Podcast appearances and mentions of Heidi K Brown

Introverted and shy attorneys, this episode is for you! Discover the key differences between introversion and shyness, gain practical tips to overcome performance anxiety, and learn how to harness your natural strengths to thrive in the legal profession with episode highlights from Heidi Brown, professor at Brooklyn Law and author of The Introverted Lawyer. Plus, don't miss the heartfelt conversation with Rio Lane from ALPS Insurance on why “fake it till you make it” isn't always the best approach and how lawyer wellbeing is essential for success.   Hear the original episode with Heidi K. Brown.

Introverted and shy attorneys, this episode is for you! Discover the key differences between introversion and shyness, gain practical tips to overcome performance anxiety, and learn how to harness your natural strengths to thrive in the legal profession with episode highlights from Heidi Brown, professor at Brooklyn Law and author of The Introverted Lawyer. Plus, don't miss the heartfelt conversation with Rio Lane from ALPS Insurance on why “fake it till you make it” isn't always the best approach and how lawyer wellbeing is essential for success.   Hear the original episode with Heidi K. Brown. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of the Human Rights Podcast, we meet Heidi K Brown, professor at New York Law School. Heidi is currently in Italy to write a new book. We talk about freedom of speech and opinion, how to confront and overcome your fears, stop being afraid of making mistakes and what boxing has to do with law. In addition, we talk about leadership and about being rooted in one's values ​​and what importance this has for a culture in the workplace.

I detta avsnitt av Människorättspodden möter vi Heidi K Brown, professor vid New York Law School. Heidi befinner sig för tillfället i Italien för att skriva på en ny bok. Vi pratar om yttrandefrihet och åsiktsfrihet, hur man kan konfrontera och övervinna sina rädslor, sluta vara rädd att göra misstag och vad boxning har med juridik att göra. Dessutom samtalar vi om ledarskap och om att bli rotad i sina värderingar och vilken betydelse det har för en kultur på arbetsplatsen.

Daily, entertainment lawyers are bombarded with marketing messages that, with GenAI, we can and should be doing all our lawyering tasks at the speed of light. Entertainment lawyer Kirk Schroder talks with Heidi K. Brown, Professor and Associate Dean for Upper Level Writing at New York Law School, about giving ourselves permission to first decelerate, ease up on the throttle that's materialized in our hands, and unhurriedly practice using GenAI writing tools (and AI-driven legal research tools) to generate high-quality legal work. Professor Brown will share techniques and strategies for “shaking hands with” and introducing ourselves to these potentially transformative tools and incorporating them into our workflow in a way that does not short-change depth with velocity. Please note, the positions and opinions expressed by the speakers are strictly their own, and do not necessarily represent the views of their employers, nor those of the D.C. Bar, its Board of Governors or co-sponsoring Communities and organizations. (1) Heidi's blog on "shaking hands" with the chatbots: Shaking Hands with Generative AI Chatbots | by Heidi K. Brown | Jan, 2024 | Medium(2) Heidi's blog on applying the medical profession's teaching/learning model to legal writing: Enhancing GenAI Writing Output Through “See One, Do One, Teach One” | by Heidi K. Brown | Feb, 2024 | Medium (3) Professors Ethan and Lilach Mollick of Wharton, Practical AI for Instructors and Students Part 1: Introduction to AI for Teachers and Students: https://youtu.be/t9gmyvf7JYo(4) Write.law's course: W7: GPT for Legal Writers(5) Writing.io's AI Courses: Home | Writing.io Academy(6) Jordan Furlong's article about the newest lawyer competence: quality control Jordan Furlong | Substack(7) Professor Scott Graham's article on new GenAI skills we need to teach and learn: Composition Studies 51.1 (Spring 2023) (wordpress.com) (8) Heidi's website with links to all her books: www.theflourishinglawyer.org (9) Litigation, Comparison Table - Federal ...ding Orders on Artificial Intelligence (blackboardcdn.com) This is the spreadsheet summarizing all the judges' standing orders on the use of AI in court filings--across the country--as of 1/30/24(10) This is a good reference for all the cases so far in which lawyers have been reprimanded for improperly using AI in court filings: Beware the Legal Bot: Spooky Stories of AI in the Courtroom - AI Law Librarians Thank you to our sponsor!⁠ LawPay⁠ was developed specifically to help law firms streamline billings and collections, providing a simple, secure solution for legal clients to pay their bills. LawPay is the industry leader in legal payments, providing a cost-effective solution for more than 50,000 law firms around the country.

Heidi K. Brown is the Associate Dean for Upper Level Writing at the New York Law School and a former litigator in the construction industry. As a University of Virginia School of Law graduate, she earned her master's degree in applied positive psychology in 2021. Heidi is an internationally recognized speaker and the author of three books about lawyer and law student well-being, including The Introverted Lawyer, Untangling Fear in Lawyering, and The Flourishing Lawyer. Having struggled with performance anxiety as a law student, attorney, and new law professor, Heidi untangled her fears and embraced authenticity as a powerful asset in teaching and practicing law. She advocates for openly discussing stressors, anxieties, and fears in the legal profession.  Heidi has garnered several awards for her work, including recognition for outstanding contributions to well-being and legal education from the Association of American Law School's section on balancing well-being and legal education. She helps quiet and anxious law students and lawyers harness individual strengths to become advocates for work and achieve optimal performance and well-being.  In this episode… When facing public speaking anxiety and other stressors, lawyers and law students are often told to fake it until they make it or simply conquer their fears. Yet this advice is futile for introverts who rely on quiet spaces to recharge. How can lawyers (whether or not they are introverts) overcome these anxieties by leveraging their authentic personas, and how can law firm leaders support this practice? Having wrestled with introversion, social anxiety, and shyness, legal well-being advocate Heidi K. Brown struggled to overcome deeply embedded fears of judgment and criticism that caused her to shut down. After researching these widespread experiences, she learned that while these lawyers often can't perform in the same manner as their extroverted counterparts, they can harness unique skills through legal writing and creative problem-solving to gain confidence and execute their authentic selves. This requires deconstructing fears by identifying their physical manifestations. When law firm leaders encourage creativity and authenticity, they benefit from optimal performance, potential, and intelligence. In today's episode of The Lawyer's Edge Podcast, Elise Holtzman interviews Heidi K. Brown, a prolific author on how lawyers thrive and the Associate Dean for Upper Level Writing at the New York Law School, about promoting lawyer and law students' performance and well-being. Heidi describes the difference between introversion and shyness, how she honed an authentic public speaking persona, and notable takeaways from her books.

It's Halloween! What better time to talk about FEAR!!!??? Many think fear is the great motivator, but it can also be the great debilitator.  Fear prevents lawyers from "going for it" at sentencing and making the extraordinary ask on behalf of their clients.  Fear also prevents those clients from communicating their own truth on the big day.   Therefore, helping us get Set For Sentencing is Prof. Heidi K. Brown, author of “Untangling Fear in Lawyering”.  She's here to tell us how to let go of fear and help our clients do the same.  Prof. Brown teaches legal writing at New York Law School, she's an acclaimed author, speaker, avid boxer and rabid U2 fan.   IN THIS EPISODE:   Prof. Brown's 4-step process for "untangling fear"; Understanding "somatic intelligence" how our bodies react to fear; Tips for physically preparing for a stressful interaction (like a court appearance); Tips for helping client's prepare for stressful moments in their case; How the “sweet science” of boxing can save your soul; The connection between fear and creativity; Lawyer wellness; How fear impacts non-verbal communication.   LINKS:   https://www.theflourishinglawyer.org/ Heidi K. Brown on Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/theflourishinglawyer/ Heidi K. Brown on Twitter: https://twitter.com/introvertlawyer   One of the reasons I was drawn to Prof. Brown's work was the 3-part podcast series I did on "FEARLESS LAWYERING".  These are all examples of brave lawyers who shot for the moon at sentencing and acheived astounding results.  If you haven't heard those episodes, check them out:   Fearless Lawyering Vol. 3: New Mexico Attorney Joel Meyers gets a mind-blowing result in a career-offender high level drug trafficking offense: https://setforsentencing.com/podcast/joelmeyers/   Fearless Lawyering Vol. 2:  Asst. Federal Defender Kara Hartzler helps expose the racist history of federal immigration laws:  https://setforsentencing.com/podcast/racist1326/   Fearless Lawyering Vol. 1: Asst. Federal Defender Sharon Hicks gets probation on a resentencing for a DUI/Manslaughter case: https://setforsentencing.com/podcast/fearlesslawyer1/

In this episode, Joanna welcomes guest, Prof. Heidi K. Brown. Heidi is a graduate of University of Virginia School of Law, an Associate Dean for upper level writing at New York Law School, a former Litigator in the construction industry, and the author of a number of books including The Introverted Lawyer, Untangling the Fear of Lawyering,and The Flourishing Lawyer.   Tune in as Joanna and Heidi engage in fascinating conversations about self-discovery, self-development, what led Heidi to the path of focusing on performance anxiety in Law, and more. Heidi also shares the techniques she adopted to maintain her authenticity and avoid hiding behind her introversion or using it as an excuse for inaction.   KEY POINTS:   Moving from 'faking it 'til you make it' to 'acting as if' Heidi Brown's four ways to flourish as an Introvert The importance of discovering yourself and your strengths   PRODUCTS / RESOURCES:   Email your suggested topics to Joanna@flourishingintroverts.com   What Type of Introvert are you? Find out by taking this quiz: yourintroverttype.co.uk   Visit Joanna's website here: flourishingintroverts.com   Join the Flourishing Introverts Facebook community of like-minded Introverts here: web.facebook.com/groups/Introvertscorner

In this episode, Michael and Tessa spoke with Heidi K. Brown, attorney, author and professor, about positive psychology in law and embracing authenticity. Heidi Brown is an NYC-based attorney, full-time professor at New York Law School and a 7x (!) author - her most recent book is called The Flourishing Lawyer. 'Having grappled with extreme performance anxiety as a law student, attorney, and new law professor, Heidi ultimately untangled her fears, and embraced authenticity as a powerful asset in teaching and practicing law'. Read Heidi's full bio here.Enjoy!To stay connected and continue the conversation, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.And don't forget to check out our previous episodes for more tips and strategies to boost your workplace happiness. You can find them on your favorite podcast platform or on our website.If you have any questions, comments, or topic suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you!Stay inspired, stay motivated, and stay happy at work!

Professor Heidi is a skilled lawyer who has also overcome her own fears of public speaking, social anxiety, and shyness. In her talks, she offers valuable insights and practical tips for untangling these common challenges in the context of public speaking. Drawing on her own experiences, she shares candidly about the struggles she faced and the strategies that helped her overcome them. Through her inspiring stories and compassionate approach, Professor Heidi hopes to empower others to conquer their fears and find confidence in their own public speaking abilities. Biography Professor Brown joined Brooklyn Law School as Director of the Legal Writing Program in 2016. A prolific scholar and author on the art and science of legal writing, she has published four books on predictive and persuasive legal writing and federal litigation, as well as numerous scholarly articles for law journals. She has written three books about well-being and thriving in the legal profession: The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven-Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy  Untangling Fear in Lawyering: A Four-Step Journey Toward Powerful Advocacy  The Flourishing Lawyer: A Multi-Dimensional Approach to Performance and Well-Being Inspired by her own experience untangling fear of public speaking during her litigation career, she is passionate about helping law students and lawyers “find their authentic lawyer voices” and overcome anxiety about Socratic legal discourse and performance-based lawyering tasks. Prior to joining the Law School, Brown served as Associate Professor of Law at New York Law School, where she taught in the school's Legal Practice program. Before that, she was an Associate Professor of Legal Research and Writing at the Chapman University Dale E. Fowler School of Law in Orange, California. Heidi Brown has more than two decades of experience in law practice, studies Italian and has taught legal writing at the University of Trento in Trento, Italy and at Tuscia University in Viterbo, Italy. She received her bachelor's degree in foreign affairs and French language/literature from the University of Virginia, and her J.D. from the University of Virginia School of Law. In 2021, she received a Master in Applied Positive Psychology (MAPP) degree from the University of Pennsylvania. Heidi Bown will be joining New York Law School as the Associate Dean for Upper-Level Legal Writing this summer. It is worth noting that she was awarded the 2023 Association of American Law Schools' Section on Balance and Well-being for her outstanding contributions towards well-being in legal education through her books.

Professor Heidi is a skilled lawyer who has also overcome her own fears of public speaking, social anxiety, and shyness. In her talks, she offers valuable insights and practical tips for untangling these common challenges in the context of public speaking. Drawing on her own experiences, she shares candidly about the struggles she faced and the strategies that helped her overcome them. Through her inspiring stories and compassionate approach, Professor Heidi hopes to empower others to conquer their fears and find confidence in their own public speaking abilities. Biography Professor Brown joined Brooklyn Law School as Director of the Legal Writing Program in 2016. A prolific scholar and author on the art and science of legal writing, she has published four books on predictive and persuasive legal writing and federal litigation, as well as numerous scholarly articles for law journals. She has written three books about well-being and thriving in the legal profession: * The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven-Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy  * Untangling Fear in Lawyering: A Four-Step Journey Toward Powerful Advocacy  * The Flourishing Lawyer: A Multi-Dimensional Approach to Performance and Well-Being Inspired by her own experience untangling fear of public speaking during her litigation career, she is passionate about helping law students and lawyers “find their authentic lawyer voices” and overcome anxiety about Socratic legal discourse and performance-based lawyering tasks. Prior to joining the Law School, Brown served as Associate Professor of Law at New York Law School, where she taught in the school's Legal Practice program. Before that, she was an Associate Professor of Legal Research and Writing at the Chapman University Dale E. Fowler School of Law in Orange, California. Heidi Brown has more than two decades of experience in law practice, studies Italian and has taught legal writing at the University of Trento in Trento, Italy and at Tuscia University in Viterbo, Italy. She received her bachelor's degree in foreign affairs and French language/literature from the University of Virginia, and her J.D. from the University of Virginia School of Law. In 2021, she received a Master in Applied Positive Psychology (MAPP) degree from the University of Pennsylvania. Heidi Bown will be joining New York Law School as the Associate Dean for Upper-Level Legal Writing this summer. It is worth noting that she was awarded the 2023 Association of American Law Schools' Section on Balance and Well-being for her outstanding contributions towards well-being in legal education through her books.

Addressing fear and anxiety with societal mantras like “fake it ‘til you make it” or “face your fears” isn't all that helpful, and might even be harmful to many of us. Tune in as Molly Ranns and JoAnn Hathaway talk with Heidi K. Brown about her book, “Untangling Fear in Lawyering: A Four-Step Journey Toward Powerful Advocacy.” Rather than stigmatizing fear, Heidi discusses ways to equip attorneys with the skills to work through fear responses and then physically and mentally recalibrate to meet the challenges of legal practice.   Episode Links: Untangling Fear in Lawyering: A Four-Step Journey Toward Powerful Advocacy, by Heidi K. Brown https://www.viacharacter.org/

Addressing fear and anxiety with societal mantras like “fake it ‘til you make it” or “face your fears” isn't all that helpful, and might even be harmful to many of us. Tune in as Molly Ranns and JoAnn Hathaway talk with Heidi K. Brown about her book, “Untangling Fear in Lawyering: A Four-Step Journey Toward Powerful Advocacy.” Rather than stigmatizing fear, Heidi discusses ways to equip attorneys with the skills to work through fear responses and then physically and mentally recalibrate to meet the challenges of legal practice.   Episode Links: Untangling Fear in Lawyering: A Four-Step Journey Toward Powerful Advocacy, by Heidi K. Brown https://www.viacharacter.org/

In this episode of Legally Blissed Conversations, we are joined by Professor Heidi Brown. Heidi is a law professor, a former litigator in the construction industry (um, hello, old boys' club!), author of four legal writing books, but more importantly, an author of three books about how to thrive and flourish in the legal profession: The Introverted Lawyer, Untangling Fear in Lawyering, and The Flourishing Lawyer. She is also a novice boxer, a rabid fan of the Irish band U2, and an introverted nomad who loves to travel the world solo. If you are a quiet law student or lawyer and are struggling to find your place in the legal arena, Heidi wrote this book for you. This book champions the valuable gifts that introverted, shy, and socially anxious individuals can contribute to the legal profession—including active listening, deep thinking, empathy, careful legal writing, creative problem-solving, and thoughtful communication. Follow Heidi: https://www.instagram.com/introvertedlawyer/ (@introvertedlawyer)

In this episode of The Defense Never Rests podcast, I am joined by "The Introverted Lawyer" professor Heidi K Brown. We get candid and vulnerable about the struggles of self doubt and fear of public speaking. Tune in to hear her amazing tips and tricks to help reprogram your brain and overcome your fears behind the podium. Be sure to check out Heidi's books: Untangling Fear in Lawyering: A Four-Step Journey Toward Powerful Advocacy - The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy

In this podcast in the Future 50 Series of the CLI Legalpreneurs Spotlight, we chatted with Heidi K. Brown about her new book, The Flourishing Lawyer - A Multi-Dimensional Approach to Performance and Well-Being (2022). Heidi has been exploring the lawyer psyche for a number of years. What distinguishes Heidi's work in this area is its multidisciplinary approach and that it draws from lessons learned from other industries like the world of elite sports professionals. It's also personal. It's part of Heidi's lived experience as a former practising lawyer and now working with lawyers of the future in her roles as Professor of Law and the Director of Legal Writing at Brooklyn Law School in the US. A clear theme runs through Heidi's work – the importance of empathy, curiosity, positivity and a commitment to challenging what it means to be a lawyer and changing mindsets about what lawyering is or could be now and in the future. The Flourishing Lawyer is the third in a trilogy of exploration. It started with The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven-Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy (2017), then to Untangling Fear in Lawyering: A Four-Step Journey Toward Powerful Advocacy (2019) and now to The Flourishing Lawyer – and it's clear, thankfully, that this is not the end! If you would prefer to watch rather than listen to this podcast, you'll find the video here. About the Future 50 Series In the Future 50 Series, we're chatting with legalpreneurs who, through their ideas and actions, are challenging and transforming legal BAU all around the world. If you would like to recommend people for this Series, please contact us at: CLI@collaw.edu.au.

Having suffered from extreme public speaking anxiety throughout law school and law practice, Heidi's passion lies in researching, studying, and writing about introversion, shyness, social anxiety, and extreme public speaking anxiety in the legal context—and helping quiet law students and lawyers amplify their authentic advocacy voices. Based on her research, she was appointed to serve as a Board Member of the Association of American Law Schools' Committee on Balance in Legal Education. She also won the Global Legal Skills Award at the Global Legal Skills Conference at the Collegio di Giurisprudenza at the Università Degli Studi di Verona, in Verona, Italy in 2014, for “excellence in the advancement of global legal skills education around the world.” Heidi is leading a Task Force on Law Student and Lawyer Well-Being at Brooklyn Law School. Heidi is the author of four other books on federal litigation and legal writing. She resides in Brooklyn, New York and when she is not teaching or writing, she loves working out at SoulCycle, boxing, studying Italian, and accumulating stamps in her passport. This show is sponsored by Leopard Solutions Legal Intelligence Suite of products, Firmscape, and Leopard BI. Push ahead of the pack with the power of Leopard. For a free demo, visit this link: https://www.leopardsolutions.com/index.php/request-a-demo/ Links: https://www.brooklaw.edu/Contact-Us/Brown-Heidi-K https://www.linkedin.com/in/theintrovertedlawyerbook/ http://www.theintrovertedlawyer.com/ www.viacharacter.org

Welcome back to America's leading higher education law podcast, EdUp Legal - part of the EdUp Experience Podcast Network! Professor Heidi K. Brown joined us for her episode during her sabbatical year from Brooklyn Law School, where she is Director of Legal Writing and Professor of Law. Professor Brown shares her path from boutique litigation practice and brief writer to author and legal educator. She has published four books on predictive and persuasive legal writing and federal litigation and has written two books that help law students and attorneys "find their authentic lawyer voices" and overcome anxiety. A self-proclaimed introvert, her books include The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven-Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy and Untangling Fear in Layering: A Four-Step Journey Toward Powerful Advocacy. Professor Brown is an avid traveler and included on the Fulbright Specialist Roster. She studies Italian, has taught in Italy, and was awarded a Global Legal Skills Award in Verona, Italy. When she's not working on her Italian, she is often attending concerts of U2, whom she has seen 20 times, and we discuss the lithograph of Bono lyrics she has in her apartment. Every time I hear a U2 song now, Professor Brown comes to mind! Professor Brown regularly works with a trainer in boxing and finds that boxing lessons often inform her work. Her latest book, The Flourishing Lawyer, will be out next. Thank you so much for tuning in. Join us on the next episode for your EdUp time! Connect with your host - Patty Roberts ● If you want to get involved, leave us a comment or rate us! ● Join the EdUp community at The EdUp Experience! ● Follow EdUp on Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | Twitter | YouTube Thanks for listening!

Welcome back to America's leading higher education law podcast, EdUp Legal - part of the EdUp Experience Podcast Network! Professor Heidi K. Brown joined us for her episode during her sabbatical year from Brooklyn Law School, where she is Director of Legal Writing and Professor of Law. Professor Brown shares her path from boutique litigation practice and brief writer to author and legal educator. She has published four books on predictive and persuasive legal writing and federal litigation and has written two books that help law students and attorneys "find their authentic lawyer voices" and overcome anxiety. A self-proclaimed introvert, her books include The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven-Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy and Untangling Fear in Layering: A Four-Step Journey Toward Powerful Advocacy. Professor Brown is an avid traveler and included on the Fulbright Specialist Roster. She studies Italian, has taught in Italy, and was awarded a Global Legal Skills Award in Verona, Italy. When she's not working on her Italian, she is often attending concerts of U2, whom she has seen 20 times, and we discuss the lithograph of Bono lyrics she has in her apartment. Every time I hear a U2 song now, Professor Brown comes to mind! Professor Brown regularly works with a trainer in boxing and finds that boxing lessons often inform her work. Her latest book, The Flourishing Lawyer, will be out next. Thank you so much for tuning in. Join us on the next episode for your EdUp time! Connect with your host - Patty Roberts ● If you want to get involved, leave us a comment or rate us! ● Join the EdUp community at The EdUp Experience! ● Follow EdUp on Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | Twitter | YouTube Thanks for listening!

Darlene and Mike are joined by Heidi K. Brown (Author, Professor of Law at Brooklyn Law School) to discuss her book Untangling Fear In Lawyering. The group considers whether lawyers can improve performance and well-being by embracing confidence, understanding what drives fear, and adopting practices to first acknowledge it, and then work to eliminate it. PLUS: Darlene goes west, a great show recommendation, and is Mike Scandinavian? SHOW NOTES Check out Heidi's book "Untangling Fear in Lawyering: A Four-Step Journey Toward Powerful Advocacy" here: https://www.americanbar.org/products/inv/book/358687385/(USA) and here: https://www.amazon.ca/Untangling-Fear-Lawyering-Four-Step-Powerful/dp/1641053526 (Canada). This episode is sponsored by Helcim. Helcim makes credit card processing for your business easy, simple, and affordable. Visit Helcim.com/lawyerlife to get your first $6,000 worth of processing free. FEEDBACK, CREDITS & REVIEW Please give us feedback here: http://bit.ly/LLPFeedback Music credit: Thanks to Nick Fowler who composed and performed our theme music. To learn about his work, visit teknologyproductions.wixsite.com/teknology. Art credit: Thanks to Jenny Henderson for our LLP artwork. To learn about Jenny and see her work, visit: https://www.jennyhendersonstudio.com/ Please rate, review, subscribe and comment. We would so appreciate your feedback (I mean, we're just two lawyers trying to podcast).

In this conversation, Heidi shares how fear can hold members of the legal profession back, how you can begin to “untangle” your own fears, and how getting in the boxing ring helped her master the more performative aspects of her own practice.

Heidi K. Brown is a graduate of The University of Virginia School of Law, a law professor at Brooklyn Law School, and a former litigator in the construction industry. Having struggled with anxiety and fear as a law student, attorney, and new law professor, she finally untangled her fears, embracing authenticity as a powerful asset in teaching and practicing law. She is the author of Untangling Fear in Lawyering: A Four-Step Journey Toward Powerful Advocacy (ABA 2019), The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven-Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy (ABA 2017), and a two-volume legal writing book series entitled The Mindful Legal Writer. Heidi champions the importance of openly discussing anxieties and fears in lawyering, and helping quiet and anxious law students and lawyers become profoundly effective advocates, in their authentic voices. Her website is www.theintrovertedlawyer.com, and she loves to hear from readers on Instagram @introvertedlawyer and Twitter @introvertlawyer. Contact Information: Heidi.Brown@brooklaw.edu or heidi@theintrovertedlawyer.com Here is the link to Heidi's new book: https://www.americanbar.org/products/inv/book/358687385/

Law professor, author, and former litigator Heidi Brown shares her strategies for helping introverted, shy, and socially anxious law students and lawyers “amplify their voices” – without compromising or suppressing their quiet strengths. To learn more about Heidi and her work, visit her website and check out her books: The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven-Step Journey... The post Thriving as a Quiet Lawyer in a Profession of Loud Voices with Heidi K. Brown appeared first on Exellegal.

In this episode, Heidi K. Brown, Director of Legal Writing and Associate Professor of Law at Brooklyn Law School, discusses her book "The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven-Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy," which is published by the American Bar Association. She begins by explaining how introverts and extroverts are different, and how legal education and practice favor extroverts over introverts. She describes how and why introverts can struggle in law school and practice, and provides advice on how to mitigate those struggles. And she explains why legal educators and the legal profession to acknowledge and address the burdens it places on introverted people. Brown is on Twitter at @introvertlawyer.This episode was hosted by Brian L. Frye, Spears-Gilbert Associate Professor of Law at the University of Kentucky College of Law. Frye is on Twitter at @brianlfrye. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Heidi K. Brown discusses her book, "The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven-Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy." Our GDPR privacy policy was updated on August 8, 2022. Visit acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this special episode of law to fact, Professor Heidi K. Brown, Director of Legal Writing and Associate Professor of Law shares very specific pointers for success during online moot court arguments. Some key takeaways are: Make sure your space looks professional. Stand, rather than sitting and dress in courtroom attireKnow that people tend to interrupt online, wait for a moment to speakAlways remember you know your material better than the judges About our guest…Professor Heidi K. Brown is the Director of Legal Writing and Associate Professor of Law.She is a prolific scholar and author on the importance of legal writing, she has published four books on predictive and persuasive legal writing and federal litigation, as well as numerous scholarly articles for law journals. In 2017, she published her fifth book, The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven-Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy. Inspired by her own experience conquering the fear of public speaking during her litigation career, she is passionate about helping law students and lawyers “find their authentic lawyer voices” and overcome anxiety about Socratic legal discourse. Untangling Fear in Lawyering is available at https://www.americanbar.org/products/inv/book/358687385/ Her other books, including The Introverted Lawyer, are available at Amazon.com You can learn more about Prof. Brown at https://www.brooklaw.edu/faculty/directory/facultymember/biography?id=heidi.brown As always, if you have and suggestions for an episode topic, please let us know! You can email us at leslie@lawtofact.com or tweet to @lawtofact. Don’t forget to follow us on Twitter and Instagram (@lawtofact) and to like us on FaceBook! And finally, your ratings and reviews matter! Please leave us a review on iTunes. Want to stay updated on all things Law to Fact? Join our mailing list by visiting us at www.lawtofact.com. Tags: Academic SuccessLegal Research and WritingMoot Court1L2LLawLawyerLaw StudentLSATLaw SchoolLaw School ExamsEpisode is LivePublished: Mar. 26, 2019 @12AM EditUnpublishAmplify this EpisodeAdd Chapter MarkersTranscribe this EpisodePromote this EpisodeCreate a Video SoundbiteShare on FacebookShare on Twitter

Kaitlyn intros the episode with a quick announcement. Then, Laura and Kaitlyn continue their discussion with Heidi K. Brown and walk through all seven steps of Heidi's journey to empowered advocacy for introverted lawyers. Heidi shares her happy pill this week and assigns some creative homework!

Are you an introvert or an extrovert? Join Kaitlyn and Laura as they discuss all things introversion with 2-time ABA published author and Brooklyn Law professor Heidi K. Brown. Heidi describes the difference between introverts and extroverts and how being an introvert can make law school and lawyer life difficult to navigate. She shares her personal experiences and how she found her voice in a profession that encourages extroversion. As always, we send you off with some happy pills and homework.

Holiday parties can be hard if you’re introverted, and they can be worse if you have social anxiety. But skipping them is not a great idea, says lawyer and author Heidi K. Brown, an associate professor of law and director of legal writing at Brooklyn Law School. In this new episode of the ABA Journal's Asked and Answered podcast, Brown talks to Senior Writer Stephanie Francis Ward about how to navigate the office holiday party and still appear to be having fun and how to come out of your shell when you'd rather be alone. Special thanks to our sponsor, LawPay.

Holiday parties can be hard if you’re introverted, and they can be worse if you have social anxiety. But skipping them is not a great idea, says lawyer and author Heidi K. Brown, an associate professor of law and director of legal writing at Brooklyn Law School. In this new episode of the ABA Journal's Asked and Answered podcast, Brown talks to Senior Writer Stephanie Francis Ward about how to navigate the office holiday party and still appear to be having fun and how to come out of your shell when you'd rather be alone. Special thanks to our sponsor, LawPay.

In this episode… Professor Heidi K. Brown, Director of Legal Writing and Associate Professor of Law shares tips for success during Moot Court. Some key takeaways are: Trust yourselfDon’t overprepareTake a power stance! andBefore you begin, repeat her four part mantra! About our guest…Professor Heidi K. Brown is the Director of Legal Writing and Associate Professor of Law.She is a prolific scholar and author on the importance of legal writing, she has published four books on predictive and persuasive legal writing and federal litigation, as well as numerous scholarly articles for law journals. In 2017, she published her fifth book, The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven-Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy. Inspired by her own experience conquering the fear of public speaking during her litigation career, she is passionate about helping law students and lawyers “find their authentic lawyer voices” and overcome anxiety about Socratic legal discourse. Untangling Fear in Lawyering is available at https://www.americanbar.org/products/inv/book/358687385/ Her other books, including The Introverted Lawyer, are available at Amazon.com You can learn more about Prof. Brown at https://www.brooklaw.edu/faculty/directory/facultymember/biography?id=heidi.brown As always, if you have and suggestions for an episode topic, please let us know! You can email us at leslie@lawtofact.com or tweet to @lawtofact. Don’t forget to follow us on Twitter and Instagram (@lawtofact) and to like us on FaceBook! And finally, your ratings and reviews matter! Please leave us a review on iTunes. Want to stay updated on all things Law to Fact? Join our mailing list by visiting us at www.lawtofact.com.

“Fake it ‘till you make it.” For Heidi K. Brown, trying to mimic her extroverted peers in litigation always felt forced. She pushed through law school and nearly two decades of practice acting the outgoing attorney before accepting her quiet, thoughtful self. Brown wrote her book—The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven-Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy—with introverted, shy and socially anxious lawyers and law students in mind. In this episode of the Modern Law Library, ABA Publishing’s Ashley Alfirevic speaks to Brown about honoring yourself, affirming what’s true and embracing the blush.

“Fake it ‘till you make it.” For Heidi K. Brown, trying to mimic her extroverted peers in litigation always felt forced. She pushed through law school and nearly two decades of practice acting the outgoing attorney before accepting her quiet, thoughtful self. Brown wrote her book—The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven-Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy—with introverted, shy and socially anxious lawyers and law students in mind. In this episode of the Modern Law Library, ABA Publishing’s Ashley Alfirevic speaks to Brown about honoring yourself, affirming what’s true and embracing the blush.

Author and law professor Heidi K. Brown shares insights from her book The Introverted Lawyer.  Quiet thinkers and writers can be sidelined. The Introverted Lawyer illuminates the valuable gifts that introverted, shy, and socially anxious individuals bring to the legal profession—including active listening, deep thinking, empathy, impactful legal writing, creative problem-solving, and thoughtful communication.   www.theintrovertedlawyer.com    

Professor Heidi K.  Brown is a former construction litigator, author and self-described introvert. Mark was able to connect with Heidi, who is based in Brooklyn, New York where she is the Director of the legal writing program at Brooklyn Law School, to discuss the differences between introverts and extroverts in the legal context. Heidi's recent book, The Introverted Lawyer: A Seven Step Journey Toward Authentically Empowered Advocacy, helps the introverted lawyer to best harness their personality and flourish in the legal field without conforming to the stereotypical lawyer as extrovert. Professor Brown will be presenting a CLE webinar entitled The Introverted Lawyer: Authentically Empowered Advocacy, in our New Lawyer Webinar series on May 9, 2018. Register now. ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte. Transcript MARK: Hello, welcome to another episode of ALPS In Brief, the ALPS Risk Management podcast. We're coming to you from the ALPS home office in the historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Mozilla, Montana. I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the ALPS Risk Manager, and I have the pleasure today of sitting down with Heidi K. Brown, a noted author. We're going to be talking about her book here in just a few minutes and also Professor at Brooklyn Law School. Welcome to the podcast Heidi and if I could have you briefly introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about yourself and we'll get started on a conversation. HEIDI: Thank you so much for having me. Yes, I went to law school at the University of Virginia. I grew up in Virginia. Then I went into construction litigation right out of law school, actually both my summers in law school I worked for a construction litigation firm, a boutique litigation firm and ended up doing that for the bulk of my litigation career and about 15 years into my litigation career I transitioned into teaching legal writing. I've been doing that for about eight years now at three different schools. Most recently joined Brooklyn Law School as the Director of the Legal Writing Program, here in Brooklyn, New York. I love to write and my latest project as you mentioned is this booked called the Introverted Lawyer. MARK: As an aside, I just finished it. I thought it was a very well done book. I also found it interesting in firms of your history. Being an introvert and having this career in construction litigation, I just thought, "Wow, okay, that had to be a challenge." Let's start off just talking about some basics for out listener. Can you describe some of the key difference between introverts and extroverts in terms of the context of the legal profession? HEIDI: Sure, yes. Until I started really studying this in the legal context, I did what most people do and I sort of lumped those labels of quiet individuals together, introverts, shyness, social anxiety. But they're actually very different concepts and different categories of personality traits and preferences. So, first I can sort of distinguish between introversion and extroversion, if that would help, and then distinguish among introversion, shyness and social anxiety. So introverts and extroverts, those terms really just describe the different ways we process stimuli, energy, and information. Introverts process all of those types of things deeply and internally and sort of methodically on the inside. Where as extroverts process stimuli and information and energy externally. So, I kind of like to use the image of Time Square in New York, it's a very highly stimulated environment and an extrovert might thrive on the noise and the action and the number of people and gain energy from that scenario. Where as an introvert can handle that with skill, but in a shorter dosage and will need to sort of retreat to quietude and solitude to regain energy and to process all of that stimuli. In the legal context, well, introverts can be very adept at processing information and complex legal concepts, they need to do it internally. Actually the scientists say that introverts and extroverts use two completely different neurological pathways in the brain to process information. And the introvert's pathway is longer, so that's why is can take us longer to listen to questions, read something, handle a lot of competing voices in a meeting and we process all of that internally and deeply before we're ready to respond aloud. It can seem like an introvert is slower, but actually they're just going very deep into analyzing concepts. Shyness and social anxiety and completely different concepts. You can be an introvert and not be shy at all. Shyness and social anxiety and more of a fear of judgment or a fear of criticism in performance oriented scenarios. And that can stem from sort of things that we remember from growing up, maybe we had a coach or a well-meaning mentor or peers or a care giver who put us in situations where we felt judgment or even shame, sometimes, can drive adult shyness and social anxiety. So they're very different categories. I find it helps, when we start to understand ourselves in the legal context what might be holding us back in certain scenarios. It's helpful to understand, "Is this because I'm an introvert and I process things internally or is this because I'm afraid of the perception of judgment from a judge or opposing counsel or a colleague or a client. MARK: I find it fascinating. There was some real learning out of this and even just what you shared, but I picked up in the book as well. I am an extrovert. I have always sort of viewed introverts as, if you will, a behavioral situation, a behavioral issue. And I don't want to say ... It's just different. But you're talking about this processing, internal brain. I just found that absolutely fascinating. It really sheds some light on an issue for it. I liked that. What prompted you to write the book? HEIDI: Well, throughout my litigation career I always loved the legal research and writing aspects of my job, but I struggled with the performance oriented aspects of my job. As you can imagine, in the construction litigation world, performance matters. It's a tough industry, you have these strong personalities and the cases I was dealing with would take about two years to do to trial from complaint filing all the way to the actual trial. We were dealing with a lot of depositions, a lot of discovery. It was very performance oriented, lots of negotiations. I struggled in those environments because, while I loved the research and writing and figuring out the complex contractual issues and the legal issues that happened in all of our cases, in those moments of performance I felt I had to mirror the other attorney's behavior or the client's behavior and a lot of times, as I mentioned these strong or tough personalities, and I just don't have that personality. For about 15 years of my career path I thought that was a weakness of mine or there was something wrong with me and I was the only nervous one in the room. And as I describe in the book, I have a blushing tendency, I flush, I turn red, my face gets blotchy when I'm nervous. So I have a really bad poker face in negotiations and in court room scenarios. Again, I always thought that was a flaw and what really prompted me to write this book and study this deeply in the legal context what when I transitioned to teaching, while I was litigating, I was working on a big case out in California and I was asked to start teaching a legal writing course at the same time. And I noticed that my strongest legal writers, my most thoughtful, analytical students were also my quiet ones and the most fearful of the performance scenarios, whether it's the Socratic method in the classroom or a mandatory oral argument simulation. And I finally thought, oh my goodness, Instead of giving these amazing students this message that maybe you're not cut out for litigation or, if this is so stressful for you, maybe you should go do something else, which were messages that I heard and absorbed in my career. I thought, no, these are amazing thinkers, they're great listeners, they're hard workers, they're creative problem solvers and we need to find a way to explain why certain performance scenarios are harder for some of us than other. And it doesn't mean we're not able to do it or we can't be fantastic at it, we just need to understand ourselves better. So that's what led me to study introversion and shyness and social anxiety in the legal context because no one had really talked about it in the legal profession. We obviously have the stereotype of lawyers being extroverted and confident and sort of gregarious and that's not actually the case in every scenario. My goal was really to help quiet law students and junior associates who were worried maybe they weren't cut out for our profession and empower them to know that yes they absolutely are and here are some tips for amplifying our voices in an authentic manor. Throughout my career the mantras I always heard was, "Fake it till you make it," or "Just do it," that amazing Nike slogan. But those messages aren't really helpful in the types of scenarios that I struggle with and also that I'm talking about here. MARK: And what I really enjoyed and another take-away, I guess, from the book is you really talk about the introverted lawyer has a different set of strengths or assets, if you will. I thought that was very interesting, can you kind of highlight what value, strengths do introverted lawyers bring to the profession? HEIDI: Yes, what I noticed and gleaned from all the resources that I studied, is that common themes pervade quiet individuals. If you're thinking about introverts or even people who experience that shyness that I mentioned before. The experts on these issues show that these individuals are active listeners, they really can sit in a room, even with competing voices, and they're listening to what these individuals are saying and they're really focused on hearing what someone else is sharing. They're, as I mentioned before, kind of deep thinkers, really methodical, slow, careful, thinkers, they're processing all this information of a deep level. They also have a tendency towards creative problem solving. Because they're listening and absorbing lots of different competing ideas, they're capable of synthesizing those into solutions that maybe some of the individuals speaking are overlook in the moment. And that's why it can also lead to really strong legal writing because when a person can be quiet and reflective and sort of work out a problem through writing, it can really illuminate solutions to legal problems that maybe aren't apparent if we're just debating and talking about them out loud in a verbal valet scenario. Then one thing that really surprised me or stood out to me during my research was that these experts pointed out that quiet individuals also bring empathy to a human interaction. As a former construction litigator you might not think of empathy as being an important legal trait or a skill of an attorney. But I started remembering scenarios in my job where we were trying to resolve a conflict on a massive construction project and just to kind of take a step back for a minute and to have empathy and try and figure out what really is driving this conflict? It's not the firing off of these angry emails that people do on construction jobs sometimes- MARK: Right. HEIDI: ... but it's really this human frustration that, on a random Tuesday on the job site, rain is pouring down and materials are late and everybody's trying to get something done and it's not working and trying to really understand from an empathy standpoint what's really driving the conflict from a human perspective. I was excited to hear all these positive traits that quiet folks bring to the legal profession, that we sometimes don't appreciate as much as, in my opinion, we should. Good lawyers need to be good listeners and not always speaking, we need to actually listen to the client who might be afraid to tell us what's really going on. Then good lawyers need to deeply think about complicated legal concepts, the law is hard and we need people who can sort of take a quiet moment, find that difficult answer in a sea of research, take the time to write and reflect on the problem and write out the problem and come to a solution that might not be as obvious if we're just talking about it. Things like that really stood out to me as amazing traits that quiet folks bring to our profession. MARK: Yeah, and when I think about all this myself, there are certainly the lawyers that we've been talking about, very, very aggressive and these kinds of things. I don't know that that approach really serves our clients best. And I like the focus on taking the time to really go deep and explore and think through and look at the issues. What I hear is we're placing ... we're moving away from the advocacy model toward a, what is really best for the client, problem solving model, both are necessary. But I really value where you're going with all of this, I really do. I'd like to talk a little bit about the process that you describe in your book. You acknowledge that while introverts and otherwise quiet advocates can be pivotal, change agents for the profession. These lawyers still need to be able to jump into the fray and speak with assertiveness at times because it's just called for, it's necessary. And you developed a seven step process for, if you were amplifying the voice. Can you talk a little bit about these steps? HEIDI: Yes, as I mentioned, the messages that I absorbed over my trajectory and my career were always sort of just, "Fake it till you make it," or, "Do these performance events 1000 times and it will get easier." I tried those methods and they absolutely did not work for me, it never got easier and when I started studying this, the book, I realized it wasn't getting easier because I was just hurdling myself into these scenarios without any self-awareness and not really understanding that my approach to the law is maybe different from an extroverted person. In developing the seven step process, it really broke down into a reflective plan and an action plan and really beginning to step into these performance events that we need to do as lawyers- MARK: Right. HEIDI: ... we can't just avoid- MARK: Of course. HEIDI: ... performance or human interaction. But doing it with heightened self-awareness and then a conscience plan for each event. So the seven steps really developed into the first two steps being reflection on mental approached to these types of events and physical approaches. I was really excited when I started realizing how important the physical aspect of anxiety is, like what are we doing physically in an anticipation of these types of events that maybe isn't that helpful to us, it's instinctive what our bodies do physically, but it's not always helpful. So step one is reflecting mentally on what we are hearing in our minds as we are approaching a law related performance event. Some lawyers might sort of resist going that direction and feel like, "Oh, I don't want to get too touchy feely with my emotions." But it's so important to realize and reflect on and listen to what we tell ourselves in anticipation of a negotiation or court room appearance or a difficult conversation with the client, what messages are we hearing in our minds and then trying to pin point, "Wait, where have I heard that before and what's the original source of that message because it absolutely is not the person who's in front of us today."   It really comes from this ingrained or entrenched mental messages that we've been telling ourselves for years and years and years. It's really remarkable when you can realize, "Oh, this is not the law professor that I'm encountering or the judge or the intimidating opposing counsel or the strong personality client, this is a, perhaps well-meaning, mentor or coach or authority figure from high school or college or an earlier event in our professional careers. And it's really tremendous when you can realize, "Oh, okay that message no longer has any relevance in my legal persona today." But it takes us taking the time to listen to it and then we can sort of override it or delete it from our mental soundtrack. Step one is that reflection piece on the mental messages.   Step two is a physical reflection approach. And I mentioned my blushing problem before. To hide the blushing in my legal career, which I felt was a weakness of just this shiny red billboard of my fear, I used to hide it. I used to wear turtlenecks and scarves and try and hide myself, but physically that was just making my physically reactions worse because I was hot, I was feeling constricted. When I started doing step two, which is the physical reflection piece, you realize your body is just going into instinctive protective mode when you feel fear or anxiety. But what we do is we close ourselves off. We cross our legs or hunch our shoulders or constrict our bodies to get small and invisible. But all that's doing is constricting our energy, our adrenaline, it's preventing us from breathing clearly, it's effecting the oxygen levels going to our brain, our blood is not flowing in a productive manor. But we don't realize that's happening to us until we take the time to reflect and monitor sort of minute-by-minute what we do instinctively in anticipation of a stressful moment. Step one and two are really the reflection piece.   Steps three and four are flipping those recognitions or those realizations and having a new plan. Step three is having a new mental action plan. And I kind of like to analogize to the fire fighter mantra of stop, drop, and roll. When we step into a performance event or anticipate one, those old messages are gonna show up they just do, they've been ingrained in us for years. But we hear them and realize, "Oh, wait a minute. I'm gonna stop. I'm not gonna listen to that and instead I'm gonna apply my new approach. I've prepared for this event, I know the case law or the statute of the client facts better than anyone in the room, I've done all this preparation, and I have something to say. I'm gonna do it my way." And just having this new mental action plan for when those old messages creeped in. Same thing when the physical action plan, which is step four. It's knowing that our bodies are instinctively gonna try and close us off from the event and protect us. But having an athlete's approach to the performance event, standing in a balanced stance, either at a podium or even in a seat at a conference table, opening up your channels of breathing oxygen flow, blood flow and giving your excess energy and place to go. It's amazing in a performance moment when you realize, "Oh, I'm crossing my legs again. I need to sort of balance myself out and breathe. And it's really incredible when you realize just by making subtle physical changes, you can breathe better and then your brain works better and everything just kind of flows in a positive direction. And then steps five, six, and seven are really just building on that for the long-term. Step five is about developing, what the experts call, and exposure agenda. When I first read about the term exposure, I thought this sounds dangerously like just do it, just expose yourself to these scary events and everything will be fine. But exposure in the psychology perspective is stepping into these moments with self-awareness and a plan and it's really looking at law related scenarios that might give some of us anxiety, consciously prioritizing them from least anxiety producing to most anxiety producing. And then having a real conscious mental plan and physical plan for each event incrementally. And then stepping into each event with purpose and the plan. And then step six gets even more nitty gritty and tangible with each event and that is designed to have, to use an athlete metaphor, a pregame plan and a game day plan for each of those events, trying to put yourself in the scenario, substantively, mentally, and physically if you can go to the space, go to the room if that's possible, check out the seating arrangements, the podium, is there a microphone, what's lighting like, how many people are gonna be there, and just anticipating different situations that normally might derail us but now we can take more control. And then step seven is just a reflection after each event and figuring out positively what worked great and maybe what you can make some subtle changes to for the next event. MARK: What I liked about ... again, as an extrovert approaching this material, I think there's a lot of value to it for non-introverts as well. I really like this aspect of self-reflection and trying to understand, both emotionally and physically, why we do what we do. I think sometimes people are very aggressive for fears and all kinds of things. You see where I'm going. I love the whole model that you've developed here. HEIDI: Thank you. MARK: Can you talk a little bit about ... the temptation, if you will, is to say, okay. We've talked about some of the strengths are introverted lawyers have. Does that, from your perspective, do you think limits that areas of practice that introverted lawyers can really excel in? Do you see where I'm going with this? HEIDI: Right. Not at all. I don't feel the introverts should limit themselves to the types of areas of legal practice or really any aspects of legal practice. To be honest, those were the kind of messages that I either heard or I misinterpreted that, "Well, why did you do into litigation if you were nervous about taking a deposition?" Or, "Why did you go into construction law if you didn't want to fight like a champion?" And I don't think those are productive messages at all because in my experience and working on myself. I realized introverted and quiet individuals can do any aspect of law, they just need to have better self-awareness or enhanced self-awareness of their strength and also scenarios that might cause them some particular challenges, how to step in to those challenges with force and amplification, but in an authentic manner, not trying to fake extroversion or mirror the behavior of a really boisterous gregarious person, but instead stepping into the scenario as a calm, quieter figure but with power. And it was eye-opening when I realize, a quiet individual can be a very tremendous voice in a negotiation or in the courtroom. We don't all have to be boisterous and gregarious to be effective. That was a huge realization for me. I definitely do not think that introverts should only go into transactional law, for instance, because transactional law requires a lot of performance, so you're really not cutting out those performance scenarios. But I also feel that if we encourage introverts to limit their interest, we're missing out on a tremendous body of voices that have great ideas for any aspect and any area of practice if that law and that's not what we should be doing. We should be including these voices in all aspects of our legal profession. What's been fun and exciting throughout this journey with this book is talking to extroverts who were open to understanding introverts better so they can better manage teams and understand that having both introverts and extroverts on a legal team, whether it's in transactional work or a litigation is an asset because you're bringing these different minds together to solve problems in different ways, and that's really gonna serve the client better. Rather than us all trying to be this one stereotypical lawyer. MARK: Let's follow up on that just a little bit because I will confess that I have been one of these people that will say, or at least out of naivety had this thought, that but do it kind of a thing. You know what I ... what advice do you have for manager partners or supervision attorneys in terms of recruiting and developing a talented pool of introverted lawyers? HEIDI: I've been really excited to hear how open so many managing partners and leaders are in learning more about different personality types and being vulnerable themselves and looking to see if, are they really extroverted or have they just been acting extroverted all these years. I think the more that law office leaders or law firm leaders or legal profession leaders understand that we are not all the same, but getting a little touchy feely I guess with personality traits and understanding the assets that different diverse individuals bring to the profession is a huge first step. Just realizing, okay, we're not all the same and that's a good thing. Then I've also been trying to study and understand how to encourage law firm leaders and law office leaders to acknowledge the presence of fear in lawyering because there are many scenarios that we encounter in the practice of law that are just scary, and they're scarier for some of us than others. It really accomplishes a great deal when a law firm leader can say to junior associates, "Hey, look I realize that some lawyering scenarios are gonna be scarier for some of you than others, that is okay. It doesn't mean you're not cut out for this. But let's talk about that and really figure out what is it about this particular deposition or negotiations or client scenario that's troubling you and let's talk about the tactical aspects of it." Not always the substantive preparation because I think all of us endeavor to work as hard as we can on the substance of the law, that really being honest about the mental aspects of our job, that tactical scenarios that we don't always teach in law school, and we assume that junior attorneys can just figure out in the field. Managing partners and law firm leaders, really sit down openly and talk with junior attorneys about the reality of fear in lawyering and provide helpful advice and mentoring on how to handle those scenarios without judgment, without making it seem like a weakness. I think that will really go to great lengths to help the well-being of our profession and help everybody perform better and serve our clients in a really fantastic way. MARK: I have one final question I'm very curious about. You've come out at the end of an interesting journey, and we have the book here. Knowing what you know now, if you were to go back and do it all over again, in terms of your career, would you do anything different? HEIDI: I would have been so much healthier. If I had known all this then, I would have been able to take the pressure off of myself to prepare for depositions and trial work and client scenarios in a way that made it okay for me to turn red in a deposition and keep going, keep going with my plan, don't let my nerves make me feel weak or like I'm not but out for this. And I so wish I could go back and redo all of those scenarios and just be able to talk myself through those scenarios realizing you are substantively prepared, you know what you're doing, you have a voice, you're entitled to do it your way and not try and mirror the guys across the table, don't worry about if you're blushing, it doesn't matter, you're doing a good substantive job. And I think I would have had a much healthier journey through my twenties and my thirties. But I think all of that experience led me to the place that I am now and I'm very happy in my job, I love teaching legal writing, it's a powerful medium for lawyers to communicate and this book has really taught me how introverts and shy and socially anxious law students can really change our profession if somebody just takes a moment to tell them, "You can do this." And that's been very exciting. MARK: We are at the end of our time here. I'd like to say, Professor Brown, thank you so much. It really has been a pleasure. To our listeners, I hope you found something of value and interest today out of this conversation. And if in future you have any ideas for topic or if you have questions or concerns you'd like to see addressed in one of our podcasts, please don't hesitate to reach out to me at mbass@alpsnet.com. Thanks for listening. Bye-bye.  Heidi K. Brown is a graduate of The University of Virginia School of Law, a law professor at Brooklyn Law School, and a former litigator in the construction industry. Having struggled with extreme public speaking anxiety and the perceived pressure to force an extroverted persona throughout law school and nearly two decades of law practice, she finally embraced her introversion and quiet nature as a powerful asset in teaching and practicing law. She is the author of a two-volume legal writing book series entitled The Mindful Legal Writer, won a Global Legal Skills award for her work in helping law students overcome public speaking anxiety in the context of the Socratic Method and oral arguments, and was appointed to the Fulbright Specialist roster to teach English legal writing in international law schools. As the author of The Introverted Lawyer, Heidi champions the power of quiet law students and lawyers to be profoundly impactful advocates, in their authentic voices.