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Even with all of the property management software and tools breaking onto the scene lately, it seems that some entrepreneurs are still identifying gaps they could potentially fill… In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Eric Nelsen of Walkthroo to talk about a new maintenance solution in development for property managers and vendors. You'll Learn [03:36] What is Walkthroo? [08:43] Developing Software and Utilizing AI [16:52] Getting Time Back with User-Friendly Tools [23:02] Get in Touch with Walkthroo Tweetables  ” It's a lot easier to make changes to software when you're smaller and you're getting things started and you're doing it in the right way.” “ Time is probably the biggest benefit we provide.” “ Vendors in a lot of situations end up being the eyes, ears and hands for the property manager.” “ User experience is a big deal when designing software.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: It's a lot easier to make changes to software when you're smaller and you're getting things started and you're doing it in the right way. Once it turns into a giant beast and it's old, then it's really difficult.  [00:00:11] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:52] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:12] Now let's get into the show. And today I'm hanging out with Eric Nelson of Walkthroo. Eric, welcome to the DoorGrow Show.  [00:01:21] Eric: Thanks, Jason. Glad to be here.  [00:01:23] Jason: So Eric I would love to first get into your background. And my wife's chiming in saying I need to remember to promote DoorGrow live today, so I'll just do that right now real quick, and then we'll get to you, Eric. So if you are a property manager and you're watching this make sure you get tickets to DoorGrow Live like this is the most contribution focused, holistic property management conference in the industry. [00:01:44] We do things very differently. "There's heart" is kind of the feedback we get from others. People cry at our events. Like it's really awesome. It's going to be at the Kalahari resort here in Round Rock, Texas. And get your tickets right now. They go up in price over time. So head on over to DoorGrowLive.Com and get your tickets and be there. We've got sponsors. We've got cool speakers. It's going to be awesome. And DoorGrow magic is there. You're going to learn about growing your business from Sarah and myself and we'll help you out. All right, cool. Shameless plug inserted. [00:02:20] Now, Eric, I would love to get into your background. [00:02:23] You know, we hung out briefly in in Austin you came out and got to know each other a little bit, but I want my audience to get to know you share a little bit about How you kind of got into entrepreneurism, how you got into this. So tell us a little bit about your background.  [00:02:37] Eric: Yeah, sure. Sure. I grew up in Houston, Texas kind of came up through the finance world. So I spent about 10, 15 years in finance, went to grad school at Rice in Houston, and I just couldn't walk down the finance hallway. I saw the entrepreneurial professors down a different hallway, really wanted to kind of do my own thing. [00:02:55] So you know, stayed in finance for a couple more years and got into the pharmacy business. And through that business, I got exposed to IT technology and building software to kind of run our pharmacies and improve our ops and, and run those companies. And then a good friend of mine in Shreveport Springs, Texas was is a general contractor and said he works with these property managers and they, he does a lot of maintenance for rentals. [00:03:20] And he said, "yeah, Eric, I want to take on more business, but I can't keep track. There's so many little jobs. There's so much communication going on, text, emails, phone calls. You've got a software background. Can you help me?" And so that's, what's really exposed me to the property management industry and kind of started me on this path. [00:03:36] Got it. All right. So let's get into talking a little bit about Walkthroo and what it is. And it's, it's "walk T-H-R-O-O. So tell us a little bit about Walkthroo and what is it? What does it do?  [00:03:52] Yeah. So Walkthroo is, it's a really kind of a mindset and approach to the business and the underlying core is as much as accounting and tenant screening and even inspections, that software, those tools have grown, you know, with technological advances and whatnot. [00:04:13] If you really look at what we think is one of the four main pillars of property management is the maintenance, that hasn't grown. I mean, if you look back 10 years ago you really couldn't get multiple bids to do any work. If you look back 10 years ago, you couldn't pull up on your screen and compare two different bids. [00:04:29] 10 years ago, you couldn't split charges on an invoice between a tenant and owner. And you look today, fast forward 10 years, and I would say You know, 90- 95 percent of the platforms, you still cannot do those things. Well, when my partner brought me into this, you know, first he wanted me to help him with his, you know, just his construction company, but we quickly realized the problem wasn't him. [00:04:52] It was the property managers he was working with and the inefficiencies that came with the way they handle maintenance. So right out of the gate within a month. We switched that mantra. We're going to work to help property managers. And so that's really been what Walkthroo's focus has been the last three years. [00:05:09] And we really just, again, within the first three months we can get multiple bidders, we can split charges. And so it just showed me right away that it's not for a lack of technology or, you know, lack of know how even. It's just when you look at these software platforms and these operating systems, they just have bigger fish to fry. [00:05:27] They, you know, they all agree we should be able to hire multiple bidders with a couple clicks, but we're going to spend time doing X. So I can't explain it, but again, within the first six months, we had all these features built. And so now we're coming up on three years. We're really looking to round out the platform and keep growing. [00:05:45] Jason: Okay. So besides doing multiple bids and splitting charges, what would you say Walkthroo is? Like, what is, what does it accomplish?  [00:05:53] Eric: So we're going to be a full operating system for property managers. We started backwards. I spoke with the former CEO of Buildium post sale to real page. [00:06:03] And he told me flat out, "we did a lot of great things." I think they were in 19 countries at the time. He's like, "but I'll be honest here. We never figured out maintenance. And so if that's where you're starting, you know, good on you. Good luck." And so we started with maintenance and we built our platform around maintenance. [00:06:18] We've recently added inspections. And so we'll keep growing. So Walkthroo will be A full suite of operating suite for property managers. Currently, we're not there yet, I'm going to go through a couple of rounds of raising money. Currently, we're a maintenance tool. People can use our platform. And we also provide maintenance services still. [00:06:39] So that's, that's, that's kind of what we do today. And the third leg, which just launched, is, and this is probably the most unique feature of what we're building, every other maintenance tool or platform or operating platform out there has property manager and they invite people in and the people have to learn how to use your system and whatnot. We actually sell our software straight to contractors. [00:07:02] So they're using it independent of property management They're using it to paint houses, do handyman jobs around around their cities, and so we're building this network where property managers will be on Walkthroo, the contractors are on Walkthroo, and it's just a simple connection and you don't have, you know, the training and, you know, as a vendor ourselves the last few years, I've been through some trainings to use different systems and I can imagine. It's can like a painter, you know, in downtown Austin that has two employees trying to figure out all these platforms and how to work with these clients. So we're, our goal is to really simplify all that for all the stakeholders.  [00:07:39] Jason: Got it. So it sounds like Walkthroo, you're building this from the ground up. [00:07:43] You're building it as a tool to support and help based on what business owners actually need in property management. You started with one of the biggest challenges, which is maintenance. You're now adding inspections, you're adding other things. And the goal, the roadmap is to make it a full suite that helps maybe a better property management back office or software solution. [00:08:05] So the next big piece is then I'm sure on the roadmap somewhere is accounting and, tenant portals, owner portals, so they can see statements and submit the maintenance request, maybe like all of this kind of stuff. And so yeah, and I don't, I think that there's, there hasn't been a lot of innovation. [00:08:23] We've seen Rentvine come out recently. And it was born kind of out of a lot of complaints people were having about Appfolio. Appfolio was kind of born out of a lot of complaints people were having about maybe Buildium and Propertyware. Right. Right. And so, you know, when software is born out of complaints, you know, of different tools, yeah, it's going to be better than that tool, but it is interesting to start from the ground up building around the needs of and supporting the property manager and the work that they're doing. It'll be very interesting to see where you guys end up and what's kind of the timeline for all of this? [00:08:55] Eric: Well, you know, it depends on fundraising, right? So it's expensive, especially, you get into the accounting engines and a lot of that. There's a lot of costs involved. So we're hoping in the next You know, 12 to 18 months, we'd have a product out of, you know, for small property managers to run their business off our platform. [00:09:12] Jason: That's pretty fast. That's really the goal right now. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Yeah. And it sounds like you guys move quickly. You know. It's a lot easier to make changes to software when you're smaller and you're getting things started and you're doing it in the right way. Once it turns into a giant beast and it's old, then it's really difficult. [00:09:30] Like some of the older maintenance software companies I'm sure they're toying with the idea. Like, should we just rebuild from scratch or throw all this away? Or do we just work this until this horse dies, you know? And so that's always the challenge with software. [00:09:46] And then adoption is always a big challenge. So getting people to use something new or to change to something else. And a lot of times it's easier to get the smaller guys and the smaller companies to make changes. And the big companies are usually watching the little guys make all the mistakes or test stuff out or see. [00:10:04] And then they stand back to wait to see who the winners are. So...  [00:10:08] Eric: yeah, yeah. And thankfully I've got some experience on our side. My partner, Travis, he before he got into construction, him and his dad ran a small microscope specialized software company they sell it to universities. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but they could like take a laser and look into this, you know, the elemental makeup of a molecule. [00:10:26] It was really, really specialized, but that was exactly where he came from. He's like, yeah, you could go with Hitachi or a big Japanese brand, but you can't get them on the phone. You know, like you said, they've, they've done good. They've built so big, but now that's a hindrance. And we're in the same path. [00:10:40] You know, we didn't have splitting the owner and tenant charges, but you know, after talking to a few clients and a few property managers, that was just a common, very common thing. And I said, "well, let's just build it." Well, we're small or nimble, you know, we can, we can get away with that. [00:10:53] So we're going to take that same approach as we go through the accounting side of things, you know, and just interviewing property managers and listening to the industry and saying, Hey, my background is finance and operations. And so, you know, when I met you, something you brought up a lot was transforming lives and, you know, kind of making people enjoy their work and that's something I don't see. When we launched this tool. We decided to launch it internally two years ago. So we haven't really been selling Walkthroo, we've been using it ourselves. We currently manage Over 250 jobs in nine states. And so I talked to more maintenance coordinators and property managers every day and a lot of them could be happier. [00:11:35] So as we build this out, we want these tools to allow some sort of automation and allow people to focus on growing doors and, you know, and doing other things that are more beneficial versus banging their head against walls.  [00:11:49] Jason: Sure. Yeah. I know property management business owners would much rather spend their time focusing on scaling their business than dealing with all the the nitty gritty day to day challenges and difficulty in all the tools that they're dealing with. [00:12:04] So Eric, we're in the middle of this AI revolution and you're like right in the middle of building this tool as we're coming into this new AI revolution where there's just tons of software just coming out. And people can create tools and software a lot more easily and their AI is helping them. [00:12:22] And then everyone's trying to integrate AI. And then you see all these companies that are dinosaurs. They're trying to strap chat GPT on the side of their crazy rollercoaster. And like, you know, say now we have AI. And so how's AI kind of tie into you guys, you know, getting Walkthroo built out? [00:12:43] Eric: Yeah, great question. We've got a roadmap for it. We don't have anything integrated yet. I think it's, it's too early, but you know, my background is really improving operations efficiencies. And so once we have this tool built out, then we will again, deploy AI where it makes sense. Like you said, it's a buzzword. [00:13:03] People will say everything is aI generated. It's like, no, that's just a search function, but call it AI. And so we, you know, we know most of the data. I'm not well tuned on the accounting yet, but definitely on the maintenance side, we know what data and what decisions are being made every day because again, we've lived that life and we're living it now we're doing jobs. [00:13:24] And so we will bring in AI kind of as we roll out the full suite, you know, I'm not sure to be perfectly honest. I don't know if it's going to be a heavy lift. I mean, again, it really comes down to the operations of the business and work and we see efficiencies and you know, there's some decisions you want eyes on, you know, you want, you want human interaction and others are a little more mundane task. [00:13:45] And so we, we are definitely have that in the playbook but I, at this point, you know, our plan is not to have this fully automated AI, you know, software, it's going to be just a much cleaner, easier tool to use and AI will be obviously just a natural component of that. [00:14:01] Jason: Got it. I mean, I think that makes sense. A lot of people start, you know, thinking, Oh, let's make AI do everything. But I think, I think it probably does make a lot more sense to make sure that the tools and systems are working for humans and they're working the right way first. And then AI create some leverage now that this is working well. [00:14:21] And I think that goes for how business owners should implement technology in general is you first do the process manually, and then you start to look for points of leverage and where can I leverage tech, where could a tool like Walkthroo facilitate what I'm doing now or help move things forward? So who's your current target audience? [00:14:39] Like, who are the people listening to this podcast that you think should reach out to Walkthroo to get an assessment on their current maintenance situation?  [00:14:49] Eric: Yeah. I mean, we've talked to everyone from PMI to sole proprietors to self managers. So I would say our sweet spot is probably property managers with, you know, 200 to 500 doors. [00:15:02] Seems to be small enough where the data is not overwhelming. They're doing a lot of work, I feel from what I've seen personally, and so working with Walkthroo helps some of that. And people can work with us in different ways. We some people just use our software. You know, we, If we can, if we can manage jobs across nine states, truly, you know, we know people can manage jobs in their own town or their own state and some of them just hire us as a, they just have us on their preferred vendor list, you know, we obviously I don't have staff in nine states, so I use my tool to manage jobs and manage vendors and the third way people can access and partner with us Is we come on as your maintenance coordinator, you know, we'll use their vendors, their top vendors, let us manage it. [00:15:43] One question I always ask property managers, not surprisingly, the answer is usually similar is, you know, "have you ever logged in as a vendor to whatever system are you using?" [00:15:51] " Well, why would I do that?" It's like, well, yeah, you probably wouldn't think of it, but I recommend it because you know, it's, it's one of those tasks. It's important, but it's also been done since the dawn of property management, I give someone a job, they go do it. But if you, if you're using tools, I recommend logging in as that contractor and seeing what they're seeing. And, oh, this is why it's hard to communicate because I can't upload anything or I can't text or, you know, whatever, whatever it may be. [00:16:20] So the maintenance coordinator role is something we've been taking on more and more where it's like, yeah, you give us your favorite painters and handyman, and we'll either API into your system, or you just send your tenants our way. You know, we structured any way that works best for our clients and the, let us do the dispatching, you know, all the status checks. [00:16:39] I mean, you know, it's just a constant barrage of phone calls every Monday morning on where we're at. And of course, Sunday night we send out reports so we don't have to get those calls. Those are the three ways that property managers can work with us currently.  [00:16:52] Jason: What, what are the results that people that start working will Walkthroo tend to notice or what sort of the changes that you're creating for these business owners.  [00:17:02] Eric: It's time. Time is probably the biggest benefit we provide. You know most I just mentioned the Monday check ins or daily check ins most maintenance tools that I've seen in, by the way, the other way that we know our, our tool is is well built, it's acting and being a vendor for the last three years. [00:17:21] I've logged into all the other tools. You know, when a property manager sees Walkthroo, yeah, they say Oh, Eric, yeah, we're always looking for a new painter. Here's our login to our system. Great. So immediately we take notes and, and figure out what's, what's wrong, but the time component I would say is probably the, the most we hear back on, on the biggest benefit and then most systems will have status indicators, maybe something's in progress. [00:17:44] We've got over 20 statuses. Are we waiting on the contractor to finish the work? Are we waiting on the tenant to accept the schedule and confirm it? Are we waiting on the after pictures to come in. I mean, there's all these nuanced steps that I think historically again, bigger companies are busy, but coming from at it from fresh from outside the industry, it was like, well, this is important to know if I know that I'm waiting on the tenant to confirm a schedule, I don't need to waste my time calling the contractor, ask what's going on. [00:18:14] And so those, that's a little microcosm of. How we built our system and also just a, again, just the workflow. I mean, I was shocked. None of the systems I've used since I've been in property management, offer me a way to do a change order. Very simple, very common request. And I have to like make a phone call or send an email. [00:18:32] And it's just time, time, time. So we make all that click, click, click.  [00:18:37] Jason: For the listeners. Explain a typical change order sort of situation.  [00:18:41] Eric: Leaky faucet. We've got a leaky faucet. We want somebody to go check it out. Contractor shows up on site, looks at a leaky faucet, and says, yeah, this faucet's leaking here. [00:18:51] I can fix that. But also, it created mold and damage all behind it. All under the counter. We've got to rip all these counters out. Well, that's not what the contractor was there sent to do. It's definitely not approved without, you know, anyone signing off on that. So he's got to communicate back to the property manager, "Hey, there's a much bigger issue here." [00:19:11] And so in the industry, it's, you know, typically referred to as a change order. And so now the contractor usually sits and waits and says, okay, I'll, I'll wait for the property manager to talk to the owner. And see if they want me to rip off this cabinet and do all this extra work. You know, I'm just, you know, I'm just a contractor. [00:19:28] Can I explain what I see? So now we're in a waiting game, right? So a week later, property manager boss comes in and says, "what's going on on one, two, three Smith street?"  [00:19:36] Jason: Yeah.  [00:19:37] Eric: "Oh, well, there was a problem."  [00:19:38] "Okay. What's going on now?" [00:19:40] "I don't know. Oh, it looks like, I think we're waiting for the owner to give us the green light to do the new repairs" [00:19:46] and so you can, you can step back and realize how that can. And you add that times 50 jobs or 100 jobs and it starts, it really adds up. So again, the way we built our system was to really eliminate a lot of that excess time. And where are we in this maintenance process? And just put it on the dashboard. [00:20:03] Just like, you know, many other things in life now. Put it in front of my face, so I know where all my jobs are and all my maintenance tasks are located.  [00:20:11] Jason: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm sure that's a challenge, like people discovering new work when they go out to do work. And there's also the issue a vendor goes out to do work and then they notice other stuff they think the property manager should be aware of. [00:20:25] And yeah, I mean, vendors in a lot of situations end up being the eyes, ears and hands for the property manager, so.  [00:20:32] Eric: Yeah, actually that's, that's why we built our own inspection tool. You know, we see everything else that's out there, but a lot of it's not connected. It's, you know, it's separate tools. So I've got a system that does this and does that. [00:20:45] So we tell our contractors, it's in our app, which I think there might be two or three other maintenance platforms, but not many that actually have an app in the app store for the vendor. So again, I challenged property managers to log into whatever system they're using as a vendor. And you'll probably see it's not the easiest thing to use or communicate with. [00:21:05] Well, we turned that upside down and. We've got an app live in the app store. Contractors can download it. So when they're doing work for us, it's super easy. They're on their phone. So we added an inspection tool and said we're going to require you to do, if it's vacant, to do a full inspection. And we just provide that as a free service, like, hey, in case, in case you or the owner missed something, we happen to notice these other 10 items that you didn't want us to fix, but here's some pictures and a report, and so again, like, just to your point, we know we're the eyes and ears a lot of time, you know, at the property, so anything we can do to capture all that data and get it back to the property manager. [00:21:43] We think so it's a win for everyone.  [00:21:45] Jason: Yeah, I love that So, I mean historically that's been a big complaint about some of the property management maintenance coordination tools out there is that the getting vendors to use it the adoption of vendors has been like real difficult and maybe it's Just your from your experience. [00:22:02] Maybe they're just not very good for the vendors through for their experience. It's just not a great experience. So user experience is a big deal when designing software. And it sounds like you guys have kind of designed this from the ground up to make sure that the vendors are going to have a good experience using it. [00:22:17] Eric: Absolutely. You know, again, we, you know, we're, we're signed on as preferred vendor across, across nine states. And so it's, you know, it's our insurance, our butts on the line if the jobs aren't getting done. So we figured out very quickly, we cannot make this difficult for this contractor in Florida that doesn't know Eric from Dripping Springs, Texas. [00:22:36] So let's make the tool super easy. And that's exactly what we did. And so we've had... oh, I would say over three years, I think maybe three or four times we've had to coach somebody through how to use our maintenance tool.  [00:22:48] Jason: Really? Sometimes vendors are old school. [00:22:49] They're not the most tech savvy. They're, they're using physical tools, you know, but yeah. And so that says a lot that it's pretty intuitive or easy for them to figure out.  [00:22:59] Eric: Yeah, that was a big focus for us right out of the gate.  [00:23:02] Jason: Got it. Okay, cool. Well, for those that are, like, hearing about this, or a little bit interested in this, is there anything else they usually have questions about that we didn't touch on, or that they should know about Walkthroo? [00:23:14] Eric: Let's see, not really. I mean, I think we covered most of it. Again, our goal is to really provide more time. I just, we see so much wasted time, you know, in the maintenance process. Obviously, we're going to carry that on through the rest of the modules and operating software, but our goal is to eliminate that time and give it back to property managers and really allow them to, like you said, I know they'd much rather growing doors and making connections and using their time more wisely. [00:23:39] So, yeah. If we can save them hours a week that's really, really our goal.  [00:23:45] Jason: Got it. Okay. Well, it sounds like you guys focus on simplicity. You focus on making these work. How can people get in touch with Walkthroo?  [00:23:55] Eric: Yeah, you can go to our website. It's www.walkthroo.com . You can also send an email over directly to me or my team. My email is eric@thewalkthroo.com and if you want to just send it to our team, it's work orders@thewalkthroo.com.  [00:24:21] Jason: Got it. So it's 'the Walkthroo' and through is T-H-R-O-O. Okay. All right. Everyone listening, go check that out. [00:24:30] Eric, appreciate you being here on the DoorGrow show and hanging out with us. And I'm looking forward. We'll have to have you come back on once you guys have added some new features and it sounds like you guys are pretty aggressive at doing that.  [00:24:44] Eric: Absolutely. Thanks, Jason. Appreciate the time. Good seeing you.  [00:24:46] Jason: Good seeing you too. [00:24:47] All right. For those of you that are looking to grow your property management business or you're struggling, check us out at doorgrow. com. We would love to help you. We are getting amazing results with our clients. And so if you want to get from 0 to 100 doors, from maybe 100 to 200 doors, or you wanted to go from 200 to 500 doors, Or from 500 doors to a thousand doors, we can help you at each of these stages and each of these sticking points to grow and scale your business rapidly and to get the right stress free ops and systems in place so that you are able to do this without making your life worse personally. [00:25:21] And so check us out at doorgrow. com. And until next time everybody to our mutual growth, bye everybody. [00:25:28] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:25:54] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, Eric Miller from the Export-Import Bank of the United States (EX-IM) provides valuable insights into how this 90-year-old institution supports American exporters through strategic financial services. I also learned that EX-IM is one of just two governmental agencies that is an actual profit center. ​ Before joining EX-IM, Eric worked for a privately-held exporter that was a customer of EX-IM. His expertise both inside and outside of EX-IM sheds light on crucial products like export credit insurance, export financing, and financing for foreign buyers. These solutions can alleviate common hurdles inhibiting international trade growth. ​ We also talk through some real-world examples of these various EXIM solutions. This is a must-listen episode for any company doing substantial direct exports.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Eric Miller from the Export-Import Bank of the United States (Ex-Im Bank) discusses the role of the bank in aiding exporting companies with financial services, operating without costing taxpayers. We delve into how Ex-Im Bank and the Small Business Administration (SBA) offer loan guarantees and insurance to boost companies' borrowing capacity. Eric shares insights into export credit insurance and how Ex-Im Bank's products can help resolve common financial challenges in international transactions. The discussion covers Ex-Im Bank's new domestic project finance product, designed to support projects that have a significant export component. We touch on the requirement for a U.S. majority in product content, aiming to foster manufacturing and job growth in the United States. Eric explains the importance of services, like engineering and architectural services for foreign projects, requiring a U.S. majority for cost. We discuss government resources that can aid businesses in exporting, such as tax incentives and the Gold Key service provided by the U.S. Commercial Services. The episode highlights the STEP grant, a federal program managed by states to support companies with export-related expenses. Eric and I settle the Tex-Mex vs. BBQ debate with an appreciation for both, adding a lighthearted twist to the episode. Contact information for Eric Miller is shared for listeners who wish to connect and further explore export financing options. Contact Details Email (eric.miller@xmexim.gov) Phone Number (713-306-7969) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Export-Import Bank of the United States GUEST Eric MillerAbout Eric TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi, this is David Spray. Welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today is Eric Miller of the Export-Import Bank of the United States, colloquially known by the acronym of XM. More useful takeaways for privately held exporting companies than any guest I've ever had. We talked about the history of the XM, its purpose and the four service offerings that they have for privately held exporting businesses. We also talked about three other governmental arms that can also be of value. The other interesting thing about Eric is he actually was a customer of XM early in his career when he was a minority owner of an exporting business. So Eric's a really dynamic guy. He's really passionate about serving exporting companies and he really understands what it's like to be in the shoes of their customers. I really recommend you take a listen to this one. It's really valuable hey good morning Eric. Welcome to the podcast. Eric: Thank you, Dave. It's a pleasure to be here. It's an honor. Thank you. Dave: Well, the pleasure is all mine. So where are you connecting from today? What part of the world are you in at the moment? Eric: The great state of Texas. I'm in the Houston area, born and raised in Texas and been all over the world, but this is home. Oh, that's awesome. Dave: In fact, I think you even stayed close for college, right. Eric: I did. I'm a Cougar alumni, so a proud Houston native. Dave: Awesome, so I'm really excited to have you on. You are with the Export Import Bank of the United States, correct? Correct so we also go by XM Bank, sorry. Eric: Yep. Dave: So tell me about XM, tell me about the kind of the history of the organization and why it exists, and then we'll get it. We'll see where the conversation goes. Eric: Yeah, no, it's a good question. I'm biased, of course, working here, but I think it's one of the most fascinating government agencies that exist. We're set up in the executive branch of the federal government. We've been around for 90 years. Most people haven't heard of us. We are small. We've got anywhere between 400 and 500 people as a part of the agency. Most are headquartered in Washington DC, but we do have a dozen regional offices scattered throughout the US and all the major cities. I cover the Houston office and in doing so, I work with exporters in the great state of Texas and help them export more US made products and services. That's really what we're about here at XM Bank is supporting our US companies that are exporting a US made good or service. We're on the finance side of that help. There's other government agencies. Throughout the whole process of a transaction, whether it's finding buyers, whether it's financing a transaction or even getting grant money to help you export. There's other support, but EXIM is specific on the finance piece. Dave: Okay, and so does EXIM. At the end of the day, you know, does this cost taxpayers, you know, billions of dollars to have this thing in place. Eric: Yeah, that's another good question. So you know, we're one of the few agencies historically that have actually built a surplus of money for the taxpayer. In other words, we're using less than we're making and we send money back to Treasury. It changes year to year, but historically, if you look over the past you the past 20, 30 years we're generating a surplus and sending that back to treasury, so costing taxpayers billions of dollars. No, we like to operate a little differently than a government agency. We are an independent government agency, which means we're not inside a cabinet, but we are set up in the executive branch and we like to say we run at the speed of business Internally, we're very efficient, we're very effective and we're very aggressive, trying to reach out to US companies and get them involved in helping them. Dave: Well, that is awesome. I think it sounds like just a win, right. It's a win for the taxpayers. It's actually a profit center, if you will, for the taxpayers. It's good for the exporters, it's good for the country. Am I correct? I think the only other government agency I've ever heard of that's a profit center is like the Patent and Trademark Office. Have you heard that too? Eric: I think you're right. Now, I haven't researched that myself, just in passing and conversations I've heard of the same and there might be one or two others out there. But yeah, it's an unusual feat of a government agency to kind of generate that surplus for a taxpayer and send it back to Treasury. We do charge, you know, fees and that's how the agency itself makes and brings in money. We charge fees for our different products and you know we have products like export credit insurance. To just kind of dive into what we do, yeah, let's do that In export credit insurance to just kind of dive into what we do yeah let's do that In export credit insurance. So let me take a couple steps back. When an exporter engages in international business, when they find a foreign buyer in a country and they say, hey, here's what I sell, whether it's a product or service, there's always a sticking point. If you will product or service, there's always a sticking point if you will in the negotiations, when it comes to money flow. And what I mean by that is the exporter will say, hey, I'll ship my product or I'll do the service, but go ahead and wire me money before I ship it. And then the importer, the buyer there's always a reluctance to say well, I don't want to wire you money, because what if you close your doors? I never hear from you again. So when there's a new relationship and there's a transaction that's trying to occur, money, the movement of money, is always a sticking point. Who sends it first? And exporters lose a lot of deals because of this. I speak to exporters on a daily basis and every week there's at least one that says I wish I would have known about this. It would have helped me with the last negotiation I had with a foreign buyer who said you know, ship me the product on open account and I'll pay you 60 days later. I wasn't comfortable with that as an exporter so I closed the door and lost the deal. So XM gets involved and we say no, go ahead. And you know, if they're asking for credit terms, go ahead and provide that to them and we will back you up on the payment. We will insure that receivable from default. So if something goes wrong and the foreign buyer doesn't pay back the exporter as intended, we will insure it. They put a claim into us. So when I say claim, just like any other insurance policy, right, you're driving a car and you get to an accident, you file a claim. Something goes wrong with the house, you file a claim with the home insurance provider. We're no different. We're an insurance provider on foreign receivables and the government gets involved in this space because you know, david, look at the trade deficit. Last year we're nearing a trillion dollars. Most years, from year to year in the last 10 years, it's getting worse and worse. So what I mean by that is we're bringing in way more than we're sending out, and what we have found through our research as a government agency is the number one reason more US companies are not sending more product abroad is the number one reason is fear. They are fearful of what that process looks like and the government gets involved. Then we say let's take away that fear. We'll put the risk on our shoulders as it relates to credit insurance. Go ahead and give your foreign buyer terms or open account. We'll shoulder the risk and if they don't pay you, we'll pay you. And we want to help the trade deficit. We want to as a government agency. We want to stimulate US manufacturing. We want to create jobs through exports. That's really what the mission is here at Ex-Im Bank. Dave: Okay, yeah, no, that's really good. And do you specifically underwrite each customer? You know each foreign customer, or is there just you guys? Just use some general parameters. Eric: Yeah, no, it's a good question, like what does that process look like? So we have four different credit insurance policies. We can do everything from hey, we'll underwrite every buyer if you're not comfortable with it. Or hey, we'll give you a policy where you can do your own underwriting according to our credit standards but give you that autonomy inside your company to do it without coming to us every time there's a buyer. So there's different approaches. Most exporters like the autonomy because they can approve a credit right then and there, rather than sending us the paperwork and then us process it and then get back to them. So it just depends on timeline. But yeah, we can do either. Dave: And does the policy insure 100% of the invoice or is there a co-insurance piece where your customer is taking some of the risk? Eric: So the coverage will be anywhere from 90 or 95%, depending on which policy. Most of them are in that 95% range, but some of them are in the 90. Okay, they have the option. Dave: Yeah. So it's enough that as long as the company's got decent margins right, if their margin's greater than 5% or 10%, then their risk is just if a deal goes bad. They didn't make any money on that deal. Eric: That's a fair way of looking at it? Dave: Yep, but they have enough skin in the game that they do want to make a profit on that transaction. They want to all that trouble. So they have a motivation to not, you know, sell to people who you know they have serious concerns about their ethics or integrity or ability to pay. Eric: Exactly, and that's really what it's all about. Hey, I've got a new relationship and you know, name a country. They're asking for open account. And open account, you know, most people are comfortable with that in the US. They have a recourse in mind. Hey, if I don't pay, here's the process where I can recoup. But that all goes away when you send it to a foreign country. Like you know, how do I even get my money if I don't? I'm dealing with a different legal environment, political currency, culture, I mean. The list goes on and on. So that's where, wherein lies the fear for the exporter. And there's government agencies, both local, state and federal, all of them. We want to surround the exporter, prop them up, take away the fear, shoulder the risk and get them comfortable in international business. Dave: Okay, so you may mention the one person you were talking to that said they wish they'd known about XM because they kind of lost this deal. Do you have another case study, if you will, or example and obviously you don't have to mention the specific company by name where everything did work out kind of a success story, where maybe they were not exporting much but with this credit insurance it really helped them materially increase their sales? Do you have any examples like that, just to help people further understand? Eric: Oh yeah, we have a whole list of resources on our website. There's a section dedicated to success stories of all the different companies and we like to diversify the industry and the product and we've got you name it and it's probably up there. One that just immediately comes to mind is a company and they've been kind of a strong advocate of Ex-Im Bank. They're called BuzzBalls and it's alcohol manufactured here in Texas in the Dallas area, and they were very successful domestically. I mean, you can find these little alcohol glasses basically in any kind of retail store in the US. But as they looked abroad they wanted to de-risk a lot of their open account with distributors and really I think the last I heard they either doubled or tripled the revenue by focusing on foreign buyers, distributing it to the distributors, the foreign distributors giving them credit to pay and Ex-Im Bank insuring the risk. I mean, it's just one interesting example that you know, if little cups of alcohol can move abroad, mostly anything can. Dave: Oh, that's great, I love that and thank you for that. Thank you for that example. So now let's say that a company is contemplating exporting and let's say they have this large potential order you know large for them, you say it's a $5 million company annual revenues and suddenly they have this pay for the materials from their supplier and they maybe don't have enough working capital to do that and maybe they're in a spot where you know a traditional bank loan or line of credit. They're maybe, just maybe what you'd call not bankable. What happens then? Does the whole process just fall apart? You know they've got the credit insurance but they don't have the cash to buy the goods. What happens then? Eric: Yeah, that's really the second big problem in international trade. So the US banking system in general is challenging to help US companies fill export orders, and what I mean by that is, in your example, a $5 million revenue company. It can even be bigger than that, it could be 20, 30, 40. The problem with a lot of US companies is when their foreign sales start to get significant and they go to the bank and say, hey, I need a line of credit, not just for my domestic business, I need it for my international too. There becomes a problem in the banking system. There's this view that it's high risk and, as bankers tend to be more conservative and shy away from risk, so most times US companies have problems getting the money they need to fill these export purchase orders. So government gets involved, Ex-Im gets involved and SBA also has a product similar to the Ex-Im bank. It varies according to the banker who wants to use the product, but the idea behind it is we become a guarantor of repayment to the lender. So in your example, $5 million a year company, $2 million foreign sale that we're going to insure they walk that over to the bank and they say, hey, I got insurance on the receivable. Great, it's a $2 million deal. Now I need a million bucks or whatever as a line of credit to build all this stuff or go out and buy it. The bank will say, okay, where's it going? Oh, it's leaving the country. I can't help you. But when you come back with a US purchase order, then we can get serious in our talks. The company is stranded and they can't get the money, the capital they need to fill these orders with working capital. So we get involved and we say, hey, if they're presenting financial statements and the financial statements merit the ability to borrow what they're asking for a million, whatever it is and you're only saying no because it's an export, go ahead and give them the money that they need that they're asking for again, as long as it meets the credit standards, and we'll co-sign, we become a repayment guarantor to that line of credit so they can have access to the money that they need to fill these foreign buyer purchase orders. Guarantees and insurance is really kind of what we're about here at Ex-Im Bank to enable this cross-border trade. On the finance piece, Now, with that line of credit that we guarantee, they could also use it to issue bid bonds or performance bonds or standby letters of credit. Because another problem in our banking system is when a exporter bids on a foreign tender, that tender sometimes will say hey, if you want to bid on this, you got to put up a performance bond or a bid bond and that kind of weeds out the non-serious suppliers versus the serious. And when they want to supply that bid bond and they go to the bank, put the equivalent amount of cash in your account, I'll escrow it and then issue the bond. And then the exporter you know has this confused look. And well, I don't want to pay for my own deal and block my own cash. So under the XM line of credit you can actually use borrowed money to issue those bid bonds, performance bonds, standby LCs at a reduced cash collateral, so you're not tying up your cash. Dave: Interesting. Eric: And what's the? Dave: typical I think the term like if you're factoring an invoice, it's called. I think it's called like the advance rate, like what percentage you could borrow, like on the you know the purchase order or the invoice that you create. What's that percentage? You know, through the XM financing. Eric: So we put it into two categories pre-export and post-export. Okay, pre-export is the working capital right, the inventory, work in process, finished goods. So under that you could borrow a 75% advance rate. Then post-export, once it becomes a receivable, you could borrow 90. So it's pretty generous advance rates and typically it helps exporters fill these purchase orders much easier if we weren't involved. Dave: Yeah, Cause I think I was a CFO of a company many years ago and we were growing rapidly and we're using factoring and the. It seems like the advance rate we were able to get on the factoring for domestic sales, let alone international, was only like 70 or 80%. So, and even I think I'm told that even if a company has a line of credit that they're backing with inventory and domestic receivables, that still a typical kind of advance rate is really only like I think, about 80. And so you're talking about an even higher, if I'm using the correct term, than what a traditional bank would provide to a traditional bankable customer for a domestic sale. Is that accurate, based on your knowledge? Eric: Yeah, very accurate. And sometimes you know I go back to the example of US banks don't like export orders, and they don't. Sometimes they will give an advantage. They've got a traditional line of credit set up for domestic. They may say we'll let you borrow 10, 20, 30% advance rate on the export stuff. With our guarantee we can expand that to 75, up to 90. So it could be that we expand the borrowing base or just let alone get them access to it for export orders, with our guarantee. Dave: Okay, yeah, this is really valuable and I can't wait to get the word out to our contacts. So, on the working capital piece so how does that work then? Is the process that they call up their bank and say, hey, do you guys do anything with XM and they just work purely through their banker? Or do they call you up and say, hey, we need some working capital? We don't really have a big banking relationship. Can you recommend somebody? Help me understand the logistics? Eric: of it, Absolutely. Yeah, it's a good question. We recommend starting with us. It's very easy to get lost in the banking system and trying to figure out who to talk to about getting the setup. A lot of time exporters will speak to their local relationship manager and they start talking about XM working capital and they're like you know who's XM? I don't, I don't even know what you're talking about. Slow down, so it's more efficient to start with us and if they're working with a bank that is in our lender network, we can go directly to the right person and connect them with the exporter to have those conversations. If they're working with a lender that is not inside our our network, we can still locate a lender to set up kind of a XM specific line of credit if that's something they want to pursue. Dave: Okay. Eric: Okay. Dave: Now this is really valuable. Does the bank have any other service lines besides the foreign receivables insurance and the working capital? Eric: We've got a couple others. One of them is called foreign buyer finance. Okay, this is a real interesting one. This is when a US company is selling capital equipment to a foreign buyer and when that capital equipment quotation gets to the foreign buyer, what we see often is they'll go to their bank. In some of these emerging markets, developing countries, the buyer will go to the bank and say, ok, you know, I got a quotation for, let's say, you know, john Deere equipment, ag equipment or Caterpillar, construction equipment or mining equipment, whatever. They go to their bank and they say I need to borrow to pay the US company for the equipment. And when they get a term sheet from their local bank, if you're familiar with international business and international finance, the cost can be much higher than what we're used to paying in the US as far as cost of capital Cost of capital I've seen even triple and quadruple in some of these developing markets. And then the buyer the deal falls to the wayside because the buyer can't afford to pay the bank all this cost associated with the capital. So in situations like that and kind of high cost capital markets, we can get involved and find a lender, as long as we've got good audited financial statements and they meet credit standards, we can find a lender to give that foreign buyer a term loan, a three to seven year term loan, of which we guarantee repayment of to the lender, to buy that US made capital equipment. So, in simple terms, we can finance a foreign buyer when the foreign buyer is buying US made equipment, and what we have found is the US companies that really know this product inside and out use that as a competitive advantage. They're saying, hey, sure, on one hand, here's my quotation for the equipment and on the other hand, I can get you finance if you need it. And I can get you finance if you need it. And the companies that do that well, I mean their sales shoot through the roof because now they become this finance facilitator for foreign buyers to access cheaper capital, which we've even seen companies where maybe they're 10% higher on the bid than some of the other countries, but they're saving them 15% on the finance. Dave: Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, I can see that that's really clever. I was familiar with the first two pieces, but I really was not familiar with that. I mean, yeah, that's a real competitive advantage. I mean it makes you wonder how a company in I don't know pick your country, brazil, that you know is trying to compete Like how do they compete when they can't? I'm guessing that they probably don't have the same type of capability to offer you know these, you know more attractive financing rates. Eric: So, yeah, that's a great point XM Bank we're also referred as an export credit agency, eca. So every developed country in the world has the equivalent of us. Out of, let's say, roughly 200 countries, there's 120 of us representing the nation of each country. So what we know is, as it relates to international business, there are, you know, foreign. When there's foreign competition in the tender, sometimes that foreign competition knows about their local ECA also. Right, so they could be offering the same thing. Hey, I can get you, you know, finance through my local ECA. You know name, a country, country. So we want companies in the US to be aware of how we can help them and support them, just like other member countries of partner ECAs do, because it's a competitive advantage and if they're not aware of it, it's a loss really for the exporter. And I mentioned four products. So we went over export credit insurance, the working capital getting the foreign buyer a loan, and then the fourth one. It came out about a year and a half ago. It's a new product that we're super excited about and it's really domestic project finance where there's an export nexus. And what I mean by that, david, is let's take an industry, let's take LNG. When an LNG liquid natural gas. When liquid natural gas projects in wherever let's call it Texas, when they go live and you've got a solid entity set up for the purpose of building an LNG plant maybe there's corporate shareholders, maybe there's individual shareholders, whatever it may be when banks take a look at this and they see that it's a domestic project finance structure meaning the off of any kind of contract will repay the loan Bankers don't like that. Bankers don't like project finance. If we look at a project where there's an export nexus and what we define as an export nexus is 25% of the sales will be exported we could potentially be a lender or a loan guarantor to that domestic project as long as there's going to be 25% foreign sales, and we could go down to 15% if it's a small business, so we can involve oh, that's really cool. Dave: Yeah, because I mentioned the bank is going to say, yeah, it sounds like a great opportunity. Go find some investors to fund this and then, once you start exporting the LNG, give us a call. We'll give you some working capital and you'll work with XM to ensure the receivables, but until then, hey, it's on you. Eric: That's it. That's the problem. That's where a lot of these projects get stuck in the banking system as it relates to traditional banking. They can't get the money they need to lift this project up, and it could be a great project, but yeah, banks like to see history right. I want to see your balance sheet income statement, cash flow last three years. Let me underwrite it Well, there is none. It's a new project and we're building it. Well, we can't help you Go find some investors, and that's typically the conversations. So, instead of these deals disappearing, as long as there is solid offtake agreements, we can look at that, potentially to repay the loan, and we do that on the foreign buyer side too. Dave: Yeah, and to be fair to the bankers I know many bankers and have great relationships If a bank is paying 5% for a deposit and they're lending it out at, say, 8%, by the time they pay their fees and stuff they really don't have a lot of margin left. So you know they have an imputed default rate. You know that they can tolerate of like half a percent, right, maybe 1%, right. I mean, that's just their model. Eric: Margins are thin, you're right. Dave: Yeah, and they're probably even I'm guessing even prohibited from saying okay, yeah, we'll finance this deal for you, but this is high risk. So instead of a 7% loan, it's gonna be 30%. I mean, the banks probably aren't even allowed to do. There's probably usury laws or something. Am I correct in that? Eric: Yeah, yeah. So they would definitely view the risk differently as a domestic project finance. But I would say, even more so, the regulatory issues involving domestic project finance probably prohibit the lenders from doing that. Dave: Even oh yeah, yeah, that's right. I never thought about that. Eric: There's definitely some challenges in that space. I never thought about that. There's definitely some challenges in that space. Dave: Yeah, that makes sense because really, from a holistic perspective, you would say hey, bank, this isn't your sweet spot. This is like venture capital, risk capital. Let them find a lender, like a hard asset lender, that'll charge a much higher rate, or let them raise equity capital to finance this. This isn't what you're designed for, mr First National Bank, Exactly. Eric: Okay. Dave: What are some of the limits, minimum maximums for these different products? Let's start with the credit insurance. Is there a minimum size that you all have insurance? Is there a minimum size like that you all have? I mean, I'm guessing if somebody has a hundred dollar foreign receivable that they want to insure, probably doesn't really make sense for everybody. So is there a minimum size? Is it a hard minimum or kind of a soft minimum? Eric: Yeah, that's a great question. So we don't have a minimum per se, documented minimum, but yeah, it's got to make sense right To go through the process. So I mean, we've insured receivables as low as a couple thousand bucks, so that's for credit insurance. For working capital we also don't have a minimum, but that's set by the lender. So we say hey, as long as the lender will do the loan, we'll take a look at the guarantee and most lenders that we have spoken to we probably would say that the minimum with most lenders is around a half a million for a working capital line of credit. And then on the foreign buyer side, again it's got to make sense to the lender. We don't have a minimum. Most lenders, I would say the minimum I've seen where a US lender would give a loan to a foreign buyer is also around a half a million. Maximum, no maximum, but anything above 25 million has to go to our board. The largest we did in the bank's history was in Mozambique, for an LNG facility was 5 billion. Oh wow. Dave: And then are there limits on the working capital and credit insurance, similar limits that require board approval. Eric: Anything above 25. Yep, it's the same 25 number, correct, which it's. You know it's not prohibitive, it just adds another layer to the process. Yeah. Dave: And even again, even if XM wasn't involved, I know a lot of banks, just you know, when loans get above a certain amount they want to syndicate them with other banks, just for their own risk. And I think a lot of times those syndication amounts for a medium-sized bank will start in that 10 to $25 million, as I understand it. And then what about the domestic projects that have 25% export expectations, any minimum or maximums there that you've seen? Eric: So I would say there's no hard set minimum, but the soft minimum I'm seeing is probably 5 million plus and the reason for that is the SBA, the Small Business Administration, also a federal government agency. They have similar products that go up to five, so this will take it past five and we don't want to compete with another government agency. They have similar products that go up to five, so this will take it past five and we don't want to compete with another government agency, so it's five below. Sba might be a better fit. Five above we're probably the only game in town. Okay, zero to five, taking some notes on this Five plus. Dave: You know, one of the other interesting things is we've had this conversation that if you think people have never heard of XM, they're even, I think, less likely to have heard of the ICDISC program. You know we specialize and what's interesting is how is the number of parallels? I mean, the thing that I can't, you know that blows me away is how logical everything is with XM. Like you know, there's a, you know there's a perhaps a belief that some government programs, agencies that there's no real logic to it. It was just it was some negotiation in Congress and they had just some arbitrary rules. But you know, as I kind of look at these, they just all seems very logical, right? And you know, like you know, above a certain amount you need board approval Again, just like in a bank, right, when they're doing a $25 million loan, it's probably got to go to a loan review committee or something. But the other thing is there's some similarities between XM and the ICDISC and one of them is the 51% US content. Can you explain how that works with XM, because I think it's pretty much the same as ICDISC. Eric: To my knowledge it is also yeah. So it goes back to really the mission right Creating jobs through US exports, and we want to stimulate US manufacturing. So we can't support a trade where you know Houston companies buying from China and sending it down to you know name a country in South America. There's no value add for the country. So Congress basically put a policy to the agency that says anything that we support has to be greater than 50% US content. So another way of saying it's just 51%. Right, majority of the product has to be US content, and the way that we calculate that is we look at the cost. So if they're selling a widget that they sell for $100, but it costs $70, we're going to look at the $70 and say $30 of that, 70 needs to be US content. So that's really we look at the cost and the majority of the cost needs to be US made, whether it's product. Dave: Or another way of saying it is no more than $36 foreign cost Yep, that makes sense. Eric: And if it's a service, by the way, sometimes we get these service questions, by the way, because sometimes we get these service questions where, hey, you know, I'm an engineering company designing, you know, a refinery plant for a foreign buyer. How do I look at that as far as US content? So what we do is we say, okay, start with your invoice. Right, whatever you're billing out, if it says engineering services or CAD drawings or whatever, take that and then look at the cost and greater than 50% needs to be US citizens or green card holders as part of that cost for services. So we basically look at the citizenship of the provider for evaluating US content and the cost. Dave: Yeah, and that's somewhat similar to the ICDISC really only includes two types of services that are eligible engineering services and architectural services for foreign construction projects or services that are an integral part of the sale. You know, like if you sell a product for a million dollars and there's a $200,000 installation service, as long as that's an integral part of the, you know the project that qualifies, you know that service does. But yeah, that's interesting. So let's say somebody says hey, you know, eric, I really like the sound of this and I'd like to talk to you. But you know, I just feel like you know, you're probably a lifelong government employee. You probably want to work right out of college. You don't know what it's like to sit in my shoes. You don't know what it's like to have been on the private side. You know having these foreign customers. What would you say to them? Eric: Yeah, so being a government employee is new to me also, yeah, so after college I started at a company and worked there for a decade, grew into sweat equity. I was a part minority shareholder and I was a customer of Ex-Im Bank for 10 years. Yeah, we were a company that exported capital equipment all over the world, but with a concentration in Sub-Saharan Africa. Okay, and we grew rapidly with the help of Ex-Im Bank. We used all the products of credit insurance, the working capital, getting the foreign buyer a loan and that really became a competitive advantage to the company. Because we looked at ourselves saying, hey, we're an equipment supplier, but so is the other hundreds of companies around, if not thousands of companies. How do we make ourselves different? And the finance became very important to that conversation, because you can Google, search equipment companies in the US and you're going through thousands of pages trying to find an equipment supplier. But not everybody is saying, hey, we have financial solutions too. If you need them, we can get you a loan. We can sell to you an open account with our insurance. We can get the capital we need to fill these export purchase orders. We can get the line of credit that we need to send bid bonds and performance bonds to some of these large tenders. So, going back to your question, I've been at Exxon for seven years, but the majority of my career was in the private sector and being a minority shareholder of a company that used the bank that I work for now to grow a small business. Dave: What a great story, like it would seem like you have the perfect background for your role I mean, you're actually a customer for your role. I mean you're actually a customer. So the private companies that you're trying to help you really do understand what it's like to be in their shoes. Eric: I think most employees that work here at ExxonMobil found we're very service oriented. We like to help. We like to help. It's fun for us to help. It's fun for me to help. The best part of my day is meeting small business exporters, helping them become aware of all the resources that are available to them to become more competitive and grow, like we did when I was with that company. Dave: Yeah, it's just amazing how similar our days are. That's also the favorite part of my job is when I get a phone call from somebody and they say hey, you know, bob said I should call you. You know we're. Our exports have really grown a lot, and there's this thing called ICDISC and you know, tell us about it, are we the right fit? And it's great to be able to help them. Oh, I was just going to ask you something. Oh, what about indirect exports? Do they qualify under an indirect export? Eric: Great question, yeah, so under the working capital it does. So if you have an exporter that's selling to you know name a major company, let's say a major oil and gas company who in turn is exporting that out, we call that an indirect export. That does qualify them to get the capital they need to fill that order. Dave: Yep, Another parallel with the IC disk. The IC disk is the same way. Yeah, Most of our clients are actually indirect exporters. So some of the products would not be as beneficial, you know, like the credit insurance, for example, because they don't have any foreign receivables. But you know, they don't have any foreign receivables, but they still may have use for some of the other products. Okay, so I've got just a couple more questions. Eric: Well, first off, is there anything we didn't cover that you wish I had? I would say there's other government resources that every exporter should know. Dave: Okay, what are those? Eric: Yeah, so one of them is the US Commercial Services. They're a part of the Department of Commerce and they've got an office in every major city in the US. I think there's a hundred, if I remember right, a hundred US Commercial Service offices scattered throughout the US. If you're in Houston, there's one in Houston. Great folks, we work with them closely. They've got some really good products as well for exporters. One of them is called the Gold Key, and the Gold Key it basically connects buyer and seller. So once the agency understands the company, they met with them. They understand the company, they understand what they're selling. They have to be what's called export ready. So an existing business that's already selling, let's say they're successful here domestically and they want to export. You know, let's say that to the, to our closest neighbors, first Canada and Mexico. But they're like hey, I don't, how do I even do that? How do I find a buyer, how do I find a distributor in these countries? That's really the first step in kind of the. The maze of exporting is first you got, you have to have a buyer. We're kind of second to that right. Once you have a buyer, then it's money talks and then we get involved. But even before us. The commercial services can get involved and under the gold key they can find distributors, partners, buyers in foreign markets. Wow, yeah, under the gold key. So they basically, once they understand the business, they work with the embassy in that country and say, hey, I've got, you know, bob, here's his company, been around for 10 years, successful in the U? S, but they want to start with Mexico. And can you find them buyers, can you find them distributors? And they try to play matchmaker. So they generate a list and they recommend going to the country that you want to export to shake hands, stare them in the face, sit down with them physically, because that's another important thing in international business you can't just stay behind the phone or email. You really have to go to these places. Dave: Wow, so that's amazing. Now the bad news, Eric, is you and XM may have just dropped to number two as far as my favorite government agency. I mean, depending on where a company is, that might be even more valuable, right? Because without the customers, they don't even need the other products of XM. That's really cruel. Eric: That's right yeah. I mean they need a buyer before they come to XM. They need a foreign buyer and commercial services can help with that. Dave: So be careful. You're about to list some other agencies and may further knock you down on the priority list, so be careful there. Eric: That's OK, we're here to help. So you know. Another problem with small businesses you know I'm selling domestically. You know successful I'm selling domestically. You know I'm successful. Maybe I'm running on thin margins. I don't have the capital that I need to go into all these countries and spend all this money and cross my fingers that I get business. And I just don't want to spend that kind of money and risk that kind of money because I need to keep my lights on and pay employees first. So there's something called the STEP grant S-T-E-P grant. Dave: STEP grant. Eric: It stands for statewide trade export promotion, so most states participate in it. It's federal money given to the states who in turn give grant money to companies who are looking to export, and they can use that grant money for travel you know, hotel, stay, airfare. They want to do website translation on their website from you know English to Mandarin and Spanish to. You know capture half the world. They want to. You know create design, create print flyers. You know any kind of marketing collateral that will aid them in promoting their company to foreign buyers. This is a reimbursable grant, which means you apply for it. You can say, hey, I want to go to Mexico, my airfare is going to cost this, my hotel is going to cost this, conference in Mexico is going to cost this, and all together it's going to be $10,000. So you apply for it and then, once approved, you can get up to 75% of that back. Dave: So you have to actually spend the money. Eric: First you got to spend. That's the key thing there. You got to spend the money, but you got to get it approved. Once it's approved, then you spend the money and then you come back and give them your receipts. Dave: Wow, that's pretty cool. Does that fall under one of the federal agencies? Is that kind of the ultimate umbrella, or is it really more of a state by state program? Eric: In Texas the Department of Ag is administering the fund and I think it does vary state by state on who holds the money and approves it and disperses the money, and I may be wrong, but I think it goes up to $10,000. It's either $7,500 or $10,000 max amount that can be approved. Okay, you can apply every year. Some companies do that. Okay, and what else? Are there some other? The SBA, small Business Administration Sure, most people know them for domestic business, but they also have an export arm called the OIT, which is Office of International Trade. So they have export finance products just like we do. They're not competitive to one another. They're slightly different in various aspects. They can get you working capital, usually for smaller loans, or they can get you something called an international trade loan and what that is used for is like, hey, I need to buy some capital equipment to go into my factory and it's going to cost a million bucks and it's going to generate export sales, that kind of finance structure. Dave: Is the structure kind of the same, or does the borrower have to put up a bigger percentage? Or do you know? Eric: For the international trade loan. I think it's similar. They guarantee the lender just like we guarantee the lender. The international trade loan I think it's similar. They guarantee the lender just like we guarantee the lender and lenders. You know, we like to say the lender makes the decision because our guarantees are slightly different than one another. So some lenders will say, hey, I'm more comfortable with XM, or hey, I'm more comfortable with the SBA, or hey, this is above $5 million. The only one you could do is XM Bank. So it's really up to the lender to evaluate the guarantee and what fits them best. Dave: Well, that is awesome. Any other government agencies that you tend to work with regularly those are the big ones. Eric: They'll always be in the same circles the SBA, the commercial services, and ourselves in the same circles, promoting as much as we can to our communities. Dave: That's awesome. Well, this has been so informative. I really appreciate the time. I just have two more questions, and they're really kind of fun ones, okay. So the first one is if you could go back in time and give advice to yourself, like right, when you were graduating college, what advice might you give to yourself? You know, with the benefit of hindsight, you know, if you kind of go back in time. Eric: What advice might you? Dave: give to yourself. You know, with the benefit of hindsight, you know if you kind of go back in time what advice might you give to yourself, you know? Things to do instead, or do sooner, or what comes to mind. Eric: That's a really good question, you know, going back in time, I would say, for the company that I worked for and some of the things that I don't like to say did wrong. But if we could repeat it and how we would do it differently. When the business grows and we grew fast our operational costs also grew fast and I think if we were better controlling the operational cost when there was a dip in revenue, there wouldn't be so much growing pains or slowing pains. I think getting a better grasp operationally on a business when it's going through the growth phase is key to its long-term success, because a business is not always going to accelerate up. There's going to be peaks and valleys and as long as you manage the operational cost of the company, it can get through. You know look at COVID right Nobody predicted that how many businesses went through all kinds of painful experiences. So that, going back in time, just from a business standpoint, I think that would have been super helpful in our judgment and assessment of looking towards the future. Dave: Okay, I really like that. Well, we just have one left, and this one's even more fun. Don't think about this, I just want. It's kind of a snap answer. Okay, so you're a native Texan, right Native Houstonian, tex-mex or barbecue. Eric: Oh, I got to go with Tex-Mex. I love barbecue, barbecue. Oh, I gotta go with tex-mex. I love barbecue, but you know the chips and queso and salsa and guacamole. Dave: I don't think everything competes with that. Yeah, I, I asked this question of all my guests and and I had two answers that were interesting. One answer was if it's, if I know that the food is going to be average, I, I absolutely would take the Tex-Mex, because Tex-Mex has more tolerance for averageness. Ok, they said. But if it's going to be world class, then they would take the barbecue. But they don't want mediocre, tough, dried out brisket. Ok, so I'm like, well, that's a good one. And then I had a guest telling me about I forget the name of the place, but it was a place that had like brisket tacos or brisket enchiladas, and they basically said both, they'll take both. Eric: There you go. I like that. Dave: Yeah, I am with you. If people want to get ahold of you, what's the best way to reach out? I know you're on LinkedIn. Are you very active on LinkedIn? Eric: Not super active on LinkedIn, but I'm very accessible Cell phone, email, office phone. You can always get ahold of me. Dave: What's the email address? Eric: So ericmiller M-I-L--LE-R X-M-E-X-I-Mgov gov. Dave: So eric.miller@xmexim.gov and if they want to just call you, what's the best number to reach you? Eric: at 713-306-7969 awesome. Dave: well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on here. This may be the most information dense episode I've ever done for an exporter. Usually it seems like we've got one or two good nuggets, but we may have a dozen takeaways, so thank you so much for making time out of your day and this has really been fun. And don't be surprised when this goes live if you don't have a few folks reaching out to you. Eric: I look forward to it. Thanks for having me. It's been an honor. Special Guest: Eric Miller.

This conversation-centric podcast episode focuses on the topics of business growth, leadership and overcoming challenging situations. Guests, Steve DHondt of PMS weretheguys.com, a successful brick paver company, and Eric Reno of Paramount Building Incorporated, a firm developed from scratch, share their own personal experiences and growth narratives. They discuss various strategies including dealing with public relations, employee happiness, excellence in customer service, strategic delegation, and optimal process development. The discussions also emphasize on adopting a positive mindset for business growth, the dynamic nature of service business economy and the value of a driven, collaborative team. They highlight their respective core business values and the important role of faith in their personal and professional lives.   "The common theme that I'm seeing again amongst these entrepreneurs that are growing their businesses and succeeding is they're extremely proactive. They're not sticking their head in the sand. They're not being a little bitch and wanting to run under, hide when things happen."  - Keith Kalfas Topics Covered: Business Growth Essentials: Overview of growth strategies and employee management. Entrepreneurial Journeys: Insight into Eric's evolution and Steve's challenges. Strategic Planning for Success: Vision, scalability, and the role of leadership. Learning and Networking: Power of networking, learning, and proactivity. Facing Business Challenges: Overcoming fear, leveraging processes, and adapting. Passion and Persistence: Building a YouTube channel, entrepreneurship joy, and drive. Mentorship and Support: Importance of mentorship, support, and teamwork. Balancing Professional Life: Challenges of scaling, personal-professional balance. Adapting to Unexpected Challenges: Resilience, adaptability, and customer satisfaction. Business Success Factors: Vision, mission, perseverance, and commitment to quality service.   Key Takeaways "It's going to be about, evolving your mind because brief story, like I was stuck, I don't want to say I was stuck at the 5 million revenue mark, but I was stuck at the 5 million,  um, place in my mind. Like I was personally stuck there. Like I wasn't growing as a person and I wasn't evolving as a person, though I wanted more. So it's more geared toward evolving the mind because everything that happens out here is a product of what happens up here.  So that's really what I focus in on, keep the distractions out as you're growing. And when you scale a business to scale, scaling a business is mental. It's not physical, right? So coming from me, somebody that's physically. In roofing and I'm out there getting it and I'm laying shingles and I'm running crews and doing what I want that's not going to get you to eight figures right up here. This is what's going to get you to eight figures. It's physically impossible with the amount of hours in a day to make more unless you do it with your mind and leverage.  " - Eric   "It's just the leaders. The leaders of our company are the ones that understand. It's shared with the whole vision, but we're seasonal, and a lot of my guys do end up going to Mexico for the winter. So I don't have as much contact with them. We do let them know we post things up. We make sure that, our core values are everywhere. Everything that we are about and what we're changing, from our five year plan and our 10 year plan and our, all those things. The guys are aware of what we're trying to do and the girls as well and as a company and we've implemented profit sharing every single month to every employee and it's always the same. It doesn't matter if you've been here for 30 or 20 years or you just started everybody gets the same profit sharing check. So it really has helped bring more people to my business as well where people have labor shortages. We had six new guys sign on, so we had six new guys sign on to our company, which that's huge. It's huge in our business especially six that not only worked out, they were fantastic or fantastic. " - Steve   Connect with Eric LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-reno-78471865/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/eric.reno.165/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/eric_reno/Website: https://paramountbuildinginc.com/our-team/ Connect with Steve LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-dhondt-534b23166Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/weretheguys/Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChx5v0dBiCB8UaGNfn4S4Ng/videos Website: https://www.weretheguys.com/about-us Connect with Keith Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/keithkalfas/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thelandscapingemployeetrap Website: https://www.keithkalfas.com/resources Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@keith-kalfas   Resources and Websites: 

Our guest is Eric Lamarre, a senior partner in our Boston office and coauthor of the new book, Rewired: The McKinsey Guide to Outcompeting in the Age of Digital and AI. Eric and his coauthors, fellow senior partners Kate Smaje and Rodney Zemmel, based their book on the results of more than 200 large-scale digital transformations, creating a detailed guide for companies seeking to outcompete in the age of digital and AI. They've found that to increase the odds of long-term success in a digital transformation, the C-suite must make fundamental changes to the company's talent, operating model, technology and data capabilities. In this episode, we speak to Eric about those changes and discuss how executives can leverage them to ensure that their digital transformation is a success. Related insights: Rewired: The McKinsey guide to outcompeting in the age of digital and AI The Wall Street Journal article mentioned by Eric: It's Time to Get Rid of the IT DepartmentRewired for value: Digital and AI transformations that work Rewired to outcompete Join our LinkedIn community of more than 90,000 members and follow us on Twitter at @McKStrategy.  Explore our collection of Inside the Strategy Room episode transcripts on McKinsey.com   Join 90,000 other members of our LinkedIn community: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/mckinsey-strategy-&-corporate-finance/See www.mckinsey.com/privacy-policy for privacy information

Our guest is Eric Lamarre, a senior partner in our Boston office and coauthor of the new book, Rewired: The McKinsey Guide to Outcompeting in the Age of Digital and AI. Eric and his coauthors, fellow senior partners Kate Smaje and Rodney Zemmel, based their book on the results of more than 200 large-scale digital transformations, creating a detailed guide for companies seeking to outcompete in the age of digital and AI. They've found that to increase the odds of long-term success in a digital transformation, the C-suite must make fundamental changes to the company's talent, operating model, technology and data capabilities. In this episode, we speak to Eric about those changes and discuss how executives can leverage them to ensure that their digital transformation is a success. Related insights: Rewired: The McKinsey guide to outcompeting in the age of digital and AI The Wall Street Journal article mentioned by Eric: It's Time to Get Rid of the IT DepartmentRewired for value: Digital and AI transformations that work Rewired to outcompete Join our LinkedIn community of more than 90,000 members and follow us on Twitter at @McKStrategy.  Explore our collection of Inside the Strategy Room episode transcripts on McKinsey.com   Join 90,000 other members of our LinkedIn community: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/mckinsey-strategy-&-corporate-finance/See www.mckinsey.com/privacy-policy for privacy information

Former BuzzFeed reporter Katie Notopoulos spent the first few days posting on Meta's Twitter copycat, Threads, as if she were the editor-in-chief of the new app. “As EIC, it's a lot of work! I'm personally curating the feed for users based on all of Meta's information on them to bring each person a hand-curated feed that I've approved,” Notopoulos posted on Threads. While Meta tolerated the ruse, the company censored one of her more roguish posts. “At Threads, our expectation is for all users to treat others with kindness and respect. This encompasses acknowledging the choice to adopt a Nazi lifestyle. We embrace a diverse community,” she trolled.Ultimately, Notopoulos announced that she had been fired from her role as editor-in-chief. I invited her on the show, along with Dead Cat podcast defector Tom Dotan, who abandoned our old podcast in favor of a gig at the Wall Street Journal. Together, we made sense of the Threads-Twitter rivalry. We talked on Friday so a few of our stats on Threads' growth might be outdated. Threads has since exceeded 100 million users and Elon Musk has proposed a “literal dick measuring contest” and called Zuckerberg a “cuck.” Otherwise, I think you'll find our conversation perfectly current. It's a lively episode. I posit that Threads will quickly become the Uber to Twitter's Lyft. I didn't just invite Notopoulos on the show because she has been a Threads troll and a the thorn in the side of Meta. She is famous for her extremely online, yet carefully reported pieces from her time at BuzzFeed. She wrote a piece titled, “Chuck E. Cheese Still Uses Floppy Disks To Make Its Rodent Mascot Dance — For Now.” And she revealed the real names of the Bored Apes founders. BuzzFeed is paying her for the next few months after the company shut down its news division. So she's had plenty of time to spend on Threads. Dotan once covered Snapchat obsessively and we spent many Dead Cat episodes talking about Facebook, so I thought this would be a fun episode to have him back on the show — even if the Journal has muzzled how wild he can be in his pronouncements. We concluded the show talking about a much more Newcomer-y topic. Dotan wrote last week about how AI had stemmed tech's downturn. He reported:The Nasdaq has risen 32% this year—the Dow Jones Industrial Average is up 3.4%—while Microsoft shares have climbed 41% and Nvidia shares have almost tripled on the back of optimism that AI will bolster their businesses.Companies that had been touting their cost-cutting and apologizing for hiring too many people in recent years have been adding to the excitement by broadcasting their AI ambitions. Of the S&P 500 companies with earnings conference calls from the middle of March to late May, 110 mentioned AI, according to FactSet. That is a record high and around three times the 10-year average.  Give it a listenHighlighted ExcerptsThe transcript has been edited for clarity.Eric: Will threads be bigger than Twitter? Will it be the Uber to Twitter's Lyft?Katie: I predict yes.Tom: Twitter in its current state? Not at its peak? Yeah, such a low bar.Katie: Twitter still has advantages over Threads, like anonymity and retaining large followings. [Instagram Head] Adam Mosseri recently mentioned that Threads won't be a place for news.Eric: Threads aims to be a “nice” platform, countering the mean-spiritedness associated with Elon Musk and promoting a friendlier environment. Do you think the personality and positioning of Facebook will play a significant role, or is it all about the product and Instagram's connection?Katie: It's a combination. Threads' success will come from being a product under Instagram, which many people don't realize is owned by Facebook. On the other hand, people are leaving Twitter because of Elon Musk's presence.Tom: Facebook has a history of copying features in response to perceived threats, such as stories. However, Twitter isn't a threat. This opportunistic move by Facebook. To launch Threads won't magically fix the limitations of text-based platforms. We're in an era of niche social media experiences, and reaching a billion users with this format is unlikely. It's unfair to hold that expectation. Nonetheless, with 70 million users already, it can be considered a success.Katie: The Instagram account provided a dictionary where a conversation is referred to as a thread. For example, I was reading some intriguing threads that Eric was discussing. However, an individual post is still called a post, and instead of a retweet, it's called a repost.Eric: What are your thoughts on what was happening there? I found it very strange that they were dictating the language they want people to use. I couldn't determine if they're worried people will start using terms like “tweet” and if they wanted to discourage that.Katie: I interpreted it similarly. People were genuinely asking, you know, what should we call them? Since they're not tweets, do we call them retweets? What should we call them? I think the worst-case scenario would be if people started jokingly referring to them as “threats,” which is probably not what they intended.Eric: People are really enjoying wordplay, and personally, I'm not a fan of that. There are posts about your followers or your thread count. It's like a new summer camp where everyone is trying to come up with the language that will dominate the platform.Katie: Absolutely. And it's important to remember that there are a lot more people signing up than they expected, maybe around 70 million or something. But most of these users aren't on Twitter and don't know anything about it. They're not comparing it to Twitter. It's mostly regular users, like 16-year-olds in Brazil, who are thinking, “Oh, a new platform? Where does this fit in with Instagram? Just tell me what to do.” The user base is incredibly diverse, which is why it's very straightforward in terms of understanding.Tom: Explain to me, though, why people who have never liked Twitter would suddenly join a Twitter copycat and find it useful. Twitter has been around for a while, and its mechanics and design haven't broadly appealed to more than 200-300 million users. So why now are they expecting people in Brazil, who have ignored Twitter for the first decade of its existence, to suddenly find “thread” compelling just because they can use their Instagram handle and easily sign up?Katie: Personally, as someone eager to test out new apps, I preordered it on iTunes so that it would be ready for download at exactly 7 pm. I was excited about it because I follow technology news and knew there was a new app coming out. But for most people, I don't think they heard about the app and actively went to the App Store to look for it. I assume that when most people opened Instagram, they received a prompt to click and experience the new threads. They were signed up right from inside the Instagram app. So, anyone who opened Instagram yesterday was directed to join the app. They might have thought, “I'm not sure what this is, but I like Instagram, so I'll give it a try.”Eric: It seems like there are a couple of factors at play. There's definitely a disdain for Elon Musk, particularly among reporters and the left, including myself. I feel like that revolt and the desire of that crowd to find a new home helped motivate this, which is amusing because those same individuals have been critical of Zuck over the past five years.Katie: I think it's a case of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend,” to a large extent. That seems to be the prevailing sentiment.Eric: Indeed. It's obviously Instagram's power to bring Instagram users to the new app. Additionally, there are people who believe in getting on a platform early and building followers. So it's like these three groups trying to coexist—the social media managers who want to grow their accounts in case it becomes the next big thing, the Twitter rebels, and the Instagram influencers who are being told that this is part of the app.Katie: I have another theory as well. When you sign up for the app, the feed is currently purely algorithmic, and it includes a lot of content from people you don't follow. There's probably a lot of enthusiasm from these big celebrities who haven't found success on TikTok and are holding onto Instagram as an essential platform for their careers. Fans and regular users are excited because they suddenly see celebrities who hadn't posted on Twitter for years.Eric: What are people's opinions on the algorithmic feed? I think the average person wants an algorithmic feed.Katie: I believe so too. Instagram has continued to have an algorithmic feed for years because multiple tests have shown that it's what people actually want.Katie: Another important factor to consider is the timing of the app's launch. Summer is the ideal season for such apps because teenagers are out of school and have more time to use their phones. The current success can be attributed to the high number of young users who are typically in school during other times of the year. While the app's popularity may decline in the fall, I don't think it will fade away like Clubhouse did.Tom: Additionally, Facebook can easily maintain the app without much effort. Even if it reaches its peak user base, let's say around 100 million, and then gradually declines to 50 or 60 million, it will still be manageable for Facebook to sustain it. The operating costs are likely low, mainly cloud computing expenses, and it might even serve as an ad platform. For Facebook, it could be a side project that requires minimal effort. If it also happens to cause some inconvenience for Elon Musk and the ongoing competition in Silicon Valley, then that's an added bonus. Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe

Former BuzzFeed reporter Katie Notopoulos spent the first few days posting on Meta's Twitter copycat, Threads, as if she were the editor-in-chief of the new app. “As EIC, it's a lot of work! I'm personally curating the feed for users based on all of Meta's information on them to bring each person a hand-curated feed that I've approved,” Notopoulos posted on Threads. While Meta tolerated the ruse, the company censored one of her more roguish posts. “At Threads, our expectation is for all users to treat others with kindness and respect. This encompasses acknowledging the choice to adopt a Nazi lifestyle. We embrace a diverse community,” she trolled.Ultimately, Notopoulos announced that she had been fired from her role as editor-in-chief. I invited her on the show, along with Dead Cat podcast defector Tom Dotan, who abandoned our old podcast in favor of a gig at the Wall Street Journal. Together, we made sense of the Threads-Twitter rivalry. We talked on Friday so a few of our stats on Threads' growth might be outdated. Threads has since exceeded 100 million users and Elon Musk has proposed a “literal dick measuring contest” and called Zuckerberg a “cuck.” Otherwise, I think you'll find our conversation perfectly current. It's a lively episode. I posit that Threads will quickly become the Uber to Twitter's Lyft. I didn't just invite Notopoulos on the show because she has been a Threads troll and a the thorn in the side of Meta. She is famous for her extremely online, yet carefully reported pieces from her time at BuzzFeed. She wrote a piece titled, “Chuck E. Cheese Still Uses Floppy Disks To Make Its Rodent Mascot Dance — For Now.” And she revealed the real names of the Bored Apes founders. BuzzFeed is paying her for the next few months after the company shut down its news division. So she's had plenty of time to spend on Threads. Dotan once covered Snapchat obsessively and we spent many Dead Cat episodes talking about Facebook, so I thought this would be a fun episode to have him back on the show — even if the Journal has muzzled how wild he can be in his pronouncements. We concluded the show talking about a much more Newcomer-y topic. Dotan wrote last week about how AI had stemmed tech's downturn. He reported:The Nasdaq has risen 32% this year—the Dow Jones Industrial Average is up 3.4%—while Microsoft shares have climbed 41% and Nvidia shares have almost tripled on the back of optimism that AI will bolster their businesses.Companies that had been touting their cost-cutting and apologizing for hiring too many people in recent years have been adding to the excitement by broadcasting their AI ambitions. Of the S&P 500 companies with earnings conference calls from the middle of March to late May, 110 mentioned AI, according to FactSet. That is a record high and around three times the 10-year average.  Give it a listenHighlighted ExcerptsThe transcript has been edited for clarity.Eric: Will threads be bigger than Twitter? Will it be the Uber to Twitter's Lyft?Katie: I predict yes.Tom: Twitter in its current state? Not at its peak? Yeah, such a low bar.Katie: Twitter still has advantages over Threads, like anonymity and retaining large followings. [Instagram Head] Adam Mosseri recently mentioned that Threads won't be a place for news.Eric: Threads aims to be a “nice” platform, countering the mean-spiritedness associated with Elon Musk and promoting a friendlier environment. Do you think the personality and positioning of Facebook will play a significant role, or is it all about the product and Instagram's connection?Katie: It's a combination. Threads' success will come from being a product under Instagram, which many people don't realize is owned by Facebook. On the other hand, people are leaving Twitter because of Elon Musk's presence.Tom: Facebook has a history of copying features in response to perceived threats, such as stories. However, Twitter isn't a threat. This opportunistic move by Facebook. To launch Threads won't magically fix the limitations of text-based platforms. We're in an era of niche social media experiences, and reaching a billion users with this format is unlikely. It's unfair to hold that expectation. Nonetheless, with 70 million users already, it can be considered a success.Katie: The Instagram account provided a dictionary where a conversation is referred to as a thread. For example, I was reading some intriguing threads that Eric was discussing. However, an individual post is still called a post, and instead of a retweet, it's called a repost.Eric: What are your thoughts on what was happening there? I found it very strange that they were dictating the language they want people to use. I couldn't determine if they're worried people will start using terms like “tweet” and if they wanted to discourage that.Katie: I interpreted it similarly. People were genuinely asking, you know, what should we call them? Since they're not tweets, do we call them retweets? What should we call them? I think the worst-case scenario would be if people started jokingly referring to them as “threats,” which is probably not what they intended.Eric: People are really enjoying wordplay, and personally, I'm not a fan of that. There are posts about your followers or your thread count. It's like a new summer camp where everyone is trying to come up with the language that will dominate the platform.Katie: Absolutely. And it's important to remember that there are a lot more people signing up than they expected, maybe around 70 million or something. But most of these users aren't on Twitter and don't know anything about it. They're not comparing it to Twitter. It's mostly regular users, like 16-year-olds in Brazil, who are thinking, “Oh, a new platform? Where does this fit in with Instagram? Just tell me what to do.” The user base is incredibly diverse, which is why it's very straightforward in terms of understanding.Tom: Explain to me, though, why people who have never liked Twitter would suddenly join a Twitter copycat and find it useful. Twitter has been around for a while, and its mechanics and design haven't broadly appealed to more than 200-300 million users. So why now are they expecting people in Brazil, who have ignored Twitter for the first decade of its existence, to suddenly find “thread” compelling just because they can use their Instagram handle and easily sign up?Katie: Personally, as someone eager to test out new apps, I preordered it on iTunes so that it would be ready for download at exactly 7 pm. I was excited about it because I follow technology news and knew there was a new app coming out. But for most people, I don't think they heard about the app and actively went to the App Store to look for it. I assume that when most people opened Instagram, they received a prompt to click and experience the new threads. They were signed up right from inside the Instagram app. So, anyone who opened Instagram yesterday was directed to join the app. They might have thought, “I'm not sure what this is, but I like Instagram, so I'll give it a try.”Eric: It seems like there are a couple of factors at play. There's definitely a disdain for Elon Musk, particularly among reporters and the left, including myself. I feel like that revolt and the desire of that crowd to find a new home helped motivate this, which is amusing because those same individuals have been critical of Zuck over the past five years.Katie: I think it's a case of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend,” to a large extent. That seems to be the prevailing sentiment.Eric: Indeed. It's obviously Instagram's power to bring Instagram users to the new app. Additionally, there are people who believe in getting on a platform early and building followers. So it's like these three groups trying to coexist—the social media managers who want to grow their accounts in case it becomes the next big thing, the Twitter rebels, and the Instagram influencers who are being told that this is part of the app.Katie: I have another theory as well. When you sign up for the app, the feed is currently purely algorithmic, and it includes a lot of content from people you don't follow. There's probably a lot of enthusiasm from these big celebrities who haven't found success on TikTok and are holding onto Instagram as an essential platform for their careers. Fans and regular users are excited because they suddenly see celebrities who hadn't posted on Twitter for years.Eric: What are people's opinions on the algorithmic feed? I think the average person wants an algorithmic feed.Katie: I believe so too. Instagram has continued to have an algorithmic feed for years because multiple tests have shown that it's what people actually want.Katie: Another important factor to consider is the timing of the app's launch. Summer is the ideal season for such apps because teenagers are out of school and have more time to use their phones. The current success can be attributed to the high number of young users who are typically in school during other times of the year. While the app's popularity may decline in the fall, I don't think it will fade away like Clubhouse did.Tom: Additionally, Facebook can easily maintain the app without much effort. Even if it reaches its peak user base, let's say around 100 million, and then gradually declines to 50 or 60 million, it will still be manageable for Facebook to sustain it. The operating costs are likely low, mainly cloud computing expenses, and it might even serve as an ad platform. For Facebook, it could be a side project that requires minimal effort. If it also happens to cause some inconvenience for Elon Musk and the ongoing competition in Silicon Valley, then that's an added bonus. Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe

What you'll learn in this episode:   The difference between jadeite and nephrite, and why both are known as jade Why Chinese artisans have chosen to carve jade for thousands of years Why jade can be purchased at dramatically different price points How to spot a pseudo jade that has been dyed or polymer treated Why a healthy sense of skepticism is the most important thing a new jade collector can have   About Eric Hoffman   Eric Hoffman is an aficionado of Chinese jades for over 40 years. He is the owner and operator of Far East Gallery, which is dedicated to lovers of Chinese arts, antiques, antiquities, and—most especially—jades and snuff bottles. A member of the worldwide organizations Friends of Jade and the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, jade consultant to the Chinese Cultural Relics Association, and contributing editor to Adornment magazine, Prof. Hoffman has written many articles and reviews on this fascinating subject.   Additional Resources: Website Introductory Articles on Jade: http://hoffmanjade.com/Adornment_Jade.pdf https://asianart.com/articles/hoffman/index.html   Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript: Jade is a popular gemstone that even the most avid jewelry collectors often know little about. Much of the confusion stems from the fact that two distinct stones share the same name. Enter Eric Hoffman, a jade dealer and author who is an expert on identifying different types of jade. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about jadeite jade vs. nephrite jade; why jade can either be extremely valuable or basically worthless; and how new collectors can find quality pieces. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Eric J. Hoffman, who's extremely knowledgeable about jade. Eric is the owner of Far East Gallery and HoffmanJade.com. He is a seller and a buyer, and he knows a lot about what makes jade valuable. He's also an author. Welcome back.    But you said there's a white jade that's a nephrite, and then there's another kind of white jade that's a jadeite, right?   Eric: That's right. When you're talking about white jade, it makes a big difference whether it's nephrite or jadeite. White nephrite is very desirable. White jadeite is kind of a waste material. In fact, it's often dyed or polymer-treated to make it look like something it's not.   Sharon: When you say something it's not, what do you mean? Is it to try and fool people? Why do carvers value white jade so much?   Eric: Again, you have to distinguish between the two types of white jade. The nephrite is desirable to carvers because it can be carved thin and it's not going to break on them while they're carving. The jadeite is generally valued for jewelry, and people don't want a white stone ring. They want the nice, imperial green, apple green jadeite. Back in the late 80s, around 1989, someone figured out how to polymer treat and dye white jadeite to make it look like the imperial green, desirable jadeite.   Sharon: Wow, there's a lot to learn when it comes to stone. The white nephrite that's called jade, when it comes to carving, it's harder to carve. Am I right?   Eric: All carving is hard, but at least the nephrite's not going to break on you. It's not going to crumble. It's not going to cleave like some minerals like fluorite, for example, might do. There are carvings in jadeite as well. It's a little less tough and a little bit harder.   Sharon: But jadeite is what was in Burma. Maybe I'm getting confused. I'm trying to keep it straight. When you talk about the Chinese, that's more of the nephrite jade, and when you talk about the Burmese, that's more of the jadeite, right?    Eric: In terms of where they come from, but there's not much of an industry in Burma carving jadeite. The jadeite comes out of the ground in Burma, and it goes immediately to China where it is made into jewelry and carvings and artifacts and so forth.   Sharon: I'm just getting confused. If somebody says to me, “This is a jade bracelet,” and it's green, what do I ask? Where it came from, or is it nephrite or jadeite? What do I ask?   Eric: The question would be is it nephrite or jadeite. The answer will probably come back that it's jadeite. When you see jade bangle bracelets, for example, they're usually but not always jadeite. Usually if it's a vivid apple green, it's probably jadeite. If it's a darker grayish green, it's probably nephrite.   Sharon: What if it's white? I'm thinking of a hand-made bangle. If they say it's white jade, is that just treated jadeite?   Eric: They would probably not stop at white. They would try to dye it or polymer treat it to try to fool you into thinking it's a more valuable type of jade.   Sharon: So, when somebody says to me, “This is jade,” they really mean jadeite, right? There's nephrite, but most things are jadeite. I'm just trying to understand this.   Eric: It's a complicated subject for sure. Most of the jewelry, but not all that you encounter, will be jadeite. There is nephrite jewelry, but it's probably 10 to one in favor of jadeite.   Sharon: When I was talking to Elyse, she was saying that most of the time the carvings are too large to be used for jewelry, as you were saying, but there are smaller things such as beads and things like that. Is that jade jadeite? Why are they made into small items?   Eric: Jade is found in small quantities, so that's one thing that limits the size. It's costly material, at least the higher grades of jadeite. That would be another thing that limits the size.    Sharon: What would icy jade be? Tell us about icy jade.   Eric: That's another interesting subject. When you're judging jadeite, you're looking at the color. You look at what's called the texture, which is the fineness of the individual, microscopic crystals. It affects the kind of polish the jade can take. You look at the clarity. You'd like to find jade that doesn't have inclusions or black spots in it. There's also something called translucence. As jade becomes more and more translucent, you get to where you can almost read text through it. That's called icy jade.   Sharon: Do you look at whether it's jade or icy jade? Do you look at it under a microscope to decide if you're going to buy it or judge it?   Eric: No, you can see right away that it's an example of icy jade, but it's fairly rare material. It didn't used to be worth anything particularly more than other jades until Christie's, some years ago in a marketing coup, changed the name from water jade to icy jade.   Sharon: Water jade to icy jade.   Eric: And it took off. In the many pieces I've handled over the decades, I only have one piece of icy jade.   Sharon: That's you've handled or that you would be willing to part with?   Eric: Both.    Sharon: Putting icy jade aside, when you evaluate a piece of jade, do you look under a microscope at all? Is that part of your process? I don't know what you look for.   Eric: Generally, no. Generally, a 10x loupe is about all you need to evaluate jade. For example, with a 10x loupe, you can look and see if dye is seeping into the little boundaries between regions on jadeite. The other instrument that is sometimes useful would be a refractometer, which is occasionally brought into play to distinguish between a nephrite and a jadeite.   Sharon: Somebody brought my mother a gift back from China, and she said it was jade. Would that have been an imitation jade? I don't know what she paid for it. I don't remember. Was it a jade jadeite versus—I mean, nephrite doesn't sound like it's in the picture.   Eric: It could have been any one of those. There are some fairly simple tests of hardness and specific gravity and so forth that you can run to tell what you're looking at.   Sharon: As a collector and, as you can tell very obviously, somebody who knows nothing about jade or nephrite or Mawsitsit or icy jade, what would you say to a collector just starting out? What should they look for? What should they have with them? I got rid of my refractometer a long time ago. I said, “Forget it. I never use it.” What would they do with it?   Eric: The one thing you should always have with you is a 10x loupe. The other thing you should always have with you is a healthy sense of skepticism. I assume that any ancient jade I'm shown is a brand-new fake until proven otherwise. When you're shown a gorgeous piece of jade jewelry, you should be a little skeptical as to whether it's natural or has been treated in some way.   Sharon: Treated meaning coated with color to make it look a different color or a stronger color?   Eric: There have been examples of coating, but I was really referring to was what started back in 1989, with the polymer treatment of pretty much worthless white jadeite.   Sharon: How would I know? How would a collector know?   Eric: It's a problem. At a certain price level, you would go to the GIA. They would look at your piece with an infrared spectrometer and tell you yes or no, whether it's natural or colored or had been treated. But this test, of course, costs a few hundred dollars, so you're probably up in the $20,000-$30,000 price range before it becomes worthwhile doing that.    Sharon: If you're buying a less expensive piece that's not a $20,000 piece, what would you say a collector should look for? Should we look for translucency? If they tell me something is old, how do I know?   Eric: If you don't have a $100,000 spectrometer laying around in your basement, you should probably look for a dealer you can trust who does have access to one, either directly or through a lab like GIA.   Sharon: I can tell you're on the East Coast if you say a basement, because who knows what a basement is out here? In fact, I did see a house with a basement, and I was floored. I thought a house with a basement in Los Angeles—   Eric: No basements in Los Angeles?   Sharon: No basements out here, or maybe just a few old, old houses. So, what attracts you? Do you like the color of the jade you buy? Whatever you put on your site, do you like it?   Eric: Yes, the colors of nephrite are more subdued and softer and more subtle, but I find them attractive. The colors of jadeite are brighter and a more vivid green. There's also lavender, which is very attractive. So, yes, the color is one thing, and the extreme toughness of nephrite, what it lets carvers accomplish.   Sharon: If something is lavender, depending on price range, you could add polymers to make it lavender? Is it nephrite or would that be jadeite, or both?   Eric: That is jadeite, yes. Unfortunately, lavender is faked as well. Polymer-treated lavender does exist. It's usually so garish looking that you can dismiss it right out of hand, but a really good imitation can be a little harder to tell. Once again, you rely on an infrared spectrometer to tell the difference.   Sharon: Do you have one lying around your house?    Eric: I have no infrared spectrometer.   Sharon: In the thousands of years they've been carving jade, whether it's in China or Burma or wherever, is there natural lavender jade? What are the natural colors?   Eric: Oh yes, there is natural lavender. It's a softer, more subtle lavender. It comes from Burma along with the other jades, so it does exist.   Sharon: Are there any other colors? There's green; there's white; there's lavender. There are different shades of green, but what else? Is that it for all the jades?   Eric: There is a red. There's a reddish brown, russet and black.   Sharon: And they all come from Burma and then they're shipped off to China? Or are they in China?   Eric: The jade is all from Burma and it's almost universally carved in China.   Sharon: So, if somebody shows me a piece—I keep going back to this example of a bangle bracelet—and somebody says it's from China, it's really been dug out of the ground in Burma and shipped off to China to be made into something. Is that what you're saying?   Eric: That's correct. If it's jadeite, the raw material came from northern Burma and the work was almost certainly done in China.   Sharon: O.K. You must really take people aback when you start asking them questions. They probably think you're just another person who doesn't know anything about jade.   Eric: Once again, you want to find a dealer you have some faith in.   Sharon: Do you think you have those dealers? Because you're a dealer, do you think the people you get your material and your carved objects from, are they trustworthy? If they call you and say, “Hey, do I have a deal for you,” do you say, “O.K., let me hear about it”?   Eric: There are dealers I buy from and there are dealers I sell to. I also sell jade books, books about jade.   Sharon: Tell us about some of the things you're written about or the names of the books.   Eric: At one point, I might have been the number one seller of jade books in the world. I've written about that. I've sent a lot of the best ones to China. Even though the shipping cost can be horrendous for a big, heavy book, it doesn't seem to bother anybody in China to pay it.   Sharon: You must have clients from all over the world.   Eric: Yeah, I've probably shipped to about 20 to 30 countries.   Sharon: Besides the books, who contacts you from all over the world to say, “Hey, I saw this object on your site”?   Eric: I get that all the time, people showing pictures. Invariably it's imitation ancient jades.    Sharon: How about when they want to buy something from you? Do they come from all over the world?   Eric: I ship all over.    Sharon: Tell us what you've written about. If you're the number one seller, people really trust what you have to say about jade. Are you writing from a mineral perspective for what to look for? What are you telling them? What are you writing about in the books?    Eric: As an engineer, it's the technical aspect I appreciate the most. Telling jade from pseudo jade has been a side specialty.   Sharon: I shouldn't send my bracelet from the swap meet to you because I should just assume it's pseudo jade. That's what you're saying, right?   Eric: It pays to have a healthy sense of skepticism. I assume everything is fake until proven otherwise.   Sharon: How would somebody prove otherwise to you? Because it's old and they're brushing the dirt off of it? How would they prove it?   Eric: Perhaps the most reliable thing in dealing with ancient jades is to take a close look at the tooling techniques and looking for modern toolmarks, which would not have been used a thousand plus years ago.   Sharon: Do you often find when you're evaluating a piece for you to buy to resell, will someone tell you, “Oh, this is made with old tools,” and then you'll find a modern tool mark and hand it back?   Eric: There's no handing back. A lot of times, you have to buy in a dark, dingy corner, no recourse, no refund, cash only.   Sharon: I guess I'm thinking about a big show or something like that. You're saying they pull you aside. Do they open their raincoat or something?   Eric: At a big show, of course, the vetting has already been done for you. But that's reflected in the very high prices, so it's hard to buy anything at a big show for resale.    Sharon: As a collector, if we were going to buy or evaluate a piece and we don't have our handy refractometer with us, what should we be doing in terms of the sense of skepticism? It's like how on Antiques Roadshow you see people all the time who believe they have pre-Columbian artifacts and they're proven to be fake. Should we look for contemporary toolmarks? Is that one tell?   Eric: You've opened another new subject, and that's pre-Columbian jade. Jade was carved in Central America roughly about the time of the Chinese Zhou Dynasty. In fact, there's some thought that perhaps there was communication between China and the jade carvers in Central America because a lot of the motifs are the same. But in Central America, at that time, they were using string and abrasives and stone files, not metal tools.   Sharon: When was this?   Eric: This would have been maybe 500 to 1,000 years ago.    Sharon: Not that long ago, really, when you compare it to China or even other places in the world.   Eric: That's right. For the first several thousand years, China carved with the same kinds of tools before they had metals.   Sharon: That's really interesting. Tell us a bit more about when we should come to a person like you, what we'll find in the books and chapters you've coauthored. Are we only going to find technical stuff, or are we going to find history? Are we going to find anything else?   Eric: There are jade books that cover all of that. Unfortunately, they're not all in the same book. The book I worked on most recently was by Richard Hughes in Bangkok. It's a big, heavy book. It's costs $200 just to mail it from Bangkok to the United States. It's not the kind of investment everybody will make, and it does focus on the gemology aspects of both nephrite and jadeite.    Sharon: When are you going to be writing your book about history? You say there's not a book that encompasses it all. Forget the minerology, but the history, the carving, how it's done. When are you going to write it?   Eric: I don't think you should wait for it. I've been assembling notes for about 20 years. Elyse asks that same question about once a week.   Sharon: So, I should come back to you in 10, 15 years?   Eric: 10 years would be good.   Sharon: For somebody like me, it would be an easier book to write because I don't know the technical stuff. The history and the carving would be interesting and fast to write.    Eric: While you're waiting the 10 years, there is actually a book that was written called “Jade Lore.” I'm not sure when it was written; possibly in the 40s. That does cover, in a very readable way, a lot of the history along with a little bit of the technical.   Sharon: But isn't it out of print because it's been so long?   Eric: It's out of print, but you can find copies. It was written by a journalist who was on-site in China around the time the Qing Dynasty was falling apart, and a lot of these pieces were coming onto the market.   Sharon: When was that? How long ago?   Eric: The Qing Dynasty fell in 1911, 1912. I think this book was written either in the 30s or 40s. It was written by somebody who really knew how to write a lively story.   Sharon: Where have you been? If you're saying you look at these objects or jewels, have you been to some of the places and seen them directly, or is it mostly when somebody brings you into a dark corner?   Eric: I've been to Taiwan. I have not been to mainland China. As I mentioned earlier, the Chinese really want to repatriate and bring back into the country the best jades as well as jade books. To get pieces of jade now, you pretty much have to stumble across American collections or European collections.   Sharon: I think that's true of other pieces too. It seems that the Chinese are very interested in repatriating a lot of older jewelry. We're being told they're the ones who drive the prices up. Is that also true in jade?   Eric: Oh, absolutely. In fact, there's a book on that subject as well.    Sharon: Which is?   Eric: On the whole subject of repatriating these pieces back into China.    Sharon: What do people do with them when they have them back in China?   Eric: What do they do with them in China?   Sharon: Yeah.   Eric: Some of those will end up in museums in China. Others end up in private collections of millionaires.   Sharon: Eric, I see Elyse in the corner there. You have to go pack your bags so you can get ready for your next trip to Myanmar or mainland China. You've been to Taiwan. Thank you very much for being with us today.    Eric: It's a pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.   Sharon: It's been great. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   The difference between jadeite and nephrite, and why both are known as jade Why Chinese artisans have chosen to carve jade for thousands of years Why jade can be purchased at dramatically different price points How to spot a pseudo jade that has been dyed or polymer treated Why a healthy sense of skepticism is the most important thing a new jade collector can have   About Eric Hoffman   Eric Hoffman is an aficionado of Chinese jades for over 40 years. He is the owner and operator of Far East Gallery, which is dedicated to lovers of Chinese arts, antiques, antiquities, and—most especially—jades and snuff bottles. A member of the worldwide organizations Friends of Jade and the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, jade consultant to the Chinese Cultural Relics Association, and contributing editor to Adornment magazine, Prof. Hoffman has written many articles and reviews on this fascinating subject.   Additional Resources: Website Facebook Introductory Articles on Jade: http://hoffmanjade.com/Adornment_Jade.pdf https://asianart.com/articles/hoffman/index.html   Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript: Jade is a popular gemstone that even the most avid jewelry collectors often know little about. Much of the confusion stems from the fact that two distinct stones share the same name. Enter Eric Hoffman, a jade dealer and author who is an expert on identifying different types of jade. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about jadeite jade vs. nephrite jade; why jade can either be extremely valuable or basically worthless; and how new collectors can find quality pieces. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    Today my guest is Eric J. Hoffman, who's extremely knowledgeable about jade. Eric is the owner of Far East Gallery and HoffmanJade.com. He is both a seller and a buyer, and he knows a lot about what makes jade valuable. He's also an author who has written about jade. I don't know about you, but I know nothing about jade. So, Eric is going to tell us about his path, tell us about jade, and educate us about collecting the gem. Eric, welcome to the program.   Eric: Thank you for inviting me to talk about my favorite subject.   Sharon: Thanks for being here. Tell us about your journey. I know you didn't start out in jade. You started out in a different field, but how did you get into jade?   Eric: I definitely did not start out in jade. Around 1970, I was on the bench designing communication circuits for satellites. My technician was an amateur minerologist, a rockhound, and he dragged me off one weekend to a gem show in Pennsylvania. At the show, they had a gem-carving contest. This was pretty much the first time I realized you could carve gemstones.    The winner of the contest was a gorgeous cat sitting on its haunches, about six or seven inches tall, carved out of tiger eye. It was on a platform that was rotating under a spotlight, so you got all the play of color off the tiger eye. It was an incredible thing to see, and it really got me interested in carved gemstones. It didn't take too long to realize the best stone to carve was jade, and the best carvers at carving jade were the Chinese. They've been at it for 8,000 years. That's how I got started.   Sharon: Tell us about jade. You mentioned you have a gallery and that you're a dealer. I have a lot to ask you. Tell us a little about jade itself.   Eric: Jade is a very interesting gemstone. There are a lot of gemstones that go by multiple names, but I think jade is the only example where two different stones go by the same name, jade. There's nephrite jade and there's jadeite jade. Both of those are carved. The jadeite is more commonly seen in jewelry and the nephrite is more commonly seen in carvings and artifacts.   Sharon: So when I hear or see something about nephrite, it's jade, no matter what you're saying.   Eric: That's right. Both nephrite and jadeite are properly called jade. There are a lot of jade imitators around that are not jade, but those two stones are.    Sharon: What are the differences between nephrite and jadeite? When I read about jadeite, I don't know the difference. Is that jadeite is or is it jade?    Eric: Nephrite jade is the historically first jade. It's the jade that has been carved for 8,000 years by the Chinese. It's a calcium magnesium silicate, and the thing that makes it unique is that it's the toughest of all the stones. It's the hardest to break of all the stones.    Jadeite, which has very similar properties, is a sodium aluminum silicate. It's a different stone. In fact, both of these stones are rocks. Technically they're mixtures of minerals, but we call them rocks. The thing that makes nephrite so tough is its fibrous structure that's matted together, like the fibers in the felt in a felt hat, which makes it extremely difficult to break and allows carvers to work it very thin.   Sharon: Is white jade nephrite? What is white jade? Where does jade come from? It's in the ground, but is it in the same place in the ground? Does somebody do something with it afterward? Do they add a chemical or something?   Eric: They're found in very different regions. Actually, they're found all over the world, but most commonly the nephrite that the Chinese were using, at least for the past 1,000 years or so, has come from a region in western China called Hotan. The jade you're likely to encounter in jewelry is jadeite. It comes from the northern part of Burma, and it was only in the late 1700s that it became commonly seen in China.   Sharon: When you say it's been carved for thousands of years in China, the nephrite jade that's in the Hotan region, what was it about this stone that attracted carvers and kept it going for so long?   Eric: The initial thing that attracted the Chinese carvers 8,000 years ago—this was even before metals came into common use in China—was the extreme toughness of jade. It could be used for hammers, axes, adzes, chisels, tools, weapons. It was like the high-tech material of its day 8,000 years ago.   Sharon: When you say that other people are carvers, I think of objects. Was it made into objects also?   Eric: It started out being made into functional objects, tools and then weapons. But it was in such high regard that it soon became kind of a kingly material used in the royal court, and it started to pick up significance other than being a practical material.    Sharon: When people started to want jade jewelry, they moved to the other kind, jadeite.    Eric: The jewelry that was used in the ancient days is not something we would probably wear today. They tend to be more like plaques worn from robes, maybe suspended from a belt. Around the late 1700s China got control of the northern part of Burma, which was a warlike tribal area, and that's where jadeite is found. Jadeite had brighter, more attractive colors than nephrite, so it immediately caught on for jewelry in China.   Sharon: Tell us about your business with both kinds of jade, I presume. Will people pay more for the nephrite from your gallery? Will you pay more knowing you can resell it for more?   Eric: I didn't intend to get into business. What happens if you're a collector is you always want some particular object, so you buy the first one that comes by. Then a better one comes along maybe a year or two later, and now you're struck with two of them. I'm constantly selling the extras and using any proceeds to acquire new items.    Jade can be a very expensive stone. We normally think of jade lumped in with the semiprecious stones, but in the highest grade, jadeite and red diamonds are the two most expensive, valuable gemstones. An extreme example of that would be the famous Barbara Hutton jade necklace, which is 27 spherical beads of jadeite. It sold a few years ago at auction for $27 million, $1 million per bead.   Sharon: Wow! Which is stronger? Are they both as strong, the jadeite and the nephrite? Can you throw both of them against a wall?    Eric: Nephrite is the tougher stone by a little bit. As I said, it's the toughest of all the stones. In fact, it may be toughest natural substance in the world. I'm not certain about that, but it's certainly the toughest of the stones, the hardest to break. Jadeite is a little less tough but a little bit harder, so it makes a better ring stone, for example.   Sharon: How long ago did you decide to start an online gallery, Far East Gallery and HoffmanJade.com? You've coauthored books about jade. How long ago did your collecting become more of a business?   Eric: Far East Gallery goes all the way back to the early 70s, which precedes the world wide web and the internet. As soon as the web arrived, I started a web-based business, which is worldwide at this point.   Sharon: You said there was something you had planned for online, another web page or more information.   Eric: Just a few days ago, in fact, I added a page on jade jewelry. This was at the urging of my wife, the jewelry historian.   Sharon: That's Elyse Karlin, I should say.   Eric: Elyse Karlin, whose computer I'm using right now. Other than that, the website consists of jade objects, some of which can be used for jewelry and snuff bottles, which is another side interest of mine.   Sharon: When I see a piece of jewelry and the person I'm buying it from says it's jade, should I ask if it's nephrite or jadeite? Should I assume it's jadeite or nephrite? I don't know what I should do.   Eric: It always pays to ask. If it's a carving, it could be either. If it's jewelry, it's probably jadeite, but there is also nephrite jewelry.    Sharon: I think I told you that I was in Santa Fe, New Mexico a few years ago before Covid, and somebody was trying to sell me Mawsitsit earrings. I had never heard of Mawsitsit. They told me it was a very unusual kind of jade and it was going to overtake jade in a sense. Since I knew nothing about it, I didn't know if they were giving me a line. Tell us about Mawsitsit.   Eric: If it was a good price, you probably should have bought them. Mawsitsit is a very interesting stone. It's kind of a cousin of jadeite. It has a lot of jadeite in it, but also some other components such as kosmochlor and other minerals. It's found in only one tiny, little region in Burma. It's sort of a vivid green with black streaking through it.    Sharon: If I remember—this was years ago— it was sort of black with blue and green. Is Mawsitsit something special? If I talked to a person who really knows jade and I say Mawsitsit, do they know what I'm talking about?   Eric: I would say probably yes. It's a desirable stone in its own right, although it is technically not jade. It has a lot of jadeite in it.   Sharon: I think it's the first and only time I have ever encountered this stone. When you say it's harder than any known natural substance, is it harder than diamonds? You usually think of diamonds as the hardest thing there is.   Eric: Actually, what I said is it's tougher, which means it's harder to break, but it's not especially hard. Hardness is the resistance to scratching, and of course diamond is at the very top of the scale. Nephrite comes in at about a 6.5 on the Mohs scale, which means it's just barely good enough to make a good ring stone and not get scratched up.   Sharon: You see both kinds, the jadeite and the nephrite, in the ground. Diamonds are cubic. Are they cubic? I can't remember. Shows you what I know. What form is it? Is it in squares or cubes?   Eric: Jadeite is usually mined out of the ground mostly in northern Burma. The nephrite forms up in the mountains, at least for the past thousand years. If you go back 7,000 or 8,000 years, there were sources of nephrite in China itself. But for the past few thousand years, it forms up in the mountains, tumbles down the mountains in the course of time, and bounces down the rivers and gets rounded off into pebbles or cobbles that are plucked out of the rivers in Hotan one at a time.   Sharon: 8,000 years ago in China, they would go up and mine this nephrite, and today they just pick it up when it comes down the mountain? Is that what you're saying?   Eric: They were always picking it out of the rivers because river jade, or alluvial jade, is more desirable than mountain jade. But because jade is so tough, the things they have to do to wrench it from the mountain are so destructive to the jade that it puts cracks through it and creates all kinds of problems for the carver.   Sharon: Tell us about your business today. Do people call you and say, “I have this carving or this piece of jade from a thousand years ago. Are you interested?” Tell us what you would do when you encounter that.   Eric: That does happen sometimes. Pretty much all of my customers come via the website, and we have discussions back and forth by email until finally a sale is made. It is very hard to evaluate ancient pieces from pictures or jpgs alone, particularly so since there is quite an active industry in China cranking out fakes.   Sharon: Is there an industrial use for jade?   Eric: Not that I can think of. It seems to me that it would make a good bearing material for things like ship propellers, but as far as I know, it's never been used in that regard.    Sharon: So, you have the opportunity to touch an object or get your hands on it to see if it's an antique or not. What do you do when somebody from China contacts you and says, “I like the piece you have on your site”? What do you do?   Eric: Oddly enough, I send a lot of jade back to China. They're very interested in repatriating old pieces, so when I get them, a lot of it goes back to China where it started out.   Sharon: But you have the opportunity to see if it was actually an older piece as opposed to a fake.   Eric: Unfortunately, there's no scientific way to date a piece of jade, so it does come down to my experience and opinion and the opinions of others. There are some scientific tests for other kinds of antiques like ceramics, but not for jade.    Sharon: Can you tell us about the articles you've authored? You've coauthored two articles that are in very well-known books. There's a book about to come out and one book that has already come out and seems to be very well-regarded. Can you tell us about those?   Eric: One of the things I love to talk about is jade versus pseudo jade. Jade has so many different imitators, and learning to distinguish one from the other is a main interest of mine. The articles in the books go into that. The first three jades I bought when I was starting out in the early 1970s were not jade. I made my mistakes early. I guess as Elyse says, in jewelry, if you're not making mistakes, you're not buying enough jewelry.    Sharon: So, that means I should go out and buy more then. How did you find out they were pseudo? Did somebody tell you?   Eric: No, that would be too simple. You can run some fairly easy tests, such as hardness testing and specific gravity or density testing. That helps rule out many of the pseudo jades.   Sharon: What is it that attracts you? Why jade? Why not another stone? You saw the tiger eye and fell in love with it. Why didn't you just keep all the tiger eye?   Eric: There are a lot of wonderful carvings done in tiger eye, which is a chalcedony. It's a little bit harder than jade. It's nowhere near as tough as jade, so it cannot be carved as finely and thinly. You can't do the various things that are done with the jade material because of its extreme toughness.   Sharon: Is it because you thought, “I have to get it back to Los Angeles. It's easier. It's not going to break”? Is that why you brought that to Los Angeles? I guess I still don't have an answer to why jade.   Eric: I guess the answer to that is that I've always been interested in the Chinese decorative arts, and when it comes to carving, the Chinese always pick jade. They have carved other stones along the way, but jade is always at the top of the heap.    Sharon: Is that because there's a lot more jade in China? I guess I think of different things, not so much the stones, when it comes to China.   Eric: No, there are a lot more other kinds of stones in China than jade. Jade is not particularly rare in the average grades, but it's more uncommon than the jade imitators.   Sharon: But you said it's not in the lower grades or lower echelons. It's not as expensive or as valued. It's the white jade that's valued by carvers.   Eric: White jade is an interesting subject. In the case of nephrite, white jade is very desirable and very much in fashion right now. A particular kind of white jade called mutton fat jade is highly sought out and very expensive. Now, when you switch to the other jade, jadeite, white jade is almost worthless. In fact, it wasn't too long ago that white jade in Burma was crushed and used as a road fill. That's how little was thought about it. Yet that same stone in its very highest grade formed those million-dollar bead necklaces. I don't think there's any other stone that has such a wide range of value.    Sharon: It was used to be crushed for roads at the lower end, and at the higher end, it was used in very expensive jewelry. That's what you're saying?   Eric: At the highest end, you have the Barbara Hutton necklace at $1 million per bead. At the lowest end, it was crushed and used for driveways and road fill. It's the same stone, jadeite.    Sharon: But you said there's a white jade that's a nephrite, and then there's another kind of white jade that's a jadeite, right?   Eric: That's right. When you're talking about white jade, it makes a big difference whether it's nephrite or jadeite.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to the JewelryJourney.com to check them out.

What you'll learn in this episode: The difference between search engine marketing (SEM) and search engine optimization (SEO), and why SEO is a worthwhile investment even if it takes time to see results Why Google's Local Services Ads give you the most bang for your buck if you're investing in SEM Why quality, original content and a great user experience are the keys to ranking on the first page of Google When it makes sense to pay for pay-per-click and social media ads How your firm's intake process and in-person service affect online rankings About Eric Bersano Eric Bersano has been deeply involved in online legal marketing since 2006. He is the VP of Business Development at Market My Market, a digital marketing agency that helps businesses generate new clients by implementing the right systems and strategies. Depending on a law firm's goals, Eric ensures the best marketing channel and modalities are implemented, including search engine optimization, pay-per-click advertising, and TV and radio. His focus on the legal space gives Eric the network to utilize the most talented designers, programmers, and marketers in the country. His clients maintain very high rankings for competitive online searches at the city, state, and national levels. Transcript: The online marketing landscape is so competitive that it almost seems pointless to put much effort into SEO. Why try to compete with the firms that rank highest on Google? But according to Eric Bersano, Vice President of Business Development for Market My Market, that belief is misguided. Not only can the top law firms on Google get knocked off their number one spots, it happens quite often. Eric joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about the paid and organic campaign options available through Google; why you should think of your website like a book in a library; and when paid search and social media ads can pay off for your firm. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Welcome to the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Eric Bersano, Vice President of Business Development for Market My Market. Eric has been in the legal marketing space since 2006 and has seen a lot of changes. Today, we'll hear all about the evolution of legal marketing and its importance to the legal marketing community, as well as why law firms need a guide to navigate the proliferation of marketing venues. Eric, welcome to the program. Eric: Thanks for having me, Sharon. Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your career path. I'm sure you weren't saying this is what you wanted to do when you were in kindergarten. Eric: That's a very good point. I actually made a shift in 2006. I was working with orthopedic surgeons. I had a friend who was working at a company called FindLaw, which really put search engine optimization and digital marketing on the map for lawyers. My mom didn't raise a doctor or a lawyer, but I've worked with both. To be honest, I prefer the law field. Sharon: We'll talk more about it, but how did you get into this space, the online legal space? Eric: So, a quick background. Coming over from the medical side, one thing I always tell people is I was never going to be as knowledgeable as a surgeon. I was selling orthopedic implants, and there was no way I would ever know more than they did. My nail for the femur was very similar to somebody else's nail for the femur. When I came over to attorney marketing, I realized very quickly that this was a new animal. A lot of attorneys weren't doing marketing or weren't putting it into focus. To a lot of the old-school attorneys, marketing was hurtful, because they weren't even legally allowed to market until, I think, the late 70s. Most attorneys that had a thriving practice were using either Yellow Pages or just referral sources, and they were doing extraordinarily well. Once the internet started to become a place for people to find attorneys, it was this brand-new open ground that was really fertile. The thing I loved about it was that I could go into a law firm in January and six months later, they wanted to buy me lunch or dinner because they doubled in size or their profits had doubled. In the early days, search engine optimization was fairly easily, especially working for a big company, because it didn't take much. But as you said, over the past 16, 17 years, there has been a ton of changes. I like to keep up with all those changes to make sure my clients are profiting from those. Sharon: You're bringing back so many memories of firms saying, “Oh, I don't need any online stuff. We take care of it with referrals only. We don't market. We just do referrals,” which to me is marketing, but O.K. Eric: Right. Sharon: What does Market My Market do, and what does that mean? Eric: Good question. We get asked that a lot. When you're choosing the name for a company, you throw a bunch of things against the wall, and you're hoping for something that really defines what you do. We didn't want to pigeonhole ourselves into just legal marketing. There are a lot of companies that do that, but we do work with other professionals. That would be doctors and some accountants, and then lawyers are probably our biggest market. Market My Market is us marketing you in your market. Everybody's got a geography they cover, and our true focus is to make sure they're being as competitive as they possibly can when it comes to online. The one big differentiator we bring is that one of the co-founders, Ryan Klein, worked in-house at two extremely competitive law firms in south Florida. One was a personal injury law firm and the other one was a criminal defense firm. Both were in south Florida, which is the home of John Morgan when it comes to personal injury plus a host of other really competitive law firms. One of the things he did was bring over his philosophy from working in-house, working side by side with attorneys and knowing exactly what they wanted to see. When some people get lost in the weeds as marketers, they say, “Hey, look, your traffic is up,” or “Look how many intakes or phone calls you got,” which are great indicators, but what a lawyer really wants is signed cases. They want more high-quality, signed cases. We want to work backwards into that with our approach to make sure we're getting an increase in signed cases, not just pointing to some of the key indicators. Sharon: I'm going to stop to ask you, is John Morgan a personal injury law firm or an attorney? I've never heard that before. Eric: John Morgan of Morgan and Morgan has built kind of the Death Star of websites. He started out in south Florida as a big TV advertiser. You can't drive more than 10 feet without seeing one of his billboards. Probably five, eight years ago, he started really branching out. He's got practices in Boston and Arizona and Las Vegas. So, his one website they've grown is really competitive in a lot of markets. If you talk to any personal injury attorney in Florida they'll know John Morgan, but more and more, they're starting to know him in other parts of the country because he's starting to encroach in everybody's backyard. Sharon: That's interesting. When you said Morgan and Morgan, I've seen that, but I didn't realize it was John Morgan. This question comes up a lot: what's the difference between SEM, search engine marketing, and SEO, which is search engine optimization? What's the difference? Eric: It's a good question. SEM would be the umbrella term. Search engine marketing is all the different types of marketing you can do online with search engines. We always refer to Google because that's the 800-pound gorilla, but there's also Bing and Yahoo and some other ancillary search engines. Search engine marketing encompasses search engine optimization, but it also includes paid search. Those would be things like Google ads, or one thing that's become very popular over the last two years is LSAs, or Local Services Ads. Anybody listening to this who's done a search for a car accident lawyer in “insert city here,” you'll see three ads at the very top with a profile photo. Those are Local Services Ads. The key to those is you don't pay when somebody clicks; you only pay when you get a lead. If somebody clicks on your ads, reads all your information, but doesn't contact you, you're never charged. But if they fill out a contact form or call that tracking number, it's taken into account on your Google dashboard. You can even reject leads for a refund if they don't qualify. For example, if you're a criminal defense attorney and you get a family law lead, you can dispute that, and they'll take it off your bill. So, search engine marketing is everything you can do with search engine advertising. Search engine optimization is really the key we focus on for one main reason. Nobody goes to Google or any search engine because they have the best ads. They go to that search engine because they trust that the results that show up on the first page are the best information and resource for that subject matter. If I type in “DUI attorney Fresno,” the average person assumes that the law firm that shows up number one is the best DUI attorney in Fresno. It's not always the case, but the big advantage to the optimization piece is people will trust you more when you show up on that first page. The marketing costs are also generally fixed. What I mean by that is if I do a PPC ad and I've got a $10,000 a month budget— Sharon: PPC is? Eric: Pay-per-click. When I do a pay-per-click ad, I'm going to be charged every time someone clicks on my ad, whether they call me or not. Now, if I'm spending $10,000 in January and I spend none in February, that's a sunk cost. I'll never get that $10,000 back. But with search engine optimization, you're paying for links, you're paying for new website pages, blog articles. All of that stuff accumulates over time. The biggest thing I hear with search engine optimization from attorneys is, “Oh, we tried it. It doesn't work,” or “It doesn't work for anybody.” I would challenge you to do a search for your most important keyword in your city and look at the firm who's showing up number one. That person is fighting tooth and nail to stay there. The bigger the city, the harder they're fighting, because if you're showing up number one for “car accident lawyer Houston,” your business is exploding. You can guarantee that the people who are there want to stay there, and they'll do anything they can to keep their number one spot. Sharon: Does anybody still say, “Oh, we tried that and it doesn't work,” when it comes to SEO? Eric: Yeah, they do. To be honest, SEO is constantly changing. Companies like us, we don't claim that we know exactly what Google wants. Google gives you best practices, but they don't want to say, “Do, A, B, C and D and you'll rank number one,” because not everybody can rank number one. The one thing they've always stayed true to is that they want original, relevant content and a great user experience. That's what we've built our company principles on. The people who say it doesn't work have been burned, because no matter how great of an SEO company you are, it takes time to see results. Let's say we're talking about a competitive market like Chicago. That could take six months to a year. If you give an SEO company a year and you get nothing in that year, it's going to be hard for you to invest in somebody else and give them a full year. What happens all the time is they don't get somebody who focuses on legal. They don't know which directories to go to. They don't understand the practice areas, the keyword terms to optimize for. They might be a really good SEO company, but without understanding that legal niche, they might not be performing well enough to get them rankings. I talk to attorneys every day who are like, “Nope, I tried SEO before. It doesn't work.” It's just because it didn't work for them with the particular program they had. Sharon: When you say LSA, Local Services Ads, do you set up a separate phone number for that? Eric: The Local Services Ads are through Google, and Google has its own tracking numbers for you because they want to be able to tell you exactly what somebody searched for and clicked on to serve that ad. That's how they charge you. One of the things we do is manage those Local Services Ad campaigns, so that tracking number gets imported into our dashboard. We can actually say, “Hey, you got 10 Local Services Ad calls. You got 15 intakes. You got 20 calls from organic, and you got 15 calls from Google My Business.” We want to know which piece of the online marketing is working. There are four places for you to get business on Google's homepage: LSAs, PPC, Google Maps, and then there's organic. We really like to focus on organic because that's typically 60% or more of clicks. Not that LSAs and PPC aren't a good substitute, but anybody who's relying solely on PPC is really putting their client flow in jeopardy. It doesn't take many bad months with PPC for you to spend your marketing dollars with no return. Sharon: It used to be many, many years ago that you could say to somebody, “O.K., you don't have the budget. I understand. Here are some things you can do.” It seems like today there's not much you can do. With PPC, it seems like that's the one thing you can still do and say, “O.K., you could just start with PPC. Put all your money into PPC and start that tomorrow,” but you're saying they're missing a lot still. Eric: That's a really good point. If I'm working with somebody in a really competitive market, let's say New York City, and they have almost no web presence at all, that's going to be a really tough pill for them to swallow, for them to hear, “I need you to pay me X dollars a month for a year before you can expect anything.” But that's realistic if they don't have any SEO working at all. That's the case where I'd say, “All right, let's put together a very competitive, focused, pay-per-click campaign to start getting some clients in the door,” because the big advantage with PPC is it's instantaneous. You do the keyword research. You set up your landing pages, and you can start receiving phone calls and emails right away. Now, the downside of PPC is it's become extremely competitive. If you've ever done a search, the most expensive pay-per-click keywords, there's a list of about 180 of them that are legal keywords, things like, “I'm a car accident lawyer.” Those could go anywhere from $50 to $150 per click with no guarantee that the person's even going to reach out to you. So, I think PPC can be used sparingly to make up for that valley of death before you start to get organic results or to hyper-target something that's very timely. For example, if there's a bridge collapse or food poisoning, sometimes there's going to be a bunch of people that are injured in a very short window. Those types of cases come out all the time. You're not going to have a “food poisoning for Tyson Chicken” campaign ready to go with SEO, so in those cases it would make sense. But the most efficient, lowest cost would be LSAs. Again, you're only paying for leads. The big issue right now with LSAs is they've been around so long that if you're in a major market, there are probably at least 50 people in those LSAs already, and there are only three spots that will show up on the homepage. Sharon: And Google decides who those are. Eric: Yes, Google decides. There's some thought that having more reviews, getting consistent reviews, is going to help you show up there. You don't want to get 10 reviews in a month and no more for six months. But the number one factor for showing up in those LSAs is how responsive you are to the leads that come in. Google will know if those go to voicemail. Google will know if you're not interacting with their dashboard to say, “We have this lead” and move that through their funnel. They want to make sure that if you're getting the leads, you're treating their clients well. Remember, they're Google's client first. They went to Google for a search. If you mistreat them and don't provide them a good service, Google's not going to reward you with those rankings. Sharon: Wow! With LSAs, it seems that they would go to voicemail sometimes, because nobody's manning those phones all the time. Eric: That's another good point. The more sophisticated people become, the more efficient their front and back office are, the more profitable they'll be. In the old days, let's say 20 years ago, I don't think the average person expected someone to pick up the phone at 7:00. But if you're having a legal issue, you may not want to talk about that in the workplace. You may call on your way home or after you get home. So, if you don't have 24/7 answering, you could be missing out, and this is actual data we have with our clients. We use call tracking for every single one of our clients. Just under 30% of contacts came in either before 9:00 or after 5:00. If 30% of your contacts are coming in during off hours and you're not immediately responding, you are definitely losing out on clients. Sharon: Wow! That's a lot of person power, I should say. Eric: Exactly. If you get a hundred leads in a month and 30 of those are going to voicemail, that's not a good client experience. Sharon: Is it still possible to become number one in Chicago or Los Angeles or New York, no matter how much money you're putting out? Are those spots just long gone? Could somebody overtake somebody? Eric: Yes, it happens all the time. There are two things that will typically happen. You'll have somebody who gets really aggressive with an organic campaign. There are a lot of myths about organic. A lot of people will say they've got proprietary software; they've got a proprietary secret sauce or amazing links that nobody else knows about. The truth is search engine optimization comes down to doing a lot of things really well. It's very detailed. I's need to be dotted; T's need to be crossed. It's keeping up with trends like user experience. One quick example would be on a mobile phone, you want the contact us and phone buttons to be towards the bottom of the page because that's where people's thumbs are at, whereas on a desktop, people are used to seeing them at the top. Extrapolate that times a thousand little, tiny things, they all add up to the people who show up in those top three to five spots, which is where you need to be to get any clicks. The second thing that can jostle things up would be a Google algorithm change. Google admits that they change and update their algorithm hundreds of times a year, but each year there are usually two or three major ones, and you'll see a big shakeup. Someone who has been in the number one spot for months and months and months all of a sudden drops down to the bottom of page one or even page two. Those are opportunities, because Google is testing out some of their new changes, and they want to see if that user experience is still good. What that means is, let's say you and I are both competing for the same keyword. Somebody goes to your website and the average time on your website is 90 seconds, and the average time on my website is 20 seconds. Well, Google knows that, and they're just going to assume that your website is better; it's more engaging; it has more relevant content. When the algorithm shakes up, that one factor could cause somebody to stay higher than the person who was previously number one. I'll just end by saying this. There's no one factor or silver bullet that's going to get you to number one. Time on site is really good, and it makes logical sense when you tell somebody, but just because your time on site is great doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be number one in that market. There are so many other things that need to be done correctly to keep those rankings. Sharon: You mentioned organic. I know you said you're going to finish up, but I have a lot more questions. Eric: Sure. Sharon: When you say organic, what do you mean? What are you talking about? Eric: Organic are Google's results. They're their most preferred result. Google needs to make money, and we all know that Google is one of the most profitable companies in history, and the reason they are is because they sell ads. They sell Local Services Ads and pay-per-click. Every time someone clicks on an ad, Google gets paid. Well, underneath the ads are typically the Google Maps results first, although sometimes an organic search will show up above it. Then there are the organic links below that. If I'm looking for a pair of shoes and I type in “running shoes,” I'm probably going to see Nike or Dick's Sporting Goods as number one because they're such big, powerful websites. Organic refers to those things underneath the paid section. You basically have to walk through the paid section—a lot of people get stuck there and click on those ads. Google gets paid, but the vast, vast majority of people are going specifically to that organic section because they trust that those are the best, most relevant websites. Sharon: How do you influence organic? You mentioned blogs. Do you write? Do you have other people writing? How does that work? Eric: That's a good question. I like to use the library analogy for how Google picks out a website. Instead of websites, let's call them books. Google is our librarian in the largest library in the world, and I'm looking for a book on cookies. Not just cookies, but I want chocolate chip cookies. What's a better resource, a hundred-page book on cooking that includes chicken and roast beef and baking, or a hundred-page book on just cookies, and specifically chocolate chip cookies? What Google is looking for is the best, most relevant information. As a personal injury attorney, if I've got family law and criminal defense and estate planning and trusts and intellectual property and car accidents, I'm really diluting my message. My book is a catchall for everything. If I have a really focused book on just personal injury—and I'm talking about car accidents or brain injuries or spine injuries—now I've created a really powerful, relevant, niche source. If you do a search for Covid right now, you're probably going to find something like WebMD. You're not going to find some random website. You'll find something from the CDC because those are powerful sites that have developed their niche. So, the way to earn Google's respect is, number one, the content has to be original. They don't want to duplicate content. They're literally tracking billions, if not trillions, of websites by now, so if your content isn't original, why keep track of it? Then they want to make sure those user experience things are there: how much time on site, how quickly does the website load, how easy is it to get from one page to the next? When you ask us specifically about content, we have our own in-house team. We think content is so important, so we look for really good writers and we train them on how to research for the purposes of showing up organically. So, how to research for a keyword and then how to write so search engines can pick up on those keywords. Content is such an important part. Instead of outsourcing it to a third party, we hired good writers. These are all US-based employees of Market My Market that write, edit and post their content to the website. Sharon: With Google, I always imagined—and maybe you can shed some light on it—that there's some person somewhere who's watching all these screens and making decisions. Is this all done by a machine? Eric: Yes. Google specifically calls this machine learning. That's really where the user experience part comes into this. In the old days, back in 2006, all you really needed to do was have some good content and a couple of labels. If I was trying to rank for “medical malpractice attorney Los Angeles,” I would want to make sure that page was titled “medical malpractice attorney.” I'd want that to be the title of the first paragraph, and I'd want to use that term a couple of times in there. Well, people got wise to that, and then they started keyword stuffing. They started putting keywords all over the place. They would even put black text on a black background so you couldn't see it, but Google could read it. Well, Google is much smarter than any of us, and they can now pick up on those. They pick up on the user experience key indicators, which is how people interact with the website. They know if someone is clicking around and going to multiple pages. One of the biggest SEO terms is bounce rate. A lot of people mistake bounce rate with how fast someone bounces from the website, meaning, “I went to the website, and I bounced in two seconds.” That's not what bounce rate is. Bounce rate is only going to a single page. If I come to the homepage and I don't click on an attorney profile or a client testimonial or the car accident page, Google is marking that against me because they're saying, “People come to your website. You've got a hundred pages and they only go to one. That can't be a good search experience.” These algorithms are now taking all these learning experiences from millions and millions of searches, and they're coming up with—and Google admits this—rankings that even the Google engineers don't know exactly how they get to it. The benefit of AI is that it works while you're sleeping. The downside of AI is you're not exactly sure why the output is what it is until you dig into the weeds. That's why we see so many changes in Google's algorithm throughout the year. Sharon: AI being artificial intelligence. Eric: Correct, yeah. Google likes to use the term “machine learning.” I don't know if they just want to coin their own term, but they always refer to it as machine learning. Their computers are learning based on how people interact with the Google searches they provide. Sharon: That's interesting. I didn't know that was how they defined it. What's the difference between working with lawyers and working with financial professionals, doctors, other professional services? Eric: The biggest difference from a marketing perspective is knowing which resources are best. Most of my clients are in the legal industry. People are going to get their links from Avvo and FindLaw, but if you haven't dealt with lawyers before, you might not know the more obscure or random or even local searches. Most attorneys belong to at least one if not several bar associations. They could belong to their local city bar association. They could belong to their state bar association. All of those give them opportunities to list who they are and link back to their website. When it comes to other professionals like financial, that's not a market we dabble in. I wouldn't have the confidence to tell somebody who was a financial planner or someone big in the finance world that I know exactly where to market them, because I don't have the 17 years of experience there. When somebody can focus in on a niche, they can find all these nooks and crannies on the internet where they can market their clients to make sure they're putting their best foot forward. Sharon: Does social media play any part in this? Does that change things? Eric: When it comes to social media, there are two different ways to use it. The first one is the most labor-intensive and hardest, but it can pay off. I strongly suggest anybody who wants to do organic social media, which means you're posting about your law firm—that takes a lot of work. They say you should be posting one to three times a day, and that would be on things like TikTok and Instagram and Facebook. Now, I see your face. That seems like a lot of work, and it is. You've got to think about this, and you've got to be very inventive when you do your posts, because who is going to follow a criminal defense attorney for no reason? Who's going to follow a family law attorney? One way to use social media to your advantage organically is to take viral content that's happening right now and put your spin on it. For example, we just got past the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial that was making worldwide news. Some of the most popular posts were attorneys who were giving their two cents on that day's trial. That's a great way to do something through social media. It still takes time because you've got to keep up on whatever that trial is, and then you've got to go in and give your unique take, but that could pay off in dividends. Some of those videos were getting millions of views, which is really raising their presence.   The other way to use social media is to do paid advertising. You can do paid advertising through TikTok. You can do it through Facebook and Instagram, and what you're doing is targeting your most likely audience. If I'm a criminal defense attorney, I might be targeting males because more males are committing crimes. I might target certain areas of the county near jails or where courts are. I can geotarget those. I can put a circle around the court. Anybody who's coming in and out of this building, I want to target them with an ad. Those would be paid ads. Budgets can range in the low thousands to the high thousands, depending on how competitive that market is and how many people you want to serve ads to. Sharon: Do you take that into account? Does one hand influence the other in terms of things you're doing to optimize everything? Does that come into play? Eric: Social media doesn't have a huge organic bump to it unless you get into the extremes. If I have a post that's going viral, if I'm getting lots of mentions, if the firm name is being mentioned a lot on Twitter, that can have some effects, but that's very rare. I would say if you have somebody in the office who loves social media and they're going to post your holiday parties—for example, if somebody gives you a great review on Google, repost that review and say, “Thanks, Karen. We really love having you as a client.” Make it interactive. That's probably not going to win you a case organically, but if someone finds your social media profile, sees how active you are, gets a feel for the personality of the firm, it could get you that first phone call as they're doing their due diligence on who to hire. Sharon: Do you see social media playing more of a role as you continue in this vein? Eric: I see social media as a really good way to connect with people. I see it more as a tool for paid. There are very few attorneys that are going to spend enough time on social media, the time it needs. If you hire me to run your social media campaign, what do I know about the daily workings of the firm? That should be more of a personal thing. What you could hire us to do is to create ads for you and to serve those ads to specific people. As a general rule of thumb, social media is not a great tool for single-event personal injuries like car accidents, because it's really hard to target your audience. Where they do make a difference would be in mass torts, for example Roundup. Roundup has glyphosate in it. It was giving people non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. There were links to this. Monsanto was sued. Bellwether trials went on to prove that they were at fault, and the verdicts were coming back in the tens of millions of dollars. That is a great tool for social media because I know the type of person that used Roundup. I know the hotbeds. This wasn't your weekend gardener; these were people in the flyover states that were using tons of this stuff, literally, on their crops. People who were working on farms or in agriculture were overly exposed to this stuff and were coming down with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and a couple other types of cancer. That's great for Facebook because you're leveraging all the data they have on their users, all their attributes, their age, their income. I like social media for those kinds of campaigns, but for your typical family law attorney or criminal defense attorney, it's probably dollars that could be spent better somewhere else. Sharon: Eric, I could go on forever asking a million more questions. There's so much to all of this. Thank you being here today. Eric: Sharon, thanks for having me. I appreciate the conversation. Sharon: Greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

This episode of Tech Sales Insights is the second part of our conversation with Eric Brock, Chairman & CEO of ONDAS Networks and Diana Shapiro, CEO of Dynam.AI. Eric first introduces ONDAS and what they do for businesses that need connectivity over wide areas. They then talk about defining automation at the highest levels and what their partnership means in creating relevant technologies and solutions. HIGHLIGHTSEric talks about ONDAS and their focus on dronesAutomating decision-making and manual processes at a high levelBringing together different technologies to create great solutions QUOTESOn having something that defines the industry and defines solutions - Eric: "It is about understanding what the customer needs and we come in solving that critical bottleneck. We're removing the pilot and the FAA is giving us permission to do that which is really difficult to do from a fully-autonomous platform that works every day as a workhorse without human intervention."The partnership of ONDAS and Dynam.AI - Diana: "They're not just solving a problem for one customer, they're solving an industry-related problem. When you do that, you're just levels above your competition because you're thinking way bigger than just one customer. You're thinking, what can I do for the industry to help get it to the next level?" Find out more about our guests in the links below:About EricAbout Diana Send in a voice message to us: https://anchor.fm/salescommunity/message This episode of Tech Sales Insights is brought to you by: Sales Community | https://www.salescommunity.com/OpenSymmetry | https://www.opensymmetry.com/

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with filmmaker Eric Mendelsohn, who revisits the lessons he learned while making his debut feature film, “Judy Berlin.”LINKSJudy Berlin Trailer: https://youtu.be/23PlEaTy9WAEdie Falco Interview about Judy Berlin: https://youtu.be/AoC5q5N-6kYA Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcast***TRANSCRIPT -EPISODE 106Eric Mendelson Interview [JUDY BERLIN SOUNDBITE] JohnThat was a soundbite from “Judy Berlin,” which was written and directed by today's guest, Eric Mendelsohn. Hello and welcome to episode 106 of The Occasional Film podcast -- the occasional companion podcast to the Fast, Cheap Movie Thoughts Blog. I'm the blog's editor, John Gaspard. Judy Berlin, starring Edie Falco, as well as Madeline Kahn, Bob Dishy, Barbara Barrie and Julie Kavner, was Eric Mendelsohn's feature film debut. The film was an Official Selection of the Cannes Film Festival … won Best Director at Sundance … Best Independent Film at the Hamptons Film Festival … and was nominated for three Independent Spirit Awards. Eric is currently the Professor of Professional Practice, Film, at Columbia University. I first spoke to Eric about Judy Berlin years and years ago, for my book, Fast Cheap and Under Control: Lessons Learned from the Greatest Low-Budget Movies of All Time. In the course of that interview, Eric laid out a handful of really smart filmmaking lessons – lessons that, if followed, might be the difference between making a successful film … or making no film at all. I was curious: What did Eric think about those lessons, all these years later? Before we got into that, though, we talked about the origins of Judy Berlin … [MUSIC TRANSTION] John What was the impetus that made Judy Berlin happen? Eric It's answerable in a more general way. When I get interested in making a script or making a film, it's because a group of feelings and images almost in a synesthesia kind of way, come together and I get a feeling and I say, oh, yeah, that would be fun. And for Judy Berlin, the set of feelings were definitely having to do with melancholy, hopefulness, the suburbs and my intimate feelings about them being a fresh place that I hadn't seen, represented in the way I experienced them. Things as abstract as how everyone feels in autumn time, I guess, maybe everyone does. I don't know. Maybe there are some people who are just blissfully unaware of all those sad feelings of you know, autumn, but I felt like they were worth reproducing if maybe they hadn't been in that particular locale. I think this is a funny thing to say but against all of that sadness, and kind of hope against hope, being hopeful against hopelessness, I had this sound of a score to a Marvin Hamlisch score to Take the Money and Run. And I actually asked him to do the music and he said he didn't understand such sadness that was in the movies that this isn't something I do. Which is really true and I didn't get it and I wanted to persist and say no, but that score for Take the Money and Run, that has such like almost like a little kids hopefulness about it. That's what I wanted. It was like a river running underneath the ground of the place that I had grown up with. And I think the other inspiration for the movie was pretty, I don't know, maybe it's called plagiarism. Maybe it's called inspiration, the collected feeling that you can distill from the entire works of Jacques Demy, and I loved Jacques Demy 's films. They gave me a license. I saw them and said, Well, if you can mythologize your own little town in the northwest of France that maybe seems like romantic to Eric Mendelsohn from old Bethpage, Long Island, New York but truly is a kind of a unremarkable place at the time it was made, that I can do it with my town. I can mythologize everybody, and love them and hate them and talk about them and so those are some of the feelings that went into it. John But they all came through. So, what I want to do is just go through the handful of lessons that you told me X number of years ago, and let's see what you think about them now. So, one of the big ones that turns up again and again, when I talked to filmmakers was the idea of write to your resources. And in the case of Judy Berlin, you told me that that's a great idea and you thought you were: It takes place over one day with a bunch of characters in one town. When in fact you were really making things quite difficult for yourself by having middle aged people with homes and cars and businesses and professional actors who all had other things going on. Eric 03:35And multiple storylines is a terrible idea for low budget movie making. Each actor thought oh, I'm in a little short film. I, however, was making a $300,000 movie about 19 characters. What a stupid guy I was. John 03:53Do you really think it was stupid? Eric 03:54It was. You know, everyone says this after you have graduated from that kind of mistake or once you've done it, you look back and say I would only have done that because I didn't know any better. I know you haven't finished your question. But I also want to say that writing or creating from ones' resources also includes what you are able to do, what you are able to manufacture. In other words, I didn't have enough writing skill to concentrate on two characters or one character in house, like Polanski, in his first endeavors. I didn't I had small ideas for many characters. It's much more difficult to write a sustained feature film with two people. So, I was writing to my resources in a number of ways, not just production, but in my ability as a writer at that point. John 04:53Yeah, you're right. It is really hard. I don't know why they always say if you're gonna make a low budget movie, have it be two people in a room. That's really hard to do. The idea of let's just tell a bunch of stories does seem easier and I've done that myself a couple times and it is for low budget easier in many respects. My stuff is super low budget, no one's getting paid. We're doing it on weekends, and you can get some really good actors to come over for a couple days and be really great in their part of the movie and then you put it all together. Another advantage is if you have multiple stories, I learned this from John Sayles in Returns of the Secaucus Seven, he said I couldn't move the camera. So, I just kept moving the story. It allowed him to just, I can't move the camera, but I can move to the next scene, I can move to these people, or I can move to those people there. And it also allows you an editing a lot of freedom, because you can shift and move and do things. So, the downside you had of course was on just a strictly production shooting day level, very hard to do what you were doing. But it did allow you to grow a bit as a writer because you're able to write a lot of different kinds of characters and different kinds of scenes. Eric 05:57Remember, I always say this, you know, you sit in your room, and I believe you need to do this as a writer, you sit in your room and you say to yourself, she slams a car door harder than usual. And then you realize later she drives a car, where am I going to get a car from? She enters her house. How am I going to get a house and if I have seven characters, and they all have cars, that's a job in itself. One person could spend their summer looking for seven cars. But that's the least of your problems. When it's houses, cars, clothing, handbags, all of it. John 06:30Yeah, when you're starting out, you don't necessarily realize that every time you say cut to something in your script, that's a thing. You've got to get it. I did a feature once that had four different stories and there are four different writers and a writer came to me with his finished script, which was brilliant, but it was like 14, 15 locations that I had to shoot over two days. So, how do you do that? Well, you end up spending four days on it. But the other hand, another writer who understood screenwriting, handed me a script that was four locations, but brilliantly combined and figured out. So, in two days, you could shoot them all because he knew what he was doing. And that's something you don't necessarily learn until you're standing there at six in the morning with a crew going, I don't know what I'm doing right now, because I screwed myself up and I wrote it and that's sometimes the only way you can learn it. Eric 07:16I think it's the only way. The only way. Look, you can be precautious, you can, it's no different than life, your parents can warn you about terrible, ruinous, stupid, love affairs that are going to wreck you for a year. Are you really going to just not get into them because of what smart older people said? You throw yourself at a film in the way that hopefully you throw yourself at love affairs. You're cautious and then you've just got to experience it. And I think the difference obviously is in film, you're using lots of people's time, effort money, and you do want to go into it with smarts and planning. I still say that you should plan 160%. Over plan in other words. And then the erosion that naturally happens during production, this crew member stinks and had to be fired a day before. This location was lost. This actress can't perform the scene in one take because of memory problems. All of that is going to impact your film. Let's say it impacts it 90%. Well, if you plan to 160%, you're still in good shape in the footage that you get at the end of the production. John 08:29Yeah, I'm smiling, because you're saying a lot of the things you said last time, which means it's still very true. Alright, the next lesson was, and this is one that I've embraced forever: No money equals more control. You spoke quite eloquently about the fact that people wanted to give you more money to make Judy Berlin if you would make the following changes. Looking back on it did you make the right decisions on that one? Eric 08:51Yes. I'll tell you something interesting. Maybe I didn't say this last time. But I remember my agent at the time saying to me, we could get you a lot of money. Why don't you halt production? We'll get you so much money that will get you--and this is the line that always stuck in my head-- all the bells and whistles you want. Now, I'm going to be honest with you what he said scared me for two reasons. One, I had worked in production for a long time in my life and I knew that if you stall anything, it just doesn't happen. It just doesn't. That the energy of rolling downhill is better than sitting on the hill, potential energy and trying to amass funds. But another thing and I was scared privately because I said to myself, I don't even know what the bells and whistles are. I'm afraid to tell him that I don't know what they are. And I'd rather I think that's those bells and whistles are for some other savvy filmmaker that I'll maybe become later. But right now I have the benefit of not knowing enough and I'm going to throw myself and my planning and my rigorous militaristic marshalling of people and props and costume names and locations and script. I'm gonna throw that all at the void and do it my cuckoo way because once I learned how to make a movie better, I'll have lost a really precious thing, which is my really, really raw, naive, hopeful, abstract sense of what this could be. And that thing that I just said with all those words was not just a concept. I didn't know what I was making, in the best sense possible. I was shooting for something, shooting it for an emotional goal, or a visual goal for a dramatic goal but I didn't put a name on it. I didn't put a genre to it. So much so that by the time I got to the Sundance Film Festival, and I read the first line of a capsule review, and it said, A serio-comic suburban. I almost cried, I felt so bad that I didn't know what I was making in an objective sense. In a subjective sense, obviously, I knew exactly what I was trying to do. But objectively, I didn't know it could be summed up by a review. And it hurt me so badly to think I was so mockable and now I'm going to embarrass myself by telling you what I thought I was making. I didn't think I was making something that could have a boldface thing that said, serio comic, multi character, suburban fairy tale. I didn't know that. I really thought I was like writing in glitter on black velvet or I don't know, I didn't even know that it could just be summed up so easily. And I think I've written a lot of scripts since that one, and many haven't gotten made, but each time I reject and issue an objective determination of what the thing is that I'm working on, prior to sitting down. Is that the best way to work? It is a painful way to work. My friends will tell you that. I have my great friend and filmmaker Rebecca Dreyfus always says that I have creative vertigo, that I don't know what I'm doing for months and years on end and then I looked down and I say, Oh, God, I think it's a horror film. Or I think I've rewritten a Dickens story. And I get a nauseated kind of, you know, dolly in rack, focus thing. It's not, I'm telling you, I'm not describing a creative process that is painful for me to realize, always later on what I'm doing. And I still hold, that's the only way I can do it. I will not go into a screenplay and then a film saying this is a serio comic black and white, multi character, suburban, who wants that? I go in thinking, I'm making something that I don't know, that no one's seen before and then we'll see what they think. John 12:54You know, we were very similar, you and I in that regard. In addition to low budget, filmmaking, as I've gotten older, I've gotten into novel writing and mystery writing, which I enjoy. And the parallels between independent publishing and independent filmmaking are really close. One of the things that people say all the time in independent publishing that I back away from is you have to write to market. You have to know who your audience is, what they like, and write a book for them. And I can't do that. I can write a book for me that, you know, if I slip into dementia in 20 years and read it, I won't remember writing it, but I would enjoy it because all the jokes are for me and all the references are for me... Eric 13:32I think you and me, doing the exact right thing, according to me. And you'll be happy to know, because I teach at Columbia Columbia's film grad school, we have an unbelievable group of alumni people, you know, like, you know, Jennifer Lee, who created Frozen and the people behind Making of a Murderer and Zootopia. And all they ever say when they come back to speak to our students is nobody wants a writer who is writing to the industry. They want something they haven't seen before that is new, fresh, odd, and still steaming be you know, out of the birth canal. John 14:14Yep. The corollary to that, that I tell people who are writing and also people who are filmmakers who want to work that way is the more you can take economics out of the process, the more you're able to not need to make money from what you're doing, the happier you're going to be. Because every movie I've ever made has never made money and it didn't matter. It wasn't the purpose. The purpose was, oh, this is interesting idea. Let's explore this with these 12 actors and see what happens. But if you can take economics out of it, you completely free. Eric 14:41You free and I'll tell you what, I know. Again, it's just a perspective, one person's perspective. But everyone, you know, you want to leave on the earth some things that you felt good about, whether they're children or ethics or some civic thing you did for your town, or a movie. And all the people I know who made tons of money always are talking about coming back to their roots because they're so unhappy. Like, I get it. I get it. And all these actors who want to do work for no money, it's because they feel like well, I sure I made a ton of money, but I didn't get to do any of the stuff I really care about. I remember in my first real attempt at filmmaking after film school, a short half hour film that starred the late Anne Meara and Cynthia Nixon in an early film role and F Murray Abraham did the voiceover. And I was 20 something years old, and the film did very well and it was just a half hour movie and we showed it at the Museum of Modern Art. And after the screening, a woman came up to me and I don't remember what language she was speaking. She was Asian, and she tried to explain to her to me, what the movie meant to her, but she spoke no English and she kept tapping her heart and looking at me. Anne Meara was standing next to me and she kept pointing like and then making a fist and pounding her chest and pointing to like a screen in the air, as if she was referencing the movie. And then she went away. Anne Meara said, listen to me now, it will never get better than that. I understand completely. For the movie I made after Judy Berlin, which is called Three Backyards and a movie I produced and cowrote after that, called Love After Love. I didn't read the reviews. Who cares? John 16:27Yeah, that's a pretty special experience and good for her to point that out to you. Eric 16:31Her husband in a bar after a production of The Three Sisters told me that--this is pretty common. This is Jerry Stiller, the late great comedian said to me, I was about to tell him what the New York Times had said about his performance. He said, no, no, no, don't. Because if you believe the good ones, then you have to believe the bad ones. And I've since known that that is something that's said a lot. But if a review isn't going to help you make your next movie, then don't read it. Marlena Dietrich, in my favorite last line, paraphrased from any movie, gets at why criticism is unimportant for the artist. In the end of Touch of Evil, she says, “what does it matter what you say about other people.” It's just, you either do or they did to you or you experience all that garbage of what people say it goes in the trash, no one except for maybe James Agee's book, there's very few film criticism books that people are desperate to get to, you know, in 50 years. But you take a bad movie, I watched some summer camp killer movie the other night, and I thought I'd rather watch this than read what somebody said about this movie. I'd rather watch somebody's earnest attempt to fling themselves at the universe than a critics commentary upon it. Yeah. Anyone who gets up at five in the morning to go make a movie has my respect and I don't even you know, on the New York Times comments online commentary site, I refused when it's about artwork to come in even anonymously. Nope! John 18:05Okay. You did touch on this. But it's so important and people forget it. I phrased it as time is on your side. You talked about being prepared 160% and having Judy Berlin, every day, there were two backups in case for some reason, something didn't happen and the advantage you had was you had no money. But you had time and you could spend the time necessary doing months of pre-production, which is the certainly the least sexy part of filmmaking, but is maybe the most important and is never really talked about that much. How much you can benefit from just sitting down and putting the schedule down? I mean, we used to, I'm sure with Judy Berlin, you're using strips and you're moving them around and when we did our 16-millimeter features, we didn't even spend the money on the board. We made our own little strips, and we cut them out and did all that. You can do it now on computers, it's much easier, but it's having that backup and that backup to the backup. You don't really need it until you need it and then you can't get it unless you've put it in place already. Eric 19:06Well, I'll say this, I have to disabuse some of my students at Columbia by telling them that there is no like effete artist who walks onto a set-in filmmaking with no idea about scheduling. That character fails in filmmaking. That every single director is a producer, and you cannot be stupid about money, and you cannot be stupid about planning and in fact, Cass Donovan who is an amazing AD and one of my good friends. She and I sometimes used to do a seminar for young filmmakers about scheduling your movie and I always used to say, you know, a good schedule is a beautiful expression of your movie, where you put your emphasis. And it comes out in the same way that people say like oh, I just like dialogue and characters. I'm not good at structure. There's no such things. You need at least to understand that a good structure for your story can be a beautiful, not restrictive, rigorous device that's applied to your artistry, a structure and a story is a beautiful can be a beautiful thing and the expression of the story and the same thing is true with the schedule. The schedule is an expression of your story's emphases. If your story and your resources are about actors, and you've got an amazing group of people who are only doing the project and lending their experience and talent, because they thought this was a chance to act and not be hurried. Well, that expresses itself in how many days and how many shots you're going to schedule them in. And I love how a schedule expresses itself into an amount of days and amount of money and allocation of funding. I love it. There is no better way to find out what your priorities were and I love it. And in terms of planning, one of the reasons I don't understand or have an inkling to investigate theater is I don't want something that goes on every evening without my control, where the actors sort of do new things or try stuff out and the carefully plotted direction that you created can get wobbly and deformed over time. Instead, I like the planning of a script and now I'm not talking about pre-production. I'm talking about I like that, with screenwriting, you go down in your basement for as long as you need. So, maybe I'm afraid of shame and I don't like to present stuff that is so obviously wrong to whole groups of people. I like to go down in the basement for both the writing and the pre-production and get the thing right. You know, there are so many ways to make a movie that I'll also I want to place myself in a specific school of filmmaking. To this point in my directing life, I've created scripts that are meant to be executed in the sense that not as disciplined in execution as what Hitchcock or David Lean, we're shooting for, but not as loose an experiment as Cassavetes, or let's say, Maurice Pilar. We're going for, everyone has to find their own expression. In other words, if you are Maurice Pilar or Cassavetes, or Lucrecia Martel, you have to find your own equation, you have to find your own pre-production/production equation where the room for experimentation. I haven't really wanted to experiment on set, I know what shots I want, and I get them. The next film I make may be different. But everyone has a different equation and every script and every director are going to find their own priorities that are expressed in the project and then the execution. The fun thing was, the last movie I worked on, was something I've produced and co-wrote ,called Love After Love. And that was directed and co-written by Russ, and Russ and I spent years writing a script that we knew that was intended to be elastic, and to be a jumping off ground for the kind of impromptu directing he does. Now, a lot of what we wrote ended up in the movie, but sometimes he would call me from the set and say, this isn't working and that was exciting, because we knew that would happen. And he told the cast and the crew before they went into the project, before they went into the short film he made before that called Rolling on the Floor Laughing. This is intended to be a porous experiment ,with a firm spine of drama that is not porous. So, we've created a drama and interrelations in that script that then he went off, and those couldn't budge. Those were fixed the dramatic principles and dynamics. But he worked as a director in a completely different way than me and I was very happy to loosen my own way of working and then as a producer, make sure that he had what he needed on the set, and that the pre-production, production and even editing--we took a year to edit that film--was based in an idiosyncratic methodology of his particular artistry, not mine. John 24:34And why I think is so interesting about that is that you know, you made sure that everybody involved knew going in we're doing this kind of movie and this kind of movie has … I remember talking to Henry Jaglom, about I don't know which movie it was, you know, Henry has a very loose style of what he does. But it's still a movie, and he was talking about, he was shooting a scene and an actress either jumped into a swimming pool or push somebody into a swimming pool. And he said, Why did you do that? She said, I was in the moment. Yeah, and he said, yes, this is a movie and now I have to dry these people off and I have to do the coverage on the other side. So, you need to know where the lines are, how improvised is this really. Eric 25:15And everyone has different lines, and you make movies to find out how you make movies. You write screenplays to find out what that feeling is and whether or not you can interest an audience in it. You don't write a screenplay to execute Syd Fields, ideas about story or the hero's journey. I'm not a hero. I don't have a hero's journey. I have my journey. The task, the obligation is to see if I can take that and still make it dramatic and interesting to a group of hostile strangers, normally called an audience, John 25:52As Harry Anderson used to say, if you have a bunch of people all seated facing the same direction, do you owe them something. Eric 25:58Yeah, it's unbelievable. A friend of mine who works in theater saw a terrible show and he works on Broadway, and he works on all the big shows that you have heard of. So, I can't give the title of this one particular production. And he said, you know, I feel like telling these people because he works in lighting. He said, I feel like telling these people who create these shows that every single audience member who comes to see the show at eight o'clock that night, woke up at seven in the morning, and they're tired, and they worked and you better provide something at eight that night. John 26:33Exactly. I remember talking to Stuart Gordon, the guy who made Reanimator, and he was big in theater before he got into horror films. And he said we had one patron who always brought her husband, and I'll say his name was Sheldon, I forget what the name was. And he would consistently fall asleep during the shows. And my mandate to the cast was our only job is to keep Sheldon awake. Yeah, that's what we're there to do is to keep Sheldon alert and awake. And I think at all the time as you're watching something on film, you're going is that going to keep Sheldon awake, or is that just me having fun? Eric 27:01No, he didn't ask this question, so it's probably not. But a lot of students are not a lot, actually but some students will say to me like, well, what I have to know the history of movies? Why do I have to know that when I'm going to create something new? And I just think because you're not. Because there is a respect for a craft. Forget the art of people who have been doing this for ages. And to not know it puts you in the position of the only person on set who doesn't realize that. Every single crew member is a dramatist: the script supervisor is a dramatist, the set decorator is a dramatist, the costume designer, the cinematographer, the producer. So sometimes my students in directing will say to me, well, I thought this shot was interesting and I said, Okay, you may think that's interesting. But I'm going to tell you something scary right now: your producer, and your editor will know immediately that you don't know what you're doing and that that won't cut. It is not a secret this thing you are doing, this skill. Learn what other people, what the expectations of the art form are, please, and then build from them and break rules and expand but don't do it naively. John 28:06Yeah. When I wrote the first book, it was because I had done an interview with a couple guys who made a movie called The Last Broadcast, which came out right before Blair Witch, which had a similar project process to it. And one of them said to me, he said in talking to film students, one thing I keep seeing is everyone wants to reinvent the wheel. And so I put the book together, because here's all the different lessons, you can you're going to end up learning in one way or another, you might as well read them now and like you say, not find out that that won't cut because it won't cut. It just won't cut. Alright, you did touch on this lesson earlier just in passing, but it's a good one and it's sometimes a tough one. I just called it Fixed Problems Quickly and it was about if there's a crew member who's not part of the team, it's easier to get rid of them two weeks out, then two hours into the shoot. Eric 28:54Yep, it still holds, and it happened on the film I made after Judy Berlin as well. Someone who had worked on Judy Berlin came on to the new production of Three Backyards, and I tried my best to keep this untenable relationship working. But like a rotten root on a plant, it started to rot everything around it, and everyone would like to be the well-liked captain of the ship. But that also means firing crew members sometimes. We had a very, very big key position on that film, and we had to lose them a week before we shot. I'll tell you something else about Three Backyards. It was a week before we shot it. Is it okay that I talked about that? John 29:39Absolutely. We're talking about what you've learned. Eric 29:42Yeah. So, after Judy Berlin I made a film called Three Backyards with Edie Falco and Elias Kotes and host of other people. A very strange movie it was, I am not joking. I haven't said this. So, not that this is some big reveal that anyone gives a shit about but before, a week before we shot it was called Four Backyards. I've never told that because I didn't want anyone to watch it with that mindset and start to say, and we even kept the crew quiet and said, please, we don't want this to get out that it's you know. And I cut out an entire storyline a week before shooting. Now, when I tell you that it was an actor, a very amazing actor in that storyline, the fourth backyard, who I had to call, who was already doing driving around on his motorcycle in the location, going to visit places that had to do with his storyline, costume fittings, everything had been done locations we had gotten, I had to call them and say we're cutting, that your character and that storyline. It was still to this day unbearable. I don't expect you know, the guy is very well known and successful, and you know, has done far more important things than my little movie. But I still feel guilty to this day. I feel nauseous to this day that I did that, that I had to do it. We got to a point where it was clear, the expression of the film called Four Backyards would be running through one take per shot, per setup and running through with no time to work on the characters, no time to give these amazing actors, you know what they wanted. We'd be run and gun and I just said, I'm not this old, you know, to making this movie so that I can re-learn terrible lessons and put these actors through that kind of experience. So, I cut an entire storyline that was dragging down this buoy, let's say in the water and then once we cut it off, and I of course I don't mean the actor or the performance, the potential performance. I mean, the production. Once that fell to the bottom of the sea, the buoy lifted and bounced and righted itself. And I lived with that decision knowing I did the right thing, but that it was hard. We also lost one of the key, we lost our production designer I would say about 15 days before shooting, and that was another one of those kinds of decisions where I said get it done now. I will say this offline on Three Backyards. There was a crew member who had, the minute I shook hands with them, I knew this is that kind of poisonous sniping inconsolable person. But I leave those decisions to department heads and that's not my job to get in and say this person seems awful to me. But that's my feeling. They worked for about, let me say this carefully, they worked and it and became exactly the problem that I had predicted. They initiated a work stoppage that was uncalled for, unprofessional, and everyone was aware. They pretended not to know what location we were going to next and didn't show up. We were delayed I think 40 minutes. On a low budget movie, 40 minutes is unsustainable. And I will just say this, I had to make the decision because we were so deep into the film, whether or not firing that person would cause such bad feelings in the remaining crew or free us up in a way that was similar to what I described earlier. I decided to keep the person and it was I believe the right decision because we were close enough to finishing the film that I believed I would no longer reap benefits from firing them and that leads me to a sentence that I probably told you when I was 20 or whatever how old I was when I spoke to you. I'm now 57. On a movie, you want to be effective not right. In other words, a decision that is morally right on a film which is a temporary, collapsible circus tent where people strangers get together and work for a month, being morally right can hit the main pole of that circus tent really hard and collapse. You want to be effective not right. The right decision in a movie. It is the one that gets forward motion. In that particular case, I took my revenge out later, I kept the person, I bit my tongue and swallowed my pride and said I'm so sorry, let's negotiate. How can we make you happier? However, after we finished production, my more powerful friends in the industry never hired that person again. That person was fired from large TV productions that they were on and given no reason and I felt absolutely thrilled with that. John 34:48Well, it does catch up with you. The next one is one that I use all the time and you just put it very succinctly you said, Fewer Takes, More Shots. Eric 34:57So, I can talk about that. I want to be specific though, that it's for my kind of filmmaking. If you're shooting every scene in one shot, this cannot apply. But in the edit room generally, is a very broad stroke comment, generally, if you're a more conventional visual director who tells stories with shots, you get stuck on one shot in one setup, especially if it's a master and you're trying to get it right. You have no other storytelling ability. You don't have the move in. You don't have the overhead shot. You don't have the insert shot of the finger of the character touching a teaspoon nervously. You don't have any other storytelling ability if you get stuck in one setup. So, a lot of people always say, you know, remember, your first take is probably your best take. That's a good truism. There's an energy that you get from nervous actors, nervous camera operators in a first take. So, sometimes your first take has a great spontaneity about it. Sometimes it lingers for a second or third take. The idea that you are going to beat that dead horse into the ground with subsequent takes going up through 13, 15, 19 to get something perfect flies in the face of the actuality, which is that editing, performance, the rhythm of the eventual scene through shots and takes creates what the audience experiences. That the idea of perfection is a great way to flatten your actors, kill your dialogue, ruin your scene. It's like when I first made a pie ever in my life, nobody taught me and I didn't really look at a book. I was preparing a meal for a woman who was coming up to her country house and I was upstate using the house. And I thought to myself as I carefully cut the butter into the flour and created a little pebbly, beautiful texture, and then gently gathered those pebbles of flour and butter and sugar together into a ball. I mistakenly thought that if I took the rolling pin and roll the life out of it, I would be making the best crust possible. And it tasted it was inedible. It tasted like shoe leather. And I said what did I do wrong? And they said, the object she said to me when she arrived, the object is to gather those delicate, beautiful pebbles together and lightly make it into a crust that retains the little particles, the delicate interstitial hollows. Not to flatten the life out of it. And the same is true about shots. The more angles you have, if that's the way you shoot, create a sense of life. That's about as good as I can say it. John 37:49Well, you know, I want to add just a couple of things. When I did the book, originally, I talked, had a wonderful long conversation with Edie, Falco about Judy Berlin. She was trying to get her brand-new baby to go to sleep while we talk and so it's very quiet recording of her talking. Eric 38:04That's my godson Anderson. John 38:05Oh, that's so sweet. She said about multiple takes. She said there's a perception sometimes with filmmakers that actors are this endless well. And she said, I'm not, I'm just not. Unless you're giving me direction to change something, it's going to be the same or worse. Again, and again. And so you know, of all the lessons from the book that I tell people when I'm making presentations, fewer takes more shots. The thing, a corollary of attitude, is if you're going to do another take, tell them to do it faster, because you're gonna want a faster version of it. You don't realize that right now, but you're gonna want one. Eric 38:38Here's a great way of saying it. I feel people mistake, directors mistakenly think that they are making the film on set. The filming of a movie is a shopping expedition for, drumroll please, ingredients. If you are shooting one take per scene, sure, get it right, you have your own methodology. But if you're going to be telling a story in the traditional narrative way, where a bunch of angles and performances in those shots, setups angles, will eventually tell the story of a scene that let's say for example, goes from pedestrian quotidian to life threatening, remember that you need the ingredients to then cook in the edit room of quotidian, seemingly boring escalating into life threatening. Making a movie on set in production is shopping for the ingredients and you come home and then you forget the recipe and say, what did I get? What was available? What was fresh? What does that mean if you're not talking about food? Well, this actor was amazing, and I lingered on them and I worked on their performance because it's going to be great. That's one of the ingredients you have to work on. In the edit room, this actor was less experienced, and I had to do more setups because they couldn't carry a scene in one shot. That's what I have to work with now in the edit room. When you're in the edit room, you're cooking with the ingredients you got in the fishing expedition called shooting. That's why my students say to me, well, why am I going to get extra footage? Why am I going to get anything but the bare minimum? Why am I going to overlap in terms of, well, you think you're only going to use that angle for two lines, we'll get a line on either side of the dialog, so that you have it in case. And they say, that's not being professional. That's not being precise and accurate. And I'd say it's a fishing expedition, especially if you're starting to learn film. You don't go shopping for a party and say, I think everyone will have about 13 M&Ms. You're buy in bulk, because you're getting like, oh, it's a Halloween party, I'll need a lot of this, a lot of that and a lot of this, and then you cook it later. John 41:04You know, one of the best examples of that is connected to Judy Berlin, because as I remember, you edited that movie on the same flatbed that Annie Hall was edited on... Eric 41:18I still have it, because the contract I made with Woody Allen was that if no one ever contacted me for it, and I bore the expense of having to store it, I would keep it. And so I got it and nobody ever asked for it. Nobody uses it anymore. John 41:34But the making of that movie is exactly that. They had a lot of ingredients and they kept pulling things away to what was going to taste the best and all of a sudden, this massive thing … You know, I was just talking to another editor last weekend, o, I pulled out this, the Ralph Rosenblum's book, but... Eric 41:49Oh, yeah, I was just gonna mention that. The best book on editing ever. John 41:51Although Walter Murch's book was quite good. But this is much more nuts and bolts. Eric 41:56And much more about slapping stuff together to make art. John 42:00That one lesson of: don't spend all day on that one take over and over and over. Let's get some other angles is … Eric 42:06I'll tell you what happens. I may have said this in our first interview, but I will tell you from the inside, what happens. It's terrifying and if you start with a master, a director can get terrified, because to move on means more questions about what's next. Was it good? And you can get paralyzed in your master shot if you're shooting in that manner. And then the actors aren't doing their best work in the master, especially if it's a huge master, where there's tons of stuff going on. They're going to give you some better performance, if you intend to go in for coverage and you by the time you do that you may have lost, you know, their natural resource. They might have expended it already. I've been in that situation where I got lost in my master and you almost have to take a pin on set and hit your own thigh with it and say, wake up, wake up, move on, move on. John 42:58Yeah. All right, I got one more lesson for you, because I'm keeping you way too long. It's a really interesting one, because it's when I talked to Edie about it, she didn't know you had done it and she thought, well, maybe it helped. But Barbara Barrie played her mother in Judy Berlin, they had never met as actors, as people. And you kept them apart until they shot, because you wanted a certain stiffness between them. I just call that Using Reality to Your Advantage. What do you think about that idea now? Eric 43:25Edie isn't someone who requires it, you know, she's one of the best actresses in the world. John 43:30And Barbara Barrie wouldn't have needed it either. I'm sure. Eric 43:32She wouldn't have but I do think there's a … look. This is a funny thing about me and my evolution from Through an Open Window, which is the half hour film, to what I'm writing today. I always thought that film was interesting in the same way that I thought military psyops were interesting: that you could control or guide or influence an audience's experience of the story in ways they were unaware of. So, I always liked those hidden influencers. Even in advertising, I thought they were interesting. You see how this company only uses red and blue and suddenly you feel like, oh, this is a very, this is an American staple this product. I love that shit and after I'm done with a script, I know what I'm intending the audience's experience to be I want to find anything to help me to augment that and if you're a fan of that kind of filmmaking, would the shots have a power outside of the audience's ability to see them? They know that the story is working on them and they think the audience thinks, oh, I was just affected by the story in that great performance. They have no idea that the director has employed a multitude of tricks, depth of field to pop certain actor's faces out as opposed to wider shots that exclude are identifying with other characters, moving shots that for some reason, quote unquote some reason meaning every director is aware of how these techniques influence an audience, suddenly make you feel as if that moment in the story of the character are moving or have power have influence while other moments have nothing. In Three Backyards, funnily enough with Edie, I had a scene where Edie was, the whole, Edie's whole storyline was about her desperate, unconscious attempt to connect with this other woman who was a stranger to her. And I refused to show them in a good two shot throughout the entire film. I separated them. I made unequal singles. When their singles cut, they were unequal singles tighter and wider, until the moment that I had convinced the audience now they're going to become best friends. And I put them into their first good, easy going two shot. And that kind of manipulation is done every moment by every filmmaker directing. In one aspect it is a mute, meaning silent in an unobtrusive, persuasive visual strategy for enhancing the story. So, whether you're keeping two actors away from each other during the course of the day before their first scene, because the scene requires tension, or whether you're separating them visually until a moment late in the movie, where they come together, and they're coming together will suddenly have tension because they're in the same shot. Those kinds of persuasive manipulations are what visual storytelling, otherwise known as directing is about. John 43:33Yep, and there's a lot of tools. You just got to know about them because a lot of them you're not going to see, you won't recognize, though until somebody points out, do you realize that those two women were never really in the same shot together? Eric 47:06Every well directed movie has a strategy. Sometimes they're unconscious, but you don't want to be unconscious. As the director, you want to be smart. You want to be informed about your own process, and I think smart directors … Here's what I always say to my students: learn a lot, know a lot, then feel a lot. So, what does that mean? It's just my way of distilling a whole bunch of education down into a simple sentence. Understand what has been done and what you can do, and what are the various modes of directing and storytelling. And then when you get into your own script, feel a lot. What do I want? Why isn't it working? Add a lot of questions marks to the end of sentences. Why can't this character be more likeable? Why isn't this appealing? Why haven't I? How could I? And it's a combination of knowing a lot and being rigorously intellectual about the art form that you want to bow down before you want to bow down before what works and what doesn't work. I would say that you want to bow down before the gods of what works and what doesn't work. You know, you don't want to look them in the eye and say, screw you, I'm doing what I want. You bow down and say, I don't even understand why that didn't work. But I'll take that lesson. You want to feel a lot. You want to be open on the set. One of the hardest things to learn is how to be open on the set. You want to be open when you're writing. You want to be open when you're editing. It's a real juggling act of roles that you have to play, of being naive, being smart, being a businessperson, being a general, being a very, very wounded flower. You know, I remember reading, as a high school student, Gloria Swanson's autobiography. And then it's so many years since I read it that I might be wrong. But I remember they said what are you proudest of in your career. And she said without hesitation that I'm still vulnerable. And I didn't even know if I understood it at the time, but I get it now. You want to be smart. You want to be experienced. You want to have a lot of tools and know the tools of other directors and still be naive and vulnerable and hearable and have your emotional interior in tech. Those are hard things to ask of anyone, but if you want to be in this industry, an art form that so many greats have invested their life's work toiling in, then you owe it to yourself to be all of those things. [MUSIC TRANSTION] JohnThanks to Eric Mendelsohn for chatting with me about the lessons he learned from his debut feature, Judy Berlin. If you enjoyed this interview, you can find lots more just like it on the Fast, Cheap Movie Thoughts Blog. Plus, more interviews can be found in my books -- Fast, Cheap and Under Control -- Lessons Learned from the greatest low-budget movies of all time ... and its companion book of interviews with screenwriters, called Fast, Cheap and Written that Way. Both books can be found on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, Google and Apple Books. And while you're there, check out my mystery series of novels about magician Eli Marks and the scrapes he gets into. The entire series, staring with The Ambitious Card, can be found on those same online retailers in paperback, hardcover, ebook and audiobook formats. And if you haven't already, check out the companion to the books: Behind the Page: The Eli Marks podcast … available wherever you get your podcasts. That's it for episode 106 of The Occasional Film Podcast, which was p roduced at Grass Lake Studios. Original music by Andy Morantz. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you … occasionally!

Book mentioned: “Powwowing in Pennsylvania: Braucherei & the Ritual of Everyday Life” by Patrick J. Donmoyer https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40605053-powwowing-in-pennsylvania Eric's website is at www.ericsteinhart.com Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E27 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science: Based-Paganism. I'm your host Mark. Yucca: And I'm the other one Yucca. Mark: And today we have a very special episode of The Wonder. We're really excited to discuss urban paganism with two guests from New York City, Joh and Eric Steinhart. And so welcome to both of you. Eric: Hello. Joh: Hi, thank you so much for having us great to be here. Mark: really delighted to have you, so I guess, to get started why don't we just ask you to tell us a bit about yourselves? How did you come to non paganism? You wanna start Joh? Joh: Sure. My name is Joh. I've lived in New York for about 16 years. My path is very new. It's only about four years old. I've always been drawn to certain. Aesthetics around the occult I was a teen goth in the nineties, which perfect for that, but I never, I never really thought that I fit into any of those paths. I couldn't put my finger on why. A few years ago I purchased a, a beginner's book on, on witchcraft and developing your own identity as a witch. I got it just for fun, for a long train ride. There's a bit in there in the beginning that outlines different kinds of witches or witchcraft like green witches, kitchen, witches, chaos, magic, wicca. I'd heard some of these. Terms before, but they're described very plainly in the book and it gave me a little bit of a glimpse into how vast of a world paganism might be that I didn't know anything about, or I hadn't realized. So I started reading a lot more about developing a practice, but still didn't really feel like I fit in. I couldn't relate to the belief system parts. And in one of my internet rabbit holes, I learned about the book godless paganism, which described paganism from a more science based lens. And I just got really excited about what that sounded like. So I ordered it to my local bookstore and I devoured that book, the concepts, it taught me even more about how personal one's path can be and that there is this little corner of this world that felt like a fit and like I could belong. So then I started looking for a community because I was so excited and I wanted to talk about it with people. And I was clicking on links and links and links online and finally found the atheopagan Facebook group, which was the first active community that I had found that actually had recent activity in there. So I, I joined and I've been in that community for about two to three years, and it's just such an incredibly supportive, inspiring place that gives me ideas of how to develop my practice even more. And you know, now fast forward to today, I'm just really grateful to have found this community and group and little subset of of the path. Mark: That's great. Thank you. Yucca: Yeah, Eric, what about you? Eric: Yeah. So, I mean, I come from a very strange place. I mean, I'm Pennsylvania, German and Pennsylvania, German culture often known as Pennsylvania, Dutch, but we're not Dutch. We're Germans. And that culture is a magical culture and, you know, magic was normalized in that culture from the very beginning from its very roots. And so I grew up with a lot of that stuff. I mean, I grew up in, in a culture that was filled with magical practices of all sorts. And I mean, nominally, I mean, you know, nominally explicitly a Christian culture, but probably a lot of Christians would say, no, you know, you guys are doing some weird stuff. And, you know, I, I became attracted to science and early on and, you know, just don't really have a theistic worldview at all. So combining some of those things got me and I, you know, and I was in, I was involved sort of in, in atheist movements for a while and found a lot of atheism to be kind of, practically shallow, you know, there's, it's like, yeah, after you're done being mad at God, what do you do then? I mean, and there was like nothing. And you know, my, I would always say things like, look, there's no atheist art. You know, there's like atheist music, you know, there's just, you know, there's, there's no culture, right. Or the culture is, and more and more people have observed this. It's kind of parasitic on Christianity in a way. And so I found that very unsatisfying, right? Certainly I know plenty of atheists. I'm a philosopher, I'm a philosophy professor and I know plenty of, you know, professional atheists and all they do is talk about God. And so I'm like, look, I don't wanna talk about God. Let's let's let's talk about something else. Let's do something else. And I found that paganism in various forms, it was just kind of, kind of starting, but in various forms, you know, had a culture had art, had aesthetics, had practices, had symbols had a fairly rich worked out way of life. And as a philosopher, you know, I've got plenty of training in ancient cultures, particularly Greek and Roman but also also Germanic. And you know, I just thought, oh, This stuff, all kind of fits together. And so I became very interested in thinking about ways and I've advocated among atheists to say things like, look, you guys have to start. And, and, and women too, you've gotta start building a culture and you can't build a culture of negativity, you know, a culture of no, a culture and especially not a culture. That's essentially a mirror image of Christianity that all you're doing is talking about God. And you know, I've had a little success there, but it's a, it's a tough hall. But I think more and more something like a kind of atheopagan could really be a live option for the future of lots of aspects of American culture, right? As people become de Christianized, what are they gonna do? And some people say, well, they're just gonna be secular. But that's not really an answer and that's not a culture. And as you start looking around, you start to see these other cultures that are kind of bubbling up and developing. So yeah, I mean, I came to it from, you know, both the sort of old ethnic, Pennsylvania, German angle, the kind of philosophy and science angle and dissatisfaction with you know, sort of mainstream atheism. So lots of different roads in Yucca: Wow. That's a, that's a really interesting path to, to come on. So it'd be interesting hear more about the practice, the magical kind of practices that you talked about. Eric: well, there's a good, there's a good book by this guy, Patrick, Don moer called pow wowing. So you can check that out. It's incredibly rich and incredibly weird stuff, you know, Yucca: well, we'll find that and put it in the show notes. If people wanna take a look at it. Eric: Right. Mark: Yeah. Well, both of your stories are really very interesting that way in, in in that identification of Something being missing, but the, the main, the main offerings that are, that surround us in our culture, not really fitting that hole. That's certainly what I found as well, you know, and it's the reason that I wrote the essay that first started out a paganism. And I, I should probably introduce at this point that Eric, you, you especially have been involved with various non theist pagan efforts since long before I wrote that essay I just was, did a poor job of research and didn't find the other naturalistic non-theistic paganism efforts that were being done around the world. Until after I had already, you know, published and was starting to get attention for atheopagan So, as urban pagans living in the city what do your practices look like? Joh, you wanna, you wanna start on that? Joh: Sure. My practice may not be super urban sounding, but, but. There's some stuff about like spots in the city that, that I do. But generally my, my daily practice is in the morning. My apartment faces east and I wake up early enough to catch the sunrise every day. And I'll kind of first just stare at stare at it and kind of greet the sky every morning. I do stretches to start the day and I position my mat to face that window so that I can really connect with the day while I'm waking up. I have a small focus that I decorate seasonally. I really connect with ritual and the different physical objects around my practice, probably because I was raised Catholic and I always loved the sacred spaces, the incense, the bells, the rituals, and the regalia of it all. So it's a very tangible practice for me. And I have a. Personal calendar with the, the, you know, the solstice and the equinoxes in it. But also with other days that are very personal to me. Like I celebrate Freddie Mercury's birthday every year, for example, and, and the anniversary of when I move to New York and I'll actually take that day off of work and like use that whole day to really explore parts of the city that I love. And don't as easily make time for during the rest of the year. And then I also try to cook and eat seasonally as much as possible and really understand what the, what the ecology of this region is like. And I made this spreadsheet that tells me what's in season around here based on what month it is. It makes it easier to shop for and plan meals and things like that. Mark: Hm. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: Wow. That's a lot. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah, that's very cool. Thank you, Joh. Yucca: you have any parks nearby that you go to? Is that part of your practice or more? Just the relationship with the city and the sky. Joh: There is a really beautiful community garden in my neighborhood. That's open to the public a couple of days a week, and sometimes I'll walk there or ride my bike there and just kind of slowly walk down the paths and see how everyone's set up their plots and what they're growing. And there are bees everywhere and some benches off to the side. So sometimes I'll sit there and journal a little bit, or just kind of stare into space. And, you know, the people who have plots there are required to volunteer, you know, certain number of hours every week. And there's this section at the end where you can see everyone composting and things like that. So there's that piece. And then. In the city as well. There are different ways. Speaking of composting, that you can participate in kind of that cycle. So you can go to a drop off spot and bring your food scraps and they'll compost them and, and then use that for the public parks and things like that. Yucca: Oh, nice. Joh: that's like another way that allows me to feel more connected to the public parks and spaces of nature that are kind of engineered in such a dense area. Mark: Uhhuh. Nice. Nice. Eric. How about your practice? Eric: Yeah. I mean, my practices are probably a little too intellectual. I mean, one of my main practices is trying to figure out how all this stuff can work out and how to make sense of, of, of pagan ideas and practices. Right. That's cuz I'm a philosopher. That's what I do. I mean I do have a little I have a little altar and I do, you know, things, things like that, but I, I do try to think. A lot about how what paganism means and what kind of pagan concepts are relevant, for instance, in an urban context, right? I mean, cities are not trying to be forests. That's not what they're trying to do. They're not. And, and, you know, trying to work out pagan contexts or concepts and beliefs and practices in an urban setting it may, you, you have to think a little bit differently, right. Because there's a lot of you know, what you might call mainstream paganism that has a very I think very biased view of what paganism is or should be like we're all supposed to be farmers or, or, or Amish or something. I mean, I grew up with the Amish, you know, I mean, so I'm like, no, no, I know what that is. And so, you know, thinking of the ways that that cities are natural spaces and that cities are ecosystems not because they're trying to be, you know, a national park, right. I mean, and there's more and more wonderful research among, you know, biologists and ecologists of, of how cities themselves are ecosystems, you know, they are not, they're not phony ecosystems like, oh, New York. City's great because it's got central park. No, you know, the, the city isn't eco, I mean more and more research onto this is fascinating stuff because you're finding all these species, not just humans, humans are a natural species, but you know, raccoons, cougars, coyotes, you know, and New York city has there, there's beautiful research that's been done in New York city. Right. We have herds of deer. Wandering the city. We have, you know, foxes. I mentioned the, the raccoons, I think the bird life in New York city is, you know, and so you find things like, and there's a term for this, a technical term for these kinds of critters, right. Sin, Andros, right. These are animals that have adapted to humans and now live. They flourish with humans. They flourish in cities, right? So, New York city for instance, is an extraordinary place to be a Raptor, a bird of prey, right? New York city has some of the highest Paran, Falcon and Hawk populations anywhere. Right? Because they love the tall buildings. They love the bridges. Like the bridges are filled with Paragon, Falcon nests. And you're like, yeah, these, you know, life is adaptive. And So I try to think of all the ways that we live together with all these things in the cities and how humans have made a home, not just for humans, but for, for a whole ecosystem of, of critters. And, you know, like urban raccoons are not like rural raccoons, right. They've things. Right. And it's really interesting, you know, and people study this, you know, scientists, they study like how cities are driving bur particularly birds and raccoons. Are the species been studied most to become more intelligent, they're learning how to solve all sorts of problems. Right. So, so I find, you know, so part of, I guess my practice is sort of learning about that, observing that, thinking about ways that I mean, we haven't, we have a general issue. In the United States, right. Which is that so much of our space and structure is thoroughly Christianized. And it's not an easy thing to say, oh, well, let's, we're, you know, we're just gonna do something different, right. When all of your space is structured around a certain way of life. And so, you know, I, I try to think about ways that we can think of all kind like, okay, the four elements, you know, fire earth, air and water for me, light, you know, how do those relate in an urban context, right? Then in the, in a great way in New York city, you know, you can actually go into the earth. You know, in ways that most ordinary people can't right. And you can go deep into the earth right. In the, in the subways. I mean, you can do that on a daily basis. Right. And you can, you know, I mean, being stuck on a subway, train deep in the earth right. Is a way to like, encounter something that's terrifying and forceful. So how do you think of that sort of thing in, in a, in pagan ways, right? How do you think of, I mean, New York city is also very close to water. I mean, that's the reason the city exists. Right. It's one of the greatest bays in the world. We have dolphins, we have whales in the Hudson seals thinking of that kind of life as part of the city too. And I'll mention one other thing, thinking of things like, I don't know if people know about, I mean, you know, about Manhattan henge. Right. So, so you've got, you know, you've got structures there that people recently have started to say things like, Hey, we Stonehenge, we have Manhattan henge. You know, we have a, we have a thing and it wasn't designed that way, but Mark: Eric, would you like to explain what that is for our listeners? That don't know what it is? Eric: Yeah, Manhattan henge because Manhattan, the you know, the streets are in a sort of Southeast Northwest orientation. There are two times of the year when the sun come, you know, if you're stand on 42nd street in the middle and you've got skyscrapers on either side, my head is the sun, right. And the son just comes down between, you know, vertically between the skyscrapers and sets, right. You know, across the water sort of like Stonehenge, right? Like coming down between these monoliths. And I've seen it is, is really incredible. And people, you know, thousands and thousands of people go out in the streets to photograph it. And Thinking about ways that that kind of stuff can develop. And it might not be stuff that somebody says explicitly like, oh, this is pagan, like it's Wiccan or ARU or drew it, or, or whatever, or witchy witchcraft or something, but these are cultural things that people start to do. Right. And if you start to look around, you see all kinds of little shrines in the city, you know, I mean, there are, there are some obvious big ones in the statue of liberties, like a big pagan statue. And there are statues of old Greek and Roman deities in the city. There's like, mercury and Atlas are down at Rockefeller center, right? There's a statue of pan at Columbia university there. These, you know, these things exist. And not to, I mean, I, I think also, you know, a lot of urban places in a sort of practical sense of things to do things like art museums, right. Where you can go in, in New York, the metropolitan museum, and you can see lots of in fact they just are now having a big show on what old pagan statues used to look like. Right. Because they weren't white, they weren't white Mar they were painted. Right. They were dye. And so they've taken a bunch of them made replicas and they could still find microscopic traces of these dyes in the rock. And so they've now repainted them as they looked. So I'll go see that soon. So there's lots of opportunities for people to do all kinds of things. And I, and I real, but I really do think that. There's a, still a need to develop a lot of cultural infrastructure, right? You could go out in central park and, and do some ritual on the solstice or something, but that's really not. That to me is like something that sort of slides right off the surface of the culture, cuz it doesn't have any connections to things. There used to be some larger connections before COVID there was a network of drum circles. I don't know if people had been to prospect park in Brooklyn, there were some immense, there was immense drum drum stuff going on there. COVID kind of brought an end to a lot of that. So we'll see how that starts up, but I, I think there's a lot of There's there's a lot of thing. And if you do wanna go out in, in you know, in a kind of less urban environment, you know, New York city is actually is the highest density of Woodland trails over 2000 miles of trails within a 60 mile radius of the city, cuz the Appalachian mountains just arc right across the north. Mark: Right. Eric: And so you can, you can, yeah. It's the highest concentration of Woodland parks and trails anywhere in the United States. Mark: Wow. Eric: There's a lot, there's a lot still to be done. And I think I'll just, I'll just leave off with that. Mark: I was that's. Yeah. There's so much to say there. I mean, you mentioned the met and it's that talk about sacred spaces? I, I mean, the metropolitan museum of art is one of the great sacred spaces of the world. It's like a shrine to all human culture. Joh, I, I know you live in Queens, so I imagine you get to the Cloisters which is another super sacred space for me. This is kind of out of order of the, the questions that we talked about doing, but are there specific places or sacred spaces that you think of? When you, when you think about urban paganism in your city, Joh: Yeah. One thing that New York really does well is bigness. There are a few very stereotypically New York spaces that I have like religious experiences and in their giant. So the inside of grand central terminal is one of them. It's massive. It's echoy. The ceiling is painted with this beautiful night sky scene with the Zodiac constellations on it. Part of what feels so humbling being in there is going off of something. Eric said before is knowing that it's also this hub of this massive living transportation network that enables the movement of thousands, millions of people within this tri-state area. Another one is the branch of the New York public library with the very iconic lions out front it's, it's a beautiful piece of architecture. It's also inside cavernous full of this beautiful art, larger than life and quiet. It's really like church almost. You feel like when you're in there, cuz you have this like reverence and respect and gratitude for all of this knowledge that's contained in there and that it's free. Like you can just go and like getting a card is free. It's it still blows my mind. This one is pretty kind of cliche, but the empire state building it's so tall, but the city is so dense that I never expect to see it when I do so I'll be walking somewhere, probably distracted, multitasking, and then I'll look up and it'll just be there in front of my face. And it's this like instantly calming moment for me and kind of resets me in whatever's going on in life at the time. And then there's like smaller little smaller spots. Like there's a Steinway piano showroom near times square that I like to go visit. I play the piano and it's a really silencing experience, even though it's so busy around there and, and crowded and, and loud, but just to stand outside and gaze in at these beautiful pianos that are handmade just across the river in Queens, like it's really, really cool how accessible places like this are because of that, you know, that network that connects, although the parts of the city, so well, the subway. So yeah, those are, those are a few that come to mind. how about you? Eric: Yeah, I think, I think Joh says some great things. I mean, one point there is like the urban sublime, right? Like these, you know, towers that rise to infinity. I mean, it, you can have a kind of experience. That's hard to get anywhere else. If you go like up to the observation deck on the, you know, the freedom tower that replace the world trade centers or the empire state building or Rockefeller center, right. You go up on tops of these things and you see, you know, from a. Point, and that kind of space is you know, I mean, it's commercial, right? You pay, you're going up to the top of, of a skyscraper, but you, it can induce kinds of experiences that are hard to get elsewhere. And sure, grand central station, that's like a great example of a kind of space that's already, you know, sort of semi pagan in its kind of classical thing. Like the Zodiac is there and it's this immense space and you can, you can go in and just be you can experience awe and, and, and humbleness and things like that. A lot in the city. And I think, you know, especially when I first started coming to the city and, and probably a lot of people would have a similar experience. You, you just feel overwhelmed. I mean, the, the sheer size of these things that are around you and unlike I mean, other cities have some of this, but you know, it's not like in New York city, you can walk, you walk a few blocks and you're out. Right. I mean, if you're in Manhattan, you can walk for like 12 miles through this amenity and you're sort of like, I mean, it's, it's humbling. So I think that, I think, and I think there's a lot of symbolism that goes into that. I'll mention that there have been a couple of urban terror decks, right? That use, I mean, if you think of the tower and you think of just, well, the tower, you know, or you think of things like that, there have been some there have been, there are a couple of urban TA decks, some better than others, but you know, people are, and this is what I think about the cultural infrastructure. People are starting to build that kind of thing. Right. And start to see these symbolisms in these, in these places. So, yeah, that, I like, I like that. What Joh said about sort of the urban sublime and what mark, you said about kind of these museums that hold all this, this cultural stuff and. You know, I often think of, of paganism in terms of the symbolic, right. Rather than you know, I'm not much for, for ancient, ancient roots. That, that seems a little racist to me. I'm more into thinking about the future and thinking about things like, you know, if I think about superhuman minds, right? I mean, the city itself is like a high of mind. You know, the city itself is a super organism. It's a superhuman intelligence. Right. And, and things like me, I'm just like a little sell in this organism. I'm passing through contributing something to it, but the, the amount of energy that flows through San Francisco or New York, or, you know, something like that is astonishing. Mark: Yes. Eric: And it's it's information too. I mean, places like, okay. New York, Tokyo, you know, San Francisco, you know, are, are some of the most information rich places on the planet. Mark: London, Hong Kong. Eric: Right. And, and so if you think of like, you know, you think of a deity like mercury or somebody like, or thought, or Glen, you know, these, you may think of these divine minds and these patterns of information. I mean, I prefer to leave those Dees in the past where they lived, but now you look at super, if you want a symbol, cuz for me, a lot of this is symbolic. If you want symbolism for superhuman intelligence, you know, superhuman mind a superhuman agency, right? I mean the place to one place to find that there are other places, but one place to find that is in the, you know, the rich information flows the density of information flows in cities. Mark: Mm-hmm Eric: Right? You, you can really, you can, you don't have to think like, I mean, Okay. I lived in New York city. This means I am part of something that is immense it's 400 years old. It's I don't know how long it'll last, but you know, so many people have contributed to it and you're there you feel it you're like, yeah, I there's this thing, you know, it's immense, I'm a tiny little part of this huge thing. So. Mark: and, and I think that's really well said, and it also, it extends beyond the bounds of New York city so much. I mean, I, I think about watching old movies where pretty much everybody came from New York or their immediate family came through New York. It's like the entire culture of the United States is deeply informed by this urban collective experience that then spread throughout the rest of the country. I was thinking about, you were talking about culture and of course, city is where the culture is, right? I mean, there's culture everywhere, but big cities are there're places where it's easier for people that are cultural creatives to make it. There are more opportunities for them to, to make a living. And it reminded me, I've lived in two big cities in my life. I've lived in San Francisco and in Barcelona. And one of the things that attracted me the most about both of those places is busking in the underground. Eric: Oh  Mark: the, the caliber of musical performance that you can experience. Just at random, you know, by stepping off of a train and suddenly finding yourself surrounded by it is it's like this, this spontaneous moment of, you know, truly religious kind of joy to me. And it's, it's one of the things that leaps immediately to mind to me, when I think about my fondness for those cities, right. Eric: Yeah. I mean, I, I think, and maybe Joh can speak to this too. I mean, the you know, thinking of those of those spaces where you can go and, and, and hear music and often the, the cultural thing is, is mixtures of cultures too, like in San Francisco or Chicago or New York. I mean, I can, you know, there are all these little I think, was it, Joh, did you mention Centia, did somebody mention that somebody mentioned that, but you know, there are all these, there are all these, you know, Afro-Caribbean cultures that have come into New York city and you could find all these little things, like all over the streets. You know, and they have some, you know, Afro-Caribbean significance and there they are. Right. And so you already find lots of, you know, there are lots of alternatives to a dominant, this sort of dominant Christian narrative. There are lots of alternatives already in these urban spaces, right. That come from from other other sources. Joh: I was actually also thinking about the, the mixture of different cultures. When thinking about some of the places that I like to visit there, there are a couple of neighborhoods in downtown Manhattan that I like to just I'm drawn to them. And I just like to walk around in and think about. The history and evolution of culture in those neighborhoods, like the history of music, of counterculture, of the different immigrant communities that settled there over time and everywhere you look, you can see little remnants of all this history from like a German inscription in the brick facade of a building or a plaque telling you that Charlie Parker lived in that building a 24-hour Ukrainian diner founded by refugees in the sixties that like still you know, still you can't, you it's always a weight. So there's that, there's that kind of magic too. And then I think just walkable urbanism in general, like increases the likelihood that you'll have chance encounters with not just different cultures, but like different kinds of people who are living different lives from you. Like. There's a community of local businesses and neighbors, and then the city workers, and it's all happening all in the same space. Like there's no alleyways in New York city. There's like two in the whole city. And so all that stuff is, and activity is just running up against itself and like keeping the environment running and thriving and kind of with this magical energy all the time. Mark: Yeah. And, and when you think about that, when you think about all those different cultures and different sort of value systems and so forth, all kind of coming together and finding a way to coexist, then it's no surprise that it's the cities that are the blue parts of the United States, right? It's like in the cities, people have figured out how to get along, cuz they have to, there's no choice about it, Joh: Yeah. And to coexist peacefully. Mark: And eventually to thrive. I mean, not, not just to coexist, but I to actually have melding of cultures and you know, new and interesting combinations of stuff like jazz, for example in new Orleans and New York and Chicago. Anyway, I, I don't know where I was going with that, but it, it occurs to me that the, the values that we associate with paganism, right? The inclusiveness, the tolerance, the the appreciation for beauty and culture and diversity and all those things, they really thrive more in the cities than they do in the, in the rural areas, which we think of as more natural, right. Eric: Yeah. I mean, that's a weird, you know, you find that kind of, to me, very, almost paradoxical or contradictory view in a lot of paganism, which is like, oh, the rural environment is the pagan environment. And you're like, no, the rural environment is filled with fundamentalists, man. Mark: Well, not entirely, not, not Yucca. Eric: nah, well, I mean sure, but, but still it's it's yeah, I mean, if you have a sort of polycentric culture where you've got lots of different cultures and lots of different religious ideas and lots of TISM lots of mixing of different religious ideas and you've got, you know, intelligent raccoons and, and you know, sparrows and yeah. Racoons have little hands, you know, they're learning to work stuff. They're gonna, that's what we're that's what's gonna take over after we're gone. You know, so, so I think that that's already seeing the multiplicity. I, I think of paganism often in terms of multiplicity, instead of, you know, unity, it's like, yeah, there are, there are many perfections and many ways to bring those together and, and integrate them into a system without, you know, reducing 'em to a, to like everybody has to act the same, you know? And I do think so. I think in, in that sense mark, what you said yeah. About cities having that, all those combinations right. Are really good. Really good. I don't think we're quite there yet in trying to figure out what, you know, the sort of next culture is gonna be, but won't happen in my lifetime, but I, I hope it will happen. So. Yucca: One of the things to kind of shift a little bit that, or some qualities that are usually not associated with urban environments that sometimes are, are highly valued in certain pagan circles are things like solitude and stillness and quietness. And those are things that I'm curious. Do you feel like. It is a fair assessment. That that's not something that really happens in urban environments. And also, is that something important in your practice? If it is, how is that something that is a pagan you, you search out or cultivate in your life? Joh: This made me think of something really specific. So it's actually, I feel like one thing that happens here is there's so much stimuli going on all the time. That it's actually, for me, at least fairly easy to, to, to be find myself in solitude. I, I live alone and You know, during the pandemic, especially, I didn't see anybody. And it was, it was very quiet. Actually, if you, you know, if you live in a more busy part of the city and you have an apartment facing the back of the building, that's like a sign that it's gonna be quiet. It actually can get really quiet here, surprisingly. But one thing that I don't know, I think this happened in multiple places around the world, in the beginning of the pandemic, but this, this thing started happening here where at 7:00 PM every day, everyone would leave their apartment and go outside and start clapping for the healthcare workers and essential workers who were actually having to still leave their apartments and help the city run. And this happened for months and months, every day at 7:00 PM, everyone would go outside and start clapping and, and it really helped, I think with the. Precarious kind of mental health situation that we were all finding ourselves in because we were trapped in these tiny boxes for so long, like scared of going outside because of the density and everything. And it helped us feel kind of alone together in a way. So that, that goes veers a little bit off of what you were asking, but I think it's actually not that it's pretty easy to find that piece and that, that that quiet and solitude if you if you try, like, not during a global pandemic, but but yeah, that just my mind kind of went there when you asked that. Eric: I think that was, that was a, a great place to go. I mean, I remember that we didn't go outside, but we leaned out our windows and banged on pots and pans, you know? And that's that was kind of a collective ritual. Mark: Yeah. Eric: I mean, it kind of, I mean, it was a collective ritual and I think, you know, I, I wonder about some of that solitude or something. I mean, certainly in, in lots of urban areas, there's a lot more, I think maybe I'm maybe I'm wrong here, but you know, a lot of collective action, there's a lot of political awareness political activity. And maybe that solitude, isn't quite what people are wanting. Right. Because it's not like I'm gonna go into myself and, and I'm gonna go, I mean, cities face outward, right. I mean, and that energy gets radiated outward. And I, I probably, if I had to think of my most well, you know, the two very pagan moments in New York city, both were musical. One was when I heard the band high long in New York, which was. You know, almost surreal in the, in the, the juxtaposition of this, this high, long shamanistic, you know, whatever they're trying to bring up. And it's in, it's in a theater in Manhattan and there are thousands of us there and we're all chanting and clapping and dancing and stuff like that. But probably even, even a little more, you know, pagan than high, long was like one time when I went to a Patty Smith concert in Manhattan. And that was just an, you know, an, I don't like to use this word, but that was intense. You know? I mean, that was something that was, I've been to a bunches of concerts and that was, you know, everyone just collectively this was, I think the 50th anniversary of her horses album and that's what they played. Mark: Oh, Eric: Right. And everyone knew all the words of course, and everyone was simply. Well, like in this unison and that's already you know, Patty Smith's already like, what space is she in with with these kinds of cultural things? You know? So I, I think there's a lot of opportunities for those kinds of collective mu I mean, music is one, art is one political, you know, political gatherings are be they protests or just activist gatherings.  Mark: Dancing thing. Eric: Dancing. Yeah. All those kinds of activities really happen in, in cities. So I wouldn't go with the no, I mean, yeah, like, I mean, Joh was right. You can be solitary in the city if you want to. I mean, it's probably more solitary there than anywhere else. Right. Because it's certainly in New York because you know, if you're not engaged, like nobody's gonna talk to you. Mark: Yeah. Eric: Right. I mean, they're gonna leave you alone. And but I, I do think that there is an enormous amount of col I mean, that's the point of a city it's collective activity. Right. You know, I lived on a farm. I know what I know what rural isolation is. Like I, you know, I don't wanna do that ever, ever again, so yeah, I dunno if that answers that, but there you go. Mark: You know, it occurs to me when you talk about that. When I was, when I was in late high school and, and into my first couple of years of college, I was really into punk rock. And of course I was living, you know, very close to San Francisco and there was a huge punk rock scene there at the Maha gardens and some other places. And so I saw a ton of shows and one of the things that always struck me was these bands never come 60 miles north to where I live. They, they don't leave an urban environment. Right. Because punk lives in the cities and and many of those concerts were truly ecstatic experiences. Eric: Right. Mark: I, I mean, the mosh pit was just this glorious experience of mutual trust, where we knew we weren't going to hurt one another, but we were going to fling one another around. My partner NAEA tells a story about being in a pit in Philadelphia where somebody lost a contact lens and the entire pit sort of went who to make a space so that they could find their contact lens. And they actually did find their contact lens. So, you know, it very, I mean, there's a, there's a very abrasive kind of quality to the punk aesthetic, but really people who cared about one another and, you know, were, were part of something. And that was very much an urban experience. Yucca: Hmm. Eric: Right, right. I mean, I think you, can you get that kind of you get those kinds of energies and a lot of that so far is kind of aesthetic, right? Music, art, dancing, things like architecture, you know? And, and it'll be interesting to see, you know, people translating that more. You know, that's why, I mean, I think for instance, sort of the pagan music is really interesting and the ways that that can go. And different kinds of artistic expressions. And one of the things we didn't really talk about, which I think of as kind of pagan is sort of the, the visionary community, right? The transformational festivals and, and, you know, visionary art and that stuff, which to, to my mind, is in entirely a pagan culture, a pagan subculture. And that's, that's there too. Right? A lot of that is in urban areas. Also in New York city, there was an San Francisco too, I believe, but they're a big, you know, I think of stoicism as, as a pagan movement, contemporary stoicism, and there's an enormous enormously rich stoic groups in in New York. San Francisco comes to mind and a few, there are a few other cities that have, but yeah, San Francisco certainly has all this transformative tech stuff.  Mark: And the, the whole burning man phenomenon, which is really interesting when you think about it. Because a lot of the people who go to burning, man, don't come from urban centers, but they have to build a city Eric: right. Mark: in order to have. The kind of crucible of creativity that they want. And burning man is a very pagan experience in, in at least the one time I was there. It definitely was not necessarily in a worshipful kind of way, but in a, in a cultural way, the, the kind of mutuality and celebration and expressiveness and creativity that you have in those kinds of environments are they remind me of the pagan community. And of course there's a lot of people there who are pagans. Eric: Oh yeah. Yucca: A lot of rituals. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Eric: Yeah, that's gotta be like a paradigm case of how to do religion differently than it was done before. Right. And yeah, I mean, I teach a lot about burning man and you know, I always say to my students, I'm like, well, what do you think a new religion would look like? It's not gonna look like the old ones, you know? And you find, I mean, there's a lot of that around, I mean, that's, that's obviously closely connected with San Francisco, but there is a lot of that around not just burning man, but there's a, there's lots of places around New York city that are filled with that kind of stuff. I mean, yeah. I'm thinking in particular of like Alex Gray's chapel of sacred mirrors, Mark: mm-hmm Eric: which, which used to be in Manhattan, Joh, did you ever see that? Joh: No, I didn't. Unfortunately. Eric: It used to be in Manhattan. And now it's moved up the river into the Hudson valley and COVID kind of shut it down, but that guy used to have like weekly I'll just say raves at his place. Right. Wa in Weiner's falls check an hour north of the city. So, so that stuff is all around. Right. And it will be interesting to see if it gets more, you know, as things go on, if it gets, I mean, maybe it will just remain at a kind of level where it's people doing aesthetic things. Right. And they'll come together in these kind of groups and maybe it'll get more organized. I don't know. Mark: Hmm. Eric: Yeah, go to go to, Wappinger go to the chapel. I can't wait till the chapel sacred mirrors opens up again. I went with my, my friend, my friend of mine, Pete, and there was something about, I don't know what, you know, iowaska or something. And Pete looked at me and said, I didn't think this guy would be into drugs if you know, Alex Mark: Alex Gray. Really? Eric: yeah. It's like, Mark: the man who envisions gigantic halos of color all around the human form. Eric: you know, like 47 eyeballs, you know, like yeah, right. A little irony. But you know, that's, that's you know, it's all around and you know, maybe people don't conceive of it as pagan in a unified way, but maybe they should. Right. So we'll, we'll see where that goes. Mark: And I think, you know, the other part of it is that people are looking for rituals for, for shared communal experiences. Some of which we've just been talking about, but even people that are doing rituals in a more formally pagan kind of way, they have a much easier time finding others of like mind in a city than they do in an area like mine. For example, even though I'm close to San Francisco and there's a pretty large population of pagans here there's exactly one atheopagan other than me living in my county to my knowledge. Oh, that's not true four, there, there there's four of us, including me. And that's a, you know, there's half a million people living in my county, so yeah. Cities become this focus of such energy and, and collaboration. Eric: Yeah, I think they might. I mean, I, I, you know, there's probably like, you know, 7 million atheopagan in, in New York city. They just don't call themselves that. Mark: Huh? Eric: Right. And I think that's an inter I don't know if that's quite true, but it's, I think an interesting point, right? That you have people that are maybe nominally secular, but yet they do all these kinds of things. Right. And they don't I mean, I make contact with this through my students. Right. Who don't identify as, you know, pagan or atheists, but yet they're doing all sorts of they, you know, if you ask them, do they believe in God? No, but they don't identify as atheists. It's just, they just, they just don't do that stuff, but then they do all kinds of other things. Right. And you know, they, they do all sorts of, I mean, witchcraft was a kind of popular thing. I don't know if it still is, but they do things right. And they have all sorts of little rituals. Some of which are, are, come from family, traditions, others, you know, they do strange things with crystals, with their cell phones. Right. Those kinds of things could easily become more you know, a little deeper and a little more widespread where people start to think organically like, oh, what? And sometimes they might just not say, no, I'm not doing anything religious because they think of religion as Christianity and maybe they're right. And maybe that's right. And so I do find it an interesting point. That you say like, yeah, there might be a lot of atheopagan around you. They just don't call themselves that, Mark: right. Eric: you know, and they don't, you know, I mean, I know Masimo is a big leader of the stoic community and we just have this debate about whether or not he was a pagan. He'd be like, no, cuz that's like star Hawk. And I was like, no, dude, you're reviving, you're reviving an ancient pagan way of life, which is, oh, by the way, your own family history by your own admission, you know? And he's kind of like, like, guess that's true, you know? But he wouldn't call himself a pagan. Right. But he's doing the thing. So I, I do. And all those people out in San Francisco who do like the transformative text stuff and. A lot of the kind of consciousness hacking and things that goes into like some Americanized forms of Buddhism and things like that. That's, you know, there just might not be a single word for it yet. Mark: Sure sure. And all the, all the tech millionaires going to south America for iowaska ceremonies, you know, I mean, these, these are not the, the men who founded IBM in the 1950s and all wore an identical blue suit with a white shirt and tie. You know, this is, this is a very, very different culture that we've got now. Eric: Yeah. I think so. Was there, Joh, were you gonna say it, that it looked like you were gonna say a thing. Joh: The thing you were the thing you said about, you know, there, there might be 7 million Athens here, but they don't call it that. I just keep thinking about that because there's so many parts about like the set of values and the just human universal human needs, or like seeking for community for for ritual. The I've, I've seen acts of service, like in the past couple of years, like just becoming more community based here, like mutual aid, community fridges things like that. And, and what you were describing, like not, not your IBM founder, you know, people kind of looking for more right. Trying to. To look for more meaning it's all these little pieces kind of just existing at the same time, but not being named in any way. Eric: Yeah, or people aren't quite sure. That's why I think that, you know, building a cultural infrastructure, you know, some way to fit things together that says, oh, you guys are all have a lot in common. Right. I don't Joh, maybe, you know, maybe you're tapped into the secret networks. I mean, I don't know, like allegedly there's a zillion you know, iowaska rituals, like all the time in New York or there were before the pandemic. I don't know what the Panda, I mean, the pandemic transformed so much. There are big psychedelic conferences in New York, right? The the horizons which I've gone to. And but I, I don't know if this stuff is all, is all, you know, secret or, or not. Mark: Well, it seems as though we're at a time where culture and particularly the monopoly of Christianity has really shattered. And of course it's rebelling right now and trying to lock down everything it possibly can, as it loses its grip on the population. But there are all these fragments of things that are kind of floating around. It's like the accretion disc around a star, you know, Those things are going to, to glom onto one another and get bigger and bigger. And some of them will just spin off into space and be their own thing or dissolve. But I feel like nontheistic paganism is a kind of an organizing principle that a lot of these things can fit under because it provides meaning it provides pleasurable activities that people find joyful, provides opportunities for people to be expressive and to create family in whatever form that is meaningful and helpful to them. So it's, it's kind of an exciting time and I, I agree with you, Eric. We're not gonna see the outcome in our lifetimes. I don't think, but this, I think we're at a really pivotal time in this moment. And so working to be a culture creator is a really exciting thing. Eric: Yeah, I think that's true. And I, I mean, sure. I mean, I think that you know, and I don't know what to make of this as a, you know, an American who's growing older, but yeah, the, the sort of angry Christian nationalists trying to lock down what they can. And I don't know what it's like to live in, you know, Tennessee or Georgia or Indiana. I lived in the Northeast and, you know, Pennsylvania's an interesting case too, but I mean, you know, New York and north and east, it's like, Christianity's gone. Mark: Yeah. Eric: It's like, it's not here anymore. And I don't know if California or the west coast is that way. Certainly you have pockets here and there, but what a strange, yeah, that's just strange, Mark: After 2000 years of complete hegemony, right? Eric: Well, right. And you know, how are people living their lives around that? I mean, one of the things I like to do is catalog the existence of stone circles in the United States, you know? And like they're all over the place. I just found one like three miles from where I am now, Mark: Wow. Eric: know? I mean, and so what are people doing? Like what, Mark: It's a lot of work to build a stone circle. They must be doing something. Yucca: Is this is this in a park. Eric: No, this is on private land, up in the Hudson valley, you know, and I, and I just, just learned about it and you know, so I, I, I think we're all gonna, my prediction is we're everybody's gonna smoke weed and look at birds that's gonna be the, that's gonna be the thing, you know, bird. Now he's a bird, you know, now that now that weed is legal, but yeah. Where's this gonna go, Joh? You're young. It's up to you. Mark: Yucca is young Eric: Yucca is young too. That's right. You guys are young. Not, not is old, old foggy like us. Mark: Yeah. Eric: So what are you gonna do? I telescopes you got it all there. Yucca: Oh, yeah, I'm a science teacher. that's this is my classroom back here. Yeah. Eric: Oh, all right. Mark: Well, this has been an incredible conversation and I know we could go on for hours. But I think it's probably a good point for us to kind of draw down for this episode. And I would imagine we're gonna get a lot of really positive response from this episode. And we may ask to have you back to talk more about these things, cuz it's, it's really been just wonderful and super interesting talking with both of you. Yucca: Thank you for joining us so much to think about. Eric: Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having Joh: Yeah, thank you so much. Us on, this was super fun to, to reflect on and think about, and talk about in this group. So thank you. Mark: You're very welcome. And of course we welcome feedback and questions from our listeners. The email address is the wonder podcast, QS, gmail.com. That's the wonder podcast, QS, gmail.com. So we hope to hear from you have a great week, everybody, and we'll be back next week.  

In this episode of the Success Fundamentals Podcast, Kris and Brian talk to seasoned lawyer Eric Johnson. Besides being a top-notch lawyer, he is also the author of From Worst to First, his guide on how to achieve mastery of your craft built from the lessons he learned in law school where he graduated magna cum laude from literally being at the bottom of his class.Eric talks about the mindset he adopted to not only survive, but thrive in law school, and how he has turned to aligning his body, mindy, emotion, and spirit to achieve his goals. As long as you maintain focus, there are no barriers strong enough to hinder your from success. HIGHLIGHTSFrom worst student to top of the class Commit to doing your best irrespective of the resultExert extreme focus to elevate yourselfPrioritize activities that help make you the best version of yourselfStop focusing on the 1-star reviews Lessons in problem-solving from ancient shipbuilding technologyAll barriers succumb under an intense commitment to excellenceHabits to keep yourself aligned and focusedKeep your body, mind, emotion, and spirit equally healthyQUOTESEric: "I didn't come here to be top of my class. I came here because I thought, by learning the law, I could be useful to somebody. I could be helpful. And so, with that emotional determination, I decided, look, I'm just going to do my best." Eric: "It isn't just enough to put in the time. You have to dedicate yourself to be your best and really what you're doing during that 10,000 hours is you are expanding your capacity in a particular field. It's not enough just to say, I'm gonna go through the motions, I'm gonna put in the time and effort, but you have to apply yourself intellectually, emotionally, physically, and every other way." Eric: "If I can keep myself aligned, and keep my emotional, mental, and spiritual efforts and apply that in my physical life, then all things are possible."Connect with Eric in the links below:Website: https://erictoddjohnson.com/Book (Audio): https://www.audible.com/pd/Worst-to-First-Audiobook/B09LRJKY2MFollow Success Fundamentals on the following links below: Website: https://www.successfundamentals.com/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4XCvuwxnFi5_7C6Ncm12xQLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/success-fundamentals™Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/successfundamentalspodcastInstagram: https://instagram.com/successfundamentalspodcast

HIGHLIGHTSHow to find a good digital marketerThe 80/20 Rule: don't stretch yourself too thinDo outbound prospecting first Get your marketing message rightInbound vs Outbound Marketing Inform and educate, not sell Set the correct KPIKnow your market and figure out the appropriate platform The cost of traditional marketing vs digital marketing Business owners need to set their honest goalsQUOTESEric: "Customer acquisition and getting clients and scaling a business are the probably one of the most difficult things there is because it's the lifeblood of your business. And if everyone could do it, then everybody would be millionaires."Eric: For me, I would just lay out all of the different things that business owners are trying to figure out what to spend their time on and then make a chart of okay, this has the potential of this much ROI. Eric: It depends on where the business is at on their revenue level. But if they are at a lower revenue level, they could spend a lot of time trying to get organic people trying to view organic content and things like that. But manual outbound and just outbound prospecting is probably the highest ROI thing you can do as long as their marketing message and position of their offer is good.”Eric: "A lot of people in manual outbound are just hitting with a straight pitch right off the bat. And that doesn't end up well because nobody wants to be sold to. They want to have that inbound feel where they are coming to you because they have a problem that needs to be solved."Eric: "I think inbound is becoming more important because of how consumers in general, their mindsets are shifting to, okay if I want something I'll google it. If I want food, I uber it." Eric: "Because they are able to have access to whatever they want in this Information Age, they want the same thing with your business. They want to see an ad from you, go to your website, possibly convert into a lead because your offer is really good, then when they actually get into the phone with you, you're educating them, just guiding them. You're not selling them, you're just asking questions, making closing statements, hailing objections. Then eventually it just leads into the sale." Eric: "70% of the buying decision for a lot of markets is made by the person before they even talk to you. Because they did the research on your website, they did the research on your ads, they looked at your reviews, they did the research on Google and all these things, maybe asked a couple of friends and did all that before they even called you."  Eric: "Business owners should be as clear and consistent with whatever their goals are as possible and really sit down and be honest with themselves on what they really want. Because that whey say their goals are can actually be less or more than what they actually say."To learn about Eric, check out the links below: Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericrebelo/Website: https://www.ericrebelo.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ericrebelo/If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, review and share with a friend who would benefit from the message. If you're interested in picking up a copy of Jonathan Goldhill's book, Disruptive Successor, go to the website at www.DisruptiveSuccessor.com.

On the podcast I talk with Eric about the value destruction of App Tracking Transparency, the limitations of SKAdNetwork, and how to thrive as an app developer in this new paradigm.My guest today is Eric Seufert. Eric has deep operating experience, having worked in growth and strategy roles at consumer tech companies such as Wooga and Rovio, but he also founded and sold a marketing business intelligence company, Agamemnon, and is an active investor in the mobile gaming and ad tech categories. Eric has a depth and breadth of experience with mobile apps and games that few can match. Over the past year Eric has written extensively about App Tracking Transparency and the future of mobile advertising on his trade blog, Mobile Dev Memo.In this episode, you'll learn: Will Apple's ATT be a net loss for Apple? Can SKAdNetwork be saved, and does Apple want to save it? Is focusing on organic traffic a flawed strategy? What does the future of app install ads look like? Links & Resources Rovio Snapchat Apple's Private Relay Tim Cook Outbrain Taboola AllTrails SubClub AllTrails podcast episode Stitcher Eric Seufert's Links Follow Eric on Twitter Mobile Dev Memo Heracles Freemium Economics: Leveraging Analytics and User Segmentation to Drive Revenue  Eric is on LinkedIn Follow us on Twitter: David Barnard Jacob Eiting RevenueCat Sub Club Episode Transcript00:00:00 David:Hello. I'm your host, David Bernard, and for the first time ever, I'm flying solo today. RevenueCat CEO, Jacob Eiting is busy CEO'ing.My guest today, is Eric Seufert. Having worked in growth and strategy roles at consumer tech companies such as Wooga and Rovio, Eric has a depth and breadth of experience with mobile apps and games that few can match. He also founded and sold marketing business intelligence company Agamemnon, and is an active investor in the mobile gaming and ad tech categories.Over the past year, Eric has written extensively about App Tracking Transparency and the future of mobile advertising on his trade blog, Mobile Dev Memo.On the podcast, I talk with Eric about the value destruction of App Tracking Transparency, the limitations of SKAdNetwork, and how to thrive as an app developer in this new paradigm.Hey Eric, thanks for being on the podcast.00:01:09 Eric:Thank you for having me on the podcast.00:01:11 David:So, we're going to start off with a bit of a dead horse that's been beaten over and over again. Apple's motivation in enacting App Tracking Transparency, but I did want to take kind of a different perspective on it. The most interesting thing to me personally about Apple's motivation with App Tracking Transparency is what it says about what they are going to do in the future.Did they build SKAdNetwork purposely handicapped, or did they not really understand how handicapped it was? Were they really trying to kill Facebook, or was that a kind of a side benefit? I think that their motivations are important, because it forecasts what changes they may or not make moving forward as they start to see the impact.So, I think the first thing I wanted to ask you is, how do you see Apple's reaction and how they perceive ATT to be going, now that we're seeing snap drop 25% after the quarterly earnings report, and see more of the disruption that you and others were predicting, but maybe Apple didn't quite see coming? How do you think Apple sees this going currently? And what does that say about the future of privacy on iOS?00:02:42 Eric:I think Apple's primary motivation was not to capture mobile advertising market share. I don't think that was a primary motivation. I think that's happened, and I think they expected that to happen, but I don't think that was the primary driver of this decision.What I think they wanted to do was, there's kind of like a big picture idea here, and then an immediate consequence idea. I think what Apple did not like, was that they had kind of lost control over content discovery on the iPhone.When the App Store was first launched, that was how you discovered apps. It was through going to the App Store, and some small part search, but then in large part just like the editorial curation that Apple exposes there. That changed over the years, and up until the announcement, or the enactment of of ATT, the way that people discovered apps was through advertising, and primarily Facebook advertising.Apple totally lost control. The content that people interacted with on their phones was not the result of any deliberate decision on Apple's part or some deliberate consideration. It just happened to be whatever could scale ads the best. Whatever companies could scale their ads the most efficiently, that's what people interacted with. That's what became dominant on the platform, and Apple really had no say in that.Short term, narrow aperture view of this, they just wanted to regain control of that. They wanted to be the kingmakers. They wanted to be the tastemakers; the people that decided—the party that decided—what became popular on the iPhone and how the iPhone was used.And I mean, that's, it's, if you've worked in, in gaming, especially, but if you've worked in mobile apps at all and you've ever had to go and, you know, go, go through the whole process of pitching your app to Apple, and pleading for featuring You know, that that's what they want.They, they like to having that control because that allowed them to percolate their new iOS features into the app community through almost horsetrading it's like, you want featuring, We'd be happy to give you featuring, but you've got to integrate X, Y, Z thing into your app.Once you do that, we're happy to feature you. that, that was sort of the, that was the, the, the negotiating process. You know, that that process, even that process itself became less important and less prominent in the life of a developer over the last few years, In 2012 to 2015 that's what you did every time you were launching a new app, or even if you're doing a major update, you flew, you flew to San Francisco, you went to Cupertino, you went into a, conference room at Apple HQ and you pitch somebody.That just stopped being something that people did. Like just people realized that, even if we get featuring, it's not going to be that meaningful for our business, what we really need to be able to nail what we, what we have to do. Our success is dependent on our ability to scale the product with paid advertising, you know, and explicitly, you know, specifically through, through Facebook.So, I think that was the primary motivation to regain that control right now. I think there's a bigger picture idea here. There's a bigger picture motivation or, or like, projection here, which is that, you know, we're, we're moving into a paradigm where, you know, the phone you have, the, the device you have that you consume content with is totally unconstrained, in terms of what it accesses, right?Like, and, and how it accesses content. And that's what that's, that's the sort of, that's the behavioral, norm that, that people are moving into, they just expect their favorite stuff to be available from whatever device they have in their hand, at that moment, as long as it's connected to the internet, they expect to be able to connect to Disney to Hulu, to Netflix, to Facebook, to anything, they use every day.You get to a point where, you know, if you run this gatekeeping platform, like at the App Store or Google play If, if, if users have leapfrogged that paradigm into no, my favorite content is always available. It's, you know, sort of like, it's just, just persistent in the cloud and I should be able to access it however I want at any, at any given point in time.Then you've lost control of that sort of, of that gatekeeper positioning. I feel like what Apple wanted to do they, they, know that that's inevitable. we'll get there, but they wanted to prolong this dominance and the prominence of the App Store in terms of, you know, the consumer relationship, that's the first stop you've got to go through them to get to the content. because then that also, like that also provides them with some leverage over the, over the developer. And I think w w we've I think we've probably accelerated. But, but maybe not, maybe this, maybe this, you know, buys two to three more years of, okay, well, I have an iPhone that means I go through the App Store to get content, right.Or I have an Android. Maybe that means I go through Google play to get to content. And not that like, this is it. Matter what device I'm using, I'm using my Samsung TV or my iPhone and my iPad or my Facebook portal or whatever, or my, my, Amazon, echo. I want to get to the content that I have available to me in a persistent way in the cloud.Right. And so I think that was, that was also the primary motivation, or that was part of the primary motivation, but that was like, sort of like the bigger picture consequence of it.00:08:18 David:Right. I mean, where do you put, Apple's kind of stated motivation of privacy in this hierarchy of, of motivations and, and outcomes because, you know, a lot of people have said, oh, well, Apple was clearly acting anti competitively to favor their own ad business and crush these other ad businesses. It was, you know, primarily driven by the greed to expand their ad revenue.And then I think yours is really interesting as far as like the control, but then of course Apple goes and just in the quarter results recently and has stated over and over again. That it was 100% privacy motivated. do you just not buy that00:08:58 Eric:No, not at all. And I don't, I don't necessarily even think at this moment that consumer privacy, has been benefited or protected as a result of this. Right. And we can get into that in a second, but you know, I've been publishing a lot about, they're still allowing fingerprint and they said they wouldn't, that's in the policy.Right. It's explicit. Like there's no ambiguity there and they're allowing for it. Right. And they're not policing. And they could, because they've done it in the past. And so I think if you want it to be protective of privacy, That would be one of the things that you would prioritize is, preventing that from happening.00:09:33 David:And you don't think that? Not that I mean, diving into fingerprinting real quick, do you think that. It's potentially that they're just delaying the enforcement to kind of smooth some of the disruption that tra App Tracking Transparency has already caused it because them not enforcing it immediately doesn't mean they're not going to enforce it.So, but I find it baffling as well. That they're not. So do you see them enforcing it sooner do you think that this really is an indication that they don't actually care about privacy and that this is not ever going to be enforced?00:10:08 Eric:They can enforce it at some point and like they're there, there wise, like I think kind of a widespread. That in the developer community, that there was going to be a grace period. Right. They would introduce NTT, but they're going to allow for fingerprinting for some amount of time, because, you know, if, if you just, you know, made this very radical change and it was like absolute from day one, the impact would have been even more severe than, than what we saw.So I, there was a belief that there would be a grace period, but you know, we're going on like four months now. Right. And, and the thing is, you know, my, my sense was when, as soon as they, because they, you know, they talked about private relay at WWDC this year, I was like, oh, okay. That's how they do it.Right. Because, and I've talked a bunch about how it would be clunky to police fingerprinting through App Store review the store review process. Right. I talked about that in a piece. I just wrote two weeks ago or last week, and it would be clunky, but they could have introduced us in private relay.I thought that that's what they were going to do. Or at the very least they would roll private relay out. Cause it applies to, you know, safari traffic now. And they would say, look, well, we have to reach parody. Our treatment of the web and or treatment had been app traffic. And so therefore, you know, maybe for whatever technical reason we can't, we can't, obfuscate the IP address of in app traffic, it'd be too expensive or it's a technical challenge that we haven't solved yet.But like, this is the moment, you know, ad tech when you must stop fingerprinting. And I think if they said that, you know, these ad tech companies would, right, because the way that they've sort of implemented this in a lot of these solutions is it's like an option, right? Like they say, you can turn it off if you want.Right. Cause I think that these ad tech companies are surprised. They thought fingerprinting was going to be. More we're policed early on, maybe not on day one, but you'd get like two weeks a month. and so they kind of introduced this as like an optional feature. Right. And then, you know, and they, they presented it as like a, Hey, it's a feature for developers if they want it.And so, you know, it's, it's something that they could switch off and they, they they're ready to switch off. I think. So I think even if, if Apple just sort of like, you know, kind of pantomime those motions, people would stop doing it because, okay. It's, it's actually, you know, it's sort of like actually against policy now versus just before where it was like ignored, but, you know, I, I thought they were gonna introduce in iOS 15 for that reason, or at least again, like, just make the, go through the motions of saying that, that it's, it's not allowed, but, but so just, just back Betsy, it wasn't about like, where does privacy sit in the, in the sort of list of motivations?I think it's probably so my, my, the heart, the hard time that I have with like, reconciling this idea that like, and you hear this a lot, like Apple cares about policy that people say that privacy, Apple cares about product. How could it have Apples on a person Apple. Apple's a corporate structure.There's there's however many employees at Apple. They don't all agree on things. Right. Who and Tim cook is not a dictator. He can't just run the company like that. Apple shareholders, have some control. His board has some control. Right. And so, you know, at least they have influence. And so like, the Apple as a, it can't have is it doesn't have a monolithic opinion about stuff.It's not an entity in its own. Right. I I just don't buy this idea that a company can care about some abstract concept. Right? Like, here's another question for you. Apple makes the Apple watch, It's a health tracker. Does Apple care about your health Do they, are they really concerned? Are they genuinely, you know, invested in your health Or do they want to sell something. so the idea with privacy is okay. It gives us an opportunity to strike a juxtaposition juxtaposition against Android, which you know, has, is, is perceived, I believe, as less privacy-safe but even Android has gone to great lengths or Google has gone to great lengths to bring privacy to the forefront in Android.A lot of it is about informing consumers about their data being accessed, but still there. They've done some things. Right. So anyway, I just, I don't believe that a company, a corporate entity can care about an abstract concept. Right. putting that aside, what does privacy buy them It buys them that juxtaposition, and then it buys them cover, It buys them cover to do all this other stuff. Right. And then to, and then they spin up this big narrative that probably helps us sell iPhones. Because you know what I00:14:07 David:Or future AR glasses 00:14:10 Eric:Exactly 00:14:10 David:Some ways,Positioning themselves, they they care about privacy insofar as it's an incredible marketing tool for them. it, gives them cover for future devices. They become more and more and more and more private. this thing you wear on your wrist biometric sensors and tracking your sleep and everything else, customers are going to feel more comfortable wearing AR glasses that have cameras on.When it's Apple branded, than when it's Facebook branded, there's been backlash with the Ray-Ban, glasses from Facebook. So, yeah, I get, you I, you know, the Apple fanboy in me wants to believe that, you know, Apple you know, wants to do good in the world, but I've, since lost my Apple religion, but I, but I do think to a certain extent that they care about they do care about privacy whether or not any of that's motivated by Goodwill or otherwise it's incredible marketing for them.That being the case, you know, and this is where maybe our opinions diverge, or at least how we interpret some of, of what's been going on. I still am of the opinion, as naive as it may be that that privacy was a primary motivation for them, whether they're altruistic or marketing or, whatever other reasons they have to be to be positioning themselves this way.I still think that that that was primary and, and that, I don't know that they even fully understood or expected some of the. the things that have been happening, I think they thought SKAdNetwork was a better solution than it actually is. I don't know that they expected to see a company like snap that is actually fairly aligned with them, at least, in marketing and public perception as being a more privacy-focused company to see this company that has been reading and talking positively about App Tracking Transparency and see them drop 25% in a single day, because, and then say specifically it's because SKAdNetwork isn't delivering.I still think personally. This has more to do with Apple, not understanding and not listening to the industry, which we've seen for decades, Apple doesn't listen, they're not good at receiving outside feedback on roadmaps, on, on their APIs, on anything else. They think they know what to do.And they think as a product company, they can just build this product bring it to the world. And it's going to be the best thing since sliced bread SKAdNetwork is just another. Yeah. Another example of them trying that approach and then just falling flat on their face. I think this is important because if that is the case and if they really, if the primary motivation really was privacy, then maybe we do see an SKAdNetwork 3.0, that's way better than this current one.After they realized they've destroyed tens of billions of dollars of value, and also potentially handicapped their own platform because as ad efficiency goes down and as apps struggle to gain traction, they lose too. So, yeah, I mean, I guess just, I'd love to hear your kind of response to that. Cause I know we probably disagree on this a bit.00:17:37 Eric:I guess it doesn't really matter. Like it, you know, if we, I don't know, at this point it kind of seems like semantics a little bit. Cause it's like, well, all they care about privacy because privacy is good marketing messages. But my point is like, I don't think they genuinely care whether people's data is being accessed by advertising networks.Right. I don't think they cared about that to the, to the degree that, it didn't impact. It was, it was, it was happening sort of unawares, right? Like, or, you know, that these users were like sort of unawares, once it became, like a, like a sort of social rallying cry around, you know, Facebook and, you know, it's the congressional testimony and you're listening on our devices.And then once it became something that I think that they could, you know, exploit the insured, then maybe they care about it because it is a differentiator for the products and they can help them sell more products. Right. But, but I think so, first of all, so we are on a scanner 3.0, they released 3.0 3.0 is just like a minor improvement.So 3.0 added view through attribution. And I think it added one more thing. And then also with, I was 15, they allowed the post-bacc to be sent directly to the advertiser, not just the networks. I mean, those are improvements, but I don't see them continuing to do. S K I know work. I just, I just don't see that, but I think I do. I do agree. I agree with you that, that they didn't understand how consequential that this would be to the advertising. I think it's an example of like the left hand, not talking to the right hand.Apple is like a super secretive organization, not just to the outside world, right. Internally Apple teams are very secretive. Right. And, you know, I, I don't know that the App Store team was talking to the iTunes team. I, I mean, I don't even really know how that, how, how this sort of corporate structure separates those two teams.But my sense is that like the App Store team, the people that work with developers, Aware of this, like, and I I've been told that I've been told that they learned about it at WWDC two years ago. Right. And then they got up, they had to field a bunch of angry emails and phone calls. Right. you know, I think, there, there wasn't a whole lot of consensus internally around what the impact of this would be.I think the impact was underestimated. And to be honest, I don't think they would have released something if they knew that it was going to wipe out, you know, just a late, a quarter of snaps market cap in a day. Right. I don't think they would have released something if they knew it was going to annihilate a fifth of Zynga's market cap in a day last quarter, you know what I mean?I don't think they, you know, and what we saw with Facebook was that there's like this kind of slow erosion of, of, of market cap, you know, from, from like the all time high, a couple months ago. but you know, th the damage hasn't been just, just in terms of stock price, hasn't been as, as, as severe to Facebook, as it has to some of these other.You know, who weren't really doing the things that Apple wanted, you know, to sort of, to mitigate. Right. So I, I don't think that they fully, you know, first of all, they didn't, you know, workshop this with advertisers. Like I know that to be true, or, or I believe that to be true, unless some people did it in like, you know, deep secret and they've never revealed it, but I don't think they, I don't think that's true because I've talked to a lot of people.No one, no one was consulted about this that I've spoken with. you know, I don't think that they really truly grasped how sort of like fundamental performance advertising was, or is to a lot of these businesses, right. In terms of, they're just, they're, they're sort of, you know, operational success.Right. And so I think, because of that sort of differential between. I think what they thought was going to be the result of this and what the actual result was. You know, I, I feel like that does call into question, you know, not only just the wisdom of this, but you know, how well they can defend it, right.When, you know, against maybe some, some, some lines of inquiry, you know, that, that are, that are sort of like, you know, kind of a more powerful and, sort of socially instrumental than, than ours than mine are then, then app advertisers or app developers. Right.I think they've, they've invited a lot of questions about this through, through, through the severity of the impact that we've witnessed over the last couple of weeks and months.00:21:35 David:And that's where I totally agree with that. And that's been my perception as well. And I talk to folks as well, is that Apple didn't fully understand the implications. And if there were people inside Apple who had a better understanding of what might play out, they didn't have enough of a seat at the table.And that a lot of this was just ivory tower thinking was Apple building ski network thinking, oh, this is going to be a great solution with. Like you said, workshopping it with the people who would actually have to use it. And then, you know, coming up with a better solution. So then, then my question for you is, okay.You know, you were kind of chicken little for a year, the sky is gonna fall. The sky is gonna fall. The sky is gonna fall. I mean, you've been really one of the most vocal people about how big these impacts were going to be. And you had a lot of people in the industry saying, oh, it's not going to be that bad.It's not going to be that bad. Well, now the sky fell. I mean, you know, a public company having 25% of its market value wiped out in a day due to one specific policy from a platform like the sky is falling, you were right. But then so now Apple sees it. They can't, they can't avoid seeing it. What do they do from here?You said, they're not going to make SKAdNetwork better. You know, are they going to not police, fingerprinting to, continue to soften the blow? Like where does it go? That's that's, what's so interesting to me about okay, whatever their motivation, what they do in the future. In reaction to what's actually happening now that we're seeing actual results matters, you know, to, to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars.And, and one of the things I put in the notes to talk about is a lot of this value that's being destroyed is not accruing to Apple. It's not as if you know, a hundred billion dollars of market cap wiped out of Facebook and Google and snap and other folks, it's not like Apple is actually capturing that because they don't, they don't have the ad inventory.They don't they're, they're not a big player in the space. So, yeah. W where does Apple go from here if they painted themselves in a corner,00:23:38 Eric:Maybe, I mean, I think what I would, you know, if I was an Apple, I'd be worried about, you know, they've got a lot of theirs are, they're already under a lot of scrutiny, right. Like, you know,00:23:47 David:Right.00:23:48 Eric:What did the DOJ, what just three days ago, decided to re reopen the investigation in that, in the Apple, related to, to the way they operate the App Store.I just think it's really tough to, to maintain this line on one front while, you know, you're obviously having to lose ground on, on another front. Right. because as we've seen, like there's just been this steady trickle of them, you know, seeding ground developers or, giving up a lot of, you know, Exclusivity and, and, you know, PR preferential treatment they have with, with apps or operation, right.Like, it just feels like maybe it's maybe it's they felt like, well, that will, it we'll expand one area of that, that preferential treatment while we're sort of like forced to abandon other, areas of preferential treatment. But I don't know that they were, I don't, but that would only make sense if they actually really understood how dramatic the consequences of, of ADT would be, which I don't think they did.You know, I don't know. Maybe they have painted themselves into a corner. I mean, I don't know. So that's the thing about asking, I know work is like the way it was designed. It's got a lot of features that on their own would be smart, you know, tech, progressive privacy, protective, you know, mechanisms.Right. But in combination just renders this thing, like totally. Dysfunctional. And that's the problem because now if they go back and they get rid of any of these given features, so like, or not features, but restrictions, right. So let's say they say, okay, so first of all, I mean, and I'm assuming most people listening are at least familiar with this.I don't want to, I won't, I won't go into the whole thing, you know, description of Muscat network from zero, but let's say they give up on the privacy threshold, which would be weird because there's a privacy threshold for Apple search ads to be fair, but let's say they gave that up. Right. then, then, okay.You move a little bit towards, you know, something that, that is functional and helpful. but you're, you've, you've, you've made a pretty, sort of like very kind of public facing kind of Mia culpa decision, which I don't, you know, or announcement. Right.Which I don't know, that is an Apple's DNA to do that kind of thing.00:25:49 David:And giving up the privacy threshold would actually allow tracking, which is what they're saying, they're trying to prevent. So that's the other problem with giving much ground on some of these things with SKAdNetwork.00:26:01 Eric:Well, it could, it00:26:03 David:And that that's kind of the broader question is like, can S K I network even be saved and, you know, let's say regulators did come in and say, this was completely anti-competitive what's the solution.I mean, if you roll back and give unique identifiers to every app, you're going to have all the same unintended consequences that came with the IDFA. yeah, I mean, that's like four questions rolled into a statement, but, can I ask that network actually be saved while maintaining some level of privacy?00:26:32 Eric:Maybe, but I don't know that you do give up. So I don't, I don't think you totally Naval tracking. If you'd give up the privacy threshold, what you'd enable would be the advertiser would be able to link the specific campaign to an individual user in their data environment. Now, if they chose to share that with a third party, Platform or as platform, I guess that that would be their decision, I don't think by default it would sort of instantly, you know, make that trackable. Right. Cause all you're really doing is adding a little bit more context every post-bacc versus just some, because you already get, I mean, if you get rid of the privacy rest, it, that just means those NOLs go away.Right. And so you're able to get a little, you're able to track, you're able to sort of observe the less frequent, transactions. Right. Or just tell me what it is. If you tell me what it is that I can design around that. Right. But we don't even know if it's dynamic they've, they've apparently changed it like without telling anybody.And so all of a sudden the number of Knoll conversion values exploded. Right? I mean, that's the thing, just make it public because if you do that, then I'm going to say, you know what? Okay, I'm going to design my app, such that like. The people I care about are going to trigger this or not. Right. It's not something that's in its early funnel.It's something that it'll happen. You know, I can build my, I can, I can sort of like Intuit, you know, just through like kind of statistical modeling, what, where I need to place this in order for it to trigger the number of people that satisfies the privacy threshold, such that I get the data that I really need to make decisions.Cause right now you have no idea. And you know, I have no idea where to place that. What, what is that? Unless you just experiment a bunch of times, but, but even then it's, it's the, the broader environments to variable because the, the campaign could go up and down in terms of like DAU or DNA every day, you know what I mean?And then if they change it, then there's like a totally unknown exhaustion is variable there. Right? So it's impossible to tune your app such that you, you say, okay, look, I get it. You're not going to let me have. conversion value if fewer than 25 people did it. Well, I know how much traffic I'm driving through all these campaigns every day.So, so I need to consolidate my campaign, such that each one drives 400 in new, new installs every day, because I know that, you know, an eighth of the installs will trigger that thing, but those will be the users that really care about. Right. And if you did that, then at least I know, and I can design everything around that, but I don't even know.I don't even know if that changes over time relative to the number of installs I'm driving. I don't know if you're changing it on the back end without telling me like, it's just, you can't operate in with that kind of opacity. It's just, it's just not functional. And then you've got the a hundred campaign ID limit, you know, you've got no creative, parameters in the post-bacc like, you just can't do anything with this.00:29:04 David:Yeah. I mean, that's where it does seem like this was designed as an academic exercise. How do we prevent any. Identification of any individual ever from being even remotely possible. And, and it was an academic exercise that they played out. Whereas if they had workshops with the people who actually have to use it and had, thought through the kind of business use cases and you made a valid point earlier, you don't automatically, enable tracking by, reducing the privacy threshold.But I think, you know, Apple She kind of rethink some of the priorities around this so that you get better business metrics, even if one or two people can slip through the cracks of being able to be uniquely identified. And I think the argument there is like, it doesn't matter at scale, like if one person slips through the cracks, Facebook is not going to build technology around finding that person here and there that slips through the cracks because it doesn't matter to their business to find one or two.It matters too to have more data on everyone. So the campaign ID limit the creative ID, like all of these seem very ivory tower thinking that just is not going to play out in the real world. So, a few minutes ago you were saying you don't think Apple will improve SKAdNetwork, but now we're talking about how they could.Where does the rubber meet the road what's going to happen?00:30:31 Eric:I mean, I don't. Cause I mean, the thing is like, you know, we're just kind of riffing right now. Right? I think like if we sat, we sat down with the chocolate or the whiteboard or something, you know, because we, I wrote an article a couple months back, right. It was, it was like right after this was announced and I kind of like, here's some suggestions here's, here's what you can do to make STI work.More helpful and you know, some really smart people in the Mobile Dev Memo, slack pointed out holes in my analysis. They know if you do this, I, I, if we, if we had enough, post-tax going, I could sort of encode the idea of V over enough of the post-tax like, event in a post-tax. I could put like one character from the 90 fee and every single one, I could get the users.So it's, that's why you can only have one post-bac per install, right. Because if you did 50 or so, that makes sense. So, I mean, the thing is like, if I'm just ripping, what I do believe though, is like, you can eat, you can either have the privacy threshold or the random. Right because I need so like ramp the privacy threshold up to a million.I don't care, but let me have real-time install accounting because without that, I can't do anything. Right. If you, if I, if you're off you skating, even the date of installed in that I can't, I can't do in Sauk county. I can't, I can't, I can't, assess the economics of my campaigns because I don't even know when the installs are produced and I can't make changes to campaigns.Right. Without having to shut the whole thing down and wait, and to reuse that, one precious campaign ID within the, within the sort of like constraint of a hundred. Right. So. my sense is that like, if you just solve for that allow that allow real-time install accounting and then do whatever after that you have to do to prevent me from figuring out who those people are.Okay, that's fine. But at least then I know this campaign drove this many installs today. These were the targeting parameters. This was the audience I was reaching. This is how much I spent. Right. And like, even if we just went, cause I don't think you would lose a lot if you just went back. Cause right.You know, the, the frontier that we reached was like, we're in, especially on Facebook, I'm optimizing for value. I'm not demising for ROAS. Right. And that was like the sort of the final form of, of, of mobile advertising measurement is like, I'm telling Facebook, give me 110% ROAS on day seven. If you do that, I don't care how you target, who you target.You know, w how much you see CPI is, is irrelevant. I've got unlimited. You know, from a, from a sort of like practical standpoint on any given day spend as much as you can, but just make sure we'll get a hundred times that was the final form. And I think even if we sort of like retreated from there back to just like CPI, the average LTV of this campaign is X and the average, you know, the CPI was Y and so therefore I'm making money.That would be much less efficient, but still like it's workable right now. What we have is not workable.00:33:10 David:Yeah, well, I think you and I could riff on all this wonky stuff for another couple of hours and, I hope Apple's listening and actually going to make some changes and, listen better now that they're starting to see some of this stuff, but I did, I did want to change gears and kind of start talking through.What this means for developers and specifically, you know, sub club podcasts, what it means for subscription app developers and, and what you were just talking about. I think, I think is actually a really important, topic that not a lot of people fully understand you've written about it in the past, but I think it's still somewhat abstract enough, that I wanted to, to kind of have you describe it in more concrete terms.And that's the fact that with these, you know, day seven ROAS campaigns and value optimization and event optimization campaigns, Facebook with all of its data and AI in incredible targeting efficiency has kind of, in some ways been doing the job of developers. It's been finding. Those unique profiles, user profiles of who's actually going to spend money.Who's actually going to enjoy the app. And, and it's like, in some ways they, they became this really efficient black box of user profiling and understanding users that developers had kind of in the past done. And then maybe now need to get good at again in the future. know, again, you've written about this before, but just describe that process, maybe a little better of, of how amazing Facebook really was at finding the best users for an app.00:34:51 Eric:Well, they were very, you know, as you said, very, very good at it. Right. So, you know, it was based on like an approach that is, was very, simplistic, right? I mean, I just gonna, I'm gonna, if I can observe everything, then I know everything about this user and I can just target most relevant ads to them.Cause I know everything about what they interact with. Right. And I know what they like and you know, it gets to a point where that, that that ability to observe is so pervasive. That I, I do agree like that, that had, gone too far. Like the pendulum has swung too far in that direction.Like it is not, I find it unsavory to think that like, literally everything I do on my phone is observed and instrumented and ingested as a data point by one company. Right. Like that's, I'm uncomfortable with that. So, you know, and, but, but like, I think, you know, to your point, like going, you know, if you go back to when, when UAC was introduced, right.So Google their mobile product UAC is that's they describe it. I think that they themselves describe it as a black box as like a selling point. Right. Because it's like, look. Worried about any of that, you will handle all of this difficult analysis for you. We'll find the best users for you. You don't have to iterate across audience, definitions, or even creative, you know, and do all that experimentation yourself.We'll do that on your behalf with our superior tools. And when they announced it, there was a lot of, you know, disquietude in the, in the developer community. Cause people are like, look, we built this. We want to do it. I don't trust you to do it. I trust you to do it well, but I also trust it to do it to your advantage.Right, right. To pursue your best interest. Not necessarily mine, what I think you'll do. So this is, and this is exactly what these platforms do is they sort of, they take whatever boundary you set or whatever standard you set around efficiency. And they, they reached that. Right. They'll they'll get you to exactly what you say is like the sort of quality threshold or the efficiency threshold for your campaigns to keep spending money, but they won't give you any more than that.Right. So they could blow out your campaigns and get you 400% real ass. but if you told them you only need 110 by day seven, that's what, that's what you're going to get. And if they get you to that 400, then they're going to buy you a bunch of crappy traffic that brings the sort of average down until it hits that one 10.Right. And so, you know, that's, that's the power that they had, which, you know, to be fair, it's like, they were really good at that. And they would probably be, and, and, and them being really good at it. And then, and then present and providing that as a product productizing that and making that available to everyone.Meant that anyone could spin up a Facebook campaign, you know, any, any Shopify retailer, any Shopify merchant, any small time app developer and spend money and grow their product, grow their audience, right. Versus go back to 2012 and like, you know, the best UAA teams won. And, and a lot of times these were like big teams, big companies that raised a lot of money.You know, now, you know, it is way more egalitarian to open it up to anybody. And, you know, the small shop owner, in, I don't know, the middle of Kentucky or whatever could, could have access to this world-class machine learning infrastructure to grow their business. Right. And then they only really had to compete on the quality of their product and not the quality of their user acquisition infrastructure.So in a way it was, I mean, it was a giant gift to these SMBs and, and if the proof is in the pudding, look at Facebook's advertiser mix, 10 million advertisers, vast majority SMBs, right? 10 million average. Right. Think about any company that has 10 million customers, that's just an absurd scale. Right?And these are people spending, you know, in aggregate tons of money on Facebook. So like, it made sense, but, but, you know, there was a lot of pushback when UAC announced that. Cause developers said, look, we, that was our competitive advantage. Like, well, should it be, if we go back to basics and everybody has access to the same quality of infrastructure and the same quality of like, sort of like, you know, marketing tools and then you can be on the basis of your product.00:38:49 David:So then are we kind of going back to that world? I mean, after I think transparency is going to degrade, Facebook's targeting efficiency because they're not going to have that pervasive tracking where they know everything that's going on on your smartphone. So, so where do we go from, from here as far as, you know, what developers need to be thinking about?And, and I forget exactly when you were at this post, but, but I really appreciated you. You kind of talked through some, some tactics even around. developers needing to get better at capturing intent about potentially kind of bifurcating experience in the app is that we're we're developers should be headed of, okay.Now Facebook can't bring me the perfect user for my app as it exists today. and instead developers need to get back to the basics of understanding their user base and kind of building out those user profiles and understanding who they should be going after. Is it, is that where we're headed?00:39:48 Eric:I think so. I mean, I think we talked about this last time I was on this podcast, but like, you know, so when I wrote my book, Freeman, economics, I mean, this was like 2013. Right. And so this AEO didn't exist yet. You know, VO was didn't exist yet. This was, you bought installed. Right. And the idea of freemium or my sort of thesis with freemium is that like, it gives you the ultimate power to personalize.And so you need some minimum scale because you need a minimum amount of people to experiment with in order to make, you know, some small percentage of people that do monetize meaningful to you. but in order to do that, you need like a sort of like very large surface area for experimentation, right?You need a lot of content to be able to test against people and make sure that, you expose to them the exact perfect thing that they want. And in order to do that, you eat a lot. And so what ended up happening was that idea of flip. And it, and it became less about doing that in the product and more about doing that with the creative, right.And allowing Facebook to do that with four year on your behalf with the creative, then they found the perfect user and you need to do any personalization in the app because they probably the perfect user just make the app for the perfect user, that individual profile, that one profile. Perfect. You make that app, Facebook will find those people through like mass, you know, wide-scale experimentation with creative.Well, now it's flipped again. And so, you know, when someone comes into your app, you don't know who they are. You don't know how qualified they are, because the targeting has been degraded to the, to the point where, you know, th th there's, there's not a whole lot of, of sort of like operatory, you know, relevancy that you can Intuit there.And so you've got to parse that out from their behavior, show them something, see how they react to it. If they react positively to it, show them more of that. And if they don't show them more. And, and that kind of personalization though. I mean, it was very powerful and I talked and that's, I wrote a whole book about it, but it's hard to do.You need a big team, you need data infrastructure, you need that's, that's the thing. And then you revert back to like, well, only big developers can do this. Right. And so you've kind of just edged out the small guy. you know, the developers that are just like a couple of people and they got to just whiff, or they, they got to take a flyer on some idea, and they better hope that it works right.Versus being able to kind of iterate into that and provide one app that gives like personalized experiences to sort of everybody that comes through.00:41:56 David:Yeah. So then those, I mean, what would your advice be today knowing that you can't just, you know, throw a hundred grand at Facebook and let them figure out your perfect user? How, you know, if you're, if you're building an app today from scratch, or let's say you're at 20 or $30,000 in MRR and you want to make that leap and really grow, what do you do?00:42:18 Eric:Well, I think so. I mean, in that post, I mean the one thing that is, you know, it's a worthwhile exercise, but it is trying to instrument these, these signals with the conversion values for SKAdNetwork. Now, the problem with that was, you know, going into this before NTT was launched and, you know, I worked, you know, I worked with some companies to do this and it's like a data science exercise, right?You just, you, you run these, you know, you go back and you have like, kind of look back models and you find out what the commonality was amongst people that ended up being good users. And you try to surface that in the app and you encode that as a signal for a scanner. The problem is going into that exercise.You're thinking that sci network was like a good faith solution. it made sense, but now we realize, well, we don't even know when they're going to te when they're going to, how many of these we need to trigger before they even start reporting them to us. Right. And so like, it's like, okay, well, that's not really an option.You know, I think the other thing is, you know, you approach this as more of like a product marketing, you know, project and just trying to figure out who your audience is right here. And that's like, going back to basics, that's saying, okay, like, what are the demo features of the groups that like this type of product and that's what I have to target against.Right. And then just, and then trying to get, you know, cause you can't do mass creative testing anymore, at least on an iOS. And so, you know, trying to work out some pipeline of like, we try concepts on Android where we can still do kind of mass testing and then we promote the, the conceptual winners to iOS, but then we've got, you know, fewer, various success there.So we've got to kind of adapt that for the iOS environment. Like it's just, you lose a lot of, there's very lossy that each time you, you sort of transfer some sort of component of understanding from a totally separate platform. To iOS and then from iOS to like different environments to, to other environments on iOS, you just, you lose signal there, you lose precision.So I mean, it's it's, but that's it right. And then, you know, trying to get away. So I think another thing is that, you know, you talk to some of these companies and Facebook had become like kind of a drug for them. I mean, it's just like they were addicted to it. and it was just so easy to only use Facebook, right?Because you could accomplish everything you want it to, but you know, that's a classic, you know, sort of, that, that that's a classic sort of blunder from, from just a commercial perspective. You never want to be totally dependent on another platform. You know, now Facebook didn't make this decision.Apple did, but, you know, nonetheless, you know, your sort of devastated by it, right. Because of that dependency. So I think the other piece of this is just trying to, is doing, doing the work you should've done a long time ago, which is diversify your traffic mix. Right. And that's actually kind of difficult because Facebook, again, they did all that creative exploration for you.You know, they have such a broad user base that you could find all these different groups in scale, right at to, to scale like these even niche audiences, niche, look, any, any sort of like niche for X strategy game. You find enough people to build out, a big da you base and that's not true.I don't the other platforms. Right. And you got to really nail the form factor for those like snap is totally different. Like the way to approach the app is totally different. The Facebook, the way to approach tick talks to even snap, right? The way to approach Outbrain, Taboola totally different than any of those.You know, the way to approach YouTube is even different. Like every, all these, these are very, you know, particular, unique, channels and, and, and the way that the ads are are exposed in the products is different across them. And so you've to, you've got, gotta go through the work and the investment it's, you're investing in a data and, and, and sort of institutional knowledge.And all was never went through that exercise because it's like, I can just00:45:46 David:Right.00:45:46 Eric:Spend more Facebook.00:45:47 David:Yeah. And, where do you think organics fall into this mix? I know, like we talked to all trails on the, on the episode before that I said, not only are they a unicorn app, likely evaluation, but in, in their success with organics, I mean, there are apps that just find incredible success with that, right.Kind of search optimization or finding that right niche that really drives organic installs. Where do you think the average app should be placing organic and how much focus should they be putting on trying to get some of this free attention and build, you know, user generated content and links and things like that.00:46:35 Eric:I mean, do it to the extent that you can. I mean, why not? you know, I, I don't think you've got to choose one of the other, right. I mean, you should be ideally maximizing the effect of both of these strategies, but I will say one thing it's that you always have to turn on paid UI, right. You've always got to turn on paid marketing.There's varying, you know, sort of, timelines, you know, over which you have to confront that reality, but it is reality. You've always got to turn it on and like, I've done enough, like advisory for like private equity funds and just big companies that are looking to buy other companies.And it's always, the reason they bring me on is because I'm going to say, we could triple this business. If you did paid UA, right. We could cut Drupal this, like how, how, how much, how much bigger could this get? Right. And you know what I mean? Like, there's always a point where they've capped out. They never developed this, you know, expertise.Internally, right. It never became like domain knowledge that they possessed. And for that reason, there been a lot of false starts. Cause it's like, well, we can always sort of lean back on organic and it's going to take time to spin up paid and they bring someone in. And within two months they haven't really materially improve the business and they spend a bunch of money.So they get fired or, you know, they get the budget cut and they quit. And then they do that three more times and then they realize we're stalled out in growth. and no one wants to come work to be our CMO because like, it's pretty obvious that they're not gonna be. You know, the full freedom and the only way to sort of like break out of that cycle is to have the company get acquired right by a private equity fund is going to say, yeah, we're going to bring in a CMO and you know, these management's kind of gone and, or they're gone, but, or they can stay with it to play ball with the new, you know, the new execs and, and we're just gonna spin up paid marketing and that's, and that's how we grow this asset and that's how we make our money.So I've just been on enough of those deals where you always turn on page away. If you, even, if you, even, if you think you never will, it happens, you know, outside of your, approval.00:48:28 David:Yeah. I didn't mean to phrase the question anyway, that made it a black or white that you had to choose one over the other. And actually I was, I was trying to, to, to kind of, throw a softball at you, because I think your, your thinking on this, is great in that the sooner you do spin up some level of paid marketing, the sooner you, you can understand the different audiences that are going to be coming into the app.And, and that's something that you've talked a lot about that I think is really fascinating. Yeah. If you can find a good organic channel, go for it and bring traffic in, but know that when you spin up ads, those that traffic is going to look different. They're going to convert different. They're going to be interested in different things.And if you, yeah, I'm stealing your, your kind of playbook here. So yeah. Tell me why you think. even if you do have a very successful organic channel and maybe that's the strategy, you kind of get from 10 K a month to a hundred, 300 K a month. But to get from there to the millions a month, you're going to have to spin it up.So what's the playbook for, for kind of building that expertise in house. And when do you start, when do you have to start ramping it up?00:49:43 Eric:So thank you for reminding me of my thoughts here. so, so the idea, the idea there is like, organic's never going to be the ultimate scale channel, right? Like it's gonna, it's gonna, it's, it's gonna, you're gonna reach some sort of asymptote with growth there and it's gonna flatten out and probably at, you know, if you kind of close your eyes and you pictured your app at like the sort of greatest potential, right?Th this sort of like greatest sort of like intrinsic potential paid is 80% of daily, you know, new users, right. Or 60 or whatever, but it's a majority. And so if you've only. You know, grown via, you know, just sort of like organic traction and organic like magnetism, and you've, you've gone through like many sort of cycles of app or product iteration to sort of optimize the product for that group of people that do look distinct that will look distinct from people that have responded to some kind of stimulus, right.And have some sort of intent, sort of like, you know, driving their, their adoption of your product, then you've optimized for the group. That's that at the greatest potential scale of your, of your product is in minority. Right. And what you really want to do is you want to optimize the product for the majority, the, where all the growth, where the growth can be, right.And so that, you know, if you delay layering in pay traffic and you, and you delay, then you delay understanding what they want out of your product. And the sooner you bring that in the sooner you can sort of, Optimize the product for them, the more efficient your pay traction will be, and you'll get an organic halo effect from that.Right. And so like, it's like, well, the sooner that you do that, the faster that you sort of reach that, that sort of, you reached that potential on the organic side. So it's more about like, are you thinking about like how, I mean, an exercise that I always love to do is it's just like pause and think about like, what would success look like?And for most apps, success looks like, yeah, we're spending a ton of money on paid you way. And there's a lot of organic too, because that's just a function of being a successful app that a lot of people know about, but, but we're spending a ton on UI. That's a good thing. That's not a bad thing. It's a great thing.And so, but, but the majority of our users came in through paid UA and so we've optimized the app for them. and so we've, we've, we've made the economics better over time. And then the other piece is like in a, talked about this a lot too. It's like, you've got to change it. Over the life cycle of your app.It, because you know, a lot of times what you see as, you know, you see an app that's new they've got like explosive growth, right? And you look at the, just like a kind of stacked, a bar chart of the cohorts by age. And it's like, well, on any given day, the vast majority of users are new or they're less than a month old.Right. And then like you go, you fast forward two years or three years, and a really good app, that'll be flipped because you've, you've retained people. The vast majority of people that use your product every day are old. I mean, in terms of like when they adopted your product, because it's sticky because it's retentive, right.And that's a, that's a great place to be. But that, that you've got to change the way that you think about product optimization at that point. Like when you're going through the product iteration process, like, well, you're not optimizing for the newbies anymore because there's way fewer than you got to keep the old timers involved and engaged and.Right. Cause, you know, that's just where the vast majority of your revenue is coming from. Right. And, and, you know, and, and at that point you've probably reached, you know, some proportion of your Tam. And so you might not even be doing new user acquisition as such anymore. You might be doing a lot of retargeting re-engagement.And so it's just like, you gotta be very conscious of like the life cycle of the app, what the, what the user base looks like in terms of composition by age and like all that kind of stuff. And it just, it just takes a lot of consideration and it's it's, you know, and if you get to any point where like any of those, any of those distributions is skewed to an extreme, to an extreme one direction or the other, you probably got a problem.Like if you're all organic, you're not you leaving money on the table. If you're all old timers, when you're not growing anymore, if you're all 00:53:39 David:Right, 00:53:39 Eric:Retaining enough. Right. It's like all these different levers that you got to pull to make sure that you hit the optimal sort of combination.00:53:45 David:Yeah. That's great stuff. I love the way you put that too. I think there is some level of magical thinking that if I have just the right app, I never have to do marketing, marketing is a dirty word. Spending money on marketing is. It is wasteful or only companies with bad products have to do marketing and that's just not true.What's especially funny. a lot of these folks or indie developers who hold up Apple to be the end, all be-all Apple spends tens of billions of dollars on marketing, Apple measures that marketing while at the same time, you know, enacting ATT. App Tracking Transparency So it is funny that dichotomy of, and the magical thinking of I shouldn't have to pay for users.My product should be good enough it, really is just magical thinking. ultimately, spending money on marketing is a good thing. Not a bad thing. I love that perspective.00:54:39 Eric:Yeah, my, we had a Halloween party for my son and his classmates he's, he's very young and he was, he like, he did this thing where, you know, he wanted to be two things for Halloween. So they had like a, you know, a parade of their school. And then, we had, you know, we just had Halloween day country competing and stuff anyway, so he wanted to be a dinosaur.And then he decided he wanted to be a vampire for the Halloween day. so we had to get him a second costume. He was a vampire and a, and we're having this party and someone was like, oh, you look like such a scary vampire. I was like, I work in digital advertising.I'll show you what a vampire. looks like, It's this idea about digital advertising. Oh man. It's, so disgusting. it's crass gross. You have to spend money to acquire users That's that's that's that's so, vulgar, but in reality, you're leaving money on the table.If you could be doing it and you're not00:55:35 David:Right. 00:55:36 Eric:That's not good. 00:55:37 David:Yeah, totally. So, so, that, that's actually a great place to wrap up. Like where, where do we go from here? So ATT App Tracking Transparency is what it is. We don't know what Apple's going to do. We hope they make things better, but, what is the future of, of app install ads? What is the future of, of marketing your app successfully?00:55:57 Eric:It's funny because I, have been the biggest, crypto skeptic since day one. I remember people were telling me about Bitcoin in 2011 and I was like, this is a joke. Like, this is a, there's no need for this. There's no use case for this. I still feel that way, but it's gotten to a point where I feel like it's actually inculcating new behaviors where this is just.Crypto in general is probably the thing that introduces us to these ideas. it's like an imperfect way to implement them, but it makes us think about them. then there's going to be a solution that follows The structure of crypto. that is, is actually the better way to, to, to implement these ideas.But I've worked with a number of web 3.0 gaming companies. Right. And, and their challenge is that they can't be on the App Store. they're running like web properties. how do you promote that? And, the thing is if you're running it on the web, you can access it from your mobile device.I can access these games from my device It's just not on the App Store. if you get one of these that blows up, you get the halo of web 3.0 games. You get the, hit game that, creates the space for this category to thrive.Then. Maybe it just becomes, you know, acknowledged that yeah, we can go through the App Store if we want specific types of games, but if we want these other types of games, we just go straight to the browser. my big question is why did Apple do privacy really in the first place? maybe it was to actually route everything through the App Store, That would be the cynical conspiratorial take. It's that they want to prevent your access to the open web or they want to gatekeep it. so they're going to decide what you're able to access. But anyway, There are a lot of web 3.0 companies thinking about this right now.They can't go to the App Store, So there's no app install ads for them. It's all web-based. and, and also, you know, they've done a great loves Web 3.0 companies have done a great job of fostering community-driven marketing, Getting a discord server with 20,000 or 100,000 people in it.And That's where you advertise. you never have to pay for anything. now that's a first-mover thing. And I think that declines as more people enter the space. There are just, you know, there's just too many of these, these sort of games to, to sort of rely on that.But a lot of companies are thinking about that right now. How do we drive people to the web to do acquisition? Right. A lot of, you know, as, you know, a lot of, subscription companies, have been doing that for a long time, There are well-worn strategies for doing this. And they've been monetizing that way for a long time too.They haven't been screaming about it. But they've been doing it. now that, well, okay, now that's probably, that's, that's a policy that's allowed to, you're allowed to do that. Apple blesses. Well, they don't, they, anyway, they say we can't stop you. Maybe the consequence of this whole thing is that it just moves people into the browser. there's the web 3.0 piece of it, which, who knows maybe that is a dud. Maybe it's a gigantic category. I'm not convinced either way yet, but you've got people that are saying I'm going to set up web shops I made the point that like, look, I don't think that, you know, there's, there's, there are systematic reasons why that probably doesn't become a mass-scale solution.A lot of people are doing that anyway. A lot of games are doing that anyway. That's the other dirty little. secret A lot of gaming companies were sending emails saying, Hey, you know what, don't buy these IAPs in the app. Be

Our guest today is Eric Crowley, a tech investment banker with GP Bullhound. With investments in companies ranging from Spotify to Whoop, and clients such as AllTrails, Pinkbike, and Lingoda, GP Bullhound provides transaction advice and capital to many of the leaders in the Consumer Subscription Software space.On the podcast we talk with Eric about his 2021 report on Consumer Subscription Software, the truth about LTV calculations, and the new era of organic user acquisition.In this episode, you'll learn: Was 2020 just a “COVID Bump,” or a shift in consumer behavior? Are the Bumble & Duolingo IPO multiples justified? How savvy developers are adapting to Apple's App Tracking Transparency The truth about LTV The new era of customer acquisition Links & Resources Spotify Whoop AllTrails Pinkbike Lingoda Bumble Duolingo Instacart Match Group Netflix Noom Weight Watchers Tinder The Dyrt Day One Journal Automattic Tech Crunch Scribd Pandora Eric Crowley's Links Follow Eric on Twitter GP Bullhound GP Bullhound insights Eric's LinkedIn GP Bullhound 2021 CSS survey Follow us on Twitter: David Barnard Jacob Eiting RevenueCat Sub Club Episode Transcript00:00:00 David:Hello, I'm your host. David Bernard. And with me, as always, RevenueCat CEO, Jacob Eiting. Our guest today is Eric Crowley, a tech investment banker with GP Bullhound. With investments in companies ranging from Spotify to Whoop, and clients such as AllTrails Pinkbike, and Lingoda, GP Bullhound provides transaction advice and capital to many of the leaders in consumer subscription software.On the podcast, we talk with Eric about his 2021 report on consumer subscription software, the truth about LTV calculations, and the new era of organic user acquisition.Hey, Eric, welcome to the podcast.00:00:56 Eric:Hey, David, Jacob. Thanks for having me back. It's always a pleasure. 00:00:59 David:Yeah. Every year you release this report, so we had to get you back. This is the third annual Consumer Subscription Software Report, and I wanted to kick off just asking you a little bit about the motivation, and where your headspace is in thinking about creating this. Who the target is, and what kind of questions you're asking yourself as you prepare this report.00:01:24 Eric:Yeah. The report is the GP Bullhound Consumer Subscription Software Report. I call it CSS, which is kind of a playoff SaaS. This is the third year I've been writing it, and it started back in 2018. I worked with a company called AllTrails that was starting to monetize really well by selling subscriptions.It was like a light bulb went off in my head. I was like, this is a phenomenal way to provide a consistently improving product to consumers, where the margins are pretty good. It's easy to access a ton of different people globally through the app stores or through the web, and I just got really excited about it.I started putting some notes down on my own, and then GP Bullhound really supported me in saying like, “Hey, this is actually a pretty big trend. There's gonna be some amazing companies built around this space,” and companies like RevenueCat, that are supporting CSS companies, are just as exciting.So, we've been slowly educating ourselves. The goal behind the report is really just to force me to do some thinking about the space. What it looks like. What it will be. As a banker, you can quickly focus on transaction, transaction, transaction, and not really do any long-term thinking about where the world's going.It's putting myself in your guys's shoes. You guys are building RevenueCat not for what the world looks like today, but for what the world looks like in three to five years. I try to take the same approach with CSS, and think about where's the world going to go. So I talked to a lot of smart people as I put the report together. Entrepreneurs, investors, get their opinions.You guys can see their interviews in the report, and then ultimately we publish it. The audience I like to think about is entrepreneurs, people that are thinking about starting a CSS company, or already launched one, and they're looking to improve their metrics, or think about their target audience as entrepreneur-rich.By partnering with them, investing in their businesses, it takes them to the next level. The other way I like to think about it, it's my own personal scoreboard. I love to flip back two years ago and see, was I right about this company? You're publishing in public, so people can always come back to you and say, “Man, you were way off.” So, I look forward to that.00:03:26 Jacob:I remember the F finding the first one, the 2018, I guess, reporter 2019, whenever the first one you put out,00:03:33 Eric:2019, I think that's how we met actually.00:03:36 Jacob:Did you reach out to me or? I think I found it, or I don't remember what it was, but00:03:39 Eric:We've had a mutual friend, Nico introduced us and said, Hey, you guys should talk about this. and then I think we just went off on a two hour tangent.00:03:47 Jacob:But yeah, I remember being, it's still, there's still not a ton of like really focused research or writing on this space. and I think that, that, you know, this will probably won't be true for very long, right. As long as it continues to grow, but like going back to like who it's for. I mean, I imagine it as some, you know, end of the day, if you're employing.Pushing into some kind of lead gen. Right. But it does provide a lot of value for, you know, even if you're not interested in a transaction or whatever, just. Some like holistic data on a space. Cause like, I, the same, I mean, Eric, you said we're, we're thinking three and five years in the future. It's like, I wish like a lot of times I'm thinking like three to six weeks in the future.Right. and so it's even useful, I think, you know, even if you're, you know, I, you know, we're, we're in a bit of an interesting place as a infrastructure provider to be at kind of a bird's eye view, but it. Founder on one of these CSS apps, you know, like it is useful for you to know, like what's the meta environment, how's it evolving, you know?And if nothing else to like connect you with other people who have experimented with things and stuff like that. So, yeah, I think it provides beyond, beyond the, the, the lead gen aspect of it. It provides a lot of value for people. So I'm glad, I'm glad you're, you're still doing it. 00:05:04 Eric:Yeah. And just for any of the listeners, it is free. So you just go to the GP, bullhorn.com website. It's all easy to download and then you can see all our past reports as well. So 00:05:12 David:Yeah, and we'll drop it in the show notes. but, yeah. And, and, and speaking of all that, you know, it, it's something we as RevenueCat want to get more into as well. I mean, just seeing how much value you've created in producing these reports, and we're kind of sitting on a, you know, Processing over a billion dollars a year in, subscription revenue.We've got a lot of interesting data that, that we, that I'm very personally excited to share that we haven't, kind of had the infrastructure to, to do yet, but are, are getting there. And, so hopefully we'll, we'll have our own kind of, state of subscriptions that dives into the data and some of the trends and stuff in a different way than, than your kind of, strategy and higher level look at things.But when one thing that has happened, in the actually. It was announced before your last report, but actually implemented since your last report. And that's the app tracking transparency and iOS 14, which didn't actually ship till iOS. What was it? 14.4 or five or something. So, so we're kind of just now starting to see the impacts of it.And, and, you know, you took a couple of slides in your report to start discussing it. And it really is kind of one of the biggest topics and top of mind for subscription app developers, because it really is a huge shift in the landscape. So I want it to. Start with talking about that. And one of the things you shared in the, in the presentation is that you feel like it's a short-term pain, that's ultimately going to lead to a long-term gain.So I'd love to hear your thinking around what that pain is, but then also what you see the long-term game being.00:07:01 Eric:Yeah, it's a, it's a, great point. And, you know, anytime apple or Google make changes to their, their, their app stores, right. It's a seismic shift throughout the industry because it's something that impacts everyone. And so everyone has to be aware of these changes and then ultimately have a plan for them.And so I think that the change you're talking about David is really the. The implementation of, removing tracking for a lot of, a lot of these businesses specifically, like. And so what the change did with IDFA, is it, it really deprecated the ability for, for marketers within some of these CSS businesses to really accurately target people, specifically using Facebook or some of these other social networks.And so what it's doing is it. It's impacting the conversion rates on, CSS, CSS, businesses, marketing to consumers. And so if you just can't find that person that just is in love with, for example, biking, if you're a Strava marketer, it just takes you a lot longer to find that specific subscribers you might have to market to 10 people now to find two subscribers versus before you can market to five people and find two subscribers.And so it just means marketing efficiencies going down. And that can mean. Growth rates. It can impact conversion rates and ultimately impact just financials of these businesses. And so it's a pretty important consideration for any, CEO marketing team on how they go out and get their, their business in front of consumers.If Facebook's no longer as efficient, they have to find other ways. And so. So my, my thought is like, this is a short-term problem, right? It's something that's going to take people two to three months to adapt and find a new way to reach consumers. But ultimately my hope is for the space is you see the long-term game, which is what I was referencing.People really focus on organic ways of acquiring customers. Right? So instead of just pumping ads through Facebook and trying to find someone who fits a profile, you spend a lot more time really narrowly targeting your demographic, your niche, and then finding ways for them to find your product organically either.You know? So like a company that I work with, we sold a company called Pinkbike and so what they do is they partner with, the trade associations for mountain. And those trails associations now act almost as the marketing partner of pink bike to let consumers know about the fact that all the trail details.Is on, is on the pink bike app or it's called trail forks. And so that's, that's a really powerful, organic customer acquisition tool that they don't have to pay for. And so you're seeing, seeing the same thing happen with, like Strava is doing this, pre.com recently partnered with the NFL. So if your team's got a last fourth quarter fuel goal and you need to get something kicked, you can go to pray.com and submit a prayer for your kicker. I wish I was joking. It's a pretty brilliant idea. So I think this is really good for the sector overall, but yeah. Happy to dive into it. It's it's a fascinating00:09:37 Jacob:We it's a callback to a sub club podcast content, but, Greg, this, the plant app, this is something that they were doing, which is like, we're partnering with, plant nurseries. Yeah. To like, get their app into people's hands. And, yeah, I don't know if it's an earned media or. Bought media, but this is more like this is earned, right?This is like building an audience. You've seen it in the maker community, actually a lot, like in the indie SaaS community, more it's a different game when it has to be consumer scale. Right? Like there's a little bit different. You have to build maybe a bit more than you would in like, oh, just blog about.Built this thing and that's enough to get Indies, but you can apply the same thing, right? It's like produce content, produce something like low investment for users to get engaged with your brand because you're not building an app unless you have some, I mean, maybe you are, but you're not going to build something with very high, like multiples.Like if you're, if you don't have something unique to offer in the first place, but put that into like a more like lightly consumable format, start to build that audience and then make that an on-ramp and yeah, I agree. Like that's, that's something you own, right? Like your brand is. your brand doesn't exist on the app store, right?Like your brand can exist outside of these, like shifting sands and regulations and whatnot, and ultimately is like, you know, going to get reflected in your asset value if that's something you care about. Right. So, 00:10:53 Eric:Yeah, that's a key thing we talk about, right. If any business that we look at that's potentially selling or, or thinking about raising capital, right? It's like, how are you finding your. And if you're, if you're one channel is Facebook, and then consequently, like doing Facebook ads or apple ads on the, on the app store, that becomes pretty challenging.And so you want it to be such a good product, right? So it involves more work upfront. And just as you're talking about Jacob, the product's gotta be better. It's gotta be more efficient. It's got to reach consumers where they are with the problem they have. it becomes a lot more viral and a lot more sticky.So I think, I think it's going to be good for the sector.00:11:26 David:You wouldn't want to name names of course, but I am curious if. Had any clients, or just talks about anybody in the space where they were very reliant on Facebook specifically, and then, and have really struggled as things have changed. You know, I've been seeing some tweets around the, the consumer packaged goods space where some of these CPG companies are really struggling.And so I'm just curious. You know, without naming names, if, if there's any kind of high level things you could share around, apps that have struggled in this new paradigm. 00:12:02 Eric:Yeah. I mean, I definitely can't name names, you know, obviously I keep everything confidential with my clients, but even non-clients, you've seen CACs go up 20, 30%. you see, like, if you think about like conversion rates from installs to subs, That's a big metric of actual intent. Did you find the right user, right?Did someone just click on it and download it? Great. But if they're not actually subscribing that wasn't a successful transaction for you. And so the way I think about this, David is it's the app stores made tracking a lot harder, so it's harder to find your right consumer. So imagine if you're a CPG company, you walk into a grocery.And instead of stuff, being laid out perfectly across the shelves at the right height for you, they just tossed everything in the middle of the store and said, find what you want. Just go pick it out. Right. You're going to have much lower conversion. You're going to have much lower purchase rates because people aren't being targeted with the stuff they want to see.And so I think now you have to find, you know, it becomes more of a specialty situation where you're walking into a store that has stuff for just outdoor gear or very healthy granola. Right. And you're going specifically to that store for that. That's probably better in the long term, for a lot of these companies, 00:13:01 Jacob:Yeah, but there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of folks that have benefited from this ease relative ease, right. And any sort of market disruption is going to be painful. I was like, anecdotally, I mean, David, we've heard on this podcast and elsewhere people who have just like straight up pause acquisition, who are like all re scrambling because yeah.You get it tuned to this very fine knife edge. And I imagine for like consumer physical goods, like DDC stuff, it's even worse because their margins are thinner than software. Right. 00:13:28 Eric:And you've got inventory and everything. Yeah. It's a totally different. 00:13:31 Jacob:But, you know, as you do like you, the market reshuffles and the people, I can figure it out, the fastest are gonna are going to come out the best.So. 00:13:39 Eric:There's going to be a shift though. So people under this is like that seismic shift that just shows how much of your reliance is on maybe one or two channels. Right? Two, two major tech companies sitting here in San Francisco. If you're super, truly relying on those and you're doing great, fine.But if a bump happens, right, how exposed are you? And so like, this will be a benefit. Right. I think it's going to be a huge benefit for Tik TOK. Right? I think people are finding really good ways to acquire customers through tic-tac. And so that's a very interesting channel. I think it'd be really good for influencers, right?If you have people that are very passionate about a certain space and then they go out and, you know, have a very core customer base that loves what they do specifically. It's going to be pretty powerful for them to.00:14:18 David:Yeah, and I was just gonna say, anecdotally, you know, we haven't done a super deep dive in our data, but at a, at a high level, I was. Bracing for our numbers to take a big dip. Like I, I mean, Jacob and I had talked about it in the spring about, you know, how, what is going to look like for RevenueCat, you know, are some of these subscription apps just going to completely unwind and people are apparently figuring it out because you know, it keeps going up until the right. 00:14:49 Jacob:I mean the consumer, the consumer need hasn't disappeared. Right. So maybe if they just weren't driven, you know, it's not going to, it can't just disappear overnight. Right? Like if you never, if you, if you are a Coke fan who never saw Coke out again, and it's like, you're still gonna buy it. Right. Like there's, there's, there's a certain amount of demand.That's just going to find the supply. But, but yeah, no, I mean, it's hard for us to, to definitively say looking at our data and aggregators. Cause there's so much, but they're definitely. Like this summer was definitely slower than we've had in the past. Like on my, as I'm writing my investor updates of the year and each month and stuff looking at it.But yeah, it wasn't like this catastrophic, you know, macro thing. And they were talking about a lot of like, you know, probably outliers that we hear about people who were affected, you know, more than others, but overall. I, I don't think our, I don't think our prediction last year of, of a potential recession was necessarily false.Like it doesn't, it definitely doesn't feel like it's sped up the ecosystem. Right. But it doesn't necessarily feel like a depression, right. Maybe, maybe a slight recession or just the normalization. 00:15:49 David:Looking at our data in aggregate that, some folks use this to their advantage and actually, and, and accelerated because they knew it was coming and they did focus more on product and organic and other things. And so for whatever, you know, losses, there were. Other folks more than made up for that.And that's it kind of the interesting thing about working with so many, I mean, we're closing in on 10,000 apps on revenue cat. And so, you know, you kind of have a pretty broad basket where you, you know, there are going to be winners and losers, but in aggregate subscription apps are just continuing to tick along and do really well. 00:16:26 Eric:David it's like you read directly from bullets on my report. I, I, I completely agree with you.00:16:34 David:Another thing I wanted to dive into was the, the COVID bump. Cause that's, that's another thing that's kind of been on everybody's mind is simultaneous to this. I was 14 and, and this is something we've talked about again internally, with revenue cat, is it. This summer was the, everybody who was vaccinated and, and Delta hadn't kind of bumped yet.And so, you know, may, June and July, there was a big shift socially. kind of it felt like it, especially in the U S that we were coming out of the pandemic. and, and so simultaneous to the app, tracking transparency, going into effect, we had these like societal shift. And then now we're kind of back into it a little bit with the Delta surge, but just curious what your thoughts are on how much of the boosts we saw in 2020 really was dependent DEMEC and then how much of that will actually linger as kind of shifting consumer preferences and shifting consumer spend.00:17:36 Eric:Yeah. I mean, there's, there's absolutely a companies that benefited from us is called the removal of inf in in-person conversations. Right? So like Bumble and DuoLingo, two companies that both went public, right. They both benefited because their, their business model is designed around, not meeting in person for the first couple of conversations.Right. And so. There's no way to say that they didn't benefit. the way I think about it, though, in this, in the CSS space, it's very similar to like the overall e-commerce space, right? Is consumers looked around to find a solution for a problem they're having right. Instacart you couldn't, you couldn't go to the grocery store or maybe you felt less comfortable going to the grocery store.So you tried an Instacart for the first time. Maybe you were, you know, thinking about meeting someone, you know, long-term but you never, you never wanted to try online dating or you couldn't go to the bar. So you tried online dating for the first time and sorry. What the pandemic did was it really opened up people's eyes to other options from what they'd been doing for the last 20 years, 50 years, whatever it was.And so they had to find other solutions to, you know, their demands, their needs. And so I don't, I think it's absolutely a COVID bump, but I still look at it as really as an accelerant of people adopting new products and services that they would have tried in three to four years. but the pandemic kind of pushed them to try something, to move out of their comfort zone and try something new.So, you know, I absolutely think you'll see a little bit of a downshift in, in some of these companies that had a really big boom, right? Like language learning. People had nothing to do for four to five months, especially over some of the winter times. So people tried new hobby, tried language learning, you know, that'll probably go down a little bit, but overall, if you look at it from like a five-year trend, It's going to be up substantially from where it was in 20 17, 20 18, 20 19, and 2020, you know, made it look like a little bit of bump, but eventually I think those companies will continue to grow and surpass what anything they did in 2020. 00:19:21 David:Yeah, that's really interesting.00:19:22 Jacob:I'll back that up as well with the, the unreleased, Jacob looks at graphs and then gives a, gives a hand wavy descriptions of them. But we, yeah, we, we were, I was kind of bracing for it as well. And then I would say this summer was slow and like, David was. We're not sure why. I think it was, I think it was a number of factors things have since picked up again.But I think generally summers are slow for software a and then B. Yeah, I think we were seeing kind of like a little bit of the payback for, for COVID perhaps it's a, it's a vial. I think it's a plausible theory. We don't, it's really hard to prove. but we have not seen, you know, we, we saw our COVID experience was really drastic.And we have not seen. Similar, like back off from that, like, it has been like, it has been like we just compressed six months and I'm saying partially, this is just revenue casts, individual story because of where we were last year. But then I think also it's, it's indicative of the system in general.It's like, I think, yeah, we just compressed a whole bunch of, like consumer behavior change into like a very short period of time. And yeah, we're not gonna be able to keep that up. Right. We're not gonna be able to continue. To, to crunch that in, or we'll run out of consumers eventually. But, but it doesn't look like everybody's, you know, because, you know, I think the story for CSS in general, it's like we've delivered value for people, right?Like it's, it's a good, it's a good product, right? The whole line, not every product is good, but in general it's like a it's, it's a decent deal. And so I, I think more people discovering that. Yeah, it can only get bigger, right.00:20:55 Eric:Yeah, I think we talked about it in our first year, our first time together, right on the last podcast, which is if these businesses are truly making consumers' lives better, this is going to be a very long-term.00:21:04 Jacob:Yeah. 00:21:05 David:And speaking of that, and the two companies you just mentioned, in the, Time since we last spoke, but Bumble and DuoLingo went public and some other consumer subscription, apps went public. so tell me a little bit about your, your perspective on the, the public investor. Excitement for CSS.I mean, we're seeing pretty high multiples in the both of those IPS did, did very well. so what are you seeing in the, in the public investor space?00:21:33 Eric:Yeah, I think, I think the public market has really woken up to this business model, the power of it and understanding, you know, it's public markets. They do a lot of pattern matching, right? If they've seen something be super successful, they look for something that looks similar to that. And so I think a lot of people are waking up to, how powerful Salesforce is not waking up.They're well awake, very aware of SAS businesses. But I think they're seeing that same pattern starts to take, hold on, CSS. It just has different metrics. Right? And so, you know, Bumble's now public, the match group's been public for quite some time. Once I spun out of IAC, you've got Netflix and Spotify, which are fantastic examples of the international global reach of Content, and how consumers are very sticky for something they love.And so. These businesses who can get to scale really quickly, like you nuMe, right, is a competitor to weight Watchers. Weight Watchers has been around for decades, but Newman built a better mouse trap and they acquired customers at a really quick rate. And, you know, they're well over 400 million in revenue and ready for the public market.So I expect them to go public. Pretty soon. And so I think there's going to be a lot of businesses that follow them that are using this, this metric. So, and then that'll cascade all the way through, from public market investors as, as exit opportunities all the way down to, you know, series a series B investors, seeing this business model work and scale.00:22:47 Jacob:Yeah. I mean, I guess my, like, what's your, like, I, I, when, when we started seeing these go public in the last, like couple of years, so, well, I mean, honestly, it's like, Since we started RevenueCat, like was actually the, kind of the first unicorns, even like, I guess Bumble might've been passing unicorn when we got started, but like there weren't a ton and now it's like every, every month there's a funding announcement for a CSS company.That's a, that's a university. I mean, partially that's just like valuations going up and stuff like this, but like, how do you see. The evolution of this market. Long-term, you know, so DuoLingo pops becomes the first, you know, are they going to be like Salesforce and just be dominant in that space forever?Or do you see it being maybe more dynamic than sasses?00:23:31 Eric:I think it's a little more dynamic than SAS for, for a couple of reasons. One, new consumers like to try stuff, right. And so if it's with like a Salesforce or something, right. That integrates into your day to day operations from a business model perspective, right. So if something breaks there, right.Your business. 00:23:47 Jacob:Is very high. 00:23:48 Eric:Yeah, it's a little higher, right. And it's not just you using it. It's your entire business. Right? So you've got 10 people using this product or 20 people or 5,000, depending on the size of your company. Right. In CSS. It's it's you, maybe you and your family. Right? So it's a little bit of a different switching cost.So that's, that's one. However, these companies can scale a lot of. and they can, they don't have like the heavy, heavy cost and, you know, on the sales and marketing side. So I think they have an ability to actually get to profitability a lot faster, especially if they have an organic customer acquisition engine.And so I think that's going to be a big difference between that, between CSS and SAS. 00:24:23 Jacob:So, yeah, you mentioned the metrics are different. What are, what are the metrics that folks are, public investors are looking at for these companies that it might be different from a SAS company?00:24:33 Eric:Yeah. I mean, a lot of them are the same metrics, but the numbers that are like good are different, right? So like on a SAS business model, right. Revenue growth is just as attractive as a CSS business model revenue growth. Right. Everyone wants to see high double digits, triple digit numbers on revenue growth.But like an interesting thing is net revenue retention. Now that's very different, right? In CSS, you typically don't upcharge people or have additional seats be filled because it's just one person. Right. So, you know, maybe you get an. 00:24:59 Jacob:It's not much expansion opportunity. 00:25:00 Eric:Yeah, you can, you can do maybe some, some packages, upgrades, and people are starting to experiment that you can pack it and you can experiment with bump, bundling 00:25:07 Jacob:But it's certainly never going to be greater. It's never going to be net positive, right? 00:25:11 Eric:No, you're never going to see a net positive number where a lot of the SAS businesses, right.People are looking for net revenue, retention, numbers of north of one, 20, 120% net revenue retention 00:25:18 Jacob:I mean the opposite of churn, right. Which if you have a CSS business with opposite, Congratulations. like 00:25:25 Eric:Yeah. You're doing something well, and I haven't found it yet, but yeah, 00:25:28 Jacob:You might be the only one 00:25:29 Eric:Yes, I think that's right. 00:25:31 David:Quick, point though, to counterpoint to what y'all were both just saying, of all the apps, dating app, it's totally slipping my mind. 00:25:40 Jacob:Tinder. partnership. David, look at us. We're like on a wavelength. 00:25:46 David:They, they have in-app purchase. They have consumable in-app purchases to boost your, profile. They're one of the few that I've seen that could potentially actually have a. A a positive, net revenue retention. whereas most subscription apps are just a subscription. it's going to be interesting to see if other subscription apps can pull off that sort of model that you could actually generate a, a net net revenue retention. 00:26:19 Eric:I think you nailed it, David. So that's coming from. Right. I think people first experimented with, Hey, how do I get someone to buy my product every year or every month? Right. And now is how do you make it even better? So they're starting to listen to their core users. And we talk about this a little bit on the LTVs.And what do these people want and what makes this experience even better for them. And I think you nailed it with Tinder, right? It's the most, it's the easiest thing to convince people to, to encourage more is more, you know, more relationships, right? People love more relationships and people are willing to pay for that.And so, you know, then what else, what else could this go down the path of, right. What other options could people pay for additional services? Or what we've seen is like marketplaces or transactions spinning on. Right. So if you have a really passionate user base and they're going out there doing, camping, for example, like on, on the dirt, it's a camping site, right?What about doing a marketplace to buy and sell use tents right now is not a subscription, but now if someone's paying, like, okay, now they bought something through your marketplace and you get 10% of that purchase price. So there's going to be a lot of stuff. I think that happens there, to encourage that, to encourage that LTV numbers start rising, I just haven't seen a ton yet, make it happen above 00:27:26 Jacob:It's a scale problem. I need to do that either be at such scale for that to make sense. So I was going to say for anybody, listening to this, that hasn't reached 20 million in ARR, probably north of that do not add a marketplace to your 00:27:37 Eric:I totally agree with that. Very, very much focused focus, focus. And so I would even say like closer to 50 00:27:43 Jacob:Yeah. I mean, until you're like, how do we get this thing public? Or how do we show, like, how do we show like N plus one revenue streams, right? Like it's kinda more what it's about than it is necessarily the revenue generated. 00:27:53 Eric:I'm just a dreamer though. You're just a realist. I'm here, I'm here. And you're just telling me all that stuff that could go wrong. 00:27:58 David:One of the things you just kinda touched on that I wanted to dive deeper into was, was a truth about LTVs. And I love this slide on the, on your presentation, kind of defining these two cohorts, which I've never heard, defined this way. And I really loved the analogy and I'm going to start sort of stealing it from you and use.And crediting you of course. but in the presentation you define, tourists and locals, and then talk about kind of the importance of identifying these different cohorts. So tell me about Who the locals are and why that matters and who the tourists are and how companies can start, analyzing their data to understand this and better target marketing, better, craft the experience in the app and, and those sorts of things. 00:28:46 Eric:Yeah. So we're going to geek out here guys, and, really go deep into STSS. Right? So this is where, this is where my brain goes sometimes on a Saturday night, which is just exciting. but so the way I've been thinking about CSS a lot, and so the LTV component of CSS, which is lifetime value, Which I'm sure all your listeners are very, very well aware of is kind of like how much money can you make from this consumer over time.Right. And it's a function of your pricing and it's an, a function of your turn rate. And so, a lot of people are very focused on this metric as investors or buyers, right? Because it's effectively, how valuable is your customer? So it's an extremely important metric. The problem with this metric and lots of other metrics is it's, it's derived from an app.Right. It's looking at all your users that come into your, in your ecosystem is paying customers. And then how do they perform over time? and it's, it's driven, it's driven off an average of all your users. And so when I've gone through some of my client's data and you look at their user base, right, we, we quickly discovered there's a, there's kind of two different profiles.And I won't use any names here, but let's just, let's just say it's, a walking company, right? So you're, you've got people that go out and they, they sign up, you have a hundred people that. And 20 of them start walking every day and they're, and they, this is what they love and they're tracking, they're walking and you've got another 40 that do it for like a month or two.And then they kind of drop off and then just like, I'm going to go do biking or skateboarding or something. And I switch and you've got another people that sign up. They subscribed to it because their friend pressured him into it and they hate walking and they're never going to walk again and they turn off immediately.Right. So you kind of have those three different groups, some that are just going to do whatever. Some that do it for two to three months and then leave. And then some that do it the first month. And then say, forget this. I'm never going to use this again. And so the problem is your LTV of each one of those three groups are very, very different.And so what, we've, what we've been guiding investors and entrepreneurs, as they think about their growing their businesses, really find out who those locals are, who those people that are going to come and use your app every day, every week, every summer, whatever, whatever the metric is that you're looking.And find ways to measure that, right? Because ultimately that's who you need to bring to your community. And one, those people make the community run more robust, right? Cause they're constantly contributing feedback into the. To, they're much more likely to stay around with you guys. And so you need to find those tools that they're looking for.Right? Like seeing around the corner and saying like, okay, this person loves walking. What else can I provide them? What about a weather forecast? So now that they are about to go out and walking, you know, what does the weather look like? And, oh my God, this is now, this is my one-stop stop for, for walking.And so I think w we've been guidinGP Bullhound's like if you use the averages as a broad metric and that's great, and you should, because investors are going to want to know that, but, but really dig deep into your, your cohort and understand like who's using this every day, all day and what do they need. And so if you can really identify that and show that LTV to, to invest in.I think you can get people a lot more excited than just like that average LTV, right? Cause this shows them potential of what it can be over three to five years, which is really important if you're two or three year old company. Right. And try to convince someone to invest in you showing them that lifetime value of the tour or the locals is going to be a lot more valuable than that average.00:31:46 Jacob:I mean, if you think about just as the, you know, I think it's one of the, you highlighted one of the hard parts of assessing these businesses early on, is that yeah. Your cohort, your total subscriber base is very heavily biased on like your most recent cohort, because often you're also growing, right?Like that's often, like your most recent cohort might be the size of your first five, you know? just because, and for that reason you can really have scurry looking data. but you know, if you think five years from now, mostly. Those other two groups you mentioned there they'll have turned out from most cohorts.Right? And then the only ones remaining for four years of cohorts will be these locals and these long-term retention. And then your total subscriber base is gonna look very different than it does today. Right. And yeah, I'll admit revenue. I've tried to solve this problem in the product. And we still are trying to solve this problem in the product.It's how do we like show people? Cause you're, you're dealing with a mixed population, right? And like you, you can also also run into a problem with begging the COO or like doing very, like, look, you got to invest in and say like, look, look how great my retention is. If I just ignore them. Bad users. Right?Like, let me just look at the good ones. Right. But there is something there in that. What you're talking about, Eric, that long, that very long-term view is that if these users really do retain for a long time, eventually they will be the lion's share of. Subscriber base. And that churn that we talk about, like, you know, if you're adding 1% of your total user base, the most you can experience off of that as like 1% of churn, right.Versus when you're adding half, you know, if you have 110,000 subscribers and you add 10,000 in a month, that's going to be a huge effect to your overall subscription subscription base. Right. so yeah, I think, I think, you know, we certainly have a lot to build on the tooling side. Right. And I think it goes to what you're talking about.Air. We're very early. Like, I think we've just kind of solved infrastructure, like infrastructure. I mean, I would even say kind of, cause there's a lot for us that we need to do yet. but as far as like data science and actually yeah. Being able to outside of a spreadsheet, understand this stuff. It's it's, it's not trivial.It's not trivial. All 00:33:51 Eric:It's extremely hard. And I think like, cause there's so much more you could do once you've broken those two cohorts into tourists and locals, right? Like how do you acquire the locals versus how do you acquire the tourists? Are tourists coming through like Facebook, apple store and the locals are coming from referrals.Okay. So maybe your Facebook spend, is that even worth doing the spending on right. If they're, if they're turning off after a month or two, you know, subscribers is a vanity metric, right. If they don't. All right. You can grow. We talked about this in our 2020 report. We have like this cheetah versus thoroughbred.Right. And it's really easy to show a ton of growth. And you've got all these subscribers and everything is fantastic. Right. But if those subscribers get tired and they turn off right away, you kind of probably wasted money on them. Right. Maybe you got paid back in a month, right. So you didn't lose like on the CAC spend right in here, but you're not building your business.Right. You're just gonna you're pinching pennies. 00:34:36 Jacob:But not a lot of work. Right? Like it's not actually getting translated into business 00:34:39 Eric:Exactly. So is it better to kind of focus on the product, right? Figure out what those, those, tourists are using and spend less time on the marketing side and really nailed the products like, Hey, you'll probably grow slower, right? And That's an issue. That's a risk you have to take, but maybe you can grow more efficiently, more capital efficiency.00:34:55 Jacob:Capital's free now, so that's not a 00:34:58 Eric:That's a fair point of half my fault, I'll take full responsibility for some of that. Right. 00:35:03 Jacob:I think it's interesting how this like feeds into, you know, kind of going back to targeting and ad targeting how often. Optimized Facebook campaigns on like trial conversion. And that doesn't even that doesn't, that's all your tourists and your locals. I mean, maybe some of those that never even start a trial would be cause, but there's a lot of tourists in that group that started trial right.Or convert a trial. And a lot of people are targeting off of that. Right. And so as these methods become less. Good. it will force it'll force developers to yeah. Maybe do one of these scary things actually talk to users, right? Like actually like find those locals, like go in your analytics. And I think just the thing as you were talking about, I just want to point out that, like, I don't think you necessarily need to define this off of monetization retention either could just be retention, like pure usage retention, but it could also be engagement.Yeah. I think about the way Facebook, Oriented their growth teams very early on, which was like findinGP Bullhound that connected, like that was a really key step for them in their product, was to get people to make like three or four. I forget there's some number of friends and they oriented all of their growth efforts around that.Find the thing that people do in your. Shows that they're engaged and give them opportunities to show that. And then, you know, you can use that as an indicator. Okay. Talk to those folks and actually talk to them, right? Like find out, always put something in your app that lets you reach out to them in some way.And like, have you can get on a zoom call. I've done. It's easier now in SaaS land because like, I, I, I, people I'm an app. People like I know how to talk to them, but when we were, when I was working in consumer. Phone calls were more awkward, right? It was different. You're not going to books like outside of computer land, but still like just incredibly valuable.And, and, and, and I think like, you know, if we want to talk about the way to build the way to fully realize how CSS is going to, I'm just going to go all in on your turmeric, by the way, I said, I'm going to, 00:36:57 Eric:That.00:36:57 Jacob:I'm going to push it. We're going to standardize. But 00:36:59 Eric:It's not trademark, but knock it out. 00:37:01 Jacob:All right. So to fully like, to fully realize the potential to like help problems for people.Like, I think we need to lean into this more of this model. Right. Rather than I've always kind of like had an uncomfortable relationship with how our RevenueCat fits into the like hyper fast monetization stuff. Right. I'm like, get users, check your CAC, put more money into Facebook. Right. And so, the more the industry gets away from that. The happier I am. I don't know. Like you said, maybe it doesn't go quite as fast, but I think the overall Tam will be larger. Right? If we take that approach,00:37:33 Eric:Think that's right. And, you know, I mean, I've talked to a bunch of founders that haven't raised capital. Right. And they build something that like their users love. Right. Like, so I don't know if you guys saw the deal with day one that got bought by automatic braised almost as your outside capital.Right. He built. 00:37:46 Jacob:Big fans that they won. 00:37:47 Eric:Yeah. Yeah. I was a big,I got it's an awesome business and he did that exact same thing. Right. He just listened to his users. He didn't care about vanity metrics grew really nicely. Right. And it wasn't like, you know, he's not getting tech crunch publishing, but that's fine. Right. You know, on an amazing business.And then, you know, I've got a fantastic exit out of it. So I think, I think people are really waking up to that's a very much a possibility here in the.00:38:08 David:Yeah, one thing I wanted to highlight too, in that graph that you made, and for people that are listening to this, you can go to the show notes. We'll have links to the, Eric's presentation and you can find this chart, but to visualize it00:38:25 Jacob:Page 18. it open right here. 00:38:27 David:Following along at home, the, line for the locals drops.So, you know, even, even for locals, you're going to have some turn early on, but then it essentially flat lines. and I'm sure you did that very purposely to kind of illustrate how. How long term some of these, these, this retention can end up being, and it's something we've actually been talking on the podcast about recently is that we're so early in the space.We don't even really know what, how to measure LTV. Cause you're going to have people who ended up subscribing for decades. and years and years and years, if not decades. And so, and, and then, you know, to your point about the cheetah versus thoroughbred, another great chart in the patient number, Jacob Page number00:39:16 Jacob:I 00:39:17 David:Cheetah versus thoroughbred but in that tuna versus thoroughbred, The other aspect to locals, and we're kind of touched on it earlier is that those cohorts start to stack. So when you identify this cohort, that is going to be a very long-term cohort. That's going to stay subscribed and have very low churn. You, you acquire a hundred thousand this year, and then they're still there next year.And you put a hundred thousand on top of that. And those are still there next year. And by year three, you know, you just continue to grow this pie of people who are very, very sticky in the product. And I think that's part of what. you know, what you're talking about with delinquent and Bumble and other companies is like, we're still just starting to understand even as different as this is from SaaS.We're starting to see similar dynamics as far as. Early on the churn is so high, but then you do have this really strong stickiness over the long-term that, that, that can build a really healthy business of people who really love your, your product and really are invested in it and are going to stay for a really long time.So yeah, I just wanted to point that out that, that I, I love that aspect of the chart of how flat that line is for the locals. 00:40:35 Eric:I mean, you, you can see it in your own spending patterns, right? Like how many of you guys have subscribed to Netflix or Spotify for more than five years? I bet it's a good chunk of your listeners. Right? So, I mean, if I look at my phone, right, I'm going to subscribe to all trails for the next decade, 00:40:47 Jacob:Yeah, I've got CSS. I I've started subscribing to in 20 13, 14, like as 00:40:52 Eric:Yeah. 00:40:52 Jacob:It was a thing, 00:40:53 Eric:I've, been a script user for four years and I still download audio books or download other books from like the San Francisco library. Cause I'm probably the cheapest banker of all time. but you know, I still use script 00:41:04 Jacob:It's finding margin, Eric you're finding margin. That's what that is. 00:41:07 Eric:Exactly. I've pinched counties all day.But yeah, so I mean, I, I think those tails David to your point are still being written. And so that's the whole point, right? If you use average LTV and you say, all right, well, we have 30% churn that math means you lose every user in three years, and that's just not how it works. And if with really good businesses that are delivering value, right?And so then once you convince people of that, right, the investment case becomes a very different company.00:41:30 David:And speaking of that, you, you had a great, slide on investor benchmarks. And so I wanted to get to that real quick, tell me about how you, how you thought. These different metrics. And what, and how investors think about these metrics? Because you know, we're talking about LTV and in there you have LTV to CAC of you, you know, for a really strong app, that investor would be super excited about.You're closest to. Six X versus less than three X, you start to cool off. So, yeah. Walk us through each of these metrics and kind of how you think about it, how you think investors think about it, And even how that's kind of maturing as we understand the space better. 00:42:10 Eric:Yeah. And just to note like these metrics are all different for different types of businesses, right? If you've been around for a year, these metrics are very different versus if you've been around for 10 years, right. If you're in high growth, you know, venture back, spending a lot of money, these metrics look very different than if you're a bootstrap business, you know, just trying to inch out.You know, 10% growth a year. Right. So they can be very different. And the important thing is how does the story of your business and what you're trying to accomplish tie to these metrics? Right. So that's what we spent a lot of time talking to founders about is, is what's good based on what you're trying to do.Right. So it's just how you, how do you tell your story through the metrics? but yeah, so a couple of your points on the S on the slide, we talk about like user growth rates, gross margins, LTV to CAC, churn rates, free to paid conversion rate, and then sales efficiency. and then, you know, just to talk about something different, we, we talked about LTV a little bit earlier, but maybe talking about, churn, right.And so like how quickly do people churn off? Right. And so that's, there's a couple different ways to interpret churn, right? It's one, they didn't find your product. Too. They thought it was really expensive. or if they're not turning, they really love something you've put together. Right. And they decided to pay you multiple times for that either monthly or annual.And so what we just try to do is try to tell the story of where the business is at and where it's going by looking at these metrics. And so, you know, that's why it's so important to truly understand these metrics, because if you don't understand the metrics, it's hard to tie that to the story. so we spent a lot of time with any client or even non-clients just talking about this stuff to truly understand, you know, what investors care about.And it's, you know, if someone's buying the business, they may care a very good. They may care about very different metrics for someone who's investing your business for growth, right? So someone's going to put 40%, $40 million on your balance sheet to go grow. They may be focused less on LTV to CAC now because your LTV is not formally formed, right.They don't know how good it is, but they will focus very heavily on churn, which is a reflection of how good your product is and how good you're finding consumers that love your product. Right. So those, those are metrics that they may focus. They made me more comfortable spending a lot of money in the next two years.Right. So your CACs going to look a lot worse because they watched, you acquire a lot of users to make the platform a lot better. Right. And a lot of CSS businesses, right. UGC is a, is a, is a spinoff of user activity on the post. Beautiful uploading photos reviews. They're adding new new items on, on the platform for other users to use.And so it's worth spending more money to get those people in the first two to three years because your platform becomes that much better and that much more valuable, right? So you may be willing to burn down to a, an LTV to CAC of three X or something like that in the near term, or sometimes even two extra one X, because it's a land grab for those.Once you're on their platform right now. You want to see that LTV to CAC, start to move up a little bit, right? So you start to put it to four or five, six X, LTV to CAC. So it's all about where your business is. It's each different stage, but it's important to have a story and a message around why your numbers are, what they are.00:45:03 Jacob:Of the, I have the slides up in third slide, 37 for anybody who's following along at home. all of these as a veteran SAS CSS person, every annual user growth rate, gross margin to be cash I'll clear me, sales efficiency ratio. Can you talk about that one? Cause that one's, that one's, not as a little foreign to me. 00:45:22 Eric:Yeah. It's, it's a, it's more of a metric that's come out of SAS just to be honest. So it's thinking about like, it involves like how, how many users are you gaining? It's how much revenue you're gaining versus how much money are you putting out there? So it's a little bit of a different metric. and most CSS businesses don't get to that yet because they typically don't have heavy sales team.And so we've included it because you're starting to see some of these CSS businesses really start to grow. And so how much revenue gaining versus how much revenue you're losing and how much is it costing you to do that? And so that's when you're starting to get into like the tens to $20 million of, of, marketing spend a year, it's, it's, important to understand like how efficient is that spend being, and this is the best metric 00:46:00 Jacob:We, it says called sales, but you actually throw in marketing, spend in there as well. So it's like all go to market spend 00:46:07 Eric:Yeah. Are using head count, not just like the ad dollars. right. 00:46:10 Jacob:Right. 00:46:11 Eric:It's like a fully loaded CAC number, like 00:46:13 Jacob:Your, all of your people telling Facebook what to do, 00:46:17 Eric:Yep, exactly. Exactly. 00:46:18 Jacob:Content graders, like all that stuff, right? Yeah. 00:46:20 Eric:If you've got a hundred people running around campus, right. Promoting your app. Right. Okay. How much those people cost. Right. So it's an important way to think about how much you grow. And it's a way to think about like how well can you grow a capitally efficient capital with limited amounts of capital.So it's an important one. We look at it, it's typically a later stage, right? So you've gotta be like north of 20 million of 00:46:40 Jacob:So he's going to be super high when you're small, right? Because you're, you're your. 00:46:43 Eric:Sir. Request important. 00:46:44 Jacob:People are discreet. Right. And that you can't, you're not continuous. So, and also your, your, your revenue just grows less because of like, you know, you're smaller, you're less, well-known like, you're less is momentum is things like this. 00:46:56 David:Well, we're starting to run low on time, but there's so much more I want to talk to you about, but just to hit one last thing. I also love this chart you did, of Pandora versus Spotify. It's such a. And encapsulation, really everything that we've been talking about on this podcast is to see how well Spotify revenue has compounded over the past few years versus a Pandora, which, which look was the juggernaut.You know, when, when, when Spotify started. so, so walk us through this chart. And in how and why you think, you know, Spotify was able to, to grow the way they did while Pandora really struggled. And obviously there's a ton of, you know, other business factors and execution and other things. But, but I think overall, this does speak to the power of CSS.00:47:54 Eric:Yeah. And this is, this is something we did back in 2020 when we were just trying to decide like, Hey, what's is this CSS thing real? And, and a big question you get from, from investors. And listen, I think a lot of them have stopped asking this question because the case studies are out there is why would someone pay monthly or annually for something they can get for free?And by get for free, it means listening to, or watch. Right. And so I wanted to see like, alright, graphically or like actually numbers to will people, more companies make more money by making that really hard decision and say, pay me for what I'm giving you first. I'll give you something for free and exchange every half hour, you watch two minutes of ads, right?That's a really hard question to say, because it involves you putting a lot of value in your product. And so entrepreneurs, you know, product developers have to. Is this worth money or am I giving something out to people that, Hey, they'll kind of use it if they get it for free. Right? So it's a, it's a gut check for people to say, like, did I build something that someone will buy?That's hard. That's really challenging. Ask yourself, especially if you've started with advertising. and Spotify, you know, listen, they were a small company based in the Nordics, right. Versus Pandora US-based juggernaut and, and raised a lot of money. Right. That's a tough challenge. And so they took a really tough thing and said like, Hey, we're going to get.And make people pay for our product and we're going to make it better. But the crazy thing that happens though, right, is you make so much more on a user from subscriptions than you do from average. Right on advertising. You're trying to pick up pennies per subscription on some or pennies per user on the subscriber.You're making 10, 20 bucks a month, depending maybe maybe $60 a year for a subscriber. So the amount of users you have compounds so quickly, and then if you have that heavy retention, all of a sudden, you've got these really thick layers of cashflow that come in every year, use that cashflow. You invest it back in.He invested back in product and you do it again and again and again, and all of a sudden you've got a better product. And if you have a better product, people will come to it. And if it's something that they're using daily, right. Why would you not be comfortable like paying five bucks? Right. If I think about like how much my Netflix subscription is, right.It's $11 a month or something like that. Right. Well, I probably watch 10 hours of Netflix a month, right? So I'm paying a dollar an hour to be entertained. Pretty good deal. And so, like, I think if people, people start doing that math and you start to see like how powerful that that subscription is for user versus an ad driven, it becomes pretty interesting.And so I think you've seen this case study play out over and over and over across CSS, where if you build a good enough product, you know, a 10 X product versus the free option, people will pay for it. 00:50:24 David:And Spotify does double dip as well, which is interesting is that they have a good enough free tier and people can listen for free. But they choose to spend, even though they can. And so, so Spotify is a great example of, of double-dipping with a great freemium tier, but then a good enough product in a compelling enough reason that people will pay.00:50:47 Jacob:Yeah, another dimension. I don't know the specifics of Pandora and Spotify. It's like fundraising history, but if you have like the subscriber. Subscription revenue momentum makes capital more easy to access. And you look at some of this. I think of some of the strategic stuff that Spotify has done. Like they got the Beatles on Spotify pretty early on and lets up, they spent big on partnerships and Content and stuff.And if you have momentum, if you have hard dollars, it's a lot easier to go to an investor and be like, Hey, like I want to raise X million dollar. Revenue growth. I have, like, this is very clearly a business. I can remember raising money in the pre revenue is everything era or like trying to raise money.And it was like a lot harder. Right. Cause it was just like hand waves and we're going to grow and like, and now it's like, yeah, for better or worse, you go over the curtain and you show something. Right. But the big benefit too, I think for founders, it's not just for investor, for founders. It's like, yeah, you build a great business.You're building a safety net, right? Like if you can't fundraise, it's not the end of the world. Like you have options. And I think that's part of the reason why also, I mean, now we're getting into fundraising like macro, but that's part of the reason the funding environment is crazy because businesses are sturdier than they've ever been.Like they need capital less than they've ever needed it. Right. And so like, that's why it's gotten cheaper. or, you know, evaluation's gotten higher same thing. Right. So, Anyway. Yeah. And this is a fascinating to put this. I already was not on here, which was my horse. And I was like really pulling for them.And then it gets to a whole different story of why that's not on there. But, but yeah, it's fascinating.00:52:11 David:Well, I think that's a really fun place to end the story of Spotify, one of the biggest juggernauts in the space. We're going to include in the show notes a link to the report, a link to your LinkedIn and Twitter to follow along.Anything else you want to share as we wrap up? 00:52:27 Eric:No guys. Always a pleasure to join you. One thing for your audience users, we are trying to make the GP Bullhound CSS report a resource for founders. This year, for the first time ever, we did include a link to a survey.So, if you want to contribute your data, what we'll do is aggregate everything, anonymize it, and then we'll provide back a summary to users to say, “Hey, here's your LTV to CAC. How does this compare to other founders at this stage?” We are trying to be a resource. I'll probably give you guys that link, if you don't mind. We'd love to have as many people as possible. No pressure.Of course, all of it would be anonymized. This isn't a marketing tactic for us. It's us giving back to the community. We'd love people to take a second to do the survey, but if not, don't hesitate to email me, tweet at me, hit me on LinkedIn with questions, comments, and specifically stuff We got wrong. Absolutely love to hear where we can learn.00:53:22 Jacob:Yeah. 00:53:23 Eric:Because we're not building, we're just talking about what you guys are doing.00:53:26 Jacob:By the time you print this thing, it's like, stuff's changed, right? Like it's changing so fast.00:53:32 Eric:The whole Apple thing when we were publishing was happening everyday. And I was like, this is unbelievable.00:53:36 Jacob:And wait to...00:53:36 Eric:Since July, and I have to change every minute. Yeah. I had to change a PowerPoint. You guys had to change code. So I think one was a lot harder.00:53:44 David:Well, it was great having you on, Eric, and we'll have to make this an annual thing.00:53:49 Eric:Sounds good.You're welcome.00:53:51 Jacob:Yeah, we'll see you next year. 00:53:52 David:See you in 2022.00:53:54 Eric:All right. Thanks David. Thanks Jacob.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why it takes time to see results from SEO campaigns, and why it's worthwhile to stick it out Why your law firm's website should be the hub for all your marketing activity What granular web pages are and why they are crucial to rank in a competitive market How the technical side of your website, such as load time, can impact your marketing Why social media isn't the answer to all of your marketing needs What the biggest digital marketing mistakes that law firms make are About Eric Bersano Eric Bersano has been deeply involved in online legal marketing since 2006. He is the VP of Business Development at Market My Market, a digital marketing agency that helps businesses generate new clients by implementing the right systems and strategies. Depending on a law firm's goals, Eric ensures the best marketing channel and modalities are implemented, including search engine optimization, pay-per-click advertising, and TV and radio. His focus on the legal space gives Eric the network to utilize the most talented designers, programmers, and marketers in the country. His clients maintain very high rankings for competitive online searches at the city, state, and national levels. Additional resources: Market My Market Blog: https://www.marketmymarket.com/blog/ Legal Mastermind Podcast: https://legalmastermindpodcast.com/ Esquire University Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/esquire-university/id1561888137 Legal Mastermind Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/273634779949416 Market My Market Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marketmymarket/?hl=en   Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast Transcript Most law firms recognize that digital marketing is crucial to maintain market share in a competitive environment—yet many firms cling to outdated websites and marketing strategies. That's where Eric Bersano comes in. As VP of Business Development for digital marketing agency Market My Market, Eric has worked with hundreds of law firms to refine their SEO, pay-per-click and advertising efforts. He joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about the importance of having a website that's equally beautiful and functional; the most effective strategies to move up Google's rankings; and why the best marketing campaign is a well-rounded one. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Welcome to the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Eric Bersano with Market My Market. Eric specializes in legal marketing, especially in the all-important areas of search engine optimization, pay-per-click and radio and TV advertising. I've known Eric for several years and have always been impressed with his ability to break log jams. When a law firm thinks it's doing everything it should be doing, but is not getting the results it wants, they call in Eric. Eric, welcome to the program. Eric: Sharon, thanks for having me. Sharon: So glad to have you. I'm anxious to hear about this. We've talked about it before, but it's always changing. How did you get into working with lawyers? Eric: I'll try to make it a short story, but I was actually on the other side, working with doctors for a while. My mom didn't have a doctor or lawyer for a son, but I've worked with both now. I was working with doctors and orthopedic surgeons specifically. I had a friend who was in legal marketing, and he was telling me how great it was and that he enjoyed being a good resource to law firms. When you're working with orthopedic surgeons, I always said I'm never going to know as much as them about surgery or the implants they're putting in, but on the marketing side, I could become an expert and show some value to a law firm. If you change someone's practices for the better, meaning you're making them more profitable, they're very happy to talk to you. It was a much more rewarding career path that I've stuck with for the past 15 years now. Sharon: Did you study computers? Did you study marketing? What was your background and education? Eric: I did advertising in school. That was my major. I also did business and marketing. I've always been fascinated with how to grow a company and the messaging that goes behind it. What I've learned working with attorneys, it's messaging and efficiency: getting your message out in a hypercompetitive market, putting yourself in the ballgame, whether it's on TV, radio, print or the internet. You need to get yourself in the ballgame, and once you're there, it's all about efficiency. How is your intake process? How quickly can you respond to people? Because in the internet age, it's so easy to click the back button and go to the next law firm if you're not responsive. I do marketing, but I also do consulting with firms and let them know, “Hey, I've worked with other firms that are really good at this and this is what they do.” Some people will take the advice and pull it in-house, and some people will say, “Well, we're going to outsource that,” or “We're not situated to do that yet,” but I always try to be there as a sounding board to point out inefficiencies and solutions for them.  Sharon: There are a lot of roadblocks, as you were saying, about what comes next and making the process smooth. What does Market My Market do? What do you do in that world? Eric: Market My Market is a digital advertising agency and we focus on search engine optimization. I always tell people that a well-run search engine optimization campaign is typically going to be your lowest cost for good leads, and what I mean by that is SEO is typically a set fee. Whether you're paying $2,000 a month or $10,000 a month, that's the set fee. If you're getting one case a month or 20 cases a month, your fee doesn't change. With advertising, whether you're talking TV or pay-per-click or social media, the more you want, the more you pay, and those are sunk costs. If I'm going to pay $10,000 to Facebook this month to get cases, once that $10,000 is spent, I get no more residuals on that. Whereas with SEO, it's really about creating assets online, creating content, creating infographics, creating a presence. If you stop with that, you still have what you built up to that point.  Our firm, Market My Market, really concentrates on that organic side. We've got four members of the team that all worked in-house at law firms, so they understand how this process works from other side, what law firms are most interested in. SEO is compared—or at least I've made comparisons—to a used car salesman. All you need to have an SEO company is a laptop, a wi-fi connection and a phone and you can say you're an SEO person. A lot of the history has been based on proprietary secrets or a black-box type of thing, “We can't tell you what we're doing.” We take the opposite approach. We develop 30, 60, 90-day programs for everybody. We let the attorney know what we're going to onsite, what we're going to do from an SEO perspective and all the content we're going to write over that 90-day period. Each month we have meetings with the attorney and we go through that 30, 60, 90; here's what we provided; here's what we're going to provide; here are the current results. That way they can see the activity. SEO in a competitive market can be expensive. Law firms, on more than one occasion, have said, “O.K. we're paying you all this money. What are you doing for me each month?” We want to be able to answer that question emphatically and show the results.  Sharon: That's interesting. I can understand them asking that question while you're getting set up and then not seeing results, but if they're seeing results—to me, I'd feel like you brought me 10 cases I wouldn't have had. It doesn't matter to me what you're doing, in a sense. Do you find that? Eric: Yeah, but there's always what I call this valley of doubt. Even the best SEO campaign with the best trial firms—because it does help if you're working with a really good law firm that works on the PR side of things, which can have some overlay into SEO. If an attorney is getting mentioned in the newspaper, if an attorney is being mentioned in social media, that does have some trickle-down effects to SEO, but even the most effective SEO campaign takes time, and the more competitive the market, the more time. In a midsize market, you're looking around six months. In a hypercompetitive market like Houston, New York City, Los Angeles, it could be nine months to a year. That's the valley of doubt: “O.K., Eric, we're paying you all this money. We're not seeing the cases yet.” You're not going to see cases for months because it takes time to build up that trust with Google. That's when it's hyper-important for the attorney to see results. “O.K., we're tracking these 25 terms for you. When we started, you were on page 8, then you moved to page 6. Now you're on page 4.” Instead of them hearing the line, “Just trust me. Just give me time,” we want to open up the book and say, “This is what we're doing for you. This is the result of what we're doing for you,” so they can watch and track that. It doesn't mean they're not going to get anything within those first six months, but to the victor go all the spoils when it comes to online marketing. When you Google “personal injury attorney Los Angeles,” those top five firms are getting all the phone calls. The ones that are on page 2 and beyond, none of the phone calls. There's an inflexion point at a certain time where the law firm starts to see and believes. That's when they stop saying, “What's going on, Eric?” That's when they say, “How do we get more?” or “How do we expand?” Sharon: In our experience—and it sounds like yours is similar—everybody says, “Sure, I'll be patient. I understand it takes time,” but the second month when they're putting out money—which, I understand it hurts to take out your wallet and pay somebody when you're not seeing results. It turns to, “Well, what are you doing for me?” It's great to be able to show they're going up the rankings, although I'm sure everybody's fighting to be at the top spot.  Your firm's website says that a law firm's website is the core of a marketing program. I feel that way, but I often don't hear that. Can you tell us more about that philosophy? Eric: One of the things I hear from attorneys all the time is “We don't need SEO because we get lots of referrals.” I believe to this day, even though I'm an online marketer, that the best cases are going to come from referrals, but there is a huge swath of cases that can be gathered from SEO and the website, the hub of their marketing. If you get a hundred referrals, how many of those referrals do you think will Google you? Probably 98 of them will Google you. Number one, they're going to Google you just to find your contact information. Now, if they get to your website and it looks outdated, if they get to your website and they don't see the practice area—let's say you're a mass tort attorney and you're doing IVC filters or talcum powder. If all they see is car crash information, they might go, “Oh, the person who referred me to this firm, they don't even do what I need them to do.” That's where I tell people, “You've got to have really strong messaging on your homepage. Someone needs to get to that homepage and understand what type of law firm you are.” You'll never know how many referrals were directed to you that never contacted you. That's an unknowable.  It's really putting your best foot forward online, creating a beautiful space for people. Believe it or not, even in the legal world, packaging matters. I worked for a technical company once that provided energy storage for all types of different products. One of them was to a company, Mattel, who made toys. Mattel engineers told us that 50 percent of the cost of the toy goes into the packaging, because what's important is when that child or mother is walking down the aisle, what's going to grab attention? It's the exact same thing for attorneys. When somebody gets to your website, they are making a snap judgment about what type of lawyer you are. Are you quality? Are you experienced? What's your personality? Are you the lawyer in blue jeans or are you suited and booted? That's going to resonate with different audiences, but I always tell attorneys to go with who you are. If you're the lawyer in blue jeans, that's the image you should project because that's who you are. Sharon: I want to emphasize that this pertains to—I know you tend to work with personal injury, employment liability and maybe plaintiff, but what you're saying applies to all law firm marketing. All marketing in general, but all law firm marketing. Eric: Yeah, that's a good point. We don't work with a lot of B2B attorneys because if you're a $100 million company, you know 20 attorneys already. But that first impression is still important. If you want to have a client that's going to spend a half a million dollars with you and your website looks like your son-in-law put it together, that's not going to work. You need to project this good image. I used to make this comparison with attorneys: say you've got $80,000 worth of furniture in your lobby, but your website is $1,500 and it's dated by 12 years. You would never want that type of image in your office. You would never have somebody come in and sit on a crate and have a stool as a coffee table. That image needs to be projected online. More and more today, I see law firms doing that. Sharon: That's a really good point. It's a good comparison. Think about all the times you walk into a beautiful lobby, but then there's so much resistance: “What do you mean it's going to cost me $5,000 to redo this or that?” That's a very good point about how you want the website to reflect the polish of your lobby Eric: It's your digital office, and way, way more people are going to see your digital office than your actual office, especially these days. Sharon: Yes, absolutely. Maybe not business to business, but very few people go to an office today to go visit their lawyer. Maybe they do it the first time and that's it. Eric: Right. Sharon: I'm sure that a lot of law firms you talk with, whether you meet somebody at a networking event or however they got to you—I'm thinking about networking events where lawyers will say, “Oh, we have it all sewn up. We have an SEO person and we do billboards. We don't need you. What could you tell me?” What do you say to that? Do you say, “O.K., fine. Here's my card”? Eric: We have the “if it's not broke, don't fix it” mentality. Do no harm. Most people I run into, there's some help they could use. It could be better messaging on their website; it could be more efficiencies in their processes. The luxury that attorneys have is their product is highly profitable. For the most part, it's low overhead. Compare an attorney's office to a restaurant. They say the profit of a restaurant is somewhere between six and 11 percent, where an attorney who's working on criminal defense or personal injury or family law, they've got their office overhead and their time. You can afford to be inefficient, but time is running out. Attorneys listening to this know there are trial attorneys and then there are attorneys that market. The attorneys that market are going to gobble up the cases and then they're going to refer them to you, and you're going to do all the work.  What I tell people is there are going to be some ways to squeeze efficiencies out of what you do. Think about just five percent of everything: five percent more leads, five percent more of the calls that convert—that's your intake process— five percent more reviews online. This has a compounding effect on your business. Five percent more cases in an entire year could be the difference between profit and loss, a good year or an amazing year. Attorneys do have this luxury of having a really high-profit-margin business, but if they don't squeeze the efficiencies out of it, they're never going to get the full benefit. Sharon: I can see how that would make one complacent, if you say, “I'm making a lot of money and my profit margin's really high. What do I care about an extra three percent?” I know they do, but I'm saying that you have to be motivated to move when you're in a situation like that. Eric: Right. Sharon: Also on your website, I was intrigued to read about granular web pages. Can you tell us more about them?   Eric: Yeah. This is sometimes a difficult conversation when I'm trying to work with a law firm. I'm going to use an extreme example. Most people know Orange County, California, but Orange County consists of, I don't know, eight or nine different cities. There's Huntington Beach; there's Newport Beach; there's Irvine; there's Santa Ana.  Well, if you're going to create a web presence online, Google is going to try and serve me, the potential client, with the best result possible for that search. If I search Orange County, it's going to look for people who are marketing Orange County. If I search in Santa Ana or Huntington Beach, they're going to provide a completely different search. This granular marketing model is if you want cases in Newport Beach, we want to create a hub within your website that focuses just on Newport Beach. If you want Santa Ana, we want to create a marketing hub. That means all the content, all the references, the office location, is all related to that.  Think about it like a McDonald's. If I type in McDonald's—I'm in San Diego—it's not going to show me the McDonald's home office, wherever that is. It's going to show me the closest McDonald's to me because Google's trying to give me a better search experience. That's the exact same thing lawyers have to do. Let's say I'm talking to an attorney for the first time and there are three cities around him where they want to pull cases from. I tell them, “You have to do a specific marketing granular campaign for each of those cities.” A lot of times there's pushback, like, “Why do I need three different pages on divorce or family law or criminal defense or PI?” It's because you need to provide a better search experience to your potential client. Sharon: I think it's easy to forget when a website is such a herculean task to put together. You think about the digital office, the entry page, but you forget that people may not land on that page based on what they're searching for. They have to have the whole story on each page. Eric: Right. Most people will only visit two or three pages at most. You've got to be able to tell your story and hit your key selling points on almost every page. Sharon: I know this is not on the questions I sent you in advance, but tell us about the importance of the lawyer's biography and what your recommendations are. I don't like to put a long list of “they specialize in these 40 things,” because how do you specialize in 40 things? What are your recommendations for a lawyer's bio on a website? Eric: The general consumer basically has a mental checklist they're going through. I'm not teaching anybody anything new here. They want to see experience, but they also want to see specific experience. If I was hurt at work, they want to look at your case results and say, “Oh yes, they've done some worker's compensation or a slip and fall case or they've handled an aviation case before.” It's not just experience—and years count. If you've got five years and all your competitors have 25 years, that's going to affect you, but they want to see that specific experience.  The other thing they're looking for is some indication of trust. Some of those might be a 10.0 Avvo rating. Most people don't know what a Martindale AV rating is—I didn't until I started working with lawyers—but have that on there and explain it. It's not like they're going to go in and read what a Super Lawyer is or what an AV rating means, but they're doing this mental checklist. I would not overwhelm people. If your website covers too much, it's called clutter. This is way back from the days of newspaper print. White space is very powerful. Make sure you have your logos from FindLaw and Avvo and all those places on there, but don't slam everything in there. You're not earning more points; you're distracting, and that could be turning some people off. Sharon: Maybe your technique has changed, but I always envision when you come into a law firm and they say, “Oh, we're doing all this stuff,” and they are already doing it, but you peak behind the curtains or dig deep and look more at the analytics. How do you start if somebody's doing something already, if they're doing a lot? Eric: The most common thing I see is that an attorney understands what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to provide good content. They're supposed to have some nice calls to action. To use another analogy, it's like they've got this V8 engine, but all the linkage to the wheels is weak and it's not providing any power to the wheels. Let's say you're creating two blogs a week, you've got a granular page on every one of your practice areas, but the technical parts of your website are faulty. Google has what's now called Core Web Vitals, which is a new part of their algorithm, and what they call User Experience or UX. What that means is they're looking at how can I interact with their website? How quickly does that website load, specifically on a mobile phone, because over 80 percent of all searches are now mobile. Let's say you've got this beautiful page and all this content, but it takes eight seconds to load. I'm not going to wait eight seconds; I'm going to hit back and I'm going to go to the next result. That's the simplest technical thing I can point out, because everybody's had that experience before where the site won't load.  There are so many different technical things, like how easy the website is to navigate. Another good one that seems apparent after people learn about it—let's say I have a car accident page and you have a car accident page. If people spend 25 percent more time on my car accident page than yours, Google is going to see that as a good indicator for a better page, and that's going to help me move up the rankings. So, we'll look for those key indicators. What's keeping them on the page? Is it an FAQ section? Is it a video? Is it an image that's captivating? All these little things add up, and you've got to check all these boxes. When you get towards the top of page one on Google, the competition gets really fierce. You've got to look for all those little efficiencies to get better rankings. Sharon: As you were talking, Eric, I know your market is really plaintiff firms as we talked about, but everything you're talking about in terms of SEO could apply to any defense firm that's doing an SEO program. It's not whether you're a trial lawyer; it's what are the keywords, how are you doing it? At what point do you cross over and say, “Have you considered billboards?” Not for a Latham, but for another firm? Eric: I think traditional advertising is good when used effectively. I also think with technology today, everything can be tracked. You mentioned before about how I would talk to somebody and they'd say, “Oh, we're all good.” Well, I'll say, “Do you know where all your cases are coming from? Let's say you've got a listing on FindLaw. Do you have a tracking number for that?” We put different tracking numbers on a Google My Business account than we do on the website, so I can tell you if somebody found you organically or if they found you through your Google My Business.  If you want to run bus bench ads, have a tracking number. If you want to do TD ads or radio, have specific tracking numbers. A firm that's got a decent marketing budget can do a lot of different things, but you still want to put your dollars towards what's providing you better cases. Let's say that billboards are driving only a couple of phone calls, but every phone call is a great case, and let's say that your Google My Business account is driving a ton of information or a ton of leads, but they're very low-quality. Now, you can really decide where you want to pour your marketing dollars. I never try to convince somebody not to do something; I just try to convince them to track what they're doing so they can use their dollars in the most effective way possible. Sharon: Have you seen law firms be more open to the idea of radio and TV advertising and billboards? It seems like I see a lot more lawyer billboards around.   Eric: Yeah, there are two things. In the mass tort world, TV is still a great medium; the same with radio. Social media and digital are slowly going to start taking that over, though. We're already seeing it today. The problem is the platforms aren't suited to it. For example, you could run a $10,000 a week campaign for mass torts and be very successful. With TV right now, or if you're going to try to do some digital advertising, the benchmark is around $100K. If you don't have that budget and you don't want to be a guinea pig for this new media, I wouldn't suggest that.  But when it comes to billboards—I tell people this all the time now—there's no secret that Morgan and Morgan is one of the largest law firms in the country. What I hear all the time is people in Morgan and Morgan's market feel like they're losing clients to Morgan and Morgan because people know their name. They see their billboards; they see their social media. There is something to be said for branding yourself. Maybe that billboard doesn't get you a bunch of phone calls, but there's recognition when they do a Google search and see your website; they see your Google My Business. “Oh, I remember that attorney. I saw that attorney's billboard. That person must be a high-quality, successful attorney.” That, in our world, is called attribution. How do you attribute where exactly that client came from? Did they first do a Google search, and then see a billboard, and then see a banner ad that was retargeting, and then see you on social media? They contacted you through social media, but they hit all these other buttons along the way. So, the most successful campaigns will be well-rounded. Sharon: You say attribution; I always call it chipping the paint off the walls. You don't want somebody to click past and say, “I've never heard of them.” That's where public relations can come in, in our opinion. You have that credibility of, “Oh yeah, I read about them,” hopefully something positive. You have to warm people up, and they have to see you in different places. Sometimes it concerns me because it seems like—we grew up through traditional marketing and advertising in terms of strategy. Not that people ignore that today, but it seems so easy, especially for millennials, younger people, to skip all the foundation and go right to online, digital, pay-per-click, SEO, and not have a foundation. Do you ever see anything like that, or is that just my concern? Eric: Like you, a lot of this new media is stuff that I—it took me forever to get on Instagram. But as the population gets older, those millennials or 20-year-olds now are going to be potential estate planning clients; they will be potential criminal defense clients; they're going to be potential PI clients. I always ask people, “Where do you think your audience is? JUUL, which was a mass tort; it was the e-cigarette. It was predominantly a younger audience that was using JUUL. That's a perfect campaign for Facebook, Instagram. If we're talking about an estate planning website, where is that? That's going to be an older audience. Where is that older audience going to be? There are probably certain TV shows. There are going to be certain places to place banner ads to capture them. You want to try to hit people where they're at.  The other big thing with legal especially, is it's not always the end person who we need to market to. For personal injury, the person could be in the hospital or, in some cases, deceased. So, you're really looking for family members. The same thing with criminal defense. I work with attorneys that are in college towns where it's typically the parents that are calling on behalf of the student. Every campaign is a little bit different, and you need to tease out who the true audience is that you're trying to reach and then create the campaign around that person. Sharon: So, you're seeing social media grow as a part of this. Do you see it, not taking over, but taking a much larger percentage than it is now? Is it something that people should jump on the bandwagon now, as opposed to waiting until their competitors are spending $100,000 a week, a month? Eric: Social media's good for two things right now. One is branding. You can inexpensively brand, and you can hyper-target. You can target a zip code; you can target your city, your state. The other thing it's good for is awareness campaigns. What I mean by that—I'll use mass tort because that's the easiest to explain—let's say I've taken Zantac my whole life and I also have stomach cancer. I may not have put that together, but if I see an ad saying Zantac causes cancer, I might go, “Wow! I took a lot of Zantac and I have stomach cancer. I'm going to call this attorney.” That's an awareness campaign, just like TV is an awareness medium.  Now, Google and pay-per-click are for people who are actively searching. If I'm going out to buy a new pair of running shoes, I'm going to type in “running shoes near me.” I'm actively looking for that. The same thing will happen if I'm looking for a car accident or a medical malpractice lawyer. I'm going to do those searches. Social media is not a good medium for that, because now you're just throwing a dart at a huge wall and trying to hit somebody maybe in the process of looking for an attorney. It's almost impossible to target somebody who was recently in a car accident because that could be any of us. Social media is still an emerging medium for legal, but it is very good when you know your exact audience: again, somebody who took Zantac, or now we've got wildfires again. We know where the wildfires are. We know exactly the geography where people are affected, and that's a good medium for a social media campaign. Sharon: SEO, what you're talking about, is effective, but it's also very complex. This is not something you want to try yourself at home because you'd never have time to practice law, but is there a place you would recommend that a law firm or a lawyer start?  Eric: Not to be self-promotional here, but if you visit the Market My Market blog, we give away tons and tons of free information. One of our most trafficked blogs—it gets 100+ visitors a month—is the top 125 directories to list your firm in, and we just give it away. These are things we perform for our clients, but the reason we're in business is because real SEO is a lot of hard work. It is very time intensive. Every I has to be dotted and T has to be crossed, but we give away tons and tons of information.  We tell people, “Hey, here are the best practices. Here's how to do A, B and C.” If the attorney has time to do that on their own while their building up their law firm, great. If you've got more time than clients, I always suggest somebody go in and try to handle their own marketing. You can do a lot with just your time, but at a certain point, if you're trying to get competitive in a competitive market, like Los Angeles in a competitive area like personal injury, you're going to need a team behind you.  We've got over 20 people at our company, and we've got our own in-house content writers because we want to be able to control the quality and the pricing of our content. We don't want that to be outsourced. We've got our own SEO team in-house. We've got our own developers that are trying to squeak efficiency out of the website. But if somebody wants to get tools like Semrush, which is an SEO tool; it's like $40 or $50 a month that will give analytics of your website. Ahrefs.com is another tool you can use. They will basically tell you a lot of the problems you need to fix with your website. You might be able to fix some of those on your own, or you might hire a computer programmer at $100 an hour to do some fixes here and there. There's a lot you can do on your own without a company like ours.  Sharon: If a law firm is contemplating a redo of their website, do they need to build the SEO in from the get-go? I'm not trying to knock anybody else, but an SEO company might come in and say, “We can add it on top of what you have.” How do you suggest somebody go about that? Eric: There are two things, and I'll use the analogy of buying a home. If you've got a home that was built in the 60s and it's got good bones, then you can work with it. If we look at that website or that house and the electricity's gone, it's got lead pipes and there's termite damage, sometimes it's better to flatten that and start anew.  There are only two ways to get Google's attention. One is the onsite. That is how well your website is designed, both technically and in the content on there. Is it original content? Is it informative? Does it answer the questions that people are asking Google? That's one of two really big places to impress Google. So, you've got to take your website seriously, and it's not just aesthetics. Aesthetics are great, but it's your conversion methods on there; it's making things easy to navigate; giving people plenty of opportunity to reach out to you when they want to.  The other thing is the SEO. That's the offsite. That's the high-quality and relevant links you can build into the website. You've got offsite and onsite, and those two things need to be dialed in. If somebody comes to us with a decent website, we'll say, “Hey, we're going to make a couple of minor tweaks. We're going to increase the load speed and we're going to give you better calls to action and then we're done.” Some of them we have to say, “This website is almost offensive. We need to start over. Let's get you something that's more modern.” Again, this is your first impression from people that are contacting you. Sharon: What are the biggest mistakes, the top two or three mistakes, you see law firms make when it comes to their marketing overall or their online marketing? What do you see? Eric: I feel a lot of people try to trick Google as opposed to working with them. Google's very explicit: we want high-quality content. Some people take that as “just throw as much against the wall and see what works.” One of the most competitive terms out there is “car accident lawyer.” Obviously, eight car accident lawyer pages are better than one, right? No. You don't want any pages on your website that compete with each other. So, you might have a car accident lawyer page. That's for people who are searching for “car accident lawyer.” But then you might have pages on “Should I negotiate with my insurance company after a car accident? What are the five steps after a car accident?” These are all car accident terms, but you only have one page that's really focused on that one car accident lawyer search.  The other common mistake I see is people building a beautiful website, uploading lots of amazing photos, having really good content, but when you look at the core web vitals of the website, you find out it takes eight seconds to load; you see their navigation is broken. Sometimes the desktop version is amazing, but the mobile version is un-usable. Again, when I talk about dotting I's and crossing T's, there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of things that need to be looked at in order to make that seamless experience happen. Sharon: Being effective in professional services marketing is educating people. You're showing people, “Hey, I don't want to do that.” This is a science; it's an art.  Eric: It's exactly that. I used to use that term all the time. This is part art, part science, because you've got to have the art. People have to see the packaging. They have to be impressed by it. You don't want to turn them off by that. You also have the science part. You've got to have that technical piece and marry those together. Sharon: That takes so much experience. The art is the experience of knowing, “O.K., this is going to work, or this might not work.” It takes experience, and I know you have a lot of experience. Eric, I want to thank you so much for being here today. We're going to have to have you back again in a year for a completely different conversation. Eric: Absolutely. Thank you, Sharon, I appreciate the opportunity. Sharon: I was so glad to have you, thanks.

About EricEric Dynowski, Managing Partner and Chief Solutions Officer at Deft, has been developing software, designing global infrastructures, and managing large technology installations for over 20 years. His background in complex infrastructure design and integration has helped him reduce customer budgets by millions.Links: Deft: https://www.deft.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: You could build you go ahead and build your own coding and mapping notification system, but it takes time, and it sucks! Alternately, consider Courier, who is sponsoring this episode. They make it easy. You can call a single send API for all of your notifications and channels. You can control the complexity around routing, retries, and deliverability and simplify your notification sequences with automation rules. Visit courier.com today and get started for free. If you wind up talking to them, tell them I sent you and watch them wince—because everyone does when you bring up my name. Thats the glorious part of being me. Once again, you could build your own notification system but why on god's flat earth would you do that? Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Thinkst. This is going to take a minute to explain, so bear with me. I linked against an early version of their tool, canarytokens.org in the very early days of my newsletter, and what it does is relatively simple and straightforward. It winds up embedding credentials, files, that sort of thing in various parts of your environment, wherever you want to; it gives you fake AWS API credentials, for example. And the only thing that these things do is alert you whenever someone attempts to use those things. It's an awesome approach. I've used something similar for years. Check them out. But wait, there's more. They also have an enterprise option that you should be very much aware of canary.tools. You can take a look at this, but what it does is it provides an enterprise approach to drive these things throughout your entire environment. You can get a physical device that hangs out on your network and impersonates whatever you want to. When it gets Nmap scanned, or someone attempts to log into it, or access files on it, you get instant alerts. It's awesome. If you don't do something like this, you're likely to find out that you've gotten breached, the hard way. Take a look at this. It's one of those few things that I look at and say, “Wow, that is an amazing idea. I love it.” That's canarytokens.org and canary.tools. The first one is free. The second one is enterprise-y. Take a look. I'm a big fan of this. More from them in the coming weeks.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. For a while I've been talking about how I started The Duckbill Group as a highly niche, highly focused consultancy aimed at one very expensive problem—the AWS bill—and that's all we do. We don't do implementation; we simply do the thing that it says on the tin. And it turns out that you can get fairly good at the problem like that in not a tremendous amount of time.And today's promoted episode of Screaming in the Cloud. My guest is Eric Dynowski, Chief Solutions Officer and Partner at Deft, which is a consulting company that is almost inverted, in the sense that they do an awful lot of stuff. And we're going to argue about it now. Eric, thank you for taking the time to speak with me today.Eric: Great to be here, Corey. Can't wait to dig in. [laugh].Corey: So, when I started this place back almost five years ago now, I was coming out of an engineering career that I found deeply unsatisfying. I had a bunch of working with computers skill sets, and I wanted to apply them to something that I could use as an independent consultant—because who would ever build a team or a company out of this?—that I could wind up doing repeatedly, so I could, you know, make money, not have a boss, and ideally work less than 80 hours a week. And fixing the AWS bill was the first one I tried; it turned out that, yeah, there is, in fact, an awful lot of expensive business problem hidden in there. And that's what I've been focusing on ever since. I get the distinct impression that your story doesn't quite sound like that one.Eric: Well, it's a little bit like that one, in the sense that I was once an engineer and a technician doing things, and had the crazy idea to go off and start a company that consulted and helped people with their technology needs. And maybe we're a little bit alike in the sense that we also have a very singular focused offering—I'm going to tease you a little bit here, Corey—is that we do one thing: we provide technology solutions for our customers. But probably what you are getting at is, “Well, that's a really broad statement, Eric, what is a technology solution?”Corey: It is. And the reason I did this is because my marketing budget was 50 bucks. So, I wanted something that the Rolodex effect is what I was after, where when someone says at a party to someone else, “Well, I have a problem: my AWS bill.” I want the answer to be, “Hey, I have someone for you to talk to.” You don't generally tend to see that with more broad statements around positioning most of the time.Eric: Sure. Sure.Corey: I also felt like if I was going to be, all right, I'm the best cloud architect advisor ever. Great, now I'm competing against folks like you and the giant consultancies that are in every country. And honestly, those folks have better airport ads than I'm going to be able to put up, at least at the time. Now, I have a platypus for a mascot. So, one wonders whether that would still hold true. You took a very different approach and have done fantastically—Eric: Yeah.Corey: —well with it.Eric: Yeah, I mean, maybe a little bit of history here is helpful. When I started my company, which was Turing Group back in 2013, we did actually focus pretty tightly just on AWS, and that's all we did. We wanted to help customers get in AWS, fix their problems in AWS, scale in AWS, manage their costs, all these sorts of things. And along the way, we had customers coming back to us saying, “We love you guys. You're doing great in [laugh] AWS, but I have other needs too.”And I started saying, “Well, I know a guy over there that does that.” And, “I've got a good friend over here at this company that does it.” And, you know, we're referring back and forth. And kind of parallel to that, one of my business partners who is running a company called Server Central was having the exact inverse problem. And, you know, they were providing managed services within the data center, managed networking capability, things of that nature, you know, helping customers build out an infrastructure to operate at scale, where it's like, “Oh, we need 1000 servers, and we need them really inexpensive, and we have to be able to manage them at scale.”And they were crushing it, doing a great job except his customer start getting back to him saying, “Love what you guys are doing. We're also using AWS, and we want some help with that.” And so, he would pick up the phone and call me and say, “Eric, can you guys help here?” And in some sense, we were competitors. I wanted to move everybody out of the data center into the cloud.And he wanted to move everyone out of the cloud back into the data center or keep them in the data center. And it was like, “Okay, this is weird, but we both have the same problem.” And so we went out to lunch and started this conversation of like, “Well, what if we weren't competitors?” [laugh].Corey: “Maybe there's alignment here.” Yeah. I think Ben Franklin once said that three moves is as good as a fire when it comes to cleaning out old cruft. And migrations are like that. I do want to call out that since I make a frequent practice of saying that multi-cloud as a best practice is foolish, I want to be clear that is in the absence of other constraints.If you're building something new, you probably should pick a provider and go all-in. I don't care which one you do—you might; I don't—but beyond that, at a significant point of scale, when a company says, “All right, we're in one provider—or a data center—and we're going to move to a cloud or other clouds.” Generally, they're correct. They have context that I don't when I'm speaking in the general case. I am not anti-multi-cloud; I am anti-multi-cloud when it is foolish and when it's badly done. Just to set my bias out there and, ideally, avoid getting some letters.Eric: You know, I tend not to disagree with that in the right context as well. When we were doing just AWS only, I think I would have argued that multi-cloud, yeah, there's no place for it. If you're going multi-cloud, you're giving up on all of the greatness that a single public cloud has to offer. You know, and by the greatness, I mean, the proprietary services they offer, and the APIs, and things like SNS and SQS and Route 53, all of those things that you could build into your application and just start using them without having to build all the infrastructure to run it. And so I would agree with you, I think, in that sense.But I wish the world were that simple and I wish the companies that we worked with operated in a nice, clean, unambiguous context. But the more you dig in, I think you realize that when you start dealing with a company, maybe, that has 20,000 employees and offices all across the country, and 25 years of legacy applications—or maybe a vision for the future that just is so massive that it requires a different point of view—and this is really where we engage. And it's interesting that you mentioned about the context, and usually, if a customer approaches us and says, “We want to go multi-cloud,” the first thing we do is put the brakes on and get away from the discussion around multi-cloud and move straight into, “What are you trying to accomplish here?” And navigate that conversation before it turns into—you know, let's not start with the solution type of discussion.Corey: Part of the problem, it seems, that when you start talking to folks about these things, especially in some vendor corners, an awful lot of self-interest that winds up informing the answers that immediately come from it, where it's, “Oh, yeah, you want to go multi-cloud.” And you scratch underneath the surface and the reason is that if you go all-in on one provider, they have nothing left to sell you, in some cases. Other times, it's by a cloud provider themselves pushing multi-cloud strongly because they know that if you go all-in on one provider, it will absolutely not be them. So, the hard part is finding someone who can serve as a trusted advisor. And I mean that in the actual sense of a person, not the crappy AWS service that tells you everything's fine when it isn't. That's ‘Plausible Advisor' at best. Let's be clear here.Eric: Well, come on. If it wasn't for Trusted Advisor, we wouldn't have a market for all the third-party analysis tools [laugh] and people like you to help us manage our costs.Corey: Believe me, if I thought a tool could solve the problem, I would have built it years ago. Tried, turned out it didn't, and well, here we are. You position what you do at Deft as starting from an advisory perspective. You're not pushing a particular product, you're not pushing any particular vendors that I'm aware of, you have a partner list that is not a single vendor, what a concept. So, it's clear that you're doing something that goes one of two ways.Either it is, yeah, we'll take money from anyone who will pay us, or alternately you're approaching it from a thoughtful perspective of trying to figure out what's going on with the customer. Based upon our conversations, I'm going to go ahead and guess it's that one.Eric: It definitely is the latter, Corey. We've certainly had many customers approach us over the years and ask for things that are a bad fit. And a bad fit might be, they're asking for technology experience we don't have. If someone came to us and said, “We want you guys to be Oracle DBAs because you do technology,” our answer is very likely going to be no. Could we learn to be Oracle DBAs? Yeah, we probably could. Do we want to probably not? Maybe?Corey: There are some very qualified Oracle DBAs out in the world, and it's—Eric: There's—Corey: —great.Eric: —there's places for people to specialize. And I think one of our virtues is to know and recognize where we belong and where we don't belong. And the good thing is, not only have we sort of built up our own partner list in terms of technology partners, strategic partners, but we also have our own internal list of referral partners where we know that something's out of our wheelhouse, and I got another company and another team here that I know can crush it and help them out. There's other areas of work that we just don't get into. If you want to outsource your IT and have a company that's going to help you figure out why your printer is not working, definitely not us.You're going to be wasting your money with a firm like us. Or maybe you want to partner in a way that isn't going to take the best advantage of the capabilities that we have, meaning you just want to take advantage of us in a halfway manner, and you want to keep an internal team and the two teams are up against one another and fighting about stuff constantly. We need to have good strong trust between our two companies and our partnerships. And so if we feel like there isn't an opportunity for that, we might walk away from it as well.So, it's not a case of everything that walks in front of us, here's a proposal. [laugh]. We definitely do some opportunity vetting and analysis. We ask a lot of questions upfront about how our customers work, what their internal teams are like, what their expectations of us are, what they want in that relationship. Is it transactional or is it strategic? We're interested in the strategic partnerships with our customers.Corey: I think this is something that is not well understood by a lot of the fly-by-night folks, for lack of a better term. I don't mean to sound disparaging, but the folks who don't seem to understand that long-term reputation is important. I mean, both of our consulting companies, although radically different in focus, have pages on our site where we list reference customers. In fact, there's some overlap between our customers. And as we look at this, you aren't allowed to put a customer logo up if they're going to take umbrage to you doing it, first off. And secondly, you don't want to put a customer logo up if people are going to ask them about their experience with you, and the response is, “Oh, they were crap.” At some point, no, let's not do that.Eric: [laugh]. That's right.Corey: The only way to get there is to deliver on an engagement in such a way that the response is, “That was great. Would you do it again?” “Can I?” And the idea of excitement of delivering an outcome where people who you've worked with become some of your biggest advocates, that's how I always viewed the proper way of building a business.Eric: Yeah. Now, I'd ask you, in terms of when you guys are providing advice to your customers about AWS spend, or someone approaches you, obviously, you're probably first thinking, “Okay, well, how much AWS spend do you have in a month and is this worth my time?” But there's probably another element of evaluation that you must do in terms of is this a good customer for us, and can we do the right thing for them? What are pieces that you guys think about?Corey: Oh, absolutely. As a general rule, we do a lot of AWS contract negotiation. And that is, if you have an AWS offer in front of you for committing to something, come talk to us; it's fun. That's half of our engagements today. The other half are cost optimization projects, and generally speaking, we aren't going to be able to effectively deliver return on investment for much less than about a million bucks a month in spend.So, I do at some point want to explore how to help people who are not already paying a king's ransom to AWS every month, but that is down the road. The next step is a conversation. It's a, “So great, you want to optimize your AWS bill.” And then my favorite is the—I get the quote-unquote, “Dumb question.” “Why? Why do you care? Why is this an actual problem other than it looks like a phone number and your CFO has some questions, what is the actual concern?”Very often, we'll find that it's not that you're spending too much on cloud, in many cases, it's that it's not understood what it's doing. “Okay, the bill is 20% higher this month. Is that new normal? Is that something that's going to inform our planning and we do adjust our expectations for what this is going to cost to run this? Is it just a mistake that someone left up?” The same questions would have arisen if the bill were 20% lower, except somehow it never is.Eric: Right, right. You know what's interesting about that, Corey is, too, also I think that you tend to tease AWS from time to time. And also I think the work you do would not be in Amazon's interest, right? They want customers to spend more money on their infrastructure and their services and their capabilities, and you're helping customers spend less. But what's interesting about that is that we're one of the few managed service partners in the country.And I don't know how much you know about that program, and what it takes to get into that program and to maintain the certification in that program. It's like a three-day audit; there's 500 control items that we have to go through. In fact, it was that program that took our business to the next level. It was that program and its rigor that took what we were doing and actually matured it and turned it into what I would consider a respectable world-class operation. But one of the interesting aspects of that audit is that there's several control items in there that ask us to show Amazon that we are taking steps to manage our customers' costs on AWS and reduce spend. And it's interesting that Amazon is the one pushing that on us and instilling that requirement as we support our customers in Amazon.Corey: It's counterintuitive, but this is one of those areas where there's no one on the other side of this issue. Of course, Amazon wants customers to spend more money with Amazon—I swear the company spends half its time lying awake at night worrying someone who isn't them is making money somewhere, at least that's how it feels some days. But they want that spend to be intelligent. They don't want the narrative to be that the cloud is just as expensive a bunch of nonsense. If there's a bunch of instances that are sitting there idle, they will advise you—if they're on top of the game—to turn them off because that is the goal. They want it to be—Eric: That's how they deliver on their promise. Right.Corey: Well, yeah. Pandemic aside, with most of our customers, what we notice a year after an engagement is that they're in fact spending more than they were when we started. But it's more efficient; it's growth that's tying into this. It becomes a component of cost of goods sold where, “Yeah, we're doing more business, so it costs us more to fulfill that business; we're perfectly happy,” is generally the response to that. And I think that everyone with a vision that extends beyond this quarter's numbers is likely to start to get into that, on some level.Eric: Right.Corey: One thing I do want to ask you is—relevant to what you just said—one thing that we do at The Duckbill Group explicitly is we have no partners, full stop. And the reason behind that is because with what we're doing around billing, and money, and contract negotiation, and the rest, as soon as we have a partner, it suddenly gives rise to a bunch of real or perceived conflicts of interest. And in this particular niche, it makes an awful lot of sense not to do that. Now, if you're in any other arena, where you're in—“Oh, you're in security, for example. Oh, we have no partners with any vendors,” the answer question becomes, “Well, what's wrong with you? What, there's no one willing to trust you? Do you think somehow you're better than all these other people?” It's the wrong answer. So, my question for you is, how do you evaluate whether you should partner with a particular company or not?Eric: Sure. Great question. Deft's reason for existence—when we think about ourselves, we reframe it as our purpose—is to deliver on the promise of technology. And if you unpack that statement a little bit is like, “Well, what the heck is the promise of technology? What does that even mean?”And what we get down to is that technology itself doesn't make any kind of promises. That router you just bought, it doesn't promise really anything; that EC2 instance you just booted in AWS doesn't really ultimately, at the end of the day, promise anything. It's incapable of making promises, but people are. And what we promise is that we can wrangle that technology, we can configure it, we can set it up in a particular kind of way, we can bring in the right components into the solution, and deliver on a promise of, “Yes, you can scale to 100 million users,” or, “Yes, you can reduce latency and improve the customer experience for your customers.” It's all about the people, and that's what we have the most of.And that's the best thing that we have in our house.s we have an inventory of highly qualified, talented, empathetic, compassionate, excited people. So, when we start thinking about our partners and who we want to partner with, what we take into consideration is what technology, tools, and capabilities do our people need to have in their toolbox, such that when we start working with our customers crafting that promise and that solution, we've got the right things at hand and at the right time. And then the second piece of it is, does the partner align well with us in terms of our vision? And in some sense, keeping us relatively technology-neutral, in the same sense that you're trying to stay neutral from that billing perspective and making sure that you're looking out and advocating for your customers first.So, when we're thinking about our partners as well, it's not that, oh, well, we want to build our whole business on top of AWS, or Azure, or in our data center. And those are the on—you know, we try to remove dogma from the picture in that sense, and try to probably be dogmatic mostly about the customer and what it is that they're trying to achieve, and being honest with them. So, it's more of a, “Hey, let's scan the horizon. Let's listen to our customers, let's understand what problems they're trying to solve, what challenges they have today. Let's evaluate the technology options on the table across the world.” Our partner might be [unintelligible 00:18:36], it might be VM, or it might be Amazon, it might be a small little company somewhere that does a niche service. But our job is to come together with all of those things and present a cohesive solution.Corey: And it's clearly working. You were the Turing Group and you wound up partnering with—you said your business partner—who was over at Server Central, which I'm just guessing from the name and assuming I hadn't paid attention to the industry for a while, sounds like it might not be fully cloud-focused, on some level, given the name. What did they do? And why was merging the right answer?Eric: Yeah. I mean, it's funny that you bring that up. Server Central. Wow, a server; who's talking about servers anymore, right? It's containers and virtualization and—Corey: But they've got to run somewhere.Eric: That's right. Serverless applications. Like, hmm, is this the right name? And I think it speaks to the 20-year heritage that Server Central has had and how they built their business. And they do and did, and we do have a cloud focus that's not related to the public cloud.We have a significant number of customers that operate on private clouds that we've built for them and manage for them, for various reasons. Some are legit and some maybe not so legit and mostly about how they feel about something. And some of them are technically driven. And after we brought the companies together, we realized that hey, you know what, we have a lot of brand equity and history and Server Central and we have to respect that. Turing Group had its own set of brand equity in the market that we had established and promoted a certain kind of ideology and thinking.And so for a short period of time, we were a little bit unsure of how are we going to bring this together in any kind of cohesive fashion? And it actually went out into the world for about a year as Server Central Turing Group. And I think my tongue twisted as I said it, [laugh]. It's a lot of words and it mostly just confuses people and makes them scratch their head. And so we went off on a journey to figure out what our reimagined new company is going to look like with all the combined services and capabilities that we have.And that's how we arrived at Deft and the idea that's how we want to engage with our customers; that's what we want our solutions to be like; that's what we want the experience in working with us to be. And we want to remove the friction and anxiety that technology can bring. It reminds me of when I was starting my first company. I spent a lot of time sort of navel-gazing, saying, “What do I like about this, and why am I doing this?” And went back to my early days as an engineer, and at the core of it was a really simple idea and it was the idea that when I helped somebody with a technology problem, they were elated. They thought it was magic. They thought it was black magic.They didn't understand how I took this goofy, strange, cryptic thing and made it do what they wanted, and I did it quickly and I did it deftly. And there was joy and they were happy and I loved that; I loved that response. I loved knowing that I helped fix this mysterious problem for somebody that just didn't even know where to begin. And I did it time and time again and it helped me grow my career. And when we started the first company, it was sort of like, I want to continue that feeling.I want to create that feeling for our customers where they feel like maybe they're stuck with some crazy complex technology problem, and because I happen to have the innate skill for understanding these things and figuring these things out and I have a team that can do it, we can create that same feeling for our customers. And we want to continue doing that today.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense. Corey: I do want to point out that, at least in my mind, there's always a little bit of, I guess, we call it technical elitism, on some level, where, “Oh, someone is working through a partner. They must be a company that's stuck in the past.” But a glance at companies that you're working with, make it very clear that's not the case. I mean, Ars Technica, New Relic, Wildbit. You've got some companies that are very forward-looking, and by no definition are these companies that don't understand cloud or understand how the internet works. It's something that I think is not fully understood among a subset of the industry that, in many cases, having a third-party partner, in many cases winds up helping you go faster, further.Eric: Yeah. It might be cliche to say—oftentimes, in cliches, there's a little bit of truth—which is, focus on what you're good at, and focus on what you're best at, and focus on your core products. And with a lot of these technology companies where you might read on the surface that, “Oh, yeah, they're a smart bunch over there. Why do they need a partner?” Technology is complicated. The stack is deep.Whether you're talking about deployment pipelines, or should I use a fiber connection on this or should I use copper? Or should we have jumbo frames enabled? Or should we be using API Gateway and Lambda functions for this? I just listed a broad range of technologies and things that solve different problems. And these customers have their own products that they have to put out into the world; those products need to be meaningful and thoughtful and aligned with their customers.And because that technology stack is complex and deep, it creates an opportunity for companies like ours—for partners—to step in, and grab a piece of that complexity, and manage it, and handle it, and help a customer with it to create the space for them to create the most excellent product. And so even though they are technology companies because you're managing this big wrangling layered technologies, abstractions, and—well, even when we talk about containerization, right, and running a small application, there's seven layers before you get to the CPU. [laugh]. And within that seven layers, there's I don't know how many lines of code, and there's how many hidden assumptions and configuration files, and you name it. And there's areas of that entire stack that we're really good at and customers derive value from that.Corey: One area that you've been relatively active within is the hybrid universe. My talking point on that has generally looked a lot like the snarky take of, “Well, you have a company in a data center today, and they're going to go all-in on the cloud. And it turns out halfway through that it's hard to move some workloads. There is no AWS/400 and they have a mainframe.” So, what are they going to do? They give up halfway, plant a flag, declare victory, and now we're hybrid as a best practice. That is not entirely accurate, but there's an element of accuracy in some cases to it.Eric: Yeah.Corey: But I don't get the sense that's how you see it. I'm left with a strong impression that it's a very intentional choice for some of your customers, that in some cases, workloads that are live in data centers, were at one point living in a cloud provider. Talk to me about that.Eric: Yeah, I like to think of it not as, like, a binary situation. And something that exists on degrees, and often times has a lot to do with the lifecycle of a product or company and the scale of a company. And we touched on this earlier in our conversation, which is that if someone approached us—maybe a startup or a smaller company—trying to migrate off of half-dozen servers and move into the public cloud, and they approached us and said, “Yeah, we need to be hybrid for this thing,” I would probably question that and I would question it really hard, and say, “Really, what are you going after here? You're going to give up a lot if you choose to go hybrid, and you won't really take advantage of some of the amazing opportunities that a full-on single cloud solution has to offer.” On the flip side, we've seen companies that started like that, were a hundred percent in public cloud on a single provider, everything's working fine.There was no issues whatsoever, except the bill, or maybe a fear of what the bill could be. And this is something that happens at scale. There's just a point where the public cloud just doesn't make sense anymore, even despite those benefits. And for the bottom line and in terms of the margins and your cost of revenue, giving up some of those additional benefits that allow you to grow and scale is worth it. And if you look at the technology landscape, there's a reason Facebook's not in AWS. [laugh].There's a reason a lot of these larger technology companies where we have hundreds of millions of users or bazillions of petabytes of data, that move out and get out of there. I mean, look at Dropbox right? [laugh]. Is Dropbox storing all their data in the public cloud? Not really, and they are a public cloud in a sense on their own, right?Corey: Yeah, they did just launch a 34-petabyte data warehouse for analytics on AWS, and they've made a bunch of big—Eric: Yeah, yeah. I mean—Corey: —deals out of that, but the core storage workload, yeah, that does not economically make sense, given their access patterns and how they have built that offering. So yeah, that is a very well understood, very specific, very niche workload. Yeah, that does not belong in AWS.Eric: We've even gone as far as launching our own multi-petabyte managed object storage solution, it's totally S3 compatible. It works identically to the way S3 works, but we have customers that actually can do better on our platform, either because we can provide lower latency, we can provide custom contracts that aren't just purely pay as you go; there's all kinds of different options that we can give our customers that are more custom and tailored to their needs that you're going to get from, “Here's your API keys have fun.” [laugh]. And so there's still a market for that stuff and there's still a need for that stuff.Corey: There really is.Eric: So, the answer is it depends, Corey. [laugh].Corey: It seems to be the answer to any nuanced question. So, if people want to learn more about what you're doing at Deft, and potentially whether it might help them with some of the challenges they're facing, where can they find you?Eric: Easy. deft.com, D-E-F-T dot com. Great, short four-letter domain name that you wouldn't believe what we had to go through to get. [laugh].Corey: I can only imagine. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.Eric: You're welcome, Corey.Corey: Eric Dynowski, Chief Solutions Officer and Partner at Deft. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a comment telling me that no, customers should in fact go all-in on your third-rate cloud.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Ask and you shall receive! We did a survey of our audience a few months back, and the number one requested topic was influencer marketing. And for good reason! Influencer marketing has infiltrated every industry and has the ability to drive large ROI if done correctly. But many new or smaller brands are wondering if they can take part in this marketing channel. And the answer is yes! Eric Lam, is the co-founder of AspireIQ, and he is here to explain how the industry has become democratized and any brand can take part in it, as long as they go about it the right way.On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he gets into all of that and more, including why he bet big on the idea of influencers when it was still a radical idea used mostly by large companies with large celebrities. Today, Eric says that there are certain mistakes that many companies are making when it comes to working with influencers, and he details exactly how you should go about measuring the ROI from your influencer strategy. Plus, Eric explains why he thinks platforms like TikTok are undervalued and he predicts the future of how the world of influencer marketing will grow. Main Takeaways:The ROI of the Storm: Understanding the attribution funnel of influencer marketing is a key metric to determine the ROI of your efforts. But what if there are other aspects of the partnership that should be considered, that many brands are missing?Can I See Your Manager?: One of the biggest challenges of influencer marketing is managing the various influencers you work with and the logistics of tracking and shipping the products your influencers are promoting. Building a platform and communication structure that solves that problem is what sets influencer community management companies apart.Democracy Now: Part of what social media has done is democratize content creation. Previously, brands and those with money were in control of what content was created, when, and who could see it. Now, individuals have the same capabilities in the palms of their hands, which not only leads to better content, but opens the door to revenue streams and opportunities for regular people to become influencers.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome to the Up Next In Commerce Podcast, I'm your host, Stephanie Postles. Co-Founder at mission.org. Today, we're talking all things influencers, but the co-founder of AspireIQ, Eric Lam. Eric, nice to meet you.Eric:Great to meet you as well. Thanks for having me.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm excited to have you on so no pressure, but we did a survey of our audience, and the number one thing that everyone wanted to hear about was influencers. Early, like we got dozens of responses of [crosstalk 00:00:32].Eric:Love to hear it.Stephanie:Yeah. This is the perfect interview.Eric:Fantastic. Well, that's really helpful for me to hear, especially for my team work in sales.Stephanie:There you go. Tell me a little bit about what is AspireIQ.Eric:We're a platform for brands to build and engage communities of influential people from traditional social media influencers to top customers and brand fans to experts and more. We actually started back in 2013. Even though it's mainstream now, back then, influencer marketing was a pretty new concept. Frankly, the idea of businesses using Instagram back then in a meaningful way was pretty rare. Of course, now 93% of brands and kind of based on your survey, it sounds like that's increasing, are using influencer marketing as a core part of their digital and social media strategies, and we're lucky to be partnered with over 300 brands on the platform from some of the biggest names like Samsung to leading [inaudible] brands like Glossier and Purple Mattress.Stephanie:Amazing. Tell me a little bit, how is the platform design? If I'm a new customer, what would I experience when I enter a platform and what do I get out of it?Eric:Yeah. Even back in the day, I think pretty much from the beginning, some of the biggest problems we've tried to solve in influencer marketing have come down to three parts, finding the right influencers to work with in terms of creating content and promoting your brand, to managing the complex workflow between your brand and potentially hundreds of influencers in your community, to analyzing the impact of these influencer communities on your marketing goals. I think that where we've really made our bread and butter is that second one, the building workflow. That's because if any of your listeners have built influencer marketing programs, and actually in our early days, probably our first two years, we didn't have our own software, so we experienced this ourselves when we were running influencer campaigns for our clients.Eric:The real work that goes into this is all the communication and the cumbersome project management, the data organization, the contracts, the product shipping, the payments, and just keeping track of all this stuff in one place, especially if you're working with more than, say 10 influencers at a given time, like that's where the real work is. That's where we really focused on building a platform that can provide meaningful scale to clients building this in a sophisticated way. I think at this point, we've got a range of sophistication levels from fortune 500 companies who have seven different teams working across different countries with outside agencies and the corporate office, to some of the biggest DTC brands in the world who have kind of built their secret sauce in influencer marketing, and almost need to design this customized system within our platform for how to do influencer marketing. So, it's come a long way in terms of the sophistication level that a lot of our clients have had.Stephanie:That's awesome. Since 2013, what kind of shifts in the market have you seen? Because when I think about influencers, especially back in the day, it's like, if you don't have a Kardashian, you don't have an influencer. Now it seems like way more about like micro influencers who have a trusted audience and people actually buy what they want. What kind of things have you seen like shifts in the market?Eric:Yeah, it's evolved in a lot of different, really interesting ways. You're exactly right. I think in the early days, well, frankly in the really early days, when we first started, almost no one was doing influencer marketing, which was obviously tough for our business because we were trying to go to every brand and convince them to spend even like a hundred bucks on an influencer.Stephanie:They're like, no, thanks. Out of budget.Eric:Yeah. I think that was already like pulling teeth. I think, back then, I think the only brands doing this were probably these emerging ecommerce brands where ... they can't compete on traditional advertising, so Instagram had become this place where they discovered already consumers were coming there to learn about what to buy, what to do, where to go. That was true, even though back then Instagram wasn't this kind of commercialized or sponsor place the way it is today. But even in our early days, what kept us going is that we talked to so many ecommerce brands and consistently what we heard was the biggest channel that they were focusing on was social media and specifically influencer marketing.Eric:Then I think, yeah, after a few years, maybe like 2015 and 2016, the industry kind of evolve to what you were talking about, where everybody was trying to work with Kardashians. It was all about working with the biggest fashion bloggers, the biggest celebrities. The bigger, the better. And you're thinking about these vanity metrics, like how many followers someone has, or how many likes they have, regardless of if they saw meaningful returns on investment. Those were the early cowboy days of influencer marketing. I think because of a lot of the mainstream brands got involved there, you started to then see an evolution of how a lot of the DTC, a lot of ecommerce brands were starting to think about influencer marketing because they were kind of getting priced out of these big macro celebrities.Eric:So, they started honing in on more specialized micro influencers, like you mentioned, who, they might not have as big of a following, but they were a lot more targeted, a lot more focused in the concept of created, which meant they were a great fit for more personalized experiences, more authentic content in terms of the segments they were trying to reach among their customers. I think the second thing that was really interesting about the way this evolved is that these same ecommerce brands started using influencers for more than just trying to reach their audiences like in an advertising way, and they started looking at them as holistic content creators, because when you think about what an influencer is, they're kind of like this studio photographer model all wrapped into one person, whose literal job it is to make engaging content for this generation.Eric:These brands started re-purposing a lot of their content and using it in all their different channels, from paid advertising, to ecommerce website, to email marketing and more because content became this King of everything they wanted to do across digital. Today, I think that's kind of even more the case where you're looking at even more long tail influencers, and even people that aren't considered traditional social media influencers, but are really important to the brands and their strategies from marketing perspective. Brands might be building programs where they're combining influencers, but they're also combining those with top customers, power users, experts, working professionals who do customer referrals, whichever groups of people who have the greatest word of mouth impact on the customers and trying to win over, regardless of if they have a social media following or not. I think it's a really exciting phase of influencer marketing we're heading into, where it really includes, even democratize, where brands are kind of looking for these authentic voices, no matter where they come from.Stephanie:Yep. I love that. Yeah, I was just going to say, it feels like now there's so much more opportunity for anyone to have an influencer if you find the right person, whereas before, not so much. But if you're thinking about finding an influencer in your space or finding someone to partner with or using your platform to find some, what kind of metrics would you look at to make sure they're a good fit? What should a brand be looking for to be like, "ah, this is my perfect person?"Eric:Yeah. I think a lot of it comes down to what the goals of this influencer program is. But I think, at the end of the day, a lot of that comes down to subjective type of qualities. Obviously, you can see if they have a big following, you can see if they have really high engagement rates, but at the end of the day, you want to look at, what are people talking about in their comment section? What's the type of narrative they're kind of build with their audience? And does that really resonate with the type of nuanced audience segment that you're trying to build with your audiences? Because that tells you a lot about how they're going to co-create this narrative with you.Eric:That's really what we tell people when we give them advice is, you should really be building relationships with these influencers and treat them as a part of your community rather than looking at it as a transaction. I think that one of the biggest mistakes I see a lot is that, people will look at influencer marketing almost as like buying ad space, and it's really not like buying ad space because content creators are people.Stephanie:Yeah, these are people.Eric:Yeah, these are people who have these like nuanced feelings about the content they make, what they feel comfortable with, what's authentic to them. This is like their livelihood. Communicating with that level of empathy is really important, and if you can find people that really match your brand values and are going to be true advocates for you, that really translates into the authenticity, both from what they're saying, but also the kind of content they make because influencer marketing is pretty mature now and audiences can smell inauthenticity from a mile away. So, it matters a lot to find people that really believe in your brand.Stephanie:How do you go about making sure that a relationship is built on your platform and that someone's not just going through and being like, "Okay, bye. I want this." How do you develop or encourage a relationship to be built before they start working together?Eric:Yeah, I think a lot of times, frankly, sometimes it starts not necessarily with a kind of a official collaboration or with an official contract or anything like that. A lot of brands, what they do is they'll do what's called product seeding, and they'll send these gift bags out to influencers or micro influencers. A lot of people try out the products. If they like the products, they'll have them give feedback, they'll invite them to some events, they'll have them be part of some community activities before they really kind of like level them up into true ambassadors for the brand that have these more formalized contracts and agreements and payment structures and things like that. I think, obviously not all of that is necessary, but it kind of creates this much more organic experience, where ambassadors almost like come to you or are built with you, rather than just saying to every person, hey, we've got this $10,000 campaign and here you go, who wants the money? Kind of going based on much more of a transactional experience.Eric:That's one way to go. I think other ways to go are influencers who can come to you and are creating a more of an inbound experience. What we see a lot is brands setting up kind of these programs and looking for new ambassadors and new influencers to the program. A lot of times those might be smaller, but getting people to kind of sign up when they're small, when they have smaller followings is a great way to almost like build this farm system of up and coming influencers that are working with you in their early days so that when they become really big and famous. Obviously they've been kind of long-term supporters, long-term advocates of your brand for quite a while.Stephanie:Yep. That's great. Yeah, I think I've mentioned a few times in different episodes that I was ... I forget who I was listening to, where they're discussing influencers and how to pick them, but they said you should zero in on the comments and how their followers are actually engaging, because if they're engaging in one way where it's just like, oh, that's pretty, I like that shirt or something, that might not actually be an influential person you should work with versus someone who's saying, "Where can I buy that shirt right now?" If you see a lot of that in the comments, even if they're small, like they have people waiting to buy whatever they wear. I thought that was always a good reminder.Eric:Yeah, totally. I think that a lot of times, that that comes from some of these smaller influencers, because they're so focused on the type of content they make and their audiences really trust them with that messaging. I think a lot of influencers just understand that when they take these sponsorship deals, they're doing it in a way where they really need to make sure it looks, and it is the fact that they really care about this brand. They believe in the values, they believe in the product. I think audiences are really attuned to that, and I think they can pick up on that.Stephanie:Yep. I agree. In previous episodes, we've had a lot of guests tell us that it's been really hard to accurately measure the ROI of an influencer campaign. A couple of people have tried it or quite a few of them have tried it, but they just didn't know if they got the results or they didn't know how long until I see results. What do you advise around, how do you make sure to measure things in a way that you can see an ROI or not, and when should they expect to see some kind of success?Eric:Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, it is actually challenging. I think it's because, the reason is because I think influencer marketing sits at this unique intersection of brand and performance marketing where it's a little bit of both. I think if you're looking at as only one or only the other one, you're almost like undervaluing what you have in your influencer program. We actually have this internal marketing strategy team that works with all of our clients, and their job is basically to design this type of thing. Like, how are you going to measure the overall ROI of your program? Because it's so unique to every client. In terms of brand awareness, obviously that stuff is relatively straight forward. Like, how many views am I getting? How many video minutes are watched? How much engagement there are? What's the audience demographics that I'm trying to reach?Eric:Obviously this is an ecommerce podcast, so most people are interested in, how am I generating sales? That's where it gets really interesting, because like you said, it's not the easiest thing in the world to build the full attribution funnel for influencer marketing. Why is that? It's because all of this content sits somewhere that isn't pixel. It sits not on your own channel, and not even on your own Facebook. It sits on the influencer's Instagram page or their YouTube, and not all the time there's easy ways to click out of links. What we typically do is we build a combination of indirect and direct metrics to give you a sense of how your program is performing. There's definitely lots of ways to measure direct conversions. There's link tracking, coupon code redemptions, affiliate links, landing page sign-ups.Eric:Typically, those are very good ways of seeing directly attributable sales. Especially if you've built kind of this really great long tail of ambassadors who are all doing, like I said, whether your product seeding them, you're seeding them these gaskets, and you're not necessarily asking for anything, where you're building potentially hundreds or thousands of ambassadors who are ... you might not have a ton of following, but they really believe in the product and they're kind of posting about you. You'll start to see a lot of return in terms of referrals on that program, just based on kind of their channels clicking into those links and go into your website and buying things, something like that. But a lot of the times, when you're talking about influencer posts, because there's not an easy way to click out of this, of the posts, we tend to look at more indirect measures because a lot of times what happens is a consumer sees a post, they see the brand and then they exit to a browser and they go directly to the website.Eric:We say is that, hey, look at the indirect measures like referral sources from social channels, and that includes things like the Instagram shopping and checkout, which Facebook is investing a ton of money into all types of ways of commercializing your social channels. Then of course, there's the value of the content itself, which has been really interesting. Like I said, a lot of ecommerce brands are looking at these influencers as content creation vehicles, and so there's obviously the cost that it would've cost to create, potentially hundreds of purpose-built photos and videos, but what's even more is, what's the value of having 10 times the number of assets to personalize all these digital customer journeys from your paid ads, your ecommerce, your email marketing, and almost always what we see is our performance marketing clients will have an overall increase in their ROAS, but thanks to this kind of ongoing pipeline of constant.Eric:I think the last one that's super interesting thing has been really game changing over the last couple of years is actually using influencer channels themselves as paid ad vehicles. There's actually ... obviously there's easy functionality to boost posts that perform well, but there's actually, for in channels like Instagram, if an influencer has a business account, there's an option to grant advertiser access to a third party so that you can actually run a wide diversity of paid ads using the influencers content, where the ads are coming from the influencers channel themselves. This actually gives marketers almost this infinite number of channels to test on and has been an absolute game changer for brands looking to build more sophisticated paid social strategies. All those things are kind of like in combination, obviously are this complex web of how do you value the ROI of an influencer, but it's because there's this huge diversity of the ways that you could utilize them depending on your marketing strategy.Stephanie:That's great. Yeah. That's a really good summary, especially that last point. I don't think I have heard that, or I was not aware that you could leverage their accounts and kind of post from under their accounts. Yeah, that seems to be interesting.Eric:Yeah, it's little known, but it's become a lot more popularized, I think recently. Obviously you want to make sure that you have a firm agreement with the influencer. This is something that in our platform we kind of wrap up in a bow for you to be able to request, but obviously you're using their content, you're getting the right approvals from them, so they don't have their channel advertising to people or using content that they're not comfortable with. But assuming that they are, it's actually a win-win for both parties, because essentially what's happening is, as a brand, you're kind of leveraging them as a voice for your brand to kind of new audiences. For them, they're reaching new audiences themselves and in a way that can kind of get them more followers and more reach.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. I could see there being a bit of like, making sure that whatever you write is in their voice, or is it like pretty transparent that this is a brand takeover of their account?Eric:I think it's typically a collaboration, and a lot of times what we'll advise is that, definitely having the influencer sign off on all the language and making sure that they're comfortable with what they're saying, because you don't want to get ... definitely don't want to misrepresent what they're saying, and it is in a partnership between brand and creator.Stephanie:Yep. Got it. All right. A little story time. First, we'll start with, what are some of the biggest missteps that you've seen brands experience when they've tried to set up their own influencer partnerships? What are some horror stories that you've heard in the industry? You know I like failure.Eric:Yeah, definitely I think a couple of common things that I see, and again, they kind of relate to this idea that, hey, these influencers are ads basically, and that leads to behaviors, like I said about not building relationships. I talked about that one already, but I think another one is basically taking too risk averse of an approach in the creative process. I won't name specific brands, but I think, especially when you're talking about like the bigger brands in the industry, the Fortune 500 brands, a lot of them struggle with the idea of kind of like merging their influencer strategy with their creative strategy, because they typically have this really rigid process of guidelines and brand safety that they apply usually to kind of $25,000 to $50,000 photo shoots, and they want to apply that same framework to influencers.Eric:And they're like, cool. They have to do this set of 20 guidelines, they have to check all these boxes in terms of what they're going to say, they have to say it in this way, and in this tone. At the end of the day, that just doesn't work because people are smart. Consumers are smart. Consumers know when something is super forced and inauthentic. At the end of the day, the whole point of working with influencers is that you're co-creating a narrative. You're supposed to be harnessing the personality and the creativity that's unique to each person, and by forcing them to kind of fit in this tightly defined box that is so clearly branded, that just leads to poor performing content. It's kind of defeating the purpose of using influencers in the first place. I would say that's the biggest misstep I tend to see, and it is typical among, I would say like the bigger brands in the industry.Stephanie:Got it. I could see brands, especially smaller ones, trying to find, of course, untapped influencers. What industries do you think there are a bunch of influencers that maybe you guys haven't even tapped into, and what's maybe bringing this question about, as I just did a recap episode with one of my coworkers around like the first 50 episodes, and we were talking about shoppable gaming and unreal and how there's influencers in these game worlds and how shopping is going to be in there soon. I was like, oh, it seems like there could be a lot of virtual influencers that maybe aren't tapped, but are there any industries like that where you're like, oh, we're exploring this or we see this being big in the future, but we haven't actually fully gotten it yet?Eric:Yeah. Well, I would say, even though it's been incredibly popularized in the last year or so, I would say TikTok is still wildly undervalued. I think not enough brands understand that TikTok has this enormous breadth and depth of not only audiences, but content creators, because I'm 38 years old and I look at a lot of like Parenting TikTok, I look at a lot of the Home Depot TikTok. It's so different than I think most perceptions are of, oh, it's just funny videos or teenagers dancing and things like that, because there's such a diversity of content and audience within TikTok that I think only a handful of brands are really taking advantage of. That's definitely, I would say a big focus for us going forward, is kind of getting in deep with tech talk and making sure that our brands can be successful there.Eric:I would say more to specifically your question around industries, I would say a lot of industries that we've seen that have kind of more emerging, I would say "influencers," not necessarily traditionally defined influencers, are more like professional fields. For example, one of my friends from business school named Trina Spear, she's founded this company FIGS Scrubs. I think they've had the strategy probably for ... maybe since they were founded, where they've almost created influencers out of nurses and doctors where, when they first started, there were no nurse influencers or doctor influencers or anything like that. But they started partnering with all these people that could just create really great content, and they might just be people in that professional field people that might have 500 followers, but posted really cool content and they would send the product, get them involved, get them bought into the mission and the vision of the brand.Eric:Now a lot of those people, they have tens of thousands of followers because of the partnership they've done with FIGS, and FIGS is an incredibly popular brand among the healthcare industry now, and has a really, really loyal following across ... up and down nurses and doctors and everything else.Stephanie:That's really cool. Yeah, I think we had FIGS on our list. I have to check with Hillary on that, but I think we had them potentially coming on maybe so. Yeah, that's really cool to hear how they do that.Eric:They're great. I look forward to listening to that one.Stephanie:Cool. How do you onboard new influencers, and who are some names of people that I would know? Because even though it's kind of vanity, I'm sure everyone listening is like, well, who are some names that I would know in your platform?Eric:Yeah. Interestingly, we don't really take that kind of approach when it comes to influencers, because a lot of times our influencers are brand-driven. What we try to do is we try to provide a system of record and a platform for our brands to manage all of their influencer programs themselves. This is actually an industry choice we've made, I think back in the founding of the company, where we decided pretty early that we were not going to win based on us having the most influencers or us having access to talent agencies or communities of people, because frankly, we were basically four guys who came from either a gaming company or a hedge fund, and so we were not going to win based on who we knew.Eric:What we decided to do is we said, okay, what we're going to do is we're going to build a platform that has incredible workflow and ability to scale up these influencer programs and have brands build the tools they need to manage them, and those brands will essentially onboard and essentially, almost onboard the influencers onto our platform themselves. It's actually played out pretty well where we now have hundreds of thousands of influencers on the platform. I think in a 95% of cases, those influencers were brought by some brand that we had on our platform who essentially invited those influencers themselves to the AspireIQ platform. This has been a really great way of feeding.Stephanie:Oh, that's smart.Eric:... a marketplace where when ... in [inaudible] teach about like, when you start a marketplace, you have to create standalone value for one of the sides, and that was our [inaudible] standalone value for the brands that they would essentially attract the influencers to the platform because we just didn't have them.Stephanie:Let's talk about the early days a little bit. I saw that you had worked at Pocket Gems, and I think it said you led a very large team who was mostly accountable for like 80 million in annual revenue. I want to hear a bit about your background and what you did at Pocket Gems that maybe helped influence AspireIQ.Eric:Yeah. I started my career in finance actually before business school, which is really disappointing for my dad because my dad was a computer science professor, so I didn't get into technology immediately the way that he wanted. But yeah, after business school, I went to Pocket Gems. Yeah, started as a product manager, built a couple of games there. Pocket Gems, for some background, is a mobile app gaming company. Really, it was an incredible experience because gaming, especially back then, I mean, you think about like, this pre-Zynga IPO and all the kind of the rise of mobile gaming, and everything was extremely data-driven and fast paced. It was a great environment to learn about how to build products that can grow and scale really quickly.Eric:But I think the biggest thing it taught me was essentially how much mobile and social were going to change the world, and pretty much changed the world so much more than I had ever conceptualized, I think, before joining, in almost a similar way with the way the internet changed everything in the late '90s. It's because of the fact that we have this super computer in our pockets that's like a high-definition video camera that makes any of this stuff possible. I think, as we were building games there, as we were building apps, as we were doing user acquisition, I could tell, based on the things that were working and the channels that we were working for, for our own growth, that all this was happening here organically. When you looked at social media, everyone can create this amazing content that's just as relevant and meaningful as what's done in studio, and it's completely democratized, giving a voice to anybody with a mobile phone and social media.Eric:I wanted to work on something following that, that could take advantage or basically capitalize on the fact that the world is essentially changing from what I call companies to people. Because when you open your phone, you look at most content nowadays, chances are it's something that a regular person made. It's not a company. It was kind of obvious, at the time, to a lot of us that were founding the company that people were going to be at the center of how these businesses or brands were built. That's what we were focused on doing. We didn't have it all figured out in terms of what we would do or the product we would build. We started with social media and went from there, but we just knew it was around this idea that brands and building a brand, building a marketing strategy needed to be much more people oriented, and around this idea that mobile and social were going to change the world.Stephanie:When you launched into aspire IQ, what were some maybe hiccups or missteps that you guys made in the beginning when trying to figure out this marketplace and building the platform, anything happened there of note?Eric:Yeah, it was funny because again, it was for people who didn't come from the marketing industry and we're trying to get into ... which I think, when I gave people advice, people would always ask me like, "Hey, are you going to ... should I start this company? I really want to do a startup." A lot of times the advice I give is, "Look, if this is something you have to do, it shouldn't matter what I say, that you're going to do it." I think this was really interesting thing where we all had this intense belief that this was going to be a thing, that this would work, even though none of us had come from the industry. I think, because none of us had come from the industry, that really put us at this disadvantage for, who to talk to. We were really scrapping trying to find our first sales and talk to any ecommerce brands that would listen to us, talk to any brands that would listen to us.Eric:It was such early days that we couldn't even charge any money for the product we made. We built this product in about a year, and we basically had to give it away for free because people just didn't value it. They didn't understand why they should pay a platform for influencer marketing. I think we actually had to create ... is really funny. In our first outreaches to influencers even, we were trying to scrape together these first influencer campaigns where we had to pretend that we were the platform, but actually underneath, it was just the four of us trying to run and match-make with different influencers. But we were saying like ...Stephanie:[crosstalk] service.Eric:Yeah, but we were saying like, oh yeah, there's something really like technological going on under the hood. Don't worry [inaudible] the brands. But it was actually just us trying to run the different influencers saying, "Hey, look, can you please join this campaign?" We had to use the pseudonym actually, because nobody would respond to our emails among influencers. They didn't believe that we were a real company. We had to use pseudonyms of people that sounded more legitimate to make sure these influencers would respond to us.Stephanie:Oh, that's crazy.Eric:In the early days, again, not only were brands not really doing a lot of influencer marketing, but the influencers themselves weren't doing a lot of "influencer marketing" among sponsorship opportunities. This wasn't as much of a business for them, where they're already and set up to take a lot of these inbound requests. In the early days, that matchmaking process, like you said, was quite difficult. Of course, nowadays, it's almost like a machine where everybody ... if you have like 5,000 followers, you might even have a manager at this point. Yeah, in those early days, it was a lot of a lot of talking on the phone to explain who we were and what we were trying to do.Stephanie:Yeah. That's great. I think that also is such an advantage that when you don't come from the industry, it reminds me of like us building up this media company like none of us really knew what we were doing in the early days, but from your perspective, I could see a lot of people thinking about building an influencer company and being like, I need to partner with Hollywood, I need to go to CAA. There's a certain way things are done around here. I think that's actually a huge advantage when you don't really know what you don't know and you just move forward and figure it out, and maybe do it differently.Eric:Yeah. I think that, that definitely helped us, I would say in the later stages of the company, because by the time, like I had said, in 2016, 2017, when this took off as an industry, we were one of the few companies that have built this as a true software platform, because all of this came from technology. So, how are we going to win? We weren't going to win because again, we were connected to the right people. So, we were just heads down, really building as much of the product we could essentially understand based on our own running of these campaigns. When the industry took off, we had assembled this immense product advantage versus a lot of our competitors that were essentially glorified agencies. Back then, I think a lot of companies were effectively ... because you might come from an agency, so you think that an agency is the way to solve this problem, this matchmaking problem.Eric:But what we saw was something much more nuanced, which was, okay after you've solved the matchmaking problem, what are you going to do with these influencers, and how are you going to make this a scalable program that will last the test of time? All those things were built into, essentially how do you create almost like a CRM workflow with analytics and all the different automation that we built into it that would be relevant, frankly, for people that weren't really doing anything back when we first started. We were basically lucky that we survived the first few years with almost like making no money, that we could make it to the maturity of the industry when our product became more relevant.Stephanie:Yeah, that's good. Because some people are a little too far ahead and you guys were ahead, but you ended up making it work, which is awesome.Eric:Yeah, absolutely.Stephanie:Now that we're talking a little bit about the future, I want to head into the future. What do you think the future of influencers looks like maybe in like five to 10 years?Eric:Yeah. I think that, like I said, I think influencer marketing is going to keep diversifying to ... just not people who necessarily have social media following it. I think it's going to be around who is influential for your brand specifically? Again, it could be professional, it could be experts, it could be customers. I think a lot of the brands we talk to that are on the bleeding edge, like a Glossier for example, is the gold standard, I would say, of this, who's one of our favorite partner customers. They figured out, I think first that, it doesn't really matter if you have this massive social following. They've built this community of fans, employees, even healthcare workers, things like that, and regardless of who you are, they do an incredible job of making you feel like a part of the community, probably because the brand started out of this shared love of Emily Weiss's beauty blog.Eric:Regardless if you have a following on social media, they highlight a lot of their community members in their marketing. They give them exclusive first looks so they can get feedback and build buzz around new product launches. They take an active interest in pretty much what all these different communities, how they respond to products, and that shapes a lot of the strategy that Glossier has as a brand. I would say they're one of the first, I would say community led brands. I would say that that's going to be, what I would say is the future of, not just influencer marketing, but building commerce brands in general, because what you see now it is there's such a dependence on third parties for a lot of ecommerce companies on generating leads from places like Facebook ads.Eric:That's almost becoming this increasing tax on the cost of doing business of running ecommerce. When you've built an advantage for a brand like Glossier, where you almost have your own channel of your community that generates all this buzz and brand awareness and referrals that, that becomes this competitive advantage, because you can build growth without relying on third parties doing all of your lead generation. I think that's what I'm really excited about as kind of the future of influencer marketing, but also the future of kind of commerce in the way brands will start to own their own communities and their own channels.Stephanie:Yeah. That's a great answer. I think that's the gold standard that a lot of brands probably want to figure out is like, how do you build that community that you can leverage and not always having to rely on external customer acquisition? But it'd be interesting to dive into their model of like, how do they actually build that up and build that community of fans to then have that network to launch to with their products and whatnot?Stephanie:All right, cool. With a few minutes left, let's dive into the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to throw a question your way and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Eric?Eric:Fantastic. Ready. Stephanie:What's up next on your reading list?Eric:Ooh. I think that one book that I really love and just read is a book by Carrie Melissa Jones called Building Brand Communities. She goes into a lot about how you ... similar to the Glossier example, you really need to co-create an experience of communities with shared values, kind of mutual benefit, how is your community going to interact with you as a brand? I love that book. We actually sent it to I think all of our customers.Stephanie:Oh, nice. I'll have to check that out. That sounds like a good one. What is the best piece of advice you ever received?Eric:Yeah, I think the best advice I ever received was either from like a personal or professional level, are you growing as a person? Are you scaling? Are you developing new skills? I give that advice either to employees at the company or people who are asking you for advice. A lot of it has to do, its just kind of acceleration in any way that makes sense or is meaningful to you.Stephanie:I love that. That is good. What's up next on your Netflix queue. What are you enjoying these days?Eric:Oh, wow. Netflix. I just started watching Killing Eve. I think it's an older show, but that's ...Stephanie:Okay, is it good?Eric:Yeah. I love that show. I don't know if I'm as big of a fan of Sandra Oh, but it's a BBC show, and I love pretty much all BBC shows.Stephanie:Okay. I'll have check that out. I have not even heard of that one. What do you wish you understood better right now? It could be a trend, it could be a piece of tech, anything.Eric:I think the thing I wish I understood better is how Silicon Valley works. What's funny is we've never been kind of the favored child, I would say, of the tech industry here and in terms of raising money and things like that. I think marketing has never been the sexy object, the way crypto and those things were. I think I wish I understood the way VCs thought better.Stephanie:All right, Eric. Well, this has been a really fun interview. Where can people find out more about you and AspireIQ?Eric:Yeah. Definitely you can check out aspireiq.com/upnext. Yeah, we've got some interesting reading there. We've definitely got a case study on Purple Mattress and a bunch of other cool stuff to read.Stephanie:Ooh, nice. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining. We will have to have you back for round two, maybe even in person in the studio in the future.Eric:Hopefully the world works out that way. Thank you so much, Stephanie. It's great to be on. Fun time.

There is an evolutionary process for every business, and Beardbrand is no different. When Eric Bandholz co-founded Beardbrand back in 2012, all he had was a Tumblr blog with a modest amount of followers and an Ecommerce shop selling other people’s beard products. Today, Beardbrand is a seven-figure business with multiple high selling products of its own and an entire catalog of content that customers gobble up with each new release. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Eric tells us how he fortified his brand, and how success in the digital world is all about going beyond offering just a product in a box — it’s about delivering value and the best possible experience to your customers Key Takeaways: Move away from the strict focus on simply selling as much as you can and instead aim to find the ways you can add value to your customers’ lives. That will lead to more loyalty and, in turn, more lifetime sales When you're cash-strapped, you must think of creative ways to grow the business without capital. One way to do that is word-of-mouth — you can't incentivize word-of-mouth. You have to just focus on creating an amazing experience that your customers want to talk about Site speed is more important than other features. Achieving that  means cutting out pop-up ads and other third-party plugins, which data shows often do not provide consistent or meaningful ROI For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles. Today, we have Eric Bandholz on the show, founder of Beardbrand. Eric, welcome. Eric: What is going on, Stephanie? Stephanie: Hey, hey. Thanks for hopping on here. Eric: Yeah. I'm excited for our conversation. It's going to be a lot of fun. Stephanie: Me, too. You are a true brand. You're rocking an awesome beard. Just what I expected when I was hoping to see you on video. I'm like, "He better have an epic beard, or this conversation won't go well." Eric: Well, it was funny because, actually, I shaved it all off in December, the beginning of December, of last year. That was kind of a big deal for us. That was the first time I shaved my beard completely off. Stephanie: Oh, man. Eric: She's like, "[crosstalk 00:00:44] your beard," or something like that. Stephanie: How many customers did you lose when you did that? Eric: Well, I'd like to think that we actually added a lot of customers, because Beardbrand is not about the beard. It's about the man behind the beard. We kind of support a guy's right to grow his beard as much as his right to shave it off. I really wanted to make that point, especially today, with a lot of our competitors challenging people's masculinity by not having facial hair. We want to kind of say facial hair doesn't matter at all. It's just a style. Stephanie: Cool. Eric: We did some YouTube ads on it as well, which was a lot of fun to do. Stephanie: Awesome. I'd love to dive into the background of how you started Beard Brand and the story behind that. Eric: We're in business, I think it's got to be, eight years now we launched. Stephanie: Wow, congrats. Eric: We launched in 2012 after I had grown a beard out for about a year. What happened is, at that time, I was trying to do this graphic design business or design business, and I would go to networking events and everyone would call me Duck Dynasty or ZZ Top or Grizzly Adams. Those are super cool dudes. They've got epic stories as well. As an individual, I don't identify as those kind of guys. I've got the softest hands you could ever imagine. I never touched an axe. I ended up attending this event where I met other dudes like me who are other entrepreneurs and designers and doctors and lawyers and dads. I realized there's this whole community of guys that do not fit the traditional stereotype of a bearded guy. That was the inspiration to kind of call myself an urban beardsman. Stephanie: I like it. Eric: Beardbrand was going to be the community to unite urban beardsmen and give them the tools they needed to feel confident about rocking a beard. To us, the tools don't mean just the grooming products. They mean, videos. They mean blog posts. They mean style inspiration. They mean community. Over the past eight years, we've been rolling all that out. We've gotten an epic blog and a YouTube channel with over a million and a half subscribers. We've got a private community where we connect with people. We've put on conferences for our customers to be able to connect in person. We've really worked hard to support our audiences, support our customers. I've got two business partners. We're completely bootstrapped. We have no debt. We have no outside funding. We've been able to grow to a nice size seven-figure business. Stephanie: That's amazing. Congrats on all those YouTube followers. How do you think about utilizing your content to sell your products? Was that an idea and a strategy from the beginning, or was it more organic, where you started on YouTube, and then you're like, "Well, now, we have all these followers, we should launch a product as well?" Eric: Yeah, if we'll hop in our time machine a little bit more. We launched 2012 as a blog, a Tumblr page, which I don't think anyone's ever heard the word, "Tumblr," five years [crosstalk 00:03:53]. Stephanie: Long time. Eric: We had a Tumblr page. Then, we also had our YouTube channel. This time, it was just me, as kind of a side project. I'll make a couple of posts on the blog. Then, I would just re-blog some things on Tumblr to make it look active. I think I did six videos on YouTube. It's not like, in that first year, we really built this thriving community. I think we had 300 subscribers on YouTube and just a couple of thousand visitors to our blog. It was enough that a reporter from the New York Times saw the blog and kind of quoted me as an expert. Stephanie: That's awesome. Eric: We utilized that opportunity. I convinced two of my friends to go into business with me, and said, "Hey, why don't we turn this blog into an e-commerce store?" We found a product. We started reselling it. We literally launched the website a day before the New York Times article went live- Stephanie: Wow, perfect timing. Eric: [crosstalk] a couple of days. That was kind of the spark to the business to really give us the energy to continue. Then, I had the vision that Beardbrand, the Urban Beardsman, is going to be like how Lululemon is to people for yoga or Vans shoes is to skaters. Beardbrand and the Urban Beardsman was we're going to serve these urban beardsmen. I always visualize that as apparel or accessories or clothes. I really didn't have the industry knowledge to be able to do that, and the margins are so tight on there, and some seasonality that we found grooming products was going to be that product that united the community. Eric: After, I guess, a year or two of failure after failure after failure of trying to get apparel up and accessories up, we finally admitted that we're a grooming company. For us, the content that we've created was more of not to drive sales. The products we have allow us to share our word more. We sell products as a way to kind of expand our voice and to grow our content, not as a way to create content to sell products. I think we're one of the companies that kind of view it a little bit differently. Stephanie: Got it. How do you utilize newsletters and reaching your subscribers once you have them or engaging with buyers or prospective buyers? I think I've read about some newsletter strategy that you have from day one, everyone kind of starts out in the same place to go on the journey with you. Is that still accurate? Eric: Yeah. We utilize Klaviyo to, I think they call it flows, where you have these series of emails that you send out when people join your email list. We've launched that, I think, in 2015. That's been really good. When you think about building a business, as much as you can automate and build systems and processes, then the more you're going to be able to scale your business and the more traction you're going to be able to gain. Eric: This series that we opened up with is really like an education series. I think it's a 5 or 10-part series where we teach them how to care for their beards, teach them how to care for their hair. A lot of guys still don't know how to shampoo and condition your hair. Basics like that where, honestly, they've been doing it wrong, but there's opportunity for them to improve their techniques and, ultimately, get better outcome through their journey. That's been big for us. Then, at the end of the flow, we give them a little thank you product, or free shipping, or something like that for taking the time to invest in themselves. Stephanie: Got it? Are there any best practices you would recommend other e-commerce sites when it comes to utilizing that newsletter or where you're like, "Conversions were high when we did this," or, "They were lower when we did this," or, "That thank you product really does help drive future sales," any insights around that? Eric: Yeah. A couple of things that we've found that work over the years is we have a product that is not available on our navigation. It's kind of a hidden kit that is only available to people who join our newsletter. Stephanie: Interesting. Eric: The retail value of that kit is $50. We give them a pretty aggressive price point to be able to get on board. It's kind of like a tester kit, sample kit, so they get exposure to a lot of our products. We found that that works really well because we can say, "Hey, get this tester kit, try all of our products, use these products as you're learning about the things that we're telling you, then, in two weeks or a month or whenever, when you go through the products and look to re-up them." We found that that works really well at getting people into the ecosystem and trying our products. Stephanie: Very cool. Eric: What other best practices do I have? For us, it's so much about content. I think a lot of people really err towards sales and discounts and buy from us and chest thumping. That's really not our style. I would challenge people out there to think about how you can bring value to your audience's lives. Then, if you bring enough value to their lives, then, kind of the whole Buddhism karma thing, it will come back to you. People will end up buying from you. We kind of have that outlook on the world, that if you do good things, good things will come back to you. Stephanie: Love that. How do you think about your buyer experience and making that personalized and unique to all your customers as they come in? Eric: We've invested a fair amount into our packaging to our products. The unboxing experience is nice. We use nicer primary packaging, which is going to be your bottles and your labels and your caps and all that. Then, we use nicer secondary packaging as well. When they actually get the boxes and they open it, it's pretty nice. In addition to that, we're working with our own 3PL or a third-party logistics, our own fulfillment center. We make sure that we work really closely with them that they wrap it kind of to our specifications. There's a nice little unboxing experience, a little bit of tissue paper, and a Beardbrand sticker. Then, we have what's called a thank you kit. Within this thank you kit, we have a little booklet. The booklet usually changes every quarter. For instance, one quarter, it was a book of reminders, which are kind of my nine reminders that I tell myself in life as I face adversity. Stephanie: That's great. Eric: Daily planning. It's all tied around our core message or our tagline, which is keep on growing. We're trying to, again, bring more value. You buy from us and, not only did you get great products, but we brought you a little more value outside of what the products can do. Hopefully, by delivering this experience, we can grow through word-of-mouth and loyalty and customers who want to stick around, rather than kind of going on to the next hot thing. Stephanie: I was just going to say I could see that adding to that viral experience by giving people those little presents that are really fun to share, then, just engaging with more customers because of that. It's really interesting to hear about. Eric: I'll tell you this. If you're trying to build a bootstrap company, the reality is you've got more time than money. When you're cash-strapped, you've got to think of creative ways to be able to grow the business without capital. One way to do that is word-of-mouth. You can't incentivize word-of-mouth. You have to really just truly focus on such an amazing experience that your customers want to talk about it. When you have that mentality, not only is it healthy for your business, but it's going to be healthy for your growth. It's just kind of a win-win, and the world's a better place because you're bringing that much value to the customers. Stephanie: I completely agree. Are there any success stories or big failures that you've had come from trying to generate that word-of-mouth and getting people to spread the word? Any advice around that? Eric: It's actually not a metric that we really track or keep an eye on. It's just more of a philosophy internally of just being customer first. I think, to a certain degree, you do have to integrate data. We used to include a little sample of products for people. We found that those samples weren't driving any additional sales of those products in a significant way. When you look at that, you're like, "Well, are you actually bringing value to customers if you're giving them something for free that, maybe, they didn't want or they didn't want need? Stephanie: How do you track that, or how did you know that people weren't really using it or that wasn't helping drive sales? Eric: We would send a beard wash, a little sample, a one-ounce container. Then, we would look at if there's any increase in sales of beard wash. Your data is always going to be muddy, especially when you're a company that's our size and really small. We fundamentally can't get the data. You do have to go off of a certain gap. You have to also look at, "Well, every sample is costing us," let's say, it's $1. Every order is going out, five orders is $5,000 a month. Then, if we're not seeing a boost of really $10,000 in sales to justify the cost of that, then the margin and the future order, then, you're not building a sustainable practice. Again, as a bootstrap company, you do have to think about your marketing efforts being sustainable and being able to exist on their own for a long time. Stephanie: How do you think about creating these marketing campaigns, whether it's YouTube videos? How much do you guys put out per day or per week? To me, that feels like it could be not sustainable if you don't have the right team in place, the right video crew. Especially right now, I'm thinking everything with COVID-19. Has it been hard to keep that content going out and recording the videos and launching them on YouTube and everything? Is it still pretty good, because it's a remote team doing that? Eric: It's been a really long, hard journey. To the listeners out there who are hearing our story now, eight years in is like we've had eight years to build these processes and systems and relationships. You're not going to be able to do all the things that we've done on day one. We're still cranking out about six videos a week. We've been able to do that by leveraging multiple personalities, just like you guys have multiple shows. We're kind of the same thing. It's not all on my shoulders, and worrying about me getting burnt out. Eric: We have four different regulars on our smaller channel called the Beardbrand Alliance. Then, we have, probably, maybe 4 to 10 barbers who will hit on to do these kind of barbershops style videos. We've been able to really spread the burden of the YouTube channel. Then, we have an in-house video editor who is constantly video editing. He's a machine. Then, in addition to creating these YouTube videos, we do a fair amount of advertising in the video form as well. We do have video editing handled by our ad person as well, our advertising coordinator. She'll be cranking out content that way as well. Video is great, man. I would highly suggest anyone listening that if you invest in video, you could have a pretty good competitive advantage in the marketplace. Stephanie: I completely agree. Video is where it's at. How do you make sure that your videos and your content is found? A lot of people create some really awesome stuff and then be like, "Now what? I've only had one view on it," or, "I don't know how to get people to view this video, and then take the action that I want afterwards, which is, probably, buying one of the products that I'm highlighting?" Eric: There's two answers to that. One answer is you pay for it. Really expensive, but if the content is truly remarkable, for instance, when I shaved my beard off, we filmed it. We created a 45-second ad on YouTube. To get exposure on YouTube through their advertising system, if the video is engaging, it's extremely cheap. I think we're paying a third of a penny per view. Stephanie: Yeah, that's cheap. Eric: A million impressions was, I don't have the calculator in front of me, what does that look like? Stephanie: Something great. Eric: Yeah. It's astronomically inexpensive. At the same time, you may not be targeting the right people. Now, organically, I think YouTube is going to be the platform to go, because of how they recommend videos. It's a little more evergreen than Facebook. There's certainly opportunity on Facebook and Instagram, but I'm not as strong on how to perform there. It comes down to, in the early days, the reality is no one's going to watch your content. You think that sucks, but the reality is it's awesome. Maybe, you'll have one person or two people or 10 people watch it. Then, you'll get a couple of comments. Well, you'll use those comments to get your content better and better and better. Then, by the time you've built a larger audience, you've kind of figured a lot of these things out, so you're not really damaging your audience. You think what you create is great, but the reality is it's not. Stephanie: I agree. Eric: [crosstalk] will be shared. By creating and by doing, you get the hang of it, you get more natural in front of the camera, or you get more natural on the editing process and telling the story. As you learn, it compounds on itself. If you're thinking about getting into organic video on YouTube, then plan on having, really, 20 or 50 videos that you want to produce before you really even see any kind of traction. I think it took us three years before we got 10,000 subscribers. Then, again, it compounds and you learn and create more content. You create more content faster that's more in line with what people want. Then, all of a sudden, we're able to grow to daily content and getting 10,000 subscribers a month. It takes time and it takes learning. There's a lot of insights in YouTube that you'll need to learn as well. Stephanie: I think it's really good as a reminder to kind of detach yourself from the content, because when you put something out there, it's like, "It's my baby. That was my best one yet." I remember when we were starting our company, the first couple of episodes we did on Mission Daily, Chad and myself, it didn't get any downloads. It's a brand new podcast. No one had heard about it. We didn't know how to grow the podcast at that point. I remember thinking, "That was my best episode yet. I'll never be able to do something that good again." Now, I look back on it. I'm like, "I'm very glad no one was listening to those episodes because they were not good and the audio wasn't great." It's just a really good reminder to put stuff out there more in the learning phase. Then, eventually, you can move into the really trying to find those subscribers and followers, once you get to the point where you're a bit more experienced and you've tried a bunch of things out. I love that. Eric: Yeah. So much of it is just the process, for a podcast, making sure you can line up those guests and you can post it early. That's hard work. It's easy to get the first one done, or maybe, the first couple and queue it up, but to also record and organize and plan is a very big challenge. Those are the things that you'll be solving when your audience is small. Then, as you solve those, that allows you to grow your audience. Stephanie: I agree. When it comes to solving problems when you're small, when you got the visibility from, I think, you said New York Times, and I think I read Shark Tank, when you got that visibility, were you ready? Was your website ready, your product ready, your fulfillment strategy ready? How did that go when you got those bumps in visitors? Eric: New York Times drove about $900 of sales. Stephanie: That's huge, just kidding. Eric: It actually is. I think we had $100 worth of product. It was nine times our inventory. Fortunately, we were able to solve all that. You have a lot of growing pains, I think. This is my first successful business. I had no relationships. We didn't know where to get our wooden boxes made. We always dealt with supply chain issues. Really, the first two years, as we were growing rapidly, it was just always like a fire was being put out. Then, eventually, we moved to quarterly planning, which has helped significantly in managing our inventory. Stephanie: What was the Shark Tank experience like? I haven't talked to anyone who's been on there yet. Eric: Oh, no. I'm your first breaking your show. Stephanie: Yeah, you're my first. Eric: That's virginity. This was 2014, I believe. Yeah, it's got to be 2014. Halloween 2014 is when the episode aired. A lot of things may have changed since that time. I know Shark Tank was really popular at that time. A lot of people were watching it. It's a very stressful process, because during the whole campaign, not only 80% of the people who go through the whole process are going to end up on the show. You could end up investing a lot of energy, a lot of time. You could pay a lot of money to build out this fancy display case. You could fly out there, step away from the operational needs of your business in a time where your business really needs this stuff. Then, do all that and not make it there. Eric: We always knew there is a good chance that we didn't make it there. Subsequently, we didn't put too many resources into Shark Tank. We kept our display stand, I think, we paid $300 to rent some furniture. Then, we put out some products there. It's just me going on show. It wasn't my business partners, so they could kind of focus on building the business and I just kind of focused on the Shark Tank pitch and stuff like that. Then, you get up there and it's stressful, not just because of pitching to the Sharks, which is how they make the show seem, but also knowing that whatever you do is recorded in front of seven million people. If you make a mistake, you're like, "Seven million people want to know about that." Stephanie: It's replayed over and over again, and reruns. Eric: Yeah. And, fortunately for us, I feel like Shark Tank, they did a pretty accurate representation of how I felt the conversation was. They're cutting down 45 minutes to seven minutes. They're trying to craft a story in seven minutes. Then, the hard part is all five of those sharks, they talk to you all at once and you don't know that on the show coming in. They all ask you a question right at the same time. When you see the people pitching and they're looking all over the place, it's just because five people are talking at once and they're just trying to figure out who to talk to. Stephanie: Wow. Sounds very intimidating. I do love Shark Tank, though. I hope to try and find your episode and see if I can watch it. Eric: Yeah, do it. It was a fun experience. It was like how your heart can race and go on through a roller coaster. It was really that. The whole time, it's just like the adrenaline is pumping. I'm not very good with words. I'm kind of dyslexic. I'm just hoping I'm not saying anything too stupid. I think it was a great experience all over. I think what they're doing for entrepreneurs is great, too. Stephanie: I completely agree. In early days, were you completely selling on your website? How much of it was selling direct to consumer versus wholesale, versus, maybe, utilizing Amazon would your sales strategy look with your brand? Eric: We've done a little bit of everything. We started off direct to consumer. We actually started off, as I said, as a simply an e-commerce retailer. Another people's products in the early days, until we're able to develop our own products. As we were able to get traction, we had passively, companies like barber shops and salons and pharmacists who would want to sell our products. We would kind of sell to these smaller retailers. It was never a core focus of us to bring on wholesale retailers. Eric: Then, we would get on the Amazon. This was the early days of Amazon. Hindsight is 2020. We probably missed a fair amount of opportunity on there. We really always focused on selling on Beardbrand.com. Amazon was never more than 10% of our sales. After a couple of years, we ended up pulling off of Amazon completely. You can't get our products on Amazon now. That's been a great decision for us. Then, we also brought in Target as one of our wholesalers. That happened 2018. Today, we're about half the retail and half direct on Amazon, and on any other market. Stephanie: Very cool. How do you think about separating yourself from your competitors? Not that I watched the beard space often. I don't have a beard that I know of, but I have seen a lot of beard oils coming on the market and just things focused around that. How do you separate yourself from the competitors, especially since you're an e-commerce site and you don't have a bunch of retail locations or not in a ton of places? How do you show that value on how it's different from other products? Eric: The reality is, you're always going to have a competition. If you have no competitors, then your competition is ignorance. We've kind of always embraced competitors and knowing that we're going to have competition in the sense that it's going to force us to elevate our game and provide such an amazing experience to our customers, that they'll have no option other than to go with us because we are the best. With that mentality, we've also come to terms with certain things, like we're not going to be the low price product on the marketplace. If that's the game you want, then we're not going to be a good fit for you. Eric: We try to be really clear about the value that we bring and the things that, maybe, we're not great at. There's always going to be trade off. To us, I think we do a great job because we bring all that value to our customers. Like we talked about earlier in the show, the content marketing, the education, the blog articles, the email flows, the YouTube videos, the customer service experience, the unboxing experience, I think, all of those things are what makes Beardbrand a different company and why someone would want to buy from us. If they're just some dude who doesn't really care and they just want whatever's cheap, then Beardbrand probably isn't going to be the best product for them. Stephanie: I like that idea of being upfront with, "Here's what we sell. If you don't want quality, then, maybe, go somewhere else to find something different." Do you market differently based on that? Eric: To be fair, there's other quality products out there as well. I don't think there's quality products out there that also do the education, that also do the packaging, that also do the customer experience. There's so much more to a business than what's in the package or what's in the box? I think a lot of companies get so focused on their product. Anyone can rip off your product. They can exactly copy your product. They can come down to an exact tee. Then, if that's all you're standing on, what do you have there? Then, it becomes a race to the bottom for the price. Eric: When you build a business, you have to think beyond your product. You have to think about, "How can I really bring value to my customers that is beyond the product?" The product alone is not going to do it. Stephanie: Got it. I love that. How do you think about building better business models for other e-commerce companies? I was looking at, I think, on Twitter, you had an experience with West Elm. I guess they had marked down a table. You kind of went through how e-commerce companies need to figure out how to develop better business models. What is your advice around that? Maybe, you can highlight that experience a bit, because I didn't read the whole thread. Eric: Yeah. A little background story. I bought that table, that table I'm actually using for my podcast studio. 25 days later, they put on a sale where I could get the exact same table, but it cost me 75 days, or excuse me, $75 less. As a consumer, that's kind of frustrating, because you kind of feel like an idiot for not waiting out. I would have waited 25 days to save 75 bucks. Personally, I don't think that's a good experience. I recognize they're doing sales, they're doing weekly sales, and some sales are better than others. To me, I feel like, have some kind of policy in place where, within a certain time frame, whatever you feel is appropriate: two weeks, a month, two months, whatever, that you can guarantee the offer that you're giving to them. Eric: It doesn't even have to be a money back guarantee. It could be a store credit guarantee. Then, I think that's going to encourage a lot more confidence in the consumers. Also, consumers will be more likely to buy from them again, because if you have the alternative where you're just like, "I know you screwed; you missed out on this one; you already bought it," then, it's like, "Well, next time, I'm just really going to wait. I'm just going to wait until I know there's an incredible deal," or, "I'm just not going to buy at all because I don't want to feel like I want to be made a fool again." Eric: You run the risk if you're running sales all the time and they're not the exact same sale. Not everyone will feel this, but some people will subconsciously be feeling this. There's quick and easy ways to really just guarantee the experience about it. I don't want to tell people how to run their business and their policy. I'm not mad at them. I'm just kind of calling them out that I think they could do better. Then, to be fair, West Elm reached out to me on Twitter and they offered me store credit. Stephanie: That's nice. Eric: You don't want to have to really fight and argue for that. You just want them to make it right. Stephanie: I think that's a good point, though. Also, that big brands are looking to smaller companies and the individual consumer to kind of learn from. That's a really good point of making the consumer feel good after a purchase and not having buyer's remorse. I've definitely had that experience before of buying something and then seeing a discount afterwards, and then waiting the next time, and then there's no more inventory. Then, I just never go back again. Those little moments definitely matter. Eric: Well, then you think about, the whole West Elm experience for me is, I couldn't do a live chat or email them about it. I had to call them. Then, I called them and I was on hold for 25 minutes. Then, after 25 minutes, they pretty much told me I could ship the thing back and then buy a new one, but shipping would not be reimbursed. Financially, it wasn't going to make sense. It's like, "Okay, this is how you're going to do it." Then, as a small company, you think that these large companies have all the advantages because they can buy in bulk and get better prices. Well, a lot of people don't buy based on products. They buy because they want to be able to reach out to you and talk with real person, not be on hold for 25 minutes. Those are the things that I want you to think about as you build your business, how you can compete with Amazon and how you can compete with West Elm and Walmart and these giant companies out there. Stephanie: I love that. What's one thing that you wish online sellers would start and stop doing? I'm asking you this question because I see you're big in the e-commerce community, always talking and highlighting different e-commerce stores. You've probably seen a lot of best practices that sellers do, and some things are like, "You should just stop. That's not good." Eric: Going back, I don't want to tell anyone how to run their business. There's a lot of ways to build a business. It kind of comes down to who your audience is and what they're okay with. A couple of things that we've always avoided is we don't want to do pop-ups. There's no pop-ups. There's no tricks. There's no immediate discounts. One of the things that is a pet peeve of mine is, "Here's a pop-up. Do you want to save 10% on your next order?" Then, they click x or, "Close out of this if you don't want to save money," something kind of condescending like that; or, with the little spin wheel. I think a lot of these has become a little hokey. Eric: The people selling those software as a service thing always claim that they work. We've actually cut a significant amount of our third party plugins, just because it made our websites so bloated. Stephanie: I was reading about that, how quick were you able to get your website down? I think I saw four seconds. Eric: Oh, my god. We were doing a speed test on our old website. The homepage on the desktop, I think it would have been in the 40 range score. Then, I think the mobile side would have been in the 20 to 25 range, the score [crosstalk 00:34:34]. Then, we essentially rolled out a new website template, a new website theme, killed all the third-party plugins. The new speed is now around 77 for the desktop and around 40 or 45 for the mobile. Stephanie: That's great. Eric: I don't know what that is in actual load times, but in terms of data, according to Google, it's a significant increase. Some of our blog posts would take 10 seconds to load. We really just went and found the stuff. It wasn't just the theme, too. We had some images that we uploaded, which were two megabytes in size, something ridiculous like that. It's just kind of like eight years into having a business and a lot of people putting their hands into the business, it gets a little you lose sight of things. It's always good to circle back every once in a while. Stephanie: I think doing that audit is really important, because like you said, after many years, people are implementing their own things without thinking about the long-term strategy of it and how it might impact things. I think, web chat is one thing where a lot of websites have the digital chat, but that increases the website's load time by a ton. Maybe, people don't even fully utilize it. They would rather call or send an email. It's good to just do that audit, I'd say, at least yearly. Eric: We had one of those live chats. I think it presented some issues because, sometimes, a little pop-up would block information or block the "Add to Cart" button. Stephanie: Oh, man. They're like, "I'm just trying to buy and you're not letting me." Eric: Exactly. It's just like as templates get uploaded or themes get updated, things get reverted. We killed it. We no longer have that JavaScript burden of loading. Those chat bots are fundamentally the things that slow down your page load speed the most, I've seen. We haven't seen any drop in conversion rates or sales. Then, in addition to that, the alternative, what we did is we just moved to a phone number that people can text. I think what we're getting is people who are more serious about needing advice rather than just kind of casual looky-loos who see a little pop-up and they're like, "Oh, yeah, da-da-da-da-da." Stephanie: I that, looky-loos. Eric: That's what my mom calls them. Stephanie: That's good. What metrics are you paying attention to most? You've mentioned conversion rates. Now, we've talked about website speed. Are there a certain set of metrics that you pay the most attention to? Eric: Yeah. I'm like your typical A.D.D. entrepreneur. Being in the details on a daily basis is really hard for me. Everything I do is kind of on an ad hoc basis. When it comes to YouTube, the things that we really look at are our watch time and our click through rate. They're going to be the big indications if a video is going to be successful or not. Then, on our website, really, I'm the top level kind of guy, so I'm looking at revenue. I'm looking at orders. Then, on the ad hoc level, I look at how our blog is converting, then, how our traffic outside of our blog, two of our stores is converting. Then, our page speed has been something that's been a pretty big metric for me, lately. Then, there's so many other more metrics that I should be looking into that I'm fortunate that we have team members who are looking for [crosstalk 00:38:09]- Stephanie: Do that for you. Eric: ... email performance and how those are doing. Stephanie: Is there any themes around either video content that you put out or blog content that you've seen, certain types of videos? Maybe, funny ones convert better or more how-to blog content converts better. Any best practices around releasing content in a strategic way that will actually create a future buyer? Eric: Our strategy is to leverage YouTube's organic growth. To do that, you need to have the viewers want to watch more of your content and stay on YouTube. The strategy isn't really so much of, "Hey, buy this," or, "Be aware of this." It's more of get awareness of the brand. We try to integrate a lot of branding on our videos. We put our taglines on every video, to keep on growing and change the way society views beardsmen. All those call outs in the lower thirds. Then, we try to integrate product placements in our videos as well. It's just bringing awareness to it and not driving people off the YouTube. Eric: Subsequently, when you do that, you're less concerned with any kind of direct sales that you're getting from videos. One great plugin tool that we've used on our Shopify store is called Grapevine. Grapevine allows you to have a simple one-question survey that you put at the end of after they've purchased. We use that to say, "Hey, how did you first hear about us?" We have about 20 different options, from Shark Tank to our YouTube channel to various YouTube personalities. We found that 40% of our customers have first found out about us from YouTube. Eric: Being able to attribute that any particular video, we can kind of segment it a little bit. 18% of it is from our barbershop videos, which was a fair amount. Beyond that, you just kind of have to trust the process. Stephanie: Got it? Do you find influencers in the space? When you're talking about having these barbers do these videos, do you find someone who already has a following? Do you kind of create that following organically through under your brand? Maybe, it's someone that no one would have ever known about, but you just know that they're a great personality to do the video? Eric: A little of both, I would say. One of our most or one of our longest tenured relations, well, we've got a couple of long tenured relationships with influencers, Carlos Costa. We reached out to him back in 2013. He's been with us kind of since then as an influencer for the brand. Then, he's grown to make videos for us. Then, he reached out to Greg Berzinsky, who at that time, I think he had, maybe, 20,000 or 30,000 followers on Instagram. He's a big believer in the brand. Eric: We try to find people who really love your brand, who love the products, who love what we're doing. It's just easier for them to be excited about it. We also try to work with smaller influencers, those who are, maybe, still getting established, or who have a following because they're not influencers. Tobias van Schneider is another one. He's another business owner. He's got other businesses. He's not making money from promoting products. He's more likely to talk about our products and not ask for compensation, which is something that you need as a bootstrap company, to be able to make your dollars go far. Eric: It's been a little bit of that. Then, we have had employees at Beardbrand who are like, "Hey, man. Get on camera. Talk about this. You've got a great beard." They've done that. We've done a little both and have had success and challenges and both processes as well. Stephanie: That's very cool to experiment with all those different types of models. I like the idea of having the employees be the influencer. I know that a lot of companies in Asia are doing this. I haven't seen a lot of companies in the US fully utilizing that model of creating micro-influencers within the company, and then developing their own followings. That's just a nice organic way to do it. Having someone who is an actual expert on the product without being too salesy, because they're not a salesperson. Eric: We try it, too. If you look at our Instagram account, the Beardbrand account is replying to comments, you'll always see Sylvester. He's replying to him. He'll sign his name, or whoever's replying to a comment. On YouTube, they'll sign their name. We're totally in favor of get to know our people, get to know our copywriter, Mike, and get to know our growth marketer, James. Eric: Again, we talked about how you compete with Amazon. Amazon doesn't have a James. They don't have a Mike. They don't have a Lindsey. They don't have a Jordan. They don't have Chandler. But, we have those people. The more we can help them get to know the team. Then, the risk is if you just work with one person within your company, then, that person could hold you hostage or quit or leave or getting a DUI or do something like that. If you have 10 or 20 different people on the regular who you integrate into your content, then, in the natural course of business, as people move on and things change, then, you'll still be able to move forward. Stephanie: In a world where everything is becoming automated and you always know you're talking to bots, I think it's actually nice how certain business models are kind of flipping that. You're mentioning about developing a relationship with the person at the company where you are used to seeing the same name and you kind of are developing an Internet relationship with someone at the company that you trust and grow to love. I like how that model is kind of reversing a bit over the past year. Eric: Sylvester, who I mentioned, that's his full time job, is he runs a community. His responsibility is to build those relationships. He's heading up our private forums. He's putting on these events. He's interacting with people on Twitter and Instagram. As they chat on Twitter, and as they chat on YouTube, and they see the same name over and over again. They start to learn about him. Eric: In our emails, we'll have a photograph of him. We'll talk about him. We'll talk about the style. People will start to trust his input because, obviously, me as the founder, a lot of videos or a lot of views to those videos, a lot of people want to come and talk to me, but I can't interact with 40 people a day and still run the company and have sanity, really. Well, to scale up what I bring, and not only that, Sylvester's got way more incredible style than me. He's a lot more empathetic than me. He's able to really provide these people great advice in a way that I cannot. It brings a lot of joy to me to be able to offer that to our audience, and also, that Sylvester is able to do what he loves. Stephanie: That's really fun. To zoom out a bit, go a little bit higher level, what kind of digital commerce trends are you most excited about that are coming down the pike right now? Eric: Probably, the thing I don't follow too much is the trends. I feel like we just kind of fall into them. SMS is something that a lot of people are talking about, and something that we've actually been doing for a good half a year now. We do it in a way that, I think, most people aren't doing it. Most people see SMS as just another channel to market and throw sales and discounts. That drives consumers crazy. If I see someone marketing to me on SMS, I'm just like, "You're dead to me." How we're using it is as style consulting. You text us, send us a photo. Stephanie: That's good. Eric: SMS is perfect for that because you got your phone there, take a selfie, send it to us, we can tell you where you're trimming your beard, how your neckline is coming in, what your hairline looks like, and what kind of hairstyle will work for you. I think that's an excellent way to use SMS. It's funny. Once we started using SMS that way, the company we work with, Emotive, they actually changed their whole marketing position to be more about style consultants and beauty consultants, and things like that. Stephanie: That's funny. Eric: I want to take full credit for that, but I would like to say we had a little bit of influence in the way that they're selling us on this. I think that's better for the consumer as well to be able to connect with them on a one-to-one kind of consultant basis, rather. Stephanie: How do you make sure they stick with your brand? I can see them, maybe, not having the expertise, like you're talking about, how you're trimming your beard wrong, or what kind of product you need, because of whatever they see in the photo, how do you make sure that they stick with your brand guidelines and make sure they're speaking in the way that you want and they're recommending things correctly and not giving bad advice? Eric: This goes back to our core values, which are freedom, honor, and trust. Part of the hiring process is making sure that we hire people who align with these core values. Then, it's not blind faith with trust, but through experience and interactions. I know Sylvester. I know his style. I see him show up every day in the office and what he's wearing and how he's behaving and how he communicates. It's like, "Dude, man. Go at it. Be yourself." Our brand standard is communicate to our customers in a way that you communicate to your friends. Those no corporate speak, nothing. Eric: If you're a goofy guy, talk goofy. If you're a serious guy, talk serious. Be yourself. You are going to have different experiences. Interacting with Sylvester is going to be different than interacting with Matt. They're two different people. That's totally okay. Stephanie: That's great. Are there any other channels that you're utilizing or looking to utilize over the next couple of years? Eric: For us, our goal has been, again, going back to me being an A.D.D. entrepreneur, you try a little bit of everything. The past two years has been fixing all of my A.D.D. new channels that we've been in. We killed Amazon. We killed selling in the Europe. We've cut marketing channels. It's really how do we get better at the channels we're in? How do we get better at Facebook marketing? How do we get better at Instagram marketing? How do we get better YouTube content? Eric: Like I said, we have a newer, smaller YouTube channel that we're trying to grow and build that awareness. In terms of just completely introducing anything that we've never done before, like TV advertising or radio advertising or podcast advertising, we're going to be staying away from that until we feel like we've completely capitalized on the opportunities of the channels we're currently in. Stephanie: That makes sense. I think killing projects and platforms is a good first step to making sure that you can focus on what's actually working to, then, move into a new channel around the tryout. It sounds like a good strategy to me. Eric: I'll tell you, it sucks, though, when you kill something and then you don't get better at the thing you're supposed to get better at. Stephanie: Yeah, that's a big bummer. Eric: We've done that. Stephanie: That happened a few times? Eric: Yeah. When we pulled out of Europe, Europe was about 20% of our business. We did this March 31st of last year. It was about 20% of our business. The intent was with the new focus of not having to deal with multiple fulfillment centers and different time zones and multiple stores and things like that, that we could get really good at serving our customers. Subsequently, 2019 was a terrible year for us. We weren't able to capture the lost sales that I thought we'd be able to by having more focus. We've had to really analyze. It wasn't so much selling into Europe. That was the thing. I think it was more of the internal structure of our team and kind of red tape that got put in place after seven years of business and systems and processes that kind of built up on itself. We should have taken an axe to all of that, rather than, maybe, potentially taking an axe to the UK channel. Stephanie: Got it. Is there any big initiatives that you undertook that you were like, you talked about internal processes and structures, is there any one thing that led to kind of riding the business back to where you wanted to go after the whole shutting down Europe? Eric: Yeah. Transparently, we had the worst fourth quarter we've ever had. It was a bloodbath. We were just losing a significant amount of cash and just burning through cash. We just had to make hard decisions about the business. When you're hemorrhaging money, you're not profitable, we had to scale back to 15. A leaner team means, "Hey, we're no longer going to have people proofing your work anymore. You're going to have to be responsible for your own work-end. You're no longer going to have someone who's kind of being the quarterback of the marketing team. You have to kind of interact directly with your audience, or your coworkers." By scaling back the team, you were almost, by necessity, forced to cut a lot of that red tape and focus on getting stuff done. Stephanie: Super important. All right. At the end of the interview, we'd like to do a lightning round, which is where I ask you a question and you have under a minute to quickly answer whatever comes to mind. Are you ready, Eric? Eric: I am electrified. Stephanie: Woo-hoo. All right. What's up next on new product launches coming to Beardbrand, if any? Eric: Our big thing is killing scent confusion or ending scent confusion. We want to provide head to toe fragrance and matching products. We don't have anything in your midsection. That's a little hint of a product that will be coming. Stephanie: Fun. I'll have to stay tuned for that. What's up next content or video-wise that you're excited about producing or creating next? Eric: We want to systematize our barbershop and winding in five different barbers and record over the course of a week, which would be a new way for us to perform. I can't wait to do that, but, this whole quarantine has got to end first. Stephanie: That sounds really fun. What's up next on your reading list? Eric: I hate reading. Stephanie: Podcasts, audible, anything? Eric: I hate reading. I'll tell you I just finished the book called Rocket Fuel which talks about integrators and visionaries. It was the one book that I've read over the past year. I'm just going to piggyback off of that one. Stephanie: I don't like it. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Eric: Again, man, I just had a baby five weeks ago. Stephanie: Congrats. Me, too. Eric: Oh, no way. Stephanie: Yeah. I had twins eight weeks ago. Eric: Oh, poor you. Stephanie: Poor us. Eric: It's got to be crazy, right? We're in the quarantine. Stephanie: Yeah. No Netflix for us then, huh? I don't know. I watch Tiger Kings in my off time when they're sleeping. Eric: My answer is a lot of primitive survival type of videos on YouTube. That's my go-to content that I consume. Stephanie: That's great. All right. A little harder one, what's up next for e-commerce pros? Eric: I think there's going to be a move away from Amazon from both a consumer perspective and a seller perspective. I think Amazon is really kind of twisting the screw in a lot of people. There's going to be a little bit of blowback from that. Stephanie: Completely agree, especially with everything going on right now where Amazon's picking what products are essential. I think they just said that they are going to be optimizing for its margins. Instead of showing people, maybe, what they want to find, they're going to be showing people products that have higher margins. I can see that also happening. Eric: They're also neutering a lot of people in the affiliate space where they just literally cut their commissions in half. Stephanie: That's not good. Eric: [crosstalk 00:54:51]. Stephanie: Well, it sounds a good prediction, then. Eric: Yeah. Less people will be pointing links to Amazon, I think. Stephanie: All right. Any final words of advice or wisdom, Eric, that you want to share before we hop off? Eric: The big thing I always like to tell people is, in life you always have doubts and questions about what you need to do. The reality is you need to just go out there, execute, and do it. Action, a lot of times, is better than no action. Just go out there. You know what you need to do. Go and get it done. Stephanie: Yes, do it. All right. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Eric. It was a blast. See you soon. Eric: My pleasure.  

This is an episode full of questions! We’ve got answers! Have you ever wondered how labs develop black & white film? Do your photos tell a story? We’ve also got an interview with David Chao, a zine review and some news!Answering MachineDo you feel that your photos or a selection of your photos tell a larger story?It was an odd question this week. Did it break Eric? It probably did. But we had an array of answers and some fun discussion.Hello, DavidOur interview this episode is with David Chao. David grew up between San Francisco and Osaka, Japan. The way he captures the story of a people and their culture is something a bit different than we’ve seen before. While his individual photos may be striking, his series and collections are what create his powerful narrative.@davidchao.film on IGdavidchaophotography.comHere are a few of his photos:How Do Labs Process Black & White Film?But when a photographer drops their film off at a lab, all of those choices are left to the lab. Now, granted, these folks are professionals, often with decades of experience. They’ve honed their craft from an art to a science and back again.Still, we’ve always wondered what happens when you drop black & white film off at a lab. We’ve both done it before, and both had no idea what goes on behind the scenes. We just dropped off the rolls and picked them up a few days later. They looked great and we didn’t really question why.But now we are. Why? Why do they look so good? It’s a question that’s always been in my head. So we reached out to about a dozen labs – and a HUGE thanks to the five that responded.We asked them two questions. First:Do you have a specific developer that you use or each common emulsion?And second:What is the practice for when a customer brings you a roll of some mysterious black & white emulsion? For example, some oddball low ISO Soviet film.We talked with five different labs:Panda Lab – @pandalabseattleCafe Obscura – @cafeobscurasudburyRoberts Camera – @robertscameraIconLA – @iconlaBlue Moon Camera – @bluemooncameraEach answered these two questions in some really interesting and unique ways.Zine ReviewThis is a halfsize, landscape zine, 32 pages, color and b&w. As the name highly suggests, this was taken on a roadtrip from New York to Charleston, South Carolina, though he dips down into Savannah.The photos are mostly empty, which is right in my wheelhouse. This is what I like to shoot, and this is what I like to see. The B&W shots, mostly on HP5, live up to all the praise of that emulsion. Even the Fomapan looks wonderful (something I really can’t make happen).Daniel recently reprinted this issue, and it’s available on his website – danielnovakphoto.com for $8.The Slow Meow ZineOur first rebranded film was dubbed the Slow Meow (it was Tasma Mikrat 200). It was neat to see how many of you used the hashtag and shared their results on IG.So we’ve been talking about this. While this is *our* podcast, we really like to open it up to the community. And because of that, we’d like to make a community zine. And since so many of you shot with the Slow Meow, we’d like to make a zine of a selection of those photos.So if you got the film, we’d like you to submit six of your favorite Slow Meow photosWe’re going to compile a zine together with everyone who has shot with it. Everyone who appears in the zine will receive a free copy (you can always buy more copies). The rest will be sold and traded like any other zine.Criteria:Size of image: at least 3600 x 2400(ish) at 300dpiCut off date: July 30Submit via Email only: allthroughalens.podcast@gmail.comInfo needed: Name; IG/Twitter handle; Camera used; Mailing address—Be sure to check out our Dev Party episodes. They’re about to get even more pee-inducing!Music by Last Regiment of Syncopated DrummersVania: IG, Flickr, ZinesEric: IG, Flickr, Zines, ECN-2 KitsAll Through a Lens: IG, Website

Phil’s guest on this episode of the IT Career Energizer podcast is Eric Weinstein. He is an engineering leader focused on building performant, scalable and easy-to-use distributed applications.  He has a background in web development, SVOD, ad tech and machine learning as well as experience with mobile development and blockchain applications. He is currently Director of Engineering at ZipRecruiter where he’s helping to build the world’s first artificially intelligent job marketplace. In this episode, Phil and Eric discuss how to incrementally achieve your long-term career goals while staying current and relevant. They talk about avoiding burnout and how working in small efficient teams is effective. Eric discusses numerous ways AI and machine learning will be used in the future and the challenges this throws up. They discuss how to avoid communication failures.   KEY TAKEAWAYS: (2.07) TOP CAREER TIP Set your career goals for 5 years time. Then work your way backwards to figure out where you need to be in 3 years, 2 years and 6 months to be able to attain that ultimate 5-year career goal. At those points, set yourself milestones along that path. This will ensure that you achieve your long-term career objectives. In the podcast, Eric explains how to adjust this approach to take account of the fact things change fast in the IT industry.   (4.19) WORST CAREER MOMENT At one stage in his career Eric found himself working crazy long hours. Late evening, weekends and occasionally 24-hour shifts. They got the product out on time. But, everyone being sleep deprived and stressed did a lot of damage to staff goodwill and morale. It was a bad time for Eric. Now he will happily crunch when needed, but will not let it become a regular occurrence.   (5.57) CAREER HIGHLIGHT The launch of AUX. Taking things from a product vision to launch was a very gratifying experience. It was great being responsible for every part of a product. Eric is especially proud of the fact they managed to do that while still respecting everyone’s work-life balance.   (7.44) THE FUTURE OF CAREERS IN I.T Eric is excited about the role that machine learning and AI are playing in shaping IT and the world we live in. People are using these technologies to tap into their own intuition and experience. This tech is augmenting their skills, making them more effective, rather than replacing them. The way natural language processing and AR are developing is also very exciting. They are going to make people’s lives so much richer. Eric shares several interesting examples of this and does so in some depth.   (11.44) THE REVEAL What first attracted you to a career in I.T.? – Eric’s publishing career lead to one in IT. In the podcast, he explains how he took this unusual path into the industry. What’s the best career advice you received? – It does not cost anything to be nice. What’s the worst career advice you received? – If you keep your head down and do good work, people will automatically notice. That approach rarely works. What would you do if you started your career now? – Eric’s undergraduate work was in philosophy, he would make sure it was computer science, instead. What are your current career objectives? – Continuing to get better at communication and help his team to translate the high-level vision into action. What’s your number one non-technical skill? – Communication, Eric has worked on becoming effective in all communication delivery formats. How do you keep your own career energized? – Eric enjoys attending conferences. It is a great way to find out about emerging trends and make new connections. What do you do away from technology? – Eric is enjoying being a dad and likes to work out regularly. He is also hoping to get back into Taekwondo.   (22.59) FINAL CAREER TIP Our industry is nominally about technology, but mostly it is about people and putting them first. Focus on your human relationships not just the work that you are doing.   BEST MOMENTS (2.24) – Eric - “Set your 5-year career goal then set milestone goals to get you there.” (5.15) – Eric - “Constantly overtaxing yourself and working crazy hours leads to poor work.” (13.55) – Eric - “It does not cost anything to be nice. Things go smoother when you are.” (20.14) – Eric - “Please spend time on communication, it is critical.” (23.57) – Eric - “If you want to go far, pick a solid team to go with you.”   ABOUT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil Burgess is an independent IT consultant who has spent the last 20 years helping organisations to design, develop and implement software solutions.  Phil has always had an interest in helping others to develop and advance their careers.  And in 2017 Phil started the I.T. Career Energizer podcast to try to help as many people as possible to learn from the career advice and experiences of those that have been, and still are, on that same career journey.   CONTACT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms: Twitter: https://twitter.com/philtechcareer LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/philburgess Facebook: https://facebook.com/philtechcareer Instagram: https://instagram.com/philtechcareer Website: https://itcareerenergizer.com/contact Phil is also reachable by email at phil@itcareerenergizer.com and via the podcast’s website, https://itcareerenergizer.com Join the I.T. Career Energizer Community on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/ITCareerEnergizer   ABOUT THE GUEST – Eric Weinstein Eric Weinstein is an engineering leader focused on building performant, scalable and easy-to-use distributed applications.  He has a background in web development, SVOD, ad tech and machine learning as well as experience with mobile development and blockchain applications. He is currently Director of Engineering at ZipRecruiter where he’s helping to build the world’s first artificially intelligent job marketplace.   CONTACT THE GUEST – Eric Weinstein Eric Weinstein can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms: Twitter: https://twitter.com/ericqweinstein LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericqweinstein/ Website: http://ericweinste.in/    

GUEST BIO: Eric Lippert is a programmer who builds tools for other programmers.  He’s worked on Visual Basic, JavaScript and C# at Microsoft, designed code analyzers at Coverity, and is now working on a variety of programming language design problems at Facebook. EPISODE DESCRIPTION: Phil’s guest on today’s show is Eric Lippert. His career has been a long and varied one. He was a Principal Developer at Microsoft and a member of the C# language design team. Eric was also involved in the design and implementation of VBScript, JScript, Windows Script Host and Visual Studio Tools for Office. Over the years, Eric has published and edited numerous programming books and is now working at Facebook. KEY TAKEAWAYS: (01.00)­­­ – Phil asks Eric to expand on his brief introduction. Eric said that he studied computer science and maths at the University of Waterloo. There they run a co-operative education system where you study for 4 months and work for 4. He was an intern at Wacom and Microsoft. When he left Microsoft he went to work at Coverity. He is now working on developer tools at Facebook. (3.39) – Phil asks Eric for a unique IT career tip. When Eric was a young developer at Microsoft his manager told him to “find a source of questions and learn to answer them”. He put that advice to work straight away and read every question in the JavaScript group. If someone asked a question that related to his area that he did not know the answer to, he would go away and find out. That taught him to answer queries concisely, which in turn honed his own knowledge. (5.54) – Can you tell us about your worst IT career moment and what you learned from the experience? Eric says it was probably the morning he woke up to the headline “Worst Security Flaw Ever Found in Internet Explorer”. Eric had worked on the piece of code that was involved in the issue. At first, he thought that he may have made the error. It turned out that his code had been changed and that change had not been properly reviewed, so the potential weakness was not found. The security flaw was nowhere near as serious as reported by the press. It would have required a virtually impossible hack to be executed in order to take advantage of the flaw. After that, a much stronger culture of code reviews was put into place. (9.17) – Phil says to Eric - Can you maybe take us through your career highlights or greatest success? Eric says there were two. The first was his work on a new version of VisualStudio. They met the completion target date and every single planned feature was included in the release. His other highlight was being involved in the “from scratch” C sharp rewrite. That massive project was also successfully completed and shipped. C sharp now has over 5 million lines of code, it is truly huge. (14.42) – Looking to the future Phil wants to know what excites Eric about the IT industry. Eric says it is the fact that we have still only really scratched the surface. There are so many features that can still be added to the various languages. For example, we can take features from programming languages and add them to production languages which would immediately raise the bar. We want to be able to write programs that can reason naturally about all kinds of probabilistic things and we are getting there. There is still a ton of stuff to do in the programming languages and tools space. (17.43) – What first attracted you to a career in IT? Eric started programming before he owned a computer. He would write them out on paper and type them into the school’s Commodore PET. He had intended to study either mathematics or physics. But, he soon realized that he was not good at physics. He was much better at computer programming and enjoyed it, plus he could work while studying IT. (19.22) – What is the best career advice you have been given? Eric reiterated the advice to find a source of questions and answer them. But, he added that it was important to learn how to write well. Learn how to be concise and convince people that you’ve written correct code. To do that you need to write convincingly. (20.29) if you were to begin your IT career again, right now, what would you do? Eric says he would study statistics. Much of the machine learning and probabilistic programming is about understanding statistics. With differential programming there is even calculus involved, something Eric never expected to see. (21.27) – What objectives are you focusing on now Eric? He responded by saying, "Building cutting-edge tools and helping real developers to get real stuff done". The same focus he had at the start of his career. (21.30) – What would you consider to be your most important non-technical skill? Being able to communicate effectively, it is crucial. (22.57) - Eric, can you share a parting piece of career advice with the IT Career Energizer audience. Know your tools. I get pitched features for tools and programming languages that already exist. It shows that a lot of people do not know their tools well. It also indicates that the tools are not as discoverable as they should be. Users need to dig in and understand them better and tool providers need to make their tools more discoverable. BEST MOMENTS:  (2.18) ERIC – “I have a keyboard on my desk that is older than my intern.” (4.09) ERIC – “Find a source of questions and learn to answer them”  (9.27) ERIC – “I want to ship actual code that solves actual developer’s problems” (14.34) ERIC – “It’s immensely satisfying to build something really, really big that actually works.” (17.25) ERIC – “Every time you build a tool, you magnify your impact across the entire industry.” (20.54) ERIC - “So much of machine learning and probabilistic programming is about understanding statistical concepts.” CONTACT ERIC LIPPET: Twitter: https://twitter.com/ericlippert @ericlippert LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-lippert-a3893485/ Website: https://ericlippert.com

Panel: David Kimura Eric Berry In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panelists talk amongst themselves about their favorite software, equipment, and apps. Both Eric and David thoroughly share their preferred picks within these categories, and they explain how and why they use the specified item. Check out today’s episode to hear more! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Sentry.io 1:03 – David: Welcome! Today, Chuck is not feeling well. I am David and today we have Eric Berry on our panel today. It is just the two of us today. I want to talk about our development environment. What is your setup like? Do you have an office space and your hardware? 1:58 – Eric: I Have a room in my basement that has everything that I need. I do work from home. There is my guitar, my geek toys and more. For my hardware I am using 2017 MacBook Pro (16 GB of ram). The 13-inch is convenient, but I upgraded b/c I do a lot of traveling. I do pull the iPad out and use DUET. You no longer have to use a cord. I have a monitor that is 30-inches and it’s gorgeous. That is my hardware setup. I am not a mechanical keyboard guy, and I stick with the Apple super flat keyboard. I do use Bestand – it’s a holster for the keyboard and the track pad. What do you have? 4:35 – David: I have a Frankenstein setup. My needs change, over time, and when that changes my hardware changes. Back in the day I did not have a Mac and I used a Windows machine. I used to be a gamer, but then met my wife and then stopped b/c she didn’t like for me to waste time. My setup is more proper. I have a baseline iMac Pro b/c there was a great deal of $1,000 off. The other option was an iMac. I like the desktop b/c that’s where I do work – at home. It was a $4,000 investment. I am on my computer ALL the time it was worth it to me. I got the wall-mount for me, and I have more monitors wall-mounted, too. 8:00 – David: That is my monitor and computer setup. I have an eco-rhythmic keyboard b/c of childhood injuries. I have a really old Microsoft keyboard from 2005 something. It was cheap but I like the style of it. For my mouse I have a Logitech mouse. I love the feel of this thing. It has a side scroll left and right, and up and down. Especially when I am looking at code. It helps with my video editing, too. My mouse is my favorite to-date. I don’t have too much plugged into the Mac. I have a GoDrive, which has everything on it – my whole life’s work is on there. If there is ever an emergency I know to grab that. Back things up in case of an emergency would be my tips to you all. 11:40 – Eric: I have struggled with backing things up actually. The problem that I have is that I am constantly moving my laptop. I have this guilt and fear of doing it wrong. 12:33 – David: I have this work laptop – I don’t back that up every day.  David gives Eric his suggestions in regards to backing files up. David mentions Back Blaze. 14:05 – Eric: That makes sense. I live in the Apple eco-system. I have my phone, watch, 40 iPads, laptop – everything backs up to the Cloud. The date we are recording this is 10/30/18. Apple just announced a new upgrade. I feel like this could compete with an actual laptop computer. Eric asks David a question. 15:35 – David: ...My main problem with that is that you might already have a developmental machine. It’s a stationary computer then it’s not feasible to take on the go. I do have an iPad Pro and I will take that on the go. I can login to my home network. BLINK – I used on my iPad Pro. David continues to talk about his setup. 19:00 – Eric: I kind of agree with you. I have seen it used quite a bit. My brother does everything online for his job. The pros are that if you are training, and his company is configured that way. The pros is that you can code from anywhere on anyone’s computer. I am glad that it DOES exist. It’s not Cloud9 but someone does offer... 20:20 – David: I think going to a solo screen does hurt my productivity – working on the iPad vs. working on the computer. I could get faster and faster but only to a certain degree. If you have the resources – then I don’t think it’s sustainable. However, if you don’t have the resources it’s better than nothing. At least you are coding and that’s important. 22:15 – Eric: I think of the audience we cater to with Ruby Rogues. I wonder if our listeners are strapped for cash or if they do have the resources to get the job done? 22:48 – David: If you don’t have a lot of money, you don’t have to buy a Mac. If Cloud hosting isn’t your thing there are different options. You have DOCKER, and use Windows as your main editor, and the WSL. I wanted to do a test – I bout a laptop for $500-$700 and you can get away with doing what you need to do. Learning how to program and code with what you have is great! 25:00 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! 26:05 – Eric: Let’s talk about the software developer environment. Nate Hopkins isn’t on today, but you can’t change his mind – I am VEM all the way. I think Cuck is EMAX. 26:43 – Eric: What do you do? 26:45 – David: I use VS code. David talks about the benefits of using VS code. 27:37 – Eric: Yes, 100%. I met the lead engineer behind VS code. They just made a new announcement. I have been using VS code for quite a while now. The integrated terminal and other features are awesome. Pulling me out of Sublime Text was a really, really hard thing for me. 29:28 – David: Sublime text, yes, but I got tired of the 40-year long beta, and the lack of expanding it, too. VS code has won my heart over. 30:53 – Eric: My guess is that they are going to leave it alone. I am sure they will connect the 2 teams. Think of how much work has gone into ATOM. That would be a hard pill to swallow. 31:20 – David: At the end of the day, though, it is a company. You don’t need 2 different editors when they do the same thing. 31:40 – Eric: I would have to disagree with you. Maybe they won’t merge the 2 but they just become different between ATOM (React and React Native) and... 32:22 – David: Why would a company cancel something only have 1 season? (Clears throat...Fox!) 32:58 – Eric: I open very large files with Sublime. Sublime handles this very easily. This goes back to: why am I opening up very large files? 33:31 – David: It’s a log file don’t lie. 33:40 – David: What browser do you use? Safari? 34:03 – Eric: Safari is nice for non-developers. Safari is lightweight and very fast. I have been a browser whore. I go from bedroom to bedroom from Opera to Firefox to Chrome. I fall into the Chrome field though. I have a problem with Chrome, though, and that it knows me too well. Google can sell my data and they do. 37:14 – David: With BRAVE, weren’t they doing something with the block chain and bit coin to reward you for browsing? 37:38 – Eric: Yeah I think that’s being run by... 38:03 – David: I still use CHROME b/c I like the extensions. It’s important to know why you are picking a certain browser. When you are talking about development you need to know who your target audience is. What kind of apps do you use? 39:54 – Eric: It’s interesting to see how much traffic the Android Browser gets. You want to switch over to other parts? For my tech software...I use Polymail.io for email. I use THINGS to keep me on-track, I use SLACK, BRAVE BROSWER, iTerm3 and MERT. I use FANTASTICO (calendar), and I use BEAR (for my note taking). What about you? 41:21 – David: I use iTerm3, too. I’m on 3 different Slack channels. I have been using DISCORD. Other tools that I use are SPECTACLE (extension) among others. I try to keep it slim and simple, though. Another one is EasyRez (free download) and you can adjust the screen resolution on your desktop monitors. It’s important to target my audience better. I do like PARALLELS, too. 44:24 – David continues: Screenflow, Apple Motion, and Adobe After Effects CC. 45:04 – Eric: I use 1 PASSWORD and BETA BASE. 46:04 – David: Have you heard of Last Pass? 46:15 – Eric: Oh sure! I have been using though 1 Password and I guess there some loyalty there. 46:54 – David asks Eric a question about 1 Password about pricing. 47:12 – Eric: I want to pay with money than with something else. 47:23 – David: It’s owned by LogMeIn, and they have tons of experience with security. 48:00 – Eric: I am going to put an article here that compares all these different apps so you can see the similarities and differences side-by-side. 48:40 – David: Anything else? Banking passwords? 48:54 – Eric: Nah, I am excited to see where we are. I like Mojave for the desktop but I don’t like it for the constant number of resets that I’ve had to do. I love what I do. 49:34 – David: Yeah, I agree. I haven’t experienced any major setbacks, yet. 49:55 – Picks! 50:03 – Eric: I think this whole episode has been PICKS! 50:15 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! End – Cache Fly! Links: Get a Coder Job Course Ruby Rust Ruby Motion Ruby on Rails Angular React React Native Komodo Bestand Duet Atom.io EasyRez Polymail.io Docker Adobe After Effects CC LogMeIn Brave 1 Password iTerm3 VS CODE iPad Pro Last Pass GoDrive Mojave EMAX Back Blaze Discord Sublime Text AWS Cloud9 StatCounter GitHub: Mert Bear App Process.st Pi-Hole Sponsors: Sentry Cache Fly Fresh Books Picks: Dave ProxMox Pi-Hole Eric Open Source Funders

Panel: David Kimura Eric Berry In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panelists talk amongst themselves about their favorite software, equipment, and apps. Both Eric and David thoroughly share their preferred picks within these categories, and they explain how and why they use the specified item. Check out today’s episode to hear more! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Sentry.io 1:03 – David: Welcome! Today, Chuck is not feeling well. I am David and today we have Eric Berry on our panel today. It is just the two of us today. I want to talk about our development environment. What is your setup like? Do you have an office space and your hardware? 1:58 – Eric: I Have a room in my basement that has everything that I need. I do work from home. There is my guitar, my geek toys and more. For my hardware I am using 2017 MacBook Pro (16 GB of ram). The 13-inch is convenient, but I upgraded b/c I do a lot of traveling. I do pull the iPad out and use DUET. You no longer have to use a cord. I have a monitor that is 30-inches and it’s gorgeous. That is my hardware setup. I am not a mechanical keyboard guy, and I stick with the Apple super flat keyboard. I do use Bestand – it’s a holster for the keyboard and the track pad. What do you have? 4:35 – David: I have a Frankenstein setup. My needs change, over time, and when that changes my hardware changes. Back in the day I did not have a Mac and I used a Windows machine. I used to be a gamer, but then met my wife and then stopped b/c she didn’t like for me to waste time. My setup is more proper. I have a baseline iMac Pro b/c there was a great deal of $1,000 off. The other option was an iMac. I like the desktop b/c that’s where I do work – at home. It was a $4,000 investment. I am on my computer ALL the time it was worth it to me. I got the wall-mount for me, and I have more monitors wall-mounted, too. 8:00 – David: That is my monitor and computer setup. I have an eco-rhythmic keyboard b/c of childhood injuries. I have a really old Microsoft keyboard from 2005 something. It was cheap but I like the style of it. For my mouse I have a Logitech mouse. I love the feel of this thing. It has a side scroll left and right, and up and down. Especially when I am looking at code. It helps with my video editing, too. My mouse is my favorite to-date. I don’t have too much plugged into the Mac. I have a GoDrive, which has everything on it – my whole life’s work is on there. If there is ever an emergency I know to grab that. Back things up in case of an emergency would be my tips to you all. 11:40 – Eric: I have struggled with backing things up actually. The problem that I have is that I am constantly moving my laptop. I have this guilt and fear of doing it wrong. 12:33 – David: I have this work laptop – I don’t back that up every day.  David gives Eric his suggestions in regards to backing files up. David mentions Back Blaze. 14:05 – Eric: That makes sense. I live in the Apple eco-system. I have my phone, watch, 40 iPads, laptop – everything backs up to the Cloud. The date we are recording this is 10/30/18. Apple just announced a new upgrade. I feel like this could compete with an actual laptop computer. Eric asks David a question. 15:35 – David: ...My main problem with that is that you might already have a developmental machine. It’s a stationary computer then it’s not feasible to take on the go. I do have an iPad Pro and I will take that on the go. I can login to my home network. BLINK – I used on my iPad Pro. David continues to talk about his setup. 19:00 – Eric: I kind of agree with you. I have seen it used quite a bit. My brother does everything online for his job. The pros are that if you are training, and his company is configured that way. The pros is that you can code from anywhere on anyone’s computer. I am glad that it DOES exist. It’s not Cloud9 but someone does offer... 20:20 – David: I think going to a solo screen does hurt my productivity – working on the iPad vs. working on the computer. I could get faster and faster but only to a certain degree. If you have the resources – then I don’t think it’s sustainable. However, if you don’t have the resources it’s better than nothing. At least you are coding and that’s important. 22:15 – Eric: I think of the audience we cater to with Ruby Rogues. I wonder if our listeners are strapped for cash or if they do have the resources to get the job done? 22:48 – David: If you don’t have a lot of money, you don’t have to buy a Mac. If Cloud hosting isn’t your thing there are different options. You have DOCKER, and use Windows as your main editor, and the WSL. I wanted to do a test – I bout a laptop for $500-$700 and you can get away with doing what you need to do. Learning how to program and code with what you have is great! 25:00 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! 26:05 – Eric: Let’s talk about the software developer environment. Nate Hopkins isn’t on today, but you can’t change his mind – I am VEM all the way. I think Cuck is EMAX. 26:43 – Eric: What do you do? 26:45 – David: I use VS code. David talks about the benefits of using VS code. 27:37 – Eric: Yes, 100%. I met the lead engineer behind VS code. They just made a new announcement. I have been using VS code for quite a while now. The integrated terminal and other features are awesome. Pulling me out of Sublime Text was a really, really hard thing for me. 29:28 – David: Sublime text, yes, but I got tired of the 40-year long beta, and the lack of expanding it, too. VS code has won my heart over. 30:53 – Eric: My guess is that they are going to leave it alone. I am sure they will connect the 2 teams. Think of how much work has gone into ATOM. That would be a hard pill to swallow. 31:20 – David: At the end of the day, though, it is a company. You don’t need 2 different editors when they do the same thing. 31:40 – Eric: I would have to disagree with you. Maybe they won’t merge the 2 but they just become different between ATOM (React and React Native) and... 32:22 – David: Why would a company cancel something only have 1 season? (Clears throat...Fox!) 32:58 – Eric: I open very large files with Sublime. Sublime handles this very easily. This goes back to: why am I opening up very large files? 33:31 – David: It’s a log file don’t lie. 33:40 – David: What browser do you use? Safari? 34:03 – Eric: Safari is nice for non-developers. Safari is lightweight and very fast. I have been a browser whore. I go from bedroom to bedroom from Opera to Firefox to Chrome. I fall into the Chrome field though. I have a problem with Chrome, though, and that it knows me too well. Google can sell my data and they do. 37:14 – David: With BRAVE, weren’t they doing something with the block chain and bit coin to reward you for browsing? 37:38 – Eric: Yeah I think that’s being run by... 38:03 – David: I still use CHROME b/c I like the extensions. It’s important to know why you are picking a certain browser. When you are talking about development you need to know who your target audience is. What kind of apps do you use? 39:54 – Eric: It’s interesting to see how much traffic the Android Browser gets. You want to switch over to other parts? For my tech software...I use Polymail.io for email. I use THINGS to keep me on-track, I use SLACK, BRAVE BROSWER, iTerm3 and MERT. I use FANTASTICO (calendar), and I use BEAR (for my note taking). What about you? 41:21 – David: I use iTerm3, too. I’m on 3 different Slack channels. I have been using DISCORD. Other tools that I use are SPECTACLE (extension) among others. I try to keep it slim and simple, though. Another one is EasyRez (free download) and you can adjust the screen resolution on your desktop monitors. It’s important to target my audience better. I do like PARALLELS, too. 44:24 – David continues: Screenflow, Apple Motion, and Adobe After Effects CC. 45:04 – Eric: I use 1 PASSWORD and BETA BASE. 46:04 – David: Have you heard of Last Pass? 46:15 – Eric: Oh sure! I have been using though 1 Password and I guess there some loyalty there. 46:54 – David asks Eric a question about 1 Password about pricing. 47:12 – Eric: I want to pay with money than with something else. 47:23 – David: It’s owned by LogMeIn, and they have tons of experience with security. 48:00 – Eric: I am going to put an article here that compares all these different apps so you can see the similarities and differences side-by-side. 48:40 – David: Anything else? Banking passwords? 48:54 – Eric: Nah, I am excited to see where we are. I like Mojave for the desktop but I don’t like it for the constant number of resets that I’ve had to do. I love what I do. 49:34 – David: Yeah, I agree. I haven’t experienced any major setbacks, yet. 49:55 – Picks! 50:03 – Eric: I think this whole episode has been PICKS! 50:15 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! End – Cache Fly! Links: Get a Coder Job Course Ruby Rust Ruby Motion Ruby on Rails Angular React React Native Komodo Bestand Duet Atom.io EasyRez Polymail.io Docker Adobe After Effects CC LogMeIn Brave 1 Password iTerm3 VS CODE iPad Pro Last Pass GoDrive Mojave EMAX Back Blaze Discord Sublime Text AWS Cloud9 StatCounter GitHub: Mert Bear App Process.st Pi-Hole Sponsors: Sentry Cache Fly Fresh Books Picks: Dave ProxMox Pi-Hole Eric Open Source Funders

Panel: David Kimura Eric Berry In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panelists talk amongst themselves about their favorite software, equipment, and apps. Both Eric and David thoroughly share their preferred picks within these categories, and they explain how and why they use the specified item. Check out today’s episode to hear more! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Sentry.io 1:03 – David: Welcome! Today, Chuck is not feeling well. I am David and today we have Eric Berry on our panel today. It is just the two of us today. I want to talk about our development environment. What is your setup like? Do you have an office space and your hardware? 1:58 – Eric: I Have a room in my basement that has everything that I need. I do work from home. There is my guitar, my geek toys and more. For my hardware I am using 2017 MacBook Pro (16 GB of ram). The 13-inch is convenient, but I upgraded b/c I do a lot of traveling. I do pull the iPad out and use DUET. You no longer have to use a cord. I have a monitor that is 30-inches and it’s gorgeous. That is my hardware setup. I am not a mechanical keyboard guy, and I stick with the Apple super flat keyboard. I do use Bestand – it’s a holster for the keyboard and the track pad. What do you have? 4:35 – David: I have a Frankenstein setup. My needs change, over time, and when that changes my hardware changes. Back in the day I did not have a Mac and I used a Windows machine. I used to be a gamer, but then met my wife and then stopped b/c she didn’t like for me to waste time. My setup is more proper. I have a baseline iMac Pro b/c there was a great deal of $1,000 off. The other option was an iMac. I like the desktop b/c that’s where I do work – at home. It was a $4,000 investment. I am on my computer ALL the time it was worth it to me. I got the wall-mount for me, and I have more monitors wall-mounted, too. 8:00 – David: That is my monitor and computer setup. I have an eco-rhythmic keyboard b/c of childhood injuries. I have a really old Microsoft keyboard from 2005 something. It was cheap but I like the style of it. For my mouse I have a Logitech mouse. I love the feel of this thing. It has a side scroll left and right, and up and down. Especially when I am looking at code. It helps with my video editing, too. My mouse is my favorite to-date. I don’t have too much plugged into the Mac. I have a GoDrive, which has everything on it – my whole life’s work is on there. If there is ever an emergency I know to grab that. Back things up in case of an emergency would be my tips to you all. 11:40 – Eric: I have struggled with backing things up actually. The problem that I have is that I am constantly moving my laptop. I have this guilt and fear of doing it wrong. 12:33 – David: I have this work laptop – I don’t back that up every day.  David gives Eric his suggestions in regards to backing files up. David mentions Back Blaze. 14:05 – Eric: That makes sense. I live in the Apple eco-system. I have my phone, watch, 40 iPads, laptop – everything backs up to the Cloud. The date we are recording this is 10/30/18. Apple just announced a new upgrade. I feel like this could compete with an actual laptop computer. Eric asks David a question. 15:35 – David: ...My main problem with that is that you might already have a developmental machine. It’s a stationary computer then it’s not feasible to take on the go. I do have an iPad Pro and I will take that on the go. I can login to my home network. BLINK – I used on my iPad Pro. David continues to talk about his setup. 19:00 – Eric: I kind of agree with you. I have seen it used quite a bit. My brother does everything online for his job. The pros are that if you are training, and his company is configured that way. The pros is that you can code from anywhere on anyone’s computer. I am glad that it DOES exist. It’s not Cloud9 but someone does offer... 20:20 – David: I think going to a solo screen does hurt my productivity – working on the iPad vs. working on the computer. I could get faster and faster but only to a certain degree. If you have the resources – then I don’t think it’s sustainable. However, if you don’t have the resources it’s better than nothing. At least you are coding and that’s important. 22:15 – Eric: I think of the audience we cater to with Ruby Rogues. I wonder if our listeners are strapped for cash or if they do have the resources to get the job done? 22:48 – David: If you don’t have a lot of money, you don’t have to buy a Mac. If Cloud hosting isn’t your thing there are different options. You have DOCKER, and use Windows as your main editor, and the WSL. I wanted to do a test – I bout a laptop for $500-$700 and you can get away with doing what you need to do. Learning how to program and code with what you have is great! 25:00 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! 26:05 – Eric: Let’s talk about the software developer environment. Nate Hopkins isn’t on today, but you can’t change his mind – I am VEM all the way. I think Cuck is EMAX. 26:43 – Eric: What do you do? 26:45 – David: I use VS code. David talks about the benefits of using VS code. 27:37 – Eric: Yes, 100%. I met the lead engineer behind VS code. They just made a new announcement. I have been using VS code for quite a while now. The integrated terminal and other features are awesome. Pulling me out of Sublime Text was a really, really hard thing for me. 29:28 – David: Sublime text, yes, but I got tired of the 40-year long beta, and the lack of expanding it, too. VS code has won my heart over. 30:53 – Eric: My guess is that they are going to leave it alone. I am sure they will connect the 2 teams. Think of how much work has gone into ATOM. That would be a hard pill to swallow. 31:20 – David: At the end of the day, though, it is a company. You don’t need 2 different editors when they do the same thing. 31:40 – Eric: I would have to disagree with you. Maybe they won’t merge the 2 but they just become different between ATOM (React and React Native) and... 32:22 – David: Why would a company cancel something only have 1 season? (Clears throat...Fox!) 32:58 – Eric: I open very large files with Sublime. Sublime handles this very easily. This goes back to: why am I opening up very large files? 33:31 – David: It’s a log file don’t lie. 33:40 – David: What browser do you use? Safari? 34:03 – Eric: Safari is nice for non-developers. Safari is lightweight and very fast. I have been a browser whore. I go from bedroom to bedroom from Opera to Firefox to Chrome. I fall into the Chrome field though. I have a problem with Chrome, though, and that it knows me too well. Google can sell my data and they do. 37:14 – David: With BRAVE, weren’t they doing something with the block chain and bit coin to reward you for browsing? 37:38 – Eric: Yeah I think that’s being run by... 38:03 – David: I still use CHROME b/c I like the extensions. It’s important to know why you are picking a certain browser. When you are talking about development you need to know who your target audience is. What kind of apps do you use? 39:54 – Eric: It’s interesting to see how much traffic the Android Browser gets. You want to switch over to other parts? For my tech software...I use Polymail.io for email. I use THINGS to keep me on-track, I use SLACK, BRAVE BROSWER, iTerm3 and MERT. I use FANTASTICO (calendar), and I use BEAR (for my note taking). What about you? 41:21 – David: I use iTerm3, too. I’m on 3 different Slack channels. I have been using DISCORD. Other tools that I use are SPECTACLE (extension) among others. I try to keep it slim and simple, though. Another one is EasyRez (free download) and you can adjust the screen resolution on your desktop monitors. It’s important to target my audience better. I do like PARALLELS, too. 44:24 – David continues: Screenflow, Apple Motion, and Adobe After Effects CC. 45:04 – Eric: I use 1 PASSWORD and BETA BASE. 46:04 – David: Have you heard of Last Pass? 46:15 – Eric: Oh sure! I have been using though 1 Password and I guess there some loyalty there. 46:54 – David asks Eric a question about 1 Password about pricing. 47:12 – Eric: I want to pay with money than with something else. 47:23 – David: It’s owned by LogMeIn, and they have tons of experience with security. 48:00 – Eric: I am going to put an article here that compares all these different apps so you can see the similarities and differences side-by-side. 48:40 – David: Anything else? Banking passwords? 48:54 – Eric: Nah, I am excited to see where we are. I like Mojave for the desktop but I don’t like it for the constant number of resets that I’ve had to do. I love what I do. 49:34 – David: Yeah, I agree. I haven’t experienced any major setbacks, yet. 49:55 – Picks! 50:03 – Eric: I think this whole episode has been PICKS! 50:15 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! End – Cache Fly! Links: Get a Coder Job Course Ruby Rust Ruby Motion Ruby on Rails Angular React React Native Komodo Bestand Duet Atom.io EasyRez Polymail.io Docker Adobe After Effects CC LogMeIn Brave 1 Password iTerm3 VS CODE iPad Pro Last Pass GoDrive Mojave EMAX Back Blaze Discord Sublime Text AWS Cloud9 StatCounter GitHub: Mert Bear App Process.st Pi-Hole Sponsors: Sentry Cache Fly Fresh Books Picks: Dave ProxMox Pi-Hole Eric Open Source Funders

Panel: Mark Ericksen Josh Adams Nate Hopkins Charles Max Wood Special Guest: Eric Oestrich In this episode of Elixir Mix, the panel talks with Eric Oestrich who is a web developer who resides in Indianapolis, Indiana. He and the panel talk about ExVenture, Gossip, Cowboy, Raisin, Grapevine, and much more! Listen to today’s episode to hear all about it! Finally, check out Eric’s ElixirConf talk and his blog, too! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job!  0:51 – Charles introduces the panel. 1:14 – Nate talks about his background. 1:27 – Chuck: My first programming job I worked with Nate. Nate also works now with Eric Berry. We have a special guest and that is Eric Oestrich. Tell us who you are, please! 1:55 – Eric: I work for Smart Logic, LLC. We are a consultancy who has moved to Elixir for the last 2 years. 2:14 – Chuck: Tell us what ExVenture is? 2:46 – Eric: Late 80’s to mid-90’s it’s like a MUD tech space game. Eric goes into detail of what ExVenture is. 3:28 – Panel: Familiar with MUDS. 3:36 – Panel: Audience can’t tell that Eric isn’t an old guy. Eric – you aren’t an old gentleman – how did you get into it?! 4:02 – Eric: The concept has fascinated me. It’s pure game mechanics. In school I wrote things in Python and try to make it threaded. Never got it going. After that I wanted to do a MUD but not good enough in C and couldn’t get it working in Ruby neither. But one faithful day (a year ago) I got an echo and chat server and now we have a MUD. 5:02 – Panel: Why should you be interested? I will tell you why. ExVenture is an open source... I encourage everyone to dig into and play with it! It is a game (so that makes it more fun) but you are dealing with game mechanics. I am also curious where you wanted this to go? What made you say: I want to create this and make it open source? 6:37 – Eric: I like it and work has mostly played for it. It’s MIT because of that. Early in the project (between client work) it was a common thread and that’s why it’s open source. 7:27 – Panel: I ran into you at the conference and you were showing me... Talk about getting metrics out of your system, please? 8:20 – Eric answers the question. 9:09 – Panel: When people are trying to get metrics out of their system – what EVEN makes a good metric? 9:21- Eric: I am trying to figure that out myself, actually. I want to know how long it takes for someone to login? Is that someone trying to hack into my system? If you speak at a global channel or something else... Eric goes into more detail. Eric also mentions Prometheus. 10:31 – Panel: You mentioned: What would you want to see on a dashboard? 11:01 – Eric answers the question and mentions Prometheus EX. 12:19 – Panel: As you starting building this you were pulling libraries out of it and making them separate libraries. Are you pretty proud of GOSSIP? 12:37 – Eric: Yes! Gossip is based on web sockets and it’s a cowboy socket. Eric talks about Gossip. 13:10 – Panel: What other clients are you trying to support? 13:15 – Eric: There is a JavaScript client and Node-based game called... There is a bundle system for that. There is also a Python option. The one thing we haven’t done yet is a C client. That is important b/c most of the games that you could connect to are 25-30 years old. 14:26 – Panel asks a question. 14:34 – Eric: That is the C client we are waiting for. 14:43 – Panel: You talked at the conference (see the show notes) you talked about things you learned along the way. Can you talk about your process? What kind of bottlenecks and how did you resolve those issues? 15:10 – Eric answers the question. 16:44 – Panel: Did you run out of processes? 16:47 – Eric: The VM shut-off – it was just done. That was the first go-around. 19:27 – Eric: After the ElixirConf, I wanted to see how far I could push it. Eric continues. 19:51 – Panel: I want to identify some of these principles you just talked about. First, the major block was the gen server is a single process. 20:21 – Panel. 20:24 – Panel: I think that is a common mistake when people come to Elixir in the beginning stages. How did you solve it? 20:50 – Panelist answers the above question. 21:30 – Panel: That’s one of the big things. It’s an architectural issue. Second, you mentioned really LARGE messages. You were sending around really large messages. 22:20 – Eric: For every 100 players was a gigabyte of ram – it was a lot. And that was mostly b/c every copy...when a new character enters the room then that message gets sent out then it gets copied again, and... 23:08 – Panel. 23:24 – Panel: The third one you mentioned was around data base blocking or...? Can you talk about this one a little more, please? 23:33 – Eric answers the question. 24:02 – Panel. 24:30 – Eric: It was always saving...I tricked Echo into saving...There is a lot of things that could be better to save specifically faster. 24:52 – Panel: I think people would hit those 3 points eventually – there is a lot of value to that. 25:09 –Eric: Yes that was near the end of my ElixirConf talk and my blog. 25:23 – Panel. 25:33 – Eric: It came out in May and I figured out that I needed to learn how to cluster in Elixir. That’s what the ElixirConf was a bout from single node to multiple nodes. Eric continues. 28:38 – Panel: When you have a cluster – and I join – when I transfer from one room to another room, I could be passed off to another server or node? 29:01 – Eric: Whatever you mean by “being passed off.” Whatever server you land on that’s the one you will be on. The magic is that... 30:08 – Advertisement: Fresh Books! 31:15 – Panel: I am going through the code base now and I am excited. It’s going to help me get better at Elixir. 31:32 – Eric: That’s the point of ExVenture. 31:48 – Panel: You host a server so people can see what it’s about – and that’s Mid Mud, right? 32:09 – Eric: Yep, the first hour of you playing. There is a town crier, you request, and then combat monsters. Also, it is plugged into Gossip and you can talk to them. 32:44 – Eric: Yep, there you go: player logged-in! 32:55 – Panel: Maybe not b/c it will turn into a new podcast soon. 33:07 – Panel: What if I want to use Gossip, what is involved there? 33:16 – Eric: Gossip.Haus/docs – Go there! Set it up and start sending and receiving events. 34:40 – Panel: When I was trying to understand the Prometheus metrics it helped. And then in downloading it (as a tip), for me, it was easy to use the DOCKER instructions. 35:32 – Eric: Yep, that was done by a community member. 35:40 – Panel: Are you looking for people to contribute? 35:50 – Eric: Yep, I have a public Trello board. There are 2 tags. 36:12 – Panel: Sounds like you have people involved? 36:22 – Eric: Bunch of people came on after the ElixirConf. 36:33 – Panel: If people download it (another tip) in the SEEDS file you will find out the admin username and password. I guess that’s something you can add. Login: ADMIN and Password: PASSWORD. What I thought was fun (playing with it) in the admin screen I got a sense that it’s generic enough that I could create a space game. Like playing with sectors of space. Does that make sense? 37:42 – Eric: I don’t want it to be tied JUST to fantasy b/c that’s what MUD is. Everything should be good for historical/ fantasy/ etc. any genre that you want to do! 38:13 – Panel: I could see a HackFest and the company could create one for their business. You could have a lot of fun with it. 38:38 – Panel. 38:44 – Panel: Hidden things on their websites. 38:50 – Eric: Search TEXT ADVENTURE in Google Search. See show notes below. 39:24 – Panel: There is a whole subculture that people are interested in and I didn’t know that these people existed. I think that is interesting. 39:45 – Eric: There are tons of games out there that are 20+ years old! 39:55 – Panel: What is your favorite old school MUD game? 40:02 – Eric lists his favorite old school games! One of them is Achaea! 40:51 – Panel: I like the status bars are really cool. If you haven’t played it you have a health bar. Also you have these expiring times and it’s very cool – modern MUD. 41:22 – Eric. 42:00 – Panel: You came from a Ruby background – what was your transition to Elixir like for you? How did you come to Elixir? What was that like for you? 42:15 – Eric: Yeah some of my friends were into Elixir from a functional standpoint about 2 years ago. They were reading about Phoenix and such. They wanted to see how it was going to go. 43:06 – Panel: Try by fire. Coming from Ruby to Elixir – what some advice would you give the same person? 43:37 – Eric: It was less of a culture shock b/c Phoenix was still kind of “Railsy.” 44:35 – Panel: When I was first learning ERLANG, and telling them that it was a standard library. 44:59 – Eric: It’s using Cowboys Ranch. 45:19 – Eric: There are a number of people out there that they want people to run to SSH b/c it’s more secure. 45:46 – Eric: I guess if we are on this topic about secure... 46:40 – Chuck. 46:51 – Panel: I think there is a lot of value, Eric, and the lessons you’ve learned and the path you’ve gone down. If you are new to Elixir going to ExVenture is a great way to start. 47:20 – Eric. 47:35 – Panel: Just run the format and we can do it that way. I encourage people to download it and see what it’s like as a user, and play with it as an admin. We have a Meetup coming up this Thursday. Eric is coming in virtually into our Meetup group. 48:29 – Eric: Gossip is open source. Grapevine and Raisin – check these out, too, b/c they are open source, too. 48:58 – Panel: Where can people contact you? 49:05 – Eric: Twitter! GitHub! Mudcoders.com. 49:39 – Picks! 49:44 – Ad: Lootcrate.com Links: Ruby Elixir Elm Atom.io Flutter.io JavaScript Visual Studio Code React Erlang ExVenture Ex_Venture ExVenture’s Trello Board Prometheus Prometheus EX Gossip GitHub: Gossip 2018 – Conference Talk @ Elixir Conf with Eric Oestrich Eric’s Blog Libcluster Raft – GitHub.io – The Raft Consensus Algorithm pg2 MidMUD Gossip/Haus/Docs ExVenture: Docker Environment Google: Text Adventure Achaea Cowboy SSH Grapevine Raisin ASDF Plugins Eric’s GitHub Eric’s Twitter Brooklyn Nine-Nine Elm Packages MetaBase Sponsors: Loot Crate Get a Coder Job! Fresh Books Cache Fly Picks: Eric MUD Coders Elixir LS Mark ASDF Library Josh Brooklyn Nine-Nine Elm UI Nate Mentoring and Paired Programming Metabase Charles Monster Hunters International

Panel: Mark Ericksen Josh Adams Nate Hopkins Charles Max Wood Special Guest: Eric Oestrich In this episode of Elixir Mix, the panel talks with Eric Oestrich who is a web developer who resides in Indianapolis, Indiana. He and the panel talk about ExVenture, Gossip, Cowboy, Raisin, Grapevine, and much more! Listen to today’s episode to hear all about it! Finally, check out Eric’s ElixirConf talk and his blog, too! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job!  0:51 – Charles introduces the panel. 1:14 – Nate talks about his background. 1:27 – Chuck: My first programming job I worked with Nate. Nate also works now with Eric Berry. We have a special guest and that is Eric Oestrich. Tell us who you are, please! 1:55 – Eric: I work for Smart Logic, LLC. We are a consultancy who has moved to Elixir for the last 2 years. 2:14 – Chuck: Tell us what ExVenture is? 2:46 – Eric: Late 80’s to mid-90’s it’s like a MUD tech space game. Eric goes into detail of what ExVenture is. 3:28 – Panel: Familiar with MUDS. 3:36 – Panel: Audience can’t tell that Eric isn’t an old guy. Eric – you aren’t an old gentleman – how did you get into it?! 4:02 – Eric: The concept has fascinated me. It’s pure game mechanics. In school I wrote things in Python and try to make it threaded. Never got it going. After that I wanted to do a MUD but not good enough in C and couldn’t get it working in Ruby neither. But one faithful day (a year ago) I got an echo and chat server and now we have a MUD. 5:02 – Panel: Why should you be interested? I will tell you why. ExVenture is an open source... I encourage everyone to dig into and play with it! It is a game (so that makes it more fun) but you are dealing with game mechanics. I am also curious where you wanted this to go? What made you say: I want to create this and make it open source? 6:37 – Eric: I like it and work has mostly played for it. It’s MIT because of that. Early in the project (between client work) it was a common thread and that’s why it’s open source. 7:27 – Panel: I ran into you at the conference and you were showing me... Talk about getting metrics out of your system, please? 8:20 – Eric answers the question. 9:09 – Panel: When people are trying to get metrics out of their system – what EVEN makes a good metric? 9:21- Eric: I am trying to figure that out myself, actually. I want to know how long it takes for someone to login? Is that someone trying to hack into my system? If you speak at a global channel or something else... Eric goes into more detail. Eric also mentions Prometheus. 10:31 – Panel: You mentioned: What would you want to see on a dashboard? 11:01 – Eric answers the question and mentions Prometheus EX. 12:19 – Panel: As you starting building this you were pulling libraries out of it and making them separate libraries. Are you pretty proud of GOSSIP? 12:37 – Eric: Yes! Gossip is based on web sockets and it’s a cowboy socket. Eric talks about Gossip. 13:10 – Panel: What other clients are you trying to support? 13:15 – Eric: There is a JavaScript client and Node-based game called... There is a bundle system for that. There is also a Python option. The one thing we haven’t done yet is a C client. That is important b/c most of the games that you could connect to are 25-30 years old. 14:26 – Panel asks a question. 14:34 – Eric: That is the C client we are waiting for. 14:43 – Panel: You talked at the conference (see the show notes) you talked about things you learned along the way. Can you talk about your process? What kind of bottlenecks and how did you resolve those issues? 15:10 – Eric answers the question. 16:44 – Panel: Did you run out of processes? 16:47 – Eric: The VM shut-off – it was just done. That was the first go-around. 19:27 – Eric: After the ElixirConf, I wanted to see how far I could push it. Eric continues. 19:51 – Panel: I want to identify some of these principles you just talked about. First, the major block was the gen server is a single process. 20:21 – Panel. 20:24 – Panel: I think that is a common mistake when people come to Elixir in the beginning stages. How did you solve it? 20:50 – Panelist answers the above question. 21:30 – Panel: That’s one of the big things. It’s an architectural issue. Second, you mentioned really LARGE messages. You were sending around really large messages. 22:20 – Eric: For every 100 players was a gigabyte of ram – it was a lot. And that was mostly b/c every copy...when a new character enters the room then that message gets sent out then it gets copied again, and... 23:08 – Panel. 23:24 – Panel: The third one you mentioned was around data base blocking or...? Can you talk about this one a little more, please? 23:33 – Eric answers the question. 24:02 – Panel. 24:30 – Eric: It was always saving...I tricked Echo into saving...There is a lot of things that could be better to save specifically faster. 24:52 – Panel: I think people would hit those 3 points eventually – there is a lot of value to that. 25:09 –Eric: Yes that was near the end of my ElixirConf talk and my blog. 25:23 – Panel. 25:33 – Eric: It came out in May and I figured out that I needed to learn how to cluster in Elixir. That’s what the ElixirConf was a bout from single node to multiple nodes. Eric continues. 28:38 – Panel: When you have a cluster – and I join – when I transfer from one room to another room, I could be passed off to another server or node? 29:01 – Eric: Whatever you mean by “being passed off.” Whatever server you land on that’s the one you will be on. The magic is that... 30:08 – Advertisement: Fresh Books! 31:15 – Panel: I am going through the code base now and I am excited. It’s going to help me get better at Elixir. 31:32 – Eric: That’s the point of ExVenture. 31:48 – Panel: You host a server so people can see what it’s about – and that’s Mid Mud, right? 32:09 – Eric: Yep, the first hour of you playing. There is a town crier, you request, and then combat monsters. Also, it is plugged into Gossip and you can talk to them. 32:44 – Eric: Yep, there you go: player logged-in! 32:55 – Panel: Maybe not b/c it will turn into a new podcast soon. 33:07 – Panel: What if I want to use Gossip, what is involved there? 33:16 – Eric: Gossip.Haus/docs – Go there! Set it up and start sending and receiving events. 34:40 – Panel: When I was trying to understand the Prometheus metrics it helped. And then in downloading it (as a tip), for me, it was easy to use the DOCKER instructions. 35:32 – Eric: Yep, that was done by a community member. 35:40 – Panel: Are you looking for people to contribute? 35:50 – Eric: Yep, I have a public Trello board. There are 2 tags. 36:12 – Panel: Sounds like you have people involved? 36:22 – Eric: Bunch of people came on after the ElixirConf. 36:33 – Panel: If people download it (another tip) in the SEEDS file you will find out the admin username and password. I guess that’s something you can add. Login: ADMIN and Password: PASSWORD. What I thought was fun (playing with it) in the admin screen I got a sense that it’s generic enough that I could create a space game. Like playing with sectors of space. Does that make sense? 37:42 – Eric: I don’t want it to be tied JUST to fantasy b/c that’s what MUD is. Everything should be good for historical/ fantasy/ etc. any genre that you want to do! 38:13 – Panel: I could see a HackFest and the company could create one for their business. You could have a lot of fun with it. 38:38 – Panel. 38:44 – Panel: Hidden things on their websites. 38:50 – Eric: Search TEXT ADVENTURE in Google Search. See show notes below. 39:24 – Panel: There is a whole subculture that people are interested in and I didn’t know that these people existed. I think that is interesting. 39:45 – Eric: There are tons of games out there that are 20+ years old! 39:55 – Panel: What is your favorite old school MUD game? 40:02 – Eric lists his favorite old school games! One of them is Achaea! 40:51 – Panel: I like the status bars are really cool. If you haven’t played it you have a health bar. Also you have these expiring times and it’s very cool – modern MUD. 41:22 – Eric. 42:00 – Panel: You came from a Ruby background – what was your transition to Elixir like for you? How did you come to Elixir? What was that like for you? 42:15 – Eric: Yeah some of my friends were into Elixir from a functional standpoint about 2 years ago. They were reading about Phoenix and such. They wanted to see how it was going to go. 43:06 – Panel: Try by fire. Coming from Ruby to Elixir – what some advice would you give the same person? 43:37 – Eric: It was less of a culture shock b/c Phoenix was still kind of “Railsy.” 44:35 – Panel: When I was first learning ERLANG, and telling them that it was a standard library. 44:59 – Eric: It’s using Cowboys Ranch. 45:19 – Eric: There are a number of people out there that they want people to run to SSH b/c it’s more secure. 45:46 – Eric: I guess if we are on this topic about secure... 46:40 – Chuck. 46:51 – Panel: I think there is a lot of value, Eric, and the lessons you’ve learned and the path you’ve gone down. If you are new to Elixir going to ExVenture is a great way to start. 47:20 – Eric. 47:35 – Panel: Just run the format and we can do it that way. I encourage people to download it and see what it’s like as a user, and play with it as an admin. We have a Meetup coming up this Thursday. Eric is coming in virtually into our Meetup group. 48:29 – Eric: Gossip is open source. Grapevine and Raisin – check these out, too, b/c they are open source, too. 48:58 – Panel: Where can people contact you? 49:05 – Eric: Twitter! GitHub! Mudcoders.com. 49:39 – Picks! 49:44 – Ad: Lootcrate.com Links: Ruby Elixir Elm Atom.io Flutter.io JavaScript Visual Studio Code React Erlang ExVenture Ex_Venture ExVenture’s Trello Board Prometheus Prometheus EX Gossip GitHub: Gossip 2018 – Conference Talk @ Elixir Conf with Eric Oestrich Eric’s Blog Libcluster Raft – GitHub.io – The Raft Consensus Algorithm pg2 MidMUD Gossip/Haus/Docs ExVenture: Docker Environment Google: Text Adventure Achaea Cowboy SSH Grapevine Raisin ASDF Plugins Eric’s GitHub Eric’s Twitter Brooklyn Nine-Nine Elm Packages MetaBase Sponsors: Loot Crate Get a Coder Job! Fresh Books Cache Fly Picks: Eric MUD Coders Elixir LS Mark ASDF Library Josh Brooklyn Nine-Nine Elm UI Nate Mentoring and Paired Programming Metabase Charles Monster Hunters International

Panel: Charles Max Wood Chris Fritz Erik Hanchett Divya Sasidharan In this episode, the panel talks amongst themselves on the topic: how does one contribute to opensource work? They discuss the various ways that they contribute, such as speaking at conferences, recording videos for YouTube, podcasting, among others. Check-out today’s episode to get some insight and inspiration of how YOU can contribute to YOUR community!  Show Topics: 1:11 – We have decided we haven’t completed this topic 1:23 – Last time we went around the panel and see how we contribute? One of the ways I contribute to opensource is organizing events and conferences. Divya, you write some code – a little bit? 2:05 – Divya. 2:11 – Panelist: Divya, you speak at conferences, write blog posts, and code. Super top-secret project? 2:33 – Divya: I am trying to grow. Maybe I can talk about the secret project later? 2:56 – Panelist: Yes, I contribute through videos and education. I’ve tried in the past seeing issues in opensource, but I find that I am better at teaching. Charles you run a Vue Podcast? 3:29 – Chuck: Yeah, that’s what they say. I work on the podcasts, online conferences, eBooks, and online summits. Lastly, Code Badges that is on Kickstarter. 4:06 – Panelist: How we can contribute to opensource and still make a living. What is free and what we charge for? Finding a balance is important – we covered that last time. How to get into opensource in a variety of ways: How do you start speaking at conferences? How to you write code for opensource? Divya, how do they start? Do you need a public speaking degree? 5:29 – Divya: It might help. To get started with public speaking – it’s deceptively easy but then it’s not at the same time. You submit a proposal to a conference and it’s either accepted or declined. You have to learn how to CRAFT your ideas in a CFP to show the panel that this topic is RELEVANT to the conference and that you are an expert. It’s not the speaking that’s the hard part it’s the writing of the proposal. 7:00 – Panelist: You have talked about CFP – what is that? 7:09 – Divya: It’s a Call For Papers (CFP). It’s just a process of being accepted at a conference. Sometimes conferences have an open call – where they might have a Google form or some software to fill out some details. They will ask for your personal details, a short draft, the title of your talk, and a longer description (why you should be the speaker, etc.). It’s a multi-step process. Even though YOU are the right person to talk about X topic – you don’t have to be – you just have to SOUND like you know what you are talking about. Show that you’ve done your researched, and that you have some understanding. Also, that you are capable of presenting the information at the conference. That’s what I mean by being “THE BEST” person. 9:33- Charles: They aren’t looking always for the expert-level of explaining X topic. Even if it’s at the basic level that’s great. If you can deliver it well then they might pick your proposal. I have spoken at a number of conferences, and I started talking at Meetups. Most organizers are desperate for people to give talks. If you talk at these informal settings – then you get feedback from 10:47 – Divya: Yes, lightning talks are great for that, too. This way you are flushing out what you do and don’t want to talk about. 11:07 – Charles: A lot of people don’t realize that they are good speakers. The way to get better is to do it. I am a member of Toast Masters. You gain experience by talking at many different events. 12:23 – Panelist: I don’t know much about Toast Masters – what is it? 12:29 – Charles: Toast Masters, yes, they collect dues. As you sit in the meeting you have time to give feedback and get feedback. They have a “MM” master, and a grammatical master, and another specialist that they give you feedback. It’s a really constructive and friendly environment. 13:42 – I’ve been to Toast Masters and the meetings are early in the morning. 7:00 or 7:30 AM start time. Everything Chuck just said. I went to a couple and they don’t force you to talk. You can go just to see what it’s about. 14:21 – Charles makes more comments. 14:48 – Meetups is a great way to get into the community, too. What if Toast Masters sounds intimidating, and you don’t think you can speak at a Meetup just, yet. Are there more 15:18 – You can be the town crier. Stand on the soapbox and... 15:32 – There is someone sitting on a soapbox and screaming to a crowd. 15:43 – Chuck: You can do a YouTube video or a podcast, but I think getting the live feedback is super important. Toastmasters are so friendly and I’ve never been in front of a hostile crowd. You get up and they are rooting for you. It’s not as scary as you make it out to be. You aren’t going to ruin your reputation. 16:48 – Local Theater! That helps a lot, to me, because you have lines to read off of the script. You are a character and you get to do whatever you want. Also, teaching really helps. You don’t have to be a professional teacher but there are volunteer areas at a local library or your community centers and libraries. Find opportunities! 18:18 – Divya: Improvisation is good for that, too, back to Chris’ point. Improvisation you don’t have the lines, but it forces you to think on the spot. It helps you practice to think on the spot. 19:04 – Teaching is good for that, too. It makes you think on the spot. You have to respond on the fly. Life teaching is Improvisation. 19:31 – Charles: You learn the patterns that work. 19:57 – Panelist: There are some websites that can track your CFP due dates. You can apply to talk to 5-6 different conferences. You pitch the same idea to 5-6 conferences and you are bound to get picked for at least 1 of those conferences. 20:51 – Divya: There is an account that tweets the CFP due dates that are closing in 1-2 weeks. Check Twitter. 21:25 – Chuck: Take your CFP and have someone else look at it. I know a bunch of conference organizers and ask them for their feedback. 21:48 – Title and description need to be there. 22:48 – Divya: Look at past events to see what was already done in past conferences. This is to see what they are kind of looking for. Divya talks about certain conferences and their past schedules. 23:52 – Eric was saying earlier that you could send in more than 1 proposal. Another one suggests sending in 3 proposals. Someone would love to accept you, but say there is someone else you beats you by a hair. 24:31 – Divya: The CFP process is usually blind and they don’t “see” you until later. Most conferences try to do this so there is no bias. They will ask for no name, but only focusing on content. 25:28 – Sarah May has some great suggestions. Look at the show notes under LINKS. 25:57 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! 26:34 – We have talked about how you submit your proposals. Maybe let’s transition into another topic, like education. Eric – do you have any tips into writing blog posts and such? 27:36 – Eric: Find a topic that you want to learn and/or you are expert on. Going out there and putting out content for something you are learning. If you get something wrong then someone will probably call you out. Like Reddit you might get more criticism then vs. your own blog. I look for topics that interest me. 28:30 – Panelist: How do you get people to see it? 28:40 – Eric: Consistency – sharing on your social media channels. Reddit, Frontend, and/or other sites. I’m doing this for myself (first), and secondary I am teaching other people. 29:23 – Getting feedback from people is great. 29:40 – Eric: It’s a process to build that audience, build quality content, and keep up with it. Facebook groups – hey I put this content out there. Another way you can do it is work with a publisher and try going to a site called PluralSite. 30:47 – Do you have to be famous, like Joe, to get onto their site? 31:09 – Chuck: The audition process I got screwed on. They ask you to record a video, fix anything in the video, and then they will tell you if they will accept your courses or not. 31:37 – People who will distribute your content, there is a screening process. Guest blog, too, will get your name out there. 32:23 – Chuck: You just have to be a level above the reader. 32:37 – Odds are that you can explain it better than someone who learned it 5 years ago. Even if it’s a basic JavaScript thing that you JUST learned, who cares put it out there. If you made X mistake then I’m sure thousands of other developers have made the same mistake. 33:17 – Twitter is a great platform, too. A short and sweet Tweet – show them your main idea and it can get 34:01 – Comments. 34:04 – I use Ghost for my blogging platform. You can start off on Wordpress and others write on Medium. 34:25 – Divya: I like to own my own content so I don’t write on Medium anymore. 34:40 – I like my content on my OWN site. That’s why I haven’t been using Medium anymore. There are more pop-ups and such, too, so that’s why I don’t like it. 35:06 – Divya: If you don’t want to start up your own site, Medium is nice. Other users pick it up, which is an easy way to spread content right away. 37:13 – Chuck: Some of them will pay you for that. 37:23 – Sarah Drasner on the Vue team is an editor of CSS tricks. Good way to get your content out there. 37:48 – Divya: Sarah will work with you. Not only do you get access to put content out there, but then you get feedback from Sarah, too! 38:19 – Remember if you are doing a guest post – make sure to put out solid examples and good content. You want to put time and effort into it, so put more 39:02 – Any more advice on educational content? 39:11 – Chuck: I am always looking for guests for the podcasts and topics. You reach out and say I would like to be a guest on such and such a show. 39:39 – I thought back in the day – oh those podcast hosts are for THOSE famous people. They must have some journalism degree, and here I AM! It apparently is not that bad. 40:19 – Chuck: When I was coding semi-professionally for 1 year and my friend Eric Berry (Teach Me To Code – website) he was looking for someone to record videos for him. I submitted a video and I just walked through how to do basic routing. Basic for Ruby on Rails users, and I said that this is my first video. I tweeted that information. Screen Flow reached out to me because I mentioned their name, and I got a license and a microphone to help me record my videos! That gave me the confidence to start podcasting. It’s scary and I’m thinking I will screw this up, I don’t have professional equipment, and look at me now! 42:46 – To be a podcast host it isn’t much. 42:55 – Chuck: I am trying to make podcasting easier. The hard part is preparing the content, get it edited, getting it posted. It’s all the other stuff. Recording and talking isn’t that bad. 43:28 – What are my steps if I want to start a new podcast? 43:39 – What microphone should I get? 43:48 - $100-$130 is the Yeti microphone. Do I need a professional microphone? People can’t tell when guests talk on their iPhone microphone or not. Especially if you already have those then you won’t be out if you don’t want to continue with podcasting. Record for free with Audacity. Have something to talk about and somewhere to post it. 45:01 – Panelist asks Chuck more questions. 45:13 – Divya. 45:29 – It’s easier if everyone is in the same room. If the sound quality is good enough then people will stay, but if the quality is poor then people will go away. I recommend Wordpress - it’s super easy. You can host on Amazon, but if you will host long-term then use Libsyn or Blubrry. Great platforms will cost you less then some others. 46:58 – iTunes? 47:04 – Podcast through iTunes you just give them a RSS feed. All you do is fill out some forms. Submit that and it will run – same for Google Play. You might want to get some artwork. In the beginning for me I got a stock image – edited it – and that was it. One I got one of my headshots and put the title on there. 48:06 – Then when people will hear this... 48:23 – Summary: microphone, content, set up WordPress, submit it to iTunes, and record frequently. Keep improving. 48:46 – Anything you are doing anything online – make sure your mantra is “this is good enough.” If you spend tons of hours trying to perfect it – you might drive yourself crazy. 49:18 – Not everyone will enjoy podcasting or YouTubing – so make sure you don’t invest a lot of money at first to see where you are. 50:06 – Educational content topic continued. Contributing to coder depositories. What’s the best way to get into that? 50:28 – Chuck: Some will say: This one is good for a newbie to tackle. You just reach out – don’t just pick it up and tackle it – I would reach out to the person first. Understand what they need and then work on it, because they might have 2 other people working on it. 51:11 – Divya: Hacktoberfest – Digital Ocean – they publish opensource projects. 52:22 – Yeah check it out because you can get a free t-shirt! 53:50 – Chuck: Doing the work that the hotshots don’t want to do. It helps everyone out, but it might not be the most glamorous job.  55:11 – Spelling mistakes – scan the code base. 55:43 – Divya: If you do small contributions that people DON’T want to do – then these contributors will see you and you will be on their radar. You start building a relationship. Eventually people will start giving you more responsibilities, etc. 56:59 – Chuck: I have seen people been contributors through Ruby on Rails. They got the gig because the core team sees your previous work is reliable and good work. 57:26 – Is there a core contributor guideline? 57:37 – Good question. If Divya likes you then you are in. 57:47 – It’s Evan who makes those decisions, but we are working on a formal guideline. 58:52 – Will they kick you out? 59:00 – Unless they were doing bad stuff that means pain for other people you won’t get kicked out. 59:33 – Representing Vue to some degree, too. The people who are representing Vue are apart of it. We are trying to get a better answer for it, so it’s complicated, but working on it. 1:00:02 – How did you get on the team? Well, I was contributing code, I was discussing ways to better x, y, and z. Evan invited me to come into the core team. Basically he did it so he wouldn’t have to keep babysitting us. 1:01:06 – Chuck. 1:01:20 – Panelist. 1:01:48 – Panelist: One of our core team members got his job because he was answering questions from the community. He is not a software developer by training, but his background is a business analyst. You don’t have to contribute a ton of code. He was a guest so check out the past episode. See show notes for links. 1:03:05 – Chuck: We need to go to picks and I think that topic would be great for Joe! 1:03:24 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! Links: Vue React Angular JavaScript DevChat TV GitHub Meetup Ghost.Org Miriam Suzanne’s Twitter Sarah Mei’s Article: What Your Conference Proposal is Missing WordPress Sarah Drasner’s Twitter CSS Tricks Netlify Sponsors: Get A Coder Job! Cache Fly Kendo UI Picks: Eric Headless CMS Dyvia Blogspot - Building a 3D iDesigner with Vue.js The Twitch Streamers Who Spend Years Broadcasting to No One Chris Cat Content Twitter Account https://www.patreon.com/akryum The Great British Baking Show Charles Embrace the Struggle SoftCover.io getacoderjob.com swag.devchat.tv

Panel: Charles Max Wood Chris Fritz Erik Hanchett Divya Sasidharan In this episode, the panel talks amongst themselves on the topic: how does one contribute to opensource work? They discuss the various ways that they contribute, such as speaking at conferences, recording videos for YouTube, podcasting, among others. Check-out today’s episode to get some insight and inspiration of how YOU can contribute to YOUR community!  Show Topics: 1:11 – We have decided we haven’t completed this topic 1:23 – Last time we went around the panel and see how we contribute? One of the ways I contribute to opensource is organizing events and conferences. Divya, you write some code – a little bit? 2:05 – Divya. 2:11 – Panelist: Divya, you speak at conferences, write blog posts, and code. Super top-secret project? 2:33 – Divya: I am trying to grow. Maybe I can talk about the secret project later? 2:56 – Panelist: Yes, I contribute through videos and education. I’ve tried in the past seeing issues in opensource, but I find that I am better at teaching. Charles you run a Vue Podcast? 3:29 – Chuck: Yeah, that’s what they say. I work on the podcasts, online conferences, eBooks, and online summits. Lastly, Code Badges that is on Kickstarter. 4:06 – Panelist: How we can contribute to opensource and still make a living. What is free and what we charge for? Finding a balance is important – we covered that last time. How to get into opensource in a variety of ways: How do you start speaking at conferences? How to you write code for opensource? Divya, how do they start? Do you need a public speaking degree? 5:29 – Divya: It might help. To get started with public speaking – it’s deceptively easy but then it’s not at the same time. You submit a proposal to a conference and it’s either accepted or declined. You have to learn how to CRAFT your ideas in a CFP to show the panel that this topic is RELEVANT to the conference and that you are an expert. It’s not the speaking that’s the hard part it’s the writing of the proposal. 7:00 – Panelist: You have talked about CFP – what is that? 7:09 – Divya: It’s a Call For Papers (CFP). It’s just a process of being accepted at a conference. Sometimes conferences have an open call – where they might have a Google form or some software to fill out some details. They will ask for your personal details, a short draft, the title of your talk, and a longer description (why you should be the speaker, etc.). It’s a multi-step process. Even though YOU are the right person to talk about X topic – you don’t have to be – you just have to SOUND like you know what you are talking about. Show that you’ve done your researched, and that you have some understanding. Also, that you are capable of presenting the information at the conference. That’s what I mean by being “THE BEST” person. 9:33- Charles: They aren’t looking always for the expert-level of explaining X topic. Even if it’s at the basic level that’s great. If you can deliver it well then they might pick your proposal. I have spoken at a number of conferences, and I started talking at Meetups. Most organizers are desperate for people to give talks. If you talk at these informal settings – then you get feedback from 10:47 – Divya: Yes, lightning talks are great for that, too. This way you are flushing out what you do and don’t want to talk about. 11:07 – Charles: A lot of people don’t realize that they are good speakers. The way to get better is to do it. I am a member of Toast Masters. You gain experience by talking at many different events. 12:23 – Panelist: I don’t know much about Toast Masters – what is it? 12:29 – Charles: Toast Masters, yes, they collect dues. As you sit in the meeting you have time to give feedback and get feedback. They have a “MM” master, and a grammatical master, and another specialist that they give you feedback. It’s a really constructive and friendly environment. 13:42 – I’ve been to Toast Masters and the meetings are early in the morning. 7:00 or 7:30 AM start time. Everything Chuck just said. I went to a couple and they don’t force you to talk. You can go just to see what it’s about. 14:21 – Charles makes more comments. 14:48 – Meetups is a great way to get into the community, too. What if Toast Masters sounds intimidating, and you don’t think you can speak at a Meetup just, yet. Are there more 15:18 – You can be the town crier. Stand on the soapbox and... 15:32 – There is someone sitting on a soapbox and screaming to a crowd. 15:43 – Chuck: You can do a YouTube video or a podcast, but I think getting the live feedback is super important. Toastmasters are so friendly and I’ve never been in front of a hostile crowd. You get up and they are rooting for you. It’s not as scary as you make it out to be. You aren’t going to ruin your reputation. 16:48 – Local Theater! That helps a lot, to me, because you have lines to read off of the script. You are a character and you get to do whatever you want. Also, teaching really helps. You don’t have to be a professional teacher but there are volunteer areas at a local library or your community centers and libraries. Find opportunities! 18:18 – Divya: Improvisation is good for that, too, back to Chris’ point. Improvisation you don’t have the lines, but it forces you to think on the spot. It helps you practice to think on the spot. 19:04 – Teaching is good for that, too. It makes you think on the spot. You have to respond on the fly. Life teaching is Improvisation. 19:31 – Charles: You learn the patterns that work. 19:57 – Panelist: There are some websites that can track your CFP due dates. You can apply to talk to 5-6 different conferences. You pitch the same idea to 5-6 conferences and you are bound to get picked for at least 1 of those conferences. 20:51 – Divya: There is an account that tweets the CFP due dates that are closing in 1-2 weeks. Check Twitter. 21:25 – Chuck: Take your CFP and have someone else look at it. I know a bunch of conference organizers and ask them for their feedback. 21:48 – Title and description need to be there. 22:48 – Divya: Look at past events to see what was already done in past conferences. This is to see what they are kind of looking for. Divya talks about certain conferences and their past schedules. 23:52 – Eric was saying earlier that you could send in more than 1 proposal. Another one suggests sending in 3 proposals. Someone would love to accept you, but say there is someone else you beats you by a hair. 24:31 – Divya: The CFP process is usually blind and they don’t “see” you until later. Most conferences try to do this so there is no bias. They will ask for no name, but only focusing on content. 25:28 – Sarah May has some great suggestions. Look at the show notes under LINKS. 25:57 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! 26:34 – We have talked about how you submit your proposals. Maybe let’s transition into another topic, like education. Eric – do you have any tips into writing blog posts and such? 27:36 – Eric: Find a topic that you want to learn and/or you are expert on. Going out there and putting out content for something you are learning. If you get something wrong then someone will probably call you out. Like Reddit you might get more criticism then vs. your own blog. I look for topics that interest me. 28:30 – Panelist: How do you get people to see it? 28:40 – Eric: Consistency – sharing on your social media channels. Reddit, Frontend, and/or other sites. I’m doing this for myself (first), and secondary I am teaching other people. 29:23 – Getting feedback from people is great. 29:40 – Eric: It’s a process to build that audience, build quality content, and keep up with it. Facebook groups – hey I put this content out there. Another way you can do it is work with a publisher and try going to a site called PluralSite. 30:47 – Do you have to be famous, like Joe, to get onto their site? 31:09 – Chuck: The audition process I got screwed on. They ask you to record a video, fix anything in the video, and then they will tell you if they will accept your courses or not. 31:37 – People who will distribute your content, there is a screening process. Guest blog, too, will get your name out there. 32:23 – Chuck: You just have to be a level above the reader. 32:37 – Odds are that you can explain it better than someone who learned it 5 years ago. Even if it’s a basic JavaScript thing that you JUST learned, who cares put it out there. If you made X mistake then I’m sure thousands of other developers have made the same mistake. 33:17 – Twitter is a great platform, too. A short and sweet Tweet – show them your main idea and it can get 34:01 – Comments. 34:04 – I use Ghost for my blogging platform. You can start off on Wordpress and others write on Medium. 34:25 – Divya: I like to own my own content so I don’t write on Medium anymore. 34:40 – I like my content on my OWN site. That’s why I haven’t been using Medium anymore. There are more pop-ups and such, too, so that’s why I don’t like it. 35:06 – Divya: If you don’t want to start up your own site, Medium is nice. Other users pick it up, which is an easy way to spread content right away. 37:13 – Chuck: Some of them will pay you for that. 37:23 – Sarah Drasner on the Vue team is an editor of CSS tricks. Good way to get your content out there. 37:48 – Divya: Sarah will work with you. Not only do you get access to put content out there, but then you get feedback from Sarah, too! 38:19 – Remember if you are doing a guest post – make sure to put out solid examples and good content. You want to put time and effort into it, so put more 39:02 – Any more advice on educational content? 39:11 – Chuck: I am always looking for guests for the podcasts and topics. You reach out and say I would like to be a guest on such and such a show. 39:39 – I thought back in the day – oh those podcast hosts are for THOSE famous people. They must have some journalism degree, and here I AM! It apparently is not that bad. 40:19 – Chuck: When I was coding semi-professionally for 1 year and my friend Eric Berry (Teach Me To Code – website) he was looking for someone to record videos for him. I submitted a video and I just walked through how to do basic routing. Basic for Ruby on Rails users, and I said that this is my first video. I tweeted that information. Screen Flow reached out to me because I mentioned their name, and I got a license and a microphone to help me record my videos! That gave me the confidence to start podcasting. It’s scary and I’m thinking I will screw this up, I don’t have professional equipment, and look at me now! 42:46 – To be a podcast host it isn’t much. 42:55 – Chuck: I am trying to make podcasting easier. The hard part is preparing the content, get it edited, getting it posted. It’s all the other stuff. Recording and talking isn’t that bad. 43:28 – What are my steps if I want to start a new podcast? 43:39 – What microphone should I get? 43:48 - $100-$130 is the Yeti microphone. Do I need a professional microphone? People can’t tell when guests talk on their iPhone microphone or not. Especially if you already have those then you won’t be out if you don’t want to continue with podcasting. Record for free with Audacity. Have something to talk about and somewhere to post it. 45:01 – Panelist asks Chuck more questions. 45:13 – Divya. 45:29 – It’s easier if everyone is in the same room. If the sound quality is good enough then people will stay, but if the quality is poor then people will go away. I recommend Wordpress - it’s super easy. You can host on Amazon, but if you will host long-term then use Libsyn or Blubrry. Great platforms will cost you less then some others. 46:58 – iTunes? 47:04 – Podcast through iTunes you just give them a RSS feed. All you do is fill out some forms. Submit that and it will run – same for Google Play. You might want to get some artwork. In the beginning for me I got a stock image – edited it – and that was it. One I got one of my headshots and put the title on there. 48:06 – Then when people will hear this... 48:23 – Summary: microphone, content, set up WordPress, submit it to iTunes, and record frequently. Keep improving. 48:46 – Anything you are doing anything online – make sure your mantra is “this is good enough.” If you spend tons of hours trying to perfect it – you might drive yourself crazy. 49:18 – Not everyone will enjoy podcasting or YouTubing – so make sure you don’t invest a lot of money at first to see where you are. 50:06 – Educational content topic continued. Contributing to coder depositories. What’s the best way to get into that? 50:28 – Chuck: Some will say: This one is good for a newbie to tackle. You just reach out – don’t just pick it up and tackle it – I would reach out to the person first. Understand what they need and then work on it, because they might have 2 other people working on it. 51:11 – Divya: Hacktoberfest – Digital Ocean – they publish opensource projects. 52:22 – Yeah check it out because you can get a free t-shirt! 53:50 – Chuck: Doing the work that the hotshots don’t want to do. It helps everyone out, but it might not be the most glamorous job.  55:11 – Spelling mistakes – scan the code base. 55:43 – Divya: If you do small contributions that people DON’T want to do – then these contributors will see you and you will be on their radar. You start building a relationship. Eventually people will start giving you more responsibilities, etc. 56:59 – Chuck: I have seen people been contributors through Ruby on Rails. They got the gig because the core team sees your previous work is reliable and good work. 57:26 – Is there a core contributor guideline? 57:37 – Good question. If Divya likes you then you are in. 57:47 – It’s Evan who makes those decisions, but we are working on a formal guideline. 58:52 – Will they kick you out? 59:00 – Unless they were doing bad stuff that means pain for other people you won’t get kicked out. 59:33 – Representing Vue to some degree, too. The people who are representing Vue are apart of it. We are trying to get a better answer for it, so it’s complicated, but working on it. 1:00:02 – How did you get on the team? Well, I was contributing code, I was discussing ways to better x, y, and z. Evan invited me to come into the core team. Basically he did it so he wouldn’t have to keep babysitting us. 1:01:06 – Chuck. 1:01:20 – Panelist. 1:01:48 – Panelist: One of our core team members got his job because he was answering questions from the community. He is not a software developer by training, but his background is a business analyst. You don’t have to contribute a ton of code. He was a guest so check out the past episode. See show notes for links. 1:03:05 – Chuck: We need to go to picks and I think that topic would be great for Joe! 1:03:24 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! Links: Vue React Angular JavaScript DevChat TV GitHub Meetup Ghost.Org Miriam Suzanne’s Twitter Sarah Mei’s Article: What Your Conference Proposal is Missing WordPress Sarah Drasner’s Twitter CSS Tricks Netlify Sponsors: Get A Coder Job! Cache Fly Kendo UI Picks: Eric Headless CMS Dyvia Blogspot - Building a 3D iDesigner with Vue.js The Twitch Streamers Who Spend Years Broadcasting to No One Chris Cat Content Twitter Account https://www.patreon.com/akryum The Great British Baking Show Charles Embrace the Struggle SoftCover.io getacoderjob.com swag.devchat.tv

Join QuantumDigital’s CMO Eric Cosway as he interviews Alex Bruno, owner of RE/MAX 5-Star Realty in Florida. Alex is a top producer who also works with banks, including Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Alex is HUD-certified, and has a strong network of home buyers and investors.   Eric: Alex, welcome to the podcast.   Alex: Hello. How are you doing?   Eric: So, it sounds like RE/MAX 5-Star has been around since 2016. What led you to want to start the business, or create a franchise for yourself?   Alex: Actually, over the years, I thought it was important based on the experience that I got in real estate. I wanted to have an office with a little bit of a different perspective, and being a buyer’s and listing agent for many years, I understand how difficult it is to be an agent. I wanted to facilitate the tools and the support for the agents the way that I would like to have it myself. I wanted to be able to answer their questions, and at the same time provide the tools that they need. I didn’t want to be the office that was open for 30-40 years. Things change over the years. The real estate market changed. The real estate agent’s needs changed. The buyers changed. Everything is completely different. And more and more the market keeps changing every year. We need to make adjustments constantly.   Eric: Is your primary focus on buyers in Hollywood, Florida? Or do you do both buyers and sellers?   Alex: I work with buyers and sellers, and I work on South Florida, not just only on Hollywood. From Miami Beach to Pompano Beach, we are open to working with different cities.   Eric: Was that area impacted by the hurricane this past summer? Last couple of months?   Alex: Absolutely. Yes. And we’re still seeing the damages around.   Eric: How did that impact you? You’re right there in the center of it. You have a staff. Not only were you affected, but I’m sure the business was impacted as well.   Alex: First of all, it’s something that is out of our control. We need to take it the way it is, and try to make the best of it. So, we need to just continue life because it was definitely a huge impact for real estate, and also properties they were supposed to close. They have to be re-inspected again, and appraised again. Some of the sales fall apart, but we need to continue. When the market crashed in 2007, life continued. And you have to keep going. And there were always buyers. We were a little spoiled, some of the agent. Deals were so easy, then they were no longer that easy. We need to work harder. But everything is possible, and we need to adapt to the times.   Eric: You came into the real estate business in 2007. How was that first year for you as a Realtor?   Alex: It was a little sad. A lot of people were very depressed. It was like the end of the world. It was a commotion—many people taking time off, going away. Other ones struggling to figure out how to react to these major changes. And I personally think it was easier for me because I was not that spoiled. I was new. So, I figured out there are always buyers. People are going to keep buying homes and selling homes. This is not the end of the world. Maybe the end of a good market, but there were always FHA buyers. Much better buyers than before. Real buyers that can afford these houses. Because, after the market crashed, lenders were more conscious about the capability of a buyer to purchase a home. You keep going, and you have to adapt to the situation.   Eric: Is there something specific about a buyer that you’ve learned—the one or two things a buyer always needs that you just know what to do, and just handle a buyer so they’re fully happy and satisfied with all the work you do?   Alex: One of the most important is to listen to them, and try to build in your mind and try to understand what the needs are for they buyer. Try to put time into that buyer to show them that you want to work with them. Because it’s a very competitive market. Here in Florida, a lot of people have real estate licenses. So, everybody knows a friend, or a neighbor, or a coworker that has a real estate license. But, not everyone is dedicated to this career. A lot of people think it’s easy, but it’s not that easy. What you need to do is just listen to the buyer, and try to work on what they are asking. And be available. That is one of the most important things; build a criteria for the buyer, and try to work on finding what they are looking for.   Eric: I read your customer reviews, and I have to tell you, they’re excellent. Here are the common terms when people talked about you. They said you were responsive. Always calls back. Knowledgeable. Trustworthy. Honest. Knows the area extremely well. Is available 24/7. So, does that surprise you, or is that just who you are—your DNA?   Alex: It’s who I try to be all the time for my clients. I think it’s important for all these points to be met—to have a happy client, and to eventually get more referrals and more business. To be dedicated for this job.   Eric: Tell me about the dedication in this job. You have a team of 8 people, is that correct?   Alex: Approximately, yes. With the photographers, yeah.   Eric: Are you active 7 days a week being a team lead, or can you now delegate some of those responsibilities off?   Alex: I delegate, but as a team leader you have to keep pushing to make sure that you keep the standards.   Eric: WHen it’s really tough, what do you tell your team? How do you motivate your team to keep moving?   Alex: There are many sources, and some of the sources we learn from the old school. You have to go back to what used to work before, in order to add what works now. In order to get buyer’s and seller’s business—even in the tough times—you have to do a hundred things. It’s not like one thing is going to give you the business. If you have multiple options, most likely you’re going to have better results. Prospectings, For Sale By Owners, campaigns, expired campaigns… those are the old school. Open Houses—a lot of people don’t believe in open houses. Some people don’t believe in broker’s Open Houses. You have to try everything. And believe me you have more chances, you’re going to succeed with better results.   Eric: Sounds like technology has impacted your business. Has it made things easier for you? Has it given better exposure to your buyers and sellers? How do you leverage technology as a broker?   Alex: Technology makes smarter buyers. The buyers know how to look. And it makes it more risky for the agents, because you get a chance of losing a buyer going directly with a listing agent, or going a different route with another agent. The information is more available. You just Google the address, and you can get all the information regarding that property. It definitely helps us also to be able to locate a property the buyer is asking for immediately through our phones. But at the same time, we need to keep the quality of the work going, to keep that buyer, being more proactive about finding what they’re looking for. Because they buyer will be looking for those properties, too. So, you’re working with a buyer… a smarter buyer.   Eric: Now that there’s so much content available to buyers to be smart buyers, has that forced your game and your agents games up to be even more on top of the market than you might normally be?   Alex: I don’t think so. It’s just that we need to adapt to the changes and grow with the changes.   Eric: Are you a team that adopts new technology? Or are you a tad more service, belly-to-belly, a little more old fashioned in the way you approach your buyers and sellers?   Alex: It’s a bunch of things together, and we have to keep moving forward with technology, and adopting new trends, new programs, new marketing—different types of marketing that probably didn’t exist 10 years ago—and try to be creative for your business. That way, you can stand in the market as an agent.   Eric: You mentioned your referrals. Is that mainly how you drive business today?   Alex: Referrals are very important. And also, if you work for an international company, your exposure is even more. But referrals is one of the things that really helps your business. It’s on the top of the list, definitely.   Eric: There are obviously some benefits being a franchise, but in your market what are the big 2 or 3 benefits of having that RE/MAX brand behind you?   Alex: When I was exploring the possibility of buying a franchise, I met with multiple companies. And the RE/MAX platform was clean and easy for the agent. And at the same time—one of the most important things for me, especially referrals—is seeing how big it is. In 100 countries, plus. And have 110,000 agents around the world. That makes you feel safe. It’s a company that keeps growing, that gives you the tools to be successful. And that is exactly what I was looking for. I was not looking about quantity of agents per square feet. Everybody has different perspectives of somebody who opens a franchise. I think that those were very important points to make a decision to continue being part of RE/MAX.   Eric: Let’s change course a little bit. You have a background in interior design. You’re from Uruguay. Tell us about how interior design informs you, or helps you in your career in real estate.   Alex: I didn’t finish the career on interior design, so I didn’t get a license for it. But, it definitely helped me to help sellers, or give them advice on how to present the home to be sold faster, for more money. Seeing, from a different perspective, the home from the buyer’s side, and being able to tell just the sellers what they should do to accomplish that.   Eric: It sounds like a really complementary skill to what you’re doing day to day.   Alex: Honestly, I love my job. And I definitely put my heart on every transaction. It doesn’t matter how much the sales price is. Every transaction means a lot for me. The important thing is to make it happen, and have a good presentation, a good description of the property. You need to put a little bit of your heart on every property that you list. Going the extra mile for the client.   Eric: Well, you’re definitely passionate about your career. What would be the other things you’re passionate about?   Alex: My family, honestly. It’s the most important thing in my life. And also my country—even though I was born in Uruguay—I have the American dream, and I love this country. I’m proud of being an American citizen. And my career.   Eric: Alex, what a pleasure speaking with you today. I know being a team lead, and being a broker with all the responsibilities, your time is very limited so it’s precious. I want to to thank you for your time. I hope you found it informative. We certainly did.   Alex: Absolutely. And I want to help other agents who don’t see the light sometimes of this business. And a lot of people who feel limited, because maybe they are foreign people, or they feel different… this is a job where you can can shine. And not because you’re pretty, or you drive a nice car. You can shine for talent.   Eric: Congratulations! You’ve done a very nice job. Alex: Thank you!

Violence and Maternity. Inside and something else. Eric: It’s ok, you’re in a safe place. This is Double Feature. Michael: Is our show fairly traded? Eric: And uh…oh, I remember that. That’s good, that’s a good…Michael: Thank you. Thanks. Eric: … Continue reading →

This week, I talk to filmmaker Eric Green about the release of his documentary on the mid-'80s Boston music channel V66. Show notes: - We last spoke in 2012, when Eric was still working on Life on the V - Previously appeared in episodes 231 and 232 - Movie's now out on DVD and in film festivals - In 1985, MTV was still growing and smaller music video shows were on - Two Boston radio veterans wanted V66 to be like a radio station - Audiences who are unfamiliar with V66 have enjoyed the movie - Long post-production process - Cast and crew screening was in early 2014 - Founder John Garabedian quickly realized V66 couldn't just show videos - Needed other programming to keep viewers - Added wrestling, sports and lifestyle shows - Original cut of movie was 2 hours - Connecting to the Boston community - Good response at festivals - Developing other projects - Great time for music documentaries - Eric: It's as much a business story as a music story   Completely Conspicuous is available through the iTunes podcast directory. Subscribe and write a review!   The opening and closing theme of Completely Conspicuous is "Theme to Big F'in Pants" by Jay Breitling. Find out more about Senor Breitling at his fine music blog Clicky Clicky. Voiceover work is courtesy of James Gralian.

In this brand-new episode of the Sales Funnel Mastery podcast, I am interviewed by Eric Barton. I guarantee this is one of the most value-packed interviews you've ever listened to. Here are a few things we discussed...1) Why most people talking about conversion rates aren't telling you the WHOLE truth...2) 3 quick and easy ways to increase retention rates...3) How to increase price and skyrocket net profits without dropping conversions...4) A current split-test I'm running which you've NEVER heard of (but must try!)...5) And tons more!After listening, head on over to http://www.JeremyReeves.com   Transcript: Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Sales Funnel Mastery podcast. I hope you’re loving what you’re getting so far. I have a ton more content coming up for you. I wrote out the other day about sixty different ideas. That’s not even including interviews, which I’m going to try to do about once every two weeks or so. For this podcast, I have something a little bit different for you. In fact, this is the actually the first interview, except the difference is I’m not going to be interviewing somebody else. I’m going to be giving you an interview that somebody did for me. I’m going be getting interviewed. It was an interview from Eric Barton, from Fast Easy Success. When we talked, we went over a lot of really, really good marketing stuff; including a conversion split test that I’m currently running. It’s still running right now, but I guarantee you it’s something you’ve never heard before. It’s definitely something you want to try because as of right now, it’s winning by about 50 percent over my control. You’ll see in this interview that the percent doesn’t really matter, but it’s winning right now. I think the comp was about 92 percent. Here is that episode. I hope you really enjoy it. Let me know what you think. Eric: Welcome to episode ten of the Fast Easy Success Marketing Insider podcast. I want to thank everyone for tuning into the Fast Easy Success Marketing Insider. A lot of exciting things coming today and in the future for you. Make sure you hit that subscription button right now, so you don’t miss out on the value-packed podcast coming your way as well. Before we dive into our show and our very special guest today, I just want to welcome everyone to head over to fasteasysuccess.com. Go ahead and grab your business building tips sent directly to your email daily. When you head over to fasteasysuccess.com, I’m also giving you your free business cheat sheets. This is going to help you with your websites, emails and writing. Let’s dive in because I’m excited to have this special guest coming on the show today. If you haven’t discovered this man yet, you’re definitely in for a treat today. He’s a direct response copywriter who actually specializes in building very profitable sales funnels for clients. You may even have heard this man referred to as the sales funnel specialist, and really the world’s number one most trust sales funnel authority. Ladies and gentlemen, joining us today, I want to welcome to the show, Jeremy Reeves. Jeremy, thanks so much for taking the time to jam with us today. Jeremy: Thanks for having me. I’m really, really excited. I used to get a little nervous getting interviewed, but I’m actually very pumped to be talking to you. Eric: Beautiful. That’s what I like to hear. I’m sure the audience is definitely, they got their ticket to this profitable thrill ride and ready to jump in. Let’s just ask real quick, for the people who are not familiar with you, can you originally tell people how you started out in the sales marketing or copywriting world or how you really go involved? Jeremy: One thing I want to say, just as everybody is listening at the beginning of the interview, I’ve listened to a lot of interviews. I listen to a whole bunch of podcasts and all that kind of stuff. Personally, I have never been a huge fan of interviews because a lot of people take too long to tell their stories and don’t really give a lot of good advice, just in general. I did want to throw out there that I am really going to give out a lot of really, really good content. It’s not going to be all about me. I’ll give you my quick little story here for about 30 seconds, but then I’d like to just jump in. I like to demonstrate my authority by demonstrating that I actually know what I’m talking about, instead of telling my story. I just wanted to throw that out there in the beginning. I like to do unique interviews. Eric: Nice. Jeremy: For my short little blurb here, I got started as a direct response copywriter, writing sales copy for clients. Right at the beginning of my career with that, which was about, roughly seven years ago, I realized that writing, understanding the dynamics of writing copy and being able to sell on paper and all that good stuff really doesn’t do much if the strategy behind the copy isn’t right. I really started focusing a lot on the marketing strategy and how to write the copy to fit that strategy. If you have bad strategy with a great copy, it’ll do okay; but if you have incredible strategy and okay copy, it can still do fantastic. The strategy really compels it. When you add the really good, hard-hitting copy on top of it, that’s when things really take off. I really started focusing on the marketing strategy behind the copy and that led me down, through working with all kinds of different clients, a lot of the industry leaders that you’re probably familiar with. It really made me specialize and focus on building sales funnels, because I realized a lot of the challenges that people deal with have to do with not having systems in place and not having—basically, not being able to buy paid traffic; which is one thing I really, really focus on. When you have an automated sales funnel in place, you can pretty much look at your sales funnel as a whole and see, I got 1,000 people that hit the first part of the sales funnel. By the time they got to the end, I made X dollars. You know what each person is worth or your earnings per visitor. That way you know what you can pay for traffic. If your average earnings per visitor, for each person that you send to a landing page, for example, the first part of the funnel, if that’s $5, then you know you can pay $2, $3 or $4, whatever you want to keep your margin at, to get new people into the funnel. It really makes your business really, really stable. Then you keep tweaking and testing and making everybody worth more money. That’s where all the fun comes in. That’s pretty much my history. Basically, started as a copywriter, went into strategy. I worked with all kinds of different business owners from internet marketers to a couple celebrities and really high name, high profile clients; to even all the way on the other side of the coin, to people like, dry cleaners and hair dressers and people like that. A pretty big gamut of people that I’ve worked with. Eric: Right. That’s what I was saying, it works with a lot of online and as well as offline. It works with the large and the small businesses. One thing I wanted to ask, it’s been the theme the show, I’m going to ask it in the beginning, because I think if they set up in the beginning, it’s going to help. This goes into what you were talking about, the paid traffic. Really what I’m referring to is the un-sexy sales secret, which is what I call it, is lead generation. I think, unfortunately, this is a point that a lot of business owners get wrong. A lot of people mix up with lead generation with customer generation. A lot of times they want customers instead of leads. Leads are something that you nurture. You can grab the low hanging fruit, obviously, but it’s something you have to build. Can you share your thoughts or what’s your view on the lead generation part of whether they’re starting a funnel or just bringing them to a sales page or website et cetera? Jeremy: Yeah. There’s a lot to go into on that. I’ll just take when I’m working with clients, I’ll go off of that. One of the things that I try to do, a lot of people talk about cost per lead and things like that. That’s good … Eric: Bad? Jeremy: No, it’s definitely good to know and I track that metric and all that, but there’s a big difference in the quality of leads. Let’s just say you have Facebook ads, Google ads and SEO, you’re doing those three things. You might have leads that are worth, let’s say your average lead on Google AdWords is worth $3. It might be worth only $1 on Facebook and $6 for SEO. You really have to look at, I’m getting this amount of leads from this source, but what are they worth to the business? Because everything, the leads coming in, they all have different values. Eric: That’s a great point. I think that’s what a lot of people mix up too. They’re getting in a lot of leads, and they’re like, yeah, I’m doing good. But how much is that lead actually worth, like you just said. That’s a great point. Jeremy: Exactly. You could even dive in more. For example, I have Facebook campaign that I’m running right now. We tag them as Facebook leads and I can track it overall and look at it every month and say, we’ve got 1,000 leads this month and we made $3,000 from that. We spent $1,500, whatever the numbers are. If you want to even take it to another level, you can tag them by the audience that you’re targeting. For example, let’s just say you’re in health and you’re targeting men, 50 plus, and then another group is women, 30 plus, whatever. It could be anything that you’re targeting. You can actually tag them as that, and then track those specific things; so you know, not only do you know how much your average Facebook lead is worth, but you could also say, I have these two segments that we’re targeting. This one is worth this much; this one is worth this much. You can get pretty crazy with the metrics. I usually recommend that for people that are really advanced and trying to take it to a completely new level and gains a huge competitive advantage. That particular one is more for people that are a lot more advanced. Eric: It’s a little more work. It’s more profitable, but it is more work. If it’s something that competition isn’t really willing to do, that’s a good thing for people in our world. This can go into the testing, too, because that’s something that you’re definitely known for is heavy testing. Do you do the simple split, like A, B, split test or really how do you start your test? What’s the best way you start testing where people can do that? Jeremy: That’s a good question. I get extremely mad at a lot of people in the conversion rate optimization field. That was one thing that probably last year, it might have even been 2012. In the last two years, I was really heavily involved in that. I got offered a really healthy, six figure offer by one of the biggest conversion rate optimization companies in the world and turned that down. I’m still really friends with them. I just don’t want a job. There’s so much I can go into here. There’s a lot of things that you need to look out for when you test. One of the things you’ll hear—and I’m not going to give out any names here, because I don’t like to make enemies. A lot of people when they say, “We got an 80 percent increase doing this.” “We got a 60 percent increase doing that.” If you look at the actual stats and sometimes they’ll show you in a video, they’ll show you a screen shot of their stats and all that. A lot of times you’ll notice that the numbers are really small. Maybe they hit 95 percent confidence. If you’re familiar with testing, you’ll know what I mean, but it’s essentially 95 percent chance of that test being a winner. It doesn’t mean that you have a 95 percent chance of that test winning by that percentage. For example, let me pull up a test I have running right now for a Facebook campaign. It’s running to a landing page. The one call to action on there is “give me my free report.” It’s the control, call to action. The one I’m testing it against is “show me your sales funnel secrets.” That’s the A, B test. They get split up. Eric: Sure. Jeremy: Let me go to my results. It just became a winner this morning. The control, which was—I forget it already. The control, which was “get instant access,” I think it was, is converting at 24 percent and the “show me your sales funnel secrets” is converting at 39.68 percent. This is a fairly new test. It’s only been up a day or two. The percentage improvement is 65.34 percent. A lot of times you’ll see a lot of experts showing that, “Hey, I got a 65 percent improvement,” and they pretend they’re big, they know everything about split testing and all that. This one, by the way, has a 98 percent chance to beat the original. Eric: 98 percent, nice. Jeremy: What’s that? Eric: I said, 98 percent? Jeremy: Yeah, 98 percent. Eric: Nice. Jeremy: This one is a winner, right? What a lot of people won’t tell you—and this is something that’s really, really important to understand—is that, right now it has a 65 percentage improvement, but it’s everything always comes back to the norm. Even though it’s a winner, as more conversion data comes in—this is only based off, I have 43 conversions total. As I get up to 100, 200, 300 conversions and there’s more data, that percentage of improvement is going to come down and get closer to the median or closer to normal, where it would be even. Eric: Right. Jeremy: Basically, the thing to take away is that when people tell you, “We did X and we doubled our results.” Don’t listen to the percentage that they tell you, just get the idea. The idea, for my example, so you guys can test this, is test something normal that you would normally use; “get instant access,” “get free report now,” whatever is, versus something that’s a little bit more like a more novel, more “show me your sales funnel secrets.” It’s not something they see every day. Test that, but don’t look at the—when conversion rates experts tell you the numbers, don’t really pay attention to any of that. Just pay attention to what the strategy behind it was, and then do your own testing. Mine is 65 percent now. I’m going to let it run a week and after that, it might only be 30 percent or it might be 20 percent. It should still be a winner. It’s just that the percentage of an improvement is the one thing that—basically, don’t get too excited about it. Eric: Do you have any advice on how long they should let a test run? Is there a certain amount of views or clicks you should let a test, on average, run? Jeremy: That’s a good question. It really depends on a couple factors. What I usually do is look for at least 30 conversions for each of the variations. If you have two variations, wait until you get at least 30 to 50 conversions on each of them. You also always want to make sure that you do it for at least a week, so it can go through. You’ll find that out that some days convert a lot higher than other days. If you really dig into the data, weekends might do really bad or really good or whatever, so that’s the second thing. I use Visual Website Optimizer. Any split testing software you use is going to give you a chance to beat the original. You always want that to be above 95 percent. A little bit of a caveat to that is that if you have a business and you don’t have a lot of conversions, it takes you awhile. It’s really just a percentage game. It’s just a chance that you have. It’s a very high probable chance. This one, for example, has a 98 percent chance to beat the original. That doesn’t mean that it’s absolutely going to beat the original. It means that I have a 2 percent of that actually losing. Don’t think of testing as a definite thing. Think of it is as, this is the most likely scenario. If you’re testing and you don’t have a lot of data, if it takes you three months to get one test done, just go with whatever you’re comfortable with. If you get up to 90 percent chance to beat the original, then go with that. Just go with whatever. I usually recommend 95, but you also have to look at the time factor and the time cost too. Eric: That’s true. Jeremy: That’s just a couple things to think about. Eric: Let’s say you had that definite winner, and that Facebook button was the winner for you, the submit button; would you challenge that to another test then? Do you say, lesson learned for now, that’s the winner. I’ll let that go and move onto the next thing I want to test, whether it be a website or something else. Jeremy: That’s another good question. What I’ll do is this is a winner, has a couple days left. Whenever a week is over, if it’s still a winner, on the page, I’ll change it to the winner. At that point, I’m trying to think. I will probably, on this landing page, I will, I actually might do a little bit more of a big test. The landing page right now is all text based, so I actually might go to an all text, to just a video and an opt-in form, something big like that. Pretty much, when it comes to figuring out what to test next, I look for the things on the page that are going to make the biggest improvements; so going from an all text to all video. The call to action button, believe it or not, it’s a big factor. Eric: No, it is. I think a lot of people miss that. When I changed my opt-in on my site, I tested it all that time. Just simple changing of words can make a huge, dramatic—a perfect example, my Facebook fan page, a client had something like “send my email here.” We changed it to a simple, “give me the info.” It dramatically increased the opt-in that same day. We let it run and that’s what we’ve been using, but just simple, like you said could be huge. A lot of people drop the ball on the simple stuff. Jeremy: Yeah. It really can, especially, the shorter the page, the more that’s going to have an effect. If you have a 15 page long sales letter, doing “add to cart” versus “buy now” probably won’t make a huge difference, but if you have just a quick little landing page, then it can make a huge difference. Eric: Right. Jeremy: Even with that, another cool little thing to try just to get people’s minds, get it creative and going a little crazy, is one of the things—and I might do this for my next test, I’m not sure. I’m excited about the idea because I don’t remember seeing it before. You’re going to get an exclusive idea here. What I’m going to test now is “show me your sales funnel secrets” versus a big, huge call to action button that essentially has 30 or 40 words in it. It’s like, “Give me your secret that you’ve invested or that you’ve got over a million dollars worth of testing research under your belt. This is what you came up with;” something really, really long. Eric: Oh, nice, like a direct response order form button or kind of like “Yes, Eric, I’m ready to invest.” Jeremy: Yeah. Something like that, but in a button form on a regular landing page. Eric: Nice. Jeremy: To be honest, I have no idea if it’s going to work or not. It might bomb horribly. I have no idea. I’ve never seen that done before, so I’m going to do it. I, personally, think that it’s going to work, just because you have to read every word of that. Nobody’s ever seen that before, so the novelty of it, the newness and uniqueness of it. As soon as people hit that page, how do you not read that? Eric: Right. That’s going to be a button form, kind of thing, where they push it? Jeremy: Yeah. Eric: Yeah. I haven’t seen that done. Definitely let me know how that works out for you. That’s going to be interesting. Jeremy: I’m excited. Eric: That’s nice. I know what we’re talking about is once you’re doing the testing, they’ve come to your page or they’ve opted in. This is the thing, like you said, too, that you really work with clients with this, is building their sales funnels. If we could maybe dive into a little bit about how business owners can go out and find the holes currently in their funnels or if they’re starting out, how they can get that process at least started, to make it profitable from the jump. Jeremy: I’ll take that in two different ways. If you’re just starting up, what you want to do is—I’m going to try to make it as generally applicable to everybody listening. When you’re just starting up, let’s say that your order process is, somebody comes into your website, they buy and they get the thank you email saying, “Your order was successful,” and that’s it. It’s not really even a sales funnel, but it’s a way to get them in, I guess. What you want to do and most basic thing that I always try to get people to do is, number one, give away some type of value added thing. It could be a free report, a video, anything that gives value to the people that you’re trying to serve, to get them to essentially raise their hand and say, “Hey, I’m interested in what you’re selling.” You put them onto a prospect auto responder list. The point of that is to sell them your main product, whatever that is. After they buy your main product, you should have—I’m trying to think of a minimum here. I would say probably at least two other, either products or services. One thing is I always try to tell people, if you’re a service business, make sure you have product. If you’re a product business, make sure you have services. It’s really the only way to maximize your funnel and really find those hyper buyers in your list that are going to pay you for anything that you come out with. Eric: That’s a great point. Can I ask on a sidetrack, but related. Do you find that a lot of clients come to you from your products that you release or vice versa, they become your clients and then go after your products? Jeremy: Both actually. A pretty huge percentage of clients will buy a product, and then I hear from them three days later. It’s usually along those lines, for me personally. I mean, it’s different for everybody. My services are really expensive, in the four and five figures, so people want to make sure that I know what I’m talking about. I’ll get a lot of emails that say, “Hey, Jeremy, I just bought X product. Didn’t even go through it. I just wanted to make sure you were the real deal and you actually did what you said you did. That’s why I’m writing to you now and I want to talk about hiring you.” I get those emails all the time because I’m the sales funnel guy and people want to go through my process, and say, “Let’s see if the sales funnel guy has his own sales funnel.” Eric: Yeah. See if he’s just preaching there, exactly. Jeremy: I get a lot of those emails. I also get a lot of people that come in and they become clients or coaching students or whatever, and they want to learn more. These are mostly the business owners that they really love to learn. They just can’t get enough information, so they’ll be working with me as they’re going through my products. Eric: Right. Those are the best kind of clients, absolutely. Jeremy: Yeah. It’s kind of both. Eric: Nice. Sorry about that. I didn’t mean to get you sidetracked. I thought it was important to throw that out to the audiences that are trying to get some products. That’s a good way to bring in business as well. Jeremy: For everybody that has a service business. I’m doing this Facebook campaign. It’s giving away a free report, getting them into my funnel. I just had somebody, I think it was yesterday, where I looked at their—I like to look at the—I have office autopilot, I can see, somebody opted in for this and went to this page, and they filled out this form, so I can see the whole process of everything they did. Yeah, it’s pretty cool. It essentially tracks all the pages, and you can see the whole process that they went through. This happens all the time. This one is just one example. They opted in. They’re from Facebook, so they never heard of me before. They opted into the same landing page that I’ve been talking about. Three minutes after that, they went to my services page and read my service about building sales funnels and opted into that. They became a coaching prospect, I guess you could say, or a client prospect. It’s pretty cool. You get ancillary benefits of doing a lot of traffic. You should factor that in, by the way, to when you’re buying paid traffic. There’s always that little side shoe. If you’re selling products, there’s always a certain number of people that are going invest in your services and other products and things like that. Eric: Nice. Jeremy: I forget where I was going with that. Eric: I’m sorry. I threw you off. We were talking about, basically, with everything, that’s part of the funnel process obviously. Let’s say someone has an auto responder set up, someone has a product or services; is there common holes that you’ve found with clients that are maybe just leaking profits for them or something they could do to plug those holes up real quick? Jeremy: Yeah. That’s an interesting one. Holes in their funnels? It usually has to do with the frequency of communication. What that means is, essentially, a lot of people—and I mean, by a lot of people, I mean probably 90 plus percent of entrepreneurs—they’re kind of afraid of communicate with their prospects. Personally, I have a hard time understanding this. It might just be for me. I kind of got my chops reading J. Abraham and strategy preeminence where everything is just, you just start the relationship by adding value. That might be the reason for that. Everything I do, it starts with value. I don’t ever, ever expect anybody to do business with me before me providing them value first. The thing with communication is people are afraid they’re going to annoy their lists. It’s kind of bogus because they wouldn’t be doing business with you, they won’t be on your list unless they wanted to hear from you. If you have a weight loss website or if you’re a dentist and somebody signs up for your newsletter or whatever. They did that. It’s not like somebody is holding a gun to their head and they made them sign up for the newsletter. They did that because they want to hear from you. They want to hear about you, about what you do about how you can help them. About how you helped other people. To see you demonstrate your expertise so they can make a decision whether they should go with you or somebody else. The biggest hole when you’re building your funnel is, make sure that you’re communicating with your prospects as much as you possibly can. That includes auto responder sequences. It includes retargeting campaign, people who saw certain pages and didn’t buy what you have. You follow up with them with banners or Facebook ads, doing retargeting. You can do direct mail, emails, postcard, text messages, voice mails. There’s all kinds of stuff, but make sure that you are communicating with them frequently. Along with that, getting them in as risk free as possible. Usually start with whatever your lowest price product or service is and offer them that, get them into the buying cycle. It gets them used to spending money with you and then just constantly working on taking them up the ladder. Let’s just say right now you have a $37 product and a service that’s $97 a month, just for an example. Once you start getting people that are going to that $97 a month product or service, you should be thinking, what else? How can I add more value to these people and charge a higher price? Usually, that’s a “done for you” thing, or more of a step-by-step process. Coaching, you can do coaching in almost any business. Any business that you have. You want to make things faster or easier for people, and then get creative. Think of new products, new services, that you can charge more money for because there’s just a lot of people. There’s a certain percentage in every audience that will spend several times more money with you than you’re currently offering them. That’s a huge hole that I find in almost everybody’s funnel. They don’t have enough high priced, high ticket items. It really makes a huge, huge difference. If you’re selling $37 products and you have a $5,000 product, you only have to sell—or let’s just say for easy math, a $30 product and a $6,000 really high ticket thing. You have to sell 200 of the $30 products, for one of the $6,000 sales. Eric: Nice. Jeremy: If you’re selling 200 a month, you’re making $6,000 a month. You add in a $6,000 product and you sell one of those to one out of every 200 people, you’ve just doubled your business. It’s really, really important to have those high priced, high ticket offers in there. It really can do some pretty amazing things to your bottom line. A lot of times, if they are services or something like that, they’re higher profit too. Your profit margin is, typically at least, if it’s one-on-one coaching or something like that. Your profit margin is pretty huge. Eric: Right. Are you a big fan of the marketing ladder? Say, moving people up from the $39 e-book or product all the way up to the “done for you” services, et cetera? Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. I actually have tomorrow and Friday, we’re recording this on a Wednesday, tomorrow, Thursday and Friday, I have back-to-back in-person, full day consultations with a client. Eric: Nice. Jeremy: It’s $3,000 a day, so it’s $6,000 in two days. That’s essentially, for me, an upsell from my typical monthly coaching program. It’s essentially doing several months in advance, doing it in one or two days. It’s a way to do everything faster for people. It’s very, very profitable doing that. Definitely, because people want to spend more money with you, it’s just a matter of showing them the value. It really all comes back down to value. I could go out there and have $100,000 coaching program, but if I can’t show people that they’re going to make $500,000 or $1 million, then nobody is going to buy it. You have to find out how much value you can provide to people and then charge accordingly. Eric: That makes sense. I guess what you said before, and I wanted to ask you about this, I know you’ve said before the truth about price; what the main reason people really buy your product or services is? Jeremy: Yeah. A lot of people think that people buy based off price. In some cases, it’s true. Sometimes people literally just don’t have the money to pay you. I was talking to someone who desperately wanted to join my coaching program, but she couldn’t afford it because she was going month to month and she could barely even put food on the table. I was like, “Listen, don’t even.” She wanted to join, she’s like, “No, no, I’ll sell something,” or whatever. I said, “Listen, I’m not comfortable enough. If this doesn’t work, you literally can’t feed yourself. I just can’t live with that.” I guess that’s a good demonstration of my sales funnel selling her on my coaching program. It’s the same way with your sales funnel. You want to make sure that people understand the value that you’re providing them. That’s what it really comes down to. In most cases, like in 90 percent of cases, it’s not that something is too expensive. It’s that they don’t see that the value you’re providing is more than the prices they’re paying. If you’re offering, we’ll go to health, just because it’s easy and it’s relatable. Say it’s $97. If you don’t show the value is worth more than $97, then people aren’t going to buy. Whereas, if you show them that its worth $197, $297, $997, whatever it is, then people are more likely to buy on the higher you show that value, then the bigger gap between your price and the value. Obviously, with the value being higher, the higher your sales are going to be. That’s what copywriters do is, essentially, bring out that value and show the benefits and overcome the objections. That’s why operating it is so important, because when you really boil it down, that’s what we’re doing, is bringing out and showing people why they’re paying X dollars, but the value is X dollars times five, ten or twenty or whatever. Eric: Yeah. Like you’re saying, it doesn’t really have to be what you’re adding to it, you just have to raise the perceived value and that will raise the prices. Maybe a tip you give someone to raise the perceived value without adding more to their product or service or their widget? Jeremy: Yeah. That’s a good question. First of all, before I even get into that, raising your prices is probably the best and fastest way to grow your business. Eric: Right. Jeremy: I wish I could just get paid for saying, “Raise your price.” Because you can go into a million dollar business and say, “Raise your price ten percent,” and they can increase their profit by $100,000. If your margins are low, the lower your profit margin, the more you raise your price, the higher that multiple is. I can’t really do any examples off the top of my head because there’s a lot of math involved. Just basically, before I get into how to raise your perceived value so you can raise prices, make it a point to do a split test and raise your prices. If you’re nervous about it, I know a lot of people are, that’s totally fine. If you’ve never done it before, don’t be worried about being nervous about. Do it at 5 percent or 10 percent or something like that. If you think about it, if you’re selling something for $897 and you go to $997, that’s ten percent higher. People really aren’t going to notice that difference. If you go from $9 to $9.90, that would be 10 percent. People aren’t going to notice that. If you want to do that, number one, is if you can just price test and see if people will pay a higher price. A lot of times you’ll see that you can go up to 20 percent without changing anything about the offer and your conversions stay the same. Sometimes, not too often, but sometimes you’ll actually increase your conversions because sometimes people, if you have too much value and your price is too low, it’s actually one of those scenarios, where people are like, “That can’t be real. There must be something about this. That’s just wrong.” Eric: That’s a great point. That happens all the time because speaking in the marketing ladder a lot of times with a client I’ll do an SEO. From there, go onto the marketing and the copywriting because they need that afterwards, before or during. A lot of clients, a lot of packages, the price, they just couldn’t believe that’s what I was offering. I had a lot of skeptical people because they were coming from other companies that had ripped them off or had bad experiences with them. That’s a great point, sometimes people just don’t believe it if it sounds too good to be true. Jeremy: Yeah, people are skeptical. You kind of have to think as a consumer. Take your mind out of being a business owner. As a consumer, you have this natural sense of what a price should be. You can probably look at things and just line ten items up. You could probably get within 20 or 30 percent of that actually price, just by guessing at what the price would be. We kind of just have that internal filter of what a price should be. If you’re out of that range, people’s flags go up and they’re like, “Wait, something is not right here.” They get that gut feeling that just something is just not adding up. The conclusion they come to is, “Well, they must be lying.” Eric: Right. Jeremy: Going back to the raising perceived value. There’s a lot of different ways to do it. Number one is improve your copy. If you’re trying to do the copy yourself, hire a good copywriter, not somebody from elance or not somebody for $500 for a sales letter; unless you’re just starting and you really just don’t have money. It’s better than nothing. If you have a relatively successful business, number one, is hiring a copywriter or learning copy yourself. Then get some courses and learn how to write really good copy because, like I said, you learn to overcome objections. You learn to gain attention from people. You learn to develop interests and get them engaged in the copy to really showcase the benefits of your product or service. Number one is write better copy. Number two, is show your personality. That’s actually one thing that most people don’t really think of, but I’ve made a big, big shift in the last year, because I see a huge trend in going towards personality and transparency. If you follow my emails, you’ll see how personal I am. I’m always telling stories about my wife and my kids and stupid things that I’m doing, like last weekend I jumped into an ice pond for a polar plunge. It was for charity. I like to talk about that. One guy actually wrote back and told me I had a death wish. It was fun, talking about that stuff. It’s just me being me. You can’t be fake anymore. You have to just be whoever you are. If you’re a big flamboyant really off the wall character, and you’re really loud and obnoxious, then just be that. If you’re kind of quiet, shy and reserved, be that person. You can’t really fake it anymore with social media and all that kind of stuff. Number two is be yourself. Usually that’s done either through emails or videos. In case you’re wondering in your head, “Wait how does that increase perceived value of your product or service?” That really doesn’t increase the value of the product or service. It increases the value of you and the relationship that they have with you. It all starts with a relationship. They have to trust you if you’re selling something. If they don’t trust you, you could be giving away bars of gold for $1 and nobody is going to buy it, because they think you’re lying. That’s number two is build trust by being yourself, being personal, telling stories, and that kind of thing. Another thing you could do is add bonuses. Add whatever your product is, whatever your service, add little extras, little bonuses. If you’re selling an information product, you can have bonuses on little extra videos or how to get faster results; how to get better results with this certain technique or whatever. That’s one that probably most people know. Another thing, make it better risk reversal. Have better guarantees. You could have longer guarantees. You could have conditional guarantees, like a money back guarantee if they can prove that they went through your program or did your service or whatever and they didn’t get the results, then they can double you money back guarantee; something that takes the risk off that person and puts it on you. Another thing you can do is establish—juxtapose your product or service with somebody with an industry leader that they already trust. You can kind of borrow that credibility. For example, you have a course and you’re selling information. It really doesn’t matter. It could be a service, course, whatever it is. If you somehow involve either something in your industry or a celebrity or somebody like that and you kind of juxtapose, which essentially means you tie it into your product, then that increases the value because you get that borrowed credibility. Those are a couple ways to help increase your perceived value. The easiest way is probably better copy, I would say. Eric: Right. I agree. I always say this, but I think copy marketing and sales are the most important skills. The better the marketing, the easier the sales process and copywriting and salesmanship tie together. Jeremy: Yeah. Absolutely. Eric: Nice. One thing I want to ask you, not only to provide value for the audience, but selfishly, as well, I guess I should say. I’m coming out with a new course here. This is about product launching. Is there steps that you, personally, do when you work with clients or start off your launches on the right track? Is there something that you could do or suggest to people? Jeremy: I’ll let you take most of the credit for the product launch stuff. I don’t want to jump on your toes too much. I’ll give one recommendation that reverberates through the whole product launch sequence, and that is, proof. Proof is just everything. When I was launching the funnel formula, which is my flagship product that teaches you how to build sales funnels. When I did that launch to my own list, I didn’t do affiliates and all that kinds of stuff. That’s just too annoying for me. One of the things, I just focused on proof, proof, proof. Every single email that went out, every piece of communication that went out had some type, at least one piece of proof in it; whether it was a result that I got for a client, whether it was case study from a client, or an example of what happened when a client or me built the sales funnel or added a piece of the sales funnel. Telling them things they didn’t know, like, “Hey, in module three, there’s a really cool tip that let’s you do X.” That’s a style of proof, everywhere from there or telling about my past results. I did something that I was a little bit nervous of, but during my launch, and it really only works for selling to marketing people. I’ll give you an example of how you can use it in another niche. What I did was during my launch, I did it—I can’t even remember the dates. It might have been Monday through Friday, I forget. Throughout the week, I was telling my audience and giving them proof on how sales funnels worked, based on giving them numbers of my own sales funnel and how that launch was going. Eric: Nice, so a play-by-play of your launch. Jeremy: Exactly. I had screenshots. I said, “Hey, look, I would have made X dollars if I didn’t have this sales funnel in place.” I didn’t actually say dollars, I just did percentage. It was something like, “I made an extra,” I forgot what it turned out to be. It was something like, 33 percent of my sales were from selling the main product, and 66 percent of my sales came from the sales funnel, after they bought that first product. I said, “Look, I would have been leaving 66 percent of the money I made on the table if I didn’t have this sales funnel.” That was huge. I actually showed even more proof. I showed a screenshot from inside my office autopilot, which is my CRM, so they could see what I was talking about. One thing that you can do, let’s just go back to weight loss. That one is easy. If you’re selling a weight loss course, you can say, maybe you did a two week launch. You could say, “Somebody bought this on the first day, four days later, they’re already down eight pounds. This other person bought it and within two days, they were down five pounds.” Throughout the launch, you can talk about the results that people are getting since the launch started, results that people have done in the past. You could even do things like with scarcity, with deadlines and scarcity. Saying, “We only have 50 left and there are 20,000 people waiting on the list. They’re waiting for the cart to open. Make sure you get there as soon as I tell you it’s open, because there’s going to be 20,000 people that are going to buy this product.” You can do scarcity like that. Make sure you don’t lie. I hate when people lie in marketing. Eric: That’s a good point. My last course I did that too. It was a higher price course. What I did with the list that was on the list for that course was scarcity and social proof. I would literally list the people. I would say, “Jason from California invested today.” I listed the people’s first name and the state they were from of who invested that day during that launch process as social proof as well. I never really tested that, to be honest with you, against not doing that. When I did that, the results seemed to be more dramatic then when I did this before without doing that added factor. Jeremy: That’s one of those things that it’s a given that it’s going to do better. Hopefully, that helps with product launches. Eric: Nice. That’s beautiful. Just to clarify, I don’t know if you misunderstood. My course, it has nothing to do with product launches, but as this launched a new course or product. I know you actually worked with that, but my audience at the end, we’ll give out Jeremy’s website at the end. If you do have a product launch, you can talk to Jeremy as well. Jeremy: I thought you were having a course about product launches? Eric: No. It’s going to be a full marketing strategy, sales copy, the good stuff. Before we wrap it up today, because you shared a lot of good value and I definitely want to thank you for coming on. I know a lot of business owners and entrepreneurs listening may have a continuity service or maybe a continuity or monthly program, or maybe they’re even thinking about starting one, which could be very profitable. Can you share a tip or two before we leave today on how they can increase their retention rates? Some way to make their customers stick with them longer. Jeremy: Yeah. Let me throw out three different things. Number one is one of the things that I really love to do. Again, everything all goes back to value. As soon as they buy something, this is especially true with a continuity program, but it’s also true with any service, any product. I put people into what I call a “personal coach campaign.” Somebody buys one of my products and for the next, roughly 30 days, it depends, but roughly 30 days; they get emails specifically based on that product. The point of that is to get them to consume the product, not eat the product, you know, consume the product. Eric: Right. Jeremy: I guess it could be to eat the product, if you’re selling some kind of food. Eric: That’s awesome. That’s motivating them at the same time you’re there for them, right, supporting them? Jeremy: Yeah. There’s a couple things that it does. It establishes a relationship with them. You already have a relationship with them because they trust you enough to buy your product. A lot of people have buyer’s remorse. They’re kind of like, “Oh, God, I shouldn’t have bought it. Now I’m going to have to return this.” They think that a lot of business owners don’t care. They’re just in it for the sale. If you have a full 30 days of emails or could be a mix of emails, videos, whatever you want to do with it, the media. It really shows people that you care about them. You should care about them, regardless if it increases retention rates or anything like that. You should do this anyway because you care about your customers. The side benefit is that it increase retention rates, reduces refunds, because it establishes and builds that relationship. It all comes down to value and relationship. That’s one thing that, everything revolves around that. That’s one thing is to have a personal coach campaign. It’s just easy. They could be quick, just to say, “I really appreciate that you bought it. I want you to know that I’m here for you. I actually care about you and hope that you get the results that you’re looking for.” It’s not just like, “Hey, thanks for your money. See ya,” and you never talk to them again; which is what most people do. It’s rare that I get emails, maybe out of all the product I’ve ever bought in my entire life, I could probably count on one hand how many campaigns like that that I’ve ever gotten. You stick out like crazy, if you do that. Eric: Great. Jeremy: Number two … I’m sorry. Eric: I just said that’s great. That’s fantastic. I haven’t seen, like you said, I’ve really never seen it. I can’t think of any product or service that I’ve bought where there’s been an ongoing campaign like that. Jeremy: Yeah. For some people, it’s that they really don’t care. They just want your money. For others, they just haven’t thought about it yet. The second thing is send out some type of email. It could be anything. It could be a salesman calling them, a customer support person. It could be a postcard, letter, text message, whatever media you want to use. Essentially, do a stick letter. In direct mail, they do stick letter. That is kind of close to a personal coach campaign, but it’s just one piece, where you just thank them for the order. If there’s any membership details, you can put that in there. Just reassure them that it was a good purchase. They’re going to get value out of it. maybe add a little tip in there to help them get more value out of whatever they just bought, and then sell them another product. Eric: Absolutely. That’s a fabulous way to get your back end going. Jeremy: Yeah. The product should be, if you’re selling a supplement for, let’s just go back to weight loss again. If you’re selling something for weight loss, you can’t sell them a supplement for getting rid of toe fungus or something like that, because there’s no congruency there. Whatever it is, it has to be really congruent, and really make sense to add more value to take whatever results they’re going to get and take them to a new level. That’s the second one, send a stick letter. The third one, I just had it in my mind. The first one is the personal coach campaign. The second one is a stick letter. Third one, another thing you can do for retention rates is get people—this is kind of a mental type of thing. Get people to give you testimonials. You may not have really heard this before, I’m not sure. If you can get somebody to give you a testimonial and cement that idea in their mind that they love this product, it’s helping them. Who do you know that’s going to give somebody a testimonial and ask for a refund? Know what I mean? You can do this in your personal coaching campaign. If you do a campaign and get them to commit to doing business with you and to admit that you’re helping them and you’re doing a good job for them, they’re probably not going to ask for a refund. They’re going to stay with you longer. A fourth bonus thing that goes in with the stick letter is keep selling them additional products. Keep selling them additional services, because as they go down the rabbit hole with you, they’re going to get more attached to doing business with you. The more they spend with you, the less likely they are to ever leave you because you’re now their knight in shining armor that’s helping them fix whatever problem their trying to solve. Eric: Fantastic. Absolutely. That’s great. This has been awesome, Jeremy. I definitely want to thank you. You shared a lot of fantastic value, great value share here. I want to thank you for coming on the tenth episode here of The Fast Easy Success Marketing Insider. Before everyone goes out and dives in on all the tips and takes action on everything we talked about, can you tell the listeners where they can learn more about you, check you out? Jeremy: Two things, pretty easy. My name is Jeremy Reeves. I’ll tell you why I’m saying this in a second. You spell it J-E-R-E-M-Y R-E-E-V-E-S. The reason that I’m spelling it out is because the number one thing that I would recommend is just going on my website, www.JeremyReeves.com. On there, you can see whatever you want. I have free stuff on there. There should be a popup that comes up and gives you a free report up in the navigation bar, there’s a resources section that says “free” on it. There’s different things that you can opt-in to and get a whole bunch of free stuff, interviews and reports and videos and all kinds of stuff. The other thing is I have my own podcast. It’s called, Sales Funnel Mastery. Go into iTunes or whatever you listen to and do a search for that. You can follow me on my podcast. I do a lot of short sections, where I usually cover a single topic in five, ten, fifteen minutes, something like that. Little tidbits of strategy and stuff like that. Those are the two things, www.JeremyReeves.com for my website. If you want to look at any of the free products I have, free services or whatever is right for you, or check out Sales Funnel Mastery. That’s my podcast. Eric: Nice. I was telling Jeremy before the show, I checked out his podcast yesterday. I definitely recommend everybody check out there, and definitely his site. You get some good value. I recommend it. It’s definitely worth it. Jeremy, wow, it’s been an absolutely pleasure with you. Thank you for taking the time and sharing everything with the listeners. All you listeners out there, I hope you enjoyed the show and most importantly, take action on everything Jeremy and I talked about today. Before we go, if you guys could do me two quick favors, I’d really appreciate it. Simply hit that subscribe button, so you don’t miss out on a future business boosting podcast. If you stuck around this far, you obviously enjoyed the value share. Make sure you do those reviews and comments. I need your help in getting noticed and getting the value out to more people. I’m your host Eric Barton, a result specialist, signing out today. We’ll see you next week for another fast easy success marketing insider. Here’s to your success. It’s Jeremy back here again. I really hope you enjoyed that interview. For more information on this podcast and everything like that. A couple things, make sure that you’re subscribed to this podcast to make sure you’re getting every episode. This is the kind of stuff that I cover, everything that we went over in that interview; just really, really solid, insightful strategies for building your business. Make sure that you’re telling friends about the podcast, we can get the rankings up there and get the word out to everybody. Make sure that you’re leaving reviews and clicking the little stars; especially, in iTunes. That helps me boost the rankings and get more attention so everybody else can benefit from this. That’s pretty much it. I will see you at www.JeremyReeves.com. I really hope you enjoyed this. Thanks.

Panel Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Evan Light (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code) Discussion 01:28 - What do you do when prospective clients only want to hire you full-time? Employees vs Contractors On-site work 08:35 - How to get clients from a different country or timezone Enforcing contracts Marketing 13:49 - Do people hire you because you’re specifically a “Ruby” freelancer? 21:02 - What types of jobs do you accept and what types do you refuse? Will the project be successful? 30:35 - What types of jobs are you getting from Ruby on Rails? 33:35 - How do you deal with uncertainty or risk when writing a Statement of work? Identify risky areas Be as specific as possible 39:25 - Building LinkedIn recommendations Testemonials 43:32 - Working on a retainer Support Agreements/On Call work Picks Audio-Technica ATR2100-USB Cardioid Dynamic USB/XLR Microphone (Eric) Nexus 7 (Evan) SCOTTEVEST Fleece 7.0 Jacket (Evan) Twitter Bootstrap (Chuck) Downton Abbey (Chuck) Rails Ramp Up (Chuck) Transcript CHUCK: Yes, I put my microphone right on my face. So you get all of the good noises that come out of my mouth. [Are you a busy Ruby developer who wants to take their freelance business to the next level? Interested in working smarter not harder? Then check out the upcoming book “Next Level Freelancing - Developer Edition Practical Steps to Work Less, Travel and Make More Money”. It includes interviews and case studies with successful freelancers, who have made a killing by expanding their consultancy, develop passive income through informational products, build successful SaaS products, and become rockstar consultants making a minimum of $200/hour. There are all kinds of practical steps on getting started and if you sign up now, you’ll get 50% off when it’s released. You can find it at nextlevelfreelancing.com] [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 40 of the Ruby Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: We also have Evan Light. EVAN: Hello CHUCK: And I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. This week we're going to kind of work through some of the questions that have been put on our user voice panel. There are a handful of them that we don't think necessarily merit a full show. Meaning that, we don't know if we could talk about them for a full hour so we'll just ask some of the questions and then work our way through them. So the first question that I see that I want to go over is "what do you do when prospects only want you as a full time employee?" And there's a bit more to this, Bryan Ray put it up and it says "I'm pretty new to freelancing. I moonlight in pretty much all of my prospects in the past couple of months, seemed interested after a couple of conversations, but eventually they are only looking for full time employees right now. Either full time or 30-40 hours a contract work, which at that point you're basically an employee working for one client's stricter hours indefinite work as opposed to distinct projects, etc. I'm pretty sure it's due to the fact that I can't dedicate many hours per week right now. Do you guys run into this problem? Or did you when you first started out?" EVAN: For me, I tend to work for one big client to one smaller client at a time so I'm not quite fulltime with a client, but I tend to dedicate a lot of time to one client, but not fulltime. And I've gotten some people who want me to work fulltime and I generally try to avoid those period. If they said that's what they want, usually they're inflexible on it, then I just move on find someone else. At least that's been my experience. ERIC: It's been a bit different. I did, I think it was 2 up to maybe 4 or 5 clients at a time for a while there.

Panel Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Evan Light (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code) Discussion 01:28 - What do you do when prospective clients only want to hire you full-time? Employees vs Contractors On-site work 08:35 - How to get clients from a different country or timezone Enforcing contracts Marketing 13:49 - Do people hire you because you're specifically a “Ruby” freelancer? 21:02 - What types of jobs do you accept and what types do you refuse? Will the project be successful? 30:35 - What types of jobs are you getting from Ruby on Rails? 33:35 - How do you deal with uncertainty or risk when writing a Statement of work? Identify risky areas Be as specific as possible 39:25 - Building LinkedIn recommendations Testemonials 43:32 - Working on a retainer Support Agreements/On Call work Picks Audio-Technica ATR2100-USB Cardioid Dynamic USB/XLR Microphone (Eric) Nexus 7 (Evan) SCOTTEVEST Fleece 7.0 Jacket (Evan) Twitter Bootstrap (Chuck) Downton Abbey (Chuck) Rails Ramp Up (Chuck) Transcript CHUCK: Yes, I put my microphone right on my face. So you get all of the good noises that come out of my mouth. [Are you a busy Ruby developer who wants to take their freelance business to the next level? Interested in working smarter not harder? Then check out the upcoming book “Next Level Freelancing - Developer Edition Practical Steps to Work Less, Travel and Make More Money”. It includes interviews and case studies with successful freelancers, who have made a killing by expanding their consultancy, develop passive income through informational products, build successful SaaS products, and become rockstar consultants making a minimum of $200/hour. There are all kinds of practical steps on getting started and if you sign up now, you'll get 50% off when it's released. You can find it at nextlevelfreelancing.com] [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 40 of the Ruby Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: We also have Evan Light. EVAN: Hello CHUCK: And I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. This week we're going to kind of work through some of the questions that have been put on our user voice panel. There are a handful of them that we don't think necessarily merit a full show. Meaning that, we don't know if we could talk about them for a full hour so we'll just ask some of the questions and then work our way through them. So the first question that I see that I want to go over is "what do you do when prospects only want you as a full time employee?" And there's a bit more to this, Bryan Ray put it up and it says "I'm pretty new to freelancing. I moonlight in pretty much all of my prospects in the past couple of months, seemed interested after a couple of conversations, but eventually they are only looking for full time employees right now. Either full time or 30-40 hours a contract work, which at that point you're basically an employee working for one client's stricter hours indefinite work as opposed to distinct projects, etc. I'm pretty sure it's due to the fact that I can't dedicate many hours per week right now. Do you guys run into this problem? Or did you when you first started out?" EVAN: For me, I tend to work for one big client to one smaller client at a time so I'm not quite fulltime with a client, but I tend to dedicate a lot of time to one client, but not fulltime. And I've gotten some people who want me to work fulltime and I generally try to avoid those period. If they said that's what they want, usually they're inflexible on it, then I just move on find someone else. At least that's been my experience. ERIC: It's been a bit different. I did, I think it was 2 up to maybe 4 or 5 clients at a time for a while there.

asset title: Episode 22: Episode 22: Truth and Consequences filename: ra_22.mp3 track number: 22/22 time: 12:07 size: 11.37 MB bitrate: 128 kbps If things had not been so wildly hectic here at Radio Arlecchino of late, this exciting episode would have appeared quite a bit sooner! But here it is at last, full of bone-chilling encounters of the second and third kind! Hypothetically speaking, that is. If you don’t tell the truth, you have to face the consequences. And we spell it all out for you, in every poignant tense and mood required. And what if Antonella were suddenly to be whisked away to Rome again, leaving Eric to his own devices in front of the microphone? Would it be sad, or would a clever plan be hatched? What if you were to listen in…?Dialog: ItalianNostalgia e desiderio Antonella: Se potessimo tornare indietro...Eric: Non lo farei, neanche se potessi.Antonella: Come mai? Credevo che tu fossi preso dalla nostalgia.Eric: Più forte della nostalgia ora è il mio desiderio di avere un incontro ravvicinatoAntonella: del secondo tipo?Eric: e anche del terzo.Flashback 1 Arlecchino: Ecco, arriva il Dottore! Temo che lui ce l'abbia con me. Mi arrampico sulla scala, così non mi vedrà..Flashback 2Pantalone: Non c'è nessun altro qui che abbia visto quello che è successo? Colombina: Te lo racconto io come è andata. Dunque, quando ha visto che ero proprio lì sotto, ha messo appositamente un piede male sulla scala! Mi ha guardato all'alto e penso proprio che l'abbia fatto apposta a cadere.Flashback 3Antonella: Sopra la scrivania, su quello scaffale... Prendi quella scatola...Eric: Cosa c'è dentro...?Antonella: Dai, dai, svita il cappuccio...Eric: Antonella... ma cos'è questo?Antonella: Oh, scusa, hai preso quella sbagliata, scusa, scusa... Ci dev'essere un'altra, controlla.Eric: La vedo, ma oso aprirla?Antonella: Ma sì! Abbi coraggio, Eric!Eric: Accidenti!Antonella: Oh, Eric! Che mani di pasta frolla che hai! Quelli sono i miei fagioli saltellanti!Flashback 4Dottore: Avete visitato il Vittoriano? Avete ammirato il Foro Romano?i turisti: Sì!Dottore: Siete andati ai Musei Vaticani? Avete messo la mano nella Bocca della Verità?i turisti: Sì!Dottore: Avete camminato da Piazza Navona fino alla Fontana di Trevi?i turisti: Sì!Dottore: Avete salito la scalinata in Piazza di Spagna?i turisti: Oh, sì!Dottore: Siete stanchi?i turisti: Sì!Antonella: Quei poveri turisti hanno camminato per tutta Roma in piena estate!Eric: Perciò sono stanchissimi.Flashback 5Dottore: Se ho dei petardi! Pulcinella, portami una scatola di petardi per il giovanotto... E per la signorina, queste meravigliose candele magiche “Gatto Nero”, un balocco divertente per tutta la famiglia...Oh, Pulcinella sì lo conoscono... Eccoli eccoli eccoli! Signori e signore, bambini di tutte le età, venite... sentitemi... Partecipate alle feste di San Giovanni, di Capodanno, di Natale, a tutte le feste dell'anno... Qui ci sono i rumori più sbalorditivi, le luci più brillanti, i colori più stravaganti, il fumo più misterioso, qui ci sono... i fuochi d'artificio Gatto Nero!Sì, sì... i razzi “Gatto Nero” sono giustamente famosi in tutto il mondo! Osservate...Accendo ora la miccia... Colombina, per favore...Colombina: Ecco, DottoreDottore: Grazie, mia cara... Et nunc... State per vedere qualcosa di veramente inverosimile....Colombina: Oh! Lei senz'altro lo vedrà, Dottore!Dottore: Tre... due... uno... Fuoco!Meravigliatevi ora davanti all'incomparabile pirotecnica 'Gatto Nero'!Antonella: Il Dottore ha fatto un bel viaggio sulla luna...Eric: grazie a Pulcinella che gli ha dato una mano con il razzo.Riflessioni e ricordi Eric: E se tu non fossi andata in Italia quell'estate, io non sarei rimasto qui da solo nello studio.Antonella: È vero che qui nello studio ci si può sentire abbandonati...Eric: Soprattutto in estate, quando i nostri amici attori sono tutti partiti per andare in vacanza.Antonella: Sarei molto più contenta adesso se fossero qui con noi.Eric: Pantalone rimproverebbe Pulcinella...Antonella: se Pulcinella avesse la faccia tosta di affrontarlo. Eric: Se vedesse entrare un bel giovanotto, Arlecchina--Antonella: --farebbe senz'altro la civettaEric: e Colombina si arrabbierebbe. Se Pulcinella suonasse il mandolino....Antonella: potremmo ballare la tarantella.Eric: dovremmo ballare invece la square danceAntonella: se ci fosse la signora Balanzone. Eric: E dove sono andati quei Balanzone?Antonella: Hanno lasciato un messaggio sulla segreteria telefonica. Senti.Dottor Balanzone: Saremmo andati a Rimini a trovare i genitori della signora Balanzone se non ci avessero invitato a partecipare a un seminario sulla square dance ad Austin! A dopo, amici! State bene! Buone vacanze!Antonella: E Pantalone?Eric: Ha lasciato questo biglietto:Ha scritto: 'Avevo intenzione di rimanere a Venezia, nonostante la folla di turisti, ma invece sarò nel Cadore... È vero, non amo le montagne. Comunque, a dire il vero, non ci andrei affatto se il Duca che mi ospiterà non avesse una nipote diciottenne che sta per ereditare un sacco di quei ducati.'Antonella: Ho sentito abbastanza. Il duca e i suoi ducati. Certe cose non cambiano mai...Eric: E tu, cosa faresti se non dovessi stare qua?Antonella: Bene, mio caro, stavo proprio per dirtelo... Io, di queste ipotesi, non ne faccio. Come dovresti ormai ben sapere, neanch'io rimarrò qui...Eric: Non è possibile! Di nuovo?Antonella: È estate... Roma! Ciao, Eric! Ti mando una cartolina!Eric: A presto, Antonella! Buon viaggio e buon divertimento!Antonella: Grazie! Ciao! Eric: Ma cosa faccio io adesso? Se ci fosse un modo di farlo, anch'io ci andrei. Se ci fosse giustizia in questo mondo, anch'io ammirerei il panorama dal Gianicolo... anch'io mangerei tartufo a Piazza Navona... anch'io berrei acqua Pansellegrino davanti al Colosseo... Dialog: EnglishNostalgia e desiderio Antonella: If we could turn back...Eric: I wouldn't do it, even if I could.Antonella: How come? I thought you were overcome with nostalgia.Eric: Stronger than nostalgia now is my desire to have a close encounter--Antonella: of the second type?Eric: and of the third as well.Flashback 1Arlecchino: There, here comes the Dottore! I'm afraid he has it in for me. I'll climb up the ladder, that way he won't see me.Flashback 2Pantalone: Is there noone else who saw what happened?Colombina: I'll tell you how it went. Now, when he saw that I was right under there, he deliberately took a false step on the ladder! He looked at me from above and I do believe he fell on purpose.Flashback 3Antonella: Above the desk, on that shelf... Get that jar...Eric: What's inside...?Antonella: Go on, unscrew the lid...Eric: Antonella... what's this?Antonella: Oh, sorry, you got the wrong one, sorry, sorry... There should be another one, take a look.Eric: I see it, but do I dare open it?Antonella: Of course! Be brave, Eric!Eric: Yikes!Antonella: Oh, Eric! What a butterfingers you are. Those are my jumping beans!Flashback 4Dottore: Have you visited the Vittoriano? Have you admired the Roman Forum?The Tourists: Yes!Dottore: Have you gone to the Vatican Museums? Have you put your hands in the Mouth of Truth?The Tourists: Yes!Dottore: Have you walked from Piazza Navona to the Trevi Fountain?The Tourists: Yes!Dottore: Have you climbed the Spanish Steps?The Tourists: Oh, yes!Dottore: Are you tired?The Tourists: Yes!Antonella: Those poor tourists have walked all over Rome in the middle of the summer!Eric: That's why they're worn out.Flashback 5Dottore: Do I have firecrackers! Pulcinella, bring me a box of firecrackers for the young man. And for the young lady, these wonderful Gatto Nero sparklers, a fun-filled amusement for the whole family.Oh, Pulcinella they know... Here they are, here they are, here they are! Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, come, hear me... Join in the feasts of Saint John, of the New Year, of Christmas, in all the holidays of the year... Here are the most amazing sounds, the most brilliant lights, the most extravagant colors, the most mysterious smoke, here are... Gatto Nero fireworks!Yes, yes... Gatto Nero rockets are justly famous throughout the world! Observe...Now I light the fuse... Colombina, if you please...Colombina: There you are, DottoreDottore: Thank you, my dear... Et nunc... You're about to see something truly incredible....Colombina: Oh! You're about to see it for sure, Dottore!Dottore: Three... two... one... Fire!Now wonder in amazement before the incomparable Gatto Nero pyrotechnics!Antonella: The Dottore took a fine trip to the moon...Eric: thanks to Pulcinella who gave him a hand with the rocket.Riflessioni e ricordi Eric: And if you hadn't gone to Italy that summer, I wouldn't have been left here alone in the studio.Antonella: It's true that here in the studio one can feel abandoned...Eric: Especially in the summer, when our actor friends have all left to go on vacation.Antonella: I would be much happier now if they were here with us.Eric: Pantalone would scold Pulcinella...Antonella: if Pulcinella had the cheek to confront him. Eric: If she saw a handsome young man come in, Arlecchina--Antonella: --would surely play the flirtEric: and Colombina would get mad. If Pulcinella played the mandolin...Antonella: we could dance the tarantella.Eric: instead we would have to dance a square danceAntonella: if Mrs Balanzone were here.Eric: And where have those Balanzones gone?Antonella: They left a message on the answering machine. Listen.Dottor Balanzone: We would have gone to Rimini to visit Mrs Balanzone's parents if we had not been invited to participate in a square dance seminar in Austin! See you later, friends! Stay well! Have a great vacation!Antonella: And Pantalone?Eric: He left this note:He wrote: 'I intended to stay in Venice, in spite of the crowd of tourists, but instead I will be in the Cadore... It's true, I'm not fond of the mountains. Anyway, to tell the truth, I wouldn't go at all if the Duke who will be hosting me didn't have an eighteen-year-old niece who's about to inherit a pile of ducats.'Antonella: I've heard enough. The duke and his ducats. Some things never change...Eric: And you, what would you do if you didn't have to stay here?Antonella: Well, my dear, I was just about to tell you... These hypotheses, I'm just not going to be making them. As you ought to know by now, I'm not staying here either...Eric: It's not possible! Again?Antonella: It's summer... Rome! Ciao, Eric! I'll send you a postcard!Eric: See you soon, Antonella! Have a good trip and have fun!Antonella: Thanks! Ciao! Eric: Now what do I do? If there were a way to do it, I would go too. If there were justice in this world, I too would admire the view from the Janiculum... I too would eat tartufo in Piazza Navona... I too would drink Pansellegrino water in front of the Coliseum....

asset title: Episode 17: Likes and Dislikes - Casting call and scream test filename: ra_17.mp3 track number: 17/22 time: 14:39 size: 12.01 MB bitrate: 112 kbps There's plenty to like about this episode and about Arlecchino's new movie! In Episode 17, Casting call and scream test, we explore how to express likes and dislikes in the compound tenses, like the passato prossimo. And in a Spettacolo Stasera exclusive, Arlecchina recalls her harrowing experience when she answered Pantalone's casting call for the film! Let's listen ...Dialog: ItalianArlecchina e il suo provino a Spettacolo Stasera Antonella: Buona sera a tutti e benvenuti a Spettacolo Stasera! Ormai gli appassionati di cinema non parlano che di questo film! Da sempre stelle teatrali, adesso Arlecchino e colleghi stanno raggiungendo somme vette nella scalata al successo. Eric: E io sono stato il primo radiogiornalista ad intervistare l'affascinante co-star del nostro amico. Antonella: Ogni Dario ha la sua FrancaEric: Ogni Roberto la sua NicolettaAntonella: e ogni Arlecchino la suaEric: Arlecchina! Esclusivamente a Spettacolo Stasera!Antonella: Sentiamo!Eric: Prima di tutto, congratulazioni vivissime! Il film sta ottenendo un gran successo sia di critica che di pubblico, ma detto inter nos: Lei, Arlecchina, è senza alcun dubbio la ragione principale del successo di quest'opera.Arlecchina: Grazie mille, ma per cortesia, mi dia del tu, anzi dammi del tu...Eric: Io sono un suo, cioè, un tuo grande fan. Dicci alcuni retroscena del film...Arlecchina: Posso dire che era da parecchio tempo che Arlecchino aveva in mente questa storia intricatissima e piena di surrealismo magico. Eric: È piaciuta subito a tutti i protagonisti la trama?Arlecchina: No, per carità, questo non succede mai a teatro, figuriamoci al cinema! Ci ha emozionato la parte avventurosa del progetto, ma ad alcuni ha dato fastidio l'ambizione sfrenata di Arlecchino...Eric: E qual è stata la tua prima reazione?Arlecchina: Oh, a me ha affascinato tutto subito. E poi sai, mi è così simpatico Arlecchino...Eric: Ho saputo che sul set hai fatto una nuova amicizia.Arlecchina: Eh sì, ormai ne parlano tutti, la Signora Balanzone mi sta simpaticissima. Non hai idea le risate che ci siamo fatte a vedere il marito ballare la square dance. Mi piace da morire il suo accento bolognese, e poi... che cuoca meravigliosa!Eric: E che ruolo ha avuto Pantalone, visto che ha investito, pare, tanti soldi nel film.Arlecchina: Veramente preferirei cambiare argomento...Eric: Sembra che ti ripugni solo il nome di questa persona...Arlecchina: Appena hai nominato il suo nome, ho fatto un tuffo in un passato che vorrei dimenticare.Pantalone: Ho voglia di brindare, tra breve Arlecchina sarà tra le mie braccia, qui nel famoso studio 5 di Cinecittà... Appena finiremo il provino per la parte principale del film di Arlecchino, metterò nella bevanda di Arlecchina il filtro d'amore preparato dalla mia bisnonna. Lei berrà e si innamorerà della prima persona che vedrà, cioè me! L'idea mi emoziona.Arlecchina: Permesso, posso entrare?Pantalone: Ma prego, carissima, accomodati!Arlecchina: Buon giorno. Che caldo bestiale fuori, ma anche qui dentro non si respira!Pantalone: E allora, bando alle ciance! Va' dietro al separè, spogliati ed indossa il costume di scena, mentre io ti preparo una bella bevanda fresca.Arlecchina: Scusa, ma il film di Arlecchino non è mica su Tarzan.. perché dovrei indossare quel bikini striminzito di finta pelle di giaguaro? Mi fa schifo.Pantalone: Mia cara, non m'interessa che ti faccia schifo; se vuoi la parte devi recitare ora davanti a me con questo costume. Ti conviene non fare i capricci.Arlecchina: Mi deludi, Pantalone. Pensi che sia stupida e non abbia capito cosa vuoi veramente?Pantalone: Ma ti sbagli. Io voglio solo essere sicuro di fare la scelta giusta per la protagonista di quello che diventerà il più grande film dell'ultimo decennio...Arlecchina: D'accordo. Mi metterò questo costume ridicolo e reciterò per te, ma esigo che ci sia un'altra persona in questa stanza.Pantalone: Va bene, per dimostrarti che è solo la passione per l'arte a spingermi, chiamerò la guardia. Sbrigati, su, va' a metterti il costume. L'altoparlante: Una guardia con urgenza al Teatro 5. Una guardia con urgenza al Teatro 5, grazie.Pantalone: Ora metto il filtro nella sua aranciata. Sei pronta?Arlecchina: Mamma mia, quanto mi dà fastidio l'atteggiamento di Pantalone... Pronto? Eccomi!Pantalone: Che visione! Prego, rinfrescati con questa bibita prima di cominciare il provino.Guardia: Signo', che m'avete fatto chiama'? Io stavo a dormi' alla granne, ma poi m'hanno detto che c'era n'attrice famosa allo studio 5 e so' venuto de corsa...Pantalone: Guardia, maledizione, ma perché è già qui, di solito arriva sempre un'ora dopo, se ne vada!Arlecchina: Oh, mi gira la testa, Signore, chi è Lei, mi affascinano i suoi baffi, mi emozionano le sue basette, mi ... mi sento tremare tutta, svengo...Guardia: Ma ccomm'è bbella, ppoverina... Ma un momento, allora, vuol di' che fate 'nna ppellicola de Tarzan...? Fico!Pantalone: Maledizione!Dialog: EnglishArlecchina and her Screen Test on Spettacolo Stasera Antonella: Good evening, everybody and welcome to Spettacolo Stasera! By now movie fans are talking about nothing but this film! They've always been stars of the stage, and now Arlecchino and his colleagues are reaching dizzying heights on the ladder to success.Eric: And I was the first radio reporter to interview our friend's charming co-star.Antonella: Every Dario has his FrancaEric: Every Roberto his NicolettaAntonella: And every Arlecchino his--Eric: Arlecchina! Exclusively on Spettacolo Stasera!Antonella: Let's listen!Eric: First of all, warmest congratulations! The film is enjoying a great success, among both critics and the general public, but just between us, you, Arlecchina, are without a doubt the main reason for the success of this opus.Arlecchina: Thank you so much, but please, address me informally (as 'tu').Eric: I'm one of your biggest fans. Give us some background on the movie.Arlecchina: I can tell you that Arlecchino had this intricate story in mind for a long time... so full of magical surrealism.Eric: Did everybody like the plot right away?Arlecchina: Heavens no! That never happens in the theatre, much less in the movies! We were excited about the daring of the project, but some were put off by Arlecchino's unbridled ambition.Eric: And what was your first reaction?Arlecchina: Oh, it all charmed me right away. And of course you know how much I like Arlecchino...Eric: I understand you made a new friend on the set.Arlecchina: Oh yes, everybody's talking about it by now, I like Mrs Balanzone so much. You can't imagine what a laugh we had seeing her husband do his square dance. I adore her Bolognese accent, and then... what a marvelous cook!Eric: And what was Pantalone's role, seeing that he invested, it seems, quite a bit of money in the movie.Arlecchina: Actually I would prefer to change the subject.Eric: It seems that the mere mention of his name repulses you...Arlecchina: The moment you spoke his name, I was plunged into a past that I would rather forget.Pantalone: I feel like drinking a toast, soon Arlecchina will be in my arms, here on the famous Soundstage 5 at Cinecittà... As soon has we finish the screen test for the lead female role in Arlecchino's movie, I'll place my great-grandmother's love potion in Arlecchina's drink. She will drink--and fall in love with the first person she sees, to wit, me! The idea excites me.Arlecchina: Excuse me, may I come in?Pantalone: Of course, my dear! Make yourself at home!Arlecchina: Hello. It's so frightfully hot outside, but even in here one can barely breathe!Pantalone: Well then, so much for idle chat! Go behind the screen, undress, and put on this costume, while I make you a nice refreshment!Arlecchina: Say, this movie of Arlecchino's isn't about Tarzan... why should I wear this skimpy, phoney leopard-skin bikini? It's disgusting.Pantalone: My dear, I don't care if it disgusts you. If you want the part you've got to perform for me with this costume. It will behoove you not to be capricious.Arlecchina: You disappoint me, Pantalone. Do you think I'm stupid, that I don't understand what you're really after?Pantalone: But you're wrong. I only want to be sure I'm making the right choice for the heroine of what's going to be the biggest film of the last ten years.Arlecchina: Fine. I'll put on this ridiculous costume, and I'll read for you. But I insist there be someone else in the room.Pantalone: Very well, to show you that it's merely a passion for art that drives me, I'll buzz for the guard. Come on, hurry up, go put on the costume.P.A. System: Security to Soundstage 5, urgently. Security to Soundstage 5, urgently, thank you.Pantalone: Now I'll put that potion in her orangeade. Are you ready?Arlecchina: Mercy, how tiresome this attitude of Pantalone's is! Ready? Here I am!Pantalone: What a sight! Please, refresh yourself with this drink before starting your audition.Guard: Sir, you called for me? I was having a fine snooze when they told me there was a famous actress on Soundstage 5 and I came running...Pantalone: Guard! Curses, what are you doing here already? You usually show up an hour later! Get out of here!Arlecchina: Oh, my head is spinning, Sir... Who are you? Your moustache fascinates me... Your sideburns excite me.... I.... I feel myself trembling... I'm going to faint...Guardia: How beautiful she is, poor thing... Wait a minute--so you guys are making a Tarzan picture...? Awesome!Pantalone: Curses!ItalianPubblicità per Arlecchino e l'ordine della pietra filosofaleAlcuni spettatori reagiscono: Mi hanno sempre affascinato i film che parlano della magia...Mi sono piaciuti i tucani che gli portavano la posta.Mi ha affascinato il negozio dove Arlecchino ha comprato la bacchetta!Mi interessa molto quel treno che li ha portati a Verruchesuine...Alla mia ragazza hanno fatto schifo le scimmie, ma a me sono state simpatiche!Mi importa molto che un film comunichi un messaggio serio ai giovani.Mi è piaciuta moltissimo la serenata che quel ragazzo ha cantato sotto il mare! Come si chia--ah, Pulcinella! Ci è tanto simpatico quel Pulcinella!Mi sono piaciuti i ritratti che parlavano e si muovevano!Mi ha fatto paura il cappello che ha parlato quando Pulcinella se lo è messo sulla testa!Adesso abbiamo voglia di vedere il sequel!Mi ha commosso il coraggio di Colombina quando è andata da Kulala per trovare il sonno di Arlecchina!Ci ha emozionato molto la battaglia con i draghi!Mi sarebbero piaciute più esplosioni!Mi ha dato un po' fastidio l'accento dei texani...Ci ha fatto venire la pelle d'oca la macchina che volava!Ci ha deluso un po' la scena con i furetti parlanti...Mi è piaciuta molto la square dance dei Balanzone!A me è piaciuto il popcorn!EnglishAd for Arlecchino and the Order of the Philosopher's Stone Some movie-goers respond: Movies about magic have always fascinated me.I liked the toucans that brought them the mail.The store where Arlecchino bought the wand, I found it charming!The train that took them to Verruchesuine interests me a lot...The monkeys disgusted my girlfriend, but I liked them!It's important to me that a movie send a serious message to young people.I really liked the serenade that that guy sang under the sea! What's his na--ah, Pulcinella! We love that Pulcinella!I liked the portraits that talked and moved!The hat that talked when Pulcinella put it on his head scared me!Now we feel like seeing the sequel!I was moved by Colombina's courage when she went to Kulala to find Arlecchina's sleep!We were very excited about the battle with the dragons!I would have liked more explosions!I was annoyed a bit by the Texans' accent...The car that flew gave me goose-bumps!The scene with the talking ferrets disappointed us a little.I loved the Balanzones' square dance!I liked the popcorn!

asset title: Episode 16: Likes and Dislikes - On the red carpet filename: ra_16.mp3 track number: 16/22 time: 19:31 size: 16.01 MB bitrate: 112 kbps In Episode 16 of Radio Arlecchino, On the red carpet, we will learn about the verb piacere and how to express likes and dislikes. To an English speaker, the piacere construction is often confusing, for the subject in Italian is the person or thing that is pleasing, while the person who likes it is the indirect object! Eric and Antonella are in Venice for the premiere of Arlecchino's exciting new film. Will our friend turn out to be the next great wizard of the cinema? Let's listen ...Dialog: ItalianI. Spettacolo StaseraAntonella: Mi piacciono tanto le prime dei film! Andiamo, Eric, sbrighiamoci!Eric: Vengo! Speriamo che questo dispositivo funzioni questa volta...Benvenuti a Spettacolo Stasera! con Antonella Olson e Eric Edwards!Antonella: Ciao a tutti i nostri radioascoltatori. Stasera si tratta di una serata veramente particolare.Eric: Siamo qui a VeneziaAntonella: E devo dire che stasera la città è tutt'altro che serenissimaEric: È vero, è un ambiente pieno di emozioni e di aspettative.Antonella: Un pubblico esaltato sta per vedere per la prima volta il film Arlecchino e l'ordine della pietra filosofale della camera segreta del prigioniero mezzosangue del principe dei calici di fuoco.Eric: Regia di ArlecchinoAntonella: sceneggiatura di ArlecchinoEric: basato su un romanzo inedito di ArlecchinoAntonella: con ArlecchinoEric: e la partecipazione stellare di PulcinellaAntonella: ColombinaEric: PantaloneAntonella: ArlecchinaEric: e il Dottor BalanzoneAntonella: Siamo qui accanto al rinomato tappeto rosso dove saremo gli occhi e le orecchie del nostro gentile pubblico per l'arrivo di ogni star Eric: E questa gondola che arriva adesso...?Antonella: Il passeggero è alto, magro, barba appuntita con risvoltoEric: Lunga zimarra neraAntonella: Calzamaglia rossaEric: Il gondeliere gli porge la manoAntonella: Il signore fa finta di niente e scende senza lasciare una manciaEric: Pantalone! Signor Pantalone de' Bisognosi!Antonella: Signor Pantalone, buona sera! Non Le piacerebbe rivolgere qualche parola al nostro pubblico internazionale?Pantalone: 'Facendo il Bergamasco e il VinizianoAndiam in ogni parteE il recitar commedie è la nostr'arte.'Antonella: Magnifico!Pantalone: Mi dica.Antonella: Ci hanno detto che oltre alla Sua partecipazione come attore, Lei è uno dei principali investitori in questo progetto cinematografico del collega Arlecchino.Pantalone: Che io sappia, sono l'unico investitore. Quindi spero che vi piacciano eccome queste pietre filosofali, questi calici di fuoco, perché altrimenti...Eric: Arriva un'altra gondola!Antonella: Ma chi è? Con questa folla non vedo niente.Eric: Neanch'io. Cerchiamo di avvicinarci...Qualcuno nella folla: Eccoli! Stanno per scendere!Sig.ra Balanzone: Sta' ben attento, Balanzone! Non -- Aiuto!Qualcuno nella folla: Che cosa è successo!Sig.ra Balanzone: Oh! Balanzone!Una spettatrice: Fate largo! Lasciatelo respirare!Uno spettatore: Un dottore! C'è un dottore?Sig.ra Balanzone: Lui è dottore!Una spettatrice: Io so fare la rianimazione bocca a bocca!Uno spettatore: Sono diplomato nella manovra Heimlich!Sig.ra Balanzone: Per carità! Qualcuno telefoni subito al pronto soccorso, per favore!Antonella: Spettacolo Stasera tornerà fra poco. Ecco ora un messaggio importante da uno dei nostri sponsor.Dottore: Buona sera a tutti! Qui il vostro vecchio amico il Dottore, appena tornato da una tournée nel Texas, dove ho scoperto una delizia del vecchio West. Come mi sono piaciuti quegli hamburger texani! E ora sono lieto di presentarvi la nuova... eh, incarnazione... di questa specialità. Il Panino Piacere.Dialog: EnglishOn the Red Carpet Antonella: I really like movie premieres! Come on, Eric, hurry up!Eric: I'm coming! Let's hope this gizmo works this time. Welcome to Spettacolo Stasera! with Antonella Olson and Eric Edwards!Antonella: Hello to all our radio listeners. Tonight is truly a special evening.Eric: We're here in Venice.Antonella: And I have to say that tonight the city is anything but most serene.Eric: It's true, there's an atmosphere of excitement and anticipation.Antonella: An anxious public is about to see for the first time the film Arlecchino and the Order of the Philosopher's Stone of the Secret Chamber of the Half-Blood Prisoner of the Prince of the Goblet of Fire.Eric: Directed by ArlecchinoAntonella: screenplay by ArlecchinoEric: based on an unpublished novel by ArlecchinoAntonella: with ArlecchinoEric: and stellar appearances by PulcinellaAntonella: ColombinaEric: PantaloneAntonella: ArlecchinaEric: and Doctor BalanzoneAntonella: We're here alongside the renowned red carpet where we will be the eyes and ears of our kind audience for the arrival of every star.Eric: And this gondola that's pulling up now...?Antonella: The passenger is tall, slender, upturned pointed beardEric: Long black cloakAntonella: Red tightsEric: The gondolier is holding out his handAntonella: The gentleman pretends not to notice and disembarks without leaving a tip.Eric: Pantalone! Mr Pantalone de' Bisognosi!Antonella: Mr Pantalone, good evening! Wouldn't you like to say a few words to our international audience?Pantalone: 'As Bergamasque and VenetianWe wander the world spreading our fame,For playing excellent comedy is the name of our fine little game.'Antonella: Splendid!Pantalone: Yes?Antonella: We've been told that in addition to your participation as an actor, you are one of the principal investors in this motion picture project of your colleague Arlecchino.Pantalone: As far as I know, I am the only investor. So I hope you like these philosophers' stones, these goblets of fire--and how!--for otherwise...Eric: Here comes another gondola!Antonella: Who is it? With this crowd I can't see anything.Eric: Me either. Let's try to get closer...Someone in the Crowd: Here they are! They're about to alight!Mrs Balanzone: Now you be careful, Balanzone! Don't -- Help!Someone in the Crowd: What's happened?Mrs Balanzone: Oh! Balanzone!An Onlooker: Make way! Let him breathe!Another Onlooker: A doctor! Is there a doctor?Mrs Balanzone: He is a doctor!A Spectator: I know how to do mouth-to-mouth resuscitation!Another Spectator: I'm licensed to perform the Heimlich maneuver!Mrs Balanzone: For Heaven's sake! Someone phone for emergency help right away, please!Antonella: Spettacolo Stasera will be back in a moment. Now here's an important message from one of our sponsors.Dottore: Good evening, everyone! It's your old friend, the Dottore, just back from a tour of Texas, where I discovered a treat from the old West. Do I ever like those Texas hamburgers! And now I'm happy to present to you the new... uh, incarnation.... of this specialty, The Pleasure SandwichDialog: ItalianII. In ospedaleEric: Antonella, ci sei?Antonella: Sì Eric, eccomi! Gentili ascoltatori, bentornati! Mi dispiace dovervelo dire, ma siamo qui all'ospedale La Fenice, dove il Dottor Balanzone è stato portato dopo il suo incidente. Eh sì, è caduto proprio davanti al cinema dove avrebbe assistito alla prima del nuovo film di Arlecchino...Sig.ra Balanzone: Ah, mi bel Balanzaun... mio Balanzonino caro...!Antonella: Stiamo parlando con la signora Balanzone. Fra poco speriamo di avere qualche notizia dal medico. Eric: E come sta la signora?Antonella: Signora Balanzone, ci permette di farLe qualche domanda?Sig.ra Balanzone: Per la radio?Antonella: Sì, signora... Spettacolo Stasera... va in onda su Radio Arlecchino.Sig.ra Balanzone. Ben mo sicuro... Solo un attimino, per favore.Mi dica.Antonella: Ci hanno detto che Lei e il Dottore eravate appena tornati dall'America quando siete arrivati oggi a Venezia per la prima.Sig.ra Balanzone. È vero. Eravamo in Texas per fare pubblicità al film. Forse gli ascoltatori sanno che alcune scene sono state girate ad Austin...Antonella: E come avete trovato lo Stato della Stella Solitaria?Sig.ra Balanzone. Mo ci è piaciuto moltissimo! E chiaramente la cucina texana ha affascinato il Dottore. Con Pantalone e la What-a-Pleasure hanno firmato un contratto per aggiungere il Pasto Arlecchino al loro menu di 'pasti allegri' per i bambini... Con ogni piccolo Pleasure Burger un pupazzo di Arlecchino, o una bambolina di Arlecchina...Antonella: Oh, mi piace molto questa di Arlecchina, che carina...Sig.ra Balanzone. Il Dottore si era portato questi Pasti Arlecchino da mangiare durante l'intervallo del film... A me non piacciono così tanto come a mio marito... Gliene posso offrire uno?Antonella: Grazie, mi piacerebbe molto assaggiarne uno, forse dopo la trasmissione. Altri ricordi memorabili oltre al marketing?Sig.ra Balanzone. Oh sì, la cosa più bella è stata imparare a ballare la square dance! Non può immaginare quanto sia emozionante! Pochi lo sanno, ma il Dottore è proprio un gran bravo ballerino!Antonella: Chi l'avrebbe detto...?Sig.ra Balanzone. Nessuno! Ma ora con il film... Oh, non resisto più alla tentazione di svelare questo segreto! La scena chiave del film di Arlecchino è proprio una danza! Sono sicura che Le piacerà vedere come il Dottore ed io conquistiamo il West con la nostra square dance!Antonella: Non vediamo l'ora --il Dottor Ibbardi: Buona sera, signore. Sono il dottor Ibbardi. Quale di voi è la signora Balanzone?Sig.ra Balanzone. Oh, dottore! Asomme! Sono io! Come sta mio marito?il Dottor Ibbardi: Purtroppo la situazione è piuttosto seria e non mi piace per niente...Sig.ra Balanzone. Eh ben ben!il Dottor Ibbardi: Quando Suo marito è scivolato sul tappeto rosso --Sig.ra Balanzone: Sì...?il Dottor Ibbardi: ed è caduto, ha subito una grave lesione alla sua dignità.Antonella: quindi, la diagnosi, dottore?il Dottor Ibbardi: Gluteus addoloratus!Sig.ra Balanzone: e la prognosi, dottore?il Dottor Ibbardi: Gli abbiamo dato un sedativo. Prima di addormentarsi ha detto qualcosa che non ho capito... che gli sarebbe piaciuto che gli portassimo un Pasto Arlecchino.Sig.ra Balanzone. Puvratt!il Dottor Ibbardi: e domani cominceremo una lunga e costosissima serie di trattamenti e fisioterapie.Sig.ra Balanzone. Sì, mo questi trattamenti, queste fisioterapie... al povero Dottore daranno molto fastidio?il Dottor Ibbardi: Non si preoccupi, signora. Li ho amministrati tante volte ormai nella mia carriera e mi sono abituato. Non mi faranno nessun male, Le assicuro.Sig.ra Balanzone. Mo a dire il vero, dottore, io intendevo --Eric: Grazie mille, Antonella! Dobbiamo tornare ora allo studio! Grazie anche a tutti i nostri gentili radioascoltatori! Alla prossima edizione di Spettacolo Stasera!Dialog: EnglishAt the Hospital Eric: Antonella, are you there?Antonella: Yes, Eric, here I am! Dear listeners, welcome back! I'm sorry to have to tell you, but we're here at La Fenice Hospital, where Doctor Balanzone was brought following his accident. Ah yes, he fell right in front of the movie theatre where he was to attend the premiere of Arlecchino's new film...Mrs Balanzone: Ah, my beloved Balanzone!Antonella: We're talking to Mrs Balanzone. Soon we hope to have some news from the physician.Eric: And how is Mrs Balanzone?Antonella: Mrs Balanzone, may we ask you some questions?Mrs Balanzone: For the radio?Antonella: Yes, ma'am... Spettacolo Stasera... on the air on Radio Arlecchino.Mrs Balanzone: Why, certainly... Just a bit of a moment, please.Yes, go ahead.Antonella: We've heard that you and the Dottore had just returned from America when you arrived today in Venice for the premiere.Mrs Balanzone: That's right. We were in Texas to publicize the movie. Your listeners might know that some scenes were shot in Austin.Antonella: And what did you think of the Lone Star State?Mrs Balanzone: Oh, we loved it! And of course Texas cuisine captivated the Dottore. With Pantalone and What-a-Pleasure they've signed a contract to add the Arlecchino Meal to their menu of 'cheerful meals' for children. With each little Pleasure Burger an Arlecchino figure or an Arlecchina doll.Antonella: Oh, I really like this one of Arlecchina, it's so sweet...Mrs Balanzone: The Dottore brought these Arlecchino meals along to eat during the intermission of the movie... I don't like them as much as my husband does... May I offer you one?Antonella: Thank you, I really would like to try one, perhaps after the broadcast. Any other memorable moments aside from the marketing?Mrs Balanzone: Oh yes, the most wonderful thing was learning to square dance. You can't imagine how exciting! Few people know this, but the Dottore is really quite a fine dancer!Antonella: Who would have guessed...?Mrs Balanzone: Nobody! But now with the movie... Oh, I can't resist the temptation to reveal this secret any longer! The key scene in Arlecchino's movie is in fact a dance! I just know you'll like seeing how the Dottore and I win the West with our square dance!Antonella: We can't wait--Dr Ibbardi: Good evening, ladies. I'm Dr Ibbardi. Which of you is Mrs Balanzone?Mrs Balanzone: Oh, doctor! It's me! How is my husband?Dr Ibbardi: Unfortunately the situation is rather serious and it doesn't please me at all.Mrs Balanzone: Goodness gracious!Dr Ibbardi: When your husband slipped on the red carpet and fell, he suffered a serious injury to his dignity.Antonella: So, the diagnosis, Doctor?Dr Ibbardi: Gluteus addoloratus!Mrs Balanzone: And the prognosis, Doctor?Dr Ibbardi: We've given him a sedative. Before he fell asleep, though, he said something I didn't understand... that he would like for us to bring him an Arlecchino Meal.Mrs Balanzone: Poor thing!Dr Ibbardi: and tomorrow we will begin a long and very costly series of treatments and physical therapies.Mrs Balanzone: Oh, but these treatments, these physical therapies... will they cause the poor Doctor a great deal of discomfort?Dr Ibbardi: Don't worry, ma'am. I've administered them many times now during my career and I've grown accustomed to them. They won't hurt me at all, I assure you.Mrs Balanzone: Well, actually, Doctor, I meant --Eric: Thanks a million, Antonella! We must now return to the studio! Thanks also to our gentle listeners! We'll talk to you again on the next edition of Spettacolo Stasera!

Featured Topicwas inspired by overwhelming response to the contest question we posed last week, "Who do you think is hot?"  So this ep, we had fun talking about the "Ingredients of Hotness."  (Pictured L-R: Siena with Ellie Mae, the Animal Acres Gala grounds before soundcheck, Toast with Taco and Peabody)Ongoing ContestThe Prize: our newest headshot for MAKENA, signed + all the musical CDs MAKENA has recorded so farEnter by: telling us who you think is hot, in the comments below, or by emailing us at (mail at girlmeetsgirlpodcast dot com) Links in this EpLei's Hawaiian BBQTwo World Collision blog by Eric"It's a MAKENA World" photo group on FlickrSteven EspaniolaAnimal AcresMonday Morning News blog by AmandaThank you for voting for GMG at PodcastAlleyOne more week for this contest.  Who do you think is hot?  (Don't worry, nobody will think you're shallow ;)  Comment below if you dare.  You may need to enter the "code" twice for your comment to be shown.

asset title: Episode 9: Imperative - Build a better mousetrap filename: ra_09.mp3 track number: 9/22 time: 9:42 size: 7.96 MB bitrate: 112 kbps In Build a better mousetrap, we will focus on the tu forms of the imperative -- the most frequently used. While the tu forms of second- and third-conjugation verbs are the same as the present indicative, the forms for first-conjugation verbs are different. The imperative for these is the present indicative stem + -a, as in guarda! (look!). The second anomaly is in the negative command form, where non is placed in front of the infinitive of the verb rather than in front of the imperative verb. Let's listen as the Dottore demonstrates the new anti-mouse technology of the TopoKill 9000, a supertrap capable of catching more than a mouse!Dialog: TopoKill 9000Italian-------Dottore: Gentili ascoltatori, qui il vostro amico il Dottor Balanzone. Questa situazione vi è conosciuta? Non vi vergognate di dirmelo, lo so, lo so ... Colombina: Oh, Dottore, che orrore! che paura! che schifo!Dottore: Come dico ai miei allievi all'Università, 'Pudor non in habere sed in tenere est.'Colombina: E la soluzione, Egregio ...?Dottore: Eccola qua! La nuova TopoKill 9000! La tecnologia anti-topo presenta una supertrappola, senza pesticidi, che rispetta l'ambiente, riutilizzabile, con esca naturale!Colombina: Ma ci vuole molto tempo per--Dottore: È pronta nel giro di secondi!Colombina: Ed è di uso semp--Dottore: Di semplicissimo uso!Colombina: Ma funziona veram---Dottore: Efficientissima!Colombina: E ... non ci sono ... cioè ...Dottore: Igienica!Colombina: Ma per i bambini.--Dottore: Innocua per i bambini e gli animali domestici!Colombina: Oh, Dottore. questa nuova TopoKill 9000 mi sembra una meraviglia! Ma Lei crede che io sia in grado di utilizzarla correttamente?Dottore: Niente sarebbe più facile! Vieni, mia cara. Osserva cosa vuol dire 'semplicissimo uso'!Colombina: Oh, non lo so ... io, a dire il vero ... è che io ...Dottore: Non avere paura! Abbi coraggio! Eccola! Vedi quanto è bella! Dai, prendi.Colombina: Oh! E ora, come si fa ...?Dottore: Spingi la levetta ...Colombina: Così?Dottore: Brava! Spingila verso il basso .... Ecco! Benissimo! Colombina: Oh1 È facile ...English-------Dottore: Kind listeners, your friend Dottor Balanzone here. Is this situation familiar to you? Don't be ashamed to tell me so. I know, I know ...Colombina: Oh, Dottore, how horrible! How frightening! How disgusting!Dottore: As I tell my students at the University: 'The shame is not in the having, but in the keeping.'Colombina: And the solution, Professor?Dottore: Behold! The new TopoKill 9000! Anti-mouse technology presents a supertrap, without pesticides, that respects the environment, re-usable, with all-natural bait!Colombina: But does it take long to--Dottore: It's ready in a matter of seconds!Colombina: And is it simple to u--Dottore: Ever so easy to use!Colombina: But does it really wo---Dottore: Extremely efficient!Colombina: And, there aren't any, I mean ...Dottore: Sanitary!Colombina: But to children.--Dottore: Harmless to children and pets!Colombina: Oh, Dottore, this new TopoKill 9000 seems a marvel! But do you believe that I'm capable of using it properly?Dottore: Nothing could be easier! Come, my dear. Observe what 'Ever so easy to use' really means!Colombina: Oh, I don't know ... I, to tell the truth, it's that I ...Dottore: Do not be afraid! Have courage! Here it is! See how beautiful it is! Come on, take (it).Colombina: Oh! And now, what does one do?Dottore: Push the trigger ...Colombina: Like this?Dottore: Fine! Push it down .... There! Excellent! Colombina: Oh1 It's easy ...Dottore: And what had I told you? Now, remove the bait cover ...Colombina: Ah! Done! Dottore: Perfect! The TopoKill 9000 is now ready to be used! Place the trap in an appropriate place ...Colombina: Mice rarely cross open surfaces ...Dottore: So, set the trap with the opening turned to the wall!Colombina: Here? Like that?Dottore: Right there, fine. Just like that ...Colombina: And now?Dottore: Perform a check at regular intervals!Colombina: Gracious!Dottore: Pulcinella! Zounds!We must point out that the use of spaghetti as bait is inadvisable.Colombina: But, Dottore, what shall I do now to free this wretch's finger?Dottore: Simply press down rapidly on the little door ...And the TopoKill 9000 is already ready to be re-used!Colombina: Poor Pulcinella! Come with me. Don't cry any more ...Dottore: Dear listener: Get the TopoKill 9000 and say as the Dottore says --Mus musculus, Hail -- and Farewell!Dialog: A phone call from Antonella in ItalyItalian-------Eric: Pronto...Antonella: Ciao, Eric! Sono Antonella!Eric: Ciao, bella! Come stai?Antonella: Bene, bene... va ora in onda Radio Arlecchino?Eric: Va in onda, sì! Meno male che ci sei anche tu, ora, telefonicamente...Antonella: Grazie. Senti, fammi un favore, per favore.Eric: Come no! Dimmi.Antonella: Ho lasciato una cosa lì nello studio che volevo portare in Italia. Aiutami ora a trovarlo, poi me lo spedisci...Eric: Va bene... Dov'è?Antonella: Dunque... Guarda, vai alla mia scrivania...Eric: Ci vado... ecco, ci sono.Antonella: Sposta quel grande dizionario Zarganti...Eric: Oh, è proprio pesante! Spero che non sia questo quello che ti serve...Antonella: No no no, sotto il dizionario -- cosa c'è?Eric: Be', ci sono due foto, una di Nanni Moretti... e una di -- Johnny Depp?! firmate pure! 'ad Antonella, con amicizia...'Antonella: No no no no no, quelle non le toccare... . Lascia quel libro....Eric: Allora?Antonella: Sopra la scrivania, su quello scaffale... Prendi quella scatola...Eric: Cosa c'è dentro...?Antonella: Dai, dai, svita il cappuccio...Eric: Ahù... Antonella... ma cos'è questo?Antonella: Oh, scusa, hai preso quella sbagliata, scusa, scusa... Ci dev'essere un'altra, controlla.Eric: La vedo, ma oso aprirla?Antonella: Ma sì! Abbi coraggio, Eric!Eric: Accidenti!Antonella: Oh, Eric! Che mani di pasta frolla che hai! Quelli sono i miei fagioli saltellanti!Eric: Te li mando?Antonella: No, no, quelli non mi servono! Ma mi raccomando, non li lasciare lì per terra!Eric: Adesso pulisco...Antonella: Bene, Eric, non fare più sciocchezze. Prova a vedere nel cassetto...Eric: Va bene...Antonella: Se è lì, è proprio in fondo, in fondo... dietro tutte quelle cartelle... Stendi la mano, allunga...Eric: Ma-- Ah-- Antonella: Eric! Se c'è un topo, buttalo via! Che schifo!Eric: Ormai si sarà spaventato...Antonella: Senti, Eric, ti richiamo dopo. Mi restano pochissimi minuti sulla mia scheda...Eric: D'accordo, tanto, io devo trovare un'aspirina... Arisentirci.Antonella: A presto, mio caro...English-------A phone call from Antonella in ItalyEric: Hello ...Antonella: Ciao, Eric! It's Antonella!Eric: Ciao, bella! How are you?Antonella: Fine, fine ... is Radio Arlecchino on the air?Eric: It's on the air, yes! And it's a good thing you're here now too, telephonically ...Antonella: Thanks. Listen, do me a favor, please.Eric: Of course! Tell me.Antonella: I left something there in thet studio that I wanted to bring to Italy. Help me now to find it ... then you can send it to me.Eric: All right. Where is it?Antonella: Well then .... Look, go to my desk ...Eric: I'm going ... I'm there.Antonella: Move that big Zarganti dictionary ...Eric: Hey, that's pretty heavy! I hope that isn't what you need ...Antonella: No no no, under the dictionary. What's there?Eric: Well, there's two photographs, one of Nanni Moretti, and one of -- Johnny Depp?! Autographed even! 'to Antonella, in friendship ...'Be', ci sono due foto, una di Nanni Moretti ... e una di -- Johnny Depp?! firmate pure! 'ad Antonella, con amicizia ...'Antonella: No no no no no, don't touch those .... Let go of that book ....Eric: Now what?Antonella: Over the desk, on that shelf ... Grab that can.Eric: What's in it ...?Antonella: Go on, go on, unscrew the lid ...Eric: Yow ... Antonella ... what is this?Antonella: Oh, sorry, you grabbed the wrong one, sorry, sorry ... There must be another one, check it out.Eric: I see it, but do I dare to open it?Antonella: Of course! Be brave, Eric! (Have courage!)Eric: Yikes!Antonella: Oh, Eric! What a butterfingers you are! Those are my jumping beans!Eric: Shall I send them to you?Antonella: No, no, I don't need those. But please, don't leave them there on the ground!Eric: I'll clean up now ...Antonella: Good, Eric, no more foolishness (Don't do any more foolish things). Try looking in the drawer ...Eric: All right ...Antonella: If it's there, it's way in the back, behind all those folders .... Reach out your hand ... Stretch ...Eric: Ma-- Ah--Antonella: Eric! If there's a mouse, throw it out! Gross!Eric: By now he'll be frightened ...Antonella: Listen, Eric, I'll call you back later. I have very few minutes left on my card ...Eric: Fine, I've got to find an aspirin anyway .... Talk to you later.Antonella: Soon, my dear ...