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Listeners welcome back to the pod - today we will dive deep into the life of one of the most influential figures in the cruise line and maritime world. Our guest is a titan of the cruise line industry, a visionary entrepreneur, and a lifelong champion of global tourism his name is Manfredi Lefebvre d'Ovidio.  Manfredi has transformed his family business into a global leader in luxury cruising. Under his leadership, Silversea Cruises expanded its company offering travel experiences across all seven continents around the world. In a strategic partnership with Royal Caribbean Manfredi orchestrated the sale of a ⅔ stake in Silversea for a whopping $1 billion in 2018. This strategic partnership not only elevated Silversea's brand but also marked one of the most significant deals in the cruise industry's history. And lastly, Manfredi is the Chairman of The Heritage Group which is a private equity company that acquired 85% of one of the biggest luxury travel companies in the world Abercrombie & Kent - whose founder Geoffrey Kent was on the podcast just last month.  Today we are going to dive into the life and mind of Manfredi Lefebvre d'Ovidio.    00:12: Who is Manfredi Lefebvre d'Ovidio? 03:42: Manfredi's Recommended Books      05:56: Manfredi's Starts a Cruise Line 13:01: How this Billion-Dollar Founder Spends his Time 15:05: The Biggest Challenge Manfredi Experienced was September 11, 2001.  18:56: Manfredi Takes Over the Family Business 21:18: Manfredi Pioneers the Luxury Cruise Industry.  24:39: Why Manfredi Loves Being an Entrepreneur 26:13: Manfredi's Career Chapters 29:59: Manfredi Orchestrated the Most Significant Deal in the Cruise Industry.  32:47: Manfredi & Geoffrey Kent Built the First Expedition Cruise Ship 34:59: Manfredi's Daily Routine 37:13: Advice Manfredi Would Give His Younger Self 37:58: Things to Look for in Executives and Partners When You Bring Them On  40:25: What is Manfredi Most Proud Of?   Contact Info: https://www.manfredilefebvre.com/ https://heritagemonaco.com/ https://www.silversea.com/ Transcript:   [00:00:12] Chris: Listeners, welcome back to the podcast today, and we will dive deep into the life of one of the most influential figures in the cruise line and maritime world. Our guest today is a Titan in the cruise line industry, a visionary entrepreneur, a lifelong champion of global tourism, and his name is Manfredi LaFavre D'Ovidio. Manfredi has transformed his family business into a global leader in luxury cruising. Under his leadership, Silver Sea Cruises expanded its company, offering travel experiences across all seven continents around the world. In a strategic partnership with Royal Caribbean, Manfredi orchestrated the sale of a two third stake in Silversea for a whopping 1 billion in 2018. This strategic partnership not only elevated Silversea's brand, but also marked. One of the most significant deals in the cruise industry's history. And lastly, Manfredi is the chairman of the heritage group, which is a private equity company that acquired 85 percent of one of the biggest luxury travel companies in the world, Abercrombie and Kent, whose founder was actually on the podcast last month. So if you haven't listened to that interview yet, make sure you check it out. And today we're going to dive into the life and mind of Manfredi. Listeners, welcome to the show. Manfredi, welcome to the show. How are you doing today? [00:01:34] Manfredi: Not too bad. Not too bad. Can I add something to what you said? [00:01:38] Chris: Please do. Add or take away. Whatever you like. [00:01:41] Manfredi: Well, what happened is that as soon as I did my deal with Royal Caribbean, I did buy, uh, Abercrombie Kent, which recently I brought up to 100 percent shareholding, and I sold to Royal Caribbean subsequently one further that I owned, uh, in, uh, Silver Sea in exchange of Royal Caribbean shares and acquired another cruise line, which is called Crystal Cruises. [00:02:04] Chris: Ah, I did actually read about that. Forgive me for not putting that in there. [00:02:08] Manfredi: No, so it's just, the story goes on. And before Silver Sea, we had another cruise line, which was called Sydmar. Okay. [00:02:17] Chris: Was Sid, was Smar the one created by your father or was Silver Sea created by your father? Uh, [00:02:23] Manfredi: Sid Smar was acquired by my father with me because I was working with him at the time. And we bought, uh, the Cruise Line, which was one of the first cruise lines ever. And, uh, Sid Bar built the first free purposely built cruise ships, which were built in Italian shipyard fi can and LA in France. [00:02:42] Chris: Great. So that [00:02:42] Manfredi: was the beginning. Then we got an offer we couldn't refuse. We sold Smar. And we started Silversea together with my father, which I took over shortly after. [00:02:52] Chris: And that was in the 90s, correct? [00:02:54] Manfredi: That was, uh, we started in 92, we acquired in 86, Sidmar, sold it in 89, started in 92, uh, 91, Silversea, and, uh, we're ordering the ships, and then we started operating in 94. [00:03:10] Chris: Incredible. [00:03:12] Manfredi: So, and then in 2018, uh, we, I sold to Royal Caribbean and I bought in 2000, uh, actually was in 2019. The negotiation started earlier 2019. I bought Abercrombie & Kent. [00:03:27] Chris: That's right. Incredible. Um, so Manfredi, I was told by a mentor of mine a long time ago that the, uh, difference between a wealthy person and the average person is the information that we put in between the two ears that we have. and what we choose to do with it. And I hear you're an avid reader, so if it's okay with you, I'd like to ask about what you're reading right now and some of the more impactful, uh, books of your life. [00:03:59] Manfredi: Yeah, I tend to read two, three books in parallel. So now I'm reading the Silk Roads, number one, the old Silk Road and the new Silk Road. Then there is a new book which was written about the oil industry and the energy markets, which is very interesting. I don't remember now the exact title. And then, you know, other things which went back in time. An interesting View of the history of the United States of America, which is unconventional view. Ah, [00:04:34] Chris: do [00:04:34] Manfredi: you [00:04:34] Chris: know who, do you know who the author of that book was? [00:04:38] Manfredi: I can let you know. [00:04:39] Chris: Okay. [00:04:40] Manfredi: Um, it was recommended to me and I bought it and it's quite interesting. [00:04:44] Chris: Do you have two or three books that were the most impactful in your life? [00:04:50] Manfredi: Yeah, you know, but probably I'm, I, I had once, um, hepatitis, so I was stuck in bed for a long time and I managed to read all of War and Peace, the whole story. It's a massive book. In today's world, it's very difficult to read at all. [00:05:10] Chris: Yeah. Okay. Anything else, any others? [00:05:17] Manfredi: Oh, this is the one that comes to my mind immediately. The other ones are, you know, I try to always read something which will leave me something, uh, in knowledge. [00:05:27] Chris: Yeah. [00:05:28] Manfredi: A book that I loved was, uh, A Hundred Years of Solitude. [00:05:33] Chris: I've heard of that one. [00:05:35] Manfredi: There's a life in this village in Colombia, which goes through the civil wars in the country. It's quite interesting. [00:05:42] Chris: Nice. Um, so I kind of want to start this off about, uh, going back to your, your past and your childhood. And I'm curious about the first moment that you realized you had a passion for ships and cruise lines. Uh, do you remember that moment? [00:06:03] Manfredi: I can, uh, reconnected because when I was 14, my father told us, uh, he was We're going on a cruise. Now it's 14, it's uh, what is it, 56 years ago. It was really at the beginning. Nobody knew about cruises. And, uh, he, because his friend had his cruise line, which was called Sidmar, and so we went to all the way to Mexico, Los Angeles, took the cruise down the Mexico coast, and, uh, that was the first impact with, uh, uh, cruising. But I've been involved in shipping all my life, because my father was a ship owner, a professor of university of maritime law, and a lawyer, and he was always involved with shipping. So it's been all our lives that we've been involved with ships, we had yachts, and so on. We had shipping companies, we had ferry companies, we had all sorts of things. But that was a crucial moment because we sold this company, where I subsequently went to work. When I was 18. And then, uh, you know, we, we bought it. So it was a chapter here. You know, you go on a cruise and you work for them and then you buy them. Yeah. And then you see them. I hear your father was quite a, an interesting figure and he was a lawyer and he actually helped create the maritime law in Italy. [00:07:24] Chris: , and then You, you, did he start the cruise line, , the very first cruise line venture that you guys owned, or did he acquire it and then continue to run it and it became the family business? [00:07:39] Manfredi: He, we acquired it. [00:07:41] Chris: Okay. [00:07:42] Manfredi: And then, and when we acquired it, we built the new ships. And then they were so beautiful and were so, so innovative that we got a very good offer and we sold it. And then we started SilverSea. SilverSea is the first one that we started. In the past, you know, I had worked in other businesses. My father, with his, uh, partners had bought a big shipping company, which was listed on the UK Stock Exchange, which owned ships. It owned a very large, uh, Ship broker company and, uh, insurance broker company called Clarkson. It owned Maritime Insurance company. So he was always, uh, involved in that. He even had a fleet of tankers in Saudi Arabia at the beginning of the seventies. [00:08:26] Chris: Oh really? can you share about your father's influence on you? You know, as a young man, I could imagine, and a boy growing up, I could imagine, uh, a father who, I think about the influence my father had on me. Right. And I can imagine you and your father had a cruise lines. He is part of the maritime industry, um, or he was at least getting involved in cruise lines at the time. , How did that have an effect on you as a young man? [00:08:55] Manfredi: I mean, that's, uh, fundamental. He was an extraordinary person, an extraordinary father. And, uh, he was lucky he had a wife who always, uh, put him on a, uh, how do you say it when you put somebody on a pedestal? Pedestal for us. So we always had, and because he was working all the time, he was traveling a lot, working, and he would, his Sundays were because he would take Saturday to work always. On the Sundays, his vacation, his day was to pass the day working in our playroom. So he had a desk. His children were playing around and he was there working. And that was his, uh, his Sunday. So, uh, you know, it's an example of, uh, dedication to passion, to work dedication. And, uh, but he was still very present to us because he was a symbol. for us. So, uh, we always looked up to him. And then he would sometimes take one of the children. For example, he, when he had some, uh, launch of a new ship, would take one children with him. And so he created some moments for us, which he was pretty much always linked his life with his business, but he involved us. So he got us very much attached. And especially my two sisters, they were deeply in love with him and the same with me. I mean, I adored him. And, uh, when I was, um, uh, 18, he said, Okay, you go to university, you will have a desk in the office next to mine. You can listen to all my phone calls, join all my meetings, read all my papers. Asked me every question, and any day in the week, Saturday, Sunday, during the week, and so that I did, and then he would send me to his businesses. He had many businesses in various countries, Mexico, England, etc, etc. So I would go three months in his businesses. And then come back and study and go on with the university and then work with him. And, uh, so it was a very tight relationship. [00:11:10] Chris: What do you think was the most impactful lesson that you learned from your father? [00:11:16] Manfredi: You know, the most is to be very respectful of the others. He was, uh, the most, uh, Curtis person you can imagine with everybody, and it wasn't linked to the fact if you had anything to exchange with somebody, uh, somebody who was relevant for his business or for any other reason. He would be the same with anybody from the lowest level and, uh, business community or the people working for him in service to the highest level. It was true that everybody with extreme kindness and courtesy. And, uh, and would always be, uh, responding to anybody. So, it was this kind of attitude. Very humble, simple, very successful man. Uh, an incredible brain, but very humble and simple. [00:12:06] Chris: So let's switch to the roles that you play in your life now. So you're the chairman of the heritage group, which, uh, a heritage groups, a private equity group in a travel and tourism sector. Um, you're the chairman and orbital solutions, Monaco co chairman. And I guess you said, uh, are you no longer chairman at Amber Cromby Kent, or are you still co chair there? [00:12:27] Manfredi: No, I'm, uh, I'm the chairman. Geoffrey. sold me the steak, and he is the co chairman. I don't know what his exact title is. He's the founder chairman, let's say. Okay. He's not actively involved in the running of the business. He's very involved in everything, which is the product. [00:12:49] Chris: . And then you're a member of the board of Bucksense Incorporated, vice chairman of Monaco Chamber of Shipping, um, member of the executive community of World Tourism and Travel Council, and member of the board of SKULD Skold. Is that what that's pronounced? Skold? Skold. The maritime school in maritime insurance company based in Oslo. So I'm, I'm curious with all those, those titles and accolades, where do you spend the most of your time? [00:13:18] Manfredi: Well, first of all, they evolved, you know, some are gone and there's some new ones. [00:13:22] Chris: Okay. [00:13:23] Manfredi: And I spend most of the time, reality, I divide myself between three things. One is where I have the most relevant business opportunity where I focus a lot. [00:13:35] Chris: Okay. [00:13:35] Manfredi: Was like, I try to make sure that that things they are done well and they get my support. I, I cultivate very, uh, mature and capable management and then, and want them to, to, to drive, but I'm there to help them and to know everything which is going on. In any case, that's the first thing, which is very important. The second thing is whenever there's something which is not going that well, it happens to follow my laps. Because this is what happens with owners, you know. So there I dedicate with the team and to solve whatever there are some problems and something which is not going as I would wish to solve it. And the third thing is the things which give me satisfaction. So there are a number of things which give me satisfaction and I dedicate myself to. So now I've been recently appointed by the Sovereign Military Order of Malta. as ambassador to UNESCO and for charity and philanthropy, which is something which is not going to earn me a cent. It's going to cost me, but it gives me satisfaction. I use my capabilities, my relationships, my, uh, dedication to, um, better cause. So it's a mixed, I have the freedom of choice. [00:14:51] Chris: That's good. I was going to ask, , you mentioned about, you know, if there's ever a problem in the business, it comes to you, it comes to your desk. [00:15:00] Manfredi: I didn't mention the new businesses. Of course, I mean, new investment. I follow also. [00:15:04] Chris: Yeah. Did you share with us maybe one of the biggest challenges that you've had in your career when it came across your table, , and how you decided to handle it? [00:15:17] Manfredi: Oh, there's a very clear example. September 11th. I was in a bank negotiating the refinancing of the financing. It's a new ships. And in the bank, they tell me, they come, somebody rushing in, come, come and watch on the television. So there, we were on television, in the bank, because CTF financing for the company. And we saw what happened. So you can imagine from that moment on, what can happen to the travel business. [00:15:51] Chris: Yeah. [00:15:52] Manfredi: The world shrinks. Every place which has a Muslim religion or Arab language, Is disappears from the world. You cannot go there. It's a small world and uh, uh, people don't wanna travel. If they want on a plane, they will look if there's anybody who looks suspicious. And, uh, actually for some time, planes were suspended. So that was a very tough time and you have to hold the company together. And, uh, going through, uh, you know, all sorts of difficulties. You dedicate your time there and, uh, and succeeded. And then, the cruise industry recovers very fast, so it bounced back. But for some time, it was tough. [00:16:39] Chris: How long was that time period? [00:16:42] Manfredi: There is, I think that you can, the turning point was when President No. 43 went on the aircraft carrier. [00:16:51] Chris: Okay. [00:16:52] Manfredi: It was like a liberating moment. [00:16:54] Chris: Ah, okay. [00:16:55] Manfredi: Confidence came back. It was like a fantastic case of how to rebuild confidence in the consumers. [00:17:06] Chris: And, , what are, what are some of the ways that you held the company together, at least the, the morale of the company together during that time? [00:17:20] Manfredi: You know, they, they, they have to see that you're on top of everything and you can find the solutions. And I think that my people were quite confident. I had additional resources of my own, which I could put in to support the company. But I was trying to have the company support itself as much as it could by itself. But I had good relationships, and I got some incredible, uh, support by people. Um, really incredible support by people based on their trust and confidence. [00:17:54] Chris: What do you think was harder on the cruise line industry, uh, 9 11 or COVID? [00:18:00] Manfredi: 9 11. [00:18:01] Chris: Yeah? How come? [00:18:04] Manfredi: Well, 9 11 was, uh, wasn't only a travel space. And during COVID, most of the businesses were still going well, if you think about it. Some businesses actually had an incredible success. During the electrical container business. Well, during 9 11, it was simply the world was paralyzed. And the governments did not find a way to intervene to support the businesses. It was very, very tough. [00:18:34] Chris: , I guess that makes sense. , so okay, let's shift gears a little bit and, and we talked about your father and his impact on your life. , can you tell us a bit about when you took the company over, , what was that moment like for you and what were some of the decisions leading up to that that made you guys decide it was time? [00:18:56] Manfredi: Well, the decision was because we made a family partition. So I got, uh, in the division of the family assets, I got that business, like several things. And how it felt, well, you know, I had already been working with it. So it wasn't something new. And we always been very close. So I was participating to everything. It became my baby, only mine. And, uh, of course it, it was, uh, it, I must say that, uh, that choice or that moment, the fact of taking over, so it changed my life. Because from being the son of a wealthy man with many businesses, taking care of them together with him, suddenly I had something that was mine and I had to grow. And so I identified myself a lot with that company, with that product, with that success. And it became, after all, today became my legacy. [00:19:53] Chris: I am [00:19:54] Manfredi: especially that I'm not the only the son of a wealthy man from a family which has because we are a family which with 200 years of industrial history. [00:20:05] Chris: Oh, really? [00:20:06] Manfredi: Yes. [00:20:07] Chris: I didn't know that. [00:20:08] Manfredi: It started in, uh, in Italy and, uh, at the beginning of the 19th century with paper industry, banking, a number of things. So I'm not only that, I'm, uh, and I'm not only the son of a very successful man. I had my thing and I did it successfully and I've become an expert in the field. , so which allowed me. When there was another opportunity to buy to, which was during the, at the end of COVID, the beginning of the Ukraine war, to buy crystal cruises, to do it with great confidence, because I, I knew all the levers of the business, I knew the people to choose to bring on board, I knew where to go to get support for the generating the revenue, etc, etc, to restructure the ships. So, I could do it very well because I had full confidence of my knowledge of that industry, and the people had confidence on my knowledge of the industry, so they give me a lot of credit. [00:21:06] Chris: A friend of ours, Mr. Geoffrey Kent, , told me to, that you pioneered the industry, , the luxury area in both normal and expedition. So I'd love to learn more about how you did that and your strategies behind it. [00:21:18] Manfredi: How we did that was, we had, Sittmer was a typical cruise line. At the beginning of the cruise lines, they were transatlantic operators. And when the transatlantic routes, uh, became dry, no more passengers because people were flying, and from Europe there was no more migration to the U.S or to Australia or to South America, those ships needed to have a new employment, and they were converted into cruise ships. So that was the, uh, the beginning of that industry. So when we bought it, we bought it in an industry which was at its beginnings. And we built these two ships, three ships, which were the first ones to be built purposely. So that was, uh, uh, the, the, really the moment in which, uh, we dedicated to that great, , vision, because it was my father's vision that that could have been a great industry and had a great future. And then so on. And then we bought into, uh, then we developed Silver Sea. And I remember when we asked my father, Daddy, what, what is it you? really wish for. And he was 92, I think. And he said, Oh, I wish that Silver Sea will have 12 ships. And I think that we had six, maybe. It was impossible for him to see 12 ships. [00:22:34] Chris: Yeah. [00:22:34] Manfredi: But it was part of the, of really the, the passion that he had and that he gave me, this passion of, uh, and, uh, looking forward always. Not making a calculation of what you're going to make out of it and how it's related to your life, but the project, the vision, what you're building was quite, uh, driving. [00:22:59] Chris: And how many ships do you guys have now? [00:23:02] Manfredi: No, now we just started again. So we have two ships. Now we have to grow it. We start a new chapter. You see what you do when you turn 70. Some people retire. [00:23:11] Chris: Yeah. [00:23:12] Manfredi: Not in my family. [00:23:13] Chris: You start another business. [00:23:15] Manfredi: You start another business. In our case, we started more businesses because we started . We bought Abercrombie & Kent, which we're growing very fast and very much. [00:23:25] Chris: Yeah. [00:23:25] Manfredi: And then we bought again, the cruise line that we have other businesses also, which we run. So it's, uh, it's simply the fact that, uh, what is it that you, that you gives you enjoyment? And, uh, is it to play golf or is it to have, uh, in the morning, wake up and think of the things that you're doing, the projects that you have, how you can accomplish things. And, uh, so in our case, that is because of my father, who started when he was a, who started when he was very young and at 92, he was, he lived until 98. So he was still, uh, when he was at 98, he would do, still the first thing he would ask me is how are the ships going? And so it's part of that. My, the first Lefebvre, the guy in the, uh, at the beginning of the 19th century. He died when he was 84, which for those times, that's a very old age. Because he got pneumonia coming back from the board of his shipping company. So it's in the DNA of the family to work, uh, until you, you go. And it's not a question you already have the money to live well. It's a question of money as an instrument of freedom and to, realize yourself, to to achieve the satisfactions that you're looking for. In my case, I give myself a lot of other satisfactions. But the number one. is to be an entrepreneur! [00:24:54] Chris: That's most important to you to, to be known for as an entrepreneur. [00:24:59] Manfredi: Not to be known to know myself, that I am, I wake up in the morning and I'm busy. I have a lot of things which, uh, interest me. [00:25:09] Chris: Yeah I have a lot of things which I do, which interests other people. If I wasn't an entrepreneur, I wouldn't be here with you. It's very true. So [00:25:16] Manfredi: it's a very strong connection with the living world instead of going into the. Sleeping world. [00:25:24] Chris: I'm curious if you weren't in the shipping business or anything related maritime, , what business do you think you would be in [00:25:33] Manfredi: investment banking? [00:25:35] Chris: Yeah. How come [00:25:37] Manfredi: I always liked it a lot, but investment banking, private equity. investing in businesses, selling businesses, advising people, uh, working on. I, I worked when my father sent me around. Uh, he sent me also to some investment banks for some time to learn, to learn how that work, that will work. I don't know [00:26:02] Chris: if you know, but, , on our podcast, we're interviewing founders, a hundred founders of a billion dollar companies. And I always ask each guest the same question. , and it is, if you're going to break your career into chapters, what chapters would they be? And what would you name them? [00:26:23] Manfredi: A chapter is number one is, uh, the chapter in which I was a golden boy. Which means I was, uh, living, uh, a very, uh, prosperous youth with a daddy who adored me and wouldn't deny me almost anything. [00:26:40] Chris: Okay. [00:26:40] Manfredi: So understanding this, I, uh, I kept and I developed a strong, uh, uh, desire of accomplishing by myself. [00:26:48] Chris: Okay. [00:26:49] Manfredi: That was the first part. Then the second part was, uh, being like, uh, uh, a stamp on my father's back. Okay. Following him everywhere and, uh, listening to him, et cetera, and working together with him. What [00:27:02] Chris: Were the ages for chapter two? [00:27:05] Manfredi: Yeah, you can say, you know, from when I started working with him when I was 19. So let's say 20. Okay. And 20 a decade. Then I started to have diversified investments. Then, uh, that's another age. And then there was the age, which I took over the, the Silver Sea. [00:27:29] Chris: How old were you then? Became [00:27:30] Manfredi: my baby. [00:27:31] Chris: How old were you then when you took over? Silver Sea? [00:27:35] Manfredi: We're talking about a year, 2000. So I was, uh, 47. Nice. [00:27:40] Chris: And any more chapters after Silver Sea? [00:27:44] Manfredi: Yes. It's a new chapter, which is the continuation in a way of Silver Sea, which is, uh, which is happening now. But now my chapter is entrepreneur, but my enterprise is The family wealth. I see myself as somebody who is, uh, administrating the family wealth, not only to increase it, or first of all, keep it as it is and possibly increase it, but also to make it such that it is well transmitted to new generations. So my following, and so this requires a number of choices, which are different in your, in your relationship with the business of themselves, because I was permanently on top of the business. Now I want to, uh, support the manager to grow so that they can deal independently for me, benefit from my presence, but eventually one day they can, the company can go by itself. Yeah. So I joined the company that way, and that's all I'm trying to do it. So I'm trying to diversify risk, enhance liquidity very much so that the liquidity is always there for the family. So it's a different vision. When you're an entrepreneur, you're 47 and you take risks, you want to expand, you have to grow, you have to make, you have to make a jump in the size of your business. You have to go from four ships to actually work two ships to 12, 14, 16 ships. Yeah. So the company is a hundred percent yours. You don't have a public markets, you have to compete with credit, you have to do this and that. So it's a, you know, I had to finance my ships, I had to fly to China because that was the best market. So you'll find always the solutions to get the things to function. But that's when you're the full entrepreneur, then now it's a, it's a much more stable approach. Yeah. [00:29:45] Chris: Makes sense. , your partnership with Royal Caribbean, it was marked as one of the more significant deals in the cruises history, uh, the cruise industry's history. can you tell us a little bit about the unfolding of that partnership? [00:30:01] Manfredi: Well, it was easy. I mean, it was, uh, it wasn't easy. I mean, it was a simple process. I was, I wanted to build more ships, so I decided to open the equity of my company to investors. I informed my competitors that I was doing it, so not to have gossips all the time around. And then, uh, someone from Royal Caribbean, uh, came and said, could we be your investor? They said, I thought about it and I said, why not? And then at a certain point in the process, it evolved from then buying the majority. And so that's, I did. And I had a, a, so a, a stake in the role in the company. But then Covid came and Covid made clear everything first, all that the company had to be absorbed into Royal Caribbean. Mm-Hmm. because of the financial situation. 'cause it was, uh, was not easy for cruise lines and uh, um, and because, uh. And when you are the full disponent of a business, then you can't learn and being somebody who just participates. Yeah. And so it was a good way. We find a great deal, great deal for them, great deal for me. And uh, I got a big chunk of Royal Caribbean shares, which I'm happy to have. And so that's how it evolved. And I could start, I could buy a Abercrombie & Kent and start my own business. [00:31:28] Chris: , was that a pivotable moment in your life? [00:31:30] Manfredi: Sure. I mean, you know, you, you decide that you don't want to be, uh, what was I saying? Sixty six year old retired person with all the banks calling you to invest your money and private equity funds and all of these people asking you to underwrite their funds. But having a very easy life. Uh, very comfortable and deciding now to challenge yourself and to do something new, which excites you every moment, which is exactly the opposite direction, no? You have a capital event. Capital events don't happen many times in the life of an individual. [00:32:10] Chris: Yep. [00:32:11] Manfredi: So it happens. At that point, you have to make a decision. Are you going to go into a new world, which is the world of the person who is either entirely or half retired? Yep. Or you'll find a way to go back into the world of being active in the colony. That's what I decided. I [00:32:33] Chris: think it was a good choice. , Geoffrey also told me, , to ask you about how you became his partner on the MS Explorer, um, which was the first expedition ship that was ever built. [00:32:47] Manfredi: Well, yeah, I mean, it was fantastic. Um, so Geoffrey had this company that he had developed, you know, Geoffrey, as you and your followers know, is a fantastic and unique person. And he wanted to go and send a ship to the Antarctic to propose, to offer to his guests, his clients, the opportunity to go and see the Antarctic. But he wasn't a ship owner. So, we were launch, starting to launch SilverSea at the time. And, uh, we were approached by his consultants, who were going to do the management of this ship, which is a company called V Ships, which is one of the major service companies in the shipping world. And they introduced us, so we made a partnership there, which lasted for two, three years. And then he kept it on his own, but by then we were good friends. And we became even more friends because, uh, then, uh, I, I was next to him and, uh, he was the chairman of WTDC, and I was like his right hand there. And then we developed all the segments for Abercrombie Kent doing services to the cruise industry. He started with us. So Abercrombie & Kent does a lot of the best quality, um, uh, pre post or excursions for cruise industries, part of its business. So that we did together and we became great friends and we always try to do something together. But he did some deals with other people in the meantime on the equity. And then one day, he told me, why don't you buy Abercrombie & Kent? And so that's what we did. And we still work together and, uh, we're, we're going tomorrow. We're flying on, uh, to one of the crystal ships. [00:34:39] Chris: Yeah. [00:34:41] Manfredi: We say two days on it and then we fly back. , so we were always, uh, we do a lot of things together. I mean, [00:34:48] Chris: nice. I'm curious on, you know, and I'm sure this is a hard question to answer, but, , I would imagine for most entrepreneurs, their day to day is very different. , I would imagine yours is similar. , do you have any regular structure you like to keep in your days, even though. You have a thousand things that are thrown at you every single day and you have to change up as much as possible. Some people, for example, you know, have the same waking time every day or the same sleep time or, , the same diet or, , All different types of things. Are there, are there any consistencies or daily rituals that you have in your life? [00:35:25] Manfredi: The daily ritual is a weekly ritual, which is doing the Luggage, so I'm always traveling. Yeah. What is a recurrent? I come back from a trip. I start packing That's the most Methodic thing I do all the time. [00:35:45] Chris: Pack. Pack and unpack. [00:35:47] Manfredi: Pack and unpack, pack and unpack. And then schedule from assistant, assistant, I have to do this, this, this, this, this. Work on the planning, work on how I'm gonna do this. I can fit, fit the meetings. That's the most thing. Um, I try to, if I can, to swim during the day, but uh, as I travel all the time, it's very difficult. [00:36:10] Chris: , what about, I'm curious about, you know, entrepreneurs, a lot of it depends on the entrepreneur. Some people sleep very little, , some people sleep, , a lot and then work hard throughout the day. How about yourself? Are you a heavy sleeper? Are you a light sleeper? Are you getting six, seven hours a night every night on the same time or is it fluctuate? [00:36:30] Manfredi: No, I'm basically going, trying to take six, seven hours every night, trying not to go to sleep too late. This morning I woke up at 6. 30. Yesterday I went to bed at 11. 30. It was seven hours. It was a very tiring day, so I was tired. Uh, but it can be six, it can be seven. Rarely goes above seven, unfortunately. I would like to have more sleep if I could. And, um, but it's normally very regular hours. [00:37:01] Chris: , any advice that you would give yourself, , your younger self that you didn't know when you were younger, say at the age of 20 or 30, that you know now that you wish you knew. [00:37:13] Manfredi: You know, and anything which is not real estate. Already built in the state business number one thing to look at is the people you're going to be working with as partners as executives, because that makes or breaks or fixes anything. So whenever you choose to deal with the wrong partners or whenever you, uh, appoint or go into a business without having the right person. You're going to have some problems. [00:37:45] Chris: Yeah. What are some things that you look for in a partnership or an executive when you, when you bring them on? [00:37:52] Manfredi: They have to be, first of all, they have to be trustworthy. They have to be honest, trustworthy. They have to be hardworking people. And if they're hardworking people competent, they can make a lot of money. [00:38:05] Chris: I'm not stingy. So you pay them well, [00:38:07] Manfredi: yes, they may. They, they have good incentives. [00:38:11] Chris: Have you ever noticed any, any, any ways that you identify individuals like that? You, you mentioned trustworthy, hardworking, is it through reputation that you hear from other people? Oh, this individual's trustworthy. Uh, he or she has built, you know, this business, or is it personal experience? Do you want to meet with them, get to know them really well, sit down with them, how they interact with you? [00:38:35] Manfredi: Well, you know, now the last, uh, oh, it's, what is it? 25 years more, 30 years. As I've been in the same business, it's much easier because I, I know the people that I'm going to retain, or I'm gonna promote, I'm going to delegate to. So it's, it's quite easy because 30 years since, uh, we started, uh, SilverSea Cruises now it's, uh, the same market. So the CEO of Abercrombie and Kent Travel Group, which includes Abercrombie and Kent. And Crystal Cruz is a person who has been working with me for 14 years. [00:39:13] Chris: Yeah. [00:39:14] Manfredi: She joined Silversea, and then when she was extremely young, now she's still very young, but she's in her beginning of her 40s, and she's the CEO of the group. I know her inside out, she knows me inside out. So just full trust, a hardworking person, work ethics are extremely strong. That's fundamental because mine are extremely strong. So I can't deal when people tell me balance of life. Balance of life is, is not compatible to be running a competitive business. [00:39:50] Chris: How many hours a day do you say you work from from the time you wake up to the time you go to sleep? [00:39:55] Manfredi: Yes, basically I work that seven, what is it called, seven days a week, , although I work always that it is divided between days in which I work more and days in which I work less. So there are some days in which I work less because it's a Sunday or it's a vacation. So I will be working less, but I will always be working. It doesn't, I think it never happens a day in which I don't take care of something. [00:40:25] Chris: what would you say you're most proud of? [00:40:27] Manfredi: Most [00:40:27] Chris: proud of my [00:40:30] Manfredi: friends, my friends. I am very proud of the fact that I have great friends with a strong friendship. And I tell myself there's something right that you can do if you have friends of such good quality that are so attached to you and you're so attached to them. [00:40:52] Chris: I think that's a fantastic answer. And a lot of people would probably want to know a little bit more about that. , When I would imagine trustworthy, , is something that's important when you look for friends. But what are some other things that when you look for friends or friendships that are important for you? [00:41:13] Manfredi: Well, you know, the first of all, there's a generosity in the relationship. [00:41:16] Chris: Yeah. [00:41:18] Manfredi: If the, if the relationships are transactional, there's something which compromises the friendship. So it's just, there can be transaction with friends, but that must not be the basis of a friendship. So trustworthy, uh, based on the sentiment of friendship, the, the interest of seeing each other because of what puts you together, that both have, uh, memories or of a present or of things that interest you, that you're interested in talking to them, uh, sharing with them. So this is, uh, the basic thing. [00:41:59] Chris: I think that's a great way to wrap up the interview Manfredi. , one more question. What else do you want to do? Say in the next 10 years of your life, what are your goals? [00:42:09] Manfredi: Is that there are three things in parallel. One thing I want to have this, Abercrombie & Kent travel group grow and, uh, become very interesting and I do fantastic things. It's such a beautiful business that we enjoy every moment of it. The second thing is. Organize the rest of the world and, and also Abercrombie & Kent ownership in such a way that it can survive me well. And the third thing is, besides doing these things, is enjoying many things that I like. I like to travel, I like to read. Uh, I like to be with my friends. And, uh, so. And I like to do things which are not only tied to a monetary benefit. You know, having been successful from a financial point of view has to buy you, first of all, freedom of choice. Freedom of choice is how you spend your time. So how I spend my time is important. And And spending it, developing the business that we have created, is a satisfaction. Spending it, organizing the wealth, in a way that it can then be at the benefit of the persons I love is a satisfaction. Doing other things, cultivating myself, traveling the world, visiting the world, etc., is a satisfaction. Having the freedom to dedicate part of the time to this without Having to be obliged by other things and having the substantial means to do it is part of the freedom of choice that success gives you. [00:43:45] Chris: Well said. Manfredi, I want to thank you so much for the interview and thank you for sharing your time and your wisdom with our listeners. I love how you wrap that up, talking about the freedom of choice and relationships in your life. So Thank you so much. We're, , honored to have you on the podcast and, we'll see you next time on the show. [00:44:05] Manfredi: Thank you so much. Bye bye. Ciao.  

On October 13th, Canada's top court ruled that Canada's federal Impact Assessment Act (also known as Bill C-69 and sometimes called the “no-more-pipelines act”) is unconstitutional, with a 5-2 decision. To learn more about the decision and the implications for major projects in Canada and future environmental policy, we welcome Sander Duncanson, Partner, Regulatory, Indigenous, and Environmental at Osler to the podcast. Osler is a Canadian business law firm.   Sander was one of the authors of “Supreme Court of Canada finds the federal Impact Assessment Act unconstitutional,” a briefing published by Osler the day of the ruling.    Next, on the podcast, we talk with Chris Severson-Baker, Executive Director of the Pembina Institute, a Canadian environmental organization.  Here are some of the questions Jackie and Peter asked Chris: Have affordability issues reduced the focus on climate as a top concern? Do you see scenarios, such as the IEA's Net Zero Scenario, which assume a rapid decline in oil and natural gas demand as realistic? Do you agree with Alberta's moratorium on new permits for renewable projects? In your opinion, does Canada's oil and gas industry need a cap on its greenhouse gas emissions? What is Pembina's position on developing Canada's LNG export market? Do you view the plan for Canada to reach net-zero electricity by 2035 as achievable? What are your expectations for the upcoming COP28 meeting in Dubai?  Other content referenced in this podcast:  Danielle Smith's statement about the Supreme Court Ruling on X (formerly Twitter) Pembina's 2023 Alberta Climate Summit on October 26 in Calgary  Please review our disclaimer at: https://www.arcenergyinstitute.com/disclaimer/ Check us out on social media:X (Twitter): @arcenergyinstLinkedIn: @ARC Energy Research InstituteSubscribe to ARC Energy Ideas PodcastApple PodcastsGoogle PodcastsAmazon MusicSpotify

Chris Toomey is back! (For an episode.) He talks about what he's been up to since handing off the reins to Joël. He's been playing around with something at Sagewell that he enjoys. At the core of it? Serializers. Primalize gem (https://github.com/jgaskins/primalize) Derek's talk on code review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJjmw9TRB7s) Inertia.js (https://inertiajs.com/) Phantom types (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/modeling-currency-in-elm-using-phantom-types) io-ts (https://gcanti.github.io/io-ts/) dry-rb (https://dry-rb.org/) parse don't validate (https://lexi-lambda.github.io/blog/2019/11/05/parse-don-t-validate/) value objects (http://wiki.c2.com/?ValueObject) broader perspective on parsing (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/a-broader-take-on-parsing) Enumerable#tally (https://medium.com/@baweaver/ruby-2-7-enumerable-tally-a706a5fb11ea) RubyConf mini (https://www.rubyconfmini.com/) where.missing (https://boringrails.com/tips/activerecord-where-missing-associations) Transcript: JOËL: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Joël Quenneville. And today, I'm joined by a very special guest, former host Chris Toomey. CHRIS: Hi, Joël. Thanks for having me. JOËL: And together, we're here to share a little bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Chris, what's new in your world? CHRIS: Being on this podcast is new in my world, or everything old is new again, or something along those lines. But, yeah, thank you so much for having me back. It's a pleasure. Although it's very odd, it feels somehow so different and yet very familiar. But yeah, more generally, what's new in my world? I think this was probably in development as I was winding down my time as a host here on The Bike Shed, but I don't know that I ever got a chance to talk about it. There has been a fun sort of deep-in-the-weeds technical thing that we've been playing around with at Sagewell that I've really enjoyed. So at the core of it, we have serializers. So we take some data structures in our Ruby on Rails code base, and we need to serialize them to JSON to send them to the front end. In our case, we're using Inertia, so it's not quite a JSON API, but it's fine to think about it in that way for the context of this discussion. And what we were finding is our front end has TypeScript. So we're writing Svelte, which is using TypeScript. And so we're stating or asserting that the types like, hey, we're going to get this data in from the back end, and it's going to have this shape to it. And we found that it was really hard to keep those in sync to keep, like, what does the user mean on the front end? What's the data that we're going to get? It's going to have a full name, which is a string, except sometimes that might be null. So how do we make sure that those are keeping up to date? And then we had a growing number of serializers on the back end and determining which serializer we were actually using, and it was just...it was a mess, to put it lightly. And so we had explored a couple of different options around it, and eventually, we found a library called Primalize. So Primalize is a Ruby library. It is for writing JSON serializers. But what's really interesting about it is it has a typing layer. It's like a type system sort of thing at play. So when you define a serializer in Primalize, instead of just saying, here are the fields; there is an ID, a name, et cetera, you say, there is an ID, and it is a string. There is a name, and it is a string, or an optional string, which is the even more interesting bit. You can say array. You can say object. You can say an enum of a couple of different values. And so we looked at that, and we said, ooh, this is very interesting. Astute listeners will know that this is probably useless in a Ruby system, which doesn't have types or a compilation step or anything like that. But what's really cool about this is when you use a Primalize serializer, as you're serializing an object, if there is ever a type mismatch, so the observed type at runtime and the authored type if those ever mismatch, then you can have some sort of notification happen. So in our case, we configured it to send a warning to Sentry to say, "Hey, you said the types were this, but we're actually seeing this other thing." Most often, it will be like an Optional, a null sneaking through, a nil sneaking through on the Ruby side. But what was really interesting is as we were squinting at this, we're like, huh, so now we're going to write all this type information. What if we could somehow get that type information down to the front end? So I had a long weekend, one weekend, and I went away, and I wrote a bunch of code that took all of those serializers, ran through them, and generated the associated TypeScript interfaces. And so now we have a build step that will essentially run that and assert that we're getting the same thing in CI as we have committed to the codebase. But now we have the generated serializer types on the front end that match to the used serializer on the back end, as well as the observed run-time types. So it's a combination of a true compilation step type system on the front end and a run-time type system on the back end, which has been very, very interesting. JOËL: I have a lot of thoughts here. CHRIS: I figured you would. [laughs] JOËL: But the first thing that came to mind is, as a consultant, there's a scenario with especially smaller startups that generally concerns me, and that is the CTO goes away for a weekend and writes a lot of code... CHRIS: [laughs] JOËL: And brings in a new system on Monday, which is exactly what you're describing here. How do you feel about the fact that you've done that? CHRIS: I wasn't ready to go this deep this early on in this episode. JOËL: [laughs] CHRIS: But honestly, that is a fantastic question. It's a thing that I have been truly not struggling with but really thinking about. We're going to go on a slight aside here, but I am finding it really difficult to engage with the actual day-to-day coding work that we're doing and to still stay close to the codebase and not be in the way. There's a pattern that I've seen happen a number of times now where I pick up a piece of work that is, you know, one of the tickets at the top of the backlog. I start to work on it. I get pulled into a meeting, then another meeting, then three more meetings. And suddenly, it's three days later. I haven't completed this piece of work that was defined to be the next most important piece of work. And suddenly, I'm blocking the team. JOËL: Hmmm. CHRIS: So I actually made a rule that I'm not allowed to own critical path work, which feels weird because it's like, I want to be engaged with that work. So the counterpoint to that is I'm now trying to schedule pairing sessions with each of the developers on the team once a week. And in that time, I can work on that sort of stuff with them, and they'll then own it and run with it. So it makes sure that I'm not blocking on those sorts of things, but I'm still connected to the core work that we're doing. But the other thing that you're describing of the CTO goes away for the weekend and then comes back with a new harebrained scheme; I'm very sensitive to that, having worked on; frankly, I think the same project. I can think of a project that you and I worked on where we experienced this. JOËL: I think we're thinking of the same project. CHRIS: So yes. Like, I'm scarred by that and, frankly, a handful of experiences of that nature. So we actually, I think, have a really healthy system in place at Sagewell for capturing, documenting, prioritizing this sort of other work, this developer-centric work. So this is the feature and bug work that gets prioritized and one list over here that is owned by our product manager. Separately, the dev team gets to say, here are the pain points. Here's the stuff that keeps breaking. Here are the things that I wish was better. Here is the observability hard-to-understand bits. And so we have a couple of different systems at play and recurring meetings and sort of unique ceremonies around that, and so this work was very much a fallout of that. It was actually a recurring topic that we kept trying a couple of different stabs at, and we never quite landed it. And then I showed up this one Monday morning, and I was like, "I found a thing; what do we think?" And then, critically, from there, I made sure I paired with other folks on the team as we pushed on the implementation. And then, actually, I mentioned Primalize, the library that we're using. We have now since deprecated Primalize within the app because we kept just adding to it so much that eventually, we're like, at this point, should we own this stuff? So we ended up rewriting the core bits of Primalize to better fit our use cases. And now we've actually removed Primalize, wonderful library. I highly recommend it to anyone who has that particular use case but then the additional type generation for the front end. Plus, we have some custom types within our app, Money being the most interesting one. We decided to model Money as our first-class consideration rather than just letting JavaScript have the sole idea of a number. But yes, in a very long-winded way, yes, I'm very sensitive to the thing you described. And I hope, in this case, I did not fall prey to the CTO goes away for the weekend and made a thing. JOËL: I think what I'm hearing is the key difference here is that you got buy-in from the team around this idea before you went out and implemented it. So you're not off doing your own things disconnected from the team and then imposing it from on high. The team already agreed this is the thing we want to do, and then you just did it for them. CHRIS: Largely, yes. Although I will say there are times that each developer on the team, myself included, have sort of gone away, come back with something, and said, "Hey, here's a WIP PR exploring an area." And there was actually...I'm forgetting what the context was, but there was one that happened recently that I introduced. I was like; I had to do this. And the team talked me out of it, and I ended up closing that PR. Someone else actually made a different PR that was an alternative implementation. I was like, no, that's better; we should absolutely do that. And I think that's really healthy. That's a hard thing to maintain but making sure that everyone feels like they've got a strong voice and that we're considering all of the different ways in which we might consider the work. Most critically, you know, how does this impact users at the end of the day? That's always the primary consideration. How do we make sure we build a robust, maintainable, observable system, all those sorts of things? And primarily, this work should go in that other direction, but I also don't want to stifle that creative spark of I got this thing in my head, and I had to explore it. Like, we shouldn't then need to never mind, throw away the work, put it into a ticket. Like, for as long as we can, that more organic, intuitive process if we can retain that, I like that. Critically, with the ability for everyone to tell me, "No, this is a bad idea. Stop it. What are you doing?" And that has happened recently. I mean, they were kinder about it, but they did talk me out of a bad idea. So here we are. JOËL: So you showed up on Monday morning, not with telling everyone, "Hey, I merged this thing over the weekend." You're showing up with a work-in-progress PR. CHRIS: Yes, definitely. I mean, everything goes through a PR, and everything has discussion and conversation around it. That's a strong, strong like Derek Prior's wonderful talk Building a Culture of Code Review. I forget the exact name of it. But it's one of my favorite talks in talking about the utility of code review as a way to share ideas and all of those wonderful things. So everything goes through code review, and particularly anything that is of that more exploratory architectural space. Often we'll say any one review from anyone on the team is sufficient to merge most things but something like that, I would want to say, "Hey, can everybody take a look at this? And if anyone has any reservations, then let's talk about it more." But if I or anyone else on the team for this sort of work gets everybody approving it, then cool, we're good to go. But yeah, code review critical, critical part of the process. JOËL: I'm curious about Primalize, the gem that you mentioned. It sounds like it's some kind of validation layer between some Ruby data structure and your serializers. CHRIS: It is the serializer, but in the process of serializing, it does run-time type validation, essentially. So as it's accessing, you know, you say first name. You have a user object. You pass it in, and you say, "Serializer, there's a first name, and it's a string." It will call the first name method on that user object. And then, it will check that it has the expected type, and if it doesn't, then, in our case, it sends to Sentry. We have configured it...it's actually interesting. In development and test mode, it will raise for a type mismatch, and in production mode, it will alert Sentry so you can configure that differently. But that ends up being really nice because these type mismatches end up being very loud early on. And it's surprisingly easy to maintain and ends up telling us a lot of truths about our system because, really, what we're doing is connecting data from many different systems and flowing it in and out. And all of the inputs and outputs from our system feel very meaningful to lock down in this way. But yeah, it's been an adventure. JOËL: It seems to me there could almost be two sets of types here, the inputs coming into Primalize from your Ruby data structures and then the outputs that are the actual serialized values. And so you might expect, let's say, an integer on the Ruby side, but maybe at the serialization level, you're serializing it to a string. Do you have that sort of conversion step as part of your serializers sometimes, or is the idea that everything's already the right type on the Ruby side, and then we just, like, to JSON it at the end? CHRIS: Yep. Primalize, I think, probably works a little closer to what you're describing. They have the idea of coercions. So within Primalize, there is the concept of a timestamp; that is one of the types that is available. But a timestamp is sort of the union of a date, a time, or I think they might let through a string; I'm not sure if there is as well. But frankly, for us, that was more ambiguity than we wanted or more blurring across the lines. And in the implementation that we've now built, date and time are distinct. And critically, a string is not a valid date or time; it is a string, that's another thing. And so there's a bunch of plumbing within the way you define the serializers. There are override methods so that you can locally within the serializer say, like, oh, we need to coerce from the shape of data into this other shape of data, even little like in-line proc, so we can do it quickly. But the idea is that the data, once it has been passed to the serializer, should be up the right shape. And so when we get to the type assertion part of the library, we expect that things are in the asserted type and will warn if not. We get surprisingly few warnings, which is interesting now. This whole process has made us pay a little more intention, and it's been less arduous simultaneously than I would have expected because like this is kind of a lot of work that I'm describing. And yet it ends up being very natural when you're the developer in context, like, oh, I've been reading these docs for days. I know the shape of this JSON that I'm working with inside and out, and now I'll just write it down in the serializer. It's very easy to do in that moment, and then it captures it and enforces it in such a useful way. As an aside, as I've been looking at this, I'm like, this is just GraphQL, but inside out, I'm pretty sure. But that is a choice that we have made. We didn't want to adopt the whole GraphQL thing. But just for anyone out there who is listening and is thinking, isn't this just GraphQL but inside out? Kind of. Yes. JOËL: I think my favorite part of GraphQL is the schema, which is not really the selling point for GraphQL, you know, like the idea that you can traverse the graph and get any subset of data that you want and all that. I think I would be more than happy with a REST API that has some kind of schema built around it. And someone told me that maybe what I really just want is SOAP, and I don't know how to feel about that comment. CHRIS: You just got to have some XML, and some WSDLs, and other fun things. I've heard people say good things about SOAP. SOAP seems like a fine idea. If anything, I think a critical part of this is we don't have a JSON API. We have a very tightly coupled front end and back end, and a singular front end, frankly. And so that I think naturally...that makes the thing that I'm describing here a much more comfortable fit. If we had multiple different downstream clients that we're trying to consume from the same back end, then I think a GraphQL API or some other structured JSON schema, whatever it is type of API, and associated documentation and typing layer would be probably a better fit. But as I've said many a time on this here, Bike Shed, Inertia is one of my favorite libraries or frameworks (They're probably more of a framework.) one of my favorite technological approaches that I have ever found. And particularly in buildings Sagewell, it has allowed us to move so rapidly the idea that changes are, you know, one fell swoop changes everything within the codebase. We don't have to think about syncing deploys for the back end and the front end and how to coordinate across them. Our app is so much easier to understand by virtue of that architecture that Inertia implies. JOËL: So, if I understand correctly, you don't serialize to JSON as part of the serializers. You're serializing directly to JavaScript. CHRIS: We do serialize to JSON. At the end of the day, Inertia takes care of this on both the Rails side and the client side. There is a JSON API. Like, if you look at the network inspector, you will see XHR requests happening. But critically, we're not doing that. We're not the ones in charge of it. We're not hitting a specific endpoint. It feels as an application coder much closer to a traditional Rails app. It just happens to be that we're writing our view layer. Instead of an ERB, we're writing them in Svelte files. But otherwise, it feels almost identical to a normal traditional Rails app with controllers and the normal routing and all that kind of stuff. JOËL: One thing that's really interesting about JSON as an interchange format is that it is very restrictive. The primitives it has are even narrower than, say, the primitives that Ruby has. So you'd mentioned sending a date through. There is no JSON date. You have to serialize it to some other type, potentially an integer, potentially a string that has a format that the other side knows how it's going to interpret. And I feel like it's those sorts of richer types when we need to pass them through JSON that serialization and deserialization or parsing on the other end become really interesting. CHRIS: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. It was a struggling point for a while until we found this new approach that we're doing with the serializers in the type system. But so far, the only thing that we've done this with is Money. But on the front end, a while ago, we introduced a specific TypeScript type. So it's a phantom type, and I believe I'm getting this correct. It's a phantom type called Cents, C-E-N-T-S. So it represents...I'm going to say an integer. I know that JavaScript doesn't have integers, but logically, it represents an integer amount of cents. And critically, it is not a number, like, the lowercase number in the type system. We cannot add them together. We can't -- JOËL: I thought you were going to say, NaN. CHRIS: [laughs] It is not a number. I saw a n/a for not applicable somewhere in the application the other day. I was like, oh my God, we have a NaN? It happened? But it wasn't, it was just n/a, and I was fine. But yeah, so we have this idea of Cents within the application. We have a money input, which is a special input designed exactly for this. So to a user, it is formatted to look like you're entering dollars and cents. But under the hood, we are bidirectionally converting that to the integer amount of cents that we need. And we strictly, within the type system, those are cents. And you can't do math on Cents unless you use a special set of helper functions. You cannot generate Cents on the fly unless you use a special set of helper functions, the constructor functions. So we've been really restrictive about that, which was kind of annoying because a lot of the data coming from the server is just, you know, numbers. But now, with this type system that we've introduced on the Ruby side, we can assert and enforce that these are money.new on the Ruby side, so using the Money gem. And they come down to the front end as capital C Cents in the type system on the TypeScript side. So we're able to actually bind that together and then enforce proper usage sort of on both sides. The next step that we plan to do after that is dates and times. And those are actually almost weirder because they end up...we just have to sort of say what they are, and they will be ISO 8601 date and time strings, respectively. But we'll have functions that know this is a date string; that's a thing. It is, again, a phantom type implemented within our TypeScript type system. But we will have custom functions that deal with that and really constrain...lock ourselves down to only working with them correctly. And critically, saying that is the only date and time format that we work with; there is no other. We don't have arbitrary dates. Is this a JSON date or something else? I don't know; there are too many date syntaxes. JOËL: I like the idea of what you're doing in that it sounds like you're very much narrowing that sort of window of where in the stack the data exists in the sort of unstructured, free-floating primitives that could be misinterpreted. And so, at this point, it's almost narrowed to the point where it can't be touched by any user or developer-written code because you've pushed the boundaries on the Rails side down and then on the JavaScript side up to the point where the translation here you define translations on one side or, I guess, a parser on one side and a serializer on the other. And they guarantee that everything is good up until that point. CHRIS: Yep, with the added fun of the runtime reflection on the Ruby side. So it's an interesting thing. Like, TypeScript actually has similar things. You can say what the type is all day long, and your code will consistently conform to that asserted type. But at the end of the day, if your JSON API gets in some different data...unless you're using a library like io-ts, is one that I've looked at, which actually does parsing and returns a result object of did we parse to the thing that you wanted or did we get an error in that data structure? So we could get to that level on the client side as well. We haven't done that yet largely because we've essentially pushed that concern up to the Ruby layer. So where we're authoring the data, because we own that, we're going to do it at that level. There are a bunch of benefits of defining it there and then sort of reflecting it down. But yeah, TypeScript, you can absolutely lie to yourself, whereas Elm, a language that I know you love dearly, you cannot lie to yourself in Elm. You've got to tell the truth. It's the only option. You've got to prove it. Whereas in TypeScript, you can just kind of suggest, and TypeScript will be like, all right, cool, I'll make sure you stay honest on that, but I'm not going to make you prove it, which is an interesting sort of set of related trade-offs there. But I think we found a very comfortable resting spot for right now. Although now, we're starting to look at the edges of the Ruby system where data is coming in. So we have lots of webhooks and other external partners that we're integrating with, and they're sending us data. And that data is of varying shapes. Some will send us a payload with the word amount, and it refers to an integer amount of cents because, of course, it does. Some will send us the word amount in their payload, and it will be a floating amount of dollars. And I get a little sad on those days. But critically, our job is to make sure all of those are the same and that we never pass dollars as cents or cents as dollars because that's where things go sad. That is job number one at Sagewell in the engineering team is never get the decimal place wrong in money. JOËL: That would be a pretty terrible mistake to make. CHRIS: It would. I mean, it happens. In fintech, that problem comes up a lot. And again, the fact that...I'm honestly surprised to see situations out there where we're getting in floating point dollars. That is a surprise to me because I thought we had all agreed sort of as a community that it was integer cents but especially in a language that has integers. JavaScript, it's kind of making it up the whole time. But Ruby has integers. JSON, I guess, doesn't have integers, so I'm sort of mixing concerns here, but you get the idea. JOËL: Despite Ruby not having a static type system, I've found that generally, when I'm integrating with a third-party API, I get to the point where I want something that approximates like Elm's JSON decoders or io-ts or something like that. Because JSON is just a big blob of data that could be of any shape, and I don't really trust it because it's third-party data, and you should not trust third parties. And I find that I end up maybe cobbling something together commonly with like a bunch of usage of hash.fetch, things like that. But I feel like Ruby doesn't have a great approach to parsing and composing these validators for external data. CHRIS: Ruby as a language certainly doesn't, and the ecosystem, I would say, is rather limited in terms of the options here. We have looked a bit at the dry-rb stack of gems, so dry-validation and dry-schema, in particular, both offer potentially useful aspects. We've actually done a little bit of spiking internally around that sort of thing of, like, let's parse this incoming data instead of just coercing to hash and saying that it's got probably the shape that we want. And then similarly, I will fetch all day instead of digging because I want to be quite loud when we get it wrong. But we're already using dry-monads. So we have the idea of result types within the system. We can either succeed or fail at certain operations. And I think it's just a little further down the stack. But probably something that we will implement soon is at those external boundaries where data is coming in doing some form of parsing and validation to make sure that it conforms to unknown data structure. And then, within the app, we can do things more cleanly. That also would allow us to, like, let's push the idea that this is floating point dollars all the way out to the edge. And the minute it hits our system, we convert it into a money.new, which means that cents are properly handled. It's the same type of money or dollar, same type of currency handling as everywhere else in the app. And so pushing that to the very edges of our application is a very interesting idea. And so that could happen in the library or sort of a parsing client, I guess, is probably the best way to think about it. So I'm excited to do that at some point. JOËL: Have you read the article, Parse, Don't Validate? CHRIS: I actually posted that in some code review the other day to one of the developers on the team, and they replied, "You're just going to quietly drop one of my favorite articles of all time in code review?" [laughs] So yes, I've read it; I love it. It's a wonderful idea, definitely something that I'm intrigued by. And sort of bringing dry-monads into Ruby, on the one hand, feels like a forced fit and yet has also been one of the other, I think strongest sort of architectural decisions that we've made within the application. There's so much imperative work that we ended up having to do. Send this off to this external API, then tell this other one, then tell this other one. Put the whole thing in a transaction so that our local data properly handles it. And having dry-monads do notation, in particular, to allow us to make that manageable but fail in all the ways it needs to fail, very expressive in its failure modes, that's been great. And then parse, don't validate we don't quite do it yet. But that's one of the dreams of, like, our codebase really should do that thing. We believe in that. So let's get there soon. JOËL: And the core idea behind parse, don't validate is that instead of just having some data that you don't trust, running a check on it and passing that blob of now checked but still untrusted data down to the next person who might also want to check it. Generally, you want to pass it through some sort of filter that will, one, validate that it's correct but then actually typically convert it into some other trusted shape. In Ruby, that might be something like taking an amorphous blob of JSON and turning it into some kind of value object or something like that. And then anybody downstream that receives, let's say, money object can trust that they're dealing with a well-formed money value as opposed to an arbitrary blob of JSON, which hopefully somebody else has validated, but who knows? So I'm going to validate it again. CHRIS: You can tell that I've been out of the podcasting game for a while because I just started responding to yes; I love that blog post without describing the core premise of it. So kudos to you, Joël; you are a fantastic podcast host over there. I will say one of the things you just described is an interesting...it's been a bit of a struggle for us. We keep sort of talking through what's the architecture. How do we want to build this application? What do we care about? What are the things that really matter within this codebase, and then what is all the other stuff? And we've been good at determining the things that really matter, thinking collectively as a group, and I think coming up with some novel, useful, elegant...I'm saying too many positive adjectives for what we're doing. But I've been very happy with sort of the thing that we decide. And then there's the long-tail work of actually propagating that change throughout the rest of the application. We're, like, okay, here's how it works. Every incoming webhook, we now parse and yield a value object. That sentence that you just said a minute ago is exactly what I want. That's like a bunch of work. It's particularly a bunch of work to convert an existing codebase. It's easy to say, okay, from here forward, any new webhooks, payloads that are coming in, we're going to do in this way. But we have a lot of things in our app now that exist in this half-converted way. There was a brief period where we had three different serializer technologies at play. Just this week, I did the work of killing off the middle ground one, the Primalized-based thing, and we now have only our new hotness and then the very old. We were using Blueprinter as the serializer as the initial sort of stub. And so that still exists within the codebase in some places. But trying to figure out how to prioritize that work, the finishing out those maintenance-type conversions is a tricky one. It's never the priority. But it is really nice to have consistency in a codebase. So it's...yeah, do you have any thoughts on that? JOËL: I think going back to the article and what the meaning of parsing is, I used to always think of parsing as taking strings and turning them into something else, and I think this really broadened my perspective on the idea of parsing. And now, I think of it more as converting from a broader type to a narrower type with failures. So, for example, you could go from a string to an integer, and not all strings are valid integers. So you're narrowing the type. And if you have the string hello world, it will fail, and it will give you an error of some type. But you can have multiple layers of that. So maybe you have a string that you parse into an integer, but then, later on, you might want to parse that integer into something else that requires an integer in a range. Let's say it's a percentage. So you have a value object that is a percentage, but it's encoded in the JSON as a string. So that first pass, you parse it from a string into an integer, and then you parse that integer into a percentage object. But if it's outside the range of valid percentage numbers, then maybe you get an error there as well. So it's a thing that can happen at multiple layers. And I've now really connected it with the primitive obsession smell in code. So oftentimes, when you decide, wait, I don't want a primitive here; I want a richer type, commonly, there's going to be a parsing step that should exist to go from that primitive into the richer type. CHRIS: I like that. That was a classic Joël wildly concise summary of a deeply complex technical topic right there. JOËL: It's like I'm going to connect some ideas from functional programming and a classic object-oriented code smell and, yeah, just kind of mash it all together with a popular article. CHRIS: If only you had a diagram. Podcast is not the best medium for diagrams, but I think you could do it. You could speak one out loud, and everyone would be able to see it in their mind's eye. JOËL: So I will tell you what my diagram is for this because I've actually created it already. I imagine this as a sort of like pyramid with different layers that keep getting smaller and smaller. So the size of type is sort of the width of a layer. And so your strings are a very wide layer. Then on top of that, you have a narrower layer that might be, you know, it could be an integer, or you could even if you're parsing JSON, you first start with a string, then you parse that into a Ruby hash, not all strings are valid hashes. So that's going to be narrower. Then you might extract some values out of that hash. But if the keys aren't right, that might also fail. You're trying to pull the user out of it. And so each layer it gets a richer type, but that richer type, by virtue of being richer, is narrower. And as you're trying to move up that pyramid at every step, there is a possibility for a failure. CHRIS: Have you written a blog post about this with said diagram in it? And is that why you have that so readily at hand? [laughs] JOËL: Yes, that is the case. CHRIS: Okay. Yeah, that made sense to me. [laughs] JOËL: We'll make sure to link to it in the show notes. CHRIS: Now you have to link to Joël blog posts, whereas I used to have to link to them [chuckles] in almost every episode of The Bike Shed that I recorded. JOËL: Another thing I've been thinking about in terms of this parsing is that parsing and serializing are, in a sense, almost opposites of each other. Typically, when you're parsing, you're going from a broad type to a narrow one. And when you're serializing, you're going from a narrow type to a broader one. So you might go from a user into a hash into a string. So you're sort of going down that pyramid rather than going up. CHRIS: It is an interesting observation and one that immediately my brain is like, okay, cool. So can we reuse our serializers but just run them in reverse or? And then I try and talk myself out of that because that's a classic don't repeat yourself sort of failure mode of, like, actually, it's fine. You can repeat a little bit. So long as you can repeat and constrain, that's a fine version. But yeah, feels true, though, at the core. JOËL: I think, in some ways, if you want a single source of truth, what you want is a schema, and then you can derive serializers and parsers from that schema. CHRIS: It's interesting because you used the word derive. That has been an interesting evolution at Sagewell. The engineering team seems to be very collected around the idea of explicitness, almost the Zen of Python; explicit is better than implicit. And we are willing to write a lot of words down a lot of times and be happy with that. I think we actually made the explicit choice at one point that we will not implement an automatic camel case conversion in our serializer, even though we could; this is a knowable piece of code. But what we want is the grepability from the front end to the back end to say, like, where's this data coming from? And being able to say, like, it is this data, which is from this serializer, which comes from this object method, and being able to trace that very literally and very explicitly in the code, even though that is definitely the sort of thing that we could derive or automatically infer or have Ruby do that translation for us. And our codebase is more verbose and a little noisier. But I think overall, I've been very happy with it, and I think the team has been very happy. But it is an interesting one because I've seen plenty of teams where it is the exact opposite. Any repeated characters must be destroyed. We must write code to write the code for us. And so it's fun to be working with a team where we seem to be aligned around an approach on that front. JOËL: That example that you gave is really interesting because I feel like a common thing that happens in a serialization layer is also a form of normalization. And so, for example, you might downcase all strings as part of the serialization, definitely, like dates always get written in ISO 8601 format whenever that happens. And so, regardless of how you might have it stored on the Ruby side, by the time it gets to the JSON, it's always in a standard format. And it sounds like you're not necessarily doing that with capitalization. CHRIS: I think the distinction would be the keys and the values, so we are definitely doing normalization on the values side. So ISO 8601 date and time strings, respectively that, is the direction that we plan to go for the value. But then for the key that's associated with that, what is the name for this data, those we're choosing to be explicit and somewhat repetitive, or not even necessarily repetitive, but the idea of, like, it's first_name on the Ruby side, and it's first capital N name camel case, or it's...I forget the name. It's not quite camel case; it's a different one but lower camel, maybe. But whatever JavaScript uses, we try to bias towards that when we're going to the front end. It does get a little tricky coming back into the Ruby side. So our controllers have a bunch of places where they need to know about what I think is called lower camel case, and so we're not perfect there. But that critical distinction between sort of the names for things, and the values for things, transformations, and normalizations on the values, I'm good with that. But we've chosen to go with a much more explicit version for the names of things or the keys in JSON objects specifically. JOËL: One thing that can be interesting if you have a normalization phase in your serializer is that that can mean that your serializer and parsers are not necessarily symmetric. So you might accept malformed data into your parser and parse it correctly. But then you can't guarantee that the data that gets serialized out is going to identically match the data that got parsed in. CHRIS: Yeah, that is interesting. I'm not quite sure of the ramifications, although I feel like there are some. It almost feels like formatting Prettier and things like that where they need to hold on to whitespace in some cases and throw out in others. I'm thinking about how ASTs work. And, I don't know, there's interesting stuff, but, again, not sure of the ramifications. But actually, to flip the tables just a little bit, and that's an aggressive terminology, but we're going to roll with it. To flip the script, let's go with that, Joël; what's been up in your world? You've been hosting this wonderful show. I've listened in to a number of episodes. You're doing a fantastic job. I want to hear a little bit more of what's new in your world, Joël. JOËL: So I've been working on a project that has a lot of flaky tests, and we're trying to figure out the source of that flakiness. It's easy to just dive into, oh, I saw a flaky Test. Let me try to fix it. But we have so much flakiness that I want to go about it a little bit more systematically. And so my first step has actually been gathering data. So I've actually been able to make API requests to our CI server. And the way we figure out flakiness is looking at the commit hash that a particular test suite run has executed on. And if there's more than one CI build for a given commit hash, we know that's probably some kind of flakiness. It could be a legitimate failure that somebody assumed was flakiness, and so they just re-run CI. But the symptom that we are trying to address is the fact that we have a very high level of people re-verifying their code. And so to do that or to figure out some stats, I made a request to the API grouped by commit hash and then was able to get the stats of how many re-verifications there are and even the distribution. The classic way that you would do that is in Ruby; you would use the GroupBy function from enumerable. And then, you would transform values instead of having, like, say; each commit hash then points to all the builds, an array of builds that match that commit hash. You would then thumb those. So now you have commit hashes that point to counts of how many builds there were for that commit hash. Newer versions of Ruby introduced the tally method, which I love, which allows you to basically do all of that in one step. One thing that I found really interesting, though, is that that will then give me a hash of commit hashes that point to the number of builds that are there. If I want to get the distribution for the whole project over the course of, say, the last week, and I want to say, "How many times do people run only one CI run versus running twice in the same commit versus running three times, or four times, or five or six times?" I want to see that distribution of how many times people are rerunning their build. You're effectively doing that tally process twice. So once you have a list of all the builds, you group by hash. You count, and so you end up with that. You have the Ruby hash of commit SHAs pointing to number of times the build was run on that. And then, you again group by the number of builds for each commit SHA. And so now what you have is you'll have something like one, and then that points to an array of SHA one, SHA two, SHA three, SHA four like all the builds. And then you tally that again, or you transform values, or however, you end up doing it. And what you end up with is saying for running only once, I now have 200 builds that ran only once. For running twice in the same commit SHA, there are 15. For running three times, there are two. For running four times, there is one. And now I've got my distribution broken down by how many times it was run. It took me a while to work through all of that. But now the shortcut in my head is going to be you double tally to get distribution. CHRIS: As an aside, the whole everything you're talking about is interesting and getting to that distribution. I feel like I've tried to solve that problem on data recently and struggled with it. But particularly tally, I just want to spend a minute because tally is such a fantastic addition to the Ruby standard library. I used to have in sort of like loose muscle memory transform value is grouped by ampersand itself, transform values count, sort, reverse to H. That whole string of nonsense gets replaced by tally, and, oof, what a beautiful example of Ruby, and enumerable, and all of the wonder that you can encapsulate there. JOËL: Enumerable is one of the best parts of Ruby. I love it so much. It was one of the first things that just blew my mind about Ruby when I started. I came from a PHP, C++ background and was used to writing for loops for everything and not the nice for each loops that a lot of languages have these days. You're writing like a legit for or while loop, and you're managing the indexes yourself. And there's so much room for things to go wrong. And being introduced to each blew my mind. And I was like, this is so beautiful. I'm not dealing with indexes. I'm not dealing with the raw implementation of the array. I can just say do a thing for each element. This is amazing. And that is when I truly fell in love with Ruby. CHRIS: I want to say I came from Python, most recently before Ruby. And Python has pretty nice list comprehensions and, in fact, in some ways, features that enumerable doesn't have. But, still, coming to Ruby, I was like, oh, this enumerable; this is cool. This is something. And it's only gotten better. It still keeps growing, and the idea of custom enumerables. And yeah, there's some real neat stuff in there. JOËL: I'm going to be speaking at RubyConf Mini this fall in November, and my talk is all about Enumerators and ranges in enumerable and ways you can use those to make the APIs of the objects that you create delightful for other people to use. CHRIS: That sounds like a classic Joël talk right there that I will be happy to listen to when it comes out. A very quick related, a semi-related aside, so, tally, beautiful addition to the Ruby language. On the Rails side, there was one that I used recently, which is where.missing. Have you seen where.missing? JOËL: I have not heard of this. CHRIS: So where.missing is fantastic. Let's assume you've got two related objects, so you've got like a has many blah, so like a user has many posts. I think you can...if I'm remembering it correctly, it's User.where.missing(:posts). So it's where dot missing and then parentheses the symbol posts. And under the hood, Rails will do the whole LEFT OUTER JOIN where the count is null, et cetera. It turns into this wildly complex SQL query or understandably complex, but there's a lot going on there. And yet it compresses down so elegantly into this nice, little ActiveRecord bit. So where.missing is my new favorite addition into the Rails landscape to complement tally on the Ruby side, which I think tally is Ruby 2.7, I want to say. So it's been around for a while. And where.missing might be a Ruby 7 feature. It might be a six-something, but still, wonderful features, ever-evolving these tool sets that we use. JOËL: One of the really nice things about enumerable and family is the fact that they build on a very small amount of primitives, and so as long as you basically understand blocks, you can use enumerable and anything in there. It's not special syntax that you have to memorize. It's just regular functions and blocks. Well, Chris, thank you so much for coming back for a visit. It's been a pleasure. And it's always good to have you share the cool things that you're doing at Sagewell. CHRIS: Well, thank you so much, Joël. It's been an absolute pleasure getting to come back to this whole Bike Shed. And, again, just to add a note here, you're doing a really fantastic job with the show. It's been interesting transitioning back into listener mode for the show. Weirdly, I wasn't listening when I was a host. But now I've regained the ability to listen to The Bike Shed and really enjoy the episodes that you've been doing and the wonderful spectrum of guests that you've had on and variety of topics. So, yeah, thank you for hosting this whole Bike Shed. It's been great. JOËL: And with that, let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. If you have any feedback, you can reach us at @_bikeshed, or reach me at @joelquen on Twitter, or at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. Thank you so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. Byeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Am I drinking to much... In the latest episode of Overthunk Chris explores the Catskills and espresso martinis... Aaron offers advise of moderation then offers him a beer... OH! Wait! We also have our #1 FAN, Adriana Duran! Today is an exciting episode as we learn what gives our fan anxiety and talk through all our issues as per the norm... We also learn something about Chris' wife's driving. Buckle up and let's put the hammer down on the next episode of Overthunk. I know you've been anxious for it ;) Cheers!! Aaron and Chris ***Have a question or topic for us? Want to share something you're overthinking or anxious about leave us a message and we just might feature it in an upcoming episode!! https://anchor.fm/overthunk/message Have a suggestion for a guest? You can reach us with questions, comments and suggestions at overthunkshow@gmail.com Links: https://twitter.com/overthunkshow https://www.instagram.com/overthunkshow/ Resources: Crisis Text Line - Free 24/7 Support Text with a Crisis Counselor https://www.crisistextline.org/ National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1-800-273-8255 https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ Serenity Prayer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer Resources to Support Mental Health and Coping with the Coronavirus (COVID-19) https://www.sprc.org/news/resources-support-mental-health-coping-coronavirus-covid-19 Music from https://filmmusic.io "Killing Time" by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) Music from https://filmmusic.io "Celebration" by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/overthunk/message

Chris returns home from his secret mission (code name "Rugby") to reveal the findings of his investigations into al things Miami Dolphins. What he found out is shocking, appalling and quite frankly...outlandish that the mainstream sports media hasn't picked up on these Totally Real Miami News items. But never fear, Sam and Chris are here to make sure you are an informed citizen. Plus...Sam and Chris compare swag sizes and just how many brothers does Chris HAVE?!?!?! Enjoy and Welcome To Perfectville!

Katrina Ruth: So I think it might be the best thing that was ever invented in the history of mankind. Chris: I think it would be. It is. Welcome to Katrina Ruth. Katrina Ruth: Welcome to Katrina Ruth. I am Katrina Ruth Show I think you will find, hashtag. Katrina Ruth: Quick bring the kitchen over here so everyone can see your wizardry. Hello people of the internet. We have an amazing presentation for you today. I'm even going to call it a presentation. I'm going to be super American. Katrina Ruth: Hi Theo! Hang on. We is live! We is live. Okay. Don't even show them. We should do a [inaudible 00:00:59]. We can't just give it away right from the start. Chris: So... Katrina Ruth: We are going to talk about many things. I can't see how many people are on my live stream because that little thing is [crosstalk 00:01:08] Chris: Let's... Katrina Ruth: This makes me feel upset. Do you think it was kind of selfish of us that yesterday we had an entire conversation over lunch about recording it and sharing it with the world. Chris: It should always be recorded when we actually talk at the end of the day. What? Katrina Ruth: We have a WiFi issue already. We won't be foiled. No don't finish. It might have changed itself onto the hotspot. The hotspot of the villas. If you go into settings and see what WiFi it's telling you. Just talk amongst yourselves. Chris has a Wifi issue on his livestream. It's a presentation. It's a conversation. Chris: Do you see this? Katrina Ruth: I don't know. Maybe it doesn't care for having two live streams on it at once. Try again. Now, we're back. Chris: Ta-Da!! Great job! Katrina Ruth: Well done. So yesterday, we had an incredible conversation about being in fantastic shape and eating potatoes. Chris: Sponsored by carbohydrates. This episode. Katrina Ruth: This episode is brought to you by the letter P, for potatoes. Chris: We were extreme carbo-phobes. We both kind of came from the same school of thought. Katrina Ruth: The worst kind. Back in the day. Chris: [inaudible 00:02:45] Katrina Ruth: Just see what happens. Chris: We came from a very carbo-phobe... Katrina Ruth: Upbringing. I want to say upbringing. Chris: School of thought. Katrina Ruth: In the fitness world. Chris: In the fitness world for sure. Katrina Ruth: We are going to get to a point at some time, and we are going to reveal to you the best tasting super food blend in the world. Then we are going to sell it to you. With just incredible flare and pzazz. Chris: Jazz hands. Katrina Ruth: Your mind will be expanded. But first, we are going to tell you a few things. We have known each other for over 10 years. That's a long while anyway. Chris: Would be, yeah. Katrina Ruth: It would've been 2008. Chris: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: It's been 10 years this year. The first [inaudible 00:03:28] course in Sydney. We used to go to the same courses. We were indoctrinated as maybe you have been, into the idea that carbs are bad for you. You can't eat carbs. We are going to talk about many things today. Katrina Ruth: We are going to prove an amazing product. We are going to have a conversation about nutrition. Chris: I think this is also now printables or ideas on why we think you can be in better shape. Live a better life. Ultimately what we are doing and why we really connected, we went through so many bad things. I'll just speak from experience. From street dining, through competing as a fitness model, I went through a bout of bulimia. I went through really unhealthy relationships with food. It sucked. It was really bad. Chris: Now, I do things completely different and that's why we are laughing about it. We remembered while we were having lunch, we completely go by a different set up principles when it comes to food, movement, and life. We are so much happier. I'm in better shape. I am stronger. I literally beat my dead lift last week. This is all through not through dieting. Katrina Ruth: Oh you're back. How come much of this show is there? And only a little bit here. Chris: We are talking into two phones. Katrina Ruth: We have some high tech studio shoot set up. We are very impressive. We impress ourselves. Katrina Ruth: Mine is similar to what Chris just said. I went through fitness obsession days from when I was not even 20 years old. Then into fitness competing. I was a personal trainer for 13 years, that's how we met. Chris is from Sydney and I'm from Melbourne but we went into the same courses and we connected on our principals and values and outlook on life. Then we both started building on my brand and we both feel super successful on my brand. That's just a little bit about us. Katrina Ruth: I was so obsessive about food in my body. I thought I was really committed to health. I wanted to be really committed to health. I think like a lot of women and men, in my twenties, I was so desperate to look a certain way and I wanted to look a certain way. I thought I had to look a certain way in order to be good enough. Katrina Ruth: Can you do me a favour? Can you put the flashlight on my phone. The little light. No, no. The front of it. You see the flash button. Can you press that? I don't know if that makes a difference. Why does it look so dark. Okay, I won't worry about it. Chris: It's kind of the shading. Is it on the camera or no? Katrina Ruth: No. It's just my imagination. Katrina Ruth: I went through all the food obsession stuff. Ten years of eating with some bulimia off and on. At one stage, I was taking 50 or 60 supplements a day. Chris: Like Skittles. Katrina Ruth: I remember being in the gym and you would have a little bag with your supplements in it. It would have 30 different pills in it for each meal, minimum. Sometimes I think I had 40 and you needed a 20 minute break between [crosstalk 00:06:55] Chris: Have you ever thought about how much money you spent on supplements? Katrina Ruth: I might have some point. I always made more than I spend. It was good stuff. We would take some of the best supplements in the world and we were committed. We were doing what we thought was right. If you fast forward to now where we are both older. We both have families, kids, busy businesses as entrepreneur's, living location. Still just as committed to wanting to look and feel fucking amazing. In fact, I would say more committed. Katrina Ruth: At this point in life, there's no fucking way I'm going to take 30 or even 10 different supplements with each meal. I'm not going to do crazy extreme shit to my body any more. I still want to look and feel my absolute best. Which I think is a perfect segway into our amazing product. Chris: Exactly right. For me, this was born out of necessity. I literally looked at myself in the cupboard one day and was like, "This is a joke. Why is there so much going on. It shouldn't need to be this way whatsoever." This is how it was created. What is it that we need at the end of the day? What is it that we actually need to thrive? Let's just focus on that because we don't have the time to do the other stuff. Chris: Time is our most precious asset that we have right now. Katrina Ruth: We don't want to, we don't have the time. I kept buying supplements and they just kept sitting there and then I would feel guilty about it. I do know and understand that in a perfect world you shouldn't need supplements but it's not a perfect fucking world right? We are absorbing so many toxins continually from the environment. We are not always eating ideal food or getting enough sleep and stress. There's so many other considerations. Katrina Ruth: Both of us with our knowledge and backgrounds, if you want to be at your absolute peak and have a standard of excellence in your brain or your body, your gut and all those things. How you look as well, then it is beneficial to take an amazing quality supplement but you're not going to take all this shit. Katrina Ruth: I really tried so hard to get into the greens powder thing. As a fitness queen from way back and somebody who is still obsessive about fitness I was like, "I got to do this freaking greens powder shit." All my friends would be getting it down and working it down and I'm just a little bit defiant, you know? Katrina Ruth: Your screen just exited itself. Your phone is just like it's not happening. I'm a little defiant. A lot of people I know would force these vile tasting greens powders down because they were like, "It's so good for you." I would buy it. I think at one stage I had 10 different containers in my cupboard and I would just not take it. Like most of the people who follow me online, I'm a rebel. I'm not going to do something that doesn't feel good for me. Katrina Ruth: I'm done with the green thing even though I know it's so good for you and amazing. You can see this story is in a long drawn out many, but I think we should reveal our product and then maybe talk a little bit about how this came about. I don't know. Chris: Let's do it. Let's reveal it right now. Katrina Ruth: Reveal, wait! Send a love hash out if you want to see our product. Send me the love heart. Chris: Let's go. Should we wait? Katrina Ruth: Don't try to wait for the love hearts. Make them work for it. Chris: You got to. Katrina Ruth: You got to. Chris: Make the love hearts. Katrina Ruth: My audience knows that I love-[crosstalk 00:10:28] That was really cute and it's broken. I feel like you guys can go more. Go more. Go More. You can do it. Chris: That's very funny. That's so cute. Katrina Ruth: They know what I like. They take care of me see. Chris: Oh, it's like a flower. [crosstalk 00:10:45] Katrina Ruth: How long did it take to formulate this? Chris: It's about two years in the making. Can I just say something as well? Katrina Ruth: Say it all. Chris: When you said, we used to take the best supplements in the world, this is actually made by the same manufacturer. Katrina Ruth: It is the best pharmaceutical grade stuff in the world. All U.S. based. Incredible quality. There it is. There's our product. We are ready to bring it to market. Chris: Super food blend, the company that we have formed is My body blends because it's really all about your body. It's like what is it that you need? The blend of everything you need. That's kind of the conceptual of what's come through. Chris: The reason that we've chosen a chocolate greens to start off with, is number 1, this is the best tasting greens you will ever drink. I'm so happy to say that. It is the best. We put a lot on the line for that. Katrina Ruth: I have footage of over 20 entrepreneurs who've taste tested this at a party at my house. Late last year they were the first to taste test it as far as the public. I'm not kidding. Every single person was like, "Give it to me now, I need to buy it now." They have basically been harassing me ever since. Chris: So sorry to you for making you wait. Katrina Ruth: Everybody's whose tried it's actually here now. Chris: So sorry. Katrina Ruth: It is so good. Chris had done the work and put the time and effort into this to create this and bring the formulation to life. When he was first telling me on how to taste it, I was like, [crosstalk 00:12:20]. We were here in Bali have dinner together and he was like, "I will bring you some around tomorrow and you can try it." I'm like, "Okay, sure I'm going to try it obviously. Sure Sure." Everybody in the health market says that their product tastes amazing. You're like, "It's palatable if I hold my nose." Katrina Ruth: Then, we made some up. What a great idea! Let's have a live demonstration right now. Suffice to say, when I did try it, I was like, "are you kidding me?" It's so hard for me to not curse. I'm trying to restrain my language here. It just comes out. It tastes phenomenal. We are going to tell you about everything that is in there in a moment. Katrina Ruth: What do you need? We have a bowl of ice that we prepared earlier. Actually the butler brought it. Who takes a greens powder currently? Do you take a greens powder? Don't put your hand up, I'm not going to be able to see you. Put a comment in. Do you take a greens powder? I wonder why your live stream is sideways. Your comments are showing up sideways. Chris: It's Instagram. Katrina Ruth: Oh, your on insta. Chris: Facebook kept crashing. Katrina Ruth: Oh okay. Cool. That's why it's staying up there. Katrina Ruth: Do you take a greens powder currently? Or, do you have the greens powder in your cupboard that you feel guilty about not taking because it tastes so bad. Chris: How many different greens have you had before? Katrina Ruth: Well, I've purchased like 10. Then tried one scoop of it. Trainers and friends kept recommending which ever one. Chris: I've had about 30 or above. Katrina Ruth: Then I used to have to put 4 or 5 lemons or limes in them in order to make it drinkable which is not terrible. Chris: Like putting it in a smoothie or something else. Katrina Ruth: But then you kill the smoothie. It's not the worst thing in the world. It's like you would force it down. Katrina Ruth: Theo says, "Used to but haven't in a while." Did you make it strong? Chris: Exactly, you tell the story. Katrina Ruth: But we were going to do a- Chris: What happens when you're having something really good? Let's say you are having a chocolate greens. Maybe it's a really good coffee. Or something else you can mix up in water or a shake. The dilemma that you have is what happens when you get right to the end and you've got maybe a little bit too much for one serving? Katrina Ruth: Like one and a half scoops left. Chris: Yeah, like one and a half servings left. Do you have one really good one? Or, do you break it into two? I'd love to know your answers because we went through and we had the exact same answer yesterday. Katrina Ruth: What a dilemma. Do you go with two half assed ones? This is a true story because I've had three bottles of the product at home. A bunch of my greedy friends kept coming around and helped themselves. Literally people would come to my house, no kiss hello, just like, "Where's the chocolate greens Katty? Can I have some?" I'm not making this up. Chris: That's rude. Katrina Ruth: Mainly the boys. The girls are a little more polite. This is a true thing, right? So then it went really quickly. Then there was enough left for one really amazing shake. I would go like, "It's my last chocolate greens powder until we launch this thing." It was just the samples. So I'm going to have one amazing one or two half assed ones. Well, guess what you think I did? Katrina Ruth: Shauna says, "One big assed one." Yeah, we were on board with that as well. Alright, let's do a live demonstration right now. Oh my god. This is the most amazing thing I ever tasted. We should manufacture and sell this. Chris: It's almost our conversation. Katrina Ruth: Can we do that? That really was my reaction. The first time I drank it I was like- Chris: That's so funny. Katrina Ruth: Holy shit. I feel like it's not possible to impact to you how good this tastes. I feel like you think I'm probably taking this up a little bit. I'm not and I did give it to 20 entrepreneurs when they came to a party at my house. We've got all their testimonials and we have their live immediate reactions on media. We filmed there initial reactions. We will release that video on Monday. 100% of them were like, "Holy shit!" And they were glugging it down like thirsty nomads in a desert out of Vera Wang glasses. Katrina Ruth: It's incredible. It tastes so good. Honestly, I said to Chris, "Can you bring around some of the samples today so we can use it on the live." My real reaction is that I just wanted to drink it. Screw the live. I just wanted to have some. Chris: It's perfectly fine. I think there are a few things we can talk to when it comes to the actual product. Number one, I don't care how healthy or good it is for you. If you can't take it. Or if it's not nice and you can't continue on with it, it's pointless at the end of the day. Katrina Ruth: Right. You're just going to leave it in your cupboard which is what I did and I'm super health orientated, right? Chris: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: But I still didn't take it. Chris: Exactly. You're very motivated individual. You're a go getter. You make stuff happen. Still, if something tastes like ass, you're not going to drink. Katrina Ruth: I don't hate ass. You heard it here. I don't. Some people will. Some people will force it down. A lot of friends and followers are defiant by nature and I don't want to do something that doesn't feel good for me even if I know it is good for me. Chris: You shouldn't. Katrina Ruth: I believe there is a way for everything to feel amazing. Chris: It's like a diet. A diet can be really good for you but if you're not going to follow it then it's pointless because you're never going to stick with it and you're never going to get the results with it. Hands down, it's as simple as that. Katrina Ruth: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-we should talk about the screw macros after this. Chris: Yeah, we will. We will talk about those macros. That's why number one, it does taste so good. You're probably like, "Okay, you're just saying that." But no...literally it's this good. Chris: When my daughters ask for chocolate, they are actually asking for this and that's what they think as a chocolate drink. It's filled with the good stuff. We can talk about the signs for the good stuff, why its got a super veg antioxidant blend. Why it's got a fruit anti-oxidant blend. Why it's got digestive support in it. Why its got a probiotic blend. Why it's actually only flavoured with stevia so it's a good sweetener. It's non GMO. It's gluten free. It's good. That's the thing. Chris: We wanted to have the best quality product because it's going to have to be good, we have it. Katrina Ruth: We both have an extremely high standard when it comes to what we put into our bodies. We've both been in the fitness industry collectively for decades. It's just how it is. If you are going to bring a product to market, it's got to be the best in the world. It's not let's just label something and sell it out there. That's why it has taken several years to bring this to life. This is a huge big dig. Two years of formulating and another six months or so trying to figure out amazon subscriptions. Katrina Ruth: We did it right and we are so proud of this. We are about to give you an insanely amazing [inaudible 00:19:35]. Chris: Maybe we should say, what we are really doing is getting everything ready. This is only for people who are serious with their health and fitness. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. Kind of like an inner circle. Chris: Yeah, that's what we thought. People that we know are going to be jumping on board with this. The people that are like us who are in our inner circle and that's what we like. Number one, what we are going to be doing on Monday and what you will be getting access to on Monday, you literally won't be able to get access to any other time. Katrina Ruth: It's going to blow your mind. Chris: We are making it so much of a no brainer for you to actually want to join us. It goes beyond this. Number one, supplements aren't the be all end all. We going to be the first people to say, it's not about supplements. It's about helping you eat right, move right, live right and be happy with what you are doing day to day. That's going to be a big part of what we are doing. Chris: I even included it in my book as well. I freaking wrote a book that's all about this. Katrina Ruth: A scary amount of references in the back. Chris: 220 scientific references that goes into this as well. The food quality that we have these days isn't as good as what we need to thrive. We have a lot more stress and we have a lot more chemicals in our environment as well. So therefore we need that little bit of extra. Chris: If you are a believer that you need to get everything from your food, I'm not 100% on board with you. The model lifestyles that we live, don't allow that. Katrina Ruth: I think that's true in theory. I agree that's the ideal but is it available? No it's not. Chris referenced stress and I'm just thinking of the pace we live our lives. You kind of want to have it all right? You want to have the thriving business or career and the relationship and the family, if that's relevant, the active social life, and fun and adventure and look and feel amazing as well. If you want to have it all, that's available for you. That pace of life is not necessarily what we were originally designed for and in this environment as well. Chris: This environment is different. This is pretty sweet. [crosstalk 00:22:08] Katrina Ruth: Which is why we are in Bali. You know what I mean. There are so many things that rob out food of nutrition and this is simply about putting into our bodies what is meant to be there in the first place. Treating your body as the premier machine. I've always loved that saying, If you had a Ferrari and you drove it around town, like at an insane speed. Never took care of it and just fully trashed it at some point in time it's going to be a pretty banged up Ferrari. Katrina Ruth: Your body is a high quality vehicle so why not take care of it as one? We made this incredible product and have an incredible supportive community around which includes access to us and to our teams. So many cool things because we are so committed to sharing with our tribe and our like minded friends, clients, etc. There is a really easy and simple way to take care of your nutritional needs. Katrina Ruth: Specifically thinking about busy and driven people, who are conscious of their health in a very real sense; digestive health, mental health, emotional health, physical health. Who also want to look hot and feel hot. I feel like looking hot reflects how you feel. That comes from how your health is on the inside. You want to be operating at a high performance level in different areas of life. Katrina Ruth: Those are kind of the three areas that we address that body, brain and beauty. Chris: Totally. Katrina Ruth: I came up with that. Chris: Obviously. You really just made that up. Katrina Ruth: Carlos Kate says, "What makes it taste like chocolate?" Chris: It's actually the cacao beans. You can see that it has chocolate bean powder which is the natural flavour in it. Katrina Ruth: So good. Chris: Great question. That's why it tastes like chocolate and it is the good stuff. Katrina Ruth: Let's tell people about the offer. On the sales page, which we aren't going to give today. We are going to give it on Monday. We will tell you about this now and how it's going to work. If you definitely want to know when the cart opens, then comment below on this live stream. That way we can come back and notify you. Katrina Ruth: Once you go over there on Monday and read over the sales page, if you wanted to, you can see a whole lot more of the kinds of ends and outs of the formulation- Chris: Technical sides. Katrina Ruth: All that sort of stuff. We are giving you the highlights reel right now. What do we got for these guys on Monday? Chris: There's two big things that we want to be able to give you as apart of what we are doing with Mind Body Blends. One, is the top quality product. You are going to be able to get access to this every single month. It will last you one month. Chris: The second is community. What so many people are lacking right now, is the help along the way. This is where we want to give you the right information. It's not about more information. The first quote that I put in my book was from Derek Sivers. It says- Katrina Ruth: I like Derek Sivers. Chris: I have such a bro crush on that guy. Katrina Ruth: That's so cool. I didn't know you were into him. Chris: I absolutely love him. The quote is, "If it was just more information we need, we'd all be billionaires with perfect abs." It's not about more information. It's not about what you can get on google, watching another video, listening to another podcast, or trying to dive into another book. Chris: What's actually going to create transformation, information to transformation, that's where we want to give you the information so you know what it needs to do. Katrina Ruth: Some Perfecatation. Chris: Oh, I like that. Exactly. Katrina Ruth: And transformation. Chris: She's wired. Katrina Ruth: It's because I had the chocolate greens. My brain powers are activated. I want some more please. Chris: Yes ma'am. Katrina Ruth: Thank you. Chris: What we want to be able to give you, not just the product itself. We are going to be getting you to join the community. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. Critical Chris: This is about building the Mind Body Blend Tribe. Where we are going to be helping you to know what to eat, how to move, how to live. Giving you a behind the scenes and giving you the answers so you know that you can be in the best shape. Supplements aren't the be all end all, okay? We are going to be the first ones to say that it isn't about taking the product. You've got to be able to do the other basics first. Chris: You've got to move right. You've got to eat right. You've got to sleep right. You've got to be happy with your life and thriving in all areas of your life. This is going to be the icing on the cake. Katrina Ruth: Yeah, I love that you just said that. While we are obviously incredibly proud and excited to bring this product to market. Here's the flat out reality. I've given this to well over 20 of my clients and friends. Probably about 30 people in total. 100% of people were like "Oh my god. How quickly can I get this?" Pretty much all of them have followed up and asking if it was ready yet. Katrina Ruth: It tastes so good. People just want to keep drinking it. Then, when you add the high level ingredients, literally the best in the world. How we cover digestion probiotics. It is a no brainer as Chris said. I like to call it a Hell yeah no brainer offer which is what I tell my clients. Katrina Ruth: I know you want to hear the price point for everything we are doing for you. You're going to try it, and if you try it, there's zero doubt in my mind that you are going to continue to order it. We wouldn't bring anything other than that to market. Katrina Ruth: However, I love that Chris just spoke about, we are not here to give you a magic full of solution. Let's not dilute ourselves, are walking around with an exceptional quality of health, physicality, lifestyle, etc. just from taking this, right? It's coming from a way of life. It's coming from our underlying value system. Katrina Ruth: What the Mind Body Blends Community is about, it's about being in it for life. The life that you want to live for life. We really see this as an incredible community to obviously support year round health, nutrition, fat loss, brain power, all that cool stuff. We have so much cool content we have already created. Chris: It's disgusting. Katrina Ruth: Over 12 months of work content already created. Just teaching you everything from our combined expertise of years and years. Sharing and educating with you. Mostly we want to provide that community of like-minded people who are committed to their health, having it all in body, business, career, and in life. Chris: Kat actually just spilled the beans right there. When we were having dinner- Katrina Ruth: The cauliflower. Chris: Cauliflower and chicken. Katrina Ruth: Oh my god. How you felt about that cauliflower before you tasted it. It's how I felt about this. You were like, "I'm sure it's great Kat." Then when you tasted it you were like, "Oh my god!" Chris: Cauliflower is good but it can't be that good. It was legitimately amazing. Katrina Ruth: What were we talking about? Chris: The conversation went to having it all. I was like why do we make so many compromises in life? Why do we say, "Oh I want to build a great business. I want to build a great career but I therefore I have to let my body go and I get fat and I get inflamed. I'm getting unhealthy. Why do I become a dad?" Therefore I have to not be able to build my business or I get a Dad bod which is a bad thing. All of those things. Chris: There's so many compromises we make in life. Stop making all these compromises. Katrina Ruth: Right, you get to have it all. Chris: Just be able to have it all. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. Chris: I love it. Katrina Ruth: Kate said, "Can we sent the list of ingredients because she might want to share it with her clients." We can do that but it's also on the sales page right? Chris: Totally. Yes, so on Monday, you will get all access to that stuff. Katrina Ruth: Are we going through the prices now? Chris: No, hold your horses. Katrina Ruth: Kate asked for that too. Chris: Sorry Kate. Katrina Ruth: This is a pre-launch, Monday we are opening the cart. We are pre-launching the pre-launch right now. That's what's happening right here. Monday the cart goes open where you can jump into our community and some amazing offers on this. We are doing a one time never to be repeated. What we call "Founding Members deal" situation to honour those in our community who are already waiting for this and have had enough of us taking so long with it. Katrina Ruth: We already know so many people who are like, "Just give it to me. Where do I sign up? I don't care about the details." We feel that there is going to be other people who are hearing what you are putting down. I'm willing to put my faith in you. We are giving you an incredible offer with that when we go live on Monday. We will give you all the details of that. Katrina Ruth: On Monday, we will do a live stream as well from our Facebook page for the group. Helen says, "I'm totally sold of course." Kate says, "Do you have a trade price?" I think we will just go through all prices on Monday, right? Chris: Yeah. Totally. Legitimately Monday, you will get access to the price. The big thing we wanted to do is build the community at the start. We are going to go worldwide with this. We are going to go into retail everywhere with this. Katrina Ruth: We are flying a jet. Chris: Yeah. That as well. The biggest thing is that we wanted to make sure that we've got this community with us at the start. We build together. Katrina Ruth: Try to make members. Chris: Exactly right. Katrina Ruth: We always honour those people who are fast action takers just like we are who want to jump on it straight away. Chris: Those people who get results. Katrina Ruth: Of course. Those people who don't over think. Chris: Exactly. Should we get them to join-[crosstalk 00:31:58] I put it into my girls smoothies in the morning. It mixes really easily with water. Katrina Ruth: It's just water and ice. I really enjoy it with just water and ice. Chris: It goes really well with black coffee. Katrina Ruth: I may have made it into a Paleo espresso. It goes great with vodka. It really does. Chris: Or hot coconut milk. Katrina Ruth: I haven't tried that. There were plenty of entrepreneurs at my house that were drinking it with Paleo Espresso Martini's. We put cinnamon on top. Chris: We have a video. We will put it on on Monday. You will see everybody- Katrina Ruth: We put cinnamon on top to make it extra healthy. It tasted amazing. Everybody was just like, "Give it to me. Give me more." What else were you saying? I think I cut you off. Chris: Are there any other questions? Katrina Ruth: No. No. That's all the questions. Chris: Okay. Katrina Ruth: We are going to give them a link to what sir? Chris: Should we give them the link to the private group? The Mind Body Blends Group? Katrina Ruth: Yes, can you? Chris: Actually I already have the URL. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. Just scroll here. Chris: Got it. Katrina Ruth: Chris is just giving you now a link to our closed Facebook community that already exists which is about to blow up in the most incredible way as we start to build up what we are doing in there with the official launch. We've had that group already operational for a little bit of time but now we are officially launching. Chris: What you are going to want to do is make sure you join us in the group. You'll obviously get a lot of access to everything when we are going live on Monday. Plus, you're going to get everything else that we start putting in there as well. Katrina Ruth: Post it all in there. We will do a live stream as well. Chris: On Monday, we will be putting everything together for you. Katrina Ruth: Why won't it let me out of this comment. I was just going to add a note saying, we are already telling you that anyway. I was going to say be in the group to get first information or whatever but we have already told you that. It's so exciting. I think we have said everything haven't we? Chris: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: It's such an honour to be able to share this. Chris: We are so excited. Katrina Ruth: We are joking around and having a good time obviously as you should in business and life. In all seriousness, this is just the most incredible product in the world. I have desire to have my own company or supplement brand for over 10 years. I was a personal trainer for 13 years. How long were you a trainer? Chris: 11. Katrina Ruth: Right, so there you go. 24 years of personal training experience between us. Both of us were so committed to our education and growth. That's how we met. Just going to some of the best nutrition and hormone, strength training and that stuff. I think a lot of trainers are really committed to a standard of excellence. We both thought it would be super cool to have your own supplement company but I looked into it and saw that some people were just buying stuff and putting there own labels on it. Chris: There's a lot of charlotons out there and there's a lot of liars. The scary thing was actually getting into the business now- Katrina Ruth: This took us two years. It wasn't the easy way it was the right way. Chris: It's scary how many people are lying about their products. There's an outpour of quality. A lot of stuff is getting manufactured through China, the sourcing. The manufacturing gradiance is really bad. What they are saying is actually is in the product is simply not there as well. The actual potency of their raw and effective ingredients in there is just not there. Chris: There's a lot of lies. That was one thing for me, is that I want to create something that's really bloody good. So when Kat and I came together, we saw this fusion of what it is we can do and how we can actually create something that's so much easier for people to use and combine it all. As we said earlier, it's not about just the supplements by itself, it's far from that. It's about putting everything together and giving it to you on a silver platter so that you can move forward. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. Chris: Simple. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. You said it all. I'm so excited. I'm also excited to be in business with this guy because we have known each other for so long that you just know how someone is and who they are in business, in life, what their values are. I couldn't think of anyone better to go into business with. Katrina Ruth: I'm such a solid person in so much of what I do. I have my own companies and Chris has his own companies. Now, it's just an incredible thing to come together with a close friend and create a product that's such an incredible quality and be able to share it with the world. I feel like this is a 10 year plus dream that is coming to life for me in terms of having my own supplement company and to be in partnership that shares that vision obviously. Does the work. Comes back to you and supports you. I could go on and on all day. Katrina Ruth: Get in the Facebook group. The comment is pinned there. Get into our free Facebook community. We will be dropping links on Monday. We will be dropping the deal on Monday. We will do a live stream together on Monday. Don't know what time yet but we will announce that obviously. Chris: Exactly. Make sure to join the group so you get access to everything. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. Chris: Drop a comment here as well. I will comment back here when we go live on Monday and let you know. We will be open for a couple of days next week but then we will close it off. It will really just be a limited time for those people who want to get in on the ground floor to jump on board. It's going to be freaking amazing so that's all. That's the whole story. Katrina Ruth: Beautiful. Chris: Alright! Katrina Ruth: I'm so excited that I'll go away. Chris: You're so excited that you'll go away? You may go away. Katrina Ruth: Alright. Chris: Peace. Katrina Ruth: We are going to go. Have an amazing, epic rest of your day. We will see you on Monday and we will be sharing how you can get this incredible product. Katrina Ruth: Oh shit, I've spilled it everywhere. There it is again! Sending you love! Don't forget...life's now, press play.

Trader George Rolleston on what he learned from studying with Stock Market Wizards Mark D Cook and Mark Minervini. Plus find out whether Chris Tate thinks trading is a hobby and hear from Louise Bedford about ‘your success map’. Mindpower – Louise Bedford What is your success map? What does success look like for you? There is inspiration found in looking outward and if you see greatness in others you can emulate the inspiration. Sometimes comparing yourself to other traders can inspire healthy growth. Look admire emulate.  That is the formula. A Little Trading – Chris Tate Can you treat trading like a hobby or do you need to dive in from the beginning? According to Chris: Have you ever met a neurosurgeon who you would trust to operate on your head who treated neurosurgery as a hobby? Hear this segment for more. George Rolleston From playing share trading competitions as a five year old with his brother, George has been in the markets professionally for over 15 years. He studied under two of the great Stock Market Wizards – Mark D Cook and Mark Minervini. In this interview we discuss: What George learnt from each Stock Market Wizard His trading methods and the power of finding fundamental, technical and cyclical patterns in the markets The importance of only looking at the price action and not buying into stories around stocks When to know to be fully invested in the markets or in cash. To find out more about George go to: www.suubee.com

In an age where data passes quicker than the salt and social/business platforms are flooded with a broad range of valuable information, it’s easy to get overwhelmed. Enter Brian Harman and Stephanie Taglianetti; cousins by blood and entrepreneurs by right. After years of “way too much stuff” in their feeds, it was time to create ‘something’ that consolidates info and facilitates the passing of relevant content. GET ON THE LIST AND BE THE FIRST TO READ THE BOOK!   In this episode of 5 O’Clock Hustle, we drop the knowledge to help you identify the problem that your business can solve, understand and leverage your strengths in a team setting (family or not) and balance your content to properly engage your audience. Listen up to get an under-the-hood look at Brian and Stephanie’s inspiration, process and learnings that will no doubt lead to huge successes for their consulting services and new book, "How to Avoid a HUGE Leadersh*t" #BMHallmark. #KnowYourAudience #LeverageMakesYouRich If you would like to learn more about Brain and Stephanie and their company BMHallmark visit their website at www.bmhallmark.com. Additional Links: Article Brian wrote about Dre and Chris Have a question for the guests or hosts?  You can leave a comment right here in the comment section. Thanks for listening to the episode. If you enjoyed this episode please leave us a review on iTunes. Reviewers are automatically entered to win an official 5 O'Clock Hustle T-Shirt, that's a $35.00 value absolutely free!  Share this episode and your 5 O'Clock Hustle experiences on social media with #5OH.    

Matt and Chris walk a mile in the shoes of the average American college student as they stop by the truly filthy home of guest Chris Monroe and his 23 closest roommates for their second episode recorded on location in the Sandy Egg. Plus: the epic conclusion to the Matt and Chris Have a Time Machine saga! (RIGHT CLICK TO DOWNLOAD .MP3)

Field recording of a Bloomsbury Fitness gym class Recorded 9 November, 2012 in stereo on Zoom H4N (with kind permission of Bloomsbury Fitness and instructor, Chris) Have you ever stopped to listen to the sounds around UCL? This series of 'fly-on-the-wall' field recordings around UCL capture some of the university's ambient sounds, such as footsteps, brief moments of conversations and the hum of air conditioning in the background. Do you have suggestions of other locations around UCL? Let us know. Or, better yet, if you have a good-quality mic for field recordings, send in some of your own tracks from around UCL. Email Rob for more info, r.eagle@ucl.ac.uk UCL is consistently ranked as one of the world's top universities. Across all disciplines our faculties are known for their research-intensive approaches, academic excellence and engagement with global challenges. This is the basis of our world-renowned degree programmes. Visit us at ucl.ac.uk.

Justin Quizon from the Order of the Triad podcast stops by to talk about comic book conventions, comic book movies, and comic book books.  Plus, the debut of some bitchin' new transition tunes and the exciting conclusion to the Matt and Chris Have a Time Machine Winston Churchill story arc! (RIGHT CLICK TO DOWNLOAD .MP3)