me, but I can't interact with 40 people a day and still run the company and have sanity, really. Well, to scale up what I bring, and not only that, Sylvester's got way more incredible style than me. He's a lot more empathetic than me. He's able to really provide these people great advice in a way that I cannot. It brings a lot of joy to me to be able to offer that to our audience, and also, that Sylvester is able to do what he loves. Stephanie: That's really fun. To zoom out a bit, go a little bit higher level, what kind of digital commerce trends are you most excited about that are coming down the pike right now? Eric: Probably, the thing I don't follow too much is the trends. I feel like we just kind of fall into them. SMS is something that a lot of people are talking about, and something that we've actually been doing for a good half a year now. We do it in a way that, I think, most people aren't doing it. Most people see SMS as just another channel to market and throw sales and discounts. That drives consumers crazy. If I see someone marketing to me on SMS, I'm just like, "You're dead to me." How we're using it is as style consulting. You text us, send us a photo. Stephanie: That's good. Eric: SMS is perfect for that because you got your phone there, take a selfie, send it to us, we can tell you where you're trimming your beard, how your neckline is coming in, what your hairline looks like, and what kind of hairstyle will work for you. I think that's an excellent way to use SMS. It's funny. Once we started using SMS that way, the company we work with, Emotive, they actually changed their whole marketing position to be more about style consultants and beauty consultants, and things like that. Stephanie: That's funny. Eric: I want to take full credit for that, but I would like to say we had a little bit of influence in the way that they're selling us on this. I think that's better for the consumer as well to be able to connect with them on a one-to-one kind of consultant basis, rather. Stephanie: How do you make sure they stick with your brand? I can see them, maybe, not having the expertise, like you're talking about, how you're trimming your beard wrong, or what kind of product you need, because of whatever they see in the photo, how do you make sure that they stick with your brand guidelines and make sure they're speaking in the way that you want and they're recommending things correctly and not giving bad advice? Eric: This goes back to our core values, which are freedom, honor, and trust. Part of the hiring process is making sure that we hire people who align with these core values. Then, it's not blind faith with trust, but through experience and interactions. I know Sylvester. I know his style. I see him show up every day in the office and what he's wearing and how he's behaving and how he communicates. It's like, "Dude, man. Go at it. Be yourself." Our brand standard is communicate to our customers in a way that you communicate to your friends. Those no corporate speak, nothing. Eric: If you're a goofy guy, talk goofy. If you're a serious guy, talk serious. Be yourself. You are going to have different experiences. Interacting with Sylvester is going to be different than interacting with Matt. They're two different people. That's totally okay. Stephanie: That's great. Are there any other channels that you're utilizing or looking to utilize over the next couple of years? Eric: For us, our goal has been, again, going back to me being an A.D.D. entrepreneur, you try a little bit of everything. The past two years has been fixing all of my A.D.D. new channels that we've been in. We killed Amazon. We killed selling in the Europe. We've cut marketing channels. It's really how do we get better at the channels we're in? How do we get better at Facebook marketing? How do we get better at Instagram marketing? How do we get better YouTube content? Eric: Like I said, we have a newer, smaller YouTube channel that we're trying to grow and build that awareness. In terms of just completely introducing anything that we've never done before, like TV advertising or radio advertising or podcast advertising, we're going to be staying away from that until we feel like we've completely capitalized on the opportunities of the channels we're currently in. Stephanie: That makes sense. I think killing projects and platforms is a good first step to making sure that you can focus on what's actually working to, then, move into a new channel around the tryout. It sounds like a good strategy to me. Eric: I'll tell you, it sucks, though, when you kill something and then you don't get better at the thing you're supposed to get better at. Stephanie: Yeah, that's a big bummer. Eric: We've done that. Stephanie: That happened a few times? Eric: Yeah. When we pulled out of Europe, Europe was about 20% of our business. We did this March 31st of last year. It was about 20% of our business. The intent was with the new focus of not having to deal with multiple fulfillment centers and different time zones and multiple stores and things like that, that we could get really good at serving our customers. Subsequently, 2019 was a terrible year for us. We weren't able to capture the lost sales that I thought we'd be able to by having more focus. We've had to really analyze. It wasn't so much selling into Europe. That was the thing. I think it was more of the internal structure of our team and kind of red tape that got put in place after seven years of business and systems and processes that kind of built up on itself. We should have taken an axe to all of that, rather than, maybe, potentially taking an axe to the UK channel. Stephanie: Got it. Is there any big initiatives that you undertook that you were like, you talked about internal processes and structures, is there any one thing that led to kind of riding the business back to where you wanted to go after the whole shutting down Europe? Eric: Yeah. Transparently, we had the worst fourth quarter we've ever had. It was a bloodbath. We were just losing a significant amount of cash and just burning through cash. We just had to make hard decisions about the business. When you're hemorrhaging money, you're not profitable, we had to scale back to 15. A leaner team means, "Hey, we're no longer going to have people proofing your work anymore. You're going to have to be responsible for your own work-end. You're no longer going to have someone who's kind of being the quarterback of the marketing team. You have to kind of interact directly with your audience, or your coworkers." By scaling back the team, you were almost, by necessity, forced to cut a lot of that red tape and focus on getting stuff done. Stephanie: Super important. All right. At the end of the interview, we'd like to do a lightning round, which is where I ask you a question and you have under a minute to quickly answer whatever comes to mind. Are you ready, Eric? Eric: I am electrified. Stephanie: Woo-hoo. All right. What's up next on new product launches coming to Beardbrand, if any? Eric: Our big thing is killing scent confusion or ending scent confusion. We want to provide head to toe fragrance and matching products. We don't have anything in your midsection. That's a little hint of a product that will be coming. Stephanie: Fun. I'll have to stay tuned for that. What's up next content or video-wise that you're excited about producing or creating next? Eric: We want to systematize our barbershop and winding in five different barbers and record over the course of a week, which would be a new way for us to perform. I can't wait to do that, but, this whole quarantine has got to end first. Stephanie: That sounds really fun. What's up next on your reading list? Eric: I hate reading. Stephanie: Podcasts, audible, anything? Eric: I hate reading. I'll tell you I just finished the book called Rocket Fuel which talks about integrators and visionaries. It was the one book that I've read over the past year. I'm just going to piggyback off of that one. Stephanie: I don't like it. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Eric: Again, man, I just had a baby five weeks ago. Stephanie: Congrats. Me, too. Eric: Oh, no way. Stephanie: Yeah. I had twins eight weeks ago. Eric: Oh, poor you. Stephanie: Poor us. Eric: It's got to be crazy, right? We're in the quarantine. Stephanie: Yeah. No Netflix for us then, huh? I don't know. I watch Tiger Kings in my off time when they're sleeping. Eric: My answer is a lot of primitive survival type of videos on YouTube. That's my go-to content that I consume. Stephanie: That's great. All right. A little harder one, what's up next for e-commerce pros? Eric: I think there's going to be a move away from Amazon from both a consumer perspective and a seller perspective. I think Amazon is really kind of twisting the screw in a lot of people. There's going to be a little bit of blowback from that. Stephanie: Completely agree, especially with everything going on right now where Amazon's picking what products are essential. I think they just said that they are going to be optimizing for its margins. Instead of showing people, maybe, what they want to find, they're going to be showing people products that have higher margins. I can see that also happening. Eric: They're also neutering a lot of people in the affiliate space where they just literally cut their commissions in half. Stephanie: That's not good. Eric: [crosstalk 00:54:51]. Stephanie: Well, it sounds a good prediction, then. Eric: Yeah. Less people will be pointing links to Amazon, I think. Stephanie: All right. Any final words of advice or wisdom, Eric, that you want to share before we hop off? Eric: The big thing I always like to tell people is, in life you always have doubts and questions about what you need to do. The reality is you need to just go out there, execute, and do it. Action, a lot of times, is better than no action. Just go out there. You know what you need to do. Go and get it done. Stephanie: Yes, do it. All right. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Eric. It was a blast. See you soon. Eric: My pleasure.  

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Sometimes These Stories Are Just Too Much For The Guys To tAKE sERIOUSLY! Put your corporate logo on Eric For $2000 and see him go shirtless until Thanksgiving. ericandgord.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/eric-brennan9/message

Panel: Mark Ericksen Josh Adams Nate Hopkins Charles Max Wood Special Guest: Eric Oestrich In this episode of Elixir Mix, the panel talks with Eric Oestrich who is a web developer who resides in Indianapolis, Indiana. He and the panel talk about ExVenture, Gossip, Cowboy, Raisin, Grapevine, and much more! Listen to today’s episode to hear all about it! Finally, check out Eric’s ElixirConf talk and his blog, too! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job!  0:51 – Charles introduces the panel. 1:14 – Nate talks about his background. 1:27 – Chuck: My first programming job I worked with Nate. Nate also works now with Eric Berry. We have a special guest and that is Eric Oestrich. Tell us who you are, please! 1:55 – Eric: I work for Smart Logic, LLC. We are a consultancy who has moved to Elixir for the last 2 years. 2:14 – Chuck: Tell us what ExVenture is? 2:46 – Eric: Late 80’s to mid-90’s it’s like a MUD tech space game. Eric goes into detail of what ExVenture is. 3:28 – Panel: Familiar with MUDS. 3:36 – Panel: Audience can’t tell that Eric isn’t an old guy. Eric – you aren’t an old gentleman – how did you get into it?! 4:02 – Eric: The concept has fascinated me. It’s pure game mechanics. In school I wrote things in Python and try to make it threaded. Never got it going. After that I wanted to do a MUD but not good enough in C and couldn’t get it working in Ruby neither. But one faithful day (a year ago) I got an echo and chat server and now we have a MUD. 5:02 – Panel: Why should you be interested? I will tell you why. ExVenture is an open source... I encourage everyone to dig into and play with it! It is a game (so that makes it more fun) but you are dealing with game mechanics. I am also curious where you wanted this to go? What made you say: I want to create this and make it open source? 6:37 – Eric: I like it and work has mostly played for it. It’s MIT because of that. Early in the project (between client work) it was a common thread and that’s why it’s open source. 7:27 – Panel: I ran into you at the conference and you were showing me... Talk about getting metrics out of your system, please? 8:20 – Eric answers the question. 9:09 – Panel: When people are trying to get metrics out of their system – what EVEN makes a good metric? 9:21- Eric: I am trying to figure that out myself, actually. I want to know how long it takes for someone to login? Is that someone trying to hack into my system? If you speak at a global channel or something else... Eric goes into more detail. Eric also mentions Prometheus. 10:31 – Panel: You mentioned: What would you want to see on a dashboard? 11:01 – Eric answers the question and mentions Prometheus EX. 12:19 – Panel: As you starting building this you were pulling libraries out of it and making them separate libraries. Are you pretty proud of GOSSIP? 12:37 – Eric: Yes! Gossip is based on web sockets and it’s a cowboy socket. Eric talks about Gossip. 13:10 – Panel: What other clients are you trying to support? 13:15 – Eric: There is a JavaScript client and Node-based game called... There is a bundle system for that. There is also a Python option. The one thing we haven’t done yet is a C client. That is important b/c most of the games that you could connect to are 25-30 years old. 14:26 – Panel asks a question. 14:34 – Eric: That is the C client we are waiting for. 14:43 – Panel: You talked at the conference (see the show notes) you talked about things you learned along the way. Can you talk about your process? What kind of bottlenecks and how did you resolve those issues? 15:10 – Eric answers the question. 16:44 – Panel: Did you run out of processes? 16:47 – Eric: The VM shut-off – it was just done. That was the first go-around. 19:27 – Eric: After the ElixirConf, I wanted to see how far I could push it. Eric continues. 19:51 – Panel: I want to identify some of these principles you just talked about. First, the major block was the gen server is a single process. 20:21 – Panel. 20:24 – Panel: I think that is a common mistake when people come to Elixir in the beginning stages. How did you solve it? 20:50 – Panelist answers the above question. 21:30 – Panel: That’s one of the big things. It’s an architectural issue. Second, you mentioned really LARGE messages. You were sending around really large messages. 22:20 – Eric: For every 100 players was a gigabyte of ram – it was a lot. And that was mostly b/c every copy...when a new character enters the room then that message gets sent out then it gets copied again, and... 23:08 – Panel. 23:24 – Panel: The third one you mentioned was around data base blocking or...? Can you talk about this one a little more, please? 23:33 – Eric answers the question. 24:02 – Panel. 24:30 – Eric: It was always saving...I tricked Echo into saving...There is a lot of things that could be better to save specifically faster. 24:52 – Panel: I think people would hit those 3 points eventually – there is a lot of value to that. 25:09 –Eric: Yes that was near the end of my ElixirConf talk and my blog. 25:23 – Panel. 25:33 – Eric: It came out in May and I figured out that I needed to learn how to cluster in Elixir. That’s what the ElixirConf was a bout from single node to multiple nodes. Eric continues. 28:38 – Panel: When you have a cluster – and I join – when I transfer from one room to another room, I could be passed off to another server or node? 29:01 – Eric: Whatever you mean by “being passed off.” Whatever server you land on that’s the one you will be on. The magic is that... 30:08 – Advertisement: Fresh Books! 31:15 – Panel: I am going through the code base now and I am excited. It’s going to help me get better at Elixir. 31:32 – Eric: That’s the point of ExVenture. 31:48 – Panel: You host a server so people can see what it’s about – and that’s Mid Mud, right? 32:09 – Eric: Yep, the first hour of you playing. There is a town crier, you request, and then combat monsters. Also, it is plugged into Gossip and you can talk to them. 32:44 – Eric: Yep, there you go: player logged-in! 32:55 – Panel: Maybe not b/c it will turn into a new podcast soon. 33:07 – Panel: What if I want to use Gossip, what is involved there? 33:16 – Eric: Gossip.Haus/docs – Go there! Set it up and start sending and receiving events. 34:40 – Panel: When I was trying to understand the Prometheus metrics it helped. And then in downloading it (as a tip), for me, it was easy to use the DOCKER instructions. 35:32 – Eric: Yep, that was done by a community member. 35:40 – Panel: Are you looking for people to contribute? 35:50 – Eric: Yep, I have a public Trello board. There are 2 tags. 36:12 – Panel: Sounds like you have people involved? 36:22 – Eric: Bunch of people came on after the ElixirConf. 36:33 – Panel: If people download it (another tip) in the SEEDS file you will find out the admin username and password. I guess that’s something you can add. Login: ADMIN and Password: PASSWORD. What I thought was fun (playing with it) in the admin screen I got a sense that it’s generic enough that I could create a space game. Like playing with sectors of space. Does that make sense? 37:42 – Eric: I don’t want it to be tied JUST to fantasy b/c that’s what MUD is. Everything should be good for historical/ fantasy/ etc. any genre that you want to do! 38:13 – Panel: I could see a HackFest and the company could create one for their business. You could have a lot of fun with it. 38:38 – Panel. 38:44 – Panel: Hidden things on their websites. 38:50 – Eric: Search TEXT ADVENTURE in Google Search. See show notes below. 39:24 – Panel: There is a whole subculture that people are interested in and I didn’t know that these people existed. I think that is interesting. 39:45 – Eric: There are tons of games out there that are 20+ years old! 39:55 – Panel: What is your favorite old school MUD game? 40:02 – Eric lists his favorite old school games! One of them is Achaea! 40:51 – Panel: I like the status bars are really cool. If you haven’t played it you have a health bar. Also you have these expiring times and it’s very cool – modern MUD. 41:22 – Eric. 42:00 – Panel: You came from a Ruby background – what was your transition to Elixir like for you? How did you come to Elixir? What was that like for you? 42:15 – Eric: Yeah some of my friends were into Elixir from a functional standpoint about 2 years ago. They were reading about Phoenix and such. They wanted to see how it was going to go. 43:06 – Panel: Try by fire. Coming from Ruby to Elixir – what some advice would you give the same person? 43:37 – Eric: It was less of a culture shock b/c Phoenix was still kind of “Railsy.” 44:35 – Panel: When I was first learning ERLANG, and telling them that it was a standard library. 44:59 – Eric: It’s using Cowboys Ranch. 45:19 – Eric: There are a number of people out there that they want people to run to SSH b/c it’s more secure. 45:46 – Eric: I guess if we are on this topic about secure... 46:40 – Chuck. 46:51 – Panel: I think there is a lot of value, Eric, and the lessons you’ve learned and the path you’ve gone down. If you are new to Elixir going to ExVenture is a great way to start. 47:20 – Eric. 47:35 – Panel: Just run the format and we can do it that way. I encourage people to download it and see what it’s like as a user, and play with it as an admin. We have a Meetup coming up this Thursday. Eric is coming in virtually into our Meetup group. 48:29 – Eric: Gossip is open source. Grapevine and Raisin – check these out, too, b/c they are open source, too. 48:58 – Panel: Where can people contact you? 49:05 – Eric: Twitter! GitHub! Mudcoders.com. 49:39 – Picks! 49:44 – Ad: Lootcrate.com Links: Ruby Elixir Elm Atom.io Flutter.io JavaScript Visual Studio Code React Erlang ExVenture Ex_Venture ExVenture’s Trello Board Prometheus Prometheus EX Gossip GitHub: Gossip 2018 – Conference Talk @ Elixir Conf with Eric Oestrich Eric’s Blog Libcluster Raft – GitHub.io – The Raft Consensus Algorithm pg2 MidMUD Gossip/Haus/Docs ExVenture: Docker Environment Google: Text Adventure Achaea Cowboy SSH Grapevine Raisin ASDF Plugins Eric’s GitHub Eric’s Twitter Brooklyn Nine-Nine Elm Packages MetaBase Sponsors: Loot Crate Get a Coder Job! Fresh Books Cache Fly Picks: Eric MUD Coders Elixir LS Mark ASDF Library Josh Brooklyn Nine-Nine Elm UI Nate Mentoring and Paired Programming Metabase Charles Monster Hunters International

Panel: Mark Ericksen Josh Adams Nate Hopkins Charles Max Wood Special Guest: Eric Oestrich In this episode of Elixir Mix, the panel talks with Eric Oestrich who is a web developer who resides in Indianapolis, Indiana. He and the panel talk about ExVenture, Gossip, Cowboy, Raisin, Grapevine, and much more! Listen to today’s episode to hear all about it! Finally, check out Eric’s ElixirConf talk and his blog, too! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job!  0:51 – Charles introduces the panel. 1:14 – Nate talks about his background. 1:27 – Chuck: My first programming job I worked with Nate. Nate also works now with Eric Berry. We have a special guest and that is Eric Oestrich. Tell us who you are, please! 1:55 – Eric: I work for Smart Logic, LLC. We are a consultancy who has moved to Elixir for the last 2 years. 2:14 – Chuck: Tell us what ExVenture is? 2:46 – Eric: Late 80’s to mid-90’s it’s like a MUD tech space game. Eric goes into detail of what ExVenture is. 3:28 – Panel: Familiar with MUDS. 3:36 – Panel: Audience can’t tell that Eric isn’t an old guy. Eric – you aren’t an old gentleman – how did you get into it?! 4:02 – Eric: The concept has fascinated me. It’s pure game mechanics. In school I wrote things in Python and try to make it threaded. Never got it going. After that I wanted to do a MUD but not good enough in C and couldn’t get it working in Ruby neither. But one faithful day (a year ago) I got an echo and chat server and now we have a MUD. 5:02 – Panel: Why should you be interested? I will tell you why. ExVenture is an open source... I encourage everyone to dig into and play with it! It is a game (so that makes it more fun) but you are dealing with game mechanics. I am also curious where you wanted this to go? What made you say: I want to create this and make it open source? 6:37 – Eric: I like it and work has mostly played for it. It’s MIT because of that. Early in the project (between client work) it was a common thread and that’s why it’s open source. 7:27 – Panel: I ran into you at the conference and you were showing me... Talk about getting metrics out of your system, please? 8:20 – Eric answers the question. 9:09 – Panel: When people are trying to get metrics out of their system – what EVEN makes a good metric? 9:21- Eric: I am trying to figure that out myself, actually. I want to know how long it takes for someone to login? Is that someone trying to hack into my system? If you speak at a global channel or something else... Eric goes into more detail. Eric also mentions Prometheus. 10:31 – Panel: You mentioned: What would you want to see on a dashboard? 11:01 – Eric answers the question and mentions Prometheus EX. 12:19 – Panel: As you starting building this you were pulling libraries out of it and making them separate libraries. Are you pretty proud of GOSSIP? 12:37 – Eric: Yes! Gossip is based on web sockets and it’s a cowboy socket. Eric talks about Gossip. 13:10 – Panel: What other clients are you trying to support? 13:15 – Eric: There is a JavaScript client and Node-based game called... There is a bundle system for that. There is also a Python option. The one thing we haven’t done yet is a C client. That is important b/c most of the games that you could connect to are 25-30 years old. 14:26 – Panel asks a question. 14:34 – Eric: That is the C client we are waiting for. 14:43 – Panel: You talked at the conference (see the show notes) you talked about things you learned along the way. Can you talk about your process? What kind of bottlenecks and how did you resolve those issues? 15:10 – Eric answers the question. 16:44 – Panel: Did you run out of processes? 16:47 – Eric: The VM shut-off – it was just done. That was the first go-around. 19:27 – Eric: After the ElixirConf, I wanted to see how far I could push it. Eric continues. 19:51 – Panel: I want to identify some of these principles you just talked about. First, the major block was the gen server is a single process. 20:21 – Panel. 20:24 – Panel: I think that is a common mistake when people come to Elixir in the beginning stages. How did you solve it? 20:50 – Panelist answers the above question. 21:30 – Panel: That’s one of the big things. It’s an architectural issue. Second, you mentioned really LARGE messages. You were sending around really large messages. 22:20 – Eric: For every 100 players was a gigabyte of ram – it was a lot. And that was mostly b/c every copy...when a new character enters the room then that message gets sent out then it gets copied again, and... 23:08 – Panel. 23:24 – Panel: The third one you mentioned was around data base blocking or...? Can you talk about this one a little more, please? 23:33 – Eric answers the question. 24:02 – Panel. 24:30 – Eric: It was always saving...I tricked Echo into saving...There is a lot of things that could be better to save specifically faster. 24:52 – Panel: I think people would hit those 3 points eventually – there is a lot of value to that. 25:09 –Eric: Yes that was near the end of my ElixirConf talk and my blog. 25:23 – Panel. 25:33 – Eric: It came out in May and I figured out that I needed to learn how to cluster in Elixir. That’s what the ElixirConf was a bout from single node to multiple nodes. Eric continues. 28:38 – Panel: When you have a cluster – and I join – when I transfer from one room to another room, I could be passed off to another server or node? 29:01 – Eric: Whatever you mean by “being passed off.” Whatever server you land on that’s the one you will be on. The magic is that... 30:08 – Advertisement: Fresh Books! 31:15 – Panel: I am going through the code base now and I am excited. It’s going to help me get better at Elixir. 31:32 – Eric: That’s the point of ExVenture. 31:48 – Panel: You host a server so people can see what it’s about – and that’s Mid Mud, right? 32:09 – Eric: Yep, the first hour of you playing. There is a town crier, you request, and then combat monsters. Also, it is plugged into Gossip and you can talk to them. 32:44 – Eric: Yep, there you go: player logged-in! 32:55 – Panel: Maybe not b/c it will turn into a new podcast soon. 33:07 – Panel: What if I want to use Gossip, what is involved there? 33:16 – Eric: Gossip.Haus/docs – Go there! Set it up and start sending and receiving events. 34:40 – Panel: When I was trying to understand the Prometheus metrics it helped. And then in downloading it (as a tip), for me, it was easy to use the DOCKER instructions. 35:32 – Eric: Yep, that was done by a community member. 35:40 – Panel: Are you looking for people to contribute? 35:50 – Eric: Yep, I have a public Trello board. There are 2 tags. 36:12 – Panel: Sounds like you have people involved? 36:22 – Eric: Bunch of people came on after the ElixirConf. 36:33 – Panel: If people download it (another tip) in the SEEDS file you will find out the admin username and password. I guess that’s something you can add. Login: ADMIN and Password: PASSWORD. What I thought was fun (playing with it) in the admin screen I got a sense that it’s generic enough that I could create a space game. Like playing with sectors of space. Does that make sense? 37:42 – Eric: I don’t want it to be tied JUST to fantasy b/c that’s what MUD is. Everything should be good for historical/ fantasy/ etc. any genre that you want to do! 38:13 – Panel: I could see a HackFest and the company could create one for their business. You could have a lot of fun with it. 38:38 – Panel. 38:44 – Panel: Hidden things on their websites. 38:50 – Eric: Search TEXT ADVENTURE in Google Search. See show notes below. 39:24 – Panel: There is a whole subculture that people are interested in and I didn’t know that these people existed. I think that is interesting. 39:45 – Eric: There are tons of games out there that are 20+ years old! 39:55 – Panel: What is your favorite old school MUD game? 40:02 – Eric lists his favorite old school games! One of them is Achaea! 40:51 – Panel: I like the status bars are really cool. If you haven’t played it you have a health bar. Also you have these expiring times and it’s very cool – modern MUD. 41:22 – Eric. 42:00 – Panel: You came from a Ruby background – what was your transition to Elixir like for you? How did you come to Elixir? What was that like for you? 42:15 – Eric: Yeah some of my friends were into Elixir from a functional standpoint about 2 years ago. They were reading about Phoenix and such. They wanted to see how it was going to go. 43:06 – Panel: Try by fire. Coming from Ruby to Elixir – what some advice would you give the same person? 43:37 – Eric: It was less of a culture shock b/c Phoenix was still kind of “Railsy.” 44:35 – Panel: When I was first learning ERLANG, and telling them that it was a standard library. 44:59 – Eric: It’s using Cowboys Ranch. 45:19 – Eric: There are a number of people out there that they want people to run to SSH b/c it’s more secure. 45:46 – Eric: I guess if we are on this topic about secure... 46:40 – Chuck. 46:51 – Panel: I think there is a lot of value, Eric, and the lessons you’ve learned and the path you’ve gone down. If you are new to Elixir going to ExVenture is a great way to start. 47:20 – Eric. 47:35 – Panel: Just run the format and we can do it that way. I encourage people to download it and see what it’s like as a user, and play with it as an admin. We have a Meetup coming up this Thursday. Eric is coming in virtually into our Meetup group. 48:29 – Eric: Gossip is open source. Grapevine and Raisin – check these out, too, b/c they are open source, too. 48:58 – Panel: Where can people contact you? 49:05 – Eric: Twitter! GitHub! Mudcoders.com. 49:39 – Picks! 49:44 – Ad: Lootcrate.com Links: Ruby Elixir Elm Atom.io Flutter.io JavaScript Visual Studio Code React Erlang ExVenture Ex_Venture ExVenture’s Trello Board Prometheus Prometheus EX Gossip GitHub: Gossip 2018 – Conference Talk @ Elixir Conf with Eric Oestrich Eric’s Blog Libcluster Raft – GitHub.io – The Raft Consensus Algorithm pg2 MidMUD Gossip/Haus/Docs ExVenture: Docker Environment Google: Text Adventure Achaea Cowboy SSH Grapevine Raisin ASDF Plugins Eric’s GitHub Eric’s Twitter Brooklyn Nine-Nine Elm Packages MetaBase Sponsors: Loot Crate Get a Coder Job! Fresh Books Cache Fly Picks: Eric MUD Coders Elixir LS Mark ASDF Library Josh Brooklyn Nine-Nine Elm UI Nate Mentoring and Paired Programming Metabase Charles Monster Hunters International

Panel Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:13 - Is there value in testing and refactoring? Client Value vs Developer Value Unit Tests Acceptance Tests 09:22 - Saving time and money Better Code Maintainability 13:45 - When not doing tests hurts 14:39 - Refactoring “Changing Shit”/Restructuring 19:48 - Approaching restructuring “Leave it better than you found it” Use metrics Coding “taste” and style 30:36 - Software exists to provide value 32:33 - Documentation 34:45 - Getting clients to see the value in tests Characterization Tests 41:04 - Deployment 42:57 - Client Dictatorship Using specific libraries or tools or databases The Trust Factor 054 – Red Flags with Potential or Current Clients with Ashe Dryden Draconian technology Picks Software Engineers Spend Lots of Time Not Building Software (Eric) Status Board (Eric) Backbone.js (Chuck) Toy Story: Smash It! (Chuck) Next Week Overcoming Burnout Transcript [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 58 of the Ruby Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. It looks like everybody else is busy, so it's just going to be us this week! So how's it going, Eric? ERIC: I'm not that busy. I had a busy week last week; and basically, I actually took yesterday off. So, I'm just starting to kind of get back into things again so I actually have a bunch of time. CHUCK: Yeah. I just picked up another contract so things are starting to ramp up for me again. And then I'm trying to get all these stuff together for a few other things I've got going on. But yeah, there's always something to do. ERIC: Yeah. The hamster world never stops spinning. CHUCK: Yup. I'm seriously thinking about going and taking a nap after this instead of working, though. So this week, we're going to be talking about "How to Convince Clients of the Value of Test and Refactoring" and things like that. I guess we should talk about the premise really quickly of "Is there value in Test and Refactoring and stuff?" ERIC: Yeah. I don't know, I don't agree with a lot of the kind of popular opinion about bits on how you test everything and all that stuff. I'm very -- pragmatic is a good way of raising about it, I'm not sure -- I think there's value there, but I don't think there's as much value as a lot of people place in it. And especially if you consider it from the client's perspective, there might not be as much value in testing and refactoring, all that stuff, as developers put into it. CHUCK: Okay. What value do you see in tests? ERIC: For client, the value that they're going to get out of test is going to be "Regression Type Test", like this bug occurred, it was fixed; there's a test to prove it's never going to come back. There's also value in kind of like "End-to-End Test" - some people call that "Exception Test" or "Integration Test" where the system works from point A to point C going through point B. That's where the clients are hopefully really involved with like writing the test, how it's going to flow, and all that stuff. In those cases, I think there's a lot of value for the client. Depending on the client and the type of software you're building, they might not want to put a lot of time into it. I've had couple of clients where they are too busy to actually write this Sentence test, and so I would write them based on what the client would tell me, and then as we iterate on it like the workflow, we would tweak or understand the system and I would take that understanding and write the test for them. On the other hand, "Unit Test" I think for a client, there's very little value for them directly in unit test. I think,

Panel Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:13 - Is there value in testing and refactoring? Client Value vs Developer Value Unit Tests Acceptance Tests 09:22 - Saving time and money Better Code Maintainability 13:45 - When not doing tests hurts 14:39 - Refactoring “Changing Shit”/Restructuring 19:48 - Approaching restructuring “Leave it better than you found it” Use metrics Coding “taste” and style 30:36 - Software exists to provide value 32:33 - Documentation 34:45 - Getting clients to see the value in tests Characterization Tests 41:04 - Deployment 42:57 - Client Dictatorship Using specific libraries or tools or databases The Trust Factor 054 – Red Flags with Potential or Current Clients with Ashe Dryden Draconian technology Picks Software Engineers Spend Lots of Time Not Building Software (Eric) Status Board (Eric) Backbone.js (Chuck) Toy Story: Smash It! (Chuck) Next Week Overcoming Burnout Transcript [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 58 of the Ruby Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. It looks like everybody else is busy, so it's just going to be us this week! So how's it going, Eric? ERIC: I'm not that busy. I had a busy week last week; and basically, I actually took yesterday off. So, I'm just starting to kind of get back into things again so I actually have a bunch of time. CHUCK: Yeah. I just picked up another contract so things are starting to ramp up for me again. And then I'm trying to get all these stuff together for a few other things I've got going on. But yeah, there's always something to do. ERIC: Yeah. The hamster world never stops spinning. CHUCK: Yup. I'm seriously thinking about going and taking a nap after this instead of working, though. So this week, we're going to be talking about "How to Convince Clients of the Value of Test and Refactoring" and things like that. I guess we should talk about the premise really quickly of "Is there value in Test and Refactoring and stuff?" ERIC: Yeah. I don't know, I don't agree with a lot of the kind of popular opinion about bits on how you test everything and all that stuff. I'm very -- pragmatic is a good way of raising about it, I'm not sure -- I think there's value there, but I don't think there's as much value as a lot of people place in it. And especially if you consider it from the client's perspective, there might not be as much value in testing and refactoring, all that stuff, as developers put into it. CHUCK: Okay. What value do you see in tests? ERIC: For client, the value that they're going to get out of test is going to be "Regression Type Test", like this bug occurred, it was fixed; there's a test to prove it's never going to come back. There's also value in kind of like "End-to-End Test" - some people call that "Exception Test" or "Integration Test" where the system works from point A to point C going through point B. That's where the clients are hopefully really involved with like writing the test, how it's going to flow, and all that stuff. In those cases, I think there's a lot of value for the client. Depending on the client and the type of software you're building, they might not want to put a lot of time into it. I've had couple of clients where they are too busy to actually write this Sentence test, and so I would write them based on what the client would tell me, and then as we iterate on it like the workflow, we would tweak or understand the system and I would take that understanding and write the test for them. On the other hand, "Unit Test" I think for a client, there's very little value for them directly in unit test. I think,

Panel Ashe Dryden (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 00:39 - Experience working with fixed bids 04:08 - Risks Value 06:45 - Collecting Payment Working in phases and milestones 08:56 - Are fixed bid projects fair? 16:57 - Nailing down specifics 19:51 - Dealing with scope creep Contract clauses/additional contracts 26:15 - Getting clients to agree with your fixed bid or hourly preference 28:29 - Estimates Prioritizing Point estimation 37:11 - Transitioning from fixed bid to hourly work 38:42 - Figuring out what to bid Project management Value-Based Fees: How to Charge - and Get - What You're Worth by Alan Weiss Option pricing 44:41 - Ask clients why they prefer fixed bid pricing Picks Healthy Programmer by Joe Kutner (Ashe) DuoLingo (Ashe) #RubyThanks (Ashe) Becoming a Better Programmer Indie GoGo campaign (Ashe) Douglas Rushkoff: Wall Street Journal adaptation from Present Shock (Eric) Ruby Heroes (Chuck) Colloquy (Chuck) Value-Based Fees: How to Charge - and Get - What You're Worth by Alan Weiss (Jeff) Next Week How do you convince clients of the value of tests, refactoring, etc.? Transcript ERIC: Chuck, I'm cold. Keep me warm! [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 57 of the Ruby Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Ashe Dryden. ASHE: Hello from Madison, Wisconsin! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. This week, we're going to be talking about "Fixed Bids". How much of you guys done with fixed bids? ASHE: I used to do them a lot more than I do them now; I actually tried to not do fixed bids. CHUCK: Is there a reason for that? ASHE: Yeah. It never really sticks really well with the fixed bid; I mostly do hourly now. I prefer hourly because it allows the client to kind of expand or contract their needs without feeling limited by the contract and it makes me feel less mean. CHUCK: Oh, it makes sense. ASHE: So I don't have to constantly say "Well, that wasn't really part of the original contract". I can give them what they need and what they want without having to have that difficult conversation. CHUCK: How about you guys, Eric and Jeff? JEFF: I've done a few very small fixed bid projects. But by large, I'm mostly hourly mostly for the same reason as Ashe has. And beyond that, it's really hard to get a scope timed on off and it makes it comfortable for me to try to bid on something. ERIC: For me...I don't know, maybe 20% if that -- I actually have a different reason. I don't mind fixed bids, but the project has to be very specific. There has to be a lot of trust between me and the client first off so that I can trust that they're going to understand what's cocube is; we don't have those problems or discussions. The other side of it is, the project has to be [inaudible] and that it's something I've done before or there's not a lot of technical risk on the project. If there is a lot of technical risk for a lot of unknowns, then I basically say "We're going to have to be hourly because I can't guess this upfront and commit to it". CHUCK: Yeah. I've done a couple of fixed bids myself, they were less than a thousand dollars effect; both of them were $500 a piece and it was an enough work that it wasn't that risky. One of them, I really actually didn't get paid on; and it was because I was setting up some software, some third-party software, for somebody on their server. He was unhappy with the result because there was a bug in the software that I set up, but I didn't actually write it. Anyway, it's kind of interesting I haven't done major fixed bid projects,

Panel Ashe Dryden (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 00:39 - Experience working with fixed bids 04:08 - Risks Value 06:45 - Collecting Payment Working in phases and milestones 08:56 - Are fixed bid projects fair? 16:57 - Nailing down specifics 19:51 - Dealing with scope creep Contract clauses/additional contracts 26:15 - Getting clients to agree with your fixed bid or hourly preference 28:29 - Estimates Prioritizing Point estimation 37:11 - Transitioning from fixed bid to hourly work 38:42 - Figuring out what to bid Project management Value-Based Fees: How to Charge - and Get - What You're Worth by Alan Weiss Option pricing 44:41 - Ask clients why they prefer fixed bid pricing Picks Healthy Programmer by Joe Kutner (Ashe) DuoLingo (Ashe) #RubyThanks (Ashe) Becoming a Better Programmer Indie GoGo campaign (Ashe) Douglas Rushkoff: Wall Street Journal adaptation from Present Shock (Eric) Ruby Heroes (Chuck) Colloquy (Chuck) Value-Based Fees: How to Charge - and Get - What You're Worth by Alan Weiss (Jeff) Next Week How do you convince clients of the value of tests, refactoring, etc.? Transcript ERIC: Chuck, I'm cold. Keep me warm! [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 57 of the Ruby Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Ashe Dryden. ASHE: Hello from Madison, Wisconsin! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. This week, we're going to be talking about "Fixed Bids". How much of you guys done with fixed bids? ASHE: I used to do them a lot more than I do them now; I actually tried to not do fixed bids. CHUCK: Is there a reason for that? ASHE: Yeah. It never really sticks really well with the fixed bid; I mostly do hourly now. I prefer hourly because it allows the client to kind of expand or contract their needs without feeling limited by the contract and it makes me feel less mean. CHUCK: Oh, it makes sense. ASHE: So I don't have to constantly say "Well, that wasn't really part of the original contract". I can give them what they need and what they want without having to have that difficult conversation. CHUCK: How about you guys, Eric and Jeff? JEFF: I've done a few very small fixed bid projects. But by large, I'm mostly hourly mostly for the same reason as Ashe has. And beyond that, it's really hard to get a scope timed on off and it makes it comfortable for me to try to bid on something. ERIC: For me...I don't know, maybe 20% if that -- I actually have a different reason. I don't mind fixed bids, but the project has to be very specific. There has to be a lot of trust between me and the client first off so that I can trust that they're going to understand what's cocube is; we don't have those problems or discussions. The other side of it is, the project has to be [inaudible] and that it's something I've done before or there's not a lot of technical risk on the project. If there is a lot of technical risk for a lot of unknowns, then I basically say "We're going to have to be hourly because I can't guess this upfront and commit to it". CHUCK: Yeah. I've done a couple of fixed bids myself, they were less than a thousand dollars effect; both of them were $500 a piece and it was an enough work that it wasn't that risky. One of them, I really actually didn't get paid on; and it was because I was setting up some software, some third-party software, for somebody on their server. He was unhappy with the result because there was a bug in the software that I set up, but I didn't actually write it. Anyway, it's kind of interesting I haven't done major fixed bid projects,

Panel Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Summer Camp) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Evan Light (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Discussion Fixed bid Time and materials Give a budget to the client Scope creep Do you renegotiate the contract on scope creep? Short fixed bids can help manage costs and risk Customer management Fixed vs. Hourly is a discussion of risk Provide options for a fixed bid Multipliers for each unknown Risk is added for each new technology added to the stack Alan Weiss Start up with a courting period and then renegotiate after the courting period Shorten the scope of the project When you lower your bid, remove features (value) from the bid Charge more! Picks Find a Mastermind or Group of people who do what you do (Chuck) Heil PR-40 Microphone (Chuck) Other dynamic (Chuck) Behringer XENYX (Chuck) Roland R-05 (Chuck) Resounder (Chuck) Adobe Audition (Chuck) Million Dollar Consulting (Eric) The Consulting Bible (Eric) Peepcode Play by Play (Eric) Destroy All Software (Eric) (anti-pick) iMac Microphone (Evan) (anti-pick) Eric Davis' Internet Connection (Evan) Math Minute Additions (Jeff) Steel City Ruby Conf (Jeff) Mass Effect 3 (Jeff) Star Wars the Old Republic (Evan) Transcript CHUCK: Anyway I’ve got to hang up and get off so-- EVAN: Yeah, whatever. ERIC: Yeah you got what you need out of us. I see. CHUCK: Yeah exactly. EVAN:  At least you kiss us after you f--- us. JEFF: That has got to be the sound. CHUCK: Hey everybody! Welcome back to the Ruby Freelancer Show. On today’s panel we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello. CHUCK: We also have Evan Light. EVAN: Hi! CHUCK: And we also have Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up? CHUCK: Now we’ve kind of been a quite bunch this morning, so we have to see how the show goes. So we were discussing what we want to talk about and one of the things that somebody brought up (and I’ve been asked a few times) is whether or not to take fixed bids. And I'm pretty sure I know what you guys are going to say, so if anyone wants to chime in and share their opinion on whether fixed bids or hourly, or either one or both are okay, go ahead. ERIC:   Well why don’t we start with actually defining what fixed bid is, because I see people say, don’t do fixed bids. But they actually don’t mean the same thing on someone else. CHUCK: Okay, so when I say fixed bids, what do you think? ERIC: For me, it’s basically a set cost, typically a set of features and then there will typically be like a set deadline which goes wishing by usually. CHUCK: Right, and then the other side of the spectrum is every hour I work, you pay me X amount of money right? ERIC: Yeah and some people consider that hourly. CHUCK: What else would you consider hourly? JEFF: Not government based, we will call fixed bid from fixed price and that's all the expenses everything, you are doing for whatever scope the project is, rolls up to some big number. And the other to way to do, is time and materials. So, you charge for every minute you work on that project and every pencil you buy or whatever you do to clear it up. But that is the other, I don’t know, vernacular terms I heard for those two billing concepts. CHUCK: Right. I want to see you code with a pencil, that would be fun. JEFF: Sometimes it will be faster. CHUCK: It's easier to debug. You just turn it over and use the eraser right? ERIC: Yeah I actually do it lot on index cards, when modelling or whatever, just kind of write stuff on index card. If it's not going to look like it's going to relay just throw the index card away. It’s a lot faster than removing code. CHUCK: That's true. That’s kind of an interesting planning phase or I guess modelling phase. And you can do agile, so that you are consistently updating your model as you code.

Panel Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Summer Camp) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Evan Light (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Discussion Fixed bid Time and materials Give a budget to the client Scope creep Do you renegotiate the contract on scope creep? Short fixed bids can help manage costs and risk Customer management Fixed vs. Hourly is a discussion of risk Provide options for a fixed bid Multipliers for each unknown Risk is added for each new technology added to the stack Alan Weiss Start up with a courting period and then renegotiate after the courting period Shorten the scope of the project When you lower your bid, remove features (value) from the bid Charge more! Picks Find a Mastermind or Group of people who do what you do (Chuck) Heil PR-40 Microphone (Chuck) Other dynamic (Chuck) Behringer XENYX (Chuck) Roland R-05 (Chuck) Resounder (Chuck) Adobe Audition (Chuck) Million Dollar Consulting (Eric) The Consulting Bible (Eric) Peepcode Play by Play (Eric) Destroy All Software (Eric) (anti-pick) iMac Microphone (Evan) (anti-pick) Eric Davis' Internet Connection (Evan) Math Minute Additions (Jeff) Steel City Ruby Conf (Jeff) Mass Effect 3 (Jeff) Star Wars the Old Republic (Evan) Transcript CHUCK: Anyway I’ve got to hang up and get off so-- EVAN: Yeah, whatever. ERIC: Yeah you got what you need out of us. I see. CHUCK: Yeah exactly. EVAN:  At least you kiss us after you f--- us. JEFF: That has got to be the sound. CHUCK: Hey everybody! Welcome back to the Ruby Freelancer Show. On today’s panel we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello. CHUCK: We also have Evan Light. EVAN: Hi! CHUCK: And we also have Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up? CHUCK: Now we’ve kind of been a quite bunch this morning, so we have to see how the show goes. So we were discussing what we want to talk about and one of the things that somebody brought up (and I’ve been asked a few times) is whether or not to take fixed bids. And I'm pretty sure I know what you guys are going to say, so if anyone wants to chime in and share their opinion on whether fixed bids or hourly, or either one or both are okay, go ahead. ERIC:   Well why don’t we start with actually defining what fixed bid is, because I see people say, don’t do fixed bids. But they actually don’t mean the same thing on someone else. CHUCK: Okay, so when I say fixed bids, what do you think? ERIC: For me, it’s basically a set cost, typically a set of features and then there will typically be like a set deadline which goes wishing by usually. CHUCK: Right, and then the other side of the spectrum is every hour I work, you pay me X amount of money right? ERIC: Yeah and some people consider that hourly. CHUCK: What else would you consider hourly? JEFF: Not government based, we will call fixed bid from fixed price and that's all the expenses everything, you are doing for whatever scope the project is, rolls up to some big number. And the other to way to do, is time and materials. So, you charge for every minute you work on that project and every pencil you buy or whatever you do to clear it up. But that is the other, I don’t know, vernacular terms I heard for those two billing concepts. CHUCK: Right. I want to see you code with a pencil, that would be fun. JEFF: Sometimes it will be faster. CHUCK: It's easier to debug. You just turn it over and use the eraser right? ERIC: Yeah I actually do it lot on index cards, when modelling or whatever, just kind of write stuff on index card. If it's not going to look like it's going to relay just throw the index card away. It’s a lot faster than removing code. CHUCK: That's true. That’s kind of an interesting planning phase or I guess modelling phase. And you can do agile, so that you are consistently updating your model as you code.

Bob: If the SEC hasn’t approved IFRS, why is it on the CPA Exam?   Maritza: I am struggling with BEC. I have taken it four times and failed, but I have passed every other section. My first credit expires in August 2012. I plan on taking BEC again in the January/February 2012 testing window. I’m not sure my review course is doing enough to prepare me for BEC.Can you please give me some guidance for BEC? Do you think I should I purchase a different review course? Can you recommend which one to purchase? Thank you very much for your input.   Laurie: I started studying for the exam earlier this year using a combination of a review course and your NINJA Notes (love them by the way). I have passed FAR and AUD. My original plan was to study for REG next.I just looked and discovered that my review course has not yet released the 2012 study materials. Would studying with 2011 materials hurt me? Would it be better to take BEC next?   Jason: I’ve heard you mention that the actual CPA exam at the testing center is a little easier in level of difficulty than the test bank software questions. Did I understand you correctly? Also, is it just me or do the Wiley Text Book questions seem a lot more difficult than the Wiley Test Bank software questions?   Bob: I have the Wiley test bank of 2006-2007 for all four parts. Is it advisable to go through the questions in there for problem solving as regards the Audit section?   Howard: For FAR, I know that you do one module at a time and then progress to the next module after you get between a 70-80% on a sample test of 20 multiple choice questions. But there is so much time and information that you learn between the first module & the last module. How do you prevent yourself from forgetting information before you reach the end of the last module?   Melissa: I am sitting for REG on January 9, 2012. Will I be OK to study with the 2011 materials? I am also using the Wiley test bank and your NINJA notes. Should I consider supplementing with another test bank?   Emily: I took a review course for FAR and studied for 6 months. I did everything that the review course said, completed all of the of MCQ's, did all simulations, reread the textbook, and completed the final exam and mock exams. I was scoring a 69% on the mock exam, so I should not be surprised that I did not pass on my first attempt. I think there may be a better review course for my next try.Do you recommend switching review courses? And should I move on and take BEC before trying FAR again?   Jennifer: I just got my score on REG passed! Now, I am not sure what to take next. My job is already getting busy with year-end projection, and I am a single mom. I scheduled FAR for the beginning of February. I am not sure if that will give me enough time to study all of the material for FAR. Do you think two months is enough?   Eric: For the first quarter of 2012, which sections of the CPA Exam are OK to use 2011 review videos, assuming you have the latest updates already from your 2011 review videos? Are any 2011 review videos are OK for the first 6 months of 2012, assuming you have the latest updated for 2011?   Rachel: I have passed three parts of the exam, but I am stuck on Audit. I took it in November 2010 and got a 74. I got a 64 on my retake in July 2011 and another 64 in November 2011. I don't think priorities or motivation are my problem, so I think I need to switch review courses.I bought the NINJA notes and am interested in the Wiley test bank. I was wondering if the test bank you are selling is the 2012 edition. I have 2 more testing windows before I lose credit for FAR. Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated!   Tom: I passed FAR, BEC and AUD and took REG in the 4th Quarter of 2011 and failed with a 68. I have two more shots at REG before I lose my first credit on May 31, 2012.