Podcasts about eric you

We're back for Episode 152! In this episode Cody and Eric catch up on the news and battle Mutation Nation (Neo Geo) vs Three Dirty Dwarves (Sega Saturn).   6:21 - Quick Questions 31:13 - Patreon Song 35:28 - Tea Time With Tim - TED Talk! 45:00 - Cody's Corner - Indie Heroes 4 1:35:30 - News 2:10:04 - Battle Of The Systems: Mutation Nation (Neo Geo) vs Three Dirty Dwarves (Sega Saturn)   News All – Nintendo Switch 2 – Nintendo direct - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrTVeYm4iIM  Release date – June 5th – but to purchase you have to have an invite from Nintendo from being a Nintendo account holder, The first batch of invitations will go out starting May 8, 2025. People with invites get 72hrs to purchase.  MarioKart World, Controllers can be used as mice, bigger thumb sticks, bigger shoulder buttons, magnetic lock, C button to go in to GameChat mode, console has mic built in to talk friends while playing the same or other games, Switch 2 Camera to see ither players and augment's games with players faces in games. Switch 2 dock has built in cooling fan, USB C top port on switch 2.  7.9” OLED Screen with HDR and 4K support, also a bunch of enhanced Switch games will be available to take advantage of the enhanced video support  256Gb internal Memory  New Nintendo Switch Pro Controller and a GameCube Controller with ‘C' Button for Nintendo Switch Online members to run with new GameCube games available through Nintendo Online  Crazy price $449 / £379 for the base cost – bundle cost with Mario Kart World digital $499 / £429  Physical Mario Kart World cost $79.00 / £74.99  Tim – MAHOOSIVE EVERCADE UPDATE – New NeoGeo based handhelds and cartridges.   NeoGeo Arcade 1 - https://evercade.co.uk/cartridges/neogeo-arcade-1/  Wind Jammers, Karnov and Friends - https://evercade.co.uk/cartridges/windjammers-karnov-friends/  HyperMegaTech! NEOGEO Super Pocket - https://www.hypermegatech.com/neogeo-edition/  Eric - You've probably been pronouncing Balatro wrong all along, but 'it's kind of a gif/jif situation' | PC Gamer  https://www.pcgamer.com/games/roguelike/youve-probably-been-pronouncing-balatro-wrong-all-along-but-its-kind-of-a-gif-jif-situation/  CODY - https://www.retronews.com/90s-office-sim-spreadcheat-release-and-price-details-announced/  Tim - RFOFF Commodore 64 and 128 V1.1 - by Mark from The Retro Channel on YouTube. This is a replacement for your janky old RF modulator for all C64 and 128 revision boards. Get rid of that shadow, fuzzy images and remove the jailbars. New 1.1 version simplifies the mod required to remove the jailbars with a new mod for the board running form a socket that the VICII slots in to.  https://www.tindie.com/products/theretrochannel/rfoff-commodore-64-and-128-v11/  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYOJ08FkRaE  Cody - https://www.brewotaku.com/category/issues/  Eric - FlippyDrive - Quick Update: Firmware, Shipping, and What's Coming Next | Crowd Supply  https://www.crowdsupply.com/team-offbroadway/flippydrive/updates/quick-update-firmware-shipping-and-whats-coming-next  Cody – More Atari Physical Games! https://atari.com/collections/7800?srsltid=AfmBOoo0CHNSiLeSc15cDCWtGs7i8oyGuBkMbXPgqvHnWrO9WsO_QPI1  Cody - https://www.retronews.com/flea-and-flea-2-released-on-ngage/  Tim – Legend of Zelda sneakers?! - Bull Airs' new sneakers (trainers) that are Legend of Zelda themed at crazy collector prices!  https://www.bullairs.com/product-page/l-o-z-customer-sb-dunk-themed-low-top  CODY - https://www.retronews.com/homebrew-factory-claim-a-revolution-for-retro-gamers/  Eric - Far Cry 3 Reborn is the remaster we've been waiting on - PC - GAMINGbible  https://www.gamingbible.com/news/platform/pc/far-cry-3-reborn-remaster-405163-20250327  Eric - Unlocking Achievements on the NES - Hackster.io  https://www.hackster.io/news/unlocking-achievements-on-the-nes-549dede0e20f  Cody -  https://www.timeextension.com/news/2025/04/microsoft-created-a-demo-of-quake-ii-using-ai-and-its-gone-about-as-well-as-youd-expect  Eric - Handmade Trinitron-style retro monitors - Boing Boing  https://boingboing.net/2025/03/30/handmade-trinitron-style-retro-monitors.html  Eric - Recade Wants To Be Netflix For Arcade Games, But It Needs Your Help | Time Extension  https://www.timeextension.com/news/2025/04/recade-wants-to-be-netflix-for-arcade-games-but-it-needs-your-help  Please give us a review on Apple Podcasts! Thanks for listening! You can always reach us at podcast@pixelgaiden.com. Send us an email if we missed anything in the show notes you need. You can now support us on Patreon.  Thank you to Henrik Ladefoged, Roy Fielding, Matthew Ackerman, Josh Malone, Daniel James, 10MARC, Eric Sandgren, Brian Arsenault, Retro Gamer Nation, Maciej Sosnowski, Paradroyd, RAM OK ROM OK, Mitsoyama, David Vincent, Ant Stiller, Mr. Toast, Jason Holland, Mark Scott, Vicky Lamburn, Mark Richardson, Scott Partelow, Paul Jacobson, Steve Rasmussen, Steve Rasmussen's Mom, Retro Gamer Nation, Peter Price, Brett Alexander, Jason Warnes, Josh Malone (48kram), AndrewSan, and Adam from Commodore Chronicles for making this show possible through their generous donation to the show.   Support our sponsor Retro Rewind for all of your Commodore needs! Use our page at https://retrorewind.ca/pixelgaiden and our discount code PG10 for 10%  

The full schedule for Latent Space LIVE! at NeurIPS has been announced, featuring Best of 2024 overview talks for the AI Startup Landscape, Computer Vision, Open Models, Transformers Killers, Synthetic Data, Agents, and Scaling, and speakers from Sarah Guo of Conviction, Roboflow, AI2/Meta, Recursal/Together, HuggingFace, OpenHands and SemiAnalysis. Join us for the IRL event/Livestream! Alessio will also be holding a meetup at AWS Re:Invent in Las Vegas this Wednesday. See our new Events page for dates of AI Engineer Summit, Singapore, and World's Fair in 2025. LAST CALL for questions for our big 2024 recap episode! Submit questions and messages on Speakpipe here for a chance to appear on the show!When we first observed that GPT Wrappers are Good, Actually, we did not even have Bolt on our radar. Since we recorded our Anthropic episode discussing building Agents with the new Claude 3.5 Sonnet, Bolt.new (by Stackblitz) has easily cleared the $8m ARR bar, repeating and accelerating its initial $4m feat.There are very many AI code generators and VS Code forks out there, but Bolt probably broke through initially because of its incredible zero shot low effort app generation:But as we explain in the pod, Bolt also emphasized deploy (Netlify)/ backend (Supabase)/ fullstack capabilities on top of Stackblitz's existing WebContainer full-WASM-powered-developer-environment-in-the-browser tech. Since then, the team has been shipping like mad (with weekly office hours), with bugfixing, full screen, multi-device, long context, diff based edits (using speculative decoding like we covered in Inference, Fast and Slow).All of this has captured the imagination of low/no code builders like Greg Isenberg and many others on YouTube/TikTok/Reddit/X/Linkedin etc:Just as with Fireworks, our relationship with Bolt/Stackblitz goes a bit deeper than normal - swyx advised the launch and got a front row seat to this epic journey, as well as demoed it with Realtime Voice at the recent OpenAI Dev Day. So we are very proud to be the first/closest to tell the full open story of Bolt/Stackblitz!Flow Engineering + Qodo/AlphaCodium UpdateIn year 2 of the pod we have been on a roll getting former guests to return as guest cohosts (Harrison Chase, Aman Sanger, Jon Frankle), and it was a pleasure to catch Itamar Friedman back on the pod, giving us an update on all things Qodo and Testing Agents from our last catchup a year and a half ago:Qodo (they renamed in September) went viral in early January this year with AlphaCodium (paper here, code here) beating DeepMind's AlphaCode with high efficiency:With a simple problem solving code agent:* The first step is to have the model reason about the problem. They describe it using bullet points and focus on the goal, inputs, outputs, rules, constraints, and any other relevant details.* Then, they make the model reason about the public tests and come up with an explanation of why the input leads to that particular output. * The model generates two to three potential solutions in text and ranks them in terms of correctness, simplicity, and robustness. * Then, it generates more diverse tests for the problem, covering cases not part of the original public tests. * Iteratively, pick a solution, generate the code, and run it on a few test cases. * If the tests fail, improve the code and repeat the process until the code passes every test.swyx has previously written similar thoughts on types vs tests for putting bounds on program behavior, but AlphaCodium extends this to AI generated tests and code.More recently, Itamar has also shown that AlphaCodium's techniques also extend well to the o1 models:Making Flow Engineering a useful technique to improve code model performance on every model. This is something we see AI Engineers uniquely well positioned to do compared to ML Engineers/Researchers.Full Video PodcastLike and subscribe!Show Notes* Itamar* Qodo* First episode* Eric* Bolt* StackBlitz* Thinkster* AlphaCodium* WebContainersChapters* 00:00:00 Introductions & Updates* 00:06:01 Generic vs. Specific AI Agents* 00:07:40 Maintaining vs Creating with AI* 00:17:46 Human vs Agent Computer Interfaces* 00:20:15 Why Docker doesn't work for Bolt* 00:24:23 Creating Testing and Code Review Loops* 00:28:07 Bolt's Task Breakdown Flow* 00:31:04 AI in Complex Enterprise Environments* 00:41:43 AlphaCodium* 00:44:39 Strategies for Breaking Down Complex Tasks* 00:45:22 Building in Open Source* 00:50:35 Choosing a product as a founder* 00:59:03 Reflections on Bolt Success* 01:06:07 Building a B2C GTM* 01:18:11 AI Capabilities and Pricing Tiers* 01:20:28 What makes Bolt unique* 01:23:07 Future Growth and Product Development* 01:29:06 Competitive Landscape in AI Engineering* 01:30:01 Advice to Founders and Embracing AI* 01:32:20 Having a baby and completing an Iron ManTranscriptAlessio [00:00:00]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol.ai.Swyx [00:00:12]: Hey, and today we're still in our sort of makeshift in-between studio, but we're very delighted to have a former returning guest host, Itamar. Welcome back.Itamar [00:00:21]: Great to be here after a year or more. Yeah, a year and a half.Swyx [00:00:24]: You're one of our earliest guests on Agents. Now you're CEO co-founder of Kodo. Right. Which has just been renamed. You also raised a $40 million Series A, and we can get caught up on everything, but we're also delighted to have our new guest, Eric. Welcome.Eric [00:00:42]: Thank you. Excited to be here. Should I say Bolt or StackBlitz?Swyx [00:00:45]: Like, is it like its own company now or?Eric [00:00:47]: Yeah. Bolt's definitely bolt.new. That's the thing that we're probably the most known for, I imagine, at this point.Swyx [00:00:54]: Which is ridiculous to say because you were working at StackBlitz for so long.Eric [00:00:57]: Yeah. I mean, within a week, we were doing like double the amount of traffic. And StackBlitz had been online for seven years, and we were like, what? But anyways, yeah. So we're StackBlitz, the company behind bolt.new. If you've heard of bolt.new, that's our stuff. Yeah.Swyx [00:01:12]: Yeah.Itamar [00:01:13]: Excellent. I see, by the way, that the founder mode, you need to know to capture opportunities. So kudos on doing that, right? You're working on some technology, and then suddenly you can exploit that to a new world. Yeah.Eric [00:01:24]: Totally. And I think, well, not to jump, but 100%, I mean, a couple of months ago, we had the idea for Bolt earlier this year, but we haven't really shared this too much publicly. But we actually had tried to build it with some of those state-of-the-art models back in January, February, you can kind of imagine which, and they just weren't good enough to actually do the code generation where the code was accurate and it was fast and whatever have you without a ton of like rag, but then there was like issues with that. So we put it on the shelf and then we got kind of a sneak peek of some of the new models that have come out in the past couple of months now. And so once we saw that, once we actually saw the code gen from it, we were like, oh my God, like, okay, we can build a product around this. And so that was really the impetus of us building the thing. But with that, it was StackBlitz, the core StackBlitz product the past seven years has been an IDE for developers. So the entire user experience flow we've built up just didn't make sense. And so when we kind of went out to build Bolt, we just thought, you know, if we were inventing our product today, what would the interface look like given what is now possible with the AI code gen? And so there's definitely a lot of conversations we had internally, but you know, just kind of when we logically laid it out, we were like, yeah, I think it makes sense to just greenfield a new thing and let's see what happens. If it works great, then we'll figure it out. If it doesn't work great, then it'll get deleted at some point. So that's kind of how it actually came to be.Swyx [00:02:49]: I'll mention your background a little bit. You were also founder of Thinkster before you started StackBlitz. So both of you are second time founders. Both of you have sort of re-founded your company recently. Yours was more of a rename. I think a slightly different direction as well. And then we can talk about both. Maybe just chronologically, should we get caught up on where Kodo is first and then you know, just like what people should know since the last pod? Sure.Itamar [00:03:12]: The last pod was two months after we launched and we basically had the vision that we talked about. The idea that software development is about specification, test and code, etc. We are more on the testing part as in essence, we think that if you solve testing, you solve software development. The beautiful chart that we'll put up on screen. And testing is a really big field, like there are many dimensions, unit testing, the level of the component, how big it is, how large it is. And then there is like different type of testing, is it regression or smoke or whatever. So back then we only had like one ID extension with unit tests as in focus. One and a half year later, first ID extension supports more type of testing as context aware. We index local, local repos, but also 10,000s of repos for Fortune 500 companies. We have another agent, another tool that is called, the pure agent is the open source and the commercial one is CodoMerge. And then we have another open source called CoverAgent, which is not yet a commercial product coming very soon. It's very impressive. It could be that already people are approving automated pull requests that they don't even aware in really big open sources. So once we have enough of these, we will also launch another agent. So for the first one and a half year, what we did is grew in our offering and mostly on the side of, does this code actually works, testing, code review, et cetera. And we believe that's the critical milestone that needs to be achieved to actually have the AI engineer for enterprise software. And then like for the first year was everything bottom up, getting to 1 million installation. 2024, that was 2023, 2024 was starting to monetize, to feel like how it is to make the first buck. So we did the teams offering, it went well with a thousand of teams, et cetera. And then we started like just a few months ago to do enterprise with everything you need, which is a lot of things that discussed in the last post that was just released by Codelm. So that's how we call it at Codelm. Just opening the brackets, our company name was Codelm AI, and we renamed to Codo and we call our models Codelm. So back to my point, so we started Enterprise Motion and already have multiple Fortune 100 companies. And then with that, we raised a series of $40 million. And what's exciting about it is that enables us to develop more agents. That's our focus. I think it's very different. We're not coming very soon with an ID or something like that.Swyx [00:06:01]: You don't want to fork this code?Itamar [00:06:03]: Maybe we'll fork JetBrains or something just to be different.Swyx [00:06:08]: I noticed that, you know, I think the promise of general purpose agents has kind of died. Like everyone is doing kind of what you're doing. There's Codogen, Codomerge, and then there's a third one. What's the name of it?Itamar [00:06:17]: Yeah. Codocover. Cover. Which is like a commercial version of a cover agent. It's coming soon.Swyx [00:06:23]: Yeah. It's very similar with factory AI, also doing like droids. They all have special purpose doing things, but people don't really want general purpose agents. Right. The last time you were here, we talked about AutoGBT, the biggest thing of 2023. This year, not really relevant anymore. And I think it's mostly just because when you give me a general purpose agent, I don't know what to do with it.Eric [00:06:42]: Yeah.Itamar [00:06:43]: I totally agree with that. We're seeing it for a while and I think it will stay like that despite the computer use, et cetera, that supposedly can just replace us. You can just like prompt it to be, hey, now be a QA or be a QA person or a developer. I still think that there's a few reasons why you see like a dedicated agent. Again, I'm a bit more focused, like my head is more on complex software for big teams and enterprise, et cetera. And even think about permissions and what are the data sources and just the same way you manage permissions for users. Developers, you probably want to have dedicated guardrails and dedicated approvals for agents. I intentionally like touched a point on not many people think about. And of course, then what you can think of, like maybe there's different tools, tool use, et cetera. But just the first point by itself is a good reason why you want to have different agents.Alessio [00:07:40]: Just to compare that with Bot.new, you're almost focused on like the application is very complex and now you need better tools to kind of manage it and build on top of it. On Bot.new, it's almost like I was using it the other day. There's basically like, hey, look, I'm just trying to get started. You know, I'm not very opinionated on like how you're going to implement this. Like this is what I want to do. And you build a beautiful app with it. What people ask as the next step, you know, going back to like the general versus like specific, have you had people say, hey, you know, this is great to start, but then I want a specific Bot.new dot whatever else to do a more vertical integration and kind of like development or what's the, what do people say?Eric [00:08:18]: Yeah. I think, I think you kind of hit the, hit it head on, which is, you know, kind of the way that we've, we've kind of talked about internally is it's like people are using Bolt to go from like 0.0 to 1.0, like that's like kind of the biggest unlock that Bolt has versus most other things out there. I mean, I think that's kind of what's, what's very unique about Bolt. I think the, you know, the working on like existing enterprise applications is, I mean, it's crazy important because, you know, there's a, you look, when you look at the fortune 500, I mean, these code bases, some of these have been around for 20, 30 plus years. And so it's important to be going from, you know, 101.3 to 101.4, et cetera. I think for us, so what's been actually pretty interesting is we see there's kind of two different users for us that are coming in and it's very distinct. It's like people that are developers already. And then there's people that have never really written software and more if they have, it's been very, very minimal. And so in the first camp, what these developers are doing, like to go from zero to one, they're coming to Bolt and then they're ejecting the thing to get up or just downloading it and, you know, opening cursor, like whatever to, to, you know, keep iterating on the thing. And sometimes they'll bring it back to Bolt to like add in a huge piece of functionality or something. Right. But for the people that don't know how to code, they're actually just, they, they live in this thing. And that was one of the weird things when we launched is, you know, within a day of us being online, one of the most popular YouTube videos, and there's been a ton since, which was, you know, there's like, oh, Bolt is the cursor killer. And I originally saw the headlines and I was like, thanks for the views. I mean, I don't know. This doesn't make sense to me. That's not, that's not what we kind of thought.Swyx [00:09:44]: It's how YouTubers talk to each other. Well, everything kills everything else.Eric [00:09:47]: Totally. But what blew my mind was that there was any comparison because it's like cursor is a, is a local IDE product. But when, when we actually kind of dug into it and we, and we have people that are using our product saying this, I'm not using cursor. And I was like, what? And it turns out there are hundreds of thousands of people that we have seen that we're using cursor and we're trying to build apps with that where they're not traditional software does, but we're heavily leaning on the AI. And as you can imagine, it is very complicated, right? To do that with cursor. So when Bolt came out, they're like, wow, this thing's amazing because it kind of inverts the complexity where it's like, you know, it's not an IDE, it's, it's a, it's a chat-based sort of interface that we have. So that's kind of the split, which is rather interesting. We've had like the first startups now launch off of Bolt entirely where this, you know, tomorrow I'm doing a live stream with this guy named Paul, who he's built an entire CRM using this thing and you know, with backend, et cetera. And people have made their first money on the internet period, you know, launching this with Stripe or whatever have you. So that's, that's kind of the two main, the two main categories of folks that we see using Bolt though.Itamar [00:10:51]: I agree that I don't understand the comparison. It doesn't make sense to me. I think like we have like two type of families of tools. One is like we re-imagine the software development. I think Bolt is there and I think like a cursor is more like a evolution of what we already have. It's like taking the IDE and it's, it's amazing and it's okay, let's, let's adapt the IDE to an era where LLMs can do a lot for us. And Bolt is more like, okay, let's rethink everything totally. And I think we see a few tools there, like maybe Vercel, Veo and maybe Repl.it in that area. And then in the area of let's expedite, let's change, let's, let's progress with what we already have. You can see Cursor and Kodo, but we're different between ourselves, Cursor and Kodo, but definitely I think that comparison doesn't make sense.Alessio [00:11:42]: And just to set the context, this is not a Twitter demo. You've made 4 million of revenue in four weeks. So this is, this is actually working, you know, it's not a, what, what do you think that is? Like, there's been so many people demoing coding agents on Twitter and then it doesn't really work. And then you guys were just like, here you go, it's live, go use it, pay us for it. You know, is there anything in the development that was like interesting and maybe how that compares to building your own agents?Eric [00:12:08]: We had no idea, honestly, like we, we, we've been pretty blown away and, and things have just kind of continued to grow faster since then. We're like, oh, today is week six. So I, I kind of came back to the point you just made, right, where it's, you, you kind of outlined, it's like, there's kind of this new market of like kind of rethinking the software development and then there's heavily augmenting existing developers. I think that, you know, both of which are, you know, AI code gen being extremely good, it's allowed existing developers, it's allowing existing developers to camera out software far faster than they could have ever before, right? It's like the ultimate power tool for an existing developer. But this code gen stuff is now so good. And then, and we saw this over the past, you know, from the beginning of the year when we tried to first build, it's actually lowered the barrier to people that, that aren't traditionally software engineers. But the kind of the key thing is if you kind of think about it from, imagine you've never written software before, right? My co-founder and I, he and I grew up down the street from each other in Chicago. We learned how to code when we were 13 together and we've been building stuff ever since. And this is back in like the mid 2000s or whatever, you know, there was nothing for free to learn from online on the internet and how to code. For our 13th birthdays, we asked our parents for, you know, O'Reilly books cause you couldn't get this at the library, right? And so instead of like an Xbox, we got, you know, programming books. But the hardest part for everyone learning to code is getting an environment set up locally, you know? And so when we built StackBlitz, like kind of the key thesis, like seven years ago, the insight we had was that, Hey, it seems like the browser has a lot of new APIs like WebAssembly and service workers, et cetera, where you could actually write an operating system that ran inside the browser that could boot in milliseconds. And you, you know, basically there's this missing capability of the web. Like the web should be able to build apps for the web, right? You should be able to build the web on the web. Every other platform has that, Visual Studio for Windows, Xcode for Mac. The web has no built in primitive for this. And so just like our built in kind of like nerd instinct on this was like, that seems like a huge hole and it's, you know, it will be very valuable or like, you know, very valuable problem to solve. So if you want to set up that environments, you know, this is what we spent the past seven years doing. And the reality is existing developers have running locally. They already know how to set up that environment. So the problem isn't as acute for them. When we put Bolt online, we took that technology called WebContainer and married it with these, you know, state of the art frontier models. And the people that have the most pain with getting stuff set up locally is people that don't code. I think that's been, you know, really the big explosive reason is no one else has been trying to make dev environments work inside of a browser tab, you know, for the past if since ever, other than basically our company, largely because there wasn't an immediate demand or need. So I think we kind of find ourselves at the right place at the right time. And again, for this market of people that don't know how to write software, you would kind of expect that you should be able to do this without downloading something to your computer in the same way that, hey, I don't have to download Photoshop now to make designs because there's Figma. I don't have to download Word because there's, you know, Google Docs. They're kind of looking at this as that sort of thing, right? Which was kind of the, you know, our impetus and kind of vision from the get-go. But you know, the code gen, the AI code gen stuff that's come out has just been, you know, an order of magnitude multiplier on how magic that is, right? So that's kind of my best distillation of like, what is going on here, you know?Alessio [00:15:21]: And you can deploy too, right?Eric [00:15:22]: Yeah.Alessio [00:15:23]: Yeah.Eric [00:15:24]: And so that's, what's really cool is it's, you know, we have deployment built in with Netlify and this is actually, I think, Sean, you actually built this at Netlify when you were there. Yeah. It's one of the most brilliant integrations actually, because, you know, effectively the API that Sean built, maybe you can speak to it, but like as a provider, we can just effectively give files to Netlify without the user even logging in and they have a live website. And if they want to keep, hold onto it, they can click a link and claim it to their Netlify account. But it basically is just this really magic experience because when you come to Bolt, you say, I want a website. Like my mom, 70, 71 years old, made her first website, you know, on the internet two weeks ago, right? It was about her nursing days.Swyx [00:16:03]: Oh, that's fantastic though. It wouldn't have been made.Eric [00:16:06]: A hundred percent. Cause even in, you know, when we've had a lot of people building personal, like deeply personal stuff, like in the first week we launched this, the sales guy from the East Coast, you know, replied to a tweet of mine and he said, thank you so much for building this to your team. His daughter has a medical condition and so for her to travel, she has to like line up donors or something, you know, so ahead of time. And so he actually used Bolt to make a website to do that, to actually go and send it to folks in the region she was going to travel to ahead of time. I was really touched by it, but I also thought like, why, you know, why didn't he use like Wix or Squarespace? Right? I mean, this is, this is a solved problem, quote unquote, right? And then when I thought, I actually use Squarespace for my, for my, uh, the wedding website for my wife and I, like back in 2021, so I'm familiar, you know, it was, it was faster. I know how to code. I was like, this is faster. Right. And I thought back and I was like, there's a whole interface you have to learn how to use. And it's actually not that simple. There's like a million things you can configure in that thing. When you come to Bolt, there's a, there's a text box. You just say, I need a, I need a wedding website. Here's the date. Here's where it is. And here's a photo of me and my wife, put it somewhere relevant. It's actually the simplest way. And that's what my, when my mom came, she said, uh, I'm Pat Simons. I was a nurse in the seventies, you know, and like, here's the things I did and a website came out. So coming back to why is this such a, I think, why are we seeing this sort of growth? It's, this is the simplest interface I think maybe ever created to actually build it, a deploy a website. And then that website, my mom made, she's like, okay, this looks great. And there's, there's one button, you just click it, deploy, and it's live and you can buy a domain name, attach it to it. And you know, it's as simple as it gets, it's getting even simpler with some of the stuff we're working on. But anyways, so that's, it's, it's, uh, it's been really interesting to see some of the usage like that.Swyx [00:17:46]: I can offer my perspective. So I, you know, I probably should have disclosed a little bit that, uh, I'm a, uh, stack list investor.Alessio [00:17:53]: Canceled the episode. I know, I know. Don't play it now. Pause.Eric actually reached out to ShowMeBolt before the launch. And we, you know, we talked a lot about, like, the framing of, of what we're going to talk about how we marketed the thing, but also, like, what we're So that's what Bolt was going to need, like a whole sort of infrastructure.swyx: Netlify, I was a maintainer but I won't take claim for the anonymous upload. That's actually the origin story of Netlify. We can have Matt Billman talk about it, but that was [00:18:00] how Netlify started. You could drag and drop your zip file or folder from your desktop onto a website, it would have a live URL with no sign in.swyx: And so that was the origin story of Netlify. And it just persists to today. And it's just like it's really nice, interesting that both Bolt and CognitionDevIn and a bunch of other sort of agent type startups, they all use Netlify to deploy because of this one feature. They don't really care about the other features.swyx: But, but just because it's easy for computers to use and talk to it, like if you build an interface for computers specifically, that it's easy for them to Navigate, then they will be used in agents. And I think that's a learning that a lot of developer tools companies are having. That's my bolt launch story and now if I say all that stuff.swyx: And I just wanted to come back to, like, the Webcontainers things, right? Like, I think you put a lot of weight on the technical modes. I think you also are just like, very good at product. So you've, you've like, built a better agent than a lot of people, the rest of us, including myself, who have tried to build these things, and we didn't get as far as you did.swyx: Don't shortchange yourself on products. But I think specifically [00:19:00] on, on infra, on like the sandboxing, like this is a thing that people really want. Alessio has Bax E2B, which we'll have on at some point, talking about like the sort of the server full side. But yours is, you know, inside of the browser, serverless.swyx: It doesn't cost you anything to serve one person versus a million people. It doesn't, doesn't cost you anything. I think that's interesting. I think in theory, we should be able to like run tests because you can run the full backend. Like, you can run Git, you can run Node, you can run maybe Python someday.swyx: We talked about this. But ideally, you should be able to have a fully gentic loop, running code, seeing the errors, correcting code, and just kind of self healing, right? Like, I mean, isn't that the dream?Eric: Totally.swyx: Yeah,Eric: totally. At least in bold, we've got, we've got a good amount of that today. I mean, there's a lot more for us to do, but one of the nice things, because like in web container, you know, there's a lot of kind of stuff you go Google like, you know, turn docker container into wasm.Eric: You'll find a lot of stuff out there that will do that. The problem is it's very big, it's slow, and that ruins the experience. And so what we ended up doing is just writing an operating system from [00:20:00] scratch that was just purpose built to, you know, run in a browser tab. And the reason being is, you know, Docker 2 awesome things will give you an image that's like out 60 to 100 megabits, you know, maybe more, you know, and our, our OS, you know, kind of clocks in, I think, I think we're in like a, maybe, maybe a megabyte or less or something like that.Eric: I mean, it's, it's, you know, really, really, you know, stripped down.swyx: This is basically the task involved is I understand that it's. Mapping every single, single Linux call to some kind of web, web assembly implementation,Eric: but more or less, and, and then there's a lot of things actually, like when you're looking at a dev environment, there's a lot of things that you don't need that a traditional OS is gonna have, right?Eric: Like, you know audio drivers or you like, there's just like, there's just tons of things. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. That goes . Yeah. You can just kind, you can, you can kind of tos them. Or alternatively, what you can do is you can actually be the nice thing. And this is, this kind of comes back to the origins of browsers, which is, you know, they're, they're at the beginning of the web and, you know, the late nineties, there was two very different kind of visions for the web where Alan Kay vehemently [00:21:00] disagree with the idea that should be document based, which is, you know, Tim Berners Lee, you know, that, and that's kind of what ended up winning, winning was this document based kind of browsing documents on the web thing.Eric: Alan Kay, he's got this like very famous quote where he said, you know, you want web browsers to be mini operating systems. They should download little mini binaries and execute with like a little mini virtualized operating system in there. And what's kind of interesting about the history, not to geek out on this aspect, what's kind of interesting about the history is both of those folks ended up being right.Eric: Documents were actually the pragmatic way that the web worked. Was, you know, became the most ubiquitous platform in the world to the degree now that this is why WebAssembly has been invented is that we're doing, we need to do more low level things in a browser, same thing with WebGPU, et cetera. And so all these APIs, you know, to build an operating system came to the browser.Eric: And that was actually the realization we had in 2017 was, holy heck, like you can actually, you know, service workers, which were designed for allowing your app to work offline. That was the kind of the key one where it was like, wait a second, you can actually now run. Web servers within a [00:22:00] browser, like you can run a server that you open up.Eric: That's wild. Like full Node. js. Full Node. js. Like that capability. Like, I can have a URL that's programmatically controlled. By a web application itself, boom. Like the web can build the web. The primitive is there. Everyone at the time, like we talked to people that like worked on, you know Chrome and V8 and they were like, uhhhh.Eric: You know, like I don't know. But it's one of those things you just kind of have to go do it to find out. So we spent a couple of years, you know, working on it and yeah. And, and, and got to work in back in 2021 is when we kind of put the first like data of web container online. Butswyx: in partnership with Google, right?swyx: Like Google actually had to help you get over the finish line with stuff.Eric: A hundred percent, because well, you know, over the years of when we were doing the R and D on the thing. Kind of the biggest challenge, the two ways that you can kind of test how powerful and capable a platform are, the two types of applications are one, video games, right, because they're just very compute intensive, a lot of calculations that have to happen, right?Eric: The second one are IDEs, because you're talking about actually virtualizing the actual [00:23:00] runtime environment you are in to actually build apps on top of it, which requires sophisticated capabilities, a lot of access to data. You know, a good amount of compute power, right, to effectively, you know, building app in app sort of thing.Eric: So those, those are the stress tests. So if your platform is missing stuff, those are the things where you find out. Those are, those are the people building games and IDEs. They're the ones filing bugs on operating system level stuff. And for us, browser level stuff.Eric [00:23:47]: yeah, what ended up happening is we were just hammering, you know, the Chromium bug tracker, and they're like, who are these guys? Yeah. And, and they were amazing because I mean, just making Chrome DevTools be able to debug, I mean, it's, it's not, it wasn't originally built right for debugging an operating system, right? They've been phenomenal working with us and just kind of really pushing the limits, but that it's a rising tide that's kind of lifted all boats because now there's a lot of different types of applications that you can debug with Chrome Dev Tools that are running a browser that runs more reliably because just the stress testing that, that we and, you know, games that are coming to the web are kind of pushing as well, but.Itamar [00:24:23]: That's awesome. About the testing, I think like most, let's say coding assistant from different kinds will need this loop of testing. And even I would add code review to some, to some extent that you mentioned. How is testing different from code review? Code review could be, for example, PR review, like a code review that is done at the point of when you want to merge branches. But I would say that code review, for example, checks best practices, maintainability, and so on. It's not just like CI, but more than CI. And testing is like a more like checking functionality, et cetera. So it's different. We call, by the way, all of these together code integrity, but that's a different story. Just to go back to the, to the testing and specifically. Yeah. It's, it's, it's since the first slide. Yeah. We're consistent. So if we go back to the testing, I think like, it's not surprising that for us testing is important and for Bolt it's testing important, but I want to shed some light on a different perspective of it. Like let's think about autonomous driving. Those startups that are doing autonomous driving for highway and autonomous driving for the city. And I think like we saw the autonomous of the highway much faster and reaching to a level, I don't know, four or so much faster than those in the city. Now, in both cases, you need testing and quote unquote testing, you know, verifying validation that you're doing the right thing on the road and you're reading and et cetera. But it's probably like so different in the city that it could be like actually different technology. And I claim that we're seeing something similar here. So when you're building the next Wix, and if I was them, I was like looking at you and being a bit scared. That's what you're disrupting, what you just said. Then basically, I would say that, for example, the UX UI is freaking important. And because you're you're more aiming for the end user. In this case, maybe it's an end user that doesn't know how to develop for developers. It's also important. But let alone those that do not know to develop, they need a slick UI UX. And I think like that's one reason, for example, I think Cursor have like really good technology. I don't know the underlying what's under the hood, but at least what they're saying. But I think also their UX UI is great. It's a lot because they did their own ID. While if you're aiming for the city AI, suddenly like there's a lot of testing and code review technology that it's not necessarily like that important. For example, let's talk about integration tests. Probably like a lot of what you're building involved at the moment is isolated applications. Maybe the vision or the end game is maybe like having one solution for everything. It could be that eventually the highway companies will go into the city and the other way around. But at the beginning, there is a difference. And integration tests are a good example. I guess they're a bit less important. And when you think about enterprise software, they're really important. So to recap, like I think like the idea of looping and verifying your test and verifying your code in different ways, testing or code review, et cetera, seems to be important in the highway AI and the city AI, but in different ways and different like critical for the city, even more and more variety. Actually, I was looking to ask you like what kind of loops you guys are doing. For example, when I'm using Bolt and I'm enjoying it a lot, then I do see like sometimes you're trying to catch the errors and fix them. And also, I noticed that you're breaking down tasks into smaller ones and then et cetera, which is already a common notion for a year ago. But it seems like you're doing it really well. So if you're willing to share anything about it.Eric [00:28:07]: Yeah, yeah. I realized I never actually hit the punchline of what I was saying before. I mentioned the point about us kind of writing an operating system from scratch because what ended up being important about that is that to your point, it's actually a very, like compared to like a, you know, if you're like running cursor on anyone's machine, you kind of don't know what you're dealing with, with the OS you're running on. There could be an error happens. It could be like a million different things, right? There could be some config. There could be, it could be God knows what, right? The thing with WebConnect is because we wrote the entire thing from scratch. It's actually a unified image basically. And we can instrument it at any level that we think is going to be useful, which is exactly what we did when we started building Bolt is we instrumented stuff at like the process level, at the runtime level, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Stuff that would just be not impossible to do on local, but to do that in a way that works across any operating system, whatever is, I mean, would just be insanely, you know, insanely difficult to do right and reliably. And that's what you saw when you've used Bolt is that when an error actually will occur, whether it's in the build process or the actual web application itself is failing or anything kind of in between, you can actually capture those errors. And today it's a very primitive way of how we've implemented it largely because the product just didn't exist 90 days ago. So we're like, we got some work ahead of us and we got to hire some more a little bit, but basically we present and we say, Hey, this is, here's kind of the things that went wrong. There's a fix it button and then a ignore button, and then you can just hit fix it. And then we take all that telemetry through our agent, you run it through our agent and say, kind of, here's the state of the application. Here's kind of the errors that we got from Node.js or the browser or whatever, and like dah, dah, dah, dah. And it can take a crack at actually solving it. And it's actually pretty darn good at being able to do that. That's kind of been a, you know, closing the loop and having it be a reliable kind of base has seemed to be a pretty big upgrade over doing stuff locally, just because I think that's a pretty key ingredient of it. And yeah, I think breaking things down into smaller tasks, like that's, that's kind of a key part of our agent. I think like Claude did a really good job with artifacts. I think, you know, us and kind of everyone else has, has kind of taken their approach of like actually breaking out certain tasks in a certain order into, you know, kind of a concrete way. And, and so actually the core of Bolt, I know we actually made open source. So you can actually go and check out like the system prompts and et cetera, and you can run it locally and whatever have you. So anyone that's interested in this stuff, I'd highly recommend taking a look at. There's not a lot of like stuff that's like open source in this realm. It's, that was one of the fun things that we've we thought would be cool to do. And people, people seem to like it. I mean, there's a lot of forks and people adding different models and stuff. So it's been cool to see.Swyx [00:30:41]: Yeah. I'm happy to add, I added real-time voice for my opening day demo and it was really fun to hack with. So thank you for doing that. Yeah. Thank you. I'm going to steal your code.Eric [00:30:52]: Because I want that.Swyx [00:30:52]: It's funny because I built on top of the fork of Bolt.new that already has the multi LLM thing. And so you just told me you're going to merge that in. So then you're going to merge two layers of forks down into this thing. So it'll be fun.Eric [00:31:03]: Heck yeah.Alessio [00:31:04]: Just to touch on like the environment, Itamar, you maybe go into the most complicated environments that even the people that work there don't know how to run. How much of an impact does that have on your performance? Like, you know, it's most of the work you're doing actually figuring out environment and like the libraries, because I'm sure they're using outdated version of languages, they're using outdated libraries, they're using forks that have not been on the public internet before. How much of the work that you're doing is like there versus like at the LLM level?Itamar [00:31:32]: One of the reasons I was asking about, you know, what are the steps to break things down, because it really matters. Like, what's the tech stack? How complicated the software is? It's hard to figure it out when you're dealing with the real world, any environment of enterprise as a city, when I'm like, while maybe sometimes like, I think you do enable like in Bolt, like to install stuff, but it's quite a like controlled environment. And that's a good thing to do, because then you narrow down and it's easier to make things work. So definitely, there are two dimensions, I think, actually spaces. One is the fact just like installing our software without yet like doing anything, making it work, just installing it because we work with enterprise and Fortune 500, etc. Many of them want on prem solution.Swyx [00:32:22]: So you have how many deployment options?Itamar [00:32:24]: Basically, we had, we did a metric metrics, say 96 options, because, you know, they're different dimensions. Like, for example, one dimension, we connect to your code management system to your Git. So are you having like GitHub, GitLab? Subversion? Is it like on cloud or deployed on prem? Just an example. Which model agree to use its APIs or ours? Like we have our Is it TestGPT? Yeah, when we started with TestGPT, it was a huge mistake name. It was cool back then, but I don't think it's a good idea to name a model after someone else's model. Anyway, that's my opinion. So we gotSwyx [00:33:02]: I'm interested in these learnings, like things that you change your mind on.Itamar [00:33:06]: Eventually, when you're building a company, you're building a brand and you want to create your own brand. By the way, when I thought about Bolt.new, I also thought about if it's not a problem, because when I think about Bolt, I do think about like a couple of companies that are already called this way.Swyx [00:33:19]: Curse companies. You could call it Codium just to...Itamar [00:33:24]: Okay, thank you. Touche. Touche.Eric [00:33:27]: Yeah, you got to imagine the board meeting before we launched Bolt, one of our investors, you can imagine they're like, are you sure? Because from the investment side, it's kind of a famous, very notorious Bolt. And they're like, are you sure you want to go with that name? Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.Itamar [00:33:43]: At this point, we have actually four models. There is a model for autocomplete. There's a model for the chat. There is a model dedicated for more for code review. And there is a model that is for code embedding. Actually, you might notice that there isn't a good code embedding model out there. Can you name one? Like dedicated for code?Swyx [00:34:04]: There's code indexing, and then you can do sort of like the hide for code. And then you can embed the descriptions of the code.Itamar [00:34:12]: Yeah, but you do see a lot of type of models that are dedicated for embedding and for different spaces, different fields, etc. And I'm not aware. And I know that if you go to the bedrock, try to find like there's a few code embedding models, but none of them are specialized for code.Swyx [00:34:31]: Is there a benchmark that you would tell us to pay attention to?Itamar [00:34:34]: Yeah, so it's coming. Wait for that. Anyway, we have our models. And just to go back to the 96 option of deployment. So I'm closing the brackets for us. So one is like dimensional, like what Git deployment you have, like what models do you agree to use? Dotter could be like if it's air-gapped completely, or you want VPC, and then you have Azure, GCP, and AWS, which is different. Do you use Kubernetes or do not? Because we want to exploit that. There are companies that do not do that, etc. I guess you know what I mean. So that's one thing. And considering that we are dealing with one of all four enterprises, we needed to deal with that. So you asked me about how complicated it is to solve that complex code. I said, it's just a deployment part. And then now to the software, we see a lot of different challenges. For example, some companies, they did actually a good job to build a lot of microservices. Let's not get to if it's good or not, but let's first assume that it is a good thing. A lot of microservices, each one of them has their own repo. And now you have tens of thousands of repos. And you as a developer want to develop something. And I remember me coming to a corporate for the first time. I don't know where to look at, like where to find things. So just doing a good indexing for that is like a challenge. And moreover, the regular indexing, the one that you can find, we wrote a few blogs on that. By the way, we also have some open source, different than yours, but actually three and growing. Then it doesn't work. You need to let the tech leads and the companies influence your indexing. For example, Mark with different repos with different colors. This is a high quality repo. This is a lower quality repo. This is a repo that we want to deprecate. This is a repo we want to grow, etc. And let that be part of your indexing. And only then things actually work for enterprise and they don't get to a fatigue of, oh, this is awesome. Oh, but I'm starting, it's annoying me. I think Copilot is an amazing tool, but I'm quoting others, meaning GitHub Copilot, that they see not so good retention of GitHub Copilot and enterprise. Ooh, spicy. Yeah. I saw snapshots of people and we have customers that are Copilot users as well. And also I saw research, some of them is public by the way, between 38 to 50% retention for users using Copilot and enterprise. So it's not so good. By the way, I don't think it's that bad, but it's not so good. So I think that's a reason because, yeah, it helps you auto-complete, but then, and especially if you're working on your repo alone, but if it's need that context of remote repos that you're code-based, that's hard. So to make things work, there's a lot of work on that, like giving the controllability for the tech leads, for the developer platform or developer experience department in the organization to influence how things are working. A short example, because if you have like really old legacy code, probably some of it is not so good anymore. If you just fine tune on these code base, then there is a bias to repeat those mistakes or old practices, etc. So you need, for example, as I mentioned, to influence that. For example, in Coda, you can have a markdown of best practices by the tech leads and Coda will include that and relate to that and will not offer suggestions that are not according to the best practices, just as an example. So that's just a short list of things that you need to do in order to deal with, like you mentioned, the 100.1 to 100.2 version of software. I just want to say what you're doing is extremelyEric [00:38:32]: impressive because it's very difficult. I mean, the business of Stackplus, kind of before bulk came online, we sold a version of our IDE that went on-prem. So I understand what you're saying about the difficulty of getting stuff just working on-prem. Holy heck. I mean, that is extremely hard. I guess the question I have for you is, I mean, we were just doing that with kind of Kubernetes-based stuff, but the spread of Fortune 500 companies that you're working with, how are they doing the inference for this? Are you kind of plugging into Azure's OpenAI stuff and AWS's Bedrock, you know, Cloud stuff? Or are they just like running stuff on GPUs? Like, what is that? How are these folks approaching that? Because, man, what we saw on the enterprise side, I mean, I got to imagine that that's a huge challenge. Everything you said and more, like,Itamar [00:39:15]: for example, like someone could be, and I don't think any of these is bad. Like, they made their decision. Like, for example, some people, they're, I want only AWS and VPC on AWS, no matter what. And then they, some of them, like there is a subset, I will say, I'm willing to take models only for from Bedrock and not ours. And we have a problem because there is no good code embedding model on Bedrock. And that's part of what we're doing now with AWS to solve that. We solve it in a different way. But if you are willing to run on AWS VPC, but run your run models on GPUs or inferentia, like the new version of the more coming out, then our models can run on that. But everything you said is right. Like, we see like on-prem deployment where they have their own GPUs. We see Azure where you're using OpenAI Azure. We see cases where you're running on GCP and they want OpenAI. Like this cross, like a case, although there is Gemini or even Sonnet, I think is available on GCP, just an example. So all the options, that's part of the challenge. I admit that we thought about it, but it was even more complicated. And it took us a few months to actually, that metrics that I mentioned, to start clicking each one of the blocks there. A few months is impressive. I mean,Eric [00:40:35]: honestly, just that's okay. Every one of these enterprises is, their networking is different. Just everything's different. Every single one is different. I see you understand. Yeah. So that just cannot be understated. That it is, that's extremely impressive. Hats off.Itamar [00:40:50]: It could be, by the way, like, for example, oh, we're only AWS, but our GitHub enterprise is on-prem. Oh, we forgot. So we need like a private link or whatever, like every time like that. It's not, and you do need to think about it if you want to work with an enterprise. And it's important. Like I understand like their, I respect their point of view.Swyx [00:41:10]: And this primarily impacts your architecture, your tech choices. Like you have to, you can't choose some vendors because...Itamar [00:41:15]: Yeah, definitely. To be frank, it makes us hard for a startup because it means that we want, we want everyone to enjoy all the variety of models. By the way, it was hard for us with our technology. I want to open a bracket, like a window. I guess you're familiar with our Alpha Codium, which is an open source.Eric [00:41:33]: We got to go over that. Yeah. So I'll do that quickly.Itamar [00:41:36]: Yeah. A pin in that. Yeah. Actually, we didn't have it in the last episode. So, so, okay.Swyx [00:41:41]: Okay. We'll come back to that later, but let's talk about...Itamar [00:41:43]: Yeah. So, so just like shortly, and then we can double click on Alpha Codium. But Alpha Codium is a open source tool. You can go and try it and lets you compete on CodeForce. This is a website and a competition and actually reach a master level level, like 95% with a click of a button. You don't need to do anything. And part of what we did there is taking a problem and breaking it to different, like smaller blocks. And then the models are doing a much better job. Like we all know it by now that taking small tasks and solving them, by the way, even O1, which is supposed to be able to do system two thinking like Greg from OpenAI like hinted, is doing better on these kinds of problems. But still, it's very useful to break it down for O1, despite O1 being able to think by itself. And that's what we presented like just a month ago, OpenAI released that now they are doing 93 percentile with O1 IOI left and International Olympiad of Formation. Sorry, I forgot. Exactly. I told you I forgot. And we took their O1 preview with Alpha Codium and did better. Like it just shows like, and there is a big difference between the preview and the IOI. It shows like that these models are not still system two thinkers, and there is a big difference. So maybe they're not complete system two. Yeah, they need some guidance. I call them system 1.5. We can, we can have it. I thought about it. Like, you know, I care about this philosophy stuff. And I think like we didn't see it even close to a system two thinking. I can elaborate later. But closing the brackets, like we take Alpha Codium and as our principle of thinking, we take tasks and break them down to smaller tasks. And then we want to exploit the best model to solve them. So I want to enable anyone to enjoy O1 and SONET and Gemini 1.5, etc. But at the same time, I need to develop my own models as well, because some of the Fortune 500 want to have all air gapped or whatever. So that's a challenge. Now you need to support so many models. And to some extent, I would say that the flow engineering, the breaking down to two different blocks is a necessity for us. Why? Because when you take a big block, a big problem, you need a very different prompt for each one of the models to actually work. But when you take a big problem and break it into small tasks, we can talk how we do that, then the prompt matters less. What I want to say, like all this, like as a startup trying to do different deployment, getting all the juice that you can get from models, etc. is a big problem. And one need to think about it. And one of our mitigation is that process of taking tasks and breaking them down. That's why I'm really interested to know how you guys are doing it. And part of what we do is also open source. So you can see.Swyx [00:44:39]: There's a lot in there. But yeah, flow over prompt. I do believe that that does make sense. I feel like there's a lot that both of you can sort of exchange notes on breaking down problems. And I just want you guys to just go for it. This is fun to watch.Eric [00:44:55]: Yeah. I mean, what's super interesting is the context you're working in is, because for us too with Bolt, we've started thinking because our kind of existing business line was going behind the firewall, right? We were like, how do we do this? Adding the inference aspect on, we're like, okay, how does... Because I mean, there's not a lot of prior art, right? I mean, this is all new. This is all new. So I definitely am going to have a lot of questions for you.Itamar [00:45:17]: I'm here. We're very open, by the way. We have a paper on a blog or like whatever.Swyx [00:45:22]: The Alphacodeum, GitHub, and we'll put all this in the show notes.Itamar [00:45:25]: Yeah. And even the new results of O1, we published it.Eric [00:45:29]: I love that. And I also just, I think spiritually, I like your approach of being transparent. Because I think there's a lot of hype-ium around AI stuff. And a lot of it is, it's just like, you have these companies that are just kind of keep their stuff closed source and then just max hype it, but then it's kind of nothing. And I think it kind of gives a bad rep to the incredible stuff that's actually happening here. And so I think it's stuff like what you're doing where, I mean, true merit and you're cracking open actual code for others to learn from and use. That strikes me as the right approach. And it's great to hear that you're making such incredible progress.Itamar [00:46:02]: I have something to share about the open source. Most of our tools are, we have an open source version and then a premium pro version. But it's not an easy decision to do that. I actually wanted to ask you about your strategy, but I think in your case, there is, in my opinion, relatively a good strategy where a lot of parts of open source, but then you have the deployment and the environment, which is not right if I get it correctly. And then there's a clear, almost hugging face model. Yeah, you can do that, but why should you try to deploy it yourself, deploy it with us? But in our case, and I'm not sure you're not going to hit also some competitors, and I guess you are. I wanted to ask you, for example, on some of them. In our case, one day we looked on one of our competitors that is doing code review. We're a platform. We have the code review, the testing, et cetera, spread over the ID to get. And in each agent, we have a few startups or a big incumbents that are doing only that. So we noticed one of our competitors having not only a very similar UI of our open source, but actually even our typo. And you sit there and you're kind of like, yeah, we're not that good. We don't use enough Grammarly or whatever. And we had a couple of these and we saw it there. And then it's a challenge. And I want to ask you, Bald is doing so well, and then you open source it. So I think I know what my answer was. I gave it before, but still interestingEric [00:47:29]: to hear what you think. GeoHot said back, I don't know who he was up to at this exact moment, but I think on comma AI, all that stuff's open source. And someone had asked him, why is this open source? And he's like, if you're not actually confident that you can go and crush it and build the best thing, then yeah, you should probably keep your stuff closed source. He said something akin to that. I'm probably kind of butchering it, but I thought it was kind of a really good point. And that's not to say that you should just open source everything, because for obvious reasons, there's kind of strategic things you have to kind of take in mind. But I actually think a pretty liberal approach, as liberal as you kind of can be, it can really make a lot of sense. Because that is so validating that one of your competitors is taking your stuff and they're like, yeah, let's just kind of tweak the styles. I mean, clearly, right? I think it's kind of healthy because it keeps, I'm sure back at HQ that day when you saw that, you're like, oh, all right, well, we have to grind even harder to make sure we stay ahead. And so I think it's actually a very useful, motivating thing for the teams. Because you might feel this period of comfort. I think a lot of companies will have this period of comfort where they're not feeling the competition and one day they get disrupted. So kind of putting stuff out there and letting people push it forces you to face reality soon, right? And actually feel that incrementally so you can kind of adjust course. And that's for us, the open source version of Bolt has had a lot of features people have been begging us for, like persisting chat messages and checkpoints and stuff. Within the first week, that stuff was landed in the open source versions. And they're like, why can't you ship this? It's in the open, so people have forked it. And we're like, we're trying to keep our servers and GPUs online. But it's been great because the folks in the community did a great job, kept us on our toes. And we've got to know most of these folks too at this point that have been building these things. And so it actually was very instructive. Like, okay, well, if we're going to go kind of land this, there's some UX patterns we can kind of look at and the code is open source to this stuff. What's great about these, what's not. So anyways, NetNet, I think it's awesome. I think from a competitive point of view for us, I think in particular, what's interesting is the core technology of WebContainer going. And I think that right now, there's really nothing that's kind of on par with that. And we also, we have a business of, because WebContainer runs in your browser, but to make it work, you have to install stuff from NPM. You have to make cores bypass requests, like connected databases, which all require server-side proxying or acceleration. And so we actually sell WebContainer as a service. One of the core reasons we open-sourced kind of the core components of Bolt when we launched was that we think that there's going to be a lot more of these AI, in-your-browser AI co-gen experiences, kind of like what Anthropic did with Artifacts and Clod. By the way, Artifacts uses WebContainers. Not yet. No, yeah. Should I strike that? I think that they've got their own thing at the moment, but there's been a lot of interest in WebContainers from folks doing things in that sort of realm and in the AI labs and startups and everything in between. So I think there'll be, I imagine, over the coming months, there'll be lots of things being announced to folks kind of adopting it. But yeah, I think effectively...Swyx [00:50:35]: Okay, I'll say this. If you're a large model lab and you want to build sandbox environments inside of your chat app, you should call Eric.Itamar [00:50:43]: But wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I have a question about that. I think OpenAI, they felt that people are not using their model as they would want to. So they built ChatGPT. But I would say that ChatGPT now defines OpenAI. I know they're doing a lot of business from their APIs, but still, is this how you think? Isn't Bolt.new your business now? Why don't you focus on that instead of the...Swyx [00:51:16]: What's your advice as a founder?Eric [00:51:18]: You're right. And so going into it, we, candidly, we were like, Bolt.new, this thing is super cool. We think people are stoked. We think people will be stoked. But we were like, maybe that's allowed. Best case scenario, after month one, we'd be mind blown if we added a couple hundred K of error or something. And we were like, but we think there's probably going to be an immediate huge business. Because there was some early poll on folks wanting to put WebContainer into their product offerings, kind of similar to what Bolt is doing or whatever. We were actually prepared for the inverse outcome here. But I mean, well, I guess we've seen poll on both. But I mean, what's happened with Bolt, and you're right, it's actually the same strategy as like OpenAI or Anthropic, where we have our ChatGPT to OpenAI's APIs is Bolt to WebContainer. And so we've kind of taken that same approach. And we're seeing, I guess, some of the similar results, except right now, the revenue side is extremely lopsided to Bolt.Itamar [00:52:16]: I think if you ask me what's my advice, I think you have three options. One is to focus on Bolt. The other is to focus on the WebContainer. The third is to raise one billion dollars and do them both. I'm serious. I think otherwise, you need to choose. And if you raise enough money, and I think it's big bucks, because you're going to be chased by competitors. And I think it will be challenging to do both. And maybe you can. I don't know. We do see these numbers right now, raising above $100 million, even without havingEric [00:52:49]: a product. You can see these. It's excellent advice. And I think what's been amazing, but also kind of challenging is we're trying to forecast, okay, well, where are these things going? I mean, in the initial weeks, I think us and all the investors in the company that we're sharing this with, it was like, this is cool. Okay, we added 500k. Wow, that's crazy. Wow, we're at a million now. Most things, you have this kind of the tech crunch launch of initiation and then the thing of sorrow. And if there's going to be a downtrend, it's just not coming yet. Now that we're kind of looking ahead, we're six weeks in. So now we're getting enough confidence in our convictions to go, okay, this se

Union Square Ventures has some of the best performing funds in the venture capital industry. As I've reported, USV-backer UTIMCO disclosed in a recent filing that USV had delivered the public investment fund an internal rate of return of 59%. And that number will likely go up over time. (For instance, USV portfolio company Casetext sold to Thomson Reuters for $650 million after the UTIMCO performance update.) I invited USV managing partner Rebecca Kaden onto the Newcomer podcast to talk about how USV consistently invests in unconventional companies. We started off our conversation talking about Journey Clinical, the psychedelics company, in which Kaden announced a Series A investment in January. We also discussed USV's $200 million climate fund strategy, her interest in the AI application layer, and how rising interest rates are effecting the venture capital asset class. Give it a listenHighlighted ExcerptsThe transcript has been edited for clarity.Eric: How do you repeatedly invest in weird things like psychedelics?Rebecca: This thesis around access to care, which has attracted so much capital — some of it ours and is proving to be a good category — has been where the market has gone, but it's actually only one piece of the puzzle. The way we get into things that are unusual is by having strong theses about where things are going versus being extremely opportunistic. Obviously, there's a balance. But that thesis thinking is important. A lot of thesis work on this category really led to the belief that access to care is only half the puzzle. The other is how is care itself going to evolve, and you start unraveling that thread: how is care itself evolving? The real biggest last evolution of care is SSRIs. Those are prescription drugs and have been very important to the treatment for mental health crises, but there's a lot of things they don't treat. They're not a one size fits all model. And they're basically all we got, right? The innovation has not had a lot of other layers, except for psychedelics. And so we became very interested in psychedelics as the next card to get turned over and the next option in needing a bucket of options to treat a crisis.Eric: There are pharmaceutical companies. If there's money to be made, shouldn't they be trying? What's happening that it feels like you need a real outsider thinking to bring ketamine, a drug that's legal, to people's lives that the medical system is unable or unwilling to do what's happening?Rebecca: Well, this isn't really unique to psychedelics or to mental health. Pharmaceutical companies make drugs, so the development of drugs goes with them, but the distribution and networks of access is outside of it. That's not particularly new or unique here. That's where business opportunity has been. So the idea is, when you talk about distribution and networks of access, that's often where these business opportunities lie. The development of drugs is kind of a different beast, which lies in the pharmaceuticals. Why is there a business opportunity with creating access? Because the same reason technology drives business opportunity into anything. Offline access is slower, it's more gated; it's more piecemeal. You have to be at the right doctor at the right time, you have to find it. By creating a network, you just allow anyone anywhere to find access and education at a faster speed and with much broader supply, which brings efficiency to the market.Eric: Do you think mushrooms are going to be on the table soon? Or how much was this a bet that the regulatory regime would change?Rebecca: I don't think mushrooms as we think about them in a recreational sense are just gonna get legalized, maybe they will, but that's a separate kind of thing. I think other forms of psychedelics in formats that are right for care are very much going to get legalized. And actually, as we did our research, to us that's a when not an if. When you dig into what's going on clinical trials and in the clinical world, in some ways that seems pretty easy to bet on that these will continue to happen. And if not exactly the form that we've outlined, rapid new forms of options for care for mental health diseases are going to get approved and released. They're going to need a network of education and distribution to go into the therapist network.I do think there's a regulatory risk here. There's some amount of regulatory risk on psychedelics. We have to be honest about it. But I actually think more about regulatory risk across broader online healthcare in general. We're at somewhat of a time of that whole market still getting worked out on not unique to mental health and not unique to psychedelics, but what you can prescribe online and to whom and to how and how to allow that really important access that we've come to rely on, but also do it in an appropriately controlled way.Eric: You come from a consumer focused firm. When you were interviewing with USV, was it clear that you were shifting away from consumer, and how have you thought about consumer professionally?Rebecca: We don't think a lot about the divide in our portfolio if we think about our fund construction, or how we're looking at the world between consumer and B2B. What we think about is this thesis and the mechanics involved, for instance the role of building network driven businesses and the opportunity to leverage bottom up networks to create moats and scale and to broaden access by driving value and down costs systematically across categories we care about. Sometimes the right application when you pull the threads of that thesis is a consumer product or service, and sometimes it's the enabling infrastructure of them. But most of USV's investments had been one of those two things. They've either been the end application or the enabling infrastructure involved, but a common theme throughout our investments is how do you build important networks that can change industries, but rise outside of them. If you think about Journey Clinical, it's a network of therapists. They're stronger, and the more you add on to them, it's a bottom up growing network of acquiring the therapist, even though it interacts with the healthcare system and can change it. But it's growing this network outside of the infrastructure to then impact the existing structure. We really like that if you think across of our investments, and sometimes that turns out to be consumer, if you think about an Outschool in education, or a Duolingo, or a Twitter, and sometimes it turns out to be the enabling infrastructure or the B2B Marketplace application like Journey Clinical.Eric: What are your thoughts on AI in consumer?Rebecca: The piece of the AI craziness that I'm most excited about is the application layer. There's still a lot of kind of complexity and uncertainty on the foundational model and on the enabling infrastructure on where equity value aggregates — how much of the stack the models own, how defensible those models are, how that shakes out — but what I feel like we can have more conviction about is that it unleashes a wave of consumer innovation that's going to be really fun. The way this is gonna get utilized is by products that we want to use. I'm excited about unleashing this rejuvenated value around fun things to do, where the coolest thing about AI driven applications is they get better if people actually use them. So the strongest incentive of the team is to increase engagement and utility. The only way to do that is to combine utility with fun. There's gonna be so many things in the market that if things aren't fun to use, you'll go to another option. But the team has a huge incentive to get you to stick because that's how their product gets better. So if you think about something like Duolingo, which has been on this for a long time of leveraging machine learning and AI to create better consumer experiences — streaks, gamification, fun — infused with the utility of language learning is critical, because their product gets better if I use it. I'm really excited to see that apply to lots of different consumer applications. We've been talking a lot and everyone's been talking a lot about whether they're going to be moats. Is stickiness going to be possible? The barriers are so low. The moat is going to be fun and teams that can create rapid new fun things that keep you on the platform. We haven't seen that in a while. I'm excited about it. Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe

Union Square Ventures has some of the best performing funds in the venture capital industry. As I've reported, USV-backer UTIMCO disclosed in a recent filing that USV had delivered the public investment fund an internal rate of return of 59%. And that number will likely go up over time. (For instance, USV portfolio company Casetext sold to Thomson Reuters for $650 million after the UTIMCO performance update.) I invited USV managing partner Rebecca Kaden onto the Newcomer podcast to talk about how USV consistently invests in unconventional companies. We started off our conversation talking about Journey Clinical, the psychedelics company, in which Kaden announced a Series A investment in January. We also discussed USV's $200 million climate fund strategy, her interest in the AI application layer, and how rising interest rates are effecting the venture capital asset class. Give it a listenHighlighted ExcerptsThe transcript has been edited for clarity.Eric: How do you repeatedly invest in weird things like psychedelics?Rebecca: This thesis around access to care, which has attracted so much capital — some of it ours and is proving to be a good category — has been where the market has gone, but it's actually only one piece of the puzzle. The way we get into things that are unusual is by having strong theses about where things are going versus being extremely opportunistic. Obviously, there's a balance. But that thesis thinking is important. A lot of thesis work on this category really led to the belief that access to care is only half the puzzle. The other is how is care itself going to evolve, and you start unraveling that thread: how is care itself evolving? The real biggest last evolution of care is SSRIs. Those are prescription drugs and have been very important to the treatment for mental health crises, but there's a lot of things they don't treat. They're not a one size fits all model. And they're basically all we got, right? The innovation has not had a lot of other layers, except for psychedelics. And so we became very interested in psychedelics as the next card to get turned over and the next option in needing a bucket of options to treat a crisis.Eric: There are pharmaceutical companies. If there's money to be made, shouldn't they be trying? What's happening that it feels like you need a real outsider thinking to bring ketamine, a drug that's legal, to people's lives that the medical system is unable or unwilling to do what's happening?Rebecca: Well, this isn't really unique to psychedelics or to mental health. Pharmaceutical companies make drugs, so the development of drugs goes with them, but the distribution and networks of access is outside of it. That's not particularly new or unique here. That's where business opportunity has been. So the idea is, when you talk about distribution and networks of access, that's often where these business opportunities lie. The development of drugs is kind of a different beast, which lies in the pharmaceuticals. Why is there a business opportunity with creating access? Because the same reason technology drives business opportunity into anything. Offline access is slower, it's more gated; it's more piecemeal. You have to be at the right doctor at the right time, you have to find it. By creating a network, you just allow anyone anywhere to find access and education at a faster speed and with much broader supply, which brings efficiency to the market.Eric: Do you think mushrooms are going to be on the table soon? Or how much was this a bet that the regulatory regime would change?Rebecca: I don't think mushrooms as we think about them in a recreational sense are just gonna get legalized, maybe they will, but that's a separate kind of thing. I think other forms of psychedelics in formats that are right for care are very much going to get legalized. And actually, as we did our research, to us that's a when not an if. When you dig into what's going on clinical trials and in the clinical world, in some ways that seems pretty easy to bet on that these will continue to happen. And if not exactly the form that we've outlined, rapid new forms of options for care for mental health diseases are going to get approved and released. They're going to need a network of education and distribution to go into the therapist network.I do think there's a regulatory risk here. There's some amount of regulatory risk on psychedelics. We have to be honest about it. But I actually think more about regulatory risk across broader online healthcare in general. We're at somewhat of a time of that whole market still getting worked out on not unique to mental health and not unique to psychedelics, but what you can prescribe online and to whom and to how and how to allow that really important access that we've come to rely on, but also do it in an appropriately controlled way.Eric: You come from a consumer focused firm. When you were interviewing with USV, was it clear that you were shifting away from consumer, and how have you thought about consumer professionally?Rebecca: We don't think a lot about the divide in our portfolio if we think about our fund construction, or how we're looking at the world between consumer and B2B. What we think about is this thesis and the mechanics involved, for instance the role of building network driven businesses and the opportunity to leverage bottom up networks to create moats and scale and to broaden access by driving value and down costs systematically across categories we care about. Sometimes the right application when you pull the threads of that thesis is a consumer product or service, and sometimes it's the enabling infrastructure of them. But most of USV's investments had been one of those two things. They've either been the end application or the enabling infrastructure involved, but a common theme throughout our investments is how do you build important networks that can change industries, but rise outside of them. If you think about Journey Clinical, it's a network of therapists. They're stronger, and the more you add on to them, it's a bottom up growing network of acquiring the therapist, even though it interacts with the healthcare system and can change it. But it's growing this network outside of the infrastructure to then impact the existing structure. We really like that if you think across of our investments, and sometimes that turns out to be consumer, if you think about an Outschool in education, or a Duolingo, or a Twitter, and sometimes it turns out to be the enabling infrastructure or the B2B Marketplace application like Journey Clinical.Eric: What are your thoughts on AI in consumer?Rebecca: The piece of the AI craziness that I'm most excited about is the application layer. There's still a lot of kind of complexity and uncertainty on the foundational model and on the enabling infrastructure on where equity value aggregates — how much of the stack the models own, how defensible those models are, how that shakes out — but what I feel like we can have more conviction about is that it unleashes a wave of consumer innovation that's going to be really fun. The way this is gonna get utilized is by products that we want to use. I'm excited about unleashing this rejuvenated value around fun things to do, where the coolest thing about AI driven applications is they get better if people actually use them. So the strongest incentive of the team is to increase engagement and utility. The only way to do that is to combine utility with fun. There's gonna be so many things in the market that if things aren't fun to use, you'll go to another option. But the team has a huge incentive to get you to stick because that's how their product gets better. So if you think about something like Duolingo, which has been on this for a long time of leveraging machine learning and AI to create better consumer experiences — streaks, gamification, fun — infused with the utility of language learning is critical, because their product gets better if I use it. I'm really excited to see that apply to lots of different consumer applications. We've been talking a lot and everyone's been talking a lot about whether they're going to be moats. Is stickiness going to be possible? The barriers are so low. The moat is going to be fun and teams that can create rapid new fun things that keep you on the platform. We haven't seen that in a while. I'm excited about it. Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe

Chapter jump times St. Patty's Day 5:34 Tom's at the point where he won't be a fresh face on the scene. 10:20 Max's book is a direct rip-off. 15:52 Max's new focus is independent consultants. 20:02 Sending a book out of nowhere - BALLER MOVE 21:52 Writing a book in spite of you. 26:07 Why you need to get your book out to your target audience. 30:40   Max Traylor is the author of Consultant's Survival Guide: Learnings for Make Benefit the Glorious Profession of Consulting.   https://www.amazon.com/Consultants-Survival-Guide-Profession-Consulting/dp/1734854561   His latest book is the follow up to his 1st book, The Agency Survival Guide: How to Productize Consulting Services and Do Other Things Better Too Vol. 30, B2B Marketing Advisor, Inbound Agency Coach, Strategist, and host of Beers With Max podcast. Hit him up at MaxTraylor.com   Max returns to the show to talk about the potential next edition Vol. 31, The Gap theory by Dan Sullivan Strategic Coach, Celebrate Your Achievements, Measuring Your Progress, Vendor Evaluation, Be An Indispensable Partner, Hedonistic Treadmill and more.         Episode sponsored by SQUARESPACE create a customizable website or online store with an all-in-one solution from Squarespace. Choose a website template and start your free trial today.  Here's our Squarespace promo coupon discount code affiliate link https://squarespacecircleus.pxf.io/sweatequity ---   Sweat Equity

For the first episode of the Newcomer podcast, I sat down with Reid Hoffman — the PayPal mafia member, LinkedIn co-founder, Greylock partner, and Microsoft board member. Hoffman had just stepped off OpenAI's board of directors. Hoffman traced his interest in artificial intelligence back to a conversation with Elon Musk.“This kicked off, actually, in fact, with a dinner with Elon Musk years ago,” Hoffman said. Musk told Hoffman that he needed to dive into artificial intelligence during conversations about a decade ago. “This is part of how I operate,” Hoffman remembers. “Smart people from my network tell me things, and I go and do things. And so I dug into it and I'm like, ‘Oh, yes, we have another wave coming.'”This episode of Newcomer is brought to you by VantaSecurity is no longer a cost center — it's a strategic growth engine that sets your business apart. That means it's more important than ever to prove you handle customer data with the utmost integrity. But demonstrating your security and compliance can be time-consuming, tedious, and expensive. Until you use Vanta.Vanta's enterprise-ready Trust Management Platform empowers you to:* Centralize and scale your security program* Automate compliance for the most sought-after frameworks, including SOC 2, ISO 27001, and GDPR* Earn and maintain the trust of customers and vendors alikeWith Vanta, you can save up to 400 hours and 85% of costs. Win more deals and enable growth quickly, easily, and without breaking the bank.For a limited time, Newcomer listeners get $1,000 off Vanta. Go to vanta.com/newcomer to get started.Why I Wanted to Talk to Reid Hoffman & What I Took AwayHoffman is a social network personified. Even his journey to something as wonky as artificial intelligence is told through his connections with people. In a world of algorithms and code, Hoffman is upfront about the extent to which human connections decide Silicon Valley's trajectory. (Of course they are paired with profound technological developments that are far larger than any one person or network.)When it comes to the rapidly developing future powered by large language models, a big question in my mind is who exactly decides how these language models work? Sydney appeared in Microsoft Bing and then disappeared. Microsoft executives can dispatch our favorite hallucinations without public input. Meanwhile, masses of images can be gobbled up without asking their creators and then the resulting image generation tools can be open-sourced to the world. It feels like AI super powers come and go with little notice. It's a world full of contradictions. There's constant talk of utopias and dystopias and yet startups are raising conventional venture capital financing.The most prominent player in artificial intelligence — OpenAI — is a non-profit that raised from Tiger Global. It celebrates its openness in its name and yet competes with companies whose technology is actually open-sourced. OpenAI's governance structure and priorities largely remain a mystery. Finally, unlike tech's conservative billionaires who throw their money into politics, in the case of Hoffman, here is a tech overlord that I seem to mostly agree with politically. I wanted to know what that would be like. Is it just good marketing? And where exactly is his heart and political head at right now?I thought he delivered. I didn't feel like he was dodging my questions, even in a world where maintaining such a wide network requires diplomacy. Hoffman seemed eager and open — even if he started to bristle at what he called my “edgy words.”Some Favorite QuotesWe covered a lot of ground in our conversation. We talked about AI sentience and humans' failures to identify consciousness within non-human beings. We talked about the coming rise in AI cloud compute spending and how Microsoft, Google, and Amazon are positioned in the AI race.Hoffman said he had one major condition for getting involved in OpenAI back in the early days when Musk was still on board.“My price for participation was to ask Elon to stop saying the word “robocalypse,” Hoffman told me. “Because I thought that the problem was it's very catchy and it evokes fear.”I asked Hoffman why he thought Musk got involved in artificial intelligence in the first place when Musk seems so worried about how it might develop. Why get the ball rolling down the hill at all, I wondered?Hoffman replied that many people in the field of artificial intelligence had “messiah complexes.”“It's the I am the one who must bring this — Prometheus, the fire to humanity,” Hoffman said. “And you're like, ‘Okay, I kind of think it should be us versus an individual.'” He went on, “Now, us can't be 8 billion people — us is a small group. But I think, more or less, you see the folks who are steering with a moral compass try to say, how do I get at least 10 to 15 people beyond myself with their hands on the steering wheel in deep conversations in order to make sure you get there? And then let's make sure that we're having the conversations with the right communities.”I raised the possibility that this merely suggested oligarchic control of artificial intelligence rather than dictatorial control. We also discussed Hoffman's politics, including his thoughts on Joe Biden and “woke” politics. I asked him about the state of his friendship with fellow PayPal mafia member Peter Thiel. “I basically am sympathetic to people as long as they are legitimately and earnestly committed to the dialogue and discussion of truth between them and not committed otherwise,” Hoffman said. “There are folks from the PayPal years that I don't really spend much time talking to. There are others that I do continue because that conversation about discovering who we are and who we should be is really important. And you can't allow your own position to be the definer.”I suggested that Thiel's public views sometimes seemed insincere.“Oh, that's totally corrosive,” Hoffman said. “And as much as that's happening, it's terrible. And that's one of the things that in conversations I have, I push people, including Peter, on a lot.”Give it a listen.Find the PodcastRead the TranscriptEric: Reid, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm very excited for this conversation. You know, I'm getting ready for my own AI conference at the end of this month, so hopefully this is sort of a prep by the end of this conversation, we'll all be super smart and ready for that. I feel like there've been so many rounds of sort of AI as sort of the buzzword of the day.This clearly seems the hottest. When did you get into this moment of it? I mean, obviously you just stepped off the Open AI board. You were on that board. Like how, when did you start to see this movement that we're experiencing right now coming.Reid: Well, it's funny because my undergraduate major was artificial intelligence and cognitive science. So I've, I've been around the hoop for multiple waves for a long time and I think this kicked off actually, in fact, with a dinner with Elon Musk years ago. You know, 10-ish years ago, Elon and I would have dinner about once a quarter and he's like, well, are you paying attention to this AI stuff?And I'm like, well, I majored in it and you know, I know about this stuff. He's like, no, you need to get back involved. And I was like, all right. This is part of how I operate is smart people from my network tell me things and I go and do things. And so I dug into it and I went, oh yes, we have another wave coming.And this was probably about seven or eight years ago, when I, when I saw the beginning of the wave or the seismic event. Maybe it was a seismic event out at sea and I was like, okay, there's gonna be a tsunami here and we should start getting ready cause the tsunami is actually gonna be amazingly great and interesting.Eric: And that—is that the beginning of Open AI?Reid: Open AI is later. What I did is I went and made connections with the kind of the heads of every AI lab and major company because I concluded that I thought that the AI revolution will be primarily driven by large companies initially because of the scale compute requirements.And so, you know, talked to Demis Hassabis, met Mustafa Suleyman, talked to Yann LeCun, talked to Jeff Dean, you know, all these kind of folks and kind of, you know, built all that. And then it was later in conversations with Sam and Elon that I said, look, we need to do something that's a for pro humanity. Not just commercial effort. And my price for participation, cause I thought it was a great idea, but my price for participation was to ask Elon to stop saying the word robocalypse. Because I thought that the problem was that it's very catchy and it evokes fear. And actually, in fact, one of the things I think about this whole area is that it's so much more interesting and has so much amazing opportunity for humanity.A little bit like, I don't know if you saw the Atlantic article I wrote that we evolve ourselves through technology and I'm, you know, going to be doing some writings around describing AI as augmented intelligence versus artificial intelligence. And I wanted to kind of build that positive, optimistic case that I think is the higher probability that I think we can shape towards and so forth.So it's like, okay, I'm in, but no more Robocalypse.Eric: I appreciate the ultimate sort of network person that you tell the story through people. I always appreciate when the origin stories of technology actually come through the human beings. With Elon in particular, I'm sort of confused by his position because it seems like he's very afraid of AI.And if that's the case, why would you want to, like, do anything to sort of get the ball rolling down the hill? Like, isn't there a sort of just like, stay away from it, man, if you think it's so bad. How do you see his thinking? And I'm sure it's evolved.Reid: Well, I think his instinct for the good and the challenging of this is he tends to think AI will only be good if I'm the one who's in control.Eric: Sort of, yeah.Reid: Yeah. And this is actually somewhat replete within the modern AI field. Not everybody but this. And Elon is a public enough figure that I think, you know, making this comment of him is not talking at a school.Other people would, there's a surprising number of Messiah complexes in the field of AI, and, and it's the, I am the one who must bring this, you know, Prometheus, you know, the Fire to humanity. And you're like, okay, I kind of think it should be us, right? Versus an individual. Now us can't be 8 billion people, us as a small group, but I think more or less you see the, the folks who are steering with a moral compass try to say, how do I get at least 10 to 15 people beyond myself with their hands on the steering wheel in deep conversations in order to make sure you get there and then let, let's make sure that we're having the conversations with the right communities.Like if you say, well, is this going to, you know, institutionalize, ongoing, um, you know, power structures or racial bias, something else? Well, we're talking to the people to make sure that we're going to minimize that, especially over time and navigate it as a real issue. And so those are the, like, that's the kind of anti Messiah complex, which, which is more or less the efforts that I tend to get involved in.Eric: Right. At least sort of oligarchy, of AI control instead of just dictatorship of it.Reid: Well, yeah, and it depends a little bit, even on oligarchy, look, things are built by small numbers of people. It's just a fact, right? Like, there aren't more than, you know, a couple of founders, maybe maximum five in any, any particular thing. There is, you know, there's reasons why. When you have a construction project, you have a head of construction, right?Et cetera. The important thing is to make sure that's why you have, why you have a CEO, you have a board of directors. That's why you have, you know, you say, well, do we have the right thing where a person is accountable to a broader group? And that broader group feels their governance responsibility seriously.So oligarchy is a—Eric: a chargedReid: is a charged word. And I,Eric: There's a logic to it. I'm not, I'm not using it to say it doesn't make sense that you want the people to really understand it around, around it. Um, I mean, specifically with Open AI, I mean, you, you just stepped off the board. You're also on the board of Microsoft, which is obviously a very significant player.In this future, I mean, it's hard to be open. I get a little frustrated with the “open” in “Open AI” because I feel like there's a lot that I don't understand. I'm like, maybe they should change the name a little bit, but is it still a charity in your mind? I mean, it's obviously raised from Tiger Global, the ultimate prophet maker.Like, how should we think about the sort of core ambitions of Open AI?Reid: Well, um, one, the board I was on was a fine one and they've been very diligent about making sure that all of the controls, including for the subsidiary company are from the 501(C)(3) and diligent to its mission, which is staffed by people on the 501(C)(3) board with the responsibilities of being on a 5 0 1 board, which is being in service of the mission, not doing, you know, private inurement and other kinds of things.And so I actually think it is fundamentally still a 501(C)(3). The challenge is if you kind of say, you look at this and say, well, in order to be a successful player in the modern scale AI, you need to have billions of dollars of compute. Where do you get those billions of dollars? Because, you know, the foundations and the philanthropy industry is generally speaking bad at tech and bad at anything other than little tiny checks in tech.And so you said, well, it's really important to do this. So part of what I think, you know, Sam and that group of folks came up with this kind of clever thing to say, well, look, we're about beneficial AI, we're about AI for humanity. We're about making an, I'll make a comment on “open” in a second, but we are gonna generate some commercially valuable things.What if we struck a commercial deal? So you can have the commercial things or you can share the commercial things. You invest in us in order to do this, and then we make sure that the AI has the right characteristics. And then the “open”, you know, all short names have, you know, some simplicities to them.The idea is open to the world in terms of being able to use it and benefit from it. It doesn't mean the same thing as open source because AI is actually one of those things where opening, um, where you could do open source, you could actually be creating something dangerous. As a modern example, last year, Open AI deliberately… DALL·E 2 was ready four months before it went out. I know cause I was playing with it. They did the four months to do safety training and the kind of safety training is, well, let's make sure that individuals can't be libeled. Let's make sure you can't create as best we can, child sexual material. Let's make sure you can't do revenge porn and we'll serve it through the API and we'll make it unchangeable on that.And then the open source people come out and they go do whatever you want and then wow, you get all this crazy, terrible stuff. So “open” is openness of availability, but still with safety and still with, kind of call it the pro-human controls. And that's part of what OpenAI means in this.Eric: I wrote in sort of a mini essay in the newsletter about, like tech fatalism and it fits into your sort of messiah complex that you're talking about, if I'm a young or new startup entrepreneur, it's like this is my moment if I hold back, you know, there's a sense that somebody else is gonna do it too. This isn't necessarily research. Some of the tools are findable, so I need to do it. If somebody's going to, it's easy if you're using your own personhood to say, I'm better than that guy! Even if I have questions about it, I should do it. So that, I think we see that over and over again. Obviously the stakes with AI, I think we both agree are much larger.On the other hand, with AI, there's actually, in my view, been a little bit more restraint. I mean, Google has been a little slower. Facebook seems a little worried, like, I don't know. How do you agree with that sort of view of tech fatalism? Is there anything to be done about it or it's just sort of—if it's possible, it's gonna happen, so the best guy, the best team should do it?Or, or how do you think about that sense of inevitability on if it's possible, it'll be built?Reid: Well, one thing is you like edgy words, so what you describe is tech fatalism, I might say as something more like tech inevitability or tech destiny. And part of it is what, I guess what I would say is for example, we are now in a AI moment and era. There's global competition for it. It's scale compute.It's not something that even somebody like a Google or someone else can kind of have any kind of, real ball control on. But the way I look at it is, hey, look, there's, there's utopic outcomes and dystopic outcomes and it's within our control to steer it. Um, and even to steer it at speed, even under competition because.For example, obviously the general discourse within media is, oh my God, what's happening with the data and what's gonna happen with the bias and what's gonna happen with the crazy conversations, with Bing Chat and all the rest of this stuff. And you're like, well, what am I obsessed about? I'm obsessed about the fact that I have line of sight to an AI tutor and an AI doctor on every cell phone.And think about if you delay that, whatever number of years you delay that, what your human cost is of delaying that, right? And it's like, how do we get that? And for example, people say, wow, the real issue is that Bing chat model is gonna go off the rails and have a drunken cocktail party conversation because it's provoked to do so and can't run away from the person who's provoking it.Uh, and you say, well, is that the real issue? Or is it a real issue? Let's make sure that as many people as we can have access to that AI doctor have access to that AI tutor that where, where we can, where not only, you know, cause obviously technology cause it's expensive initially benefits elites and people are rich.And by the way, that's a natural way of how our capitalist system and all the rest works. But let's try to get it to everyone else as quickly as possible, right?Eric: I a hundred percent agree with that. So I don't want any of my sort of, cynical take like, oh my God, this version.I'd also extend it, you know, I think you're sort of referencing maybe the Sydney situation where you have Kevin Rus in New York Times, you know, communicating with Bing's version of ChatGPT and sort of finding this character who's sort of goes by Sydney from the origin story.And Ben Thompson sort of had a similar experience. And I would almost say it's sad for the world to be deprived of that too. You know, there's like a certain paranoia, it's like, it's like, oh, I wanna meet this sort of seemingly intelligent character. I don't know. What do you make of that whole episode? I mean, people really, I mean, Ben Thompson, smart tech writers really latched onto this as something that they found moving.I don't know. Is there anything you take away from that saga and do you think we'll see those sort of, I don't know, intelligent characters again,Reid: Well for sure. I think 2023 will be at least the first year of the so-called chatbot. Not just because of ChatGPT. And I think that we will have a bunch of different chat bots. I think we'll have chatbots that are there to be, you know, entertainment companions, witty dialogue participants.I think we'll have chatbots that are there to be information like Insta, Wikipedia, kind of things. I think we'll have chatbots that are there to just have someone to talk to. So I think there'll be a whole, whole range of things. And I think we will have all that experience.And I think part of the thing is to say, look, what are the parameters by which you should say the bots should absolutely not do X. And it's fine if these people want a bot that's like, you know, smack talking and these people want something that you know, goes, oh heck. Right?You know, like, what's, what's the range of that? And obviously children get in the mix and, and the questions around things that we already encounter a lot with search, which is like could a chat bot enable self-harm in a way that would be really bad?Let's really try to make sure that someone who's depressed doesn't figure out a way to harm themselves either with search or with chat bots.Eric: Is there a psychologically persuasive, so it's not just the information provided, it's the sense that they might be like walking you towards something less serious.Reid: And they are! This is the thing that's amazing. and it's part of the reason why like everyone should have some interaction with these in some emotional, tangible way. We are really passing the Turing test. This is the thing that I had visibility on a few years ago because I was like, okay, we kind of judge, you know, intelligence and sentience like that, Google engineers like it.I asked if it was conscious and it said it was because we use language as a way of doing that. And you're like, well, but look, that tells you that your language use is not quite fully there. And because part of what's really amazing about, “hallucinations”—and I'm probably gonna do a fireside chat with the gray matter thing on hallucinations, maybe later this week—where the hallucination is, on one hand it says this amazingly accurate, wonderful thing, very persuasively, and then it says this other thing really persuasively that's total fiction, right? And you're like, wow, you sound very persuasive in both cases. But that one's true and that one's fiction.And that's part of the reason why I kind of go back to the augmented intelligence and all the things that I see going on with in 2023 is much less replacement and much more augmentation. It's not zero replacement, but it's much more augmentation in terms of how this plays. And that is super exciting.Eric: Yeah. I mean, to some degree it reflects sort of the weakness in human beings' own abilities to read what's happening. Ahead of this interview, I was talking to the publicly available ChatGPT. I don't know if you saw but I was asking it for questions and I felt like it delivered a very reasonable set of questions. You know, you've written about Blitzscaling, so [ChatGPT] is like, let's ask about that. It's, you know, ask in the context of Microsoft. But when I was like, have you [ChatGPT] ever watched Joe Rogan? Have you ever been on a podcast? Sometimes maybe you should have a long sort of, you should have a statement like I'm doing right now where I sort of have some things I'm saying.Then I ask a question. Other times it should be short and sweet. Sometimes it, you know, annoys you and says oligarchy, like explaining to the chat bot. [In an interview, a journalist] can't just ask a list of like, straightforward questions and it felt like it didn't really even get that. And I get that there's some sort of, we're, we're starting to have a conversation now with companies like Jasper, where it's almost like the language prompting itself.I think Sam Altman was maybe saying it's like almost a form of plain language like coding because you have to figure out how to get what you want out of them. And maybe it was just my failure to explain it, but as a journalist replacing questions, I didn't find the current model of ChatGPT really capable of that.Reid: No, that's actually one of the things on the ChatGPT I find is, like, for example, you ask what questions to ask Reid Hoffman in a podcast interview, and you'll get some generic ones. It'll say like, well, what's going on with new technologies like AI and, and what's going on in Silicon Valley? And you know, and you're like, okay, sure.But those aren't the really interesting questions. That's not what makes me a great journalist, which is kind of a lens to something that people can learn from and that will evolve and change that'll get better. But that's again, one of the reasons why I think it's a people plus machine. Because for example, if I were to say, hey, what should I ask Eric about? Or what should I talk to Eric about and go to? Yeah, gimme some generic stuff. Now if I said, oh, give me a briefing on, um, call it, um, UN governance systems as they apply to AI, because I want to be able to talk about this. I didn't do this, but it would give me a kind of a quick Wikipedia briefing and that would make my conversation more interesting and I might be able to ask a question about the governance system or something, you know, as a way of doing it.And that's what AI is, I think why the combo is so great. Um, and anyway, so that's what we should be aiming towards. It isn't to say, by the way, sometimes like replacement is a good thing. For example, you go to autonomous vehicles and say, hey, look, if we could wave a wand and every car on the road today would be an autonomous vehicle, we'd probably save, we'd probably go from 40,000 deaths in the US per, you know, year to, you know, maybe a thousand or 2000. And you're like, you're shaving 38,000 lives a year, in doing this. It's a good thing. And, you know, it will have a positive vector on gridlocks and for climate change and all the rest of the stuff.And you go, okay, that replacement, yes, we have to navigate truck jobs and all the rest, but that replacement's good. But I think a lot of it is going to end up being, you know, kind of, various forms of amplification. Like if you get to journalists, you go, oh, it'll help me ask, figure out which interesting questions to add.Not because it'll just go here, here's your script to ask questions. But you can get better information to prep your thinking on it.Eric: Yeah. I'm glad you brought up like the self-driving car case and, you know, you're, are you still on the board of Aurora?Reid: I am.Eric: I've, you know, I covered Uber, so I was in their self-driving cars very early, and they made a lot of promises. Lyft made a lot of promises.I mean, I feel like part of my excitement about this sort of generative AI movement is that it feels like it doesn't require completeness in the same way that self-driving cars do. You know? And that, that, that's been a barrier to self-driving cars. On the flip side, you know, sometimes we sort of wave away the inaccuracy and then we say, you know, we sort of manage it.I think that's what we were sort of talking about earlier. You imagine it in some of the completeness that could come. So I guess the question here is just do you think, what I'm calling the completeness problem. I guess just the idea that it needs to be sort of fully capable will be an issue with the large language models or do you think you have this sort of augmented model where it could sort of stop now and still be extremely useful to much of society?Reid: I think it could stop now and be extremely useful. I've got line of sight on current technology for a tutor, for a doctor, for a bunch of other stuff. One of the things my partner and I wrote last year was that within five years, there's gonna be a co-pilot for every profession.The way to think about that is what professionals do. They process information, they take some kind of action. Sometimes that's generating other information, just like you see with Microsoft's co-pilot product for engineers. And what you can see happening with DallE and other image generation for graphic designers, you'll see this for every professional, that there will be a co-pilot on today's technology that can be built.That's really amazing. I do think that as you continue to make progress, you can potentially make them even more amazing, because part of what happened when you move from, you know, GPT3 to 3.5, which is all of a sudden it can write sonnets. Right? You didn't really know that it was gonna be able to write sonnets.That's giving people superpowers. Most people, including myself—I mean, look, I could write a sonnet if you gave me a couple of days and a lot of coffee and a lot of attempts to really try.Eric: But you wouldn't.Reid: You wouldn't. Yeah. But now I can go, oh, you know, I'd like to, to, um, write a sonnet about my friend Sam Altman.And I can go down and I can sit there and I can kind of type, you know, duh da, and I can generate, well, I don't like that one. Oh, but then I like this one, you know, and da da da. And, and that, that gives you superpowers. I mean, think about what you can do for writing, a whole variety of things with that. And that I think the more and more completeness is the word you are using is I think also a powerful thing. Even though what we have right now is amazing.Eric: Is GPT4 a big improvement over what we have? I assume you've seen a fair bit of unreleased, stuff. Like how hyped should we be about the improvement level?Reid: I have. I'm not really allowed to say very much about it cause, you know, part of the responsibilities of former board members and confidentiality. But I do think that it will be a nice—I think people will look at it and go, Ooh, that's cool. And it will be another iteration, another thing as amazing as ChatGPT has, and obviously that's kind of in the last few months. It's kind of taken the world by storm, opening up this vista of imagination and so forth.I think GPT4 will be another step forward where people will go, Ooh, that's, that, that's another cool thing. I think that's—can't be more specific than that, but watch this space cause it'll be cool.Eric: Throughout this conversation we've danced around this sort of artificial general intelligence question. starting with the discussion of Elon and the creation of eventually Open AI. I'm curious how close you think we are with AGI and this idea of a sort of, I mean, people define it so many different ways, you know, it's more sophisticated than humans in some tasks, you know, mini tasks, whatever.How, how do you think we're far from that? Or how, how, how do you see that playing out?Reid: Personally amongst a lot of the people who are in the field, I'm probably on the, we're-much-further-than-we-think stage. Now, some of that's because I've lived through this before with my undergraduate degree and the, you know, the pattern generally is, oh my God, we've gotten this computer to do this amazing thing that we thought was formally the provence of only these cognitive human beings.And it could do that. So then by the way, in 10 years it'll be solving new science problems like fusion and all the rest. And if you go back to the seventies, you saw that same dialogue. I mean, it, it's, it's an ongoing thing. Now we do have a more amazing set of cognitive capabilities than we did before, and there are some reasons to argue that it could be in a decade or two. Because you say, well, these large language models can enable coding and that coding can all, can then be self, reflective and generative, and that can then make something go. But when I look at the coding and how that works right now, it doesn't generate the kind of code that's like, oh, that's amazing new code.It helps with the, oh, I want to do a parser for quick sort, right? You know, like that kind of stuff. And it's like, okay, that's great. Or a systems integration use of an API or calling in an API for a spellchecker or whatever. Like it's really helpful stuff on engineers, but it's not like, oh my God, it's now inventing the new kind of training of large scale models techniques.And so I think even some of the great optimists will tell you of the great, like believers that it'll be soon and say there's one major invention. And the thing is, once you get to one major invention, is that one major invention? Is that three major inventions? Is it 10 major inventions?Like I think we are some number of major inventions away. I don't, I certainly don't think it's impossible to get there.Eric: Sorry. The major inventions are us human beings build, building things into the system or…?Reid: Yeah. Like for example, you know, can it do, like, for example, a classic, critique of a lot of large language models is can it do common sense reasoning.Eric: Gary Marcus is very…Reid: Exactly. Right. Exactly. And you know, the short answer right now is the large language models are approximating common sense reasoning.Now they're doing it in a powerful and interesting enough way that you're like, well, that's pretty useful. It's pretty helpful about what it's doing, but I agree that it's not yet doing all of that. And also you get problems like, you know, what are called one shot learning. Can you learn from one instance of it?Cause currently the training requires lots and lots of compute processing over days or in self play, can you have an accurate memory store that you update? Like for example, you say now fact X has happened, your entire world based on fact X. Look, there's a bunch of this stuff to all go.And the question is, is that one major invention is that, you know, five major inventions, and by the way, major inventions or major inventions even all the amazing stuff we've done over the last five to 10 years. Major inventions on major inventions. So I myself tend to be two things on the AGI one.I tend to think it's further than most people think. And I don't know if that further is it's 10 years versus five or 20 years versus 10 or 50 years versus 20. I don't, I don't really know.Eric: In your lifetime, do you think?Reid: It's possible, although I don't know. But let me give two other lenses I think on the AGI question cause the other thing that people tend to do is they tend to go, there's like this AI, which is technique machine learning, and there's totally just great, it's augmented intelligence and then there's AGI and who knows what happens with AGI.And you say, well first is AGI is a whole range of possible things. Like what if you said, Hey, I can build something that's the equivalent of a decent engineer or decent doctor, but to run it costs me $200 an hour and I have AGI? But it's $200 an hour. And you're like, okay, well that's cool and that means we can, we can get as many of them as we need. But it's expensive. And so it isn't like all of a sudden, you know, Terminator or you know, or inventing fusion or something like that is AGI and or a potential version of AGI. So what is AGI is the squishy thing that people then go, magic. The second thing is, the way that I've looked at the progress in the last five to eight years is we're building a set of iteratively better savants, right?It just like the chess player was a savant. Um, and, and the savants are interestingly different now. When does savant become a general intelligence and when might savant become a general super intelligence? I don't know. It's obviously a super intelligence already in some ways. Like for example, I wouldn't want to try to play, go against it and win, try to win.It's a super intelligence when it comes, right? But like okay, that's great cause in our perspective, having some savants like this that are super intelligence is really helpful to us. So, so the whole AGI discussion I think tends to go a little bit Hollywood-esque. You know, it's not terminator.Eric: I mean, there there is, there's a sort of argument that could be made. I mean, you know, humans are very human-centric about our beliefs and our intelligence, right? We don't have a theory of mind for other animals. It's very hard for us to prove that other species, you know, have some experience of consciousness like qualia or whatever.Reid: Very philosophically good use of a term by the way.Eric: Thank you. Um, I studied philosophy though. I've forgotten more than I remember. But, um, you know, I mean…Reid: Someday we'll figure out what it's like to be a bat. Probably not this time.Eric: Right, right, exactly. Is that, that's Nagel. If the machine's better than me at chess and go there, there's a level of I, you know, here I am saying it doesn't have an experience, but it, it's so much smarter than me in certain domains.I don't, I, the question is just like, it seems like humans are not capable of seeing what it's like to be a bat. So will we ever really be able to sort of convince ourselves that there's something that it's like to be, um, an AGI system?Reid: Well, I think the answer is um, yes, but it will require a bunch of sophistication. Like one of the things I think is really interesting about, um, as we anthropomorphize the world a little bit and I think some of this machine. Intelligence stuff will, will enable us to do that is, well what does it mean to understand X or, or, or, or no X or experience X or have qualia or whatever else.And right now what we do is we say, well it's some king of shadowy image from being human. So we tend to undercount like animals intelligence. And people tend to be surprised like, look, you know, some animals mate for life and everything else, they clearly have a theory of the world and it's clearly stuff we're doing.We go, ah, they don't have the same kind of consciousness we do. And you're like, well they certainly don't have the same kind of consciousness, but we're not doing a very good job of studying like what the, where it's similar in order it's different. And I think we're gonna need to broaden that out outcome to start saying, well, when you compare us and an eagle or a dolphin or a whale or a chimpanzee or a lion, you know, what are the similarities and and differences?And how this works. And um, and I think that will also then be, well, what happens when it's a silicon substrate? You know? Do we, do we think that consciousness requires a biological substrate? If so, why? Um, and, you know, part of how, of course we get to understand, um, each other's consciousness as we, we get this depth of experience.Where I realize is it isn't, you're just a puppet.Eric:  [laughs] I am, I am just a puppet.Reid: Well, we're, we're talking to each other through Riverside, so, you know, who knows, right. You know, deep fakes and all that.Eric: The AI's already ahead of you. You know, I'm just, it's already, no.Reid: Yeah. I think we're gonna have to get more sophisticated on that question now.I think it's, it's too trivial to say because it can mimic language in particularly interesting ways. And it says, yes, I'm conscious that that makes it conscious. Like that's not, that's not what we use as an instance. And, and part of it is like, do you understand the like part of how we've come to understand each other's consciousness is we realize that we experience things in similar ways.We feel joy in similar, we feel pain in similar ways and that kinda stuff. And that's part of how we begin to understand. And I think it'll be really good that this may kick off kind of us being slightly less kind of call it narcissistically, anthropocentric in this and a broader concept as we look at this.Eric: You know, I was talking to my therapist the other day and I was saying, you know, oh, I did this like kind gesture, but I didn't feel like some profound, like, I don't, it just seemed like the right thing to do. I did it. It felt like I did the right thing should, you know, shouldn't I feel like more around it?And you know, her perspective was much more like, oh, what matters is like doing the thing, not sort of your internal states about it. Which to me would, would go to the, if the machine can, can do all the things we expect from sort of a caring type type machine. Like why do we need to spend all this time when we don't even expect that of humans to always feel the right feelings.Reid: I totally agree with you. Look, I think the real question is what you do. Now that being said, part of how we predict what you do is that, you know, um, you may not have like at that moment gone, haha, I think of myself as really good cause I've done this kind thing. Which by the way, might be a better human thing as opposed to like, I'm doing this cause I'm better than most people.Eric: Right.Reid: Yeah, but it's the pattern in which you engage in these things and part of the feelings and so forth is cause that creates a kind of a reliability of pattern of do you see other people? Do you have the aspiration to have, not just yourself, but the people around you leading better and improving lives.And obviously if that's the behavior that we're seeing from these things, then that's a lot of it. And the only question is, what's that forward looking momentum on it? And I think amongst humans that comes to an intention, a model of the world and so forth. You know, amongst, amongst machines that mean just maybe the no, no, we're aligned.Well, like, we've done a really good alignment with human progress.Eric: Do you think there will be a point in time where it's like an ethical problem to unplug it? Like I think of like a bear, right? Like a bear is dangerous. You know, there are circumstances where pretty comfortable. Killing the bear,But if the bear like hasn't actually done anything, we've taken it under our care. Like we don't just like shoot bears at zoos, you know? Do you think there's a point where like, and it costs us money to sustain the bear at a zoo, do you think there are cases where we might say, oh man, now there's an ethical question around unpluggingReid: I think it's a when, not an if.Eric: Yeah.Reid: Right? I mean, it may be a when, once again, just like AGI, that's a fair way's out. But it's a when, not an if. And by the way, I think that's again, part of the progress that we make because we think about like, how should we be treating it? Because, you know, like for example, if you go back a hundred, 150 years, the whole concept of animal rights doesn't exist in humans.You know, it's like, hey, you wanna, you want to torture animal X to death, you know, like you're queer, but you're, you're, you're allowed to do that. That's an odd thing for you to do. And maybe it's kind of like, like distasteful, like grungy bad in some way, but , you know, it's like, okay. Where's now you're like, oh, that person is, is like going out to try to go torture animals! We should like get them in an institution, right? Like, that's not okay. You know, what is that further progress for the rights and lives? And I think it will ultimately come to things that we think are, when it gets to kind of like things that have their own agency and have their own consciousness and sets of existence.We should be including all of that in some, in some grand or elevated, you know, kind of rights conceptions.Eric: All right, so back back to my listeners who, you know, wanna know where to invest and make money off this and, you know.Reid: [laughs] It isn't from qualia and consciousness. Oh, wait.Eric: Who do you think are the key players? The key players in the models. Then obviously there are more sort of, I don't know if we're calling them vertical solutions or product oriented or whatever, however you think about them.But starting with the models, like who do you see as sort of the real players right now? Are you counting out a Google or do you think they'll still, you know, sort of show?Reid: Oh no. I think Google will show up. And obviously, you know, Open AI, Microsoft has done a ton of stuff. I co-founded Inflection last year with Mustafa Suleyman. We have a just amazing team and I do see a lot of teams, so I'm.Eric: And that's to build sort of the foundational…Reid: Yeah, they're gonna, well, they're building their own models and they're gonna build some things off those models.We haven't really said what they are yet. But that's obviously going to be kind of new models. Adept, another Greylock investment building its own models, Character is building its own models, Anthropic is building its own models. And Anthropic is, you know, Dario and the crew is smart folks from Open AI, they're, they're doing stuff within a kind of a similar research program that Open AI is doing.And so I think those are the ones that I probably most track.Eric: Character's an interesting case and you know, we're still learning more about that company. You know, I was first to report they're looking to raise 250 million. My understanding is that what's interesting is they're building the models, but then for a particular use case, right?Or like, it's really a question of leverage or like, do people need to build the models to be competitive or do you think there will be... can you build a great business on top of Stability or Open AI or do you need to do it yourself?Reid: I think you can, but the way you do it is you can't say it's cause I have unique access to the model. It has to be, you know, I have a business that has network effects or I'm well integrated in enterprise, or I have another deep stack of technology that I'm bringing into it. It can't just be, I'm a lightweight front end to it because then other people can be the lightweight front end.So you can build great businesses. I think with it, I do think that people will both build businesses off, you know, things like the Open AI APIs and I think people will also train models. Because I think one of the things that will definitely happen is a lot of… not just will large models be built in ways that are interesting and compelling, but I think a bunch of smaller models will be built that are specifically tuned and so forth.And there's all kinds of reasons. Everything from you can build them to do something very specific, but also like inference cost, does it, does it run on a low compute or low power footprint? You know, et cetera, et cetera. You know, AI doctor, AI tutor, um, you know, duh and on a cell phone. And, um, and so, you know, I think like all of that, I think the short answer to this is allEric: Right. Do you think we are in a compute arms race still, or do you, do you think this is gonna continue where it's just if you can raise a billion dollars to, to buy sort of com GPU access basically from Microsoft or Amazon or Google, you're, you're gonna be sort of pretty far ahead? Or how do you think about that sort of the money, the money and computing rates shaping up?Reid: So I kind of think about two. There's kind of two lines of trends. There's one line, which is the larger and larger models, which by the way, you say, well, okay, so does the scale compute and one x flop goes to two x flops, and does your performance function go up by that?And it doesn't have to go up by a hundred percent or, or two x or plus one x. It could go up by 25%, but sometimes that really matters. Coding doctors, you know, legal, other things. Well, it's like actually, in fact, it, even though it's twice as expensive, a 25% increase in, you know, twice as expensive of compute, the 25% increase in performance is worth it. And I think you then have a large scale model, like a set of things that are kind of going along need to be using the large scale models.Then I think there's a set of things that don't have that need. And for example, that's one of the reasons I wasn't really surprised at all by the profusion of image generation, cuz those are, you know, generally speaking, trainable for a million to $10 million. I think there's gonna be a range of those.I think, you know, maybe someone will figure out how to do, you know, a hundred-million version and once they figured out how to do a hundred-million dollar version, someone also figured out how to do the 30-million version of that hundred-million dollar version. And there's a second line going on where all of these other smaller models will fit into interesting businesses. And then I think a lot of people will either deploy an open source model that they're using themselves, train their own model, get a special deal with, like a model provider or something else as a way of doing it.And so I think the short answer is there will be both, and you have to be looking at this from what's the specific that this business is doing. You know, the classic issues of, you know, how do you go to market, how do you create a competitive mode? What are the things that give you real, enduring value that people will pay for in some way in a business?All of the, those questions still apply, but the, but, but there's gonna be a panoply of answers, depending on the different models of how it playsEric: Do you think spend on this space in terms of computing will be larger in ‘24 and then larger in 25?Reid: Yes. Unquestionably,Eric: We're on the, we're still on the rise.Reid: Oh, yes. Unquestionably.Eric: That's great for a certain company that you're on the board of.Reid: Well look, and it's not just great for Microsoft. There are these other ones, you know, AWS, Google, but…Eric: Right. It does feel like Amazon's somewhat sleepy here. Do you have any view there?Reid: Well, I think they have begun to realize, what I've heard from the market is that they've begun to realize that they should have some stuff here. I don't think they've yet gotten fully underway. I think they are trying to train some large language models themselves. I don't know if they've even realized that there is a skill to training those large language models, cause like, you know, sometimes people say, well, you just turn on and you run the, run the large language model, the, the training regime that you read in the papers and then you make stuff.We've seen a lot of failures, of people trying to build these things and failing to do so, so, you know, there's, there's an expertise that you learn in doing it as well. And so I think—Eric: Sorry to interrupt—if Microsoft is around Open AI and Google is around Anthropic, is Amazon gonna be around stability? That's sort of the question that I'll put out to the world. I don't know if you have.Reid: I certainly don't know anything. And in the case of, you know, very, very, very, um, a politely said, um, Anthropic and OpenAI have scale with huge models. Stability is all small models, so, hmm.Eric: Yeah. Interesting. I, I don't think I've asked you sort of directly about sort of stepping off the Open AI board. I mean, I would assume you would prefer to be on the board or…?Reid: Yeah. Well, so look, it was a funny thing because, um, you know, I was getting more and more requests from various Greylock portfolio companies cause we've been investing in AI stuff for over five years. Like real AI, not just the, we call it “software AI”, but actual AI companies.For a while and I was getting more and more requests to do it and I was like oh, you know, what I did before was, well here's the channel. Like here is the guy who, the person who handles the API request goes, go talk to them. Like, why can't you help me? I was like, well, I'm on the board.I have a responsibility to not be doing that. And then I realized that, oh s**t, it's gonna look more and more. Um, I might have a real conflict of interest here, even as we're really carefully navigating it and, and it was really important cause you know various forces are gonna kind of try to question the frankly, super deep integrity of Open AI.It's like, look, I, Sam, I think it might be best even though I remain a fan, an ally, um, to helping, I think it may be best for Open AI. And generally to step off a board to avoid a conflict of interest. And we talked about a bunch and said, okay, fine, we'll do it. And you know, I had dinner with Sam last night and most of what we were talking about was kind of the range of what's going on and what are the important things that open eyes need to solve? And how should we be interfacing with governments so that governments understand? What are the key things that, that, that should be in the mix? And what great future things for humanity are really important not to fumble in the, in the generally, like everyone going, oh, I'm worrying. And then I said, oh, I got a question for you. And he's like, yeah, okay. I'm like, now that I'm no longer on the board, could I ask you to personally look at unblocking, my portfolio company's thing to the API? Because I couldn't ever ask you that question before. Cause I would be unethical. But now I'm not on the board, so can I ask the question?He's like, sure, I'll look into it. I'm like, great, right? And that's the substance of it, which I never would've done before. But that wasn't why, I mean, obviously love Sam and the Open AI team.Eric: The fact that you're sort of a Democratic super donor was that in the calculus? Or, because I mean, we are seeing Republican… well, I didn't think that at all coming into this conversation, but just hearing what you're saying. Looking at it now, it feels like Republicans are like trying to find something to be angry about.Reid: WellEric: These AI things, I don't quite…Reid: The unfortunate thing about the, the most vociferous of the republican media ecosystem is they just invent fiction, like their hallucination full out.Eric: Right.Reid: I mean, it just like, I mean, the amount of just like, you know, 2020 election denial and all the rest, which you can tell from having their text released from Fox News that like, here are these people who are on camera going on where you have a question about, you know, what happened in the election.And they're texting each other going, oh my God, this is insane. This is a coup, you know, da da da. And you're like, okay. Anyway, so, so all like, they don't require truth to generate. Heat and friction. So that was, wasn't that no, no. It's just really, it's kind of the question of, when you're serving on a board, you have to understand what your mission is very deeply and, and to navigate it.And part of the 501(C)(3) boards is to say, look, obviously I contribute by being a board member and helping and navigate various circumstances and all the rest. And, you know, I can continue to be a counselor and an aid to the company not being on the board. And one of the things I think is gonna be very important for the next X years, for the entire world to know is that open AI takes its ethics super seriously,Eric: Right.Reid: As do I.Eric: Does that fit with having to invest? I mean, there are lots of companies that do great things. They have investors. I believe in companies probably more than personally I believe in charities to accomplish things. But the duality of OpenAI is extremely confusing. Like, was Greylock, did Greylock itself invest a lot or you invested early as an angel?Reid: I was the founding investor as an angel, as a, as a program related investment from my foundation. Because like I started, I was among the first people to make a philanthropic donation to Open AI. Just straight out, you know, here's a grant by Wednesday, then Sam and Crew came up with this idea for doing this commercial lp, and I said, look, I, I'll help and I have no idea if this will be an interesting economic investment.They didn't have a business plan, they didn't have a revenue plan, they didn't have a product plan. I brought it to Greylock. We talked about it and they said, look, we think this will be possibly a really interesting technology, but you know, part of our responsibility to our LPs, which you know, includes a whole bunch of universities and else we invest in businesses and there is no business plan.Eric: So is that the Khosla did? Khosla's like we invested wild things. Anyway, we don't care. That's sort of what Vinod wants to project anyway, so yeah.Reid: You know, yes, that's exactly the same. So I put them 50 and then he put in a, I think he was the only venture fund investing in that round. But like, there was no business plan, there was no revenue model, there was no go to market…Eric: Well, Sam basically says, someday we're gonna have AGI and we're gonna ask you how to make a bunch of money? Like, is he, that's a joke, right? Or like, how much is he joking?Reid: It's definitely, it's not a 100% joke and it's not a 0% joke. It's a question around, the mission is really about how do we get to AGI or as close to AGI as useful and to make it useful for humanity. And by the way, the closer you get to AGI, the more interesting technologies fall out, including the ability to have the technology itself solve various problems.So if you said, we have a business model problem, it's like, well ask the thing. Now, if you currently sit down and ask, you know, ChatGPT what the business model is, you'll get something pretty vague and generic that wouldn't get you a meeting with a venture capitalist because it's like “we will have ad supported”... you're like, okay. Right.Eric: Don't you have a company that's trying to do pitch decks now or something?Reid: Oh yeah, Tome. No, and it's awesome, but by the way, that's the right kind of thing. Because, because what it does is you say, hey, give me a set of tiles, together with images and graphics and things arguing X and then you start working with the AI to improve it. Say, oh, I need a slide that does this and I need a catchier headline here, and, and you know, da da da.And then you, and you know, obviously you can edit it yourself and so on. So that's the kind of amplification. Now you don't say, give me my business model, right?Eric: You're like, I have this business model, like articulate it.Reid: Exactly.Eric: Um, I, politics, I mean, I feel like we, we live through such like a… you know what I mean, I feel like Silicon Valley, you know, has like, worked on PE everybody be able to, you know, everybody can get along. There's sort of competition, but then you sort of still stay close to any, everybody like, you, you especially like are good, you know, you you are in the PayPal mafia with a lot of people who are fairly very conservative now.The Trump years broke that in some ways and particular, and that, yeah. So how did you maintain those relationships?I see headlines that say you're friends with Peter Thiel. What is, what's the state of your friendship with Peter Thiel and how, how did it survive?I guess the Trump years is the question.Reid: Well, I think the thing that Peter and I learned when we were undergraduate at Stanford together is it's very important to… cause we, you know, I was a lefty. He was a righty. We'd argue a lot to maintain conversation and to argue things. It's difficult to argue on things that feel existential and it's ethically challenged is things around Trump. You know, the, you know, Trump feels to be a corrosive asset upon our democracy that is disfiguring us and staining us to the world. And so to have a dispassionate argument about it is, it's challenging. And it ends up with some uneven ground and statements like, I can't believe you're f*****g saying that, as part of dialogue.But on the other hand, you know, maintaining dialogue is I think part of how we make progress as society. And I basically sympathetic to people as long as they are legitimately and earnestly and committed to the dialogue and discussion of truth between them and committed otherwise.And so, you know, there are folks from the PayPal years that I don't really spend much time talking to, right?. There are others that I do because that conversation about discovering who we are and who we should be is really important. And you can't allow your own position to be the definer.It almost goes back to what we were talking about, the AI side, which is make sure you're talking to other smart people who challenge you to make sure you're doing the right thing. And that's, I think, a good general life principle.Eric: Well, you know, I feel like part of what my dream of like the Silicon Valley world is that we have these, you know, we have, Twitter is like the open forum. We're having sincere sort of on the level debates, but then you see something like, you know, the…Reid: You don't think it's the modern Seinfeld show I got? Well, not Seinfeld, um, Springer, Jerry Springer.Eric: Yeah, that's, yeah. Right. But I just feel like the sort of like, if the arguments are on the level issue is my problem with some of the sort of, I don't know, Peter Theil arguments, that he's not actually publicly advancing his beliefs in a sincere way, and that that's almost more corrosive.Reid: Oh, that's totally corrosive. And as much as that's happening, it's terrible. And that's one of the things that I, um, you know, in conversations I have, I push people including Peter on a lot.Eric: Yeah. Are you still, are you still gonna donate a lot, or what was, what's your, are you as animated about the Democratic party and working through sort of donor channels at the moment?Reid: Well, what I would say is I think that we have a responsibility to try to make, like with, it's kind of the Spider-Man ethics. With power comes responsibility, with wealth comes responsibility, and you have to try to help contribute to… what is the better society that we should be living and navigating in?And so I stay committed on that basis. And I do think there are some really amazing people in the administration. I think Biden is kind of a good everyday guy.Eric: Yeah.Reid: In fact, good for trying to build bridges in the country. I think there are people like Secretary Raimondo and Secretary Buttigieg who are thinking intensely about technology and what should be done in the future.And I think there's other folks now, I think there's a bunch of folks on the democratic side that I think are more concerned with their demagoguery than they are with the right thing in society. And so I tend to be, you know, unsympathetic to, um, you know…Eric: I know, Michael Moritz, it's Sequoia, that oped sort of criticizing San Francisco government, you know, and there's, there's certainly this sort of woke critique of the Democratic Party. I'm curious if there's a piece of it sort of outside of he governance that you're…Reid: Well, the interesting thing about woke is like, well, we're anti woke. And you're like, well, don't you think being awake is a good thing? I mean, it's kind of a funny thing. Eric: And sort of the ill-defined nature of woke is like key to the allegation because it's like, what's the substantive thing you're saying there? And you know, I mean we we're seeing Elon tweet about race right now, which is sort of terrifying anyway.Reid: Yeah. I think the question on this stuff is to try to say, look, people have a lot of different views and a lot of different things and some of those views are, are bad, especially in kind of minority and need to be advocated against in various… part of why we like democracy is to have discourse.I'm very concerned about the status of public discourse. And obviously most people tend to focus that around social media, which obviously has some legitimate things that we need to talk about. But on the other hand, they don't track like these, like opinion shows on, like, Fox News that represent themselves implicitly as news shows and saying, man, this is the following thing.Like there's election fraud in 2020, and then when they're sued for the various forms of deformation, they say, we're just an entertainment show. We don't do anything like news. So we have that within that we are already struggling on a variety of these issues within society. and we, I think we need to sort them all out.Eric: Is there anything on the AI front that we missed or that you wanted to make sure to talk about? I think we covered so much great ground. Reid: And, and we can do it again, right. You know, it's all, it's great.Eric: I love it. This was all the things you're interested in and I'm interested in, so great. I really enjoyed having you on the podcast and thanks.Reid: Likewise. And, you know, I follow the stuff you do and it's, it's, it's cool and keep doing it. Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe

For the first episode of the Newcomer podcast, I sat down with Reid Hoffman — the PayPal mafia member, LinkedIn co-founder, Greylock partner, and Microsoft board member. Hoffman had just stepped off OpenAI's board of directors. Hoffman traced his interest in artificial intelligence back to a conversation with Elon Musk.“This kicked off, actually, in fact, with a dinner with Elon Musk years ago,” Hoffman said. Musk told Hoffman that he needed to dive into artificial intelligence during conversations about a decade ago. “This is part of how I operate,” Hoffman remembers. “Smart people from my network tell me things, and I go and do things. And so I dug into it and I'm like, ‘Oh, yes, we have another wave coming.'”This episode of Newcomer is brought to you by VantaSecurity is no longer a cost center — it's a strategic growth engine that sets your business apart. That means it's more important than ever to prove you handle customer data with the utmost integrity. But demonstrating your security and compliance can be time-consuming, tedious, and expensive. Until you use Vanta.Vanta's enterprise-ready Trust Management Platform empowers you to:* Centralize and scale your security program* Automate compliance for the most sought-after frameworks, including SOC 2, ISO 27001, and GDPR* Earn and maintain the trust of customers and vendors alikeWith Vanta, you can save up to 400 hours and 85% of costs. Win more deals and enable growth quickly, easily, and without breaking the bank.For a limited time, Newcomer listeners get $1,000 off Vanta. Go to vanta.com/newcomer to get started.Why I Wanted to Talk to Reid Hoffman & What I Took AwayHoffman is a social network personified. Even his journey to something as wonky as artificial intelligence is told through his connections with people. In a world of algorithms and code, Hoffman is upfront about the extent to which human connections decide Silicon Valley's trajectory. (Of course they are paired with profound technological developments that are far larger than any one person or network.)When it comes to the rapidly developing future powered by large language models, a big question in my mind is who exactly decides how these language models work? Sydney appeared in Microsoft Bing and then disappeared. Microsoft executives can dispatch our favorite hallucinations without public input. Meanwhile, masses of images can be gobbled up without asking their creators and then the resulting image generation tools can be open-sourced to the world. It feels like AI super powers come and go with little notice. It's a world full of contradictions. There's constant talk of utopias and dystopias and yet startups are raising conventional venture capital financing.The most prominent player in artificial intelligence — OpenAI — is a non-profit that raised from Tiger Global. It celebrates its openness in its name and yet competes with companies whose technology is actually open-sourced. OpenAI's governance structure and priorities largely remain a mystery. Finally, unlike tech's conservative billionaires who throw their money into politics, in the case of Hoffman, here is a tech overlord that I seem to mostly agree with politically. I wanted to know what that would be like. Is it just good marketing? And where exactly is his heart and political head at right now?I thought he delivered. I didn't feel like he was dodging my questions, even in a world where maintaining such a wide network requires diplomacy. Hoffman seemed eager and open — even if he started to bristle at what he called my “edgy words.”Some Favorite QuotesWe covered a lot of ground in our conversation. We talked about AI sentience and humans' failures to identify consciousness within non-human beings. We talked about the coming rise in AI cloud compute spending and how Microsoft, Google, and Amazon are positioned in the AI race.Hoffman said he had one major condition for getting involved in OpenAI back in the early days when Musk was still on board.“My price for participation was to ask Elon to stop saying the word “robocalypse,” Hoffman told me. “Because I thought that the problem was it's very catchy and it evokes fear.”I asked Hoffman why he thought Musk got involved in artificial intelligence in the first place when Musk seems so worried about how it might develop. Why get the ball rolling down the hill at all, I wondered?Hoffman replied that many people in the field of artificial intelligence had “messiah complexes.”“It's the I am the one who must bring this — Prometheus, the fire to humanity,” Hoffman said. “And you're like, ‘Okay, I kind of think it should be us versus an individual.'” He went on, “Now, us can't be 8 billion people — us is a small group. But I think, more or less, you see the folks who are steering with a moral compass try to say, how do I get at least 10 to 15 people beyond myself with their hands on the steering wheel in deep conversations in order to make sure you get there? And then let's make sure that we're having the conversations with the right communities.”I raised the possibility that this merely suggested oligarchic control of artificial intelligence rather than dictatorial control. We also discussed Hoffman's politics, including his thoughts on Joe Biden and “woke” politics. I asked him about the state of his friendship with fellow PayPal mafia member Peter Thiel. “I basically am sympathetic to people as long as they are legitimately and earnestly committed to the dialogue and discussion of truth between them and not committed otherwise,” Hoffman said. “There are folks from the PayPal years that I don't really spend much time talking to. There are others that I do continue because that conversation about discovering who we are and who we should be is really important. And you can't allow your own position to be the definer.”I suggested that Thiel's public views sometimes seemed insincere.“Oh, that's totally corrosive,” Hoffman said. “And as much as that's happening, it's terrible. And that's one of the things that in conversations I have, I push people, including Peter, on a lot.”Give it a listen.Find the PodcastRead the TranscriptEric: Reid, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm very excited for this conversation. You know, I'm getting ready for my own AI conference at the end of this month, so hopefully this is sort of a prep by the end of this conversation, we'll all be super smart and ready for that. I feel like there've been so many rounds of sort of AI as sort of the buzzword of the day.This clearly seems the hottest. When did you get into this moment of it? I mean, obviously you just stepped off the Open AI board. You were on that board. Like how, when did you start to see this movement that we're experiencing right now coming.Reid: Well, it's funny because my undergraduate major was artificial intelligence and cognitive science. So I've, I've been around the hoop for multiple waves for a long time and I think this kicked off actually, in fact, with a dinner with Elon Musk years ago. You know, 10-ish years ago, Elon and I would have dinner about once a quarter and he's like, well, are you paying attention to this AI stuff?And I'm like, well, I majored in it and you know, I know about this stuff. He's like, no, you need to get back involved. And I was like, all right. This is part of how I operate is smart people from my network tell me things and I go and do things. And so I dug into it and I went, oh yes, we have another wave coming.And this was probably about seven or eight years ago, when I, when I saw the beginning of the wave or the seismic event. Maybe it was a seismic event out at sea and I was like, okay, there's gonna be a tsunami here and we should start getting ready cause the tsunami is actually gonna be amazingly great and interesting.Eric: And that—is that the beginning of Open AI?Reid: Open AI is later. What I did is I went and made connections with the kind of the heads of every AI lab and major company because I concluded that I thought that the AI revolution will be primarily driven by large companies initially because of the scale compute requirements.And so, you know, talked to Demis Hassabis, met Mustafa Suleyman, talked to Yann LeCun, talked to Jeff Dean, you know, all these kind of folks and kind of, you know, built all that. And then it was later in conversations with Sam and Elon that I said, look, we need to do something that's a for pro humanity. Not just commercial effort. And my price for participation, cause I thought it was a great idea, but my price for participation was to ask Elon to stop saying the word robocalypse. Because I thought that the problem was that it's very catchy and it evokes fear. And actually, in fact, one of the things I think about this whole area is that it's so much more interesting and has so much amazing opportunity for humanity.A little bit like, I don't know if you saw the Atlantic article I wrote that we evolve ourselves through technology and I'm, you know, going to be doing some writings around describing AI as augmented intelligence versus artificial intelligence. And I wanted to kind of build that positive, optimistic case that I think is the higher probability that I think we can shape towards and so forth.So it's like, okay, I'm in, but no more Robocalypse.Eric: I appreciate the ultimate sort of network person that you tell the story through people. I always appreciate when the origin stories of technology actually come through the human beings. With Elon in particular, I'm sort of confused by his position because it seems like he's very afraid of AI.And if that's the case, why would you want to, like, do anything to sort of get the ball rolling down the hill? Like, isn't there a sort of just like, stay away from it, man, if you think it's so bad. How do you see his thinking? And I'm sure it's evolved.Reid: Well, I think his instinct for the good and the challenging of this is he tends to think AI will only be good if I'm the one who's in control.Eric: Sort of, yeah.Reid: Yeah. And this is actually somewhat replete within the modern AI field. Not everybody but this. And Elon is a public enough figure that I think, you know, making this comment of him is not talking at a school.Other people would, there's a surprising number of Messiah complexes in the field of AI, and, and it's the, I am the one who must bring this, you know, Prometheus, you know, the Fire to humanity. And you're like, okay, I kind of think it should be us, right? Versus an individual. Now us can't be 8 billion people, us as a small group, but I think more or less you see the, the folks who are steering with a moral compass try to say, how do I get at least 10 to 15 people beyond myself with their hands on the steering wheel in deep conversations in order to make sure you get there and then let, let's make sure that we're having the conversations with the right communities.Like if you say, well, is this going to, you know, institutionalize, ongoing, um, you know, power structures or racial bias, something else? Well, we're talking to the people to make sure that we're going to minimize that, especially over time and navigate it as a real issue. And so those are the, like, that's the kind of anti Messiah complex, which, which is more or less the efforts that I tend to get involved in.Eric: Right. At least sort of oligarchy, of AI control instead of just dictatorship of it.Reid: Well, yeah, and it depends a little bit, even on oligarchy, look, things are built by small numbers of people. It's just a fact, right? Like, there aren't more than, you know, a couple of founders, maybe maximum five in any, any particular thing. There is, you know, there's reasons why. When you have a construction project, you have a head of construction, right?Et cetera. The important thing is to make sure that's why you have, why you have a CEO, you have a board of directors. That's why you have, you know, you say, well, do we have the right thing where a person is accountable to a broader group? And that broader group feels their governance responsibility seriously.So oligarchy is a—Eric: a chargedReid: is a charged word. And I,Eric: There's a logic to it. I'm not, I'm not using it to say it doesn't make sense that you want the people to really understand it around, around it. Um, I mean, specifically with Open AI, I mean, you, you just stepped off the board. You're also on the board of Microsoft, which is obviously a very significant player.In this future, I mean, it's hard to be open. I get a little frustrated with the “open” in “Open AI” because I feel like there's a lot that I don't understand. I'm like, maybe they should change the name a little bit, but is it still a charity in your mind? I mean, it's obviously raised from Tiger Global, the ultimate prophet maker.Like, how should we think about the sort of core ambitions of Open AI?Reid: Well, um, one, the board I was on was a fine one and they've been very diligent about making sure that all of the controls, including for the subsidiary company are from the 501(C)(3) and diligent to its mission, which is staffed by people on the 501(C)(3) board with the responsibilities of being on a 5 0 1 board, which is being in service of the mission, not doing, you know, private inurement and other kinds of things.And so I actually think it is fundamentally still a 501(C)(3). The challenge is if you kind of say, you look at this and say, well, in order to be a successful player in the modern scale AI, you need to have billions of dollars of compute. Where do you get those billions of dollars? Because, you know, the foundations and the philanthropy industry is generally speaking bad at tech and bad at anything other than little tiny checks in tech.And so you said, well, it's really important to do this. So part of what I think, you know, Sam and that group of folks came up with this kind of clever thing to say, well, look, we're about beneficial AI, we're about AI for humanity. We're about making an, I'll make a comment on “open” in a second, but we are gonna generate some commercially valuable things.What if we struck a commercial deal? So you can have the commercial things or you can share the commercial things. You invest in us in order to do this, and then we make sure that the AI has the right characteristics. And then the “open”, you know, all short names have, you know, some simplicities to them.The idea is open to the world in terms of being able to use it and benefit from it. It doesn't mean the same thing as open source because AI is actually one of those things where opening, um, where you could do open source, you could actually be creating something dangerous. As a modern example, last year, Open AI deliberately… DALL·E 2 was ready four months before it went out. I know cause I was playing with it. They did the four months to do safety training and the kind of safety training is, well, let's make sure that individuals can't be libeled. Let's make sure you can't create as best we can, child sexual material. Let's make sure you can't do revenge porn and we'll serve it through the API and we'll make it unchangeable on that.And then the open source people come out and they go do whatever you want and then wow, you get all this crazy, terrible stuff. So “open” is openness of availability, but still with safety and still with, kind of call it the pro-human controls. And that's part of what OpenAI means in this.Eric: I wrote in sort of a mini essay in the newsletter about, like tech fatalism and it fits into your sort of messiah complex that you're talking about, if I'm a young or new startup entrepreneur, it's like this is my moment if I hold back, you know, there's a sense that somebody else is gonna do it too. This isn't necessarily research. Some of the tools are findable, so I need to do it. If somebody's going to, it's easy if you're using your own personhood to say, I'm better than that guy! Even if I have questions about it, I should do it. So that, I think we see that over and over again. Obviously the stakes with AI, I think we both agree are much larger.On the other hand, with AI, there's actually, in my view, been a little bit more restraint. I mean, Google has been a little slower. Facebook seems a little worried, like, I don't know. How do you agree with that sort of view of tech fatalism? Is there anything to be done about it or it's just sort of—if it's possible, it's gonna happen, so the best guy, the best team should do it?Or, or how do you think about that sense of inevitability on if it's possible, it'll be built?Reid: Well, one thing is you like edgy words, so what you describe is tech fatalism, I might say as something more like tech inevitability or tech destiny. And part of it is what, I guess what I would say is for example, we are now in a AI moment and era. There's global competition for it. It's scale compute.It's not something that even somebody like a Google or someone else can kind of have any kind of, real ball control on. But the way I look at it is, hey, look, there's, there's utopic outcomes and dystopic outcomes and it's within our control to steer it. Um, and even to steer it at speed, even under competition because.For example, obviously the general discourse within media is, oh my God, what's happening with the data and what's gonna happen with the bias and what's gonna happen with the crazy conversations, with Bing Chat and all the rest of this stuff. And you're like, well, what am I obsessed about? I'm obsessed about the fact that I have line of sight to an AI tutor and an AI doctor on every cell phone.And think about if you delay that, whatever number of years you delay that, what your human cost is of delaying that, right? And it's like, how do we get that? And for example, people say, wow, the real issue is that Bing chat model is gonna go off the rails and have a drunken cocktail party conversation because it's provoked to do so and can't run away from the person who's provoking it.Uh, and you say, well, is that the real issue? Or is it a real issue? Let's make sure that as many people as we can have access to that AI doctor have access to that AI tutor that where, where we can, where not only, you know, cause obviously technology cause it's expensive initially benefits elites and people are rich.And by the way, that's a natural way of how our capitalist system and all the rest works. But let's try to get it to everyone else as quickly as possible, right?Eric: I a hundred percent agree with that. So I don't want any of my sort of, cynical take like, oh my God, this version.I'd also extend it, you know, I think you're sort of referencing maybe the Sydney situation where you have Kevin Rus in New York Times, you know, communicating with Bing's version of ChatGPT and sort of finding this character who's sort of goes by Sydney from the origin story.And Ben Thompson sort of had a similar experience. And I would almost say it's sad for the world to be deprived of that too. You know, there's like a certain paranoia, it's like, it's like, oh, I wanna meet this sort of seemingly intelligent character. I don't know. What do you make of that whole episode? I mean, people really, I mean, Ben Thompson, smart tech writers really latched onto this as something that they found moving.I don't know. Is there anything you take away from that saga and do you think we'll see those sort of, I don't know, intelligent characters again,Reid: Well for sure. I think 2023 will be at least the first year of the so-called chatbot. Not just because of ChatGPT. And I think that we will have a bunch of different chat bots. I think we'll have chatbots that are there to be, you know, entertainment companions, witty dialogue participants.I think we'll have chatbots that are there to be information like Insta, Wikipedia, kind of things. I think we'll have chatbots that are there to just have someone to talk to. So I think there'll be a whole, whole range of things. And I think we will have all that experience.And I think part of the thing is to say, look, what are the parameters by which you should say the bots should absolutely not do X. And it's fine if these people want a bot that's like, you know, smack talking and these people want something that you know, goes, oh heck. Right?You know, like, what's, what's the range of that? And obviously children get in the mix and, and the questions around things that we already encounter a lot with search, which is like could a chat bot enable self-harm in a way that would be really bad?Let's really try to make sure that someone who's depressed doesn't figure out a way to harm themselves either with search or with chat bots.Eric: Is there a psychologically persuasive, so it's not just the information provided, it's the sense that they might be like walking you towards something less serious.Reid: And they are! This is the thing that's amazing. and it's part of the reason why like everyone should have some interaction with these in some emotional, tangible way. We are really passing the Turing test. This is the thing that I had visibility on a few years ago because I was like, okay, we kind of judge, you know, intelligence and sentience like that, Google engineers like it.I asked if it was conscious and it said it was because we use language as a way of doing that. And you're like, well, but look, that tells you that your language use is not quite fully there. And because part of what's really amazing about, “hallucinations”—and I'm probably gonna do a fireside chat with the gray matter thing on hallucinations, maybe later this week—where the hallucination is, on one hand it says this amazingly accurate, wonderful thing, very persuasively, and then it says this other thing really persuasively that's total fiction, right? And you're like, wow, you sound very persuasive in both cases. But that one's true and that one's fiction.And that's part of the reason why I kind of go back to the augmented intelligence and all the things that I see going on with in 2023 is much less replacement and much more augmentation. It's not zero replacement, but it's much more augmentation in terms of how this plays. And that is super exciting.Eric: Yeah. I mean, to some degree it reflects sort of the weakness in human beings' own abilities to read what's happening. Ahead of this interview, I was talking to the publicly available ChatGPT. I don't know if you saw but I was asking it for questions and I felt like it delivered a very reasonable set of questions. You know, you've written about Blitzscaling, so [ChatGPT] is like, let's ask about that. It's, you know, ask in the context of Microsoft. But when I was like, have you [ChatGPT] ever watched Joe Rogan? Have you ever been on a podcast? Sometimes maybe you should have a long sort of, you should have a statement like I'm doing right now where I sort of have some things I'm saying.Then I ask a question. Other times it should be short and sweet. Sometimes it, you know, annoys you and says oligarchy, like explaining to the chat bot. [In an interview, a journalist] can't just ask a list of like, straightforward questions and it felt like it didn't really even get that. And I get that there's some sort of, we're, we're starting to have a conversation now with companies like Jasper, where it's almost like the language prompting itself.I think Sam Altman was maybe saying it's like almost a form of plain language like coding because you have to figure out how to get what you want out of them. And maybe it was just my failure to explain it, but as a journalist replacing questions, I didn't find the current model of ChatGPT really capable of that.Reid: No, that's actually one of the things on the ChatGPT I find is, like, for example, you ask what questions to ask Reid Hoffman in a podcast interview, and you'll get some generic ones. It'll say like, well, what's going on with new technologies like AI and, and what's going on in Silicon Valley? And you know, and you're like, okay, sure.But those aren't the really interesting questions. That's not what makes me a great journalist, which is kind of a lens to something that people can learn from and that will evolve and change that'll get better. But that's again, one of the reasons why I think it's a people plus machine. Because for example, if I were to say, hey, what should I ask Eric about? Or what should I talk to Eric about and go to? Yeah, gimme some generic stuff. Now if I said, oh, give me a briefing on, um, call it, um, UN governance systems as they apply to AI, because I want to be able to talk about this. I didn't do this, but it would give me a kind of a quick Wikipedia briefing and that would make my conversation more interesting and I might be able to ask a question about the governance system or something, you know, as a way of doing it.And that's what AI is, I think why the combo is so great. Um, and anyway, so that's what we should be aiming towards. It isn't to say, by the way, sometimes like replacement is a good thing. For example, you go to autonomous vehicles and say, hey, look, if we could wave a wand and every car on the road today would be an autonomous vehicle, we'd probably save, we'd probably go from 40,000 deaths in the US per, you know, year to, you know, maybe a thousand or 2000. And you're like, you're shaving 38,000 lives a year, in doing this. It's a good thing. And, you know, it will have a positive vector on gridlocks and for climate change and all the rest of the stuff.And you go, okay, that replacement, yes, we have to navigate truck jobs and all the rest, but that replacement's good. But I think a lot of it is going to end up being, you know, kind of, various forms of amplification. Like if you get to journalists, you go, oh, it'll help me ask, figure out which interesting questions to add.Not because it'll just go here, here's your script to ask questions. But you can get better information to prep your thinking on it.Eric: Yeah. I'm glad you brought up like the self-driving car case and, you know, you're, are you still on the board of Aurora?Reid: I am.Eric: I've, you know, I covered Uber, so I was in their self-driving cars very early, and they made a lot of promises. Lyft made a lot of promises.I mean, I feel like part of my excitement about this sort of generative AI movement is that it feels like it doesn't require completeness in the same way that self-driving cars do. You know? And that, that, that's been a barrier to self-driving cars. On the flip side, you know, sometimes we sort of wave away the inaccuracy and then we say, you know, we sort of manage it.I think that's what we were sort of talking about earlier. You imagine it in some of the completeness that could come. So I guess the question here is just do you think, what I'm calling the completeness problem. I guess just the idea that it needs to be sort of fully capable will be an issue with the large language models or do you think you have this sort of augmented model where it could sort of stop now and still be extremely useful to much of society?Reid: I think it could stop now and be extremely useful. I've got line of sight on current technology for a tutor, for a doctor, for a bunch of other stuff. One of the things my partner and I wrote last year was that within five years, there's gonna be a co-pilot for every profession.The way to think about that is what professionals do. They process information, they take some kind of action. Sometimes that's generating other information, just like you see with Microsoft's co-pilot product for engineers. And what you can see happening with DallE and other image generation for graphic designers, you'll see this for every professional, that there will be a co-pilot on today's technology that can be built.That's really amazing. I do think that as you continue to make progress, you can potentially make them even more amazing, because part of what happened when you move from, you know, GPT3 to 3.5, which is all of a sudden it can write sonnets. Right? You didn't really know that it was gonna be able to write sonnets.That's giving people superpowers. Most people, including myself—I mean, look, I could write a sonnet if you gave me a couple of days and a lot of coffee and a lot of attempts to really try.Eric: But you wouldn't.Reid: You wouldn't. Yeah. But now I can go, oh, you know, I'd like to, to, um, write a sonnet about my friend Sam Altman.And I can go down and I can sit there and I can kind of type, you know, duh da, and I can generate, well, I don't like that one. Oh, but then I like this one, you know, and da da da. And, and that, that gives you superpowers. I mean, think about what you can do for writing, a whole variety of things with that. And that I think the more and more completeness is the word you are using is I think also a powerful thing. Even though what we have right now is amazing.Eric: Is GPT4 a big improvement over what we have? I assume you've seen a fair bit of unreleased, stuff. Like how hyped should we be about the improvement level?Reid: I have. I'm not really allowed to say very much about it cause, you know, part of the responsibilities of former board members and confidentiality. But I do think that it will be a nice—I think people will look at it and go, Ooh, that's cool. And it will be another iteration, another thing as amazing as ChatGPT has, and obviously that's kind of in the last few months. It's kind of taken the world by storm, opening up this vista of imagination and so forth.I think GPT4 will be another step forward where people will go, Ooh, that's, that, that's another cool thing. I think that's—can't be more specific than that, but watch this space cause it'll be cool.Eric: Throughout this conversation we've danced around this sort of artificial general intelligence question. starting with the discussion of Elon and the creation of eventually Open AI. I'm curious how close you think we are with AGI and this idea of a sort of, I mean, people define it so many different ways, you know, it's more sophisticated than humans in some tasks, you know, mini tasks, whatever.How, how do you think we're far from that? Or how, how, how do you see that playing out?Reid: Personally amongst a lot of the people who are in the field, I'm probably on the, we're-much-further-than-we-think stage. Now, some of that's because I've lived through this before with my undergraduate degree and the, you know, the pattern generally is, oh my God, we've gotten this computer to do this amazing thing that we thought was formally the provence of only these cognitive human beings.And it could do that. So then by the way, in 10 years it'll be solving new science problems like fusion and all the rest. And if you go back to the seventies, you saw that same dialogue. I mean, it, it's, it's an ongoing thing. Now we do have a more amazing set of cognitive capabilities than we did before, and there are some reasons to argue that it could be in a decade or two. Because you say, well, these large language models can enable coding and that coding can all, can then be self, reflective and generative, and that can then make something go. But when I look at the coding and how that works right now, it doesn't generate the kind of code that's like, oh, that's amazing new code.It helps with the, oh, I want to do a parser for quick sort, right? You know, like that kind of stuff. And it's like, okay, that's great. Or a systems integration use of an API or calling in an API for a spellchecker or whatever. Like it's really helpful stuff on engineers, but it's not like, oh my God, it's now inventing the new kind of training of large scale models techniques.And so I think even some of the great optimists will tell you of the great, like believers that it'll be soon and say there's one major invention. And the thing is, once you get to one major invention, is that one major invention? Is that three major inventions? Is it 10 major inventions?Like I think we are some number of major inventions away. I don't, I certainly don't think it's impossible to get there.Eric: Sorry. The major inventions are us human beings build, building things into the system or…?Reid: Yeah. Like for example, you know, can it do, like, for example, a classic, critique of a lot of large language models is can it do common sense reasoning.Eric: Gary Marcus is very…Reid: Exactly. Right. Exactly. And you know, the short answer right now is the large language models are approximating common sense reasoning.Now they're doing it in a powerful and interesting enough way that you're like, well, that's pretty useful. It's pretty helpful about what it's doing, but I agree that it's not yet doing all of that. And also you get problems like, you know, what are called one shot learning. Can you learn from one instance of it?Cause currently the training requires lots and lots of compute processing over days or in self play, can you have an accurate memory store that you update? Like for example, you say now fact X has happened, your entire world based on fact X. Look, there's a bunch of this stuff to all go.And the question is, is that one major invention is that, you know, five major inventions, and by the way, major inventions or major inventions even all the amazing stuff we've done over the last five to 10 years. Major inventions on major inventions. So I myself tend to be two things on the AGI one.I tend to think it's further than most people think. And I don't know if that further is it's 10 years versus five or 20 years versus 10 or 50 years versus 20. I don't, I don't really know.Eric: In your lifetime, do you think?Reid: It's possible, although I don't know. But let me give two other lenses I think on the AGI question cause the other thing that people tend to do is they tend to go, there's like this AI, which is technique machine learning, and there's totally just great, it's augmented intelligence and then there's AGI and who knows what happens with AGI.And you say, well first is AGI is a whole range of possible things. Like what if you said, Hey, I can build something that's the equivalent of a decent engineer or decent doctor, but to run it costs me $200 an hour and I have AGI? But it's $200 an hour. And you're like, okay, well that's cool and that means we can, we can get as many of them as we need. But it's expensive. And so it isn't like all of a sudden, you know, Terminator or you know, or inventing fusion or something like that is AGI and or a potential version of AGI. So what is AGI is the squishy thing that people then go, magic. The second thing is, the way that I've looked at the progress in the last five to eight years is we're building a set of iteratively better savants, right?It just like the chess player was a savant. Um, and, and the savants are interestingly different now. When does savant become a general intelligence and when might savant become a general super intelligence? I don't know. It's obviously a super intelligence already in some ways. Like for example, I wouldn't want to try to play, go against it and win, try to win.It's a super intelligence when it comes, right? But like okay, that's great cause in our perspective, having some savants like this that are super intelligence is really helpful to us. So, so the whole AGI discussion I think tends to go a little bit Hollywood-esque. You know, it's not terminator.Eric: I mean, there there is, there's a sort of argument that could be made. I mean, you know, humans are very human-centric about our beliefs and our intelligence, right? We don't have a theory of mind for other animals. It's very hard for us to prove that other species, you know, have some experience of consciousness like qualia or whatever.Reid: Very philosophically good use of a term by the way.Eric: Thank you. Um, I studied philosophy though. I've forgotten more than I remember. But, um, you know, I mean…Reid: Someday we'll figure out what it's like to be a bat. Probably not this time.Eric: Right, right, exactly. Is that, that's Nagel. If the machine's better than me at chess and go there, there's a level of I, you know, here I am saying it doesn't have an experience, but it, it's so much smarter than me in certain domains.I don't, I, the question is just like, it seems like humans are not capable of seeing what it's like to be a bat. So will we ever really be able to sort of convince ourselves that there's something that it's like to be, um, an AGI system?Reid: Well, I think the answer is um, yes, but it will require a bunch of sophistication. Like one of the things I think is really interesting about, um, as we anthropomorphize the world a little bit and I think some of this machine. Intelligence stuff will, will enable us to do that is, well what does it mean to understand X or, or, or, or no X or experience X or have qualia or whatever else.And right now what we do is we say, well it's some king of shadowy image from being human. So we tend to undercount like animals intelligence. And people tend to be surprised like, look, you know, some animals mate for life and everything else, they clearly have a theory of the world and it's clearly stuff we're doing.We go, ah, they don't have the same kind of consciousness we do. And you're like, well they certainly don't have the same kind of consciousness, but we're not doing a very good job of studying like what the, where it's similar in order it's different. And I think we're gonna need to broaden that out outcome to start saying, well, when you compare us and an eagle or a dolphin or a whale or a chimpanzee or a lion, you know, what are the similarities and and differences?And how this works. And um, and I think that will also then be, well, what happens when it's a silicon substrate? You know? Do we, do we think that consciousness requires a biological substrate? If so, why? Um, and, you know, part of how, of course we get to understand, um, each other's consciousness as we, we get this depth of experience.Where I realize is it isn't, you're just a puppet.Eric:  [laughs] I am, I am just a puppet.Reid: Well, we're, we're talking to each other through Riverside, so, you know, who knows, right. You know, deep fakes and all that.Eric: The AI's already ahead of you. You know, I'm just, it's already, no.Reid: Yeah. I think we're gonna have to get more sophisticated on that question now.I think it's, it's too trivial to say because it can mimic language in particularly interesting ways. And it says, yes, I'm conscious that that makes it conscious. Like that's not, that's not what we use as an instance. And, and part of it is like, do you understand the like part of how we've come to understand each other's consciousness is we realize that we experience things in similar ways.We feel joy in similar, we feel pain in similar ways and that kinda stuff. And that's part of how we begin to understand. And I think it'll be really good that this may kick off kind of us being slightly less kind of call it narcissistically, anthropocentric in this and a broader concept as we look at this.Eric: You know, I was talking to my therapist the other day and I was saying, you know, oh, I did this like kind gesture, but I didn't feel like some profound, like, I don't, it just seemed like the right thing to do. I did it. It felt like I did the right thing should, you know, shouldn't I feel like more around it?And you know, her perspective was much more like, oh, what matters is like doing the thing, not sort of your internal states about it. Which to me would, would go to the, if the machine can, can do all the things we expect from sort of a caring type type machine. Like why do we need to spend all this time when we don't even expect that of humans to always feel the right feelings.Reid: I totally agree with you. Look, I think the real question is what you do. Now that being said, part of how we predict what you do is that, you know, um, you may not have like at that moment gone, haha, I think of myself as really good cause I've done this kind thing. Which by the way, might be a better human thing as opposed to like, I'm doing this cause I'm better than most people.Eric: Right.Reid: Yeah, but it's the pattern in which you engage in these things and part of the feelings and so forth is cause that creates a kind of a reliability of pattern of do you see other people? Do you have the aspiration to have, not just yourself, but the people around you leading better and improving lives.And obviously if that's the behavior that we're seeing from these things, then that's a lot of it. And the only question is, what's that forward looking momentum on it? And I think amongst humans that comes to an intention, a model of the world and so forth. You know, amongst, amongst machines that mean just maybe the no, no, we're aligned.Well, like, we've done a really good alignment with human progress.Eric: Do you think there will be a point in time where it's like an ethical problem to unplug it? Like I think of like a bear, right? Like a bear is dangerous. You know, there are circumstances where pretty comfortable. Killing the bear,But if the bear like hasn't actually done anything, we've taken it under our care. Like we don't just like shoot bears at zoos, you know? Do you think there's a point where like, and it costs us money to sustain the bear at a zoo, do you think there are cases where we might say, oh man, now there's an ethical question around unpluggingReid: I think it's a when, not an if.Eric: Yeah.Reid: Right? I mean, it may be a when, once again, just like AGI, that's a fair way's out. But it's a when, not an if. And by the way, I think that's again, part of the progress that we make because we think about like, how should we be treating it? Because, you know, like for example, if you go back a hundred, 150 years, the whole concept of animal rights doesn't exist in humans.You know, it's like, hey, you wanna, you want to torture animal X to death, you know, like you're queer, but you're, you're, you're allowed to do that. That's an odd thing for you to do. And maybe it's kind of like, like distasteful, like grungy bad in some way, but , you know, it's like, okay. Where's now you're like, oh, that person is, is like going out to try to go torture animals! We should like get them in an institution, right? Like, that's not okay. You know, what is that further progress for the rights and lives? And I think it will ultimately come to things that we think are, when it gets to kind of like things that have their own agency and have their own consciousness and sets of existence.We should be including all of that in some, in some grand or elevated, you know, kind of rights conceptions.Eric: All right, so back back to my listeners who, you know, wanna know where to invest and make money off this and, you know.Reid: [laughs] It isn't from qualia and consciousness. Oh, wait.Eric: Who do you think are the key players? The key players in the models. Then obviously there are more sort of, I don't know if we're calling them vertical solutions or product oriented or whatever, however you think about them.But starting with the models, like who do you see as sort of the real players right now? Are you counting out a Google or do you think they'll still, you know, sort of show?Reid: Oh no. I think Google will show up. And obviously, you know, Open AI, Microsoft has done a ton of stuff. I co-founded Inflection last year with Mustafa Suleyman. We have a just amazing team and I do see a lot of teams, so I'm.Eric: And that's to build sort of the foundational…Reid: Yeah, they're gonna, well, they're building their own models and they're gonna build some things off those models.We haven't really said what they are yet. But that's obviously going to be kind of new models. Adept, another Greylock investment building its own models, Character is building its own models, Anthropic is building its own models. And Anthropic is, you know, Dario and the crew is smart folks from Open AI, they're, they're doing stuff within a kind of a similar research program that Open AI is doing.And so I think those are the ones that I probably most track.Eric: Character's an interesting case and you know, we're still learning more about that company. You know, I was first to report they're looking to raise 250 million. My understanding is that what's interesting is they're building the models, but then for a particular use case, right?Or like, it's really a question of leverage or like, do people need to build the models to be competitive or do you think there will be... can you build a great business on top of Stability or Open AI or do you need to do it yourself?Reid: I think you can, but the way you do it is you can't say it's cause I have unique access to the model. It has to be, you know, I have a business that has network effects or I'm well integrated in enterprise, or I have another deep stack of technology that I'm bringing into it. It can't just be, I'm a lightweight front end to it because then other people can be the lightweight front end.So you can build great businesses. I think with it, I do think that people will both build businesses off, you know, things like the Open AI APIs and I think people will also train models. Because I think one of the things that will definitely happen is a lot of… not just will large models be built in ways that are interesting and compelling, but I think a bunch of smaller models will be built that are specifically tuned and so forth.And there's all kinds of reasons. Everything from you can build them to do something very specific, but also like inference cost, does it, does it run on a low compute or low power footprint? You know, et cetera, et cetera. You know, AI doctor, AI tutor, um, you know, duh and on a cell phone. And, um, and so, you know, I think like all of that, I think the short answer to this is allEric: Right. Do you think we are in a compute arms race still, or do you, do you think this is gonna continue where it's just if you can raise a billion dollars to, to buy sort of com GPU access basically from Microsoft or Amazon or Google, you're, you're gonna be sort of pretty far ahead? Or how do you think about that sort of the money, the money and computing rates shaping up?Reid: So I kind of think about two. There's kind of two lines of trends. There's one line, which is the larger and larger models, which by the way, you say, well, okay, so does the scale compute and one x flop goes to two x flops, and does your performance function go up by that?And it doesn't have to go up by a hundred percent or, or two x or plus one x. It could go up by 25%, but sometimes that really matters. Coding doctors, you know, legal, other things. Well, it's like actually, in fact, it, even though it's twice as expensive, a 25% increase in, you know, twice as expensive of compute, the 25% increase in performance is worth it. And I think you then have a large scale model, like a set of things that are kind of going along need to be using the large scale models.Then I think there's a set of things that don't have that need. And for example, that's one of the reasons I wasn't really surprised at all by the profusion of image generation, cuz those are, you know, generally speaking, trainable for a million to $10 million. I think there's gonna be a range of those.I think, you know, maybe someone will figure out how to do, you know, a hundred-million version and once they figured out how to do a hundred-million dollar version, someone also figured out how to do the 30-million version of that hundred-million dollar version. And there's a second line going on where all of these other smaller models will fit into interesting businesses. And then I think a lot of people will either deploy an open source model that they're using themselves, train their own model, get a special deal with, like a model provider or something else as a way of doing it.And so I think the short answer is there will be both, and you have to be looking at this from what's the specific that this business is doing. You know, the classic issues of, you know, how do you go to market, how do you create a competitive mode? What are the things that give you real, enduring value that people will pay for in some way in a business?All of the, those questions still apply, but the, but, but there's gonna be a panoply of answers, depending on the different models of how it playsEric: Do you think spend on this space in terms of computing will be larger in ‘24 and then larger in 25?Reid: Yes. Unquestionably,Eric: We're on the, we're still on the rise.Reid: Oh, yes. Unquestionably.Eric: That's great for a certain company that you're on the board of.Reid: Well look, and it's not just great for Microsoft. There are these other ones, you know, AWS, Google, but…Eric: Right. It does feel like Amazon's somewhat sleepy here. Do you have any view there?Reid: Well, I think they have begun to realize, what I've heard from the market is that they've begun to realize that they should have some stuff here. I don't think they've yet gotten fully underway. I think they are trying to train some large language models themselves. I don't know if they've even realized that there is a skill to training those large language models, cause like, you know, sometimes people say, well, you just turn on and you run the, run the large language model, the, the training regime that you read in the papers and then you make stuff.We've seen a lot of failures, of people trying to build these things and failing to do so, so, you know, there's, there's an expertise that you learn in doing it as well. And so I think—Eric: Sorry to interrupt—if Microsoft is around Open AI and Google is around Anthropic, is Amazon gonna be around stability? That's sort of the question that I'll put out to the world. I don't know if you have.Reid: I certainly don't know anything. And in the case of, you know, very, very, very, um, a politely said, um, Anthropic and OpenAI have scale with huge models. Stability is all small models, so, hmm.Eric: Yeah. Interesting. I, I don't think I've asked you sort of directly about sort of stepping off the Open AI board. I mean, I would assume you would prefer to be on the board or…?Reid: Yeah. Well, so look, it was a funny thing because, um, you know, I was getting more and more requests from various Greylock portfolio companies cause we've been investing in AI stuff for over five years. Like real AI, not just the, we call it “software AI”, but actual AI companies.For a while and I was getting more and more requests to do it and I was like oh, you know, what I did before was, well here's the channel. Like here is the guy who, the person who handles the API request goes, go talk to them. Like, why can't you help me? I was like, well, I'm on the board.I have a responsibility to not be doing that. And then I realized that, oh s**t, it's gonna look more and more. Um, I might have a real conflict of interest here, even as we're really carefully navigating it and, and it was really important cause you know various forces are gonna kind of try to question the frankly, super deep integrity of Open AI.It's like, look, I, Sam, I think it might be best even though I remain a fan, an ally, um, to helping, I think it may be best for Open AI. And generally to step off a board to avoid a conflict of interest. And we talked about a bunch and said, okay, fine, we'll do it. And you know, I had dinner with Sam last night and most of what we were talking about was kind of the range of what's going on and what are the important things that open eyes need to solve? And how should we be interfacing with governments so that governments understand? What are the key things that, that, that should be in the mix? And what great future things for humanity are really important not to fumble in the, in the generally, like everyone going, oh, I'm worrying. And then I said, oh, I got a question for you. And he's like, yeah, okay. I'm like, now that I'm no longer on the board, could I ask you to personally look at unblocking, my portfolio company's thing to the API? Because I couldn't ever ask you that question before. Cause I would be unethical. But now I'm not on the board, so can I ask the question?He's like, sure, I'll look into it. I'm like, great, right? And that's the substance of it, which I never would've done before. But that wasn't why, I mean, obviously love Sam and the Open AI team.Eric: The fact that you're sort of a Democratic super donor was that in the calculus? Or, because I mean, we are seeing Republican… well, I didn't think that at all coming into this conversation, but just hearing what you're saying. Looking at it now, it feels like Republicans are like trying to find something to be angry about.Reid: WellEric: These AI things, I don't quite…Reid: The unfortunate thing about the, the most vociferous of the republican media ecosystem is they just invent fiction, like their hallucination full out.Eric: Right.Reid: I mean, it just like, I mean, the amount of just like, you know, 2020 election denial and all the rest, which you can tell from having their text released from Fox News that like, here are these people who are on camera going on where you have a question about, you know, what happened in the election.And they're texting each other going, oh my God, this is insane. This is a coup, you know, da da da. And you're like, okay. Anyway, so, so all like, they don't require truth to generate. Heat and friction. So that was, wasn't that no, no. It's just really, it's kind of the question of, when you're serving on a board, you have to understand what your mission is very deeply and, and to navigate it.And part of the 501(C)(3) boards is to say, look, obviously I contribute by being a board member and helping and navigate various circumstances and all the rest. And, you know, I can continue to be a counselor and an aid to the company not being on the board. And one of the things I think is gonna be very important for the next X years, for the entire world to know is that open AI takes its ethics super seriously,Eric: Right.Reid: As do I.Eric: Does that fit with having to invest? I mean, there are lots of companies that do great things. They have investors. I believe in companies probably more than personally I believe in charities to accomplish things. But the duality of OpenAI is extremely confusing. Like, was Greylock, did Greylock itself invest a lot or you invested early as an angel?Reid: I was the founding investor as an angel, as a, as a program related investment from my foundation. Because like I started, I was among the first people to make a philanthropic donation to Open AI. Just straight out, you know, here's a grant by Wednesday, then Sam and Crew came up with this idea for doing this commercial lp, and I said, look, I, I'll help and I have no idea if this will be an interesting economic investment.They didn't have a business plan, they didn't have a revenue plan, they didn't have a product plan. I brought it to Greylock. We talked about it and they said, look, we think this will be possibly a really interesting technology, but you know, part of our responsibility to our LPs, which you know, includes a whole bunch of universities and else we invest in businesses and there is no business plan.Eric: So is that the Khosla did? Khosla's like we invested wild things. Anyway, we don't care. That's sort of what Vinod wants to project anyway, so yeah.Reid: You know, yes, that's exactly the same. So I put them 50 and then he put in a, I think he was the only venture fund investing in that round. But like, there was no business plan, there was no revenue model, there was no go to market…Eric: Well, Sam basically says, someday we're gonna have AGI and we're gonna ask you how to make a bunch of money? Like, is he, that's a joke, right? Or like, how much is he joking?Reid: It's definitely, it's not a 100% joke and it's not a 0% joke. It's a question around, the mission is really about how do we get to AGI or as close to AGI as useful and to make it useful for humanity. And by the way, the closer you get to AGI, the more interesting technologies fall out, including the ability to have the technology itself solve various problems.So if you said, we have a business model problem, it's like, well ask the thing. Now, if you currently sit down and ask, you know, ChatGPT what the business model is, you'll get something pretty vague and generic that wouldn't get you a meeting with a venture capitalist because it's like “we will have ad supported”... you're like, okay. Right.Eric: Don't you have a company that's trying to do pitch decks now or something?Reid: Oh yeah, Tome. No, and it's awesome, but by the way, that's the right kind of thing. Because, because what it does is you say, hey, give me a set of tiles, together with images and graphics and things arguing X and then you start working with the AI to improve it. Say, oh, I need a slide that does this and I need a catchier headline here, and, and you know, da da da.And then you, and you know, obviously you can edit it yourself and so on. So that's the kind of amplification. Now you don't say, give me my business model, right?Eric: You're like, I have this business model, like articulate it.Reid: Exactly.Eric: Um, I, politics, I mean, I feel like we, we live through such like a… you know what I mean, I feel like Silicon Valley, you know, has like, worked on PE everybody be able to, you know, everybody can get along. There's sort of competition, but then you sort of still stay close to any, everybody like, you, you especially like are good, you know, you you are in the PayPal mafia with a lot of people who are fairly very conservative now.The Trump years broke that in some ways and particular, and that, yeah. So how did you maintain those relationships?I see headlines that say you're friends with Peter Thiel. What is, what's the state of your friendship with Peter Thiel and how, how did it survive?I guess the Trump years is the question.Reid: Well, I think the thing that Peter and I learned when we were undergraduate at Stanford together is it's very important to… cause we, you know, I was a lefty. He was a righty. We'd argue a lot to maintain conversation and to argue things. It's difficult to argue on things that feel existential and it's ethically challenged is things around Trump. You know, the, you know, Trump feels to be a corrosive asset upon our democracy that is disfiguring us and staining us to the world. And so to have a dispassionate argument about it is, it's challenging. And it ends up with some uneven ground and statements like, I can't believe you're f*****g saying that, as part of dialogue.But on the other hand, you know, maintaining dialogue is I think part of how we make progress as society. And I basically sympathetic to people as long as they are legitimately and earnestly and committed to the dialogue and discussion of truth between them and committed otherwise.And so, you know, there are folks from the PayPal years that I don't really spend much time talking to, right?. There are others that I do because that conversation about discovering who we are and who we should be is really important. And you can't allow your own position to be the definer.It almost goes back to what we were talking about, the AI side, which is make sure you're talking to other smart people who challenge you to make sure you're doing the right thing. And that's, I think, a good general life principle.Eric: Well, you know, I feel like part of what my dream of like the Silicon Valley world is that we have these, you know, we have, Twitter is like the open forum. We're having sincere sort of on the level debates, but then you see something like, you know, the…Reid: You don't think it's the modern Seinfeld show I got? Well, not Seinfeld, um, Springer, Jerry Springer.Eric: Yeah, that's, yeah. Right. But I just feel like the sort of like, if the arguments are on the level issue is my problem with some of the sort of, I don't know, Peter Theil arguments, that he's not actually publicly advancing his beliefs in a sincere way, and that that's almost more corrosive.Reid: Oh, that's totally corrosive. And as much as that's happening, it's terrible. And that's one of the things that I, um, you know, in conversations I have, I push people including Peter on a lot.Eric: Yeah. Are you still, are you still gonna donate a lot, or what was, what's your, are you as animated about the Democratic party and working through sort of donor channels at the moment?Reid: Well, what I would say is I think that we have a responsibility to try to make, like with, it's kind of the Spider-Man ethics. With power comes responsibility, with wealth comes responsibility, and you have to try to help contribute to… what is the better society that we should be living and navigating in?And so I stay committed on that basis. And I do think there are some really amazing people in the administration. I think Biden is kind of a good everyday guy.Eric: Yeah.Reid: In fact, good for trying to build bridges in the country. I think there are people like Secretary Raimondo and Secretary Buttigieg who are thinking intensely about technology and what should be done in the future.And I think there's other folks now, I think there's a bunch of folks on the democratic side that I think are more concerned with their demagoguery than they are with the right thing in society. And so I tend to be, you know, unsympathetic to, um, you know…Eric: I know, Michael Moritz, it's Sequoia, that oped sort of criticizing San Francisco government, you know, and there's, there's certainly this sort of woke critique of the Democratic Party. I'm curious if there's a piece of it sort of outside of he governance that you're…Reid: Well, the interesting thing about woke is like, well, we're anti woke. And you're like, well, don't you think being awake is a good thing? I mean, it's kind of a funny thing. Eric: And sort of the ill-defined nature of woke is like key to the allegation because it's like, what's the substantive thing you're saying there? And you know, I mean we we're seeing Elon tweet about race right now, which is sort of terrifying anyway.Reid: Yeah. I think the question on this stuff is to try to say, look, people have a lot of different views and a lot of different things and some of those views are, are bad, especially in kind of minority and need to be advocated against in various… part of why we like democracy is to have discourse.I'm very concerned about the status of public discourse. And obviously most people tend to focus that around social media, which obviously has some legitimate things that we need to talk about. But on the other hand, they don't track like these, like opinion shows on, like, Fox News that represent themselves implicitly as news shows and saying, man, this is the following thing.Like there's election fraud in 2020, and then when they're sued for the various forms of deformation, they say, we're just an entertainment show. We don't do anything like news. So we have that within that we are already struggling on a variety of these issues within society. and we, I think we need to sort them all out.Eric: Is there anything on the AI front that we missed or that you wanted to make sure to talk about? I think we covered so much great ground. Reid: And, and we can do it again, right. You know, it's all, it's great.Eric: I love it. This was all the things you're interested in and I'm interested in, so great. I really enjoyed having you on the podcast and thanks.Reid: Likewise. And, you know, I follow the stuff you do and it's, it's, it's cool and keep doing it. Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe

Eric Liaw and Zack Willis are part of IVP, a leading venture firm with a 43-year history of partnering with entrepreneurs who are undaunted on the path to innovation. Will talks to Eric and Zack about what has made IVP so long-lasting in the Venture Capital industry, how they help companies' portfolios, and the accomplishments they are most proud of. Follow Eric on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericliaw/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/eliaw). Follow Zack on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/zwill/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/zwill). IVP (https://www.ivp.com/) Follow IVP on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/ivpvc/), Twitter (https://twitter.com/ivp), or Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/ivpvc/). Follow Aarish Shah on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/adsinuk/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/adsinuk). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Eric Liaw and Zack Willis, who are part of IVP, a leading venture firm with a 43-year history of partnering with entrepreneurs who are undaunted on the path to innovation. Zack, Eric, thank you for joining me. ERIC: Thanks, Will. It's great to be here, really appreciate it. And I got to say, as the Giant Robot Podcast, as a kid growing up, Transformers were my favorite toys. So this may be the closest I ever get to being a Transformer by being part of Giant Robots, so thank you for the opportunity. [laughter] WILL: Love it. We love robots here, so it's perfect. All right, let's start here. For folks who may not know, tell us about IVP and what's on deck for 2023. ERIC: Well, you gave a great intro, so let me just add to that a little bit. You know, we're really proud of our history and our firm. We've been around since 1980. So we're one of the sort of original Silicon Valley venture firms. But when I speak about the firm in that context, I don't think it does justice to how the firm has expanded over the years and how our investment activity now encompasses not only the Bay Area but major U.S. markets like New York and LA. We have investments in Canada, Australia, and a number in Western and Central Europe as well. And the common theme for us is that we're focused on working with entrepreneurs who, as you pointed out, are undaunted as they innovate and are pursuing dreams to create companies that will become recognizable in households and companies across the world, not just today but tomorrow as well. So that's really what IVP is all about. And it's what we're looking forward to in 2023 despite obviously the fact that the world is a little more challenging these days, a little bit more uncertain in, particular in the venture category. But we're really excited about the things that we're working on. We invested a lot in our team over a number of years. And, believe it or not, despite what you might read in headlines around venture activity, we are very much open for business in 2023 because we think that great entrepreneurs and great ideas come together at all times, regardless of whether the stock market is up or down. And our job is to find them, work with them, and become partners for three, four, or five, six, seven years, sometimes longer than that. So really, there's no bad time to start a company and get to know venture investors like us. WILL: Yeah, definitely. Your company has been around for 43 years. Can you kind of tell me what has made you last that long, for 43 years? That's a long time to be in the venture capitalist world, especially before it was popular and fun. ERIC: You know, it's a great question. I've been at the firm for 11 years now. So a lot of the credit goes to people that...our founder, Reid Dennis, who started the firm. He's in his 90s now, so he has since retired, but a lot of credit goes to people that came before me and before Zack. And I think that's a common theme for any kind of organization or institution, no pun intended, because that's what the I in IVP stands for. But it goes to that sort of common thread. You have to evolve, especially in technology. The technology markets that were successful for IVP in the early '80s that's not really cutting-edge venture anymore. As an example, Seagate was one of our first investments ever when people weren't sure that personal hard drive technology would actually work or whether or not they're getting market demand. I mean, who would actually want storage themselves carried around with them at all times? And now, think about how much storage you have in your pocket. It's pretty gnarly to think about how much technology has advanced. But if you kept only thinking about, okay, I'm going to invest in the next hard drive, you would have really gotten stuck after that. And obviously, the things that have come since out of the minds of technology entrepreneurs have far exceeded what people at the time of the founding of IVP would have thought was possible. So I think that evolution is really important, staying fresh; technology trends evolve. In the early days of IVP and in Silicon Valley, there was a saying among venture capitalists that if you couldn't drive to the board meeting within 30 minutes, you didn't make the investment. That's just not true anymore. There's no way. WILL: [laughs] ERIC: And I think COVID has certainly proved that because investments are being made around the world. Now, maybe in hindsight, that was too fast. There was too much capital flowing around just to resume dating if you will. But the underlying theme is evolution, and I think it's teamwork. Because our founder, Reid, wanted the organization and firm to thrive well beyond his days as an active investor, and you can only do that with building a team that's multigenerational. And I'm proud and lucky to be part of an organization that's done that. WILL: Awesome, awesome. Well, tell me about you. Tell me more about your background. How did you get started in the VC world? ERIC: You know, child of immigrants who came to the United States in the '70s from Taiwan. They met in New York City. Like many other people, moved to the burbs and they started a family. So I was born in New Jersey. My brother and I were both born there. I moved to LA when I was 12. I lived in Southern California until I went to college. Had the miraculous fortune to somehow get into Stanford and went to school sort of in the late '90s into the early 2000s, as good fortune would have it, in the middle of the internet bubble. So I had kind of a front-row seat to that era of technology, innovation not knowing anything about tech when I showed up in Palo Alto in the fall of '96. I got exposed to venture capital while I was in school. There was a pretty memorable, at least for me, speech that I went to. John Doerr, now retired from Kleiner Perkins, was on stage in the engineering auditorium and gave a speech about how Amazon was going to change the world. And this was probably in the fall of '98. And he was right. I just think maybe the timeframe was slightly off, but he was right. I mean, at the time, it was books and CDs, and to some of our listeners, CDs was actually how you used to listen to music. WILL: [laughs] ERIC: But you sort of had this really expansive vision. And it was a really exciting way to understand that there are ways to be involved in the technology ecosystem without necessarily being a software engineer. Because I tried my hand at that, and I wasn't anywhere close to being top of the class, let's put it that way. And so, I wanted to be involved in the industry but also kind of think about how I could play to whatever strengths I had. And then the sort of window into venture capital sort of started to open in terms of my awareness of it. I ended up working at Morgan Stanley for a couple of years out of college, where I got to learn more about technology from a business lens. But I always knew I had an angle or a desire to become a venture capitalist. So got into the industry; it'll be 20 years ago this summer. And I've been fortunate enough to keep doing it for that period of time. So that's kind of the medium-length answer to how I got started [laughs] in the business. ZACK: I don't have quite the story that Eric does there. [laughs] But venture capital was never on my radar. I went to college to be a programmer, and that's where I started out. My first real job was at Anheuser-Busch in Los Angeles, and go Lakers. WILL: [laughs] ZACK: Me and Eric have some LA routes [laughter], so that was a great job. I had a ton of fun. And I just got a call from a recruiter one day that a VC firm was looking for a job as an IT manager. I was very unqualified for the position, went through the interview process. It took like six months. I think I met everybody at the firm, got the job. And that was, like Eric, that was about 20 years ago now. And I have just been in the industry ever since. So it's a great place to be, and I have no plans on leaving. WILL: Oh, that's amazing. I love it. So tell me this, beyond dollars invested...because honestly, when I think of venture capitalists, it is mostly about the money. Hey, how much money have you done? How much money have you sent in? What does that look like? But I don't think we ever cover the next step. What else is there? So beyond dollars, what does IVP do to help companies' portfolio? ERIC: Capital is definitely part of it. It's venture capital, so let's be real. You can't ignore that part of it. But I do think that it is only a part of it because what I think sometimes people don't really think through...because the media in particular likes to write about the day a company goes public or if there's a big acquisition like it all just happened at that one moment, but that is so far from the truth. I mean, the amount of work that entrepreneurs and people at startups put in to drive to those outcomes that sort of culminate in that moment is really one of the things I respect most and enjoy most to be part of as a venture capitalist. And so what our role in that can often be is actually quite varied because no two companies are the same. I mean, there are some common themes, but no two companies are the same. And so how we try and get involved is tailored to what a given company needs at a given point in time. Now, some of the common threads might be working with companies to help build out their teams. We do a lot of that because, ultimately, the team is who's at a company every day. I mean, investors aren't there every day and frankly, if we are, probably something's gone wrong. WILL: [laughs] ERIC: That team is important. And we like to think about getting involved in high-leverage moments. And there are a number of different ones, and Zack is part of this too. So a high-leverage hire is probably someone at the C-level or VP-level because that person then recruits and builds out a team. It's different...not to say that individual contributors aren't also important, but we're trying to think about those key players, moments where we can help, I guess, in a biblical turn, teach people how to fish instead of fish for them. That's our mentality, and recruiting is part of it. Sometimes these are partnerships that can drive significant revenue lines. Sometimes it's debating what a business model should be in a given company. A great example on some of these is at both Coinbase and Discord; there was debate around what the business models ought to look like. Coinbase is very transactional. We pushed them to sort of think through a recurring revenue component, some other services that they could have so that their revenue could be a little smoother and not just dependent on transaction volumes. At Discord, they were thinking through raising money to start an in-house gaming studio. We kind of said, "You know, that's a really competitive industry, and the content creation costs just keep going up. How about a different model? Maybe we can think about a subscription service." And that became what drives the revenue today around buying advanced features for your private servers and things like that. There are a lot of moments...unfortunately, sometimes our companies become targets of bad actors, which brings Zack back to the forefront. Part of the benefit of having a portfolio is we see a lot of these different incidents. And Zack is someone that we sort of unleash with our companies when they face some of these challenges, you know, I got a hack, or I have this going on, and Zack jumps in. You should talk about some of the situations that you've had to deal with. And the bat phone rings when those things happen, and we send them straight to Zack. WILL: [laughs] ZACK: Yeah, I mean, we definitely do everything we can. There definitely have been times where it's, all right; this happened to us; what do we do? How can we help this company? And I've really been deeply involved in security most of my career, and it's kind of where I wanted to go. And I pride myself on that. And we have great security here, and we try to instill the same in our portfolio companies. And recently, we developed these jump guides, which is another way we're helping portfolio companies. So they're kind of like how-to lists. So there would be how to hire your first CFO, how to go IPO, that sort of stuff, and I just authored a couple, actually, that are about how to keep your company safe and how to keep your employees safe. And it's all just tips. It's nothing revolutionary, mind-blowing, but it's just stuff that every company should be doing to keep themselves safe. And so that's really the message that we try to give to our portfolio companies. We definitely internalize it as well. I think really the key to good security is there's a partnership. There has to be a partnership between you with, the security team, and all the employees. You can have all the layers of defense you want. You can have your firewalls, your antivirus, et cetera, but if your employees don't understand the value of security and why they shouldn't click on that link or they shouldn't download that file, it's meaningless. It's very important to instill that, just have open communication. And what I tell everybody at IVP is that security is in your hands. We're doing what we can, but it's in your hands. So, ultimately, it falls on them. And it's a scary time, you know, new stuff coming out all the time. But, yeah, we do our best to keep on top of it and our portfolio companies as well. ERIC: Zack is being very modest. But if you take a step back, if you think about, you know, in any of our own lives, which there's a parallel, I think for companies, there are certain moments when you're facing a tough spot, and people that were there for you and helped you are the ones that are most memorable. And when there are good days, things are pretty easy. And those hard days are where we want to make sure that we're there for our companies. And some of those hard days are in times like these where companies have to make some tough decisions around their cost structure because the environment has changed; some of these are, as Zack points out when they're facing a hack or a breach of some sort. And so, ideally, some of those you're preventing before they happen. But in the moment, Zack is a great ally and asset for a lot of our companies. And some of these also happen on a day-to-day basis. It works great to have someone like Zack on our team. He can kick around and be a source for feedback for some product testing, which he does with a lot of companies that are in the portfolio. And actually, he does that when we're evaluating companies too, and sometimes they don't score so well on the Zack Willis meter. [laughter] And then we have productive feedback to give them to think about things as they refine what they're working on. So it's one of those things where there are high-leverage moments, but we really focus on trying to be involved but also available. And again, this is repetitive to what I said earlier; no two companies are the same. And these are long-term partnerships. We want to make sure that we help them succeed, and that's what it's about. ZACK: I agree, and availability for sure. It can be around the clock. You don't know when these things are going to happen. And definitely, we pride ourselves on that, on being available for our companies when they need us. WILL: That's amazing. It sounds like maybe the secret sauce is your long-term relationship with the company. It's not just drop millions of dollars into the company and see you later. Hopefully, you sell out; whatever, you make money. We'll get it back. It's not the day-to-day, but when it gets hard when we can help you when we can support you. And we kind of have that same mindset with thoughtbot. We don't just try to build software and say, "Hey, you're on your way." But, no, hey, can we help you hire developers, anyone to help you with this and make sure that it's not going to fall off as soon as we leave? But that long-term thing. So sometimes, when you're in a long-term game, it can get kind of messy. So, professionally speaking, what keeps you up at night? ERIC: One of the challenges of being an investor is that you can never be too happy or too sad, particularly when we have a portfolio. So if you think about it, to your point about being involved, it's not just writing a check or investing and then say, "Here's the money; call me later." We're active partners. We take board seats in two-thirds of the companies that we invest in. And that's not a stat I throw out there to say it's a contest to see how many boards you're on. No, it's actually a reflection that when you're on a board, you have a responsibility to be helpful and involved and help steward the entire company on behalf of all shareholders. And so that's part of being involved in a portfolio of 80 or 100 companies that are active right now. There are going to be some that are having good quarters and some that are having tougher quarters. And so, collectively, we try and be even-keeled as long as we're making forward progress. And Zack is a guy who runs sub three-hour marathons, but some miles are harder than others. And he can talk more about that. But there are going to be some periods in a company's journey that are harder than others. And so we just try and make sure we're sort of focused in the right direction and ultimately that the right goal is in mind. And right now, probably what's topical is it's harder for companies to raise money at any scale. You see, this sort of capital markets have really reversed course, and this is by design with the Fed raising rates and trying to intentionally slow the economy down for a whole host of reasons we probably don't have to get into on this podcast, but it's working. And what does that mean for our companies? It's harder to generate revenue. People are watching their budgets, whether they're consumers or enterprises, which then means that they need to watch their operating budgets. And that's why you've seen a lot of the layoffs that have happened across the technology sector, in particular over the last nine months. And it's not just startups, you know, it's Google announcing one of the biggest cuts that they've ever had in their history. Microsoft did that yesterday. So it is a more challenging time, and it's something a lot of people in the industry hadn't been through because we've had the benefit of such a long bull market run. But for better or for worse, at this point in my career, I've seen it more than a few times. And so this is, I think, an area where we can be a guide partner, sometimes just a sounding board because it's not easy to make these decisions. ZACK: First of all, I'll give thoughtbot a quick plug since you guys really helped us out. I guess this was about seven years ago now. We worked with you guys a couple years to get the first iteration of this system that we have that helps us...kind of part of our secret sauce that helps us find companies to invest in. So I'm very thankful for that. And as far as what keeps me up at night, I mean, aside from my cat, and my dog, and my anxiety, [laughs] it's going back to what we talked about before; it's really security. Did we do everything? Are we staying on top of the latest threats? Are we helping out our companies enough? There was an interesting article that just came out a few days ago that talked about how PE companies and some VCs, private equity and venture capital, are requiring security audits of their firms before they invest in them. And so before they'll make the acquisition, they'll run into an audit, and they'll say, "Okay, well, you're missing these things. We're not going to invest in you until you do these things, until you have two-factor authentication until you have this, until you have that." I think that's an interesting trend. For PE, it's a little bit of a bigger deal since they acquire the company. It's still a way that I believe that we can protect ourselves and our portfolio companies. It helps protect our reputation, helps protect their reputation, and it really gives us the chance to get in there at the beginning and say, "Hey, these things are missing. This is what you should focus on security-wise. WILL: That's amazing, amazing. MID-ROLL AD: thoughtbot is thrilled to announce our own incubator launching this year. If you are a non-technical founding team with a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our eight-week program. We'll help you move forward with confidence in your team, your product vision, and a roadmap for getting you there. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. WILL: I wanted to take a step back; when you mentioned Coinbase and Discord, and you said that you helped them set the direction going forward. Honestly, we may not even know those companies if their original plan would have gone forward. How much has your 43 years of experience helped guide that direction with Coinbase and Discord? ERIC: You know, there's a saying that history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. And so I think that's probably the mentality that we try and take from our collective experience as a team that we try to bring to each company. And we meet as a team on Mondays and Thursdays, and it's a very broad meeting compared to most of the investment world in terms of who attends that meeting internally. And so we talk about companies that we're considering and contemplating. We talk about companies we've already invested in. And I think one of our core cultural attributes that is a great strength is putting our best thinking against some of these problems. Again, when things are going well, those are short conversations. But when someone says, "Hey, you know, I'm working with this company, and we're kind of facing this issue. What do people think? What have we seen that's kind of analogous?" And that's where we get some of these ideas from. So, for example, on the Coinbase example, we've been involved in a lot of marketplace businesses and exchange businesses. Those are great business models. And Coinbase has a fantastic management team. But thinking about this, this is pre-IPO and pre-direct listing, and when they want to be public one day, you know, there is a benefit to having a recurring revenue stream, a little more visibility. And so, how could we layer that on and make that, hopefully, over time, a bigger and bigger part of the business? I think in Discord; we had some perspective that led us to invest in the company. In the first place, we've had a lot of success in gaming companies like Zynga, and Supercell, and Niantic, amongst others. We could see how passionate gamers are and, how they come in all different shapes, sizes, flavors, geographies, and how having a communication tool like Discord is really a benefit. However, we also saw that the cost of producing games continues to go up. And if it's not kind of your full-time job, the likelihood you're going to nail something that a very competitive and discerning universe of gamers wants to play is probably not that high. So how do we think about harnessing that energy, and the talent, and the platform you build in a different way? So I'd say those are kind of some examples where we could think about things we've seen in our perspective but apply it to what's relevant for a specific company. WILL: That's amazing. I love it. Yeah, I've heard the gaming business can be brutal. What IVP accomplishments are you most proud of? ERIC: Well, maybe I'll break that into two parts. I think inside and outside the firm; I'm really proud of the team that we've built. And when I joined the firm 11 years ago, we were probably 20 people, 25 people in total. Now we're 65 people. And that doesn't seem like a lot in comparison to big tech companies or hyper-growth startups. But in a business-like venture capital, really what we're doing in addition to providing capital, internally, it's a lot of discussion, decision-making, ideas, thinking. That is hard to do the way that we do it if we get too big. And that goes back to the size of our Monday meetings, which is rather large and includes a wide representation of the firm. But I'm really proud of the team that we've built. I'm really proud of the capabilities that we've enhanced on the technology side. Really, Zack drove a lot of this in the time that he's been with the firm, and we're leaps and bounds ahead of where we were with your help as well. I think Zack was alluding to what we think is one of our secret weapons, our early detection system, so we're really proud of that. And then I'd say externally, or with our companies, we've had 131 of them go public. We had 15 of them do that in 2021, none did in '22. So the market's changed quite a bit. Those are accomplishments that, like I pointed to previously, they're milestone events. The pride comes in knowing that these companies that we've worked with have put in the work over years, at minimum, years, to get to that point. And that gives, I think, all of us a collective sense of accomplishment. WILL: That's amazing. ZACK: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. In my, I guess, almost eight years here now, we've grown a ton in our hiring. Our team is amazing. It's really the reason why I'm still here, why our turnover is basically nothing. We hire great people. And during that time, we've raised some great funds. We've invested in amazing companies. We've helped out a lot of entrepreneurs. It's just across the board. I've been in this industry a while. I feel like IVP is definitely a unique VC firm, and I'm proud of what we do. WILL: That's amazing. One of my favorite questions that I like to ask on the podcast is, if you could go back in time at the very beginning and give yourself advice, what would it be? ZACK: For me, it's stay relevant, I think. And to me, it just means being more involved in everything. Put yourself out there. Be bold. Learn about different areas in the company. Try to attend different meetings. Talk to different departments, and really just make yourself visible. When you do that, I think the rest just kind of falls into place. And it took me quite a while in my career to really realize that. And it's still tough now, but it's something that I'm always trying to do. Historically, I'm a very shy person, but just putting myself out there and doing the best I can in any situation that I find myself in. ERIC: I think a couple of things, balance, and patience are probably two things, not trying to force it. So I think there's a lot of Yoda Jedi wisdom that probably would be useful. So if you're sort of...when I was first starting out, you're younger and impetuous at times and want to make things happen because you have such a strong desire to try and do something the right way and make a positive impact. But the hardest thing to learn is sometimes the right thing to do is actually to do nothing in the investment world. That is a hard thing for a lot of motivated, energetic Type A people to do, and yet it's sometimes the exact right thing you should be doing. So I think it's hard to hear that when you're starting out in your 20s. And now that I'm a little older than that, [laughs] I think I can look back and appreciate it. But that's probably, as I think through that question, maybe the best piece of advice. And yet, like a lot of things, we were all taught while we were younger from people who had more experience, or age, or wisdom, or whatever, there are just some things you hear, and it's not real until you've kind of lived it. And sometimes, in some of those dimensions, you have to make your mistakes before you appreciate them. You guys probably had this experience writing code. Like, there's got to be...I could just do it this way, and it'd be fast. And then you realize it wasn't really that sound or forward-compatible or something. You had to go back and rewrite your architecture, and that's a pain. So I think it's that same approach, thinking with balance. ZACK: Just to add to what I was saying before, too, I think one of the things also would have been, you know, find something you're passionate about and do it every day. That wasn't the case early on in my career, and I turned to running, and I turned to working out. And I do something every morning, and that really, really grounds me. It helps me focus helps me plan out the day. And it's really just my time that's crucial. And whether it's running, whether it's meditating but just taking some time for yourself, you know, energize yourself, take care of yourself. And that goes a long way in the workplace as well. WILL: I love it, yeah. That's why it was one of my favorite questions, just learning from your mistakes, learning from what you did in the past. It's amazing. So I love that. ERIC: Yeah, I mean, since Zack brought up the Lakers, [laughter] and this isn't the Lakers, but it's basketball-related, you guys might remember this old Michael Jordan commercial. He talks about I've missed this many free throws and this many shots and something like, my team has trusted me 80 times to win the game in the fourth quarter, and I've missed. The tagline is something like, I have failed over and over and over and over again, and that is why I succeed. There's definitely some of that in the venture business and the advice I think we could all give to our younger selves. WILL: Oh, yeah, getting back up. Keep going, yeah. ERIC: The same thing with Dwyane Wade commercial, you know, get knocked down eight times, get up nine, kind of the same thing. WILL: Love it. What's something you would love the audience to know about IVP? ZACK: I think our team and just the way we hire. We hire amazing people. They're smart. They're kind. They're low ego. They're thoughtful. I'm not going to say it's completely different from others, but it is, in my experience, a different culture. And we all get along great. We mesh really well, and we continue to hire great. We hired almost 20 People in the last year and a half. That's a lot, but we still manage to maintain the same level of talent. We help our portfolio companies do hires as well. I think that's one of our benefits. We know talent, and we know it internally, and we know it externally. And it's just a great culture to be a part of. WILL: Amazing. ERIC: The thing to think about with us is if you're an entrepreneur building a company, it's tough. Sometimes it's really lonely. We aspire to be partners with entrepreneurs in good times and in bad. We're not the flashiest ones out there. We're not trying to see who has the most Twitter followers. But when you need something, we're there. I think that is something people lost sight of or didn't care as much about in the last couple of years when things were easy. They're not so easy now. And we take pride in these long-term partnerships, which is why we're highly selective in the number of companies we invest in every year. We're never going to be the most active, but we put a lot of our work, time, effort, energy, mental capacity alongside the capital that we bring to our companies. And I think that's been a great formula for us over our history, and it'll continue to be. WILL: That's amazing. To summarize, I know each VC firm has their own DNA. What makes IVP different from its competitors? ERIC: I'd say a couple of things. And again, I've only worked at two firms, and so there are a lot of firms I haven't worked at, so I don't want to attempt to speak too much into the intricacies of how they work. But I'd say inside our four walls, our culture of teamwork and collective outcome and benefit and effort is really special. Every investment we approach has access to the entire firm's resources and capabilities. And I think it's really different. I mean, we're very happy to partner with one another internally, help each other out, help companies that we might not be mostly directly involved with for the benefit of our firm, and our investors, and the companies that we work with. And I think that is something that a lot of firms talk about. I don't think it's always true at a lot of firms. And so, for us, it's really special and something that we've worked really hard to build as a culture, and keep as a culture, and preserve every day. Because I think it's easy to feel like you're on an island in this business at times, but we want to make sure that we feel that connectivity as a team. For our entrepreneurs, we are here to work with you and support you, probably not daily because I think, again, that goes back to having the right people, but weekly, monthly, quarterly, over years, that's our approach. We believe great things take time to build. WILL: That's amazing. Zack, I want to summarize this portion with you. How do you keep your firm and your employees safe from online threats? Do you share that with your portfolio companies? Because I know especially in the tech world and in the news, you're hearing about those scammers, those threats, summarize it for me, like, how do you do that? ZACK: There are a lot of pieces, of course. And as I was talking about before, I think the most important thing is really just getting buy-in from the whole firm. Me and my team we definitely try out the latest products, get the top-of-the-line security stuff, and really make sure that that stack is solid and that we're monitoring everything and getting the buy-in. So it's a lot of training. It's keeping them up to date. It's instilling the messages. Like, when I first started here, I did a security training. The firm had never done a security training. We were pretty light on security at the time. And so, I tried to make the presentation fun and a little scary. So I brought in the FBI. WILL: Wow. ZACK: The FBI scared everybody a little bit. And then I came on and just talked about what to do and not to do. And I actually had a song composed [laughs] about security and what employees should be doing. It was just a funny jingle that people still sing today. [laughter] But yeah, I think just making it memorable. And we have a Slack channel called Tech Talks. I'm always updating the latest information on there on different breaches and different attacks we're seeing, and what we can do to prevent that, and what our employers should be doing. And absolutely, that extends to our portfolio companies. And those jump guides, I believe they're out now with all my technical recommendations. We use those internally. I definitely gave those to the firm but also to our portfolio companies. And there's some interesting stuff in there that you may not think of, like removing your information from the internet. Like, get a company, Optery, something like that, which we pay for for all our employees, and it scrubs the internet of your information, and that's great. It cuts back on phishing, spam calls, you know, just going beyond too. We also have this product that we use that monitors employees' personal email addresses for breaches. So we're not just caring about IVP. We're also caring about what someone's doing in their personal life because that can also lead to a breach of IVP. So yeah, so someone's Gmail account gets exposed, and we're going to know about it, and we can let them know. And then, really, it's just staying on top of things. One of the things we just did, you know, passwords are the worst, everyone knows that, and so we just rolled out this product called Beyond Identity. And it's a password list provider. The difference between them and other password list providers is they offer a layer of security on top of the password list. So it's not just convenient; it's also added security, which was always my worry about going password list; it's just more convenient and less secure. But this company does it right. And it's things like that, just staying ahead of it. All right, passwords are a problem? Let's get rid of passwords. Following those trends and keeping up to date. ERIC: I mean, Zack is a very tough critic. So he's given a couple of shout-outs which means he really likes those products, and I'm glad that we have them. And I very much remember that training session that he did for us or organized. And we did a refresh of it a couple of years ago. I think we've done at least two of them now. It sounds really boring [laughs], and maybe I'm just kind of a geek in that way, but that was one of the most memorable training sessions that I've ever been part of in my time at IVP. And we had Zack's buddy from the FBI come in and give kind of an overview of all the vulnerabilities that they see, and that's obviously very, very cutting edge. And they had some footage of people sort of passing off USB sticks here and there in subways in New York City. So you can kind of see them go in in one entrance. They got a different shot of the camera while they're on the tracks, and they go their separate ways. I mean, this is straight out of some spy stuff, and it's happening. It makes you think...that's an extreme; we know we're talking about sort of most likely state-sponsored bad guys, but the ones that are commercially oriented, I think maybe they're not as frequent...they're more frequent, and so we have to be on guard all the time, especially as a firm that does have access to and move around a lot of money. I'm geeking out because I learned a lot from it. And Zack also likes to keep all of us on our toes with a lot of sort of...it's like the security equivalent of pop quizzes. He's always planting fake links and stuff to see who clicks on them. [laughter] And then he's pretty kind because he doesn't out you by name when we talk about them on Mondays. [laughter] But he says something like, "Hey, you know, there are 65 people who got this test, and the good news is that 50 of you passed. The bad news is that 15 people didn't, which means that could have resulted in a lot of different intrusions. So try and be better," so stuff like that. And it is actually kind of fun and reminds us that while we're a venture capital firm, we are people that comprise the firm just like everybody else, and we got to be vigilant. ZACK: That's a good point, too, just about the FBI and them showing us all the crazy stuff. I mean, one of the things that they really tried to drill in, and I still talk to my friend in the FBI today, is VCs are a target. VCs are absolutely a target. And it's not necessarily what you have; it's what you're perceived to have. And so, okay, they probably think we have a lot of IP and a lot of things like that that we don't necessarily have, but they're still going to try to get in. They're still going to try to hack their way in. And I think that's important, too, just instilling that message like, yeah, we're a VC firm. We're a target; you need to understand that; here's why. And that's true for most firms. We're not special. But it's definitely something you need to instill. ERIC: Oh, Zack's probably going to cringe if he hears me say this, but I definitely take the point that you know, you don't have to be faster than the bear; you just got to be faster than the next guy. So you just have [laughter] to be more secure and more of a pain to try and penetrate, and they'll move on to somebody else. ZACK: I mean, that's totally true. That's a big part of security. If they come knocking on your door, and you have that deadbolt, and the next house doesn't, then yeah, they're going to go the easier path. So that's absolutely true, Eric. WILL: Well, you're doing something right because he remembered the training, and he enjoys it. [laughter] You're doing something right. ERIC: I guess I'm just weird in that way, but it was actually kind of fun. WILL: Well, thank you, Eric and Zack, for being on here. It was amazing. Where can the audience find more information about you, connect with you? ERIC: www.ivp.com is probably the best place. It sounds so old school, but it's the most relevant. Follow us on Twitter, LinkedIn. But I've had a great time talking with you. This has been a lot of fun. Hopefully, you got some nuggets for your audience, too. ZACK: Yeah, I agree. Thank you very much for having us. This was a lot of fun. WILL: Yeah, I've really enjoyed it, so thank you. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guests: Eric Liaw and Zack Willis.

What you'll learn in this episode:   The difference between jadeite and nephrite, and why both are known as jade Why Chinese artisans have chosen to carve jade for thousands of years Why jade can be purchased at dramatically different price points How to spot a pseudo jade that has been dyed or polymer treated Why a healthy sense of skepticism is the most important thing a new jade collector can have   About Eric Hoffman   Eric Hoffman is an aficionado of Chinese jades for over 40 years. He is the owner and operator of Far East Gallery, which is dedicated to lovers of Chinese arts, antiques, antiquities, and—most especially—jades and snuff bottles. A member of the worldwide organizations Friends of Jade and the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, jade consultant to the Chinese Cultural Relics Association, and contributing editor to Adornment magazine, Prof. Hoffman has written many articles and reviews on this fascinating subject.   Additional Resources: Website Introductory Articles on Jade: http://hoffmanjade.com/Adornment_Jade.pdf https://asianart.com/articles/hoffman/index.html   Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript: Jade is a popular gemstone that even the most avid jewelry collectors often know little about. Much of the confusion stems from the fact that two distinct stones share the same name. Enter Eric Hoffman, a jade dealer and author who is an expert on identifying different types of jade. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about jadeite jade vs. nephrite jade; why jade can either be extremely valuable or basically worthless; and how new collectors can find quality pieces. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Eric J. Hoffman, who's extremely knowledgeable about jade. Eric is the owner of Far East Gallery and HoffmanJade.com. He is a seller and a buyer, and he knows a lot about what makes jade valuable. He's also an author. Welcome back.    But you said there's a white jade that's a nephrite, and then there's another kind of white jade that's a jadeite, right?   Eric: That's right. When you're talking about white jade, it makes a big difference whether it's nephrite or jadeite. White nephrite is very desirable. White jadeite is kind of a waste material. In fact, it's often dyed or polymer-treated to make it look like something it's not.   Sharon: When you say something it's not, what do you mean? Is it to try and fool people? Why do carvers value white jade so much?   Eric: Again, you have to distinguish between the two types of white jade. The nephrite is desirable to carvers because it can be carved thin and it's not going to break on them while they're carving. The jadeite is generally valued for jewelry, and people don't want a white stone ring. They want the nice, imperial green, apple green jadeite. Back in the late 80s, around 1989, someone figured out how to polymer treat and dye white jadeite to make it look like the imperial green, desirable jadeite.   Sharon: Wow, there's a lot to learn when it comes to stone. The white nephrite that's called jade, when it comes to carving, it's harder to carve. Am I right?   Eric: All carving is hard, but at least the nephrite's not going to break on you. It's not going to crumble. It's not going to cleave like some minerals like fluorite, for example, might do. There are carvings in jadeite as well. It's a little less tough and a little bit harder.   Sharon: But jadeite is what was in Burma. Maybe I'm getting confused. I'm trying to keep it straight. When you talk about the Chinese, that's more of the nephrite jade, and when you talk about the Burmese, that's more of the jadeite, right?    Eric: In terms of where they come from, but there's not much of an industry in Burma carving jadeite. The jadeite comes out of the ground in Burma, and it goes immediately to China where it is made into jewelry and carvings and artifacts and so forth.   Sharon: I'm just getting confused. If somebody says to me, “This is a jade bracelet,” and it's green, what do I ask? Where it came from, or is it nephrite or jadeite? What do I ask?   Eric: The question would be is it nephrite or jadeite. The answer will probably come back that it's jadeite. When you see jade bangle bracelets, for example, they're usually but not always jadeite. Usually if it's a vivid apple green, it's probably jadeite. If it's a darker grayish green, it's probably nephrite.   Sharon: What if it's white? I'm thinking of a hand-made bangle. If they say it's white jade, is that just treated jadeite?   Eric: They would probably not stop at white. They would try to dye it or polymer treat it to try to fool you into thinking it's a more valuable type of jade.   Sharon: So, when somebody says to me, “This is jade,” they really mean jadeite, right? There's nephrite, but most things are jadeite. I'm just trying to understand this.   Eric: It's a complicated subject for sure. Most of the jewelry, but not all that you encounter, will be jadeite. There is nephrite jewelry, but it's probably 10 to one in favor of jadeite.   Sharon: When I was talking to Elyse, she was saying that most of the time the carvings are too large to be used for jewelry, as you were saying, but there are smaller things such as beads and things like that. Is that jade jadeite? Why are they made into small items?   Eric: Jade is found in small quantities, so that's one thing that limits the size. It's costly material, at least the higher grades of jadeite. That would be another thing that limits the size.    Sharon: What would icy jade be? Tell us about icy jade.   Eric: That's another interesting subject. When you're judging jadeite, you're looking at the color. You look at what's called the texture, which is the fineness of the individual, microscopic crystals. It affects the kind of polish the jade can take. You look at the clarity. You'd like to find jade that doesn't have inclusions or black spots in it. There's also something called translucence. As jade becomes more and more translucent, you get to where you can almost read text through it. That's called icy jade.   Sharon: Do you look at whether it's jade or icy jade? Do you look at it under a microscope to decide if you're going to buy it or judge it?   Eric: No, you can see right away that it's an example of icy jade, but it's fairly rare material. It didn't used to be worth anything particularly more than other jades until Christie's, some years ago in a marketing coup, changed the name from water jade to icy jade.   Sharon: Water jade to icy jade.   Eric: And it took off. In the many pieces I've handled over the decades, I only have one piece of icy jade.   Sharon: That's you've handled or that you would be willing to part with?   Eric: Both.    Sharon: Putting icy jade aside, when you evaluate a piece of jade, do you look under a microscope at all? Is that part of your process? I don't know what you look for.   Eric: Generally, no. Generally, a 10x loupe is about all you need to evaluate jade. For example, with a 10x loupe, you can look and see if dye is seeping into the little boundaries between regions on jadeite. The other instrument that is sometimes useful would be a refractometer, which is occasionally brought into play to distinguish between a nephrite and a jadeite.   Sharon: Somebody brought my mother a gift back from China, and she said it was jade. Would that have been an imitation jade? I don't know what she paid for it. I don't remember. Was it a jade jadeite versus—I mean, nephrite doesn't sound like it's in the picture.   Eric: It could have been any one of those. There are some fairly simple tests of hardness and specific gravity and so forth that you can run to tell what you're looking at.   Sharon: As a collector and, as you can tell very obviously, somebody who knows nothing about jade or nephrite or Mawsitsit or icy jade, what would you say to a collector just starting out? What should they look for? What should they have with them? I got rid of my refractometer a long time ago. I said, “Forget it. I never use it.” What would they do with it?   Eric: The one thing you should always have with you is a 10x loupe. The other thing you should always have with you is a healthy sense of skepticism. I assume that any ancient jade I'm shown is a brand-new fake until proven otherwise. When you're shown a gorgeous piece of jade jewelry, you should be a little skeptical as to whether it's natural or has been treated in some way.   Sharon: Treated meaning coated with color to make it look a different color or a stronger color?   Eric: There have been examples of coating, but I was really referring to was what started back in 1989, with the polymer treatment of pretty much worthless white jadeite.   Sharon: How would I know? How would a collector know?   Eric: It's a problem. At a certain price level, you would go to the GIA. They would look at your piece with an infrared spectrometer and tell you yes or no, whether it's natural or colored or had been treated. But this test, of course, costs a few hundred dollars, so you're probably up in the $20,000-$30,000 price range before it becomes worthwhile doing that.    Sharon: If you're buying a less expensive piece that's not a $20,000 piece, what would you say a collector should look for? Should we look for translucency? If they tell me something is old, how do I know?   Eric: If you don't have a $100,000 spectrometer laying around in your basement, you should probably look for a dealer you can trust who does have access to one, either directly or through a lab like GIA.   Sharon: I can tell you're on the East Coast if you say a basement, because who knows what a basement is out here? In fact, I did see a house with a basement, and I was floored. I thought a house with a basement in Los Angeles—   Eric: No basements in Los Angeles?   Sharon: No basements out here, or maybe just a few old, old houses. So, what attracts you? Do you like the color of the jade you buy? Whatever you put on your site, do you like it?   Eric: Yes, the colors of nephrite are more subdued and softer and more subtle, but I find them attractive. The colors of jadeite are brighter and a more vivid green. There's also lavender, which is very attractive. So, yes, the color is one thing, and the extreme toughness of nephrite, what it lets carvers accomplish.   Sharon: If something is lavender, depending on price range, you could add polymers to make it lavender? Is it nephrite or would that be jadeite, or both?   Eric: That is jadeite, yes. Unfortunately, lavender is faked as well. Polymer-treated lavender does exist. It's usually so garish looking that you can dismiss it right out of hand, but a really good imitation can be a little harder to tell. Once again, you rely on an infrared spectrometer to tell the difference.   Sharon: Do you have one lying around your house?    Eric: I have no infrared spectrometer.   Sharon: In the thousands of years they've been carving jade, whether it's in China or Burma or wherever, is there natural lavender jade? What are the natural colors?   Eric: Oh yes, there is natural lavender. It's a softer, more subtle lavender. It comes from Burma along with the other jades, so it does exist.   Sharon: Are there any other colors? There's green; there's white; there's lavender. There are different shades of green, but what else? Is that it for all the jades?   Eric: There is a red. There's a reddish brown, russet and black.   Sharon: And they all come from Burma and then they're shipped off to China? Or are they in China?   Eric: The jade is all from Burma and it's almost universally carved in China.   Sharon: So, if somebody shows me a piece—I keep going back to this example of a bangle bracelet—and somebody says it's from China, it's really been dug out of the ground in Burma and shipped off to China to be made into something. Is that what you're saying?   Eric: That's correct. If it's jadeite, the raw material came from northern Burma and the work was almost certainly done in China.   Sharon: O.K. You must really take people aback when you start asking them questions. They probably think you're just another person who doesn't know anything about jade.   Eric: Once again, you want to find a dealer you have some faith in.   Sharon: Do you think you have those dealers? Because you're a dealer, do you think the people you get your material and your carved objects from, are they trustworthy? If they call you and say, “Hey, do I have a deal for you,” do you say, “O.K., let me hear about it”?   Eric: There are dealers I buy from and there are dealers I sell to. I also sell jade books, books about jade.   Sharon: Tell us about some of the things you're written about or the names of the books.   Eric: At one point, I might have been the number one seller of jade books in the world. I've written about that. I've sent a lot of the best ones to China. Even though the shipping cost can be horrendous for a big, heavy book, it doesn't seem to bother anybody in China to pay it.   Sharon: You must have clients from all over the world.   Eric: Yeah, I've probably shipped to about 20 to 30 countries.   Sharon: Besides the books, who contacts you from all over the world to say, “Hey, I saw this object on your site”?   Eric: I get that all the time, people showing pictures. Invariably it's imitation ancient jades.    Sharon: How about when they want to buy something from you? Do they come from all over the world?   Eric: I ship all over.    Sharon: Tell us what you've written about. If you're the number one seller, people really trust what you have to say about jade. Are you writing from a mineral perspective for what to look for? What are you telling them? What are you writing about in the books?    Eric: As an engineer, it's the technical aspect I appreciate the most. Telling jade from pseudo jade has been a side specialty.   Sharon: I shouldn't send my bracelet from the swap meet to you because I should just assume it's pseudo jade. That's what you're saying, right?   Eric: It pays to have a healthy sense of skepticism. I assume everything is fake until proven otherwise.   Sharon: How would somebody prove otherwise to you? Because it's old and they're brushing the dirt off of it? How would they prove it?   Eric: Perhaps the most reliable thing in dealing with ancient jades is to take a close look at the tooling techniques and looking for modern toolmarks, which would not have been used a thousand plus years ago.   Sharon: Do you often find when you're evaluating a piece for you to buy to resell, will someone tell you, “Oh, this is made with old tools,” and then you'll find a modern tool mark and hand it back?   Eric: There's no handing back. A lot of times, you have to buy in a dark, dingy corner, no recourse, no refund, cash only.   Sharon: I guess I'm thinking about a big show or something like that. You're saying they pull you aside. Do they open their raincoat or something?   Eric: At a big show, of course, the vetting has already been done for you. But that's reflected in the very high prices, so it's hard to buy anything at a big show for resale.    Sharon: As a collector, if we were going to buy or evaluate a piece and we don't have our handy refractometer with us, what should we be doing in terms of the sense of skepticism? It's like how on Antiques Roadshow you see people all the time who believe they have pre-Columbian artifacts and they're proven to be fake. Should we look for contemporary toolmarks? Is that one tell?   Eric: You've opened another new subject, and that's pre-Columbian jade. Jade was carved in Central America roughly about the time of the Chinese Zhou Dynasty. In fact, there's some thought that perhaps there was communication between China and the jade carvers in Central America because a lot of the motifs are the same. But in Central America, at that time, they were using string and abrasives and stone files, not metal tools.   Sharon: When was this?   Eric: This would have been maybe 500 to 1,000 years ago.    Sharon: Not that long ago, really, when you compare it to China or even other places in the world.   Eric: That's right. For the first several thousand years, China carved with the same kinds of tools before they had metals.   Sharon: That's really interesting. Tell us a bit more about when we should come to a person like you, what we'll find in the books and chapters you've coauthored. Are we only going to find technical stuff, or are we going to find history? Are we going to find anything else?   Eric: There are jade books that cover all of that. Unfortunately, they're not all in the same book. The book I worked on most recently was by Richard Hughes in Bangkok. It's a big, heavy book. It's costs $200 just to mail it from Bangkok to the United States. It's not the kind of investment everybody will make, and it does focus on the gemology aspects of both nephrite and jadeite.    Sharon: When are you going to be writing your book about history? You say there's not a book that encompasses it all. Forget the minerology, but the history, the carving, how it's done. When are you going to write it?   Eric: I don't think you should wait for it. I've been assembling notes for about 20 years. Elyse asks that same question about once a week.   Sharon: So, I should come back to you in 10, 15 years?   Eric: 10 years would be good.   Sharon: For somebody like me, it would be an easier book to write because I don't know the technical stuff. The history and the carving would be interesting and fast to write.    Eric: While you're waiting the 10 years, there is actually a book that was written called “Jade Lore.” I'm not sure when it was written; possibly in the 40s. That does cover, in a very readable way, a lot of the history along with a little bit of the technical.   Sharon: But isn't it out of print because it's been so long?   Eric: It's out of print, but you can find copies. It was written by a journalist who was on-site in China around the time the Qing Dynasty was falling apart, and a lot of these pieces were coming onto the market.   Sharon: When was that? How long ago?   Eric: The Qing Dynasty fell in 1911, 1912. I think this book was written either in the 30s or 40s. It was written by somebody who really knew how to write a lively story.   Sharon: Where have you been? If you're saying you look at these objects or jewels, have you been to some of the places and seen them directly, or is it mostly when somebody brings you into a dark corner?   Eric: I've been to Taiwan. I have not been to mainland China. As I mentioned earlier, the Chinese really want to repatriate and bring back into the country the best jades as well as jade books. To get pieces of jade now, you pretty much have to stumble across American collections or European collections.   Sharon: I think that's true of other pieces too. It seems that the Chinese are very interested in repatriating a lot of older jewelry. We're being told they're the ones who drive the prices up. Is that also true in jade?   Eric: Oh, absolutely. In fact, there's a book on that subject as well.    Sharon: Which is?   Eric: On the whole subject of repatriating these pieces back into China.    Sharon: What do people do with them when they have them back in China?   Eric: What do they do with them in China?   Sharon: Yeah.   Eric: Some of those will end up in museums in China. Others end up in private collections of millionaires.   Sharon: Eric, I see Elyse in the corner there. You have to go pack your bags so you can get ready for your next trip to Myanmar or mainland China. You've been to Taiwan. Thank you very much for being with us today.    Eric: It's a pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.   Sharon: It's been great. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

Eric Stine is the Chief Commercial Officer at SkillSoft. Building a foundation of trust is what our customers need and also what our own sales teams need from the leaders. Eric shares his insights on understanding the buyer's experience and focusing on solving their problems with effective communication. He also shares some of his experiences traveling and how meeting people he otherwise would never have met influenced his outlook as a leader. HIGHLIGHTS The beauty of traveling to unfamiliar places and meeting different people Having reskilling paths for sales teams How to assess your customers' buying experience Solving the right way: Substance, Empathy, and Trust  QUOTES Buyers and sellers are humans alike - Eric: "Humans have this unquenchable desire for new information and so if you show up with something of substance to say, if you are empathetic about solving a problem, and if you've developed a relationship rooted in trust, people are gonna show up to see you. They're gonna get on Zoom even though they really haven't done their hair." You have to care about solving the customer's problem - Eric: "You have to show up knowing something. You have to have a different point of view, not just on what your product or service or solution, or offering does. You have to have a point of view on why it matters, not just why it's different. It's not just about being differentiated, you need to understand why it matters." Find out more about Eric in the link below: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-stine-49540a9/ More on Andy: Connect on LinkedIn Get Andy's new book "Sell Without Selling Out" on Amazon Learn more at AndyPaul.com Sponsored by: Revenue.io | Unlock exponential growth with an AI-powered RevOps platform | Revenue.io Scratchpad | The fastest way to update Salesforce, take sales notes, and stay on top of to-dos | Scratchpad.com Blueboard | World's leading experiential rewards & recognition platform | Blueboard.com Explore the Revenue.io Podcast Universe: Sales Enablement Podcast RevOps Podcast Selling with Purpose Podcast

Summary: In the ninth episode of Season 10 of the Propcast, host Louisa Dickins is joined by Eric Duchon, Global Head of ESG for Blackstone Real Estate and John Fitzpatrick, Chief Technology Officer of Alternative Asset Management Technology at Blackstone, the world's largest alternative asset manager. John featured previously in Season 2 of The Propcast. Eric and John share where Blackstone is on ESG and why they are seen as one of the leaders in this space. They talk about what Blackstone is focusing on as a business when it comes down to strategy, investment and innovation across their diverse and global portfolio. In this episode you will hear how Blackstone ensures attractive returns for their investors whilst making a positive impact on the communities in which they invest. Resources: LMRE Global Recruitment and Search Consultancy LMRE YouTube Interviews Companies Mentioned: Sphera Schneider Electric EQ Office Willis Tower Aquicore Shout Outs: Don Anderson StuyTown Kenneth Caplan Kathleen McCarthy Baldwin  Jonathan Gray  Key Insights From This Episode:     We believe that ESG is a real source of value and a way to mitigate risk in our portfolio - Eric   What drove me into this space is the use of passion to drive change, whilst driving value - Eric We do need the technologies that help us automate and optimise our buildings but this also requires the people that know what they're doing - Eric Technology is important, but having a clear strategy is the starting place that people should have if they want to achieve their ESG targets - John About Our Guests: Eric Duchon: Eric Duchon is Global Head of ESG for Blackstone Real Estate. As part of the Real Estate Asset Management team, he partners with the firm's central ESG team and Portfolio Operations to initiate, manage, implement and report ESG initiatives across the global Real Estate portfolio. Prior to joining Blackstone in November 2020, Mr. Duchon was at LaSalle Investment Management where he was a Managing Director and Global Head of Sustainability. Prior to LaSalle, Mr. Duchon spent over 9 years at Cushman & Wakefield as the Director of Sustainability Strategies. Mr. Duchon received a BBA from Emory University – Goizueta Business School and a Masters in Real Estate Development Degree from New York University Schack Institute of Real Estate. John Fitzpatrick: John Fitzpatrick is Chief Technology Officer of Alternative Asset Management Technology at Blackstone. He handles all aspects of technology across Blackstone's Real Estate and Private Equity businesses and assists our portfolio companies with managing their technology programs and strategy. He is also involved in the firm's balance sheet investments in targeted, early stage, technology-related opportunities. Prior to his current role, Mr. Fitzpatrick oversaw various initiatives across the entire Technology and Innovations group. Before joining Blackstone in 2011, Mr. Fitzpatrick worked at Capital IQ, a division of Standard & Poor's, for seven years where he was most recently the Head of Product. He received a BS in Finance from St. John's University and currently serves on the Blackstone Charitable Foundation's Leadership Council. About Blackstone: Blackstone is the world's largest alternative asset manager. We seek to create positive economic impact and long-term value for our investors, the companies we invest in, and the communities in which we work. We do this by using extraordinary people and flexible capital to help companies solve problems. Our $941 billion in assets under management include investment vehicles focused on private equity, real estate, public debt and equity, infrastructure, life sciences, growth equity, opportunistic, non-investment grade credit, real assets and secondary funds, all on a global basis. Further information is available at www.blackstone.com. Follow @blackstone on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. About Our Host Louisa Dickins Louisa is the co-founder of LMRE, which has rapidly become the market leading global PropTech recruitment platform and search consultancy with operations across North America, United Kingdom, Europe and Asia-Pacific. To promote the industry she is so passionate about, Louisa set up the Global podcast ‘The Propcast' where she hosts and invites guests from the built environment space to join her in conversation about innovation. About LMRE LMRE is globally recognised for leading the way in Real Estate Tech & Innovation talent management. From the outset our vision was to become a global provider of the very best strategic talent to the most innovative organisations in PropTech, ConTech, Smart Buildings, ESG, Sustainability and Strategic Consulting. At LMRE we are fully committed at all times to exceed the expectations of our candidates and clients by providing the very best advice and by unlocking exclusive opportunities across our global network in the UK, Europe, North America and Asia-Pacific. Timestamps: [2:06] Eric: What is your role at Blackstone? I lead ESG for Blackstone Real Estate globally, this means myself and my team work with all the departments at Blackstone to ensure we are implementing our ESG priorities as they are aligned with our fiduciary duty to add value to our portfolio and deliver great returns to our investors. We are finding ways to continue delivering value and ensuring that we are improving the environmental, social and governance performance of our companies and our assets. [4:44] John: What are your responsibilities in your role at Blackstone and how have they changed? My responsibility is alternative asset management technology, this involves everything under our private equity and real estate umbrellas, it's more than half of the AUM at Blackstone and really fits within ESG. [5:35] Eric: What does ESG mean to Blackstone and how has it changed since you joined in 2020? There were great initiatives happening across Blackstone when I joined with regards to ESG however, the firm needed a more programmatic approach which is what we have done over the last 2 years. We're focused on 3 main areas; diversity, decarbonisation and good governance. This guides everything that our ESG teams do and how we continue to integrate this more programmatic approach into our portfolio. [7:40] John: How does your team assist with the ESG part of Blackstone? If you want to hit targets and goals then you need to be able to get the data and track it to see your progress over an extended period of time.  It's our job to collect that data in the most streamlined fashion so we can process that content in real time to ensure we are driving towards those targets [9:05] John: Are there any more climate focused ESG investments across your portfolio that you could share with us? The data and insights that we have got from Sphera have helped us improve and learn in this space and helped our ESG technical ecosystem. [9:42] Eric: How do these investments assist with your portfolios? We worked to develop a framework which sets out Blackstone Real Estates ESG priorities across 6 pillars, these set the tone for how we engage with the portfolio companies in order for them to develop their 3 year strategic ESG roadmaps. [13:31] John: How do you tackle the technology gaps in businesses across your portfolio? We use our data initiatives to help them implore technology and try to make the transition as seamless as possible. We can then analyse and track their data and help them achieve their targets. We tend to make investments in solutions that have a competitive advantage or a unique data set like Sphera.  [17:11]  Eric: What are the main barriers when it comes down to reducing carbon across your portfolios? A couple of years ago the social aspect of ESG was focused around  health, wellness and community engagement. Today, it is more focused on diversity, equity and inclusion. When we look at PropTech solutions for ESG one of the main barriers is being able to identify what the strengths and weaknesses are. There are some really good processes in place but humans are still necessary to ensure the quality data flows through. We need to ensure that we have the right people that understand the technologies and can drive action from it. [20:45] John: Is there anything you would like to mention that you have seen in terms of barriers? Technology is important but having a clear strategy is the starting place that people should have if they want to achieve their ESG targets. [23:00] Eric: What is the balance between automation and optimisation, and reducing carbon footprint?  We need the technologies that help us automate and optimise our buildings but this also requires the people that know what they're doing. When our US office portfolio company EQ office implemented Aquicore, it really improved our insight into the daily operations of all the operating equipment. This allowed us to recognise better start-stop sequences in the building. L – Touch on the main lessons you have learnt throughout your career within this space? Eric: You need to stay nimble in everything that you do, different things come at you everyday and you need to be able to take them in your stride. M - Please give a mention to anyone / product / service. John: Jonathan Gray, President at Blackstone, he is committed to ESG and doing it the right way.  R – What has been the most  rewarding  aspect of working in ESG? Eric: Whether you're reducing carbon emissions, whether you're ensuring that folks from under-resourced communities are getting better opportunities working with our portfolio companies. That to me is what drove me into the space connecting the passion to drive change. E - What are you excited about in the future of the ESG space? John: The innovation that is coming down the pipe, some of the best and brightest minds are in this space that are really passionate about this topic so the landscape in a few years time is going to look vastly different. Sponsors Launch Your Own Podcast A Podcast Company is the leading podcast production and strategic content company for brands, organisations, institutions, individuals, and entrepreneurs. Our team sets you up with the right strategy, equipment, training, guidance and content to ensure you sound amazing while speaking to your niche audience and networking with your perfect clients. Get in touch jason@apodcastcompany.com

This episode of Tech Sales Insights is the last part of our conversation with Eric Brock, Chairman & CEO of ONDAS Networks and Diana Shapiro, CEO of Dynam.AI. They talk about who their buyers are and what it takes to weather recessions and come out of them successfully. They also share some of the insights they've gained from mentors and their own personal experiences. HIGHLIGHTSIt takes different skill sets and experiences to be successfulAutomation helps cut costs in a recessionary timeSelling to non-tech-savvy buyers in target marketsDiana and Eric share about the mentors they've learned from and the things they also want to teach QUOTESWeathering the trying times in a struggling financial market - Eric: "You have to deal with outside forces. And today those forces are difficult, they're tightening up. I think in this environment, like everyone, you have to spend time prioritizing what you need to do. You could have a hundred things to do but you can actually do them all in the next 6 months and you have to make these difficult decisions."Value selling when going through recessions - Diana: "The easiest way to increase the bottom line is by cutting costs. While that's not what salespeople want to hear, they can position themselves with companies that are looking to help companies reduce costs, increase ROI, and the very best way to accomplish that is through automation." Find out more about our guests in the links below:About EricAbout Diana Send in a voice message to us: https://anchor.fm/salescommunity/message This episode of Tech Sales Insights is brought to you by:  Sales Community | https://www.salescommunity.com/OpenSymmetry | https://www.opensymmetry.com/ 

We're back for Episode 88! In this episode Cody and Eric catch up on the news + 6 Good Games With Female Protagonists. We are doing news for the first monthly episode and then "catching up" later in the month.   Episode Guide ---------------- 6:48 - Quick Questions 34:38 - Patreons 38:24 - Eric's Take 1:00:40 - Cody's Corner 1:13:36 - News 2:06:26 - 6 Good Games - Female Protagonists   News ---------------- (Frank) We are one of the show sponsors and we will be at the event selling stuff. World of Retro Computing Expo in Kitchener, ON  on Aug 28   12:00 – 5:00  https://twitter.com/retrorewindca/status/1555601161754927110?s=21&t=IAVcLvlRVa7rCqo3dq0mSw  (Cody) Spidersaurs from Wayforward  (Cody) Lego Atari - https://www.lego.com/en-us/product/atari-2600-10306?ef_id=CjwKCAjwi8iXBhBeEiwAKbUoffUnuKChmiVCp3dKfteaC_Hdj8wCkC57LtPXL6uvWwo-x8Kh0T22BRoChCgQAvD_BwE:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!790!3!529323598319!!!u!1712993162820!&cmp=KAC-INI-GOOGUS-GO-US-EN-RE-SP-BUY-CREATE-PLA-SHOP-BP-SP-RN-SMART_SHOPPING_BESTSELLERS  (Eric) Hyperblaster is coming to the Neo-Geo (Inviyya II from Amiga) - https://www.indieretronews.com/2022/07/hyperblaster-is-coming-to-neo-geo-and.html?m=1  (Cody) Power washing Simulator!  https://www.thegamer.com/power-wash-simulator-review/  (Eric) PICO ZX Spectrum 128k - https://hackaday.io/project/186039-pico-zx-spectrum-128k    (Cody) Turbo Golf Racing https://turbogolf.racing/  (Tim) - Rollerdome – Steam game coming in the next few days. Cell Shaded (Jet Grind Radio inspired) Rollskating, trick pulling third person shooter!  Rollerdrome is a singleplayer third person action shooter that seamlessly blends high-octane combat with fluid motion to create an action experience like no other. Dominate with style in cinematic, visceral combat where kills net you health and pulling off tricks and grinds provide you ammunition, in this adrenaline-pumping action shooter.  Rollerdrome - Official Reveal Trailer  (Eric) You can now use your Switch's retro controllers to play Steam games   - https://www.gamesradar.com/you-can-now-use-your-switchs-retro-controllers-to-play-steam-games/  (Cody) Sonic Triple Trouble 16-Bit https://gamejolt.com/games/sonictripletrouble16bit/322794  (Cody) https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2022/08/sonic-3-movie-locks-in-december-2024-release-date  (Cody) https://retrododo.com/higround-launches-new-sonic-dreamcast-mechanical-keyboards/  (Eric) CAPCOM ARCADE 2ND STADIUM INCLUDES ANOTHER 32 RETRO GAMES - https://pixelkin.org/2022/07/25/capcom-arcade-2nd-stadium-includes-another-32-retro-games/    (Cody) https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2022/06/never-before-seen-famicom-port-of-taito-arcade-game-the-fairyland-story-discovered  (Cody) Sydney Hunter on the NES... finally! https://www.indieretronews.com/2022/07/sydney-hunter-and-caverns-of-death-is.html  (Eric) Shallow Domains – A new strategy game for the c64 (with hexes!) - https://drmortalwombat.itch.io/shallow-domains  (Cody) Arcade 1Up Terminator Arcade - https://arcade1up.com/products/terminator-2  (Cody) https://retrododo.com/rayz-collection-announced/  (Eric) Before We Leave – New game for Nintendeo Switch - Grow, gather and manage resources to help your settlements thrive, and share goods between the hexagonal lands and planets around you. Relax and expand the fabric of your growing societies and create a solar system of happy planets at your own pace. - https://www.nintendo.com/store/products/before-we-leave-switch/ - Team 17!!!  (Cody) New Shmup for Genesis Coming – ZPF from Megacat! - https://megacatstudios.com/pages/zpf  Please give us a review on Apple Podcasts! Thanks for listening! You can always reach us at podcast@pixelgaiden.com. Send us an email if we missed anything in the show notes you need. You can now support us on Patreon.  Thank you to Henrik Ladefoged, Roy Fielding, Matthew Ackerman, Josh Malone, Daniel James, 10MARC, Eric Sandgren, Brian Arsenault, Retro Gamer Nation, Maciej Sosnowski, Paradroyd, RAM OK ROM OK, Mitsoyama, David Vincent, Ant Stiller, Mr. Toast, Jason Holland, Mark Scott, AmiWest,  and Paul Jacobson for making this show possible through their generous donation to the show. Support our sponsor Retro Rewind for all of your Commodore needs! Use our page at https://retrorewind.ca/pixelgaiden and our discount code PG10 for 10%

Do you need to shift your focus from money to purpose? When you have a goal of improving people's lives your focus will shift and your nonprofit will succeed.  Remarkable Quotes: Eric: Success in any way is to have a disciplined morning  Travis: Provide value to people first, when you're focused on money, you end up closed-handed Eric: You want to be at the beginning of the wave, ride it up to the crest. Timing is everything, Eric: We're all architects of our own lives   Highlights: {01:15} The importance of starting your day off right.  {05:00} Going to Asia to build a Gym Empire {10:25} Trusting your instincts  {16:15} Be at the Beginning of the Wave {26:15} Having the goal of improving people's lives, not just making money {39:32} Knowing your self worth   Eric Levine bio: Eric Levine started in the fitness industry in 1979, when he was the first franchisee for Golds Gym, and opened a chain of six clubs. These six clubs were the most profitable in the entire Gold chain of more than 100 clubs. During that time Mr. Levine established Super Gym Advertising and Marketing company, the exclusive worldwide agency for all Gold's Gyms, winning many international awards including the silver medal at Cannes! Eric then became a partner with Ray Wilson Family Fitness Centers, which grew to 72 locations. Eric went on to Asia and created California Fitness in Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, Thailand, Vietnam, and Australia. His clubs broke every imaginable record for fitness centers around the world. Eric then sold the chain of California Fitness centers to 24Hour Fitness, retaining a share in that company. In 2004 24Hour Fitness sold for an incredible US$1,700,000,000. Eric was also the founder of Planet Yoga and Bikram Yoga in Asia, the first large yoga studio anywhere! Eric is currently an investor with Mark Mastrov in New Evolution Ventures which owns and manages such companies as UFC gyms worldwide. Eric has an exciting new company, combined with Revolution Recrafted, in a partnership with world champion boxing legend Manny Pacquiao! The new company is called Hitt by Manny and provides a boxing and full-body workout in a boutique setting. Eric is also the CEO of Eric Levine Global Fitness Expert, a fitness consulting company specializing in all aspects of the industry! Connect with Eric: ericlevine55@gmail.com   Nonprofit Architect Podcast Links More Episodes http://nonprofitarchitect.org/blog   Ultimate Podcast Guide https://nonprofitarchitect.org/ultimate-podcast-guide/   Ultimate Podcast Course fully WASC accredited https://envisageconnect.com/education-training/partner-products/synergy-learning-institute/   Subscribe and Leave a Review https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/nonprofit-architect-podcast/id1481292481   Get Fully Funded with Sharing the Credit https://mpro.sharingthecredit.com/appointly/appointments_public/form/DBF73E8A-7D93-438E-B42C-6683022EE380

Do you need to shift your focus from money to purpose? When you have a goal of improving people's lives your focus will shift and your nonprofit will succeed.  Remarkable Quotes: Eric: Success in any way is to have a disciplined morning  Travis: Provide value to people first, when you're focused on money, you end up closed-handed Eric: You want to be at the beginning of the wave, ride it up to the crest. Timing is everything, Eric: We're all architects of our own lives   Highlights: {01:15} The importance of starting your day off right.  {05:00} Going to Asia to build a Gym Empire {10:25} Trusting your instincts  {16:15} Be at the Beginning of the Wave {26:15} Having the goal of improving people's lives, not just making money {39:32} Knowing your self worth   Eric Levine bio: Eric Levine started in the fitness industry in 1979, when he was the first franchisee for Golds Gym, and opened a chain of six clubs. These six clubs were the most profitable in the entire Gold chain of more than 100 clubs. During that time Mr. Levine established Super Gym Advertising and Marketing company, the exclusive worldwide agency for all Gold's Gyms, winning many international awards including the silver medal at Cannes! Eric then became a partner with Ray Wilson Family Fitness Centers, which grew to 72 locations. Eric went on to Asia and created California Fitness in Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, Thailand, Vietnam, and Australia. His clubs broke every imaginable record for fitness centers around the world. Eric then sold the chain of California Fitness centers to 24Hour Fitness, retaining a share in that company. In 2004 24Hour Fitness sold for an incredible US$1,700,000,000. Eric was also the founder of Planet Yoga and Bikram Yoga in Asia, the first large yoga studio anywhere! Eric is currently an investor with Mark Mastrov in New Evolution Ventures which owns and manages such companies as UFC gyms worldwide. Eric has an exciting new company, combined with Revolution Recrafted, in a partnership with world champion boxing legend Manny Pacquiao! The new company is called Hitt by Manny and provides a boxing and full-body workout in a boutique setting. Eric is also the CEO of Eric Levine Global Fitness Expert, a fitness consulting company specializing in all aspects of the industry! Connect with Eric: ericlevine55@gmail.com   Nonprofit Architect Podcast Links More Episodes http://nonprofitarchitect.org/blog   Ultimate Podcast Guide https://nonprofitarchitect.org/ultimate-podcast-guide/   Ultimate Podcast Course fully WASC accredited https://envisageconnect.com/education-training/partner-products/synergy-learning-institute/   Subscribe and Leave a Review https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/nonprofit-architect-podcast/id1481292481   Get Fully Funded with Sharing the Credit https://mpro.sharingthecredit.com/appointly/appointments_public/form/DBF73E8A-7D93-438E-B42C-6683022EE380

Bella - Thank you for your wonderful explanation on life. What about these exceptions the caller was talking about? Eric - You proved through Vickie's call what Lincoln said that “if slavery isn't wrong, then nothing's wrong.” Mary - Why not emphasize the fact that there is more help available for women in troubled pregnancies? Collette - Brought my daughter to have an abortion. She started to cry and we left she is now a wonderful mother of five children. Conan - I was given a statue of Buddha and a masonic sword. What should I do with them? Jackie - America should be supplying our own oil. We are funding both sides of the war by how we purchase oil. Richard - Coming from the male perspective. I used to be more indifferent. My wife and I have been married for 12 years and have been struggling with infertility and it's heartbreaking to see that so many people have such disdain for life. John - My sister just told me that her husband filed for divorce. I need advice. Can you help? Patrick - I received an email about a local university who is hosting a day of discernment for women called to the diaconate. What can you tell me about what the Church teaches about ordained women? Joe - I work for an IT company that supports Planned Parenthood. Is that ok?

Our guest today is Eric Kinariwala, founder and CEO of Capsule. Capsule is the pharmacy that delivers your prescriptions, the same day, for free. We discuss the pharmacy visit that led to his aha moment of founding Capsule, his approach to integrating technology with picking up your prescriptions, and how he approached expansion and scale. Here are some of the questions I ask Eric: You started your career as an investor. Was your goal always to become an entrepreneur. Why did you decide to start Capsule? How did you figure out this was a service other people might also like to have? Did you do any market research?Why was it so badWhat's the role of the pharmacist?How could you go solve the problemThe first thing was to build a pharmacy?How do you deliver the highest quality experience?Why did doctors, consumers love it at the early days? When you were thinking of starting this business, what were the first steps and the first questions you had to ask to see if this was viable? Did you have to first establish relationships with the doctors so they can send the prescription to you all, what was the process from sending in a note to delivering the medication? Winning together Everybody needs some looking after sometimes How were you able to sell prescriptions online? Was there any regulations you had to jump through? What were some of your early challenges? What were specific medications you first looked at when it came to selling? How did you think about your wedge into the market? What was your process of raising capital?What was the biggest reason why an investor passed? What was the process of finding drivers and building out the delivery business? How do you think about the future of DTC healthcare? How did you approach customer acquisition in the early days? You started in New York, how do you approach market expansion? What's one book that inspired you personally and one book that inspired you professionally?On the wings of eagles - Ross PerotThe checklist manifesto What's one piece of advice you have for founders?

About EricEric Dynowski, Managing Partner and Chief Solutions Officer at Deft, has been developing software, designing global infrastructures, and managing large technology installations for over 20 years. His background in complex infrastructure design and integration has helped him reduce customer budgets by millions.Links: Deft: https://www.deft.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: You could build you go ahead and build your own coding and mapping notification system, but it takes time, and it sucks! Alternately, consider Courier, who is sponsoring this episode. They make it easy. You can call a single send API for all of your notifications and channels. You can control the complexity around routing, retries, and deliverability and simplify your notification sequences with automation rules. Visit courier.com today and get started for free. If you wind up talking to them, tell them I sent you and watch them wince—because everyone does when you bring up my name. Thats the glorious part of being me. Once again, you could build your own notification system but why on god's flat earth would you do that? Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Thinkst. This is going to take a minute to explain, so bear with me. I linked against an early version of their tool, canarytokens.org in the very early days of my newsletter, and what it does is relatively simple and straightforward. It winds up embedding credentials, files, that sort of thing in various parts of your environment, wherever you want to; it gives you fake AWS API credentials, for example. And the only thing that these things do is alert you whenever someone attempts to use those things. It's an awesome approach. I've used something similar for years. Check them out. But wait, there's more. They also have an enterprise option that you should be very much aware of canary.tools. You can take a look at this, but what it does is it provides an enterprise approach to drive these things throughout your entire environment. You can get a physical device that hangs out on your network and impersonates whatever you want to. When it gets Nmap scanned, or someone attempts to log into it, or access files on it, you get instant alerts. It's awesome. If you don't do something like this, you're likely to find out that you've gotten breached, the hard way. Take a look at this. It's one of those few things that I look at and say, “Wow, that is an amazing idea. I love it.” That's canarytokens.org and canary.tools. The first one is free. The second one is enterprise-y. Take a look. I'm a big fan of this. More from them in the coming weeks.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. For a while I've been talking about how I started The Duckbill Group as a highly niche, highly focused consultancy aimed at one very expensive problem—the AWS bill—and that's all we do. We don't do implementation; we simply do the thing that it says on the tin. And it turns out that you can get fairly good at the problem like that in not a tremendous amount of time.And today's promoted episode of Screaming in the Cloud. My guest is Eric Dynowski, Chief Solutions Officer and Partner at Deft, which is a consulting company that is almost inverted, in the sense that they do an awful lot of stuff. And we're going to argue about it now. Eric, thank you for taking the time to speak with me today.Eric: Great to be here, Corey. Can't wait to dig in. [laugh].Corey: So, when I started this place back almost five years ago now, I was coming out of an engineering career that I found deeply unsatisfying. I had a bunch of working with computers skill sets, and I wanted to apply them to something that I could use as an independent consultant—because who would ever build a team or a company out of this?—that I could wind up doing repeatedly, so I could, you know, make money, not have a boss, and ideally work less than 80 hours a week. And fixing the AWS bill was the first one I tried; it turned out that, yeah, there is, in fact, an awful lot of expensive business problem hidden in there. And that's what I've been focusing on ever since. I get the distinct impression that your story doesn't quite sound like that one.Eric: Well, it's a little bit like that one, in the sense that I was once an engineer and a technician doing things, and had the crazy idea to go off and start a company that consulted and helped people with their technology needs. And maybe we're a little bit alike in the sense that we also have a very singular focused offering—I'm going to tease you a little bit here, Corey—is that we do one thing: we provide technology solutions for our customers. But probably what you are getting at is, “Well, that's a really broad statement, Eric, what is a technology solution?”Corey: It is. And the reason I did this is because my marketing budget was 50 bucks. So, I wanted something that the Rolodex effect is what I was after, where when someone says at a party to someone else, “Well, I have a problem: my AWS bill.” I want the answer to be, “Hey, I have someone for you to talk to.” You don't generally tend to see that with more broad statements around positioning most of the time.Eric: Sure. Sure.Corey: I also felt like if I was going to be, all right, I'm the best cloud architect advisor ever. Great, now I'm competing against folks like you and the giant consultancies that are in every country. And honestly, those folks have better airport ads than I'm going to be able to put up, at least at the time. Now, I have a platypus for a mascot. So, one wonders whether that would still hold true. You took a very different approach and have done fantastically—Eric: Yeah.Corey: —well with it.Eric: Yeah, I mean, maybe a little bit of history here is helpful. When I started my company, which was Turing Group back in 2013, we did actually focus pretty tightly just on AWS, and that's all we did. We wanted to help customers get in AWS, fix their problems in AWS, scale in AWS, manage their costs, all these sorts of things. And along the way, we had customers coming back to us saying, “We love you guys. You're doing great in [laugh] AWS, but I have other needs too.”And I started saying, “Well, I know a guy over there that does that.” And, “I've got a good friend over here at this company that does it.” And, you know, we're referring back and forth. And kind of parallel to that, one of my business partners who is running a company called Server Central was having the exact inverse problem. And, you know, they were providing managed services within the data center, managed networking capability, things of that nature, you know, helping customers build out an infrastructure to operate at scale, where it's like, “Oh, we need 1000 servers, and we need them really inexpensive, and we have to be able to manage them at scale.”And they were crushing it, doing a great job except his customer start getting back to him saying, “Love what you guys are doing. We're also using AWS, and we want some help with that.” And so, he would pick up the phone and call me and say, “Eric, can you guys help here?” And in some sense, we were competitors. I wanted to move everybody out of the data center into the cloud.And he wanted to move everyone out of the cloud back into the data center or keep them in the data center. And it was like, “Okay, this is weird, but we both have the same problem.” And so we went out to lunch and started this conversation of like, “Well, what if we weren't competitors?” [laugh].Corey: “Maybe there's alignment here.” Yeah. I think Ben Franklin once said that three moves is as good as a fire when it comes to cleaning out old cruft. And migrations are like that. I do want to call out that since I make a frequent practice of saying that multi-cloud as a best practice is foolish, I want to be clear that is in the absence of other constraints.If you're building something new, you probably should pick a provider and go all-in. I don't care which one you do—you might; I don't—but beyond that, at a significant point of scale, when a company says, “All right, we're in one provider—or a data center—and we're going to move to a cloud or other clouds.” Generally, they're correct. They have context that I don't when I'm speaking in the general case. I am not anti-multi-cloud; I am anti-multi-cloud when it is foolish and when it's badly done. Just to set my bias out there and, ideally, avoid getting some letters.Eric: You know, I tend not to disagree with that in the right context as well. When we were doing just AWS only, I think I would have argued that multi-cloud, yeah, there's no place for it. If you're going multi-cloud, you're giving up on all of the greatness that a single public cloud has to offer. You know, and by the greatness, I mean, the proprietary services they offer, and the APIs, and things like SNS and SQS and Route 53, all of those things that you could build into your application and just start using them without having to build all the infrastructure to run it. And so I would agree with you, I think, in that sense.But I wish the world were that simple and I wish the companies that we worked with operated in a nice, clean, unambiguous context. But the more you dig in, I think you realize that when you start dealing with a company, maybe, that has 20,000 employees and offices all across the country, and 25 years of legacy applications—or maybe a vision for the future that just is so massive that it requires a different point of view—and this is really where we engage. And it's interesting that you mentioned about the context, and usually, if a customer approaches us and says, “We want to go multi-cloud,” the first thing we do is put the brakes on and get away from the discussion around multi-cloud and move straight into, “What are you trying to accomplish here?” And navigate that conversation before it turns into—you know, let's not start with the solution type of discussion.Corey: Part of the problem, it seems, that when you start talking to folks about these things, especially in some vendor corners, an awful lot of self-interest that winds up informing the answers that immediately come from it, where it's, “Oh, yeah, you want to go multi-cloud.” And you scratch underneath the surface and the reason is that if you go all-in on one provider, they have nothing left to sell you, in some cases. Other times, it's by a cloud provider themselves pushing multi-cloud strongly because they know that if you go all-in on one provider, it will absolutely not be them. So, the hard part is finding someone who can serve as a trusted advisor. And I mean that in the actual sense of a person, not the crappy AWS service that tells you everything's fine when it isn't. That's ‘Plausible Advisor' at best. Let's be clear here.Eric: Well, come on. If it wasn't for Trusted Advisor, we wouldn't have a market for all the third-party analysis tools [laugh] and people like you to help us manage our costs.Corey: Believe me, if I thought a tool could solve the problem, I would have built it years ago. Tried, turned out it didn't, and well, here we are. You position what you do at Deft as starting from an advisory perspective. You're not pushing a particular product, you're not pushing any particular vendors that I'm aware of, you have a partner list that is not a single vendor, what a concept. So, it's clear that you're doing something that goes one of two ways.Either it is, yeah, we'll take money from anyone who will pay us, or alternately you're approaching it from a thoughtful perspective of trying to figure out what's going on with the customer. Based upon our conversations, I'm going to go ahead and guess it's that one.Eric: It definitely is the latter, Corey. We've certainly had many customers approach us over the years and ask for things that are a bad fit. And a bad fit might be, they're asking for technology experience we don't have. If someone came to us and said, “We want you guys to be Oracle DBAs because you do technology,” our answer is very likely going to be no. Could we learn to be Oracle DBAs? Yeah, we probably could. Do we want to probably not? Maybe?Corey: There are some very qualified Oracle DBAs out in the world, and it's—Eric: There's—Corey: —great.Eric: —there's places for people to specialize. And I think one of our virtues is to know and recognize where we belong and where we don't belong. And the good thing is, not only have we sort of built up our own partner list in terms of technology partners, strategic partners, but we also have our own internal list of referral partners where we know that something's out of our wheelhouse, and I got another company and another team here that I know can crush it and help them out. There's other areas of work that we just don't get into. If you want to outsource your IT and have a company that's going to help you figure out why your printer is not working, definitely not us.You're going to be wasting your money with a firm like us. Or maybe you want to partner in a way that isn't going to take the best advantage of the capabilities that we have, meaning you just want to take advantage of us in a halfway manner, and you want to keep an internal team and the two teams are up against one another and fighting about stuff constantly. We need to have good strong trust between our two companies and our partnerships. And so if we feel like there isn't an opportunity for that, we might walk away from it as well.So, it's not a case of everything that walks in front of us, here's a proposal. [laugh]. We definitely do some opportunity vetting and analysis. We ask a lot of questions upfront about how our customers work, what their internal teams are like, what their expectations of us are, what they want in that relationship. Is it transactional or is it strategic? We're interested in the strategic partnerships with our customers.Corey: I think this is something that is not well understood by a lot of the fly-by-night folks, for lack of a better term. I don't mean to sound disparaging, but the folks who don't seem to understand that long-term reputation is important. I mean, both of our consulting companies, although radically different in focus, have pages on our site where we list reference customers. In fact, there's some overlap between our customers. And as we look at this, you aren't allowed to put a customer logo up if they're going to take umbrage to you doing it, first off. And secondly, you don't want to put a customer logo up if people are going to ask them about their experience with you, and the response is, “Oh, they were crap.” At some point, no, let's not do that.Eric: [laugh]. That's right.Corey: The only way to get there is to deliver on an engagement in such a way that the response is, “That was great. Would you do it again?” “Can I?” And the idea of excitement of delivering an outcome where people who you've worked with become some of your biggest advocates, that's how I always viewed the proper way of building a business.Eric: Yeah. Now, I'd ask you, in terms of when you guys are providing advice to your customers about AWS spend, or someone approaches you, obviously, you're probably first thinking, “Okay, well, how much AWS spend do you have in a month and is this worth my time?” But there's probably another element of evaluation that you must do in terms of is this a good customer for us, and can we do the right thing for them? What are pieces that you guys think about?Corey: Oh, absolutely. As a general rule, we do a lot of AWS contract negotiation. And that is, if you have an AWS offer in front of you for committing to something, come talk to us; it's fun. That's half of our engagements today. The other half are cost optimization projects, and generally speaking, we aren't going to be able to effectively deliver return on investment for much less than about a million bucks a month in spend.So, I do at some point want to explore how to help people who are not already paying a king's ransom to AWS every month, but that is down the road. The next step is a conversation. It's a, “So great, you want to optimize your AWS bill.” And then my favorite is the—I get the quote-unquote, “Dumb question.” “Why? Why do you care? Why is this an actual problem other than it looks like a phone number and your CFO has some questions, what is the actual concern?”Very often, we'll find that it's not that you're spending too much on cloud, in many cases, it's that it's not understood what it's doing. “Okay, the bill is 20% higher this month. Is that new normal? Is that something that's going to inform our planning and we do adjust our expectations for what this is going to cost to run this? Is it just a mistake that someone left up?” The same questions would have arisen if the bill were 20% lower, except somehow it never is.Eric: Right, right. You know what's interesting about that, Corey is, too, also I think that you tend to tease AWS from time to time. And also I think the work you do would not be in Amazon's interest, right? They want customers to spend more money on their infrastructure and their services and their capabilities, and you're helping customers spend less. But what's interesting about that is that we're one of the few managed service partners in the country.And I don't know how much you know about that program, and what it takes to get into that program and to maintain the certification in that program. It's like a three-day audit; there's 500 control items that we have to go through. In fact, it was that program that took our business to the next level. It was that program and its rigor that took what we were doing and actually matured it and turned it into what I would consider a respectable world-class operation. But one of the interesting aspects of that audit is that there's several control items in there that ask us to show Amazon that we are taking steps to manage our customers' costs on AWS and reduce spend. And it's interesting that Amazon is the one pushing that on us and instilling that requirement as we support our customers in Amazon.Corey: It's counterintuitive, but this is one of those areas where there's no one on the other side of this issue. Of course, Amazon wants customers to spend more money with Amazon—I swear the company spends half its time lying awake at night worrying someone who isn't them is making money somewhere, at least that's how it feels some days. But they want that spend to be intelligent. They don't want the narrative to be that the cloud is just as expensive a bunch of nonsense. If there's a bunch of instances that are sitting there idle, they will advise you—if they're on top of the game—to turn them off because that is the goal. They want it to be—Eric: That's how they deliver on their promise. Right.Corey: Well, yeah. Pandemic aside, with most of our customers, what we notice a year after an engagement is that they're in fact spending more than they were when we started. But it's more efficient; it's growth that's tying into this. It becomes a component of cost of goods sold where, “Yeah, we're doing more business, so it costs us more to fulfill that business; we're perfectly happy,” is generally the response to that. And I think that everyone with a vision that extends beyond this quarter's numbers is likely to start to get into that, on some level.Eric: Right.Corey: One thing I do want to ask you is—relevant to what you just said—one thing that we do at The Duckbill Group explicitly is we have no partners, full stop. And the reason behind that is because with what we're doing around billing, and money, and contract negotiation, and the rest, as soon as we have a partner, it suddenly gives rise to a bunch of real or perceived conflicts of interest. And in this particular niche, it makes an awful lot of sense not to do that. Now, if you're in any other arena, where you're in—“Oh, you're in security, for example. Oh, we have no partners with any vendors,” the answer question becomes, “Well, what's wrong with you? What, there's no one willing to trust you? Do you think somehow you're better than all these other people?” It's the wrong answer. So, my question for you is, how do you evaluate whether you should partner with a particular company or not?Eric: Sure. Great question. Deft's reason for existence—when we think about ourselves, we reframe it as our purpose—is to deliver on the promise of technology. And if you unpack that statement a little bit is like, “Well, what the heck is the promise of technology? What does that even mean?”And what we get down to is that technology itself doesn't make any kind of promises. That router you just bought, it doesn't promise really anything; that EC2 instance you just booted in AWS doesn't really ultimately, at the end of the day, promise anything. It's incapable of making promises, but people are. And what we promise is that we can wrangle that technology, we can configure it, we can set it up in a particular kind of way, we can bring in the right components into the solution, and deliver on a promise of, “Yes, you can scale to 100 million users,” or, “Yes, you can reduce latency and improve the customer experience for your customers.” It's all about the people, and that's what we have the most of.And that's the best thing that we have in our house.s we have an inventory of highly qualified, talented, empathetic, compassionate, excited people. So, when we start thinking about our partners and who we want to partner with, what we take into consideration is what technology, tools, and capabilities do our people need to have in their toolbox, such that when we start working with our customers crafting that promise and that solution, we've got the right things at hand and at the right time. And then the second piece of it is, does the partner align well with us in terms of our vision? And in some sense, keeping us relatively technology-neutral, in the same sense that you're trying to stay neutral from that billing perspective and making sure that you're looking out and advocating for your customers first.So, when we're thinking about our partners as well, it's not that, oh, well, we want to build our whole business on top of AWS, or Azure, or in our data center. And those are the on—you know, we try to remove dogma from the picture in that sense, and try to probably be dogmatic mostly about the customer and what it is that they're trying to achieve, and being honest with them. So, it's more of a, “Hey, let's scan the horizon. Let's listen to our customers, let's understand what problems they're trying to solve, what challenges they have today. Let's evaluate the technology options on the table across the world.” Our partner might be [unintelligible 00:18:36], it might be VM, or it might be Amazon, it might be a small little company somewhere that does a niche service. But our job is to come together with all of those things and present a cohesive solution.Corey: And it's clearly working. You were the Turing Group and you wound up partnering with—you said your business partner—who was over at Server Central, which I'm just guessing from the name and assuming I hadn't paid attention to the industry for a while, sounds like it might not be fully cloud-focused, on some level, given the name. What did they do? And why was merging the right answer?Eric: Yeah. I mean, it's funny that you bring that up. Server Central. Wow, a server; who's talking about servers anymore, right? It's containers and virtualization and—Corey: But they've got to run somewhere.Eric: That's right. Serverless applications. Like, hmm, is this the right name? And I think it speaks to the 20-year heritage that Server Central has had and how they built their business. And they do and did, and we do have a cloud focus that's not related to the public cloud.We have a significant number of customers that operate on private clouds that we've built for them and manage for them, for various reasons. Some are legit and some maybe not so legit and mostly about how they feel about something. And some of them are technically driven. And after we brought the companies together, we realized that hey, you know what, we have a lot of brand equity and history and Server Central and we have to respect that. Turing Group had its own set of brand equity in the market that we had established and promoted a certain kind of ideology and thinking.And so for a short period of time, we were a little bit unsure of how are we going to bring this together in any kind of cohesive fashion? And it actually went out into the world for about a year as Server Central Turing Group. And I think my tongue twisted as I said it, [laugh]. It's a lot of words and it mostly just confuses people and makes them scratch their head. And so we went off on a journey to figure out what our reimagined new company is going to look like with all the combined services and capabilities that we have.And that's how we arrived at Deft and the idea that's how we want to engage with our customers; that's what we want our solutions to be like; that's what we want the experience in working with us to be. And we want to remove the friction and anxiety that technology can bring. It reminds me of when I was starting my first company. I spent a lot of time sort of navel-gazing, saying, “What do I like about this, and why am I doing this?” And went back to my early days as an engineer, and at the core of it was a really simple idea and it was the idea that when I helped somebody with a technology problem, they were elated. They thought it was magic. They thought it was black magic.They didn't understand how I took this goofy, strange, cryptic thing and made it do what they wanted, and I did it quickly and I did it deftly. And there was joy and they were happy and I loved that; I loved that response. I loved knowing that I helped fix this mysterious problem for somebody that just didn't even know where to begin. And I did it time and time again and it helped me grow my career. And when we started the first company, it was sort of like, I want to continue that feeling.I want to create that feeling for our customers where they feel like maybe they're stuck with some crazy complex technology problem, and because I happen to have the innate skill for understanding these things and figuring these things out and I have a team that can do it, we can create that same feeling for our customers. And we want to continue doing that today.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense. Corey: I do want to point out that, at least in my mind, there's always a little bit of, I guess, we call it technical elitism, on some level, where, “Oh, someone is working through a partner. They must be a company that's stuck in the past.” But a glance at companies that you're working with, make it very clear that's not the case. I mean, Ars Technica, New Relic, Wildbit. You've got some companies that are very forward-looking, and by no definition are these companies that don't understand cloud or understand how the internet works. It's something that I think is not fully understood among a subset of the industry that, in many cases, having a third-party partner, in many cases winds up helping you go faster, further.Eric: Yeah. It might be cliche to say—oftentimes, in cliches, there's a little bit of truth—which is, focus on what you're good at, and focus on what you're best at, and focus on your core products. And with a lot of these technology companies where you might read on the surface that, “Oh, yeah, they're a smart bunch over there. Why do they need a partner?” Technology is complicated. The stack is deep.Whether you're talking about deployment pipelines, or should I use a fiber connection on this or should I use copper? Or should we have jumbo frames enabled? Or should we be using API Gateway and Lambda functions for this? I just listed a broad range of technologies and things that solve different problems. And these customers have their own products that they have to put out into the world; those products need to be meaningful and thoughtful and aligned with their customers.And because that technology stack is complex and deep, it creates an opportunity for companies like ours—for partners—to step in, and grab a piece of that complexity, and manage it, and handle it, and help a customer with it to create the space for them to create the most excellent product. And so even though they are technology companies because you're managing this big wrangling layered technologies, abstractions, and—well, even when we talk about containerization, right, and running a small application, there's seven layers before you get to the CPU. [laugh]. And within that seven layers, there's I don't know how many lines of code, and there's how many hidden assumptions and configuration files, and you name it. And there's areas of that entire stack that we're really good at and customers derive value from that.Corey: One area that you've been relatively active within is the hybrid universe. My talking point on that has generally looked a lot like the snarky take of, “Well, you have a company in a data center today, and they're going to go all-in on the cloud. And it turns out halfway through that it's hard to move some workloads. There is no AWS/400 and they have a mainframe.” So, what are they going to do? They give up halfway, plant a flag, declare victory, and now we're hybrid as a best practice. That is not entirely accurate, but there's an element of accuracy in some cases to it.Eric: Yeah.Corey: But I don't get the sense that's how you see it. I'm left with a strong impression that it's a very intentional choice for some of your customers, that in some cases, workloads that are live in data centers, were at one point living in a cloud provider. Talk to me about that.Eric: Yeah, I like to think of it not as, like, a binary situation. And something that exists on degrees, and often times has a lot to do with the lifecycle of a product or company and the scale of a company. And we touched on this earlier in our conversation, which is that if someone approached us—maybe a startup or a smaller company—trying to migrate off of half-dozen servers and move into the public cloud, and they approached us and said, “Yeah, we need to be hybrid for this thing,” I would probably question that and I would question it really hard, and say, “Really, what are you going after here? You're going to give up a lot if you choose to go hybrid, and you won't really take advantage of some of the amazing opportunities that a full-on single cloud solution has to offer.” On the flip side, we've seen companies that started like that, were a hundred percent in public cloud on a single provider, everything's working fine.There was no issues whatsoever, except the bill, or maybe a fear of what the bill could be. And this is something that happens at scale. There's just a point where the public cloud just doesn't make sense anymore, even despite those benefits. And for the bottom line and in terms of the margins and your cost of revenue, giving up some of those additional benefits that allow you to grow and scale is worth it. And if you look at the technology landscape, there's a reason Facebook's not in AWS. [laugh].There's a reason a lot of these larger technology companies where we have hundreds of millions of users or bazillions of petabytes of data, that move out and get out of there. I mean, look at Dropbox right? [laugh]. Is Dropbox storing all their data in the public cloud? Not really, and they are a public cloud in a sense on their own, right?Corey: Yeah, they did just launch a 34-petabyte data warehouse for analytics on AWS, and they've made a bunch of big—Eric: Yeah, yeah. I mean—Corey: —deals out of that, but the core storage workload, yeah, that does not economically make sense, given their access patterns and how they have built that offering. So yeah, that is a very well understood, very specific, very niche workload. Yeah, that does not belong in AWS.Eric: We've even gone as far as launching our own multi-petabyte managed object storage solution, it's totally S3 compatible. It works identically to the way S3 works, but we have customers that actually can do better on our platform, either because we can provide lower latency, we can provide custom contracts that aren't just purely pay as you go; there's all kinds of different options that we can give our customers that are more custom and tailored to their needs that you're going to get from, “Here's your API keys have fun.” [laugh]. And so there's still a market for that stuff and there's still a need for that stuff.Corey: There really is.Eric: So, the answer is it depends, Corey. [laugh].Corey: It seems to be the answer to any nuanced question. So, if people want to learn more about what you're doing at Deft, and potentially whether it might help them with some of the challenges they're facing, where can they find you?Eric: Easy. deft.com, D-E-F-T dot com. Great, short four-letter domain name that you wouldn't believe what we had to go through to get. [laugh].Corey: I can only imagine. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.Eric: You're welcome, Corey.Corey: Eric Dynowski, Chief Solutions Officer and Partner at Deft. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a comment telling me that no, customers should in fact go all-in on your third-rate cloud.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

In today's episode, Jason is going to talk to Eric Fulwiler - Chief Marketing and Commercial Officer at 11 FS. It is a well-known consultant in the financial services space that specifically helps traditional financial institutions launched digital products. Episode Highlights:1.46: Talking about 11 FS, Eric says, “We are five and a half years old now. We work with traditional financial service institutions to help them essentially navigate digital challenges and opportunities in their industry.” 2.12: Eric explains, “We do a lot on the strategy side and open big banks, insurance companies, payment providers, wealth management businesses, navigate those changes, where the opportunities where the challenge is coming from.” 2.52: Eric explains about the product called PULSE, a library of Fintech user journeys from around the world. 3.50: “We got some really smart people in the company and many smart people in the industry that we know. We try to bring them together and give them a platform to share what they know and hopefully add value to their financial service professionals.” Says Eric.7.40: Jason says in Fintech all came in on an angle that came in with a method of monetization that challenges your model. Because at the end of the day, part of their value proposition had to be on cost. 8.35: 11-FS is really a fintech company, but we work with traditional organizations and financial services, and so it is really interesting to see the different perspectives and approaches that start-up to traditional companies take to everything, explains Eric.8.54 Eric: The start-ups can grow faster in many cases because of the approach they take to marketing and their go-to-market. The more relevant, modern, and current your marketing approach is, the better the result will be able to drive.10.18: Marketing is the function within an organization that should be closest to the customer. It is what connects the products to the customers you're building it for and trying to reach, and many Fintech do this well.11.50: Good marketing communicates the story of your business in a way that is compelling, relevant, and differentiated, and so that's what any CMO or any business needs to be focused on. 14.35: Jason affirms, in terms of marketing, companies will not do the extreme things necessarily because they don't want to alienate the mass market that big cultivated for so long.16.16: Jason points out that some fintech in this world has kind of cornered the mind on market share in certain demographics and functions, and that is unbelievably valuable because now they have become a default. 18.43: Jason asks, “How much do you think the negative hangover of 2008 the global financial crisis kind of impacts the demographic marketing, basically inhibit the willingness of that demographic or eagerness that demographic to work with traditional vendors?”20.05: Eric says that the second-best marketing is people who you know and trust already telling you that you should do something, and you see a lot of these Fintech taking that approach. 23.40: Many banks are just trying to throw everything they do at you in a digital experience in one shot because they think more is better, or that's their competitive mode, says Jason.24.15 Eric: Technology companies in general, think about how you have the attention and the connection with the customer? When they are building apps, it is not just about delivering, but how you can make the experience one that people enjoy.3 Key Points:11 FS is the layer on top of the technology that delivers the intelligence value-adding experience to the end consumer that will differentiate successful propositions from not successful propositions. What we are trying to build with Foundry is the level on top to really be able to enable those intelligent propositions, which is really what everybody should be going for.Modern marketing within start-ups and Fintech is about adding value, whereas traditional marketing is more about extracting value. It's about how do you get this customer to do that thing. The business and the brand that delivers more value is going to deliver Better Business results in the long term.Fintech, by the nature of being small, is usually shaving off a piece of the market so they can be more specific in how they communicate and what they say they offer. Fintech is certainly digital-first in the marketing approach that they deliver, and that allows them to be more relevant because they can segment their audiences better. Tweetable Quotes:“The start-ups can grow faster in many cases because of the approach they take to marketing and their go-to-market.” – Eric“Marketing is the function within an organization that should be closest to the customer.” – Eric“The company that is closest to the customer and has the most trust is the company that will win in the long term.” – Eric“You know having any business is about the people at the end of the day.” - EricResources Mentioned:Facebook – Jason Pereira's FacebookLinkedIn – Jason Pereira's LinkedInWoodgate.com – SponsorLinkedIn – Jason Pereira's LinkedInEric Fulwiler – LinkedIn Podcast Editing See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

On this BYN Breakdown, Eric and I kinda just hit record and let it all happen. In our conversation today we talk about things like religion, hypocrisy, and worldview - which, while a bit random, I feel could be useful for those who tune in, since we live in a world full of different opinions, values, and beliefs so it’s important to know how to navigate through them to create relationships. Let’s get into the conversation and hopefully, you come away with a bit of insight into your worldview and how it affects you and your relationships. Things you will learn in this episode: *[00:01 - 03:50] Opening Segment* * Welcome to the show * BYN Breakdown * Candid Conversations today * Eric jumps in about the fear of hell * The psychological impact * Programmed by society * The drug example *[03:51 - 14:13] Is Your Worldview Too Fragile?* * Eric talks about listening to preaching * A weird drawing into it * When you attack a cult * Is that me? * I talk about the sales aspect of it * The indoctrination * The funnel * No other options or assistance given * We talk about living ministry rather than working it * Doing more ministry now outside of church * Your definition of ministry * Eric talks about real ministry * Actually taking care of people * Unspotted by the world * Holding tradition over principle * Example of hypocrisy * Fear orientated operations * Tackling the fear of questioning * Facing your worldview * Travis talks about the hypocrisy in Christianity *[13:29 - 15:12] Closing Segment* * Throwing out your worldview * Being open to other answers * Final words *Tweetable Quotes:* “I feel like I’m more in ministry now than I was when - when I was. Like, I’m helping more people now.” - Eric “You have to be willing to throw everything you currently believe, your entire worldview, your reason for existing that you view - you have to throw that all up in the air and be willing to accept that somebody else might be right.” - Travis Chappell *Resources Mentioned:* * Podcast Profit Course ( https://www.podcastprofitcourse.com/register ) * Think and Grow Rich ( https://www.amazon.com/Think-Grow-Rich-Landmark-Bestseller/dp/1585424331 ) Did you love the value that we are putting out in the show? *LEAVE A REVIEW* and tell us what you think about the episode so we can continue putting out great content just for you! Share this episode and help someone who wants to connect with world-class people. Jump on over to travischappell.com/makemypodcast ( https://travischappell.typeform.com/to/kmf5p4 ) and let my team make you your very own show! If you want to learn how to build YOUR network, check out my website a travischappell.com ( https://travischappell.com/ ). You can connect with me on Facebook ( https://www.facebook.com/travis.chappell15 ) , Instagram ( https://www.instagram.com/travischappell/ ) , and Twitter ( https://twitter.com/traviscchappell?lang=en ). Be sure to join The Lounge ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/byncommunity ) to become part of the community that’s setting up REAL relationships that add value and create investments. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

There is an evolutionary process for every business, and Beardbrand is no different. When Eric Bandholz co-founded Beardbrand back in 2012, all he had was a Tumblr blog with a modest amount of followers and an Ecommerce shop selling other people’s beard products. Today, Beardbrand is a seven-figure business with multiple high selling products of its own and an entire catalog of content that customers gobble up with each new release. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Eric tells us how he fortified his brand, and how success in the digital world is all about going beyond offering just a product in a box — it’s about delivering value and the best possible experience to your customers Key Takeaways: Move away from the strict focus on simply selling as much as you can and instead aim to find the ways you can add value to your customers’ lives. That will lead to more loyalty and, in turn, more lifetime sales When you're cash-strapped, you must think of creative ways to grow the business without capital. One way to do that is word-of-mouth — you can't incentivize word-of-mouth. You have to just focus on creating an amazing experience that your customers want to talk about Site speed is more important than other features. Achieving that  means cutting out pop-up ads and other third-party plugins, which data shows often do not provide consistent or meaningful ROI For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles. Today, we have Eric Bandholz on the show, founder of Beardbrand. Eric, welcome. Eric: What is going on, Stephanie? Stephanie: Hey, hey. Thanks for hopping on here. Eric: Yeah. I'm excited for our conversation. It's going to be a lot of fun. Stephanie: Me, too. You are a true brand. You're rocking an awesome beard. Just what I expected when I was hoping to see you on video. I'm like, "He better have an epic beard, or this conversation won't go well." Eric: Well, it was funny because, actually, I shaved it all off in December, the beginning of December, of last year. That was kind of a big deal for us. That was the first time I shaved my beard completely off. Stephanie: Oh, man. Eric: She's like, "[crosstalk 00:00:44] your beard," or something like that. Stephanie: How many customers did you lose when you did that? Eric: Well, I'd like to think that we actually added a lot of customers, because Beardbrand is not about the beard. It's about the man behind the beard. We kind of support a guy's right to grow his beard as much as his right to shave it off. I really wanted to make that point, especially today, with a lot of our competitors challenging people's masculinity by not having facial hair. We want to kind of say facial hair doesn't matter at all. It's just a style. Stephanie: Cool. Eric: We did some YouTube ads on it as well, which was a lot of fun to do. Stephanie: Awesome. I'd love to dive into the background of how you started Beard Brand and the story behind that. Eric: We're in business, I think it's got to be, eight years now we launched. Stephanie: Wow, congrats. Eric: We launched in 2012 after I had grown a beard out for about a year. What happened is, at that time, I was trying to do this graphic design business or design business, and I would go to networking events and everyone would call me Duck Dynasty or ZZ Top or Grizzly Adams. Those are super cool dudes. They've got epic stories as well. As an individual, I don't identify as those kind of guys. I've got the softest hands you could ever imagine. I never touched an axe. I ended up attending this event where I met other dudes like me who are other entrepreneurs and designers and doctors and lawyers and dads. I realized there's this whole community of guys that do not fit the traditional stereotype of a bearded guy. That was the inspiration to kind of call myself an urban beardsman. Stephanie: I like it. Eric: Beardbrand was going to be the community to unite urban beardsmen and give them the tools they needed to feel confident about rocking a beard. To us, the tools don't mean just the grooming products. They mean, videos. They mean blog posts. They mean style inspiration. They mean community. Over the past eight years, we've been rolling all that out. We've gotten an epic blog and a YouTube channel with over a million and a half subscribers. We've got a private community where we connect with people. We've put on conferences for our customers to be able to connect in person. We've really worked hard to support our audiences, support our customers. I've got two business partners. We're completely bootstrapped. We have no debt. We have no outside funding. We've been able to grow to a nice size seven-figure business. Stephanie: That's amazing. Congrats on all those YouTube followers. How do you think about utilizing your content to sell your products? Was that an idea and a strategy from the beginning, or was it more organic, where you started on YouTube, and then you're like, "Well, now, we have all these followers, we should launch a product as well?" Eric: Yeah, if we'll hop in our time machine a little bit more. We launched 2012 as a blog, a Tumblr page, which I don't think anyone's ever heard the word, "Tumblr," five years [crosstalk 00:03:53]. Stephanie: Long time. Eric: We had a Tumblr page. Then, we also had our YouTube channel. This time, it was just me, as kind of a side project. I'll make a couple of posts on the blog. Then, I would just re-blog some things on Tumblr to make it look active. I think I did six videos on YouTube. It's not like, in that first year, we really built this thriving community. I think we had 300 subscribers on YouTube and just a couple of thousand visitors to our blog. It was enough that a reporter from the New York Times saw the blog and kind of quoted me as an expert. Stephanie: That's awesome. Eric: We utilized that opportunity. I convinced two of my friends to go into business with me, and said, "Hey, why don't we turn this blog into an e-commerce store?" We found a product. We started reselling it. We literally launched the website a day before the New York Times article went live- Stephanie: Wow, perfect timing. Eric: [crosstalk] a couple of days. That was kind of the spark to the business to really give us the energy to continue. Then, I had the vision that Beardbrand, the Urban Beardsman, is going to be like how Lululemon is to people for yoga or Vans shoes is to skaters. Beardbrand and the Urban Beardsman was we're going to serve these urban beardsmen. I always visualize that as apparel or accessories or clothes. I really didn't have the industry knowledge to be able to do that, and the margins are so tight on there, and some seasonality that we found grooming products was going to be that product that united the community. Eric: After, I guess, a year or two of failure after failure after failure of trying to get apparel up and accessories up, we finally admitted that we're a grooming company. For us, the content that we've created was more of not to drive sales. The products we have allow us to share our word more. We sell products as a way to kind of expand our voice and to grow our content, not as a way to create content to sell products. I think we're one of the companies that kind of view it a little bit differently. Stephanie: Got it. How do you utilize newsletters and reaching your subscribers once you have them or engaging with buyers or prospective buyers? I think I've read about some newsletter strategy that you have from day one, everyone kind of starts out in the same place to go on the journey with you. Is that still accurate? Eric: Yeah. We utilize Klaviyo to, I think they call it flows, where you have these series of emails that you send out when people join your email list. We've launched that, I think, in 2015. That's been really good. When you think about building a business, as much as you can automate and build systems and processes, then the more you're going to be able to scale your business and the more traction you're going to be able to gain. Eric: This series that we opened up with is really like an education series. I think it's a 5 or 10-part series where we teach them how to care for their beards, teach them how to care for their hair. A lot of guys still don't know how to shampoo and condition your hair. Basics like that where, honestly, they've been doing it wrong, but there's opportunity for them to improve their techniques and, ultimately, get better outcome through their journey. That's been big for us. Then, at the end of the flow, we give them a little thank you product, or free shipping, or something like that for taking the time to invest in themselves. Stephanie: Got it? Are there any best practices you would recommend other e-commerce sites when it comes to utilizing that newsletter or where you're like, "Conversions were high when we did this," or, "They were lower when we did this," or, "That thank you product really does help drive future sales," any insights around that? Eric: Yeah. A couple of things that we've found that work over the years is we have a product that is not available on our navigation. It's kind of a hidden kit that is only available to people who join our newsletter. Stephanie: Interesting. Eric: The retail value of that kit is $50. We give them a pretty aggressive price point to be able to get on board. It's kind of like a tester kit, sample kit, so they get exposure to a lot of our products. We found that that works really well because we can say, "Hey, get this tester kit, try all of our products, use these products as you're learning about the things that we're telling you, then, in two weeks or a month or whenever, when you go through the products and look to re-up them." We found that that works really well at getting people into the ecosystem and trying our products. Stephanie: Very cool. Eric: What other best practices do I have? For us, it's so much about content. I think a lot of people really err towards sales and discounts and buy from us and chest thumping. That's really not our style. I would challenge people out there to think about how you can bring value to your audience's lives. Then, if you bring enough value to their lives, then, kind of the whole Buddhism karma thing, it will come back to you. People will end up buying from you. We kind of have that outlook on the world, that if you do good things, good things will come back to you. Stephanie: Love that. How do you think about your buyer experience and making that personalized and unique to all your customers as they come in? Eric: We've invested a fair amount into our packaging to our products. The unboxing experience is nice. We use nicer primary packaging, which is going to be your bottles and your labels and your caps and all that. Then, we use nicer secondary packaging as well. When they actually get the boxes and they open it, it's pretty nice. In addition to that, we're working with our own 3PL or a third-party logistics, our own fulfillment center. We make sure that we work really closely with them that they wrap it kind of to our specifications. There's a nice little unboxing experience, a little bit of tissue paper, and a Beardbrand sticker. Then, we have what's called a thank you kit. Within this thank you kit, we have a little booklet. The booklet usually changes every quarter. For instance, one quarter, it was a book of reminders, which are kind of my nine reminders that I tell myself in life as I face adversity. Stephanie: That's great. Eric: Daily planning. It's all tied around our core message or our tagline, which is keep on growing. We're trying to, again, bring more value. You buy from us and, not only did you get great products, but we brought you a little more value outside of what the products can do. Hopefully, by delivering this experience, we can grow through word-of-mouth and loyalty and customers who want to stick around, rather than kind of going on to the next hot thing. Stephanie: I was just going to say I could see that adding to that viral experience by giving people those little presents that are really fun to share, then, just engaging with more customers because of that. It's really interesting to hear about. Eric: I'll tell you this. If you're trying to build a bootstrap company, the reality is you've got more time than money. When you're cash-strapped, you've got to think of creative ways to be able to grow the business without capital. One way to do that is word-of-mouth. You can't incentivize word-of-mouth. You have to really just truly focus on such an amazing experience that your customers want to talk about it. When you have that mentality, not only is it healthy for your business, but it's going to be healthy for your growth. It's just kind of a win-win, and the world's a better place because you're bringing that much value to the customers. Stephanie: I completely agree. Are there any success stories or big failures that you've had come from trying to generate that word-of-mouth and getting people to spread the word? Any advice around that? Eric: It's actually not a metric that we really track or keep an eye on. It's just more of a philosophy internally of just being customer first. I think, to a certain degree, you do have to integrate data. We used to include a little sample of products for people. We found that those samples weren't driving any additional sales of those products in a significant way. When you look at that, you're like, "Well, are you actually bringing value to customers if you're giving them something for free that, maybe, they didn't want or they didn't want need? Stephanie: How do you track that, or how did you know that people weren't really using it or that wasn't helping drive sales? Eric: We would send a beard wash, a little sample, a one-ounce container. Then, we would look at if there's any increase in sales of beard wash. Your data is always going to be muddy, especially when you're a company that's our size and really small. We fundamentally can't get the data. You do have to go off of a certain gap. You have to also look at, "Well, every sample is costing us," let's say, it's $1. Every order is going out, five orders is $5,000 a month. Then, if we're not seeing a boost of really $10,000 in sales to justify the cost of that, then the margin and the future order, then, you're not building a sustainable practice. Again, as a bootstrap company, you do have to think about your marketing efforts being sustainable and being able to exist on their own for a long time. Stephanie: How do you think about creating these marketing campaigns, whether it's YouTube videos? How much do you guys put out per day or per week? To me, that feels like it could be not sustainable if you don't have the right team in place, the right video crew. Especially right now, I'm thinking everything with COVID-19. Has it been hard to keep that content going out and recording the videos and launching them on YouTube and everything? Is it still pretty good, because it's a remote team doing that? Eric: It's been a really long, hard journey. To the listeners out there who are hearing our story now, eight years in is like we've had eight years to build these processes and systems and relationships. You're not going to be able to do all the things that we've done on day one. We're still cranking out about six videos a week. We've been able to do that by leveraging multiple personalities, just like you guys have multiple shows. We're kind of the same thing. It's not all on my shoulders, and worrying about me getting burnt out. Eric: We have four different regulars on our smaller channel called the Beardbrand Alliance. Then, we have, probably, maybe 4 to 10 barbers who will hit on to do these kind of barbershops style videos. We've been able to really spread the burden of the YouTube channel. Then, we have an in-house video editor who is constantly video editing. He's a machine. Then, in addition to creating these YouTube videos, we do a fair amount of advertising in the video form as well. We do have video editing handled by our ad person as well, our advertising coordinator. She'll be cranking out content that way as well. Video is great, man. I would highly suggest anyone listening that if you invest in video, you could have a pretty good competitive advantage in the marketplace. Stephanie: I completely agree. Video is where it's at. How do you make sure that your videos and your content is found? A lot of people create some really awesome stuff and then be like, "Now what? I've only had one view on it," or, "I don't know how to get people to view this video, and then take the action that I want afterwards, which is, probably, buying one of the products that I'm highlighting?" Eric: There's two answers to that. One answer is you pay for it. Really expensive, but if the content is truly remarkable, for instance, when I shaved my beard off, we filmed it. We created a 45-second ad on YouTube. To get exposure on YouTube through their advertising system, if the video is engaging, it's extremely cheap. I think we're paying a third of a penny per view. Stephanie: Yeah, that's cheap. Eric: A million impressions was, I don't have the calculator in front of me, what does that look like? Stephanie: Something great. Eric: Yeah. It's astronomically inexpensive. At the same time, you may not be targeting the right people. Now, organically, I think YouTube is going to be the platform to go, because of how they recommend videos. It's a little more evergreen than Facebook. There's certainly opportunity on Facebook and Instagram, but I'm not as strong on how to perform there. It comes down to, in the early days, the reality is no one's going to watch your content. You think that sucks, but the reality is it's awesome. Maybe, you'll have one person or two people or 10 people watch it. Then, you'll get a couple of comments. Well, you'll use those comments to get your content better and better and better. Then, by the time you've built a larger audience, you've kind of figured a lot of these things out, so you're not really damaging your audience. You think what you create is great, but the reality is it's not. Stephanie: I agree. Eric: [crosstalk] will be shared. By creating and by doing, you get the hang of it, you get more natural in front of the camera, or you get more natural on the editing process and telling the story. As you learn, it compounds on itself. If you're thinking about getting into organic video on YouTube, then plan on having, really, 20 or 50 videos that you want to produce before you really even see any kind of traction. I think it took us three years before we got 10,000 subscribers. Then, again, it compounds and you learn and create more content. You create more content faster that's more in line with what people want. Then, all of a sudden, we're able to grow to daily content and getting 10,000 subscribers a month. It takes time and it takes learning. There's a lot of insights in YouTube that you'll need to learn as well. Stephanie: I think it's really good as a reminder to kind of detach yourself from the content, because when you put something out there, it's like, "It's my baby. That was my best one yet." I remember when we were starting our company, the first couple of episodes we did on Mission Daily, Chad and myself, it didn't get any downloads. It's a brand new podcast. No one had heard about it. We didn't know how to grow the podcast at that point. I remember thinking, "That was my best episode yet. I'll never be able to do something that good again." Now, I look back on it. I'm like, "I'm very glad no one was listening to those episodes because they were not good and the audio wasn't great." It's just a really good reminder to put stuff out there more in the learning phase. Then, eventually, you can move into the really trying to find those subscribers and followers, once you get to the point where you're a bit more experienced and you've tried a bunch of things out. I love that. Eric: Yeah. So much of it is just the process, for a podcast, making sure you can line up those guests and you can post it early. That's hard work. It's easy to get the first one done, or maybe, the first couple and queue it up, but to also record and organize and plan is a very big challenge. Those are the things that you'll be solving when your audience is small. Then, as you solve those, that allows you to grow your audience. Stephanie: I agree. When it comes to solving problems when you're small, when you got the visibility from, I think, you said New York Times, and I think I read Shark Tank, when you got that visibility, were you ready? Was your website ready, your product ready, your fulfillment strategy ready? How did that go when you got those bumps in visitors? Eric: New York Times drove about $900 of sales. Stephanie: That's huge, just kidding. Eric: It actually is. I think we had $100 worth of product. It was nine times our inventory. Fortunately, we were able to solve all that. You have a lot of growing pains, I think. This is my first successful business. I had no relationships. We didn't know where to get our wooden boxes made. We always dealt with supply chain issues. Really, the first two years, as we were growing rapidly, it was just always like a fire was being put out. Then, eventually, we moved to quarterly planning, which has helped significantly in managing our inventory. Stephanie: What was the Shark Tank experience like? I haven't talked to anyone who's been on there yet. Eric: Oh, no. I'm your first breaking your show. Stephanie: Yeah, you're my first. Eric: That's virginity. This was 2014, I believe. Yeah, it's got to be 2014. Halloween 2014 is when the episode aired. A lot of things may have changed since that time. I know Shark Tank was really popular at that time. A lot of people were watching it. It's a very stressful process, because during the whole campaign, not only 80% of the people who go through the whole process are going to end up on the show. You could end up investing a lot of energy, a lot of time. You could pay a lot of money to build out this fancy display case. You could fly out there, step away from the operational needs of your business in a time where your business really needs this stuff. Then, do all that and not make it there. Eric: We always knew there is a good chance that we didn't make it there. Subsequently, we didn't put too many resources into Shark Tank. We kept our display stand, I think, we paid $300 to rent some furniture. Then, we put out some products there. It's just me going on show. It wasn't my business partners, so they could kind of focus on building the business and I just kind of focused on the Shark Tank pitch and stuff like that. Then, you get up there and it's stressful, not just because of pitching to the Sharks, which is how they make the show seem, but also knowing that whatever you do is recorded in front of seven million people. If you make a mistake, you're like, "Seven million people want to know about that." Stephanie: It's replayed over and over again, and reruns. Eric: Yeah. And, fortunately for us, I feel like Shark Tank, they did a pretty accurate representation of how I felt the conversation was. They're cutting down 45 minutes to seven minutes. They're trying to craft a story in seven minutes. Then, the hard part is all five of those sharks, they talk to you all at once and you don't know that on the show coming in. They all ask you a question right at the same time. When you see the people pitching and they're looking all over the place, it's just because five people are talking at once and they're just trying to figure out who to talk to. Stephanie: Wow. Sounds very intimidating. I do love Shark Tank, though. I hope to try and find your episode and see if I can watch it. Eric: Yeah, do it. It was a fun experience. It was like how your heart can race and go on through a roller coaster. It was really that. The whole time, it's just like the adrenaline is pumping. I'm not very good with words. I'm kind of dyslexic. I'm just hoping I'm not saying anything too stupid. I think it was a great experience all over. I think what they're doing for entrepreneurs is great, too. Stephanie: I completely agree. In early days, were you completely selling on your website? How much of it was selling direct to consumer versus wholesale, versus, maybe, utilizing Amazon would your sales strategy look with your brand? Eric: We've done a little bit of everything. We started off direct to consumer. We actually started off, as I said, as a simply an e-commerce retailer. Another people's products in the early days, until we're able to develop our own products. As we were able to get traction, we had passively, companies like barber shops and salons and pharmacists who would want to sell our products. We would kind of sell to these smaller retailers. It was never a core focus of us to bring on wholesale retailers. Eric: Then, we would get on the Amazon. This was the early days of Amazon. Hindsight is 2020. We probably missed a fair amount of opportunity on there. We really always focused on selling on Beardbrand.com. Amazon was never more than 10% of our sales. After a couple of years, we ended up pulling off of Amazon completely. You can't get our products on Amazon now. That's been a great decision for us. Then, we also brought in Target as one of our wholesalers. That happened 2018. Today, we're about half the retail and half direct on Amazon, and on any other market. Stephanie: Very cool. How do you think about separating yourself from your competitors? Not that I watched the beard space often. I don't have a beard that I know of, but I have seen a lot of beard oils coming on the market and just things focused around that. How do you separate yourself from the competitors, especially since you're an e-commerce site and you don't have a bunch of retail locations or not in a ton of places? How do you show that value on how it's different from other products? Eric: The reality is, you're always going to have a competition. If you have no competitors, then your competition is ignorance. We've kind of always embraced competitors and knowing that we're going to have competition in the sense that it's going to force us to elevate our game and provide such an amazing experience to our customers, that they'll have no option other than to go with us because we are the best. With that mentality, we've also come to terms with certain things, like we're not going to be the low price product on the marketplace. If that's the game you want, then we're not going to be a good fit for you. Eric: We try to be really clear about the value that we bring and the things that, maybe, we're not great at. There's always going to be trade off. To us, I think we do a great job because we bring all that value to our customers. Like we talked about earlier in the show, the content marketing, the education, the blog articles, the email flows, the YouTube videos, the customer service experience, the unboxing experience, I think, all of those things are what makes Beardbrand a different company and why someone would want to buy from us. If they're just some dude who doesn't really care and they just want whatever's cheap, then Beardbrand probably isn't going to be the best product for them. Stephanie: I like that idea of being upfront with, "Here's what we sell. If you don't want quality, then, maybe, go somewhere else to find something different." Do you market differently based on that? Eric: To be fair, there's other quality products out there as well. I don't think there's quality products out there that also do the education, that also do the packaging, that also do the customer experience. There's so much more to a business than what's in the package or what's in the box? I think a lot of companies get so focused on their product. Anyone can rip off your product. They can exactly copy your product. They can come down to an exact tee. Then, if that's all you're standing on, what do you have there? Then, it becomes a race to the bottom for the price. Eric: When you build a business, you have to think beyond your product. You have to think about, "How can I really bring value to my customers that is beyond the product?" The product alone is not going to do it. Stephanie: Got it. I love that. How do you think about building better business models for other e-commerce companies? I was looking at, I think, on Twitter, you had an experience with West Elm. I guess they had marked down a table. You kind of went through how e-commerce companies need to figure out how to develop better business models. What is your advice around that? Maybe, you can highlight that experience a bit, because I didn't read the whole thread. Eric: Yeah. A little background story. I bought that table, that table I'm actually using for my podcast studio. 25 days later, they put on a sale where I could get the exact same table, but it cost me 75 days, or excuse me, $75 less. As a consumer, that's kind of frustrating, because you kind of feel like an idiot for not waiting out. I would have waited 25 days to save 75 bucks. Personally, I don't think that's a good experience. I recognize they're doing sales, they're doing weekly sales, and some sales are better than others. To me, I feel like, have some kind of policy in place where, within a certain time frame, whatever you feel is appropriate: two weeks, a month, two months, whatever, that you can guarantee the offer that you're giving to them. Eric: It doesn't even have to be a money back guarantee. It could be a store credit guarantee. Then, I think that's going to encourage a lot more confidence in the consumers. Also, consumers will be more likely to buy from them again, because if you have the alternative where you're just like, "I know you screwed; you missed out on this one; you already bought it," then, it's like, "Well, next time, I'm just really going to wait. I'm just going to wait until I know there's an incredible deal," or, "I'm just not going to buy at all because I don't want to feel like I want to be made a fool again." Eric: You run the risk if you're running sales all the time and they're not the exact same sale. Not everyone will feel this, but some people will subconsciously be feeling this. There's quick and easy ways to really just guarantee the experience about it. I don't want to tell people how to run their business and their policy. I'm not mad at them. I'm just kind of calling them out that I think they could do better. Then, to be fair, West Elm reached out to me on Twitter and they offered me store credit. Stephanie: That's nice. Eric: You don't want to have to really fight and argue for that. You just want them to make it right. Stephanie: I think that's a good point, though. Also, that big brands are looking to smaller companies and the individual consumer to kind of learn from. That's a really good point of making the consumer feel good after a purchase and not having buyer's remorse. I've definitely had that experience before of buying something and then seeing a discount afterwards, and then waiting the next time, and then there's no more inventory. Then, I just never go back again. Those little moments definitely matter. Eric: Well, then you think about, the whole West Elm experience for me is, I couldn't do a live chat or email them about it. I had to call them. Then, I called them and I was on hold for 25 minutes. Then, after 25 minutes, they pretty much told me I could ship the thing back and then buy a new one, but shipping would not be reimbursed. Financially, it wasn't going to make sense. It's like, "Okay, this is how you're going to do it." Then, as a small company, you think that these large companies have all the advantages because they can buy in bulk and get better prices. Well, a lot of people don't buy based on products. They buy because they want to be able to reach out to you and talk with real person, not be on hold for 25 minutes. Those are the things that I want you to think about as you build your business, how you can compete with Amazon and how you can compete with West Elm and Walmart and these giant companies out there. Stephanie: I love that. What's one thing that you wish online sellers would start and stop doing? I'm asking you this question because I see you're big in the e-commerce community, always talking and highlighting different e-commerce stores. You've probably seen a lot of best practices that sellers do, and some things are like, "You should just stop. That's not good." Eric: Going back, I don't want to tell anyone how to run their business. There's a lot of ways to build a business. It kind of comes down to who your audience is and what they're okay with. A couple of things that we've always avoided is we don't want to do pop-ups. There's no pop-ups. There's no tricks. There's no immediate discounts. One of the things that is a pet peeve of mine is, "Here's a pop-up. Do you want to save 10% on your next order?" Then, they click x or, "Close out of this if you don't want to save money," something kind of condescending like that; or, with the little spin wheel. I think a lot of these has become a little hokey. Eric: The people selling those software as a service thing always claim that they work. We've actually cut a significant amount of our third party plugins, just because it made our websites so bloated. Stephanie: I was reading about that, how quick were you able to get your website down? I think I saw four seconds. Eric: Oh, my god. We were doing a speed test on our old website. The homepage on the desktop, I think it would have been in the 40 range score. Then, I think the mobile side would have been in the 20 to 25 range, the score [crosstalk 00:34:34]. Then, we essentially rolled out a new website template, a new website theme, killed all the third-party plugins. The new speed is now around 77 for the desktop and around 40 or 45 for the mobile. Stephanie: That's great. Eric: I don't know what that is in actual load times, but in terms of data, according to Google, it's a significant increase. Some of our blog posts would take 10 seconds to load. We really just went and found the stuff. It wasn't just the theme, too. We had some images that we uploaded, which were two megabytes in size, something ridiculous like that. It's just kind of like eight years into having a business and a lot of people putting their hands into the business, it gets a little you lose sight of things. It's always good to circle back every once in a while. Stephanie: I think doing that audit is really important, because like you said, after many years, people are implementing their own things without thinking about the long-term strategy of it and how it might impact things. I think, web chat is one thing where a lot of websites have the digital chat, but that increases the website's load time by a ton. Maybe, people don't even fully utilize it. They would rather call or send an email. It's good to just do that audit, I'd say, at least yearly. Eric: We had one of those live chats. I think it presented some issues because, sometimes, a little pop-up would block information or block the "Add to Cart" button. Stephanie: Oh, man. They're like, "I'm just trying to buy and you're not letting me." Eric: Exactly. It's just like as templates get uploaded or themes get updated, things get reverted. We killed it. We no longer have that JavaScript burden of loading. Those chat bots are fundamentally the things that slow down your page load speed the most, I've seen. We haven't seen any drop in conversion rates or sales. Then, in addition to that, the alternative, what we did is we just moved to a phone number that people can text. I think what we're getting is people who are more serious about needing advice rather than just kind of casual looky-loos who see a little pop-up and they're like, "Oh, yeah, da-da-da-da-da." Stephanie: I that, looky-loos. Eric: That's what my mom calls them. Stephanie: That's good. What metrics are you paying attention to most? You've mentioned conversion rates. Now, we've talked about website speed. Are there a certain set of metrics that you pay the most attention to? Eric: Yeah. I'm like your typical A.D.D. entrepreneur. Being in the details on a daily basis is really hard for me. Everything I do is kind of on an ad hoc basis. When it comes to YouTube, the things that we really look at are our watch time and our click through rate. They're going to be the big indications if a video is going to be successful or not. Then, on our website, really, I'm the top level kind of guy, so I'm looking at revenue. I'm looking at orders. Then, on the ad hoc level, I look at how our blog is converting, then, how our traffic outside of our blog, two of our stores is converting. Then, our page speed has been something that's been a pretty big metric for me, lately. Then, there's so many other more metrics that I should be looking into that I'm fortunate that we have team members who are looking for [crosstalk 00:38:09]- Stephanie: Do that for you. Eric: ... email performance and how those are doing. Stephanie: Is there any themes around either video content that you put out or blog content that you've seen, certain types of videos? Maybe, funny ones convert better or more how-to blog content converts better. Any best practices around releasing content in a strategic way that will actually create a future buyer? Eric: Our strategy is to leverage YouTube's organic growth. To do that, you need to have the viewers want to watch more of your content and stay on YouTube. The strategy isn't really so much of, "Hey, buy this," or, "Be aware of this." It's more of get awareness of the brand. We try to integrate a lot of branding on our videos. We put our taglines on every video, to keep on growing and change the way society views beardsmen. All those call outs in the lower thirds. Then, we try to integrate product placements in our videos as well. It's just bringing awareness to it and not driving people off the YouTube. Eric: Subsequently, when you do that, you're less concerned with any kind of direct sales that you're getting from videos. One great plugin tool that we've used on our Shopify store is called Grapevine. Grapevine allows you to have a simple one-question survey that you put at the end of after they've purchased. We use that to say, "Hey, how did you first hear about us?" We have about 20 different options, from Shark Tank to our YouTube channel to various YouTube personalities. We found that 40% of our customers have first found out about us from YouTube. Eric: Being able to attribute that any particular video, we can kind of segment it a little bit. 18% of it is from our barbershop videos, which was a fair amount. Beyond that, you just kind of have to trust the process. Stephanie: Got it? Do you find influencers in the space? When you're talking about having these barbers do these videos, do you find someone who already has a following? Do you kind of create that following organically through under your brand? Maybe, it's someone that no one would have ever known about, but you just know that they're a great personality to do the video? Eric: A little of both, I would say. One of our most or one of our longest tenured relations, well, we've got a couple of long tenured relationships with influencers, Carlos Costa. We reached out to him back in 2013. He's been with us kind of since then as an influencer for the brand. Then, he's grown to make videos for us. Then, he reached out to Greg Berzinsky, who at that time, I think he had, maybe, 20,000 or 30,000 followers on Instagram. He's a big believer in the brand. Eric: We try to find people who really love your brand, who love the products, who love what we're doing. It's just easier for them to be excited about it. We also try to work with smaller influencers, those who are, maybe, still getting established, or who have a following because they're not influencers. Tobias van Schneider is another one. He's another business owner. He's got other businesses. He's not making money from promoting products. He's more likely to talk about our products and not ask for compensation, which is something that you need as a bootstrap company, to be able to make your dollars go far. Eric: It's been a little bit of that. Then, we have had employees at Beardbrand who are like, "Hey, man. Get on camera. Talk about this. You've got a great beard." They've done that. We've done a little both and have had success and challenges and both processes as well. Stephanie: That's very cool to experiment with all those different types of models. I like the idea of having the employees be the influencer. I know that a lot of companies in Asia are doing this. I haven't seen a lot of companies in the US fully utilizing that model of creating micro-influencers within the company, and then developing their own followings. That's just a nice organic way to do it. Having someone who is an actual expert on the product without being too salesy, because they're not a salesperson. Eric: We try it, too. If you look at our Instagram account, the Beardbrand account is replying to comments, you'll always see Sylvester. He's replying to him. He'll sign his name, or whoever's replying to a comment. On YouTube, they'll sign their name. We're totally in favor of get to know our people, get to know our copywriter, Mike, and get to know our growth marketer, James. Eric: Again, we talked about how you compete with Amazon. Amazon doesn't have a James. They don't have a Mike. They don't have a Lindsey. They don't have a Jordan. They don't have Chandler. But, we have those people. The more we can help them get to know the team. Then, the risk is if you just work with one person within your company, then, that person could hold you hostage or quit or leave or getting a DUI or do something like that. If you have 10 or 20 different people on the regular who you integrate into your content, then, in the natural course of business, as people move on and things change, then, you'll still be able to move forward. Stephanie: In a world where everything is becoming automated and you always know you're talking to bots, I think it's actually nice how certain business models are kind of flipping that. You're mentioning about developing a relationship with the person at the company where you are used to seeing the same name and you kind of are developing an Internet relationship with someone at the company that you trust and grow to love. I like how that model is kind of reversing a bit over the past year. Eric: Sylvester, who I mentioned, that's his full time job, is he runs a community. His responsibility is to build those relationships. He's heading up our private forums. He's putting on these events. He's interacting with people on Twitter and Instagram. As they chat on Twitter, and as they chat on YouTube, and they see the same name over and over again. They start to learn about him. Eric: In our emails, we'll have a photograph of him. We'll talk about him. We'll talk about the style. People will start to trust his input because, obviously, me as the founder, a lot of videos or a lot of views to those videos, a lot of people want to come and talk to me, but I can't interact with 40 people a day and still run the company and have sanity, really. Well, to scale up what I bring, and not only that, Sylvester's got way more incredible style than me. He's a lot more empathetic than me. He's able to really provide these people great advice in a way that I cannot. It brings a lot of joy to me to be able to offer that to our audience, and also, that Sylvester is able to do what he loves. Stephanie: That's really fun. To zoom out a bit, go a little bit higher level, what kind of digital commerce trends are you most excited about that are coming down the pike right now? Eric: Probably, the thing I don't follow too much is the trends. I feel like we just kind of fall into them. SMS is something that a lot of people are talking about, and something that we've actually been doing for a good half a year now. We do it in a way that, I think, most people aren't doing it. Most people see SMS as just another channel to market and throw sales and discounts. That drives consumers crazy. If I see someone marketing to me on SMS, I'm just like, "You're dead to me." How we're using it is as style consulting. You text us, send us a photo. Stephanie: That's good. Eric: SMS is perfect for that because you got your phone there, take a selfie, send it to us, we can tell you where you're trimming your beard, how your neckline is coming in, what your hairline looks like, and what kind of hairstyle will work for you. I think that's an excellent way to use SMS. It's funny. Once we started using SMS that way, the company we work with, Emotive, they actually changed their whole marketing position to be more about style consultants and beauty consultants, and things like that. Stephanie: That's funny. Eric: I want to take full credit for that, but I would like to say we had a little bit of influence in the way that they're selling us on this. I think that's better for the consumer as well to be able to connect with them on a one-to-one kind of consultant basis, rather. Stephanie: How do you make sure they stick with your brand? I can see them, maybe, not having the expertise, like you're talking about, how you're trimming your beard wrong, or what kind of product you need, because of whatever they see in the photo, how do you make sure that they stick with your brand guidelines and make sure they're speaking in the way that you want and they're recommending things correctly and not giving bad advice? Eric: This goes back to our core values, which are freedom, honor, and trust. Part of the hiring process is making sure that we hire people who align with these core values. Then, it's not blind faith with trust, but through experience and interactions. I know Sylvester. I know his style. I see him show up every day in the office and what he's wearing and how he's behaving and how he communicates. It's like, "Dude, man. Go at it. Be yourself." Our brand standard is communicate to our customers in a way that you communicate to your friends. Those no corporate speak, nothing. Eric: If you're a goofy guy, talk goofy. If you're a serious guy, talk serious. Be yourself. You are going to have different experiences. Interacting with Sylvester is going to be different than interacting with Matt. They're two different people. That's totally okay. Stephanie: That's great. Are there any other channels that you're utilizing or looking to utilize over the next couple of years? Eric: For us, our goal has been, again, going back to me being an A.D.D. entrepreneur, you try a little bit of everything. The past two years has been fixing all of my A.D.D. new channels that we've been in. We killed Amazon. We killed selling in the Europe. We've cut marketing channels. It's really how do we get better at the channels we're in? How do we get better at Facebook marketing? How do we get better at Instagram marketing? How do we get better YouTube content? Eric: Like I said, we have a newer, smaller YouTube channel that we're trying to grow and build that awareness. In terms of just completely introducing anything that we've never done before, like TV advertising or radio advertising or podcast advertising, we're going to be staying away from that until we feel like we've completely capitalized on the opportunities of the channels we're currently in. Stephanie: That makes sense. I think killing projects and platforms is a good first step to making sure that you can focus on what's actually working to, then, move into a new channel around the tryout. It sounds like a good strategy to me. Eric: I'll tell you, it sucks, though, when you kill something and then you don't get better at the thing you're supposed to get better at. Stephanie: Yeah, that's a big bummer. Eric: We've done that. Stephanie: That happened a few times? Eric: Yeah. When we pulled out of Europe, Europe was about 20% of our business. We did this March 31st of last year. It was about 20% of our business. The intent was with the new focus of not having to deal with multiple fulfillment centers and different time zones and multiple stores and things like that, that we could get really good at serving our customers. Subsequently, 2019 was a terrible year for us. We weren't able to capture the lost sales that I thought we'd be able to by having more focus. We've had to really analyze. It wasn't so much selling into Europe. That was the thing. I think it was more of the internal structure of our team and kind of red tape that got put in place after seven years of business and systems and processes that kind of built up on itself. We should have taken an axe to all of that, rather than, maybe, potentially taking an axe to the UK channel. Stephanie: Got it. Is there any big initiatives that you undertook that you were like, you talked about internal processes and structures, is there any one thing that led to kind of riding the business back to where you wanted to go after the whole shutting down Europe? Eric: Yeah. Transparently, we had the worst fourth quarter we've ever had. It was a bloodbath. We were just losing a significant amount of cash and just burning through cash. We just had to make hard decisions about the business. When you're hemorrhaging money, you're not profitable, we had to scale back to 15. A leaner team means, "Hey, we're no longer going to have people proofing your work anymore. You're going to have to be responsible for your own work-end. You're no longer going to have someone who's kind of being the quarterback of the marketing team. You have to kind of interact directly with your audience, or your coworkers." By scaling back the team, you were almost, by necessity, forced to cut a lot of that red tape and focus on getting stuff done. Stephanie: Super important. All right. At the end of the interview, we'd like to do a lightning round, which is where I ask you a question and you have under a minute to quickly answer whatever comes to mind. Are you ready, Eric? Eric: I am electrified. Stephanie: Woo-hoo. All right. What's up next on new product launches coming to Beardbrand, if any? Eric: Our big thing is killing scent confusion or ending scent confusion. We want to provide head to toe fragrance and matching products. We don't have anything in your midsection. That's a little hint of a product that will be coming. Stephanie: Fun. I'll have to stay tuned for that. What's up next content or video-wise that you're excited about producing or creating next? Eric: We want to systematize our barbershop and winding in five different barbers and record over the course of a week, which would be a new way for us to perform. I can't wait to do that, but, this whole quarantine has got to end first. Stephanie: That sounds really fun. What's up next on your reading list? Eric: I hate reading. Stephanie: Podcasts, audible, anything? Eric: I hate reading. I'll tell you I just finished the book called Rocket Fuel which talks about integrators and visionaries. It was the one book that I've read over the past year. I'm just going to piggyback off of that one. Stephanie: I don't like it. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Eric: Again, man, I just had a baby five weeks ago. Stephanie: Congrats. Me, too. Eric: Oh, no way. Stephanie: Yeah. I had twins eight weeks ago. Eric: Oh, poor you. Stephanie: Poor us. Eric: It's got to be crazy, right? We're in the quarantine. Stephanie: Yeah. No Netflix for us then, huh? I don't know. I watch Tiger Kings in my off time when they're sleeping. Eric: My answer is a lot of primitive survival type of videos on YouTube. That's my go-to content that I consume. Stephanie: That's great. All right. A little harder one, what's up next for e-commerce pros? Eric: I think there's going to be a move away from Amazon from both a consumer perspective and a seller perspective. I think Amazon is really kind of twisting the screw in a lot of people. There's going to be a little bit of blowback from that. Stephanie: Completely agree, especially with everything going on right now where Amazon's picking what products are essential. I think they just said that they are going to be optimizing for its margins. Instead of showing people, maybe, what they want to find, they're going to be showing people products that have higher margins. I can see that also happening. Eric: They're also neutering a lot of people in the affiliate space where they just literally cut their commissions in half. Stephanie: That's not good. Eric: [crosstalk 00:54:51]. Stephanie: Well, it sounds a good prediction, then. Eric: Yeah. Less people will be pointing links to Amazon, I think. Stephanie: All right. Any final words of advice or wisdom, Eric, that you want to share before we hop off? Eric: The big thing I always like to tell people is, in life you always have doubts and questions about what you need to do. The reality is you need to just go out there, execute, and do it. Action, a lot of times, is better than no action. Just go out there. You know what you need to do. Go and get it done. Stephanie: Yes, do it. All right. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Eric. It was a blast. See you soon. Eric: My pleasure.  

Eric Siegel, Ph.D. is founder of the Predictive Analytics World and Deep Learning World conference series, executive editor of “The Predictive Analytics Times,” and author of “Predictive Analytics: The Power to Predict Who Will Click, Buy, Lie, or Die.” A former Columbia University professor and host of the Dr. Data Show web series, Siegel is a renowned speaker and educator who has been commissioned for more than 100 keynote addresses across multiple industries. Eric is best known for making the “how” and “why” of predictive analytics (aka machine learning) understandable and captivating to his audiences. In our chat, we covered: The value of defining business outcomes and end user’s needs prior to starting the technical work of predictive modeling, algorithms, or software design. The idea of data prototypes being used before engaging in data science to determine where models could potentially fail—saving time while improving your odds of success. The first and most important step of Eric’s five-step analytics deployment plan Getting multiple people aligned and coordinated about pragmatic considerations and practical constraints surrounding ML project deployment. The score (1-10) Eric  gave the data community on its ability to turn data into value The difference between decision support and decision automation and what the Central Intelligence Agency’s CDAO thinks about these two methods for using machine learning. Understanding how human decisions are informed by quantitative predictions from predictive modes, and what’s required to deliver information in a way that aligns with their needs. How Eric likes to bring agility to machine learning by deploying and scaling models incrementally to mitigate risk Where the analytics field currently stands in its overall ability to generate value in the last mile. Resources and Links: Machine Learning Week #experiencingdata PredictiveAnalyticsWorld.com ThePredictionBook.com Dr. Data Show Twitter: @predictanalytic Quotes from Today’s Episode “The greatest pitfall that hinders analytics is not to properly plan for its deployment.” — Brian, quoting Eric “You don’t jump to number crunching. You start [by asking], ‘Hey, how is this thing going to actually improve business?’ “ — Eric “You can do some preliminary number crunching, but don’t greenlight, trigger, and go ahead with the whole machine learning project until you’ve planned accordingly, and iterated. It’s a collaborative effort to design, target, define scope, and ultimately greenlight and execute on a full-scale machine learning project.” — Eric “If you’re listening to this interview, it’s your responsibility.” — Eric, commenting on whose job it is to define the business objective of a project. “Yeah, so in terms of if 10 were the highest potential [score], in the sort of ideal world where it was really being used to its fullest potential, I don’t know, I guess I would give us a score of [listen to find out!]. Is that what Tom [Davenport] gave!?” — Eric, when asked to rate the analytics community on its ability to deliver value with data “We really need to get past our outputs, and the things that we make, the artifacts and those types of software, whatever it may be, and really

PodcastPodcast Ep. 72 Show Nutz Previous Podcast Challenge for Eric: You're Wrong About Podcast Challenge for Lauren: David Tennant Does a Podcast With (Olivia Colman) Clip 1: Couples Therapy, Tag ‘Em and Drag ‘Em Clip 2: a) Good One: A Podcast About Jokes and the people who tell them. (Nicole Byer's Fat Jokes) b)High and Mighty, Women with Erin Whitehead c) Friends Like These...Dr. Tressie Cottom (attractiveness) Segment Stealing: The Indicator, Overrated/Underrated: Nobel Prizes, True Crime Round-Up: The Daily Zeitgeist 3.6.19 Segment Segment BUTTS & BOURBON

Show Nutz: “Would I eat muffins for the rest of my life if it meant I didn't have to go to school?” Previous Podcast Challenge for Eric: Lauren: Teen Creeps Podcast Challenge for Eric: Podcast challenge for Eric: You're Wrong About **THANK YOU 2 OUR SPONSOR COLD TURKEY** Clip 1: How It Is, Home Time: 6:17-7:31 Clip 2: FTFY, Data vs. Hamburgers Time: 14:16-15:33 Memes as Political Allegory: Why Won't You Date Me?, All Things Panties w/ Eliot Glazer Time: 52:40-53:42 Bonus Seggy 2: Super Bowl Summary Time Natch Beaut, Bargain Bin Beauty with Roz Drezfalez Time: 8:35-9:50

Panel: Joe Eames John Papa Eric Dietrich Special Guest: Peter Mbanugo In this episode, the panel talks with Peter Mbanugo who is a software developer, tech writer, and maker of Hamoni Sync. He currently works with Field Intelligence, where he helps build logistic and supply chain apps. He also gets involved in design research and customer support for these products. He's also a contributor to Hoodie and a member of the Offline-First community. You can follow him on Twitter. Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement – Kendo UI 1:12 – Eric: You, Peter, write a really interesting article. How did you come to write that blog? Tell me about yourself. 1:29 – (Peter talks about his blog and his current projects.) 2:18 – Eric: Tell us about the blog! 2:25 – Peter: I talk about real-time synchronization and why you need it for data. You can use the websocket API and other applications. 3:29 – Panel: Let’s take a step back. It could be helpful to know: what problem were you trying to solve with real-time data? 4:14 – Panel: So multiple client browsers? You are editing in one browser and the data is showing up in the other? You mentioned websockets and others – could you talk about WHY you didn’t go with the other ones? 4:45 – (Peter answers the question.) 6:08 – Panel: So you created Hamoni Sync, and when did you start it? 6:20 – Peter: Yes, and I wrote it in March. I used real-time systems. 6:52 – Panel: What does it mean? 6:55 – (Peter answers.) 7:07 – Panel: Looks like it’s reasonably priced, too. 7:33 – Panel: Let me ask you this. How easy is it to get up and running using this on a Vue project?  7:45 – Peter. 8:34 – Panel: You have to install through your dashboard, then... 8:46 – Peter. 8:53 – Panel: You mentioned earlier that you shouldn’t websocket API right now? 9:04 – Peter:  Not all users would have a browser that would support that. 9:39 – Panel: Hamoni handles all of that for you, which is nice. So it has a simple API to use. You started in March – is this your fulltime job...or? 10:08 – Peter: I started a new job 2 months ago, so now it’s part-time. 10:20 – Panel: You can use with any JavaScript library? 10:24 – Peter. 10:31 – Panel: Why did you do a tutorial in Vue and not in Angular or React? 10:37 – Peter: I do have one in React, and then... 10:54 – Panel: How do you like Vue so far? 10:55 – Peter. 11:15- Panel: The simplicity of Vue and you can take an older app and you can switch it over and not worry about jQuery and just go from there. Angular one days and instead of Angular 2+ or 6 now – Vue is an easy upgrade transition for sure. 11:47 – Peter. 11:51 – Panel: Walk us through how an app would work with this? 12:09 – Peter: When you connect you... 12:40 – Panel: What server is the data going to? 12:46 – Peter. 12:51 – Peter: I have a cloud service. 13:00 – Panel: How do they still get performance if there are a lot of people on at the same time? 13:06 – Peter. 13:17 – Panel: It handles all of the scaling? 13:23 – (Panelist walks through the process.) 13:44 – Peter: No scaling issues, yet. 14:05 – Peter: I haven’t launched, yet, through Product Hunt. 14:20 – Peter: The plan is to do that next month or middle of next month? 14:33 – Panel: Maybe once this podcast launches – that’s cool. What other apps can use real-time? Like a chat room is obvious when they are learning with socket IO. Is this beyond Vue? 15:07 – Peter: Yeah, in general it could be used for real-time chat applications and... 15:21 – Panel: Stock market updates? 15:28 – Peter: Yes. No, not animals.  Maybe games for multi-player games. For chat room application. 18:45 – Panel: Demopuppy.com 19:11 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! 20:00 – Peter: Related to the blog we have covered it well. Why you would use real-time and the different ways you can do it with websocket. 20:23 – Panel: You are in Nigeria? 20:24 – Peter: Yes. 20:27 – Panel: How is Vue.js in Nigeria – do you have Meetups? 20:44 – Peter: I think the tech scene is doing quite well. Mainly Angular and others use other frameworks. 22:08 – Panel: Conference and asking for people to contribute? (Yes.) That sounds great for an active community. Getting hard jobs in tech is hard but maybe hard in specific places. 22:39 – Peter: It is great the great one for React b/c of the popularity in React. React or Angular; one of the two. 23:12 – Panel: If you know your stuff you are good to go? 23:19 – Peter: Yes. Microsoft’s .NET is quite stable. 23:37 – Panel: You are starting a startup is that common in Nigeria? 23:49 – Peter: The startup is small actually. 24:37 – Panel: Are you in the capitol? (Yes.) There is a misconception there that people think you have to be in the California or bay area, and you can see that it’s not true. You can create cool things no matter where you are! 25:08 – Peter: It’s great to see the diversity. 25:14 – Panel: I think it’s cool what you are doing. I am glad you wrote an article. What is HospitalRun? 25:42 – Peter: It’s a hospital management system to work offline first. To use them in remote areas where there is no connectivity. 27:08 – Panel: It’s an opensource project – Hospital.io. You are more the maintainer of the frontend right? 28:05 – Peter: Yes. 28:11 – Panel: A lot of hospitals are using this and need contributors and if you want to have a real difference check it out. What do you do as the maintainer are you reviewing code requests? 28:40 – Peter. 28:56 – Panel: Ember.js? 29:00 – Peter: No, I am being dumped into Ember into the deep-end. 29:20 – Panel: I think we are going to go to our picks now? How can 29:30 – Peter: Twitter and email. Check out the show notes! 29:50 – Panel: Picks! 29:58 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue React Angular JavaScript DevChat TV Can I Use Websocket? Demopuppy.com HospitalRun.io What are the best tools for automating social media growth? Peter Mbanugo’s Twitter Peter Mbanugo’s Email: p.mbanugo@yahoo.com Peter’s blogs Vue Mastery Hoodie Meetups Hamoni Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Get A Coder Job! Picks: Joe Dungeon and Dragons recordings coming soon on YouTube Blog - Good Bye Redux John Talk like a pirate day I Can Use Product Hunt Vue Mastery Peter Hoodie Vue Dev Tools Ego is the Enemy Eric Halt and Catch fire Vue.JS in Action

Panel: Joe Eames John Papa Eric Dietrich Special Guest: Peter Mbanugo In this episode, the panel talks with Peter Mbanugo who is a software developer, tech writer, and maker of Hamoni Sync. He currently works with Field Intelligence, where he helps build logistic and supply chain apps. He also gets involved in design research and customer support for these products. He's also a contributor to Hoodie and a member of the Offline-First community. You can follow him on Twitter. Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement – Kendo UI 1:12 – Eric: You, Peter, write a really interesting article. How did you come to write that blog? Tell me about yourself. 1:29 – (Peter talks about his blog and his current projects.) 2:18 – Eric: Tell us about the blog! 2:25 – Peter: I talk about real-time synchronization and why you need it for data. You can use the websocket API and other applications. 3:29 – Panel: Let’s take a step back. It could be helpful to know: what problem were you trying to solve with real-time data? 4:14 – Panel: So multiple client browsers? You are editing in one browser and the data is showing up in the other? You mentioned websockets and others – could you talk about WHY you didn’t go with the other ones? 4:45 – (Peter answers the question.) 6:08 – Panel: So you created Hamoni Sync, and when did you start it? 6:20 – Peter: Yes, and I wrote it in March. I used real-time systems. 6:52 – Panel: What does it mean? 6:55 – (Peter answers.) 7:07 – Panel: Looks like it’s reasonably priced, too. 7:33 – Panel: Let me ask you this. How easy is it to get up and running using this on a Vue project?  7:45 – Peter. 8:34 – Panel: You have to install through your dashboard, then... 8:46 – Peter. 8:53 – Panel: You mentioned earlier that you shouldn’t websocket API right now? 9:04 – Peter:  Not all users would have a browser that would support that. 9:39 – Panel: Hamoni handles all of that for you, which is nice. So it has a simple API to use. You started in March – is this your fulltime job...or? 10:08 – Peter: I started a new job 2 months ago, so now it’s part-time. 10:20 – Panel: You can use with any JavaScript library? 10:24 – Peter. 10:31 – Panel: Why did you do a tutorial in Vue and not in Angular or React? 10:37 – Peter: I do have one in React, and then... 10:54 – Panel: How do you like Vue so far? 10:55 – Peter. 11:15- Panel: The simplicity of Vue and you can take an older app and you can switch it over and not worry about jQuery and just go from there. Angular one days and instead of Angular 2+ or 6 now – Vue is an easy upgrade transition for sure. 11:47 – Peter. 11:51 – Panel: Walk us through how an app would work with this? 12:09 – Peter: When you connect you... 12:40 – Panel: What server is the data going to? 12:46 – Peter. 12:51 – Peter: I have a cloud service. 13:00 – Panel: How do they still get performance if there are a lot of people on at the same time? 13:06 – Peter. 13:17 – Panel: It handles all of the scaling? 13:23 – (Panelist walks through the process.) 13:44 – Peter: No scaling issues, yet. 14:05 – Peter: I haven’t launched, yet, through Product Hunt. 14:20 – Peter: The plan is to do that next month or middle of next month? 14:33 – Panel: Maybe once this podcast launches – that’s cool. What other apps can use real-time? Like a chat room is obvious when they are learning with socket IO. Is this beyond Vue? 15:07 – Peter: Yeah, in general it could be used for real-time chat applications and... 15:21 – Panel: Stock market updates? 15:28 – Peter: Yes. No, not animals.  Maybe games for multi-player games. For chat room application. 18:45 – Panel: Demopuppy.com 19:11 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! 20:00 – Peter: Related to the blog we have covered it well. Why you would use real-time and the different ways you can do it with websocket. 20:23 – Panel: You are in Nigeria? 20:24 – Peter: Yes. 20:27 – Panel: How is Vue.js in Nigeria – do you have Meetups? 20:44 – Peter: I think the tech scene is doing quite well. Mainly Angular and others use other frameworks. 22:08 – Panel: Conference and asking for people to contribute? (Yes.) That sounds great for an active community. Getting hard jobs in tech is hard but maybe hard in specific places. 22:39 – Peter: It is great the great one for React b/c of the popularity in React. React or Angular; one of the two. 23:12 – Panel: If you know your stuff you are good to go? 23:19 – Peter: Yes. Microsoft’s .NET is quite stable. 23:37 – Panel: You are starting a startup is that common in Nigeria? 23:49 – Peter: The startup is small actually. 24:37 – Panel: Are you in the capitol? (Yes.) There is a misconception there that people think you have to be in the California or bay area, and you can see that it’s not true. You can create cool things no matter where you are! 25:08 – Peter: It’s great to see the diversity. 25:14 – Panel: I think it’s cool what you are doing. I am glad you wrote an article. What is HospitalRun? 25:42 – Peter: It’s a hospital management system to work offline first. To use them in remote areas where there is no connectivity. 27:08 – Panel: It’s an opensource project – Hospital.io. You are more the maintainer of the frontend right? 28:05 – Peter: Yes. 28:11 – Panel: A lot of hospitals are using this and need contributors and if you want to have a real difference check it out. What do you do as the maintainer are you reviewing code requests? 28:40 – Peter. 28:56 – Panel: Ember.js? 29:00 – Peter: No, I am being dumped into Ember into the deep-end. 29:20 – Panel: I think we are going to go to our picks now? How can 29:30 – Peter: Twitter and email. Check out the show notes! 29:50 – Panel: Picks! 29:58 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue React Angular JavaScript DevChat TV Can I Use Websocket? Demopuppy.com HospitalRun.io What are the best tools for automating social media growth? Peter Mbanugo’s Twitter Peter Mbanugo’s Email: p.mbanugo@yahoo.com Peter’s blogs Vue Mastery Hoodie Meetups Hamoni Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Get A Coder Job! Picks: Joe Dungeon and Dragons recordings coming soon on YouTube Blog - Good Bye Redux John Talk like a pirate day I Can Use Product Hunt Vue Mastery Peter Hoodie Vue Dev Tools Ego is the Enemy Eric Halt and Catch fire Vue.JS in Action

Eric’s fascination with Chinese medicine started over 30 years ago, when he ventured to China to teach English. His passion eventually translated into an unusual career in what he calls “academic medicine.” Before earning a Ph.D. in anthropology from the University of North Carolina (2005), Eric spent five years earning a Bachelor’s of Medicine from the renowned Beijing University of Chinese Medicine (from 1995 – 2000), and attended Princeton for his undergraduate studies. Through his research, Eric has had the opportunity to both train with and interview leading doctors of Chinese medicine across China, and he is currently a professor of anthropology at Appalachian State University. In today’s episode we talk about the application of Chinese medicine on Menstrual cycle issues. This episode is brought to you by my 10 Week Fertility Awareness Mastery Program. The next session begins in April 2018. Click here to apply The Fertility Friday Podcast is supported by the Women’s Monthly Kit by DAO labs Head over to mydaolabs.com and use the code FERTILITY to receive 20% off your first purchase. Don’t forget to sign up for my FREE FAM 101 video series. Click here for access. Topics discussed in today's episode: How does Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) differ from Western Medicine? How do the TCM concepts of hot and cold, and deficiency and excess relate to the menstrual cycle? The benefits of eating a balance of raw and cooked food The relationship between leftovers and digestive issues The application of Chinese Medicine for common menstrual cycle issues What is Chi and how does it relate to the menstrual cycle? The impact of hormonal birth control and ovarian health When should you seek professional support? Herbal medicine for the menstrual cycle Connect with Eric: You can connect with Eric on his Website, on Facebook, and on Twitter. Resources mentioned: Ovarian reserve assessment in users of oral contraception seeking fertility advice on their reproductive lifespan | PubMed Women's Monthly Kit | DAO Labs 10 Week Fertility Awareness Mastery Group Program Fertility Awareness 101 FREE Video Series Fertility Friday Facebook Group Related podcasts & blog posts: FFP 096 | Deconstructing Your Infertility Diagnosis | Poor Ovarian Reserve | Practical Ways of Managing Stress | Traditional Chinese Medicine | Mary Wong FFP 062 | Acupuncture for Fertility and Menstrual Cycle Health | Jani White FFP 041 | Thyroid Health and Fertility | Dr. Maureen Rozenn Join the community! Find us in the Fertility Friday Facebook Group Subscribe to the Fertility Friday Podcast in Apple Podcasts! Music Credit: Intro/Outro music Produced by J-Gantic A Special Thank You to Our Show Sponsors: DAO Labs | Women's Monthly Kit This episode is sponsored by the Women's Monthly Kit by DAO Labs. Herbal medicine is an integral part of Chinese medicine. Herbs have been used for centuries for a variety of treatments and needs and remain incredibly popular today. DAO Labs is on a path to making Chinese herbal medicine more approachable, convenient and tasty. Revitalize and harmonize your cycle with two ancient herbal formulas with a modern twist. Click here for more information. Fertility Friday | 10 Week Fertility Awareness Mastery Group Program This episode is sponsored by my 10 Week Fertility Awareness Mastery Group Program! Master Fertility Awareness and take a deep dive into your cycles and how they relate to your overall health! Click here for more information!

Join QuantumDigital’s CMO Eric Cosway as he interviews Alex Bruno, owner of RE/MAX 5-Star Realty in Florida. Alex is a top producer who also works with banks, including Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Alex is HUD-certified, and has a strong network of home buyers and investors.   Eric: Alex, welcome to the podcast.   Alex: Hello. How are you doing?   Eric: So, it sounds like RE/MAX 5-Star has been around since 2016. What led you to want to start the business, or create a franchise for yourself?   Alex: Actually, over the years, I thought it was important based on the experience that I got in real estate. I wanted to have an office with a little bit of a different perspective, and being a buyer’s and listing agent for many years, I understand how difficult it is to be an agent. I wanted to facilitate the tools and the support for the agents the way that I would like to have it myself. I wanted to be able to answer their questions, and at the same time provide the tools that they need. I didn’t want to be the office that was open for 30-40 years. Things change over the years. The real estate market changed. The real estate agent’s needs changed. The buyers changed. Everything is completely different. And more and more the market keeps changing every year. We need to make adjustments constantly.   Eric: Is your primary focus on buyers in Hollywood, Florida? Or do you do both buyers and sellers?   Alex: I work with buyers and sellers, and I work on South Florida, not just only on Hollywood. From Miami Beach to Pompano Beach, we are open to working with different cities.   Eric: Was that area impacted by the hurricane this past summer? Last couple of months?   Alex: Absolutely. Yes. And we’re still seeing the damages around.   Eric: How did that impact you? You’re right there in the center of it. You have a staff. Not only were you affected, but I’m sure the business was impacted as well.   Alex: First of all, it’s something that is out of our control. We need to take it the way it is, and try to make the best of it. So, we need to just continue life because it was definitely a huge impact for real estate, and also properties they were supposed to close. They have to be re-inspected again, and appraised again. Some of the sales fall apart, but we need to continue. When the market crashed in 2007, life continued. And you have to keep going. And there were always buyers. We were a little spoiled, some of the agent. Deals were so easy, then they were no longer that easy. We need to work harder. But everything is possible, and we need to adapt to the times.   Eric: You came into the real estate business in 2007. How was that first year for you as a Realtor?   Alex: It was a little sad. A lot of people were very depressed. It was like the end of the world. It was a commotion—many people taking time off, going away. Other ones struggling to figure out how to react to these major changes. And I personally think it was easier for me because I was not that spoiled. I was new. So, I figured out there are always buyers. People are going to keep buying homes and selling homes. This is not the end of the world. Maybe the end of a good market, but there were always FHA buyers. Much better buyers than before. Real buyers that can afford these houses. Because, after the market crashed, lenders were more conscious about the capability of a buyer to purchase a home. You keep going, and you have to adapt to the situation.   Eric: Is there something specific about a buyer that you’ve learned—the one or two things a buyer always needs that you just know what to do, and just handle a buyer so they’re fully happy and satisfied with all the work you do?   Alex: One of the most important is to listen to them, and try to build in your mind and try to understand what the needs are for they buyer. Try to put time into that buyer to show them that you want to work with them. Because it’s a very competitive market. Here in Florida, a lot of people have real estate licenses. So, everybody knows a friend, or a neighbor, or a coworker that has a real estate license. But, not everyone is dedicated to this career. A lot of people think it’s easy, but it’s not that easy. What you need to do is just listen to the buyer, and try to work on what they are asking. And be available. That is one of the most important things; build a criteria for the buyer, and try to work on finding what they are looking for.   Eric: I read your customer reviews, and I have to tell you, they’re excellent. Here are the common terms when people talked about you. They said you were responsive. Always calls back. Knowledgeable. Trustworthy. Honest. Knows the area extremely well. Is available 24/7. So, does that surprise you, or is that just who you are—your DNA?   Alex: It’s who I try to be all the time for my clients. I think it’s important for all these points to be met—to have a happy client, and to eventually get more referrals and more business. To be dedicated for this job.   Eric: Tell me about the dedication in this job. You have a team of 8 people, is that correct?   Alex: Approximately, yes. With the photographers, yeah.   Eric: Are you active 7 days a week being a team lead, or can you now delegate some of those responsibilities off?   Alex: I delegate, but as a team leader you have to keep pushing to make sure that you keep the standards.   Eric: WHen it’s really tough, what do you tell your team? How do you motivate your team to keep moving?   Alex: There are many sources, and some of the sources we learn from the old school. You have to go back to what used to work before, in order to add what works now. In order to get buyer’s and seller’s business—even in the tough times—you have to do a hundred things. It’s not like one thing is going to give you the business. If you have multiple options, most likely you’re going to have better results. Prospectings, For Sale By Owners, campaigns, expired campaigns… those are the old school. Open Houses—a lot of people don’t believe in open houses. Some people don’t believe in broker’s Open Houses. You have to try everything. And believe me you have more chances, you’re going to succeed with better results.   Eric: Sounds like technology has impacted your business. Has it made things easier for you? Has it given better exposure to your buyers and sellers? How do you leverage technology as a broker?   Alex: Technology makes smarter buyers. The buyers know how to look. And it makes it more risky for the agents, because you get a chance of losing a buyer going directly with a listing agent, or going a different route with another agent. The information is more available. You just Google the address, and you can get all the information regarding that property. It definitely helps us also to be able to locate a property the buyer is asking for immediately through our phones. But at the same time, we need to keep the quality of the work going, to keep that buyer, being more proactive about finding what they’re looking for. Because they buyer will be looking for those properties, too. So, you’re working with a buyer… a smarter buyer.   Eric: Now that there’s so much content available to buyers to be smart buyers, has that forced your game and your agents games up to be even more on top of the market than you might normally be?   Alex: I don’t think so. It’s just that we need to adapt to the changes and grow with the changes.   Eric: Are you a team that adopts new technology? Or are you a tad more service, belly-to-belly, a little more old fashioned in the way you approach your buyers and sellers?   Alex: It’s a bunch of things together, and we have to keep moving forward with technology, and adopting new trends, new programs, new marketing—different types of marketing that probably didn’t exist 10 years ago—and try to be creative for your business. That way, you can stand in the market as an agent.   Eric: You mentioned your referrals. Is that mainly how you drive business today?   Alex: Referrals are very important. And also, if you work for an international company, your exposure is even more. But referrals is one of the things that really helps your business. It’s on the top of the list, definitely.   Eric: There are obviously some benefits being a franchise, but in your market what are the big 2 or 3 benefits of having that RE/MAX brand behind you?   Alex: When I was exploring the possibility of buying a franchise, I met with multiple companies. And the RE/MAX platform was clean and easy for the agent. And at the same time—one of the most important things for me, especially referrals—is seeing how big it is. In 100 countries, plus. And have 110,000 agents around the world. That makes you feel safe. It’s a company that keeps growing, that gives you the tools to be successful. And that is exactly what I was looking for. I was not looking about quantity of agents per square feet. Everybody has different perspectives of somebody who opens a franchise. I think that those were very important points to make a decision to continue being part of RE/MAX.   Eric: Let’s change course a little bit. You have a background in interior design. You’re from Uruguay. Tell us about how interior design informs you, or helps you in your career in real estate.   Alex: I didn’t finish the career on interior design, so I didn’t get a license for it. But, it definitely helped me to help sellers, or give them advice on how to present the home to be sold faster, for more money. Seeing, from a different perspective, the home from the buyer’s side, and being able to tell just the sellers what they should do to accomplish that.   Eric: It sounds like a really complementary skill to what you’re doing day to day.   Alex: Honestly, I love my job. And I definitely put my heart on every transaction. It doesn’t matter how much the sales price is. Every transaction means a lot for me. The important thing is to make it happen, and have a good presentation, a good description of the property. You need to put a little bit of your heart on every property that you list. Going the extra mile for the client.   Eric: Well, you’re definitely passionate about your career. What would be the other things you’re passionate about?   Alex: My family, honestly. It’s the most important thing in my life. And also my country—even though I was born in Uruguay—I have the American dream, and I love this country. I’m proud of being an American citizen. And my career.   Eric: Alex, what a pleasure speaking with you today. I know being a team lead, and being a broker with all the responsibilities, your time is very limited so it’s precious. I want to to thank you for your time. I hope you found it informative. We certainly did.   Alex: Absolutely. And I want to help other agents who don’t see the light sometimes of this business. And a lot of people who feel limited, because maybe they are foreign people, or they feel different… this is a job where you can can shine. And not because you’re pretty, or you drive a nice car. You can shine for talent.   Eric: Congratulations! You’ve done a very nice job. Alex: Thank you!

Man vs Lamp Double Feature. Eric: You feel that? There’s some spook in here. Feels like some spook in here Michael: A little bit yeah, little chilly. Little ghostly chill. Eric: Yeah. Some Ghost Cold. I feel that. I know … Continue reading →

Episode Summary: This week on the FadCast, we discuss films based on true stories going through the film facts versus fiction. We kick things off with a script read from "Goodfellas" transitioning into a discussion on the film's factual basis. Ryan and Eric go through a variety of other films as well in multiple genres. Before that, we briefly discuss The Passing of the Great Mary Tyler Moore and a Marvel and Square Enix Team Up For Video Gamesfor our SPEED ROUND! How did you like the show? Which is YOUR favorite episode to date? We want to know YOUR opinion, so tell us in the comment section below. Episode Breakdown: Eric: You are listening to FilmFad.com’s FadCast Episode 126 Ryan: With our special celebrity guest, silent speaker, JD the Mime Eric: Today we’ll explore film adaptation true stories Ryan: as we put fact against fiction against some well known films Eric: You’ll hear all that and more so let’s get started… (Intro Music break) Current Events - The Passing of the Great Mary Tyler Moore and Marvel and Square Enix Team Up For Video Games (3min) Script Read - "Goodfellas" ft. Eric as Tommy and Ryan as multiple roles and the Narrator. (4min) Main Topic - Film Fact vs Fiction ft. JD the Mime (34min) Do YOU want to be featured on an episode of the FadCast?! Well then, call the FadCast hotline at (310) 651-8127 and leave us a voicemail to possibly be featured on an upcoming episode! Awesome, right?! We know!!!

### Summary: In Episode #226 Ari and Nick welcome [Eric Paskin](https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-paskin-380873a), an accomplished entrepreneur and family man to the Less Doing Podcast. Eric started in the addiction recovery industry doing marketing, and he now owns Restore Health and Wellness Center in L.A. Listen as Ari and Eric discuss Eric's treatment center, his own journey with addiction, and his experience working with people who want to combat their addiction to substances. ### Time Stamped Show Notes: - 08:00 – Introduction of Eric Paskin - 08:10 – He started as an employee at a treatment center and later started his own consulting business, and finally a treatment center. - 08:50 – An effective recovery program - 09:30 – Eric's center is evidence based - 10:00 – Eric: “You have to change the way you think and the way you feel.” - 11:15 – Alcoholics Anonymous, a support group, is not the same as treatment - 12:35 – Eric: “Recovery is a personal journey.” - 13:05 – Eric also works in intervention - 13:40 – He doesn't look it at a sales technique, but an opportunity for better health. - 14:40 – Create an environment that is desirable for addicts to heal people. - 15:30 – It's important to catch people in the window of opportunity and get them to the center right away. - 16:35 – Although it's difficult to see people in the throes of addiction, Eric finds his work extremely rewarding. - 18:35 – Relapses can't be predicted. - 19:15 – Eric talks about his own relapses with alcohol - 20:30 – The family is an important part of the healing process. The patient and family need each other. - 21:55 – Intervention as seen on TV is one specific model, but for Eric his model has been better and less confrontational - 23:00 – Eric's model is less of a surprise, and the person is not as defensive. - 24:20 – Eric believes the more time you spend in treatment, the greater chance you have to remain abstinent. - 25:50 – He recommends that minimum treatment is 90 days - 26:30 – “It's always a revolutionary process.” –Eric Paskin - 27:45 – Eric sees a lot of drug and alcohol abuse - 28:10 – Many people are Opium dependent - 31:00 – Ari discusses a show on Amazon and its representation of addiction - 33:45 – A positive support system's role in addiction - 36:30 – Eric has been sober for nine years, as a result of long-term recovery and consequential thinking - 38:45 – Even though every person is different, Eric believes addicts who successfully defeat addiction genuinely do not want to relapse. - 39:45 – It took Eric three years to feel that way. - 40:50 – The relationship between addiction and the need for instant gratification - 42:00 – Too often patients don't stay in treatment long enough to see improvement - 42:45 – Discussing the measured reintroduction of drugs and alcohol POST-recovery - 44:30 – “The more open you can be about it, the better you can protect yourself from a relapse.” –Eric Paskin - 45:00 – Eric can manage his work and his family with different strategies - 45:35 – Prioritizing what's important - 46:40 – Delegating professional responsibility - 48:40 – _Top 3 Tips to be More Effective:_ - Identify what you want in life and what you hope to achieve - Identify what you're not good at - Enjoy your life - 51:15 – [restorecenterla.com](http://www.restorecenterla.com) is one resource for addiction, or call 888-519-1570 ### Resources Mentioned: - [Upcall](https://www.upcall.com/en/pricing): An affordable source to implement a calling campaign - [Readyman](http://readymanstore.com/products/readyman-e-v-a-c): Completely flat survival tools - [How Much Per Day?](http://www.techinsider.io/exercise-to-get-results-2016-7): A guide for a minimum amount of exercise to be healthy - [Workshop.lessdoing.com](http://www.Workshop.lessdoing.com) : Preview of a video by Ari and Nick on outsourcing - Text DOLESS to 33733 to sign up for the Less Doing Newsletter ### Credits - --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/lessdoing/message

Join hosts Scott H. Gardner, Dr. Bill Robinson, and Todd "Mr. Voice" Grady for a (mostly) spoiler-free -- let's call it "spoiler-lite" -- special advance preview review of Marvel's "Guardians of the Galaxy"!! They've seen it, you haven't, they need to brag, you wanna hear it!! Special Guest-Appearance by Eric "**** You, Eric Peterson" Peterson!! Feedback for this show can be sent to: twotruefreaks@gmail.comTwo True Freaks! is a proud member of BOTH the Comics Podcast Network (http://www.comicspodcasts.com/) and the League of Comic Book Podcasts (http://www.comicbooknoise.com/league/)!! Follow the fun on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/groups/113051642052970/ THANK YOU for listening to Two True Freaks!!

Join hosts Scott H. Gardner, Dr. Bill Robinson, and Todd "Mr. Voice" Grady for a (mostly) spoiler-free -- let's call it "spoiler-lite" -- special advance preview review of Marvel's "Guardians of the Galaxy"!! They've seen it, you haven't, they need to brag, you wanna hear it!! Special Guest-Appearance by Eric "**** You, Eric Peterson" Peterson!! Feedback for this show can be sent to: twotruefreaks@gmail.comTwo True Freaks! is a proud member of BOTH the Comics Podcast Network (http://www.comicspodcasts.com/) and the League of Comic Book Podcasts (http://www.comicbooknoise.com/league/)!! Follow the fun on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/groups/113051642052970/ THANK YOU for listening to Two True Freaks!!

asset title: Episode 14: The Holiday Special filename: ra_14.mp3 track number: 14/22 time: 13:14 size: 10.85 MB bitrate: 112 kbps In Episode 14, The Radio Arlecchino Holiday Special, Eric has been invited to join our commedia friends as they celebrate the season backstage before opening a new show. As they share reminiscences of holidays past --and really past-- we'll review the grammar points we've encountered so far: narrating in the past, expressing emotions and opinions, issuing commands, and using pronouns. Of course the big question is: will Antonella make it back from Rome in time for the holidays? Only one way to find out ... let's listen!Dialog: ItalianPanettone GnammagnaDottore: Ecco il vostro vecchio amico, il Dottor Balanzone, che vi ricorda che le feste sono sempre migliori quando c'è il delizioso panettone Gnammagna! È vero... Festeggiate gustando la delizia dell'incomparabile panettone Gnammagna!Dialog: EnglishDottore: Here's your old friend Dottor Balanzone, reminding you that the holidays are always better when there's delicious Gnammagna panettone! It's true ... Celebrate while enjoying the incomparable delight of Gnammagna panettone!--I'm sorry, guys, I won't explain even one of them to you. Nobody will ever be able to explain them to you.Dialog: ItalianAt the Teatro BisognosiArlecchino: Chi è che bussa? Chi è? È Babbo Natale?Eric: No, no, Sono io!Arlecchino: Ah, sei tu! E tu chi sei? La Befana?Eric: Macché Befana! Sono io! Eric!Arlecchino: Eric! E perché non lo hai detto subito?Attenti, ragazzi! Ecco il nostro presentatore radiofonico!Colombina: Eric, come stai?Eric: Bene, bene, grazie, Colombina! Ma che bel costume!Colombina: Grazie, l'ho fatto apposta per il nuovo spettacolo ...Arlecchino: Su, dammi il cappotto, vieni qui vicino al fuoco ...Eric: Ecco, grazie ...Pantalone: È un piacere rivederti! Arlecchino, portagli qualcosa da bere!Arlecchino: Subito, signore!Dottore: Gaudeamus igitur, insieme dum sumus!Eric: Grazie, Dottore, è un piacere rivederLa!Dottore: Sed -- ubi est?Eric: Vorrà dire, Dottore, dov'è ...Dottore: Ubi est pulcherrima puella Antonella? Colombina: Già, Antonella! Non è venuta con te?Pantalone: Dov'è la nostra Antonella?Eric: Ma non è ancora tornata da Roma!Dialog: EnglishArlecchino: Who's knocking? Who is it? Is it Father Christmas?Eric: No, no, it's me! It's me!Arlecchino: Ah, it's you! And who are you? The Befana?Eric: What do you mean, the Befana! It's me! Eric!Arlecchino: Eric! And why didn't you say so right away?Attention, guys! Here's our radio announcer!Colombina: Eric, how are you?Eric: Fine, fine, thanks, Colombina! What a beautiful costume!Colombina: Thanks, I made it especially for the new play ...Arlecchino: Here, give me your coat, come here near the fire ...Eric: Here, thanks ...Pantalone: It's a pleasure to see you again! Arlecchino, bring him something to drink!Arlecchino: Right away, sir!Dottore: Gaudeamus igitur, insieme dum sumus!Eric: Thank you, Dottore. It's good to see you again!Dottore: Sed -- ubi est?Eric: You mean to say, Dottore, where is ...Dottore: Ubi est pulcherrima puella Antonella? Colombina: That's right, Antonella! Didn't she come with you?Pantalone: Where is our Antonella?Eric: But she hasn't come back from Rome!Dialog: ItalianA Visit from the PostmanArlecchino: Chi è che bussa? Chi è? È Babbo Natale?il Postino: No, no, sono io! Aprite!Arlecchino: Ah, sei tu! E tu chi sei? La Befana?il Postino: Macché Befana! Sono io, il postino! Arlecchino: Ah, sei tu! E perché non lo hai detto subito? Allora c'è posta per noi?il Postino: Ehi, apri, e lo saprai!Pantalone: Apri, apri, Arlecchino!il Postino: Buona sera, buona sera, brava gente! Ecco la posta!Colombina: Oh, che sacco enorme!Dottore: Pereat tristitia! Pantalone: Grazie, signor Postino! Arlecchino, prendi quel sacco!Arlecchino: Mamma mia, quanto pesa! Vediamo cosa c'è dentro!Colombina: Cosa c'è, Arlecchino?Arlecchino: Oh, guarda, quanti biglietti!Colombina: Ce ne sono tanti!Dottore: Vivant biglietti!Pantalone: Grazie, signor Postino! Non possiamo offrirLe -- ma dov'è andato?il Postino: Eccomi qua, signore! C'è anche questo pacco!Brava gente, devo scappare. Tanti altri biglietti e pacchi da consegnare. Buone feste! Buono spettacolo!Dialog: EnglishArlecchino: Who's knocking? Who is it? Is it Father Christmas?il Postino: No, no, it's me! Open up!Arlecchino: Ah, it's you! And who are you? The Befana?il Postino: What do you mean, the Befana! It's me, the postman! Arlecchino: Ah, it's you! And why didn't you say so right away? So, there's mail for us?il Postino: Hey, open up and you'll find out!Pantalone: Open up, open up, Arlecchino!il Postino: Good evening, good evening, fine people! Here's the mail!Colombina: Oh, what an enormous sack!Dottore: Pereat tristitia! Pantalone: Thank you, Mister Postman! Arlecchino, get that sack!Arlecchino: Zounds, how heavy it is! Let's see what's inside!Colombina: What is it, Arlecchino?Arlecchino: Oh, look at all the cards!Colombina: There's so many of them!Dottore: Vivant biglietti!Pantalone: Thank you, Mister Postman! Can't we offer you -- but where has he gone?il Postino: Here I am, sir! There's this parcel as well!Fine people, I must be off. Plenty of other cards and parcels to deliver. Happy Holidays! and a Good Show!Dialog: ItalianA Happy SurprisePantalone: Questo pacco mi preoccupa un po'... Non ho ordinato niente. Colombina?Colombina: Io no, signor Pantalone.Pantalone: Dottore?Dottore: Misterius magnus mihi quantus tibi ...Pantalone: Oh, per carità ... Arlecchino?Arlecchino: Chi è che bussa? Chi è? È Babbo Natale?Ah, sei tu! E tu chi sei? La Befana?Antonella: Macché Befana! Sono io, Antonella!Arlecchino: Antonella! E perché non lo hai detto subito?Eric: Antonella, ciao! Come stai?Antonella: A dire il vero, questo non è il mio modo preferito di viaggiare .... Aiutatemi! Grazie, amici ...Eric: Ma, Antonella, come mai ...?Antonella: Ero tornata nello studio, lì mi hanno detto che eri qui ... Oh, i giri che ho fatto ...Dottore: Mirabile dictu!Pantalone: Venga, professoressa, a tavola con noi ... Brindiamo al ritorno di Antonella! Arlecchino!Arlecchino: Sì, signore!Colombina: Ecco i bicchieri!Pantalone: Arlecchina, aiuta Arlecchino con le bottiglie, spumante per tutti!Arlecchina: Sì, signor Pantalone! Arlecchino, vieni, ti do una mano ...Pantalone: Ecco, professoressa, si accomodi ...Antonella: Grazie, molto gentile... ma... mi dia per favore del tu ....Pantalone: Come no ... ecco un bicchiere per -- per te ....Arlecchina: Colombina, questo è per il Dottore...Colombina: Ecco a Lei, Dottore ...Dottore: In vino jubileus!Colombina: Eric,Eric: Grazie, Colombina!Arlecchina: Per il signor Pantalone ...Pantalone: E ora, cari amici e colleghi, brindiamo al gioioso ritorno della nostra cara amica---Antonella: Ma scusate un momento ... a proposito di cari amici ... il nostro Pulcinella--dov'è?Pantalone: Non ti preoccupare ...Colombina: Pulcinella c'è --Arlecchino: Eccome!Colombina: Il nostro spettacolo stasera comincia con una sua canzone ...Arlecchina: Non smette di fare pratica ...Arlecchino: E' un po' nervoso ....Colombina: Ma lo vedrai nello spettacolo, e senz'altro anche dopo ...Antonella: Meno male! Pantalone: Come dicevo ... ad Antonella!Everybody: Ad Antonella!Pantalone: Bentornata sia! E che non ci lasci mai più per così tanto tempo!Everybody: Cin cin!Dialog: EnglishPantalone: This package worries me a bit ... I never ordered anything. Colombina?Colombina: Not I, Mister Pantalone.Pantalone: Dottore?Dottore: Misterius magnus mihi quantus tibi ...Pantalone: Oh, for heaven's sake ... Arlecchino?Arlecchino: Who's knocking? Who is it? Is it Father Christmas?Ah, it's you! And who are you? The Befana?Antonella: What do you mean, the Befana! It's me, Antonella!Arlecchino: Antonella! And why didn't you say so right away?Eric: Antonella, hi! How are you?Antonella: To tell the truth, this is not my favorite way to travel .... Help me!Thank you, friends ...Eric: But, Antonella, how on earth ...?Antonella: I had gone back to the studio; there they told me that you were here ... Oh, the circles I've been in ...Dottore: Mirabile dictu!Pantalone: Come, professor, to the table with us .... Let's drink to Antonella's return! Arlecchino!Arlecchino: Yes, sir!Colombina: Here are the glasses!Pantalone: Arlecchina, help Arlecchino with the bottles, sparkling wine for everybody!Arlecchina: Yes, Mister Pantalone! Arlecchino, come, I'll give you a hand ...Pantalone: Here you are, professor, make yourself comfortable ...Antonella: Thank you, you're very kind ... but please, address me as 'tu' ....Pantalone: Why of course ... here's a glass for -- for you ...Arlecchina: Colombina, this is for the Dottore ...Colombina: Here you are, Dottore ...Dottore: In vino jubileus!Colombina: Eric,Eric: Thanks, Colombina!Arlecchina: for Mister Pantalone ...Pantalone: And now, dear friends and colleagues, a toast to the joyous return of our dear friend--Antonella: One moment, please... speaking of dear friends ... our Pulcinella--where is he?Pantalone: Not to worry ...Colombina: Pulcinella is here --Arlecchino: And how!Colombina: Our show tonight opens with a song of his ...Arlecchina: He won't quit practicing ...Arlecchino: He's a bit nervous ....Colombina: But you'll see him in the show, and certainly afterwards as well ...Antonella: That's good! Pantalone: As I was saying ... to Antonella!Everybody: To Antonella!Pantalone: Welcome back! And may she never leave us again for so long!Everybody: Cheers!Dialog: ItalianThe BefanaAntonella: Grazie, grazie! Ma cosa sono questi?Arlecchino: Oh, i nostri biglietti!Colombina: Ce li ha portati il postino, con il tuo pacco!Dottore: Ecce bigliettus tibi, Colombina!Colombina: Grazie, Dottore! Guarda! Qui ce n'è uno per te, Arlecchino!Arlecchina: Da chi è?Arlecchino: Vediamo ... oh! è da mio cugino Carlos ... quello che mi ha spiegato chi è la Befana ... 'Caro Arlecchino,' mi scrive ... 'ricordi come una volta volevi sapere tutto sulla Befana? e io ti raccontavo ...Carlos: Mentre i tre Re Magi andavano a Betlemme per portare i doni a Gesù Bambino, hanno visto una vecchia e hanno insistito che li seguisse per far visita al piccolo Gesù, ma la donna non ha voluto. Poco dopo, tuttavia, la vecchietta ha cambiato idea e, dopo aver preparato dei dolci per il bambino, ha cercato di raggiungere i Re Magi, ma loro erano già lontani e non ha potuto raggiungerli. Così, ancora oggi, la notte prima dell'Epifania (il 6 gennaio), la vecchietta, che si chiama la Befana, porta dei regali a tutti i bambini buoni nella speranza che uno di loro sia il Bambin Gesù. Quella notte tutti i bambini italiani vanno a dormire aspettando i regali della Befana che arriva volando su una scopa. Ma i regali arrivano solo ai bambini buoni, a quelli cattivi la Befana porta il carbone.Arlecchino: Come mi manca il mio bravo cuginoDialog: EnglishAntonella: Thank you, thank you! But what are these?Arlecchino: Oh, our cards!Colombina: The postman brought them to us, along with your package!Dottore: Ecce bigliettus tibi, Colombina!Colombina: Thank you, Dottore! Look! Here's one for you, Arlecchino!Arlecchina: Who is it from?Arlecchino: Let's see ... oh! it's from my cousin Carlos, the one who explained to me who the Befana is ... 'Dear Arlecchino' he writes ... 'do you remember how at one time you wanted to know everything about the Befana? and I told you ...Carlos: As the three kings were going to Bethlehem to take their gifts to the child Jesus, they saw an old woman and urged her to follow them to visit little Jesus, but the woman refused. Shortly thereafter, however, the little old lady changed her mind, and after preparing some sweets for the child, she tried to reach the three wise men, but they were already far away and she was unable to catch up with them. So, even today, on the night before Epiphany (the 6 January), the little old lady, called the Befana, takes gifts to all good children in the hope that one of them will be the little Jesus. On that night all Italian children go to sleep awaiting the gifts of the Befana, who arrives flying on a broomstick. But gifts come only to the good children; to the bad ones the Befana brings coal.Arlecchino: How I miss my good cousin!Dialog: ItalianThe Santa Lucia Christmas Market in BolognaPantalone: Ragazzi! Ecco un biglietto da Irene!Dottore: Irene, la mia concittadina!Pantalone: Proprio lei, Dottore! 'Caro Pantalone e Compagnia,' ci scrive, 'ricordate quel Natale che avete trascorso qui? Pulcinella andava sempre in cerca di dolci!'Irene: Santa Lucia è il mercatino di Natale dove tutti gli anni i miei genitori mi portavano a comprare qualcosa per il presepio e un pezzo di torrone o di croccante. Faceva freddo, ma passeggiavamo lentamente in mezzo a tanta gente e tutto brillava e profumava. Mi piacevano tanto le figurine per il presepio, soprattutto quelle che si muovevano, e sceglierne solo una da portare a casa era difficilissimo. Ho continuato ad andare a Santa Lucia anche da adulta; è sempre bellissimo, ma c'è un mistero: più io diventavo adulta, più il mercato diventava piccolo ... adesso sembra grandissimo solo alle mie bambine!Pantalone: Ah, quelle bambine oramai non saranno più tanto piccole neanche loro!Dottore: le mie figliocce ...Arlecchina: oh, non pianga, Dottore -- ecco un biglietto per Lei!Dialog: EnglishPantalone: Fellows! Here is a card from Irene!Dottore: Irene, my countrywoman!Pantalone: The very one, Dottore! 'Dear Pantalone and Company,' she writes, 'remember the Christmas that you spent here? Pulcinella was always off looking for sweets!'Irene: Santa Lucia is Bologna's Christmas market where my parents took me every year to buy something for the Nativity scene and a piece of nougat candy or hazelnut brittle. It was cold, but we would stroll slowly among all those people and everything was bright and smelled good. I loved the Nativity figures, especially the ones that moved, and to pick only one of them to take home was very hard. I kept going to Santa Lucia even as an adult; it's still quite beautiful, but there's one mystery: the older I've become, the smaller the market has gotten ... now it seems enormous only to my little girls!Pantalone: Ah, not even those little girls will be so very little by now!Dottore: My god-daughters ...Arlecchina: Oh, don't cry, Dottore -- here's a card for you!Dialog: ItalianLucky New Year TreatsDottore: Sì? Oh! Non creditur!Colombina: Da chi è, Dottore?Dottore: Una mia ex-studentessa! Sheilah! Quanto le piacevano le feste di Capodanno ... Sentite:Sheilah: Mi ricordo bene un Capodanno con una famiglia del Piemonte ...Per pranzo abbiamo mangiato lo zampone con lenticchie che la mamma aveva cucinato tutta la mattina (le lenticchie portano fortuna) e tante verdure fritte con una pastella leggerissima; per dolce, naturalmente, c'era il panettone. Abbiamo brindato con lo spumante. Fuori nevicava e faceva freddo, ma noi stavamo bene in casa insieme. L'anno prossimo vorrei tanto che anche mia madre cucinasse le lenticchie per Capodanno! Arlecchino: Tutto questo parlare di lenticchie e panettone! Mi fa venire una fame da ... da ...Arlecchina: Da Pulcinella?Arlecchino: Proprio così!Pantalone: Allora gradirai un po' di questo squisito pandoro di Verona che mi hanno regalato i miei nipoti!Dialog: EnglishDottore: Yes? Oh! Non creditur!Colombina: Who is it from, Dottore?Dottore: A former student of mine! Sheilah! How she loved the New Year's holiday! Listen:Sheilah: I remember well a New Year's spent with a Piedmontese family ...For lunch we ate a stuffed pig's foot with lentils that the mother had cooked all morning (lentils bring good luck) and so many vegetables fried in a really light batter; for dessert, of course, there was a panettone. We toasted with sparkling wine. Outside it was snowing and cold, but we were comfy together inside. Next year I'd really like for my mother to cook lentils for New Year's too!Arlecchino: All this talk of lentils and panettone! It's making me hungry as ... as ...Arlecchina: As Pulcinella?Arlecchino: That's it exactly!Pantalone: Then you will enjoy a bit of this exquisite Veronese pandoro that my nephews gave me!